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Commons Chamber

Volume 97: debated on Tuesday 7 August 1917

House of Commons

Tuesday, August 7, 1917

Private Business

Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with), —Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:

Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Bill [ Lords ].

Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

Jamaica War Contribution

Copy presented of Treasury Minute, dated 2nd August, 1917, as to the application of the Jamaica War Contribution [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Infant Welfare (Grants from the Local Government Board)

Return presented relative thereto [ordered 20th March; Mr. Acland ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 127.]

Infant Welfare (Expenditure from Rates)

Return presented relative thereto [ordered 20th March; Mr. Acland ]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 128.]

Fines, Etc. (Ireland)

Copy presented of Abstract of Accounts of Fines accounted for by the Registrar of Petty Sessions Clerks for the year 1915 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Dogs Regulation (Ireland) Act, 1865

Copy presented of Accounts of Receipts and Expenditure under the Act for the year 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Belgium

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any reason to suppose either that the German Government adheres to or that it repudiates the pledge given on 4th August, 1914, that even in the case of armed conflict with Belgium Germany will under no pretence whatever annex Belgian territory?

So far as I am aware the German Government have been careful not to remind the world that they explicitly promised to Great Britain in 1914 not, under any pretence whatever, to annex Belgian territory. But, from the tenor of communications emanating from sources apparently inspired, this is a promise which, if they can, they propose to repudiate.

Would it not be worth while to discover whether or not the new Government adheres to this pledge?

:. The British Government have no means of communicating with Germany.

Station Incident (York)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to an incident in York Station on the 16th instant, when about 11 p.m. an officer seized a mug of hot coffee from a soldier's hand and, without any warning or provocation, poured the contents over the man's bare head and down his neck, and what steps have been taken to deal with this officer?

The report has been considered, and the officer having expressed his regret for the incident, it is not proposed to take any further action.

Does my hon. Friend seriously inform this House that an officer who, while on duty, pours over the head of a private soldier a cup of hot coffee, is to be let off with an expression of regret?

Are we really to take it that an officer who publicly, in a railway station, pours hot coffee over a private soldier is not to be dealt with in any way by the War Office?

I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the full report, and he will see that there are extenuating circumstances.

As there was a lady handing out the coffee, who was reduced to tears, will the officer apologise to the lady?

Is not the real explanation that the War Office is afraid of its own officers?

I do not think that my hon. Friend can make that statement with any justification, seeing that at his own request, and the instigation of some of his friends, two officers were suspended only last week.

Arising out of that latter answer, will the War Office reconsider the case of these two officers?

Military Service

Promotion of Officers

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether promotion to the rank of major has now been given to Cavalry captains of fifteen years' service, as has been done in other arms of the Service; and, if not, what are the reasons for differentiating between the different branches of the Service in this matter?

The answer is in the negative. My predecessor, the then Under-Secretary of State, went into this matter fully with my hon. and gallant Friend both in an answer on 18th April of last year and in correspondence. The Army Council do not see any reason to consider that the position has undergone any substantial change.

Does not the hon. Gentleman consider it very unfair that these officers should not only suffer in promotion, but that if they are killed their widows should lose the pension they would otherwise get. Is not that an injustice?

Bridlington Local Tribunal

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a speech recently delivered in St. John's Primitive Church, Bridlington, by Mr. J. D. Fenby, a member of the Bridlington Local Tribunal, in which he said that the establishment of compulsory military service in England was the greatest crime, and that it was high time that the War stopped, as it was having a damaging influence on Christian character; and whether, in view of the character of this language by a member of a local tribunal in the district in which he acts, he will say what steps he proposes to take in the matter?

My right hon. Friend is communicating with Mr. Fenby to ascertain whether he had in fact made the statements attributed to him.

Watchmaker's Business (Invergordon)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the Scottish Command Headquarters, when asked by a soldier who managed a watchmaker's and jeweller's business in Invergordon to grant a permit to his sister, Miss Dora Merrens, nineteen years of age, to enter that area and manage that business for him while he was serving his country with the Colours, advised him to sell the business, which was the sole means of support of the soldier's mother, father, and younger brothers and sisters; that such businesses are practically unsaleable except at great sacrifice, bringing financial ruin to this soldier while he is at the front; and whether his Department will permit the soldier's sister to manage the shop until his return?

I am afraid that I can add nothing to the reply which I gave my hon. Friend on the 30th July. As I stated then, the business in question is not, I understand, the sole support of the family.

Irish College, Rome

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, with reference to the desirability of safeguarding the Irish students of the Irish College, Rome, and of other Roman Catholic colleges in Italy, from being obliged to return to this country for Conscription or join the Italian Army, if he will say what is the exact meaning, under the international compact law, of the word "domiciled"; whether those who go to Italy merely for a course of study, with the intention of returning to Ireland when that course is completed, can be held to be domiciled in Italy; and can they be regarded as domiciled in Italy if they stay there for five, six, or seven years in pursuance of that purpose?

The construction of Acts of Parliament, including the Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Act, 1917, is a matter for the Courts and not for the War Office. It is not, however, considered that an Irish student who is resident at the Irish College, Rome, for the purpose of his education and who does not intend to remain permanently in Italy would be held by the Courts to be domiciled in Italy.

Aden (Health of Troops)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether excessive sickness prevails among the troops at Aden; and whether any recognition has been made of the gallantry of the men there in fighting against largely predominant Turkish forces?

This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India, and perhaps my right hon. Friend will address his question to him.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) whether under Army Regulation No. 393 soldiers receive 2s. 6d. per night of an allowance which does not admit of ration allowance being drawn at the same time; has therefore a soldier in Class 19 or 20 to provide hotel or other lodging accommodation and food from this 2s. 6d. per night; (2) asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether a soldier of Classes 19 and 20, under Regulation 393, is allowed 2s. 9d. per day allowance while he is provided with quarters; and, if so, can he explain why 3d. per day more is given to this man than to him getting night allowance although his outlays are less?

The maximum nightly allowance under paragraph 395 of the Allowance Regulations for Classes 19 and 20 was raised to 3s. 6d. on the 13th July last.

asked the Pensions Minister whether anything can. be done to expedite the consideration of the case of Mrs. Florence Ridgwell, whose husband died after long and meritorious Army service from disease accelerated by service in the present War; and whether he is aware that the Statutory Pensions Committee could not deal with the case because repeated applications to the local pensions committee at Divas Institute, Battersea, failed to produce any reply or any recommendation on the case from that committee?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of PENSIONS
(Colonel Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen)

The case to which the hon. Member refers was only very recently brought to the notice of the Ministry, and will be settled as soon as it has been ascertained whether Sergeant Ridgwell's illness which led to his death was aggravated by his service subsequent to his re-enlistment in October, 1915. There appears to have been some delay on the part of the local committee in dealing with the case.

Would it not be possible in such cases to expedite the action of the local committees, as letter after letter has been sent to the Statutory Committee?

Yes; we will certainly do that. This case, however, will now be dealt with by the Ministry of Pensions.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say, in connection with this question, whether applications are to be made to the Ministry of Pensions, whether the Statutory Committee has now ceased to exist, and whether the Ministry are ready to entertain applications?

I think applications are now made to the Ministry of Pensions, although, strictly speaking, the Statutory Committee is still in existence.

asked the Pensions Minister whether an officer of the rank of lieutenant-colonel of the Regular Army, holding a permanent commission, who loses by wounds two limbs or one limb and an eye would under the old Warrant receive as retired pay and wound pension £800 a year, and under the new Warrant £300 a year; and a subaltern suffering in like manner £273 a year under the old Warrant, and £175 a year under the new Warranty and, if so, will he explain the reason for the change, seeing that the new Warrant was described as a generous improvement upon the old?

No change is made by the new Warrant in the cases to which the hon. and gallant Member refers, and the figures quoted by him are incorrect. The exact figures necessarily depend on the length of the officer's service and the period of his command, but, taking minimum rates, the correct figures are: Lieutenant-colonel, £800; second-lieutenant or lieutenant, £254 15s.

Are we to understand that wounds pensions are payable in addition to the pensions given under the new Warrant; if so, who pays them, and who decides what shall be paid?

Wounds pensions are paid by the War Office, and there has been no change made in the new Warrant where the additional pension does not affect the total.

It depends upon the total amount. If it comes to a certain amount then there will be an addition; if not there will not be.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say explicitly whether an officer in these circumstances gets first his Service pension plus his disability pension, or whether he gets a combination?

It depends upon the circumstances—in most cases it is a combination.

If an officer gets more under the old than under the new Warrant, I presume he will be allowed to continue under the old Warrant?

asked the Pensions Minister whether officers now joining the Regular Army as holders of permanent commissions will have any option, in the event of their becoming entitled to a disablement pension at any subsequent date, as to whether they will be assessed under the old Royal Warrant of 1914 or will they be forced to accept the assessment of the new Warrant, if the new Warrant is approved in its present form?

An officer joining the Regular Army after the 1st August, 1917, can only be dealt with for retired pay under the Warrant of that date in respect of disability arising out of the War. The hon. and gallant Member, however, appears to be under some considerable misunderstanding. In no circumstances whatever, so far as I can discover, would an officer now joining the Regular Army with a permanent commission benefit if his disablement pension were assessed under the old Royal Warrant of 1914, instead of under the new Warrant which has just been approved. The new Warrant is more beneficial in all respects.

Questions

Shipping Freights

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he is aware that a Spanish steamer was on or about 31st July chartered for a cargo of coal from this country to Barcelona at 215s. per ton; and whether other vessels under the control and direction of the Inter-Allied Chartering Executive are only permitted to receive a freight to Algiers or Oran, approximately the same distance, of 48s. 6d. per ton?

The fixture referred to was effected, and my hon. Friend will no doubt appreciate the fact that the Inter-Allied Chartering Executive cannot effectively control the rates which are paid for cargoes to Spain carried in Spanish steamers, even if they had any interest in making the attempt. So far as neutral tonnage is concerned, the Executive do not restrict the rates to Algiers and Oran to 48s. 6d. per ton.

Will the hon. Gentleman see that our Government informs the Allies of the sacrifices we are making in this matter?

The sacrifices which are being made by this country in respect of its shipping are very well known indeed to the Allies.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether British liner steamers loading on the berth at Buenos Ayres for Liverpool are directed by the Government to charge 50s. to 52s. 6d. per ton on Government cargo; whether on cargo for civil and commercial purposes rates of freight are as high as 250s. per ton; and whether these steamers are under requisition and receive payment from the Government at Blue Book rates, all excess freights over Blue Book rates being taken by the Government?

The figures mentioned by my hon. Friend are substantially correct. The steamers in question are running under the special conditions of the Liner Requisition Scheme, which secure any profits which may accrue to the Government, the owners being paid on a Blue Book basis.

Does the consumer get any benefit from this or is the Government profiteering?

So far as the great bulk of our imports are concerned, they are made on account of the Government; therefore in respect of them the consumer directly benefits. So far as the balance—a comparatively small balance—is concerned, the Treasury benefits. This simply means that the Government takes any profit which may arise —it does not necessarily arise.

Arising out of that question and answer, how is it that the Treasury receives the benefit and not those of us who support this Government?

I am not sure that I apprehend the purport of the question of my hon. Friend. But I should like to explain that in every case where the commodities concerned are controlled by the Government so that the consumer may obtain the advantage of the Blue Book rates he gets that advantage; in cases where we cannot ensure that the consumer gets the advantage and where there is a danger of the middleman getting it, then the Treasury gets it.

Is not this profit made by the Treasury a new form of taxation, and should it not appear in the Finance Act of the year?

Does not this arrangement mean that certain trades or certain importers are having an enormous profit made out of them, while other trades and other importers are practically allowed to go free?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether all British trades have been taken control of by the Shipping Controller and all ships allowed to carry out their operations in these trades are requisitioned at Blue Book rates, the Government taking the whole of the difference between Blue Book rates and the actual freights earned by these steamers, amounting in many instances to large sums of money; whether it is admitted that Blue Book rates in various cases inflict a loss upon the owners while the Government are making large profits out of the freights earned by these steamers; whether the owners have to give their services in managing and loading these steamers without remuneration; and whether he can state what the Government do with the money that they are extracting from the shipowners by means of this system of commandeering?

All the trades embraced in the liner requisitioning scheme have now been placed under requisition. In so far as my hon. Friend's question implies that the difference between Blue Book rates and the freights earned is net profit taken by the Government, the implication is inaccurate; it is true that the Government receives the freight, but it has also to meet all charges other than those imposed by the Blue Book on the owner, and the question whether the Government makes large or, indeed, any profits will depend entirely upon the rate of loss from war casualty in the future, for the Government bears the full cost of insurance against war risks. As the hon. Member knows, the precise terms of the arrangement for the working of requisitioned liners are in process of being finally agreed; under this arrangement the intention is to reimburse the lines the actual cost of maintaining their organisations. If any profit eventually accrue to the Government as a result of the working of the liner requisitioning scheme, it will, of course, be treated as ordinary Exchequer receipts, and thus benefit the British consumer indirectly. I may add that by far the greater part of our imports are now carried for Government account, and that therefore it is not the case that the Treasury is likely to receive large sums of money in this connection.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that he is quite mistaken in what he states about Blue Book rates; and, furthermore, would it not be better, instead of taxing the shipowner in this surreptitious manner, to let the public know it is not the shipowners but the Government who are charging these high rates?

As I endeavoured to explain in my previous answer, the consumer gets the advantage of low freights on the greater part of our imports—on practically the whole of the bread and meat, and practically the whole of the commodities carried.

Will the hon. Gentleman see that the public are informed of it, and this spirit of resentment against the shipowner, which has been brought about directly by the Government methods, will be removed?

I think the public are now well aware that the profit which hitherto went to the shipowner now goes in the great majority of cases direct to the consumers, and in a smaller number of cases to the Treasury, and I think they are well content.

Has the hon. Gentleman consulted the Law Officers of the Crown as to whether it is legal to make this profit?

No, because I am given to understand it is quite unnecessary to do so.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware how very ignorant he is of what is going on, and that, as a matter of fact, an action has been started against the Shipping Controller on this very ground?

I would venture to recommend my hon. Friend to await the result of that action before proceeding any further.

asked whether the British Government, through the Ministry of Shipping, have been chartering neutral steamers at as high as 50s. to 55s. per ton per month on their total deadweight carrying capacity, and paying all excess premiums for war risk insurance over 1 per cent. per month; whether they are are now endeavouring unsuccessfully to charter neutral steamers at 47s. 6d. per ton or upwards on their total deadweight carrying capacity, our Government paying all excess premiums for war risk insurance over 1 per cent. per month; and whether British steamers of similar type and class under Government requisition are only receiving about 6s. 6d. per ton per month on their deadweight.

All time chartering of neutral steamers is effected by the Inter-Allied Chartering Executive, on which the French and Italian Governments are represented, as well as His Majesty's Government. Neutral steamers have been and are being chartered with the 1 per cent. Clause at rates which vary from 47s. 6d. to 55s., according to size, and since their appointment the executive have been successful, not only in obtaining steamers at the rate of 47s. 6d. per ton, but in maintaining the market rates for neutral chartering at approximately the same level, in spite of the increasing shortage of tonnage. The rate paid for British steamers of similar type and class under Government requisition is equivalent to about 6s. 9d. on the deadweight, but in that case the whole of the war risk is borne by the Government.

Does the hon. Gentleman see how the British shipowner is being handicapped, whilst the neutral shipowner is being helped by the Government?

So far as the Ministry of Shipping is concerned, we cannot possibly have that degree of control over foreign shipping that we have over our own shipping. Our constant effort is to remedy the grievance.

But does the hon. Gentleman not see that this inequality of handicap remains, notwithstanding the efforts of the Government?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman would not be content that, because a foreign shipowner may make an undue profit out of the exigencies of this War, we should allow others to do it.

Standard Ships

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he is aware that the Shipping Controller has consistently declined to grant interviews or give information to representatives of British news papers on matters in connection with his Department and that he recently granted an interview to representatives of the French Press, taking them into his confidence; and whether, in view of his statement that ships crossing danger zones should have a speed of fifteen knots, this is the speed which the standard vessels being built by the Government will possess?

I can assure my hon. Friend that he is quite mistaken in regard to the attitude taken by the Shipping Controller towards representatives of the British Press. The published account of the interview recently granted by him to a representative of a French newspaper was in some respects inaccurate. The last part of the question, therefore, does not arise.

But why should the French newspaper representative be told, or led to believe, that the speed of the standard ships is to be fifteen knots per hour, whilst this House and the British public are not informed on the point?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Shipping Controller cannot be responsible for the spreading of inaccurate information, but, as I explained in my answer, the interview which actually took place was somewhat inaccurately reported by the French newspaper representative.

Would it not be in the interests of the country that the Shipping Controller should inform the British Press of the true facts of the case?

As I have already explained to my hon. Friend, we have no intention to divulge the speed of the ships.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether the first standard vessel built on Government account has yet been completed and entered on service; whether he can state the total deadweight carrying capacity of this steamer and her average speed per hour at sea; and whether he can state the number of standard steamers and their deadweight tonnage and speed which is expected to be completed and ready for service during the months of August, September, October, November, and December respectively?

The first standard ship will be completed and put into service during the present month. Her total deadweight carrying capacity will be about 8,000 tons. It does not seem desirable that particulars of her speed should be given in public, but I shall be happy to inform my hon. Friend privately. The information asked for in the latter part of the question cannot be furnished.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that he has already in this House indicated what would be the speed of the standard ship?

Tonnage Space (Foreign Vessels)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller why a certain steamship was allowed to leave an American port with 3,500 tons of spare space which might have been occupied with corn or other food stuffs if a few days longer time had been permitted for filling the steamer?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for communicating to me privately the name of the vessel to which he refers. I have made inquiry, and find that she is a foreign vessel, over which we have no control, and for which we have no responsibility.

Small Holding Colonies (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether any arrangement has yet been completed by the Scottish Board of Agriculture to acquire land under the Small Holdings Colonies Act for the purpose of providing experimental small holding colonies?

The answer is in the negative. Repeated attempts have been made to secure land which is at once suitable and available, but so far without success. The difficulty lies in the fact that in the case of every estate which has been under consideration much of the land required is under leases which have a number of years to run. Accordingly, I am considering whether it may not be necessary to extend the powers contained in the Act, which are purely permissive, so as to enable the Government to make land immediately available notwithstanding that it is subject to current leases.

asked whether arrangements have now been completed for the afforestation of the Borgie estate, and when it is proposed to commence a scheme of small holdings and afforestation on this estate?

The arrangements, though in progress, are not yet completed. Plans have been laid for a scheme of small holdings and afforestation, and preliminary steps have already been taken with a view to commencing the necessary works of adaptation and equipment. Fencing, road-making, and reclamation will be proceeded with during the present year, and the expenditure of a sum of £3,500 for these and cognate purposes has been authorised. Difficulties of labour and transport have been acute; but there will be no avoidable delay in proceeding with the scheme.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any discharged soldier has yet been put upon this estate?

Small Holdings (Scotland)

asked the number of small holdings in Scotland at the date when the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, came into operation, and the number of small holdings in Scotland as at 31st December, 1916?

The number of holdings in Scotland above one acre and not exceeding fifty acres as ascertained at 4th June, 1912, was 51,866. The number of such holdings on 5th June, 1916, was 50,969. These figures do not include holdings under one acre nor holdings over fifty acres, the rent of which is under £50. In these respects they do not cover the whole definition of a small holding as denned in the Small Landholders Acts, 1886–1911. The number of new holdings constituted by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland and occupied by landholders up to 31st December, 1916, was 556, and in addition the Board were instrumental in enlarging 377 existing holdings.

Is it not the case that since the Act of 1911 was passed there has been a continuous decrease in the number of small holdings in Scotland?

There has been a decrease, but it is less than the decrease before the Act was passed.

Small Holdings Colonies Act

Discharged Soldier (Intensive Cultivation)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in the ease of Sergeant-major F. W. Hymers, who has served in the Army since 1914 and is about to be discharged on account of wounds, and who thoroughly understands intensive cultivation, he has any power under any Act to provide him with a small holding; and, if so, whether any loan will be made to him to enable him to cultivate it?

If Sergeant-Major Hymers will make application to the Department it may be possible to provide him on or after 11th October next with land for the purpose of intensive cultivation at the Holbeach Colony, a new colony under the Small Holdings Colonies Act, 1916. He can at any time apply to a county council for land under the Small Holdings and Allotments Act, 1908. There is no power to make him any loan to enable him to cultivate land.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this man has already been refused a holding by the Board of Trade, and if the Government cannot provide one single wounded man with a small holding now, how are they going to provide thousands of soldiers with small holdings when they come back from the War? Are the Government going to do nothing?

I do not know anything about the Board of Trade, but I am certain if this man will apply for a small holding either in Yorkshire or Lincolnshire his application would be carefully considered.

Question

Disabled Soldiers and Sailoes (Training)

asked the Postmaster-General whether, in view of the fact that trades advisory committees (disabled sailors and soldiers), consisting of an equal number of representatives or associates of employers and workpeople, have been set up in practically all large industries to deal with the training and employment of disabled sailors and soldiers by the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Pensions, any steps have been taken in this direction by the Post Office; and, if so, whether he is in a position to announce the names of those on the committees?

I am considering the appointment of an Advisory Committee to discuss certain questions in connection with the employment of disabled soldiers and sailors, but I am not yet in a position to make any definite announcement.

Food Supplies

Baking Trade (Control)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether it is proposed to take control of the baking trade of this country; and is he aware that this is the expressed desire of that trade?

I have no knowledge of any such intention, nor am I aware that the trade have expressed any such desire.

Raspberry Crop

asked why the maximum rate of commission to Mr. T. H. Hodge, of Blairgowrie, as agent for the Scottish raspberry crop, has been placed as high as £1 per ton when, in the opinion of the Food Controller, the reasonable commission on such consignments would be 5s. a ton; what has been the usual commission paid by private firms on such consignments in recent years; what is expected to be. the average price of the crop per ton; and what is expected to be the actual aggregate amount of the commission payable to Mr. Hodge on the basis of a crop of 3,000 tons.

The Raspberries (Jam Manufacturers' Prices) Order provides that the amount of an agent's commission shall not exceed 20s. per ton. I hoped that I had made it clear in my previous answer on this subject that while Mr. Hodge's remuneration would be generally subject to this limit the Food Controller had intimated that in his opinion 5s. per ton would be a reasonable commission on raspberries when they were delivered through associations, as those associations will themselves incur the expense and do much of the work which will be required from Mr. Hodge in the case of other transactions. The price of raspberries throughout the United Kingdom, when bought by jam manufacturers, has been fixed by the same Order at £35 a ton, and this is the price which will be paid to Scottish growers. The aggregate amount of commission payble to Mr. Hodge will not be known until the transactions are completed.

Is the hon. Member aware that Mr. Hodge is himself a large grower of raspberries, and can he say whether Mr. Hodge will get this commission on the raspberries of his own growth in addition?

That is not the point covered in the question. With regard to the first part of the supplementary question, I should say it is because he is a grower, and therefore a practical man, that his services have been requisitioned.

Feeding Stuffs

asked by what amount and what cattle feeding foods have been reduced in price by his action?

The Food Controller on Thursday last expressed his belief that subject to his obtaining tonnage for the importation of raw materials he would be able to reduce the price of feeding-stuffs to farmers; but the measures he is proposing to adopt have not yet been brought into operation.

Fish

asked the Parliamentary Secretary whether he is aware that there were condemned at Grimsby this year, and sold as manure as unfit for human food, in January 45 tons of Norwegian herrings in barrels, in February 1,083 stone of fish and 34 tons of salt herrings, in March 1,248 stone of fish and 3 tons of herrings, in April 466 tons of herrings and other fish, and in May 115 tons of fish; if he can say who is responsible for the making of these contracts and if there is any financial loss incurred; if so, on whom does it fall and what is the amount of such loss incurred during the present year; is the traffic in fish from Norway and Holland in the hands of highly-qualified experts in the preservation of fish; is it possible to preserve much of this fish food by slightly salting or otherwise treating it before being dispatched on its journey here; and will he make a full investigation into this matter at once?

The circumstances attending the loss of fish at Grimsby have already been fully investigated. As has been stated in reply to previous questions on the subject the losses are due to delays in transit. The purchases abroad are controlled by the Restriction of Enemy Supplies Department and the loss incurred, the amount of which I am unable to state, will be borne by the Exchequer. Every precaution is taken for the preservation of the fish, including the supply of salt. The agents in Norway and Holland are highly qualified experts, and of the total quantity of fish brought from Norway and Holland to the country during the first six months of 1917 the quantity condemned was less than 4 per cent.

Will he say whether any commission is paid to private firms or individuals in connection with the fish traffic, and, if so, to whom?

Is the difficulty caused by transit at sea or by the railway company?

Advertisement of Orders (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if, at the present time, when Orders about the sale and purchase of farm produce and livestock are being constantly made and altered by the Food Controller, he will consider the desirability of notices as to the Orders made being inserted in the local weekly papers in all Irish counties remote from the chief towns, as the small farmers in those counties do not read the daily papers and at present are quite in a fog as to what they can or cannot do?

I am in communication with the Ministry of Food on this subject with a view to securing more general publicity for the Orders of the Food Controller.

Flour and Bread

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the case of Messrs. Timmis and Company, Mytton Flour Mills, Montford Bridge, Salop, whose mill was burnt down last year; whether he is aware that all the materials for rebuilding are now at the mill except a small quantity, twenty-two standards of timber which is ready for use but cannot be moved without a Class A priority certificate; whether this mill is situated in the middle of one of the best corn producing districts in the country, that there is no other flour mill working for nearly twenty miles, and that a large quantity of grain is now moved by rail long distances and returned to the towns in the neighbourhood in the shape of flour; whether, in the national interest, he will consider the desirability of this mill being rebuilt at the earliest possible moment and resuming its work; and whether, under these circumstances, he will allow the certificate asked for to be issued?

This case has been fully considered, and on the facts at present before the Department I see no ground for varying the decision already reached not to recommend priority certificates. Further inquiries will be made, however, with a view to seeing if the grant of certificates would be justified.

Questions

"New Republic" (Suppression)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the editor of the "New Republic" has expressed in writing his anxiety to conform in letter and spirit to the Defence of the Realm Regulations; whether, with this object in view, he has asked to be furnished with particulars of the matter which it is considered would amount to a breach of the Regulations so that it can be expunged from the issue in question; and, if so, what answer has been made to this offer?

The answer made to the editor's request was that the Secretary of State cannot undertake to discuss in detail articles which have not been passed by the Press Bureau, and that it is for the editor to see that any articles which he may propose to publish conform both in letter and spirit to the requirements of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, Nos. 27 and 42.

Is not the editor of the paper entitled to some protection? If out of one article there was only one passage which is doubtful, surely it is only a matter of common-sense to point that out to him?

asked whether, in view of the importance of the powers of the Censor and considering the difficulty of ascertaining whether these powers are exercised with judgment and impartiality, he will set up a small Committee, either of Members of this House or of eminent journalists outside, and submit to this Committee the question whether the paper the "New Republic," for the publication of which he refused sanction, contains anything which could be rightly described as security or advances any argument against recruiting except such as derive from general philosophic expressions as to the wickedness or uselessness of war?

