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Commons Chamber

Volume 96: debated on Wednesday 1 August 1917

House of Commons

Wednesday, August 1, 1917

Private Business

Glasgow Boundaries Act (1912) Amendment Order Confirmation Bill (by Order),

Consideration deferred till Friday.

National Expenditure

Special Report brought up, and read.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 125.]

Trinidad

Copy presented of Rule made by the Governor in Executive Council relative to the Prison Dietary Scale [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Army

Copy presented of List of Exceptions to the Army Regulations as to Pay, Non-effective Pay, and Allowances sanctioned during the year 1916–17 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Rules for Military Detention Barracks and Military Prisons, Amendments [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Colonial Reports (Annual)

Copy presented of Colonial Report, No. 923 (Hong Kong, Report for 1916) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Military Hospitals, India

asked the Secretary of State for India whether any steps are being taken to improve the military hospitals in India and to raise the scale of medical equipment for native troops?

The whole question of hospitals in India is being carefully examined, and the Government of India state that there has already been great progress. It has been decided to introduce the station hospital system for Indian troops. The Government of India fully realise the urgent need of improving the medical arrangements.

Royal Navy

Flag List (Promotion)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Board will recognise the principle that the present exclusive system of promotion by seniority to the Flag List is detrimental to the interests of the Service, and that. it should be open to the Admiralty, when war services have shown abilities for high command, to promote at least one in four captains by selection?

The present system of promotion to the Flag List cannot properly be described as exclusively by seniority, as captains whom it is decided not to employ further after promotion to Flag rank are retired at the discretion of the Admiralty immediately on promotion to the rank of Rear-Admiral. This system is considered preferable, in the general interests of the Service, to that of selection even to the limited extent proposed by my hon. and gallant Friend. It must be remembered that the Admiralty have the power of conferring the status of Commodore upon captains of special ability and of appointing them to positions which might otherwise require the rank of a Flag officer—a power which has been freely exercised during the War.

Will the right; hon. Gentleman represent to the Board the injury which is inflicted upon the country when an officer of great ability like Commodore Sir Reginald Tyrwhitt cannot be promoted to Flag rank except in his turn by seniority?

I cannot be presumed to accept that proposition, but certainly the representation shall be made.

Engine-Room Artificers' Class

asked if it is intended to increase the pay of the work- ing engineers (engine-room artificer class), with the object of bringing the pay of this class more equal to the rates which obtain in civil employment by workmen of the same trades as those enlisted in the Royal Navy as engine-room artificers?

The engine-room artificer class are paid from 5s. 6d. a day - on entry as acting engine-room artificer, 4th class, to Vs. 6d. a day as chief engine-room artificer, 1st class. To that has to be added separation allowances, allowances when in charge of machinery, additional pay in respect of good conduct badges, working pay, etc., especially when employed in submarines; rations, messing allowances, disablement or service pensions for life, with pensions to widows and orphans in the event of death in the Service. Certain questions relating to messing allowances and hospital stoppages affecting these and all other ratings are still under consideration.

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can extend the operations of the Greenwich Hospital augmentation to chief and engine-room artificers, so that these may receive the addition to their pensions at the age of fifty-five?

Chief and engine-room artificers are already eligible for the award of Greenwich Hospital age pensions under precisely the same conditions as other naval ratings, but I am afraid I cannot guarantee that every eligible man will receive an age pension at the age of fifty-five. Awards are made by the selection of those applicants (including chief and engine-room artificers) who have the strongest claims. I may add, generally, that during the last five years the number of age and increased age pensions in force has been increased by about 1,700; and the age at which applicants who may be considered to be in necessitous circumstances can be awarded age pensions has been reduced from about sixty-one to fifty-six. At the present time there are in force about 5,000 age pensions of 5d. a day and about 5,400 increased age pensions of 9d. a day.

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, seeing that the Admiralty is advertising for engineer lieutenants (temporary), he can state why more promotions to this rank cannot be given to chief artificer engineers?

The duties for which temporary engineer sub-lieutenants and engineer lieutenants were asked for in recent advertisements differ from those which would be carried out by engineer lieutenants promoted from chief artificer engineers. The requirements of engineer lieutenants promoted from chief artificer engineers and of mates (E) promoted from artificer engineers and engine-room artificer ratings are constantly in view, and the necessary promotions are made from time to time as such requirements arise. I may say that since the War broke out there have been thirty promotions to engineer lieutenant for long service, forty-eight for specially good service during the War, and one for specific gallantry in action. In addition, there have been 115 promotions to mate (E) and thirty-one of these have been promoted from mate (E) to acting engineer lieutenant.

Naval Pensioners

asked whether it is intended to consider the case of naval pensioners with a view to giving these old servants of the State an increase to their pensions?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer (of which I am sending him a copy) given by me to a question put by the hon. and gallant Member for Portsmouth on this subject on the 7th March last.

Civil Instructors, Osborne and Dartmouth (Bonus)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty the reasons for withholding the last war bonus given to the dockyard workmen from the civil instructors employed at the Osborne and Dartmouth training colleges for naval cadets?

The war bonus referred to was limited to shipbuilding and engineering establishments, and did not apply to the colleges referred to, which are not within that category. The grant of a further war bonus to workpeople outside shipbuilding and engineering establishments has been under consideration, and an announcement to the men affected will be made this week.

Dockyard Employes (Wages)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the 10s. 6d. per week paid to Admiralty employés at a certain northern base as hard-lying money is not included by the authorities when calculating the payment for overtime worked; whether he is aware that the Income Tax authorities are including this weekly amount in the assessment of such employés for Income Tax; and, if it is correct to include this amount in the assessment, whether he will issue instructions to the dockyard authorities that any weekly sum so paid shall be included in the computation of overtime rates?

Hard-lying money is granted as compensation for the discomfort of living under unusual and irksome conditions. It is not regarded as part of a man's wages, and therefore it is properly excluded in the calculation of overtime. On the other hand, as a continuous money payment it is subject to Income Tax.

Housing at Rosyth Naval Base

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware that Messrs. Holloway, the contractors for the erection of houses at Rosyth, are employing a number of Army Reserve munition workers; that they are compelling these men to work ten hours per day; that the district hours are nine per day; that the firm refuse to pay overtime rate for the extra hour worked; and that this is a violation of the conditions under which these men enrolled as Army Reserve munition workers; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?

Messrs. Holloway, who are erecting houses at Rosyth for dockyard workmen, are employing among their civilian workmen a certain number of Army Reserve munition workers, who recently objected to work more than nine hours per day. The matter was referred to the Ministry of Munitions Local Investigation Officer, as a result of which these men are now working ten hours per day, the hours observed in the Inverkeithing district. The question of the number of hours, however, which should constitute an ordinary working week on this contract has now been brought to the notice of Sir George Askwith by the civilian workmen's representatives.

Questions

Allies' Conference, Paris

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Serbia,, Roumania, and Greece were individually represented by direct representatives at the recent Paris Conference on Balkan problems?

asked whether the United States accepted the invitation to send a representative to the recent Paris Conference on Balkan problems; and, if not, what reason can be given for the absence of such representative?

The United States Government were invited to the Conference, but preferred not to accept the invitation. Their reasons for this decision are entirely the concern of the United States Government.

Serbia and Yugo-Slavs (Agreement)

asked whether the recent Paris Conference considered the agreement recently signed by M. Pashitch, Serbian Premier, and Dr. Trumbitch, on behalf of the Yugo-Slavs, by which agreement the establishment is contemplated of a Serbian kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, four times the population of the old Serbian kingdom; whether the approval of the Allies has been given to this agreement; and whether the aggrandisement of Serbia on the lines of this agreement is one of the objects for which this country is at war?

I see no reason for adding anything to the statements already made about the proceedings of the recent Conference at Paris.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is nothing in this question so important as the statement made by M. Pashitch himself; and can he not give us some information as to whether this most important agreement, signed by the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of our Ally, has been submitted to our Government?

I do not suggest for a moment that the document to which the hon. Member refers may not be a very important one. All I say is that the information already given to the Press about the proceedings of the Conference in Paris are all that I think it is desirable in the public interest should be given.

Alsace-Lorraine

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Foreign Office has any knowledge, officially or unofficially, of any agreement or understanding being reached between France and Russia by which, in case of an Allied victory, Germany is to be deprived of any territory except Alsace-Lorraine, on the west bank of the Rhine?

Assuming that the statement which M. Ribot made yesterday in the French Chamber of Deputies is correct, to which I presume the right hon. Gentleman refers, does it not mean that it is proposed to take territory inhabited for generations by people—

That concerns the French Chamber. I am afraid we have got quite enough to do to look after our own.

Dalmatia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can now state whether there is any understanding or agreement by which, in case of an Allied victory, Italy is to obtain possession of any part of Dalmatia?

I have nothing to add to the reply returned to the hon. Member's question of the 4th of last month.

Military Service

Position of American Citizens

asked whether American male citizens between the ages of twenty-one and thirty residing in Great Britain are under the alternative obligation of registering themselves at the office of an American Consul for the purposes of the United States Selective Service Act of 18th May last, or offering themselves for enlistment in the British Army or Navy?

No, Sir. United States citizens in this country are under no such legal obligation, but arrangements have been made for any patriotic United States citizens who desire to do so to register at the United States Consulate-General.

Political Association (Soldiers)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, in view of the complete alteration in the composition of the British Army and of the fact that it is proposed to grant votes to soldiers as soldiers, the War Cabinet have arrived at any decision with regard to cancelling No. 451 of the King's Regulations which deprives soldiers of the right of political association among themselves and also of the right of attending political meetings in uniform, this latter part of the Regulation being already disregarded with the connivance of the military authorities?

I can at present add nothing to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend on the 25th and my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds (East) on the 26th of last month.

Conscientious Objectors

asked the number of conscientious objectors now in civil and military prisons, respectively?

I assume that the hon. Member refers in the question to detention barracks. Returns involving a great deal of labour have been called for from all detention barracks in this country. They are not yet complete, and I think that it would be best to await their completion. I have no information as to civil prisoners, and that part of the question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

asked the Prune Minister (1) whether he will cause a list to be kept of all men exempted from military serive on the ground of conscientious objection, giving their ages at the date of exemption and their place of residence, in order that employers who have signified their intention of giving no employment to these shirkers after the War may be assisted in their endeavours; (2) whether he will cause the names of all men exempted from military service on the ground of conscientious objection, their ages at date of exemption, and their places of residence, to be posted in prominent positions in the different localities into which the country is divided, so that employers of labour who have signified their intention of giving no employment to men who have thus shirked their duty to the country may be assisted in their endeavours?

The Government are unable to adopt the course suggested by my hon. Friend.

Are we to understand that the Government refuse altogether to assist those patriotic men, the employers?

The particular course suggested does not commend itself to the Government.

asked the Home Secretary if an application from John Frederick Clarke, a conscientious objector, now in Newcastle Prison, has been received for permission to be placed under the Home Office scheme of work; and, seeing that this man has been passed by the Central Tribunal, will he say why the application has not yet been granted?

This man declined to accept the conditions of the investigation of his case by the Central Tribunal, and they accordingly made no recommendation. But he has now asked to be allowed to work under the Home Office scheme, and I am making arrangements for a consideration of this and similar cases.

Private Brightmore

what action has been taken arising out of the case of James Brightmore?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement which I made on the 23rd July.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War what is the result of the court-martial on James Brightmore; and whether he is satisfied that Brightmore's health is not impaired?

It will be impossible for me to state the result of the court-martial on James Brightmore until it has been promulgated and the proceedings have been received in this Department. My hon. Friend will doubtless see the result of the court-martial in the daily papers long before I shall be in a position to give him the information he desires. I made special inquiry as to the state of James Brightmore's health, and from the reports I have received it does not appear that his health is impaired.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he is aware of the feeling of the soldiers and the civil population at the action of the War Office in relieving Major Grimshaw and other officers of their commands without their having been granted an opportunity to reply to the charges of ill-treatment of a conscientious objector at the Cleethorpes Camp; and will he at once order the reinstatement of these officers pending any inquiries, and so allay the feeling aroused against the War Office authorities?

I understand that these officers have had every opportunity of replying to the charges of ill-treatment of the conscientious objectors under their command. I do not think that any further inquiry is necessary, and the decision arrived at must be adhered to.

Russian Subjects in Great Britain

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that certain Russian subjects, having previously offered to enlist voluntarily in the British Army, were found medically unfit, but are now under some doubt as to their position under the Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Act; and whether those in that position ought to give to the recruiting officer, or to the police, or to their Consuls, or to the Home Office, or to the Local Government Board, or to any other authority the proofs in their possession that they have been rejected as unfit for military service?

Russian subjects who are resident in Great Britain and who do not elect to return to Russia come within the operation of the Military Service Acts, 1916 and 1917, and as such will be dealt with in the same way as British subjects, and those who have offered themselves for enlistment and been rejected will be sent the statutory notice under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917.

asked the Prime Minister, with reference to the recent agreement between His Majesty's Government and the Provisional Government as to the reciprocal liability of their respective subjects to military service, whether the period given for Russian subjects who desire to return to Russia terminates on 9th August; if so, whether it can be extended, particularly in view of the closing of the Russian frontiers; whether, in the case of those returning to Russia, facilities can be given for their dependants accompanying them; and whether Russian subjects serving satisfactorily with the British forces for the prescribed period will be accorded facilities for naturalisation without payment of fees and without completing the statutory term of five years' residence in this country?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second and third parts in the negative. As to the fourth part of the question, the statutory conditions of naturalisation must be complied with, but no fee will be charged.

In view of the changed conditions, would the Government consider the advisability of introducing legislation to do away with the five years' residence in the case of those who are serving in the Army?

Farmer's Appeal

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that in the case of a farmer who joined the Army, leaving his father to look after the farm and the father has since been accidentally killed and there is no one to look after the farm, the military authorities refuse to release the farmer notwithstanding the request by the Board of Agriculture that he should be released, and that the only ground of their refusal is that the man is fit for general service; and will he say if it is to be understood that only men who are not fit are to be released for farming?

If my hon. Friend refers to the case which he recently brought to my notice, I am having it reconsidered, and will let him know the result as soon as possible.

Wounded Civil Servants

asked the Prime Minister if wounded Civil servants who qualified in the last second division examination will be appointed and not be dubbed unsuccessful, seeing that 300 or more qualifieds, but so-called unsuccessfuls, have been appointed; and, in view of the fact that precedents exist where all qualifieds have been called, and even top failures, whether it is the intention of the Government to compel these men, who are efficient and now in Government employ, to study again at the risk of a breakdown in health and to pass an examination that they have once qualified for?

The hon. Member's question would appear to be based on a misapprehension. The examination for second division clerkships is competitive and not qualifying. It is the practice to show as successful candidates up to the number of vacancies announced, but when the vacancies are extended at a time of pressure further appointments are offered so far as necessary to the remaining candidates in order. At the last examination appointments were offered down to the 470th candidate in order of merit, and any candidate above the 470th will be regarded as successful and entitled to an appointment, provided he can satisfy the usual inquiries when he is available for Civil duties.

Southern Rhodesia (Native Reserves)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the total number of natives of Southern Rhodesia occupying, respectively, the 5,000,000 acres of land which it is proposed to add to the reserves; and what is the number of natives occupying the 6,000,000 acres of land by which it is proposed to reduce the native reserves?

The figures are not available here, but I will ask the High Commissioner to furnish the best possible estimate.

asked whether ownership of land in Southern Rhodesia can only be obtained by the native inhabitants by money payment to the British South Africa Company; and, if so, will he state by virtue of what legal instrument or Act the native inhabitants of these territories surrendered or were deprived of their indigenous titles to ownership of land?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I returned to a question about native ownership on the 8th May, to which I can only add that until the decision of the Privy Council is given it is not possible to speak of titles to land in Southern Rhodesia with any certainty.

Will the Chartered Company be allowed to deal with these territories before the decision of the Privy Council is given?

I am not aware of what precisely the hon. Gentleman means by the Chartered Company dealing with these territories, but if he puts down a question stating precisely the information which he requires I will endeavour to answer it.

I refer to the territories regarding which you have just given an answer in reply to Question No. 18.

I should like to have notice as to what precisely the hon. Member means by permitting the Chartered Company to deal with these territories?

Mesopotamia Commission

asked whether the officers blamed in the Report of the Commission on Mesopotamia will be tried by court-martial; if so, whether the charges have yet been formulated, what those charges are, and whether the trials will take place in this country and be open to the public?

The Army Council have called upon the officers subject to their jurisdiction to furnish written explanations of the statements contained in this Report relating to their conduct of their official duties. On receipt of those explanations, the Council will consider what further action is to be taken in each case.

Soldiers' Leave

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the men of the 19th Labour Company, Army Service Corps, France, have received leave at the intervals of six months in. accordance with the promise made prior to enlistment; and if he will state whether any of the officers of the company have not received the leave to which they are entitled?

I will make inquiries into the matter brought to notice by my hon. Friend and will communicate with him, as soon as I am in a position to do so.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War why the l/4th King's Shropshire Light Infantry, which arrived in this country at the end of last week, was immediately ordered to embark for France; whether, taking into consideration that this battalion of the Territorial Force had nearly three years' service in the Far East, he will explain why before proceeding to France all ranks were not granted leave in order to visit their homes and families; if he is aware that the officers proceeded to France without the necessary kit for service in that country; and if arrangements will be made that units or drafts coming from the East shall not be sent to France without first being granted reasonable leave?

The services of these men were urgently required in France, and it was merely by accident that they touched at a British port. I am afraid that the adoption of my hon. Friend's suggestion would mean considerable delay before the services of units could be utilised on transfer, and would-lead to increased use of shipping.

In view of the dissatisfaction felt owing to what has occurred will my hon. Friend consider the question of making representations that this battalion should have leave?

Is the hon. Member aware that this battalion has been practically all over the world, that it has been in Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, Ceylon, and South Africa, and that none of these officers or men have received any leave for three years, and will he take that in consideration?

Certainly all these facts, which have quite properly been mentioned, will be taken into consideration in any representations which will be made. I should like to assure the House that the War Office is sympathetic with regiments which have seen consecutive service for such long periods, but the case of men who have been in France, then in Gallipoli, then in Egypt, and then in Mesopotamia is even harder.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that, when battalions or men have been on service for a number of years, and when they arrive in this country, they will have leave before they are sent to France?

I cannot promise that, because if a certain battalion is asked for for urgent purposes in France I could not promise to delay individuals of that battalion.

Did these men go to France with their Colonial kits, or did they receive European kits before going there?

I cannot answer that question because it was not put to me definitely. All I know is that this particular battalion was to have gone straight on to France, but by a mere accident it had to call at a British port. Otherwise it should have gone straight to France.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the hardship inflicted on soldiers on short leave by the non-running of the mail train on Sunday morning from Bangor to Pwllheli, whereby soldiers are stranded at Bangor, often without money and without any means of continuing their journey to their homes twenty or thirty miles away, and can he see his way to arrange to run a motor train for the convenience of the soldiers on leave?

Representations on this point have been made to the Board of Trade, but, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, it has been necessary to discontinue Sunday services on many branch lines throughout the country. I am, however, in communication with the War Office on the subject.

Military Punishments

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is-aware that Private Ernest Richard Bowyer, a lad who enlisted at sixteen, overstayed his leave for forty-eight hours, and was confined to barracks without pay for one month and given No. 1 field punishment, has now been back at his unit some seven weeks; and, seeing that Bowyer has not yet received a penny of his pay and has even been denied soap with which to wash his clothes, will he say what action he proposes to take?

Under recent instructions, which have just been issued, Bowyer will be discharged on account of his age With regard to the award of field punishment No. 1, contrary to the provisions of Army Order 340 of 1914, steps have been taken by the General Officer commanding to ensure compliance with the Order in future and to inquire into the circumstances under which the punishment was improperly awarded. My hon. Friend in his question suggests that Bowyer's only fault was to have overstayed his leave for forty-eight hours. I must point out that it was by no means the only offence of this nature which he committed. In the preceding month he had been absent without leave for five days, and had also broken out of barracks when a defaulter, for which he had been suitably punished.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, in view of the hardships to which the troops were subjected in Mesopotamia and Salonika and the recent action of the Government on the Report of the Mesopotamia Commission, the Government will order the reconsideration, with a view to mitigation, of the numerous severe sentences passed on soldiers for breaches of discipline in Mesopotamia or Salonika?

I am not aware that there have been numerous severe sentences passed on soldiers for breaches of discipline in Mesopotamia or Salonika, and I am not prepared to question the discretion of General Officers Commanding who may have confirmed severe sentences. I might add for the information of the hon. Member that forty-four soldiers have recently arrived in this country from Salonika undergoing sentences of penal servitude and imprisonment. These men were sent to this country by the General Officer commanding in the interests of discipline, but at the same time he forwarded a request that they should be released on suspension of sentence after having undergone a few months of their sentence. This procedure will be carried out in due course.

I am very glad to hear it. I would ask the hon. Member has his attention been called to the case of a boy of nineteen in Mesopotamia who is undergoing a sentence of ten years' penal servitude for falling asleep at his post?

The case has been already mentioned in the House. I hope that it will be one of those cases that will come under the suspension.

Army Horses and Mules

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether upwards of a quarter of a million Army horses and mules have died during the War; (2) whether 33,000 horses and mules purchased in America have died while awaiting shipment; if any inquiry has been held into the causes of death under those conditions; if so, what conclusion was arrived at; (3) whether some horses or mules purchased in America for Army purposes have been found to be over thirty years of age, and some have died on the gangway at the port of shipment under the exertion of walking on board; (4) what was the average monthly percentage of mortality among horses and mules of the British Expeditionary Force last winter; what steps have been taken to decrease it; (5) whether many horses of the British Expeditionary Force last winter were clipped at the base before being sent to the front and picketed out; and whether a large number died in consequence?

I am glad to have this opportunity of making a public statement with reference to an article which appeared recently in a weekly paper, and which has been quoted by other papers and from which my hon. and gallant Friend has evidently taken the figures upon which he desires information.

I will take his five questions together and reply to them. It is true that upwards of 250,000 horses and mules have died or been destroyed or cast and sold in the various theatres of war in the last three years. This is roundly 25 per cent. of the total numbers acquired by the Army, and the wastage works out at less than 1½ per cent. per month on the monthly strength since the outbreak of the War, or 16 per cent. per annum. Commercial firms estimate annual replacements at 20 per cent., and I am informed that the wastage of two of the largest railway companies' stables last year were 19i per cent, and 17½ per cent. respectively. The figures of wastage in our Army in the three years of this War are, therefore, extraordinarily small, and have never been approached in any campaign in history.

The loss of horses purchased in America before shipment has been 5 per cent. and the loss on sea 1 per cent. Every animal bought in America has passed through the stockyards and been exposed to infection of influenza, or what in that country is known as "shipping fever." Immediately after purchase they are removed to large, well-equipped depots, where they live under the healthiest possible conditions. A large percentage, however, develop influenza or pneumonia in a more or less severe form, and, in spite of veterinary care, the percentage stated have died. When we consider the epidemic to be combatted among freshly bought horses in America, e.g., gangrenous dermatitis, pastular stomatitis, influenza, pneumonia, and strangles— when we add to these risks the distance travelled, the changes of climate and altitude, railway accidents, and attempted poisoning by enemy agents, and when we remember the numbers handled, we can only marvel that the loss has been so small.

It is chiefly due to the system of keeping our purchases till "salted" or clear of infection that we have attained the remarkably small figure of 1 per cent. loss on board ship, which is ¼ of the voyage loss during the South African campaign. These figures are believed to compare more than favourably with the losses that have occurred both on land and sea among animals bought by our Allies in the same market. No animals bought in America or elsewhere have been found to be over thirty years of age, nor have any died of exhaustion on the gangway at the port of shipment. Such could only have been the case were our representatives in America incompetent or negligent, and they are neither. The average monthly percentage of wastage in France during the six months, October to March inclusive, was:

Can the hon. Gentleman answer question No. 35 about horses clipped at the base last winter?

May I ask whether it has not been ascertained that the percentage of deaths appears to be much smaller than was apprehended, whether this percentage is not due to the fact that in many instances horses, unsuited to their particular job in the Army, were largely used, such as extremely heavy horses that could not stand the shortage of food and exposure; and whether experience has not proved that the best horses for the Army or the artillery are Irish horses?

Is my hon. Friend aware that mares in foal have been purchased and that they have foaled on the voyage; and can he say what useful purpose is served by mares in foal or foals at foot being shipped?

I have no knowledge of that. Perhaps my hon. Friend will give notice of a question, and I will make inquiries.

Enemy Air Raids

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether there was any person who lost his life in the defence of London in the air raid on 13th June; and, if so, can he state his name and rank?

The usual custom is to mention the names of casualties, if any occur, in the casualty lists, but not to say anything of the service on which they occurred, and I am afraid that no exception can be made in this case.

Migration of Aliens from East London

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware of the migration of the male alien population of East London owing to supposed danger from enemy aircraft and the approach of compulsory military service or deportation; and have the police authorities in those districts to which these aliens are fleeing instructions to take steps to pre-vent a possible evasion of service, and have instructions also been issued to the authorities at all ports of embarkation for Ireland?

I am aware that a number of aliens resident in East London are removing to other localities. This migration will not relieve these persons from any liability to military service to which they may be subject. The police will keep in touch with them under the provisions of the Aliens' Restriction Order, and precautions have been taken against their embarking for Ireland.

Munitions

Volunteer Workers from Colonies

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether volunteer munition workers who have come from the Colonies to this country are liable to be called up under the Military Service Acts?

I must refer my hon. Friend to the answer which was given to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester (East), on the 14th May last. Instructions dealing with the subject of men who have been brought to this country from the Overseas Dominions, for the purpose of working on munitions, will shortly be issued.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that volunteer munition workers who have come to this country from South Africa do not receive subsistence allowance; that they have to pay Income Tax; and whether he will exempt from the Income Tax an amount equal to the subsistence allowance paid to home volunteer workers?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to a question asked by him on the 2nd April last. I am sending the hon. Member a copy.

Food Supplies

Potatoes

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture what were the financial results of the Government's action in the provision and sale of potatoes for seeding purposes?

I am not at present able to give the hon. Member the information he desires. The number of transactions was very large, and affected numerous local authorities and individuals. Consequently the accounts are taking much time to settle, but when final figures are available I will see that they are sent to the hon. Member.

National Farmers' Union

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been called to the resolution of the National Farmers' Union that the members consider it their duty in the public interest to point out that the reported restricted price of 60s. per cwt. for beef for the month of January is much less than the cost of production, and, unless the Food Controller restricts the prices of feeding stuffs pro rata —feeding cakes are now 300 per cent. above pre-war prices—no farmer will or can produce beef during next winter at the price mentioned, and also desire to point out that the prices fixed for the last two months of 1917 are also below what such cattle cost to produce; and can he give any information as to whether feeding cakes are likely to be reduced in price; and if so, when?

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the statements made by the Food Controller that the maximum prices fixed for meat from September to January next will enable the farmer to realise his cattle without serious loss, and that steps are being taken to determine the margin between the price of cattle and the price of beef which will yield a fair but not unreasonable profit to the dealer or butcher; and, if so, whether the difference of the treatment accorded to the farmer and to the dealer or butcher has the sanction of the Government?

I have been asked to reply to these questions. I regret that I can add nothing to the answer given yesterday to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury.

Has the hon. Gentleman called the attention of the Minister of Munitions to the high cost of feeding stuffs, and will he take him into consultation with regard to the matter?

I am not aware whether that has been done. I think the hon. Gentleman will find in the reply a full answer.

Seeing that the Food Controller has determined to fix the price of beef, may I ask what steps he has taken to ensure a supply by reducing the price of the material that is necessary to feed cattle?

The only answer I can give at the moment is that the Food Controller is in almost daily consultation with the representatives from Ireland.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that linseed cake, cotton cake, meal bran, and pollard, used for feeding cattle, have increased from 250 to 300 per cent. over pre-war prices?

asked if it is necessary to get any permit to buy or sell, by a dealer, the crop of damsons now growing?

No permit is necessary for dealings in damsons. The price, however, is regulated by the Stone Fruit (Jam Manufacturers) Prices Order, 1917.

Sugar and Beer

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (1) if he can take steps in the special circumstances of the case to authorise Mr. Owen Egan, of Moylough, Ballinasloe, county Galway, to obtain supplies of sugar and beer for sale on his business premises which he purchased from the Irish Bankruptcy Court for over £800 in the month of December, 1915, the premises having been closed and the business suspended during the preceding eleven months of that year; (2) if he is aware that up to 30th June, 1917, the guardians of Ballinasloe Poor Law Union were able to procure only 2 cwts. 3 qrs. of sugar for the use of officers and inmates of Ballinasloe workhouse, and of patients in the union hospital, although the average annual supplies hitherto have been 40 cwts., and that the medical officer complains that sugar is urgently required, especially in the hospital; will he have steps taken to enable the guardians to procure the necessary supplies forthwith; (3) if he can take steps to enable Mr. J. Cogavin, of Lawrencetown, Ballinasloe, licensed publican and provision merchant, to obtain supplies of sugar and beer, the business premises which were purchased by Mr. Cogavin in January last for £620, having been closed during the greater portion of the year 1915, and having regard to the fact that Mr. Cogavin's business and means of livelihood will be absolutely ruined if he is not permitted to procure reasonable supplies?

The distribution of sugar has hitherto been based on supplies received by traders, or their predecessors, during the year 1915. A new system of distribution is under consideration and will be introduced shortly. The points raised by the hon. Member will be borne in mind. The distribution of beer, in accordance with the provisions of the Output of Beer (Restrictions) Act, as applied by the Intoxicating Liquor (Output and Delivery) Order, is similarly based in general upon the supplies received in 1915. It is not thought practicable to vary this basis in individual cases.

Is there any good reason why a poor man is to be ruined by Regulations about which he knew nothing when he was purchasing this property?

I can only say that these Regulations are amongst the incidental hardships of war.

Should there not be exceptions to these Regulations in cases of hardship like this?

Bread

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what is the estimated cost per loaf to the Exchequer by the sale of bread at 9d. per loaf; and at what price should wheat be bought in order to sell at 9d. per leaf with a fair profit to all concerned in the manufacture and sale?

I have already stated that the cost of the loaf depends so closely upon the price of imported wheat that I cannot give any estimate of the expenditure likely to be incurred. It is estimated that in order to secure the production of a 9d. loaf without loss to the Exchequer wheat ought to be bought at or about 61s. per quarter. This estimate, however, is subject to revision.

