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Commons Chamber

Volume 97: debated on Monday 20 August 1917

House of Commons

Monday, August 20, 1917

Private Business

Private Bill Petitions [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for the following Bill, originating in the Lords, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, namely:

South Staffordshire Mond Gas (Power and Heating) (No. 2) [ Lords ].

Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

Martin's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],

Read the third time, and passed, without Amendment.

Naval Prize Money

Copy presented of Account showing the Receipt and Expenditure of Naval Prize, Bounty, Salvage, and other Moneys between 1st April, 1916, and 31st March, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Organisation of Commercial Intelligence

Copy presented of Memorandum by the Board of Trade and Foreign Office with respect to Future Organisation of Commercial Intelligence [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

National Health Insurance (Joint Committee) (Regulations)

Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 17th August, 1917, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, acting jointly with the Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Benefits of Disabled Seamen and Soldiers) Regulations, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

National Health Insurance Commission (England) (Regulations)

Copy presented of Provisional Regulations, dated 17th August, 1917, made by the Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Discharged Seamen and Soldiers) Regulations, 191T [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Army

Copy presented of Amendments made to the Rules of Procedure, 1907 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Army (Regimental Debts)

Copy presented of Royal Warrant. Regulations under the Regimental Debts Act, 1893 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Wool (Hosiery Trade)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether sufficient wool will be available this autumn and winter for the service of the hosiery trade?

The available wool supplies are being utilised in the first instance for the provision of Army requirements, of which hosiery forms a considerable portion. Sufficient wool will be available for military purposes, but the amount that will be available for civil consumption is entirely dependent upon shipping and other contingencies. Every endeavour is being, and will be made, to enable hosiery and other branches of the textile trade to maintain their working; hours at as high a level as possible.

Railway Station Cabs

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, as the railways and their approaches are now under Government control, he can see his way to cancel the toll upon cabs using railway stations or to meet the men's representatives with a view to bringing about a settlement, thereby preventing further inconvenience to railway travellers?

I am afraid that I cannot add anything to the reply given to the right hon. Gentleman on Thursday last.

Mercantile Marine

Loss of Life

asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether he can state the number of officers and men of the merchant service killed during the present War, including officers and men who are on the Admiralty pay list serving in the Royal Naval Reserve or in any capacity in fleet auxiliaries, transports, mine-sweepers, patrols, etc.?

The number of officers and seamen of the merchant service reported as having lost their lives on merchant vessels through enemy action from the beginning of the War to 18th August, 1917, is 6,627. This figure does not include the loss of life of officers and men on the Admiralty pay list, and I would refer my hon. Friend to that Department for information on that point.

Free Insurance of Effects

asked the President of the Board of Trade, with reference to White Paper (Cd. 8706), whether he will state what is the amount covered by free insurance of effects of masters and officers of the merchant service; whether the amount will be paid in all cases where effects are lost through collision due to steaming without lights or other indirect effects of the state of war; whether, in cases where ships visit ports other than the normal port of discharge and masters and officers are unable to visit their homes owing to their duties, special railway facilities will be granted to their wives to visit them; whether he will state to whom officers and men entitled to wear the silver war badge under the regulation now issued are to apply; and whether he can state when and in what form the Roll of Honour for the mercantile marine is to be published?

The maximum amounts covered by the free insurance of the effects of masters and officers of the merchant service is £100 and £50 respectively. Collisions which are directly due to steaming without lights are treated as war losses for the purposes of the effects scheme.

The proposal to extend the special railway facilities granted to masters, officers, and seamen of merchant ships will receive consideration.

The arrangements made for the issue of the silver war badge by the Board of Trade will apply to masters, officers, and seamen employed on board any British merchant ship except where the crew are engaged and paid direct by the Admiralty or Ministry of Shipping, and claims should be sent to the Board of Trade unless the crew are paid direct by either of the two Departments named. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the first issue of the Roll of Honour.

Will the Roll of Honour be made public, and in what way? Will it be in the newspapers as in the case of the Army and Navy?

Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that the services, the heroic services, of these merchant captains is recognised in the next Honours List?

The right hon. Gentleman did not answer as to what form the public are to know of this Roll of Honour of the merchant service? Communication to Members of Parliament will hardly meet the case.

I am not in a position to give a definite answer to that question, I will give it consideration.

Questions

Matches (Home Supply)

asked the Secretary to the Board of Trade whether he can state how soon the reorganisation will have taken place which will enable the Board to meet the scarcity of matches which now exists, and relieve the public from the present inconvenience?

A matter of this kind necessarily takes some time, and I am not in a position at the moment to make any further statement on this subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that storekeepers all round the country write that they cannot get supplies, that Bryant and May and other English firms say that they cannot supply them, and that there is a serious shortage of matches?

Why were no precautionary measures taken when there was certain to be a serious shortage?

I have correspondence on the subject which I can show the right hon. Gentleman.

India

Government Policy

asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the Adjournment for the Recess, he is in a position to make any announcement as to the policy which the Government intend to pursue in India?

The Government of India have for some time been urging that a statement should be made in regard to Indian policy, and I am glad to have the opportunity, afforded by my hon. Friend's question, of meeting their wishes. The policy of His Majesty's Government, with which the Government of India are in complete accord, is that of the increasing association of Indians in every branch of the administration, and the gradual development of self-governing institutions, with a view to the progressive realisation of responsible government in India as an integral part of the British Empire. They have decided that substantial steps in this direction should be taken as soon as possible, and that it is of the highest importance, as a preliminary to considering what these steps should be, that there should be a free and informal exchange of opinion between those in authority at home and in India. His Majesty's Government have accordingly decided, with His Majesty's approval, that I should accept the Viceroy's invitation to proceed to India to discuss these matters with the Viceroy and the Government of India, to consider with the Viceroy the views of local governments, and to receive with him the suggestions of representative bodies and others.

I would add that progress in this policy can only be achieved by successive stages. The British Government and the Government of India, on whom the responsibility lies for the welfare and advancement of the Indian peoples, must be the judges of the time and measure of each advance, and they must be guided by the co-operation received from those upon whom new opportunities of service will thus be conferred, and by the extent to which it is found that confidence can be reposed in their sense of responsibility.

Ample opportunity will be afforded for public discussion of the proposals, which will be submitted in due course to Parliament.

While congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on the very far reaching statement of policy which he has just made, I beg to ask whether a statement to the like effect will be made officially in India?

May I ask whether, in view of this admirable statement, there is any chance of an amnesty of people imprisoned in India?

I cannot add anything to my statement. As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, the responsibility for the maintenance of order in India rests on the Government of India.

May I ask whether the principles on which the right hon. Gentle- man proposes to act were correctly outlined by him in the speech he made prior to his appointment?

That speech was made when I was a Private Member, and represented my own views. I am now acting as the spokesman of His Majesty's Government.

I do not think I can make an announcement of policy when the decision of the Cabinet is that we should proceed to elaborate that policy by conversations between the India Office and the Government of India.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that statements of policy were put forward by himself on that occasion, and also by Lord Islington, and we want to know whether those statements represent the views of the Government?

I have to-day announced the views of the Government. I do not think I can be cross-examined about a speech I made when I was a Private Member.

Mr. Gokhale's Will

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the House will have any opportunity of discussing the political last will and testament of the late Mr. Gokhale?

This question should properly be addressed to the Leader of the House, but I think in the circumstances a discussion on the document to which my hon. Friend refers would not be possible or useful at present.

Will the right hon. Gentlemen take fully into account this moderate and statesmanlike document in future negotiations with India?

Certainly any document left by Mr. Gokhale, and published by his friends, must receive the most careful consideration.

Army Commissions to Indians

asked the Secretary of State for India what is the Government's decision as to the granting of commissions in the Army to Indians?

( by Private Notice )asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has yet come to any conclusions as to granting the King's Commission to Indian citizens?

The Government have decided that the bar which has hitherto precluded the admission of Indians to commissioned rank in His Majesty's Army should be removed, and, in accordance with this decision steps are being taken for the grant of commissions to nine Indian officers belonging to the Native Indian Land Forces who have served in the field in the present War and have been recommended for this honour by the Government of India in recognition of their services. Their names will be notified in the "London Gazette," and they will be posted to the Indian Army in the same Gazette.

The general conditions under which Indians should in future be eligible for commissions are under discussion between the Government of India and myself. I shall in due course consult the Army Council with a view to the introduction of a carefully considered scheme, which will provide for the selection of candidates and for their training in the important duties which will devolve upon them.

These gallant officers require no training; they have earned their commissions on the field of battle, and with regard to the future, that matter is at present under consideration.

Will the Army Council be considered as to the application of this to Indians, or will the whole Indian Army, and the Colonial, come in in such a way that they also have commissions, or is the scheme to be limited?

At the present time the principle of granting commissions to Indians has been conceded. Nine officers will immediately get their commissions. As for the conditions of granting commissions in the future, I am awaiting dispatches from the Government of India. Then the matter must be discussed with the War Office.

Is this the outcome of the decision of the Army Council? Was the matter referred to them?

Questions

Belgium (Shipment of Rifles)

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the publication of a letter written at the Foreign Office on 18th August, 1914, by the Under-Secretary of State and addressed to the British Consul-General in Antwerp, requesting the latter to facilitate the shipment of rifles from Belgium for the Irish National Volunteers; whether the military authorities were consulted before this letter was sent; and whether the Consul-General was able to effect the purpose required of him?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The rifles referred to were of an old Italian pattern, of small military value, and were the property of the Irish National Volunteers. The military authorities were informed at the time the letter was written. With regard to the last part of the question, I have no information.

Peace Proposals

asked whether a Note has been received from His Holiness the Pope urging the belligerents to consider terms of peace; and whether the Allied governments will confer on this matter before a reply is sent?

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a memorial petitioning for the initiation of negotiations with a view to securing a lasting peace; if so, what number of signatories subscribed to it; and what reply has been sent?

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question, may I ask if he is aware that this memorial is being run by a man of military age who got off service as a Baptist minister under false pretences, because he has no church, and he is the paid secretary to the Peace Society?

I was not aware of the information which my hon. and gallant Friend has just communicated. The document referred to has been received and has been acknowledged. It is stated to have been signed by 221,617 persons.

Baron Sonnino

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, on the occasion of the visit of Baron Sonnino to this country, it was agreed to increase the tonnage for the service of Italy, to accept the Italian modifications in their demands for spheres of influence in Asia Minor, and to maintain the previous claims made by Italy for the Dalmatian coast?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, on the occasion of the recent conference in London with Baron Sonnino, the modification demanded by Italy in the division of the spheres of influence in Asia Minor was discussed and accepted; and if he can state to what division of spheres of influence in Asia Minor this arrangement relates?

Inasmuch as a very important statement has been made by Baron Sonnino in Italy, would it not be consistent with the general policy of the Allies if, at any rate, some statement were made here?

Irish Trades Union Congress

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is now in a position to make a further statement about the application of the Irish Trades Union Congress for passports to attend the Stockholm Conference?

I much regret that the reply which was given to the hon. Member on the 13th instant was incorrect. Applications for passports were in fact made by the Irish Trades Union Congress and Labour party, but were refused.

If this misleading of the House on this subject was due to Lord Hardinge, will he be suitably but sternly reprimanded?

Sir Francis Vane

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will give the reasons why a passport for America was refused to Sir Francis Vane on 2nd May, 1917; whether he is aware that his presence was specially desired in America to assist in work for the Allied cause; and whether he is now able to promise a favourable reconsideration of Sir Francis Vane's application?

Albania

asked whether His Majesty's Government has officially recognised Essad Pasha as representative of Albania?

Poland

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that a statement in the "New York World" of 26th May that the British and French Missions to the United States discussed with President Wilson the difficulties in the way of the creation of an independent Poland has been widely circulated in Poland by the Wolff Agency and produced a very bad impression there; and whether he is prepared to make any statement confirming the declarations made by His Majesty's Ministers in regard to the independence of Poland?

I have seen the statement to which the hon. Member refers, and can only say that it has been completely transfigured by the Wolff communiqué. The views of His Majesty's Government and our Allies as to the future of Poland have been more than once stated in the most formal manner, and they have undergone no change.

Neutral Ships

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that a large number of neutral ships are still engaged in the carriage to German ports of goods of great military importance; and, if so, whether His Majesty's Government will be disposed to consider the possibility of discriminating against owners of such ships after the War?

In principle His Majesty Government are of opinion that neutral shipping which has been persistently and continuously engaged in assisting our enemies should be treated after the War in the same footing as enemy shipping.

Does my Noble Friend realise that neutral vessels which lie in port, in consequence of the threats of the German Government, are serving German interests in the same way as vessels actively engaged in the service of Germany?

Well, Sir; such shipping must certainly be considered as assisting the belligerent objects of our enemies.

Ladies' Gallery (Stone Mullions)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been called to a statement made in the House, in reply to a question on 23rd March, 1908, by the then First Commissioner of Works, to the effect that while sight and sound are interrupted and intercepted by the stone mullions in the Ladies' Gallery, these mullions are so essential a part of the structure of the House that it is impossible to interfere with or remove them; and whether he will say how, when removing the grille, he proposes to deal with these structural obstructions to sight and sound?

It is not proposed to remove the stone mullions, as they form part of the structure of the House itself.

Does the right hon. Gentleman imagine that the enfranchised woman of the future will be content with the inferior accommodation to be afforded her?

I am afraid I cannot at present reconstruct the House of Commons.

An HON. MEMBER: Get another gallery!

Office of Works (Messrs. Hayden and Company)

asked the First Commissioner of Works if he is aware that W. H. Hayden and Company, Limited, wholesale stationers, of over 100 years' standing in the City of London, had their original premises destroyed in a certain way a few weeks ago; that they then removed to unoccupied premises in Warwick Square, E. G.; if, after they were installed therein, the Office of Works gave them twelve hours' notice to vacate; if they did so and took other unoccupied premises in Newgate Street, E.C., which had been empty and advertised for letting for some time previously; if the Office of Works now demand possession of the firm's Newgate Street premises and have given them a few days' notice to vacate; whether he can say why the Newgate Street premises were not required by the Government until Hayden's entered them, although they are prominent and extensive corner premises and could not be overlooked; whether he is aware that there are also other vacant premises of equal suitability in the same neighbourhood; if it is necessary for this Government Department to be in a main street at great expense; and whether adequate compensation will be paid to W. H Hayden and Company, Limited, for the double disturbance, or manual assistance given them in their efforts to keep up with the requirements of the Office of Works?

When Messrs. W. H. Hayden and Company, Limited, entered into occupation of two floors of the premises in Warwick Square after the recent destruction of their former premises they were aware that there was a possibility of the building being required for Government purposes. On the requisitioning of the building temporary accommodation in Newgate Street was placed at the disposal of the firm to afford them time to make permanent arrangements, and the removal was carried out by this Department. It is understood that the permanent quarters of the firm will be ready for occupation by the 25th September. The further removal will be carried out by this Department, and the firm is entitled to prefer a claim in respect of any direct and substantial loss sustained. There is no proposal to occupy the premises in Newgate Street for Government purposes, and no notice has been given to Messrs. W. H. Hayden and Company, Limited, as suggested. The other questions do not, therefore, appear to arise.

Can the Office of Works not reconsider the advisability of utilising the London County Council building instead of hunting all over the place for premises?

Military Service

Russian Subjects

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now in a position to state the number of Russian subjects who have registered their names to return to Russia to serve there in the Army; and when the first list of men to be sent to Russia may be expected to leave these shores?

It is not considered advisable in the interests of the men themselves to give this information.

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he can now make a full statement of the arrangements made for setting up tribunals for Russian subjects under the Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Act?

As has already been stated, a special local tribunal will be established for London on which persons of the Jewish faith will be represented. The other three places in England and Wales where there are large numbers of Russians are Manchester, Liverpool, and Leeds. It is proposed that at these places applications relating to Russian subjects shall be dealt with by a special committee or committees of the local tribunal, and that each committee shall contain not less than two persons of the Jewish faith. I am informed by the Secretary for Scotland that similar arrangements will be made for Glasgow.

Will these tribunals begin their work almost immediately or at the earliest possible date?

Exemption Certificates

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he has received from the clerk to the local tribunal, Leeds, a unanimous resolution passed by the tribunal protesting against the multiplication of bodies authorised to issue certificates of exemption, with particular reference to the issue of scheduled occupation certificates by the munitions area recruiting office to men granted exemption conditional upon undertaking munitions work and whose exemption is no longer justifiable in the opinion of the local tribunal; whether he is aware that protection certificates have been granted to men who know nothing of munition production, being used for the purpose of labour dilution, while members of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, contrary to the agreement with the society, are being taken for the Army, leaving dilutants eligible for the Army to remain in civil occupation; whether he is aware that the resolution of the local tribunal is based on the protest of and evidence presented by a local branch of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers; and, having regard to the fact that the action of the munitions area recruiting office is causing discontent in the local workshops, whether a reply will be sent to the local tribunal agreeing to give effect to their wishes in the matter?

I received a copy of the resolution to which the hon. Member refers, and communicated with the Ministry of Munitions and with the local tribunal on the subject. The granting of protection certificates does not come under my jurisdiction, but I am sending to the Ministry of Munitions a copy of the hon. Member's question and of my reply, and am asking them to communicate with him on the subject.

Exempted Agriculturists (Dunblane)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that all the agriculturists granted exemption from military service at Dunblane on Tuesday, the 7th instant, were given such on condition that they joined a Volunteer Corps; if there is a training centre within four miles of their farms; and, if so, are these men expected to work from five in the morning to six at night, then walk four miles, do their training, and again walk that distance?

I am informed that in seventy-nine out of 117 agricultural cases disposed of by the local tribunal at Dunblane on the 7th instant a condition was added that the men were required to join a Volunteer Corps where there was a training centre within four miles. The chairman of the tribunal, however, made it clear that in any case where a man could show that it was unreasonable to insist on the condition, either owing to harvest or other necessary farm work, the man was to be entitled to ask to be relieved of the condition. I am making further inquiry into the matter.

Territorial Force Chaplain, Gerhallow Fort, Dunoon

asked the Under-secretary of State for War whether the instructions issued on 11th June, or shortly before that date, dealing with the replacement of the Territorial Force chaplain at Gerhallow Fort, Dunoon, on account of the fact that the men of whom he had spiritual charge had been removed from the district, have yet been carried out; if not, can he say whether this chaplain continues to draw a salary as an officer when the men have been taken elsewhere; and how long has this state of matters existed?

The relief of the chaplain in question entails certain readjustments elsewhere, and cannot be considered until these have been effected. It is hoped that the matter may be finally settled very shortly.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in June he said that instructions had been issued to this effect?

Promotions (Acting Rank)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he can state the conditions under which an officer promoted to acting rank as a captain or major is given substantive rank?

Acting rank is given to an officer who is acting in some position temporarily in place of the permanent holder. Substantive rank is given in the ordinary run of promotion to fill vacancies in permanent establishments. An acting captain or major is therefore eligible for substantive rank in his turn when a vacancy occurs for permanent promotion.

Medical Re-Examination (Appeals)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether a man who has been rejected and is called up for re-examination and is placed in the B or C category, and requests to be sent before a special medical board, has any right of appeal from the decision of a local tribunal refusing such request; and, if not, whether he will take steps to remedy this defect?

A man called up for re-examination under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act has the right, within thirty days from the date of the notice, to apply to a local tribunal for exemption from military service. He may, on the hearing of that application, make a request to be submitted for re-examination by the Special Medical Board. If he is dissatisfied with the decision of the local tribunal on his application for exemption, he has the usual right of appeal to the Appeal Tribunal.

Unloading Barges

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether a number of men classified C 3 recently at Margate, who were expecting discharge, but were transferred to Thetford and thence to Colchester, where they are now engaged in unloading barges of hay, have to carry weights varying from 112 to 240 lbs.; whether most of these men have been on active service, and are suffering from complaints which unfit them for heavy work of this character; and whether inquiries will be made with a view to these men being put to work of a lighter character?

Yes, Sir; a certain number of C 3 men have been employed on this work. The weight of the bales to be handled does not exceed 200 lbs., and these are rarely handled by one man. Arrangements are being made to replace any men not found to be suitable for the work.

Is my hon. Friend not aware that these duties are not duties according to the classification for C 3 men at all?

Expeditionary Force (Canteens)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his Department will sanction the purchase of goods from home in bulk by the canteens, instead of being forced to buy all from the Expeditionary Force canteens, in view of the fact that the men's demands so often cannot be catered for while the officers' demands can, and in this way allow each section to supply its own wants, suitable to the money it has to spend?

I am afraid that I can add nothing to the reply which I gave my hon. Friend on 17th instant.

Allotments (Birmingham)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he will take care that full compensation on an adequate scale is given to the allotment holders at Coventry Road, Birmingham, who have been dispossessed of their holdings for the convenience of his Department; and whether such compensation will include remuneration for the large amount of labour involved in the double digging of the grass land of which these allotments were originally composed?

I understand that the question of compensation in these cases is being dealt with by the Parks Department of the Birmingham Corporation, in consultation with the Board of Agriculture.

The hon. Gentleman has not answered the latter part of my question: whether compensation will be afforded for the special labour involved?

The greater includes the less; the whole question of compensation is being considered.

"Government Ale."

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, pending the receipt of the Report of the Advisory Committee appointed by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), he has any information regarding the effect of Government beer on the human constitution?

The only condition affecting the quality of "Government ale" is that it must not exceed a gravity of 1,036 degs. Its effect upon the human constitution should, therefore, not differ from the effect of the beer to which many thousands of workers have been accustomed in the past.

National Factory (Hereford)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware of the manner in which the engineering and electrical services have been fitted out in the Hereford National Factory by His Majesty's Office of Works; that the chief engineer of the factory in endeavouring to rectify matters was dismissed for so doing, and the maintenance handed over entirely to His Majesty's Office of Works; that the material has been of such poor quality that much of it had to be replaced by new material after a month's use; that one steam main burst in a dozen places ending in a fatal accident, and that public money has been wasted; and will he have an inquiry into the matter?

My right hon. Friend is satisfied with the manner in which the work referred to was carried out by His Majesty's Office of Works. The reason for the dismissal of the chief engineer was not as suggested in the question. In regard to the accident mentioned in the question, a full inquiry was made at the time, and no further action appears to be necessary.

Are these other things true or not? Was the material of poor quality, and had it to be replaced after a month's use?

No; the result of the inquiry was that it was not proved that the material was of poor quality and had to be replaced—except as regards a very, very small part of it.

Gretna (Places of Worship)

asked the Minister of Munitions what sums of money have been contributed to the four places of worship sites for which have been granted at Gretna; how many of these sites are in England and how many in Scotland; and what conditions, if any, have been imposed on the amounts to be raised voluntarily in each case?

The following grants of money have been made for the erection of places of worship in Gretna: Church of Scotland Church, £4,000; Episcopalian Church, £5,000; Roman Catholic Church, £4,000. No grant has been made for the Congregational Church. The four sites at Greta a are all in Scotland. The condition imposed as to the amount to be raised voluntarily in each case is that it shall be sufficient to complete the buildings which have been agreed upon.

May I ask whether the absence of any grant to the Congregational Church was in consequence of the attitude it took up or because of the attitude taken up by the Government?

May I ask whether similar facilities will be granted to Nonconformist bodies like the Wesleyans and other things of that sort at Gretna?