I wish to raise a point of Order on this question. I ask, Has a Member of this House any protection against a Minister who deliberately deceives the House, as I say that the Home Secretary certainly deceived the House in his remarks on this subject when he spoke about the scurrilous passages in this paper. I ask whether there is any protection of hon. Members of this House from a Minister standing at that box?

It is rather a vague and general question, and I am afraid I am not particularly acquainted with this matter. If the Home Secretary has not exercised proper judgment in this matter, it would be for the House to decide, and the matter could be raised on a formal and separate Motion.

In this particular case the House has no means of judging upon the face of it. The Home Secretary in this case gave a statement which was certainly not in any degree in accordance with the facts, but at the same time he refused to divulge the grounds on which he made that statement to the House. Therefore I say he has deceived the House and prevented the House from forming any judgment on that point. I ask, Is there no course?

I am not aware of any course. It is a very serious charge to make against a Minister.

Ministry of Reconstruction

asked whether the proposals of the Ministry of Reconstruction will be embodied in Bills to be presented to the House and passed as other Bills before they are acted upon, or whether, and, if so, under what conditions or in what cases the Ministry will exercise executive functions?

I would refer my hon. Friend to Clause 2 of the Bill, and to the statements which my right hon. Friend made on behalf of the Government on the Second Reading.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state a little more explicitly whether the proposals of the Ministry of Reconstruction will be embodied in Bills to be discussed in Parliament or will they be laid upon the Table of the House as Regulations and Rules, on which no discussion can possibly take place?

Industrial Unrest

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Mr. Quelch, of the so-called Workers' and Soldiers' Council, has threatened that unless their conferences are protected by the Government the pacifists will consider a drastic reprisal; whether he has any official information showing that the South Wales miners are now considering strike action and that their lead will be taken up in other quarters; and, if so, whether the Government will take steps to prevent persons from fomenting industrial troubles among the workers in industries necessary for the prosecution of the War?

These questions require and receive constant attention from His Majesty's Government, but the action to be taken depends on the circumstances, and I cannot make a general statement.

Is the present strike one of the things which Mr. Quelch stated that he would bring about unless he could get what he wanted?

I have no knowledge of the strike to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers.

Royal Naval College, Osborne

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (1) the amount of public money which has been spent on the Royal Naval College buildings and accessories at Osborne since it was started; (2) if the opinion of those parents who are satisfied with the present system has ever been considered as regards the utility and position of the Royal Naval College, Osborne, or only the censure of the minority; (3) if there is any intention of doing away with, or transferring, the Royal Naval College, Osborne; if the proposed changes are due to the recent epidemic which was equally severe in many other schools; if the proposed change is due to a wish for the revision of educational schemes; if so, whether he will consider the desirability of consulting educational experts; (4) if the Government are still building or have arranged to build additions to the Royal Naval College, Osborne, in respect of the sick bay and other buildings; (5) if any Commission has ever recently visted Osborne when the life of the Royal Naval College could be studied or only when the cadets were on leave; (6) if the late Second Sea Lord is responsible for the whole proposed changes at the Royal Naval College, Osborne; (7) if the Admiralty will give an undertaking not to make any drastic changes as regards the Royal Naval College, Osborne, without first giving Parliament the opportunity of discussing and expressing an opinion on the matter?

The question of the Royal Naval College at Osborne is under the consideration of the Board, and no final conclusions have yet been reached.

( rising at the end of Questions ): Am I now in order in stating that, owing to the unsatisfactory reply of the right hon. Gentleman, I shall raise the whole question on the Adjournment?

Recruiting

Transfer of Authority

asked the Prime Minister whether he intends to take any steps to give effect to the proposals with regard to the administration of the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917, which the Secretary of State for War has announced his readiness to accept?

If the hon. Member refers to certain promises made by the Secretary of State for War to the Select Committee, I am informed that Orders to give effect to them have already been issued, the Army Council Instruction in which they are embodied having previously been shown to the Chairman of the Committee and by him to the Committee, to whom the proposals commended themselves as carrying out the pledges. If, on the other hand, he refers to the larger question of the transfer of the responsibility for recruiting, this matter has been before the War Cabinet, who have Accepted the change in principle. The details have still to be determined.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to accept the three recommendations proposed by the Select Committee in reference to the men who have joined since 5th April?

I really must ask for notice of that question. I do not know what the Resolution is.

Has not the Leader of the House yet read the three recommendations made by the Select Committee?

The hon. Member need not proceed further. I have to confess that I have not read them.

Mesopotamia Expedition

Loading and Discharge at Basra

asked the Prime Minister what Department or what per- son is responsible for the delay in loading and discharging ships at Basra, which has involved the holding up at that place of tens of thousands of tons of shipping; whether the quarantine, the intense heat, causing labour inefficiency, could have been foreseen; and why ships with heavy stores beyond the capacity of the ship's derricks to unload have been sent to Basra, when no other power of unloading was available?

The necessity for quarantine is not one that could be foreseen. Heat is to be expected any summer at Basra, but I understand that this season it has been abnormal. The progress of discharge was also handicapped by the arrival of ships in a convoy. In spite of these disadvantages the rate of discharge compares most favourably with that of a year ago. The construction of railways in Mesopotamia has necessitated the shipment of heavy rollingstock, most of which had to be discharged by a floating crane. Additional crane power is being provided.

Who is responsible for sending ships to Basra where there is not the capacity to unload them?

:I think it is a joint responsibility of the Admiralty and the War Office.

Is my hon. Friend aware that a number of masters and members of crews of these ships are being struck down with sickness and left in hospital, and that the ships have to proceed in some cases minus masters, and in other cases minus important members of the crew, with the result that it interferes with the safe navigation of the ship?

Indian Medical Service

asked the Secretary of State for India what is the present position of Lieutenant-Colonel Carter, Indian Medical Service; is he still on service in India or is he still detained in this country; if the latter, whether it makes any difference in his pay and allowances and, if so, to what extent; and whether, in view of the praise of this officer's action by the Mesopotamia Report, he proposes that he shall be promoted or given any special recognition in view of his services to the British and Indian troops?

Lieutenant-Colonel Carter is at present employed under the Admiralty on the equipment of hospital ships. Under Indian Regulations an officer placed on special duty in this country draws somewhat less than the full pay of his substantive appointment in India. Lieutenant-Colonel Carter's deputation pay— £1,057 10s. a year—is accordingly less than that attached to the last appointment which he held in India, namely, £1,360 a year. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative, and I am in communication with the Government of India on the subject.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not feel that this one man, who was responsible for exposing the scandal of Mesopotamia, ought not to suffer either financially or in any other way as a result of his action?

Do not officers in the Indian Service regard serving at home for a time at slightly lower pay as a privilege and an advantage?

It is because I recognise that the gallant officer's services deserve some recognition that I am in communication with the Government of India with regard to his promotion or other special recognition. The difference between service in England and service in India must, according to the Regulations, obviously—and I think rightly—be represented by some difference in emolument.

Is it not a fact that Surgeon-General Sir William Babtie is serving at home on Indian pay?

Why has this officer been transferred to the Admiralty and not been kept in the Indian Medical Service?

The gallant officer has shown himself peculiarly well equipped for the service he is rendering to the Admiralty. He has been loaned to the Admiralty for the purpose of assisting in the equipment of hospital ships.

Is it not rather hard on this officer that he is receiving less pay at the Admiralty than he did in the Indian Service?

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in making this recom- mendation for the promotion of Colonel Carter he will bear in mind the fact that Colonel Carter was in independent charge of a hospital ship running between Bombay and Basra, and that consequently he had to bear none of the heat and burden of the day of going down the River Tigris in charge of wounded, which was. borne by the other officers of the Indian Medical Service, and will he recommend officers of like rank in the Indian Medical Service for promotion as well as Colonel Carter?

Questions

Medical Services (Civilian and Military)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that there is no Department responsible for the provisions of doctors to meet the medical requirements of the civilian population; whether the War Office has called up civilian doctors irrespective of civilian needs; that, owing to the defective organisation of the Royal Army Medical Corps, the services of doctors who have joined the Army are not utilised to the fullest extent; and whether he will appoint a competent authority to adjudicate, between the competing claims of the Royal Army Medical Corps and the civilian population, as has already been done in the case of agriculture?

There is a Committee appointed for this purpose under the Military Service Act, which is the competent authority under that Act. I think my hon. and gallant Friend is under a misapprehension in supposing that the War Office calls up doctors irrespective of civil needs or that the fullest and best use is not made of the doctors serving on the various fronts.

Has any estimate been formed of the number of qualified medical men who are serving as privates in the ranks?

No; I do not think that any estimate has been formed, but every inducement is being given to qualified men in the ranks to take commissions in the Royal Army Medical Corps.

Balkans

asked the Prime Minister whether, as a result of the recent Allied conferences on questions relating to the Balkans and our war policy in the Near East, he will make a statement in Secret Session before the Adjournment of the House?

Retired Officer's Employment

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that Captain William Stanley Shaw, 10th Middlesex Regiment, served over two years in the Territorials during the present War besides previous years of service and was retired on account of ill-health at the age of forty-seven, and has applied for employment to the Food Controller, National Service Department, Ministry of Munitions, Board of Trade, War Office, and Home Office, he can say why no employment can be found for this officer, in view of the fact that he has served his country and has had over twenty years' business training and has a knowledge of foodstuffs; and can he see his way to utilising the services of this officer?

I understand that Captain Shaw has applied to the Departments named in the question, but he has not been considered suitable.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether he knows anything about this case?

As the result of the question I have made inquiries, and I have seen some letters from the gentleman named which suggest to me that he would not be a suitable employé.

National Insurance Act

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the increased cost of living, he will, by legislation or otherwise, take steps to increase the disablement benefit of 5s. per week, as paid under the provisions of the National Insurance Act, by at least 50 per cent?

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the question of increasing the scale of benefits under the Insurance Act, pari passu with the scale of pensions, to meet the increased cost of living?

I have been asked to answer these questions. To increase the rates of benefit under the National Insurance Acts, as suggested, would involve a large increase in the contribution both of employers and employed, and any such change is not in contemplation.

Lord Haldane

asked the Prime Minister whether Lord Haldane is now employed in any kind of work by the Government or in any kind of employment with which the Government is connected?

Lord Haldane has for some time been serving on a Subcommittee of the Reconstruction Committee, but, as I have already stated, these Sub-committees have been appointed to give confidential information and advice to the Government, and it is not thought desirable that the constitution, terms of reference or reports of these Committees should be made public.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Lord Haldane is thoroughly distrusted by the people?

Could the right hon. Gentleman inform us on which of the Subcommittees Lord Haldane is serving?

My hon. Friend must see that the idea of keeping them private cannot continue if particular questions are put and answered. I thought it better to say frankly that he was being employed rather than give an evasive answer.

Why should the matter be secret? What is the secrecy about it? Is not the country entitled to know?

I am sure my hon. Friend will understand that it is an open question whether a thing of this kind when it is being done not for the purpose of immediate action but for the purpose of giving advice to the Government, should be made the subject of discussion.

Will the new Minister of Reconstruction be at liberty to reverse the policy in this respect and to have public Committees of trusted and well-known persons?

I am quite sure that the hon. Gentleman will not fail to avail himself of the opportunity of putting questions to the Minister of Reconstruction.

Mr. Arthur Henderson (Visit to Paris)

asked the Prime Minister whether two Government officials accompanied the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle to Paris; and, if so, can he state who they were and why they went?

My right hon. Friend the Member for Barnard Castle was accompanied only by his private secretary and a messenger.

Excess Profits Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether in view of the restriction of profits of shipping concerns and some armament firms, the Government have claimed full Excess Profits Duty from John Lysaght, Limited, whose profits increased from £401,000 in 1915 to £618,312 in 1916; whether this firm is supplying the Munitions Department; and, if so, why have they, apparently, received exceptionally favourable treatment?

I have no special knowledge of the company to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers and, as he will readily understand, it is not possible for me to discuss the details of the taxes paid by particular taxpayers.

Troops (Colonial Messing Rates)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the troops which went out in His Majesty's transport "Ascanius" this spring to India were detained in South Africa for five weeks, during which time the officers received only English rates of pay, whilst they were obliged to pay Colonial rates for messing; and whether he will take steps to see that this is remedied?

It is considered that the pay and allowances should suffice, but I will inquire and let my hon. and gallant Friend know the result.

Malicious Damage, Breaghwy, Castlebar

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether on the 13th or 14th July a conifer tree, the property of an officer in His Majesty's Forces, at the entrance gate of his residence at Breaghwy, near Castlebar, was stripped of its branches and a Sinn Fein flag erected; whether he will consider the possibility of taking steps to secure the punishment of such contempt for His Majesty's uniform and the imposition of penalties for malicious damage done to the tree; and what steps have been taken for the discovery of the person or persons concerned?

During the night of 13th July some disorderly person or persons put up a flag on a tree as the question suggests, and cut away some branches of the tree. A police patrol discovered the flag and destroyed it. The legal procedure in respect of malicious damage cannot be set in action by the Executive, but is open to the aggrieved person.

Education Grant (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, under the provisions of the new equivalent Grant, it is proposed to give the same scale of salaries, the same increments, and the same personal allowances to the six organisers of Irish language instruction as to the junior inspectors, in view of the fact that in actual practice, though not in name, they have to act as inspectors of Irish?

The Commissioners of National Education do not propose to give the same scale of salaries, increments, and personal allowances to organisers of Irish language instruction in national schools as that given to junior inspectors, but an improvement in the scale of pay is under consideration.

Land Purchase (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether about ten years ago the tenants on the Verschoyle estate, near Athy, county Kildare, came to an agreement with their landlord to purchase their holdings, part of the terms of agreement being that one year's rent was forgiven and half a year's rent added to the purchase money; that the yearly rent of Andrew Darby, one of the tenants, was £72 15s., and the interest on the purchase money was £64 5s.; that Darby paid three half-year's interest to the landlord at this rate; that the fourth half-year's interest was refused on the ground that the landlord did not lodge Darby's agreement with the Estates Commissioners, and that the landlord then demanded £122, being one and a half years' rent, plus the difference between the interest and the old rent; that he has now taken eviction proceedings against him; and whether, before the Estates Commissioners pay the purchase money to the landlord and vest their holdings in the tenants, steps will be taken to secure to Andrew Darby the benefit of the Land Purchase Act?

Proceedings for the direct sale of the estate referred to were instituted and purchase agreements were lodged with the Estate Commissioners in November, 1907. Up to the present no agreement has been lodged for the purchase of Andrew Darby's holding, and the Commissioners have no information as regards any proceedings which the owner may have instituted against Darby. The estate has not yet been reached in its order of priority, but when reached the Commissioners will consider the cases of any tenants who may not have signed purchase agreements.

The purchase agreement having been signed in this case, can the right hon. Gentleman explain why it was the landlord did not lodge this particular agreement with the others?

If the landlord has not complied with his legal obligation in that respect I should suppose it is open to the tenant to proceed against him, but I do not think I could go into a matter of that kind.

Will the right hon. Gentleman put the case before the Estates Commissioners and get them to inquire into it?

I have put it before the Estates Commissioners and the answer I have given is the answer that results from their inquiries.

National Expenditure

Ordered, "That Mr. George Faber be discharged from the Select Committee on National Expenditure, and that Mr. MacCaw be added to the Committee."— [ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]

Parker's Divorce Bill; [Lords]

Message to the Lords to request that their Lordships will be pleased to communicate to this House Copies of the Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings, together with Documents deposited, in the case of Parker's Divorce Bill [ Lords ].— [ Mr. Clyde. ]

Richmond (Surrey) Electricity Supply Bill [Lords]

Reported, without amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the third time.

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

( by Private Notice ) asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the sixth Order on the Paper to-day, Supply—Committee, is put down with a view to economising time in the House, and whether an opportunity will be given on the Report stage next week to raise the question on the Army Medical Vote, of which notice has already been given by Members?

It is suggested for the convenience of the House that the Committee should agree to pass the three Votes on the Paper to-night without discussion. The Report of these three Votes could then be taken immediately on the last day for concluding Supply Reports. The House would thus gain the time that is usually spent reading and postponing a number of Votes until those that it wants to discuss are reached.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Ways and Means Vote is for the purpose of raising the question of the Loan?

Yes. It is merely a formal stage, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, of passing a Loan Bill.

Corn Production Bill

As amended, further considered.

CLAUSE 15.—(Definitions.)

For the purposes of this Act—

( a ) the expression "agriculture" includes the use of land as grazing, meadow, or pasture land, or orchard, or osier land, or woodland, or for market gardens or nursery grounds, and the expression "agricultural" shall be construed accordingly; and

( b ) the expression "cultivation" includes use for grazing, meadow, or pasture; and the expression "cultivate "has a corresponding meaning; and

( c ) the expression "workmen" includes boys, women, and girls; and

( d ) the expression "quarter" means, in the case of wheat, four hundred and eighty imperial pounds, and in the case of oats three hundred and twelve imperial pounds.

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph ( c ), to insert a new paragraph:

"( d ) the expression 'employment' means employment under a contract of service or apprenticeship and the expressions 'employ' and 'employer' shall be construed accordingly, and"

This is a definition taken from the National Health Insurance Act, and is intended to exclude from the operation of the Bill persons not employed, in the ordinary sense of employment, on agricultural work, such as persons employed by a local authority.

Does this include farmers' sons who may be possibly assisting their fathers in work on farms? It would be a very large number. I believe there are about 97,000 of them, and some of them are believed to be under contracts of service, while others are not. I want to know whether the President excluded that class in forming his estimate, which I thought was a very high one, of the additional cost of raising the minimum wage to 30s. Was that class included or excluded in his calculations?

The class of farmers sons was excluded. Whether they are equally excluded under this definition I am not sure. It entirely depends on the contract of service. Very often a farmer pays his son pocket money rather than actual pay.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 16.—(Application to Scotland and Ireland.)

(1) This Act shall apply to Scotland with the following modifications:

( a ) The Board of Agriculture for Scotland shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries;

( b ) A separate Agricultural Wages Board shall be established for Scotland; and the separate Board so established shall be substituted for the Agricultural Wages Board;

( c ) The Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, shall be substituted for the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908;

( d ) The Chairman of the Scottish Committee of the Surveyors' Institution shall be substituted for the President of the Surveyors' Institution; and

( e ) The "Edinburgh Gazette" shall be substituted for the "London Gazette."

(2) This Act shall apply to Ireland with the following modifications:

( a ) References to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall be construed as references to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland;

( b ) A separate Agricultural Wages Board shall be established for Ireland; and the separate Board so established shall be substituted for the Agricultural Wages Board; a reference to an adequate rate shall be substituted for the reference to the rate of at least twenty-five shillings a week, and the provisions as to the retrospective effect of a minimum rate of wages for able-bodied men shall not apply;

( c ) In the application to Ireland of Section three, Sub-section (3), the penalty shall be a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, or a period of imprisonment not exceeding six months:

( d ) Where a person other than the occupier was, on the first day of September in the year in which wheat or oats were produced, entitled under a conacre agreement to the use of the land on which they were produced, that person shall be substituted for the occupier for the purpose of any payments in respect of the wheat or oats under Part I. of this Act;

( e ) Part III. of this Act in its application to Ireland shall have effect subject and without prejudice to the provisions of the Land Law (Ireland) Acts, and, in fixing the judicial rent of a holding after the passing of this Act, the Court shall not take into consideration the operation of Part I. or Part II. Of this Act as respects the holding or tenant;

( f ) Part IV. of this Act in its application to Ireland shall have effect subject to the following further modifications:

For the purpose of enforcing proper cultivation of land in Ireland the additional provisions set out in the Second Schedule to this Act shall have effect as if they were included in Part IV. of this Act;

( g ) The "Dublin Gazette" shall be substituted for the "London Gazette."

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out paragraph ( b ), and to insert instead thereof

"( b ) Sub-section (1) of the Section of this Act relating to the establishment of a Wages Board shall not apply to Scotland, and in lieu thereof the provisions contained in the Second Schedule of this Act shall be deemed to be incorporated in Part H. of this Act."

This Amendment is put down in fulfilment of an undertaking the right hon. Gentleman gave when he accepted the principle of an Amendment moved in Committee. I must take exception to it, because, in my view, it does not at all carry out the undertaking. It was urged universally by all the Scottish Members that Wages Boards were unsuitable for Scotland, that these boards should not be constituted in Scotland and that Scotland must rely upon the voluntary system, which has been in operation for a considerable time, to the very great satisfaction of everybody concerned. The right hon. Gentleman, as I certainly understood, accepted the principle of that Amendment. There was not a single word in that Amendment about the minimum wage. It was a suggestion that the Joint Committee should be adopted as the authority in Scotland. As I understand it the right hon. Gentleman does not propose to do that at all, but proposes to take the joint committees which are now in existence in some areas in Scotland, and, if they are found to be suitable, to make them Wages Boards and give them all the powers under Part II. of the Act. There is nothing in the Amendment, the principle of which he accepted in favour of that. There is everything against it. The Mover of the Amendment quoted the Report of the Food Production Committee, in Scotland, which endorsed this system of Wages Boards, and pointed out that they were the best system to apply to Scotland under the present conditions. I think my hon. Friend is familiar with the quotation from the Third Report, in which they endorse the recommendation they made to a similar effect in their Second Report. The Whitley Committee suggested a similar means of meeting a question of this kind. The Agricultural Council for Scotland takes exactly the same view. It has considered the Bill and believes the proposed Wages Board in Part II. could not usefully be applied to the conditions prevailing in Scotland. I have more than one letter from the secretary of the Labourers' Union in Scotland, pointing out that Wages Boards are not desired by anyone. There is no demand for them and we ought not to impose them upon Scotland. On the 11th May he wrote to me to the following effect: the Bill so far as Scotland is concerned. The right hon. Gentleman said he accepted the principle underlying the Amendment, though he did not see his way to accept the precise terms in which it was couched. He said: these formal and compulsory powers over all their neighbours which they were never intended to have.

The Scottish Farm Servants' Union proposed that:

We must get rid of the words in the Bill. I will put first the Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

The Question now is, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill." I will put the hon. Member's Amendment to the proposed Amendment— to leave out the whole of the Amendment on the Paper, in order to insert the words "Part II. of this Act shall not apply to Scotland."

I think my hon. Friend is under a complete misapprehension in regard to the purpose of the Amendment which I have moved. The purpose of my Amendment, to which he has moved that Amendment, is simply the preliminary to the substitution of the proposed statutory arrangement in accordance with the pledge which I gave, and which has the effect of rendering the first Sub-section (1) relating to the establishment of Wages Boards inapplicable to Scotland. My hon. Friend says that my Schedule does not completely carry out the pledge which I gave. I do not agree with him, and I think it is significant that not a single Scottish Member who is in the House has supported the view which he has put forward. When I remember that the Schedule which I have put down has been considered by, and, as I understand, entirely approved of by the secretary of the Farm Servants' Union, then I do not think I can say any more in order to convince my hon. Friend that he is quite wrong. I fail to understand the objection that he has to my Schedule. If he has any real objection to it, then I invite him to state that objection when we come to the Schedule. In the meantime, the purpose of my Amendment is to leave out Sub-section (1), and if he has any views in regard to Part II. of the Bill he can state that view when the Schedule is discussed. Having had the opportunity of conferring with my Scottish colleagues, and having submitted the Clause to the secretary of the Farm Servants' Union, and as they have been entirely satisfied, I am surprised that my hon. Friend has taken up this attitude without having even told me that he had this objection.

I was not able to find the right hon. Gentleman last night to inform him of my intention, but I did inform his secretary.

I do not press the point at all, but I should have been glad to have seen my hon. Friend and to have convinced him privately that he is mistaken in his interpretation of my Amendment, without taking up the time of the House. I cannot accept the Amendment, and I would invite him not to press his Amendment after my explanation, and having regard to the view of his Scottish colleagues and the secretary of the union in which he is interested.

It is rather a difficult question, and I think my hon. Friend's objection arises entirely from the fact that he would like the existing system to continue without any change. I do not know that that is possible under the present circumstances. The boards which now exist will obviously, I should think, be recognised under the right hon. Gentleman's Schedule. There must be some kind of machinery to set up boards where they do not exist. Whether the Secretary for Scotland has provided them in the best possible way in the Schedule I do not know. I do not see how the difficulty can be overcome in any other way. I hope that the Board of Agriculture, in carrying out these provisions, will try, as far as possible, to get the same class of Committee and the same kind of people with the same percentage of representatives of Labour and so on. That arrangement has been successful and satisfactory.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment negatived.

Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph ( c ), to insert the words,

"Provided that where under this Act the Board of Agriculture for Scotland is a party to the arbitration, the sheriff principal of the sheriffdom in which the land affected is situate shall, in the Second Schedule to the first-mentioned Act, be substituted for the Board."

When we discussed this matter in Committee, I had an Amendment on the Paper to Clause 7, which dealt with this matter rather more drastically than the Secretary for Scotland is doing in this proposal. I was under the impression that he had consented on that occasion to place words in the Bill on the Report stage, substituting the sheriff-principal in all cases for the Board of Agriculture. It is obvious that the Board of Agriculture could not be permitted to appoint the arbitrator in a case in which they had a personal and direct interest. That is the only point which is dealt with by the Secretary for Scotland's Amendment. He expressly excludes, as naturally he would do, the Board of Agriculture from appointing the judge in all cases to which it was a party; but I rather wanted to go further, and to allow the sheriff-principal to appoint these arbitrators in all cases, and certainly the OFFICIAL REPORT distinctly shows that the right hon. Gentleman agreed to do so. He said:

"I shall be prepared to accept it in a form providing that where, under the Act, the Board of Agriculture for Scotland has to nominate the arbitrator, the sheriff-principal of the district in which the holding affected is situate shall in the Second Schedule to the first mentioned Act be substituted for the Board."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st July, 1917, cols. 1976–7, Vol. XCVI]

The right hon. Gentleman informs me, and I accept his statement absolutely without any qualification, that that is a misprint, that he has been misreported in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and that when he read the Debate the following morning he made a correction which places the matter in the light in which he intended it, and, as I have no doubt, he expressed it. It was not unnatural, however, seeing that we were in a hurry at the time, that the words "in cases in which they were interested," or words to that effect, were not heard. I now know that the right hon. Gentleman was speaking from a brief which had contained this identical Clause now upon the Paper, and it is not possible under the circumstances that he could have made any mistake about it. I do not know whether he intends to widen it or not. I should like him to do so if he can. At any rate, I entirely exonerate him from the pledge which he gave to me, as recorded in the OFFICIAL REPORT, and I throw myself entirely on his mercy.

