House of Commons
Thursday, August 2, 1917
New Writ
For Edinburgh and St. Andrews Universities, in the room of Sir Christopher Nicholson Johnston, K.C., one of the Senators of the College of Justice in Scotland.— [ Lord E. Talbot. ]
Trade of Canada
Copy presented of Report on the Trade of the Dominion of Canada for the year 1916, by Mr. C. Hamilton Wickes, His Majesty's Trade Commissioner in the Dominion of Canada and Newfoundland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Reformatory and Industrial Schools (Ireland)
Copy presented of Fifty-fifth Report of the Inspector for the year 1916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Public Records (Ireland)
Copy presented of Forty-ninth Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records in Ireland for 1916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Paris Conference
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Montenegro was invited to send a representative to the recent Paris Conference on Balkan problems; and, if not, why Montenegro was not invited?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative.
Potsdam Conference (5th July, 1914)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the recent reference in the Reichstag by Herr Haase to the meeting on 5th July, 1914, apparently at Potsdam, at which there appear to have been present the Kaiser and the political, military, and naval leaders of Germany and Austria; whether the Allied Governments have any information about this or any similar meeting during that month; and, if so, whether they will consider the advisability of disclosing it?
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have any official information that the German Government deny the accuracy of the disclosures to the effect that the War was virtually decided upon at a meeting at Potsdam on 4th July, 1914; and whether he is prepared to make any statement on the subject?
In reply to these questions, I have seen what has appeared in the Press on the subject. I cannot make any statement on the subject beyond that the information in the possession of His Majesty's Government indicates that the Central Empires decided in July on a policy which, in their opinion, would almost certainly lead to war against Russia, and consequently against France.
Socialist Conference (Paris)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when the passports for the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle and the hon. Member for Leicester were granted and for what country or countries they were available; and whether any and, if so, what steps were taken to ascertain the views of the War Cabinet upon their being granted?
The passports referred to were endorsed for travelling to France on Thursday last at the request of my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle. The War Cabinet were informed, and they decided that under the circumstances it would not be right to withhold the passports.
asked the Prime Minister (1) whether he is aware that a conference of French, Russian, and British delegates held in Paris on 30th July decided unanimously that an international Socialist conference at which German Socialists are to be represented shall take place at either Stockholm or Christiania between 9th and 16th September; whether the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle, being a member of the War Cabinet, was a party to this proposal; whether the Government has decided to allow British subjects to take part with German subjects in such a conference; (2) whether the recent conference at Paris of French, Russian, and British delegates, in which the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle, being a member of the War Cabinet, took part, decided to leave to a sub-committee the question as to the conditions on which Allied delegates should meet enemy delegates at Stockholm or Christiania; whether he is aware that this sub-committee consisted of the following members: M. Ehrlich, Jewish Social Democrat; M. Goldenberg, Revolutionary Socialist; M. Longuet, Pacifist; M. Renandel, Majority Socialist; and the hon. Members for Leicester and Stockport; and whether the conditions laid down by this sub-committee will be considered by the Government and made public before passports are granted to any British delegates to proceed to Stockholm or Christiania?
I cannot add anything to what was said in the Debate last night on this subject.
Will the House be given the opportunity of considering the matter before passports are granted to British subjects to attend this conference?
What was said in the Debate last night shows two things clearly—first, that no representative of the Government will in any case attend such conference; and, secondly, that it does not depend upon the Government, but upon the Labour party whether or not they approve of such conference. For my own part, I hope they will not approve of it.
Will the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle attend that conference?
It was clearly stated yesterday by the Prime Minister that no member of the Government would attend.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the hon. Member who put this question is constantly meeting Germans in the persons of Lord Milner, Mr. Beit, and others?
Will a passport be granted to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leicester to attend this conference?
I think it was stated yesterday by the Prime Minister—at all events that was the impression my right hon. Friend's speech gave me—that whether or not the Government would allow anyone to attend such conference had not been decided, and certainly will not be done without the most careful consideration—probably not at all.
Will the House of Commons be consulted in the matter?
Constabulary Force Fund (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received a copy of a series of resolutions passed at a meeting of ex-members of the Royal Irish Constabulary in the Botanic Park, Belfast, on the 25th ult., requesting the Government to have the Constabulary Force Fund wound up and the surplus remaining invested for the benefit of those who subscribed to it, many of whom are now, owing to their small retiring pensions and the rise in prices, in want of assistance; and will he consent to receive a deputation of these ex-members of the Royal Irish Constabulary in order that they may place the urgency of their claim before him?
I have received many resolutions on this subject. It has been stated on several occasions in this House that the Constabulary Force Fund is in course of being wound up in the only equitable way possible. There will be no surplus available until the existing and contingent claims of widows and orphans of subscribers are discharged. Subscribers, past and present, have no legal claim on the fund, and there is no provision in the Statutes or under the rules of the fund for the return of subscriptions. If there had been such a rule gratuities to widows and orphans could not be paid at the present liberal scale. I will consider the question of receiving a deputation of Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners when a suitable opportunity occurs.
Is it possible to estimate what it will cost to pay these claims? Is it possible to calculate what the balances will be?
I am told that there is no prospect of a balance for distribution.
Irish Rebellion (Compensation)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland what is the amount of the Grant awarded by the Rebellion (Victims) Committee in the case of the dependants of James Finnegan, late of 27, North King Street Dublin; if a sum of £18 had only been awarded in this case; if he is aware that Finnegan, who had been earning 30s. a week, had been helping to support his father who is over eighty years of age and his mother who is over seventy; and if he will take steps to have this case reconsidered with a view of having a larger amount awarded?
The father and mother of the deceased resided at Lusk, county Dublin. Their joint dependency was assessed at £12 a year, and on this basis an award of £36, the maximum sum payable, has been made to the parents.
Munitions
Assault on Workers (Cork)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received information that a number of female munition workers, when proceeding through Cork from an excursion on the 8th ultimo, were set upon by a crowd, dragged from the vehicles they were in, beaten, and with difficulty rescued by some military officers; and will he say any persons convicted of being concerned in this assault?
I have seen a report of the attack on the munition workers referred to. Four persons were identified, prosecuted, and convicted. Two were sentenced to four months' hard labour and two to two months. All were ordered to enter into sureties of the peace for twelve months or undergo a further term of two months' imprisonment. An appeal is pending.
Compensation Claims
asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been called to the fact that his Department has refused in many instances compensation to workers who have been seriously and permanently disabled in munition factories, on the ground of contributory negligence, whereas they are entitled to such compensation in these circumstances; and, if so, what action he proposes to take to compensate those who have been refused the award to which they were entitled?
I am advised that the Ministry of Munitions have not refused compensation in the manner suggested, but if my hon. Friend will give me particulars of any cases he has in mind I will have inquiries made at once.
Women Workers
asked the Minister of Munitions whether representations have been made to him by all the unions representing women munition workers that they should share in the increases awarded by the Committee on Production; and whether it is proposed to give them a general advance in wages as from August, and, if so, of what amount?
The question of advances in the wages of women on munitions work has been considered by the Special Arbitration Tribunal, and directions will be given under Section 6 of the Munitions of War (Amendment) Act, 1916, for advances of 2s. 6d. a week in the case of women, with effect from 15th August. These advances will apply both to these working on time and to those on systems of payment by results, and will be payable over and above the weekly earnings.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has now considered the representations made to him that women munition workers who have been working at some distance from their homes should receive free railway passes to enable them to visit their homes during their holidays; and what action he proposes to take?
I regret that it has not been found possible to arrange for any free passes for munition workers. The Ministry have, however, had placed at their disposal for the August holiday period an increased number of the cheap vouchers which were originally intended for married men working away from their homes in controlled establishments. I have arranged that any surplus of these vouchers should be available for distribution among other classes of employés, including women, in controlled establishments.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many girls who are not married work in munition factories in Ireland, and after paying for their support find it impossible to save money to enable them to visit their homes, and under those circumstances will he provide facilities for them?
I know the position is exceedingly difficult. There are many difficulties, but we are controlled by the available railway facilities.
Why not at least give these women workers return tickets at single fares?
The vouchers are for return tickets at single fare, and I can assure the hon. Member more vouchers would be provided only for the great pressure on the railways.
They are only extended to married men or women, who do not represent 10 per cent. of those who work in munition factories.
I have told the hon. Member that if it is found we have a surplus of vouchers the women will be first considered.
Billeting Board
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that dissatisfaction has been caused among organised working women by the absence of any direct representation on the new Billeting Board; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
There are three women members of the Billeting Board and I have no reason to believe that the interests of women workers are not adequately represented.
Royal Arsenal, Woolwich (Inspectors)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether M. Evanson and thirteen other workers engaged as inspectors for the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, at the munitions factory, Aston Lane, Birmingham, were given a week's notice on 19th July, 1917, on Form C.I.W. 108, signed by A. T. Beatie for the administrative officer, Inspection Department, Woolwich; whether he is aware that these workers did not receive their clearance certificates, health insurance cards, and unemployment books on the date they ceased work; and whether it is proposed to make any compensation to the workers for the loss of time occasioned by the action of the Department?
A number of women were discharged on 26th July. They received their leaving certificates by 28th July, but owing to a miscarriage of documents their Health Insurance Cards and unemployment books were not dispatched until 1st August. If any of these persons have suffered loss as a result of the delay, they should address the Inspection Department, Woolwich Arsenal, where their claims will be considered and dealt with.
National Filling Factories (War Bonus)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the clerical staffs of national filling factories come under the Government's war bonus scheme; and if not, will he state the reason, seeing that the clerks employed in the Army Ordnance and Munitions Inspection Departments in the same factories are being paid the bonus?
The war bonus referred to by the hon. Member is presumably that awarded by the Conciliation and Arbitration Board for Government Employés under date 21st May, 1917 (Award No. 5). That award, which was the result of a claim by the Civil Service Federation, has not been regarded as applicable to the staffs of the new national factories, as salaries or wages are in general regulated by local conditions and are not based on or restricted within the limits of the definite scales obtaining in Government Departments or other permanent establishments. In such national factories claims to advance wages are considered on their merits according to the recommendation of the managers or boards of management. If the hon. Member will bring to my notice any cases in which increased remuneration appears to be called for, I shall be glad to make inquiries.
Welsh Factory (Heroism)
asked the Minister of Munitions if his attention has been called to the act of heroism performed by Mr. Ivor Pugh at. a Welsh munition factory in Wales, whose right eye was blown out and whose thumb and fingers were blown off by an explosion of nitroglycerine and alcohol igniting; whether he is aware that Pugh, who noticed a bucket containing the above explosives igniting, promptly seized it and carried it into an open yard before it exploded, and that by this action he undoubtedly saved many lives and many thousands of pounds in goods and property; and if he will say if his Department will suitably reward this man for his action?
I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the answer given by my hon. Friend on July 18th to the hon. Member for Brecknock on this subject.
Willey and Company, Exeter
asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that Messrs. Willey and Company, Exeter, engineers and gas meter makers, is a controlled firm; that they have not paid their workpeople the advances granted in the engineering trade by the Committee on Production; that lads of eighteen and sixteen years of age are only receiving wages varying from 16s. 8d. to 10s. 6d.; that women workers have been kept short of eight weeks' back-money at the rate of 4s. per week in respect of advances granted by Statutory Orders; and if he will take action in the matter?
Complaints on the first and third points raised by my hon. Friend have already been received and are being investigated by the Department. The second point is new to me, but I am causing inquiry to be made into it also, and will inform my hon. Friend of the result in all three cases.
Central Hall, High Holborn
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, when the permit to alter and adapt the premises formerly known as Central Hall, 85, High Holborn, involving an expenditure of £10,000 and the employment of 200 men working night and day for three weeks, was granted to the syndicate now controlling this establishment, the primary object of the adaptation was for the purpose of providing accommodation for troops; whether he is aware that practically the whole of the money was expended in making these premises suitable for boxing exhibitions, there being now no accommodation for soldiers in whose interests the permit was granted; and, having regard to these circumstances, what action does he intend taking in the matter?
An application for a licence for the work referred to was first refused, but was subsequently granted at the request of the Y.M.C.A., supported by the War Office, on the understanding that the Y.M.O.A. should have the use of the building at any time for providing sleeping accommodation for soldiers, and that the building should only be used for boxing with their consent. The expenditure approved was £4,000, not £10,000, and I am informed that no constructional steel was used. The alterations were necessary to make the building suitable for the use of soldiers. I was not aware that its use by them had been discontinued, and I am inquiring into the matter; but I would draw the hon. Member's attention to the reply given on Monday by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for War to the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil.
Questions
Attack on Police Barrack, Ballybunion
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland (1) whether he has received any report showing the number of rifle bullets discharged by the constabulary from the barracks at Bally-bunion on the night of Daniel Scanlon's death; if not, will he ascertain the total number of shots fired from the police barracks; (2) whether he has yet received a report of the incidents which occurred at Ballybunion recently; whether he can now state if he has seen or received a copy of the depositions sworn to at the coroner's inquiry held at Ballybunion at which a verdict of willful murder was found against Sergeant M'Cauley and Constable Lyons; and whether he can now state if the coroner's verdict has been given effect to by placing under arrest and bringing to trial Sergeant M'Cauley and Constable Lyons for the murder of Daniel Scanlon?
I have received reports of the incidents in question and of the proceedings before the coroner's jury. I am advised that the finding of the coroner's jury is invalid on the fact of it and that no warrant can lawfully be issued upon it. Proceedings are pending in which I anticipate that the facts of the case will be fully and publicly ascertained, and in the meantime I am unable to enter into discussion of the details of the occurrence, which is reported to me to have been an attack upon a police barrack in which shots were fired into the barrack and return shots were fired from the barracks.
If it is the view of the right hon. Gentleman that these policemen were innocent, why have all these policemen been removed from Ballybunion barrack?
I do not think, after the information given in the reply, that it would be proper to answer that inquiry.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has seen the sworn evidence given before the coroner's Court, and is it not a fact that the police were present at the inquest and were invited by the coroner to give evidence, and refused to do so or to render any assistance; and are we to understand that after the verdict of the coroner's jury of wilful murder against these policemen the Government are taking no action to bring these men to justice?
That is raising the whole question as to which I have given a very carefully considered answer, and I really have nothing to add to my reply.
Is there any precedent in Ireland, when a coroner's jury give a verdict of wilful murder against anyone, for not bringing him to justice?
I have told the hon. Member that the jury have returned a verdict which is entirely invalid and void on the face of it.
On what ground is the verdict invalid—it was an ordinary coroner's jury summoned by the police?
I really cannot discuss the question of law as to the form of the coroner's jury. The effect of the advice which I have had on the matter is that the verdict returned is invalid and void on the face of it.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman a lawyer himself, and ought he not be able to give a decision?
I am sorry to have to ask a further supplementary question, but this concerns the death of a man. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every respectable person living around Ballybunion entirely repudiates the statement of the police that any shot was fired at the barrack? And is he aware that no attack of any kind was made on the barrack, with the exception of one stone being thrown and one pane of glass being broken before the police fired indiscriminately all over the village?
If I departed from the conclusion of which I have informed the hon. Member—in my view it is a proper conclusion—I should have to state facts which could not have any useful effect with regard to the decision, but upon which judicial proceedings are pending; but it must not be taken that I acquiesce in any way in the statements that are being made.
Are these police quite free, and doing duty in some portions of Ireland instead of being arrested?
That is not a matter which arises out of this question.
Prison Warders (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he will arrange to have the additional 1s. 6d. salary, the additional 2s. 6d. lodging allowance, and the war bonus which have been sanctioned for Irish prison warders paid at once in view of the fact that the necessity for it is urgent?
The war bonus is being paid to Irish prison officers. As regards the other matters, Treasury sanction has been given to my proposals and the necessary arrangements are being made.
May it be hoped that the arrangement will actually be carried out, and that there will be no delay?
I am certain that there will be no delay that can be avoided.
Food Supplies
Arable Land, Roscommon
asked the Vice President of the Department of Agricul- ture (Ireland) whether he will state the immediate use to which he proposes to put some 1,200 acres of land, the property of Colonel Chichester Constable, in county Roscommon, and which have been taken over because of inability to comply with tillage Regulations; and what conditions have been imposed as to the continued tenancy of these lands on the tenants at present in occupation?
The Department have taken possession of the lands in question, but have given authority to Colonel Chichester Constable which will enable him to use the lands temporarily pending action, when the present grazing season comes to an end. It will, therefore, be seen that in these circumstances the necessity of imposing conditions as to the continued tenancy of these lands on the tenants at present using them does not arise.
In regard to this question, may I ask if this officer of the Army is not a political friend of the hon. Member who puts the question, and is it not from that class you meet with opposition?
I do not know anything about that.
May I state that I was asked to put the question by the parish priest?
Irish Mills
asked the Vice-dent of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) what steps have been taken by the Department to encourage the rebuilding and equipment of Irish mills to cope with the large harvest of home-grown grain this year; whether he is aware that owners of mills complain that many weeks elapse before inspection is made and terms are offered in reply to inquiries; that the terms of repayment by five annual instalments, plus 5 per cent. interest and four personal securities for the amount borrowed, are not satisfactory to small owners, owing to the fact that they have to incur personal obligations to their neighbours to become securities; and that they think it too onerous to repay capital within five years and pay current expenses; will he say how many owners of mills have accepted these terms and how many disused mills there are in Ireland which are capable of reconstruction; and, in view of the urgent need for the provision of drying kilns in case of a wet harvest, will he state if the Department will reconsider the terms of repayment and offer an alternative acceptable to owners?
The Department have, under one of their loan schemes, offered loans, not exceeding four-fifths of the cost involved, to persons who desire to erect, repair, and equip meal mills in Ireland. No avoidable delay has occurred in sending an inspector to examine each case in which application for a loan is made. The terms of repayment by five annual instalments with interest at the rate of 5 per cent. are not unreasonable, and have not, in the Department's experience, proved any bar to applicants accepting loans. Loans of this kind have already been offered to 115 applicants in Ireland, but it is not at present possible to state how many of these will actually proceed with the reconstruction and equipment of their mills. The same loan system will be available for the erection and purchase of drying kilns, but the Department are not prepared to extend the period for repayment of these loans beyond five years.
Is it not the fact that several banks in Ireland have offered very much better terms to milling companies than those offered by the Department of Agriculture, and, under those circumstances, cannot the right hon. Gentleman see his way to approach the Treasury to improve the conditions under which they are giving advances for mills which are necessary for the food supply?
Of course, if the owners of mills can get money on better terms elsewhere they will not ask it from the Department of Agriculture.
I did not say the owners of mills, but those who are now starting to provide mills.
The whole matter is now being carefully considered, and the best terms that can possibly be given have been offered.
The right hon. Gentleman has carefully avoided stating how many applicants have accepted the terms, and in view of the absence of that information what steps is he taking to provide the necessary mills to deal with the harvest?
One hundred and fifteen applications have been granted.
Rabbit Coursing
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that meetings for the purpose of rabbit coursing take place weekly in Newcastle and in almost every colliery village in Northumberland and the county of Durham; whether he is aware that the rabbits for these meetings have to be captured by means of ferrets, nets, and other appliances, and that many thousands of such rabbits, a number of them being does heavy with young, are required to supply the demand; that these animals, having been so captured, are closely packed in boxes and sent long distances by train, and that, by reason of the heat and impaired train service, many of them are found to be dead when unpacked, and that numbers when liberated cannot run and are seized by the dogs before they have been able to move more than a few yards from the starting point; whether he is aware that these animals, after being coursed, are quite unfit for human food; and whether, having regard to the loss of food so caused, as well as to the demands made upon the railways by the constant transit of these living animals, and the cruelty involved, he will take steps to put an end to these meetings, either by forbidding rabbits to be sold off the land for such purposes or otherwise?
It is very doubtful whether the stopping of rabbit coursing would increase in any way the food supply of the country. In the circumstances it does not fall within the scope of the Food Controller to take action.
Potato Storing
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will issue an Order to the public specifying the best way of storing main-crop potatoes so as to prevent, as far as possible, the loss and deterioration in the crop that will otherwise take place?
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will state which are the best methods of safeguarding potatoes after they are taken from the ground, especially with regard to those deposited in pits and those placed under cover in buildings, and any precautions to be taken in either case?
Full information as to the proper storing of potatoes is contained in the Board's Leaflet No. 299, a revised edition of which is being issued. This leaflet will be widely circulated, and I will send copies to my hon. Friends. In the meantime, I will send them copies of a pamphlet issued by the Royal Horticultural Society, which also deals with the subject and which the Board are also issuing to inquirers.
Would it not be desirable to send a copy of this pamphlet to everybody in the House, so that they could make use of it?
I think that is a good suggestion.
Food Condemned
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been directed to the report which the medical officer of health for Stepney has submitted to his committee; whether he is aware that the medical officer states that nearly 700 tons of rotten potatoes and unsound margarine were brought by rail from Harwich to London; whether the potatoes, 13,000 bags, must have been rotten when they left Holland; and if he will explain why the inspectors at Harwich did not condemn them on the spot?
The Food Controller has made personal inquiry into the matters referred to in the report of the medical officer of health for Stepney. He is not responsible for the action of the inspectors at Harwich, but he is informed that the Local Government Board are in communication with the local authority on the subject.
Local Food Committees
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in the recommendations made regarding the setting up of local food committees, there is included one that a Labour representative should be added; and whether, in view of the proportion of the population concerned with the work of these committees being working class, the Ministry will recommend a greater share of representation of working-class interests?
It will be provided that every local food control committee must include at least one representative of Labour. Subject to a provision that the membership of the committee shall not exceed twelve, it will be left to local authorities to use their discretion to appoint as many other representatives of Labour as they think fit.
Feeding Stuffs (Prices)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he is aware that cattle-feeding food has more than doubled in price; and will he say what steps he has taken to ensure that feeding-stuffs are reduced in price so as to enable the farmer to produce beef at 60s. per cwt. in and after January next, the most expensive time for meat production?
I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given last Tuesday to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury.
Will the hon. Gentleman tell us definitely what steps have been taken by the Food Controller to lower the price of cattle-feeding stuffs?
I am not able at present to add to the answers that so far have been given on the subject.
But have any steps been taken?
Certainly!
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he will reconsider his proposal to fix the maximum live-weight price for fat bullocks in January next at £3 per cwt.; and if he is aware that, in consequence of the high price of feeding stuffs, it will be impossible for farmers to produce bullocks in that month at the price of £3 per cwt. except at considerable loss, resulting in scarcity of meat?
I have nothing to add to the answers already given on this subject except to express the hope that the price of feeding stuffs will be reduced.
Poultry
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if, having regard to the decline in the number of poultry kept and eggs produced, resulting in high prices for these articles of food in this country, he will, in view of an abundant harvest, modify the Order prohibiting the purchase of grain for poultry?
The restriction on the feeding of grain to poultry applies only to wheat and rye, to kiln-dried barley, and to maize which has been released solely for human consumption. Tailings and screenings and wheat or rye which has been so damaged as to be unsaleable for milling may be used for poultry food. The Food Controller hopes to be able to regulate the admixture of grain sold for poultry food and to reduce its price.
Do I take it from that answer that maize cannot be used for the feeding of poultry?
Only within the qualification stated in the answer.
Necessaries of Life (Prices)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give the House an early date for discussing profiteering and the price of the prime necessities of living?
The answer is in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many towns in Yorkshire seething with discontent at the present time?
Was not the hon. Gentleman present when the subject was discussed the other day: there was opportunity then for full discussion?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large part of this discontent is due to his own unhappy disclosures of his shipping profits?
I hope not. At all events, it is not always easy to conceal the truth when it is essential.
Store Cattle
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has now received any information showing that farmers are buying fewer store cattle; will he say what incentive remains to the farmer to get his cattle into good marketable condition, seeing that in the absence of competition he will obtain for his beasts the same price whether they are fat or lean; and whether he is aware that unless some further steps are taken there is a probability of a meat famine in the near future?
I have no information as to the point raised in the first part of the question, but there are indications that the price of stores will, as the Food Controller hoped, be considerably reduced. So far as sales of cattle for civil consumption are concerned, it is proposed to fix the maximum wholesale price of meat so that the price the farmer gets for his cattle will depend on their probable yield in meat. The number of cattle now berg grazed in the United Kingdom is a sufficient guarantee against any chance of a meat famine in the near future.
Has the hon. Gentleman any reason to believe that farmers will continue to breed and rear cattle when the price is going to be lowered, while the price of feeding stuffs continues to increase?
That belief is embodied in the answer I have given.
Is it to be understood that these prices suggested for the coming months will not apply to what is generally known in the trade as prime beef, but will apply to the class of cattle which formerly was known as Army contract beef?
That question covers technical points on which I would require notice.
Does the hon. Gentleman mean that the limit issued last week has been altered?
No; the answer is that it has not been.
Raspberry Crop (Scotland)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the Food Controller has appointed an agent to control and consign the Scottish raspberry crop; who the agent is; whether he is to receive a commission of £1 a ton or what other amount on the quantity obtained; and whether the Government alone have commandeered more than 3,000 tons of this crop?
The Food Controller has appointed Mr. T. M. Hodge, of Blairgowrie, to receive delivery of the raspberries grown in Scotland. His maximum rate of commission is £1 a ton, but on all raspberries delivered through associations commission will be a matter of arrangement. Mr. Hodge was informed that in the view of the Food Controller the reasonable commission, on such consignments would be 5s. a ton. The Government have requisitioned the whole crop of raspberries, which is expected to amount to 3,000 tons.
Can the hon. Gentleman say why the commission is put as high as £1 per ton, and what price is being paid for the raspberries per ton?
As to the question of price, I have as yet no figures. With regard to the other question, as the answer states, £1 is the maximum and there are two other conditions also stated in the answer.
Will the hon. Gentleman say whether those raspberries have been commandeered for Army purposes; whether the whole of them will be required for Army purposes, and what will become of those which are not required for Army purposes?
That is a question of which I shall require notice.
I will give notice.
Will all contracts previously made between retailers and growers be cancelled?
I cannot answer that point either without notice.
Beer Supplies (Ireland)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that unrest prevails among small licensed traders in Ireland who got their supply of beer and stout from local agents and not from the brewers direct; and whether he will arrange that all traders be supplied direct from the brewers a fixed quantity per week, so that the small trader will get the same advantages as the large trader?
Agents not recognised as brewers' agents have hitherto had a free hand in the disposal of the beer supplied to them by brewers, and this system has in some cases caused difficulties to small licensed traders in Ireland who bought their beer from such agents in 1915. The Food Controller is consulting the Irish brewers for the purpose of ascertaining whether any modification of the existing system can be usefully adopted, with a view to remedying this grievance.
When may we expect to know what it is intended to do?
Soon, I hope.
Could not a Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act be issued, as in the case of the Sugar Commission, making it compulsory on the wholesale houses to distribute a percentage of beer to the small traders?
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will wait until the further steps announced in the reply are taken.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the present Regulations give a complete monopoly to two or three wholesale houses in large towns?
My first reply indicated an admission that the grievance exists.
Questions
Rhodesia (Commission on Native Reserves)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the composition of the Commission on Native Reserves in Rhodesia; and how many of its members either are or were servants of the company in the administrative or commercial departments or in companies in which the British South Africa Company holds material interests?
The Commissioners appointed by Lord Gladstone were as follows: Mr. Coryndon, who is Resident Commissioner of Basutoland, chairman; Mr. Newton, treasurer of Southern Rhodesia; and Major Garraway, Resident Commissioner of the Bechuanaland Protectorate. As Mr. Newton was unable to attend throughout, Mr. W. J. Atherstone, the Surveyor-General of Southern Rhodesia, acted as alternate. Mr. Newton and Mr. Atherstone are in the administrative service of the British South Africa Company. Mr. Coryndon, who used to be in the administrative service in Northern Rhodesia, left it to serve under the High Commission ten years ago. I am not aware that any of them has ever served in the company's commercial department or was concerned with commercial affairs.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that during the investigation of a Land Commission in Rhodesia the Commissioners were accompanied throughout by the surveyor-general of the company; whether he is aware that for some years this official has been advocating a policy of cutting down the reserves; and whether, in examining the Report of this Commission, His Majesty's Government will take these facts into consideration?
As the Commission had to be absent in remote districts for long periods, the Administrator suggested the appointment of Mr. Atherstone, the surveyor-general, to replace Mr. Newton, the treasurer, who was the company's original representative. Mr. Atherstone was recommended as having a valuable knowledge of the land question, especially the reserves. Lord Gladstone proposed, therefore, to approve his appointment as alternate to Mr. Newton, and Lord Harcourt approved. I have no knowledge of Mr. Atherstone's personal views, and am content to accept the judgment of the High Commissioner and Secretary of State of the day, but I may add that if the hon. Member will read the Report when it comes out he will find that there was plenty of scope for the assistance of a surveyor-general.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the promised Report will come out?
As soon as conveniently possible, but the pressure is very great at the moment.
Has he any idea of the anticipated day?
I can promise that it will not be indefinitely delayed.
Will there be any reduction of these Reserves before the Report is issued and the whole matter comes up for discussion?
I think there is general approval of the principle, and there is no question, so far as I know, of the area being sold or going into the commercial assets of the company. If that is what the hon. Member is thinking of, that must entirely depend upon the result of the reference to the Privy Council.
Is the object of the reduction of these reserves to deprive the natives of the land and to provide cheap labour to the Rhodesian and other companies, and will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Colonial Office offers no support to anything of that kind?
I must entirely demur to the assumption of the hon. Gentleman. There is absolutely no foundation to it whatsoever.
Will the hon. Gentleman explain when he says that the principle is approved that he has not withdrawn what he has already told us that the Government has not given its sanction to the proposals in this form?
I hope I have not misled the hon. Member. If he will put down a precise question I will give him the precise facts with regard to it.
Leon Menasohe and Company, Ceylon
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has granted any permits or given permission for Vitali Menasche and Gaston Menasche, or either of them, to travel and do business in Ceylon; whether he is aware that these men, who trade as Leon Menascho and Company, are alien enemies, being subjects of Turkey, and not refugee Spanish Jews, as they would have it believed; and whether he is aware that they have abused the privilege granted to them by belittling the influence of the Government, deriding British rule, and generally acting to the prejudice of British interests with the native population?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to him by the Secretary of State for India on the 20th December last. I have had no communication from the Ceylon Government on the subject, but I will ask for their observations.
Military Service
Alran, Richards and Company
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has now been able to ascertain the number of men of military age, irrespective of their category, who are at present in the employment on the various contracts that are being executed by the firm of Alban, Richards and Company, Albemarle Street, W.; has an independent official of his Board gone into and satisfied himself as to the necessity for the exemptions claimed for and obtained by the firm; and is he satisfied that none of the employés exempted from military service are only required to work part-time with the firm and are able to carry on their own business as well?
The number of men of military age, irrespective of medical category, who are at present in the employ of Messrs. Alban, Richards and Company, Coventry Street, W., on the headquarters staff and at the eight provincial works which are within the cognisance of the Ministry of Munitions is 785. Of this number, the names of all those from eighteen to thirty-two years of age who are not in scheduled occupations have been submitted to the recruiting authorities, in order that they may be called up for medical examination. They will receive no protection from military service if they are found to be in category A. In reply to the second part of the question, an independent official of the Ministry has personally supervised all cases in which protection from recruitment has been claimed for and obtained by the firm. As to the third part of the question, I have no reason to believe that any of the employés who have been granted protection from recruitment on the ground of their employment under this firm are only required to work part-time.
Russian Subjects
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that there are large numbers of Russian subjects in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, and Glasgow; what provisions are being made for special tribunals in these cities for cases arising under the Military Service (Conventons with Allied States) Act; and at what date will the tribunals, as newly set up or specially altered, be able to hear appeals?
Special provision will be made for dealing with the applications of Russian subjects in the towns mentioned, and will be announced in due course. An Order in Council cannot be made until the expiration of thirty days from the date upon which the Convention was laid before Parliament. What I have said applies primarily to the English towns mentioned, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland informs me that similar arrangements will apply to Glasgow.
Exemptions (Stepney)
asked the President of the Local Government Board how many applications have been made for exemption to the Whitechapel Tribunal and how many have been granted; and what proportion the exemptions in this tribunal bear to those throughout the country generally?
There is no "Whitechapel Tribunal" as such; I presume that the hon. Member refers to the Stepney Tribunals. I have not information at hand of the total number of applications and exemptions; but, judging from a recent return, the number of exemptions in force in Stepney compared with that of the whole country represents a ratio of less than 0.5 per cent.
Conscientious Objectors
asked the President of the Local Government Board if it was the Herts Tribunal who decided what work of national importance the sons of Dunn, the hatter, should undertake; and, if so, will he say whether, in view of the public feeling against these men being employed in these comfortable circumstances, he can see his way to obtain from the Herts Tribunal their reason for exercising such leniency?
My right hon. Friend is communicating with the Herts Appeal Tribunal with a view to obtaining the information desired by my hon. Friend.
Has my hon. Friend noticed that the men concerned in this question refuse even to destroy insects, and as they are all concerned in agricultural pursuits will he see that they are all sprayed?
Would these sons be called mad hatters?
Is it not somewhat extraordinary to find five sons in one family being given work in the country of national importance?
The only thing asked in the question is whether the President "can see I is way to obtain from the Herts Tribunal their reason for exercising such clemency?" I have told the hon. Member that we are in communication with that tribunal now with the object of obtaining the information desired, and I can say no more.
Clerks (Electric Lighting and Gas Companies)
asked the President of the Board of Trade why so many clerks of military age in the offices of electric lighting and gas companies are allowed to be badged and classified by the companies themselves as skilled workers; whether these men, many of whom are Class A men, are engaged on clerical work which women could do; and whether, in view of the pressing demand for men by the military authorities, he will take the necessary steps to have all men of military age employed by electric lighting and gas companies as clerks debadged?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. All war service badge certificates were withdrawn on 7th May, 1917. The protection from recruitment of the clerical staff of electric lighting and gas companies is dealt with in some cases under the Schedule of Protected Occupations; in other cases by local tribunals. The Schedule provides that in electrical and gas undertakings certified by the Ministry of Munitions under the Munitions of War Act, technical staff and clerks possessing high technical knowledge shall be protected from the age of twenty-five upwards, and other clerical staff from the age of thirty-two or below that age if they are not fit for general military service, category A. I was not aware that any category A clerks below those age limits were being protected in undertakings dealt with under the Schedule. If the hon. Member will give me the names of any undertakings as to which he has definite information, I shall be glad to make inquiry into the position.
Unqualified Dentists
Departmental Committee (Terms of Reference)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Departmental Committee which has been appointed by the Lord President of the Council, acting on behalf of the Government, to consider the expediency of legislation prohibiting unqualified practice in dentistry contains a large representation of medical men and registered dentists, but no representative of the unregistered dental practitioners, who will be so vitally affected by the proposed legislation; and whether he will take steps to appoint representatives of the unregistered dental practitioners upon the Committee?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Departmental Committee appointed by the Home Office to consider the use of cocaine in dentistry included three Members of Parliament and only two other members, but that the Departmental Committee which has now been appointed by the Lord President of the Council to consider dental legislation includes only one Member of Parliament and seven other members; and whether, as legislation is involved, he will strengthen the Committee by adding Members of Parliament representing all sections of opinion in the House of Commons?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Lord President of the Council, acting on behalf of the Government, has appointed a Departmental Committee to consider the expediency of legislation prohibiting the practice of dentistry and dental surgery by unqualified persons, and that the membership of the Committee is confined mainly to medical men and registered dentists, whose opinions are well known and have been frequently expressed; and whether, with a view to securing impartiality, he will consider the desirability of appointing a Parliamentary Committee, drawn from all sections of the House, and in which the public could have confidence?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Lord President of the Council, acting on behalf of the Government, has appointed a Departmental Committee to consider the expediency of legislation prohibiting the practice of dentistry and dental surgery by unqualified persons; whether there is any demand for such legislation from any section of the community except those professionally interested; whether the matter is urgent; and, if not, whether action will be deferred until after the War, in view of the desirability of avoiding the discussion of controversial topics in the House of Commons at the present time?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that there is dissatisfaction with the composition of the Departmental Committee which has been appointed by the Lord President of the Council, acting on behalf of the Government, to consider the expediency of legislation prohibiting unqualified practice in dentisty; and whether the Committee will be strengthened by the addition of representatives of the unregistered practitioners in dentistry, and also by the addition of Members of Parliament representing all sections of opinion in the House of Commons?
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that there is dissatisfaction with the appointment and composition of the Departmental Committee which has been set up by the Lord President of the Council, acting on behalf of the Government, to consider the expediency of legislation prohibiting unqualified practice in dentistry; and whether an opportunity will be given for the discussion of the matter in the House of Commons before the Committee proceeds to hear evidence or take any other action under the powers conferred upon them by their appointment?
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a communication from the Incorporated Dental Society protesting against the appointment and composition of the Departmental Committee which has been set up by the Lord President of the Council to consider the expediency of legislation prohibiting unqualified practice in dentistry; whether the Incorporated Dental Society has asked that representation should be given on the Committee to members of the society and other unregistered practitioners in dentistry; and, if so, whether it is proposed to accede to this request?
asked the Prime Minister whether the Departmental Committee appointed by the Lord President of the Council to consider the expediency of legislation prohibiting unqualified practice in dentistry has been set up with the authority or at the request of the Government; if so, will he say why the matter is considered urgent at the present time; and is he aware that a Parliamentary Committee would command greater public con- fidence than a Departmental Committee consisting almost exclusively of medical men and registered dentists, whose opinions on the matter are well known and have been frequently expressed
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the number of registered dentists in this country is insufficient to meet the dental needs of the community; whether he is aware that especially in industrial and agricultural areas, these needs are largely met by unregistered practitioners in dentistry; whether he will explain why, under these circumstances, the present time has been chosen for the appointment of a Departmental Committee by the Lord President of the Council to consider the expediency of legislation prohibiting unqualified practices in dentistry; and whether, if the Committee is to proceed to take action under its terms of reference, it will be strengthened by the addition of representatives of the unregistered practitioners in dentistry whose interests are affected by this investigation?
asked the Prime Minister whether there are any representatives of unregistered practitioners in dentistry on the Departmental Committee which has been appointed by the Lord President of the Council, acting on behalf of the Government, to consider the expediency of legislation prohibiting unqualified practice in dentistry; whether he is aware that the medical profession and the registered dentists are fully represented on the Committee; and whether, if the unregistered practitioners are not already represented on the Committee, adequate representation will be given to them before any sittings are held or other action taken?
It is not the case that the Committee referred to is confined mainly to medical men and qualified dentists: there are only four such persons out of the eight composing the Committee and of these only one is in practice. No legislation is proposed, but the Committee which contains a Member of each House of Parliament is asked to consider the propriety of proposing it. The greatest care will be taken to obtain the evidence of unqualified dentists through such recognised channels as are available. The War has brought the scarcity of qualified dentists into prominence and the object of the appointment of the Committee at the present time is to prepare the way for legislation, if desirable, on the return of peace. I will circulate the terms of reference of the Committee.
The following are the terms of reference to the Departmental Committee:
The Lord President of the Council has appointed a Departmental Committee to investigate the extent and gravity of the evils connected with the practice of dentistry and dental surgery by persona not qualified under the Dentists' Act; and to consider and report upon
1. The causes of the present inadequate supply of qualified dentists and dental surgeons;
2. The expediency of legislation prohibiting in the United Kingdom the practice of dentistry and dental surgery by unqualified persons; and in the event of such legislation being deemed expedient, the conditions, under which certain classes of unqualified persons at present engaged in the practice of dentistry might be permitted to continue in practice, by the institution of a special roll for the purpose.
3. The practicability, without impairing the existing guarantees for the efficient practice of dentistry of (a) modifying the course of study and examination prescribed for dental qualifications; (b) reducing the time-occupied; (c) diminishing the cost of training dental students.
The chairman of the Committee is the right hon. Francis Acland, M.P., and the members are the Viscount Knutsford, Sir Almeric FitzRoy, K.C.B., K.C.V.O., clerk of the council; Sir Arthur Newsholme, K.C.B., M.D., F.R.O.P., medical officer of the Local Government Board; Sir George Newman, M.D., chief medical officer of the Board of Education; Charles Sissmore Tomes, Esq., F.R.S., F.R.C.S.; William Henry Dolamore, Esq., M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P., L.D.S.; and George P. Blizard, Esq.
F. H. O. Jerram, Esq., staff clerk in the Local Government Board, will act as secretary.
If the Committee contains two medical men and two registered dentists, would it not be reasonable that at least there should be two unregistered representatives?
Perhaps it would be better for my hon. Friend to read the terms of reference, and a list of the members of the Committee.
Does not my right hon. Friend recollect that this Committee has been set up as a result of the agitation against the use of cocaine, and that the House of Commons has succeeded in retaining these unregistered dentists, and would my right hon. Friend like to be tried on a Committee on which he was not represented?
Yes, if I am ever tried; but I do not expect to be tried. Still I would suggest that the hon. Member had better read the terms of reference.
I have read them.
Is it not reasonable that unregistered dental practitioners who are so vitally affected should be represented as well as the medical men and registered dentists?
I can add nothing to the answer I have already given. There is only one medical man who, by any possibility, could be supposed to be personally influenced in the matter. I am sure the Lord President of the Council has appointed a Committee which he thinks will be fair and just. I would suggest that hon. Members should look over the names of that Committee.
