House of Commons
Monday, November 5, 1917
HOSPITAL SHIPS (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 16, 1917)
Copy presented of Correspondence with the German Government regarding the alleged misuse of British Hospital Ships [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Shops Act, 1912
Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the undermentioned local authorities, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:
County of East Suffolk (urban district of Felixstowe);
County borough of Salford.
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Munitions
Copy presented of Memorandum No. 19, by the Health of Munition Workers Committee (a second Appendix to Memorandum No. 3 (Industrial Canteens), Investigation of Workers' Food and Suggestions as to Dietary [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Munitions Tribunals (Ireland) Rules, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Munitions Tribunals (Scotland) Rules, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Crown Agents for the Colonies
Copy presented of Accounts of the Grown Agents' Office Funds for 1916 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Board of Education
Copy presented of Minute of the Board of Education modifying Part III. of the Regulations for Technical Schools, Schools of Art, and other forms of provision of further Education in England and Wales [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Scottish War Savings Committee
Copy presented of the First Annual Report of the Committee [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Sugar Purchases
Copy presented of further Treasury Minute, dated 27th October, 1917, as to the financing of Sugar Purchases abroad on behalf of His Majesty's Government [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Enemy Air Raids
Government Insurance Scheme
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is going to propose some cheaper method of settling questions of damages for small claims arising under the aircraft insurance scheme than by a Petition of Right against the Crown; and if he is aware that many poor persons are kept out of money owing them for damages because they have not the money to face the costs of such expensive procedure as is suggested to them by the solicitor to the Board of Trade?
The statement that many poor people are kept out of their money by fear of expensive, legal proceedings is, I believe, incorrect, but if the hon. Gentleman will be good enough to give me particulars of the cases he refers to, they will be investigated.
Are there not cases in which the Board of Trade have told people that they must present a Bill of Right?
I have no knowledge of it.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he proposes to continue the practice of sending a second assessor to inspect the damages incurred under the Government anti-aircraft insurance scheme where the first assessor of the Government has inspected the premises and agreed to the amount and the Government is not satisfied with its own assessor's valuation; and whether he is aware of the hardship caused by the extra cost thus thrown on the insured?
As has already been explained to the hon. Gentleman, it is only in a small number of cases that it is necessary to appoint a second assessor; but the right to appoint a second assessor must be retained, in order to protect public funds. No extra cost is thrown on the assured in respect of assessors' expenses, as these are paid by the Government.
Must there not necessarily be greater expense thrown upon the insured if the premises are inspected a second time by another man?
I do not think so.
If the first assessor is appointed by the Department, why should not the Department abide by his decision?
I believe it is necessary, sometimes, to have a second opinion.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the subject of compensation for damage due to air raids?
A scheme has been prepared for giving owners of property not exceeding £500 in value compensation for damage done by air raids and bombardment without payment of any premium. Owners of property exceeding £500 in value would be compensated up to £500 without payment of premium, provided that all value in excess of £500 is insured under the Government Insurance Scheme. The new scheme will take effect as from 1st September. It will be administered by a Committee under the chairmanship of Sir Thomas Elliott, and will be worked in close connection with the Government Insurance Scheme, which is under the superintendence of the Board of Trade. I am circulating a copy of the scheme.
[ The following is the scheme referred to. ]
Scheme of Compensation for Damage by Aircraft and Bombardment
1. ( a ) Owners of property in the United Kingdom of an aggregate value not exceeding £500 will be compensated by the Government in respect of damage or destruction of any of such property by the perils coverable by the Government Aircraft and Bombardment Insurance policy, whether the property be insured under the Government Insurance Scheme or not so insured at the time of its damage or destruction.
( b ) Owners of insurable property in the United Kingdom of an aggregate value exceeding £500 will be compensated up to that amount without payment of premium, provided that all value in excess of £500 is insured under the Government Insurance Scheme.
2. If the property of an owner is not fully insured under the Government Insurance Scheme, any claim under this compensation scheme as well as under any Government policy will be subject to average in conformity with the terms and conditions of the Government Aircraft Insurance policy and the note thereto.
3. The total amount payable by the Government in respect of a claim will be discharged under any Government policy of insurance in force at the time of the damage up to the amount payable under such policy, and the balance, if any, will be discharged under this compensation scheme.
4. Owners of property may at their option insure the whole value of their property under the Government Aircraft, Insurance Scheme, but not by means of Post Office certificates, which will not be issued in future.
5. Compensation will be limited to the actual damage done, having regard to the condition and value of the property at the time of the damage, and will be devoted to making good the damage, subject to any conditions and exceptions which the Air-Raid Compensation Committee may prescribe.
6. ( a ) In the case of uninsured property immediate notice must, when damage occurs, be given to the Air-Raid Compensation Committee at Palmerston House, Old Broad Street, London, E.C. 2, or to their agents.
( b ) In the case of damage to property insured under the Government Aircraft Insurance Scheme, immediate notice must be given to the office through which the insurance was effected.
7. No compensation will be paid—
( a ) In respect of any loss recoverable under any insurance;
( b ) For money, securities, stamps, documents, manuscripts, or books of account;
( c ) For consequential loss or theft,
( d ) For any expenses incurred in preparing or supporting a claim on the Government;
( e ) For fees in connection with reinstatement of damaged property;
( f ) In the event of a claim being fraudulent in any respect.
8. In no circumstance will a refund of premium be made in respect of any insurance that may have been effected with the Government.
9. This scheme will take effect as from 1st September, 1917.
Are arrangements being made for the prompt settlement of these claims?
Yes; arrangements are being made to settle them promptly.
Will steps be taken to make the scheme known by Royal proclamation or otherwise? May I as a member of the War Guarantees Committee express thanks to the Government?
We shall take care that the scheme is publicly notified.
Is the Government returning all the premiums which have been paid?
Does the reply mean that all existing anti-aircraft policies should be reduced by £500 in order to render the concession effective?
That is the effect of the announcement I have made.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government is returning these premiums, but is only returning those of over 15s., and does he not consider it only right and just that premiums under 15s., which are mostly those of poor people, should also be returned?
I will make inquiries.
Will insurance companies which have insured against airraids be compelled to adjust their premiums in accordance with my right hon. Friend's declaration?
I should think so, but the statement I have made is perfectly plain. It only requires to be worked out.
Before the present scheme was arranged did the right hon. Gentleman consult the insurance companies?
It was arranged by means of a Committee. I do not know exactly what steps they took, but I am sure they took whatever steps were necessary to get a workable scheme.
Public Warnings
asked the Home Secretary whether air-raid warnings are given in the Borough of Woolwich at night by means of one or more large sirens; whether sirens have been adopted for night warnings in Paris; and what objection there is to loud warnings at night so as to rouse the occupants of upper floors of houses, so that such occupants may take shelter before the gun barrage, with the risk from dud shells, begins?
The Woolwich Arsenal authorities sound a siren to give warning of a threatened air attack to their employés. I understand that in Paris fire-engines go round the streets, blow their hooters, and sound on bugles the "Gare àa vous." The last part of my hon. Friend's question is answered by the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for West Newington on the 30th October.
Is the right hon. Gentleman and his Department now satisfied with the system of warnings in London itself?
Yes, Sir. I gave the answer last week.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the people of London are not satisfied, and that it is the people of London who are most interested; and, in these circumstances, is he prepared to consider some system or scheme which is acceptable to the citizens of London?
It is not easy to judge what the people of London think. I get communications both ways. I have had special thanks from hospitals for the course which we took.
asked the Home Secretary whether he can now state if any decision has been come to as to providing the police with louder whistles in order to give warnings after dark of enemy air raids; and can he state if he has given instructions for posters being placed on all public buildings in the London district giving full notice of what day, night, and all-clear warnings will now be given to the public?
The Commissioner of Police does not consider it necessary to change the whistles used by the police, which are loud and distinctive. The public were recently notified through the Press as to the form in which the "Take Cover" and "All Clear" notices would be given to them, and public notices are about to be posted.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of people, such as cyclists and boy scouts, are using whistles, and will he consider the desirability of issuing notices prohibiting the use of whistles by people other than the police, in order to prevent scares?
I understand there is a certain amount of whistling, and I should like to stop it. I do earnestly hope that people will not use whistles, and if the practice continues we shall have to take special steps.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the most effective way to prevent false alarms is to issue a notice prohibiting the use of whistles or whistles like police whistles?
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the fact that certain motor-cars during the last two or three days have been using very loud whistles and that many people have imagined the whistles were air warnings? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into the matter?
I am afraid I have not come across the whistling motor-cars.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of using red lights with the Morse code in connection with the searchlights for giving warning, which will be the quickest and easiest way?
Police (Compensation for Injury)
asked the Home Secretary whether policemen called up for special duty in connection with air raids are considered to be on duty and eligible for compensation in case of injury if any such is incurred during their way to and from the place where they are ordered to report and their homes?
So far as the Metropolitan Police are concerned the reply is in the affirmative. In the case of county and borough police the matter rests with the local police authorities; but I have no doubt they will take the same view.
Would it not be possible for the President of the Local Government Board to answer on local government matters concerning the police as well as other matters?
This is entirely a police matter.
Unexploded Shells
asked the Minister of Munitions the number of dud shells which fell within the Metropolitan Police area during the recent air raids carried out between 24th September and 1st October, inclusive; and whether these unexploded shells were due to bad workmanship and inspection or to inexpert gunnery?
It is not desirable in the public interest to give the figures asked for. I may say, however, that over the whole period referred to in my hon. and gallant Friend's question less than 1 per cent. of the shells fired were blind. This percentage is not satisfactory, but it was considerably reduced during the latter part of the period. Steps have been taken which should result in still further improvement.
Shelters in Poor Districts
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the prevalence of bronchitis and bronchial pneumonia among children of the poorer class in London is attributed by medical officers to nightly exposure in search of shelter from problematical air raids; and whether, under these circumstances, he will either introduce an efficient system of air-raid warnings which can be heard not only in main streets but in the slums or, alternatively, make the necessary arrangements to afford shelter both from air raids and climatic conditions in the basements of suitable buildings in each district and advertise the fact among the people of those districts?
I have no doubt that injury to children results from their being taken out at night in search of shelter, but I see no reason for believing that a change in the system of warnings would reduce this risk. The safe course is to stay at home whether a raid is expected or not. No efforts are spared to increase the air-raid shelter at the disposal of the public, and it is being added to from day to day.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the poorer districts the houses are not such as to afford any good protection against bombs or anti-aircraft shells? If he is aware of those circumstances, and that the poor people seek shelter whether there is a raid or not, will he consider the advisability of issuing a notice that certain places shall give shelter to these people?
We are giving the matter very anxious consideration from day to day.
Paper Restriction Order
asked the President of the Board of Trade if the new Paper Restriction Order has had the effect of withdrawing the licence previously accorded to advertisers of using posters in stock before the first Restriction Order was made, and that this will result in millions of posters being rendered useless, and in the loss of thousands of pounds to the holders of such stock, without any corresponding saving of paper; and whether, under these circumstances, he will give further consideration to the matter?
The general licence to which my hon. Friend refers was issued with a view to giving poster printers an opportunity of disposing of the stocks in their possession. The question of renewing it is now being reconsidered by the Paper Commission. In the meanwhile, I understand that the Commission are ready to consider applications for special licences and to grant them if satisfied that the existing restriction involves individual firms in a substantial loss without any countervailing economy in the use of paper.
If the poster paper in stock has to be put aside, and replaced by other paper of the permissible size, will not that be a huge waste of paper?
If my hon. Friend has any individual instances to which he can refer me I will be glad to look into them.
In view of the importance of this matter, will the hon. Gentleman receive a small deputation from the trade upon the subject?
I shall be glad to receive an application from the trade in this respect.
Are political parties permitted to use any posters they wish for any purpose?
I should like notice of that question.
Coal Supply
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) if he will make a statement as to the uneven working of the coal pits in Durham; what steps are being taken to remedy an evil to which his personal attention has been called by deputation, personal appeal by Members of Parliament, and resolutions from public bodies of many kinds; (2) if he will make a full statement of what remedy he proposes to deal with unemployment, either by better provision of orders, transport, or alternative employment, as these difficulties are of long standing, and to which his attention was called months ago?