May we know whether the freehold of these sites remains the property of the Government or has it been vested in the various ecclesiastical authorities?

I believe at the moment it remains the property of the Government because the sites were granted when the land was under Government control under the Defence of the Realm Act.

Is it a new policy of the Government to use public funds for sectarian purposes?

Munitions

Women (War Service Badges)

asked the Minister of Munitions if he will consider the issue of badges, or something similar and under suitable conditions, to women engaged on munitions in Government and controlled establishments in recognition and appreciation of their services to the nation in the prosecution of the War?

War Service badges have been issued since May, 1916, to women engaged full time on work in Government factories and controlled establishments.

Representation of the People Bill

asked the Home Secretary whether the Fourth Schedule, Part III., of the Representation of the People Bill, dealing with universities, will be filled in by the Government prior to the discussion in Committee of Clause 27 of the Bill?

United Press of America

asked the Home Secretary whether he has completed the inquiries which he promised to make in regard to a member of the staff of the United Press of America who was alleged to. be pro-German in sentiment, and whose wife was said to be of German origin passing as a Norwegian, and with what result?

Yes, Sir; I have made inquiries, and can find nothing to support the allegations made in the question addressed to me on the 3rd of August by the hon. Member for the College Division of Glasgow.

Is the Home Secretary aware that the Member referred to is in communication with America in order to get substantiation of the facts he alleges?

Cigarette Smoking by Girls

asked the Home Secretary if his attention has been called to the dangers attendant upon the practice of excessive cigarette smoking by young girls; and if he will consider the prohibition of smoking by girls under the age of twenty-one?

Smoking by children under the age of sixteen is prohibited by the Children Act. Cigarette smoking by girls over that age could not be prohibited without legislation, which I am not prepared to propose to the House.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the prohibition is a byword, and no one pays the slightest attention to it?

Could it not be done by a new Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act?

Purchase of Property (Committee of Public Accounts)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been directed to the case referred to in paragraph 40 of the recent Report from the Committee of Public Accounts relating to the payment in 1912 of £70,000 as purchase money for a property of some 2,000 acres and the compensations therein mentioned; and what was being taken as the valuation of that property for rating at the time of its purchase or any later date at which it was in approximately the same condition as at. the time of the purchase?

I have had to refer to the local military authorities in this matter, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend as soon as I am in a. position to do so.

Bristol (City Boundaries Extension)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, seeing that the city of Bristol has threatened the immediate introduction of a Bill into Parliament for a large extension of the city boundaries, the views of himself and his Department are the same as those which he expressed in this House on the 14th December, 1915; and whether the Government would favour discussion of such a proposal during the War?

The Bristol Corporation have not submitted their proposals to the Local Government Board, but, on the information before me, I have written to them that, unless there is a reasonable prospect of fairly general concurrence in their proposals, I think that they would be well advised if they decided to postpone action in the matter until after the conclusion of the War.

Food Supplies

Sugar

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the grocers of the country have absorbed a large portion of the bread trade of the actual bakers of the bread, from the fact that grocers alone could provide sugar for the public, and will he therefore in his new sugar scheme include bakers' shops in the distribution, so that no trader may suffer loss of trade by the action of his Department?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. Under the new scheme of sugar distribution a food control committee will be entitled to register as a retailer of sugar an applicant who has not hitherto carried on that trade if they consider this to be necessary in the interests of the public in their area. The Food Controller, however, does not regard it as in the public interest that the right to sell sugar should be extended so widely as is suggested in the question.

asked whether lodgers who purchase all their own food will be permitted to procure their own sugar cards from the post office and buy their own sugar?

Under the new scheme lodgers purchasing their own food will be entitled, if they so desire, to make separate application for sugar cards to the local Food Office, and to continue to buy their own sugar.

Flour Mills (Ireland)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what steps he has taken to increase the output of the Irish flour mills, and especially those mills which have not been used for some years past?

In so far as the reduced output of Irish flour mills is attributable to the competition of low-priced English flour, the contemplated provision that all mills throughout the United Kingdom shall sell their flour at a flat rate at the mill door will tend to increase the output of Irish mills.

Will the hon. Gentleman take steps to assist the owners of mills in Ireland which have gone out of repair owing to their not having been used?

We contemplate that the effect of the new system will be to greatly assist the Irish millers.

Grain (Storage)

asked what arrangements are being made for the conservation and storage during the forthcoming autumn and winter of the largely increased food output from the arable land of the United Kingdom, and especially of the Irish oat crop, with a view to its being available in good condition for human consumption next spring and summer?

No special steps for the conservation and storage of home-grown grain generally are at present in contemplation, as it is believed that the existing means will prove sufficient. The rising scale of prices provided by the Grain (Prices) Order is expected to result in the normal proportion of stocks remaining in the stacks. The Irish Department of Agriculture are using every endeavour to induce Irish farmers to stack their oats.

Bread

asked to what extent the consumption of breadstuffs throughout the United Kingdom was reduced in May, June, and July of this year as compared with the same months respectively in 1916; what is the source of his information and whether it is now comprehensive; and whether the reduction is approximately uniform throughout the Kingdom?

For the month of May this year the consumption of bread and flour was practically the same as in May, 1916; for the month of June it shows a reduction of 3½ per cent.; and for the month of July the reduction amounts to 7 per cent. The information is based on returns from about 6,000 retailers covering from one-fourth to one-third of the whole consumption throughout the United Kingdom, and these returns are confirmed by others relating to the delivery of flour from the mills. The reduction is more substantial in large towns than in country districts; it is greater in England and Scotland than in Ireland and Wales; it is greater in Lancashire, Yorkshire, and the North than in the Midlands and the South. There has been a considerable reduction in the use of flour for industrial purposes.

Questions

Irish Migratory Labourers in Scotland

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he has received a protest from Reverend T. A. Hayes, of Troop, Ayrshire, against the conditions of Irish labour in connection with potato digging in Scotland, and which the reverend gentleman describes as nothing better than white slavery; whether he has inquired into the allegations made by Father Hayes in support of his protest; and when steps will be taken to improve the conditions in which these Irish migratory labourers have hitherto been constrained to live?

I have received the letter referred to, but no particulars as to the farms in question. No complaints have reached the sanitary authorities this season, and I am informed that as the result of previous investigations the general conditions have considerably improved, and that there is regular inspection of the accommodation provided. I understand the Royal Commission on Housing is paying special attention to this question, and any recommendations that they make will receive my careful attention.

Has the right hon. Gentleman had an opportunity of making further inquiries into this subject, as he promised about a week ago?

Yes; a telegram was sent to the Reverend T. A. Hayes, who wrote me a letter without certain particulars, asking for those particulars, but no reply has come by telegram.

Prime Minister's Secretariat (Liaison Officials)

asked the Prime Minister how many assistant secretaries and others are employed by his secretariat to act as liaison officials between the secretariat and other Departments of the Government; and will he give their names?

I can add nothing to the answer which I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend on the 31st July.

Cabinet Procedure

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that disclosures of Cabinet secrets outside the House of Commons has been forbidden by recent legislation under severe penalties, he will say whether the Privy Councillor's oath is still held to be applicable to Cabinet proceedings as a high obligation with which no one can dispense except the Sovereign; whether the establishment for the first time in the formation of the present Government of a War Cabinet office, with secretaries and a staff of clerks for the making of memoranda and minutes of proceedings, including précis of the Cabinet discussions and the discharge of correspondence, has made any and, if so, what modification in the former inviolable secrecy of Cabinet proceedings of which no one was entitled to make a note except the Prime Minister to assist his memory in reports to the Sovereign; whether the rule still obtains that disclosures of Cabinet discussions are made only with the express permission of the Sovereign, but this permission should be obtained through the intervention of the Prime Minister, and that the discussion should be strictly limited by the terms of the permission granted; and was such express permission obtained before the Motion for the Adjournment of the House of Commons on Monday last to discuss the circumstances of the resignation of a Cabinet Minister; and, if so, was the permission subject to any and what conditions?

The answer to the first and third parts of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, the establishment of a War Cabinet Office has made no change in the procedure. The answer to the fourth part of the question is in the negative.

Has the right hon. Gentleman not had his attention called to the recent disclosure of proceedings within the Cabinet in many papers, and is he not able to take any action in the matter?

Illegal Drilling (Ireland)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that military Courts in Ireland, acting under martial law, have sentenced young men to long terms of imprisonment, some being for two years' hard labour, on charges of illegal drilling and wearing volunteer uniforms; whether he is aware that with the encouragement of a member of the War Cabinet similar acts were committed by thousands of Ulster Unionists, and that not in one case was even a Police Court summons issued; whether he is aware that the sentences of the military Courts are regarded even by those who have no sympathy with drilling as being therefore partisan and vindictive, and as proving that there is one law for the Nationalist and a different law for the Unionist; and whether the War Cabinet will, with a view to establishing impartiality in the administration of the law, direct the immediate release of those sentenced by the military Courts?

No action of the kind suggested in the question has been taken, except in consequence of overt acts contrary to law. Some of the prisoners recently released by way of amnesty have been exerting themselves since their release to reproduce the drilled and armed forces which took part last year in an armed rising, and it has therefore been necessary to enforce the Defence of the Realm Regulations with regard to drilling. In most of the cases where there have been trials short terms of imprisonment have been inflicted, and all the sentences have been carefully reviewed by the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in Ireland. The answer to the last part of the question is the negative.

Civil Liabilities Committee

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that the Civil Liabilities Commission are in many needful cases failing to provide rent, taxes, and insurance of soldiers called to the Colours from civil employment, and that in particular Gunner James Forrester, Royal Field Artillery, a man who left a wife and four children, of ages ten, six, four and a-half, and three years, respectively, has been granted only £17 against £31 necessary for rent, taxes, and insurance, that arrears of rent have now accumulated, and that legal proceedings for these are threatened by the house-factors; and will he take any action to stimulate this Commission to more consideration for the financial strain of families left behind by soldiers at the front?

I have been asked by my right hon. Friend to answer this question. I cannot accept the suggestion that full consideration is not given by the Civil Liabilities Committee to the position of the families of men joining the forces or that the assistance granted is inadequate. The particular case to which the hon. Member refers has been fully considered and reconsidered by the Committee. Gunner Forrester has only recently joined the Army. In civil life he was earning £120 a year. As his wife now receives £80 a year as separation allowance, while the man himself is being kept by the Army, the grant of £17 a year is clearly sufficient to prevent any serious hardship resulting from the man joining the forces.

Is the proportion the usual proportion or is it a question of the Committee only paying sufficient?

I think the hon. Member is more qualified to answer that than I am. The Committee reported to me that they had twice reconsidered the question, and they considered it to be sufficient to avoid serious hardship.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is not a question of whether it is sufficient, but as to whether the woman has got three-quarters of her previous income?

Unregistered Dentists

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a memorial signed by nearly 200 Members of Parliament asking that the Departmental Committee on Unregistered Practice in Dentistry should be reconstituted so as to include representatives of unregis- tered practitioners and also a larger representation of Members of the House of Commons; and, if so, whether it is proposed to give the additional representation asked for?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, it is hoped that it may be possible to take action in the direction suggested by the hon. Member, but I can make no definite statement at the present time.

Egypt and Salonika

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether, in view of the Adjournment, he can make any statement as to the military position in Egypt and Palestine; (2) in view of the Adjournment for the Recess and the number of British troops serving, he can make any statement as to the military position in Salonika and as to the health of the troops there; (3) in view of the Adjournment, he can make any statement as to the military position in Mesopotamia, and if any form of civil government has yet been set up in Bagdad?

There is no information which with advantage I could communicate to the House at the present time.

If the Government cannot say anything at present with regard to the Salonika Expedition, will he use his influence with the Press Censor not to allow the Press to make statements from time to time prejudicial to the interests of the force in Macedonia?

I shall call the attention of the proper authorities to the suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend.

Cannot anything be said about the health of the Salonika Force, which is here specifically mentioned?

I should have thought the hon. Member, if he had followed the proceedings of the 9th August, would have been aware that on that date a full and detailed statement was given on that subject.

Tonnage Sunk by Submarines

asked what proportion of the shipping tonnage sunk by enemy submarines and mines since the beginning of February belonged to Allied and neutral countries; whether such proportion has increased in recent months; and whether, and to what extent, such tonnage is being replaced by new ships other than those built in British and American yards?

I regret that I cannot add anything to the statement made by the Prime Minister in the House on Thursday last.

Brewery Dividends

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the fact that the increased dividends distributed to brewery shareholders for last year have to be compared, not with the existing reduced capital of brewing concerns, but with the capital originally invested, and of the fact that the return for last year, which was exceptionally high, is on the average a low return on the original capital invested in the trade, the Government will consider the propriety of further reducing Licence Duties on intoxicating liquor?

The subject dealt with in the question has been recently debated when the Finance Act just passed was before the House, and I can add nothing to what I stated in reply to the hon. Member for Lincoln on the 16th instant.

Irish Divorce Bills

asked whether, having regard to the tax upon redress, amounting to £100 and upwards, imposed upon petitioners for Irish Divorce Bills under Standing Orders, he will take steps to have the fees charged in such cases remitted or the scale largely reduced?

The changes suggested would require a Resolution of Parliament, which the Government is not prepared to introduce.

Corn Storage (Ireland)

asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is in a position to state what steps have been taken to meet the requirements for storage of corn this year?

The Department of Agriculture have ascertained that there is storage accommodation in Ireland for about 800,000 tons of grain. The grain prices Order issued by the Food Controller should serve to induce farmers to stack their grain. The Department and the County Committees of Agriculture have taken steps to impress upon farmers the importance, under existing conditions, of stacking a large proportion of their grain crops. To stack the crops will be of obvious pecuniary advantage, and I hope and expect the advice thus given will be followed where it is possible.

Port and Transit Committee

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he can now make any further statement as to why the Labour representative has resigned from the Port and Transit Committee; and what steps he proposes to take in order to replace this representative?

The Port and Transit Executive Committee received Mr. Gosling's resignation with great regret. They have given very careful consideration to the views expressed in his letter of resignation and, as a result, have suggested certain modifications in the existing machinery for dealing with labour questions arising at the ports. These suggestions, which the Committee have put forward in the hope that they may command the approval of all parties, are now under the consideration of the Government.

Dredging (Ireland)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that in the spring of this year the Department of Agriculture for Ireland agreed to hire their dredger to a harbour company, as had been done in former years, and that this arrangement was subsequently cancelled on the ground of the submarine danger on the passage from the place where it is lying to the harbour; and whether steps will be taken to provide a suitable escort and so prevent a vessel built at the public cost lying idle and enable the harbour, which is of importance to the surrounding district, to be properly maintained?

No information has reached the Admiralty of the circumstances described in my hon. and gallant Friend's question, but if he will supply me with further details of the localities, the Admiralty will of course inquire into the matter and let him know privately.

Patrol Vessels (North Channel)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the motor and other small patrol vessels guarding the entrance to the North Channel do not use an adjacent harbour for the purpose of replenishing fuel and other stores and so save the cost and delay involved in the passage of ninety miles to the base now used for this purpose?

My right hon. Friend the First Lord is making inquiry into this matter.

Loch Goil (Sailing Licences)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he has yet arranged to grant permission to licence private yachts and sailing boats to sail up Loch Goil, either to Lochgoilhead or part of the way up, instead of precluding them from entering that loch, in view of the fact that the fishing ground immediately within the mouth of the loch is most productive of fish at this season of the year?

The existing Regulations allow pleasure boats, yachts, etc., to be under way in any part of Loch Goil for the purpose of hand-line fishing up till one hour after sunset from May to October, inclusive. The rules appear to give the facilities desired.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

asked the Pensions Minister whether Mrs. Mole, widow of Private Sydney J. Mole, No. 15497, Grenadier Guards, who fought in eight battles in France and Flanders from November, 1914, to 10th September, 1916, when he was killed in action, will, under any revised Regulations, be entitled to be paid either the grant of £5 which would have been payable to her if her husband had been killed prior to 1st July, 1916, or the grant of £3 which would have been payable to her had he been killed after 1st April, 1917; and will the widows of soldiers who were killed between 1st July, 1916, and 1st April, 1917, now be entitled to be paid any such grant, and, if so, to what amount?

The gratuity of £5 is payable to the widows of soldiers killed on or after the 1st July, 1916, and as regards deaths notified since the 4th April, 1917, it replaces the gratuity of £3 which was sanctioned by the Warrant of last March. The task of authorising and paying these gratuities is a large one, but it is hoped that Mrs. Mole will receive payment of her gratuity very shortly.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether those who became widows since July, 1916, will get the money sent to them, or will they have to make application?

As to that I really cannot say. If the question is repeated at a later stage I may be able to answer it. So far I cannot, as I only took up my new duties this morning.

Unwounded Officers (Non-Effective Test)

asked how many un-wounded officers holding permanent commissions in the Regular Army are there whose names have been placed upon the non-effective list through disablement due to disease during the present War?

I must ask the hon. and gallant Member to postpone his question until I have been able to make some further inquiry.

asked what ratio to the total number of officers holding permanent commissions in the Regular Army who have been invalided out during the present War is borne by the number of unwounded officers holding permanent commissions in the Regular Army who have been invalided out on account of disablement due to disease?

Air Services

London Anti-Airceaft Stations

asked the Parliamentary Representative of the Air Board whether the conditions of service have been, or are about to be, altered at certain anti-aircraft stations in the London area; if so, whether these altered conditions are such as to involve the discharge of a number of trained men from the Anti-Aircraft Corps; what is the number of men involved, how many are trained gun-layers, and what is their average length of service; whether the efficiency of these men has been admitted by their being urged to volunteer to continue service-under the new conditions, and how many have found it possible to do so; whether the stations concerned have been efficiently manned and satisfactorily carried on under the old conditions; and whether, in order to obtain paper uniformity, he will explain why untrained recruits are substituted for skilled and experienced men?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, but it applies to one gun station and light station only. Several men were anxious to take their discharge, and only those who wished were discharged on: account of the reorganisation. About eighty-four men were involved, of whom fourteen were trained gun-layers of average length of service of two years. The changes in organisation were made as the half-time system for gun numbers did not prove satisfactory. Twelve men availed themselves of the offer to remain on other employment as half-timers. The changes were not made to secure paper uniformity, but to improve the efficiency of the service. The men replacing those on the guns were all trained men.

Questions

Telephone Directory

asked the Postmaster-General whether he has arrived at a decision as to issuing the Telephone Directory at less frequent intervals?

It has been decided, having regard to the shortage of paper and labour, to postpone the issue of the new edition of the Telephone Directory until January next year; and thereafter to issue the Directory at intervals of nine months instead of six, as heretofore.

Nyasaland

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government intends to take any and, if so, what action in respect of the extension of the railway communications in Nyasaland and adjacent territories, and particularly in respect of the extension of the Shiré Highlands Railway northwards to Lake Nyasa from Blantyre, and of the Central African Railway southwards to Beira from the Zambesi?

A survey has already been made for the extension of the Shiré Highlands Railway to Lake Nyasa, but it is impossible at present to say what route will be adopted and when funds, material and staff for construction can be obtained. The extension of the Central African Railway to Beira would lie in Portuguese territory, and I am not in a position to say anything on the subject.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Government adheres to the policy of encouraging the cultivation of cotton by natives of Europe and natives of Africa in Nyasaland; whether such policy has been pursued with successful results; and, if so, whether he will take any steps which may under present circumstances be practicable to provide the Protectorate with tonnage for the export of its cotton and, as an even more immediate necessity, of its tobacco in order that the success of such policy may not be seriously impaired and the traders and others concerned be put to serious and irreparable loss?

The answer to the first two parts of my hon. Friend's question is in the affirmative. The disposal of cotton grown in Nyasaland and other parts of tropical Africa is receiving the earnest consideration of the Government, and I hope that an arrangement may be possible which will prevent any set-back to the industry. I have been and am still in communication with the Shipping Controller as to tobacco and other Nyasaland produce, and I trust that it may be found possible, consistently with the other demands on shipping space, to relieve the situation.

Seizure of Rifles (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if seizures of rifles have been made during the past week from. Nationalists in county Down; whether similar seizures have been made of the rifles which are known to be in the possession of Unionists; and, if not, whether he can say why the law is not impartially administered in Ulster and throughout Ireland?

Two hundred and forty-three rifles and 175 bayonets were seized in county Down last week. The political opinions of the people who had them in charge were not the cause of the seizure. The competent military authority was satisfied that there was danger of their coming into unsafe hands, and if the same conditions should arise with regard to any other weapons capable of military use, whether in Ulster or the rest of Ireland, he may be relied upon, I believe, to take all necessary precautions to deal with the risk.

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman answer the second part of the question, which asks whether similar seizures have been made of the rifles which are known to be in the possession of the Unionists?

( by Private Notice )asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state why the National Volunteers' rifles only have been seized; parochial halls and institutes broken into without notice; whether armoured cars and war equipment are being imported into Ireland; whether he can give the name of the competent military authority advising such provocative measures; and whether he is aware that those proceedings have aroused much indignation?

The first part of the question has been dealt with by an answer given this afternoon to the hon. and learned Member for South Down. I am told that premises were not forcibly entered unless the person who had control of them refused to give access or to deliver up arms. The transfer of army equipment of various kinds between Ireland and Great Britain is regulated entirely by the military authorities, and I am confident that the General Officer Commanding in Ireland, Sir Bryan Mahon, does not advise or take provocative measures, and that his conduct in the performance of his duties is not likely to give any just ground for adverse comment.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state how it was possible for a man in charge of a parochial hall or institute, without being asked, to give permission to enter it, and is it not a fact that the halls were broken into without permission?

I do not know whether the hon. Member caught my reply on that subject. It was that the premises were not forcibly entered unless the persons who had charge of them refused to give access or to deliver up any arms which were there.

How does it come to pass, since these rifles have been allowed to remain in the hands of the National Volunteers ever since the rising in Easter week, that the Government has changed its mind with regard to leaving these men still in possession of these rifles; has any danger occurred from that fact, and were not these rifles in the hands of men who were considered safe?

The question was whether the rifles were likely to remain in safe hands. My advisers considered that probably they would not.

Peat Fuel Factory, France

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the steps taken by the War Department in connection with the peat fuel factory to be erected in France have been such as to ensure that the best and most economical method of treating peat with a view to its economic dehydration has been selected; whether the general knowledge available as to the workability or failure to work particular processes has been given due consideration, especially the official literature on this point published by the Canadian Bureau of Mines, the Bureau of Mines of the United States, the Records of the Swedish Government, and other analogous data have been given due weight, and, if departed from, will he state the reasons; whether the reports of the Admiralty on peat proposition have been taken into consideration and acted upon by the War Department; whether reliable assurances have been forthcoming that peat fuel will be produced during this winter from the factory intended to be erected for supply to the trenches; and, if not, the earliest date on which such supply will be given?

Yes, Sir; the War Department consulted the Ministry of Munitions and received a satisfactory report. With regard to the second part of my hon. Friend's question, the Department is in communication with the Ministry of Munitions. No reports have been received from the Admiralty on the matter. As regards the last part of the question, no assurances have been or can be made. The date of delivery of supply depends upon many factors, such as the supply of machinery, material, and labour, which under present conditions it is impossible to estimate with any certainty. Every endeavour is being made to obtain a supply at the earliest possible date, but it is very doubtful whether the factory can be in operation during the coming winter.