I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the Adjournment to-night, or, if not then, at the earliest possible opportunity.
Questions
Royal Army Medical Corps
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the shortage of doctors to meet the civil requirements of the nation, he will institute an inquiry into the administration and organisation of the Royal Army Medical Corps in order to ascertain whether the services of medical officers who have joined the Army are utilised to the fullest extent?
The Army Council are fully alive to the shortage of medical officers and are watchful that the fullest use is made of all medical officers employed by the Army, but it is not pro- posed to institute at the moment any inquiry while active operations are in progress, which might dislocate and militate against the effective administration of the forces in the field.
Does the War Office intend to do anything?
Well, the business of the War Office is to consider the demand made by the Higher Command.
Has a Departmental Committee considered the extent to which the services of medical practitioners now in the Army are being utilised?
No; but my information is that the officers of the Higher Command are satisfied that there are none of the medical practitioners who are not being used in the best way.
The question really is as to whether all of them are being utilised in the best way.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that civilian medical practitioners who joined the Army twelve or eighteen months ago, and have been abroad, have only done real medical work for a few hours during the whole of that long period?
I do not know where my hon. Friend gets his facts—
They are true.
But I am glad, in a way, that doctors are largely unemployed at the front; it shows that the casualties are few. At the same time at any given moment the casualties may be very severe and very numerous.
Is my hon. Friend not aware that a large part of the time of these medical men is taken up with work which is not medical, and which could be done by laymen who have had no medical experience?
Prisoners of War
asked the Prime Minister, in view of the necessity of food economy and the rapid increase in the number of German prisoners in Great Britain and France, whether the Government will take into consideration the fact that steamers return to the United States and Canada very largely in ballast and arrange with the Governments of the United States and Canada for the prisoners to be sent to those countries, where there is plenty of wheat?
As employment can be found for all combatant prisoners of war in this country and in France who are available for the purpose of labour, the adoption of this proposal is not considered to be advisable.
Ministerial Offices
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of separating the positions of Leader of the House and that of Chancellor of the Exchequer, so that the holder of the latter position will be able to devote the whole of his attention to the complex subject of the control of national finance and expenditure; and, seeing that even in peace time it has been found almost impossible for any one man to hold these two positions, he will consider the advisability of reverting to the almost invariable custom of recent years and arrange for the First Lord of the Treasury to act as Leader of the House?
The suggestions made in the question have been considered by the Government, but we do not propose at present to make any change in the existing arrangements.
Are there not Ministers without portfolios?
Registrars (Treasury Loan)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the reason for the suggested Treasury loan to the registrars; and if they will be expected to give bonuses there from to their staffs?
The expediency of granting a loan to County Court registrars to tide them over a difficult period is under the consideration of the Treasury, but no decision has yet been arrived at. If a loan is granted, the registrars will have complete discretion as to how they use it.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has seen the comparative statement sent to the superintendent of the County Courts Department of the Treasury by the Registrars' Association, giving the remuneration received by registrars before and after the War, showing decreases varying from 40 per cent. to 60 per cent.; and, if so, whether he will say if it is expected that registrars can pay bonuses when in many cases the salaries they now receive from the Treasury do not amount to what they pay their staffs?
I have not had an opportunity of examining the statement referred to, which was only received yesterday by the superintendent of the County Courts Department. The amount of the remuneration which registrars pay their employés is a matter within their discretion, but I would point out, apart from the salaries which registrars receive under Section 45 of the County Courts Act, 1888, they may, in many cases, have at their disposal for the payment of clerks moneys derived from private practice. It is also probable that many members of the clerical staff have left for military service or other work, with the result that there are smaller demands to be met from the registrars' diminished salaries.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is prepared to recommend that the registrars and acting high bailiffs of the County Courts wherein the issue of summonses is under 6,000 per annum be paid a fixed salary, as in the larger Courts, so that they may be enabled to pay war bonuses to their staffs, such fixed salaries to be based on the average gross salaries received during three normal years, say, 1911–1913?
The salaries of the registrars of County Courts referred to are statutory, and the Treasury have no power to pay fixed salaries based on the average gross salaries received during three normal years.
Dockyard Pensioners (Bonus)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has considered the question of allowing a small bonus during the period of the War to dockyard pensioners whose pensions range from 10s. to £l; whether he is aware that such pensions, owing to the rise in prices, are only worth 5s. to 10s. at the present time; and, seeing that 2s. 6d. a week has been granted to old age pensioners, will he extend a similar privilege to the class of dockyard pensioners mentioned?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 16th ultimo to the question put by the hon. Member for Dublin Harbour as to a war bonus for Government pensioners generally. The Government cannot contemplate any special treatment of the particular class referred to.
Have not the Government taken into consideration a special class in the case of the old age pensioners; and if they have done so in that case, why not with regard to dockyard men?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has received from their Lordships of the Admiralty a letter forwarded to the Admiralty by the members of the dockyard Committee calling their attention to the evil effects of the regulation that prevents a dockyard pensioner, if he returns to the yard, drawing both pay and pension; whether the letter asks for favourable consideration of the position; and, if so, will he say what the Treasury propose to do in the matter?
I have received through the Admiralty representations on this and other points from five hon. Members representing dockyard towns and navar ports. The Regulation which prohibits the issue of pension in full to a civil pensioner who is re-employed at his full former pay is statutory, namely, Section 20 of the Superannuation Act, 1834. The principle of this Section is of general application throughout the Civil Service, and I can hold out no prospect of legislation to exempt the particular class in question from its operation.
Are we to understand that the Government really intend a dockyard pensioner to go in the yard again and work without paying him his money and his pension?
Alien Enemies Interned
asked what allowances are paid to the wives of interned alien enemies, and also if any allowances are made for children; if the amount has been reduced or increased recently; and if he will state the total number of weekly allowances which are paid and the estimated cost per annum?
Allowances from public funds are made only in the case of Britishborn wives of such persons and their children. The maximum allowances (which were increased in February last) are now in London 12s. 6d. a week for the wife and 3s. for each child, and in the provinces 10s. for the wife and 3s. for each child. Approximately 4,000 wives and 7,500 children in England and Wales are receiving allowances at an annual cost of about £140,000.
Housing (Rural Districts)
asked what steps are being taken to provide more cottage accommodation in the rural districts, seeing that many agricultural labourers who occupied cottages attached to a farm are-gone to the War, leaving their wives and children in occupation, and will come back disabled and unfit for agricultural work; is he aware that the farmer requires the cottage for an able-bodied man, yet cannot feel justified in turning out his old workman; and if he will take steps to see that provision is made for the soldier and also for the workmen necessary for carrying on the farm?
My right hon. Friend has recently issued a Circular to local authorities in England and Wales, including councils of rural districts, with a view to ascertaining their opinion as to the housing needs of their districts. The whole question of the housing of the working classes is receiving his attention and the particular aspect referred to is not being overlooked.
Times Cold Storage Company (Wages)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, at the Times Cold Storage Company and the refrigerators of the Sansenina Company, both situated in Long Lane, Smithfield, and both handling Government-purchased meat, permanent men are only paid 37s. 6d. per week and casual labour 7d. per hour day-work and 9d. per hour night-work; whether he is aware that at the joint conference of employers and employed held at Liverpool the following terms were arranged for cold storage men: 49s. 6d. minimum for six days for permanent men, hours 57 weekly, overtime 1s. 1d. per hour; and for casual men 9s. per day of nine hours and 4s. 6d. per half-day, half-day to be the minimum payment; that on casual night-work a whole night is paid 13s., and half a night 6s. 6d., with 1s. 7½d. per hour for overtime; and that all other grades are fixed with these terms as the basis of calculation; and whether he will bring pressure to bear on the two firms in question to pay the standard rate of wages?
Representatives of these companies have been seen by an officer of the Chief Industrial Commissioner's Department. They state that their rates of wages are different from those given in the hon. Member's question, that they have not received an application from or on behalf of their workpeople for an increase of the rates, and that they are quite prepared to discuss questions of wages with their employés.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the Pensions Minister whether, in view of the fact that men permanantly disabled are kept in a state of suspense and forced to undergo repeated medical examinations extending over long periods of time, discretion will be given to the medical boards to fix a definite period at which a final examination shall be taken and a man's case concluded?
In the case of disabled soldiers and sailors who have specific injuries, the appropriate permanent pension is as a rule fixed at the time of discharge; but in the case of men invalided through disease, the permanent pension cannot be fixed until it is seen what course the disease will take. It is impossible to fix a period at the end of which such a man's final examination will take place, but I am making arrangements to reduce the number of re-examinations by extending pensioners' conditional periods, especially when the degree of disablement is not great.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much longer than six months?
There is no fixed period. It is sometimes nine months and sometimes twelve months.
asked with regard to the case of Private R. Londers, No. 2416, l/8th Lancashire Fusiliers, of 18, Sherratt Street, Chapel Street, Salford, who was discharged in August, 1916, twelve months ago, how is it that, in spite of repeated applications, no pension has yet been fixed or paid; and whether he will at once have the case looked into?
Private Londers does not appear to have been discharged from the Army, and he is not, therefore, eligible for pension.
May I give the information to my hon. and gallant Friend, in order to have the case inquired into?
Certainly; if the hon. Member sends me further information, I will have it inquired into.
asked the Pensions Minister whether he is aware that inquiries are made at the military hospitals, when examining a man with a view to fixing his disablement pension, as to whether he is working, and, if so, how much he is earning; whether he is aware that such inquiries are regularly made at the Whitworth Street and other hospitals in the Manchester area; and whether he will explain why such inquiries are made, in view of the provision of the new Warrant that a man's earning capacity is. not to be taken into account in assessing his pension?
I hope the hon. Member is referring to circumstances that no longer obtain. My attention was called some little time ago to the inquiries referred to in the second part of the question, which probably resulted in the use of some obsolete form, and instructions were issued to prevent a recurrence of the irregularity.
May I send the right hon. Gentleman evidence on the point?
Certainly. It may be that inquiries have been made, and there may be some justification for that course.
Is it a fact that the only case in which the Medical Board can ask a man his actual earnings is where they are fixing an alternative pension?
That is the only case, and not always then, because there are certain cases examined in which no such inquiry should be made, and if any such case is inquired into it is contrary to the Regulations, and if it is being done we shall have it stopped at once.
Evicted Tenants (County Kerry)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he proposes to take any steps to acquire land for Mrs. Malone Dingle and Mr. M'Carthy Dingle, both evicted tenants?
This matter is not in the discretion of the Chief Secretary. It is under the control of the Estates Commissioners in Ireland. As regards Denis McCarthy, the Commissioners inform me that, after inquiry and consideration, they decided to take no action with reference to his application for reinstatement in a holding formerly occupied by him on Lord Ventry's estate, county Kerry. I would refer the hon. Member to my previous answers as to the case of Mrs. Malone.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are numbers of evicted tenants in the different counties of Ireland whose land has been acquired by the Estates Commissioners, and who were afterwards not reinstated?
I am not able to answer general questions of that kind. When a case arises I will have it investigated.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland why the Congested Districts Board have not yet provided John Costello, evicted tenant, of Ballyburke, Ayle, Westport, with a holding of land in accordance with the provisions of The Evicted Tenants Act, 1907; is he aware that Costello's application was lodged with the Estates Commissioners in due time, that he is of excellent character, and that the Commissioners have reported favourably to the Board upon, the case; and can he say when the Board intend to deal with the application, which was lodged nine years ago, and to extend to Costello the benefits of the Act passed for the relief of evicted tenants?
John Costello lodged an application for reinstatement in a small holding in the townland of Gortnagusetaul now incorporated with the adjoining hold- ing. The Estates Commissioners had no power to interfere with the present tenant and they have no land at present in county Mayo on which they can provide Costello with a holding. At the request of the Estates Commissioners the Congested Districts Board considered whether they could provide a holding on any of their estates, but were unable to do so.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he can state why the Estates Commissioners refuse to take any action with reference to the application of Bernard M'Dermott for a holding of land in lieu of the one from which he was evicted on the estate of Lewin, county Mayo; whether he is aware that M'Dermott was evicted from his holding for the non-payment of only one year's rent which was subsequently realised by Lewin by the sale of M'Dermott's hay left on the land at the time of the eviction, and will he say whether notice of the application was lodged by M'Dermott with the Estates Commissioners in due time in accordance with the Evicted Tenants Act, 1907; and whether, seeing that M'Dermott is an industrious man of excellent character, and as the case appears to be one of extreme hardship, the Commissioners will reconsider it with a view to extending to the applicant the benefit of the Act passed for the relief of evicted tenants?
The decision of the Estates Commissioners not to take any action with reference to this application was arrived at after inquiry, and in the exercise of the discretion vested in them. They inform me that they cannot see their way to vary their decision.
Secondary Education (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the amounts voted for secondary education by the State are, for the year 1917, England £1,400,000, Scotland £300,000, and Ireland £40,000; whether, in addition, England and Scotland raise each considerable amounts from local rates for this purpose; and whether, considering the condition of secondary education in Ireland and the need of a system which will be of some practical benefit to the country, he will have this whole question inquired into by manufacturers, agriculturists, etc., with a view to arrange a scheme of some service to the country?
The funds for secondary education are raised in different ways in different parts of the United Kingdom, and any comparison based on the Parliamentary Estimates would be misleading. In England and Scotland contributions are obtained from the rates, and in Ireland, as the hon. Member is no doubt aware, there is an endowment from the Irish Church Surplus. As to the rest of the question, I cannot add anything to the answer I gave on Tuesday.
Was not the sum £48,000 and not £40,000, as stated in the question?
I do not think that the sum referred to by my hon. and learned Friend is the same sum.
Is it not a fact that the amount voted for the three countries by the Treasury is the amount given in my question, and if so would not Ireland be entitled on a population basis to at least £175,000? Shall we get that, and, if so, when?
I am sorry to say that the conditions are so different that it is impossible to work out any sum which gives a true view of Ireland's present conditions. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it is a very difficult subject.
As the condition of secondary education in Ireland is so scandalous, may I press the right hon. Gentleman to take some steps so as to secure an arrangement in something like conformity with the requirements of the country?
Nobody knows better than my hon. Friend what enormous difficulties there are in doing anything in reference to education in Ireland.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not take some steps to protect the interests of secondary education in Ireland?
National School Teachers, Ireland
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, for the purpose of the new scale of salaries for national teachers in Ireland, every school entitled to three teachers will be considered a large school, the principal of which will be entitled to the supplementary salary of from £30 to £50 a year; and whether he is aware that in the regula- tions of the Irish National Board of Education a large school, for which a special programme is provided, is defined as a school entitled to three teachers, irrespective of whether there are 140 pupils on the rolls or not, and that a school having 140 pupils is entitled to four teachers?
The Commissioners of National Education propose that grants of supplementary salary under the new scheme should be confined to the principals of schools with average attendance of at least 140 pupils. The attendance required for a staff of three teachers is only ninety-five. The Commissioners expect the full programme of instruction to be taught in schools with three or more teachers, but this has no bearing on the question of the size of the school in which the supplementary salary will be paid.
Am I right in saying that, according to the statement of the Chief Secretary, he described the school in two ways—that it should be either a large school and have three teachers, or a school with 140 pupils?
No; that is a misunderstanding; certainly I had no intention of conveying any such impression as that. It was clear that the standard was the size of the school, and the object was to assure by this step forward to afford something like a reasonable pathway to teachers for obtaining a salary which would make their profession more attractive than now.
Has the right hon. Gentleman not denned the class of school requiring three teachers?
No, Sir; I have not.
Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917
Special Report from the Select Committee brought up, and read.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 126.]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Consolidated Fund (No. 4) Bill,
Naval Discipline Bill,
Public Works Loans Bill,
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill, without amendment.
Naval and Military War Pensions, etc. (Transfer of Powers) Bill,
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,
Blackpool Improvement Bill, with Amendments.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend, in connection with the present War, the Law relating to the qualifying examinations for solicitors." [Solicitors (Examination) Bill [ Lords. ]
And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the marriage of Nita Martin, of 1, Lincoln Place, Merrion Square, in the city of Dublin, with Thomas Ernest Martin, her husband, and to enable her to marry again; and for other purposes." [Martin's Divorce Bill [ Lords. ]
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered To-morrow.
MARTIN'S DIVORCE BILL [ Lords ].
Read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Supply.—Autumn Recess
Can the Leader of the House state the business for tomorrow and next week?
On Monday we propose to take the Report stage of the Corn Production Bill;
On Tuesday, the Report and Third Reading of that Bill;
On Wednesday, Supply (Scottish Estimates);
On Thursday, the Representation of the People Bill—Committee. The business for next Friday will be announced later.
As regards the business for to-morrow it has been represented to us by those interested in the Corn Production Bill that it should not be taken so soon, and it was thought an arrangement could be made by which the Report and Third Reading would be finished on Tuesday if it began on Monday.
As regards the sitting to-morrow (Friday), if the new Ministries Bill is completed to-day, we shall not sit tomorrow, but if it is not completed we shall have to sit and complete it tomorrow.
How will those hon. Members know who leave before the Debate finishes to-night?
Can the Leader of the House say whether it is proposed to take the Munitions of War Bill before the Recess?
I shall deal with that in my statement later.
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to move his Motion on the Paper relating to the Friday sitting?
What I propose is not to move that Resolution now, but, if necessary, to move it at the Adjournment.
How far is it proposed to proceed with the Representation of the People Bill before the Recess?
I shall deal with that also in my statement.
With regard to the Corn Production Bill, how can we put down Amendments before we see the final form of the Government Amendments? Is it possible to send them by post and get them on the Paper by Monday morning? Otherwise this seems a difficulty if the House does not sit to-morrow.
I see that difficulty, but I have no doubt some means will be found for overcoming it, so that the Amendments may appear on the Paper on Monday.
I beg to move, "That, for the purpose of concluding the Business of Supply for the present Session, sixteen days either before or after the fifth day of August shall be allotted under Standing Order 15 for the consideration of the Annual Estimates for the Army, Navy, and Civil Services, including Votes on Account; and, as respects the present Session, that Standing Order shall have effect as if in paragraph 7 of that Standing Order the fifteenth day were substituted for the last day but one of the days so allotted, and as if in paragraph 8 of that Standing Order the sixteenth day were substituted for the twentieth day so allotted."
As hon. Members know, by the Standing Orders of this House twenty allotted days have to be given to Supply. Since the outbreak of War, the House has been asked, and has always consented not to have the full number of days. That, I think, in itself is reasonable, not only on the grounds of pressure of other business in connection with the War, but for the very reason that during the War Votes of Credit have to be moved, and although they do not cover precisely the same ground as is covered by discussions in Committee of Supply, they do deal with finance, and they do take up a very large part of the time of the House. For instance, this Session there have been four Votes of Credit which, with the necessary Consolidated Fund Bills, have taken up eighteen sittings of the House. For that reason, the House, up to now, has always agreed not to have the full number of allotted days. In 1915 the number of allotted days was seventeen. The proposal made last year just about the same time was that the number should only be thirteen, but after some little discussion my right hon. Friend the late Prime Minister (Mr. Asquith) agreed to make it fifteen. This year we have already had fourteen and one half-day. It is proposed to have two more days, making sixteen full allotted days. I hope the House, for that reason, will consent to the Motion that I now move.
I would like to indicate, as well as I can, what is the business that we hope to carry through before the Recess and when the Adjournment will take place. The business that must be transacted includes the two additional days of Supply to which I have referred, one of which will be devoted to the Scottish Estimates, which, as I have already stated, will be taken next week, and the other of which will be given to the Colonial Office Vote and the Medical Vote. Then we intend to get the Corn Production Bill through all its stages. It will also be necessary to have a War Loan Bill. I would like to explain to the House that it is not because I contemplate having a Loan during the Recess, but it is always advisable to have the power to issue such a Loan if it should be thought necessary. It is necessary to have this Bill for this reason in addition. We shall probably have to give to the American Government long-dated notes in exchange for the Loan which we receive from them, and our power to issue such notes is limited by the powers given us in the Loan Bill. We have such powers under the last Loan Bill, but they will not be sufficient. In addition to these Bills, there will be some minor Bills, including the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, with which the House is familiar, and the Isle of Man (Customs) Bill. We also hope to get the Public Health (Prevention and Treatment of Diseases) (Ireland) Bill, and the Titles Deprivation Bill. We hope to carry the Munitions of War Bill through before the Recess, but the Minister of Munitions is engaged with the trades unions on the subject, and whether or not we can carry it through before the Recess will depend upon the result of his negotiations. I was asked as regards the Representation of the People Bill. I have stated a good many times already that we propose to carry it up to and including Clause 26. We hope, further, to have a day for the introduction of the Education Bill. So far as I know, this covers all the Bills which are likely to be required before the Recess, but it is never safe at a time like this to be certain that something else may not emerge. I think I can assure the House, however, that nothing else will be proposed on which there will be any discussion. Now, as regards the Adjournment. If the arrangement which I have indicated is carried out and the Corn Production Bill leaves this House on Tuesday night, I hope it will come back from another place to be taken up again in the week commencing August 20th, and, if that happens, I hope the House will be able to adjourn during that week, and probably early in it. The time during which it is being discussed in another place will not be lost, because the Bills which I have indicated will take all our time in this House. I have only to add that there is also a Motion on the Paper to suspend the Eleven o'clock-Rule till the end of the Session. That is usual, and it is quite as much for the convenience of the House as for the Government.
Till the Adjournment.
Yes, till the Adjournment. I think there is a general feeling that the sooner we have the Adjournment, consistent with the transaction of public business, the better. As regards the length of the Recess, I think it will be advisable not to say anything more definite until we know approximately when we are going to adjourn, but our intention is to ask the House to come back somewhere about the middle of October, so that approximately the time will be about the same as last year.
Although I recognise that there is a certain amount of force in what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has said about the limitation of the days allotted to Supply, I think, in view of the great change that has come over the procedure of the House since the War broke out, and in view of the fact that the House has now made an effort to resume its control over expenditure which it wholly abandoned during the first two years of the War, that this practice of limiting the allotted days of Supply ought to be abandoned. There is no doubt whatever that in the first year or two of the War the House of Commons was hoping that the War would come to a conclusion within a short period. No- body ever dreamed when the War started that it would last for three years. The House absolutely abandoned its rights of considering expenditure, and the result of that action on the part of the House has been very disastrous and has alarmed the country very much. The time has come when the House ought to resume its normal practice in this respect, and insist upon having at least what rights it had in the past as regards the discussion of Supply. We have started a Committee for the purpose of overhauling expenditure, but we do not know how long that Committee will sit. I do not desire to oppose this Motion. I only wish to give the right hon. Gentleman notice that if, unhappily, the War should continue for another year, I, and I think a great many other Members, will ask that the whole of this unfortunate procedure which has been adopted by the House for the first three years of the War should be definitely abandoned, and that we should review our expenditure and insist upon fuller discussions in Supply.
I think it right on this occasion to say that when this system of allotted days was first started, now nearly twenty years ago, a certain number of us who had always taken an interest in the discussion of Supply, which in the old days and in recent days were attended by exceedingly few, held the view and pressed it upon the Government of that day that the system would result in gradually undermining and destroying the control of the House over Supply and expenditure. I recollect prolonged Debates at the time on this proposal of curtailing the power of the House with regard to expenditure by this system of allotted days and then voting in a few hours on the last day of Supply millions of money, and very often a hundred millions of money without a single word of discussion. Anybody who has listened to some of the Debates which have taken place in the House during the last few months will realise that all the forecasts which we old Parliamentary hands ventured to make when this system was first introduced have been more than borne out.
4.0 P.M.
The House of Commons—this is one of the great facts the country has got to get into its mind—in this, one of its most fundamental and vitally important functions, has ceased to operate as a real check on extravagance in expenditure by the Departments. I remember in those days pointing out that when a great change was made in the procedure of the House of Commons it was a matter of ten years at least, and perhaps twenty years, before Members of the House could appreciate the effect of that change. When you make a great change in the procedure of this House the results do not become apparent immediately, 'nor in two or three years. It takes a long number of years to enable Members to realise the full effect of those changes. In those days we said that as soon as you put into the hands of the Executive the power to get all the Supplies for the year without extending the time automatically, and without reference to the criticisms made by the House, you would gradually undermine the power of the House of Commons to obtain any concessions from the Treasury Bench. We said that it did not make a pin's worth of difference to them how long the House of Commons talked about Supply or insisted upon certain points, because they would get their Supply on the last days of the Session, no matter what happened on the twenty days of Supply, and that the result would be that the restrictions which, under the old system, kept the Departments in check, would be removed, and that gradually and surely you would find that extravagance in expenditure had swollen. That is exactly what has happened. There is no doubt that both as regards expenditure and the power of the House to control the Executive Government, that control, which was mainly exercised through Debates in Supply, has been almost completely entirely swept away by the system of allotted days.
I therefore want to give notice to the right hon. Gentleman that if I chance to be in the House next Session, which is very uncertain—I do not know whether I shall be or not—I shall certainly raise the whole question, not only as regards the days allotted to Supply, but as regards the whole policy of robbing the House of its ancient right of debating every item of Supply that is asked for by the Government and instituting this outrageous system of voting £70,000,000 or £80,000,000 on the last days of Supply. I further wish to say that, during the last two or three years and still more, of course, since the War broke out, we Irish Members have sacrificed our long-established right to the three days for Irish Supply. I just want to put in a protest and to say that that system cannot continue. We have borne with it for a long time, first during the time when the Home Rule Debates occupied the whole time of the House, when we thought it was only reasonable and fair. We have always tried to be reasonable and fair if we are met in a reasonable spirit. I do not know whether the new party in Ireland will be so easily dealt with. We thought that during that time we should not press for our days of Irish Supply. Those days have passed away. The House is engaged on other matters, and Ireland gets hardly any of the time of the House now.
Whatever system of Supply is adopted —I hope we shall be able to show strong grounds for abolishing the system of allotted days and for substituting some other system which will restore in some measure the control of the House of Commons—we must reassert our lawful established right, even under the allotted day system, to have three days of Irish Supply. That was established for years, and was accepted by the Government. I myself shall put forward a claim next year that not only shall we get three of the allotted days, but that no Vote of Irish Supply shall pass without giving Irish Members an opportunity of discussing it. This presses upon us in Ireland even more than upon you in England. We have in Ireland no Executive responsible to our people at all, and we have to rely for opportunities of making complaints upon the discussion of Irish Supply. It is monstrous that Irish Votes should be rushed through under the Closure Rule without the Irish Members being able to take part in any discussion. If the new system prevails which is taken up by a large number of the Irish people of withdrawing all Irish Members from this House, for the first few months of the year it will be very comfortable for the House, because they will get rid of their trouble. I must say I have my doubts whether that policy will succeed, namely, the policy that the Irish people should not be represented here. However, so long as we are left in this House we must endeavour to do our duty by our people. Therefore, I give warning to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that when next Session comes we shall claim our right to have no vote of Irish Supply passed through the House without giving the Irish party an opportunity of discussing it.
We have heard the remarks of the last speaker in regard to the Closure of Supply. I desire to ask the Leader of the House a question on a matter which illustrates the method to which he objected. At an earlier stage in the Session the President of the Board of Education, in an interesting speech, announced a Vote of £3,500,000, which was to be applied to education. I should like to know how that matter stands. The speech of my right hon. Friend was rather a long one, and was chiefly devoted to the necessity of providing more money for teachers. The Vote of £3,500,000 was proposed for that purpose. That Vote was not carried, and went no further. We understood that it was to be debated again. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether that Vote is going to be passed under the guillotine. It was a Supplementary Estimate, and it has not passed through any of its stages in this House. The matter does not end with that one large Vote. Like other examples of extravagance in this House, whenever one accepts one thing it leads to two or three more things. I understand the Secretary for Scotland put in a plea that they should get a Supplementary Vote for Education, which has not been passed.
Yes, we have had that Vote.
Then my hon. Friends from Ireland felt that they must also get some consideration, and they got it.
We did not get our full share.
Then we Members for London, which has a better case than any other part of the country—
I thought you belonged to England. [An HON. MEMBER: "He belongs to the Empire."]
My sympathies are universal.
I thought London was in England.
Yes, London is in England. It is a very important part of England. At any rate, we have a special case in London in connection with educational expenditure. The best system of education in any part of the country exists in London—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, no!"] —yet the worst and most niggardly assistance is given by the Treasury to the London system. We had one or two deputations both to the Treasury and the President of the Board of Education with regard to the unfair and unequal treatment London was receiving under the proposed new Grant. While all the other parts of Great Britain, including Scotland, were getting 66 per cent. of their expenditure from the Treasury, or something near to that, London, under the new Grant, is only getting 40 per cent. We made our case as well as we could, and we were promised that when the matter came up again it would be dealt with in a sympathetic spirit. I might go further and say that we got a definite promise from the President of the Board. If he did not give us that definite promise, I should like him to tell us what he did promise us and how the matter stands. We understood that the poor Grant we were receiving was to be amended, but we have heard no more about it. The matter was first raised early in the Session. For some reason or other—I do not know that it is in any way due to the Government—I do not think that sufficient attention has been paid throughout the Session to this great matter.
Some opportunity might have been seized of carrying the education question a little further. The speech of my right hon. Friend was confined to almost one branch of education, namely, the inadequate salaries paid to teachers. I asked for a Return giving the facts of the case, and I was promised that Return by the Government. It was suddenly announced that one of these mysterious Departmental Committees would be appointed to consider this question of salaries, on which many strange statements had been made to the House. A second Committee was then promised. We have had neither the Return nor the Reports of the Committees, nor any more facts with regard to the matter. While I do not wish to oppose any wise step being taken in regard to education, I do say, in these circumstances, that the closuring of this large Vote in Supply is a very serious step indeed. I see that the President of the Board of Education is present, and I should be glad if he would give us some further information if this is the proper opportunity for doing so, of which I am not very sure. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is not!"] Then it is the proper occasion on which to raise the question whether such a large Vote ought to be closured. If it is to be closured without the questions I have mentioned coming before the House, and if we are left with no further information, I submit that we require some further statement on the subject.
I would ask whether the Government will not reconsider the decision to introduce an Education Bill before the Adjournment, and whether it is not the function of a War Government to deal with matters of military necessity and not with matters of domestic concern. It is really a counsel of perfection. I understand that in the eyes of its promoters the Bill will have no merit unless it provides for greater expenditure, which, at a time like this, the country is not in a position to entertain. I am as conscious as anyone of the desirability of improving the position of teachers throughout the country. That can be done without the introduction of an Education Bill, which must provide for launching out into large expenditure. The minds of business men are full of shipping, produce, how to get it home, and how to continue their businesses. The minds of most people are full of the War, men, munitions, and labour questions. I would really appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider whether this is the time to introduce a Bill, which is a counsel of perfection, no doubt to make desired improvements in education and to provide for improving the salaries of teachers, which can be done without the introduction of a Bill, but with which the bill of fare should not be burdened at the present time of crisis.
I rise to support the general plea of the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not reduce the number of allotted days of Supply. The comparison really is not in practice with twenty days, because before the War broke out it was the general practice to give an extra day or two, and in addition to that, when the then Prime Minister reduced the number of days for Supply to seventeen, there were not these numerous Government Departments which have come up since. The Standing Orders expressly lay down that Votes of Credit should not be regarded in any sense as Supply. On Votes of Credit we range over many subjects, whereas on Votes of Supply one is more or less confined to certain subjects. In addition to that, we are all very anxious to raise certain questions. It is acknowledged that on the Adjournment Motion on Lord Hardinge it was very difficult to raise the question of Lord Hardinge in an adequate form. If the Foreign Office Vote had been submitted to the House we could have raised it in an adequate form. Similarly we have never had an opportunity of discussing, during the whole of the War and for some years before, the Board of Admiralty Vote. I have asked for it repeatedly but have failed to get it.
I wish to support what has been said by the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) as to the undesirability at present of passing large masses of Votes under the guillotine. There are two objections to it. One is that it is extremely unpopular in this country. It produces the impression that the House passes enormous sums of money without any consideration, and that we are very reckless, both as regards money and the interests of our Constituents. The other objection is the House of Commons, one, well known to every Member, that it has more than anything else deprived us of our power over the actual details of each particular Ministry. What has been said by my hon. and gallant Friend (Commander Bellairs) is very marked with regard to it. It would have been very difficult for the Government to create all these new Ministries if it had meant that they had had to take another three or four days in the month of August in order to get their salaries. It would have been a much more proper position, and if they could have proved it there would have been no difficulty. But it would have made them think much longer before they created new Ministries in the somewhat careless manner they have done. What I really wish to impress upon the Leader of the House is this. We have a Committee which has just been appointed on the Estimates. Could not some arrangement be made in conjunction with them to get over this difficulty of the guillotine? The old system of getting the money practically broke down. I remember sitting in this House from about the beginning of August to the middle of September from three o'clock in the after- noon till varying times between three and nine in the morning, simply and solely in order to get the money, there being no other business whatever. It was in consequence of that that the guillotine was established. I am not quite certain, but my impression is that when it was established it was done more or less as a sort of temporary measure, and the intention was that some better arrangement for the discussion of the different Votes should be established which would make the guillotine unnecessary. I know the Leader of the House is very busy, but I would ask him to suggest to the Committee whether we could not, by some alteration of the general rules as regards Supply, make some arrangement which would enable us to get Supply in a reasonable time and in a reasonable manner without guillotining, as we have to do now, such a large amount of money all in two nights and producing that very bad impression upon the people of this country which is produced by that process, and also depriving us of the power of discussing particular Votes which we clearly ought to have and which in the old days we had to a very full extent, and I quite acknowledge to too large an extent.
I wish to ask a question with regard to one part of the business of the House which we have not yet had an opportunity of discussing and which we ought to find an opportunity to discuss before we separate for the Recess. I refer to the new Warrant for officers' and nurses' pensions. The House took a whole day to discuss the Warrant for men, and I should not like the impression to go abroad that we have not the same interest in the pensions of officers and nurses. In the officers' Warrant there are restrictions retained which the House took out of the men's Warrant and officers are put in a very much worse position than men with regard to applications for pensions in certain circumstances. I am only giving that as an example. Surely the House wants to do as well to the officer and the nurse as it has done to the ordinary soldier. I am expressing not my own view but that of the pension group, which is made up of at least three hundred Members of the House, who want an opportunity to discuss this Warrant. If the right hon. Gentleman could give us a discussion from 8.15 to 11 o'clock some night we should feel grateful. If we are to go into recess until the middle of October the Warrant would be hung up much too long and many officers' widows and dependants would not get the benefit of the scales. The scales could easily be put into operation soon, but I think if the right hon. Gentleman agrees with me, and probably I know the points in those Warrants well enough to make this request, and will give us a few hours' discussion before the Recess the House might put itself right with another large class of the community to whom they have been seeking to grant adequate pensions.
My recollection is that the reason of the twenty days was because the old habit was that Supply was pushed off till the end of the Session and no proper facilities for discussion were given. The House was kept sitting all through the small hours of the morning and Supply was discussed in a very perfunctory manner. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Balfour) proposed that in order to get over that and to allow Supply to be properly discussed twenty days should be allotted. They were twenty fixed days, which were put into the Standing Order, and they were not supposed to be altered in any kind of way except that under certain circumstances three extra days could be allotted. That, of course, resulted in some Supply having to be guillotined, but that was considered to be preferable to allowing the whole of Supply to be discussed at the end of the Session when it could not be discussed properly. The reason of that was that all Governments thought more of their own Bills than they did of Supply, and therefore they kept on putting off Supply until the end of the Session, and then they had to get it before the Recess. Whether that was a right or a wrong system I do not think this would be the proper time to discuss, but the intention was that twenty days should be given, and that intention ought to be maintained. I am quite aware that during the last two years the twenty days have been curtailed, but when they were curtailed the circumstances were very different. We were not spending the money we are spending now. It was supposed that the War would not go on as long as it has done. They were curtailed because it was an exceptional occasion, and it was thought that in the interests of everyone it would be better that Supply should be curtailed and that the House should adjourn by a certain date. At that time there was a Party truce and controversial legislation was not introduced. We have abandoned all that, and we have, during this Session, introduced a large mass of legislation, which has nothing whatever to do with the War, which may be good or not, but which is certainly controversial. Under these circumstances, in order to proceed with that legislation which they never ought to have introduced at all, the Government says, "We will curtail the days which ought to be given to Supply." Therefore they broke through the understanding which was arrived at between the House and the Government, when my right hon. Friend (Mr. Balfour) was leading the House, that these twenty days should really be put into the Standing Order, so that they could not be altered, and to enable them to do what the vast mass of the country, if not the House of Commons, thinks they never ought to have done—that is to say, introduce controversial matters during the War and take up the time of the House with other matters than those relating to the War. Leaving out the pension question there has been only one Bill introduced this Session which has really touched the War at all, and that is the Bill which enabled the Government to call back to service those people who had been medically rejected before. Under these circumstances I am not at all sure that the House ought not to insist on these additional days. If it does not do that, it ought to get an undertaking from the Government that if the War could last for another Session there will be no attempt to curtail the twenty days which are the right of private Members, and which, in my opinion, ought not to have been curtailed at all.
I hope the House will now come to a decision on this question. The speech of my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) has one logical flaw, which he will notice at once when I point it out to him. The ground of his objection to-day is controversial legislation introduced this year, but I happened to be present when he made practically the same speech last year. As regards the general question, my right hon. Friend has given an answer of some weight to the general statement made by the hon. Member. He told us that the country was greatly shocked by these guillotines. We have different methods of judging the feeling of the country. So far as I can judge, that is the last thing that excites the country. I was present in the House when we used to have those all-night sittings to discuss Supply at the end of the Session. I can assure the House that however bad the present arrangement is, it is much better than the arrangement which existed before. What happened was that all Supply was shoved over until the end of the Session. The arrangement that one day a week could be devoted to Supply and that the discussion could be taken on subjects in which the House was most interested was a great improvement on the old system. I admit that the system of the guillotine is a very absurd one and if anyone could suggest a practical improvement I would be the first to try to fall in with it. As regards the speech of the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon) and that of my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury), I may say that, so far as the next Session is concerned, that does not greatly excite me. The hon. Member for Mayo suggests that possibly he may not foe here next Session. If there were any betting on the subject, he is more likely to be a Member of the House than I am to be Leader of the House, but I will leave that matter to take care of itself. The other question which was referred to by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Lough) was in regard to education. He has a grievance about London. I have heard that grievance very often in the past. I think he must admit that this is scarcely the proper occasion to go into that grievance, and I am sure, although it will not be the best possible occasion, his ingenuity will enable him to raise it when the Education Bill is introduced. That will, at all events, be a better occasion.
What about the Closure?
It will pass automatically by the guillotine. After all, that is not a very great grievance compared with many others. The subject was discussed, and it was mainly an accident that the Vote was not passed.
No; it was done intentionally.
At any rate, there was a discussion. As hon. Members know, large sums of money go without any discussion at all. The hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) asked about the new Warrant for officers' and nurses' pensions. I can assure him that that is a subject in which he will have the whole sympathy of the House, and if it is possible that shall be considered. I do not know whether it will be possible to give it adequate consideration, or any consideration at all, but I will promise to carefully consider whether it is possible for time for discussion to be given before the House-adjourns. I hope the House will now come to a decision.
I think the Leader of the House has offered a somewhat inadequate reply to the right hon. Member (Sir F. Banbury) and the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon). We are not interested in the melancholy reflections of the Leader of the House and the hon. Member for East Mayo as to next Session. We are interested in what is happening now. Whatever reasons may have been urged last year for limiting the number of days for Supply, I think they are not applicable now in view of the large number of new Departments which have been created. Of those new Departments we have only been able to discuss Votes in regard to two. We have not discussed the Ministry of Shipping. Very important arrangements have been made by the Ministry of Shipping, which it is of the utmost importance should come under the view of this House, notably the arrangements in regard to the provision of new shipping for carrying on our mercantile marine, and also the arrangements which they are making regarding the charges for freight on vessels brought to this country. This is a matter of public interest, because the method they are employing undoubtedly is contributing to the increased cost of food at the present time. But as the Vote for the Ministry of Shipping is not to be discussed, no single Member, no matter how competent he maybe, or how much knowledge he may have on the subject, is to have an opportunity of expressing an opinion on this most important matter. In the same way the Ministry of Labour has not come up for discussion in Supply. We know that a great deal of the confusion that has arisen in connection with labour unrest is due to the fact that labour in this country is not under one Department, but is divided between two Departments, namely, the Ministry of Labour, whose proper function it is, and the Ministry of Munitions, which is engaged primarily with an entirely different function. I believe that if the whole duties in regard to labour had been transferred to the new Ministry of Labour that a good deal of the trouble which we have had to face during the past few months, and which has been the subject of inquiry by the Commission, would have been avoided. Yet the question of future arrangements between these two Departments cannot be considered by the House. It seems to me that this is a matter upon which the House should ask for an opportunity of expressing an opinion, because no matter can be of more urgent importance in its direct bearing on the successful prosecution of the War.
