House of Commons
Wednesday, August 15, 1917
Private Business
Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Bill [ Lords ],
Ordered, That, in the case of the Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Bill [ Lords ], Standing Order 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Agricultural Statistics (Ireland)
Copy presented of Abstracts showing the acreage under Crops and the numbers and descriptions of Live Stock in each county and province in Ireland for the year 1916–17 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Intermediate Education (Ireland)
Copy presented of the Report under the Intermediate Education Act as to the application of the Teachers' Salaries Grant [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed by the Secretary for Scotland:—
Burgh of Greenock
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Medway Conservancy
Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House: Copy of Statement of Receipts and Expenditure of the Conservators for the year ending 31st March, 1917 [by Act].
Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917
Ordered, "That the Select Committee on the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917, have leave to sit notwithstanding the Adjournment of the House." —[ Mr. Shortt. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
War
India
Invalided Army Officers (Pay)
asked the Secretary of State for India when the new rules will be issued regarding the position of officers in the Indian Army who, when invalided from active service, are after three months placed on furlough pay?
asked the Secretary of State for India whether, considering that the question of improved pay for sick and wounded officers of the Indian Army sent home from field service has now been under consideration since the 22nd November, 1916, and that nothing has yet been done to ameliorate the monetary difficulties from which these officers are suffering, beyond a reference to the War Office, he will now consider the question of giving these officers more generous treatment than the bare three months on Indian pay that they now receive and settle the question at once by undertaking the financial responsibility for increased allowances from Indian revenues without waiting for a final settlement with the War Office?
An agreement on this subject has now been reached with the War Office. Officers of the Indian Army and Indian Medical Service (other than those under staff leave rules) invalided from field service will receive full pay of rank and full staff pay during the first three months and thereafter for the next six months or for the period of their leave, whichever may be the shorter, full pay of rank and half staff pay of their substantive regimental or departmental appointment. The new rule will take effect from 17th February, 1917, and officers then on leave will benefit from it. Under the Resolution of Parliament with regard to expenditure in connection with the employment of the Indian Expeditionary Forces the increased charges on account of these allowances to officers of such Forces will fall on Imperial revenues.
Constitutional Reforms (Internments)
asked the Secretary for India whether he has considered afresh the cases of Mrs. Annie Besant, Mr. Arundale, and Mr. Wadia, now interned for participation in pressing for constitutional reforms in India; and whether he has read Mrs. Besant's article published in New India of 15th June, 1917?
At present I can add nothing to the previous statements in the House on this matter.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that these colleagues of his, in the cause of Indian reform, are languishing in prison while he is luxuriating in office?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this "languishing in prison" is not merely living in a most delightful hill station in the best climate in the world?
I am afraid I do not understand in the least what the hon. Member means.
Indian Medical Service (Colonel Carter)
asked the Secretary for India whether he has had any reply from the Indian Government as regards the future position of Lieutenant-Colonel R. M. Carter, I.M.S.; and can he now state what decision has been come to as regards the recognition of this officer's valuable services to the British and Indian troops in Mesopotamia?
It has been decided that Major (temporary lieutenant-colonel) Carter should receive brevet promotion to lieutenant-colonel. The promotion will be substantially antedated, but the precise date is not yet fixed. As Colonel Carter is now employed in this country, the question of his future employment in India cannot advantageously be considered at present.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the brevet promotion means an increase of pay on what he has been receiving up to now?
No. There is no increase of pay, but it means substantial improvement in position in the service to which this gallant officer has rendered such distinguished service.
Public Services Commission (Report)
asked what action is being taken or will now be taken on Lord Islington's Public Services Commission's Report; whether there is any intention of making examinations in a less universal and exclusive degree the test of fitness for appointments in the public service; whether exchange compensation is finally abolished; and whether the leave rules are undergoing the overhauling recommended by Lord Islington's Commission?
The Report is being eaxmined by the Government of India in consultation with Local Governments. Until I receive their recommendations I am not in a position to answer the latter part of the question.
Banks (Facilities for Traders)
asked whether the Bank of Madras and its branches are providing its planter customers with funds in the same manner as the Bank of Bengal; whether facilities for exporters of planters' produce are being provided by the exchange banks in Southern India; and what action the Madras Government has taken to expedite the export of tea, coffee, and rubber from Tuticorin and ports on the Malabar coast?
On the first point I have no detailed information. As regards the second, the Exchange Banks are financing all exports of war importance and as many others as practicable. I have asked the Government of India whether they have any information about the third point and will communicate the reply to my hon. Friend.
Mesopotamia
Payment of Tribute, Rent and Taxes
asked whether the sheikhs and other head men of villages in Mesopotamia in British occupation make payment to the British authorities of tribute, rent, and taxes formerly paid to the Turkish officials; and if he can state the titles and powers of the British officials empowered to collect these and other kinds of land revenue and of the higher officials who superintend them?
The Revenue administration of the occupied territory has been carried as far as possible in general conformity with the principles laid down in The Hague Convention, namely, on the basis of the system that existed prior to the British occupation. I understand that Arab tax collectors have been appointed for some districts, while in others the custom of collecting through village headmen has been revived. The Revenue administration is controlled by a Revenue Board, consisting of three British officers, who are assisted by two Assistant Revenue officers.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the administration is still being carried on under the Orders of the General commanding the troops in that part?
My hon. Friend is aware that there is a political officer as well. In the present condition of affairs in. Mesopotamia the supreme command must be in the hands of the officer who is in command of His Majesty's forces.
Criminal Judges and Magistrates
asked the titles and powers of the British officials acting in Mesopotamia as criminal judges and magistrates; and whether any code or any set of rules has been prescribed for their guidance in such jurisdictions?
Under the authority vested in him, the General Officer Commanding the Army of Occupation has promulgated Rules providing for the administration of civil and criminal justice in the territories which are effectively occupied by the Army. Under the Rules the General Officer Commanding exercises powers resembling those of a High Court, a senior judicial officer those of a district and sessions judge, a junior judicial officer those of an assistant judge and district magistrate, and an assistant junior officer those of a subordinate judge of the first class and a magistrate of the first class. There are other subordinate officers invested with civil and criminal powers in varying degrees.
Questions
Timber Rafts (Offer from Sweden and Norway)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty for what reason the Admiralty have advised the rejection of the offer made by Sweden and Norway to send over wood to this country in specially constructed rafts so as to save ship tonnage?
From an Admiralty point of view the difficulty is that of providing protection. It is plain that the steamers towing these rafts would require protection, and this could not be provided without withdrawing vessels already fully employed in protecting steamers carrying more valuable cargoes, such as foodstuffs.
Brixham Fishermen
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that Brixham fishermen taken for service with the Royal Navy have been kept in barracks for many months; and will he issue orders to ensure that those fishermen will in future not be called up until they are actually required to serve on His Majesty's ships, so that they may pursue their own calling and add to the food supply of the nation?
The fishermen to whom my hon. and gallant Friend refers are apparently members of the Royal Naval Reserve, who are given a short and necessary course of training in the depots before being drafted to sea service. The men are only called up, however, to meet actual requirements, due allowance being made for this course of training.
Is the right lion. Gentleman aware that there are some of these fishermen who have really been in naval barracks since the early days of the War, and that if they were allowed to pursue their own calling it would be a great advantage to the country?
I have stated what the general rule is. I will look into the point whether anybody has been kept there unnecessarily when they might be fishing.
Plymouth Garrison (Tolls and Ferries)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if 220 Members of Parliament signed a petition asking that the tolls and ferries in Plymouth Garrison should be made free to Service men; and, if so, whether he can report as to what progress has been made?
Yes, Sir; we have received a request signed by over 200 Members of Parliament, asking that the tolls and ferries in Plymouth Garrison should be made free to Service men. Before the receipt of this memorial, we were in communication with the locality upon the matter generally, and since its receipt we have made every effort to arrive at an agreement which would secure the prayer of the memorial on terms reasonable to the public purse. I regret to say that neither here nor in the case of Haslar Bridge, at Gosport, have we so far brought our negotiations to a successful issue. We sympathise with the prayer of the memorial, if I may say so with respect, and shall certainly do all that is possible to secure the end in view under conditions which, as I say, shall not impose an undue charge upon the public purse.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say who are the parties communicated with who will not meet the public welfare?
There are a number of interests involved, and so far we have not been able to come to terms.
Are they private interests?
Yes; I think so.
Do not they come under the Defence of the Realm Act?
We shall certainly consider the position of even coming to this House for Parliamentary powers to meet the prayer of the memorial.
Royal Dockyards (Payment for Skilled Labourers)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the fact that certain classes of work performed by skilled labourers in the Royal dockyards receive time-rate payments at a rate lower than is generally observed in the private shipyards; and, if so, whether he proposes to remedy this grievance?
Yes, Sir; the matter has been before us for some time past, and we have decided as from the 2nd September to raise the maximum time rate for skilled labourers from 31s. to 37s. (established men 35s.), exclusive of war bonus. We do not intend to abolish either the present interchangeability of skilled labourers from one class of work to another or the freedom of the dockyard officers to employ any skilled labourers on any class of work as required. But we do intend that men engaged on the more important productive work, involving the skilful use of hand or machine tools, shall have an opportunity of reaching the new maximum, and that in making their recommendations to us upon the matter the yard officials shall have regard to the time rates of wages paid to workmen of similar ability engaged on the same class of work in private yards. I should add that, in order that the matter may be treated with uniformity by the various yards, we have instructed the yard officers to submit their proposals to us for applying the new scale not later than the 18th of this month. We shall thereafter review those proposals, and they will come into operation, as already said, as from the 2nd September.
Naval Surgeons (Deductions from Pay)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, after the consideration that has now been given to the position and contracts of naval surgeons who had retired before the War with a gratuity and placed their names on an emergency list, he can state what the decision of the Admiralty is; and whether the deduction will be discontinued and the deductions made refunded?
It has been decided not to make deductions in future from the pay of naval surgeons who had retired before the War with a gratuity and placed their names on the emergency list, and that deductions already made from the pay of such officers shall be refunded.
Rhodesia
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the issue of the Report upon the question of the native reserves of Rhodesia will be accompanied by the whole evidence, including memoranda, submitted by the missionaries?
No, Sir; I do not propose to publish the whole of the evidence which necessarily contains a great deal of repetition, but the Blue Book will contain a summary of evidence.
Military Service
Classes B 3 and C 3
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can now see his way to place all men of B3 and C3 into the category to which they were allocated when they were first medically examined without waiting for each case to be tested by an invaliding board?
I am afraid that my hon. Friend's suggestion is not practicable, as it would result in placing a large number of men into categories higher than those they are now in. This would not appear to be a desirable result in the interest of the public or of the men themselves.
Invaliding Boards
asked what is the procedure which a soldier who claims to be unfit for further service must follow to have his case examined by a standing invaliding board?
The man should put forward his claim in the same manner as for any other grievance he may have— i.e., through his commanding officer.
30.
, asked what is the composition of the standing invaliding boards for dealing with soldiers considered unfit for further service; and whether their decisions are arrived at jointly or are the decisions in the hands of the senior medical officer?
Invaliding boards are convened by General Officers Com- manding when there are men put forward by the medical officers for invaliding and many of these are in permanent session. Their decisions are arrived at jointly.
What is the composition of these boards?
I think that the main question is whether the decision of these boards was arrived at jointly or severally. I do not know what the composition is.
I will repeat the question.
asked whether standing invaliding boards have been set up in each command area in accordance with the instructions of 30th June, 1917, for dealing with unfit soldiers; and whether the work of these boards will come under review by the Select Committee on Medical Examinations which has been set up by this House?
All Commands report that they have established the invaliding boards in accordance with War Office Instructions of 30th June. I do not think that the reference to the Select Committee includes the work of the invaliding boards.
Man-Power
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the competing claims of the various Departments of State upon the man-power of the country and the extra pressure of work involved on the War Cabinet, he will consider the advisability of appointing a Standing Committee vested with executive powers by the War Cabinet to co-ordinate the needs of the various Departments and to adjudicate between their respective claims?
I am not prepared to adopt my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion.
Somerset Appeal Tribunal
asked the President of the Local Government Board if has received a communication referring to the case of O'Connell S. Cormack, of 82, Wells Road, Bath; whether he is aware that this man received three months' exemption from the local tribunal, expiring on 9th October, on the grounds of domestic and business hardship, the man having nine persons dependent upon his exertions; and that the military appealed against this decision and, at the Somerset Appeal Tribunal held in Bath on Friday, 3rd August, the military representative produced no evidence upon the domestic and business grounds but raised the question of his being a conscientious objector though this question was not before the Court, the local tribunal not having heard the conscientious claim but had adjourned it for the concurrent period of three months; and whether, under these circumstances, he will instruct the Somerset Appeal Tribunal to remit the case to the Bath Local Tribunal to hear the conscientious claim for exemption?
I am communicating with the Appeal Tribunal on the subject.
Conscientious Objector
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will say for what reason Vivian Smith, a conscientious objector, until recently employed at Princetown, has been returned to the Army; whether the only occasion of offence was that Smith stopped to put on his oilskins during a heavy shower of rain; and whether there had been any other previous complaint as to Smith's working?
This man was recalled to his unit because he failed to observe the conditions on which he was released from prison and excused from military service. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative, and to the third part in the affirmative.
Engineering Apprentices
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that early this year the War Office issued notices stating that apprentices of eighteen years of age joining the Army would have the option of joining or being transferred to the Royal Engineers or the Royal Flying Corps; that several apprentices, on the faith of such notice, joined the Army, and have been drafted into Infantry regiments and refused the option of joining or being transferred to the Royal Engineers or Royal Flying Corps; and whether he proposes to take any action in the matter?
Apprentices in the engineering trades, if they pass a trade test, are posted to a technical corps, among which are included the Royal Engineers and Royal Flying Corps. I am not aware that there has been any departure from this practice, and I should be grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend if he would supply me with the regimental numbers, names, and units of the men to whom he refers.
Civil Liabilities Committee
asked whether, in cases such as that of Mrs. Morgan, of Shrewsbury, whose husband, though over age, gave up his business to serve his country and has lately been reduced according to regulation, but through no fault of his own, from captain to second lieutenant, the War Office has any power to assist Mrs. Morgan, until she can be helped by the Civil Liabilities Committee, in view of the fact that, until the Civil Liabilities Committee can decide on her case, she and her five children are reduced to starvation, as a second lieutenant's pay is totally inadequate?
This is a matter primarily for the Civil Liabilities Committee, but if the hon. and gallant Member will give me particulars of the officer's name and regiment I will see whether anything can be done.
asked the President of the Local Government Board if he will state how many persons have been appointed as civil liability commissioners; how many applications for assistance have been made to them; how many of such applications have been finally dealt with; why the remainder are unsettled; and what is the average time that elapses between an application for assistance and the commissioners' decision upon it?
There are at present 110 commissioners. They have received approximately 319,000 applications, of which 287,500 have been forwarded with recommendations to the Civil Liabilities Department and 272,500 have been finally decided by the Department. Some of the applications received are transferred to the local war pensions committees; the remainder consist partly of cases in which further evidence is required in support of the application, and partly of cases in which the claims have not been followed up by the applicants. The average time which elapses between the receipt of an application and the Commissioner's Report upon it is about three weeks, and the average time between the receipt of the Commissioner's Report and the final decision, a little more than a fortnight.
Can a second application be made when the first application has been refused if there is new evidence?
If he has any new facts to put forward.
Badges for Service Abroad
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can now make any announcement regarding the award of badges for service abroad so that men may have something to show for the time they have spent abroad?
No, Sir; I am afraid that I am not yet able to announce a decision, but hope to be in a position to do so before the House rises—if possible, to-morrow.
Station Incident (York)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether soldiers who express regret for actions for which they are sorry will in future have the expression of regret accepted, as in the case of Major Carter, who poured a cup of hot coffee over the head of a private in York station?
It all depends upon the circumstances of each case. The principle extends to soldiers as well as to civilians. In the case referred to, however, a new situation has arisen, and I understand that action has been initiated.
Can the hon. Gentleman give any instance where this principle has been utilised in dealing with a soldier?
I cannot give it offhand. If my hon. Friend has any case I will inquire.
Volunteer Training Corps (Uniform)
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether any restriction is placed upon the wearing of uniform by officers of the Volunteer Training Corps; and are they expected to change their uniform after drill and before going elsewhere?
The Regulations provide that uniform will only be worn by members of Volunteer Corps "when actually performing military duty or when attending parades or ceremonial functions of a military character." If my hon. Friend has some particular case in mind, I shall be happy to consider the matter if he will furnish me with the necessary details.
That means that directly drill is over and an officer or soldier gets home he must at once take off his uniform?
That is practically what it comes to.
Royal Flying Corps Camp, Coventry
asked whether the site of the Royal Flying Corps camp at Coventry was previously condemned as totally unfit for German prisoners, who were therefore settled in a healthy place some way off; whether it has again been condemned; and, seeing that it has a large open drain running through it, how much longer our men are to be kept in this camp?
It will be necessary to make inquiries in this matter. I have called for a report and will inform my hon. and gallant Friend of the result as soon as possible.
Notices to Quit (Board of Agriculture)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture in how many instances notices to quit have been served on tenants of land by the authority of the Board under Defence of the Realm Regulation 2 M ( f ); what circumstances are held to justify this extreme course without the previous serving of any notice under Regulation 2 M ( e ); whether, in the case of an adverse report on a tenant made by an inspection committee, the tenant is furnished with a copy of the report and given an opportunity of replying to any charges, made against him; and whether the action of the Board is based on the principle that a tenant should be given a chance of satisfying the requirements of the Board before he is evicted?
Notices under Regulation 2 M (l) ( f ) have been served in 160 cases. In 129 of these cases the landlords have been authorised to determine the tenancies and in the other thirty-one cases the tenancies have been determined by the Board. Before any notices are served the circumstances of each case are considered by the Board together with the recommendations of the agricultural executive committee. In some cases tenancies have been determined without the previous service of a notice under Regulation 2 M (1) ( e ), where the Board were satisfied that no directions to cultivate in a proper manner would be carried out satisfactorily and where it was urgently necessary in the interests of food production that there should be an immediate change of tenancy. No notice determining a tenancy is served without first giving the tenant ample time and opportunity to carry out the requirements of the Board, though he is not necessarily supplied with a copy of the report made by an inspection committee.
I beg to give notice that I shall raise this subject on the Motion for Adjournment to-morrow.
Food Supplies
Hop Crops
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether it is intended to cancel all contracts made between hop growers and brewers for sale of annual crops grown for a term of years at a fixed price per hundredweight for the period, with the result that these growers will be compelled to pay a commission to hop factors for marketing, which under existing arrangements is not payable; whether, in view of the fact that the hop acreage has already been restricted by 50 per cent. and the costs of production have enormously increased, it is the intention of the Government to withhold from the grower one-fifth of the value of his crop; and whether any compensation will be payable to the grower in consideration of the compulsory breach of existing contracts with brewers?
The Board do not as at present advised intend to cancel standing contracts between growers and brewers for the disposal of the hop crop of 1917. The Board have under consideration a scheme whereby the grower of hops will receive immediately for his hops a sum which on the average will cover his costs of production and the balance of their value when they become saleable. The third part of the question does not arise.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in present conditions hops are very often held for a very long period, and does his proposal mean that the farmer can be kept for a very long time before he receives the balance of his money?
I think that the Board of Agriculture is framing a scheme of a satisfactory character.
Fishing Regulations (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the Food Controller has by Order empowered the Board of Agriculture to authorise in England and Wales the taking of sea fish in tidal or territorial waters by any method or appliances the use of which is now unlawful, to use these methods or appliances at times and places and in circumstances otherwise unlawful, and to permit the sale of fish taken; and whether he will make representations to the Food Controller with a view to this Order being extended to Scotland?
I am aware of the Order referred to in the question. I may, however, remind my hon. Friend that the Fishery Board for Scotland already possesses wide statutory powers which do not exist in England to modify Statutes and by-laws in the direction of removing restrictions. These powers have already been exercised in respect of certain Scottish waters, and as at present advised I see no need to make the further representations suggested.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a considerable amount of food which would be available if the regulations in England were adopted in Scotland, and if they had the powers to enable this to be done?
The point is that the Fisheries Board in Scotland already possess the powers which the English Board has now been authorised to exercise.
The point which I want to get from the right hon. Gentleman is, are they going to exercise these powers the same as is being done in England?
My answer was that they have already exercised these powers in certain instances, and if applications are made in other cases they will be dealt with on their merits.
Shipping Freights
asked (1) the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he will arrange forthwith for all consumers of imported bacon, dairy produce, such as butter, cheese, and tinned and preserved foods to get the full benefit of the low Blue Book rates of freight, which is all that the shipping get for the carriage of these foodstuffs, and thus prevent anyone, or any Department, securing profits on a scale never demanded or received by shipping companies; if he will take steps to protect the consumer from indirect taxation by way of freight charges imposed by one Government Department, and put to the account of a tax-collecting Department, and at present borne by the British consumer, who is the only person entitled to the requisitioning of British shipping engaged in the carriage of these foodstuffs; (2) the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state under what Statute the Exchequer claims the profits on the carriage of bacon, cheese, butter, and tinned and preserved foods, which are now collected by the Ministry of Shipping for the Exchequer as a result of the high freights fixed by them; whether these profits made by the Government on the carriage of food ever received the sanction of a Finance Act based on a finance Resolution originating in a committee of ways and means," if not, by what legal or constitutional authority the Exchequer imposed this charge on the subject; and (3) the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller under what Statute the Ministry claims to have authority for the seizure of British shipping and the running of the same in such a manner as to mulct the consumers of bacon, butter, cheese, and preserved and tinned foods, etc., in freight charges, namely, 100s. per ton, 150s. per ton, and in some cases over 200s. per ton beyond the freight paid by the Ministry to the owners of these vessels; and whether there is any statutory authority for using property thus seized for purposes of securing profits from the British people for whose safety and defence the vessels are said to have been taken?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to these questions. I must apologise to the House for the length of this reply. As has already been explained, the policy of the Ministry of Shipping is to charge the equivalent of Blue Book rates where the benefit of the low freight would accrue to the consumer—that is, where the commodity is one of which the supplies are controlled—and to charge full market rates where the benefit of a lower rate would be likely to go down to the producer, merchant, or middleman with no advantage to the consumer. There is thus no question of mulcting the consumer; on the contrary, the policy at which my right hon. Friend seems disposed to cavil possesses the incidental advantage of diverting to the Exchequer for the benefit of the community at large (after the possibilities of direct relief to the consumer have been exhausted) certain profits which would otherwise go into the pockets of the shipowner.
I may take this opportunity to repeat that as by far the greater part of our imports are now carried for Government account, the sums thus accruing to the Treasury are not likely to be very large. I am sure that the policy I have described is one which commends itself to the House, and that the House will learn with regret that it is being challenged in the Courts by two prominent shipping companies, with which an hon. Member who is a shipowner is closely associated.
On the point of Order. Is it within the right of a Minister to express an opinion upon a legal action pending in the Courts of justice in the course of an answer to a question put in this House?
I do not know what the opinion was.
May I call your attention to this, Sir, that the Minister said the House would learn with regret that the action of the Government was being challenged in the Courts by a Member of this House?
The majority of the House probably would and the minority would not. I do not know that anybody could speak on behalf of the whole House.
Is it not an expression of opinion on the merits of the case pending before His Majesty's judges?
It is the place of the Government to keep up their end of the position.
Is not the Government expected to keep its end up in the Courts?
I cannot say what is expected.
I will complete the reply. I am sure that the policy I have described is one which commends itself to the House, and that the House will learn with regret that it is being challenged in the Courts by two prominent shipping companies, with which an hon. Member, who is a shipowner, is closely associated. In these circumstances my right hon. Friend cannot properly expect me to make any statement on the remaining part of the questions.
Arising out of that answer, may I ask on what authority the Shipping Controller is in effect laying a charge upon the taxpayers of this country without a Finance Resolution of this House?
My hon. Friend has already pointed out that this question is sub judice, and now the hon. Member expects me to give the reasons for the defence. One hon. Member is challenging us in the Courts, while another hon. Member asks me to give to the House the reasons for the defence.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that farmers have to pay anything between £60 and £100 in respect of motor-tractors under the Government freights?
That does not arise out of the question.
Would it not be better to let the public know that it is the Government and not the shipowners who are charging these high freights?
I think that the public are well seised of the fact that the profit which before went to the shipowner either now directly benefit the consumer in lower prices, or go, in the minority of cases, to the Treasury, by which the consumer indirectly benefits.
Are the goods any cheaper?
Certainly. In the case of the majority of commodities in this country, if the former freights paid had obtained up to the present time, the public would be paying more.
Is the hon. Member aware that the public are being so misled that it is incumbent upon the Government to make the matter absolutely clear?
I have endeavoured on several occasions to make it clear, and I think the public are well aware that the majority of the consumers are directly benefited; and in so far as the minority are concerned, the consumers benefit indirectly; the Government, for example, is aided to sell the loaf at 9d.
Are farmers an appropriate body to tax with these heavy freights?
:I have already said that does not arise out of the question.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what the rights of Departments are under the Defence of the Realm Act to deal with a matter of money?
I have endeavoured to explain before that the question of the Treasury making profits is purely an incidental matter. In the majority of cases the consumers benefit directly, but, in the minority of cases, where the money goes to the Exchequer, they benefit indirectly.
Barley and Maize
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that Lord Rhondda recently stated that feeding stuffs had risen in price 60 per cent. since the War; whether barley and maize have increased in price by about 200 per cent.; whether barley meal in April, 1914, was £6 15s. per ton and is now £22 per ton and maize was then 27s. per quarter and is now £5 per quarter, and the price of both these articles is still rising; and is there any reason for thinking that he will soon effect a reduction in these prices?
I am not aware that Lord Rhondda made the statement referred to by the hon. Member. The increase in the price of barley and maize has, no doubt, been considerable, but there is no evidence that the price of maize is still rising, and it is intended to reserve barley for human consumption. The Food Controller hopes to effect a sensible reduction in the price of millers' offals and feeding cakes.
Mitchelson and Company
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the connection formerly existing between Lord Rhondda, the Food Controller, and a firm called Mitchelson and Company; whether he is aware that this firm issued circulars, on which Lord Rhondda's name appeared as a member of the firm, recommending certain investments which were recommended as being very profitable, and that some of the profit that had been realised accrued in consequence of the economic conditions produced by the War; whether he is aware that Mitchelson and Company recommended these investments in consideration of some profit to themselves, and that Lord Rhondda, as a partner in the firm, participated in that profit; whether a firm called Messrs. Hooker, manufacturers of aeroplane engines, have made application for permission to borrow fresh capital for their business; whether this fresh capital is needed in order to manufacture aeroplane engines for the Government; whether Mitchelson and Company undertook to put the shares created to obtain this fresh capital on the market; whether Lord Rhondda was still a partner in Mitchelson and Company when this arrangement was made; whether Mitchelson and Company were to make any profit out of the transaction; and whether, in view of Lord Rhondda's connection with Mitchelson and Company, he will call on him to resign?
The answer to the last part of the question is in the nega- tive. For the rest I can add nothing to replies that I gave on the 11th and 18th July to the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire.
Has my right hon. Friend's attention been specially directed to the transaction of Messrs. Hooker, and can he add anything on that point?
In my previous reply the question is fully answered.
Purchasing Foodstuffs
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether before any extension is made of the policy, adopted in the case of wheat and flour, of purchasing foodstuffs at a price higher than that which will be charged to the consumer, the difference being made good out of money borrowed by the State, be will give an opportunity to the House of Commons to discuss the matter?
The Government have no present intention of extending the policy referred to, but it is not possible to give the general undertaking asked for in the question.
Light Beer (Price)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in order to protect the purchasers of light beer against profiteering, he will consider the desirability of rendering at compulsory upon the part of brewers to state the gravity of the beer they supply?
I have been asked to reply. I will consider the suggestion, but I am not clear that it is practicable, or that, if practicable, it would afford the protection which my hon. Friend desires.
Sugar Distribution
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he is aware of the difficulty experienced by the working classes in Ireland in their endeavour to get their allowance of sugar; and if, to prevent unfair purchases and distribution, he will issue sugar tickets?
I am aware that from various causes certain districts have from time to time been unable to obtain adequate supplies of sugar, but I do not think that the difficulties referred to are more acute in Ireland than in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is hoped that the new scheme of distribution will remove the inequalities which exist under the present system.
Wheat
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether a large consignment of wheat from Australia consigned to the base commandant at the port of unloading is lying at Southampton; and whether, in order to avoid further deterioration by weather and vermin, he will take steps to see that it is immediately taken over by the military authority or his Department and utilised?
My hon. Friend is, I think, mistaken. So far as I am aware, the only wheat from Australia now lying at Southampton consists of several small parcels belonging to the Royal Commission on Wheat Supplies. These are properly stored, and form part of the Government reserve stock.
Fruit (Controlled Prices)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he is aware that the Food Controller was appealed to by representative bodies of fruit growers and others not to fix the price of fruit, that Lord Devonport did refuse to do this, but that his successor decided to accept the advice of others, involving the dislocation of the trade generally; and if he will be prepared to cancel the controlled prices and leave the trade alone?
Under the conditions existing in April it was not thought advisable to fix maximum prices for fruit. As the season advanced the price of fruits rose owing to the competition of jam manufacturers, and it was thereupon decided to fix maximum prices. I know of no ground for the suggestion that this had led to dislocation of trade, and it is not proposed to withdraw the Orders in question.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if agents have been instructed by the Government to purchase fruit for the purpose of the manufacture of jam for the troops at prices fixed by the Food Controller which are more than double the market value; and whether it is his intention to stop this waste of public money by stopping the forward purchase of fruit by these agents?
Agents are invariably instructed to buy at the lowest possible price. In some cases, owing to the considerable demand, they have had to pay the maximum prices authorised by the Fruit Orders. As contracts in excess of these prices had already been made before the Orders came into force, it is reasonably clear that, but for the Orders, the prices would have been higher still.
Beer Supply Certificates
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he is aware that Messrs. Arrol, of Alloa, have failed, in spite of repeated applications, to furnish beer-supply certificates to the following licensed traders; Messrs. John Sweeney and Sons, Patrick Mulhern (successor to Hugh Roarty), and Patrick Brennan, all of Dungloe; and whether any action is being taken to ensure the issue of certificates to those entitled to receive them?
Inquiries were recently made by the Board of Customs and Excise with regard to the non-issue by the brewers in question of certificates to certain Irish licence holders in Dungloe, and they were informed that the certificates had then been issued. Further inquiry will be made into the matter.
Mutton
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is now in a position to state the price which has been fixed by the Food Controller for mutton?
No, Sir; the announcement will be made as soon as possible.
Questions
Irish Migratory Labourers (Ayrshire)
asked the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has been called to renewed complaints regarding the conditions of employment of Irish migratory labourers in Ayrshire; and whether any inquiries have been made and any steps taken to remedy such evils as have been found to exist?
I received a representation regarding this matter a few days ago. The Local Government Board for Scotland are making inquiries of the public health authority concerned, and I propose to communicate with my hon. Friend when their report is received.
Solicitors (Examination) Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Second Reading of the Solicitors (Examination) Bill [ Lords ] was agreed to on the understanding that the Government would consider the possibility of affording an opportunity for the consideration of the Bill for admitting women to the solicitors' profession which has passed through all its stages in the House of Lords; and whether he will consent to take up the latter Bill as a Government measure in the coming autumn Session?
I am not aware that there was any such understanding as that which is suggested. But with regard to the Bill referred to, I cannot make any promise that it will be taken up as a Government measure during the autumn sittings.
Hereditary Honours
asked the Prime Minister whether he will grant the Return asked for in the Motion on the Paper by the hon. Member for North Herefordshire. [Return of all Hereditary Honours granted since the 4th day of August, 1914 ( a ) to Members of the House of Commons; ( b ) to members of the Civil Service; and ( c ) to officers of His Majesty's Naval and Military Forces who have been on active service during the War.]
The answer is in the affirmative.
First Lord of the Admiralty (Salary)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will explain the reasons why the right hon. Member for Cambridge does not receive the salary of the First Lord of the Admiralty; whether the First Lord occupies the official residence and has the other privileges of his office; what salary or monetary remuneration he receives from public funds; to what amount and, if under the Estimates, under what head or class of the Votes; whether he receives a salary from or in respect of his position under the Railway Executive; and whether a Treasury Minute has been issued regulating this and similar cases?
My right hon. Friend receives no remuneration from public funds as First Lord of the Admiralty, nor did he do so in respect of any of the other posts that he has occupied under Government since the War. Following the usual practice in such cases, my right hon. Friend has continued his contractual relationship with the North-Eastern Railway. No Treasury Minute is necessary. The First Lord does not occupy Admiralty House, which is now used as offices by the Naval War Staff. A house has been provided for my right hon. Friend, and the result of this arrangement is a saving to the Exchequer.
Does the right hon. Gentleman receive the emoluments arising from his office of vice-admiral and as a major-general?
He is neither vice-admiral nor major-general.
Is it not rather peculiar that in the case of a high officer of a most important Department his salary cannot be challenged in this House, and how does the Leader of the House propose to give us an opportunity of criticising his policy in the usual way?
I shall consider that, and no doubt an opportunity can be found.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the definite opinion which has been given that Ministers should be made to take their salaries?
Health Ministry
asked the Prime Minister whether the proposed creation of a Ministry of Health is to be proceeded with or whether it is proposed to extend the powers of the Local Government Board so as to include under its supervision and control all matters relating to the health of the nation?
I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for North Somerset on the 9th August.
Shipping Companies (Profits)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that some shipping companies have had to pass their ordinary dividends for the first half of 1917 for the first time for a long period of years owing to the fact that their property has been taken at rates which involve a steady running loss, an experience unknown to unrequisitioned vessels; and whether he will consult with the Ministry of Shipping as to an equitable basis on, which privately-owned property is taken and paid for so that normal profits on peace-time basis, which are at present entirely wiped out, may become available as a subject for taxation legally and constitutionally authorised by this House?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the last part of the question, under a provision of the Finance Act of this year a return based on a 6 per cent. standard will be made by the Treasury out of excess profits if previously paid.
Property Return
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state, of persons dying in any year in the United Kingdom leaving property of the total value of between £500 and £1,000, what proportion of such property consists of house property and land?
The proportion is approximately two-fifths.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the inconvenience and hardship caused to the mothers and dependants of soldiers on account of the delay on the part of the pension officers; and will he at once take steps to make certain that Government allowances are in future paid without any unreasonable delay?
Arrangements have been made which will, it is anticipated, expedite the examination of claims. They have, indeed, already had the effect of reducing the number of claims outstanding in London.
asked the Pensions Minister if he will give the names of those serving on the newly-constituted Special Grants Committee; in what capacity is Mr. Cyril Jackson now employed under the Pensions Ministry; and what functions are now delegated to the Statutory Committee?
There is as yet no legislative sanction to the setting up of the Special Grants Committee proposed to be constituted by the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc. (Transfer of Powers), Bill, and until that Bill receives the Royal Assent, and an Order in Council is passed appointing a day for the transfer of the powers of the Statutory Committee, that body continues in the exercise of all those functions imposed on it by the Naval and Military War Pensions, etc., Acts, 1915 to 1917, and the staff of the Committee carry out their duties as heretofore.
Road Stone Control Committee
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received representations on behalf of the rural district councils in England and Wales complaining that the Road Stone Control Committee has been constituted without a representative of the rural district councils in England and Wales; whether he is a wars that the committee consists of four county surveyors, namely, the county surveyors of Berks, Hants, East Suffolk, and Herts, two municipal engineers, and representatives of various Government Departments; whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that in some counties, including the West Riding of Yorkshire, the advisory committees nominated by the chairmen of the county councils at the request of the Road Stone Control Committee to ascertain the requirements in regard to road stone of the various highway authorities do not include any representatives of the rural district councils; whether he is aware that the rural district councils are responsible for the maintenance and repair of, approximately, 100,000 miles of road, including nearly 5,000 miles of main road maintained on behalf of county councils, and that the cost of road repairs executed by rural district councils for the year ending 31st March. 1914, was approximately £3,000,000; whether, in view of the extent of the duties and responsibilities of the rural district councils in regard to road maintenance, he will accede to the representations made to him to add a representative of the rural district councils to the Road Stone Control Committee; and whether he will take steps to secure that rural district councils are adequately represented on all county advisory committees as they are on the Lancashire County Committee?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the full reply which I gave yesterday on this subject to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Torquay. I will send him a copy.
River Bother (Pollution)
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn by the Derbyshire County Council to the pollution of the River Rother and its tributaries and to the Council's suggestion that an alternative scheme be provided for the supply of water to those lands grazed by cattle through which these streams pass; and whether he will take any action in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the Local Government Board have been in correspondence with the county council who are empowered to take action under the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act, 1876. I am informed, however, by the county medical officer of health that the increase in the pollution of this river since the War is largely due to the increase in the number of coke ovens and tar distillation plants in connection with them, to the shortage of labour, and to the difficulty in obtaining spare parts for purification plants. The question whether it would be practicable to lay on water to the grazing lands abutting on the river seems to be one for the consideration of the owners and occupiers of these lands?
Housing Working-Classes
asked the President of the Local Government Board if, in connection with the provision of houses for the working-classes at the conclusion of the War and in view of the fact that private enterprise has hitherto supplied 95 per cent. of the existing houses, he will make special inquiry of town councils, councils of metropolitan boroughs, and district councils, as to the cause of the failure of private enterprise during the four years preceding the War to meet requirements and invite their opinion as to the steps which can be taken to again encourage private enterprise?
