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Commons Chamber

Volume 98: debated on Wednesday 24 October 1917

House of Commons

Wednesday, October 24, 1917

Navy and Army Services, Warlike Operations, and Other Expenditure Arising Out of the War, 1917–18 (Supplementary Vote of Credit)

Supplementary Estimate presented of the Sum required to be voted during the year ending 31st March, 1918, for general Navy and Army Services, Warlike Operations, and other Expenditure arising out of the War [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 150.]

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Bagdad Dispatch (Naval Force)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty for what reason was Captain Nunn's report detailing the great part played by the naval forces in the capture of Bagdad, although dated 21st March, 1917, not published until 22nd September, 1917?

There are practical difficulties which stand in the way of rapid publication of official dispatches, and in the case of this dispatch it was decided, after consultation with the War Office, to postpone its publication.

Tonnage (Replacement)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give the House the assurance that British mercantile tonnage is being completed at a more rapid rate than it is being destroyed by hostile activity?

No, Sir. But in the course of the statement which my right hon. Friend the First Lord hopes to make within the next few days, he will deal with the whole question of the unrestricted use of the U-boat, the replacement of tonnage lost thereby, and the interdependent problems connected therewith.

Can I have an answer as to whether British mercantile tonnage is being completed as fast as it is being destroyed? That is a perfectly definite question.

I gave a perfectly definite answer. The answer is, No. The First Lord will give the reasons.

Was the number of steamers reported sunk last Monday as great as, if not greater than, the number on any day during the War?

Beachley Dock

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the hardship inflicted upon the inhabitants of Beachley by eviction from their homes through the place being commandeered for the building of docks; whether he is aware that the villagers were given only eleven days' notice; that it has been found impossible to find other homes; that amongst the villagers are a widow with eight children, the wife of a soldier serving in France, and the widow of a soldier who has died in Mesopotamia; whether it was decided to evict these people without first making arrangements for their transference elsewhere; and whether, in view of the plight of these people and the fact that a large area of best arable land devoted to the production of food has also been commandeered, he will have close and careful inquiries made as to the necessity for the action taken and take steps for the housing of the ejected people?

The establishment of national shipyards was decided to be essential in the national interests, and the site at Beachley was chosen after the most exhaustive consideration of all the circumstances. The tenants were given a fortnight's formal notice to quit, but there was never any intention of executing the notice until they had been afforded an opportunity of finding fresh quarters. Every possible consideration was shown to the tenants, and the local officers cooperated with the Vicar of Chepstow in doing all they could to make conditions as easy as possible for these people. All the evidence goes to show that the officer responsible for the arrangements carried out his duties sympathetically and with the utmost consideration for the interests of the tenants. If my hon. Friend will give me the details of the cases of hardship referred to in the fourth part of his question, I will have inquiry made.

Ukraine

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Ukrainian Rada has been recognised by the Russian Provisional Government; whether the Ukrainian population of the Dual Monarchy and Roumania will be encouraged or allowed to fulfil their desire for union with the Russian Ukraine; and how it is proposed in this case to give effect to the principle that nationalities should decide their own sovereignty?

Nothing would be gained by answering a question which deals with the internal arrangements of Allied countries.

China

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information about the position in China; whether China is allied with this country in the War; and, if so, what belligerent action is being taken by China?

I do not fully understand what the first part of this question means. As regards the second, China is a co-belligerent with us, and in that sense an Ally, and is taking such belligerent action in our support as seems possible to the Chinese Government.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state whether the constitutional position in China is normal, and such as will give no ground for apprehension of difficulty?

Has an official message of welcome such as is customary in other cases been sent to China, and if not to whom was it sent?

Morocco

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information about the condition of Morocco; whether any arrangements have been made or are contemplated to modify the Moroccan Agreement of 1912; and whether the native population of Morocco will be allowed to decide the sovereignty under which they are to live?

His Majesty's Government are not aware that any modification is contemplated in the agreements signed in 1912.

Syria (British Subjects)

asked whether there are any British subjects still resident in Syria and Palestine; and, if so, whether any Report has been received of their treatment and condition?

There are a considerable number of British subjects in Syria. We have little information as to their treatment and condition, but the United States Consular officers have endeavoured to assist them in the past, and the Netherland Consul-General at Beirut was especially requested to report on the subject before he left this country on his way to his post.

Cement Exports (Holland)

asked whether during August and September quantities of cement were loaded into Dutch ships in the Port of London and despatched to Holland; and, if so, what quantities were so exported?

I am unable to give the figures for the export of cement from the Port of London to Holland in Dutch ships during August and September last, but the total exports to Holland from all ports in the United Kingdom during these two months were 18,404 tons, all of which was consigned to the Netherlands Oversea Trust under guarantees against re-export.

The last Dutch official returns show that during the first half of this year not only have there been no exports whatever of cement from Holland to either Germany or Belgium, but that during this period Holland has received from Germany about 90,000 tons of cement or about seven times as much as she obtained from the United Kingdom.

At the present time the export of cement to Holland is prohibited under the Royal Proclamation of the 29th September and no licences are now being issued.

Can the hon. Gentleman state the amount of cement that has been exported from the port of London?

I think that the question was rather about the amount exported in Dutch ships. There might be some difficulty in getting these figures, but I expect that the amount exported from London could be obtained.

Can the hon. Gentleman give a return showing the amount of cement that has been exported from this country to Holland during the last three years?

Interned U-Boats (Spain)

asked whether any action has been taken with regard to the escape of the German U-boats interned in Spain; and, if not, what action is intended?

The question speaks of U-boats in the plural, but only one German submarine has escaped from internment in a Spanish port. His Majesty's Government have expressed to the Spanish Government the concern which the incident had caused them. I feel confident that the measures taken by the Spanish authorities in the case of the other interned submarine will prevent any repetition of it.

Has any suggestion been made to the Spanish Government to intern German merchant ships, which might very easily be taken over by the Spanish Government with compensation?

I cannot see any question more remote from the internment of U-boats than the internment of merchant ships.

Rhodesia (Land Concessions)

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether only those land concessions are valid in Southern Rhodesia which have been submitted for the approval of His Majesty's Secretary of State; and whether any land concessions have been approved by or submitted to His Majesty's Government which, under the signature of Mashonaland chiefs, purport to surrender ownership titles to native lands in Mashonaland situated outside a radius of sixty miles from Buluwayo?

No concession can be regarded as valid which has not been approved by the Secretary of State. I am not aware of any concessions such as are referred to in the last part of the question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is now in a position to state what is the total number of natives of Southern Rhodesia occupying, respectively, the 5,000,000 acres of land which it is proposed to add to the reserves; and what is the number of natives occupying the 6,000,000 acres of land by which it is proposed to reduce the native reserves?

Ex-Tsar and M. Kerensky (Honorary Army Rank)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the ex-Tsar of Russia holds any honorary rank in the British Army; and, if so, whether the Army Council will consider the propriety of conferring the same or some similar rank or position on M. Kerensky?

In answer to the first part of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to a similar question put to me by the hon. Member for West Clare on the 9th July last. It is not proposed at present to recommend any additional appointments of foreigners to honorary rank in the Army.

In view of the very exceptional services of M. Kerensky to the Allies, will the Army Council consider making an exception in his case?

Is it not a fact that the ex-Tzar is still an honorary officer of the British Army, and is not the holding of such a position by a dethroned monarch calculated to give umbrage to an Allied people?

I answered these particular points which were put to me by my hon. Friend on 9th July.

Military Service

East Africa

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, considering that recommendations for good service made by General Northey in his dispatches of 10th March, 1917, for operations in East Africa have been published, he can now see his way to publish the similar recommendations made by Generals Aiken, Wapshawe, Tighe, and others for operations in the early stage of the East African campaign?

All the recommendations brought to notice for operations in East Africa have been published, with the exception of three, which it is proposed to gazette shortly.

Malingering Charge (Stockton)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he received a letter, dated 16th August, 1917, from the hon. Member for North-West Staffordshire, respecting a miner named J. Rowley, of Ball Green, near Stoke-on-Trent; whether he is aware that Rowley was brought before the magstrates at the Stoke-on-Trent Police Court on 12th July, 1917, charged by the military authorities with malingering, when the evidence showed that Rowley had been injured in his back and spine by an accident while employed as a loader at the Whitfield collieries in June, 1914, that he was still in receipt of compensation for the injuries under the Workmen's Compensation Act at the time the case was being tried (12th July, 1917), and that his injuries were such that he could not stand nor walk without the aid of a stiff jacket and walking-stick; whether he is aware that the recruiting medical board, in their examination of Rowley, took away the stiff jacket and walking-stick and put him to stand unsupported in the middle of the room, when he fell down; that one of the board, when Rowley was leaning on his stick, flicked the stick from under him, when Rowley fell on the floor again; whether he is aware that after this treatment Rowley was so ill and exhausted that he kept his bed, being unable to rise at all for some days, and that other doctors gave evidence showing that Rowley was not a malingerer; whether he has inquired into the matter; and whether some satisfactory solatium will be offered to Rowley for the physical and mental suffering and expense caused to him by the treatment referred to?

I received my hon. Friend's letter of the 16th August last, and immediately called for a full report of the case. It was subsequently decided that Rowley should be re-examined by a special medical board, which necessitated delay, and he was then finally rejected. I have only just become aware of this decision, and was about to communicate with my hon. Friend when he put his question down. I will write him fully on the case in a day or two, but I may say that the report I have received does not bear out the ill-treatment to which Rowley is alleged to have been subjected by the recruiting medical board.

Conscientious Objectors

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether John Baxter, Archibald M'C. L. Baxter, Alexander Baxter, William Little, Daniel Maguire, Mark Briggs, Fred Adin, L. Penwright, Harry Paton, Albert E. Sanderson, Garth C. Ballantyne, David R. Gray, L. J. Kirwan, and Thomas P. Harland, conscientious objectors, of New Zealand, who were embarked by force at Wellington, New Zealand, about the commencement of July, are now closely confined at Sling Camp. Salisbury, where they have been kept in irons; and whether it is proposed to send them to France or to have them court-martialled under the instructions which apply to men called up in Great Britain for military service?

I have nothing to add at present to the answer which I gave on the 22nd to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn.

Claim for Release (Avonmouth)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that six sons of Mr. Hill, of Avonmouth, are serving in His Majesty's Army; that their parents are aged and have requested that the oldest, aged thirty-six, should be released to assist them in cultivating their land; and that such request has been refused; and will he reconsider this decision with a view to releasing this man?

I have been in communication with my hon. Friend in regard to this case. This soldier is at present a B1 man and may be placed in a higher category at his next board. His father does not conduct a farm in the ordinary sense of the term; the house is in an acre and a quarter of land. Apart from the land on which the house stands there is a yard, a small orchard and one quarter of an acre garden. There are no live stock and no labour is employed. Under the circumstances I regret this soldier cannot be discharged or transferred to the Reserve.

Does the hon. Gentleman consider it in accordance with the spirit of the Military Service Act that the eldest of six sons should be taken?

Political Meetings (Soldiers on Furlough)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Private Simmons, who has been wounded and lost a foot and is awaiting his discharge from the Army, has been arrested for addressing political meetings and expressing his views on what are the necessary conditions of a permanent peace; whether he is aware that Private Simmons is voicing the opinions of large numbers of soldiers who, as enfranchised citizens, claim the right to have their opinions expressed so that the country may know them; whether officers have been allowed to take part in political contests and be elected to this House; and whether he will state what Private Simmons' present position is?

Private Simmons, who is a serving soldier, was on furlough pending admission to Roehampton Convalescent Hospital for the provision of an artificial foot. During his furlough he contravened the King's Regulations by speaking in public at political meetings. Orders were issued that he should be taken to Roehampton Hospital at once under escort. It is true that officers standing for Parliament have at Various times taken part in political contests, but such cases do not appear to have any bearing on Private Simmons' case. Private Simmons has been satisfactorily fitted with an artificial limb, and will, in the course of a few days, be sent to King George's Hospital for discharge from the Army.

9th Battalion Northampton Regiment

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the officer commanding the 9th Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment now stationed in Norfolk has raised, improperly, the medical categories of about forty soldiers under him, raising the categories, on his own responsibility and against the decision of the doctors, from B2 and B3 and C2 and O3 to B1 and C1; if so, whether he has been in communication with the officer commanding; and, if so, with what result?

The officer commanding this battalion failed to appreciate the fact that B1, B2, and B3, etc., were distinct categories, and not sub-divisions of the same category, and raised the categories of about forty soldiers on his own responsibility. Inquiry was made as soon as this became known, and it was reported on the 12th instant that the orders had been cancelled.

Absentee

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will cause inquiries to be made into the case of John Swift, an Irishman, a victim of unemployment in Dublin, who was sent from Dublin to perform work of national importance in Great Britain; if he is aware that this man left Dublin on 2nd June, 1917, for employment in a London lead works, and, owing to the refusal of the firm to allow him off on Sunday to attend church service and his persistence to do so, he Was dismissed and subsequently found employment in an aeroplane works, where he was arrested as an absentee and handed over to the military, court-martialled at Winchester, and sentenced to two years; and if he will order the immediate discharge of this man, who has been only five months in Great Britain?

I have received a letter from the hon. Member relating to this case. Enquiries are being made into the circumstances in which this man was called up for service, and I will communicate the result to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the man signed a form, and is that to be used as a weapon to prevent his attending the church service?

I have not had time to look into the particulars of the case, and I am loath to accept my hen. Friend's statement of the facts.

Returned Wounded Soldiers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will arrange to transfer sick and wounded soldiers on their arrival in this country, as far as the necessity of special treatment may permit, to hospitals in the area of the men's homes; and whether he is aware that such an arrangement would be much appreciated by both the soldiers and their relations?

Every effort is made to send men in trains going to destinations as near their homes as possible, but I am afraid it is not always possible to arrange it. The subject was very fully dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary on 27th January of last year, in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for the Blackfriars Division of Glasgow, and I would refer my Noble Friend to that answer.

Religious Services (Isle of Sheppey)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he is aware that the facilities for Catholic soldiers attending their religious duties at East Church, Isle of Sheppey, Kent, are un- satisfactory; and will he see that adequate provisions are made or, otherwise, that all Catholics are transferred to some other station?

No complaints on this subject have reached the War Office, but I am making inquiries and will let my hon. Friend know as soon as possible.

Second-Lieutenants (Age for Service)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the number of young second-lieutenants who are constantly passing out from officers' training corps, he can state if there is any age limit before a second-lieutenant is sent to the front or the firingline; and, if not, whether it is possible to arrange that no one under nineteen years of age shall be sent abroad?

My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. No officer is sent to the front under nineteen years of age.

Canadian Force (Private Mackinlay)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he has made inquiries into the case of Private John MacKinlay, No. M/Z 153,021, Canadian Army Service Corps; and, if so, with what result?

Further inquiries have been made, and it has been ascertained that MacKinlay was serving on an Imperial attestation.

Southwark Tribunal

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been called to correspondence which has taken place between the Southwark Town Council and his Department relative to the case of S. G. Weaver, a member of the local tribunal; whether he is aware that this labour representative is a working picture-frame maker with his own workshop; that although his attendance at the sittings of the tribunal has caused him financial loss in consequence of absence from his workshop, his claim for expenses has been disallowed on the ground that he does not suffer any loss of wages; whether, in view of the fact that it can be easily proved that the member in question does suffer financial loss by attendance at the tribunal, he will have the matter reconsidered; and whether he will receive a deputation from the Southwark Trades Council, who nominated the member and who feel some responsibility in the matter?

I have seen some correspondence which took place over twelve months ago, since when the matter appears to have dropped. I think the question should have been addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Service.

Small Holders (Exemptions)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether the War Executive Committee will be given the power to exempt from military service men who, having holdings of their own or helping a widowed mother to cultivate a small holding, are now working, or undertake to work, on other farms, on the same principle as is applied to crofter districts under Army Council Instructions 1175 of 1917?

In England and Wales vouchers exempting men from being posted for service with the Colours are issued by county agricultural executive committees to men who were employed whole time on a farm on farm work of national importance on the 1st June. In the crofter districts of Scotland the Board of Agriculture for Scotland may, if the Army Council so decide, issue a voucher to a crofter who, having been on the 1st June, 1917, employed part time on farm work, subsequently becomes whole time employed on farm work by cultivating an adjacent croft or crofts. Recruiting officers were instructed to report in each case whether the arrangement would render another man available for military service. This principle has not been applied to small holders in England and Wales who were only employed part time on farm work on the 1st June. Their cases are dealt with by the statutory tribunals in the ordinary course.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in consequence of the large number of these men being called out, small holdings are going out of cultivation; and does he not consider it in the national interest to extend to England and Wales the same power as is given in regard to the crofters?

No evidence has come to me of small holdings going out of cultivation.

Royal Defence Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any system, and, if so, what, exists in the Royal Defence Corps for the promotion of officers; whether the practice of transferring individual senior and other officers of the Royal Defence Corps from one company to another unfairly militates against the promotion of the company officers to which such transfers are sent who in many instances, have served for two and a half years in the same company in their present rank; whether in the formation of Home Service battalions from companies of the Royal Defence Corps a nucleus company of the original garrison battalion is retained with the commanding officer of the battalion and his staff and other senior officers; whether this practice tends to block the promotion of officers of the Royal Defence Corps; and, if so, whether any alteration will be made in the Regulations to secure a fair chance of promotion to officers in the Royal Defence Corps?

The system is based on the principle of promotion by seniority within commands, subject to the recommendation of the officer commanding. I do not think that transfer from one company to another within a command militates unfairly against the promotion of company officers. In the formation of Royal Defence Corps battalions the services were retained of the commanding officers, the second in command, adjutant, and quartermaster, and also company officers in proportion to the personnel retained from the old Home Service Garrison battalions. This has retarded for the time promotion in the Royal Defence Corps to the positions of commanding officer and second in command, but I would remind my hon. Friend that there were formerly no such appointments, as the Royal Defence Corps was only organised in companies.

Is it not the fact that there has been practically no promotion in the Royal Defence Corps except in the case of sub-lieutenants for three years, and is there any other branch where this stagnation in promotion appears?

Anti-Aircraft Defences

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether any special recognition has been, or is intended to be given, to the men in charge of the anti-aircraft defences of London for the manner in which they worked their guns during the recent air raids?

The question of recommendation for reward rests with the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, Home Forces, and such recommendations as may be initiated by him will receive due consideration.

Is it not the fact that these airmen have done the most gallant acts against enemy aircraft, and that up to the present time they have received no reward?

I have no knowledge of that. My knowledge is the contrary. I think the House knows that in several cases men who have acted gallantly in defence of this country have been rewarded.

German Prisoners (Road Making)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what is the highest rate of pay per hour, in addition to board and lodging, given to German prisoners engaged in road making; and what is the highest rate of pay per hour, in addition to board and lodging, given to Class A privates in the British Army?

German prisoners of War get the usual working pay under the Pay Warrant. British soldiers working direct for the War Department get the same working pay in addition to their ordinary pay; the actual rate of working pay issued varies with the skill required. It. is not possible to say without inquiry what is the actual maximum rate per hour at present being paid.

Is it correct to take 7½d. per hour as about the average paid to German prisoners?

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Separation Allowances

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can make any further statement regarding the question of separation allowances for junior officers?

I am afraid that I can add nothing at present to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Melton on the 18th instant.

Oh, yes, fully aware, and we are endeavouring to get a decision as soon as possible.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that an appeal was made to the regimental paymaster in respect of dependants' separation allowance upon his allotment of No. 41482, Sergeant Hadfield, King's Liverpool Regiment, on 12th April last, and that the form was reported lost; that on the 9th May, 21st May, 11th July, 18th July, and 21st July copies of the same form were sent to the same officer at his request, and that these were also reported to have been lost, and that on 21st September he stated that the forms had been sent to the inquiry officer on 24th July; and, seeing that much hardship is caused to many applicants for separation allowance owing to the supposed loss of application forms, because allowance is issued only from the date of assessment, whether he will take the necessary steps to have this condition of things remedied?

Inquiries will be made into the case, and I will inform my hon. and gallant Friend of the result; but on the general question I may state that separation allowance commences from the date of the soldier's application, and not from the date of assessment.

Ration Allowance

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the allowance in lieu of rations was reduced in August, 1914, from 2s. a day to 1s. 9d. a day, and if any increase in this allowance has subsequently been made; and whether, in view of the increased cost of provisions of all sorts, it is intended to increase the allowance?

The rate of ration allowance has changed more than once since August, 1914. The last change was an increase from 1s. 7d. to 1s. 9d. a day, and I may remind my hon. Friend that the quantity of the ration at home has been substantially reduced since the early days of the War.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that in view of the high price of provisions this ration allowance should be increased?

No, Sir; the matter has received careful consideration, and we have come to the conclusion I have stated.

Officers' Uniforms and Equipments

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what steps have been taken by the War Office to cheapen the cost of officers' uniform and equipments?

A scheme for cheapening the cost of officers' uniforms has been drawn up, and will shortly be put into operation. Standard patterns of suitable cloths have been selected, and are being manufactured under War Office control as to quality and price from wool, supplied by the Department at the lowest rates. Prices have also been fixed at which the cloth is both bought and sold by woollen merchants. A list of merchants authorised to deal in these Government cloths is being compiled as the firms notify their acceptance of the War Department conditions. Maximum prices are being fixed governing the tailors' charges for each of the uniform service dress garments.

Many of the articles of equipment can be got from the ordnance, but I will look further into the question of the possibility of doing what the hon. and gallant Gentleman suggests.

In view of what has appeared in the Press, may it be taken that no officer will have to change his present kit in order to provide a new kit?

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what scale of allowances to meet the expense of the purchase of uniform, free of Income Tax, has been, arranged and allowed as additional abatement from officers' pay?

The Commissioners of Inland Revenue have been in communication with the Board of Admiralty and the Army Council and hope to receive shortly the recomendations of those Departments in this matter. As my hon. Friend will appreciate, the allowances when fixed will take effect as from the 6th April last.

I would like to know, as notice of assessment under Schedule D and E has already been sent out, whether automatically this abatement will be made by the competent Income Tax authorities?

Soldiers' Hospital Uniform

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that the uniform given to invalid and convalescent soldiers is obnoxious to them; and will he take steps to enable these men to wear their own uniform with a band on their arm, as do officers in similar circumstances?

The retention of regulation hospital clothing is necessary for administrative and disciplinary reasons, and patients in hospital cannot be allowed to wear ordinary uniform. Improvements have recently been introduced in the cut and style of these garments.

Russian Military Service (Separation Allowances)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether any financial provision is made either by the British or Russian Government in respect of the wives and children of Polish men of military age returning to Russia from this country to take up military service in cases in which these dependants are left in this country; whether he is aware that in Lanarkshire and other places a large number of such families are beginning to suffer severe privation; and whether it is proposed to take any action in this matter?

The question of provision of separation allowances for the wives and dependants of Russian citizens who have returned to Russia for military service under the agreement of 16th July, is under consideration by the Russian Government, and meanwhile the Russian Embassy in London are taking measures to relieve any cases of immediate distress.

Army Pay Office, Blackheath

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the temporary civilian clerical staff at the Blackhaeth Army Pay Office have been called upon to work late on Saturdays and also on Sundays, and receive no overtime pay, although females in the same employment receive extra pay for all extra time worked; whether he is aware that for these men to come to work on Sundays they are put to extra expense in travelling, there being no workmen's fares; and whether he will inquire into the matter and authorise payment of overtime for work over and above the ordinary hours?

I am glad to say that it has been found practicable to stop this Sunday work. As regards other days, the men in question are serving at an inclusive rate of pay to cover all time worked.

Prisoners of War (Newspapers)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what British papers the German military officers who are interned in this country are allowed to read?

Commandants are authorised to permit prisoners of war to purchase, through the agency of the camp staff, copies of newspapers published in this country, and to exclude any which may be considered objectionable.

Can the hon. Gentleman state which daily newspapers are at present permitted?

Army Clothing Depot, Leeds

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that the women workers employed at the Army Clothing Depot, Swinegate, Leeds, have not received the last advance of 2s. 6d. per week that was awarded to women workers engaged on munition work in all parts of the country, and if he can give any reasons why the women workers in question have not received the advance; and if he will take action in the matter?

The advance referred to is presumably that granted under Statutory Order 781/1917 under the Munitions of War Act applying to certain establishments specified in the Schedule to the Order. It is not applicable to the clothing depot referred to, where the rates of wages are regulated in accordance with local rates generally prevailing in the district

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of giving this advance, in accordance with the award made by the Committee on Production, to the women in question and other Government workers of a similar character in different parts of the country?

It appears to me that the advances given under the Munitions of War Act referred to those employed by war departments.

Food Supplies

Slaughter of Calves

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether there is a large number of calves being slaughtered; and, if so, will he take steps to prevent this depletion of the herds of the future?

The return of calves slaughtered at public slaughterhouses during the past three months shows a considerable increase over the numbers slaughtered in the corresponding period in 1915 and 1916, when restrictions in slaughter were in force, and meat prices were high. Inquiries conducted by the Board of Agriculture do not, however, indicate that the stock of calves in the country is being appreciably reduced, but the matter is being closely watched.

Food Economy Campaign

asked the Prime Minister whether the new food economy campaign is intended primarily to reduce the consumption of cereals and thereby prevent the necessity of introducing a system of compulsory rationing; and whether it is intended to appeal to all classes alike and to consumers of cereals in either food or drink?

I have been asked to reply. The new food economy campaign is intended to reduce the consumption not only of cereals, but of all foodstuffs, whether solid or liquid. It will appeal to all classes alike, in the hope of securing such a degree of voluntary effort as will avert the necessity for compulsory rationing.

Potatoes

asked the Prime Minister what steps the Government intend to take to give effect to the guarantee of £6 per ton for potatoes of the 1917 crop; whether he is aware that many growers have been forced to sell under this price; if this is held by the Government as an offence under the Defence of the Realm Acts; if not, whether the Government will make good the difference to these farmers; and what machinery is to be set up for this purpose?

I have been asked to reply. The Government have given effect to the guarantee of a minimum price of £6 per ton for sound, marketable ware potatoes by the Potatoes Order, 1917, which prescribes that no sound, marketable ware potatoes shall be sold by the grower thereof in lots of 1 cwt. or more at a price less than £6 per ton, free on rail. I am not aware that growers have been forced to sell under this price; any such sale would constitute an offence against the Defence of the Realm Regulations.

Will my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, having regard to the limitations under which my hon. Friend has answered, say whether something will not be done in regard to this important matter? Potatoes are advertised in all parts of the country at a lower price, and no one knows exactly how we stand?

I quite realise the importance of that; but it is the policy of the Government to be guided by the Food Controller's Department, and surely it is right that the answer should come from the representative of that Department.

Surely it is a simple point? A guarantee was given verbally in this House by the Prime Minister, and the time has come to fulfil it. Is the Prime Minister prepared to fulfil his guarantee?

May I ask if we can be given an early opportunity of discussing this matter? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the present moment potatoes are being sold in many parts of Ireland at £3 10s. and £4 per ton? Does the Irish Government really propose to prosecute the men who are selling this food to poor people in Ireland because they will not charge £6 a ton for it?

I did not attempt to deal with this question. It seemed to me to be a purely Departmental matter. I shall look into it, and give an answer in due course.

Sugar

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as representing the Sugar Commission, what is the present retail price at which sugar should be sold in London; and on what basis it is fixed?

There is at present no Order of the Food Controller fixing the retail price of sugar either in London or elsewhere.

Has it not been the custom in the past to indicate, at least roughly, the retail price of sugar from time to time, and cannot the hon. Gentleman give the present price at which it should be sold in London?

I do not know what the custom has been in the past in regard to this matter, but I will make inquiries.

May I address my question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has, in the past, represented the Sugar Commission in this House, and made announcements on this subject?

I am sure my hon. Friend does not mean to be unreasonable, but it is quite impossible for me to follow these details.

Fertilisers

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that there is an acute shortage of basic slag, and that sulphate of ammonia supplies are uncertain; and whether supplies of manures can be reasonably assured before farmers are asked largely to extend tillage operations, the fruitfulness of which depends on fertilisers?

The output of basic Slag during the year ending 31st May, 1918, will amount to at least 500,000 tons, as compared with something under 400,000 tons in the preceding season. In addition certain accumulations of low grade slag which have not hitherto been regarded as sufficiently valuable to be used will be ground for use if required. The supply of sulphate of ammonia for agricultural purposes is likely to amount to 190,000 tons during the present season, as against 150,000 tons last year. In the case of both these fertilisers, therefore, provision has been made to meet increased demands from farmers, and all possible steps are being taken to extend the output. The importance of increasing the output of fertilisers is very fully recognised, and the Board are in constant communication with the Ministry of Munitions on the subject.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that low-grade slag contains only 15 to 20 per cent. of soluble phosphates, and is practically useless for agricultural purposes?

But can the hon. Gentleman say whether only 15 per cent. is soluble for manurial purposes?

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether it is the intention of the Government to fix the price of these articles?

Alcohol Production (Materials)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that 65,000,000 bushels of grain and 360,894,000 lbs. of sugar have been consumed in the manufacture of alcoholic liquor during the year ending 30th September, 1916, and that this material would be sufficient to provide the flour ration of 3 lbs. per week to the whole population of the United Kingdom for a period of seventeen weeks, as well as giving an additional 45 lbs. of sugar to every family in the United Kingdom; whether, during the last three months, any additional supplies of grain and sugar have been allocated for the production of beer or spirits; whether he can state the quantities of grain and of sugar which have been surrendered to the trade for the purpose of brewing Government ale and proprietary beers, respectively; and whether, in view of the shortage of food supplies and the necessity for the strictest economy, he will take immediate steps to eliminate private interests in the manufacture and sale of alcoholic liquor and, at the same time, prevent the further waste of foodstuffs in the production of alcohol?

The quantity of grain and sugar used in the manufacture of alcoholic liquor during the year ending 30th September, 1916, is approximately as stated in the question. The figures for grain include the grain used in distilleries for the production of non-potable spirit for munitions and industrial purposes; they further comprise malt, rice, flaked rice, rice grits, maize grits, flaked maize, and similar preparations, which could only have been used in the manufacture of flour by way of admixture with the wheaten product. Most of the sugar used was wholly unfit for domestic consumption. The quantity of beer permitted to be brewed during the current quarter entails the use of approximately the same quantity of grain and brewer's sugar as was used in the last quarter, or rather more than half that used in the corresponding quarter of 1916. No grain has been released for the distilling of potable spirit during the last three months. There are no figures available which would enable me to distinguish the ingredients used in the brewing of beers of different gravities. I cannot accept the view that the brewing of beer represents an avoidable waste of foodstuffs, nor do I see how the elimination of private interests in the manufacture and sale of alcoholic liquor would tend to promote food economy.

Has the right hon. Gentleman got similar figures for the consumption of grain and sugar in producing non-alcoholic liquor?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the major part of the sugar used for brewing is unfit for human consumption?

Questions

Wounded Soldiers (Active Service)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government will make it optional and not obligatory for men who have been sent back to this country more than once owing to wounds or severe illness to serve actively again during this War?

