House of Commons
Friday, August 3, 1917
Parker's Divorce Bill [Lords]
I beg to move, "That, in the case of Parker's Divorce Bill [ Lords ], Standing Order 204 be suspended, and the time for the Second Reading of the Bill be extended to Monday next."
I object. There seems to be no necessity for putting the Second Reading down for Monday. The Motion can be taken then.
This is not taking the Second Reading, but it is to remedy a quite innocent mistake on the part of the agents for the Bill, in not having given notice in the prescribed time. It was due to shortage of staff on account of the War. I satisfied myself that this was so, and if we did not take this Motion it would condemn an unfortunate person to a fine of something like £500. I am sure the hon. Member and the House would not wish to inflict a hardship of that kind on an innocent party.
I am very much obliged to my right hon. Friend for his explanation. I am a member of the Committee, and I always attend to these Bills, yet I have not received the papers in regard to this, nor have other Members too.
This only allows the Bill to proceed to Second Reading, and it will then be considered by the Committee.
I beg to withdraw my objection.
Question put, and agreed to.
Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Glasgow Boundaries Act (1912) Amendment Order Confirmation Bill. (By Order.)
Consideration deferred till Monday next.
Trading With the Enemy Amendment Act, 1916
Copy presented of Supplementary List of Persons, Firms, and Companies as to whom Orders have been made under Section 1 (1) of the Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Food Supplies
SUGAR.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he is aware that much dissatisfaction is felt among the working people at Brightrigg, Oxnam, near Jedburgh, in the county of Roxburgh, because of the delay in supplying forms of application for sugar for preserving fruit, and because of no replies being sent to reminders accompanied with envelopes stamped and addressed by people who are suffering loss from the sugar not being provided in time to preserve their fruit; and whether the Ministry of Food will make prompt inquiry into the matter?
I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given yesterday to the hon. Member for North-East Lanarkshire.
Can my hon. Friend say, with regard to the Scottish counties and the jam makers, who depend so much on the supply of sugar, whether anything is going to be done?
I do not understand what the hon. Member means.
I will put it this way: Can my hon. Friend tell me whether more consideration is being given to fruit growers in counties dependent upon the growth of fruit than to other people in some of the urban districts of the country?
Every effort is being made by the Department to distribute equally whatever supplies may be available.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether sugar is now available?
No supplementary supplies are now available for this purpose.
Is the hon. Member aware that advertisements are appearing that sugar, especially for preserving purposes, is available?
I have not seen any such advertisements.
Have the fruit growers of Scotland received any sugar at all?
I conclude that they have received portions in response to their applications, like persons in other parts of the country.
Cannot the hon. Gentleman say definitely; it is not a matter of "concluding." Does he not conclude that these people cannot make jam out of conclusions?
I will inquire.
Apples
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in accordance with representations made to the Controller of Import Restrictions by a deputation of wholesale fruit brokers and merchants of Liverpool, Glasgow, Manchester, and London, he will take steps to arrange for the removal in whole or in part of the prohibition of the import of apples and encourage the stowing of apples as light freight to fill up vessels at ports of loading?
May I ask the hon. Gentleman if he will also reply to my question 81, which was postponed yesterday, and which deals with the same subject?—[To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the importance of the apple as an article of diet and the ease with which it can be carried with other articles, His Majesty's Government will endeavour to provide for it improved shipping facilities?]
I think the answer I am about to give will cover also the question which the hon. Gentleman postponed yesterday. I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the answers which have recently been given on this subject, and in particular to that which was returned to the hon. and gallant Member for the Enfield Division of Middlesex last Friday.
Indian Meal
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that Indian meal made from Indian corn and largely used for food is at present being sold wholesale by millers in different parts of Ireland at from £2 15s. to £3 per sack of 280 lbs. or 20 stone; whether he is aware that the pre-war wholesale price of this same article was only 15s. to 16s. per sack of 20 stone or 280 lbs.; and whether he can say what steps the Food Controller has taken, if any, to regulate and lower the price of Indian meal to the consumer?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. The maximum retail price in Ireland of maize flour, maize meal, and maize products generally, has been fixed at 3½d. per 1b.
Will the hon. Gentleman say when the maximum price was fixed?
At the moment I cannot give the date.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Government have taken over the control of Indian corn, during the last six months, from which Indian meal is made, and, if that is so, can he say why no maximum price has been fixed for Indian meal in order to protect the consumer?