Can the hon. Gentleman hold out any hope of beginning within the next twelve months?

Army Pay Department

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if the Army Pay Department have dismissed a number of girls who came from various parts of Ireland some months ago, some of whom left permanent positions in order to undertake these duties; that no fault was found with their work, but the reason given was that their positions were required for disabled soldiers; that some of these girls are penniless; and why they were not trans- ferred to some other Government Department or given adequate notice of their impending dismissal?

I have no information on this subject, but I will have inquiries made into cases of which my hon. Friend will give me the particulars.

Distinguished Services in the Field (Awards)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the honours of D.S.O. and M.C. are only intended to be given for service in the field, he will consider whether, when these honours are given, a clear statement should be made out for what service they are actually bestowed?

With the exception of services in the United Kingdom in connection with air raids, coastal bombardments, etc., no Distinguished Service Order or Military Cross has been conferred otherwise than for services in the field on the recommendation of the commander-in-chief concerned. A clear statement as to the services for which recommended is submitted in every case, and in the case of immediate awards these statements are published in the Press in due course. It is not, however, possible to publish the statements of services of awards conferred in the half-yearly "Gazettes" on account of the clerical labour involved.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that officers have to leave the Staff and go back to their own regiments in order to escape from decorations to which they feel that they are not entitled?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this matter is felt very deeply in the Army, and will he consider the possibility of making a distinction between those D.S.O.'s and M.C.'s which are given for good service in the field and those which are given for gallantry in action by following the precedent of the V.C. and allowing a rosette to be worn on the ribbon by those winning them in action?

Is it not the case that many of these Distinguished Service Orders have been given to men who have never been in the fighting line? According to the answer, "service in the field," I suppose, means men who have been on the Headquarters Staff and have never gone near the front.

Loss of S.S. "Cameronia."

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the officers who sailed in the "Cameronia" last April going out to India have been compensated for the loss of their kit: if not, can he say whether they will be compensated; and, if so, when?

The officers concerned were instructed to submit claims for compensation for lost kit on arrival at their destinations. I am not aware to what extent claims have been submitted in India or Mesopotamia and have been paid, but their submission and examination would necessarily be a matter of some time.

I am afraid that I cannot say. Obviously, communication is very difficult. They have a right to compensation for their loss, and instructions have been given to that effect.

Women's Army Auxiliary Corps

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the A.C.I. 1,069, authorising the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps, states that railway half-fare vouchers for members going on leave will not be admissible; whether this is the only service of the Army which does not get this privilege; and whether, as the women who join this service are making great sacrifices in giving up civil life in responding to this call, he will explain why the same privilege is not extended to them?

Half-fare vouchers for leave are not issued to members of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps serving in the United Kingdom. The concession is limited to enlisted soldiers and nursing sisters.

I understand that the members of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps serving abroad do get it.

If the nursing sisters get it, why should not the auxiliary sisters get it?

London Engineer Volunteers

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that the 1st London Engineer Volunteers were formed in May, 1915, at the request of General Sir O'Moore Creagh, but obtained recognition only on 7th March, 1917; that till now the corps have been unable to obtain from Government any definite establishment or statement as to the work it should undertake and that therefore it has not been possible to appoint an adjutant; that, owing to its original premises having been requisitioned it was forced to fit up new premises in Baldeston Street at heavy expense; that no capitation grant or grant for clothing has been given by the Government, and that, except an allowance of £15 by the Territorial Force Association and occasional warrants for travel, no Government assistance has been given; that in response to applications for rifles one was lent for instructional purposes and has had to be returned; that requests for engineering stores and equipment have been refused; that the Government having taken no notice of an application made in April that the payment of the two regular instructors employed at private cost should be taken over by the Government notice has had to be given to the engineering instructor; that application made in April for commissions has resulted in the junior officer alone receiving one; and that as a result of all this treatment dissatisfaction exists in the corps, which now numbers about 350; and whether he is prepared to take the steps necessary to prevent the break up of the corps, which otherwise it will be impossible to prevent?

I regret the delay which has occurred in formulating a scheme for the employment of these men. The question as to how their services can be utilised to the best advantage depends on military considerations, which require time for investigation, but I hope that a decision may be reached shortly.

Does the right hon. Gentleman know that this corps has been embodied for two years? Surely it ought to have been possible during two years to have ascertained how their services could be utilised.

Prisoners of War (Officers Allowances and Deductions)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether £3 a month in the case of lieutenants and £5 a month in the case of captains and officers of higher rank is deducted from the pay of our officers who are prisoners of war in Germany; whether such sums are transmitted by the British Government to the German Government to be paid to such officers; whether, at the current rate of exchange, £3 is equivalent to 110 marks and £5 to somewhat over 183 marks; whether the sums paid by the German Government to our officer prisoners of war are 60 marks a month in the case of lieutenants and 100 marks a month in the case of captains and officers of higher rank; and whether the German Government pockets the difference between the 110 marks and the 60 marks and between the 183 marks and the 100 marks respectively?

The answers to the five parts of my hon. and learned Friend's question are as follow:

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what sums in British currency are paid by the British Government to German prisoners of war per month in the case of lieutenants and in the case of captains and officers of higher rank, respectively; and what is the equivalent in German marks at the current rate of exchange of such sums, respectively; what number of marks are transmitted by the German Government in respect of the sums so paid by the British Government; and whether the German Government gets the benefit and the British Government bears the loss of the difference between the sums paid in British currency by the British Government to these German prisoners and the sums paid in marks by the German Government in respect of these prisoners?

The answers to the four parts of my hon. and learned Friend's question are as follow:

Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen

Threatened Strike

( by Private Notice ): I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can make any statement to the House on the railway situation?

Since I made a statement in this House on Wednesday last I have been in further communication with the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen. On Friday evening the General Secretary of the Society called upon me and intimated that the delegates had decided that, unless their demand that the principle of an eight hour day should be recognised now were acceded to within twenty-four hours, a strike should be ordered. I told him that I was willing to meet the delegates if they wished and put the case before them from the point of view of the national interests.

On Saturday morning I attended a meeting with the delegates, and my right hon. Friend the Member for the Black-friars Division of Glasgow (Mr. Barnes) accompanied me. We put to the delegates, to the best of our ability, the impossibility of granting their demand and the seriousness of the effect a strike would have upon the conduct of the War and the life of the nation, and I gave a pledge on behalf of the Government that the control of the railways would be retained for a time after peace was declared, so that if, on the cessation of hostilities, a request for a shorter working day for railwaymen were put forward, the matter could be dealt with during the continuance of that control.

I further pledged the Government that if this course were adopted any reasonable request for a shorter working day would receive sympathetic consideration.

Also, on Saturday a proclamation was made under the Munitions of War Act, 1915, applying the provisions of Part I. of that Act to the dispute. The effect of this is that the dispute can, if the Society so desire, be referred to the Ministry of Labour for settlement by arbitration, and that a strike would be illegal, and that it would be illegal for any funds to be expended in support of a strike. I have already taken steps to bring to the notice of the trustees and authorities of the Society their personal responsibilities in this matter.

Yesterday, at their request, I saw the Executive Committee of the Society and repeated to them the pledge I had already given. This is the present position as far as I know it. I am sorry that I cannot give a more satisfactory account, but I think I have left nothing undone that could be done by me in a very difficult matter.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman's inference tend to show that only a very small fraction even of the men who are in the association concerned will think of following the unpatriotic advice given them by their leaders?

Troops (Leave)

( by Private Notice )asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is in a position to state what are the prospects of additional leave being given to the troops now serving at the front?

Arrangements have been made to grant additional leave to soldiers serving at the front, but in the event of a railway strike taking place this additional leave, as well as the ordinary leave, would have to be stopped.

National Insurance

Amending Legislation

( by Private Notice )asked the Comptroller of the Household, as representing the National Health Insurance Commissioners, when the Bill for carrying out the recommendations contained in the Reports of the Departmental Committee on Approved Society Finance and Administration, 1916, will be submitted to Parliament?

A Bill has been prepared, after discussion with the Advisory Committee, dealing with the simplification of the administration and adjusting the finance of national health insurance on the lines of the recommendations referred to in the question. I am aware of the keen desire of the approved societies that this amending legislation should be obtained as soon as possible, and I trust that, in these circumstances, the Bill may be regarded as non-controversial. In that event the Government would hope it could be possible for the Bill to be submitted to Parliament and passed into law in the course of the Autumn Session.

Questions

Land Purchase

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been directed to the case referred to in paragraph 40 of the recent Report from the Committee of Public Accounts relating to the payment in 1912 of £70,000 as purchase money for a property of some 2,000 acres and to the compensations therein mentioned; whether that property had changed hands, and, if so, at what price, within the five years preceding the date of that purchase; and what had been taken as the gross value of it in valuations under Part I. of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910?

My attention has not previously been drawn to the case referred to. Valuations made under Part I. of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, have always been treated as confidential, and particulars concerning them are disclosed only to persons interested in the land under the provisions of Section 30 (2) of the Act.

Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the part of the question that asks whether the property has changed hands within the five years preceding the date of purchase and at what price, and would he make inquiries?

I shall make inquiries, but as the property is not specially mentioned it is not an easy thing to do.

National Education, Ireland (Junior Inspectors)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has considered the request that the number of years served as national teachers shall be taken into account as regards the pension claims of the junior inspectors employed by the National Board; and whether, in view of the fact that twenty-two out of the full staff of thirty-three served on an average about ten years as national teachers before being promoted to the position of junior inspectors, he can state what decision has been come to?

The Pension Fund of the national teachers is a fund to which they contribute under a code of rules which regulates both contributions and pensions, and is not at present a public fund. A school inspector is a member of the Civil Service entitled to the advantages of the Superannuation Acts. It is obviously not possible to transfer moneys from the Pensions Fund for the purpose of supplementing the superannuation allowances of inspectors. I will try during the Recess to ascertain whether this difficulty can be overcome, but I cannot at present hold out any hope that it can.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

War Loan Bill,

Workmen's Compensation (War Addition) Bill,

Glasgow Boundaries Act (1912) Amendment Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment,

Corn Production Bill,

Munitions of War bill, with Amendments.

Corn Production Bill

Lords Amendments to be printed. [Bill 92.]

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

May I ask the Leader of the House what business the Government propose to take on the first day after the Adjournment?

On the first day we propose only to take two Bills—the Second Reading of the Petroleum (Production) Bill and the Titles Deprivation Bill.

For the rest of the week we propose to proceed with the Representation of the People Bill.

Does my right hon. Friend expect that the Redistribution Schedules will be ready by that time?

Yes; my right hon. Friend does expect that.

Resolved, "That this House do meet To-morrow at Twelve of the clock."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

Corn Production Bill

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."—[ Mr. Prothero. ]

I propose to state the general policy which the Government will adopt towards the Lords Amendments before us. There are three main Amendments. The first alters the tribunal for fixing in the first instance minimum rates of wages, the second allows the employers to make contracts with workmen, which are rendered valid by subsequent confirmation by the wages committee, and the third is a right of appeal in certain cases to an arbitrator where good husbandry is involved or where any change in the use of land is made so far as relates to particular parcels or portions of that land. With regard to the first Amendment, as the Bill stood, the Wages Board fixed the wages on the report and recommendation of the district wages committees. The Lords Amendment proposes, on the other hand, that the district wages committee, the body with the most adequate local knowledge, should provisionally fix the rates of wages and that those rates should not be valid until they are confirmed and approved by the Central Wages Board, which may return to the district committee the rates they provisionally fixed and require them to be amended, and in case of any deadlock between the two bodies the ultimate arbitration rests with the Central Wages Board. The difference between fixing rates of wages on the report and recommendation of the district wages committee and the district wages committee provisionally fixing the rates of wages seems to be very small, and there are obvious advantages in favour of stimulating the activity and interest of district wages committees. On the other hand, especially in the initiatory stages of this question, there is something which is not secured by leaving the provisional fixing of wages to district committees, and that is the strong, uniform, consistent pressure of a central wages body, and though there are great advantages in favour of the Lords Amendment on this subject, and though I regard it as a useful attempt to improve the Bill, and though if labour were more independent and better organised I should be strongly in favour of it, yet we have decided to ask the House to disagree with the Lords Amendment.

The second Amendment would also in other circumstances be a useful improvement to the Bill. One of the great difficulties we shall have to face will be this. An employer has in his employment a number of men who cannot earn the wages of an able-bodied workman, and to compel them in their very large numbers to go before the Wages Board to get permits, which is the provision in the Bill as it stands, may impose upon them some hardship and difficulty. Therefore, the Lords propose that the employer should be allowed to contract with his workmen for lower rates of wages than the minimum fixed and submit that contract to the district wages committee, stating the reason why each individual workman is not to be considered able-bodied, and at the same time stating the rate of wages agreed upon between the employer and the employed. That system was not to be in substitution for the permit system which we have in the Bill, but it was to be an alternative. Obviously, if the employer had that power, it would greatly facilitate this Bill coming in practical operation, but, on the other hand there is a danger. In the first instance the workman is left face to face with his employer. He is not organised and he is not possessed of the independence which organisation gives, and we feel that it is a somewhat dangerous step to take to leave to the district committee not the initiation of the bargain between the contracting parties, not the settlement of its principal terms, but the ratification of a bargain already made between the two contracting parties, and we have reluctantly felt obliged to ask the House of Commons to disagree with the Lords Amendment.

4.0 P.M.

The third point is a question of appeal from the directions given by the Board of Agriculture with a view to increasing the food production of the country in the national interest. Those directions may be of two sorts. In one case you may say to a farmer, "You are cultivating your land badly. You ought to have a different proportion of arable and pasture, or part of the land which you have in pasture ought to be arable, and vice versâ. " In that case the Lords propose that there should be an appeal to an arbitrator under the same terms as the Agricultural Holdings Act, and that the question submitted should be, "Are these directions of the Board consistent with the rules of good husbandry?" The second part of the Lords Amendment refers to this. On grounds of national policy the Board of Agriculture orders certain things to be done. It orders, let us say, grass to be ploughed up, it orders that no mustard shall be grown for seed, it orders that hop gardens shall be grubbed and applied to other purposes. The Lords Amendment suggests that the appeal should not be allowed on the question of national policy—that, I think, is admitted to be a question which cannot be submitted to arbitration—but on the narrow question whether this or that parcel or portion of land is fit to be adapted to the purposes to which it is directed to be put. That is the sole question, which is to be the subject of appeal. We have gone very carefully into this question. The House knows that landowners have accepted during the past few months the most drastic interference with their powers, and that these interferences will be continued during the next year under the Defence of the Realm Act. Now we are providing for more peaceful times—times when we can go at a more leisurely and deliberate pace with due regard to the rights which other people have in their property, and we think that the House would be wise to agree with the Lords-Amendment on the subject of appeal, limited as it is in the direction I have indicated. National policy remains outside the question of appeal.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain that rather more fully? It is not at all clear on the face of the Amendment. Clause B is, I think the new Clause to which the right hon. Gentleman is referring, and that says:

"Arbitrations under this part of this Act shall be before a single arbitrator."

That would seem to some of us to apply equally not only, to proviso (A) in the Amendment which the Lords have made, which says:

"That any land is not being cultivated according to the rules of good husbandry,

which the right hon. Gentleman says it applies to, but also to paragraph (b):—

"That for the purpose of increasing in the national interest the production of food the mode of cultivating any land or the use to which any land is being" put should be changed."

That seems to us to lay open to that arbitration the question of what is really desirable and reasonable in the interests of increasing the national food supply. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will explain how that is withdrawn altogether from the purview of the arbitrator.

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would also deal with the proviso in the Lords Amendment, which says:

"Provided that if any person on whom any notice is served under this Section is aggrieved by the notice he may within the prescribed time require the question whether the land has been cultivated according to the rules of good husbandry, or whether it is undesirable in the interest of food production that the charge should apply to any portion of the land included in the notice,"

to be referred to arbitration. Will the right hon. Gentleman deal with the second part which is left to the arbitrator?

Those were the two points I was going to deal with. The Amendment is whether it is undesirable in the interest of food production that a change should apply to any portion of the land included in the notice. That is a restriction upon the rights of appeal, not on the question of policy, but on the question whether any portion of the land to which the notice applies ought not to be cultivated in the manner specified. Take, for instance, this sort of a case. There may be a field under grass which is included in the larger portion and is directed to be ploughed up. The farmer may know either by experience or by tradition that that particular field the moment it is ploughed up is covered with obnoxious and ineradicable weeds. We all know cases where that has happened. Then there is right of appeal to an arbitrator to say that that portion of land to which the general notice applied should not be ploughed up. Limited in that way, I think that this power of appeal will be useful, and will not prejudice the campaign for increasing food production in the way that we all desire.

Of the three statements made by the right hon. Gentleman, I clearly followed the first two; while with regard to the third, I confess that it is so technical a matter that probably we shall desire to have a little further explanation when we come to deal with the specific Amendment. As regards the statement made, that he proposes to ask the House to disagree with two of the Lords Amendments, I think those who have followed with sympathy the fortunes of this Bill both inside and outside the House will be very glad at the decision at which the Government have arrived. My right hon. Friend has told us that he proposes that we should return in the first place to the scheme which the Government themselves put in the Bill and recommended to the House, the scheme, namely, that the body that fixes the rates of agricultural wages should be a centralised body, speaking with authority and knowledge which can be derived from the country as a whole. That was, I believe, a decision arrived at after a great deal of inquiry and consideration, and one which commended itself to this House. I believe it has commended itself generally to those who have been interested in this question, and it is in strict accordance with the provisions of the Trade Boards Act in a similar regard. It would appear to me that if you are going to bring the influence of those who have paid and have received a reasonable and fair rate of wages upon the areas where the wages have not been so satisfactory, it is essential to provide for this more centralised method of dealing with the question. There is this further consideration, which many of us who are interested in the subject of rural housing think important, and that is that the minimum wage to be fixed in the area, whatever it is, is a wage which is to include, or ought to include, the economic rent of a cottage, and in order to arrive at that element in the minimum wage it is supremely important that you should bring into play those forces of information and calculation which you really only get in a centralised body. To take the other course would, it seems to me—and I am very glad the Government take this view—expose the labourer where he is least organised and where he is worse paid to a very inferior chance of bettering his condition, and would deny him that to which he is entitled, namely, the experience, advice and guidance of those who, in other parts of the country, have realised that it is possible to make farming pay even if the wages are rather higher.

As regards the second of the three questions mentioned by my right hon. Friend, I understand him to say that he will recommend the House not to accept a proposal which, on the face of it, has a good deal to recommend it, that in the case of non-able-bodied labourers there might be some further development of what is in fact a system of contracting out. I think my right hon. Friend has explained very clearly why he thinks that, at any rate, on the initiation of a system such as this it is not desirable to take that course. I hope, as regards these two proposals, we may accept the objections taken by the Government without any prolonged debate. As regards the third matter, I confess frankly that I do not follow it very closely. It is certainly a much more technical and more difficult question, and one upon which there may have to be further discussion.

I congratulate the Government on having refused the first two Amendments Suggested, and I think they would never have been suggested in another place if it had been fully realised that we had a compromise on this wage question already. I think it has quite escaped the notice of many people that the 25s. a week was originally, in many of our minds, a sum which ought to be the minimum wage exclusive of all other questions, and it was only by a compromise in this House that we accepted the Bill as it stood. I think if it had been realised in another place that that was the case, there would not have been any suggestion of whittling down this 25s. a week by any local committees or by taking away from the central body the absolute power of keeping wages up to a fair weekly wage. That being so, I think the Government has taken the only course possible on the question of these weekly wages, and I congratulate them upon keeping a firm hand and in refusing to have any contracting out as far as possible. I am sorry to say that I do not agree with the President of the Board of Agriculture in regard to the third question I do not see that there ought to be an appeal against the Board of Agriculture in regard to this question of cultivation. I quite realise that there may be a field in regard to which the local committee has made a mistake, but the farmer has an opportunity of complaining and making his appeal to the local committee, who know a good deal more about the local conditions and about that particular field than an arbitrator will know. Therefore, I do not see that he has got any real grievance. On the other hand, I do see that if you have an appeal from the Board of Agriculture it means weakening the central authority on this most important question of getting the utmost out of the land. Having said that I disagree with the view taken, I must admit that there is one mitigating point which I do not think has been made clear by the right hon. Gentleman. He has said that for the next year this would not come into force because they were dealing with the question under the Defence of the Realm Act. I am not quite satisfied with that. It certainly goes some way to meet it, but if one looks at the Bill as printed in this House, Sub-section (10) of Clause 9 stipulates that

"The powers conferred by this Part of this Act shall not be exercisable so long as the powers exercisable by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries with a view to maintaining the food supply of the country under the Defence of the Realm Regulations remain in force."

I understood that they were to remain in force for the whole of the War, but I am sorry to hear that that has been altered in another place. If they were acting under the Defence of the Realm Act for the whole period of the War there would be some cause for further delay in this matter, but if it is going to be limited to one year—

May I interrupt for one moment. The Lords Amendments provides that it shall cease to operate at the expiration of one year from the passing of this Act or at the termination of the present War, whichever is the earlier.

That is how I understood it, but my hon. and learned Friend interrupted me and said that the Lords had altered it. If it is to be only for one year I object to it. If the President of the Board of Agriculture will tell us that there is no question about the alteration of this and that we shall be under the Defence of the Realm Act on this point until the end of the War, I think that we may overlook the defects of this Amendment which would only come into force after the War was over. It all depends on that point on which I would like an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman.

