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Commons Chamber

Volume 97: debated on Thursday 9 August 1917

House of Commons

Thursday, August 9, 1917

Private Business

Blackpool Improvement Bill,

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Glasgow Boundaries Act (1912) Amendment Order Confirmation Bill (by Order),

Consideration deferred till Tuesday next, at a Quarter-past Eight of the clock.

Ministry of Food

Copies presented of Papers relating to Local Food Control Committees and a Sugar Distribution Scheme [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889 (Ordinance)

Copy presented of University Court Ordinance, No. 61 (St. Andrew's, No. 11) (Regulations for Degrees in Arts, Philosophy, and Letters), Supplementary to Ordinance, No 29 (St. Andrew's, No. 4) [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 131.]

Intermediate Education (Ireland)

Copy presented of Rule amending Rule 32 (D) of the Rules for 1018, made under the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Acts [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Rule prescribing alternative works in the Junior and Middle Grades on the programme for English for 1918, made under the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Acts [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Foreign Office (Communications)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the number of times within the last four years that there has been a violation of the constitutional practice by which the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs deals with all communications by letter or telegraph directed from representatives of foreign countries to this country in cases where these communications are of a nature to affect the international policy of this country?

So far as I know, there has been no such violation.

asked whether there is any record in the Foreign Office of any correspondence in the days preceding the War between the King on the one hand and the Kaiser or Prince Henry of Prussia on the other; and, if so, whether it will be submitted to the consideration of Parliament?

I would refer the hon. Member to page 538 of Command Paper 7,860, of 1915.

As I have not all those papers at my finger-ends for the moment, may I ask if in these matters the King has a foreign policy of his own, and if he has ever pursued that foreign policy without direct reference to the Foreign Office?

Russian Council of Workmen's and Soldiers' Delegates

asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the attacks in the "Morning Post" newspaper upon the Russian Council of Workmen's and Soldiers' Delegates and upon the representatives of that body who have recently been in this country, and will shortly return, in which the impression is sought to be conveyed that they are responsible for the retreat of the Russian Armies in the East; and, in view of the embarrassment such attacks are calculated to cause to the Russian Government, will he take action to prohibit the foreign circulation of the "Morning Post," as in the case of the "Nation"?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; to the second in the negative.

Would the right hon. Gentleman at least inform the Provisional Government that the leader writer of this paper is himself a man of military age, that the paper is owned by an old lady, and they are not belligerents themselves?

Does the Government not think it possible to allow the foreign circulation of the "Nation," so that it may be an antidote to this mischievous stuff?

Is the reason why no notice is being taken that this paper is beneath contempt?

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reason why the Censor has allowed these violent attacks to be made on the Russian Government?

I have only had my attention called to one article, and it did not appear to me to contain any attack on the Russian Government.

Is it not a fact that the loyalty of this paper and its determination to pursue the War to a conclusive peace is a very good example to other papers?

Food Supplies

Tillage

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he will give the Defence of the Realm Regulation which empowers a local authority to enter on the lands of an individual and divide them in permanent lettings for the purpose of tillage?

No Regulation has been made under the Defence of the Realm Act empowering a local authority to act in the manner mentioned in the question.

Can the local authority take over any lands for the purposes of tillage?

asked the Chief Secretary whether he will state the circumstances under which a parcel of land on the sea coast at Doon West, Bally-bunion, county Kerry, the property of Richard Huggard, has been seized by the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) and divided by the local authority by lot among some twenty-five of their supporters; whether this land, which is of poor tillage value, possesses a considerable building value owing to its position overlooking the sea, and he is aware that the owner had made plans to develop it for this purpose; whether he is aware that the owner endeavoured to comply with the Department's order to till the land, but that the horses and men he sent were boycotted and compelled to withdraw by the other parties, who were anxious to get the land for themselves; and will he now state the exact terms on which the land has been seized and divided up by the local authority, and what prospect has the owner of ultimately recovering possession of his property?

The Listowel Rural District Council reported to the Department of Agriculture that the land referred to had been derelict for years owing to a question of title, and asked to be empowered to arrange for its cultivation under the Defence of the Realm Regulations. The Department received a report from one of their inspectors that the land was suitable for cultivation, and that he was satisfied from local inquiries the land was derelict and was used as commonage. As a result of further inquiries, however, Mr. William Huggard, of the Estate Office, Tralee. claimed that the land was not commonage; that Mr. Richard Huggard, of 5, Rostrevor Terrace, Rathgar, was the person liable to be rated for Poor Rate; and that arrangements for the cultivation of the land were being made. Before taking action the Department wrote to Mr. Huggard asking for an assurance that the provisions of the Tillage Regulations would be complied with, and this assurance was given. Up to the 28th March no portion of the land had been placed under cultivation, and in the meantime the Listowel Rural District Council claimed that Mr. William Huggard had completely ignored liability for the Poor Rate for this land in the past.

Mr. Huggard sent a man and horses to plough the land, but the ploughman returned without doing any work as it appeared he could not get accommodation in Ballybunion. The Department considered that it was a case in which they should exercise their powers under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and the Listowel Rural District Council were formally delegated to arrange for the cultivation of the land in con-acre for the current season. I am told the site is suitable for building purposes, but no houses have been erected there during the past twenty years, and land suitable for building is not as such exempted from the provisions of the Regulations as regards tillage.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Listowel Rural District Council are Sinn Feiners to a man?

I have not the least idea, but I know that in this case they took care to see that the tillage instructions were carried out.

Cattle Foodstuffs (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary if he will state the arrangements, if any, that have been taken to secure the coming winter's supply of milk and coal for the Irish people; if he will state the Government's proposals for cattle-feeding; and if he is aware that the shortage of milk is due to the Government's restrictions on cattle foodstuffs?

The question of the production and distribution of milk in the United Kingdom is under consideration of a Committee appointed by the Food Controller, and steps are being taken by the Coal Controller as regards the supply of winter coal for the poor. Owing to the restrictions on the manufacture of beer and spirits there has been a reduction in the quantity of grains available for the feeding of cattle, and the question of millers' offal suitable for the feeding of dairy cows is at present engaging the attention of the authorities concerned, with whom the Department of Agriculture are in communication with a view to securing an adequate supply for the purpose.

Java Tea

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, while 2,500,000 lbs. of Java tea have already been imported into Canada between 1st January and 30th June, 1917, very heavy shipments are expected in the current half-year; and whether, in view of this fact, he will reconsider his decision not to ask the Canadian Government to consider the propriety of forbidding the import of Java tea, as the Australian Government has done, in order that the British Empire may exhibit a commercial as well as a military solidarity of front during the present crisis?

I have no later figures than 31st March, and I am not able to say what shipments are in prospect. I do not think that any useful purpose would be served by approaching the Canadian Government on the subject.

Meat

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he is aware of the dissatisfaction in Ireland caused by the prices fixed for cattle for the Army; if the scale of prices fixed will cause a meat famine next spring; if the prices are fixed without any regard to the Irish trade; and if he will appoint a Committee of Experts to go into this matter and revise the scale?

Lord Rhondda regrets that there should be any dissatisfaction expressed in Ireland with regard to the prices fixed for cattle for the Army, which were arranged after consultation with the Irish Department of Agriculture. He is not of opinion that the prices as fixed will cause a meat famine next spring, and, as at present advised, is unable to accept the suggestion that a Committee of Experts should be appointed for the purpose indicated by the hon. Member.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that at the price of 60s. per cwt. fixed for January it is not possible to grow meat except at a loss?

All the relevant facts in the possession of the Department were borne in mind in fixing the scale.

Potatoes

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what steps he proposes to take to instruct the allotment holders as to the best means of storing potatoes?

The Food Production Department of the Board of Agriculture has prepared and is about to issue a leaflet advising small growers as to the best means to be adopted for conserving their potato stocks.

Flour

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether it is proposed to convert any surplus potato crop into potato flour?

The Food Production Department of the Board of Agriculture are investigating the question as to whether any and, if any, what quantity of the crop can be utilised in the form of potato flour. They are further engaged in testing methods of conserving any surplus in dried form. It is impossible to come to any decision on the matter until it is known how great the supply of potatoes will be.

If they are going to manufacture potato flour, will my hon. Friend see that they get proper machinery as soon as possible, because it is rather difficult to get?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food how many applications for permission to have supplies of white flour have been received and how many permits have been granted; and if the doctors' certificates give any indication of the class of persons who are making these applications and the part of the country from which they come?

Down to the 31st July 1,238 applications for permission to have supplies of white flour were received, and 764 permits were granted. The medical certificate, which in all cases is required and should be specific, invariably states the district in which the applicant resides; it is usually accompanied by a covering letter, from which an indication of the financial circumstances of the applicant can be inferred.

Is it possible for these certificates or the letters which accompany them to ascertain whether these people are in a position of life to purchase healthy substitutes on which they can live?

The hon. Member may observe from the figures I have given that a mere formal application is not sufficient to secure white flour, and many claims are rejected.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what has been done with the supplies of white flour discovered in the East End of London; have they been confiscated and the flour used to improve the grade of the standard flour; and have the sellers of the white flour been prosecuted?

Steps are being taken to secure the observance in the East End of London of the Regulation that white flour may only be used as an admixture of 20 per cent. with Government Regulation flour.

It is not illegal to possess large stocks, but the law requires the admixture which I have stated.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if the quality of the standard Government flour will be lowered in proportion to the number of permits issued for the supply of white flour; and whether he is aware that dissatisfaction may be expected to arise when the effect of the granting of these permits is appreciated?

It is obvious that the granting of permits for the supply of white flour to invalids on any considerable scale would lower the proportion available for the remainder of the population. Every endeavour is, therefore made to limit the number of grants and to reduce the period for which they are allowed. Care is, however, taken to protect invalids, particularly those whose financial circumstances make it difficult for them to procure invalid foods as substitutes for white flour.

Dried Fruit

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether it is the intention of his Department to still further reduce the importation of dried fruit such as raisins and muscatels; whether supplies have already been reduced by 70 per cent. on importations from Spain; and whether, in respect of the fruit still imported, any effort will be made to reduce a freightage of 19s. per case on oranges from Spain to London as compared with 1s. per case before the War?

The importation of dried fruit necessarily depends on the amount of tonnage available, but it is not in contemplation further to restrict the importation of raisins and muscatels. The suggestion made in the last part of the question will be borne in mind.

Preserved Fruit

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether any arrangements have been made by the Department for the supply of bottles for preserving fruit without sugar: and, if so, what number of bottles has been actually delivered in Scotland under the arrangement?

I am informed that the Board of Agriculture for Scotland have made arrangements with the Ministry of Munitions for the supply of these bottles, and that 37,000 have been delivered in Scotland up to date.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to expedite the delivery of bottles for the preservation of fruit in Scotland?

Vegetables

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the quantity of vegetable foodstuffs now being grown by small holders and small farmers which cannot be consumed by the growers or in the immediate neighbourhood, and for the marketing of which there are no practicable facilities, he will arrange with local committees for the collection of such surplus and other farm and garden products, and for their carriage by motor or other means of conveyance for marketing or distribution?

I am not aware that small growers are experiencing unusual difficulty in marketing their foodstuffs, or that there-is any reason to set up special distributing machinery for this purpose. The point raised by the hon. Member will, however, be borne in mind.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are still rings which rob both the producer and the consumer?

I think it may be said that the more we go into the question of food control the more we discover that there are obstacles of that kind.

Many announcements have sought to deal with this question, but an adequate reply cannot be furnished through the medium of a Parliamentary answer.

Fish (Gold Storage)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, owing to Regulations or customs affecting the wholesale sale of fish, quantities of fish are allowed to become unfit for human consumption; whether he will endeavour to come to some arrangement by which such waste shall be avoided in future; whether full advantage is taken of existing cold storage capacity, and, if not, will he take such powers as may be necessary by which existing cold storage may be used to its full capacity; and, if possible, will he take means to cause an increase in the extent of such means of preserving perishable foodstuffs?

I am not aware of any Regulations or customs of the character indicated in the question. Full advantage appears to be taken of existing cold storage, and every effort will be made to increase the accommodation available.

Raspbereies

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (1) what rate of agent's commission per ton is proposed to be paid to Mr. T. H. Hodge in respect of the Scottish crop of raspberries in so far as they are not delivered through associations; what is the estimated amount of the crop grown by Mr. Hodge: whether he will be entitled to any and, if so. what agent's commission per ton on his own crop in addition to the price of £35 per ton: (2) what is the maximum period over which Mr. T. H. Hodge's work as agent for the Scottish raspberry crop will extend; what is the probable number of persons that he will have to employ in that agency work; what is the amount that will probably have to be expended on it; and what is the estimated aggregate amount of the commission that will be paid to him?

I have already informed the hon. Member that the commission payable to Mr. Hodge in respect of the Scottish crop of raspberries will in no case exceed the authorised rate of £l per ton. I have written to ask Mr. Hodge what estimate he forms of his own crop and for the various details of his agency work which the hon. Member desires to know, and I will forward the information so soon as I receive it. Mr. Hodge will receive agent's commission at such rate as may be agreed upon in respect of his own crop. But until the total amount of the whole crop has been ascertained no estimate of any value can be formed as to the aggregate commission payable.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether Mr. Hodge will receive commission in respect of his own crop at the same rate as in respect of the crop which does not come from associations?

My answer implies that it may not be at the same rate, because the amount will have to be the subject of agreement.

Was the commission fixed without any estimate being made by the Department of the amount payable?

Estimates have had to be made as the Department has proceeded to deal with the question.

Beer Supplies

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a communication from the secretary of the Dock, Wharf, Riverside, and General Workers' Union urging upon his consideration the danger of cutting short the working man's beer, and of selling other than sound, wholesome liquor; and, if so, what answer has been, or will be, given to such communication?

I am informed that the communication referred to was received and, having been acknowledged, was forwarded to the Food Controller for his consideration.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is an unfortunate impression that the Government have given undue consideraion towards teetotal enthusiasts?

I have seen evidence of an impression that the Government gives too much consideration to the other side.

Corn and Cattle Prices

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he will give an opportunity to discuss the recent Orders of the Food Ministry relative to the prices of corn and cattle?

I cannot add anything to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for the Edgbaston Division of Birmingham yesterday.

This question is of very great importance, and I will raise it on the Adjournment to-night.

Lord Rhondda's Proposals

( by Private Notice )asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the political character of the Food Controller's proposal, giving large powers of fixing prices and distributing commodities to local authorities, he does not think that such far-reaching changes should not be made by Order under the Defence of the Realm Acts, and whether he will not reconsider his decision declining to give an opportunity of discussion to the House, and, in order that this may be done, postpone some of the earlier dates suggested in the Order, so that all necessary papers may be laid, and the whole matter considered when the House resumes for the Autumn sittings?

It is quite impossible for me to say anything more than I said yesterday in answer to a similar question.

( ( later ): On account of the answer I have received I desire to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, "The proposal of the Gov- eminent to empower local authorities to undertake large duties in connection with the distribution of commodities and the fixing of prices, without giving this House any opportunity of considering the proposal."

The pleasure of the House not having been signified, Mr. SPEAKER called on those Members who supported the Motion to rise in their places, and, less than forty but more than ten Members having accordingly risen—

In view of the extreme importance of this question, I beg leave to move the Adjournment of the House, and to carry the Motion to a Division.

What about the workers' ninepenny loaf?

Question, "That leave be given to move 'That this House do now adjourn,'" put, and negatived.

Questions

Old Age Pensions

asked the Chief Secretary if he will have inquiries made into the refusal to grant the old age pension to Mr. J. M. Barclay, 4, Fitzwilliam Terrace. Rathmines, Dublin; if he will say whether living with his son-in-law in decent, comfortable surroundings is sufficient reason to debar him from a right which he is entitled to; and if he will say whether the fact of being provided with the necessaries of life by friends or relations debars a person aged seventy with no income from receiving the pension?

The case of Mr. J. M Barclay has not been before the Local Government Board, who have no functions in the matter unless an appeal is made to them within the prescribed period. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to Section 2 (1) ( d ) of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1911, which provides that the yearly value of any benefit or privilege enjoyed by a person is to be reckoned as part of such person's means.

asked the Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the additional allowances recently granted to old age pensioners are permanent or temporary in character and limited to the period of the War; and what is the recent extension of the old age pension scheme which, together with the additional allowances, brings up the total extra cost to 5½ to 6 millions a year?

The additional allowances are temporary in character and limited to the period of the War. The recent extension of the scheme under which they are granted provides that as from the 10th instant, inclusive, all old age pensioners who are entitled under the Old Age Pensions Acts to pensions, whether at the 5s. or lower rate, will receive the additional 2s. 6d. a week; whereas under the original scheme only some 62 per cent. of pensioners received additional allowances. It is this extension of the scheme which has raised the estimated cost of the additional allowances to a total amount of between 5½ and 6 millions a year.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think this is about the best expenditure of money the nation has indulged in during the War?

Cigarette Pictures

asked the Chief Secretary (1) whether he is aware that a new industry was started in Dublin after the outbreak of war to replace a German monopoly which consisted in printing, on satin, pictures illustrative of various designs such as regimental badges; whether he is aware that instructions have now been given to cigarette manufacturers to cease issuing those satin-printed pictures; whether, seeing that the output of the Dublin firm has increased from £2,000 in 1914 to £26,000 in the course of the last six months, and that the firm has large orders in hand, steps will be taken to prevent the closing down of an industry destined effectually to replace a German monopoly; (2) whether his attention has been called to the action of the Paper Commission in prohibiting the issue of pictures enclosed in packages of cigarettes; whether he is aware that the Dublin firm of James Walker, Limited, has, since the outbreak of war, been able to supply the satin-printed pictures for this purpose formerly made in Germany; and whether directions will be given to the effect that the prohibition of satin-printed pictures is not within the scope of the powers of the Paper Commission, and that an Irish industry which gives employment to a number of hands will not be closed down as a consequence of this new Order?

No such prohibition has been imposed, but I understand that in view of the grave shortage of paper for essential purposes a provisional agreement has been come to between the Royal Commission on Paper and the tobacco manufacturers for the discontinuance in present circumstances of the practice of enclosing pictures in packets of cigarettes. I understand, however, that one firm which uses the pictures referred to in the questions has raised objection to the arrangement being applied to pictures of this description, and that these representations are now under the consideration of the Paper Commission.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how it is that when an application was made by the managing director personally on the 30th of July by letter to the Paper Commission no answer of any kind was given?

I was not aware of that particular fact, but I do know, and I have been given an assurance, that the matter is now under the consideration of the Paper Commission.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us what the Paper Commission has got to do with satin, and what right have they to interfere at all?

It was a general prohibition or consideration of a prohibition against the enclosure of pictures in cigarette packets.

What right have the Commission to interfere in a matter which has nothing to do with paper? Are they not going beyond their terms of reference?

It is a question which refers to a class of printing and the Commission concluded that it came under their purview. At any rate the matter is under consideration.

Can we have an assurance that nothing further will be done in this matter until it has been thoroughly and carefully considered?

I will give an assurance that I will do my best to expedite the consideration of this matter.

Will the Law Officers of the Crown be consulted as to whether there is any legal right to interfere in this matter?

Irish Convention

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Government have decided to withdraw their restrictions on the Press attending the Convention?

Artisans' Houses (Belfast)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if there is a shortage of artisans' houses in Belfast; that the output of the shipyards and munition works in the city is consequently restricted; that if suitable additional dwellings could be provided several thousands more workers could be employed; if the labour and building materials requisite for the erection of these is available in Belfast; and if he is prepared to take any steps to remedy this state of things?

Rhodesia (Reserves)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a Native Affairs Commission, appointed by Sir William Milton in Rhodesia as recently as 1910, reported in 1911 that there was a conflict of evidence upon the adequacy of reserves; that the Surveyor-General and others held the view that they were excessive, whereas the testimony of the Native Department officials is substantially against him; that they point out that in certain reserves a large portion of the soil is poor, that water is deficient, that certain localities are wholly unsuitable for human occupation, and that, as the assignment has been formally effected by the company and approved by the administration, it is questionable whether it can be materially varied as regards extent; and whether His Majesty's Government will take into full consideration the Report of this Commission on account of the value of the evidence of the Native Affairs Department?

A Committee of Inquiry appointed by the Administrator of Southern Rhodesia reported in 1911 to the effect indicated; but they also pointed out that the areas of many of the reserves proved on survey to be vastly greater than had been estimated by the officials of the Native Department. The High Commissioner's Commission, which reported recently, took evidence from many officials of the Native Department and gave full weight to their views. The Report, as already promised, will be published shortly.

Military Service

Post Office Rifles

asked the Postmaster-General whether men who have served with the Post Office Rifles and returned home wounded or in a lower medical category have been transferred to the Postal Section of the Royal Engineers; whether they perform similar work to the Royal Engineers without special allowance and are they forced to perform duties every Sunday; and if these men are entitled to draw ordinary Infantrymen's pay and to be treated as members of the Infantry and allowed their Sundays after church parade?

These men are attached, while unfit for service abroad, to the Royal Engineers Postal Section. They are eligible while so attached to working pay at the game rate as Engineer pay in addition to their Infantry pay. Their conditions of work are those applicable to the Royal Engineers to whom they are attached.

Russian Subjects in United Kingdom

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether Mr. A. Bezalel is to be deported; if so, whether this deportation is the result of his agitation to secure facilities for the return to Russia of the women and children whose husbands are to be con-scribed under the Convention; whether the Government's concession that the Convention should lie upon the Table for thirty days was granted in order that the practical application of the Convention should be discussed; whether Mr. Bezalel was committing any illegality in voicing the opinions of those Russians affected; and whether a stay of execution will be granted pending further inquiries into his case?

Bezalel was arrested with a view to deportation on the ground that he was conspiring to defeat the operation of the Military Service Acts as regards certain Russian subjects in London. Since his arrest these Russian subjects have taken a more reasonable view of their obligations and Bezalel has applied to be released on certain undertakings as to his future conduct. I am considering this application, and he will not be sent out of the country pending my decision.

asked the Home Secretary whether he receives reports of meetings and speeches denouncing the imposal of military service or deportation to the country of birth on the alien population of East London; is he aware of the nature of these speeches and of the feeling they create among the non-pacifist and British-born population; and are means being taken to warn those whom it concerns that the Government intend to rigorously enforce the Regulations that have been enacted as to military service or immediate deportation for non-British subjects?

I am aware that there has been a certain amount of agitation of the nature described in the question, but it is incorrect to speak of deportation in this connection. Russian subjects in the United Kingdom are at liberty either to return to their own country for service, on making proper application within the time allowed, or to remain in this country and fulfil their military obligations in the British Forces. These obligations will be strictly enforced.

Suppose an alien goes back to Russia and does not serve in the Army there, will he be allowed back to this country?

Lunatic Asylums (Discharges)

asked the Home Secretary whether any man who has been in the Army and is now detained in a lunatic asylum can be discharged by direction of his next-of-kin, under Section 72 of the Lunacy Act, 1890, provided that the manager of the institution does not give a barring certificate in terms of Section 74?

The answer is in the affirmative as regards all men classified as Service patients.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether a man who has been drafted from the Army to a lunatic asylum re-enters the status of a civilian, according to the King's Regulations, at the expiration of a month passed in the asylum, and is no longer under military control; and whether, in accordance with the same Regulations, his friends can claim him on giving the undertaking required by Section 79 of the Lunacy Act, provided that the superintendent of the asylum does not certify under Section 74 that the man is dangerous and unfit to be at large?

A soldier who has been one month in a civil lunatic asylum, if not previously discharged from the Army, is brought forward for discharge. Military control, of course, ceases with his discharge. In regard to the last part of the question I must refer the hon. Member to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Isle of Man

asked the Home Secretary whether the provisions of the Military Service Acts apply equally to the Isle of Man as to the rest of the United Kingdom; and whether provisions, regulations and rules affecting conscientious objectors are of equal application in the island as in other parts of Great Britain?

Under the powers of the Isle of Man (War Legislation) Act, 1914, the Military Service Acts and the Regulations made under them have been extended to the Isle of Man, subject to the necessary adaptations. Conscientious objectors in the Isle of Man are in the same position as in the United Kingdom.

Conscientious Objectors

asked the Home Secretary whether S. F. Fowler, of Kingston, a conscientious objector undergoing a sentence of two years' imprisonment in Wormwood Scrubs, is in a weak state of health, owing to continued solitary confinement and insufficient food: whether Fowler has made application to undertake work under the Home Office Committee: and whether steps can be taken to facilitate his being given such work?

This man has been before the Central Tribunal, who reported that he could not be said to have any real conscientious objection to military service. The Committee on Employment of Conscientious Objectors are therefore unable to offer him employment. He is at present confined in Wandsworth Prison. The Prison Commissioners are making inquiry as to his health, and I will inform the hon. Member of the result of their inquiries.

asked the Home Secretary if James E. Devlin, a conscientious objector now in prison at Gosport, has been on bread and water for three months; if he is in solitary confinement; if he is allowed only half an hour's exercise a week; if so, will he say for what reason is this treatment being inflicted; and will a report on Devlin's physical condition be immediately called for?

The Prison Commissioners inform me that this man is not in their custody. There is a military prison at Gosport, and if this man is confined there, the hon. Member should address his question to the War Office.

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if Private Frank James Winham, No. 29,617, 3rd Hampshire Regiment, has recently been court-martialled as a conscientious objector at Cambridge Barracks, Portsmouth, and if a sentence of eighteen months' detention at a detention barracks has been promulgated; and, if so, why this man has been sentenced to detention and not to confinement in a civil prison in accordance with Army Council Instructions?

I have no information as to the first and second parts of the question, but I will make inquiries. As regards the last part, I think my hon. Friend is aware that courts-martial have the power to award detention.

asked if correspondence has been received from the Eccles labour party about an incident in connection with the imprisonment of Mr. J. H. Hudson, a conscientious objector released from Wandsworth Prison on the 17th March last; and, if so, why the War Office does not give its attention to the matters complained of?

I am afraid that I am not able to identify this incident without further particulars, but if my hon. Friend will give me Hudson's regiment and number and any other details be may have, I will have inquiry made.

Coal Miners

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if, in the case of North of England miners, owing to pits working short time, seeking to supplement their income by harvesting or other work at the docks, etc., yet by arrangement holding themselves free for immediate return to the mines when needed, they will still be regarded as on work of national importance; and, if so, will he arrange with the military authorities that no interference takes place as has happened in several instances?

The exemption of miners is arranged for by the Home Office acting through the colliery recruiting Courts. The settlement of the terms of their exemption is not therefore a matter in which the War Office is directly concerned administratively. If their exemption is expressly conditional upon the men being actively engaged in coal-mining, it would obviously lapse if the men ceased to be engaged in coal-mining and became engaged in the occupation, for example, of shipbuilding. This would not necessarily preclude them from being exempted as shipbuilders, but it would be obviously improper to exempt such men as coal miners.

Would that apply to men who are unemployed in the mines for two or three days in the week, and who engage in temporary work to make up the deficiency in wages owing to want of transit in the district in which they work?

Labour Companies

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) whether he is aware that the men serving in the 148th Labour Company, British Expeditionary Force, are paid so irregularly that they are frequently compelled to send home for money in order to enable then: to make sundry necessary purchases; that during a recent period of six weeks nothing but stew was supplied for dinner; and that more often than not neither milk nor sugar is supplied with the tea; and, if so, whether he will take any action to improve such a state of affairs, which is causing dissatisfaction among the men; (2) whether he is aware that the men of the 381st Home Service Labour Company work frequently on Sundays and receive no working pay for such work, the pay having been stopped since the beginning of this year; whether he is aware that the rations are poor in quality and quantity; and, having regard to the dissatisfaction thus caused, will steps be taken to remedy this grievance?

I have no information as to the matters mentioned by my hon. Friend in this and the next question, but I will inquire and communicate with him as soon as possible.

Royal Dublin Fusiliers (Transfer)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state the result of his inquiries into the conscripting of Private Thomas Lynam, No. 20850 3rd Royal Dublin Fusiliers, transferred from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders; if he is aware that this man, who was temporarily resident in Great Britain engaged on work of national importance, was conscripted on 18th May in Glasgow, although he had been three times rejected, twice in Glasgow and once in Dublin, and that as a result of being rejected in Dublin he proceeded to Glasgow to obtain employment; if he is aware that since this man's transfer to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers his father has been informed by the War Office by a letter, dated 30th July, that Lynam had deserted, and on the father proceeding to Cork to investigate the War Office letter he was informed that there was no truth in the statement that his son had deserted; and if he will say whether, having regard to the mistakes made in this case, he will now order Lynam's discharge?

From inquiries made since the hon. Member's previous question, to which I replied on the 29th June last, it appears that Lynam, who was transferred at his own request from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders to the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, was reported to have deserted en route to join the latter regiment. This report was erroneous, and was due to his having been confused with another man—named Lynagh—who had deserted from that regiment. With reference to the statement that Lynam was medically rejected twice in Glasgow and once in Dublin, he has been asked to produce documents with regard to his exami- nation in Dublin, but has not done so. He was not rejected on either of the occasions on which he was examined in Glasgow. As I stated in my previous answer, although Lynam reported at the recruiting office in Glasgow three times, he did not on any of these occasions claim to be excepted from military service as an Irishman who was not ordinarily resident in Great Britain or state that he had been formerly rejected in Dublin. The officer commanding the battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders to which Lynam was originally posted was instructed to inquire whether he desired to make any complaint as to his position, and that officer has reported that on the matter being brought before Lynam he stated that he did not wish to make any complaint. In these circumstances it does not appear to me that any further action is required.

Housing (United Kingdom)

asked the Joint Financial Secretary to the Treasury what amount the Treasury have estimated should be utilised after the War for the housing of the workers in the United Kingdom; and the amount which will be allotted to Ireland other than by loan in addition to the resources of local authorities?

As regards the first part of the question, no estimate has been or, in the nature of the circumstances, can be formed at this date of the requirements for housing in the United Kingdom after the War. In the meantime, I am not in a position to make any statement in reply to the second part of the question.

Field Service Badges

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether it has yet been decided to award every man who has served, but who is not eligible for the silver badge, some other distinguishing mark of service; (2) whether it has yet been decided to give men who have served abroad any distinguishing mark or marks for such service?

The question of a distinguishing mark for men who have served for certain periods in the field is now under consideration.

That does not reply to Question 45. With regard to Question 45, is my hon. Friend aware that men cannot get the silver badge now who were able to obtain it on the same kind of discharge six or seven months ago, and will he consider, in making this further investigation, whether it would not be advisable to give some other kind of badge to these men to show that they have served?

That is part of the general question which is being considered by the Committee. I hope I shall be able to announce a decision before the House rises.

Are men who have lost their health in the service of the country entitled to wear the silver badge?

I think not. I will send my hon. and gallant Friend the complete Regulations.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of giving that, and is not a man who has lost his health in serving the country as much entitled to the silver badge as a man who has been incapacitated through wounds?

African Campaign (Ribbon)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that numbers of officers and men were given the South African ribbons before the cessation of hostilities in the Boer War, a ribbon will now be issued for the African campaign to officers and men who have been invalided and are now in this country?

It will not be possible to consider the grant of a medal or riband to those who took part in operations in Africa in connection with the present War apart from the general operations. The whole question is, however, under consideration.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether there is any chance of these men getting a ribbon in the near future to show that they have been out?

I do not think so. It may be possible for them to get a distinguishing mark.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the question of giving some mark of recognition to the original Expeditionary Force who have been out since 1914?

That is part of the larger question to which I referred. It is a temporary mark to show what period of service certain soldiers have undergone in various theatres of War.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the adoption of the French method, which is working satisfactorily?

As the ribbon was given in the South African War, what is the difficulty about giving it now?

Officers (Disciplinary Measures)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the indignation felt, not alone in the Army but throughout the country, at the punishment inflicted on officers of long service and good record for the alleged severity of their dealing with men refusing to obey a military command; have these officers been in each case given the opportunity of trial by court-martial; and, if not, on what evidence they have been condemned?

These officers were not brought before a court-martial, but were dealt with by the Army Council, according to the usual procedure, on their own statements and on the reports of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Command.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it was owing to pressure brought to bear by Members of this House that these officers were deprived of their commissions?

The Army Council considered the reports and the statements of the officers themselves.

Will the hon. Gentleman read his own answer the other day in reply to a similar question?

Has not Brigadier-General Elliott been very harshly treated in this matter?

Is the hon. Gentleman reconsidering the extremely hard case of Colonel Gresson?

Will the hon. Gentleman stop the practice of sending men who will not fight into the Army, where men who do want to fight during the process of trying to induce these men to obey orders are dismissed from the Service?

asked the names and rank of officers relieved of appointments in connection with the Brightmore case?

The names and ranks are Brigadier-General G. S. Elliott and Major C. Grimshaw.

Is it not a fact that this man Brightmore has now been sentenced to two years' imprisonment, and are both these officers who are unemployed useful to the Army authorities? Has the hon. Gentleman a conscientious objection to answer?