I should like notice of that question. The reply which I have given is an answer to all the points contained in the question on the Paper.
Flour
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food Whether he is aware that in many parts of the country, and more especially in Ireland, flour is bought in bulk by the farmer's or labourer's wife and carried home to be made into bread and consumed in their own household; and whether, see- ing that the baker's shop-made loaf of 4 lbs. is going to be reduced in price from 1s. to 9d., whether a corresponding lowering of price will be made in the price of flour made into bread by the people in their own homes?
The retail price of flour will be reduced so as to correspond with the price of bread.
Does the hon. Gentleman mean the retail price, especially for home flour—that is, flour bought by people to make bread in their own homes?
Certainly, yes.
Fish (Transit)
asked (1) the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of the difficulty of dealing with the arrivals of fish, notably herrings, on the North-East Coast on account of the shortage of labour and difficulty of transit; if so, will he say what remedy is suggested; (2) the President of the Board of Agriculture if he is aware of the arrivals of quantities of fish, notably herrings, quantities of which are wasted; if so, what means are being taken to market such to the people; (3) the President of the Board of Agriculture if he has received a resolution from the North Sea Fisheries Committee calling the attention of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to the waste of fish landed at North-Eastern ports owing to the inadequacy of the arrangements at such ports for the distribution of such fish by rail, and to the resulting loss to the community of a quantity of valuable food; and, if so, will he say what steps are proposed to remedy the matter?
Gluts of herrings have occurred at North Shields on two occasions recently, when a proportion of the fish was lost for food purposes owing to a variety of causes, the chief of which were lack of labour, difficulties of transport, and the lack of tin-plates at the canneries. The herrings landed on both occasions were immature herrings of a very soft and oily character. These travel badly and are difficult to handle as fresh herrings, but are suitable for kippering and canning. In spite of difficulties, large quantities were so treated. The situation was dealt with by the Fish Food Committee and the Food Controller, in co- operation with the Board, and these three authorities have since been making such arrangements as are possible for dealing with gluts in the future. I will send my hon. Friend a statement of these arrangements, which is too long to give in answer to a question.
Is the hon. Member aware that I made a complaint the other day respecting the shortage or labour, and that I was informed by the Board of Trade that the matter is now rectified. Is the labour sufficient, for I have had many complaints?
That is argumentative.
Fruit-Bottling
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture, in view of the demonstration of fruit-bottling given at the House of Commons on the 30th ultimo, and of the constant reminders by the Food Production Department of the necessity of preserving all possible fruit and vegetables, whether he will explain why the necessary bottles ordered from the Board of Agriculture many weeks back cannot be obtained, as the delay causes inconvenience and ultimate loss to the public through the spoiling of the fruit?
I must remind the hon. Member of the extreme difficulty of obtaining any glass ware at present. The efforts of the Board and the Ministry of Munitions have already resulted in greatly increasing the output, so much so, that 160,944 bottles were distributed last week, and the supply is increasing week by week.
Coal Reserves
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether or not the Irish Office and the Board of Trade have considered the Report of the expert sent by the Controller of Mines to examine the mineral field at Arigna; whether the Government are prepared to publish the Report of the expert; and whether the Government are now prepared to take any and, if so, what steps to make the coal reserves of Arigna available for the supply of Irish demands in the coming winter?
The Controller of Coal Mines is still in consultation with the Chief Secretary upon the expert's Report on the Arigna coal and other mines, and it is not considered desirable yet to publish the Report.
Military Service
Invalided Men (Training)
asked the Pensions Minister whether his Department is making itself responsible for the training of a considerable number of men invalided out of the Service by a course of instruction at the Polytechnic in Regent Street; whether, in the case of these men, any provision is made in respect of residence and other charges, or whether private appeals have to be made for the establishment of hostels; and whether it is proposed to do anything in this direction apart from charitable appeals?
It is the case that a substantial number of discharged disabled men are being provided with training at the Polytechnic Institute and at other institutes, both in London and elsewhere. An allowance at the maximum rate of pension is made to each man under Article 6 of the Royal Warrant to enable him to maintain himself during his training and in addition an allowance to his wife and family or dependants, but the Minister has been able to take advantage in some instances of offers made spontaneously by private individuals to provide hostels in which a certain number of the men can be lodged during training. It will be obvious, therefore, that while I am glad when private gratitude adds to the amenities available to disabled soldiers, the general scheme is based on the idea that maintenance, including housing, should be defrayed out of pensions and allowances to men and their families.