Cheese and Sugar

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (1) whether cheese retailers now have often to pay for short weight when supplied with control cheese by the Food Controller, also loss of weight of bondage, shrinkage of cheese cut up on their counters, breaks on scale, paper, delivery, working expenses, loss owing to increase of the sale of small quantities owing to enhanced prices, and consequent increase of breaks; whether 2d. per lb. gross profit under these circumstances leaves any net profit to the retailer; what remedy does he propose; (2) whether he is aware that grocers in all parts of the country are complaining that control cheese is sent out averaging 3½ per cent. short weight, after allowing for the 3½ per cent. quoted by the Controller for shrinkage; whether he is aware that this is equivalent to a loss to the grocer of about one halfpenny the pound; whether, seeing that the Controller does not allow any deduction in payment for this shortage, he will explain why he insists on being paid for goods he does not supply; whether the police will be instructed to prosecute him for selling short weight where proper evidence is offered; and, if not, whether grocers will be allowed to pass on the short weight they receive to their customers?

My hon. Friend has requested me to reply to these questions. The shrinkage allowance on Australian and New Zealand cheese at first proposed —namely, 3½ per cent.—was based on the experience of the trade, but in view of the special circumstances attending the present issue of such cheese it has been found necessary to increase the allowance to 6 per cent. With this concession the Board of Trade believe that the margin allowed to the retailer is sufficient.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what arrangements the Food Controller proposes to make to provide a satisfactory system of distribution of sugar throughout the United Kingdom; and what local machinery he intends to set up for this purpose?

At the request of the Food Controller, the President of the Local Government Board and the Secretary for Scotland are forwarding this week to the local authorities in Great Britain a summary of the new scheme of sugar distribution which will be brought into force as soon as possible. I am arranging to send the hon. Member a copy of the relevant papers.

Certainly. The provisions regarding sugar distribution apply to Ireland as well as elsewhere.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been directed to the number of cases in which fruit growers who have made application in the prescribed form for sugar for preserving their fruit have received no sugar; and whether he will take steps to see that all. applications which have been so far overlooked will be dealt with without further delay?

As I have already informed the House, all sugar imported for the specific purpose of the domestic preservation of fruit has been allocated. It is impossible to reconsider particular applications.

Food Condemned

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has inquired into the alleged waste of food that has occurred during the past few months from lack of adequate transport and storage facilities; whether, in addition to the quantities of bacon that have already been announced as having been condemned in London, quantities of fish, potatoes, and margarine have been similarly lost; and will he say what measures to prevent any further losses of food and waste of tonnage will be adopted?

Every effort is being; made to secure delivery of bacon and other perishable foodstuffs on such terms as will avoid a repetition of recent losses by accelerating dispatch by sea and rail. Delay in some cases, however, is unavoidable.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been drawn to the report of the medical officer of health for Stepney in which he states that he has condemned 100 tons of fish, 365 tons of bacon, and 701 tons of potatoes as unfit for human food; whether these goods were imported on steamers from Holland; whether a quantity of margarine was also spoilt on the same steamers; whether any of this food was bought and shipped by the British Government; what is the cause of it arriving in this country in such a condition; and what steps his Department propose to take to prevent a repetition of such goods being bought or shipped by Government Departments?

Owing to the inevitable delays occurring to steamers engaged in carrying perishable foodstuffs from Holland and other countries, considerable quantities of these foodstuffs have arrived in this country unfit for human consumption and have had to be destroyed. Every care is taken to ensure a speedy delivery, but the safety of the vessel and her crew must be considered first.

Distress in Serbia

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the distress which prevails among the civilian population in Serbia, and, seeing that in the matter of revictualling Serbia occupies a position exactly analogous to that of Belgium, will he say why her claims in this respect have hitherto been entirely disregarded by the Allied Governments; whether the Serbian Relief Fund has laid before His Majesty's Government a concrete scheme for the importation and distribution of foodstuffs in Serbia through the agency and under the control of a Swiss committee of the highest standing and of Swiss Federal officials, and, if so, will he say what reasons His Majesty's Government have for opposing such a scheme; whether he accepts in principle the sending of relief to the Serbian population through Switzerland; and, in that case, whether he will take prompt measures to remove the existing veto upon the importation of food into Serbia and to facilitate a proper scheme of relief subject to due guarantees of control?

The distress in Serbia and various suggestions for relief have repeatedly engaged the anxious consideration of the Allies. The position of Serbia is by no means analogous to that of Belgium. Prior to the War there were net exports of foodstuffs from Serbia valued at about two millions sterling, while in Belgium there were net imports of about twenty-three millions.

As regards Belgium, the Germans gave comprehensive guarantees, covering not only foodstuffs imported by the Relief Commission, but also the reservation of native foodstuffs for the Belgians

As regards Serbia, it has been impossible to secure similar guarantees, and the Austro-Hungarians and Bulgarians have requisitioned practically all native foodstuffs.

His Majesty's Government have several times declared their readiness to consider sympathetically any practical scheme for Serbian relief embodying essential precautions. No such scheme has yet been presented, and, so long as the hardships of the Serbians are chiefly due to the requisitions of the enemy, His Majesty's Government are unable to accept suggestions which appear only calculated to replace by imported supplies the rations now allowed by the enemy, who would therefore benefit directly to the extent of any such imports, without the position of the Serbian population being materially improved.

Neutral Shipping Sunk (Weekly Statement)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been directed to the fact that an excess error of 1,000,000 tons in the estimate of British, Allied, and neutral shipping sunk during each month by submarines and mines was accepted in the United States and was stated to have produced a scare; and whether he will now consent to issue, month by month, an exact statement of tonnage statistics and amend the weekly statistics with the view of giving better comparative information?

The form of the weekly statement was decided upon by the War Cabinet after very careful consideration, and it has been approved and adopted by the Allied Governments. As at present advised, it is not proposed to alter the form of the statement.

What is the objection to giving the tonnage statistics? The First Lord of the Admiralty gave us the statistics for February, and why cannot we have the tonnage statistics for every month, seeing that the German Government gives what purport to be accurate statistics, which are not accurate?

The subject has been very carefully considered by the Government, and has been the subject of discussion in this House. The figures given by the Germans are known to be inaccurate, but that does not alter our decision.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that yesterday one of the London papers—only one paper—published the average tonnage sinkings for several months past, and why should not the Government issue the figures officially, so that we may be sure they are accurate?

As I am not aware of the fact I cannot give any explanation. It does not follow that the figures given in the paper are more accurate than the German figures.

As we have never had an opportunity of debating this question, except in the Secret Session, when the First Lord of the Admiralty made his statement at the end of that sitting, I beg to give notice that I will call attention to the matter at the earliest opportunity.

Silver (Government Purchases)

asked the Prime Minister if he will state the present method of buying silver for Government purposes; and whether, in view of the dissatisfaction formerly expressed when the purchases for India were confined to a selected firm, he can see his way to so arrange that all Government purchases, either for home, Colonial, Indian, or other requirements, be made either through the Bank of England or by a committee of bankers to be appointed for the purpose?

In view of the high price of silver and in order to co-ordinate Government requirements, the present practice is for representatives of the Departments which require to purchase silver for their own use or for the use of Allied Governments, to meet once a week and settle, in consultation with the brokers, the total amount to be bought during the following week on Government account. This procedure has worked well, and I see no reason to alter it.

Enemy Aliens

asked the Prime Minister whether he will now take steps either to deport or intern all enemy subjects, or British subjects of enemy origin, who are still carrying on trade either directly or indirectly in this country; and if, as numbers of our enemies are still permitted not only to carry on their different businesses in numerous cases under various disguises but to increase such businesses at the expense and to the loss of British traders who have sacrificed their positions in order to fight for their country, he will take some immediate action in the matter?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. As regards enemy subjects, I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made in the Debate of the 14th February last, and to my replies to subsequent questions on the same subject. As regards British subjects of enemy origin, there is no power to deport British subjects and the only power of interning them is that conferred by Regulation 14 ( b ) of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, which has been exercised in proper cases.

Civil Populations (France and Belgium)

asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the sufferings of the French and Belgian civilian populations, which have been and are still being dragged from their homes and deported into Germany, he will consult with General Smuts as to the desirability of assisting the French and Belgian Governments to bring such effective pressure upon our enemies as will induce them to put an end to their present practice of deportation and slavery; and, failing repatriation and discontinuance of this particular practice, if he will sanction the immediate handing over to the Belgian Government of all enemy subjects now imprisoned, interned, or residing in any of the former German colonies in Africa and elsewhere so that they may be interned and made to work for the benefit of the Belgian people in the Belgian Congo under conditions similar to those imposed upon those French and Belgian subjects who have been deported into Germany?

The Government have given anxious consideration to the question of what can be done to minimise the atrocious sufferings to which the population of Belgium and the occupied districts of Northern France have been submitted by the enemy, and they would readily give to the Belgian and French Governments any support which they may desire, and which seems likely to be useful in securing better treatment for their countrymen in these territories.

Crop Restrictions Orders, 1917

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the consternation which has been caused among the agricultural community by the provisions of the 1917 Crop Restrictions Order, prohibiting any dealings in the 1917 crop without a permit from the Food Controller; and, seeing that resolutions are being passed by some of the agricultural executive committees stating that in their opinion this Order will tend entirely to destroy the confidence of the agricultural community in the Government, and will place insuperable difficulties in the way of the committee getting an increase of the acreage of arable land in the country, will he state whether steps will be taken to withdraw this Order?

It is hoped that the scheme for dealing with the 1917 crop will be issued this week, and it is thought that the fears of the agricultural community will prove unfounded.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the agricultural community were in any way consulted before this Order was made?

Ministry of Health

asked the Prime Minister whether he will set up a Commission charged with the duty of consolidating all existing laws affecting questions of public health, in anticipation of the establishment of a Ministry of Health?

The Government do not consider that any advantage would be derived from setting up such a Commission.

May I ask whether His Majesty's Government have decided to establish a Ministry of Health?

No, Sir; and for that reason we thought it would be desirable that the first step should be taken before the second.

Excess Profits Duty (Trust Deeds)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a trustee under a trust deed in Scotland is considered by his Department liable under Section 56 of the Finance Act, 1916, to Excess Profits Tax, although only debenture holders and creditors share in the profits?

This question turns upon the circumstances of the case concerned. If the hon. Member will inform me of the case which he has in mind, I will have inquiry made in the matter.

War Expenditure

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state approximately the daily cost of the Salonika, Mesopotamia, Gaza, and East African Expeditions?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this. I am afraid that the form of Army accounting does not enable the cost of any one expedition to be shown separately. It is not practicable, therefore, to give the estimate for which my right hon. Friend asks.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can give the House the approximate expenditure daily of Germany on the War?

asked what are the latest figures in his possession showing the daily war expenditure of Germany, France, and the United Kingdom, respectively, as officially stated by their Governments?

The latest official statement of expenditure by the German Government is for the period February to May of this year. According to a speech by the Financial Secretary on 5th July, expenditure during this period from the war credits was at the rate of £150,000,000 per month, or £5,000,000 per day (converted at the rate of 20 m. to £l), as against £100,000,000 per month, or £3,500,000 a day in the first half of 1916. This excludes normal Budget expenditure, i.e., debt charge, etc., and also, as far as can be judged, advances to allies and many other items which are included in the English figures of Vote of Credit expenditure, such as the greater part of the cost of separation allowances, etc.

Credits for all purposes voted by the French Chamber for the quarter April to June, 1917, show an average expenditure of £137,040,000 per month, or £4,469,000 per day (converted at rate of 25 fr. to £l). This figure does not include advances to Allies.

During the first 112 days of the financial year 1917—that is to say, from 1st April to 21st July—the average daily expenditure of His Majesty's Government from the Vote of Credit amounted to £6,795,000.

Does the Government think there will be any substantial reduction in the expenditure since America, the richest country in the world, has joined the Allies?

If my hon. Friend will read the Debates on the Vote of Credit he will see.

I think my answer is that they do. It states "Credits for all purposes."

Whiting-Bull Tractors

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether any Whiting-Bull tractors are available for sale in this country; and how many have been already sold?

I am informed by Messrs. Whiting that all the Whiting-Bull tractors now in this country have already been sold, and that the total number is considerably over a hundred. The twelve tractors referred to in my reply to the right hon. the Member for the Kirkcaldy Burghs on 24th July were those available for sale at that date.

Shipping Freights

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller, whether the actual cost of the carriage of wheat and flour from America to this country means the precise Blue Book rates of about 8s. to 9s. per deadweight ton for the round voyage which the shipping companies receive or some amount in excess of these rates; and, if the latter, what is the exact cost of carriage charged to the Wheat Commission for wheat and flour brought from America to England?

As I have previously stated, the charge to the Wheat Commission is the actual cost of carriage based on the appropriate Blue Book rates of hire.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether the freights charged for the carriage of bacon, cheese, butter, tinned meats, tinned fish, condensed milk, and other similar articles of food carried in requisitioned vessels are the freights which are paid to the shipowners at Blue Book rates, namely, about 6s. per ton deadweight per month on time basis, or are they the competitive rates which are entered in the bills of lading on the instructions of the Ministry according to the voyage; for what reason the English consumer of these articles of food is deprived of the advantage of the Blue Book rates and is charged these higher freights; and whether the Ministry of Shipping will cooperate in the efforts now being made by the Food Controller to reduce the cost of food by giving the consumer full advantage of the low cost of carriage rendered available by the shipping companies?

The general principle on which the Ministry of Shipping proceeds is to charge Blue Book rates in the case of commodities of which supplies are controlled and market rates where the supplies are uncontrolled. The reasons for this policy were fully explained by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Food in the Debate on the Vote of Credit on Wednesday last. When the article is controlled the advantage of Blue Book rate goes to the consumer by reason of that control. When the article is uncontrolled the charging of Blue Book rate would probably merely give additional profit to the merchant with no advantage to the consumer. There is, I am glad to think, complete agreement between the Ministry of Shipping and the Ministry of Food in this important matter.

Will the hon. Gentleman admit now that it is the Government and not the shipowners who are making profits out of the freights?

That statement is hardly justified. The profit which is made by the shipowner now either goes direct to the consumer, in cases where it can be given to the consumer, and in other cases it goes into the Treasury to help to defray the cost of the War.

How much profit has been made by the Treasury out of this arrangement up to the present moment?

It is impossible to say how much profit has been made for the people of this country.

Pilotage Fees

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he is aware that a circular was issued at the beginning of the War by the Director of Transports to the masters of transports fixing a tariff on pilotage to be paid to those masters of transports who pilot their own vessels in and out of the ports of Dover and Folkestone at the rate of 6s. in or out of Dover and 5s. in or out of Folkestone; that this pilotage is paid to the masters of the Belgian mail steamers running as troop and ambulance transports as well as to the masters of the "Princess Victoria" and the "Golden Eagle" of the South-Eastern and Chatham Railway Company, but is withheld from the masters of the mail boats of the same company carrying drafts or leave men; and whether he will consider the desirability of extending this tariff to the last-named vessels?

The rule is that pilotage fees at the rates laid down, which are not fixed, but vary with the draft of the vessel, are paid to those masters who hold the necessary qualification. The case of masters of the South-Eastern and Chatham Railway Company stands on a special footing, as the duty of pilotage was taken into account in fixing their salaries. The master of the "Princess Victoria" is in the service of the railway company, and, like the other masters of railway steamers, does not draw pilotage fees. My hon. and gallant Friend is under a misapprehension with regard to the "Golden Eagle," which does not belong to the railway company, but to the General Steam Navigation Company. Her master is, therefore, entitled to fees under the general rule. There is thus no unfair discrimination, as the question might suggest.

Does not my hon. Friend know that pilotage is already paid to one of the masters of the South-Eastern and Chatham Railway Company's steamers, who is receiving £100 per year more salary than are other masters?

No; I was not aware of that fact, and if my hon. and gallant Friend can give me particulars I shall be glad.

Coal Supplies

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the selling price of coal at well-known collieries in the Midlands supplying coal to London has been fixed at about 3s. per ton lower than the coal merchants have had to pay at these collieries; if he can state whether the reduction is to take effect as from 30th April; whether the London coal merchants will receive the full benefit of the 3s. per ton reduction; and if he can state whether in consequence of the price of coal being fixed at 3s. per ton lower than it was whether the selling price to the consumers is to be reduced in consequence?

It is the fact that prices at one or two collieries have been reduced by as much as 3s. per ton as from 1st May, but it would not be correct to assume that the excess charges have been borne by the public, in view of the existing arrangement for the limitation of coal prices in London, which is based on the payment of colliery prices in accordance with the provisions of the Price of Coal (Limitation) Act. Proposals for securing a closer control of retail coal prices throughout the country are now being considered by the Controller of Coal Mines, and the position in London is being reviewed in that connection.

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade what provision has been made for the supply of coal for domestic use during the coming winter; and why those who are following the advice of the Controller of Mines to fill their cellars in the summer time cannot get their orders fulfilled?

An Order by the Board of Trade dealing with supplies of household coal to all classes of consumers within the Metropolitan Police area has been fully considered, and will be issued by the Board of Trade, it is expected, in the course of a few days. It has naturally been impossible, in the limited period since the Controller of Coal Mines gave the advice referred to, to provide all consumers within the Metropolitan area with the full amount of their coal requirements for the coming winter, but supplies have been coming into London in large quantities, and the demands of householders have been and are being met gradually by their coal merchants as far as possible in rotation. There are reasonable grounds for believing that the greater part of the orders which have been given will be executed by the time the new Order will affect purchasers of coal, and it may be added that complaints which have reached the Controller of Coal Mines have been attended to promptly by the London Coal Committee and generally with perfectly satisfactory results.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if this matter is not put into the hands of the local authorities that there will be the same trouble this winter as last?

Is it legitimate for private consumers to order coal from their merchants to be put aside for the coming winter?

Certainly. The Coal Controller is working in co-operation with the local authorities, and, I think, very cordially too.

Can my hon. Friend deal with this point, which is material to most of us, for most of us are ordering coal, but none of the merchants of whom we have ordered it can deliver it: Has the hon. Gentleman looked into the question of transport inside London?

Obviously the question of transport is one of the great difficulties that the Coal Controller has to face. Orders are being dealt with in rotation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the lighting and railway companies have no difficulty in having, at this moment, more weeks' supply in front of them than they had before the War? Why, then, cannot private—

British Railways (Goods Traffic)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state if there has been any increase of goods traffic on the railways since the Government took over control notwithstanding depleted plant; and can he give any comparative figures of 1913 and 1914, before the War, and in 1915, 1916, and 1917, since the War, of the goods traffic on British railways?

There has unquestionably been a very considerable increase of goods traffic on the British railways since the Government took control at the beginning of the War, but I am not in a position to furnish figures, inasmuch as large quantities of naval and military traffic have been carried on which no charges are raised.

Petrol Supplies

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state why the Petrol Committee has refused any petrol supply to Mr. John Cutler, wholesale grocer, of Blackburn, who has to supply over 1,000 retail shops over a considerable area, and who, owing to the fact that all his old staff of men have been called up to the Colours, has been obliged to dispose of his horses and buy a motor lorry, which is now laid up idle for lack of petrol; and will the Committee immediately reconsider their decision and grant Mr. Cutler a supply of petrol?

At the date of Mr. John Cutler's original application for a supply of petrol before he had purchased a lorry it was found after careful investigation that the facilities at his disposal for the transport of food were reasonably adequate, and he was accordingly informed that the use of a motor lorry did not appear to be necessary. This decision met with the concurrence of the Ministry of Food. A further application was received from Mr. Cutler on 27th July, in which the circumstances mentioned in the question under reply were detailed, and after further reference to the Ministry of Food it has been decided that Mr. Cutler is now entitled to a supply of petrol.

Railway Tickets (Holidays)

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether the concessions in regard to railway tickets for the holidays which have been granted to munition workers also apply to the other workers who are employed on Government work in controlled firms?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I am not quite sure to what other workers the question refers, but all married men who are employed in controlled establishments are eligible for the vouchers for the purpose of visiting their homes during the holidays. The number of these vouchers, however, is strictly limited.

Steaming Without Lights

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade if, now that the Board of Trade have recognised, and are acting on the principle, that loss of life or effects caused by a collision due to steaming without lights are regarded as being caused by a war risk, it will be possible for those who have suffered through such causes at any period since the commencement of the War to make their claims and receive compensation?

Delivery of Correspondence (Postal Delay)

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that the daily notices sent out by the Patronage Secretary to Members of this House are frequently not delivered to addresses within a half a mile of this House till after a delay of twelve, twenty-four, or more hours; whether he can explain these delays; and whether he proposes to take steps to rectify matters in this regard?

I have no reason to believe that delays of twelve hours or more are of frequent occurrence, but I fear that, under existing conditions, it is impossible in all cases to guarantee the prompt delivery of correspondence.

Housing Schemes

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has issued to local authorities a Circular promising financial help for housing schemes to be put in hand after the War; what help he proposes to give local authorities for this matter and on what method it is based; and will he bring up the proposals to this House before any definite scheme is finally entrusted to local authorities?

I have issued a Circular to local authorities in England and Wales, saying that the Government recognise that it will be necessary for the years immediately following the War to afford substantial financial assistance from public funds to those local authorities who are prepared to carry through without delay at the conclusion of the War a programme of housing for the working classes approved by the Local Government Board. I have also stated that it is not possible at this stage to indicate either the form which this assistance will take or the extent of it. This is a matter which must be settled at a later date, and no doubt there will be opportunity for the House to express its views on any definite proposal put forward by the Government.

In making these Grants to local authorities, will my right hon. Friend consider the claims of various utility societies an private enterprises, and will he also have regard to the injury which might be inflicted on the building and allied trades if preferential treatment were given to the local authorities?

Military Use of Stables (Ireland)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that on 7th October, 1916, the military C Squadron of the Northumberland Hussars, under the command of Major Ridley and Lieutenants Elliot and Smyth, took complete possession of the yard and stables of Mr. John Whelan, in Green Lane, Carlow, and occupied them until 18th January, 1917, stabling 35 horses therein; that these premises were used by Mr. Whelan for fattening cattle in the winter months, accommodating between 50 and 54 head, which was impossible during the military occupation; that Mr. Whelan prepared the yard for the horses at the request, and to the satisfaction, of the commanding officer, who informed him that he would be paid for necessary alterations and any damage done, as well as for the stabling of the horses; if he will say why the Treasury now refuse to pay Mr. Whelan any compensation for the use of the yard and stables or for any loss sustained, except £12 for dilapidations; and if he will have further inquiries made into Mr. Whelan's claim for the stabling or the loss incurred by his not being able to stall-feed his cattle during last winter?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The case referred to by the hon. Member has formed the subject of correspondence between him and myself, and, as explained to him in my last letter, Mr. Whelan's right course, if he considers the amount inadequate, is to submit a claim to the tribunal specially erected for dealing with cases of this kind—the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission.

Mr. Hugo Greef

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the Durfold estate, near Godalming, has recently been purchased by an unnaturalised German alien named Hugo Greef through his elder son who, having been born in England, is technically a British subject; whether he is aware that the said Durfold estate is situated on high ground and is within a mile of One Tree Hill, an ideal signalling spot which commands a view of the sea, and to which unobserved access can be obtained from Durfold at night by woodland paths; whether he is aware that Greef is the manager of the firm of Henderson and Liddell, which was prosecuted by the Government and fined £1,000 for exporting cocoa beans destined for Germany, and that his son was fined at Leicester for displaying a bright light on the night of an air raid; and whether, in view of these facts, steps will be at once taken to intern Greef, and whether his family will be prevented from living on the estate?

As to the first two parts of the question, the facts are substantially as stated. As to the third part, the firm were fined for failing to produce evidence to the satisfaction of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise that certain cocoa beans exported by them had not reached enemy territory, but the Court was informed that the Commissioners were satisfied that the defendants had no desire to engage in any trade opposed to the interests of this country. As to the fourth part of the question, I am informed that there was no air raid on the night referred to. Mr. Hugo Greef has resided in this country for thirty-six years, is married to a British-born wife, and has three British-born children. He was exempted from internment in August, 1915, on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee. I am not satisfied that there is sufficient reason for now reversing this decision, but I am consulting the military authorities as to whether it is expedient to allow him or his family to continue to reside at Durfold.

Does my right hon. Friend think it is calculated to give public confidence that an unnaturalised German who has been fined £1,000 for supplying goods to Germany should still be the export manager of this very large firm?

Foreign Jews Protection Society

asked the Home Secretary the reason for the raiding of the Foreign Jews Protection Society on Friday last and the arrest of the secretary; and whether the secretary is to be prosecuted for any offence or interned without trial?

The action referred to was taken under Nos, 51 and 55 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations because there was reason to believe that the Secretary of this society was acting in a manner prejudicial to the public safety and the defence of the realm, by conspiring to defeat the operation of the recently passed Military Service Act and the Convention made with the Russian Government. The question what steps shall be taken against the person arrested is under consideration.

Old Age Pensions

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he can account for the delay in dealing with the pensions of Robert Carr, John O. Wallington, and James Kirk by the pensions officer at Barrow-in-Furness; whether he is aware that two of these applications date back to December, 1916, and the other to January, 1917; and whether some arrangements will be made with the local pensions committee and the pensions officer to expedite these claims?

I am having inquiry made into this matter, and will acquaint the hon. Member with the result.

Mr. Henderson's Absence Abroad

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, "the conduct of the War Cabinet in allowing, at this critical period of the War, one of its members to proceed abroad, accompanied by a pacifist Member of this House, on business unconnected with the Minister's duties as a member of the War Cabinet, and upon a mission which had not received its consideration or sanction."

The pleasure of the House having been signified, the Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 10, until a quarter past Eight this evening.

I desire to ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, on a point of Order. The Noble Lord having just obtained leave to move the Adjournment of the House, raises a point on which I want to ask your guidance. When the Motion was made yesterday you ruled from the Chair that you could not take the Motion as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson) was not present, and it would not be fair to attack him in his absence, and you further stated that the right hon. Gentleman would probably be back to-day, when the Motion could be made. The point I want to put is this: If this Debate takes place to-night, will it be in Order for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle to sit in the House or to take any part in the proceedings? The reason I ask that question is because of a statement made by the Home Secretary on Friday last when explaining the New Ministries Bill. He stated there were two Ministers created as a result of war conditions, and they were Ministers without portfolio. The right hon. Gentleman said:

"There are at present two of them who are Members of this House; the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Henderson), the right hon and learned Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson). Both have been appointed to office without portfolio, and it is proposed that they shall receive a salary. The question has been not unnaturally raised whether by so doing they vacate their seats. That was an important question, and it has sufficient substance in it to make it very desirable to have the matter settled. I propose to-set that question at rest by including in this Bill Clause 6, which provides that these Ministers shall not by reason of their appointment be deemed to have been or to be incapable of being elected to this House."

The right hon. Gentleman was then asked whether the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle was receiving a salary, and the Home Secretary replied:

"I have no doubt he has been receiving a salary. The question of his right to sit is one which I do not think it is my duty to deal with now. The point has been naturally raised whether he is entitled to sit. I think it will be the wish of the whole House that the point shall be settled, and that these Ministers should not be put to the trouble of re-election."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 27th July, 1917, col. 1606, Vol. XCVI]

The point I want to put to you, Mr. Speaker, is whether, if that statement of the Home Secretary is correct, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle will not be precluded from taking any part at all in the Debate to-night? On the other hand, if he does, I submit to you that that Clause of the Bill is absolutely unnecessary, and that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle will have to get a Bill of Indemnity.

On that point of Order. May I point out that what was said by my right hon. Friend was not that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Henderson) had not the right to sit, but that there was sufficient substance in the doubt to have that doubt set at rest? It does not at all follow that it is admitted that he has not the right to sit.

With regard to the question put by the hon. Member for Newry (Mr. Mooney), as to whether the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle has a right to sit, that is not one for me to determine; it is for the Courts of law to determine that point. My impression is that the right hon. Gentleman accepted office last December, and that he has been in attendance here and has sat and voted since more than once. Therefore, presumably he will not be precluded from attending, sitting, and voting to-day. But, however that may be, the Motion which the Noble Lord (Viscount Dun-cannon) proposes to move to-night is quite of a different character from that which was submitted to the House yesterday by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). If I may say so respectfully, I think the Noble Lord has saddled the right horse. He is putting the blame on the Cabinet for what has occurred, whereas the Motion of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh was more in the nature of an attack on the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, and it was for that reason that I thought he ought to be present and have an opportunity of replying.

Is it not a fact that since these two right hon. Gentlemen have been appointed to these two new offices, neither has sat or voted in the House of Commons, although both of them have been within the precincts of the House day after day. Therefore, if the Motion to-night is not a direct attack on the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, his conduct is bound to be impugned, and if he does rise shall I be in order in espying strangers?

I may be wrong in saying the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle has been here, and I am not quite sure whether I have seen him here or not. I rather thought I had. Anyhow it is not a question for me to decide; it is a question for a Court of law, and, as the hon. Member knows, it is open to certain parties to take action if they have any doubt as to the rights of the right hon. Gentleman.

New Member Sworn

The Right Hon. Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, for the Burgh of Dundee.

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

Can the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House give us any further information with regard to the course of business to-morrow, and also what will be the business on Friday?

In addition to the Resolution as to the Allotted Days, of which notice has been given, I propose to-morrow to move the suspension of the eleven o'clock rule until the Adjournment, and to take also the New Ministries Bill.

On Friday we shall make a beginning with the Report stage of the Corn Production Bill.

Ordered, "That the Proceedings on the Corn Production Bill and on New Ministries [Salaries and Remuneration] Committee be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour, although opposed."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

Corn Production Bill

Considered in Committee.—[ Progress, 31st July. ]

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

NEW CLAUSE.—(Power to Require Annual Agricultural Returns.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may, in order to obtain such information as is necessary for the purpose of the proper exercise by the Board of their powers under this Act, by notice served by post or otherwise on the occupier of any agricultural land or the person having the management of any such land, require him to make to such person, within such time and in such form as the Board may prescribe, a return in writing with respect to the cultivation of that land, the crops and live stock thereon, and the owner thereof.

(2) No individual return or part of a return made under this Section shall be published or disclosed except for the purposes of a prosecution or other proceedings under this Act.

(3) If any person—

( a ) refuses or without lawful excuse neglects to make a return under this Section to the best of his knowledge and belief; or

( b ) makes or causes to be made a return which is false in any particular; or

( c ) discloses or publishes contrary to the provisions of this Section any individual return, or part of a return;

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, or, if the Court is of opinion that the offence was committed wilfully, to imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for a period not exceeding three months.—[ Mr. Prothero. ]

Brought up, and read the first time; read the second time, and added to the Bill.

POSTPONED CLAUSE 6.—(Rents Not to be Raised as a Consequence of Minimum Prices.)

(1) Where notice is given by the landlord of an agricultural holding to which this Section applies to an existing tenant on a yearly tenancy to quit his holding and the tenant within thirty days after receipt of the notice to quit gives notice to the landlord requiring the question, whether the notice to quit has been given with the object of obtaining an increase of rent or other advantage which could not reasonably have been obtained if Part I. of this Act had not been in force, to be referred to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, the notice to quit shall not take effect until that question has been determined by the Board: and if the Board consider that the notice has been given with that object the Board may order that the notice shall not be valid or of any effect or shall be valid and take effect only subject to conditions contained in the order; and the order of the Board shall have effect accordingly.

