House of Commons
Monday, October 29, 1917
Colonial Reports (Annual)
Copy presented of Colonial Report, No. 936 (Gambia, Report for 1916) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Destructive Insects and Pests Acts
Copies presented of Orders numbered D.I.P. 486 to 493, declaring an area described in the Schedule thereto to be infected with Wart Disease and an infected area for the purposes of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865
Copies presented of Four Orders in Council, dated 23rd October, 1917, approving Memorials of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty made under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890
Copies presented of Orders in Council, dated 23rd October, 1917—
(1) applying the Geneva Convention Act, 1911, to certain Protectorates; and
(2) extending Section 20 of the Finance Act, 1894, to the Uganda Protectorate
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Merchant Shipping Act, 1894
Copies presented of Final Order in Council, dated 23rd October, 1917, suspending during the War the modifications contained in Orders in Council of the 26th June, 1884, and the 17th October, 1884, respecting certificates for passenger steamers granted by the Governments of Bombay and Bengal, respectively [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Closing Order made under the Act by the Council of the under mentioned local authority, and confirmed by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland:—
County borough of Limerick
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Ministry of Food
Copies presented of Intoxicating Liquor (Output and Delivery) Order (No. 3), 1917, Jam (Prices) Order, 1917 (General Licence), and Bacon, Ham, and Lard (Maximum Prices) Order, 1917 (General Licence), made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Timber Purchases
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the pre-war price of home-grown timber purchased for Government requirements; the increase in price which has taken place since the outbreak of war; and the cause of such increase?
As the answer is a long one I will circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.— [ See Written Answers this date. ]
Is my right hon. Friend aware that by competition, largely of private buyers with Government buyers, prices of certain classes of timber have now been raised from 4d. to 11d. per cubic foot and will he state why our requirements were not commandeered at fixed prices as has been done in the case of coal, shipping and railways, and also of wool, hay and oats?
I am not aware of the facts stated by the hon. Member.
Enemy Air Raids (Insurance)
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he is aware of the way in which persons insured against aircraft and bombardment damage are treated in respect of their claims when they have been agreed by the surveyors for the Government and the insured, and when they ask for payment of the agreed sum they are in some cases offered a reduced sum and informed by the solicitor for the Board of Trade that if this is not accepted their remedy is to present a petition of right against the Crown in the High Court; if it is suggested that this is to be the remedy for the recovery of small sums of money owing under this insurance scheme; (2) if he is aware of the delay that is taking place in the settlement of claims under the Government air-raid insurance scheme and the dissatisfaction which this is causing to insured persons who have suffered damage to their houses and property; will he say why the Government appoint surveyors to examine the premises and agree to the amount of the damage, and then when they have agreed to the amount they throw over their own surveyors and send down another from London, who seeks to reopen the question; and if this procedure meets with his sanction?
The vast majority of claims under the Government insurance scheme are paid when the assessor's report is received at the Government Office without further question. In a small percentage of cases it has been necessary to instruct a second assessor to inspect the damage and advise the Government either because the first assessor has considered the amount of the claim excessive and has been unable to come to an agreement with the insured, or because the War Risks Office were not satisfied that the first assessor had given sufficient attention to the question of damage not due to the risks covered by the Government policy or because of some technical insurance difficulty. It is open to claimants who are dissatisfied with the amounts offered to them to make further representations to the War Risks Committee, and such representations are always carefully considered. If a settlement cannot be arrived at in this way, it is still open to the claimant to proceed by petition of right.
Arising out of that very unsatisfactory reply, may I ask why the Government appoint a surveyor, and, after his report, pay no attention to it, and say that a petition of right can be bought when the man's property has been destroyed?
Do not the Government desire to give compensation without putting the people to abnormal cost?
I am afraid I cannot add anything to the answer I have given. The Government is entitled to take necessary precautions.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries in the matter?
Certainly.
Does a Department of the right hon. Gentleman, after having appointed an umpire, refuse to take that umpire's decision?
Enemy Businesses (Patents and Trade Marks)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether trade marks and patents of enemy businesses that have been sold or are being wound up by the Government have been definitely cancelled or transferred at a price to the British purchaser; and, if not, has any step been taken to prevent enemy firms continuing to work such patents or trade marks in this country after the war?
As regards patents, the general rule adopted has been that if these are solely the property of the firm or business being wound up, the transference has been allowed to the bonâ fide purchaser, except where it was desirable to retain control of the patents in the public interest. Patents not so transferred are subject to the Temporary Rules Acts, and the Board have power to grant licences thereunder.
As regards trade marks, if there is no other objection transference has been allowed where the firm or concern being wound up is not a mere agency for a firm in any enemy territory, and the mark is not shared between English and alien enemy firms. The registration of some trade marks which were regarded as inherently bad has been voided. The after war treatment of enemy property and rights, including patents and trade marks, is under the consideration of the Government.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of introducing legislation, if necessary, to carry out the last part of the question, namely, "to prevent enemy firms continuing to work such patents or trade marks in this country after the War"?
I have said that is under consideration now.
British Dyes, Limited
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the capital of British Dyes, Limited, and also the aggregate capitals of all dye manufacturing firms in this country?
The issued share and loan capital of British Dyes, Limited, as at the 30th April, 1917, was £2,084,138. It is not possible to give the aggregate capitals of all the dye manufacturing firms in this country, as some of them are private firms, but in any case the nominal capital of the various firms engaged in the dye industry is no criterion of the actual capital employed.
asked what steps, if any, will be taken to increase the capital and production of British Dyes, Limited, and other dye works in this country, in view of the fact that five of the dye manufacturing firms in Germany show assets amounting in the aggregate to upwards of £35,000,000, including cash resources of approximately £10,000,000?
The Board of Trade have at present under consideration the whole question of increasing the production of dyes in this country, and considerable progress has already been made in this direction. I would point out that the assets of the five German firms referred to include those of their general chemical businesses, and no information is available as to what proportion is allocated to actual dye manufacturing.
Coal Supply
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he has seen a communication from the Wexford Trades and Labour Council stating that according to the Coal Controller the price of coal at the pit should not exceed pre-war prices more than 7s. or 8s. per ton, whereas the people in Wexford have to pay 30s. per ton more; and if he will say where the extra sum of 22s. goes to, and if anything can be done to ease the prices of coal on the poor?
The price of coal at the pit's mouth should be 6s. 6d. per ton above the pre war price (or 9s. per ton in the case of coal from collieries in South Wales and Monmouth and the Forest of Dean, from which a considerable portion of supplies of coal for the South of Ireland is drawn), but increases in freights are largely responsible for increased prices of seaborne coal. The Controller of Coal Mines hopes to be in a position very shortly to issue instructions to local authorities in Ireland to enable them to fix retail coal prices under the Retail Coal Prices Order, and I understand that the question of freights on coastwise traffic is receiving the attention of the Shipping Controller. In the meantime inquiry is being made into the position at Wexford.
Motor Cars
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the announcement made to owners and users of motor cars that motor-spirit licences are issued subject to the condition that the car, the owner, or his paid driver holds himself at the disposal of the military authorities is in addition to or cancels the conditions under which a car can be used for a journey to a railway station or a similar purpose where no other means of conveyance is reasonably available?
The condition that the holder of a motor-spirit licence" shall hold himself or his paid driver, and his motor car or cars at the disposal of the military authorities for use in the event of a national emergency" is in addition to the conditions under which motor spirit may be used in a motor car as authorised by Motor Spirit (Restriction) Order No. 2, 1917.
Had not the military those powers already?
Yes, they have always had them, and it is only to make them quite clear that they are now incorporated with the licence.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he will say what authority is to decide as to the legitimate use of a motor car under the Motor Spirit Restriction Order (No. 2), 1917, where a journey to a railway station or the fulfilment of necessary household affairs, other means of communication not being reasonably available, is put forward as a reason for the consumption of motor spirit and such use is held to contravene the spirit of the Order; (2) whether he is aware of the uncertainty caused by the Motor Restriction Order (No. 2), 1917, which prohibits the use of any petrol-driven vehicle except for certain specified purposes; and will the Board of Trade issue a more specific instruction defining more closely the right purposes for which a petrol-driven vehicle can now be used?
In the event of legal proceedings the proof of the purpose for which a motor vehicle is used lies upon the person using motor spirit on it, and the ultimate decision rests with the Court. The Order to which the hon. and gallant Member refers does, as he says, specify the purposes for which motor spirit may be used, and I doubt whether a more specific instruction is necessary at present.
Who in the first instance institutes proceedings, are they to be ordinary Police Court proceedings?
The police.
Police Court proceedings?
Yes.
Cement Exports
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state what was the selling price of cement in this country for 1915, 1916, and 1917, and what was the selling price for the same class of cement sent to Holland for the same period?
The average value of the cement exported to Holland as declared by the exporters was 33s. 5d. per ton in 1915; 44s. 9d. per ton in 1916; and 54s. 8d. per ton in the first nine months of 1917. It is not possible to state the corresponding values of exactly the same quality of cement in this country owing to the absence of information as to the qualities exported, but I understand that the price of the best Portland cement delivered in London was quoted at 38s. per ton from January to May, 1915, and that it rose in value till it reached 45s. to 48s. per ton at the end of the year, at which price it stood throughout 1916 and January and February of 1917. During the ensuing seven months the price quoted was 50s. to 53s. per ton.
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he has any official information showing that an excessive quantity of cement has been leaving this country for Rotterdam; and, if so, whether there is reason to suppose that any of this cement has been exported into Belgium by Holland for the use of the Germans in building blockhouses or for other warlike purposes?
I venture to refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch on the 24th October, in which I stated that no cement has been exported from the United Kingdom to Holland except under the most explicit guarantees against re-export. Consequently, there is no reason to suppose that any of it has found its way to Germany or Belgium. It can hardly be said that an excessive quantity of cement has left this country for Rotterdam—the quantity during the nine months ending September being about 41,000 tons, whereas the Dutch pre-war imports of cement from all sources for the years 1911, 1912, and 1913 averaged over 514,000 tons a year, most of which came from Germany and Belgium. Germany is still by far the largest exporter of cement to Holland, but she has been unable to maintain her full export trade this year, and an increased part of the Dutch demand has come to this country.
Is there any truth in the statement that Dutch statistics referring to sand and gravel are untrustworthy?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman must give notice of that question.
Is it not a fact that 23,000 tons of cement were exported to Holland in August and September, or in the last few months, and, having regard to the answer by the Undersecretary for Foreign Affairs, is it not the fact that in spite of our belief that no licences are being granted for cement that in the last week two ships have been loaded for Holland near the Tower Bridge?
I understand that the two ships referred to were loaded under licence granted before the issue of the Order in Council.
Is it not the case that owing to the export of sand and gravel from Holland to Germany we have stopped the commercial cables between this country and Holland: why did we stop them if there was no re-export?
I do not think that has anything to do with the question of cement. We have stopped the commercial cables between Holland and this country in consequence of the transit of sand and gravel from Germany to Belgium over Dutch waters.
Is it not the case that if we are sending cement to Holland which they had previously bought from Germany, and cannot buy now, we are helping Germany?
If the hon. Gentleman will refer to the answer I have given, he will see that I mentioned that the imports into Holland at present are coming principally from Germany.
Is it not the fact that a far greater amount of cement is entering Holland from Germany than from this country; is it not the fact that German cement is rubbish; and that it is desirable to have British cement to make anything like good concrete foundations?
I have no information about that.
Have we stopped all export of cement from this country to Holland?
At the present time no licences are being granted for export.
Are two ships being loaded to go?
They are loading in respect of licences granted before the issue of the Order in Council.
Will anything be done to revoke the licences?
The hon. Membermust give notice of that question.
Alsace-Lorraine
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been called to a statement made by the French Premier on 19th October that the United States had made a declaration that they would stand by France until France had disannexed Alsace-Lorraine; and if the British Government have any information on this subject?
I have read M. PainleveÉ's statement as reported in the French "Journal Officiel." I have no information beyond this.
Has the right hon. Gentleman no information that the United States Government take the same view?
No, Sir; I have no information on this subject.
Hay
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he is aware that there is now a difficulty in buying hay from the recognised dealers, especially felt by small carters and others, who can only buy limited quantities; whether this is due to delay on the part of the military authorities in releasing hay or to an attempt to establish direct sales between producer and consumer; and whether he will endeavour to remedy this state of affairs?
A large quantity of hay has already been released by the War Office to meet civilian requirements, and any difficulty that may be experienced by consumers in getting it would be due to the general shortage of labour, and to the shortage of railway trucks to transport the hay to the centre at which it is required. A producer is at liberty to sell released hay direct to the consumer, and the Board know of no reason why such direct sales should have the effect of curtailing supplies. If the hon. Baronet has any specific cases of difficulty in mind I shall be very glad to know of them, and will do my best to get them looked into promptly.
School Children (Attendance)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he will issue a White Paper containing the numbers of all children of school age released from school attendance since the outbreak of War, in continuation of the Returns issued last year?
I am doubtful whether the last Return of the 16th October, 1916, which was only practicable because it was strictly limited in scope, has served any purpose which would justify its repetition at the present time, especially as the general position is more complicated than it was last year. I do not, however, intend to overlook the educational claims of these children, and I have no doubt that a complete Return of this kind will be necessary later on.
Would not the preparation and publication of such returns enable us to judge as to the number of children whose education has been prematurely interrupted, and for whom provision has been specially made?
Certainly.
British Museum
asked the President of the Board of Education, whether his attention has been called to the increasing loss to education through the closing of the British Museum and other similar institutions; and whether he proposes to take any action in view of the prolongation of the War?
The Board of Education have no responsibility for the British Museum. A large part of the Victoria and Albert Museum is still open, in spite of the removal of the Board's offices to that building, and the Science Museum is open to students and the Geological Museum to inquiries on week-days. I, of course, deplore the necessity which led the Government in January, 1916, to restrict the use of such institutions, but I do not think the matter can be dealt with Departmentally.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there are any museums open in Germany?
I am afraid I am unable to say that.
Having regard to the prolongation of the War, will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the proper authority with regard to the reopening of educational museums and institutions which have been closed?
Munition Workers
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that in Birmingham the homes of munitions workers who have been absent from their work are visited by the Birmingham police; whether he can state at whose instigation this action is taken; and whether steps have been taken to have it stopped?
My right hon. Friend's attention had not previously been drawn to this matter. As a result of my hon. Friend's question, inquiries have been made, and I find that the Ministry of Munitions has not instigated the action referred to. From a report which has been sent me, it appears that the practice has now been stopped, nor have I any official information as to who was responsible.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that a number of Irishmen, the majority of whom belong to South Wexford, are engaged in making munitions of war in Cheshire, and that they have been refused permission to visit their homes, although English, Scotch, Welsh, and Manxmen are freely permitted to do so; and, seeing that many of these Irishmen are anxious to visit their homes at Christmas, if he will promise them leave of absence for a few days?
I am not aware of the circumstances to which the hon. Member refers, but if he will inform me of the names of the factory or factories in question I shall be prepared immediately to make inquiries.
Surveyor of Taxes (Clerks)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether the claim of clerks to surveyors of taxes to be allowed to count service prior to 1908 for superannuation purposes was recently submitted by the Board of Inland Revenue for favourable consideration by the Treasury; whether the claim was refused and, if so, on what grounds the refusal was based; whether, having regard to the precedents existing in the cases of the Customs' boatmen and women typists, and the statement of the Chairman of the Inland Revenue Board before, the Royal Commission in 1913 that the clerks' claim under this head had the complete sympathy of the Board, also to the fact that Clause 3 of the Superannuation Act, 1887, permits superannuation to be calculated on the basis of the total number of years of continuous service in the same capacity though only part thereof was established service; and, in view of the small expense which will be entailed during the next ten years, will steps be taken to secure this concession to the clerks' concerned?