4.0 P.M.

I am very much obliged to the hon. Baronet. It is quite true that in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the 31st of July, column 1970, I am reported as using the words which have been quoted, but as my hon. Friend has said, I read the words which I was prepared to put into the Bill from the paper which was before me, and these words were in precisely the same form as my Amendment in the Paper today, and several of my hon. Friends who are present will bear me out. I would ask my hon. Friend not to press this Amendment, remembering the circumstances in which the Bill now stands. It is quite true that this was an Amendment of substance as regards the Bill when it was introduced, because under Clause 6 of the Bill the proposal was that the Board in each country should decide the question which was raised. However, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Agriculture came, to the conclusion that that would not be an appropriate system. Accordingly the Bill now provides that questions will be decided by an arbiter in England appointed by the Board of Agriculture. When we come to Scotland the analagous provision would be that questions should be decided by an arbiter appointed by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland. Accordingly I am making a concession to my hon. Friend when I say that in cases where the Board of Agriculture is a party, the arbiter should be nominated not by the Board but by the Sheriff of the county. In England the English Board nominates the arbiter whether the Board is or is not a party to the arbitration. The point I wish to make is that there was substance in my hon. Friend's contention when the Board was to decide between the parties. But there is not such force in the contention when the proposal is that the Board should nominate the arbiter. However, I am willing to meet my hon. Friend and to provide that in Scotland the Board shall not even nominate the arbiter as the Board in England does. Having made that concession to my hon. Friend, I trust that he will not press the matter.

I have not moved an Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: Leave out the words, "Chairman of the Scottish Committee of the Surveyors' Institution," and insert instead thereof the words, "Sheriff Principal of the Sheriffdom in which the land affected is situate."—[ Mr. Munro. ]

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words:

"( f ) Part III. of this Act shall have effect subject to and without prejudice to the provisions of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts, 1886 to 1911, and in fixing the rent of a holding the Scottish Land Court shall not take into consideration the operation of Part I. or Part II. of this Act;

( g ) The provisions of Part IV. of this Act with respect to the determination of tenancies shall not apply to land in the occupation of a landholder or a statutory small tenant under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts, 1886 to 1911, but the powers of entering on and taking possession of land and cultivating the land, or adapting it for cultivation, conferred by this Act may, notwithstanding anything in Part IV. of this Act, be exercised in respect of land in such occupation;

( h ) Where a tenant of shootings is, or under the operation of Part IV. of this Act becomes, the only tenant of land, the owner of the land shall for the purposes of the said Part IV., if the Board of Agriculture for Scotland so by order decide, be deemed to be the occupier thereof, and the Board's power to suspend any covenant or condition of the contract of tenancy shall in such case be deemed to include a power to determine the tenancy or any such covenant or condition and to make such provisions as the Board think fit for the adjustment of the relations of landlord and tenant."

I desire to ask an explanation of the latter half of paragraph

( g ). It refers to the powers of entering on and taking possession of land and says that they may, notwithstanding anything in Part IV. of this Act, be exercised. This seems to me to involve a contradiction and to mean that the powers conferred by Part IV. are to be exercised notwithstanding anything in Part IV.

The matter is comparatively simple. Taking the first part of paragraph ( g ) it is impossible under Clause 9 to terminate a tenancy which is a statutory tenancy except for statutory reasons. On the other hand, landowners are hoping to receive grants under Part I. of the Act, and in my view they should be subject to some corresponding compulsion with regard to qualifications in addition to Clause 1 of the Act. This Clause is largely modelled on the Irish Clause. In Ireland the power proposed to be given here is given. In addition, in the Irish Clause there is a proportionate amount of additional tillage imposed upon the Irish tenant. In Scotland that is not feasible because, as my hon. and learned Friend knows, there may be no extra land upon the holding available for tillage in the Highlands of Scotland. Therefore the addition I have made in Scotland falls short of that which is to be found in the Irish Clause, but I think that if there is any inconsistency between the first and second part my hon. Friend might perhaps imagine words which might be an improvement.

Are these powers which are referred to in the last few lines of the paragraph the powers which are conferred by Part IV.? If so, why do you not say so? It is a matter of words.

I think that it is a matter of words. I will certainly consider the point raised by the hon. and learned Member, and if it is found that there is any real difficulty it can be put right in another place.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: At the end of Sub-section (2), paragraph (

"except that the Agricultural Wages Board for Ireland in fixing a minimum rate of wages for able-bodied men may, if they think proper, direct that the rate so fixed shall operate as from such earlier date as may be specified by them, not being a date prior to the passing of this Act, and in that event the said provisions shall apply as respects that rate with the substitution of a reference to the date so specified for the reference to the commencement of this Act,"—[ Mr. Duke. ]

I beg to move to leave out paragraph ( c ).

This paragraph was inserted by consent on the suggestion of the hon. Member for Sligo. Since then the form of the Bill has been altered in a way which makes that proviso superfluous. The law with regard to summary jurisdiction differs somewhat in England and in Ireland. The Summary Jurisdiction Act of 1879 does not apply to Ireland. There is nothing in the general provisions of the Act which empowers the substitution of a fine for imprisonment. On the Report stage my right hon. Friend has amended the Act so that the words which were put in at the instance of the hon. Member for Sligo are superfluous.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, at the end of paragraph ( d ), to insert the following paragraph,

( e ) Questions and amounts requiring to be determined for the purposes of Part III. or Part IV. of this Act shall be determined by the Irish Land Commission on the application of any person interested instead of by arbitration, and the powers and jurisdiction exercisable by the Land Commission in relation to applications under the Land Law (Ireland) Acts may be exercised by the Land Commission in relation to any applications under this provision."

In the case of Ireland, in reference to disputes on questions which may arise under Part III. in respect of alleged increase of rent by reason of the provisions of the Act and Part IV. in respect of entry on land by the Department of Agriculture, there is provision for the reference of those disputes to one tribunal. The law in reference to arbitration is somewhat different in Ireland and in England. In England there is not any tribunal corresponding to the Land Commission in Ireland, which is able to deal with the very class of disputes which are is question. It is desirable to have some uniform mode of dealing with those disputes, and to refer them to one tribunal and not to various tribunals.

I desire to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on this Amendment, which is exactly the kind of Amendment I should desire to have in regard to Scotland. In Ireland you have an impartial judicial authority deciding questions under Part III. and Part IV. That is an infinitely better system than the system that we have to take for England and Scotland of having a separate arbitrator for every question, so that there is to be no uniformity of any kind, no continuity of decision, no means of ascertaining the law of any number of decisions. It is a most rudimentary system, which may have some advantages but none compared with the enormous disadvantages which it entails. It is most unfortunate that England and Scotland should have a system so greatly inferior to that of Ireland. I congratulate Ireland on having received an absolutely more scientific and more admirable arrangement.

The Land Commission will have to deal with two specific matters—first, cases where rent is affected by the Act, and, second, where the Department of Agriculture propose to take up land. The Land Commission have been dealing with questions of rent for nearly forty years and ought to know something about it, but with regard to the other point there is nothing to show by what particular rules of procedure their decisions are going to be arranged.

I think the right hon. Gentleman is to be congratulated on his Amendment, which is a very great improvement on the original proposal. Anybody who has had any experience of arbitrations under the Land Act of 1870 knows how exceedingly complicated they were. Now we are getting under the more recent Land Act, a system under which things are dealt with more efficiently and satisfactorily to everybody.

In answer to the question of my hon. Friend opposite I would say that this is relatively a simple question that has to be dealt with, namely, whether there has been damage sustained by reason of the exercise of the powers of the Department of Agriculture, and if so what is the amount of damage? The desirability of having this uniform system is that it will avoid an enormous expenditure on arbitration, and the advantages are so great that hon. Members from Ireland have generally concurred in this proposal, that will be of advantage to that country.

I would like to know if the Amendment now proposed will deal satisfactorily with a matter which has been brought up more than once, that is in regard to cases where voluntarily the landowner is given abatement of the judicial rent for a considerable time, and where, as long as the existing landlords remain, those abatements of the judicial rent will be continued. But, supposing, in one of those cases, the landlord died, the incoming landlord might say, "I shall not continue these abatements, and I shall exact are full rent that, you were paying before you got the temporary abatement." Is the Chief Secretary satisfied in his own mind that the Amendment will cover such cases, and safeguard these people against a future landlord refusing to continue the temporary abatements, and saying to them, "I am now in possession, and I shall not continue them"?

It would be impossible to formulate a Clause in the Act of Parliament to obtain precisely what my hon. Friend has mentioned, but I think I may say that a claim in equity on the part of the tenant for the continuance of the abatement that has been set up by agreement between him and his landlord could be regarded by the tribunal which is here under review—

If it is an understanding, then this tribunal in all likelihood could give better effect to it than any other that I can conceive.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In paragraph ( e ), at the end, insert the words "Proceedings by way of ejectment for non-payment of rent shall be deemed to be proceedings for enforcing payment of rent within the meaning of Part III. of this Act."

In paragraph ( f ), leave out the words "( i ) the amounts required to be determined for the purposes of Part IV. shall, in default of agreement, be determined by arbitration in accordance with the provisions of Section 25 of the Landlord and Tenant (Ireland) Act, 1870, and the Schedule to that Act."

In sub-paragraph (ii), leave out the words "both as respects land in the occupation of a tenant and as respects land not in the occupation of a tenant," and insert instead thereof the words "whether the occupier in default is or is not a tenant." — [ Mr. Duke. ]

NEW SCHEDULE.

Constitution of Agricultural Wages Committees in Scotland.

1. The Board of Agriculture for Scotland (in this Schedule referred to as the Board) may from time to time divide Scotland into districts and combinations of districts, and fix such districts and combinations for the purposes of this Schedule.

2. Where and so long as the Board are satisfied that in any district fixed by them a representative joint committee, comprising a chairman and representatives of employers of agricultural labour and of workmen employed in agriculture in equal numbers, exists for purposes which include the fixing of minimum rates of wages for workmen employed in agriculture, the Board may recognise and certify that committee as a district wages committee for the district.

3. Where in any district, after a date to be fixed by the Board, the Board are satisfied that no representative joint committee as aforesaid exists in the district, the Board may proceed to nominate a joint committee, constituted as aforesaid, for the district, and the committee so nominated shall be certified by the Board as the district wages committee for the district. Provided that the Board may require any committee so nominated to demit office if at any time they are satisfied that a representative joint committee exists in the district in terms of the immediately preceding paragraph.

4. The Board shall, for the purpose of constituting a central agricultural wages committee for Scotland (hereinafter referred to as "the central committee"), combine districts so as to form five combination districts from each of which two representatives of district wages committees within the combination, one of whom shall represent employers and the other workmen, shall be elected by the district committees under a scheme

5. Subject as hereinafter provided, a district wages committee shall, within its district, have the powers and duties conferred and imposed on the Agricultural Wages Board by or under this Act, except any of such powers and duties which the Board may by Regulation reserve to and confer and impose on the central committee, and references in this Act to the Agricultural Wages Board shall be construed accordingly as references to district wages committees or the central committee, as the case may be.

6. Every decision of a district wages committee fixing a minimum rate of wages shall be reported to the central committee and to the Board, and if the central committee do not disallow the same within a period to be prescribed by the Board, the minimum rate so fixed shall be deemed to be the minimum rate fixed under this Act.

7. Where a district wages committee fail within a period to be prescribed by the Board to fix minimum rates of wages for time work within the district the Board shall refer the question of fixing such rates to the central committee, and thereupon the powers and duties of the district wages committee to fix such rates shall, so far as required for the purposes of the reference, be transferred to the central committee, and any rate fixed under such a reference by the central committee after consultation with the district wages committee shall be deemed to be the minimum rate fixed under this Act.

8. Any other question within their jurisdiction under this Act on which a district wages committee fail to agree shall, if the representatives of the employers or the representatives of the workmen on the committee so request in writing, be referred to the central committee by the district wages committee for decision, and any decision by the central committee on such a reference shall be reported to the Board and shall have the like effect and validity as if it were the decision of the district wages committee.

9. The Board may by Regulation prescribe the tenure of office and procedure Mr. Munro. ]

Brought up, and read the first time.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Schedule be read a second time."

I think we ought to have some explanation from the Secretary for Scotland in regard to a point I have already raised on this Schedule. In England there is a Central Wages Board with powers to constitute district committees, but in Scotland the Secretary for Scotland will have almost arbitrary powers, and will appropriate the powers given under Part II, of this Bill. How does the right hon. Gentleman meet the objections raised in regard to applying Part II. to Scotland? How does this Schedule meet those objections? The Secretary for Scotland is simply taking to himself arbitrary powers in the appointment of these Wages Boards. That is the only difference. As I said, in the case of England the Central Wages Board has the power of appointing district committees, but in Scotland the Secretary for Scotland takes that power. The right hon. Gentleman does not realise that Part II. is not brought in at all; there is nothing said about Part II. I wish to say that the secretary of the Farm Servants' Union did not understand the meaning of this Schedule.

I am very much surprised to hear from my hon. Friend that the secretary to the Farm Servants' Union did not understand this Schedule, and, if I may venture to say so, he understands it very much better than my hon. Friend, because it was fully explained to him, as I should have been glad to explain it to my hon. Friend if he had given me an opportunity. The Schedule, in my judgment, exactly carries out the pledge I gave, and I very much doubt whether any of my Scottish colleagues would agree with my hon. Friend. The Schedule provides that where these conciliation committees are in existence to-day, and the Board is satisfied with their constitution, they shall continue to perform the useful functions they are now performing, along with other powers conferred upon them either by or for the Board of Agriculture. It is only in the event of such a committee not being formed in a particular locality, and within the time prescribed by the Regulations, that the Board of Agriculture will come upon the scene, and set up a Committee, and so ensure that there shall be machinery in every part of the country for the purpose of fixing the minimum wage. There is no interference with any of those Committees, as they at present exist, unless and until the Board is satisfied that it is not a proper Committee. The Committees are recognised as they stand to-day, and they will go on with the work they are doing, with the additional duties imposed upon them. How in these circumstances my hon. Friend can say that these Committees are to be turned compulsorily into Wages Boards, honestly, I fail to see. I invite my hon. Friend with very great respect to study the Schedule again, and, after he has done so, I think he will change the views he has expressed to the House to-day.

Question put, and agreed to.

Proposed Schedule added to the Bill.

First Schedule

Sections 11, 12, 13, and 17 of the Trade Boards Act, 1909

Constitution, Proceedings, etc., of Wages Board.

11.—(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may make regulations with respect to the constitution of the Agricultural Wages Board, which shall consist of members representing employers and members representing workmen (in this Act referred to as representative members) in equal proportions and of the appointed members.

(2) Women shall be eligible as members of the Agricultural Wages Board as well as men.

(3) The representative members shall be elected or nominated, or partly elected and partly nominated, as may be provided by the regulations.

(4)The chairman of the Agricultural Wages Board shall be such one of the members as the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may appoint, and the secretary of the Agricultural Wages Board shall be appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries.

(5) The proceedings of the Agricultural Wages Board shall not be invalidated by any vacancy in their number, or by any defect in the appointment, election, or nomination of any member.

(6) In order to constitute a meeting of the Agricultural Wages Board, at least one third of the whole number of the representative members and at least one appointed member must be present.

(7) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may make regulations with respect to the proceedings and meetings of the Agricultural Wages Board, including the method of voting; but subject to the provisions of this Act and to any regulations so made the Agricultural Wages Board may regulate their proceedings in such manner as they think fit.

Establishment of District Wages Committees

12.—(1) The Agricultural Wages Board may establish district wages committees consisting partly of members of the Agricultural Wages Board and partly of persons not being members of the Agricultural Wages Board, but representing employers or workers engaged in agriculture and constituted in accordance with regulations made for the purpose by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and acting for such area as the Agricultural Wages Board may determine.

(2) Provision shall be made by the regulations for at least one appointed member or other person nominated by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries acting as a member of each district wages committee, and for the equal representation of local employers and local workmen on the committee.

(3) The Agricultural Wages Board may refer to a district wages committee for their report and recommendations any matter which they think it expedient so to refer, and may also, if they think fit, delegate to a district wages committee any of their powers and duties under this Act other than their power and duty to fix minimum rates of wages.

(4) Where a district wages committee has been established for any area, it shall be the duty of the committee to recommend to the Agricultural Wages Board minimum rates of wages … applicable to … that area, and no such minimum rate of wages fixed under this Act and no variation or cancellation of such a rate shall have effect within that area unless either the rate or the variation or cancellation thereof, as the case may be, has been recommended by the district wages committee, or an opportunity has been given to the committee to report thereon to the Agricultural Wages Board, and the Agricultural Wages Board have considered the report (if any) made by the committee.

Appointed Members of the Agricultural Wages Board

13.—(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may appoint such number of persons (including women) as they think fit to be appointed members of the Agricultural Wages Board or to act as members of district wages committees.

Power to Take and Conduct Proceedings

17.—(1) Any officer appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under this Act, and any officer of any Government Department for the time being assisting in carrying this Act into effect, shall have power in pursuance of any special or general directions of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to take proceedings under this Act, and the Agricultural Wages Board may also take any such proceedings in the name of any officer appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for the time being acting under the directions of the Agricultural Wages Board in pursuance of this Act, or in the name of their secretary or any of their officers authorised by them.

(2) Any officer appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under this Act, or any officer of any Government Department for the time being assisting in carrying this Act into effect, and the secretary of the Agricultural Wages Board, or any officer of the Agricultural Wages Board authorised for the purpose, may, although not a counsel or solicitor or law agent, prosecute or conduct before a court of summary jurisdiction any proceedings arising under this Act.

I beg to move, in Section 11, paragraph (l), after the word "and" ["in equal proportions and"], to leave out the words, "of the appointed members," and to insert instead thereof the words, "are elected by and on behalf of the employers and workmen respectively."

I take it, from reading some of the words of the Schedule, that the English Board of Agriculture and Fisheries are to have power to make Regulations with respect to the Agricultural Wages Board, and to-elect the members representing the employers and workmen on that Board, and that they are also to have the power to elect members of the Board other than representatives of the employers and workmen. If I am right in my interpretation of the intention of the Government, in so-far as this part of the Schedule is concerned, I think it is a very serious departure from democratic principles. The arrangement provided for in the Scottish Schedule, which has been just agreed to, leaves it largely upon the farmers and farm servants to elect their own members of the Board. That is exactly what I should like to claim for the English farmers and the English farm servants. I would like to have the democratic principle that we have provided for the Scottish farmers and farm servants conceded to the English farmers and farm servants. Lately we have had a great deal of attention paid to the causes of unrest. To my mind, if an arrangement like that in the Schedule is to be given effect to, it will augment the causes of unrest in the agricultural districts. If we want the agricultural population to arrange wages satisfactorily, I think it should be left to the two parties, through their Wages Board, to make those arrangements. I ask an explanation from the President of the Board of Agriculture as to the Government's intention, so far as the making of the Regulations is concerned, and as to the method of electing members of the Board. I should also like to ask whether he will be prepared to give effect to the ideas that I have put forth, namely, that the Board shall be constituted of the elected members of the farmers and farm servants in England?

I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is speaking with very inadequate knowledge of the conditions of English rural life. We have no rural organisation of labourers. In most of the committees of England and Wales there are very few of them in existence, and there is no means except by the difficult and costly proceeding of a system of county council election of electing members of these committees.

If the trades councils could assist us we should be very glad of their assistance. The system we have adopted is that of the Trade Boards Act where they had to deal with constituencies which were not in existence. The process adopted was that they mapped out the country into certain districts and held meetings and canvassed all the employers and employed who took any interest in the subject and where they could they got them to elect persons, and where they would not they nominated names sent from the various districts. That is the process we intend to follow. I submit that the Amendment would render it impossible to set up those Wages Boards within many years.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move in Section 11 (3), after the word "nominated" ["elected or nominated"] to insert the words "by the Board of Agriculture or otherwise."

Supposing we got assistance from a trades council, which has already been referred to, they would nominate a member

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In Section 11 (3), after the word "partly" ["partly nominated"], insert the word "so."

In Section 12 (1), after the word "may" ["may establish"], insert the words "if so required by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, shall."

Leave out the words "partly of members of the Agricultural Wages Board and partly of persons not being members of the Agricultural Wages Board, but," and insert instead thereof the words "subject as hereinafter provided of persons."

In Section 11 (2), leave out the words "appointed member," and insert instead thereof the words "member of the Agricultural Wages Board."

In Section 11 (3), after the word "wages" ["rates of wages"], insert the words "and, subject to Regulations made by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, authorise any such district wages committee to delegate to a sub-committee thereof any of the powers so delegated to the committee."— [ Mr. Prothero. ]

At the end of the First Schedule, add the words,

"In the application of this Schedule to Ireland, references to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall be construed as references to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, and references to the Agricultural Wages Board shall be construed as references to the Agricultural Wages Board for Ireland."—[ Mr. Duke. ]

Second Schedule

Additional Provisions for the Enforcement of Proper Cultivation of Land in Ireland.

1. It shall be the duty of every occupier of arable land to cultivate and maintain in cultivation a portion of the arable land held by him (in this Schedule referred to as the "holding"), not less in extent than the minimum tillage portion as prescribed by an Order of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland made under this Schedule and applying to the holding for the time being: Provided that no occupier shall be required by virtue of any such Order to cultivate more than one-half of the area of his holding.

2. The Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland (in this Schedule referred to as the "Department") may make Orders for the purpose of prescribing the minimum tillage portion of holdings, and may make any such Order so as to apply to all holdings throughout Ireland, or to all holdings in any area specified in the Order, or to any class or classes of holdings specified in the Order whether throughout Ireland or in any area so specified, subject in each case to any exceptions which may be made by or under the Order, or so as to apply to any particular holding or holdings.

3. If in any year the occupier of a holding fails to cultivate the minimum tillage portion of the holding, the Department, after affording him an opportunity, of being heard in such manner as may be prescribed by Regulations under this Act, shall ascertain how much of the minimum tillage portion he has failed to cultivate, and shall specify in a certificate under their seal the acreage thereof and the amount which, in their opinion, ought to be paid by way of penalty in respect of such failure as aforesaid, not exceeding five pounds for each acre of the acreage specified in the certificate and not exceeding a proportionate amount for any fraction of an acre so specified.

Upon the making of the certificate the occupier shall become liable to pay to the Department on demand the amount specified therein as aforesaid, and the certificate shall be conclusive evidence of such liability.

Where there has been a change of occupiers during the year, the amount shall be payable by the person who was occupier at the end of the year.

4. Any sum payable to the Department under this Schedule shall, irrespective of the amount, be recoverable by the Department by ordinary civil bill before the County Court judge of any county in which the holding or any part thereof is situated, and the decision of the County Court judge shall be final.

Any such sum, when received or recovered by the Department, shall be applied by them for the purposes of agriculture and other rural industries within or in connection with the county or counties in which the holding is situated.

5. The powers of the Department under this Schedule shall be in addition to and not in substitution for their other powers for the enforcement of proper cultivation under this Act and all such powers may be exercised concurrently.

6. No penalty by way of increase of rent or otherwise shall be incurred by any tenant under any contract of tenancy in respect of any acts of cultivation which may be necessary in order to comply with the requirements of this Schedule.

7. For the purpose of this Schedule, except where the context otherwise requires—

( a ) the expression "cultivation" means tillage, and the expression "cultivate" has a corresponding meaning: Provided that land used for grazing, meadow, or pasture in any

( b ) the expression "arable" means capable of being tilled.

I beg to move, in Sub-section 3, after the word "fails," to insert the words "without reasonable cause."

Sub-section 3 is applicable to Ireland only, and gives additional powers to the Department of Agriculture in Ireland. Those powers include the imposition of penalties which may run up to a very serious amount, being £5 per acre. The words I propose, "without reasonable cause," would give the opportunity of ascertaining why the amount of tillage had not been made. And the intention is that the unfortunate conditions which sometimes prevail in Ireland with regard to tillage or other management of land may be taken into account by the tribunal. I know myself of two serious cases which occurred during the last year, where gentlemen having been directed to till, under the Defence of the Realm Regulation, proceeded to do so, broke up the land at considerable expense, and had labourers arranged for at a high rate of wages, but on account of boycotting which went on both of those gentlemen had to stop those operations. In one case the ploughs and harrows were taken away. It would, I submit, be very desirable that the tribunal should have power to take into account such circumstances as those. There might be other reasons which would afford reasonable cause and which should be considered by the tribunal.

This is one of a series of Amendments by which I understand it is desired to transfer the Clause in the Schedule which deals with the adjustment and enforcement of penalties. My hon. and learned Friend and those who take his view, may, I think, suppose that it is desirable, whenever there is a dispute as to whether the requisite area of land has been under tillage, that it should be possible to carry that dispute to the Courts of law and to pursue a course of litigation in the Courts of law possibly to the House of Lords. That may be a very laudable proceeding when you are dealing with ordinary conventions of life, but when the question is one of the proper proportion of land to be tilled and whether reasonable steps have been taken to till it, if you can have a domestic tribunal in which the matter can be disposed of without recourse to judges or juries and Courts, even to the House of Lords, I think it is most desirable. The administration of this Bill is an administrative matter, and it is as such it has to be regarded by the House. The Bill forms a kind of agreement between the agricultural interests and the community at large. The agricultural interests are to increase their tillage in consideration of certain benefits, which are to proceed from the Exchequer. The Amendment raises the question of transforming the system in the Bill of administrative procedure and substituting for it judicial procedure at every stage of the proceedings. To make the question of whether the requirements of the Department are excessive, or whether the steps taken were sufficient, capable of being tried in the Courts of law, would be fatal to the enforcement of the Act. You would have the possibility of obstinate well-to-do persons against the scheme and coming into collision with the Department at every step and entering into litigation.

It would not be a good thing for agriculture and the country. I cannot accede to this proposal. On the other question of whether it is desirable that there should be some sort of uniformity in the proceedings, and whether you ought by Regulations take steps to see that a proper body of referees shall be set up to decide between the Department and the individual where the Department is the complainant, that is a matter about which I shall hear what my hon. and learned Friend has to say. On the other question I cannot accept the Amendment.

I desire to say that we entirely agree with the view taken by the right hon. Gentleman in this matter, for the very reasons he has expressed. There are obstinate men in Ireland with the spirit of litigation in them, and I and my hon. Friends do not desire to see the words "reasonable cause" interpreted in hundreds of cases by Courts of law. If these Amendments were accepted they would very much widen the possibility of litigation. They refer not merely to the occupier, but to all the persons connected with the land. Any number of persons may have failed to cultivate one single plot. And that will also have to be decided. You widen the possibility of litigation by these words. I merely wish to say that we are entirely opposed to this series of Amendments, which can only increase litigation, and it would be foolish not to avoid litigation as far as possible.

I am not in the least in favour of increasing litigation, though I think this Bill will afford considerable opportunities for litigation no matter what you do. I would like to know whether there is any guarantee in the measure that a reasonable view will be taken of questions of this kind. It is hot with the idea of encouraging litigation or enabling people to avoid people carrying out the Act, but take the case of people who are to carry out this Act and may not be able to do so. I think the phraseology of this Clause makes it compulsory on the Department of Agriculture to fine these people who have not carried out the provisions of the Act. Supposing a farmer in ploughing times loses a horse at a critical time of the year, when he has only a fortnight or three weeks in which to get his ploughing done, and cannot carry it out. Will the Department, who are to be judge and jury in these cases, be sure to take a reasonable view of that case? Suppose the case of a man who dies, and his family cannot carry out the tillage of the farm at that particular period of the year. What is going to happen in that case? Is it going to be incumbent upon the Department to say that their Regulations have not been carried out? That is a point that interests me. I have no idea of encouraging litigation, or of encouraging the man who does not desire to carry out the Act to get away from his obligation, but I think there may be cases where a reasonable view ought to be taken, and I do not know whether there is a provision in this Act to enable the Department to do so.