Questions

Wormwood Scrubs Prison

asked the Home Secretary if he will make inquiry into the complaints about the insufficiency of food provided for prisoners at Wormwood Scrubs; and if he will inquire from the medical officer as to whether there is an increase of sickness due to this cause?

Very few complaints of insufficiency of food have been made at Wormwood Scrubs Prison, and these have all been considered and where necessary the diet has been supplemented on the recommendation of the medical officer. There has been no increase of sickness at this prison since the dietary was altered to meet the requirements of the Food Controller.

Seamen Survivors of Ships Submarined

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been drawn to the treatment of seamen survivors of submarined ships; if he is aware of the refusal to compensate them for their losses, and that they have to pay for the clothes which are supplied when rescued; if from the moment their ship is lost their wages cease; who is responsible for this treatment; and if the Government propose to take any action on behalf of these men?

My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade hopes to be in a position to make a statement on this subject very shortly.

House of Commons Sittings

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the pressure of Parliamentary work and the desirability of having certain measures passed before the Recess, he will see his way clear to initiate such steps as may be necessary to provide that the House shall meet at noon each day, therefore approximating the hours of labour to those of other professions and obviating, in some cases, the necessity for late sittings?

Reconstruction Committee

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the problems of a domestic nature which will arise after the War and of the National Service work women have performed during the War, he will arrange for the inclusion of at least one woman member on the Reconstruction Committee?

This question should, I think, be postponed until the Ministry of Reconstruction has been set up. Perhaps the hon. Member will then address it to the Minister of Reconstruction.

Does the suggestion of having at least one woman representative on the Reconstruction Committee meet with the approval of the Government?

I have already suggested that that question should be put to the Minister of Reconstruction. There are two women already on the Committee.

Lord Haldane

asked the Prime Minister whether Lord Haldane occupies any official or semi-official position under the Government which permits him access, under any circumstances whatsoever, to Departmental facts which are not accessible to the general public or even to the House of Commons?

I must refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave on Tuesday last to the hon. Member for the Ludlow Division.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Lord Haldane is uni- versally distrusted by the people—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—and that the action of the Government is looked upon as an affront to them?

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is now the average remuneration of an Infantry private without dependants, and of an Infantry private with a wife and two children, under the heads of pay, clothing, board, lodging, etc.; separation allowance paid by the State, if any: and grant from the Civil Liabilities Committee; and what is the total remuneration in each case?

The weekly value of the State's expenditure on the Infantry private corresponding to the wage payable in civil life is approximately as follows:

Will the hon. Gentleman at the same time say if there is a single case where the Civil Liabilities Committee has ever made any allowance at all?

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind a point which is omitted from that answer, the question of supplementing the allowance from the local war pensions Committee, which takes the place in the bulk of the cases of the civil liabilities Grant?

asked the Pensions Minister what provision is made out of national funds for the treatment in hospitals other than asylums of cases of uncertifiable loss of mental balance due to nerve-strain in warfare; whether in such cases any of the pension awarded to the men is stopped; what is done with the amount stopped; whether, in the event of the man recovering his balance but being unable to earn what he earned formerly, his pension is stopped on leaving the convalescent home or hospital; and does it also cease, when similarly circumstanced, on his discharge from an asylum?

Provision is made for cases of neurasthenia requiring residential treatment both by the Ministry directly and by local war pensions committees. The Home of Recovery at Golder's Green provides accommodation for 105 cases and arrangements are in progress for the establishment of other homes of the same character. In addition, a number of men have been sent to farm camps where they are provided with work suited to their several conditions. Local war pensions committees are also empowered to provide for neurasthenic cases in convalescent homes or other suitable institutions approved by the Ministry. During treatment an allowance of an amount equivalent to the maximum rate of pension, less 1s. a day for maintenance, is payable to the men and an allowance is also provided for their wives and families. On the termination of treatment the pension, if any, originally awarded is resumed. If a man, on discharge from an institution, whether an asylum or hospital, is, though mentally or physically improved, unable to earn as much as he earned before the War, he is entitled to apply for an alternative pension under Article 3 of the new Royal Warrant.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of the 100 men who have been treated are in this condition, and how many could be treated if you had the accommodation?

I am not able to give the total figure of how many are in this condition, probably 2,000 or 3,000. We are picking them up all the time and ascertaining how many there are. I dare say we have arrangements now on hand for treating 400 or 500.

Seeing that the right hon. Gentleman says there are 2,000 or 3,000 of these nerve shock cases, will he expedite arrangements whereby more of them can be accommodated in the Golder's Green Institution, instead of sending them, as many are sent, to lunatic asylums?

I can assure my hon. Friend we are expediting the arrangements as much as we possibly can. We are extremely pressed in regard to other matters as well as this; but I can assure my hon. Friend we are doing all we can to get as many of these men properly treated as it is possible to do. I would remind my hon. Friend that it is only a small proportion can be so treated institutionally at the present time.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many are on the waiting list at the Golder's Green institution?

asked the names of the members of the travelling medical boards appointed to inquire into the cases of men invalided through nerve-strain; how often do they sit; can they grant absolute exemption; have they power to compel a man back to the Army; and are they guided in their decision by reference to the opinion of any medical man acquainted with the patient's previous history?

There are fifty members of the special medical board dealing with neurasthenic cases. The board sits at Lancaster Gate daily and at numerous centres in the provinces once in three weeks or more frequently if necessary. The fact that a man's discharge has been approved by the board is an absolute exemption under the Review of Exceptions Act. The board have, of course, the power to refuse discharge, but the power is exercised sparingly. They have refused fifty cases out of 5,000. They have no power to compel a man to re-enter the Army who has been discharged, and they are always glad to have, and frequently apply for, the opinion of medical men acquainted with the patient's previous history. If the hon. Member will see me privately or write me a note, I can get the names for him. I have not, at the moment, got the names of the medical men.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say quite definitely in regard to the Review of Exceptions Act whether this certificate exempts a man in these circumstances whether he has served abroad or not?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the Act of Parliament neurasthenics are only exempted if they have served abroad?

asked what is the proper quarter to which an ex-soldier can make appeal in respect of his award when he has been given a half-disability pension, but finds that on attempting to return to work he is quite unable to support himself?

The ex-soldier in the circumstances referred to by the hon. Member should in the first instance go to his local committee, who, if he requires treatment, will be able to provide it for him and to give him an allowance equal to a pension for the highest degree of disability while undergoing it. If he does not require treatment, the local committee will assist the man in preparing an appeal, supported by any available medical testimony, to be forwarded to the Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions, Royal Hospital, Chelsea.

Is is not a fact, therefore, that the appeals are made to the same Board who made the original warrant?

Does not this arise from the fact that a man has no statutory right to any pension?

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has arrived at any decision with regard to extra pay to men detained in service entitled to such in lieu of pension in the fourth year of such service?

Yes, Sir. These men will receive detained pay at the rate of 8d. a day in respect of the fourth year of detained service, and the necessary Orders will be issued shortly.

Miss Hilda Howsin (Detention in Prison)

asked the Home Secretary how much longer it is intended to keep Miss Hilda Howsin in prison, and upon what ground he now considers her to be a danger to the Realm; whether he will allow her case to be reheard before the Advisory Committee; and, if so, whether she will be permitted to have counsel to represent her?

As was explained in the Debate in another place on the 24th July, I am considering, with the assistance of the Advisory Committee, whether any of the persons interned under Defence of the Realm Regulation 14 B can now be released. Miss Howsin's case will be examined in due course.

Motor Tractors (Petrol Supply)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that farmers who have, on the advice of the Board of Agriculture, invested hundreds of pounds for the purchase of motor tractors for ploughing and other farm work have had these tractors standing idle for weeks, and in some cases months, for want of petrol; and, seeing that in cases where petrol has been granted the amount allowed is only sufficient to work the tractor for seven days out of each month, whether he will instruct the Department concerned to give immediate consideration to such cases and provide an adequate supply for this urgent work?

The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. Applications for petrol licences in respect of motor tractors are readily granted, and I am not aware that any tractors have been standing idle for want of petrol. Motor tractors generally run on kerosene and use petrol only for starting, and the licences for the latter spirit are accordingly for small quantities only.

Are we to understand that in the case of privately owned tractors which use petrol petrol is obtainable?

I stated in my reply that licences for the tractors are readily granted. If the hon. Member has any case in mind and cares to send me particulars, I will inquire into it.

Newspaper Articles

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to articles which aim at enfeebling the resolution of the people to prosecute this War to a successful conclusion which are being published in the editorial columns of certain newspapers and paid for at advertising rates; and whether he will take steps to ascertain and publish both the names of these papers and also of the persons who are paying them, or, failing such discovery, will he insist that all articles for which papers receive payment for publication shall be submitted to the Censor with a statement to that effect attached?

I am not aware of the newspaper articles referred to, but if the hon. Member will furnish me with particulars I shall have inquiries made.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can now say whether he proposes to take any and what steps regarding certain statements contained in the "Financial News" to which his attention has been directed?

I am advised that the articles in question are capable of the construction that the Lord Chief Justice of England, alone or in concert with others, has placed himself in such a position that it is impossible or difficult for him to resist German influence or suggestion. It is, in the opinion of the Government, in the highest degree undesirable that money and time should be expended in the middle of a war in rebutting charges of such a kind. But I agree with my hon. Friend that a point comes when it is not possible to permit the repetition of these or similar charges. If there is any recurrence of them, immediate criminal proceedings will be taken

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on the day succeeding the putting of the question of 30th July all the charges were summarised in the same paper on 31st July?

Yes, and if I had happened to know as much about it as I now know I should then have given the answer I have given to-day.

Has the "Financial News" now changed hands and is it now in hands which will avoid any repetition of those charges?

The hon. Member is much more likely to be informed on that subject than I am. I was not aware of it.

Is it considered the correct thing for the Government to admit that they have been sinned against, and dismiss it with the threat, "If you do it again we shall act"? Surely there has been enough justification for action already?

I think the answer I have given shows clearly—and I am sure the House will agree with me—that it is not desirable to spend money or time in these things unless it is necessary.

Why should money be spent in buying the paper rather than in prosecuting it?

Commercial Treaties

asked the Prime Minister what steps have actually been taken to denounce the most-favoured-nation clauses of our commercial treaties with other countries?

The subject, which is of considerable complexity, is still under the consideration of His Majesty's Government.

I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that we fully realise the importance of it, but it is not a question which can be settled offhand, and the Foreign Office is now in consultation with the Law Officers in regard to it.

Board of Admiralty

asked the Prime Minister if the Patent establishing a new Board of Admiralty has been issued, and if it is intended to make any changes in the allotment of duties and powers as between the various members of the Board; and, if so, will he state to Parliament what are the changes intended?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which I gave yesterday to the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone.

Is not the real reason why this delay is taking place the desire of the Government to obtain naval officers to form a new Board which will carry out the policy of the present Minister of Munitions as adumbrated in the New York papers?

There really is not a shadow of foundation for any such suggestion, and I am informed that the newspaper article to which the hon. and gallant Gentleman refers was written a long time ago, and published in an English paper when the right hon. Gentleman was a, private Member.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman and the Government will remember that article.

King George and Prince Henry of Prussia

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the telegram sent by the German Emperor to President Wilson on the 14th August, 1914, containing statements alleged to have been made by Prince Henry of Prussia in relation to the foreign policy of Great Britain and her attitude towards the Allied Powers by His Majesty the King, to which a denial has been given, the Government will give an assurance that the rule of constitutional practice still obtains, that the Sovereign does not take independent action in foreign affairs, and that everything which passes between him and foreign Ministers is known to his own Ministers, who are responsible to the people for policy and to the law for acts done; and whether, in accordance with the practice in Queen Victoria's reign, private letters addressed by the Sovereign to foreign princes or received from them, if they touch upon politics, are shown to the Prime Minister or to the Foreign Secretary or to both?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the second part, there has been no change in the practice prevailing in the reign of Her late Majesty Queen Victoria.

Was it customary for the Sovereign to deal directly with foreign affairs? Has the Sovereign a foreign policy of his own?

It was not the custom of Her late Majesty, nor is it the custom of His present Majesty.

Taxation

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intends, after the Autumn Recess, to introduce a new Budget and impose additional taxation?

Shall we have a statement on the subject before we adjourn, because it will relieve our anxiety?

If the hon. Member is anxious that increased taxation should be imposed I am sorry I cannot relieve that anxiety.

Taxicabs at Railway Stations

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has further considered the question of the refusal of taxi-cab drivers to enter railway station termini cab-ranks on account of the demand of the railway companies of a fee of 1d.; and whether, in view of the shortage of cabs, petrol, and drivers, and the inconvenience to officers and men home on leave, as well as the travelling public, he will advise that the charge made under the London Cab and Stage Carriage Act of 1907 by the railway companies should be suspended during the period of the War?

I am afraid that I cannot usefully add anything to the reply given to the question which the hon. Gentleman asked on Monday last.

Jewellery Sales

asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been drawn to the large amounts of jewellery sold at the present time; if the manufacture of jewellery is allowed during the War: what is the source of the gold used in the manufacture; and if the raw gold arriving in this country is all purchased by the Government?

I am, of course, aware that jewellery is being sold. There is no prohibition on its manufacture, but any gold used for the purpose must be derived mainly, if not entirely, from prewar stocks or from old gold articles. The melting-down of gold coins is prohibited, and no new gold is issued by the Bank of England for the manufacture of jewellery. The Proclamation of the 5th December, 1916, prohibits the importation, except under licence given by the Board of Trade, of "gold manufactured or unmanufactured, including gold coin and articles consisting partly of or containing gold." The prohibition does not apply to gold consigned for delivery at and sale to the Bank of England, and such licences as have been issued by the Board have with few exceptions been conditional on the gold being placed at the disposal of the Bank.

I am not aware that any at present are in contemplation. If the hon. Member will address a question to me accordingly, I will reply.

Is it not better, under any circumstances, to prohibit the manufacture of jewellery at the present time?

asked if the import of jewellery and precious stones and pearls. is allowed; and if licences are required for such imports?

The importation of jewellery is prohibited, but unset precious stones (except diamonds) and unset pearls are admitted under general licence for the present. There is a special prohibition on unset diamonds, which is administered by the Foreign Trade Department.

Merchant Service (Silver War Badge)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether arrangements with the Admiralty and the War Office have now been made to enable the necessary alteration being made in the Royal Warrant in order to entitle officers and men of the merchant service, incapacitated from further employment by enemy acts, to wear the silver war badge?

The details of a scheme for the issue of the silver war badge to officers and men of the merchant service incapacitated from further employment by acts of the enemy are now being arranged, but are not yet completed.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any idea when he is likely to be able to make public the arrangements arrived at, and will he see that immediately they are arrived at they can be made public?

I will give my hon. Friend an undertaking on the latter point. There is this and two or three other questions outstanding respecting the merchant service. I am anxious to get them settled and to make a statement regarding them as soon as possible. I will do all I can to expedite them.

Munitions

Australian Workmen

asked the Minister of Munitions how many skilled workmen have arrived in this country from Australia during the last four weeks, and how many of them are of military age?

Nine hundred and seven skilled workmen have arrived from Australia during the last four weeks. It is not possible at this moment to say how many of these are of military age.

Is the Government encouraging men of military age to come from the Colonies to this country to take the place of men in this country?

No, but the Government greatly appreciate the help they have received from Australia in this respect.

Industrial Unrest

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in view of the recommendations of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the industrial unrest, it is proposed to take immediate steps to set up in the munitions centres representative committees of employers and trade unionists; what methods it is proposed to adopt in order to secure committees which will command general confidence; what powers it is proposed to entrust to the committees; and whether, in order to give the new machinery adequate scope and to ensure the decentralisation of control recommended by the Commissioners, he will consider the expediency of basing the proposed committees on the existing enlistment complaints committees?

My right hon. Friend is actively engaged in considering the whole of this question, and hopes very shortly to formulate a plan in consultation with the Ministry of Labour. It is impossible to go into detail at this stage.

Housing (Queensferry)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether about 1,000 houses are being erected by the Government at or near Queensferry; if so, will he state the cost of these houses, including road-making, sewering, electric light, architects' fees, and all expenses; at what rent are they let and what is the rate of interest on the cost of the houses represented by the net rent received; whether he can make any statement as to the average wages received by the tenants; and whether there is any reason why houses erected by the Government for persons employed by the Government should not be let at an economic rent?

A small number of houses (less than 200) have been erected for some of the officials, foremen, police, etc., whom it is necessary for the efficient working of one of His Majesty's factories to have resident on the spot. Rents for the period of the War have been fixed, after taking the advice of a local estate agent with regard to the rents usual in the district.

Will the hon. Gentleman state what rent is charged for these six-roomed houses, and will be answer the last part of my question as to the average receipts in Government money of the tenants of these Government houses?

I think on the first point I can give the hon. Member the information, but the second would require a great deal of inquiry.

Women Employes' Wages

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that at the controlled establishment of Messrs. Owen and Dyson, Rotherham, women and girls are only being paid the ordinary day rates for night work, although the custom of the district is to pay time and a-fifth; and whether he will have inquiries made into the matter in order to secure payment of the proper rates, retrospectively and prospectively?

I was not aware of this matter, but have given instructions for an immediate inquiry, the result of which will be communicated to my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that Messrs. Allen and Elshaw, Limited, of Cliff Foundry, Dronfield, Sheffield, which is a controlled firm, are employing women as small-core makers at rates of wages ranging from 7s to 11s. for a 46½ hours' week; if he is aware that such wages paid are many shillings below the rates paid for such class of work; if he is aware that the firm in question are entitled to pay the recent award of 3s. per week given by the Committee on Production in connection with the engineering and foundry trades; if he is aware that so far the firm have refused to consent to pay; if he is aware that the women workers at the firm are entitled to an extra 2s. 6d. per week, in accordance with the recent award given in connection with the advances of women workers' wages; and if he will take action in the matter?

No establishment under this name is controlled. Instructions have been given for an investigation into the matters complained of, and the result will be communicated to my hon. Friend.

Questions

Civil Liabilities Committee

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the Civil Liabilities Committee have made any suggestion about meeting the cases of men who are likely to resume their old business when war is over, and, if so, what; and whether the Government have come to any decision in the matter?

Some suggestions have been made with regard to the continuation of the Civil Liabilities scheme during the period of demobilisation. These suggestions are still under consideration.

Royal Fleet Reserve

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Royal Fleet Reserve is to be kept up for five years, or what will be the position of the men on the cessation of hostilities?

By a Royal Proclamation of the 17th July, 1917, authority is given to retain the Royal Naval Reserve, Royal Fleet Reserve, and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve in actual service for a period of five years if their services are so long required; but it is not the intention to use this power to extend the services of these men beyond the period covered by the expression "the duration of the War."

Soldiers' Leave

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether arrangements are being or, so far as military exigencies permit, will be made to allow men who have had no leave since the War began to enjoy short leave of absence?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Private R. W. Spence, No. 52. 096, A Company, 1st Battalion Cheshire Regiment, has now been at the front for two years and three months, has been wounded three times, and has not yet had any leave; whether he is aware that Private Spence recently applied for marriage leave to his company officer and produced in support of his application a marriage licence for himself and Miss Maud C. Stocks, of Watford, but his application was not granted; and whether, in the circumstances of the case, Private Spence may be granted marriage leave?

I would refer my hon. Friends to the statement which I made in Debate on the 30th July. Everything that is possible is being done.

Shall I give my hon. Friend a list of men from my own Constituency who have had no leave?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the men of the. 5th Battery, Royal Field Artillery, have been informed that concession tickets will not be granted to men proceeding on week-end leave, and, since this order does not apply to other batteries, why it has been issued in this particular case; and, in view of the hardship imposed on soldiers distant from their homes, what action it is proposed to take?

As my hon. Friend knows, week-end leave involving railway travel is not now permitted, except in very special circumstances. I am not aware of the circumstances in the case brought to light by my hon. Friend, but I will have inquiries made.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he has official information to the effect that the French War Office propose to allow all soldiers in the fighting line ten days' leave every four months, totalling thirty days a year; and, if so, whether he will consider as to allowing all British soldiers in the front lines the same amount of leave as given to the French troops by this proposal?

I understand that the French authorities are introducing a scheme such as my hon. Friend adumbrates, but that it cannot come into operation just yet. The circumstances of the British Army in France are quite different from those of the French in this matter, owing to the Channel passage and the difficulty of providing adequate transport and railway facilities. I am afraid, therefore, that any such proposal as my hon. Friend suggests cannot be entertained.

Anti-Typhoid Vaccine

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will give particulars of the approved methods which are used in testing anti-typhoid vaccine at every stage in its manufacture to ensure that no other bacilli are present?

Royal Flying Corps (Overseas Forces)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, in view of the aptitude for aviation shown by Canadians, Australians, and South Africans, he will consider the advisability of encouraging rather than discouraging overseas men to qualify for admission into the Royal Flying Corps?

My hon. Friend's suggestion is not borne out by the facts. The proportion of oversea men among the pilots of the Royal Flying Corps has always been large, and every encouragement is given to them. There are special officers in the Dominions selecting cadets.

Will the War Office make a definite statement that they will welcome volunteers from the overseas Forces for the purpose of training as fliers?

I hope that the answer to my hon. Friend's question will get sufficient publication in the Colonies. Every encouragement is given to these men in the Dominions, where there are actually now special officers selecting cadets.

Compulsory Vaccination (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware of the feeling throughout Ireland against the compulsory vaccination of infants; whether he is aware that in the Enniscorthy union there are thousands of defaulters under the Vaccination Acts; that the Enniscorthy guardians have informed the Local Government Board that they will resign their positions as guardians sooner than oppose the wishes of the majority of the electors who returned them as guardians; that the answer of the Local Government Board has only been to move for a writ of mandamus against those guardians who refuse to prosecute defaulters; that a defence fund has been opened locally to pay the costs of the guardians; that two prominent tradesmen at Gorey were handcuffed and marched through the streets of the town on their way to Mountjoy prison, Dublin, to serve a term of imprisonment for not paying a vaccination fine, and that these men paid the fine when they reached Dublin; and whether he will introduce a short Bill embodying in the Irish Vaccination Acts the conscience Clauses of the English and Scottish Acts?

As regards the first part of the question, I cannot add anything to the answer I gave to the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wexford and the statement I made in Debate on Tuesday. The number of defaulters in Enniscorthy Union is, I am aware, very large. As to the remainder of the question, I am informed that two local car owners were arrested in Gorey on 19th July on warrant for failing to pay fines under the Vaccination Acts; that one of them told a local sergeant that he would escape from cusody en route to Dublin; that as a precautionary measure both prisoners were handcuffed together; and that on reaching Harcourt Street Station they paid the fines and were discharged.

Technical and Scientific Education (Ireland)

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether his attention has been drawn to the resolution adopted by the recent Irish Technical Congress in regard to the urgent need of additional funds for the development of technical, agricultural, and scientific education in Ireland; whether the matter has been considered by the Agricultural Board or the Board of Technical Instruction; and what action the Department propose to take with a view to providing the necessary funds?

The attention of the Department of Agriculture has been drawn to the resolution referred to. The necessity for obtaining additional funds for the purposes mentioned has received careful consideration in consultation between the Department of Agriculture, the Agricultural Board, and the Board of Technical Instruction, and detailed proposals have been formulated.

Telegraphic Facilities, Manchester

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the inconvenience caused to numbers of persons who are anxious to dispatch and receive telegrams in the district of Clayton, Manchester; and if he will make inquiries into the matter, with a view to arranging for the dispatching and receiving of telegrams at the Clayton Post-office, Ashton New Road, Manchester?

Inquiries have shown that the amount of telegraph business likely to be done would be small, and there is already a telegraph office within half a mile of the Clayton Post-office. At the present time, when it is necessary to close a number of telegraph offices owing to the withdrawal of the telegraph staff, an extension of the telegraph system to Clayton would not be justified.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that large numbers of industries are springing up in this district and that these people are complaining that they even have to walk half a mile?

I am afraid that nothing can be done at present in the way of extending telegraphic facilities.

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

Can my right hon. Friend say what will be the business of the House next week?

On Monday we shall take Supply—Oolonial Office Vote, Army Medical Vote, and National Service Vote.

On Tuesday, the Representation of the People Bill.

On Wednesday, the Representation of the People Bill, and Supplementary Estimate for the Ladies' Grille.

On Thursday, we shall have the Motion for the Adjournment, worded in such a way as to take effect after the Amendments made in another place to the Corn Production Bill have been considered.

Does the First Lord of the Admiralty propose to make any statement before the Adjournment as to the recent changes at the Admiralty?

I said to my right hon. Friend yesterday that he hoped to do so. I have seen him to-day, and I still have that hope, but not before Thursday.

The Second Reading of the War Loan Bill is down for to-day. Could the Leader of the House say how long it is proposed to sit with regard to the Representation of the People Bill, so that the Second Reading of the Loan Bill may be taken at a reasonable hour?

My right hon. Friend cannot say exactly what time he expects his Bill to take. I hope to get the War Loan Bill to-night. Of course, if it is very late I shall have to make another arrangement, but I shall be very sorry to have to do so.

The object of my question is not to prevent progress with the Bill, but merely to ensure that as this is a very important matter it should not be taken at such a late hour as to prevent proper discussion. The Representation of the People Bill cannot become law until next October, and it is much more important that a question which deals with over £1,000,000,000 should be discussed.

I quite realise the force of what my hon. Friend says, and I hope that we shall be able to have the discussion at an hour which in present conditions will not seem unreasonable.

Will any statement be made on behalf of the Government with regard to the new scheme for recruiting and the recommendations of the Select Committee before the Adjournment Debate?

If it is not done before the Adjournment Debate will not the House be given an opportunity of discussing the Government scheme?

If the details are arranged before Thursday, then a statement can be made. If not, it will be impossible, but I anticipate that it will be possible.

Is it not intended that the House should sit after the Adjournment Debate, and, consequently, the statement could be discussed after the Adjournment Debate?

Is it intended, as reported widely, to give the recruiting arrangements to the Ministry of National Service; and, if so, are we not to know this before we have the Debate upon the Vote on Monday next?

If I were in a position to answer that question I should be in a position to make a statement. I am not.

With regard to the Adjournment of the Debate I understand it may be necessary to have more than one day to discuss the Lords Amendments to the Corn Production Bill, and there are other subjects which will arise. Shall we be deprived by the form of the notice on Friday of an opportunity for subsequent discussion on the day on which we do actually adjourn?

I will consider that, but I cannot answer definitely one way or the other.

I am sorry I cannot say, as my right hon. Friend is still engaged in conferences, but on Monday I will make a statement.

May I ask my right hon. Friend not to take the Loans Bill to-day at all.

I really cannot do that. I must be guided by the feeling of the majority.

In view of the importance of the second Order on the Paper (War Loan Bill), will the Leader of the House suggest to the Home Secretary that we should not attempt to carry Clause 18.

The hon. Member is putting the same question again.

Ordered, "That the other Government Business have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

Resolved, "That this House do sit Tomorrow."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

Representation of the People Bill

Considered in Committee.—[ Progress, 4th July. ]

[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 15.—(Modification of Method of Voting in Certain Constituencies.)

(1) In a constituency returning three or more members, any election of the full number of members shall be according to the principle of proportional representation, each elector having one transferable vote as defined by this Act.

(2) If at an election for one member of Parliament there are more than two candidates, the election shall be according to the principle of the alternative vote as defined by this Act.

(3) At a contested election for a university constituency, where there are two-members to be elected, no person shall vote for more than one candidate.

(4) His Majesty may by Order in Council frame Regulations prescribing the method of voting, and transferring and counting votes, at any election, according to the principle of the transferable or of the alternative vote and for adapting the provisions of the Ballot Act, 1872, and any other. Act relating to Parliamentary elections thereto, and with respect to the duties of returning officers in connection therewith; and any such Regulations shall have effect as if they were enacted in this Act.

(5) Nothing contained in this Act shall, except as expressly provided herein,, affect the method of conducting Parliamentary elections in force at the time of the passing of this Act.

The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Tyne-mouth (Mr. H. J. Craig) is a matter for Sub-section (3).

Before the first Amendment is proceeded with, I wish to raise a point of Order, and my object is to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I do this for the purpose of calling attention to the action of the Government in setting down this important Bill for discussion to-day. I think that every Member of the House will agree that it is one of the most far-reaching and important reform Bills ever brought before this House, and whilst most of us, I think, agree with its general provisions, there were many of us who thought that it ought never to have been brought forward in war-time We thought that it should have stood over until after the War, when we would be free from its preoccupations.

Yes; I simply meant that I wished, before the Debate on this Amendment was proceeded with, to move, as I believe I have a perfect right to do to report Progress. I think it is quite in order to do that.

The hon. Gentleman has a right to move to report Progress, but it is within the power of the Chair to refuse to accept such Motion, and I should very much regret, if the hon. Gentleman presses his Motion to report Progress, to be put in the position of having to refuse its acceptance.

I am the last person in the world who would wish to break the Rules, Mr. Deputy-Chairman, and, after what you have said, I will not make that Motion. But I really thought I had a perfect right to move it, and my chief object was to say that, at this late period of the Session, when we are in the hot days of August, and many Members have gone away—

I asked the hon. Member whether he was going to press his Motion or withdraw it, and I would prefer that he adopt the latter course, rather than that I should be put in the position of having to refuse the Motion. If the hon. Member is really going to move to report Progress on the grounds stated, then, of course, I cannot accept it.

On the point of Order. Do you really rule, Mr. Chairman, that a Member has not the right, and that it is out of order, to move to report Progress?

In the absence of my hon. Friend (Mr. M. Barlow), who had given notice of the Amendment, I beg to move to leave out Subsection (2).

4.0 P.M.

In doing so I may say that I am very much struck by the vagueness in the Subsection, and by the still greater vagueness in the definition of what is called the alternative vote given at the end of Clause 28. Surely, in a matter affecting our future electoral process, nothing should be left uncertain, and any novel or strange machinery that is to be introduced into that electoral process ought to be clearly explained, and clear and intelligible rules ought to be laid down for its opera- tion. Definite information, or at least clear guidance, should be given as to the precise part a change of this sort is to play in the future constitution of this first and greatest Parliament in the world. I can find nothing of the sort in the Bill. When I turn to the Subsection, the first question I have to ask myself, and which is unanswered, is whether the Sub-section applies only to single-member constituencies. I gather not, and that it also applies to by-elections in constituencies with more than one member. But there is nothing to state that in the Bill. If that is so, we are at once face to face with this position, that a totally different process is applied to the same constituency in a by-election from what is applied in it at a General Election. That, to my mind, is one of the first and strongest objections to this Sub-section. An obvious instance which may interest the right hon. Member for the City is the case of the City of London itself. If there is a by-election in the City it will be held on the principle of the alternative vote, and I shall give an illustration which, I think, will show how even such a popular Member as the right hon. Baronet might be placed under those circumstances.

Turning to the definition at the end of Clause 28 of the alternative vote, I see that it is stated to be a vote "given so as to indicate the voter's preference for the candidates in order." The first thing I have to observe here is that there is nothing to compel the voter to cover all the candidates with his preferences. There is nothing to say that he must put an ordinal number to each and every one of the candidates standing. If there are three candidates for the one seat he can put first or No. 1 to one of them and leave the other two blank, or he can put 1 and 2 to two of them and leave the third blank. If that is not so, we are up against this extraordinary proposition, that a voter must fill all the candidates up, 1, 2, 3, or 4, and that this Bill is going to compel a man to vote in the form of second, third, or fourth preferences for a candidate representing views diametrically opposed to his own. I can hardly imagine that that is contemplated in the Bill, and therefore it seems to me quite obvious that it is left to the voter either to fill in his preferences, 1, 2, or 3, or to vote for only one candidate and leave the others blank. May I put a simple hypothetical case of an election held under those circumstances? It is a case in which there are 5,000 voters voting, and A., B. and C. are standing for the one seat. We will assume that A. gets 2,400 first choices, and B. gets 1,600 first choices, and C. gets 1,000 first choices. The first result is that, although A. has a majority of 800 over B., and of 1,400 over C.,. he is not elected. Surely that will be a very startling event to the mind of the ordinary British elector. A. is not elected because he has not, in the words of the definition, "a clear majority of the total number of votes given." I think that will be looked upon as an extremely newfangled plan. What follows? By an arrangement beforehand—and I call the attention of the Committee to the significance of those words—the voters for B. and C. mark their papers in this way: B. first and C. second, or C. first and B. second. They take no notice of A., who has a majority over the other candidates. Then, automatically, C.'s second choice votes are transferred to B., and he gets in in preference to A., who has got a majority of 800 over him. The result is that the clear majority of first choice votes that A. had over B. and over C., respectively, is nullified and the constituency does not get the man it wants. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!"] I am perfectly willing to listen to the arguments of the hon. Gentleman who interrupts, and I should prefer them to such interruptions.