This provision shall apply to notices to quit given before the commencement of this Act and since the twenty-third day of February nineteen hundred and seventeen, with the substitution of thirty days after the commencement of this Act for thirty days after receipt of the notice to quit.

(2) This section shall apply only where the amount of arable land on the holding exceeds one-tenth of the area of the holding and is at least five acres in extent.

(3) In this section—

the expression "landlord" means the person for the time being entitled to receive the rents and profits of any land;

the expression "agricultural holding" means any parcel of land held by a tenant which is agricultural in its character, but does not include land let to a tenant during his continuance in any office, appointment, or employment held under the landlord;

the expression "existing tenancy" means a tenancy in force at the date of the commencement of this Act; and the expression "existing tenant" means a tenant under such an existing tenancy.

Clause 6 is now out of order.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

The new Clause ( Option to Sell Produce to the Government at the Price Fixed in Advance ) standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow (Mr. MacCallum Scott) is outside tin: scope of the Bill. The same ruling applies to the next new Clause ( Extension of Belief of Farm Buildings, etc., from Income Tax under Schedule A ) standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division of Glasgow (Mr. Dundas White), and that would require an Amendment of the Finance Act. The two new Clauses which follow ( Powers of Board to Deal with Idle Land ) and ( Power of Board to Acquire Wheat and Oats Compulsorily ) also in the name of the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division of Glasgow, are both outside the scope of the Bill.

Does your ruling cover my new Clause dealing with the power of the Board to acquire wheat and oats compulsorily?

Yes, because that is a matter for the Food Controller. It would require some extension of the power now existing, and it would not be in order to do that in this Bill.

I respectfully submit that my proposal is not inconsistent with the principle of this Bill, that when a guarantee is given there should be a corresponding mutual liability. I quite appreciate your ruling, Mr. Chairman, that it is a matter for the Food Controller, but I submit on a point of Order that it may come within the scope of this Bill as well.

The hon. Member is quite right in saying that it does not conflict with anything in this Bill, but it is not in order. The new Clause ( The Nationalisation of Land and Security of Tenure ) standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division (Mr. Anderson) is also outside the scope of the Bill, and the same thing applies to the next two new Clauses on the Paper ( Power to Grant or Demise Land for Perpetual Rent ) and ( Valuations of Certain Land for the Purposes of Income Tax under Schedule A, Super Tax, and Increment Value Duty ) standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division of Glasgow (Mr. Dundas White). The new Clause ( Rent of Houses for Labourers ) standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Ludlow Division (Major Hunt) is beyond the scope of the Bill The question raised in the new Clause ( Obligation to Pay Rates when the Board, of Agriculture Takes Over any Land ) standing in the name of the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has already been partially dealt with, and in any case it should have been brought up as an addendum to Clause 7 of the Bill.

4.0 P.M.

Clause 7 gives power to the Board of Agriculture to take possession of land under certain circumstances and to let that land to a new tenant at any rent and under any conditions that they like. My Clause is rather different. It enacts that where the Board of Agriculture have taken possession they shall pay to the landlord the rent which he has been receiving. It is really different, and it does not interfere with the other Clause. It merely lays it down that when they do get possession of the land the landlord shall receive that particular rent.

I quite appreciate that point, but I say that Clause 7 is the place where it ought to have been brought up. The matter is not in order as a new Clause. It should have been entertained as an Amendment to the existing Clause 7.

We were in a difficulty with regard to Clause 7, because nobody knew anything about it until it appeared on the Paper, and then it was so hurried through and it was impossible to put down an Amendment of this sort.

The right hon. Baronet is mistaken. He is thinking of Clause 6 and not of Clause 7.

No, I am thinking of Clause 7. If you remember, there was a considerable discussion on Clause 7. It was practically a new Clause, and the White Paper which was circulated did not get into the hands of Members until the day that the Clause was taken. There was some hurry over Clause 5, and Clause 7 was taken unexpectedly when there was hardly anyone in the House.

It is quite true that there were a good many alterations, but it is clear that the proper course for the right hon. Gentleman to take is to bring up a further Amendment on Report. The new Clause ( Constitution and Powers of Land Committee ) standing in the name of the hon. Member for Carnarvonshire (Mr. Ellis Davies), conflicts with the Bill as it now stands, and the same thing applies to the new Clause ( Provisions as to 5 and 6 George V., c. 8) standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for the Horncastle Division (Colonel Weigall).

NEW CLAUSE.—(Complaints as to Infraction of Minimum Rates of Wages.)

Any workman employed in agriculture, or any person authorised by a workman so employed, may complain to the Agricultural Wages Board that the wages paid to the workman by any employer are at a rate less than the minimum rate applicable in the case of that workman, and the board shall consider the matter, and may, if they think fit, take any proceedings under this Act on behalf of the workman.—[ Mr. C. Duncan. ]

Brought up, read the first and second time, and added to the Bill.

The next Clause ( Half-holiday for Able-bodied Agricultural Workmen of Two Days in every Four Weeks except during Harvest ) standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for the Ludlow Division (Major Hunt) is beyond the scope of the Bill, as also is the new Clause ( State to Commandeer all Wheat and Oats Sold by the Growers from the Crops of 1917, 1918, 1919, 1920, 1921, and 1922) standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Skipton Division (Mr. Clough). The new Clause ( Recommendations by Wages Board ) standing in the name of the hon. Member for York (Mr. Rowntree) is an Amendment to a Trades Boards Act, and is beyond the scope of this Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Prevention of Damage to Crops.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may, with a view to preventing or reducing injury to crops, or trees, or wastage of pasturage by rabbits, vermin, or pests,—

( a ) make an Order requiring an owner or occupier of land to take such action as may be specified in the Order; or

( b ) take or authorise such action as in the opinion of the Board may be necessary for such purpose.

(2) If an owner or occupier fails to carry out an Order to the satisfaction of the Board the Board may themselves carry it out and recover from him as a civil debt any expenses so incurred.

(3) On production of a written authority any person authorised by the Board on that behalf may enter on such land as may be specified in the authority, and any person wilfully hindering him in the performance of his duties shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.—[ Mr. Denman. ]

Brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time,"

This is a modest proposal, to which I invite the attention of the Committee. Its object is to preserve to the Board, for a period of six years, a small but important fragment of the powers which are at present in daily exercise under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, namely, the power to deal with rabbits and vermin. This Clause has been on the Paper from the first. I put it down soon after the Second Reading, although in a slightly different form. Since then, naturally, I have kept my eyes open for evidence as to its usefulness, and I have been surprised at the mass of evidence that you see almost daily of the need for some simple power to control the ravages of rabbits and vermin. Such authorities as Mr. Hall, the war agricultural committees, the Board of Agriculture publications, and letters to the Press, together form a body of evidence that is really overwhelming, but, above all, I rely upon the observations of Members themselves. No one who has any knowledge at all of country life can have failed to see the damage that rabbits do. It is more obvious than the damage by rats, and we know, if rats are allowed to accumulate on one farm, that they spread to other farms and do damage there. I will not argue the point, because no one who seriously desires an increased production of corn can object to these very modest powers which I seek to give to the Board of Agriculture.

I feel that this is an enormously important provision which should certainly be inserted in the Bill. Under the Ground Game Acts the occupier now has the right to keep down the rabbits, but he certainly has not the opportunity, because just at the time that the rabbits require to be dealt with the farmer is occupied with his own job. I look upon rabbits as the greatest pest, not only to agriculture, but to arboriculture, or sylviculture. They are a great pest, and just at the time that they ought to be kept down the average farmer has got his hands more than full. When this War broke out I got rid of every gamekeeper I had, but within seven months, for my own protection, I had to engage a man unfit for military service to do nothing except to keep the rabbits down. If we are going to carry out the main object of this Bill, namely, increased corn production, we must grant this small power to deal with what I regard as an absolutely universal pest.

I am just as anxious to get rid of rabbits, and I have done very much the same as my hon. and gallant Friend, but I see one difficulty. I did not send away all my gamekeepers, because I knew of this beforehand. I kept two old men who are always employed destroying rabbits. In this Amendment, however, it is stated that the Board may put the burden either upon the owner or the occupier. I do not object to the burden being put upon myself, but there are owners who have had nothing to do with the rabbits, and who very likely will be obliged to engage men to destroy them for the benefit of their tenants. It is distinctly a case where the burden ought to be put upon the occupier. He has the right to do it, and there is no question about the owner being brought in. I do not quite know what is the position my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment and who voted against the Government, but I understand that he is still Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture. I do not quite know whether he, like the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. L. Scott), who spoke yesterday, has got the consent of the Minister of Agriculture to this Amendment. We do not quite know how things stand at the present moment. If this is meant to be a Government Amendment, it ought to be moved from the Government Bench after proper consideration, and the burden ought to be put upon the right person, and not upon the person who has nothing to do with it in most cases. I am quite willing that the rich owner who has large' properties and has gamekeepers should have the burden put upon him, especially if he claims the right to kill the rabbits, but in most cases there is nothing of that kind going on, and the destruction of the rabbits is entirely a matter for the benefit of the occupier. I think that the burden, therefore, ought to be entirely put upon the occupier, and not upon the owner.

No one can deny that rabbits are a great nuisance, and that the more they are kept down the better. On the other hand, no one can deny that at the present moment, owing to the shortage of men who have the requisite knowledge and the requisite skill, it is extremely difficult to keep them down. I may be wrong, and it is a matter of opinion, but I think this Bill is going to do no good to the farmer, though it is going to inflict a great deal of annoyance upon him. He is going to be overrun by officials for all sorts of different things, and now you are going to put upon him another official who is to go round and say, "You are not killing your rabbits properly, and therefore I shall authorise somebody to come and kill them." In the part of the country in which I live there has been a good deal of complaint of damage by trespassers from the large towns. How do we know that all sorts of people may not be authorised to come upon the land and shoot the rabbits, doing a great deal more harm than good! Farmers will not like their land invaded and this Clause will antagonise them. They do not like their landlords coming, and they certainly will not like strangers authorised by the board. Heaven knows what the board will be—I suppose some local committee. They will not like it at all. It will do considerably more harm than good. Then the farmer has got to pay for all this. He has got to pay somebody to come on his land to destroy rabbits which he does not want on his property. I hope that my right hon. Friend does not believe everything that he sees in the newspapers about what is going on in the country, because in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred they are absolutely wrong. What is the meaning of vermin or pests? Who is going to define what are vermin or pests? The Minister for Agriculture knows more than anyone in the House about this question, and I do implore him to consider before he accepts a Clause of this kind. It can do no good, and it is a little irritating Clause which will upset the whole of the farmers, who are upset enough as it is. The pests and the vermin will be the people who will come on to the land, and I really trust that the Clause will not be accepted. If it should be found that the result of this Bill is to create such a surplusage of rabbits that something ought to be done, it can be done then, but do not overburden the Bill with these sort of things.

The Committee has committed itself to a double dose of Government control over agriculture, and, if we are to have control, I do not think it can be better exercised than by the Government adopting the Clause now proposed. It is assumed that the Bill will increase the food production of the country, and it is absolutely essential, if the farmer is to till a crop, that he shall be perfectly certain of being able to reap the produce and that it shall not be destroyed by rabbits, vermin or other pests. One great grievance of which I have heard from farmers is that they are not allowed to kill rabbits in the covert fences adjoining their fields. The rabbits come out by night and go back by day, and the farmers have no right under the Ground Game Act to set their traps in those fences, which are the property of the landowner. That is a great grievance, I think a legitimate grievance on the part of farmers. I hope that the Government will accept this Clause, and that they will deal with that grievance when the Clause is embodied in the Bill. My hon. Friend (Mr. Denman) only mentioned rabbits, vermin or pests. With my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) I should like to have a definition of those words. There is one animal not mentioned here that is, the hare. Hares should be included in the Clause. We cannot say that a hare is vermin or a pest. I had evidence from Yorkshire last March that tenant farmers counted from sixty to eighty hares in a field of swede turnips. The President of the Board will readily appreciate what an enormous amount of damage hares would do in these circumstances. Therefore, if the Clause is accepted, as I hope it may be, hares should be included in the list of animals which the Board may authorise the owner or the occupier to kill.

There is one other point I wish to press, namely, that if this Clause is accepted, and the board does make an order upon the occupier to kill hares or rabbits, that the occupier shall not be damnified by the landlord. I know that in some cases, where there is strict game preserving, if a farmer exercises his rights, even under the Ground Game Act, at the end of a certain period, under some pretext or other, he will get notice to quit. That cannot be disputed. Therefore, I hope that the President of the Board will make it perfectly clear that if he empowers or orders the occupier to kill rabbits or hares, the occupier shall be protected against any vindictive action on the part of the owner. It is not so much a question of the actual owner of the land. In many cases it is a question of the sporting tenant. The sporting tenant takes the land for the purposes of the enjoyment of shooting, or of killing the game, and he objects very much indeed to any other person, and oftentimes the occupier, exercising any control or shooting rights upon that land. I hope the President will accept the Clause and that he will bear in mind that hares should be included as well as rabbits, and that the farmer who might exercise control under this Order should not receive any vindictive treatment on the part of the landlord. With these provisos I hope that the Clause may be accepted, and, if my hon. Friend who moved it will accept the Amendment, I shall propose a little later on to move to insert after the word "rabbits" the word "hares."

I do not know whether the Government intend to accept this new Clause. It is about time we knew whether they were going to do so or not.

I was just going to get up, but I thought I should like to listen to another opinion from the Committee.

May I just ask a question first? It would not be worth raising the point if the Government were not going to accept the Clause. I agree with the Mover in thinking that it would be desirable to have in the Bill some Clause dealing with the depredations of rabbits, but I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir C. Warner) that the Clause should only apply to the occupier. It is essential to put in the owner as well, because sometimes the blame lies with the occupier and sometimes with the owner. Therefore the board should have power to deal with both. Where there are woods in which the rabbits burrow the occupier cannot get into them in that case, and you must call upon the owner. On the other hand, there is no reason to call upon the owner if the occupier has neglected to kill the rabbits. The Clause as drafted is insufficient. For instance, no period is named in which the occupier should deal with the rabbits, and it is left to the discretion of the board to say to-day, "You must kill the rabbits," and to say to-morrow, "We will send down a man, because the owner or the occupier has failed to kill the rabbits." We ought to put in some limiting words giving a reasonable period to the owner or the occupier in which to carry out, the directions of the board. I agree with my right hon. Friend (Mr. G. Lambert) that we also require a clearer definition of pests. With these qualifications, I hope the Committee will welcome the Clause.

Before the President replies, may I ask why, with a view to preventing or reducing the injury to crops, the words "hares and pheasants" should not go in?

I am afraid I cannot accept the Clause in its existing form. I am entirely in sympathy with those who consider rabbits a pest. They are generally considered as vermin, more particularly by landowners. A landowner is injured by the rabbits, who destroy his trees, his hedges and his banks. From the landowning point of view, no landowner has any sympathy with the rabbit. But at the present moment we have all the powers that are required for dealing with rabbits, even more than would be given by this new Clause. Those powers will last during the War and for six months afterwards. After the War, when trappers and keepers have returned, it might possibly modify the situation. What I should like to put to the Commission is this: While we cannot accept this Clause in its present form, I will, before the Report stage, carefully consider whether we can bring in some Clause which will meet the case rather more fairly, with proper notice in case of default, and in other directions make it less drastic and less unfair.

I welcome that statement very much. The Clause, perhaps, does need rather more consideration, both with regard to the definition of vermin and pests and with regard to the procedure which will actually be taken. The more definitely that is laid down the better. I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has not turned down the Clause altogether, because undoubtedly the harm done by rabbits particularly and also by rats is quite extraordinary in certain cases. As many members of the Committee know, these facts have been brought to light very definitely by the work of some of the war agricultural committees and the district committees working under them. I believe that those committees have acted fairly and have generally been able to decide whether the party in fault is the owner or the occupier, or whether it is both of them jointly, and I believe that any orders they have made have put the onus of reducing the vermin on the right shoulders. It would be a very good thing if that sort of power were taken in some shape or form. Therefore, I am very glad that the Government will try to bring up a fresh Clause before Report. There is no doubt whatever that in some districts occupiers particularly do not exercise to anything like the extent they might their right of keeping down rabbits, and agriculture takes an enormous amount of harm from their neglect in that direction. I remember thin-king I was very bold some eighteen months ago, when I was at the Board of Agriculture, in saying in this House— I thought it would be very much criticised —that four rabbits either ate or spoiled as much as a sheep did, and that about forty rabbits were of the same value as one sheep. That statement was not disputed at the time. If that is so, the loss to agriculture from the existence of the superabundance of rabbits in this country from one year's end to the next must be something enormous. I am very glad that the Government intend in some way or other to put powers in the Bill for some public authority to deal with rabbits where they are superabundant.

I do not know whether my hon. Friend (Mr. Denman) is going to ask leave to withdraw this Clause. I hope that the President will put some words into the Bill. I do not think we have had any pledge. All that the right hon. Gentleman said was that he would consider it. I hope that he will consider it favourably, because, although the War Agricultural Committees no doubt have power during the War and for six months afterwards, they have it only for that period, while this Bill goes on for seven years, and, therefore, you must have legislation during that seven years. I am not very much in favour of this control, but owners of land and occupiers of land who are going to get benefits from this Bill must realise that they are going to have control. I do not think it is any good for anyone to come here now and plead the amenities of the land or the necessities of the landowner, or the shooting tenant, or anything like that. You have a guarantee in this Bill to give certain prices for corn. The Government having given that guarantee, have a right to demand that the utmost possible amount of corn shall be produced from the land. I do not see any other way out of it. I do not like all this grandmotherly legislation, but we have got it, and we have to accept the sweet with the sour and the rough with the smooth. I hope that the President, who knows what damage rabbits and hares can do, will put such a Clause as this in the Bill, because I am certain that otherwise he will not increase to the utmost extent the food production of the country.

I am very glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman proposes to take some steps to deal with the rabbit pest. It is very seriously menacing the success of agriculture. Many of the rabbit trappers have been taken away for Army service, and there is really great difficulty now in getting men to snare rabbits. The increase of the rabbit pest is due to trapping, which has killed the stoats and weasels, and therefore the rabbits have bred very much faster. If the right hon. Gentleman could suggest some way of destroying these rabbits without killing the stoats and weasels, he would more effectually deal with the pest than in any other way. I think the farmers should be allowed to use wire and snares. The crops are being damaged and fences injured and no end of harm is being done. If the problem could be grappled with effectively I am sure it would be of great benefit.

In asking leave to withdraw the Clause, I beg to thank the Committee for the very friendly reception they have given to the Amendment. We are really all of one mind. We realise the need for some restriction on rabbits, and we are very well content to leave it with my right hon. Friend to devise the best course he can.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Schedule ( Sections 11, 12, 13 and 17 of the Trade Boards Act, 1909) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Proposed New Schedule

Additional Provisions for the Enforcement of Proper Cultivation of Land in Ireland.

(1) It shall be the duty of every occupier of arable land to cultivate and maintain in cultivation a portion of the arable land held by him (in this Schedule referred to as the "holding"), not less in extent than the minimum tillage portion as prescribed by an Order of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland made under this Schedule and applying to the holding for the time being. Provided that no occupier shall be required by virtue of any such Order to cultivate more than one-half of the area of his holding.

(2) The Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland (in this Schedule referred to as the "Department") may make Orders for the purpose of prescribing the minimum tillage portion of holdings, and may make any such Order so as to apply to all holdings throughout Ireland, or to all holdings in any area specified in the Order, or to any class or classes of holdings; specified in the Order whether throughout Ireland or in any area so specified, subject in each case to any exceptions which may be made by, or under, the Order, or so as to apply to any particular holding or holdings.

(3) If in any year the occupier of a holding fails to cultivate the minimum tillage portion of the holding the Department, after affording him an opportunity of being heard in such manner as may be prescribed by Regulations under this Act, shall ascertain how much of the minimum tillage portion he has failed to cultivate and shall specify the acreage thereof in a certificate under their seal, and thereupon the occupier shall become liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds for each acre of the acreage specified in the certificate and not exceeding a proportionate amount for any fraction of an acre so specified. Where there has been a change of occupiers during the year, the person who is the occupier at the end of the year shall be the person liable to the penalty

(4) Any such penalty shall, irrespective of the amount, be recoverable by the Department by ordinary civil bill before the County Court judge of any county in which the holding or any part thereof is situated, and the decision of the County Court judge shall be final.

Any such penalty, when received or recovered by the Department, shall be applied by them for the purposes of agriculture and other rural industries within or in connection with the county or counties in which the holding is situated.

(5) The powers of the Department under this Schedule shall be in addition to and not in substitution for their other powers for the enforcement of proper cultivation under this Act and all such powers may be exercised concurrently.

(6) No penalty by way of increase of rent or otherwise shall be incurred by any; tenant under any contract of tenancy in respect of any acts of cultivation which may be necessary in order to comply with the requirements of this Schedule.

(7) For the purpose of this Schedule, except where the context otherwise requires:

( a ) the expression "cultivation" means tillage, and the expression "cultivate" has a corresponding meaning. Provided that land used for grazing, meadow, or pasture in any year shall be deemed to be cultivated in that year if it was tilled in either of the two years last preceding that year; and

( b ) the expression "arable" means; capable of being tilled.—[ Mr. Duke. ]

Brought up, and read the first and1 second time.

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph (1), to add the words, "It shall be the duty of every occupier of a non-residential farm or holding exceeding in extent one hundred acres to cultivate not less than twenty per cent. of the area of such farm or holding."

This Amendment was put down for the purpose of giving the Chief Secretary an opportunity of saying whether or not the Irish Government will do anything to facilitate the breaking up of grass land. It deals only with non-residential holdings, in order to make it clear that the intention, is to deal with grass land, and it only deals with holdings of 100 acres or more. I want to give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of telling us whether the Bill will be put drastically into operation on such holdings as are indicated. I think everyone is agreed in Ireland that at least the full extent which is suggested should be almost without exception put into operation on such holdings, and for the purpose of giving the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of declaring generally the policy of the Agricultural Board in Ireland with regard to bringing grass ranches as much as possible under cultivation, I beg to move this Amendment.

I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question. In the Order made by the Department of Agri- culture and Technical Instruction last year under the Defence of the Realm Act Regulations certain farms were excluded altogether, either those of £10 valuation or of 10 acres in extent—I forget which. I do not see any such limitation in this Schedule or in any other part of the Bill. I should like to know what has become of it, and what is the intention of the Government?

In the application of the Defence of the Realm Regulations for the purpose of promoting tillage in the whole of Ireland, no disposition was shown to give favour to any particular class of landholders. Certainly, as far as the policy of the Government and the execution of it were concerned, although naturally and inevitably there were here and there isolated instances where suspicion would arise, in the general way a fair balance was maintained. With regard to grass land, there is no exception in the Schedule which at all exonerates lands coming within that category from the general operation of the policy of permanently increasing the extent of tillage in Ireland. There is no exemption of land on the ground that it is old grass land, or that it has the special advantages which are sometimes spoken of, and there is no reason for exemption as I understand the matter. I do not think it has been found in any county in the great central plain of Ireland, where the grass lands mostly are, that the 10 per cent. was an excessive or an oppressive requirement or was not perfectly consistent with the preservation of the Irish grazing interest. I do not believe anyone who has had experience of the matter apprehends that the additional requirements which are provided here need necessarily interfere with the legitimate maintenance of the grazing interests. On the other hand, it is intended, under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, that a proper proportion of the land of Ireland shall be under tillage and shall be maintained under tillage. We shall be guided by what agriculture requires, rather than by what the individual desires. I hope that will satisfy my hon. Friend and those who act with him A consistent policy will be pursued in regard to this matter and there will not be any deviation from it. That is my answer to the general inquiry.

With regard to the Amendment itself, take the case of a man who has one farm of 50 acres on which he lives and another of 120 acres some little distance off on which he does not live. That is not at all an uncommon thing. I cannot conceive that an experienced and skilful agriculturist, like the hon. Member (Mr. Kilbride), would think it proper that that man should be penalised. He would share the general lot with regard to the insistence of the Government on the increase-of tillage, and he will not escape because he has two holdings, but in these cases it would be oppressive to introduce this proposal, and I hope, after the explanation I have given with regard to policy, the hon. Member will not think it necessary to press the Amendment. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Clancy) asked me as to the occupiers of less than £10 valuation or 10 acres. There are very considerable powers of exemption, but the occupiers of these small holdings in Ireland are not by any means the class of people who shrink from doing their duty. Anyone who is acquainted in the most superficial way with the position and character of the multitudes of small holders in various parts of Ireland knows that the small farmer in a general way tills every foot of land into which he can put his spade with anything like profit. I do not think any statutory exemption is required. I do not think the operation of this Schedule will materially affect these small holders. This class of holders was not exempted from the Defence of the Realm Regulations because of any supposition that they would be either unwilling or unable to do the amount of tillage which was indicated by the Regulation, but because they were doing it, and it would have been a waste of effort to put regulations upon them, having regard to the scores, if nots hundreds of thousands, of such holdings which there are.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his explanation, but he has misunderstood my position. I wanted these small holders to be exempt on the ground that they had already been doing for all time all that is expected of them or that they can be compelled to do.

I must not be supposed to say that if a man with 10 acres of land disregards all the ordinary rules of agriculture that special case will not be dealt with. I merely say, in a general way, that this Schedule is not designed to interfere with the small holders. If, between now and the Report stage, the hon. and learned Gentleman makes a suggestion on the subject I will consider it with my advisers.

I wish to bring under the notice of the right hon. Gentleman, and of the Vice-President, a very important consideration on this matter. I have a case in my own part which applies to a great many others in Ireland, where a farmer holds two or three large holdings. I know of a ease in which there are 600 or 700 acres of land. The owner has a similar holding a very long distance away in an agricultural and tillage district, which he lets out on conacre at an enormous price to the small holders in that district. He gets a large price per acre for the land, bringing in a large income, and has to contribute no labour under the scheme. I think that is a great injustice, but I am rather inclined to think that where landowners were able to extract large sums per acre for conacre last year they are not likely to be able to get the same high prices in the coming year, because I believe that these small holders will have got such a dose that the landowners will be rather inclined to ask them to take the tillage for nothing in order to save them. It seems to me that is a hardship that does come in, and I direct the right hon. Gentleman s attention, and the attention of the Vice-President, to the fact that those large holders of land should not be allowed to make a profit out of this transaction while trying to get large prices from small landholders in bog districts. It is a very important and serious matter, and I venture to suggest that the alternative should not be left to a landowner in these conditions to choose the particular district which would bring him an income at the sacrifice of the people in the other district of his residential holding. It is a very important matter, and I would strongly urge on the right hon. Gentleman to see to it. There is one other matter, and that is with regard to putting this extra upon the small holder. The Chief Secretary admits that the small holders have done their part. I know a great number of small holders who have always tilled their land, and always contributed to the supply of food, and these men regard it as a great hardship that it should be said that notwithstanding the fact that they have tilled in that way they are now to till 5 per cent. extra. I know that they have complied with the Order better than the large owners, but still they find it a grievance, and I really think that where these small holders have contributed to the food supplies for so long they should not be expected to contribute the extra 5 per cent. this year.

This is an extremely important part of the Bill, and while I agree broadly with what was said by the Chief Secretary, that the policy of the Department and the intention of the Department was to make no distinction between different classes of landowners in Ireland in applying the tillage Regulations, I am afraid that if you go to the country you will find that, for whatever reason I cannot profess to know, there have been some rather glaring cases where men who are in possession of large plots of land have been left out of the operation of this scheme. I mention one case so that the Vice-President may have the opportunity of considering it. I received the other day a very bitter complaint from a gentleman who resides in the neighbourhood of one of the largest landowners in Ireland, Lord Ashtown. It is a vast property on which you can go miles upon miles without seeing a trace of human habitation, and is under grass. I cannot speak of my own knowledge in this matter, but this man has sent to me to my amazement the statement that the compulsory provisions were practically a dead-letter as regards this estate. I think it advisable that in the administration of this Act the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture should, I would go as far as to say, devote his earliest attention to seeing that all suspicion on this question is removed from the minds of the people, and that the large and wealthy men are made to do their part before he turns to the smaller men, who have done their part much better in the past. Of course, this part of the Bill touches only the fringe of one of the greatest questions remaining unsettled in Ireland, and that is how to deal with these great grass lands. Unfortunately we cannot introduce now provisions we should very much like to introduce dealing in a more adequate way with this great question of the grass lands, but so far as Ireland is concerned if you could introduce a really radical, efficient, and rapid system by which these grass lands could be divided among and put into the possession of the people, so far as it is desirable, and just and. of course, with proper compensation, you would do a great deal more to stimulate the production of food in Ireland permanently than this Bill could possibly do with all its provisions for a bonus, and so on; because in Ireland you have, after all, in the neighbourhood of these great grass tracts a vast number of people who are living on lands so poor and with holdings so small that their labour is wasted. Yet these are the people who if they could be put on grass land in the neighbourhood where they live would solve the entire labour question so far as they were concerned, would bring all this land into a high state of cultivation, and would produce food double, treble, and quadruple the quantity now produced, all out of the labour of their own family. In point of fact they are peasants of the very class that at a time like this we desire to encourage and multiply on the land.

I am very glad to say that a great deal of that work has been done on the fertile lands of Ireland, and in Mayo, to which I belong, and I should like to show one of the extraordinary effects of that. I had a letter the other day, which I handed on to the Chief Secretary, from a priest calling for an enlargement of his schools because of the operations of the Board in those districts in providing the greatest amount of land. Schools for forty children which had before hardly been filled were now crowded with more than 100 children, and the population was rapidly increasing. These great tracts of grass land, which so far as cultivation went were deserts for years and years, are now being restored to cultivation, and when you put that class, accustomed to the country and with the habit of cultivation in their blood, on the land they require no stimulus at all; they just cultivate the land and give the right hon. Gentleman no trouble beyond the usual beneficent operations of his Board in encouragement and stimulation of that kind. That is the really practical way in which agriculture and the population can be restored in Ireland and the land made to produce a vastly greater quantity of food than it does at present. I believe it will be possible within the next few years nearly to double—not altogether by that process, but partly by that process and partly by a higher-class and more intensive cultivation—the production of food in Ireland, with enormously beneficial results to this country, and to Ireland, of course.