I am afraid it is quite impossible to give any pledge in the direction suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend. The matter is one which depends entirely upon the number of fit men from civil life placed at the disposal of the Army authorities.

Men who have been wounded three or four times would be sent back against their will?

Everybody is conscious of the extreme gallantry of the men who have been wounded three or four times but necessity knows no law and those men may have to go under military exigency.

Property Losses Commission (Major Ball)

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been drawn to the public censure of Major Ball by the Chairman of the Property Losses Commission; if he is aware that, as a result of the persistent efforts of Major Ball introducing in his reports the political opinions of the claimants for compensation for the purpose of influencing the Commission, the Chairman protested against his action; if he will now state the number of cases which were reported on by Major Ball; if he will state whether Major Ball reported on the claims which were made to the Committee dealing with the Irish rebellion property losses; and if he will state whether it is proposed to keep Major Ball in the position he now occupies?

My attention has been drawn to the remarks by the Chairman of the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission. I am satisfied that Major Ball has not been influenced by any political opinions he may hold in any official advice he may have given or official action he may have taken. He has reported on thirty cases. He has not reported on any claim arising out of the rebellion. He retains his position under the War Department.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why he introduces politics into the claims made by the Irish people: surely politics have nothing to do with claims?

As I say to the hon. Member in my answer, I have satisfied myself that Major Ball has not allowed any political opinions of his to influence any reports he has made to his superiors at the War Office.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are at present in Ireland a number of Irish firms who are the victims of this man's spite and vindictiveness?

No; I cannot agree with the insinuations of the hon. Member against a public servant who has done exceedingly good work in this War. My information is that Major Ball is an exceedingly capable officer, and has worked extremely well.

Association of Municipalities (Ireland)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that at a meeting of the Association of Municipalities of Ireland, held in Limerick on the 6th of September last, a resolution was unanimously passed by that body representative of the industrial enterprise of the country, requesting the Government to confer powers upon the Lord Lieutenant in Council to deal with matters of industrial enterprise in Ireland under the Defence of the Realm Act until after the War; that copies of that resolution were sent to him, the Lord Lieutenant, and the Chief Secretary for Ireland; and what steps, if any, have been taken to confer the terms of the resolution on the Lord Lieutenant in Council in Ireland?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. The resolutions referred to have been received. No steps have at present been taken in the direction suggested.

Railway Control (Whitley Report)

asked the Prime Minister whether use is being made of the opportunity presented by the Government control of the railways to introduce into the railway service the joint committees of representatives of employers and workpeople recommended by the Whitley Report?

The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. The recommendations of the Whitley Report are receiving careful consideration, but I would point out that the question involved is not directly affected by the circumstances under which the railways are at present controlled by His Majesty's Government. As my hon. Friend may be aware, Conciliation Boards, on which railway companies and their employés are represented, were established several years ago.

Does not the scheme go very much further than these Conciliation Boards; is it not the fact that the Government are urging employers and trade unions to adopt this scheme, and will they not take steps to carry it out on the railways?

Censorship

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the censorship is exercised on the correspondence or cablegrams of the wife of an ex-sovereign resident in this country who by birth is a princess of a house now in arms against the Allies?

All this lady's correspondence would be subject to the same rules of censorship as that of other private persons in this country.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Department concerned with the opening of private inland correspondence is under the control of the censorship and the Home Office or of the military authorities; and whether in each individual case where a letter is opened it is done in obedience to an express warrant in writing under the hand of a Secretary of State according to law?

The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question Inland correspondence is not ordinarily subject to censorship. Where examination is required for any special purpose, the examination is authorised by a warrant under the hand of the Home Secretary, but it is usually carried out by the Censorship Department, which is under the control of the War Office.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this practice is becoming very extensive, and is repugnant to the sense of honour and decency of the people of the country, and does not what is being practised go beyond what is allowed by the Postal Act, 1908?

I know that I have signed a considerable number of warrants, and I have never signed one except I was satisfied that it was required in the interests of the safety of the country. I may add that I entirely dissent from the second and third statements in the question of the hon. Gentleman.

Is it the duty of this Department to write letters that they know will bring replies which will incur prosecution under the Defence of the Realm Act?

Consolidated Fund Bill (Admiralty Statement)

asked the Prime Minister if he will state definitely the day on which the First Lord of the Admiralty will make his promised statement; and will that statement be made at an early hour in the day's proceedings?

The First Lord hopes to make his statement at the beginning of the Debate on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill.

Sir Douglas Haig (Cabinet Telegram)

asked the Prime Minister whether it is in accordance with English constitutional custom for the Prime Minister, on behalf of the Cabinet, to telegraph congratulations and an assurance of confidence to a general commanding in the face of the enemy in the course of a battle, the issue of which is still undecided; and, if so, why this particular occasion has been selected to send the special congratulations of the Prime Minister and the Cabinet to Sir Douglas Haig, in contrast to many other occasions on which deeds of at least equal heroism and of more vital interest as regards the result of the War were performed by British generals and British troops?

The War Cabinet did not even consider the question of precedent, which, in present circumstances, does not seem important. In sending our message of congratulation we were convinced that both the House and the country would approve and welcome suitable recognition both of the leadership of Sir Douglas Haig and of the magnificent achievements of our men.

What the Leader of the House has said is not an answer to a very important part of the question, which is: Why, on previous occasions, when equally heroic action was taken, and often on more critical occasions—I refer to the first and second battles of Ypres—there was no such action, and whether, as a matter of fact, it is not the prerogative of the Crown and the constitutional custom of England that the Crown sends these telegrams and congratulations to generals in the field?

I have already given what I think is a complete answer, which is that at a time like this the Cabinet does what it believes to be right, and what it believes the House of Commons approves. I have not examined, and I do not think it worth while to examine, the precedents.

Divorce Law Reform

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government has given any support to proposals of divorcee law reform; and, if not, what action he proposes to take in the matter?

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies to that question, may I ask why a Member representing an Irish constituency should wish to inflict this intolerance upon the people of this country?

This question has not yet been considered by the Government, and I can, therefore, make no statement about it.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of persons in this House, including myself, have received a circular in which it is stated that it was understood that the Government was in favour of these proposals and only needed a push to make them bring them in? Is there any foundation for the use of the Government's name in this connection?

The Government is not responsible for the circular. As I have said, we have not considered it, and we cannot, therefore, express any opinion.

Therefore I understand that the Government do not give the proposals any support?

I really do not see how I can say anything more definite than I have said. It may very well be that many members of the Government are in favour of this reform, but it has not been considered by us.

Is the matter being considered by the Minister of Reconstruction? [HON. MEMBERS: Answer!]

Peace Terms

asked the Prime Minister whether he can give an assurance that no peace negotiations will be begun without the full knowledge and assent of the representatives of the great Dominions?

His Majesty's Government would certainly not enter upon peace negotiations without prior consultation with the Dominions.

Cannot the right hon. Gentleman send out the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Hunt)?

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether, in view of the fact that the Germans prepared for this War for many years and deliberately brought it about, and in view of the fact that many people are much afraid that the Government will not insist on the Germans paying, as far as possible, for all the loss and destruction caused by their wanton aggression, he can give an assurance that in the settling of peace terms we shall make Germany pay, as far as possible, for our losses and war expenditure; (2) whether, in order to save the lives of our sailors and soldiers, in view of the fact that the Germans are very much afraid of a trade boycott after the War, he will state that for every month the War goes on after the end of November next another year's extra Import Duties will be levied on German goods sent to this country, and another year's extra Export Duties on all raw materials from our Crown Colonies?

Land for Military Purposes (Arbitrators' Awards)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the facts mentioned in paragraph 42 of the Report of the Committee of Public Accounts, showing the owner having in 1912 received from the War Office for his farm £70,000, he then became tenant and was subsequently awarded by the same arbitrator £34,980 because the land was required for military purposes; and whether, in view of the Committee's opinion that the case is a further instance of the way in which Government Departments constantly suffer at the hands of local arbitrators, he proposes to recommend the appointment of official arbitrators under the Board of Agriculture as suggested?

My attention has been drawn to the facts of this case, and I am making further inquiry about it. I may say, however, that cases of this kind are not likely to arise during the War.

Enemy Submarines (Awards to Merchant Officers)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has come to any decision with regard to the question of awards made to captains and officers of the merchant service for meritorious service in beating off, or escaping from, enemy submarines, being subject to deductions in respect of Income Tax; and, if legislation is required, whether he can say if provision will be made to exempt such awards from taxation in the next Finance Bill?

The Commissioners of Inland Revenue have, with my approval, instructed the surveyors of taxes that, with the concurrence of the various bodies of Income Tax Commissioners, these awards should not be included in the computation of the Income Tax liability of the officers in question.

Currency Notes

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of gold now held as a reserve in respect of the £1 and 10s. currency notes in present circulation; what was the total value of the outstanding £1 and 10s. currency notes on 30th September, 1915, 1916, and 1917, respectively; and whether he will give an assurance that in order to restrict inflation no more currency notes will be issued except to replace withdrawn paper money?

The information asked for in the first two parts of the question is contained in the weekly returns published in the "Gazette." As regards the last part, although, as I have previously stated, the question of inflation is receiving the constant attention of the Government, I am unable to give the assurance asked for.

If I put an unstarred question, will the right hon. Gentleman give us the details of these, instead of asking me or somebody else to add up the figures for two or three years?

I do not think even as hard a task as that would be implied. I think it would be only necessary to read the figures

Petroleum Royalties

The following questions stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. CURRIE:

70. To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what proportion of the petroleum royalties earned by a land owner will be retained by the Government in the name of Excess Tax or Excess Mineral Rights Duty?

71. To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the liability of a landowner to Increment Duty in the case of increment arising through the payment to him of petroleum royalties will be calcu- lated upon the basis of the computed capitalised value of the royalties or upon what other basis?

May I ask, as I am put in some difficulty, if the House may depend on getting definite answers to these questions before being asked to consider the petroleum royalties, because we cannot consider the question without getting an announcement?

That is quite right, and I will explain the reason for the delay is that we have to consult the Law Officers.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the suggestion in the question that royalties are earned? Is he going to treat them as earned or unearned income?

Navy and Army Services

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he will put on the Notice Paper the terms of the Resolution of thanks to the Army and Navy which the Prime Minister proposes to move on Monday next?

The Prime Minister will announce the terms of the Resolution at the end of Questions.

Income Tax (Reduced Rates to Sailors and Soldiers)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that all reference to the reduced rates of Income Tax granted to sailors and soldiers is omitted from the notice of assessment of the Tax under Schedule E already issued for the current Income Tax year; and if it is his intention to sanction the repetition of this omission which conceals the concessions made to our sailors and soldiers by the Finance Act of 1917?

I am quite unable to understand my hon. Friend's allusion to concealment, which must I think be based on a misunderstanding. If he would care to have an explanation in detail of the forms in use by the Inland Revenue Department, I should be happy to arrange with the Commissioners of Inland Revenue to give him an appointment for the purpose.

May I ask whether it is a fact that, at any rate, these forms of assessment sent out failed to state any of the concessions that were specially made to soldiers and sailors in the last Finance Bill, and, therefore, as non-commissioned ranks, at any rate, have no Army agents to protect them abroad, they know nothing of their rights in the matter?

I think my hon. Friend will be in a better position to state the case if he will find out exactly what are the facts which I have offered to give him.

Petrol (Price)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware of the complaints of business men of the price of petrol; whether it is the result of middlemen exacting profits at the expense of consumers; and whether he can take any steps to get the price reduced?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I am aware that the price of petrol was recently increased 8½d. a gallon, and no doubt this has given rise to complaint. The increase was attributed to an increase made in the cost of insurance of vessels against war risks, and I am endeavouring to ascertain whether this increase was a justification for the whole rise in the price of petrol. Some reduction has now been made in the charge for insurance, and the companies importing petrol have made a reduction of 3½d. in the original increase of 8½d.

Will the hon. Gentleman say that the Government will do their best not to let the middlemen get excess profits?

Munitions

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the excellence of the arrangements of the Liquor Control Board in Carlisle in providing high-class but economical meals to the public is a menace to the existence of privately-owned restaurants and cafés; and whether any steps will be taken to mitigate the hardship individuals may suffer when confronted with the competition of the State?

(Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions): I have been asked by my hon. Friend to answer this question. It has throughout been the policy of the Central Control Board to provide facilities for obtaining food and solid refreshments along with drink, and I am informed that there is no reason to apprehend that privately-owned restaurants or cafes in Carlisle have suffered hardship in consequence of the provision made by the Board.

If it is found by experience that a serious hardship is suffered by these individuals, will any steps be taken to protect them?

I can only answer for the Control Board. We shall certainly do nothing to interfere with the proper provision of food for our munition workers.

Questions

Surveyors of Taxes (Clerks)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of clerks to surveyors of taxes placed on the establishment list from 1908 to 1915, inclusive; and the number of such clerks who had, prior to their establishment, five years and under ten years, ten years and under fifteen years, and fifteen years and upwards continuous service as clerks to surveyors of taxes, which is not reckoned for pension purposes?

The number asked for in the first part of the question is 1,544. Prior to 1908 clerks to surveyors of taxes were not only not established, but (although paid by the Board of Inland Revenue) were not in the direct service of the board, being engaged as personal clerks by the surveyors. Of the number 1,544, approximately half had had no service prior to establishment. Of the remainder, 279 had under five years' previous service, 223 five years and under ten, 175 ten years and under fifteen, 123 fifteen years and upwards. All clerks placed on the establishment since April, 1908, who at the date of establishment had had prior service as clerks, are entitled to count some part of such service for purposes of pension. The unestablished service which may be reckoned for pension is limited to one-half of the service spent directly in the employment of the Board of Inland Revenue, and in addition, where there had been previous (indirect) service under the surveyor a period equal to one-half of that service (excluding service as boy clerk), provided that in no case should the amount of unestablished service to count for pension exceed the period of such service directly under the board.

Would the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of abolishing the old farce of saying that these men are personal clerks to the surveyors of taxes, in view of the fact that they are nothing of the kind?

Live Stock (Provision of Sires)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture the amount of public money expended during the year 1916 in England and Wales in promoting the provision of healthy and sound sires both of horses and cattle and the number of each class so subsidised; and if an improvement of stock commensurate with the outlay has resulted?

During the year ended 31st March, 1917, 166 stallions were awarded premiums under the Light Horse Breeding Scheme amounting to £26,733. The stallions included 98 thoroughbreds and about 50 mountain and moorland ponies. Under the Live Stock Scheme £16,079 was expended in subsidising 659 bulls, 216 boars, and 108 heavy horse stallions. In reply to the latter part of the question, the working of the schemes is demonstrating to all classes of farmers the value of good sound sires, and I am convinced that if the method adopted is continued, and even extended, its results will be commensurate with the outlay.

Swine Fever (Serum Treatment)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture if he is prepared to make a statement as to the result of the serum treatment of swine fever; and if he will give the number of outbreaks of this disease during the first nine months of 1917 and similar returns for the first nine months of 1916?

The number of outbreaks of swine fever recorded in the first nine months of 1917 was 1,793, as against 3,593 in the same period of 1916. I fear I cannot within the limits of an answer to a question discuss the value and results of the serum treatment of swine fever, but I will direct my hon. Friend's attention to the analysis of results of the treatment which appears in the Annual Report of the Chief Veterinary Officer for the year 1916, of which I will send him a copy. Should the hon. Member desire further information, I would arrange for an interview with the Board's officers dealing with the subject.

Is it the intention of the Board of Agriculture to consider the adoption of this treatment here in England?

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that the serum treatment of swine fever in England has been most successful; whether the postponement of its application in Ireland is owing to the refusal of the Treasury to liberate a sum of money granted before the War for the purpose of establishing a laboratory near Dublin; whether premises have been acquired which cannot be utilised as the funds already earmarked will not be granted; and whether, in view of the importance of this issue to save and produce food, the Treasury will advance the money set aside for that purpose?

I have been asked to reply to this question, and I have nothing to add to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary on Thursday last.

Arising out of what the right hon. Gentleman is pleased to call a reply, is he aware that the answer I got contained no such statement? I will put down the question again next week.

President Lincoln (Statue at Westminster)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he will obtain a drawing or photograph of the statue of President Lincoln, which it is proposed to erect in the Canning Enclosure; whether such drawing will be exhibited in the tearoom of this House; and whether he will give an opportunity to this House and to recognised authorities on civic art to offer suggestions before the erection of any statue offered by any private persons is accepted for erection in London?

I will endeavour to obtain a photograph of the Barnard statue of President Lincoln. I already have one of the statue by St. Gauden, and when I have both I shall be very glad to accede to the request of my hon. Friend and place the photographs in the tea-room. My jurisdiction as regards the erection of statues in London only extends to Crown property sites. I do not consider the suggestion of my hon. Friend is at all practicable.

Land Reclamation

asked the Secretary to the Treasury what sums have been expended or lent by the Development Com missioners since 1st January, 1916, for land drainage or reclamation?

Since the 1st of January, 1916, the Development Commissioners have not recommended any advances for the actual work of land drainage or reclamation; but they have recommended grants to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and to the Land Reclamation Society of sums amounting in all to £1,450 for the cost of inquiries and reports on areas apparently suitable for land drainage or reclamation. Prior to the 1st January, 1916, the Development Commissioners recommended a loan of £2,500 to the Feltwell Fen Second District Drainage Board for the reclamation of flooded lands. The money was advanced by the Treasury to the Drainage Board in February, 1916.

Have the activities of the Development Commission since its formation ever resulted in the reclamation of a single acre of land?

Inland Revenue (Pension)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether Mr. R. P. Leechman, clerk in the office of the surveyor of taxes, Sligo, was recently retired from the service without a pension after forty-three years' service in the Taxes Department of the Inland Revenue, and that the only reason why a pension was not granted was that all except the last eight years or so of Mr. Leechman's service was given in an unestablished capacity; whether it is the general practice to count for pension so much of the unestablished service as is similar in character to the established service following it; and, if so, will the Treasury reconsider this case with a view to the unestablished service being allowed to count for pension?

The facts are not quite as represented. Mr. Leechman served eight complete years in the direct employment of the Board of Inland Revenue, of which nearly one year was served in an unestablished capacity and rather more than seven in an established capacity. He was awarded the full amounts of the gratuity for which he was qualified in respect of the aggregate of these periods of service, and since his retirement he has been re-employed. Prior to his service under the Board he was employed for twenty-two complete years in the personal service of a surveyor of taxes, but such service is not reckonable under the Superannuation Acts.

New Member Sworn

Edward Smallwood, Esquire, for the Borough of Islington (East Division).

Standing Orders

Resolution reported from the Select Committee;

"That, in the case of the South Staffordshire Mond Gas (Power and Heating) (No. 2) [ Lords ], Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with: That the parties be permitted to proceed with their Bill." Resolution agreed to.

National Expenditure

First Report from the Select Committee brought up, and read; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 151.]

Orders of the Day

Business of the House

May I ask the Leader of the House whether the House is to be invited to sit on Friday, and, if so, what business it is proposed to take?

The state of business makes it unnecessary that the House should sit on Friday, and, therefore, a Friday sitting this week will not be held.

Navy, Army, and Mercantile Marine

Thanks for War Services

I beg to give notice that on Monday next I shall move the following Resolution:

"That the thanks of this House be given to the officers, petty officers, and men of the Navy for their faithful watch upon the seas during more than three years of ceaseless danger and stress, while guarding our shores and protecting from the attacks of a barbarous foe the commerce upon which the victory of the Allied cause depends.

That the thanks of this House be given to the officers, non-commissioned officers, and men of the British Armies in the field, and also to the women in the medical and other services auxiliary thereto, for their unfailing courage and endurance in defending the right, amid sufferings and hardships unparalleled in the history of war, and for their loyal readiness to continue the work to which they have set their hands until the liberty of the world is secure.

That the thanks of this House be accorded to the gallant troops from the Dominions Overseas, from India, and from the Crown Colonies who have travelled many thousands of miles to share with their comrades from the British Isles in the sacrifices and triumphs of the battlefield, and to take their full part in the struggle for human freedom.

That the thanks of this House be accorded to the officers and men of the Mercantile Marine for the devotion to duty with which they have continued to carry the vital supplies to the Allies through seas infested with deadly peril.

That this House doth acknowledge with grateful admiration the valour and devotion of those who have offered their lives in the service of their country, and tenders its sympathy to their relations and friends in the sorrows they have sustained."

Representation of the People Bill

Considered in Committee.—[ Progress, 22nd October .]

[Mr. WHITEY in the Chair]

Third Schedule

Provisions to be substituted for Part IV of the First Schedule to 46 and 47 Vict. c. 51, and for paragraph (3) of Part V. of the same Schedule.

Maximum Scale .

The expenses mentioned above in Parts I., II., and III. of this Schedule, other than personal expenses, shall not exceed an amount equal—

in the case of a county election, to sevenpence for each elector on the register;

in the case of an election for a borough returning three or more members, to fivepence for each elector on the register;

in the case of an election for any other borough, to fourpence for each elector on the register.

Where there are two or more joint candidates at an election, the maximum amount of expenses mentioned in Parts III. and IV. of this Schedule shall, for each of the joint candidates, be the amount produced by multiplying a single candidate's maximum by one-and-a-half and dividing the result by the number of joint candidates.

Amendment moved [ 22nd October ]: After the word "than" ["other than personal expenses"], to insert the words "the fee of the election agent as hereinafter provided and."—[ Mr. G. Thorne .]

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

When the proceedings were interrupted on Monday I was endeavouring to urge the Home Secretary and the Committee to accept this Amendment which had been moved by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. G. Thorne). If this Amendment is not accepted, the proceedings with regard to the election agent's fee under the provisions of the Clause are bound to lead either to pinching or to fraud. Perhaps "fraud" is too strong an expression, but at all events some arrangement that is not contemplated by the Bill, such as increasing the agent's salary or making up to him in some other way for the small fee that he will receive. There is some opportunity here of really making an improvement in the election agent's position, and it would be a very desirable and a very important thing to do. The agent's profession is one that requires immense power for work, great energy, very considerable knowledge, and absolutely consummate tact, and it is a profession which is very badly paid. This Bill will tend to make the work of the election agent more onerous and responsible, and at the same time, if it goes through as it stands, it must inevitably tend to decrease at all events the honest fee. I therefore hope that the Home Secretary will see his way to accept this Amendment, which will do something towards giving the agent a better status. The difficulty does not arise so much in the case of the agent of the sitting Member as in the case of the agent of the candidate who is contesting the seat. The sitting Member may pay him by salary. His salary may be the most important consideration. It frequently happens, however, after an election that the agent of the defeated candidate drops out altogether and a new agent has to be appointed for the candidate contesting the seat at the next election. In that case the fee for the election is a very important consideration indeed, and if you cut it down, as it must inevitably be cut down under the Bill as it stands, you will be getting a lower-class man as agent, just at the time when you want to get as good a man as you possibly can. This Amendment merely takes the question of the fee of the election agent out of the other provisions of the Clause. If the further Amendment of the hon. Gentleman opposite is not considered quite the right way of dealing with the question, then any other way may be suggested. I would urge upon the Home Secretary that he should either accept this Amendment now, or that he should leave it to the House to say whether it wishes the Amendment to be inserted or not, and I believe that a very large majority would wish it.

I cannot help thinking that the hon. and gallant Member opposite has rather mixed up the duties of the registration agent and the agent at the time of the election. I remember very well, when some years ago I was invited to contest a constituency, I was told that I should have to have as agent a very clever young barrister—and he and I agreed that he should have £100—because my agent was a working man's agent, and was obviously not able to take one through the intricacies of an election. I was told that because I could not give him the election agent's fee I should have to give him more salary for registration purposes. There you have two totally different things. I quite admit, at any rate, for the first few years that the Act is working, that the registration agent will have very onerous, difficult, and technical duties, but I should say that the election agent himself will have rather an easier time under this Bill. We want by all means to allow a person nursing a seat to spend a good sum on getting a good, reliable man to get the voters on the list and to get them to vote for him, but when it comes to the actual work of an election agent, I do not think that we want to nail him down to £100 0f £150. There is another point. If anything like this is passed, it practically rules out any really poor man contesting a seat at all. because he will have to guarantee his agent £100 or £150 above all the other expenses. He will either have to pay that, or, as the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) said, he will have to fake the thing and pretend to pay him £100 or £150. If this Amendment is passed, it will be a severe handicap on a poor man who may himself be quite able to conduct an election and who does not want an agent at all. With the very limited amount of money that we can spend now, a candidate may not like to spend £100 or £150 upon an agent. He may prefer to give the money to sub-agents. I therefore suggest that WP should not pass this Amendment.

4.0 P.M.

I should like to oppose this Amendment. One of the objects of the Bill is to reduce election expenses so as to make it possible for men with small means to come to the House. The Amend- ment will have the effect of increasing the cost and making it more difficult for such men to come here. It will also cause such men to go on the party funds instead of fighting on their own funds as they would prefer to do if the expenses were within their means. Although the amount allowed per head is less than it was before the number of electors in each constituency will be at least doubled and in many cases more than doubled. I therefore hope that the Government will resist the Amendment.

This is a question of some difficulty because we have on the one hand to pay regard to an argument which appears to me at all events to have considerable force, and on the other hand we have to remember that the intention and effect of the report of the Conference was to radically reduce the amount of the election expenses. We have to balance so far as we can those two things. I agree entirely with what has been said by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. G. Thorne) and my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bridgewater (Colonel Sanders) as to the value of the services rendered by election agents. Some remarks which have been made in the Committee seems to me to have been made without full recollection of the very hard work that is done by this body of men. We rely upon them almost entirely, not only for our success, but also for our safety against litigation. Personally, I feel very grateful to those whom I have employed for the work they have done. Having said that, I will not say that no change at all is to be made, but I do not think it would be safe to do what the hon. Member for Wolverhampton proposes in this and his later Amendment taken together, that is, to name a sum as the remuneration for an agent. The sums he names are £100 and £150. It would astonish some members of the Committee, including some hon. Members who sit below the Gangway on this side, if they were told they must pay their agents either £100 or £150. I do not know whether the hon. Member means the sum to be a maximum.

In any case it would be very unwise to name a sum, because there would be a tendency on the part of the agents to claim the sum named in the Act of Parliament as the maximum. It is suggested to me that as a possible additional allowance we should take 10 per cent. on the scale laid down in the Bill. That would have the advantage that it would fix the amount of the agent's fees to be specially dealt with by reference to the size of the constituency and the number of the population. I cannot say whether 10 per cent. is a fair amount to fix. In the ordinary borough, where the maximum is £300 or £400, that would give a man £30 or £40, and in a county where the maximum may be £600 or £700 it would come to £60 or £70. I quite agree that that might not be enough to pay an agent, and I do not want to put in anything to prevent a man paying his agent more if he thinks fit. The only purpose for which I name this percentage is that it is a percentage which might, perhaps, be specially dealt with in a manner I am going to suggest, leaving any fee paid to the agent over that sum to come out of the maximum in the way already proposed by the Bill and by the Conference. Assuming that there is some such measure as that of the amount to be dealt with, how can we deal with it specially? The allowance for personal expenses is, as most of us know, in very many cases, perhaps in most, not spent. The amount allowed is £100. Many Members who have had my experience have never spent as much as £5 for their personal expenses, many of us have not spent anything at all. Of course, it depends upon where you live. At all events, there is in most cases a considerable margin in the item of personal expenses. Would this be reasonable, that is, to allow a candidate to include the agent's fee up to 10 per cent. or some other limit that is to be fixed, in his personal expenses? At present it is paid out of the maximum. If he can throw it upon his personal expenses he takes it from funds already heavily burdened and puts it on a fund where there is a considerable margin. That would afford considerable relief to a candidate who would be tied down by having a maximum inserted in the Bill. If we do that, we ought to extend the amount of personal expenses in counties. In boroughs we might leave it at £100, and in counties it might be raised to £150 if this plan is adopted. Therefore I suggest that as a possible solution. It will not go as far as many Members think we ought to go, but, at all events, we shall have regard to the obligation we are under not to depart very substantially from the limits suggested by Mr. Speaker's Conference. The solution I suggest is that we should allow any fee paid to the election agent to an amount not exceeding 10 per cent. of the maximum expenditure laid down under the scale to be treated as the personal expenses of the candidate, and that we should raise the limit of personal expenses in counties to £150.

They possibly ought to be treated as counties. I suggest that the boroughs should remain where they are as regards the limit, the only change being the authority to charge personal expenses with a limited sum, and that the candidate's expenses in a county should be raised by £50. That will afford some relief to candidates.

I am glad that the Home Secretary has given a not unfavourable consideration to the purpose of this Amendment. The object it has in view is really a sound one. I am anxious, as we all are, that election expenses should be reduced as far as is practicable, in order to give the men of small means a better chance than now of standing for this House and becoming Members of Parliament. But it does appear to me, as it appears to many of my hon. Friends and to my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, that the scale proposed in the Bill does cut down the existing limit of election expenses too drastically. I would remind the Committee that now in an ordinary county constituency there are, on the average, about 11,000 electors. The maximum expenses payable are £1,250, excluding the returning officer's expenses. Under this Bill, instead of 11,000 electors there will be on the average about 24,000 electors, and although you have rather more than double the electorate you propose to cut down the maximum of expenses payable from £1,250 to £700; in fact, you double the electorate and really halve the expenditure at the same moment. In these circumstances it does appear likely either that the agent will be asked to forego his fee and to receive some annual payment in exchange, which in many cases it would be exceedingly difficult to arrange, or else that in some cases some surreptitious arrangement should be made which would be exceedingly objectionable from every point of view, or, in the third instance, smaller fees will be paid and men of comparatively inferior capacity will be employed. That will be a great evil. It is necessary for the purity and efficiency of our electoral system that the status of the election agent should be maintained. He has not merely party functions to perform, but statutory functions to perform. The Acts of Parliament impose upon him certain duties, obligations and penalties, penalties which fall more directly upon the candidate whom he serves. In these circumstances it does not appear to be expedient, in the public interest, not to make such provision in regard to election expenses as would allow an adequate fee to be paid to the election agent.

The Home Secretary proposes a new scheme for dealing with this matter which requires rather more consideration than we can give it on the spur of the moment. I see the difficulties and the objections he has pointed out. On the other hand, I do not quite see that the proposal he makes of fixing a percentage is free from the same objection that the agent may claim that sum as is the proposal not to exceed the sum named in the Bill. Everyone knows in their constituency what the maximum expensese are. If they are £700, 10 per cent would be £70, and it will be known from the beginning that £70 is the sum payable. I am not sure that it is a sound principle to say, if one constituency is rather smaller than another—we are now equalising them to a very great extent—that you can get a £50 agent in one case and an £80 agent in another. The professional qualifications required are very much the same in each case. Further, the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that we should combine this with and not add it on to the present arrangement for personal expenses, or amalgamate it with personal expenses, so that personal expenses and the agent's fee should he regarded as one and subject to one limit, is open to the objection that in a constituency where the candidate is a resident and his personal expenses are consequently small, the agent may get a larger fee than in a neighbouring constituency, where all the conditions may be exactly the same except that the candidate does not live in the constituency but has to take rooms there and has certain expenses imposed upon him. Even the agent might suffer in his purse by the fact that the candidate for whom he is acting is not in ordinary circumstances a person who owns a motor car. The candidate who owns a motor car does not have £30, £40, or £50 to put into his election expenses for the hire of a car during the election. He does not have to include it in his personal expenses, but if he does not own such a car, then he must include the cost of hiring one. Why should the agent suffer owing to a wholly extraneous circumstance like that? I think my right hon. Friend is mixing two different matters when he proposes that the amount available for the agent's fee shall vary with the amount the candidate has to pay on personal expenses, accordingly as it is high or low. I hope that these matters will be carefully considered, and that we shall have an opportunity of thrashing out precisely the basis of a scheme for dealing wih this somewhat complicated question.