Does the hon. Gentleman assume that the whole of C.'s second votes are transferred to B.?

Yes, I am assuming that. I have another case to put to the Committee. Supposing B. and C. tied with 1,300 votes each, to which of them is the second choice of the other to be transferred? There is nothing in the Bill about it, and it is not explained in the least. On these points I submit that it is an unheard-of proposition to bring before this House to ask us to place our electoral process at the mercy of a plan which its authors do not explain, and no one can understand, and which will make confusion worse confounded. It can only have one certain and sinister result, that it will make log-rolling and manipulation permanent in this country, and that it will resuscitate caucus work all over the electorate. With regard to the effect of such a system upon political parties or groups, a very interesting calculation has been made covering the by-elections, in which three candidates, or more than three, stood for one seat from 1910–1914. There were twenty-four of such contests, and they resulted in the election of ten Unionists and fourteen Liberals. The calculation shows that if the alternative vote had been in force the result of the combinations would have been as follows: First, supposing the Labour party had combined with the Liberals, there would have been twenty-two Liberals and two Unionists returned. Next, supposing the Labour party had combined with the Unionists, there would have been twenty Unionists and four Liberals returned. Will anyone in this House say, or argue, that either of these results would have been comparable, in respect to their true representation of the people of the constituencies concerned, with the result that has been arrived at through the existing system? No! I am sorry that I am unable to develop my argument further; I will only say that it seems to me that human ingenuity could not invent any electoral plan which would give such an opportunity for corrupt bargaining beforehand between the parties as that embodied in this Sub-section, and in the definition which applies to it.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman if the Liberals and the Tories combine, would not that prevent the Labour man getting in?

Undoubtedly —absolutely! I thank my hon. Friend for the illustration he gives, which increases the absurdity of the proposition before the Committee. I would only, in conclusion, ask whether it is really necessary in this great settlement for the future of the basis of our Parliamentary system that we should travel all over the world, from China to Peru, in order to find some new-fangled device to introduce into a system which has characterised the history of Parliament in a country where Parliaments were first born, and which has given to all other countries the model of Parliaments? Is it necessary to support this and similar devices by appeals to the example of Tasmania and Belgium, countries which have only taken up the Parliamentary system more recently? Certainly, it is not necessary for us to have recourse to such changes; in order to effect an enlightened reform of our present system. I have only to add that this Sub-section, as is well known, was only passed by a majority of votes at the Conference, and I understand that the decision of it is to be left to the House.

The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has given the Committee a certain number of reasons why this particular form of electing Members to this House should not be adopted without very grave scrutiny and care. I confess I share his astonishment that the Speaker's Conference came to include, in their records, this particular method of election at all. I was not a member of the Speaker's Conference, and I do not know how it got there. But I do know, as the hon. Gentleman has said, that it was only included in the recommendations by a majority, and it is also known that several members of the Conference did not know it had been included. I was speaking to one right hon. Gentleman, a member of the Conference, some weeks ago, and I asked him: "How did you come to put down the recommendation of the transferable vote?" and he replied: "What is the transferable vote?" I tried to explain to him what it was, and he said: "We never put such a thing down as one of our recommendations." I said to him: "I beg your pardon, it is there." His reply was that he did not know it. I went across to the Vote Office, got the Report, and showed it to him. His comment on this was: "It was put down when I was not present at the Conference, and that is all I know." If that is the way this very important matter came to be put down in the recommendations from the Speaker's Conference, surely we ought not to accept it without very, very careful consideration. I will admit that if we were now in mid-Victorian times, and if the Bill we are now discussing was not the Representation of the People Bill, 1917, but the Representation of the People Bill, 1867, there might be something for this proposal. In those days there only were two political parties—the Whigs and the Tories, or the Liberals and the Conservatives—call them what you like. Principles prevailed that are given in the lines of: Gilbert and Sullivan, when every boy That is not the case now. The little boy born now is not a Liberal or a Conservative, but Labour. We have now three distinct parties. There are to-day in Great Britain—I say Great Britain— three official parties. When the three official parties seek representation in this House the alternative vote is simply; a parody on every principle of fair representation.

Let me give the Committee an example, perhaps rather a fuller example than my hon. Friend gave of how this contingent, or alternative vote, as it is called in the Dominions—transferable vote we call it— will work in single-member constituencies. We will imagine an election about to take place, and that the three parties have each officially nominated a candidate. I am going to give the candidates three names and three policies which do not exist, and then I will try to work out what will happen. We have, first of all, Smith, an Imperialist, the two biggest planks in whose platform is a protective tariff and an efficient, up-to-date Second Chamber. We have Jones, a Social Reformer, standing for Free Trade and no interference with the friendly relations between the two Houses. We have Brown, an Industrialist, who stands for the protection of home industries and single-chamber government. These three gentlemen with their policies—imaginary, of course—are nominated and go to the poll. Before the poll a close canvass is made by the party agents, and it is discovered that the contest between Smith and Jones will be very close, that the probable result will be a small majority for Smith, and that Brown, the Industrialist, will poll well, but that he will be a clear third. This is on the first count. It is perfectly obvious that all the interest in this election, the only one bit of interest in it, is this: How will the Industrialists mark their preference papers, and to whom will they give their second vote? On that the whole thing depends. It does not matter whether it is Brown or Smith who beats the other by 300 or 400 votes. What really matters is how the 1,000 supporters, say, of Brown, the Industrialist, mark their papers with the No. 2 vote. To whoever they give it, whether Smith or Jones, to Parliament Smith or Jones will go.

I imagine for the moment that the election is fought in the most open and honourable way in which it could be fought But we have to remember this, that no matter how honourably the election may be fought, however honestly the supporters of Brown mark their ballot papers, they have got to send the man to Parliament who is not going to represent them in one of the most important points of policy of their programme. They may say to themselves, "We prefer Jones, the Social Reformer, and we will vote for him. Thus they vote for a man who is going to Parliament as a Free Trader, they themselves being very anxious to have protection for their home industries. Or they may say this: "We prefer to get protection for our industries, and therefore we will vote for Smith, who at any rate has got a protective tariff on his programme; we will vote for him knowing perfectly well that we will send him to Parliament to vote for a strong Second Chamber, one of the things we object to." The candidate goes to Parliament, elected by the votes of those who disagree with his policy in an important particular. This, then, is the policy of the alternative vote, working it out at its very best. But it may not always work quite so honestly and quite so above-board. In a general way it certainly will not. All these No. 2 votes may not be votes honestly or conscientiously given. They may, for instance, be votes given merely for wrecking purposes. I am sorry to see that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Leicester is not in his place. If he had been, I think I should have got his support for what I am going to say now. In the paper entitled "Forward" for last month the hon. Member for Leicester wrote as follows regarding the alternative vote: be revenged on the Centre party, the Radical block, all these extreme Conservatives voted, not for the Liberals, but for the Socialist candidate, and got him in. The result was that a Socialist went into the French Chamber to represent that particular division. When he went into the Chamber he was hailed by the members as "Monsieur le Due," and as that he remained.

I said the second ballot. That, at any rate, was the result of the second ballot which is the French form of the alternative vote. Again, there may be bargains, not corrupt bargains, but bargains made between parties before the election. Not only will they be made but under this system of voting you must make them. One party which knows that its candidate will be third on the list will naturally seek to make the best use they can of the No. 2 vote. A bargain will be struck with one of the other parties, and as a result that other party's man will go to the House. He will not go to the House to represent his own party, but will go there to represent the minority, knowing perfectly well that he has got in, not by the votes of his own party altogether, but by the extra votes given to him by the party which disagrees with him. He will be the representative of a minority. He will be prisoner of that minority. He will come to this House without the liberty of conscience fully and openly to support the policy which the leaders of that party put before the country and the House. Let me show how the result will work out. From December, 1910, to January, 1914, there were fourteen by-elections fought in which there were three candidates. In those fourteen by-elections the Liberal party secured 87,000 votes, and got nine seats; the Unionists secured 76,156 votes and got five seats; the Labour party polled 45,273 votes and got no seats. Supposing there had been a Liberal-Labour combination against the Unionists, obviously the Liberal-Labour combination would have won all fourteen seats, and, although the country might be tending towards the Conservative party, the by-elections with that combination would have shown that Liberals and Labour were sweeping the country. Equally, of course, if there had been a Unionist-Labour combination in those fourteen contests, the Liberals would only have got one seat instead of nine, and the Conservatives thirteen seats instead of five. That shows what would have been the result if this particular method of voting had been in operation during those four years 1910 to 1914.

I do not need to labour the point any further. Surely every hon. Member must see what a bad system of election this would be. What advantage has it got? Will the alternative vote curb the power of the party machine? Certainly it will not. It puts in the hands of the party machine the power of bargaining—either honourable or corrupt bargaining. Again, will this bargaining, whether officially recognised or secret, add to the purity of political life? I do not think any hon. Member will say that it will. Then there will be no stability of policy under the alternative vote. Those are three questions, and many more might be asked. If they cannot be answered honestly in the affirmative, then surely this method of election ought to be deleted from the Bill. In conclusion, I do ask the Committee not to force on the country a method of election which has been cast off, or is about to be cast off by other countries—the cast-off clothes of other countries.

My hon. Friend below the Gangway rather accused me of mixing up the second ballot and the alternative vote. The second ballot, he knows as well as I do, is in operation, and has been in operation in a great many continental countries. It is because the second ballot works so unfairly that the French people are resolved on proportional representation, and if it had not been for the War they would have had proportional representation. Our German enemies, again, only just before the War, had a resolution proposed in their Reichstag in favour of proportional representation as against the second ballot, and it was only defeated by one vote. Therefore, in those two countries, at any rate, the second ballot has failed. Then, again, my hon. Friend below the Gangway says that if the second ballot has failed, that does not show that the alternative vote or the preferential or contingent vote has failed where it has been applied in our own Dominions. Curiously enough, only the other day I had the opportunity of conversation with the Premier of New South Wales, Mr. Holman, and he told me how unsatisfactory they found that particular form of voting they used in New South Wales. He himself, and the majority of his Government, were in favour of proportional representation, and he told me that, what was true of New South Wales, I could take it was true of the whole of Australia. Therefore, on the Continent and in the Dominions we have this system under discussion proved to be unsatisfactory. The country that adopts it sheds it, and means to get something better, or, at any rate, means to get rid of a system which has always proved to be very bad. Therefore, I very strongly ask the Committee to agree to this Amendment.

I have listened, as I am sure other hon. Members have listened, with interest and care to what has been said by the two hon. Gentlemen who have moved and seconded the omission of this Sub-section, and I hope the Committee will continue to discuss this important question in the spirit which they have shown. Neither of them has urged that this is a change which is going to serve some particular party or point of view, and I do not think it is an argument which could be fairly used, certainly not at this time, because it is impossible for any of us to know how parties will tend to divide when the War is over.

I should have thought it was true generally, but perhaps the hon. Member is a better prophet than I am. At any rate, this is a proposal which is addressed to meet an undoubted, and, indeed, an admitted evil. The real question is, is the remedy well-advised for meeting that evil? I have not heard either of the hon. Members who have spoken really frankly admit, as I am sure they would be prepared to do, that there is an evil which we ought to meet if we can. What is that evil? It is notorious and obvious to everybody. It is that at every General Election a certain number of persons are returned by constituencies, not owing to the choice of the majority of those who vote, but owing to the choice of a minority who vote. That is the evil, and there is no question whatever that it does occur, and I suppose nobody in this House will deny that it is an evil. The hon. Member for West- minster gave us some hypothetical figures, and I will deal with them, but I thought he chose a rather odd and unlikely example when he assumed that the person who was returned on the first votes was a person who could not capture even the secondary support of any other voter in the constituency. If such a case did occur, it is perfectly obvious that that person is not returned by a majority of those voting. It seems to me a most unlikely contingency. But if we are to accept his hypothesis that, as a matter of fact, in a constituency where 5,000 people vote, A., who gets 2,400 first choice votes, cannot beat up so much as another hundred voters who want him as a second choice, it follows necessarily that A. is one of those strange and unusual persons who, although returned by 2,400, as a matter of fact has not a majority of voters behind him at all.

Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to explain? I took the case I did in order to carry on the basis from which I started, so as to illustrate that the voter was free to fill up one space and leave the others blank if he liked. I took that case all through. The voters for A. do not like the other candidates, and therefore do not fill up their spaces. The voters for B. and C. make an arrangement together. The voters for B. prefer B., but they put down their second preference for C The Voters for C. prefer C, but they put down their second preference for B., and in that way B. is elected, although he is beaten, by a large majority of first-choice votes, by A.

I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman. We all want to follow one another's illustrations, because this is a practical matter which ought not to be discussed in any sort of heat. At the same time, one wants to see whether there may not be a good answer even to a point put forward with the best of good faith. It seems to me there is an answer, I do not repeat the first and obvious answer that we are assuming a very unusual and anomalous state of things, but let us assume it. It still remains true, on the hon. Member's own illustration, that a majority of those voting do not want A. at any price, and although they do not want A. at any price, the present system is one by which they get him. That seems to me to be a defect, and the question is whether it is a defect which we can meet by some simple and practical remedy without creating a series of new evils which at present we have not got. Here I come to the hon. Member who seconded. He painted in gloomy colours some of the awkward consequences which he thought would follow if this Sub-section were added to the Bill. But most of those consequences, so far as they do occur, do not occur because you either have this system or because you do not have this system. They are due to the fact that everybody stands, not for one single point of policy, but for a number of important aspects of policy, and if there be cross-divisions of opinion there is nothing for it—you have to lump it as best you can, and the utmost your machinery can do is to secure that the person who is wanted by the majority of those voting in preference to someone else should, as far as may be, come to the top of the poll. It is not peculiar to the alternative vote that you should have the difficulty that candidate A. has three planks in his platform, two of which you approve and the third of which you abominate, while B. and C. are a combination of good and bad. That is a condition of human nature, and neither one system nor another will completely get rid of that. Some people think it can be got rid of by a perfectly different method—proportional representation, to which I rather think the hon. Member is not unfriendly

Therefore, I submit there is a distinct evil here to face, and which should be got rid of if we can, and the evil is that, as things stand, you will get quite a number of constituencies misrepresented in this obvious sense, that at the very time they are choosing the person to represent them the person who is sent here to represent them does not receive the support—even the conditional or secondary support—of the majority of voters. If I were to take the constituency of 5,000 voters which the hon. Member for Westminster took as an illustration, I would suggest a case which is far more usual than the rather curious and artificial case that he proposed. The case that does happen, and the case that really does need meeting if we can, is this: A constituency in which 5,000 people vote, and in which the man at the bottom of the poll gets, perhaps, 500 or 600 votes—a person quite obviously who, under our system, as far as we can apply it to check opinion, does not really deserve to be returned—while the two persons who are above him are separated, it may be, by a mere matter of twenty or thirty votes. Surely it is a grotesque result that you should automatically take the man who happens to have obtained twenty or thirty more, without making the slightest effort to discover what would have happened if the man who had 600 had not been there and the people who voted for him had shown what their second choice would be. It is obvious that if he happened to die just before the election took place you would have a result quite different from the result there is when the man at the bottom of the poll gets this trumpery number of votes. That seems to be a misfortune and a defect, and, if that is so, is not this a method by which we could make that, I will not say perfect, but better? I say it is.

It is said that it encourages log-rolling. I am not sure about that. Certainly the argument is worth little if it contends indiscriminately that this will work in the same way as the second ballot. The two things are totally different, and the fundamental difference between them is this: In the case of the second ballot the logrolling takes place when the cards are on the table and everyone can calculate exactly what will be the effect of throwing his card into a different pool the second time round. That is the reason why second ballots—and I admit that experience shows that they very frequently result in corrupt practice—have that effect; but the great advantage of this method of trying to secure that the will of the majority will be expressed is that the whole thing takes place at one time, and just as the great argument for the secrecy of the ballot is that effective corruption is greatly minimised because you can never know what the voter is going to do, so with the alternative vote the same is true, although I am far from saying that there will not be attempts at arrangements. Does anyone imagine that we are living in a world where no such attempts are made? It is not a choice of living in a world where no one takes part in any arrangements, and living in a world where people will take, for the first time, to that evil course. The choice is between living under a system where, in a great number of constituencies, you do not get the man returned whom the majority of those voting indicate they would prefer and adopting a method by which this might be secured.

There is another observation to which I should like to refer The hon. and gallant Gentleman behind me said that if we lived in mid-Victorian times—I think I heard a sympathetic sigh from the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City (Sir F. Banbury) when that was said—we should feel that there was more to be said for this system than there is now. I should have thought the argument was the exact reverse of that. I do not know whether it is true to say there are three parties. I should have thought there might be more, and one may expect the time will come when our divisions will be quite different. But if it be conceded that there are more than two points of view which are sufficiently permanent and constant to be entitled to fair treatment, the moment you come to that then I should have thought to rely simply on finding out the choice of one out of three, and who comes out top, without having the slightest regard to how opinion is distributed between two and three, must be wrong. If you are dealing with a clear division of opinion, where everyone is

I will not deal with the observation, which I thought much the least important of the arguments used by the hon. Gentlemen who moved this Amendment, about ties. Clearly a system of this sort cannot be rejected or approved because somebody has a question to ask about what would happen if there was a tie, any more than because, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman behind me said, there was a member of the Speaker's Conference who was not there when it was carried. Those are not the arguments that can decide it. I urge that we ought to adopt this proposal, and that we ought to do so because it is aimed at what we all must feel to be a real evil. I suggest that it is the least objectionable of the methods to meet that evil, and that really it is not the case that it creates a whole crop of new and strange evils of its own hitherto undreamed of in our existing electoral institutions. I venture, in conclusion, to repeat this point: The great importance of doing this Kind of thing now, just as it is of great importance to secure redistribution now, is that we can all with a good conscience look forward and say that the future of domestic policy, the distribution of power, and the questions that will arise, are all things in the highest degree obscure and beyond prophecy. We are, therefore, justified in proceeding rather more on what some people regard as theoretical principles, endeavouring to construct a proper machine, and we can do it with a good heart because nobody can guess how a modification of this sort is going to work out so far as his own particular set of interests is concerned. That being so, I urge the Committee to keep this Sub-clause in the Bill. The Government, very naturally, I think, have said that they will leave this to the House. Whether that means that we shall get no guidance I do not know, but I hope not. If it is to be left to the House, my submission is that it is a Sub-clause which, on the whole, we ought to retain in order that we may address ourselves to an admitted evil by a method of solution which, on the whole, appears to me to be the best that can be devised.

The right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down was very emphatic about the evil that we had to redress. What was that evil? He expressed it himself. The evil was the representation of a minority. It is only a week or two ago that the right hon. Gentleman was standing in the same place and was arguing, with all that force of his which I am the first to acknowledge, in favour of proportional representation, on the ground that what he wanted was the representation of minorities. I have always had a great admiration for the right hon. Gentleman's forensic skill, but I must say that I have never had a higher admiration for it than I have after hearing him to-day.

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman says that, I may say that I have always had a great admiration for his sense of humour, and I assume this is an example of it.

Let us take this question of whether it is a great evil, or whether it is not—the representation of minorities. We have had an instance of it in this House. Surely you may say that in some cases it is an evil, and in some cases it is not an evil, but the number has not been, and is not likely to be, enough to make it, even if it could be called an evil, anything in the nature of a scandal. It is, after all, a small consideration. The number of cases in which this matter arises is not a very large one, and I think it is more than an open question whether we ought to make a change in our electoral system, a change which confuses the mind and puts difficulties in the way of conducting an election which did not exist before. While we are on this question of the minority candidate getting in, I think it ought to be borne in mind by hon. Members of this House that the most conspicuous instance we have had of a minority candidate getting in in recent years was that of President Wilson getting in on his first election for the Presidency. Does anyone look upon that as a very great evil?

5.0 P.M.

We have had a great number of conjectural figures given to us already, and I would like to put before the right hon. Gentleman some figures by which I think it is clear—at all events, it seems to me clear—that this system is not the complete remedy for the evil which he suggests. I have written these figures down because it is hard to be quite sure of getting them clear without I take the three old parties as they were before the War— Conservative, Liberal, and Labour. I take the votes recorded as 13,000, and I assume that Labour gets 6,000, that the Liberal gets 4,000, and that the Conservative gets 3,000. The Conservative is wiped out, and the second votes for the Conservative are added to one of the other two candidates. We are on common ground that that is the system to be adopted. The Liberals have given unanimously their second vote to the Labour man. The Conservatives have unanimously given their second votes to the Liberal. The Conservative is at the bottom of the poll, his votes are taken off, they go on to the Liberal, and the Liberal gets 7,000 to 6,000, and gets in. In that case the Liberal has not the majority of the first votes and has not a majority of the second votes, and yet he is returned. Put the figures the other way. Say that the Labour man still gets 6,000, the Conservative 4,000, and the Liberal 3,000. There the Liberals add their 3,000 to the Labour man, and Labour gets in. The result of that is that the Labour party, which was at the head of the poll, is to have its second string at the bottom of the poll, so that you get the rather curious condition that your second string supporters come out lowest. Surely that is Gilbertian. If you are going to conduct elections like that, surely when you have three candidates the simplest plan would be to toss odd man out, a method of deciding an election which is perfectly understood by everybody, at all events. Really, what I think is the argument of the right hon. Gentleman and the argument of all those who advocate the alternative vote is that what we want to do is to find out the most popular candidate, but the man who is least disliked. I want to put in a further point about this that particularly affects this Bill, and that is with regard to the absentee voters. According to the provisions of this Bill, we are going to have absentee voters whose numbers will be reckoned by millions. According to the Bill as it stands, many of them will be soldiers serving at the Front. In any case, we have to get these papers to the absent voters in the shortest possible time. They will be voting, if they vote at all, under difficult conditions. Surely we ought to make it as simple for them as we possibly can. Whatever else this principle of the alternative vote does, it adds complexity, and it is to a very great extent because at present our election system is simple, whatever else it is, that I want to avoid this complexity, and that I shall vote against the introduction of the alternative vote.

I wish to offer a word of explanation, because I was a member of the Conference, and when this question was before the Conference there was, as the Report says, a difference of opinion with regard to it. I on that occasion took the liberty of saying that I thought the introduction of the alternative vote would give rise to complications in our elections and lead to difficulties. I am still of that opinion. I think that when a constituency has the opportunity of making a selection, perhaps the safest all-round rule is to accept the man whom the majority of those voting, by their first preference, consider to be the best man to represent the constituency. If you permit the introduction of this new system, what you will have is this: you will have any amount of bargaining between the different interests in the constituencies. That is not in the interests of Liberalism, it is not in the interests of Conservatism, and, above all, it is not in the interests of Labour. I very much fear that the advantages of the introduction of this system would not go to any of the parties I have mentioned who wish to get straight and proper results, but would go to the man who could command the most money Therefore, in the interests of simplicity, in the interest of avoiding all possible kinds of combinations and corrupt influences, and with a view to preserving what we have while it works efficiently, I am opposed to the principle of the alternative vote.

I am, on the contrary, very strongly in favour of this proposal; and I want to say why in as few words as I can. I think my reasons are perhaps from a rather different point of view from those put forward by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon). I do not want to repeat the arguments he has used, but I do think, especially at this time, there is a very great danger indeed in not having some sort of proposal of this kind in the Bill. The Conference considered this question, and in considering all the methods of dealing with what I think is really an admitted evil, as my right hon. and learned Friend says, they came to the conclusion by a majority that this was the best way. I am strongly of opinion that this is a much better way than the second ballot. The second ballot does lead to those combinations after the first result, which have been found objectionable in many countries, and I think would be objectionable here. We are saying, no doubt quite frankly and sincerely, that parties will be rather different after the War. If we do not have a proposal like this in the Bill, in my opinion we are doing our best to stereotype the present parties and to make it impossible for any new party to arise. I do not think there is the slightest doubt about it, in spite of what the hon. Member for Leicester said, or is reported to have said—and I believe that to be an accurate representation of his views and the views held by the rather extreme section of the Labour party. I remember that the late Mr. Keir Hardie held and expressed the same views against the alternative vote and the second ballot. Their idea has always been that they would be entirely wiped out by a combination between the Conservative and Liberal parties. I do not think so. The hon. Member for Bridgewater (Colonel Sanders) says that this is a small question. I do not think it is. It may appear small to some people who do not follow election results, but I think it is really a very large question. The position here is very often that a candidate is adopted, not because he has been seriously considered, but because on the whole there is less chance of a split vote if he is adopted. Very often you get a case like a mining constituency, where there is a perfectly honest division of opinion as to whether they would be best represented by a direct representative of Labour or, as may be, they have been for some twenty years, by a Liberal. The question that comes up when an election approaches is not as to whether they can have a fair fight as to which shall represent that division, Liberal or Labour, but all the time there is pressure put from this side upon the Liberal, and from that side upon the Labour candidate—and it is generally upon the Labour candidate—to withdraw rather than split the vote and give the seat to the Conservative party.

I take that particular instance because we know perfectly well there is much more liability in progressive parties to split than in the Conservative party. It has always been so, and I am quite sure my right hon. Friends will bear me out in saying that during the whole time this question has arisen I do not think there has ever been an occasion where there have been two Conservatives in the field, except in two cases. In one of these cases there was a strong attack made, I think, upon the Free Trade views of a Conservative candidate, and in the other case case upon the moral character of a Conservative; and the Conservatives themselves ran a second candidate. We may find after the War that it will have a different effect altogether, but up to the present time it has always been the case that these split votes have favoured in all countries, I think, the Conservative party, or whatever it may be called in those countries. How can a new party—and we talk as though the old parties may be worn out after this War—how can a new party ever get into its stride at all under a system like the present one? I cannot see how they can ever do it. It is a matter of the greatest possible difficulty to-day for any man to stand independently of the party machine in any constituency; but immediately you have got this choice, see what happens. Let us take an ordinary case like a mining constituency. There you have no difficulty at all. The miners say they want to run a man, and the Liberals and Conservatives also run their own candidates. As Liberals and Labour are nearer together than Conservative or Liberal or Conservative and Labour, then the probability is that the Liberals will advise their supporters to give their second vote to Labour, and Labour will advise their supporters to give their second vote to the Liberal. That is bound to be done, and you cannot do that in an underground way. Is not that really the proper result, if there should be a combination at all—that there should be a combination between the parties which are nearest one another, rather than that the party which is farthest away from both should get in? It seems to me you are going to give a real Labour party in this country no chance at all if you go on under the present system.

We are told that the new system would give greater power to the party machine. I am always a little sceptical about that, and I should like to know whether the party machines have done much to advocate the introduction of this measure. I do not think the party machine on either side wants to do much to secure independence, and I do not think the party machine on either side is particularly anxious that this particular proposal should be carried at all. But I am not concerned in that at all. I want to continue my argument about the Labour party. I have spoken to certain Members of this House who have always been Liberals, and I am surprised to find that they do not favour this system of the alternative Vote, which has always seemed to me the best system that could be devised for getting fair representation. The reason they give entirely reinforces my argument, because they say that under the alternative vote they would be squeezed out. What they mean is that under the present system they are able to say, when there is a project to run a Labour candidate, "Do not do that or you will lose the seat to the other party," and therefore very many Labour candidates do not run. you have only to remember the results of the two General Elections in 1910, when all the split votes, I think, at the second election were arranged in the meantime, and practically there were only about one or two cases where there were split votes. This is a small matter if one looks at it superficially, but if one looks to see what is happening behind the scenes there is case after case where men have been prevented from standing merely from fear of giving the seat to other parties. There have been many cases where the Labour party would have liked to run a man, and ought to have run a man, but have refrained from doing it rather than give the seat to a party which they thought was more out of sympathy with them than was the Liberal party.

And so you have an arrangement which as extremely unfair to a new party, and I think after the War will be extremely dangerous, because if you are not going to give the Labour party after the War a fair chance of getting larger representation without having to make arrangements here and there with either the Liberal or Conservative or any other party—if you are not going to give them a chance of getting representation which is really reflective of the numbers behind them in the country—I think you are going to have a Parliament much more largely composed of Liberals and Conservatives than it ought to be and you are going to have a very dangerous undercurrent of unrepresented labour. I think they will say rightly, in spite of the fact that some of their more extreme members are against the alternative vote, that they were squeezed out by an arrangement of the two propertied parties. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] That is not my argument, but that is the argument that will certainly be used if we get rid of the only possible means by which a new Labour party, or a new party of any sort, can come to real growth. I think you are going to have a very dangerous position, and they will certainly use the argument—and I do not say altogether without justice—that they are not given a fair chance under the electoral system with this constant repetition of having to get a seat here and there by bargaining. It seems to me the position at present is that you are often getting minority representation, and that you would very much oftener get it but for arrangements behind the scenes. I think, when you are considering the development of this country after the War and the possibility of entirely new parties growing up, that everything should be done to make the choice of the electors as free as possible and everything should be done to encourage the growth of individual opinion and independent candidates. It seems to me that there is an absolute danger that the present system will root out the independent candidate altogether. Let a man to-day differ in any way from the officials of his party, and if they choose to run against him another official candidate they can again and again deprive the independent man of his seat under the present system. Whereas if there were the alternative vote the mere taking away from him, say, 500 or 1,000 votes would not have that effect at all. I think the alternative vote will certainly make for far greater independence, but I do not think it will go to the lengths one would like in getting more independent representation.

Far from increasing the wire-pullers, it would certainly make them less influential. It would get rid of a very real evil, but far above those reasons is the one of which I have spoken, for it seems to me that if you are going to keep the present system no new party can ever arise unless they are strong enough to sweep the country and practically win against a combination of the two other great parties. To throw out this proposal would be reactionary, and it would be taken as an attempt to keep any new party out of the field. After the War I think such a combination would be extremely dangerous, and now that we are settling this thing, we might settle it on broad lines, and at any rate get rid of what has been a real evil in our electoral system.

After listening to the very able speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) I understand why it was reported that at the Speaker's Conference the right hon. Gentleman had such a very great influence in shaping the recommendations of that Conference. I entirely agree with him that the present system is not perfect. What we want to satisfy ourselves about is that if we alter the present system we must make it more perfect than it is at the present time. The right hon. Gentle- man endeavoured to show that this alternative vote would be an improvement, but in my opinion he certainly failed to prove that argument. The Speaker's Conference endeavoured to get over a certain number of definite difficulties, and in attempting to do so they put forward two what I may call freak proposals, one being proportional representation which received its death-blow from the President of the Local Government Board, and which I hope we shall not hear anything further of; and the other the present proposal of the alternative vote. The right hon. Gentleman told us that this was a practical matter. I agree with him, but in his speech he did not deal with it in a very practical way. I think the present Debate has shown that whatever evils exist under the present arrangement, they will exist under the arrangement of the alternative vote to a greater extent than they do at present.

Britons, and especially Englishmen, like a fair fight, and when there are three or four or more candidates who have fairly fought the matter out at the poll, it is, in my opinion, very much more satisfactory that the electors, whether they voted for the man at the top of the poll or the other candidates, to know that the man who is returned at the top goes to represent that constituency at Westminster, without having to go through after the election certain mathematical arrangements, and an examination of papers to see what is to be the second or third alternative. Therefore, in my opinion, this proposal has all the defects that everyone knows second ballots have. We could have had second ballots in this country many years ago if the majority of the people had thought the second ballot system was a good one. We all know the drawbacks that have been found in the countries which have the second ballot system, but we have yet to learn from practical experience what will be the drawback of the alternative vote.

We were told that in second ballots there was bargaining after the first Ballot, but at least it was open bargaining. Personally, I am not in favour of second ballots; but if you are going to have another system, I would rather have it openly. Under this system there will be the same amount of bargaining, but it will be secret and done underhand, and not in the same open way as it would be with second ballots. The hon. Member for Norfolk (Mr. Hemmerde) said if this alternative vote was not adopted there would not be given an opportunity to a new party of being represented in this House. What has been the experience of the last few years? Has there been any dearth of different parties in this House? Certainly, the criticism of the present arrangement has not been that there are not sufficient parties in this House to air the reasonable opinions of all sections of the country. I agree with the point put forward by the hon. Member for Bridge-water (Colonel Sanders), that if this scheme is adopted it will still further add to the difficulties of the absent voter to whom it is proposed we should now give the opportunity of voting. For all these reasons I strongly oppose this proposal, and I hope the Committee will not carry it.

There is one argument which I think has not been used, but it is of the greatest importance. It is that only the papers of the candidate who drops out are examined for the second preferences. The consequence is that the system is wholly faulty. Again, wherever this system has been in force it has been found that not more' than 50 per cent, of the electors record their votes. If you take into account these two flaws, you take away practically every merit claimed for this system. Already the principle of proportional representation has been defeated, greatly to the satisfaction of the public and the majority of this House, and now an effort is being made to bring in another example of the same system. I am strongly opposed to this proposal, and I shall vote against it.