5.0 P. M

There was one other point raised on which I should like to say something. My hon. Friend pointed out what in my opinion is a very dangerous evil. I was rather alone on this point last winter, that of the question of conacre. Conacre has certain virtues, and is an old custom in Ireland, but I live in the country, and, after observing its operation this winter, I very much dislike it, and when a great clamour was raised last winter, I admit by the very poor, for the introduction of conacre I set my face against the encouragement of it. One of the great evils of conacre is that it brings into competition for the land the poorest of the people, with the result that, as always happens in this class of letting, you have preposterous rents offered. The poor man who wants an acre of potatoes offers a perfectly ridiculous price. I have known £10 per acre to be paid for land in Ireland this year under the conacre system; and it is speculative. Suppose that that crop fails. The unfortunate man, who is generally a poor man, or a very small farmer, who wants land and who would be in possession of grass land, or a labouring man in the town, borrows money to pay for the conacre, and is at the mercy of the weather. If the weather fails he is totally ruined, with a load of debt round his neck. I know these men bid for this land in a wild and reckless way far beyond the market value, and that is the way when the poor come in to bid for a monopoly. I do not like this system, but I know I am pushing an open door, and I think the Vice-President agrees with me not to encourage it—I do not say prohibit it, because you could not do that with an old custom without a great deal of trouble. There is another reason I object to the conacre system, and why I regard it as a great and most menacing evil. It had to a great extent lessened in recent years, but it has taken a fresh start last year—and to some people that ought to be an encouragement—but if conacre takes anything like a broad extension in Ireland you will have a great many of the evils of the old rack-rent landlords which we have overthrown, and, moreover, you will erect a fresh and most formidable barrier against the redistribution of the grass lands; because once you get it into the heads of the men who hold grass lands that by a system of auctioning and conacre, they can get from the small man £10 an acre for their land, none of them will part with his land at such a price as will enable the Government to settle people on it. The result will be that the settlement on grass lands will be immensely and immeasurably increased from the point of view of expense and difficulty. That is what I am very much afraid, to some slight extent after last year's experience, threatens. I know in some districts with which I am acquainted people in small farms refused to take conacre and discouraged the whole system, and I think they were perfectly sound in their view. In this country you are always casting about to see how you can recover your peasants who have been wiped out. You have got into the system of the capitalist farm, and you have the agricultural labourer disappearing. That is the problem you find here. We in Ireland have not lost them. The peasants are there and the old spirit is in full force. But the vast mass of our peasantry are starving, and in a condition which renders it impossible for them to contribute to the wealth of the country as they ought to be able to contribute to it. What is really wanted in Ireland is some system that will allow the peasants to get back upon the land from which they were driven in the great clearances. Then agriculture will flourish. In Roscommon, in Mayo, in Tipperary, and certain other parts we actually see cleared some of the most beautiful and fertile country on God's earth. This land, which was cleared fifty years ago, has been resettled, and it is one of the most remarkable and delightful scenes in the world to go there and see the country rapidly becoming beautiful, as is the French countryside, with neat peasants' houses and prosperous homes. Now you have forty or fifty families living where nothing but bullocks and herds were to be seen in former years, and the population, which you are now beginning to understand is the supreme wealth of a country, flourishes and multiplies in Ireland once more, while the land yields five, six, or seven times what it did under the old system. That is what we want to see carried out throughout Ireland, and in my opinion—I give this for what it is worth—if a comprehensive scheme were put into operation and carried to completion it would do more than anything I can think of to pour water on the flames which are now threatening to rage in Ireland and would bring the country round to a more rational frame of mind.

I would remind hon. Members that we are on an Amendment to the Schedule, and that they must really confine their remarks to that.

The idea of breaking up the great grazing ranches is the most important suggestion that could be put forward in connection with the production of corn. The Chief Secretary, who traveled down in the Western part of Ireland and through the part of Kerry which I represent, saw how our industrious peasantry cultivate the mountain side with extraordinary energy and persistence. They win back from heather and even from bog-land, which they cultivate with this extraordinary persistency. Apply that persistency to the grass lands of Ireland and you get a far greater productivity than you get by people working on the sides of mountains year after year, very often not producing anything extra, but labouring to prevent the land going back to its mountain character. They are not producing so much in the way of extra food, but are really preventing the ground from going back to its original appearance, in which it had no value at all. I hope, therefore, that the Government, even if they cannot see their way to accept the present Amendment, will recognise that it is in the breaking up of the grass ranches, and by applying the persistency and cleverness of our people of the wild districts of the country to getting food out of the grazing land, that increased production will come, and will give the peasant an opportunity, which they so much desire, of making that land productive. Give them that opportunity and there is no limit to the producing power of the Irish peasantry. Only put them upon land which we know is capable of really producing food and you will see the result you want.

I never remember a time during the thirty-two years that I have been a Member of this House when my sympathies were so completely in accord as they are now with the hon. Member who has spoken. The hon. Member for East Mayo said that he was quite aware that in my case that he was pushing an open door. I am glad to be able to say that is so. I want to refer to three points raised regarding the administration of the Regulation which I think ought to be explained. The first is the different treatment by the Department as between large and small holdings. It is very well known when we speak of a small holding we refer to the holdings of 10 acres, which have been explicitly excluded from the Regulation. They were excluded, as the Chief Secretary will remember, on my own motion at the first conference we held. I maintained that these men did not require compulsion, that they had always tilled well, and that they had been the very soul of the tillage movement. It has been said that in the administration of the Order as it stands the small holders of land are subject to partial treatment, while in many cases the large holders escape altogether. It is very difficult for any Department placed as the Department of Agriculture is, summoned almost at a moment's notice to administer an Act like this, summoned to take stock of 224,003 holdings of over 10 acres and bring them under the Regulation, summoned to do that at short notice, and immediately after to be confronted with a month's hard weather, which made all cultivation impossible—it is very difficult to do it in such a way as not to give rise to criticism. I am not sure whether it is quite recognised that the bad weather added immensely to the difficulties of administration. My hon. Friend the Member for East Mayo may, like myself, get letters from farmers complaining that So-and-so has been exempted. But I would say to him that he is entirely mistaken in his view of what has taken place. What has taken place is this: We came to a period when it was impossible to push tillage, because the season was passed. But we did not give up our appeals to these men. At the present moment there are 600 of these large farmers who have neglected to do anything with their land, and who have treated the Order with contempt so far as they were able to do so. This land has been taken possession of legally and formally by the Department, and posters have been put on the land in 600 cases, notifying to the owners and to the public that this land now belongs to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction, and warning trespassers.

I am speaking without the papers. Therefore, I do not profess to speak with that authority that I could do otherwise; but I can say that Lord Ashtown has to a very large extent complied with the Regulations. That is all I am entitled to say upon my recollection. But the papers have been before me and I am certain I am right in saying that Lord Ashdown has complied, if not en- tirely, almost entirely with the requirements of the law. A goodly number of these men whose lands have been formally taken possession of have ceased their defiance of the Department. They have found that it will not pay. There was a case in Kildare the other day. I am glad to see both Members for Kildare in their places. A gentleman came to the Department and asked us when the prohibition was going to be taken off. We did not stop them using the land until September. We gave that permission and we gave them notice that when September or October comes, that is to say when the period comes for tilling the land, we shall do the work. One gentleman who has been dealt with in this way called at the Department the other day and proposed to sell his 600 acres of land in separate lots. He said he could not consent to till the 600 acres required and that he would sell them. If that goes on it is all to the good, for farms can be broken up in that way. If you can get a large farm of 600 acres broken up into sixty farms, that is all to the good of Ireland and for the farmers and the public. The land is not being neglected. In these cases we are doing what we can and the moment September comes we shall do more. It is our determination that not one of these large farmers who have failed to comply with the law shall be allowed to get off. The next question is what shall be required in the future. It must be recognised that a man who has done nothing cannot expect to place himself in the position of the man who has performed his part and kept the law. He will have to make good his failure in the first place and will then get his 15 per cent. That is all I have to say about the small and large holdings.

All I ask hon. Members to do is to recognise the difficulties in which we were placed by the short notice we got, by the difficulties of the weather and the difficulties of getting the machinery in motion. I ask hon. Members to make allowances for those things and to remember that no one in the Department is at all inclined to show any favour to these large farmers who have neglected to do what they ought to have done. We hold that they ought to do more and better than the smaller men, who are not in the same position. Coming to the question of aggregation of small holdings raised by my hon. Friends, let me say that very early in the work this question of aggre- gation was brought to our notice. The question was put over and over again whether for the purpose of carrying out the Act it would not be better to aggregate the holders and allow two the tillage upon one. If anything has taken place such as my hon. Friend has described—and I do not question the possibility of it—T ask him to believe that it arises from faulty administration. I take entire responsibility myself for that. I can see that it is difficult for an inspector and dangerous to get at the actual facts, but please remember that it is not inherent in the Regulations or in the provisions of the Act. It is solely due to the question of administration. We have power to refuse to aggregate and we have power to choose the land which we shall occupy. I quite agree that there are cases where aggregation would not work well. I shall look closely into what may arise in the future. Let me say one word about conacre, which is the last thing my hon. Friend raised.

I do not think that is a good system of cultivation. I do not care for it, and, what is more, the authorities of the Department, who are trained agriculturists, do not like it. It is not in the interests of good agriculture. But there again, how were we placed? We proposed to seize land belonging to these large owners. We were called upon to take up holdings of 600 acres. There were many holdings of 600 acres in Meath which were brought into conacre. What was the Department to do? We had a large number of these large holders not taking kindly to the Regulations. I do not put it stronger than that. They did not resist, but they did not give encouragement. They were not inclined to till unless they were compelled. We had no way open to us but to tell them that if they did not till the requisite quantity of land we should call a conacre auction. We did that because we could not help it. It was the only way of bringing the Regulations into operation. It was successful, because these gentlemen, the moment they were faced with the question of conacre, at once turned round and said they would do it. We had to take action in a large number of cases, but the number would have been far larger if it had not been for the innate objection of these men to conacre. In regard to this matter, the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) is pushing at an open door. I am en- tirely with him. The Department is with him. We do not consider this a good system of agriculture. We were regretfully compelled to adopt it. We either had to allow these Regulations to go to the wall and to allow these men to triumph over the Department and over the law, or we had to use the machinery that was in our hands. We have used it. Whilst I quite admit there have been, drawbacks, and some very grave drawbacks, nothing else could be expected. The job was too big, too gigantic to have a smooth path running through it. We had difficulties, and we had resistance in many cases, most impertinent resistance, most impertinent defiance of the law. People seemed to imagine that the poor man was to be compelled to till his 10 per cent. extra in order to raise food for the people and that these men with their hundreds of acres, were to do nothing. It must be admitted that, taken on the whole, the Regulations have been worked with very little friction all over the country, and, judging the figures by the English and Scottish figures, with very great success. I do not know what the future has in store for us, but I confess quite candidly that I shall be grateful if we have as clear a run next year as we have had this year. One thing is in our favour. We have more time to do it and the people are better prepared and know what is expected of them. I expect we shall get through to the end.

Amendment negatived.

The four Amendments on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Waterford County (Mr. O'Shee) I am not quite able to follow. I take it they are part of one proposition. Is that so?

Will the hon. Member move the first Amendment and explain what the whole amount to?

I beg to move, in paragraph (3), to leave out the words "the acreage thereof" ["shall specify the acreage thereof"].

The object of the Amendment is to secure that the certificate of the Department shall not merely state the acreage, but shall also state the penalty to which the person in default shall be liable, and that thereupon the Department shall be entitled to go to the Court and produce their certificate of the acreage and the amount of the penalty, and such amount of penalty shall be recoverable. That will avoid, after the first hearing by the Department which is provided for in the Schedule, a second hearing before the Court of the same matter. The certificate of the Department shall be conclusive evidence of the acreage and the penalty, and the County Court shall give a decree just as it now gives a decree on a certificate of the Land Commissioners in reference to arrears and of a certificate of the Board of Works in reference to charges.

I have considered this Amendment and have discussed it not only with my technical and professional advisers, but with persons profoundly skilled in the agricultural affairs of Ireland and the social conditions, and on the whole I think the proposal is a sound proposal. I do not see any objection in point of the administration of justice to disposing with a second hearing in Court if you get a sufficient opportunity of being heard before the tribunal to be constituted by the Department. No doubt the tribunal will be much more conversant with agricultural matters and with the necessities of the case and the policy of the Act, and the possibilities of the persons concerned, than any tribunal which you would be likely to find in the ordinary Courts of justice. I quite see that a skilled agriculturist is a better person to deal with these matters, both as to the alleged breach and the excuses for it, than even a trained lawyer. But I cannot go quite the length which is suggested here. I cannot go to the length of making the certificate conclusive evidence of the fact that the person who alleged that he was not the person who ought to be sued was not the person who was in fact in default and that he could not be sued. The result of such a proceeding would be that in various cases, such as prohibition and cases of that sort, it would embarrass the operation of the Act and increase litigation and increase the expenses of persons who were concerned. With regard to a single hearing before a competent tribunal I am with the hon. Member, but in regard to the question I cannot go to the length which he suggests. I prefer an alternative form of words, which I have shown to hon. Members interested in this Amendment, and if they are content to accept the form of words which I propose and which carries out the objects I have in view as well as the objects which they have in view, I should be content to accept this Amendment with a view to making the modifications I have explained.

I have had an opportunity of considering the form of words which the right hon. Gentleman suggests should be adopted instead of the words proposed in this Amendment, and, on the whole, I am satisfied, and I think my colleagues are satisfied, that the form of words proposed by the Chief Secretary would meet the case very satisfactorily. The object that this Amendment seeks to secure is that there should be in the working out of this Act no unnecessary litigation. I quite agree that the Amendments which we proposed went rather far. They gave too arbitrary a power to the Department of Agriculture and I do not see that there can be any objection to their being a hearing before the County Court. There are two matters which might very well be inquired into, namely, whether the person sought to be made liable is in reality the occupier, and whether any payment has already been made. I think what the right hon. Gentleman proposes is satisfactory, and will have the effect of stopping unnecessary litigation and enforcing, quite rightly, a penalty on graziers and others who fail to carry out the provisions of the Act.

It seems to me that this Amendment might involve us in. very serious litigation and to prohibition or certiorari in the King's Bench. One would like to know who are the persons in the Department that will exercise these prescribed functions. Of course, anything in the nature of a certificate as to acreage in default in carrying out the Regulations would be entirely within the jurisdiction of the Department of Agriculture. Everyone is aware how very particular the Courts are with regard to enforcing Sections dealing with penalties. I have an Amendment in regard to the Clause which provides that in case of change of ownership the person who is in ownership of the land at the end of the year shall be considered to be liable to the penalty. It might lead to very grave difficulties if the person who is to be found by the Department to be liable for the penalty is at the end of the year the person who is in occupation of the land though he was not the person really in default. We all want to facilitate this Act and to save expenditure.

In regard to the Amendment handed in by the hon. Member, he will see that the Government Amendment, if the Committee approves of it, will remove from the Schedule the words to which he takes objection.

I have looked at the Amendment which has been handed in on behalf of the Government, which says that where there has been a change of occupier during the year the amount shall be payable by the person who was occupier at the end of the year. I do not think that would be desirable, and I think there might be very great difficulty in the King's Bench afterwards. Take the case of a bankruptcy, where the estate would be vested in the official asignee, or the case of death, where it would be vested in the personal representative. If the proposed Amendment is carried I am sure that the Chief Secretary will give us an opportunity of considering the whole proposal.

My hon. and learned Friend will have an opportunity of looking at this. If the Amendment is inserted now I think that he will find no practical objection, unless that which he has raised in reference to the matters just mentioned. That is a matter which we may hold over until the Report stage, and if my hon. Friend desires to move his Amendment then it shall be considered as if it were moved now.

My hon. and learned Friend has referred to the person who is to be made liable. This would be overcome if the right hon. Gentleman would consider before the Report stage some words charging the land, whoever may be the owner. That would get over all difficulty of identifying who is the occupier.

That seems to be an arrangement in the spirit of the suggestion which I have made. Certainly before the Report stage I shall have shown to hon. Members a form of words which may meet the difficulty which my hon. and learned Friend has pointed out.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made in the same paragraph: After the word "seal," insert the words "the acreage thereof."—[ Mr. O'Shee. ]

Leave out from the word "thereupon" to the end of the paragraph, and insert instead thereof the words "and the amount which, in their opinion, ought to be paid by way of penalty in respect of such failure as aforesaid, not exceeding five pounds for each acre of the acreage specified in the certificate and not exceeding a proportionate amount for any fraction of an acre so specified. Upon the making of the certificate the occupier shall become liable to pay to the Department on demand the amount specified therein as aforesaid, and the certificate shall be conclusive evidence of such liability. Where there has been a change of occupiers during the year the amount shall be payable by the person who was occupier at the end of the year."—[ Mr. Duke. ]

There was an Amendment in my name, but I think that it had better stand over until we see the Clause which the Chief Secretary intends to bring up.

I think it would be better to have the appeal to the judge of Assizes. If there is a charge on a farm legal questions might arise, and it might be unsatisfactory not to have it decided by the County Court judge.

There is a difficulty in dealing with it here, but my hon. and learned Friend will not be prejudiced by these words being adopted here; but the words to which my learned Friend takes exception are adopted, and I submit that it is not possible to go back on them at this stage.

I do not wish to move it at present until we see how the Clause will stand.

Further Amendments made: In paragraph (4) leave out the words "such penalty," and insert instead thereof the words "sum payable to the Department under this Schedule."

Leave out the word "penalty" ["such penalty when"], and insert instead thereof the word "sum."—[ Mr. Duke. ]

:I beg to move, in paragraph (7) ( b ), to add the words "to advantage having regard to the qualities of the soil."

The definition of "arable land" in the Irish portion of the Bill is very much too wide. Arable land is described here as land which may be cultivated. If that definition is to be interpreted strictly, it means that an inspector will have power to declare land arable because it might be cultivated, though no man would cultivate it with the idea of making a profit. My hon. Friend the Member for Water-ford has brought under my notice the fact that on the Knockmealdown Mountains in Waterford a great deal of the land which has been reclaimed from heather is cultivated very often by the occupier not for the purpose of making a profit, but for the purpose of preventing it reverting to its original condition. Under this definition of "arable" as it stands in the Bill, it would be in the power of an inspector—and I suppose inspectors are sometimes unreasonable men—to compel one of these occupiers of land such as I have described to cultivate it, and to say that because it was arable, irrespective entirely of whether it was the proper time to have it cultivated again, to prevent it from reverting to its original condition it should be cultivated. As everybody acquainted with agriculture knows, the tendency of land of that character which has been reclaimed, is to revert back. You do not want in cases such as that, that an inspector who knows nothing whatever about the quality of land should be able to harrass the occupier by saying to him, "You will have to cultivate 10 per cent. or 15 per cent. of your holding, including that class of land which I declare to be arable." The President of the Board of Agriculture, I think, in one of the Debates during the progress of the Bill, gave the House to understand that so far as Great Britain was concerned, the inspectors would be composed largely of farmers of the district. In other words, that the inspectors would be drawn largely from the class of men who were themselves practically acquainted with agriculture, and I should be glad if the Chief Secretary or the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture in Ireland will give me an undertaking that when inspectors go round farms to declare what is arable and what is not arable, these inspectors shall be men with practical knowledge of agriculture.

I am not at all satisfied that the inspectors of the Board who have the duty of deciding that are practical men. I have no knowledge that a good many of these inspectors are gentleman who ever cultivated an acre of land in their lives. In fact, I have been given to understand that some of them derive their knowledge of agriculture from the fact that they "were born of agricultural parents, and left their native homes when they were fifteen years of age. If that be so, I do not think that it follows, as a matter of course that, because a man is the son of a farmer, therefore he is a practical farmer himself, and knows all about how land should be cultivated. I do not want to have farmers harassed who have cooperated with the Board of Agriculture in having the prescribed area of their holdings tilled and have shown themselves anxious to co-operate with the Government in the endeavour to have a larger food supply grown in the country. At the same time, I do not want the farmer to be harassed unnecessarily by some unreasonable inspector. Last spring I had brought to my notice the case of a very large land holder who farmed his own land—a country gentleman. First of all, he wanted to till the land himself, but some friend of his said he had better apply to the Department in Dublin, as the quantity of land broken up might not comply with the requirement of 10 per cent. The gentleman did apply to the Department in Dublin, and asked them to send down an inspector, who was to tell him what quantity of arable land was in his possession and the exact acreage for tillage that 10 per cent. would amount to.

I am informed that the inspector did not walk the whole land; he inspected a good many fields from a motor car on the county road, and he informed the occupier that in his opinion, to comply with the requirement, he would have to till ninety acres. I do not know whether that is the general position, but I have been over this land hundreds of times, and I am satisfied that no experienced agriculturist, no man acquainted with tillage farming, and no man who knows what arable land really is—for, in my opinion, arable land means land that nature had adapted to tillage— would have described this land to which I refer as arable land. This ninety acres is unfit to be broken up for tillage. The land holder is no supporter of mine; on the contrary, he is a supporter of the landlords, of the Conservative interest, and of the Unionist party in Ireland; still, I do not want him, any more than anybody else, to be at the mercy of an inspector who is incompetent. If the right hon. Gentleman will give me an assurance that no inspectors unacquainted with practical agriculture will be allowed to determine the question whether or not a man's land is to be broken up for tillage, though it is only fit for grazing, I will not press the Amendment, though I think it is a reasonable one, and that some definition of what is arable land is required. To my mind arable land is land that is capable of being cultivated to advantage. If you leave the Bill as it is, an unreasonable inspector might walk on to a man's holding, which might be a swampy field and wholly unfit for tillage, and say to him that it was arable land. It is for these reasons I feel that the suggestion I make ought to be accepted by the, Government, and if the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary cannot accept the form of words I propose I am quite prepared to accept any other form of words he may suggest if they will achieve my object.

The Schedule proposed contains a definition of what is arable land, and if it was necessary that I should accept the first two words of the Amendment within the ambit of the Bill, the land taken is such as can only be described as arable land, and not any land which could be called arable only by a stretch of the imagination—far from it. When the Defence of the Realm Regulations were being dealt with we considered the form of the Schedule, in order to introduce, in the case of every occupier of land in Ireland, who wanted to borrow and to perform his public duty, a first rate opportunity for tillage. If the definition were made too wide it might lead to litigation. The difficulty, first of all, is that the farmer who has a piece of land has to consider, as a reasonable man, whether he will plough it up or not. The policy of the Department of Agriculture in this case has been not to decide against the man, because, by some stretch of the Regulation, it could be held that it should be taken for tillage. It is not in that sense that the Defence of the Realm Act Regulation would be put in operation; and the security which the hon. Member desires is, I believe, given in the Clause as it exists now. The inspectors sent out by the Agricultural Department would view the land, and, if the occupier was dissatisfied with their decision, he would have the right of appeal to the Department, or the advisory committees, in every part of Ireland—bodies that take a keen interest in this matter. The administration of the Department of Agriculture in Ireland is singularly free from political or other considerations; it is very much under the control of the agricultural interest of the country, and it is at any rate, accessible to the influence of common sense. These are real securities, and they will not be relaxed. Any representations that are made will be carefully considered, and where necessary effective steps will follow. Take the case of a man who has land which he says it is better worth while to keep out of tillage. Everybody who knows anything of Ireland-wonders at the enormous profit derived from grazing lands, and it is a very serious question of policy as to the point where it can be properly said that land is tillage land or grazing. I think the words in the Schedule are needed, and I hope the hon. Member will not press his Amendment.

6.0 P.M.

There is great force in what the Chief Secretary has said, but I think there is something to be said on the other side. I quite agree as to the danger of going too much into definition, which sometimes leads to law suits, but still it is necessary that people should know what arable land really means, and the simpler the definition which is introduced the better. The question raised by this Amendment is simply this, that if you are introducing a definition, then you ought to have a direct definition. Either the land is capable of being tilled, or it is not, and I take that to mean that the land is or is not capable of being properly tilled. There is a great deal of land capable of being tilled, which the Department have never dreamed of acquiring, and there is a great deal of land which they would never take to be tilled. I think it is necessary to have some definition which will come somewhere really near what is meant. The words ought not to be left as they stand, and I think some change is required. The right hon. Gentleman might accept this or a similar Amendment, and as to the question of law suits, it is conceivable that he may have these on the Schedule proposed. While I do not object to what the right hon. Gentleman has said as to the danger of attempting too exact a definition, I think it would be better to have a definition which would come somewhat nearer to the actual conditions.

The right hon. Gentleman has stated that the matter would be considered by an advisory committee. Do I understand that it is the intention to have a committee such as that to help or assist or aid the Department in carrying out their scheme? If it be the intention to have such an Advisory Committee in each county that committee must be composed very largely, if not entirely, of practical farmers. I presume that the inspector would be largely influenced by the committee in determining what was arable land or what was reasonable land to be cultivated, and that if he did not belong to the county and had not local knowledge as to the quality of the soil that he would necessarily be influenced by such a committee composed of practical men. When I put down the Amendment the disadvantages that might arise were quite clear to me, and a great deal of what the right hon. Gentleman has said presented itself to my mind and to the minds of several of my colleagues. There might be cases of good grass land where the occupier would not want to have it cultivated, and where he would say that the land was not arable. I think there is a good deal in what was said by the last speaker that the definition of the Bill will not get you out of some of the difficulties you anticipate. I feel much easier in my mind after the statement about the advisory committee, because my object was to secure that the inspector should be a man of practical knowledge of agriculture and, if possible, of local knowledge. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to give further consideration to my Amendment and see if there is anything in it which qualifies the present definition of the word "arable." If he will undertake to do so before the Report stage I have no desire to press the Amendment. I would ask an assurance from the Vice-President that no inspector will be allowed to roam all over Ireland or any part of it deciding what he thinks well, and perhaps acting very unreasonably in order to justify his own existence, and really making work for himself. Such things have occurred before in Ireland. Several inspectors, as the Vice-President knows, in the past in Ireland, of one kind or another, have acted in most unreasonable fashion because there was no legitimate work to keep them fully employed and they had to do something which was unreasonable to justify their existence.

I appointed seventy-two inspectors last season, and there was no question as to the capacity of those men or as to their knowledge of the land. They were men who had been in the service of the Land Commission and of the Congested Districts Board.

As valuers. I venture to say that of the seventy-two men whom I was responsible for appointing there was not a man of them who could be charged with prejudice or with want of knowledge of the land. Where men generally break down is in their knowledge of and skill in mapping. The inspector's decision as to whether land is arable or not can be challenged, and there can be appeal to the Department, and the Department, if necessary, would send down a man to see whether the inspector was right or not. On the question of inspectors, from my own personal knowledge I can say that those men took the greatest care. In one or two cases their decisions were challenged, and the Department have always taken care that any such case should be inquired into. As to the question of an advisory committee, that was a committee appointed to advise in the administration of the Regulations. There were constantly knotty questions coming up as to which the Department did not care to take the sole responsibility in deciding. We therefore asked eight skilled agriculturists, every one of them tenant farmers who came from different parts of the country and from each province, to assist, and these eight men sat and advised us on an agenda of different points arising in the administration. I sat with those men every week, and I have never seen anything finer than the way in which they dealt with the different questions which arose. They were all experts who had not to go looking for experience and they knew the country. I say that with the inspectors and with an advisory board of capable men, whose names have only to be mentioned to command the respect of the country, there is very little chance of anything going wrong, whatever the definition may be. My own view of the definition is that of the Chief Secretary, that you would get lawsuits instead of settlements, and land might be kept out of tillage, a thing which I know hon. Members below the Gangway opposite have no desire to see.

Amendment negatived.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Schedule, as amended, be the Second Schedule to the Bill."

I desire to say a few words with reference to a question raised by an hon. Member. As far as I could follow the Chief Secretary was asked between now and the Report stage to consider the question of an appeal to the Judge of Assize in the case of all these fines or penalties, because they really are penalties. I am greatly afraid that might develop into a system of law and litigation which would very seriously injure the working of this Clause. I must confess I would have preferred, and do still prefer, if some system could be devised by which the fine of, I think, £5 per acre, on those who refused to carry out the orders of the Department of Agriculture could be charged on the land in the same way exactly as the present levy for malicious injuries, and consolidated with the poor rate. I think that would be the better way than the other proposal. The Chief Secretary's Amendment has greatly improved the position. As I understand it now, the Amendment of the Chief Secretary will do away with these questions of litigation to a large extent. I think it was a very unfortunate provision to insert. If there had been an appeal to the Judge of Assize it would have been responsible for delay. It would have tended to develop law and litigation, which would all very seriously have injured the work of these Clauses.

There is one other point which I do not press at all, but if I myself had been drafting the arrangement I should have preferred to have the levy in aid of the rates. Somehow or other, I think it would make the whole thing work more smoothly and more popularly if you had given the levy by way of assistance to the rates. It brings it more home to the population, and it really would have been the auguration of a system which I dare say, under the Irish Government would have been followed. Personally, I have always thought it desirable that in Ireland there should be a heavier levy on uncultivated grass holdings above a certain size, because, undoubtedly, everybody knows that the great weight of the poor rate in Ireland was largely due, in some districts at all events, to the clearances of these grass lands. The population was swept into the town and there were starved, because of the depopulation of the country the whole of the grazing districts in Ireland were heavily and abnormally taxed. Until the Local Government Act came into operation and redistributed the poor rates as a county at large charge the thing was grossly unfair. The poor rate was out of all proportion, because it fell heaviest on the small farmer. Now that system is done away with by law. In the old days the rich grazing lands escaped the poor rate to a great extent altogether. The old system is done away with; still the old feeling remains that these clearances have been responsible to some extent for the increase in the rates, and I think it would be a good thing for Ireland, whenever there is time for rating reform, which some years ago was indefinitely postponed, to deal with this matter. I should have preferred the Government to have taken the view that I have suggested, and so make a beginning with this. I do not, however, intend to move any Amendment on that point, but I want to press upon the Government the desirability of reconsidering this matter before Report, and so of doing something to decrease litigation.

I desire for a few moments to express my dissatisfaction with the form of this Schedule, and with the power that the Schedule takes. The first paragraph of the Schedule says:— to grant, namely, powers to compel these people to do their duty. They "may" make an Order! I would have the Schedules to read: they "shall" make Orders. Is it not an advantage to the United Kingdom and to the Empire that tillage shall increase? Just let me read a passage or two from a speech made by the Vice-President in 1915, when he was calling upon the farmers in Ireland, from patriotic or other motives, to increase tillage. In this speech, which was delivered at Dundalk on 13th September, two years ago, the right hon. Gentleman said: United Kingdom, and the Empire. They have the opportunity now of putting an end to this wasteful use of the land in Ireland. We have been crying out against it for years. Ever since the Land League was started in 1879 by Mr. Michael Davitt and Mr. Parnell we have been asking for the breaking up of these enormous ranches in Ireland. It is a matter of the greatest possible disappointment to us to find that those who are administering the law, those who are creating a law for the better government of the country, do not take the opportunity to give full power to carry out the intentions that we have always had.