If my hon. and gallant Friend will examine the form of questions which I addressed to local authorities in England and Wales on the 28th July he will find that their opinion has been asked as to the extent to which private enterprise may reasonably be expected to provide houses for the working classes and that they have further been asked to give any other information which in their opinion bears on the question of the adequacy of accommodation for persons of the working classes. It is obviously open to local authorities to express opinions as to the cause of the failure of private enterprise.
Railway Station Cabs
asked the President of the Board of Trade what action his Department has taken in order to end the public inconvenience of taxi-cab drivers not entering the cab ranks in London railway termini; and can he see his way to recommend that the charge of a penny made by the railway companies for entry to the stations under the Act of 1907 should be suspended during the period of the War?
As at present advised, the Board of Trade do not see their way to recommend that the charge referred to should not be made. I may add that several of the railway companies have made arrangements for the delivery of passengers' luggage which should be of assistance to the public.
Mental Cases (Army)
asked the Home Secretary whether it is provided by the King's Regulations 406–408 that a man who has been discharged from the Army to a lunatic asylum can be claimed by his friends on their giving the undertaking respecting pauper patients required by Section 79 of the Lunacy Act; is he aware that in point of fact obstacles to release are frequently interposed by medical superintendents, without any proof being supplied that the patient is dangerous and unfit to be at large; and, since the unnecessary detention of such men in overcrowded asylums, due to arbitrary prohibition of this nature, is becoming increasingly prejudicial to the future prospects of ex-soldiers, who possess a civilian's right to be protected against restraint for insufficient reason, will he take steps, by Order in Council or otherwise, to make it obligatory that in every case proof must be forthcoming that continued detention is imperative for the welfare of the man himself or of the community.
The King's Regulations have not the effect suggested in the question, but I am informed by the Board of Control that no unnecessary obstacles are placed in the way of the discharge of a soldier from an asylum. I may add that where the insanity of a soldier is due to or aggravated by war service during the present War he is put on the same footing as a private patient, and Sections 72 and 74 of the Lunacy Act apply to him.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that application, according to Section 49 of the Lunacy Act, for re-examination by two independent doctors of an alleged lunatic of the pauper class is an expensive procedure and beyond the means of the friends of many patients of that class; and whether, with a view to removing any unfair disability falling in this respect on members of the working classes, he will take steps, by order in council or otherwise, to secure, where such application is made, free re-examination of the patient by two independent doctors, one of the two being, where possible, a medical man acquainted with the patient's previous history?
I do not think there is any need for the suggested alteration in the law. Power to discharge poor patients is vested in the visiting committee of the asylum, who may be trusted not to retain any patient who can properly be discharged.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it is much easier to get a private patient out of an asylum than a poor patient, and can he assure us that in cases where soldiers are concerned it will be made as easy for them as for private patients?
I am sure that is so. There is not the least desire to detain the soldier.
Representation of the People Bill
asked the Home Secretary (1) whether he can state the numbers of prospective electors for each university separately in the event of the Representation of the People Bill becoming law this year; and (2) whether he can state the number of electors separately for each university now represented in this House?
According to the latest Home Office Return of Parliamentary Constituencies (No. 120 of 1915) the number of electors for each of the universities now represented in Parliament was at that date as follows:
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there will be a considerable increase in the electorate in the Scottish Universities owing to the coming of women graduates on to the electoral roll?
There will be an increase, but I do not think it will be a very large one.
Land Commission (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will appoint a Committee to consider the applications for reinstatement of Government employés who were dismissed without trial after the events of Easter week in Ireland, 1916; if he will state the number of men dismissed from the Land Commission without trial; and if he will give these men and Mr. Thornton, national school teacher, Furbough, Galway, who was also victimised, a judicial trial or order their reinstatement?
A Committee has already inquired into this matter. It is not proposed to appoint another. Eleven members of the staff of the Land Commission were dismissed in connection with the Rebellion. As to the remainder of the question, I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on the 19th July.
Would it not be possible to revise the question of the teacher, which has not been found to be at all similar?
I will look further into the question of the teacher; the circumstances are not quite the same as in the other case. I cannot, however, promise that if the conditions that apply to the others are found to apply to this case that any distinction will be made with regard to him.
Trade in Ireland (Government Restrictions)
asked the Chief Secretary (1) if he will see that firms in Ireland that have suffered as a result of Government restrictions where they are capable of carrying out contracts on equal terms with British firms shall receive a portion of the contracts arising out of the War; (2) if he is aware of the effect of the brewing restrictions on the Irish bottle manufacturing industry in Ringsend, Dublin; if he is aware that a number of English bottle works have received contracts from Government Departments for glass materials used in connection with the War; and if he will see that the Irish bottle company shall receive their share of the War expenditure and, to prevent further unemployment, contracts will be placed immediately with the Irish firms who have offered to undertake the contracts on the same terms as English firms?
I have brought these questions to the attention of the Departments which issue contracts for supplies required in the public service. I shall be glad to bring to the notice of these Departments any particular case in which it is suggested that the conditions exist which are set forth in the questions.
asked the Chief Secretary if he will recommend the extension of the salmon fishing season in Dublin; if he is aware that the only industries in Ringsend, Dublin, are salmon fishing and bottle manufacturing; if he is aware that, owing to Government restrictions, bottle manufacturing is now almost wiped out and that nothing remains but the fishing industry; and if he will see that the season is extended and that the restriction on Saturday fishing is removed?
I am advised that the extension of the fishing season and the removal of the weekly restriction would be prejudicial to the interests of the fishermen and of the public.
Necessitous School Children (Dublin)
asked the Chief Secretary what the Government's proposals are for feeding the deserving children in Dublin for the coming winter; and if he will state the arrangements for the supply of coal to the poor?
The arrangements for feeding of necessitous school children in Dublin are in the hands of the School Meals Committee appointed by the Corporation of Dublin. who are the authority to carry out the provisions of the Education (Provision of Meals) (Ireland) Act, 1914. I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member's previous question on the 9th August as regards coal supply.
Civil Servants (Active Service)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the right of Civil servants of all grades to receive financial allowances in addition to their Naval or Army pay while serving with His Majesty's Forces, and of the fact that assessors and collectors of taxes are in effect Civil servants, the Treasury will reconsider the decision that no financial allowances can be granted to those assessors and collectors of taxes released for active service, and sanction such payments as will remove hardship, especially in the cases of those men who have given their whole time to the duties of their office, and who are at present in a worse position than the employés of local authorities and most large mercantile concerns who are similarly serving their country?
No, Sir; I cannot modify the decision which I announced on the 24th ultimo. The Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Committee will be in a position to meet cases of hardship.
Brigadier-General Colomb
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that Brigadier-General Colomb, commanding the 4th Training Reserve Brigade, was on the 28th June last ordered to attend a medical board at the India Office for medical examination as to his fitness to return to military duty in India; that he attended a board composed of Sir Havelock Charles and another Indian medical officer; that, after asking him a few questions and without making any medical examination whatever, Sir H. Charles reported that they had carefully examined General Colomb and that he was fit for service in India: that General Colomb, having been advised by his medical adviser that service in India might entail serious consequences, caused himself to be examined by a military medical board, a travelling medical board, and by Sir Ronald Ross, who all reported that he was fit only for service at home and not fit for service in India; that General Colomb sent these reports to the India Office and requested that he might be examined by a medical board differently constituted to the board who had reported before; that he was thereupon ordered to attend again before Sir Havelock Charles and the same medical officer who had before reported on him; and that they again reported that he was fit for service in India; that General Colomb on the 24th July sent a formal complaint to the Military Secretary, India Office, of the offensive manner in which at such examination he had been treated by Sir Have- lock Charles; and that General Colomb was again examined by the same board with the President of the College of Physicians; whether, before such examination Sir Havelock Charles was for about twenty minutes closeted with the President of the College of Physicians; whether he is aware that the board reported that they did not find any condition of General Colomb's organs which should prevent his serving in India; whether the India Office is aware that when serving in India General Colomb was for a considerable time laid up with dysentery and malarial fever, and has for some time past been unable to mount a horse; and whether the India Office will order a wholly independent examination of General Colomb to be made before he is sent out to India?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question, and I apologise for the length of the reply. The facts are generally as stated by the hon. Member, with the following qualifications:
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there was another examination of General Colomb by Sir W. Arbuthnot Lane, which confirmed the opinion, not of the India Office, but of the other medical boards in question?
I much regret that I never heard of General Colomb until five minutes ago, but I will pass on the observations of my hon. Friend to the Secretary of State for India.
Having regard to the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall deal with this matter on the Adjournment to-night.
Aden Field Force
asked whether the special field allowances have now been granted to the Aden Field Force similar to those granted to other Expeditionary Forces?
With effect from 1st January special field allowances have been sanctioned for the Aden Field Force on the same scale as those granted to Indian Forces in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and East Africa. I take this opportunity of informing the House that the control of military operations and the command of the troops in the Aden sphere has been transferred to the War Office.
Education Bill
asked the President of the Board of Education (1) whether he intends to allow any local authority to impose fees on scholars up to the age of eighteen in the proposed part-time con- tinuation schools; whether the rules for secondary school or for elementary school buildings will be applicable in the new continuation schools or class-rooms; (2) whether he intends in establishing a new block Grant for elementary schools to continue the conditions of the fee Grant; and, if so, whether he will make it a condition of the new block Grant that all schools in respect of which it is paid shall be free from all fees imposed on scholars?
With regard to these two questions, I would ask the hon. Member to examine the provisions of the Bill. The conditions as regards buildings, whether temporary or permanent, will be specially considered in relation to the different types of continuation schools.
Prisoners of War (British)
asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) whether he is aware that the Joint Committee, in its Report, dated 20th June, stated that, during the time, about six weeks, that elapsed between the issue of the prohibition of the sending of medicines and the proper organisation of the Invalid Comforts Fund, there were no means of sending medicines to prisoners of war and some of them suffered real hardship in consequence; will he say on what evidence this statement is founded; and whether any evidence from the Invalid Comforts Fund was taken before it was made?
I am afraid I cannot answer this question. I have not seen the evidence given before the Joint Committee, nor have I any responsibility for the statements in the Report.
asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) if he has received any evidence to show that British prisoners of war have been forcibly enrolled into the ranks of the German Army and made to fight against the Russians; if not, will he cause inquiries to be made as to the reason why British" prisoners have recently been in the firing line in Russia?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. A number of British prisoners of war were sent to work near the firing line by way of reprisal, as the German Government alleged. Pursuant to an agreement reached between the respective Governments, all these prisoners were withdrawn 30 kilometres from the firing line about two months ago.
Rejoined Civil Servants (Pay and Pension)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the fact that the rule that prevents a rejoined Civil servant from drawing in pay and pension combined more than his or her previous salary operates to deprive these people of the war bonus granted to enable employés in receipt of small pay to maintain themselves, in view of the present high cost of living; and whether he will see that this rule is altered to permit their drawing in pay and pension a sum equal to previous salary and war pension in addition?
The position is regulated by Section 20 of the Superannuation Act, 1834. But under a recent decision it is open to Departments to submit to the Treasury proposals for securing, without any infringement of this Section, war bonus in addition to old salary in the case of Civil pensioners re-employed in their old grade, or in an equally responsible capacity, by suspending their pensions entirely and paying them full salary and bonus from effective Votes.
Railway Servants' Demands
( by Private Notice )asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the threatened stoppage amongst certain sections of railway employés, and whether he can state what is the present position of affairs?
I am aware that there is said to be a possibility of a stoppage among a certain section of engineers and firemen who belong to the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen, who, I understand, represent about one-half of the locomotive drivers and firemen, in order to compel the railway companies, during the present war emergency, to recognise the principle of an eight hours' day. In view of the situation, I think it desirable to place the facts clearly before the House and the country.
In October, 1914, in view of the War, the representatives of the railway companies, the National Union of Railwaymen, and the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen entered into the following agreement, which is generally known as the "Truce":
It was resolved that, notwithstanding the notice of determination which expires on 30th November, 1914, the Scheme of Conciliation settled at the Board of Trade Conference on 11th November, 1911, shall remain in force, and that the men's side of the Boards on each of the several railways as at present constituted shall continue to act, provided that either the railway companies, the National Union of Railwaymen, or the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen may give six weeks' notice to determine the agreement, and thereupon the parties hereto shall agree as to the arrangements to be adopted for the future. It was further agreed that all existing contracts and conditions of service shall remain in operation, and that no new agreements shall be made by the companies either with deputations or conciliation boards during this suspensory period.
This truce has, by subsequent negotiations between the companies and the unions, been confirmed and strengthened, but the increase in the cost of living during the War has rendered it necessary that an improvement in the men's remuneration should be made, and by agreement between the companies and the unions a war bonus was granted in February, 1915, which has since been increased in amount from time to time by mutual arrangement. The present war bonus is 15s. per week to men over eighteen years of age, and a lower amount to women and boys, and the total cost is estimated at about £22,000,000 per annum.
Quite recently both the trade unions concerned made fresh proposals to the railway companies. The companies agreed with the National Union of Railwaymen that the war bonus should be converted into a war wage, the effect of which is to increase payments for overtime and Sunday duty at an estimated additional cost of £3,000,000 per annum.
A like offer was made to the Associated Society, but the representatives of that society stated that they were unable to enter into negotiations on the question of wage or bonus unless the principle of an eight-hour day was first conceded. I have the highest appreciation of the loyalty and zeal of all classes of railwaymen during the War, and I know that they have ungrudgingly worked very long hours, which I wish could be reduced, but it is not denied that it is absolutely impossible, under existing war conditions, to give any practical effect to an eight-hour day.
After conference with the Society's representatives and consultation with the War Cabinet, I stated on August 9th that the Government could not, during the War, consider the principle of an eight-hour day, as this was not a question arising out of war conditions, nor could an eight-hour system possibly be worked during the War, and this was freely admitted by the men's representatives. It was, therefore, clear to me that the object of the Society was to obtain recognition of the principle of an eight-hour day at a time when, owing to the national emergency and the Government control of railways, they considered that they had a favourable opportunity of dealing with the matter.
I added, however, that the present system of railway control would continue for some time after the War, and that there would then be an opportunity of raising and dealing with the question of hours In the meantime, adequate machinery existed for dealing with any question of excessive hours or insufficient remuneration arising out of war conditions
The men's representatives intimated to me that they would have to put the matter before a meeting of delegates, and I understand that this meeting has been held and adjourned. I cannot believe that, in view of the facts stated, any responsible organisation of railwaymen, who have hitherto played such a splendid part in assisting the nation in its emergency, will jeopardise the prosecution of the War by authorising or taking part in a stoppage at this critical time. But I am to intimate, on behalf of the Government, that the necessary steps are being taken to deal with any emergency that may arise.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the National Union, which speaks for approximately 400,000 men, including the majority of the engine-men and firemen, know nothing officially of this threat, and have not been concerned in it? Is he also aware that up to now every agreement made, either with the Board or Trade or with the railway companies, has been strictly observed by the Union, and endorsed by the men?
I certainly have no reason whatever to doubt the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman. I should very much doubt whether men belonging to the National Union of Railway-men would in any way interfere with the existing agreement.
Merchant Officers and Seamen
( by Private Notice )asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, before the Motion for the Adjournment, he can make any statement with regard to the arrangements which have been made by the Board of Trade for the benefit of captains, officers and seamen of merchant ships?
I have had a statement prepared giving the information desired by the hon. Member, and it will be circulated immediately.
In a White Paper?
In the form of a White Paper.
Metropolitan Water Board
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the action of the Metropolitan. Water Board in withdrawing water supply from occupied houses not provided with storage cisterns; whether such action is in pursuance of Statutory powers conferred when there was no continuous water supply; whether a large proportion, estimated at 10 per cent., of the houses in. London are without storage cisterns; and whether, in view of the fact that such cisterns are generally condemned as insanitary by medical officers of health and are in any case unprocurable in quantity at the present time, he will consider the desirability of introducing legislation on the subject?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I have been in communication with the Metropolitan Water Board as to this matter. The powers under which the Board are acting were obtained or confirmed since the water supply to their area has become constant. The number of houses in London without storage cisterns is not exactly known. I am informed that the objections taken by medical officers of health to storage cisterns are generally to their position or to the fact that they are uncovered. The Water Board are aware of the difficulty of procuring cisterns at the present time, and I am informed that in the large majority of cases in which the Metropolitan Water Board have taken action it is merely a question of reconnecting or repairing a cistern previously existing. I cannot undertake to introduce legislation on the subject.
Coleraine House, Dublin (Electric Lighting)
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the electric light contractors of Dublin were asked by the Board of Works to estimate for the electric lighting of Coleraine House, Dublin; that after receiving estimates they approached the General Post Office, Telegraph Department, and asked them to undertake the work; if he will state whether it is the intention of the Post Office or other such Government Departments to enter into competition with outside contractors; and what action he intends to take in the matter?
Five Dublin firms were invited by the Board of Works to tender for the electric lighting of the office of the Registrar of Business Names at Coleraine House. Three tenders were received, but all were much in excess of the Board's estimate, and inquiry showed that there was no chance of obtaining a substantial modification of any of them. The work was very urgent, and the Commissioners, therefore, to avoid further delay in negotiation, deemed it expedient to ask the Post Office to undertake the work, more particularly as the necessity for the works at Coleraine House arose from the fact that a portion of the General Register Office which would otherwise have been available for the registration of business names, and been more suitable for the purpose, had been temporarily assigned to the Post Office and electric lighting works were being carried out there by that Department. No action is, in my opinion, required.
House of Commons (Ladies' Grille)
asked the First Commissioner of Works if he will give the estimated cost and number of men expected to be employed on the suggested work of the removal of the grille from the Ladies' Gallery; and if a club would be permitted to carry out similar alterations at the present time?
The estimated cost is £5, and the work should require an. average of two men of various trades for three or four days. I am not aware of any statutory obstacle to private demolition, work of this estimated cost, but the matter is not within my responsibility.
Martin's Divorce Bill [Lords]
Reported, without Amendment, from the Select Committee on Divorce Bills; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time.
Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings in the House of Lords on the Second Reading of Martin's Divorce Bill [ Lords ], together with the documents deposited in the case, be returned to the House of Lords.—[ Mr. Clyde. ]
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,
New Ministries Bill, with Amendments.
New Ministries Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 91.]
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
May I ask the Leader of the House if he can make any statement about the business of the House for to-day and to-morrow?
The necessity for passing the Munitions of War Bill before the Adjournment has made it more difficult for the Government to carry out the programme which they have set before the House.
To-day, after the Petroleum (Production) Bill has been introduced under the Ten Minutes' Rule, the first Order is the Vote for the Ladies' Grille. That is put down in the expectation that there will be no debate, and it would not have been put down if I thought there would be a debate. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary proposes to stop the consideration of the Representation of the People Bill somewhere about ten o'clock, in order that the Munitions of War Bill may be taken and, I hope, carried through all its stages. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"], This will mean that some business will have to be taken to-morrow, including whatever part of the Representation of the People Bill has not been reached to-night. If insufficient time is left for the Motion for the Adjournment to-morrow, then, of course, should the House so desire, that Motion will be carried over to Friday.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no adequate time has been given to consider the new Clauses put on the Paper by the Government to the Munitions of War Bill, and that it is impossible for the House to give proper consideration to them after ten o'clock at night?
This is, if anything can be, a war measure. It was brought in, much against the will both of myself and my right hon. Friend, as the result of negotiations. It is desired both by employers and representatives of trade unions, and my belief is that in these circumstances the House will be ready to give it facilities.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is not an agreed Bill, that at least one of the trade unions which is most vitally affected has not agreed to its provisions and has already protested against it being taken; and, in these circumstances, does he propose to rush it through in the manner suggested?
I was not aware of that. My information was that, in the main, it was desired both by workers and employers, and probably if the hon. Member had been here last night he would have been able to put the questions he is now addressing to me.
I wish to give notice that if this Bill reaches the Report stage I will then raise the question whether the Bill in the form in which it leaves the Committee is not a different Bill from the Bill which was read a second time.
Could the right hon. Gentleman not take the Motion for the Adjournment as the first Order to-morrow, and if there is not sufficient time to-morrow to take what remains of the Representation of the People Bill, he might take that on Friday instead of the arrangement for taking the Representation of the People Bill first, and the Motion for the Adjournment on Friday?
I have carefully considered that, and consulted my Noble Friend and his colleagues, and we have come to the conclusion that the course I have recommended is on the whole the most convenient.
Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the House to sit to-morrow at twelve o'clock, in order that better progress may be made?
I think that is a very good suggestion, and perhaps it will be better if I make an announcement later.
The right hon. Gentlemen does not really mean that the Representation of the People Bill will be taken beyond Clause 26. He said the rest of the Bill.
I am sorry if I used those words. Of course I mean up to the stage which the Government has undertaken to take.
When shall we receive the promised statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty?
It will not be possible to make it before the Adjournment.
Is it definitely settled that the Lords Amendments to the Corn Production Bill will be taken in this House on Monday?
I understand so, but that does not depend entirely on the House of Commons.
When will a statement be made in regard to the recruiting policy?
It will not be possible to make any statement, I am sorry to say, before the Adjournment.
Petroleum (Production)
I beg to ask leave to introduce a Bill "to make provision with respect to the searching and boring for and the getting of petroleum in the United Kingdom, and for purposes connected therewith."
In asking leave to introduce this Bill, it is necessary that I should briefly state what the position is. Some little time ago the Prime Minister requested me to deal with this question, because the Department of the Colonial Office is the one Department that is not concerned with the consumption of this most necessary article. It appears to me desirable that steps should be taken to avoid what is almost inevitable when you have a great many conflicting Departments, namely, confusion and overlapping. Consequently, it fell to my lot to reorganise, and I secured the services of Sir Walter Egerton as chairman of the Importers' Pool Board, and Sir Evan Jones as Controller of Petrol Supplies; and I have also secured Professor Cadman as my technical adviser and liaison officer between the different Departments. Since Lord North-cliffe went to the United States, en behalf of the Government, in connection with this very important oil question I have received invaluable assistance from him, and, in consequence of the importance and magnitude of the work, I sent Sir Frederick Black to the United States to represent His Majesty's Government. While, of course, our primary duty is to get the various oil products from other countries, there is also the question of the development of possible supplies here at home, both as regards to shale and possibly in regard to oil itself. My right hon. Friend the Civil Lord of the Admiralty presides over a Committee which has discussed some of these questions, and they have been advised that it is quite probable that oil exists in parts of this country, and being liquid, of course it moves under the surface and, therefore, it is not easy of allocation, nor is it easy to deal with it if it is left entirely to private enterprise. Experience has told us that in other countries where the boring for oil is left entirely in private hands there is a great deal of scrambling competition to be first in the field, and there is also a great deal of very bad work and as a consequence grave national loss.
I will only give one instance where many are available. In the United States of America, according to evidence given before a Senate Committee, in 1915 they spent in drilling £2,250,000 for work which it is maintained now could have been adequately and efficiently done by the expenditure of £600,000. Therefore the Government have determined to bring in a Bill dealing with this question with as little delay as possible. I have no personal knowledge of these matters myself, but I am advised by those who are really competent to judge that in spite of the efforts made by such enlightened concerns as the Standard Oil Company, the Shell Transport and Trading Company, Messrs. Pearson and Company, and the Anglo-Persian Company, there has been a prodigious waste of capital, a premature depletion of the oil fields, and a terrible waste of oil has resulted owing to competitive drilling, and it is in order to prevent that and to secure economy in exploration, drilling, and boring, and a maximum supply for the nation of this most precious fluid that we ask the House to give leave for the introduction of this Bill.
4.0 P.M.
The objects of the Bill are very simple. We place in the hands of the Government all rights to get petroleum, and in this way enable the Government to lease defined petroliferous areas, and thus prevent waste and loss of time. We provide for the payment for oil won within a defined petroliferous zone or pool to the various surface owners within the zone by way of a fixed royalty. We provide for the getting of oil by persons or companies on terms and conditions to be fixed by the Board of Trade, and we set up all the necessary machinery for this purpose. Any work done during the War can be done under the Defence of the Realm Act, but after the War the acquisition of surface upon which to drill or erect works can be done under these provisions, or by private Bill, or by Provisional Order. The Bill is a very short one. The first Clause provides for vesting in His Majesty the right to bore; secondly, for the payment and distribution of royalties; and thirdly, for schemes. A Petroleum Royalty Fund is set up out of which to pay certain expenses and to meet the demands of the different royalty owners, as to which there may be some difficulty in allocation at the moment. While the Board of Trade will prepare the schemes and do the greater part of the work, the Railway and Canal Commissioners are empowered to decide certain questions on hearing evidence which they are given power to hear. It is not proposed to proceed further with this Bill before the Adjournment, but the Government have thought it right, having regard to the excitement that there is in the country because already there is a great deal of talk about these possibilities and some little excitement, that their policy should be put before the country at once in order, as we hope, to check unfortunate enterprises of this kind. The Bill will be printed very shortly; I hope tomorrow or the next day. It will then be in the hands of Members, and we hope that the House will be willing to pass it into law very soon after we reassemble after the Recess. The House knows as well as I do how important is this question of oil in these days, and how desirable it is that we should avoid waste of money, and all the excitement that attends attempts to bore here, there, and everywhere, but above all, and far more important, that we should avoid if we can any waste of an article which is essential for the prosecution of the War.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has any figures to submit to encourage us to pass this Bill, and can he give us any estimate of the cost?
I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means. I do not know whether he has at all studied this question. If he had, he would know that it was absolutely impossible to give any figures of that kind.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Long, Sir Albert Stanley, Sir Gordon Hewart, and Mr. Pretyman.
PETROLEUM (PRODUCTION) BILL,—"to make provision with respect to the searching and boring for and the getting of Petroleum in the United Kingdom, and for purposes connected therewith," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 90.]
Supply
Civil Services Supplementary Estimates, 1917–18
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS.—Class I
Motion made, and Question put, "That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £5, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918, for Expenditure in respect of Houses of Parliament Buildings."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 164; Noes, 18.
Division No. 97.] AYES. [4.4 p.m. Adamson, William Brunner, John F. L. Gardner, Ernest Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Burn, Colonel C. R. Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Griffith, Rt. Hon. Ellis Jones Anstruther-Gray, Lieut.-Col. William Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Guest, Capt. Hon. Fred. E. (Dorset, E.) Astor, Hon. Waldorf Chancellor, Henry George Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Cheyne, Sir W. Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.) Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Clough, William Harris Percy A (Leicester, S.) Barnett, Captain R. W. Cochrane, Cecil Algernon Henry. Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Barton, Sir William Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Hewart, Sir Gorden Beach, William F. H. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Beck, Arthur Cecil Cory, James H. (Cardiff) Hinds. John Beckett, Hon. Gervase Cowan, Sir W. H. Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Bellairs, Commander C. W. Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Davies, Timothy (Lines, Louth) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Bethell, Sir John Henry Davies. Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hughes, Spencer Leigh Bird, Alfred Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Hume-Williams, William Ellis Bliss, Joseph Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Boland, John Plus French, Peter Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburghshire) Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Field, William Jones, N. Haydn (Merioneth) Bowden, Major G. R. Harland Fisher. Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Jones J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W. Fleming, Sir John Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Brace, Rt. Hon. William Fletcher, John Samuel Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Jewett, Frederick William Norman, Sir Henry Starkey, John Ralph Kenyan, Barnet O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Stewart, Gershom Kiley, James Daniel O'Malley, William Sutton, John E. Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) O'Neill Capt. Han. H. (Antrim, Mid) Swift, Rigby Larmer, Sir J. Parker, James (Halifax) Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central) Law, Rt. Hen. A. Bonar (Bootle) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Taylor, John W. (Durham) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Pratt, J. W. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Thomas, Sir A. G. (Menmouth, S.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Pringle, William M. R. Thomas-Stanford, Charles Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Randies, Sir John S. Thorns, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Tickler, T. G. Lewe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon) Tootill, Robert Loyd, Archie Kirkman Rendall, Atheistan Touche, sir George Alexander Lynch, Arthur Alfred Richards, Thomas Toulmin, Sir George Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince) Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) Macleod, John Mackintosh Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Wardle, George J. Macmaster, Donald Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. McMicking, Major Gilbert Robinson, Sidney Watson, John B. (Stockton) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Rowlands, James Watt, Henry A. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Rowntree, Arnold Weigall, Lieut.-Col. William E. G. A. Marten, Sir John Henry Salter, Arthur Clavell Wheler, Major Granville C. H. Marshall, Arthur Harold Samuels, Arthur W. White. J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Mason, David M. (Coventry) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Wilkle. Alexander Middlemore, John Throgmorton Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur Williams, John (Glamorgan) Millar, James Duncan Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Meitens, Percy Alport Shaw, Hon. A. Wilson-Fox, Henry Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Short, Edward Winfrey, Sir Richard Morison, Hector (Hackney, S.) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook Wing. Thomas Edward Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Yoxall, Sir James Henry Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Snowden, Philip Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Nolan, Joseph Stanley. Rt. Hon. Sir A. H. (Asht'n-u-Lyne) Dickinson and Sir S. Roberts. NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Pannefather, De Fonblanque Archdale, Lieut. E. M. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Blair, Reginald Houston, Robert Paterson Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.I Burdett-Coutts, William Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lindsay, William Arthur Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Fell, Arthur Macpherson, James Ian Peto and Colonel Yate
Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Representation of the People Bill
Considered in Committee.—[ Progress, 10th August. ]
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 18.—(Voting by Absent Voters.)
(1) For the purpose of giving persons whose names are entered on the absent voters list an opportunity of voting at a Parliamentary election, the returning officer shall, where an election is contested, as soon as practicable after the adjournment of the election, send a ballot paper to each such person at the address entered against his name on the absent voters list in the register together with a declaration of identity in the prescribed form.
(2) The ballot paper marked by the absent voter and accompanied by the declaration of identity duly signed and authenticated shall, if it is received by the returning officer before the close of the poll, be counted by him and treated for all purposes in the same manner as a ballot paper placed in the ballot box in the ordinary manner.
(3) A person whose name is entered on the absent voters list shall not be entitled to vote except as an absent voter in pursuance of this section.
(4) His Majesty may by Order in Council prescribe the forms to be used for the purposes of this section, and make regulations as to the mode in which ballot papers are to be sent to the voter and as to the authentication of any marked ballot papers, and generally for the purposes of carrying this section into effect, and for preserving the secrecy of voting in pursuance thereof.
I beg to move, at the beginning of the Clause, to insert the following new Sub-section:
"(1) Every registration officer on the completion of the register shall send to each person registered by him under the provisions of Section five of this Act and who is serving abroad and to every other person registered by him who shall make application in the prescribed form on the ground that his or her profession or employment is likely to cause him or her to be absent abroad at the time of an election a form of proxy. Such form shall entitle each such person to appoint a person to vote on his or her behalf at an election of a member to serve in Parliament for the constituency for which such absent person is registered."
I understand that the Home Secretary is going to make a statement on the general question raised by this Amendment, and I therefore simply move it now.
On a point of Order. May I ask you whether, if this Amendment is lost, I shall be debarred from moving my Amendment? This applies to people abroad, and not to fishermen and others who may be in England.
The present Amendment covers the hon. Member's Amendment and several more, but I do not think it will prevent the other point coming up one way or another later on.
I am very much obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Sanders) for giving me the opportunity of making a statement at the earliest possible moment. I cannot, of course, accept his Amendment, for reasons into which I need not go now, but I think it would be convenient, as I have Amendments on the Paper dealing with the question of proxies, that I should on this Amendment at once say what I have to say. Mr. Speaker's Conference recommended that soldiers and sailors should have a vote. I am sure they meant that that vote should be an effective one and that a vote which would be practical should be given. More than once on the discussion on the Second Reading of the Bill my right hon. Friends and I stated in answer to questions that we did intend, as far as we possibly could, to make the vote effective. For that purpose you have to do two things. You have to secure, first, that the sailor or soldier gets upon the register. That, I think, we have secured during the discussions on the earlier Clauses of the Bill. Secondly, you have also to secure that the soldier or the sailor, when he has been registered, shall be able to vote. As regards soldiers at home or in peace time, speaking quite generally, I think we have attained that result by means of the provisions dealing with the absent voters, provisions already-inserted and others which we have promised to insert when we come to the First Schedule. In order that there may be no misunderstanding, I state most clearly that we intend to retain those provisions and not to supersede them by anything which may be done with regard to proxies.
The difficulty is a very real one. It is how to secure in war time, especially in the present War when the whole nation is practically at war, that the soldier's or the sailor's vote can be given when an election comes. We have tried to bring about that result. As the Bill now stands, the procedure would be this: After the nomination of candidates at an election, the ballot paper would be printed with the names of the candidates upon it, and it would be the duty of the returning officer to send a copy of the ballot paper by post or in some other way to every man whose name was found on the absent voters' list. He would send that paper either by registered post or possibly through the medium of the Record Office in the case of the Army or the Admiralty in the case of the Navy. We did our very best, and I am sure the Services did their best to secure some means by which the ballot paper might reach the man at the earliest possible moment and be returned to this country in good time. The man would have to fill up the ballot paper and send his vote to the returning officer in time for counting the poll. That gives only eight days in which all these processes must be gone through. It has been pointed out to us more than once that it would be practically impossible to go through all these processes within the eight days. We have had the advantage of discussing the matter not only with the Adjutant-General and the Naval authorities, but also with the representatives of the Post Office, and very reluctantly indeed we came to the conclusion that the present machinery would not enable every soldier or sailor, or nearly every soldier or sailor, to give his vote. The estimate given to me by those who know much better than I do how the thing would work was that possibly 80 per cent. of the soldiers and sailors serving abroad would not be able to vote. [An HON. MEMBER: "Eight per cent., or eighty?"] Eighty per cent. The estimate is that very likely not more than 20 per cent. of those serving abroad would be able, under the system proposed by the Bill, to give their vote. Whether that estimate is right or not I cannot pretend to say, but that is the estimate given to me by those who have the means of knowing how the matter would really work. If that is true, or anything like true, if it is half true if the estimate is half correct, I am sure the Committee would not be content to let the present system stand. We must give the soldier and sailor, including those serving abroad, a real chance of giving his vote at an election.
Has that anything to do with the sailors in the mercantile marine?
I am dealing at present only with naval and military voters, those who come on the list of absent voters under Clause 5 of the Bill, and I am not dealing with the merchant service.
Will it include those working in mine-sweepers?
Yes; if they are in the Government service. The point is, how can you secure that the vote shall be given? So far as I know, only three expedients have been proposed. One is that the vote shall be given at the front, which means that a poll, so to speak, shall be taken by the commanding officer of his unit. I believe that to be wholly impossible. Each unit might contain voters in a whole number of constituencies, and you could not expect a commanding officer to find out in which constituency his men might vote, then to get the ballot paper for the man, then to obtain his vote, and then to send it home. I think it is impossible in time of war to have a system of that kind. I mention it only because it is one proposal that is made. The second proposal is that you should extend the time between the nomination and the poll. If it be the case, as I am told it is, that to get these votes in time you would want an extra week—some say three weeks in all—that means extending the interval between the nomination and the polling for as much as three weeks. That would be intolerable. It would not only make elections most burdensome and troublesome to the country, but would to a great extent neutralise the desire of the House that the elections shall be taken rapidly and, if possible, all on one day. We hold that to extend the period of elections, including the canvassing and the uncertainty, from eight days to three weeks, would not be tolerable. For myself, I do not think that expedient is one to be adopted.
Is the right hon. Gentleman referring to an extension of the period before the day of polling or to a postponement of the counting and the announcement of the result?
My own dislike extends to both. I dislike, perhaps more, extending the period for polling, but to allow the polling to close so far as voters at home are concerned, and to keep the decision open for a week or two longer before declaring the result, would also be a thing which the country would much dislike. It makes matters uncertain for another fortnight, it makes it impossible to summon Parliament for another fortnight, and it might give rise to serious public inconvenience. It is undesirable that you should have, after the actual polling place is closed, votes dropping in from here or there for a period of one or two weeks after that time. I do not think that that is a practicable or desirable expedient. If those are not the right solutions, you have nothing left but to authorise a proxy to be given. After a good deal of thought, we have decided to propose that expedient to the Committee, and I put upon the Paper last Wednesday a series of Amendments, which appeared upon the Amendment Paper last Thursday when we were last discussing the Bill, which contain proposals for a limited proxy vote.
The procedure proposed is this: A naval or military voter, by which I mean a voter who comes in under Clause 5 of the Bill, who is on the absent voters' list, will, as soon as he gets upon the list, receive from the registration officer a notice, stating that his name is upon that list, informing him of the way in which he can vote by post under the absent voters' system, and also telling him that, if he is likely to be abroad at the time of an election, which may come at any time within the next six months, he had better apply for a proxy form, whereupon one would be sent to him. He will be told, of course, that so long as the proxy remains operative he can only vote by proxy and not by post He can cancel that form at any moment, letting the registration officer know. If he does not cancel it, he will be a proxy voter and will be marked on a special list by the registration officer as a man who votes by proxy, and he will not have sent to him by post the ballot paper which is sent to other persons on the absent voters' list.
Is the choice open to him, if he is abroad, of voting by post?
Practically no, because the ballot paper will not be sent to him abroad, unless, of course, his address is at home. He might get the ballot paper sent to him at home and have it forwarded to him abroad.