It is because proportional representation has been dropped out that this particular proposal becomes all the more necessary. The Conference recommended that proportional representation should take place in certain parts of the country, but the greater part of the country was to retain its system of single member constituencies, and therefore it became necessary to provide a method whereby the majority of the voters should be represented. The hon. and gallant Member for Enfield (Major Newman) has suggested that the members of the Conference, or some of them, did not know what they were doing. I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that that suggestion is quite incorrect, for they knew very well what they were doing, and the proof of that is to be found in the fact that we had a fairly close Division upon this very subject. The whole reason why this proposal is put forward is that we felt we were bound to map out a really good system whereby the opinion of the majority could be obtained all over the country, and it may become more and more important to have some system which will secure that result. We have got along up to the present with two great parties, but the probability is that that system will come to an end, and that we shall find two or three or four great parties in all our constituencies, fairly equally divided, and we should find that the evil which exists at the present moment under which a man is returned by a minority of the inhabitants of the place, would be continued. This is no new proposal emanating from the Conference. This question of the alternative vote has been very minutely investigated by a Royal Commission which sat in 1910, and it reported very fully upon all the methods of election that were brought before it. One of the earliest observations they made was when they were dealing with what is known as the absolute majority system. They say:

"This system which is the one which holds good now has the most serious defect with which any method of election can be charged. In a contingency which has grown common it permits the return of the least popular candidate."

That is what happens now in triangular contests. My hon. and gallant Friend opposite said that it was the least disliked person who got in, but at the present moment the most disliked person gets in during a triangular contest. This Royal Commission went into the question very carefully and they say

"That the failure of the present system and the necessity of reforming it were urged upon us strongly by the representatives of party organisations on both sides."

Therefore, in this country the representatives of both parties recommended the institution of some system which would remedy the evil of the minority being represented and the majority not represented. They say that all reasonable requirements will be satisfied by a system which will substitute an acceptable measure of justice for the present indefensible anomaly, and of the schemes suggested only two have any serious claim to be considered for use on a large scale. They then discussed the second ballot and the alternative vote. I will just quote a few sentences of what they say with regard to the alternative vote. After having described the objections to, the second ballot, they say:

"The alternative vote, therefore, appears at first sight to fulfil the necessary conditions. The defects of the relative majority are remedied without practical difficulty. It is accordingly not surprising to find that it has converted to its support nearly all the former advocates of the second ballot; and in fact it was almost unanimously recommended to us by men of wide practical experience and diverse political opinions whom we consulted. On the other hand, the verdict of Queensland and Western Australia based upon experience was one of duly qualified approval."

They discuss very fully the objections, some of which have been raised this afternoon and some of which have not, to the proposed alternative vote, and they say this:

"We have set out these objections in full, if not at undue length, because it is desirable that no more should be expected from the system than it is able to give. But, when all due weight has been given to them, the alternative vote remains the best method of removing the most serious defect which a single-member constituency can present—the return of minority candidates and accordingly we recommend its adoption in single-member constituencies."

That recommendation forms part of a unanimous report.

Yes, that recommendation was for the whole of the country. It was based upon the opinions of persons in this country and upon reports from the Colonies and elsewhere where the system has been in existence and has worked fairly well. It is impossible to devise any system which will be perfect, but if you want to get rid of a system under which it is possible by running three or four candidates to get a man returned to Parliament by the minority of the electors, then this is the best way. The alternative vote is the system least open to objection, and it has been proved in practice to be the one most easily adapted to the conditions of large constituencies.

I do not think that you can say that, because in the ultimate counting of the votes the man who wins will have the majority of the persons who voted behind him. Some of them will have said, "I wish that man to be elected." It is quite true that others will have said, "I would rather have Jones than Smith, but if Jones cannot be elected then I prefer Smith." Smith gets in with the knowledge that there are a certain number who like him above all, and others, who, knowing that they cannot get the other man, say that they will have him. Therefore, he has behind him the good wishes of the majority of the voters. That is the utmost that he can hope to obtain. I hope that we shall support this recommendation of the Conference.

The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has tried to coerce our judgment by reading the Report of the Commission. We did not hear what the Commission had to say for and against this particular proposal. We only heard their conclusions. I confess, therefore, that, to my mind, the Report carries no weight. We are here to-day to decide the question on its merits, and we are not to be overborne by the opinion of any Commission without hearing the arguments on one side or the other. I am not going to imitate the example of the hon. Member for Norfolk (Mr. Hemmerde), who devoted the greater part of his speech to a consideration of the question as to how far this new proposal would benefit a particular party. That is the last question that ought to enter into the decision of the issue now before us. We are reforming our electoral system, and to tell me that I must accept a particular proposal because it will benefit a particular party or injure another party is one of the very worst arguments which could be presented to my mind. If anyone were trying to devise a scheme under which you would have a thoroughly confusing, artificial, and mischievous method of election he would find it difficult to beat the scheme before us. It is artificial and confusing because it will have the strange result, not in isolated cases, but in a large number of cases, that the man who beats all his opponents in the field, and who may beat them by a very large majority indeed, will not be elected, but will find himself beaten in the long run, owing to this artificial trick, by a man who in the first instance perhaps got very little more than half the votes that he received. I am not sure that it might not be the man at the bottom of the poll who would win. The thing is worked out so little in the Bill that it is impossible to say what strange results might not happen. Let me take one illustration. The right hon. Gentleman said that it would be impossible for a man who polled less than half the votes polled to get in under this alternative vote system. It would be perfectly easy for him to do so, because unless everyone exercised their second choice it would be easy for men who got the majority of votes in the first instance—I mean more votes than anyone else—to find himself beaten by a man who got a minority of the total number of votes polled.

I pass to what I conceive to be the real objections in substance to this scheme. I take the argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), who spoke in its favour, because if any man could give a colour of plausibility to this scheme he could. He said that, in the first instance, there is a great and admitted evil. I entirely deny it. He said that it is a terrible evil that when you have three candidates, A., B., and C, that A. should get in although he does not get an actual majority of the votes polled. Why should he not get in? The man has handsomely beaten the only other two candidates in the field, and it is quite evident from the voting that more voters in the constituency wish A. to get in than voters wish either B. or C. to get in. If that is so, why should not A be returned? It may very-well be under this scheme that a man who gets little more than half the votes of A. may find himself the duly elected member of the constituency against the wishes of the majority of those who voted. That is not all. Let me assume that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is right and that there is some evil in our present system of voting where there are three candidates contesting a single seat. I suggest that the remedy he proposes is very much greater than the evil which he desires to remove. The most absurd results in many cases would follow from this scheme. My hon. Friend the Member for Westminster (Mr. Burdett-Coutts) gave one, and my hon. Friend the Member for Somerset (Colonel Sanders) gave another illustration of what I call real certainties. Let me give one more. Let me take the case which my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster gave, where 5,000 votes are given in an election. A. gets 2,400, B. gets 1,600, and C. gets 1,000. Let us suppose that by the alternative vote A. brings his total up to 2,500, and B. under the transfer gets 2,501. B., therefore gets in, and the man who has handsomely thrashed all his opponents in the first round by 800 votes is beaten by this trick transfer of votes. That really is almost reductio absurdum, and it is not a case by any means improbable.

Let me now come to the last point in this discussion, to which most ingeniously the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow gave a smaller amount of consideration than to any other point in his speech. I mean the question of log-rolling and corrupt bargaining, because that is the vital objection to the scheme. The right hon. and learned Gentleman did not for a moment deny that there would be log-rolling and corrupt bargaining, but he attempted to get round it by that ingenious method which anyone with his subtlety of intellect would have adopted. He tried to make out that things might be worse. In the first place, he said, "Ah, yes, it is bad enough to have logrolling under this scheme, but think how much worse it would be under the second ballot." I do not care whether it is worse under the second ballot or not. I do not want either system. I do not want either log-rolling under this scheme or under the second ballot, and I am not prepared to discuss whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman is right in saying that logrolling is worse under the second ballot. Even if he proves that it is ten times worse, it is no gratification for upsetting our existing system in order to introduce a system which he himself admits will bring in log-rolling. Then he resorts to another answer to this argument against him, which, of course, he felt was the real pinch. "Ah, yes," he said, "true it is that it would bring in logrolling, but are there no evils in our present system?" That seems to me hardly an argument worthy of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. The upshot of it is that he suggests vaguely that we have evils and that therefore we might as well go to something which we have not tried but which will probably be worse. If we have log-rolling already, and I am afraid that we have in some cases, why should we increase it? Why should we introduce a system which will be absolutely certain to multiply it fourfold? We all know that in this country and in all other countries, if you have a system of log-rolling in electoral matters, the men who get the benefit are the men who have the largest purse and the smallest conscience. Are those the people whom you intend to benefit? Such evils as result from the present system are minor evils. They do not exist largely, and they occur rarely. On the other hand, the unquestionable evils of corrupt bargaining, and corrupt bargaining by those whom it is most dangerous to trust with that instrument would be largely increased. I hope, therefore, that we shall not rush headlong into this new and untried scheme and thereby introduce a new danger into our electoral system.

I only desire to ask a question. We will presume a constituency in which the Conservatives are in the minority, if you take the Liberal and Labour people as being of more or less one mind. It does not at all follow that the Labour man dislikes the Conservative more than the Liberal, although that apparently has been the argument followed all through this Debate. It seemed to have been taken for granted that if a Conservative got in owing to their having been a Labour candidate, the Labour man would regret that result and would have preferred the Liberal. I am not at all sure that that is correct, and in many cases I should say it was the reverse of the fact. Say there is a constituency and an election, and the Conservative is in a minority, if you consider the Liberal and the Labour people as practically representing the same view. There are three candidates, a Conservative, a. Liberal, and a representative of Labour. We are told that the Conservatives have all the money. What is to prevent the Conservative association saying, "We have got all the money; we will run a second Conservative candidate. The cost does not matter very much, and we will arrange for a certain number of our men to give their second vote to the second Conservative candidate." The consequence will be that the Conservative's return is assured. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Why not? I may be wrong, but what is the position according to the definition?

"The expression 'transferable vote' means a vote The first Conservative candidate, whom we will call Smith, does not have the total number of votes given to him. The second Conservative candidate has a rather less number of votes given to him, and then the two are added together. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"]

The first Conservative candidate would have got those votes if there had not been a second Conservative candidate.

We will say that Jones is the second Conservative candidate. It is arranged that the people who support Jones shall give their second vote to Smith, because it is intended that Smith shall get in. You need not call him a Conservative; you can call him anything you like, but Jones's votes are added to Smith's.

The second candidate takes away votes from the first, and Smith might just as well have had them given to him on the first vote.

That was how it was put to me just now. I have worked it out, and I cannot see that it makes any difference. Perhaps my hon. Friend will explain where I am wrong.

I quite agree with the right hon. Baronet, who is generally correct, in his opposition to the alternative vote, but I cannot see what good it would do his one Conservative candidate to have a second Conservative candidate, who will take many votes away from the first. It will not do any good to the second by taking them away from the first.

I see what my hon. Friend means, but I venture to say that that does not result. Suppose there are 6,000 Conservatives in a constituency. One thousand vote for Jones, who is the second candidate, and the other 5,000 vote for the first Conservative candidate, and they put their second preference to the other man. I see now that they do not gain anything by it. I can only say this was put to me by a Member of this House, and we worked it out together and it seemed to come out all right.

I voted against proportional representation, but it does not follow that because one did that he should also vote against the alternative vote. I look at the alternative vote in this way. If you start with the proposition that a representative of a division shall have a majority of the votes in that division, that is to say, that he shall have the votes of the majority of the people in that division—[HON. MEMBERS: "We do not!"] Well, if you do not start with that proposition, let me put this consideration, that if there are four can didates a man might be representing the division although he only received one-third of the total votes. The fair thing and the first object to secure is that the representative should have a majority of the votes of the division. There are two ways at which that can be arrived at. This would be the fair way. If you start with four candidates you may, by a process of elimination, knock off the fourth, then have an election for the three; knock off the third, and then have an election between the two; and in the end you would get to the man who had the real backing of the constituency behind him. But by that method there would have to be three elections and three times the amount of expense. The alternative vote does all that in the one election. It saves the three elections and gets at the same result.

No, that is the alternative vote. In the end, you get the man who will have the majority of the votes in that division. The thing is quite simple and need not confuse anybody. It seems to be a fair, reasonable and easy method, and I intend to support it.

A great deal has been said in the Debate about the evil of these three-cornered elections. It is eminently desirable that we should understand how they operate. I have had figures taken out for me to-day dealing with the General Elections in January, 1910, and December, 1910. I have eliminated from that list one or two cases in which candidates holding the same views stood against each other. In January, 1910, there were thirty-eight three-cornered contests, the results of which were that seven Unionists were returned, thirty-one Liberals and no Labour men. In the election of December, 191.0, the number of such contests was reduced to fifteen, two Unionists were returned, thirteen Liberals, and no Labour men. If you assume, as some hon. Members have assumed to-day, that we had log-rolling in these elections, and that I do not say corrupt bargaining, but bargaining of some kind had taken place between the various parties, and if you had had the alternative vote, in these cases where there was a Liberal and Labour compact, instead of seven Unionists being returned, only one Unionist would have been returned, instead of thirty-six Liberals there would have been thirty-six returned, and one Labour representative would have been returned. On the other hand, if the Labour party and the Unionists had had a compact, twenty-four Unionists would have been returned, eleven Liberals, and three Labour members. When you come to the December election, you find that instead of two Unionists, thirteen Liberals and no Labour members being returned, with the Liberal and Labour compact you would have had one Unionist and fourteen Liberals, and in the event of a Labour and Unionist compact you would have had eleven Unionists instead of two, three Radicals instead of thirteen and one Labour representative. In those two General Elections there were only fifty-three of these cases, which is not a very startling number, considering that we have 670 members in this House, and they do not form a good and sufficient reason for importing into our electoral system the principle of the alternative vote.

I am surprised that those who argue in favour of the transferable vote should put it on the same plane as the alternative vote, which will lead to possibly different results and must lead to log-rolling and corrupt bargaining in every Constituency where there is a narrow majority, whether of Liberal or Conservative opinion. Would the case of a man who gets in by fifty or 150 votes be left alone under that system? Certainly not. All sorts of bargaining would take place, and the last state would be ten thousand times worse than the first. You are trying here to reach what is altogether unobtainable—a perfect system of elections. You cannot attain it either by the alternative or the transferable vote. The transferable vote is altogether a much better system. Of course, even a second ballot might lead to some kind of corrupt bargaining, but there would not be the same chance for it as there would be in the case of the alternative vote. It would be fairer and straighter, because two candidates would be put up against each other. However, I do not think the evil is great enough to be dealt with in this sort of way. I hope the Committee will take out this Subsection, which will lead to the gravest possible dangers. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) has gone. I do not think he would be a very capable organiser. He seems to think that the second choice is as good as the first, but I do not think that he would find that so. I object to this proposal, because it is an unfortunate system which would certainly lead to the greatest possible corrupt bargaining and to log-rolling to an enormous degree.

I hope the Committee will allow me in a few sentences to support the Sub-section as it stands, although I am not in a position to indulge the Committee with very strong language for or against it. Prophecies of corruption, although they come from the most adroit and well-informed members of this Committee, can only be dealt with by believing or disbelieving them. Personally they leave me without any additional help in deciding this matter. The Committee has listened to the facts of the 1910 elections as stated by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger). What do they show? They show that if you had had the alternative vote there would have been considerable alterations in the returns, alterations which, if I heard him correctly, would have been to the advantage at that time of the Conservative party. Why should they not be? This is not an argument for the benefit of any party or against the benefit of any party; it merely shows that this proposal would have had an appreciable effect upon the returns at that General Election.

There, again, we get into the realm of lurid prophecy, which suits my hon. Friend much less than his other role of a compiler of electoral statistics. Why should it follow that the alternative vote will always be exercised with a view to a bargain, and that a corrupt one? I do not accept that way of looking at it. It seemed to those of us who sat on the Speaker's Conference that it was our duty to try to make such changes in the electoral system as would tend to make it a still more accurate reflex of what the voters desired to bring about. I support this on two grounds: First of all in regard to the voter. Is it or is it not desirable that the voter should be in a position to say not only which of the candidates he wants elected if possible by an out-and-out majority, but what other candidates he would prefer to support if his own particular choice has no chance of becoming his member? By the alternative vote you give the voter a greater voice in the election, and I want to give to every voter, whatever his political views, the maximum of influence in the election in order that the result so obtained may have the maximum of authority.

Then with regard to the other point. What about the member? We are not dealing here with the vast majority of members who have hitherto represented, and we hope always will represent, a majority of the votes cast at their election. We are dealing with the alternative between the man who comes here with only a minority of votes cast for him and a man who under the alternative vote comes here with the acquiescence and consent of an actual majority of those who vote for him. It is not accurate, as the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Butcher) says, that under this proposal a candidate may be returned against the majority of the votes cast. That is impossible. [Interruption.] Very well, I will take the other version, although I took the hon. and learned Gentleman's word down. It is not accurate that he will be returned against a majority of the electors. That also is impossible, for he can only be returned under the alternative vote if an actual majority of the electors have in one form or other indicated at least their acquiescence in his return, and therefore the alternative is between a member elected by a minority and a member who has the acquiescence in that form of the majority. Which is in the public interest, that a man should come here representing only a minority, or that a man should come here with the added acquiescence which he would have under the alternative vote? If a man represents a minority, and only a minority, his connection with his constituency is far slighter and far more exclusively partisan than it is in any other case; but if a man comes here returned partly by those who agree with him altogether and also by the acquiescence of others who do not agree with him primarily, that man comes here in a far less partisan position, and is far more likely to be in close touch with his constituency and to have every legitimate inducement to moderation of temper and judgment in this House. It certainly struck all of us who served on Mr. Speaker's Conference that it would be well for the country to diminish and not to increase the Quantum of party spirit at elections; and the very fact that that induced many of us to support proportional representation, as tending to diminish the acuteness of party feeling, in the same way, led many of them to support this alternative vote, because, in place of a Member of Parliament returned on a mere party ticket by a minority of electors, you would have, what I submit to be preferable, a man returned with greater ties with his constituency and with a greater inducement to take a moderate view of the business transacted in the House of Commons. Therefore, on those two grounds, that it gives the voter greater influence and puts the Member elected in a better position, I support the Clause as it stands, without any reference and without any knowledge as to its electoral effect upon any school of thought or any political party, but solely because it seems to me that if we are going to alter our electoral system we should do it as far as possible so as to make it a reflex of the public and to hinder and not help the extreme developments of party action.

We have already had a very interesting and full Debate upon what I agree is a question of importance, but, after all, only one out of a good many questions which we have to determine. The Government desires to leave the matter entirely to the free judgment of the House. This recommendation of Mr. Speaker's Conference was adopted by a majority only, and therefore, following the rule which we have followed in other cases, we do not desire in the least to fetter the judgment of hon. Members. Having said that, I want to take advantage of the freedom which is given to us all, and to say why it is that, although when I first introduced the Bill I took no strong line upon this matter, having listened to the arguments I propose to vote for the Amendment. My position is this. I do not think it very important, because, after all, the result of the present system is that the Candidate whose membership is desired by the greatest number of voters in the election is elected and becomes the member for the place. At the same time I agree that sometimes when there are two candidates representing one party, having more votes taken together than the candidate who gets in and who represents another party, one feels that the majority of the electors in the constituency are not represented. It is an evil, though not a very serious one. But the point is this. Have those who recommend this matter found the true remedy for the difficulty? Have they found the best way out? I look entirely at the arguments used in favour of the Subsection, and I do not find that anyone has said that this is really a good solution of the difficulty that is presented to us. They have damned it with faint praise, and I notice that the Royal Commission on Electoral Reform, though, on the whole, recommending this expedient, were careful to say that in their view a really satisfactory solution of the problem had yet to be devised. That impresses me very much, because I think if we have not found a really satisfactory answer we ought to take a little more time to see whether we cannot find a better solution.

In the Report of that Commission there are two other things which more than anything else have moved me in suspending my judgment, at all events, and not voting for this Sub-section. One is this. They point out, what we all know, that if you adopt this provision you do greatly increase the number of candidates at an election. This is how they put it: hope of being returned, but in the hope that by means of his second choices he and his friends will be able to make some bargain—I do not say a corrupt bargain at all—by means of which he will tie the successful candidate to something that he himself desires and which that candidate does not. There is a very real risk of that. I only want to quote one other passage from the Report of the Royal Commission. They said this:

An HON. MEMBER: That is the second ballot.

No; this is the alternative vote.

"In considering such possibilities it is well to recollect that in this system, as in the second ballot, whenever two candidates of one party are left in the final struggle, the destination of the seat will be decided by the second vote of the opposing party: and. further, that a second vote will be regarded by many more lightly and used less politically than the first."

If that Commission, which I agree presented a very valuable Report, while adopting the expedient now before the Committee was not able to give it anything like a real measure of support, and was bound to point out defects so real and so serious as those to which I have called attention, I think, while saying nothing as to the future, as to what may happen when we have had some trial of the new system of election, we ought to hesitate before adopting this expedient to-day. We ought to exercise caution. We shall have at the next election a very large number of new electors. It is very-desirable that the system under which they will vote shall be as simple and as easily understood as is possible. A system which deceived so great an authority as my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) and which even he did not fully understand, is surely likely to produce a certain amount of confusion. One must admit, although it may well be exaggerated, that there will be a certain amount of complexity, and for that reason, as well as for the more serious reasons which I have endeavoured to put, my own judgment—and I have endeavoured to arrive at an impartial decision, as far as one can in this House—is that, upon the whole, the Committee will do best not to adopt this Sub-section to-day, but to see how we get on under the new system, and then it will be quite open to us, after a, year or two, if we think it right, to introduce it.

I shall endeavour to follow the example of the right hon. Gentleman in the brevity of my remarks upon this question, because it has been thrashed out in the Debate we have had this afternoon. In all other respects I am afraid I fail to follow him. I agree with him that a system of the alternative vote has some disadvantages. I think the system has yet to be devised, either with regard to elections or with regard to any other affairs which is free from disadvantages. In all these matters we have to take the balance, and to see whether the evils attached to the remedy for the evil, which the right hon. Gentleman admits, are greater than those which attach to the evil itself. The right hon. Gentleman laid proper weight upon the Report of the Royal Commission representing all parties which was set up seven years ago to inquire into these very matters, which took a great deal of evidence, which minutely examined all the electoral systems of other countries, and which, it is true, pointed out on the one hand the disadvantages of the alternative vote, which the right hon. Gentleman quoted, but on the other hand pointed out with greater emphasis the disadvantages of the existing system, and came at the end to the definite conclusion that the system of the alternative vote ought to be adopted. That is the one positive, substantive, recommendation of that important Royal Commission. The difficulties of our present situation arise really from the fact that at every election there are great questions before the electorate and minor questions. There are urgent questions and more remote questions and bodies of voters which are at one on the great question, or the urgent question may be divided among themselves on lesser questions or more remote questions, and so divided that they cannot agree upon a single candidate. The result is that their vote is split, and that a member who does not represent the constituency on the great and the urgent questions is in fact returned to Parliament. That is the great evil of the system which we all know and which we are seeking to remedy.

The right hon. Gentleman has said, "Let us postpone this matter for a while, let us see how the new system works, and consider it again after a period of years." But the other provisions of this Bill make, this evil likely to be greater than it has been before and the remedy more urgent, for the very reason that it reduces the candidate's election expenses and so removes one of the great obstacles to the multiplicity of candidates. Therefore, the effect of this Bill is likely to be that you will have many more contests in which there are a number of candidates, instead of the old simple issue between only two candidates. The right hon. Gentleman has suggested, as other speakers who have opposed this plan have done, that there will be what is called "corrupt bargains." That is to say, arrangements between different parties as to the allocation of votes. In the first place, as was pointed out very ably by the right hon. Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) in his persuasive speech, it is folly to assume that there is no such thing now as an arrangement between parties. It does not take the form of an arrangement that first preferences should be given to this man and second preferences to another, because first and second preferences do not exist, but there are, as we all know, from time to time, understandings that a candidate of one party shall be run for this seat and shall not be run for that seat, and that a candidate of the other party should be run in that seat and not run in this seat. If an arrangement is to be arrived at between party organisations it is upon those lines that it will be made. This arrangement, if it is to be made between leaders of parties and between party organisations, will be made without the matter coming fully to the knowledge of the whole electorate. If you have a system of alternative votes any arrangement must depend upon the action of the voter himself. The voters are not automata. They will not give their second preference unless they think, on the whole, it is the proper thing to do. They will listen to what the party leaders say and will exercise their judgment. There can only be something in the nature of advice given to a large number of individual electors, which advice the electors may or may not accept as they prefer. The essential purpose of this proposal, as it appears to me, is obviously right. It is to enable the voter to say: "Here are three candidates, A, B. and C, seeking my suffrage. I should like to see A. elected, and I mean to vote for A., but if I cannot get A. elected, I would rather have B. than C., or I would rather have C. than B. I will exercise my vote, by giving my first preference for A., and I will also state on the ballot paper that if A. gets a minority of votes, then as between B. and C, I prefer B." I cannot see any reason of logic why that should be regarded as an improper arrangement. On the other hand, it appears to me to be absolutely right. To tell the man: "You may vote either for A., B., or C, but if A. is not elected, you are to have no choice between B. and 0., and must submit to be represented in Parliament by a man who, above all others, you would wish not to represent you, and with whom you disagree fundamentally on all the main issues of politics," is quite an indefensible position. The hon. Member for Enfield (Major Newman) said that the effect of the proposed arrangement would be that B. would get a certain number of first and second preferences, a large number of persons having given their first preferences to A., and that B. would come to Parliament, and would represent a large number of persons who really would have preferred somebody else. That really is not so, because people who have given their first preference to A. and their second preference to B., though they did not want B. in Parliament in the first instance, give him their second preference because, in the main, they think he is not an unsuitable representative in the absence of their first choice. There is no compulsion to give a second preference, and. no one would come to this House feeling that he had got votes, whether by first or second preference, from persons who really did not wish him to represent them in Parliament.

The hon. Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) gave statistics showing the result of three-cornered contests at recent General Elections. I have figures showing the result at recent by-elections. I will not go into the difference between Liberal and Unionist parties, but simply show the effect on the labour representation. At the first General Election of 1910 there were thirty-eight three-cornered fights, at which labour representatives were candidates. At the General Election of December, 1910, there were seventeen three-cornered fights, at fourteen of which Labour or Socialist candidates stood. At by-elections since 1910 there have been twenty-four three-cornered contests, at twenty-three of which Labour or Socialist candidates stood. There were a total of seventy-five three-cornered contests at these two General Elections and the subsequent by-elections, at which Labour or Socialist candidates stood, and in not one single case out of these seventy-five contests was a Labour or a Socialist candidate representative returned. That cannot be right. I think the reason is partly this, that in a large number of cases persons who really would have liked to see a Labour representative returned did not vote for him because they did not wish to split what was called the progressive vote. Therefore, they did not support the Labour candidate, although in their hearts they would have preferred to see a Labour candidate returned than anyone else. In the case where the alternative vote prevails, that limitation would be removed, and the elector would be free to vote for such a candidate. That, I think, is the chief reason, or one reason, why the Labour candidates were not returned.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say in how many cases the Labour candidate was second?

The people did not vote for him because they did not want to run the great risk of the party of the hon. and gallant Member capturing the seat. With the alternative vote in operation you cannot assume that first preferences will be given exactly as the single vote is given now. I believe that if parties resume their old shape after the War, the main advantage of the alternative vote will really accrue to the Labour party. Whether that is so or not, we have to consider how best we can secure in this House a real reflection of the mind of the electorate. It is because I believe the alternative vote will enable us to do that that I shall vote in favour of it. The Home Secretary says: "We ought not to introduce a new complexity into our electoral methods at a time when so many voters are away from home, and when simplicity in electoral arrangements is very desirable. To this system of the alternative vote the complexities of proportional representation do not attach. It is a very simple task that the voter has to perform. If three candidates are before him—we do not anticipate that there will be three-cornered contests in all the seats or even in the majority of the seats—all that he has got to do is to put I against the man of his first choice and 2 against the man of his second choice. Surely it will not be difficult to explain to the electorate, scattered though they may be, that this is all they have to do. Even if they did not wish to do that, not having realised the change that Parliament has made, if they put a cross against one candidate, I presume that the vote will not be spoiled, but that the rules would allow that vote to count as a first preference. There would be no second preference, but the elector in that case would exercise his vote in exactly the same way and with exactly the same results. For these reasons I hope the Committee will retain the Sub-section in the Bill.

Most right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who have discussed this subject seem to have been speaking of imaginary cases. They have mentioned hypothetical candidates—A., B., and C, visionary Smith, Brown, Jones, and so on. A few of them have been through the rough and tumble of an election in which not only three, but possibly four, candidates have gone to the poll. I have gone through that experience. The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders), who we are all delighted to hear, has spoken. What does he know about such anxieties? He sits for a Somersetshire seat, and wherever he stood in Somersetshire they would be sure to return him. If he said 2 and 2 make 5— and I dare say he did if he is a Tariff Reformer—he would come here just the same. He knows nothing about the real anxieties of such fights as are involved when three or four candidates stand for one constituency. My first experience was in the Jarrow Division of Durham. Four candidates went to the poll—Liberal, Tory, Labour, and Irish Nationalist. The Irish Nationalist was at the bottom of the poll in the end, but he was not a man of straw, because he polled more than 2,000 votes, and there were almost five candidates. There were up to the last moment all the anxieties of five candidates. I had the honour of introducing to public life that freak can- didate, Mr. Hunnable. He appeared on our flank, and whoever was speaking, whether Liberal, Tory, Labour, or Nationalist, at a public meeting Mr. Hunnable appeared in the offing. He also made, perhaps, the best answer that I ever heard or read of on one important point. It was said that he had been put under restraint for mental trouble at one time of his life, and that he had been released as cured. The Durham miners were rather curious about the matter, and they put the question to him at a meeting, "Are you not a lunatic?" and he said, "There are five candidates before this constituency"—he was counting himself as one— "and I am the only one who can produce a certificate of sanity."

This great contest ended in the Labour candidate, the late Mr. Pete Curran, a particular friend of mine before, during, and after the election, being returned by 4,698 votes. The votes for the others, and therefore presumably against him, came to a total of 9,626—that is to say, more than twice as many people voted against Mr. Curran as voted for him, and yet he won the election. The second experience which I had was not quite so complicated as that. Here, again, I was mixed up with a very famous man, Mr. Dumphreys, who was a Member of this House, I think, for about three weeks. There the issue was complicated by the appearance of a Socialist candidate, and the result was that while the victor, the man who came here, polled 4,278 votes, there were polled against him 5,126 votes. So in each of the first two elections of which I had any personal experience the man who got in, got in in consequence of or by virtue of fewer votes than those which were given against him. Therefore I am inclined to support the proposal in the Bill. I think that something ought to be done to alter the system that kept me out. It is quite possible to urge with a great deal of apparent reason that the reason I was not returned was because I was a bad candidate. I say that because in each case I lost for the Liberal party a seat which had been held by the Liberal party and in each case that seat has been regained by the Liberal party since then. Therefore it may be said that the fault was mine as I was a bad candidate. At the same time I tried to harbour the suspicion that the present electoral system had something to do with it, and therefore I shall vote to alter that system.

I have always been in favour of the system of alternative voting and I am going to vote for its retention in the Bill. But I do think that if the Government wished to obtain the alternative vote by this Bill they should have drafted the Sub-section and the Schedule which explains the Sub-section in a very much better form than that in which it has been drafted. If that had been done we should probably not have heard a great deal of the criticism which we have heard during this Debate. The Sub-section says that if at an election for one Member of Parliament there are more than two candidates the election shall be according to the principle of the alternative vote as defined by this Act. I wish to join issue at once with the Government on this Sub-section, because it seems to me that they are doing with the alternative vote exactly what they proposed to do with proportional representation to which I was strongly opposed, that is to limit the alternative vote to certain constituencies. They do not propose to apply it in any two-member constituencies. If we are going to have at the next election the class of candidates who have been foreshadowed in this Debate it is quite as necessary to have the alternative vote in constituencies returning more than one member, as it is in one-member constituencies, because in a two-member constituency you probably have two candidates representing each of the large parties, and it. is quite possible that you may get a candidate representing a smaller number standing on the chance that owing to the large number of candidates he might possibly win.