I will answer these questions together as I assume that the latter refers to unemployment in the Durham coalfield. Differences between the amounts of time lost at different pits in the same district are not peculiar to Durham, but occur in all the exporting coalfields and are due mainly to the fact that with a restricted supply of shipping at their disposal purchasers abroad limit their demands to certain qualities of coal only. I have already stated in a written reply to a question asked by the hon. Member for the Chester-le-Street Division that certain steps are being taken which should afford a substantial measure of relief.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that under the new scheme of districts for the distribution of coal, Durham singularly suffers and that there is a desire for some readjustment? It has been brought to the notice of the hon. Gentleman's Department by many bodies. What is the remedy which the hon. Gentleman proposes?
The readjustment of supplies
Companies (Particulars as to Directors) Act, 1917
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any exemptions under Section 2, proviso, of the Companies, (Particulars as to Directors) Act, 1917, have been applied for; if so, whether any have been granted; and on what principle is the Act being administered in this regard?
Applications have been made for exemption from the provisions of Sub-section (2) of Section 2 of the Companies (Particulars as to Directors) Act, and have been granted in some cases. Applications for exemption are favourably considered where the name of the company substantially discloses the names of the directors, or, in the case of a large company, the nature of the business, and the directors are British-born subjects who have not changed their names; but each case must depend on the particular circumstances.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the stringent enforcement of Section 2 of The Companies (Particulars as to Directors) Act, 1917, is prejudicing the position and businesses of persons who are natural-born British subjects, of British parents, and in some cases are serving in the British Army; and whether, in such circum stances, the Board of Trade will use its powers of exemption under the proviso to Section 2 of this Act?
In each of the cases to which my hon. Friend has drawn my attention there is a director who is a naturalised British subject of German origin or a foreign subject who has changed his name. In each case the company would appear to have been formed for the purpose of avoiding the disclosure required by the Registration of Business Names Act, and in such circumstances the Board of Trade would not, as a rule, be justified in using their power of exemption from the obligations of Sub-section 2 of Section 2 of the Companies (Particulars as to Directors) Act.
In each case of directors under disability owing to refusal of exemption to which I have drawn attention, is there not a British officer concerned?
I have no information on that point, but in regard to each particular case which the hon. Gentleman has sent to us there is certainly a strong suspicion of German origin.
Railway Season Tickets
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether it is the intention of the Railway Managing Committee to increase the price of passenger season tickets; whether his attention has been called to the action of one of the South London railway companies which has recently increased the prices of certain suburban season tickets; and will he at once take steps to stop this increase of prices?
As regards the first part of this question I am not aware that there is any present intention of making a general increase in the price of railway season tickets. As regards the second part, I am having inquiries made into the case to which I assume the hon. Gentleman refers, and I will communicate with him when these have been completed.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the London, Brighton, and South-Coast Railway Company have raised the season ticket rates from Balham to Victoria by 2s. 6d., and if I send him the information will he cause inquiries to be made?
I am aware of one or two cases where increases have taken place. If my hon. Friend will communicate with me, I will look into the matter.
Has a railway company the right to increase season ticket rates without the permission of the Government?
Certainly.
South America (British and Irish Exports)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he proposes to take any steps to prevent British and Irish exports from being charged higher freights to South America and other countries than exports sent from Continental ports?
If the hon. and gallant Member will furnish me with particulars of the cases which he has in mind I will have inquiry made.
Food Supplies
Potatoes
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, notwithstanding the abundant crop and comparatively low prices there is a scarcity of potatoes as well as other sorts of perishable food in London; and whether he will use his influence to oblige the railway companies to secure that sufficient supplies are provided weekly, so as to prevent exorbitant charges for crops which are abundant, and to provide the people with necessary food?
I have no reason to think that the railway companies generally are not alive to the importance of the provision of adequate facilities for the conveyance of food. The President of the Board of Trade has already been in communication with the Railway Executive Committee with regard to the difficulty of securing a proper distribution of potatoes, and I should be happy to look into any specific cases of complaint to which the right hon. Gentleman may call my attention.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if the Government have yet decided on the price to be charged for potatoes; if he is aware that in many parts of Ireland the people are unable to pay the price fixed by the Government; and if he will see that the price is reduced or allow a free sale in the open market and compensate the grower if he fails to get the guaranteed price, as is being done in the case of wheat and oats?
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can make any definite statement regarding the potato prices and supply?
I regret that I am not yet in a position to make a definite statement on the potato question, which is still under consideration by the War Cabinet. Last Wednesday's Debate will have made it apparent to the House that the problem is most complicated and requires very thorough consideration. I can assure the hon. Member, however, that there has been, and will be, no unnecessary delay in dealing with it.
Will this question remain in abeyance during the absence of the Prime Minister in Italy or will the War Cabinet deal with it at once?
I am afraid that I cannot answer that question.
When may we expect an answer to this question, which is a very urgent one?
I can only repeat what I have just said, that this is a matter which is awaiting the decision of the War Cabinet.
Is there any foundation for the statement, which was apparently an official statement, in the Press on Friday, that the Government has settled a scheme, and why were not these things considered before?
I am afraid that I cannot add anything to what I have said. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Food Controller will be in his place to-morrow.
Can the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House say when the War Cabinet will give a decision in this matter?
My hon. Friend is mistaken in saying that it is being settled by the War Cabinet. We have had it before the War Cabinet, but we are leaving it to the Food Controller himself to decide. That does not mean that there is unnecessary delay in coming to a decision on his part. No time will be lost in coming to a decision.
Food Controller's Regulations
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the premature publication of the Food Controller's prospective Regulations is mainly responsible for the gambling by profiteers in the commodities affected; and whether, under these circumstances, he will instruct that Department to exercise the utmost reticence as to their proposed action?
I have been asked to reply. I am not aware that there has been any premature publication of the Food Controller's Regulations. The control of commodities necessarily involves precedent consultation with persons interested in the trades concerned, but my experience is that the persons so consulted maintain a proper reticence as to the intention of the Department. If the hon. Member will adduce any specific case of the leakage to which he refers, I will cause inquiries to be made.
Is not the statement of the Controller that unless more economy is practised these articles will have to be controlled, a straight tip to the profiteer to get busy?
I will bring the hon. Member's remark to the notice of the Controller.
Hoarding Supplies
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government will consider the advisability of offering a reward to any person laying information which shall lead to the conviction of any person or persons for hoarding foodstuffs essential for the poor?
I have been asked to reply. The difficulty as regards alleged breaches of the Food Hoarding Order usually consists in the absence of specific evidence on which to found a charge. The offer of a reward is in itself an undesirable expedient, and would, I am afraid, merely increase the number of groundless complaints. But action will be promptly taken if the hon. Member will inform me of any case in which he thinks it is required, and will adduce sufficient evidence to justify it.
Meat
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether an official maximum retail price list for meat came into force in the city of Glasgow on 8th October; how many of the London borough food committees have yet adopted maximum retail meat price lists so as to give the consumers guidance regarding the prices to be paid; whether the Food Controller intends to insist on the issue of such maximum retail meat price lists by the food committees; and, if not, how can consumers determine whether the charges are within the 20 per cent. profit allowed to traders?
The food control committee for Glasgow issued a scale of maximum retail meat prices, as from 8th October, for the month of October. Food control committees in nine London boroughs have already issued scales of maximum retail prices; the other committees in the London area are engaged in preparing such scales, and it is hoped that in a short time maximum retail scales will be in operation in all the London boroughs. The Food Controller recognises importance of issuing at the earliest possible moment maximum retail scales of meat prices in every area for the information of traders and of the public, and has directed committees in this sense.
Tea
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the wealthier classes have laid in stores of tea, sugar, and other food commodities, thereby decreasing the amount of food essentials available for poorer people; and whether he will now specify the foodstuffs which it is illegal to hoard, and what amount of each variety it shall be permissible to store without fear of prosecution under the new Regulations?
I have no evidence that the hoarding of food has been or is being practised to any appreciable extent. The Food Hoarding Order prohibits the acquisition of any article of food in excess of ordinary requirements; and in any proceedings the burden of showing what quantity of food is so required rests upon the person charged. I shall be glad if the hon. Member will bring to my notice any definite instances of hoarding of which he is aware, together with such evidence as will justify action being taken in respect thereof.
Will the hon. Gentleman say what the ordinary requirements are in view of the fact that wealthy people are hoarding food in large quantities, and in view of the fact that poor people cannot afford to compete with the rich in keeping this food, and will the hon. Member state how much of each particular commodity it will be legal for these people to hoard?
All I can say is that all that the Departments concerned ask for is proof. Would the hon. Gentleman suggest that the Department is going to examine every person's supply?
Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to inspect grocers' books, where he will find all the proof that is necessary?
As there is more sugar actually sold this year than last year, does not that prove that there is hoarding on the part of somebody?
Pork
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, whether he can give any information as to the practice by which dealers pay bonuses to farmers over and above the control price for pork, and so obtain pigs which would ordinarily go to dealers who adhere to the regulations; whether he is aware that the present scale of fines for such offences is quite inadequate, in view of the profits made; whether it is the intention of the Food Controller to fix a price for fresh and partly-cured bacon, which would render the giving of bonuses unprofitable; and, if not, will he take steps to obtain power under the Defence of the Realm Act to order the closing down of the businesses of persons convicted more than once of such offences?
Complaints as to the giving of bonuses to farmers in the North of Ireland, in order to secure pigs, have been made to this Department, and prosecutions have been undertaken in Ireland in consequence. The question as to the amount of the fines to be imposed in any particular case is one for the tribunal concerned. I have no reason to doubt that the maximum penalties provided for under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, which include imprisonment as well as fine, are adequate. The Food Controller has fixed prices for green or cured bacon and is about to fix prices for smoked bacon, which should render the giving of bonuses unprofitable; the fourth part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
Will the hon. Gentleman advise the Controller to take off the control in respect of freshly-killed pigs, and if he cannot do that will he fix the maximum prices for the wholesaler and the retailer, as some of the retailers are making 70 per cent. on the retail, and some of the wholesalers are making from 60 to 70 per cent. on the wholesale?
I think that the hon. Member had better put down a question. I cannot carry all these details.
Is it intended to fix the price of partly-cured bacon at once?
I thought that I had dealt with that already in the answer to the question.
Decrease of Grants (Ireland)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), whether he is aware that a feeling exists in Ireland that the Treasury should deal more generously towards the agricultural industry, in view of the necessity of increasing the food supply; and whether he is aware that many agricultural committees in Ireland have had to drop some of their schemes on account of the Department cutting down instead of increasing their grants; and, in view of these facts, will he take steps to obtain for the agricultural industry in Ireland more generous treatment than they have done so far?
The Department of Agriculture has made very considerable expenditure during this year in connection with the tillage scheme, and I hope will find itself in a position to give such aid as the circumstances of the time require.
Questions
Indo-British Association
asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the formation of the Indo-British Association in London; whether he is aware of the objects of the Association; and whether any of those composing it, Lord Sydenham, Mr. C. J. Shorrock, Sir David Yule, Sir John Hewett, Sir Francis Younghusband, Mr. Jackson, and Sir Charles Macleod, are in receipt of moneys from Indian funds?
The public Press has stated that an Indo-British Association has been formed, and that its object is to protect the interests in India of British and Indians alike. It is gathered from the same source that among the members of the committee are retired civil and military officers in receipt of pensions or allowances in respect of their former service in India.
France (Secret Session of Parliament)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has obtained or will obtain through the British Ambassador in Paris information concerning the offer made by Germany to France through M. Briand?
I do not think it would be proper for me to reply to questions based on what was alleged to have been said at a Secret Session of an Allied Parliament.
Does that mean that the Government are blissfully ignorant of all these most important negotiations?
It means what it says.
Italy (Signor Lazzari)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any reports or information concerning the recent circular sent out in Italy by Signer Lazzari; if so, what information can be given to the House on this affair; and, if not, whether he will ask the British Ambassador in Rome to furnish a Report?