I agree very much with what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman. I represent a group of burghs, and I can assure the Committee I have never been able to save money out of personal expenses, although a great deal of hospitality has been shown to me by my friends. It is of the very first importance—for our own safety, if for no other reason—that we should have a reasonable sum earmarked for this purpose. In the new grouping of my Constituency three burghs in Argyllshire are taken away and four burghs in Ayrshire are added. Some of these are of considerable size. The largest has a population of 32,000 or 33,000, another 11,000, another 8,000, another 7,000, and the smallest 3,000 or 4,000. Under these circumstances you must have, in the larger places at any rate, some responsible person to act for the agent; otherwise you may get into a quandary, as the chief election agent cannot possibly supervise in each case. Therefore small fees will have to be paid for agents in each of these burghs to see that the election is carried out properly. I believe my right hon. Friend is only proposing to allow about £60 as the limit. It is obvious to everyone that in a small, compact constituency the election can be worked much more cheaply than in the case of a group of burghs. There is less advertising and fewer meetings have to be held, whereas in a group of burghs the item of expenditure for meetings is very large indeed. Another point which seems to have been overlooked is the certainty that the cost of everything after the War will be very much greater than it was before the War, and that is likely to continue for some years. Paper, printing, hiring, advertising, and other things, will necessarily be dearer, and I do suggest that that ought to be borne in mind. If you consider how much the expenses are to be cut down and at the same time remember the increased cost, it will be very obvious that the Bill will make an enormous change. I am not in favour of increasing the expenses. I want that they shall be kept down as much as other people do, but we really ought to see that a reasonable allowance is provided for the agent, and, if that be done, then probably the other proposals in the Bill might be retained. I think that would be a very good compromise, and it is one which I hope may be arranged satisfactorily later on.

I am rather sorry the Home Secretary has put forward this proposal, because I am afraid it is going directly against the spirit of the Speaker's Conference. It is unfortunate that it should be brought up just now, because we do not know what is to be done with the Amendment which comes next dealing with the amount to be allowed per head. If the Home Secretary is going to give way and say that the amount per voter in counties shall be raised from 7d. to 8d., or even 1s., then I think the proposal which he has just put forward in a tentative form is altogether undesirable. I am not quite sure it would not be better to raise the amount per head by 1d. than to put this item under the head of "personal expenses." The right hon. Gentleman's Proposal would only meet certain cases. It would not do away with the general difficulty, and I do hope that no decision will be come to upon this Amendment until we have definitely decided what is to be allowed per head for election expenses.

I hope we shall in no way increase election expenditure. We know what the public wants quite apart from this House—it wants to simplify elections, it wants to do away with all the paraphernalia of paid agents, canvassing, cards, organisation, posters, and similar propaganda. The public desire to have plain and simple issues decided, not because one particular party has the better organisation or because one particular party agent is more clever than the other party agent, but on the merits of the controversy and on the merits of the candidate. This proposal to increase personal expenditure is quite in the wrong direction. I have had a very great variety of experience in electioneering. I have always stood for very large constituencies, and I know the evils attending the possibility of spending money except in very clearly denned directions. The very vagueness of the term "personal expenses" is one of the dangers. I know the amount is to be limited, but I do not want the Home Secretary to make any concession in this matter. I do not want him to increase the amount allowed. I would limit personal expenses purely to hotel bills, and the necessary cost of travelling to meetings. It would be much better to confine all personal expenses in that way. As to the election agent, there, too, I think, there is no necessity to make any concession by increasing the fees. It is common knowledge that in most constituencies the various parties have a permanent official year in and year out to carry on the work of organisation. If that work is not done between the elections, surely it is the wrong time to attempt to do it while an election is going on, because that tends to bring in outsiders, and it encourages a system of national organisation with elaborate machinery. I believe the public would like to see all electioneering paraphernalia done away with and the propaganda confined entirely to public meetings and the issue of the candidate's address.

The Home Secretary has not yet stated why he differentiates between boroughs and counties. Surely he must know that many candidates in boroughs have to live at hotels. They have to have apartments there in order that they may receive the many deputations who wait upon them, and who could not possibly be expected to interview them in their bedrooms. If the election is going on for two or three weeks the expenditure on this item alone must be very considerable. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman, so far as he himself is concerned, is favourably situated because he lives in his own constituency, or very near it, but most candidates cannot do that. Take my own case. I live a good many miles away from my constituency, and when I go to it, I have to pay an hotel bill. It is necessary I should have rooms at an hotel in order to meet the election officials and to see my friends and supporters. I venture to put it to the Home Secretary that he is making a very great mistake in lessening the personal expenses in the borough, and I appeal to him to leave the amount as now, and to let the election agent be paid separately and not out of expenses which are really personal but quite apart from them.

I hope the Home Secretary will be able to deal with this question of the agent's fee without mixing it up with the question of the candidate's personal expenses, because it is a matter which stands entirely apart, and it seems to me it is hardly a thing to be treated as personal expenses. It may well be argued that a candidate who squanders money on posters or on a very large number of meetings is getting an electoral advantage over the poorer candidate. I think, in view of the complications of electioneering law, the candidate should be protected in regard to his agent. No one says that you ought not to have an election agent, and it is entirely a question of the fee which is to be paid. You are bound to have an election agent, and you are also bound to place in his hands practically your interests, and it is a little bit unfair, I think, to say to the candidate that he must either place those interests in the hands of a man whom he does not feel is competent, or be content to underpay the man in whose custody he has placed those interests. I have no sympathy with any attempt to cause these men to be underpaid in the interests of the economical running of an election. Economy can be better devised by an efficient agent. He is the man who can economically run an election, and I hope the Home Secretary will see his way clear to enable the proper fee to be paid without complicating the question of the candidate's personal expense.

With all due respect to the hon. Member for Harboro' (Mr. Percy Harris) it is perfectly obvious that we have to do something. You have either to raise the amount you spend per head on each elector, or you have in some way to allow the candidate to give a fee which is fair to his agent, or to increase the limit of his personal expenses. I have taken the trouble to work out what will be the cost of 18,000 electors at 7d. in a county constituency, and it amounts to £525. There is a very interesting manual issued by our Central Office with regard to elections, which shows the percentages of expenses which a candidate ought to put down under certain items, and the list is headed by "agents and sub agents," who represent 25 per cent. of the total cost. Twenty-five per cent. of £525 means that you have something under £400 left. Does the hon. Member tell me that you can fight a big county division on something under £400, after you have taken out the cost of your agent and sub agent? I am perfectly certain that you cannot. That being so, it is obvious that you must increase the amount one way or another.

The hon. Member says he has always fought very big divisions. I have always fought divisions with over 25,000 electors.

I cannot compete there. I cannot imagine how you are going to go on with an agent and no sub-agents in a great county division. It is perfectly impossible. You have to allow some money for your sub-agents, and I think we should try to treat the candidate as a man who is honest and sensible and give him a certain latitude in his personal expenses, so that he may make his own arrangements with his agent. I have an Amendment down which tries to do that, and I think it ought not to be dismissed without some consideration. I submit that something must be done if we are to have agents at all.

The per capita scales in the Bill were intended to cover not only the ordinary election expenses, but a reasonable fee for the agent. If you are going to provide a fee for the agent in addition to these per capita expenses, you may wrap it up any way you like, either under personal expenses or otherwise—it means that this House is going to increase the cost that any candidate may incur, and it will make it easier for the rich man to monopolise representation in this country and more difficult for the poor, independent man who is not put forward and paid for by any organisation to stand and be returned to this House. I think that is a very objectionable thing, and I think it is the worst possible way of doing it to wrap it up in personal expenses. If you are doing a thing of that sort, do it openly, and let it appear upon the face of the Bill, showing what it really is and that it is an addition to the recommended scale of expenditure. I am now talking about the Bill, and not about the candidate's return. If you are going to increase the suggested scale of expenditure, do it openly in the Bill, in a way which cannot be misunderstood and cannot be hidden away. If you provide for this extra money it simply means that more money will be squandered by almost every candidate, by advertising in leaflets, by having grander addresses and grander poll cards. I am convinced by the experience of our Colonies and the experience of other countries that it is possible for a much smaller sum than that provided in this Bill to get the information to all intelligent electors. If an elector is so unintelligent that he will not bestir himself a little to avail himself of reasonable means of information, then I, for one, democrat as I am, say that it is not a bad thing that he should abstain from going to the poll. Therefore, I am entirely against this proposal to increase the election expenses, and especially against the proposal to wrap it up in personal expenses.

When this matter was discussed a few days ago I was not against some increases in the ordinary expenses. I think it is necessary we should have agents, and I am sure we shall have agents, whether it is necessary or not.

We shall have agents. Though I was in favour of a fair sum being paid to the agents, I was strongly against any addition being made to the personal expenses when the matter was discussed the other day, and I was strongly against the personal expenses being gerrymandered in order to include something which was not personal expenses, and which might lead to a very bad precedent. Once you say that personal expenses means anything besides hotel expenses—or it may be a tug, as was mentioned by the hon. Baronet (Sir G. Younger)—and items of that description, you open the door to all sorts of underhand practices. Therefore, I earnestly hope that if we decide to give an increased amount of expenditure in order to pay the agent it will be done openly by increasing the amount allowed for ordinary expenses, and not be mixed up with personal expenses. There is another point which deserves some consideration: it is very difficult to say what a man's personal expenses may be. In my own case I have been particularly fortunate during the last twelve years, for my personal expenses have been nothing. During the previous fourteen years I think they were about £10 or £15. If I had been otherwise situated as a candidate my expenses would have been at least £100, and there would not have been enough left for the agent. What would happen in the case of the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs? Would he get his agent and his tug? The House would not like to lose his presence.

What would happen would be that you would have the tug but not the agent because you take to subsidise him before the election.

If you are to pay a fair sum to the agent by increasing the expenses allowed you had better do it by increasing the amount allowed for ordinary expenses and not for personal expenses.

I have fought a good many elections and I have fought bye elections, and I would not like to fight an election with an ill-paid agent. It is absolutely necessary that you have a responsible man and a man whom you can really trust as your agent. If some men are fortunate enough to get a man who is in such a position of life that his fee does not matter, well and good, but when there are a thousand people looking for agents in the country you cannot get competent men who will do the work without a proper fee. Therefore, I think that it is most important that there should be a sufficient sum allowed for the payment of a competent agent. Cut down other expenses as much as you like, but pay adequately the man who has not only the money of the candidate, but also the honour of the candidate in his control. It is all very well to say that the rich man will pay more and the poor man will be at a disadvantage, but remember that the honest man will want to pay more and the dishonest man will be ready to run risks. I do not say there are many dishonest candidates, but there may be such things and there may be many who would not mind running the risk with regard to their honour. We do not want to encourage that class of man to stand for Parliament. We want really responsible men. In many cases the agents would be paid as the permanent officials of the party other than at election time, but there is the possibility that in connection with the new constituencies, where a candidate comes forward a few weeks before the election he has no paid man who has been in his pay in times gone by, and he will have in that case only the money to pay to his agent that is allowed in the Bill. If that candidate is defeated there may be no prospect of future payment for the agent. The association in many of these places is not rich, and the man who has been defeated is not likely to reward the man who has done the work for him at the election. However grateful he may be, I think it will be a poor thing if the agent has to depend upon the gratitude of the man who has been beaten. It is most important, whatever form it takes, that there should be a definite arrangement that sufficient funds should be available for the payment of the agent. In some constituencies I think we must have sub-agents. The agent is a very important person in any election, and I think there ought to be sufficient funds to pay him. He is the person to see that the election is properly conducted, and that the election is honestly fought. If you have a low class of men brought in as agents, you will have a considerable amount of trouble in regard to the candidate, and the elections will not be fought so honestly as they are to-day.

I agree with the remarks of my hon. Friend. If elections are to be conducted in a proper manner it is necessary that you should have a qualified agent and that he should be properly remunerated. I see a great advantage in having a special sum ear-marked for the remuneration of the agent. I think that the reduction in the election expenses and in the general cost of the election has gone far enough, and that there should be a separate and adequate fee for the agent. I prefer that instead of the sum for the agent being included in a lump sum. I suggest that a return should be made when the nomination papers are put in designating the amount which the election agent should get. I hope that the Government will not wait to deal with this matter until the Report stage, but that they will deal with it now. The election agent should receive first consideration during an election. I do not think that for a county division £150 is too large a sum for the election agent or that £100 is too large a sum for a borough agent. I think it is a bad principle when the election agent is paid before the election. Often the registration agent is not the election agent. The election agent is very frequently a solicitor. I hope that with a view to securing proper remuneration for election agents that the Amendment of my hon. Friend will be adopted.

This question was very fully considered by the Conference, and we not only went into the question of the existing maximum, but the question of the existing expenditure. I do not think the existing maximum affords any guide whatsoever. The maximum allowed is far in excess of anything an economical candidate expends at present In some places expenditure has been evidently run up to the maximum, and in other places, where there have been reasons for economy, the maximum has not been reached to any extent at all. I believe you have to consider whether you are allowed enough money to do the work. Let us take the example of London first of all. County council elections in London are fought as actively as any Parliamentary election. The same number of agents are employed, though the fee is not generally so great. There are the same number of committee rooms, and in every respect the conduct of a county council election is the same as the conduct of a Parliamentary election. The maximum allowable for a county council election of 10,000 electors is £215, and the amount which is allowed by the recommendation of the Conference, for boroughs, is £208. But, in addition to that, the House has agreed to allow Id. postage per elector. That would bring the maximum allowable by the proposal now before the Committee to £240 to £250 for a borough constituency of 10,000, as com- pared with an expenditure, which we know is sufficient for a county council election, of £215. In county council elections it has not been the habit to pay agents a high fee. It was not possible to go very high, and I think on the whole twenty or twenty-five guineas has been considered sufficient. As in London, the fee is to be double that for Parliamentary elections.

The electorate is to be doubled, and that also justifies cutting down the maximum, because the larger the electorate is the larger is the balance which you have over and above what is necessary to communicate with each individual elector. Taking, however, some of these London Parliamentary elections, in my own case for instance, where it was fought as economically as under the circumstances one was able to do, the amount which would be allowed under our proposal now is £257, and the amount expended, including the fee to the agent, was £356; so the Committee has the difference between the two proposals. The same thing holds good with many other London constituencies where economy was observed. In a neighbouring constituency at the last election the amount which would be allowed by this proposal is £276, and the amount which was actually expended, including the agent's fee, was £397.

We are dealing with the case of an electorate of about 10,000 electors. The question is whether in these economically conducted elections £100 could be knocked off without injuring the effectiveness of the campaign.

Yes; but I think that consideration only complicates this particular point. The larger the electorate is the more easy it is to keep within the maximum, because you spend 2½d. per elector in actually communicating with the electors and you have the balance for your meetings and everything else, and I think it would be found that the larger the constituency the easier it is to provide for the other necessities of an election. I quite agree that the question of the Scottish burghs ought to have consideration as to whether they should be treated in the same way as the counties, because the difference between different burghs renders it more difficult to fight the election. But I do not think that is the argument at present. When you get to some of the very large constituencies like Tottenham, where the possible maximum expenditure is £2,300, the actual expenditure was about £1,200, and under the proposal here the permissible expenditure would be something under £1,000.

I suppose the hon. Member for Tottenham made a full return, like everyone else. His opponent expended almost precisely the same amount. That will show again that in a constituency like Tottenham, with a very large number of electors, it was possible to cut down the expenditure below the maximum to an extent only £200 more than the maximum which is now proposed. My own view is that the proposals of the Conference are possible, certainly in the boroughs, and would be possible with economy in the counties. But I would allow an agent's fee, not of £100 or £150, as is very often the custom, but a fee of a small amount. At the same time undoubtedly they cut down the expense to about the lowest figure that is practicable, and although I think the figures put forward by the Conference are quite possible, it might be better to make a small addition such as the Home Secretary proposes. I should suggest that the addition should be made by adding to the amount allowable, and not by putting it under personal expenses.

:I think a great deal of the discussion of this Amendment has proceeded on a false basis, because the scale of expenses allowed does not deal expressly with the question of the election agent's fee. It has been assumed by most speakers that there was some idea at the Speaker's Conference that election agents might be dispensed with, or that you might behave shabbily to them. I can assure the Committee that no such idea was entertained at all. As a rule, if a candidate is not a lawyer himself he is a very foolish man if he has not an election agent, arid he is still more foolish if, having an election agent, he pays him shabbily. The duties which the election agent discharges are most onerous. They are not only laborious, but most responsible. An election agent has to be continually on the watch lest he should either bring himself or his principal within the range of the criminal law. The work has to be done very hurriedly in a very short time, and I hope the Committee will entirely put it out of their heads that any member of the Speaker's Conference entertained the idea either that election agents should be dispensed with or that they should be paid otherwise than properly. What the Speaker's Conference did was to allow, in the scale they put into the Bill, a sufficient margin to pay the election agent properly, and I still entertain that view. There are a great many performances gone through at an election simply because from time immemorial people have gone through them, and they are not in the least necessary. I remember the time in Ireland when every candidate, almost as a religious rite, not only issued an election address but inserted it in a large number of newspapers at an expenditure of a shilling a line. When the representation of Ireland passed into the hands of poor men they very quickly realised that this performance was entirely unnecessary because it did not in any way affect the result of the election. Electors were not really very much enlightened by candidates' addresses, which are quite as often intended to humbug them as to enlighten them. Accordingly in Ireland we dropped the election address and saved the expense without the smallest detriment to ourselves or to the constituency that we represented. Similarly, there are a great many other things done at elections which are only done because they have been done in the past. They do not influence the result of the election, do no sort of good, involve great expense and could be very well dropped. In my opinion the ideal election would be one in which the candidate did nothing but got himself nominated and trusted then to the intelligence of the electors to come up to the poll. I hope that in the future that may be the tendency of elections. But perhaps it will not be reached until the millennium.

5.0 P.M.

It has been said several times that you are doubling the electorate and apparently it has been assumed that you are therefore to double the expense. That is entirely false. By doubling the electorate you increase the expenditure very little. The only direct way in which a larger electorate influences expense is when you are circularising the electors. That is now being paid for by the State so it does not enter into the matter. If you enlarged the physical area of the constituency you would increase the expense. But it does not follow that because you double the electorate you add largely to the expense of an election. You have the same number of meetings and the same number of posters, if you choose to issue posters. Canvassing at present cannot be paid for. I hope I am violating no confidence when I say that a very influential person at the Speaker's Conference expressed the opinion that this, recommendation of the Conference would be the most popular of any recommendation they made. I am sorry to say that that anticipation has not so far been quite realised. The moment we reach it there is an attempt, either directly or indirectly, to raise the scale of expenses. I prefer to stand by the Clause and to stand by the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. I am quite satisfied that elections can be fought, and fought properly, on the scale which the Speaker's Conference voted for, and I confess I am not disposed at present to vote for an increase of it without hearing some better reasons than have so far been advanced. If there is to be a change made, I prefer the form taken by the Amendment rather than that suggested by the Home Secretary. I think, if there is to be a special allowance for the election agent's fee, it should apply to all constituencies. The Home Secretary's proposal would vary the conditions in every constituency, and vary them entirely apart from the merits of the case.

I am very glad to hear that, and I would only say in conclusion that I think the law and the scale of expenses ought to be the same for every constituency, and should not vary in this important respect at all on a basis depending on the personal circumstances of any candidate. I think that would follow from the Home Secretary's suggestion. I must also express the view that the present scale of personal expenses is quite sufficient. I heard the hon. baronet the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) say that he did not find it so. Well, the election now is going to be spread out at most to a period of twenty days. I think it is allowing personal expenses on a liberal scale if you allow £5 a day. I cannot see what occasion the average candidate has to spend £5 a day on personal expenses, and I think the hon. Member must have taken a very liberal view in construing the meaning of the expression "personal expenses." Personal expenses are only what you spend on your own necessities, and no candidate in the course of an election which cannot extend over more than twenty days ought to have occasion to spend more.

Take the second election of 1910, which was a very short one. It was almost impossible to cover the Ayr Burghs in the time.

I am allowing for all that. The hon. Member has said the time was unusually short, but the smaller number of days the less the money spent. If you lengthen the time, naturally you increase the expenditure. Certainly, in Ireland, we view with great apprehension any proposals to increase our scale. As the Home Secretary knows, we have at present in some boroughs and most counties a lower scale of expenses than England or Scotland. The Speaker's Conference, as it was reducing the scale, did not propose to make any express provision for Ireland. Consequently it unifies the scale for the three kingdoms arid levels Ireland up to the level of England and Scotland. I do hope that as this discussion proceeds all Members of this House will see that it is to their interest not to magnify, but to cut down election expenses, and will not depart from the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference without very good grounds being shown.

I wish to make it clear that in moving this Amendment I personally am most anxious to see election expenses reduced to the lowest possible limit, and I do not desire in any way to go beyond the provisions of the Speaker's Conference. Anything in the direction I indicated from my own point of view I would like to see deducted from the aggregate of the per capita amount. For myself I hope sincerely we shall arrive at the day when we shall be able to reduce the figures of the Speaker's Conference. I only wished to make absolutely sure that whatever else we cut down we should not sacrifice the election agent. He is bound to be appointed; we want a good man, and a qualified man, and I want to make sure that he shall be paid. It seems to me it would be far better to secure that by providing specifically that he shall be paid. I do not myself particularly like the idea of adding it to personal expenses, but I want to make it a specific provision, and, of course, include in the return of expenses exactly what is paid to the agent. That being my object, I am obliged to the Home Secretary for his appreciation that that is my object. I can quite see it is impossible at this stage to come to a definite conclusion on a point of this character, and I would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment, so that in the interval the point may be considered, and we may fairly meet the case at a later stage.

I wish to say only one or two words, and those will be based mainly on my own experience of the cost of working an election so efficiently as to win it. I think the scale proposed is very generous. I was roughly calculating just now, and I find it would allow a maximum expenditure in my constituency, which will still remain a two-member constituency, of £1,000 per candidate. I have fought that constituency three times successfully, and on no occasion—including the returning officer's fee of £150—have I spent £350. My opponents—my unsuccessful opponents—have on every occasion spent three times as much, or, at any rate, three times as much has been given in their return of expenses. I am quite sure a great deal of the expense incurred by candidates in the past has been unnecessary and has not been productive. I am quite sure elections could be fought honestly and effectively on the amount allowed in the scale as it appears at the present moment, and I should very much regret if this Committee were to agree in any shape or form to increase the figure that is now in the Bill. I do not object to the hon. Member (Mr. G. Thorne) withdrawing his Amendment for future discussion, but I think it necessary just to say this, because it would not conduce to the purity of elections if a too-generous scale of expanses were allowed.

Amendment negatived.

I cannot allow any wide discussion on the next Amendment, because it has already been covered very largely.

I beg to move to leave out the word "sevenpence" ["sevenpence for each elector"], and to insert instead thereof the words "one shilling."

I move this Amendment only for the purpose of putting the matter before the House. I do not think we ought to proceed with any Amendments whatever on the scale—there are a good many here—because obviously this matter must come up again on the Report stage. The Home Secretary has not said to the House that he will reconsider the matter before the Report stage, but I think the expressions of opinion given to-night really require him to consider the matter carefully, and probably to do something from his own point of view on the Report stage. Therefore, it would be quite absurd, I think, to proceed to consider any Amendments of the scale now, excepting on the one point raised in the Amendment which I have on the Paper. I do not care what figures are put in in the least, but I do wish to see the question of groups of boroughs considered. That proposal is not affected by the question of the agent's fee. Beyond that, although I formally move this Amendment, I would prefer to leave it to be dealt with on the Report stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move to leave out the word "sevenpence" ["sevenpence for each elector"], and to insert instead thereof the word "eight-pence." Is the Home Secretary really going to consider the matter on Report? He did not say so.

I shall of course consider the points raised, but I have given no particular promise. This is a scale which I think I must adhere to. The question of election agents' fees is to be raised again on Report, and I certainly do not desire to avoid any arguments, but I have given no promise.

Yes, but we have had a discussion for an hour and a half on the same point.

I put the Amendment down because the home Secretary put down an Amendment—it is at the bottom of the page—to leave out in the case of boroughs "fourpence," and insert "fivepence."

That is only to correct a mistake in the printing of the Bill. I simply insert the figure agreed to in the Conference.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move to leave out the words "in the case of an election for a borough returning three or more members, to fivepence, for each elector on the register." This is merely consequential.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: Leave out the words "any other" ["an election for any other borough"], and insert instead thereof the word "a."—[ Mr. Dickinson .]

Leave out the word "fourpence" ["fourpence for each elector"], and insert instead thereof the word "fivepence.".—[ Sir G. Cave .]

I beg to move, after the word "register" ["fourpence for each elector on the register"], to insert the words "in the case of an election for a group of burghs in Scotland sixpence for each elector on the register."

I think that there ought to be some difference between the ordinary boroughs and those groups of burghs which are scattered and in which greater expense must be incurred with regard to meetings and so on. In a division of the city of Glasgow you may have to hold only one big meeting in a hall which will serve the whole constituency, while in a group of six, such as my group will consist of after the redistribution, you must hold one meeting in a hall in each place, which will cause expense, as the owners of the hall make a practice of rack renting it. I think that a rent of £4 on an ordinary occasion becomes £10 or more for a meeting of this kind. I am afraid that that discrimination will continue, whatever we do here. Therefore, there should be some provision to meet these charges, and consequent charges, in constituencies scattered over five or six different places. I propose 6d. as a medium between 4d. and 7d. I do not know what the right hon. Member for Dumfries Burghs thinks about that. Though his burghs are not so scattered as mine, yet he knows that under the old scale it was extremely difficult to work these places, and under the new scale it would be almost impossible.

I am sorry that I cannot agree with the hon. Baronet. I have no longer any personal interest, because the group of burghs which I have the honour of representing is gone. In the old days there was a considerable number of groups of burghs which were very much scattered and were difficult to deal with. But the hon. Baronet will not have this difficulty any longer. The new groups of burghs in Scotland are not scattered any more. They are very compact. His own little group runs along the coast of Ayrshire. The burghs are practically contiguous. They have the same newspaper circulation. There is a railway going along the coast, and the burghs are more like a city with half a dozen wards. I fail to see why they should be treated differently from any other boroughs. Dumbarton consists of Dumbarton and Clydebank. Montrose includes Falkirk, Stirling, and Grangemouth. Dumfermline consists of Dumfermline and three burghs in close vicinity. Kirkcaldy Burghs go along the shores of Fife in the same way as Ayr Burghs go along the shores of Ayr. In all those cases we have not the old scattered burghs, but extremely compact burghs, much more like wards than separate burghs. The object is to keep down expenses in every way. We are not entitled to make an exception for the groups of burghs, as the hon. Baronet suggests. There is one group in England—the Medway boroughs, Rochester and Chatham—and there is also the Welsh group—the Canarvon boroughs—and——

That is my point exactly. The hon. Baronet's boroughs are one town, and I do not think that we should accept his Amendment.

I quite agree with what has fallen from the hon. Member for Dumfries Burghs. The new group of burghs in Scotland are nothing like the present groups, which are very far apart. Under the redistribution in Scotland they are absolutely contiguous, and there is no more expense incurred in meetings in such groups than there is in a town where you have to hold meetings in two or three different parts. Compare it with a county like mine, where there are twenty-three different places which have to be visited. I do not think that we should deviate from the principle of the Speaker's Conference, but that we should keep down expense.

I support what has been urged against the Amendment. It is a distinct departure from the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference, of which the hon. Baronet was a member.

I beg the hon. Baronet's pardon; I thought he was. It is also an attempt to raise the scale of aggregate expense, which we have been discussing a great deal this afternoon. I am in favour of keeping aggregate expenditure as low as possible, and on that ground alone I would oppose this. There is a third reason which was put forward with force by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Gulland), that under the redistribution these groups of burghs will be very much more convenient than they have been in the past, and will be as easy to work as one single borough. No case has been made out for increasing the scale, and I hope that the Government will not accept the Amendment.

I listened with great interest to the unsympathetic reception of my Amendment. Now that I see the Secretary for Scotland present I want to appeal to him. The hon. Member for Renfrew said that it was one thing to have twenty-three meetings in a county and another thing to have a meeting in a group of boroughs of the type which Ayr Burghs will become. I have also had the experience to which he refers, and my experience is that the meetings were nearly always held in board schools, which you do not pay for, or you get them for 5s. a night and light. Therefore there is no cost. But when you come to hire halls in places like Ayr, Irvine, Ardrossan, and Troon you may have to pay a rent of £10, and there must be at least two meetings in each place. I think it unreasonable to suggest that a group like that should be treated exactly in the manner of expense like a division in Glasgow, where perhaps there is one hall in which you hold two meetings, while the rest of your oratory is partially exhausted in the open air and partially received by those who stand nearest to you and hear you at the street corner. I will not press my Amendment if hon. Members are unsympathetic. But I would like to know what the Secretary for Scotland thinks about it. I think that he will agree with me to an extent to which some of my hon. Friends have not done.

I could not possibly accept this Amendment. The group of district burghs will be treated as a borough and not as a county. The position is no worse under the Bill than it is to-day. This embodies the recommendations of the Committee, and I cannot depart from it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Amendment made: Leave out Schedule IV.—[ Sir G. Cave .]

Fifth Schedule.—Adaptation of Acts

1. A reference to Parliamentary electors registered under this Act shall be substituted for any reference in any other Act to Parliamentary electors, Parliamentary voters, or persons entitled to vote at Parliamentary elections, by whatever name called.

2. A reference to local government electors registered under this Act shall be substituted for any reference in any other Act to local government electors, county electors, burgesses, parochial electors, or other persons entitled to vote at a local government election, by what ever name called.

3. A reference to the register kept in pursuance of this Act shall, so far as it relates to Parliamentary electors be substituted for any reference in any Act to the Parliamentary register of electors, or to the Parliamentary register, or to the register of Parliamentary electors, or to the register of persons entitled to vote at a Parliamentary election, by whatever name called, and so far as it relates to the local government register shall be substituted for the local government register of electors, the burgess roll, the county register, the register of parochial electors, and for the register of persons entitled to vote at a local government election, by whatever name called.

4 The registration officer shall be substituted for the overseers in Sections eleven and twelve of the Parliamentary and Municipal Registration Act, 1878, and in any other enactment dealing with the duties of the overseers in connection with the registration of electors; and in Sections thirty-nine and sixty-nine of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883, "registration officer" means the registration officer under this Act.