I could understand that there would be reasonable cause for the Amendment proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin University (Mr. Samuels) if there was not a provision in this very Section a little lower down. In the case alluded to by the hon. and learned Member, his point was that the aggrieved party should have an opportunity of being heard. But there is an opportunity of being heard. Nobody is going to be fined for not having carried out the provisions of this Act without having obtained a hearing. At any rate, I understood from the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture in the Debate on an earlier portion of this Bill that there was such a provision, and that an opportunity of being heard would be given before a body composed of practical agriculturists. He told us what we know, that there is an advisory committee, which I believe was brought into existence some time last spring. The body to which the Vice-President alluded is composed, as well as I remember, of well-known agriculturists from different parts of Ireland. I think Ulster has two representatives. My hon. Friend who has just spoken (Sir T. Esmonde), of course, ought to be satisfied, considering that the county of Wexford is well represented on this committee, and if I am right, no proceedings will be taken by the Board of Agriculture to enforce by fine any dereliction on behalf of any gentleman not complying with the requirements of the Board, or not carrying out proper cultivation, until he gets a hearing from, I presume, the Vice-President of the Board and this advisory committee. That was, I think, set up before this Bill was introduced at all. I believe it was set up at the time that the indication was given to the farmers of Ireland that they should till 10 per cent. of an increased area.

I happen to know one or two of the gentlemen who constitute that advisory committee, and I know them to be practical agriculturists and reasonable men. I presume the same can be said for all the other members of that advisory committee. Certainly, I think we might rest satisfied that in such a case as was brought to the notice of the House by the hon. and learned Gentleman, if a man could not in the circumstances that he mentioned carry out the requirements of this Act, the advisory committee would undoubtedly see that there was excellent cause why he did not comply with the Act of Parliament, namely, because he could not do so, and that no fines or disabilities of any kind would be inflicted upon him in circumstances of that character. We, at any rate, on these benches are quite satisfied with the assurance we obtained from the Vice-President of the Board of Agriculture, and I am sure it would allay many apprehensions if the Chief Secretary himself could now assure the House that in cases of that kind the Appeal Court, if I may so describe it, or at any rate the body that is to hear these appeals shall decide them before tines are inflicted, or before the Board of Agriculture takes any proceedings in a Court of law, and that the man will have a hearing from those practical agriculturists who are on this advisory board, composed of sensible and practical men from the different provinces of Ireland.

I do think that there is something to be said for the arguments of the hon. Member for South Kildare (Mr. Kilbride) and the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wexford (Sir T. Edmonde), namely, that this section of the Schedule, as it stands, gives the appearance that Irish agriculturists are put at the mercy of the arbitrary decision of the Department of Agriculture, and I do think that if we are going to have an Advisory Committee between the President of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction it should be so stated in the Statute. If we do not have some safeguard I really think some such words as have been suggested by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin University (Mr. Samuels) ought to be inserted, because it does seem to me that some further safeguard that a man who is arraigned under this Section should not merely be heard, but heard to some effect, should be inserted. Everybody knows that there is an enormous number of different conditions of agriculture in Ireland. Ireland, in past history, has not been entirely free from such things as agrarian outrage, and if you want the cultivators safeguarded it should be provided that in any special case they should not merely be heard, but that if they can show reasonable cause they should have a real chance of making good their case, and that they should not be at the mercy of the political chief at the head of the Department of Agriculture.

I think the Chief Secretary is under some misapprehension as to the effect of this Amendment, and also of the series of Amendments which follow, and which I think he rather anticipated in dealing with them. This first Amendment is a general one, and really has to deal with the view that the Agricultural Department itself will take whatever Committee is set up to consider this question, as to whether there has been a certain acreage tilled or not, just as the hon. Member for South Kildare (Mr. Kilbride) has pointed out. This is most serious in particular for the substantial farmers all through the Midlands and South-East of Ireland. If they become unpopular, or if there is a great political cloud burst—and in Ireland such changes of climate manifest themselves suddenly, and farmers do not know when the rain of agitation is coming down heavily—it would be a cruel thing if these mandatory powers were imposed on the Department and they were not at liberty to take into consideration such reasonable cause as may prevent a man from tilling the land. It has been pointed out that he may lose a horse, or he may die, and his farm be vested in his wife and children. There may be unpopularity. I have the case in my own knowledge where the farmer had broken up his land and incurred very heavy loss on account of his labourers being ordered off because of political bias and prejudice against him. It is said that such tribunals as the Agricultural Department would, of course, take that into account. If so, say so. This Amendment has nothing whatsoever to do with the vast fields of litigation that may be opened out, and which everybody is able to conjure up. It is said, "We will not do this or that, because you will all go to law." You make laws, you are going to enforce penalties, and you litigate at once. There is the law, and the only question is who is to decide the law. This Amendment, as I say, has nothing to do with the substitution of words as to the proper tribunal to deal with the question of penalties, and who is to bear them. It is a question of whether there has been a failure to till, and all my Amendments leave that absolutely within the power and jurisdiction of the Agricultural Department alone to decide. They are to find the fact as to whether there has been a certain acreage to till, and whether it has or has not been tilled. If it has not, then I ask that they should be given the power to say that in their judgment there was reasonable cause for it not being tilled, and I submit that that is reasonable. If the Chief Secretary is under a misapprehension as to what is the scope of the Amendment, I hope I have disposed of it.

In the place in which the hon. and learned Member proposes to introduce these words the introduction of them would have the effect of setting up a question of fact, which would be a condition precedent to the jurisdiction of the Department. If he had proposed lower down in paragraph (3) to make one of the questions for the Department whether there has been any reasonable cause for such failure, it would have been a totally different matter, and I should not have taken the objection on this Amendment which I take with regard to the body of them. The Department of Agriculture, in fact, has taken such matters into consideration in every case that has arisen, and will always do so If it is worth the hon. and learned Gentleman's while to have the words introduced after the word "cultivate" ["failed to cultivate"], in paragraph (3), I see no objection to them.

Yes, after the word "cultivate," or after the word "and." It could read, "he has failed to cultivate, and where there has been any reasonable cause for such failure, and." I have no objection to that.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In paragraph 3, after the word "failed" ["failed to cultivate"], insert the words "without reasonable cause."—[ Mr. A. Samuels. ]

I beg to move, in Sub-section 3, to leave out the words "and the amount which, in their opinion, ought to be paid by way of penalty in respect of such failure as aforesaid, not exceeding five pounds for each acre of the acreage specified in the certificate and not exceeding a proportionate amount for any fraction of an acre so specified. Upon the making of the certificate the occupier shall become liable to pay to the Department on demand the amount specified therein as aforesaid."

5.0 P.M.

The series of Amendments, of which this is the first, deal with the question of the tribunal which is to impose a penalty. The original Schedule appearing on the 23rd July was unobjectionable except for one Clause, which provided that a decision of the County Court judge in assessing the penalty should be final. I think it would have been desirable that there should have been the ordinary appeal to a judge of Assizes, particularly as the penalties may amount to several thousand pounds in the case of large farms. The Amendments practically amount to this: we strike out all the words in the Clause from "thereof," and it would then read:

"If in any year the occupier of a holding fails to cultivate the minimum tillage portion of the holding, the Department, after affording him an opportunity of being heard in such manner as may be described by Regulations under this Act, shall ascertain how much of the minimum tillage portion he has failed to cultivate, and shall specify, under their seal, the acreage thereof, and the certificate shall be conclusive evidence of such acreage and failure to cultivate."

The effect of that is to leave the Agricultural Department the sole tribunal to decide the question as to what acreage ought to have been cultivated, what acreage has been cultivated, and the fact that there was a failure to cultivate. Then the Clause would road on:

"When any occupier has failed to cultivate he shall become liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds for each acre of the acreage specified in the certificate, and not exceeding a proportionate amount for any fraction of an acre so specified. Any such penalty shall, irrespective of the amount, be recoverable by the Department by ordinary Civil Bill before the County Court judge of any county in which the holding or any part of it is situated, and the judge shall, in the case of a change of occupation of the holding, during the period in which any failure to cultivate has taken place, have power to apportion the liability for payment of the penalty or any part thereof among any persons who may have failed to cultivate as aforesaid and to declare the penalty or any part thereof a charge upon the holding."

The Schedule as originally drafted was a drastic remedy given to the Department in addition to the remedy of enforcing cultivation which exists in England and Scotland, by entry on the land, and which, as I understand from the speech of the right hon. Baronet, the Vice-President of the Department was exercised in the case of 600 large farms in Ireland last year. They entered into possession of those farms. Not only have they power to enter, but they have power to inflict big penalties of £5 per acre. If you take a 400 acre farm, and half of it is directed to be tilled, as may be the case, that is a penalty of £1,000 which could be inflicted by the Department. What becomes of that £1,000 penalty inflicted by the Department, which is itself the plaintiff, which is itself the judge, which is itself the jury, and which itself, after assessing this penalty, is to go to the County Court, present it with a certificate, and say "Give me execution"? As soon as the execution has been put into operation and the money comes back what becomes of it? It is to be applied by the Department for the purposes of agriculture and other rural industries within or in connection with the county in which the holding is situate. With all respect, I think that is one of the most unconstitutional Clauses ever introduced into an Act of Parliament. The Department, a bureaucracy—a very efficient bureaucracy—is first to say how much land a man is to till, then it is to say whether he tills it or does not till it, and it has then the power of fining to the amount of £5 per acre. It has next to issue a certificate which is absolutely binding on the executing authority, and when it gets back the money, it is to distribute it for the purposes of the county under its own direction. Why I move this Amendment, and why I ask the Chief Secretary to revert to his Clause, which I think was an admirable one as originally drawn and put on the Paper, is that I do not want this Bill to fail in any way in Ireland. I am most anxious that it should be a success, and I am also exceedingly anxious that the Department of Agriculture in Ireland should not come under popular odium. I think there is very great danger involved in this proposal. The Department at present is popular, it is practical, and it is efficient. All its duties are administrative and advisory. It discharges no judicial duties whatever; it is composed of experts in farming, agriculture, forestry, scientific education, and statistics. Perhaps one of the reasons of its great success in dealing with practical matters is that it does not contain a lawyer, except now under circumstances in which the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary is technically head of the Department. Now it has a very brilliant lawyer at its head, but I hardly think that very distinguished Gentleman is going to be sitting to decide all the questions which may come forward for decision under this Bill.

This Corn Production Bill imposes very great duties and gives very great powers to this Department, and, according to their magnitude, so should be the care with which this Department administers them. Care should be taken that it shall not come to be considered as a tyrannical bureaucracy, for hitherto it has ever been a most beneficent, energetic, and admirably equipped Department for carrying into effect the practical things connected with the development of Irish industry. Who is this designed to deal with? The Department, according to the speech of the right hon. Baronet the Vice-President of the Department has had no difficulty in getting the policy of the Defence Acts carried into effect in Ireland during last year. They have been a great success with the exception of certain of the large men, who did not respond as readily as the great mass of the people, and the Department had to enter into occupation of about 600 farms. Therefore, you are going to deal with substantial men, and if there is an objection that there would be litigation arising out of these Amendments I would at once say that the men concerned are substantial men and will be able to bear the cost of the litigation. But, really, when one comes to deal practically with Ireland and to know how this litigation will be carried out, we know that it will be by the cheapest tribunal in the world. The County Court judges in Ireland have jurisdiction up to £50 in ordinary cases and up to £500 in equity cases. They exercise that jurisdiction in a way that gives great satisfaction and with remarkable cheapness. The cost is infinitesimal and the cost of appealing to the Assizes is also infinitesimal. I am not objecting, nor are those associated with me in this objecting, to the enormous expansion of jurisdiction which will be given to the County Courts under this Clause. They may deal not with cases up to £50 in amount, but with cases up to £1,000 or £2,000, and they may deal with them from the equity side or from the common law side. What are the duties of the Department if this Bill was to stand as the Schedule is now framed and not as it was originally framed? As it was originally framed all these questions of fact and of finding as to whether the acreage existed that was to be tilled, whether it had been tilled, whether it had not been tilled, and the certificate, were entirely left, as we propose to leave them, to the jurisdiction of the Department, but, under the Schedule as originally framed, the question of imposing a penalty upon that certificate was one which was given to the County Court.

When you come to deal with questions of penalty and the infliction of penalties every lawyer knows that the Courts are most meticulous in their views, and they see whether a penalty which borders on criminal jurisdiction is rightly or is not rightly inflicted. Look at this Clause as it at present exists in the Bill! It was referred to by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London, speaking the other day. The last occupier, who may be the most innocent man in the world, is to be liable to penalties which may amount to anything from a five-pound note to £2,000 or more. That seems to me a shocking power to leave to a bureaucracy which is itself the judge, jury, and executioner. The ordinary course of the common law Courts should not be shut out. We are not even asking that; we say, "Go to the County Courts, a simple and easy tribunal, existing in every one of these counties, and let them decide the question as to this penalty." These farms in the centre and South of Ireland, and in some other parts of Ireland, are all saddled with marriage settlements. We all know that in Tipperary it is quite common for a girl to be dowered with a charge on a farm to the amount of anything from £300 to £1,000. Suppose a tenant for life is the person who has been directed to till, and that the tenant for life dies, and the remainder man under the settlement becomes entitled to the farm and happens to go into occupation at the end of the year? Under this Clause as it stands he is the person that is to be fined by the amateur tribunal. There is not a lawyer in the agricultural Department, and if you are going to import lawyers into it you will have to pay them, and that will put another expense upon the community. If you are not going to have lawyers to carry out this business, then you will have a quack tribunal, and you will have quack law, and I think quack law and quack medicine are both bad for the constitution. I am sure the farming community in Ireland would object very strongly to this sort of legal medicine being administered.

Let me take some other of these cases where, under the Clause as it stands, the last occupier "shall be" liable to these most serious penalties. There is the case of bankruptcy. Is it to be said that the creditor's assignee or the official assignee in bankruptcy are to be liable to these large penalties? Who is to decide it? And if they are liable, who is to decide priorities? Do they come in before other creditors or not? Or take the case of executorship and administratorship in cases where a man dies and leaves no family. The last occupier is the administrator. Is he to be liable or is he not to be liable? These are questions which must be decided by the lawyers. Take the case of the tenant for life. Take the case of ejectment of any kind. Take the case of rival claimants to a farm, where one man recovers in the middle of the year and goes into occupation, and has nothing whatever to do with what had gone on before. Is he liable to the penalty or not? That is a legal question which ought to be decided by a legal tribunal. Take the case of receivers under the Courts. Are they to be liable? They may be persons in occupation. Take the case of a minor. Is he liable? There is nothing in the Bill to say that a minor is not liable. There is no power of charging the land. A suggestion was made by the hon. Members for West Waterford and North Sligo on this point which I have framed part of my Amendment to cover. There ought to be the power of putting a charge on the land for these penalties. One of my contentions is that the County Court judge, who would act on legal principles in deciding who are the persons who should be actually liable for these penalties, may distribute the liability among different people who may succeed one another in the ownership and who may be individually in default. Each of them may have failed to till, but under the Schedule as now framed the last man may have to bear the full brunt of all the penalty, and he might possibly be a minor or a lunatic or some other person who is neither actually nor legally in default. To say that you will avoid litigation by this process of making the bureaucracy at once judge and executioner is, in my mind, a mistake. You do nothing of the kind. If there is anything which the Courts of Common Law and Courts of Equity are more jealous of than another, it is to see, that if such powers as these are given to a Department, that they shall be exercised with the greatest care and that the officials shall not exceed by one iota the powers that are vested in them. The whole of these operations may be ripped up by the higher Courts. This liability of a Department and the persons who administer it has been exemplified in the case of the Valuation Department, the Education Department, and the Excise Commissioners recently in England, and this Irish Department cannot claim exemption from the control of the superior Courts.

The proposal which I bring forward is really a very reasonable one. I do not wish in any way whatsoever to do other than to make this Act work smoothly, or desire that it shall be other than as far as possible efficiently administered. Therefore, I say: Let the administrative work be dealt with entirely by the Department, as was proposed by the Amendment first put upon the Schedule as tabled on 27th July by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary. It was only on account of the suggestions made, and I think hurriedly made, by the hon. Members for West Waterford and North Sligo that these alterations were made—

Then I take back anything I have said in regard to that. But I do think that the Schedule as originally framed was a very proper one. In regard to this Clause, which might have been adopted without question, except that there should be an appeal from the County Court to a judge of Assize. Such, an appeal exists in Ireland in every case within the County Court jurisdiction, which extends on the Common Law side to £50 and to £500 on the Equity side. I Would suggest that the original Schedule should be restored, and that is practically what I propose by these Amendments.

As in the observations addressed by me to the House in respect to the first of the Amendments by my hon. and learned Friend, I do not see my way to depart from the attitude I took up then, and to transfer these questions of agricultural administration to the Law Courts, to add the mountains of litigation which my hon. Friend declares to be possible in the way of proceedings for prohibition, certiorari, and other legal machinery of that kind. One would suppose you were taking away the freeholds. You are doing nothing of the kind. The Legislature, by a system upon the consideration of which the House of Commons has been engaged for some considerable period with the object of benefiting agriculture, and benefiting the country at the same time, has said that we must have more tillage, and that we must secure it by administrative process. My hon. and learned Friend says it will give a great population satisfaction if, in addition to the benefits of more tillage, we have an abundant crop of litigation. I do not take that view at all. In one particular point I agree there is ground for a change of procedure—that is, as to the definition of the tribunal which has to ascertain these matters when the complainant is the Department. I quite recognise that the spirit of our procedure is that the complainant in proceedings should not be the judge of the proceedings, and I tried to make it clear at an earlier stage of the Bill that I would be quite ready to consider, and do more than consider, a proposal that would define the character of the tribunal, and which would withdraw from the Bill the imputation and suggestion that the complainant might be the tribunal. What I would be ready to do in another place is to propose words whereby, if the Department should signify to the occupier who is in default the grounds on which he is alleged to be in default, and that when that certificate has been given under the Regulation which would be set up, and which will be subject to the control of each House—the other House as well as this House—means should be taken to constitute or designate the tribunal which is to deal with the certificate that shall settle the dispute between the Department and the occupier. But that must be a matter incidental to the administrative procedure which the House of Commons has already laid down, and which, as I understand, must prevail in these cases, and which must be used in the ascertainment of the grounds of default and of the penalties. The certificate may be hung up until the tribunal, whether it is the Advisory Committee or whether it is somebody nominated by the Advisory Committee, or whatever may be the intermediate step between granting the certificate and the settlement of the matter, has decided the case. I am quite willing that there should be a hearing and a determination by the tribunal so set up, but questions—

No, no; I am not. I am not going to invoke the aid of lawyers. I would not willingly be a party to invoking the aid of lawyers to decide questions of tenure. I would not willingly be a party to the introduction of disabilities into this Bill by referring these questions to law. The Regulations I will provide will, as I have suggested, be introduced in another place, and they will make it clear what the character of the tribunal is to be.

Why not make it something in the nature of the Land Commission, where there are both lawyers and practical men?

That is a suggestion which is well worth consideration. The Land Commission proceeds by sub-commissions. It is a well-known tribunal, and is accustomed to deal with agricultural matters and with these questions of fact. I do not want to fetter the discretion of my advisers in giving an ultimate decision upon this matter, but I am willing to try to remove a blemish which, as I say, has been pointed out—that the same person is complainant and judge—and so provide a practical procedure which I think alone is consistent with the proper administration of the Bill.

I tremble at the suggestion which has been thrown out to open up this whole question in another place. I believe that if the right hon. and learned Gentleman sets going the fertile imaginations of those who sit in another place on this very subject that his intentions will be frustrated. The Bill, as it stands, supplies all that is necessary in these cases. It is proposed by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dublin University to eliminate certain words from this Sub-section. Let me read a portion of the Section. It says:

"3. If in any year the occupier of a holding fails to cultivate the minimum tillage portion of the holding, the Department, after affording him an opportunity of being heard in such manner as may be prescribed by Regulations under this Act."

I know the hon. and learned Gentleman does not propose to take these words out, but he proposes to take out from these words—that is to say, to take out the rest of the Sub-section. I submit that this provision in this Bill is simple when read with what follows further down. If the hon. and learned Gentleman will look at Sub-section (4), he will see that it reads:

"4. Any sum payable to the Department under this Schedule shall, irrespective of amount, be recoverable by the Department by ordinary civil bill before the County Court judge.…."

So that the defaulter has two chances. I have had the opportunity, and I have had the occasion and duty, to read the Regulations which have been made from time to time by the Department, especially the Regulations that have been made for the purpose of carrying out cultivation under the Defence of the Realm Act. I have no fault to find with those Regulations. I think they have been well devised and well drawn. I have every confidence that the Department of Agriculture in Ireland will do no injustice to any man under this Bill. I therefore heard with some sort of regret—in fact, almost with fear, that the right hon. Gentleman said that he would in another place suggest words to be put into this Bill that will reopen the whole of the subject, that will widen the scope, and unnecessarily widen the scope, of the appeals and of the redress under this Bill I know the right hon. and learned Gentleman wants to act fairly between the two parties in respect of this Act, but I cannot help expressing my own belief that under the Act ample means are provided for a first hearing and a second hearing in every case, and anything that may be provided and suggested in another place is quite unnecessary, and is a work of supererogation. Therefore, I maintain the attitude with which I began of consistent hostility to the series of Amendments that have been proposed by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, on the ground that they are going to increase litigation, and that they are absolutely unnecessary, because the provisions of the Bill are all that are required to give effect to the intentions of the measure.

I think that the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down is under a slight misapprehension when he says that there are two distinct tribunals to which a person can appeal

I did not say there were two appeals; I said there was a first hearing and an appeal to the County Court judge.

Perhaps I expressed myself badly. I agree the hon. Member said there was a first hearing and an appeal. There is nothing of the sort. Under the Schedule as it now stands, first of all the Department has to determine the amount which ought to be paid, and so on, and it says, "the certificate shall be conclusive evidence of such liability." The Amendment proposes to delete the word "liability" and to insert the words "acreage and failure to cultivate." The County Court automatically becomes the tribunal through which to get the money from the man. I do not wish to pursue the matter further, but I am authorised by the hon. Member for Dublin University (Mr. A. Samuels) to say that if the Chief Secretary adheres to what he has already stated, namely, that in another place he will bring in such words as will substitute some form of tribunal for the absolute, unappealable fiat of the Department of Agriculture, we who are associated in this matter will gladly accept such a solution of the difficulty.

I cannot help feeling that the remarks to which we have listened from the hon. and gallant Member and from the hon. Member for Dublin University rather leave out of sight the fact that the Department of Agriculture, which is mainly concerned with this matter, is primarily a farmers' Department. It is, for example, assisted in its work by advisory committees, and to press the very strict legal idea of the necessity of having appeals and various tribunals practically in the interest of the farmers is not, I think, reasonable in this case. For example, throughout the whole of this Bill our desire is to see that a great deal of extra cultivation is undertaken, and the idea has been rather conjured up by the speakers that the farmer may be unfairly dealt with by the Department of Agriculture. Now, the Department of Agriculture, if anything, would be in favour of the farmer, and I think it is carrying the idea of strict liability too far to suggest that the farmer will not get full hearing in the first case and full justice. Our object is to avoid in the future as much as possible anything in the nature of prolonged litigation. Anything that would avoid that would be surely not merely of advan- tage in food production generally, but to the existence of good feeling between the Department of Agriculture on the one hand and the great mass of Irish farmers on the other. I hope, therefore, that the Chief Secretary, to whom we have made strong representations on this subject, will not weaken the position which he has taken up so far, but will see that the spirit in which we have advanced our case in this matter is reasonable, and that he will not be driven to extreme cases of legal liabilities, and so on.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, at the end of the Second Schedule, to insert as a new Sub-section,

"8. This Schedule shall not apply to any holding not exceeding ten acres in extent."

Those of us who have any knowledge whatever of farming in Ireland know that there are a vast number of small farms throughout the country. The West of Ireland is broken up entirely into small farms, mostly under ten acres. Where there are not ranches there are small farms. These ten-acre farms are nearly always tilled, and it is quite unnecessary to bring them under the lash of an Act of Parliament that will be operative, and to which there is attached a penalty Therefore, it must occur to the minds of any reasonable people that it is quite unnecessary to apply this Act to those small farms. I do not think there is any need for me to argue that these little tillage farms need not be brought under the lash of this Act in order to compel their occupiers to do what is the business of their life to do, namely, to cultivate these farms.

I did not see any suggestion that the occupiers of small farms in Ireland should not accept the guarantee under the other part of this Bill, and I hope very many of them will be much encouraged by the certainty that is given to farmers by the provisions of this Bill. If you did not exclude them from the beneficial part of the Bill, it would not be very symmetrical to relieve them from the obligations. The position with regard to small farmers in Ireland is one which, I think, does not need any special protection in this Bill. The Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act have expressly exempted them as a matter of administration, as it would not have been worth while to have had the administrative machinery which would have been required to deal minutely with a vast number of small holdings. That being the case with regard to the Regulations, and those Regulations being intended to operate during the period of the War, all that we have to see is whether during the remainder of the period governed by the Bill there is proper protection for these small holdings. If my hon. Friend will refer to paragraph 2 of the Second Schedule, he will see that the Department of Agriculture

"may make Orders for the purpose of prescribing the minimum tillage portion of holdings, and may make any such Order so as to apply to all holdings throughout Ireland, or to all holdings in any area specified in the Order, or to any class or classes of holdings specified in the Order, whether throughout Ireland or in any area so specified, subject in each case to any exceptions which may be made by or under the Order, or so as to apply to any particular holding or holdings."

There is absolute protection, within the discretion of the Department of Agriculture, for everybody who ought to be exempted from interference. Hon. Members know perfectly well that in some of these small holdings there are grazing lands where there is an absentee who lets to somebody else who grazes, and the intention is to secure a reasonable balance between pasture and tillage. It would be quite unreasonable to exempt them from the operation of the Act, and the effect of the Amendment would be to exempt from the operation of the Act a class of tenant who, in the contemplation of the Act—I am not speaking on any other ground—are not meritorious. Having regard to the fact that there is entire discretion to the Department of Agriculture to give protection wherever it is required, I hope the Amendment will not be pressed.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

In moving the Third Reading of this Bill I do not propose to make any lengthy speech. The subject has been exhaustively discussed in Committee, and the Bill has been, I think, substantially improved during its progress through Committee. I am sure I am grateful to all Members of the Committee who have helped to bring about that improvement. Although the subject is highly controversial, I believe only once the Closure was used, and that against an hon. Member who is a supporter of the Bill. I think the Bill, the more closely it is examined, will be seen to be a Bill conceived and carried out in the national interests and not in the interest of any section or class of the community. Let us look for one moment at the circumstances in which the Bill was brought forward and the objects at which it aims. It was brought forward at a time when the food supplies of this country appeared to be seriously threatened. So long as we are dependent upon sea-borne supplies of food, we always have a point of danger— the vulnerable point—and the only way in which you can guard against that danger is by increasing the home-grown food production. Therefore, the Government thought, and think, that it is absolutely essential to our conduct of the War to increase the home-grown food supplies of this country. The farmers were quite willing to help in every possible way when once they were assured that they had the nation behind them in their effort. Assured of that fact in February of this year, they have achieved wonders in the face of really enormous difficulties, with insufficient labour and an unfavourable season.