Russian Medical Students
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a number of Russian medical students in this country would, if British subjects, be entitled to exemption from military service under Army Instruction Order, 1290; and whether, in view of the Military-Service (Conventions with Allied States) Act securing to conscripted aliens the same rights as are conceded to conscripted British subjects, he will extend the provisions of Army Instruction Order 1290 accordingly?
It is not proposed to extend the provisions of the Instructions in question to Russian medical students in this country, as these persons have the right of application to a tribunal for exemption or can apply to the Russian Ambassador for the grant of a certificate of exemption.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the Statute gives exactly the same privileges to the Russian subject here under the Military Service Acts as to the British subject, and unless there is some alteration made in the Order difficulties are certain to arise in connection with the tribunals, because they will be placed in a worse position?
What is the object of trying to exempt anybody from service in the Army? What advantage is it to this country to prevent these conscripts joining the Army?
Unfit Men (Discharges)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he can state if new arrangements have yet been made for expediting the discharge of unfit men from the Army; if so, what is the nature of these arrangements; when they came into operation; and how many men have been discharged as unfit for further military service during July?
In order to expedite the discharge from the Army of unfit men, other than patients in hospital, instructions were issued on 30th June, 1917, to General Officers Commanding-in-Chief to establish at a convenient centre in their command a standing invaliding board, to which all men considered unfit for further service were to be sent. All men whom the standing invaliding boards approve for discharge are discharged forthwith. Orders were further issued that the discharge of a man was not to be delayed in order to arrange substitution or to enrol him as an Army Reserve munition worker. Within twenty-four hours of the receipt of the man's documents from the approving officer, the president of the medical board, a notification is sent to the secretary of the local committee of the Statutory Committee in the district in which the man intends to reside and to the Director of the Employment Department, Ministry of Labour. The latter arranges for a representative of the Employment Exchange nearest the man's home to visit the man at his home in order to place him in employment. It is not considered advisable in the public interest to publish any figures with regard to the numbers of men recruited into or discharged from the Army.
Can my hon. Friend say whether men who are in this condition, and are, for instance, six months awaiting discharge, of which I could give him an example, can make application themselves to the Medical Board, or must they have the approval of the commanding officer and the medical officer?
Speaking offhand, I think they can personally.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are cases in Ireland where men are kept not for six months, but for years?
If my hon. Friend will produce any specific case of such delay as he has mentioned, I will have it immediately inquired into.
United Press of America
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a man and his wife who are in the employment of the United Press of America, of 79, Temple Chambers; whether he is aware that the man was editor and his wife the assistant editor of a pro-German paper in Seattle until the German subsidies failed to arrive after the War and the paper failed; whether the man is avowedly pro-German in sentiments and his wife a German by birth, although asserting that she is a Norwegian; will he say if all their time is occupied in the United Press; and, if not, what is done with their spare time?
My attention had not previously been called to these persons, but I am making inquiries, and will let the hon. Member know the result.
Questions
Ministry of Reconstruction
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether any estimate has been formed of the expenditure of the proposed Ministry of Reconstruction during the present financial year; if so, what is the estimated sum; and what, if any, estimate has been formed for the first full year of working of the Ministry of Reconstruction?
We have as yet no sufficient data from which to frame any trustworthy estimate of the cost of the Ministry.
Are we then to understand that the Bill was introduced with the connivance or approval of the Treasury, without any estimate at all, and therefore practically unlimited expenditure free, as asked in connection with this new Ministry?
There will be no unlimited expenditure as long as I have anything to do with it.
Has any expenditure already been incurred?
Yes, a small, very small, expenditure.
Will the hon. Gentleman assure the House that a strict limit will be fixed to the expenditure for this year?
That is a matter for argument on the Bill.
Liquor Trade, Ireland
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware of the hardship caused to licensed traders in Listowel and district, as well as other parts of Ireland, by wholesale licensed houses refusing now to supply the usual, or indeed any, quantity of liquors to their regular customers; and whether a Regulation will be made compelling the wholesale houses to supply a reasonable quantity to their usual customers, as has been done by the Sugar Commission, based on the amount of sugar received in 1915?
I must refer the hon. Member to the second part of my answer given yesterday to the hon. Member for East Galway.
Will the hon. Gentleman say what the answer was, as I am not aware of it?