5. The Local Government Board may, by Order, make such further adaptations in the provisions of any Act (including any local Act and any Act to confirm a Provisional Order and any scheme under the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882, as amended by any subsequent Act) as may seem to them necessary to make those provisions conform with the provisions of this Act; and any Order so made shall operate as if enacted in this Act.

As respects Scotland the Secretary for Scotland, and as respects Ireland the Local Government Board for Ireland, shall be substituted for the Local Government Board in this provision.

Special Adaptation of Acts for Scotland .

6. The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1832 (2 and 3 Will 4, c. 65):

In Section twenty-eight the reference to Schedule to that Act annexed shall be construed as a reference to the Fourth Schedule to this Act.

Section thirty-eight shall apply as if this Act were mentioned therein as well as the Act therein mentioned.

The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1835 (5 and 6 Will. 4, c. 78):

Section eleven shall apply as if this Act were mentioned therein as well as the Act therein mentioned.

The County Electors (Scotland) Act, 1853 (16 and 17 Vict., c. 28):

In Section five the expression "hereinafter provided" shall be deemed to include the provisions of this Act.

In Section six the words "the assessor before the first day of February or the first day of August as the case may be in any year" shall be substituted for the words "the sheriff at the registration Court of the county."

The Burgh Voters Registration (Scotland) Act, 1856 (19 and 20 Vict. c. 58):

Section twelve shall apply to documents published under the Act as it applies to documents affixed under that Act.

Section thirteen shall apply to documents required to be published under this Act as it applies to the lists mentioned in that Section.

Sections forty and forty-five shall apply as if this Act were mentioned therein in addition to the Act therein mentioned.

The County Voters Registration (Scotland) Act, 1861 (24 and 25 Vict. c. 83):

Section forty-three shall apply with the substitution of the registration officer for the sheriff, and of the words "when he next compiles the register" for the words, "in his registration court."

The Representation of the People Scotland) Act, 1868 (31 and 32 Vict. C. 48):

Section twenty-three shall apply as if appeals from the Sheriff Court under this Act were mentioned therein instead of the appeals therein mentioned.

In Section twenty-four the references to Schedules A and B to that Act annexed shall be construed as references to the First and Second Parts respectively of the Fourth Schedule to this Act.

The Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889 (52 and 53 Vict. C. 50)

In Section six, the words "in the Representation of the People Act, 1917," Shall be substituted for the word "hereinafter."

The Town Councils (Scotland) Act. 1900 (63 and 64 Vict. C. 49):

In Section twenty-three the words "registered as local government electors for the burgh in accordance with the provisions of the representation of the People Act, 1917," shall be substituted for the words, "entitled in respect of premises within the municipal boundary to vote in the election of a Member of Parliament."

Special Adaptation of Acts for Ireland

7. The Juries Act (Ireland) 1871 (34 and 35 Vict. C. 65):

In Sections twelve and fourteen, a reference to the County Court shall be substituted for a reference to the Court at which the register of Parliamentary voters is revised.

The Parliamentary Registration (Ireland Act, 1885 (48 and 49 Vict. C. 17):

In Section sixteen the registration officer shall be substituted for the clerk of the union; "first of July and first of January" shall be substituted for "first of July" where it first occurs; and "first of January and first of July" shall be substituted for "first of July" where it secondly occurs and the word "male" shall be omitted.

Amendments made: In paragraph 2, after the word "shall" insert the words "so far as local government elections and the right to vote at any such elections are concerned."

At end of paragraph 2 insert the words, "and local government electors so registered shall for all purposes, whether statutory or not, be in the same position as any such local government electors, county electors, burgesses, parochial electors, or persons."

After paragraph 4 insert

"5. In order to provide for election and voting in any university constituencies constituted under this Act, where the election and voting in the constituency are not regulated under existing Acts, the Local Government Board shall apply thereto such provisions of any existing Acts relating to elections and voting at any university constituency in Great Britain as appear to the Board expedient for the purpose with such modifications as seem necessary."— Sir G Cave .

I beg to move, after the words last added, to insert the following new paragraph:

6. Sub-section (4) of Section forty of the Local Government Act, 1888 (which makes the number of county councillors and the boundaries of the county electoral divisions in London depend on the number of members for Parliamentary boroughs and the boundaries of Parliamentary boroughs and divisions in London), shall have effect as if the words "for the time being" were substituted for the words "at the passing of this Act."

We are now altering the Parliamentary constituencies, and unless this Amendment is adopted there will be a considerable overlapping of boundaries. It has been represented to me that the effect of this Amendment would be to decrease unduly the county council membership of certain important boroughs in London, and there have been arguments founded on weighty reasons against decreasing the membership. I think, however, that we are bound to have regard to the new divisions, and if the result should be that the representation on the county council of some great borough in London is insufficient, that can be considered apart from this Bill, and I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board will give attention to it.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: After the words last inserted; add,

"7. Sections eleven and thirteen of The Parliamentary and Municipal Registration Act, 1878, shall be adapted so as to be applicable to parishes situated in any constituency or in any local government area, and for that purpose 'constituency' shall be substituted in that section for 'Parliamentary borough,' 'local government area' for 'municipal borough,' and 'registered as a local government elector' for 'enrolled as a burgess.'"—[ Sir G. Cave .]

I beg to move, in paragraph 6, to leave out the words "The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1835 (5 and 6) Will. 4, c. 78:

"Section eleven shall apply as if this Act were mentioned therein as well as the Act therein mentioned."

The right hon. Gentleman has a number of similar Amendments on the Paper, and I should be glad of some explanation.

Some of these Amendments are for the purpose of repealing existing Sections of Statutes which have been superseded or covered by provisions in the Bill or by the Rules in Schedule 1 of the Bill. Certain of the Amendments are purely drafting Amendments. The Amendment I have moved is a typical one. It leaves out Section 11 of the Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1835, and that Section is covered by Section 30 of the Bill as amended.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In paragraph 6, leave out the word "assessor" and insert instead thereof the words "registration officer."

After the word "county" ["Sheriff at the registration Court of the county"], insert the words "and the words 'and the registration officer' shall be substituted for the words 'and the sheriff.'"—[ Mr. Munro .]

I beg to move, in paragraph 6, to leave out the words "The Burghs Voters Registration (Scotland) Act, 1856 (19 and 20 Vic., c. 58)—Section twelve shall apply to documents published under this Act as it applies to documents affixed under that Act. Section thirteen shall apply to documents required to be published under this Act as it applies to the lists mentioned in that Section. Sections forty and forty-five shall apply as if this Act were mentioned therein in addition to the Act therein mentioned."

By this Amendment I propose to omit certain Sections of the Burgh Voters Registration (Scotland) Act, 1856, which will now be repealed under Schedule 6 of the Bill. Section 12 provides a penalty for injury. These Sections are superseded by the Bill, or removing lists, and Section 13 provides that the lists shall not be invalidated by insufficient publication. These are covered by Rule 23 of Schedule 1. Section 14 applies to penalties for failure in registration duties. The registration officer is now liable to penalties for any failure under Clause 11 of the Bill. The town clerk is now no longer concerned in the matter. Section 45 covers sheriffs, town clerks, and other officers. The sheriffs have no administrative duties whatever in connection with registration, and as returning officer is liable to penalties under the Ballot Act. The assessor will be liable as registration officer. Town clerks and other officers have neither part nor lot in the matter, and therefore it is proposed to leave out those words.

Amendment agreed to.

SIXTH SCHEDULE.—ENACTMENTS REPEALED.

Session and Chapter.

Title or Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

8 Hen. 6. c. 7.

Electors of knights of the shires shall have 40s. a year freehold and be resident.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

10 Hen. 6. c. 2.

The Statute 8 Hen. 6. c. 7 as to freehold qualification of electors of knights of the shires; such freeholds shall be within the county.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

I beg to move, in paragraph 6, after the word "Act" ["First and Second Parts respectively of the Fourth Schedule of this Act"], to insert the words,

"The Registration Amendment (Scotland) Act, 1885 (48 and 49 Vic., c. 16),—

In Section six, for the words 'dwelling-house within the meaning of The Representation of the People Act, 1884,' there shall be substituted the words 'house or part of a house occupied as a separate dwelling: provided that no such entry shall render liable to be rated in respect of any such house or part of a house any person who occupies the same by virtue of any office, service, or employment.'"

It was proposed to repeal Section six, which requires certain particulars to be entered in the valuation roll, due originally to the Service franchise. The retention of the franchise for local government purposes is a reason for retaining the Section in question. Local authorities think that the entry in the roll will still be useful. If retained the Section requires adaptation, owing to the repeal of the Reform Act of 1884.

I think this has a bearing on the question that was raised on another Clause of the Bill as to the meaning of "dwelling house," and I would just like to express my appreciation of the way in which my right hon. Friend has dealt with the matter.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In paragraph 6, after the word "In" ["In Section twenty-three the words"], insert the words "Sub-section (1) of."—[ Mr. Munro ]

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Session and Chapter.

Title or Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

7 & 8 Will. 3. c. 25.

An Act for the further regulating elections of members to serve in Parliament, and for the preventing irregular proceedings of sheriffs and other officers in the electing and returning such members.

Section six.

10 Anne, c. 31.

The Elections (Fraudulent Conveyances) Act, 1711.

The whole Act so tar as unrepealed.

13 Geo. 2. c. 20.

The Parliamentary Elections (Fraudulent Conveyances) Act, 1739.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

18 Geo. 2. c. 18.

The Parliamentary Elections Act, 1744.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

19 Geo. 2. c. 28.

The Parliamentary Elections Act, 1745.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

3 Geo. 3. c. 15.

The Freemen (Admission) Act, 1763.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

20 Geo. 3. c. 17.

The Parliamentary Elections Act, 1780.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

53 Geo. 3. c. 49.

The Parliamentary Elections Act, 1813.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

4 Geo. 4. c. 36.

The Joint Tenancy (Ireland) Act, 1823.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

4 Geo. 4. c. 55.

The Parliamentary Elections (Ireland) Act, 1823.

Sections twenty-four, twenty-six, twenty-seven, and twenty-eight.

2 & 3 Will. 4. c. 45.

The Representation of the People Act, 1832.

The whole Act (except sections sixty-four, sixty-six, sixty-eight, seventy, seventy-one, seventy-six and seventy-seven, and the definition of" returning officer" in section seventy-nine; the words "barrister, overseer," in section seventy-six wherever they occur.

2 & 3 Will. 4. c. 65.

The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1832.

Sections two to four, six to thirteen; section twenty-seven from "Provided always" to "each polling place"; section thirty-five; section forty, and the Schedules so far as unrepealed.

2 & 3 Will. 4. c. 88.

The Representation of the People (Ireland) Act, 1832.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed except sections eleven, twelve, and sixty.

5 & 6 Will. 4. c. 78.

The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1835.

Sections four, nine, and ten.

Session and Chapter.

Title or Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

3 & 4 Vict. c. 108.

The Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Act, 1840.

Sections six and eight to ten.

6 & 7 Vict. c. 18.

The Parliamentary Voters Registration Act, 1843.

The whole Act (except sections eighty-one, eighty-two, eighty-five to ninety-one, and ninety-seven, and the definition of "returning officer" in section one hundred and one).

11 & 12 Vict. c. 90.

The Parliamentary Elections Act, 1848.

The whole Act.

12 & 13 Vict. c. 85.

The Dublin Corporation Act, 1849.

Sections two, three, six, seven, and ten to twelve.

13 & 14 Vict. c. 68.

The Parliamentary Elections (Ireland) Act, 1850.

Sections six to eight; section nine from "the persons on the register" to "not elsewhere, and" and the words "in respect of any property qualification or."

13 & 14 Vict. c. 69.

The Representation of the People (Ireland) Act, 1850.

Sections one to nine, thirteen to sixteen, nineteen to twenty-seven, twenty-nine to thirty-eight, section forty-two from "but every" to "hereinafter directed"; sections forty-three, forty-four, forty-seven to fifty, fifty-two to eighty-four, eighty-seven, one hundred and ten to one hundred and fourteen.

14 & 15 Vict. c. 14.

The Compound Householders Act, 1851.

The whole Act.

14 & 15 Vict. c. 57.

The Civil Bill Courts (Ireland) Act, 1851.

Section one hundred and sixty-one.

16 & 17 Vict. c. 28.

The County Elections (Scotland) Act, 1853.

In section six the words "not being a freeholder and."

16 & 17 Vict. c. 58.

The Dublin Parliamentary Revising Act, 1853.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

17 & 18 Vict. c. 91.

The Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act, 1854.

Section thirty-four.

19 & 20 Vict. c. 58.

The Burgh Voters Registration (Scotland) Act, 1856.

Section two except the proviso, sections three to seven, nine to eleven, section thirteen from "and the" to "aforesaid"; sections sixteen to twenty-six, twenty-nine to thirty-one, thirty-four to thirty-nine, forty-two to forty-four, forty-six, and the Schedules.

20 & 21 Vict. c. 68.

The Dublin Revising Barristers Act, 1857.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

24 & 25 Vict. c. 60.

The Representation of the People (Ireland) Act, 1861.

The whole Act.

Session and Chapter.

Title or Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

24 & 25 Vict. c. 83.

The County Voters Registration (Scotland) Act, 1861.

Section four to "thereof"; sections seven, eight, ten, and twenty-two.

27 & 28 Vict. c. 22.

The Registration of County Voters (Ireland) Act, 1864.

Sections ten to twelve and fourteen to nineteen.

28 & 29 Vict. c. 36.

The County Voters Registration Act, 1865.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

29 & 30 Vict. c. 54.

The Revising Barristers Act, 1866.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

30 & 31 Vict. c. 102.

The Representation of the People Act, 1867.

The whole Act (except sections one, two, seven, eleven, thirty-four, thirty-seven, forty-one to forty-five, forty-nine to fifty-two, fifty-seven, fifty-nine, and sixty-one); section thirty-four from "and shall name" to "places not so named," and from "where any parish" to "division of the borough into polling districts."

31 & 32 Vict. c. 48.

The Representation of the People (Scotland) Act, 1868.

Sections three to six, sections nine to fourteen, sections sixteen to twenty, sections twenty-two, twenty-six, forty-two, forty-five, forty-seven to fifty, fifty-three, fifty-six, and in section fifty-nine the definition of "premises," and Schedules A., B., C., D., and I.

31 & 32 Vict. c. 49.

The Representation of the People (Ireland) Act, 1868.

Sections three to seven, fourteen, sixteen, and seventeen.

31 & 32 Vict. c. 58.

The Parliamentary Electors Registration Act, 1868.

The whole Act (except sections one, two, twenty-one, and section twenty-three so far as it relates to returning officers).

31 & 32 Vict. c. 112.

The Registration Amendment (Ireland) Act, 1868.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed (except sections thirty-three and thirty-four), and the proviso to section thirty-three.

32 & 33 Vict. c. 41.

The Poor Rate Assessment and Collection Act, 1869.

Section seven so far as it relates to franchise and any disqualification which depends on franchise; section ten, and section nineteen so far as it relates to franchise and any disqualification which depends on franchise.

35 & 36 Vict. c. 33.

The Ballot Act, 1872

Sub-section five of section sixteen.

36 & 37 Vict. c. 70.

The Revising Barristers Act, 1873.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed,

Session and Chapter.

Title or Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

37 & 38 Vict. c. 53.

The Revising Barristers Act, 1874.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

38 & 39 Vict. c. 77.

The Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1875.

In section twenty-three, the words "or the distribution of revising barristers among the circuits," and from "and the senior judge" to "boroughs therein."

38 & 39 Vict. c. 84

The Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1875.

Sections two to five, and section seven, and the Schedules.

40 & 41 Vict. c. 57.

The Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland) Act, 1877.

Sub-section (2) of section twenty-three from "including" to the end of the sub-section.

41 & 42 Vict. c. 3.

The House Occupiers Disqualification Removal Act, 1878.

The whole Act

41 & 42 Vict. c. 5.

The House Occupiers Disqualification Removal (Scotland) Act, 1878.

The whole Act.

41 & 42 Vict. c. 26.

The Parliamentary and Municipal Registration Act, 1878.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed, except sections one, two, eleven to fourteen, and nineteen.

41 & 42 Vict. c. 41.

The Parliamentary Elections Returning Officers' Expenses (Scotland) Act, 1878.

Section three and the Schedule.

41 & 42 Vict. c. 41.

The Parliamentary Elections Returning Officers' Expenses (Scotland) Act, 1878.

Section three and the Schedule.

41 & 42 Vict. c. 78.

The Education (Scotland) Act, 1878.

Section twenty-four.

42 & 43 Vict. c. 10.

The Assessed Rates Act, 1879.

The whole Act so far as it relates to franchise and any disqualification which depends on franchise.

42 & 43 Vict. c. 71.

The Registry Courts (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1879.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

43 & 44 Vict. c. 6.

The House Occupiers in Counties Disqualification Removal (Scotland) Act, 1880.

The whole Act.

45 & 46 Vict. c. 50.

The Municipal Corporations Act, 1882.

Section nine; sub-section (1) of sections thirty-three, forty-four, paragraphs (1) to (7) of section forty-five, sections forty-six to forty-eight and seventy-one.

Session and Chapter.

Title or Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

46 & 47 Vict. c. 51.

The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883.

Sub-sections (3) to (8) of section thirty-nine; the definitions of "registration officer" in sections sixty-four and sixty-eight; sub-section (12) of section sixty-eight; sub-section (4) of section sixty-nine from "in the manner" to the end of the sub-section.

48 & 49 Vict. c. 3.

The Representation of the People Act, 1884.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

48 & 49 Vict. c. 15.

The Registration Act, 1885

The whole Act so far as unrepealed (except sections thirteen, sixteen, nineteen, and twenty); the definitions of "ownership voter," "fifty pounds rental voter," and "occupation voter" in section nineteen.

48 & 49 Vict. c. 16.

The Registration Amendment (Scotland) Act, 1885.

Sections four to eight, ten, thirteen to fifteen, and seventeen.

48 & 49 Vict. c. 17.

The Parliamentary Registration (Ireland) Act, 1885.

Sections two to four, six, eight, thirteen, fifteen, seventeen to thirty.

48 & 49 Vict. c. 23.

The Redistribution of Seats Act, 1885.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed, except sections one, fifteen, and sixteen.

48 & 49 Vict. c. 62.

The Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act, 1885.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

49 & 50 Vict. c. 42

The Revising Barristers Act, 1886.

The whole Act.

49 & 50 Vict. c. 43.

The Revising Barristers (Ireland) Act, 1886.

The whole Act.

49 & 50 Vict c. 58.

The Returning Officers (Scotland) Act, 1886.

The whole Act.

50 & 51 Vict. sess. 2, c. 9.

The Police Disabilities Removal Act, 1887.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

51 & 52 Vict. c. 10.

The County Electors Act, 1888.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed, except the short title in section one and section twelve.

51 & 52 Vict. c. 41.

The Local Government Act, 1888.

Sections seventy-six and seventy-seven.

52 & 53 Vict. c. 50.

The Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889.

Sub-section (4) of section eight, and sections twenty-eight and twenty-nine.

53 & 54 Vict. c. 58.

The Parliamentary Expenses (Ireland) Act, 1890.

The whole Act so far as unrepealed.

Session and Chapter.

Title or Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

54 & 55 Vict. c. 11.

The Electoral Disabilities Removal Act, 1891.

The whole Act.

54 & 55 Vict. c. 18.

The Registration of Electors Act, 1891.

The whole Act.

54 & 55 Vict. c. 49.

The Returning Officers (Scotland) Act, 1891.

Section three and the Schedule.

54 & 55 Vict. c. 68.

The County Councils (Elections) Act, 1891.

Section two.

56 & 57 Vict. c. 73.

The Local Government Act, 1894.

Section forty-three and forty-four.

57 & 58 Vict. c 58.

The Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894.

Sub-section (1) of section ten from "Provided that" to the end of the subsection; sections eleven and twelve.

59 & 60 Vict. c. 17.

The Glasgow Parliamentary Division Act, 1896.

The whole Act.

61 & 62 Vict. C. 2.

The Registration (Ireland) Act, 1898.

The whole Act.

61 & 62 Vict. c. 37.

The Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898.

Section ninety-eight except sub-section (8); section one hundred and nine from "The expression 'revising barrister'" to "1885."

63 & 64 Vict. c. 29.

The London County Council Electors Qualification Act, 1900.

The whole Act.

63 & 64 Vict. c. 49.

The Town Councils (Scotland) Act, 1900.

Section twenty-three, from the words "all persons who would have been entitled" to the end of the section; and sections twenty-four to thirty-two.

3 Edw. 7. c. 34.

The Town Councils (Scotland) Act, 1903.

Sections two and four.

8 Edw. 7. c. 21.

The Registration Act, 1908.

The whole Act.

8 Edw. 7. c. 35.

The Polling Districts and Registration of Voters (Ireland) Act, 1908.

Section three.

1 & 2 Geo. 5. c. 53.

The House Letting and Rating (Scotland) Act, 1911.

Section seven, proviso (3) from the words "Provided that for the purposes of any-qualification or franchise" to end of that proviso; and section eight.

4 & 5 Geo. 5. c. 25.

The Electoral Disabilities (Naval and Military Service) Removal Act, 1914.

The whole Act.

I beg to move, in paragraph beginning "2 and 3 Will. 4, c. 65," to leave out the words, "each polling place," and insert instead thereof the words, "the end of the Section."

The provision is now unnecessary, being covered by Clause 30.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made:

In the same paragraph, leave out the words, "Section thirty-five," and insert instead thereof the words, "Section thirty-seven."

After the word "forty," insert the words, "Section forty-two."

In paragraph beginning "5 and 6, Will. 4, c. 78," leave out the words, "and ten," and insert instead thereof the words, "ten and eleven."—[ Mr. Munro .]

In paragraph beginning "6 and 7 Vict., c. 18," leave out the words, "ninety-one," and insert instead thereof the words, "ninety, ninety-three."

After paragraph beginning "12 and 13 Vict., c. 85," insert the words, "13 and 14 Vict., c. 57; The Vestries Act, 1850; Section seven from 'To give the notices for claims' to 'for revising them, and,' and the words, 'burgess lists and the.'"—[ Sir George Cave .]

I beg to move, in paragraph beginning "19 and 20 Vic., c. 58," to leave out the words, "Section two except the proviso, Sections three to seven, nine to eleven, Section thirteen from 'and the' to 'aforesaid'; Sections sixteen to twenty-six, twenty-nine to thirty-one, thirty-four to thirty-nine, forty-two to forty-four, forty-six, and the Schedules," and to insert instead thereof the words, "The whole Act so far as un-repealed, except Sections one, eight, fifteen, and forty-eight."

The effect of this Amendment is to repeal the following provisions of the Act of 1856: Proviso to Section 2, enabling a person qualified to be registered to have his name omitted on written application to the registration officer, which is somewhat inconsistent with the new system. Sections 12 and 13, which are now covered by Rule 23 of Schedule 1. Section 14, which is covered by Rule 31. Section 40, a penalty section, already explained under Schedule 5. Section 41, consequential on repeal of Section 40. Section 45, another penalty section, superseded as I have already explained.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in paragraph beginning "31 and 32 Vict., c. 48," after the words "fifty-three," to insert the words "fifty-five."

This provides that the register of electors shall not be prejudiced by appeal against the officers' registration.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: At the end of paragraph beginning "35 and 36 Vict., c 33," insert the words "and Section thirty-three from 'and shall continue in force' to the end of the Section."

In paragraph beginning "40 and 41 Vict., c. 57," after the word "Schedules," insert the words "except so far as those Sections and Schedules apply to elections other than Parliamentary elections."

In paragraph beginning "41 and 42 Vict., c. 26," after the word "two" ["two, eleven"], insert the word "and."

In the same paragraph, leave out the words "and nineteen."

Leave out paragraph beginning "41 and 42 Vict., c. 41."

After paragraph beginning "45 and 46 Vict., c. 50," insert the words "44 and 45 Vict., c. 68; the Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1881; Section fourteen, as far as respects registration matters"—[ Sir G. Cave .]

In the absence of the hon. Member (Mr. Holt), who gave notice, I desire to move the following Amendment: After the word "nine" ["The Muncipal Corporations Acts, 1882, Section nine"], to insert "Sub-sections (2), (3), and (4) of Section eleven."

That appears to me to be an attempt to pass into law a new proposal by Schedule. The intention of the Schedule is to carry out the previous decisions of the Committee in some form or other. This is not the proper way to raise a subject which should be raised either by some proposed amendment to a Clause or as a new Clause.

Amendments made: In paragraph beginning "45 and 46 Vict. c. 50, the Municipal Corporations Act, 1882," leave out the words "Sub-section (1) of."

After the word "Section" insert the words "thirty-two and."

After the word "thirty-three" insert the words "Sub-section (3) of Section forty-two, Section."

Leave out the word "forty-eight," and insert instead thereof the words "forty-nine, sixty-three."

At the end insert "and seventy-six, Sub-sections (1) and (3) of Section two hundred and nine, Section two hundred and forty-four, Part I., of the Third Schedule, in Rule four of Part II. of the Third Schedule, the words 'or entered in the separate non-resident list required by this Act to be made,' Part IV. of the Third Schedule, Rule one of Part II. of the Fifth Schedule so far as respects expenses incurred in relation to the enrolment of burgesses, Form A in Part I. of the Eighth Schedule from 'and I hereby declare' to the end, and Forms C to G in Part II. of the Eighth Schedule."

In paragraph beginning "46 and 47 Vict., c. 51, The Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act, 1883," insert at the beginning "Sub-section (2) of Section thirty-two: paragraph ( c ) of Sub-section (1), of Section thirty-three."

At the end insert "paragraph 1 of Part II. of the First Schedule; in paragraphs 1 and 2 of Part IV. of the First Schedule the words 'and sums paid to the returning officer for his charges'; in the 'Form of Return of Election Expenses' in Part I. of the Second Schedule the first paragraph under the heading 'Expenditure.'"

After paragraph beginning "48 and 49 Vict., c. 3," insert ''48 and 49 Vict., c. 9; the Municipal Voters Relief Act, 1885; the whole Act so far as unrepealed.—[ Sir G. Cave .]

I beg to move, in paragraph beginning "48 and 49 Vict., c. 16," to leave out the words "Section four to," and insert instead thereof the words, "Section three, except so far as it relates to the valuation roll, Sections four and five, Sections seven."

Section three of the Act of 1885 which I propose to repeal relates to the prescribing by Order in Council of certain forms, in the first place, as to registration purposes, and, in the second place, to the valuation roll. In so far as the Section relates to registration purposes it will be superseded by the provisions of the Bill, but in so far as it relates to the valuation roll it seems to be necessary to preserve it, and that is the purpose of this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Notice had been given of the following Amendment by Mr. G. THORNE:

In paragraph beginning "48 and 49 Vict., c. 23," to leave out the words "Section one," and to insert instead thereof "Section one, Sub-section (3) of Section eight and Sections."

This Amendment seems to me to be contrary to what has been already passed.

I submit that this is the only way in which this Amendment can be raised. The effect of the Clause as it stands will be to repeal the existing law, and the matter is one which seriously affects divided boroughs. Under the existing law, by the Redistribution of Seats Act, 1885, Section 8, Sub-section (3), it is provided that where any Parliamentary borough was divided into divisions in pursuance of the Section a person shall not be registered as entitled to vote, and shall not vote in more than one such division. The reason why I submit the question is because of the altered circumstances under which we are now placed. I want to follow the terms of the Conference. I understand that there was a kind of balanced compromise, but the balance has been broken by reason of the fact that proportional representation has not been adopted. Under proportional representation the operation of this provision would be entirely different. The idea of proportional representation was to form five divisions of a borough into one constituency, or where there were larger boroughs to divide them into constituencies of not more than five each. Thus in Glasgow there would not be more than three constituencies, where, I believe, there are now fifteen divisions. With proportional representation gone there will be fifteen constituencies, and what was a very small matter and practically of no importance when a city like Glasgow was to be divided into three constituencies becomes a matter of considerable importance now that it is to be divided into fifteen constituencies, if an elector is to have two votes, one for his place of residence and one for his occupation. That is the position. I think it should be discussed on the merits.

This is an insidious attempt to interfere with the business qualification vote. We have already settled there is to be a double vote and that each division of a town is to be a separate constituency. This proposal gets rid of both of those settlements, which are now in the Bill.

I can assure the hon. Baronet that there is no insidious attempt to upset anything. I understand, Sir, that your ruling is this, that in the Schedule we ought not to make new legislative changes, but that the object of the Schedule is simply for convenience to carry out what is contained in the Act by removing from the Statute Book those Acts or those Sections which are either directly or virtually repealed by the provisions of the Bill. On that point I submit my hon. Friend's Amendment is in order, and that the proposal in the Schedule is not in order because the Schedule proposes to change existing legislation, for which there is no basis whatever in the Bill. Paragraph 11 of the Report of the Speaker's Conference says that a person shall not vote at a General Election in more than one constituency, provided that a person shall be entitled to one additional vote in respect of the occupation of his business premises or in respect of any qualification he may have as a university elector. Sub-section ( b ) states that for the purposes of this Resolution the expression "constituency" means "any county borough or combination of places or university or combination of universities returning a member or members to serve in Parliament," and where a county or borough is divided for the purpose of Parliamentary elections means "a division of the county or borough so divided." That is the basis which was laid down by the Conference, and that was the basis which was laid down in conjunction with——

The hon. Member is now dealing with the merits of the Amendment. I had some doubts as to allowing the Amendment to be moved, and I have decided, after what has been said, to give the benefit to the hon. Member for Woverhampton East (Mr. G. Thorne), and he may now move.

The question of what a constituency is is a most important point of Order, and it is useless to quote the Speaker's Conference on any question of order.

I beg to move the Amendment. I am much obliged to you, Sir, for your ruling, because whatever views we may have on the question it is one of very considerable moment. I want distinctly to carry out the arrangement of the Speaker's Conference so far as it is possible to do so.

6.0 P.M.

I was not a member of that Conference, so, therefore, I can only go by what I hear, or by inference. We have present here this afternoon members of the Conference who will be able to state exactly what their intentions were in the Report which the Speaker presented, and which we have before us. I understand that on a balance of arrangement there was a strong desire for proportional representation in our large towns. It was a desire which I personally share. I voted in favour of proportional representation. I believe it would be an advantage to the community to have it, and I am very sorry it has been abandoned. But seeing it has not been allowed, I have not the slightest objection to the terms of this Schedule. I quite agree that the change that takes place is a very minute one, and that it is of no real importance at all. But this altered arrangement, proportional representation going on the one hand, and this repealing of the Clause which I read a little while ago on the other, is a matter of very serious importance indeed. I should like to emphasise it, because in respect of a great city like Glasgow, with its many divisions, if proportional representation came into force the city would have three constituencies and three constituencies only. Therefore, this particular proposal would be a matter practically of no import. Under the new arrangement, proportional representation not being allowed, Glasgow will have fifteen constituencies. Therefore, the rearrangement of voting and duplication of voting, of a man having a vote in one constituency because he has a residence there and in another constituency because he has got business premises there, will be so enormously increased that I cannot believe that it is in accordance with the intentions of the Speaker's Conference. It was intended merely as a compromise, and we all accept the Speaker's Conference as a compromise. I am prepared to accept it as such. When one point, however, in the compromise is refused, surely other points in the compromise ought to go as well. I regarded it as a quid pro quo , but we seem to have given the "quid" and not to have got the "quo." It is very desirable, if there was a breach in the one, to make a similar breach in the other. I submit my proposal because I was not a member of the Speaker's Conference, and I cannot tell at first hand what were the intentions of that Conference; I can only gather inferentially. If proportional representation had been carried then, then I would have had no objection. But proportional representation not having been carried the situation is so entirely different, and the change is so great, that I do not believe that it is what the Speaker's Conference intended to recommend. Under the circumstances I appeal to the Home Secretary, who has been perfectly fair and courteous in connection with all these considerations, and who has shown an intense desire to carry out, not the letter, but the spirit of the Speaker's Conference. I ask him to recognise that there is force in my contention that under the present arrangement there will be so much departure—there has been no such departure since the Act of 1885—so as to be entirely different from what the Speaker's Conference proposed or what the country generally have anticipated. I trust, therefore, the right hon. and learned Gentleman will find it possible to meet us on this point so that what was really the desire shall be in some way carried out.