In the Schedule which explains the Subsection it says that the expression "alternative vote" means a vote given so as to indicate the voters' preference for the candidates in order. I would like some Member of the Government to tell us exactly what that means. As I, and I think other Members, read it it means that if for a one-member constituency there are going to be four or five candidates, as the hon. Member for Stockport has just explained, you are going to give votes for all the candidates in order of preference. That is if there are four candidates you are going to give four votes and if five candidates five votes in order of preference. If that is the meaning of the definition it is quite different from what I have always understood the alternative vote to be. As I have followed the Debate those who are in favour of the alternative vote have understood it to be exactly the same as I did myself; that is, that the person should have a right to give a second vote or a second preference to a second candidate. If the Government had explained in the Schedule that what they meant by the alternative vote was when the leading candidate did not receive 50 per cent. of the votes polled they should then count the second vote, and there would be no other votes except the second vote, I believe that that would make a great deal of difference in the voting which is going to take place. I believe that the alternative vote is a much better system than the second ballot. I have always been very anxious to see it operate in this country and, if we are to have at the next election the class of candidates who have been foreshadowed, it would be more than justified. Those of us who are in favour of the alternative voting system have a very reasonable ground of complaint against the Government that in drafting this Bill they have not in the Sub-section and in the Schedule dealt with the explanation of what the alternative vote means, and made it much plainer than it it, and that they have not given the Committee a very much better explanation of what is proposed in the Bill.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word ' defined,' stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 125; Noes, 124.

Division No. 95.]

AYES.

[6.40 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Adamson, William

Brunner, John F. L.

Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

Bryce, J. Annan

Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)

Anderson, W. C.

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Falconer, James

Astor, Major Hon. Waldorf

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick

Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Chancellor, Henry George

Ffrench, Peter

Balfour. Sir Robert (Lanark)

Clough, William

Finney, Samuel

Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs)

Clynes, John R.

Galbraith, Samuel

Beale, Sir William Philipson

Collings, Major Godfrey P. (Greenock)

Gilbert, J. D.

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Collins, Sir W. (Derby)

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Boland, John Plus

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Hancock, John George

Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.)

Macnamara, Bt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Haslam, Lewis

Maden, Sir John Henry

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Healy, Maurice (Cork)

Mallalieu, Frederick William

Shaw, Han. A.

Hemmerde, Edward George

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Durham)

Millar, James Duncan

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook

Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Morgan, James Hay

Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Morison, Thomas B. (Iaverness)

Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.)

Hills, John Walter

Needham, Christopher T.

Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

Sutton, John E.

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Nolan, Joseph

Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.)

Holt, Richard Durning

Norman, Sir Henry

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Ogden, Fred

Toulmin, sir George

Jacobsen, Thomas Owen

Outhwaite, R. L.

Walters, Sir John Tudor

John, Edward Thomas

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Walton, Sir Joseph

Johnson, W.

Parker, James (Halifax)

Wardle, George J.

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Parrott, Sir James Edward

Watson, John B. (Stockton)

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Pratt, J. W.

Wedgwood, Lt.-Commander Josiah

Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Keating, Matthew

Pringle, William M. R.

Wilkie, Alexander

Kenyon, Barnet

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.)

Kiley, James Daniel

Rea, Walter Russell

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

King, Joseph

Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arfon)

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

Richards, Thomas

Wing, Thomas Edward

Law, Hugh A, (Donegal, West)

Richarson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Young, William (Perthshire, East)

Layland-Barratt, Sir F.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Yoxall, Sir James Henry

Levy, Sir Maurice

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.

Lynch, Arthur Alfred

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Dickinson and Mr. J. M. Macdonald.

McMicking, Major Gilbert

Rowlands, James

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Duncannon, Viscount

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Anstruther-Gray, Lieut.-Col. William

Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Archdale, Lieut. E. M.

Fell, Arthur

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Baird, John Lawrence

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham)

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid)

Baldwin, Stanley

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G.

Fleming, Sir John

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

Fletcher, John Samuel

Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse)

Barnett, Captain R. W.

Foster, Philip Staveley

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Beach, William F. H.

Ganzoni, Francis John C.

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Gardner, Ernest

Peto, Basil Edward

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Philipps, Captain Sir Owen (Chester)

Bellairs, Commander C. W.

Greig, Colonel J. W.

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Gretton, John

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

Hambro, Angus Valdemar

Radford, Sir George Heynes

Bigland, Alfred

Hardy, Rt. Hon. Lawrence

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Bird, Alfred

Henry, Denis S.

Rawson, Colonel R. H.

Blair, Reginald

Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T.

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.)

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Salter, Arthur Clavell

Boyton, James

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Samuels, Arthur W.

Bridgeman, William Clive

Hope, Lt. Col. J. A. (Midlothian)

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Bull, Sir William James

Houston Robert Paterson

Steel-Maitland, Sir A. D.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hume-Williams, William Ellis

Stewart, Gershom

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Hunt, Major Rowland

Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald

Butcher, John George

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H.

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Carew, C. R. S.

Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S (York)

Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Ches., Knutsfd.)

Cator, John

Jones Kennedy (Hornsey)

Talbot, Lord Edmund

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George

Larmor, Sir J.

Touche, Sir George Alexander

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Robert (Herts, Hitchin)

Lloyd George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Lockyer-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

Coats, Sir Stewart A. (Wimbledon)

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.)

Cochrane, Cecil Algernon

Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

Weigall, Lieut.-Col William E. G. A.

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives)

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Cory, James Herbert (Cardiff)

Mackinder, Halford J.

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.)

Macmaster, Donald

Wilmer, Viscount

Craik, Sir Henry

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Magnus, Sir Philip

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

Malcolm, Ian

Younger, Sir George

Dennis, E. R. B.

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Dixon, C. H.

Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Colonel

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Molteno, Percy Alport

Sanders and Major Newman

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (3).

This Sub-section provides that at a contested election for a university constituency, where there are two members to be elected, no person shall vote for more than one candidate. This differs from the last Amendment, inasmuch as this Sub-section was unanimously carried by the Speaker's Conference, and the result of it is to render university representation null and void, because it is absolutely clear that there will be one Conservative and one Liberal returned for every university which returns a member to Parliament. I do not introduce the question of the Labour party, because, so far as I know, they would have no part in a university election, or at all events not sufficient to have any influence upon the result. The vast majority of the members returned will be either Conservative or Liberal, unless there happens to be such an overwhelming majority of Conservatives that they could arrange to secure the representation, though that would be very difficult to do. It has been done under the Minority Clause of Lord Beaconsfield, introduced many years ago. It was done in Birmingham and in the City of London. Then the City returned four members, and you could only vote for three, but as there was an overwhelming proportion of Conservative electors in the City at the election of 1880, they did return four Conservative members. That was done by what is called the caucus, and it can only be done if the majority on the one side or the other is very great. I think everybody will agree with me that it is too ludicrous to enact a provision which will render university representation useless. There will be in all these cases one Conservative and one Liberal. If they are not very energetic they will probably pair with each other, and not come near the House at all. If they are very energetic, then I presume the most energetic would say, "I shall attend the House," and the other member will of course be obliged to attend also, so that when a Division takes place one will vote in the Aye Lobby and the other in the No. I do not know what argument influenced those members of the Conference who approved of this extraordinary method of conducting an election, because the result will be—and it does seem to me ludicrous—that the representation of the universities will be rendered null and void.

The Sub-section is undoubtedly of an unusual kind. Where two members are to be elected the voters have only one vote. University representation is in itself an unusual thing, and this provision was inserted in the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference as a qualifying measure with a view to securing a unanimous recommen- dation for the retention of university representation. It is well known to all hon. Members in every quarter of the House that university representation is regarded with great disfavour by large sections of opinion in this country and in the House, and I do not think it is probable that the representatives of this school of opinion in the Speaker's Conference could have agreed to the continuance of university representation if it had not been for the insertion of some such provision as this. Therefore, the alternative before us is not really, as the hon. Baronet would have us think, to adopt this method of election on the one hand which retains the Sub-section in the Bill, or, on the other hand, to abolish university representation altogether. The Speaker's Conference, having surveyed the whole of the circumstances, came to the unanimous agreement, on the one hand, that they would not propose the abolition of university-representation, and, on the other hand, that they would qualify it by the insertion of a recommendation, such as that which now finds itself in the Sub-section under consideration. After all, it has some justification in itself on the merits and not merely as a compromise. My right hon. Friend said that it would make university representation null and void. He was looking at representation, I am afraid, from the somewhat narrow standpoint of party, from which most of us, in usual times, are disposed to regard many political questions. With regard to university representation we have been told, also, that its justification is not that you would get two persons representing partisan opinion within the university, but that you would get persons of intellectual distinction, representing standpoints on public affairs which would not find representation among members for ordinary constituencies, and that the retention of these university representatives in this House was justified on these grounds—not to enable Liberals or Conservatives in the universities to be returned, but that you may get distinctive types of thought covered by academic methods which are thought to be of value to the State. On that ground we ought to put aside these questions of party, and if we are to have university representation at all, I think it is reasonable to secure, as far as can be members representative not merely of one but of various currents of political thought in the State. I hope, therefore, that the Government will not think of departing from the unanimous recommendation of the Speaker's Conference in this regard, because, if they do, inevitably it would open up the general controversy on the whole question of retaining university representation.

As I understood the right hon. Gentleman, he said that the alternative was either to accept the proposal of the Speaker's Conference by retaining this Sub-section, or that, if you strike out this Sub-section, you decide against university representation altogether. I think I am right in my interpretation.

One ought to follow the other. It would be a very unfair thing to retain, on the one hand, university representation, while, on the other hand, you struck out the provision.

7.0 P.M.

I will take the right hon. Gentleman on that point. The recommendation was proposed at the Speaker's Conference. I am not going to enter into a discussion of the question of university representation at all, because that we may have yet to discuss on the merits. All I can say is that this particular Sub-section (3) does not embody the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. If the right hon. Gentleman will be good enough to look at Page 5 of the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, he will see what is proposed with regard to university representation. In certain cases there were to be three members, and there is no provision in this Section or in any other part of the Bill for a university to return three members. What the Speakers proposal in such a case was that the three members should be returned by the system of the single transferable vote. This Sub-section, which the right hon. Gentleman says is an essential part of the proposals of the Speaker's Conference, is absolutely at variance with them. I think we must have from the Government some sort of explanation as to what is intended by the Clause as it stands. I am not going to enter upon the question of what is the best arrangement now. I must first of all understand from the Government what interpretation they place on the Clause as laid before us. but I am quite certain it does not embody the proposal of the Speaker's Conference.

May I point out, in answer to the hon. Member, that this provision is explicitly recommended by the Speaker's Conference, but a part of the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference has been struck out of the Bill already by a previous decision. This Clause is covered by Recommendation 22 ( a ) as follows:

"The Universities of Oxford and Cambridge shall continue to return two members each. The electorate shall be widened, and in order to secure a proper representation of minorities, each voter shall be allowed to vote for one candidate only."

They went on to say that in cases where provincial universities and the University of London were grouped together that there should be proportional representation, and similarly in the case of Scotland.

The Conference does not say a single word about proportional representation, but that in the case of groups there should be the single transferable vote.

The single transferable vote is exactly what proportional representation means. By Clause 15 (1), "In a constituency returning three or four members, any election of the full number of members shall be according to the principle of proportional representation, each elector having one transferable vote as denned by this Act." Consequently the scheme of the Speaker's Conference was proportional representation for the universities grouped together in constituencies returning more than two members, and this particular anomalous-arrangement of the voter being allowed to vote for one candidate only in case of Oxford and Cambridge, which return two members each. I have an Amendment later on which would have the effect of exactly restoring the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, but this provision is an integral part of the Speaker's Conference. Personally, I am quite prepared to stand by the Speaker's Conference, but if the Committee is not prepared to give proportional representation in these university seats, then I, for my part, say I am against university representation; altogether. Therefore I am not going to vote for the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet at the present stage, but if on a subsequent Amendment proportional representation is struck out, and if you are going to have the single-member constituency, with its unredeemed partisanship and all the evils of the single system applied to university representation, then on the Report stage I am quite prepared to vote with the right hon. Baronet. I do not wish to shut out the possibility of having proportional representation applied to the university seats.

I think university representation is a very tender plant. It may conceivably escape the storms of this Bill, but I do not think it will have a very long life unless it is going to be something rather different from the ordinary system. I know it is said that threatened institutions live long, and if you escape the risks of the present emergency perhaps you speculate on the possibility of a long life, but I am not quite certain whether you could not kill university representation now. I think some of my hon. Friends will make out a very good case on the subject. The ground on which university representation can justify itself surely is that it will produce a different class and character of representation than is given through the ordinary channels which produce for us here political partisans. If you have got a fair system of representation which gives opportunities for minorities, I am quite prepared and should like to see university representation continued; but if you get away from the Speaker's Conference, which did recognise the fairness of minority representation in this case, then I say that we are no longer to be held to our part of the bargain, and I think we should vote against university representation.

The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has made a very impassioned speech which contained a certain amount of threats which I think were rather out of place. He has threatened to do away with university representation. So far as this Bill is concerned, as far as we have gone, that representation is part of the Bill, and therefore it would be quite impossible in any one of the Sub-sections to reverse a decision at which we have already arrived. This particular Clause does not affect the university I represent, and, notwithstanding the threats of my hon. Friend, I do not think he is likely to succeed in being able to group the University of London with eight other universities.

The hon. Gentleman referred to proportional representation, which, I understand, can only exist where there are at least three members, and that could only happen by grouping. The hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) also said that this was a compromise under which alone university representation would be accepted as part of the electoral system of this country. I deny that. The compromise was not one affecting university representation. The compromise was against plural voting, and it was that instead of continuing plural voting, as hitherto, when it formed a part of the electoral system of this country, the property qualification and all other qualifications should be done away with, and that only two qualifications should be allowed to remain, namely, that of business residence and that of the university franchise. Those were the facts which formed the compromise against plural voting. The right hon. Gentleman cannot expect our party to pay twice for that compromise. Therefore, on both grounds of objection which he raised, I think a clear answer can be given. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland said, and I think he was supported by the hon. Gentleman, that university representation should be considered apart from all party considerations. I have to acknowledge the fact that in the election for a university member, as in other elections, one has to consider party questions, but at the same time it is possible, I suppose—and every university member will, I think, regard it as possible—to select your member either from Conservatives or from Liberals. Therefore, I think both the arguments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland and the Member for Lincoln fall to the ground.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that there is one mistake which the right hon. Gentleman made. The compromise regarding university representation did not arise on the method of voting for university representation; it was settled long before that question. I think we are drifting in this Debate into a very dangerous position with regard to the whole question of this Bill. We must remember that the Government accepted the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference with two exceptions, and I must say that they are not adhering to that decision. I am not going back on what has taken place, but in regard to this matter of voting for university repre- sentation the method of voting for Oxford and Cambridge was part of the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. It was adopted by the Government, and, therefore, I think if the Government want to abide by the recommendations of the Conference as a whole they must adhere to this method of voting as it applies to Oxford and Cambridge. When they come to the question of the grouping of the Universities, then, I think, that will rather open up another problem upon which I would not make so positive a statement, because, of course, proportional representation as a principle was left to the House to settle. I am afraid, when we come to that, we must again leave it to the House. Nevertheless, there is this other point that I think ought to be taken into consideration by the House. Some of us on the Committee agreed to the representation of the new universities; but we are dealing with that only and not with the question of the older universities which had previous representation. The question of the new universities was for the first time brought in under this Bill, and we only agreed to it on condition that they were grouped. When it comes to the question of the new universities in the matter of grouping, I think the Committee will be well advised to consider whether or not there should not be large groupings with three or four members. The hon. Baronet who has just sat down spoke as if for all time, certainly, it was going to be a question of the representation of the universities being divided between Conservative and Liberal. Let him make no mistake about that: that will not always happen.

I know, but I think they will not always obtain. I believe that the party to which I belong will some day, under this Bill, be found probably to include university representatives. Therefore, I venture to ask the Committee to be very careful of what they are doing. University representation we have recognised, but we believe it to be an anomaly. We agreed, however, to recognise it not on the ground of the method of working, but on the ground of the general compromise under the Bill. Under the circumstances I should like to have a statement on the part of the Government that from now they are going to stick to the compromise embodied in the Speaker's recommendation. In this matter I appeal to the Government to say that they will adhere to the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference in regard to Oxford and Cambridge, and that perhaps another method of working should be adopted for the newer universities.

The speech of the hon. Member who has just sat down suggests to me that it is desirable that I should state now what is the view of the Government. I would preface my observations by saying that the Government pledged itself to bring in a Bill to support the unanimous findings and recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, with one exception, and that was referred to on the very first occasion, and that exception was proportional representation. I do not know at all what my hon. Friend had in his mind when he hints that we are not adhering to that undertaking. I know of no circumstance of any sort where we have departed from it, except in a few instances at an earlier stage, where we made a concession to that which was practically the unanimous feeling of the House. Except in those cases where there was a feeling that there should be concessions made about the lodger vote, and so on, we have scrupulously adhered to our undertaking.

I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon; I do not think it was done on the last vote.

I say most distinctly that there has been no change, unless it was the unanimous feeling that one should be made. The last vote was on a matter upon which the Speaker's Conference was not unanimous, and those matters we have always left to the judgment of the House. I hope what I say is so, and, indeed, I am quite sure it is so. This is a matter which touches me very closely. Let us see how this particular Amendment is affected by what has been said—the exception made was in favour of proportional representation. Some of my hon. Friends think—I say it quite frankly—and they have told me they thought that the exception of proportional representation covered the whole of these which are called fancy methods of voting—that is to say, the whole of Clause 15. That view is held by some of those who had the best means of knowing what was in the minds of Ministers. Although that is so, my own feeling is that whatever may have been in the mind of the Prime Minister and in the mind of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long), at all events they did not express any other exception except that of proportional representation. Therefore I think it is right to interpret the arrangement as excepting only proportional representation, properly so-called. My own view is, therefore, that we ought to adhere to the unanimous view of the Conference. On this point we have the plain finding of the Conference as follows:

May I just make two further observations? My hon. Friend who represents the University of Dublin has very fairly pointed out to me that the Report of the Speaker's Conference only applied to Oxford and Cambridge and not to Dublin. The sentence which I have quoted does not apply to the University of Dublin, but we have put it in general terms because we thought that was the right thing to do. I desire to say most distinctly that the question of the Irish position will come up later, and it will then be open to my hon. Friend to raise this point in relation to Dublin or any other part of Ireland, and make what other observations he thinks right. At present the best plan I think is to take the Sub-section in general terms, although in that respect it appears to go beyond the recommendations. Secondly, this does not in any way affect the question of the grouping of the universities. We shall deal with that matter and can debate it when we come to the Schedules. There is one other point I should like to mention. There is an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Cambridge University. He proposes that as regards any university having two or more members they shall be elected by proportional representation. The difficulty about that is, of course, that it does involve a modification of this Sub-section. On the other hand, as it relates to the proportional representation, I am rather disposed to think that so far as that Amendment goes the House ought to be free to take its own line.

I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is recommending us to accept this Sub-section without prejudice to questions which will later arise.

The difficulty in which the Committee finds itself in regard to this particular Amendment is partly owing to events which have already happened, and also to an event which has. not happened, namely, the filling in of the Schedule, which would throw considerable light upon university representation. The carrying out of this recommendation of the Speaker's Conference applies, as a matter of fact, to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge alone. There was an Amendment before the Committee on the last occasion the matter was discussed which contemplated the grouping of all the universities for the purpose of election on the principle of proportional representation. That included Oxford and Cambridge with London University and the provincial universities, so that really the question of the grouping of the universities dominates the question of any variation of the method of dealing with university election, as raised in the limited form in this particular Sub-section. I venture to think that the House, having already decided on two occasions against proportional representation — though I myself voted for it on both occasions— will find considerable difficulty in applying proportional representation to university representation, seeing that it has been negatived in regard to the rest of the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] Should proportional representation be tried, as I hope and believe it will be tried eventually, I should prefer to see it tried in the most extended and least criticisable form. By applying it to the universities it would be tried in the most exiguous and the most criticisable form. I happen to know in regard to the grouping—

The hon. Member had better perhaps leave this question of proportional representation alone until we arrive at the Clause dealing with it.

I cannot help thinking—and that is why I have mentioned the matter—that the question of grouping dominates the whole question here.

I regret very much that we are asked to give a blind support to the Government in regard to this very abnormal, and, indeed, unprecedented Sub-section as it stands. It has been rightly described as really a fancy method of voting. We are asked to support it for no other reason, as I understand it, than that the Speaker's Conference has declared in its favour. On this matter of the Speaker's Conference I do most strongly protest against being bound by every term of it, and more especially in regard to these relatively minor matters which cannot possibly be regarded as really the substance and essence of the compromise. On some large question there might be some reason for this. Personally, I do not like it at all, because it has bound the House of Commons. In a matter like this, of relatively small detail, affecting only two constituencies in the country, it is a real pity for the Government to saddle us with this part of the compromise. Apart from this compromise, there has not been one single syllable of argument in its favour. We have had a most ingenious former Home Secretary (Mr. Samuel) talking about it, and he dammed it absolutely when he said, "Well, possibly after all there may be some slight justification for it on its merits," but he did not tell us what it was. Here is a proposal absolutely unheard of in the electoral system of the country. Ever since the origin of Parliament—certainly 600 or 700 years—wherever you have had a two-member constituency, each voter has had two votes. There has not been a single alteration in that precedent throughout the whole of our national history, and now for the first time this House is asked to say in the case of Oxford and Cambridge —those old-standing constituencies— "Keep your two members, but there must be only one vote." Why should the Speaker's Conference have arrived at that extraordinary decision? I should like to know the names of the persons who voted for it.

But who suggested it? They all perhaps may have voted for it, because they were persuaded into it, but what was the animating motive for bringing this forward? The only motive I can perceive is that there were not as many Liberal representatives of the universities as some Liberal Members might desire. I really wish to look at this from some larger point of view. I entirely agree with the hon. Member who spoke from the Labour benches (Mr. Wardle) in hoping the time may come when there may be members from the university representing Labour opinion, and it may come sooner than some of us think. If that be so, why should not these two university constituencies, if they are Labour in their general complexion, be represented by Labour men? The late Home Secretary said that you want members for the university of intellectual distinction, and I gather he went on to say that it did not matter to what party they belong. I entirely accept that, and I say, if you get these men of intellectual distinction, why should you try to introduce some fancy method of voting in order to have men of one political party or another? What does it matter whether they are Labour, Tory, or Liberal so long as they possess the characteristic of intellectual distinction. Therefore, I say that this is an entirely novel and unprecedented suggestion, and I hope the Committee will not accept this fancy method of trying to introduce some party system into our universities, which they have not at present.

I was very glad to hear the opinion expressed by the leader of the Labour party that the question of university representation was not decided at the Speaker's Conference with any reference to the way in which people were to vote. I would like to ask him to agree with me that the proviso that each elector in the two older universities was to have one vote was settled in a summary way without considering the difficulties in detail that such provision might lead to if it were not accompanied by the principle of indicating an alternative vote in accordance with the form of the Amend- ment which I have put down. It is my impression that the Speaker's Conference did not go into the details of the methods by which this one vote was to be effectively recorded. If it had gone into the details I should certainly have pressed the point which I have put down as an Amendment: that the vote of any elector should not be lost by his giving it to somebody who has got more votes than he needs already. I rely on the recollection of other members of the Speaker's Conference when I say the details of the mode in which the single vote was to be given were not considered at all—whether there should be a second alternative or whether the elector had the right to vote for one candidate and stop at that. In answer to the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Butcher), I may say that my own impression of the particularly anomalous arrangement—as the right hon. Gentleman opposite expressed it—for the older universities was part of the scheme for getting the universities as far as possible within the fold of proportional representation. The new universities were to be grouped, and the question arose what to do with Oxford and Cambridge. In order to carry out the ideas as to proportional representation for a large group of the constituencies and if possible, to get the universities within the scope of proportional representation, as unanimously recommended, this proposal wag put in.

My personal impression is that, as proportional representation has gone for the great bulk of the constituencies in the country, it ought not to remain for university groups, and more particularly this anomalous arrangement as it has been admitted universally to be—should not remain for the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. There is a point in connection therewith which has not been mentioned. I am free to admit that if the constituencies of Oxford and Cambridge were to remain as they are now I could not argue against the Sub-section. But the present electorate at Cambridge is about 7,000 and it is probably something similar at Oxford, and as the Bill will give every graduate a vote that electorate will rise from 7,000 to anything up to 20,000. Now I admit that with the 7,000 there is a poor chance for the Liberal candidate to be elected, and if only members of the Senate were to be electors I could not oppose this Subsection; but surely it is a right assumption that if you change an electorate from 7,000 to something near 20,000, the chances are as large that a Liberal candidate would be returned as not, and the future is not by any means so one-sided. I am glad to express my opinion that the political view of universities in the future is not likely to be anything so one-sided as in the past, but I think the Government might take into consideration, before they perpetuate a particularly anomalous arrangement for only two constituencies in the country, that the character of these constituencies is going to be totally changed, that the number of electors will be trebled, and new types of electors will be brought in. I hope the Government, therefore, will reconsider whether it is not better to leave the two universities in the same position as the other constituencies in the country.

I should just like to bear out that which was said by the hon. Member for Cambridge University, that this particular Clause was distinctly put in because the new universities were to be grouped and were to have their elections under proportional representation. It was felt to be unfair to have the new universities with proportional representation and leave the older universities with their old way of voting. Therefore, without having any regard to the particular way in which this voting should be exercised, it was agreed that this new scheme should be adopted for the old universities. My own view is that, if proportional representation is kept for the new universities, this ought to be kept for the old universities, but if the new universities are kept on in the old way, and proportional representation is done away with altogether, then, I think, this also ought to fall, because it will deal with these two constituencies in an entirely different way from any other constituencies in the country, for which there is no pretext of any sort of kind. At all events, whatever way the voting goes to-day, I think it must be understood that the whole question can be reopened when the question of grouping comes up and the question of university representation comes to be considered as a whole. I should like to say, from my own personal position as a member of the Speaker's Conference, I am bound to uphold the findings of that Conference, but I do not think I am bound to uphold this, because, having agreed, although very reluctantly, to uphold proportional representation, because it was agreed as part of the Speaker's Conference, proportional representation having gone, I think my conscience is quite free. Proportional representation having gone for the new universities, it would be grossly unfair for these two old constituencies to be treated differently from any other constituency.

I regret exceedingly that my right hon. colleague in the representation of the University of Dublin (Sir Edward Carson) is unable to be present this evening, and I regret very much, too, that owing to public duties of a. pressing character, the representatives of the University of Oxford are not able to take part in this Debate. Will the Committee pardon me if I read a letter I have received from my distinguished colleague, which represents his views as to the binding nature of the Speaker's Conference: case these universities having leave, in the words of the charters,

It does seem an invidious thing that the two ancient Universities of Oxford and Cambridge should be placed in this most anomalous position. Is this done as a party question, or is it done for some high, sublime, idea of getting some peculiar representative who will always be a representative of the minority? I do not think that is the case at all, and does it not argue a vast want of confidence in the future electors of the universities? Universities are going to be democratised. They are democratised already by the vote of this House. The constituencies, instead of being constituencies of persons holding the higher degrees, are to be constituencies of every person who graduates at all, and added to that is the case of the ladies. The result is that constituencies will reach from 15,000 to 20,000 in each of these old universities. Is not this a very inoppor- tune moment to bring forward this proposal to narrow the right of those many thousands who will be coming under this Bill to obtain the franchise? The constituencies will be very wide and very widespread; they will not be subject to local influence; the electors will be educated men and women; and why should they not be trusted? Why should they not still have, as they have had for three centuries, the right of electing "a discreet and efficient member" of the university, such as my hon. Friend on my right (Sir J. Larmor)? Not only is the electorate being enlarged but the universities are being democratised, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Hughes). You have been voting unprecedented sums for education, and under the scheme of the Minister for Education, which has been endorsed so enthusiastically by the House, the sons and daughters of the future will matriculate in the infant schools and graduate in the universities. If you are not afraid of the coming democracy, why do you seek to paralyse its power of representation? Whatever may be the evolution of political thought in the future of university graduates— whether they be Conservative or Radical, Labour, Liberal, or Socialist, or, as I hope they are now and always will in the future be, thoroughly Imperialistic—at any rate, trust them. Let them speak out; do not strike them with aphasia. I think this paralysing Clause is not statesmanship, and is not really worthy of the House of Commons. It is a mere subterfuge by which a factitious vote is given to the minority of the university who are voters.

Let us look for a moment at another aspect of the case. In a case of an election, what happens? Supposing you want another First Lord of the Admiralty or President of the Board of Agriculture, selected from the universities, and this man is elected by the minority vote, will he be returned, or will he not be? Will he be a political prisoner in the circumstances? I do not think it is in the interest of universities or of ministries that they should have members returned by a minority vote. There is another very important matter that has to be taken into account. At present you have the overwhelming opinion of the universities on what you call the Unionist or Conservative side. You intend to introduce a system by which a Liberal minority can secure a vote. That can be counter-checked by a caucus, by political arrangements in the universities; but can anything be more deleterious to university life than to set up the machinery of party within their walls? A general election comes but rarely, and when it does there are for a short time a considerable amount of political squibs and other kinds of squibs fired off. But all that passes away in a week or two, and the universities resume the normal character of their life. What you will be doing now is to divide your universities into political camps, and nothing could be worse for the future than to have the university professoriat of the calculus of the political caucus. In these circumstances I oppose the Clause. Having regard to the suggestion thrown out by the right hon. Gentleman, I do not want to deal immediately with the question of Dublin University. Dublin is treated in an anomalous way in Ireland, and Ireland is treated in an anomalous way in the Bill. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment that we have on the Paper lower down that the University of Dublin should be omitted from this Clause. I oppose the Clause on principle because when we come to deal with the case of Ireland the same objection will be taken, that in Dublin we will have to have the same minority vote under the new arrangement. I think the whole Clause is a retrograde one that ought not to be passed, and I hope that the vote of the Committee will show that whatever may be the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman as to the character of the Speaker's Conference they take the view that the matter has been, so far as there was any compromise about it, dealt with in the main in the rejection by this House of the proposal of proportional representation.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out, to the word 'to' ['to be elected'], stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 133; Noes, 66.

Division No. 96.]

AYES.

[7.56 p.m.

Adamson, William

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine

Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Anderson, W. C.

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Baird, John Lawrence

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Parker, James (Halifax)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Holmes, Daniel Turner

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Brunner, John F. L.

Holt, Richard Durning

Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse)

Bryce, J. Annan

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George

Bull, Sir William James

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Carr-Gomm. H. W.

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Pringle, William M. R.

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George

Illingworth, Rt. HON. Albert H.

Radford, Sir George Heynes

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich)

John, Edward Thomas

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Robert (Herts, Hitchin)

Johnson, W.

Rea. Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Chancellor, Henry George

Jones J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

Clough, William

Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Clyde, J. Avon

Jowett, Frederick William

Roberts, George H. (Norwich)

Collins, Sir W. (Derby)

Kollaway, Frederick George

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir

Kenyon, Barnet

Robertson. Rt. Hon. John M.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

King, Joseph

Rowlands, James

Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe)

Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Sherwell, Arthur James

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Layland-Barratt, Sir F.

Shortt, Edward

Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H.

Levy, Sir Maurice

Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)

Falconer, James

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)

French, Peter

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Sutton, John E.

Finney, Samuel

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs)

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)

Macdonald J. Ramsay, (Leicester)

Toulmin, Sir George

Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham)

Mackinder, Halford J.

Walton, Sir Joseph

Fleming, Sir John

Macmaster, Donald

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

McMicking, Major Gilbert

Wedgwood, Lt. Commander Josiah

Goddard. Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

White, J Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Maden, Sir John Henry

Wilkie, Alexander

Greig, Colonel James William

Mallalieu, Frederick William

Williams, Aneurin (Durham N. W.)

Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)

Hancock, J. G.

Millar, James Duncan

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton. Beds)

Morgan, George Hay

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.)

Morison, Hector (Hackney, S.)

Wing, Thomas Edward

Haslam, Lewis

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Worthington Evans, Major Sir L.

Healy, Maurice (Cork)

Needham, Christopher T.

Young, William (Perth, East)

Hemmerde, Edward George

Nolan, Joseph

Yoxall, Sir James Henry

Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Durham)

Norman, Sir Henry

Henderson. John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Outhwaite, R. L.

Sir E. Cornwall and Lord E. Talbot.

Hills, John Waller

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Ganzoni, Francis John C.

Pollock, Ernest Murray

Archdale, Lieut. E. M.

Goldman, C. S.

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Baldwin, Stanley

Gretton, John

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Barnett, Captain R. W.

Hanson, Charles Augustin

Reid, Rt. Hon. Sir George H.

Bigland, Alfred

Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool W. Derby)

Blair, Reginald

Henry, Denis S.

Salter, Arthur Claveil

Boyton, J.

Hewins, William Herbert Samuel

Samuels, Arthur W.

Burdett-Coutts, William

Hope, Lieut.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian)

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Houston, Robert Paterson

Sanders, Colonel Robert Arthur

Carew, Charles R. F. (Tiverton)

Hume-Williams, William Ellis

Stewart, Gershom

Cator, John

Larmor, Sir J.

Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Lloyd. George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Teuche, Sir George Alexander

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

Weigall, Colonel William E. G. A.

Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Cory, James H. (Cardiff)

Meux, Hon. Sir Hedworth

Wilson Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Cowan. Sir W. H.

Newman. John R. P.

Wolmer, Viscount

Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.)

Nield, Herbert

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Craik, Sir Henry

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid)

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Denniss, E. R. S.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Younger, Sir George

Duncannon, Viscount

Parrott, Sir James Edward

Fell, Arthur

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir

Fletcher, John Samuel

Peto, Basil Edward

F. Banbury and Mr. Butcher.

8.0 P.M.

The next two Amendments, standing in the name of the hon. Member for one of the divisions of Glasgow (Mr. Dundas White) and the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King)—[in Sub-section (3), to leave out the word "university"]—are not in order, as widening the scope of the Subsection beyond the objects of the Clause altogether. With regard to the next Amendment, in the name of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin University (Mr. A. Samuels)—

May I respectfully address you on the question of whether my Amendment is in order or not?

I think very frequently you allow a Member briefly to explain the point and to try to establish the fact that his Amendment is in order. May I do so by pointing out that this Clause is not entirely limited to the question of university representation? It is headed " Modifications of Method of Voting in Certain Constituencies, " and my proposal would be simply this, that all two-member constituencies should vote on the same principle. There is nothing in the title of the Clause to exclude it as being out of order, and in fact the question as to the method which should be adopted in two-member constituencies seems appropriate to come in here and nowhere else. May I ask, if it is not in order here, at what stage or place in the Bill it would be in order to raise this point?

I am obliged to the hon. Member, but I do not agree with him, and at the moment I am unable to indicate where his proposition would come in in the Bill. If the hon. Member talks to me later on, I will see if I can assist him. The next Amendment, in the name of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin University—[to exclude Dublin University]—should not come in here. It will arise when we come to discuss the Clause relating to Ireland. The next Amendment is that in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Tyne mouth (Commander H. Craig)—[after the word "two," to insert the words "or more"].

May I rise to a point of Order? I venture to think this Amendment is not in order, and I appeal to you for your decision. The Amendment proposes that at a contested election for a university constituency, where there are two or more members to be elected, the election shall take place under the system of proportional representation. The principle of proportional representation, according to the Report of the Speaker's Conference, refers only to constituencies returning at least three members. Therefore, I think this Amendment is not in accordance with the terms of the Report of the Speaker's Conference, and is, I venture to think you will agree, an Amendment which cannot be moved. On the other hand, the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. C. Roberts) has realised that difficulty and has himself put down an Amendment which at the same time is in order and might be discussed. But the other Amendment, not being in accordance with any of the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, is quite out of order, I submit.

On the point of Order. May I ask whether the decisions previously given in this Committee have not really covered the question of the principle of proportional representation? In principle we have decided that it is not to be in this Bill and that being so, is not this Amendment ruled out?

With regard to the last point of the hon. and learned Member for York, that was settled by the Chairman at the conclusion of the Division on the general question of proportional representation, when he indicated that he would be prepared to accept an Amendment dealing with proportional representation in regard to university constituencies. So far as I am concerned that settles that question. With regard to the point which the hon. Baronet—

May I say I should be desirous of raising the same question as was raised by the hon. and learned Member opposite on somewhat other grounds before your decision is taken?

I do not think it is any use putting the other grounds to me, because it is quite settled so far as I am concerned. I will allow this question after what the Chairman said on the last occasion. With regard to the point the right hon. Baronet put to me, I am calling on the hon. and gallant Member for Rotherhithe (Captain Carr-Gomm) or the hon. and gallant Member for Tyne-mouth (Commander Craig) to move the Amendment at the bottom of the page on the Blue Paper issued to-day—that is, after the word "two" to insert the words "or more." Then there is a consequential Amendment over the page which, if that were carried, would follow. That is to leave out the words, "No person shall vote for more than one candidate," and insert as suggested there. The Clause would then run:

"At a contested election for a university constituency where there are two or more members to be elected, any election of the full number of members shall be according to the principle of proportional representation, each elector having one transferable vote as defined by this Act"

My point is that the Amendment indicates that proportional representation can be applied where there are two members. It says "two or more," and in a constituency where there are only two members an election may take place on the principle of proportional representation. I say that is opposed to the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference, which says it is only in those constituencies which return more than two members, not two members, that proportional representation is to be applied.

That is a matter of merits which will arise on discussion. I do not think it is a matter for me to decide. I should like to say, before this discussion begins, that we have had at least two full-dress Debates on this subject, and therefore the discussion on this Amendment will have to be related solely to the question of proportional representation as applied to universities. It is not open to any member of the Committee who wishes to address it to deal with the general principles, which has already been very fully before the Committee. The matter must be related to the universities.

May I say I listened to the ruling given by the Chairman of Committee on 4th July, and what I understood him to say was that he would admit an Amendment which was in the name of the hon. and gallant Member whose Amendment is at the present moment before the House. But the Amendment which it is now proposed to move is perfectly different, and, therefore, it seems to me that the ruling of the Chairman on that occasion scarcely applies. Apart from that, may I suggest that, having decided to omit the Clause referring to proportional representation for all constituencies, it is somewhat out of order now to consider the same principle of proportional representation with respect to certain constituencies. Clause 15, Sub-section (1), I should say, referred to all constituencies and not exclusively to boroughs and counties, but wherever in the Speaker's Conference or in this Bill a Clause or Sub-section refers to university constituencies only it is distinctly stated, and all other Clauses and Sub-sections refer to all constituencies, whether university, borough or county. Therefore, it seems to me somewhat out of order to discuss now an Amendment which refers to proportional representation, having regard to the fact that we have already decided that proportional representation shall not be a principle of voting in any constituency.

I am obliged to the hon. Baronet, but I have already indicated that the ruling given by the Chairman on the previous occasion binds me and the Committee on this occasion.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), after the word "two," to insert the words "or more."

In moving the Amendment, or series of Amendments, which you have indicated, I shall endeavour to be as short as possible and conform to your ruling, and not attempt for a moment to cover the field already adequately covered by discussing the merits of proportional representation as a whole. I am free to confess that, with regard to the application of proportional representation to popular constituencies, I am one of those who have already voted against that application. It has been suggested to me that as I an? one of those who opposed university representation on its merits, that in attempting to apply that principle to university constituencies, I am really trying to enforce the maxim, fiat expêrimentum in corpôre vili, which I understand is translated in Ireland as "try it on the dog." I want to guard myself against that suggestion. It has occurred to me that this whole Bill represents a series of compromises which have been arrived at, and I think it would greatly ease and facilitate the passage of this measure if, as far as possible, as many of the compromises suggested, in some shape or another, subject of course to whatever modifications may be thought necessary, were accepted by this House and incorporated in the Bill. Although it is true that proportional representation hitherto has not been accepted by this Committee, nevertheless the principle does command the support of a very large number of hon. Members of this House, and I think it is desirable if possible to embody in this Bill an experiment of this sort, to which such a large number of hon. Members appear to attach great importance. The difficulty has been that in the case of the constituencies to which it was previously proposed to apply this principle, the representatives of those constituencies have almost unanimously declined the honour with the conspicuous exception of the Attorney-General. What I suggest is that in the university constituency we have found an ideal corpus on which to experiment, because one of the objections urged against proportional representation is its complexity. I think it is admitted that when you come to vote under that system you make a larger demand upon the voter than is done under the system hitherto adopted where the voter is only asked to place his mark or cross upon the voting paper. You are now asking him to declare a preference, and in a number of cases a large number of preferences.

If there is one constituency suitable for this experiment, I think it is a constituency founded upon a very high educational franchise. If there is anybody who can be expected to work a system of proportional representation correctly it must be those whose franchise is based upon an educational qualification. Proportional representation is intended to give some form of representation in this House to minorities, and there again, if there is any minority which deserves to be represented here, to which very little exception can be taken, surely it is that minority which for years, if not for generations without exception, has never succeeded in returning the Liberal candidate at a university election. Granted that it is desirable to meet the opinions of those who wish to see this system of proportional representation tried, I think we have found in the Universities the ideal constituency in which to try this experiment in a small and unobjectionable form. The most that can happen, supposing it is successful, is that some very eminent Liberal professor of a university will find his way into this House, I believe for the first time within the memory of a generation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Then I withdraw that statement. At any rate, I will say certainly since the time I have been here, and I thought for some time previously, that the university constituencies had a representation which was a monopoly of the other side. Talking about the compromises which this Bill represents, I would like to point out that many of us, opposed per se to university representation, thought we were about to get rid of plural voting. University representation is largely objectionable because it represents an acute form of plural voting. Nevertheless, we are quite willing to accept that if all these compromises are taken, and it is in the hope of smoothing the passage of this Bill by urging the adoption of a compromise which is acceptable to a great number of hon. Members of this House that I move this Amendment.

I am not prepared absolutely to oppose this Amendment. I am afraid that some of the arguments which my hon. Friend who preceded me put forward are not quite accurate. I am not so sure that he will commend proportional representation to us by representing it as an artificial system that may appropriately be put into the hands of an exceptionally learned constituency. Again, I do not think the hon. and gallant Member is quite correct in his reminiscences of university representation. May I point out that my own Constituency was at one time represented by a Liberal, and well-known Liberals have represented one or two of the Scottish universities? While I, personally, much deprecate the grouping of universities, which would bring them within the scope of this Clause, yet I cannot, for my own convenience, set aside what is considered fair and just by the House of Commons. This grouping, if it is carried out, will form a very large constituency—in my own case, almost unwieldy and unworkable, comprising some 25,000 electors instead of a little over 12,000. Anyone who has had experience in dealing with a constituency of the number of 12,000 or 13,000, consisting of educated men, with whom he has to keep up a constant correspondence, will know that to double that number will make his task very difficult indeed. Naturally I do not welcome this proposed change. I have no objection, however, if that grouping takes place under the principle of the transferable vote. I am opposed to proportional representation, but I am ready to admit it if it is to give a variation to the political colour of university representation. If there are to be three members for the universities of Scotland, I am not opposed to the idea that there should be some representation of a different party complexion from my own, and I do not think that the universities themselves would altogether deprecate it. At the same time, I personally, and for the sake of the constituencies regret that it is to be car- ried out, if it is to be carried out, by what I conceive to be the bad system of grouping.

It is very likely, indeed, that the only case in which this will apply will be the Scottish universities. You have already dealt with the case of universities with two members. We know that there is strong opposition, which I think will prove very effective, to the grouping of London with the other provincial universities, and the only group of universities returning three members may be the universities of Scotland. It may be, however, that the Redistribution Commissioner will find some other plan, and I would ask my right hon. Friend who is in charge of the Bill whether it would not be better to wait the result of the redistribution scheme before deciding this question. At present, if you pass this Amendment you are only passing something which will be hanging in the air. You do not know that there will be a single university constituency to which the words "or more" will apply, and the probability is that if, after redistribution it does apply, it will only apply to the Scottish universities. Although not fundamentally opposing this Amendment, although prepared to concede proportional representation in the case of university constituencies whilst not personally liking it, and although quite ready to look with complacency upon, and perhaps even welcome the addition of another political complexion than my own in the university representation, yet I would ask my right hon. Friend and also the Mover of the Amendment, whether it would not be better to postpone this matter to another stage, by which time the redistribution scheme will have been settled. Meanwhile I am ready, if I am to be the sole representative of a three-member university constituency, as I think will probably be the case, to pledge myself to carry on no bitter or factious opposition to any proposal of the kind. It surely would be better to wait and see whether there are any, and, if any, whether there is more than one group of universities to which it could apply.

I rise to oppose this Amendment, and I do so for some of the reasons given by my hon. Friend the Member for the Universities of Glasgow and Aberdeen (Sir H. Craik). In my opinion, it would certainly be better to postpone the consideration of this Amendment till we know how the Schedule will be filled up as regards the universities. At the present time there is not a single university in the United Kingdom to which this Amendment would refer. I understand that the principle of proportional representation can only apply to a constituency in which there are three members, and that it cannot apply to a constituency which has two members, but be that as it may, at the present moment there are only two universities in Great Britain to which this Amendment would apply. It would, therefore, certainly seem advisable to postpone the consideration of it until we know whether there is a university to which it could apply. My hon. Friend has pointed out that, provided an additional member is given to the universities of Scotland and that four universities there are grouped, you would have a three-member constituency to which the Amendment would apply, but the University of London throughout the whole length of time that it has been represented in Parliament, i.e., for over fifty years, has only had one member, and at the present time it only has one member. If we take into consideration the number of its electors, it is probably entitled to two members. There is certainly no desire on the part of the University of London or of any of its members so far as I know, nor is there any desire, so far as I have been able to ascertain, on the part of the seven or eight new universities with which it is proposed to group London, that this grouping arrangement should take place. It seems to me very advisable that we should know whether the University of London is to be grouped with these other universities before we decide on the hypothetical question whether, if such grouping should take place, the system of proportional representation should apply.

One wants to know why proportional representation is to be applied to universities. My hon. Friend (Commander Craig) said that it was the most appropriate constituency to which it could be applied to good advantage. He thought it very desirable to try the experiment upon a constituency consisting entirely of highly-educated persons with a view of ascertaining whether afterwards it could be applied to a constituency not containing highly-educated persons. It seems to me that is the very last constituency on which the experiment should be tried or in consequence of which it could be said to be of any value. Try the experiment on an ordinary constituency and then possibly you can apply it further. If you apply it to an abnormal constituency consisting only of highly educated electors capable of understanding the character of proportional representation, surely nothing will be gained even if it is found that the electors of a university are able to understand the system and to act upon it! Therefore, there seems to be no reason to apply it in the first place to a university constituency. On the contrary, it seems to me most objectionable. One reason given is that you might thus have members not belonging to one particular party. There is a general idea prevailing that universities always return members of one particular shade of opinion. There is an idea that they nearly always return Conservatives. It is quite wrong. The university which my hon. Friend represents for a great many years returned a distinguished member of the Liberal Government, who, of course, was a Radical, and in the case of my own university every member except myself was originally elected as a Liberal. The first member was Robert Lowe, the second was Sir John Lubbock, and the third member, a distinguished professor of physiology, was elected as a Unionist, but he found his position as a Unionist incompatible with his own views, and he became a Liberal. Who is to know that I shall not become a Liberal? I hope I am as liberal as any member who calls himself a Liberal. I mention that to show that there is no necessity to apply proportional representation to my university in order to secure from time to time the return of a member belonging to the Liberal party. Therefore I sincerely hope that this Amendment which, as my hon. Friend (Sir H Craik) said, is an Amendment in the air and applicable to no existing university, will not be carried at the present time. I am not going to dispute again the ruling of the Chairman of the Committees, yet we cannot help remembering that Sub-section (1) of Clause 15 applies to all constituencies, including universities, boroughs and counties; therefore it is a very strong measure, after we have already decided to omit that Subsection from the Bill, to say that we will consider it in reference to certain constituencies. For these reasons I hope my right hon. Friend will be willing to await the possibility of accepting this proposal until we know how universities are likely to be grouped in the Schedule prepared by the Government.

The hon. Baronet (Sir F. Magnus) has urged us to postpone a decision upon this matter until we have reached a later stage in the Bill and have decided how universities are to be grouped. If the hon. Baronet was not a member for a university and therefore a severely logical person, I should suspect him, when we come to that later stage and discuss how universities should be grouped, urging that it is difficult to know how it should be done if you do not know how people are going to vote in the constituencies when you have made them. The truth is there is a difficulty either way. There is no very great advantage that I can see in postponing a difficulty by persuading ourselves that there will not be any difficulty if we postpone it. I heard only the latter part of the hon. Member's speech, and from what I heard I believe that he approached this subject in a most reasonable way. There is a practical difficulty at whichever stage we attempt to discuss this question. I do not feel very hotly about the merits, because those in favour of proportional representation do not for a moment pretend that they would regard their views as met merely because the method was applied to university seats. At the same time, I hope that those who are in favour of proportional representation, just as much as those who are opposed to it, accept and adopt loyally the decisions that have been arrived at. Looking at it in that way, it seems that there is a great deal to be said for the Amendment at this stage. Let me point out, not as a matter of order, for that has to be decided by the Chair, but as a matter of merits and good sense, that it is hardly correct—I might almost say it is hardly fair—to treat this matter as if it were in substance concluded by what has already been decided in the Committee. The actual position is that the question of proportional representation arose, and so far as there was a decision it was at that stage decided on the question as to what the Boundary Commissioners were to do. Of course, it was obvious that the question as to whether or not the Boundary Commissioners should attend to the principle of proportional representation was a question which did not imfringe upon the universities because a university constituency has, among other things, this quality: that it is not defined as an area on the map which is bounded by a line which the Boundary Commissioners draw, but it is formed by reference to a different order of ideas. It is perfectly plain, therefore, that when a decision was first arrived at it was a decision which had no reference to universities.

It was an Instruction to the Boundary Commissioners, and, of course, it had no reference to the universities.

I thought that my hon. Friend would agree with me about that. It was argued then and on the second occasion it arose by reference to the supposed difficulty that would arise, especially in large constituencies, of canvassing and voting, and all the rest of it. My submission on that would be that in so far as there are difficulties of that sort—as no doubt there are—I should think that university constituencies were, upon the whole, constituencies where you could try such a method with the least prospect of its failing because of its mechanical or intellectual difficulties. I do not know that the opinions of individuals in a matter like this should be regarded as of first importance—we must consider the matter more broadly—but they have a certain interest and may sometimes offer a little guidance. During the time I have been a Member of the House—I think everybody present will agree with me—one of the most accomplished, one of the most widely respected university members in this House was the late Sir William Anson. Everybody will agree that he was an ideal university member. He was, as many know, incidentally a person who had a strong opinion in favour of proportional representation. The arguments which would have appealed to him would have appealed to him with special force if the suggestion had been made to apply it to university seats. The Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord Hugh Cecil) is not here, but we know his general opinion on this subject.

There is a wider ground I should like to urge upon the Committee. I avow quite frankly that I do not think you can, on a severely Radical set of principles, or what Radicals believe to be their principles, justify university representation. Certainly it is the deliberate opinion of a very large number of people that it is a very difficult thing to do. At the same time, if you are going to preserve in our system any variation from the normal kind of constituency, I am quite satisfied that university representation is the best kind of representation to preserve, because it really does afford an opportunity for bringing into the House of Commons men who might never otherwise get there. Many of us who were on Mr. Speaker's Conference, and who believed ourselves to be good Radicals, did honestly and sincerely in that Conference, particularly as a matter of compromise, endeavour to make arrangements to preserve university seats. I cannot charge my memory with who it was made the proposal to greatly enlarge the electorate, but I am sure it was supported by people of all sorts of parties, the reason being that if you left university seats just as they were, with people elected by comparatively small constituencies, it would be obvious, when you were greatly enlarging the average constituency, that the university seats would be bound to go and would stand condemned, simply because they were so small.

The University of London constituency is larger than many other constituencies.

The hon. Gentleman will be able to prove that his own particular case, which very properly presents itself with special force to his mind, would be an exception to the other universities. The main point is that university constituencies would be, if they were not to a large extent altered in character, abnormally and even absurdly small, and we all went out of our way in so far as that was so, speaking more particularly of Oxford and Cambridge, and resolved to try to make the constituency bigger for the very purpose of giving it a better chance of life. I do not for a moment say it has got to be determined by using the language of threat or anything so absurd. We have to look at the thing as well as we can and judge the facts. But I am convinced that if university representation is going to survive in this country it must be because those who wish it to survive can point to the fact that it is devised in such a form as does not lay it open to the charge, very commonly made against it now, that its influence upon the whole has not been for a progressive policy. I am justified in saying so, for it was a very distinguished university member as well as a great historian who said and wrote that, taking the history of English university representation as a whole, he thought it had not operated to the advantage of the progress of our own political institutions. But I am quite confident that if you want to preserve university representation you have to remember that it is a plant which may very easily be uprooted by the application of a severe and thoroughgoing radical form of policy, and it is, therefore, in a high degree desirable that it should be put in a shape which will be least open to that form of attack. It is nothing to the point to say it is a wise argument or a foolish argument. There the argument exists. No one who has any acquaintance with the trend of opinion, which is on the left in this country, will doubt that university representation can only survive if it is given that sort of character. There can be no difficulty on the score of the voters not being able to understand comparatively simple numerical forms, as there would not be any doubt that they would be able to read, master, and apply even very elaborate printed instructions, and there might even be some who had studied the matter before, which seems to be a state of grace that very few Members in the House of Commons are willing to admit; and since at the same time we want, as far as we may, to give university representation its best chance, there is a good deal to be said, apart altogether from abstract merits, for saying whether this, or something like it, should not be adopted. I do not feel hotly about it, because I do not profess that it would meet the claim of the man who believes in proportional representation, but to the best of my judgment I am urging it upon the Committee because I believe it will tend on the whole to preserve what on sentimental and filial grounds I should like to see preserved, whatever be the abstract arguments in many people's minds against it.

I wish to deal with one point in connection with university elections. I speak as one who voted against the proposal for the introduction of proportional representation in provincial boroughs, and I think there was a considerable body of opinion voting against the idea of proportional representation being tried in the boroughs on account of what the right hon. Gentleman has called the mechanical side of the question—namely, expediency. I was certainly one of those. We felt that the rights and wrongs of the matter were very difficult to decide, but looking at the circumstances under which the next General Election will be fought, and the character of borough elections and the character of borough electorates, it would be exceedingly difficult to attempt to introduce such a system as proportional representation. My right hon. Friend desires, while preserving the spirit of the compromise at the Speaker's Conference, to have an experiment in the system, which shall be at any rate possible and workable. I think the hon. Gentleman (Sir P. Magnus) has not any very close experience of borough elections. If he has been round an artisan constituency during the last hour of the poll he will realise the difficulty the average elector has in voting on a straight issue between black and white or between A. and B. Some of us opposed the proportional representation Amendment because we thought, however idealistic the scheme might be, it would be impossible first of all to instruct the voters in the method, but even more than that, it would be quite impracticable to carry out when you have, as you have there, long queues of men all waiting to vote in a great hurry just before the poll closed. In a university constituency you do not have that. I had the privilege of voting at one university election, and I think there is no great pressure with regard to polling at any particular hour of the day. It may be, perhaps, rather more in the last few hours than the first, but I think the polling goes on fairly steadily all day.

At any rate, even if it did, all the greater argument from the point of view I am taking, because it would be perfectly simple for a man having his list of candidates. There might, perhaps, be a considerable number, and he has to select them and nominate them in the order of his preference. That would be absolutely impossible, to my mind, in a working-class constituency for a workman voting in the last few hours of the poll, but it is possible for a man who is well educated and who has the time and the leisure to make a selection, and, there- fore, on those mechanical grounds I think a university constituency is an excellent one to test this scheme. I am very sorry my hon. and gallant Friend made a quotation ending with the well-known phrase corpus vile. It is not. perhaps, complimentary to the universities. I support this Amendment. I have always been a strong supporter of university representation and have always expressed that opinion on the platform and in this House, and I think it was never more necessary to have university representation than it is at present. It is because I wish to preserve that representation that I support the Amendment. If any criticism is to be levied against the form in which this Amendment is laid before the House, I should like to say that we realise that there has been considerable difficulty in this matter. First of all, as has been said, the Schedule in regard to the universities was quite blank, and, on account of the fact that on the first Subsection of the Clause the whole matter was raised, we may be open to attack on the score that the House has already decided the matter of proportional representation. It would be impossible for us under the rules of the House, I think, to produce our Amendment before that general discussion was taken. We are serious in this matter, because we wish the spirit of compromise to be preserved, and for the representation of university to be placed on its highest and best footing, and we wish the House to seriously consider this Amendment. I have, therefore, great pleasure in supporting it.

I wish first to deal with one point which has been referred to by a number of speakers. An attempt has been made to show that, after all, university representation is not, under the present system, the monopoly of one party. It has been shown that in the early days the London University did return a Liberal on several occasions. It has also been shown that the Scottish universities years ago returned occasionally a Liberal; but no attempt has been made, or can be made, to show that within the last ten years or so the universities have returned anything except Unionists. The fact is that since Home Rule became an issue the middle classes, to which the graduates of the universities chiefly belong, have gone Unionist, and in the same way, as the members of the London University have become older and have become successful in life and better off, like other people they have become more Conservative. The older universities are solidly Conservative so far as the majority is concerned. Therefore, the present system, if it is to be continued, means giving a solid body of Unionist votes to the universities—all plural votes.

Proportional representation would not apply to Oxford or Cambridge.

9.0 P.M.

I do not think I said anything about that, but the system which we have approved for Oxford and Cambridge gives the minority a very considerable chance of getting a seat for those universities. You may call it proportional representation or not, but it is covered by the Clause we are now discussing which deals with universities returning two or more members. Therefore, I think I was perfectly in order in what I said. I consented at the Speaker's Conference to a large number of things which I did not like on condition that I was to get certain things I did like, and of these things proportional representation was the one which appealed most of all to my mind. If I am now to be deprived altogether of proportional representation in any form or to any extent, then all I can say is that the compromise, so far as I am concerned, is at an end, because the reward which I was to get for my concession has been taken away. I am now asked to agree to a variety of things which I thoroughly dislike, without my price being paid to me. That I strongly object to. I agreed to the continuance of university representation, although I believe it is injurious to the country, contrary to the whole principle of democratic government, and simply an endowment of plural voting. Inasmuch as university education in this country is almost entirely a monopoly of the well-to-do classes, it is an endowment of the well-to-do classes with extra votes. I know that there are a good many poor men in Scotland who attend universities.

I do not think the whole of the incidence of university representation ought to be discussed on this particular Amendment. That is more suitable to another place. The question is whether the words "or more" shall be inserted.

Perhaps I shall be in order if I say that it was on condition that that should be done that I agreed not only to the continuance, but to the increase of university representation. Under the proposals of the Speaker's Conference three additional representatives were to be given to the universities in this country. It was on the strength of that concession of proportional representation in the form covered by this Amendment that I agreed to the extension of plural voting in cities like Manchester, because under this Bill, as it is drawn, there will be plural voting in cities like Manchester where there was none before. It was on the same condition that I agreed to the continuance of the representation of the City of London. Unless some sharing of the representation of the universities is provided for in this Bill I consider that the bargain so far as I am a party to it, has been broken and a gross unfairness has been committed. In other words, if this Clause is lost and if proportional representation goes altogether from the universities, as for the present it is gone from the boroughs, then the consideration to which I agreed has gone, and I hold myself free to vote against those details in this Bill which I dislike. Amongst those that I hold myself free to vote against is university representation and I shall take the first opportunity of doing so. I hope very sincerely that that position will not arise, and that something of the spirit of the compromise will be retained. If proportional representation is to be tried there cannot be a more suitable place for trying it than a university constituency. It is said that proportional representation is somewhat difficult to understand. I do not believe that. I believe that everybody who has taken a very small amount of trouble to understand it has always succeeded. That argument is chiefly used, in my experience, by people who have never taken the trouble to go into the matter at all. If there is any difficulty in it surely a university constituency, with its educated electorate, is the very one in which it can be tried with the least risk of its being found too difficult for the electors. My belief is that if it were tried even on a limited scale in our universities you would have an object lesson which would prove its simplicity and its many advantages. Therefore, I attach very great weight to its being retained. Moreover, I believe it would have the effect of making university representation much more perfect. This proposal will make it much easier to get representatives from the different sides of politics, who will really be distinguished sons of the universities, distinguished representatives of the learning of the universities, and will not be, as is too often the case now, merely party men who were brought in from the outside because it is known that a solid Unionist majority can return anybody whom it is convenient for the party to have in for one of these safe seats. Therefore on these grounds, that it will improve vastly university representation itself and will render it much less of a party affair, as well as on the other grounds which I have already stated, I feel bound to support the Amendment.

I would like to ask what is the alternative to this proposal? I quite understand what is to happen if proportional representation is carried for constituencies of three members, but I do not understand what is to happen if the proposal is not carried. This Motion only refers to constituencies where there are more than two members.

Under the proposals of the Committee there are to be three members for a group of English universities and a group of Scottish universities. If the proposal is carried, in those two instances we shall have proportional representation. My hon. Friend the Member for London University tells me that that is so provided it is carried. If it is not carried, then this Amendment which we are now discussing does not apply at all. My hon. Friend the Member for London University gets a separate seat, and it does not matter to him if this Amendment is carried. If the right hon. Gentleman who represents the Government tells us what the result will be, we shall be able to vote with a much clearer mind, because we shall have two constituencies each of which returns three members, and I do not know of any provision either in this Bill or under our present voting system that will lay down how the voting for those constituencies for which three members are to be returned is to be conducted.

That question raises some considerable difficulty. If proportional representation disappears altogether from this Bill and ordinary representation does not apply to these university schemes, we are in this position. Where the universities are represented by two members according to the decision this afternoon voters will have one vote only for all those constituencies, but where there are three members I am afraid that there is nothing in the Bill to indicate how those members are to be elected, and that it will be necessary for the Government to frame some new machinery to put into the Bill to meet the somewhat novel and curious situation. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has already stated, on the whole subject of proportional representation the rule has been laid down, and has been faithfully observed, that the House is to make its own decision. I have, as the House knows, always been an opponent of proportional representation, as applied generally, and especially as applied to London. But I am bound to admit that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary used a very strong argument when he said that, after all, proportional representation was first of all brought forward in reference to the Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners as to the new boundaries to be defined under this new Bill. In university constituencies to a very large extent those arguments do not apply at all, so far as Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners are concerned. He went further when he said that the main arguments that have been used, by no one, perhaps, more forcibly than myself, against proportional representation for constituencies generally, particularly for London constituencies, have little or no application to university constituencies.

Let me take one or two of them. I, and many others, have been defending the single-member constituency. We have been arguing that it is far better to have a contest between two men standing on different sides in a single-member constituency than to have a system of proportional representation on a ticket, because it is far better that the member should be brought into close touch with his constituency and the constituency should be brought into close touch with the member. Then, again, the argument that you have a great many spoiled papers, if you try this novel system of proportional representation in an ordinary constituency, scarcely applies after all to a university. There are a great many other arguments used against proportional representation, par- ticularly in the case of London constituencies, that could not be used with any force against the proposition that has. now been made, to apply the system of proportional representation to university constituencies only. I was very much impressed with the opinion that has been expressed by those who are in favour of proportional representation that, after all, if we do not apply some method of proportional representation or some such method by which minorities may have a fair chance of being represented in the universities, you are endangering the whole system of university representation. Strong supporter as I have always been of unversity representation, I listened with profound attention to the arguments that have been addressed by those who are in favour of proportional representation and who would take it at all events as some little compensation for the loss which they have sustained if in this area at all events proportional representation were allowed to be tried.

Their arguments have greatly impressed me, and I am now in this difficulty: If proportional representation should disappear from the Bill as regards university seats, I do not know exactly what machinery we are going to put into the Bill in order to allow elections to be conducted for university seats where three members have to be elected for those seats. At present there is none. We could only speculate. One speculation is as good as another. But the probability is that there may be one or two or three sets of constituencies which are so grouped that you will have this phenomenon, that there are three members elected without having any adequate or proper machinery by which these three members can be elected. That is a circumstance so conclusive that those who argue in favour of this very limited form of proportional representation have a great deal to be said on their side, but the Government leave this matter wholly to the Committee. Every member of the Committee must make up his mind for himself. We cannot have any guidance from the Government in this matter. It has been agreed on all sides to leave this an absolutely open question, and every member must therefore make up his own mind as to whether or not he will support this limited form of proportional representation.

So far as I can gather, the Amendment before the House is to insert the words "or more," and an Amendment which follows proposes that any election of the full number of members for university constituencies shall be according to the principle of proportional representation. The Clause which has been passed with reference to the universities of Oxford and Cambridge leaves the voting there in such a way that the Members of those three universities—I can speak myself for Cambridge, and my hon. Friend can speak for Dublin, and I know the view of the Member for Oxford—all wish to have an election of two members for each university conducted on the plan of proportional representation. Any other plan would be extremely inconvenient, while there would be all sorts of arrangements that would be automatically avoided if this Amendment, with others, were adopted. I do not understand my hon. Friend below me (Mr. Aneurin Williams) making such an oration about the limitation of university representation if this provision of proportional representation is not adopted.