If the hon. Member will refer to it I think he will find it is a sufficient reply to the question.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the wholesale liquor traders in Ireland have now practically a complete monopoly of the trade, and not only are they selling their own retail quantities, but also those which should go to the small shopkeepers?
The terms of yesterday's answer were so cast, because we were aware of the facts stated by the hon. Member.
4th Battalion King's Shropshire Light Infantry (Leave)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the 4th Battalion of the King's Shropshire Light Infantry, although they had been on service abroad for more than two years, were sent to France the day after they arrived here and had therefore no chance of seeing their relatives, he will do his best to get them leave as soon as the military situation makes it possible?
I am hopeful that the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief will take into consideration the special circumstances of this case.
Territorial Force (Promotion of Officers)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War when the decision regarding the promotion of officers and men of the Territorials will be issued; and will the same conditions prevail as will be applied to the Regular Forces?
As I informed my hon. Friend on 13th June, a new system of promotion of officers in the Territorial Force is already being carried out in the combatant branches, and the promotions are nearly complete. I am not aware of any decisions pending in regard to the promotion of other ranks.
War Cabinet
asked the Prime Minister whether the conditions under which the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle sits in the War Cabinet differ in any respect from the conditions of the other members?
The answer is in the negative.
Mineral Resources, Ireland
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government propose to take any and, if so, what steps to develop and make available for Irish needs the mineral resources of Ireland?
As was stated by the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture in answer to a question of the hon. Member for the College Green Division of Dublin on the 20th June, the Department and the Geological Survey have been in communication with the Ministry of Munitions as to Irish mineral resources, and inquiries are at present being carried out. The Department's economic geologist is a member of the advisory committee appointed by the Ministry of Munitions in connection with the matter.
Commercial Intelligence Service
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have yet reached any decision with regard to the reforming of the Commercial Intelligence Service abroad; whether that decision is in substantial agreement with the recommendations made by the Federation of British Industries and the Association of Chambers of Commerce of the United Kingdom; and whether, if any decision reached by the Government departs in principle from those recommendations, the Government will undertake that the above bodies, as representing the commercial and industrial interests of the country most vitally concerned, shall be consulted before the decision is put into effect?
The matter is still under the consideration of the Government.
Postal Facilities (County Kerry)
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that dissatisfaction is being caused amongst the people from Limerick into Ballylongford, including Tarbert, Foynes, and Glin, owing to the threatened stoppage of the mail delivery by taking away the present mode of conveyance by car; and, seeing that this, if carried out, will interfere largely with the commercial conditions and marketing of food in the whole district, will he reconsider the matter?
I am having inquiry made, and will write to the hon. Member.
Will the hon. Gentleman make inquiries as to the need for this service in the interests of a large fishing industry and butter supply; and is he aware that the people of the district have no other means of getting their goods to market and across the Channel, and that much public inconvenience is caused?
I am very sorry that inconvenience has been caused in the district. I will have inquiries made, and will communicate with the hon. Gentleman.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are no train facilities in any shape or form in any of those districts, and that the mail cars are the only means of communication?
I will inquire.
Attack on Police Barrack (Ballybunion)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that dissatisfaction is felt in every part of North Kerry in connection with the conduct of the police in the shooting of Daniel Scanlon recently in Ballybunion; whether he is aware that the coroner invited the police on both days of the inquest to give evidence, which the police refused; and whether he will now have a sworn inquiry held in Ballybunion by an impartial tribunal to inquire into and ascertain the whole truth?
I explained the position of this matter yesterday, and the reasons why, on account of pending proceedings, I am unable to discuss the details of the case.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I personally have made inquiries into this matter, and is he aware that respectable citizens of Ballybunion will cease to have any respect for law and order if some additional inquiry is not held into the matter, and why, as the result of the coroner's verdict, are those men not placed under arrest and put on trial?
I have nothing to add to the answer I have given.
Housing, Ireland
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government realise the need of providing for the better housing of the working classes in the cities and towns of Ireland; and whether the Government have any and, if so, what plan for securing decent and sanitary homes for Irish artisans?
The housing of the working classes in the cities and towns of Ireland is a matter of urgent importance, and will, I hope, be taken in hand as soon as possible after the War together with the housing proposals for Great Britain, which have been promised by my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board. The initiative will lie with the local authorities. In Dublin and, I believe, some other cities and towns housing schemes are already prepared by local authorities and have been considered by the Local Government Board, Ireland.
Is it not the fact that a Committee has just been set up for Great Britain to examine into housing, and is a similar Committee going to be set up for Ireland?