The greatest anomaly of all relates to another new Department—the Department of National Service. When the Bill was under discussion in the House we were told that the whole expenditure of this Department would come under review. It is notorious that no Department has been a greater farce than the Department of National Service. It is not only a byword in this House, but it is a byword in the country, and yet this House is going to disperse for its holiday without saying a word regarding the misappropriation of public money on this Department. The Leader of the House made some remark about the subjects for Supply being selected in accordance with the wishes of the House. I should have thought that with his usual common sense he would have abandoned that silly notion. We know perfectly well that ever since the beginning of the War, with only a few exceptions, the subjects which have been selected for discussion in Committee of Supply have been selected in accordance not with the wishes of the House, but the convenience of the Government. Practically every inconvenient subject has been avoided. In order to prove my case I am going to give the House an illustration of the difficulty of bringing an urgent grievance forward in Committee of Supply. I am going to refer to the scandal of medical examinations. I endeavoured to raise that question on the Adjournment of the Whitsuntide Recess, but for various reasons I was closured. I endeavoured, subsequently, to get the salary of the Secretary of State for War put down, but because I was a single Member and had only the support of a few Back Benchers, the Government set its face against it, and that question would never been discussed in this House at all had I not been able to enlist the sympathy and support of the Leader of the Opposition. That is a situation which should not be allowed to prevail. We know that the whole of that Debate depended upon the Leader of the Opposition; the subsequent Committee of Inquiry, and the result of that Committee, which means a complete revolution of our system of recruiting.
I think that proves up to the hilt how nearly impossible it is for private Members to have ventilated in this House any subject on which they are interested in such a form as to obtain anything. It is only when you can obtain powerful support that you can get redress. The Leader of the House says that we have opportunities on the Vote of Credit. That is quite true, but those are only illusory. One or two Members are selected to deal with a subject, and the subject is selected from a large number of other subjects, and when those Members have spoken the Minister replies, and during the whole of the subsequent Debate no other private Member has an opportunity of replying, to the Minister. That is as futile a method of discussion as it is possible to conceive. It is only when the Minister's reply is satisfactory that it is of any use. It is of no use if the reply of the Minister is of a perfunctory and unsatisfactory character. Consequently, where you have academic discussions on Votes of Credit, or on the Consolidated Fund Bill, you have no real discussions in the sense of having a discussion in which you can bring the subject-matter to an issue and test the feeling of the House and bring the Government to book for its malpractices, if they are proved. That is why I wish that the House should not in this Session, no matter how few Members may care to attend, surrender its full twenty days of Supply. We are going to be kept here a week to discuss the Representation of the People Bill before we rise. That is an. important subject, but it is equally important that this House should control the expenditure of the country. I have pointed out three subjects on which, I believe, it is of urgent importance that the House should engage in discussion, and in regard to which we should be entitled to review the expenditure and criticise the administration. First of all, labour; secondly, shipping; and, thirdly, and most important of all, National Service. If the House separates without having a Debate in Supply on these three important subjects it is not discharging its duty to the country, and it is not carrying faithfully the trust which is committed to it in controlling the expenditure of public money.
The right hon. Gentleman spoke very lightly about the feeling in the country in. regard to this question. I think my right hon. Friend is singularly ignorant of the feeling of the country alike in relation to the Government and in relation to this House. The Press is a most misleading guide. We have in these days a tuned Press, which says what is congenial to the Government, and consequently the Press is no reflection of public feeling. The right hon. Gentleman will see that if he goes about the country and mixes with the ordinary crowd in omnibuses and third-class carriages—if a member of the War Cabinet ever travels in a third-class carriage.
Only in a motor.
Yes, in a motor with a sixty-horse-power engine consuming petrol. Consequently the right hon. Gentleman will never be in a third-class carriage. But if he did find himself there, he would find that both the Government and the House of Commons stand very low in public estimation at the present time. I am not concerned with the standing of the Government in public esteem, but I am concerned with the standing of the House of Commons, because it is vital for the preservation of democracy, which is one of the things which we are fighting for in this War. If the House of Commons is going to maintain its credit, it can only maintain its credit by convincing the people of this country that it is vigilant in their interests, and particularly vigilant in its control over expenditure and in its criticism of public administration.
May I make an appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a private Member? I have not taken part in any Debate for the last month, but though one has not done that one has taken an interest in the affairs going on there, and I understood that if the Corn Production Bill was secured it was unlikely that other business would be taken before the Recess. Now we have suddenly, at this time of the Session, with a very tired House and Parliament, the suggestion that the Eleven o'clock Rule should be suspended, and that this large programme should be taken. I appeal to him—because we are entirely at his mercy; it is a Coalition Government that is going to press this War through, and we every one of us want to help in every way—not to use his power harshly, especially as regards the Eleven o'clock Rule, because it is a farce to ask anyone to take a real interest in anything after eleven o'clock. It may not have been so in the past, but when you have had a very long Session like this you will not get proper attention paid to detail after eleven o'clock. I hope, so far as private Members are concerned, that the right hon. Gentleman will not put too hard a task upon us in trying to carry through legislation unless it is exceedingly urgent. Of course, we have to place confidence in the Government that they will not introduce it unless it is urgent. I hope not for my own sake, because, of course, I am not thinking of that, but for the sake of the rights of the private Members of the House—they are not too strong at the present time, and there is little enough inducement to get Members to take an interest in the proceedings—that nothing will be done out of reason to use the Eleven o'clock Rule harshly in regard to matters which, although technically not controversial, are of such a character as to require attention.
I certainly accept at once what the hon. and learned Gentleman says about his anxiety to help us. I do not agree with one statement he has made, and that is that he and other Members are at the mercy of the Government. I always feel it is the other way about, and that I am entirely at the mercy of the House. I think my hon. and learned Friend is merely under a misapprehension. I do not think, with the exception of the Loans Bill, which, I presume, will not take more than hour, there is any measure that we did not indicate we intended to get before the end of this part of the Session at the time I spoke before. As a matter of fact I am convinced that this House will not be kept a day longer in consequence of what we are trying to get through than is necessary to get the Corn Production Bill back from another place. There is no intention to press more work on the House of Commons at this stage, because I realise as fully as my hon. and learned Friend that we have asked to get a great deal, and I think the House has treated the Government very well in the matter. As regards the Eleven o'clock Rule, it is invariably suspended at this part of the Session. That is for the convenience of Members just as much as for that of the Government, and I shall be very surprised if there is any need to use it excessively at all.
Question put.
The House divided: Ayes, 160; Noes, 28.
Division No.85 AYES. [4.50 p.m. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Norman, Sir Henry Adamson, William Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Ogden, Fred Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Fletcher, John Samuel. O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid.) Anstruther-Gray, Lieut.-Col. William Foster, Philip Staveley Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Archdale, Lieut. Edward M. Gardner, Ernest Parker, James (Halifax) Astor, Hon. Waldorf Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Parrott, Sir James Edward Baird, John Lawrence Greig. Colonel James William Partington, Hon. Oswald Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Gretton, John Pennefather, De Fonblanque Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Perkins, Walter Frank Barnett, Capt. R. W. Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund Beach, William F. H. Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Beale, Sir William Phipson Haslam, Lewis Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Beauchamp, Sir Edward Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Durham) Randles, Sir John S. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T. Rawson, Colonel Richard H. Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hewart, Sir Gordon Rea, Walter Russel Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Hewins, William Albert Samuel Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon) Bigland, Alfred Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Bird, Alfred Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Bliss, Joseph Holmes, Daniel Turner Robinson, Sidney Boyton, James Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Rowntree, Arnold Brace, Rt. Hon. William Howard, John Geoffrey Russell, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. Bridgeman, William Clive Hunt, Major Rowland Rutherford, Sir John (Lancs., Darwen) Broughton, Urban Hanlon Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Salter, Arthur Clavell Burgoyne, Alan Hughes Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Samuels, Arthur W. (Dub. U.) Burn, Colonel C. R. Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Buxton, Noel Jones W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Kellaway, Frederick George Shaw, Hon. Alexander Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry Spear, Sir John Ward Clive, Captain Percy Archer Larmor, Sir J. Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Clough, William Law, Rt. Hon A. Bonar (Bootle) Stanton, Charles Butt Clynes, John R. Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Steel-Maitland, Sir A. D. Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Stewart, Gershom Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Lindsay, William Arthur Stirling, Lt.-Col. Archibald Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Locker-Lampson G. (Salisbury) Terroll, George (Wilts, N. W.) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Lough, Rt. Hon Thomas Tickler, T. G. Cowan, Sir W. H. Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Touche, Sir George Alexander Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Craik, Sir Henry MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Wardle, George J. Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs) Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.) Crooks, Rt. Hon. William Macmaster Donald White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Macpherson, James Ian Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol S.) Maden, Sir John Henry Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Malcolm, Ian Williams, John (Glamorgan) Denniss, E. R. B. Mason, James F. (Windsor) Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Dixon, C. H. Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth Wilson-Fox, Henry Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Millar, James Duncan Winfrey, Sir Richard Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Yate, Colonel C. E. Duncannon, Viscount Money, Sir L. G Chiozza Yoxall, Sir James Henry Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Morgan, George Hay Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Falconer, James Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Lord Edmund Talbot and Captain Fell, Arthur Neville, Reginald J. N. F. Guest. Finney, Samuel Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
NOES. Anderson, W. C. Hackett, John Molteno, Percy Alport Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) Nolan, Joseph Bellairs, Commander C. W. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. H. Nuttall, Harry Boland, John Pins Jacobsen. Thomas Owen Richardson. Thomas (Whitehaven) Byles, Sir William Pollard Joyce, Michael Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) Cullinan. John Kilbride, Denis Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Dillon, John King, Joseph Whitty, Patrick Joseph Doris, William Lambert, Richard (Cricklade) Field, William Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Flavin, Michael Joseph Mason, David M. (Coventry) Hogge and Mr. Pringle. Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford
Ordered, "That, until the Adjournment of the House for the Autumn Recess, Government business be not interrupted under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the sittings of the House, and may be entered upon at any hour though opposed."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]
Ordered, "That the proceedings on the New Ministries [Salaries and Remuneration] Report, and the New Ministries Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]
New Ministries [Salaries and Remuneration]
Resolution reported,
"That it is expedient to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys to be provided by Parliament of an annual salary not exceeding two thousand pounds to the Minister of Reconstruction, and of other salaries and remuneration which may become payable under such Act."
Resolution read a second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
I wish to make a final protest against proceeding with this Bill. I think that to proceed with this Resolution and vote this money for a Department. in these days when everyone on every side is certain that the Bill is a farce is really beyond reason. There is no case for it. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House is anxious to cut down the business before the Recess. What can the Minister of Reconstruction do? Surely the only real act of reconstruction is to concentrate in bringing this War to a satisfactory close as soon as possible. What can the Minister of Reconstruction do in time of war? We may be involved in expenditure which one hon. Member suggested might be limited to £20,000 for this Bill, but which suggestion was treated with disdain and scorn. Yet we are asked to give the time now to vote money for a Minister of' Reconstruction. I do not say a word against the right hon. Gentleman who we understand is to be Minister of Reconstruction, but one scheme has been suggested for reconstruction, namely, that we ought to have a reform of the Bank of England and a new system of finance at the Treasury. I ask the House whether anyone here is prepared to say that this Minister who is to be appointed Minister of Reconstruction knows anything about the Treasury or the Bank of England?
That is not the question that is now before the House. The question is, Assuming that there is to be a Minister of Reconstruction, is he to be paid, and is he to get a salary not exceeding £2,000? The question of whether there is to be a Minister or not will come up on the next Order.
5.0 P.M.
I quite agree that perhaps it is very difficult to make a protest without having that information, but we know who is the right hon. Gentleman who is to be appointed. There is no Minister conceivable who could justify the voting of this money. The idea of a Reconstruction Department is an absurdity. How can you have a Reconstruction Department? You might as well say we shall vote money for the reconstruction of the British Empire. Why, our whole system of government is decentralisation. We have a Board of Trade, a Treasury, a Home Office, and various law offices. Are we solemnly to vote money to some unknown genius who is to reconstruct all these Departments? I say we should divide against the Resolution as a protest. It is monstrous that we, who really are doing our best, as was pointed out by the hon. Gentleman opposite, in a time of great stress to help bring this War to an honourable and satisfactory conclusion—it is a monstrous thing that we should be asked to vote money for some Department to set up some kind of new heaven upon earth. If you want to reconstruct—God knows there is room for reconstruction everywhere—you will have to have a committee of experts for every Department you have to reconstruct; but we are asked to vote money for some Department which is to have all the necessary knowledge, which is a physical impossibility. It is monstrous that we should be asked to attend the House and vote for this absurdity. It is a scandalous thing that men of some enlightenment should' be expected to give up their time and come here to vote a Minister £2,000 a year to reconstruct. We might as well pay for a national washerwoman or a national universal provider. I say it is really a scandal, and if any hon. Gentleman will tell with me I shall divide the House against it.
It is hopeless, of course, to advance arguments at this stage of the proceedings against the salary of £2,000, because we may make speeches for the next year if it were in order, and if we were to divide we should be beaten, and the man would inevitably get his salary. But I agree with my hon. Friend who has just sat down, in view of the fact that there are other Ministers in the Government who are already in receipt of salaries and who are not fully employed, so far as their time is concerned, that we should not grant this salary in order to compel the Government to attach this new Ministry, if they want to have it, to one of the existing Members of the Government. I think that is a straightforward proposal. It is a simple proposal, and it is an economical proposal. If the Government, for instance, find that at the moment they have not got a man to whom they can give this work, why, then, the Ministry can make a beginning by reconstructing itself in such a way that they would leave an office such as the Chancellor of the Duchy to be filled by someone who would be capable—if my hon. Friend is assumed not to be capable, which certainly I do not say—of taking on this new work. What has the Government to do to make good their case? I am not going to argue upon the merits of it. Personally, I am against the new Ministry; I think it is futile, I think it is premature, and I think it is some mere fancy window-dressing which will mean nothing. But if they are going to do it they should make out their case from the point of view of expenditure. We have just passed a great Vote of Credit, and we were told during the Debate on that Vote of Credit that the National Debt had risen to between £5,000,000,000 and £6,000,000,000. That means that if and when peace comes the national Budget for this country will certainly not be less every year than £500,000,000 to £600,000,000, or three times the taxation we were paying before this War broke out. It may seem ridiculous to ask the Government to save £2,000 a year, but if the Government cannot and will not save £2,000 they cannot expect the people outside to save smaller sums. If the public outside see economy being ignored by those who are in charge of the public purse, then the Government lose their moral strength in. making an appeal to the people to save.
The simple point we are making out at this last stage of the proceedings is that surely it is not beyond the ingenuity and the capacity of the War Cabinet, which settled the price of potatoes, to settle the big question of whether there is not one Member of this Government who could devote his time to the work of reconstruction, so that the new salary need not be provided. I appeal to my right hon. Friend who is in charge of the proceedings, and who always meets any case that is put to him with fairness, not to worry himself about repeating any arguments which have been used before, but to justify as shortly as he cares to the proposal to give this new post a salary when there are several Members of the Government who have the time and who have the capacity and the brams—because, as he knows, he and his colleagues are absolutely indispensable to the nation, and all the indispensable energy and intellect is confined to those benches. I say, surely they have the capacity to find one of their number who can take it, and who has the public spirit to do it, with the work he is doing now, without the addition of any further salary.
The hon. Member has appealed to me not to use arguments that have been used before. It is rather difficult, however, because I have to meet arguments which have been used before several times, and we are having something like a repetition of the Second Reading Debate. The question before the House is really this: Assuming that the Bill is to be passed, will the House sanction the necessary expenditure or not? That is really the only point, and I do appeal to the House not to go over again the old arguments that were used on the Second Heading of the Bill. To me this is not a waste of money. I quite agree that if the Government is not prepared to save money you cannot expect others to save; but the effect of setting up this new Ministry will itself be to save very large sums. [HON. MEMBERS: "How?"] If the Minister does his duty, the duty entrusted to him, he will be able to bring about considerable economies in the coming years. These possibilities should be borne in mind. It would not be right for me to go over the whole ground again, but I do seriously say that there is very important and vital work for this Minister to do. The more one sees of the machinery for carrying on the War the more one realises the tremendous upheaval which must come at the end of the War, and the more one is anxious about the steps to be taken for what is called "reconstruction." There is the great work of demobilisation, not military demobilisation only, but the demobilisation of the civilian army which is employed in work connected with the War. That is a matter of vital importance to the working classes of this country, and no one can go into the great munition factories and see the great bodies of men and women who are employed there without being anxious as to what the effect on those men and women will be if the War suddenly comes to an end, and we have not some Department, under a Minister, which will charge itself with the consideration of that great problem, and will recommend to the other Departments of the State directly concerned the steps to be taken.
How will this Department have the necessary knowledge?
I do not arrogate for any particular right hon. Gentleman who is to be appointed more knowledge than other people have, but it will be his duty to give his whole time and attention to these problems. He will have the assistance of the other Departments, I am quite sure, and the assistance of their officials and experts; and he will bring together the threads of these problems and be able to make to the different Departments of State suggestions that I believe will assist in solving these very serious problems. Take the great question of the discontinuance of the work which is now going on in factories connected with the War. There you have a problem which will take the whole energies of this Minister and those who assist him to solve. I know it is said we can save £2,000, but it would be a serious thing if the House were to take the step—I am sure it will not—of refusing the small Supply necessary to give effect to the Bill.
This is a great ironical result of the Debate on the Estimates a few nights ago and on the control which Members of the House have over the expenditure of money, because hardly has the Debate taken place than here we have a proposal to spend a large sum of money. Two thousand pounds is one thing, but, of course, it will involve a great deal more. A Committee has been appointed by the House to see if we cannot cut down extravagance in the expenditure. Now this is the first commentary we get upon it. It is all very well to say you will save a great deal of money here and there, and that you will have demobilisation and so forth and hundreds of other subjects, but they could have been dealt with perfectly well by the Committee you set up some time ago and which is costing nothing. You want a Committee of experts and business men. One Minister will be no use for this purpose. Let me put one matter you will have to reorganise. There is a suggestion —and it will amount to something more than a suggestion—that in coming years you will have to have some arrangement with regard to a national bank. The position of the Bank of England with regard to trade and commerce cannot be satisfactory—
That question cannot arise on this Resolution. It might properly arise on the Bill, but it certainly cannot arise now.
I mention that only as an illustration of the subjects which will have to come up. You will really require to have a Committee—that is the proper course—a Committee of patriotic men who know all about finance and all about workmen and industry and commerce, and to have them suggest to the Government how this thing is to be done and how it is to be carried on. The demobilisation of the workpeople is surely a question which the people who have created the factories will themselves deal with, without having some Minister to say to them—
That may be a good argument against having a Ministry at all, but that is not the question now. The question now is, Assuming you are going to have a Ministry, is it a proper thing to pay a salary of £2,000 or shall he get nothing?
My point was that you would get the right man for nothing and save this expenditure. You established the Ministry of National Service, and have spent a lot of money on it. In this matter the salary of £2,000, which is only part of the expenditure, is absolutely unnecessary expenditure which can be saved and which the House ought to save.
I wish to ask the Home Secretary whether the Government have absolutely made any estimate of the cost of this Department. I have had some experience of raising money for this kind of investigation, dating back since the 'eighties, and of what these things cost, and my experience shows me that inquiries of this kind are extremely costly. I could mention one or two subjects alone which would be of interest to the new Ministry, in which you must look for a cost of at least £25,000 a year in order to carry on any kind of work.
Are those inquiries necessary to-day?
We have understood that these inquiries are going to be made. I do not think that they are necessary. That is another point for consideration later on. If the Government propose to conduct large schemes of investigation into these various problems of reconstruction the cost of it, taking the whole subject, will run into hundreds of thousands of pounds.
It seems to me very strange that there should be no reply to the hon. Gentleman opposite. The point which he has raised is relevant to the consideration of this Resolution. The House should have from the Government some approximate estimate of what the Department is to cost. We know that it is the intention of the Government that this Department should not only conduct inquiries and investigations of the kind referred to by the hon. Gentleman, but should also encourage experiments. As my hon. Friend has said, experiments of the kind which they have in view are extremely costly. When you go into the region of experiments and leave it to the discretion of a Minister to say what experiments should be undertaken there is no saying to what extent you may commit the public purse in the matter of expenditure. In view of this we should have some kind of statement as to what the Government intend this to cost. The House desires that the money spent on this Department should be spent on useful things, and it is important that none of it should be spent on useless salaries. Here we have £2,000, which of course in these days of colossal sums spent daily on the War seems almost insignificant and negligible in comparison. But there is no doubt that in the present Government there are certain Ministers without departmental duties to whose offices this new Ministry could be attached, so that the salary of the Minister could be saved. There is the Chancellorship of the Duchy. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy (Sir F. Cawley) came down at a late hour last night and gave us a very interesting historical account of his office and the extremely important duties which he has to discharge. From it I gathered that he was a kind of superior land agent for certain rents, and received a salary through the Crown, but that the work which he described was not work for a Minister holding the rank of a Cabinet Minister, and it has always been so recognised in connection with that office. It is undoubtedly a Ministry of Cabinet rank, although under the anomalous conditions at present existing the right hon. Gentleman has not the status which is his due.
My right hon. Friend is an extremely able and experienced business man, and a man whose services could well be utilised from the point of view of reconstruction in regard to trade or industries in this country, of which he has a very intimate, profound, and extreme knowledge. But he is holding a mere sinecure office instead of being used for a purpose for which he is very well fit. There are other offices in the Government. There is that of Paymaster-General, to which at the present moment no duties are attached. He happens to have no salary, but I have no doubt that the present occupant of that office, who is also a distinguished business man, for the honour and glory attaching to his present post would be willing to execute other administrative duties which might be imposed on him. Then there is an office vacant. Many hon. Members may have forgotten, in the multitude of offices, that the Vice-Chamberlain of the Household has vanished into thin air. He has become Secretary to the National Service Department, and no one has been appointed in his place. Why should this office not be utilised for the purpose of the Ministry of Reconstruction? Here we have a most extraordinary situation—a Ministry with more Ministers than ever existed in the history of this country, and more men holding sinecures, and in view of the existence of so many sinecures it is the duty of the House to protest against the expenditure of public money on the salaries of new offices. This House should show that it is in earnest, and that, when there is an opportunity of preventing the incurring of extra expenditure, it should do what it can to prevent this extravagance. The right hon. Gentleman has now replied on two occasions in regard to a financial Resolution, but on neither of these occasions has he directed a single argument against the proposal to utilise existing Ministers for this purpose. He has never suggested that it is not feasible. Therefore we are driven to the conclusion that this Ministry is not required out of public necessity, but solely on account of the peculiar exigencies which made it necessary for the Prime Minister to provide for a Gentleman who has retired from the office of Minister of Munitions.
This Resolution, as I understand, deals with the creation of a Minister of Reconstruction. But Clause 6 of the Bill, though it does not profess to do so, deals with two Ministers of Cabinet rank enjoying salaries of £5,000 a year each who are without portfolio. Does the Resolution cover the salaries of these two Ministers?
It does not.
That is what I thought. Probably it will be said that Clause 6 does not create the Ministry of these two Ministers, but it does deal with them, and therefore brings them within the purview of this Act, and this affords me the opportunity of advancing certain objections to the whole procedure adopted by the Government.
That cannot be done on the Money Resolution. The Money Resolution now before the House covers solely the second Sub-section of Clause 3 of the Bill and no more. No reference to Clause 6, therefore, can be made on the present stage.
That was my impression —that it did not touch Clause 6—and I am entitled to point out that in that respect the Money Resolution is deficient. It ought to cover Clause 6, because Clause 6—
No. The proper time to raise that is when we approach Clause 6 in Committee. If the hon. Member shows that Clause 6 is not valid in Committee, then I shall have to strike Clause 6 out of the Bill.
I only desire to draw attention to the growing habit of this Government of setting up new Ministries and then throwing on the House of Commons the responsibility of finding the money. We have had a Ministry of Labour and a Ministry of Pensions, and now we have a Ministry of Reconstruction, and it has been suggested lately that we may have a Ministry of Health. All these Ministries involve an expensive staff and expensive offices. I agree with my hon. Friend behind that the work of reconstruction might well be undertaken by some of the ninety Ministers whom we have already.
I support very strongly the appeal of the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins) that this money should not be voted without something in the nature of an estimate of what the cost will be. The right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, I hope, would support the view which I myself take of this Clause—that it does not authorise any outside expenditure on making experiments, but deals solely with the cost of the staff itself. I agree thoroughly with the hon. Member that if there is any apprehension that this Ministry is going into the whole subject of experiments to ascertain what particular industries are to be inquired into and how they are to be furthered, and what experiments are necessary in order to establish the claims of particular industries, the cost would be enormous. But if this is only for the expense of the salaries and of the actual staff, I do not think the apprehension is sufficiently well founded to be any reason for declining to vote this sum. Of course, one cannot dissociate this question in one's mind from the fact that the new Minister to be appointed will be the late Minister of Munitions, who, in a speech which he made, explained the direction which research will take with a view to bringing about security, after the War, in connection with various industries. The policy which he developed had reference to the production of glass, the development of processes for the improvement of agriculture and other things, but I hope it will not extend to large experimental research beyond, but that the expenditure will be confined to the staff, who will find out what other people are doing, and make recommendations. I should like to have an assurance that this Ministry is not to have a general roving commission and to spend money on outside research.
On the point of Order, Sir. I have looked now at the text of the Resolution, and I want to call your attention to its terms and the provisions of the Bill. Clause 6 provides for the payment of the salaries of two other Ministers besides the Minister of Reconstruction, and I want to guard against my argument on the Clause being ruled out because the Resolution does not mention the other two Ministers. The terms of the Resolution are:
"That it is expedient to authorise out of the payment of moneys provided by Parliament of an annual salary not exceeding £2,000 to the Minister of Reconstruction … and to provide for the establishment of a Ministry of Reconstruction and of other salaries and remuneration which may become payable under such Act."
I would point out, Sir, that the words "and of other salaries and remuneration which may become payable under this Act" should be eliminated, in view of the ruling which you have given.
That really is not so. These words in the Resolution refer, as I stated before, to Sub-section (2) of Clause 3 of the Bill. It has nothing to do with Clause 6, and does not authorise the payment of any other salary than those referred to in Clause 3.
Question put, "That the House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
The House divided: Ayes, 142; Noes, 40.
Division No. 86.] AYES. [5.34 p.m. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke Fletcher, John Samuel Parker, James (Halifax) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Fester, Philip Staveley Parrott, Sir James Edward Anstruther-Gray, Lieut.-Col. William Gardner, Ernest Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Archdale, Lieut. E. M. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Pratt, J. W. Baird, John Lawrence Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough) Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund Baldwin, Stanley Greig, Colonel J. W. Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N. Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Quilter, Sir Cuthbert Barnett, Captain R. W. Hanson, Charles Augustin Randles, Sir John S. Beach, William F. H. Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Beale, Sir William Phipson Haslam, Lewis Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Henderson. R. Hon. Arthur (Durham) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Bellairs, Commander C. W. Hewart, Sir Gordon Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Robinson, Sidney Bigland, Alfred Holmes, Daniel Turner Russell, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. Bliss, Joseph Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Rutherford, Sir John (Darwen) Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Brace, Rt. Hon. William Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Bridgeman, William Clive Jacobsen, Thomas Owen Samuels, Arthur W. Broughton, Urban Hanlon Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Brunner, John F. L. Joynson-Hicks, William Shorn, Edward Burdett-Coutts, William Kellaway, Frederick George Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) Burgoyne, Alan Hughes Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Spear, Sir John Ward Burn, Colonel C. R. Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry Stanton, Charles Butt Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Steel-Maitland, Sir A. D. Cawley, Rt. Hon Sir Fdk. (Prestwich) Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Stewart, Gershom Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Clynes, John R. Lindsay, William Arthur Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Talbot, Lord Edmund Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Thorne, William (West Ham) Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Tickler, T. G Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Loyd, Archie Kirkman Touche, Sir George Alexander Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.) MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince) Craik, Sir Henry M'Curdy, Charles Albert Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) Crooks, Rt. Hon. William Macmaster, Donald Wardle, George J. Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.) Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Maden, Sir John Henry Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Malcolm, Ian Williams, Aneurin (Durham) Dixon, Charles Harvey Millar, James Duncan Williams, John (Glamorgan) Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Morgan, George Hay Wilson-Fox, Henry Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Morison, Hector (Hackney, S.) Winfrey, Sir Richard Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Wolmer, Viscount Falconer, James Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Yate, Colonel C. E. Fell, Arthur Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Yoxall, Sir James Henry Finney, Samuel O'Grady, James Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Guest and Mr. James Hope. Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue
NOES. Anderson, W C. Gretton, John Ogden, Fred Baker. Joseph Allen (Finsbury E.) Hackett, John Partington, Hon. Oswald Boyton, James Karris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Pringle, William M. R. Burns, Rt. Hon. John Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) Rawson, Colonel R. H. Byles, Sir William Pollard Hogge, James Myles Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Clive, Captain Percy Archer Houston, Robert Paterson Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Keating, Matthew Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Cullinan, john Kilbride, Denis Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Davies, Timothy (Lines. Louth) King, Joseph Whitty, Patrick Joseph Dillon, John Lambert. Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Doris, William Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Duncannon, Viscount Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) field, William Nolan, Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir F. Flavin. Michael Joseph Nuttall, Harry Banbury and Mr. David Mason. Geddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford
New Ministries Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Establishment of the Ministry of Reconstruction)
With a view to promoting the work of organisation and development after the termination of the present War, it shall be lawful for His Majesty to appoint a Minister of Reconstruction, who shall hold office during His Majesty's pleasure.
I beg to move to leave out the word "promoting" ["promoting the work"], and to insert instead thereof the word "co-ordinate."
I think the word "promoting" is an unfortunate one and liable to cause a wrong impression. I am convinced that if the Home Secretary were to go before public audiences in the country and were to use the word "promoting" in explaining the Bill, he would not popularise the measure, because he would find that the audience in many cases would have very great difficulty in accepting the word "promoting." The Bill says, "in promoting the work of organisation and development." The one thing the Englishman claims to have is self-reliance; he considers it as his national heritage. The Germans, it is true, suffer under all sorts of restrictions, State aids, and State regulations, but a people of energy and self-reliance, under a measure like this, might possibly be made angry and discouraged if they were subjected to official interference. Men of push and go do not like the idea of Departmental interference with their work; they have self-reliance, and they want to feel that they can rely upon their own enterprise, unlike others who do not make an effort and who are willing to wait until the Department comes along to help them. I was greatly struck by one passage of the Home Secretary's speech last Friday, in which he said: the street thinks that this is a Bill to prevent overlapping and for the purposes of co-ordination and a sort of clearing house for the Departments, and if that were expressed in the Bill I think people would accept it with a certain amount of enthusiasm. I was rather interested to observe that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel), who criticised the Bill rather severely, referred to the same point of co-ordination. Ho said:
I strongly hope that the effect of the Minister's work will be to co-ordinate the work of the other Departments with which he is concerned and I adhere, of course, entirely to what my hon. and gallant Friend has been good enough to quote from my speech on Friday last. At the same time I think it would be a mistake to insert his particular Amendment, and may I say that he probably would like to insert the word "co-ordinating" instead of "co-ordinate." Looking at the substance of the Amendment, in one sense it is too strong, because I think the power to co-ordinate the work of other Departments would be interpreted as meaning that the Minister shall have paramount authority over the other Departments so as to bring their work together and make it effective. I am not quite sure and, in fact, I very much doubt whether the other Departments would welcome an Amendment in that form. In another way the Amendment is too limited. It would confine the Minister entirely to such authority as he could exercise over the work of other people, and it would deprive him of original authority, and would really cut out of the Bill the earlier words of Clause 2, which give him the power himself to consider the problems of reconstruction and to make recommendations on them. I look on that as one of the most valuable parts, perhaps the most valuable, parts of his work, and I should be sorry to see those words left out. I hope the hon. and gallant Member will not persist in his Amendment.
There is, of course, a good deal of point in what the Home Secretary has said, but I think there is also a good deal of point in the Amendment, and I should like to combine the two phrases, "promoting" and "co-ordinating," and I do not see why the Home Secretary and the Mover should not accept the proposal in that form. What you want is not now to start the work of reconstruction. That has been started for months and years, and there have been a good many reports upon it. What you want is not to start promoting those inquiries, but to use the inquiries that have already been held and bring them into line and bring together the whole subject as far as it can be coordinated, which is a very good word, so as to make some harmonious whole out of a great number of Departmental Committees and various schemes that have been undertaken. I see this work of re-construction proceeding before our eyes. In an answer to-day to a long series of questions about dentistry, we were told that the position was so serious that you wanted a scheme for the practical reorganisation or reconstruction of the whole dental service of the country after the War, and, without waiting for the Ministry of Reconstruction, the Government have set up a Reconstruction Committee on this point. There you have a clear case of work for the Ministry of Reconstruction to bring that into line with his own inquiries, and with some of the other schemes which may have been or can be brought forth as part of the new system under which we shall live after the War. Therefore, I think there is point in the Amendment that the word "co-ordinate" should be inserted, and I think it should come after the word "promoting."
I should like to support the contention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. This Clause does not deal with the functions of the Minister, but with the intentions of His Majesty. I do not like the grammar or the English of the Clause. I think it is exceedingly bad, but at the same time this Clause is quite different from Clause 2, which really deals with the functions of the Minister. I therefore hope my hon. Friend will not press the Amendment.
I would like to know what exactly is meant by the words "with a view to promoting the development." The development of what?
I think the language of the Clause has been very properly criticised. The words "with a view to promoting" seem almost as if they referred to a company promoter. I never remember seeing words of the kind in any Act of Parliament. The Government say that they desire co-ordination, but they do not desire to put it in the Bill, and, though they make speeches and explanations to that effect, they run away from any more precise words than those that are used. I hope we shall be able to provide something more definite in Clause 2. When we come to deal with the powers which are to be bestowed on the Minister we shall have to be very precise. I think this Clause requires some further consideration, and my hon. and gallant Friend was quite right in drawing the attention of the Committee to this point.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move to leave out the words "of organisation and development," and to insert instead thereof the words "organising and developing trade."
This and a succeeding Amendment are intended, if possible, to limit the at present unlimited scope of the activities of the proposed new Minister. As the Bill stands the new Minister has to consider and advise upon any problem which may arise after the War, with a view to promoting the work of organisation. It is rather difficult to discover where there is any limit to the activities of the new Minister under such a Clause. What is the work of organisation and development directed to? There is no limit of any kind to be found in the Bill. What he is to organise and develop is left to the right hon. Gentleman when he is appointed. There is nothing at all definite or precise, and nothing but these most general vague, ambiguous terms. We are asked to endow the Minister with powers which have really no limit whatever. We are asked to draw a blank cheque, and we ask the right hon. Gentleman to fill it up at whatever figure he chooses. The Solicitor-General on the Second Reading described this as a Bill which was very modest in its scope. I defy my hon. and learned Friend to find any Act which is so wide in its scope as this Bill is, and I defy his ingenuity to devise any Act which would be wider in its scope. It seems to me it is the duty of this House in framing Bills to use language which is precise and concise and which can be easily understood by anybody who reads the Act. Ambiguity in an Act of Parliament has the most mischievous consequences, and nowhere is it more necessary to have clear and precise language than in a Bill which constitutes a new officer of State. When we are setting up a new officer of State we should endow him with certain definite distinct and limited powers. We should not allow him of his own motion to embark upon any investigation that he may think fit. We ought to say definitely what the work of his Department is to be and how that work is to be conducted by the Department. The Home Secretary in his speech on the Second Reading, endeavoured not indeed to make a catalogue of the various subjects which this Minister would undertake but merely to give us some samples of what he would do, and the Solicitor-General endeavoured to enlarge upon the Home Secretary's list and gave us one or two more examples.
6.0 P.M.
Let the House consider a few of the matters which it was suggested by the Home Secretary and the Solicitor-General that this new Minister should do. He was to consider and advise upon matters of commercial and industrial policy, the development of national and Imperial resources, the maintenance of new industries, the supply of raw materials, the conservation of coal and an inventory of the mineral resources of the Empire. There is the question of the supply of oils and fats, agricultural policy, shipping policy, and large questions of that kind. He will be required to consider the demobilisation of the Army, and certain other matters, such as housing, education, the relation between employers and employed, the employment of women, and the food supply. These, said the right hon. Gentleman, were only a few of the activities which were to engage the attention of the new Minister of Reconstruction. And the Solicitor-General explained that the object of creating a Minister of Reconstruction to advise upon all these matters was to have a fresh mind brought to bear upon them. But what is the good of a fresh mind being brought to bear upon all these complicated questions if this fresh mind is an ignorant one? I am speaking with the greatest possible respect for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hoxton (Dr. Addison), but there is no living man who is competent to advise on all these matters and who can say that he is expert in all the subjects I have enumerated, let alone the other hundred and one subjects that will arise and which he will be required to advise upon—a hundred and one subjects upon which he knows nothing whatever! If we are going to have advice that will be of any use it is most important, whoever may be the adviser, that he should be one who is skilled in some of these subjects. Here you are going to introduce a man who, indeed, would have to be a superman to advise on one tithe of these questions. If the right hon. Gentleman were really to advise with profit upon all these various matters, he would be entitled, not only to a salary of £2,000 a year, but to a salary of £200,000 a year, and he would be cheap at the price! It seems to me that it is very impolitic that this House should grant in such vague, general, and undefined terms the powers which are created and given by this Bill to the Minister of Reconstruction. By my Amendment I want to limit those powers. In the first place I limit them—for you can expand them afterwards if you find that the advice the adviser gives within the limited scope of his activities is useful advice—I want to limit the powers in the first place to questions relating to trade, and particularly to the first important question which we shall have to consider—that is the question of the demobilisation of the Army. The demobilisation of the Army will be a very important matter in connection with the trade of this country. We shall have so many millions of men who will have to be reabsorbed into the trade of the country.
The hon. Member has, I think, an Amendment on that subject on Clause 2?
Yes.
Then the hon. Member can deal with that point later. He should for the moment confine himself to his present Amendment on the trade question.
I feel the difficulty, and I was just referring to the later subject for the purpose of showing simply that demobilisation is one of the subjects which relate to the trade of this country. It is only one of them. As soon as the War is over there will be a number of large questions affecting trade and the country sufficient to occupy the activities of any one man, or of any one Department. To say that, in addition to considering questions affecting trade, the Minister of Reconstruction should have to consider questions which have nothing to do with trade— questions, for instance, of education and the like—is to give him such wide scope for his work that really nothing useful whatever will be done. If, on the other hand, you limit the work, you have some degree of certainty that, that work being limited within certain defined areas, the Minister can apply his mind to these limited functions, and so some good work may result. As the matter stands at present, it is too vague, too general, too uncertain, and far too wide, and I therefore beg to move my Amendment.
We are still, of course, only on the Preamble of the Bill.
No!
The words with which we are dealing are words in regard to the object of the Bill—to promote the work of organisation. The hon. and gallant Gentleman found some difficulty in construing these words. No one knows better than he that in construing these words you have to have regard to what the Bill itself provides; therefore you must read these words in the light of the subsequent provisions. The duty of the Minister of Reconstruction will be to deal with the great problems which have arisen out of the War. He will have to deal with what has been thrown down by the War—with the wreck of many trades, not only of manufactures, with the diversion of labour from one trade to another, and the great suspension of industrial conditions. He must deal, so far as he can, with all these problems and bring them all into focus. It would be a great mistake to limit his powers from the beginning to dealing only with trade; it would shut him out from some of the most important functions that will fall to him. You really destroy his power in connection with demobilisation, because, after all, demobilisation is concerned partly no doubt with trade, but, as my hon. and gallant Friend also says, to a great extent with other matters than trade. You shut out the whole field of manufacture and the whole field of industry if you adopt this Amendment. If you allow the Minister of Reconstruction to deal with nothing but sale and purchase, and commercial matters of that kind, you prevent him from laying his hand to the enormous industrial problems which will arise the moment the War comes to an end. You will also take from him a great share of the influence which I think he ought to possess. The Amendment would ruin the Bill. The time and capacity of any man, however able, are, of course, limited, and the Minister must limit his operations to what is possible. But he will be the best judge after he has made his survey of the field as to what part of his duties must come first, as being most urgent. He may well find—I think he will find—that trade matters are not the most urgent and do not need the most immediate attention.
I think my hon. and gallant Friend the Mover of the Amendment has made a most admirable speech which condemns the whole Bill. With a great part of his speech I am in entire agreement. He put the case clearly, and showed the absurdity of expecting any human being to be capable of doing all that the Bill is going to give the Minister of Reconstruction the power to do. I regret exceedingly that after his speech I do not see my way to support him in the Lobby if he takes his Amendment to a Division, for I quite agree a limit to the Minister's work should be made. You cannot give him a practical Commission to interfere with trade. Such a Commission to organise and develop trade would be rather a mischievous Commission, which might open up very many controversial questions. The Home Secretary, in his reply, seemed to me to endorse much of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman said. Why is not every Minister a Minister of Reconstruction? How will this new Minister work? Will he be a kind of new Prime Minister? Will he be able to survey the British Empire generally, and to say that shipping or something else requires attention, and be able to give instructions for it to be done? Does not this show the absurdity of it?
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, after the word "development" ["organisation and development"], to insert the words "either before or."