The effect of this Amendment would be that, if a man had a residence, say, in one constituency in a borough, and business premises in another he could not be registered for both. Just let us see what that means. The Conference recommends that a man may have two qualifications. He may qualify by residence and he may qualify by the occupation of business premises. He may have more than one qualification of that kind in a county, but he cannot vote for more than one. That is the effect of the Conference, and the effect of Clause 1 of the Bill, which was very fully discussed in this connection. I want to say most distinctly that in my judgment the effect of the Amendment would be to cut down Clause 1, a Clause which has already been passed by the Committee. The hon. Member spoke very kindly of me, and I assure him that that is my genuine opinion of the effect of this Amendment. Hon. Members will remember that on the discussion of the proportional representation Clause it was pointed out more than once that unless we had proportional representation this would be the effect of the Bill—which assumed, of course, that the Clause was to be read exactly as I read it. It seems to me that, that argument having failed on its merits, and the House having, notwithstanding that argument, cut out proportional representation, hon. Members want to go back on what we have done, and alter the effect of the Bill. I do not think that it can be expected that we should accept the Amendment. Let me make it quite clear. Let me point out to the Committee exactly what is the present position. The Subsection (3) which it is proposed to repeal provides that

"Where any Parliamentary borough is divided into divisions in pursuance of this Section a person shall not be registered as entitled to vote and shall not vote in more than one such division."

As regards registration, Clause (1), which deals with it, says that a man shall be entitled to be registered as a Parliamentary elector for a constituency, other than a university constituency, if he

"( a ) has the requisite residence qualification; or

( b ) has the requisite business premises qualification."

Following this comes the question of voting. If he has got on the register for both places, he can vote for the one in respect of residence and the other in respect of business premises. That is the effect of Clause (1) and Clause (7). The proposal of the hon. Gentleman would cut into the compromise at which the Conference arrived, and I hope the Amendment will not be pressed.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman must remember that when Clause (1) was under discussion in this House proportional representation was in the Bill. It was clearly said—I remember my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Walthamstow said it on Clause (1) and again when proportional representation was under discussion—that this matter would again come up, and he, therefore, did not press for a decision at that moment. He said it was a question which must be discussed later because it was of enormous importance. It was decided in a way the Home Secretary now suggests, and it has created, of course, an enormous new class of plural voters.

Yes; I do not think the argument of the Mover of the Amendment or the instance the hon. Gentleman has given are quite fair. I would rather take a case like Bradford or Edinburgh. At present a man is entitled to be registered on a variety of qualifications in Bradford. He may be registered as an owner in one division or as an occupier in another division, but he must make his choice. He cannot vote in both. There is a variety of qualifications, just as in this Bill there is a variety of qualifications. At present a man in Bradford must make his choice, and must be registered in not more than one division. The Speaker's Conference, and the Bill, says that Bradford is to be one constituency. Therefore a man can only have one vote in Bradford—that was as the Bill was introduced. That was how we fixed Clause (1). The Speaker's Conference was thrown over, and the Bill was thrown over, on the question of proportional representation. Then emerges the curious fact that a man in Bradford can be registered in two divisions and have two votes—a set of circumstances never suggested by the Speaker's Conference, and never contemplated when the right hon. and learned Gentleman introduced the Bill. That is a very serious thing. I do not think the country appreciated it until the matter came up to-day. The curious result is that a very large number of new plural voters will be created—I believe almost a larger number than there are at present. Certainly the plural voter is taken away from the county, but in all these boroughs I think the number will be very, very great because you have practically the whole of the business community now in all these boroughs. I appeal to the Home Secretary: what he suggests now is really a revolution.

One integral part of the compromise was the reduction of the plural vote in the constituencies. Now, it seems to me, to carry out that compromise in anything like the spirit the constituencies must be kept as they were in the old redistribution; that a man in a particular borough shall not be entitled to more than one vote.

The right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken speaks of the Home Secretary having proposed what he describes as a revolution. There is nothing in the statement of the Home Secretary of the position in regard to what is now known as the dual vote, but what was thrashed out exhaustively at the Speaker's Conference, and was not fully contemplated by every member of that Conference. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton, in moving his Amendment, spoke of his anxiety to support the whole of the balance of compromise of the Speaker's Conference. I frankly admit that the proportional representation proposals were part of the recommendations of the Conference. Like the hon. Member I regret their omission. Some of my hon. Friends who oppose proportional representation on its merits may consider the defeat of that part—a temporary defeat, I hope—of the Speaker's Conference resolutions as incidentally a slight advantage in somewhat increasing the number of cases in which the dual vote can be exercised. As the Conference has been referred to so often I think it is as well that the Committee should know that so far as the dual, as against the plural vote was concerned, it was discussed at a very much earlier period of the Conference than proportional representation, which was one of the latest subjects touched. The compromise, so far as it was a compromise, was between the present system of indefinite plural voting being exercised all over the country, and the other extreme of one man one vote. As neither was it reasonable to maintain the present plural voting system in any compromise, nor to go to the extreme of the demand which has been made so long in certain sections of the House that no man should be allowed under any circumstances to have more than one vote, it was recognised as a reasonable compromise that a man having separate business premises should be allowed to have a vote in two places. The effect of proportional representation on the part of the compromise would undoubtedly be to limit it in some of the towns to which the right hon. Gentleman has just referred, or to do away with the power of exercising the dual vote in certain cases. It seems to me to be a question that cannot be at all adequately discussed at this point of the Bill in this shape. It is perfectly clear that if a question of that importance is to be raised at all now, upsetting a vital part of the compromise in the Speaker's Conference, it ought to be raised on the Report stage. As the matter has now been ventilated, and the views of various hon. Members taken note of, my only object in rising is to point out that it is an entire mistake to suppose that the Home Secre- tary is proposing anything in the nature of a revolution or anything contrary to the compromise arrived at.

I took a very active part in the Speaker's Conference on this particular compromise, and, I am bound to say, I must entirely support what my right hon. Friend has said as to this being a revolution that is effected by striking out proportional representation and leaving this plural voting in the towns. I cannot at all agree with my hon. Friend who spoke last as to this having been agreed to in the Speaker's Conference. What we agreed to there was the very limited measure of plural voting in towns on the distinct understanding that there would be proportional representation to such an extent as to make that plural voting within the towns almost negligible.

It is only a question of recollection. Surely my hon. Friend will admit that this question of a dual vote was thrashed out, discussed and settled long before proportional representation was mentioned.

Not at all. Proportional representation was mentioned practically on the very first day of the Conference, if not the very first day. The late Noble Lord, Earl Grey, raised the question more than once at a very early stage of the proceedings. What really happened at the Conference in regard to this was that when the plural vote—that is to say, the freeholder's vote—was given up by hon. Gentlemen of the Unionist party, they expressly made a condition that they should have a business vote. We on the Liberal side did not like that at all, but we had to consider whether we would agree to it as part of the general compromise. We recognised that there must be a certain give-and-take, and we considered the matter, and I laid before my Friends certain facts and figures which, I think I may say, distinctly influenced their judgment in accepting the compromise. We saw quite clearly that if the business vote was given without any limitation it would result in a man casting two votes in the same town—a thing which had never been allowed hitherto, and which was entirely repugnant to all our principles—but I pointed out to my Friends that, of course, that had no application in the ordinary town with a single member or in the town with two members polled as one constituency, that under proportional representation it would have no practical effect with three, four, or five members, that it would only apply in towns with more than five members, and if you have a town divided into six separate constituencies the chance of a man who lives in one constituency having his business premises in one of the other constituencies is very great—you may say five to one—but if you have it only divided into two constituencies the chance is very small indeed. Moreover, in a single-member constituency, plural votes may change the result in every one of those divisions, whereas under proportional representation the number of those plural votes would not be sufficient as a general rule to affect any seats at all, and in the most extreme case they could not affect more than one seat in three, four, or five, as the case might be.

I put all those considerations before my Friends, and it was on the strength of those considerations that we allowed the business vote to extend to different divisions of the same town, because we knew—and our Conservative colleagues knew—quite well that by accepting proportional representation it would have a very small application indeed. Now, if you are striking out the proportional representation, it comes to this, that in Bradford, for instance, the plural vote in every one of the divisions might change the result in each case. We never agreed to plural voting in towns divided into single-member constituencies, and when the House struck out proportional representation they entirely destroyed the compromise which was come to on this matter. I say, therefore, we are entirely within our rights in objecting to the other part of the compromise, seeing that the quid pro quo is gone.

I wish to corroborate the version of the proceedings in the Conference which has just been given. I think it is extremely important that we should have the exact terms of the compromise then come to. I have no desire to enter into controversy with my hon. Friend the Member for Wilts (Mr. Peto), but I think his recollection is somewhat at fault when he suggests that proportional representation was no factor leading to the decision on this point. In the first place, a unanimous decision was come to on proportional representation before a decision was taken in regard to the dual vote. And I would remind the hon. Member that there was a very strong opposition to the creation of a dual vote, and that the opposition was first of all modified, and finally withdrawn, when it was pointed out by Mr. Speaker himself that the creation of new dual votes would only apply to a very limited number of constituencies, such as Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, and so on, but otherwise the normal condition would be as in Bradford, Leeds, and Sheffield. I think that was in the mind of a large number of the members of the Conference in assenting to this compromise. And there is a certain reason in principle for giving a dual vote if you look at it from the point of view of a separate community. The reason for giving a dual vote is this: If a man has a residence in a county and a business in a town, he has thereby a separate interest in two different communities, and, in virtue of these separate Interests, he should have a vote in both of these separate constituencies. If, however, he has both his place of business and his reside ace in the same town, then all his interests are in the same community, and on that account, on grounds of principle, he is not entitled to a double vote in that community. If you depart from the principle of proportional representation you ought to re-enact the provision of the Redistribution Act of 1885, which provides that where a town constituency is divided into divisions, that for the purpose of voting the constituency should be treated as a single constituency. I think it is only fair that if you reverse the decision on proportional representation which was come to by the Conference, then you should modify this decision with regard to the dual vote, so as to make it coincide with the existing law. It is possible that the decision on proportional representation may be revised. If it is revised, then I for one am willing to see the provision of the Bill stand as it is now. I think there is a possibility that there may be a revision. One of the most unfortunate things about proportional representation, I think, is that people always vote against it until they understand it.

I always listen with very great interest to speeches of hon. Members who were members of the Speaker's Conference, especially when they are giving their reasons for the decisions arrived at and also their recollections of the actual decisions come to, but whilst those speeches and those reasons are very interesting and instructive, I think still more interesting and still more instructive is the actual document to which they put their signatures at the end of the Conference. As this Amendment is aimed at one of the compromises of the Speaker's Conference, I hope the Government will not agree to it unless they find there is practically a unanimous feeling in the Committee that they ought to do so. I believe I am not one of those who very much admire in many respects the compromise that was arrived at in the Speaker's Conference, but, as it was a compromise, I consider the Government should accept it, and accept it totally.

I desire to support the Amendment which has been moved by my hon. Friend, and I hope the Home Secretary will not steel his heart against it. There is not the slightest doubt that the Bill, as it now stands, with proportional representation struck out, will very largely increase the number of plural voters. There was no desire to do that on the part of the Speaker's Conference, and it is quite possible that many who voted against proportional representation, had they been aware that this would be one of the effects of it, their voting would have been different. I think the hon. Gentleman opposite made a strong point when he urged the Government to re-enact that part of the Redistribution Act of 1885, which would prevent this multiplication, this tremendously large multiplication, of plural voters in borough constituencies of the country. I ask the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to further consider the matter and, if possible, agree to accept the Amendment.

The Home Secretary has already explained that it would be quite impossible for him to accept this Amendment because it would very seriously cut down the meaning and extent of Clause 7. I suggest to the Committee that while it is quite impossible to accept this Amendment for the reasons given by the Home Secretary, this is a question which could be raised when we discuss Clause 7 on Report. My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment will see that he hardly gave the Committee adequate notice of the real and substantial amount of matter in this Amendment. We are going through Amendments at a very rapid rate, and most of them deal with matters of form and drafting, and I think my hon. Friend and those who support him will agree that a matter of this kind ought really to be brought to the notice of a very full House, and we ought to discuss it over again on Clause 7. I am not going to enter into the discussion that has arisen in regard to the interpretation of the Speaker's Conference and its decision, but I think the word "revolution" is a very strong word to apply to what has been done, and if you apply that word you will have to spell it with a very little "r." Those who most favoured the plan, now that proportional representation has not been accepted, nearly all agree that they would not have had any objection to this extension of dual voting had proportional representation been applied. Therefore there is really no principle in it, but it is an extension of this right, and not so much a matter of principle. I have already pointed out that the Home Secretary could not be expected to accept this Amendment in this part of the Bill, but at the same time the Government think that this is a matter which ought to be very fully discussed and reviewed when we discuss Clause 7 on Report in the light of the fact that up to the present proportional representation has not been accepted by the House. I hope my hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment on the understanding that a full opportunity will be afforded to raise the question on Clause 7.

I quite agree with the suggestion which the right hon. Gentleman has just made. It seems to me that this is not a favourable opportunity to deal with this question, and it should be dealt with on the Report stage. I hope before we reach that point the Home Secretary and the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hayes Fisher) will consider what action they are going to take on this matter. The House is in a very great difficulty because the compromise of the Conference has been abolished, and if this Bill stands as it is a very serious extension will be made in regard to plural voting. I think the hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) is under a misapprehension as to what happened at the Speaker's Conference, and I think all the members of that Conference will agree that the very fact that plural voters were not to be allowed to exist only in a very few of the great cities had a very important effect upon those of us who object to plural voting, but who were willing to give a limited dual vote. There are, of course, a very considerable number of boroughs which would have been single constituencies returning three, four, or five members, and there no one ever thought that we should have dual voting allowed for the first time. Up to the present it has been recognised that anyone having a qualification, or several qualifications, in the same constituency should only be entitled to vote in respect of one of them. That position exists under the present law, and I do not think the Conference meant to abandon that position. Where there are very great cities like London, Liverpool or Manchester, where even when you had proportional representation you would have to divide them up into smaller divisions, then the question was not so very serious in regard to plural voting, and therefore there was not so much objection from our point of view; but to permit the dual vote to be started in the boroughs with single constituencies I do not think was in the mind of the Conference at all. I hope the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will give careful consideration before we get to the right point at which it will be raised on Report stage, and see whether he cannot come to some arrangement which will carry out what was undoubtedly the view of a great number of the members of the Conference.

I think the right hon. Gentleman was quite right in suggesting that the best place to consider this question will be when we come to Clause 7 on Report stage. I agree with him that the Schedule is no place for a discussion of this kind. I think the right hon. Gentleman's arguments were rather contradictory. First he argued that this question should not be considered and accepted in an empty House, and then he proceeded to argue that this is quite a trivial matter.

I did not say it was trivial, but I said I did not think it should be described as a revolution, and that although it did not involve any very great matter of principle, it involved a very large extension of the plural vote.

I do not say that this is a revolution, but it is no small matter. No member of the Committee up to the present has given any indication as to what the extent of this proposal is. I have had occasion to make a calculation for another purpose as to the effect of this proposal, and I find that this Amendment affects 127 constituencies in the United Kingdom, for that is the number of cities with divided boroughs. Therefore it is idle to say that the Speaker's Conference, in agreeing to the dual vote, ever intended that it should apply to 127 constituencies. As the Bill was introduced, and as the Speaker's Conference recommended it, only some fifteen constituencies were affected, and as the Bill was originally framed this question could not arise in any constituency except one which had more than five members. I may be allowed to say that Mr. Speaker himself, when this subject was raised, said that it was a small matter; that he had counted the constituencies, and it only affected fifteen of them.

Let me further call the attention of the Committee to an aspect of the matter which I do not think has been sufficiently emphasised. This is a Bill for abolishing plural voting. If anybody asks what is the main purpose of this Bill no doubt the answer will be that it is a measure to abolish plural voting. The Conference came to a compromise and those who held the doctrine of one man one vote, no doubt did come to a compromise and they said, "All right, let us have the business vote," but they never intended to make a double vote which did not exist before. What was done was that it was agreed not to entirely abolish the dual vote, but to tolerate it with a certain narrow qualification. It is quite a different thing to create for the first time in Parliamentary history a dual vote where it never existed before. That is the point which this Amendment so unfortunately raises for the first time. It was the belief of us all that when proportional representation was rejected this question was involved, and we certainly believed that it would come up for formal decision in some Debate for which the House would be prepared and certainly not in such a House as was here when this Amendment was moved. I was glad to hear the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Fulham. I hope that it may be taken as an indication that the Government have not closed their minds definitely on this question. Undoubtedly, those who agreed to the compromise never contemplated or calculated that it could possibly have the scope which it has received by the accident that proportional representation was rejected. If this point had had to be considered apart from proportional representation, there would have been a feeling so strong that I almost think the Speaker's Conference would have broken down upon it. There were quite hot discussions upon it. The case of Liverpool was particularly referred to, and, if it had not been for the knowledge of the Speaker and the use which he made of the fact that it was reduced to a mere question of fifteen seats, the matter would not have emerged from the Conference. It is most unfortunate that the point should have arisen in this haphazard way on an Amendment to the Schedule. It is a matter well worth the attention of the House, and if, unfortunately, proportional representation is not reinstated—that would be a very happy solution of the difficulty—I think many Members of the House will agree that it is a matter which requires very careful consideration.

Perhaps on this point I may be of some assistance to the Committee. The hon. and learned Member (Mr. M. Healy) has put a very sound point, namely, the difficulty of dealing with a matter of this kind on the Schedule. It arises in this way. The Committee made the Amendment to Clause 15, striking out proportional representation, of course, after it had passed Clause 7. Hence the difficulty of the Committee on the present occasion. I can see that it is in the minds of some hon. Members that the same thing may happen again on the Report stage, and the House may part with Clause 7 without knowing what is going to happen on Clause 15. I have been thinking the matter over as the discussion has proceeded, and I think it would be quite open for the hon. Member who has moved this Amendment (Mr. G. Thorne) to devise an Amendment to Clause 7 which would cover the case to whichever decision the House subsequently came on Clause 15. If that were taken on Clause 7 on the Report stage, it would enable the House to know exactly what it was doing in the one event or the other. If the hon. Member follows me, that is the only way that I can see of the House coming to a decision, the result of which it will quite clearly know.

I am very much obliged to you for indicating a way of dealing with this question. I have not the slightest desire for a snatch vote. I thought that the matter should be ventilated, and, after having properly ventilated it, we can consider it on its merits at the proper opportunity. If you could indicate more fully how that can be done we shall be very much obliged to you.

I hope that the hon. and learned Member who spoke last (Mr. M. Healy) rightly interpreted the mind of the President of the Local Government Board. I myself was inclined to understand his speech in the sense in which the hon. and learned Member understood it. He indicated that the Government had not a closed mind on the subject, but that they would be prepared to consider it with an open mind on the Report stage. The Government would not be inclined to press the matter unduly, because, although the right hon. Gentleman said that it was not a matter of principle, it is none the less a matter of the very greatest importance. It is not a matter of principle, for the simple reason that a compromise having been arrived at, the principle neither on the one side nor the other prevails. It is a question of degree, and degree is very important indeed. I was especially grateful to the hon. and learned Member for his very informing speech, in which he gave us a number of figures which I do not think were present to the minds of most of us, and certainly not to myself. His figures amounted to this, that the alteration would mean eight times more plural voting than if the decision of the Conference had been carried out. Let us take only one case, the case of Glasgow. If proportional representation had been carried out you would, I presume, have had Glasgow divided into three parts. It is now divided into fifteen parts, so that there is five times more opportunity for plural voting than there would have been. The case of London is much stronger. You will have many times more opportunities of plural voting than you would have had if the original scheme of the Conference had been carried out. I have no doubt that the question of proportional representation will come up again. It is no use saying that this is not a question of principle. That is quite a misleading way of putting it. It is a very important question of principle. The hon. and learned Gentleman pointed out how important it was. He pointed out how the Amendment would increase plural voting in the country. I should like to have some assurance that the Government will approach this subject with an open mind, and will not try to drive the Bill into a position which would alter altogether the equipoise of the compromise arrived at by the Speaker's Conference and would raise a very contentious question. It would, in fact, destroy the compromise by departing from it in a very important matter to which many Members of the House really attach the very greatest importance, and which they regard as one of the most vital points in the agreement.

I hope that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. G. Thorne) will adopt your suggestion. The Committee are in a very unfortunate position at the present time. If the figures remain as they were supposed to remain after the Speaker's Conference the matter comparatively is a small one, but if they are to be modified in the manner in which it is proposed under the scheme of redistribution, then it may assume much larger proportions. We have not got to the point at which we have inserted in the Bill a scheme of redistribution, and until we have it it is an impossibility to ascertain how many constituencies this system will affect. It is quite true that under the present proposals the figures would be those which the hon. and learned Member gave, but until the Schedule has been determined it is quite impossible for the Committee to say what magnitude this matter assumes. Under these circumstances, and until we pass the Schedule relating to redistribution, we do not know what sort of inroad, if any, has been made upon the compromise. When we have passed the scheme of redistribution, and we have an opportunity of reconsidering Clauses 7 and 15, it will be plain how large the alteration is to be. My hon. Friend said that there was an intention to retain plural voting in some small degree because it was a system which was in vogue, and we were not desirous of eliminating it if importance was attached to it. In the Bill of 1884 there was a special Clause preserving all votes for the lifetime of those persons who had them. Mr. Gladstone specially secured the introduction of that Clause because he said he would never be a party to taking away the vote from persons who had become qualified to receive it. Although it might serve one party or another, he would have no lot or part in taking away a vote which then prevailed. There are a great many considerations that apply to this subject. I hope that my hon. Friend will adjourn it, because it is certainly unfortunate that we should discuss it on the names of Sections which are placed before us in this particular Schedule.

I do not think that I expressed any opinion as to the merits of this controversy, but I indicated that the Government would see that the House had a full opportunity, after full notice that the subject was actually down for Debate, of reviewing the whole of Clause 7 in the light of the fact that proportional representation had not been adopted. I contend that this Amendment was so drawn that it veiled its real object. Nobody reading it could possibly have had the slightest indication of the great importance of the matter going to be raised. I do not think that my right hon. Friend said anything as to the merits of the case. He said that on an Amendment in the Schedule you ought not seriously to cut down the effects of a Clause to which the House had agreed. We shall approach the question with a sincere desire to have it reviewed in the light of the arguments which have been used to-day, and which no doubt will be repeated with greater emphasis and on a greater scale on another day. We shall see that the House has a full opportunity of discussing this very important question, but I for my part have not indicated in the slightest degree what is the view of the Government as to which way it should be decided.

7.0 P.M.

With regard to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman, there are two points I should like to put. The question of this particular Sub-section is not really raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhamption, but by the Schedule itself, which proposes, by striking it out, to alter the existing law. The proposal of my hon. Friend is to let the existing law remain as it is. As you, Mr. Whitley, have pointed out, the difficulty has arisen through Clause 7 having been settled before Clause 15, dealing with proportional representation, was settled. The question I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman—who has dealt with this matter with the greatest fairness—is if he can say whether on Report the Government would be prepared to accept a proposal to postpone Clause 7 until Clause 15 has been dealt with, or to postpone clause 7 in such a way that we might know what was settled with regard to proportional representation on Clause 15 first? If the Government can indicate they are willing to do that, it will help us out of this difficulty.

There can be no question of postponing Clauses in the House on the Report stage of a Bill. Therefore, that scheme is not practicable. In the last few moment I have further examined, with the assistance of the draftsman, the suggestion I made a little earlier. I find it would be possible to bring up an Amendment to Clause 7 which would make clear provision as to what would happen in case Clause 15 stands as it does now, and also in the other case of Clause 15 being amended by the re-introduction of proportional representation. That, I think, meets exactly the case the Committee desires to meet, and if that is decided upon, I shall be happy to give assistance to the hon. Member, if he desires it, in doing something in that form.

I am very much obliged to you, Sir, for your assistance, and also to the right hon. Gentleman for the spirit he has shown in his last remarks. This is an important matter which ought to be discussed on its merits with full notice. I move the Amendment in the only form that appeared to be possible under the present conditions. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman recognises that. Now that we have been assured of an opportunity of ventilating the question, and you have intimated a way in which we can discuss it fully on its merits, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, after the paragraph beginning "48 and 49 Vict., c. 23," to insert the words "48 and 49 Vict., c. 46; the Medical Relief Disqualification Removal Act, 1885; the whole Act so far as unrepealed."

This Act does not apply to the Bill in its. present form.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In paragraph beginning "48 and 49 Vict., c. 62," after the word "unrepealed," insert the words "except so far as it applies to elections other than Parliamentary elections."

After paragraph beginning "49 and 50 Vict., c. 43," insert the words "49 and 50 Vict., c. 57; the Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Act (1875) Amendment Act, 1886; the whole Act, so far as unrepealed, except so far as it applies to elections other than Parliamentary elections."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher .]

I beg to move to leave out the paragraph beginning "50 and 51 Vict., sess. 2, c. 9."

At the present moment a policeman on duty at some polling station other than that at which he is entitled to vote is entitled to go into that polling station where he is employed and vote there. I am sure there must be some mistake in repealing that. There is no question here of the absent voters' list, because no policeman can know whether he is to be sent to another part of the district during an election or not. I am afraid that this right will be taken away from him unless the Amendment is accepted.

We see no reason why this Act should not remain, or why the police should not get the benefit of the law as it stands now. We therefore accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in paragraph beginning "51 and 52 Vict. c. 10" to leave out the words "except the short title in Section one and Section twelve."

It is purely a drafting Amendment, indeed these are all drafting Amendments.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In paragraph beginning "51 and 52 Vict. c. 41," before the word "sections," insert the words "Paragraph (xii.), of Section three, from 'the place of' to the end of the paragraph; Sub-section (6), of Section thirty-four, from 'the places of' to the end of the Sub-section. Proviso twelve, in Section seventy-five, and."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher .]

I beg to move, in the same paragraph, after the word "seventy-seven" to insert the words "In paragraph (6), of Section eighty-three, the words 'registration of Parliamentary voters or to the'; the words 'or to any registration matters,' and the word 'registration' where it lastly occurs; in Subsection (2), of Section ninety-two, the word 'occupation' and the words 'of making out and revising the lists of voters, of conducting any Parliamentary election'; Sub-section (3), of Section ninety-two."—[ Mr. Hayes Fisher .]

I desire to call attention to the great inconvenience of this method of dealing with portions of a Statute. It seems most unfortunate that we could not, by some better method of draftsmanship, be able to get rid of a whole Section and re-enact it or deal with it in some other way. For the purpose of keeping track of a small repeal or alteration of this nature, it means that in every law book and every index you have to bring in this matter and call the attention of the unwary to what has been done in this voluminous Schedule. I am sure I am right in saying that not only many laymen but also many lawyers will find a paragraph of this sort a difficulty and a trap. It might be avoided by clearing away a whole Section and putting forward the new section in the new or modified form in some place in the Statute. I am quite sure the right hon. Gentleman would be very glad to make things as plain as possible, and I would therefore appeal to him to reconsider the question. If he takes these words to-night I would ask him whether it would be possible, when we have altered intricate paragraphs, to bring up words on Report written out at large in the way that he wants them to read rather than to leave the Schedule in the etremely difficult and puzzling form it now takes. It is a perfect maze of words. It is a matter in which the draftsman could help us very much indeed and also help those whose duty it is to study these intricate Acts.

I can only assure my hon. and learned Friend that the drafting of these Amendments has been considered most carefully by the Government draftsmen and by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. These Amendments have been on the Paper a long time. The fact of the matter is that we have tried to keep the Bill itself as short as possible, to make it as readable a Bill as it could possibly be made, and not to stuff it with all kinds of references to other Acts. To make clear the Bill itself makes it necessary for us to make the references in the Schedule very voluminous indeed. We are all anxious, so far as we can, to clarify the Bill and make it as free as possible from those unfortunate references that have to be made to other Acts, but anybody reading it will see what an enormous number of Acts are touched upon by the Bill, what number has to be referred to, and what number has to be repealed or partly repealed. I am afraid I cannot hold out any hope, although we will give my hon. and learned Friend's suggestion consideration, that we shall be able to give expression to his views.

No one wants to quarrel with the draftsman of this Bill, who was most properly complimented when it was introduced. I agree that the Bill is a piece of draftsmanship very greatly to his credit. It has made the matter so lucid on the whole that it has greatly facilitated the task of all of us. But that is not the conclusion of the matter. It is easy to make a matter distinct in Debate, but there are things which will be obscure if the Bill passes as it is. Mr. Speaker's Conference recommended that when this Bill was passed the Government should undertake to codify the whole of the law appertaining to all these matters. Anyone who takes this Schedule and reads it will see, without further argument, how important was that recommendation and how necessary it is that it should be carried out. As the law will stand when this Bill passes the Parliamentary franchise will be so simple that any man will be able to understand it if he has any mind of a rational form. But if we stop with the passing of this measure, to understand it will not be so simple, because it refers to several volumes of other Statutes, and you will never be able to say in regard to them what provisions are in force and what are not. If I had the energy I once possessed I would have moved to repeal not merely the part of every Act mentioned in the Schedule, but the whole of every Act mentioned, and I would put into this Bill, in the shape of separate Clauses, the enactments we have left on the Statute Book. That is the proper way to deal with the matter. Without that this Parliamenary franchise will still be a matter for experts when it should be understanded of the people. This is a Parliamentary epoch of a very exceptional kind, and perhaps the Government has other matters to attend to, but still I hope, as the Government has undertaken to give effect to the Speaker's Conference, it will not ignore that one matter to which certainly I attach considerable importance and which I think most Members will consider not the least of the recommendations which that Conference made.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, after paragraph beginning "61 and 62 Vict., c. 37," to insert the words, "62 and 63 Vict., c. 14: The London Government Act, 1899; Sub-section (4) of Section three; Sub-section (l) of Section four from ' and shall be' to 'electors'; and Sub-section (2) of Section twenty-seven."