The claim in question was considered and rejected in the present year. The Treasury cannot depart from the well-established principle which precludes the reckoning of service which is not rendered to Government as such for the purposes of the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to 1914. Accordingly unestablished service rendered by persons in the employment not of the Board of Inland Revenue, but of surveyors of taxes, is not reckonable under Section 3 of the Act of 1887 under any circumstances.
War Savings (Albert Hall Meeting)
asked what was the total cost of the War Savings meeting held at the Albert Hall on Monday last, 22nd October?
The approximate expenditure on the meeting was £220. In addition, there will be paid, if claimed, the out-of-pocket expenses of the unpaid officials of local war savings committees who were invited to attend. Many of these gentleman also attended special conferences held the same evening and the next day.
Can the hon. Gentleman tell us the number of claims (with amount) that have been settled up to the present?
I gather from this answer that none, as yet, have been paid; but if the hon. Gentleman will put down a question, I shall be glad to answer it.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that to run any sort of meeting at the Albert Hall costs £100; how, then, does it cost the Coalition Government £220?
I shall be glad to consult my hon. Friend on the subject.
Dr. Markel
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if the instructions issued by one of his predecessors to the divisional police in Kensington to the effect that they were not to watch or report on Dr. Markel, who lives in Queen's Gate Terrace, have been cancelled; if so, will he give the date; and has Dr. Markel been interned?
I cannot find that any such instructions were given. Dr. Markel is a British subject, having been naturalised in 1889, and is not interned.
I beg to give notice that I shall raise this subject of enemy aliens on the Vote of Credit.
Military Service
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Home Secretary if he is in a position to give the House the result of his inquiry concerning the editing and publishing by the conscientious objectors at Prince town of a journal called the "News Sheet" expressly designed for disseminating their anti-social views; and what steps it is proposed to take in the matter?
I have now seen a copy of this news sheet which contains propaganda. The circulation of the paper will be prohibited.
asked the Home Secretary what description of work is performed by the conscientious objectors in the settlement at Dartmoor; and whether he is satisfied that the work is of national importance and that these men are working satisfactorily?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Plymouth on 9th May last. The work is for the most part agricultural, and if efficiently carried out is of national importance. Most of the men still at Dartmoor are working satisfactorily.
Is it not a fact that a large number of these men are engaged in making roads which are of no consequence whatsoever? Could not these men be more usefully employed in South Africa, Salonika, Mesopotamia, or some other places?
I should be glad to see them used in those countries. Most of the work is not road-making, but agricultural work, reclamation of land and cultivation. Those who are making roads are presumably making roads which are of use.
No, Sir.
asked what is the ration allowance provided for the conscientious objectors at Dartmoor?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for Plymouth on the 9th May last. No alteration in diet has been made since that date.
asked whether, considering that there are conscientious objectors working at the present time in the quarries at Calais and in other places in France, there is any objection to sending the conscientious objectors now at Dartmoor to join them?
I understand that the men now working in France to whom the hon. and gallant Member refers are men in the Non-Combatant Corps. That is not the case with the men employed under the Committee on Employment of Conscientious Objectors, who refuse non-combatant duty.
Questions
Enemy Aliens
asked the Home Secretary what is the known number of alien enemies still uninterned in this country; how many have been interned in the last three months; and how many have been released from internment in the last six months?
The number of male Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, Bulgarians and Turks who have been exempted from internment or repatriation on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee, and are still residing in this country, is 13,183. A large proportion of these are of friendly race, though technically alien enemies. The number interned in the last three months is about forty. During the same period, apart from those prisoners (mostly Austrians) who have been released on conditional licence to do agricultural work, thirty have been released for other reasons—such as men of friendly nationality wishing to serve in the British Army, men whose sons had done good service in the Army, and men released on medical grounds.
Does "this country" mean United Kingdom or Great Britain?
United Kingdom.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the 13,000 represents the whole of the interned aliens in this country? [An HON. MEMBER: "Uninterned!"]
Uninterned; there are many more interned.
Are we to understand that it does not include women and children, and that besides 13,000 males there are also women and children in larger number?
I said in my answer male aliens. It does not include women and children.
Can the Home Secretary, or anyone in the Home Office or elsewhere, answer for the loyalty of the 13,000 uninterned?
It would be difficult to do that. All these men have been exempted in former years after inquiry by the Advisory Committee. I have from time to time revised the list and interned some of them. There still remain a very large number.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many of that number have been guaranteed by prominent politicians?
I have no knowledge.
I will put down a question.
Why not send them to Holland with the cement?
asked the Home Secretary how many persons, not being enemy aliens, are at present interned under Regulation 14 B of the Defence of the Realm Act?
One hundred and twenty-three.
asked whether the method adopted in the case of the Croat-Slav Palcic with a view to predispose him to enlist in the British Army is being officially and generally adopted in regard to all alien enemy subjects belonging to disaffected races under enemy rule who are males and of military age; whether he can state on what ground it has been thought necessary to intern Palcic while ordinary German and Austrian subjects, being males of military age, are still allowed to be at large in Dublin; whether he is aware that soon after the outbreak of the War he left his then employer and has since carried on the same class of business with success, and if any representations or allegations were made to the authorities regarding him prior to his internment by any person or persons with whom he was competing in trade or business; and whether the policeman who falsely represented to Palcic that he was liable to be conscripted did so with the sanction of the military authorities or of the Home Secretary; and, if not, whether this policeman is still retained in the police force?
The first two parts of this question were fully answered by me on the 24th and 25th instant. The answer to the third part is in the negative. As to the fourth part, the instructions to the police were that Palcic's attention should be called to the fact that he was eligible for service in a Labour Battalion. He was fully aware that he was not liable to conscription.
Is the right hon. Gentleman responsible for ordinary German and Austrian subjects of military age being at large in Dublin?
That is not the fact.
asked whether Bernhard Wingfield now runs a munition factory at West Drayton; whether this man was a German just before the War; whether his name was then Wiesengrund; whether he now manufactures a powder used in explosives; and, if so, whether he is to be allowed to retain his present position?
I am informed that this man is managing director of the Power Plant Company, which is engaged on the manufacture of munitions, but not of a powder used in explosives, as suggested. He was naturalised in April, 1914, in the name mentioned. Investigations which have been made from time to time show nothing to his discredit.
Is it not a fact that this firm used to manufacture shells, and they were so defective that the contract was cancelled; and is it not a fact that this man is known to be a German, that the employés jeer at him and will not work for him properly for that reason?
I am afraid that the hon. Member knows more about this firm than I do. I have answered the hon. Member's question, but if he will give me any further facts I will promise to look into them.
Is it not the right hon. Gentleman's business to find out? What is he paid for?
I can only intern British subjects on the ground of some improper conduct on their part. If I have the least reason to suspect improper conduct on their part dangerous to the State I do not hesitate to intern them.
Censorship (Private Correspondence)
asked the Home Secretary (1) what number of officials are employed in the work of opening, examining, photographing, and resticking private correspondence; how many of these officials are of military rank and how many civilians; what other duties are entrusted to this Department; (2) how many warrants for the opening of private correspondence he has signed during his term of office; and whether the correspondence of any Members of Parliament or of any trade union leaders have been officially tampered with by these means during that period?
If the hon. Member refers to the postal censorship, that is a large Department chiefly engaged in the examination of foreign correspondence and under the control of the War Office. If he refers to the examination of the correspondence of enemy agents or of persons suspected of furnishing information directly or indirectly to the enemy, I cannot answer his questions. To give information during the War as to the exercise of these powers might defeat the object in view, which is to prevent assistance being given to the enemy.
Cannot the righthon. Gentleman state approximately the number of warrants issued allowing private letters in English correspondence to be opened?
I should prefer not to give any details.
May I ask whether correspondence of Members of Parliament has any special privilege in the matter?
Not as I understand the matter.
How many Russian Jews are in this Department and how many are of military age?
I believe there are none under the Home Office. As to the staff employed under the War Office, I have, of course, no knowledge.
Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the right hon. Gentleman's reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the question on the Adjournment to-night.
British Newspapers (Subsidies)
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the Bolo revelations in France, which have disclosed the fact that money derived from German sources has been used to subsidise newspapers of a professedly patriotic character; and whether, in view of these disclosures, he has taken any steps to ascertain whether British newspapers, particularly those belonging to the Harmsworth and Hulton syndicates, which propagate a similar policy to that carried out by the German subsidised French Press, are being similarly subsidised?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As to the second part, we are on the lookout for German influence in all its forms, but it is not in the newspapers specially referred to in this question that it is likely to be found.
But do not the newspapers in question represent in this country exactly the same type of newspapers that received German money elsewhere?
I do not believe so.
Is it not the case, anyhow, that the Government would not dare to touch a newspaper owned by Lord Northcliffe?
That is not the case. I should touch any newspaper which I suspected of being so influenced.
"Workers' Dreadnought" (Seizure)
asked the Home Secretary for what reason Inspector MacLean and other members of the police force visited the premises of the Black-friars Press on 4th October and ordered that the type employed in the printing of a journal called the "Workers' Dreadnought" must be melted down and everything connected with the paper destroyed; whether the printer was asked to sign an undertaking not to print any further issues of the "Workers' Dreadnought," and was told that unless this undertaking was given the whole of the machinery of the press would be dismantled there and then; whether the manager of the press was given an opportunity to consult his directors; whether he signed an undertaking; by what authority the police acted in this manner; and by what right and authority they demanded an undertaking not to print further issues of the newspaper?
The police acted in pursuance of a warrant issued by the competent military authority under Defence of the Realm Regulation 51. Under that Regulation any type or plant used or capable of being used for the publication of the newspaper in question was liable to be seized and destroyed, but upon the manager causing the type to be melted down and voluntarily giving an undertaking not to print any further issues of the paper the plant was allowed to remain. No request was made by the manager to be allowed to consult his directors.
Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that part of the question which suggests that the reason why this undertaking was signed by the manager was owing to the threat that the whole of the plant would be broken up if that were not done?
The whole of the plant used in printing this very objectionable number of the paper was liable to be seized. The manager requested that it might not be seized, and offered not to print the paper in future.
Is it not the fact that by seizing the plant rather than prosecuting the paper the Government avoid the necessity of fighting the case in open Court, and is not this action of the Government due to the fact that the last case under the Defence of the Realm Act was lost?
No, Sir; not at all. If we do not seize the paper until after a prosecution it is too late, because the paper is published Therefore, the right course is to seize the paper and to leave them the remedy if we have wrongly seized it.
Is it not a fact that this paper is now being printed elsewhere, and the only effect, therefore, of the action of the police is to prevent this particular firm from having the job of printing the newspaper; and, further, is it not a fact that this National Labour Press in Manchester had a successful action against the military and police under circumstances of a precisely similar character?
The paper may be printed elsewhere, but we seized this paper because of a particular offending article, and if the same offence is committed elsewhere the paper will be seized.
Was not the Government, by the Defence of the Realm Act, given power to prosecute papers, and why are they choosing a method which will avoid proceedings in open Court?
Aliens Restriction Order
asked the Home Secretary whether a deportation order has been issued against Mrs. Luft, a British-born woman married to a German; if so, for what reason; whether she and her husband have been ordered to leave the country at once, leaving behind them two daughters, one only thirteen years of age; whether Mrs. Luft has a son serving in the British Army; by what authority the Home Office ordered the deportation of British women without trial; and whether this deportation order is to be carried out?
No deportation order has yet been issued in this case. Mr. Luft, a German, suffering from locomotor ataxy, applied for and was given a permit to return to Germany, and on information in my possession I thought it undesirable that his wife who, though British-born, is reported to be strongly pro-German, should remain in this country. I, therefore, caused her to be informed at the end of August last that she must accompany him and that if she failed to do so a deportation order would be made against her. Recently, as Mrs. Luft has been so badly advised as not to comply with this instruction, the warning has been repeated. I see no reason for altering the decision. The deportation order would be made under the powers conferred on me by Article 12 of the Aliens Restriction Order. I understand that arrangements have been made for the two daughters, one of whom is earning her own living, to remain in this country. The son, a British subject, who endeavoured to avoid military service, was arrested and is, serving in a non-combatant unit.
Assault Case, Hereford
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the case of Elsie Frances Abel who, on 15th October, was sentenced to one month's imprisonment at the Guildhall, Hereford, for assault alleged to have been committed in the street during the excitement of some industrial trouble; whether he is aware that this work girl maintains her innocence and that the evidence was in some respects unsatisfactory and contradictory, and that identification was difficult as the alleged assault took place after dark; whether he knows that this girl, who has borne an excellent character as a worker, displayed conspicuous bravery on the occasion of an outbreak of fire in the factory by returning to her section, plugging many shells, and closing the windows, thus helping to prevent the danger of serious explosion; and whether, in view of all the circumstances, he can see his way to take any action with respect to the sentence?
I am making inquiries about this case.
Factory Acts (Employment of Women)
asked whether the general Order issued by the late Home Secretary relaxing the limitations imposed by the Factory Acts on the hours of employment of women and young persons is still in force; and, if so, whether he will now, in the interest of these persons, consider the advisability of withdrawing this Order which allows female young persons of sixteen years of age and boys of fourteen, subject to the approval of the superintending inspector of factories, to be employed on twelve-hour night shifts and also boys of fourteen to work overtime to the amount of fourteen hours per diem on three days of the week?
The general Order for munition works to which the Noble Lord refers is still in force, but its provisions are at present under review by the Home Office and Ministry of Munitions, and the points to Which he draws attention are receiving consideration.
"Industrial Workers of the World Association."
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the offices of an association called the "Industrial Workers of the World" in America were raided by the police there and the leaders arrested; that plans were found for the wholesale destruction of crops, machinery, and factories; that this association was found to have the same objects in Australia; that President Wilson in America and Mr. Hughes in Australia are energetically stamping out this dangerous association; and whether, as it has now been revived in London and branches formed in other towns, he will take steps to act in the same way as President Wilson and Mr. Hughes?
I am aware of the activities of this association in America and Australia. An attempt has been made to establish a branch in this country, but it has little or no support. All necessary action has been and will be taken.
Does the right hon. Gentleman know whether or not they have got a place in London from which they work, and is it not a fact that they have their association and friends in various towns in this country? Is that not a fact? Shall I give the right hon. Gentleman private information of the address in London?
I know all about the association in England. It has little or practically no support, and unless the hon. and gallant Gentleman gives it further advertisement it will have none.
Prison Diet
asked whether, in view of the fact that the prison diet in force from 1901 to 1917 merely provided enough food to maintain health without allowing needless surplus, and that the present reduced diet is lower in scale than that in force in military prisons, steps, will be taken to bring the present civil prisoners' scale of diet up to the level of the diet of military detention barracks?
The answer is in the negative. The diet in civil prisons cannot properly be compared with that allowed in military detention barracks, where the prisoners have to perform arduous physical exercise in addition to their industrial work; but, in fact, the reports received from civil prisons show that the new dietary meets all reasonable needs, and the health of the prisoners generally has been well maintained.
Sailors and Soldiers (Pay)
asked the Prime Minister when he expects to be in a position to report the result of the reference back to the War Cabinet sub-Committee of the request made by the Joint Committee of the House of Lords, the House of Commons, and the General Federation of Trade Unions, for increases in the pay of the sailor and the soldier, particularly in respect of the able seaman, the stoker in the Navy, the private in the Marines, and the private in the Army?
This matter is receiving the active attention of the War Cabinet Committee, and I hope to be in a position to announce the decision of the Government next week.