I put this Amendment down because it seems to me that the words in the Clause, as they stand, limit unnecessarily, probably undesirably—and perhaps unintentionally—the work of the new Minister of Reconstruction. As I read the Clause, the actual work which is to be taken in hand as the result of the Minister's inquiries and schemes is to be work which will only be really begun after the War. I believe there are things that might be done now with a view to reconstruction— that there is a large part of reconstruction which ought to be taken in hand at once. We often hear it said that we were unprepared for this War. Let us not be unprepared for peace. This Ministry is an attempt to prepare for peace. But there are certain changes which might be introduced now, which ought to be introduced now, and which will be very beneficial. I only mention one which the Government has already undertaken. It is a very simple but a good step in the way of reconstruction. I mean the introduction of the Summer Time Bill. I suppose we all look upon that as an essential condition of the future organisation of our national life. That is reconstruction, because it means a difference in the whole social habits of the people, giving greater facilities for men who work long hours to have healthy exercise and out-of-door recreation. That is a bit of reconstruction which has actually been begun. I will take another instance which will show what I mean. Here we have at the present time the Government considering vast changes in the whole of the liquor traffic. So far as we know their intentions—they do not tell us very much about them—they appear to be contemplating the purchase of the liquor traffic, not the immediate purchase, but a much larger measure of control than they have at present, with a view to continuing the control after the War, and combining with it the purchase of the liquor traffic. That question suggests an amount of reconstruction work. The Home Secretary shakes his head, but I cannot agree with him. The whole of these things which have actually been undertaken now, and which, in some form or other, will be permanent, mean reconstruction work.
The Leader of the House said that that question would be dealt with by itself.
Very likely I might find myself, when we come to a Division on that point, voting with the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire (Mr. Henderson), and not the Home Secretary. But, after all, what I say is quite correct to this extent, that in connection with the liquor traffic, we are making changes now which will be part of the reconstruction. I do not suppose any of us will ever again see the long hours of opening of public-houses to twelve and even one o'clock. That is only an instance, but what I maintain is quite obvious, that there is a certain amount of reconstruction which will have to begin before the termination of the War, and which, in fact, is already beginning now. That is why I move this Amendment, and I hope the point of view which I seriously put forward will commend itself to the Home Secretary. If he cannot accept it now, perhaps he may consider whether it might not be introduced on the Report stage, if we have a Report stage, as I hope we shall.
I would point out to my hon. Friend that, of course, the Minister of Reconstruction will be at work during the War, but he has to direct his mind to post-war organisation and post-war development. I think that is quite enough for him to do, and it would be a pity to expect this Minister to deal with development during the War. That is, of course, quite another purpose. I should be very sorry to go as far as the hon. Gentleman does, and expect the Minister to deal with such a question as the liquor trade—a very thorny question, I do not think there is much objection to the words of the hon. Gentleman, but I am quite sure if I accepted them I should be told at once that the functions of this Minister are wide enough already, and you are making them wider, and giving him these powers not only with regard to post-war problems but with reference to war problems also. That would only provoke further criticism, and I hope, therefore, the hon. Member will not press the Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words "but no longer than two years after the termination of the present War."
What I want to do by this Amendment is to make a beginning in the laudable object of reducing the number of Minis- tries with which this country will be unfortunately saddled at the conclusion of this terrible War. This Government has made nine new Ministries already in its life of about eight months—a little over one a month—and if it lasts another twelve months, I suppose it will create another twelve Ministries. Whether they do so or not, we have got too many, and we shall have too many after the War. Therefore, I seriously think that we shall make a very good beginning by saying that this Ministry, at any rate, shall not go on for more than two years after the War. Of course, the concluding words of this Clause indicate that the Minister shall only hold office during His Majesty's pleasure, and that definitely means that the Government do not contemplate this Ministry lasting for ever. But what shall we find after the War? We shall find the same sort of tendency that we find now of having to make jobs for people, having to provide positions for politicians, having large offices and staffs and so on that may be continued, because it is easier to continue them, and because there are personal and other advantages in continuing them rather than being forced to close them down. I contend that to put an actual time limit of two years after this War for this Ministry is a very sensible request, and if it were left to the opinion of the Committee rather than the determination of the Home Secretary, I believe it would be carried. Of course, this is a good Bill, but let the right hon. Gentleman not be too anxious to carry this Bill through without a Division. If he is in that frame of mind, of course he has such a majority that he can afford to reject any Amendment, however sensible, but I hope he will accept this. I really think if it were put to the free judgment of the House everybody, or, at any rate, a very large majority, would say, "Let us have done with this Ministry of Reconstruction we are now setting up within two years of the termination of the War."
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am not going for a moment to struggle against any Amendment with a view to avoiding a Report stage. I am not saying that there is not a great deal to be said for this particular proposal. It is the intention of the Government that the appointment shall be a temporary one. Reconstruction is a definite process which must take place at the earliest possible moment when the War comes to an end, and we never contemplated that there should be a permanent appointment of this Minister and staff, nor do I think a period of two years is an unreasonable one. I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Charles Roberts) has a new Clause on the Paper in which he also proposes that the term should be two years, but he adds a power which, I think, is a reasonable one to take, to extend the term, if circumstances arise, by Order in Council, for some further period. I do not think that is unreasonable, because no one can tell what problems may be pending when the two years come to an end, but I think that, unless the Minister has in substance got through his work by two years after the War, he will not be able to claim that he has made his Department a success. As to the form of the Amendment, I would rather not take the words as proposed in the present Amendment. It seems to me it would be better to take either the Amendment of my hon. Friend opposite or an Amendment to the same effect.
I thank the Home Secretary for his favourable consideration of my form of arriving at what the hon. Member wants to do. I, of course, am not wedded to that particular form, but it does follow the form which was adopted in the previous new Ministries Act, from which I copied it, so that there is some precedent for it, and I think, if it is intended to make this Ministry temporary, it is much better to say so on the face of the Bill. In that case appointments are made with the knowledge that the Ministry is going to be temporary, and no misunderstandings arise. I think it would be a very desirable thing to have that set out in the Bill. Personally I hold the view, and am convinced by the Government, that a Ministry of Reconstruction is desirable, subject to certain conditions, and this certainly is one of the conditions, that on the face of the Bill it should be shown to be a temporary measure. Some of the other Ministries set up are explicitly and avowedly temporary, and I think this ought to follow the precedent of previous Ministries in that respect.
There is one difficulty in the way, though personally I should like to see the Amendment carried, The difficulty is this: The Minister of Reconstruction has only to consider and advise upon the problems which may arise after the termination of the present War. Problems which have arisen before the termination of the War will not come within his purview, so that he will have to wait until after the close of the War to know what problems he has to consider, and if he has to do that, he will not get under way for a long time. Either the words which limit his activities to the problems which may arise after the close of the War must come out or the criticisms I submit are well founded. In those circumstances, I venture to suggest to the Home Secretary that when he is considering what words he is going to introduce to carry out the intention of the Amendment, he should at the same time consider whether he should not amend the words to which I have referred.
I think I had better withdraw this Amendment, but, before I do so, may I ask whether the new Clause in the name of the hon. Member for Lincoln is in order? I know a case where an Amendment has been withdrawn in view of a subsequent Amendment which was found not to be in order. I suppose the new Clause is in order, but perhaps, Mr. Maclean, you will tell me before I withdraw?
It seems to me to be in order at present. I do not know what special point the hon. Member has in regard to it. Perhaps he will further inform me before I give a final decision on the point.
In those circumstances I respectfully withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 2.—(Powers and Duties of Minister of Reconstruction.)
(1) It shall be the duty of the Minister of Reconstruction to consider and advise upon the problems which may arise after the termination of the present War, and for the purposes aforesaid to institute the conduct such inquiries, prepare such schemes, and make such recommendations as he thinks fit; and the Minister of Reconstruction shall, for the purposes aforesaid, have such powers and duties of any Government Department or authority, whether conferred by Statute or otherwise, as His Majesty may by Order in Council authorise the Minister to exercise or perform concurrently with, or in consultation with, the Government Department or authority concerned.
(2) Any Order in Council made for the purpose of this Act may be added to, varied, or revoked by a subsequent Order in Council.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "and" ["to consider and advise upon the problems"], to insert the words "if called upon."
Of course the Committee will realise that this Amendment raises a point of some considerable importance. The Minister of Reconstruction, according to the wording of this Clause, is told to consider and advise upon the problems which may arise after the termination of the War. Wherever he likes to give advice he shall do so, and obviously that may lead to a great deal of friction. Take the present Minister designate of Reconstruction. I am not saying that he is not a. man of great tact and ability who would be likely to deal harmoniously with Departments and individuals when the necessity arose. Rut the Minister designate of Reconstruction may not be in that position always. Sometimes we have very quick changes in Ministries, and we might even get a Minister of Reconstruction of a forceful character, ambitious and restless, and he might set other Departments by the ears and create dissatisfaction amongst men and business firms. Surely to put in the words I propose would be safeguarding ourselves from a good deal of unnecessary interference and friction. Departments are very jealous of the members of other Departments in regard to their work. I remember very well when discussing the Minister of Pensions Bill there was a Clause which provided that the President of the Local Government Board, the Secretary for War, and the Secretary for the Admiralty were to give advice when they wanted to the Ministry of Pensions, and I well remember the then Minister-designate of Pensions (Mr. Arthur Henderson) did not like it, and he did not like the idea of all these other Ministers being able to advise him in his Department, and the Clause was modified or withdrawn. What is the case with the Minister of Pensions surely it will be the case with other Departments. The words of the Clause are "to consider and advise," but if the Minister puts a spoke in the wheel by his advice that wheel will be stopped altogether and the whole business will be stopped. I think we ought to safeguard ourselves by putting in the words which I suggest.
I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman must make some addition to his Amendment, because he must be called upon by somebody, and I suggest he should add the words "by the Department concerned."
I will accept that addition to my Amendment.
The effect of this Amendment would be that this Minister might consider a question of great importance and investigate it, and he might have some very excellent proposal to make; he may have fresh information, but he must not open his mouth unless and until the Minister of the Department concerned asks him to do so. That is the effect of this Amendment. He must not speak to the Minister unless the Minister speaks to him first. That seems to me to be crippling this Department. It means that whatever excellent work he may do, or whatever attention he may give to the work of his Department, it may be entirely frustrated by some other Department which has not given to the subject the special attention paid to it by the Minister of Reconstruction. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press his Amendment.
The hon. and gallant Member for Gloucester (Major Terrell) has another Amendment on this subject which is rather wider in its scope, and I am quite willing to withdraw my Amendment in favour of his proposal. I ask leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "problems," and to insert instead thereof the words "problem of Army demobilisation."
My right hon. and learned Friend said that Clause 1, if it came to be considered, would be construed with reference to Clause 2. I wish to ask the Home Secretary whether Clause 2, if it came to be construed, would not be construed with reference to Clause 1, and, if so, it becomes all the more important that in Clause 2 we shall place some limit on the immediate operations of the new Minister. My Amendment is that he should in the first place consider and advise upon the problem of Army demobilisation, and I follow immediately afterwards with another Amendment to insert the words "and such other problems as may from time to time be submitted to him in writing by any Government Department." I think that meets the objection which was taken by the Home Secretary to my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment, because my proposal extends not only to his advising upon such other matters, but also to his considering such other matters. My object is, first of all, to let this Ministry of Reconstruction consider and advise upon that which must be the most pressing question after the termination of the War, namely, Army demobilisation, and not let him wander about and seek for subjects upon which to consider and advise, but let him be in a position with his staff to consider and advise upon any problem which any Department of His Majesty's Government may desire him to consider and advise upon. My Amendment will allow him to do everything that can be reasonably expected of him. It will enable the Government Department concerned to get all the assistance which they can possibly desire. I have provided by another Amendment that questions which are to be submitted by a Government Department to the Minister of Reconstruction shall be placed upon the Table of the House, and that will enable hon. Members to see precisely the questions which this Minister of Reconstruction is considering, so that the House may know how far it is necessary for the Treasury to control the enormous expenditure which may be involved if unlimited powers are given to this Minister.
My hon. and learned Friend does not seem consistent in his arguments. Upon a former Amendment he was proposing to limit the Minister to the duty of organising and developing trade and he pointed out that demobilisation was not such a pressing war problem. Now he moves an Amendment which makes it the most pressing question of all to consider Army demobilisation. I think the hon. and learned Member has made rather a sharp curve in passing from his former Amendment to this. The arguments against this Amendment are the same as I used against the other. These words would limit unduly the function of the Minister of Reconstruction. I quite agree as to the urgency of the problem of Army demobilisation, but I think the problem of civil demobilisation is perhaps as urgent and important as the other, and I am not quite sure which would affect the greater number of men. The transfer of labour from war industries to other industries is one of the gravest possible problems. My hon. and learned Friend proposes to add words which will enable the Minister, if requested by another Department, to consider other questions. For reasons I have just given I think it unwise to attach such a condition. It might be that the very subject urgently requiring consideration and co-ordination was within the province of some Department which did not think it necessary to consider it, and the Minister would not be able to lift a finger in it or to bring together the problems of a number of Departments under one head in order to try to solve them as far as he could. Therefore, I hope the House will not accept this proposal to limit the Bill, but will adhere to the words in the Clause, because I am quite sure this Amendment would deprive us of some of the benefits we expect to accrue from this Bill.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "problems," to insert the words "other than the question of commercial, industrial, and agricultural policy."
I have listened to this Debate this afternoon with very great care, and it has very much strengthened my view that the Amendment which I have put upon the Paper is necessary. If we take the actual Bill there is simply no limit to the functions of this Minister. He can interfere in any problem which can be covered by that blessed word "reconstruction." Reconstruction means the whole policy of the British Empire from now to the next generation, and there is no limit you can place upon that term. Under the Bill you can really take into consideration any problem which may arise. As the Minister must take into consideration problems which may arise after the War he has to begin his consideration of executive acts long before the War terminates or else his Ministry will be of very little use. I am very sorry that the right hon. Gentle- man has not been able to gratify the request that I made last Friday that the Government should circulate a little memorandum showing what the functions of this Minister will really be, and I also greatly regret that he is unable to throw any light upon the expenditure that is involved in all these functions. When I come to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, he is not very clear what the Ministry is going to do even from his own point of view, but he has said one or two things and he has mentioned several subjects, any one of which is enough to take the whole time of the Minister.
I propose by this Amendment to take out of the hands of the Minister at any rate one great division of work which may very well be done by other means. In making this proposal, I should like to say that of course I have no personal animus against the right hon. Gentleman who is to be the Minister of Reconstruction. I have never gone on any personal ground in any criticisms that I have made of matters of this kind, and I should certainly entirely refrain from making such criticisms at the present time. Although any words that I may use must not be held to have a personal application, it is necessary to say that in this and other great Departments of State the Minister is the important man. There has grown up in the last twelve years or thereabouts a rather new and maleficient custom in Governments. They come to office and they stay in office, and apparently have no policy. They trust to the permanent officials to give them that policy. The old conception of British Government was that the Minister had his policy and that he gave his instructions to the permanent officials to work out that policy. It is eminently desirable, in fact it is necessary if you are to get on with this problem of reconstruction, that the Minister should know where he is, what he is aiming at, and what he really wants, and that he should not trust the permanent officials to give him his policy. I am frequently asked what in my opinion is our present state of preparedness for after-the-war problems, and my reply is always, "Well, it depends upon the Minister." I may take, as an example, the Board of Trade. I know that there is plenty of material in the Board of Trade for immediate executive Acts if you like, but will the Minister take them, and does he know how to take them? You cannot ask the permanent offi- cials whether he should take those steps. That is not the business of the permanent officials. It is the business of the Minister. I give that as one illustration. Let me take another illustration of the importance of the Minister appointed to a post like this. Some time ago there was a proposition made in this House that we should have a number of import duties imposed. The reply of the Government was, "Oh, but you cannot do it, because you have not got the staff. You cannot manage it." I do not share that view, nor do I believe for a moment that the Departments themselves would share it. I believe, if the Minister made up his mind on that or on any other important point, and he said, "We want such and such a thing done by a given time" that our very clever permanent officials would do it.
There is a great deal too much memorandum writing at the present time, and we are in great danger of sharing the fate of the Spanish Empire which was undermined by expert memoranda writing on every possible occasion. The Minister does nothing. If you have got a Minister with a policy and with the will and the knowledge how to deal with the material available, I venture to say that you have material already in the different Departments for going forward with a large number of the problems of reconstruction, and certainly with regard to these industrial, commercial, and agricultural policies. I use the words "industrial and commercial policy," because the Solicitor-General specifically used that phrase when he was trying to define what would be the functions of the new Ministry. We happen to know a little definitely what the Government mean by "industrial and commercial policy," because at the present time we have actually a Committee sitting on industrial and commercial policy with definite terms of reference. We therefore know what in the estimation of the Government constitutes industrial and commercial policy. I mean the terms of reference to the Committee presided over by Lord Balfour of Burleigh. I put in these words, because I think it is entirely improper that this Minister should have anything to do with that Department. I will explain why. It is only fair the Government should know that there are a large number of business men— indeed, most business men—who regard with the greatest apprehension the setting up of an ill-defined Ministry which is going to interfere in trade matters. Most of the traders of the country would say that they have already had far too much interference, and they certainly regard with great apprehension the idea that you should have, with very ill-defined powers, a Minister who is going to interfere with policy in matters of this very important kind.
I come to another important consideration. Supposing you take up questions of industrial and commercial policy, what does it involve? In the discussion on the Financial Resolution some people talked mildly of a salary of £2,000 for the Minister and such other sums as may be necessary for his salary and clerks, as though you were starting a small secondary school or something of that kind. When you come to questions of working out and carrying out an industrial and commercial policy, does the Government realise that the postage bill alone is going to run to many thousands of pounds? You have in this country certainly not less than 100,000 firms with whom you will have to deal. You will have to carry on all kinds of negotiations and investigate all kinds of problems. Supposing you are considering questions of industrial and commercial policy, you bring in the Board of Trade, the Colonial Office, the India Office, and some other Departments. In every one of those Departments you have this situation at the present time. The Minister talks about considering problems that will arise after the War. When is there going to be that after-the-War period? It is a mere phrase. If we take such documents as the Paris Economic Resolutions they talk of three periods. They talk of during the War, what they call the transitional period, and after the War. The transitional period varies. I believe some people in the Paris Conference talked of five years. That is more precise than the Government are in connection with this Bill, but that is not accurate. The work that has to be done has to be begun now. As a matter of fact, it is being done now by the specific acts of the Government with regard to different subjects. It is being done by the different Departments. They are actually carrying out this or that measure and are making arrangements all the time. That is a continual process which will go on from now for a very long period. The Government say that the Minister of Reconstruction cannot get an expert staff on this subject. Therefore, he is not going to have an expert staff. If you create your Minister of Reconstruction without a staff he has got to sit down, I presume in an office, and think. Really, it is one of the most remarkable propositions that has ever been made in this House that we should appoint a Minister to think. Is it necessary? Are we to understand that other Ministers do not think?
He is to think for all the rest.
7.0 P. M.
He has to co-ordinate. He is to be a great synthetic philosopher. He has to co-ordinate all ideas that occur vaguely to other Ministers, such as the President of the Board of Trade. They do not think properly. They have just vague suggestions floating in their mind from time to time, and the new Minister is to put all these ideas into order, and make a great philosophy of trade and political science. It is a grand conception. I do not think it has been attempted on the scale which is now required since the days of St. Thomas Aquinas, and you want a philosopher of his greatness to do that process of co-ordination with the perfection that it really requires. In carrying out that work the right hon. Gentleman has got no material. I may mention, as one specific subject, the arrangements that are being made from time to time with our Allies in connection with questions of industrial and commercial policy, but there are hundreds of other subjects. He has not got the documents or the records of the acts that have been taken. Is he to go round to the different Departments and ask for them when he does not know what to ask for? Is he to sit down and think out for himself a beautiful scheme of policy affecting our international relations? I do not know what the Foreign Office would say about it, but my impression is that they would give him short shrift. He would meet with a great deal of criticism. I take the Board of Trade. They have a lot of information there. They have got Committee after Committee. How is he to know what takes place? We have had Committees sitting now for several months, and, though we try to find out what they are doing, we do not know. There are other bodies which have any amount of information upon these subjects. How is this Minister to do this work of coordination? I would like to see him try and co-ordinate the relations within the textile industries of this country and the countries of the Allies. I should like to see him deal with the engineering problem and undertake the work of the co-ordination—when he is sitting down to consider one of the subjects mentioned by my right hon. and learned Friend—of all those magnificent factories which have been put up everywhere. I have one down at Hereford, which is a very great inconvenience to me. When the Minister is considering that problem, can he, without the paraphernalia which only expert trading associations, or departments have say what is the good of the machinery that is left in these great factories, or how he proposes to meet the competition of the United States after the War with extinct machinery? All these things require enormous care and knowledge. There was one remark in the speeches of my right hon. and learned Friend in which I thoroughly agree with him from my heart —that is, that any one of the subjects he mentioned is more than enough for any one Minister.
I did not make that observation.
I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon, that was my impression. Do I understand him to say that this Minister can deal with more than one of these subjects, and, if so, which out of the catalogue? If he is going to specialise and has got to make a selection, which item is he going to select? Which of all these numerous things is he going to take? Is he going to take the Department of oils and fats? Is he going to enter the province of my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Mr. Wilson-Fox) and deal with the development of the resources of the Empire, or is he going to take the great engineering factories? Our difficulty in dealing with this Bill at all is that we do not know. The Government will not tell us. If it were a purely academic question it would be very interesting to discuss, but, unfortunately, these questions are of the most vital importance to the country. We talk airily about the problems that may arise after the termination of the War, but let me assure the Government that manufacturers, shipowners, and all kinds of business men engaged in economic affairs want to know now. If I were entitled to mention the names of firms, I could give the names of numerous great firms whose after-the-war efforts are held up because they do not know where the Government stands upon them. It is no use supposing for a moment that you can hand over these great Departments of industry to a Minister of Reconstruction, who is to reconsider them from the point of view of after-the-War and that then we may start. He has got to do it at once. It follows from the mere fact that the new Minister is under all these other Ministers I have mentioned —I do not speak of the right hon. Gentlemen who at present occupy these different posts, I am speaking of the posts impersonally—that the new Minister cannot do what he likes. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, the President of the Board of Trade and the President of the Board of Agriculture would not allow it. They could not have their Departments thrown into confusion by a Minister of that sort. It could not be done and it would be very improper to do it, therefore it will not be done.
If we take these intrinsic difficulties of the subject, we are entitled to press for some definition from the Government of what they intend this Minister to do. The difficulties I have put forward about the groups of questions mentioned in my Amendment will demand an answer from the Government. I showed my Amendment the other day to an eminent French friend of mine, who had not followed these proceedings, and when he saw the words "industrial, commercial and agricultural policy," he said, "Good Heavens, what is left?" To his mind the idea of appointing a single Minister to supervise all these problems was absurd. In France they have a most elaborate organisation of the Government to sort them out and group them, but we propose to concentrate them in the hands of one person. The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled to ask me, "What do you suggest?" I do not think it is a fair question. If the Government bring in a Bill, at any rate, in normal times, we have performed our functions when we have said "This is a bad Bill." I do not think we are absolutely bound, when we have not access to all the sources of information which the Government has, to come forward with half-sheets of note-paper containing alternative schemes. But take the illustration I gave of commercial policy and the half-dozen Departments concerned in working that out. I should say the solution is obvious. For that particular problem the ideal solution would be a Committee of Ministers, who are the heads of the great Departments and who can control the services of those Departments. That Committee, properly organised and run, let us hope, with a competent secretary, who would be a very important person no doubt, could come to conclusions, could prevent their own overlapping in the way they manage their work, and the different problems could be distributed among the expert Departments for whatever other work was necessary. You could apply that method to every group of problems. It is not an impossible task to take the particular features of reconstruction, give a definition to them—if the right hon. Gentleman likes by a catalogue of such subjects as he has mentioned, and gradually come to a conclusion as to the groups of Ministers required to cover the ground. If my memory serves me rightly, one of the main objects of the reconstitution of the Government by which the present Government came into power was actually to carry out some such scheme as that, that you should have the Ministries grouped, and then have the Prime Minister's Department, which would keep them more or less together. That scheme has never been carried out as originally conceived, and we have had a certain amount of confusion. I have no doubt that it could be carried out.
I presume that if I put forward that scheme it will be said at once that Cabinet Ministers are far too busy with actual War problems to devote any time to the consideration of problems in a Committee of that kind. I am not sure about that. We ought to be perfectly clear in this House that both the problems of the War and the problems that flow out of the War are going to put an enormous strain upon Ministers, and that if they cannot stand the strain they ought not to be Ministers. It sounds rather a harsh thing to say, but you are dealing with the reconstruction of the world after such a great upheaval as we have seen, and you cannot do that by any amateur methods. If necessary, men have to sacrifice their lives in the work of organising the country and the Empire and our Allies after the War. It is not really necessary that Ministers should all give their individual attention. There must be somebody who can be the alter ego of the Minister in regard to that particular group of problems. It is the application of the principle of Under-Secretaries, although I am not suggesting that they should be paid. I am suggesting that a Cabinet Minister, if he cannot devote his time to attending these Committees, should definitely delegate these particular functions to someone who can speak for him and be in constant touch with him. I do not believe in the method of Interdepartmental Committees. That is using the Civil Service in the wrong way. The Civil Service exists not to initiate policies, but to help you to carry them out. The initiation, the will power, the "go" in all these things, must come from the Minister and not from anybody else. I believe that method can be carried out on one condition, which is the governing condition of the whole organisation of the work of Government, namely, that the Government must have a definite policy. That is absolutely essential. I am not asking for the moment what that policy should be. It must be a policy to which they are all committed, to which they loyally adhere and which they do everything in their power to carry out.
All the ninety-one?
I do not see why you should not get ninety-one people more or less unanimous. We have had many times that number of people unanimous on different policies. I do not believe that at the present time there is that difference of view about the policy we ought to pursue as some people try to represent to be the case. I believe that in regard to most of the objects we have in view the country is substantially agreed. But we do not really require to go into speculative questions of that kind. We have the. policy of this Empire and the policy of our Allies incorporated in documents to which they have agreed. I am not arguing the merits. There may be something in those documents we do not like and something that they do not like. I say that, seeing at the present time you have a series of Resolutions and other agreements between this country and the Allies to which all agree unanimously, you have again the Resolution of the Imperial War Conference, which was unanimous so far as the British Empire was concerned—so long as these documents hold the field, they are not detailed, it is true, but they are sufficiently detailed and precise to make it clear that we have a definite policy. The anxiety of the country on these matters cannot be exaggerated. You cannot see it in the House quite so much. There is a good deal of anxiety in the House, but this House is rather out of touch with public opinion, in some quarters at any rate, and it is not at the present time that reflex of public opinion it ought to be. Wherever you go into the country and meet people in order to find out what they think, you find some anxiety as to what the course is going to be. Unless my right hon. Friend takes the group of subjects I have specified in this Amendment out of this Bill and adopts some such method of dealing with them as I have indicated, which will lead to the rapidity of action which the country demands, there is going to be trouble. It is not a question of the old controversies which are, in my opinion, dead or working upon an entirely different plane from anything before the War. Supposing it is a question of the old controversies, I say, in Heaven's name, make up your minds! If you want to be a Free Trade country, tell us so, and then we can make arrangements accordingly. If you want to adopt the other policy, tell us so, but do not leave this Committee, do not leave our Allies, do not leave the Departments, and do not leave every Committee which is appointed in a state of uncertainty as to the direction in which you intend to move at this most critical time.
No one wants the Government to commit itself on matters of detail, but everyone wants to know whether you do or do not accept certain broad principles of action. If you do not accept those broad principles of action you cannot reconstruct. My hon. and learned Friend brought forward the question of demobilisation, and pointed out how largely that is a question of trade. I should think it is. How on earth can you get on with the problem of demobilisation, where you have to negotiate with all the great firms of the country, unless you can tell them what their position is going to be? I do not think it matters at which end you take up all these problems, you will find all the time that you are hampered and hindered unless you know the main line on which you wish the policy of the country to run. Therefore, I sum up in this way: I think you must, if you want to get on at all, make up your minds as a Government what your policy is broadly. You must define the functions of your new Minister. Define them, if you like, by subtraction, by saying, "We shall not do this," "We shall not do that," until you have got it down to what he really can do, because if you do not let him do what he can do and do not confer power properly on him in the Bill to do what he can do, he will probably do nothing at all which is effective. Let us get a clear understanding. Then, for those problems which are thought to be improper or undesirable for this new Ministry, let us adopt a machinery for dealing with them—I do not want to speak dogmatically, but I make my suggestion somewhat on that line—then I think we can get on. But really to appoint a Minister for doing things in general, with no definite powers and not even knowing how much money he is going to have, is trifling with a great problem. Let me remind the House how much we have lost already by trifling with this question. One of the most amazing experiences is to find methods which were practised in the Middle Ages and abandoned brought up as the highest science of the modern world. We have had that over and over again, and unless we can get the concrete and definite tackling of these problems which I have advocated I do not think we shall get on. I earnestly suggest that the Government should accept my Amendment and adopt some method such as I have indicated of dealing with the problem.
There is so much in the speech which my hon. Friend has just delivered with which I am in entire sympathy that I feel bound to say that the differences between us are merely questions of degree. I supported the Second Reading of the Bill not because I thought it was a good Bill, or that the machinery which it contained for dealing with these great problems was the best that could be devised, but because I thought some machinery was better than none, and I was afraid, if nothing was done, these matters, which must be dealt with, would be allowed to drift, drift, and drift until we drifted into a position of very great danger. I said on the Second Reading that the criticisms which are being directed against the Government on this Bill—and to a very large extent, in my view, justly —they have brought upon their own heads, the reason being that they have not faced this question. They have not told the House exactly how we stand, nor explained the reasons which have made this Bill necessary. I think my hon. Friend (Mr. Hewins) has put his finger on the spot. He has analysed what is required, and that is precisely what the Government has not done. In the Debate on the Second Reading my hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Colonel Sir C. Seely) also reviewed the machinery which he con- sidered the Government should employ in these matters, and he expressed regret that the old method of government had been departed from. He said the British Empire was much better governed when there were fewer Ministers and when they were kept together as one team by the guiding hand of the Prime Minister, and he traced many of the difficulties in our recent Government to the fact that the old arrangement had been departed from. I should gather from the speech of my hon. Friend (Mr. Hewins) that that is precisely what he, too, is lamenting. There would have been no reason for this Bill at all if the work of the various Government Departments had been co-ordinated by the Prime Minister, and that it was necessary that that work should be done by the Prime Minister was recognised by the late Prime Minister when he set up the Cabinet Committee on Reconstruction, because in a sense it was an attempt to make a Prime Minister's Department, which was going to deal with and coordinate all these great questions. It is idle to say that if you want a man to do these things he must be a super-man. I am sorry to say that we have now arrived at such a pitch of complexity in our organisation and social arrangements that you must have someone at the top who has the energy and the brain power and is able to grapple himself with all these big questions. If you do not have someone at the top who can do these things you arrive at the condition which my hon. Friend has just described, when you do not get questions of policy settled, and unless you have questions of policy settled it is impossible to expect the Civil Service to carry out your work for you. Otherwise different Departments will be settling the same questions of policy in different ways. You will get friction, and you will get your team pulling all over the place, with the result that nothing effective is done. Therefore we come back to this, that someone has to co-ordinate the whole of this work and decide upon policy. That, in my view, can only be the Prime Minister. I should read into this scheme the idea that it is intended that the Minister of Reconstruction should not take decisions himself, but should put the information which it is necessary to have before the Government, and so enable the Prime Minister in the end to deal with it on the advice of the Minister of Reconstruction.
So far I have been unable to relate the hon. Member's remarks to the Amendment. His arguments have been Second Reading arguments. The Amendment before the Committee is to limit the powers of the Minister of Reconstruction to subjects other than those of commercial, industrial, and agricultural policy.
I was coming to that in a minute. My view is that it is no use lamenting over the wideness of this question, and that it must be dealt with as a whole, and therefore I do not think it is possible to follow the course which my hon. Friend has suggested of excluding these subjects from the purview of the man at the top. That is why I resist this Amendment, because I think you cannot deal with these things in watertight compartments. Someone has to review the whole ground. I understand from the speech of the Home Secretary, in moving this Bill, that it is intended that the Minister for Reconstruction shall, as far as possible, be limited to giving advice and to making such investigations as will enable him to make up his own mind in order to give that advice. I did not understand that it is intended that he should be to any large extent an executive officer. If that is the case, if the Prime Minister, assisted perhaps by a Department, was doing that work, there would be no necessity whatsoever for this new appointment of a Minister to advise. I take it that that is really what is intended, although the Government did not explain it, and I still think that the Government would have done better in introducing the Bill to explain precisely what point they have reached in these investigations on the questions of commercial and industrial policy, which we all know have been investigated very widely, and to explain why they could not carry it further with the machinery then at their disposal. If that had been done the House would have been in a better position to judge where they stood and why this new machinery is necessary. But I think in the absence of any machinery at all, or of a breakdown in the old machinery, something new should be done. I do not think it is possible to withdraw a part of the field from the purview of the Minister who is to go into these matters. Therefore, although I fully sympathise with the request made by the hon. Member, I cannot support him in his desire that the field should be cut up and divided among a number of independent Ministers. I think it must all be kept under the control of one guiding brain. For that reason I am not prepared to support this Amendment.
I am enthusiastic in my support of the Amendment. The hon. Member (Mr. Hewins) was most frank in stating that he did not raise this question as a matter of political controversy. He eliminated that. He discussed the question purely as a matter of machinery, and to my mind he made one of the most convincing speeches I have ever heard him deliver. The hon. Member (Mr. Wilson-Fox) seemed really to agree with him. He was endeavouring very properly, as he voted for the Second Reading, to make his speech consistent with that support, but I think in his heart of hearts he did not agree altogether with the Bill as it was originally introduced, and perhaps even yet we may get him to come into the Lobby in support of the Amendment. The hon. Member (Mr. Hewins) explained to the Committee what has already been confirmed by many speeches —the absurdity of expecting from the Minister of Reconstruction the physical capacity to give a judgment on problems connected with all the various Departments of State. He pointed out the absurdity of the Ministry going to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, to the President of the Board of Trade, and also to the Treasury. We have had speeches already showing the absurdity of this position, and the hon. Member, with the admirable motive of trying to get something out of the Bill, proposes to limit the mischief, and to exclude problems of commercial, industrial, and agricultural policy. He quoted aptly from an eminent authority, to whom he showed his Amendment, who said he wondered what was left, and I agree there was a good deal in that. But those of us who think the Bill is an absurdity certainly, I hope, welcome the Amendment. He does not in any way commit us to going back on any principles we hold in regard to the fiscal policy. He said it was all a question of machinery and that it did not matter what principles the Government hold. I agree with him, and I support him. He made a most valuable suggestion to the Government as an alternative to this Bill, and it was that the Government from within this very fine phalanx of ninety should form a Com- mittee of Reconstruction without involving us in further expense, and that the interests of economy might be served by forming out of the Ministries and Departments that already exist a Committee of Reconstruction which would recommend to the Government whether it would be feasible by co-operation to reconstruct this or that Department. Is it to be expected that some super-man can come forward now on the creation of this new Ministry, at this eleventh hour, and know all the vast complexities of the questions affecting the British Empire? Surely there can be nobody in this House who will not support the hon. Member. There may be some who in an automatic way are in the habit of going into the Lobby to support this or any Ministry. Personally I heartily commend the Amendment and the feasible ideas which are expressed by the hon. Member who moved it.
I express my hearty agreement with the hon. Member who has just sat down and with my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment. We are in this difficulty. If the Government are not going to exclude from the purview of this Ministry commercial, industrial, and agricultural policy, they ought to tell us what those Departments of Government who now take charge of these great branches of work think of the Bill. Are they satisfied that the work in which they are constantly engaged should be placed upon the shoulders of a new man to deal with as he pleases? Look at the commercial policy. I am glad that the President of the Board of Trade is here. He is a man of admirable candour. I wonder if he could tell us what he thinks of this new Ministry which is to deal with questions of commerce and the other duties which were elaborated on the Second Reading. Nearly every branch of work that is dealt with by the Board of Trade was spoken of as something that the Ministry of Reconstruction would have to touch. Look how we are fixed in regard to industrial problems. We have a Labour Minister, which is a newly-created office, and we have a Pensions Minister, and we have the Home Secretary dealing largely with industrial problems. With these great branches of the Ministry dealing with these subjects, we are going to set up this new roving Ministry to deal with all their problems. It is almost too ludicrous when you come to the question of agriculture. The Minister for Agriculture has been dealing with nothing but problems of reconstruction. That is not a newly-created office, but it is certainly a very active Ministry at the present time, and it is dealing with these subjects of reconstruction. A great deal of confusion will be caused to the State with all these problems which are being handled by these Ministers if—
Whereupon, the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod having come with a Message for the House to attend the Lords Commissioners, the Chairman left the Chair.
resumed the Chair.
Royal Assent
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went, and having returned,
reported the Royal Assent to—
New Ministries Bill
Again considered in Committee.
Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
( resuming ): Just before the proceedings were interrupted I was calling attention to the various Departments in the State that are dealing with the three subject mentioned in the Amendment, and was asking whether those three Departments were in favour of, and indeed agreeable to, the handing over of their duties to the new Minister. I cannot help mentioning one other matter which is so directly connected with reconstruction, and to which our attention was called to-day and yesterday at Question Time. We know that a large amount of housing will be necessary immediately the War is over, and we have had the whole thing announced to us at Question Time, that that part of the industrial problem was already being solved, that the various local authorities were being approached upon it, and that vast sums were being provided for the purpose. I do not know how the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill can, consistently with the policy he has laid down, accept the Amendment, but if he does not do so it seems to me that he will plunge all the Departments of the State into the greatest confusion. He will probably ask, "If I accept the Amendment and leave out commerce, industry, and agriculture, what remains?" Nothing remains, or precious little remains. I think the Bill has been brought in too hastily, and that the eloquent account we have had of it from the right hon. Gentleman on the Second Reading was scarcely fully enough considered. I think the Committee might well remember the extraordinary support the Bill has had up to the present time. I believe this is the first real honest Amendment we have had up to the present—
Hear, hear!
I think the right hon. Gentleman agrees with me—because it goes to the root of the matter. It strikes away nearly everything that the right hon. Gentleman proposed as reasons for bringing in the Bill. When you look at the sort of support the Bill has had, was it not reasonable to expect that some such Amendment as this would be proposed at some stage? On the Second Reading there was a most eloquent speech, dealing with a good many of the points raised in the Amendment, made by an ex-Minister, and yet he did not oppose the measure, but walked out of the House. Nearly everyone who applauded that speech voted for this Bill, and it is by such extraordinary support that this measure has been carried so far. I do hope that the hon. Member for Hereford will stick to this Amendment. It raises the whole question of whether the entire Government of the country is to be plunged into confusion for the sake of creating this Ministry, which is not wanted, and I think everyone ought to support the Amendment.
I do not in the least complain of this Amendment being moved, still less have I any fault to find with the manner in which it was moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins), and I want to join with the observations that have been made regarding that speech. When that is said, however, I ask the Committee to look for a moment to what it is that is proposed. It is that you shall exclude from the consideration of the Minister of Reconstruction all questions of commercial, industrial, or agricultural policy, even though they bear on reconstruction, and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lough) that if we accepted the Amendment we should to a great extent destroy the whole effect of the Bill. I think the argument in support of the Amendment was based, in the main, upon a complete, although no doubt momentary, misapprehension as to what the meaning of the Bill is. One would have thought in listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford that this Minister was to take charge of all these questions, including questions of commercial and industrial policy, was to come to a decision upon them, that his decision was to be that which was to bind the Government, and that no one but the Minister in charge of reconstruction was to take decisions on these points of vital importance. As I conceive it, the scheme of the Bill is wholly different from that. The decisions must be taken by the Government, and the Government must have the responsibility in these great matters. That responsibility must be taken by the Government and by no one else, and, so far, I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I cannot conceive any Government of this country which could postpone indefinitely taking a line upon these questions. The policy in the Bill is that there shall be a State Department whose function it shall be to get together the information, to collect the advice, and to have ready for whatever Government may be in power when the point comes to be decided all the material upon which a decision may be made. I cannot conceive that the provision of such a Department, whose use is obvious to all of us, is inconsistent with the broad principle my hon. Friend laid down, that the decision on these points must be the decision of the Government itself. My hon. Friend seemed to think there was some reproach in setting up what he called a Minister whose duty it would be to think. Surely we have been told time and again that it is exactly a thinking Department that we need to have for the War and for post-war purposes. If we had only had a really thinking Department to prepare for possible War, I think our position would have been very different in August, 1914
The Government—
8.0 P.M.
I quite agree, but it. remains true that if we had had a Department of Government, a separate Department, charged with the duty of thinking out the problem of preparation for a possible European War, we should have had some assistance towards that preparation which we all agree was very much wanted at the time the War broke; out. If you were to have a war book, ready to come into use on war breaking out, why should you not have a post-war book, a peace book, ready and prepared, so that at the moment when peace is declared it shall be in the power of the Government of the day to take the steps necessary, in order to bridge the chasm between peace and war, and prevent those disasters which, unless you think the matter out, must necessarily fall on us at the conclusion of the War. My hon. Friend was also guilty of another fallacy, in that he did not sufficiently appreciate that the duties of the Ministry would be limited to dealing with these great matters, so far as they bear on the problems of reconstruction. I think we must all agree that the War is bringing new problems upon us which have to be solved, problems which must be viewed in a new light; in the light of new facts. caused by the War, and there is a whole series of problems to be solved which are created by the very existence of the War. I do not think anybody who has thought about the matter doubts that, unless we consider these problems in time, a really grave disaster may be impending on this country. If so, the only issue between us is this: Should this work be done by a Cabinet, or Ministers, as a whole, or by Ministers working independently in their own Departments, or cannot some assistance be derived from setting up this special Department, whose duty it will be to think out these particular problems, and assist the other Departments in arriving at their conclusions. The Minister of Reconstruction is not to decide these matters. He has to get his facts together, prepare his schemes, and submit his recommendations. Then will be the time for action to be taken, either executive action by the particular Departments, or legislative action by this House. The hon. Member puts forward an alternative suggestion. He says the proper way is to have a Committee of Ministers.