I have risen to express the great disappointment I feel in regard to the way in which this Irish part of the Bill has been finally conducted. I stated in my opening observations that the land of Ireland was going out of cultivation. Let me, in conclusion, read, in proof of my statement, from a Report of the Agricultural Department. It is headed, "Agricultural Statistics of Ireland. 1915," and it says, among other things:

The statistics quoted by my hon. Friend from the Report of the Agricultural Department are certainly not very pleasant. They deserve the strictures he has made upon them. However, we have an entirely different state of things at the present time, for we have increased very considerably the quantity of tillage in Ireland in the direction in which my hon. Friend would wish to move. We have gone forward, but you cannot take a big jump at once in a matter of this sort. You must advance step by step. I hope that following on present circumstances and improvements the effect will be that in the future, when the tillage scheme is in a forward state, we shall produce very much more food than now is produced in Ireland. In order to do that, I think it is well to bring to the notice of the Chief Secretary that there is in this Schedule rather a serious matter. It states here that

"The Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland may make Orders for the purpose of prescribing the minimum tillage portion of holdings, and may make any such Order so as to apply to all holdings throughout Ireland, or to all holdings in any area specified in the Order."

This will give power to apply Orders to all holdings without distinction. I would ask the Chief Secretary, is it fair to apply to the unpurchased tenants in Ireland the same Order to produce food as you apply to the freeholds, the demesnes and the purchased lands. To do that is most unfair. You have tenants in Ireland who have been fortunate enough to purchase their land, having got substantial abatements in their rent, and side by side with those are the unpurchased tenants who have not purchased the land, through no fault of their own, but because their landlords have been unreasonable, and have not given the tenants the opportunity of availing themselves of the Act of Parliament which entitled them to get those abatements.

Under those circumstances, I think it is not fair that in this scheme for increased tillage in Ireland you should make the same demand upon the tenants placed in that position as upon the more fortunate tenants. I am perfectly certain that this is bound to produce a very strong feeling in Ireland, and it is in order to remove any cause of friction that I call attention to this. It is a great injustice and a great hardship upon those farmers in Ireland who have not been allowed to get the benefits and reductions as embodied in your Act of Parliament here, and I suggest that if you expect a large response to your demand, and increased food production in the future, you must complete the land purchase scheme in Ireland and place all land on the same basis. If you do not do that, you are bound to have a feeling of resentment arise, and, I think, very naturally arise. I know myself of very many cases in which tenants have responded to the call for increased tillage in a most remarkable fashion, though, at the same time, they have very strong feelings on this subject. In view of the speech of the Prime Minister, showing the great necessity for Great Britain and Ireland to support itself, and to be independent of the submarine menace, and when you want to try to get all the food you can, and you have the opportunity of getting it, I say that the Irish Government should take into consideration the removing of the obstacle which stands in the way, and put the unpurchased tenant on a level with the purchased tenant, and complete the land purchase scheme in Ireland.

I am quite willing to help the President of the Board of Agriculture in doing all that is necessary to encourage food production, but I cannot understand why this Schedule is made so stringent, and why there should be a desire to make it more stringent. I allude particularly to the speech of the hon. Member for East Mayo, in which he complained about a suggestion made to-night that where there has been a penalty under this Clause an appeal should be given from the County Court. I am entirely at a loss to understand why there should not be an appeal. The whole tendency of modern legislation is to give an appeal. We thought we had won a great victory when a few years ago we got an appeal in very case from the magistrate. This is the case of a penalty imposed by a County Court judge. At present every decree of a County Court judge in Ireland is subject to an appeal both on fact and on law, except that there is one case where there is not an appeal on a question of fact, namely workmen's compensation; but in the case of workmen's compensation there is an appeal on a question of law. With that exception we have in Ireland an appeal in every County Court case both on fact and law. It is a jurisdiction greatly valued in Ireland, greatly availed of, and very little abused. Is there any reason, then, why you should make an Order under this Act and exception from every other Order in Ireland? I see no reason for it; on the contrary, it seems to me that a case of a penalty—and, perhaps, a heavy penalty—is one in which, if a distinction should be made, it should be in the direction of increasing the right of appeal rather than limiting it.

I confess I do not understand why the right hon. Gentleman in drawing his Clause has though fit to announce that in this one case there should be no appeal from the County Court judge. It might be that the number of appeals that could be fruitfully brought would be small, because the certificate of the Department would present a sort of barrier in many cases, it being practically conclusive on questions of fact. But there remain questions of law, and it is inevitable under this Schedule questions of law may arise. A most fruitful subject may arise in those cases where there has been a change of occupiers between the default, which is the subject of the penalty, and the time when the penalty is incurred. This Schedule enacts a very heavy pecuniary penalty, and it goes on to say that that penalty-may be recovered from the person who is entirely ignorant of the offence. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is Irish law!"] It is typically characteristic of the English method of dealing with Ireland. This is not Irish law, but a proposal of this House. Take the common conveyancing case of a transfer of an Irish holding. Apparently when the Act comes into force it will be necessary to ask, "Has the vendor done anything to make the purchaser liable to penalties under the Corn Production Act? If so, give particulars, and let the vendor arrange to indemnify against the penalty." The right hon. Gentleman must see that if this Bill is passed in its present form that will be a necessary inquiry on every transfer of an agricultural holding in Ireland. No purchaser will be safe without a careful inquiry of that kind, because the person who will pay is not the person who committed the offence but the innocent purchaser who has bought the farm from him. I can perceive complication of that kind arising under this Schedule, and it is visible on the face of it, and can the right hon. Gentleman say that this particular class of penalty should be the one from which, once a pronouncement is made by the County Court judge, there is to be no appeal?

I have the greatest respect for Irish County Court judges, who do their work excellently. They are the cheapest and best legal tribunal, in my opinion, in the world. There is no country in the world where small cases coming within the jurisdiction of County Court judges are so cheap, and the administration of which is so effective. Consequently I do not in the least throw any reflection on Irish County Court judges, but we all know judges are liable to make a mistake. If anyone had told us twenty years ago that even in capital cases the High Court of Criminal Appeal would have to reverse sentences of death, no one would have believed it. Until 1908 or 1909, when the Act creating a Court of Criminal Appeal was passed, no one would have believed that possible, but the passing of the Act has shown that the most efficient of English judges will make mistakes even when human life is involved. I hope the right hon. Gentleman when he is considering this Clause before the Report stage will give some consideration to the points which I have raised. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will also consider the advisability of placing the Order of the County Court judges under this Act in the same category as all the other Orders and making it subject to appeal.

I wish to emphasise the words which have been spoken on this point by the hon. and learned Member for Cork. I think the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) was under a misapprehension in reference to the appeal from the County Court. This matter will only come under the administrative portion of the Bill as a liability for penalty, and that may involve questions of the greatest difficulty. When these legal questions have to be determined the penalties may run into vast sums.

I have sat a good many years in this House, and I have listened to a great many Irish grievances, and I always come to the conclusion, after listening with very great interest to the speeches of Irish Members, which are always clear and capable of being understood, that in every case there really is no grievance in the matters to which they refer. After my experience I have come to the conclusion that at last there is an Irish grievance in this case, and I am inclined to be in sympathy with Irish Members. The hon. and learned Member below the Gangway interrupted when I interjected —

I apologise. I interrupted the hon. and learned Member when he said there was to be a penalty upon a certain person, but the person on whom the penalty was to fall was not the person who had committed the crime—I should not call it by such a word, and I should say had omitted to comply with the request of the Department—but the person who had made that omission was not to be fined, and I made the interjection that I thought that was a very Irish proceeding. The hon. and learned Member said that that was not an Irish but an English proceeding, brought forward in an English House of Commons by an English Minister. I have read the Schedule, and I have come to the conclusion that the hon. and learned Member is right and that there is this extraordinary provision in the Bill. There are a larger number of English Members present now, and I would like to read to the Committee the actual words. Sub-section (3) of the second Schedule says:

"(3) If in any year the occupier of a holding fails to cultivate the minimum tillage portion of the holding the Department, after affording him an opportunity of being heard in such manner as may be prescribed by Regulations under this Act, shall ascertain how much of the minimum tillage portion he has failed to cultivate and shall specify the acreage thereof in a certificate under their seal, and thereupon the occupier shall become liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds for each acre of the acreage specified in the certificate and not exceeding a proportionate amount for any fraction of an acre so specified."

That may be right or it may be wrong, but at any rate it seems reasonable that if a request is made that a certain work should be carried out and the person upon whom the request is made fails to comply there should be a certain penalty. Where there has been a change of occupiers during the year, the person who is the occupier at the end of the year is the person liable to the penalty. Now why should a person who has not done what he was told, and has departed from the holding, not be liable to the other person who has come in to continue the occupation, who is perfectly innocent and who may not know that any request has been made by the Department upon the previous occupier; why should he be subject to this penalty? I do not understand what happens in Ireland, but I understand that there is a habit in Ireland on the part of occupiers to change their holding, and it may be difficult to put your finger upon the particular person who ought to be punished. This proposal means that because you cannot find A, who has committed a wrong, you will punish B, who has done nothing wrong at all. I do not think that is consistent with the great legal acumen of the right hon. Gentleman who now occupies the post of Chief Secretary, and I should have thought that he would have found a better way of dealing with this question, which I admit may possibly need some drastic method of procedure. The hon. Member for North Kildare (Mr. J. O'Connor) made a violent attack upon the Chief Secretary for not having taken stronger power to cultivate more arable land in Ireland, and he also said that the land in Ireland was of a very fine description and as good as could be found anywhere in this part of the Globe. I believe he is absolutely correct, but where the land is so valuable as grass land I am rather surprised to hear the hon. Member advocating ploughing it up. I have never been in Ireland myself, but I understand there is a place called the Golden Vale where pasture land lets at something like £3 or £4 per acre. If that is so, I think it would be a great mistake that there should be attempts made to plough up land of that description to grow cereals, which may possibly not be suited to that particular land. I believe Ireland is a very wet country, and if that is so I am not at all sure that that is very good land upon which to grow wheat. Therefore I am inclined to think that the hon. and learned Member for North Kildare was wrong in thinking he had this time discovered an Irish grievance.

Another hon. Member from Ireland who followed rather took the opposite view that it was advisable, at any rate, at the present time, not to convert suddenly a very large part of the land of Ireland from pasture to arable land. I understand there is a difficulty about providing labour in Ireland. The conversion of pasture into arable land would require a great deal of labour, and, therefore, I do not think it would be advisable, under present circumstances, to adopt that policy. It always gives me very great interest to study the various proceedings which go on when Irish questions are before this House. We in England have been crying out during the passage of this Bill against the enormous number of inspectors to be appointed, but our protests have had very little result. The Minister for Agriculture in England has been hardened and he has not done that which we desire, but I gather from the speech of an hon. Member below the Gangway that he objected to the very idea of even the shadow of an inspector coming upon the sacred land of Ireland. Now, I never held the view that if you cannot get a good thing yourself you should not let other people get it. I understand now that the number of inspectors for Ireland is going to be reduced on account of the appeal made by hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. As I have now done something to assist Irish Members on this occasion, I hope, when we try to free the land of England from too many inspectors we shall have the assistance of hon. Members below the Gangway.

Question put, and agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, added to the I Bill.

Bill reported; as amended to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 84.]

New Ministries [Salaries and Remuneration]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]

7.0 P.M.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of an annual salary not exceeding two thousand pounds to the Minister of Reconstruction appointed under an Act of the present Session, and to provide for the establishment of a Ministry of Reconstruction and of other salaries and remuneration which may become payable under such Act."—[ Sir G. Hewart. ]

I have an Amendment, which I should like to move, to leave out "two thousand pounds," and to insert "one thousand pounds."

"Would it not be advisable, first, to allow anyone who has anything to say on the whole question to put forward their view?

I think it would be better if the Amendments were moved first, and the whole question were debated afterwards.

I do not wish to stand in the way of the right hon. Baronet if he wishes to move his Amendment.

Would it not be more convenient for the Amendments to be moved first, and for the general discussion to be taken when they have been disposed of?

That is for the 'Committee, subject, of course, to the choice of the Chair. There is an Amendment to insert after the word "remuneration" the words "not exceeding in the aggregate £20,000." The right hon. Baronet has a manuscript Amendment preceding that, and I have not forgotten it. With regard to the question of any Amendments which may be suggested to the Committee, it will, of course, be open to the Committee afterwards to discuss the Resolution as a whole.

I beg to move to leave out the word "two" ["two thousand pounds"], and to insert instead thereof the word "one."

The country at the present time is spending very large sums of money, and it is spending a very large sum upon expenditure of this kind. I do not know exactly what is the number of Ministers. It was stated the other day by the late Home Secretary (Sir J. Simon) that there were eighty-eight, but my own impression is that there are ninety-one. I admit that I have not added them all up myself—it would take such a long time—but Mr. Gibson Bowles, who is a very industrious person, has apparently done it, and he has arrived at the conclusion that the number is ninety-one, including, of course, these two Ministers to be appointed under this Bill, if this Resolution is carried. I do not myself see on what particular ground, or for what particular reason, the sum of £2,000 is fixed. This new office, the duties of which will be very vague, does not, as far as I understand, carry Cabinet rank. I can remember when I first came into this House, and even for many years afterwards, that the Local Government Board and the Board of Trade, both of which offices carried Cabinet rank, had no greater salary than £2,000 or £2,500. I think, therefore, it would be advisable, when we are creating new offices, that the salary of the Minister at the start should be £1,000 instead of £2,000. Personally, I am against the idea of having a new Minister at all, not only because I think we ought to exercise all the economy which we possibly can, but also because I do not really see that there is any particular necessity for this new Minister. If it were found that the work was very onerous, or that the position was so great that it was necessary to emphasise it by attaching to it a larger salary, there would be nothing to prevent the House increasing it. Of course, it must be remembered that the smaller the salary of the Minister, the smaller probably the expenditure of the Department. As soon as you attach to it a salary which can be considered as implicating that the object is one of importance, and one which in ordinary times would carry Cabinet rank, then immediately all the Under-Secretaries, the Secretary to the Minister, and all those numerous people will require to have larger salaries. The mere fact that you give a Minister a large salary is held to indicate a kind of status and importance, and you thereby create much larger salaries for all the under officials in the Department. I do not know whether Ministers at the present moment pool their salaries.

If they do, I think £1,000 is quite enough. At the present time we are very fond of having token Votes of £5. Why should we not have a token salary of £5? The Minister could pool the £5 with the rest of the Cabinet, and, as there are ninety of them with fairly large salaries, the result by dividing the total by ninety-one would not be so unsatisfactory to this particular Minister. I am not sure that I have not made an error in moving to leave out £2,000 in order to put in £1,000, and that I ought not to ' move to leave out £2,000 in order to put in £5; but as I have moved my Amendment I will not do that. If the Amendment is carried, it will be sufficient to indicate to the Government and to the country that there are in this House at the present moment certain Members who are desirous, not of saying on public platforms that economy should be practised and not of putting up in their windows cards, "Eat less bread," or "Do not dress extravagantly," or some of the various mottoes, excellent in their way, which we see whenever we take our walks abroad, but of really showing to the country that Ministers themselves are prepared to undertake responsible work for more or less moderate salaries.

I must say that I was very much surprised indeed that the Solicitor-General, who I suppose is in charge of the Resolution, did not get up and offer any sort of reply to my right hon. Friend. It does not seem to me to be an example of that courtesy with which the Solicitor-General has invariably on every other occasion treated the House, but perhaps a little later he will feel disposed to answer the arguments of my right hon. Friend. Meanwhile, perhaps I may address to him a point which is pertinent to this matter and as to which I should like to have an answer. A method was suggested in Debate by which this salary could be entirely saved, and the Government have never at any time attempted to make any answer. The suggestion was that the duties of the Minister of Reconstruction should be performed by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, in which case no salary of any sort whatever would require to be paid, and the whole of this £2,000, and not merely £1,000, would be saved to the country. It is a matter of public notoriety that the duties of the Chancellor of the Duchy are very slight. As I understand, he has a little supervision of a Royal estate, he has a certain amount of ecclesiastical patronage up and down the country, he has a certain amount of local patronage in Lancashire—the appointment of justices of the peaces—and once in eight or ten years he has the duty of appointing a Vice-Chancellor. I believe that he also has to select the High Sheriff for Lancashire. That is a very important duty. All those duties, however, ought to be performed for a less salary than £2,000, which I understand is the salary of the Chancellor of the Duchy. For a very long period of time—I cannot say how long, but I believe for much longer than the Parliamentary recollection of any of us—the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has been expected to perform important public functions over and above the duties of his Department. I do not think that there has ever been a time until this last appointment when the Chancellor of the Duchy has not combined some other important duties with those properly appertaining to his office. During the previous Ministry the Chancellor of the Duchy was associated with the Financial Secretary of the Treasury, and by that method the salary of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was saved, because the salary of the Chancellor of the Duchy, coming out of His Majesty's privy purse, is not, of course, charged on the Votes of the country. That is a perfectly clear way by which the whole of this money can be saved to the country, and I think the Government ought to tell us straight out why it is not possible to combine the functions of this Minister of Reconstruction with the office of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.

That is a perfectly relevant argument to the Resolution as a whole, but it is not particularly relevant to the Amendment before the Committee, which is that the salary should be £1,000 instead of £2,000. The hon. Member is directing his attention to the fact that no salary need be paid to the Minister of Reconstruction because the duties can be performed by somebody else. That is not relevant to this particular Amendment.

I would respectfully submit that, at any rate, it has this amount of relevancy, that we can reduce the salary, because by combining the two duties even the reduced salary would be more than adequate. I should like to support my hon. Friend, and I hope that we may have an answer.

I should like to add a few words of appeal to the Solicitor-General to reply to the weighty arguments to which he has listened. He is so reasonable a man—I have often found him so in every Department in which he has shone brilliantly—that I am sure, in listening to the valid arguments for economy and reform in these days, he must be moved. I hope very much that when I sit down he will reply upon this Debate. The Amendment proposed 'is that the Minister of Reconstruction should have only a salary of £l,000 instead of £2,000. I must confess, I think the Gentleman whom they propose to put into this office is well worth £2,000, but then there is the consideration that he is going to pool his salary with a very large number of other Gentlemen receiving much larger salaries. Therefore, we may on this occasion, say that as £1,000 among ninety men is only about £10, and the absolute loss which the right hon. Gentleman, who is proposed for this office will suffer is only about £10, and as that may possibly bring him to a lower standard for Income Tax, and so on, the loss he will personally suffer by our reducing his salary from £2,000 to £1,000 is so slight, that we can divest ourselves of all personal feeling in connection with it. It would be a very satisfactory thing to do, because I have a great regard for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hoxton (Dr. Addison), who is proposed as the Minister of Reconstruction. There is the question which must appeal to some of us, why have a Minister of Reconstruction at all? I understand that that is a matter upon which I can only touch, but I would remind hon. Members that it is in the background, and that it is a very important question. I do not want to enlarge upon a theme which is a fertile one. I have risen chiefly to appeal to the Solicitor-General to give us some encouragement in our efforts directed towards economy and to tell us, even if he cannot accept this Amendment, that he will accept other Amendments in the direction of an economical administration of the Bill we are about to pass.

Surely we shall have' some answer to the very reasonable arguments which have been put before us.

Perhaps we may have it when I finish. The Committee is entitled to some fuller explanation with regard to the salaries of Ministers generally, and this Resolution does give us an opportunity of looking into the matter. Are these smaller salaries pooled, as was intimated by the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King)? I do not know whether he has any private information on the subject.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel), who, of course, is so well-informed about everything that goes on inside the Government, stated that they did pool their salaries. I was under the impression that under the former Coalition Government the arrangement was that only the members of the Government, who then numbered twenty-two or twenty-three, pooled their salaries. It was news to me, and I think to a great many others, that the ninety-nine or the ninety-one or the eighty-nine present Ministers all pooled their salaries, but that, at any rate, is what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy stated.

That is a very interesting statement. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy is so well-informed on these matters. Personally I cannot pick up this information which appears to be going about the House, although I have had a long experience in it. Things are so very strange now. I hope the Solicitor-General will be able to explain how far this pooling extends. There are several highly-paid Ministers who receive £5,000 a year. Then there are other Ministers, who are almost of equal rank, to whom my sympathies always go out, who only get £2,000. I cannot understand why the President of the Board of Education, who occupies an office of the most important national interest, should only get £2,000. Then we see that there are Ministers without portfolios. I suppose that means there are Ministers who do nothing at all. [An HON. MEMBER: "The less they do, the more they get!"] I am very glad that we are to have this very interesting subject, in which the nation takes a deep interest, explained to us by the Solicitor-General. For any information he can give us we shall be thankful. There is one point which, however small in itself, is of great importance in these times—that is, the general question of economy. The Government think that people outside do not care a straw for a trifle of £1,000 or £2,000, or the difference between £2,000 and £5,000. I can assure them that there are vast numbers outside who are greatly interested in this question, and who would be glad to receive some information. I do not know why this ninth Ministry should be formed. I should be glad to see some of those that have been formed done away with altogether. At any rate, if they are to be formed, that should be done with a due regard to economy. When speaking on the Bill I made an appeal to the new Ministers and I am sorry that they were not present to answer me. What is the good of my appealing to the Postmaster-General? Even if he were inclined to agree with me, it would not carry us very far. I appealed to the new Ministers not to take any more than the normal salary of a Member of Parliament— that is, £400—and that during the War they should pass a self-denying ordinance and put it in force. I do not know whether that is too much to ask of the Solicitor-General. He is a legal gentleman and gets more than most men engaged in civil work. If he will express an opinion on that point and on the general question of economy, I am sure the Committee would be delighted. The Committee will remember that we are now on the question of the cost of this vague experiment which the Government is making. I am very glad that my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) has moved to reduce that cost and that he has been so well supported. I would make a strong and, the Committee will be glad to know, a final appeal to the Minister, if possible, to give us some practical result and not merely to say that economy is all very well but we cannot practice it now. I hope he will be able to make some little reduction in order to meet my right hon. Friend.

I hope that I suitably appreciate the compliment (as I certainly feel the responsibility) of being described as most reasonable by the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King). The reason why I did not rise earlier was that on looking at the clock I perceived that there are still remaining something like fifty-five minutes before the hour of 8.15 is reached and I saw no reason why the weighty arguments—I think that was the term employed—to which I have been listening for twenty minutes should not be continued for at least a little longer period. With regard to the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), it is always a pleasure to reply to him. As was said of another famous person, he is always good-natured and sometimes almost trustworthy. I think it was Dr. Johnson who said that every man has some time in his life an ambition to be a wag. I am glad to have been present in the Committee when that moment overtook my right hon. Friend. But I must expostulate with him upon what I can only describe as his culpable generosity. He started by saying—and I am sure that in saying it he was perfectly sincere—that he was against the appointment of a Minister of Reconstruction altogether. That, no doubt, is a perfectly intelligible though an extremely deplorable attitude of mind. What I do not understand is why, holding that view, he should go on to suggest a Token Vote of £5. He said— I have not been able to check his arith- metic, but for the moment I assume it is correct—that there are ninety-one Ministers, and he proposed a Token Vote of £5. If salaries were pooled and the £5 were put into the pool that would be something over one shilling apiece.

I ask, Is it proper that the right hon. Baronet, whose zeal for economy is well known, should propose that reckless expenditure upon the provocation of the appointment of a Minister who he began by saying is wholly unnecessary? The culpable profusion of my right hon. Friend is far worse than that, because, although his speech was directed, first, to the proposition that there should be no such Minister at all, and, secondly, that he should not contribute more than £5 to the pool, the Amendment he was supporting was an Amendment to give him £1,000. I need not dwell further upon the inconsistency of that speech. With regard to what was said by the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt), that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster could easily perform these duties, I regret that my right hon. Friend is not here, it is so easy for members of the Committee who do not happen to be Chancellors of the Duchy of Lancaster to take a cheerful view of the duties of that office. I myself am comparatively a stranger to them, but I believe them to be most onerous. Somebody said in this House the other day that the duties of that office could be performed by an able-bodied man in the space of one week in the year. My criticism upon that remark is that they could be neglected by a man for the whole space of a year. I am assured by my right hon. Friend who is the Chancellor of the Duchy—I regret his absence for the moment—that the duties of his office are far more arduous than was represented. The question now is not whether the Chancellor of the Duchy should hold this office, but whether the salary should be £2,000. As there now remain only forty-five minutes until the hour of 8.15 is reached, and as it is perfectly apparent that if a Minister of Reconstruction is to be appointed a salary of £2,000 is absurdly modest, and as the question whether a Minister of Reconstruction should be appointed is not now the question before the Committee, I feel that I cannot usefully add anything further.

When the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Churchill) held the distinguished post of Chancellor of the Duchy he felt that it was not worthy of his great ability because it occupied so little of his time. If the hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir G. Hewart) wishes to know how much work this job involves he had better consult the Minister of Munitions. I agree that a salary of £1,000 a year is not very much for the position of Minister of Reconstruction, and if you are to have a Minister of Reconstruction I suppose he is entitled to the lower scale of the general run of Ministerial salaries. But I should like to be enlightened on one point. This is a time of economy, and the last Government adopted the policy of receiving a fourth of their salaries in Exchequer Bonds. If I could be Assured that the present Government is following that very excellent precedent I might be induced to support them and vote for the £2,000 being retained. If the Government are not following that precedent but are taking the whole of their salaries in cash they are departing from a very excellent principle and showing their contempt for economy.

Question put, "That the word 'two' stand part of the Question."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 152; Noes, 32.

Division No. 83.]

AYES.

[7.31p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

Blair, Reginald

Dalrymple, Hon. H. H.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Bliss, Joseph

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Boyton, James

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Archdale, Lieut. Edward M.

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Astor, Hon. Waldorf

Bridgeman, William Clive

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E)

Broughton, Urban Hanion

Denniss, E. R. B.

Baldwin, Stanley

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Barnett, Captain R. W.

Chancellor, Henry George

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs)

Chapple, Dr. William Allen

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Beale, Sir William Phipson

Clynes, John R.

Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Essex, Sir Richard Walter

Bennett-Goldney, Francis

Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

Falconer, James

Bentham, G. J.

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Fell, Arthur

Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

Bigland, Alfred

Cory, James Herbert (Cardiff)

Foster, Philip Staveley

Bird, Alfred

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Galbraith, Samuel

Black, Sir Arthur W.

Crooks, Rt. Hon. William

Gardner, Ernest

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Stewart, Gershom

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Middlebrook, Sir William

Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald

Greig, Colonel J. W.

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Hambro, Angus Valdemar

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Ches., Knutsfd.)

Hanson, Charles Augustin

Needham, Christopher T.

Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central)

Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Haslam, Lewis

Parrott, Sir James Edward

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Henry, Sir Charles

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.)

He wart, Sir Gordon

Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Hill, Sir James (Bradford, C.)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Tickler, T. G.

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Perkins, Walter F.

Touche, Sir George Alexander

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Pratt, J. W.

Toulmin, Sir George

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Hudson, Walter

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Incs.)

Hume-Williams, W. E.

Randles, Sir John S.

Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert M.

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Wardle, George J.

Ingleby, Holcombe

Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon)

Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.)

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

Reid, Rt. Hon. Sir George H.

Weigall, Lieut.-Col. William E. G. A.

Jones H, Haydn (Merioneth)

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Williams. Thomas J. (Swansea)

Jones, William S. Glyn-(Stepney)

Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M.

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Kenyon, Barnet

Robinson, Sidney

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Layland-Barratt, Sir F.

Russell, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W.

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Levy, Sir Maurice

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

Wolmer, Viscount

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Worthington Evans, Major Sir L.

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Samuels, Arthur W.

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Younger, Sir George

M'Callum, Sir John M.

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Yoxall, Sir James Henry

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Shaw, Hon. A.

Maden, Sir John Henry

Shortt, Edward

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Magnus, Sir Philip

Spear, Sir John Ward

Colonel Craig and Mr. Parker

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Steel-Maitland, Sir A. D.

NOES.

Anderson, W. C.

Hogge, James Myles

Molteno, Percy Alpert

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G.

Holt, Richard Durning

Nolan, Joseph

Boland, John Pius

Houston, Robert Paterson

O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)

Clive, Capt. Percy Archer

Hunt, Major Rowland

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Crumley, Patrick

Jowett, Frederick William

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Cullinan, John

Joyce, Michael

Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Doris, William

Keating, Matthew

Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

Field, William

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Wright, Henry Fitzherbert

Fleming, Sir John

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Fletcher, John Samuel

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Pringle and Mr. King.

Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.)

Molloy, Michael

I beg to move, after the word "remuneration," to insert the words "not exceeding in the aggregate twenty thousand pounds."

I think this Amendment is even better than the one which the House unfortunately and unwisely has just defeated. I propose not to limit the amount of the salary of the Minister but to limit the total amount which may be expended under this Bill by the Ministry of Reconstruction to the sum of £20,000. Until a few years ago it was practically the invariable practice, when a Bill was introduced which necessitated a new charge on Parliament, and therefore a Money Resolution, that some limiting figure should be inserted. I have only been in Parliament about eight years but I remember a lesson which the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) taught me on one occasion when he submitted, on a Money Resolution being put to the House of a quite indefinite and undefined amount that it was against the practice and principles not only of Parliament but of proper economy. I am not quite sure whether he did not invoke the memory and authority of Mr. Gladstone in his behalf. He made a great impression on me, and I have always felt that it is one of the unfortunate tendencies of this time that when we establish a new Ministry, as we do every two or three weeks now, or establish some new Bill which sets up a lot of inspectors, like the Mental Deficiency Act, we get into the habit of passing Money Resolutions without any limit at all. Those were the days before the War when we had abounding income, when the revenue went up by leaps and bounds, and when we had a democratic Chancellor of the Exchequer who, by another screw of the taxing wrench, could easily get more money out of a wealthy community. But in these days, when we have got an enormous burden of taxation both present and even still more prospective, we ought, if possible, to go back to the old practice of the past and to say that in future Bills and Ministries—we will have them if they are necessary, and if they can be justified to the House we will even allow new charges to be placed upon the taxation of the country, but we will, in every case where it is possible, fix a limit, and say to the Gentlemen who spend our money, and sit from time to time on the Treasury Bench, "thus far shalt thou go and no farther."

Notice taken that forty members were not present. House counted, and forty members being found present—

I was saying that really this is a most appropriate time for us to begin introducing the old practice of limiting expenditure under new Acts of Parliament. I really appeal very earnestly and seriously to the Home Secretary to give some encouragement to the principle. I suggest £20,000. My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) has, by an Amendment which he has put down to the Bill, suggested the sum of £5,000. I should be very glad if any Ministry of Reconstruction could be carried on at all for such a figure, but I am not wedded to any particular figure so much as to the principle. I am a man of principle. My attention for details is considerable when details are important, but on this occasion I do not think the detailed figure we should put into this Resolution is so important as the principle, and I do most earnestly ask the Home Secretary if he cannot accept my figure of £20,000 to suggest one himself. If he cannot do so now, can he by the Report stage? There is also this fact to which I an induced to call attention, because it so strongly reinforces my argument. I mean that the work of the Ministry of Reconstruction will in many directions obviously overlap the work of other Departments. Take, for instance, an actual inquiry which has been set on foot just recently by the Committee of Reconstruction in the Cabinet, of which the Prime Minister was until recently, and perhaps is still, the chairman. They have started an inquiry into the Poor Law, and the means and objects of giving poor relief or relief to persons in indigent circumstances. What is there to prevent the Local Government Board also starting an inquiry on exactly the same lines and exactly the same subject, and the very fact that at the present time Ministers who were in the Cabinet and were by the old system of Cabinet control prevented from undertaking inquiries of that kind are now absent we may find as the result of that that very likely a Committee or inquiry will be started by the Ministry of Reconstruction on the same subject.