Norwegian Convoy Loss
asked the Prime Minister the nature of the inquiry which is to be made into the loss of the Norwegian convoy on 17th October; and whether it will be a court-martial on oath, a Court of Inquiry not on oath, or whether it will be a Special Court with power to call for all papers bearing on the subject of the Norwegian convoy system which have been in the possession of the Admiralty?
The usual court martial on oath will be held into the loss of the destroyers. The inquiry of the Admiralty into the matter of the attack on the convoy was presided over by myself. It was attended by the members of the Board concerned, together with the officers dealing with the matter in question. The Commander-in-Chief, Grand Fleet, also attended. All relevant matters were discussed.
Can the right hon. Gentleman make a statement as to the conclusions of the Court of Inquiry, and has the court-martial to consider the conduct of the crews of the two destroyers?
The court-martial will consider the matters referred to them by the Commander-in-Chief. As regards the inquiry held at the Admiralty, I hope to give whatever information can be given in the public interest when I make my statement.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider his own responsibility in this matter if he presided over this inquiry?
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state the terms of reference for the inquiry into the loss of the Norwegian convoy, and the name and rank of the officer presiding over the deliberations of the inquiry?
I can only refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs on Tuesday last.
That does not give the terms of reference to the court martial. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that prior to this War every court-martial was held in public and now we get not the slightest information of any sort?
I understand that during the War no courts martial have been made public. After the result of this court-martial has been received, if it is thought desirable to give further information, it will be given.
asked the Prime Minister whether the War Cabinet has ascertained the time when the report was received that the German raiders were at sea; how long was this before the actual attack at 7 a.m. on 17th October; and, in view of the fact that all naval movements were controlled by Admiralty wireless, whether the inquiry will be able to pronounce judgment on the Admiralty arrangements?
With reference to the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question, I hope to deal with this subject in the course of my statement on the Vote of Credit on Thursday next. As regards the second part of the question, I can only state that the assumption that all naval movements were controlled by Admiralty wireless is entirely incorrect. The Admiralty did not exercise any such control.
Propaganda Policy
asked whether the right hon. Member for Trinity College is controlling the propaganda policy of the Government; if so whether he is acting in close co-operation with our Allies; whether such co-operation is carried on through the channels of the Foreign Office or otherwise; and whether the work of Colonel John Buchan and of the Right Hon. C. F. G. Masterman is now directed by the right hon. Member for Trinity College?
asked what are the special duties and powers assigned to the right hon. Gentleman the Senior Member for the University of Dublin in connection with his office of Controller of Propaganda and Publication?
Sir Edward Carson has been asked, as a member of the War Cabinet, to undertake the general supervision for the Cabinet of the matters referred to in these questions.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not give any more accurate or specific information of what the right hon. Gentleman's province is, what his special powers are, and of what has he control?
My right hon. Friend's duty is to supervise on behalf of the Cabinet the work of propaganda in the various Departments.
Has he control of the censorship?
No; certainly not. As the hon. Member knows, propaganda work has during the whole course of the War been conducted by various authorities and my right hon. Friend has undertaken the duty of co-ordinating the work of those Departments to prevent overlapping.
Is it the case that the duty of the right hon. Gentleman is to consider reports, sent to him by secret spies paid by the Government, of ordinary speeches made by Members of this House?
It is part of his duty to consider the general question of propaganda in this country.
Is there any reference to the Foreign Office or is it a Department working independently of the Foreign Office; for instance, if questions arise of importance, are we to address them to the right hon. Gentleman or to the Foreign Office?
The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative. I have already said that this work is being done by various Departments, including the Foreign Office, and my right hon. Friend's duty is simply to supervise and co-ordinate the work and report to the Government.
Are the paragraphs sent out to the Press with the compliments of the hon. Member for Linlithgow, expressing concern at the health of the ex-Prime Minister, issued under the authority of the right hon. Gentleman?
I do not think the subject to which the hon. Gentleman refers, and of which I know nothing, comes under propaganda work.
Is it part of the duty of the right hon. Gentleman to circulate information about the geography of the seat of war?
If he thinks it desirable, he will make that suggestion to the Department concerned.
Terms of Settlement
asked the Prime Minister whether the Department responsible for the preparation of material affecting the terms of settlement is the Foreign Office, the War Cabinet secretariat, or the Prime Minister's secretariat?
The Department concerned is the Foreign Office, under the direction of the War Cabinet, and in consultation with other Government Departments.
Has co-ordination been fully provided for, so that a maximum of efficiency is secured at a minimum of waste and labour?
That was our object, and I think it has been attained.
Naturalisation Laws
asked the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill this Session for the reform of our naturalisation laws?
It is not possible at present to fix any date for the introduction of this Bill, the draft of which is still under the consideration of the Dominions.
Will the Government introduce legislation upon the very urgent question of taking power to revoke certificates of naturalisation which have been improperly granted to Germans and others in the past?
As I have already informed the House, this subject has been submitted to the Dominions, and until we know what they think it is undesirable to take any steps in the matter.
Is not that a matter on which information could be very easily obtained and legislation enacted?
I do not profess to have any personal knowledge of the matter, but I am informed that this question does concern the Dominions, who are all affected.
War Aims
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the arrangements sanctioned by the Russian Government for a member of the executive of the Workmen's and Soldiers' Council of Delegates to attend the meeting of the Allied Powers to discuss war aims; and whether the British Government are intending to make any corresponding arrangement for the direct representation of British labour?
As far as I am aware, the approaching Conference is summoned not to consider the aims of the War, but the conduct of the War. The question, therefore, of the hon. Member hardly seems to arise.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the impression in Russia is exactly the opposite, as the Soviet has been passing resolutions, and is still discussing the question, without apparently any hint from its own Government, which is in touch with it, that the Allies' aims are not going to be discussed?
I am sorry I do not know what is the impression in Russia, but I have already informed the House that this Conference is intended to consider the prosecution of the War, and not war aims.
How comes it, then, that an answer was given to me the other day that this Conference was probably going to be held, when I stated in my question that it was being held in order to discuss the Allies' war aims?
I do not know to what answer the hon. Gentleman refers. Perhaps he had better put down a question to the Minister who gave it.
Is it a fact that every member from the Soviet in Petrograd has given consent to a Governmental Conference, and is it not a fact that Mr. Skoheloff is sent not as a member of the Soviet but as an actual member of the Government?
I am afraid that I am not in a position to give a definite answer.
It is so.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the speech by General Smuts in which he is reported to have said that he did not think it worth while to pursue the War until we had got rid of the Kaiser; whether this represents the considered opinion of the War Cabinet; and whether it means the abandonment of the policy of no peace with the Hohenzollerns?
I do not think that it would be right to answer any question dealing with possible terms of peace.
When General Smuts speaks in public, does he speak on his own or does he represent the views of the Cabinet?
He speaks on exactly the same footing as any other Minister.
Did not the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs last summer specifically repudiate that as of the British war aims?
Russia (British Assistance)
asked the Prime Minister why no assistance has been rendered by the British or American Navies to Russia against the German naval attack in the Baltic; whether repeated requests for such assistance were sent to the British Government by Russia; and whether it is the desire and intention of the British Government to render all assistance possible to Russia?
The hon. Member may rest assured that everything the Allied Navies can do to assist the Allied cause, whether in the Baltic or elsewhere, is being done and will be done.
Western Front, (Commander-In-Chief of Allied Forces)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the victories of the Allied armies in France and Flanders, he will now say who is the generalissimo commanding all the forces of the Allies on this front?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to a similar question put by him on 12th June.
In view of the Motion which is to be brought up by the Prime Minister, is it not desirable that the country should know whose is the supreme mind and to whom we are so much indebted for the victories of our armies?
I can add nothing to the answer that I have given.
Is General Petain in supreme command?
Commercial Treaties
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have yet decided to denounce existing commercial treaties in order to be free to make new treaties after the War?
I am not yet in a position to make any statement.
Could the right hon. Gentleman say when he could inform the House?
As my hon. and gallant Friend knows, it is a very complicated question. I have told the House that this and other similar topics are under the consideration of the Cabinet. I cannot add anything to that statement.
Postal Service
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intends to extend the scheme of joint councils, as recommended in the Whitley Report, to the postal service as well as to private industry?
I cannot add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for West Leeds on the 23rd of October.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the necessity of the Government giving a good example in this matter? How can they expect employers of labour to combine and set up industrial councils if they do not set them a good example?
I quite recognise the force of what my hon. Friend says, but he probably overlooks the fact that the answer to which I have referred him states that the subject is being considered by the Postmaster-General.
Education Bill
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the discontent of the country because the Government have decided not to proceed with the Education Bill, and that demands are being made to hold a national conference to protest against the Government hanging up the Bill; and whether the Government will reconsider the matter?
It is not the case that the Government have decided not to proceed with the Education Bill, the urgency of which we fully recognise, but as to the possibility of proceeding with it this Session I can add nothing to the answer given to the hon. Member for North Somerset on the 19th instant.
Could the right hon. Gentleman state what are the grounds which have led him to believe that it is impossible to proceed with the Bill?
Very substantial grounds—want of time.
Has the Government considered the possibility of dealing with the non-controversial portions this Session and dealing with the administrative Clauses at a later Session?
Yes, I have discussed that question, among others, with the Minister for Education, and I think he agrees with me that if we cannot get the Bill through this Session it is not worth while attempting to deal with a part of it.
Are we to understand that it is not thought worth while to proceed with those parts of the Bill which are not included in the administrative Clauses, because that is a very serious statement?
I do not think it is very serious. The question is entirely one of time. If we thought it possible substantially to carry through an important portion of the Bill, we should be disposed to proceed with it.
Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of having the Second Reading in order to ascertain the measure of criticism and support?
I think—and I am convinced that the House agrees with me—that is quite unnecessary. The Debate on the First Reading shows clearly the amount of support which it would have, and if we had a Second Reading Debate without proceeding with the Bill it would simply be a waste of time.
"Boloism."
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of setting up a judicial tribunal to investigate "Boloism" since the War began?
The Government are not prepared to adopt my hon. Friend's proposal.
May I ask whether, in view of the recent speech of the Prime Minister, which referred specifically to Boloism, the Government are not going to do anything?
No; that was not the question.
It arises out of it.
The question was whether we would set up a judicial tribunal to deal with Boloism. The question is to identify and to get hold of Boloism.
Is the Government doing anything to investigate the matter, in view of the Prime Minister's speech?
Of course the Government are making every effort to trace everything of the kind.
Petroleum (Production) Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether he intends to proceed with the Petroleum (Production) Bill?
The Government have not had time to consider the subject, but if the hon. Member will put down a question on Thursday I hope to be in a position to answer it.
Will not the Government proceed with this important measure before next Thursday?
Certainly not; and, if the hon. Gentleman had paid attention to the business announced for this week, he would have known that in any case it would be impossible.
Floating Debt
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of the floating debt outstanding—that is, Treasury Bills, etc.; the basis on which this debt has been incurred both at home and abroad; the amount set aside for the Depreciation Fund of the 5 per Cent. War Loan since the issue of that Loan; and the amount issued to date of the National War Bonds?
The total amount of floating debt outstanding up to Saturday last was as follows:
With regard to the figure of £21,000,000 set aside for the Depreciation Fund, does it mean that the right hon. Gentleman is borrowing money which he is bound to repay in a few months or years, whereas had it not been for this provision it would not require to be repaid till 1949?
I think the meaning is quite plain, and the hon. Gentleman is quite capable of realising it.
Food Supplies
Sugar
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Sugar Commission has in the past regulated the retail price of sugar; whether it still regulates the price; and, if so, what is the present retail price at which sugar should be sold in London, and on what basis is it arrived at?
I have been asked to reply. The retail price of sugar, though not fixed by Statutory Order, has always been regulated in such a way as to leave only a reasonable margin of profit to all dealers concerned. Action is taken to prevent retailers from charging prices which appear to be unreasonable, having regard to the price at which sugar is sold by the Commission or by refiners working under the Commission to wholesale dealers, and the limits imposed by the Commission upon the profit charged by those dealers on their sales. On this basis, the retail prices which may reasonably be charged at the present time in London are: Cubes, 6½d.; granulated, Demerara, and yellow crystals, 5¾d.; Muscovado, pieces, and raw sugar, 5½d.; West Indian syrup sugar, 5¼d.; though it should be possible in some cases for prices to be charged lower than these by ¼d.
Was not an answer given on Thursday by the hon. Gentleman himself denying what he now states?
I do not think that answer denied what I have now stated.
It did.
Milk
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether a milk famine is threatened in the Winsford district of Cheshire owing to the action of the farmers in deliberately withholding supplies; whether he knows that they are demanding 7d. per quart instead of the fixed price of 5d. per quart laid down by the food control committee and sanctioned by his Department, and that they refuse to supply milk except on their own terms; and, in view of the legal penalties to which workmen who go on strike render themselves liable, whether he proposes to take action with respect to this strike of the farmers, which must have consequences for the health and life of the children of the district?
The Food Controller is informed that the difficulty in the Wins-ford district with regard to milk supplies has been partly caused by the fact that the food control committee has fixed a price for delivered milk which only allows a½d. per gallon above the producers' price for November to cover cost and profit of distribution, and that the producers, who are in most cases also retailers, allege that this is not a sufficient margin to cover the actual costs of distribution. The responsibility for fixing the price to be allowed for distribution rests on the food control committee, who in fixing such a price are enjoined by the Food Controller to satisfy themselves that the price fixed will not have the effect of diverting their milk supplies elsewhere. It is hoped that a satisfactory arrangement will be reached in negotiation between the committee and the distributors, but if such an agreement is not reached the Food Controller will take steps to secure that milk is available in the district at an equitable price.
Cheese
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if thousands of crates of Australian, Canadian, and New Zealand cheese are being kept in store until it is ruined, and until a portion of it is found to be unfit for human consumption; if the Board of Trade sent out a damaged cheese circular concerning the matter to a firm in London, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol, Newcastle-on-Tyne, and Glasgow, giving instructions as to what they should do with the ruined cheese which has been returned by retailers from all parts of the Kingdom; and whether he intends taking action in the matter to prevent good food being deliberately ruined by those who have charge of dealing with the Australian, Canadian, and New Zealand cheese?
My hon. Friend has requested me to reply to this question. There has been considerable delay in the shipment of New Zealand cheese and larger quantities than usual have had to be held there in cold store until steamers were available. On arrival of the early cargoes in the United Kingdom they were taken over by the War Office as Army stocks were depleted, and the quantities not required for immediate consumption were placed in store in reserve until it was certain that sufficient supplies were coming in regularly. The early issues of cheese for civilian consumption had thus been subjected to unusual conditions and naturally there was more shrinkage and loss of condition than in normal times. It is impossible to ensure that no cheese will arrive out of condition, but cargoes are dealt with promptly and are not held in store longer than is necessary to separate out the War Office supplies. "Damaged cheese" is cheese that in the opinion of the Board's experts could not fairly be retailed at 1s. 4d. per pound, and in order to prevent waste firms in various centres were appointed to deal with it. Only a very few tons out of a total of about 35,000 tons so far handled by the Board were found unfit for human consumption.
Is it not possible to use some of the buildings at Bristol that were put up for munitions work and have now been abandoned for the purposes of cold storage, instead of pulling the buildings down?
I should be glad to call my right hon. Friend's attention to this question.
Questions
Women's Army Auxiliary Corps
asked the Minister of Pensions whether the officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates in the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps are included in the Army pension scheme; and whether any provision is made for granting pensions to those who may be invalided out of the Army on account of injury or ill-health consequent upon their military service?
The members of the Corps are not included in any Army pension scheme. For sickness or injury in the United Kingdom they come under the National Health Insurance Act and the Workmen's Compensation Act. For injury or sickness specially attributable to service abroad they come under the scheme drawn up under the Injuries in War Compensation Act, 1914, Session 2. I shall be glad to give my Noble Friend a pamphlet giving all particulars.