The Committee would like the matter to be made quite clear. There is not really an option for him to choose. He being a soldier serving abroad, he will either vote by post or by proxy. If he is abroad, he must vote by proxy, or run the risk of the ballot paper being sent to his home address and reaching him abroad.
Yes, that I think is the effect of the scheme. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I think that is the practical result of the Amendments as drawn. They provide that if the address of the voter is abroad, the ballot paper shall not be sent to him by post. That is a matter which can well be considered on the Bill as it stands. That is the practical way in which the matter will work. Of course, a proxy voter may nominate whom he pleases, and send the paper to his proxy, who will vote for him. He can give to his proxy such instructions as he thinks fit. He can either give him general instructions to vote for one side, say, for a Liberal candidate or something of that kind, or, if the candidates are chosen, especially if it is near an election, he can instruct him to vote for a certain candidate. I have no doubt he will choose someone whom he can trust to act as his proxy. That is the way proxy voting will be taken. I quite recognise that in proposing a system of that kind you must take proper precautions, and certain precautions are already on the Paper. If others are required, they can doubtless be inserted. We propose, first, to limit the system to naval and military voters who are abroad—those who registered address is abroad. The question of the mercantile marine is a wholly different question, and I hope we shall not mix it up with the question of the soldiers' and sailors' vote. Secondly, we propose that the proxy himself must be either an elector for the constituency in which the vote is to be given or the wife of the person who gives the proxy. I say that because it is very desirable that the proxy himself should be an elector, should be cognisant of what is going on in the division, and should not be merely an outsider and know nothing of what is going on. He may choose his wife, and, if need be, he can choose some other near relation, so that if the soldier happens to have no one else to whom he desires to confide this trust, he can appoint, as very many of them will appoint, his wife to give the vote for him.
Can the same voter act as a proxy for more than one voter?
That is the next limitation we propose. It is very undesirable to have a political agent or anyone else coming in, as sometimes happens at a company meeting, with a whole batch of proxies, saying, "I give these votes to So-and-So." That must be avoided at all costs. Therefore, we propose in these Amendments that no one shall be entitled to act as proxy for more than one person. I quite agree you have the risk there that, without knowing it, two electors might appoint the same person to be their proxy. That, I think, is difficult to avoid, but the real remedy is that they should appoint a relative and then they will be quite safe.
Will the names of the proxies be published?
No. The registration officer will have a note that a proxy has been issued to the elector, and when the proxy comes in the presiding officer will know that the elector votes by proxy, and the proxy will be produced.
Will there be any means of challenging a proxy?
Certainly. A proper declaration will be required of the proxy, and appropriate penalties will be imposed in case of fraud. The advantages of the scheme are—firstly, that it obviates delay in declaring the result of the poll; secondly, it saves the naval and military authorities and the Post Office a vast deal of trouble; thirdly, it prevents the men at the front from being troubled with all the business of the election. They have appointed their relations at home whom they trust. They may, of course, in the ordinary course, write to them before the nomination, which will be in plenty of time, asking them to vote for the candidate whom they choose, but they will not themselves be troubled with a whole litter of ballot papers at the front. They will be relieved of all that, and will not be distracted from far more important duties. A further advantage is that, whereas by no system of extending the time of polling could you enable soldiers who are so far away as Salonika, Egypt, or Mesopotamia to give a vote, by this system you do enable them to give a vote. The same observation applies to sailors who are away at sea. You cannot reach them by ballot papers, but when they are in port you can get their proxies. I know that strong objection is taken to this proposal, but I have done my best to find a better way of securing the object which we all have in view, without success. I am sure the Conference, although it did not deal with these details, meant the soldiers' and sailors' vote to be effective. I am sure no one wants it to be a sham, a mere right on paper which a man cannot exercise. I have found no other way which is effective and practicable of enabling a vote to be given. I only ask the Committee to try it for the period of this War, and to apply it only to those who are abroad. I believe it will have the result we desire, and I am quite sure the advantages will far outweigh the disadvantages.
On a point of Order. May I ask whether we are to have a sort of Second Reading discussion on the principle of voting by proxy and whether later this Amendment will be withdrawn and the Home Secretary will move his Amendment giving the actual details of the special provision for proxy voting which he proposes, on which there are already Amendments on the Paper; because it seems rather an inconvenient method of debating the matter in detail on an Amendment which is not likely to be the Amendment which will ultimately be before the House?
I quite agree as to details, but it seems to me to be greatly for the convenience of the Committee that there should be some more or less general debate before we approach the details of the Home Secretary's Amendment. I think we might now confine ourselves to the broad aspects of the question.
Shall we be in order in drawing attention to the provisions in the new Schedule of Regulations under which this scheme is to be carried into force?
Oh, yes; I think so. It seemed to me that it would really facilitate in the end the discussion of this Clause if the Committee is in possession of a broad view of the whole matter before it approaches the details.
What will happen with regard to Amendments which are down before the Home Secretary's Amendment was put forward at all — Amendments subsequent to these we are now discussing? If we are now going to discuss the Home Secretary's Amendment, does that do away with the Amendment which I have got down, which comes previous to the Home Secretary's Amendment, but after the one now before the Committee?
No; not if the hon. and gallant Gentleman wishes to insist on his right I have his Amendment, for instance, marked as one which would be called, but it is obvious that a preliminary discussion may clear some of the difficulties out of the way.
Should I be in order in referring to the point referred to in my Amendment—really a point of detail —as to obtaining the votes of people in far distant theatres of war, such as Salonika and Mesopotamia, by a method other than that of proxy?
Yes; I think so, although it would not be desirable to go into the lesser points, important no doubt in themselves, in this more or less general debate, but it would be in order.
I also have an Amendment down to the latter part of the Home Secretary's Amendment. It is a rather important one. In fact, it is the point to which the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Samuel) referred, as to whether a man abroad has the option of either voting by proxy, or having a ballot paper sent to him. Should I be in order in referring to that now, and treating it as if it were an Amendment, or must I wait until the Home Secretary formally moves his Amendment and deal with it then?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman will certainly be in order in referring to that. I only hope that neither he nor other Members will do anything to defeat my desire to give the Committee the fullest liberty to look all round the question before we approach the actual Amendments dealing with detail. The hon. and gallant Gentleman who moved this Amendment told me that, as then advised, he would propose, after the discussion had proceeded some way, to ask leave to withdraw his particular proposal—he indicated that that was his then view on the matter—in order that, after a survey, we might approach the particular proposals.
There is an Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Wirral and others dealing with the Merchant Service. If that is moved and negatived will my Amendment to the Home Secretary's Amendment, which puts in the Merchant Service, as well as the naval and military Vote, be in order?
No. If hon. Members will only try and assist me, I shall endeavour to see that no relevant point misses its opportunity.
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman, after discussion, withdraws his Amendment, do we understand that it will not prevent the Amendments on the Paper corning on in their order? If not, had we who are advocating merchant seamen better say what we have to say now—I only ask for the convenience of the Committee—or had we better wait until the Amendment comes on in the ordinary course?
That will not prevent the hon. Member, but the situation may be clearer by the time we reach that point. Hon. Members will still keep the same rights as they had before.
If the Amendment we are now discussing is rejected, will it be in order for the Home Secretary to move his Amendment? This is a proposal in support of the proxy system. If the Committee does not allow it to be withdrawn and rejects it, will the Home Secretary be entitled to move?
The Home Secretary's is a different proposal. For one thing it is limited to the present War, and it has a number of safeguards in it which are quite different from the present proposal. I hope the Committee will not defeat my object.
If the present Amendment is rejected will that not mean the rejection of the whole principle of the proxy system?
No, I do not think so. I think I should be taking away liberty from the Committee if I held that view.
I put down this Amendment in the widest possible form, because I thought it would be for the convenience of the Committee to have a discussion on the whole subject at the beginning of the Clause, and I took the best advice I could get to ascertain that it would not exclude the discussion of other cognate subjects which hon. Friends of mine wish to raise. Of course, I realise that this is a departure from the proposals of the Conference, though it is a departure, not in principle, but in machinery only. I think all the members of the Conference, and the whole Committee, have the same object at heart. We all want to get as many soldiers as possible upon the register, and when on the register we want to enable as many as possible of them to vote. I hope that if it can be shown in the course of this Debate, as I believe it can be shown, that by the system proposed by the Conference it is not possible that a large proportion of the soldiers should be able to vote, and that by this system of proxies it will be possible, then even members of the Conference themselves will agree that the proxy is the better course to adopt. I want, first of all, to deal with one or two of the objections. I have not, of course, yet heard the objections that are going to be raised in the Debate, but I want to say a word or two about some of them that may possibly be raised. I do not think I need deal at any length with the theory that proxies are an innovation. They are not an innovation at all, but one of the very oldest institutions of the country. They date back to the Plantagenets, and you must be very conservative if you want to date an institution from much further back than that.
When did the Plantagenets vote by proxy?
The institution of proxies dates back to the time of the Plantagenets, and there were proxies granted in whatever corresponded to the House of Lords in those days. I am speaking of the reign of Edward III. There is force, I think, in the objection that the proxy is not a thing which you can trust. I think the principal objection that is likely to be raised is that you cannot trust the person exercising a proxy to carry out the duty of voting in the way in which the giver of the proxy means him to do. That, I understand, is the most substantial objection that can be raised against the proxy system, but, after all, we have used the proxy system in daily life over and over again. I need not refer to its being used in the case of City companies, but whenever any careful man goes abroad he gives a power of attorney, which enables the holder of that power to do just what he or she likes with practiaclly all the property that the man who goes abroad leaves at home. He does that with perfect confidence, and leave it with the holder of the power of attorney to decide the most important matters for him. Let me take an even more important thing than that. I suppose the most important thing that any man does in his life is to get married, yet Henry VI. was married by proxy.
But he chose his wife.
I believe he did. According to Shakespeare the results were not altogether satisfactory, but I think that Shakespeare's history of the time of the Henrys was not always absolutely accurate. At all events, it shows that in a very important thing we have legal sanction for employing the proxy. Then there is undoubtedly the point that was raised at Question Time about the proxy voting in the way that is intended by the giver of the proxy. Of course, you cannot have absolute assurance of that, but, after all, in nine eases out of ten these proxies given by soldiers and sailors will either be given to the man's wife or to his father or mother, and you do find in the very great majority of cases that politics go by families. In the country districts we find that to a very great extent it goes by villages. I do not know whether it is the same in the towns, and whether you find that one particular ward has one kind of politics and another ward another kind. One of my right hon. Friends says it is so. I think you do find politics very largely go by districts, and when the man sends his proxy to his friend at home or his relation in nine cases out of ten that friend or relation will vote in the same way as the giver of the proxy would have voted.
There is one more objection I want to deal with, and that is the fear of personation. After all, the penalties for personation are very heavy, and I do not think that in England, at all events, it is very common. I do not think there is a very great deal of personation, but I do want to point out that the risk of personation with a proxy is very much less than the risk of personation in any other case, because before the proxy is allowed to vote at all he will have to produce the numbered card. In order to personate the man the person trying to do that would not only have to produce the card but to steal it; you get the penalties of personation and theft, and that is a very great risk for any man to take for a single vote. Those, I think, are the principal objections to proxies. I certainly should say that they are not deterrent, and I do not myself think that they are even substantial. I want to say a word as to who should be allowed to give the proxies. I drew this Amendment, as I said, in the widest possible form, and as I drew it it would apply to fishermen and the members of the merchant service, for whom I think a very strong case could be made out. I think it has been a blot on our franchise system up to now that in so many elections the fishermen have lost their vote, sometimes by one day or one tide, and that a great many of the men of the merchant service have never voted in their lives. I think that if we can remedy that blot we ought to do so, but that is a question in which the hon. Member for Wirral (Mr. Stewart) and other hon. Gentlemen take a great interest, on which they have Amendments, and with which, therefore, I shall not deal further. After all, the Amendment of the Home Secretary meets three-quarters of the case that I want to bring forward, and if I get it to the extent of three-quarters I am fairly satisfied.
I want to say a word on the reason why I think that the system as proposed in the Bill is not likely to carry out the purpose of those who framed it, and why it is not really going to give the vote to the soldier and sailor. It is really a matter of time, as the Home Secretary said. I have tried the time it takes to get a letter backwards and forwards to France as quickly as it can be done. I wrote from this House to a brigadier at a divisional headquarters asking him to reply to my London address by return post. It took six days. There are nine days altogether allowed under the Bill. The Home Secretary said one day would be taken up in the printing. I think, with all due deference, he was unduly sanguine. I think in most cases it would take up two days, because each one of these absent voter's cards would have to be numbered, and I have consulted good authorities on the subject and they have said that they do not think they could guarantee to get all these numbered absent voters' cards out under two days. I am sorry if I misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman, but I thought he allowed one day, and I think he wants two. That leaves seven. It takes six under the most favourable circumstances going from London to a divisional headquarters. You have to add at this end the time it takes to get from the trawler, or the Hebrides, or County Kerry, to anywhere in the United Kingdom. You have to add at the other end a very great deal more. The time that it will take, even in France, to distribute letters at the front is very considerable indeed, and it must be remembered that these letters are distributed not to addresses that were discovered only the day before, but to addresses given at the time when the register is made up. There may be an interval of anything from three to nine months between the time that the register is made up and the time when the election will actually take place. Everyone knows the way the men melt away in units. Anyone knows what a different list of men you have on the strength of a battalion at the beginning or three months and at the end of three months. Every one of those men who has moved has to be traced. That is going to take a very considerable time indeed, and under the nine days' proposal I am quite sure my right hon. Friend was right when he said that 80 per cent. would not be able to vote.
I do want to point out to the Committee how very important it is not only that we should do everything that is possible to get these men on the register and to enable them to vote, but that we should not allow there to be the slightest suspicion that we are not giving them every possible chance to vote. I have here an article of 30th June from "John Bull." "John Bull" is a paper that is enormously read in the Army. I should say it was read probably more in the Army than any other organ of public opinion. It has a very large circulation in England as well. Those of us who were in the House with him would all recognise that it is run by a very clever and a very successful journalist. I believe that a great secret of success in journalism is to say that which people are ready and anxious to believe, and what this article says is that there is a sort of plot in the House of Commons to pass a Franchise Bill by which all the women and all the stay-at-homes shall vote and all the soldiers serving' abroad shall not vote; and it pictures the state of mind in which the Army will return after that, and the consequences that are likely to ensue. We must not give the slightest pretext for anyone to be able to say that we do not want to do our best in this matter. I do not think that we can say, if we use this absent voters' list, and if we give no other chance to vote than the absent voters' list, that we have really done our best to get the soldiers and sailors the vote, because, as the Home Secretary said, you may get a proportion—a large proportion or a small proportion, which I cannot say—of those who are at the front in France to vote, but every soldier and sailor beyond France you cut out altogether. Under the proposal that has been made men serving in Salonika, Egypt, India, Mesopotamia, and East Africa, would get no chance whatever of registering a vote.
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I am not going to refer to how many that includes. It would not be right to do so. But I do think that I can say, without indiscretion, that a very large proportion of the Army serving in those places consists of the Territorial Force. We know that the Territorial Force is supposed to be the Citizen Army. Surely the Citizen Army ought, if any men ought, to have a right to exercise the first privilege of a citizen. After all, what have these men done that you should take away from them that right? They are the men in Mesopotamia; the men who have been in Gallipoli! Are you going to take away from them any privilege or right it is possible for this House to give? I do not believe for a moment that the Committee would wish to do anything of the sort; and because I believe that by proxy, and by proxy alone, you can secure that these men shall get the vote, I wish to support the Home Secretary's Amendment when it comes on.
As the Committee has heard the arguments which have been used by the Home Secretary in proposing this system of proxy voting, and the arguments of the hon. Member for Somerset (Colonel Sanders), it would be just as well that the Committee should know what the Speaker's Conference felt were what I may term the limitations of the question. We proposed a system of voting for absent voters that should give a real and personal vote, and enable the voter to exercise his franchise as nearly as possible in the same way, and as absolutely personally, as if he were actually in the polling booth on the day of the election. The hon. Member for Somerset (Colonel Sanders) just now said that, as far as personation was concerned, the system of proxy voting which he suggests was more proof against personation than any other system. He pointed out that the proxy paper would have to be brought and identified, and the person voting would be identified, and that to be improperly used the paper would have to be stolen. The proposal which the Speaker's Conference made is still more secure against personation, because no second person comes into it at all. A paper exactly like any other paper would be sent to the actual voter. There is no question of an intermediary. The actual voter would make a declaration that he was the person who was the proper and rightful owner of that paper and the person designated upon it, and upon receipt of it he would exercise the franchise himself, exactly like any other voter. We wanted to give a real vote. We wanted also to propose a scheme which would be equally applicable in war and peace, under present conditions, and as a permanent part of our franchise system, and which would be applicable to persons whether naval or military, whether seamen of the Royal Navy or of the merchant service, and to any person who came within the words of the Bill, in the First Schedule: in this country as involved in proxy voting. The system of absent voting for seamen, for example, has been in force for many years in Norway, where they have triennial Parliaments; but they have not adopted the proxy system, and if we adopted this system we should, so far as I know, be taking a plunge practically without any precedent. When the question of seamen's votes—and this influenced me, at any rate, to a certain extent —was discussed as long ago as 1904 in this House, the then Member for Birken-head (Sir Elliott Lees) said this, in moving a Resolution, which was ultimately rendered nugatory by the inclusion of too many people in it. He moved this Resolution:
We did not contemplate six days, in such an emergency as a General Election, being occupied in transferring the voting papers to the Front and getting them back again. I cannot help thinking that the Post Office and the other authorities concerned, knowing it was a matter of vital importance to get these votes home, would devise means of getting them there and back in less than three days each way. Even so, I think the eight days is rather short. I know the hon. Member for St. Pancras (N.) proposes an emergency proposal, which the Home Secretary referred to, providing a special extension of the period during the War. That could have been got over, at any rate, in that or some other way. It is difficult to deal with the Home Secretary's proposal in more than a general way because it all depends upon what is in the Schedule. I gather from remarks made by members of the Committee near me that there are a good many members who have not had an opportunity of considering that Schedule. The Home Secretary explained how soldiers who are in this country are going to get their proxy papers, but he did not explain how soldiers who are out of this country are going to get them. In his own Schedule I find this in paragraph 2:
After a proxy paper for any constituency has been issued to an elector or to some person on behalf of the elector in accordance with this Act, that elector shall, unless the proxy paper is cancelled in accordance with this Act, be entitled to vote by proxy in that constituency,"
and so on Paragraph 3 says:
"It shall be the duty of the registration officer, on any application for a proxy paper, to issue a proxy paper to the applicant, or to some person on his behalf, if he is satisfied that the applicant is registered on the Parliamentary register of electors."
The Home Secretary spoke of soldiers in very distant fields being able to avail themselves of the facilities of proxy voting. I should like, when we come to deal at closer grips with this question, to know just how the soldier, say in East Africa, or in India, is going to indicate to the registration officer that he wishes a particular person to have his proxy and also whether the person who applies to the registration officer, if it is the soldier's wife, is going to be assumed to be the person whom the soldier would like to have the proxy if the soldier had been in a position to indicate it himself. I do not think it is quite as easy as it may look.
There is this general remark I should like to make: I think there is rather a tendency to regard this proposal as in every respect a more liberal and generous proposal than the one put before the House by the Speaker's Conference. I do not think it is. I do not think any man who had the chance of exercising a vote by post under the method we propose would ever dream of taking a proxy vote in exchange for it. There is a very strong instinct among voters in this country that the vote is a personal duty which the voter has got to perform, and the less that sentiment is weakened the better. I am not at all afraid that there will be an undue rush for this proxy method of voting. All I am anxious to see is that every person within reasonable limits should, at any rate, have the chance of exercising the vote by the method we propose, and that only in cases where he would have no substantial chance of exercising the vote in this way at all he should have the proxy method as an alternative. The Amendment before the Committee cuts out the whole of the proposals of the Speaker's Conference. The Home Secretary, I think, was very wise. He has left the first two or three Sub-clauses of Clause 18 in the Bill, so that it is only in certain cases that the proxy vote is to be exercised. That brings me to the more general question of who ought to be included among the people who are to exercise the proxy vote, if they so desire. The Home Secretary has told us that a very large proportion of the Army would not be able to vote under the Speaker's Conference method of voting by post. That equally applies to the merchant service, who have been asking for an effective method of registering their votes when at sea. They have not pressed for the proxy method, for the reason that they would very much prefer to leave behind them a vote filled in in some way, and in the safe custody of some trusted person, until the day of the poll. That might or might not be a bad paper, and I should imagine in many cases it would be all right. Some effective method of voting whilst they are away has been asked for by the merchant service for over twenty years. Thirteen years ago it was seriously debated in this House on the occasion to which I have already referred. What is the position in the present War? I think you are making an absolutely impossible line of demarcation between the naval voter, who is to have the privilege of voting by proxy if he wishes, and the seaman of the merchant service, who is not. I will give the Committee one example. I was in Hull in March last, and I inquired from the East Coast Mission and Sailors' and Orphan Homes, Port of Hull Society, if they could tell me what the casualties had been during the War in trawlers and mine-sweepers. I got these figures: Up to the 7th March, 1917, the men lost from trawlers in that one port was 483, and from mine-sweepers 195, making a total of 678. In face of the risks incurred by men in trawlers and mine-sweepers, how are you going to make distinctions, and say that one class of men, if they happen to be at sea, are only to have a very limited opportunity of voting, while another class of men, because they will come under Clause 5, paragraph ( b ), of this Bill as men who are on the pay-list of the Admiralty, will have an opportunity of proxy voting? Take the most recent case of the "Belgian Prince," where forty or fifty men were murdered by drowning without the slightest opportunity of even having the satisfaction of making any resistance against the enemy. These men run the game risks and are exposed to the same hazards as men of the Navy, but it is not proposed to give them this new opportunity of voting. I am satisfied that if we are going to adopt proxy voting on account of the absence of so large a number of men in the naval and military services we must certainly include the merchant service.
This proposal is limited to the period of the War and twelve months afterwards. Frankly, I do not see why, if it is once adopted, it should be limited to this short period. When we come to the end of the War why should not the 30 per cent., or whatever the percentage may be, of the Army in India or other distant stations continue to have the same opportunity? I cannot for the life of me see what object there is in making this limitation for the period of the War and for twelve months afterwards. It is entirely contrary to the proposals put before the House by the Speaker's Conference. The proposal, when once settled, should be in operation continuously. If what the Home Secretary proposes is carried you will be enfran- chising men for one election and men in exactly the same situation will be disfranchised afterwards. I offer no opposition to the proposal of proxy voting; I am not in the least jealous because something different from what was settled at the Speaker's Conference has been proposed. I have tried to show that we had good reason for proposing what we did. We offered a much more real vote in the method we suggested, and I am very glad to think that the Government are not going to sweep that aside, but are going to maintain the system proposed upstairs, whilst giving this additional opportunity of voting by proxy—a vicarious vote for a man who could not possibly have an opportunity of voting in any other way.
I think the Committee will be agreed on two points. The first is that it is the duty of Parliament to give as effective an opportunity as possible to as many soldiers and sailors as possible to vote at the elections, and the other point upon which we are agreed is the difficulty of doing that. The scheme which is now proposed by the Government is undoubtedly open to very serious objection. We want as many soldiers and sailors to vote as possible, but we want the soldiers and sailors themselves to vote. That is not the same thing as requiring them to entrust to another person the duty of casting a vote on their behalf. Let this be clearly understood, so far as soldiers and sailors serving abroad are concerned., that this scheme is not an alternative to that of voting by post, but a substitute for it. I mean that the man is not given the option of choosing whether he will vote this way or by post. If he wishes to vote at all he cannot vote himself secretly by ballot by sending his ballot paper by post, but he must choose some individual whom he shall authorise to vote on his behalf. The Home Secretary said that the new scheme cast upon the voter the duty of organising the system and carrying it into effect, and that the military authorities will no longer be required to do it, but that the voter himself will have to provide for the proxy and carry into effect this electoral method. In actual practice I very much suspect that it will be found that the whole working of this new piece, of machinery will devolve upon the party organisations. If the Bill passes in the form now proposed by the Home Secretary the moment the register is completed and the list is made out of the sailors and soldiers on the absent voters list every political organisation in a constituency will communicate or seek to communicate with every soldier or sailor upon that list. It will present its programme in the most attractive form and will appeal to the soldier or sailor to send back his proxy form to some specified person, usually the political agent, who will make it his business to find a proxy.
Mark the difficulty in which the soldier or sailor will be placed in finding the proxy for himself, if he is a married man, and if, as no doubt will usually be the case, he can trust his wife to vote in the direction in which he desires, well and good, the task will be a simple one; but if not, he has got to ascertain first whether the person to whom he wishes to send his proxy is an elector in his division or not. If such person is not an elector in the division, then the proxy will be invalid, because it is only an elector in that division who can act as a proxy. He may not know whether the person in question is an elector in the particular district in which the vote has to be cast. Secondly, he has to know—and this is a very important point—whether or not his intended proxy is already acting as a proxy for somebody else. If so, his vote will be disqualified. A person is not to be allowed to act as a proxy for more than one elector. I think in a great many cases the elector would not be sure of getting a proxy able to act legally on his behalf, and he will respond to the appeals of the party agent with whom he is more or less in sympathy to send his proxy form back to the party. In many cases in towns like Portsmouth, where an immense proportion of the adult male population are serving abroad, on land or sea, it will not be at all an easy matter to find a sufficient number of proxies who are electors, or who are wives, to go round, and it will require most careful organisation to prevent overlapping and to secure that the system is effectively worked. Therefore, so far from its being a simple process for the individual elector to carry through on his own behalf, it will be found that this duty will fall into the routine of political party organisation. In fact, it will make an important new sphere of party work in the preparation for an election to organise the proxy votes for the millions of soldiers and sailors serving abroad. One right hon. Gentleman suggested that the voter under this system will not have showered upon him through the post a whole litter of electoral material, but I think he will find himself mistaken, for every six months every party will deluge every elector with electoral material, with a view to securing that his proxy shall be cast on their side.
How does the Home Secretary propose to prevent any proxy voting for more than one person? What machinery is there to prevent any individual who chose to do so from voting in different polling booths as proxy for two or three different persons? You are going to call upon him to make a declaration in every case. You may be able to avoid personation. Proxy voting is really legalised personation, and you attempt to prevent duplicate personation. You may be able perhaps to prevent it, but I think it may be somewhat difficult. However, that is a minor point. Another minor point is that men whose names may unfortunately appear in the casualty lists as having lost their lives may have given their proxy, and there is every possibility that that proxy would, nevertheless, be used unless the representative was a very scrupulous person. One great advantage of the proxy voting scheme over any other is that it really does give an effective means of voting to the distant voter. That is to say, it gives an opportunity for men in Mesopotamia, in Salonika, and in India, and I do not know of any other method that could be proposed which would really secure that. It may be that the Committee will be inclined to face all the difficulties that attach to the proxy voting system rather than disfranchise these distant electors. This, perhaps, should be limited to those distant voters. I do not rule that out. I think that is a matter which ought to be further considered when we have heard from various quarters of the House what objections may be urged against the scheme— there may be objections other than those which have occurred to myself—and, on the other hand, what advantages may attach to it.
We may then, perhaps, consider whether seeing that a proxy voting scheme is to be provided, it should be applied only to distant voters, but I confess that the case seems to me to be exceedingly weak for applying it to men—and they are, of course, the great bulk of the absent voters—who will be employed so near our shores as Flanders and France. We are within sound of the guns which they are serving, yet we are told that ingenuity cannot devise a means of enabling them to vote by ballot by some postal system. The hon. and gallant Member for Bridgwater said that he sent a letter to a friend, who sent a speedy reply and that the letter and reply took six days. Of course, these ballot papers would not be sent or returned in the ordinary course of post. I speak as an ex-Postmaster-General, and I can assure the hon. and gallant Member that the Post Office would not dream of sending these things in the ordinary letter bag to take their chance with the other mails. Where there would be so many millions, or at least hundreds of thousands of papers, to be sent, of course special and speedy arrangements would be made—special boats might have to be employed to take the papers across Channel, and special arrangements should be made for their distribution and collection, and for their return to the places where the poll is held.
But if, on mature consideration, the Government found it really quite impossible to secure an effective means of voting for the Army in France and in Flanders within the period arranged between the time of nomination and the date of the polling, then it is by no means impossible to lengthen the period either by antedating the date of nomination or postponing the date of counting. The Bill as it stands in dealing with the dates for elections provides that a certain period shall elapse between the date when the writ is received and the date of nomination. That must necessarily, for the first election, be a short time, two or three days, and those two or three days might be added in between the date of nomination and the date of polling. That is one alternative which I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman. If on consideration there is objection to that, that it gives too little lime if a General Election is sprung on the country for the selection of candidates and other Parliamentary arrangements to be made before the nominations, you have to weigh the advantages and the disadvantages. The other alternative, which I think the right hon. Gentleman dismissed a little too summarily, is the suggestion that the dates for the, nomination and the voting should remain as now, but that a longer period should remain for the absent voters to record their votes, and that the votes should not be counted until the longer period had elapsed. The disadvantage of that is that it keeps constituencies in suspense for two or three days. The right hon. Gentleman suggested a fortnight, but I think that that is a most excessive estimate. I should say that at the outside a week would be ample, and probably a shorter period than that ought to be ample if special arrangements were made by the Post Office for the speedy transmission and collection of the ballot papers. There is the objection that the constituency is kept in suspense and that particularly the candidates are kept in suspense, for a period of a few days or a week, but you must face objections somewhere and the only question is—which is the least objectionable?
I suggest that the House should pause before dismissing as quite impracticable the suggestion that, if the present period is not long enough, a longer period should be given for absent voters to record their votes, and that the count should not be taken until that time had elapsed, and power might be given by Order in Council for the Government of the day, when they knew the circumstances of the time, to provide that additional period. It might be that the War would be over and demobilisation begun just before the Bill passed and the new register came into force, and all arrangements made for a General Election. That is possible. You have to view the circumstances as they are at the time, and it might be well to give some latitude to the Government of the day to provide accordingly. In the case of the Australian referendum on Conscription, opportunity was given to the men at the front to vote, and the poll was not completed until these votes were counted and they were added to the votes cast in Australia itself. There was there, I think, the disadvantage, if I remember rightly, that the totals of the votes counted in Australia were first declared there and that then a supplementary addition was made of the votes cast at the front, and that the two were added together before the final result was made known. I do not suggest that that should be done hers. I think that it would be a great disadvantage to have the votes given in a town or county counted when everyone knows that that is not the final vote, and that it would foe modified subsequently by the addition of these other votes, and if you extend the period, the counting should be postponed. I do not think that any country in the world, even in the exceptional circumstances of the War, has adopted the system of votes by proxy, and I think that Parliament would be well advised to hesitate a little and should be well convinced that it is a practicable, effective, alternative before it adopts an innovation so unprecedented.
One of the most disappointing speeches made in connection with this Bill was the speech on proportional representation made by the right hon. Gentleman who has just resumed his seat. After giving every possible argument against proportional representation—
And in favour of it.
Not in favour of it.
Certainly.
After giving a most lucid argument against proportional representation he informed the House that he was going to vote for it. I think here again that he has delivered a most disappointing speech, because after declaring, at the very beginning of his speech, that the one thing which he had earnestly at heart, and which the House had earnestly at heart, was to give an effective vote to as many soldiers and sailors as possible, he has done nothing but find fault—[HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"]—in the earlier part of his speech with the proposal that has been made by the Government by which it is made possible for soldiers not only in France but in Mesopotamia, Egypt and India and East Africa to give their votes, while he has not, in the latter part of his speech, proposed to us any practical method by which those soldiers in Mesopotamia, India, Egypt, and East Africa may be able to give the vote which it is the desire of the House they should give.
I think that the right hon. Gentleman has been very unfair to me, because I said distinctly that many as were the objections to proxy voting it might be better to adopt it rather than to disfranchise those men so far as those men in distant theatres of war were concerned.
The right hon. Gentleman advanced every possible reason against the use of proxy voting and yet it is only by proxy voting that it is possible to make the votes of soldiers and sailors in distant parts of the world effective.
He said so.
He may have said so, but he devised no method by which those votes could be given—[HON. MEMBERS: "Proxy votes!"]— because the right hon. Gentleman suggested that instead of adopting the proxy system of voting—
In France.
You should lenghten the time between the period of nomination and the date of the election.
For voters in France.
That would not in the least enable the men in the more distant parts to vote. [HON. MEMBERS: "He said so!"]
The right hon. Gentleman has been misunderstood.
I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has misunderstood me. I think that he knows what I have said.
I am most anxious not to be unfair to the right hon. Gentleman or to anybody else, but I certainly did not suppose that he would be in favour of a system of proxy voting in any place for our naval or military forces.
What I said was that a system of proxy voting was open to very grave objection, but—
Is it necessary for the right hon. Gentleman to repeat his speech, because he is not understood by a member of the Government?
My right hon. Friend seems anxious that I should repeat the pith of my speech. I said that a system of proxy voting was open to very grave objection, that it was not a good system, that it ought to be avoided if it were possible to avoid it, and that I thought it was possible to avoid it so far as the bulk of our soldiers and sailors wore concerned—the men serving in France and near home, and that the Government ought to make an effort to avoid it on account of the objection to it, so far as the great bulk of our soldiers and sailors were concerned, but that with regard to the men in the distant theatres of war it was not possible in my view to avoid it, and that it might be better to face the objections to this system rather than run the risk of penalising these men.
The right hon. Gentleman has certainly made it clear, though he did not make it clear before, that he is in favour of a proxy system for the men in the most distant places. Now I understand that he is in favour of a dual system. He is in favour of a proxy system for those who may be sent to distant places—he does not say exactly where: possibly Egypt, Salonika, and Mesopotamia. He does not think that his arguments are strong arguments against applying the proxy to those particular soldiers. What were some of these arguments? He said that it would be so difficult for the soldier or sailor to find a proxy; that it will be perfectly easy if he is a married man, but not easy if he is an unmarried man. Why should he not choose his father or his brother? Is there a man in France out of a large borough who is an elector and who has no friend in the workshop from which he is taken? I do not think there is any difficulty in men finding proxies. The right hon. Gentleman said, again, that if you have a proxy system these soldiers and sailors would be deluged with literature by party agents of all kinds. Why should party agents choose particularly the soldier who is going to vote by proxy? The party agent will probably deluge everybody else.
How is he to know who is going to vote by proxy?
All party agents will do it. The party agent knows by looking at the absent voters' list, and if he likes to communicate with the absent voters he can communicate with them. The soldier can select his wife if he is married, or if he is not his father or his brother or some great friend as a proxy, and there would be little opening, no more than in the case of any other elector, for such influences as the right hon. Gentleman has supposed. Then, again, the right hon. Gentleman says that a proxy voter will be able to go into the polling booth and vote for more than one proxy voter. After all you have a Schedule, and there are rules in that Schedule which will make it an offence if anybody votes or attempts to vote by a proxy for more than one voter, and the person who votes by a proxy can be questioned on the subject, and no doubt machinery can easily be devised in the Bill by which it may be made very difficult indeed for anybody to personate a proxy voter or to use a proxy unlawfully or against the spirit of the Act. The plan of the right hon. Gentleman is to lengthen the period between the nomination and the period of election, but I think there are very grave reasons why that should not be done.
If I lengthen the period between the nomination and the election, I do not propose to give a longer period for electioneering in this country, for it is quite long enough.
I think it is too long, and it is because we are anxious to shorten the period that we believe that any attempt to lengthen any part of an election would be a very unwise thing. The right hon. Gentleman made another proposal—namely, that the declaration of the poll should not be made for any particular constituency until the proxy votes had been received. But that proposal would mean, seeing that there would be proxy voters in each constituency, that all the declarations of the poll would have to be held up. The country would be kept for a long period in uncertainty as to what Government was going to be in power, and that might occur at a very critical period in the history of the country. I think that would be a most undesirable thing. All these plans have been examined, and none seemed so good as the proxy plan, and therefore the Government have put down this proxy Amendment, and ask the House to carefully consider whether, by means of the proxy vote, the grievance of the soldiers and sailors cannot be better dealt with by that method than by any other. We have made this proposal because there is a very strong desire on the part of this House to put upon the register the soldiers and sailors who are fighting for us. Twice the previous Government failed to effect that object, and the right hon. Gentleman himself (Mr. Samuel) came down to the House and asked it to appoint a Select Committee to settle the whole of this question, and to solve the difficulties which the Government at that time were unable themselves to solve. The right hon. Gentleman came down with that proposal, but the House would not have it. The House said that it was for the Government to put forward proposals.
We brought forward two.
I think that this is the best method that the Government can apply, and after all, it does many things. It declares very fully, and in the most effective way, that the vote shall be given to our soldiers at the front. And I think every Member will consider very seriously whether he ought not to support this proposal for voting by proxy.
After all, this proposal is not to be made part of a permanent system. It is a temporary device, and it is expedient for the period of this War and the period which immediately follows this War, to have the experiment of one election. This proposal provides the fullest and most effective vote for soldiers and sailors; It is fair all round; and it will relieve the War Office, the Admiralty, and the Post Office of a very difficult duty which those Departments would otherwise have to perform. Further, it will relieve the returning officer and the registration officer of many difficulties with which they would otherwise have to deal; but the last and not the least of its merits, in my opinion, is that it does away with the evils, risks and dangers, as I think they are, of conducting a vote in the trenches when the men ought to be thinking about something other than the turmoil of a General Election. On the Second Reading of the Bill I indicated that I had considered every possible proposal in regard to this question, and that I had come to the conclusion that although you might register soldiers and sailors it would not be possible for all of them to vote unless you had some proxy system enabling them to give their votes. After all, we are animated by the same object, namely, to devise some effective means by which soldiers and sailors may be able to record their votes.