Yes, as to how the cider is grown there. I should be very glad to give my valuable evidence before a committee on such a subject as that. Why should we not have an inquiry by the Board of Agriculture, and another inquiry by the Board of Education, and another inquiry upon a kindred subject by the Ministry of Reconstruction? It is perfectly obvious that if you want to prevent overlapping, and by that means to prevent waste of public money, you must have some control of this kind. Cabinet control, as we alt know, which co-ordinated the different Departments has been relaxed.

My hon. Friend says "scrapped," and I think that is probably the right expression. If you want to promote economy and efficiency—and I believe they will always go together—you must introduce some figure of this kind into the Resolution. I see my right hon. Friend (Mr. McKenna) smiling at me. I hope it is with approval, because, if not, let me tell him that I consider this no-laughing matter. I consider it a most serious matter because it means that here we have a chance of putting a limit to extravagance, here we have a chance of insisting that there shall be no over lapping between the different Departments, and here we have a chance of promoting efficiency at the present time— and let us take the opportunity. There is one more consideration which I shall venture to put before the Committee, and it is this: These reconstruction inquiries that have been going on have, for some most extraordinary reason that I cannot understand, been kept a profound secret. We have hardly been allowed to know that there was an inquiry of any kind going on, and if you have a friend, as I have many friends, members of the committees that have been set up, they bring a paper out of their pocket and tell you, as if it were some secret, what they are inquiring into, and you are shown the terms of reference as something you must not tell about for fear that it will get to the knowledge of the Kaiser or Hindenburg. The amount of secrecy that has been introduced into these reconstruction inquiries is, to my mind, altogether wrong, and it tends obviously to a great deal of expense and overlapping. I believe that if we set a limit to the expenditure we shall only have those inquiries made which are most desirable, that we shall only have them made in conjunction with the other Departments which themselves might be inquiring, and that they will not in that way cause the unnecessary friction which will inevitably arise if we have, say, on the matter of the Poor Law the Local Government Board instituting one inquiry and getting one scheme out, getting perhaps even a Bill into draft, while at the same time similar inquiries on the same subject are instituted by the Ministry of Reconstruction. I hope I have said enough to show that it will be a very good thing for this House if we can go back to the old principle of setting into the money Resolution for a new Ministry or a new Bill some definite and clear figure as to the amount of expense to be allowed when it sets up a new service like this.

I am sure there will be general agreement with the hon. Member in his anxiety to prevent overlapping, but I would submit that there is no question that this House can consider of such vital importance at the moment as the question of reconstruction. There may be legitimate criticism, if you like, upon the composition of the Committee, but after all even on the expenditure of one Committee alone—and let me take that—I venture to assert it is worth more than the total amount included by the hon. Member's Amendment. What is called the Whitley Report which was a Sub-committee of the Reconstruction Committee has prepared machinery that will do more to settle the differences between capital and labour than any other recommendation that has ever been made.

If my hon. Friend will show me that the Reconstruction Committee does not require a Ministry, very well, but I am going to submit that it does require someone with an authority and power to act. As a matter of fact with that particular Report it was hung up for months because the Minister responsible then as the head of the Reconstruction Committee was not in the position that he ought to be in as a Cabinet Minister.

I mean the present Secretary of State for India. At all events, my point is that I do say seriously, as a member of the Reconstruction Committee myself, that I happen to know some of the work and the long hours that are put in, and beyond that I absolutely submit that the work they are doing is essential, necessary, and vital if we are going to prevent some of the disasters that are likely to follow this War. My hon. Friend might reasonably say, "Yes, but why argue this when I agree to all you are saying except that I want to limit it to £20,000?" Is that really the proposal? Is not the mere figure of £20,000 a phrase rather than anything else? [HON MEMBERS: "No!"] I submit it is, because if you are going to hamper the work of the Committee by the expenditure of another £10,000, I am sure the House would agree that it would be absurd to do it, while, on the other hand, if the work could be done without the expenditure of £20,000, it would be done. I do not think a, figure of this kind should be mentioned. I am prepared to hear what the hon. Gentleman says about the Ministry as a whole, but I think that, having agreed to the principle that there should be a Reconstruction Department with a Minister, it is absurd to limit it to the expenditure outlined by the hon. Gentleman.

8.0 P.M.

I recognise fully the spirit in which this Amendment has been moved, and the good humour of the speech with which it has been recommended to the Committee. I understand the hon. Gentleman does not press the particular figure that is before us, but that he desires to affirm on this occasion the general principle that in every case where a new Ministry or work is set up, or, indeed, in every case where, I suppose, expenditure is sanctioned, there shall be beforehand some limit. I am not going to argue with him whether his general principle is right or wrong. I think there have been occasions when I, like others, have supported a limited expenditure where a particular kind of new work has been proposed, but I do desire to suggest to the Committee that, whatever may be the value of that principle, this is a most unhappy occasion on which to give effect to it. This is a new field of operations altogether. We are setting up a Minister who shall do work that has not heretofore been done by any Minister, because the occasion has not arisen. We are going, therefore, into a new and untried field, and I think it is very dangerous and undesirable to limit the expenditure to a figure unless you have before you the data that will enable the Committee to fix upon the figure as sufficient. If you do that without fully considering the matter, you may do a good deal of harm. This figure, if passed, would cover not only the cost of the Minister himself and of his staff, and of housing the staff— which, I am happy to say, I have been told is likely to be exceedingly small— but it would also cover all the work of the Minister, the investigations which he will make, the expert advice which he will require, and the experiments which he will have to initiate in order to arrive at his conclusions, and it is almost impossible to say in advance exactly what sum would cover the work which has to be done. I agree that work ought not to be duplicated in the manner which has been sketched by the hon. Member who moved the Amendment, but you must not forget this, that the House has well-understood and well-tried checks upon expenditure.

When we have the Minister he will be here, and will have to submit Estimates to the House for the work to be done under his control, and he will have to explain and defend those Estimates. As regards the ordinary daily expenditure, he will have the check, sometimes the very stringent check, of Treasury control. He will have to submit his salaries and payments, before he incurs them, for Treasury sanction, and, in that way, and in others, he will be subjected to somewhat severe checks before he incurs any liability. Without disputing the general prinicple, I do suggest to the Committee that when, as on this occasion, you are going in for work which, as the right hon. Member for Derby said, may be of vital importance within the next few years to the future of this country, it is very wrong, without full data, to attempt to limit in advance expenditure on this Ministry. I can only say I am quite sure that the Minister will, in advance, take all possible pains to limit expenditure and to exercise all the economy which he reasonably can. I hope the Committee will not think it necessary to limit the sum.

The right hon. Gentleman has given us the reply to which we are accustomed on Amendments of this kind. He has pointed out, as has been pointed out by many Ministers from that bench, the great checks which are supposed to exist upon Departmental expenditure. He has told us of the control which we, in this House, have over Estimates, and of the control which is also exercised by the Treasury. But everybody knows that these checks have been proved by experience to be illusory. There is no better evidence of their utter futility than the fact that during the past few days the House of Commons have found it necessary to set up a new Committee to see if better and more trustworthy safeguards cannot be devised for the purpose of controlling expenditure. I should have thought, in view of that decision on the part of the Government and the House, that the right hon. Gentleman would have spared us the account of these old and illusory checks. On the last occasion on which a new Ministry was established, that of National Service, a similar attempt was made to limit the expenditure, and very much the same reply—I think, if Hansard is consulted, that will be found— was made by the right hon. Gentleman. We were then told that the Minister of National Service would have to submit to this House estimates of the expenditure incurred by that Department. First of all, we know this, that that Minister has never come to the House; in the second place, there has never been an opportunity of discussing the Estimates of National Service. We know what a farce the Department has been; we know that it has been the greatest waste of public money which has been perpetrated in the course of the War. Efforts have been made to obtain a discussion of the Estimates for that Department, but the Government has set its face against any attempt to ascertain what money has been spent by the Department, and we are face to face tomorrow with a Motion, curtailing the time of Supply, which will make it absolutely impossible to have any real discussion this Session upon that monstrous waste of public money. Yet, in face of that, the most recent and flagrant instance of the hopeless futility of existing checks, my right hon. Friend once more endeavoured to persuade the Committee that these useless checks are of some account in preventing reckless expenditure on the part of Departments. He has told us that it is extremely difficult to give any estimate. Well, we all know that. But, on the other hand, it is extremely important, in the case of a Department of this kind, that some sort of estimate should be framed of what is going to be spent. This is a Department of a very extraordinary character. It is not limited in its scope. It surveys the whole field of our domestic concerns and, I believe, even of our national concerns. It may, for example, enter upon an investigation of how our foreign diplomacy is conducted. It may decide to call evidence regarding the whole of the diplomatic and consular service, if it has a mind to do so; and I should think that probably there is more reason to investigate that matter, with a view to adopting a policy of reconstruction in that Department, than in almost any other. In the same way, it might start an inquiry into the matter of the relations between the different parts of the Empire—

May I interrupt the hon. Gentleman for a moment. During the Debate on the Second Reading, one of the supporters of this Bill suggested the promotion of cotton-planting in the Soudan.

Well, that is one particular instance. That is an illustration of what might be done, and a very useful thing too. But we want to know what is intended. They might have an inquiry regarding the whole question of the relations of the various parts of the Empire to one another. First of all, of the self governing Colonies; and, secondly, as to whether our method of governing what are known as the Crown Colonies should not be overhauled and reconstructed. Equally, they might have a reconstruction inquiry into the circumstances of the great Dependency of India, and into the Protectorate of Egypt. These are all illustrations of how wide the field is. We have, in addition, all the questions of external trade. I think one Committee has been dealing with these questions already, and some Report has already been issued, with somewhat doubtful advantage and good to this country and to our Allies. In fact, I believe it would have been a good thing if that Report had never been published. But all this simply illustrates how wide and how far-reaching may be the schemes of investigation upon which an ambitious Minister may enter, if no check is imposed on the expenditure he may incur. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the work of the Ministry being work of investigation, and of the experiments which the Minister might initiate. I regard the work of experiment as one of very ill-omen. An experiment, in its initial stages, may be a very small matter; but very often it has been found, in the past, that schemes which have been entered upon merely as experiments have extended far beyond what might be properly described by the name of experiment. Undoubtedly, the tendency will be to extend the range of these experiments, unless a check, such as my hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset has suggested, is imposed.

We have had the appearance in this Debate of my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, in what is now a fairly common role of his—as a protector and defender of the Government. Indeed, it is obvious that in these days the Government should welcome reinforcement from any quarter, being in extremis. It showed a spirit of great chivalry on the part of the right hon. Gentleman to come to the succour of the Government of which he refused to be a member. That was a great, chivalrous, and benevolent feeling, but at the same time the defence which he offered is, on analysis, really of very little value with reference to the matter before the House. He told us that great work has already been achieved, that many of these committees have produced valuable Reports, and that these valuable Reports will be of the utmost value to the Government—whoever may constitute the Government—in the days following the War, in producing a state of contentment and prosperity in this country. I have no desire to discourage any of these Reports, and I am quite prepared to endorse everything that has been said by my right hon. Friend on the Whitley Report; but his contention upon that is really irrelevant to this Debate. That Report was produced without having any Ministry at all; without having all this elaborate machinery and additional expenditure. If you can get these results on this small expenditure of money, why is it necessary to set up a Ministry, to have a new horde of officials, and, it may also be, to requisition a new set of hotels? All these things, which, as my right hon. Friend so truly said, are not arguments in favour of allowing this Resolution to be passed by the Committee without any limitations; they are arguments against the whole policy of the Bill, because they prove what can be done without this elaborate machinery of additional expenditure. They are, however, in reality arguments in favour of a limitation such as the hon. Member for North Somerset has mentioned. He has mentioned the figure of £20,000, and I think that is quite a reasonable figure in view of the fact that this Ministry is really going to have no executive functions. Its proper work will undoubtedly be the work of inquiry. In so far as it is going to initiate experiment, I think it is the duty of this Committee to discourage experiment, because experiment is likely to lead to useless and wasteful expenditure. But in the matter of inquiry, it is obviously essential that these investigations should be carried through upon as economical a basis as possible, and if they are carried through on an economical basis, there has been no reason whatever put forward to this Committee—

It being a Quarter-past Eight of the clock, and leave having been given to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10, further proceeding was postponed without Question put.

War Cabinet

Absence of Member Abroad

I beg to move: "That this House do now adjourn."

I wish to make it perfectly clear at the outset that, in moving this Motion, I had no intention, neither had my hon. Friends any intention, of making any attack either upon the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson) or upon the hon. Members who accompanied him to Paris. Any such idea is entirely absent from my mind. My quarrel in this matter is wholly and entirely with the Government. It may be said that this matter has been raised in the absence of the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Members who accompanied him. If that is so, and it is so, so far as I am concerned it is entirely because I believed that what was going on in Paris was prejudicial to the supreme interests of the nation at tins stage of the War. If I am right that mischief was going to accrue the only thing to do, so far as I can see, was to arouse the concern of the House upon this matter at the earliest possible moment. Unfortunately, the House has not had the opportunity of discussing this matter until after the Paris meetings have arrived at their conclusions. Therefore, in my opinion, at any rate, mischief has already been done which might have been prevented. I heard a report this afternoon—I do not know whether it is true or not—that had it not been for the concern shown by this House in the last few days over this matter the hon. Members who are back with us tonight would have been now on their way to Italy. That may be so or not. I do not know, but I do submit that great mischief has been done and that it might have been prevented if the Government had made up their minds and had refused to allow passports to be issued to the hon. Gentlemen who were going to Paris, and they might have disavowed the whole business.

Where is the War Cabinet? There is not a single member here now.

I raise this solely on the ground of the action or inaction of the War Cabinet in regard to this matter.

I desire to move to report Progress. There is not a single member of the War Cabinet here to pay-due respect to the House of Commons when a question of this kind is under consideration.

The hon. Member cannot move to report Progress. No Motion for Adjournment of the Debate can be made until there is a Question before the House.

We are often told that it is the duty of every loyal and patriotic citizen to support the Government in time of war, whatever they do or do not do, and to support them blindly. I dissent from that view. I say that it is our duty to support the King's Government in the prosecution of the War, and when we honestly and sincerely believe that what the Government are doing is not in the supreme interest of the nation in carrying on the War, it is not our duty to support them, but it is our duty to protest against such action, and, if necessary, to oppose the Government. The only issue I desire to raise is the action or inaction of the Government, and I wish to ask these questions at once.

Perhaps under the circumstances, seeing that a member of the Cabinet has now entered the House, I may be allowed to repeat myself to the extent of saying that my quarrel and the quarrel of my Friends in this matter is with the Government, and with the War Cabinet, and not with the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle or any of the hon. Members concerned in this Paris meeting. I propose to ask at once this question: Is the action of the Government in allowing the right hon. Member to take a prominent pacifist Member of this House to Paris to discuss the situation with French and Russian Labour representatives, helpful or harmful to the interests of the nation at this crisis? I believe there can be only one answer, and I shall endeavour to show why I hold that view. I should like to refer to another point, and that is the unconstitutional action of the Government. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has informed us that the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle on this occasion in Paris was acting not as a member of the War Cabinet, but as the secretary of the Labour party. I should like to know the constitutional authority for such a statement. Since when are Ministers able to take off their hats and coats and put on others, and to speak as secretaries of Labour parties or any other organisations whatsoever? Have the Government collective responsibility or have they not? We want to know where we are in this matter.

I wish to go on now to what seems to me to be the heart of the question. Did the Government authorise this mission to Paris or did they not? We have been told by the Leader of the House that arrangements were made for it without the knowledge of the Government. That is not all. We were also told by my right hon. Friend that the Government could have interfered by refusing to give passports. If they could have interfered, then they knew the mission was going to Paris and, knowing, they did nothing. Therefore, I claim that they gave a tacit sanction to the mission by refraining from refusing passports to the hon. Members. Further, they not only gave tacit consent to the holding of the meetings but they, gave tacit assent to the inclusion of the members who accompanied the right hon. Gentleman, because they must have asked for and obtained their passports. The Government were in the position to know who were going. Who actually was included in this party? Amongst them was an hon. Member of this House who has never concealed his views with regard to the War, and whose views were actually being expressed by himself and by his Friends and being refuted and denounced by the Government from that bench on the very eve of the Government giving him a passport to go to Paris.

Then what of the conference—of the transactions at this meeting? I can only speak from telegrams which I have seen in the Press. These tell us that the conference was held to arrange an international meeting at Stockholm—that is to say, a meeting at which members from the enemy countries will be present—and that a committee was appointed to determine the place and date of this international conference. Note who were the members, according to the telegrams, of this conference. From Russia there were Mr. Ehrlich and Mr. Goldenberg. Ehrlich is, I believe, a democratic leader, and Goldenberg a revolutionary leader. But I need not enter into that any further, for the House will, I have no doubt, notice how thoroughly Russian the names of those two gentlemen are. From England there were the Chairman of the Labour party and the hon. Member for Leicester. We all know the vigorous view of the Chairman of the Labour party with regard to pressing on the War. That being so, it is a matter of regret in this House that his vote and influence were counteracted by his colleague, who has been well known as a pacifist leader in this country.

The hon. Member for Leicester at a time when he was sitting in this conference in Paris was actually billed and his absence was apologised for at a meeting in Leicester— so the newspaper reports say—on behalf of the peace propaganda, which so outraged the feelings of this country that there was a riot in London, and there was opposition to these meetings where they took place all over the country.

As to the French members, one of them I believe is a well-known pacifist, and I am sure that he is not the man whom our French Allies would choose to settle for them their destiny in this matter. This conference decided that an international conference shall take place in Stockholm in September. I ask the House to note the "shall." These gentlemen are above all Governments, because they must be aware that none of us can leave the country without the permission of the Government. We cannot go out of this country unless permission is given to us by the Government, but these gentlemen are in a position to say that an international conference—that is to say, a conference with German Socialists present—shall take place, and we have as a party to this agreement a Minister of the Crown who is a party to the holding of a conference at which Englishmen are to meet Germans! At the very moment when our gallant troops are doing everything they can to beat the Germans in the field a member of the Government contemplates an arrangement by which Englishmen shall meet Germans around a table, at a time when the soil of the Allies has been devastated and desecrated by the German enemy, who still proclaim that they are the victors in this struggle. It is unthinkable that this House and this nation should not have an opportunity of saying what they think of such a proposal. We shall, no doubt, hear in the course of the evening what the Labour party have to say as to these views being representative of organised labour in this country. They will, no doubt, tell us that. We do not even require to wait to be told, because we know from a meeting that they held only this year in Manchester that, by an overwhelming majority, they turned down this project of an international conference, and that the organised labour of this country is wholly opposed to this proceeding. We can feel equally confident that our fellow countrymen throughout the Empire are against any such proposals of Englishmen meeting Germans unconnected with the Government in time of war.

The Leader of the House informed us yesterday that he had no information whatever as to what has taken place in Paris. Those of us who saw the telegrams in the newspapers, and had time to read them, are therefore in a more favourable position than my right hon. Friend. But I submit, with all respect, that it was the duty of the Government to know all that was going on at that conference, and that we are entitled to demand explicit statements from the Government, here and now, that they will not allow any Englishman to go and meet Germans at Stockholm during this War, and that, if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle has committed himself to a conference at which Germans are to be present, he will either retract that, or that the Government will ask him to resign his office. I would like to ask the Government whether they approve of an international conference as opposed to an inter-Allies conference. If they do, what does it mean? It seems to me to mean that they are delegating their power to a new authority, and that these conferences are undermining the authority of governments. Do they expect the House to believe that a conference at which a Minister of France and a Minister of England were present can be regarded by the world as one of which the Governments concerned had no knowledge? The French Prime Minister has laid down clearly French policy in regard to this matter. M. Ribot has said that he will not allow any French pacifist to engage in secret labour diplomacy. We are entitled to ask for an equally explicit statement from the British Government. If we had had some such statement of policy on this matter a little sooner we should not have drifted into the position in which we are at present, and I say that it is the Government, and the Government alone, which is responsible for the amazing situation that has shocked every Englishman.

I wish very briefly to second the Motion, which has been proposed so ably. I do so because I consider that the House and the country are entitled to receive from the Government and the War Cabinet a full and frank explanation of the circumstances in which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, who, we all know, is a Member of the War Cabinet and cannot divest himself of his official responsibility at will, went recently to France, accompanied by the hon. Member for Leicester, whose pacifist proclivities are well known to this House, and attended an international conference in Paris. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition told us the other day that he and his fellow Members of the War Cabinet knew nothing whatever—

I beg pardon—Leader of the House. Perhaps I am only anticipating. The right hon. Gentleman told us that the Government knew nothing whatever of the Conference with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle was going to attend, or the aims and objects with which it was convened, but he told us that their colleague, the right hon. Gentleman, went entirely on his own responsibility, and that the Cabinet accepted no responsibility whatsoever for anything he was likely to say or do at this conference. From information, however, which has subsequently transpired, which information seems to have come to the ears of a great many people, though it does not appear to have come to the ears of the War Cabinet, it would appear that it was a conference of Socialist and pacifist delegates from Russia, France, and England, and that one of the objects if not the only object they had in view in meeting together in Paris, was to make arrangements for the holding of a further conference at Stockholm in September, at which not only the delegates from the allied countries were to be present, but also delegates from enemy countries. And I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle is party to the appointment of a sub-committee to make all arrangements for this Stockholm conference, which is to be attended, as the House has been already told, by a number of Russian delegates with very German names, and certain Socialist delegates from France, and one or two well-known pacifist Members of this House—I believe two, the Member for Leicester and the hon. Member for Stockport.

But at all events this sub-committee was empowered, with full concurrence and approval of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, to make all arrangements for the Stockholm conference, and to lay down the conditions under which the delegates from friendly countries, from Russia, and other allied countries were to meet the delegates from enemy countries. I say with the greatest respect to the War Cabinet and to the right hon. Gentleman, that this was a most improper proceeding on the part of any member of the War Cabinet, especially at the present critical stage of the War. I further say that the other member of the War Cabinet ought not to have allowed such a vitally important step to be taken by any member of that body, without the full knowledge, sanction, and approval of them all. It is all very well to say that the right hon. Gentleman attended this conference as the secretary of the Labour party, but I submit that it is impossible for him to act in this dual capacity. When he attempts to do so, the duties and responsibilities which devolve upon him in one position must necessarily, sooner or later, conflict with those which devolve upon him in the other capacity, and it seems abundantly clear to me that he ought to resign one position or the other, so that we and he may know exactly where we stand. Personally I do not desire to press for his resignation as a member of the War Cabinet or to press, for that matter, for the resignation of anybody else; but I do say, in view of what is happening and in view of the misunderstandings which are likely to arise from it, the Government should ask him to relinquish his position as secretary to the Labour party so long as he continues in the War Cabinet. And, further, I say that they ought to give an assurance to this House that in future any negotiations which may have to be conducted between this country and any foreign country, whether they be friendly countries or enemy countries, especially on delicate matters connected with the War, should be conducted by the Government itself or by its accredited representatives.

I trust I may have the indulgence of the House in having to address it under rather exceptional circumstances; and I want to express my personal gratitude to Mr. Speaker for having assisted in obtaining for me this opportunity.

I think it would have been much more satisfactory if, when an issue had been raised involving not only the position of the Government, but my own relationship to the Government and the great movement with which I have been associated so long, judgment had been suspended until the case has been heard. The Mover of the Motion seems to have come to the conclusion that already a great amount of mischief has been done by the visit to Paris without informing himself of the object of the meeting; and he also made the statement, based, I suppose, on newspaper report, that unless this demand had been presented to the House the other delegates would by this time have been on their way to Italy. I want to say that that statement is absolutely incorrect. There was no intention whatever of any single member of the delegation representing the British Labour movement to do other than go to Paris and assist in the work that they undertook on behalf of the executive of the movement— a work which I shall presently state. As I understand the case, there is a very strong complaint against the Government for permitting a member of the War Cabinet to go to Paris, and to take with him an hon. Member of this House, who, as is well known, holds strong pacifist views in regard to the War. We were told by the Mover that the object of the visit was to discuss the War situation. I hope the House will bear with me whilst I try to show that, while it is true I did go to Paris, and that I did take with me, or we went together, the Member for Stockport, the acting chairman of the Parliamentary Labour party, and the hon. Member for Leicester, we did not go to discuss the War situation. What really happened was this: On my return from Russia, on Tuesday week, I was informed that a communication had been received from the United Socialist party of Prance, of course representing the Majority party, which includes members of the French Government, men whose attitude to the War, from the very first moment that the War began, has never been in doubt, men like my friend the Minister for Munitions, M. Albert Thomas; also from the Minority party, in which they intimated that they were inviting the Russian delegates who were then in London to hasten their journey to Paris so as to examine—and I do want the House to notice the wording of the invi- tation—what was a new invitation to an International Conference:

But what was the other part? It has been said by both the Mover and Seconder that we went there to hold an International Conference. We went there to examine the invitation extended weeks ago by the Dutch Scandinavian Committee, presided over by one of the most representative Socialists, and one of the most representative statesmen in any of the neutral countries, and whose pro-Ally opinions I think have never been disguised from the beginning of the War—I mean M. Branting. The invitation was also sent by the representatives of the Workmen and Soldiers' Council of Russia, authorised, mark you, not by a small meeting guilty of what has been described as secret diplomacy, but by the most representative Conference that has been held in Russia since the Revolution, the All-Russian Congress, which includes all sections of the Russian people. I found, when I was in Russia, that there was the strongest opinion in favour of such a Conference not only amongst those representatives of the great urban centres where active propaganda might be expected to be carried on, but amongst the representatives of the great peasant movement in Russia, the great masses of the voting population that will probably have to settle, that will have in its power the settlement of, the constitution of the new Assembly which is expected to come together in September or October. I want to impress this point on the House that whether we like it or not, they have decided, they had decided, to hold this Conference, and, what is more, during the time that I was in Russia I found that no one was more strongly in favour of the Conference being held in order that views might be clearly stated than was the Provisional Government. So that when we met in our Executive a week ago we had to consider first of all the invitation to which I have just referred, and also the invitation of the French Socialists that we should go, not to settle this Conference, but to examine really what the invitation amounted to. The Executive decided that it would accept the invitation to send delegates to Paris, and, rightly or wrongly, they decided that the delegation should consist of the three members of the Committee that have already been referred to. I want to say when the invitation to myself to go to attend the Conference in Paris was presented to me, and as it was essential that the invitation should be acted upon within two or three days, because the meeting was on the Wednesday and the Conference opened in Paris on the Saturday, I determined to accept it.

What was my own position? When I joined the first Coalition Government on the invitation of the Leader of the Liberal party I was Chairman of the Parliamentary Labour party in this House, and I was secretary, and had been for several years, of the Labour movement in this country. I have continued to occupy that position until this moment. The statement has been made, I think by the seconder of the Motion, that it is inconsistent, or, perhaps, anomalous that there should be occupying those two posts the same individual, a member of the War Cabinet and Secretary of the Labour party. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party was bound to be aware of the possibly anomalous position arising when he invited the Labour party to come into the Coalition Government, and invited me personally to become a member of the Cabinet. For, I think, something like eighteen months I occupied these two posts, and then my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister renewed the invitation to the Labour party, and he again invited me to become a member of the War Cabinet. Knowing, as we all must know, and none of us seek to deny, that there may be occasions when, being a member of the War Cabinet, and the Secretary of the Labour party, may be the one absolutely inconsistent with the other. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] We admit it. What is the use of disguising the position? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] The Government of the day, if it invites a party like the Labour party to join the Government, must be prepared to weigh up the advantages and the disadvantages, and it is a very strange thing—a very strange thing indeed—that the Labour party has been connected with the two Governments since May, 1915, and that this is the first time we have been called upon to listen to speeches in which it has been pointed out that there is something absolutely wrong in the Secretary of the Labour party—or I shall put it the other way—of a member of the Government and of the War Cabinet who happens to be secretary of the Labour party—continuing to hold both positions.

I say again that it is for the head of the Government and for his colleagues in the Cabinet to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages, and to decide which preponderate. I think that fully explains my own position, being bound when the executive of the Labour party, of the party created by the great annual Conferences, decided that two of the deputation should be, one the Member for Leicester, elected by that great conference as treasurer of the party, and the other elected by the conference as secretary of the party: not, however, to go to Paris to take part in secret diplomacy affecting war policy— there might have been strong justification for the charges that have Been made, and the complaints which have been lodged against the Government if that had been the case—but because the Executive accepted the invitation of the leading Socialist organisations to go there and examine—with that invitation already issued and published to the world—and at the same time complete the negotiations for what to my mind is much more important than this, namely, an inter-Allied Conference which is going to be held in London, and at which we hope the whole of the Allies will be represented, including the United States of America. We have heard the speeches we have heard! It seems to me that there is no justification for the amount of strong feeling that has been manifested, and for some of the very incorrect statements that have been made!

9.0 P.M.

What did we do when we reached the conference? According to the Mover of the Resolution, there seems to have been a great amount of anxiety excited on this point. He seems to have concluded that I did something very wrong in becoming a member of a small sub-committee consisting of two representatives of the French Socialist party—one the Majority and the other the Minority—and two representatives of the Russian Socialists, about whose names he made a great amount of by-play. May I, however, say that these representatives, whatever be their names, are here, and they have behind them the authority of most of the representative working-class organisations in Russia. They are here with the authority and the approval of the Provisional Government which was in power when they left. It is quite true that the Member for Leicester and myself had to go upon the committee. I want to say this: As there were only three of us, and as the French Socialist party were agreeing to put a Minority representative on, it was felt we ought to do the same. I deemed it of the highest importance that I should go on the subcommittee to assist in keeping my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester right. [Interruption.] That is a perfectly fair statement. No one knows better than the hon. Member for Leicester that we have widely differing views on this War. I have opposed him possibly more than any other man in the movement. We have fought the matter out on every platform. We have fought it out at every Conference we have had since the War began. We have fought it out on the floor of this House. Surely that is a conceivable position.

If there had to be a representative of the Minority, and if that representative was elected by the executive of the party, then I was not going to demur. I was going to accept the position, and do what I could, if I found him going astray, to put the position—

I do not see why that should be resented. If hon. Members cheer the suggestion that I have been trying to keep the hon. Member for Leicester in order in our respective conferences for over two years, I do not see why what I have just said should be resented. It is but a bald statement of the position. What did we do? Let us see how far the Member for Leicester upset the position for which the majority of the Labour party has always stood.