Income Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is now in a position to state what allowances have been made under the Finance Act of 1916, Section 43, dealing with double Income Tax, with regard to income derived from each of the four following countries, namely, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and India; and, if not, by what date, approximately, this information is expected to be available?
The particulars desired by my hon. Friend are not available. I cannot under present conditions give any undertaking that it will be possible to furnish separate figures for the respective countries.
Calves (Railway Consignment)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the railway companies have revived the cruel practice obtaining many years ago of accepting calves for consignment by rail tied up in sacks or bags with their heads only, and not their legs also, protruding through such covering, with the result that many have died from cramp or strangulation; and whether he will take steps to ensure for these animals more humane treatment on the railways?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has forwarded to the Board of Trade a complaint on this subject which is being investigated.
New Members Sworn
Sir Auckland Campbell Geddes, K.C.B., for the County of Hants (Northern or Basingstoke Division).
Major the Hon. Arthur George Villiers Peel, for the County of Lincoln (Holland or Spalding Division).
Public Petitions Committee
Third Report brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Orders of the Day
Navy, Army, and Mercantile Marine
Thanks for War Services
I beg to move "That the thanks of this House be given to the officers; petty officers, and men of the Navy for their faithful watch upon the seas during more than three years of ceaseless danger and stress, while guarding our shores and protecting from the attacks of a barbarous foe the commerce upon which the victory of the Allied Cause depends.
"That the thanks of this House be given to the officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the British Armies in the field, and also to the women in the medical and other services auxiliary thereto, for their unfailing courage and endurance in defending the right, amid sufferings and hardships unparalleled in the history of war, and for their loyal readiness to continue the work to which they have set their hands until the liberty of the world is secure.
"That the thanks of this House be accorded to the gallant troops from the Dominions Overseas, from India, and from the Crown Colonies who have travelled many thousands of miles, to share with their comrades from the British Isles in the sacrifices and triumphs of the battlefield, and to take their full part in the struggle for human freedom.
"That the thanks of this House be accorded to the officers and men of the Mercantile Marine for the devotion to duty with which they have continued to carry the vital supplies to the Allies through seas infested with deadly perils.
"That this House doth acknowledge with grateful admiration the valour and devotion of those who have offered their lives in the service of their country, and tenders its sympathy to their relatives and friends in the sorrows they have sustained."
Even had I the leisure, which I certainly have not in these terrible times, especially in the anxiety of the last two or three days, I feel that I could not do justice to this great scheme. But the deeds which are referred to in the Resolution are so well known and have won universal admiration and gratitude, not merely from every Member of this House, but from every subject of His Majesty, that I feel that no words are necessary in order to commend it to the acceptance of any body of Britishers throughout the world.
Taking the first paragraph in the Resolution—that which refers to the British Navy—the enormous magnitude of our Army, the fact that it has representatives in millions of homes in the country, and the dazzling record of its great achievements may in some respects have obscured the service which the British Navy has rendered to this country and to its Allies. The British Navy is like one of those internal organs, essential to life, but of the existence of which we are not conscious until something goes wrong. The Navy is taken for granted. In this War the British Navy has been the anchor of the Allied cause. If it lost its hold, the hopes of the Alliance-would be shattered. To realise the power and might of the British Navy, and how essential a part it has played in this great struggle, one has only to imagine for a moment what would have happened, not if we had not the command of the sea at the beginning of the War, but if the British Navy had been defeated even a year ago, and the sceptre of the seas had been snatched by our foes. Our armies in France, in Mesopotamia, in Salonika, and in Egypt would have languished, and finally vanished for lack of support in men and material. France, deprived not merely of our support, but of the material assistance which the British Navy enables us still to get from abroad, would be unable probably to defend herself against the overwhelming hordes of the foe. Italy, deprived of coal for ammunition and of food, would have fallen a ready prey to her fierce and vindictive enemies, which she has not done yet, and will not do. Russia, cut off on the east and the west, would indeed have been defenceless. I have no hesitation in saying that but for the British Navy, overwhelming disaster would have fallen on the Allied cause. Prussia would have been the insolent mistress of Europe, and through Europe, of the world. Never in the whole of the affairs of the world has the British Navy been a more potent and a more beneficent influence in the affairs of men. What has it accomplished? In spite of hidden foes, as well as open attack, in spite of legitimate naval warfare and in spite of black piracy, it has preserved the highway of the seas for Britain and her Allies.
In order that the House may judge what that means, I would just give a few interesting figures of the numbers of men and the quantities of material which have been transported since the beginning of the War to the British Armies and to those of our Allies. Thirteen million men have crossed and recrossed the seas, 2,000,000 horses, 25,000,000 tons of explosives and supplies, 51,000,000 tons of coal and oil fuel for the use of our Fleet and our Armies and to meet the needs of our Allies; and the losses in men out of the whole of that 13,000,000 during these years of war have been only 3,500, 2,700 of these alone through the action of the enemy, and the remainder through the ordinary perils of the sea—this apart from the prodigious quantity of food and other materials, amounting in all to 130,000,000 tons, transported in British ships. This indeed has been a triumph for the great Navy.
4.0 P.M.
It is too early yet to summarise the effects of the blockade of the British Navy upon our foes—a blockade which would have been complete had we not left the gates of the Balkans unlocked and unguarded. As to our Grand Fleet, they have not had many opportunities such as those which built the fame of our Navy, but that is not their fault. On the contrary, it is the recognition of their merit. It has been due to no deficiency on their part, but to the enemy knowledge of their efficiency. Germany knows they are there, and so do we, and since the battle of Jutland they have never seen fit to challenge that Great Fleet, and it is the best proof that they do not trust the veracity of their own chroniclers that they have not yet challenged the Navy which they then claimed to have overcome.
As to the smaller craft of the Fleet, their work and peril never ends. They are numbered by the thousand, and their hardships and dangers are barely realised; but through their action security and plenty are enjoyed by the population of these Islands. They patrol the seas from the icy waters of the Arctic Ocean to the stormy floods of Magellan. There is not an ocean, a sea, a bay, a gulf—there is not an estuary used for commerce which is not patrolled by the ships of the British Navy. How dangerous a task it is the casualty lists proclaim, because in proportion to their numbers the dead are equal to those of the British Army. Through it all the command of the sea has been maintained. I am glad that in this Resolution special recognition is accorded to the officers and men of the Mercantile Marine. It is a great distinction for any civilian body to be placed in the same category as the soldiers of the British Army and the sailors of the British Navy, but the officers and men of the British Mercantile Marine have won that distinction. Seamanship at best is a comfortless and a cheerless calling. I remember that when I occupied the office which is now held by my right hon. Friend (Sir A. Stanley), as President of the Board of Trade, the concern of the Department at that time was the difficulty in getting men to engage in this avocation, and as the standard of living improved it was impossible almost to persuade men to pursue a trade so full of peril and so devoid of comfort. That was in time of peace. What is it now? During the War the strain, the hardship, the terror, the peril, have increased manifold. Piracy is more rampant and ruthless than it has ever been in the history of the world. This is a new terror added to those of the deep.
The risks of the navigator have increased in every direction. Lighthouses, which were there to warn the mariner against imminent peril, are, many of them, dark. They have to drive their ships full speed through fog and through storm. The ceaseless watch has a new terror, not merely of the day, but of the night. Their eyes spear the dark for objects hardly visible on the surface of the seas, even in sunlight, and yet life depends upon their observing those objects in time. Then when the blow comes from the invisible foe, they are faced with conditions which would make the stoutest heart pall. The mariner is left with the surging seas around him, scores of miles from a friendly shore. And yet among those who go down to the deep in ships there has not been found one man who refused to return. I have made inquiries, and I am told on all hands that the men return with greater alacrity than in times of peace. Men torpedoed twice, thrice, seven times, hardly wait for their papers before they return, because they realise that in these times their country cannot spare one man or one hour. This is no time to dwell upon the dark deeds of our foes on the sea; but they are all in the reckoning. What has struck me with regard to the sailors is this—that they have no fear of danger. There is not one of them who shirks it, but they abhor the degradation of seamanship involved in these actions, and the dishonour to the traditions of a noble calling. That is why the sailor steadfastly refuses to have any traffic with men who are guilty of such conduct, or of sanctioning it, until the stain is wiped out.
I would like to say a word about our fishermen. Their contribution has been a great one. Sixty per cent. of our fishermen are in the Naval Service. Their trawlers are engaged in some of the most perilous tasks that can be entrusted to sailors. There is mine-sweeping—a dangerous occupation often ending in disaster. The number of mines they have swept is incredible, and if they had not done this Britain would now have been blockaded by a ring of deadly machines anchored round our shores. But their services have not been confined to this work. You find their trawlers patrolling the seas everywhere, protecting ships, and not merely around the British Isles. You find these fishing trawlers in the Mediterranean. These men surely deserve the best thanks that we can accord them for the services which they have rendered.
I should like to give the House one or two illustrations of the way in which these fishermen have faced these new perils. Here is one case given to me by the Admiralty. Here is a trawler attacked by the gunfire of a German submarine. Though armed only with a three-pounder gun, and outranged by her opponents, she refused to haul down her flag, even when the skipper had both legs shot off, and most of the crew were killed or injured. "Throw the confidential books overboard, and throw me after them," said the skipper, and, refusing to leave his ship when the few survivors took to the boat, he went down with his trawler. There is another case of an armed trawler escorting a number of fishing vessels. Attacked by submarines, outranged, the main boom broken, the funnel down, the wheelhouse blown up, the steering gear disabled, many of the men killed, the ship sinking, they patched her up with canvas; she continued fighting, and when she ultimately goes down the fishing fleet is safe in port. These are not men trained for war. They are fishermen; but this is the spirit that has animated our sailors, whether in the Navy or in the Mercantile Marine or in our fishing fleets. Never have British sailors, whether in the Navy or in the auxiliary services, shown more grit. Never have they rendered greater service to their native land or to humanity. For their courage, for their resolution, for the service which they have rendered and for the resource they have shown, I invite the House in this Resolution to thank them—officers and men.
I come now to the part of the Resolution which deals with the Army. Our Expeditionary Force numbered at the beginning of the War 160,000 men. Our Expeditionary Forces to-day number over 3,000,000—probably the greatest feat of military organisation in the history of the world. It never could have been accomplished but for the heroism and self-sacrifice of the Old Army—the Old Army—the finest body of troops in the world at that time, more highly trained, more disciplined, more perfect in physique. It saved Europe. In the retreat from Mons it delayed overwhelming hordes of the enemy, and at the Marne helped to roll back the invader. But more than all, the great first battle of Ypres was one of the decisive battles of the world. With unparalleled tenacity and sacrifice, it held superior forces for weeks—held them finally. The enemy superior in numbers and material; our troops short of heavy artillery and ammunition, with no reserves. Every man was put in—Cavalrymen, cooks, drivers, servants, and through the individual efforts of officers and men, iron discipline, dogged determination, the Army held out to the last, and saved us from disaster.
By the end of November France was saved, and Europe; and there was hardly a man left out of the Old Army. One division went into battle 12,000 strong. It came out 2,000. Of 400 officers, only fifty were left—in one battle. The Old Army is the Army that gathered the spears of the Prussian legions into its breast, and in perishing saved Europe. No sacrifice in the history of the world has had greater results, and those seven divisions have a unique position in history, and in the annals of the British Army. Then after that came the dreary winter and spring of 1914 and 1915. Most of the old veterans gone! And here let me say a word for the Territorials who came to the rescue. Old Army gone; New Army not ready; and somebody had to occupy water-logged trenches. Somebody had to stand torrents of shot and shell from well-equipped artillery, with orders that only two or three shells could be spared for our guns. Somebody had to do that for months while the New Army was getting ready; and the Territorials fought with the ardour of recruits in their first charge; yea, and with the steadiness of veterans in their hundredth fight! And let me say one word here—and I am glad to say it— we owe a debt of gratitude to the man who created that organisation which came to the rescue of the Empire at such a critical hour.
Now we come to our New Army, who occupy the battle line from the German Ocean to the Persian Gulf. The raising and training of that Army was an unexampled feat, and will always be associated with the name, the great name, of Lord Kitchener. I could not even pretend to give a summary of their achievements. We have heard many descriptions of battles in narratives which we have read and heard, and all I can say is that it fills us with a sense of swelling pride that we should belong to the race which has produced such men. There has been nothing comparable to the sustained courage displayed by the British soldier in this War. In previous wars you had great, you had fierce, battles, which lasted for hours, not many of them lasting for days. Those have been the great examples in history; and then you had long intervals of marching and preparation. Now you have battles that last not for hours, not for days or for weeks, but battles that last for months. Never has British courage been put to so terrible a test; never has it so triumphantly endured it. When I read of the conditions under which our gallant soldiers fight, I marvel that the delicate and sensitive mechanism of the human nerve and the human mind can endure them without derangement. The campaigns of Stonewall Jackson fill us with admiration and with wonder. How that man of iron led his troops through the mire and the swamps of Virginia! But his troops were never called upon to lie for days and nights in morasses, under ceaseless thunderbolts from a powerful artillery, and then march into battle through an engulfing quagmire, under a hailstorm of machine-gun fire. That is what our troops have gone through.
They were confronted with the finest Army in the world—the men trained for years, the officers instructed and prepared for this hour. Our men, with a few months' training; our officers in the main taken from counting houses, factories, schools and colleges. Their generals, accustomed to handle scores and hundreds of thousands of men in great manœuvres, while ours at the best were afforded the opportunity of handling only a few thousands. And yet these men, with this training, with these scant opportunities, are bringing to defeat veteran armies, entrenched in formidable positions. We really owe a debt of the deepest thanks to this great Army. I can only barely refer to their achievements in other spheres. In Salonika they have had few opportunities for glory. They arrived too late to save Serbia, but they have faced the malaria of summer and the piercing cold of winter, and they have borne them all with spirit and good cheer, because no country has ever had more cheerful heroes than we have. In Mesopotamia there is a record of heroism—the way they endured the disasters of the earlier months, the brilliant way in which they retrieved those disasters, re-establishing British prestige throughout the East. In Africa, under most trying conditions of climate—everywhere—these men have behaved in a way which is worthy of the great country to which they belong, and of the record of the great Army in which they are serving.
The time has not yet come for singling out individuals. When the task is accomplished, when the issues are no longer in the balance, when we are able to appreciate values of work done, by the traditions of this House, individuals will be thanked and rewarded, and I shall only speak in passing—and I am sure the House will expect me to do so—in respect of two or three of the most conspicuous figures in the struggle. I think that I ought to say a word about the Commander-in-Chief of our Old Army, and of at least two of the New Army, who have had to fight in the most difficult conditions— General Sir Douglas Haig and General Maude. I do not feel competent myself to express opinions which are sufficiently valuable on the achievements of these great soldiers. Therefore, if the House will permit me, I will quote the authority of one of the most brilliant members of our Imperial General Staff in respect of these three great Generals. With regard to Lord French, he says:
Before I conclude what I have to say about the Army, I should like to say a word about the parts of the Empire which have contributed to this great Army. England has contributed 75 per cent. of the armies of the Empire. [An HON. MEMBER: "Great Britain!"] I mean England. [An HON. MEMBER: "And Scotland!"] I am coming to Scotland. But I want to say a word, first of all, about England—and I do so, not because England is not great enough to give, not merely her share, but more than her due share, to other nationalities in the Empire, but because it is necessary to dwell upon that fact, for the simple reason that our foes have been circulating the same old calumny about England—that she is fighting her battles with the help of others.