I do not think the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has put forward many arguments to make the Committee accept the system of proxy voting any more readily than before he spoke. The Amendment of the Home Secretary has been very effectively dealt with by the right hon. Member (Mr. Herbert Samuel). The Committee are all of one mind in desiring to make the soldier's vote a reality, and we do not want to be accused, as the hon. and gallant Member for Somerset said, of hypocrisy in merely saying that we desire to give votes to soldiers, and not devising a scheme to effectively carry out that intention. The vote is being given to soldiers not as a reward, because what is given to everybody else is a right of which they should not be deprived. In all questions affecting the community they ought to have a voice—in the great problems of demobilisation, of reconstruction, and of the various reforms that have to be undertaken after the War is over. Therefore, it is of the utmost importance that we should devise a method which would really give the soldier an effective vote. I must say that the device brought forward by the Home Secretary to-day does not appear to me to do this. I do not want to go over ground already covered by the right hon. Member for Cleveland in his effective speech, but I would remark that a scheme of this sort is open to a good deal of abuse. We all of us have the very greatest respect for election agents; but we also know that they are very acute persons, and the devices that could be made under this scheme for personation, and for, perhaps, misrepresentation of the views of the persons who send the proxies, seem to me to be infinite.
It is no good merely coming forward and finding fault with Government proposals unless one proposes to make some sort of suggestion. I venture very humbly to submit to the Committee a scheme which I think might be received for consideration by the Home Secretary and the President of the Local Government Board. The right hon. Member for Cleveland suggested the extension of the period between the nomination and the declaration of the poll, in order to give time for the papers to be sent by post— to go out to the Army in France and to be returned here. I rather agree with the Home Secretary that unless some very special device is made by the Post Office —the sending of voting papers to the various individuals at the front, in their different units, and when there is always uncertainty at headquarters as to where they are, besides the delay in returning the papers—a very considerable time would be occupied. The proposal, I venture to submit, is this, that a card without any name on it, and with blank spaces to be filled up, should be furnished to each soldier in France, at a period when there is probability of an election— it might be some weeks beforehand. These cards could be sent out in packets, and distributed at the time when an election became probable. The moment an election was to take place, a booklet could be issued to the soldiers containing the names of the candidates in all the constituencies. It would only be a matter of some 2,000 names, and this would be received by each soldier. He would then see in his own constituency who were the candidates, and he could put his name and address on the card, showing his right to vote, and place his mark against the name of the candidate for whom he desired to vote. Those cards would be collected and brought home and distributed to the various localities.
How does that differ from votes by post?
6.0 P.M.
It differs in this way, that you have the cards already sent out there, and you avoid the delay in sending out the ballot paper; in fact, you cut down by half the delay of votes by post. The objection may be made that owing to redistribution and the uncertainty as to the constituencies, the soldier might not know precisely in what constituency he really had the right to vote. I believe that is an objection which ought to be taken into account. I do not know how far it would really be a serious objection, but it seems to me that the redistribution will have passed this House, and will have been made known publicly several months before an election is likely to take place. But if that objection is irrefutable, I make the further suggestion that you should avoid actual names of individuals altogether. We are accustomed in this country, in political elections, to have always certain parties standing at an election, and with rare exception there is no candidate who is not known according to some political name. I do not want for a moment to embark upon the vexed question of what parties are likely to be when an election comes off; but let us take the state of parties before the War. We can say that there were the Conservative party, the Liberal party, the Labour party, and the Nationalist party, and if those designations were placed on the card of the soldier, he would simply put down his preference number against one of those designations. If he put I against Labour and 2 against Conservative, that would mean that if a Labour candidate were standing in a constituency he would vote for him or, failing that, he would vote for the Conservative candidate. I dare say this borders on what may appear to be the fantastic, but it is a very difficult problem, and I do not think it is out of place to clear the air by thinking it out in all its possible aspects. I still adhere to the system which I first sketched out of sending out a booklet with the names of all the candidates and their electoral districts. I think by that means and by the soldier writing in the name of the candidate for whom he desires to vote you might get a direct method which would obviate all the difficulty of this rather complex proxy system which really is not a direct vote, and at the same time it would get round the objection which I think is a distinct and serious objection of the delay which a postal return of the ballot papers would entail. I would ask the Home Secretary not to dismiss this idea without thought, because I really believe his present method is likely to meet with considerable opposition, and over such an important matter as this we do not want, if possible, to have an adverse vote which will damage this part of the Bill. I consider this part of the Bill really almost the most vital. I think we are on our trial here to devise a scheme which will really give the soldier the vote. If this Bill passes through without the soldier not only having his vote, but having the opportunity of expressing his opinion when the election comes, I think we shall be preparing very serious trouble for ourselves.
As I understand under the ruling from the Chair, we are now discussing the principle of the proxy vote, and the questions of detail and machinery arising under my right hon. Friend's proposals would receive when they came Amendment comes before the House. I gathered from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel), and I hope I gathered correctly, that my right hon. Friend's proposals would receive when they came forward searching but friendly criticism, that there would be no uncompromising opposition on the part of any considerable body in this House to the general principle of the proxy vote for the soldier. I have represented in this House more soldiers than anyone else for many years past, and this question of the proxy vote for soldiers is a thing which has been longed for and hoped for by soldiers for many a long year, and it is a matter to which in principle we attach the greatest importance. The Committee will remember not long ago, when the suggestion to enter upon these franchise matters was first brought up here on the Motion of the late Prime Minister, some of us, a very small body of us here, attempted to enter a protest on this subject. The question which arose then was the earnest and imperious necessity of giving the franchise to the soldier at the present time, and the franchise to the soldier does not mean mere registration, but means the actual vote. If you talk about giving the franchise to a man who has done so much and simply put his name on a list and then give him no chance of voting, you are tantalising and insulting him, and rather than do that it would be better to leave him off the register altogether.
I think the proposals of my right hon. Friend are an instalment, and an insufficient instalment, of a long overdue reform. Why he limits the proposals in the way in which he does I do not understand, but when they come on in detail I hope to have the opportunity of moving some Amendments. I know, after many years' experience at Aldershot, that under the old system not one-tenth or anything like that number of the military voters ever got the chance of recording their votes. I knew of one officer who carried a commission for something like forty years, and although he had been qualified in innumerable constituencies, he never in his life had the opportunity of recording his vote at a Parliamentary election. It is quite true that the present proposed system will improve that to some extent. My right hon. Friend told us that 80 per cent. of the soldiers serving out of the United Kingdom will be disfranchised unless some provision of this kind can be devised for them. I am glad to note from the speeches we have heard, both of the right hon. Gentleman and of the hon. Member who has just spoken, that on the principle of the proxy vote for soldiers we have already, I think, reached agreement. I think there is no one in the House who does not agree that while the personal vote is better than the postal vote, and while the postal vote is better than the proxy vote, if, as a matter of fact, we are reduced to this position that you have a large or any considerable number of soldiers who will be disfranchised without the proxy vote, then we should give those men the proxy vote. If that is right, then the question has already become a matter of machinery and convenience. I confess I think that the difficulties of the proxy vote have been overestimated. What is going to happen? The soldier will, of course, go on the absent voters' list and he will have the opportunity of the proxy vote. In a great majority of cases it will be the proxy vote or nothing, and he will be very glad and thankful to get it and will appoint his wife or his father or his mother.
As to this bogey of the election agent, I do not think he will have very much to do with this. I very much doubt if we quite realise how great is the change which this Franchise Bill is going to make in the value of the individual vote. The individual vote will not be worth so much trouble when men are voting in masses and when the electorate is so enormous. I do not believe that the system of the Parliamentary registration agent will outlive the present method, and for my part I am not very sorry if it disappears. If you are to postpone the declaration of the poll in order that the soldier's vote may come in by post, how long are you going to wait? Are you going to wait until the vote of the last soldier has come in, and how will you know which is the last vote? There will always be absent voters from whom you do not get a vote. Some very considerable extension of time would have to be made to allow the soldiers' votes to come in by post, and during the whole of that time is the entire country to be kept in suspense? With regard to the interesting suggestion of the hon. Member who has just spoken, I looked into all this question of postal voting in Flanders and I say that quite apart from details it is at the present time a most impractical and mischievous suggestion. If one thinks for a moment of what war is and the state of things going on there, with officers leading the kind of life that they are leading every day and then imagine those officers laboriously filling in ballot cards from a printed form of 2,000 aspirants for political honours, and then the men in the trenches or those who are just out of the trenches signing their crosses against two or three names which the officer has put on the card, why the whole thing is perfectly impossible. I feel sure that the more we consider the matter the more we shall come to the conclusion that the proxy vote is the reasonable and only method for doing pure justice to the soldier. I sincerely hope that when my right hon. Friend's proposal comes up in its concrete form that it will be found that there is no serious opposition.
I do not think I should have intervened if it had not been for something which fell from my hon. Friend who has just spoken and which confirmed a suspicion that I do not think the Committee is altogether aware of the numerical importance of this proposal. The hon. Gentleman said that the election agents would not take the trouble to organise a system by which proxy votes should be received by them, because the value of the individual vote was going to shrink in the future, or words to that effect. I do not think he realises, or perhaps the Committee realises, that it is no longer a case of the old position when the number of persons affected by a proposal of this kind might be reckoned at something like ten or twenty thousand. I do not think the hon. Gentleman realises that owing to the number of persons who will be employed abroad, chiefly in France, that there will be something like one-sixth to one-eighth of the whole of the electorate who will be required under this proposal to vote by proxy. If you take that number of electors you will see that in every constituency, averaging one constituency with another, you will have something like three thousand proxies. I do not think the Committee realise quite what this proposal meant from the numerical point of view. I am going to ask the hon. Gentleman, who I am sure wishes to deal with this subject from a practical point of view, how are you going to find under a system which confines a proxy to one person and one person only, three thousand proxies for the purpose of registering those votes? The hon. Gentleman said that there will be the wife or the father or the mother, but a great number of persons in his constituency as in mine, have three or four sons at the front. The father and the mother will account for the proxies of two of the sons, but what is to happen in the case of the other two sons? Where in all seriousness are you to find the number of proxies which will be required if this system is to be put in force?
I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland has been unfairly challenged by the suggestion that while he professed to want a system which would give votes to soldiers in reality he made much of the difficulties. But you are not really giving a vote to soldiers by this proposal. You are giving a vote to some person on behalf of a soldier who may or may not act in accordance with the wish of the soldier himself. Some hon. Member said that the vote of the man who was abroad was that of a man who left behind him a power of attorney. Yes, but a man surrounds that power of attorney with a good many precautions. What precaution is the soldier in the trenches going to be able to make when he sends a proxy home? He is not dealing with a matter which becomes public, as in the matter of a usual power of attorney, so that it may be seen that what takes place is in accordance with what he would wish. In this matter of the vote the proxy-holder is acting in a matter which in itself, in its essence, is a secret transaction, concealed not only from the view of the person who benefits by it, but concealed from the actual purview of the person on whose behalf that action has been taken. Would my hon. Friend for one single moment give a power of attorney to any person to act on his behalf when he himself had no possibility of discovering how that person had acted, whether in accordance with or against his interests or views?
If you ask me that question, I should not have the slightest hesitation in so doing: I should trust my friend.
I do not think that my hon. Friend would find that his acquiescence in that course will meet with general approval. I confess that if some system could be devised by which the action of the proxy-holder could be made public, or at all events could be subsequently revealed to the person on whose behalf it had been undertaken, a good many of my objections to the proposal would be removed. At this present moment, as I read this proposal, it is not a vote given to a soldier, but it is an opportunity given to the soldier to get somebody else to act on his behalf in a way in which he may not—although undoubtedly he may—approve. It is a most difficult case to provide for. There is one further objection which I will venture to urge, and it is this: that this proposal is not, as I understand under the Bill, confined to the period of the War. It is for twelve months after. During the War it is quite clear it would be difficult to devise a system by which you could get a soldier in France to give his vote on the spot, but the moment an armistice was declared, the moment the actual operations of war ceased, then it would be possible to get established some system abroad by which a man on the spot could register his vote on the spot. From my point of view, therefore, again if the proposal were confined to the period of the War some of my objections to these proposals would be eliminated. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would consider that as a serious objection to the proposal which he has made. I hope I have said nothing which indicates that I wish to raise a difficulty in connection with these proposals. I have put forward what I conceive to be serious objections to the system suggested. Everybody who has had to consider this matter—and the Government to which I belonged did consider it, and failed to find a solution— recognises the difficulty before them. Because, however, we raised an objection to this concrete form it does not mean that we are opposed to the suggestion, but only that we are in the same difficulty as we have been for the last three years.
While heartily supporting the scheme of the Home Secretary I rise this afternoon to urge upon the Government to make it an essential condition of their scheme that a proxy-holder shall be a Parliamentary elector. I should like to ask the Home Secretary whether he has considered the extraordinary—I believe it must have been to him unforeseen—consequences which may arise if the wives of electors are permitted to exercise these proxies? I believe it is not too much to say that if that condition is maintained it will absolutely transform the scheme of woman suffrage, which has already been accepted by this House and sweep away the limitations and safeguards which this Committee has already passed in Clause 4, and enfranchise hundreds of thousands, and possibly millions, of women whom this House has already decided ought not to be enfranchised. What is a proxy holder? Surely the giving of a vote to a proxy holder is to put him in a much more powerful position than the person whose proxy he holds. He may, or may not, have directions given to him as to how to use the vote, or he (or she) may have reposed in him absolute discretion by the soldier or sailor abroad. Certainly I feel if I were to give a proxy to a friend at home I should not wish him to act as an absolute dummy. I should wish him to use his discretion. Much might depend on which of two or three candidates gave more favourable answers to questions in which I was interested. At all events, I think I am justified in saying that a person who holds a proxy vote possesses very much the attributes of a Parliamentary elector. If the Home Secretary's scheme is adopted, and the wife of an elector is to be permitted to have the vote, totally regardless of whether she satisfies the conditions laid down by this Bill and accepted by this Committee in Clause 4, and, more particularly, totally irrespective of her age, where are we? I should like the Home Secretary to consider whether there are not hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of the wives of soldiers and sailors who are abroad who are under the age of thirty. Possibly many of them are far under the age of thirty. Many are under the age of twenty-one. Some are young ladies of the age of eighteen and of sixteen. Under this proposal, and as proxy holders, they have the opportunity of taking part in an election, having both sides soliciting them for their vote, and, in fact, acting as Parliamentary electors for a decade and a half before this House wishes to entrust them with this responsibility. These are consequences which may flow from this proposal, and I respectfully ask the Home Secretary to consider whether it ought not to be a sine quâ non that all holders of proxies should already be qualified to exercise the Parliamentary franchise.
So far as I have been able to judge by listening to the whole of this discussion, there is one point upon which I think the whole House is unani-which I think the whole House is unani-party, we all desire to make the vote of the soldier and the sailor absolutely effective. We therefore start. I assume, on level ground. That being our aim, it seems to me what we are discussing after all is only a particular method—if it be a matter of method—as we are all earnestly and sincerely desiring to achieve the one common end. It is a matter of most earnest consideration to us to consider the particular method. The proposal before us this afternoon is to a man who has been in public life more years than he likes to remember a perfectly revolutionary one. The Home Secretary, in his very interesting speech, indicated that he made this suggestion—I think I use his expression— very reluctantly, and that he does not like a departure from the ordinary prescribed procedure, and he only does it under the influence of absolute necessity. We have not had the same opportunity as the Home Secretary of discussing all these possible alternatives, and I venture to put in a plea for time for consideration, so that some of us who are as anxious as the Home Secretary to get this end effected should have a further opportunity of considering ourselves and in conjunction with the people in the country. Manifestly they are as much interested as we are in so vital a question as this. Therefore there should be careful consideration before a definite decision is taken. Up to within the last very few days the whole country, with ourselves, assumed that the other method of voting as provided for by the Bill was going to be adopted. This afternoon we get this "bolt from the blue." As to whether it is right or wrong I am not for the moment considering. But I want to say that it is not right, without our constituents' knowledge, without their having discussed it in any shape or form, to come to so definite and vital a decision before we have had an opportunity of conferring with them on the subject. Therefore I think we ought to discuss general principles, as we are now doing, and ought not to be asked to force a Division, or to decide absolutely one way or the other at the present time. We are not going to carry the whole of this Bill through the Committee stage before Parliament retires for the Recess. Why, then, cannot we have this preliminary discussion on the matter, and postpone it so that it may be decided, with other matters which will also have to be postponed, till after the Recess?
Personally, I want myself to investigate the matter. I believe that every one of us ought to have the opportunity to do so. We ought to be able to investigate all other possible alternative methods. Some have been suggested here this afternoon. Others might well be suggested. We should like to confer on these alternative methods with those who are immediately concerned with the matter, in the country, as are we ourselves here. I therefore very respectfully put it to the Home Secretary that he ought to regard this point of view. The conclusion I have come to, after listening to this Debate, is that we are all agreed on the end we have to achieve. We have got to devise eventually the best method to achieve it. I want to be absolutely satisfied in my mind as to which is the best method— whether the proxy system at all is absolutely necessary, or whether, if it be necessary at all, it should be confined to those who are far distant, and not granted to those who are in France or Flanders. All points of that kind seem to me to demand, and should receive, the most absolute and careful consideration. For myself, I am not prepared to give that decision now. I want time for further consideration. I want to consider all possible methods which can be devised, as well as the alternative suggestions made by the Government. There is my difficulty! I do not desire in the slightest degree, by what I am suggesting, anything in the nature of obstruction. I am sure the Home Secretary will recognise that. But the Government, having considered the whole question, and having finally come to a conclusion that this is the only possible method of facing the difficulty, is entitled to say to us, if we do not agree, "What is your alternative proposal?" That I entirely accept. Faced, however, as we are under these circumstances, with the suggestion of a revolutionary change, we claim the right that we should have time for consideration, and I believe that here and in the country we ought to give the matter, in the Recess interval, the fullest and most careful consideration. Possibly one might come to an agreement. It does seem to me most unfortunate that on a vital matter of this kind the whole House should be divided, and possibly the whole country divided, whereas if time had been given it would be quite possible we should have been able to arrive at some generally accepted basis so that the end we all have in view may be achieved. Therefore, with the most absolute respect. I submit the suggestion that the final decision of this matter should be left for further consideration.
In the way of possible solutions to this question I believe that the Government proposal of the proxy vote is by far the simplest and only practical way of giving an effective vote to the great mass of our soldiers and sailors. Having listened carefully to the speech of the hon. Member for Stirling, who set forth all the advantages of a postal vote, I think he made it clear—at least he did to me—that whilst there were advantages in the postal vote there were certain drawbacks, one of which he did not mention, but one which especially appeals to a shipowner who has lost as many vessels as I unfortunately have since the commencement of the War, and that is, that if you have a postal vote you may have it all carefully done in Flanders, and a submarine may send the majority of your votes to the bottom. Are the men in such a case to have another General Election, or are people to be returned as Members of Parliament who might not have been returned if the voting papers from the Army in Flanders had not been lost by the action of an enemy submarine?
There is another point. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) pointed out the difficulty of getting sufficient proxies, and he specially quoted the case of the town of Portsmouth. In Portsmouth, he said, there was such a large number of soldiers and sailors that there might not be sufficient available persons suitable for proxies. In Portsmouth there are at present some 37,000 electors. When this Bill is carried, I estimate that there will be 20,000 or 30,000 new female electors in Portsmouth, and surely out of these new electors the men of Portsmouth who are serving their country in the Army or Navy will be able to find a sufficient number of suitable people who are electors to represent them at the forthcoming election. There is only one other matter that I wish to mention. I hope the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will favourably consider the question of not only including soldiers and sailors in this Amendment, but also the men of the Mercantile Marine, who have done so splendidily in this War, as has been acknowledged by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, the late First Lord of the Admiralty, and I hope my right hon. Friend will give this point very careful consideration before the Bill is passed.
As, I hope, a strong supporter of the Government, I do not propose to be deterred from criticising this proposal for fear that any suggestion might afterwards be made that I am not sincere in my desire to give efficient votes to soldiers and sailors. I think it is a pity that suggestions of this sort are made, that because a particular scheme to deal with a particular matter is criticised, therefore those who so criticise are really not anxious to give the vote. I do not think any person in this House or outside has any right to suggest that there is anyone in the House who is not as anxious as he can possibly be to give an effective vote, especially to our soldiers and sailors. Having said that, what is the issue before the Committee? It is, how best this can be done, and the Government proposal for the moment, as I understand it, is that it shall be done by means of a right to vote by proxy, but only if abroad, and that there is to be no alternative. Now, whatever else it may be, those of us who are supporting the Government have no right to go to the country and say that we give the soldier a vote, because a proxy is not a vote, and, in view of the possible election for which these provisions are mainly designed, what is the real object of these provisions? They are confined to the period of the War and twelve months afterwards. They are in the main to see that at the next General Election the great issues which will then be involved shall be decided by the whole community, and that most certainly the soldiers and sailors shall express their views on those issues. I put it to any Member of this House, as things now are, is there any one of us who would care to give a proxy for a vote at the next General Election? Frankly, I do not know how I am going to vote myself at the next General Election. I do not know who is going to be my leader—I am not sure that any Members of the House are quite certain on the point—and what is the use of talking about a proxy to exercise in my absence at the next General Election as being equivalent to a vote?
Not now.
It may be given at any time during the specified period, I know, but the point is this, that a proxy under the conditions which now exist, in view of the possibility of the future, cannot be considered in the same sense as a personal vote, and do not let us for a moment think we are fulfilling a pledge to give these men votes if we give them what the Government now propose by proxies. It has been frankly admitted that there will be certain soldiers and sailors who will be so far away at the time of an election that it is impossible to give them a vote. No machinery of any kind can give them a vote, and you can only do the next best thing, and that is, give them a proxy. I, for one, would be quite prepared to see machinery in the Bill, properly safeguarded and confined to those who were situated at such a dis- tance that it was impossible for them to vote by post, to enable them to vote by proxy. But the issue between the right hon. Gentleman and myself is this: I honestly believe it is possible to give, at any rate, to all the soldiers in France and the great mass of our Navy—unless something is going to happen which one does not contemplate now—a real chance of voting by post direct. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland, I understood, accused the Home Secretary of saying that ingenuity could not devise a means whereby that could be done. I did not understand the Home Secretary to say that at all. I understood that he said the War Office could not devise a means, which is quite a different thing, and I rather suspect that we are thrown back upon this method of providing this mongrel system of voting—or rather a system which has no real value—for the men in France because the War Office will not take a little trouble. I do not hesitate to say that that is my opinion, for what it is worth.
Is it suggested that, say, with an extension of four or five days more than the time given in the Bill, it is a physical impossibility, with the organisation we have got in France, including our Y.M.C.A. workers, and everybody else, that by post these people could not be polled? I refuse to believe it. Of course it would be a trouble, but the War Office do not find any difficulty in doing things in a hurry when they want a thing, and as for saving the Post Office, my experience of the War Office is that they generally telegraph anything, even the most trivial matter. If it is only for the next election, is it too much to ask the country to wait a few days longer before the results can be obtained? Personally, if the alternative to waiting a few days longer and giving a man a vote, is to give him a proxy in order that I should know the result of the election a few days earlier, I prefer to give the soldier a vote and wait a few days longer to know the result, and I think the country would be prepared to do that also. It would entail a certain amount of work on the organisation, but, under the circumstances, I do not think it is too much to expect. Does the right hon. Gentleman think this method of voting by proxy is going to save work? His Clause will provide that the absent voter may, if he desires, appoint a proxy I wonder if every Member of this House has had as much to do personally with registration as I have had. You give the lodger a right to a vote if he makes a claim on a form. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board is not here at the moment, but he will know, so far as London is concerned, how many thousands of pounds his party, as I know to some extent how many thousands of pounds my party has spent in trying to get lodgers to sign a claim. At election time they make an awful row because they are not on the register, but they will not take any trouble in pre-election days. What is the consequence? The right hon. Gentleman's party machinery and our party machinery are set to work to see that the party get as many voters on the register as they think will vote for them.
What will happen under this proposal? It says that the voter is to vote by proxy if he applies. I suppose there will have to be a form. He will not make his application on a postcard. There will have to be some form, for which he will have to apply. It will have to be signed, and I hope it will have to be witnessed. From what I know of lodger claims and other sorts of claims which have been used in connection with registration, I hope that the signature to the proxy will be witnessed. I will tell you exactly what will happen. Twice a year every absent voter will be communicated with by the political agents, and they will say, "Remember, these are your rights. You may not be here; you do not know at all what may happen. Therefore appoint a proxy. If you are the only son of a mother, you had better appoint your mother. You will be quite safe, and if you do not think she will keep the proxy safely we will keep it for you, and send it to your mother when the election comes." If there are three. brothers, the agents will say, "Be very careful you do not all appoint your mother or else two of you will lose the vote. You may be serving in different parts of France, but you must find out which of you is going to have your mother as proxy or there will be a difficulty. To avoid that, send your proxy in blank and we will fill it in for you." In actual practice we know this is the sort of thing that happens, and to call that a substitute for a vote, in order to prevent a little trouble being taken, or a little delay in the country knowing the result of an election is, I think, the greatest mistake.
I do not know whether the hon. and gallant Member for Herts (Mr. Arnold Ward) was very serious, but his anti- suffrage propensities carried him to this extent, that a man must not appoint his wife as the holder of a proxy unless she is over thirty. He can appoint the wife of any other voter as the holder of his proxy. [HON. MEMBERS: "So!"] The hon. Member said that he would see that nobody must hold the proxy but a voter, and a woman under thirty cannot be a voter and cannot hold the proxy. If she was the wife of any other voter and over thirty she could hold the proxy. What I was trying to establish is this: The Home Secretary admitted that this question was full of difficulties. I am certain the whole House are anxious to meet those difficulties. This question is so full of difficulties with regard to the proxy vote that I suggest that we should confine this right to those who will be so far away that it is absolutely impossible for them to vote by post. The resources of this Government are not so restricted that it is not possible to poll within 200 or 300 miles from where we are by post, and we must not be in such a hurry with our election that we cannot extend the time by three, four, or six days, or even by a week. We should ask the country to forego for once, in the interests of the soldiers and sailors, knowing too quickly the result of the election, and we should confine the right to vote by proxy to soldiers, say, in Salonika, Egypt, or India, and safeguard that right by prohibiting any party agent having anything to do with the obtaining of proxies. Let the War Office see to the proxies. Let them provide the form for the people in the distant places, and not allow the soldiers and sailors to be pestered to give a proxy, and, having given that proxy, possibly afterwards requested to withdraw it and give it to somebody else. I think we should leave the proxy vote for those who are too far away to record their votes in any other way.
The Debate must have shown the Home Secretary that there was some reason in the mind of the Speaker's Conference when they made the proposal they did, and did not propose a proxy method of voting. On the Conference we all wanted to give votes to the soldier, and to as many soldiers as possible, and so we propose this method of the absent voter. It was in order to give votes to the soldiers and sailors that we suggested voting by post to absent voters. We also wanted to give an opportunity of voting on the questions before them. The Debate has clearly shown that it will be very difficult indeed for the soldiers under the proxy system to record a vote at the last moment at any election on any particular issue that is coining up at the last moment. None of us know what will be the issues at the next Election. We do not know who will be the candidates— indeed, until almost the last moment no one will be able to know what the particular views of each individual candidate will be at the next Election, and, therefore, it is most essential that if we can we should give to the soldiers and sailors an opportunity of themselves registering their own wishes at the very latest moment. You cannot do that by the proxy system. Proxies must be delivered some time before the Election, and anybody who knows what electioneering means knows that the very first thing that will happen is that immediately after the register has been prepared and the absent voters list has been published, on which will be marked the names of those who belong to the military or naval service, then everybody will stir about to get those soldiers to give their proxies, and the soldiers will do so because they do not know where they will be when the Election takes place, and, therefore, they will hand over the decision of immense issues, none of which can be foreseen, to somebody else. It would be very much better if we could find a system whereby the soldiers themselves could vote. The proxy proposal was well considered by those of us at the Conference who have given close attention to the problem, and I may remind the House that there was considerable discussion on the Debate which took place on the Special Register Bill in 1916, and on that occasion the spokesman of that particular section of the House who were taking exception to that view, because it did not provide votes for soldiers and sailors referred to the methods they would propose. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) said:
I should like to make a suggestion. I think most people see that it would be impossible to apply the postal method to people in Mesopotamia and India, and therefore the proxy system might be the only one that would give those men the vote. Would it not meet the case if we were to decide that the proxy method shall be a method of voting, but that the method which is to be adopted in its entirety and in all its details shall be left to the Schedule. We shall not reach the Schedule until after the Recess, and we shall have to discuss it under any circumstances. If that can be done, we should have the advantage of the consideration of a good many other hon. Members, and we shall also have the advantage of being able to gather the views of people outside. I should like to know the views of the soldiers themselves as well as the people outside. The effect of my proposal would be to give the choice to the soldiers. I think it is quite wrong to say that the soldiers abroad shall be bound to vote by proxy and not have the advantage of the postal system. That system undoubtedly can be applied to France. The Home Secretary has flourished before us this figure of 80 per cent., but I do not think that is fair, because if it is the right figure on the basis of the Bill it is not the right figure on the basis of the amended Bill. The complaint I have against the Government on this matter—and it is a very serious one—is that instead of trying to make the proposals of the Conference work by adjusting dates so that it would be possible to get the ballot papers in time, they have put down such dates that it is very difficult to carry this system out.
7.0 P.M.
I put down an Amendment. Originally I put it down to Clause 16, because I thought that was the right place, but it was ruled otherwise. I have put it down now to this Clause, and its effect is that if an election takes place during the War or within six months after it shall be competent for His Majesty in Council to postpone within certain limits the dates that are laid down in this Bill if it is necessary in order to give soldiers time to vote. Under that proviso, which would only come into operation if an election does take place during the War, I believe it would be quite possible to carry out the proposals of the Conference for nine-tenths of the Army and Navy, and, if that is so, I submit that it is not fair to the soldiers themselves to deprive them of the option of voting in their own persons, or compelling them to vote by proxy. One other point ought to be noticed. The Bill proposes that this system of voting by proxy shall be exercisable by all soldiers and sailors, that is to say, all soldiers and sailors wherever they are. The soldiers and sailors who are quartered in England number many millions. Every soldier quartered at Aldershot will have his name on the absent voters' list, and that is the only chance by which he can secure a vote. Therefore, you have all the soldiers in Aldershot and elsewhere given an option of voting by proxy. I do not see the necessity for it, and I think it is extremely inexpedient and very inadvisable to have a very large number of soldiers who could vote as absent voters voting by proxy. I doubt whether the Home Secretary has appreciated that point. It seems to me a very serious objection. I would therefore ask the Home Secretary to consider this suggestion: That we do not decide definitely who is to have the right to vote by proxy or on what terms they are to nave it. Let us admit that there are certain soldiers and sailors who may be so far away that they cannot vote by any other means and then, when we come to the Schedule, let us very carefully consider who shall have that right and how it shall be exercised. I strongly urge the Home Secretary to adopt that view. I am sure that it would facilitate matters to-day, and it would give us an opportunity of really seeing whether this scheme that he suggests is practicable from the soldiers' point of view. Let the soldiers themselves see what is proposed. Then, if it is practicable, we can extend it to the Schedule, or, if it is not deemed to be advisable, we can limit it as far as possible. My own view is that it ought to be limited very much indeed. I believe that all the soldiers in this country and in France, and even those in Salonika, with proper time and facilities—it is only a question of postponing the count, and I have always felt that Salonika could be added —could vote by post. Then we should have a proper system of voting, and we should not have introduced an extremely dangerous system, save in very exceptional cases, such as men in Mesopotamia, India, or other distant parts of the world.
I am exceedingly anxious, if possible, to get some decision from the Committee to-day and to establish the principle. I want to respond to the suggestion made by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Dickinson), that, so far as any details are concerned, we should, in every possible way, leave the matter open, but if I can avoid it I do not want to have the whole thing thrown over to another stage of the Bill. I appreciate the manner in which the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. G. Thorne) made his suggestion, but we have had a very important discussion, and I do want to know from the Committee whether they are prepared to some extent to affirm the view that a soldier or sailor for whom the system of postal voting is not sufficient shall be authorised to vote by proxy. Of course, I assume, and I am certain, that we all have one object in view. We want to fully enfranchise the soldier and the sailor, but with all re- spect to those who say that, and say it quite sincerely, intentions are of no use unless you show us some way in which the thing can be effected. I have tried very hard—hon. Members do not know how difficult the thing is until they go thoroughly into it—to persuade myself that the principle of the system which is in the Bill will do, but I cannot do so. I am reluctantly driven to the conclusion that you must find some other way, and I can find no way except to some extent to rely upon the system of voting by proxy. I am encouraged by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Cleveland Division (Mr. H. Samuel), and other speakers who, whilst on the whole opposed to my scheme, have yet said that as regards the distant soldier the principle of voting by proxy is admissible. That carries us really a long way. I find some difficulty in conceiving how you can distinguish in the Bill the distant soldier from the soldier not so distant. It is very difficult to frame the Bill to give the right to vote by proxy to the soldier in Salonika and not to the soldier in France. It is very difficult indeed, and I think the right way is to give the right to all, subject to something which I am going to say in a moment.
There have been substantial points made, but, after hearing the answers given by other hon. Members, two points only have appealed to me. It is said, and said with truth, that you are giving, not an alternative or an option, but a substitute. As regards the soldier abroad, you substitute a system of voting by proxy for the system of personal voting. You give him no choice. That is true as the Amendment stands, because we desired to have a simple system, and we thought the best way was to make the choice almost automatic. As regards the absent voter here, he gets his ballot paper and votes, but with regard to the absent voter abroad, he does not get a ballot paper. He is told that when he is going abroad, and he says, "My best plan is to get a proxy," and he does that. At the same time, I recognise that the argument has force, and, if the House at some stage of the Bill thinks that we had better have the dual system, even for the soldier abroad, so that he also may get a ballot paper if he prefers it, I am willing to consider that suggestion. It can be quite easily done by leaving out about a line of my Amendment. That, I think, would meet the most substantial objection that has been made to my proposals. The second point made was this: The man may not be able to find a proxy. I beg to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Herefordshire. After all, most people ought to be entitled to trust their wives. There are, however, such people as bachelors, and they ought to have power to appoint someone not being a wife and not being an elector. Take the case of a father with four sons. I quite agree that it might be quite reasonable to allow each of them to appoint his father. We might extend the special ability of a wife to be a proxy to so near a relation as a father or a brother—
Or mother.
Yes, father, mother, brother, or sister. It is not going very far and there is little point involved in it. I am prepared to meet that point when the time comes. Then it is said that a vote by proxy is not really a vote, that a proxy may not follow his instructions. But, after all, news comes from the front very quickly, and I am sure that most soldiers would know, probably before the nominations, who were the candidates for their constituencies. They would write letters, perhaps a week before the nominations, or a fortnight before the elections, to their proxy, saying, "I see the candidates are so-and-so. I want you to vote for 'A.' or 'B.'" The proxy, if he were an honest person, would do what he was desired to do. I believe in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred people are honest, and do what they promise to do and are desired to do. Putting aside, therefore, all theoretical considerations, you would by this means give the absent voter a good chance of recording his vote at the coming election. I do not put it higher than that. I think it is a way of filling up a very difficult gap in the Bill, and, if I might suggest a course to the Committee. I would suggest that this Amendment is withdrawn by my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Sanders); that I move my Amendment when we get to the point, and that then, subject to any change which may be desired in that Amendment, we put it into the Bill in Committee with the full understanding that changes may be made in the Schedule when we come to it after the Recess, and that on Report I do not hold the House bound in any way by their consent to putting this Sub-section into the Bill, but that we shall, all of us, be open to consider any Amendments that may then be suggested.
The Home Secretary in this matter, as at every stage of this Bill, has done his utmost to conciliate opposition. There is, indeed, on this subject no opposition so far as the object is to find the best practical way of securing that the soldiers' and sailors' vote is registered at the election. It is, however, a very serious question of method, and I would like to indicate how my own view has been affected by the Debate. I did my best to follow the difficulties and to suggest solutions for them in the Speaker's Conference, and I am bound to say that I approached the suggestion of voting by proxy when it appeared at a late stage on the Order Paper with a good deal of misgiving, because I am most definitely of the opinion that a proxy vote is a very poor substitute for the vote personally given when the actual issues at an election are defined. That is no reason why we should not have recourse to the proxy vote in a case where we can get nothing better. I would call my right hon. Friend's attention to the fact that in this Debate there is nobody who does not avow that, in so far as you cannot get anything better, you had better have the proxy vote. I think so far he has made a very good case for the proxy vote, in spite of all the obvious objections which arise to it both in principle and I am afraid in working out. The most serious objection to the proxy vote, of course, is that to a very large extent the soldier is giving a blank cheque to somebody else to fill up at a later stage, and the only security you have that his real views will be expressed is that he is to be allowed to select, so far as he may, somebody whose judgment or relationship makes it probable that he will really express the soldier's view. Still, it is not expressing the soldier's view; it is expressing the proxy's view.