It is consequential on the provision of the Bill which makes the registration officer the authority.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move to leave out paragraph beginning, "8 Edw. 7, c. 35."

This relates to the framing of rules in Ireland. The Chief Secretary has promised that before the Report stage he will introduce an Amendment which, I hope, will give effect to the suggestion I brought forward on the Irish Clause. Until that is done, I would ask him not to repeal the provisions of the Act passed by the hon. Member (Mr. Coote) and the hon. Member (Mr. MacVeagh). Let us not throw away the dirty water until we have the clean. If we are satisfied with the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment this repeal can be made on Report.

There is really nothing of substance in this matter. The whole question is whether we shall clear the road as we go along and settle the question, about which we are substantially agreed, when it comes up, or whether we shall leave the obstacle in the road as some kind of security that the Chief Secretary was acting in good faith when he made his promise. The hon. and learned Gentleman may take his choice.

Strike it out.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made, after paragraph beginning "8 Edw. 7, c. 35," insert the words "8 Edw. 7, c. 48: The Post Office Act, 1908; Section eighty."—[ Sir G. Cave .]

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

POSTPONED CLAUSE 18.—(Voting by Absent Voters.)

(1) For the purpose of giving persons whose names are entered on the absent voters' list an opportunity of voting at a Parliamentary election, the returning officer shall, where an election is contested, as soon as practicable after the adjournment of the election, send a ballot paper to each such person at the address entered against his name on the absent voters' list in the register together with a declaration of identity in the prescribed form.

(2) The ballot paper marked by the absent voter and accompanied by the declaration of identity duly signed and authenticated shall, if it is received by the returning officer before the close of the poll, be counted by him and treated for all purposes in the same manner as a ballot paper placed in the ballot box in the ordinary manner.

(3) A person whose name is entered on the absent voters' list shall not be entitled to vote except as an absent voter in pursuance of this Section.

(4) His Majesty may by Order in Council prescribe the forms to be used for the purposes of this Section, and make Regulations as to the mode in which ballot papers are to be sent to the voter and as to the authentication of any marked ballot papers, and generally for the purposes of carrying this Section into effect and for preserving the secrecy of voting in pursuance thereof.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "as soon as practicable," and to insert instead thereof the words "within forty-eight hours."

This is merely a question whether we shall leave out vague words and put in a fixed limit.

I think it better not to put a specific limit of time as accidents might happen which would cause the time to be exceeded. On the other hand, if you say forty-eight hours the officer might think it his duty to take the whole time allowed. As a matter of fact, it is nearly always less than forty-eight hours. We think it better to leave it as in the Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in the same Sub-section, after the word "paper" ["send a ballot paper to each such person"], to insert the words "by registered post."

We shall have, of course, a very large number of these ballot papers in special envelopes. The Post Office authorities will recognise the form and know exactly what they are, and will take special care in their delivery. That being so, it seems quite unnecessary to go through the form of paying a registration fee.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "close of the poll," and to insert instead thereof the words "time at which the votes are to be counted."

I do not know whether it is necessary to discuss that at this point, if we are going to discuss at all, the general principle of whether the counting is to be postponed for the sake of the absent voters. If so, I am prepared to speak on it now or, if it is more convenient, I will say what I have to say on the Home Secretary's Clause later.

I think it would be better to keep to the Government main Amendment and have a fairly broad discussion on that, covering the present and other points. This seems a very small point on which to enter on a discussion of the whole question.

I do not want to discuss the larger question, but I do not understand why it is proposed that the votes of absent voters should be received after the close of the poll. There is no reason to think that the absent voter is specially pressed for time, and would not be able to send his ballot paper in before the close of the poll. I have not in my mind the exact proceeding to be adopted, whether the returning officer puts the absent voter's vote in the ballot box or not. If he has to put them in he can proceed with the counting, because, I take it, the ballot box will be sealed up as usual at the close of the poll. I am very conservative in this matter. I am so accustomed to the present procedure that I should like to have the absent voters' votes put in the ballot box. If they are put in the ballot box they must be received before the close of the poll; hence the ballot box may be sealed up as required by law. The time of counting the votes is an indefinite period. The close of the poll is a perfectly definite period fixed by law.

Is it not already provided in Clause 3 that this is to be dealt with by Order in Council?

I should like to know if the right hon. Baronet's point of Order is to the Amendment or to my speech? If it is a good point of Order it must be a point of Order to the Amendment.

I cannot see anything out of order. Clause 18 makes special provision. It is not necessarily governed by what is decided on other Clauses.

The hon. and learned Gentleman is now dealing with the absent voters' votes, which can be dealt with by Order in Council. I think that is in Clause 3. Therefore, it is out of order to bring it up now.

If it is to be dealt with by Order in Council the Amendment is necessary. If it is necessary, obviously it can be discussed. I think Parliament ought to be very jealous about having matters of this kind relegated to Orders in Council. When it was passing the Ballot Act it did not have Orders in Council. It dealt with the matters in the Act with the greatest minuteness, and quite properly. This is a matter which goes to the life of Parliament itself. There is no matter in connection with which abuses are so certain to arise as Parliamentary elections, and it behoves us now, as Parliament has always done in the past, to be most careful how we deal with them. At the present time we know the hour up to which votes can be received. The close of the poll is eight o'clock at night on the day of the poll, but it is extended in some constituencies to an hour. Beyond that limit there is no period of grace, and if you are to give the sheriff the right to say when the votes shall be counted, he may fix a day after the poll. I think the time at which the votes can be received should be fixed by law, so that no one can change or vary it. Why should there be one period within which absent votes can be received in one constituency, and another period in another constituency, according as the sheriff decides? I think that is very objectionable, and I think the Home Secretary should stick to his Bill and not vary it, as proposed by this Amendment.

I think the point which has been raised is a valuable point. The Government have thought it. advisable to try to fit the proposals for the ordinary absent voter into the scheme for allowing the soldiers and sailors to vote during this War. It is perfectly clear that if you are going to give an opportunity for soldiers to vote by post, you must allow them to send in their ballot papers after the poll day. That is perfectly clear, and that is the reason why the draftsman probably has, quite rightly, upon the system adopted by the Government, altered the scheme in the Bill to the day of the counting of the votes. For the purpose of enabling soldiers to vote it is proposed to postpone the counting of the votes until eight days after the poll. I do not think that, apart from the soldiers, it is advisable to give the absent voter any further time than the polling day.

We are allowing the ballot paper to be sent three or four days before the poll, and I think all the necessities of the case will be met if the ordinary absent voter sends in his paper by the polling day. Of course, when you come to deal with the soldiers, you have to adopt quite a different system. Under the longer Amendment of the Home Secretary he is really curtailing the advantage given to soldiers, because he proposes that the soldiers must send in the voting papers by the time of the counting of the votes, which is to be eight days after the poll, and they must also have recorded their vote not later than the day of the polls. That provision is of no use whatever. They might just as well be allowed to record their vote later on. The way to give the soldier the effective right of voting is to allow him sufficient time, and I think the soldiers ought to have at least a fortnight in which to send in their polling papers, and let them be counted with the rest. I submit that if you deal with the ordinary absent voter first and you settle that he must send in his paper by the polling day, and then extend the provision so as to allow soldiers and sailors, under the special circumstances of this War, to vote at any time, providing that their votes arrive before the day of the counting, which ought not to be more than fourteen days after the poll, you would meet the case. Unless something like that is done we shall find that the impossibility of carrying out these proposals will result in an enormous amount of dissatisfaction among our soldiers and sailors. They will find that their letters will arrive too late for them to record their vote, and even if they do arrive in time for them to vote the difficulties of the situation may prevent the Post Office returning the votes in time. We should be achieving something satisfactory if we gave them fourteen days to do this business in during the special circumstances of the War. I think it would be much better if the ordinary absent voter was subject to the same restrictions as other people.

Are we allowed to discuss this Amendment and the subsequent Amendment in the name of the Home Secretary?

I see now that there is a connection between the Amendments which I did not observe before, and I think it will tend to efficiency if we now have the discussion on the whole matter.

It may be necessary to extend the period for the counting of the votes to eight days after the poll in respect of soldiers' votes during the War—personally, I. do not think it is—but it should be confined to the soldiers and confined to this War. I cannot conceive that it may be advisable to allow the ordinary absent voter for an indefinite length of time, or until this Bill is repealed, to return his vote eight days after the poll. I see that the Home Secretary has a proviso, that the returning officer shall not count any ballot paper marked by an absent voter if he is satisfied that the paper has been marked on a day subsequent to the day of polling. How is the returning officer to ascertain that? How can he tell whether it has been marked on a day subsequent to the poll? I hope that the Home Secretary will follow the advice of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dickinson), whose views on this matter are absolutely right, and that he will separate the ordinary absent voter, to whom this Bill will apply so long as it remains law, from the soldier, who is being dealt with in an exceptional way for the period of this War.

I feel the greatest possible doubt as to whether the counting ought to be postponed at all. I would like to point the extreme inconvenience to the country as a whole of having a period of eight days between the close of the poll and the time when it is known who has been elected. You may have a General Election where it would be of the greatest possible importance to know what Government has been returned to rule over this country, and to decide the fate of the War, but under this provision you will have to wait in large numbers of constituencies perhaps eight days until you arrive at that decision.

Are we taking the three Amendments or are we taking the Amendments referring to the time that the absent voters' cards shall come in? I thought we were not now taking the long Amendment.

There is a separate point. The Amendment now moved and the next Amendment which stands in the name of the Home Secretary raise a separate point, and I would suggest for the convenience of the Committee that it would be better if we settled that question first before we come to the long Amendment.

You cannot have more than one question before the Committee at the same time. The question now before the Committee is the Home Secretary's first Amendment, but the Chairman has allowed us to discuss at the same time the Home Secretary's long Amendment. That does not mean that the long Amendment is now before the Committee.

I think it would be very much for the convenience of the Committee to allow us to discuss the main principles of the long Amendment at the same time that we discuss this Amendment, because some of us think that the Amendment now before the Committee is part of the long Amendment.

That is just the point. Under the Clause as it is proposed to be amended there will be two distinct provisions—one temporary and the other permanent. One of those provisions deals only with the continuance of the present War. It is in that way that the present Amendment is relevant to the long Amendment. The point is whether the provision for counting the votes received after the ordinary close of the poll should apply only to the temporary case or to the continuing case; therefore, I think it is necessary in arriving at a decision as to the merits of the present Amendment to decide the particular point whether it should be dealt with here or carried over to the temporary provision later on.

My observations were made under the supposition that we were discussing the permanent provision, and not the one referring to the circumstances arising during the War, on which I have nothing to say.

It would be awkward and dangerous to the country if we had to wait eight days after a General Election before we could tell what the result was. We have already provided in the Bill a period of nine days between what is commonly called the nomination day and the day of actual polling. Those nine days will surely allow the votes from the absent voters to come in from a considerable distance. I suggest that it is more to the interests of the country as a whole that those absent voters who cannot return their votes within that time should rely upon the further provision for proxy voting. As part of the general law of the country, I do not feel the slightest doubt upon the matter. While we are very anxious to give our soldiers and sailors the opportunity of voting, we must not forget that the interests of the country may demand, and very urgently demand, a rapid decision. Therefore, I think that as those soldiers and sailors who are near enough to this country to return their votes within the nine days have the opportunity of so doing, it will be all right for them, and as for those who are further off, I think that in the interests of the country they ought to be content, and would be content, to rely upon the provision for proxy voting. For that reason I think it is a great mistake to alter the words in the Bill, and thereby assert the principle of postponing the counting of the votes beyond what is now the law—namely, the earliest time practicable after the closing of the poll.

I very much regret to find myself in disagreement with my hon. Friend (Mr. A. Williams) who has just spoken and with whom on this Bill I am glad hitherto to know we have been somewhat of the same mind. It is true that to postpone the counting of the votes throughout the country will cause inconvenience, candidates on both sides will be kept in a state of most disagreeable suspense, and the country as a whole will not know the result for a long time. But what are the alternatives? Either to prevent the soldiers having votes, to which none of us would agree, or else to require them to vote by proxy which, in the opinion of some of us, is an extremely bad form of voting. Of the three alternatives many of my hon. Friends greatly prefer the minor inconvenience of postponing for a few days the counting of the votes. In any case the result will be known within a period not very much longer than arises under our present system of extended election so that the inconvenience will be very little greater so far as the country as a whole is concerned, although the individual member or candidate will be kept in agony of mind. I agree that the extension of time—should there be one, and I think there should—ought to be kept to a minimum. I cannot agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) that it should be as long as a fortnight. Remember that the ballot papers will be sent out to the soldiers during the period between the nomination and the day of polling. There will be many days for their return and it may be hoped that the soldiers will receive them before the day of poll and it is to be hoped they will all receive them in sufficient time to enable them to be returned. I should think that the period of eight days would be sufficient for that purpose. I hope the Home Secretary will not press his next Amendment that the vote is not to be counted if the returning officer is satisfied that the paper has been marked on a day subsequent to the day of voting. That would cause very great inconvenience and sometimes disputes, and I do not see any necessity for it. What does it matter whether, with regard to a soldier voting out in France, he has marked his ballot paper the day after the polling day, so long as the votes are all counted on the same day. I think that is altogether outside the question. Coming back to the point strictly before the Committee, I am disposed to think that this is not the right place in the Bill in which to insert this proviso to allow the votes to be counted after the day of polling. I see no reason to make that part of the general law of the land. It was never suggested by the Speaker's Conference, or by anyone, with regard to the ordinary absent voter in an ordinary election in peace times, that the votes cast by a man should be counted, even though they have arrived the day after the poll had taken place. I do not see the necessity for it. The effect would be that all votes will be valid or not accordingly as any particular returning officer decided to take the count on the same night as the poll or on the morning or afternoon of the following day, or even a few days later. The provision, of course, is necessary so far as soldiers are concerned. Further, I would suggest that paragraph 3 of the right hon. Gentleman's long Amendment, beginning with the words "for the purpose of allowing more time," ought to be limited to the War period, like the following paragraph. That also is a provision for which there is no special necessity in peace time. Exceptional arrangements ought not to be a normal part of our electoral law. The proposal is made specifically in view of the present War and ought not to apply to peace times. If, unhappily, a time should ever come when a General Election was taken while another war was taking place, there would have to be a great deal of special legislation, and this provision might be applied to any such state of circumstances ad hoc, but I do not think we ought to give power to the Government, by Order in Council, at any General Election to extend the period of counting the votes for eight days after the poll.

I infinitely prefer the former Amendment of the Home Secretary to the one now on the Paper. It was a very much better Amendment, and with a slight alteration it could have been made quite workable—it would have given the absent voter the right to appoint a proxy, and there would have then been no necessity to extend the time for the counting of the votes, as is proposed in the present Amendment. It should be made to include merchant seamen. This places an obligation on the soldier and sailor which I do not think they will be able to dis- charge. It limits his possibilities by Order in Council. Some particular districts may, indeed, not be within the postal limit of eight days, and that is a limitation which in itself is absurd. Then why should he be troubled to satisfy the registration officer on certain points? You do not, indeed, give him time to do it. Take the case of a man who is ordered abroad. He does not know where he is going to; his orders may be to go to Southampton and proceed on board a transport, but he does not know where he is going. It may be to France, but when he gets there he may be moved further afield; therefore you are placing upon him an obligation which he cannot possibly discharge. But if he has. appointed a proxy you have then a fixed arrangement and he will not be damnified in any way. I want to secure this privilege for the soldier and sailor, and, indeed, this Bill would never have been heard of but for the fact that it grants this privilege, which is one that ought, in my opinion, to be extended to merchant seamen. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke just now referred to the views of the public outside. I venture to suggest the public are paying but slight attention to our proceedings, and, judging from the appearance of the House itself, hon. Members generally are not much concerned about this Bill; therefore it is no use talking about that. What we want to do is to see that undue limits are not introduced which will prevent the soldier, sailor and merchant seamen exercising his right to vote, and it ought to be secured in the simplest possible form. In my opinion the present Amendment does not secure it, and, as I have said, I very much prefer the old one.

8.0 P.M.

I say at once I feel the weight of the arguments which have been advanced against this Amendment becoming the permanent law of the land. The Amendment was framed for two purposes, one of which was to allow the ordinary absent voter to sign his vote on the polling day and post it on the same day, so that it may arrive the next morning when the returning officer is counting the votes. The second object was one looking forward to my next Amendment. I am quite willing to withdraw this Amendment and when we come to Sub-section (3), to insert a provision that the vote of an absent voter received on or before the day of counting shall be counted with the votes, but I would prefer to leave the exact form of that Amendment until I have had an opportunity of laying it on the Table. I quite agree that Sub-section (3) should only be enforced during the continuance of the War, and I propose when the time comes to accept an Amendment to that effect. If we can get rid of the present Amendment we can then take the longer Amendment standing in my name.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, after Sub-section (2), to insert the following new Sub-sections:

"(3) For the purpose of allowing more time for the receipt of ballot papers from persons whose names are entered on the absent voters' list, His Majesty may by Order in Council direct that the counting of votes at any elections to which the Order applies shall, instead of taking place as soon as practicable after the close of the poll, take place at such time (not exceeding eight days after the close of the poll) as may be fixed by the Order, and returning officers shall comply with any such direction;

(4) During the continuance of the present War and a period of twelve months thereafter, the following special provisions shall apply for the purpose of enabling persons whose names are entered on the absent voters' list to appoint voting proxies in certain cases:

not approve. I fully appreciate the objections to voting by proxy. We all know them and see them. On the other hand, there are still greater objections to depriving men of their vote, for in every case possible a man should have the vote. I say nothing for the moment of the details of these proposals, but I suggest to the Committee that the best plan is to accept this proposal in principle.

On a point of Order. If the Home Secretary's Amendment is taken, which only apparently gives votes to merchant seamen for the period of the War and twelve months after, would it rule out the possibility of discussing the Amendment standing in my name and those of other hon. Members later on the Paper? The merchant seaman is in rather a difficult position. He may be disbanded when the War is over, and what we do not wish is that any seaman should be disfranchised owing to his calling.

I think that question can be discussed on the Home Secretary's Amendment, and if the hon. Gentleman is not satisfied, then I think it could be brought up separately.

If the Home Secretary's Amendment is accepted the merchant seaman only gets his vote for one year after the War is over.

May I point out that I have an Amendment on the Paper on purpose to raise this question, namely, in the proposed new Sub-section (4), to omit the words "during the continuance of the present War, and a period of twelve months thereafter"?

I do not think that arises as a point of Order. I think we had better deal with the Amendment as it stands, and with the Amendments to it. Then we can see whether anything further is required.

May I ask, Mr. Whitley, how you propose to put the Question in view of the fact that an hon. Friend of mine has an Amendment prior to these words?

I propose to put the Question, "That the words of the Home Secretary be there inserted." Then I shall take next in order, as on the Paper, the Amendments to those proposed words. The first will be that of the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division (Mr. D. White)—at the beginning of the proposed new Subsection (3) to insert the words "During the continuance of the present War, and a period of twelve months thereafter." I will now put the Question, "After Subsection (2) insert the new Sub-sections (3) and (4), as proposed by the Home Secretary." Now is the time for any general discussion on the words. Then we can deal with the Amendments, and there will still remain the Question, "That the words, as amended, be there inserted." I think that will give the Committee ample scope to explore the whole question.

Am I not entitled to move my Amendment to the Home Secretary's Amendment before the general discussion on the Amendment of the Home Secretary?

Would it not be more convenient if we took the smaller Amendments first, then took the Question, "That my Amendment, as amended, be there inserted," and had a general discussion on that? I might placate a good deal of opposition in that way.

That might be the best course, and I will call on the hon. Member for the Tradeston Division (Mr. D. White) to move his Amendment.

On behalf of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Tradeston, I beg to move, at the beginning of the proposed new Sub-section (3), to insert the words "During the continuance of the present war, and a period of twelve months thereafter."

I regret the exceedingly brief manner in which this Amendment has been moved by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. H. Samuel) and accepted by the Home Secretary. I do not think the Committee has the least idea what the Amendment is. As the Amendments taken together were originally on the Paper there was a complete scheme which was to operate always, except in regard to the proxy vote, and was to operate for the Navy, and for the Army, and for the mercantile marine. Part of that scheme was postponing the date of the counting so as to enable a very much larger number of the personal votes by post to count in the election, and a much smaller number by proxy vote. The seamen of the merchant service have been asking for an effective vote for twenty or twenty-five years past. The effect of what the Home Secretary has just done is to say that for the purpose of allowing more time to persons whose names are entered on the absent voters' list His Majesty's Government may, by Order in Council, direct that the counting of the votes, instead of taking place as soon as practicable after the close of the poll, shall take place at such a period, not exceeding eight days after the close of the poll, as may be fixed by the Order. He is going to enact that, and to allow merchant seamen to avail themselves of it. He is now going to give them an opportunity of voting for one election by this method, and then we are afterwards to disfranchise them for all time. That is what is not worth two minutes' explanation either on the part of the Mover or of the Home Secretary, who seconded the Amendment. I regret the withdrawal of the first two Amendments of the Home Secretary. Except in one small particular, we had a complete scheme for enabling practically the whole of the soldiers and sailors and the men of the merchant service to vote in one of two ways. Now he is going apparently to whittle that down, and what the right hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) calls the ordinary absent voter—who is almost spoken of as if he were in a separate category and hardly worthy of any serious consideration—is to be treated in one way, and the soldiers and sailors are to be given a special concession for a particular period and no longer—for the period of the War and twelve months thereafter. I think I have pointed out that so far as the merchant service is concerned the period of the War does not affect them at all. They have asked for twenty years to be given an effective vote; they have been under the impression that they were going to get it, and now without a word of explanation the Home Secretary says that a large part of this machinery to enable them effectively to vote is to be given to them probably for one election, and is then immediately to be taken away again. I do not think that is dealing fairly with the question at all.

Let us look at it from the point of view of the soldiers and sailors themselves. Our Army is scattered over the world at the present time, most of it not very far from these shores. Is that condition of affairs going to stop entirely after the War? Will there be no garrison required in India? We welcome the troops from every part of the Empire who are now in the different seats of war, and I think there is likely to be much more interchange of defence, naval and military, between every part of the Empire after the War, and that the Army is likely to be more dispersed than it was before the War. Let us take India. If a man is serving in India at the present time he will have these full opportunities of voting given to him because we are in a state of war. But immediately the regiments that have been fighting in France go out to India after the War these facilities will be withdrawn. What is the reason? A man in the Navy is to be given these facilities during the War. Supposing he is on the China station or the South Pacific. He needs these facilities just as much in times of peace, and he ought to be able to vote for all time. In the Speaker's Conference our proposals for absent voters may have been incomplete, but we proposed that the scheme should not be for a single election, but applicable to soldiers and and sailors and the merchant service and other people who on account of their business, trade, or profession had to be away. The same scheme was applicable to all. The Home Secretary immensely improved it, and, with the exception of one Amendment of mine to omit certain words at the beginning of the fourth Sub-section of his Amendment, he would have had a complete and much better scheme than was proposed by the Speaker's Conference. Now we are to give a vote for probably a single election, and then to withdraw these facilities. I see that the Home Secretary shakes his head, but I should like him to explain how, if he puts these words in Sub-section (3), they will be of general application. It is of general application now, and he says he will accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Tradeston (Mr. D. White).

I will answer the hon. Gentleman at once. The Speaker's Conference only provided for the absent vote, and under their recommendation the ballot paper of the absent voter was to be returnable on or before the polling day. That is already done, and this Clause as I move it is something additional to what the Speaker's Conference represented. It gives the absent voters a special privilege for a limited time. We felt bound to limit this privilege to the present War, without prejudice to what may be done after the War. I think the merchant seaman's privileges ought to be made permanent. I have said so, and I think so; but hon. Members must remember that in proposing this at all I am going far beyond what the House as a whole has agreed to. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Far beyond the Conference; and it is not fair to charge me with not carrying out the proposals of the Conference when I am giving something considerably beyond them which is new altogether, and which was never suggested by anyone, even by the hon. Member, until now.

I was really accusing the right hon. Gentleman of nothing. I said the Speaker's Conference proposals, although very incomplete, and nothing like as good as the right hon. Gentleman proposes now, was a proposal that was to be applicable in peace or war. The fact remains that the Home Secretary has proposed facilites that will enable a vastly greater proportion to vote, but that is to be given for a single election and afterwards withdrawn. I say that if that is the case, as I think the right hon. Gentleman clearly admits is the effect of his Amendment that we are now contemplating accepting, it cannot but cause very great dissatisfaction to all these men to have a special opportunity to vote on one single occasion by means of facilities which for no reason that I can understand—because I cannot understand that the mere fact that the War is over is a reason why people should not be allowed to vote; that cannot possibly apply to the merchant service at any rate—are then going to be withdrawn.

The hon. Member now admits that his former observations were absolutely erroneous. He said that the Home Secretary had cut down the recommendations of the Conference.

If the right hon. Gentleman understood me to say so, certainly I made no such statement.

I am within the recollection of the Committee. I think that every member of the Committee understood the hon. Member behind me to say that the Conference had made an admirable proposal, and that now the Home Secretary had cut it out. Precisely the opposite is the case. The recommendation of the Conference was this: Provision shall be made to enable any person who claims to be registered in a constituency to put his name on a list of absent voters and to record his vote as such, provided that he fulfils certain conditions; that a printed ballot shall be sent to every such voter at an address registered by him for the purpose, and that the ballot paper shall be returned by post on or before the polling day, accompanied by a statutory declaration of identity in prescribed form.

It is unnecessary to tell me that, as I was on the Sub-committee that arranged these details.

Then there is the less excuse for saying that the proposal of the Home Secretary falls short of the recommendations.

I certainly understood so. The proposals of the Conference are embodied fully in the Bill, and every absent voter, not only at this first election but at all future elections, will have precisely the rights that the Conference desired that he should have—namely, that the ballot paper shall be sent to him by post, that he shall have the whole period between the date of nomination and of voting in which to return the voting paper in order that his vote may be recorded, and that his vote shall be recorded exactly in the same way as that of any other elector. But beyond that, in view of the special circumstances of the present War, the Home Secretary has proposed to meet what we all know is a most difficult problem, a scheme of combined postal voting allowing a longer period than the period between the nomination and the polling—a period which may be longer by eight days—and in addition to that allowing proxy voting in the case of men who are not within reach of the postal vote. The proposal of the hon. Member for Devizes is that that should be done at every election for all time, that is to say, that at every General Election for all time, when the poll is closed and all the votes are there in the ballot box every constituency should be kept waiting for eight days, and the country as a whole should be kept waiting for eight days, in order that we may have the opportunity of getting the votes of the men in the merchant service. That is his proposal in the present Amendment. The present Amendment deals with the postal vote and not with the proxy vote.

The Amendment which is now before the Committee, moved on behalf of my hon. Friend behind me, is an Amendment to the first paragraph, which relates to the postal vote and the extension of eight days and not to the proxy vote. We are now discussing whether or not at all future elections, apart from this next election, the whole country should be kept waiting for eight days in order that the merchant service may have an opportunity of voting by post. How many additional men would that allow to vote? It will not affect the men in India, the men on the Pacific, the men on the South Seas. It will only affect that small body of men who are in such parts of the world that it will make all the difference to them whether they have eight more days in which to vote or not.

We will come later on to the proxy vote, which is quite a different problem. I submit to the Committee that this would be a most unwise thing to do. It would certainly very greatly offend public opinion at large if we enact that every subsequent election should be extended another eight days in order to enable this small body of men to cast a postal vote. As to the merits or demerits of the proxy vote, we will come to them afterwards, and I may have some observations with which to trouble the Committee, but on this narrow point I feel sure that the Amendment which I have moved is a suitable one to insert in the Bill.

Owing to the form in which this Amendment is moved, I admit that the number of seamen who would be affected by it is comparatively small. But I take it on broader grounds than that of numbers—on the justice of the case. If it is right and proper—and the right hon. Gentleman has not denied that it is—that certain seamen should be enfranchised during the continuance of the War and for twelve months afterwards. I can see no logical ground and no ground in justice why that should not be extended to them for all time. After all, no one has done finer service for the country than the merchant seamen during this War. They have gone out and faced dangers which none of us have faced, because they faced them unarmed. They face sudden death for weeks on end, and I appeal to the Committee not to pass this Amendment, because I think that they are the class of men whom we can rely upon to give a sound and proper vote at a Parliamentary election. It is quite true that this particular narrow Amendment does not affect a great number of people. Later on you will deal with another aspect of the case on a proposal which would enfranchise still more, but it would be a great injustice if we say to a number of men, be they a hundred or ten thousand, "You are worthy of exercising the vote during a great war, but directly that war is over, or twelve months after the War is over, you shall be disfranchised owing to the occupation which you undertake which is so vital to the interests of this country." The right hon. Gentleman said that the whole of the elections will go on for another eight days, but all it means is that the elections would take place and that the announcement of the poll would be made eight days afterwards. This country has got on extremely well with elections, lasting perhaps three weeks, and I cannot see any great objection if the declaration of the poll were delayed for eight days. I feel so strongly on this matter, that if anybody else will go into the Lobby with me I shall certainly vote against this Amendment, which I think extremely unjust to a very deserving class.

I do not propose to repeat the general argument which I used when we were discussing the general question half an hour ago, but I desire to remove a misunderstanding which has been created. The effect of this Amendment as put down on the Paper, would be to apply the provisions for postponing the count by eight days to elections both in time of peace and in time of war. The effect, if we adopted the Amendment now before us, will be that it shall not apply in time of peace but shall apply during the present War and for a period of twelve months thereafter. It seems to me that that is just the time of great danger that would be covered by this proposal. That is a misunderstanding which I wish to remove. I did not intend to make it my chief argument, or to inconvenience the civil population or candidates, or anything of that sort. My chief argument was against prolonging a general election, during the continuance of this War, for some twenty-five days before the result was made known. That would be an exceedingly dangerous thing for the country. It already takes under the Bill as it stands seventeen days to decide what the country is to say. If we are during the War forced into a General Election it would be on some vital issue—for instance, because the Government of this country has its own view as to carrying on the War, because this House of Commons refuses to support it, or because the Government of the country has its own view of the terms on which the War should be ended, and because this House of Commons is against it—and it will be necessary in the vital interests of the country to determine that question as quickly as possible. As the Bill stands, it will take seventeen days to determine the question, and that might be a dangerously long period. I do not know whether it can be shortened, but if you are going to add eight days to that, before the country can decide a question of that sort, I submit that it is a very dangerous thing to do, and I hope the House will hesitate very much before doing it. We all desire to see the soldiers and sailors and merchant seamen obtain their fullest rights, but in this matter they will be amply protected by allowing their voting papers to come in during the eight days between the nomination and the counting of the votes, and if that is not enough, then to allow them to vote by proxy, as provided in the latter part of the Clause. I earnestly ask the House to consider whether it will not be a most dangerous thing to say that, whatever may be the circumstances, it will be twenty-five days before you could get the voice of the country in a General Election during this War.

I support what was said by the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley), and I understand from your ruling, Sir, that the general discussion runs over Sub-sections (3) and (4).