There never yet has been a time when that was less true than in this War. Seventy-five per cent. of the contribution in men, 75 per cent. of the contribution in loss, has fallen upon England. Scotland has—as it always has—done its due share. Ireland has made a distinguished contribution, and my country also. It is my pride—and I am entitled to make the boast—that in voluntary recruiting we just beat the record by a shade. Scotland came second, in the proportion of population, who voluntarily recruited for the Army.
I must say a word now about the Dominions. They have contributed between 700,000 and 800,000 men. What does that mean?—five times the number of our Expeditionary Force. And what a contribution! How well they have fought— the citizen armies! The ready and resourceful courage of the Canadians —how it saved France and the British Army at the second battle of Ypres. How, on the heights of Vimy, they swept the foe from the positions where they had defied the greatest armies of the Allies for two or three years. And then the men of the Southern Seas, of Australia and New Zealand—the dash and the tenacity which enabled them first to capture the precipitous rocks of Anzac, and to cling to them for months; to rush Poziéres and to hold Bullecourt; the men who came in smaller contingents from South Africa, clearing Delville Wood; and the noble sacrifices of the men of Newfoundland. I could not even give a catalogue of their achievements without detaining the House beyond the limits. And then there is India. How bravely—how loyally she has supported the British arms! The memory of the powerful aid which she willingly accorded in the hour of our trouble will not be forgotten after the War is over, and when the affairs of India come up for examination and for action. Then our Colonies throughout the world—how they have helped with the fighting men, how they helped in men and assisted us with labour. Never has the British Empire shown greater and more effective unity. It was regarded as a dream by many. Now it is a fact—a powerful fact, fashioning the history of the world and the destinies of men.
It would be invidious if I were to attempt to distinguish between the various arms of the Service—our splendid Infantry who have borne the brunt of the battle, our Cavalry, and our Artillery, who have lost more heavily, perhaps, in this War than in any war ever waged. The mere fact that we have got the Artillery is in itself an achievement. Who would have believed—when you thought it took years to train gunners—that in a few months we would turn out Artillery the precision of whose fire is at once the admiration and terror of the foe.
But, among all these, I may be permitted to mention one arm of the Service which has appeared for the first time in this great War—I mean the Air Service. I am sure the House would like special mention to be made of our Air Service. The heavens are their battlefield; they are the Cavalry of the clouds. High above the squalor and the mud, so high in the firmament that they are not visible from earth, they fight out the eternal issues of right and wrong. Their daily, yea, their nightly struggles are like the Miltonic conflict between the winged hosts of light and darkness. They fight the foe high up, and they fight him low down; they skim like armed swallows along the front, attacking men, in their flights, armed with rifle and with machine gun. They scatter Infantry on the march; they destroy convoys; they wreck trains. Every flight is a romance, every record is an epic. They are the knighthood of this War, without fear and without reproach. They recall the old legends of chivalry, not merely by daring individually, but by the Nobility of their spirit, and, among the multitudes of heroes, let us think of the chivalry of the air.
I should like to say one word about the Medical Service. I do not think we ought to pass by the chaplains in the Army. They have sustained their losses, and have done their duty manfully, courageously and tenderly. When you come to the Medical Service, the men and the women, they have never shown greater courage, knowledge and experience. Thousands of them have devoted themselves—devotion is the right word—to the curing of the wounded and the healing of the sick. Great consultants have given up princely incomes, and volunteered for this service. Wounds have been cured which before the War were regarded as fatal, and I may give an illustration— and only one illustration—of the services which they have rendered in saving life, not merely by their curing expedients, but by the precautions they have taken. In the South African War, I believe, 50,000 men died of typhoid. In France, out of our gigantic Army, during the whole three years of the War, only 3,000 have fallen victims to this disease. We owe thanks to the medical profession. They have suffered—hundreds have been killed, and many more hundreds wounded. We should also thank the women—our trained and untrained nurses—whose tenderness and care for the wounded have earned thanks from the lips of hundreds of thousands of poor men whose lives have been saved, and who have been spared much suffering through their tender ministration. They have not escaped perils. Many have been killed by shell-fire, many of them drowned in hospital ships, sunk with the sign of the Red Cross. We all owe them a debt of gratitude. If I have forgotten anyone I hope the House will excuse it. [An HON. MEMBER: "Army Service Corps!"] The Royal Army Medical Corps and the Army Service Corps were all in the firing line, and have suffered very severely. I put it to the House, if I have forgotten anybody, I have done it through inadvertence. It is, because during the anxiety of the last few days I have not been able to devote the time I otherwise feel I ought to have devoted to the preparation of a statement on so important a Resolution But I am perfectly certain my deficiency in this respect will be more than made up by my right hon. Friend who seconds the Resolution.
The last paragraph in the Resolution is one I must say a word about, and it will be brief. There are hundreds of thousands of sorrowing men and women in this land on account of the War. Their anguish is too deep to be expressed, or to be comforted by words; but, judging the multitudes whom I know not by those I do know, there is not a single one of them who would recall the valiant dead to life at the price of their country's dishonour. The example of these brave men who have fallen has enriched the life and exalted the purpose of our people. You cannot have 4,000,000 of men in any land who voluntarily sacrificed everything the world can offer them in obedience to a higher call without ennobling the country from which they sprang; and tine fallen, whilst they have illumined with a fresh lustro- the glory of their native land, have touched with a new dignity the households which they left for the battlefield. There will be millions who will come back, and live to tell children now unborn how a generation arose in England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, and in the ends of the earth, where men of our race dwell, who were willing to leave ease and comfort to face privation, torture, and death, to win protection for the weak and justice for the oppressed. There are hundreds of thousands who will never come back. For them, there will be for ages to come sacred memories in a myriad of homes of brave, chivalrous men, who gave up their young lives for justice, for right, for freedom in peril. This Resolution means that the greatest Empire on earth, through this House, thanks the living for the readiness with which they obeyed its summons, and for the gallantry with which they supported its behests. It also means that this great Empire, through this House, enters each home of the heroic dead, grasps the bereaved by the hand, and says, "The Empire owes you gratitude for your share of the sacrifice as well as for theirs, partakes in your pride for their valour, and in your grief for their fall."
This Resolution of thankful acknowledgment for the services both of the living and the dead requires, as the right hon. Gentleman said at the beginning of his speech, no words of advocacy or of appeal to commend it to the House. It might, indeed, be a more impressive, and, in the true sense, a more eloquent tribute if we were to pass it in silence. We are face to face in this War with acts and with emotions which are too large for speech. Everything in it—the issues at stake, the forces arrayed, the endurance of the people, the toll of losses, and the pain—everything is on a scale unexampled in the annals of man-kind. The commonplaces, whether of eulogy or of sympathy, even if they could be expressed, as they have been in days gone by with the art of Pericles or of Lincoln, seem to be meagre and dwarfed, and, indeed, hopelessly inadequate to so great a theme. What more can we say? As we witness month by month, and now year by year, the gradual unfolding of this vast panorama of heroism and suffering, it strikes us dumb with a sense at once overpowering and unutterable of admiration. We all feel here to-day that we should be departing, if not from the letter, at any rate from the spirit, of the wise precedent of our ancestors, and in some sense abdicating the duty of Parliament, if we did not from time to time convey the recognition and thanks of this House— the authentic mouthpiece of the nation— not only to our great generals and admirals—my right hon. Friend has mentioned the names of the generals, and we shall all join most heartily in the tribute he paid to them; may I add the names of two great admirals, Sir John Jellicoe and Sir David Beatty, who have with consummate skill directed our fortunes at sea—but also to our soldiers and sailors, our merchant seamen, our airmen, our doctors and nurses, our fellow countrymen and countrywomen enlisted in every department of war work, who from all quarters of the Empire have, by their ceaseless energy and unbounded sacrifice, ensured the victory of the Allies.
5.0 P.M.
Among all these comrades and fellow-combatants—for such they are—in the greatest of causes, we make no discrimination in the degree of our gratitude. It is by their united efforts and by their unextinguishable faith that the struggle has been and will be maintained till it ends, as we know it must end, in the enthronement of the sovereignty of right. Heavy indeed— as the last paragraph in this Resolution reminds us—heavy indeed is the tax in life and suffering which the Empire is called upon to pay. We have only to look round this House to recall the names and faces of colleagues whom the War has called away from us, and whom we shall never see again. Even in the past few weeks and since we last adjourned, may I be allowed to remind the House, we have lost one of the youngest and most loved of our Members, Francis Maclaren, cut off in a youth of radiant promise, still untarnished by disappointment, with clear and firm conviction, a faithful and loyal friend from whom those who knew him best knew how much there was in the coming years to be hoped for. He has gone, as so many of the most gifted both in talent and in character have gone, and to whom those of us whose days are further advanced looked with confidence to take up the burden of our national life, and to make its future worthy of its past. We who remain behind, impoverished by their loss, are yet enriched by their memory and their example. Let it not be said when the judgment of history comes to be recorded that they gave their lives in vain.
I am deeply conscious of the fact that no words of mine can add anything to the value of the noble tributes which have been paid to our soldiers and our sailors by the two right hon. Gentlemen who have spoken, and, therefore, I have not risen to make a speech. My object rather is to emphasise the fact that in what they have said these two right hon. Gentlemen have spoken for an absolutely unanimous House of Commons, and that the heart of every Member of this House, English, Scottish, Welsh, or Irish goes out to-day in pride, admiration, and gratitude to those gallant men who are fighting in the cause of civilisation and liberty in so many parts of the world, and in the deepest veneration for the memory of the dead. In addition to that perhaps it is as well on this occasion an Irish voice should be heard, and I think the House will agree that it is natural that my heart and my mind on this occasion should turn in a very special way to the Irish troops. These troops have by their constancy, their endurance, and their gallantry in every field of war shed a lustre upon their race. However torn by dissension or by misfortune their country may be at this moment, I believe that the heart of the Irish race to-day is filled with pride and with gratitude for their achievements. The old historic Irish regiments, who played their part in the battle of Ypres, to which allusion has been made, who played their part in the retreat to the Marne and in the return from the Marne, the old historic Irish regiments who were the first to land from the "River Clyde" at V. beach, and who were nearly annihilated in the operation, and who performed what their General declared to them seemed to him and to other commanders the impossible—these men have maintained at their highest the magnificent traditions of the gallantry of the Irish regiments.
The three new Irish Divisions which were raised for the New Army, the 10th Division, the 16th Division, and the 36th Division, at Suvla Bay, at Salonika, and on the Western Fronts, down to this moment have, I believe, been watched with the tenderest solicitude and the deepest pride by their countrymen. With the deepest pride their countrymen saw how civilians drawn from every walk of civil life were able to hold their own, and perhaps more than their own, with the trained soldiers of some of the most powerful armies in the world. We Irishmen have regarded every victory of the Canadians and of the Anzacs with feelings of the deepest pride, because we feel justified in recalling the fact that from 20 to 25 per cent. of those gallant men are the sons of Irish parents.
Let me say there is one very special reason indeed why I should say these words now upon this occasion. These gallant Irish troops have during the past year and a half had a new and bitter trial imposed upon them in events that have been happening in their own country. These events have not touched their valour or their loyalty. They have remained true to their proud motto, " Semper et ubique fidelis. " But many of those men, especially those who joined the New Army, believe that they were not only going to fight in a just cause for the general principles of civilisation and of liberty, but that in a certain special sense they were going to fight for Ireland, for her happiness, for her prosperity and her liberty. Now they have seen a section, at any rate of their own countrymen at home during the past year repudiate that idea, and then they have had brought home to them in the midst of their other trials, privations and sufferings a new and poignant feeling of anguish. I wish it were possible for me to speak a word to every one of those men. If my words could reach them I would say to every one of them that they need have no misgiving, that they were right from the first, that time will vindicate them, that time will show that while fighting for civilisation and liberty in Europe, they are also fighting for civilisation and liberty in their own land. I would like to say to every man of them, in addition, that even at this moment, when ephemeral causes have confused and disturbed Irish opinion, they are regarded with feelings of the deepest pride and gratitude by the great bulk of the Irish race, and by all that is best in every creed and class in Ireland.
I desire to add my voice to those already heard by the House in supporting this Resolution. As the bulk of the Army is composed of men whom in a certain sense we represent, I think a few words from these benches will not be deemed out of place. With regard to the Navy, I can add very little to what the Prime Minister has said and the right hon. Gentleman who followed him, except to say that I feel sure on the part of the public generally in personnel and bravery our Navy is considered to be unequalled by any navy in the world, I welcome the bringing forward of this Motion, and think it is a good idea on the part of the Prime Minister. Our Allies, from the discussion on this Motion, will get to apprehend what our Navy has really been doing. Reference has been made to the great silent watch upon the North Sea and the seas of the world, and I think it is true to say that people have not known the great task which it has had to perform. The Prime Minister told us that it has watched every bay and every gulf and every sea throughout the world. When our enemies sometime talk about the freedom of the seas as one of the conditions of peace, it is wise at this moment to ask when have the freedom of the seas ever been in danger? That freedom has been kept by the British Navy from time immemorial and it is keeping it to-day in the interests of the Allied Powers and in the interests of civilisation. I have seen the men of the Navy in the North Sea, and I have wondered and marvelled at their courage and pluck and vigilance and zeal. With regard to the Army, I happened to be with them upon the Ypres salient when things were bad and at a time when the only thing that stood between the enemy and the capture of that salient was men's bodies. There was no reply to the terrible hail of shot that came from the enemy's artillery and there were very few machine guns. When we recall how we lost a third of the Army there without a single fight and that men stood there and that their bodies were smashed and mangled in the trenches, I say that the bravery of the British Army has never yet been excelled, and in saying that I am only making a simple statement of fact.
When we remember that the great bulk of the men in the Army were drawn from the dockside, the railways, the mines, and factories and desks, we must admire the wonderful spirit which they displayed. The fact that those men after six months were put up against the greatest military proposition the world has yet seen and that they fought and beat the great Prussian Guard speaks volumes for the tenacity and courage of our race and gives the lie direct to the German philosophers and politicians who said we were a decadent race. There is the retreat from Mons. Will the story of that heroic and magnificent effort ever be written? I do not think that the English language can find words to express adequately what happened upon that occasion. They fought and died and there were less than ten thousand of the original Army left, but they left a spirit behind them and taught the boys who came from the desk and the mine and the railway how to die heroically and nobly for an ideal, and how to save their country and civilisation from overwhelming disaster. The Prime Minister has said glorious words about the men of the mercantile marine, and even he will agree with me that mere words cannot express our admiration for their glorious conduct. At home here which of us can say that we have been suffering in the War. Here we are in peace and security with very little sacrifice and very little suffering, and all because of the three great arms of our Services, the Navy, the Army, and the mercantile marine who have kept these shores almost immune from attack. All over the country in towns and villages I have met men who have told me stories of how they had been torpedoed and escaped in open boats, and how they had been fired upon by the submarine when they tried to escape, and when they got home almost the first thing those men did was to go down to a shipping office eager again to go to sea and eager again to save us and the country from all danger.
The relatives of those who have died to save this dear old land of ours, will I know never be forgotten by the country. You have the widows and the mothers and the fatherless children, and I have never yet heard a single one of them regret that their men died for the cause in which they fought; but, on the contrary, they recall with pride the cause for which their men went down, and that they offered all that men can offer and endured death and suffering in order that freedom and liberty might live and in order that our civilisation shall be perpetuated, and in order that our whole Christian faith shall be purified and ennobled by the sacrifices they have made. In every working-class home in this country the Prime Minister and this House will be thanked for the opportunity that has been taken to record, not merely the opinion of this House, but the thanks of the country at large, to that noble Army of citizen soldiers and that great Navy of silent courageous men and the great mercantile fleet of our country. In these few halting words I desire to associate the Members from these Benches with the statement of the Prime Minister and the right hon. Gentleman who seconded.