I do not find myself in agreement with the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Baronet who have just spoken. The House know that we are now discussing this question on the statement of the President, although we are not in possession of any of the arguments that were put forward in another place for these Amendments in Committee. The prints of the Debate in another place in Committee are not in the hands of hon. Members, and were not obtainable a quarter of an hour ago, but those hon. Members who have read the speeches in the Debates on the Second Reading, whatever view they may take of the Bill and of the Lords Amendment, can, I think, come to no other conclusion than that the speeches made showed an impartial and wide knowledge of the whole of this great agricultural problem and an impartial attitude with regard to it which contrast very favourably with some of the Debates—I do not say all —that we have had in this House and in Committee on the Bill. Before the House commits itself to approval of what the right hon. Gentleman has stated, it would be as well at any rate that they should be cognisant of what Lord Selborne said in another place on the Second Reading on the first of these questions. Lord Selborne has always been a strong advocate of this Bill. He has not been in precise agreement with many of the Noble Lords who take a deep interest in agriculture on every aspect of the Bill, but he has always strongly supported it. On this question of the initiation of the Wages Board this is what Lord Selborne said:

It was freely conceded in another place that the local decisions by those who know the local circumstances who represented both employers and employed must be subject to the authority of a central board of some sort which would coordinate their decisions and prevent—as one Noble Lord, Lord Selborne I think, said—there being any very divergent rate of wages fixed in two adjoining counties, such as Wiltshire and Dorsetshire. That is all in the Lords Amendment. In my view far from disapproving, as some hon. Members seem to do of the decision which was arrived at, considering the extraordinary limitation of time, with an enormous amount of deliberation by men who know, if there are any men in the country who know agricultural conditions. I think that that decision should not be lightly brushed aside in the manner in which it seems to have been so far in this brief Debate. With regard to the second point dealt with by the President, as to these non-able bodied men, frankly, if he dismisses the idea of the local wages committee settling in the first instance the local wages, I cannot understand how all these people are to be dealt with, and what it really amounts to is expressed by what Lord Selborne said on this question:

On the question of appeal, with reference to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow that he did not follow completely the argument of the President of the Board of Agriculture, I feel, perhaps, that I am in the unenviable position of rushing in where angels fear to tread. I would say only one word. It does seem to me there, again, that a properly balanced and workable provision has been made. The broad principle and policy of the Board of Agriculture are secured, and their working with regard to particular local conditions is subject to an appeal. The question, which is rather confused in the Bill, divides definitely in the Lords Amendment into two Sub-sections ( a ) and ( b ). The first deals with the question of negligent cultivation. There, again, it is only fair that the farmer concerned should have the right to some appeal. Someone comes down from the Board of Agriculture and says that a farm or portion of it is being negligently cultivated. As that is a matter of opinion and not a question for the Law Courts, it is a question for an agricultural expert as an arbitrator to decide, as was explained in another place. The other question is a totally different one. It may be frankly admitted by the representative of the Board that, suppose the farm or portion of it is under grass, that it is excellent grass, free from weeds and thistles, and is good pasture, but in the opinion of the expert it would be better applied to arable cultivation. There, again, you have the same point. With regard to any individual field or fields it is in the interest of the very policy of the Board that they should not make mistakes. They will in one way or another have to pay for any mistakes and the country will have to pay for any mistakes which they make, and therefore surely it is wise to allow the opportunity of an appeal with regard to the operation in detailed matters such as that is, and to protect the Board from what may very likely be a costly experiment. I should have liked to hear that the President was prepared to accept all the Lords main Amendment, but I am pleased to hear that he is prepared to accept one of them.

I was glad to hear the President of the Board of Agriculture say he was going to accept the third of "the principal Amendments which the Lords have set up, and I hope that he will not be in any way shaken in his determination to do that by the speech of the hon. Baronet or anyone else who may get up, because it is most important that this appeal should be given to the occupiers of land. The hon. Baronet stated that the appeal was not necessary, because the farmers or occupiers had an opportunity of making representations when the committees inspected the land, but if the Act is going to be worked on the same basis as the Defence of the Realm Act is been worked at the present moment, it does not follow at all that the owners or occupiers are consulted by the committees. I can give cases in which the committees have come to inspect land without giving any adequate notice, or sometimes any notice at all, to the occupiers or owners of land. A report might be made without the owner or occupier having any opportunity of putting forward his view of the case, and in those circumstances, certainly, it is necessary that the occupier should have an opportunity of appeal. An enormous amount of work is thrown on the county committee composed of eight or ten members, who have to inspect the whole county. They rush round from farm to farm, and really it seems as if they have not time to. hear what the occupier may say as to whether or not the land is suitable for the kind of cultivation required. Besides that, there are other considerations which have to be taken into account, namely, whether the occupier has the facilities for growing corn, whether he has accommodation, and the necessary buildings, and housing for those to be employed. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the case of appeal where the occupier thinks the land is unsuitable for the growing of corn, but surely other considerations enter into the subject, such as whether there is the necessary accommodation for making manure, and all the other facilities necessary if the land is to be broken up. It is conceivable that the occupier, though anxious to do so, may not be able to get the necessary accommodation, the housing required for the men employed, or stabling for the horses. I hope that where there are reasons of that kind advanced, the House will see that some appeal is essential. I for one regret that this important measure has been rushed through both Houses in the way it has. Much of the good that this Bill might have done has been not only minimised but negatived altogether, and I am very doubtful of the result, for, it would appear, that there is to be interference with everybody's business by somebody else, without any advantage being gained.

On the question of the first of the three Amendments, as to the district wages system adopted by this House, or that suggested by the House of Lords, I give my strong support to the line taken by the Government. I usually agree in most agricultural questions with my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto), but I want to put to him, and others who take similar views, this consideration: One of the difficulties that will have to be considered as a matter of policy by the Government in this country, in the year immediately succeeding the War, will be that to which reference was made by the right hon. Member for Walthamstow, namely, the question of housing. It is one of the most extraordinarily difficult problems that can possibly be dealt with. I believe practically every Member of this House is convinced that there will be no real solution of the housing question until we get economic rents, and by that I mean rents which will at least leave no loss on the cost of erecting the buildings and buying the land, and so on. Until we get to that position private enterprise will continue to be deterred in rural districts, as in the past, from building. We want houses to be built freely by private enterprise, and to effect that object it is essential to have an economic rent. An economic rent immediately after the War, after allowing for every deduction, will be something like 8s. a week, as contrasted with the low rents in the rural districts over the whole of the southern half of England, where the wages are anything up to under 30s. a week. Building prices will not fall rapidly, the price of money will not fall rapidly, the price of material will not fall rapidly, and under these circumstances I submit that we want a central guiding hand over the whole minimum wages question, and it should always be present to the mind that the great object is to get wages gradually up to a point which will enable economic rents to be paid. There is only one further argument I wish to advance on that point, and it is an argument derived from experience. This proposal of an agricultural minimum wage is based on the precedent of the Trade Boards Act. Under that Act there was established a Central Board, with district committees making recommendations to it. As a matter of experience, it has been found that these district committees in unorganised trades are weak, that they do not do much, and that the great progress which we all know has in fact been made under the Trade Boards Act is entirely due to the Central Board. I believe that experience is likely to be repeated in the case of agriculture.

On the second of the two wages questions, the proposals which appear on page 3 of the Paper containing the Lords Amendment, entitled in the margin "Special Provisions as to Non Able-bodied Workmen." I confess the impression on my mind is rather in favour of the position taken up by the Lords, but it is not one upon which I think it is possible to express a confident opinion. I see good arguments both ways. My own view is that the Lords proposal would have been more elastic than that of this House, and possibly would work better in practice, for the reason that it would save a man applying from the kind of stigma which to a certain extent he would have to face in order to get a certificate of exemption. For these reasons I should prefer to adopt that proposal, but I could not vote against the Government on such a ground as that. The third question, I think, is one of importance—the question of good cultivation. Looking at page 4 of the Lords Amendment, it appears that at the beginning of the Clause they have inserted the following Amendment:

"If in any case they are of opinion" —that is, the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—

"Provided that if any person on whom any notice is served under this Section is aggrieved by the notice, he may within the prescribed time require the question whether the land has been cultivated according to the rules of good husbandry, or whether it is undesirable in the interests of food production that the change should apply to any portion of the land included in the notice to be referred to arbitration in accordance with this Part of this Act, and where any question is so referred to arbitration no action shall be taken for enforcing the directions given by the Board until the determination of the reference, or except in accordance with the terms of the award, and where the person on whom any notice is served is a tenant, the landlord shall have the same right as the tenant of requiring any question to be referred to arbitration."

To put that provision quite shortly, two different types of questions may be referred to arbitration, and I want the House to remember that arbitration is a judicial business. It is not a question of policy; it is a question of judicial decision on certain facts of a given kind. For example, where you have the question whether a farm is kept in a reasonably clean state, that is a question of good husbandry, a question of fact, a perfectly proper question to leave to arbitration to be decided by a man of expert knowledge. But the other question, it seems to me, is a question which is not one of that character.

Because I think, in the language used in the other place, there are two questions involved. Let us look at that. The question on which arbitration may be asked for may be, "Whether it is undesirable in the interests of food production that the change should apply to any portion of the land included in the notice?" The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture put emphasis on the word "portion," but as a lawyer I very gravely doubt whether that is the only interpretation that can be put upon the whole sentence, and I think that the question whether it is desirable or not in the interests of food production that such a course should be embarked upon is a question of policy, and all questions of policy, it seems to me, ought to be retained in the hands of the executive Government for the purpose of enabling this House and the other House to keep control. That policy ought to be controlled here and not left to arbitration. What I suggest to the right ton. Gentleman on that is that some words might be inserted in the phrase which I have quoted for the purpose of making it quite clear that we are only leaving to the arbitrator the purely subordinate question as to whether, from the point of view of successful farming, the Board feel that the land ought to be more usefully employed in a certain way, assuming as the first premise that the question of policy has been settled by the Government. If, for instance, the policy is to increase the total quantity of wheat produced in this country, and assuming that this policy requires a certain amount of land in order to carry it out, which land is to be used with a view to improving the wheat supply of the country, that is a question of policy. But the question whether one field rather than another field is best for that purpose, is a question of good farming. For instance, supposing the local body says, "We want to have that field ploughed up." The farmer says, "That field is always under flood in February; you cannot plough it up." That is a question of good cultivation, and that might perfectly well be submitted to arbitration. The right hon. Gentleman accepts this Amendment, but he might do so subject to a minor alteration, by introducing some words into the particular phrase which I have quoted to meet the view I have put forward. I have an Amendment on the Paper to omit those words altogether, but I have not thought out the words that would meet the view I have laid before the House. I think we should bear in mind that under the provisions of the Bill the Board of Agriculture can delegate its powers. In the Bill as sent back from the Lords Sub-section (2) of Clause 12 says:

"The Board may with respect to any area consisting of one or more counties or county boroughs, authorise any body of persons constituted in the prescribed manner, to exercise on behalf of the Board, subject to such appeal to the Board as may be prescribed, any of the powers of the Board under this Part of this Act."

Under that provision the Board can delegate it powers under Part IV. to a local body, such as the War Agricultural Committee of the county council, acting under rules prescribed by the Board, which have to be laid on the Table of this House. That body, if it makes an order, is subject to an appeal, by the person who feels aggrieved, to the Board of Agriculture. I think in considering these provisions, we have to remember that there is that additional power of appeal from the local body to the Board of Agriculture as well as the power contained in the Lords Amendments of Arbitration, subject to the provisions of the Agricultural Holdings Act.

I have not anticipated the question precisely in that form, but I was just going to deal with the point underlying the question. The Board, I imagine, in order to carry out the provisions of that Clause, would appoint a panel of experts to deal with questions of that kind, and as they are questions of agricultural policy a procedure of that kind would, I imagine, be very suitable and would work in practice.

In supporting the argument which has just been addressed to the House by the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division (Mr. L. Scott), may I suggest on this Amendment, proposed by the House of Lords in reference to the appeal, that some words of this kind might meet the case. The words of the Lords Amendment which were read by the hon. and learned Member for the Exchange Division,

"or whether it is undesirable in the interests of food production that the change should apply to any portion of the land included in the notice. …"

I confess that the interpretation put upon those words by the President of the Board of Agriculture had not occurred to me. Therefore, I cannot but think that they may be ambiguous to other persons besides. What I understand him to do is only to suggest that a portion of the land may conceivably be excluded from the notice given by the Board of Agriculture. Would it not be possible to turn round the sentence the other way so that the Amendment would run somewhat on these lines:

"Provided that if any person on whom notice is served under this Section is aggrieved by the notice he may, within the prescribed time, require the question whether the land has been cultivated according to the rules of good husbandry or whether, without questioning the policy laid down by or on behalf of the Board of Agriculture, it is desirable that any portion of the land referred to in the notice shall be excluded there from to be referred to arbitration in accordance with this part of the Act…"

That would make it clear that the only point before the arbitrator was the exclusion of a portion of the land referred to in the original notice, and if that was done it is quite possible that it would be accepted by the House. I would appeal to the President of the Board of Agriculture when he comes to the Amendment, to consider whether these or similar words would not relieve us from a real ambiguity. I think the words, as drafted, do involve an ambiguity which I think the House would not like in the Bill.

We are now discussing the general question of whether the Lords Amendments shall be considered, and I cannot allow the discussion to degenerate into a close examination of each separate Amendment. I think I shall have to stop all such further discussion.

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Would you be good enough to give some ruling as to how the discussion in that case is to be carried on? There have been three Amendments spoken to by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture. He has indicated his intention to ask the House to agree with one of them and to disagree with the other two. It is a little difficult to see, in these circumstances, how we can discuss the Motion he has made without, going into the merits or demerits of those Amendments.

Every one of those Amendments will have to be put separately, and each one can be discussed.

May I suggest upon that that we have only this opportunity for getting the matter right, and we want to get it right. I am very anxious that the particular point the previous speaker has dealt with should be got right, and I think it can. If we are to alter, it is desirable that we should get the best words. If we make suggestions of possible means now it would give time for the President of the Board of Agriculture to consult his advisers, before we come to the Amendment, as to what would be the best means, if it is the opinion of the House that a certain change should take place. That is why I think it would be a good thing to make suggestions now rather than later on, when there is no time for consideration.

The right hon. Gentleman will see where that would lead. It would mean that any Member who has any Amendment to propose to any one of the Lords Amendments could now discuss it. I think we should first discuss the question of whether we shall consider the Lords Amendments at all. That is the only question now before the House.

I think I had better wait until the different Amendments come on, and then make my remarks.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments considered accordingly.

CLAUSE 3.—(Claims for Payment.)

(1) The person who was, on the first day of September in the year in which the wheat or oats were produced, the occupier of the land on which they were produced shall be deemed to be the occupier entitled to receive any payments under this Part of this Act:

Provided that when there has been any change in the occupation of the land on which the wheat or oats were produced, then—

( a ) if the outgoing tenant is under any custom or otherwise entitled to harvest any wheat or oats grown on the land, the outgoing tenant shall in lieu of the incoming tenant or the landlord be entitled to receive any payments under Part I. of this Act in respect of the wheat or oats, and

( b ) if the outgoing tenant is under any custom or otherwise entitled to receive compensation from his landlord or the incoming tenant in respect of the wheat or oats as for an away-going crop or otherwise, the right of the landlord or incoming tenant to receive payments under Part I. of this Act in respect of the wheat or oats shall be taken into account in the assessment of the compensation so payable.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section ( a ) leave out the words "Part I.," and insert instead thereof the words "this Part"—Agreed to.

In Sub-section ( b ) leave out the words "Part I.," and insert instead thereof the words "this Part"—Agreed to.

CLAUSE 4.—(Minimum Hate for Agricultural Wages.)

(1) Any person who employs a workman in agriculture shall pay wages to the workman at a rate not less than the minimum rate as fixed under this Act and applicable to the case, and if he fails to do so, shall be liable on summary conviction in respect of each offence to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, and to a fine not exceeding one pound for each day on which the offence is continued after conviction therefore.

(2) On conviction of an employer under this Section the Court may by the conviction adjudge or order the employer convicted to pay in addition to any fine such sum as appears to the Court to be due to the workman employed on account of wages, the wages being calculated at the minimum rate; but the power to order the payment of wages under this provision shall not be in derogation of any right of the workman to recover wages by any other proceedings.

(3) Any agreement for the payment of wages in contravention of this Section, or for abstaining to exercise any right of enforcing the payment of wages in accordance with this Section shall be void.

(4) The provisions of this Section as to payment of wages at a minimum rate shall operate as respects able-bodied men as from the commencement of this Act (although a minimum rate of wages may not have been fixed), so as to enable any sum which would have been payable under this Section to an able-bodied man on account of wages for time-work if a minimum rate for able-bodied men had been fixed to be recovered by the workman from his employer at any time not exceeding three months after the rate is fixed:

Provided that no sum shall be recoverable under this provision if the wages paid have, in the opinion of the Court, been equivalent to wages for an ordinary day's work at the rate of twenty-five shillings a week.

Lords Amendment:

At end of Sub-section (1) insert the words, "Provided that such a person shall not be liable to be so convicted if he proves that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained that the wages paid were less than the wages required under this Act to be paid."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

On this Motion I would suggest that the House should take the contrary course. I had hoped that this would have been dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture in his preliminary statement. I will give the House my reasons for thinking that the Bill would be better if it were left, in this respect at least, in, its existing state. The Amendment that has just been read is an Amendment to come in at the end of Subsection 1 of Section 4. The Section is that which deals with the minimum wage, and the precise proposal is that if wages paid are lower than, and in contravention of, the minimum wage provisions, it should be regarded as an offence to be punished as provided by the Section. In the Subsection as it stands there is no proviso of the kind which it is now proposed to insert, and I would remind the House that the Sub-section as it stands was based on Section 6 of the Trade Boards Act of 1909, and that contains no provision like that which we are now asked to put in. I may also remind the House that in the National Insurance Act, 1911, in Section 69, which deals with offences, there is a provision along similar lines, and again without any qualification like that which is suggested in the Lords Amendments. In these circumstances, and with these precedents before us, it seems to me better that the Sub-section should stand as it is, and that we should not agree with the Lords Amendments. In looking at that Amendment, I put to myself the question, "What can be the object?" and it is not easy to see what could be its practical bearing. Assuming that the employer pays an agricultural labourer at a lower rate than the minimum wage provided by the Bill, surely he must know it; and if he does not know then he ought to know, and it is his business to find out. I gather—I may be wrong, and the right hon. Gentleman will tell me if I am wrong—I gather that the promoters of the Amendment had in view the case of the landlord—one might refer to him as an absentee landlord, in the general sense of absentee—the landlord who is not dealing with the labourers himself, but through an agent or factor, and that if in these circumstances wages are paid in contravention of the minimum wage the landlord himself should not be liable. We know, of course, the general principles which ought to prevail—that a man who does a thing through an agent does it by himself, and must be taken as responsible for the consequence. If that is the object of this Amendment, then in circumstances like those to which I have referred I would ask the right hon. Gentleman who is to be liable? The landlord might not be liable if he had no personal knowledge of the rates of wages which were being paid on his behalf, and I very much doubt if his agent comes within the terms of the Section. It is certainly a point which ought to be cleared up. Following what has been provided in the Trades, Boards Act, if you have a minimum wage provision at all, then if wages are paid in contravention of the minimum wage provision, someone ought to be liable, and that person should certainly, in my opinion, be the employer rather than his agent who does it for him. At all events, there ought to be someone liable, and I would very much like that point to be cleaved up.

I desire to associate myself with what was said by the last speaker. The point is rather an important point, and the effect of putting in a proviso like that in the Lords Amendment, I think, would be very harmful. After all, these things are administered to a great extent by lay magistrates, and it is almost an invitation to a bench, that certainly is not likely to be very much prejudiced against offenders under this Section, to look upon it a great deal more sympathetically than they should. Having regard to the fact that the Trades Boards Acts has no such provision, and that it is being sought to make this provision for agriculture which we have not made for any other industry, I think we ought to be content with the very well-known provision under the Probation of Offenders Act, dealing with the power of all Courts of summary jurisdiction of taking into consideration the whole of the circumstances, and even when the offence is proved of dealing with the case either by dismissing it or ordering some small payment of cost, or at any rate dealing with it on lines of a very moderate nature, I might perhaps just read the Section:

"Where any person is charged before a Court of Summary Jurisdiction with an offence punishable by such Court, and the Court thinks that the charge is proved, but is of opinion that, having regard to the character, antecedents, age, health, or mental condition of the person charged, or to the trivial nature of the offence, or to the extenuating circumstances under which the offence was committed, it is inexpedient to inflict any punishment or any other than a nominal punishment, or that it is expedient to release the offender on probation, the Court may, without proceeding to conviction, make an order either (1) dismissing the information or charge; or (2) discharging the offender conditionally on his entering into a recognisance, with or without sureties, to be of good behaviour and to appear for conviction and sentence when called on at any time during such period, not exceeding three years, as may be specified in the order."

5.0 P.M.

Having regard to that general section which clearly has been held to be sanctioned in all other cases, it does really lay upon people who want to make this separate provision to deal with agricultural cases to show why they are to be in any way dealt with differently than in ordinary industrial cases. There is a slight tendency—sometimes it is a little more than a slight tendency—to rather overrate what I may call the unintelligence of that very shrewd body of men, the farmers of this country, and I think it is pressing it a little too far to. suggest that in this particular case they should be treated differently from the rest of the community and I would therefore strongly urge the Government to reconsider their position upon what might appear to be a small point, but which I do not consider to foe a small point, but one which will have serious effects and look like an instruction from the Government to these Courts to deal with leniency in these cases.

It appears to me that really the question (before the House is whether the object of these provisions is to secure for the labourers the standard rate of wages being fixed or whether it is to fine the farmer for a quite inadvertent error the sum of £20 and £l a day for every day that the offence is continued after conviction. This Amendment has clearly got to be read with the next Amendment which says, "That in any proceedings against an employer under this section the Court may, whether there is a conviction or not, order the employer to pay in addition to the fine, if any," then follow the words of the Bill "such sum as appears to the Court to be due to the workmen employed on account of wages." These two Amendments, which are put in another place, provide together that under no possible contingency can the Court fail to allot to the workman any wages to which he is entitled under the provisions of the Act, but the first Amendment does say that in. consequence of their Lordships having left in this extraordinary drastic method of procedure—really it is a criminal action, where a £20 would be imposed and £l for each day on which the offence is continued and they have left that provision in the Bill—they do say that some safeguarding words are absolutely necessary. So far as I have seen the Debates in another place—and I have read the earlier Debates fully and such reports of the discussion in Committee as are available to this House— there is no point to the assumption of the hon. Member for Tradeston (Mr. D. White) that these words were put in on behalf of the absentee landlord. Any occupier, any farm tenant, may, particularly in view of the fact that here is a new system being initiated and that it even goes back retrospectively although the Wages Board is not constituted till the date of the passing of the Act, inadvertently have paid a sum less than that which ultimately proved to be due to the labourer. Surely these two Amendments taken together do absolutely safeguard the labourer, which I imagined until this Debate was the object of the hon. Member and the House—taking these two together there is no question that they ought to be admitted to be an improvement on the procedure of the Bill. I also say this general word: One of the objects of this Bill is to gain the confidence of the farmer. Surely we are not going to gain the confidence of the farmer if it is to be reported as the result of this Debate that we refuse an Amendment which says only that he shall not be convicted provided he did not know, and could not with reasonable diligence have known, that he was committing an offence. If that is the way we are going to treat the farmer on an Amendment such as this I think this portion of the Bill at any rate will fail to get his confidence.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (2) leave out from the beginning to the word "such" ["such sum"], and insert instead thereof the words "In any proceedings against the employer under this Section of the Court may, whether there is a conviction or not, order the employer to pay in addition to the fine, if any."—Agreed to.

In Sub-section (4), after the word "fixed" ["may not have been fixed"], insert the words "but only."—Agreed to.

In Sub-section (4) leave out the words "if the wages paid have," and insert instead thereof the words "except in a case in which and to the extent to which the wages paid have not."—Agreed to.

CLAUSE 5.—(Establishment of Wages Board.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall, as soon as may be and after consultation with the Minister of Labour, establish an Agricultural Wages Board; and such of the provisions of the Trade Boards Act, 1909, as are set out (with modifications) in the First Schedule to this Act shall be deemed to be incorporated in this Part of this Act.

(2) The Agricultural Wages Board shall fix minimum rates of wages for workmen employed in agriculture for time-work, and may also, if and so far as they think it necessary or expedient, fix minimum rates of wages for workmen employed in agriculture for piece-work.