So far as I understand, the Amendment on the Paper is first moved as a whole, but we are now discussing an Amendment moved by the hon. and learned Member to insert, before the first words which appear on the Paper, "During the continuance of the present War and a period of twelve months thereafter," and those words only refer to the paragraph marked (3), and so far as I am concerned that is the question to which the discussion should be directed. When we come to paragraph (4), that deals with a totally different point, namely, voting by proxy.

I think, Sir, that you have made the matter perfectly clear, at any rate to me. As to the Amendment, I submit that it goes beyond the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference and therefore I hope that the House will decide this matter relating to the soldiers and sailors and merchant seamen in the fairest and fullest possible way to them. I, for one, shall help to defeat the Amendment. Are these men to be penalised just because they are doing what none of us at the moment are doing? I submit that in the case of these men their vote, by the proposed new rule, is only preserved to them during the continuance of the present War, and for a period of twelve months after. [AN HON MEMBER: "No!"] That is my reading. But, at any rate, I see in this an attempt to differentiate between the ordinary voter and the soldiers and sailors, and merchant seamen, and I, for one, shall vote against the Amendment.

It seems to me that the hon. Member has completely misunderstood the proposal before the House. The soldiers and sailors and mercantile sailors will retain their vote all through! It is not a question of depriving people of their vote, but a question of their having the continuance, during normal times, of the special privilege which they enjoy in an abnormal period. The idea that we are opposing the votes to mercantile seamen is quite mistaken, for I am in favour of conferring, the vote on all men and women over the age of twenty-one years, and I repudiate the suggestion which has been made. All that we desire is that there should not be a continuance of the disorganisation which elections always bring for a very long period over the whole country, and if these people were not here and were not able to get their votes to the ballot box, though it might be allowed during an important General Election following the close of the War, it would be most undesirable in the interests of the country as a whole during the normal period that will follow. But, after all, this would really not affect a large number of votes, and deals with very few people.

I submit that it is not a matter of only a few votes, because, after the period of the War, there will be the votes of the men of the Navy. If the Committee is willing to take a favourable view of the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Devizes, I think it would be very advisable to do so, having regard to the fact that merchant seamen would then be in a better position than they would be if the hon. Gentleman's Amendment were not accepted, because it would allow, after the period of the War, votes to be given by proxy, and the men would have a better chance of recording their votes.

I cannot understand the action of hon. Gentlemen opposite. They say that they will give the vote to a certain class of men while the War is going on, and for twelve months after, but directly after the War is over we are to take away that right from them. [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] It is so. You are allowing a certain class of merchant seamen certain facilities which you take away afterwards. I cannot understand any hon. Member being willing to give the men a vote during the election, and then, at a time when probably the issue is just as vital as now, decide that they shall have it taken away from them.

I must apologise to the Committee for having made so short a speech in accepting this proposal, but I have this excuse. The point was discussed previously, and I then said that I proposed to accept it, and not a soul said "I hope you will not accept it." I think my hon. Friend's strong objection ought to have been made then. We had provided in a Clause already passed for the absent voter, in accordance with the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference, and every man on the absent voters' list was given the extra privilege of voting by post the whole time up to polling day, and nothing in this Amendment denies that. Then it was pointed, out to us on Second Reading that it must be remembered we are at war and that millions of our men, who under ordinary conditions would be at home, could not now exercise their privilege of absent voters in time, since they are in France or Flanders or elsewhere. The matter was entirely rested on the War, and it was said, "We are not asking for anything special in peace-time. We rest our case on the War." It was as a war point that we undertook to deal with it. Therefore, on putting down my first Amendment as to proxies, I confined it entirely to the period of the War and twelve months afterwards. The point now put was never raised until this moment, and I think it has been raised rather under a misapprehension. Just look at the matter. This Amendment is on the top of the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. I am trying to get something more than the Conference gave, and it is rather rough when I am doing my best to get that through the House, which I can only do by general consent, to have it thrown at me as if I were depriving soldiers or sailors of something which they already had. What does the suggestion mean? It means that for all time there will be eight days after the polling day before the votes are counted. There will always be absent voters, and this means that you are to lay down the rule that the counting shall never take place until eight days after the poll. I do not think it is wise to make that rule. Try it during the War, and, if it goes all right, the House will, no doubt, consider it further. I think it is very unwise to make it the law of the land now. A good deal has been said about the soldier and the sailor. In peace-time our soldiers will be in this country, and they will have the absent voters' privilege to enable them to vote.

I think after what the right hon. Gentleman has said I shall certainly not go against the proposal, but I would ask what is meant by the words "continuance of the present war." Do they mean the day peace is signed, or when hostilities cease? It must be remembered that our men will be in all sorts of places for a long time.

The words occur in a number of Acts of Parliament and we shall probably have a Bill to define when the War comes to an end. I think I have shown that I am not unreasonable in the attitude I have adopted.

From what I have been able to learn, there appears to be some misapprehension over the acceptance of this Amendment. The objection made to its acceptance I think is that the vote given to merchant seamen ought to be a permanent vote and ought not to be for the time of the War. I think that is a perfectly good point, but it is a point that does not arise in the least on this Amendment, which applies to the absent voter only, while the merchant seamen comes in under the proxy Clause. When we come to the proxy Clause there is a strong point to which I hope my right hon. Friend will give consideration, and that is that the proxy vote for seamen ought to be a permanent provision. If it is right for the merchant seamen to have that privilege now, it is equally right that he should have it in the future. That, I think, was the real question which the hon. Member for Devizes had in mind.

I entirely agree that the proxy vote is of infinitely greater value and applies to a much larger proportion of the merchant service. It must be remembered that merchant seamen are the main absent voters in times of peace, and they were the original movers for the absent voter's lists and special facilities. I regret that the eight days exception is proposed to be limited to the period of the War. I frankly admit there is a great deal in the contention that as a permanent provision it might be found to be cumbersome. As the Home Secretary has said, it might be found not to work badly during the War, in which case it would be possible to extend it. There is one further misapprehension I want to correct. I do not want to repeat anything I have said, but I can assure the Committee that I never for one moment imagined, and certainly I never said, that the Home Secretary's proposals meant withdrawing something which was settled at the Speaker's Conference. All I said was that, though inadequate, the proposals of the Speaker's Conference were intended to apply both in peace and war. I thought that was a very good principle, and I am sorry to see a departure from it. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] The right hon. Gentleman has practically laid down, for all time, in his own Amendment, the whole proposal which was come to in respect of proxy voting. If we can get proxy voting made a permanent enactment for sailors and soldiers, and merchant seamen, then I think we can give way on these minor points, and I would ask my hon. Friend not to press his Amendment.

I would wish to express to my hon. Friend my regret if I have misinterpreted him.

Everything depends upon the way the Home Secretary intends to treat the Amendment to Sub-section (4).

Perhaps the Home Secretary will give us some indication of what he proposes to do.

I hope the right hon. and learned Gentleman will not hurriedly make an announcement upon this subject, because there is a good deal to be said for both sides.

I should like it to be made clear as to what will be the position of the merchant seamen if this is made permanent?

I would like to say that I should desire to hear the arguments on both sides.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.

In order to elicit an explanation from the right hon. Gentleman, I should like to ask what is meant in Sub-section (3) by the words "at any elections to which the Order applies"?

I beg to move, in Sub-section (3) of the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "His Majesty may by Order in Council direct that."

This Amendment is to be followed by several consequential Amendments which deal practically with the whole of the Amendment moved by the Home Secretary. Perhaps it will be well to explain that the effect of these various Amendments will be to rearrange the counting of the votes, and make it eight days after the close of the poll; and to direct that the voting by proxy shall not apply to our soldiers in France or Belgium, where the post can reach them. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs. I wish very sincerely the Home Secretary had kept to the Amendment which he had down, and which we discussed here on 15th August. I think. My principal objection to his Amendment is in relation to the words I propose to omit. I have heard several hon. Members of this House—only a few minutes ago the hon. Member for Cork—say that it is for this House to decide these points, which should not be left to an Order in Council. The decision on all these various details are certainly the privilege of this House. This is the first time you are really enfranchising the soldier and the sailor. Surely, then, it is the duty of this House of Commons to decide by what means the soldier and the sailor is going to get his vote, and whether he is to have it by proxy or by the post. I should like to ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman who is going to decide the details of this Order in Council? I presume it will be some Government Department. If my Amendment is accepted, it will mean that the House of Commons will decide. The principal objection raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow in the Debate on 15th August was that the proxy voting was too general. I am endeavouring to meet that objection. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) said that the proxy vote is a course which must be adopted outside these limits in which it is possible for the Government to trust to the postal vote. My Amendment seeks to limit the vote by proxy to that area which is outside the limit which it is possible for the Government to trust to the postal vote. If the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes is accepted, this Amendment of mine will enable for all time the merchant seamen, and every soldier and sailor, to deliver their vote without any inconvenience to the public, such as the extension of the ordinary hours to eight days after the poll. I do ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman seriously to consider these Amendments which make considerably more clear what are the intentions of the House. If we let this Amendment go out of this House as it stands on the Paper there are very few hon. Members who will have the slightest idea under what conditions the soldier and the sailor will receive his vote. They have no idea in what area or lands he is to vote by post and in what by proxy. That is settled entirely by Order in Council, possibly by some Government Department. I do repeat that it is surely the duty of this House to settle these vital points, especially at the present time, when you are for the first time in the history of this country enfranchising the soldier and the sailor. The Home Secretary has always been entirely sympathetic in dealing with this question. I feel sure that if he cannot see his way to accept this Amendment he will put forward the Amendment which, unfortunately, he withdrew, and which I am afraid is not on the Paper now, or that he will consider this Amendment which I have put forward in order that the House may know exactly the position of the soldier and the sailor in regard to his vote when this Act leaves the House and goes to the country.

I am sorry to say that I am in disagreement with my hon. and gallant Friend, for it seems to me that the Amendment makes the position of the soldier very much worse than it is under the Clause as proposed. I understand my hon. Friend to suggest that the right to vote by proxy will be taken away entirely from all those who are stationed, or require to be, close to this country. To my mind the absent voter who votes by post is in a far less easy position to give an intelligent vote than by voting by proxy. Personally, I think that the system of voting by post is going to be in many cases futile, and in many cases unintelligible. I cannot conceive what the position would be among the men in France if they had to vote in such an election as that which took peace last night. At short notice, provided they were diligent students of the "Daily Mail," they might have found what the election was about. But on active service men do not care much about party politics, and would have a very faint idea as to the difference between the various candidates. There is a far better chance of recording a vote in the sense the absent voter would wish, by having an intellectual friend to give the vote.

On a point of Order. Is not my hon. Friend wrong in his assumption that this refers to voting by proxy? This only refers to the eight days' extension of time which may be granted.

I am afraid I must refer that point to the Minister in charge of the Bill.

The hon. Member moves it as governing the whole Clause. There are consequential Amendments on the Paper.

I think I am perfectly justified in what I am saying, that the result of this Amendment would be to deprive soldiers in France, and others fairly close to this country, of the right of voting by proxy, and, instead, ensure to them the right of voting by post. I think it is pretty obvious to everybody that the right of voting by proxy is a more intellectual way of voting, and therefore is a greater boon to the men. Therefore, if you are to take one method away, you should leave that which is more valuable.

9.0 P.M.

I gathered that the argument of the Mover of the Amendment was limited to taking out the first Order in Council which applies, not to the proxy voting, but to the application of the time limit for the declaration of the poll, and it is to that point that I shall address myself. What I understand my hon. and gallant Friend to suggest by his Amendment is that it is not necessary for any Government Department to exercise these powers by Order in Council, but that these powers might well be left to the House of Commons. I am no lover of a system by which you extend the time of the declaration of the poll. I believe it has many inconveniences, which I have on previous occasions set before the House. But, after all, we had to come to some agreement, and agreements are generally come to by compromise. This compromise was effected after, I think, great discussion in the House, and it was that whilst we should apply the proxy system to those who, under no circumstances, could be expected to give their votes otherwise, we should not apply the proxy vote to those who, by a reasonable extension of time, could be expected to be able to give their votes by post. That vas the compromise arrived at. If a method is to be adopted by which you will secure direct voting instead of indirect voting, it must be arrived at by some such method as the extension of the time for the counting of the votes. If that power is to be exercised, I think it is very easy to persuade the Committee that it cannot be exercised by the House of Commons itself. Perhaps a Division takes place in this House, and the Government, which has been showing some signs of tottering, is beaten, and an election is immediately sprung upon us. I do not think under those circumstances the House of Commons would be the body to decide exactly under what circumstances this power should be applied. If we are to have this power at all it should be exercised by a Government Department who can say where the soldiers and sailors are, and how far it is necessary to apply the power. If an election took place on the new register, and millions of men who would have votes under this Bill were fighting, or waiting to be demobilised, in various areas—because, for some time after the War, millions of soldiers will be abroad waiting for demobilisation—in such circumstances it may be that the Order in Council may have to be put into effect, and I think it must be obvious to the Committee that a Government Department, and not the House of Commons, would have to take any decision under this Clause. We must leave it to the discretion of some Department, whether it be the Home Office, the Local Government Board, or some other Department, to say how far, when and where, and under what circumstances this particular Order in Council shall be put into force. If you keep the power at all in the Bill, I am confident we must keep in these words, and leave it to a Government Department to exercise its discretion as to the particular circumstances under which this shall be put into force.

I did not hear the first part of the discussion, but if the strength of the Amendment is to be gauged by the weakness of the reply, then I am in favour of what my hon. and gallant Friend opposite suggests. After all, what is it the Minister in charge of the Bill suggests to the House? That either the Home Office or the Local Government Board, or any other Department should have the power to prescribe the time within which certain soldiers outside the United Kingdom shall have an opportunity to record their vote, is to my mind an absolutely ridiculous suggestion. Take the case of the Scottish soldiers who, as we know from past history, are sent to the furthest away outposts of the British Empire, the Scottish regiments are mainly employed in peace time in India and Egypt.

Only during the War. The proposal now is that in other circumstances the time within which those men will have an opportunity of recording their vote is to be placed in the hands of some Department. It may be a Department which for the moment is without its head, because the Government is in dissolution. You may have any kind of official you like deciding this matter, and I put it to the House whether they would like officials to determine the time within which a soldier or a sailor should exercise his right of citizenship. It is no good giving the vote unless those you give it to can exercise it, and if you start with all these difficulties in the way of recording the vote you might as well tear this Clause up. If we mean the sailor and the soldier to vote—and I am in favour of him voting every time, and the larger the franchise we have the better reflex we shall get of the opinion of the country—do not let us humbug these voters by setting up artificial restrictions which they cannot understand. We have had enough forms and regulations during this War. Half the difficulties we experience is due to the fact that our constituents do not know how to fill up the forms, and the sugar form is the latest and most terrible example. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the coal form?"] I have not worried much about coal.

I repeat that you cannot, if you are genuinely in favour of the sailor and the soldier having the vote, put artificial restrictions upon it. Every Minister will be out of office, and we have not sufficient confidence in the officials of the departments, or in the Home Office, because they are engaged with questions affecting the health of children, and not the votes of sailors and soldiers. Therefore, I am not prepared to leave the matter to the officials, and I shall support my hon. Friend's Amendment.

There are two wholly different points involved in this series of Amendments, and it is a great pity that they should be discussed together, and not treated separately. They raise wholly different issues, and I just want to ask you whether the decision on the first Amendment will be held to decide sub- sequent Amendments of the same nature. The point raised by the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment was that all these matters ought to be settled by the House of Commons instead of by an Order in Council. I think the Minister in charge of the Bill appeared to misunderstand the point, which was that it should be settled in this Bill, and not settled ad hoc whenever the election is called. The first question is whether we should leave it to the Order in Council to decide whether the time for counting the votes should be extended. The other question is whether it should be left to an Order in Council to decide what districts shall have the privilege of voting by proxy.

On a point of Order. I wish to state that I refrained from arguing that question, because I did not think we should be allowed to do so on this particular Amendment. I can imagine that this Amendment might meet with the favour of the Committee, but the subsequent Amendments might not.

I want to safeguard the Committee against what the mover of the Amendment said, and he stated that his was the first of a series of other Amendments, and I was afraid it would be held that——

Perhaps I had better make this point clear now. Whatever may happen to this Amendment will not prejudice similar Amendments moved later. They are two different propositions, and what may apply with regard to one may not apply with regard to the other.

That ruling cuts short anything I desired to say. My object was to safeguard the opportunity of raising what I feel strongly about subsequent Amendments. Personally, I do not care whether it is left to the Order in Council or settled in the Bill as to the extension of the days for counting votes, but the other subjects matter very much,

Surely the point is an exceedingly narrow one, and raises none of the larger issues just referred to. The Bill proposes, with regard to the extension of the date of counting the votes in order to enable the postal vote to be effectively exercised, that during the War and during a period of eight months afterwards the Government may, by Order in Council, cause such extension to be made. The Amendment suggests that instead of the Order in Council we should now say that that extension should be made. The point is a small one, but there is this possible state of affairs which perhaps ought to be in our minds: The period which is contemplated by this Sub-section is the period of the War and twelve months afterwards. It might well be that an election would take place three months after the period of the War. The Government could, by Order in Council, extend the period of counting the votes by eight days. Our sailors and soldiers might vote, and, indeed, the whole of the Army might have returned to England, and then six or eight months later, owing to some political crisis, there might be a second General Election, when the whole of the War conditions would have passed. The circumstances we now have in our minds would not operate, it would not be necessary to make a similar extension, and the desire might be that such an inconvenience should not be repeated. In those circumstances it would be the general desire of the public, and probably of Parliament, that there should not be this exceptional eight days' extension. In view of the possibility of that state of things, I would venture to submit that it might be better to leave the Bill as it stands, being quite sure that the Government would, by Order in Council, make the extension if the election were taken under War conditions.

I felt very doubtful about this Amendment, and I was greatly convinced by what fell from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. H. Samuel). He expresses a very obvious truth. I am no student of constitutional history, but the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hogge) based the whole of his argument against Orders in Council upon the fact that when a General Election takes place the Government goes out of office. Surely that is not so. When a General Election takes place the Government does not go out of office. Every member of the Government remains a member of it whether Parliament is sitting or not. It seems to me that an Order in Council is equally effective whether at the moment the House of Commons is sitting or not. On the whole, I personally think, after having heard hon. Members, that the best course will be to retain the Clause as it is at present drafted.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (3) of the proposed Amendment, to insert the words "and in any such case any vote received by the returning officer from an absent voter before the time at which the votes are to be counted shall be reckoned in the count."

Those of the Committee who were present earlier will recollect that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary withdrew the first part of his Amendment to insert the words "Provided that the returning officer shall not count any ballot paper marked by an absent voter if he is satisfied that the paper has been marked on a day subsequent to the day of polling." It was pointed out to him that there might be great difficulty in the returning officer being able to satisfy himself as to whether the ballot paper was actually marked before or after the day of polling. My right hon. Friend yielded to the arguments then used and withdrew those words. Consequently, it has become necessary to insert some other words.

I am not sure that this is quite satisfactory. The proposal of the Minister is that any vote received inside these dates shall be counted. What objection is there to the votes being taken up to a certain day at the place from which they come? Supposing you have a group of soldiers in India or Egypt, the announcement of the possibility of recording their votes would be made to them on one and the same day, and there surely ought to be a time limit at that place within which the votes ought to be recorded. If you are going to allow absent voters to have the right to vote within the limit of all the time, why should you not allow the voters at home to have that right also? It is known to Members that owing to local conditions men in certain factories working overtime are not able to record their votes. I once lost an election because certain workers in a factory were unable to record their votes inside that time, and were not allowed to have their votes recorded after the time. [An HON. MEMBER: "You thought you did!"] Whether I thought or knew that I did, the point is good enough to illustrate my argument. I am not asking that soldiers and sailors shall not have extra time within which to record their votes, but there ought to be a definite limit fixed within which the votes should be recorded at the place from which they come. Supposing it were Cairo, and supposing the election were on 5th September, and the extension was to 13th September, there ought to be a date inside those limits up to which the soldier could poll his vote. He is told on the 5th that he has the opportunity of recording his vote, and he ought to be given till the 7th, or something like that, to record it. Otherwise, all sorts of anomalies and difficulties may arise. I suggest that my right hon. Friend should consider making that further Amendment in this provision. It will give the soldier and sailor ample opportunity to record his vote, but there ought to be a limit within which the vote sent from the place at which it is recorded should count.

My hon. Friend only a short time ago implied that I was anxious to put all sorts of obstacles in the way of soldiers having their votes. I have been anxious all along to free the soldiers and sailors as far as possible from any obstacles not only in the way of their having votes, but also of recording their votes. Now my hon. Friend gets up and proposes that there should be, at all events, one obstacle in the way of their recording their votes. He thinks that it should not be a good vote until it is proved that it was given at Cairo within a certain time. That is exactly one of the difficulties which presented itself to the Committee at an earlier stage when my hon. Friend was not present. The votes come home from Cairo, and they must reach the returning officer in time to have them counted within eight days of the ordinary closing of the poll. The returning officer has got to say whether he will count those votes as good votes, or whether he will put them aside. How on earth can he find out from this gentleman at Cairo who is supposed to say whether they were given within a certain time? He cannot do it. The returning officer would not have the slightest knowledge whether those votes were good or bad eggs, or whether he ought or ought not to count them. I am surprised that my hon. Friend should come down to the House and rather lecture us for putting obstacles in the way of soldiers and sailors having votes, telling us that his one sole object is to remove all obstacles, and that then the first Amendment which he suggests should be one to put fresh obstacles in the way of soldiers and sailors giving votes which would be recognised by the returning officer as good votes.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in Subsection (4) of the proposed Amendment, to leave out the words "During the continuance of the present War, and a period of twelve months thereafter."

I feel that we have now come to the only real objection I have to the extended proposals of the Home Secretary. After the Debate we had in the Committee before, it was felt very generally throughout the country that the proposals of Mr. Speaker's Conference, whatever might have been said for them, that they were at any rate a new departure in recognising this principle of absent voting, were rather on conservative lines, so far as soldiers and sailors were concerned during the emergency of the present War, that they did not go far enough, and that it was necessary to give the option of an alternative, namely, a proxy vote, which I think was generally felt to be an inferior form of vote although it would be of much wider application. I welcome the fact that in this Amendment of the Home Secretary, in paragraph ( b ) (ii.) of Subsection (4), he puts in these words, period of twelve months thereafter. So far as the merchant service is concerned, members of the Committee are already satisfied that there is nothing in the circumstances of the present War to justify this distinction between this period and the future. The merchant service have been asking for twenty years to be given some practical facility for registering their votes. They have been able at any time to get upon the register of voters if they had a domicile and a home and the necessary qualification, but they have had absolutely no facility to register their vote; therefore as a great body they have been absolutely silent. That has been a misfortune for the country and a misfortune for Parliament. It is one that is going to be rectified now, and, thanks to these wider proposals, which I did not think would have ever been accepted so readily or so easily as they have been, so far as the somewhat revolutionary method of proxy voting is concerned, they are to be given complete facilities so far as that vicarious vote does give them.

I have already pointed out, in regard to the Army and Navy, that, although during the War there would be a larger number of our soldiers and sailors who are situated at such a distance from this country that they could only exercise a proxy vote than there would be in time of peace, there can be no possible justification for giving this vote during the War and for twelve months afterwards and then withdrawing it. Soldiers in India and officers and seamen in the Navy on distant stations, even as far away as the Mediterranean, would find the proxy vote much the easiest way of registering it. In these circumstances there is no reason why they should only be given a vote for probably only just a single election, which seemed to be generally indicated by the Debate on the insertion in Sub-section (3) of the very words I propose to omit from Sub-section (4). Every argument used then was from the point of view of inconvenience and delay, the keeping of the poll open, and so on. Not one of those arguments addressed to Sub-section (3) has the slightest application to Sub-section (4). It will not inconvenience anybody whether or not a man leaves a proxy behind him when he goes on foreign service. It will not inconvenience anybody when a man goes on contract with a shipowner, which he knows will be likely to keep him away from this country for eighteen months, if he leaves with his wife or some other responsible person a proxy to vote for him. It is only a question whether the Committee means to give an effective means of voting to soldiers and sailors in distant parts, not only during the War but afterwards, and to give the merchant service what they have been asking for for twenty years, namely, a means of registering their votes and making their opinion felt in our politics. One word with regard to the value to the country of this vote of the merchant service. I hold that in the great Imperial issues which will have to be settled after the War we cannot afford to lose it. We cannot afford to give this vote just for the moment, just for a single Parliament, and then say that these men shall have no facility to register their vote.

This Amendment raises a quite definite point, namely, whether or not a system of proxy voting, which has never yet been tried in this country, should now be made permanent. The subject of proxy voting was discussed at very great length on an earlier occasion and a great many hon. Members, not one or two merely, but a considerable number, expressed emphatically their reluctance to see a system of proxy voting established at all, and they only agreed to it because in the special circumstances of the War they regarded it as essential to make some special arrangements. It is in our view a thoroughly bad system of voting. The man himself does not vote at all. You talk of giving the merchant seamen a vote. You are not giving the merchant seamen a vote; you are giving a vote to some person whom he may nominate in the constituency. You are not giving the soldier or the sailor a vote when you allow the system of proxy voting. You allow the soldier or sailor to nominate an additional elector in the constituency. A man who is living abroad for a long time cannot be in touch with the issues of the election. He cannot be acquainted with the candidates. He merely trusts his political conscience to some person in whom he may have confidence in the constituency, and therefore it is with the utmost reluctance that in the special circumstances of the War we have agreed to an experiment being made in the working of this system. It will obviously be a method of voting exceedingly difficult to work. The elector is required to nominate as his proxy a person who is an elector in the constituency or his own wife. If he is not married, he has to make sure that the person whom he wishes to nominate resides in the same constituency as himself. Perhaps, as a rule, he may know whether the person he wishes to nominate really lives in the constituency, but in a divided borough in a very large number of cases the distant voter will not know whether the person whom he would like to act for him is in fact residing in the same constituency where he has been registered, or just across the boundary. In addition to that, the proxy is only allowed to act, according to the Amendment as it now appears on the Paper, for not more than two absent electors; that is to say, the distant soldier, when he chooses to nominate someone to act for him, must assure himself that the person has not already been nominated by two other absent voters.

The consequence will be that the distant voter, uncertain as a rule whether or not, unless indeed he is able to nominate his wife, the person he wishes to appoint will be able to cast a valid vote for him, will not quite know what to do. Every political agent in every constituency, the moment the Bill is passed in this form, will go through the list of absent voters, communicate with every one of them, send him a form, ask him to return it in blank, and will assure him that the agent of the party which he has always supported, and which he will no doubt support because it is in favour of A, B, C, and D's admirable proposals, will see that his proxy will not be wasted and will secure that a registered elector in the constituency, who has not already promised to vote for two others, will act as his proxy. The whole thing will immediately form part of the most active electioneering, and all the political organisations will set to work to communicate with the absent voters, and deluge them with political matter, send them pamphlets and so forth, in the hope of being able to catch a certain number of their proxies. It appears to many of us that the system is subject to many grave objections, and we shall find that the party agents will have in their hands a large number of proxies when the election comes along, just as the chairman of some company is able occasionally to secure from a great number of shareholders blank proxies which he can use as he pleases whenever a difficult question comes before the company meeting. All this has to be gone through every six months. Every time the register has to be made up the man has to appoint another proxy, or the same proxy afresh. The same communications will go all over the world from the party agents to all these absent voters to try to organise the absent vote and to find additional proxies. We can tolerate it for the first election because of the peculiar circumstances of great numbers of the soldiers serving in the more distant theatres of war, and in all probability the first election will come after the first register is made up. But this Amendment proposes that this system shall go on every six months for all time. Further, by the provisions of the Bill men who are Service voters will remain on the British register permanently. A soldier may have been for ten years in India. He may be utterly removed from all the political issues of this country. He may not have kept in touch at all with the candidates or the conditions of the constituency from which he originally came, and yet every six months he is to be invited to nominate an elector who will be, in fact, an additional plural voter in that constituency. Nowhere in the world has this system yet been tried. Many of our Dominions have endeavoured to get soldiers votes during this War, but not one of them has adopted the system of proxy voting. It has been absolutely untried either in this country or in any other, and it has not been recommended by the Speaker's Conference. It would be far wiser to try this system as an experiment during the War for the distant soldier who cannot vote by post before endeavouring to make it a permanent part of our electoral machinery.

I fully realise that there are considerable difficulties in this vote by proxy, but we accepted that principle when we settled that our seamen were not to be disfranchised because of their calling. We understood in August that the Home Secretary had accepted the seaman's vote by proxy in principle and we are justified in expressing a feeling of disappointment that in this Amendment he has gone suet a very short way in meeting the hopes of our seamen. It seems to me that if he carries out the Clause as he has put it down he will cause very acute disappointment amongst the body of men of whom the Prime Minister spoke so eloquently today. When we are handing out votes on all sides, as we are doing, it is certainly fair that we should see that no British seaman is disfranchised because of his calling. It is all very well to give them nice words of appreciation, but we now have an opportunity to give them real tangible power. The Home Secretary has the responsibility on his shoulders of having given the conscientious objector a vote under this franchise. If the Committee had voted freely the conscientious objector would not have got it. Meantime the conscientious objector has full political power in a country which he does not think it worth while to defend. The men for whom we plead now are showing that the love they have for their country is much greater than the love they have for their own lives, and the Home Secretary would be well advised to consider if he cannot accept this Amendment. Our seamen get hard knocks and little glory, and why should they not have their say in the management of their country which they have protected with such prodigality of courage and tenacity? If it had not been for the way our mercantile service has carried out their duties we should have been beaten, and the slaves of the Germans.

The Home Secretary would be well advised to remember that, although they have not, up to the present, had a great deal of consideration from the Parliamentary point of view, they have considerable power. What will happen if you do not give them the vote? If an election in which they are interested is coming on by a certain date, ships which ought to leave this country may be detained if the seamen say they intend to record their votes. We have had two very clear illustrations of the power they have. One was in the case of the "Saxonia." when 600 men were trying to evade military service by going to America. The firemen came up and said that the ship would not leave so long as those men were on board. We had another illustration when a certain number of delegates wanted to go to Stockholm or some other place, and the seamen and firemen said, "We will not take them." These men have shown that they have power, and if you place them in a position where they feel that they have no say in the government of the country, the time may very well come when they will say, "An election is coming on, and no ships will leave this country before the election, because we mean to vote." That would be very deplorable, and I am sure it is not what the Home Secretary really means. Therefore I ask him to seriously consider the position of these mercantile seamen. The Army and the Navy being great Services have many people in this House to look after their interests, but the mercantile seamen have no influential friends of that sort, and I think it would be a very wise thing if the Home Secretary would use a little of that generous protection which he extended to the conscientious objectors on behalf of those who are doing such noble service for their country.