Further, the system of proxy voting is not a system which is adopted because there is going to be an election. It is a system which will have to be adopted six months by six months. It will have to be adopted as one of the incidents of the making up of every register. I cannot shut my eyes to the temptation which that will offer to the astute organiser of all sorts of bodies of opinion to act in sometimes rather undesirable directions. Still, I am quite satisfied, as I believe my hon. Friends are, that we must have the proxy vote in so far as we cannot get anything better. I do not believe there is the slightest doubt that at a later stage of the Bill we shall change our opinion about that. What I am not prepared to acquiesce in is that we should treat the thing as a mere alternative and as a matter of indifference. We should rather prescribe the method of voting by post within such limits as are practicable. It may involve us in the consideration of what are the actual circumstances which will determine within what range it is practicable. We ought to lay down that as the method to be followed within such range as is practicable, and then we ought to provide proxy voting for the limits which are outside that. That is not the proposal which the Home Secretary had on the Amendment Paper, although he has been most persuasive in his statement that it might be recasted.
The question we ought to consider is— if we are so far agreed and so far forward as to have the Home Secretary saying that he will consider how far this proposal can be recast in that way—is it really desirable that we should, after this Amendment is withdrawn, proceed to put into the Bill these new provisions? They are difficult provisions to trace. They involve looking at two different places on the Order Paper, as well as at two different places in the printed Bill. Is not the better course, especially as we have a good many Clauses to get through before the Adjournment, to do what I believe would be in order, namely, when this Amendment is withdrawn for us, by consent, to postpone Clause 18 and get Clauses 19 to 25, hut to do that on the definite understanding that the Committee has expressed its view—I think its unanimous view—that proxy voting is a course which must be adopted outside those limits which it is possible for the Government to trust to the postal vote. Then our discussion will have borne fruit, and the object everybody desires is in a fair way to be carried out. But I do not feel myself disposed to agree to putting in the very elaborate new provisions, which have been criticised from any points of view, simply because of the customary assurance that when we come to the Report stage, of course, the matter will be reconsidered. I do not think that is dealing quite suffi- ciently with the difficulty which many of us feel and of which we have spoken. I suggest that the Amendment should be withdrawn on the distinct understanding that we accept the principle of proxy voting, so far as we have to have recourse to that and postal voting is not found to be possible, and that we postpone Clause 18 and deal with the remaining Clauses.
There is one point regarding this discussion which has struck everybody, that is, the absolute unanimity with which the Committee are determined that soldiers should get their votes in the best possible and most effective way. I feel convinced that that unanimity is not on any side of the Committee promoted by any ulterior party motives. Nothing can more clearly show that that is true than the fact that I find myself to a large extent in agreement with what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) and the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon). With regard to proxies generally, there are, of course, obvious objections to them. With regard to soldiers voting by proxy, one of the principal objections is that if a soldier votes through a mother or a sister he is giving his vote not for any reason which sways his mind, but is giving a vote through the mind of another person. I suggest to the Committee that the soldiers who have borne the brunt of the War on every front should, above any other individual, have the power to express not the opinion of somebody else, but their own opinion with regard to what the Government of the country in the future should be. I agree with what has just been said by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow. Incidentally what impressed me was a remark made by the hon. and learned Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Salter) who said that we were all agreed that the best form of voting is personal voting, the second best is voting by post, and the third and least good is voting by proxy. You should confine voting by proxy only to those soldiers for whom you cannot devise any other method by which they can vote. Having stated that, the matter narrows itself down to this; that you ought to allow to vote by proxy the soldiers who are situated at so great a distance from this country that they cannot possibly vote by post. That, of course, would include Mesopo- tamia, India, Egypt and Salonika, because I do not think you could possibly vote by post from Salonika.
The Government ought to be able to devise some means by which the soldiers who are serving so near this country as France and Flanders should be able to express at an election their own individual, personal opinions and not through the medium of a proxy. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland was convincing when he as an ex-Postmaster-General told us that with regard to postal facilities there could be no question. I have served for over a year in France, and am perfectly convinced that there is no serious difficulty with regard to time. My hon. Friend the junior Member for Dublin University (Mr. Samuels) told me a moment ago—it is an interesting point—that during his recent election for that university he received several votes by post from the Front. There is an actual instance of votes being received from the Front without any particular arrangements being made, such as were suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland. There ought to be no insuperable difficulty with regard to time in this matter. If necessary you could extend it, but I think you could easily do it in the time now allowed. Another point which has been debated is that it is said, this particularly was said by the hon. and learned Member for Basingstoke, that it would be utterly impossible and would be an inconceivable and not a feasible thing to collect by post the votes of the men who were fighting at the Front. I can assure the Committee that that is not so at all. Heaven knows that this War has been a big enough War from the beginning, but now it is enlarged into such gigantic proportions that many of the men, although they are nominally at the front, are, in fact, in a position in which they can perfectly easily exercise the vote. There would not be any insuperable difficulty in collecting votes from the soldiers at the front.
I may tell my hon. and learned Friend that the name of the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Christchurch (General Croft) appears with his to this Amendment. I think I am right in saying that the hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch has himself stated on many occasions, as a soldier, that voting at the front is a perfectly feasible proposition. The one thing of which soldiers complain is the mass of paper with which they have to deal to-day. Battalion headquarters keep typewriters in the trenches, and day after day they have to send back papers of every description to brigade headquarters further behind the line. I admit that they do not like it, but to suggest, when this immense mass of paper passes from the trenches back, and from the back up to the trenches again, that in such circumstances it would be impossible to collect the votes of the men at the front by post, is a suggestion which could only have been made by a member of this Committee, who, perhaps, has not had personal experience of conditions at the front. May I refer to one point mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson)? The Amendment to which he referred also has my name put to it—in fact, I think I put it down first. That Amendment to the Home Secretary's Amendment is intended to do away with the compulsory voting by proxy for all soldiers abroad. I am absolutely in favour of the proxy in the last resort and for distant places, but in no circumstances can I see how, under any system of justice or equity, you can tell a man because he is abroad, if he is close enough to vote by post, that he must vote by proxy and not in any other way. I understand that the Home Secretary has stated that he will favourably consider that objection, which I think he realises has considerable substance. Speaking above all else with a most earnest desire to ensure that soldiers henceforward, as the result of this Bill, should have the vote and should have the best means of giving effective expression to their views, I ask the Home Secretary to consider very carefully and to agree to the Amendment, which I shall move when we get to it, which does away with the compulsory and arbitrary dictation to the soldier at the front that he is to vote by proxy and in no other way.
I have had an opportunity since the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Simon) spoke of considering the suggestion he made. Having carefully considered it, my Friends and I have come to the conclusion that we shall best consult the opinion of the Committee as well as the fate of the Bill, in which I am deeply interested, by acceding to his suggestion. He made it upon the assumption that we are all agreed that the proxy system ought to be adopted where the other system will not work. On the other hand, I am sure he will not understand me to admit that the postal system will work even so near home as in France or in Flanders. I leave that matter open for careful consideration between now and the meeting of the House after the Recess. There is another point connected with this Clause which I should like to have an opportunity of considering with my right hon. Friend and others. I mean the question of the votes of merchant seamen. One reason for accepting the suggestion made is that I hope before the end of the Recess we shall be able among ourselves to consider that matter, and to arrive at a method of doing what I strongly desire to do, giving the merchant seamen a chance of exercising the vote. The course suggested can only be taken by the general consent of the House, and, if I have that, I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will at once withdraw his Amendment, and then the Motion for postponement must be made at once. Subject to what you say, Sir, I hope such a course can be adopted and will be accepted.
I thank the Home Secretary for what he said about the Amendment dealing with the merchant seamen, and I hope he will be able to carry what he says into effect.
I should like to say, by way of confirmation of what the Home Secretary has just observed, that I certainly regard myself, and my Friends who are with me will regard themselves, I am sure, as committed to the proposition that in so far as it is, after full consideration, thought by the Committee to be impracticable to apply another and a better system of voting, we ought to secure this inferior system of proxy voting for soldiers who are further away from the polling booth. At the same time it is quite clearly understood that we shall have to consider, I am sure the Government will be most anxious to consider what they can do to preserve and apply a better system, and that is a matter which we shall no doubt have further advice from the Government about when we deal with these matters.
May we understand that the new Clause 18 will be circulated during the Recess; and, secondly, is it clearly understood that any Amendment with regard to the merchant service shall be left open to the free vote of the House as to the method in which the vote had best be exercised?
I cannot pledge myself to that. We cannot very well circulate Papers during the Recess Of course, I should put on the Amendment Paper any proposal I have to make at the earliest possible moment after the Recess. I cannot say now what will be done as regards the votes of merchant seamen, but I hope we shall have no difficulty.
Will the proposal include fishermen?
That is a question of detail.
It is unusual, of course, after an Amendment has been moved to a Clause and discussed for several hours, to make a Motion to postpone the Clause, but I find, on looking at the records, that there is a precedent—I believe only one—for a course of that kind, and as I gather it to be the general desire I shall propose to act in this case on that precedent. It is a course which can only be taken with general assent.
I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Ordered, "That the Clause be postponed."— [ Sir G. Cave. ]
CLAUSE 19.—(Deposit by Candidates at Parliamentary Elections.)
(1) A candidate at a Parliamentary election (other than a university election) shall deposit with the returning officer, during the time appointed for the election, the sum of one hundred and fifty pounds, and if he fails to do so he shall be deemed to be withdrawn within the provisions of the Ballot Act, 1872.
(2) The deposit may be made by the deposit of any legal tender, or, with the consent of the returning officer, in any other manner.
(3) If after the deposit is made the candidate is withdrawn in pursuance of the provisions of the Ballot Act, 1872, the deposit shall be returned to the candidate; and if the candidate dies after the deposit is made and before the poll is commenced, the deposit shall be returned to his personal representative.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "election" ["a candidate at a Parliamentary election"], to insert the words "or some person on his behalf."
The object of the Amendment is to enable a candidate to do what he is entitled to do under the existing law—that, is, if he is absent on the nomination day to delegate someone else who will deposit the caution money instead of his having to do it himself. There are some cases in which a candidate cannot possibly be present at the nomination. For instance, a candidate is sometimes put up while he is on service abroad, and in that case would not be able, under the Clause as it stands, to stand at the election because he would not be there himself to put his money down.
I am advised that these words are really not necessary. If the candidate cannot make the deposit anyone can make it on his behalf, and that comes to exactly the same thing. It is better not to insert the words unless they are necessary, because I do not in the least want to encourage the idea that candidates may be financed by someone else. It is far better that the actual deposit should be made by the candidate himself wherever it is possible.
Does my right hon. Friend say it is quite clear that a candidate need not be present in person to do it, because the existing system is that either the candidate himself actually hands the money over or else one of his nominators must do it for him? The law is rather strict on the point.
I think these words are necessary. This point has been noticed by persons who have a great acquaintance with the existing practice, and undoubtedly if the existing practice is followed it would not be possible to send anyone else with the money.
In the statement which he made a moment ago, was the right hon. Gentleman referring to the practice as it will be under the Bill or to the practice as it is at present, because I can amply confirm what was said by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Sanders)? I remember an incident at an election in my own Constituency at which my opponent's cautionary money was deposited by an agent, and I was advised that I could have objected to his competition if I had chosen to stand upon my strict legal right. I took no action, but I was advised that we could have rendered his nomination void upon the, law as it was.
So far as I am concerned I have fought seven elections in a group of boroughs which are very scattered, and I have never myself deposited a penny in my life. It has always been done for me by my agent or someone else, and certainly I had no idea of the unpleasant position I was in.
Undoubtedly some returning officers insist on the deposit being paid by the candidate himself. I believe there is nothing in the law to warrant it, but it is a mere superstitution of returning officers. It is not necessary that the candidate should make the deposit by his own hand so long as the money is put into the hands of the returning officer. The old Latin maxim applies, facit per alia, facit per se.
I always found that it is the candidate who stakes the money and hands it to the returning officer personally. To avoid that, I think these words ought to go in.
I have often been told, perhaps wrongly, that it was necessary for me to attend at the nomination place, and I have always done so. I understand the Home Secretary says if these words are not put in it will not be necessary for the candidate himself to attend and hand in the money. If that is so, why not put the words in and make it quite clear? What is the objection to them?
The Bill says, "The candidate shall deposit during the time appointed for the election," so that he has the whole of the time appointed for the election to make his deposit. He can send it by cheque, by post, and the returning officer may be content to take a cheque. If it is sent by hand, the result is the same. But I do not care in the least. If my hon. and gallant Friend instead of putting the words in where he puts them will agree to the words "or cause to be deposited," I will accept the Amendment in that form.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "deposit," insert the words "or cause to be deposited."— [ Colonel Sanders. ]
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "one" ["one hundred and fifty pounds"], and to insert instead thereof the word "two."
This was discussed when I was a member of the Conference, and the reason for my Amendment is that it was felt that there should be some fairly substantial deposit required in order to prevent a large number of bogus candidates coming forward. It does not seem to me that £150 is enough, and I thought that £250 would be better. The point does not require to be argued, as it is a very simple matter.
The Conference said £150. I do not know how they got at the figure, but probably it was a compromise between a larger and a smaller sum. I should think that most of us would say it is enough.
Except for this reason: There is a very large number of new electors, and it is not at all difficult to get one-eighth of the voters even for a freak candidate. Otherwise, you do not get the money returned. The point is that you want to put in some sort of penalty, whether the sum is sufficient or whether it is not. I think the sum of £150 represents a very small percentage of the voters required to allow him to have the sum returned, and that we require an Amendment either by way of increasing the sum or enlarging the number of voters required
The sum of £150 was arrived at after a very great deal of discussion by the Conference. The extreme proposal was £250, but the real difference was between £100 and £200, and it was compromised at £150. That is how it was arrived at. It was only after considering the deposits made elsewhere where it was customary to make deposits, and I do suggest that it should be made at the time of the nomination.
I do not want to press my Amendment. I do not know whether the Home Secretary would consider the point made by the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) as to the alteration of the number of electors before the candidate can get the money returned. I do think that we are going to have an enormous number of voters added, and that there is going to be a certain desire to get into this House in order to obtain the £400 a year. We must not forget that, and I really think it would not be wise to make the amount of the deposit so small that you would get a larger number of candidates than you get now. There may be all sorts of tricks going on. and £150 does not seem to me enough. I am willing to withdraw my Amendment if the Home Secretary will consider the other point raised by the hon. Baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs.
I venture to say that the proportion of votes necessary to be a test of whether a candidate is a freak candidate or not is one thing and the amount deposited is quite a separate and distinct thing, and that they ought not to be confused. It seems to me that if a man can get one voter he is justified in testing the opinion of the constituency, and that no one has the right to call him a freak. But, whether that is so or not, the question whether the proportion should be one-eighth, one-sixth, or one-tenth, is an independent question which we ought to decide, and the question of how much money there should be put down as a penalty for freak candidates is a quite independent question. On that point I think £150 is a very substantial sum which no man would willingly risk as a freak candidate on the off chance of getting £400 a year. It is, to my mind, a sufficient sum to keep out freak or speculative candidates of that sort, and I hope we shall not increase it to a point which will make it difficult for a poor man representing a substantial body of opinion to put himself before the electorate and test the feeling of the electorate.
Before this Amendment is withdrawn I should like to ask the Home Secretary a question which, I think, is not irrelevant from the point of view of the proper amount. At what stage is this sum to be paid? I want to know whether the Clause as it stands introduces any change in the existing law. We have passed the words which say that the sum shall be paid during the time appointed for the election. The existing practice— I do not know whether it is the existing law—is that the sum of money should be paid at the time of nomination. Unless I am mistaken—I may be entirely wrong —I read this Clause as making a very material alteration in that, and that it will be possible under this Clause to make this payment at any time up to the day of the poll. I want to know whether that is done intentionally, because if it is I think it will make a material difference as to the amount of money which might legitimately be required as a deposit against freak candidates.
I should like to ask whether this will not keep the Ballot Act as it is at the present tune. What it says, read in with the Ballot Act, is that this deposit must be made within the two hours after the papers are handed in or if not deposited, as in the case of ordinary election expenses, within the two hours the candidature falls through. I think the law remains as it is.
I think that is so. It means "on nomination."
May I ask one question? Under the words as they stand, might not a candidate refuse to pay money over to the returning officer until a time a minute before the closing of the poll, on the ground that it was clearly at the time of the election?
That is not at the time of the election. The Bill says "during the time appointed for the election."
Would not the time appointed for the election only end at a minute to eight o'clock?
No.
Then, practically, it makes no difference in the existing law.
So long as there is no doubt it does not matter, but in the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference, No. 27, there is no doubt about it. It says, "at the time of his nomination, the sum of one hundred and fifty pounds."
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (2). This Subsection provides that the deposit may be made by the deposit of any legal tender or, with the consent of the returning officer, in any other manner. I do not know what they cover.
A cheque.
Is that what it means? It says "or, with the consent of the returning officer, in any other manner."
It follows the expression in the Act of 1875.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I think the next two Amendments in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders) are not now necessary.
I think they are, on account of our having inserted the words "or cause to be deposited." You would not return the money to the candidate unless he deposited it himself.
Does the hon. and gallant Member desire to move?
Yes. I beg to move, in Sub-section (3), to leave out the words "to the candidate" ["returned to the candidate"], and to insert instead thereof the words "to the person or persons by whom the deposit was made."
I do not think we should be right to insert those words. Supposing I asked my solicitor or banker to make the deposit. I might change my solicitor or banker before the election was over, and I should not want the money to go back to him. I think if a man causes his money to be deposited it should go back to him.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 20. —(Forfeiture of Deposit in Certain Cases.)
(1) If a candidate who has made the required deposit is not elected, and the number of votes polled by him does not exceed, in the case of a constituency returning one or two members, one-eighth of the total number of votes polled, or in the case of a constituency returning more than two members one-eighth of the number of votes polled divided by the number of members to be elected, the amount deposited shall be forfeited to His Majesty; but in any other case that amount shall be returned to the candidate.
(2) For the purpose of this Section the number of votes polled shall be deemed to be the number of ballot papers (other than spoilt ballot papers) counted; and where the election is held under the system of the transferable vote the number of votes polled by a candidate shall be the number of votes polled by him as first preference.
I beg to move the Amendment standing in the name of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ealing (Mr. Nield), in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "one-eighth" ["one-eighth of the total number of votes polled"], and to insert instead thereof the word "one-sixth."
This would deal with the case of the freak candidate. In some cases people do not trouble to go to the polls at all, but it might be that a sufficient number of persons might be persuaded to vote for the freak candidate in order to ensure the return of the money he has deposited. I do not think that is at all desirable, and I think we ought to protect ourselves and everybody against that kind of thing. I think it would be reasonable that the percentage should be increased to one-sixth of the vote.
I hope this Amendment will not be adopted. I think the Speaker's Conference has put the figure too high already. It does not apply only where you have freak candidates. You often have men who come forward of very fine character representing the best elements in the division and the country, and the work they do is educational. I do not think we want to interfere with that sort of person. I agree that if you give that man and those who support him opportunities you necessarily give the undesirable person an opportunity; but I think it far better to be willing to suffer the evil in order to get the good. There are many instances, and I think the House will remember that of Captain Kincaid-Smith, who felt very keenly about national service, who resigned, and lost his seat at the election, but fought for the principle that he believed in. I forget the number of votes he obtained. He was opposed by both Liberal and Conservative, I think, and the result was that he got very few votes. He may have had enough, or he may not, but that is not the point. It is quite possible that he would not have obtained one-sixth or one-eighth, and I think in a case of that kind which educates public opinion and does good we do not want to penalise the man who makes personal and financial sacrifices in order to stand. If you make the amount one-eighth you have done all you reasonably can, but I should be more inclined to put down an Amendment making it one-tenth or one-twelfth, rather than a higher figure.
I imagine that in the average constituency one-eighth would not be less than 2,000 votes.
It is one-eighth of those polling.
At any rate it must represent a substantial amount of local opinion, and I think we ought not to be too anxious to exclude persons who have not a large following by calling them freak candidates. As my hon. Friend who has just spoken said, they do sometimes represent a considerable amount of feeling, and are able to bring out an expression of public feeling existing not only in their own constituency but elsewhere.
8.0 P.M.
We cannot very well accept the Amendment. I think one-eighth is enough. If a freak candidate gets one-eighth of the votes polled he will be a fairly successful freak.
I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to insert the words, "Provided that where a candidate is nominated at a General Election in more than one constituency he shall in no case recover his deposit more than once."
I hope this Amendment will receive more favourable treatment at the hands of my right hon. Friend. It provides that where a candidate at a General Election is nominated in more than one constituency he shall in no case recover his deposit more than once. I think even my hon. Friend below the Gangway (Mr. Rendall) will agree with me that in a matter of this kind, where a person stands for more than one constituency, he should not be allowed to recover more than once.
I think there is a good deal behind this Amendment. It may be that a man ought to be entitled to stand for more than one place, but if he does so I am not sure that he ought to recover all his deposits. A man might stand, for some electoral reasons, not very creditable, perhaps, for a number of constituencies, where he might attract votes, which, under a system of alternative votes, might afterwards go elsewhere. I think, on the whole, it is not unreasonable to accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
May I ask whether it will not be necessary to have some provision, for the sake of local accounting arrangements, as to which deposit a man may forfeit? If some such provision has not been made, I hope it will be done before Report.
I have considered that point, and will try to find words to meet it.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 21.—(Returning Officers.)
The returning officer at a Parliamentary election (other than a university election) shall be—
(1) In the case of a Parliamentary county which is coterminous with, or wholly contained in, one administrative county, the sheriff;
(2) In the case of a Parliamentary borough which is coterminous with, or wholly contained in, a county of a city or town having a sheriff, the sheriff, and in the case of the City of London, the sheriffs;
(3) In the case of a Parliamentary borough which is coterminous with, or wholly contained in, one municipal borough (not being a county of a city or town having a sheriff), or one Metropolitan borough, or one urban district, the mayor or chairman of the council, as the case requires; and
(4) In any other case, such sheriff, mayor, or chairman, as may be designated for the purpose by the Local Government Board.
I beg to move, in paragraph (1), to leave out the word "sheriff," and to insert instead thereof the words "chairman of the county council."
I have put down this Amendment to alter the law in what some people would think a sweeping manner, by taking the sheriff out of the position of returning officer of the county. My reason for this is that throughout the whole of this Bill we have taken one leading line. That has been, so far as possible, to make everything come within the the scope of one administration. In the Clause dealing with registration we have put the whole of the registration in the counties in the hands of the county council, and have made as the head the chairman of the county council, who will be the principal of that administration. I think the time has come when you should concentrate the whole of your election machinery in the same manner. I want to point out, particularly, what this means, to my mind, in regard to saving a very large amount of expenditure. At the present time, under the existing law, we have all our registration lists—our overseers' lists—made up for the revising barristers' Courts. They are printed at great expense, they are in many cases scarcely altered page after page, and when the whole thing has been gone through by the revising barrister they then go out of the hands of that authority into those of the returning officers. The whole of that printing and that work is then undone, and these lists, when they are turned into the register, are entirely set up again, and all the expenditure incurred again, which is a very heavy weight indeed. If you have, as I desire to make in this Amendment, the chairman of the county council as your returning officer, having the whole of the registration administration in the county offices, you will be able to go further, and let them continue the whole of that work, and proceed to turn the registration lists, as amended and corrected by the registration officers, into the register. We look forward to the fact that the number of alterations in the lists, as they are made up by the registration officer, will not be anything like so numerous as under the existing system, where you have the list not in one central office. It is for these reasons, amongst others, that I would urge that this Amendment should be accepted. Another reason is I think that you want to get the whole of your administrative machinery under one roof. This will become more important when you get on with the next Clause, and come to the question of the official expenses being borne by the community. You want to get the whole of the machinery ready to be distributed round the area in the control of the central authority. It may be said that you cannot have it all at the county hall. I do not expect it, but you will have it distributed through the urban council offices, and there is not the slightest doubt that in all cases the urban council offices will be the district registration offices appointed by the chairman of the county council. I think this is a very practical Amendment, and I hope my right hon. Friend will see his way to accept it, so that we shall get the concentration not only of registration but of election machinery all in the county hall.
I do not think the adoption of this Amendment would nave any of the results which my hon. Friend suggests. It is not desired to disturb the existing law further than is really necessary in the present Bill. Ever since the Act of 1832 the sheriff of the county has been the returning officer. It is proposed in this Bill that the duties of returning officer shall be discharged by the registration officer as acting returning officer—that is to say, by the clerk to the county or town council. Really, for the purpose of being the nominal returning officer, the sheriff is as fit as the chairman of the county council. All you want is a decorative person with gracious manners who is able to perform the duties of the high sheriff, and I do not think we need disturb him in this function.
I am extremely sorry the right hon. Gentleman has expressed the view he has. We have to remember that the high sheriff is really a person who does not do anything, but that everything is done by the under-sheriff. It is the under-sheriff who decides dates, arranges polling booths and all the rest of it in the office, and the real difficulty and complaint has been that you have had persons organising all these things for all the candidates, persons who are not elected by anybody and who cannot be called over the coals whatever they do, and who may be most bitter partisans on one side or the other, and yet you have no remedy whatever. I do not suggest that that is at all common, but it has happened. As a matter of fact, the high sheriff in this case under the Bill will be, what he has been in the past, the person who selects the dates of the election. I quite agree that we are going to have one or two days, at the most, for the elections, and that that will not be a serious matter, but unless the right hon. Gentleman can assure me what the limit of his powers will be, I can only hope that we shall go to a Division on this Amendment. I should like to know whether the Home Secretary can assure me that the high sheriff will not have any powers beyond making the actual declaration of the poll. It is not clear what his powers will be.
It will be the acting returning officer who will do the work.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what the high sheriff's powers will be, as it is not quite clear? His powers in the past have been undoubtedly great, and I want to know which of those powers are to be left to him.
I think this is too important a matter to settle just as we are going to proceed to other business, and also when the great majority of the Committee have adjourned to the dining room. I am going to appeal to the Home Secretary to reconsider his decision. The question is whether we shall have as the returning officer in a county the sheriff or the chairman of the county council. Now, who is the sheriff? The high sheriff of the county is very often a gentleman who does not seek that office, and who has had it forced on him against his will and his wishes, and who is in many cases quite unaccustomed to public business. He is also very often unacquainted with the different parts of the county and of the different conditions under which public affairs are carried on by the county. On the other hand, we propose to substitute for the high sheriff the chairman of the county council. Now he is a man who has been, undoubtedly for almost a year, engaged in the county business over the whole area. He knows the people, the public men, and the officials. He is in touch with all public movements, and has been so for many years. It seems to me an absolutely strange and ridiculous decision to have come to that, because in old days, long before county councils or any local government bodies, sheriffs were the obvious persons to conduct the county elections, that now you should perpetuate that anomaly. The whole basis and framework of this Bill is that it should utilise local government agencies and officers for the purpose of representing the people at elections. Why we should depart from that very good principle and object in this Bill I really cannot understand. I do hope that the Home Secretary, if he cannot accept this Amendment, will, at any rate, promise to reconsider it by the Report stage. If he will not do that I hope we shall go to a Division.
I hope the Home Secretary will adhere to his decision. One great misfortune to the country and to the hon. Member for North Somerset is this, that unfortunately he is protected, by being a Member of Parliament, from serving his county and his country as a high sheriff, which I am quite sure he would otherwise have been before this time. If he could have had that experience and knowledge it would have prevented him from making the speech which he has just delivered. I hope that some time we shall be able to get rid of that disadvantage from which Members of Parliament suffer, so that the hon. Member for North Somerset may enjoy the advantages of being a high sheriff.
What about the qualification?
Oh, the qualification is very slight in these days. The answer to accepting the Amendment is this, and it was given in forcible terms by the hon. Member for South Gloucester. He stated that at present we have an authority over which we have no control, and if he acted in a manner which we disapproved of we had no redress against him. That is the very ground on which he ought to be appointed. The suggestion is that you can go to the chairman of the county council, and if he acts in a manner you dislike, at the next election you can turn him out. Anything more disastrous or more unfortunate could hardly be conceived. What you want to have here is an executive officer who is outside and beyond the control of any party, and who has nothing to fear in carrying out his duties to the advantage of the State, and quite impartially. That you secure by having the old officer, namely, the high sheriff, who has a great many other duties throughout the county. He is charged with the execution of the law throughout the county, and though innocent, and hon. Members like my Friends below the Gangway, do not come across the high sheriff, because he has no need to interfere with them, yet this is a system which gives him an intimate knowledge of the county. To substitute, in place of that, the chairman of the county council, in order that he should be subject to the effective disapproval of his colleagues at a time of his election, would be doing something which would be an injury to the constitutional practice of the State.
It being a quarter-past Eight of the clock, and there being Private Business set down by direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means, under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed without Question put.
Glasgow Boundaries Act (1912) Amendment Order Confirmation Bill [By Order]
Considered.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
I beg to move, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."
I have no objection to the Bill so far as it relates to the re-division of the city into thirty-seven wards as provided for in the Glasgow Boundaries Act of 1912. My chief objection to the Bill is that it provides for a postponement of the re-division of the city for a period of three years. Under Section 11 of the Bill of 1912 it was provided that there would be an election of three councillors for each of the thirty-seven wards of the city in 1917. This Bill proposes to postpone an election of that character until 1920, which means that some city councillors will be sitting for seven years instead of a period of three years. Even supposing that one was to take place, the arrangement that is to be put into operation under the terms of this Bill would mean that only one councillor would be elected for each of the thirty-seven wards of the city, Resolutions have been sent by interested parties to the Town Council of Glasgow and to the Secretary for Scotland against this postponement. Notwithstanding those objections we have this Bill presented to-night. To my mind that is a serious breach of the agreement by which it was arranged that contentious legislation should not be introduced for the period of the War. However, from what we see taking place from time to time I fear that the Government itself is speaking with two voices so far as this agreement to have only non-contentious legislation is concerned. Last night we had under consideration a very important Bill concerning the working classes of this country, namely, the Workmen's Compensation Bill. The Bill required certain Amendments, but very serious objection was taken to those Amendments and we were informed that if we attempted to put those Amendments into the Bill it would mean that it would have to be dropped, because it could not be proceeded with except as an agreed measure. We have been told that on more than one occasion. Notwithstanding this attitude of the Government from time to time they come along with a contentious measure of this kind. It is bound to lead to a considerable amount of dissatisfaction. In asking the House to make such a serious postponement of the redivision of the city the Government are doing something that this House has not consented to up to the present time. We have had from time to time the House considering the extension of its own life, but on none of those occasions has the extension been made beyond eight or ten months. In this Bill we have the Government proposing to postpone the date of the election and the redivision of the City of Glasgow for the period of three years. I hope the House is not going to consent to this Bill being passed. I think the proposal made is of such a serious character that I shall have sufficient support for carrying the rejection of the Bill. I intend to carry the matter to a Division, if I can find sufficient supporters.
Does any hon. Member second the Motion?
I do not rise to second the Motion for the rejection of the measure, but I wish to make a few observations upon the measure itself. I sympathise with the view that has been expressed by my hon. Friend that this measure is a breach of a definite bargain made in 1912. It was a bargain made with boroughs and outlying districts round Glasgow, three of them being boroughs, Partick, Pollokshaws, and Govan, and five or six of them being, suburban districts. These boroughs and districts were absorbed by the City of Glasgow, and a condition of that absorption was that in 1917 the whole of this enlarged City of Glasgow would be re-divided into wards, that the whole of the town council would resign and an entirey new town council would be elected. That was a definite condition when these districts came in. My hon. Friend said that there was a breach of the bargain made, and there is something in his observation. I am surprised that the Secretary for Scotland should encourage this measure. Firm as he is in most things, I fear that he is as clay in the hands of the potter when the Glasgow Corporation is the potter.
Was that the view of the Glasgow Corporation with regard to the Gaming Machines Act?
That may not be their view with regard to that measure, but here there is a breach of the contract made with these boroughs, in so far as the corporation of Glasgow are asking that the re-division of the city should be postponed for three years, and that the resignation of the town council should also be postponed for three years. They might have been content with a much shorter period—one year at a time—especially in view of the fact that the House of Commons, when it has been extending its life, has never done so by a longer period that eight or ten months.
There is another point to which I should call attention. The temperance measure of 1913 will synchronise with this redistribution of the City of Glasgow if it is postponed till 1920. The temperance (Scotland) measure comes into active work in 1920, and an election on the liquor question would take place, no doubt, in that year. But it would render it very difficult, if not impossible, if this Bill becomes law, because the areas that are to be dealt with under that measure will be unknown quantities until the redistribution under this measure is carried out, and the dates will be so mixed up that the dividing of the City of Glasgow into areas which are to be utilised in this election will be so late that an election in time will be practically impossible. I hold the view that the temperance people have been sold in allowing this measure to get so far in advance. But they have given away their case, and when the time comes, in 1920, they will find that the areas in which they have to take the election have not been dealt with until it is too late to take the election. I do not know what the Secretary for Scotland will say in reference to that. He is a sympathiser with the temperance movement in Scotland, and if he is still Secretary for Scotland he may so arrange it that the dates will be satisfactory. But if a Secretary for Scotland who is not in sympathy with the temperance cause happens to be in office in the year 1920 I think that it will be quite possible for him so to arrange dates that an election on that question cannot take place. I cannot go the length of moving the rejection of the Bill, seeing that the Glasgow Corporation are practically unanimous, and that the Secretary for Scotland in his wisdom wishes to confirm the Order. Still I do think that the Corporation should have been satisfied with a shorter period, and should not have laid themselves open to the criticism that by this measure they are saving the lives of two-thirds of themselves as representatives in the corporation, as they are having the resignation of one-third in each November, instead of what was definitely promised in the 1912 measure, that they should all resign in this year. With these observations I leave the matter to the House.
In rising to support this Bill I may say that the City of Glasgow look upon its passage as a matter of paramount importance. The population of Glasgow now exceeds a million persons. I mention that to give an idea of the great difficulties that the authorities will have to contend with when this question of the redivision of the wards of the city is dealt with. I was a little surprised to hear from the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Anderson) and the hon. Member for the College Division of Glasgow (Mr. Watt) that there had been some breach of the understanding come to with the Corporation of Glasgow in connection with the 1912 Act. If these had been normal times there is no question whatever but that that understanding would have been carried out. But it is too obvious to point out that these have not been normal times. We have had three very abnormal years, and it was scarcely fair to call on those in authority in Glasgow to deal with this very large and very difficult question at this time. Glasgow, like other towns and districts, is suffering from a great strain. Its staff is depleted, and to undertake a work of this kind would be a very serious matter. I would also remind the two hon. Members who have spoken that Parliament has, as I understand the facts, each year passed legislation to prevent municipal elections, and, therefore, if this order were thrown out and the city of Glasgow were called on to re-divide all the wards in Glasgow there would be no use doing so because it would be impossible to have an election. As I understand, the reason, and the right reason, is that it would not be fair to have a local election of this kind when such very large numbers of voters are away. Therefore, on that ground, I do not think there is any necessity whatever for throwing out this Bill. When the House deals with it I hope that it will deal with it generously in respect of the number of years for which the period is to be postponed. It would be a mistake to have it for only one or two years. The very least period should be three years. It is quite impossible to know when this War will end, and for a considerable time afterward all the towns and cities will be thrown into great disturbance by the return of the men from the front. There will be very difficult problems to be dealt with, and the hands of the authorities should be kept quite clear.
I rise to say a word or two upon one aspect of the question which has been raised by the right hon. and learned Member for the College Division. He has referred to the possible difficulties which may arise in regard to the carrying out of the provisions of the Temperance (Scotland) Act, 1913. I desire to inform the House at once, in regard to this matter, that the Corporation of Glasgow have endeavoured to offer every consideration to those who are specially interested in carrying out the provisions of that Act, in order that they might have an opportunity of expressing their view and of having some provision inserted in this Bill which would fully safeguard the situation in 1920. I am bound to say, personally, that I should have greatly preferred, if possible, that instead of the year 1920 the corporation should have chosen the year 1919, and that would have avoided the possibility of any collision whatever between the provisions of this Bill and the provisions of a public general Statute which held the field. It is only fair to state—and I think, after what we have heard here this evening, the House will agree—that the corporation have been animated in this matter by considerations of public interest solely, and that they have thought it necessary to fix a date in 1920 in order to provide for the proper redivision of the wards at a time when the population, it may be assumed, will be restored to its normal condition after the War. What I am chiefly concerned about is that this Bill should make it perfectly clear that the provisions of the Temperance (Scotland) Act are in no way whatever to be prejudiced by the redivision of the wards in that year. That the hon. and learned Member for the College Division, whom we all welcome as a supporter of the Temperance (Scotland) Act, should be glad to secure the full operation of its provisions I am sure will be received with cordial appreciation in the West of Scotland and throughout the country.
I am bound to say, however, that his objections have not convinced me, because we have had an opportunity of bringing the matter very fully before the Scottish Office, and of having a special prevision considered and inserted in this Bill to meet the case. Perhaps I may, without going into any details, inform the House that the real difficulty which arose with regard to the operation of the Temperance (Scotland) Act was as to the period when the first roll will be available under the new scheme of the redivision of wards, so as to admit of individual electors being identified in the new wards for the purpose of securing a requisition which requires 10 per cent. of the electors in order that a poll may be asked for; and, thereafter, there has to be advertisement of such an application, such requisition and a poll, and under the Temperance (Scotland) Act the polls ought to be taken in November and December. The machinery under that Act begins on the 15th August, 1920, when the requisition may be taken amongst the electors in the redivided wards. It is upon that point that the difficulty arose, whether a roll would be available at that period or whether we would have to wait till a later period, the 15th October. But the point which requires serious consideration, and which I am glad to think already has received the consideration of the Secretary for Scotland, is that if there is any difficulty with regard to these dates Clause 6, inserted in this Bill, empowers the Secretary for Scotland, in order to meet the circumstances of the redivision of the city into wards, in 1920, to vary the dates fixed in connection with the procedure described in the provisions of the Temperance (Scotland) Act, in order to enable any poll under that Act to be taken in that year. I am assured that that provision will completely meet the case.