(3) Any such minimum rates may be fixed so as to apply universally to workmen employed in agriculture, or to any special class of workmen in agriculture, or to any special area, subject in each case to any exceptions which may be made by the Agricultural Wages Board for employment of any special character, and so as to vary according as the employment is for a day, week, month, or other period, or according to the number of working hours or the conditions of the employment, or so as to provide for a differential rate in the case of overtime:

Provided that if the Agricultural Wages Board are satisfied that any workman employed or desiring to be employed on time work to which a minimum rate fixed by the Board is applicable is affected by any mental or other infirmity or physical injury which renders him incapable of earning that minimum rate, the Board may grant to the workman, subject to such conditions, if any, as they prescribe, a permit exempting the employment of the workman from the provisions of this Act requiring wages to be paid at not less than the minimum rate, and while the permit is in force an employer shall not be liable to any penalty for paying wages to the workman at a rate less than the minimum rate so long as any conditions prescribed by the Board on the grant of the permit are complied with.

(4) Before fixing any minimum rate of wages, the Agricultural Wages Board shall give notice of the rate which they propose to fix, and consider any objections to the rate which may be lodged with them within one month; and the Board shall give notice of any minimum rates fixed by them in such manner as they think fit with a view to bringing the minimum rates, so far as practicable, to the knowledge of the persons affected.

(5) The Agricultural Wages Board may, if they think it expedient, cancel or vary any minimum rate fixed by them, and shall reconsider any such minimum rate if the Board of Agriculture and fisheries direct them to do so, whether an application is. made for the purpose or not; and the provisions of this Section as to notices shall apply where it is proposed to cancel or vary the minimum rate in the same manner as they apply where it is proposed to fix the minimum rate.

(6) In fixing minimum rates under this Section, the Agricultural Wages Board shall, as far as practicable, secure for able-bodied men wages which, in the opinion of the Board, are adequate to promote efficiency and to enable a man in an ordinary case to maintain himself and his family in accordance with such standard of comfort as may be reasonable in relation to the nature of his occupation.

(7) Nothing in this Act shall prejudice the operation of any agreement entered into or custom existing before the passing of this Act for the payment of wages at a rate higher than the minimum rate settled under this Act.

(8) In fixing minimum rates for time work under this Section the Agricultural Wages Board shall secure for able-bodied men wages which, in their opinion, are equivalent to wages for an ordinary day's work at the rate of at least 25s. a week.

(9) In this Part of this Act the expression "able-bodied man" means any male workman who is not incapable by reason of age or mental or other infirmity or physical injury of performing the work of a normally efficient workman.

Lords Amendment:

Leave out Sub-section (2), and insert instead thereof,

"(2) The Agricultural Wages Board shall appoint district wages committees for such areas as the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may by regulation prescribe:

Provided that if at any time the Agricultural Wages Board are satisfied that in any area a representative joint committee, consisting of a chairman and persons representing in equal numbers employers and workmen engaged in agriculture, exists for purposes which include the fixing minimum rates of wages for workman engaged in agriculture, the Board may recognise and appoint that committee to be the district wages committee for the area.

(3) Subject as hereinafter provided, a district wages committee shall fix minimum rates of wages for workmen employed in agriculture in their district for time-work, and they may, if and so far as they think it necessary or expedient, fix minimum rates of wages for able-bodied workmen employed in agriculture in their district for piece work. Provided that any rate so fixed shall not have effect until it has been approved by the Agricultural Wages Board."

I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment," for the reasons which I have already stated.

I am rather sorry the Government do not agree with this Amendment. I had intended to say something on the other Amendment, but, I thought it would be better, instead of making two speeches, to make one or two remarks upon the Amendment which is now before the House. I myself do not attach any great importance to it, but I do think that this would probably result, in the Wages Board being more quickly established, and I do not think it would in any way invalidate the power of the Board of Agriculture, because it says, "Provided that any rate so fixed shall not have effect until it has been approved by the Agricultural Wages Board." Therefore, I do not quite see the reason why it should be rejected. I am very much afraid that one of the results of this will be that there will be a considerable time before the Wages Board is set up and a considerable time before they come to any decision, and that if they have to submit their decisions to the authority in London it would be some considerable time before the farmers know exactly what wages they have to pay. I want to say a few words later on upon the question of able-bodied men which would be more in order on the other Amendment, and, therefore, I will not do so now, but I do think it is essential that if we are to have Wages Boards—which I myself do not like—that they should be set up as quickly as possible, and I think, in all probability, this would set them up-quicker than if the proceedings are left to the ordinary structure of the Bill.

I would like to say one word in addition to what I have already said on the general question, and that is that there is such a very small difference between the method proposed in another place and the method in the Bill, and yet such difference appears to me to be, on the whole, important. I remember that the President of the Board of Agriculture, in one of the earlier speeches he made on this question of the Wages Board, stated that if agricultural labour in this country were organised in such a way as to enable them to elect or nominate their own representatives there would be no question: of a central body or department of State overriding that elective process and nominating the district committees and the: original Wages Board. But in Scotland there are these committees actually in existence, they work exceedingly well, and the Scottish Members do not wish them to be interfered with in any way. In fact, the Lords Amendment says that they recognise these committees do not exist in the South of England at present and they recognise that the agricultural labourer is not fully organised, and so in their Amendment they say that the Agricultural Wages Board shall appoint district wages committees for such areas as the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, may by Regulation prescribe. So far they are in agreement with the view of the Board of Agriculture, but, having appointed these committees, there is a further provision that where there are existing committees that really represent labour and employers, being elected locally, these should gradually, and, as they come to form, take the place of the others I cannot imagine any provision that can better meet that transition period, and. the view is naturally held in another place that the people who know most about the wages that are provided for a district are the local people, and that it is for the central body to have these decisions or suggestions of the local committees reported to it and to co-ordinate them. All these apparently trifling differences will make, as the hon. Member for the City of London said, for the quicker operation of the Act. These alterations are now negatived by the Board of Agriculture, although they are precisely what I under- stood the President of the Board to describe as the very thing he would like, although proper words were not then found. I think it is a great mistake if a Bill of this kind is even hurriedly sent up to another place, if we are to have any second Chamber, or if the Second Chamber is to have any influence in our legislation at all, that when it deals with a subject that is peculiarly within its province and within the range of its special knowledge and makes recommendations which are not revolutionary in any sense, and in no sense in the interests of any class except the class which this Bill is aimed to protect, that they should be brushed aside and negatived by the Board of Agriculture. The general speech of the right hon. Gentleman did not give us any adequate reason for rejecting this particular Amendment, and on the Amendment itself he has given us no reasons whatever. For those reasons I find myself in disagreement with him. I believe that the method proposed is far more in the interests of the labourers throughout the country, because it recognises the fact that the moment they can organise themselves sufficiently, and appoint their own representatives, those representatives shall take the place of persons nominated from Whitehall. I do not believe they have any confidence in persons nominated from Whitehall, and that they would prefer to set up their own committee. This Amendment, made in another place, merely gives an incentive to get the workers organised and set up their own committees as soon as they possibly can. I am quite certain, if we want to avoid friction and trouble of all sorts, the more we leave these questions to be settled locally, instead of having probably an army of paid officials to be sent all over the country to override any decisions that may be come to and the opinions of local people, the better for the fate of this Bill, the aim of which is corn production. It is a Bill which, therefore, ought to come smoothly and without opposition into operation at the earliest possible date. Therefore, I disagree personally with the decision of the Government.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (3), after the word "area," insert instead thereof the words "or to any special class in a special area."—Agreed to.

Leave out the words, "Agricultural Wages Board," and insert instead thereof the words, "District Wages Committee."—Disagreed with.

Leave out the words, "Provided that if the Agricultural Wages Board are satisfied that any workman employed or desiring to be employed on time-work to which a minimum rate fixed by the Board is applicable is affected by any mental or other infirmity or physical injury which renders him incapable of earning that minimum rate, the Board may grant to the workman subject to such conditions, if any, as they prescribe a permit exempting the employment of the workman from the provisions of this Act requiring wages to be paid at not less than the minimum rate; and while the permit is in force an employer shall not be liable to any penalty for paying wages at any conditions prescribed by the Board on the grant of the permit are complied with."—Disagreed with.

In Sub-section (4) leave out the words "Agricultural Wages Board," and insert instead thereof the words "District Wages Committee."—Disagreed with.

Leave out the word "Board" ["and the Board"], and insert instead thereof the word "Committee." Disagreed with.

In Sub-section (5) leave out the words "Agricultural Wages Board," and insert instead thereof the words "District Wages Committee."—Disagreed with.

Leave out the words, "Board of Agriculture and Fisheries," and insert instead thereof the words "Agricultural Wages Board."—Disagreed with.

In Sub-section (6) leave out the words "Agricultural Wages Board," and insert instead thereof the words "District Wages Committee."—Disagreed with.

Leave out the word "Board" ["opinion of the Board"], and insert instead thereof the word "Committee."—Disagreed with.

Leave out Sub-section (7).—Agreed

with. In Sub-section (8) leave out the words "Agricultural Wages Board," and insert instead thereof the words "County Wages Committee."—Disagreed with.

At the end of Sub-section (8) insert the words, "If a District Wages Committee fail within a period prescribed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to fix minimum rates of wages for time-work within their district, the Board shall refer the question of fixing such rates to the Agricultural Wages Board; and thereupon the powers and duties of the District Wages Committee to fix such rates shall so far as required for the purposes of the reference be transferred to the Agricultural Wages Board and any rate fixed under such a reference by the Agricultural Wages Board after consultation with the district wages committee shall be deemed to be the minimum rate fixed under this Act."— Disagreed with.

After Sub-section (8), insert the words ''Nothing in this part of this Act shall prejudice the operation of any agreement entered into or custom existing before the passing of this Act for the payment of wages at a rate higher than the minimum rate fixed under this part of this Act."— Agreed with.

In Sub-section (9), leave out the word "man," and insert instead thereof the words "in its application to any workman."—Disagreed with.

Leave out the words "any male" and insert instead thereof the word "a."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to explain why he disagrees with this Amendment, which, it seems to me, widens the matter and which is in the interests of the workman and agrees with the definition of workman in Clause 16 ( c ). I have read that Sub-section very carefully, and it includes girls and boys. If you exclude the words, it leaves the matter absolutely open as to what is to happen to any female worker. The Lords seem to have gone into this matter very carefully, and I think this is an improvement.

The omission of the words is consequential on the omission of the words proposed to be inserted by the Lords previously.

Question put, and agreed to. Lords Amendment:

After Clause 5, insert the following New Clause:

(Special Provisions as to Non-able-bodied Workmen).

(1) Where a person employs a workman, not being an able-bodied workman, in agriculture on time work at a rate less than that which would have been payable had he been an able-bodied workman, that person shall, within fourteen days of the date hereinafter mentioned, send to the district wages committee a statement in the prescribed form signed by or on behalf of himself and the workman, containing, particulars as to the wages agreed to be paid, and the circumstances which render the workman not an able-bodied workman, and such other particulars as may be prescribed; and that committee may, if they think fit, increase the rate of wages payable under the contract, and thereupon the-contract shall have effect as from the date hereinafter mentioned as so varied: Provided that this provision shall not apply in any case where the wages paid are in. accordance with a certificate granted by a district wages committee under this Section.

If the employer fails to send such a notice as aforesaid or to pay wages at the rate fixed by the committee, he shall be liable to the like penalties as if the workman had been an able-bodied workman.

The date hereinbefore referred to is the date of the commencement of the contract or of the fixing of the minimum time rate for able-bodied workmen in the district whichever is the later.

(2) If a district wages committee are satisfied that any workman employed or desiring to be employed on time work is not an able-bodied workman, the committee may grant to the workman, subject to such conditions, if any, as may be prescribed by the committee a certificate to that effect and applying to the workman the minimum rate of wages fixed under this Act for able-bodied workmen, subject to such reduction as may be specified in the certificate; and whilst such a certificate is in force this Act shall apply as if the minimum rate subject to such reduction as aforesaid were applicable to him.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

I am afraid it is too late to take any action of any value with regard to this Amendment, as I missed my opportunity when you put the Amendment with regard to overtime earlier. I cannot help saying that I deeply regret that the right hon. Gentleman should have declined to accept this Amendment. I think that by doing so a wholly unnecessary hindrance is given to farmers in the employment of labour and hardship will be caused to many old men engaged in agriculture. This is really a very big question and not at all as small as it might at first sight appear to be. The number of men engaged in agriculture is very large. Those who have been connected therewith must have observed for a number of years past the alteration in the relative importance of the ordinary day men and the ploughmen, stockmen, and shepherds. Those of us connected with agriculture will recollect that when hand threshing was in vogue, and mowing and cutting of corn, it was absolutely necessary to have ordinary day men who were both energetic -and skilful persons. A great deal of that has altered, with the result that when you get outside the classes of ploughmen, herdsmen, and shepherds, you can get along in agriculture with a large number of men who cannot, by any stretch of imagination, be called able-bodied. There are thatchers and hedgers, who are highly paid, and do not attach themselves to any farm but go from place to place. It is extraordinary the number of men who cannot be classed as wholly able-bodied and who work now for farmers. Unless you have some provision of this kind you will hinder the farmers from getting the assistance of a large number of those men. Instead of asking these old men to go before some board which is to say whether they are either inefficient or mentally deficient, this provision of the House of Lords enormously eases the position with regard to those men. It is no answer to say that this is contracting out, and that contracting out is not a wise provision in regard to this Bill. There is no such thing as contracting out under the provision of the Lords. What is proposed is that it is incumbent upon the employers, having made the contract, to forward it to the Board for their approval in each case. Surely the position of old men is made better by a condition of that kind. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman however much we may be opposed to portions of this Bill we shall make a loyal attempt to carry it out and administer it as simply as possible. On the other hand it is up to the Government to make the difficulties as little as they can and to ease the position as much as they possibly can. Unless some such provision is inserted farmers will be hindered in getting workmen at a time when they do not want any hindrance, but when, on the contrary, they want every man able to assist in agriculture. A large number of old men who have been very valuable hitherto in agriculture are now likely to be debarred.

I do not for a moment suggest that any employer, I do not care who he is, would turn an old man out of his employment, whatever might be the charge you put upon him, but I do say that it is impossible, and it is unreasonable, to expect that these old men will be taken on if the conditions are such as were laid down in this Bill, and without this Lords Amendment. I would make a very strong appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to reject this thing too hurriedly. It is really a very important Amendment. It will do a good deal to make this Bill workable. It will do a very great deal to take away much of the hardship. I support the Lords Amendment not only as fair to the farmer, but also as a protection to these old men engaged in agriculture. I say that without an Amendment of this kind you will make it very hard indeed for a large number of men who have been in agriculture for a long while, and who desire to keep in it, as well as some who may desire to come into it, to do so, for the Bill as it stands will prevent that. I hope, if not too late, that the President of the Board of Agriculture will reconsider that matter. I understood him to admit that there was a good deal to be said in favour of this. I have not heard a single word in this House in support of the provision as it remains in the Bill. I recollect that the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Simon) discussed this provision as it is in the Bill when it was before the Committee, and I then took the opportunity of expressing my opinion upon it. That opinion I hold now quite as strongly. All that the right hon. and learned Gentleman could say for the Clause—indeed I did not hear him say anything for it—.was that some sort of provision as this was necessary in the Bill. To-day he did say that there was a good deal to be said for the Lords Amendments. He did not say a word about this Amendment. I venture to suggest to the President that he should compare the two Amendments.

I earnestly hope that the Government will reconsider their determination to disagree with the Lords in this Amendment. I am not sure, but I do not think my hon. Friend who has just sat down is correct in thinking that it is too late. The Amendment is after Clause 5, and is to insert Clause ( a ). It is not necessary to leave out Clause 5. As I read it, this is to insert the new Clause after Clause 5. We are, I think, rather in a difficulty, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, because these Amendments were not circulated. I went to my house this morning. I found all my papers, but I did not receive these Amendments. In addition to that—whilst we are on this subject—may I say there is no mention of this Bill or these Amendments on the Order Paper? The first I saw of these Amendments was when I inquired in the Vote Office, just before the House opened; so, as I say, we are in a difficulty in considering these Amendments which have been so very hurriedly put before the House. I myself believe that though this Clause might go a good deal further than it does, it will, to a certain extent, meet what I think it is absolutely necessary should be met. There are, as my hon. Friend says, a large number of men who are not able-bodied, but who at the present time are employed in agricultural work. I think I am right in saying that in my part of the world the majority of men employed are men over fifty-five and sixty. There are very few young men left on the farms. These older men vary.

You may have a man of sixty-five or sixty-six who is a fairly strong man and a willing man, and who, like a willing horse, tires perhaps a little bit at his work, but in the main does quite as much as a lazy younger man or horse. Then, again, there may be the younger man, to all appearances physically strong, but who probably finds his powers are failing, and who cannot put in the largest amount of work, but is willing to do his best. No one can know exactly how the men stand in this respect except the farmer and the man. Unless the farmer is given some sort of, I will not say privilege, but power to make arrangements with men of this type, I am afraid the result will be that these men will not continue to be employed. I do not mean to say by that that they will be dismissed tomorrow, but they will be gradually. As younger and more able-bodied men can be obtained, the old men will be dismissed who might possibly have been kept on if the farmer had had the opportunity of getting them at a somewhat lower wage. It cannot be expected that the farmer can have this increase of wages, and increase of difficulties put upon him, while at the same moment his stock is to be taken from him, and the prices at which he sells his produce is to be fixed. If, in addition, he has to continue to employ, at the higher wages, these older men who cannot give that efficient service which is absolutely necessary to the farmer if he has to make a profit at all under the new conditions, he will be further hampered.

It seems to me that this is a very mild Clause. After all, what does it do? So far as I understand, it does this: It says if the farmer and the workmen can enter into an agreement, the workman not being an able-bodied man, that the farmer shall employ the man under certain conditions, that they shall submit this arrangement to the Wages Board, and the Wages Board, if they think fit, may increase the wages payable under the contract. What harm is there in that? What will be the result if this Amendment is not accepted? No man will know whether a man in easy employment is going to be considered able-bodied or not by the Wages Board. That will be a very difficult position, because a farmer may be employing an old man at 16s. or 17s. per week, and that old man may be very glad to accept it. He may be a widower, living perhaps with his grownup children, who are receiving good wages from the same farmer who is employing him, and the farmer, under the Bill as it stands, will not know whether to employ the old man or not. He may find that he is liable to pay the old man another 10s. or 12s. a week. It is only human nature to think that the farmer may find that he is not able to continue to employ the old man. There should be a little more elasticity in this matter. If this Clause is left in, what will happen? The farmer will have to go on employing these men with the possibility that they may be rated as able-bodied, and he will have to pay the difference between what he has paid and the 25s. per week, or whatever it may be. If a man is not rated as an able-bodied man, he will have to obtain a permit to be employed. As I read the Bill he will have to go about with his permit in his pocket. Many men will not like that. They will not like to go about confessing that they are not able-bodied, and cannot do a whole day's work. If they do not do that they will not get employed. Then, of course, there are many cases where the farmer wants extra men quickly, because of weather conditions changing for the better. Really, unless something of the sort suggested is put into the Bill you are going to render the proper carrying on of agriculture almost impossible. Some people seem to think that agriculture is like a factory where you can prepare everything beforehand, where there may be a certain amount of work to do, and where, if you get more orders than that amount there is only the more work to do; not at all realising that agriculture is dependent upon the weather and that at times you may have much to do and at other times very little. I really hope that such a very moderate Clause as this will be retained by the Government in the interests of the old men. I have heard no argument against it. So far as I can make out, the President of the Board of Agriculture is in favour of it. He recognises the disadvantage in having a Clause of this sort. So far as I can remember his only reason for not accepting this Amendment was that it was necessary that the whole of these powers should be left in the hands of the Board of Agriculture, who are the final authority. I am afraid that if that is so that, as I said before, it will prevent the older men being employed and prevent a good many who are now employed on a farm being employed at all.

On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Is not this Amendment consequential on the Amendment which relates to the district wages board which we have decided to accept?

It appears to me that this matter of going into detail might perfectly well be left with the wages committee, and would be entirely consistent with the decision the House has already arrived at. I desire to ask, Mr. Maclean, if you would say whether this Clause is not in substitution of the proviso of the Bill, paragraph 2, of Sub-section (3)1 I think, therefore, the point raised by the hon. Gentleman opposite is ill-conceived.

The main proposal of the Amendment is the question of the able-bodied workmen, and if the Committee agree to that, then, of course, we must make these consequential Amendments.

If the hon. Member will turn to the Schedule—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]—

As to the question put by the hon. Member for Devizes the question having been put to the House that the House doth disagree, it is not now open to move any Amendments to the Amendment. Therefore there is no option.

I do not rise to any point of order at all against the insertion of the Amendment in another place. I just want to say in two words that I am very glad the Government have taken the line they have done. They do not at present, and I hope they will not, show any disposition to alter their view. I believe the key to-some of the rather natural fears expressed as to the range, complications, and difficulties of procedure for dealing with cases of non-able-bodied workmen lies in one of the parts of the first Schedule to the Bill— namely, that part which enables the Agricultural Wages Board to delegate certain business to the district wages committee, and which authorises the district wages; committee to delegate to a sub-committee any powers so delegated to the committee. I imagine they have laid down the general lines on which this question of who are able-bodied men will be decided, they will delegate to the sub-committees of themselves the question of deciding: parish, or group of parishes, and how the-matter shall really work out in practice. I believe that can be done without all these delays, or indignities to these poor old persons which have been imagined and described to us; and I believe that that provision in the Schedule will give all the necessary powers to enable the difficulties, and hardships that have been imagined and described to be avoided. I hope, therefore, the Government will not modify the view they have expressed to the House.

I hope the Government will stick to their guns. I can quite understand the feelings of the hon. Member for Wiltshire for the old men, but I think, if he reads Clause 5 carefully, and also if he refers to the machinery mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, there is no fear of the old men being precluded from getting work. The difference between the Bill and the Amendment is that, whereas under the Bill the farmer will have to apply to somebody in order to pay less than the minimum wage, under the Amendment it would be the rule that everybody should be allowed to pay less than the minimum wage, unless the Agricultural Wages Board told him otherwise. That is the whole difference. Under the Bill the minimum wage is the statutory wage until those in authority say that the man need not have the whole of it. I do not think there will be any difficulty about the permit, because, even if the man has a permit, it will not compel him to take less wages; it will only allow him to take less wages. I am quite sure in times of stress, such as hay-making, he will get more than the minimum wage, even with a permit to get less. At such times there will be no question of a minimum wage; the farmers will be quite ready to give more. What the Bill does is to make a statutory ordinary wage, which is not to be altered except with the consent of the authorities. This Amendment would do away with that, so that anyone might pay less, subject to his afterwards getting excused by the authority. I think that is a wrong principle. Let us lay it down, as in other Bills, that this shall be the minimum wage, and where there is a case for exemption it is quite easy to get. The machinery is made quite easy, and there will be no hardship at all on the old people.

The hon. Member for Lich field (Sir C. Warner) has given a gloss to the matter which sounds quite attractive. He says it is the employer who has to go to the Wages Board if he wants to employ a person not able-bodied.

That is what I understood. The point I wish to make is this. The words are:

"Provided that if the Agricultural Wages Board are satisfied that any workman employed or desiring to be employed on time work to which a minimum rate fixed by the Board is applicable is affected by any mental or other infirmity or physical injury which renders him incapable of earning that minimum rate, the Board may grant to the workman, subject to such conditions, if any, as they prescribe, a permit exempting the employment of the workman from the provisions of this Act."