The right hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr Herbert Samuel) made a very able speech in favour of the Clause as it now stands and against the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Devizes. He says that by the proxy voting system some remote soldier or sailor may hand his political conscience over to a proxy. Is it not a fact that many people in this country hand over their political principles to proxies? Is it not a fact that a very large proportion of any party at any election prior to the War handed over their political conscience to the keeping of the party with which they were for the moment attached. The right hon. Gentleman says that these absent voters may never see the candidate. That may be an advantage, or it may be a disadvantage. The fact is that in any contested election—and nobody has been in more elections than the right hon. Gentleman—only a small percentage of the electors ever really see the candidate. The right hon. Gentleman talks about deluging the men abroad with political literature. We have all been deluged with political literature. Why not deluge them? It would do them no harm. It has not harmed any of us. It may do them good. When the right hon. Gentleman suggests that because the British soldier is ten years in India he is not a fit person to elect a Member for this House I differ from him absolutely. I should say that by reason of the fact that he has lived in India and was serving the Crown in India, that was an additional reason why he should have a vote. He has that much advantage over the man who has never left the home country, but who remains on the voters' list and votes in the usual way. That is particularly true of the future. This House is no longer going to represent only domestic issues in the Mother Country. The Members of the House of Commons—and I am sure we are all pretty much agreed upon this—will have larger and wider Imperial issues than ever they have had in the past, and surely because an elector of this country is abroad he should continue to vote not only during the War, but for more than twelve months after the War.

The War may be over at any given time, but twelve months after the time fixed by Statute will be exhausted. It may be two or three years after that before very large numbers of our fighting forces can come home. It may be remembered that after the battle of Waterloo Wellington commanded an army of occupation in France until 1819, and it may very well be that half a million of British soldiers will form an army of occupation in some part of the continent years after this War is over. To deprive these men of the right to vote by proxy and at the same time to allow men in the home country who have never gone abroad to continue to vote is to draw a distinction between the man who has served and continues to serve his country abroad and the man who has not been called upon to go abroad, or in the case of the conscientious objector, the man who declines to do anything for his country in a time of need. There is nothing permanent in this Bill. It can be repealed in any Session of Parliament, and to suggest that this Amendment makes it permanent is a strange construction of the powers of the House of Commons. What the right hon. Gentleman means, if he means anything—and with his knowledge it is the only thing he can mean—is that this voting by proxy once given to soldiers and sailors, including the merchant seamen, will be so successful and will appeal to such a large, organised, and patriotic body of men that no House of Commons would ever dare to take the right of voting, so long delayed, away from these men. I support this Amendment as a measure of justice to men who deserve the best of the community, and I will go into the Division Lobby in favour of it.

I strongly support the views expressed by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. I have always been in favour of the avoidance, if possible, in this Bill of the words "for the continuance of the present War." I speak more especially for sailors. After the War there will be a large number of men travelling about the world in ships, men in the Royal Navy and men in the Marines, and these men ought to have an opportunity of voting by proxy just the same as men who have served during the continuance of the War. Therefore, I hope the Home Secretary will see his way to accept the Amendment.

With universal consent this House is granting to sailors and soldiers and merchant seamen a vote which in many cases they have never before enjoyed. What is a necessary corollary to such action t I think it is that you should give them an opportunity of exercising that right. If you are going to give them an opportunity of exercising the right during the War, is there any conceivable reason why that opportunity should be taken away from them as soon as twelve months after the War have elapsed? I could understand a man—if there be such an idiot in the world—saying "I will give a man a vote, but I will not give him the opportunity of exercising it," but I cannot understand this House saying, "We will give you the right to exercise it during the War and twelve months afterwards, but immediately that time is over that right must be taken away." After the War the position of the merchant seamen—and God knows what they have done for the interests of the Empire during this War, and we ought to remember it!—as to exercising their vote will be substantially the same as it is during the War. Perhaps nine-tenths of their time they will be out of the country, and unless some opportunity of voting by proxy is given them it will be practically impossible for them ever to exercise their votes. Before the War there were merchant seamen on the register who probably never exercised a vote in their lives. Why you should deprive them of the right of exercising their vote as soon as the War is over I cannot understand. The case of the men in the Royal Navy is almost exactly the same. Let us take the case of the soldiers again. Before the War I brought in a Bill year after year—and it was supported by many of my hon. Friends around me now—for the purpose of giving soldiers votes, and something more—giving them an opportunity of exercising those votes. I talked to officers, non-commissioned officers, and men who had got upon the register and had been upon it for ten years——

Did the hon. and learned Gentleman propose that they should vote by proxy?

Yes; I proposed that they should as an alternative be allowed to vote by proxy. I drafted the Bill myself. I dare say it was a bad Bill. [An HON. MEMBER: "It was a very good one!"] Well, I thought it was, but I could not get it passed in those days. The fact is these men who are saving the Empire to-day, our soldiers, sailors, and merchant seamen, were not thought so much of then as they now are. We know what they are doing, and after many years we are giving them the right to have a voice in the government of the Empire. I do beg of my right hon. Friend—I know he has the interest of the soldiers, sailors, and merchant seamen at heart—I know he has striven his hardest to make this Bill effectual for the purpose of giving them a vote and enabling them to exercise it—I do beg of him to go this one step further and say he will make it their right to exercise their vote effectually, not merely during the War and twelve months thereafter, but for all time. If any difficulty were discovered in the operation of this Clause, it could be easily amended by a future Parliament and made more workable. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will affirm the general principle of giving these men the right to exercise their vote and leave it to a future Parliament to say whether or not the right should be limited. Let us make a clean job of it now and give them the right to have a vote and exercise it.

Does this Amendment really carry out what is intended by the hon. Member? I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Sub-section (4) says in effect that the following special provision shall apply ( a ) in respect of persons registered as naval or military voters. Are not persons registered as naval or military voters the persons to whom Clause 5 of this Bill applies? Are they not under Clause 5 entitled to obtain a vote only in respect of the War and for a period of twelve months after. If so, is not this Amendment redundant? Does not Clause 5 set up a class of naval and military voters for the War and twelve months thereafter?

I have here Clause 5 of the Bill as amended, and, as I understand it, it gives the vote to members of the naval and military forces of the Crown provided they are resident in the constituency. That is one branch; in the second branch it gives them the franchise only if they are serving abroad in connection with any war in which His Majesty is engaged. It applies, therefore, to persons serving in the field as members of the naval or military forces of the Crown, but only when they are resident in the constituency. It appears to me that Clause 5 does two things; it gives the vote to the naval and military forces of the Crown if they are resident in the constituency, and, secondly, it gives them the franchise if they are abroad provided that they are abroad in connection with any war in which His Majesty is engaged.

The Government Amendment as it stands gives them the vote. As I understand the Amendment now under discussion, it proposes to enable them to vote by proxy under certain circumstances.

As I understand it, we are merely discussing now the question whether a certain privileged method of voting shall last during the War or shall be made permanent. I suggest that is a somewhat small point.

I suggest that this, particular privilege is very much easier to continue if we find it is a useful and practicable method than it would be to discontinue it in the other event if it were granted permanently now. I am one of those who are anxious to get every man and woman on the register and to give them the best possible opportunity of voting. My hon. Friend who moved this Amendment agreed with me at the Conference that there were such grave practical objections to voting by proxy that it was inadvisable for us to recommend it. That was the opinion held by a considerable number of Members in this House when the question came up the other day. I am very grateful to the Home Secretary for having discovered a method by which this point can be dealt with by the general consent of the House, and I think his proposal is one that we should agree to, the more so because it is only experimental. This method of proxy voting has never yet been tried by anyone, not even by the colonies. They are proposing, I believe, something of the kind in Canada, and because we have set the example here. At least, I believe so.

It is a very unusual thing, I admit, for us to set the example, but I think if my hon. and gallant Friend looks into it he will find that this was proposed in this country before it was proposed in Canada. Therefore, the suggestion that the vote should not be used by the elector but by someone else acting on his behalf, is a suggestion that has never been put into practice. Some of us feel that the objections to proxy voting are so great that we would rather see it work before we commit ourselves to it. The proposal of the Home Secretary is surely the wisest. We are going to give an opportunity of voting by proxy to soldiers, sailors, and merchant seamen. We are going to give them this advantage for, I suppose, the next year or two, at any rate, and they are all going to have the opportunity of voting at the next General Election.

The right hon. Gentleman said we are giving this opportunity to all soldiers and sailors. That does not do that.

I understand the Bill, as we have agreed to it, now provides that all soldiers, sailors and seamen who are away from this country, and who are so far away—[HON. MEMBERS: "Ah!"]—that they cannot vote by post, are to have the opportunity they wish for.

Surely I am not far wrong in saying that we have given them the opportunity. On the question of the method of voting by merchant seamen, I am not at all convinced that the proxy system is the best. When the Conference was sitting I discussed with a gentleman who has taken a very great interest in the, voting of merchant seamen and in advocating the giving of the vote to them—because, as we know, very few get the vote—and his suggestion was not voting by proxy. His desire was that the merchant seamen of this country should form one or two constituencies, and that they should be entitled to elect an individual Member of Parliament for themselves, and that they should do that by a system of registration at all the ports; not that they should have their own particular vote recorded for them by somebody else. This is a very different thing altogether, and therefore I believe that if we are willing to give the merchant seaman the opportunity of voting—and I myself am anxious to do so—we may find later on that we can give them a better system. [HON. MEMBERS: "Do it now!"] It cannot be done now by general consent, and, therefore, I hope that the Home Secretary will adhere to the very ingenious and effective way of meeting the wishes of all parties in this House that is contained in this Clause, and that we may not find ourselves split up upon this question when it really is a little premature as what we are doing is all that those who advocate the proxy vote wish, at any rate, for the next General Election.

This Clause is really only to carry out a system of voting in the case of persons to whom the vote has already been given by the Bill. It does not create a new vote, but gives an opportunity to establish the method by which the vote given shall be cast. If we have already determined that a certain number of men should have the vote the question of whether it should be during a particular period or until Parliament otherwise determines is really what arises. I should have thought we should have found common agreement that in all cases merchant seamen at sea, or about to go to sea, should have an opportunity of exercising their franchise. The disability under which they suffer is a matter of common regret. It may be that the gentleman who advised the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Dickinson) as to another method may have an opportunity of arguing the case and of indicating that it would have been better to adopt another system than proxy voting. He suggested registration at the port, but the real point about the seamen is that for the period of days during which the election is held they do not come into port and cannot register their vote. I do not think the solution of giving them constituencies to themselves and saying that they must vote at the port would really get rid of the disability under which they suffer at present.

I did not say they should register their vote in the port. I said they would be registered at the port. There are registers at the ports.

I do not think the gentleman referred to met the difficulty. The question is not whether they should be registered, but how they are to exercise the franchise and deliver the vote. We are not told as to that, but some method ought to be found. The proposal now is that the difficulty should be taken away by the proxy vote. The difficulty of the merchant seamen is not one that is going to be measured by a period of the continuance of the War and twelve months afterwards. This is the disability that has lasted for a great number of years, and that will last as long as the seaman goes to sea and is not in a position to exercise his franchise during the time that a General Election is on. I hope that we may certainly agree that proxy voting for merchant seamen should be without limit of time When we come to the other question on which the right hon. Gentleman in front of me made some rather strong and powerful criticism, as to whether in the case of military voters who are away for a prolonged period of absence, in India or elsewhere, the proxy vote is the right system for them, I do not attach any importance to the question of whether or not they get a sufficient or an insufficient quantity of literature delivered to them. I think there is something to be said as to whether or not after a period of absence they are able to take as keen a part in the election as those on the spot; but I think they are. At the present time the means of transmission of news is so good that I think the voter, wherever he is, if he informs himself at all as much as the ordinary voter does, is really quite competent to exercise his predilection for one candidate or another, whether he is resident in the country or in India, which, after all, is not separated by a sea journey that takes six months, but is only distant from us a fortnight at the most in ordinary times, because of the speedy transmission of the mail. It may be a matter of greater doubt whether you would wish to maintain the system of proxy in such a case, and it may be that you would adopt the proxy vote in all cases for seamen, and be very hesitating about it in the case of a military voter. I beg the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment. On the whole it comes to this: that there is given a right to vote, and this is really a question as to the method of exercising the right that has been given. Parliament has ample time if this system fails to alter it, and during the period of the present War and twelve months afterwards we shall learn. If I may draw any sort of inference from previous franchise Bills it is that you will always find that there are Bills to amend the Bill in chief after a very short period of time. I think it quite unlikely that there will be no amending Bill in the course of the War and twelve months afterwards. I think it probable that we shall find a franchise Amendment Bill because of the vast questions with which we have to deal, and, if so, the question of proxy can be reconsidered. Do not let us give with one hand and take away with the other. Let us say that we have determined that they shall be given these votes, and at any rate for the present show our determination to make possible for them to use what we have given and so eliminate the words which are certainly open to the construction that we are only making a very temporary provision of these votes and are not certain of the course which we intend to adopt.

On a point of Order. Has the scope of Clause 5 been enlarged, because the only Clause dealing with the absent voters' list is Clause 5?

I have many difficult problems in connection with this Bill. They are always arising and have to be considered on their merits. Great interest is taken in this matter, but I would ask hon. Members not to forget that we are dealing with this question of franchise by the general consent of the House, and that we desire to take with us its general consent in all the decisions to which we come and all the advice which we give. I have looked into the matter as carefully as I can and I have heard the greater number of speeches to-night and I think that my hon. and learned Friend has drawn a distinction which may, perhaps, enable us to come to an agreement upon this matter. Following up his distinction I want the Committee to distinguish for a moment between the naval and military voter and the seaman. I leave the seaman aside for a few moments, if I may, to refer only to the naval and military voter. As regards that voter, I think that I am right in saying that the circumstances in which this whole system of proxy was proposed by us depended upon the War. The matter arose in reference to the War. It was a temporary measure during the War and demobilisation—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—I am only stating the matter as it presents itself to me—during the time that vast numbers of men were abroad on active service and had to be specially provided for. At all events, the promise that we gave to deal with the matter had reference to the War. I speak with certainty upon that. It was to meet the War that we proposed the proxy for soldiers. It is merely during the War that for the soldier this matter is of particular value. After the War, when we come to times of peace and the Army is demobilised, the bulk of our Army will be in this country. Those of them who may be in Europe, at Gibraltar, and so on, will probably be able to take advantage of the vote by post. It is only our soldiers who may be in India, the Cape, or some very distant place, who would come within the provisions of the Sub-section which we are now discussing.

I am dealing with the soldiers, and so far as they are concerned the voting by proxy will not be of much value to them. The soldiers in India, at the Cape, or in Australia, or a long way off, under this particular provision would have to exercise this particular power every six months. Each six months they would have to apply afresh for the proxy, without knowing if there was an election coming or not. I submit that in times of peace a power thus limited would seldom be used at all. I would suggest to the Committee that it would do wisely to accept the limitation of one year after the War in regard to soldiers, and if we found the system a success, the whole House would be only too willing to extend the matter further. That is the view I put to the Committee. As to the seamen, I quite agree that theirs is a different claim, and that the circumstances relating to them are not contingent upon the War, but are of a more lasting character. It is quite unnecessary for us to express our admiration of their work, not only in this War but at other times. There is nobody in the House who will not be only too glad to do something for the seamen, but this question is not one of rewards, and I differ from my hon. Friend who gave that as a reason. We are not giving any reward to the seamen at all, and that cannot be called a reward which is given to the greater part of the population. My hon. Friend suggested that the seamen had powers to take some step or other which might do injury to the country, but that is an argument which is not worth using, and has no weight with the Members of this House.

What I said was that if the seamen were to record their votes it might keep ships waiting.

I would like to suggest to the Committee that we should keep the words of the Amendment so that it might apply to the naval and military voters, and leave out sub-paragraph (ii.), which refers to merchant seamen, and at the end of the Clause insert words providing that the Sub-section shall apply to merchant seamen at sea, or about to go to sea, as they apply to naval and military voters; and, as respects such seamen, the limitation of time as to the period of the present War, and the period of twelve months thereafter, shall not apply. In other words you would make the Sub-section permanent as regards the seamen who have a permanent case, but you would, in accordance with what has been up to now the general understanding, limit it as regards the naval and military voters to the period of the War, and twelve months after.

That is exactly why I ventured to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman. Does he maintain' that this does not apply to the Navy, for that is what I particularly object to?

What I said with regard to the military voter was intended to apply to the naval voter. The naval voter in home waters would be able to vote. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] He would be able to vote by post—a privilege which he has not got now, but which he will have in the future. As regards the sailor abroad, I think he is really in the same position as the soldier abroad, and my remarks apply also to him. I think the proposal which I have made is not an undesirable one. We meet the point about the seamen, and my feeling is with regard to the other that at no time did we receive the consent of the House beyond the period of the War and demobilisation.

I am quite sure that the Committee realise that the right hon. Gentleman on this occasion, as on all occasions in which this Bill has been before the Committee, has endeavoured most scrupulously to carry out every pledge and undertaking that he has given. I think, indeed, that the Clause as it stands on the Paper interprets quite faithfully the general understanding that was come to when this matter was discussed previously. We had then a long Debate, and the whole of that Debate was concerned with the vote of the soldier and the sailor during the War. That was the only thing we were discussing at that time, if my recollection is right. To that was added the merchant seamen, and the right hon. Gentleman undertook to postpone the Clause and to bring up at a later date a new Clause which would give the postal vote wherever it could be exercised and the proxy vote wherever the postal vote could not be exercised to the soldier and the sailor and the merchant seamen during the War. That he has done, and I think the Committee generally should be thankful to him for having carried out so fully the undertaking which he gave and should accept the Clause as it stands.

As regards merchant seamen, I did not limit my references to the War. I have looked at my speech, and I said I would consider the possibility of giving him a permanent right.

I do not remember that the point was ever raised in Debate, though my recollection may be at fault, of any of these classes of voters getting a permanent vote. We were discussing all the time the War period. I am most anxious to assent to any arrangement that would command general agreement. I am afraid that the suggestion just thrown out by the Home Secretary does not appear to be a very happy one. He draws a distinction between the three classes. He says that for the soldier the proxy vote is to last only during the War, and for the sailor on His Majesty's ships it is to last only during the War and twelve months afterwards, but that for the seamen it is to be permanent. In practice that would give rise to great difficulty. Imagine a station such as Malta! There you have a garrison. You have ships of war in the harbour, and merchant ships going in and out. The men who are in the garrison on shore do not have the vote. Nor do the men on the warships. But the men on the merchant ships do have whatever electoral privileges the proxy vote gives them. In my opinion they do not have a vote, because they do not vote. They have the privilege of adding additional plural voters to the constituency in which they mainly reside. The discrimination would, I think, cause a good deal of heartburning, and could not stand as a permanent arrangement. Subject to anything that may be said, I am disposed to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman had better adhere to the Clause as it is laid down on the Paper.

On behalf of the soldier, I cannot agree for one moment to the proposition put forward by the Home Secretary. To draw the distinction proposed between the three classes is hopeless and impracticable, and would lead to intense jealousy all over the world. We have soldiers who are not more than a fortnight away from the country. What possible objection is there to their registering their proxy vote every six months? If you deprive the soldier of his vote, you deprive him of something which he values. The whole House is in favour of the proposal. We have had two Members speaking against. The right hon. Member for St. Pancras says: "The proxy vote is an experiment, therefore I will propose another one." [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Then, again, I was certainly not impressed by the arguments of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland. His great argument was that the voter would not know the candidate. Good heavens! When I went to a certain election I was told not to go down a certain street where, if a yellow flag was hung out, the people would vote for it. That is the sort of argument used! It is the greatest mistake in the world to make this differentiation. The Amendment ought to be accepted. If the Home Secretary does not see his way to accept it, we can only vote against him.

It is very strange! You have every Member of the House saying that he is in favour of the widest form of franchise; that he is in favour of the soldier and sailor and merchant seaman getting the vote. Then two of them, at once, being "willing to wound and yet afraid to strike," proceed to criticise the proposed methods, and so try to prevent the three classes from getting the vote. We can see perfectly well through those tactics. I want to have a clear vote in this Committee. I want to have the genuine opinion of the House of Commons as to whether or not we are prepared freely and unreservedly to give to the soldiers, sailors, and merchant seamen their rights of citizenship. I for one shall certainly vote for this Amendment. It is perfectly true, as the hon. Member for St. Pancras and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland said, that the proxy vote system is not perfect. Heavens knows that! But it is very much better to give those concerned an imperfect way of exercising their votes than to deny votes to them. At this stage of the War, when our sailors, soldiers, and merchant seamen have done so much for the country, it would be a scurvy trick not to give them the vote.

I do not think I have heard a much more unfair remark than that of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down.

The hon. Member said we deny votes to these men. We do not do any such thing, and the proposal of the Government does not do any such thing. A remark has been made as to the number of Members who have spoken in favour of this Amendment, and the number of those who have supported the Government's proposal. It is the mere accident of debate that there happens to be more speakers on one side than the other. When you support the Government you do not necessarily speak but rather leave it to the spokesmen of the Government. I think the Home Secretary would have done well to stick by his Clause, as he introduced it. I am rather afraid that, although the compromise which he has introduced is made with the very best intentions, it has a consequence which he did not quite foresee, and that is of making a discrimination, a distinction against the Royal Navy. Had not the case of the other men better also be left to that Amending Bill which we are assured by the hon. and learned Member is sure to be intro- duced? As a matter of fact, the argument of the hon. and learned Member destroyed any reason whatever for making this experiment permanent. We are told there is sure to be an Amending Bill. In that case, if this system is successful, then we shall be able, by a line or two in it, to make it permanent, but this Amendment would make it permanent, whatever the objections to it might be. This is a proposal which has been developed owing, I believe, to the common sense, the united feeling of the House, not to deprive soldiers and sailors of their votes, but to give them their votes. But, after all, it is a new proposal compared with the Report of the Speaker's Conference. It is quite novel, and it is untried, and there may be pitfalls about it of which we have had no experience. With the absence of millions of our countrymen an opportunity is given for the experiment, but if we make it an experiment to last for the War and twelve months after we more certainly hold in this House the power of reviewing it. It is just as easy to continue it as to repeal it. I think it is much better for this House to retain the power in its hands of continuing such an experiment than to rely on having to repeal it if it is objected to. The hon. Member opposite spoke of politicians handing over their consciences to their party.

Yes; but the hon. Member expanded it and said that a great many politicians do it, and I wish to point out the distinction between making a proxy six or twelve months before an election takes place and handing over your conscience to your party and voting yourself after reading all the election literature you care to and hearing the speeches of the statesmen on both sides. Then, after the proxy vote is given, the party may be split. There may be new questions entirely brought before the country, and the man who votes by proxy does, at all events, lose the advantage of the discussions which take place betwixt the statesmen of the contending parties. I do not think he quite did justice to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland in reporting him as having said that the man who had been in India for ten years was not a fit person to exericse the franchise. The argument of the right hon. Gentle- man the Member for Cleveland meant nothing of the kind. It was that a man who had been away for ten years was divorced from all acquaintance with the topics which were being decided by the election. I hope the Home Secretary will, as he has expressed his intention of doing, stand by the words which limit this experiment to the period of the War, and for twelve months after.

It is a little difficult to understand why the supporters of this Amendment are pressing it so hardly upon the Committee. The Government after full consideration have reached a solution of this problem. Anyone who has studied this question knows that it is a most difficult one and the Government have suggested a solution which meets the present difficulty. They have got for that proposal the general consent of the House. I do not see why those who care so strongly for this vote for the absent voter should desire more than to make this experiment. Many proposals have been made. The Speaker's Conference considered it very fully, but did not recommend any solution. But the Home Secretary has done better, for he has produced a temporary method of dealing with the difficulty, and why not try it? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I do not conceal from the Committee the fact that I view with the greatest misgiving this particular method for enabling these absent voters to vote. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland has pointed out the possible dangers, which have not been met by the supporters of the Amendment. We are all practical electioneerers, and we know what the skilful party agents can do in the matter of collecting votes for their own party, and it is shutting our eyes to facts if we do not realise that in introducing this method of proxy voters you are introducing something which can readily be manipulated by party agents. The hon. Member for Blackpool said that this was not a perfect system. How does he know that?

I know it because two right hon. Gentlemen have pointed out that it is not perfect.

It may turn out to be a very satisfactory system, and, if so, nothing would be easier than to continue it. It is quite true that if you make it permanent, although it is unsatisfactory, it would be exceedingly difficult to undo. Those of us who have these misgivings and are doubtful in regard to this new experiment are entitled to appeal to the Committee and to ask the supporters of the Amendment not to press it upon the Committee. They cannot pass this Amendment without dividing the Committee. We are trying to proceed by agreement, and this Clause will meet the immediate difficulty of the next two years. If it works well, then we shall know how to deal with it afterwards on the lines of that experience. Therefore I think we are justified in appealing to the Movers of the Amendment not to press it.

I want to enter a caveat in regard to the statement which the last speaker has made that we are proceeding in regard to this Amendment by consent. I am afraid by that he means by the consent of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland. If the Home Secretary sticks to his present position he will not be proceeding by the consent of those who are the followers of his party, and I am pretty sure he will be proceeding against the feeling of every Service Member of this House. I do think on a question like this, which affects soldiers and sailors vitally, and when so many Service Members of the House are away, that some deference ought to be paid to those who have served in the forces and who do know more or less the wishes of His Majesty's Forces. I am rather curious to know why the right hon. Gentleman takes up this position now when he took up such a different position on Clause 5 of the Bill. When that Clause was first introduced it was limited to "during the continuance of the War and for a period of twelve months afterwards." Further on it was said, "This Section applies to any person who in connection with the War is abroad and is," etc. As the Bill went through the Committee that Clause was very largely amended. The words "during the continuance of the War and for a period of twelve months after the termination thereof" were cut out. The words "This Section applies to any person who in connection with the War is abroad and is" were altered to read, "This Section shall apply to any person who in connection with any war in which His Majesty is engaged is abroad and is." Therefore, the Clause started as applied to the present War. It was so altered to apply to any war. All we want to do is to cut out these words "during the continuance of the War and twelve months afterwards" from this New Clause in the same way as they were cut out from the Clause in which the soldiers and sailors were put upon the register. What is the good of putting them upon the register if you do not give them the opportunity of voting? It makes the whole thing mere eye-wash I fully grant that voting by proxy is not the best way of voting, but it is the only possible, way in these cases, and it is very much better than that they should not be able to vote at all. That is all we contend. I quite understand the point which the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) took up the other night. He regarded with great misgiving the possibility of soldiers and sailors voting at all.

I did not say that. They vote at the present time. I said that I was amazed at the levity with which it was proposed to introduce political controversy into the ranks of soldiers in face of the enemy, and I asked whether the Government really contemplated allowing candidates to go and address soldiers and hold meetings.

I quite understand the hon. Member's point. He does not think it a good thing that the soldiers and sailors at the front should be able to vote.

I do not see the distinction. I quite understand those who say that they do not think that soldiers and sailors should be allowed to vote, but I do not understand the point of view of those who are quite ready to put them upon the register but when they are on the register would not give them every possible facility for voting. I am anxious that it should apply in the very widest way. I have never been able to understand why a soldier and sailor should lose his vote immediately that he goes abroad. Sailors may be only a short way from home and yet they could not vote under the absent voters' system. The case of soldiers is still stronger. The soldiers serving in India, in our Colonies or in any of the stations overseas, would be a valuable element in our elections. I want every possible facility to be given to them to vote. With regard to the merchant seamen and fishermen, you have there a class whose difficulty of voting has been one of the blots on our election system. Everyone who has represented a seaside constituency knows the flukings which occur according to the day the fishermen go out and the day they come home. I want to see an end put to that. I hope that whether or not the right hon. Gentleman accepts the other principle, he will stick to his guns over the question of the merchant service and fishermen. I want to see all these classes get a vote and the possibility of recording their vote. But if the right hon. Gentleman cuts out one class I hope that, at all events, he will keep in that class.

Then I understand, from the right hon. Gentleman's present attitude, that the fishermen and merchant seamen will not be able to vote in these circumstances. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not after the War!"] I must say that will be regarded with the greatest dissatisfaction in all the circumstances concerned. I hope my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment will go to a Division, and, if he does, I shall certainly vote for it.

I have listened with the greatest care to the spech of the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders), and that of the hon. Member for Black-pool (Mr. Ashley), to whom I pay great attention always, but I do not think they quite accurately represented the position. Take the speech of the hon. Member for Bridgwater. He alluded to Clause 5. I have just looked at Clause 5. What does it do? It puts every soldier who is in England on the register, who, if the Clause had not been passed, would not be qualified to be on the register, because he would not have resided for a certain period in a constituency. Therefore, Clause 5 gives every soldier who is in the United Kingdom a qualification for a vote, and will give him the opportunity of recording his vote. It is not quite fair to say that this is a question as to whether soldiers and sailors should have the vote. They are going to have it. [HON. MEMBERS: "They cannot exercise it!"] Every soldier or sailor who is in the United Kingdom will be able to exercise his vote, and will be put on the register in a way he would: not have been put upon the register if Clause 5 had not been introduced.

May I develop the point I was endeavouring to put to the Committee? We come to the case of the soldiers who are now fighting for their country and who deserve to have the vote. They will have that vote. They will be able to record it by proxy not only during the War, but for a period of twelve months after the War. It is contended by the hon. Member for Blackpool (Mr. Ashley) and the hon. Member for Bridgwater (Colonel Sanders) that soldiers who have not fought for their country for fifteen or twenty years and who may happen to have been sent to India shall have the opportunity of recording the vote in England by proxy. They would be quite unable to know of the subjects which were occupying the minds of the people. [HON MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because they would not know anything about them—how could they know? [HON. MEMBERS: "We shall have balloons by then!"] Then if we have balloons these is nothing to prevent soldiers getting leave and coming over here and exercising the vote. I am not putting my opinions because they are popular, but because I believe them to be right. How could they know in India? If they read the papers, those papers do not give a correct impression of what is going on. Far from it. The Debates of this House are not reported.

I rarely do it, and if I did I should not take my opinions from it. I do not know whether my hon. Friend is a reader of it. Even if he is I should not alter my opinion. It is quite impossible to suppose that a soldier in India can exercise his vote by giving a proxy over in England, and can have any control whatever over it. It is absolutely impossible. Everyone in the House knows it is so. Under the circumstances, in view of the fact that the Government have, after a great deal of consideration, put down this Amendment, which I believe represents the intention of the House when it originally left the question open, I trust the Government will adhere to the Amendment.

I could not help feeling exceeding disappointed, from the point of view of the merchant service, at one remark of the Home Secretary which I think he must have uttered in a moment of irritation. He made an offer which, as far as the merchant service is concerned, it had every reason to be pleased with and which would naturally satisfy them completely, except from the point of view Of being put in a position of privilege which was not extended to the Navy or to the Army. In that respect I feel quite sure that they would not welcome it as much as the Amendment I have put down. I feel satisfied that there are a great many members of the Committee who are not here to-night and who are intensely Interested in this question, which has been touched on on occasions and has been carried over to this late point in the Schedule. I do not feel that it ought to be left without having the very fullest consideration and that there is no question that a Division cannot possibly be avoided. In that respect the Home Secretary was perfectly correct, I was not in a position to accept his offer. It is true I moved the Amendment and he made an offer that satisfied the interest in which I am particularly concerned. The Division being inevitable and the offer drawing invidious distinctions between sailors in our Navy and the sailors in the merchant service——

It being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at One minute after Eleven o'clock.