The committee, as I have already hinted, from the invitation, were called upon to examine the document that had been issued by the Dutch-Scandinavian Committee, and the Workmen's and Soldiers' Council. That invitation laid down the date and conditions of the Conference which they proposed to hold in Stockholm.

I was not referring to the same point when I interrupted the hon. Gentleman.

What I am trying to make out is this: They are determined to hold this conference. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who are they?"] I am asked, Who are they? The promoters of the conference, the Dutch-Scandinavian Committee representing the whole of the neutral countries, and the Russian Workmen's and Soldiers' Council, which is the most representative working-class organisation in Russia at this moment. They determined to hold the conference, and we had to examine the position in Paris in the light of their invitation sent out to all the organisations. With regard to the date, we made an alteration. I may say I had the view that if there was to be a conference—and I have never wanted a conference; I wish to make that perfectly clear—but when I found there was going to be a conference, I came to the conclusion—and I do not think I am very much mistaken—that we ought to be quite sure that it is held at such a date that if the great American Labour Federation feel they ought to be at that conference, the date should be fixed so as to enable them to come. That is the line we took at the time.

But we went further than that. I have always said that if there had to be a conference, I would prefer that, instead of its being a conference at which proposals would be made, discussed and decided by a majority vote, it ought to be, especially in the first instance—the first thing of the kind in the greatest War the world has ever known—a consultation rather than a conference. May I say why I have taken up that position? First of all, I object to the whole of the neutral countries coming together and taking part by their vote, and voting the British delegates into what might be not only an untenable position in the conference, but a dangerous position. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why did you go?"] Therefore, I went to Paris with the determination to do everything in my power to turn the conference into a consultative assembly rather than a binding assembly. [An HON. MEMBER: "What did you want to consult about?"] And if any of the Members of the House care to examine the statements that have appeared in the Press, they will see how far we succeeded in changing the character of the conference, because we strongly recommended the line I have just laid down. It seems to me that there are two positions we can take up. The one is, if we conclude that this conference is inevitable— a conclusion that I have already reached —we can say we will remain away, that we will not even go to state the British case. That is a perfectly plain, understandable position. But as we have always claimed we have nothing to fear by a clear, definite, frank statement of the position in which we stand, the aims for which we entered the War, and for which we are continuing the War, it seems to me that at the close of a conference consisting of neutrals and enemy countries only, the position of Great Britain and France, if they were not represented, would be very seriously prejudiced. That is one of the positions I think we took up.

My hon. Friends seem to imagine that when I am suggesting that this conference should be a consultative conference, and that we should go, or that we should leave it to the enemies and the neutrals, I have in my head that this is a conference at which actual peace terms were going to be settled. I have no such thing in my head, but I do say this: When this War is settled, it will be settled on lines which meet with the approval of the common people of each of the countries. [An HON. MEMBER: "Representing a majority, not a minority."] In view of the fact that the newspapers have given a good deal of space, and a good deal of attention, to myself, of which I am not worthy, I think hon. Members might give me an opportunity of stating my case. It is quite true that we may be a minority. We have our point of view. We have our ideals. We are an organised movement, and I do not mind saying I have always felt that if you have a certain amount of educational propaganda work going on, and provided—and I always make this a condition—that it in no way interferes with your military effort, then I think it is well to have running on parallel lines your military effort and your political propaganda. I think, as the circumstances of the War change, the more you can educate the people to the new position the better. I think there has been too little of it. I think the British interests have suffered because, since recruiting was no longer necessary, propaganda has almost come to a standstill. We have left the propaganda to our pacifist friends, which has been a great mistake in England. As a consequence, what do we find? We find that our position in Russia is altogether misunderstood—our aims are altogether misunderstood. And it seems to me that there is another reason We have had it said in our Press ov6r and over again that statements have been made in Germany on behalf of the German organised workers, especially the Social Democrats, that the position has never been properly presented to them through the Press of their own country, and that they do not quite understand the position of the Allied countries. I am inclined to think there is a good deal in that position.

Very well, if there has got to be a conference—and I always begin there— if we can put it off without further injury to Russia, and, God knows, the position is bad enough, for I studied it on the spot for six weeks, and I know something about it. I know something of the difficulties of the Provisional Government, and the difficulties that the present Government under that great leader, Kerensky, will have to face—almost an impossible position for any Government —but, so far as I am concerned, and as far as I understand the difficulties in which they will be placed, I believe that we can assist in minimising those difficulties, or we can do a great deal to add to those difficulties, if we allow our position to go on being misunderstood and misrepresented, as it has been so long in connection with that great country. Therefore, it presented itself to me like this: There is going to be a conference. I think, personally, it would be wrong if we allowed any conference to bind us, but, if the moment has not come now, the moment will come when it will be in the interests of all of us, however strong we are in favour of a military victory, to have our aims clearly and unmistakably stated, not through the Press, but to those who are nearest to us, especially the Minority Socialists in Germany, and I will venture to say if some of us could have the opportunity of meeting a statesman, a Socialist Leader, like Bernstein, who is so well-known in this country, and could present him with the actualities of the case so far as Great Britain is concerned, it seems to me that nothing but good would come out of it. But I must repeat, I was only prepared to encourage a consultation and not anything in the nature of a binding conference. I do not see the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal party present. [An HON. MEMBER: "Which one?"] This subject is too important to be treated in that way, and if the hon. Member does not understand, then I cannot assist him further. The Leader of the Liberal party, speaking in the Debate a few days ago, made use of a statement that impressed me very much, and I think it deals very cogently with the point I have been trying to make. He said:

With these things impressed upon us day by day, why should we change our position? No, Mr. Speaker, we do not change our position. We did not go to France in order to discuss war policy, but we did go to France to discuss the holding of an inter-Allied Conference which we were going to have, I believe, representative of the whole of the Allies in London during the next few weeks. If there was going to be any general international con- ference, if it had become inevitable, as we thought it had, if it was going to be held and we were going to be represented at all, we were trying to turn that conference not to resolutions binding the majority as against the minority, but into a consultation—I thought everybody understood them until I got to Russia—in order that we might put before Russia and all others our War aims and a fair and frank statement of our position. If for taking such a course without in any way modifying my views as to the essential necessity for a settlement of the War by a victory of our arms, if that position meets with the condemnation of the House, I regret it exceedingly; but I have done what I conceive to be my duty in this case in the interests not of a party, but in the interests of the country—the only interests that have moved me since the commencement of this War.

A week to-morrow I myself was discussing going to Paris to the conference about which my right hon. Friend has been talking. Therefore, I am very interested personally, and I intend to put what I believe to be the position of Labour in the country. The Mover of this Motion prefaced his speech by saying that he was not going to make a personal attack either upon my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle or the hon. Member for Leicester. I leave the House to judge whether the bon. Member's references to my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester do not come within the category of a personal attack. At all events the charge shortly is this. First, that the position of my right hon. Friend is an anomalous one, because he happens to be Secretary of the Labour party, and, secondly, that the Government themselves should give no countenance to an international conference being held. With regard to the first point I frankly admit that it is an anomalous position. My right hon. Friend knows perfectly well that I have always, from the first time our party joined the Coalition, utterly and absolutely been opposed to any member of our party holding such a position. This is no secret, and my views are well known among my colleagues. I have never disguised them, because I knew that sooner or later it must compromise one or the other. It is only fair to my right hon. Friend to say that it is rather late in the day to raise that issue, because that was clearly understood before he joined the first Coalition Government. It was clearly understood by that Government and it was accepted by our own party and conference.

May I ask whether it is not the case that the Leader of the Unionist party (Mr. Bonar Law) holds the same dual position?

I do not know, but, if so, it is equally anomalous. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] If it is not, I leave the House to judge the difference between the Labour party and the Unionist party. I suppose the difference is that one is paid and the other is not. I understand there can be no debate upon that point, because my right hon. Friend does not happen to be drawing a salary from the Labour party. At all events, my view is clear that it is an anomalous position, but I submit it is unfair to raise it at this stage, seeing that the position to-day is exactly the same as it was the first day that the right hon. Gentleman joined the Coalition Government.

It was published, and if you did not know it apparently it was not to the interest of anybody to find out. There is a more general issue raised. The suggestion has been made that the Government has no right to grant passports to any Labour or Socialist delegates going to discuss terms of peace. That is the issue which has been frankly raised.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that the Government had no right to issue passports to any people who were going to discuss terms of peace. If that is so, it must clearly mean that the Government are not entitled to grant passports to the delegates of any conference, national or international, that is being held. It was followed by the statement that the Government ought not to allow any Englishmen to meet Germans. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Now we are getting right to the spot. Then why not proceed at once to condemn the Government for allowing Lord Newton and others to make an arrangement which the whole of the country appreciated this morning?

We need not get excited. I am dealing with a phrase used by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. He said that we ought not to allow Englishmen to meet Germans. That was his phrase, and I am dealing with it alone. If he did not mean that, then he did not make himself clear, and I repeat again that there is no point in it. The Government dare not stop passports. Let us come quite on the spot in this matter. I am not a pacifist. I believe there can be no real talk of peace until Germany herself has given an indication of good will by the evacuation of the territory of which she is now in occupation. That is my clear personal view. On the other hand, with regard to Alsace-Lorraine, I entirely disagree with the talk about it being confiscation and the taking over of territory. I believe, just as it was taken from her by force originally when she was forced into a war, that she is entitled to say, "This was a barrier before, and I am going to see that it is not made the medium of attack in the future." That is my personal view. If it is going to be suggested that Labour in this country, in France, and the other belligerent countries, giving our sons by the thousand and the million, are not to be allowed to discuss what may lead to peace, then the Government which attempts to refuse passports to people under those circumstances immediately invite us to say to our people, "We will stop ourselves and force the hands of the Government." It is just as well that this House and the Government should face that issue, because Labour is determined to hold the conference. There will be a conference in London the week after next, attended by Allied Labour delegates. There will be a conference first of the English Labour party. I frankly admit that a mistake was made by the statement committing that conference to an international. No one has the right to do that. I can speak quite openly, because I myself urged that we should have an international, but I was defeated. Therefore, I am quite open in the matter when I say that although I believe an international ought to be held, those who to-day are saying that Labour has changed its view do not speak in the name of Labour, because Labour has yet to determine that issue.

I am dealing, just the same as you, with the Press reports, which said that the Labour Party Executive had themselves decided upon an international.

I only interrupted because in to-day's Press there is a statement that I sent a telegram to say that a, certain decision had been made. I have sent no such telegram.

That shows clearly how necessary it is for me to correct the whole thing, and it again clearly proves my point that up to now labour has not decided in favour of an international.

Do not let there be any misunderstanding that I believe that labour will not decide for an international, because I believe it will.

I frankly admit that no one can accurately say, but I am keeping within the mark when I say that up. to now labour has not committed itself. I would beg hon. Members not to talk glibly about the Government stopping passports here, there, and everywhere else. Labour, rightly or wrongly—rightly, in my opinion —is determined that the part it is playing in waging this war demands that in the settlement of the terms of peace it shall be consulted. They go further, and they say that before the terms of peace are made they are going to have a voice in them, and they are entitled to have that voice. Therefore, I submit it is unfair at this stage to raise the issue involved by my right hon. Friend's presence in Paris simply because of a dual capacity that was created eighteen months ago. On the other point, if there is going to be an attempt to stop either the minority or the majority of Labour men in this country from attending a national or an international, then, in my judgment, it will lead to serious trouble. It is because I believe that a frank, open discussion is the best for everybody, and will be the best guarantee of peace, that I hope no such policy as that will be pursued.

There are one or two points I should like to lay before the House for its consideration. I suppose that some member of the War Cabinet will speak before the Debate closes?

I have no doubt that the House will agree that we stand at present in a rather deplorable situation. The whole thing wants clearing up. If what happened was merely the result of some misunderstanding, some accident, or some confusion of office, if that can be made clear to the country, I am sure the country will think no more of it. But I am sure that if the country—and I speak for the country as a whole—gets into its mind the false impression that the Government—I say the Government alone—is playing with peace, then I am sure a deplorable result will follow.

If there is any misunderstanding as the result of this Debate, it might shake the whole Kingdom from one end to the other. So far as I can see, judging from the speeches that have been made, there is some confusion as to the position of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henderson). Is he a representative of Labour? Does he attend these conferences as a representative of Labour, or is his presence to be construed as meaning that he is attending these conferences as a Government plenipotentiary? The matter wants clearing up, and we want a distinct statement that he is one or the other, and that he is not a Government plenipotentiary. I feel that the matter is intensely serious. It is suggested that there is no propaganda. I believe that the people of this country and the solid masses of every Allied country know well enough for what they are fighting. It seems almost platitudinous to recite it. They are fighting for national self-preservation; they are fighting to get this world into a clean groove, along which it can go spinning through time, out of which no Imperialistic Junker can drive it, and from which no international financier can send it back into a state of confusion. The mass of the alliance is fighting for more than that. We are fighting for more. We British are fighting for our Empire. I do not speak in the Imperialistic sense when I use the word "Empire." We are fighting for those free peoples of European stock, our Colonies beyond the seas who live in democratic communities, and we are fighting so that we may carry democracy, civilisation, and progress into Asia in the years to come. The people of this country feel that those are the issues at stake, and it is because they have that knowledge in their minds that they have endured what they have endured for the last three years with sublime faith.

Although the masses of the people hold that view, it cannot be denied that there is a party, which has representatives in this House, which is adverse to this War. There is a party in this House—I do not question its motives; I am not attacking it—which does question the motives of this country. Is it not true that there is a party in this House which has throughout the War questioned the justice of the War, which has steadily resisted legislation that has tended to the efficiency of this War, which has assisted and fomented the conscientious objection to and which has given people advice as to how they are to avoid military service? Is there not a party in this House which has even boasted that there is discontent in the Army, and which has spread discontent in this country in regard to this War? There is not only a party in this House that does that, there is such a party in every Allied country. It is a small party, a small fraction, but it exists everywhere. We know well enough that that small party existed in Russia, and that in a moment of confusion, because of the crimes of the old Government, for a time people holding those views were stronger in Russia than they are to-day. About a month or six weeks ago people in Russia holding the kind of views which are attributed to the hon. Member for Leicester, or, at least, the kind of views which those who support him seem to hold, for a moment brought a terrible disaster upon the Russian army. I believe it was people holding this kind of views who invited the hon. Member for Leicester to go over to Russia, or, if they did not invite him, they at least stimulated the invitations which were extended to him.

The point I now come to is a point in which the Labour party should be interested. It is that the movement of the hon. Member for Leicester was stopped. It was not stopped by the Government; it was stopped by the seamen of England. With regard to the seamen of England, I would say that if ever there were working men in this country whose pre-War con- ditions might have made them dissatisfied with the social state of affairs, they were the men who worked before the mast on the small ocean-going ships. If there is any body of working-men upon whom the War has fallen with terrible hardness it is those seamen who have to sail through unlighted seas, through mined seas, who have to face the submarines and face the pirates, and who for a long time had to face them unarmed, and who have had to endure all the dangers of war with very little of the glory and practically no recognition. Yet these men were the democracy that resisted the pacifists. Why? Because they were British. Because they were men. Because they would make no truce with hell. I also submit, it may be a, detail, that the men who sail the North Sea, who sail the Baltic, these working men, perhaps know something of the political influences which for a time got hold of the poor people of Petrograd and of the poor people of Kronstadt and led them astray. Those men are determined to go on with the War. They will not have a conference, I am certain, which is ready to discuss piracy as if it were a thing which could be condoned. They will not have a conference where people shall overlook the murders of women and children and babies on the high seas.

I do not quite know what the point is to which the hon. Baronet is leading up.

The Motion is a very wide one, and I do not think it can be taken in a narrow sense. The point I should like to submit with regard to those men is this: The men I know in Hull tell me that their view is entirely unchanged, and, more than that, I believe the view of the men as a whole is entirely unchanged. When the Government makes its answer to-night I hope it will dissociate itself and all who belong to it from movements of this kind. Let Labour manage its own affairs. There cannot be this dual position of a Minister who may be employed as a diplomatist one day actually acting in a conference which must have a diplomacy of its own the day after. If Labour decides on a Stockholm conference dissociated from the Government, there is no harm in it. That has nothing to do with the Government whatever. I fear no Stockholm conference if the delegates are the free choice of the Labour of England and independent of Government at all, but I submit to the Government that if it appears to the people of this country that it is pulling wires in a Labour conference or playing with pacifists there will be unrest, there will be fear, and there will be a shaking of the faith of the people of this country and the people of the alliance in the Government of this country. The Government's duty, it is clear, is to run the War, and when it considers peace to consider peace on its own responsibility. If it does that it will have the support of every man in the House.

I rise to respond to the appeal made by my hon. Friend to state the policy of the Government on the fundamental issues which he has raised. I have no hesitation in saying that, so far as the Government are concerned, we have not in the least altered our views upon the only possible conditions of peace which are consistent with the honour and security of this country. Not only that, but we certainly propose to take no part in any conference such as he has described, either by representatives or by having any member of the Government present at such a conference. More than that, I say without any hesitation we do not propose to allow any sectional conference to decide or to dictate the terms of peace. The terms of peace must be the responsibility of the Government that happen for the time being to represent the people of this country, and theirs alone. That is my answer to the appeal made by my hon. Friend.

With regard to the position of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Henderson), I happened to be in Paris at the time when the discussion took place, and when the decision was taken by him and by the Labour conference. We were there not discussing terms of peace. We were discussing the best method of successfully prosecuting the War, and that Conference which we held last week we propose to resume in London in the course of the next few days, when the representatives of the great Allied countries are coming over for that purpose. As for my right hon. Friend's position, he has been quite frank about it. There is no doubt at all that there is a, good deal in what has been said about the dual capacity in which he has been present, not merely in this Government, but in the late Government as well. He was Secretary to the Labour party while in the late Government. He continued that position under the present Government. I want the House of Commons to be quite frank and fair, not merely to him, but to itself. I want it to examine what that has meant up to the present moment. There is no doubt at all that it was a question of the balancing of advantages and disadvantages. If the appeals made to my right hon. Friend were responded to, that he should give up the position of Secretary to the Labour party, there is no section of the House or outside which would be better pleased than the downright pacifist party. I want the House thoroughly to understand that, and before it puts forward that demand and presses it, I want it to realise that there is only one view in my judgment that we can and ought to consider—what is best for the successful prosecution of this War.

Take the position up to the present. I am not going to say it is not embarrassing to him, and, as it has turned out, to the Government. But let my hon. Friend consider the record of the last eighteen months. What is the first fight that my right hon. Friend had as Secretary to the Labour party? It has been to get a declaration of opinion from organised Labour in favour of the objects of the War. I have been dealing with organised Labour in the matter of the manufacture of munitions of war, and I know what an out-an-out hostile organised Labour would have meant in the production of that overwhelming mass of cannon and of shell which enabled us to win this brilliant victory without casualties corresponding to those we suffered even in repulses a year or two ago. Where did I get the most help? The help I got was from the leaders of organised Labour, and not from those who tried to thwart us in this manufacture step by step. Who was the man I could rely most upon? My right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle. He came to meetings and conferences. Do let us show some gratitude for past services, and do not let a misunderstanding —do not let what some of my hon. Friends regard as an indiscretion on the part of my right hon. Friend—completely wipe out all the great services he has rendered to his native land in the prosecution of this great War.

Yes, let us take it in that way. The Government are not unmindful of what my right hon. Friend has helped them to do and also the late Government in the prosecution of the War, very largely owing to the fact of his official position. What was the next point he put forward? The great struggle in organising the war power of this country, and carrying through the military service acts. My right hon. Friend took a leading part in securing the support of organised Labour for those measures.

Organised Labour never supported Conscription. The conference was overwhelmingly against it.

I do not accept that view. At any rate, do not let us forget that my right hon. Friend on that occasion stood up to support it. The hon. Member for Blackburn says he stood up against the majority. All the more honour to him because of that Let those who condemn him at the present moment bear that in mind. Let them remember that he stands for the War, whether he is with a majority or a minority, and that he has always been consistent in helping on measures for the prosecution of the War. These are the ways in which advantage has been derived from my right hon. Friend's association with organised Labour.

This meeting is not the first meeting my right hon. Friend has attended, at which the hon. Member for Leicester and the hon. Member for Blackburn and others also were present. He has attended meetings of the Labour party. He did not travel to Paris, but he travelled to Manchester, to face these hon. Members when they were pressing pacifist resolutions on organised Labour. I am not going to say that if my right hon. Friend had not been there, organised Labour would have declared in favour of the pacifist policy; but there is no one present who would not say that his speech, his presence, and his influence conduced very largely to the emphatic majority which organised Labour recorded in favour of the prosecution of the War. These are the advantages which have been derived from his association with the organisation of Labour. No doubt at all in the present case it has been an embarassment. I think my right hon. Friend will admit that it put him in a position where he could not possibly regard himself, whether in Paris or in the meetings of the Labour conference, as a plenipotentiary—to use my hon. Friend's phrase—of the Government. He never pretended to be that.

Let me point this out to the House. The same duality of position obtains in France, and I rather think that is the position in Italy. I will not take the condition of Russia, for, of course, the whole condition of Russia is so anomalous that it would be absurd for us to quote it as a precedent. But in France and in Italy, as well as in this country and also in Belgium, where M. Vandervelde—

He is in exactly the same position. Here, then, we have four Allied Governments who have—for reasons I shall come to later on—having regard to the special contions of the conflict, thought it desirable that members of their Governments should retain their association with these Labour and Socialist organisations, in order to prevent a great hostile organisation growing up outside, which would mobilise skilled and organised labour with the interests of a premature peace.

Take this conference in France. Who was present M. Albert Thomas, who is a member of the War Cabinet, who is one of the most influential Ministers in France, and is, may I say, a man who has rendered greater services to the prosecution of the War in France than almost any other Minister there. It was he who organised that great supply of munitions. He was present at the Conference, not as representing the Government, but as representing the organisation to which he belongs. The same thing, I know, happens to apply in Italy as well as in Belgium. These are arrangements which, owing to the abnormal conditions of the conflict, every Allied Government have thought it necessary to promote, in the interest of retaining the support of the great mass of the workmen of these various countries for the vigorous prosecution of the War.

There are hon. Members who think that in this particular instance it has been unfortunate. I ask them to reflect— and I will promise them that the Government also will reflect—whether, taking it as a whole, it is desirable that we should depart from that position. I promise them that, in view of recent circum- stances, the Government will also consider whether it is desirable that a member of the Government should retain a dual position. But before we do so, I should like the opportunity of conferring with our French colleagues, who are in exactly the same position, and who might be compromised by our action. The French Prime Minister will be here, probably within the course of the next forty-eight hours, with the leading members of his Cabinet. We are fully alive to all that has been said by the House of Commons. I am perfectly certain my right hon. Friend is fully alive to the difficulties of the position, but I beg the House of Commons, and those who criticise my right hon. Friend, to weigh in the balance the advantages and the disadvantages, and to remember above all that, however much they may rejoice at this moment, if they succeed in severing the connection of my right hon. Friend with his Labour organisations, there are Gentlemen in this House who will rejoice at it more than them.

The Government are committed to no conference. The Inter-Allied Conference is another matter. We thought that very desirable. It is very desirable, I think, that the great Labour leaders in America, who are overwhelmingly in favour of the prosecution of the War, should come here. I think that will give greater satisfaction to those who are in favour of the War than to those who are opposed to it. There is nothing I would like better than to see Mr. Gompers present in this country. He has been throwing the whole of his great influence and power into the organisation of the resources of America for war, and his presence in this country would be a source of great strength and inspiration.

But may I, in conclusion, say I wonder whether every Member of this House realises the explosive material there is about. I have never despaired of the cause of the Allies. I despair now less than ever. I feel confident that Russia will recover, but I beg do give her a chance. Those men who are now in charge of her Government, they mean to re-organise her forces to fight the German power. But they have had overwhelming difficulties. They have had to deal with a nation suddenly bursting into the light, and blinded with its dazzle, staggering, falling blindly into pits. They are trying to lead it on. And they have asked us to be forbearing, and we have done our best to assist them. We have done our best not to give offence; we have done our best not to give cause to those rather sinister influences which are working in Russia against the cause of the Allies. Is it too much to ask the House of Commons to assist, to give them a chance to recover? They are doing it, I believe, rapidly. What has happened within the last few days has opened the eyes of Russia. They see the perils, they see the catastrophe which is yawning through the course which some of them were pursuing.

But may I beg the House of Commons not to pass hasty judgment, not always to insist immediately—and I emphasise this—not always to insist immediately on explanations of why certain courses are taken. Let the House of Commons believe that the Government have but one purpose—to win the War, to achieve the great aims for which we set out. And we also realise that, in order to accomplish that end, it is essential that you should preserve unity at home. It is vital to preserve unity at home, and not only unity at home, but unity among our Allies abroad. That is much more important than my hon. Friend seems to imagine. This country is the country upon which the Allies depend now more than upon any land on earth. If we begin to dissolve, to break, to separate, to fling one valuable colleague after another into the arms of those who are fighting for pacifist ends, then I really despair of winning. But I do beg the House of Commons, with a grim purpose, to preserve the unity of the people, in order to win a victory which will be worthy of the cause for which so much sacrifice has been made.

We have just listened to a most impassioned appeal from the Prime Minister and to excellent speeches from those who have preceded him. They have quite forgotten, however, the circumstances under which this Motion for the Adjournment was moved. There was an attempt to move it last night, with regard to the conduct of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, and you, Mr. Speaker, quite rightly said that as the right hon. Gentleman was not here to answer for himself the Motion ought not to go forward. To-night, however, the Motion for the Adjournment was moved for the purpose of discussing the question of the War Cabinet allowing the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle to make arrangements to go to Paris without consulting his colleagues. The right hon. Member for Derby put his finger on the real point when he spoke of the difficulty of the position of the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle in being Secretary of the Labour party and a member of the War Cabinet. The Prime Minister so feels it that he has promised to consider the question. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby said that he foresaw— and I and many Members of the House also foresaw—that a time would come when the duty of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, as a member of the War Cabinet, would clash with his duty as Secretary of the Labour party; and he put it himself most clearly. Unfortunately, however, as most of us thought, he allowed his duty as the Secretary to the Labour party to override his duty as a member of the War Cabinet, and, in the opinion of many people, his duty of consulting his fellow-members of that War Cabinet. The Leader of the House had to get up the other day and say that the arrangements were made without the knowledge of the War Cabinet and that they knew nothing about them until after they were completed. I look back on great Prime Ministers like Lord Palmerston, Lord Derby, and Mr. Gladstone, and I am quite certain that if a member of the Cabinet had made arrangements to go to Paris under any of those right hon. Gentlemen without consulting them he would have been asked to resign at once. Of course; the Prime Minister is right in saying that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle has rendered great services to the country in the great stand he has taken in the conduct of the War against the pacifist Members of the House of Commons and of trade unions. But the Prime Minister practically apologised for the whole thing when he said that there had been a misunderstanding. If the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle had only said in his speech that he was wrong and that he ought to have consulted his colleagues before he went to Paris, very little more would have been heard of it. But what disturbed us, and many other people, was that when it came to the point, which we all foresaw would arise some time or other, when his duty as secretary to the Labour party and as a member of the War Cabinet would clash, he chose his duty to the Labour party, and he did not consult his colleagues, and so actually put the Leader of the House into the awkward and very humiliating position in which he had to say that he did not know that arrangements were being made until they had been made. That cannot be right. That cannot be real Cabinet loyalty. While I desire to do honour and while I believe it is right to do honour to the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle for what he has done in connection with the War, I think he made a great mistake which has caused difficulty in the country and unrest among many people. It ought to have been avoided, and I wish had been avoided.

As one of the Members who raised this question at the earliest possible moment, I should like to say a few words in the absence of the Prime Minister, who has apparently only come down to the House in order to make one of the most extraordinary defences of a colleague that was ever made in this House. It was not a defence on the merits of the situation, but an appeal ad misericordiam, and then with an expression of his usual contempt for the Members of this House he disappears from the Front Bench. I want to recall the House to the point which has been raised, but which has not been dealt with for the last hour and a half. The Noble Lord who moved this Motion dealt with the action of the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle. The right hon. Member for Barnard Castle in his speech suggested that you, Mr. Speaker, pointed out that our judgment should be suspended on this action until he returned from Paris. I want to make it clear to my right hon. Friend that we in this House were not very much concerned about the action of the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle, but we are very much concerned about his action as a member of the War Cabinet, but we never sought to address any criticism personally towards him. I may say, incidentally, that we have watched his work in Russia with sympathetic interest, and we are all glad to see him safely back in this House and prepared to take his share in the work. We have no personal animus against the right hon. Gentleman, but we nave a distinct grievance, which I hope to make good, against the system which obtains in the present arrangement of the War Cabinet with a docile Government and House of Commons under which one Member, or any Member, may commit the Government of the day to a serious policy.

I am dealing with the speech of the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle first, in the hope that some junior Lord of the Treasury will indicate to the Prime Minister that I should like to reply to his remarks. [Laughter.] I think it most extraordinary that any hon. Member of this House should laugh at that suggestion There are Members who recollect the day when the Prime Minister sat below this Gangway, when he had a very considerable respect for the House of Commons, but to-night, on a great issue which may involve this country and another country in a disastrous close to this War, in a peace of which we know nothing, the Prime Minister cannot afford the time from a quarter past eight to eleven o'clock to listen to the views of his colleagues whose support he used to seek on important questions of this kind. It may be presumptuous on the part of an ordinary Member of this House below the Gangway to suggest that he has anything to say in reply to the Prime Minister, but I do suggest to the Leader of the House that the least the Prime Minister can do is to stay here, after having made a speech which did not refer to a single argument that was advanced throughout the whole course of these proceedings, and not on a high falutin note of elegance disappear behind the Speaker's chair into the limbo of whatever remains beyond. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, who at least has had the courtesy to remain to listen to this discussion, says that he did not go to Paris to discuss the War situation. What does he mean by the War situation? Is it the military position or is it proposals to end the War which he and those who were associated with him were discussing, and what action as a Member of the British Cabinet has he taken as a result of these negotiations? It might be what he told us, that he went to Paris to bring about two conferences, an inter-Allies conference and an international conference; so that we have my right hon. Friend—

I do not want to interrupt my hon. Friend, but I did not say that we went to Paris to bring about two conferences. I told the House that both conferences had already been discussed, and we went to Paris on invita- tion to talk over the arrangements for the Allies conference and examine the invitations that had already been sent out for an International conference.

That is exactly what I was trying to suggest. I have a note on my paper here, "to examine the new invitations to an international conference." That is the invitation which the right hon. Gentleman accepted without the know ledge of his colleagues, without the knowledge of the Leader of the House who is sitting beside him. A Member of the War Cabinet, selected by the Prime Minister who has left the House to pursue the policy of the War day and night, goes to Paris on a new invitation to consider an international conference, which means a conference with the enemies of this country, without the knowledge of the Leader of the House.