My information is in the main of the same tenor as that which has appeared in the public Press, and I see no need for any further Report.
Is it not desirable in the public interest to have some better source of information than the public Press, which is often misled?
Allies' Conferences
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Conference of the Allied Governments is still to be held; whether any change has been made in its purpose or scope; and whether the Russian Government has been informed of or concurred in that change?
I can add nothing to the reply returned to the hon. Member for the Elland Division on 18th October.
asked the Secrel tary of State for Foreign Affairs whether arrangements have been made to hold two Conferences of the Allies in the near future, one on war aims, referred to by himself and the Minister for Blockade, and another on the conduct of the War, referred to by the Leader of the House?
The Conference on the conduct of the War will, I hope, take place in the middle of the month. I cannot at present give any information about the Conference on war aims.
Cement (Export to Holland)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many licences for the export of cement to Holland granted before the issue of the Order in Council are still unexecuted; whether these outstanding licences will be revoked or not; and whether the two ships loaded under licence granted before the issue of the Order in Council have been permitted to sail?
I am glad to take this opportunity to express my regret for and to correct the reply which I made on the 29th October to a supplementary question of the hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch, when I said that I understood that the cement being shipped to Holland was covered by a licence granted before the issue of the Order in Council dealing with Scandinavian and Dutch trade. No licences were in fact required for the export of cement to Holland before the 8th October, when this Order in Council come into operation, and only one licence has since been granted, and though this was applied for before the 8th October, it was not, as a matter of fact, issued until the 9th October. Since then no further licences have been issued. It is not intended to revoke this licence or to stop any ships which may be loaded under it.
Considering the statements in to-day's papers that there is a great shortage of raw material for cement in Germany, is it not absolutely necessary for us to stop any cement going through?
Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will send me the extract from the paper to which he refers?
Has not the right hon. Gentleman seen the "Times" and the "Morning Post" this morning, and the paragraph in the "Times" stating that the more cement sent into Holland the less has Holland to get from Germany?
I saw a notice in this morning's papers concerning concrete, which I would remind the hon. and gallant Member is made also of sand and gravel.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that the building of munition factories in this country has ceased as a result of the want of cement which has been exported to Holland?
I am not aware of that fact.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the Minister of Pensions whether a gratuity of £15 has been awarded to the discharged soldier, Private Richard Evan Howells, in respect of talipes (club foot) which it has been certified the man does not suffer from; and will he say what pension or other allowance will be given to Private Howells in respect of the wounds received by him while on service in Dublin on 28th April, 1916?
Exhaustive inquiries have been made in this case and it has not been found possible to obtain corroboration of Private Howell's statement that he received a bayonet wound in Dublin. As his disability was reported to be neither due to nor aggravated by military service he was awarded a gratuity of £15. If he still claims that his disability was caused by his military service it is, of course, open to him to bring his case before the Pensions Appeal Tribunal. He has been examined on two occasions and his disability in each case has been described as talipes equinovarus.
Criminal Law Amendment Bill
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the state of public business and the unlikelihood of any progress being made with the Criminal Law Amendment Bill this Session, he will consider whether he can use his powers under the Defence of the Realm Act, or otherwise, to provide safeguards against the worst dangers by which soldiers are beset and the grossest carelessness in communicating disease?
I regret the opposition to the Criminal Law Amendment Bill, the passage of which would, in my opinion, reduce the evil referred to in the question. It is for the Army Council to consider whether anything can be effected by a Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act.
Military Service
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Home Secretary whether a conscientious objector named Myers is confined to Armley Gaol who has developed signs of mental instability and been placed under observation; and whether any reason can be given for the man's breakdown?
This prisoner was placed under observation on the 4th June last, but since then he has shown no signs of mental derangement, and the special observation ceased some time ago. The medical officer regards him as naturally unstable when subjected to any stress.
When he was under observation, was he in hospital or doing his ordinary work?
I cannot say without reference.
asked the Home Secretary the reason for instituting a policy of persecuting conscientious objectors employed under the Home Office Committee by imposing heavy fines for trivial offences; whether many men have had all their wages taken away from them for periods varying from ten to twenty weeks; whether the motive of this policy is to rob these men of their small wage of 4s. 8d. per week of fifty-four working hours; and whether, in view of the provisions of the Truck Acts, he proposes to take any action in the matter?
No such policy as the hon. Member suggests has ever been instituted by the Committee. In a few instances where a conscientious objector sent out to work under a private employer has been sent back after a short time for idleness his return fare has been deducted from his wages. In all other cases the fines which it is necessary to impose to enforce industry and discipline have been much smaller than the sum suggested. I am advised that the Truck Acts do not apply.
Questions
Submarine Crews (Internment in Holland)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the sailors of our submarine E 17 which was wrecked outside Dutch waters some time ago are interned in Holland and forbidden by the Admiralty to try to escape; whether a German submarine previously interned in Holland has been released and the German sailors belonging to her also released; and, if so, why the Foreign Office permitted this discrimination in favour of Germany?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the latter part, the German sailors were released because the Dutch Government, after an inquiry before the International Tribunal, decided that the submarine had been wrongly interned. The reasons for the release of the German submarine have not been satisfactorily explained to His Majesty's Government, and the whole matter, together with the, case of the E 17, is being further considered.
Munitions
Munition Workers, Dublin
asked the Minister of Munitions whether, in giving employment to munition workers in Dublin, preference is given to the widows, orphans, and sisters of soldiers; and, if not, will he give orders to the local Labour Exchange that such preference is to be given in future?
All recruiting of munition workers for munition factories in Dublin is done through the Employment Exchanges. I am informed by the Ministry of Labour that the instructions to the Irish Exchanges are that in the submission of applicants to employers preference should be given to dependants of soldiers when industrial qualifications are equal.
Imperial Bolt Works, Hamilton
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has received a complaint that at the Imperial Bolt Works, Hamilton, the girls employed are not being paid in accordance with the Statutory Orders made by his Department; and, if so, whether the matter is being inquired into, with a view to enforcing compliance with the Orders?
A complaint was recently received that this firm was not paying women according to the Orders regulating the wages of women on munitions work. The firm is not controlled, and the Orders had not been applied to it. An investigation has been ordered with a view to seeing whether the case is one in which the powers of the Department respecting women's wages can now be exercised?
Exhibition Hall, Glasgow
asked the Minister of Munitions whether his Department has sanctioned the expenditure of £17,000 on the erection of an exhibition hall in the west end of Glasgow; if so, whether this expenditure will fall on his Department or on the ratepayers of that city; and is there any guarantee that the expense will be limited to that figure?
The Ministry of Munitions have issued a licence to the corporation of Glasgow for the erection of an exhibition hall at a cost not exceed in £17,000. The hall will be available for use from time to time by the Ministry of Munitions for storage purposes, but no part of the cost of erection will be borne by the Ministry. In reply to the third part of the question, the licence is for an expenditure not exceeding £17,000. This estimate is regarded as adequate; it was arrived at after considering all possible economies in labour and material.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that several public bodies have protested against this expense in wartime?
The information we have is that the licence was issued at the request of the Board of Trade on the initiative of the Glasgow Corporation.
Workers (Ejectment from Dwellings)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the shortage of houses in Hereford and other parts of the country; whether he is aware that, in order to secure the ejectment of a tenant, the practice of purchasing the house is becoming common; and whether consideration will be given to some amendment of the law to prevent the ejectment of people, especially in overcrowded munition areas, who are unable to find other housing accommodation?
I have been asked by my right hon. Friend to answer this question. The Minister's attention has been drawn to the facts set out in the first two parts of this question. With regard to the third part, my right hon. Friend already has powers under the Defence of the Realm Regulations to schedule an area as a special area when he is of opinion that the ejectment from their dwellings of munition workers is calculated to interfere with their work. In such an area no proceedings can be taken to eject a munition worker without the Minister's previous consent. This Regulation has already been applied to Barrow, and my right hon. Friend is considering whether it is desirable to apply it to other places.
Questions
King's Regulations
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the dissatisfaction felt both by officers and men with the Regulation which prohibits all personal intercourse or communication between officers and soldiers except through the medium of a non-commissioned officer; whether he considers such a Regulation compatible with the spirit of democracy or with the entirely new conditions which have arisen in the War; whether, it is in practice ignored at the front and found unnecessary in the French Army without any loss in discipline; and whether the Regulation will now be abrogated?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on the 30th October to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Lanark.
Does that mean that there will be no change in the present Regulations?
Not at all; but Articles 439 and 453 of the King's Regulations will continue to exist.
Does the hon. Gentleman consider that this is compatible with the spirit of democracy?
I cannot discuss so large a question by way of question and answer.
Coal Gas (Motor Cars)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government wish to encourage or to discourage the employment of coal gas for the propulsion of motor cars?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. The Government see no objection to the use of coal gas for the propulsion of motor cars so long as a scarcity of gas for other purposes is not caused thereby.
Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to make a statement that facilities will be given to people to employ coal gas so long as there is no scarcity, in view of the fact that they are allowing it to escape at certain munition factories because they do not know what to do with it. There is no scarcity at the moment?
So far as I am aware hose facilities are already given.
Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to state whether a man shall be allowed to carry coal gas under compression on his motor car?
If he makes application in the ordinary way I do not think he will have any difficulty in getting facilities for getting coal gas
Premium Bonds
asked the Prime Minister when he intends to move for a Select Committee to consider the issue of premium bonds?
I hope that the Committee will be set up during this week.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider enlarging the scope of the terms of reference, so as to bring in the setting up of a totalisator at all these race meetings?
Business of the House (Early Adjournments)
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that want of time has been given as the reason for the indefinite postponement of the Education Bill and the delay in resuming the consideration of the Petroleum Bill, he will explain the unusually early hour at which the House adjourned last Monday and Tuesday; and whether he will in future refrain from adjourning the House before eleven when work of urgent importance demands attention?
The hon. Member is misinformed. I do not adjourn the House.
In such an event will the right hon. Gentleman arrange to take other business? Surely he is aware that it is the best time to get business through?
Business is put down to be got through by a given date. As it is, I am very well pleased.
As a matter of fact, did not the Government move the Adjournment on Monday and Tuesday?
I do not think so.
Mischievous Questions
Standing Orders (Revision)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will at the earliest opportunity move an alteration in the Standing Orders of the House empowering Mr. Speaker, during the continuance of the War, to prevent any Question being printed or asked which, in his opinion, is calculated to injure the country or its Allies, or give information, encouragement, or assistance to the enemy?
As at present advised, I do not think it is necessary to take the course suggested; but the whole question is being carefully considered by the Government.
How many questions by the hon. Member (Mr. Peto) would have fallen under this category?
Questions
Enemy Aliens
asked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to bring before the War Cabinet a proposal that no person having close German affinities, either by reason of German birth or marriage to a German woman, shall be considered eligible for the exercise of highly important functions in the government of the country during the War?
The answer is in the negative.
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that the spy system in Germany has been brought to such a stage that it may now be considered a third arm in military operations, and in view of that will he reconsider his reply?
I quite recognise the effectiveness of the German spy system, but I do not think it is affected by this question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his reply, if I except from the reference Lord Milner and German relatives of the Royal Family?
asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the fact that Mr. Laszlo, with a view to obtaining naturalisation, represented to the Home Secretary that he was loyal to this country and desired and intended to become a loyal subject of the Crown, and that subsequent events have proved that representation to be untrue, he will under the powers conferred on him by the Naturalisation Act of 1914 revoke Mr. Laszlo's certificate of naturalisation?
As appears from my answer to my hon. and learned Friend on 1st November, Mr. Laszlo did not make these representations before obtaining his certificate of naturalisation, and I have at present no power to revoke his certificate. I hope that wider powers may be given by the Bill which has been prepared and is now under consideration with the self-governing Dominions. In the meantime I have sufficient powers under the Defence of the Realm Régulations to deal with Mr. Laszlo in his capacity of a British subject.
Did not Mr. Laszlo take the oath of allegiance before obtaining his certificate of naturalisation, and is that not a representation as to his loyalty to this country?
The oath is always taken after the certificate is granted.