Does this Section not give power to an unsympathetic Secretary for Scotland to vary the dates in such a way that the temperance measure will suffer?
I quite appreciate the sincerity of my hon. Friend, but I can assure him that the matter has been very carefully considered as to the effect of this Clause. I hope the Secretary for Scotland will again reassure us to-night which has been inserted in the measure, namely, that the polls must be taken before the end of the year 1920, and that there is no possibility here of postponing the taking of the polls into the following year or to a period which would be remote from the period when the polls are to be taken under the Temperance (Scotland) Act in other parts of Scotland. I am only anxious that the House should be reassured again upon the point by the right hon. Gentleman. In the first place, I trust he will satisfy us, that the effect of Clause 6 will be to secure that the three stages, requisition, advertisement, and poll under the Act will be taken over such periods of time as will permit of those stages being satisfactorily carried through, without any prejudice to any of the parties interested, or the views put forward at that time. I think there can clearly be no question whatever of any postponement to a later date of the date of the poll under the Act. I feel quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman approaches this matter from a sympathetic point of view; but there is substance, I admit, in what the hon. and learned Member has stated to the House, that we desire to see this Clause in such a form that there can be no question whatever that it will meet the situation, whatever that situation may be at the time. I trust the right hon. Gentleman will give us that assurance again to-night, for it will give satisfaction, I believe, throughout Scotland. We are making no opposition to the Bill to-night, and I think it is only fair that the House should know that in this matter, and I believe, indeed, on the other questions raised by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson), the Corporation of Glasgow were prepared to consider with perfectly open minds any representations made to them. I think it is a pity, and is to be regretted, that my hon. Friend did not raise his question at an earlier date. If he had raised it in the ordinary way by petition against the Bill, he and his friends would have had ample opportunity of expressing their view, and the situation would have been very different, but to raise it at this stage, when the matter has been carefully considered, and after every opportunity has been afforded to critics to come forward, I think puts him somewhat out of court.
My hon. Friend the Member for the College Division of Glasgow did not speak with enthusiasm of the Bill, and confined his criticism to the expression of pious opinions. I think he was wise in that respect. In approaching legislation of this kind, this War emergency legislation, we all have mental reservations. There is a great deal to be said on both sides. There are objections to the proposal, and there are arguments for it, arising out of the immediate circumstances, and it is on the balance of arguments in favour and against, real arguments on both sides, that we must form our opinion. We had a similar proposal with regard to the existence of Parliament itself. There were grave objections to the suspension of the general election for Parliament, and strong arguments in favour of it, arising out of the circumstances of the time. On the balance of consideration we came to a decision. I think it is worthy of note that of the Glasgow Members, and there is a considerable number of them, none are opposing this Bill. If there was a strong feeling on the matter in Glasgow I take it that some of them would have been opposing it. We are not drawn from one party. There are Liberal members, Conservative members, and a Labour member, and from none of them is there any opposition. The only opposition that has been expressed is from my hon. Friend, who does not come from Glasgow but from West Fife (Mr. Adamson). I think we all take it as a compliment that his constituents display so ardent an interest in Glasgow, but we do not feel that the views of his constituents, whom he represents so well, afford a very adequate or convincing reason why this Bill should be opposed. The arguments in favour of the Bill are very clearly put in one of its own Clauses, which says that, owing to circumstances consequent upon the present War, it is expedient that the redivision of the city into wards, as required by Section 10 of the Act of 1912, should be postponed for a period of three years, and that the election prescribed in Section 11 should be postponed owing to circumstances consequent on the present War. It is not proposed by this Bill that all elections to the town council should be postponed.
The Bill does not propose to interfere in any way with the ordinary course of elections to the Town Council of Glasgow, but under the Act to which this refers it was laid down in consequence of the extension of the city that the ordinary course of elections should be suspended, and that instead of the ordinary election of one-third of the membership there should be a general election and that a wholly new town council should be elected. That new town council would fully represent the electors who happened to be electors at that particular time. At a time like this, when so many of the electors are away, it would be an outrage that a council should be elected and members hold office for three years on a basis which would be unrepresentative of the people of Glasgow. By all means, if it is practicable during the time that the present circumstances obtain, let us have the ordinary election to the town council. That is not interfered with in the Bill. It is something very different to propose that during those circumstances a general election of the town council should take place and so enable the few electors who remain at the present time to select the members. I think the arguments in favour of the Bill are insuperable taken in connection with the substantial unanimity which exists on the part of the corporation and on the part of the Members of Parliament for Glasgow, because I understand not one of them is going to vote against it.
After the observations which have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson) and my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division (Mr. Watt) I think it is proper that I should lay before the House what precisely the history of this measure is. The Glasgow Boundary Act of 1912 made a very considerable addition to the area and to the population of the city. Under Clause 10 of that measure it was provided that as soon as conveniently might be after the 1st January of this year the Lord Provost, the Sheriff and a person to be appointed by the Secretary for Scotland should make an Order dividing the city into thirty-seven wards. Section 11 provides that at the usual time for the election of councillors in 191V there should be a general election of the whole council based upon the new wards. The town council recognised quite clearly in 1916 that, owing to the abnormal conditions which prevail in the City of Glasgow at this time and owing to the depleted staffs of the corporation the necessary steps under Sections 10 and 11 of the Act could not possibly be taken. Accordingly they were obliged, if they could, to secure the postponement of the operation of those two provisions, and in December of last year they applied for a Provisional Order postponing the operation of those Sections for three years. Before they decided to do so they heard a deputation from the Labour Party Housing Association, on behalf of whom, if I am not mistaken, my hon. Friend (Mr. Adamson) speaks. That deputation was fully heard and the council proceeded to vote upon the measure, and by sixty-four to twelve it was decided to proceed with the Provisional Order which the House to-night is asked to confirm. There was only one petition against the Order by a single ratepayer. That petition was withdrawn and accordingly the Order became an unopposed Order.
When I heard my hon. Friend speak about a contentious measure and refer to a breach of an undertaking given in this House, I want to remind him, and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for the College Division of Glasgow, that no citizen in Glasgow persisted in his objection to this Order and that no member from Glasgow has dared to address the House in opposition to this measure. How, in that state of matters, this Bill can be represented as a contentious measure, I entirely fail to understand. The only hint of opposition which I received was a letter from the Housing Association in October, 1916—that is the association which was fully heard by the town council before they decided to proceed with this measure. Apart from that one letter, I have heard of no objection of any kind from any quarter to the proposal made and I accordingly made the Order. And it is only now, after the Order has been made and after a Bill has been introduced to confirm the Order, that for the first time any real or substantial opposition—and I am complimentary to my hon. Friend in so describing the opposition to-night—is displayed to the Bill. What is the character of that opposition, and what are the arguments in support of it? There have just been two points taken in the course of this Debate, so far as I have been able to gather, and the first is that the period of time asked for the postponement is too long. The suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife is that one year would be better than three. I suppose in these circumstances, if the Glasgow Corporation had thought that that time would be sufficient, they would have proceeded under the Extension of Time Act, which enables an extension of time to be obtained under certain circumstances. I have con- sidered the terms of that Act, and I am quite satisfied that it is not intended to apply to a case of this kind. It would be very difficult to work out some of the consequential postponements under this Bill, involved in this proposal, if the procedure had been under that Act. Apart from that, my hon. Frend opposite has reminded the House that it is not anticipated that elections will take place during the War, and that, in point of fact, none have taken place up till now. And, therefore, to suggest that a year is sufficient instead of three might involve the result, the unfortunate result, that many of the persons now out of the country and out of Glasgow would be prevented from registering their vote, as they ought to be entitled to do, by such a narrow limit of time. I can assure my hon. Friends that the time has been very fully considered, and that no shorter time can safely be fixed in order to secure that, looking to the abnormal conditions under which we are working, the absent voters that have returned and the necessary machinery set up before the election comes on and the electorate are called upon to vote.
The only other point taken referred to the Temperance (Scotland) Act. On that subject I join in the felicitations which have been given to my hon. Friend, and we welcome him to the fold. We have been told that there is "more joy over one sinner that repenteth than over ninety-and-nine just persons who have no need for repentance." I have no doubt that his advocacy of the temperance cause on this occasion will be joyfully welcomed in many quarters which have hitherto misunderstood his attitude. He has referred to me as "clay in the hands of the potter"—the Glasgow Corporation being the potter. I fancy if he would consult the Glasgow Corporation in regard to certain of the steps recently taken he would find that they think that I am the potter rather than the clay. That, however, is a point I will not pursue. I can only say that so far as the Temperance Act is concerned the question of the incidence of this measure upon it has been very fully and carefully considered, and so far as Clause 6 is concerned, I think it will be found that there is ample protection afforded for that measure when it comes into force. The suggestion has been made that an unsympathetic Secretary for Scotland might take a different view. Secretaries for Scotland, whether sympathetic or unsympathetic, are subject to the control and criticism of this House. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend the Member for the College Division who is sure to be here, if and when that day arrives, will make it his business to see that any want of sympathy on the part of my putative successor which might operate detrimentally to the provisions of the Temperance Act will be properly dealt with. In these circumstances, as the measure is substantially an unopposed measure, and as no voice, except that of my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife, has been raised against it to-night, for whom I have the greatest respect, but after all he is not a Glasgow member—when I find that Glasgow members with one accord have joined in support of this Bill or certainly have not opposed it, I have no hesitation in asking the House to give it a Third Reading.
9.0 P.M.
I certainly do not intend to suggest in any way that this Bill ought not to be read a third time. I have great admiration for the Glasgow Corporation. Anything they suggest I should always give a very sympathetic hearing to. But I would like to mention the Clause in regard to the operation of the Temperance Act, in which I am very interested. I think it right that Glasgow ought to go in step with the rest of Scotland in that matter. If the right hon. Gentleman is still in office in 1920 I should have perfect confidence that he would see that everything is all right. I am not going to raise a point which has been raised about the dates, because I believe, with the right hon. Gentleman, that this. House is here to deal with the Secretary for Scotland, and to take care that he carries out this Clause. But there are two points about which I should like to have his confirmation. Clause 6 gives him the power, as I read it, merely to vary the dates. There are two points in the Temperance (Scotland) Act which seem tome to be involved which are not matters of date. The requisition under the Scotland (Temperance) Act is to be signed by electors—one-tenth of those on the roll. Now an elector is defined as a person so-registered who is entitled to vote at the election for that area. The area is the ward. I do not see that any alteration of dates could make a man an elector unless he is registered as an elector in that ward, which it is obvious, according to the terms of this Bill, he cannot be. I go further, and would point out to the Secretary for Scotland that in the First Schedule of the Temperance (Scotland) Act there is a note of particulars required in a requisition for a poll. This includes the signature, name, full address, and number on the register. Apparently in a particular ward the new register will not be made up and be ready until 1st November. Between 1st November and the end of December there is scarcely time to complete the processes of requisition, and poll, and these other things. I would press the Secretary for Scotland on these points, because I am very anxious that when the time comes that we shall not find in a legal technicality like this that the provisions of the Temperance Act are bowled over. I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give the House, myself, and the country an assurance that on these two points we are quite safe; these being points, it seems to me, not covered by the Clause, which merely turns on the question of dates.
So far as the first point is concerned—that is, the question of area —I do not think that my right hon. Friend need be under any apprehension. I do not think the difficulty will arise—at least, he has not convinced me that it will. If there is any real difficulty I should be very glad to confer with him, and if we find there is a real difficulty endeavour to secure that it is put right in another place. At the moment I am not satisfied that there is any real danger. If my right hon. Friend will confer with me on the subject I will see, and should it be necessary to protect the provisions of the Temperance (Scotland) Act to a greater extent than I thought I had succeeded in doing, then I shall reconsider the matter.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Representation of the People Bill
Postponed proceeding resumed on Amendment proposed on consideration of Clause 21, Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "sheriff," and insert instead thereof the words "chairman of the county council."—[ Mr. Howlands. ]
I think that the alteration here proposed will be felt by a great many to be the right thing to do. Two reasons have been given by the Home Secretary for keeping the Bill as it is. I would point out that many things have happened since 1832 with regard to county electorates, and, of course, in 1832 we had no chairmen of county councils, and, therefore, these words could not possibly have been put in the Act of 1832. The chairman of a county council knows the requirements throughout the entire county, whereas very often the sheriff takes no interest in the administration of the county. Therefore I think the Amendment would be of benefit and would be welcomed in the counties. Moreover, it would make it more uniform with Subsection (3) of the Bill, where in the boroughs the mayor or the chairman of the council is made the returning officer. Under those circumstances, I think that it would be well if this small alteration were made, and I do not see any reason why it cannot be made. If my hon. Friend takes the matter to a Division, I shall certainly support him.
I will not trouble the Committee to go to a Division after the statement of the Home Secretary, but I do think it would have been a very wise thing to make the Amendment, especially in view of Clause 23, which virtually takes all the power away from the sheriff and simply leaves the sheriff a figurehead. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, after Sub-section (3), to insert, as a new Subsection,
"(4) In the case of an old Parliamentary borough giving its name to a new constituency, the mayor of such borough."
This Amendment bears on the face of it what its purpose is. It is that in the case of an old Parliamentary borough giving its name to a new constituency the mayor of the borough shall be the returning officer. The directions which have been issued to the Boundary Commissions state that where an old Parliamentary borough is losing its separate representation it shall bestow its name upon the enlarged area of which it is to form a part. I happen to represent a constituency which, throughout the long history of Parliament, has always sent a Member to Westminster, and we feel, and others, I believe, in a similar position also feel, that this should be an opportunity of not merely making a sentimental reference to the long historical association with Westminster, but that it should be an opporunity of vitalising the whole sentiment, which undoubtedly is entitled to be conserved. That is not a very important reason, perhaps, but there is a real and, to my mind, a practical reason in favour of this. We are now going to have all the elections on one or possibly on two days. I believe on Report the question is to be considered whether more time is to be allowed.
That has been decided against
That reinforces my argument. I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. All the elections being held on one day, it is clear that whoever is charged with the election in the county will have very heavy duties cast upon him. Here you have at hand an officer experienced in the matter of elections, one who has been accustomed for a long period to act as returning officer, and I venture to suggest to the Home Secreary that you should retain his services in the interest of the division of which the borough forms a part, and particularly because you bring to the assistance of an overworked sheriff a returning officer well qualified to exercise the functions which he has exercised for a very long period of time. It is not a case of putting in a new officer. It is merely continuing a practice which has obtained in the particular case to which I refer for over a century, and by retaining the mayor as returning officer you will be assisting the sheriff, who undoubtedly will be much pressed with work. I have ascertained the views of one or two other members who are entitled to speak from the same point of view that I am presenting to the Committee, and I believe that this provision would be satisfactory for areas besides those for which I can personally speak. I am not sure that the words I have chosen are precise, because it is a little difficult to introduce in the Bill something which is really drawn from the instructions which are given to the Boundary Commissioners, but my purpose is plain, and I am confident that if the Home Secretary sees his way to retain this old returning officer, and leaves the duties in his hands, it will be quite easy to find words to carry out that intention.
I can quite understand my hon. and learned Friend's point of view, but I do not think I can accept his proposal. The case with which he is dealing is that of an old Parliamentary borough which has become merged in a county division, so that the constituency is a county division. Of course, the constituency contains both the borough and part of the county, and he seeks to make the mayor the returning officer, not only for his own borough but for those parts of the constituency which were formerly, and remain still, parts of the county division. That is the effect of his Amendment. I think the proper returning officer is the county returning officer, who is the sheriff.
My right hon. Friend will observe that in almost all these cases the major portion of the electors of the new area will be situated in the borough, and therefore you are setting aside the returning officer of the place where the population is centred in favour of one who has to deal with possibly a larger area but a smaller number of voters.
I quite understand. It becomes a county division, and just as every county division may contain boroughs and mayors so does this constituency. There is nothing which should prevent the acting returning officer from appointing the mayor in this case as deputy returning officer, and so conferring the duties on him. There may be cases where that course would be taken, but I do not think we ought to make that course compulsory in all cases.
I am sorry the Home Secretary cannot accept this Amendment. I adhere to the view which I expressed on a former Amendment, that where you have a local representative body covering nearly the whole of the district you have at the head of that body a man who by his experience of public affairs has a knowledge of all the circumstances of the locality by the control he has already exercised over the whole of the machinery and personnel of local government. I am sorry these two Amendments have not been accepted, and I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether by the Report stage he would not take some counsel with the County Councils Association or other persons to see whether there is not real substance in this proposal.
If I receive a communication from that body I will give it respectful consideration.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (4), to insert the words "Provided that in the case of the borough of Southwark the high bailiff of Southwark shall continue to be the returning officer."
I understand that for a very long time the high bailiff of Southwark has been the returning officer. I know that this borough is likely to be enlarged, and I feel some difficulty in saying more on this point, because the same arguments I have used on my own Amendment would apply in this case. I think I had better content myself with having merely raised the point, and if there is found to be more on this point after consideration the matter can be dealt with on Report.
I hope the Home Secretary will not accept this Amendment. I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) is not here to explain why he suggested this Amendment for the new borough of Southwark. It has long been a grievance to some of us that an official of the City should always be appointed returning officer for the borough of Southwark. This official has no other position in the borough whatsoever, and it is done simply to keep up some old tradition in the city. I am sorry the hon. Member for Bermondsey, who represents one of the divisions of the Borough of Southwark, is not present, because I think he would have told the Committee that at a recent election when he was very anxious to have his election on a certain day the returning officer for the borough, the High Bailiff of Southwark, told him it would be impossible for him to conduct two elections on one day, and he would not give the divisions of Bermondsey and Rotherhithe the day they had decided upon because they had to conduct the City election on the same day. It seems to me very difficult to understand that if in future all the elections are to be on one day why this gentleman, who could not conduct two elections on one day in the past, is so anxious to conduct the elections all on one day under this Bill. We think in Southwark that the returning officer should be appointed in the same way as in other divisions, and no exception should be made in the case of Southwark.
I have great respect for old institutions, and I can quite recognise that the City of London desires to retain this special privilege in the Borough of Southwark. May I point out, however, that as a matter of fact the new borough is not likely to be coterminous with the old borough, and therefore I think it will be better not to press this Amendment now until we really see what this constituency will be in the Schedule, and it can be raised again, if necessary, on the Report stage.
I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
I object to this Amendment being withdrawn because I think it is a matter which ought to be rejected. I do not understand the Home Secretary gave any reason whatever for hoping that this change would be made.
I did not say so.
I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that when the question of redistribution was reached in this Bill, if the new Borough of Southwark happens to be coterminous with the old borough, he might reconsider the point.
I did not intend to say so much as that, but even if the Amendment is negatived it is quite open to hon. Members to move it again on Report.
The reason why this Amendment is allowed is that in connection with the Borough of Southwark there are some old Statutes.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 22.—(Payment of Returning Officers' Expenses by Treasury.)
(1) The returning officer at a Parliamentary election (other than a university election) shall be entitled to his reasonable charges not exceeding the sums specified in the scale of maximum charges framed under this Section in respect of services and expenses of the several kinds mentioned in the said scale which have been properly rented or incurred by him for the purposes of the election.
(2) The amount of any such charges shall be paid by the Treasury out of moneys provided by Parliament on an account being submitted to the Treasury in accordance with regulations made under this Section; but the Treasury may, if they think fit, before payment apply to the Court as defined by this Section for the taxation of the account; and the Court shall have jurisdiction to tax the account in such manner and at such time and place as the Court thinks fit, and finally to determine the amount payable to the returning officer.
(3) Where an application is made for the taxation of a returning officer's account, the returning officer may apply to the Court to examine any claim made by any person against him in respect of matters charged in the account; and the Court, after notice given to the claimant and after giving him an opportunity to be heard and to tender any evidence, may allow or disallow or reduce the claim objected to, with or without costs; and the determination of the Court shall be final for all purposes and as against all persons.
(4) The Treasury shall prescribe a scale of maximum charges for the purposes of this Section and may revise the scale as and when they think fit, and may also made Regulations as to the time and manner and form in which accounts are to be rented to them for the purpose of the payment of the charges.
(5) The Court for the purposes of this Section shall be, as respects an election in the City of London the Lord Mayor's Court; and elsewhere in England and in Ireland the County Court having jurisdiction at the place of nomination for the election to which the proceedings relate; and as regards Scotland "the Court" shall mean the Auditor of the Court of Session.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "officer," to insert the words "or acting returning officer."
I accept this Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert the words "on the request of the returning officer for an advance on account of discharges, the Treasury may, if they think fit, and on such terms as they think fit, make such an advance."
Where there may be heavy expenses it is thought that there should be some power to make an advance so that the returning officer will not be for a long time a considerable sum out of pocket. This does not mean any new burden on the Treasury, but it gives them power to pay some money in advance.
Amendment agreed to.
I desire to move, in Sub-section (4), to leave out the words "Treasury shall prescribe a scale of maximum charges for the purposes of this Section, and may revise the scale as and when they think fit, and may," and to insert instead thereof the words "scale of maximum charges for the purposes of this Section shall be as set out and defined in the— Schedule to this Act. but the Treasury shall."
The scale of charges ought to be embodied in a Schedule of the Bill. This has been so in all previous Statutes, and I do not think it ought to be left to officials of the Treasury to vary the scale as they may think fit. No one can predict what they might do. The returning officer might not be at liberty to spend on a scale necessary to ensure the election being efficiently conducted. I object to having these scales laid down from time to time by Order in Council, and, except that the Treasury now has to meet the expenses, and not the unfortunate candidate, I cannot see why this alteration should be made. I do not think the Treasury require the protection asked for here, and I consider that the scale of charges should be fixed and embodied in a Bill. I do not know whether there would be any difficulty about it, but it would certainly be according to precedent.
I do not know whether the hon. Baronet has got a schedule on the Paper.
No; I cannot possibly have a schedule. It is a very difficult thing to prepare.
The hon. Baronet must tell me why, because it is really important. The Committee has a right to have the Amendment before it as a whole before it decides.
In this case, it would be very difficult for any private Member to frame a schedule embodying all these charges. Probably there is no reason why the existing charges should not continue, but surely the point ought to be definitely raised about putting these various figures in a schedule. I should have thought that this was rather an exceptional case. In an ordinary case one does put it in a schedule, but in this case it would be very difficult to do so.
I should have thought that the merits of the Amend- ment turned on what was in the Schedule. I cannot see how the Committee can discuss the merits of this proposal without seeing the Schedule.
The Committee know exactly what is the present scale of charges. There is a regular scale fixed by Statute, and I presume that scale of charges will continue unless there is some good reason to amend it.
If the hon. Member for the purpose of the discussion says the scale of charges already in existence—
The Schedule to the Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act of 1875.
I will accept that. We must deal with it in that way.
I beg to move to leave out the words "Treasury shall prescribe a scale of maximum charges for the purposes of this Section and may revise the scale as and when they think fit, and may," and to insert instead thereof the words "scale of maximum charges for the purposes of this Section shall be as set out and defined in the Schedule to the Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875, but the Treasury shall."
I could not possibly accept the old scale of charges. That would leave the existing scale in operation. The hon. Member could not have drawn a new scale just as we could not, because the whole system is new, and we want time to consider it and see what the scale ought to be.
We are reducing the expenses to the candidate and the amount it is possible to spend on an election, but does anyone suggest that the machinery of an election is going to cost less than it does now? [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes."] If my right hon. Friend is not going to accept the Amendment it is no use pressing it and taking up the time of the Committee.
Mr. ROWLANDS rose—
I understand that the hon. Baronet desires to withdraw the Amendment.
I am not prepared that it should be withdrawn until the matter is cleared up. He has raised a point of very grave and great importance, and the Home Secretary has told him that it is quite impossible to accept the Schedule in the Act of 1875. If hon. Members will kindly turn to the Parliamentary Debates of 1894 they will find that there was a Debate, and the House by a majority of 127 endorsed an Amendment to that Schedule, one of the principal speakers being Lord James, who was the father of the Act of 1875. In that Debate Mr. Morley and Lord Randolph Churchill also took part. In 1906 the House unanimously passed a Resolution in favour of the Amendment of that Schedule, and it is ridiculous that we should put into a new Schedule the maximum charges that were passed in 1875 and which Sir Henry James himself said should be at least reduced by one-third. I hope that we may have some figures given us by the Home Secretary, but that there will be nothing approaching those of the Act of 1875.
The point in which I and other hon. Members are interested is whether the scale of charges is to be included in the Act or not. Every candidate would be glad if the scale of charges could be materially reduced. The only thing we are concerned about is that the election should be carried out efficiently, and that the opinion of the electors should be properly ascertained. It is important for the conduct of the elections that the Bill should contain a scale of maximum charges, and, if the right hon. Gentleman could hold out any expectation that the reduced scale of maximum charges will be included in the Act, I for one should think it quite right that the Amendment should be withdrawn, because that really is the only material point. The matter does want a little further consideration, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will meet the hon. Baronet on that point.
I hope my hon. Friend will not persist in his Amendment. The scale of maximum charges was put' into the Act of 1875 to protect the interests of individuals when candidates had to pay their own expenses. They had to get some guarantee that the charges which they had to bear were reasonable. A scale was drawn up, but I do not believe any Member of this House who has gone carefully into his election expenses is at all satisfied with that scale of charges. They could not only be reduced by one-half, but very substantially by more than one-half. We had to pay for ballot-boxes as if they were new every time they are used, and so on. Now circumstances have changed. The Treasury are going to pay this money, and I hope the Government will not hamper itself with a scale of charges. I hope that the Treasury will scrutinise very carefully those returning officers' expenses and will settle them upon their merits. If that is to be done, there must be no scale of charges put into the Bill. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will resist the Amendment and will announce that the Treasury, in paying these expenses, will scrutinise every Bill put in by each separate returning officer and will see that it gets value for the money that it pays to the returning officers. If a scale of maximum charges is put in that scale will inevitably become the scale of minimum charges, as every Member of the Committee knows. As it is now a matter for the Treasury, the best protection for the Treasury is to leave out a scale. The best protection for the private Member was to put in a scale. I hope that the Government will see that the changed circumstances necessitate their refusing to accept the Amendment now before the Committee.
Amendment negatived.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (4), after the word "time" ["make Regulations as to time"], insert the word "when."—[ Sir G. Gave. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 23.—(Discharge of Returning Officers' Duties by an Acting Returning Officer.)
Except as herein provided the duties of returning officer at Parliamentary elections (other than a university election) shall be discharged by the registration officer as acting returning officer, and the acting returning officer shall have all the powers, duties, and liabilities of the returning officer under any enactments relating to Parliamentary elections (including the power of appointing deputies), and those enactments (including this Act) shall have effect accordingly.
This Section shall not apply to any duties which the returning officer reserves to himself and undertakes to perform in person.
Any appointment of a deputy by the acting returning officer shall be subject to the approval of the Local Government Board.
I beg to move, after the word "than" ["other than a university election"], to insert the words-"at a Parliamentary, county, or."
I should like to know from the Home Secretary what is the reason for transferring the duties of acting returning officer from the under-sheriff to the registration, officer. In Clause 21 the sheriff is made the returning officer, but when we come to Clause 23 the acting returning officer is to be the registration officer. I can see no reason for that. In the first place, the under-sheriff has always been the acting returning officer. This Bill repeals Statutes relating to these duties going: back to the fifteenth century. Even before then, if I am right in my history, the under-sheriff presided in his court at the election of the Knights of the Shire. Secondly, a different system is to prevail in Ireland, because there the under-sheriff is still to continue to perform the duties of returning officer. Thirdly, I do not think the Government have really considered the amount of work now thrown on the clerks of the peace. In addition to the work they now do, this Bill proposes to put on the clerks of the peace of the county, or the clerk of the county council—they generally hold both offices —the duty of acting as returning officer. In putting this provision in the Clause the Government did not quite realise what a large amount of work is entailed on the deputy-returning officer in the conduct of a General Election. During the whole period of that election his time will be exclusively taken up with it. His duties as clerk of the county are multitudinous. He presides over a number of committees and is the life and soul of the work of the county council. This means that the whole of the county council work will be hung up during the period of the election. That is adding unnecessarily to the serious amount of work the clerk to the county council has to perform. I can see no reason at all why the under sheriff is displaced, in fact, I see every reason why, with his knowledge of electioneering matters, he should continue to perform the duty he has hitherto performed. There is a minor point in favour of the under-sheriff as against the clerk of the county council, which is that the clerk to the county council is already responsible as registration officer for the preparation of the register. He has both to act as revising barrister, and to be responsible for the register from the beginning. At all contested elections certain questions arise as to the validity of votes. It is desirable that upon such questions a fresh mind, like that of the under-sheriff, should be brought to bear. It is preferable that he should decide those questions that arise on the register compiled by the registration officer rather than that the registration officer himself should have to do it. For these reasons I urge that the Amendment would add to the easy working of elections, and should be accepted.
I am afraid that I do not quite follow the Amendment.
I believe I understand the objection you were about to take. I pointed out that no statutory power is necessary to put this duty on the under sheriff, as he already has that statutory duty to perform. Both by custom and by Statute which has come down from centuries, he is the acting returning officer. I took the view that if we excluded the county as well as the university from this Clause, as my Amendment proposes, the duty would still remain on the under sheriff, and that he would be the person who would act on behalf of the sheriff as returning officer.
I suppose the hon. Member means that the Clause should read "other than at a Parliamentary, county, or a university election."
Yes.
I understand that the hon. Member wants to keep the under sheriff as returning officer for counties in future as in the past. Instead of that, the Bill proposes that in counties the clerk to the county council is to be the returning officer. Personally, I am strongly in favour of the proposal in the Bill. The under-sheriff is a person whom we all respect as a professional man, but he is appointed, first of all, by the High Sheriff, who is the one man in the county who is to be allowed to appoint the returning officer for the whole of the divisions of the county. That is absolutely undemocratic and utterly indefensible.
By the Bill, the sheriff remains the returning officer.
Yes, but under the Bill the acting returning officer is going to be the clerk to the county council. I am perfectly certain that that will be a much more satisfactory solution of our difficulties than to leave that duty with the under-sheriff. The under-sheriff is responsible to nobody except the High Sheriff. The High Sheriff, as a rule, knows and cares little about elections and about the duties of the returning officer. If the county council clerk is made the returning officer, the result of that is that you have a paid servant, a very competent servant, the most carefully selected servant in the whole county as the returning officer. If he does what he ought not to do, which I do not for a moment expect, his conduct and his action will be criticised in the county council, and he may be held responsible, for he can be asked to explain it, and it seems to me altogether an advantage to the community generally that the person responsible for these very important duties, which require to be carried out so carefully and impartially, should be a person whose conduct can be impugned, if necessary, before a representative body; It would be very hard if cities were to have their town clerks as returning officers, persons whose conduct could be impugned, and that in counties, which might have many divisions and large divisions, the returning officer was to be a person not amenable to the criticism of elected representatives of some body or other. I therefore strongly hope that the Home Secretary will leave the Bill as it is, and that we shall have clerks of county councils, who are extremely able officials, to be the returning officers.
This Clause carries out exactly the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference. It considered the matter, and recommended in paragraph 26 of the Report that
"The duties of returning officers in England and Wales shall be discharged by a deputy returning officer, who shall be in the case of a county the clerk to the county council, and in the case of a borough the town clerk."
I have not a word to say against the under-sheriffs or any criticism to offer as to the way in which they have carried out their duties, but I apprehend that the desire of Mr. Speaker's Conference was that the whole of this matter should be carried out by the county authority. The home of registration is in the county hall. The preparation of the returning officer's work will take place in the county hall. The declaration of the poll may take place in the county hall or the town hall of the borough, and the whole scheme is that in future this shall be the duty of a county official, and that he shall be the returning officer. Of course, it is quite open to him to, and I dare say in many cases he would, appoint the under-sheriff as an experienced person to carry out the duties, but it ought to be in his discretion as to whether he takes that course or not.
In the Bill the sub-sheriff is preserved in Ireland as the returning officer. I presume there would be no difficulty when we come to the Irish Clauses in discussing the question of his remuneration, because there is a difficulty about the remuneration of the sheriffs under the present system. I assume that will be left open for future discussion.
With regard to Scotland, we have a better system even now than that proposed by my right hon. Friend. The sheriff in Scotland, who is a County Court judge, is the returning officer, and he is a competent authority, perfectly unbiassed, and absolutely fair, and I am thankful to think that this Bill preserves him in that position. We should certainly not like to see our county clerks in Scotland exercising this jurisdiction. We know how difficult it is. I have seen in my election the great difficulty the sheriff has had in making up his mind whether a ballot paper is good or bad.
I have had representations from my Constituency to the effect that there is a strong feeling that the person who prepares the register should not be the returning officer, and that feeling is stronger perhaps than the right hon. Gentleman may be aware of. By no means would it be a desirable thing to put this duty of returning officer upon the clerk of the council, who has an enormous lot to do already, instead of putting it upon an impartial person who has not prepared the register, and who is therefore more likely to point out any shortcoming or defect in it at the time when the election takes place. I wish to put it on record that it is by no means to be assumed that the country is unanimous in thinking that this duty ought to be put upon the county authority.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to insert, as a new Subsection,
"(4) A returning officer at a Parliamentary election shall not, if all his. duties are discharged by the acting returning officer, be disqualified by reason of being returning officer for being a candidate at the election."
The object of this is to prevent a sheriff from being disqualified from standing for Parliament when he delegates all his duties to the acting returning officer. A sheriff cannot to-day stand for Parliament in his county. Now that we are enabling him to get rid of his duties as returning officer it is only fair that he should also get rid of his disqualification and be free to stand as a candidate for Parliament.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 24.—(Scale of Election Expenses.)
(1) The provisions set out in the Third Schedule to this Act shall be substituted for Part IV. and paragraph (3) of Part V. of the First Schedule to the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883 (which relate to the maximum scale of election expenses), and that Act shall have effect accordingly.
(2) Any duly nominated candidate at a Parliamentary election shall, subject to regulations of the Postmaster-General, be entitled to send, free of any charge for postage, to each registered elector for the constituency, one postal communication not exceeding one ounce in weight.
For the purpose of this provision candidates who are under paragraph (4) of Part V. of the First Schedule to the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, deemed to be joint candidates at an election shall be treated as a single candidate.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "duly nominated."
I move this Amendment not with a view to pressing it, but in order in raise a point which I hope the Government will consider before the Report stage. The intention of this free postage Sub-section is, I presume, to enable candidates to send their election address or other election matter free of post to the electors. But a candidate might, and in many cases would, wish to send out his election address before he is duly nominated and apparently the Sub-section as drafted would not allow this, unless it could perhaps be arranged under the regulations suggested to be made by the Postmaster-General. Whether the wording of the Clause would preclude a regulation of that sort I am not quite sure, but I should rather think it would. I would suggest that any person might be allowed to pay a deposit for the postage of an election address, although he was not at that time a duly nominated candidate, and if later he became a duly nominated candidate the sum so paid as deposit should be returned to him. The Post Office ought to have some security. It cannot allow anyone who describes himself as being about to become a candidate to have the privilege of free postage. But I think some arrangement could be made so as to prevent the difficulty I have described, and I trust the Government will consider this before the Report stage.
If we left out these words anyone could send out an address and have free postage subject to giving security. I feel some hesitation without consideration in assenting to the proposal. I will think the matter over and take advice on the subject.
I only moved my Amendment in order to raise the point, and on the undertsanding that it will be considered on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), after the word "Parliamentary" ["Parliamentary election"], to insert the words "and local government."
The object of this Amendment I will put very shortly. It means that if you are going to grant certain privileges to those who are aspiring to Parliamentary honours, in the form of giving them free postage, that privilege should also be extended to those desirous of obtaining local government honours. The feeling is that in the one case there is a certain payment of salary and great honour, but that in the other case there is no salary and. like a prophet in his own country, there is very little honour about it at all, certainly not what the man deserves. I would also like to point out that this is really not a grant of money in any shape or form, because it does not cost the Government anything at all. It is really only a privilege of posting packets free of any charge in connection with local government elections as well as Parliamentary elections.
I could not possibly assent to this Amendment. The free postage is not free to everybody, for it does place a real burden on the Exchequer. I had trouble enough to get the Post Office to assent to the Clause in the Bill providing for free postage at Parliamentary elections, and if you were to suggest that the same privilege should be allowed at all the local government elections that take place every year and not only every four or five years, I am sure that the objections of the Post Office would be very much stronger than they are, and certainly they would be justified. The scale for expenses, as the hon. Gentleman knows, does not apply to local government elections at all, but only to Parliamentary elections, and I do not think this ought to be applied to local government elections.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), after the word "for" [" any charge for postage "] to insert the word "inland."
May I draw the attention of the Home Secretary to the fact that that might prevent the sending of letters to the soldiers at the Front? I do not suppose he means that, but it is possible that the insertion of "inland" would mean that you could not send anywhere outside the United Kingdom.
At the inland rate.