There is really no necessity for anyone to say anything more, after the very eloquent speeches we have heard from the Prime Minister and the right hon. Gentleman who seconded (Mr. Asquith), the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. J. Redmond), and the hon. Member who has last spoken. But, as Chairman of the Scottish Liberal Members, I have been asked on this occasion to say one or two words from the Scottish point of view. Let me first mention the Navy. We all recollect the gallantry of John Cornwell. Last week there was a young officer on board one of the destroyers which was torpedoed. His mother wanted him to take a life-saving jacket, but his reply was, "No, I will not put it on, I will take my chance with the men." I think that was a noble and gallant action for him to have taken, and I am glad to say that he was saved. So far as the Army is concerned I think there would be no discrimination as between the different troops, whether they come from England, Scotland, Ireland or Wales. I wish to make no discrimination. They have all fought well and borne their part bravely. The motto of the famous Scots Greys is "Second to None," and all I claim for Scotland, both in the Army and in the Navy or in the mercantile marine, where most of the engineers are Scottish, is that the men have been second to none and shown themselves second to none in their bravery and gallantry. The last word I have to say is with reference to those who have lost their nearest and dearest in this War. I do not think there is a man here who either himself or in his friends has not been bereft of those whom he loves and those whom he would have liked to have had around him in his old age. It has been well said that this War taught the young how to die and ought to teach the old how to live. We old men who cannot go to the front ought to do all we can to help on in the prosecution of the War, and to see that the mothers and the widows and those who have been bereft and those who have been injured in the War shall have ample means to secure something like comfort in their old age. As the Prime Minister has said, Scotland now, as always, has done its share. I am speaking not only on my own behalf, but on behalf of all the people when I say how proud we are of the part that Scotland has played in this War, and that we mean to continue to the end and until victory has been secured to this country.
I desire, in a very few sentences, to associate Wales with the Motion which has been, so adequately moved by the Prime Minister, and supported by other speakers. The great lesson of this War has undoubtedly been unity—the co-ordination of all, without distinction, to the common cause. None the less, I think it is perfectly true to say that the stress of this great convulsion of war has given a new meaning and a new influence to the national characteristics of those who make up the British people. It is not, therefore, unnatural, that I should also claim on behalf of Wales special reference in this Motion to the heroism of my countrymen on land and on sea, to the men who have, during the last three years, upheld the best traditions of their race. Centuries ago Wales was described as "an old, haughty nation proud in arms." I think I may say, probably in no limited sense, that the conduct of Welshmen in the various battlefields of this great War has amply vindicated that description. I feel, as other speakers have already expressed it, that it is the duty and the privilege of this House to place this definite expression of gratitude upon its Journals. At the same time, when we consider, or try to realise, the height and depth of the sacrifice and suffering of those who have stood, and who stand to-day, between us and the fiercest and most formidable foe that ever wielded the weapons of war, we feel how futile are mere words in the expression of our sense of lasting gratitude and of obligation.
I think I may say this, too: Never has a Motion ever been submitted to this House so charged with meaning and feeling as this Motion to-day. I will not endeavour to single out any special deed of heroism done by Welshmen in the course of this War. That is unnecessary. Still more would it be out of place to endeavour to compare in any way the valour of those gallant men who unitedly make up our invincible armies at the front. But I will say this if I may: Wales in this War has given the flower of her youth. She has given of her best. She has given those of greatest promise in intellect and in character. No man can measure the loss of life suffered by Wales from the destruction of this devastating war. May I say this, too? Wales from the outset—the real Wales—has never faltered in this great enterprise. Although further sacrifice may be demanded in the future, that will be given and endured until the triumphant end has been reached. In passing this Resolution in this historic House, which, at all events, to-day is the mouthpiece of the nation, I feel, and I think every Member of the House who is listening to me must feel, that behind the words of the Resolution there lies the consciousness and the assurance that when Peace comes we will, as far as Parliament can do it, translate our gratitude into deeds. As far as Parliament can do it, when Peace comes, we will try to—
I do not intend to detain the House for more than a very few moments on behalf of the smallest party in this House. I desire to say, and I believe I am reflecting the opinion, not of any section of the community, but of the whole nation, when I say that we thank the Prime Minister for having permitted the House to do what the House has been desirous of doing for a very long time—to place on record its gratitude to the armed forces of the Crown who are sustaining this intense and long fight in such a glorious manner for the people of our Empire. There is nobody who has had the privilege, even as an amateur and a civilian, of serving in His Majesty's Army who does not realise that but for the Navy the British Army could have taken no part in this War, and the German nation at this time would have been dominating the world. There is no civilian in this country who does not realise—at least I hope there is none— that we should be starving, crying for bread at this very moment, but for the fact that the Navy has kept the surface of the ocean clear of the ships of our enemies. Therefore it seems very fit and proper that we should thank the armed forces of the Crown now, and, particularly when we remember the great sacrifices which have been already alluded to, it seems to me, when men are fighting and perishing, that it is fit and proper that we should record our thanks now, so that every soldier and sailor who has been defending our country and the Empire for these months and years may know that the gratitude of this House and the gratitude of our whole race goes out to them; that we think of them with thankfulness every day and every night. This is no occasion for mourning. It is an occasion for joyful thanks for the wonderful things our Navy and our Army have done. We recall the fact that the position all along the Belgian and French frontiers, where our Armies have been fighting all this time, were positions of the enemy's choice; that for nearly three years the enemy was entirely dominating the British Army from one end of that position to the other, that its observation was so superior that, however deep our trenches were, he could look down into them and inflict casualties continuously upon our men.
Ever since July 1st, 1916, we have seen the change coming. We should record our thanks to those who have made this change possible, and who have worked out the greater schemes of organisation that we have seen since. We have to remember this, that in the five great offensives that have taken place since then—on the Somme, at Armentiéres, at Messines, at Ypres, and also during that winter on the Ancre—that on every single occasion in these offensives the British troops have stormed the strongest frontal positions which have been ever held against attacks. In addition to that fact every single one of these offensives entailed at least five, and in some cases twelve and fourteen, minor offensives, which had to be undertaken by the British troops, so that in the something like fifty attacks since 1st July of last year, against, let us not forget, the strongest positions that have ever been occupied in war, the British troops have been successful on practically every occasion. It is only right that we should remember that the horrors modern warfare entails have never been equalled in any warfare of the past. Therefore the men who are thanked by this Motion are not the kind of soldiers who went gaily forth to battle in days gone by, for a little struggle which was going to take a short time, followed by a prolonged rest. They are bearing this burden day and night with extraordinarily good cheer, with extraordinarily good hope, an extraordinary belief and faith in their cause, and extraordinary confidence in the people of this country.
These results have been obtained in those various offensives to which I have alluded. In the earliest days, when the British Regular Army, to which so great and noble a tribute has been paid to-day, and which I, perhaps, as one who saw them but was not of them, can also pay my tribute, one man in every five yards, and with no reserves at all, defeated the flower of the Prussian Army. We have good reason to remember all this, as we will in a few days hence, on the great anniversary of that day. We ought never to forget, as we shall not in generations to come, by generations yet unborn in this country, that imperishable page in our history. I do desire to emphasise this; that since those times War has become far more horrible, and our New Armies, without so much training, are sustaining the fight against the most terrible nerve-strain which mortal man has ever had to face. When we remember that in spite of that, in spite of all the infernal inventions of modern warfare, these men stand firm and have never allowed the line to be broken, I think we will all agree that our gratitude should be great. The Prime Minister to-day paid a tribute not only to our Regular Army, but to our New Army, and also to the Territorial Army. There are many homes in this country who will be glad to have that tribute to the men who had no time to put their houses in order, who were not men carved out for professional service, whose terms kept them in this country, but who, with very few exceptions, as one man, were ready to step into the breach at a time when we had no men to turn to and when our great New Army was unarmed and untrained. It seems to me that the great lesson we have to learn is to ask ourselves here, what is the best way we can really thank our soldiers in the field? Surely the best way we can thank them is to be worthy of them; and to see that we do not weaken our support of them in this country.
I should like to say this—I think it is important. I hope we will always deal sternly with those who produce panic in our country for minor causes which have nothing to do with the decision of the War. I hope we shall do everything in our power to make it clear that we do not approve of those panic-mongers who stand up in our midst, and because, forsooth, there may be three or four aeroplanes over this country! Let us remember that these troublous incidents are suffered by the British Army all day and all night, and in far greater measure than we suffer them. Let us, therefore, be true to our soldiers by treating these little incidents with the same dignity as our heroes in the field. In conclusion, I believe that this message that we are sending from this House to everybody in the Army will bring cheer into the homes of those who have sons and other relatives fighting overseas, and into the homes of those who have lost their sons in our cause. I believe that the country, and I am sure that the Navy and the Army, will all be rejoiced to think that we have taken this opportunity of placing on record our gratitude, which can never die, and which is given from this great assembly as representing the heart and the mind of the nation.
I must ask the indulgence of the House to enable me, in the fewest possible words, to fulfil an obligation which has been cast upon me. I have been asked by the largest association of the officers of the merchant service to express to the Prime Minister, the Government and the House the intense appreciation of the merchant service for the great honour which is done to that service by placing them side by side with the Navy and the Army and the Oversea Forces of the Crown in the vote of thanks which this House is now considering for their priceless services to the country. I am convinced, from what I have already heard, that this will be an inspiration to our merchant service, and will be an inducement—although none is really needed—to them to carry on their hazardous calling, so absolutely vital to the success of this War in the cause of liberty, and that the Prime Minister has really, in the form in which he has put this Motion, interpreted the true position and the feeling of the people as a whole. The records of the Elizabethan sailors for reckless courage and daring are a great inheritance of our Navy and our merchant service, and we now know that, high as that record is, the very soul and spirit of those great heroes, Drake, Frobisher and Raleigh, and the others of the Elizabethan era still pervade and animate all our sailors, whether they are officers or men, whether they belong to the Navy or the merchant service.
It is significant that this year several Departments of State have each in their own way recognised the fact that the merchant service has reached a fresh level and a fresh distinction, and has fresh claims upon the nation it never had before. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his last Finance Act—and the merchant service is grateful to him for it—extended to it the same concessions in the matter of Income Tax and death duties which have been accorded to the Navy and the Army. Even at the present moment in the Representation of the People Bill the Home Secretary is treating with sympathy the claims of the merchant service to have all the voting facilities which are accorded to the Navy and the Army, and the President of the Board of Trade has done much this year to remove small grievances and small inequalities and injustices which press hardly on many of the officers and men of the Merchant Service. And now, I think, I may fairly say that the coupling of the Merchant Service with the Navy, the Army, and the Oversea Forces is a fitting token of the esteem and gratitude of the nation, and one which they well deserve. They have done all that mortal men could, and I am satisfied that they will do their part to the end of this War until we secure our final victory.
May I, as an old Indian officer, be permitted to say one word to associate myself with what the Prime Minister has told us regarding the doings of the Indian Army in this War? We must remember that the 70,000 men who formed the first force from India landed in France in the autumn of 1914, just about the time of the first battle of Ypres, and that they came just in time to fill up the gaps then, and to help to hold the trenches until our New Army was ready. Those men came over at a moment's notice—the first Indians, I may say, that ever came over to fight in Europe, utterly strange and foreign to the country. We all know that Indians can stand heat, and we know, as the result of the Thibet Expedition, they can stand cold, but what Indians cannot stand is wet and cold. Now, the way those 70,000 men stuck it out there through the whole of that terrible winter of 1914–15 is a thing that should always remain in our memory for generations to come. They took their full share in the trenches. I have often heard described the terrible sufferings they went through—how, when they got out of the trenches, their feet were so swollen that they could hardly crawl back to their billets; how the little Ghurkas were up to the waist in mud, and it took two men to get each of them out of the trenches. Well, those men stuck it all through the winter of 1914-15, and we owe them undying gratitude for what they did. The Infantry afterwards went to Mesopotamia. The Indian Cavalry are still in France, and will have their fourth winter there this year. Not one of those men has had leave, and yet there is not a murmur. Those Indian cavalrymen have lands and have great cause to want to get home, and yet there they are. We hear continual complaints here of men not getting leave for eighteen months, yet those men have been nearly four years in France and have never had any leave. It is the same with the Indian Army in East Africa; the men have never had any leave, and we hear no grumbling. The Indian Army also has served in Egypt and done well there. They have also won admiration in Salonika and elsewhere. I need not say a word about Mesopotamia or as to how the Indian Forces stuck it throughout the whole siege of Kut. The country owes a great debt of gratitude to the Indian Army, and I am proud to think that they have now received this mark of appreciation.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolved,
"That the thanks of this House be given to the officers, petty officers, and men of the Navy for their faithful watch upon the seas during more than three years of ceaseless danger and stress, while guarding our shores and protecting from the attacks of a barbarous foe the commerce upon which the victory of the Allied cause depends.
"That the thanks of this House be given to the officers, non-commissioned officers, and men of the British Armies in the field, and also to the women in the medical and others services auxiliary thereto for their unfailing courage and endurance in defending the right, amid sufferings and hardships unparalleled in the history of war, and for their loyal readiness to continue the work to which they have set their hands until the liberty of the world is secure.
"That the thanks of this House be accorded to the gallant troops from the Dominions Overseas, from India, and from the Crown Colonies, who have travelled many thousands of miles to share with their comrades from the British Isles in the sacrifices and triumphs of the battlefield, and to take their full part in the struggle for human freedom.
"That the thanks of this House be accorded to the officers and men of the Mercantile Marine for the devotion to duty with which they have continued to carry the vital supplies to the Allies through seas infested with deadly perils.
"That this House doth acknowledge with grateful admiration the valour and devotion of those who have offered their lives in the service of their country, and tenders its sympathy to their relatives and friends in the sorrows they have sustained."— [ The Prime Minister. ]
Ordered, That Mr. Speaker do signify the said Resolution to the Commissioners for executing the Office of Lord High Admiral and to His Majesty's Secretaries of State for War, for the Colonies, and for India, and to the Shipping Controller, and request them to communicate the same to the officers, men and women referred to therein.—[ The Prime Minister. ]
Bills of Exchange (Time of Noting) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
I think I can explain the purpose of this Bill in a very few words, and I think the House will agree with me that it is of an essentially non-controversial character. Under the existing law bills have to be noted the same day that they are dishonoured. We propose to amend that law and give the next day after dishonouring, during which day such bill or cheque may be noted. One reason for this is that the clerical staffs of the notaries are very much depleted by men having been called up for military service. The second rather curious reason which would not strike anyone at first sight is that there are so many girl clerks now employed in the City of London, and they have to go round with these documents for noting, and it is considered very undesirable by their employers that they should be going about the streets of the City of London sometimes up to comparatively late hours of the evening on these dark nights in pursuance of this duty. The alteration which has been embodied in this small Bill has been approved by the Institute of Bankers, by the Incorporated Law Society and by the Chambers of Commerce, and I feel quite sure that, after the brief explanation which I have given, and with the weight of authority behind it, the House would desire that such a change should be brought into effect as soon as possible. I only propose to ask the House this evening to give a Second Reading to this Bill.