There will be no difficulty in setting up a Committee to examine into existing schemes, if that should appear necessary. The problem will be treated on the same lines as those indicated by the President of the Local Government Board.
Is there any difficulty in having a certain sum ear-marked for this particular purpose, so that after the War you may have something to dispose of?
I would rather my hon. Friend asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer that question; I cannot answer it.
County Court Officials
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the unrest amongst County Court officials, the majority with from ten to forty years' service, and the threatened strike by them, he is prepared to meet a deputation of judges, registrars, high bailiffs, and officers to see if there is not a way out of the present difficulties, or will he authorise the Civil Service Arbitration Board to call such a conference and report their findings to him?
The Treasury are in full possession of the information relating to County Court officials and I see no advantage in the proposal that I should meet the deputation suggested. As regards the suggestion in the last part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 20th July to a question of his on the same subject.
Are we to understand that all the answers which have been made to questions relating to this subject have suggested that the difficulty is one in dealing with it? Is it not the case that the Treasury see the difficulty, but refuse to try any solution?
We do not refuse; we are trying to find a solution.
Orders of the Day
New Ministries Bill
As amended, considered.
CLAUSE 2.—(Powers and Duties of Minister of Reconstruction.)
2.—(1) It shall be the duty of the Minister of Reconstruction to consider and advise upon the problems which may arise after the termination of the present War, and for the purposes aforesaid to institute and conduct such inquiries, prepare such schemes, and make such recommendations as he thinks fit; and the Minister of Reconstruction shall, for the purposes aforesaid, have such powers and duties of any Government Department or authority, whether conferred by Statute or otherwise, as His Majesty may, by Order in Council, authorise the Minister to exercise or perform concurrently with, or in consultation with, the Government Department or authority concerned.
(2) Any Order in Council made for the purpose of this Act may be added to, varied, or revoked by a subsequent Order in Council.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), leave out the words, "whether conferred by Statute or otherwise," and insert instead thereof the words, "which have been conferred by or under any Statute."— [ Sir G. Cave. ]
I beg to move, at end of Subsection (1), to insert,
"(2) The Minister of Reconstruction shall in each year present to Parliament a Report of such of the schemes prepared and recommendations made by him as he shall deem suitable for publication."
I have other Amendments on the Paper, but I do not wish at all to detain the House. I should just like briefly to explain my Amendment. But do I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary proposes to accept the Amendment?
I beg to Second the Amendment.
We are prepared to accept the Amendment.
I beg to thank the right hon. Gentleman for his most reasonable attitude, and I do not propose to move any of my further Amendments unless the Home Secretary specially wishes to accept any of them.
Amendment agreed to
CLAUSE 3.—(Staff, Remuneration, and Expenses.)
(1) The Minister of Reconstruction may appoint such secretaries, officers, and servants as the Minister may, with the sanction of the Treasury, determine.
(2) There shall be paid, out of moneys provided by Parliament, to the Minister of Reconstruction such annual salary not exceeding two thousand pounds, and to the secretaries, officers, and servants of the Ministry such salaries or remuneration as the Treasury may determine.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), after the word "secretaries" ["to the secretaries, officers, and servants of the Ministry"] to insert the words "other than a secretary who is a Member of the Commons House of Parliament."
We had a Debate last night on the question of the appointment and pay of a Parliamentary Under-Secretary, and I drafted the manuscript Amendment which I have just read. I do not want to press this Amendment, but it gives the opportunity for the Home Secretary to state what is the policy of the Government in regard to Under-Secretaries. The real objection we all had was to a paid Under-Secretary; but if a paid Under-Secretary is not to be appointed I will gladly withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment not seconded.
CLAUSE 5.—(Power for Minister and a Secretary to Sit in Parliament.)
(1) The office of Minister of Reconstruction shall not render the person holding it incapable of being elected to, or of voting in, the Commons House of Parliament, and shall be deemed to be an office included in Schedule H. of the Representation of the People Act, 1867; in Schedule H. of the Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1868; in Schedule E. of the Representation of the People (Ireland) Act, 1868; and in Part I. of the Schedule of the Promissory Oaths Act, 1868.
(2) The person who is first appointed to be Minister of Reconstruction shall not by reason of such appointment, if a Member of the Commons House of Parliament, vacate his seat as such Member.
(3) One of the Secretaries of the Ministry shall not by reason of his office be incapable of being elected to, or of voting in, the Commons House of Parliament.