My hon. Friend knows that that is not accurate. In answer to a question I said that it had been arranged beforehand. We knew all about it before he went.

That means that although they knew all about it before he went they agreed about his going. Is that what the right hon. Gentleman means?

My right hon. Friend cannot have it both ways. He cannot give certain replies to questions in this House and then interject, as he has done now, in the course of my argument.

The hon. Member says that I gave the House to understand, but I will tell exactly what I said in answer to a question. The hon. Member asked,

"Is there nothing new in a member of the War Cabinet concealing from his colleagues information which they ought to have?"

and my reply was,

"No; he did not conceal it. We knew of it, but only after everything had been settled."

You knew of it, but only after everything was settled. Does that mean that things were so far settled that you could not prevent my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle going to Paris?

There again the hon. Member is making a statement which he knows to be inaccurate. In the answer which I gave I said that we could have stopped him by refusing to grant his passport.

My right hon. Friend is wrong again. He does hot grant passports. Everybody in this House knows how to get passports. I have to get them myself. You do not go to the War Cabinet to get passports. Passports are got in a wooden hut in front of the Foreign Office. All you require to do is to get a minister, not a political minister but a minister of religion, to sign a paper saying that you are a trustworthy individual, or, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby suggests to me, a member of the Salvation Army, to testify to moral character, and get a passport. What are the facilities of my right hon. Friend as a Minister in regard to passports I really do not know Was the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle on his road to Paris before the War Cabinet knew?

In that case the War Cabinet approved of his going to Paris. Now I have got the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House. If I may say so, I do not want to put the Government in a difficulty any more than anybody else. I want to be perfectly frank in this matter. The House and the country is annoyed about it. They believe that the Government and the Prime Minister are trying to shield the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle in an impossible situation. If the truth of the situation is this, that, apart from their knowledge, while they were busy with other matters, the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle arranged of himself to attend this conference, that it was so far arranged that the War Cabinet could not draw him back, but that they claim of themselves to stand outside the arrangement, so that they could go to the country and the House of Commons, and say, "This was done without our knowledge," then I understand the position. Will either the Prime Minister or the Leader of the House say quite frankly whether that was the situation or not? Neither of them seems to know. There- fore I am entitled to assume that my suggestion is correct, that the Prime Minister and the War Cabinet are trying to hold enough in reserve to unship the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle if they want to, and public pressure is great. I am glad the Prime Minister has returned to the House. As an ordinary Member of this House I am glad of his presence. I think he does himself a great injustice by not coming oftener to this House and listening to the views of the ordinary Member. The Prime Minister seems amused, as much amused as the House at what I said before. I really do not know why my right hon. Friend should laugh. My right hon. Friend, since he became Prime Minister, has been relieved from every duty connected with this House. He has frequently appealed to this House to allow him to go at once after making a speech, and he has never had that permission refused. The Prime Minister cannot deny that the House of Commons has given him enormous liberty in his present position. An ordinary Member, perhaps more aggressive than some, may suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he is doing himself an injustice by not coming down to the House oftener and getting into touch with it for himself. He knows what the pulse of the House of Commons means, and he knows that when a situation of this kind arises it might be dealt with if he were here, and if he did not leave it to the Leader of the House to answer the question on an occasion of this kind. I have put into my hand by my colleague who sits on my right (Mr. Pringle), and with whom I usually associate myself, another reply from the Leader of the House given on the 30th July, not so very distant a date. He said:

"The arrangements for this visit were settled without the knowledge of the Government, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle is attending only in his capacity as secretary of the Labour party."—['OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th July, 1917, col. 1727.]

Can my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House do me justice? If he says in this House of Commons that this visit was settled without the knowledge of the Government, what does he mean? Does he mean that the Government knew nothing at all about it or has the English language ceased to possess the connotation it used to possess when he and I learned it at school? What does it mean? I hope the Prime Minister listened to the quotation from the Leader of the House, because the Prime Minister, after all, is responsible for the Leader of the House. I should regret very much to think that the Prime Minister should be left with a false impression about the Leader of the House. What the Leader of the House said was that the visit was settled without the knowledge of the Government. If that means anything it means that neither the Prime Minister nor the Leader of the House, nor Lord Curzon, nor Lord Milner, nor our right hon. Friend who has just joined the War Cabinet, the late First Lord of the Admiralty—that one of them had any knowledge at all about it. There are three of them on the Front Bench now. Will any one of them who had knowledge of it stand up? That is what we are getting to; I mean that is the real point at issue. The House of Commons will always excuse a blunder; the House of Commons will always excuse a mistake. I do not know any more generous institution in this world than the House of Commons. The times it has forgiven me are beyond number. If we are to understand that the Government had made a blunder in this case and that they did not know anything about it and that my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle committed a Ministerial indiscretion in going to Paris and an indiscretion which may involve the British Government and the entire of the British people in happenings which may come out of that, we are quite content to leave it there, and we accept that explanation, but do not for heaven's sake get up in the House of Commons and quibble! Do not try to impress me on a thing I happen to know. For instance, the Member for Barnard Castle was in London on Saturday morning.

He was not. He was in London on the Friday morning? Did my right hon. Friend on the Friday morning see any fellow members of the War Cabinet or did he not? Again dumbness on the Front Bench. If my right hon. Friend saw members of the War Cabinet on Friday morning, before he went to Paris, did he when he went away say be was only going round to Lyons' for a cup of tea? Did he ask any of his colleagues for passports for the hon. Member for Leicester, whom he went to look after? We do not pay Ministers of the Crown £5,000 a year to look after the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leicester. Then, one might ask, which of the Ministers of the War Cabinet instructed the Foreign Office to issue the passports? The Leader of the House of Commons is here: did he instruct the Foreign Office to issue the passports? The Prime Minister is here: did he instruct the Foreign Office to issue the passports? [An HON. MEMBER: "YOU only need a minister of religion, not a Cabinet Minister!"] Ministers of religion do not get £5,000 a year. What was the date on which this visit was agreed? Was it Thursday or Friday? And if they were out of London on the Saturday, how is it that the three hon. Members arranged the thing? You are required to get two photographs taken. One of those photographs is signed on the back by the person who vouches for the good character of the holder, and the latter requires to take them round to the wooden hut in front of the Foreign Office and get them vised by somebody. It took me four days to get mine to go to the front, and I am an ordinary Member of the House, like my hon. Friend for Leicester and my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport. How did my three right hon. Friends get theirs in the interval of time? I have asked the Leader of the House. I have asked the Prime Minister. I see the Minister for Pensions present. He is a kind of out-and-in Member of the War Cabinet. Did he vouch for his right hon. colleague to the Foreign Office, or was it the First Lord of the Admiralty who gave the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle a character? I should like to see the kind of character that the late First Lord of the Admiralty would give to the hon. Member for Leicester. I think it would be one of the choicest pieces of caligraphy. It would certainly be descriptive and vivid in its adjectival portions.

I have treated this subject as a matter of fact. I have forgiven the Prime Minister since he came in. I have a number of notes here on which I meant to reply to him. I do not want to reply in that sense now. I feel that the House of Commons is prepared to take the issue on this ground; if the Government will quite frankly say, we have made a blunder, we are as human as the rest of this House, we are as human as most people outside this House, and we are sorry that a mem- ber of the War Cabinet, without our consent, without our having considered it, got himself into this position which might have committed the country seriously to worse things, and that in future no member of the War Cabinet will be sent on any expedition at all without the consent and approval of every one of his colleagues; then I think the House of Commons would be prepared to leave it at that. The Prime Minister knows that none of us want to lose this War. He knows that many of us have sacrificed, and are sacrificing now, to win this War. If peace has to come we want it to come in the best possible and most perfect way; therefore the House of Commons is keen that a mistake of this kind, a blunder, if you like, of this kind, shall not occur again. Rather than that it should occur again the Prime Minister himself should take personal care that in an important matter of this kind, opening out big issues, nothing should happen that can be brought up in the House of Commons in the way of a Private Notice Question on a definite matter of urgent public importance for which we ask the Adjournment of the House, but that we should go firmly and smoothly to the end which we all have in view—a settled peace for the rest of our lifetime, and for the lifetime, we hope, not only of our children, but of our children's children.

The Prime Minister, unfortunately, was not in the House just at the beginning of the speech in which my Noble Friend moved the Adjournment, and the result was that he did not hear that my Noble Friend's attack—if it can be so described—was not one of a personal character against the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, or, for that matter, against his colleagues, and although the Prime Minister was most eloquent in defence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, the worry which has been exercising Members of this House is not so much concerned with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle as over the action of the Cabinet on this occasion. What we want to know is, did the right hon. Gentleman go afloat in a Government boat on his own account, by his own leave, or by his own instructions, or did he go with the approval of the War Cabinet? That is the point which it is extremely important we should have decided this evening. We all know the motives which prompted the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, and we all know the wonderful patriotism which he has displayed right through the War, but the whole of his argument this evening was that it was so desirable for him to go in answer to the appeal of the Russian delegates, in order to meet the Russian delegates, and in order that they might know the real attitude of mind of the people of this country. But I believe the Russian delegates were in this country, and if after all his time in Russia—we know the splendid work the right hon. Gentleman has done there—he had not been able to have a conversation with them, and it is now necessary to go on these hurriedly arranged jaunts, there must be something wrong with the efforts of the mission to Russia. When the right hon. Gentleman says he went to examine into the question of arranging an international conference at Stockholm, it is not necessary to have an international conference at Stockholm to talk to your Russian colleagues, or the Italians or the French, and that is the real reason why everybody has been alarmed at the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman's visit. The right hon. Gentleman told us that he wants to be on this committee in order that he may be able to restrain his colleague the hon. Member for Leicester. What a condemnation of the whole business that a member of the War Cabinet has to suggest that he must go on to this committee in order that he may oppose a man who, we know, is on the side of the Germans as much as on the side of this country, and has been from the start of this War.

The hon. and gallant Member has made a statement about me which I hope, on reflection, he will withdraw because it is not in accordance with facts.

I desire to say nothing which is unjust, but the hon. Gentleman all his life [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"]—has been in favour of the brotherhood of man. His views are international.

Yes, but you can, as well as being a Christian, be a member of the British Empire and stand up for it. I will withdraw if I have said anything which is unfair, and readily withdraw, and I will substitute these words: The hon. Gentleman has been preaching, and was preaching only last week in this House, what the German point of view is, and for a considerable time in this country he has put that view forward. I maintain, as I said just now, that he is an Internationalist, approaching these things from other than a national point of view, and I say that for such a man to go to any conference—

The hon. and gallant Member made a statement in this House that I was in favour of Germany. I asked him very courteously to withdraw that statement, as it is not in accordance with the fact. He has not withdrawn that statement, but he has tried to explain it away. I ask him again to be good enough to withdraw it.

I certainly will withdraw what the hon. Gentleman feels was an unjust criticism. My thoughts were on the question which the hon. Gentleman has already taken up of the international conference. I say that it is a great condemnation of the action of the Cabinet that the hon. Member for Leicester should be permitted to go to a conference where the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle has to go on the same committee in order to restrain the hon. Member. If that is so it is undesirable that the hon. Member for Leicester should go on any sort of mission to discuss these matters, either with our Allies or our enemies. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle delayed consulting his colleagues in the War Cabinet. There were three days before he actually sailed. Evidently the enemy has not yet succeeded in breaking down the telegraphic arrangements to this country and it was the duty of the right hon. Gentleman, before he gave any promise to his colleagues in the labour movement, to obtain either telegraphic or verbal sanction from his colleagues in the War Cabinet. We are now told that the right hon. Gentleman went primarily to Paris in order to discuss the Allied Conference. I am certain nobody has any objection to that, on the contrary, we all desire to see every effort made by the official Labour leaders of this country to discuss the better prosecution of the War with the Labour leaders of our Allies. From every point of view that is desirable, but we want to ask the Prime Minister one question, and a very definite one. Are passports in the future going to be granted to any Englishmen who are not in an official capacity acting on behalf of the Government for any kind of purpose opening up any sort of negotiations with our enemies while the War is continuing? That is what we want to be assured upon. If the right hon. Gentleman can tell us that in the future no action of this kind will be taken, that no mission will be allowed to go to consider this question without the full sanction of the Cabinet, then something will have been gained by this discussion. The House and the country has been disturbed on this matter, because when men are fighting, as is happening at the present moment, one of the greatest battles that has ever taken place in the history of the world, when hundreds of thousands of our countrymen are risking their lives every minute, one has some right to speak with warmth on this subject and even to be carried away. The British soldier is looking to his countrymen for moral support at this moment, and he cannot understand now, as he never could understand during the time when I was with him, how it is possible for any one of his countrymen to be allowed to go and sit round a table with our German enemies until those enemies admit that they are beaten. We have to decide one thing, and one only. We Have one Government, and there is only one authority which can bargain on the subject of the honour of this country in connection with the War, and that is the accredited Government—the War Cabinet —responsible to this House. If we set up a dual authority and allow negotiations to go on with this body and with that, and if a Commission of the Independent Labour Party, or the Labour party, or the Free Trade Union, or the Tariff Reform League. (HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Yes, I represent on the Tariff Reform League far more working men than the hon. Member for Leicester represents, and if he goes to these conferences it is necessary that all who represent large working-class organisations should be permitted to go. If the Prime Minister can tell us that no more of these peregrinations will take place without the full consent of the Cabinet; then something will have been gained, and we shall feel that the Government have made an advance towards easing the situation.

I was one of the Members of this House who at a meeting upstairs discussed the advisability of such a Motion being brought before the House as is now being discussed, and I therefore rise to say that from my point of view, at all events, I am entirely content with the explanations which have been given from the Treasury Bench. What are the facts? The facts are that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Henderson) holds a position in the Government as a connecting link between the Coalition Government and the Labour party. He is a respected and trusted member of the Labour party, holding a high official position. It may have been—I believe it was—an indiscretion for my right hon. Friend, being at the same time a member of the War Cabinet, to proceed without certain formal precautions to Paris upon this mission; but that it was necessary and desirable for a member of the Labour party, patriotic and determined to support the patriotic side, to accompany the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Macdonald) upon such a mission to palliate and modify his counsels, I, for one, have no doubt. I do not know if the hon. Member is still in his place. He was very indignant with my hon. and gallant Friend opposite for having accused him of having been favourable to Germany. I want to recall the Debates upon war preparations which took place in this House before the War. No Member of the House was more energetic in seeking to whittle away and reduce the preparations for naval defence than the hon. Member for Leicester. Never a single Debate took place upon the Navy Estimates in his presence where he did not try to reduce the strength of the Navy. Although I do not for a moment think that he is consciously unpatriotic or consciously in favour of Germany against this country, I do support my hon. Friend in saying that no more insidious or dangerous enemy to this country exists in regard to the present state of the War than the hon. Member for Leicester, as was shown in the Debate in this House two days ago. The indignation of the hon. Member was misplaced, although no one would suggest that he is consciously desirous of the success of Germany in comparison with this country. I want to re-echo the view of my hon. and gallant friend, that if the House and the country understand that this has been, perhaps, a step wise in the direction of having someone to represent the true views of the majority of the Labour party at that conference, but unwise and indiscreet in regard to the manner in which the representation was arranged for and carried out, the House and the country will be entirely satisfied with the explanation that has been given. As to the pledge that such a thing shall not occur again, I do not suppose such a pledge is really necessary. The common sense of the House and of the country will understand the position after this Debate, and both the House and the country will be satisfied.

With regard to this matter I feel we are drifting into a position which is very dangerous. We have had now quite enough, as it seems to me, of congresses and conferences between particular sections of countries. Originally, when we sent from this country representatives not of this free country, but of a particular party in this country, we made a fundamental mistake. The same mistake was made by our Ally, France. We should have sent to Russia representatives of all parties in this country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Henderson) has told us, with the authority that comes from the fact that he has been the eye-witness of what is taking place in Russia, that the motives of this country as a whole are misunderstood in Russia at the present moment. Whose fault is that? The fault is the fault of this country and of the Government of this country. We ought to have sent to Russia in those early days a really national representation from this free country to have told Russia that this country, this democracy as a whole welcomed the arrival of Russia among the democracies of the world. The great and fundamental mistake was made in those early days. We ought never to have allowed to have gone forth from this country representatives of one particular party. All that has followed is the result of that mistake. The sooner we stop the consequences of that original mistake the better. The sooner we take an opportunity of congratulating Russia by means of a really national representation the better. Of course, we ourselves have brought about part of what has taken place in Russia. We have sent across to Russia representatives of a certain party. What was the result? That you have had an impression created in Russia that the remaining parties in this country were, if I may use the phrase, sulking in regard to the Russian Revolution, and were not welcoming it, because we were a free country alongside of a new free country.

It being Eleven of the clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

New Ministries [Salaries and Remuneration]

Postponed Proceeding resumed on Amendment to Question, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of an annual salary not exceeding two thousand pounds to the Minister of Reconstruction appointed under an Act of the present Session, and to provide for the establishment of a Ministry of Reconstruction and of other salaries and remuneration which may become payable under such Act."

Which Amendment was, after the word "remuneration," to insert the words "not exceeding in the aggregate twenty thousand pounds."—[ Mr. King. ]

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

I beg to submit that the form of the suspension of the Eleven o'clock Rule does not cover the business which is under consideration at the interruption. A special form is required under these conditions. The Standing Order says:

"A Motion may be made by a Minister of the Crown at the commencement of public business, to be decided without Amendment or debate, to the following effect: 'That the proceedings on any specified business, if under discussion at Eleven this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order "Sittings of the House,"' or to the following effect: 'That the proceedings on any specified business, if under discussion when the business is postponed, be resumed and proceeded with, though opposed, after the interruption of business.'"

I submit that as the Motion is not in the latter form we cannot resume the business.

This is not interrupted, and under the Resolution of the House, this Motion is to be taken after Eleven o'clock although objected to.

The point of Order is that ft is interrupted at 8.15 by the Adjournment, and the Motion put at the opening of business to-day does not cover that situation. In order to cover that situation, it should be in the second form I have mentioned.

The business was not interrupted within the meaning of the Standing Order which the hon. and learned Gentleman puts to me, but simply postponed, and is now resumed, and, under the Order of the House can be continued although completed.

If I may read the form it is:

"That the proceedings on any specified business if under discussion when the business is postponed—"

that is precisely what happened at 8.15—

"be resumed and proceeded with, though opposed, after the interruption of business."

Consequently, my submission is that as that form was not used it does not cover the situation in which the Committee now finds itself.

The course which is now being pursued is exactly in accordance with precedent.

Is it not the case that the other evening when the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) brought forward a somewhat similar Motion on the Adjournment, we had a Division before Eleven o'clock, which enabled us to resume after Eleven. But in this particular instance the Motion has been talked out, and it is not in accordance with the Motion which ought to have been proposed to enable us to proceed after Eleven.

I have already given my ruling on the matter. It is exactly in accordance with precedent.

I have not been able to convince you, Sir, on the point of Order, but I hope I shall have better luck in convincing the Committee as to the soundness of the argument I was advancing before the interruption or postponement, whichever is the more correct term. My hon. Friend (Mr. King) made out an unanswerable case for a limitation of the expenditure to be incurred by the Ministry of Reconstruction. We, indeed, had the usual argument put forward against such a limitation by the Home Secretary, an argument which experience has proved in relation to other similar Resolutions to be fallacious, and which therefore ought not to guide the Committee upon the present occasion. It has been shown time and again that the checks which are understood to operate upon extravagant expenditure—checks upon the part of the Treasury and of the House of Commons—are totally illusory, and the very best evidence of the illusory character of these checks is found in the action taken by the House during the past week in setting up a Special Committee in order to devise a new procedure whereby there may be some valid and practical check upon the extravagance of the Departments. I do not desire to elaborate that, but in the conditions and in the nature of the new Ministry itself I think we have the best ground for insisting upon some limitation being inserted. This is a Ministry totally different from anything we have known in the past. It ranges over the whole field of our administration. It deals with every interest not only of the United Kingdom, but of the British Empire, and if it is to enter upon a series not only of investigations, but of experiments, it is surely necessary that there should be something better in the nature of a check upon that Ministry's action than the old control which during recent years has become so unsatisfactory—I mean the control both of the Treasury and of the House of Commons. The right hon. Gentleman has signified that he will not accept any limitation. He has not only dismissed the figure suggested by my hon. Friend opposite, but he declines to entertain any limitation whatever. I think, therefore, it will be the duty of those of us who are opposed to this Resolution, even at this late hour in the evening—we regret very much to have to cause inconvenience to colleagues—to divide, for it is absolutely necessary that we should ascertain whether or not they desire to leave the expenditure of public money to this new Ministry, whose functions are so ill-defined, without any check.

I should like to thank the Home Secretary for the courteous way in which he listened and replied, but all the more do I feel that he does not appreciate our point of view, and it is only natural when the War Cabinet cannot control its own members and has to make a lame, halting, and quibbling excuse that it has made for one of its own members this evening, that we should feel that we really cannot trust the Government with the expenditure of our money. Therefore I really must ask my Friends to support me in a Division upon this.

I should like to ask one question. I do not wish to persist in any obstruction or delay, but I would point out that we have had no estimate at all. Can I appeal to my right hon. Friend to have sufficient respect for the forms of the House of Commons as to give us an estimate of what the whole cost is to be? If he refuses a £20,000 limit, we will accept £30,000, or £50,000; we will accept anything, so long as the country can see we are pursuing our business in a businesslike way. Whenever we go in for new expenditure for a Department, the Minister in charge should be prepared to give some limit which the expenditure shall not exceed. When you remember the regrettable experience you have had with some of these Departments—I see that one of those new Ministries, which cost, I think, about £1,000,000 last year, is to cost £1,800,000, or something like that, this year; with figures like that before us for one of these new Ministries I think everybody is justified in saying that if another is to be set up, it should not be of a very extensive character. If my right hon. Friend will not accept the £20,000, I would ask him if he will give us the sum he will accept?

I just want to ask a question. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary told us, when he spoke, that before the money would be spent an estimate would be presented to the House and passed. It has been suggested to me that the operations of this Ministry might be carried on entirely out of the Vote of Credit. Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the Vote of Credit will not be used for the operations of this Ministry, and that no money can be spent by this Ministry unless an estimate is laid before the House?

I really do suggest that it is not necessary to incur a very great expenditure on a Ministry of this kind. Why should it not be combined with another office? We have had a precedent for that in the case of the Minister of Blockade, who did not have a very expensive secretariat and a very large proportion of public money to carry on the office. He is Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and combines with that office the duties of Minister of Blockade. I would suggest that there are other Ministers who might to-day similarly be associated with this new Ministry, and so save these very large sums of money. I see my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster—a very excellent business man—present. I do not know if his labours are of such a character as to allow him to take on this Ministry. There are several others who might be associated with this Ministry. There is the First Commissioner of Works—a very excellent business man—why should he not undertake it, and be associated with this office? He is not overburdened with work, and a man of his enormous energies could well undertake it. Then, if he would not do so, why should not the Lord Privy Seal take it? He is not really overburdened either. It is a very interesting subject, and he would be very glad to do the work. But the Government will not allow it. All its Ministers are dying for something to do, and it would save public money, which, at such a time as this, is a very serious matter. We have a large number of Ministers who are not doing anything. But, if you are not satisfied with the under-Ministers, you can go to the War Cabinet. We find, from the Debate to-night, that a member of the War Cabinet has ample time to go off on the business of a labour union, and to spend his time in Paris in a way which is a little doubtful, perhaps—[Laughter]— after what we have heard to-night we must consider it a little doubtful. Here he would have a very beneficial duty to perform which might keep his spare time occupied. If he is too busy as the secretary of a trade union, there is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, who has no portfolio. We have two members of the War Cabinet without portfolio, each of whom receives £5,000 a year. Why should not the money of the country be saved by attaching this new Ministry to one of these Ministers? They would be only too glad to have some locale, some address at which they could be found. It would be something to occupy their time.

It is a very serious matter when we are continuing to multiply Ministers. We have nearly reached the century now, and I do not know that we shall not obtain it if the Bill is carried through in this form. Surely, among 100 persons, there are some people who can take on more duty, and so follow the example of the Minister of Blockade, who is also Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and who followed his excellent father, the late Lord Salisbury, in saving public money. I suggest that the Government ought to give us some indication as to whether they will not make some limit to the establishment of these Ministries. I might allude to other assistance which is available for matters of this kind. We understand that there is a secretariat, a new body which is assisting the Prime Minister or the War Cabinet in gathering universal information of every kind. I do not know how to describe it. It is sometimes described as the garden party. I believe it is in a garden in Downing Street, in pleasant surroundings. It does not seem necessary at this time, when every penny is of importance, that we should overburden the Exchequer by the creation of this new Ministry. This is the seventh new Ministry which has been set up since this Government came into power. I think there is a limit to the patience of the House in voting money for new Ministries.

I should not have troubled the Committee, but the office I have the honour to hold has been mentioned several times in the Debate today, and also last Friday. There is some misapprehension about the office I hold. The salary of the office does not come out of the Consolidated Fund. My services are not paid for by the country; they are paid for by the King. It is quite true that recently the office has been held by gentlemen who have performed some other service in the Government. Since February, 1914, there have been six Chancellors of the Duchy, with an average term of office of 5¾ months.

Nearly all these gentlemen have held some other office, and have continued to hold the office of Chancellor of the Duchy as a subsidiary office. I contend that neither the State nor the Government has any right to take services that are paid for by the King and use them for the country. The services of the Chancellor of the Duchy are services for the King, and they ought to be used for the benefit of the King. In regard to the occupants of the office of Chancellor, who have performed other duties the emoluments of both offices have, I believe, gone into the pool and the State has not got any advantage. Most Ministerial offices are pretty much what the Minister likes to make them. If he likes to leave everything to permanent officials, he can do so. This, of course, has had to be done where an office like the Secretary to the Treasury has been added to that of Chancellor of the Duchy; but I do not think it right that the services paid for by His Majesty should be taken for some other office. The last Chancellor who had no other office, the right hon. Member for East Bristol (Sir Charles Hobhouse), took a great interest in his duties, and effected great improvements on the Duchy estates, initiating a large scheme of reclamation of land which is now producing large quantities of corn. My point is that if other duties are added—and I should have no objection to performing other duties—they ought to be subordinate to the duties paid for by the King; otherwise it is very nearly a case of misappropriation.

The right hon. Gentleman has made a very interesting speech, but what it has to do with the Motion before the House I cannot say. The hon. Member for Dumfriesshire (Mr. Molteno) wanted evidently to defend this Bill. Anxious as he was to make some case for the measure before the House, and to associate this Ministry with some other Ministry, that in itself is a condemnation of the Motion before the House. I am very glad that my hon. Friend proposes to divide the House. There is no defence for the Bill nor for this particular Motion. What is the work which this particular Ministry is to do? Is it to reconstruct the Treasury? Surely the Treasury will reconstruct itself. Or is it to reconstruct the Home Office or the Board of Trade? We are anxious for economy and have just appointed a Select Committee, but it does not appear to make the slightest impression on the Government.

We have had no defence whatever for this Bill, and I submit that to pass a Financial Resolution on a Bill for which there is no excuse is to flout the House of Commons, and to defy any endeavour even to save the salary of a Minister and to limit expenditure. There is only one method by which to express our feeling, and that is to divide against the Government.

I think the speech of my right hon. Friend raised a grave issue, and I had no idea of the seriousness of the position. I imagined that we could trust the Government in accordance with the common standard of national purity, but now we find that the Government for generations has been misappropriating the money of the King. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend has discovered this for the first time, and whether there will be an attempt on the part of his predecessors to return the money to the rightful owner. Obviously the law of proscription does not run against the Government; there is no Statute of Limitations against the Government, so that for hundreds of years this obnoxious practice has been going on, and the Crown is entitled to have back the money misappropriated by its servants.

My right hon. Friend is somewhat misinformed. The office of Chancellor has been long associated with departmental duties, to which it is unnecessary for me to refer. It was understood that there was considerable advantage in having an office of this kind, without regular departmental duties, so that duties of a more general departmental character might be imposed upon the holder of the office of Chancellor of the Duchy. But we understand that the right hon. Gentleman—

The hon. Member's observations are not germane to the Amendment.

I was endeavouring to reply to the very interesting speech of the right hon. Gentleman, which was the second defence put up by the Government against any limitation. I confess that during my right hon. Friend's speech I had some doubts about its relevancy, but my interest in expediting the business prevented my interrupting on a point of Order. The fact that he did make a defence of the Government in a speech which was totally irrelevant to the Amendment is an additional grievance; and if the Government put up a spokesman to defend them, and only to make a speech totally irrelevant, then I say it is absolutely the duty of this Committee to insist upon passing this Amendment and so restrict these depredations upon the public funds.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 25; Noes, 77.

Division No. 84.]

AYES.

[11.30 p.m.

Adamson, William

Lambert, Richard (Cricklade)

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

Anderson, William C.

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Sutton, John E.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)

Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, South)

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

Hogge, J. M.

Molteno, Percy Alpert

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Holt, Richard Durning

Nuttall, Harry

Wing, Thomas Edward

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Rushcliffe)

Parrott, Sir Edward

Jowett, Frederick William

Robinson, Sidney

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. King

Keating, Matthew

Seely, Lt -Col. Sir Chas. (Mansfield)

and Mr. Pringle.

Kilbride, Denis

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Bridgeman, William Clive

Craig, Col. James (Down, E.)

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Broughton, Urban Hanion

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Baird, John Lawrence

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sit George

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Baldwin, Stanley

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick

Edge, Capt. William

Barnett, Capt. Richard W.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Edwards. Sir Francis (Radnor)

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Fell, Arthur

Bliss, Joseph

Coats, Sir Stuart (Wimbledon)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Wm. Hayes (Fulham)

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Greig, Colonel James William

Needham, Christopher Thos.

Smith, Rt. Han. Sir F. E. (Liverpool)

Gulland, Rt. Hen. John William

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luten, Beds)

Pease, Rt. Hon. H. P. (Darlington)

Spear, Sir John Ward

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Perkins, Walter Frank

Talbot, Lord E.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Pratt, John W.

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

Thomas, Sir G. (Monmouth, S.)

Jones, J. Tewyn (Carmarthen, E.)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Toulmin, Sir George

Jones, Wm. Kennedy (Hornsey)

Randies, Sir John

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Jones, Wm. S. Glyn-(Stepney)

Rea, Walter Russell

Walsh, Stephen (Lancashire, Ince)

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arfon)

Williams, Aneurin (Durham)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Williams, John (Glamorgan)

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Russell, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W.

Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

Macmaster, Donald

Rutherford, W. Watson (W. Derby)

Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea)

Macnamara, Rt. Hen. Dr. T. J.

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Winfrey, Sir R.

Maden, Sir John Henry

Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Scott, A. MacCallum (Bridgeton)

Middlebrook, Sir William

Shaw, Hon. Alexander

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Capt.

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Sherwell, Arthur James

F. Guest and Mr. J. Hope.

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Shortt, Edward

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twenty minutes before Twelve o'clock.