This Bill is extremely simple, and secures a reform in the law which ought to have been made long ago. In the case of foreign bills particularly, the time is far too short, and I believe for a long time past it has been the custom in the cotton trade by which the bills can be noted on the day of the next post after the bill becomes due. The reasons that have prompted the Government to bring in this Bill, being reasons solely connected with the War, perhaps I may be allowed to say it is a reform which was very much wanted already in the commercial world, especially in the case of foreign bills, so that the practice may be assimilated to that of Liverpool, where it has worked extremely well, and affords facilities which merchants and others have long desired.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]
Naval and Military War Pensions, Etc. (Local Committees) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
This is a very simple Bill, which I can explain to the House in a very few sentences. The object of it is simply this, that every local war pensions committee shall have at least one representative of the discharged soldiers and sailors upon it. When I say one representative, I do not mean any outsider who might be chosen by any federation or committee of sailors and soldiers to represent them, but an actual discharged man—a man who has been discharged in the present War, who would be able to bring the appeals, grievances, and so forth of the men themselves before the local committee. In our view it will be a great advantage to local committees to have such a representative. The House will remember that when the Naval and Military War Pensions Act was first passed, committees were formed under certain directions.
Notice taken that forty Members were not present; House counted; and forty Members being found present—
6.0 P.M.
( resuming ): The House will remember that when these committees were first formed schemes were drawn up by the borough council or county council and certain directions were adopted. One was, that there must be a direction for the inclusion of women and representatives of Labour on the committee. This Bill amends that provision by saying that there must also be a discharged soldier or sailor. Inasmuch as most of these schemes are already in existence, it will be necessary for the local councils to amend their schemes, and that is provided for in the second Subsection of the first Clause of this Bill. It is also provided that if the council within a reasonable time does not take this action, the Minister of Pensions may do this on his own initiative. With regard to the manner in which these representatives are to be appointed, it is impossible for us to lay down the exact methods to be pursued. We cannot say that any particular body is to be nominated, but, just as it is left to the borough and the county council to devise the best plan when they were claiming their original schemes which before had to be approved by the Statutory Committee and now by the Ministry, so we shall leave it to these councils to put up their schemes to the Ministry for approval. All we desire is to get the best representatives we can of discharged soldiers and sailors. In con- clusion I wish to say that in bringing in this Bill we do not desire to cast any aspersions or slurs upon the work which has been done by local committees. In our opinion they have done their work, as a general rule, exceedingly well, and we are very grateful to them, but we think it will help them in their work if they have such a representation as we are now proposing, and that is the sole reason why we bring in this Bill.
I am very glad that my hon. and gallant Friend has brought this. Bill in, and so far as I am concerned I welcome this alteration in the constitution of the local war pensions committee. I do not propose to make any lengthy remarks on the Second Reading, and I want to suggest that between now and the Committee stage the hon. and gallant Member will consider what is a real objection to the Bill as it stands, and I hope he will try to meet that objection. First of all, the words used in Clause 1 of the Bill provide that there shall be at least, one representative of disabled men. I do not think that that is perhaps the happiest phraseology for obtaining the object of this Bill. What we want on the local war pensions committee is not so much a representative of the disabled men as an actual discharged and disabled man. For instance it will be quite possible in order to meet the requirements of this Bill as it stands to appoint anyone like myself as a member of the local war pensions committee. Many of us could claim and presume to be representatives of disabled men, in so far as we know their wants, but after all we are not discharged or disabled men, and it is necessary that the view of those men should be expressed by themselves on these local war pensions committees. Therefore, I hope that my hon. and gallant Friend will be willing to accept an Amendment which I shall put down, or which the Government may decide to put down, in order to make it clear in the Bill that it is an actual disabled man who is to be appointed on these committees. I should also like to have seen an addition made to the number of the representatives. After all there are over twenty members of the local war pensions committee and the majority of them are appointed by the local authority, the remainder being co-opted from various bodies supposed to be interested in the administration of the supplementary allowances which are in the hands of the local war pensions committee. Therefore, I do not think it is asking too much to increase the number and say "at least one." Any committee which appoints one falls in with the desire of this Bill, and it meets the desideratum of the Bill as it stands.
I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will also agree to increase the number of representatives. I would suggest that one of these additional representatives should be the widow of a discharged man. After all this War has attracted to the ranks of the Army a great number of men in good social positions and many of their widows are amongst the most intelligent we have in our municipalities and in our county and urban areas, and I am certain they could bring to the administration of the local war pensions committee the sympathy and knowledge which would enable them to meet the needs of many of the cases that come before them. I do not know whether the title of the Bill as drawn would allow the inclusion of a woman representative. The title states that the Bill is to provide for the inclusion of representatives of disabled men. I should like to ask you, Mr. Whitley, whether you would rule as being outside the scope of the title of this Bill an Amendment which would allow the widow of a discharged soldier to be appointed as the representative of disabled men. I think a decision on that point would help us in framing our Amendment. Obviously the best representative of the men who have been killed in the War would be the widows of those soldiers. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will meet us on this point, and make it quite clear that the person to be placed on the committee is a disabled man and not a representative. I hope he will also consider the acceptance of a suggestion increasing the number of these representatives to two or more. If he does then I believe the Bill will go through without any trouble, and this alteration in the existing law will be a great advantage.
I hope the hon. and gallant Member in charge of this Bill will accede to the suggestions which have been made. I think an increased number of disabled men or the wives or widows of those men who have actually served should be put on these committees. We want more than one. There is in every county a depot of the County Regiment, and it has all its old comrades' associations, and there are there people specially capable of looking after the welfare of sailors and soldiers who have been disabled. We want on these committees men who thoroughly understand the soldiers and their wants, and no one understands them better than the soldiers themselves and their wives. I ask that we should have a very much increased number of these disabled men representatives, also that we should have the wives and the widows of these men on the committee because they are the people who really know the wants of soldiers and sailors.
I desire in a word or two to associate myself with the observations which have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), and I desire to say that he does not stand alone in welcoming these proposals. My hon. Friend was perfectly right in pointing out that the phraseology of the first Clause would enable the representative of the discharged soldiers to be anyone and not necessarily a discharged soldier. There is no doubt that the man who ought to be on each of these committees should be a soldier who has served and has been disabled and discharged. I also think that the number of representatives as arranged for in this Bill for discharged men is not sufficient because one out of twenty is too small a representation. In Committee Amendments will be moved to secure what has been suggested, and I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman will see his way to make it unnecessary for us to press these points by accepting our ideas beforehand, and by putting down himself, on behalf of the Government, the necessary Amendments.
I am glad this Bill is in charge of the hon. and gallant Member because we all know that he has taken a great interest in the welfare of our soldiers. I trust that he will agree to the suggestions which have been made by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh who has taken such a great interest in this matter. I think we ought to have more than one representative, and we should also have the widow or some other representative of disabled soldiers besides the disabled soldiers themselves. There is a very strong feeling in the country that the women themselves have not been sufficiently considered upon these questions. I trust the hon. Member will increase the numbers, and, above all, that we shall have one woman and at least two or three disabled soldiers and sailors.
When I read this Bill I came to the same conclusion as the hon. Members who have already spoken, and I was about to take the same points, but now it is unnecessary. What was the intention of the Government when they brought in the Bill? Did the Government intend that the representative should be an actual discharged disabled soldier, because it does not look as if they meant that. The words do not say so at all. I should like my hon. and gallant Friend to say whether he means that it should be an actual discharged disabled soldier or naval man. If that is the case the Bill will require Amendment, because as it is the representative might be a woman. The hon. Member or East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) wondered whether, under the title of the Bill, a woman could serve upon these committees. Subject to what you may rule, it is perfectly clear that a woman could be a representative of disabled men discharged from the naval or military Service. I would also ask the hon. and gallant Member to consider whether it would not be right that there should be one representative for every ten or part of ten of the members of the local war pensions committee. That would give them a very far representation. It is a matter for further consideration whether one ought to be a woman or not.
I have already explained that we do not want somebody merely to represent discharged soldiers and sailors; we want a discharged soldier or sailor in the flesh, and, if the words do not carry that, we will certainly consider an Amendment to make it clear. With regard to numbers, it says at least one. Might I point out that the scheme has got to be approved by the Minister of Pensions, and it does not in the least follow if only one is put on that the Minister of Pensions, at all events in the case of a large committee, will approve of it. Here again we are quite willing to consider Amendments put down.
On a point of Order. Could you give us a ruling on the point where the title would include a woman as the representative of the disabled men?
I am afraid that the Deputy-Speaker cannot give any ruling which will bind the Chairman of Ways and Means.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow— [ Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen. ]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Censorship (Private Correspondence)
Whereupon Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
I have taken advantage of the period on the Adjournment to bring to the notice of the House a matter which I consider to be of very serious importance. It is not possible by question and answer across the floor of the House to give full consideration to this matter which I raised to-day in questions to the Home Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman, in his reply, said that he really could not answer the questions that I put, and I cannot say that I was surprised. Last Wednesday when I asked him to what extent inland private correspondence was being opened in this country and whether in every case a warrant was issued by him as Secretary of State allowing such proceedings, he replied that he had signed a considerable number of warrants, so it appears that this practice of opening inland private correspondence is very widespread. I consider this to be a matter of very vital importance to our liberties and to the maintenance of that spirit of honour and justice which every British citizen desires to see maintained in our methods of government. I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not dealing with the censorship. Letters that enter this country from abroad are opened by the Censor, and when they are received by those to whom they are addressed on the envelope appears the words printed, "Opened by the Censor." I do not suppose there is anyone in this country, considering that this is war-time, who has any objection to that practice, because it is obvious that letters coming from abroad or going out from this country might contain information which ought not to be passed. I am raising the question of the practice of opening private letters and sticking them down again so that the writer and the receiver of the letter are unaware that they are being spied upon. It is a most objectionable practice, and that it should be widespread and outside the control of this House is a matter of very grave importance to us.
There is no sort of doubt that it is widespread. Letters are opened and photographed, and then stuck up again very ingeniously in order to prevent knowledge of the fact coming to the receiver. Seals are copied, the letters are steamed, and then they are so ingeniously stuck down again that it is difficult for anybody to detect that they have been opened. We have a Department of State engaged in what I consider to be a most underhand and most undesirable practice. We have a Department of State giving up its time to the unsticking of letters and to the photographing of private correspondence. It has been going on, as a matter of fact, for a very considerable time, but the practice has become very much more common within recent months. I know because one of these letters was brought to my notice when I went before a Committee with regard to the internment of people about a year or eighteen months ago. I was giving some information with regard to a gentleman, and a letter was shown me that had been intercepted in the post. My opinion was asked upon it. I said at that time that I was not in the habit of intercepting correspondence or giving any opinion upon it, and I refused. It now appears, as the Home Secretary says, that he has to sign a considerable number of warrants. I wonder if in every case that a letter is opened his sanction or warrant is given… I think the practice has become so common that to a large extent the Department which is involved has dispensed with the Secretary of State's warrant.
Never…
I am glad to hear that, but the Home Secretary evidently is not able to tell us the number, so frequently has he to sign these warrants. These letters are opened, and the photographs that are thought worth taking are kept in Government Departments. The reason of the practice is not quite clear. I believe that so-called Pacifist organisations have been subjected to this treatment for a considerable time. It is not only in that direction, however, that this method is adopted. Labour leaders have their correspondence opened in order that any idea of possible strikes or any trouble that may be brewing in the labour world may at once be discovered. I am told that in some Government Departments they have a considerable collection of letters that are considered to be of value. I really believe, if the public were fully aware of the fact that the post has lost its sacred character, that they would be extremely indignant, and it is curious to think that this House should submit to a Department of State practising methods of this description without protest. I would remind the House that in 1844, which is the classic instance of protesting against the practice of opening private correspondence, there was considerable indignation in this House. The question was raised, and after two days' Debate a Committee of Inquiry was appointed. The speeches were of such a character that I should like to be allowed to quote some passages, because they are very relevant to the present occasion. It was in June, 1844, that the Debate was raised, and Sir James Graham was then Home Secretary. The hon. Member who opened the Debate protested against the introduction into this country of the odious spy system, which he said was disgraceful to a free country. Mr. Hume, who took part in the Debate, said that it was an outrage upon public liberty and one of the most disgraceful transactions that was ever reviewed in the House of Commons. I would remind the House that the particular instance was the opening of the correspondence of Mazzini and one or two other gentlemen resident in this country. Mr. Macaulay took part in the Debate and expressed very great indignation at such a practice. He said: practice to which we are subjected and apparently have no need to protest. Whether it is this Department or that Department, I do not know, but we know there is a set of officials who are told off to tap the telephone, so that eaves dropping forms also part of the practices adopted by His Majesty's Government in these times, when we are supposed to be fighting for liberty. The most significant pronouncement at the time of the opening of the Mazzini letters was a letter written by Thomas Carlyle to the "Times," in which he said:
I am glad that this opportunity has arisen in order that I might explain to the House to what extent this practice has reached. If it can be so easily done and so extensively done as it is now, if the sacredness of the post is now a matter of the past and the Post Office is used, not for conveying correspondence, but for intercepting and examining correspond- ence, that new practice, if the Government find it a necessity, is one that ought to be openly and clearly discussed in and explained to the House, and this House ought to know whether the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary is not exercising powers which, if it fully knew the extent of them, it would consider objectionable. I should like to ask, as they asked in the former Debate in this House, what safeguards have we that this power will not be used for the purposes of private interests, for the gratification of private curiosity or for the indulgence of private malignity? Recently a case was brought to my notice of the extent to which this opening of private letters is practised. One saw there that the War Office was exercising its authority. I am not quite sure what is the exact relation between the War Office and the Home Office in this matter, and to what extent also the Post Office is used, but I think it is deplorable that we should discover that these great offices of State—the Home Office, the War Office, and the Post Office—are being used for an elaborate and an extended spy system, which can only be compared with the spy system which was practised under the late Government of the Tzar. We ought not to tolerate anything of the kind unless clear necessity is proved.
I do not know what the right hon. Gentleman or his colleagues expect to find in these letters. I do not know how successful they are in finding anything or the extent to which they have found anything by these means. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell us whether, in the hundreds of letters they must have opened there was one that brought any sort of result to justify the continuance or extension of the practice? Of course, the Home Secretary will declare, as he did in his answer to me to-day, that he cannot answer the question. That is the essence of the matter. When you indulge in practices of this sort secrecy is the foundation of them. You have got to give the impression outside that you are not doing anything of the sort; otherwise, of course, it is a failure. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman is placed in a very awkward position, because the more he protests to this House that I am exaggerating, the more we know he is doing his duty with regard to maintaining the secrecy which is the essence and the mainspring of this spy system. I really do not believe that it is consonant with British tradition that our letters should be opened, our conversations listened to, and that letters should be written, as they have been, to provoke correspondence in order that people may be caught in the meshes of the Defence of the Realm Act. The defence of the realm! There is no such thing It is the defence of the skins of the Government! I say that letters have been written to provoke correspondence. The right hon. Gentleman will deny it, but what is his denial worth? We know that he is obliged by his office to deny it. He is paid to deny it.
Oh, oh!
We have had from time to time very striking instances of the presence in our midst of agents provocateurs. That also is part and parcel of the system. In whose Department the staff of agents provocateurs work I do not know; whether they work in conjunction with those who are un sticking letters or those who are tapping telephones I do not know. We shall not hear to-night. It is part and parcel of this nefarious practice that is degrading the system of the Government, which we all want to see kept pure, and I am glad to have had the opportunity of bringing a few facts to the notice of the House to-night.