There is no question that, under the Bill as drafted—and the President of the Board of Agriculture is so in love with it that he has rejected this reasonable and workable proposal put in another place, each one of these workmen has to go to the Wages Board individually and satisfy the Board that he is mentally deficient or physically incapable or too old to earn the full rate of wages. A more horrible proposal from the workman's point of view I cannot possibly conceive. What is the alternative? What is proposed is that at least this matter shall be left to a district wages committee. The district wages committees are set up under the Bill even as drafted. It is only a question of the method. That is one improvement. Secondly, consider the vast number of labourers concerned. In another place it was decided that at least a very large proportion of them might be got out of the way by agreement between the employer and the employed, subject to the decision of the district wages committee as I. whether a fair bargain or not had been made.

What we want is to get on with the cultivation of the land. We do not want unworkable provisions in the Bill, under which every infirm or non-able-bodied man has got to go and state the fact that he is not able-bodied or is infirm or not quite normal in his intellect, or whatever the physical or mental disability may be, in order to get this permit. Therefore, it seems to me that the Amendment put in by their Lordships is an immense improvement in making the Bill workable, and there are those of us who think that there is some wisdom outside of this House in another place and that these questions can sometimes be improved, especially when a Bill, such as this, is of a very complicated nature, and has been forced through this House at the rate this one was. Under those circumstances, there is some merit in a second consideration, and those who think so ought to divide on the question of this separate 'Clause A being inserted after Clause 5. It is regrettable that it did not happen to be put as Sub-section (1) only of this Clause, because Sub-section (2) provides an alternative to the proviso already in the Bill. But if the House decides that their Lordships were wise in putting in this proviso, that is a matter which no doubt the President of the Board of Agriculture will find some way of getting over. At any rate, I think this Subsection (1) is a vast improvement on the machinery of the Bill, and if the House goes to a Division I shall certainly support it.

I did not intervene in the Second Reading stage, or in the Committee, Report and Third Reading stages of this Bill. I have never farmed an acre in my life, and never intend to, but I do wish to press the Government very strongly indeed to reconsider their decision on this Amendment. Those who do farm and know more about agriculture than I do, have mentioned this Amendment to me, and attached great weight to it. Surely the matter, if you look at it with a fresh mind, is almost unanswerable. If a man through old age, or infirmity, or any reason is clearly not an able-bodied man, the Amendment suggests that he should make an agreement with his employer to take a less wage than the minimum wage in the district, but that can be altered at the very next meeting of the District Committee. That is the Amendment which is put down by the Lords, who do know something about agriculture. The Bill, as it stands, allows such agreement, but forces the man to get a certificate first that he is not able-bodied and if he has got that, of course, he can make any agreement he likes with that or any other employer. At all events, he has to go and get a certificate from this body. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Acland) said that will be much easier than it looks in the Bill, because the Central Committee are going to delegate to district committees, and they in turn will delegate to somebody else. What is the possible object in forcing a man to go to this district committee when, under the Amendment, master and men can agree between themselves, and go before the district committee to see whether the agreement is a fair and proper one?

The object of this Bill, as we understand it, is to help agriculture, in order to increase production, and therefore it is vital that everybody who can do useful work on the land should be enabled to do so. You are more likely to bring about that object by allowing an agreement to be made by a man who can do some work, so that he shall do it at once, the employer subsequently putting the matter right with the local tribunal, instead of putting an obstacle in the way of the man making such an agreement—an obstacle which will prevent a large number of these men coming forward to say they are not fit and to ask for a permit to be allowed to take something less than the minimum rate of i wages. Surely that will deter a large number, or, at all events, a considerable number, of people from doing useful work. I do press the Government very strongly to deal with a matter of this kind upon the merits, and to take a reasonable and common-sense view, and to allow the sweeping in—if I may use the expression— of everyone, able-bodied and non-able- bodied, at the present time in the easiest possible way, by accepting the Lords Amendment. If it goes to a Division, I shall certainly support it, because it does seem to me that no sufficient answer has been given why this course should not be taken.

6.0 P.M.

I very much regret that the Government have not made an effort to deal with this case, for there is a real case here to be dealt with. As the Bill stands, you will have to set to work o-ticket the people who are able-bodied and non-able-bodied. The farmer will not know which man is able-bodied and which is not. Every man will be able-bodied if he is not labelled non-able-bodied. The farmer cannot afford to pay a man full wages if he has hanging over his head the practical certainty of a decision before the tribunal. There is a very heavy penalty of £20, and, as the farmer is not usually a very large proprietor, such a fine is a very serious thing. It will throw a large number of people out of employment who are no longer employable at full wages. Those old men live with their families, and do what work they can when work is to be done, and so avoid going to the workhouse and becoming a charge on public funds. If you deprive men of that class-from contributing to the family funds they will have to go to the workhouse, and that is a very serious state of things. A great deal of the work done on the land is not able-bodied work, and cannot be paid for at the rate of able-bodied work because it is what is called pottering work. All these matters have to be taken into consideration, because this work is done by old men and persons who are not able-bodied. You are going to stop those people doing that class of work. I look with great alarm upon what is going to happen in regard to this matter; there is always a danger in fixing a minimum wage that you are going to throw a lot of people who are not up to the standard out of work. This is a most cruel thing to do to those persons who are not up to the standard, and they will have to suffer the greatest hardships. I suppose it is quite useless to argue the matter, but I do urge the Government to give this matter some further consideration, both in the interests of the cultivation of the land and the interests of these people. I ask the Government to relieve the employer of uncer- tainty and the fear of these penalties, and to relieve the workers from the injustice which in many cases this Bill will inevitably inflict. These people who are not able-bodied should have a full opportunity of employment at a wage which they are worth. The Bill is going to make that most difficult and uncertain, and it will do a great injustice to those persons and their families.

Would it be possible to put Part I. and Part II. of this Amendment separately?

That has already been done.

Question put, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The House divided: Ayes, 113; Noes, 10.

Division No. 99.]

AYES.

[6.4 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Pringle, William M. R.

Adamson, William

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund

Baird, John Lawrence

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Rattan, Peter Wilson

Baldwin, Stanley

Hunt, Major Rowland

Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)

Barnett, Captain R. W.

Jacobsen, Thomas Owen

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Bathurst, Capt. Charles (Wilts, Wilton)

Johnson, W.

Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)

Beach, William F. H.

Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey)

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Keating, Matthew

Rowlands, James

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Kellaway, Frederick George

Samuels, Arthur W.

Bethell, Sir J. H.

Kenyon, Barnet

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Bird, Alfred

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Boland, John Plus

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Shaw, Hon. Alexander

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Levy, Sir Maurice

Sherwell, Arthur James

Bowden, Major G, R. Harland

Lindsay, William Arthur

Shortt, Edward

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton)

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Snowden, Philip

Brookes, Warwick

M'Calmont, Col. Robert C. A.

Stanier, Capt. Sir Beville

Brunner, John F. L.

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs)

Steel-Maitland, Sir A. D.

Bryce, J. Annan

Macmaster, Donald

Stirling, Lt.-Col. Archibald

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

McMicking, Major Gilbert

Terroll, George (Wilts, N. W.)

Chancellor, Henry George

Maden, Sir John Henry

Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.)

Clough, William

Manfield, Harry

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Thorne, William (West Ham)

Coats, Sir Stuart

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Tickler, T. G.

Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

Money, Sir L. G. Chiozza

Toulmin, Sir George

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.

Craig, Col. James (Down, E.)

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Watson, J. B. (Stockton)

Denison-Pender, J. C.

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Wedgwood, Lt.-Commander Josiah

Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas

Nolan, Joseph

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Nuttall, Harry

White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Edge, Captain William

O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Field, William

Parker, James (Halifax)

Young, William (Perthshire, East)

Finney, Samuel

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Younger, Sir George

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Pearce. Sir William (Limehouse)

Yoxall, Sir James Henry

Gilbert, J. D.

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n)

Grant, James Augustus

Pratt, J. W.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord

Hanson, Charles Augustin

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Edmund Talbot and Captain Guest

Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.)

Primrose, Rt. Hon. Neil James

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Gardner, Ernest

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Boyton, James

Gretton, John

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir F.

Cator, John

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Banbury and Mr. Peto.

Foster, Philip Staveley

CLAUSE 6.—(Complaints as to Inadequate Payment for Piece-work where no Minimum. Piece-rate has been Fixed.)

Any workman employed in agriculture on piece-work for which no minimum piece-rate has been fixed, or any person authorised by such a workman, may complain to the Agricultural Wages Board that the piece-rate of wages paid to the workman for that work is such a rate as would yield in the circumstances of the case to an ordinary workman a less amount of wages than the minimum time-rate applicable in the case of that workman, and the Board may on any such complaint direct that the employer shall pay to the workman such additional sum by way of wages for any piece-work done by him at that piece-rate at any time within fourteen days before the date of complaint, or at any time after the date of complaint, and before the decision of the Board thereon, as in the opinion of the Board represents the difference between the amount which would have been paid if the work had been done by an ordinary workman at the minimum time-rate and the amount actually received by the workman making the complaint, and any sum so directed to be paid may be recovered by the workman from the employer summarily as a civil debt.

Lords Amendments: Leave out the words "Agricultural Wages Board," and insert instead thereof the words "District Wages Committee."—Disagreed with.

Leave out the word "Board" ["and the Board may on any such complaint"], and insert instead thereof the word "Committee."—Disagreed with.

Leave out the word "Board" ["decision of the Board thereon"], and insert instead thereof the word "Committee."— Disagreed with.

Leave out the word "Board" ["opinion of the Board represents"], and insert instead thereof the word "Committee."— Disagreed with.

CLAUSE 7.—(Complaints as to Infraction of Minimum Rates of Wages.)

Any workman employed in agriculture, or any person authorised by a workman so employed, may complain to the Agricultural Wages Board that the wages paid to the workman by any employer are at a rate less than the minimum rate applicable in the case of that workman, and the Board shall consider the matter, and may, if they think fit, take any proceedings under this Act on behalf of the workman.

Lords Amendments:

Leave out the words "Agricultural Wages Board," and insert instead thereof the words "District Wages Committee."— Disagreed with.

Leave out the word "Board" ["and the Board shall consider"], and insert instead thereof the word "Committee."—Disagreed with.

CLAUSE 8.—(Rents not to be liaised in Consequence of Act.)

(1) The rent payable under any contract of tenancy made or varied after the passing of this Act in respect of an agricultural holding shall, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, not exceed such rent as could have been obtained if Part I. of this Act had not been in force, and any question as to whether the rent payable; under such a contract is in excess of the rent permitted by this Section or as to the amount of the excess shall he determined by a single arbitrator under and in accordance with the provisions of the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908:

Provided that the rent payable under a contract of tenancy shall not be deemed to be in excess of that permitted under this Section unless notice requiring the question to be referred to arbitration has been served on the landlord within one year from the commencement or variation of the tenancy.

Lords Amendment:

In Sub-section (1), leave out the word "notice" ["unless notice requiring the question"], and insert instead thereof the words "in writing."—Agreed to.

CLAUSE 9.—(Power to Enforce Proper Cultivation.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, if in any case they are of opinion that any land is not being cultivated in such manner as the Board think best in the interests of the country, may serve a notice on the occupier of the land requiring him to cultivate the land in accordance with directions given by the Board, and where compliance with any such directions, in the case of land in the occupation of a tenant, involves any breach of or non-compliance with any covenant or condition of the contract of tenancy, the Board may in the same or any subsequent notice so served direct that any such covenant or condition, so far as it interferes with compliance with such directions, shall be suspended, and may provide for securing to the landlord such payments and other benefits (if any) as the Board think just on account of any profit or benefit derived or expected to be derived by the tenant by reason of the suspension of the covenant or condition, and any such provision of the notice shall have effect as if it was contained in the contract of tenancy.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (1) leave out the words "The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, if in any case they are of opinion that any land is not being cultivated in such manner as the Board think best in the interests of the country, may serve a notice on the occupier of the land requiring him to cultivate the land in accordance with directions given by the Board," and insert instead thereof the words, "The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries if in any case they are of opinion—

"( a ) that any land is not being cultivated, according to the rules of good husbandry; or

"( b ) that for the purpose of increasing in the national interest the production of food the mode of cultivating any land or the use to which any land is being put) should be changed

may serve notice on the occupier of the land requiring him to cultivate the land in accordance with such directions as the Board may give for securing that the cultivation shall be according to the rules of good husbandry or for securing the necessary change in the mode of cultivating or in the use of the land, as the case may be."—Agreed to.

At the end of Sub-section (1) add the words, "Provided that if any person on whom any notice is served under this Section is aggrieved by the notice, he may within the prescribed time require the question whether the land has been cultivated according to the rules of good husbandry, or whether it is undesirable in the interest of food production that the change should apply to any portion of the land included in the notice to be referred to arbitration in accordance with this Part of this Act, and where any question is so referred to arbitration no action shall be taken for enforcing the directions given by the Board until the determination of the reference or except in accordance with the terms of the award and where the person on whom any notice is served is a tenant, the landlord shall have the same right as the tenant of requiring any question to be referred to arbitration."

On a point of Order. Will you put the Question, "That the words of the Amendment stand part down to the word 'whether'"? ["good husbandry or whether"].

That is not the way to do it. The way to do it is, first of all, to take any Amendments to the Lords Amendment. Then it can be agreed to, as amended, or not disagreed to.

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, to leave out the words "it is undesirable in the interest of food production that the change should apply to any portion of the land included in the notice," and to insert instead thereof the words "without questioning the policy laid down by or on behalf of the Board of Agriculture before the arbitrator, it is desirable that any portion of land referred to in the notice shall be excluded therefrom."

I understood the President of the Board of Agriculture to say that he would only accept the appeal when it was a question of excluding some portion of the land included in the notice. He did not think that the appeal should affect the whole of the land included in the notice issued by the Board of Agriculture, but he thought that there might be an appeal to an arbitrator on the question whether included in that notice was a mere portion of land which might be unsuitable for the particular change of cultivation required by the Board. It seems to me that to that extent an appeal would not be open to objection, but, if the appeal affected the whole of the land, and if, therefore, a change demanded on grounds of policy by the Board of Agriculture were submitted to an arbitrator, it would be open to the arbitrator to limit the policy laid down by the Board. It is, therefore, very desirable to cut out any reference to the interest of food production and to state specifically that question is not to be raised before the arbitrator, but that he is to be limited to the simple question whether any portion of the land which the Board of Agriculture has in its mind is to be struck out of the notice on the ground of its unsuitability. If the President of the Board of Agriculture could so limit the appeal, I think we should agree, but if it is to extend to grounds of policy or to affect the whole of the land, I think, there would be real grounds for objection. We could only agree to this Amendment proposed by the House of Lords subject to that intention.

I hope that my hon. Friend will not think it necessary to press this Amendment. In the first place, I really think that he is taking a mistaken view of the meaning of these words, and, what is really of much more importance of their ultimate application when this Bill becomes law. I understand him to object that any arbitrator should have power under this Amendment to contest the policy of the Department concerned, or, in other words, to discuss and to give a decision upon the question, whether it is desirable that the general policy of increasing the land under cultivation with a view of ultimately increasing the production of food should or should not be adopted. That of course could not arise in practice if you were only dealing with one particular portion of the land. That is perfectly clear from the Amendment. One of my hon. Friends to-day in the general discussion made a remark the truth of which cannot be contested even by the most determined opponent of the House of Lords in this House. I regret very much that the Debates in that place on this Bill were not more fully reported because they were of an extremely valuable character, and, if anybody will take the trouble to read the names of the men who took part in them, he cannot deny that they spoke with wide knowledge and practical experience of the subject under discussion. This particular Amendment deals with a branch of the subject covered by this Bill which has aroused the greatest possible anxiety and interest among both the occupiers and the owners of land, and I do not think that anybody would disagree with me when I say that if this Bill is going to have the result its promoters desire and is going to succeed in increasing our food supply the one thing absolutely essential is the hearty co-operation of both the owners and occupiers of land in this country.

This Bill is very drastic in its character. I do not conceal from the House that I view some of its proposals with grave anxiety. I do not conceal from the House what everybody must feel, whatever are their views, that we are dealing in a novel manner with a very old industry, and we are applying Parliamentary proposals to that industry in a way which may have results very different from those which we anticipate and desire. If you do not take steps when it is possible to allay anxiety and to remove opposition so as to secure the co-operation to which I have referred, the old saying will be proved true in regard to this Bill, as it has been proved true in regard to many another matter, that "One man can lead a horse to the water, but twenty cannot make him drink." The other day in the House of Lords, Lord Selborne, who has very progressive views with regard to this question and who, so far as I know, is a very cordial supporter of this Bill, said that you may order this or that to be done, but you cannot compel it to be done. I imagine the answer of my hon. Friend would be that you have in this Bill words which enable penalties to be imposed. That is quite true, but what has that got to do with that which we have at heart. By imposing penalties you are not going to add to the food production of the country, which is the object of this Bill and of the Minister in charge of it. The argument of those who have criticised this Amendment coming down from the other place and who support the Amendment just moved is that it may go too far and affect policy, and that therefore it ought only to apply to a portion of the land.

I am not a draughtsman, but I do not believe it would be possible to draw an Amendment which would not be open to the criticism of my hon. Friend. His Amendment itself does not remove the objection to which he has referred. He says that to allow the arbitrator to consider the whole of the land would be to introduce a discussion on policy and to give him power to decide a question of policy. I do not deny that if you regard a selection of a particular portion of land as involving policy that will be the case, but in practice I do not think it will be so. The Department will lay down their policy, and nothing that anybody can do by an appeal is going to alter that policy. It is that certain steps are to be taken in order to increase food production. Some of those who advocate more drastic measures are confusing two totally different things. They are confusing grass land broken up with corn or food produced. My right hon. Friend the President of the Board in giving his reasons earlier in the afternoon for asking the House to agree to this Amendment told us the real reason for it. The Department lays down the policy and the local committees assist in carrying it out, but with all the care in the world it may be impossible to avoid the selection of land which only the occupier or the owner knows from previous experience of it and from the record of its older history, cannot be broken up to produce corn. As my right hon. Friend said, it would produce noxious weeds and no food for man or beast. Is that what the House wants to do? Certainly not. The warmest advocate of this Bill does not want to produce a state of things under which land now growing good grass for the feeding of cattle and the producing of milk and all the other products that come from grassland would be ploughed up and a year hence have nothing on it but weeds good for nobody. A man may have this strong conviction as to what the consequences will be and may know that if he is called upon to plough up a. portion of his land it will result in disaster, and it is in respect of that portion of land that this appeal is given.

The Amendment was introduced in the other place after the most careful consideration and discussion by men who are themselves practical agriculturists. I am old enough—very few Members of this House are—to remember the days from 1879 to 1885 or 1886, and anybody who went through those times, as I did as an owner in conjunction with my tenants, would hesitate a long time before he ran any risk of bringing disasters of that kind to this country, and it is to avoid that kind of thing that my right hon. Friend is prepared to accept this Amendment. I hope the House will take the Amendment as it is on the Paper and not seek to limit it or to interfere with it under the impression that it is going to have some disastrous effect upon the policy of the Department, and is going to interfere with the production of food. On the contrary, I believe that this Amendment does not go any too far. I do not believe that the alarm as to policy is well founded, and I do not think the difficulty can be avoided, because my hon. Friend himself proposes the words, "any portion of the land." Supposing the land selected comprises fifty acres, there would be nothing on earth to prevent the occupier or owner, even if this Amendment were adopted, from objecting to some portion of it, say, forty-nine and a half acres. You cannot prevent him from objecting to some portion not exactly the whole. Therefore, if that be a challenge to policy it will happen whatever you do in the way of amendment. The Government attach importance to this Amendment, because they think that there ought to be further security in the Bill that steps will not be taken which will result, not in increasing food production but in exactly the reverse. For those reasons, we think that the Amendment as it has come down to this House does not go too far, and that it will give a reasonable and much to be desired security. We, therefore, ask the House to accept it, and not to accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend, or any other Amendment which would limit it still further. Let me remind the House that we have dealt somewhat drastically with the Amendments that their Lordships have sent us. We have already dismissed two of them, one of which has a good many. Members to support it; This Amendment, which, in our opinion, does not go one inch too far, is one with which we must not interfere, and one which we ask the House to accept as it stands.

I agree with a great deal of what my right hon. Friend has said, particularly because, at the end of his speech, as it seemed to me, he entirely admitted the case which those who are opposing this Amendment make, namely, that you cannot rely at all, as the President of the Board of Agriculture suggested earlier in the afternoon, on the power of objection being limited to a portion of the land, because, as the right hon. Gentleman very truly observed, if the whole of the land under notice is fifty acres a man may say: "I do not claim that the whole thing be reconsidered with regard to the fifty acres—that is not within my power— but I do claim that it be reconsidered with regard to the forty-nine and a-half acres. It is in regard to that portion, which, although not the whole, is practically the whole, that I appeal." It is because the man has the direct power of appealing with regard to all his land— not technically perhaps, but with regard to 999 1000th parts of it—that we desire to make it clear that the power of appeal, not being sensibly narrowed at all by the limitation to a portion, shall not apply to questions of the policy of the Government with regard to food production. We want the policy of the Government with regard to food production to be decided in this House and not by local arbitrators. It is to that purpose, and that purpose only, that the Amendment is directed. We propose to leave the question of the whole or portion as it is in this Bill. We simply want to make it quite clear that the policy of the Board shall be decided by the Board and that the appeal, if there is one, shall be to this House and nowhere else. The words to which we really object are

"whether it is undesirable in the interest of food production."

The Amendment is intended to remove those words and to substitute for them words which will show that the policy of the Board in regard to food production shall be accepted.

Surely the right hon. Gentleman does not realise that the case put by the Minister in charge of the Bill can only be met by words of that kind. You compel a man to indicate that by break- ing up certain land it will result in less food, not more. He has to approach it from that point of view as applied to a particular piece of land. In no other way can the question be raised.

I do not mind the question feeing raised in that way, but I do mind the question being raised definitely with regard to policy under the words

"in the interest of food production."

I happen to have been thinking about this question this morning with regard to the farms of Aylesbury. Some of them are splendid grass land, and under the policy of some future Board of Agriculture they might take hold of one of these farms for dairying as an illustration of what might be done by feeding stock on arable land instead of grass land and make it an experiment of milk production on arable land.

Certainly. If the Board of Agriculture for the time being desires to make its experiment it certainly can. I have been present during the whole of the Debate on Part IV., while the right hon. Gentleman, no doubt in the course of his official duties, has been elsewhere. I do not complain of his absence at all. The whole ground on which this Bill has been discussed in this House, and on which, so far as it has been accepted, it has been accepted by the majority of Members, is that in return for giving the farmer a guarantee that prices during the period for which the Bill operates shall not revert to what they were fifteen or twenty years ago, the Board of Agriculture for the time being shall have very large powers of interfering with the cultivation of land and take observations and make experiments with public money, so that proper use may be made of the land in the interest of food production.

My right hon. Friend is laying down the law with very great decision, but there is not a word in this Clause which authorises the Department to take a farm in order to experiment upon it. This Clause only enables the Board of Agriculture to interfere with and take possession of land for certain clearly defined purposes, namely, failure on the part of the owner or occupier on the one hand or unwillingness on the part of the owner or occupier on the other hand to use it for what the Board decide to be good production. There is not a word here which would justify the Board taking the land for the purposes of experiments.