Has he, in fact, been proved to be disloyal, or is it merely a case of suspicion?
I think I have given a full statement.
Were not representations given amongst other representations by Mr. Laszlo that he was a loyal subject and attached to this country and desired to remain a loyal subject, in order to obtain naturalisation?
No, Sir; I can only revoke a certificate of naturalisation on the grounds of false statements made before the certificate is granted. The statements to which the hon. Member refers were made after the certificate was granted.
asked the Home Secretary whether he has completed his inquiries into the cases of Joseph Tabbush, an unnaturalised Turk, and Martin Hirschberg, a German naturalised in 1913, both trading as marine insurance brokers in Manchester, both doing business with the Government, and obtaining information as to sailings and arrivals of steamers; and whether he would consider the desirability of preventing alien enemies or associates from continuing business of this character, having regard to the action of the Germans on the high seas?
I consulted with my right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Trade, on this matter. Tabbush, who was born in Aleppo, has been in this country since the age of thirteen, is married to a British wife, and has a brother serving in the British Army, and there are no grounds for suspecting him as in any way likely to assist the enemy. The case of Hirschberg has, I understand, been fully investigated by the Admiralty, who are satisfied that he may be allowed to continue in his present employment. It does not appear that either of these men does business with the Government or obtains any information as to the sailings or arrivals of vessels which is not open to the general public.
As they are the marine insurance brokers and have special means of finding out this information, does the right hon. Gentleman think it desirable that they should be allowed to remain in business?
I understand that careful inquiries have been made. I am sure that if the Admiralty held the views of my hon. Friend they would not allow them to remain in business.
asked the Home Secretary whether a German named Dunricher has been twice interned but is now living close to Aldershot Camp; if so, why he was released; and whether he will consider the desirability of not allowing alien enemies to reside in the neighbourhood of Aldershot?
Mr. Andre von Dumreicher (or Dumreicher Bey), who was for many years before the War in the service of the Egyptian Government, and rendered good service there, was released from internment in October, 1915, because he was considered by all the authorities who knew him to be thoroughly trustworthy. He has for a number of years had a house at Farnham, and spent his leave there, and when the permits of alien enemies to reside in prohibited areas were revised in 1916 by the Commissioners appointed by my predecessor he was allowed to stay there. As to the last part of the question, I will communicate with the military authorities, with whom this matter rests.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not see that at this period of the War it is undesirable that Germans, however loyal they are, or however loyal you may think them to be, should be allowed to live near a camp?
That may be, but the matter is one for the Army authorities, and not for me. I will bring the matter to their attention.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that a pure German, only naturalised in April, 1914, is allowed to be the managing director of a munition factory in this country, he can say why a lady born in this country, whose father was English and who has two sons now fighting in the British Army, was refused employment in translating the letters of German prisoners because her mother, who died forty years ago, was German?
I cannot possibly answer this question without knowing the circumstances under which this lady's application was refused.
Inter-Allied Conference
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the speech made within the last week by M. Terestchenko, the Russian Foreign Minister, to the Provisional Parliament of Russia, in which he discussed at length the war aims proposed to be put forward by Russia at the coming Conference in Paris; and whether he is taking steps to remove the misapprehension of the Russian Government that the Conference is called to discuss war aims?
I have seen an account in the Press of the speech made by M. Terestchenk on October 29th. I do not know whether it is correctly reported. I am confident that the Russian Government is under no misapprehension as to the scope of the forthcoming Conference at Paris.
Has the right hon. Gentleman seen reports in the Russian papers expressing great surprise at the answers given by his right hon. Friend last week that the Allied Conference was not going to be on war aims?
I am not talking of the Russian Press. I am not sure that I have seen those. I was talking of the Russian Government.
Allied Military Authorities
asked the Prime Minister whether there is an Allied General Staff to work out strategy from the point of view of the theory of the single front, and counter the joint military action of the Central Powers?
The closest cooperation and consultation exists between the Allied military authorities, and everything possible has been and is being done to strengthen it.
Government Departments (Report of Committee)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to place before Parliament the Report of the Committee on the Expansion of Government Departments, presided over by the Paymaster-General?
This Report was made for the information and guidance of the Cabinet, and it is not proposed to publish it.
Enemy Propaganda (Italy)
asked what steps are being taken by the Government to bring to the notice of the British people the falsehoods regarding them disseminated amongst the Italian troops by German and Austrian agents and by means of special propaganda bombs or dropped from aeroplanes, and to deny the same?
The Italian military authorities are being asked to let us have copies of any German or Austrian propaganda that may be disseminated amongst the Italian troops in the manner suggested. The best means of defeating the enemy's object in circulating the statements will then be considered, but I cannot promise that the means selected will be made public.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Press states that the Italians were told that our troops had taken part in the Turin riots, and will he give a categorical denial to that?
I do deny it.
Will the hon. Gentleman not publish the statements made by the enemy to the Italians, and let the people of this country know what those statements are?
I will ask the Italian authorities for copies of the statements, and when I receive them I will have the matter considered, but a point to be remembered is that it may really increase the value of the German propaganda if we publish the statements.
Irish Revolutionary Party
The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Major HUNT:
62. To ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that some years ago the late Duke of Norfolk approached the Vatican in regard to the Fenian revolutionary agitation, and that numbers of the Irish Catholic priests are now supporting the Irish revolutionary republican party known as Sinn Fein, the Government will approach the Vatican and request that the Irish priests be prohibited from participating in this revolutionary movement?
Before asking this question, I should like to apologise for putting down a statement in the question about the late Duke of Norfolk, which was based on wrong information. I am very sorry that the mistake was made.
I can only say that I am not aware of the circumstances to which the hon. Member refers.
Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question? Is there any reason why you cannot do it now?
If the hon. Member considers the matter he will see that there are many reasons. Any such suggestion would have to be very carefully considered before a decision was come to.
War Savings Meeting (Albert Hall)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the frequent appeals made by members of the Government to the public to refrain from railway travelling, he will say how many persons from the provinces were officially invited to attend the war savings meeting held at the Albert Hall on 22nd October?
Three thousand one hundred and twenty-nine invitations were issued to persons outside the London area, but, as I informed my hon. Friend on the 29th ultimo, many of the honorary officers of the local committees attended other conferences and meetings besides that held at the Albert Hall.
Can the hon. Gentleman say whether free railway passes were issued to those persons who were invited to attend?
No, Sir.
Were free railway passes issued to some of them?
No. Sir. In answer to a question put by the hon. Member for Cricklade a few days ago I stated that delegates who chose to claim for certain expenses connected with their attendance at the meeting would have those payments recognised. The hon. Member for Cricklade has a question down for to-morrow as to the actual expenditure.
Loans
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state at the latest available date the amounts issued of War Loan at 3½percent., War Loan 4½per cent., War Loan 5 per cent., Five per Cent. Exchequer Bonds, Six per Cent. Exchequer Bonds, Treasury Bills, and also the amount of loans owing to the United States by the British Government?
I will circulate a statement in the course of the next two or three days giving the hon. Member the latest available figures.
Poaching Prosecutions, Chatham
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the case of Charles Holloway, who was charged at Chatham with poaching in connection with killing rabbits; if he is aware that the clerk of the Court stated that there could be no change in the law without an Act of Parliament or a Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act; if he is aware that the man in question was fined 30s.; and whether, in view of the statement of the President of the Board of Agriculture that rabbits were now determined to be vermin, and that any person had a right to take rabbits from any land, he proposes to take any action in the matter?
My attention had not previously been drawn to this case, and I am making inquiry. But I may say at once that the President of the Board of Agriculture has never made the statement attributed to him. If the hon. Member will look at the OFFICIAL REPORT for 1st August last, he will find the statement actually made by my right hon. Friend
Catholic Schools, Glasgow
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the fact that the Glasgow School Board is in receipt of rates from Catholic citizens, he will state on what grounds it refuses free books to the children of Catholic soldiers whilst giving them to the children of soldiers of other denominations; and whether this system of penalising one class of the community has been brought to the notice of the War Office and of the National Service Ministry, who are responsible for calling the parents of these children to the Colours?
I would refer my hon. Friend to my answer to his question of the 25th ultimo, to which I have nothing to add.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Glasgow School Board in this matter has been actuated by religious prejudice?
I should be very sorry to think so. The Glasgow School Board are exercising powers conferred on them by Statute?
Could not the Glasgow School Board do this if it so desired?
It is entirely a matter for the discretion of the Board.
Public Assistance
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he will grant the Return on the increase of public assistance, generally known as the Drage Return, in an amended form, standing on the Notice Paper of this House?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on 17th August last to a similar question by the hon. Member for Finsbury. The various Government Departments concerned are being consulted on the question whether, and, if so, how far, it would be practicable at the present time to supplement the information already published.
Accidents (Government Vehicles)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the increase in the number of accidents to vehicles and properties due to negligence of servants of the Crown, owing to the number of persons so employed and the conditions under which they work, he will say whether the Government accepts liability when negligence is established?
As the Crown is not liable in tort the Government does not in cases of this nature accept liability in law, but, although this is so, every such case is carefully considered, and when the circumstances appear to warrant it an ex gratia payment is made to the person who may have suffered damage.
Can my right hon. Friend say in how many cases these ex gratia payments have been made?
If my hon. Friend will put down a question I shall be very pleased to give him an answer.
By whom was the decision made? Is it by the Department whose car is alleged to be at fault or by some other Government Department?
I should be very glad to answer if my right hon. Friend will put down a question.
I shall be content if my hon. Friend will consider the suggestion conveyed to him.
Submarine Warfare (Skipper Crisp)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty the name of the skipper of the fishing boat which fought the German submarine until his boat sank and whose heroic conduct was recently announced?
The skipper referred to is Mr. Thomas Crisp, R.N.R., who, as announced in Friday's "Gazette," has been awarded, posthumously, the Victoria Cross. My hon. Friend will, of course, have already read with the greatest admiration and pride the account of this gallant officer's conduct published in the Press on Saturday.
This is very satisfactory, but will the right hon. Gentleman give the names of the gallant crew?
The name of the skipper is Crisp.
Why should it be left to the illustrated papers to give publicity to this?
Air Services
Promotion
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it is the custom to transfer pilots who have been injured on war service from the Royal Naval Air Service to the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve; whether in such event they lose seniority; and what is the difference in pay of a Royal Naval Air Service pilot and that of the rank to which he is transferred in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve?
In cases in which Royal Naval Air Service pilots are permanently unfit for further flying duties on account of war service every effort is made to prevent their discharge if they can be employed in any capacity other than flying. If they can be so employed it is now the practice to permit them to retain their flight rank and seniority, but they do not draw flying pay. The question of seniority does not, therefore, arise.
The relative grade pay of Royal Naval Air Service and Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers is as follows: Flight Sub-Lieutenant, 10s. a day; Flight Lieutenant, 12s. a day; Sub-Lieutenant, R.N.V.R., 7s. 6d. a day; Lieutenant, R.N.V.R., 11s. a day.
I may add that only probationary flight officers and officers who become unfit for flying, but who have not had war service, are transferred to equivalent rank in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these men have lost their seniority for two years, and that junior men have been promoted?
It is quite open to the hon. Member to make representations on the subject.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that in future these men do not lose their seniority?
The answer to the question covers that.
Is it absolutely essential that these men should be transferred?
I will look into that.
Questions
Flax Crop (Ireland)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland), whether he is aware that some farmers in North Louth grew this year a small acregae of flax and that, not having been apprised of the Order to keep some of the flax so as to save the seed for next year, the Order not having been properly advertised, they failed to keep the flax; whether he is aware that they have already been fined at petty sessions for not doing so, and that the Department have now refused to issue licences to flax millowners to scutch flax for those men with the result that the flax is lying on their hands and that their year's hard labour has been lost as they are now deprived of the opportunity of putting their produce on the market; and will he see that these men are no longer penalised for not obeying an Order which, had they known of, they would have complied with?