I am afraid that does not cover the whole case, because we have also to take into account the cases of the seamen, fishermen, and others who are at any rate being considered, and although by rights the postage to men in the Army and Navy might be sent at inland rates that would not be possible in the case of some seamen to whom it might be desired to send postal matter under this Clause I quite see the Government's point of view, and I think they are right, in trying to keep this within reasonable limits, but we are trenching upon rather difficult ground and although I do not want to oppose the Home Secretary's Amendment to-night I think it will require further consideration when we come to deal with the votes of seamen and other persons at a later stage of the Bill. I only want to put these words in as a caution so that the matter may not be overlooked.
10.0 P.M.
Is it really necessary to insert this word at all? To whom may packets be sent free of postage? Only to registered electors for the constituency, and if the registered elector for the constituency is on the absent voters' list and is abroad, why should not he receive a packet by free postage just the same? The cases are so few that I really do not think it is worth while to introduce this complication and make a candidate pay extra postage on a certain small proportion of the packets. If it is the intention of Parliament to enable every elector to receive election matter free of postage I do not think it makes any difference whether he happens to be in the country or out of the country.
Take the case of the ordinary elector out in India or some foreign country. Unless you insert this word, it will not only cost the Post Office time and trouble, but we should have to pay the foreign authority for their share of the transmission of the matter—indirectly, it is true. Nobody else does it, and it would fall on the Government.
There would be no charge on the Government.
I should not have thought that the foreign Post Office would take the letter free of charge; I do not mean an individual charge for each letter, but some contract under which the letters were transmitted; and that would cost something.
Everybody carries everybody else's.
I did not put down this Amendment at my own suggestion, but because it was desired by the Post Office, and I should be reluctant to withdraw it without consulting them. If the Committee would insert it now we might make a change later to meet the point that has been raised.
I suggest that it would be better to put not this word in—because as it stands it could not go in—but some words to meet the case which the Home Secretary or the Post Office think is necessary on the Report stage. The whole matter is so trifling that this word could not possibly go in in view of What the right hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) has said, knowing that we should have to alter it on Report.
I will not spend any more time on it, and will ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "communication" ["postal communication"], insert the words "containing matter relating to the election only, and."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "one ounce" ["one ounce in weight"], and to insert instead thereof the words "four ounces."
The reason I do that is one on which I can appeal to all Members present, because they will know from practical experience that 1 oz. at election time, although it would be some advantage to have free postage, would, as a matter of practice, be of very little use. Everyone knows that the first communication probably contains the election address, a window paper, and also perhaps one or more leaflets dealing with various phases of the election, and I think members of the Committee will agree that it is quite impossible to get all that in under the weight of 1 oz. It seems to me that what was in the minds of the Government in drafting this Clause was that they were assuming the present postal rates, the war rates, for the purposes of the Clause. Before the War the postal letter rate was 4 ozs. for 1d., and it does seem to me that if this Clause is to be of any great use you certainly want to increase the rate from 1 oz. to 4ozs., which was the weight allowed before the War for 1d. stamp. I hope the Home Secretary will favourably consider this, and will accept my Amendment.
There are very many advantages to be conferred on Members of Parliament by this Bill, but I think the hon. Member is going a bit too far in asking the country to take 4 ozs. for nothing. I have a much more modest Amendment down later on, to the effect that there should be one free post to the extent of 1 oz., and if any candidate should increase the weight of the letter he should pay for it. I think the hon. Member goes a bit too far in his Amendment, and I hope it will not be accepted.
In connection with this matter of election expenses, generally, I think the Committee ought to bear in mind the possibility that we may be going too far in limiting the opportunities of arousing the interest of and instructing the electorate. It is a very desirable thing to cut down election expenses, and to limit the burden cast upon the Post Office; but also it is necessary that a democracy should have placed clearly and adequately before them the issues at a General Election and at a by-election. The greatest danger in the working of a democracy is the indifference of the elector, and in the laudable desire to limit expenditure and electoral activities in various directions we may possibly overshoot the mark, and find, in future, that we may get much too small a portion of the electorate taking an interest in the election, and that the electorate may not be fully informed of the issues. That general remark has particular application in this case. You are cutting down very greatly the expenses that candidates are allowed to defray, and it will be a matter of great importance to candidates to consider precisely how much they can legally do in the way of propaganda during an election. Postage will be a very important item, particularly when you have constituencies which will contain, on the average, 20,000 electors, because the present electorate will be doubled, and consequently the expense of sending out one postal communication will be twice what it is at the present time. There is this excellent proposal in the Bill, following, I think, the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference, that there should be one free postage. One ounce will contain a very small quantity of printed matter, very small indeed, and you do not want things to be sent out to the electors on flimsy paper, so closely printed that the indifferent elector will not read it. For these reasons I would very earnestly ask the Government not to dismiss offhand this suggestion that the rate of 1 oz. should be increased. It is not a suitable alternative to say that if a candidate wants more let him pay for it, because he finds that he is not able to pay for it out of the very limited sum at his disposal for the purposes of the election. I should like to see it 4 ozs., as suggested by my hon. Friend, and I hope that that will be supported by other Members of the Committee, and that the Government will see their way to give this redress.
We must ail agree that if we have a democracy we want an instructed democracy, and, if so, we may spend a little money in instructing them; if not, on the merits of the case, perhaps on the merits of ourselves. No doubt the Speaker's Conference was desirous of cheapening elections for those who were seeking the good will of the constituency. But the Speaker's Conference gave us no guide beyond this, that it was willing to give a free postage to every candidate; but it did not give us any indication as to the number of ounces which were allowed to the candidate. That we had to decide ourselves, and the Government has put in 1 oz. There seems to be some desire expressed for 4 ozs. —[An HON. MEMBER: "2 ozs!"]—and some desire expressed by the hon. Member for one of the divisions of Marylebone that it should be limited to 1 oz. free postage, and that everything beyond that 1 oz. should be paid for by the candidate. I do not think that that is a process which would prove successful. The Post Office would have to enter into very minute calculations, in many cases, as to how far the amount expended was in excess of the amount allowed, and I do not think that would be an easy process or one at all welcome to the Post Office. My right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill would like to have an opportunity of consulting the Post Office in this matter and, as he has already undertaken to consult the Post Office in one or two other matters in connection with this Bill, he proposes to put 2 ozs. into the Bill, but not to shut down all thought or reflection as to accepting, perhaps, even 3 or 4 ozs. on the Report stage, after he has had more opportunity of consulting the Post Office. We must pay some regard to the difficulty that the Post Office will have at the time of an election, and it would not be fair, I think, to them unless we consulted them before we accepted such a very large increase as from 1 oz. to 4 ozs. I trust, therefore, that the Committee will allow 2 ozs. to go into the Bill, with an assurance from my right hon. Friend that he will consult the Post Office, and again inform the House.
I only wish to say one word, and it is this: Since the right hon. Gentleman began his speech, hearing the remarks he made, I have had an opportunity of going out to the post office in the Lobby and of weighing three sheets of the Order Paper. I find that the three sheets, combined, which appear to me to contain a considerable amount of printed matter, and quite sufficient to set forth the views of any candidate, however loquacious, can be sent for 1d. At all events, it may be some guide to the Home Secretary, in finally deciding what amount of printed matter we should send post free, to know that this very considerable amount of printed matter can be sent for 1d. Therefore, before the Home Secretary goes any further, I hope he will really take into consideration the amount of printed matter that can be sent out. It will put a very considerable charge on the Post Office, and I hope he will not make further concession without further consideration of the matter.
I think we might have been satisfied with the statement made by the President to the Local Government Board at this stage. Really, all the paper which candidates for Parliament use is not of the texture which the printed matter referred to is. I venture to think that the question between 1 oz. and 2 ozs. is so small at the present time that we might very well accept the suggestion that has been made, and get on to the next point on the Order Paper. If the Home Secretary will accept that suggestion, reporting to the House on the Report stage as to whether 4 ozs. even cannot be allowed, considering the restrictions which have been put—rightly, as I think—on candidates so that they shall not exceed a certain amount, I think it is very reasonable, and I hope it will be agreed to.
The Speaker's Conference expected that what would be sent free by post would be the candidate's first address. I speak in a dual capacity as a candidate who sends an address, and as an elector who reads an address. I do not want to have an address from any candidate covering three pages of the Order Paper. Half an ounce is quite enough for the candidate's first address. I hope the Home Secretary will stick to one ounce. If you allow two ounces you will get all sorts of extraneous matter which was not expected by the Conference. The Conference proposal was a compro- mise; it was not worth much—conferences, are not worth much—but there it is, and I earnestly hope that the Home Secretary will stick to it, and not let us be flooded with all sorts of extraneous matter which no one wants to read, because his mind is made up.
All the candidates are not so happily placed as the right hon. Baronet (Sir A. Williams). His views are known by every person in his Constituency. He has a great advantage over new candidates who have a great deal more to say. I can quite understand that he could put his address into a quarter of an ounce or even less than that, but new candidates have to express their views in detail, and they want to send their photographs and other things. Now that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hayes Fisher) is in a generous frame of mind I think if he will concede four ounces it will only be doing bare justice. It is a retrograde measure to confine it to two ounces.
My recollection of the views of the Conference on this subject is that the question at issue was whether there should be any free postage at all or whether there should be two free postages, and a compromise was arranged for a single free postage. There was no consideration whatever as to weight. In deciding the question of weight, one consideration which should be kept in mind is that the great bulk of the matter is for local delivery. It is not as if all the matter was to be delivered all over the country. As it is for local delivery, it is a comparatively small matter for the Post Office. We have had divergencies of views between two ex-Postmaster-Generals, the right hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) and the right hon. Member for Bristol (Sir C. Hobhouse). I observe there is a representative of the Post Office (Mr. Pike-Pease) on the Front Bench, and perhaps it might be well to have his views. Would his Department be prepared to make a generous concession both to the electorate and the candidate?
May I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should accept 4 ozs. and then consult the Post Office, and if they are against it the Government could alter it on Report. I should like to confirm what has been said by the hon. Member (Mr. Pringle) as to the material being for local delivery. It is well known that at election times the election agents generally agree with the local postmaster to let him have the letters in order to suit his own time. I suggest that the Government should accept the Amendment, and if there is any strong objection to it on behalf of the Post Office they might alter the figure again on the Report stage.
The representative of the Post Office has been appealed to. I hope he will stick to his guns for 1 oz. If you have more the country will be flooded with election leaflets. If there is a temperance candidate he will flood the country with temperance leaflets. Let us keep to 1 oz.
Question, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
Question proposed, "That the words four ounces' be there inserted."
I beg to move, to leave out the word "four," and to insert instead thereof the word "two."
I am willing to accept "two ounces" instead of "four ounces." I expect that I shall be able to put before the House more information on the Report stage.
Amendment agreed to.
Proposed words, as amended, there inserted.
I rise to move the Amendment which stands in my name.
I am under a pledge to move to report Progress. Is the hon. Gentleman going to move?
Yes.
Then I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Question put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
Business of the House
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when we meet to-morrow, and what will be the business?
The House will meet at Twelve o'clock to-morrow, and the Representation of the People Bill will be the first business.
Munitions of War (Re-Committed) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Extend Munitions of War Acts to Work other than Munitions Work.)
Where the Minister of Munitions is satisfied that it is of national importance that the provisions of the Munitions of War Acts, 1915 and 1916, as amended by this Act, should be extended to work of any particular class or classes, or to all or any work in any particular establishment or class of establishment, he may issue a certificate to that effect and may by order direct that those provisions shall be extended accordingly; and thereupon those Acts shall have effect as though references to munitions work included references to the work specified in the Order.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
I beg to move "That Clause 1 be omitted."
I think it is convenient to the Committee that I should move the omission of this most important Clause of the Bill, and make a brief statement on the present situation which has arisen. I hoped, as I said to the House last night, to postpone this Bill to the autumn, when it could have been brought forward as, part of a larger and deliberately negotiated settlement of Labour questions affecting the Ministry of Munitions. I have been negotiating for the last three or four weeks with all concerned with that object in view. I have been endeavouring to form a strong advisory committee chosen by the trade unions, which might possibly become a Standing. Committee for the ventilation of grievances and the adjustment of differences But two things occurred at the end of last week which rendered that course impossible. First of all, the representatives of the engineers, while the extension of the dilution provision for private work is embodied in this Clause and in the Government programme, felt unable to join the Committee, and the other unions passed a resolution strongly urging what is in effect the course which we are now adopting—namely, the dropping of dilution, and the passing of certain Clauses dealing with points of friction, and particularly dealing with the leaving certificates. That was the first thing that happened. The second thing is not less important. The Employers' Advisory Committee, which is an extremely well constituted and representative body, have for a long time been opposed to the removal of the leaving certificates. But this week they came to me and expressed in very strong terms their misgivings that, in view of the pledges which had been given, and still more in view of the interpretation which had been placed on those pledges; it would create a bad state of feeling and cause a loss of confidence in our good faith if Parliament separated for its holidays without having made any provision for the settlement of this difficulty. They drew my attention particularly to some general declarations which I had not previously seen, because they were not made in this House or by members of the Munitions Department. They were very explicit, and it is certainly necessary that they should be redeemed not only in the letter but in the spirit. Those two facts, the attitude of the trade unions and the attitude of the employers convinced me that however desirable it might be on the merits and however attractive to a new Minister it might be to have a longer study and fuller negotiation it would not be right to allow Parliament to disperse at this season of the year for so long a period as eight or nine weeks without having settled this urgent point of the leaving certificate. I frankly State to the House the course which I have followed and the Committee will see, having negotiated up to the last minute, when my negotiations failed, I naturally found myself confronted with great difficulties of time at the end of the Session. I crave the indulgence of the House in this matter, and I was and am confident that the House knowing the situation would take a broad view of it, and in this very serious time would give to the Government and to the Minister affected the assistance they require before we separate. Therefore I decided to lighten the Bill as much as possible, and concentrate on the points which required immediate settlement. That does not prejudge in any way the resumption of discussion on Clauses which are omitted as soon as we meet together, shortly after we meet together, in the autumn. I do not consider that this is a substitution for the proposals which have been made between the different parties. It is merely an instalment, a necessary instalment, of the urgently needed provision. There will be plenty of time to deal with those matters in the autumn, and I hope in their study we shall, in consequence of the passage of this measure, be assisted by the active co-operation and aid of the representatives of the trade unions, so that in the autumn we may be able to bring forward measures to deal more generously with the outstanding munition difficulties with the shop committees, and most complicated subjects of great importance in a direction which will lead to the sweeping away of a great number of small difficulties, and with the settlement of small difficulties which now loom large should they remain long unsettled. That is a matter which cannot be done in a hurry, and I shall hope to put proposals before the House at a later date. So much for the circumstances in which we stand, and which I am stating fully to the House. Let me very briefly explain the purpose and articulation of this recommitted Bill.
In the first place the Bill removes, not dilution—let me make that clear—but the extension of dilution to private works. That is the barrier between us, and a good deal of the assistance which we could receive from the trade unions. I have come to the conclusion that this provision of the Bill—the Dilution Clause, as it is called—is only valuable in so far as it is accompanied by the agreement between the parties concerned. Even in the area of war munitions, even in the controlled establishments, we have not been able to carry out dilution, although it is agreed, further, than we can carry the local agreements of the parties affected. Therefore, this Clause, which I now propose to omit, is valueless without agreement, and unnecessary should agreement be reached. Do not, however, let me create any misapprehension on this point. We regard the extension of dilution as a matter of great importance, and in giving it up we give it up with great regret. We need aid. We need reinforcements of labour to deal with important developments in our munitions preparations for next year. It is with great regret that I find myself unable to secure this relief which we have sought. I am satisfied, however—and I am sure those who have followed this matter out of doors with attention will agree with me —that it is impossible to force this question through. I am sure, had I attempted to do so, it would have led to friction which would have lost us more than we could otherwise gain. That is the first point of the Bill.
The second important point in the recommitted Bill, the sole cause of its urgency, and the only cause which has led me to trespass thus upon the good nature of the House, is the abolition of the leaving certificates. But for that I would not have troubled the House, but would have waited until the autumn. But I shall be asked: "If it is so bad, why do not you repeal them at once, why adopt the procedure outlined in the Amendment?" This is the reason. There is another step which ought to be taken before the leaving certificates can be repealed. The preparations for this are far advanced, but it cannot be settled in the few hours which remain before the end of the Session. The swiftly developing conditions of labour during this War have led to the creation of great and invidious anomalies. We have seen—and there are numerous instances of it all over the country—highly skilled men who have taught the others, working under time rates, at comparatively low wages, and who see side by side with them, in the same shop, newcomers, whose skill, such as it is, has been hastily acquired, and who on repetition work, and on non-repetition work, are earning wages far in excess of those paid to the skilled men. Let the Committee realise the seriousness of this. Supposing the leaving certificate provisions were abolished, while this anomaly remained unredressed, I am advised— and I believe I am rightly advised—that it might lead to a serious migration from the higher ranks of labour into the less highly-skilled, though more highly-paid, forms of labour.
There are many reasons, when these leaving certificates are abolished, why men should move. They will move from a more onerous to a less onerous employment. They will move in search of higher wages. They will move to some extent, perhaps, through love of change. But I am advised that the most serious form in which movement could take place is a movement from the skilled to the semiskilled form of labour. At any rate, I must ask the Committee to give me the means of providing against that. I beg the. Committee to realise that anything in the nature of a dislocation, of our industry at the present time might cause a set-back in the output of munitions, which might seriously hamper our plans for the campaign of 1918. There is great responsibility resting upon the Government in this matter, and I am quite certain the House would not wish. to take any hasty step which might lead to a too great volume of movement suddenly arising, with a consequent diminution of output. Some of these causes of movement must be faced. A man who means to go home will go. But most of them are dealt with by various Clauses in the Bill. There is a Clause requiring a week's notice on either side, which at any rate prevents a sudden dislocation. There is a Clause which prevents men moving from war munition work to private work. Obviously, that is a perfectly reasonable provision. Other cases can be dealt with under the Defence of the Realm Act. What is called poaching, or potential poaching, by employers of any fluid labour can be prevented by Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act, and I shall hold myself free to utilise that. But this particular difficulty—the difficulty of the anomaly between certain classes of skilled and certain classes of semi-skilled labour—is one which requires time to settle. It has a real value in itself, and it is recognised as such by the trade unions, and it would be a great pity to spoil it by a hurried attempt to patch up an arrangement in the last few days of the Session. It is simply because I wish to carry through this arrangement in respect to improving the rates of certain time-rate workers that I am forced to adopt this rather cumbrous procedure, and to delay the full execution of the pledge to abolish the leaving certificates. That is the sole reason. I do not wish to give a definite date, but the Committee will see that the efforts we are making to get this Bill arise from the fact that we wish to abolish leaving certificates a considerable time before Parliament meets again. In a month or six weeks—I hope in a shorter time these negotiations on the matter of time rates will be completed; then I shall at once use the power I now ask of Parliament—in phraseology which I hope will not be taken as arrogant, but which is intended to follow entirely the regular form of Parliamentary draftsmen-ship—in a month or six weeks I hope to use the power I ask to be entrusted with for the sole purpose of not delaying, until we meet again, the execution of this promise.
The third point in the Bill is one which is universally agreed to, the power to extend the awards given to majorities of workers in any trade to the minority. That is a very necessary and a, much-demanded provision. There are one or two other Clauses to which there is no objection on either side. There is a Clause to prevent the cutting of piece rates, and another Clause to prevent the penalisation of workmen for belonging to trades unions or for taking part in a trade dispute. I have explained to the Committee and I have trespassed upon their time, firstly, to show why it is that I am asking you to pass this Bill at this late moment of the Session; and, secondly, how the Bill fits together and what is the reason for the relation of these Clauses to each other. I said last night that I thought we might be open to criticism on the ground that we were making a relaxation of our powers at a time when still more strenuous and greater efforts are required to win the War. I feel that we are justified in doing this on one ground alone. We cannot win this War unless we are supported by the great masses of the labouring classes of this country. We cannot possibly win unless they sustain us and go with us, and unless they do so with a loyal and spontaneous determination we must expect disastrous results. We believe that a great and overwhelming majority in all parts of the country are determined to stand by the cause and carry the War to a victorious conclusion. Basing myself on that I feel that this particular measure, if it removes any suspicion of want of good faith or want of sympathy will, even though it may be alleged that in some respects it is prejudicial to output, give us back in other directions a much richer harvest than we should have reaped from adopting a more narrow interpretation of this question.
I wish to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the first step he has taken in his new office. As the Committee is aware, the Bill which is now under consideration is one which has possibly been the main cause of the most formidable industrial dispute which has occurred in the course of the War. This Bill was introduced, in the first instance, for the purpose of extending the dilution provision to private work, and an attempt was made on behalf of the Government to hustle it through without adequate consideration, I am glad to say that I think not only the Committee but the public are to be congratulated upon the fact that the Bill in its original form never reached the Statute Book. It is well, therefore, that an opportunity was offered for reconsideration, and the fruit of that reconsideration is seen in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman to-night and in the proposals which he has explained. When this Bill was before the House on its Second Heading an Amendment was proposed to the effect that the House should decline to give the Second Reading until the restrictions on freedom of employment were removed. It found few supporters in a House of over 100 because there were ten went into the Lobby in favour of it, while 100 voted against it. To-night we have met to pass a Bill in the form suggested by that Amendment. The only point in the New Clauses which are now down in the name of the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions (Mr. Kellaway) upon which it seems to me any doubt need arise is that relating to the famous Section 7 of the original Munitions Act, a Section with regard to which it was prophesied by a few Members in this House that you were likely to produce more unrest and irritation than any good that could possibly be brought about in respect of increased output. I think that prophesy has been completely fulfilled as the reports of the Industrial Commission show.
The Clause, as it at present stands, provides, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, that the leaving certificate will come to an end by Order in Council. It would have been better had they been definitely repealed by Act of Parliament, but my right hon. Friend has given a perfectly reasonable explanation for the delay. He has pointed out the importance of readjusting the wages of the skilled men who are working on time rates, so that they may be induced to remain at their present occupation rather than go into the more highly paid work which is really unskilled, if they were in a position of freedom. As the right hon. Gentleman intends to put an end to this anomaly, and he only waits until this anomaly ceases in order to give freedom of employment, I think that the House will readily grant him the time for which he now asks. It is also gratifying to hear that he has in view other proposals which will be calculated to remove some of the sources of irritation and discontent which at present prevail. In all these circumstances, I. do not think it is advisable to have a prolonged Debate upon the actual proposals which the Government put forward. They are really relaxations of our previous restrictive legislation. They are a step towards freedom, and as a step towards freedom we should all welcome them. The right hon. Gentleman himself has spoken of a possibility of reduced output as a result of these concessions. I think that he will find himself mistaken. I think that he will obtain better results from the free patriotic action of the workmen of this country under the influence of the generous concessions which he has now made than from any restrictive code. I believe that the restrictive code has been prejudicial to output in the past. It has produced irritation, it has weakened enthusiasm, and for all these reasons it has been a misfortune to the country. The right hon. Gentleman, in taking this action to-night, has thrown himself, as it were, upon the generosity of the workmen, and one who appeals to the generosity of the British working man will always have his reward.
I should like to say, having regard to the proposal to-night, that I welcome the statement which the right hon. Gentleman has made that it is his intention definitely and absolutely to abolish the leaving certificate. I, myself, and those for whom I speak would have been glad if it could have been done without any form of words which might have left it in some doubt whether it might or would be unequivocally removed, but as the right hon. Gentleman explained the reasons for the course he is taking, and his absolute intention, when its purpose is fulfilled, to abolish the leaving certificate and to restore ordinary freedom to the worker, so far as it can be restored during this period, I, for my part. welcome that declaration whole-heartedly on behalf of the unions affected.
There is no doubt that my hon. Friend (Mr. Pringle) has stated part of the truth on the question of the leaving certificate and the restrictions which have been imposed, but I do not think he stated the whole of it. I believe that the truth lies between the two, that for a time and under certain circumstances it was necessary to introduce some restrictions, but that when those restrictions became irritating they ought to have been removed at once, and that we ought not to have waited until we saw the results we have seen. There was a disposition in the early part of the War to carry on the old methods of unrestricted competition, poaching, and of employers trying to get more men for the purposes of profit, to such an extent that it was a danger to the country. Therefore, I am very glad that at last we have now reached the position when freedom, which is always the best policy to pursue, is to be restored to the workers. I only wish that it could have been done completely to-night.
11.0 P.M.
The right hon. Gentleman is quite right in saying that one of the sources of irritation during recent months has been the fact that you have had men who have taught others, who have taught women, we have taught boys, but who themselves, being highly skilled men, have had to continue to work for less money than has been received by those whom they have taught. I cannot imagine anybody being satisfied with such a position as that. It is only human nature of the simplest character that the result should be to cause irritation which it is difficult to explain away. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman proposes, somehow or other—I have not yet quite gathered his plan for doing it— to redress that grievance, and that the skilled men should receive the reward of their skill, while the others are not to be penalised in any way whatever. I am also glad that it is now recognised that good will and a proper understanding between Labour and the Munitions Department is the greatest possible necessity, and that that good will means infinitely more in regard to output than any kind of restriction or any attempt at coercion. If that lesson has been learned during the last few months, and if the patriotism of the worker is appealed to, I am quite sure that the response will be in accordance with the highest wishes the right hon. Gentleman could entertain. I do not know whether there may not come by agreement with the miners, if good will prevails, some greater amount of dilution than exists at present, but the greatest thing we have got to do is to remove suspicion, as the Prime Minister of New South Wales said, the greatest canker that eats into the heart of any worker. Remove that suspicion and get good will, and I am quite sure we shall take a long step towards an improvement in the relations between the Government and the workers of this country. Therefore, I welcome the statement which the right hon. Gentleman has made. He has referred to the question of the shop committees. I believe rightly used, and rightly used by the men as well, shop committees may be a useful step in advance. It is absolutely necessary that both locally and centrally we should have the utmost co-operation between workers and the Government in regard to this matter. I feel, therefore, that there may be, if they are properly used, a useful future for the shop committees, and I hope we may see them established upon right lines and used in their proper place. We accept this Bill as an instalment. It does not carry out all that is required. If, in the hurry of the Recess, it is necessary to get this Clause through with assent to that method on the understanding that afterwards there is a real attempt made— and I believe that the right hon. Gentleman will make it—to come to a complete understanding with regard to all the outstanding things which have been left over in consequence of this Bill being hurried through now, and if that is the position, and we understand it to be the position, I for one will not stand in the way of the right hon. Gentleman getting his Bill at the earliest possible moment.
The Bill has certainly been brought forward in something of a hurry, and Members have not had a great deal of time to examine its provisions, but I am thoroughly convinced that it is a step in the right direction, and we are not going to look at its defects through a microscope. I believe it will do good, and will help to remove a good deal of friction and unrest. I am sure much of that is centred round the question of leaving certificates, and I hope the Minister of Munitions will bring that matter forward and get it put upon a proper basis as soon as possible. The Bill really touches on the fringe of a much bigger question, and I hope the Minister of Munitions is going to examine the whole question of the causes of this disaffection and unrest among munition workers. If he will go into that he will find there have been a great many griev- ances, and if he will set himself to remove those grievances I am quite sure he will find himself well rewarded in securing cooperation and good will.
There is still a great deal of doubt, among them as to what is going to happen in regard to after-war conditions, and the restoration of the rules. That is probably too big a question to be tackled now in the short time we have for the consideration of this Bill, but I think we ought to have a most definite undertaking-from the Minister of Munitions that after the Recess that question, among others, will be faced honestly by him and by this House, and that we may have the opportunity of making it quite clear to the workpeople that the Government is going to keep faith with them. If that happens it will do a great deal in the right direction. I hope, therefore, that at the very earliest moment it will be possible definitely to abolish the leaving certificate, and with regard to that I would like also to urge that any restrictions that remain so far as the men are concerned— for instance, that a man who leaves munition work should still work on munitions —that, however necessary that may be in the case of men, it ought not to apply to the women workers. Women are not skilled workers.
We have agreed to that.
If that is correct, I think that also will be a step in the right direction.
I am perfectly certain that the speech of the Minister of Munitions to-night will go a very long way to remove a suspicion that rests not only in one centre but in nearly all the industrial centres of this country in connection with their distrust concerning regulations, their disbelief in connection with rules, and their feeling of unfairness that has been associated with them in reference to the great sacrifices they have made. The trade unionists of this country, the skilled ones particularly, have sacrificed their years of apprenticeship, they have given up many years of training in order that other people might be doing some of the work that they have previously been doing, and they have been receiving in many cases; only one-quarter of the money that the persons have been receiving whom they have trained to do the work. While that has been so, and while it was known to some of us twelve months ago and pointed out to those who could have remedied it and did it as being a fruitful source of trouble, and I rejoice to-night that we have a Minister of Munitions who is about to endeavour to get by goodwill that which he never could have got by regulation. There have been far too many regulations, far too many overlapping instructions, and far too many instructions which have cut at the very root of the goodwill of the men in the past, and which I hope will not be issued again from the Ministry of Munitions. I am perfectly certain that my right hon. Friend has in front of him a very difficult task, but tonight he has started on the only successful way of getting that task through, and that is by getting the goodwill of the workers of the country. He will get the task through, I believe, from to-night. The mere fact that we are doing this in a hurry when most people want to be getting away, and after the normal hours of the House, will go towards showing the workers that we are in earnest in that which we are doing, and the appeal that the right hon. Gentleman has made on entering upon his new work shows that he intends to do the right thing and to do it in the right way. I congratulate him upon the start he has made, and I appeal to him to believe that at the present time he has not got disaffected workmen to deal with. He has a great body of loyal workers who have been suffering in the past, who while they have been suffering have been doing hard and loyal work, and who want now to be doing better work. He will get the better work by the course he has followed to-night, and all I want to do is to assure him that from my own personal experience and from the knowledge of my own trade and of the workers connected with my own trade he can get all he wants if he will take the men into his confidence before he gives any orders instructing them what he wishes to have done, and if he will not order them to do it but ask them if they will do it.
I would like to endorse, to a very large extent, what the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has said. But there was one remark he made with which I rather disagreed. He said that the right hon. Gentleman had got a difficult task. He has not; his task is an extremely easy one, if he only goes the right way about it. The hon. Gentleman suggested the way to make that task easy. That was to have confidence in the workers of the country. If he will only take them more into his confidence than his predecessors have done, I feel quite confident that his task will be an easy one. I should like to make one or two personal remarks. Last night I suggested to the right hon. Gentleman that the best thing he could do would be to withdraw the Bill. I made the remark, in the first instance, before I knew he had withdrawn, or proposed to drop, the Dilution Clause. I made it afterwards, but I did not oppose the re-committal of the Bill, and the reason I suggested that he might withdraw the Bill was in order that he could introduce another Bill, so that the Members of the House, and the workmen of the country as well, would understand it exactly, without comparing the new Clause and the old Bill, and might try to realise how it would work out. I thought it would simplify the situation, and I still believe it would have done so. But, after the statement the right hon. Gentleman has made to-night, I agree that at this time of the Session it is wise to adopt the suggestion which he has made. I should like to say a word on the Clause we are dealing with now. I am speaking now as an artizan. It is generally assumed by the Government that dilution means an increased output. I am very doubtful of an increased output from dilution. I think the right hon. Gentleman ought seriously to consider whether or not it is really in the best interests of the country that labour should be diluted. I quite agree that there are some operations in connection with the production of munitions of war where dilution may be introduced with some success, but the right hon. Gentleman needs to be extremely careful in connection with that particular point.
In connection with the abolition of leaving certificates,, in the Clause put down by the hon. Member for Bedford, it says it can be done by Order. I would suggest that the Order dealing with the question of leaving certificates ought to apply to the whole of the country at the same time. It should not be made to apply to certain munition areas.
No; it will apply to the whole country.
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has said that. I should like to emphasise the point that has been made in regard to the necessity of paying men who are teaching people to do their own trade. It could have been done long ago, if those responsible for the management of the controlled establishments had recognised that the schoolmaster is always worth his pay, and then a lot of the irritation and discontent would never have arisen at all. I hope they will recognise that point, and see to it that those who are teaching others receive an equal—if not a higher—rate of wage as they would receive if they were actually engaged in producing the shells, etc., made by the men and women whom they have taught. I suggest that if that had been adopted twelve months or two years ago, we should not have had the discontent in the workshops which we have at the present time. It is suggested that there might perhaps be a dislocation by men leaving one establishment and going to another. I do not think there is any necessity for me to point out to the right hon. Gentleman how easy it is to avoid that. I think he will recognise that without my suggesting it. I am very pleased to learn from the suggested new Clause that certain matters which have been the cause of a great deal of discontent among the working classes will not arise in future. I hope that some arrangement will be made to induce the larger societies to recognise that the smaller societies and the smaller sections of workmen have rights as well as the members of the larger societies. If the right hon. Gentleman can reconcile differences that exist between the members of one society and another in connection with the question of what ought to be done, he will have done a great deal of service to the country. I do not think there is any section of workmen in controlled or uncontrolled establishments who have not a desire to be absolutely loyal to the country and to help the nation in its hour of need to the utmost of their power. You must not issue regulations couched in ambiguous language. Issue your regulations if possible in language which an ordinary individual can understand, and without causing overlapping. It is because the men have not been able to understand what the Government means that discontent has arisen. I think it would be wise, as I have said before, to have a small committee composed of practical men in this House who understand the views, the aspirations, and the ambitions of the workmen to advise the Government in these matters.
I wish to join in the congratulations which the right hon. Gentleman has received, not only for the specific measure he has recommended, but still more for the spirit and the tone that he has shown. It was a refreshing thing for us to hear something of that sort from that bench. The thing that has struck me is not that there might be unrest, but that there was not a great deal more unrest. The House does not believe the intolerable injustice under which large sections of our population has been for some time. Taking leaving certificates. I will not discuss whether that measure was justified at its inception; it may have been or it may not; but we are all agreed that at a certain stage it had ceased to do any good. I think the right hon. Gentleman is quite right in taking time within which to remedy these grievances. A word of caution: He has named a date of four or six weeks. Let that date be adhered to because it would be taken as an absolute pledge and must not be varied even by a single day or hour. I think that we sometimes speak of all those questions too much on the lines of wages and money and too little on the human side. What the skilled man has been suffering from is not merely the fact that he earns less than a semi-skilled worker. I will quote one case which was given in evidence, of a skilled fitter who had spent his life at his trade. His wife went to munition work at the beginning of the War. At the end of the second week on Saturday night she brought back £4, threw it on the table and said: "There is my little lot; you can stay at home and mind the baby." That shows the point that I want to bring out, that it is not only the injury to the man's pocket, but the injury to his self-respect. He sees boys and girls whom he himself has taught earning more than he does, and you have to give him a chance, you have to pay him more, for his skill is the basis on which the whole of the production of the factory rests. But it cannot be done all at once. I welcome the Bill. I have never seen the House so unanimous, and I hope that we shall pass the Bill with a very short discussion.
Anyone who reads the Amendments that have been put down will agree that the right hon. Gentleman has fairly carried out the pledge which he gave to the House last night—that the Bill should be made a Bill which was entirely concerned with removing restrictions and which imposed no further obligations upon anyone in this country. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman, and trust that this House will allow him to complete this Bill -and that it will be an evidence of the fact that he and those in authority have realised that they are going by this Act to remove restrictions and ask to impose further and additional ones upon the workmen of this country.
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 2.—(Amendment of Schedule II. of 5 and 6 Geo. 5. c. 54.)
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 3.—(Power to Make Certain Awards as to Wages Binding on Trades.)
(1) Where an award as to a change in the rate of wages payable to persons engaged on or in connection with munitions work, or as to hours of work or other vise as to terms or conditions of, or affecting employment of, persons so engaged, has been made either under Part I. of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, or in pursuance of an agreement between representatives of employers and workmen, and the Minister of Munitions is satisfied that the award affects the majority of the employers and the persons engaged on or in connection with munitions work in any trade or branch of a trade either generally or in a particular district, the Minister of Munitions may by order direct that the award shall be binding on all or any other employers and persons so engaged, either without modifications or subject in any particular cases to such modifications contained in the direction as the Minister may consider necessary to adapt the award to the circumstances of such cases, and in particular in order that no such other employer shall be compelled to pay greater or enabled to pay less wages than are payable in the like circumstances by an employer who was originally bound by the award.
(2) Where any such directions are given the award shall be binding not only on the employers and persons so engaged who are affected by the award as originally made, but also, subject to such modifications (if any) as aforesaid, on the other employers and persons so engaged to whom the directions relate, and any contravention thereof or non-compliance therewith shall be punishable in like manner as if the award and the order in which such directions are contained were an award made in settlement of a difference under Part I. of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, and had been made in respect of a dispute affecting such employers and persons so engaged.
Amendments made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the words "affects the majority of employers and," and insert instead thereof the words "is binding upon employers employing the majority of."
Leave out the words "compelled to pay quarter of the."
Leave out the words "an employer who was," and insert instead thereof the words "employers who were."—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to insert the words, "Provided that nothing in any such order or award shall operate to make it unlawful for any employer to pay to any person a higher rate of wages than is expressed in such award."
The effect of this Amendment is to make quite clear that an employer may pay a higher rate of wages than that expressed in the award.
I hope my right hon. Friend will not press this Amendment. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent an employer from paying a higher rate of wages than that laid down in the award.
On that assurance I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 4.—(Reporting of Differences.)