When the Bill left this House it gave the widest possible powers to the Board of Agriculture. It is just because we now see that there is a spirit opposite to restrict the powers of the Board and to prevent them doing things which were certainly included in the very general powers that we are proposing this Amendment. If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the beginning of Clause 9 as the Bill left this House, he will see that it reads:

"If in any case they are of opinion that any land is not being cultivated in such manner as the Board think best in the interests of the country."

Surely the right hon. Gentleman will admit, if he looks at those words, that it would be eligible for them to say that in the general interests of the country this farm, instead of being cultivated as it is, it may be, under grass, should be cultivated in a different manner and should use it as a demonstration of what should be done.

Those were most general words, which would enable any future Board of Agriculture to say that, in the general interests of the country—there are no other limiting words at all—it is desirable that certain things should be done on this land. That provision was altered in another place, and the words are considerably narrowed. We have accepted an Amendment which considerably narrows them. Instead of the splendid powers which were given, now nothing can be done except in two particular cases. That has been accepted, and, in my opinion, it is a very great concession to the wishes which were expressed in another place. Then we come to the proviso as to the appeal, and we now find—I have listened to these Debates very attentively—that a great deal of what the President of the Board has said in previous speeches in discussing the Bill will be undone by this, proviso. He has said—and we have admired him for saying it—over and over again, that he did not think any appeal should lie to any local arbitrator or any arbitrator appointed by the president of the Surveyors' Institute or any other body which would in any way affect the policy of the Board. It is clear that a question of policy—namely, the question whether it is in the interest of food production or not that certain action should be taken—will undoubtedly come before the local arbitrator unless the Amendment just moved is accepted. There is no doubt that the arbitrator who would be called in would be a local arbitrator, and it would be claimed, with some plausibility, that no one except a man acquainted with the local custom of the country could be an arbitrator in such a case. It simply means that the wishes of the local arbitrator with regard to the local use of land which has prevailed in the past shall overrule what we believe will be found, in fact, generally to be the more enlightened policy of the Board of Agriculture for the time being. As I pointed out, we leave the rest of the Amendment as it was made in another place, giving this very wide appeal to the local arbitrator which the President of the Board has opposed more than once, but we do want the question of policy cut out, because we say that the place where policy in agricultural matters should be determined is this House, that the President of the Board should be responsible for his policy to this House, and that no appeal on policy shall lie to the local arbitrator. In our opinion the Amendment which the Government propose to accept weakens the power of the Clause. I think it will be found to be so when the actual appeals are taken under the Amendment they propose to accept. That, to a large extent, makes Part IV. of the Bill nugatory, and very largely undoes the splendid things the President has said as to using Part IV. when it is put into an Act of Parliament.

I desire to support the arguments addressed to the House by the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. I agree with him in his summing up of the situation by saying that both the President of the Board and the Secretary of State for the Colonies have accepted the principle that the policy of the Government ought not to be submitted to an Agricultural Holdings Act arbitrator. The House has only to hear that proposition stated to say at once that they will not agree to this proposal. If the Government in solemn conclave should decide that arable dairying land should be greatly extended in this country in the interest of food production, to say that on the question as to whether any particular farm which is now a grass dairying farm, an arbitrator should be called in to say whether he thinks it is in the interests of food production that on that farm a cow should be fed off grass or off arable land is ridiculous. The fact that the Agricultural Holdings Act gives a final appeal to a County Court judge on the question of policy does not seem to me to improve the position. I read the Clause, and speaking merely as a lawyer, I say that the Clause as it stands does permit an appeal on a question of policy. The Government may take what action they like about it, but if that is the legal meaning of the Clause, no amount of statements from the Front Bench or any, other bench in this House will alter it. It is for that reason, and that reason only, that I am speaking on the point. If the Clause merely prevented the arbitrator dealing with questions of policy I should say nothing at all, but it does not. Let us look at the words of the. Amendment. This is the question to be referred to the arbitrator—

"Whether it is undesirable in the interest of food production that the change should apply to any portion of the land included in the notice."

How can any man in his senses, even if he is not a lawyer, get up and say that the question in regard to the land included in the notice, namely, whether it is desirable or not desirable in the interest of food production to have arable dairying land instead of grass-bearing land, is not included? Of course, it is included. Supposing the arbitrator is a gentleman—and there are such arbitrators in this country— with local experience, who does not believe in the new-fangled arable dairying, and who thinks it is all nonsense when people say it might double the production of food for home consumption while not lessening the amount of fodder grown for animal consumption. There are plenty of people like that. Supposing there are 50 acres on the farm scheduled to be broken up. He says, "I am not going to have any of this new-fangled nonsense! I know quite well that we shall get more milk off this land if it is under grass and not under arable."

I know that. I know that as a general rule that is not the way. I know that they are a set of men who do their work extraordinarily well; but it is quite impossible in human nature, if a man has a really strong opinion as to the wisdom or unwisdom of a par- ticular course of industry, for him not to be influenced by that fact in dealing with such questions as these, and that is where you get the question of policy coming in. On this Amendment it would not be in order to propose an alternative that I have handed in, but, as illustrating my meaning, I will read an alternative view which I believe is the intention of the Mover of the Amendment. I suggest that the Clause should read

"or whether the particular land included in the notice or any and what portion thereof is unsuited to the particular cultivation to which the notice requires it to be applied."

That describes a purely agricultural question, not a question of policy, but a question as to whether that land is suited to that cultivation. Take the illustration which I gave in the initial Debate of a meadow which is scheduled to be broken up. The farmer says that meadow is peculiarly liable to flooding in winter and therefore ought not to be arable. That is just precisely the question which rightly should be arbitrated upon, and the type of question which will be covered by my words. The advantage of my words is that they exclude every word from the Clause which has anything to do with policy. What brings the question of policy into the Clause is these words, "undesirable in the interests of food production." That is what leaves to the arbitrator the duty of considering whether the proposal is desirable in the interests of food production. That is a twofold question. We want to leave the question of the suitability of the land to the proposed use and to exclude the decision as to what the proposed policy shall be. I am not desiring to attack the policy of the Lords in this Amendment. I accept that policy as defined by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Prothero) and my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long) as one limited to this question of good husbandry and the suitability of the land for the particular purpose. So limited, I merely wish to alter this language in this small way in order to carry out what we are told is the object of the Lords Amendment—a very simply course and not hostile either to the Lords or to the Government. I agree that the Bill received very thorough consideration in the Lords and I think every hon. Member ought to echo what was Said on the other benches as to the great knowledge and experience shown by those in the Lords who discussed it. I appreciate the whole of that, but I suggest, as a lawyer, that this language does not carry out the purpose of the Amendment.

I think it would shorten this discussion if we could have the opinion of the Attorney-General as to whether or not the Amendment, in the form in which it has come from the House of Lords, precludes a decision on broad agricultural policy. I heard almost the whole of the Debate in the House of Lords, and wish every hon. Member could have heard it. I gathered from it that the position really was this. The appeal as between the owner, the occupier, and the Board on an questions of agricultural policy was excluded The Board was to initiate, it was to be the guide, philosopher, and friend as far as general agricultural policy was concerned, and it was not to interfere with the ordinary agricultural administration carried on in any particular locality. If that was interfered with in the opinion of the owner or the occupier it was to be referred to an arbitrator. I am glad that on second thoughts the President of the Board has admitted that there is a case for an appeal. On the Report stage in this House Amendments designed to this end by my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) were not accepted. In the interests of corn production as a whole this really is an extremely important point. After all, if this Bill is to be made a success one must exhibit confidence in the landlord, and also in the occupier, which will be ensured by giving this appeal on all administrative Acts, if only the Attorney-General can tell us that on a question of agricultural policy the Amendment does not apply, because I am quite sure that in the other place, after a long discussion, in which I believe the Lord Chancellor himself took part, it was intended that national agricultural policy should be excluded. As to where you are to draw the line between actual policy and actual administration is for legal authorities to determine, but it appears to me that the efficency or inefficiency of the policy may depend on administration to a very large extent. That is a matter of the drafting of the Amendment. In my opinion the Amendment draws the dividing line, and if the Attorney-General can tell us so I am sure he will meet the opposition to the Amendment.

I cannot help thinking that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Acland) and my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Scott) are quite unduly apprehensive as to the possible interpretation of these words to which they take exception. It is perfectly obvious to me that they are not intended to apply in a general sense as affecting the national policy of food production which it is the whole object of the Bill to promote, but are intended to apply ad hoc to the particular farm in question, and, indeed, to the particular portion of the farm to which they have reference. I deprecate very much the suggestion as a suitable alternative that the test should be whether the particular land, that is the portion of a farm, is unsuitable for the cultivation prescribed. I welcome these words, because it is perfectly clear to me that you cannot put a portion of any agricultural holding into a watertight compartment and judge according to the character of that particular portion as to whether it is or is not desirable in the interests of food production. To obtain the maximum of production on an ordinary mixed farm you must maintain the economic balance of the farm. There is no one who really knows the true food productive capabilities of the land, and the true economy of food production of that land, better than the occupier, who has been possibly for many years in occupation of the land, and also to some extent the owner, at any rate the owner of the older type, who not only knows the capabilities of his estate but has some practical experience of farming. I do not want to see even the Board of Agriculture or any Committee or Board sitting in London decide as to whether a portion of a holding in Gloucestershire or Worcester is or is not going to be more fit for food production if it is ploughed up rather than left in grass. I -already look with some apprehension upon the somewhat officious activity of some War Agricultural Committee in this connection. In my part of Gloucestershire I see people coming down from the Cotswold Hills into the Vale of Severn, about which they know absolutely nothing, and I find them deciding to plough up pasture which has been down for more than a hundred years with a view to its producing more food than it is producing to-day, in spite of the fact that we have a rainfall almost twice what prevails in the districts from which these gentlemen come—a very important factor. If the Board used its influence and its educative activities in the direction of insisting on the improvement of that grass land by fertilisers and otherwise instead of ploughing it up with a view to the possibly increased production of the land, which we who live on the spot know is unobtainable, they would be doing far more useful work than in trying to legislate in respect of land of which they have no personal knowledge whatever.

I have been waiting anxiously to hear whether this arbitrator is to be in power in twelve months' time. Amongst the Lords Amendments there is one which says the Defence of the Realm Act is to come to an end, and that means that all these things may come into force, before the end of the war—"twelve months or the end of the War whichever comes first." If that Amendment is going to be accepted—if they are to come in before the end of the War—they are most important. If they do not come in until after the War is over, they are not so important. I do not like the arbitrator at all. I do not think we want an arbitrator. The Board of Agriculture ought to know its business on this question. The appeal to arbitration means great delay. We have come across difficulties which Ministers have had to meet in producing extra crops, and so on, and if you delay it for a couple of months it means probably that the land does not come into cultivation at all before the next harvest. If this further Amendment is to be accepted it becomes of great importance to limit the arbitrator's powers as far as possible and to limit the number of people who desire to go to arbitration as far as possible, and on that point, whether the powers of the Defence of the Realm Act are to come to an end twelve months hence or not, will depend my vote entirety all through. I shall vote against the arbitrator as a whole and I shall vote in favour of the curtailment of his powers so as to make people less likely to go to him if this is to remain. If it is not to remain it is a matter of small importance, and after the War we shall have time to think over things.

Amendment to the Lords Amendment negatived.

Lords Amendment agreed to.

Lords Amendments:

7.0 P.M.

Leave out Sub-section (2) and insert instead thereof the words, "Where any notice is served on a tenant a copy of the notice shall at the same time be served on the landlord."—Agreed to.

In Sub-section (3), leave out the words "as required by the Board."—Agreed to.

At the end of Sub-section (3) insert the words, "If within three months after the Board have entered on any land, the person who was in occupation of the land at the time of the entry so requires, a record of the condition of the buildings, fences, gates, roads, drains, ditches, and cultivation of the land, shall be made within three months after the date of the requisition by a person to be appointed in default of agreement by the President of the Surveyors' Institution; and, in default of agreement, the costs of making such record shall be borne by the Board and the person so previously in occupation in equal portions.

Where the Board have entered on any land under this provision they shall pay to the outgoing tenant such amount as would have been due or payable by way of compensation on account of crops, tillages, or other matters by the incoming tenant, and the amount so payable shall in default of agreement be determined by arbitration under this Part of this Act."

In my opinion this is a privileged Amendment. The first paragraph of it imposes a charge, or may impose a charge. Although possibly only a small charge, still it is a charge upon the public funds to the extent of half the cost of making a record. The second paragraph also imposes a charge. It says that the Board

"shall pay to the outgoing tenant such amount as would have been due or payable by way of compensation, etc."

That imposes a charge. Therefore, the whole of this Amendment is really a privileged Amendment. It is open to the House, if the House thinks fit, to forego the question of privilege and to assent to these Amendments.

I hope the House will waive its privilege with regard to the first of these two Amendments. It is quite true that this may impose a charge upon the Board, but the Board always takes a record, and the only difficulty is that the Boards own record may not be considered sufficiently independent to be of value to the owner or the occupier. So far from its necessarily imposing a charge upon the taxpayer, it will very likely halve the expense which the Board would in any case incur. The Board always takes a record, and under this Amendment possibly the person previously in occupation would bear an equal proportion of the expense. I think it is an advisable thing to have a record. Therefore, I hope the House will waive its privilege and agree to the Lords Amendment.

Would the right hon. Gentleman indicate what course he proposes to take in regard to the second paragraph?

I hope the House will not waive its privilege in that case because the Amendment itself requires the Board to pay the outgoing valuation payable by the owner, even if the Board's entry may be at a very much later date. On its merits I dislike the second Amendment, and I should not, therefore, urge the House to waive its privilege.

The way I would put it would be to amend the Lords Amendment by leaving out the second paragraph, and to put the Question, "That the second paragraph stand part of the Lords Amendment."

I should like to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has considered Sub-section (6), paragraph ( b ), which provides that the Board may recover from the person then entitled to resume occupation of the land such amount as represents the value to him of all acts of cultivation, or adaptation for cultivation, executed by the Board? The Board in the Bill has already taken powers to recover from the person entitled to re-occupy the land of which the Board have taken possession for the purpose of superior cultivation, the value of the acts of cultivation, etc., effected by the Board. It seems to me that in the second paragraph of this Amendment the Lords have-considered that if it is just on the one hand it is also just on the other hand, and that at the commencement of the period when the Board takes occupation of any land they should pay to the person whom they dispossess, that is, to the outgoing tenant, such amount as would have been due or payable by way of compensation on account of crops, tillage, or other matters by the incoming tenant. The Board, when they come in are, in fact, the tenants, and when they come out the Board admit that they are the tenant. When they come out they insist upon the person who is resuming possession paying to the Board the value of their acts of cultivation, and so forth, in accordance with the usual practice of law. But the right hon. Gentleman appears to say that what is sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander; that the Board are always to recover when there is anything due to them, but when there is anything due to the outgoing tenant, when the Board goes in and takes possession, then he appears to disagree with the Lords Amendment. On the question of privilege which you, Mr. Speaker, have put so clearly before the House, I am amazed that under this guise the Board should appear to object to an Amendment which is simply on the face of it dealing equitably with a case where the Board in their discretion and their superior knowledge decide that it is necessary for them to dispossess some tenant. On that question they are clearly under the Bill entitled to recover moneys when there is anything due to them, and yet, when an Amendment is put in in another place to say that when anything is due from the Board to anybody else, it shall be paid, the ordinary custom of agriculture is not to be followed.

My point was this: Supposing a tenant leaves a holding, and the owner owes him the outgoing valuation, years may elapse under this Clause, years after the termination of that agreement, and yet the Board would have to pay whenever they enter. That is why I object to it.

Is the point I was making met in any other part of the Bill? If it is merely the lapse of time the right hon. Gentleman objects to, will he move such an Amendment to the Lords Amendment as will meet my case?

If this Clause were couched in language which we could accept, and it did not err in that respect, it would be merely declaratory of powers we have already taken in the Bill.

Will the right hon. Gentleman show me in the Bill what part applies to the payment by the Board, when they turn out a tenant, of the valuation which would be payable by an ordinary ingoing tenant? I do not think there is any provision of that sort, unless it is in Sub-section (7) of Clause 9, which says:

"Any person who is interested in any land in respect of which any notice is served or order made under this Section or of which possession is taken under this Section and who suffers any loss by reason of the exercise of the powers conferred by this Section shall, if he makes a claim for the purpose within such time, not being less than one year, after the exercise of the powers as may be prescribed by the Board, be entitled to be paid by the Board such amount as represents the loss."

I do not know whether that is the Clause.

That is the Clause, and we have been told that that would cover the outgoing valuation.

Would not paragraph (2), Sub-section (3) of Clause 9 apply—namely,

"Any such Order of the Board may contain such provisions as the Board thinks fit for adjusting the relations of landlord and tenant where the tenancy is determined."

That is only between landlord and tenant.

Question, "That the second paragraph stand part of the Lords Amendment," put, and negatived.

Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (4), after the word "or," insert the words "with the consent of the owner."—Agreed to.

In Sub-section (5), at the end, insert, "(7) If at any time after a contract of tenancy of any land has been created by the Board the owner of the land requires the Board to withdraw, the Board shall so withdraw as soon as reasonably may be."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

May we have some explanation about this? It looks as if the owner at any time where the Board has taken land for the purpose of improving its cultivation can evict the Board at any moment.

This will only happen where we put in a tenant under a contract of tenancy. If that is so, obviously there is no reason whatever why the Board, having put in the tenant, should want to go on acting as landlord if the landlord wishes to resume his own duties, powers and privileges. Therefore, as soon as we created the tenancy of a new holding, and the new holding is in working order, if the landlord wishes to resume, he can do so as soon as possible.

We are grateful for that explanation, tout it is a big and strong power and does not give the Board any power to remain five minutes after they have settled a new tenant if the owner requires them to withdraw. The Amendment is not that the owner of the land may require the Board to continue the contract of tenancy, which is one thing. The terms of the Amendment are that the owner of the land may require the Board to withdraw. It does not give them the power to say, "No; we only took this land after very careful consideration. The owner has had the power of appealing. He has used it, and failed in his appeal. We have cultivated this land ourselves for a year or two. Now we propose to get it settled with somebody else as a holder. The owner has consented to our doing that, and the moment that consent is given he compels us to get out, although we may have the best reasons for wanting to see how this man is going to farm for a year or two, and we have not only to conclude his contract of tenancy, but to cease our occupation altogether and allow the land possibly to go back into its initial stage." There is no proviso as to their being satisfied that there is a proper state of cultivation. The owner has the absolute power. The Board have let the land, and immediately they have let it, "as soon as reasonably may be"—these are the only covering words—the owner has the power to make them get out. There ought to be some proviso that if the Board think it necessary for good cultivation to continue the arrangement that has been made they can do so. I agree that what a man has consented to if he changes his mind he ought to be given the right of dissenting from, but in this case he consents to one thing and he is given the power of dissenting from a totally different thing. You have just said that the land shall only be let if he consents. Therefore, if he changes his mind in varying circumstances, one might imagine that you might give him the power to say, "I am no longer of the same opinion. I do not want the land let to someone else." That might be quite reasonable, but the power that is given is a totally different one, not the power to conclude a tenancy, but to say to the Board of Agriculture, "Get out!" I do not want that power given.

The right hon. Gentleman is labouring under some misapprehension. In Sub-section (4) he will see that the Board may let the land or any part thereof for a term not exceeding five years on such terms and conditions as the Board think fit. Suppose that the Board let the land for five years. Surely it is quite reasonable to tell the landlord, and if the landlord says, "I want to resume my management and my duty," it is only reasonable that he should be allowed to do so. What advantage is it to the country for the Board to remain in the nominal position of landowner when the landowner himself wants to resume possession and the tenant has been put in by the Board for a period of years?

Lords Amendment agreed to.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (6), paragraph ( a ), after the word "withdrawing," insert the words "except where the withdrawal is required by the owner of the land."—Agreed to.

At the end of paragraph ( a ), insert the words "and such notice shall be given not less than six months previous to the determination of the occupation by the Board, and shall expire on one of the half-yearly days customary in the district where the land is situate."

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, to leave out the word "six," and to insert instead thereof the word "three"; also to leave out the words "determination of the occupation," and to insert instead thereof the word "withdrawal."

The term six months seems unreasonably long, but with the Amendment which I have proposed I am willing to agree to the Lords Amendment.

In reference to the period of notice, in the Bill as it was there was only one month's notice. I pointed out in Committee that that seemed to be an impossible position, and I asked that the notice should terminate on one of the half-yearly days customary in the district, and that has now been agreed to. I also asked for a six months' period. That is only half the time that is customary. Usually with these annual tenancies, which are either Lady Day or Michaelmas tenancies, twelve months' notice has to be given. Now the President asks that only three months' notice should be given. In view of the fact that the notice has to terminate on one of the customary days, I do not think that it is very material whether it is six months or three months, but I think that it should be six.

I think when I moved this Amendment on behalf of the hon. Member for the Horncastle Division that the President said that he would accept it, and I understood that the period of six months was then agreed to.

Amendment to the Lords Amendment agreed to.

Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Lords Amendment:

In Sub-section (7), leave out the words "if he makes a claim for the purpose within such time not being less than one year after the exercise of the power as may be prescribed by the Board."

I will ask the House to disagree with the Lords Amendment, and will then propose an Amendment to the Sub-section.

Lords Amendment disagreed with.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (7), to leave out the words "within such time," and to insert instead thereof the words "before the expiration of such period."

On that it appears to me that it will be quite impossible for anyone to tell what would be the result of the Board's action within a period of one year, and I think that the Lords were perfectly right in leaving out those words for that reason. If the limit of twelve months is to be kept in, within which a claim must be made, it will really deny to the persons aggrieved any substantial right of making claims against the Board at all. The ordinary rotation is a four-crop rotation, and in this case whatever the Board's instructions may be as to cultivation, the person who has an interest in the land has got to make a claim within twelve months as to what is the loss involved in carrying out the orders of the Board. I do not know whether the President is going to accept the later Amendments. There are several at the end of the Sub-section which are of great importance. Of course, they would have a bearing on the matter. The period of one year during which claims for compensation should be made should be extended very considerably.

The proposal is that the period should be not less than one year after the exercise of the powers as may be prescribed by the Board.

Amendment agreed to.

Lords Amendments:

After the word "amount," insert the words "or amounts by way of periodical payments or otherwise."—Agreed to.

After the word "as" ["such amount as"], insert the word "may."—Agreed to.

In Sub-section (7) leave out the word "represents" ["as represents the loss"],. and insert instead thereof the word "represent."—Agreed to.

After the word "loss" ["represent the loss"], insert the words "on making a claim as prescribed, at least a year from the occurrence of the loss to be allowed for making the claim."—Disagreed with.

At the end insert the words, "Provided that in the case of a claim for a notice requiring any grass land to be ploughed the time to be prescribed by the Board shall be such that a claim may be made at any time up to the thirty-first day of December, nineteen hundred and twenty-six."