I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (3). My Amendment, I understand, will be accepted as a solution of this particular difficulty?
Yes.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I have spoken with my right hon. Friend whom it is proposed to appoint as Minister for Reconstruction on this point. He is a little afraid that if his work increases he may regret the acceptance of this Amendment, but in the circumstances the Government do not propose to oppose it.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 5A.—(Duration of Act.)
The office of Reconstruction shall cease to exist on the termination of a period of two years after the conclusion of the present War or such earlier date as may be fixed by His Majesty in Council, and then any appointments made under the powers conferred by this Act shall be determined, and any powers or duties which have been transferred to the Ministry shall without prejudice to any action taken in pursuance of those powers or duties revert to the Department or authority from which they were transferred.
I beg to move to leave out the words, "and any powers or duties which have been transferred to the Ministry shall without prejudice to any action taken in pursuance of those powers or duties revert to the Department or authority from which they were transferred."
The Committee last night decided, on the Motion of my hon. Friend opposite, that the duration of the Act should be for two years, and provided that from that date any appointment made under the terms of the previous Act shall be determined. That is quite right. Then follow the words which I am proposing to omit, because they are unnecessary.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be read the third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Expiring Laws Continuance Bill
Read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House, for Monday next.—[ Mr. J. Hope. ]
Isle of Man (Customs) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
I am sorry to delay the House on this Bill, but, if the House will recollect,, I presented a Petition to this House from the residents in the Isle of Man with regard to this particular Bill, and I am sorry that we are forced to take this discussion to-day in the absence of a large number of the Lancashire Members who, to my personal knowledge, were also desirous of raising some points upon the government of the Isle of Man in relation to this particular Bill. This Petition refers to the taxation, and, of course, I do not propose to refer to the government of the Isle of Man as a separate and Constitutional government, because that would obviously be out of order. But the Petition refers to the taxation which is levied in this Bill which we are now considering, upon which the residents in the Isle of Man have particular views. If I read the paragraph from the Petition it may convey succinctly to my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury what is the point at issue— That is a domestic matter, of course, in the Isle of Man which I cannot raise here, but it shows the intimate connection there is between the taxation raised in this Bill and the taxation which is made in the Isle of Man. The Petition goes on further to state that
After all, the only redress that any subjects of the Crown can secure is the re-dress which can be obtained through the refusal to pay taxation in one or other of the ways that occur to most of us, and of course the Isle of man is not represented in this House. It is governed by a Governor, appointed by the Crown, who looks into those matters, and therefore the people in the Isle of Man, while they are called upon to pay this taxation, have no direct voice in the levying of the taxes which they are called upon to pay. I will content myself, therefore, this afternoon by asking my hon. Friend whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction that does exist with regard to the imposition of those taxes; whether the Treasury is in touch with the feeling that exists in the Isle of Man; whether he has noted the various resolutions and petitions which have been presented to this House through many hon. Members with regard to this dissatisfaction; and whether, while he is entitled, of course, to impose taxation and to collect it, he will give us a guarantee now that while this Bill is before the House he will make definite inquiries with regard to the allegations which are made in the Isle of Man, and, as far as possible, remove the irritation that exists? I think that is a reasonable request to make. If he will give me that assurance I shall be quite content that the Second Reading be taken at once.
The affairs of the Isle of Man so seldom come before the House—indeed, this is the only occasion in the year, I think—that you, Mr. Speaker, have allowed some little latitude, no doubt, to my hon. Friend in speaking on this Bill. It is the case that, unless this Bill is passed, the taxation system of the Isle of Man would fall to the ground, and it may be—I dare say it is—the case that dissatisfaction in the Isle of Man is quite relevant from the point of view of this House to the passing or refusing of this Bill. It is upon that very point that I wish to say a word or two. My hon. Friend has spoken of the dissatisfaction existing in the Isle of Man. His authority—I think I am not wrong in saying—is contained in petitions from that island. Last year accident took me to the Isle of Man, where I spent some days amongst people who were wholly unaware that I was a Member of Parliament, and, indeed, I was wholly unaware that I should speak with regard to the Isle of Man in this House. Amongst them I naturally discussed, having an interest in public affairs, these very questions to which my hon. Friend has referred. He mentioned just now the dilatory methods of the Governor. Really it is the Lieutenant-Governor of the Isle of Man. I submit there has been no dilatory action on the part of the Lieutenant-Governor. His absence from the Isle of Man was due to regrettable ill-health.