I am informed that some cases of failure to comply with the Flax Seed (Ireland) Order by farmers in county Louth have been reported to the Department of Agriculture. Proceedings have been taken at petty sessions, and a fine of 2s. 6d. imposed upon the defaulters. The Flax Seed Order was extensively advertised, and special steps were taken in county Louth to make it known to all concerned. Licences to have flax scutched are not being issued to the defaulters at present, and I am informed that it is not the intention of the Department to issue these licences until the flax of the growers who complied with the Order had been dealt with.
Prisoners of War
asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) what steps have been or are being taken for carrying out the agreement entered into with the German Government in December, 1916, for the exchange of our civilian prisoners of war over forty-five years of age, including men of the mercantile marine, and for the repatriation of prisoners of war who are invalids and incapable of further service; how many of such civilian prisoners of war have already been exchanged and brought to England; and how many of such invalids have already been repatriated?
I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to my replies to questions by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Southampton on the 29th October, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes of the 31st October. I am happy to add that from information just received it is believed that the outstanding points of difficulty are now on the point of solution. Up to the present sixty-nine civilian prisoners of war over the age of forty-five years have been repatriated, and 436 invalid civilians. Of combatant prisoners of war 2,423 have also been repatriated direct from Germany. This number is made up of 171 officers and non-commissioned officers, and 2,252 rank and file. In addition to the above, eighty-five officers and 774 other ranks have recently been repatriated from Switzerland as a result of the Hague Agreement.
In view of the long suspense in which the relatives have been kept, will the hon. Gentleman take the earliest possible opportunity of giving publicity to the fact that these stages are really commenced?
I have no doubt that this will be done, but I will mention the matter to my Noble Friend who has charge of the Department.
British Shipbuilding (Foreign Orders)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether his attention has been drawn to the undesirability of British shipbuilding yards being unduly devoted for some time after the end of the War to the execution of foreign orders to the prejudice of home shipping and commercial interests; and whether he will introduce legislation, if necessary, to reserve power to the Government to regulate the priority of execution of all shipbuilding contracts entered into during the War?
The important point referred to by my hon. Friend has for some time past engaged the serious attention of the Shipping Controller; as I pointed out in reply to similar questions addressed to me on 31st October, the present position is safeguarded by exist- ing legislation, and as to the future the legal position is now under review. I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the answer which I gave on 31st October.
School Children's Meals
( by Private Notice ) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that exceptional distress prevails amongst the children of the poor in Dublin; whether he has been informed that the Irish Women's Reform League have stated they are unable to meet the demands made on them for the feeding of necessitous school children; whether he can state what measures he is taking in conjunction with the Local Government Board to supply this immediate want; and whether he will introduce legislation to enable the same financial opportunities to Ireland as those existing in England?
My attention has been called to the conditions with regard to poor children in Dublin, and to the statement of the Irish Women's Reform League to which the hon. Member refers I understand the corporation have levied the maximum rate of 1d. in the £ for feeding of necessitous school children, and that the School Feeding Committee estimate they will require further funds if they are to continue feeding the same number of children up to the end of the financial year, when a new rate can be struck.
The Local Government Board have been able to supplement the funds provided by the Corporation of Dublin, and, as I informed the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin last Thursday, they are keeping in view the possibility of further needs which may arise for the provision of free meals for really necessitous cases. The question of legislation for the purpose of removing the limit at present imposed on the amount of the local rate which can be struck for providing funds for feeding school children arises upon a Bill which, I understand, has been drafted by the hon. Member for St. Stephen's Green, and I hope to be in a position to deal with it promptly.
May I point out to the right hon. Gentleman that he has not answered the question, what he is going to do to relieve the distress? I will draw attention to the matter on the Adjournment.
In the answer given last Thursday, was it not stated by the right hon. Gentleman that the Local Government Board have funds for this purpose, and will he see that they are released to provide food, seeing that last Thursday it was stated that hundreds of children were turned away from the doors of the depots where they were providing meals?
If the hon. Member reads the answer he will see what the Local Government Board has done and proposes to do. As to the turning away of children applying for food at the depots, I called for a report, and in the report I have received I find it stated that meals have been supplied not only to necessitous children attending school, but to the children attending school whose parents are well able to look after them. I am not suggesting that there is not distress in some portions of the population which must be dealt with, but, as the hon. Member knows, this question cannot be dealt with in an indiscriminate way; it must be dealt with on the lines I have indicated.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question, Were not hundreds of children turned away hungry, and can the Local Government Board give £100 or £1 for the purpose of feeding the children?
The hon. Member is an Alderman of the City of Dublin, and I hope he knows what action has been taken. If he does not know, I am quite sure that the Lord Mayor of Dublin will inform him, or I will inform him myself. This is a very delicate subject to be dealt with by question and answer across the floor of the House, but every effort will be made to deal with it where real need exists.
The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question—whether, since last Thursday, they have given one penny piece towards providing food for children who were turned away hungry?
I have nothing to add to what I have said.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider this a favourable opportunity to recommend to the Food Controller the removal of the maximum price upon potatoes, which form a staple food of the people there?
I do not think that has any immediate bearing on the question we have been discussing.
Madras High Court
asked the Secretary of State for India if the Imperial Government has deviated from the policy laid down in the Charter Act that the appointment of judges to the Madras High Court should rest with His Majesty; if these powers have been delegated to the Governor-General in Council; and, if not, why two of the four temporary judges acting since 1914 have been placed on the permanent strength of the High Court of Madras?
The Government of India Act, 1915, empowers the Governor-General in Council to appoint temporary additional judges for a period not exceeding two years. Four additional judges had been so appointed and were serving in Madras when the Secretary of State in Council decided to increase the permanent strength of the Court by two judges. The two persons whom His Majesty has been pleased to appoint permanently to the Court, under the provisions of the Indian High Courts Act of 1861, were at the time of their appointment serving as temporary assistant judges. There has been no deviation from the policy laid down by Parliament.
Representation of the People Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether, on the consideration of the Amendments to the new Fourth Schedule of the Representation of the People Bill, he will allow the Committee of the whole House a free Vote on the matter and not put on the Government Whips to count if there should be any Divisions?
I do not think that the Government can take the course suggested.
Judges (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has recently been called to the fact that there are at present seventy-nine judges in Scotland administering justice in civil cases; and whether he proposes to take any action in war time, by consolidation of their jurisdiction or otherwise, to reduce the number of such judges, in view of the fact that there were in 1915 only 148 cases of appeal to sheriffs-principal in thirteen out of the fifteen sheriffdoms, being an average of eleven cases per sheriffdom, and having regard to the salaries paid to the holders of these offices?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. In reply to the second part, I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the answers to similar questions which he received on the 28th of February, and the 24th of July.
Is that the answer in which the right hon. Gentleman said that the sheriffs had so many extra duties to perform, and if so what are the extra duties?
If my hon. Friend will consult the answer which I gave he will see that the duties are fully stated.
Orders of the Day
Consolidated Fund (No. 5) Bill
Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Representation of the People Bill
Considered in Committee.—[Progress, 25 th October. ]
[SIR DONALD MACLEAN, Deputy-Chairman, in the Chair.]
Redistribution of Seats
New Schedule
1. The names, contents, and boundaries of each Parliamentary borough and county and division thereof shall be as specified in this Schedule.
2. The areas mentioned in the second and last columns of this Schedule shall be taken to be those areas as constituted on the first day of October, nineteen hundred and seventeen: Provided that any misnomer or inaccurate description of any of those areas in those columns shall not in any way prevent or abridge the operation of this Act with respect to the subject of the description if it is so designated as to be commonly understood.
3. The wards mentioned in this Schedule are, in relation to any borough in London, wards of the Metropolitan borough; in relation to any municipal borough, wards of the municipal borough; and, in relation to any urban district, wards of the urban district.
4. If any doubt arises as to the constituency in which any parish, townland, ward, or other place, whether larger or smaller than a parish, townland, or ward, is intended by this Schedule to be included, that doubt shall be determined by the Local Government Board.
[ For terms of Schedule, see pages 1743–1826 of Supplement to the Votes. ]
Schedule brought up by the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir G. Cave), and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Schedule be read a second time."
Before we proceed, I think we ought to know what line the Government are going to take upon this question of increased membership of this House. The Boundary Commissioners were given an Instruction that the membership of the House was not to be increased, but they have increased it by thirty, which is a substantial increase. There are Amendments on the Paper which would further increase the membership. Deputations have approached the Home Secretary, and we understand that he has given a rather favourable reply to some of the requests. I am very glad to hear that that is not so. If Amendments are introduced to keep the membership at its present number and making substantial reductions on the increase suggested by the Boundary Commissioners, what attitude would the Government take? That, I suppose, depends on the individual case. Before we proceed with the consideration of this Schedule, I think we ought to know if the Government are going to set their face firm, as I believe the majority of the House wish them to do, against any further increase in the numbers of this House.
I should also like to ask the Home Secretary how it comes that the Boundary Commissioners have so far exceeded the numbers which were laid down by the Conference? At the Speaker's Conference expert advice was taken, population was considered, and very carefully considered. Numbers ranging from 40,000, 50,000, 60,000, up to 90,000 were discussed, and we deliberately came to the conclusion that 50,000 and 70,000 were the numbers that would best work. We passed a resolution to the effect that the numbers should be confined to about 670. We meant that perhaps there might be three or four on either side, but that roughly we should work to the number of 670. I hope, therefore, that the Home Secretary will give us some information as to how the Boundary Commissioners have so largely exceeded that number. I understand there were other limitations that made it very difficult. There were decisions as to boroughs or divisions outside the county, and as to old county divisions being kept, and those necessarily made a difference. Still I think a great many Members were very much surprised to find the Boundary Commissioners calmly suggesting thirty members more than we previously had. Therefore I hope that the Home Secretary may give us some information on the point. If the Irish matter goes through, that will remedy the matter and put it back once more to the old figure, but otherwise there are many Members who are in doubt as to how they should vote on this question.
The addition of thirty members is a large addition, and alters the basis of consideration which was taken by the Speaker's Conference. May we know why it has been suggested by the Boundary Commissioners, and if the Government have a decided view on the question, and whether we are, in considering these various proposals, to consider a total of thirty more than the existing number, susceptible of modification as between one place and another? I join with what has been said by the hon. and learned Member in expressing regret that the numbers have been raised, unless special reasons can be shown by the Home Secretary.
4.0 P.M.
I am very glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) has raised this question, because during the time I had the honour of being a member of the Speaker's Conference, so far as my recollection goes, no attempt was made to increase the number, and the general opinion of everybody on that body was that the number should not be increased. I believe that that is the general feeling of the vast majority of the Members of the House, and, in fact, I am not at all certain that the country would not approve of a proposal to decrease the number. Is it the intention of the Government, the intention of the Speaker's Conference having been so clearly expressed, and it being the wish of the Government, as they have said many times, to carry out their wish, to really carry out the direction of the Speaker's Conference? I rise to ask whether the real intention of the Government is that later on they will have an opportunity to reduce the Irish Members from 103 to 61 or 62, which is their proper proportion, and which would readily meet what has been so eloquently pointed out by my hon. Friend opposite? The Government should take warning when my hon. Friend, who is always a supporter of the Government —it is many years since I heard him criticise any kind of government—and I am quite sure that he would not have done so if he had not been quite certain that the Government deserved it?—criticises them. Under these circumstances, I hope the hint I now throw out will be taken, that the situation might be met by reducing the number of Members on the Benches below the Gangway on this side of the House. I do not for the moment see one of them present, so that we should not lose anything if we did as I suggest, reduce the number of Members from 103 to, I believe, just over 60.
I should like to represent to the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary the other side of the matter. The three last speakers who addressed the House, and who were members of the Speaker's Conference, have spoken in the old ex cathedra spirit which attaches to that body. My right hon. Friend the Member for the City speaks, I think, from a somewhat curious position in regard to this question. He was a member of the Conference. Having secured two members for the City of London, of which I entirely approve, and of which I am very glad, he then found himself on other points so much at variance with the Conference that he left it. The Instructions to the Commissioners virtually were that the present number of members was not to be substantially altered. "Substantially" is a very vague term. I do not quite know how it is to be defined, but certainly it was left to the discretion of the Commissioners to define it. They have added thirty-four members to the existing number of members for England, Scotland and Wales. They call thirty-four not "substantially increasing." If thirty-four members, why not thirty-eight? However, I am anticipating the subject which will come before the House afterwards. The only point I wish to put is that in view of the great increase that has taken place in the population of this country since the present number of members was settled, and the gigantic increase that is going to take place in the electorate, some considerable addition to the Members of this House is not in any way unreasonable.