I beg to move, "That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This is one of the Amendments which I regard as of some importance, and at all events one which modifies my view of the President's earlier proposal. The date of the expiry of the guarantee, in Clause 2 of the Bill, is 1922, and in another place it is suggested that with regard to any notice requiring grass land to be ploughed up the owner should be entitled to make a claim from the Board within any period up to the 31st day of December, 1926—that is to say, he should be allowed a period of four years from the end of the last period settled under Clause 2 of the Bill to ascertain what is the detriment and damage caused to him by carrying out the policy of the Board. What would happen is really very easy. to follow if you consider the dates. It certainly takes a good deal of time to know what would happen to land which has been formerly grass land, and which has been ploughed up under the agricultural policy of this Bill, which maintains that it should be under arable cultivation until 1922, and that, we must assume, will be some time after the termination of the War— some considerable time—and, when these guaranteed prices lapse, no further guarantee is available for the farmer. There may be a very considerable drop in the price of wheat and it will not be possible to continue that arable land under cultivation. The farmer may be deprived of the practical use of the land for a considerable number of years, and then he would have to incur the expense of putting it down to grass again. Perhaps he might have to incur considerable expense in clearing away weeds and rubbish that have been growing for a year or two. Whatever time may be prescribed by the Board in such a case, certainly it should not be less than four years after the expiration of the last guaranteed period under Clause 2 of this Bill. Therefore, when we come to the real point, we find that the President disagrees with the Lords Amendment, although he has just asked me, on a previous Amendment, whether it does not completely satisfy the point that the period should not be less than a year and that it should be left in the Board's hands to prescribe such period as it thinks fit. Yet we have a practical point of this kind put in an Amendment, and the President says he does not agree with 31st December, 1926, in such a case as this. It is quite clear that this Amendment ought to be insisted upon, as it only asks for what is perfectly reasonable, namely, that a sufficient time should elapse after the end of the operation of the Clause, so that the owner or occupier should be able to assess the damage. But on that the President says that the owner must put in his claim before it is reasonably possible for him to assess the damages. I ask the House to agree with the Lords in their Amendment.

I am not quite certain that I fully understand the effect of the Amendment which was carried just now. The effect of this Amendment of the Lords which it is proposed should be disagreed with is that the farmer would have to plough up certain grass land, and in two or three years' time, when he has been put to considerable loss, the land not having produced what it ought under the plough, he will be put to considerable expense in order to go back to grass. Is he then able to go to the Board of Agriculture and claim damages or is he not? It is evident that a year is the wrong time. In a year you cannot tell what is to happen. You plough land in September and sow wheat in October. This year you cannot tell what is the effect of the second crop to be followed by another straw crop, it may be in two or three years. The Lords have put in an Amendment to say that you may make your claim at any time up to the end of the year 1926. I do not understand why the claim must be made within a year. A man may not know whether the land is going to be needed or not, yet he is to make his claim within such time as the Board may prescribe. If that is so, I do not think the time should be left to the Board, and surely Parliament ought to put in the Bill a reasonable time so that anyone who, after acting under the instructions of the Board, has made a loss, may apply to the Board to be recompensed. I do not myself attach any particular importance to the year 1926, but I think a date ought to be put in.

The Amendment before us is one to allow claims for compensation, in cases where the Board has ordered grass land to be ploughed up, to be made at any time before the 31st December, 1926. The objection to that is that it hangs up the claim for compensation for so long a period, and that is the sole ground on which I object to it. I think that a valuer could calculate prospectively the loss that would be incurred, and would be able to do so on the question under the Clause. Therefore, I think it would be inadvisable to allow so long a period during which a claim for compensation is to be put in.

The right hon. Baronet is going back to the previous Amendment, which stated that the period was to be not less than one year, or such period as the Board might prescribe.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendment disagreed with.

In Sub-section (8), leave out the words, "a single arbitrator under and in accord- ance with the provisions of the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908: Provided that for the purpose of any arbitration under this provision the arbitrator shall be nominated, in default of agreement by the President of the Surveyors' Institution," and insert instead thereof the words, "arbitration under this part of this Act."—Agreed to.

Leave out Sub-sections (9), (10), and (11).—Agreed to.

CLAUSE 10.—(Protection of Crops, etc., from Damage by Rabbits and Vermin.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may in any case where they are satisfied that crops, trees or pasturage are being damaged by reason of the failure of an occupier of land to destroy sufficiently the rabbits or vermin on the land in his occupation, after giving to the occupier such opportunity of destroying the rabbits or vermin as in the opinion of the Board is reasonable, authorise any person to enter on the land and kill and take the rabbits or vermin thereon, and the Board may recover from the occupier, summarily as a civil debt, the net cost incurred by the Board in connection with the action so taken.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (1), after the word "occupier" [" the occupier at such opportunity "], insert the words "and owner." —Agreed to.

After the word "authorise" ["reasonable, authorise any person"], insert the words "in writing."—Agreed to.

After Clause 10, insert the following

NEW CLAUSE.—(General Provisions Applicable to Part IV.)

(1) Arbitrations under this part of this Act shall be before a single arbitrator under and in accordance with the provisions of the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908: Provided that the arbitrator shall be nominated, in default of agreement, by the President of the Surveyors' Institution.

(2) The Board may, with respect to any area consisting of one or more counties or county boroughs, authorise any body of persons constituted in the prescribed manner, to exercise on behalf of the Board, subject to such appeal to the Board as may be prescribed, any of the powers of the Board under this Part of this Act, and may if they think fit prescribe the procedure and the method of authentication of any notice or other instrument issued by any such body: Provided that the regulations shall provide that the body so constituted shall in the first instance consist of or comprise the persons who immediately before this Part of this Act comes into operation were acting as members of the War Agricultural Executive Committees, if any, constituted under the Defence of the Realm Regulations for the counties and county boroughs comprised in the area.

(3) The powers under the Defence of the Realm Regulations exerciseable by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries with a view to maintaining the food supply of the country with respect to the matters dealt with in this Part of this Act shall cease to operate at the expiration of one year from the passing of this Act or at the termination of the present war whichever is the earlier and thereupon this Part of this Act shall come into operation.

(4) In this Part of the Act the expression "prescribed" means prescribed by regulations made by the Board.—Agreed to.

CLAUSE 11.—(Regulations.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall, in addition to any special power to make regulations given to them under this Act, have power to make regulations generally for the purposes of carrying this Act into effect and in particular—

( a ) for prescribing the manner in which claims for payment under Part I. of this Act are to be made, and the evidence to be required in support of any such claim; and

( b ) for requiring the Agricultural Wages Board to define the benefits or advantages not being benefits or advantages prohibited by law which may be reckoned as payment of wages in lieu of payment in cash, and the value at which they are to be so reckoned, and for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board to limit or prohibit the reckoning of benefits or advantages as payment of wages in lieu of cash, and for enabling the Agricultural Wages Board, on the application of any employer or workman, to determine any question which may arise as to the value of

( c ) for requiring the Agricultural Wages Board to define for the purposes of any differential rate for overtime the employment which is to be treated as overtime employment.

Lords Amendments:

In paragraph ( b ), alter the word "Board" ["Board, on the application of"], insert the words "or a District Wages Committee."—Disagreed with.

In paragraph ( c ) leave out the words "Agricultural Wages Board," and insert instead thereof the words "District Wages Committees."—Disagreed with.

CLAUSE 12.—(Powers of Entry and Inspection.)

Any person authorised in that behalf by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries or by any person or body of persons exercising any powers of the Board on their behalf may, for the purpose of carrying this Act into effect, on the production (if so required) of his authority, enter on and inspect any land.

If any person prevents or obstructs the entry for the purpose of this Act upon any land of any person authorised under this Section, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.

Lords Amendments:

Leave out the words "person or" ["by any person or body"].—Agreed to.

After the word "land" ["inspect any land"], insert the words, "The occupier shall in all such cases be served with notice of the date on which the inspection is to take place."—Agreed to.

CLAUSE 13.—(Appointment and Powers of Officers.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may appoint such officers as they think necessary for the purpose of investigating complaints and otherwise securing the proper observance of Part II. of this Act, and any officer so appointed shall, if the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries so determine, act under the directions of the Agricultural Wages Board.

Lords Amendment:

After the word "Board" ["directions of Agricultural Wages Board "] insert the words "or any District Wages Committee."—Disagreed with.

CLAUSE 14.—(Power to Require Annual Agricultural Returns.)

(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may, in order to obtain such information as is necessary for the purpose of the proper exercise by the Board of their powers under this Act, by notice served by post or otherwise on the occupier of any agricultural land or the person having the management of any such land, require him to make to such person, within such time and in such form as the Board may prescribe, a return in writing with respect to the cultivation of that land, the crops and live stock thereon, and the owner thereof.

(2) No individual return or part of a return made under this Section shall be published or disclosed except for the purposes of a prosecution or other proceedings under this Act.

(3) If any person—

( a ) refuses or without lawful excuse neglects to make a return under this Section to the best of his knowledge and belief; or

( b ) makes or causes to be made a return which is false in any particular; or

( c ) discloses or publishes contrary to the provisions of this Section any individual return, or part of a return;

he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, or, if the Court is of opinion that the offence was committed wilfully, to imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for a period not exceeding three months.

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (1) leave out the words "by post or otherwise."—Agreed to.

Leave out the words 'to such person" ["to such person within such"].—Agreed to.

After the word "form" ["and in such form as the Board"], insert the words "and to such person."—Agreed to.

CLAUSE 16.—(Definitions.)

( e ) the expression "quarter" means, in the case of wheat, four hundred and eighty imperial pounds, and in the case of oats three hundred and twelve imperial pounds.

Lords Amendment:

At the end of paragraph ( e ) add the words, "Any notice under this Act may be served on the person to whom it is to be given either personally or by registered post."—Agreed to.

CLAUSE 17.—(Application to Scotland and Ireland.)

(1) This Act shall apply to Scotland with the following modifications:

( a ) The Board of Agriculture for Scotland shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries;

( b ) Sub-section (1) of the Section of this Act relating to the establishment of a Wages Board shall not apply to Scotland, and in lieu thereof the provisions contained in the Second Schedule of this Act shall be deemed to be incorporated in Part II. of this Act;

( c ) The Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, shall be substituted for the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1908: Provided that where under this Act the Board of Agriculture for Scotland is a party to an arbitration, the sheriff principal of the sheriffrom in which the land affected is situate shall, in the Second Schedule to the first-mentioned Act, be substituted for the Board;

( d ) The sheriff principal of the sheriffdom in which the land affected is situate shall be substituted for the President of the Surveyors' Institution.

(2) This Act shall apply to Ireland with the following modifications:

( a ) References to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall be construed as references to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland;

( b ) A separate Agricultural Wages Board shall be established for Ireland; and the separate Board so established shall be substituted for the Agricultural Wages Board; a reference to an adequate rate shall be substituted for the reference to the rate of at least twenty-five shillings a week, and the provisions as to the retrospective effect of a minimum rate of wages for able-bodied men shall not apply, except that the Agricultural Wages Board for Ireland in fixing a minimum rate of wages for able-bodied

( f ) Part IV. of this Act in its application to Ireland shall have effect subject to the following further modifications:

( i ) the powers of entering on and taking possession of land and cultivating the land or adapting it for cultivation may be exercised whether the occupier in default is or is not a tenant; and

( ii ) the provisions with respect to the determination of tenancies shall not apply;

For the purpose of enforcing proper cultivation of land in Ireland the additional provisions set out in the Second Schedule to this Act shall have effect as if they were included in Part IV. of this Act;

( g ) The "Dublin Gazette" shall be substituted for the "London Gazette."

Lords Amendments:

In Sub-section (1) paragraph ( b ), after "(1)" [Sub-section (1)"], insert the words "and Sub-section (2) and the provision to Sub-section (3)."—Disagreed with.

At the end of paragraph ( b ), insert the words, "and references in this Act to the Agricultural Wages Board and to a district wages committee shall be construed as references, respectively, to the Central Committee and the district committee constituted under the provisions of that Schedule."—Disagreed with.

At the end of paragraph ( d ), insert the words, "and an agricultural executive committee and the district thereof shall, respectively, be substituted for a war agricultural executive committee, constituted under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and a county or county borough."— Agreed to.

In Sub-section (2), paragraph ( b ), leave out the words, "a reference to an adequate rate shall be substituted for the reference to," and insert instead thereof, the words, "the provision as to Wages Act."

Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Before those words are put to the House I trust the Chief Secretary for Ireland will make some explanation of the reason why those words have been taken out. The substitution of the words, "the provision as to wages at" 25s. a week and so on does not mean exactly what the words meant that are now proposed to be left out, and I should be very glad to know before we go on any further—before we go to the next Amendment from the other place—for what reason these words were left out.

I submit that the effect of the Bill with regard to Ireland as it was settled is merely made clear by the use of the words proposed in the other place to insert there.

Does this have the effect of removing all direction to the Agricultural Wages Board to find an adequate rate of wages?

No, Sir; it does not have that effect. It is purely a drafting Amendment.

Question put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendments:

Sub-section 2 ( b ), after the word "Ireland" insert the words, "or a District Wages Committee."—Disagreed with.

Leave out the word "said," and insert instead thereof the words "last mentioned."—Agreed to.

Sub-section 2 ( f ), leave out the words "adapting it for cultivation," and insert instead thereof the words "otherwise dealing with it."—Agreed to.

Leave out the word "and," and insert instead thereof the words "the provisions of Sub-section (3) of Section twelve shall not apply, and."

Subject to an Amendment— a purely verbal Amendment—I agree to this Amendment. But I propose an Amendment to substitute 11 for 12. The reason is that one of the Lords Amendments has been negatived, and so the number will not be 12 but 11. I beg to move as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment to leave out "twelve" and insert "eleven."

Amendment to the Lords Amendment agreed to.

Lords Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Lords Amendment:

Leave out the word "second," and insert instead thereof the word "third."— Agreed to.

CLAUSE 18.—(Short Title and Duration.)

(1) This Act may be cited as the Corn. Production Act, 1917.

(2) This Act shall continue in force until the end of the year nineteen hundred and twenty-two, and no longer, unless meanwhile Parliament makes provision for the continuation thereof, but the expiration of this Act shall not affect the right to any payments under Part I. of this Act in respect of wheat and oats of that year or any previous year, or any rights, privileges, obligations, or liabilities acquired, accrued, or incurred under this Act before the date of the expiration thereof, or any penalty, forfeiture, or punishment incurred in respect of any offence committed under this Act before that date, or in respect of any statement or representation made in connection with a claim under this Act, whether the statement, representation, or claim was made before or after that date.

Lords Amendment:

In Sub-section (2), after the word "Act," insert the words "shall except as otherwise provided come into operation at the date of the passing of the Act and." —Agreed to.

FIRST SCHEDULE.—(Constitution, Proceedings, etc., of Wages Board.)

12.—(1) The Agricultural Wages Board may, and if so required by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall, establish district wages committees consisting, subject as hereinafter provided, of persona representing employers or workers engaged in agriculture and constituted in accordance with Regulations made for the purpose by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and acting for such area as the Agricultural Wages Board may determine..

(3) The Agricultural Wages Board may refer to a district wages committee for their report and recommendations any matter which they think it expedient so to refer, and may also, if they think fit, delegate to a district wages committee any of their powers and duties under this Act other than their power and duty to fix minimum rates of wages, and, subject to Regulations made by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, authorise any such district wages committee to delegate to a sub-committee thereof any of the powers so delegated to the committee.

(4) Where a district wages committee has been established for any area, it shall be the duty of the committee to recommend to the Agricultural Wages Board minimum rates of wages … applicable to … that area, and no such minimum rate of wages fixed under this Act and no variation or cancellation of such a rate shall have effect within that area unless either the rate or the variation or cancellation thereof, as the case may be, has been recommended by the district wages committee, or an opportunity has been given to the committee to report thereon to the Agricultural Wages Board, and the Agricultural Wages Board have considered the report (if any) made by the committee.

13.—(1) The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries may appoint such number of persons (including women) as they think fit to be appointed members of the Agricultural Wages Board or to act as members of district wages committees.

17.—(1) Any officer appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under this Act, and any officer of any Government Department for the time being assisting in carrying this Act into effect, shall have power in pursuance of any special or general directions of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to take proceedings tinder this Act, and the Agricultural Wages Board may also take any such proceedings in the name of any officer appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries for the time being acting under the directions of the Agricultural Wages Board in pursuance of this Act, or in the name of their secretary or any of their officers authorised by them.

(2) Any officer appointed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under this Act, or any officer of any Government Department for the time being assisting in carrying this Act into effect, and the secretary of the Agricultural Wages Board, or any officer of the Agricultural Wages Board authorised for the purpose, may, although not a counsel or solicitor or law agent, prosecute or conduct before a Court of summary jurisdiction any proceedings arising under this Act. In the application of this Schedule to Ireland, references to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries shall be construed as references to the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, and references to the Agricultural Wages Board shall be construed as references to the Agricultural Wages Board for Ireland.

Lords Amendments:

In paragraph 12 (1) leave out from the beginning to the word "subject," and insert instead thereof the words "district wages committees shall consist."—Disagreed with.

After the word "and" ["and constituted"] insert the words "shall be."— Disagreed with.

Leave out from the word "Fisheries" to the end of the paragraph.—Disagreed with.

Paragraph 12 (3), leave out the words "other than their power and duty to fix minimum rates of wages." —Disagreed with.

Leave out the word "authorise."—Disagreed with.

Leave out the word "to," and insert instead thereof the word "may."— Disagreed with.

Leave out the words "so delegated to the committee," and insert instead thereof the words "of the committee under this Act other than the power and duty to fix minimum rates of wages."—Disagreed with.

Leave out paragraph (4).—Disagreed with.

In paragraph 13 (1), after the word "committees," insert the words, "provided that the number of persons so appointed shall not exceed one quarter of the total number of members of the Agricultural Wages Board or of any district wages committee."—Agreed to.

SECOND SCHEDULE.—(Constitution of Agricultural Wages Committees in Scotland.)

5. Subject as hereafter provided, a district wages committee shall, within its district, have the powers and duties conferred and imposed on the Agricultural Wages Board by or under this Act, except any of such powers and duties which the Board may by regulation reserve to and confer and impose on the central com- mittee, and references in this Act to the Agricultural Wages Board shall be construed accordingly as references to district wages committees or the central committee as the case may be.

7. Where a district wages committee fail within a period to be prescribed by the Board to fix minimum rates of wages for time work within the district, the Board shall refer the question of fixing such rates to the central committee, and thereupon the powers and duties of the district wages committee to fix such rates shall, so far as required for the purposes of the reference, be transferred to the central committee, and any rate fixed under such a reference by the central committee after consultation with the district wages committee shall be deemed to be the minimum rate fixed under this Act.

8. Any other question within their jurisdiction under this Act on which a district wages committee fail to agree shall, if the representatives of the employers or the representatives of the workmen on the committee so request in writing, be referred to the central committee by the district wages committee for decision, and any decision by the central committee on such a reference shall be reported to the Board and shall have the like effect and validity as if it were the decision of the district wages committee.

9. The Board may by regulation prescribe the tenure of office and procedure of a district wages committee, so far as certified for the purposes of this Act, and of the central committee and its chairman and officers, and make other necessary provision for the efficient conduct of their business and the authentication of any notice, finding, or other instrument issued by them respectively.

Lords Amendments:

Leave out paragraph 5.—Disagreed with.

Leave out paragraph 7.—Disagreed with.

In paragraph 8, leave out the word "other."—Disagreed with.

After the word "agree," insert the words "not being a question of fixing minimum rates of wages for time-work."— Disagreed with.

In paragraph 9, after the word "business," insert the words "including provision as to sub-committee."—Agreed to.

THIRD SCHEDULE.—(Additional Provisions for the Enforcement of Proper-Cultivation of Land in Ireland.)

3. If in any year the occupier of a holding fails to cultivate the minimum tillage portion of the holding, the Department, after affording him an opportunity of being heard in such manner as may be prescribed by Regulations under this Act, shall ascertain how much of the minimum tillage portion he has failed without reasonable cause to cultivate, and shall specify in a certificate under their seal the acreage thereof and the amount which, in their opinion, ought to be paid by way of penalty in respect of such failure as aforesaid, not exceeding five pounds for each acre of the acreage specified in the certificate and not exceeding a proportionate amount for any fraction of an acre so specified.

Upon the making of the certificate the occupier shall become liable to pay to the Department on demand the amount specified therein as aforesaid, and the certificate shall be conclusive evidence of such liability.

Where there has been a change of occupiers during the year, the amount shall be payable by the person who was occupier at the end of the year.

7. For the purpose of this Schedule, except where the context otherwise requires—

( a ) the expression "cultivation" means-tillage, and the expression "cultivate" has a corresponding meaning: Provided that land used for grazing, meadow, or pasture in any year shall be deemed to be cultivated in that year if it was tilled in either of the two years last preceding that year; and

( b ) the expression "arable" means capable of being tilled.

Lords Amendments.

In paragraph 3, after the word "and" insert the words "subject to the provisions of the next following article of this schedule."—Agreed to.

After paragraph 3, insert,

"4. The Department, before making any such certificate shall send a draft thereof to the occupier, and if the occupier within the prescribed time and in the prescribed manner serves a notice of objection to the draft certificate, any questions raised by the notice as to the making of the certificate or as to the particulars specified in the draft, shall be referred to a tribunal designated or constituted by or in accordance with regulations under this Act, and provision shall be made by those regulations for the hearing and determination by the tribunal of the questions so referred to them with power to postpone or stay the making of a certificate or to vary the draft certificate in such manner as seems proper, and generally for regulating the procedure on any such objection. The certificate shall not be made whilst any objection to the draft certificate is pending before the tribunal, and effect shall be given by the Department to any rulings of the tribunal, and, where the draft certificate is varied by the tribunal, the certificate if made by the Department shall be made in accordance with the draft as so varied and not otherwise."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment.—[ Mr. Duke. ]

I trust that my right hon. Friend will reconsider his intention to agree to this Amendment. As was pointed out on a previous occasion, this will open the door to an immense amount of litigation, and I think it was decided by the House that such a door should not be open. Now if he agrees to this Amendment coming down from another place we do what we had previously decided not to do, and that is the reason why I mention it.

The Amendment which has been inserted here has been inserted in consequence of a pledge, and it would be impossible to resist it. I do not think that there is any possibility of litigation arising from the operation of such a reference as is here in question. The tribunal which is proposed to be set up will be set up under Regulations which will be submitted to the House, and will not in any way prejudice judicial proceedings or appeal. People who will be experts on these matters will consider any question in which there is a difference of opinion between the Department and the occupier of land, and I hope that the proceedings will be of the simplest and inexpensive kind. Nothing will be done in the constitution of the tribunals to encourage anything in the nature of delay or expenses.— Agreed to.

Lords Amendment:

In Paragraph 7, leave out the word "and," and insert instead thereof the words, "(b), the expression 'prescribed' means prescribed by regulations under this Act, and."—Agreed to.

Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to certain of their Amendments to the Bill.

Committee nominated of Mr. Acland, Sir Frederick Smith, Mr. John O'Connor, Mr. Prothero, and Captain Sir Beville Stanier.

Two to be the quorum.

To withdraw immediately. — [ Mr. Prothero. ]

Later, —Reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords Amendments reported, and agreed to.

To be communicated to the Lords.—[ Mr. Prothero. ]

Munitions of War Bill

Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith.—[ Mr. Kellaway. ]

Considered accordingly, and agreed to.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Eight o'clock.