Committees of Ministers. May I interrupt the right hon. Gentleman to point out that this was understood to be the plan, and it has not been done?
I do not know what is the basis for that statement. I do not think there was any such understanding. What is it the hon. Member proposes? There are Ministers, many of them engaged upon the War—and these are Ministers who could not be overlooked in such a matter— and you are going to give these Ministers the further duty of considering, in wartime, these post-war problems. My hon. Friend also suggested that if these Ministers are too much occupied in war problems their Under-Secretaries might join this Committee.
Again I must interrupt the right hon. Gentleman. I did not say anything of the kind. I said that in the application of the principle of Under-Secretaries it was quite possible for a Cabinet Minister to have an alter ego who could present these questions; an entirely different proposition from Under-Secretaries, as understood.
I thought when my hon. Friend referred to the principle of Undersecretaries that he thought Under-Secretaries themselves would attend the Committee. I gather now that Ministers should be able to nominate some other persons to act or consult for them from time to time upon these matters. This is recommended to us as conducive to rapidity of action. I cannot conceive anything more calculated to cause delay in coming to a decision on these questions which require rapid decision. Surely we have had experience of these Committees. I do not want to say a word against them, but I am convinced that, if you want decision and action, you will find it far better to have a standing Department at work upon these problems from day to day, ruled by a Minister whose duty it would be to deal with these things.
May I point out to my right hon. Friend that he said this Minister would not take decisions?
When I say decisions I mean come to a decision as to what is the policy to be recommended. I agree that this Committee would not take decisions or take action; it would make recommendations. That is exactly what this Minister will do, and if the Minister is able to consult with the heads of other Departments, he will be better likely to arrive at decisions to be recommended to his colleagues than a number of Committees such as are recommended to us. We have got down to rather a small matter—a question of the frame of the organisation which is to do this work. Are we to have a number of Committees—
May I interrupt my right hon. Friend again, and point out that in proposing this Bill the other day he emphasised the point that the Minister of Reconstruction would appoint Committees?
He very likely will appoint Committees to advise him, but the decision as to the policy to be recommended to the Cabinet will be for the Minister of Reconstruction. I hold my own opinion strongly that if you want a policy to be adopted and recommended to the country, it is better to have a Minister dealing with these problems, who will come to a decision after reviewing the whole field. If the Minister has any sense, and the Minister designated has sense, he will use the right people to give advice and will invite the assistance of the Departments specially concerned. He will obtain from them the information they already have, consult with them from time to time, and get the assistance of some of the most skilled members of their staff; he will seek to meet the needs they already feel, and supplement the information they already have. In that way only can he render effective assistance to them in the work they undertake. He will take hold of all the threads of the work. There are many subjects of reconstruction which affect, not one Department alone, but two, three, or four Departments. You will find many affecting the Board of Trade, the Home Office, and perhaps possibly other Departments, and not one can solve the problem alone. That is just the kind of problem which this Minister will deal with, and, with the assistance of all, he will do his best to arrive at a right solution. My hon. Friend spoke without much appreciation of Departmental Committees.
I must interrupt my right hon. Friend again. I did not speak one word in depreciation of Departmental Committees. What I said was that they are not suitable, from the point of view of organisation, for what is wanted to be done now.
I am not sure of the exact words which my hon. Friend used, but that is my impression of the way he spoke of Departmental Committees. I think his argument was wholly beside the point because nobody would use these Committees for the purpose of settling great questions of policy, but when going into matters of detail they are of the greatest possible assistance, and for this purpose I cannot conceive a more useful body than a body consisting of persons who have long experience of the questions involved, and who, putting their heads together, are likely to arrive at a solution which will be of benefit all round. May I add just this one word? I agree that the Government must decide these things; I agree that the Minister must act upon the decisions of the Government as a whole. He will know, and he will be informed of, the decisions already taken by the Cabinet. The Bill will not interfere in any way with the doctrine of the ultimate responsibility of the Government in this country, but it will provide the Government with an instrument which will, I hope, assist them in arriving at their decision. After all, this is a serious work—a very serious work. You may theories as you please, but those men who are in earnest know there is grave work to be done after the War. I do not want to exaggerate in the least, but you have to consider that throughout this country there has been an absolute reversal of pre-war conditions. You cannot consider the conditions created by the War in the field of labour, industry, and commerce, and in nearly every branch of our life, without seeing at once that there is real peril ahead, and I hope the House will hesitate long before they refuse to the Government the instrument which they desire to have, in order to assist them and future Governments in the solution of these grave problems. I am not sorry that the matter has been raised, but I tell the hon. Member that if the Amendment were carried it would not only affect the value of this Bill, but would interpose a great obstacle to the work of the Government.
My right hon. Friend has, I think, properly emphasised the perilous position in which this country will be when the War is over unless we, as a people and as a House of Commons, determine now upon taking a practical and proper step that is going to lead us to the conclusions and to a policy which will result in doing the very utmost possible for the preservation of all that we in this country hold most dear. He said that if we did not think in time there is disaster in front of us. No member of the Committee will take issue with him on that statement. Next in importance to the proper administration and conclusion of the War is the policy that is adopted with regard especially to industry, overseas commerce, and labour, which is so closely related to it. If we take a false step in those directions, what is the good of winning the War or what is the good of continuing the War? My right hon. Friend hinted quite plainly, and quite properly, that, if the Amendment is carried, it means the wrecking of the Bill. Of course, one does not quite know what effect it would have upon the administration of the War. For my part, I want to wreck this Bill, if I can do so without doing real harm to the prestige of the Government, because, whatever we may think of the present Government, there are few of us who do not admit that we cannot see a better one in its place. Therefore, those of us who do feel very strongly indeed that the Government are making a serious false step in this Bill, are placed in a very difficult position, because the refusal of this Amendment to my mind is going to be very perilous to the future interests of Great Britain and of the Empire. If we are going to continue as representatives of the people and as Members of this House to bow down on every occasion to what the Government insists, feeling convinced beyond all question that it is bad, dangerous, and disastrous to this country, then for my part I am going to vote against it, and I consider that this is the lesser of two evils.
My right hon. Friend says, and I am sure that he holds the view, that those of us who are opposed to this part of the Bill are labouring under a misunderstanding, and he has, fortunately, made it clearer today than it was made before what is the object of the Government in pressing not only the Bill, but in insisting on carrying this portion which we want to strike out. It is to create a new Ministry, a new Department with all that is carried with it, with all the expensive staff, buildings, and hotels that will be required, in order to collect information and materials for the Government some day to form a policy upon. You do not want a Minister for that. No Minister to my knowledge has ever been appointed in any British Government for the sole purpose of acting as Secretary to a Government or a Government Department, It is monstrous, to my mind, that we are going to be saddled with another useless Department for the purpose of collecting information and material which, let it be understood, is already very largely collected and waiting for any Government to consider and handle. You have got a large portion of the new building in St. James's Park, popularly known as the Duck Pond, where you have files galore laden with information taken from the experience that the Government so far have of the blockade. It does not matter on this occasion what the value of that information is likely to be. I do not think that I am incorrect in saying that you have got in practically every Department of the State a special Reconstruction Committee which has been sitting for weeks and months collecting information—sheaves of typewritten papers, everything with which the existing Departments of State can furnish us, all waiting for the Government. What do we want now with a new Department, in a new hotel, with thousands of people on its staff? It may be said that I am exaggerating, but let it be understood what this Minister is going to do. If he is going to be ready with all information—
Is not the hon. Baronet raising the general principle of. the Bill, and is it not really a Second Reading speech which he is delivering?
I was just thinking that the hon. Baronet has not quite seized the Amendment. Having decided in Clause 1 that there is to be this Ministry, the present Amendment is to limit it to problems other than questions of commercial, industrial, and agricultural policy.
Would not the hon. Baronet be quite correct in pointing out that if these words are to remain in the Bill it would be necessary to have all these expensive establishments?
I accept your ruling entirely, because I realise that I am carried some length beyond what otherwise I might think justified in dealing with this, because not only my right hon. Friend, but other Members previously have referred to the need of a Ministry especially intended to lead up directly to advantages to the industry, commerce, and agriculture of this country. I will not pursue this matter. I want now, in urging my views why industry, commerce and agriculture ought to be excluded from the purview of the Ministry, to point out that no one man, as I conceive it, can possibly have the qualifications necessary not for collecting, but for appreciating the information and material collected, which he, presumably, as a member of the Cabinet, is going to be responsible for explaining to members of the Government. He has got to know the ins and outs of every Department of State. No one man can possibly do it. Since every Department of State to-day is, in one form or another, connected with manufacturing, merchandise, trade, and labour, I cannot conceive how under this Bill the Government are going to get on any future occasion a fair representative statement of the facts of the situation. That information must, I submit, come from either the Minister, but probably in this case more from the permanent officials of the various Departments concerned with the industry in one form or another. Most of us would admit that the right hon. Gentleman who is going to take the position of Minister of Reconstruction has very considerable qualifications for certain elements of reconstruction, but those qualifications in no way touch industry or commerce or agriculture. Of all the Members in this House, there are few who can have less qualification for that purpose. What can an expert in medical science know about industries, the Consular Service, about patents, shipping, agriculture, labour, and all that is embodied in this enormous sphere of interest? That is one reason why I have very strong objection to this Bill as it stands. All who in this country are engaged in industry and commerce are living in the very gravest unrest, and we are intensifying that unrest by this Bill and by placing upon the Minister of Reconstruction practically the whole of the interest of industry and commerce.
The industry of this country is, without any question—I do not wish to exaggerate —on the edge of a precipice. As my hon. Friend rightly pointed out, it is just a question of doing the right or wrong thing, if our industries, after the War, are to go on prospering and extending. How difficult must be the situation at the end of the War when you bear in mind the tremendous financial burdens alone that industry has got to bear! There are disabilities in every possible direction— shortness of capital and many other disqualifications which I need not go into. It is quite true, I think, that on this question of overseas trade at the end of the War that our enemies will be under greater disabilities than we will be; but do not let us forget that unless we gain complete victory—and that is a matter of pure speculation just now, though I believe we will win yet you cannot count on it— you are going to be up against a people, however much greater their disabilities may be than ours, from the point of view of finance and so forth, who have for years in every country in the world have had official machinery to look after their interests. That machinery is in existence to-day, and you may be sure that the enemy are prepared with practical schemes ready to be put into operation at the end of the War. This is of no little importance when we are to determine whether or not we are to put the industrial and commercial interests of this country into the hands of another new Department, under a Minister exceedingly capable in many directions—social reforms and matters of that kind, but who, I venture to say, is totally without qualifications for so great a responsibility as that which it is proposed to impose upon him. Let us learn a lesson from the disaster of the National Service Department. This Bill, so far as agriculture and industry are concerned, is merely going to repeat the error of the National Service Department. With this difference, that the director of that Department was a business man, qualified for his work, whereas in this case the Minister who is to be appointed is not qualified. There was no need of the National Service Department, the duties of which could have been discharged by the Ministry of Labour; yet to-day you are going to put in the hands of the Minister of Reconstruction work that could be done by existing Ministers or permanent officials. One other reason which makes me feel very strongly against the Bill is that at the end of the War we should have a Minister of Commerce, but—
The hon. Gentleman is not confining himself to the Amendment. We had this discussion on the first Clause of the Bill.
Does not this Amendment raise the question of a Minister of Commerce, and does not what is proposed in the Bill include commerce?
Not directly. Of course, the Amendment would exclude commerce from its purview, but I do not think in proposing a Ministry of Reconstruction we could cover the subject. That was a point for the Second Reading.
If the Government do not accept this Amendment we cannot get a Minister of Commerce after the War is over. Of course, I respect your ruling, Sir, but I do feel that if anything justified this Amendment it is this consideration as to a Minister of Commerce; and if it is not accepted, after the War is over, we shall not have an opportunity of appointing a Minister of Commerce. I had in mind other points I wish to urge, but they have been so aptly put by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford that I need not add anything more. I very deeply regret, however, that my right hon. Friend has not found it in his power to do something to meet the extremely powerful argument urged by my hon. Friend in support of the Amendment. The Government resist the Amendment because they say it would mean the destruction of the Bill. But, if they cannot accept the Amendment, could they not offer to take the Bill back and reconsider their policy, if they have one? One of our complaints is that we do not know what policy the Government have got. If the Government carry the Bill, then, so far as industry and agriculture are concerned, it is going to be very serious indeed at the end of the War. It must be assumed that all countries, not only enemy countries but neutrals, will have their machinery ready to compete with us for the trade of the world, and it may be that their machinery and arrangements will be on better lines than ours, and will serve other countries to the detriment of our own.
The discussion which we have had I think proves that feeling is very strong on this subject. It seems to me that as the Bill stands the functions of the Minister of Reconstruction will be practically to reopen discussion of those great questions that have already been considered at such tremendous length by the Paris Committee, which was appointed for this special purpose. In connection with this question, there are three vital matters concerning the whole future life and prosperity of this country—commerce, industry, and agriculture—and it seems to me that, if those matters are left within the purview of the Minister of Reconstruction, that he will really be assuming the functions of the Prime Minister, because he will be immediately put into a position where, if he is going to be of any use at all with regard to this new Ministry, he has got to face the President of the Board of Agriculture, the President of the Board of Trade, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and all the other high officers of State. I submit that that is an impossible task, where he will have to consider vast questions which it is really too ludicrous to suggest that any one man can possibly master one after the other. The Home Secretary said that the Government will have the decision, that it will be the Government that will decide in all these questions. If that be so, why have a Ministry of Reconstruction at all? Why not, as has been so ably suggested, have some proper authority—a Committee to deal with these matters? Many of the Committees that have been sitting on these subjects have come to conclusions with regard to it. I suggested on the Second Reading of the Bill—and probably my hon. Friend agrees—that there must be some collecting machinery, and it seems to me if you put these great questions, which are introduced in the Amendment, into the hands of a junior Ministry, you are immediately setting up a rival to the authority of the great Departments of the State. You are not really helping on the matter, for you are simply adding to the discussion and confusion between the various Departments.
Take the question of agricultural policy, which we are extremely anxious to have kept out of the purview of this Bill. Agricultural policy has been discussed ad nauseam by the most expert Committees which have ever been called upon to deal with the subject in this country. I cannot conceive how it can be good for agriculture for the Minister of Reconstruction, who will be entirely new to all these questions, to begin turning over all these things again, in order to give his views to the Cabinet. On the face of it that seems to me absolutely absurd. One can conceive that there are a very large number of questions, apart from these, as to which the right hon. Gentleman might be able to do good thinking, or, as the Home Secretary said, very useful thinking. I cannot help thinking that the Government have not quite exercised that quality in this Bill, or otherwise they would not be putting on the shoulders of one man a burden which any single individual is quite incapable of carrying out, and certainly a Minister. With regard to agriculture, there are certain subsidiary questions which are vitally important where a Minister might carry out very good work. Presumably housing would be one of the questions to be considered in any reconstruction—[An HON. MEMBER: "No, that is in the Local Government Board."]—and in connection with agriculture there would arise the necessity for an enormous increase of housing accommodation. That in itself would be a very great work for a Minister of Reconstruction. It is quite a different thing for the Minister of Reconstruction to deal with the actual policy as to agriculture, which must be left to the Board of Agriculture and to the Prime Minister.
The Home Secretary was rather amused to be told that it was apparently the policy of this Minister to sit there and think. I think his mind will be very much strained. On these questions surely the President of the Board of Trade, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and the President of the Board of Agriculture have been thinking, or ought to have been, and it is for them to deal with those great questions, and for those who are experts, and not attempt to put them on a Ministry which is going to be brought to some new building, and which will have to train its experts. The obvious solution is that suggested by the hon. Member for Hereford, namely, that these Departments should come together on questions like these and really form a Committee of Ministers. There is the instance of policy on Consular service. That is a matter which has got to be decided between the Foreign Office and the Board of Trade; Surely it would be much less cumbrous to get the heads of those two Departments to come together and work out the arrangements for a scheme than to have a third body coming in from outside to make recommendations about something of which it knew nothing and which it had got to learn. The Home Secretary asked if the hon. Member for Hereford meant that Cabinet Ministers should appoint a nominee. That is what is actually being done. It has occurred, I think, in the case of fats or oils, and I think the hon. Gentleman who replies on questions of blockade is a nominee. [An HON. MEMBER: "Under-Secretary!"] It is quite conceivable that there might be another Gentleman equally competent in that Department. The Home Secretary seemed to think that the idea of a Committee of Ministers was extraordinary. I venture to think that the Cabinet has found many occasions on which a Committee of Ministers has been extraordinarily successful. I think I am right in saying that there was an Inter-departmental Committee set up with regard to the question of reconstruction on tonnage, and the Prime Minister came down and told us what a good thing it was.
The obvious way to settle the great differences which must arise and have to be adjusted between two great Departments, and the straight cut to business, is for those two Departments to come together, and not to have a third Department called in. I think this Ministry should have been called the Ministry of Delay, because it seems to me it must lead to endless discussions of questions which ought to be settled at the moment. When we see these three great questions included in this Bill, which we believe ought to be excluded, and which would still leave the Ministry of Reconstruction, even if he is a super-man, plenty to do, it is obvious it will really get nothing done. What the country wants at the present moment is that something shall be done. As has been said, there is not a single manufacturer from one end of the country to the other who has the remotest conception of what our policy is going to be after the War. Have we not been urging with all our might that we should be prepared for peace? Have we not been urging that we must be prepared to meet competition and all the after-war difficulties? You are not going to hasten matters by setting up a new Ministry which will take several months to collect clerks and make experts, and very likely have new premises built. You are not going to tell the manufacturers of the country, "'Look, here is our policy," but you are going to present to them the encouraging vision of the right hon. Gentleman going in to his Department for many months and diving into all the evidence of the Committees which have reported. Then the right hon. Gentleman has got to frame a policy. It is the Government who ought to frame the policy, and the Cabinet ought to have made up their minds before this and given some indication of what that policy is going to be. This great difficulty is going to occur: you are going to have a fatal hiatus, whereas if manufacturers and producers knew at the present time roughly—because I do not ask for any detailed programme— what our policy was they could start with work at once. I know that people in the past have had different views upon this question, but I believe I am right in saying that it is these great questions which we desire to exclude from the Bill. There is now a general kind of unanimity—
No!
Well, the right hon. Gentleman himself may be an exception, but, after all, the late Prime Minister was responsible for introducing the principles of this policy, and I never heard that the hon. Gentleman who has just interrupted me ever turned his Leader down. It was a colleague of the Leader who framed the Paris Resolutions.
The Paris Resolutions can be read in six ways.
Exactly; I know. The right hon. Gentleman is now exactly on the point which I have mentioned. There were very loose principles laid down. We were going to look after our raw materials. We were going to endeavour to assist our Allies, etc. These were things which had been agreed upon throughout the length and breadth of the country. But the manufacturers have not the remotest conception to what extent the Government are going to give them security. That is what they are calling for at the present time. Only a couple of hours ago I met one of the most brilliant economists, a gentleman who has always held completely opposite views to myself. He said to me, "Really what the country requires now is not the setting up of a cumbrous business which is going to evolve a policy; what they want to know from the Government is what their policy is going to be." Let me give one more instance—that is, the Imperial side of the question. Why should there not be considered, hand-in-hand with the others, the question of Empire development? At the present time you have from every part of the Empire, even more than in this country— because it affects the empire more—a widespread demand to know what is the policy of this Government. I give one of the questions in this connection. Take the case of British Guiana. They have not the remotest conception of what is going to be done at the conclusion of hostilities. It is absolutely essential that they should know. They can grow halt the amount of sugar that came from Germany before the War. They want to know now what is likely to happen; otherwise it will be too late, and again it will be the same old question. I asked a question the other day from the Board of Trade as to whether there had been any indication as to what was likely to happen to the Crown Colonies and Protectorates. The reply was a negative reply. I suppose the reason was because they did not know quite how they stood, and also, I suppose, they felt sure that this question would be handed on to the Minister for Reconstruction, and that he at his leisure would be able to look over these questions. I trust we have not heard the last word from the right hon. Gentleman on this question. I do not think his speech dealt with the main points at all. I hope we are going to hear that we are not going to have this really ridiculous suggestion that one man, who excellent as have been his efforts at the Ministry of Munitions, had not time always to deal with that one question, should deal with these. I hope that you are going to exclude these things that we suggest—things vital for the future of the country—from the Bill, and that you will not put on the Ministry an impossible burden.
I desire to support this Amendment. Unless it is accepted my position is one of offering the strongest possible objection to the Bill. We must know—it is vital that we should be told— what the Government policy is in regard to reconstruction. Every manufacturer in the country is asking this question. He demands to know. Representations out of number have been made to the Government, and they are still unanswered. There was a representative Resolution which was submitted to the Government as far back as 1st March. It was passed at a meeting of the Federation of British Industries — one of the manufacturers' organisations. It is a huge organisation, representing some 500 of the biggest manufacturing firms, some sixty manufacturers' associations, in total, I am told, representing something like 10,000 firms, employing many millions of capital in their businesses, and giving employment to many millions of hands. This federation presented a resolution to the Government, which I will read to the House. It runs:
"That this meeting urges upon His Majesty's Government the vital necessity of reaching a prompt decision as to the future economic policy to be adopted by this country, in order that due allowance may be made for the requirements of this policy in negotiating the terms of peace, and in order that manufacturers and others may make their preparations for trade after the War with due knowledge of the possible conditions."
That was on 1st March last. There was no reply until this Bill was introduced. But this Bill gives mighty little information. A year or more ago we had the Resolutions of the Paris Conference. The right hon. Gentleman opposite stated these could be read in a great many different ways. At a later period we had the Report of Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Committee. Still nothing was done. At a later stage we had the Resolutions of the Imperial Conference. Still nothing was done. Now this Bill is presented, and the country is still in the dark as to what are the intentions of the Government. May I ask if the Government know their policy? Have they a policy? Have they really attempted to think out a policy or are they just allowing matters to drift, hoping against hope, that a red-herring will turn up and the whole issue be side-tracked! I think that is the real position. I do not think this is a serious Bill. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Government, after all the evidence which has been taken, cannot come to a clear decision upon what, after all, is a comparatively simple question. The question is this: Whether we are to reconstruct British trade on the basis—
On a point of Order. This Amendment, I understand, is developing into a demand that the Government should state their policy on matters of economics generally. If the Debate is going to stray into these wide regions, will it be in order for those of us who do not agree with the hon. Gentleman to represent various considerations which we think the Government should have in their mind before they make such a declaration? Is it not entirely beyond the scope of this Bill that the Government should take the opportunity of making any declaration whatever of this kind?
The point has already been put forward by two or three hon. Members, and, having been put, I am afraid that I shall have to wait and see how it develops.
On a point of Order. Does that mean, Mr. Whitley, that subsequent speakers will be precluded from dealing with the very wide range of topics covered by the Amendment?
Since I have been in charge I have tried to keep the speeches on the Amendment to that point. It is a pretty large one as it is.
The Amendment does perhaps unfortunately raise a very large question for discussion. I suggest that what I was pointing out is quite in order, namely, that the Government have done nothing up to the present to indicate what their real policy is, and this Amendment is put down for the purpose of obtaining from the Government a declaration of their policy.
That is just the point. It certainly is not in order either to ask for a declaration, or to argue pro or con for a policy when we are dealing now with legislation.
Of course, we are dealing with legislation, and the Amendment seeks to exclude from that legislation certain matters of policy. That being so, I venture to think that in pressing this Amendment one is entitled to deal to some extent with the policy which is involved. Unless one did so, the Amendment would really be more or less unintelligible. We have endeavoured to obtain from the Government some information concerning that policy. It was only a few days ago that I put a question to the Leader of the House as to whether the future policy of reconstruction was to be a policy of a tariff on foreign imports for the protection—
That is just the question which is quite outside the scope. The hon. Member is entitled to say, as other Members have said, that the facts are all known and have been investigated on this subject, and that nothing remains but a decision. That is the argument I understand in support of this Amendment, but certainly it is not competent to argue for or against the particular decision to be taken on the facts.
9.0 P.M.
Of course, that limits very considerably the arguments which I wish to offer to the Committee, but I do protest against this Bill, unless the Clause is amended as we desire to see it by the Amendment which is before the Committee. It is not simply a question of manufacturers who are interested. It is a much wider question than that. Labour is interested, and I should have thought that in pressing this Amendment I should have had the very active support of the Labour party in the matter, because we are bound to come to a moment when peace will be declared, when the further production of munitions will be suddenly stopped—in fact, we know that all the contracts which the Government are making contain a Clause for suddenly breaking them—and then it will be a problem how to give employment to the working classes. I should have thought, therefore, the Labour party would have taken the view which my friends take in this matter, and that they would have seen their way to giving us their very active support. For the argument which I attempted to raise, but which you have ruled out of order, it would have been necessary to refer personally to the right hon. Gentleman who has been appointed Minister of Reconstruction. We all know that he has a policy which is a lifelong policy, and he has ideals in regard to the future; but his policy and his ideals are not ours, and in begging the Committee to accept the Amendment, I think I am doing service to our country, because, after all, the question of trade, manufacture, and the employment of the working classes after the War is one of very real and very vital importance. I do hope that my right hon. Friend opposite will be able, before the Debate on this Amendment closes, to offer some clearer indication of the Government policy.
I would gladly do that if I could, but I should be entirely out of order in doing so.
I fail to see why my right hon. Friend should think he would be out of order in indicating the Govern- ment policy. At any rate, we, who are supporting this Amendment, feel that we are being let down by our late colleagues. We feel that most seriously, and if we are going to be let down, then let it be clearly understood—of course, I only speak for myself—that if the powers which this Bill will confer are to be handed to the Minister of Reconstruction without any clear declaration of policy from the Government, I shall consider that, as regards the protection of trade by a tariff, we have been let down by our colleagues, and I shall consider myself free to act accordingly.
I did not intend taking part in the Debate until it developed not into a question of whether a Minister of Reconstruction was necessary or not, but rather as to whether the policy of the future was to be Tariff Reform or something else. I at once agree with your ruling, which clearly makes this Amendment one that prevents a full discussion on economic policy. Incidentally, I sympathise with my hon. Friend opposite who was prevented from delivering a very interesting speech on that account. He appealed to the Labour party as people above everyone else who ought to support this Amendment because it is intended to provide work when the War is over. Incidentally he appealed to us because if this Amendment is carried those returning from the front would find employment. I think that is a fair statement of his argument. Let me remind him that it is not in this direction that the Labour party is looking for unemployment to be solved when the War is over. We are perfectly convinced that the men who have faced the hell of the trenches for two or three years and have risked what they have on behalf of the country will be quite prepared to take care of themselves when they come back, and they will see that they will have a fair crack of the whip. I am going to submit that this Amendment appears to do exactly what the speeches of various hon. Members wanted it not to do. They say, in substance, that the real object of this Amendment is in order that there shall be some clearly defined policy of reconstruction after the War.
Under the broad guise of that definition two things have emerged: Firstly, that Tariff Reform is wanted as the policy; and, secondly, that the present Minister of Reconstruction is not a person who com- mends himself to them. That appears to be the complaint. It is rather remarkable that, in the anxiety to accomplish a clearly defined policy and to have a bold declaration from the Government as to what their policy is to be, they proceed immediately to move an Amendment that will exclude from the purview of consideration by any Reconstruction Minister the very things that they look upon as vital and; essential. The speech of my hon. Friend clearly urges that these questions should be taken from the Reconstruction Minister, and they followed this up by arguments to show that the real object of: the Amendment was to get a declaration of policy—and, indeed, they went on to say that the manufacturers of this country are at this moment unable to conduct their businesses because of the absence of knowledge as to what the policy is going to be. I am going to submit that no Government could at this stage declare any policy. Whatever our views of a fiscal system or fiscal question may be, the policy of the country, economical and military, must be determined by the kind of peace that will: be made. Over and above that the: Minister of Reconstruction must from necessity consider what is to be done with these undertakings that are to-day temporarily under Government control. For instance, there is a strong consensus of; opinion in this country that the railways will never go back to private ownership.
Then why do not the Government say so?
If my hon. Friend was a member of the Government, I take it that he would not very easily declare his policy when £1,300,000,000 worth of capital had to be dealt with in a certain way without clearly understanding all that was involved in it. He would first have to determine how much of the watered capital of the railways was going to belong to the State. He would also have to consider whether the canals would have to go with the railways, and next whether there was going to be private competition—
The hon. Member has given me a very good illustration of following the lead in another direction, and I am grateful to him for showing how important it is that we should keep to the exact point.
Before the hon. Member finishes his speech might I ask if he pro- poses that the Minister of Reconstruction should go into all these interesting matters?
Yes. I think that before you can have reconstruction on any subject you must understand it and consider it in all its bearings. Let us take, first, the Munitions Department. I think there will be a general agreement that that Department at this moment has got sufficient to do to deal with the problems arising out of the War and with the provision and equipment of munitions. Take the Board of Trade as the next illustration. They are fairly well occupied in dealing with questions arising out of the War affecting their particular Department. Whether it is necessary to create a Ministry for this purpose I am certainly not satisfied, but I am satisfied that there should be concerted and uniform effort, and that this great and important work should be given to a particular Department which would have to consider it in all its bearings. Having listened to the speeches, I am bound to say that there does appear to me to be more anxiety on the question of tariff than on reconstruction. With regard to the particular Amendments behind it, there seems to me a suspicion that the Minister of Reconstruction is not particularly sound on the policy that some of my hon. Friends are advocating.
Whenever Tariff Reform is either hinted at or spoken of, it is like a red rag to a bull so far as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Thomas) is concerned, but I do not think that Tariff Reform pure and simple is intended. We are all anxious that the reconstruction after the War should be on the broadest lines to benefit the country, irrespective of any popular cry. I do not think the Home Secretary, who is in charge of the Bill, or the Solicitor-General quite appreciates the strength and importance of the support that this Amendment has in the House among many of the strongest supporters of the present Government. The reply of the Home Secretary just now was very unsatisfactory, and I am afraid it leaves us absolutely no option but to divide, unless the right hon. Gentleman can say something more assuring in the way of promising further consideration, and that he will not say the final word now. The last thing we want to do is to divide against the Government. It is a great pity that the right hon. Gentleman should be always selected to undertake the most difficult Bills in this House. He is so straightforward, so fair-dealing, so courteous, and so agreeable that one finds the greatest possible difficulty in opposing him under any circumstances. I think I have answered the jeers of hon. Members. That was my only reason for saying what I did. One does not like to oppose him. One feels quite sure he is doing something against his better feeling.
We think that this Bill would be extremely injurious to reconstruction after the War. Take, for instance, the question of agriculture, one of the three subjects mentioned in the Amendment. Is the Minister of Reconstruction to have power to impede or interfere with the Corn Production Bill, which is to settle our policy with regard to agriculture for a good many years to come? It would be very detrimental to the object we have in view, which is to increase the food supply of the country. We know what are the particular political principles of the suggested Minister of Reconstruction, and I am sure that the farmers of this country would not have the same confidence in him as possibly they would have in some other personality. I now come to the question of industry and commerce, which I lump together. Supposing, as was suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas), that the Minister of Reconstruction took a socialistic line and went in for the nationalisation of the railways, of the mines, and of the land—
Really these questions of policy are quite outside the scope of the Amendment. If any decision on policy is taken, it will have to be promulgated in this House and dealt with. It will be a matter of carrying out such information and advice as may be given under the powers of this Bill.
I hope you will credit me with the fact that I was only touching upon it lightly and that was really the whole of the remarks that I had to make upon policy. They were leading up to exactly what you have said, namely, that the Minister has only to give advice and report. That is true, but there are Committees which are giving advice and which, have to report. All this Bill will do with regard to agriculture, commerce, and industry is to provide that the advice of the Committees and the report of the Committees shall filter through his mind. If his mind is that of one whose policy is totally opposed to the majority of the members of the present Government and possibly to the majority of the House, or is opposed to this, that, or the other particular interest, like the Corn Production Bill, it will have a very injurious effect. It is quite unnecessary that you should have this intermediary between these Committees and the Government. These Committees can advise the Prime Minister and the Government. Why should their advice filter through the mind of a man who possibly may not be a superman at all, but quite an ordinary individual? If that should be so, what possible useful service can he perform in these most important matters of industry, commerce, and agriculture? The obligation to advice is in the Committee, and to transmit that advice through the Minister of Reconstruction is useless and may be injurious. It is certainly useless if he does not differ from the Committee, and it may be injurious if he does. If it is a mere question of reporting, the secretary reports. You do not want a Minister of Reconstruction to report the result of Committees to the Prime Minister and the Government.
Those very important matters, the Resolutions of the Paris Conference, which have been mentioned so often and upon which the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins) dwelt at such length, must be dealt with by Committees. There is scarcely any man in the country who is sufficiently acquainted with international finance and with international political economy to be able really to take grasp of all those questions. I should be out of order if I referred to the qualifications of the proposed Minister of Reconstruction, but it would be a great flattery if one were to attribute to him all those great qualities which can only reside in a large number of very expert financiers and political economists, who if they came together would be able to advise the Government, probably with very great profit to the Government. It is impossible to imagine that any Minister of Reconstruction, unless he were a super-man, would be of any use at all. We who propose this Amendment have no confidence in any Minister of Reconstruction to whom could be entrusted the enormous task of advising the Government, whether assisted or "not by Committees, upon such important subjects as industry, commerce, and agriculture, together with international finance and international political economy. Somebody has suggested various names for this new Ministry, and it might ultimately result in being called a Ministry of Misconstruction.
It was with some reluctance that I got up in any way to oppose the present Government. I should dislike extremely being obliged this evening to vote against the Government, and I am sure that nearly all the supporters of this Amendment are in the same position, and hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary will be able to give us some assurance that the matter will be reconsidered and that the Government will not say the last word here and now, because if they do they put a great many of us in a very serious position. These matters of international political economy and of political arrangements after the War, and these matters of industry, commerce and agriculture have been concerning us very deeply for nearly the last three years. We have formed very strong opinions upon the matter, and we have brought our views to the notice of members of the Government. Those great Resolutions passed at the Paris Conference and at the Imperial Conference are to some extent coloured by the efforts which we have made, and we do think that we ought to be met a little more generously by the right hon. Gentleman.
Before the discussion proceeds further, I think it my duty to call the attention of hon. Members of the Committee to Standing Order No. 19, which is a Rule against hon. Members repeating either their own arguments or the arguments already used by other Members in the Debate. I shall be glad if hon. Members will kindly observe that Standing Order.
On that point of Order. May I ask you, Sir—I am afraid I have never heard of that Rule before or seen its terms—how a poor hon. Member is to know what various people have been saying if he has not been present in the House? We cannot be in the House all the time.
That is the very reason why these special words are put into the Standing Order, so that if hon. Members have not been here during the whole Debate, then they had better remain in their seats, for fear of saying over again what has been said already.
May I ask whether you, Sir, can apply that Rule strictly in future to Members of the Front Bench, who are continually in the habit, without having listened to any part of the Debate, of coming in and repeating over again at enormous length the arguments already used?
I thought it better, in the first instance, to give the Rule some general application, rather than apply it to any particular person, so that the Standing Order might be observed more than it is.
I will endeavour to observe your ruling, Sir, and to approach the matter under discussion from a somewhat different point of view than that taken so far by most of the speakers. During the last three years I have spent 75 per cent. of my time in endeavouring to grapple with problems of reconstruction. I attach the greatest importance to all those problems, because I believe, and I have expressed this opinion before in the House, that the country which the soonest develops its own resources and recuperates from the effects of this terrible War will be the country that will really reap the fruits of victory, or, in the event of defeat, will soonest minimise the sad effects of defeat. It is because I believe so strongly that reconstruction is necessary and must be thorough and be done quickly that I support the Amendment. I am convinced that the establishment of this new Ministry will not expedite but will delay reconstruction. I speak with some experience of working on reconstruction committees in various Departments. I believe that this new Ministry will delay reconstruction, because it will paralyse other Departments of State, such as the Foreign Office, the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Labour, and the Board of Agriculture.
I must really point out to the hon. Member that that is the argument which has been tendered to me for the past three hours by a great number of hon. Members. I think the Committee might come to a decision now.
There is one argument which has not yet been used. A great many hon. Members object to this Amendment because it is advocated by those who are designated Tariff Reformers. That is really not fair. If the Amendment is a sound one and is based, as it was based by the Mover, on merits— he purposely went out of his way to dis- claim that he moved this Amendment in any sense of the word as an advocate of Tariff Reform, and said that he moved it for the sake of machinery—we ought to accept it. Many hon. Members are indisposed to support the Amendment because they think that many who have spoken are in favour of Tariff Reform, the Paris Conference Resolutions, and so on, and derive their motive from that fact. We have nothing to do with motives but with the Amendment as it stands. Its object is to eliminate the problems of commercial, industrial, and agricultural policy. There are many of us who believe that this Bill is a bad Bill, and that the creation of this Ministry of Reconstruction is unwise.
That is an argument against the Bill as a whole which the hon. Member has already tendered in my hearing several times.
May I say only one word upon the reasons which will compel me to go into the Lobby against the Government? I am not influenced by the remarks of the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Denniss) with regard to the attributes of the Home Secretary. I do not deny that the right hon. Gentleman possesses all the attributes which my hon. Friend has attributed to him, but I am influenced, not by courtesy or pleasantness in Debate, but by sound argument, and in my opinion it is impossible to bring forward sound arguments for not accepting this Amendment. I do not know whether my hon. Friend means to insinuate that other Members of the Government do not possess those attributes which so distinguish the Home Secretary. I am sure he did not mean to do so, but at first blush it rather looked as if the Home Secretary had been singled out because he alone possessed those particular attributes. The reason I am going to support this Amendment is a very simple one, so simple that, though probably it may have been incidentally mentioned before, I think I ought, especially as I recognise the seriousness of voting against the Government, to say why I am going to do so. I do not want to enter into the question of Tariff Reform. Tariff Reform has nothing to do with the Amendment. It may be quite true that my hon. Friend who moved it is an apostle of Tariff Reform, but it does not follow, because he is a distinguished supporter of that very excellent doctrine that everything he does is instigated by his interest in that particular subject. The reason why I intend to support the Amendment is that I desire to limit the operation of this Clause. I do not see how that can be done otherwise than by deleting it altogether, which I should like to do, but arguments in support of that course would now be out of order, therefore, we cannot do it in any better way than by supporting this Amendment. You do not want to give a roving commission to a new Minister to deal with all kinds of questions which may or may not arise.
On a point of Order. I think you, Sir, said that we should not have vain repetitions. We have had all this before many times tonight.
I think this intervention is better left to the Chair than to hon. Members. I was just about to tell the right hon. Baronet that observance of what I said just now applies to the Front Bench.
Certainly. And I think you will agree that there is no Member of the House who is more desirous of observing your ruling, and who is more successful in doing it.
I quite appreciate that, and I only tell the right hon. Baronet that in his absence, during the last hour and a half what he is now saying has been said by four, five or six other Members.
I think you will admit that I was giving my reasons extremely shortly, and that it is in the power of any Member to state the reasons why he is going to take a particular course. I do not want to pursue the subject any further. I have already laid down what, in my opinion, is the proper course to pursue. I was not in the House during the last hour and a half, but I was in during the whole afternoon, and I do not remember a moment —I have not the excellent memory of the hon. Gentleman (Sir S. Collins)—that the arguments which I have laid before the Committee have been repeated possibly by the hon. Gentleman.
I withheld myself.
I am sorry for that. I hope when we go to a Division the hon. Gentleman will not withhold himself, but will come into the right Lobby and support one of the best Amendments which has been moved for some time.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, after the word "industrial," to insert the word "educational."
I should like to say a word in support of the Amendment before the Committee, and I think I can keep within your ruling by moving this Amendment to it. It opens up a wholly new line on which I trust I shall not repeat any of the arguments which I have not heard during my absence. I introduced this subject on the Second Reading of the Bill, and while I am strongly in support of that portion of the Amendment which proposes to emancipate the head of the Board of Agriculture from interference by this new roving Minister, who is to be a kind of over lord of other Ministers, I am even more strongly in favour of protecting the Minister of Education from interference by this new Minister. As I understand, the appointment of the Minister of Education was really a new departure in the history of education in this country. It was the first time in the whole history of the educational administration of Great Britain that the appointment was made of a man who is given a fairly free hand to reorganise the whole educational system of the country, and the Government, I thought enormously to their credit, having got hold of a man who was competent and expert in this all important office, gave him a reasonable free hand and he delivered a speech to which I listened with the most rapt attention, and which every one who listened to him hoped, marked a kind of new departure in the educational history of this country. Are we to be told that the latest idea of the Government is that they are to put another man over the Minister of Education to teach him how to reconstruct the educational system? It is perfectly monstrous. It is bound to result in friction. It is, to my mind, an insult to the man whom you have appointed as head of the educational system. There is no conceivable reason why it should be done. There is no reason why the man who is now in control of the education of this country, and who has bent his mind evidently to a radical reorganisation of the educational system of the country, should not be left alone to carry it out, and to put another man over his head with a roving commission, the extent of which none of us understands, is nothing short of an outrage.