The mass of farmers in this country are not capitalists. The vast majority of them are possessed of very little money, and all that they have is embarked in their business. They had open to them other branches of their industry less costly and more lucrative than that of corn growing, and the Government thought that if they asked these farmers to embark their money in what is a risky and speculative undertaking, they must put the proposals before them on a business footing, still more so if they are going to use compulsion for the purpose of ploughing up land. What the Government has said to them is this: "If you will embark your private capital to grow food for the nation in time of need, we will guarantee you against the possible consequences of our fiscal policy—a policy which, however advantageous it may be to the other members of the community, has always worked to your detriment, and in certain cases may work to your absolute ruin." We offered them a guarantee against that slump of prices which might have brought about a repetition of the disaster of the early 'Nineties. That is, what Part I does. It offers the farmer a security against that disaster. It does. that and nothing more; it does not affect the market prices for corn; it does not add one farthing to the price of bread to the consumer; it possibly may not even cost the taxpayer a penny—and yet it gives the nation security, so far as it becomes effective, against the peril of famine, and it gives the farmer security against a ruinous slump in prices.

When you look at Part II., which deals with wages, you will see that that is dealt with in the same way in the national interest. It is in the interests of the nation, economically, socially, physically, and industrially, that you should have as large an agricultural population as possible working on the land. Under Part II. we have made a beginning in that direction. We have been criticised because we have not made a much larger provision for an agricultural population after the War, and that we have not adapted our rates of wages to the inflated and abnormal prices of produce to-day. I do not think myself that that criticism is altogether well founded. I think that wages can never be reduced by the Wages Board, and that if we had adopted a scale which was at all adapted to the high abnormal prices to-day, we might have loaded the industry more heavily than it can bear, and we should have killed employment. What we have done for the labourer is to secure him an irreducible minimum wage. We have done something more. We have secured him a voice and a potent voice in controlling his own wages, and, through that, of controlling the conditions under which he works.

If we come to Part IV., there again I think we have proposed this Bill and carried it out in the national interest. So long as the nation guarantees minimum prices, so long, I think, it ought to be able to secure that productive effort is made by those who have the benefit of that insurance. Further than that, we have recognised—I am not sure whether it is for the first time in a public Bill—that agriculture at all events in a time of crisis like this is not merely the concern of the landowner and the tenant, but that the whole community is vitally concerned in the cultivation of the land, and at a great emergency like this the nation has paramount rights to control the method of cultivation in its own interest. I quite admit that public trusteeship, that sense of public duty, has animated for years past the best landlords and tenants in this country, but we cannot altogether shut our eyes to the fact that there are others who have not so cultivated their land as public trustees for the national interest in the soil. There has been throughout the discussion something of a tendency to lay stress upon the supposed antagonism of interest between the urban and rural sections of the community. I deplore that tendency to increase the antagonism which has grown up within the last few years. Nothing, to my mind, could be more dangerous to agriculture or to the welfare of the whole community than to foster and exasperate that feeling. Is it so certain that if this Bill is working in the national interest that townsmen are not interested in it? If it secures the nation against such a shortage of food as might compel it to abandon this War, townsmen are just as much interested in that security as countrymen or any other section of the community. If it leads to a large agricultural population on the land, townsmen are as much interested both indirectly and directly as any other members of the community.

In conclusion, there is a point on which I should like to lay stress, and it is that townsmen and artisans are very directly interested in this Bill, not because it will, as is supposed, affect the price of food, which it cannot do, but they are directly interested in the matter of their own wages and their own employment. We have added something like 1,000,000 acres during the present year in the United Kingdom to the cultivation of corn and potatoes. Let us suppose that 600,000 acres of that 1,000,000 are devoted to the growth of essential grain, that must be brought into the country as one of the essentials of animal and human life. One of the difficulties to-day, and it will be our difficulty to-morrow, is a shortage of tonnage. Every 600,000 quarters of wheat or essential corn that we can produce in this country is going to release carrying capacity to the same amount. Six hundred thousand quarters of wheat grown in this country sets free carrying capacity to bring over to this country one-third of the raw cotton imported from America. If, as I say, we have added 600,000 acres to the corn cultivation of this country, we have four times 600,000 quarters gain. What we have done already, and done partly under this Bill, is to increase our carrying capacity to such an extent that we can bring the whole of the American supply of cotton of last year into this country. I am arguing on Board of Trade figures. This means that the goods which are made out of each million bales of American cotton—the amount, that is, corresponding to each 600,000 quarters of grain—are of the value of £32,000,000 in the year, and give an opportunity of earning between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000 a year in wages, besides furnishing employment for numerous subsidiary trades. Tell that to the cotton operatives of Lancashire, and ask them whether they are not directly interested in the success of this movement to grow greater quantities of home-grown food in this country. I do not say this is going to last or that this argument is going to be strong when once the strain upon our tonnage has passed away, but I say at the present moment, and in the next year, until our tonnage is once more restored, that to grow as much home-grown and essential food as we can in this country is to enable us to bring into this country the raw materials of manufacture out of which the wages and the employment of hundreds of thousands of our operatives are made.

6.0 P.M.

It has been indicated to me that the Government will not be sorry to have a little time taken up with the Third Reading because of their arrangements for the next business. Therefore, I make bold to follow the President of the Board of Agriculture with a few words about this Bill. I think he was quite right in saying that this Bill dealt rather with the national than with sectional interests. Nevertheless, after listening to the different sections who might be affected by this Bill during the different stages it has passed, one has found it difficult to find that the Bill has any real friends. It is urged that it is being passed to encourage commerce, and yet we are told by some that the farmers would much rather be without it. The Bill opens the way for landlords to make their estates and their workshops much less than hitherto, which many landlords are very glad to get a chance of doing, and one has heard very few representatives of the landlords who have really given this Bill anything like a warm welcome. The Bill sets up Agricultural Wages Boards, and yet there seems so much doubt as to how they will work in the peculiar circumstances of the agricultural industry that organised labour at any rate has given that part of the Bill a very lukewarm reception. The fact is, perhaps owing to the fatigue and overstrain of these three years of war, that we all tend to criticise what we do not like in the proposals put before us rather than to praise what we do like in them. It reminds me rather of the boy who said, "I do not like the things I like as much as I dislike the things that I do not like." That is rather true of this war-weary House of Commons. I shall, therefore, pass over as quickly as possible my criticism of the things I do not like in this Bill and pass on rather to the things which I definitely like and welcome. The right hon. Gentleman went rather beyond the mark in claiming that the only object and the only thing which Part I. of the Bill did was to encourage the man who would put fresh capital into corn production. The point that we on this side have made several times is still in no way met. The guarantees are going to the man who does nothing at all by putting fresh capital into the land to increase the production of corn, as well as to the man who makes a real attempt to help the country by producing more food. That fact has not been got over by any statement to which we have listened. The Bill lacks that element of bargaining between different interests that some of us have tried to get into it, and we are bound at the end as at the beginning to regard it rather as a blemish that the farmer who just goes on cultivating the same amount of cereal crops, or even a less amount than he has grown before, will be able to claim the benefit of the guarantees if they become payable.

With regard to Part II., which deals with agricultural wages, I cannot feel that we have really risen to the height of the occasion, difficult though it was. I do not say that it was easy, or even possible, to get over the handicap with which we started. The Prime Minister, in February, obviously without any sort of real consideration, adopted the figure of 25s. It happened to be the figure which the National Service Department had thought of in an entirely different connection. He announced it to the House and to the country, and from that moment we have been tied and pledged to that figure and have been unable to get away from it. I tried to show, in an Amendment which was moved to the Bill, that it was inconceivable that this House would have fixed any figure lower than that if we had been passing legislation dealing with Agricultural Wages Boards in the ordinary course of politics. At the bottom level of prices and of cost of living we could not have allowed a less wage than 25s., made up in this sort of way: 18s. or 19s. paid in cash, 2s. or 3s. estimated as the value of allowances, and the remaining 4s. or 5s. rent for the labourer's cottage. At the very bottom of pre-war prices 25s. would not have been in any sort of way over-generous to the labourer. Yet we are now fixing that same figure of 25s. with the cost of living enormously increased, and with every prospect that it will still continue very high. The main reason given for not increasing that figure has been that it is still considerably above what a good many farmers are even now paying in the worst paid agricultural counties. I feel that we have rather played down to those men whose treatment of their labourers in the past has been a black stain on English country life. We shall no doubt be doing something to remove that stain, but we ought not to have given much consideration to such men.

The farmers in the Western and Southern counties often say, no doubt with some truth, that their labour is of bad quality, but they themselves have made it so, and no one else, by generations of under-feeding and bad housing and bad treatment. They have driven out all the better and more virile of the agricultural population, and they cannot now complain that the men who are left are not worth the higher wages which they are being called upon to pay. The Bill, I fear, goes out in a form in which it cannot be any real attraction to a fresh population or to men to come back to the land and take up their residence there. The only hope in these depleted districts is that new men of better virility will be attracted to the land to supply the extra labour that will be needed for the new policy of agricultural production which the country has set before it. I fear that the Bill gives them rather a poor prospect if they study its present provisions. Let us look at it for a moment from their point of view. What will they be wanting when they come back from the War and consider whether they should take to an outdoor life or not? Can they be sure that the 25s. stated in the Bill will be regarded as only the right figure when prices go down again, if ever they do, to a pre-war basis, and that it will be increased to correspond with the increase in the cost of living over the pre-war period? No; that was declined when it was suggested in this House. Have we directed that there shall be war bonuses for the time during which war prices continue? No; that was declined by the Government yesterday. Do we make sure that not more than a certain proportion of the wage shall be given in the form of allowances or privileges? No; we have not done that. Do we make sure that from the beginning a man will be really free in the sense that he will be certain to have a wage that will enable him to pay a reasonable and proper rent for a cottage, and that he will not, on the other hand, have to live where he is told in a tied cottage as in the past? No; we are grateful for what the right hon. Gentleman has said, that he will try gradually during a course of years to see that the wages allow of an economic rent being paid, but we have not taken the opportunity of getting that question dealt with in the Bill.

We are told that we must rely in this wages question on the Wages Board to put things right. We are told, quite truly, that they will have every chance of starting at a figure above 25s. What chance is there that the Wages Board will really start at a figure higher than 25s.? I am afraid that there is very little chance. They will, perhaps, refer to the very important speech that the right hon. Gentleman made a fortnight ago, when there was an artificial political crisis created over this question of agricultural wages, and they will see there that the calculation that the President of the Board of Agriculture made as to the extra cost to the farmer of having to pay 30s. instead of 25s. was based wholly on the assumption that 25s. would not be the minimum wage, but would be the maximum wage, and that everything in advance of 25s. would be a fresh burden put on the farmer by the Amendment then moved. That figure impressed the House, but it was difficult to realise in the course of the Debate what was the basis of calculation. It was based on the idea that the Wages Boards would not fix the wage any higher, and I am afraid that it is rather poor encouragement to us in our hope that they will do better than this extremely low figure. We cannot get away from the fact that 25s. now only represents 14s. 9d. on the pre- war cost of living. From that wage there has to be deducted a certain amount for the value of allowances and so on, and, although I have great hopes that the Wages Board will gradually produce an improvement, I am afraid that the immediate effect may be only to sterotype a very low wage, considering the cost of living in agricultural districts.

I have got over my criticisms, and I will turn for a moment to the brighter things that I see in this Bill. We must all admit the difficulty that the President of the Board of Agriculture has felt and been under with regard to the question of wages. He said twice, and I think it was quite true, that it would have been far better to have had no figure at all in the Bill than to have had this very difficult figure of 25s., and if he had been free no doubt he would have been able to take more into consideration those questions with regard to housing and so on that we have ventured to raise during the Committee stage. He was tied to the figure of 25s. from the moment that the Prime Minister made his speech in February, and it has not been his fault that he has had to turn such an unfavourable eye on our suggestions that instructions might be given to the Wages Boards in the direction of greater generosity. It is to the good that we have his promise that he will do his best to see that gradually, if not at once, the wages allow of a proper rent being paid. It is the root of freedom in the country that a man should be able to live where he likes, and that it should pay ordinary people to get an acre or so of land and build houses on it to house agricultural and other country workers. Until an ordinary man can afford to pay ordinary rent out of an ordinary wage, it is impossible that house building should be undertaken on an ordinary and proper basis in our country districts. It is, after all, to the good—I admit it fully—that Wages Boards should get started. I believe that they will bring a bright light of day into many dark places in those ill-paid counties. I cannot help remembering a conversation that I had only about a year ago with a late Member of this House, who is one of the Agricultural Commissioners for the Board of Agriculture in the West of England. He was talking about the difficulties of the farmers with regard to their labour, and he said that the difficulty was that things were so uneven. Some farmers had plenty, and some farmers had none. A farmer had been talking to him about this thing in a certain parish in East Devon. He said, "There is So-and-So who has seven men on his farm now, and he had the same seven men before the War began." The Commissioner naturally said that it was perhaps because he paid good wages. "Not at all," said the farmer, "he pays nothing out of the ordinary. He has only increased his wages 2s. during the War. He has increased them from 11s. to 13s." If that has been possible in our country districts within a year or so of the present time, it is a dreadful thing, and I am sure that we are all glad that by the setting up of the Wages Board that sort of thing, at any rate for able-bodied men, will pretty soon become a thing of the past. An enormous amount will depend upon the composition and chairmanship of the Central Wages Board. I am sure we all absolutely trust the President of the Board to do the very best thing he possibly can to start the Wages Boards on the right path and to see that both sides are represented in the fairest way possible. In conclusion on the wages question, we may be and must be glad that in this time of difficulty we have had a chance of setting this machinery to work in our country districts which we should no doubt have done before now if the War had not supervened.

Taking the two other main parts of the Bill together—Part I. and Part IV.— they seem to me to represent two sides of one single arrangement, first, a guarantee that prices will not fall back, as the President said, to the level of the nineties, and, secondly, the claim on the other side that, in return for that guarantee, the land shall be required to produce the greatest possible quantity of food. It has not been at all easy for the right hon. Gentleman to keep a fair balance between those two parts of the Bill. One part has been attacked from one point of view and the other part has been attacked from another point of view, but I think that the right hon. Gentleman has succeeded extraordinarily well in keeping a balance between the two parts, and I very greatly admire the way in which he has done so. He has done so by refusing all Amendments to Part I. of the Bill, even one which seemed to me an extremely moderate Amendment, which the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool (Mr. Leslie Scott) made even more moderate for me and then did not vote for himself when the question came to be decided in the Division Lobby. The right hon. Gentleman has also refused all Amendments of perhaps a similar nature tending to whittle away the strength of Part IV. of the Bill. He has seen that the whole could only be preserved if its different parts were kept intact. He certainly has increased his already high reputation for fairness by his action with regard to the different parts of the Bill as they have in turn come before us. What can be said in favour of Part I. of the Bill, and what is it that ought to be admitted by those who have criticised it in this House? Surely this is true, that even though the guarantees will probably not operate, and though the best farmers know that and realise and are quite willing to accept and are content with the prospects of the prices of wheat as they will be offered by the run of market prices, Part I. of the Bill has taken away a feeling which they have had in their minds hitherto that agriculture is a neglected industry. Farmers do feel, now that Part I. is on its way to the Statute Book, that they will not again be left to plough a lonely furrow, or that the lonely furrow will not be allowed to be turned again to grass if world prices fall down again to their late level. If it makes them put their backs into food production as nothing else would have done, I must admit it has contributed materially to the safety of our food supplies, of which we are now assured if only we exercise real care in food consumption.

One of the reasons why we have heard so little about the work of the Food Production Department is not only because that Department, under the hon. and gallant Member for Fareham (Colonel Sir Arthur Lee), is extremely well conducted, but also because it has not got the uphill task which many other public Departments have at the present time in having a good deal of opinion strongly against it. I believe that the Food Production Department has found opinion in the countryside heartily in its favour and heartily helping it. For that we have to thank, to some considerable extent, the provisions of Part I. of this Bill. We have to remember that the farmer is a very bad man to drive. Although, of course, he still grumbles, as he always does, and one hears him frequently asserting very strongly that he does not want the Bill, yet I feel sure that Part I. of the Bill has been in many instances just the bunch of carrots that has helped to drive him at a time when it was so essential that he should be driven. [HON. MEMBERS: "Lead him!"] As to Part IV., what one feels about that is that everything depends upon the spirit in which it is administered. One fears that in the absence of some definite standard to aim at—this is the point I made before; I feel very strongly that it would have been a great improvement if the Government had said what they were really aiming at in the matter of the food production of this country, not only in this year but in future years—everything will depend upon the Minister of Agriculture for the time being, and that we may have an alteration of Ministers, some who will leave Part IV. of the Bill practically as a dead letter, and others who will try to use it fairly severely against the farming community, and will make enemies by so doing. It is a great thing that, without acute Parliamentary controversy and without long political campaigns, we are in a fair way to put on the Statute Book such considerable powers as are contained in Part IV. of the Bill. It is a great thing that in future, in regard to land which is kept bare of crops for the purposes of sport, or for any other purpose, or which has been allowed to become derelict, the State will be able to say to the owner or occupier of that land, "Either you must do better or you must go out. Unless that land is improved and brought into full cultivation, the State may take it over and cultivate it properly." That is a great thing to have got into an Act of Parliament. The powers are very wide. I rather fear that they may attract more notice in another place than they have done here; but I hope very much that the Government will be able to keep the powers they have taken intact there, as they have in this House.

One word only on the remaining part of the Bill, the part that deals with rents. I believe, in spite of the criticism we heard in this House yesterday, that the Government has done the only possible thing. With regard to land owners, there are only two alternatives. Either you must nationalise the land and put the land owner out of business altogether, or you must, in every possible way, encourage him to act as a business man, to treat his land as a business proposition, and to make such rent by it as properly corresponds to the investments he makes and the improvements he effects in his property. We were told yesterday that farmers would be very much discouraged when they found land owners under this Bill, as before it, were able to raise their rents, except on the slight ground of the existence of Part I. of this Bill. I believe the only hope of getting the landlord to take his proper place as the inspirer and director of all improvements and developments in our rural life is to give him the task of tackling rural development as a business proposal, and not by curtailing by legislative enactment the power he has of fixing a fair rent as between himself and his tenant. I am bound to say that the balance of the Bill has been fairly kept by the President. With regard to Part II., which deals with wages, although all our hopes are not fulfilled, there is a real improvement in the setting up of the Wages Boards. Part IV. does give the State splendid powers, which may result in great developments in our agricultural industry in the future. On the whole, trying to look at the bright side of it, I believe that we have in the Bill taken a real step forward in making the land of this country of full use to the people who live in it.

This Bill is certainly one that has aroused very great controversy, but I believe its passage through the House has been made easier by the invariable courtesy shown and the high tone that has been adopted by the President of the Board of Agriculture. I do not believe that a more upright man ever sat upon the Treasury Bench. For my own part, I am strongly opposed to this measure. It gives a sort of start to a kind of new Corn Law. I am convinced that it is going to have consequences reaching far beyond those imagined by many Members of this House at the present moment which are plain to those who can see the day after to-morrow. The President to-night brought out a new argument in support of the Bill. In that argument he appeared to me to be making a direct appeal to the textile operatives of Lancashire. I want to have a much more explicit understanding in regard to that matter than he gave us. I understood the President of the Board to say that any shipping released as a result of the passing of this measure is going to be devoted to the bringing over of cotton.

Taking it in that sense, it is a little unfortunate, because I am quite sure that by putting special stress upon the illustration of cotton the right hon. Gentleman will convey to the people of Lancashire that they are going to be treated in some specially privileged way apart from all the other industries of the country. I am quite sure that that impression will be conveyed.

May I explain? If I had taken wool, as I might easily have taken it, as the illustration, the distance of the voyage would not have been such a good illustration for my purpose. The fact is that the voyage from America with cotton and the voyage from America with wheat is practically very much the same, and the two are comparable.

All I say is that if the textile operatives in Lancashire do know the actual facts at present in regard to cotton and shipping, I do not think they will be unduly impressed by the illustration the President gave us this afternoon. The Bill, in the main, will give a guarantee to the farmers and to the agricultural interest for the next six years. That is put forward on the ground of a war necessity. I grant that farmers are doing many things which they would not have done under more normal conditions. That is perfectly true. On that ground this bounty is to be given. I would submit, first, that there are many interests which have been put to as much inconvenience owing to war conditions as have the farmers. There are interests in connection with machinery which have been turned from peace conditions to war conditions—indeed, in many eases they might properly claim that when the War comes to an end much of their machinery may be put out of use for the time being or will certainly have to be reconverted back to its peace standards and peace conditions. So far from giving any guarantee or bounty to such parts of the engineering trade, we have been imposing upon them a high Excess Profits Duty and taking a large part of their excess profits in a way that has not been done so far as the farmers are concerned. One asks, therefore, how far this principle is going to spread. Is it going to spread to other interests as well as to the agricul- tural interest? That is a point that ought to be faced, because I am convinced that it is going to be a very bad thing for the nation, and for the politics of the nation, if attempts are going to be made one after another to buy various interests or to hold out political bribes to them. I am persuaded in my own mind that farmers who take the larger view will not give any special welcome to this Bill. I am convinced that there must be many farmers who will see one of the consequences of this Bill will inevitably bring about. The President of the Local Government Board deprecated a cleavage between the interests of the country and the interests of the town. I deprecate that cleavage. Anyone who knows how closely country and town ought to be linked together would deprecate anything that is going to drive a wedge between them, but I am convinced that this Bill is going to drive a wedge between them, and will cause a great deal of irritation and ill-feeling at a time when there will be in any case, as the result of dislocation and upset following the War, a good deal of unrest in industrial centres. They will say, "The agricultural interest in the House of Commons took time by the forelock, and although the aftermath of war means a great deal of suffering and upset to others they safeguarded their interests up to the year 1922." That argument will undoubtedly be driven home, and I am quite sure it will not be for the good of the farmers in the long run that that should be widely said.

There is an impression at present that there are many interests in the country which have fared far worse during the last three years than the farmers have done, and that if we were to be specially good in legislation to certain interests we might have selected other interests than agriculture. There will be a tremendous upset and dislocation, and unless there be very wise foresight indeed there will undoubtedly be a good deal of unemployment in labour circles following the War, but one cannot see that very much special provision is being made at present in that direction, and if workmen find themselves unemployed as the result of demobilisation and disorganisation and lack of foresight, the argument will come home to them that during that time and for years afterwards the farming interests were being specially protected by Act of Parliament. This Bill I think, is wrong because it not only gives encouragement to the good farmer who does break up new land, but it is equally good to the farmer who does not do anything. There might have been quite a good justification from the standpoint of war conditions in giving an extra bounty for extra production, but there can be no justification for basing it upon all production, production which we should have had in any case and which does not represent necessarily any extra labour or risk. What is going to happen as the result of what we have done? Are we going to have candidates at the next election competing with each other to promise to amend the Bill? Why not? There is nothing inspired about the figures which have been put into it. They are purely arbitrary figures. The President might almost have put certain figures into a hat and drawn them out and said, "These are going to be the figures I am going to put into the Bill." I do not know any reason at all why candidates at the next election should not compete against each other, especially in agricultural constituencies, and say, "If you return me I will amend the Bill, extend the scope of its duration, and raise the prices which are now guaranteed to the farmer." That is not good politics. That is bad politics.

The question arises, if this comes about, or a good deal of it, will farmers be grateful for the Bill in the long run? My own opinion is that the most wideawake of the farmers in the long run will not thank the House of Commons for what it is now doing. I believe it is going to be very irritating. There is going to be an amount of State inspection that the farmers have never had yet, and I do not believe there is any class in the country which will be less tolerant of State interference and State inspection than the farming class. And yet you cannot administer a Bill which is possibly going to give large bounties out of public money without inspection. You cannot give it without any sort of check or safeguard. And that inspection will be put upon the farmer whether he gets anything out of the Bill or not, because inspection will have to be done before you know what the price is going to be, and, consequently, even if the farmer gets nothing out of the Bill when his crops come to be sold, the inspection will have to be done just the same, and he will have to submit to this State interference, and I am quite sure there are a good many farmers who will not thank those who are supporting this measure if that is one of the results. I am also convinced that the Bill as it stands will lead to no end of litigation. It will be a very excellent Bill for lawyers. There are any number of knotty legal points in it, and quarrels will come up constantly about its interpretation, and there will be constant litigation between the farmers and the nation itself in regard to the payment of these bounties as to whether the farmer is really entitled to what he is claiming. On all these lines you will have no end of trouble.

I will say a word about the position of the agricultural labourer, because support of the Bill is being asked for by the putting forward of the idea of the legal minimum wage. I am convinced that something would have had to be done for the agricultural labourer in any case. The oppression and degradation of the agricultural labourer was one of the causes why agriculture declined, why many parts of the countryside were desolate and why food production fell off. There is not the least doubt about that. I am convinced that many agricultural labourers who have joined the Colours would never have gone back to the countryside under the old conditions. With all the lack of security and of independence the agricultural labourer in far too many cases was a mere serf, pulling his forelock to the parson and the squire. I believe this would have had to be radically altered in any case if you are going to build up the countryside, so that even if this Bill had not been brought forward something very radical indeed would have had to be done. I do not think anything very radical has been done. You have fixed the minimum for the agricultural labourer at 25s. a week, which is worth about 14s. 6d. judged by pre-war conditions. It was a great mistake to put a figure of that kind into the Bill at all. Either you should have had a better figure or no figure at all, and left it to the agricultural Wages Boards to determine what the figure should be. I object to the Bill, most of all, because in my opinion it is really bolstering up a bad land system, and it is the bad land system that is responsible for the fact that food production is much lower than it ought to be. I do not believe there is any Member of the House, no matter what point of view he stands for, who does not want to see this country put to its best and most productive use so far as agriculture is concerned. We ought to produce within our shores the utmost we possibly can of our food supplies. I am certain that it is wise and right to do that, but I attribute a great deal to the present system of land ownership, which very often encourages game preserving and which discourages even the building of decent houses for the labourers, and very often discourages good agriculture, because the best farmer never knows when he is going to be penalised by a rise in rent for his extra industry. That agricultural system stands condemned, and my own view is that the present system of ownership is doomed and will not survive what the country is now going through, and this Bill is an attempt to bolster it up in place of facing the actual facts. I believe the day of large estates and of pleasure estates is gone, and that we have to rebuild a new peasantry with security of tenure, with independence and strength and manhood, and that that can be done, but will not be done by means of this Bill. The more people outside understand the Bill the less they will be satisfied with it, and therefore the appeal in the long run will come from this House to the people outside, and when they fully understand all that is involved I have no doubt as to what their reply will be.