That has nothing to do with matters upon the Customs Bill.
My hon. Friend was allowed to refer to the dissatisfaction of the inhabitants with the Government. Am I not entitled to say that such dissatisfaction is confined to a particular class of the population, namely, the lodging-house keepers from Liverpool who, being prejudiced, owing to the fact that the holiday makers from Lancashire do not now visit the Isle of Man, are anxious to upset the whole system of taxation, and it is quite true have joined with others in the Isle of Man who do desire to alter the system of taxation in the island? I submit with respect that is as relevant to this Bill as the contention of my hon. Friend that such dissatisfaction justifies opposition to the Second Reading of the Bill.
Perfectly right, but that was not at all what the hon. Member was saying. He was talking about quite other matters.
May I venture to submit that in the Isle of Man the Lieutenant-Governor is the Government?
We have nothing to do with that. It would require a Bill to alter the Constitution of the Isle of Man. We cannot discuss that situation and an alteration of the Constitution of the Isle of Man on a question of the additional tobacco duty.
That is my humble submission, but, as my hon. Friend was allowed to refer to the Home Office Report on the Constitution, and accused the Government of the Isle of Man, which is in fact the Lieutenant-Governor himself under the Constitution of the Isle of Man, I respectfully submit I am perfectly in order in rebutting what he said upon the facts, and protesting that there is no general dissatisfaction with the Government—that is to say, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Isle of Man—but that such dissatisfaction is confined to a particular class who desire to upset the Government and the system of taxation in the Isle of Man, and to introduce a system exactly similar to that prevailing in the Island of Great Britain. That is my contention, and I am obliged to you, Mr. Speaker, for having allowed me to submit my point to the House. I have received all the petitions which my hon. Friend received, and I have no doubt that in Lancashire, where those who submit these petitions really dwell, and the representatives of Lancashire are somewhat impressed by those petitions and by the volume of them, but I do not think they should be considered in this House, and it is necessary that what my hon. Friend has said should be rebutted before the Second Reading is agreed to.
There is one very important point which has not been touched upon by either of the previous speakers, and it is the fact that the economic life of the Isle of Man is largely determined by the large number of prisoners there.
Enemy prisoners?
There are many thousands of prisoners there, and they consume a large amount of tobacco, sugar, and other articles which are taxed extra here. I understand they will have to pay in some form extra taxation, and the amount of that taxation which the Isle of Man is going to receive from the prisoners and their friends is a very material amount. I have great sympathy with small nationalities like the people of the Isle of Man, and it ought to be said that in passing this Bill we are placing an additional taxation upon those prisoners which largely goes into the pockets of the people of the Isle of Man.
May I point out that sugar and tobacco are not sold in the canteens to the prisoners of war?
Well, I believe it comes into the Island, and this extra taxation will be levied in some way or other before the things are brought into the camp for the purposes of the enemy prisoners of war. If it is not so, perhaps the Secretary to the Treasury will inform us on this, point. My contention is that a large amount of taxation is being raised through these duties which comes somehow or other from the prisoners or their friends, and, therefore, an increase in the revenue of the Isle of Man is being brought in this, way.
With reference to the remarks made by the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. King), I do not think there is quite as much in this Bill to agitate him as he seems to think. Owing to the late Sitting we have had, probably he has not been able to compare the Customs Rates carefully. There was an increase in tobacco, but there is a very substantial decrease in the Customs duty on tea, and with regard to other duties the hon. Member is probably aware that in the case of several of the articles of ordinary consumption subject to Customs duties the rates levied in the Isle of Man are less than in Great Britain. This is an annual Bill, which merely ratifies the resolution passed in Tynwald. With regard to what the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) stated this Bill has to be passed during the Session in which these duties have been imposed in the Isle of Man, otherwise the duties lapse. I have had no resolution of any kind sent to me against the Bill. The Home Secretary tells me that he is aware of certain discontent amongst certain residents in the island, but that is a matter for the Home Office and not for me. My duty is simply to bring before the House, in accordance with the annual practice, this Bill to ratify what has been done, and I hope, with that information, the House will consent to the Second Reading.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[ Lord E. Talbot. ]
Fishery Harbours (Continuance of Powers) Bill
Read a second time.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[ Lord E. Talbot. ]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported without amendment; read the third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3.
Adjourned at Six minutes before One o'clock.