I am entirely in favour of this Amendment.
Eighty-eight Members of the Government.
The next Amendment on the Paper does not make any alteration.
I think my Amendment, after the word "arise," to insert the words "either before or," is surely in order.
Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.
Question put, "That the words 'other than questions of commercial, industrial, educational and agricultural policy' be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 64; Noes, 89.
Division No. 87.] AYES. [9.43 p. m Archdale, Lieut. Edward M. Hackett, John O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G. Hanson, Charles Augustin Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Bird, Alfred Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Perkins, Walter Frank Boyton, James Holt, Richard Durning Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Burn, Colonel C. R. Hope, Lieut.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian) Rawson, Colonel Richard H. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hunt, Major Rowland Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Clive Captain Percy Archer Joynson-Hicks, William Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Kilbride, Denis Stewart, Gershom Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) King, Joseph Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Tickler, T. G. Craik Sir Henry Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Touche, Sir George Alexander Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Whitty, Patrick Joseph Cullinan, John Mason, David M. (Coventry) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Denniss, E. R. B. Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Dillon, John Molteno, Percy Alport Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Dixon, C. H. Neville, Reginald J. N. Yate, Colonel C. E. Flavin, Michael Joseph Newman, John R. P. Fletcher, John Samuel Nicholson. Wiliam G. (Petersfield) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Foster, Philip Staveley Nolan, Joseph Hewins and Captain Viscount Gretton, John Nuttall, Harry Duncannon.
NOES Adamson, William Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford Radford, Sir George Heynes Baird, John Lawrence Greig, Colonel J. W. Raffan, Peter Wilson Baldwin, Stanley Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Rea, Walter Russell Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon) Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N. Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Robinson, Sidney Beck, Arthur Cecil Hewart, Sir Gordon Rowlands, James Bellairs, Commander C. W. Hills, John Waller Samuels, Arthur W. Brace, Rt. Hon. William Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Shaw, Hon. A. Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Holmes, Daniel Turner Sherwell, Arthur James Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Shortt, Edward Chancellor, Henry George Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Spear, Sir John Ward Clough, William Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Steel-Maitland, Sir A. D. Clynes, John R. Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Kellaway, Frederick George Tootill, Robert Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs, Ince) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Watson, John B. (Stockton) Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Maden, Sir John Henry Williams, Aneurin (Durham) Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Millar, James Duncan Williams, John (Glamorgan) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Edge, Captain William Morgan, George Hay Wilson-Fox, Henry Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Winfrey, Sir Richard Falconer, James Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Wing, Thomas Edward Fell, Arthur Parker, James (Halifax) Wolmer, Viscount Finney, Samuel Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Worthington Evans, Major Sir L. Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Pease, Rt. Hon. H. Pike (Darlington) Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Pratt, J. W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Lord Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund E. Talbot and Captain F. Guest. Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
I thought that was the same point that was put before the Committee on Clause 1. When the hon. Member moved the Amendment on Clause 1, it was discussed and negatived; therefore it would be impossible to have Clause 2 in that form and not Clause 1.
My Amendment is to insert the words "either before or," so that the Clause would read, "either before or after the termination of the present War." The first time I proposed it in Clause 1 it was in connection with the question of organisation and development after the termination of the War. This is quite a different matter. We are now dealing with the duty of the Minister to consider and advise on the problems which may arise. The point is somewhat similar, but really there is a point of difference in substance.
I cannot see the difference. If the hon. Member has a difference that is all he can deal with.
I beg to move, after the word "arise" ["which may arise"], to insert the words "either before or."
I will move the Amendment very briefly and ask the Home Secretary to accept it. After the recent indication of unpopularity which he has just received in the Division Lobby, it would be wise to make some concession to Members like myself, who do not want to waste time, but want to get a Bill which, if it is going to pass at all, will carry some moral support from the House.
The problems which the Minister should deal with are, of course, after-the-war problems. They are not problems which arise during the War. I do not think the Amendment ought to be accepted.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, alter the word "inquiries" ["conduct such inquiries"], to insert the word "and."
I have another Amendment on the Paper I should like to move, to leave out the words "and make such recommendations as he thinks fit," and to insert the words "as may be necessary." The Clause would then read, "conduct such inquiries and prepare such schemes as may be necessary." I have very often been pulled up by the Chair on the ground that my Amendments when drafted did not make sense, but I do think that this Clause that we are discussing at the moment is one of the worst drafted Clauses we could possibly have. I cannot see what you want recommendations for at all when earlier in the Clause you have the word "advise." It is simply a case of tautology, something which is not wanted. What is going to happen? The Minister of Reconstruction will, first of all, according to this Clause, put on his thinking cap, get all the brainwaves of other Ministers and officials, and then he will go round and advise any particular Minister or Department or official or individual, if he likes, on some particular problem. Then, if he likes, before he gives his advice or afterwards, he can set on foot or conduct any inquiry or experiment he wants to, and prepare a scheme. Having done all that, he has given his advice, but according to this Clause he is to make, if he wants to, such recommendations as he thinks fit. If he gives advice, why make recommendations? Surely to give advice and make recommendations is one and the same thing. I can only imagine that there is a positive, comparative, and superlative; consideration positive, advice comparative, and recommendation superlative. Having given his advice, and if it has not been taken, then he goes round armed with this extra authority, with the seal on his watch chain as it were, and recommends, otherwise directs, that his advice should be taken. If that is not the case, I cannot for the life of me see why you want these word? at all. I also think the words "as he thinks fit" are very loose in a Bill like this. I cannot help thinking that if my Amendment were adopted and the words "as may be necessary" were put in we should be able to have a Clause that read much more simply and which would not cause alarm to other Departments and officials. It may be that the Minister in charge of the Bill may explain the difference between making recommendations and giving advice after you have instituted and conducted your inquiry and made your scheme. If so, I shall listen to his explanation with much interest, but until it is explained I do not see why those words should be in, and I think they had better be left out.
10.0 P.M.
I confess I find some difficulty in understanding what is the precise objection which my hon. Friend takes to this Clause. If he had not asked me to endeavour to explain it I certainly should have made no such attempt, and if, in the course of making the attempt at his request I seem to be expounding the obvious I hope at any rate the rest of the House will excuse me for so doing. If my hon. Friend will be good enough to look at the beginning of Clause 2 he will see that the duty of the Minister of Reconstruction is divided, in the first place, into two parts. One part is consideration and the other part is advice. When we go a little further the Clause provides that "for the purposes aforesaid," that is, the purposes mentioned in the preceding lines of the Bill, the Minister will have the duty to institute and conduct inquiries, to prepare schemes, and to make recommendations. These, I should have thought, were obvious provisions, first of all, for consideration, and, secondly, for advice. But what inquiries, what schemes, and what recommendations is he respectively to institute, to prepare, and to make? Those which he thinks fit; and to or for those words my hon. Friend apparently desires to add or substitute the words "as may be necessary." I pass over the hundred other observations which immediately occur to the minds of Members upon these words, and mention only one. Suppose the words, "as may be necessary" were to be substituted for the words "as he thinks fit." Who is to be the judge of the necessity? Is the Minister to come to this House and ask the opinion of this House upon the question whether the particular inquiry, the scheme, or the recommendation is necessary? Obviously not. The words "as he thinks fit" evidently repose in the Minister a discretion. The words "as may be necessary" seem to import another and a different tribunal which would reduce the scheme to an absurdity. Indeed, I am not quite sure that that is not my hon. Friend's intention. Somebody has said something about motives. I will not inquire into motives, but the intention of this Amendment is to take away all discretion from the Minister himself, and to set a limit, derived I know not from what source, upon the work he has to do.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "whether conferred by Statute or otherwise, as His Majesty may by Order in Council authorise the Minister to exercise or perform, concurrently with, or in consultation with, the Government Department or authority concerned," and to insert instead thereof the words "as are conferred on him by Statute."
I attach very considerable importance to this Amendment. The object of it is perfectly clear and is to preserve to the House of Commons the right to say what powers are to be conferred upon this particular Minister. As the Bill stands at present the Minister may have any powers —there is no limit to them and there is no definition that may be conferred upon him by Order in Council—and further any Order in Council may, for the purposes, of this Act, be added to, varied, or revoked by a subsequent Order in Council. I do want to ask the Committee earnestly to consider what they are doing if they pass the Clause in this form. They are practically making a dictator of the Prime Minister for the time being. I do not care who the Prime Minister is. He may be a member of my late party or a. member of the Radical party or a member of the Labour party. He may be the most excellent Prime Minister that the country has ever had or is ever likely to have; but if he is this House ought not to abrogate the powers imposed in it by the electorate to any dictator or give to one man, whatever his position, whatever his merits, and whatever his talents, the power of saying, "I will settle what powers the Minister may have"
I do not believe that since the time of Charles I., or, perhaps, Oliver Cromwell any such proposal has ever been put before any House, or if it had been put before any House any such proposal could possibly have been carried. The Solicitor-General is a master of debate. He has great knowledge of the law and great knowledge of the Acts of Parliament which have been passed in times remote, far greater knowledge and far greater powers of expression than I have or ever hope to have. [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] I quite recognise my deficiency. I do not know who it was who said "hear, hear," but I quite recognise it and I regret it. I should like to have the powers of the learned Solicitor-General, because I should like to see him standing here at this Box denouncing the very proposition which, I know, in a short time he will rise to defend. I would earnestly ask the House to consider before they pass this Clause. I do not want to make a long speech, it is much too serious to make a long speech upon; it is a question which anybody can understand; it does not require any arguments; it is a very simple and plain. matter, and I am not sure I can express it better than by saying that it is to preserve-to the House of Commons that constitutional right, for which it fought with kings, and for which, I think wrongly, it beheaded one king—it is to preserve that, and prevent us getting back into the time, when one man shall decide how this country is to be governed; what powers are to be given to a particular Minister that I move this Amendment. I beg to Move.
I support strongly, if not this Amendment, at any rate some drastic treatment of the end of this Sub-clause, which I am quite sure merits all the strong condemnation which such an eminent defender of our liberties and constitutional practice as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London has showered upon it. I have got another solution. I do not often like to differ from my right hon. Friend on matters like this, but my Amendment will give another solution to this obvious and objectionable difficulty which has been raised, and it is contained in the three Amendments which you will find next on the Order Paper. I am inclined to think that my solution is a better one than that of my right hon. Friend, for I propose that the powers that shall be given to this Minister of Reconstruction shall not necessarily be conferred upon him by Statute. Any new question that arises has to pass here through both Houses of Parliament, and would be unnecessarily difficult, arduous and dilatory. I propose that a Resolution of this House should have the effect of conferring upon the Minister of Reconstruction powers which are now in another Department, and, if I may be allowed, I would just like to point out how my three Amendments would actually make the Clause read. They would have this effect, and the Clause would run as follows:
"That the Minister of Reconstruction shall, for the purposes aforesaid, have such powers and duties of any Government Department or authority as the House of Commons shall by resolution authorise the Ministry to exercise or perform."
Therefore, instead of the Minister going) as under the Bill he would, to the Prime Minister, or some superior body, and say, "Get me an Order in Council to take away, or exercise the authority which the Local Government Board, or the Home Office, the Board of Agriculture, or the Board of Education, have now, so that I may reconstruct them "—instead of going for an Order in Council to get these extraordinary powers, he would have to come to this House, and by a Resolution of this House get the powers he desires conferred upon him. I think some such solution is a very much better method than that proposed by the Bill, and, if I may modestly say so, it is even a better proposal than that of the right hon. Gentleman on the Front Bench, because, after all, if we want this Bill to work, there are two things we want to secure. One is publicity. We do not want this Minister of Reconstruction to make a number of schemes, which we know nothing about, and after the War are suddenly sprung upon us, and are told we must come into line. If we have a Resolution of this House for any new scheme affecting other Departments, the public will get informed. That is the first point. The other point I would urge is this. If this Ministry of Reconstruction is to do any good, it must act smoothly in connection with other Departments. It must have the authority given to it for interference with the work of another Department, and must have that authority given to it by the moral power and conviction of this House, and not by a mere Order in Council. There is friction enough, we all know, between the various Departments, and one of the results of the taking away of the powers from the House of Commons, and the laxing of Cabinet control, has been an enormous amount of friction between Government Departments. Everybody knows it. Some of the frictions and animosities and the difficulties, interdepartmental, have been quite extraordinary. Now there is much ground for increasing these difficulties and friction in connection with a Ministry of Reconstruction. I believe some such solution, either that which I propose, or which my right hon. Friend proposes, is certainly very much better than the solution as contained in the Bill. Therefore I hope earnestly the Solicitor-General will see we are very serious, and are very desirous to help him to something good. He has got a bad Bill; we want to make it better, and I hope, therefore, in a reasonable spirit, which he can adopt, not a clever and a very amusing style of persiflage, which he so admirably assumes from time to time, when he has no reason behind his arguments, he will meet us and that that better style will assert itself on this occasion and that we shall be met in a proper spirit.
I do not think it is realised how very far the powers which are proposed to confer through Orders in Council will carry this Clause. We are now endeavouring to pass a Bill to clear up the orgy of Orders in Counicl, Regulations, and other unconstitutional proceedings which have been rendered necessary, and submitted to, as a necessity of war. It is very remarkable that in a Bill of Reconstruction we should still be asked to proceed by those methods which have led to the very confusion which this Bill is intended to clear up. I think it should be observed that there is nothing in the Bill at the present moment to lay down how this Minister is to proceed. He is to have under the Bill powers of the most wide description. He is to be able to dominate, by an Order in Council on behalf of his chief, the Prime Minister, every Department of the Government; enter into every Department, look at its records, make use of its officers and servants, and for purpose of inquiry, investigations and schemes can use the Department as if it was his own. But that is not the end of the matter. This Minister's powers under this Clause are not limited to Departments. As the Clause stands in its naked form they are extended to every subject in the realm, and the Minister may go into any business house, bank, solicitor's office, or other office, wherever records are kept, wherever business is transacted, and lay under contribution the staff, the information, and the records for these purposes. I do not know whether the House wishes to confer these enormous autocratic powers without any other check than the limitation by Order in Council.
I submit that this is a question of high constitutional principle. This Minister is outside the Constitution. He is extraneous to our previous institutions. He is to have no executive functions. There is no need that these inquiries should be conducted by the method proposed in the Bill. It is a surprise to me and to many Members of this House to notice the secret subterranean methods by which the Committee on Reconstruction, which proposes to take over the administration of this Bill, has been manned and has conducted its inquiries. Many persons in this country do not understand why this secrecy should have been maintained. I suggest to the Committee for consideration that in these matters, which affect the whole future of the country, there should be more openness of method and policy, and there is no reason why the House should not be fully informed. We should be asked to give any powers that may be necessary in a Statute, when powers have to be extended. I think that the right hon. Member for the City of London has done a great service in bringing this matter to the notice of the House, and I hope that the Committee will not allow this new Ministry to be armed with practically unlimited authority to be conferred on it by Order in Council.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset assured me— I am not at all certain that his assurance was necessary—that he was serious, and he invited me, because he felt that the circumstances demanded it, to endeavour to treat this Amendment seriously. I will endeavour to do so, but I am bound to point out that his method of seconding this Amendment was, in my too short experience, a little singular. The proposal of the right hon. Baronet was that the powers of the Minister of Reconstruction should be such as are conferred on him by Statute, and the way in which my hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset supported that proposal was to suggest that a Statute was no good, but that what was really wanted was a Resolution of the House of Commons authorising the Minister to—
I did not say that a statute would not be any good. I think that it would be a very much better system than the Orders in Council proposed. But I suggested that a Resolution of the House was, for the purposes of the Government, simpler and shorter, and would take up much less time.
There is no need to discuss the question of a Resolution of the House, because it would be constitutionally an impossible proposition. A Resolution of this House would not have the effect in law of giving powers to Departments. We can leave that on one side.
I was going to point out that fact. I would observe that my hon. Friend, by his argument, destroys the Amendment he got up to support, because he pointed out one of the many objections to limiting the matter as it proposes. What was the contention of the right hon. Baronet? He pointed out that as the Bill stood there would be no limit nor definition, because the Minister would not only have the powers which are conferred by Statute, but also the powers which may be conferred upon him by Order in Council. That was his argument.
It was not quite that.
It is near enough for him to allow it to pass. The same argument was put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland, who urged that under the Clause as it stands the Minister will have a quite unlimited power. To raise that argument is to ignore the perfectly clear limitations which are contained in the Clause. In the first few lines of the Clause the Bill provides that the Minister may consider and advise upon certain problems; and then all his powers are limited by the words "for the purposes aforesaid," that is, for the purposes of consideration and of advice. He can institute inquiries, prepare schemes, and make recommendations, but subject always to the limiting words "for the purposes aforesaid." So it is only for the purpose of consideration and advice that he is to enjoy the powers and duties of any Government Department or authority, and of those existing powers and duties only such powers and duties as are conferred upon him by Statute or by Order in Council in other words, he may never do more than consider and advise, and for the purposes of consideration and advice he may institute inquiries, and so forth, and for that manifestly limited purpose he may only have such powers and duties of Government Departments and authorities as are conferred upon him by Statute or by Order in Council. To suggest, in these circumstances, that the powers of the Minister of Reconstruction are unlimited is clearly to fly in the face of plain words. It is a mere matter of convenience that his restricted powers and duties are conferred or imposed upon the Minister by Statute or by Order in Council, but that alternative is offered, and the whole ambit of his power is limited by the fact that it must not exceed the existing and known powers of a Government Department or authority, and, secondly, by the fact that when he comes to exercise those powers it is only for the purpose of consideration and advice that he can exercise them.
I think this is an exceedingly important Amendment. I feel unconvinced by the arguments of the Solicitor-General, because the dangerous part of the limiting words, "for the purposes aforesaid to institute and conduct such inquiries, prepare such schemes, and make such recommendations as he thinks fit," are the words "institute and conduct inquiries." It is all very fine for the Solicitor-General to draw such a beautiful picture as to the limitations upon the power, but the fact is, and there is no use shutting our eyes to it, that the people of this country are getting extremely restive, annoyed, and exasperated by the enormous powers of Government officials under the various Orders in Council which have been issued. This country is crawling with Government officials, and all men engaged in trying to conduct industry in this country are harassed and tormented by the forms they have to fill and the applications they have to make. It is becoming worse and worse every day, and I believe myself it has gone much beyond the necessities of the case. There is no doubt that the Government will find, and are beginning to find, that there is a great reaction going on against the system to which the English people are wholly unaccustomed of being harassed and guided in everything they do every day of their lives in attending to their own business. This is a part of the Clause to which I take great exception. There is to be the power by Order in Council to transfer to this Minister any authority conferred by Statute or otherwise and held by any Government Department or authority. I take exception absolutely to the words "or authority." It is bad enough under the present system to allow the Government power to transfer to this new kind of super-authority power exercised by Government Departments, but to add to that "or authority" is very vague. It might mean the Government authority of the police, and it does mean that under Order in Council, behind the back of the House of Commons and without any opportunity for the House of Commons to express its opinion, any power at all can be conferred upon this Ministry. He cannot, of course, be allowed to behead people or put them in gaol, but he is allowed to pry into their private affairs and to go to any man and see the records of his private business or inquire into the methods of conducting his business or his private affairs, and he can call on the individual to furnish him with an elaborate return under pain of penalty. Those are very serious powers. As I have pointed out, the people are now harassed by similar powers, and I submit that we should not continue that system under this Bill.
I should like to emphasise the point to which my hon. Friend opposite has just referred. If one looks at the beginning of Clause 2 one would think that the Minister of Reconstruction has only to advise. But I am, like the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, entirely unconvinced by the arguments of the Solicitor-General, because, if you look further, you will see that the Clause says, in addition to advising, the Minister "shall, for the purposes aforesaid, have such powers and duties of any Government Department or authority, whether conferred by Statute or otherwise …" That not only gives powers to the Minister of Reconstruction to take action, but to take very drastic action. While we might have allowed certain actions to be taken during the War under Orders in Council or because of the Defence of the Realm Act, owing to exigencies and because it has been necessary to give these powers, I would remind the House that this Bill is to be carried into effect after the termination of the War when we have resumed our normal course. Therefore, as the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City said in proposing this Amendment, this is an abdication of the powers of the House of Commons. If we pass this we are signing way our rights. This Bill is not a War measure now necessary for the conduct of the War, nor is it necessary for us to give up our rights, as we are asked to do under this Bill, for two years.
We seem to be making very slow progress with this Bill, and I believe the Government are mainly responsible for it. However reasonable the Amendment may be, we are met in a most hard and unsympathetic way. That is not the way for the Government to get their Bill through. The arguments used by the Solicitor-General were of a most extraordinary character. He suggested that because the powers under the Bill are small and limited in character, being of an advisory character, we ought therefore not to complain of the most extraordinary and wide authority being given for the purpose of carrying out these small duties. That was really his argument. These are the words against which my right hon. Friend protests, "Have such powers and duties of any Government Department or authority." These are the powers of the police, of the secret police, of the Army and Navy, of every Government Department—all may be put at the disposal of this Minister, whose duties are so vague that the Government only succeeded in defeating a recent Amendment by a majority of twenty-five of their own paid men. If the Government want to get this Bill they ought to adopt a more reasonable spirit, and if the whole of an Amendment cannot be accepted they ought to make some proposal in regard to the matter. Orders in Council may be put forward or withdrawn. Anything may be done. The purpose of this Amendment is to ask that these things should not be done except by Statute. I do think it is a very reasonable and moderate Amendment, and I appeal to my right hon. Friend—and surely we have been long enough over the wretched Bill; I am quite tired of it—to tell us if he will meet us, and what further Amendments he can make, so that we may make some progress.
The Solicitor-General tried to minimise the effect of the Clause, which, he said, was all governed by the words, "for the purposes aforesaid," and that "for the purposes aforesaid" practically all that the Minister of Reconstruction would do would be to consider and advise upon the problems. First of all, I would say the problems are unlimited. There may be five thousand problems which he may consider it his duty to consider and advise upon. But it does not stop there, because it goes on to say, "And for the purposes aforesaid to institute and conduct such inquiries, prepare such schemes." Now, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon) said, the institution of inquiries means the power of going to any man, or any firm, or any institution and requiring them to produce any part of their books, to show all their private affairs, and to give the Minister any particulars that he may choose to demand, and then he has to conduct such inquiries. Now the words, "conduct such inquiries," mean that he is going to have more officials with him, and those officials will be paid. Consequently this Bill provides for a very large increase in the number of officials, which, in my humble opinion—and I believe in the opinion of this House and of the country—there are a great deal too many. Not only is he to institute and conduct such inquiries, but he is to prepare schemes. How much money may be spent upon the preparation of schemes? It is an appalling prospect. There is no limit at all. I should like to ask—Are there any Secret Committees going on now about which the House knows nothing? There was a question asked in this House about a Committee of which Lord Haldane is supposed to be Chairman, and there was very insufficient information given. So far as I can gather—I did not hear it myself, but from what I read—it is pretty evident there is such a Committee presided over by Lord Haldane. Under this you are to give him power to make any inquiries and spend as much money as he likes. I believe there are—and I do not say this without knowledge—other Committees about which the House does not know anything, and I say this ought not to be done. If there are schemes which are necessary, and there may be—I do not say there are not—the proper course for the Government is to tell the House what they wish to do, take the House into their confidence, and ask them to pass a short Bill. How many times during the last three years have we passed a Bill through all stages in one day? Has the House shown any wish to hamper the Government when a reasonable request has been put to them? As a matter of fact, they have been much too willing, and, like a willing horse, they have been ridden in that way, and consequently I am afraid they are getting a little bit tired. I think it is evident the Government do not choose to accept this Amendment, and I shall certainly divide upon it, because I think it is an essential Amendment if you are to preserve the authority of this House, which, after all, we were all returned to do.
There is not the least desire on our part to be unreasonable, and I think I can show the Committee in a very few moments that really we are asking nothing unreasonable at all. The words we have inserted in this Clause, and which this Amendment seeks to strike out, are contained in the Act which the House of Commons passed a short time ago setting up new Ministries. These very words are in the Section relating to the Ministry of Labour and the Food Controller, and in those two cases there are added words which confer upon them such further powers as may be conferred upon them by Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act. We have omitted in this Bill the latter and wider words, because we do not wish to ask the House to confer upon the Minister of Reconstruction anything but existing powers. We confine ourselves to asking the House for leave to confer upon the Minister of Reconstruction powers already existing and vested in some other authority.
I do not wish to contradict such a great authority, but the words are these: "Have such powers and duties of any Government Department or authority, whether conferred by Statute or otherwise." That means, as I understand it, that we confer by Statute on any Government Department or authority or otherwise, and therefore an Order in Council might confer powers upon any other Government Department or authority.
My right hon. Friend is mistaken. The only effect is that if by Statute or otherwise—that is, by common law—some existing Government Department or authority has a legal power we may by Order in Council confer concurrent powers upon the Minister of Munitions. Therefore it does not amount to much. The Amendment really makes the Bill of no use at all. It simply proposes to provide that this Minister shall have such powers as may be conferred by Statute. On this point I need not repeat what my hon. and learned Friend said that these powers can only be conferred for reconstruction purposes. It is only where there-is a real reconstruction purpose that you take power to give that authority.
I do not know enough about the law to contradict what the Home Secretary has said. I suggest to him to leave out all words after "authority" and insert "which have been conferred by Statute." That would allow the new Minister to have any powers which have been conferred by Statute on any Government Department or authority. It would limit it to what the right hon. Gentleman says is the intention of the Clause. If the Home Secretary will accept it, I will withdraw my Amendment in order to substitute it.
I certainly will not say "No" to it to-day. My only difficulty is that it would exclude common law powers. I should not like to say, without consideration, whether they are worth keeping in this particular Clause, but if my right hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment I will consider whether we cannot accept his suggestion.
There is this difficulty in procedure: The Government so far have successfully resisted every Amendment, and, according to the Standing Orders, there will be no Report stage.
I said when discussing a previous Amendment that I was willing to accept a Clause which comes later with a slight modification, so that there must be a Report stage.
I am very pleased to accept the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Am I in order in asking whether the Report stage is to be taken to-night?
No!
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words, "All schemes prepared and recommendations made by the Minister of Reconstruction shall be included in a Report which he shall in each year present to Parliament."
I attach great importance to this Amendment as meeting an obvious defect in the Bill and a point of criticism made in the discussion on the Second Reading. These schemes of reconstruction will be formed —indeed they have already been taken in hand, and perhaps elaborated to a high degree—and yet we have no assurance that they will be put before the public or that the public will be acquainted with them in any way until they come to be actually brought into operation. My proposal meets that by securing that there shall be an annual report presented to Parliament by the Minister of Reconstruction, and I sincerely hope that either this Sub-section will be accepted by the Government or that the point will be met in some other way.
I have great difficulty in accepting this Amendment for two reasons. One is that the Ministry of Reconstruction may obtain information and prepare schemes which it might not be desirable to disclose to the public. The second is there might be a recommendation, say, to the Board of Trade which that Department might not adopt, or which might not be approved by the Cabinet, and it would become an abortive scheme. If a scheme is adopted, of course it will appear either in the Report of another Department or in a Bill prepared by that Department, and it will then be considered by Parliament. It would be rather a mistake to direct the advisory authority to publish schemes, some of which might not take shape. I know that the Minister designate is very anxious to give all possible information to the House. No doubt he will have an opportunity from time to time of answering questions or giving information in Debate. From what he tells me he is exceedingly anxious to-do so whenever he can. I hope he will not be asked to make a report on schemes which are not adopted.
One of the strongest objections expressed during the Second Reading was the objection to the secrecy which seems to surround the proceedings of this Ministry of Reconstruction. I admit that the right hon. Gentleman is now more reasonable, perhaps because of the strong appeal I made to him. We do not want to be unreasonable. The House is greatly troubled because it cannot get information as to the doings of the many Committees which now exist. There are no matters now on foot that excite more interest than the proposals for reconstruction. The right hon. Gentleman says that some of the items might be published, but that it might not be desirable to publish others which are not to be adopted. There might well be information which could be given with regard to schemes which are prepared, completed, and adopted. The right hon. Gentleman said he would ask questions and get answers. We are sometimes not very satisfied with the answers we get to questions. The rule which obtains in many Departments of issuing a Report might well be followed. I am glad to see that the Home Secretary did not exclude the possibility of some Amendments being accepted.
This Amendment raises a very important point. Every Minister who draws a salary should be answerable to Parliament and under the control of Parliament. In what way will this Minister be controlled by this House, unless his proceedings are brought into the open and the House is able to criticise and express an opinion upon them? One great difficulty in connection with the Bill is that a Minister is to be appointed to work in secret and in the dark, and that he is to make inquiries, to formulate schemes, and to advise. But this House will have no knowledge of what his advice is or what schemes he has prepared. We shall have no knowledge whether he is doing his duty in an efficient and satisfactory manner. The whole of the information is to be concealed and kept from the House, and I therefore support the Amendment in principle, if not the actual form of the proposal. I think the House of Commons would be very ill-advised if it consented that this Minister should work in secret, that his proceedings should never be brought to the light of day, that his Reports should be bandied about between one Government Department and another and submitted to the Cabinet and either accepted or rejected as the Cabinet may think fit. If they are accepted by the Cabinet they become the Cabinet policy and are lost in the general policy of the Government, and if they are rejected it is to be presumed that the duties of the office have not been satisfactorily performed. The House ought to have cognisance of these matters. I am against the proposed secrecy of the proceedings of this Ministry, and I hope the hon. Member will carry his Amendment to a Division in the absence of some indication that the Government will put forward an alternative proposal which will bring the proceedings of this Ministry within the knowledge of this House and enable it to be criticised annually upon the Estimates.
Surely the Home Secretary—he ought to know his office better than I do—could make a better defence than he has made. Surely the Vote for the Ministers salary will have to come before the House and he will have to state what he has done. If he will give an assurance to that effect that must meet my hon. Friend's point. Until we get such an assurance we are bound to go on with the Amendment.
I thought I had said that. I quite agree that the Department, like others, will have to have its salary passed every year. There must be an Estimate, which, of course, may be discussed in the House.
Amendment negatived.
The next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for South Kerry—[dealing with Ireland]—is in the wrong place.
Where ought it to come?
It ought to come as a new Clause.
I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (2).
I do not think these words are necessary. I understand that it is possible that the Amendment I proposed a short time ago in its altered form may be accepted on the Report stage. That would give power to His Majesty by Order in Council to authorise the transfer of any of the powers which have been conferred by Statute on any Government Department or authority, and I really do not see why these words are necessary. It is much simpler to have the words out. I see no object in them, unless it is to extend the powers.
11.0 P.M.
An Order in Council may have been made which goes too far. In that case we may desire to vary it by striking out the excessive words, or to remodel it altogether. It is very desirable that by plain words the Statute should enable that to be done.
I do not attach much importance to the Amendment, and as the right hon. Gentleman is going to accept an Amendment on the Report stage tomorrow I beg leave to withdraw this.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
Is it proposed to apply this reconstruction scheme to Ireland? As the Bill stands, it applies to Ireland, and I want to know whether we are to be reconstructed. In many respects there is no part of the United Kingdom which requires more reconstruction. If we are to be reconstructed, and if our education system is to be reconstructed we are certainly entitled to demand that we have a Reconstruction Minister in Dublin who knows something about the matter. The new Minister of Reconstruction, for whom I have most profound respect, and in whose capacity I have very great belief, will be given ah almost impossible task. Seeing that the Amendment of the hon. Member for North Kerry has been ruled out here, I should like to know what are the views of the Home Secretary in regard to Ireland.
It would be a very great injustice to Ireland not to be included in the Bill. Any recommendation will, of course, have to be made through the Irish authorities. If they approve of the recommendations they will have effect.
One point which has been raised in regard to Ireland raises an analogous point in regard to Scotland. A number of questions have been put in the House with reference to Reconstruction Committees which are already in existence. We have endeavoured from time to time to ascertain who represented Scotland upon the Reconstruction Committees and whether anybody familiar with Scottish conditions and having knowledge and experience of Scottish local government, Scottish education, and other Scottish problems are on the Reconstruction Committee. The Leader of the House informed us that Lord Balfour of Burleigh was a member of the Reconstruction Committee. That is true. He had been dealing with the trade relations of the Empire, and as Chairman of one Sub-committee, has already reported; but Lord Balfour of Burleigh has not been used for anything in relation to Scotland, with respect to which he is one of the best authorities to whom one could go. We were told by the Leader of the House that the other persons who were to speak for Scotland on this reconstruction business were Mr. Philip Kerr and Sir J. Stevenson.
After a great deal of research I have discovered that Mr. Philip Kerr is secreted somewhere in the Garden Suburb —that he was unearthed in the first instance in connection with an academic periodical called the "Round Table." Neither of those experiences qualify him to represent Scotland on the Reconstruction Committee; indeed, he pronounces his name in a way which would not be recognised in Scotland. Instead of that, the Leader of the House had the effrontery to put him forward as a gentleman who was in a position by his experience and by his training to deal with Scottish problems in relation to reconstruction. The other gentleman is even more interesting. He has attained his present position, I understand, by purveying an article with a world-wide reputation called "Black and White." [An HON. MEMBER: "Johnny Walker!"] I am informed that it is not "Black and White," but that it is "still going strong." Undoubtedly he has some knowledge of the Scottish spirit as we knew it in the past, but by an Order of the present Government the Scottish spirit is now diluted 50 per cent. of the old-time standard. That is not the kind of reconstruction that we want in Scotland, and the fact that he has submitted to a suggestion of that kind in regard to a matter of such national importance, a matter, indeed, which has been associated with Scotland more closely than anything else by the imperishable verse of the national poet, does not fit him for dealing with the problems of reconstruction in Scotland. There is nobody else. The head of the Ministry is to be the late Minister of Munitions, who obviously has no experience of Scotland. We are not going to question his qualifications to reconstruct England, for example, and the East End of London, and the medical profession, and the Insurance Act, and anything else that may be treated by means of basic slag; but he has absolutely no knowledge of Scottish problems. I do not know whether the intention is to give an opportunity for Scottish talent in the new office that is to be added to the new Ministry, namely, the new Under-Secretaryship. I have no doubt that there are some of our Scottish colleagues who might fill that office with very great satisfaction to themselves and advantage to their country. Some who are already Parliamentary Private Secretaries and who from time to time are on the bench behind Ministers might have ambitions in that direction, but I think that until we know that one of those capable Gentlemen is going to secure this important post I do not think we ought to allow this Clause to be added to the Bill. I am sure that other gentlemen who have no ambitions for a post in this Ministry will support this plea. We certainly think that some representation of Scotland should either be upon the Committees which are already investigating or on the permanent staff of the Ministry. Up to the present there is no indication that the problems of Scotland have ever entered into the minds of the Ministry at all, and I think we must require an assurance from the Home Secretary that the distinct problems of Scotland are going to be dealt with. After all, these problems are Very different from those of England—our industrial problems are quite different. We have great problems associated with the highland area. The land problem—
On that point the hon. Member must complete his remarks. They are not really very relevant to this Clause at all. Such remarks as he has made about the staff obviously come under Clause 3. The hon. Member's remarks are quite out of order, and I must really ask him to discontinue that line of argument.
I am quite prepared to do that. I find that this Clause deals with the powers and duties of the Minister of Reconstruction, and, after giving the best attention I can to the terms of the Clause as it stands, I find that, first of all, it deals in very general terms with what the duties of the Minister are to be. I think it is a matter of extreme importance that these duties should have been much more specifically described, and that there should have been some indication what this new Ministry was to have, in view of the special conditions which prevailed in the various parts of the United Kingdom. I find every reference to that absent, and I hope, in spite of the absence of any reference to these things, that, nevertheless, the Ministry, when it does come into existence, will show that it realises the importance of these problems, as well as the general problems which affect every part of the United Kingdom, and that the specific problems which arise from the variety of local conditions will not be lost sight of, and that means will be taken to obtain the views and the representation of the interests of all parts of the country.
The hon. Member who has just sat down has raised a point of extraordinary importance to those of us who reside north of the Tweed. Those few Scottish Members who have waited so long to put this point were reluctant to take part in the previous discussions on the Bill, but we regard this as so important that unless we get some kind of assurance from the Government we must divide against the Clause. After the appeal which has been made to us by the Leader of this House we have no desire to obstruct this Bill or delay its progress. After all, it cannot be levelled against my hon. Friend or myself that we have made any speeches at all on this Bill. We have abstained in order to put this point with greater force.
On Second Reading.
The hon. Member for North Somersetshire says something about Second Reading. In that Debate we took the somewhat general ground of trying to save the whole country from the imposition of this Bill, but being unable to save the whole country, we want to protect the most progressive part against the inroad which is made on its individual activity and experience by this particular Clause. It says that the "Minister of Reconstruction is to consider and advise upon problems," not which will arise, but which "may arise." If, Mr. Maclean, you will look at those words, take them in their strict literal sense, they are the most nebulous words you could possibly have in any Clause in any Act of Parliament. If we knew that the Minister of Reconstruction was going to deal with specific problems that were going to arise or had arisen, and that therefore demanded attention, we could understand why he is going to be appointed; but this Clause suggests that he is not only to deal with problems which are tangible at present, but with problems which nobody else but this Bill thinks are going to arise. What are some of those problems? We have been told that after the War we are to have an Imperial Conference, and that out of that Imperial Conference we are to have local self-government of the various units of the United Kingdom. What share of the Ministry of Reconstruction shall we get in Scotland in those circumstances? Obviously Scotland does not want to have anything to do with an English Minister who knows nothing at all about Scottish problems, who has not even got the atmosphere of Scottish problems, and whose only knowledge of the great product which my hon. Friend dilated upon in his speech has been the requisitioning of it in the form of spirit used for the making of high explosives. I do think that you rather misinterpreted the idea which was being elaborated by my hon. Friend. Now, take a problem which is not one which may arise in Scotland, but which exists at the present moment. You yourself are a Scottish Member, and you know what has been done with regard to fisheries in Scotland. You know that fishing is one of the great industries in Scotland, and you also know that one of the great fights that you have made in Scotland was for free fishing in the rivers of Scotland. Now, suppose that a problem may arise in the future that that is to be prohibited, are we, after the fight that you so nobly made in Scotland, to have that interfered with by a Minister of Reconstruction directed by this Bill? I come back to a larger industry, the herring industry in Scotland, which means the revivification of all the villages from Loch Fyne, on the West coast, round to Berwick-on-Tweed, on the East. We all know the amount of Scottish capital—
The hon. Member must confine his remarks to the Clause with which we are dealing.
Take one of the matters which are within the words of the Clause, "or may arise." There is a Housing Commission sitting in Scotland. That Commission is inquiring into the conditions of housing which obtain in Scotland at the present moment. It has been existing now for nearly five years.
On the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for South Kerry, I indicated that the question of Ireland in its relation to this Bill might be raised on the new Clause, and there are also some general remarks to be made by the hon. Member for East Mayo in reply to the Home Secretary. It is on those lines only that the relation of Scotland to this Bill can arise. If the hon. Member wishes to deal in detail with the question of Scotland he can do so on the new Clause, in connection with which he can bring that topic in more particularly. I have already asked the hon. Member to try to be more relevant in his remarks, and he must take notice of the warning.
I do not require warning. I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for what he has pointed out. What I want to establish is the right to see exactly where Scotland comes in, and I am very glad that you, Sir, in the position of Deputy-Chairman, have given me a hint how to introduce what concerns you, Sir, and other Members of the House.
I must ask the hon. Gentleman not to repeat his references to me as a Scottish Member, or to views I may or may not have as to the merits or demerits of the Bill. As Deputy-Chairman I am not concerned with them, as the hon. Member well knows.
I apologise for suggesting for one moment your deciding on any Scottish question while you are in the Chair. I will address myself most strictly to the conditions set out in this Clause, which suggests that the Minister of Reconstruction shall have "for the purpose aforesaid such powers and duties of any Government Department or authority which are conferred by Statute or otherwise," then the "otherwise" is set out. Before this is put to the Vote I want to protest most emphatically against any fresh Ministry having a roving commission over all the Departments of the State. If you were appointing a super-Minister with super-abilities, obviously you would provide him with a super-salary. This Minister is to be paid £2,000, the price of a second or third-class man, not a first-class Cabinet Minister, whose price is £5,000. It seems to me, therefore, that if you are going to give a Minister of this kind power to rove over every Department, to interrupt the work of every Department, you are introducing a bone of contention into the smooth working of Government administration in this country. We have been told by the Local Government Board that large provisions have already been made to provide public loans for the purpose of housing all over the country. I still regard the President of the Local Government Board as lacking in his public duty if he had not the vision to see that after the War such provision is required to be made; and I ask myself, and I want to ask the House, whether the new Minister of Reconstruction is going to lift that out of the hands of the President of the Local Government Board. The moment he does that, if he ever attempts to do it, you get all the cognate questions relating to it: health, sanitation, the purchase of land, large drainage schemes, and similar problems, and the difficulty that faces you is that instead of simplifying government you are making it more complex by the creation of a Minister who is given these powers. That is the kind of task that ought to be in the hands of the Prime Minister. It ought to be the duty of the Prime Minister to see after consultation with his colleagues in the Cabinet that certain policies are required to fit after-war problems, and to call from his Ministers those provisions which suggest themselves for dealing with them. If Ministers feel that they are incompetent to deal with questions which are in their own Departments, and if the Ministry of Reconstruction is to do all those things, then put all the powers of the Department into the hands of that new Department. What I have said makes one feel that this Clause should not go through without a Division. The people must have somebody in this House to protest against the waste of money in creating these new appointments. I am surprised at the absence of all the "Ginger" groups, and that we have had no criticism from any one of them about the diffusion of the various energies of Ministers and against one super-Minister being put over those Departments in order to add confusion to the confusion that already exists. For those reasons I think we ought to divide against this Clause, which puts into the hands of a Minister most extraordinary and exceptional powers, and powers which no single individual could possibly in any practical way carry out.
Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 81; Noes, 8.
Division No. 88.] AYES. [11.29 p.m. Adamson, William Greig, Colonel James William Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Guest, Capt. Hon. F. E. (Dorset, E.) Robinson, Sidney Archdale, Lt. Edward M. Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Samuels, Arthur W. Baird, John Lawrence Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds) Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Baldwin, Stanley Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.) Scott, A. MacCallum (Bridgeton) Beck, Arthur Cecil Haslam, Lewis Shaw, Hon. Alexander Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith- Hewart, Sir Gordon Sherwell, Arthur James Brace, Rt. Hon. William Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Shortt, Edward Bridgeman, William Clive Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Liverpool) Brunner, John F. L. Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Jones, Wm. S. Glyn- (Stepney) Spear, Sir John Ward Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Kellaway, Frederick George Stewart, Gershom Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central) Clive, Captain Percy Archer Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Talbot, Lord E. Clough, William Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Walsh Stephen (Lancashire, Ince) Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Lindsay, William Arthur Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) Coats, Sir Stuart (Wimbledon) Locker-Lampson. G. (Salisbury) Watson, John B. (Stockton) Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Millar, James Duncan Whitty, Patrick Joseph Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Williams, Aneurin (Durham) Cowan, Sir William Henry Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcester, N.) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Parker, James (Halifax) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Green) Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Pearce, Sir Robert (Leek) Winfrey, Sir R. Edge, Capt. William Pease, Rt. Hon. H. P. (Darlington) Wolmer, Viscount Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Pryce-Jones, Col. E. Worthington Evans, Sir L. Finney, Samuel Raffan, Peter Wilson Fisher, Rt. Hon. Wm. Hayes (Fulham) Rea, Walter Russell TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Colonel Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arfon) Craig and Mr. Pratt.
NOES. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. King, Joseph Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Gretton, John Mason, David M. (Coventry) Hunt, Major Rowland Nuttall, Harry TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Kilbride, Denis Pringle and Mr. Hogge.
CLAUSE 3.—(Staff, Remuneration and Expenses.)
(1) The Minister of Reconstruction may appoint such secretaries, officers, and servants as the Minister may, with the sanction of the Treasury, determine.
(2) There shall be paid, out of moneys provided by Parliament, to the Minister of Reconstruction such annual salary not exceeding two thousand pounds, and to the secretaries, officers, and servants of the Ministry such salaries or remuneration as the Treasury may determine.
The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. KING: In Sub-section (2), after the word "remuneration" ["such salaries or remuneration"], to insert the words "not exceeding twenty thousand pounds."
I have already raised this question of placing a limit of expenditure upon this Bill, and it has been discussed. I should like to discuss it again, especially as I notice in the House many Members who were not present at the previous discussion, but I am so desirous of avoiding any appearance of obstruction that I do not intend to move this Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
This is a Clause for paying salaries, and raises an important matter. We do not know what the precise Ministry is, what is to be the number of officials, or what will be the number of clerks employed. We do not know what is meant by the term "officers" in this Clause, and I should like to ask if this Clause covers payment of secretaries for Sub-committees and for persons not necessarily on the staff but who will be employed in the same work by the Reconstruction Committee. These Sub-committees, I understand, are to be taken over, and it is necessary that we should know whether those salaries will be carried upon a Vote to be submitted to this House. I have asked repeated questions, and so have other Members, as to these Sub-committees, who these persons are, and what they are doing. We can get no information. We are told that it is confidential. All that we are told is that the terms of reference to these Sub-committees are treated as confidential, so that the names of the persons appointed to act on these Sub-committees are also confidential. We have expected some information this evening. We know that several ladies of extremely Socialistic proclivities are working on these Sub-committees. We know that Lord Haldane is chairman of one of these Sub-committees. That has never been denied, and we know it quite definitely. I am not suggesting that Lord Haldane or any chairman of any particular Sub-committee desires to draw a salary, but I should like to know whether it will be competent for the Minister to pay salaries for such purposes. Lord Haldane is employed upon a Sub-committee which has been appointed to advise as to reconstruction after the War. These matters are very important and we should have some information as to the staff to be employed, whether the Sub-committee is considered as part of the staff, whether salaries will be paid, and whether officials will be appointed and what number.
This proposal will only cover persons employed by the Minister of Reconstruction. No chairman of a Subcommittee can possibly be regarded as an officer or servant within this Clause. Existing Committees and Sub-committees do not necessarily become attached to the Ministry.
This is the Clause upon which you, Mr. Maclean, said I could raise the point about Scotland, but I wish first to make one or two relevant remarks with regard to what is proposed here.
The hon. Member misunderstood me. I said that the question of Scotland could be raised on the new Clause, and Scottish questions cannot be discussed on this Clause.
I am sorry that I misunderstood you, and that my speech on the Scottish question is to be postponed. The Committee will understand that the Minister of Reconstruction is given power to appoint such secretaries, officers, and servants as the Minister may, with the sanction of the Treasury, determine. That raises the question of man-power, which the Government and other Departments are so much interested in at the present moment. Take, first of all, the question of salaries. Presumably that refers to the Parliamentary Secretaries of the Minister of Reconstruction. I understood, from the speeches made on this Bill from day to day, that the appointment of this Minister was for the purpose of co-ordinating work in which he would be assisted by other Departments. If, therefore, the work of the new Minister is simply co-ordination and the material which he had to co-ordinate is to be provided for him by the other Departments to which he will have access, I cannot for the life of me see why any Parliamentary Secretaries are required for this particular Ministry.
On a point of Order. I would like to ask if this discussion on the appointment of Parliamentary Secretaries is in the right place? No doubt this Clause gives power to appoint a permanent secretary or Civil servant, but surely it is on Clause 5, Subsection (3), that the question of Parliamentary Secretaries arises. Is that not the case?
I should have thought that this was the right place to raise it.
I was pointing out, before time was occupied by this point of Order, that the Minister was there for the purpose of co-ordination. At the present moment there are in existence a large number of Committees with Secretaries. For instance, I have in my pocket a letter addressed to me from the Committee of Reconstruction, from 6a, Dean's Yard, Westminster, S.W. 1, so that in this case they have not taken a hotel but a yard, in order to have sufficient elbow room to develop this Ministry of Reconstruction. I do not know how many Members of this House could tell us, first of all, how many Committees are in existence, or what these Committees are discussing. I should like to know, first of all, how many Secretaries of the various Committees which have already been established, and which are to be taken under the wing of the Minister of Reconstruction, are in receipt of salaries or honorariums, and what is the expense to the State. I know, as a matter of fact, that one very important Committee has had its conclusions delayed for four months, although the first recommendation in its Report was a matter of urgency, by having them submitted to one of those Reconstruction Committees, staffed by officials and a secretary, which probably are going to be taken over by the Minister of Reconstruction. I am certain that the feeling of the House is strictly against this multiplication of Parliamentary Secretaries, providing so many members of the Government, and thus securing it against all possibility of defeat. We have been told that the present Government consists of over eighty members.
Over ninety.
I said over eighty, and ninety is over eighty, which is a double quorum of this House, forty Members being necessary to keep a House. The members of the Government are so numerous that in order to distinguish them, I suggest that they be compelled to wear a brassard. If we are going to create a Minister, I object to giving the Government power to appoint any more Under-Secretaries. We have on the Front Bench at this moment Junior Lords of the Treasury who have more or less nothing to do in this House. Take the case of my hon. Friend the Scottish whip (Mr. Pratt). He has been absent in Scotland for the last five or ten days on work of national importance in a Scottish seaport. That is not the best work to which he can be put. I know his great abilities. I know the great constructive work he did on the greatest corporation in the world—the Glasgow Corporation. My hon. Friend came direct to this House with a great municipal experience behind him, and with a riper knowledge of all the problems which will arise under this scheme of reconstruction than is possessed by the right hon. Gentleman who it is suggested should take the office of Minister of Reconstruction. Why cannot he be given the post of Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Reconstruction? It would solve one of our difficulties with regard to Scotland, because if we knew that my hon. Friend the Junior Lord of the Treasury, who represents Scotland in this House, was in the Ministry, that he had his firm grip on the Ministry, and could impress his personality upon the Minister of Reconstruction and overshadow him, as we are quite certain he could, then we would be more content to allow the Government to have a Ministry of Reconstruction.
There is nothing against which I protest more strongly than the power which it is suggested should be taken by the Government to create not only a Secretary, mark you, but Secretaries. This Clause would permit the Prime Minister putting more than one Secretary to the Ministry of Reconstruction. If you judge by the increase in the population of the suburb attached to 10, Downing Street, you can easily see how another ambitious Minister, desiring to magnify his office—it would be perfectly right to magnify this office; it is the greatest office ever created in the world, because it is to consider and give advice on the reconstruction of this great Empire in the situation in which it finds itself after the War—would not be content with one Secretary. I cannot conceive any man who takes a proper view of his responsibility being content with one Secretary. The Clause goes on to suggest that the Minister may appoint officers and servants. I do not know what the phrase "officers and servants" means. Are officers servants, or are they a special type of official introduced for the first time? I presume they are civilians in all cases. Are they to be like chairmen or under-Ministers who are to be appointed as the heads of great Departments of investigation? It is recognised that not only will the Ministry of Reconstruction have a colossal task but that it is a task which must be sub-divided, and that there will be great chunks of investigation to be made into all matters concerning industry, canals, railways, agriculture, coal mines, and shipping. One can easily make a catalogue of all the things which must come into the head of any man interested in industry. To deal with those things you will be compelled to appoint a man who not only knows the industry, but who has the confidence of every man who is connected with that industry. I can conceive of a perfect uproar arising if you were to put a man like Mr. Robert Smilie to investigate the question of the nationalisation of coal mines in this country in the future. I can imagine the conflict in this House between all the interests concerned in regard to the choice of these officials. What really does "officers" mean? I do not know whether the Home Secretary can explain at once what the officers are. The Committee will see the enormous expense and the enormous secretariats that must be associated with these officers if my idea with regard to this work is the right one. I may be making a mistake. I may be conceiving the duties of these particular assistants of the Minister of Reconstruction in the wrong way. I should like the Home Secretary to tell us if the investigations are to be divided up in such a way that they will require the appointment of such a man at the head of each of them, and, if not, whether he can say at once that these are ordinary Civil servants who will occupy posts at the Ministry of Reconstruction, and, just as other Civil servants, take their usual luck in the way of promotion. I think we ought to understand that, and the reason I put it quite strongly and clearly is that the next type of staff is that of servants. I should be sorry to know that neither secretaries nor officers are to serve the Minister of Reconstruction. That introduces two serious bones of contention into the Ministry. I do not know whether the bones of contention have been introduced into the staff on account of the fact that the Minister is a person who has a particular knowledge of anatomy. That may or may not be. We want a clear definition from the Home Secretary as to the distinction between these members of the staff.
The Ministry of Reconstruction is cribbed, cabined, and confined by the Treasury. If its work is going to be done well it must be done regardless of expense That may be an argument against the financial resolution, but the Bill having been accepted in principle by the House, those of us who are against the Bill must try to make the scheme workable, and if it is to be made workable it is obvious that it must be made workable regardless of expense. If the Minister is to be given a chance he must not come to the House as so many Ministers do when they are asked to explain why a thing has not been done and give as a reason that the Treasury objects to the expenditure of the money. A grant must be made apart altogether from the Treasury, and that grant must be put into the Estimates from year to year. I predict that the grant must rise if the work is to succeed. However, as that point does not seem to appeal to the Committee so strongly as the others, I will ask the Home Secretary these questions: Is it the intention to provide a Parliamentary Under-Secretary? If so, will the appointment be confined to one Secretary? What is the distinction between officers and servants? Are the servants to be a regular crop of Junior Ministers of Reconstruction, who will be at the head of the various Committees of Investigation, and, if so, what power will they have? Will they be men who are giving their services voluntarily, or will they be paid men? Will they be men with any record of scientific investigation behind them? Because, after the experience of this Government in scientific organisation, it is obvious the men must have that amount of training if they are to succeed. The Committee is entitled to know these points before it comes to a decision on this very important and complex matter of remuneration and expense. Unless some explanation is given which shows that the scheme is practicable, and that it does not provide for the filling of that bench with more Under-Secretaries. I am afraid, even at this late hour, we must pursue this matter to the Division Lobbies.
12.0 M.
It is a little inconvenient that my hon. Friend has raised the question of a Parliamentary Undersecretary here, because I think it really more conveniently comes on Clause 5
I was taking the advice of the Chair.
The Chairman has ruled that it can be discussed here, and, as the question has been raised, it is far better that we should have the discussion now, and then on Sub-section (3) of Clause 6 we might take a vote in order to get rid of the question of the Parliamentary Undersecretary or that Sub-section when we arrive at it. The position is that under this Clause the Minister of Reconstruction might appoint a paid Under-Secretary, but unless you have the words of Sub- section (3) of Clause 5 in it is quite clear that that would be an office of profit under the Crown, and he would be debarred from sitting in this House under the Statute of Queen Anne. That is why you have to put the words in Sub-section (3) of Clause 5 in in order to allow this new paid Under-Secretary to sit in the House of Commons. Under the circumstances, I wish the Home Secretary would in this matter pay some homage to the principle of economy. It is a small matter, no doubt, but the Government has got into such a habit of appointing new Ministers that the only thing we can do is to resist wherever these new Ministers are appointed, unless a case is really made out. Although the case for a Minister of Reconstruction has been made out, I do not see what he wants with an Under-Secretary. The Government always appoints two Ministers when it wants one. On what principle? I can understand that an Under-Secretary may be useful if an important Department has to be represented in another place, but there is really no need to have these two Ministers always. Under the previous Act of 1916 it undoubtedly was the case that all the Ministries were staffed with two men. Except on the principle that they always want to appoint two salaries where one would do, I do not see any justification whatever. I have a list of the new Ministers whom they have appointed. It is a long list. There are twenty-three of them already. There are three at £5,000 a year, Ministers without portfolio; there are, I think, seven at £2,000 a year; there are eight at £1,200; and there are, I think, four Ministers who have been appointed without salary in addition. That is a long list already. We have had a close Division in which the Government had eighty-nine supporters—that is, the number of the Ministry at present. Now they want two more—ninety-one. I think the House can go so far as to give them ninety, but I really do not see the reason for giving them ninety-one. Fifty years ago the House of Commons, greatly daring, appointed four Under-Secretaries. Now we appoint them by showers. I think the Government is getting too great power over the House of Commons through these appointments. I think on that ground, and on the ground of economy, we have a right to protest against the undue expansion and creation of these new posts. I do not want to urge the question any further, but the Home Secretary told us in his opening statement that there was no intention to appoint an Under-Secretary at present. If he does not appoint him now at the beginning, will there be any need in the course of the next two years to appoint an Under-Secretary? I should have imagined at the start, when he was mapping out his work, he might have required such assistance as an Under-Secretary can give, but later on, when he has got into his work, when it is mapped out and running smoothly, I cannot see that the necessity of this case is at all likely to arise, and in the circumstances I should hope that when we arrive at Clause 5 the Home Secretary will be willing to strike out Sub-section (3). The result of that will be that the Minister of Reconstruction will be able to get all the experts he wants, and will be able to pay them such salaries as he chooses and the Treasury will sanction. At least we shall have taken one small step in the direction of economy, and of preventing this undue and unjustifiable multiplication of official posts.
I will answer the minor questions which have been raised first. With regard to the word "officer," I think that would cover officials like principal clerks and officials of that kind, who could not properly be called secretaries and would not like to be called servants. With regard to the status of the different employés of the Department, I think that should be settled entirely by the Minister, that he should appoint such officials as he thinks fit, subject to Treasury consent, and whether they were paid or unpaid would be a matter for arrangement. Perhaps I may say with regard to the present Committee of Reconstruction, that they have not a large staff and only a few rooms. The staff consists partly of gentlemen who have volunteered and partly of Civil servants who have been seconded from their Departments for the purpose of this work. The expenses of the present Committee, therefore, are quite small, and I hope to some extent that the precedent will be followed by the Minister when he forms his staff.
With regard to the question of the Parliamentary Secretary, of course I agree that the point does not really arise upon this Clause. It only authorises the appointment of secretaries, but none of them could sit in Parliament unless we passed Sub-section (3) of Clause 5. It does not, therefore, strictly arise here; but with regard to that point, may I say, as the matter is now being discussed, that, as I said on a previous occasion, the Minister of Reconstruction does not at present desire to ask for that Parliamentary Secretary and has no intention of appointing one now. At the same time, as he has said to me, the work may grow. It will grow, no doubt, and may be exceedingly onerous, and there may come a time when the Minister is so much engaged in his ministerial work— deputations, and matters of that kind— that on some days he may desire to be represented in this House or elsewhere by a Parliamentary Secretary. That being so, I ask that the words may remain in the Bill, and, as at present advised, I hope the Committee may assent to that when we come to the point. I say very distinctly, and by authority of the Minister himself and of others, that we do not intend at the present moment to appoint an official of this kind. I do not know whether this Government or a future Government may not desire at some other time to appoint such an official, and I should not like to shut out such an appointment unless the Committee thinks otherwise.
I regret that the right hon. Gentleman has not seen his way to go further in response to the arguments put forward by the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. C. Roberts). It seems to me that this Ministry is in a totally different position from a Minister with executive functions, and however strong the argument is for providing Under-Secretaries in a Ministry which has to perform real administrative duties, when you are dealing with a Ministry in the extraordinary position of only having to inquire, investigate, consider, and advise, the necessity for an Under-Secretary is absent altogether. The right hon. Gentleman foreshadowed that possibly another Government, which took the place of the present one, might desire to have a Parliamentary Secretary, but I think it would be the sincere prayer of every Member of this House that no Government which takes the place of the present will ever seek to appoint as many Ministers or Parliamentary Secretaries. The suggestion was that the Minister may be so busy experimenting, considering, and advising, that he would not be able to answer Parliamen- tary questions put to him; but that is a vista which even the most imaginative office can hardly conjure up. There are unemployed "Whips" who could easily give the answers. For the last ten days we have had a Whip replying for the important office of Secretary of State for India, and he did it very well, much better than the average Minister. Surely it is always possible to have on that bench a junior who is able to read. That is all that is required for the purpose. It is very rarely we have a Minister who is intelligent enough to give a good answer to a supplementary question; so why should we trouble about a specially intelligent understudy for the purpose of answering questions? I think that in the circumstances it will be absolutely necessary, when we come to Clause 5, Sub-section (3)—which I think is sufficiently important to have a larger House for the purpose of a Division—to divide on this question.
But there are other matters. It is a question of the staffing of Ministries, new and old, by Members of this House; it is not simply a matter of Parliamentary Under-Secretaries. We have had quite a new group of officials, hitherto unknown, bearing all sorts of outlandish titles, directors and controllers, attached to every Ministry, and I want to know whether it is the intention of the Government to have all sorts of Directors and Controllers attached to this Ministry, who may be Members of this House, and who may be available to save the Government in a critical Division in the small hours of the morning. Take the experience of the Ministry of National Service. We were told that there were to be only a Director and a Parliamentary Secretary, but the Ministry was not a fortnight old when a Member of this House blossomed forth as Director of Recruiting. Whether he recruited anything or not is another matter. There was to be a Food Controller and Secretary to the Department. First of all they desired to have two Secretaries, but under pressure in this House they finally decided there was to be only one Parliamentary Secretary. Having been limited to one Parliamentary Secretary, they immediately proceeded to appoint the hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. K. Jones) as Director of Food Economy. That illustrates the possibility of influencing Members of this House by giving them these more or less ornamental offices with high-sounding titles. We want to know that there are not to be Directors and Controllers and so forth appointed under this Clause — Director of Chemical Investigation, Director of the Iron and Steel Trade, Director of Trade Investigation, and so forth—so that this tottering Ministry may have the ranks of its supporters still further recruited and its inglorious days further prolonged. While Parliament is still not absolutely corrupted, we should insist upon an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill that this Clause is not going to be used for the purpose of recruiting the ranks of men who are more or less directly or indirectly attached to the Government. While we are on this we should at least ask for an estimate of what the staff of the Ministry is going to cost. A request was made by the hon. Member for Hereford in the early part of the day's sitting for an estimate of the cost of the whole charges in connection with the Department. I am not going to make such an ambitious request to the right hon. Gentleman. I am going to suggest that though it may be difficult for him to state what the investigations from year to year are going to cost we may at least have an estimate of the cost of the Department represented by the salaries of the Ministers and various secretaries, officers, and servants. Of course, if directors and controllers are appointed from this House they will not receive any salaries. I only refer to them from the point of view of the influence which the Government by these appointments may be able to exert upon them; but upon this question of money we should receive an estimate from the right hon. Gentleman of the cost of the salaries and wages which would be paid by the Department. These things are desirable before the House assents to this Clause.
I was much impressed by the case put forward by my hon. Friend with regard to Clause 5, Subsection (3), and I listened attentively to the reply of the right hon. Gentleman. I think that he really made a case against provision for a Parliamentary Secretary in this case. He said, in the first place, that the Government were agreed that such a secretary was not necessary in present conditions, and that that was the view of the Minister designated for the post. That is a weighty reason against making this provision. There is no present necessity for it. It is submitted that the necessity may perhaps arise under some future Minister, but we are told that this Department only occupies a few rooms in Deans Yard. Is it likely that a Department of that size will require to be represented in this way? The work may grow it is true, but however much it grows it is not of such a kind as will require representation in this House. The whole of the work is work of considering and advising. It is not executive work. Doubtless there will be a great deal of executive work following upon the work of this Department, but all that executive work, on which the majority of questions will arise, will be carried out by existing Departments which will have the full responsibility and will be fully represented in this House. I can conceive cases of Departments which ought to be more fully represented than they are at present. There is the Scottish Office, which, through one Minister, does the work of four different and distinct Departments in Scotland—
Of ten!
I am taking the four main branches—the Home Office, Local Government Board, Board of Agriculture, and Board of Education. All that manifold work—though it is small in scale yet it is great in detail—in Scotland is done by one Minister. There undoubtedly has arisen in recent years the necessity for a Parliamentary Secretary for the Scottish Office, but the provision made in this Bill with regard to this office does seem to me to be distinctly out of relation to the purposes of the Bill and out of relation to the Ministry, so far as we see it shaping itself before us, and out of relation to anything which that Ministry may become in future, so far as I can see. I would urge the Minister who is responsible to consider this point. It is undoubtedly creating a very uneasy feeling throughout the country to see the growth in the number of Ministers in this House. There is a feeling that we are drifting to some extent in this House from the constitutional theory of Government responsibility in this House, and that we are really having represented in this House a staff of permanent Civil servants. I submit that we should, so far as we can, with full consideration of efficiency and the representation of Departments in this House, keep in accord with the feelings of the country in this matter.
The hon. Member had better deal with that under Clause 5.
May I point out that your predecessor in the Chair said that that question should be raised here, and subsequently admitted that it could be raised also under Clause 5, Subsection (3), but in order to get one discussion it was suggested, and I thought that it was more or less agreed, that it was better to get the discussion finished up here and then take Sub-section (3) of Clause 5 practically without debate? May I say one word in answer to what the Home Secretary has said on that point? I am bound to say that I thought that his answer was amazingly thin. If he really thinks that the Minister of Reconstruction requires an Under-Secretary for the purpose of representing him occasionally in this House and answering questions, I have had my own experience on that point, and I can assure him that it does not require a salary of £1,200 a year to do that. Before I migrated to this side of the House I was constantly in the habit of taking questions for my right hon. Friend the Secretary for India. I had no connection with the office and knew nothing about it, and it would have been absolutely monstrous to have paid me a penny of salary for that slight additional work which I was glad to undertake for my right hon. Friend. I cannot conceive any reason for doing anything of the kind in the present case.
I do not confine it to answering Parliamentary questions. The Parliamentary Secretary often takes part in Debate.
The amount of debate which would arise on this matter is almost nothing, and his private secretary, if he wants some support, would be able to give him that support. I cannot see that for occasional appearances in Debate It is really necessary to pay a man £l,200 a year. That seems to be a perfect absurdity.
The proposal is that a Secretary shall be appointed in any event. Of course, he will have the ordinary duties of Secretary in the office of the Ministry, but unless we put in the Sub-section he could not appear in this House. It would make it impossible to appoint a Member of this House as Secretary in the office of the Ministry. That is the only difference.
That is the difference. That is the very point on which I wish to make a protest. Here is the Government trying to get another Minister—the ninety-first. At this rate we shall be all Ministers. There will be nobody left in the House who is not a Minister. We ought to protest very strongly. The Home Secretary himself said that the Under-Secretary would be useful in receiving deputations. There is nothing whatever in that. So far as that is concerned, the permanent head of the Ministry will do just as well and often a great deal better than the Parliamentary Minister, if anybody is required to take his place. I do hope that the Committee will support this appeal to the Home Secretary to stop what I think is becoming a real abuse, and an abuse which is being felt in the country, and I think independent Members of this House ought to protest against the way in which the Government is wasting money and multiplying these posts in a perfectly reckless manner.
I desire to join in the appeal to the Home Secretary to drop the reference to the Parliamentary Secretary, if he wishes to get the Bill this morning. I think one-tenth of the Members of the House are now in receipt of salaries. I may be rather peculiar in my views, but I think that when Members of Parliament are paid salaries they ought to render service to the Government without being paid as Parliamentary Secretaries. There is a strong feeling amongst the working men of the country against the creation of those numerous offices in connection with the Government. I wonder what the position of the Government will be if the Committee of National Expenditure recommend that certain work of this kind ought not to be paid for, and, if so, will the Government accept such a recommendation and dismiss some of these Ministers? I am certain that the Junior Lords of the Treasury might reply if the Minister could not be present, or that could be done by the Duchy of Lancaster, which is a sinecure office. If the right hon. Gentleman responds to the appeal which I make in the name of the working men of the country to withdraw this power of appointment of a paid Parliamentary Secretary, I am certain that such action on the part of the Government would be appreciated at a time when everybody should practice economy as far as they possibly can. The Government ought in this matter to set a good example to the people of the country and economise as far as they possibly can in the appointment of Ministers with salaries.
I will seriously consider the point before the Report stage. I am anxious to get the Committee stage tonight, and it is with that in view that I give that assurance.
After that suggestion I should like to withdraw my opposition on Sub-section (3) of Clause 5, but I will put down the Amendment for the Report stage, by which time the Home Secretary will perhaps have had time to deal with it.
I am sorry I cannot associate myself with withdrawing opposition to this proposal. I am not satisfied merely because the Minister in charge of the Bill says that he will consider this on Report, and I am surprised that my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln has been taken in by that Government device. We have had many promises from that Front Bench about considering matters on Report, and then on Report the Government have taken care to place themselves in a much more favourable position for carrying their view instead of that which the House wishes to see carried.
That is not true of me.
My right hon. Friend says that that is not true. If it were not for delaying the House I could give him chapter and verse.
I said it was not true of me.
I was not accusing my right hon. Friend; I was talking of the Government. More than once the Government have made promises of that sort, and nothing has come of them. One I remember was in connection with the Ministry of Pensions, and we had to appeal to them to disagree with the Lord's Amendments when the Bill was brought back to this House. The point at issue is not whether the Government are going to consider the matter on Report; the point is, are the Government going to give up the appointment of an under-secretary for this Ministry? It is not a question of whether they are going to consider the pros and cons before they come to the Report stage and compel the House to discuss the matter all over then. A case has been made out against the proposal to-night which I think is unanswerable. The Minister in charge of the Bill has treated the House frankly in suggesting the reasons for the appointment of the Minister of Reconstruction. He has pointed out emphatically that it is a Department for counsel and advice; it is a Department to co-ordinate the reconstructive work which is now being carried out by other Departments, but which for lack of a common vexus apparently does not get on as quickly and does not get as far forward as they desire.
Take the further point about the answering of questions. The Prime Minister does not attend the House of Commons; he has not an under-secretary to answer questions for him when he is not here. When he is not here he deputes that to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer answers the questions of the Prime Minister as well as the Prime Minister could possibly do himself—not only that, but he answers supplementary questions. Will my right hon. Friend make out a case for the provision of an under-secretary for the Minister of Reconstruction for such a purpose as answering questions in this House, when the Prime Minister himself can have his questions, which are much more important than those of any other Minister, answered without the expenditure of any money?
Then there is the point whether, supposing you do have this under-secretary, he should be in this House or in the other House, which nobody seems to have thought of up to the present moment. Clearly, if you are going to have an undersecretary the proper place for him is in the House of Lords, where he could keep the other House in touch with the policy of the Government. That is only fair to the House of Lords. It is done in the case of other large Departments like the War Office, the Under-Secretary of which is here, and the Secretary of State for War in the House of Lords. It is the same with other Departments. If, therefore, the policy is pursued of putting someone in the other place who can attend to questions which may be asked about this Department all the arguments with regard to a secretary being required to answer questions for the Minister in his absence fall to the ground. As to leaving it in the position that my right hon. Friend suggests, namely, that he should consider it on Report, I do not know whether we are to meet to-day in view of the fact that there is no Notice of Motion that can be given now that we should meet to-day.
There is a Notice of Motion on the Paper.
We will raise that point when it comes. I am only curious about it. The Motion on the Paper is that the House do sit "To-morrow." That would be Saturday. But if we are to meet again to-day, as the House knows, the Report stage will be taken, and my right hon. Friend wants us to get through the Committee stage now because he is busy himself later to-day. My right hon. Friend has informed the House that he wanted the Committee stage disposed of last night, and he wants it all the more disposed of to-day in order that he may get on to the Report stage when we meet again. Why cannot my right hon. Friend say now, in the early morning, what he proposes to say a few hours later in the day?
I said that before I committed myself I wanted to consult the right hon. Gentleman who is concerned.
That is an argument I cannot accept. Why should the person who is to hold this office be consulted? We do not know who it is. The office is not yet created, and we have not decided yet that the Member of this House who has been named for the office shall not have to seek re-election. That is a Clause of the Bill which has yet to be considered, and it seems to me absurd that a particular individual should be consulted as to whether he wants an Under-Secretary or not. The point surely is that this House has got to decide whether this new Minister of Reconstruction is to have a Secretary, and not that the person who is to be appointed should say whether he wants an Under-secretary. I protest strongly, after all the discussion we have had, and after every speech that has been made in the Debate has been against the proposal of the Government, that the Government should seek refuge in the old device of saying that they will consider the matter between now and the Report stage. That is a position which is taken up because the Government cannot carry their point in the House now. I, for one, protest against this extraordinary increase in the number of Ministers and against the waste of public money in providing salaries for them.
I hope the Home Secretary will give us a definite assurance with regard to this Under-Secretary. In all these questions of reconstruction the Minister must apply to the various Departments which already exist. If, for instance, there is any reconstruction with respect to demobilisation he must apply to the War Office. Therefore, any official of the War Office could reply to questions regarding demobilisation. The same thing applies to questions of reconstruction with which the other Departments are concerned. Therefore, as has been ably pointed out by many speakers, this Under-Secretaryship is quite unnecessary. This is a matter for the House of Commons to decide, and not one on which to consult the designate Minister. We have to decide whether, in the first place, this Bill is necessary, and then whether an Under-Secretary to the Minister is necessary. I do appeal again to the Home Secretary, in the interests of the Government and of this House, to give way on this point. There is unquestionably a great deal of suspicion and unrest as to the numberless offices which are being created, and insinuations of graft and so forth are freely thrown about outside by those who are not acquainted with all that is going on, and this sort of thing adds weight to the insinuations. There is really no case whatever. The Home Secretary has said the Government does not intend to appoint a secretary, then why put it in the Bill? If this Department should prove to be a successful one and become so efficient that the necessity should arise later for an Under-Secretary, it would be a very simple matter for whatever Government is then in power to make out a case and get the necessary powers. But there is no case now. The Government themselves admit there is no case, because they say they do not intend to appoint an Under-Secretary; therefore, I do not think the House ought to give them the power to appoint an Under-Secretary.
I should like to appeal to the Home Secretary to give way at once on this matter of the Under-Secretary. He has promised to let us know this day, in about twelve hours from now, at most. During the interval he has to go home, go to bed, get up in the morning, have his breakfast; then he has to come down to the House, look through the questions which will be on the Paper, and attend to various other duties; besides which, we do not want him to be quite devoid of relaxation and rest of a mental and physical character. Therefore, it is obvious that he has not the opportunity properly to consult anybody between now and then. After all, why should he consult the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hoxton, who we all know, he wants to have sitting beside him as Minister of Reconstruction? He has consulted the House. He has got the opinion of those hon. Members who have sat hours and hours patiently attending to the work of this Bill, and who are practically unanimous in saying "Let us have no Parliamentary Secretary in connection with this Ministry." If he cannot accept the practically unanimous opinion of the House, what is the good of his thinking he can get a better opinion by consulting the Minister-Designate of Reconstruction? If he were to give way upon this now, I know he would modify my feelings and make it in my mind more desirable to clear up this Committee stage as soon as possible.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 4.—( Style, Seal, and Proceedings of Minister of Reconstruction ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 5.—(Power for Minister and a Secretary to Sit in Parliament.)
(1) The office of Minister of Reconstruction shall not render the person holding it incapable of being elected to, or of voting in, the Commons House of Parliament, and shall be deemed to be an office included in Schedule H. of the Representation of the People Act, 1867; in Schedule H. of the Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1868; in Schedule E of the Representation of the People (Ireland) Act, 1868; and in Part I. of the Schedule of the Promissory Oaths Act, 1868.
(2) The person who is first appointed to be Minister of Reconstruction shall not by reason of such appointment, if a Member of the Commons House of Parliament, vacate his seat as such member.
(3) One of the Secretaries of the Ministry shall not by reason of his office be incapable of being elected to, or of voting in, the Commons House of Parliament.
I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (2).
We now approach a different subject, and I think a very important one. It is the question as to whether the first holder of this office should be relieved from the duty of seeking re-election. I am not going to assume any ignorance as to who this Minister is to be. We all know perfectly well this office has been created for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hoxton. In some ways he is a suitable person for it, and though generally I have very little confidence in this Government, and still less confidence in them individually than collectively, yet if anybody were to ask me to-morrow to go and join in a Parliamentary election campaign against the right hon. Member for Hoxton, I have such regard for him as one who is above the average Minister in common sense, application, industry, and achievements, that I would not go and oppose him, but I do want him to go and face the electors. Personally, I am very sorry the proposal is put in, because I think it casts a slight upon my right hon. Friend the Member for Hoxton. We have just had two elections, and a few minutes ago we had sitting on the Front Bench the right hon. Member for Dundee. He has been through a contested election only last week, and I am sure it has done him a great deal of good.
Cleared his mind.
And he looks in excellent health too! I am perfectly certain, when Ministers take office, it is a very good thing for them to go to the electorate. We have also the experience of the hon. Member for Chesterton (Mr. Montagu), now Secretary of State for India. He has gone through an election—not a contested election, but an election in which he delivered one or two speeches, and why should an exception be made in the case of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hoxton (Dr. Addison)? I do not see it. First of all, his constituency is very handy. I suppose a taxi-cab, or one of the high-powered motor cars which are now at the disposal of certain Ministers, and which no doubt would be placed at his disposal from the War Office pool, could take him from here to his constituency in half an hour. It is a small constituency, it is an easy one to get round; it is a constituency where he is very well known and where he knows the way about. He would come into touch with working men and working women, and get, I am sure, great ado from this sort of intercourse with the electors. I dare say I shall be told that we had the Pensions Ministry Bill with a similar Clause put in to relieve the Minister of Pensions, in the first instance, from having to undergo an election. Now there was a special reason in that case, because at that time the Minister-designate of Pensions was passing under a cloud— one of those temporary clouds, which all Members realise, when they become temporarily unpopular with a certain section of their electorate, and the right hon. Member for Blackfriars (Mr. Barnes) was told by people who knew that he would not get elected if he put up. There is no suspicion of that kind here. In the case of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hoxton, I believe no one has suggested that he is in any way a, man who would have to undergo a trying contest— probably he would have no contest at all, and he is under no disability. Why should he be relieved from what, I think, at this time, is the special and obvious duty upon Ministers—that they should submit themselves to their electors when they are appointed to high offices of State? I hope very much that this Sub-section (2) may be omitted, so that we may say that the Minister of Reconstruction had no special favour, and that he goes to his office, newly created for him, with the full sanction and approval of the electors.
I do not want to discuss the general question of the election of Ministers or whether it is an advantage that they should have to seek re-election. The Minister of Munitions (Mr. Churchill) had to spend a considerable time in the constituency which he represents and for which everybody knew he would be returned, and was returned by a large majority. Apart from the general question, I think there is a special reason why this Sub-section should be retained. It has long been the policy of Parliament, on the transfer of a Minister from one office to another, that he shall not be obliged to seek re-election, and in the Reform Act of 1867 the Schedule specifies nearly all the important offices of State, as they existed then, and provides that the transfer from one to another of these offices should not carry with it the obligation to seek re-election. That is the principle on which this Sub-section rests. It is a transfer from office to office, and in passing not only the Pensions Act, but the New Ministers Act of last year, we inserted similar provisions. The offices were inserted in Schedule H, and the same was true of another Statute— the Re-election of Ministers Act. I think it would be a public disadvantage if we said that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hoxton should submit himself to re-election and compel him to spend in his constituency time which would be well spent in carrying out his functions. I hope in the circumstances the Sub-section will be allowed to stand.
The reply which the right hon. Gentleman has just made seems to me to be inconclusive. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the experience of the Minister of Munitions, and he has indicated that in his opinion it was an extremely profitless task for that right hon. Gentleman to spend in his constituency the time which the exigencies of the by-election compelled him to spend there. I should like to know if the right hon. Gentleman has ascertained that that is the opinion of the Minister of Munitions. It is undoubtedly true that it caused him some inconvenience to make the two visits to Dundee which he made, but, I think, the right hon. Gentleman himself would be the first to indicate that his experience in meeting his constituents, the meetings which he held there, the touch which he was able to obtain with public feeling, were of the greatest value to him, not only as informing him of the state of public feeling, but also for the purpose of the peculiar functions which he has to discharge as Minister of Munitions. Earlier to-day the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House spoke in an airy way of public feeling. I am quite sure that if he consults the Minister of Munitions he will find that the right hon. Gentleman had a considerable revelation of what public feeling was by his experience in Dundee. He found that there were many questions agitating the mind of the country on which Members of this House, and members of the Government in particular, had no information at all. He learned a great deal of the misapprehensions which had been spread abroad owing to the unhappy statements of the Leader of the House regarding his own shipping profits. He found also a great deal of public feeling regarding the grievances of soldiers and their dependants. Above aril, he gathered an amount of information regarding labour unrest which no Commissions of Inquiry, however admirable and however well-informed the members of those Commissions might be, could communicate. In other words, he obtained first-hand information and not the secondhand information of investigators and the Press. I suggest that this is a very valuable experience which should be made available to other Ministers when they accept office. It was forced upon the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee. It is true he had an easy victory; in other circumstances it might not have been so easy. But, at all events, there is no reason why on this occasion the electors of Hoxton should not have an opportunity of expressing an opinion both of their Member's actions in the Ministry and of the position of the Ministry generally.
There is, first of all, the great importance of ascertaining whether this Ministry does generally retain the confidence of the country. That is a very open question. It is a matter which might be decided, if a good candidate came forward in Hoxton, in a way which might surprise Members of the House and members of the Government. Then there are also interesting questions of international relations. Some of them emerged in the course of debate last night, nominally concerned with the conduct of the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. A. Henderson) and his peculiar and suspicious association with the hon. Member for Leicester (Mr. Ramsay Macdonald); but involved in that question is the whole question of the policy of the Stockholm Conference. Why should not the electors of a constituency like Hoxton have an opportunity of expressing their opinion of the policy of the Government, so far as it has been revealed, in relation to this Stockholm Conference? I think it would be a very valuable thing. That is a matter which did not emerge during the Dundee contest. It is now a pressing question. It is one which is engaging the attention of the electors. I think that, in view of the importance of the Government's ascertaining how it stands with the electors in a popular, democratic constituency like Hoxton and of the advantage of ascertaining what the public feeling is regarding the Government's ambiguous policy on the Stockholm Conference, this opportunity of testing public feeling should not be lost. Several other Ministers have had to take the risk of a by-election. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, it is true, had to submit to a by-election, but in his case nobody thought it worth while to challenge a contest. It might be the same in the case of the right hon. Member for Hoxton. Why not let the electors have an opportunity? In the cases of the President of the Local Government Board, the Secretary of State for India, and the Minister of Munitions, there have been by-elections, but now you are creating a new Ministry—you are going to make a special exemption in favour of this particular right hon. Gentleman. I think in all the circumstances, in view of the difficulty of having an authentic expression of public opinion, that this opportunity should not be neglected, and if the hon. Member who has moved this Amendment decides to divide the Committee upon it, I shall be very happy to give him my support.