I am rather inclined to take the view that it is a mistake to increase the membership of this House. Like the last speaker, I am rather surprised to find this principle advocated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London. After all, he is one of the principal culprits. He was, I understand, largely responsible for keeping the double membership for the City of London. On the basis of population there is no justification for that at all, because the population has dwindled down, and now mainly consists of charwomen and office caretakers. The population this year is only 17,960. In 1821 the population was 124,000. Then it was justified in having two members. Now by no argument that can be devised is there any justification for this double membership being preserved. I should be very sorry to see the Front Opposition Bench deprived of its distinguished occupant (Sir F. Banbury), but I think one representative for the City would be ample, and no doubt if the membership was confined to one representative the right hon. Gentleman himself would be ample and quite able to represent the City. If you remember that the borough of Stepney has a population of 279,000, and that the borough of Marylebone has a population of 117,000, and that Marylebone is being deprived of one of its members because of the greed of the City in demanding two, the weakness of the intervention of the right hon. Gentleman against increasing the total membership of this House will be seen. As a matter of fact, in the old days there could be much argument put forward in favour of the City of London having two members, because the liverymen were entitled to vote. The liverymen were spread over a very large area, and represented very varied interests—
It is not the case of the City of London that we are now discussing. We are now on the question as to whether or not the Schedule should be read a second time. A detailed discussion on the City of London will keep until we reach that point in Committee.
I quite appreciate your intervention, Sir Donald. I was only desirous of impressing upon the House the desirability of considering the factor I have put forward, that in view of the total strength of this House the City of London ought not to be in a privileged position as against other towns and cities of the country.
We have had a short, but very interesting discussion, which I welcome. I have been very much struck by the fact that amongst those hon. Members who have pressed upon the Committee that there should be no increase in the total membership of this House are two London Members. I am quite sure that when the time comes to discuss the proposal which is down on the Paper to allow further members for London I shall find the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) and the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir F. Banbury) opposed to any such claim. May I just say a word or two upon the general question? The Instruction to the Commissioners was: best not to increase, more than they were bound to do, the number of members. The Commissioners found themselves compelled to recommend the addition of thirty-one members for this House, besides the three additional members for certain universities. Although there are a certain number of Amendments on the Paper—and there are, I am glad to say, very few—I do not find one Amendment directed to reducing the number of members recommended by the Commissioners. Therefore, whatever dislike may be felt by hon. Members to increasing the membership, it is not reflected in any self-denial on their part, or in any proposal for reducing the number of members.
While I am speaking on this matter, may I just give the House one figure which, I think, will be rather interesting? Notwithstanding the length of this Schedule and the extreme importance of the matters with which to-day we are dealing the Amendments seem to me, as I have said, to be very few. They number 183. Of these 113 are purely consequential; therefore, in substance, the whole number of Amendments proposed for this long Schedule is seventy. Of that seventy, thirty-one deal with names only. That only leaves thirty-nine substantial Amendments with which we have to deal on this large Schedule.
Would you like some more?
That, I think, is a great tribute to the work of the Commission. On the main question I would only add this: Although we must, of course, hear what is said by hon. Members in favour of an addition to the membership of the House, I shall listen to the discussion with a strong prejudice against any further increase of membership. I hope that in that general view, without prejudice to particular cases to be dealt with later, I shall have the support, of the Committee.
I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman how it is that, following our discussion of 11th June, there has been no local inquiry in the case of this particular Schedule? On 11th June, when a certain Amendment was before the House, the right hon. Gentleman said:
"I have said already that, so far as figures go, I do not think we could accept any of the Amendments, but there is an Amendment on the Paper by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor which runs in this way——"
I am not going to discuss my Amendment to the Schedule, but the thing does come in a little bit here:
"Provided that the Commissioners may depart from the strict application of these Instructions in any case where it would result in the formation of constituencies unduly large in area, or where the narrowness of margin between the figure representing the estimated population of any area and the figure required for any of the purposes of these Instructions seem to them to justify such a departure."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th June, 1917, cols. 659–660, Vol. XCIV.]
My point is, of course, that a promise was given that these matters should be considered, and, so far as I know, practically there has been no public inquiry, except, I believe, in the case of Glasgow, and there the Commissioners threw up their scheme altogether; but I am not aware of any other local inquiry as to the Schedule. No doubt there has been some sort of inquiry as to the boundaries, but no public inquiry, and I was personally informed there would be no public inquiry. Certainly, so far as some districts are concerned, there has been no attempt to have a local inquiry of any sort. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say:
"I have mentioned that there my be difficulty, not only as to the area, but as to the character of the constituency—for instance, a ridge of hills dividing it into two. I would suggest to my hon. Friend that instead of using the words "unduly large in area" he should use the words "inconvenient in size and character," which, of course, would cover a somewhat larger category of cases. I really think that does meet the main poiuts which have been raised. I agree that it does not go the whole way, but I think it ensures that the Bill will meet the grievance of unworkable divisions, and other cases of hardship will also receive consideration."
The right hon. Gentleman proceeded:
"I think the rule ought to apply to boroughs and counties alike. I believe that the cases of hardship are fewer in boroughs, but I do not think we can make a distinction in these cases.
Mr. Morton: Will the case of Sutherlandshire be, considered?
Sir G. Cave: I think we all feel that in the case of the constituency which my hon. Friend the Member for Sutherlandshire has represented for so many years it would be very hard to put upon him the duty of representing the still larger division. I think my hon. Friend's case is just the kind the Commissioners will have to consider if this Amendment passes…"
The Amendment did pass, and practically became an Order of this House, but my point is that there was no inquiry.
"With regard to future population I think it is very difficult to put upon the Commissioners the burden of estimating the present population and going beyond 1914. There are certain cases of an increase in population, but I think it is purely temporary, and the cases which have been referred to will right themselves very shortly.
Hon. Members: No. no!
Another Hon. Member; What about Rosyth?
Sir G. Cave: As to all these points, if words can be suggested which will cover them and give the Commissioners greater authority to deal with special cases, they will be considered. I have taken the words suggested by the hon. Member for Windsor because they seem to be words which come nearer to meeting the points that have been raised. May I just add that I think many of us, and I think also the Boundary Commissioners themselves, might he disposed to treat these rules too much as hard and fast rules. They are not intended to be like the laws of the Medes and the Persians, but they are general rules for the guidance of the Commissioners; and, indeed, in that respect we have adopted the language of the Speaker's Conference, which only directs that these rules are to be followed as far as possible. If the Boundary Commissioners take upon themselves the authority which I believe they have, and which is in all our minds, of treating these Instructions as general guiding instructions which do not prevent them from dealing with special cases in a special way. I am sure when their Report comes before the House as whole the House will think they have done rightly and have carried out the desires of all parts of the House. We do not want to tie the Commissioners down too closely, but I think they already have the right to deal with special cases in a special way."—[OFFCIAL REPORT. 11th June.1917, col. 661, Vol. XCIT.]
I do not think I need delay the Committee any longer, but I might read more to the same effect. My point is that the right hon. Gentleman, especially in answer to myself, promised that there should be at least a local inquiry. There has been no local inquiry except in the case of Glasgow. We, therefore, in Sutherlandshire, had no opportunity of submitting our case to the Commissioners properly, because the only notice we had was an advertisement in a paper which said objections or anything of that sort might be communicated in writing. But I have made it quite clear from the quotations I have read from the right hon. Gentleman's speech that it was intended there should be an inquiry of some sort, and what I want to know now is why that inquiry has not been held, and why every constituency has not had an opportunity of submitting its case to
PART I.— PARLIAMENTARY BOROUGHS. (1) LONDON. Name of Parliamentary Borough. Contents of Parliamentary Borough. Total Number of Members for Parliamentary Borough. Names of Divisions of Parliamentary Borough. Contents or Boundaries of Divisions. Finsbnry and Holborn Metropolitan Boroughs of Finsbury and Holborn Two Finsbury Holborn Metropolitan Borough of Finsbury. Metropolitan Borough of Holborn.
I beg to move, in column 1, to leave out the words "and Holborn."
There are several other Amendments in my name, all except the first being con-
the Commissioners? I do not know, of course, what the right hon. Gentleman can do in the matter, but I know I am not the only one who has made this complaint, and I certainly think we were entitled, especially in Sutherlandshire, to have the fullest possible opportunity of stating a case.
As the hon. Gentleman's request is addressed to me, I can answer it in two sentences. The Scottish Commissioners reported that there were certain constituencies where they considered it unnecessary to hold a local inquiry, and among those constituencies were:
"Counties of small population whose boundaries we have not proposed to alter, but which, under our Instructions, we had to unite to some other county for purposes of Parliamentary representation."
Caithness and Sutherland come within that description. The figures in the report show that I was right in saying that the special provision for the sparsely populated areas would give the constituency some assistance, because the constituency of Caithness and Sutherland in 1914 had a population of 48,739, and yet the Commissioners made a special exception and gave a member.
I may say, in answer to my right hon. Friend, that I read that report, but I very much prefer to take the speech of the right hon. Gentleman himself, made in this House on 11th June, and I am very sorry indeed that he did not stick to it. He promised distinctly that Sutherlandshire should have special consideration, and, so far as I know, there has been no such consideration.
Question put, and agreed to.
sequential. The Amendment I now move is with the sole object of helping in the future smooth working of the Bill when it is passed, and is not moved with any intention at all of delaying the passing of the Schedule. As the matter now stands, the proposal is to create a new Parliamentary borough of Finsbury and Holborn, to be divided into two divisions to return two members, one to be returned for Finsbury and one for Holborn. The member for Finsbury Division would represent a division which is entirely coterminous with the metropolitan borough of Finsbury. In the same way the Holborn Division is coterminous with the Metropolitan borough of Holborn. That is the only instance, so far, at all events, as the Metropolis is concerned, where the Instruction laid down by the Conference on Electoral Reform has been departed from. The Committee will remember that the Instruction was quite clear and explicit where it said that the boundaries of Parliamentary constituencies should, as far as practicable, coincide with the boundaries of the administrative areas. Both Finsbury and Holborn Divisions of one and the same new Parliamentary borough are absolutely coterminous with their own administrative areas, and I have looked at it in every way I could, and I am bound to say, with all respect to my right hon. Friend, that I can see no reason why it should be departed from, especially as there is no overlapping of areas at all, and, on the other hand, many difficulties are likely to arise if these two administrative areas are mixed up in the same Parliamentary area.
May I mention one or two of the difficulties which will be apparent to all of us? As regards the registration officers, we have two town clerks, and they cannot both be principal. One would have to be the principal registration officer for the whole area, and the other would have to be the deputy. Probably his duty would have to be to look after his own particular area, but the invidious duty of appointing and deciding who should be the principal and who should be the deputy rests with the Local Government Board, and I am sure I do not envy the person who has to make the choice. I am certain of this, that the town clerk who was appointed as the chief registration officer would imagine that the other town clerk, who was only appointed deputy, would feel aggrieved by his appointment, and I am quite sure the deputy would think he ought to be the principal, and the result would be against the smooth working of the Act. When, as regards the voters themselves, we have two town halls, one to each Metropolitan borough. The voter would ask where the registration was, and in all likelihood he would be told the town hall. If he happened to be in the Finsbury Division he would go to the Finsbury Town Hall, but if he resided in Holborn he would go to the Holborn Town Hall, and I do not see any advantage by the present proposal in that direction. Then there is the question of the returning officer. One mayor would be the returning officer, and the other would act as his deputy. Again, both parties would feel aggrieved. Besides that, it does seem contrary to our ideas that the mayor of one borough should be the returning officer for the election in another borough with which he has nothing at all to do, and presumably knows very little about. The final difficulty is as regards expense, and there can be no possible saving of expense under the present arrangement. For these reasons and many others of which the Home Secretary is aware, I ask for the acceptance of this Amendment, which is put forward with the sole object of helping the smooth working of the Bill when it becomes law. It is a proposal agreed to by all parties, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to accept it.