I think it has been my privilege to listen to more speeches on the Bill than anyone in the House. I congratulate the hon. Member (Mr. Anderson) upon putting the case against the Bill about as high as it can be put. I do not think it can be put more strongly. But I will ask him to realise that the considerations he advanced were not very abstruse and must have crossed the mind of everyone who had to consider whether the Bill deserved our support or not. His main ground of objection to it, though he ended by suggesting that it was not sufficiently idealistic, as if in the middle of a war you could rebuild the whole agricultural position of the country, was that it was treating one individual industry in a special way and giving it special legal advantages. Of course, we all agree that that is in itself an objectionable thing to have to do. We none of us like to single out any particular industry and give it either specially advantageous or disadvantageous treatment under the law. But if there is a national need for special treatment you have to swallow your dislike of that process. I quite agree that there are political dangers in giving legislative advantages to any industry. We know quite well the difficult position that is occupied by Members who represent armament constituencies. They have a perpetual interest in the maximum output of armaments, and we realise the political objection that results from that position. But what is the alternative? Does the hon. Member think we need more corn or not? If we do need more corn, he has not provided us with any alternative to this Bill; and that is the simple fact, that this Bill, which has gone through a very severe and prolonged criticism, holds the field as a measure of corn production. Of course when there is national need for abnormal treatment of industries they must receive special treatment. Let me take a very simple example that will occur to anyone—that is, in regard to the artillery and the optical glass trade. No one wants to bolster up the optical glass trade as such, but no one will ever want to see the artillery handicapped by inferior optical glasses if they ever have to enter a war again. In such cases the nation must expect to deal with special branches of manufacture.

The two objections which throughout these Debates have continually recurred are, first, that the farmers have taken an advantage for which the State is getting no security and no advantage—that there is no quid pro quo. The second criticism is that the Wages Board is inadequate for the purposes prescribed in the Bill. As to the quid pro quo, I agree there is nothing in the Bill that actually assures that more corn shall be produced in this country. We take powers in the Bill to increase the area of cultivation, but no Act of Parliament on earth can produce an extra quarter of corn. The method adopted by the Bill is based upon the simple fact of prolonged human experience that if a man has conducted his business in a position of great speculative uncertainty you will certainly stimulate his energies and his efforts if you give him security against the loss that he fears. That is a quite simple fact of human experience, and we know that it is true. We have already adopted that principle once during this War without any outcry or criticism. We all remember that in the first days of the War it appeared that shipping would not feel its position sufficiently safe, and that ships would be kept in the port and oversea traffic would be hindered. Immediately the State stepped in, and in return for a very moderate premium from the shipowners they guaranteed the shipowners security against losses. Did the right hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) then say, "Where is the quid pro quo? Here is the security, but where is the guarantee that the ships will sail?" Of course we all know that, provided the guarantee was there, the ships, being managed by very cute and sensible business men, would certainly carry on their proper business in their own way. The security was at once operative. The parallel is very close. You put this proposition to the farmer: "If you will spend more money you can be sure that you will have the advantage that your extra expense involved, because we guarantee you against substantial loss."

On the other point to which criticism has been continually directed, namely, the inadequate minimum wage, I should like to say a few words, because the subject has always been of great interest to me. It was indicative of the methods in which controversy was conducted in this House that until yesterday no one attempted to examine what are the wages paid to agricultural workers. We had last month in the "Labour Gazette" the latest figures of agricultural wages obtainable, but no one elected to examine the problem from that point of view. It has always been a principle in starting minimum wages to take existing facts, to improve them as far as you can, and to set up the board with the assurance that the improvement, when you start, will continue. What are the facts as revealed in the "Labour Gazette" as to agricultural wages? The Return related to January, 1917. Admittedly wages have gone up since then, but it is not unreasonable to take the wages of January, 1917, as affording a reasonable criterion of what is likely over the period of the succeeding six years. You are given a list of cash wages, and you are told that, according to previous Board of Trade investigations, the allowance to be added to these cash wages varied from 2s. to 4s. That was away back in 1907. It is admitted that that allowance will have increased largely in value. Let us put it at 4s. a week, which means £10 a year. As an average value of allowance I do not think that would be regarded as an unreasonable figure. Of course, in many cases the allowance is much larger and in many cases much smaller. If you add that 4s. to the mean wages you find that in thirteen counties in England and Wales the mean cash wages, plus this 4s., are less than 25s. Remember, these are the mean cash wages. Anybody who hat examined large schedules of wages in unorganised trades knows that you can, reasonably assume that a large proportion of individuals will be earning at least 2s. below the mean. If you deduct 2s. you will find that there are at least thirty counties in England and Wales in which the figure would still be below 25s. I do not want to put that in the least bit too high or to make too much of it, but it is surely obvious that on the wages of January, 1917, 25s. would mean an advance in an appreciable number of cases in various parts of the country. I voted for 25s. as against 30s. on these facts with perfect contentment. On that basis I am perfectly sure that the Agricultural Wages Board will be able to erect a system of higher wages in favoured districts, and that the labourer will start upon his upward time well furnished with a solid pair of boots and with food in the pantry. I do not ask much more in passing a Bill of this sort.

I want to make a final appeal to hon. Members with whom I am usually associated in matters of domestic politics, and who, I know, have the same sort of outlook as to what is in the national interest. The value of this Bill obviously depends upon its effect upon farmers, but that effect is largely psychological. The economic effect in my opinion is less than the psychological effect. The maximum result will only be obtained from this Bill if it goes out to the agricultural community with the general good will of this House. In the early stages of the Bill we had an indication of a most regrettable recrudescence of merely party feeling about this matter. If you give the farmer the impression that he is to be the football of politicians you will do more to ruin the effect of this Bill than anything else could do. If its acceptance indicates a national recognition of the need for maximum effort and our dependence upon his good work, if it indicates our trust in him to do his best for his fellow countrymen in the towns as well as his neighbour in the country, then the value of this Bill will be abundantly proved in experience.

I should like to congratulate the President of the Board of Agriculture on the tact, the skill, and the patience with which he has piloted his first Bill through this House. I think everyone will join in those congratulations, whatever they may think of the Bill. I only wish his great powers had been employed in a better cause, and I hope that his next Bill will meet with more general support and enthusiasm in all parts of the House. I do not think it has met with the enthusiastic support of any Member, not even of the right hon. Gentleman himself. I wish him better luck next time. Whatever the outcome of this Bill may be, I take it that there are three things for which the right hon. Gentleman is working, namely, to make com more plentiful, to produce a cheaper loaf, and to put the wages of agricultural labourers on a higher level. We all hope and trust, although I have my suspicions, that his hopes may be realised in that respect. If they are, no one would be more surprised or more pleased than I shall be. My hon. Friend (Mr. Anderson), in his able speech, said that we were to have this Bill at the expense of a cleavage between dwellers in town and country. We do not want that at this time, and if that is to be the outcome of the Bill it had better be thrown away at once. The whole burden of the last two speeches made by the Prime Minister, when he last spoke here on this subject, and also of his speech at the Queen's Hall, on Saturday, was a plea for unity. More than one hon. Member has expressed the belief that the result of this Bill will make for disunion and cleavage between the dwellers in town and country. I have given my general support to the Bill, but, as a London Member, I am afraid that my Constituents will not thank me for the support I have given, because a great many of them will think they will have to pay the price in higher taxation by and by if this Bill passes into law, as it will do shortly. I hope, however, that goodwill and encouragement will come out of it.

7.0 P.M.

References have been made, more particularly in Committee, to the counties which paid low wages, and one of these counties is my own county, the county of Dorset. Since this Bill has been in Committee I have been down to Dorset, and I have made careful inquiries about the rate of wages paid to agricultural labourers there. Whatever the rate may have been in January last, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and the House that it is different to-day, and Dorsetshire can hold up its head with other counties, I am pleased to say. Dorset does not possess the richest pasture lands, nor the best growing corn lands. Therefore, it pays its wages to-day under certain disabilities. The part of Dorset which is represented by the hon. Member for East Dorset (Captain Guest) is not at all a rich pasture or corn-growing district. The Isle of Purbeck has stone hills on one side of the valley and chalk hills on the other side, and the Isle of Portland's principal product is stone. There is a little grazing land for sheep, running twelve miles into Dorset itself. The valley between the Purbeck Hills contains, to a large extent, scrubby and heath lands. Then, in the region of the Rivers Frome and Piddle, you find marshy land. It is not until you get to the Valley of Blackmore, which is in the western end of Dorset, that you get really good pasture and corn-growing land. Yet to-day the average wage of the labourer in Dorsetshire is £1 a week, in addition to which he has a cottage, a ton of coal, almost as much wood as he likes, land for growing potatoes, £1 extra in hay time and £2 extra in harvest time. I think that that is not so bad for a county that is only a third-rate county as an agricultural county. I thought that I would like to state this to the House, because I believe that there has been a general impression abroad, in this House particularly, that Dorsetshire is a disgrace to England, and I am very glad to do something towards getting rid of that idea. I can only wish now that the Bill may realise all the hopes of the right hon. Gentleman.

I think that a great number of Members of this House do not realise what this Bill is going to do. It is called the Corn Production Bill, but it is really a Land Nationalisation Bill. If it is going to be a Land Nationalisation Bill, it should be out and out a Land Nationalisation Bill, and should not be introduced under the guise of a Corn Production Bill. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that 6,000 acres additional of corn are being grown this year, and I rather understood him to indicate his opinion that that was the result of this Bill.

The right hon. Gentleman will agree that a great portion of this land was ploughed and planted before that time.

I do not care to introduce personal matters, but from my knowledge of my part of the country there was a certain amount—I cannot say how much—which had been sown with wheat and oats before the 23rd of February. There had been a great increase in the area of land devoted to the production of corn before that time. The question is—how is the Bill going to aid the production of corn? Two or three things are necessary for the production of corn. One is the provision of capital and the other is the confidence of the farmer and landlord to induce them to find the capital to increase the cultivation of land which costs money. Is the Bill going to do anything to increase the confidence of the landlord, the farmer or the capitalist, to put money into the land? Nothing of the sort. It will have absolutely the contrary effect. If one looks to the Prime Minister's speech of the 23rd of February, which is a very interesting speech, one finds that he gives a great many guarantees and promises. I do not think that any of them have been kept. One of them is this: are down to pre-war prices, not because of any Bill or the act of any section of the Government or of any Controller, but because encouragement has been given to people to produce what is wanted, and potatoes consequently have been produced and prices have gone down. If you desire to increase the production of corn and wheat, why not fix minimum prices which would give the farmer and landlord every encouragement to invest their capital in the hope of reaping the benefit from that investment. This Bill does absolutely the contrary in all these directions.

A great deal has been said about wages. I am not afraid of stating my own opinion, but it is very difficult in this House to take up an unpopular cause, averse to giving good or high wages to anybody. But the wages of the agricultural labourer have increased very much during the last two or three years. The cost of living does not apply to them in anything like the way in which it applies to the ordinary working man because the agricultural labourer in nine cases out of ten has a good garden or a good allotment on which he produces a large quantity of what is consumed by himself and his family. The hon. Member for Burnley actually read what he called a farm labourer's budget in which one of the items was sixpence per week for vegetables. No agricultural labourer that I ever came across spends a farthing on vegetables. He grows them all himself and in many cases he has vegetables for sale. It is all very well to say that the agricultural labourer should have 30s. a week, or whatever the sum may be, and nobody would be more pleased than I if that could be done. But how can it be done? It cannot be done unless the farmer has got it to give. The farmer will not have it unless you make his occupation profitable. Under the Bill his occupation will not be made profitable. The result may be that he will not be able to improve the cultivation of the land or increase the production of corn. If that is so, the labourer will not get the wages which hon. Members opposite think he ought to get, and in many cases labour will not be employed at all. The hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the Board of Agriculture, in reply to a question I think about a fortnight ago, said that the cost of producing a quarter of wheat was 67s. 6d. The Food Controller has put the price at 71s. If wages increase, how is the farmer going to make a profit out of that price? Of course it is very difficult to say what exactly a quarter of wheat does cost as it varies so much in different localities.

If my right hon. Friend has seen the returns, he will know that it is nothing like 67s. 6d.

I have seen all sorts of returns and do not always believe them. I know what was said on that occasion and on the Second Reading. When the hon. Gentleman said, taking wages at 25s. a week and the minimum price at 45s., the result would be that the farmer would be 1s. an acre worse off under this Bill than before the War. That is from a Member of the Government which is bringing forward this Bill. Therefore I say that proof has been given that this Bill is not going to be of advantage to the farmer, and therefore it will not be of advantage to the labourer. I may remind the House of what the Prime Minister said on the 23rd of February with regard to Wages Boards:

"We discussed for some time the question whether you should have a Wage Board to fix wages or whether yon should have a fixed minimum. That is what influenced us eventually in not setting up a Wage Board. The farmer—I will not say preferred to know the worst, but he preferred to know exactly what he had to face. He did not want to be bothered with Wage Boards; he preferred to concentrate the whole of his mind on ploughing the land."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd February, 1917, col. 1602, Vol. XC]

A truer statement than that of the Prime Minister was never made, but he has absolutely broken the pledge which he gave on the 23rd of February—I do not know why—and he has introduced a Wages Board into the Bill when he gave excellent reasons for not so doing. Everyone knows that especially in harvest time it is absolutely necessary to take advantage of the weather. The farming industry is not like manufacturing, where you produce a certain thing. You can put the people into some concentrated place, and you can have them all there under your eye. In the case of a farm you have to collect the men perhaps from a mile distant, and before you can get them to where you want to bring in the corn or hay a shower of rain comes on and your work is spoiled and you have to begin all over again. Or perhaps the weather remains fine, you are able to get your men and to bring in your crops. What is going to happen under the Wages Board? A man may be summoned before that board on one or two of the only fine days of the year, and may have to prove that he gave 25s. and not 24s. 6d. to a man, or that the labourer was an able-bodied man, or was affected by some sort of mental infirmity; he may have to do all that, and lose the fine days which he may never get again. That is no fancy picture, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree, and it is an illustration of the absolute truth of the words of the Prime Minister on the 23rd February, and why he departed from them I cannot possibly think. The Prime Minister said:

"There is no memory as tenacious as that of the tiller of the soil, and the furrows are still in the agricultural mind. Those years have given the British farmer a fright of the plough, and it is no use arguing with him. You must give him confidence; otherwise he will refuse to go between the shafts."

How are you going to give the farmer confidence, when a Government Department has power to say that in their opinion he is not cultivating the land properly or that he is not cultivating it in the best interests of the country—and advance that opinion without giving any reasons for it? The Government Department can say that he is not cultivating the land in the best interests of the country, and they can take his farm and let it to somebody else for five years. The farmer does not know when a body of officials from Whitehall may not come down upon him and turn him out of his farm and let it to somebody else. The man cannot go to his landlord, who has nothing to do with the farm taken from him; there is no provision in the Bill to give the landlord power to intervene; all that happens in his case is that some time or other the land would be returned to him, or he may go before an arbitrator to ask for damages in respect of what has been done to his land. And that is called giving confidence to the landlord and the farmer. When the country comes to know what this Bill means, they will regret that many hon. Members in this House did not take the trouble either to read the Bill or to follow the proceedings on the measure or the Amendments introduced into it, and allowed the Government to bring forward a Bill which is nominally for the encouragement of corn production, but is one really to nationalise the land, and to bring forward the Socialistic plans of certain hon. Members of this House under the guise of increasing the production of the land. Hon. and right hon. Members well know that without that they could never get the provisions of Part III. and Part IV., which are by far the more important provisions in the measure. We are told that this is a Bill which is going to increase the food of the people, and under that guise and pretence it is nothing more than a Bill for nationalising the land of the country. As I said in the Committee stage, it would have been far better and far fairer if the Government had said honestly and boldly, "We think the present system of land tenure is wrong, and we are going to nationalise the land and take it away from the present owners."

I desire to reply to one or two points raised on the other side. They say that there is certain land which has been badly cultivated that ought to have been growing corn, and which, according to their account, has been neglected in the past. That was the contention put forward by the hon. Member for Attercliffe, who said that the poor production of the land is due to the bad land system. But I would point out that there was a time, many years ago, when we produced three times as much from the land as we do now, having exactly the same land system, and the present reduced production from the land is in no way due to the land system. The great reduction in our food supply, and the great danger to it, has been due to Free Trade, and to nothing else. The Free Traders have not yet been convinced, and I wish we could convert them. I speak as a Tariff Reformer, and I want to say very clearly that this Bill is not a Tariff Reform Bill, or anything like it; it is a Bill working on entirely different lines. That is a view of the subject which has not been put forward, and I think it is important that it should be made quite clear. I frankly admit that it is a departure on two or three points from the Free Trade principles. In the first place, it introduces the principle of the minimum wage, which is, of course, an interference with ordinary economic laws. If prices had been allowed to go up, you would have got more production, and it seems only fair to the farmers that something should be done to compensate them for the great reduction of money that they would otherwise have got. It is only right that something should be done for them in the form of insurance, or security with regard to the future.

The thing that makes me most sure that the Bill is a sound one is the extraordinary lack of weight in the various arguments against it. The right hon. Member for Dewsbury said that we ought to have stored two or three years' supply of corn. It is a pity he did not do it, and carry out his own programme. If he had done that we would not be in the position we are to-day. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Commander Wedgwood) said that all this was really of no use, and we might as well leave the land down in grass; that if the War was still going on in September, 1918, all of us would be ruined, and we might just as well starve. That does not appear a very attractive programme for his electors. I would remind him that things have happened since the Bill was first introduced. Two big things have happened. First, we have had the events in Russia, which mean that the War may go on very much longer than anybody thought likely when the Bill was first introduced. The other big thing that has happened is that the Americans have come in. Can you imagine anything more foolish than the programme of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, who proposes that if the War is going on next year—and he proposes it at the very time that the power of the American nation is brought to bear, and when we may be winning the War—we may be all ruined, and might as well starve. The fact is, there has really been no programme put forward alternative to this Bill. The various suggestions put forward have been really trivial. I say, as representing an urban constituency, that it is time some protest was made against the suggestion of so many representatives of urban constituencies that it lies upon them to attack farmers and the agricultural interest. I think that we in the towns ought to give support to the agricultural interest. The hon. Member for Haggerston spoke of the anxiety among the poor people in urban constituencies, but it seems to me that these are the very persons who are going to suffer if they do not back up the agricultural interest and get increased production from the land. In the case of Germany with all their food control, and their extraordinary system of numbering everything down to even the cat, it has been found, whatever has been said and done, that it was always the towns that suffered from shortage of food. If we do have to spend any money out of the taxes—I think it is very improbable—in connection with this Bill and the farming interest, nobody should do it more gladly than the towns, because there is no doubt whatever that if there was any question of starvation it would be the people in the towns who would be the first hurt.

I think the right hon. Gentleman deserves to be congratulated on having passed a Bill so complicated and so difficult as this one, and it certainly never would have passed if it had not been for the invariable good humour with which he met his critics all round. I am afraid, however, that this Bill will not help anybody, and that after it has been working some time the farmers will be rather disappointed with it. I really rejoice at the introduction of the Bill, because it is the first admission, after so many years, that the Government have any liability or any concern with the farmers whatsoever. What the Bill may do, so far as England, Wales, and Scotland are concerned, I do not know. On general principles I do not at all believe that you will ever have a satisfactory arrangement in Great Britain so long as the farmers are not made the owners of their farms. In my country the farmers are rather alarmed about this Bill. I must be perfectly frank with the right hon. Gentleman and say that I think it is no fault of his, and that he had nothing to do, I suppose, in the way of being responsible for the Clauses of the measure. The Irish tillage farmers are very much concerned about this Bill, because they see that it is going to inflict upon them a new swarm of officials. Ireland is overrun with officials, and every Prime Minister you have had in this country has introduced a new group of officials, leaving the old ones as well. We are now going to have a new class of officials to see whether or not we farm properly. It would be necessary for those gentlemen to walk very circumspectly because farmers are very crusty customers and especially those who own their own farms. If any of those gentlemen imagine that they are going to teach the farmers in my county of Wexford, where we till more than in any other county, how to farm they will find themselves very much mistaken, and if they think they are going to put in force any wonderful theories of administration they will find themselves up against a stone wall. My farmers take the matter rather seriously and are talking of defence associations to protect themselves against this Bill. I hope matters will not come to that, but the situation is one which requires careful handling.

The difficulty about this Bill is this, that we have to interpret it under constant risk of Orders from the Food Controller, so that one never knows where one is. The Bill proposes to give a certain price for corn and the Food Controller says, "Oh, no; I am going to give you another price." Then somebody comes along from some of the Departments and says, "The Food Controller will only give you a particular price for a certain class of corn." All these difficulties, which make the Bill really incomprehensible to us, will not make for its very successful operation in the near future. I imagine that for a considerable time this Bill will be largely a dead letter, and I do not think it is proposed that there will be any interference with the ordinary markets or with the way that farmers carry on their business, and that the various Orders will be like the idle wind which blows either above you or below you, and will not affect farmers who mind their business. The farmers are very anxious about it and I would like to impress upon whoever is in charge that they will have to walk very carefully if they are to secure that the farmers will be friends and not enemies. Nobody would like to embark on another sea of litigation. Nobody wants to see a new war between farmers and labourers. Personally, I think that one of the best things in the Bill is the provision as to Wages Boards, which, I understand, will be locally administered, so that we will be able to arrive at a wage suitable to the different localities. The question is a very thorny and complicated one, and one which cannot be solved in a moment. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman in getting a Bill of this character through the House in such a short time.

I desire to join in the general tribute on the personal side to the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board. I only wish that the merits of the Bill could be as many as the merits of the Minister, and if they had been it would have had a more easy passage through the House and more general acceptance in the country. The measure has been introduced on the basis of a war measure to meet the food difficulties arising from the War, but it has been a measure designed to carry a certain policy right on into the times of peace. It is designed to last for six years, and the right hon. Gentleman himself, while declining to extend it for a longer period as some of those usually associated with him asked should be done, expressed his own sympathy with that object. These things alone show that the Bill, though brought in as a war measure, is really intended to carry this particular policy into the times of peace, and the Debates have shown that increasingly. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Brighton (Captain Tryon) blamed the decadence of agriculture upon Free Trade. I venture to submit, in answer to that, that the decadence of agriculture in this country is not due to the fact that our commercial policy has been free, which in my opinion is sound as far as it goes, but that our land system has been thoroughly bad. Indeed, the principal criticism of this Bill seems to be that it seeks to increase cultivation and promote agriculture without attempting to remove any of the real causes of the evil. We have a bad system of land tenure, we have a bad system of taxation, we have an antiquated system of management, and in very many cases, in the bulk of cases, no proper accounts are kept, and there is no attempt to remedy these things. They fall back upon the fallacy which underlie the old Corn Laws, and the same fallacy underlies this new corn law, that if you want to increase production there is no need to deal with the causes, pass over the causes and try to attain the result merely by increasing the prices or by guaranteeing an increased price. Why, Sir, in agriculture, as in all modern production all over the world, the secret of progress lies not in increasing the price of the produce, but in decreasing the cost of the production. This Bill will not decrease the cost of production. It does not remove any of the things that swell the cost of production, it does not remove any of the evils.

Various suggestions have been made by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen as to what should be done. I would venture to add to them in this way by saying that one of the first things that ought to be done by way of putting agriculture on a sound basis is to give security of tenure to the man who is cultivating the land and to make sure that he is neither rated nor taxed or rented on the improvements that he may make. Until that is done he will not have encouragement for his improvements, and those improvements should be free from both taxation and rating whether they are made by the tenant or by the landlord. That, I believe, would be the basis of an improvement. Another thing that we want is this. The general aim of a measure like this is to increase production by forcing cultivation down to the less productive land. I venture to suggest that before we try to force cultivation on to the less productive lands we ought to make the more productive lands far more available than they are now. Speaking of my own country, I know how much rich land is used for parks and pleasure grounds, and how the people who win a livelihood from the land are driven back to places where it is hard enough to win a livelihood. That is an entirely false position. I know the objections that have been made by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City against certain parts of this Bill, but whatever form of pressure is adopted and whatever method is adopted, instead of seeking to bring in the poorer land we ought first to seek to use the richer land. The adoption of the contrary policy will have this result and is having this result already, seeing that the rent represents the difference between the productive capacity of the richer land and the poorer land in cultivation, the more you force production on to the poorer lands the more you increase the rent of the richer lands. In giving figures about the cost of production the right hon. Gentleman said in answer to a number of questions that I put that the rent that had to be paid was taken into account in considering the cost of production. As a business matter for the farmer that may be sound enough, but if we want to get real information as to the cost of production throughout the country we ought not to take the rent into consideration in that way, because if we do then the cost of producing a certain amount of corn on land which produces six quarters will be as great as the cost of producing corn on land which produces three quarters, and, in fact, if you proceed on that principle, and that is the principle on which these statistics are given, the further you go in forcing production on to poorer land the more you increase the cost of production per quarter, with the almost paradoxical result that if this Bill extends cultivation, as it may do, to the poorer lands instead of reducing the cost of production you actually are increasing the cost of production per quarter.

When this Bill was introduced we had suggestions that there would be a great increase in the amount of production. Those seemed hopeful promises rather than estimates and it is not surprising that the prospect of greatly increased production has steadily receded into the background. It has been a little remarkable that this has gone through a series of stages. In the first place when we were told that there would be greatly increased production, the attitude taken up by my hon. and right hon. Friends here was that while they might give some support to the Bill they were not very keen on it while the general attitude of the leaders of the Liberal party who sit on these benches as well as of the party as a whole was this, that whatever means should be adopted of guarantee it should be limited to those cases where there was increased production. Th right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, and the Government, would not hear of any such thing. They changed, indeed, from the basis of production to the basis of acreage. They had to do that for various reasons and for the reason that their proposal would have been unworkable. Then comes a third stage, where the idea of increased production has been gradually receding. The President made a great point of this that while we wanted to increase production we wanted also to maintain production, and that the man who cultivated as great an area as he was cultivating before was entitled to the benefits of this Bill; and then he went on, logically enough, a step further and said that the man would still be entitled to the benefits, even if the area were decreased, provided that by the use of fertilisers he kept the production to what it was before.

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say—and he knows I would be the last to do him any injustice—that the man who produced the same amount was entitled to the benefits of the Bill in the same way as the man who produced the greater amount, whether he did that by maintaining his acreage or by more thorough cultivation. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that, and if I am wrong I hope he will forgive me.

I think the hon. and learned Gentleman is quite right this time. He stated that I said something about decreased areas. I did not say that.

I do not want to press that for a moment. I fully accept what the right hon. Gentleman has said as to his statement, and if I may put it in the way in which he accepts it, he holds that the man who produces the same amount is entitled to the benefits of the Bill whether he produces the amount by cultivating the same area or by more thorough cultivation. I understood that the right hon. Gentleman agreed to that.

The real point I am leading up to is this: It was then suggested from this bench that, assuming that the benefit of the Bill ought not to be extended to the man who was actually producing less, and who because part of his land, if you like, was not being properly cultivated, was in fact interfered with by the Board of Agriculture and served with a notice. It was suggested that in that case he should not be entitled to the financial benefits of the Bill. That seemed a very reasonable proposition, but it did not appeal to the Government, and they declined to receive anything of that sort. Some of my Friends on these benches who have supported the Bill were a little fluttered when they found that to be the case, and my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Durham (Mr. A. Williams) said that if the Government did not accept some Amendment of that character it would be very difficult for him to justify to his electors his position in supporting the Bill and in causing them to contribute to the guarantees which the Bill contains. I am inclined to think that he may have that difficulty, and that those who support this Bill may have that difficulty, whether the smaller concession was granted or not. I myself did not take any part in asking for that concession, because my own view was that it was a matter of detail, a matter of comparatively unimportant detail, and that what we were concerned in was the real provisions of the Bill.