I do not in the least complain of this discussion being raised to-night. I said in answer to a question to-day that I did not feel at liberty, for public reasons, to give to the House the details of the letters which had been opened in the manner suggested by the hon. Gentleman, and I maintain that objection to giving him or the public the details, because the very fact of publishing these details would, of course, nullify the purpose in view. But I do not in the least complain of the general question being discussed, and I am ready to give the House to-night an account of what I have done in the matter. At the same time, I cannot redeem my promise without first adverting with very great surprise to a suggestion which the hon. Gentleman made at the end of his speech, namely, that because I am here as Home Secretary and have to preserve secrecy as to details, I may tell the House what is not true or deny before the House that which is true. What an extraordinary state of mind that discloses in the hon. Member! Unless he be one, I do not think there is a single man in the House who would accept office upon those conditions or who would stoop to deny in the House or elsewhere that which is true for any reason whatever, and the House may understand from the beginning that I adhere in every way to every word I am going to say. I shall not dream of denying that which I believe to be true, or of stating anything that I believe to be untrue. With these words of preface let me go on to the merits of the matter. This, of course, is a very old controversy, although it arises in a new form in this War. The question whether the Home Secretary of the day has the right to direct private letters to be opened as they go through the Post Office is a very old question indeed. The right was asserted at the moment when the Post Office was first established, and it has been asserted over and over again since that time. It was discussed in the Mazzini Debates in 1844 and 1845. The hon. Member (Mr. Ponsonby) read certain sentences from speeches made on that occasion but he omittted to tell the House what the result of those Debates was. The result was that the matter was referred to a Committee, which reported in favour of the practice. The point was raised again in 1881, when Sir William Harcourt was Home Secretary, and I should like to read a passage from an answer which he gave to a question on the 14th February in that year: often been made by Ministers, and so far as the House has taken any action it has affirmed the decision which Ministers have taken. So much about the past.
To-day we are, as everyone admits, in very serious times and I suppose there never was a time when the enemies of this country made so much use of every possible opportunity of obtaining information from this country and of using tools in this country to effect their ends. The system of German espionage and influence is spread all over the world. Germany has brought the art of using undue influence in every country which is at war with her to a pitch which it has never reached before. We have spies here, of course. We have people giving information to the enemy, trading with the enemy and conspiring with each other against this country to bring about the objects the enemy has at heart, and if we did not use every means which we have in our hand to defeat those machinations we should be neglecting the interests of the country. Letters have been opened, always under my warrant and never by the authority of anyone except myself. They have been opened for the purpose of reading the correspondence of persons who were suspected of being spies and some of them have turned out to be spies. The correspondence has been used in the prosecution of spies. Letters have been opened for the purpose of detecting people who were sending information to the enemy, not always directly by letters going out of the country—in that case the hon. Member raises no objection—but sometimes by letters written to a man in this country, a neutral who may have been travelling to a foreign country and who would have taken the information with him. They have been opened for the purpose of finding out people who have been trading with the enemy, contrary to our law, or who in other ways might have been helping the enemy and interfering in this country with the prosecution of the War. I have always made it my rule not to sign these warrants without very good reason shown to me, but when good reason has been shown to me I have signed them, feeling that I was doing only what I was absolutely bound to do.
Is it on sworn information that the warrant is signed or only on hearsay?
It is on information given to me by the officers who act in these matters and whose information I trust— certainly not on sworn information. I have been asked, Has this practice resulted in the discovery of any plot? Certainly it has. Time after time these letters, when opened, have shown by clear evidence what these people were about. They were working against this country. Time after time letters have been effective in bringing men to justice, or, at all events, in putting an end to their activities. The hon. Member says the power has been used for the purpose of dealing with industrial disputes. That is not true. I never should dream of using the power for that purpose. It is used entirely for the purposes of the War and to prevent activities against this country. Again, it has been said that letters have been written to provoke correspondence of this kind. I do not believe it. I should entirely discountenance such a thing and I know of no case within my jurisdiction where such a thing has been done. If any Member of the House can bring to my knowledge a single instance of that kind I will make inquiries and will see that whoever has used that method shall not use it again. In no case, so far as I know, is this accusation justified. The hon. Member suggests that this power has been used for illegitimate purposes or for personal ends. If there were the least reason to suspect that, I should take every step in my power to stop it. I do not think the hon. Member accuses me of using it for personal ends. I do not think he would. But if he does, I do not care. I do not think the House will believe it. At all events, if I find anyone making use of this power for that purpose, I will do my utmost to stop it, but I do not believe for a single moment that it is done.
The hon. Member made another point. He said, "If you open the letters you ought not to close them down. You ought to leave them open or indicate in some way that they have been opened." As a rule there would be no objection to that, but sometimes by doing that you will defeat your object, because when there is, as there often is, a long correspondence going on between two people then, the moment you open one letter, you indicate to the receiver that the correspondence is being watched, and there is an end of that correspondence. You, of course, defeat the very purpose for which you are opening the letters. I think, under war conditions, it would be undesirable to limit our powers in that way. I hope I have not spoken with heat, but this is, of course, a serious question. No one knows better than I do, unless it be the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Samuel), that the Home Secretary has very great powers. They are strong and they are arbitrary, and I believe they are properly made strong and arbitrary powers. I have the right not only to direct the examination of correspondence, but to take away the liberty of British subjects— not only of aliens, but of British subjects—and I have exercised that right on several occasions. It is a very great power to give to any individual in this country. The exercise of it has caused me, I think, more anxiety than any other power which I have at the Home Office. I hesitate to exercise it, and never do it without much thought, but when I find a case where a man has to be watched or, if need be, his liberties must betaken away, and I am satisfied that that is the only method open to me of protecting the country against injury, I will always take that step. I quite admit that I am responsible to the House. If I had exercised my powers otherwise than for the protection of the country I should have been guilty not only of a gross breach of duty, but of a gross breach of honour. Looking back, so far as I can, on the warrants and the orders for internment which I have signed, I am certain that in no case have I acted without good reason. I cannot give the House the full details under present conditions, but I have no reason for thinking that I have acted otherwise than rightly in the steps which I have taken.
Will the right hon. Gentleman give us some idea? Is it a matter of 500 or 50,000?
Neither.
I rise to say a few words in this discussion because I occupy the unique position of having held the offices both of Postmaster-General and Home Secretary during the War. It is the prime business of an executive Government to defeat conspiracy against the safety of the State. Parliament has deliberately entrusted the Home Secretary of the day with the power, and therefore with the duty, of authorising the examination of correspondence when, in his deliberate judgment, the safety of the country requires it, and I do not think this House, any more than previous Houses, would desire to deprive him of that right, which in my opinion is absolutely essential to the purpose of discovering and defeating dangerous plots and conspiracies. I was amazed to hear the hon. Member (Mr. Ponsonby) say that the Home Secretary will always deny that the agent-provocateur had been used, and that persons had been employed to write letters in order to evoke incriminating correspondence, and that his denial was not to be accepted by the House because it was merely his duty as a Minister to give such a denial. I was amazed because the hon. Member was undoubtedly impugning the honour of a Minister of the Crown, and one of its most respected members.
The right hon. Gentleman has entirely misinterpreted my meaning. I was not impugning the Home Secretary's honour. I was impugning the deplorable system in which he is entrapped, and part of that system necessitates the denial of practices which go on.
I do not think the hon. Member has made his case any the better by that interruption. I never heard of any such thing being done. I do not believe any British Minister would authorise such a thing to be done, and I very much doubt whether any subordinate official has ever dared to lend himself to so dastardly a practice as to act as an agent-provocateur in that manner. If the hon. Member or any of his Friends has reason to think such a thing is done it is at least his duty to the country, to the House, and to the Minister to lay before him proofs of the practice, or what he regards as proofs, in order that those who are supposed to have committed it may be brought to book.
7.0 P.M.
I do not wish to follow the right hon. Gentleman in the troublesome part of his speech. I wish to say that very early on I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the case of an agent-provacateur. I gave him the name and address, and what the man was doing, but beyond a mere acknowledgment of my letter, the right hon. Gentleman took no action, and when I took the precaution of asking my friends a little later on what had happened to the gentleman, who was in the Government's pay, I was informed that he had changed his address and disappeared.
What was the case?
It was the case of Alec Gordon.
He was not employed by my Department, or by any Department which works under me.
That is not exactly the point. The point is that I gave to the right hon. Gentleman the case of this man who was going about stirring up strikes, and suggesting to other people that they should do illegal things. I gave the right hon. Gentleman the facts. I gave him the address of the man about whom I complained. I have his acknowledgment of my letter, but beyond that nothing happened.
Was that before the trial?
It was immediately afterwards.
I was not Home Secretary then.
But surely the right hon. Gentleman does not deny receiving a letter from me about a gentleman in Leicester, suggesting to my friends that they should do illegal things?
I will have search made, I have no recollection of it.
I am not blaming the right hon. Gentleman; I am contributing a little bit of accurate information to the generalities to which the late Home Secretary treated us. The right hon. Gentleman says perfectly truly that he has got an exceedingly difficult position to fulfil. All that we ask him to do is to remember that in fulfilling that duty there are certain limits that he ought to put upon his power. If he does that, though we may disagree with his decisions, we should certainly accept them as being the decisions of a right hon. Gentleman who tries to do his best. It is very difficult to believe that he has confined his actions to these reasonable limits. In reference to the Mazzini case, Erskine May has really the last word to say. After reciting the facts of the case, and talking about the committees that were appointed, his last sentence is as follows:
"But no one can doubt that if used at all—"
that is, the power of the Home Secretary,
"it will be reserved for extreme occasions when the safety of the State demands the utmost Vigilance of its guardians."
Everybody has to interpret that according to his own lights. I think there is one test to be placed upon the Home Secretary's action which will enable us to discover whether he has taken that precaution, and it is this—has he issued warrants on definite information, or has he issued warrants upon mere suspicion? If the right hon. Gentleman, through reputable sources, gets information which convinces him, at any rate, there is a prima facie case against a certain person for either writing letters to British subjects that ought not to be written, or to subjects of neutral countries that might be used for the purpose of passing on information to the enemy, then, so far as I am concerned, I have no quarrel with him for having issued warrants for the examination of those letters. But I say the right hon. Gentleman has gone outside the bounds of that. What happens? Somebody is suspected because he holds opinions that the right hon. Gentleman himself did not hold. You get false accusations thrown about in certain choice newspapers, Organisations are mentioned, such as the Union of Democratic Control, the Independent Labour Party, and so on. Will the right hon. Gentleman rise and say from his box that he has never issued a warrant to examine the letters of prominent members of those bodies upon grounds not any more solid than this, that he thinks from the point of view they have taken on the War they may be doing something which is undesirable.
I deny that at once. I have never done that.
I am very much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that statement; and I will make this confession quite honestly and candidly, that it does remove from my mind a suspicion which was very deeply rooted there. There are certain things that we can test. We can test whether our letters are being opened, whether our correspondence has been touched or tampered with, and whether our conversations over the telephone have been heard. We have tested it, and we have proved that they have been tampered with. Now the right hon. Gentleman says he is not responsible. That shows that somebody else must be responsible, and we would like to know who is responsible. If you put a certain thing in your letters and your letters cannot be opened without certain things happening and those things have happened, what are we to think? The right hon. Gentleman's statement only implicates somebody else. So far as I am concerned, I accept his statement that these letters have not been opened as a consequence of the issuing of warrants by him. Family affairs of the most private and sacred characters are dealt with in letters; letters passing between fathers and sons are opened, read, and probably giggled over by some employé of the Government. If there was something going to happen I would not mind. What does happen? People write innocently, knowing to whom they were writing, use loose expressions, allow the pen to run loosely, and say things they would never dream of Saying if a third party were present. That letter is intercepted and is read by the old official mind of the right hon. Gentleman's staff. It is photographed, and finally the letter appears before the Committee which interns people as evidence against the foolish, but certainly not criminal and not culpable in any sense, writer of the letter. Like my hon. Friend, I was once called before this Committee. It was on the same case, and the letter to which my hon. Friend has referred was put before me. I did not quite take the view that my hon. Friend took because I felt that this man's liberty perhaps turned upon what view I expressed of the letter. I happened to know the person to whom the letter was written and I happened to know the mind of the writer of the letter, and how any Committee pretending to have judicial qualities could place any importance upon loose expressions with inverted commas and with exclamation marks and so on—how any Committee with any judicial sanity and solidity about it could treat that letter as being an important statement of a man's views passes my comprehension. That letter was opened in the post. It was read and it was copied. Neither the man who wrote it nor the rather notorious lady to whom it was addressed knew nothing whatever about it. The right hon. Gentleman must know that by this method he first of all manufactures his victims.
Take the great case of Mr. Morel. There was a letter read at Bow Street written by a lady to Mr. Morel. In that letter there was an expression—I am not quite sure of the words—"You will be glad to hear that your evil device has succeeded." After that expression there was a point of exclamation, making perfectly clear the meaning of the writer of the letter in using that expression. That letter was intercepted, and that expression was taken as a serious statement made by one correspondent to another as meaning literally what was on the face of it. It was actually read by the Government Prosecutor at Bow Street without any reference to the fact that there was the exclamation mark, which indicated the play of the pen. That is not fair play. That is not cricket. The right hon. Gentleman cannot say in reference to these proceedings that the safety of the State is protected to the extent of a featherweight by his activities and the enormous amount of money he is spending on those activities. Fishing expeditions are going on through the instrumentality of some Department or other, if not through a Department of the Home Office. Peoples' letters are being opened under a sort of roaming commission, just for the sake of reading them, to see what people are saying, and what they are thinking about, and the result is that the right hon. Gentleman, or the representative of the War Office, can come here and say, "I have discovered some cases." We know he must have discovered a few, but he has not told us how many blanks he has drawn. How many people has insulted and degraded by suspecting them in this unfortunate way, by having opened their letters and by having tapped their telephone messages? How many people has he unfairly and unjustly treated in this way and yet has never got a single syllable either from their letters or their conversation which has helped him to carry on his work for the protection of the State?
The right hon. Gentleman, I hope, will pardon us if we feel very strongly upon this matter. Not because we have anything to hide—we have not a syllable, not a sentence to hide—but when the English Post Office acts in this barefaced way by spying, and when you cannot write private letters to your own son or your own daughter without feeling that they may be opened and read and smiled over, and probably passed round, it does really throw a very unfavourable reflection across the minds of many of us who want to maintain the honour and dignity of our country at the present moment. We sat here early this afternoon and had a vision of what our sons and brothers are undergoing in order to maintain righteousness and justice on the earth, and I beg the right hon. Gentleman—do not destroy these ideals, do not destroy that vision by an abuse of powers that Ought to be used only in the most pressing circumstances and in the most exceptional conditions.
I am sure that the House will have listened with real sympathy to the speeches which have just been made on both sides on this question, and that no one listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Leicester without feeling that this is a very grave and earnest question indeed. I could not listen to the Home Secretary without feeling that he at any rate desired to carry out a very unpleasant, but necessary, duty in the spirit of a gentleman and according to the best traditions of Parliamentary life. But there are questions which he did not face, and one is this: Who are the men who really have the administration of this work? Can they be absolutely trusted? Do we know them? I can trust the right hon. Gentleman himself to carry out work of this character as well as anyone, but I believe that there are men in his Department who are not carrying it out in the spirit in which he himself would have done. There are various facts which I could use to support this. I will give one case which has been brought to my knowledge in which letters were opened. They were opened by a man who was so dis- gusted with the job that he had in hand that he slipped in a warning to the person, to whom the letter was passed on and the correspondence dropped. My right hon. Friend may laugh. He can hardly believe it. But I have seen the correspondence, and I have seen the warning slipped in by an official who was disgusted with the dirty job that he had on and gave the show away. In this case, I believe, he did a very patriotic thing, because it was a correspondence affecting a man—I will not say whether it was a man or a woman, but it was a person— whose honour I believe to be as high as that of the right hon. Gentleman himself. I will give another fact which is undoubted. There is an enormous amount of suspicion of letters being tampered with. Enquiries have come to me as to the cause of great delay in certain correspondence of certain people. Two persons have come to me knowing that I take an interest in these cases—but that certain correspondence has been greatly delayed—
It being one hour after the conclusion of Government business, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th'February.
Adjourned at Twenty minutes after Seven, o'clock.