I think it will be of great assistance to the Committee if, whenever an Amendment has been moved and is opposed, the opponents should say a word or two as soon as the Amendment is moved, and then we shall know whether there is opposition or not. In the present case I do not know whether there is any opposition. The facts are as follows. Holborn had not a population which entitled it to a member under the Instructions; therefore the Commissioners, acting quite properly, added Holborn and Finsbury together and divided the total into two parts, giving part of Finsbury to Holborn and creating two divisions, one called Finsbury and the other Holborn. At the local inquiry objection was taken to that proposal, and it was pointed out that if the Commissioners made the two divisions to correspond with the two boroughs it would be more acceptable, and then there would be a member for Holborn, although it would be the Holborn Division of Finsbury. Now my hon. Friend wants us to cut the Parliamentary borough into two parts and make them two separate Parliamentary boroughs. That does not increase in any way the membership of the House, and it would not alter the constituencies which would return two members. I should feel reluctant to accept this change if there were any opposition, but, as my hon. Friend says that it is an agreed proposal, subject to what the Committee may say, I do not see any objection to this Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In column 2. leave out "boroughs" and insert "borough."
Hampstead … Metropolitan Borough of Hampstead One — —
Amendments made: In column 1, after the word "Hampstead", insert the word "Holborn."
Islington Metropolitan Borough of Islington Four East Canonbury, Highbury and Mildmay wards. North Tollington and Upper Holloway wards, and the part of Tufnell ward which is not included in the West Division. South Barnsbury, St. Mary and St. Peter wards. West Lower Holloway and Thornhill wards, and the part of Tufnell ward which lies to the south of a line drawn along the middle of the Tufnell Park Road from the western boundary of the Metropolitan borough to the western boundary of Upper Holloway ward.
I beg to move, in column 5, to leave out the words "the part of."
This Amendment relates to the borough of Islington, and it is very much of a domestic character. The representatives of the two constituencies affected are agreed upon it, and I hope it will receive the same sympathetic consideration as the last Amendment. I have no desire to part with this part of my Constituency, and my right hon. Friend the Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough) has equally no desire to receive this part in his constituency. Therefore the representatives of these two constituencies are in entire agreement, and I hope the Home Secretary will accept this proposal without any long argument. This variation is the only one proposed by the Boundary Commissioners in the whole of the four Islington constituencies. At the present time there are great inequalities in the population of the different divi-
In column 3, leave out the word "two" and insert the word "one."
In column 4, leave out the word "Finsbury."
In column 5, leave out the words "Metropolitan Borough of Finsbury."
In column 4, leave out the word "Holborn."
In column 5, leave out the words "Metropolitan Borough of Holborn."
In column 2, leave out the words "and Holborn."
In column 2, after the word "Hampstead", insert the words "Metropolitan Borough of Holborn".
In column 3, insert "one."
sions. They range from 101,000 in North Islington to 68,000 in the Southern Division. With an even redistribution we should have something like 82,000 in each, but that has not been attempted. I can quite understand the position of the Commissioners if they were to say, "We must now start fair and try to bring about something like equality. But they have made only one suggestion affecting two divisions. It may not seem unreasonable to those unacquainted with the local conditions, and it appears to do something to mitigate the inequalities, and no doubt that was the intention, yet after that change has been made the four Islingtons will still have great inequality. The South will be nearly 18,000 less than the East, and North will be more than 23,000 in excess of the South.
The redistribution suggested gives all the disadvantages of disturbance without producing equality, and unless there is a thorough rearrangement of all the divi- sions of the borough it is much better to leave the existing divisions untouched. If this arrangement is carried through it will take away from my Constituency Holloway Castle, in which I take a great interest. This ward which it is proposed to cut into two parts is a complete entity in itself, and as born the Radical and the Unionist Members concerned object to the change I think it must be perfectly clear that it does not involve any suggestion of gerrymandering on the part of the Boundary Commissioners. As both object, think that is a very strong reason why the House should allow us to remain in the happy condition we are in at the present moment. The borough of Islington is clearly entitled to five members, and if there were a proper redistribution all the divisions would have to change. A population of 330,000 is entitled to five members, and this borough was only 2,600 below that number at the last Census Since that time many more houses have been built and tenancies for two and three families have been created in the same house. Our claim to five members has been denied because the Commissioners proceeded on the artificial theory that, because there was an inter-census decline in the population between 1901 and 1911, there has been a continuing decline since 1911. There is no case for a partial mutilation of one of the divisions, while you leave the others untouched. As this is a non-party measure and both parties desire to be left as they are, this change ought not to be thrust upon us.
I wish to say a word or two in support of this Amendment. Perhaps I may be allowed to make a few remarks about West Islington and point out how anomalous the change would be with regard to the Western Division. West Islington appears to have been selected as a model division. It has a population of 71,100. It was a compact division with fairly fine boundaries, with a considerable local life, and in which there has not been any change in the representation in this House for more than twenty-five years. And so the Boundary Commissioners appear to have picked out the Western Division, and they have said that as this division has worked so well they had better make all the others like it. That is the principle of the Bill. This matter was being settled in that pleasing way in agreement until this remarkable proposal came up. I did not believe it until I saw the map, and then I found that the chief population of the new part to be stuck on to the borders of West Islington contained a great prison, and then I thought how imperfectly informed the Commissioners must have been to suggest such a change. I do not think sufficient attention has been paid to the point that Islington must soon have another member, and when it does receive another member a change will have to be made in the Western Division. I think my hon. Friend has made out a very good case so far as the North is concerned, and I hope that after these remarks the House will see that there is a much stronger case in regard to the West.
St. Marylebone Metropolitan Borough of St. Marylebone One — —
This is another domestic question, as I understand it, and it does not affect the House as a whole. I would only point out that the effect of the Amendment is to make one division a good deal larger than the other.
Not to make it!
As proposed in the Schedule, there would be a population of 91,000 in the North and 80,000 in the West; but the Amendment would remove 9,000 from the Western Division, leaving it at about the ideal figure, but it would increase the population of the Northern Division to something like 100,000. It is proposed to keep the status quo as regards the constituency, and, unless there is some objection, I do not see any reason for not accepting the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In column 5, leave out the words "which is not included in the West Division."
In column 5, leave out the words "and the part of Tufnell Ward which lies to the south of a line drawn along the middle of Tufnell Park Road from he western boundary of the Metropolitan borough to the western boundary of Upper Holloway Ward."—[ Sir George Touche. ]
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "one," and to insert instead thereof the word "two."
I am afraid that this Amendment which stands not only in my own name but in that also of several of my hon. Friends, raises something more than a domestic question. Many of the Amendments which appear on the Paper in our name are consequential and really depend to a large extent on the fate of this Amendment. The effect of this Amendment would be to give Marylebone two members instead of one—to allow it, in fact, to keep its existing representation. I would have liked to have moved an Amendment which would have raised the question of the total Parliamentary representation of London apart from the claims of my own Constituency, but it did not seem possible to do that, having regard to the framework of the Schedule, and, therefore, I have raised my case, which is to give Marylebone an additional member. I base it not only upon its individual merits, but also on what seems to be an indisputable fact that, under the Schedule, London will not receive its proportionate share of representation. What is London's proportionate share of reresentation? The population of the county of London—that is, the area which does not include the City of London, and forming part of the administrative county—is four and a half millions, and on the prescribed basis of 70,000 population for each member the county would be entitled to sixty-four members. But under the Schedule it receives only sixty members. How has that result been brought about? It has been brought about because the Commissioners have applied a method of procedure to London different from that which they have applied to provincial towns. In the provinces the Commissioners have taken each town by itself and have allotted to it in every instance the total number of members which its population justifies. That total has been distributed among the various divisions of the town in such manner as seemed most convenient.
But in the case of London a different course has been pursued. The Commissioners have taken each Metropolitan borough by itself and have allotted representation to it without reference to the claims of London as a whole. The result of that procedure is to cut down the representation of London as compared with that of other large towns. For this obvious reason several of the Metropolitan boroughs have a large surplus population over what is required to enable them to retain the existing representation or to secure new and increased representation. Marylebone constituency, to which my Amendment relates, has a surplus population of 44,355 over and above that which is the basis—70,000. Shoreditch, another example, has a surplus population of 39,569; and Stepney has a surplus population of 65,081. Westminster and other Metropolitan boroughs have also a Considerable surplus, and the total surplus, population made up in this way in London is, in round figures, 300,000. If the same method had been applied to London as to provincial towns a population of 300,000 would not and could not have been ignored, and it would have received the representation to which it is entitled, namely, four seats. Several towns, in fact, have received four members for a population considerably less than 300,000.
Why have the Commissioners applied to London the principle of divide and reduce? They have divided London up into its component parts and so have reduced its total representation. The only reason I have heard suggested was mentioned by the Home Secretary to a deputation from the London County Council and from London M. P.'s who waited upon him. The reason was that the Commissioners under their instructions were not able to look at London as a whole, because London is not a parliamentary county, but is what my right hon. Friend described as a congerie of boroughs. As a result of taking that view we get rather curious results, because so far as the Commissioners were concerned there were apparently such things as Metropolitan boroughs but no metropolis. This is almost the reductio ad absurdum as applied to the capital of the Empire. I am bound to say that that view of the Commissioners' Instructions appears to me somewhat narrow and inadequate. At any rate the Government and the House are free in this matter and can deal with the question on its merits. I submit there is no valid reason why the centre of population known as London should be treated differently from other centres of population. The mere fact that in London municipal functions are divided between the central body and the local bodies does not make London any less one great town. If it had a centralised municipal administration, the Royal Commission which recommended the division of municipal functions were emphatic that London was one great town, indeed, the Bill itself provides that London should be treated as one area for the purpose of qualifying for the franchise, why should it not be similarly treated for purposes of representation? In the same way it was to be treated as one area for proportional representation.
The deputation to which I have referred really afforded a very striking and interesting example of the fact that London has a unity and entity of its own. The deputation was introduced by Lord Crewe, the Lord Lieutenant of the county—of the area which does not include the City, and he is also chairman of the council which administers the affairs of the county, and to which the City is joined for certain administrative purposes. He was, therefore, a sort of walking embodiment of the unity of London. The Government have decided that the City of London shall be treated as a thing apart, and instructed the Commissioners to give the City two members quite without reference to its population. I take it, therefore, that the City is an entirely exceptional matter, and the question arises, what representation should be given to the county of London with its population of 4,500,000? The London County Council, which is entitled to speak for London as a whole, is unanimous in holding that London ought to have the same representation as other centres of population, and the London members are, I believe, equally unanimous on the subject.
5.0 P.M.
The number to which London is entitled on the basis of population is sixty-four for the county of London, the basis of population being 70,000, although many places have got representation on a much lower standard. That would mean four additional seats for London over and above those included in the Schedule. The London County Council has suggested that one each should be given to Marylebone, Shoreditch, Stepney, and Westminster. If the principle for which we are contending were conceded, I do not think there would be any controversy as to the actual allocation of the seats. I do not propose to say much on the special case of Marylebone, as my remarks on that point will no doubt be supplemented by other speakers. But I will observe this, that Marylebone, quite apart from the general question of London representation, has a considerable case for asking to be allowed to keep its existing representation. It not only has a surplus of 44,000 over the 70,000 standard, but it has also a surplus of 64,355 over the minimum of 50,000 which is required to secure a single member. Other seats with considerably less than half its population have succeeded in obtaining a member. I do not know whether it is proposed to allow us on this Amendment to go into the question of other places as regards which Amendments are to be proposed, and which would give London the additional four members for which we are fighting. I do not myself desire to say anything in regard to that, but I think it would be interesting perhaps to Members who are going to follow. I do submit that Marylebone is entitled on its own merits, and in connection with the claim of London as a whole, to have an additional member. The claim of London, after all, is merely this: That she should be placed on the same level and have the same treatment as other large urban communities. That is surely not a preposterous claim for what is after all more than a congeries of boroughs, nothing less than the Metropolis, the capital of the Empire.