I understand the position is this: You have this system of minority voting applying to university constituencies returning two members, and if this Amendment is not adopted there would be no provision for the case of a university constituency returning three members, and, therefore, I presume that what would happen would be that when we come to the grouping, scheduling, and setting up of university constituencies, the only thing to be done would be to cut down the university representation, retaining the existing numbers, and not giving the increased numbers which the Bill proposes. I imagine that the only thing to be done would be to take away the additional numbers suggested for the grouped constituencies, and to cut down, also, I suppose, the representation suggested for the grouped provincial and London constituencies. I would like to point out to the Committee that the suggestion in the Speaker's Conference was, not that the university representation should be maintained, but that it should be increased, and before we agree to not merely university representation, but to an increase in its amount, I think we are entitled to see that we stand by the bargain—I will not say bargain, because I know nothing whatever about any bargain which was made inside the Speaker's Conference—but by the proposal, as a whole, stated in the Report of the Speaker's Conference. If you demand additional representation as well as the maintenance of university representation, then we are entitled, on our side, to say, "Yes, but on the terms proposed by the Speaker's Conference." As between the arrangement for the minority vote as it stands in the Bill for a two-member constituency and proportional representation as applied to a two-member constituency I myself should prefer proportional representation—the principle of proportional representation with the transferable vote applied to two Members. I fully admit that it is not proportional representation in its approved form, but I believe it would be a fair plan. If you had the present minority plan which stands in the Bill and there were half a dozen candidates each getting one vote, with no arrangement as to the transfer of votes, you might have a most extraordinary result. Therefore, I would very muck sooner have, in a two-member constituency, the principle of proportional representation with the transferable vote rather than this minority vote. If you deprive me of the transferable vote, then I would sooner have the proposal that stands in the Bill.

There are two points to which I should like to call attention. First, I think the Committee and those who are interested in university representation ought to pay some consideration to the opinion of Sir William Anson, who in 1912 or 1913 introduced a Bill under which the Oxford and Cambridge and London group could return five Members. I believe, subsequently to that, he announced his intention of introducing a Bill proposing proportional representation for the university seats. We are fully entitled to-day to claim his great knowledge in support of this particular Amendment. The other point is that there is one group of university constituencies which is intended by the Speaker's Conference to return three Members. The University of Aberdeen and the University of Edinburgh have passed resolutions approving of the principle as set out in the Report of the Speaker's Conference. The business council of Aberdeen University and Edinburgh University also have specifically approved of the plan of grouping the Scottish universities so as to form a single constituency, returning three Members, on the principle of the single transferable vote. Therefore, there are, at all events, two universities in Scotland to-day to which the scheme is intended to be applied, that definitely approve of it. I do not know what the other universities have done, but, at any rate, we have the assurance that there is a good deal of support amongst the Scottish universities themselves in favour of this scheme.

I support what was said by the hon. Member for Cambridge University, and I am sure that he, just as I am, is most anxious that London University should preserve its own individuality. I thoroughly agree with the hon. Member for Cambridge University that it is much better to have proportional representation than to be in the position in which we. are left by carrying Sub-section (3). I hope the Committee will agree to the proposal.

I have been a persistent opponent of proportional representation in this House until to-day. In anything I say now I want it to be clearly understood that I am not speaking in any sense for the Scottish universities, but simply as a Scottish member looking at the question from the ordinary Member's point of view, and nothing I may say here at all points to what university members may have to say for themselves. I approach this subject entirely as an ordinary member. I speak also as a graduate of one of the universities, which is represented so ably by the hon. Gentleman who has spoken so strongly against this Amendment. The position to-day is this: You had the case of Oxford and Cambridge before the House. In accordance with the suggestion of the Conference the House has adopted the proposal of the Bill. I voted for that proposal. How, then, does one find oneself? We had a most important pronouncement from the President of the Local Government Board, who told us that the Government leave this matter to the House, and, secondly, that if an Amendment on these lines is not adopted, there is an omission in the Bill, and some machinery will have to be inserted to deal with the three-member university constituencies. Under those circumstances, I have got to make up my mind. I look, first of all, to the Speaker's Conference. I find that they suggest that the three-member university seats should have representation on a system of the single transferable vote. I know that the hon. Member who represents the university of which I have the honour of being an alumnus, has taken a very strong line against this Amendment. Why should he interfere in this part of the Bill? I know his point of view is that London should continue to have one member, and not be grouped with other universities. That can be discussed when we come to the Schedule of the Bill. I have my own view, which may or may not be the same as that of the hon. Member. At the same time, it is not a question which is in medio at the present time, and I feel that it can be better discussed at a later stage.

I can conceive no better or more suitable area for the experiment, if you like to call it so, in proportional representation, than the highly intellectual community of a university. I have always felt during the discussion on this topic that if a suitable area could be found for testing the principle let it be tried. The advocates of it first of all cut London out, and other boroughs in the country objected to the experiment. Surely a university constituency is just the very place to try it in. You have educated voters, and there will be no difficulty in explaining it to them. There is no difficulty about having meetings, because at the present time all that a candidate has to do is to send out his election address to the electors. The whole atmosphere of a university is just the very place in which this tender plant of proportional representation can be nurtured and brought up Under those circumstances I feel compelled by logic to vote in favour of the Amendment. There is one other argument which appeals to me. At a time like the present, when politics are submerged, one hesitates to refer to such subjects, but one cannot help noticing in the history of the representation of universities that you have either got from those universities people of a very rigid type of opinion, which is not always in consonance with the progressive tendencies of the age, or otherwise, in another point of view, the universities largely form a refuge for political lawyers, and in some cases for ecclesiastical laymen. On all grounds, and having regard to the fact that university elections were to be widened and more democratised, and in view of the way that we have voted as to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, why should not the younger universities follow suit, and have a little touch of this new spirit which is moving us? I propose to vote for the Amendment.

There are three reasons why I propose to vote for this Amendment. First of all, I am in favour of an experiment in proportional representation. I do not think, as the hon. Member has just said, that it can be made better than on the corpus nobile of the universities. The second reason is with regard to the two member university seats. I agree with the hon. Member for Cambridge University that this is a better method of choosing members than the method which we endorsed on an earlier Division. Looking at the matter from a purely party point of view, undoubtedly Liberal candidates would, I believe, stand a better chance of election if we retained the proposal of the Speaker's Conference, and said that voters should have only one vote in a two-member constituency. I think that that would mean that in almost all those constituencies one Liberal representative would be returned. Under a system of proportional representation for two members I am not sure that that would be so. It would not be so if Liberals were less than a third of the whole body, and under those circumstances I am not sure that they are entitled to have a member. Therefore, if one were, as I say, looking at this purely from the party point of view, one would wish to adhere to the recommendations of the Conference; but, looking at it from the broader point of view, we ought to accept what is clearly a better electoral device for dealing with two-member constituencies. The third reason is that the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference contemplated a group with three members, at all events for the Scottish universities. Unless we have a system of proportional representation, we shall have no system for electing the three members, and we should have to abandon the three-member group and either have three single-member constituencies or a group of two and a single-member constituency. I understand that the Scottish universities are quite ready to form a group with three members, and that is the third reason why I think the Committee would be well advised to accept this Amendment.

If it is understood that the system of proportional representation can only apply to Scottish univer- sities, which have accepted it, and that it is not to apply to London grouped with eight other universities, I will not further oppose the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In Subsection (3), leave out the words "no person shall vote for more than one candidate," and insert instead thereof the words "any election of the full number of members shall be according to the principle of proportional representation, each elector having one transferable vote as denned by this Act."—[ Mr. C. Roberts. ]

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (4).

I do not think these Orders and Regulations ought to be framed by Orders in Council. Any Orders and Regulations that are necessary to prescribe the method of voting ought to be in the Bill, and ought not to come under Orders in Council. I move to leave out this Subsection for two reasons: I do so, firstly, because I want to get an explanation from the Home Secretary, who is in charge of the Bill, as to why it is necessary; and, secondly, because, as I have already said, I do not think that in an important matter like this these Regulations ought to be made by Order in Council, but by the House of Commons. This is a very important Bill. Whatever view we may take of it, whether we are in favour of it or against it, nobody can deny that it is the most important measure dealing with the franchise which has been introduced for a great number of years. Under these circumstances, it is clear, when we are going to revolutionise the principle on which members are returned to this House, that all the Regulations and details which arise out of the Bill ought to be submitted to this House and approved by the House before they become law. There was a statement made earlier in the year in some of the newspapers to the effect that the Government intended, instead of placing the necessary Regulations in the Bill, to do a great deal of this work by Order in Council. I was very much impressed by that statement, which appeared before the Bill was printed, because I have an abhorrence of these Orders in Council. I have a great belief in Parliamentary government. I believe that if we are going to govern the country well that this House must assert itself, and know actually what is going on. I was very glad to see that that item in the newspapers was promptly contradicted by the Government, who stated that they were not going to deal with this matter by Orders in Council, but that they were going to submit everything to the House of Commons. On opening the Bill, however, on the first night I found that there was mixed up in this Clause this suggestion of Orders in Council. I ventured humbly to submit to my hon. Friend opposite (Lord E. Talbot) that this had no business to be in this Clause, and I still think so. This is not a party matter which gives advantages to Tories or Liberals or Radicals or necessarily works against either of them disadvantageously. It deals with something which everyone in this House should support, namely, the simple principle that this House is the supreme authority, that this House should make the Regulations referred to, and nobody else.

I hope the Committee will retain this Sub-section. The House has now decided to include in the Bill provisions, firstly, for the alternative vote in single-member elections, and, secondly, for the single transferable vote in university elections. For these purposes we need machinery, and machinery of a rather complicated kind. It is mere machinery, and it seems to me that the best way to provide that machinery is by Order in Council. This procedure has before been adopted by Parliament. I believe the rules for registration are applied under an Order in Council. This is a very complicated matter, and the Regulations, having been framed, may need to be altered as faults or defects are found. To make it necessary, whenever some small improvement is suggested in the machinery for voting or registration, to have a new Act of Parliament seems to me to be absurd. It is far better in these circumstances to have this matter dealt with by Orders in Council. I should like to add this. I stated at an earlier stage that if the proportional representation provisions were retained in the Bill, I would, before we came to the later stages of the Bill, lay upon the Table the Regulations on this matter that we propose to embody in an Order in Council. That, of course, has not been done, because proportional representation until to-day has been rather in the shade. It was struck out of the Bill, and, so far, what I suggested has not been necessary. But to-day the alternative vote and the single transferable vote have been retained in the Bill, by however a small majority, and I think it would be right that we should during the Recess get these: Regulations framed, and that we should lay them on the Table before we get to Clause 28, which is the Clause containing the definitions of the alternative and single transferable vote. Perhaps this will, to some little extent, meet the objections of the right hon. Baronet.

I have studied this matter of the Speaker's Conference, and listened to all that has been said in this House, and I do not yet know what the alternative vote is. Yet you have four candidates for one seat, does the alternative vote vote mean that the man who is lowest on that poll is cut out? Does it also imply that the next comes out if he does not get a sufficiency of votes? If that be so, I should have described the alternative vote as being proportional representation for one-member constituencies. I do not see why our brains should be puzzled by having all phases of the alternative vote—

We are not discussing now the alternative vote, but the question of the Regulations.

I imagined I was looking at it from that point of view. I am not at all clear that the House knows what they have passed. The Home Secretary has promised that he will put these Orders in Council and the Regulations on the Table, and that, I think, goes some way towards meeting the point some of us are urging. But I still think there is a great deal to be arranged before this very complicated terminology is put into a form that the common person who is not a lawyer can take it in.

I must say that, with the promise we have got, we ought to be prepared to accept the method of procedure by Order in Council, on one condition, namely, that before we reach the Schedules we should know what the exact methods of procedure are, and the details, at any rate, of the first Regulation to be framed. I hope the Amendment, therefore, will be withdrawn.

I would like to point out the difficult position in which candidates for universities are often placed by reason of proxy forms having to be taken before a magistrate where the voter resides. It is a great inconvenience, I know, in my own Constituency, where several hundred voters have been cut off on account of the inability of getting a magistrate, who resides in the place where the voter resides. If we see the Regulations on the Table, perhaps we shall get over some of the difficulties.

Surely the Committee is getting on rather difficult lines. My hon. Friend said he is willing to trust Orders in Council—a spirit of trust, I am afraid, I do not share, and I think the spirit of trust shown in the Conference has been sometimes misapplied. We are here parting with a most valuable power. You are going to deal with the transferable and alternative vote. The former is denned as meaning a vote:

I challenge the hon. and gallant Member, who is a convert to-night to the, principle of propor- tional representation, to suggest that there has been the slightest obstruction to this Bill. Therefore, that point is eliminated from consideration. What possible reason, then, is there why this should not be put in the Bill?

It is solemnly asserted that if this is put in the Schedule the Bill will not get through. That is a tremendous admission.

If it is put in the Bill it will add an enormous area for a perfectly fair discussion of matters which we might quite safely leave to Regulations.

The important point is the question of principle. Surely after the way in which this Bill has been treated, the House may be trusted not to waste time on immaterial details. One or two Members do not understand the alternative and transferable votes, and a large number of people feel that they do not understand what those Regulations are on material points. Surely, therefore, they ought to be put in the Schedule. The Committee has adopted an entirely new basis this evening. I am not complaining of it; but surely the means: of carrying out that transferable vote should be inserted in the Schedule. Otherwise the House of Commons will be giving up very great powers which it is highly desirable we should have.

I am very glad the Government are taking the line they are on this matter, because I think it would be only embarrassing the House with a lot of unnecessary details by putting them all in the Bill. It is very much as if you were to put in a Post Office Bill all the details of the way of sorting letters. It really is not necessary. In Clause 28 the principles of the matter are laid down, and the details of carrying them out are not at all essential. The hon. and learned Gentleman who has just sat down thought the quota ought to be defined. It is quite as unnecessary to define that as to define in an Act of Parliament that two and two make four, because it is a mere piece of calculation that if you have two seats to fill on the transferable vote system, then any man who gets one-third of the votes and one over must get in, and that is the quota. I venture to think that the definitions in Clause 28 do include all that is necessary for this House to lay down in the way of principles, and that in passing these definitions it will have in its hands and will control and decide all the essential principles of the matter. The rest is mere machinery, similar to the regulations by which letters are sorted in the Post Office.

I support the suggestion of my right hon. Friend that this Sub-clause should be omitted if the Government intend to pass it in its present form. It is not at all clear, in spite of the speech which has just been made. There are various methods of carrying out this matter, and the Bill does not define which one is to be adopted. The Home Secretary certainly said quite frankly that he will lay Regulations which will show the House which particular method the Government intend to adopt before we reach Clause 28. Of course we have every trust in him, but if we allow the Government the power to alter the whole method or to adopt another method of alternative vote or proportional representation by Order in Council, the House can do nothing if it disapproves. There is another method of procedure. The Committee will remember that in Bills of old it was constantly laid down that whatever office was in charge of the Bill might make Regulations under the terms of the Act and within the limits laid down in the Act, and that those Regulations should be laid on the Table of the House. If any alteration was made that was laid on the Table, and within a period of one month objection could be raised if the House desired. That is, perhaps, a power the House does not often use, but it is preferable to procedure by Order in Council. I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the Government should seriously consider, if they are not willing to lay down any terms in the Schedule of the Bill as to what they mean in the matter of the methods in which these particular votes are to be used and exercised by the electors, whether the method of Order in Council is not entirely wrong and inapplicable on this occasion and to this purpose. It would be far better to give power to the Government office to draw Regulations and lay them on the Table so that they should become law, and embodied in an Act, if no objection were raised after a reasonable period had elapsed. I feel greatly dissatisfied with this con- stant procedure by Order in Council. We have had a perfect origin of Orders in Council, and it is not desirable to extend them further and give these prerogatives which Ministers have used so freely in recent times.

May I point out that the Committee is not trusting the Government to any very great extent, because we have had the pledge that these Regulations will be put on the Table before the Committee stage is finished? We have the Report stage, and if my hon. and learned Friend is doubtful about the rights of this House being protected he will have his opportunity, after he has seen the Regulations that are proposed to be laid down, of raising this matter on the Report stage. I hope that the system of Order in Council will be preferred, and not the last speaker's suggestion adopted with the possible delay of an election for over a month, perhaps in times when it was rather urgent. I do not think the Committee runs much risk if it allows this to go by, because we shall see the Regulations before we pass the Bill, and before it is passed it will be open to any Member to oppose it.

10.0 P.M.

The whole argument of the Home Secretary against putting the Regulations in the Schedule was that from time to time it will be convenient to have opportunities of altering them. The first Regulations are not likely to be perfect, and they will have to be amended. In fact this is an experiment, and that is the argument. The Regulations which the Home Secretary is going to lay are, by his own argument, not defined. They will be subject to alteration and amendment from time to time as necessity or convenience may suggest, and therefore any argument is that the House should keep some control over these Regulations. If we commit to the Government the power of constantly altering these Regulations by Order in Council, which is what the Sub-clause means—

Of course, my hon. and gallant Friend has not seen it, but we have put upon the Amendment Paper a provision under which these Regulations must be laid on the Table of the House. It is a new Clause which I put down yesterday, and I hope that will meet him.

Of course, that is going far to meet my point, and I think my right hon. Friend is convinced that it is a substantial one. The House ought to have an opportunity of criticising and objecting to alterations of these Regulations, but, subject, of course, to agreeing to the Clause, I think the Home Secretary has gone very far to meet my point, and, I am glad that he has done so.

The hon. Baronet the Member for Lichfield (Sir C. Warner) did not quite understand what my hon. Friend proposed. He really proposed that if there were any alteration in the Regulations they should be laid upon the Table for one month.

I was referring to the speech of the hon. Gentleman who spoke against the Order in Council, and said that the House was parting with its powers, and that these Regulations ought to be in the Bill. I said I did not think they ought, because it was better, in order to save time, if the House does not approve of them that it should exercise the complete power which it will have of altering them on Report.

If the object is to save time, I think the whole Bill could be made by Order in Council. I do not think that is a good argument and I do not know what the hurry is. I do not know whether we are going to have an election before December. I am not sure that I should object to it, but I did not know that we were going to have one. I am much obliged for what the Home Secretary has done. I am quite prepared to withdraw my Amendment, but I would like to put forward this consideration. I understand that he says that during the Recess these Orders shall be drawn up and laid upon the Table, so that when we come back we shall have an opportunity of knowing what these Orders are. He has gone a little further and said there is to be a new Clause which, as I understand it, will provide that if at any future times these Regulations are altered the alterations shall lie upon the Table.

It goes further than that. It refers to the original Regulations, and to alterations.

Then the only thing I would like, if I may use the word, to stipulate for in withdrawing my Amendment is that when we come back after the Recess, and these Regulations are laid, we may have the opportunity, if we so desire, of considering them. The mere fact that they are laid is not sufficient unless we have that opportunity, and I am quite certain that the Home Secretary will agree that there is no chance of that opportunity being abused.

I cannot undertake to make an opportunity. It is a question for the Chair, but I think it will be found that when we come to discuss Clause 28, which deals with definitions, it will probably be in order to refer to these draft Regulations.

Sometimes the Chair will stretch a point and allow it if it is the evident wish of the House that it shall be done. It is no use my getting up, but if I had the assistance of the right hon. Gentleman it might be done.

Certainly I shall welcome any discussion of the Regulations.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The alterations made in Sub-section (3), at any rate, go some way to recognise the Speaker's Conference in dealing with university representation on the basis that there should be freedom of choice and an opportunity for candidates to be elected representing perhaps various views and special qualifications who would not under the old system command success. But there is still Sub-section (2), which is a much more far-reaching provision. It deals with an enormously larger number of seats, and creates a very revolutionary proposal with regard to our electoral system. Sub-section (2), the Committee will bear in mind, is tucked away, so far as the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference are concerned, among a short list of items passed by a majority, and is not among the general body of the Speaker's recommendations which deal with the method and course of election. Sub-section (2) was carried in the Committee by a majority of one, and therefore I look forward confidently to an opportunity, of which I give fair notice to all Members of the House, when this question will be again before the House on the Report stage of getting a considered opinion of the House, in view of the fact that proportional representation has been omitted and that this particular nostrum, or fad, or whatever you like to call it, this new method of election, has been included, and that although the. one was a unanimous recommendation of the Speaker's Conference and the other was only passed by a small majority, the Government has treated both these questions alike and left both to the unbiased opinion of the Committee. In view of that, I think the position with regard to this Clause is somewhat altered. At any rate, Sub-section (3) is put more or less in its proper position with regard to the findings of the Speaker's Conference, and Sub-section (2) I cannot regard as finally any part of the Bill at all. We have not only got the Report stage in this House, but it has got to be considered what action will be taken in another place, both with regard to proportional representation and the alternative vote. It seems to me that these things hang together. I am quite sure that if the Speaker's Conference had foreseen these decisions to insert the alternative vote but leave out the whole of the question of proportional representation except as applied to groups of universities, which is the present condition of the Bill, that would never have been recommended to this House for acceptance. As there are further opportunities I shall be averse, particularly as I was a member of the Speaker's Conference, to oppose the inclusion of the Clause, although in a broken and emasculated form, as part of the Bill. I hope the House will take the fullest opportunity of reconsidering the whole question on balance and of recognising that we have now put in Clause 15 not the least what was decided by the Speaker's Conference, but that we have got—owing to the play of opinion in the House and to the fact that the whole of Clause 15 has been considered with a huge interval of about two months between the consideration of the beginning of it and its present position— we have not got a balanced decision at all. In view of that I do not propose to move to omit the Clause, but I do think it necessary to point out that the Clause as it now stands has not got the smallest resemblance to what was recommended by the Speaker's Conference, that it is not finished or balanced, and cannot be regarded as anything more than a botch or makeshift. It is not even a makeshift; it is just what happened to occur, and is not a thing which, as it stands now, can be long part of any considered legislation which is intended to stand.

I totally agree with the Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto). When the Government withdrew their protection from proportional representation in a limited form, as it was in the Bill, and threw it to the wolves, they shattered the keystone of the arch of compromise which had been erected by the Speaker's Conference. I confess that if it was not for one fact only, that we have to-day had at any rate an old-fashioned and discredited limited vote withdrawn as regards universities in favour of a form of proportional representation, I should undoubtedly have gone to a Division against the Bill on Clause 15. As it is, we have decided to-day by a majority of one to alter completely our method of election. We have never had in this country the alternative vote. We have had a limited vote from 1867 to 1885, but we never had the alternative vote. We are now adopting the alternative vote in certain constituencies which is, with the second ballot, a method of election which is discredited on the Continent and in our own Colonies. Yet to-day, by a majority of one, we are deliberately adopting it. It is all very well to say it is not a matter of great importance because it is only in a few Divisions where there will be three-cornered fights. I venture to say that is perfectly wrong, and that in future three-cornered or four-cornered fights are going to be the rule and not the exception. Where you make it easy for candidates to go forward, candidates will go forward. All a man has to do is to risk £150, and by risking that comparatively small sum once he may get £400 a year for a long time. With that attraction many men will come forward. There is another point. A man may come forward knowing he will only get a comparatively small number of votes, but his number two votes will be of use in bargaining with some member of the larger parties; and to his advantage he will be urged by a few supporters to risk £150 to get perhaps £400 a year, and, at any rate, the chance of striking a good bargain with one of the other candidates. Therefore I say that in adopting this form of the alternative vote you have done a very big thing. I hope it will not be allowed to stand. I hope that on the Report stage someone will move to reverse this decision, and if it is not done in this House I trust it will be done at the other end of the corridor. But because we have a small measure of proportional representation for the universities retained I shall not ask the House to divide against Clause 15, but I do hope that the alternative vote will not stand.

It is not very refreshing to hear so many hon. Members making disclosures as to what took place behind the scenes, especially to those who had been shut out and who know nothing of the compromises which have been engineered by astute brains and accepted under pressure. And yet these things are brought here as gospel to be accepted by us all. I have already made it clear that I abhor the whole thing. I abhor Clause 15 above all else, because it is passed by only a majority of one. If it were not for the War drawing off our attention from the petty ways of this House and the larger issues, we should be stultifying ourselves in the eyes of any person who tries to follow our proceedings. We have no business to be engaged in discussing these frivolities and absurdities and introducing a proposal carried by one vote which has been discredited on the Continent. I know enough about political wirepullers in the constituencies under the present system to know that we have quite sufficient difficulties to contend with in voting for Members of Parliament to introduce one vote for one purpose and another vote for another purpose, and then be told that it will only apply to a very few constituencies, is not likely to lessen our difficulties.

I agree with what has been said, that you will invariably get a three-cornered fight, and with the conspiracy of the Front Benches we shall probably get more. It will be a poor look out for some of the candidates in a great many places where they will not be able to save their deposit. Has the Committee really considered what that majority of one vote has done if that proposal is going to remain in the Bill? I hope it will be defeated when the real sense of the House is taken upon it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Did you vote?"] No; I was doing a far more useful thing, for if I had not stayed at my tribunal its work would have stopped for want of a quorum, and I stayed there until 6.45 in order that the Army should get as many recruits as possible. I venture to assert that most of the people in Great Britain will agree with me when I say that I think I was better employed in thus assisting His Majesty to win the War instead of being: here talking about these stupidities in this Parliament. I sincerely hope that hon. Members will wake up before we get to the Report stage on this Clause, and then make mincemeat of it. Let us have a straightforward fight in these elections. This alternative vote has been wholly discredited wherever it has been tried, and I hope it will not be forced upon us at a time when we have not our full power of thinking and when many voices of those who are entitled to make themselves heard here are not able to be present.

I believe my hon. and learned Friend has forgotten that this is a non-controversial Bill. It has been proved, if proof were necessary, that it is a non-controversial Bill because we have already divided once to-day and the Division has been carried by one! I do not think it is necessary to say anything more, but the ordinary person will be rather astonished when he finds that there has been a Division which has only been carried by one on a non-controversial Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Might I ask the Leader of the House how far he intends to go? Does he intend to take the second Order (War Loan Bill)? Will he not postpone it till to-morrow?

My right hon. Friend (Sir G. Cave) is anxious to get, at all events, to the beginning of Clause 18, and, in these circumstances, we shall not take the War Loan Bill tonight, but we shall make it the first Order for to-morrow.

CLAUSE 16.—(Polls to be Held on One Day at a General Election

(1) At a General Election all polls shall be held on one day, and the day fixed for receiving nominations shall be the same in all constituencies, and accordingly the First Schedule to the Ballot Act, 1872, shall be modified as shown in Part I. of the Second Schedule to this Act.

(2) Official telegraphic information of the writ having been issued for a Parliamentary election may be given in such cases and by such persons as may be directed by His Majesty in Council, and any steps for holding an election which may be taken on or after the receipt of the writ may be taken on or after the receipt of an official telegraphic intimation of the writ having been issued.

(3) The time appointed for the meeting of the Parliament may be any time not less than twenty clear days after the Proclamation summoning the Parliament; and the Meeting of Parliament Act, 1852, is hereby repealed.

(4) Nothing in this Section shall —

( a ) affect the provisions of Section one of the Ballot Act, 1872, relating to the commencement afresh of the proceedings with relation to the election on the death of a candidate or apply to proceedings so commenced afresh; or

( b ) apply to a university election.

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (1).

This is the Sub-section which decrees that all polls shall be held on one day. There are a good many reasons for objecting to that proposal, reasons connected not with political matters, but with the question whether or not it is possible to ensure that all elections can be carried out on one day. There were considerable discussions upon this point when I was a member of the Conference, and there have been discussions upon that point at various other times. The police have always felt that it would not be possible for them to control the polling booths, and generally to preserve order, if all the elections were held on one day. That is a very important point. I do not know whether the Home Secretary, as head of the police, has asked them whether they have in any way changed their opinion. If he has not, he certainly ought to do so. There seems to be no particular reason for all elections being held on one day. The original idea was that if we had all the polls on one day it would limit the activity of the plural voter. We have limited his activity now to two votes in certain circumstances, therefore there is no particular object to be gained by having all elections on one day. If you have a vote in London and another at the extremity of Scotland, with all the polls on one day, you will not be able to record your vote in the two places. By that means you not only put a large number of people to considerable inconvenience, but you run considerable risk of having rows and disturbances, not only at the polling booths, but in all the big towns, from which the police must be withdrawn in order to spread over the different areas. In the country districts it has been the habit to collect the police from different areas on election days. I suppose you will now have all the declarations in the borough constituencies on one day. I remember that during the first two or three elections I had at Peckham—I do not suppose my experience was in any way peculiar—although they were not very hotly contested elections there was considerable disturbance afterwards, and the police had to deal with it.

Having all elections on one day not only imposes extra labour on the police in regard to maintaining order, but I cannot see what object is to be attained by it. It is the fad and cry of a particular party. I have heard no reason given for it. I have always believed it was aimed at the plural voter. As he has been dealt with, this particular provision ought to be abandoned. We have done rather foolish things in the last Clause, I would ask the Home Secretary, Are we going to do still further foolish things in this Clause? We are giving a second vote to a considerable number of people. Everybody who has a residence and who occupies business premises may have two votes. While that has been carefully considered at the Speaker's Conference and in Committee we are, by this Clause, going in some cases to prevent the exercise of that second vote. I admit there are not very many cases where that will happen, but there are some, and it seems to me to be absurd to give something with one hand and take it away with the other.

I am anxious to hear the views of the Committee upon this subject. The Bill follows the Speaker's Conference, and, of course, I am bound to adhere to that unless there is a general view the other way. Speaking only for myself, I think the holding of all polls on one day will give rise to some difficulty. The police difficulty, of course, may be exaggerated, and sometimes is, but it does exist. There is also the difficulty caused to the Post Office by the enormous number of ballot papers and other documents which will have to pass through it if all the elections are held on one day. There is a further difficulty with regard to the polling staff, the presiding officer, and others who attend the polling booth at the polling and who otherwise deal with elections. There will be a difficulty, at all events, at the first election in getting sufficient men for the purpose. There are other questions of ballot boxes and so on which I regard as of no great importance, but on the matters which I have mentioned there is real practical difficulty which I should like hon. Members to consider and to give us their views upon. The Committee might think that for the first General Election we should come to some arrangement and have two days—one day for the boroughs and one for the counties. I do not at all press that as a matter of principle. I quite understand that hon. Members may hold other views, although I think the movement in favour of having all polls on one day is rather weakened by the fact that we are so largely reducing the plural vote. One of the arguments in favour of having all polls on one day was that by that means you would prevent the exercise of the undue number of votes which some persons were thought to have. That will no longer be an operative reason, because the Committee has provisionally reduced the number of votes in practically all cases so there will be no difficulty in that respect. If it were the general view I should be glad to assent to an arrangement giving two days for the first General Election, of course adding the provision which is on the Paper in the name of my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Nield). I think that the votes taken on the first day should not be declared until all the votes had been taken. If that is done the voting on the first day cannot affect the elections on the second, and so you will attain one of the results you are seeking by having elections on one day. There is this further reason, that if we have all the elections on one day we must give, as the Bill gives, ten days between the nominations and polling. If you fix one day for the boroughs and another for the counties you can allow less time for the boroughs, and let them poll rather nearer to the day of nomination, allowing the full time for the counties only. Therefore, you need not lose time by this change, and you might effect a considerable increase of convenience.

I quite see that there is force in some of the considerations which the Home Secretary has put forward, but I am not sure how far the suggestions that he has been throwing out are really based upon some special technical inquiry as to whether these difficulties would really be found to exist. I have some difficulty in thinking that that would really be found to exist, because elections, so far as I know, do take place on one day in some of the other great democracies of the world. If it is possible, for instance, in America, I do not say that the whole Presidential election is on one day, because the actual Presidential election is carried out by persons already selected as the electoral college; but if it is possible to elect all these persons who elect the President right through all the States in one day.

HON. MEMBERS: No, no!

Other HON. MEMBERS: Yes!

I speak subject to correction, but if such a case does occur, or any case comparable with it, I should have thought that there would not be necessarily any practical difficulty here. Let me put another instance. I may be wrong in the facts, but my strong impression is that the holding of all elections on one day is the practice in some of the great Dominions. Therefore, I am unwilling to accept the mere suggestion that such a thing would be found to be practically—I will not say impossible, but inconvenient. There is this further consideration—I do not want to rub the Speaker's Conference into members of the Committee, who are perfectly free to take in this, as in other things, what course they think right; but I am confident that that part of public opinion which is strongly opposed to the preservation of the plural vote—I can say this of my own knowledge—has been, in more quarters than one, strongly urged to accept the preservation of the plural vote, as it is preserved in this Bill, by the argument that the plural vote would, to a certain extent, be automatically restricted by all elections being on one day. That undoubtedly is an argument which would be used; in fact, I have used it myself in commending these proposals to bodies of people who are, from their point of view, bitterly opposed to the preservation of the plural vote. I am not saying that because the Speaker's Conference decided it, but it is one of the elements not to be overlooked in estimating what we should do. I should rather be disposed to urge the Home Secretary not to encourage the Committee to make any change in this Subsection on this subject. I should be glad to know what, in fact, is the experience and the practice of our great Dominions. I am very likely misinformed or misled. I would like to know whether these practical difficulties really do arise.