Some references have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Mr. Denman) to what had occurred in the Debate, but I must altogether take exception to the suggestion he has made that this Bill has been opposed on party-grounds or from any party standpoint. There has been no evidence of that in the Debate; in fact, the Debates have run the other way. We have all been trying to support the Government as far as we possibly can on general questions, and even on this Bill many who have had their doubts as to the measure have decided to support the Government, not on the merits of the Bill, but for fear of causing even an appearance of disunion. I am one of those who have tried to do that in other matters as far as I possibly could, but this Bill seems to me so financially unsound and so economically unsound that I considered it right to take up the position which I have taken of criticising it, and I hope criticising it within reason, and giving reasonable grounds for my views, whether they be right or whether they be wrong. One great disadvantage of the Bill, even apart from its economic merits, is the danger that it may cause serious cleavage in the country. That danger was not sufficiently realised at first, but it is, I think, being realised more and more. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Exchange Division (Mr. L. Scott) made a special appeal yesterday—and what he says always carries great force with me—that the Bill should be regarded as an agreed Bill between people in the towns and people in the country districts. I am afraid it is rather late in the day to press for that, and I am afraid that the hope that that should be the case is not likely to be realised, seeing that neither of the parties have been consulted, and particularly that the dwellers in the towns, on whom the burden if the guarantees come into operation will most heavily fall, hardly realise what has been going on. If nature is bountiful and in the next two years we have good harvests, then we find that they may have to make up for the bounty of nature at a time when they are burdened by taxation by being taxed in order to compensate the farmers for the loss that they have thereby incurred. Indeed, it is doubtful whether the ultimate financial benefit will go to the farmers, because, for reasons with which the House is familiar and which I have no desire to repeat, it seems to me that the benefit will rather go ultimately to the landlord, I think it is difficult to see what other class will really benefit. A good many of those in a position to speak for the farming interest have told us that the farmers, on the whole, do not like this Bill, and that they think by accepting various provisions of the measure they are paying too dear a price for the benefit of the guarantee. My impression is that that view will gain ground increasingly. It is not only the people in the town that will object; I doubt whether farmers will benefit, and I am certainly of the opinion that the agricultural labourers will not.

We have heard a great deal of talk about the minimum wage, but the minimum wage is low, and I am glad to say that there are many parts of the country in which wages are considerably above the figure of the minimum wage, and that, therefore, the minimum wage provision will have no effect. The agricultural labourer may, however, be very seriously affected in this way—that the result of the Bill, in maintaining the prices that farmers can get, the rents they may have to pay, and the rents that the landlords may receive, will probably be to send up, as has already been the case, the price of land in many parts of the country. I do not say that is the exclusive result, because it is partly the result of the increase in the prices of produce during the War. The guarantees, however, have certainly contributed to it, the net result being that the prices of agricultural land are higher than they have been for many years, and it will be increasingly difficult to obtain on fair terms land on which the agricultural labourer can work for himself, and that is one of the very first things he needs if he is to improve his position. We want to give him, as far as we can, the land to fall back upon. Indeed, great as the present difficulties are, there may be various ways in which this Bill will increase them. Over and above these difficulties, I am sorry that it should be of a character to increase the cleavage between the interests of the country and the interests of the town. In fact, that hardly seems to me to be a fair statement, because it is not only the towns that will be affected. I believe the agricultural labourers will also be affected, while the taxpayers in agricultural districts who are not farmers or owners of land will be affected too, and the net result will be that the cleavage will be not between the dwellers in the towns and the dwellers in the country, but between the taxpayers as a whole and the landed interest as a whole. Indeed, it seems likely to me that this Bill will bring into clearer relief the fundamental issue of the right of the people to the land, and the one good feature that I see about it is that whatever its merits or demerits are it will bring that issue up in a clear and unmistakable way. My own impression is that when that issue is once raised it will not be settled until it is settled satisfactorily on a policy based on the fundamental rights of the people of this country to the land of this country.

As a general supporter of this Bill, I would like to be allowed to give two or three reasons for my attitude in the matter. Three reasons especially I would like to mention. First, the Government have stated—and I endorse their view if I may be allowed to say so—that this Bill is calculated and intended to increase the food supply in order that we may be enabled to support our Army and our country, and bring the War to a successful issue. If the War should, unhappily, last a year or two longer, there is little doubt that but for this increased food supply which this Bill is designed to give, we should probably fail to effect our purpose of winning the War through lack of food. That, to my mind, is the strongest possible argument in support of the Bill. My next reason is that it will make us less dependent for our food supply on oversea countries than has hitherto been the case, and I cannot help thinking that we should have been very neglectful of the interests of the country if, having regard to the very high prices of the necessaries of life, the deplorably high prices, we had not taken a precaution, by increasing our native food supply, to prevent any such trouble in the future, so far as we possibly can. Another reason why I support the Bill is because it will secure a still further improvement of the position of the agricultural labourer, and will do something, in my opinion, to increase the number of people resident in the rural districts, a step very essential in the interests of maintaining the physique of the people. I am aware of the arguments that have been brought forward against the Bill. It is said, first of all, that it is bad for the consumer, bad for the taxpayer, and a dole for the landlords and farmers.

My hon. Friend here says "Hear, hear!" The landlord is precluded under the Bill from appropriating in the increased rent any advantage that would accrue to the tenant through the Bill, and he has nothing to gain. With reference to the farmer, it is a fact that farmers are not enthusiastic for the Bill. Indeed, many, I think the majority, would rather be without it. They recognise that there will be considerable interference with them in carrying on their industry, sometimes proving vexatious. They recognise, too, that in order to increase the acreage under corn we have had to break up some old pasture land that has been laid down for many years, and altogether it is causing considerable inconvenience to the farmer. On the other hand, I am confident that the farmer, recognising that this measure is necessary in order to provide food to finish the War, will patriotically do his best to carry out the Bill, and thereby support the end which the Government has in view. With reference to the taxpayer, I cannot help thinking that misrepresentation, serious misrepresentation, has been advanced In the Debate on that head. The farmer was called on to revolutionise his system of carrying on his business in the interests of the State, and the State felt it only just to give a guarantee that he should not be the loser by that transaction, and therefore has given minimum prices for corn for the next six years. Now, I submit that that is only a just and reasonable precaution. The farmer, remembering well the depression of the '80's and '90's, and the terrible losses he sustained then, compelling him to lay down his land to grass because it would not pay him to cultivate it, does not readily forget, and realises that there may be—that there will be—a return by-and-by, some years hence, to something like the same conditions. Therefore he contended that, if he responded to the State in revolutionising his system of agriculture and of carrying on his business, it was only fair that the State should guard him against heavy losses in that direction. No one contends that the minimum prices named in the Bill represent the cost of producing corn. We know quite well that, with the increased cost of cultivation, these prices would not pay the actual outlay necessary in order to produce the corn. Therefore, no one can fairly say that, with the present prospect of prices, and the devastation of war, and the probable prices for the next six years— no one for a moment can fairly contend, I think, that the State will have to make a heavy contribution—I submit there will be no contribution—towards the minimum prices. The real price is not likely for a moment to become lower than the minimum price. I think every reasonable man who knows what he is talking about will admit that in all probability the State will not have to make up any deficiency whatever, and therefore there will be no demand whatever on the taxpayer under the Bill.

I submit further that the taxpayer will save a good deal under the Bill. By the increased output of our native food supply we shall avoid the necessity of sending so much money abroad as has hitherto been the case to purchase food. We all know what an enormous sum of money we have had to spend during this War in sending gold that we wanted at home to America for food. That will be partly averted by this Bill, and I submit, therefore, that the taxpayer will benefit by the Bill rather than otherwise. The next contention is that it is bad for the consumer. I disagree with that entirely. If I thought it would make it more difficult for the general public to live, to secure the necessaries of life, I should not support the Bill; but I submit that exactly the opposite will be the result. I ask hon. Members to think what would have happened if this Bill had been passed five years ago. We should not have had the prices of the necessaries of life anything like so high as they are at present. The increased production, the increased supply, would have kept the prices at a lower level; and so I feel confident that the consumer will benefit by this Bill, because we shall produce more food at home, with the result that prices would be lower than they would be but for that increased production. The hon. Member who has just sat down (Mr. Dundas White) says that he is afraid that it will cause antagonism between town and country. That would be deplorable if it-should occur. If it does occur, I venture to say it will be because hon. Members wrongly represent to urban populations that they are contributing to the farmer and thereby rake up opposition. I noticed the other day that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) said, "How can I justify to my urban constituents voting for this Bill?" Well, if he put the matter fairly before his urban constituents, I venture to say he would show to them plainly that by the increased food supplies under this Bill the consumer in the urban and all other districts will considerably benefit.

I also support the Bill because of the fact that at last Parliament has recognised the importance of agriculture. I submit that agriculture has been treated very badly at the hands of Parliament for very many years past. We know the terrible depression of the '80's and '90's. Nothing much was done except that the Agricultural Rates Act was passed, which enabled the farmer to give considerable increases of agricultural wages—£680,000 in the second year that that remission was given. That was something done to relieve the difficulty, but the farmer was raising crops and selling them for half the price they cost in raising them, with the result that land deteriorated and a good deal of land went out of cultivation. We all know that in Essex, as a result of that depression, there were thousands of acres of land, good wheat-growing land, which remained uncultivated and could be had rent free, but no person would take it up and cultivate it. I maintain that, having regard to our dense populations, it is criminal folly to allow any such state of things as that to exist or return. Consequently, while the farmers do not want any partiality on the part of this House, they do say that their industry, after all, is the greatest in the country, that it is the foundation of the welfare of the people, and they do want at the hands of Parliament fair and just treatment. I take this Bill to be evidence, as I have said before, that Parliament at last recognise? the importance of our industry; and I have faith that Parliament will see that the farmer, in revolutionising his system to meet the requirements and the needs of the State at this critical time in the history of our country—I have faith that Parliament will see that he does not lose by his patriotism.

I know quite well that capital can be made out of this Bill in the constituencies. We shall have some people going about and saying, "I voted for more wages and you voted against." Well, I notice that those hon. Members who were very anxious to increase the figure in the Bill never did anything to better the position of the agricultural labourer when they had the opportunity in the House. Consequently it is idle, seeing that the Government have gone as far as they think they can properly go to better the position of the agricultural labourer, for others who did nothing for him when they had the chance to criticise that sincere effort. That is, to my mind, unbusinesslike and unjust. I can only say, in conclusion, that I do congratulate most heartily the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Prothero) on the way he has conducted the Bill. Those of us who were privileged to know him before are not surprised at his success and at the courtesy with which he has treated us all. I do earnestly hope that the country will recognise that this is a movement to increase the food supply. In the interests of the consumer, and in the interests of the commonwealth, I believe that agriculturists will give the Bill a fair trial and do what they possibly can to attain the end which the promoters have in view.

I wish to join, if I may, in the expression of gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Prothero) for the way in which he has piloted this difficult Bill through the House. I am perfectly sure that, whatever view we take with regard to the measure, we all hope that his wishes with regard to the Bill shall be fulfilled, and that there will be this largely increased production of corn and that the wage of the labourer will be substantially improved. I expect the right hon. Gentleman feels that, if we feel gratitude for his efforts, the best way of showing it would be, at this time of night, to allow it to go to another place. But, before we do that, there are three or four practical suggestions which I should like to make to him, which I hope may be of some advantage. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not minimise the feeling that has been created in many urban centres with regard to this measure. We shall all deplore it, because I am perfectly certain that all who have the interests of this country at heart must desire that there should be a growing community of interest and feeling between the town and the country, and that we wish not to do anything to widen the gap. What I am told so often is this, that the dweller in the town does not feel it fair at the present time that a community which he considers to be a privileged community should have at this period increased privileges cast upon it. I wish to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that I believe a good deal of this feeling would be removed if only he would do his best to see that in future the farmer pays Income Tax in the same way as other traders. An alderman of one of the leading cities in Yorkshire told me only last week that the corporation farm with which he is connected, before the War, made, roughly, £300 a year. This year, he said, that farm, which is a comparatively small one, being not more than 300 acres, has made £3,000. With figures like that, figures which are, of course, made public in the city, and with such conditions existing elsewhere, the citizens cannot understand why those who bring about such results should not pay Income Tax like other people, and also Excess Profits Duty. I believe one way of getting over the feeling that certainly exists would be to see that in the next Budget arrangements are made for the farmers to pay Income Tax.

I want to say a word or two in regard to the question of wages. I am not sure that the very remarkable speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture a fortnight ago may not have even more result in bringing about an increase in the wages of the labourer than some of the provisions of this present Bill. I do hope that the Board of Agriculture, working with the Ministry of Labour, will, by administration and wise regulation, do all that they possibly can to increase those wages. A great deal can be done, first of all, I think, by a right choice of the Central Wages Board, and, secondly, in the regulations that are issued on the question of wages. The right hon. Gentleman yesterday made a promise that in the regulations he would try to indicate that in the wage given to the agricultural labourer he desired that it should be a wage large enough for him to pay an economic rent for his cottage. I hope, also, that it will be made abundantly clear in those regulations that the Board of Agriculture desire to see, as well as the above, that the primary necessaries, food and clothing, shall be within the compass of that wage. By the terms of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman, carried yesterday, it is clear that that is his intention, because in the Amendment he desires that the Board shall fix wages which are adequate to promote efficiency. I do not believe that any hon. Member of this House feels that efficiency can be secured unless a man has proper housing accommodation, proper food, and proper clothing. Now that these Wages Boards have been established and the wage principle has been laid down, I believe it will be necessary for the Board of Agriculture or the Ministry of Labour to have a Department which really, month by month, or at certain periods, will indicate what is the cost of living for, let us say, an average family. I have alluded to this matter before, but I want to mention it again— that before the War the present Prime Minister indicated that in order to provide a man and his wife and family of three with sufficient food and clothing, and that he might pay 2s. weekly rent for his cottage—and only reckoning by the workhouse standard — that a sum of 20s. 6d. was necessary. Taking the Board of Trade figures, we all know that the figure which now is necessary is nearer 35s. than 30s. I was reckoning what the actual amount for food would be for that family at the present time—again by the workhouse standard—and I find that the amount required for food is at least 24s. I am perfectly certain that the right hon. Gentleman, from what he has said, desires that there should be a wage which would not only be sufficient to provide decent food, clothing, and housing accommodation, but that the wage will enable the labourer to have a margin for the larger life that we all desire that he should share. If that is going to be done it will be necessary for the Board of Agriculture or the Ministry of Labour to have some Department which checks these figures, and gives definite information to the Central Wages Board, because these statements, of course, will be made throughout the country, and either they must be proved or disproved. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will consider carefully the desirability of having some Department which shall be able to provide accurate figures in regard to the wage necessary to promote efficiency.

I desire to mention just one further point in regard to these Wages Boards. I believe that those who are in closest touch with the workings of the Trades Boards Act at the present time are feeling that it is necessary to enlarge the powers and scope of these Trade Boards. I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman is it. as the Bill stands at present, in the power of the Board of Agriculture, supposing that a further Bill were passed somewhat enlarging the scope of the old Trade Boards Act, for the Central Wages Board and the Wages Boards established under this Bill also to enlarge their scope as might be directed by the new Act? If that be so, I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it would be possible in another place to put in words which would enable the Trade Boards working under this Bill to gain by the experience of the working of the old Act in any new measure that may be brought before this House? In conclusion, one of the features of this Bill which I am most hopeful about is this, that I believe that it will encourage the formation of trade unions in connection with agriculture. I do not believe that we shall see a satisfactory wage established right through rural England until the agricultural labourers organise in trade unions. Now that they are bound to be represented on these trade boards, I very much hope that perhaps the greatest influence this measure may have in bringing up the wages will be to give a great impetus to the organisation of the agricultural labourers in their unions. If that is done, I am perfectly certain that none of us— and certainly not the right hon. Gentleman who has piloted this measure—will regret the action that he has taken.

The Minister of Pensions the other day, in concluding his Report on the present unrest, said that labour should take part in the affairs of the community as partners, rather than as servants. In some ways that is very true of the agricultural community at the present time, but it has not been true, I think, with regard to the wages that the agricultural labourer has received, and I very much hope that the Board of Agriculture, by vigorous administration, will be able to support the sympathic references that have been made by the President as to his wish with regard to the wage of the agricultural labourer, and that we shall see in the next few months—certainly in the next few years— the agricultural labourer receiving a wage that is a living wage, enabling him to do his work with power and with efficiency, and which all of us will feel is one that is worthy of the toil and labour he has to give.

The hon. Member has set before us the high ideals which we all know he entertains, and which I know find a responsive echo in the breast of the President of the Board of Agriculture. I should like, if I may be allowed, also to pay a tribute to the conduct of this Bill by the President. I think he has conducted it with great courtesy, great courage, and, I may particularly say, with the very greatest patience. This very difficult Bill, very controversial in many points, has been carried through without any application of the Closure, and I think that is a great testimony to the patience of the right hon. Gentleman in his conduct of this Bill. He has also adumbrated very high ideals, when the opportunity has occurred, and we all through have felt that, however much we may differ from him in our views as to the policy at present in view, we know he has at heart the real and true interests of all those with whom his office associates him in agriculture. I have, unfortunately, found it my duty to differ from him in many respects, but I am perfectly sure he does not feel that it is a personal feeling of any kind whatever. It is entirely a difference with regard to principle upon which it seems to me these matters should be raised. The hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Captain Tryon) stated that the plan of the Bill had held the field. I am afraid he has not followed very closely our proceedings here. There was another, and we think a better, plan suggested, which was that for every additional quarter of wheat or oats we should give a premium, and leave the standard which had been attained before the War where it was, and so make better use of our money in increasing production.

I ventured on Second Reading to suggest that this was really not a war measure. The hon. Member for the Tradeston Division (Mr. D. White) dealt with the application of the principles of pure economics. I only wish the House had been engaged in applying the principles of economics to this problem, but I am very much afraid our whole efforts have gone towards dodging the principles of economics, and trying to escape the effect of economic laws which nevertheless operate, whatever our small efforts may be to obviate them. I ventured to say this was really not in my view a war measure, and the whole course of the discussion has tended to confirm that view, and also the facts that have since occurred. Clauses 1 and 2 have really been rendered inoperative. There has been the fixing of prices by the Food Controller. We have had an enormous increase in the price of wheat and oats, and. therefore, to that extent Clause I is not operative this year at all. A very much higher scale has been established-Then if we look further into the Bill we find that the great Clause which provides for good cultivation whether on the part of the owner or the tenant —the Clause which: would seem of course, to be the raison d'être of a Bill of this kind in time: of war—has been in the course of the Committee put out of operation for the period of the War. The Clause as introduced would have come into operation at once, but owing to the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman it does not operate till after the War. There we have the two principal Clauses in this Bill put out of operation during the period of the War, and therefore it seems to me that we are justified in saying that this is really not a war measure. I think it is quite clear the right hon. Gentleman was placed in a difficult position. He was handed the speech of the Prime Minister and told to put it into law. Even he, with his great skill, has found that impossible. He has not been able to do without Wages Boards, as the Prime Minister suggested, nor has he been able to secure the farmer from the raising of his rent. Those two most fundamental principles have not really been embodied in this Bill. I think there really was no answer to the case which I made—that the Prime Minister's promise to the farmer that his rent should not be raised, except by the consent of the Board of Agriculture, has not been embodied in this Bill. Therefore, I realise that the right hon. Gentleman has been in. an extremely difficult position. If this had been a pure war measure to increase food production during this period of stress and strain, when everybody admits that special steps must be taken, this measure would have passed through without any trouble whatever. But it has grafted on to it a number of things so irrelevant that they cannot operate during the War, and that has caused a difficulty in dealing with this matter.

We have a very good illustration in the minimum wage, which is fixed at 25s. The operation of war conditions has made that 25s., so far from being a handsome gift to the labourer, a mere subsistence wage in the Bill, instead of being, what it ought to be, a reasonable and adequate wage to the labourer engaged in agriculture. The President, as I have said, has been unable to carry out what he hoped and intended. He told us that it was his wish that no one should share in the State guarantee who had not made a contribution to the increased production of corn. In the course of discussion in Committee he said that he would do his very utmost to devise a test by which to take care that nobody got this bonus who was not doing some thing towards increasing the food supply of the country. The right hon. Gentleman has not succeeded in devising that test I admit it was a very difficult one, but he has not succeeded, and the right hon. Gentleman is not entirely satisfied with the position in which this Bill now stands. We have a liability on the country of £104,000,000 for six years after the War. This is based on pre-war figures, and it is incurred before there is any increase whatever in production. If there is any increase in wheat or oats that liability is increased by all the acreage under increased cultivation. That is a very unsatisfactory position.

There is another feature which I consider is very unsatisfactory, and that is that the Bill does not secure for the farmer what he ought to have if we are to have a real development of agriculture— that is, security of tenure a fair rent, and security for improvements. The Bill, as it stands, is really useless for moderating the assessment of rent upon the tenant. The onus is placed upon the tenant to show that the landlord ought not to have increased his rent. He cannot make any use of that, and he is without any protection on that most fundamental question. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Camborne (Mr. Acland) rather welcomed that proposal and argued that it was desirable to encourage the landlord to put any rent he pleased upon the tenant. I contend against that. I think it is a most dangerous doctrine that you must raise the rent of the farmer in order to get better cultivation. It is said that there never was such a splendid Bill invented to disquiet the conscience of the landlord. The theory is you first raise the tenant's rent, and that does him good. Then you raise it a little more, and it does him more good, and so you go on. That is a most excellent theory for salving the conscience of the landlord, but human nature does not act in that way.

That is not a stimulus to good cultivation. It is laid down in the Bible that a man should enjoy the fruit of his own labour, and that on one should come between him and the enjoyment of his labour. No other should have the right to come and take out of his purse what he has earned and claim a larger share of his produce accordingly as he increases production. Those principles will produce cultivation here as they have done in every country where they have been applied. The Bill is very imperfect on that point. This measure is going to put upon the farmers very great difficulties in regard to production. Wages Boards and legislation of that character come from our industrial system where you have large employers of labour and trade unions protecting the workmen, and where the employers command the highest legal talent and the union do the same, with the result that they can make it perfectly clear what the terms and conditions of an industrial Bill are. But take the farmer on his lonely farm and place before him a Bill of this kind. How is he going to see the difficulties you are creating? You will compel him to get a certificate practically for all his men. There never were so many "crocks" employed on the land. Those men will have to get a certificate from the Wages Boards to say they are outside the scope of this Bill so far as the minimum wage is concerned. You are-putting upon the farmer an immense difficulty in conducting his business, and this in addition to his other difficulties.

On a great farm, comprising hundreds of acres of cereals, the farmer told me the other day that he had not a single man who could make a stack or thatch it. Fancy facing the coming harvest with a. knowledge that he has no man who can secure the crop for him when it is brought in! You are adding enormously to the difficulties of the farmers. In these Clauses you have an enormous number of pains and penalties. There are pains and penalties inflicted in ten Sections. I think that is introducing a system which I can only describe as servile. This country has been pouring out the blood of its best sons-for freedom, and while they are away at the War we are passing a measure which will impose compulsion upon them at every step, and by which their land will be taken from them when they return. That is not a course which we ought to-take. It is compulsion run mad. All the different interests in this Bill are to be compelled. The landlord is compelled to fulfil its terms, the farmer is compelled to pay a certain wage, and the consumer is compelled to pay a certain price. That is an extraordinary proposal in a country where the people are looking for an extension of freedom and liberty. This measure is in the highest sense imperfect, unfortunate, and inconsistent, and it places upon us inquisitions innumerable. If we had instituted a farmer's aid department which would sympathetically listen to the difficulties of the farmers and help them to overcome those difficulties with which they are confronted at the present moment in their farming operations, those are the sort of measures you can put up with; but with all the stimulus in the world it will be impossible without labour to fulfil the expectations aroused by a

Division No. 94.]

AYES.

[8.45 p. m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

Fell, Arthur

O'Grady, James

Amery, L. C. M. S.

Ferens, Rt. Han. Thomas Robinson

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid)

Archdale, Lieut. E. M.

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

Parker, James (Halifax)

Astor, Major Hon. Waldorf

Fletcher, John Samuel

Parkes, Sir Edward E.

Baldwin, Stanley

Galbraith, Samuel

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike (Darlingten)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.

Gardner, Ernest

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Barnett, Captain R. W.

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Pratt, J. W.

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Greig, Colonel J. W.

Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edward

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Gretton, John

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Bennett-Goldney, Francis

Hackett, John

Radford, Sir George Heynes

Bliss, Joseph

Hanson, Charles Augustin

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M.

Boyton, James

Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Durham)

Rowlands, James

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Higham, John Sharp

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Brunner, John F. L.

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Samuels, Arthur W.

Bryce, J. Annan

Hope, Harry (Bute)

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Bull, Sir William James

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Stanier, Capt. Sir Beville

Carew, C. R. S.

Hudson, Walter

Steel-Maitland, Sir A. D.

Cator, John

Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S.(York)

Stewart, Gershom

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick

Jacobsen, Thomas Owen

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Clive, Colonel Percy Archer

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.)

Clynes, John R.

Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

Keating, Matthew

Tickler, T. G.

Collins, Sir W. (Derby)

Kellaway, Frederick George

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Kenyon, Barnet

Walker, Colonel William Hall

Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

Kilbride, Denis

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs. Ince)

Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.)

Larmor, Sir J.

Walton, Sir Joseph

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Wardle, George J.

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Whitty, Patrick Joseph

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Marshall, Arthur Harold

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Wing, Thomas Edward

Dennis, E. R. B.

Morgan, George Hay

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Nolan, Joseph

Edmund Talbot and Sir E. Cornwall.

NOES.

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Jowett, Frederick William

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Chancellor, Henry George

King, Joseph

Clough, William

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.

Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Molteno, Percy Alpert

Dundas White and Mr. Anderson.

Holt, Richard Durning

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Ways and Means

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

War Loan

Motion made, and Question proposed. "That the Treasury may borrow in such manner as they think fit, on the security of the Consolidated Fund, any sums required for raising the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March,

Bill of this kind. I feel that this Bill is not fulfilling any of the purposes for which it was said to have been introduced.

Question put, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

The House divided: Ayes, 108; Noes, 14.

nineteen hundred and eighteen, and in addition a sum not exceeding two hundred and fifty million pounds, and that there shall be charged on the Consolidated Fund—

( a ) any sums which may be required to be so charged in the exercise in connection with any money to be so borrowed of any powers which are given by the War Loan Acts, 1914 to 1916, or any other enactment, in connection with money borrowed under the War Loan Acts, 1914 to 1916, or any other enactment; and

( b ) any sums which may be required for the expenses of the redemption of

( c ) any sums which may be required for the remuneration of the Banks of England and Ireland in connection with the management of any securities issued for the purpose of money to be so borrowed."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

No doubt this is a Resolution of a somewhat formal character, but I understand that it has reference to very large and important undertakings, and, though no doubt at a later period we shall have full justification and adequate information as to details given to us, yet we ought now, before we proceed any further, to have some information from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I was rather sorry that he did not rise to move this Motion instead of simply moving it in a formal manner, and I hope that either he or the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, or, better still, that both of them will now elucidate the position.