The Minister of Labour may make regulations with respect to the reporting of differences under Section one of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, and with a view to preventing undue delay in negotiations for settling such differences may by those regulations prescribe the time within which any such difference is to be reported to him.
There is a proposal of the Government put down on the Order Paper in the form of a clause which ought to be an Amendment to Clause 4.
Amendment made: At the end of the Clause, add the words,
"A difference may be reported under Sub-section (1) of Section one of The Munitions of War Act, 1915, by or on behalf of any Government Department; and accordingly in that sub-section after the words ' by or on behalf of either party to the difference' there shall be inserted the words 'or by or on behalf of any Government Department.'"—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 5.—(Amendments of Section 7 of the Principal Act.)
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 6.—(Application of Section 17 of Principal Act.)
Section seventeen of the principal Act shall apply to any order or regulation made under this Act.
Amendment made: Leave out the words "the principal Act," and insert, instead thereof, the words, "Munitions of War Act, 1915, and Section twenty-five of the Munitions of War (Amendment) Act, 1916."—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 7.—(Restriction on Change of Piece Rates in Controlled Establishments.)
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 8.—(Amendment of Section 22 of the Act of 1916.)
Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.
CLAUSE 9.—(Short Title.)
This Act may be cited as the Munitions of War Act, 1917; and the Munitions of War Acts, 1915 and 1916 and this Act may be cited together as the Munitions of War Acts, 1915 to 1917.
Amendments made: After the word "and," ["and the Munitions of War Acts "], insert the words" shall be construed as one with."
After the word "Act" ["and this Act may be cited"], insert the words "and those Acts".—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
A new Clause ( Restrictions on Alterations of Piece Prices, etc., in Controlled Establishments ) stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. KELLAWAY.
It is only with the great indulgence of the Committee that I can put this Clause right, because I have had three forms of the Clause. There are some manuscript Amendments, given to me a short time ago, and one handed in just now. Do I understand that the hon. Member moves this Clause with all the additions?
Yes.
Then I will put the Clauses to the Committee in the revised form.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Restrictions on Alterations of Piece Prices, etc., in Controlled Establishments.)
(1) The undertaking which the owner of a controlled establishment is by virtue of Sub-section (4) of Section four of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, deemed to have entered into shall include an undertaking that piece prices, time allowances, or bonuses on output, or the rates or prices payable under any other system of payments by results, once fixed in the establishment may not be altered except in accordance with any procedure which has been adopted by agreement between the owner of the establishment and the workmen or their representatives, and is in force in the establishment at the passing of this Act, or by the direction of the Minister of Munitions, which direction shall not be given except in accordance with an agreement between the owner of the establishment and the trade unions representing the workmen affected by the alteration, or failing agreement after consultation with the parties concerned:
Provided that this provision shall not apply where the alteration is made in accordance with the directions as to the rates of wages of female workers given by the Minister of Munitions under Section six of the Munitions of War (Amendment) Act, 1916, nor shall this provision apply to shipbuilding yards, or ship repairing yards, but as respects such yards the Minister of Munitions or the Admiralty may make rules regulating the alteration of systems of payments by results therein.
(2) Where an alteration of a system of payment by results is made in accordance with the provisions of this Section, paragraph seven of the Second Schedule to the Munitions of War Act, 1915, shall not apply.—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Brought up, and read the first and second time, and added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Restriction on Employment of Workmen who have been Engaged on Certain Munition Work.)
The Minister of Munitions, on being satisfied that the provisions of Section (7) of The Munitions of War Act, 1915, as amended by any subsequent enactment can consistently with the national interests be repealed, may by order repeal those provisions, and thereupon the following provisions shall have effect in lieu thereof:
(1) It shall not be lawful for a person without the consent of the Minister of Munitions to give employment to a workman who has, since the passing of the Act, been employed—
( a ) on or in connection with munitions work of a class specified in paragraph ( a ) of Sub-section (1) of Section 9 of The Munitions of War (Amendment) Act, 1916; or
( b ) on or in connection with munitions work of any other class which may be specified in an Order of the Minister of Munitions
where the work on which he is to be employed is not work on or in connection with munitions work.
The consent of the Minister of Munitions for the purposes of this provision may be given either as respects an individual case or generally as respects work or workmen of any particular class or description;
(2) If any person contravenes this provision he shall be guilty of an offence, triable by a munitions tribunal of the second class, under The Munitions of War Act, 1915, unless he proves that he did not know that, and had taken all reasonable steps to ascertain whether the workman had been so employed [but proceedings for such an offence shall not be instituted except by the Minister of Munitions or the Admiralty, or by a person acting on his or their behalf];
(3) A person guilty of such an offence shall be liable to a fine not exceeding five pounds for each day or part of a day during which the contravention continues;
(4) The purpose of ascertaining whether the provisions of this Section have been contravened in any establishment shall be included amongst the purposes for which the powers of entry, examination, and inquiry conferred by Section 17 of The Munitions of War (Amendment) Act, 1916, are exercisable.—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
I had intended to move certain Amendments for the purpose of making it quite clear that the Ministry was going to delete Section 7 of the Munitions Act, but in view of the explanations given by the Minister, and seeing that he intends to bring into line the wages of skilled and semi-skilled men, and to carry out the question of policy, I do not propose to move.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause read a second time.
The hon. Member for Attercliffe has, I believe, an Amendment on this Clause?
I desired to move the addition of another Sub-section (5) to the Clause, as to the non-application of the provisions and restrictions to any female worker.
I am advised that the Clause as drafted makes unnecessary the words proposed by the hon. Member. If after further examination we find that some other words are necessary, we agree that they shall be put in.
Clause ordered to be added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Penalty on Dismissal of Workman on Ground of Membership of Trade Union.)
No workman employed on or in connection with munition work shall be discharged on the ground that he has joined or is a member of a trade union, or that he has taken part in any trade dispute, and if any employer discharges a workman on any such ground he shall be guilty of an offence triable by a munitions tribunal of the second class under the Munitions of War Act, 1915, and shall be liable to a fine not exceeding ten pounds, and the tribunal may order that the whole or any part of the fine imposed shall be paid as compensation to the workman:
Provided that nothing in this Section shall prejudice any right of action for wrongful dismissal that the workman may have against his employer.—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Brought up, and read the first and second time, and added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Power to Give Directions as to Remuneration of Certain Classes of Work.)
(1) If at any time during the continuance of the present War the Minister of Munitions considers it necessary, in order to maintain the output of munitions, that directions should be given with respect to the remuneration to be paid for work (being munitions work or work in connection therewith or work in any controlled establishment) which at the time when the directions are given is paid at time rates, he may, subject always and without prejudice to any agreement made between employers and workmen with the consent of the Minister with respect to the remuneration for such work, by order give such directions as he may consider necessary for the purpose or of the maintenance or increase of output.
(2) Any contravention of, or non-compliance with, any such directions shall be punishable in like manner as if the order in which the directions are contained was an award made in settlement of a difference under Part I. of the Munitions of War Act, 1915; but where a difference has arisen respecting matters on which the Minister of Munitions has given directions under this Section, the difference shall be referred to a special arbitration tribunal constituted under Section 8 of the Munitions of War (Amendment) Act, 1916.
(3) Any directions given under this Section may be varied from time to time, but shall not continue in force after the termination of the present War.—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Brought up, and read the first and second time, and added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Termination of Contracts.)
(1) If the provisions of Section 7 of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, as amended by any subsequent enactment are repealed by an Order under this Act a contract of service between an employer and a workman employed on or in connection with munitions work shall, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, not be determinable by either party except by a week's notice or on payment of a sum equal to an average week's wages under the contract:
Provided that this Section shall not apply—
( a ) where under the contract a longer notice than one week is required;
( b ) in the case of workmen engaged in ship-repairing, or of workmen of any class which is exempted by order of the Minister of Munitions on the ground that the circumstances of their employment were such that the provisions of this Section ought not to apply to them, or of workmen whose employment is of a discontinuous or temporary nature;
( c ) in the case of the termination of a contract on the ground of such misconduct on the part of either party or his agent as would justify the immediate termination of the contract by the other party.
(2) Any sum payable in lieu of notice under this Section by an employer or workman shall be recoverable before a munitions tribunal of the second class, and payment of a sum adjudged to be paid by such tribunal in such proceedings shall be enforceable in like manner as payment of a fine imposed by the tribunal.
Nothing in this Section shall be construed as affecting the operation of any of the other provisions of the Munitions of War Acts, 1915 to 1917.—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Brought up, and read the first and second time, and added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of First Schedule of Principal Act.)
At the end of the First Schedule to the Munitions of War Act, 1915, the following paragraph shall be inserted:—
(4) The tribunal shall make its award without delay, and where practicable within fourteen days from the date of reference.—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Brought up, and read the first and second time, and added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Section 6 of the Act of 1916.)
If the provisions of Section seven of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, as amended by any subsequent enactment, are repealed by an order under this Act, Section six of the Munitions of War (Amendment) Act, 1916, shall apply to female workers employed on or in connection with munitions work in establishments of all classes, and accordingly in that Section the words "of a class to which the provisions of Section seven of the principal Act, as amended by this Act, are for the time being applied by an Order made thereunder "shall be repealed.—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Brought up, and read a first and second time, and added to the Bill.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Proceedings under Section 4, Subsection (5) of the Munitions of War Act, 1915.)
Proceedings against a person for contravening or failing to comply with regulations made by the Minister of Munitions under Sub-section (5) of Section four of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, shall not be instituted except by the Minister of Munitions or the Admiralty, or by a person acting on his or their behalf. — [ Mr. Kellaway. ]
Brought up, and read the first and second time, and added to the Bill.
A number of new Clauses stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. ANDERSON.
I understand the matter here referred to is one of the matters to come up after the Recess.
That applies to a series of new Clauses on the Paper.
Perhaps I ought to move formally, especially in regard to the question of after-the-war restoration, so as to get from the Minister of Munitions a very definite assurance that this question will be raised, and that the whole House will have an opportunity of dealing with it. If that is done, I will withdraw these.
On which one do you raise that point?
On the Clause "Munitions of War Act, 1915, Amendment of Section 4, Sub-section (3)."
NEW CLAUSE.—(Munitions of War Act, 1915, Amendment of s. 4, s-s. (3).)
Section 4, Sub-section (3), of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, is hereby amended by the addition of the words at the end thereof, "Provided that this Sub-section shall be null and void on and after the termination of the War."
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
Of course, since this Bill was introduced the Reconstruction Ministry has been established, and some aspects of this Clause transcend the limitations which it would be proper for the Ministry of Munitions to decide by itself, but we recognise that the two spheres have a very large area in which they overlap, and I hope that with the passage of this Bill it will be possible for me and my colleagues at the Ministry of Munitions to begin close and intimate discussion of these and cognate points, with a view to our dealing more fully with these questions. I think it would be very undesirable to try to settle them in haste, but there are several Clauses which I left out last night which I might not have done if I had known the delightful mood in which I should find the House, and these will be brought forward, together with any extensions which, after further investigation of the subject, may appear necessary.
This is a very important matter, because the uncertainty is causing a good deal of labour unrest. The Employers' Parliamentary Council have issued to-day a manifesto in which they say that restoration is impossible. The workpeople ask that faith shall be kept with them, and the sooner this matter is put upon a proper basis the better. I ask leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
NEW CLAUSE.—(Extension to Royal Dockyards.)
The provisions of the Munitions of War Acts, 1915 to 1917, shall extend to the Royal dockyards and all Government establishments where munitions of war are manufactured. — [ Mr. Hohler. ]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
I welcome the Amendments which the right hon. Gentleman has proposed; they have all along been under the burden of these Acts, but they have never received the benefits thereunder. I therefore ask that these Acts shall be extended to the Royal dockyards and other Government establishments. This point has been pressed upon me by the men in the dockyards, who are all strong trade unionists, and I do not think there is any satisfactory answer to the Clause I have proposed. Those Acts and this Bill only endure for the duration of the War and twelve months after. The Government and the Admiralty know that the system of petitions is unsatisfactory, because the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty has no time to hear them, and the men ask that they should have the benefit of these Acts, and that every award that is made in favour of their fellow trade unionists who are working outside the dockyards should equally extend to them. The Committee on Production, the body which determines between employers and employed what shall be the rate of wages, is appointed by the Treasury, and therefore were can be no reason in fairness why these Acts should not be extended to the workers in the Royal dockyards. Further than that, the Admiralty and the other branches under the Government have insisted that the workers in the Royal dockyards cannot appear before the Committee of Production unless with the consent of the Department concerned. Why should these men not be allowed on their own motion, without any interference, to appeal to the Committee on Production, to determine what is right and fair between them and their employers? The Government ought to set a good example in this matter.
It is an unquestionable fact that a strike was threatened at Chatham, and had it not been for the loyalty of trade unionists, men who were largely established under Government in the yard, there would have been a strike. It would have been a matter of grave significance in this great circumstance. What was the reason of it? Outside workers, fitters, shipwrights, and other mechanics obtained an award from the Committee on Production of an advance of 5s. The terms of the award were issued early in March, but they were not to take effect till 1st April. Meanwhile no notification of what the Admiralty proposed with regard to the men in the Royal Dockyards was made. The result was that the matter was hung up till about 28th March, and the men, fearing that they were not going to get the benefit that their fellow-workers in like trades outside were getting, threatened to strike.
indicated dissent.
The right hon. Gentleman may shake his head, but I have better information on this subject than he has, because I have met representatives from the trade unionists. The wiser of the trade unionists said "Let us give them to the last moment to see what the Admiralty will do." The strike was held up, and, when the announcement that the advance would be given was made, the matter was at an end. A large majority of these men are not established men. Why are they not entitled to every award given to men outside, and why are they not entitled to go to this Committee on Production if they have a grievance? It is pure prejudice. The whole of the conditions are suspended, and the only method they have of presenting their grievances is through this Committee on Production, but they cannot go to it unless they get the consent of the Admiralty. That is quite wrong. If the men outside can go without the consent of anybody, why not the men in the yards? I hope that I shall receive support for this Amendment from every Member of the House, and that the provisions of this Bill will be extended to His Majesty's dockyards in order that the men may get the benefits for which they earnestly ask.
I desire to support the Amendment. I happen to belong to a very large body of men engaged in the dockyard industry, and I contend that they are suffering under a serious grievance owing to the fact that the Government establishments have taken advantage of all the latitude of the Munitions Act, and have taken care that the men employed shall secure none of the benefits. Let me examine the position with regard to the men employed by controlled firms. In those cases the men are not allowed to strike, but whenever a difference arises there is a method in operation by which the men are permitted to take their difference to the Committee on Production with very little delay. The question is gone into before the Committee by the men on the one side and the employer on the other, and within a short time it is settled. We have had cases settled within a week or two. I admit that others have been dragged out. Possibly that accounts for the unrest there has been in the country. There have been scores, if not hundreds of cases in which my own union has been concerned that have been settled in very quick time. The result has been that in the union with which I am connected we have had very little difficulty of which to complain as compared with other unions. The men have had a direct remedy; they have had an opportunity of stating their case and getting their grievance redressed.
12.0 M.
With regard to men in the dockyards and employed by the War Office there are grievances which have been irritating their minds practically ever since the War began. Let me give a case by way of illustration. There are a number of men employed in the ropery establishment at Devonport Dockyard. They have been working on piecework for practically bare time. I understand that in the munitions establishments where the people are employed on piecework they are allowed to earn 25 per cent. above the time rate. Recently we have had a concession from the Secretary to the Admiralty with regard to the people employed in the ropery works at Devonport, allowing them to earn 10 per cent. more than the time wage. In that case there is a disadvantage of 15 per cent. If that case had been allowed to go before Sir George Ask with Committee on Production there would not have been a moment's question as to what these people should be allowed to earn. They would have been put on exactly the same terms as the people employed in the ordinary controlled establishment. Here is another illustration of the ill-effects of this system on the workmen, which constitutes a real grievance. There is in the dockyards a large number of men termed skilled labourers. Many of these men have been working sufficiently long at a particular kind of labour to become equal to ordinary skilled mechanics, but the highest rate of wages received until recently by these men was 31s. It has been raised, according to an answer to a question to-day, by 5s. I suggest that if the dockyards had not been under the Munitions Act there is not one of those men—there are thousands of them in the country—who would not have been able to find employment outside the dockyards at a wage at least 10s. higher than they were receiving in the dockyards. I am not speaking without my book. I have had quite a number of cases of men in my own union who have actually had employment offered to them at wages 10s. higher than they were receiving, but owing to the Munitions Act being applied to the dockyards it was not possible for them to obtain leaving certificates. While I have done my best to help the country in its difficulty it has certainly placed me in a very difficult position with regard to these men. They are really labouring under a very serious grievance indeed, and I cannot understand why they are denied the rights which are enjoyed by workmen and women employed in the ordinary controlled establishments. Simply because they are employed by the State, they take all the disadvantages, and they cannot conceivably be allowed any of the advantages. The right hon. Gentleman no doubt will tell us of the petition system which has been in operation prior to the War," and will tell us he has no desire to abolish it. But the War has gone on for three years. I do not know when it is going to end, and I am quite sure he cannot tell me. It may go on for three more, and is it to be that whatever are the disadvantages coupled with the Munitions Act these workpeople are to suffer, but when it comes to a chance of gaining some improvement in their circumstances and in their wages they must stand idly by and be passed over almost with contempt? These people are suffering under a very real grievance indeed, and there will be very real discontent if this thing is not put right now. There is an opportunity here of getting over the considerable amount of unrest that exists in the dockyards and Government establishments. The very loyalty of these men is being traded on in this business. They look upon themselves as being the last men who should ever dream of going on strike. They look almost with horror and detestation on the idea of any cessation of work and every temptation is put in their way to take that kind of stand. It is not fair or reasonable to these people, and the Admiralty and the War Office ought to put them on terms of equality with the two millions of people who are employed in the controlled establishments. Neither Department would lose anything, and it would conduce very largely to making things work a good deal sweeter. The men and women employed there would feel a good deal easier in their minds. Not only the people in my union, but the other unions which have been consulted with regard to the Amendments to this Bill are in complete agreement with me in this matter. I speak as much on their behalf as on my own, and therefore I ask the representative of the Admiralty to give this matter serious consideration, and see if some concession cannot be made.
I hope my hon. Friend will not press this proposal, particularly in view of the circumstances in which the Bill has been recommitted. Whatever its merits, it is outside the reasons for which the Bill was recommitted.
The Amendment was down before the Bill was recommitted.
It raises issues of a very serious character. I make no apology whatever for dealing with the issues which have been raised in the speeches of the Mover and Seconder. They said that the Admiralty seizes the advantages of the Munitions of War Act, and denies to its workpeople its privileges. I deny that most emphatically and at once, and hope to be able to prove it.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if the men can go to the Committee on Production without the consent of the Admiralty?
I say, broadly speaking, that the men and women in the Royal Dockyards do get in full the spirit and the substance of every assurance and safeguard which has been given by the Government in the original agreement of 1915, in the original Munitions of War Act, and in the Regulations made thereunder. I say they get in full—and I will prove it the spirit and substance of all those assurances—assurances which secure that the relaxations which have been made for the purpose of increasing the output, under trade union regulations, etc., shall not be exploited hereafter in such a way as to secure the lowering of the general standard of comfort and amenity which they have won for their wives, their children, and themselves. I say that the dockyards do get the full substance of all that. I also say that you cannot slavishly apply the precise letter of the regulations and statutory enactments which have been designed for an entirely different set of establishments, and are not applicable here. If you endeavour to do that you will do more harm than good. The Royal dockyards are entirely different organisations from the private firms. Let me explain why. You have within the four walls of the Royal dockyards an industrial organisation which has no counterpart outside. You have inside the Royal dockyards a new construction shipyard, a repair shipyard, a variety of engineering shops (electrical and marine), a victualling yard; a hospital, an ordnance depot, a naval store department, a captain of dockyard's department, and so on. All these denominations of industries call for work which finds no counterpart outside, and if you endeavour to apply outside regulations you will do more harm than good. But, I repeat again, and I am going to prove my statement, that our whole aim from the beginning has been to secure to our men, in every way, the full substance of these benefits. If it should be suggested—as it has been suggested to-night—that we take all the advantages of the Munitions of War Act and deny to our workpeople the privileges of the assurances of protection—that they have never received the benefits, as my hon. and learned Friend says—then that is a statement which is absolutely untrue.
I never said so. I said that under the Act they were not entitled to it.
Why should we deny them it? What interest have we in so doing? We have no other interest except to see that they are fairly and squarely treated. We do not work for dividends or profit, but we undoubtedly do give our people the full substance of these benefits. This is our policy: we seek to live up to the record of the best employers, and no class of man has ever appealed to us for consideration on the ground that outside employers were doing better than we were.
But what about the cases I put on 17th March of this year, which are not remedied yet?
The hon. Member refers to the Ropery case. I have already said I will deal with that; but let me get on. There is another point. Our establishments are dissimilar to those outside. A very considerable number of our employés are industrial, pensionable, Civil servants, and to endeavour to apply to them regulations meant to apply to other industries is quite impossible. With regard to the appeal to the Committee on Production, the Committee would imagine, from the hon. Member for Barrow (Mr. Duncan), that the Board of Admiralty said "No; nonsense," in every case. He brought a deputation to me in 1915, when the first war bonus was asked for. He will remember it. What was the question put to me, and what was my reply? I said I had no authority to grant it, and that the matter must be discussed by the Board of Admiralty. He said, "Can we go to the Committee on Production?" and I said, "By all means" They went to the Committee on Production and got the war bonus.
One swallow does not make a summer.
The very question put to me was as to whether they could go to the Committee on Production on this particular case; I said they could, and they did; and he does not deny that.
No; but one swallow does not make a summer.
There are several other swallows. It is quite true that the appeal to the Committee on Production is with the concurrence of the Board of Admiralty, but I think, with one exception or at most two, that permission has been freely given. My hon. Friend says that the men he referred to at Devonport are not now fairly treated.
Mr. DUNCAN rose—
I now say that the point raised shall be dealt with. It shall be heard by the Committee on Production, so far as I am concerned. Our men got their first war bonus from the Committee on Production with our full agreement. Take what has happened since. The hon. Member for Chatham referred to a possibility of a strike at Chatham. The Chatham men have been very loyal, and I feel very keenly the suggestion of the hon. Member for Barrow that we exploit their loyalty. Take the question of the bonus. The outside Federated Shipbuilding and Engineering Trades employés went to the Committee on Production and got a 5s. bonus, to come into operation on the 1st April. What did we do? Consistent with our policy, I watched their proceedings very closely, and the moment I knew the award was given, early in March I think it was, I at once went to the Treasury and said, "This award is not given to the dockyard employés. They were not heard; they did not make an appeal. It is given on behalf of outside and civilian employés, but the men in the dockyards are shipbuilders and engineers just as much as these, and in equity they should get the award." And they got it from the same date, the 1st April. That does not look like exploiting their loyalty.
Mr. DUNCAN rose—
Hear, hear! Go on!
The hon. Member for Chatham says that the men, knowing that this award had been given outside early in March and coming into operation on the 1st April, were anxious lest they should not get it too, and he said they threatened to strike. I dare say a section did. I am very glad they were loyal, and I should be the last to exploit their loyalty. If they are loyal, there is the more reason to be prompt, and not to wait until they clamour for it. I have never done that. The hon. Member says they were anxious lest they should not get it also. He knows that at that moment I was calling attention to the fact that in equity our men ought to get it from 1st April.
I know it since.
Was that a ground for men striking and not waiting until the outside award was due and before they knew whether they would get anything or not? I do not believe the workmen of Chatham would be guilty of it. I know my hon. and learned Friend's keen interest in these men, but I think he puts them in the wrong when he says they would strike before the date on which the outside award was to be given.
The outside award was given early in March. You left the men in the yard without any notification that it would be extended to them until 29th March.
My hon. Friend's statement is that the men at Chatham would strike in respect of an outside award before it came into operation. They would strike because they thought they were not going to get the award before it come into operation for the men to whom it was awarded. I do not believe it. However, it is my duty to see that they get the same pay.
I do not know whether this is the right occasion, on the Second Reading of this Clause, to go into a long discussion about dockyard disputes.
I am sorry, Mr. Maclean, I was taking up the point that had been raised by my hon. and learned Friend. With respect to the suggestion that we exploit the men, I give that a denial. We do take note of matters. As I have pointed out. I have gone to the Treasury on behalf of the men in regard to these awards. Take the last award, given in regard to bonus given to outside men. Directly I heard that this bonus award had been given, I said, "Our men must have this," and they got it on the 1st August. Is that exploiting the loyalty of these men who have served us so well? I say, no. As regards piece work. The hon. Member (Mr. Duncan) asserts that the men are being unfairly treated. I will not go into detail too closely. Piece-work rates are to be fixed fairly in accordance with previous Admiralty instructions. The Admiralty Order of April last says:
"The piece-work rates are to be fixed fairly in accordance with previous Admiralty instructions on the subject; there is to be no restriction on earnings; and the piece workers are to be paid whatever they earn on the prices fixed. The piece-work rates are not to be reduced on account of the earnings exceeding any percentage over time rates, and for the same work carried out with the same tools and appliances under the same conditions rates are not to be reduced without special Admiralty authority. Any inquiry, complaint or representation respecting the working of the piecework system or in regard to any detail in the working thereof to be immediately dealt with, and if necessary referred to the Admiralty."
My hon. Friend (Mr. Duncan) is quite wrong. The case of the men is heard, and dealt with where possible. There is the annual hearing, in which the men have a complete right of access to the Board of Admiralty. Though that is in abeyance during the War, in effect it is to a large extent carried on informally by the deputations that come to me.
The annual hearings have been discontinued, as you know.
Then why does the hon. Member come to me again and again? I hope he is serious.
I am very serious.
Since the War began my hon. Friend has been to me over and over again, and all his representations and messages have been replied to fully. That is also the case in reference to my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham. All I hope is that this serious proposal, that the man sha]l in every case have the right of access, will be treated seriously, and will not be unduly pressed at this juncture, It raises certain issues. Among others, it raises this issue. It may conceivably break down the old system of hearing petitions. It is a very old system. Both my hon. Friends are very familiar with it. It gives to every man in the Royal dockyards the right of access to the Board of Admiralty, and the men as a body have received many benefits from it. If you break this down you leave nothing in its place under the Munitions of War Act, and I think that you will have done the men a very great injustice. I cannot conclude without paying the most grateful tribute to these men for their conduct throughout the whole War for the way in which they have stood the strain. I speak on behalf of the Board of Admiralty when I pay that tribute, and I resent and they resent the suggestion that because we do not talk about it, therefore we are not ready to listen with the utmost care and to give the utmost attention and the closest consideration to every representation that is made. Anyone who says that that is so cannot be acquainted with the facts.
I should like to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if I am correct in understanding that he told my hon. Friend that the employés in the dockyards can go to the Committee on Production with any of their grievances? That is what I understand from what has been said. When we, on behalf of our thousands of members, approach the great shipping federation and arrange certain advances from employers in all parts of the United Kingdom, we want to know are the thousands of our members who are in the dockyards to receive the same advances without the necessity of making application for the same grants'? That is the question really at issue. Our object is to keep down irritation. I am not making any complaints. Our object is to make sure that those of our craftsmen with the same qualifications and the same claims as men working outside, and who work at the same crafts inside the dockyards, should get the same terms as their fellow craftsmen outside the dockyards. If some arrangement could be come to I think it would help to allay irritation, because I would like the Secretary to the Admiralty to understand that there is more or less friction in the dockyards as well as outside. My object simply is to allay irritation, and increase and continue the output. I have another point, but I would like first a reply to that.
I do not want any misunderstanding. I thought I said quite clearly, in reference to the first request of my hon. Friend, that the employés should have the right of access to the Committee on Production, that I our consent has been withheld only once or, at most, twice, and that in every other case they went with our full concurrence. With regard to the other point, which is a matter that has always been with us where there is an award by the Committee, which has not been given to our men, if in our opinion they are as much entitled to it as those on whose behalf it has been made, we at once go to the Treasury and state what we think is fair and right and ask that the board should be able to act on the same basis.
The Secretary to the Admiralty has told us that the decision was given by the Committee on Production immediately. Is it not the fact that before they took any steps at all, so far at least as two advances are concerned, that they had received a request from one at least of the trades concerned?
I think that that is very likely. My hon. Friend is always very ready to draw my attention to these matters.
May I ask my right hon. Friend if it is his decision that the awards which are made should be extended to the men in the dockyards? If an undertaking is given that these awards shall be extended I am sure that it would be honourably carried out, and I should be prepared to withdraw the Clause on the understanding that the employés in the dockyards should get the same awards as those outside.
If the award in the view of the Board, taking a generous view of the conditions, is one which can be applied to the men inside as it is to those working outside in the same conditions, and one which in equity ought to be applied to our men, in that case the Board will at once see that it conies into operation as from the same date.
There is another point that I would like to mention. In reference to what has been said by the hon. Member opposite I am not in a position to speak definitely for the thousands of our members in the dockyards. The hon. Member for Chatham may have it from Chatham, but I have a whole lot of members all over the country to consider, and I am not in a position to speak definitely for them on this, but perhaps if the representative of the Admiralty would promise to refer this to the Minister of Munitions in detail, and thoroughly to consider it and see whether or not it be an advantage, it would help to allay discontent.
I am anxious to consider this fully with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Munitions, but it would be most unwise at this juncture to press us, for the reasons which I have given.
In those circumstances, on the clear understanding that has been come to and in view of what my right hon. Friend has said, which I am sure he would never construe in an illiberal spirit, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill reported; as amended in Committee and on recommittal, considered.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
In reference to the proposal made this afternoon to make an addition to paragraph 7 of the Second Schedule of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, I wish to point out that the whole object is to assist what has been asked for on the question of dilution of labour. In cases where certain work was being done, before the Act was passed, in most of the large shipbuilding yards of the country, and the masters were making demands on the men, we met the masters and the representatives of the Admiralty and we agreed to get the work expedited. The object of our proposal was to assist this being done. So far as we are concerned we have done everything possible to expedite the output, but as a result of certain action that was taken by others the work was not expedited, and a lessened output has resulted. The object of the method proposed in this addition to the Schedule is to get proper men to assist in expediting the work.
I quite understand the point which my hon. Friend (Mr. Wilkie) has raised, but I did not think it advisable to put anything in that could be left over until the autumn. After all, we shall be back again in eight weeks. I am going to bring that up with other matters, just as important and desirable, that have been left out, and some additional matters on which I have been pressed. Therefore, I hope my hon. Friend will rest content with that. May I, before we part with the Bill, express on behalf of the Ministry of Munitions sincere gratitude to the House for the extraordinary rapidity with which they have disposed of this piece of legislation.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Solicitors (Examination) Bill [Lords.]
Order for Committee read.
The Instruction on the Paper in the name of the right hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) — ["That is be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill that they have power to include in the Bill provisions enabling women to enter for examination to be admitted as solicitors and to be admitted to practice in the profession accordingly"] is out of order. The question of the admission of women to the profession of solicitor is not one which is revelant to this Bill. The same applies to the Instruction in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills) — ["That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to include in the Bill provisions enabling women to present themselves for the examinations mentioned in the Bill, and enabling them to be examined"].
On a point of Order. May I call your attention to the very limited character of my Instruction? This Bill is for the examination of candidates who desire to enter the solicitor's profession, and my Instruction only asks that the Committee have power to include in the Bill a provision enabling women to present themselves to be examined. It does not touch the question of admission; it merely says that a woman has got the right to attend the examinations, and that the Law Society must examine her. I submit that I clearly am within the title of the Bill, and I also submit, with respect, that I am within the scope of the Bill. The Bill is one that deals with one part only of the process that a man has to go through in his legal training, and if a woman chooses to train herself, surely she ought to be entitled to put that training to the only real test it can receive, and that is the examinations! She cannot be admitted unless she has served in articles of apprenticeship, and she has no power to serve in those articles at present. Therefore, this Instruction, I hold, would not open the solicitors' profession to women. It would simply give them the right to be examined.
How can a woman be examined to become a solicitor unless she is qualified to become a solicitor? These examinations are not open to everybody. They are not open to the hon. and gallant Member (Major Hills) and myself, for instance.
I have been through them.
They are not open to us unless we are already qualified to be examined, and a woman would not be qualified to be examined unless she had complied with the Solicitors' Act. Therefore, this Instruction would be absolutely useless.
May I, with all submission, ask if that is really quite the case? There are, I understand, a certain number of women who are engaged in connection with solicitors' offices at the present time in miscellaneous work, and these examinations—the preliminary, the intermediate, and the final—would be open to them. If they passed these examinations it would be an advantage to them to be at that point without prejudice in the least to the question of whether they should become full solicitors. It is for that reason that it is requested that this power should be given. It really does not lead us to the question of admission, but it does give these particular women, who are trained to this kind of work, a chance of passing these examinations, which they could pass; and if they did pass it would improve their position. I would venture to submit, therefore, that this narrower Instruction may be within the scope of the Bill.
That is what is called the thin edge of the wedge. My view is that this Instruction cannot be grafted on to a Bill the object of which is to reduce the number of examinations from three to two. A proposal that women should be allowed to take the preliminary stages that would enable them to become solicitors is not in order and is really opening up an entirely different issue to that on which the House has already pronounced on Second Reading; it ought to be in another Bill.
Before you decide that point altogether, may I call your attention to the analogy of the universities? There, the women students, although not members of the universities and not eligible for the degrees, are, in most cases, admitted to the examinations. I submit that the position would be exactly analogous in this case and that women who are in the solicitors offices would be admitted to the examinations although not eligible to become members of the profession.
The answer to that is that assuming that there was a, Bill which said that in consequence of the War no "Little-Go" examinations would be necessary and only the Tripos, on that the hon. Member would propose an Instruction that women should be admitted to the universities.
No, Sir; to the examinations, not to the universities and not to the degrees.
I am afraid I cannot accept it.
Bill considered in Committee.
[Mr. MACLEAN in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Amendment of Law Relating to Solicitors' Qualifying Examination.)
(1) During the continuance of this Act it shall not be necessary for the Law Society to hold more than twice in a year such examinations as are mentioned in Section six of the Solicitors Act, 1877, and that Section shall during that period have effect as if "twice" were substituted for "three times."
(2) It shall be lawful for the Law Society during the continuance of this Act to permit any candidate for the final examination to present himself for such an examination and be examined at any time within six months before the termination of his term of service under articles of clerkship.
The Amendments on the Paper in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills) and other Members are, in view of the ruling just given by Mr. Speaker, out of order in Committee.
Motion made, and Question, proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
On this I should like to ask the Government once more if they will reconsider the position they have taken up. It is not one that meets with the approval of the House, and it is not one that meets with the approval of the country. I submit to them that they have here—I do not want to argue that point; I merely state its real war measure. The raison d'être of this Bill is the fact that fewer men are coming forward to be examined.
The world's work has to be carried on in the law as in all other trades, and the depletion in the ranks of men must be filled up by women. The solicitors' profession has this peculiar feature: Nobody can become a practising solicitor unless he has served in articles for five or three years. Even if you remove the bar now you will not get any women admitted for three or five years, and, therefore, it is a thing you ought to do at once. You cannot leave it until after the War, because unless you remove it now you will have a serious deficiency. I suppose I should not be in order in arguing the general question, but there is a very strong case. I appeal to the Solicitor-General, who is in charge of the Bill, because, in one case that I know of, a woman is actually taking the place of a brother who has gone to the War. In many cases women are doing the work of admitted men, and the fact that they are not themselves admitted will mean that they are paid less. It is extremely unfair, and constitutes a grievance that should be remedied. I do not think that the cry of competition need frighten us. After all, we have heard the same cry in connection with the medical profession; and what doctor now fears the competition of women? One last word. Where should we have been in the War without women doctors? I know that, time cannot be given now, but I appeal to the Government to give us a day in the Autumn Session.
I should like to ask the Solicitor-General if he would be good enough to explain one thing, because I am not quite certain what the answer given this afternoon at question time meant. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, I think, said that he would not give any promise for the autumn, but I hope that did not mean that he had closed his mind. When he said that he could not promise at this time, possibly it meant that he would be guided by the circumstances when we get into the Autumn Session. I repeat, that I hope the right hon. Gentleman's answer does not mean that he has closed his mind, but that he still leaves it open to grant this request later on. I trust that the Solicitor-General will make that plain, even if he will not go so far now as to give us a definite promise on the subject.
Although the matter is not strictly relevant, I should like to say that, in accordance with what was said on a former occasion, I have consulted my colleagues with reference to the Solicitors' (Qualification of Women) Bill. That is a Private Member's Bill which the Government, for the present at any rate, cannot take up as a Government measure. It is admittedly—I use the expression deliberately, after re-reading the Debate in another place—it is admittedly not an emergency Bill, but, on the contrary, is expressly intended to be permanent. In other words, at a time when a large number of solicitors are absent on military service, it seeks permanently to admit women to the profession of solicitors. How little it is a war measure may be seen at once from the fact that, even if it were forthwith passed into law, a woman could not become a solicitor before five years hence, or, if she had been successful in certain university examinations, before three years hence. Nemo repente fuit — doctissimus. It takes a little time to make a solicitor. Obviously, the measure is highly controversial, and it has no relation at all to the present Bill.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2 ( Short Title, Extent, and Duration ), ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Business of the House
Resolved, That this House do meet this day (Thursday) at Twelve of the Clock. [ Mr. Bonar Law. ]
It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock on Wednesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at Fourteen minutes before One o'clock.