There is a proposal from the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Nield), to which the Home Secretary has referred. I recognise that that is designed to minimise what would otherwise be an objection to a more extended time, but I am not quite convinced that it meets what some people feel. There is, undoubtedly, a certain disadvantage in there being an interval between the time people cast their votes and the time when they know the result. I have understood hitherto that that was one of the arguments which commended itself to the opponents of proportional representation. They said, "Look at the time it will take to work it out; look at the interval which will necessarily be interposed between the casting of the votes and finding out what is the result." Therefore, I am inclined to think that, although the hon. and learned Member is making a proposal which is designed to get rid of one objection, he does not get over the difficulty altogether. The preservation of plural voting is naturally regarded by a large part of the community as a blot on the whole scheme, and I am not willing to accept at this stage something which would be thought to make the preservation of plural voting more significant and give it a greater weight than I think is the result of the compromise as expressed in the Bill.

I hope the Home Secretary will not press the views that have been expressed because this Clause answers a great commercial demand that has been made for more than twenty years by the Associated Chambers of Commerce and the Commercial Travellers' Association. They have felt the great inconvenience resulting from the elections taking place on various days in various places. That is a difficulty felt by travellers who move about from city to city, and the Associated Chambers of Commerce feel the dislocation of business by elections being continued over several days. I thoroughly appreciate the position which the Home Secretary pointed out that having the boroughs on one day and the counties on the next to a certain extent alleviates the difficulty which I have just mentioned, but the Clause, as it stands, is a direct reply to the demand that has been made for very many years by the most influential of our associations. The Home Secretary wishes evidently to get over the difficulty of what is called the leading election, as happened in the case of the late Sir William Harcourt in Derby, when the cry went all through the country, "Harcourt is out!" or as happened in the case of the cry "Balfour is out!" Of course, this Clause does away entirely with any leading influence and makes the decision immediate. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman rather exaggerated the difficulty of polling. It has always appeared to me both in local elections, and also in General Elections, that the polling clerks seem to be rather at close co-operation. You see the same people every time at the same tables, and there have been frequently letters in the Press that it would be quite possible to find additional people. It has been regarded—I do not say that it is true—as a kind of perquisite granted by the solicitor to his clerks to have a day off with a little extra pay in addition to that which they would otherwise get. I do not think that you would have the slightest difficulty in getting polling clerks, and capable men at that. I hope that the Home Secretary will stand by the Clause as it is. I am sorry that he should have rather poured cold water on it, because he has great influence in the House, and rightly so, and I think that we should stand by the Speaker's Conference. I hope that I do not misunderstand him, and that he made the speech in order to elicit the opinion of the House. I am not at all concerned about the plural voter, but I am concerned about the business community and the country having a free statement of the position in the country without the influence of one election on another, and the use in various constituencies of the cry, "See how So-and-so lead." This Clause meets these difficulties, and I hope that the Committee will stand by it.

In the county in which my group of boroughs is about to be constituted four elections would be in operation on one day—two county constituencies and two town constituencies. The sheriff in the past has had the greatest difficulty in fixing the dates of the elections and in providing the necessary machinery. For myself, I have been kept travelling about to different platforms for much longer than ought to have been the case. I think the right hon. Member for Walthamstow exaggerated the effect of this proposal, simple as it is, in connection with plural voting.

A man really can vote for his business place and his place of occupation on one day. In my district, the Ayr Burghs, a voter's business place may be in Glasgow and his place of occupation in my Constituency, but he can get there from Glasgow in an hour and vote on the one day. In regard to what the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wing) said as to commercial travellers, there might be some difficulty in their case. I hope that some consideration will be given to my right hon. Friend's proposal.

The method of dealing with these Amendments is discouraging, because all the argument turns on the omission of certain words, and the arguments become exhausted before other points can be raised. I have an Amendment proposing that for borough constituencies the election shall be on the ninth day after the date fixed for election, and all polls for county constituencies shall be on the eleventh day after the date fixed for election. The right hon. Member for Walthamstow has probably not had the experience of some of us of elections. He is in the position of being able to come down to the constituency as the great man, and, after making an oratorical flight, retire again to his quarters. But ordinary Members know the drudgery of an election and know the drudgery of attending committee rooms. I am one of those who look after the work of the committee rooms themselves, and I see the necessity of breathing time for one day. I accept everything that has been said by the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) as to the property vote and the holding of the elections on the one day. Can you possibly conceive the case of a man to whom an extra day is an absolute necessity in order to poll the second vote that he possesses? If he is a decent man he is supposed to be in his own house every night, and his own house must be a reasonable distance from his place of business. If he is no longer in business he has not the second vote. I have a letter written by the Under-Sheriff of Middlesex, which is, I think, so far as counting is concerned, as populous as any county in the Kingdom, and in it he says that it is absolutely impossible for him to take the elections on one day. I am quite willing, on my subsequent Amendment, to accept the words suggested by the Home Secretary, because we have got to consider the shortage of labour and the construction of the ballot boxes and other requirements for the polling places. There is a shortage of timber, and there is an absolute shortage of clerks, a fact which the Committee must realise when big councils like the City of Westminster feel bound to introduce lady clerks into the engineers' and surveyors' offices, as well as those of rating. That shows the extent to which manpower has diminished, and under those circumstances how can you suppose that we can get sufficient clerks? Those clerks must be people of some intelligence, and presiding officers require to have technical knowledge. There must be a presiding officer in each polling station, and they must know something of the law, and have got to decide there and then knotty points that arise with regard to demands for polling papers. There are 36,000 of those polling stations throughout the country. The Under-Sheriff further points out in his letter the enormous and heavy work which any county election, and particularly a General Election, entails on the returning officer—a fact which, he adds, seems not to be fully appreciated. He also says that as the expenses of elections in future are to be borne by the State, whoever is to conduct the election will be bound by the scale of the Treasury, and the expense would be enhanced by polling all the elections on one and the same day.

He continues: The House will appreciate this fact—

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment in order that the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend who has just sat down may be proposed.

11.0 P.M.

Of course, if the discussion proceeds, the Amendment cannot be withdrawn. Perhaps the hon. Member (Mr. King) did not catch what the right hon. Baronet said. What he said was that he would withdraw his Amendment, and the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member which stands next on the Paper would come formally before the Committee, and the Debate could take place on that. That would seem to be a convenient course.

I rise in response to the request of the Home Secretary that we should express our views upon his proposal, which is nothing less than that the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference upon the question of holding all elections on one day should be thrown aside. I have supported the Government all through this Bill. I do not often have the pleasure, with a full conscience, of supporting this Government, but I have upon this Bill on every occasion, because I believed that they were sincerely trying to carry out the Bill founded upon the Report of the Speaker's Conference, and I find, in paragraph 24 of the Report, it is laid down in the most emphatic, clear, and concise manner that at a General Election all polls shall be held on one day. I am, therefore, very surprised, and not a little sorry, that we should be at all invited to depart from that recommendation.

I quoted the Speaker's Conference, and I said that, unless the Committee desired to adopt another course, I should ask the Committee to follow the Speaker's Conference. I have invited the views of the Committee before deciding what course to take, but, in view of the discussion which has taken place, I should not think of asking the Committee to depart from the recommendations.

I quite understand the position of the Home Secretary, but I wish to say that I act in agreement with a number of Radical Members, and that they have gone away to-night in sure and certain hope that this Clause would be passed as it stood. I am quite convinced it is still held as one of the doctrines of the Radical creed that at a General Election all polls should be held on one day, and that any modification of that, either temporary or permanent, would be very ill-received and would be a very great disappointment. I have been in two democratic countries on the occasion of a General Election where they have manhood suffrage, and where all the polls have been taken on one day [An HON. MEMBER: "In war time?"]—and there never has been, ever since its institution in those two countries, any difficulty whatever. It is the case in France, Switzerland, Germany and the United States, that they poll the whole of the manhood of the nation on one day, and that without any difficulty. Let me point out to the right hon. Gentleman that when you have a county council election in London you poll the whole of the county, and I believe on the last two or three occasions every seat in the county has been contested. There has never been any difficulty whatever in carrying it through. There has never been any disorder, and I think I may appeal to the President of the Local Government Board that the experience of London shows—

That may be so. We may get under a 40 per cent. poll now that we have such a large number of women voters, but you have to provide the whole machinery and the full number of papers, and of officers, and you have to provide for public order and extra strain or hours of duty on the police. The whole thing has been done in London, and it is done in many counties. Wherever there is a county council election you poll the whole of the county on one day, and the under-sheriffs of the counties, who now stand up to say that they cannot carry it through for an election, have actually carried it through in the case of county council elections, and would, therefore, seriously urge on the Home Secretary that these difficulties, which are specially raised by people like the hon. Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield), who told us in his speech before last that he was totally opposed to this Bill in every way, are not serious difficulties. The objections to this Bill are raised by such people as that, and we cannot give full weight to their arguments, which are nothing less than attempts to throw grit into the machinery, which, I think, is quite adequate and would work quite smoothly.

I wish to rise to a point of explanation. I challenge that statement. No person can say I have ever tried to thwart this Bill or that I have thrown sand into the machine. I have not.

The hon. Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) was good enough to claim for himself great magnanimity in not voting against the dictates of the Speaker's Conference on this question, while the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. King) did claim that that Conference carried decided weight and ought to be a guide to the House in this matter. I would, however, point out to both hon. Members that the Bill does not carry out the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. The Speaker's Conference says that at a General Election all polls shall be held on one day. This Clause does not provide that all the polls should be held on one day, but makes a special exception in the case of universities. It is, however, a much more important point than that which I would raise. There are certain localities in this country that make it absolutely impossible to hold all the elections on one day. If hon. Members consider the case of the Orkney and Shetland Islands, do they know that those islands take many weeks before they can carry out an election? Do they know that it is not sometimes possible, perhaps for days together, to send over communications? Do they know that it is absolutely impossible to send out the ballot boxes, or the clerks to carry on the election, for many days? Hon. Members speak of France and the United States, and difficulties of the same sort arise there. I know myself, through having had charge of education in those places, that sometimes for weeks together we can have no communication with certain island schools. We know quite well that, from circumstances that this Committee and Parliament itself cannot override, it may be absolutely impossible to communicate with or to send across the ballot boxes or the election officers to these localities. An hon. Member near me says that you can hold elections in London all on one day. What is to prevent that? You have not to cross the ocean, for which you sometimes have to wait for days together. We know perfectly well you can send ballot boxes to any part of London in a day, but you cannot send ballot boxes at any time you like to St. Kilda or various other islands. You cannot be certain in such cases that you can always hold elections on precisely the same day as you can in London or even in an electoral district such as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders).

The hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken has said that where you have a constituency divided by the ocean it is not possible to have an election on one day, but I have the experience of a part of my Constituency—the Scilly Isles—which is separated by a considerable distance from the mainland part of the constituency, but there is no difficulty in having the election on one day.

Yes; very stormy seas. The voting is held on the same day on the mainland and on the Scilly Isles. It is not always possible to get the ballot boxes collected on the same day. Sometimes they are, detained two or three days, and therefore the counting may be delayed, but that does not prevent the election being held on the same day. I certainly think that holding elections over several days does dislocate the trade and commerce of the country very considerably, and if you can get elections throughout the country held on the one day it is very desirable that it should be done. It would prevent that excitement and disturbance of the trading community which has arisen in the past. So far as my personal experiences go, I own I should be very glad to have the elections held on one day. It has generally been my misfortune that my election seems to roll on two or three weeks after everybody else has finished. That does not matter very much—it is only a question of one's personal convenience: but looking at the convenience of the community as a whole I think it is best to have the elections as far as possible on one day.

I wish to point out with regard to the difficulty represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen University (Sir H Craik) that if he looks at the Clause we are considering he will observe that the first Schedule of the Ballot Act of 1872 is only modified, as shown in Part I. of the second Schedule to this Act. If he looks at Section 61 ( a ) in the second Schedule, compares that with the Ballot Act, he will find that the modifications which are established in the Ballot Act of 1872 for the purpose of holding elections in the Shetlands and the Orkneys are still preserved in this Bill, and therefore no difficulty arises at all. I have not looked very closely into them, but I think he will find that that is so. Those particular elections are specially provided for in that Act. I think the modifications in the Ballot Act that are proposed have been carefully considered, with a view to those difficulties, and the objections therefore that he points out do not arise. Myself, I am in favour of, as far as possible, having the elections on one day. The difficulty that presents itself to my mind is the question of staffing the polling booths and dealing with the collection of votes on exactly the same day. I think you will have considerable difficulty in providing on the same day for the heavy pollings in the boroughs and also in the counties. My own feeling would be that you should take two days until you have tried it without declaring the result of any of the elections. You will probably find, with a large body of electors coming fresh to the poll, that it would be wise to take at least two days, one for the boroughs and another for the counties. It is not, speaking generally, a question of disorder, but you have to remember that you are providing now for an increased electorate of some millions, and to provide an adequate staff both in the boroughs and in the counties on the same day presents some difficulties. I should like some plan adopted such as that suggested by the hon. Member for the Ealing Division. I think the Committee would be unwise to tie themselves down to insisting upon one day and one day only.

I think the hon. Member opposite is quite right in his contention that in this particular case the Orkney and Shetland Constituency Is provided for in the Bill. That has always stood by itself and has been dealt with specially. If it is not in the Bill I think the Government will see that it is put in when we reach the proper place. I am not quite certain as to the position which the Home Secretary occupies at the present moment. I have not gathered that the Government are willing to accept this proposal. I hope the Government will not make any alteration in this compromise. It is not because the Conference recommends it that the thing ought to be forced down the throats of the House or the people, but it is because the very essence of the compromise was that people from different points of view were dealing with questions on behalf of persons outside, and they were people who took a very strong political view. We should never have got this Bill through unless we had been able to say to our friends that we had got something for what we had given away. [An HON. MEMBER: "You have not given anything away!"] I can assure my hon. Friend he is totally wrong. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon) has just referred to the position in which we stand. Since the proposals of the Conference were known we have often had to deal with difficulties at meetings of our own parties, and they do not think that we have given nothing away. I can assure the House that the duplicate vote which has been given away is something of very great value. [An HON. MEMBER: "You had not got it to give away!"] We had carried through this House a Plural Voting Bill. Even on a small point like this, the effect of departing from the compromise may be more far-reaching than hon. Members think. I assure the Committee that this is really a comparatively small point. If we are to drop all restrictions and all changes, then in future we shall have a continuance of the present system under which elections follow one after another day after day.

I wished to withdraw in favour of the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend. It was the only action of the hon. Gentleman that prevented us from at once getting to that Amendment, which would have limited us to two days, and we could have voted upon it.

I quite understand the position. The Amendment would open out all numerous objections that have been felt to the old system. There were the advantages which it gave to the plural voter. There was the interference with business. There was the fact that the result of one contest became known before another contest had taken place. There was the common practice, to which everybody objected, when a contest had taken place of all the helpers going into the neighbouring constituencies and interfering with the election there. There is every reason for trying to get the elections finished on one day. I do not think that you will do any good by having the elections on two days. The actual difficulties of carrying out elections have been very much magnified, but you are not going to reduce them by simply saying that the boroughs shall have their elections on the Monday and the counties on the Tuesday. The Conference had before them one or two very strong letters. There was one from the sheriff of one of the Ridings of Yorkshire, pointing out the impossibility of carrying out all the elections there on one day. His difficulty would not be removed by the proposal of the next Amendment, because they would still have all the county elections on the same day. They may or may not use the same staff. I know, as a matter of fact, that they use the same ballot boxes and charge two or three times for them. That is one of the principal reasons for their liking elections which extend over a week. The actual advantages that will accrue from having them on two consecutive days are not very great; and, that being so, I strongly urge that we do not raise this difficulty which would be raised if any alteration were made in the suggestion of the Conference.

May I appeal to the Committee to come to a decision? I thought that I had made my position clear. I thought that I could not do my duty until I had ascertained the views of the House, but after the discussion it is clear that there is not a general agreement to depart from the recommendations of the Conference, and therefore I ask the Committee to adhere to the Bill, not only negativing this Amendment but the next Amendment also if it is moved. I gather from the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), that in his view a case has not yet been made for this alteration from one day to two days, but that if at a later stage facts are brought forward showing that in the Colonies or where you have all the elections on one day there is inconvenience and trouble, he would not be at all indisposed to reconsider the matter. I would suggest to hon. Members who take that view that it would perhaps be the better course to be content with the discussion we have had to-night, and not to have a longer discussion at this hour, but at a later stage to revive the question and see whether the two days will not be accepted. It is within the recollection of some hon. Members that there was a Bill for holding all elections on one day which, on consideration in Committee upstairs, with the assent of both parties, was altered to provide that they should be held on two days. Hon. Members may be able to revive their recollection of that discussion at a, later stage of this Bill. I hope that at present we shall adhere to the Bill and leave the whole matter for further discussion.

The objection to holding all polls on one day has been put mainly on the ground of the difficulty of administration. There is another objection which the Committee should bear in mind. I have had experience of fighting both borough and county constituencies, and, curiously enough, both of them containing almost the same electorate—about 11,000. It is possible to fight a borough constituency in ten days, but you cannot fight a county constituency in that time; therefore the difference between one and two days would be of no good whatever. To fight my present Constituency would take at least three weeks. No one could put his case before the electorate in less than that time. That shows the difficulty of holding all elections on one day. The suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield) that you should have one day for the boroughs and another for the counties does not meet the case. If you have any difference, it must be a substantial one. If hon. Members will look at the Ballot Act they will find that the time for elections has been materially increased. The effect of the Clause will be that the borough elections will drag on over a period of time very much greater than that they now occupy. That is a consideration the Committee should bear in mind.

I hope that between now and the Report stage some further consideration will be given to this matter. Although we ought to accept the Home Secretary's advice and pass the Clause as it stands at present, it is by no means a satisfactory way of dealing with the question, and it is going to cause great difficulties. It must not be forgotten that in a borough constituency a candidate can get plenty of assistance in carrying on an election campaign, but in a sparsely inhabited county constituency he can get no assistance whatever and has to do it almost entirely himself. He has to speak two or three times a night in different vil- lages, and then it takes him three weeks to cover the ground. That is another important consideration.

The hon. Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) said that the holding of elections on one day would have no effect on plural voting. I should like him to consider my own sad case. I am entitled to vote once in Liverpool for a business qualification, but if I want to exercise my vote in respect of my residential qualification I must do so either in London or in Inverness-shire. It is rather difficult to vote in Liverpool and in either of the other two-places on one day, especially when one is conducting an election in Northumberland at the same time. As far as I can make out, I shall be totally disfranchised through the Bill. However, I quite agree with the decision to leave the Clause as it stands, but I hope the matter will receive consideration between now and Report.

The Clause opens up a much wider question than seemed to be anticipated by some of our Friends. The speech we have just listened to has opened up the whole question as to the duration of elections for boroughs and for counties. I have had experience of fighting elections both in boroughs and in counties, and I know all the details in connection with the two. I am pleased to think we shall have an opportunity of going into the whole question on the Report stage, if it is raised. The whole question of the machinery and the staffing of elections is nothing like so great as has been made out in the speeches this evening. I could at once tell anybody where to get ballot boxes, which I may inform the hon. and learned Gentleman are not, as a rule, made of timber.

They can soon be obtained. There is no argument we have heard this evening in connection with the impossibility of holding all elections on one day which was not used with regard to taking the elections for the whole of London prior to the institution of the London County Council. You have the London County Council elections all on one day, and more machinery, if anything, is necessary, because there is a larger number of voters, quite as large a number of polling places, and as large a number of presiding officers and clerks and ballot boxes, and all the paraphernalia of an election. It has been a great success. Owing to it not being the law you have never yet got a returning officer for a. Parliamentary election on one day throughout London, which is quite possible. I hope, therefore, the Home Secretary will stand by the Clause as it is, because I do not think the majority of Members thought this question was going to be raised by the position he took up in asking the advice of the Committee, and we shall be much more prepared to deal with it when it comes up again.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, at the end of the Sub-section, to add the words,

"Provided that in the event of any breakdown of the telegraphic, postal, or other arrangements essential to the efficient conduct of an election, the returning officer shall make such other special arrangements and fix such other dates as may be advisable under such circumstances."

Any of my hon. Friends who happened to be at Wick at the last election know what happened there. We were snowed up and everything was disorganised. There ought to be some provision to deal with a matter of that kind. I do not know what view the right hon. Gentleman will take. It does not transgress in any kind of way the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. It is a mere proviso which may on some occasion be perfectly useful and necessary.

I quite agree that there is no principle at all in this. It is a mere question of arrangement. I feel some difficulty in accepting the Amendment now. I think the language of the Amendment does not quite secure the object which the hon. Baronet has in view. He deals with cases where there is an actual breakdown. I think he wants also to deal with cases where there is a threatened breakdown, and to give the returning officer power to deal with the situation and postpone the election. I think as regards the first elections, that provision is already fairly and amply met in Clause 32, Sub-section (3), which says

"If any difficulty arises as to the preparation of the first register or the holding of the first elections after the commencement of this Act, the Local Government Board may by Order do any matter or thing which appears to them necessary for the proper preparation of the register or the proper holding of the elections."

With regard to the other point, we have a provision in Section 13 of the Ballot Act, 1872, which says:

"No election shall be declared invalid by reason of a non-compliance with the rules contained in the First Schedule to this Act, or any mistake in the use of the forms in the Second Schedule to this Act, if it appears to the tribunal having cognisance of the question that the election was conducted in accordance with the principles laid down in the body of the Act and that such non-compliance or mistake did not affect the result of the election."

That might be adopted in existing cases. However, between now and the Report stage I will consider whether we can draw up some Clause to deal with the matter.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider this matter seriously. There are times when people cannot get about, owing to the weather and other circumstances, and are prevented from voting. I have been stuck up myself. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will make some arrangement by which, in case of very bad weather, people will be able to vote somehow—perhaps next day.

Amendment negatived.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

I should like to reinforce what has been said by the hon. Member (Mr. Holt). This point may arise in a slightly different form before we come to the Report stage on the Second Schedule, because there the Committee comes to consider the number of days that are to elapse before the election can take place. Nineteen days, though it is adequate for counties, may be a good deal too long for boroughs. In connection with that the possibility of having a separate day for the boroughs and the counties will arise. When that point does arise I would ask the Home Secretary not to lose sight of the special case of the Scottish counties in particular. It appears from the scheme of the Scottish constituencies that some very enormous areas are going to be grouped for some of these Scottish constituencies. That is going to be a great disadvantage to the elector in these counties. He is at some disadvantage already, but now it will be greater. What my hon. Friend has said in regard to the English counties will be the case to an even greater extent in the Scottish counties. The hon. Member put the case rather from the point of view of the member who has to fight the seat. I ask the Committee not to lose sight of the point of view of the elector who lives in a very sparsely populated district who has very little chance of seeing the candidate for whom he is asked to give a vote; and if there is to be a reduction in the number of days between the Royal Proclamation and the elections, though that number of days may be suitable for the boroughs it cannot be adequate for the counties where these enormous areas have to be covered. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will remember the case of some of these county areas which seem likely to be formed in Scotland, and in particular will endeavour to do full justice to the case of the elector who lives in the sparsely populated parts who is entitled to have a fair chance of seeing the candidate and learning the candidate's view, and for whom I am sure the period that may be adequate in boroughs may be quite inadequate in view of the special circumstances of his particular case.

The prejudice—it really is very little else—of having all elections on the one day seems likely to be carried to extremes. What should be aimed at in the Bill is that every elector should have an opportunity of knowing all about the candidates before recording his vote. There is no doubt that in county constituencies, which are so different in their circumstances from an urban constituency, a greater length of time is necessary for the voters to have all the facts placed before them. Of course, the candidate who is on the spot and knows the country has a great advantage in going round the constituency compared with the member who is in the House of Commons engaged on public duties, and is not able to place his views before the electors or explain his votes and actions in the House of Commons. That is a matter which is worthy of consideration. A hurried election means an election which gives opportunities to the new candidate and gives the old member less opportunity of stating his case. What we really want is to get a free section. Undoubtedly there is very great difficulty as regards machinery in tarrying out this Clause. There are many objections to carrying out elections on one day. It is practically impossible in many cases. We must have persons in charge of the polling, persons of responsibility, who will assist the voters by explaining the laws and regulations affecting the votes. There will be a great many things which will not be known to the voters, particularly to the new voters. There is every reason why great care should be taken that persons of experience are placed in charge of the polling stations. The matter has not been quite adequately discussed, and every consideration shows that it is advisable, in the interests of the electors themselves, and with a view to obtaining from them a proper and clear expression at the poll, that the election should not be confined to one day, but should be extended over a longer period.

I desire to say only a few words on this Clause, owing to certain observations which have fallen from the hon. Baronet the Member for the Ayr Boroughs and the hon. Member for Glasgow University. Without at all pressing the Home Secretary not to consider suggestions which have been made as to sparsely populated or distant districts in Scotland, I do urge him not to attach too much weight to the remarks of the hon. Members in question urging a series of minor objections against the adoption of the principal purpose of this Clause. I do not think they represent Scottish opinion as a whole in this matter. I am sure the difficulties they suggested can be solved in Scotland, and, speaking for those I represent, I feel sure my Constituents desire the adoption in as full a measure as possible of the proposal of all elections on one day, and I deprecate, therefore, any serious departure from that proposal.

I do not think the hon. Gentleman (Colonel Greig) ought to make such remarks. There are difficulties in Scotland, in some counties very great difficulties, but I believe the constituency of the hon. Member is not of very great area at all. The hon. Gentleman should not make remarks of that kind, because they are not of any value.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 17.—(Penalty for Voting at a General Election in more Constituencies than Allowed.)

(1) It any person at a General Election votes for more constituencies than he is entitled to vote for in accordance with this Act, or asks for a ballot or voting paper for the purpose of so voting, he shall be guilty of a corrupt practice other than personation within the meaning of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883; and the expression "corrupt practice" shall be construed accordingly: Provided that—

( a ) the Court before whom a person is convicted under this Section may, if they think it just in the special circumstances of the case, mitigate or entirely remit any incapacity imposed by Section six of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883; and

( b ) the fact that any person has asked for a ballot paper in a constituency in circumstances which entitle him only to mark a tendered ballot paper in pursuance of Rule 27 of the First Part of the First Schedule to the Ballot Act, 1872, shall not, if he does not exercise that right, prevent his voting or asking for a ballot or voting paper in another constituency; and

( c ) the fact that any person who is registered in more than one division of a Parliamentary county or Parliamentary borough has asked for a ballot paper in a division of the county or borough in which he has been marked as not entitled to vote shall not prevent his voting or asking for a ballot paper in the division in which he is entitled to vote; and

( d ) the giving of a vote by a returning officer in pursuance of Section two of the Ballot Act, 1872, in the case of an equality of votes, or the asking for a ballot paper for the purpose of so voting, shall not, for the purposes of this Act, be deemed to be the giving of a vote as a Parliamentary elector, or the asking for a ballot paper for the purpose of so voting.

(2) The questions set out in Part II. Of the Second Schedule to this Act may be asked of any voter at a poll at a General Election in addition to those authorized already to be asked; and unless there is an answer given in the negative, that person shall not vote.

In the case of a university election, there shall be inserted in the voting paper, after the words "I declare that," the declarations set out in Part II. of the Second Schedule to this Act.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "election" ["If any person at a General Election"], to insert the words "wilfully or corruptly."

Hon. Members may look upon the insertion of these words as a mere matter of form, but the Amendment goes a good deal further than that. There are very definite penalties imposed for infringements of the Ballot Act and the Corrupt Practices Act, and this Bill sets up the older penalties in a much more serious form. A corrupt practice entails a penalty not only on the person committing it, but also on the candidate contesting the election. The candidate, or his agent, or some person working for the candidate in the election, very naturally tries to get all the votes he can. It is the business of the candidate's agent and active supporters to persuade every voter who will listen to their arguments that he should vote for their particular candidate. The workers for a candidate will search the register, and it is almost inevitable that they will ask some persons to vote who have already voted in another constituency. How is the agent or candidate to know whether the vote has been exercised in another constituency or not? If the person has been solicited to give his vote and gives it, a corrupt practice has been committed which, if carried to an election petition, would result in the loss of the election and the disqualification of the candidate. I am quite sure that is not intended, but some words of the kind I suggest are necessary, I think, to meet the case. It is with considerable diffidence I bring forward an Amendment on so legal and technical a matter.

These words are not contained in the corresponding Section of the Ballot Act, and I hope they will not be inserted here. On the one hand, it is very difficult to prove that a man has acted wilfully and corruptly, and to do so you would have to look into his mind to know what he meant; and if the man did not act wilfully and corruptly and only by inadvertence or something of that kind, it is very unlikely that he would be convicted of the offence. That being so, I think on the whole it is better to stick to the practice always followed now in Acts of Parliament and not insert such words, but trust to the Court to do justice.

There is a further reason for the course suggested by the Home Secretary, and that is, that in the Clause there is a paragraph ( a ) which expressly provides that if the tribunal considers that the penalty ought either to be mitigated or entirely remitted, not only the punishment but even the penalty, which is in the nature of a disqualification, may be remitted. In previous Bills dealing with plural voting we endeavoured to deal with the matter by making out a list and placing a star against the person's name, but here we are going to rely on people's good faith and desire to do their duty. There is the one reason more of trusting to the good sense which the magistrates always show.

I am very reluctant to express any opinion when such eminent legal authorities have spoken, but I think there is one part of the case which they do not quite realise. If a corrupt practice is in fact committed on the solicitation, although unknowingly and unwittingly, on the part of the candidate or his agent the candidate technically becomes disqualified and his election is lost. It will be a great difficulty, at any rate, in the earlier elections under the Bill, not knowing what person or persons are entitled to vote twice. There are many persons who have votes in different constituencies but who will never trouble because they have not business and residential qualifications. The qualifications will lead to uncertainty, and there will be great danger that in some cases the election may be upset, though in fact nothing corrupt has been done by the agent or the candidate. I do not want unduly to press this matter, but I think it is worthy of some consideration, and I shall be glad if the point can be met, either at a later stage of the Bill or on Report.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), after the word "six" ["Section six"], to insert the words "and twenty-two." Sections 22 and 6 are the penalty Clauses. The first-named gives relief. There are a great many things in which, if an offence may have been committed unwittingly by a candidate or his agent, they may obtain relief from the penalties. Anyone who knows the Corrupt Practices Act, 1883, knows that it is one of the most severe Acts that was ever drawn up: no election can be a pure and uncorrupt election under the terms of that Act, and its administration has had to be considerably modified in practice, to which common sense has had to be applied. At any rate if penalties are imposed and specially recited in this new Bill it is only right that there should be a recital of the conditions and terms under which a candidate, his agents, and his sub-agents may be relieved from the results which follow if they have technically, under the terms of the Act of 1883, committed a corrupt practice with no vicious intention.

I think there is some misapprehension here. The Bill gives power to the Courts to impose penalties under Section 6 of the Act of 1883, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman desires to add Section 22. In other words he desires to authorise the Court to mitigate the incapacity imposed by Section 22. But Section 22 does not impose any incapacity at all. Therefore, really the insertion of these words would not at all have the effect he desires—if, indeed, they had any effect.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph ( d ), to leave out the word "Act" ["purposes of this Act"], and insert instead thereof the word "Section."

I think this Amendment will be accepted by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary.

I accept it.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In Subsection (2), after the word "I" ["I declare that"], insert the words "do hereby."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]

12.0 M.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I confess I think this Clause goes too far, and I hope the Home Secretary will reconsider it. I believe it is wrong to make an offence to be dealt with under this Section a corrupt practice, and that the right course is to make it an illegal practice. There is a very great distinction, and although I have not had very great experience of election petitions, I am somewhat startled that the Committee should be content to make this a corrupt practice. If it is an illegal practice you secure all the protection that is necessary. If you make it a corrupt practice, any person who is found to have committed by an agent a corrupt practice finds his seat imperilled. It is all very well to say that under Section 22, when you have an election petition, the Court will give you relief, but it is a very serious thing to have to go to a Court in order to ask for relief, and to have your election imperilled at all, and when you remember that an agent for this purpose is not an authorised agent, but, it may be, an agent by virtue of his connection with you during the election, I think the Committee is going very far indeed in allowing this to be deemed a corrupt practice. If you want to prevent any effort being made to vote in more than the number of places in which a voter is entitled to exercise the franchise, you can do all that is necessary by making it an illegal practice; but it is really rather unfortunate to introduce in respect of this offence the very grave penalties of the Corrupt Practices Act of 1883. I believe that if the Home Secretary will take the advice of those who are more experienced in election petitions, he will be advised that it will be ample protection to make it an illegal practice. I do want to offer a word of caution to the Committee, and beg the attention of the Home Secretary to this matter, because of the very severe penalty which may be imposed. I think the Section goes too far.

I quite appreciate what my hon. and learned Friend has said, and that certain penalties are somewhat severe penalties for corrupt practices "other than personation," which are the words used in this Clause. I will consider what my hon. and learned Friend has said, and see whether it is desirable to make any change.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not mitigate the penalties.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I think it is undesirable to start to-night upon the next Clause, which is very important.

Question put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, till to-morrow (Friday), pursuant to the Resolution of the House this day.

Adjourned at Five minutes after Twelve o'clock.