1.0 A.M.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider this matter. Apart from the public grounds that have just been urged by my hon. Friend and the principle involved, it seems to me that as here is a new Department there is more reason than ever why the Minister should submit himself for reelection. The country is entitled to express its view as to whether this is a good move on the part of the Government. The speeches that were heard yesterday and again to-day must have made the Government hesitate as to whether they are wise in proceeding in this Bill, and certainly I think the country ought to have an opportunity of expressing an opinion on an entirely new departure. It seems to me that there is no case for relieving this Minister or any other Minister—because the Clause provides that in the case of any Minister of Reconstruction, whoever he may be, it shall not be necessary to have an election —of this obligation.
There are certain features about this Sub-section to which I should like to draw attention. First of all, I am interested in seeing one reference in the Bill, because, if I remember rightly, I had a little conflict with the Leader of the House as to whether the right hon. Member for Hoxton was any longer in receipt of any other salary than that of a private Member. My right hon. Friend thought that he was, and I thought that he was not. The insertion of these words proves that I was right, and that he was wrongs and that is a certain source of satisfaction to me in looking at these words in the Bill. But I would like to draw the attention of the House to the insertion of the word "first" in this Clause. On the whole—I have considered the point once or twice; one changes one's mind, of course, on questions of this kind—I am in favour of not handicapping any Minister of the Crown by forcing him to a by-election if the change is often or if he is transferred from the position of a Member of the House and accepts office under the Crown. If that applied to all Ministers I could understand its being put to the House as a big question of policy on which the House could express a view one way or the other. But this proposal does not do that. This proposal only exempts this mythical person who is to be appointed Minister of Reconstruction. Everybody seems to be assuming that it is to be the right hon. Member for Hoxton, but I am willing—I was going to say "bet," being tempted to use the word by a reference earlier this afternoon, but I should like to venture the suggestion that if this Sub-section disappears and there is a prospect of a by-election, the right hon. Member for Hoxton will not get the opportunity of serving as Minister of Reconstruction. So that this word "first" is really a barbed wire fence inserted to protect the right hon. Member for Hoxton. Any other Member of this House who at any future time becomes Minister of Reconstruction, if he passes the position of a private Member to the position of Minister, will have to seek re-election, but not the right hon. Member for Hoxton. Surely that cannot be right.
I have been taunted by many of my right hon. Friends sitting on that Bench now that we should not legislate for special cases, but that we should legislate with a view to including the broad classes of the community. I object to that. I think the people of this country are entitled to be consulted with regard to the creation of a Ministry of Reconstruction. I should like to inform my right hon. Friends who are on the Front Bench now that what the people of this country want is not a Ministry of Reconstruction, but a Ministry of Resurrection. The people of this country want the chance to live again after being buried under the mass of Regulations that have been imposed upon them since this War broke out, and I invite the Government, if they have any courage—and I should never accuse the Home Secretary or the Leader of the House of a lack of courage—to go to the country and say, "We want to test this question. Whether or not, after peace is declared, and these problems may arise, we are going to subject you to still further regulations of one kind and another which may restrict your particular liberty." I see, Mr. Whitley, that you are looking as if I may be going beyond the point, and I should be glad to come back if I am wandering from it, but surely it is fair to put the point that the electors of this country have as much right to be consulted about this question of reconstruction as the House of Commons has, and if this is inserted it prevents the constituents of the particular Member who may be chosen for this post giving any decision upon the question of reconstruction. After all, supposing it is the constituency of Hoxton, are they not entitled to say that they do not want their present Member to take this post? That is, surely, a question they are entitled to discuss, and, as my hon. Friend (Mr. Pringle) pointed out, other men had had to subject themselves to a popular vote on a question of this kind. I certainly intend to go into the Lobby with my hon. Friend opposite the Member for North Somerset (Mr. King), in opposing this. We have the courage to go to the country. If my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House cares to dissolve Parliament any time he likes I shall be perfectly willing to contest the whole subject of the policy of this Government with my Constituents. Why should the Government be afraid, on their part, of taking these sample tests all over the country of feeling in the country? Is it because on this occasion the opportunity is in London, where the full force of criticism could be concentrated with ease against the policy of the Government? I hope my right hon. Friends in charge of this Bill will show the courage of their convictions, that they will take these words out, and will themselves come down into this particular constituency, wherever it is, and give an account of their stewardship to the public, instead of repeating it day by day to us in this House.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes. 45; Noes, 6.
Division No. 89.] AYES. [1.10 a.m. Archdale, Lt. Edward M. Beck, Arthur Cecil Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Baird, John Lawrence Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith- Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Baldwin, Stanley Brace, Rt. Hon. William Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Coats, Sir Stuart (Wimbledon) Jones, Wm. S. Glyn- (Stepney) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Robinson, Sidney Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Samuels, Arthur W. Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Lindsay, William Arthur Scott, A. MacCallum (Bridgeton) Edge, Capt. William Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Sherwell, Arthur James Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Talbot, Lord E. Fisher, Rt. Hon. Wm. Hayes (Fulham) Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Watson, John B. (Stockton) Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Parker, James (Halifax) Williams, Aneurin (Durham) Greig, Colonel James William Pease, Rt. Hon. H. P. (Darlington) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcester, N.) Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds) Pratt, John W. Winfrey, Sir R. Hewart, Sir Gordon Pryce-Jones, Col. E. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Rea, Walter Russell TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arfon) Guest and Mr. J. Hope.
NOES. Hogge, J. M. Pringle, William M. R. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Hunt, Major Rowland Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) King and Mr. D Mason. Kilbride, Denis Whitty, Patrick Joseph
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 6.—(Right of Certain Ministers to Sit in Parliament.)
Where, before the passing of this Act, a Member of His Majesty's Privy Council has been appointed to be a Minister of the Crown at a salary without any other office being assigned to him, he shall not by reason thereof be deemed to have been or to be incapable of being elected to or of voting in the Commons House of Parliament, and shall not, if at the time of his appointment he was a Member of that House, be deemed to have vacated his seat.
I do not think the Amendment of the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. C. Roberts)—[to add at the end the words "but no Ministers should in future be so appointed"]—quite reads The words are "so appointed."
It is described in the Clause. The words there are "appointed to be a Minister of the Crown at a salary without any other office."
The hon. Member means to prohibit Ministers being appointed without portfolio?
Yes.
This Clause does not give any authority for that.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
On this Motion I should have thought that, first of all, we ought to have had an explanation by one of the Law Officers of the Crown of the point which has been so much in dispute and so much in all our minds during the past few days. It came as a very considerable shock to most of us to find that in the speeches made upon the Second Reading by the Home Secretary it was very much in question whether or not any Ministers appointed in this particular way to these particular posts were entitled to sit in the House. This House has had considerable experience of Members transgressing the laws of the House. I remember in particular one Member who was fined a very considerable sum in the Courts of law as the result of an action brought by a common informer because he had unwittingly transgressed the law. This would apply, as far as I know, to the post which is now occupied by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, and the post which is occupied by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle. If the Law Officers of the Crown were not sure in their own minds with regard to the position of these two Members of the Cabinet I could understand why they put in this Clause. I could understand it if this Clause were put in to fortify the doubt that might exist in the minds of the Law Officers of the Crown whether either of these two Gentlemen could be assailed by the common informer. If they have no such doubt, then obviously this Clause is entirely unnecessary. That is the position in a nutshell with regard to the appearance of this Clause in the Bill. As this applies to two Members of the War Cabinet, I think one is entitled to ask at this stage of the proceedings for some authoritative statement from the Front Bench as to the duties which are now to be assigned to the Member for Dublin University. The Member for Dublin University is well known to Members of this House. He has run the whole gamut of Parliamentary experience both outside and inside the House. He has broken the law and he has kept the law. He has encouraged conspirators and reproved those of us who maintained the law. He has, as I said, run through the whole gamut of experience both inside and outside the House. When the Admiralty was requiring a firm and a strong man to take over the work at the Admiralty this Member was chosen for the post. Since he was chosen for the post things have not gone as they were expected to go. It was found that in spite of the fact that the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University was First Lord of the Admiralty German submarines still continued to sink British ships, that the officers of our ships did nothing more remarkable than they had done previously under the supervision of other First Lords of the Admiralty, and, as my hon. Friend reminds me, criticisms were even made that the Gentleman who preceded the Member for Dublin University had been fast asleep all the time he had been at the Admiralty.
I can see my right hon. Friend the Solicitor-General looking with an expression of some surprise. This is not a legal point, and I do not expect a reply from him upon it. I do not presume my right hon. Friend can give a statement with regard to policy, but there are other Members of the Cabinet present or in the precincts of the House who ought to give that statement. It is a most important point. To get back to the remarks I was making, a new member of the public has been chosen for whom a seat has been found in this House in order that he may become the First Lord of the Admiralty. I do not know whether that means the Member for Dublin University has been a failure as First Lord of the Admiralty. I do not know whether his removal from the Admiralty to the War Cabinet means that the Government has no confidence in the policy which he pursued at the Admiralty. That leads me to ask more particularly what work the Member for Dublin University is to take up in the War Cabinet. The War Cabinet is a mysterious institution. It was appointed, as we all remember, at the beginning of the War to look after the business of the War, and it was to consist of a small number of members of the Government; if I remember rightly, it was to consist of five members, and they were to sit all the time; they were to go down very early in the morning and sit down to the War as business men sit down to their letters in an office and concentrate entirely upon that particular object.
I do not think that can be discussed on this Clause.
Let us clear that up. This is to regularise a salary which may be said to a Minister without portfolio. Nobody in this House knows to what post this Minister has been sent; nobody knows the work that he is being asked to do. Suppose I want to know something with regard to his work in the War Cabinet, how can I address a question in this House to the hon. Member for Dublin University?
What kind of questions may I put to him, and what kind of answers is he to give to me? I respectully suggest that we are entitled to ask on this Clause what are the duties attaching to the salary which this Clause seeks to regularise, and why it was necessary to appoint an additional member to the War Cabinet. These are the two points, if you agree with me, Mr. Maclean, and I want to confine my attention to them. We want to know from someone in the Government what are the duties that are to be assigned to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson)? We know what the Prime Minister's duties are; we know what the duties of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Henderson) are— after we had a public discussion in the House we gathered them a little more closely—but we ought to know what quality was lacking in the War Cabinet that required the addition of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, and what duties he is en-engaged upon. Are his duties in the Cabinet legal duties? Does he supersede the Law Officers of the Crown by giving legal advice inside the War Cabinet which the Law Officers might give to other members of the Administration outside? Or is he there as representing any particular body of opinion outside the Cabinet, which is unrepresented now? There is only, as far as I remember, in the Coalition War Cabinet one Liberal, one and a half Labour, and the rest are Conservatives. I count the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, when he is there as the representative of Labour, and if he is not there you have in attendance the Minister of Pensions, but the only representative of one of the large sections and body of opinion in this House, on the War Cabinet, is the Prime Minister: all the others are of a different colour. That is the first question—I want to know the duties.
Secondly, I want to know why it was necessary to enlarge the War Cabinet. If there is one thing which strikes me more than another in connection with this War it is the failure of the Government to concentrate upon anything, to make up its mind and come to a quick decision. That can be done by limitation—it cannot be done by an increase of Members, and to slip a Clause like this, of seven lines in length, into a Bill, to regularise the position which has arisen in the War Cabinet, and to provide for a salary for a Member of the War Cabinet, is a roundabout and backdoor way of doing it. It is not fair to the House; it is not fair to the intelligence of this Government to rectify a position of that kind by a Clause which is slipped into another Bill. The Bill deals with the Ministry of Reconstruction. Does the fact that this Clause is inserted in the Bill mean that the addition of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University to the War Cabinet is a policy of reconstruction— because that is the only interpretation and the real interpretation of the Clause? This is a Bill for reconstruction, and the Clause which deals with the War Cabinet is in the Bill. Does it therefore mean a change in policy? Has the War Cabinet changed its policy? Has it gone over entirely to the Conservative section of this House? Are they in charge of the War? Or is it still a Coalition War Cabinet? You all see the kind of questions to which I want an answer. I do not know whether the Solicitor-General is prepared to deal with these questions, but I am perfectly certain that if he is not prepared to deal with them we may be led in the further discussion to report Progress in order that the Prime Minister may come to the House and reply on an important point of policy, because some of us are quite determined that we cannot allow this to pass until we know where we are. So many things have happened. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle slipped into the conference at Paris before we knew where we were. The right hon. Gentleman for Dublin University has slipped into the War Cabinet, and we do not know why. We do not know whether it was because he was a failure at the Admiralty or a success. If he was a failure at the Admiralty he is more likely to be a failure at the War Cabinet, and so retard success. If he was a success, then it is a pity he was ever removed—and if a success, he may be a valuable addition to the War Cabinet. But it is a change of policy, and I think the Government would be treating the House with respect if they now sent for the Prime Minister, who must have finished his day's work, and therefore be able to devote a little time to the House of Commons, in order that we may know what the policy of the Government is before we allow the Clause-to be passed.
I think it is due to the Committee that we should receive from the learned Solicitor-General for England (Sir G. Hewart) or from my learned Friend the Solicitor-General for Scotland, who has not, I think, made his maiden speech in this House, an explanation of the legal questions involved in this Clause. It seems to me to raise a number of very interesting legal questions. I find, for example, certain phrases used which, so far as I know, have no legal or statutory meaning. These are the words:
"Where before the passing of this Act a Member of His Majesty's Privy Council has been appointed to be a Minister of the Crown"—
I do not know whether either of my learned Friends can state whether there is any definition of what is a "Minister of the Crown." I do not know of any definition of this phrase, and we should like to know clearly and exactly what is meant by these words—" Minister of the Crown." Apparently, in the contemplation of the Government, these words mean an office—
"without any other office being assigned"
consequently, the words "Minister of the Crown" mean an office. The Clause reads:
"Minister of the Crown, at a salary "—
Consequently, it is obviously the view of the Law Officers of the Crown that these words mean an office of profit under the Crown. Therefore, it is obviously not a case of doubt, but a case of absolute clearness, that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle has since the month of December been holding an office of profit under the Crown without submitting himself to re-election; that he has taken part in this House in a large number of Divisions, and consequently laid himself open to the penalties which attach to such action. Consequently we are driven to the conclusion that it is the clear view of the Law Officers of the Crown that the Minister referred to has incurred all these penalties, and that it is necessary by means of this Clause to pass an indemnity in his favour. I think it is a very large order. Of course, we have been accustomed now under the present régime to pass indemnities. We have gone so far indeed as to pass an indemnity to the head of the Bar of England, the Attorney-General himself. But if my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General had been prosecuting a poor criminal in the dock for some breach of the Defence of the Realm Act and he had alleged ignorance of the law, my hon. and learned Friend would have given him very little benefit for his ignorance; yet this House gave a complete indemnity to cover many thousands of pounds to the leader of the Bar himself on a matter of which professionally he ought to have had a thorough knowledge. Indeed, he was rewarded by this indemnity for his own proved incompetence and ignorance, a thing that would not have been allowed by either the Attorney-General or the Solicitor-General to the most ignorant criminal prosecuted at the Old Bailey or in any other criminal Court. Apparently, until the right hon. Member for Dublin University was transferred from the position of First Lord of the Admiralty to this new indeterminate post, no question had arisen. It seems to me to indicate that after all the right hon. Member for Dublin University might have been a very valuable adjunct to the Government as Attorney-General, because this legal question seems to have arisen through him in the first instance. Therefore, I think it would be well if the Committee received an answer from the Solicitor-General on this point. What is the meaning of the phrase "Minister of the Crown"? If it is an office, then, of course, it becomes an office of profit under the Crown, and we must assume that an indemnity is being granted to the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle for all those votes which he has given in this House since the month of December last. The common informer, an industrious gentleman, might take up the pursuit and deprive the right hon. Gentleman of any excess profits he may earn, and incidentally I have no doubt the Treasury would be deprived of something. In regard to the right hon. Member for Dublin University I do not think it matters very much, because he had only voted once, and that would not cover the costs of any enter- prising common informer, so that he is perfectly safe. But as regards the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle, I think it is a pity that the common informer should be deprived of a fruitful opportunity of enriching himself.
That really covers the legal aspect of the case, but I think there are other aspects of the matter in respect to both right hon. Gentlemen. In regard to the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle we had a very interesting controversy in this House last night. We were told that the Government approved of what he did, although what he did was wrapped in some ambiguity. So far as I understand, the only thing he did was to watch the hon. Member for Leicester.
He was a good herd.
Yes; it required two herds, not only the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle but the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Wardle), so that apparently the hon. Member for Leicester is a very elusive Gentleman. But it is very interesting to find that it is one of the duties of a Minister without portfolio to watch the hon. Member for Leicester. The substantial point in regard to this controversy was that the conduct of the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle was called in question. That conduct, whatever it was, undoubtedly raises a grave question of policy—the question whether the representatives of certain parties in this country should associate themselves with the representatives of the same or similar parties in other countries, with a view to bringing about a Peace Conference. That is a question of policy which is important, and it is understood that the Government approved of whatever action the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle took. But unless this Clause is passed, the right hon. Gentleman now, in the clear view of the Government, would obviously have to submit himself for re-election, because the last part of the Clause says he
"shall not, if at the time of his appointment he was a Member of that House, be deemed to have vacated his seat."
Consequently, here you have an opportunity of getting the conduct of the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle submitted not merely to the approval of the Government or the approval of this House, or to the approval of the Labour party, but to the approval of his constituents, the only people the right hon. Gentleman really represents in this House. You would also have the further interest of finding out what the views of this particular constituency are in relation to this particular policy. I think, as I said in regard to the question of the re-election of the Minister of Reconstruction, that it would be of great value to the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle to come into contact with his constituents; it would also be of value to his constituents. There are few members of the Government who could communicate such valuable information to his constituents as the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle. He has been in the countries of two of our principal Allies; he has been for six weeks in Petrograd, where a revolutionary situation exists; and in the speeches he would make he could give information which no other man in this country could give as to the exact situation in that country. We have the additional value attaching to such meetings that he could give, further, the information he acquired in Paris in association with the French and Russian Socialist representatives. These are all strong arguments for not depriving him of this opportunity of meeting his Constituents.
I am now going to leave the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle, and pass on to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University. There are two questions which arise in respect to his change of office, and upon which I think the House is entitled to an answer before it assents to this Clause. This Clause sanctions the change. We should be told why it was necessary for him to leave his former office. There have been very ugly rumours as to dissensions in that Department, as to friction arising between different people, which have rendered it absolutely necessary for the right hon. Gentleman to be removed to another sphere of usefulness. I think it is the duty of the Government, while removing legal doubts, as they call them, also to remove any foundation there may be, if they can remove it, for rumours of this kind, that there should exist in this present Government anything in the nature of friction and dissension. We find it very difficult to believe that anything of that kind should arise in this present Government, and I personally, when I was told of this, dismissed all these rumours as incredible. But as they still persist, I hope that some right hon. Friend on the Front Bench will be in a position to give an official and an authoritative denial, so that the people of this country may be reassured, and may know once and for all that, after eight months of existence, this. Government remains what it was when it was formed, namely, a united, happy, and harmonious body, working with one object and one aim, the vigorous prosecution of the War. That is not the only aspect of the appointment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University. He is appointed an additional member of the War Cabinet. The great feature of the policy of the new Government when it came into existence was that there should be a smaller Cabinet— the smallest possible Cabinet. There was to be the Prime Minister and Lord Milner and Lord Curzon and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle, with the occasional presence of the Leader of the House. When he could be spared from the House, he was to he allowed to sit in the War Cabinet. That meant five members; but now we have-been told that the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Pensions has become a member of the War Cabinet, which makes six. I do not know for how long it is, but as far as we know he is still there. We have now also been told that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University has been added, somewhat involuntarily, to that distinguished body of super-men. That is seven.
The hon. and learned Gentleman forgets General Smuts also; that makes eight, I think.
I am much indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset for reminding me of General Smuts also. There we have this body which in eight months has practically doubled itself. At the present rate of progress, if it lives, it will be swelled to the dimensions of the old Cabinet, whose troubles so largely arose from the largeness of its numbers.
The hon. Member is not entitled to examine in general detail, in the manner in which he is now doing, the constitution of the War Cabinet.
I will not pursue that point, but I think it is important that we should know what are the duties that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University is going to discharge. That is very important. He is to be paid the same salary as he received as First Lord of the Admiralty.
It was £4,500 for that.
Then he is getting a rise in his salary. No; I am not sure that my hon. Friend is quite so accurate as he was before. The right hon. Gentleman had a house as First Lord, which is equivalent to £500, so that it was really £5,000. We all know that he was so occupied as First Lord of the Admiralty that he could rarely come to the House. In fact, all the answering of questions practically devolved upon the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary. Now, however, that he has moved into the exalted sphere of the War Cabinet, where one might assume he would be sitting from early morn to dewy eve with his mind concentrated on the War, at 10, Downing Street, he is constantly in the House and smoking-room devoting his attention to other pursuits. That seems to indicate that the duties of a member of the War Cabinet are not of a serious character, and the inference I draw is that if these duties are not of a serious character, this House should hesitate to sanction the appointment, as it will under this Clause, of an additional member of the War Cabinet.
I do not know whether there is a Minister in a position to answer these questions of policy. The Solicitor-General for England and my right hon. Friend the Solicitor-General for Scotland would, no doubt, be quite capable of giving an answer to the legal point which is involved, but at the same time there is nobody present who could give an answer on the question of policy except, possibly, the First Commissioner of Works. He knows a great deal about the buildings which these people occupy, and he, with his knowledge of things, may know something of these duties and of what is carried on in these buildings. It seems to me that he is probably the only Gentleman who is competent among those present on the Front Bench to give an answer on this point, unless it be the Patronage Secretary. Patronage, of course, is a great feature in the present Government. These are the two sets of questions to which my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh and myself desire an answer. The general questions of policy were set forth by my hon. Friend, and I have put a few additional considerations, both relating to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University. There is, secondly, this legal question as to whether this is not, in fact, a special act of indemnity to the hon. Member for Barnard Castle, and consequently a relieving Section for both hon. Members in respect that it will dispense on their behalf with the necessity of going to their constituents for re-election.
There is one legal point which seems to have been overlooked by my two hon. Friends who so admirably treated the whole of this subject. I refer to the consideration that is contained in the words at the beginning of this Clause —"before the passing of this Act." Why are these words introduced? Why will this Clause not apply to any Member of this House who may subsequently become a member of the War Cabinet without portfolio? Is it because the Government have taken a solemn pledge that no further Members of this House will be appointed Ministers without portfolio in any circumstances? I hope that is the explanation of this, because I think we have already far too many Ministers without portfolio, and I should be much reassured if we can have this explanation that these words mean that in no circumstances whatever will any further Minister without portfolio be appointed. It may, however, mean that new Ministers may be appointed without portfolio, and that in that case they would submit themselves for re-election. That is what I should like, and if it is to be our lot to see more Ministers without portfolios created, let tham submit themselves to the electorate. It may also mean that further Ministry Bills will have to be introduced before long, and that a similar Clause could be put in and relieve such a Minister from the necessity of re-election. Whatever the explanation of these words is, I hope we shall have this point of policy—because it is more than a point of mere drafting—elucidated in any reply that is given from the Front Bench.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) asks an important question—Whether this Clause is to apply to new appointments, and how? The words he has mentioned, "before the passing of the Act,". are evidently designed to show that the provisions of the Clause are intended to refer only to existing appointments, and the reason for that is obvious. The Government does not desire to make any other appointment of this kind without giving the House the opportunity of dealing with the particular case. My hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) asked for an explanation of the Clause. But the rest of his speech seemed to be intended to show that no explanation, so far as he was concerned, was required. He mentioned the case of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dublin University and the case of my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle, and he suggested that if it were not for this Clause they might be assailed by the Common Informer. Perhaps he is right, and one of the disadvantages of being assailed by the Common Informer is that, however slender his case may be, the successful defendant can rarely recover costs against him. Is it not apparent to the Members of the Committee that the object of this Clause is to avoid unnecessary and vexatious proceedings? The question was raised some months ago in this House as to the position of a Member of the House who was appointed to be a Member of the War Cabinet without a portfolio, and upon consideration the answer was given that a Member holding that position was a Member holding an office of profit under the Crown. The question then turns upon the construction of two sections in the well-known Statute of Anne, and is as to whether or not these Members could accept these offices and still remain Members of the House at all or without being re-elected. The object of this Clause, and the simple object of it, is to remove any doubt upon that head. I shall not venture upon the questions of policy which have been mentioned both by my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh and by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Lanark (Mr. Pringle). It is not for me at this juncture, and upon this Bill, to speak of the brilliant and conspicuous success of my right hon. Friend the Member for Dublin University in the office which he recently held. Those matters and similar matters are not relevant to a discussion upon this Clause.
Why was he removed?
The simple object of this Clause is to get rid of a doubt which ingenious minds might raise upon the position of those right hon. Gentlemen, and there is no further or sinister purpose behind it.
2.0 A.M.
I cannot for a moment be satisfied with the response made by the Solicitor-General on the question which remains unanswered. I leave to my hon. and learned Friend beside me any comments he may want to make upon the legal exposition of my right hon. Friend, which may or may not be accurate. I am not a legal luminary, and therefore I cannot offer any suggestion, but I do suggest to this House, and the Solicitor-General practically admitted it in the remarks he made, that we are entitled to know why the First Lord of the Admiralty, who was so brilliant and conspicuous a success—to repeat the words of the Solicitor-General—at the Admiralty, has been removed from the office where he was not only brilliant but successful. Surely it may lead to great disasters to take away from the Admiralty such a Minister.
I do not think that arises on this Clause.
On the point of Order. You will recollect, Mr. Maclean, that you did admit this matter when I was discussing these right hon. Gentlemen.
No. The hon. Member will recollect that what I admitted was the question as to what duties the right hon. Gentlemen was going to perform in the War Cabinet. The general policy and matters of that kind really do not arise on this Clause.
I have no desire to get into conflict with anyone in the House with regard to that, but as you point out, and I am obliged for being reminded of it, we are entitled to know the duties of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University in the War Cabinet. That is a question which you agree is an appropriate one to ask, and the propriety of that question is emphasised by the fact that attached to these duties, which have not yet been explained to this House, there is a salary of £5,000.
The hon. Member is not entitled to make that speech again.
On a point of Order. Be is endeavouring to ask for a reply.
That would be the third time for it to be done, and I really cannot allow the Member for East Edinburgh to deal with it again. He must take the answer he has been given, such as it is.
I shall not go further than to say we have got no answer. You have inferred that we have got no answer. I beg to move "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again." I do that for this reason. It is now past two o'clock on Friday morning. We have put questions, and we are entitled to have answers. Very few Members of this House, except those of us who are deeply and keenly interested in this Bill, have remained. Most of us have lost our trains, and will have great difficulty in getting to our homes. We do not do that for fun. We do that because we are interested in what is happening, and I think we are entitled to know—no one on that Bench has told us and apparently no one can tell us—what the duties are. The question is a perfectly specific one: What are the duties? I shall not elaborate more than that, in case you think I am transgressing the rule. Therefore, because we have not got that information which would enable us to make up our minds whether this Clause ought to be allowed to pass and whether the Committee stage ought to be completed, I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I cannot accept the proposal. I think we all desire to get through the Bill. With regard to the question of my hon. Friend (Mr. Hogge), it is not one which I could answer on this Motion. I think we all know how extremely important and urgent—
If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to give an answer, I have no doubt my hon. Friend will withdraw the Motion to report Progress.
If the Home Secretary is in a position to tell us what are the duties, I am prepared to withdraw my Motion; but I am not prepared to go on with the discussion of this Clause unless we know the duties of the right hon. Gentleman, who is now being added to the War Cabinet without any explanation at all to this House. I beg leave to withdraw.
Motion to report Progress, by leave, withdrawn.
I can only tell my hon. Friend what I think he knows already. It is the duty of the War Cabinet to direct and carry on the War, and I think we all know that the members of the War Cabinet are, perhaps, the hardest worked men of the day. The Cabinet used to sit usually every fortnight, but now the Cabinet sits most days of the week, and all of us know they are constantly engaged in discussing matters closely related to the War interviewing not only other Ministers, but officials and the heads of the great Departments, and determining matters which urgently require to be decided. I should say that membership of the War Cabinet is an office, not only as important but perhaps more important, certainly as onerous and as difficult, and requiring as much attention and as much experience, as any other office in the country. I do not think a man can render higher service than is rendered by the War Cabinet.
I am sure the hon. Member is obliged to the Home Secretary for his courteous answer with regard to the duties of the Ministers. Now we know what my hon. Friend has been endeavouring to get at for the last half-hour, and that is why the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University has been promoted to be a member of the War Cabinet. I think we are entitled to protest against this action on the part of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University is, on the Home Secretary's own showing, now promoted to be a member of the War Cabinet to conduct this great War—a man who we know has had a very chequered career and who does not possess the confidence of this House. On the Home Secretary's own showing he is to be promoted to decide great questions of policy—a man who was actually engaged at one time in treason against this country.
The hon. Member is quite out of order in referring to a Member of this House as being guilty of treason. In the second place, the hon. Member is now repeating arguments which have already been three times addressed to the Committee, and I must remind him of the Standing Order referring to that.
I would not like to make any animadversions against the character of the right hon. Gentleman when he is not here to answer, and I will not develop that point further. But I protest against this particular Clause which enables the right hon. Gentleman to become a member of the War Cabinet and occupy so important a position at this time.
I do not wish to repeat anything which has been said before on this point, but the Solicitor-General has said that before the passing of this Act words had been introduced to prevent further additions to the War Cabinet, so that the House would have an opportunity of asking for the reasons for their appointment and expressing its opinion on the appointment. My only complaint of the reply of the Home Secretary is that he gave us no account of what the War Cabinet did, and he did not tell us the reason for the additional appointment at the present time. The information has not been given to the Committee, and I shall divide the Committee.
Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 44; Noes, 5.
Division No. 90.] AYES. [2.10 a.m. Archdale, Lt. Edward M. Greig, Colonel James William Raffan, Peter Wilson Baird, John Lawrence Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds) Rea, Walter Russell Baldwin, Stanley Hewart, Sir Gordon Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arfon) Beck, Arthur Cecil Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Samuels, Arthur W. Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith- Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Scott, A. MacCallum (Bridgeton) Brace, Rt. Hon. William Jones, Wm. S. Glyn- (Stepney) Shaw, Hon. Alexander Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Sherwell, Arthur James Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Talbot, Lord E. Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Lindsay, William Arthur Watson, John B. (Stockton) Coats, Sir Stuart (Wimbledon) Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Williams, Aneurin (Durham) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcester, N.) Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Winfrey, Sir R. Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Parker, James (Halifax) Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Pease, Rt. Hon. H. P. (Darlington) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. J. Fisher, Rt. Hon. Wm. Hayes (Fulham) Pratt, John W. Hope and Captain Guest. Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
NOES. Kilbride, Denis Robinson, Sidney TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. King, Joseph Whitty, Patrick Joseph Hogge and Mr. Pringle. Mason, David M. (Coventry)
Clause 7 ( Short Title ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Duration of Act.)
The office of Minister of Reconstruction shall cease to exist on the termination of a period of two years after the conclusion of the present War or such earlier or later date as may be fixed by His Majesty in Council, and then any appointments made under the powers conferred by this Act shall be determined, and any powers or duties which have been transferred to the Ministry shall without prejudice to any action taken in pursuance of those powers or duties revert to the Department or authority from which they were transferred.—[ Mr. Charles Roberts. ]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
This is a Clause which I think the Home Secretary indicated he would accept, subject to two modifications which I have made. He desires me to move it. I have substituted the words, "The office of Minister of Reconstructon," for the words "The Ministry of Reconstructon." That, I understand, is a mere drafting Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman also indicated that he could only accept it in the form—
"on the termination of a period of two years after the conclusion of the present War or such earlier or later date as may be fixed by His Majesty in Council."
The intention is that the Ministry should cease after two years, but in case its work was not completed the right hon. Gentleman wished for a little extra elasticity. I do not much like this extra elasticity, but I quite understand that he could get it in another way by carrying on the Bill under the Expiring Laws Continuance Act. Therefore, I do not think one loses much in making the alteration, if I am assured that the intention is to get rid of the Ministry at the end of two years after the conclusion of the War.
I am prepared to accept the Clause in the form in which it has been moved, and I also readily give the assurance for which my hon. Friend asks, that our intention and the expectation is that the office shall not last beyond two years, and that it should continue only if something exceptional should occur.
I must say I am very disappointed with the way this Clause is put forward. I was the first to raise this matter of limiting the life of the Ministry to two years after the termination of the War, and I am sure, from the way in which my remarks were received, that there was a very general feeling that we ought to fix a time limit to this Ministry. But now, what is the effect of this Clause which has just been accepted by the Home Secretary? It is this. We express a sort of pious wish and even a pious intention that the Ministry shall come to an end within two years of the termination of the War, but that the period may be extended or shortened without coming to Parliament. I object very strongly to the words "or later" being put in, because what that does is to give the Government power to continue this Ministry without coming to Parliament. I should very much prefer that if they wanted to continue the Ministry they should do it under the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, which at any rate would bring it before Parliament, and there would be an opportunity in Committee on the Bill of excluding this measure. Therefore, in the form in which the Home Secretary accepts this Clause it really is not worth very much. If we had the Clause in the form in which it appeared on the Paper it would at any rate be necessary to come to Parliament for its continuance. I should much prefer no Clause at all to the form in which this Clause is now, because, after all, Clauses and Bills and Acts of Parliament are not intended for the mere expression of pious intentions. If we have pious intentions, let us express them in church or somewhere else, but not in Bills and Acts of Parliament.
This is the last Motion on the Committee stage of the Bill, and I wish to say that I very much hope my right hon. Friend will not accept the suggestion from the Front Bench opposite, that this Bill should be limited in this particular way I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) in suggesting that this measure ought to go into the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill just the same as other measures which have been created for temporary purposes.
I will not persist if the general view is that the words "or later" ought to come out.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a second time.
Amendment made: Leave out the words "or later."—[ Mr. C. Roberts. ]
Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered this day (Friday).
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
Business of the House (Friday Sitting)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do sit this day."— [ Mr. J. Hope. ]
On this Motion there are certain comments that one wants to make with regard to various matters in which one is interested, and which can be raised when we have the leisure, as we have now, to discuss them. There is one subject on which I want some information from some member or other of the Government. I am very much concerned, from many reports that are coming to hand, with regard to the treatment of our soldiers in the Army by travelling medical boards.
That does not arise. It is purely a matter of procedure or business whether we are to meet to-morrow or not.
I hope that we are not going to meet to-morrow. I understood that the Motion was that we were to meet again to-day at twelve o'clock. I did not quite catch whether it is twelve noon or not, but presumably it is. I suggest that we should not meet at 12 o'clock. We have been kept by the Government till this early hour discussing the Committee stage of this very important measure, and I think the Government is asking too much from its loyal supporters like those of us who have remained here to keep a House in wanting them to come back again at so early an hour. Many of us have lost the last trains to our respective homes. Although I do not want to make it a personal matter I may say that I cannot get a train till six o'clock, and it is only out of devotion to the Government in seeing that no one should prevent them getting this Bill in a proper form that I have remained here all this time. If the right hon. Gentleman looked at this matter, I think he might abandon this Motion to sit this day. We have discussed all the essential points on the Committee stage, and therefore I do not see why on the Report and Third Reading stages, which are the stages the right hon. Gentleman wants, there should be any discussion—
Oh!
Unless my hon. and learned Friend here wants to repeat his arguments. I do not see why there should be any further discussion, and why we could not take those stages equally well on Monday without any prospect of serious opposition being put forward to the measure. I am always in favour of fighting a measure as long as there is an opportunity to fight it. We have fought this in Committee and stated our points, and I do not propose to fight the same points on Report. I think it is stupid to pass this Bill and create this new Ministry, and I have stated from time to time my objections to various parts of the measure; but I have been beaten in the Committee stage, and I am quite willing to accept the defeat of the suggestions I have made. On that ground I do not see why the Government should anticipate any serious opposition on the Report and Third Reading stages. There is, therefore, no necessity for us to meet to-day. I do not know how many Members of the opposition to this Bill I represent, but I think the Government might take it that the bulk of the Members who have opposed it in Committee are not going to trouble to repeat their arguments on Report. There is only one point in dispute, and perhaps the Home Secretary can give a decision now, as he has the Leader of the House beside him, and that is as to whether the Government intend to give up the idea of appointing an Under-Secretary. If he would say that they would abandon the provision for an Under-Secretary I am prepared to speak for those who are associated with me in this opposition in saying that we will let the Government have the Bill without any further discussion. We should then not require to meet to-day, and should meet the wishes of those who are here—and, after all, the only people whose wishes we desire to meet are those who are here now. Those hon. Members do not want to meet again to-day, and I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman. He has always kept his bargains with us and we ours with him, and he can have his Report and Third Reading stages on Monday if we do not meet to-day. I hope he will see that, and agree to my suggestion.
I hope the Leader of the House will reply to the courteous appeal of my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). It seems to me that the universal feeling is that those of us who have opposed this Bill have put all the points that can possibly be put, and, as he has declared, nothing more can be said on the subject. Perhaps the Leader of the House will meet the views of all the Members here who do not wish to meet again to-day after the thorough manner in which the whole subject has been thrashed out. That is the universal feeling. I am sure that so far as the right hon. Gentleman is concerned he is anxious to expedite business, and that he will do so by meeting what is the universal opinion.
I think while the Front Bench is consulting on this matter it might be a convenience if I offered a few observations. I think the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh is a very helpful one. As far as I recollect, the only outstanding question on the Bill is the one of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary. I do not think any other question was left open for Report, and if the right hon. Gentleman is now ready to give us a reply, I will conclude my remarks.
I will give a reply. If the hon. Gentlemen are desirous of facilitating the Government, which we know has been their object all through the evening—
It is not often it in recognised.
There is one way by which it can be done. I am afraid we cannot postpone this Bill until Monday, because there was an understanding arrived at to-day that the Corn Production Bill should be taken on Monday with a view to its being finished on Tuesday; but if all the arguments on this Bill have been stated, and no one wishes to state them again, the best way would be to give us the Report and Third Reading now. If that is done—although I do not like to do it without consulting my right hon. Friend —we will waive the question—
I think the right hon. Gentleman must have misunderstood the Message that passed with me just now. The Report has been appointed for this day—that is, for the Sitting at noon this day. But I may point out what is the position. If the present Motion were withdrawn, the effect would be that the House would not sit to-day at noon, and the business appointed for this day at noon would automatically pass on to the Order Paper of the next Sitting of the House—that would be. Monday's Sitting.
I really am very sorry, because I am quite sure the House would adhere to the bargain which the hon. Gentlemen behind me were willing to make, but I do not see how it is possible to put down the business for Monday, and carry out the arrangement which was come to.
Could we not take this by agreement that there should be no discussion after eleven o'clock on Monday?
I am sure the House knows I would be glad to meet their wishes in this matter, but we cannot do it because there is to be a good deal of discussion on this Bill by Members who are not now present, and who counted upon the Report stage for that discussion. I am sure it would not be treating them fairly if I consented to what is now suggested. I hope, therefore, under these circumstances my hon. Friend's behind me will agree to the Motion.
There is only one further question I would like to put: Are we to understand no other business will be taken except the Report of this Bill?
I am sure that no one would wish that some of these smaller Bills which are down should not be taken. If opportunity arises they will be taken, but on none of them, so far as I know, is there any controversy.
Tell us what you are going to take.
I was willing that the House should get both the Report and the Third Reading. After the undertaking given, I have no desire to make any other comment. I am sorry we have got ourselves into a mess from the point of view of order and cannot get back in order to achieve what we want. I want to ask the Leader of the House not to take the Isle of Man Customs Bill (Second Reading) to-morrow. That is a Bill in which I am interested.
No; I cannot agree-to that.
Several HON. MEMBERS: Do not give way!
I am amazed that certain, Members of the House do not seem to have enough confidence in the Leader of the House to think he cannot make up his mind. I have never found him unable to make up his mind or unwilling to make replies to requests which have been made to him. I ask him not to take the Bill I have referred to to-morrow. A large number are interested in it, and there are certain grievances with regard to taxation in the Isle of Man involving the Governor, Lord Raglan, and it will take some time. It is asking a simple thing not to take this Bill to-day. There are other Orders which can be taken. It is not delaying business—it is only a question of preference of Orders.
I certainly am not desirous merely for the sake of not giving way of going against any general feeling in the House, but I cannot agree to have this Bill put off. It comes up every year, and if my hon. Friend is willing he can postpone what he has to say upon it till next year.
You will not get it to-morrow.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved, "That this House do sit this day."
It being after half-past Eleven of the clock upon Thursday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER Adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing: Order, until this day, pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.
Adjourned at Nineteen minutes before Three-o'clock.