I should be very glad if it were necessary to elucidate the position to the best of my ability, but nobody understands it better than the hon. Gentleman who asks me for the information. It is really a purely formal Motion on exactly the lines as on all previous occasions, and it is intended to give authority for introducing the Bill, the terms of which will be made known to the House. I hope that with this very small amount of elucidation my hon. Friend will be satisfied.

May I ask when the Bill will be introduced, and, when it is introduced, will it be put down as the first Order of the Day? I know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks that an hour's time only is necessary. I do not want to interfere with the progress of the Bill when it is introduced, but I think we ought to have this information.

I really do not think it is reasonable to expect me to say whether or not it will be the first Order. Of course, its importance is obvious to every Member of the House, but, on the other hand, the necessity is pretty obvious too. When I said that I hope an hour would be sufficient, I was naturally expressing a hope only. Whether that will be realised depends upon the House. The terms of the Bill will show exactly what is wanted. It will only be a day or two before it is introduced.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

Naval and Military War Pensions, Etc. (Transfer of Powers) Bill

Order for consideration of Lords Amendments read.

Resolved, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."—[ Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen. ]

CLAUSE 2.—(Constitution and Powers of Special Grants Committee.)

(1) The Minister of Pensions shall as soon as may be after the passing of this Act constitute for the purposes of this Act a Committee, which shall be known as the Special Grants Committee, and shall consist of such number of persons, not being more than ten, as the Minister shall determine.

Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (1) leave out the word "ten," and insert instead thereof the word "twelve."

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

We ought to have information about this Amendment. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary, who we are very glad to see here and whose mastery of all the subjects connected with his Department we recognise, will not mind giving a few words of explanation on the three Amendments which I see on the Paper.

The three Amendments are very simple, and are really more or less formal. As to the first, under the provisions of the Bill as it left this House, there was to be a new Special Grants Committee, comprising persons who had experience in allocating pensions and so forth, which was to consist of ten persons. The House of Lords, with the assent of the Minister of Pensions, increased that number to twelve. Having regard to the amount of work that has to be done, it is thought that we shall be able to do the work better with a Committee of twelve than with a Committee of ten. As regards the other two Amendments—

I thought the hon. Member wanted me to give the explanation all at once.

I am afraid it would be out of order if you were to do so.

Lords Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 3.—(Transfer of Staff and Funds.)

(2) Out of the funds belonging to the Statutory Committee derived from or representing money provided by Parliament, there shall be transferred to a special account to be opened for the purpose at the Bank of England to be called "the Ministry of Pensions (Special Grants) Account" (hereinafter referred to as "the special grants account") the sum of five hundred thousand pounds, and the balance of such funds shall be paid into the Exchequer.

Lords Amendment: In Sub-section (2) leave out the words "at the Bank of England," and insert instead thereof the words, "in accordance with directions to be given by the Treasury."

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment is put in simply in order to meet the desire of the Treasury in regard to the handling of the funds which are being transferred from the Statutory Committee to the new Special Grants Committee. The Bill, as it left this House, said that a special account was to be opened, and the words followed

It leaves the matter entirely at the discretion of the Treasury.

9.0 P.M.

I have no doubt there is some reason for this Amendment, but I quite fail to understand it. We are cutting out the words:

"At the Bank of England."

I always regard the Bank of England as the safest bank in which to have your money in England, and therefore in the world. I am very sorry that this Amendment has to be made. I find it difficult to understand it, because it is stated on the Amendment Paper to be page 3, line 10. That refers to the Bill as first printed by the Lords. That Bill is not to be found in the Vote Office. Unfortunately, thinking that the other Orders would go on longer than they did, I had not time to go over to the other place at the end of the corridor and obtain a copy of the Bill as first printed by the Lords, therefore, I am at a great disadvantage. As a matter of fact, the words, "Bank of England," do not occur in the Bill I have here. However, I have such confidence in the hon. Gentleman that, though I cannot understand the reason he gives, I believe he understands it himself, therefore I will waive any opposition I might otherwise justly raise against this Amendment, and allow it to pass.

Lords Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 4.—(Expenses and Accounts of Special Grants Committee.)

(2) Payments out of and into the special grants account shall be made, and all other matters relating to the account and to the money standing to the credit of the account shall be regulated in such manner as the Treasury direct.

Lords Amendment: In Sub-section. (2), after the word "account" ["money standing to the credit of the account"], insert the words, "including the investment of any such money."

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment is quite a formal one. Clause 4 deals with the expenses and accounts of the Special Grants Committee. Sub-section (2) of the Bill, as it left this House, said:

(2) Payments out of and into the special grants account shall be made, and all other matters relating to the account and to the money standing to the credit of the account, shall be regulated in such manner as the Treasury direct.

These words, "including the investment of any such money," are new words. It is quite obvious that some provision should be made for the investment of the money.

It is very important indeed that any sums which are not needed for immediate application to the good purposes of these pensions should be properly invested. I hope that great care will be taken in the investment of them, especially I hope that the War Loan will not be forgotten, because that is one of the best investments we can make as a nation and one can make as an individual at the present time.

Lords Amendment agreed to.

Public Health (Prevention and Treatment of Disease—Ireland) Bill

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 1.—(Enforcement of Epidemic Disease Regulations by County Councils.)

(1) The Local Government Board for Ireland shall have power to declare that one of the authorities to execute and enforce Regulations made by the Board under Section one hundred and forty-eight of the Public Health (Ireland) Act. 1878, with a view to the treatment of persons affected with cholera or any other epidemic, endemic or infectious disease. and preventing the spread of cholera and such other diseases, shall be the council of a county, and that Section shall have effect accordingly as if a county council were an authority within the meaning of that Section:

Provided that, except in case of emergency, the Board shall not require the council of a county to execute and enforce any such Regulations without the consent of the council.

(2) Any expenses incurred by the council of a county in the execution or enforcement of such Regulations shall be raised as a county at large charge.

I notice that the hon. Baronet the Member for Wexford has four Amendments on the Paper. It may be for his convenience if I deal with them together. The first is a verbal Amendment which I do not think has any effect on the Bill one way or the other. I pass that for the moment. He may have an opportunity of asking whether the particular disease he mentions is included or not. With regard to the substantive Amendments that follow, the one to leave out Subsection (2) I find to be equivalent to a negative of the Bill. If that Amendment were carried, the Bill would be of no effect. Therefore, that is not an Amendment that I would entertain. With regard to his proposed New Clause, that could not be entertained on this Bill. On a Bill the title of which is limited to Ireland you cannot amend an Act that applies to the whole of the United Kingdom. If I understand what his purpose is, it would have to be achieved by means of another Bill.

I should like to ask whether my first Amendment could not be allowed, seeing that the Bill deals with the prevention of infectious diseases and that smallpox is the most infectious of all diseases. There is another point which may, perhaps, lead you to take a rather different view of the entire situation. Clause 2 says:

"This Act may be cited as the Public Health (Prevention and Treatment of Disease) (Ireland) Act, 1917, and may be cited with the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1907."

I will read an extract from the Public Health Act of 1878, Clause 147:

"If any registrar or any officer appointed by the guardians to enforce the provisions of the Acts relating to vaccination in Ireland shall give information in writing to a justice of the peace that he has reason to believe that any child under the age of fourteen years, being within the union or district, has not been successfully vaccinated…"

That Act is brought in in connection with this Bill, and it seems to me that, inasmuch as the Act deals with infectious diseases, and particularly the first one quoted in the Bill, possibly you might allow me to raise this question on the first Amendment.

I suggest that the question of order involves also a question of tautology. The various other epidemic diseases alluded to in Clause 1 clearly, in the ordinary acceptation of medical terminology, include such a disease as smallpox, whether it is mentioned specifically by name or not, and amongst the Regulations which the county councils might naturally be asked to enforce in regard to the prevention of small-pox will come up the question of vaccination. On the question put to you in regard to the last Amendment it is not altering the law of the United Kingdom. I served on a Royal Commission which recommended this change in the law. It has been effected in England and in Scotland. This is only to make the law uniform in the case of Ireland with what already prevails in England as the result of the Report of Lord Herschell's Commission.

I accept that statement of the position entirely and fully, but the difficulty is that the Clause on the Paper does not do what the hon. Baronet wants to do, and if it did it would not be within the scope and title of the Bill, which is limited strictly to amending Section 148 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878. The purpose the hon. Baronet has in view I clearly understand is to extend to Ireland the Vaccination Act of 1898 and the Vaccination Act of 1907, two Acts which expressly were confined to England and did not when they were passed extend to Scotland or to Ireland. A proposal of that kind must be a proposal indicated in the title of the Bill, and it is certainly beyond the scope of the present measure. But the hon. Baronet may move the first Amendment, which I take to be merely a drafting or verbal Amendment. Small-pox is already included, but on it he may put any question and get an answer.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "cholera" ["preventing the spread of cholera"], to insert the word "small-pox."

That is quite sufficient for my purpose. I wanted to raise this question on the first available opportunity, inasmuch as it is rather a burning question in the part of the country from which I come. The Vaccination Acts are administered by the boards of guardians, and I imagine the Bill would be interpreted over there that they would be administered by the county councils. I am quite certain that is how it will work out in practice. However, if that is so, obviously it is a good opportunity for allowing the people in Ireland to have the same facilities in the matter of conscientious objection as they have in England. It is a matter for immediate settlement, and it seems to me this is a very good opportunity, the Bill being practically non-contentious, of providing Ireland with a reform which a large number of people in the country want, and to which no reasonable man could take any exception

My only objection to the word "small-pox" there is that it is quite immaterial whether it is there or not. It can only raise delusive expectations if it is supposed that the presence of the word has any relation at all to the question of vaccination. I do not want to raise any delusive expectations in any part of Ireland. For that reason only I do not consent.

If the hon. Baronet moves this Amendment without an assurance that he will have an opportunity of moving the later Amendments on the Paper, he will really defeat the object I understand he has in view. Certainly, it is merely a work of superfluity and supererogation to add "small-pox" in this Clause. It is clearly already included by the reference to other epidemic diseases. If it is included in order to make assurance doubly sure, it will not achieve what he desires to secure, the same opportunity for honest objectors, but it will clearly enable the county councils to enforce those Regulations under the existing law of vaccination in Ireland which carry repeated penalties, and without an opportunity of the honest objector maintaining his position in regard to the operation being dangerous to the health of his child. I agree with you, Mr. Whitley, that the word proposed to be inserted is superfluous, and I believe my hon. Friend will not achieve the object he has in view by pressing this Amendment. I hope, however, that at some early opportunity and by some other means he will achieve the assimilation of the law in regard to vaccination in Ireland to that which already exists in. England and Scotland. The Royal Commission presided over by Lord Herschell, which sat from 1889 to 1893, and of which I think I am one of the few survivors, heard evidence from Ireland, from the Registrar-General and from represents- tives of the Local Government Board in Ireland, and the recommendations suggested by Lord Herschell, and carried by a majority, favoured giving relief to the honest objector in Ireland as well as in England and Scotland. It is an anomaly that the recommendation has not been carried out in regard to Ireland as in regard to England and Scotland.

I am not quite sure whether I understand the position. This Bill empowers the Local Government Board for Ireland to adopt administrative and preventive measures dealing with epidemic diseases, of which I understand smallpox is one. Does that mean that it will be possible for the Local Government Board to transfer to the county councils the power now exercised by the boards of guardians and the district council. At the present time the boards of guardians prosecute a man for refusing to have his child vaccinated, and he is punished in one way or another, sometimes by imprisonment. After he comes out of prison, having purged his offence, he is prosecuted a second time by the district council under the Public Health Act, and he is liable to repeated prosecution and repeated penalties, so that a grave injustice is inflicted on persons who, for conscientious motives, decline to submit their children to this obnoxious practice, which is so widely detested in Ireland, and has created a great deal of public feeling there, just as it is detested in England, where more than half the parents are now abstaining from having their children vaccinated. I do not want to discuss the general question, but I want to know whether the effect of this Bill, without this Amendment, would be to enable the Local Government Board in Ireland to transfer the duty of prosecuting in vaccination cases from the boards of guardians and the district councils to the county councils. That will reduce the probability of these repeated punishments being inflicted for one offence which go on now to the detriment of all respect of public law and the infliction of very severe injustice upon a large number of parents.

That really does not arise on this Amendment, which is a purely verbal one. An answer may be given perhaps on the Motion, That the Clause stand part of the Bill.

I have had the advantage of hearing upon this Amendment the weighty and delivered judgment of a great and eminent lawyer, enforced by the opinion of a very eminent medical man. I, like the hon. Member for Wexford (Sir T. Esmonde), am a mere layman, looked down upon by the pundits of law and medicine, but convinced that common-sense and a sense of justice is better than any learned legal and medical pronouncement on this subject. That is why I offer my services, for whatever they may be worth, to the hon. Member for Wexford, and I assure him that if he will have the courage to go into the Division Lobby, I will tell with him if necessary, or otherwise help all I can to support him. Even though he may be defeated, he will have a clear conscience and justice and right on his side in the course he has taken. The Chief Secretary for Ireland says it is unnecessary to put in the word "smallpox." Then why did he put in the specific word "cholera"?

Because it is part of the form of words which occurs in the Section, the operation of which is proposed to be extended. It is thought by the draughtsman to be good draughtsmanship to make sure to limit the operation of the proposed Amendment to the subject matter with: which it is intended to deal.

That only shows that the original Act has been peculiar, and I think badly drafted. My opinion of draughtsmanship may not be worth much, but it commends itself to me and to many other laymen, and I have put down a great many Amendments to a great many Bills, a great many of which have been accepted and still more rejected. You cannot get away from the fact that you do in this Clause single out one special disease, cholera. We want to single out for special treatment and for emphasis another disease, smallpox. This disease, fortunately, is very rare, and it seems to have decreased the more the practice of vaccination has decreased. I am one of those orthodox persons who believes in vaccination because I believe I have been vaccinated four times, and if anyone were to tell me that smallpox were about I should go and be vaccinated at once.

I beg to move the Amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friend (Mr. Boland)—in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "except in case of emergency."

I accept that.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I think there ought to be some explanation as to how this Clause will act. The Chairman indicated that this would be a suitable opportunity for the Chief Secretary to say how he is going to put this Clause into operation, and especially whether he can find the means, in connection with the way in which this Clause will be worked, of mitigating the injustice, imaginary or real—he may think it imaginary, but I think it very real—under which vaccination is forced upon an unwilling population.

I shall be in order now in raising another aspect of the question, which has nothing whatever to do with vaccination. It is proposed to give certain extra duties to the Irish county councils. I have served upon the Irish county councils ever since the Irish Local Government Act was passed, and I think we have quite enough work to do. Nearly every day some new thing is put upon our backs, and I object to the way in which gentlemen, whether members of Parliament or Government officials, think that it is advisable that the Irish county councils should have yet one more thing to attend to.

We have to look after tuberculosis, lunatics, and smallpox, and really some limit should be put to this. There is another reason why this Clause should not be adopted. County councils at present have absolutely no machinery to work a Clause of this kind, and it would make no difference to them unless machinery is established to put it into operation. I had proposed to omit Subsection (2), but I suppose that it is too late now to do so. I object to making any addition to the rates on the Irish farmers at present. If we are to do this the money should be provided by Parliament. In view of our increasing taxation it is not fair to ask us to accept new liabilities. Ever since the War began the Treasury has failed in its obligations as regards Irish county councils, district councils and boards of guardians in many ways. For instance, it does not pay the cost of maintenance of lunatics which it engaged to pay and it does not give the money which it engaged to give for medical charities. In many directions it is not paying money which this House ordered it to pay, and this is not the time when we should have this additional taxation. If the right hon. Gentleman will give some sort of assurance that the people of Ireland should receive the same treatment as the people of England with regard to vaccination, I will not oppose this Bill.

I want to know exactly how this Act will leave matters. Is it going to add to the number of prosecutions for non-vaccination? Is smallpox, or is it not, included in the other diseases? Will the county councils have to do with the administration of the Vaccination Acts or of any rules or regulations with regard to the treatment of smallpox? I have evidence from different parts of Ireland, more particularly the North of Ireland, of the existence of very strong feeling in consequence of prosecutions by two local authorities which are regarded as very grave injustice by depriving people on that side of the Channel of rights which they would have if they were living on this side of the Channel, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will avail of the opportunity of removing one of the grievances, which could be removed easily.

The short answer to the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down is that this Bill has nothing to do with vaccination. Its object is to assimilate the law in Ireland with the law in England in facilitating dealing with apprehended epidemic The Section of which an Amendment is introduced was passed when there was an epidemic of cholera, as Parliament thought that it should be applicable to any other visitation or epidemic, and general words were drawn which would include an epidemic of smallpox; but it was originally to enable the Local Government Board to declare local authorities the authorities which might put in force Regulations of an emergency character for the purpose of dealing with epidemics in this country. It was held that the words of the Section, though they were very general, did not include county councils which had not come into existence at the time the Section was passed. As a result of that decision a short Act was passed in this country to include county councils. The law in Ireland was left in the condition in which it was before. Urban district councils and rural district councils are within the purview of the Section, but the county councils are not. Obviously it is desirable in dealing with an apprehended epidemic to deal with it on some comprehensive plan which would provide security for the population affected. The sole object of the Bill is that in face of an apprehended epidemic of any disease county councils should be included within the powers now exercised by the Local Government Board.

Objection was taken to this Bill upon the Second Reading that it was peremptory against county councils, but it provides in the first Sub-section that, except in case of emergency, the Board shall not require the county council to execute and enforce such Regulations without the consent of the council. I consulted with the critics of the Bill those who usually act for my hon. Friend the Member for Wexford and with whom I am sure he would be satisfied, and I am a little surprised now, in face of what I understood was a settled matter, that the Bill has to be justified line by line. However, as it is a useful proposal, and in view of the Local Government Board for Ireland a necessary proposal, I must deal with it from that point of view. I have carried out what I undertook, which was that the Bill should not be in any form compulsory, and I propose to stand by what I have done. But with regard to the inquiries which have been addressed to me I must deal with them. First I am asked whether if this Bill passes I will undertake to introduce a Bill dealing with the vaccination question. I cannot give any such undertaking. Here is a Bill which is good in itself, which is designed to promote public health. The question whether vaccination in Ireland should or should not be compulsory is a highly contentious question, but my hon. Friend the Member for Wexford tells me that in particular areas in Ireland there is very strong feeling on the matter. I have every reason for knowing that that is so, for every means is taken to bring it to my attention, and to produce the maximum of discomfort on my part which can result from a state of popular dissatisfaction. But that is not the kind of consideration which ought to guide my course with regard to a Bill which is a sanitary measure and which I am advised is necessary. What I propose to do with regard to vaccination in Ireland is what I have previously told my hon. Friend. If I find in Ireland anything like a consensus of opinion that the law which exists in this country ought to be extended to Ireland, so that I may come to this House and say, "Here is a matter which is not one of serious contention in Ireland," I would be ready to make a proposal on the subject. At this moment I am not satisfied that any opinion of that kind is settled in Ireland. I know that inquiries have been made about the matter, and that in some counties there is a strong resistance to, vaccination, but, on the whole, in the country there is not general opposition. Those who usually advise bodies of people in Ireland about their social affairs in matters of this kind have always said, down to the present tune, that, on the whole, the protection of vaccination is one which the people should adopt for their own sakes. It may well be that opinion in Ireland has since changed, and if the hon. Baronet will satisfy me that a change has occurred in the mind of the people on this question I am as ready as any man need be to deal with that change; but, until I am satisfied of that, I cannot undertake to fetter my action on a question of general policy, still less to make proposals in regard to vaccination without being sure of my ground. I do not want, at any rate, to disturb the public peace of Ireland any more than it is at present disturbed, and until I am reasonably satisfied that there is a change of view, I cannot undertake anything without being shown that there is something like a general consensus of opinion on the part of all those concerned.

Has the right hon. Gentleman taken any steps whatever to ascertain whether there is any spontaneous desire for compulsion?

I do not like to be examined as to whether action is spontaneous or otherwise. I know something of the centres of agitation, and of how agitation is stimulated. If the hon. Member spent twelve months in Ireland, or in Irish administration, he would soon find that there is no man in the world more capable of protesting vehemently against any project to which he objects, than the Irishman, and in regard to this question of vaccination, down to the present time, so far as Ireland is concerned, there has been no general agitation. It may be that some local agitators are not satisfied, but I must know more about the general feeling of the country before I can undertake anything on the subject.

So far as experience of local affairs is concerned, I may say that I have been concerned in Irish local affairs ever since I attained manhood. I have been re-elected, over and over again, on various local authorities, and have been practically engaged in nothing else but local affairs. I do know something about them, and if gentlemen who govern my country had occasionally done me the honour to consult me in various local matters in Ireland, perhaps their efforts would have turned out to be easier than they have proved. None of the rulers of my country have been in the habit of consulting me about anything, and I have no responsibility for whatever may happen. It is no part of my business to satisfy the right hon. Gentleman as to the widespread feeling against vaccination in Ireland. I am really concerned for my own district, and I am giving my honest views to the right hon. Gentleman. I, however, wash my hands of the whole business. In my own Division there are 1,500 prosecutions, and in the Division next to mine nearly 2,000 people are to be prosecuted. The Local Government Board have insisted upon the local guardians carrying out the prosecutions, and the local guardians have declined to do so. I have endeavoured to make peace. I have no interest one way or the other except that I know the people and that they have a grievance in connection with vaccination. I have myself said over and over again that I think it is a wise thing. At the same time, I do not think it is the proper thing nowadays to make people vaccinate their children when many of them object. I do not care two straws whether it is done or it is not, but I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman has got no security against the spreading of disease in Ireland because I know the administration of Ireland, and know that the councils have no machinery, no sanitary officers, nobody whatever to administer a measure of this kind. But if the right hon. Gentleman wants it, then by all means let him have it, but it will not do the least good in any part of the country. For my part, I think I have done my share in this matter, and I will have nothing more to say to it.

I would point out that the Report of Lord Herschell's Commission investigated the whole of the subject, both with regard to Ireland and Great Britain.

I have pointed out that what I want is an expression of deliberate opinion without any wild and harebrained agitation. A deliberate opinion is what we want.

Would the right hon. Gentleman welcome an expression of opinion by the local authorities?

I must intervene again, though I thought I had said the last word I had to say on this Bill. I would call attention to the object lesson we have just had of the way in which Ireland is governed. We have listened to a very earnest, practical, and dignified protest from the hon. Member (Sir T. Esmonde), who all his life has been engaged in local administration; yet we find the Chief Secretary absolutely disregardful of the opinion of representative men and representative bodies like those of which my right hon. Friend is entitled to speak. What did we find at the beginning of this discussion? We found that the two parties—the agricultural men and the representatives of Dublin Castle—were uniting in work which both wanted to do for the good of the health of Ireland, and now we have this holding of a non possumus and unsympathetic attitude on the part of the right hon. Gentleman; and my hon. Friend behind says that he washes his hands of the whole thing, and that it will do no good. Then we are told that the local authorities are to be instructed to carry out prosecutions by the thousands against men who have elected the members of those local bodies. You cannot govern a country in that way. I have only one observation to make, and that is I wonder that Sinn Fein is not growing much more rapidly.

I am very glad that the Chief Secretary has acted as he has with regard to the provision in respect of conscientious objectors. Ireland is a country where it would be more dangerous than in any other to have this possibility of objecting to vaccination against smallpox.

The hon. and learned Member has not been in the Committee, and his remarks are quite outside the scope of the present Motion, which is "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause 2 ( Short Title and Citation ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed.

Supply

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

COLONIAL OFFICE (Class 2)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £35,750, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of His Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, including a Grant in Aid of certain Expenses connected with Emigration."— [NOTE: £24,000 has been voted on account.]

It is somewhat unusual to put down a Vote in this way and I think we ought to have an explanation as to why it is so put down. Perhaps the hon. Member for Bury, who knows everything, will enlighten us. I will not keep him very long if he wishes to rise and inform the Committee how the Government carries on their business and then very likely they will put him into the Government shortly.

This is not the first time I have had to call the hon. Member to order for irrelevance. Will he be good enough to attend to the matter before the Committee?

I apologise to you and to the Committee for being led away by an interjection. I hope I am in order in calling attention to the unusual practice of putting down the Colonial Vote at the end of business. I understand we have just as much right to discuss the Vote as if this were an allotted day. I do not intend to do so, but I hope this will not be the practice to put down Votes of this importance in this way. There may be special reasons to justify it and, if so, we should be told.

The reason for this procedure was explained by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House this afternoon in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Devizes. These three Votes, each of them being Votes that arouse some interest among Members of the Committee, were put down in this form solely and entirely for the convenience of the Committee, and if the Committee do not think our procedure convenient we have no desire at all to press it. By putting down these three Votes to-night we are able to get them into the Report stage and first Orders on the Paper on the last day of Supply, which means that we shall be able to enter on the discussion of them without having to wait for the reading out of the very many Votes which come that day—a process which takes in normal years about an hour and wastes that much time. I think when the Committee realises the reason for this procedure they will appreciate the motive and allow us to carry them through.

I am very much obliged to my hon. Friend for his explanation. Can he say in what order they will be returned?

Army Estimates, 1917–18

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Pay, etc., of the Medical Establishment, and of Medicines, etc., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918."

Ministry of National Service

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of National Service."

I should like an explanation of this Vote. I failed to obtain any details in the Vote Office.

If the Committee do not want to take this Vote now, we will move to report Progress at once.

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

May I appeal to the Noble Lord not to persist with the Motion to report Progress? This Vote has been asked for from this Bench half-a-dozen times during this Session, and this is the first time it has been put down. I would, therefore, appeal to him not to persist with his proposal. There is great anxiety all over the House to have this Vote discussed.

I hope that the Noble Lord will not take this course, because one Member of the House wishes to ask for some information. There are any number of us who desire to discuss this question of National Service. I myself asked the Leader of the House, and he promised me that it would be put down before the Adjournment. I was very glad when the Noble Lord told me personally that this Vote was to be put down, and I hope he is not going to go back on that.

I only moved it as a protest against the hon. Member delaying business.

Motion to report Progress, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

I wish to explain to the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Lord E. Talbot) and to the House that I had no desire whatever to stop the Vote just now. I simply asked about the Paper. We are always furnished in the Vote Office with a Paper setting out the Estimates as they would be proposed, with details. I have the other Estimates for the Civil Service, Class 2, which was done, and the Army Estimates here, but I cannot find or obtain in the Vote Office any Paper relating to the Ministry of National Service: and merely because I wished to ask that before the Report stage of this Vote some such Paper should be available I am treated in the peculiar way in which I was treated just now. I think there seemed to be a misunderstanding on the part of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary, and I wish to say that I had no intention to delay business.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Four minutes before Ten o'clock.