With regard to the point which the hon. Member refers to me, as to the line of the discussion, I should have thought it would be well to have the general discussion with regard to the position of London as a whole on this Amendment, and all those Members who wish to make any remark on that general question should do so now. If they wish, after what may happen on this, and it is open to them, to move any Amendment, then their remarks would have to be confined to the particular constituency affected, because we should then have disposed of the general question on this Motion. I think that would seem to be the best way.
I rise to support the Amendment which has been moved by my hon. Friend the Member for South Paddington (Sir H. Harris). The reason I do so is that I happen to be a member of the London County Council, which is agreed unanimously on this particular question. I think everyone will admit that the London County Council, from the municipal point of view at all events, represents all parts of London, and when I tell the Committee that the county council, representing all parties—and there are three parties on the council—are entirely unanimous on the Resolution which they carried asking that London should be allotted sixty-four members, I think, and I hope the Committee will think, that we are putting forward a very strong case for London. The Mover of this Amendment has mentioned that London is dealt with in this Bill as one area, and I would like to point out to the Committee that Rule 7, which governs the directions to the Boundary Commissioners, says: c ) says: population og 763,000; to Manchester they have allotted 10 members on a population of 731,000; to Sheffield they have allotted 7 members on a population of 472,000; to Nottingham they have allotted 4 members on a population of 264,000; to Wolverhampton they have allotted 3 members on a population of 204,000; and to Cardiff they have allotted 3 members on a population of 202,000. Those are some examples, and I think they are fair examples, of what the Boundary Commissioners have done as regards towns m England, and one in Wales As regards Scotland they have been, I think, a little more generous. To Glasgow they have allotted 15 members on a population of 1,053,000; to Edinburgh 5 members on a population of 341,000; to Dundee 3 on a population of 176,000; and to Aberdeen 3 members on a population of 178,000. Taking the two last figures, if they had treated those places on the 70,000 basis Dundee and Aberdeen ought each to have had a population of 210,000. When you come a little closer to London and take the Home counties, you get the following: To Essex, which is practically a home county, they have allotted 8 members on a population of 549,000; to Kent 11 members on a population of 795,000; to Middlesex 10 members on a population of 674,000, and to Surrey 7 members on a population of 501,000.
I think in view of these figures those who represent London are entitled to ask why the Boundary Commissioners have not dealt with London on similar lines to those on which they have dealt with other large towns in the country, with the Home counties, and with various other constituencies in the Kingdom. As the Mover of this Resolution has said, the total population of the county of London is four and a half millions. If you divide that on the 70,000 basis it entitles us to sixty-four members, and leaves a surplus of 20,000 people, in round figures. We were told at the deputation which waited on the Home Secretary the other day that we ought to reckon the City of London's two members as being members for the great county of London. Members may take that view—I know it is part of the Speaker's Conference suggestions, although personally I very strongly disagree with it—but even if you do add the two members as the Home Secretary has proposed and reckon the total as sixty-two, you have sixty-two members for London with a surplus population of 38,000. Even then, on the Home Secretary's statement, we are entitled to two more members, but I venture to suggest to the Committee that the City's two ought not to be counted in with the other London members. Those two have not been given on the basis of population, but for purely sentimental reasons. Some of us who have worked in London for a good many years certainly do not consider that the representation of the City is at all representative of the other parts of London, because—I hope I am not disrespectful to the City—generally the members for the City represent City interests rather against the general interest of London outside the City. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] That is only my opinion, although I speak with some knowledge after a good many years of public work in the great county of London. I think it hon. Members chose to search out what the City representation has done they would generally find that the first interest of those members has been the preservation of the City as against the general interest of the people in the great county of London.
Another thing those of us on the deputation were told was that one of the reasons why Stepney had been deprived of one of its existing members was the fact of the large alien population which existed in that part of London. I think the Home Secretary is rather stretching the point as to London on this particular matter, because I cannot find in the Report, and I have yet to learn that any deduction has been made in the allotment of members to Manchester or Leeds, where at any rate there are large alien populations, of those aliens before the number of members was allotted to those constituencies. We certainly think that London should not be treated in a worse way than other parts of the country. We think we ought to be given equal representation with the great districts of Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, and Birmingham. I should like to point out that although London is a county, and although we may be told that London is composed of a number of Parliamentary boroughs, the borough in London is quite different to the Parliamentary borough in the country. The Parliamentary borough in the country is a self-dependent borough with full municipal powers. They have their own police, and a great many powers which London boroughs do not possess; and I think it is very unfair to compare the London borough as being equal to the big county boroughs who have greater municipal powers than the ordinary London borough has. The area of the ordinary London borough is selected for electoral purposes because probably it has in many cases been the old boundary that has existed for many years. We are very anxious that London should have these four extra members, and the county council do respectifully put forward the four constituencies which, in the opinion of their particular committee which deals with this matter, ought to have these four members allotted to them. The four constituencies, as the Mover of this Amendment has said, are the particular one of Marylebone mentioned in the Amendment now before the Committee, the Haggerston Division of Shoreditch, one division in Stepney, while the other seat is recommended to be given to Westminster. I should like to point out to the Committee that in all these cases you are taking members away from these constituencies. It is not as if you were setting up a new constituency and giving a member to a new constituency. In all these cases you are taking away members who these constituencies have had since the last Redistribution Bill of 1885. When I look through the Report of the Boundary Commissioners and see what they have done in other similar areas in different parts of the Kingdom, I certainly feel that we are very badly treated as regards London.
I should like to give some figures in regard to what they have done in the county constituencies. To Bedford they have allotted three members on a population of 200,000; to Berkshire three members on a population of 196,000; to Cornwall five members on a population of 329,000; and Cumberland four members with 212,000. One constituency in Cumberland has only 44,000 population, and another 43,000. Gloucester has four members with a population of 277,000, and in Gloucester county you have two borough constituencies, both of them existing boroughs, Cheltenham left alone with 53,000, and Gloucester left alone with 50,000. I know that in many cases there is great sentimental and historic interest, and we do not want to take members away from any other constituencies. All we want is London to be treated in the same way as other parts of the country, and to be given an equal number of members. If you deal with London on a membership basis of 60,000 we have a surplus of over 300,000. Cambridge has been allotted one member for 57,000, Stockport two members for 124,000, Derby two for 125,000, Norwich two for 123,000, Oxford one for 53,000, and Carlisle one for 52,000. If hon. Members will look through the Welsh and Scottish constituencies they will find cases with even much lower figures. In view of these figures, I do appeal to the Home Secretary to meet this unanswerable case of London for four extra members. We are a large area, with a great and, I believe, a growing population, and if he can see his way to give us these four extra members, for which the London County Council unanimously plead on behalf of the whole of London, we shall be very grateful.
My hon. Friends have put the general case for London so very clearly and forcibly that I need not follow their lead, but as one of the parties most particularly interested I may be pardoned for taking part in this Debate. I am one of the Members for Marylebone, and Marylebone, shall I say from time immemorial, has had two members allotted to it. The Western Division is represented by my hon. and gallant Friend Major Sir S. Scott, who is engaged on very serious business connected with the War, and who has kindly said, although he is the senior member, that he would leave it to myself to advocate the case for the retention of two Members for Marylebone. I do not want to quarrel or quibble about any of the decisions at which any of the Boundary Commissioners have arrived, but there is a feeling that Marylebone, at all events, might have been honoured with a visit. The Commissioners did not even come to inquire what was the local opinion or desire, perhaps because we were satisfied with our boundaries as they existed and did not put forward any claim for any alteration. At all events, we have until now been left to moan our fate in silence. Our population 1911 was 117,844, and in the middle of 1914 it was 114,355. That gives us an excess, taking the 70,000 unit, of 44,355, or, taking the minimum of 50,000 to one member which has been adopted in many parts of the country an excess of 64,355. Those are startling figures, and it does seem extraordinary that in a Redistribution Bill putting the franchise on a broader basis you should start by taking a member away from Marylebone, thus leaving 44,000 odd people unrepresented or disfranchised. The registered number of electors in 1914– 1915 was no less than 21,905. The wider the franchise the larger will be the increase, and there will especially be a great addition by the votes that have been given to women.
We have never regarded the Census as a very reliable guide; it has always been taken at the week-end, and on the last occasion it was taken at the Easter week-end. We do not think, therefore, that it should be slavishly followed. There are 2,320 non-resident electors, and if you take an average of one elector to six of the population there would be an addition of 14,000 population. By only giving one member the non-resident or business voters will have no share worth having, or if they do interest themselves, then the electorate will be abnormal to population. The business qualification was given as a set-off for the loss of the ownership vote, which was both a Parliamentary and local Government franchise. The exercise of the business qualification would equalise the votes in the two divisions. They are just now a little unequal, East Marylebone being largely business and West Marylebone largely residential. The exercise of the business vote would put the electorates upon something like an equal basis. You cannot rely upon the population at the moment. We have a large amount of vacant land which would have been built upon had it not been for the War, and which would have maintained and increased our population. A lot of insanitary and worn out property has been demolished, and in one street alone there are no less than two and a half acres lying dormant and waiting for reconstruction. In St. John's Wood we have very large open spaces, which, no doubt, had it not been for the War, would have been rebuilt for the housing of the working and middle classes, thereby adding very considerably to the population. With all respect to the richness of the City and of Westminster, I may point out that Marylebone's net, not gross, assessment is in excess of £2,200,000, which is about 1–18th of the whole county of London. Assuming sixty-four members for the county, Marylebone would be entitled to over three and a half members, and you are only proposing to give one. Our day population is enormous, probably second to that of the City of London. There is an immense amount of business property and business interest not represented in the shape of limited companies, the growth of limited companies having robbed us of a good many votes, and probably having had the effect of reducing the electorate on a mile frontage from Marble Arch to Tottenham Court Road to less than fifty residential votes. We gain in other streets, however, by the business votes what we lose there.
I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman will tell us why we are being so dealt with, but, in common with other boroughs, we desire to retain our identity and the municipal life and interest which have been so healthily created by having our Parliamentary representatives, our county councillors, and our municipality. We do not ask to have some of the surplus population of neighbouring boroughs added to our constituencies. We are quite content, and only desire to be let alone. We do not desire to go begging and borrowing from others, but there are other constituencies which could easily spare a good many thousand electors. Neither do we desire to embrace proportional representation and lose our identity. Locally, we are loyal to our creation and desire to retain our individuality. This is an enfranchising Bill, but the proposal before the Committee is to disfranchise 44,000 electors and make Marylebone a single member constituency, probably the largest in the United Kingdom. If you look at the volume issued by the Commissioners I think you will find that 117,000 is the largest population allotted to any single constituency in the United Kingdom. I cannot conceive on what ground of justice such a decision was arrived at. Ireland is to be redistributed on the basis of one member for every 40,000 population, and 44,000 people in Marylebone are to be disfranchised. The hon. Member for Hammersmith (Sir W. Bull) was very virtuous in the early part of the afternoon, and he asked the right hon. Gentleman upon what ground the Boundary Commissioners had increased the number of members in the House. It is a very cheap and a very easy criticism to say that there are already too many members of Parliament, but, even if that be the case, surely the Government might have taken their courage in both hands and have altered the representation of Ireland. Some hon. Members look upon the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference as most sacred and not to be altered, but they have already been altered. Ireland is to have Redistribution, not on the basis of 70,000, but of 40,000. Surely the alteration for which I am asking on behalf of Marylebone and for which the London County Council is asking on behalf of Stepney, Shoreditch, and Westminster might be favourably considered.
As regards the City of London, none of us wish to quarrel with the good fortune of our City Members, but it does seem extraordinary, if you look at it carefully, that notwithstanding the glorious traditions of the City of London, they should have two members for 17,000 population. I am not indulging in any cheap references to the character of that constituency. I have no doubt they are all worthy electors, and will return the right hon. Baronet and his colleague every year. I cannot see by what parity of reasoning you should give two members to the City with a population of 17,000 and take away one member for Marylebone. The right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) has been reminded this afternoon that he was quite satisfied, when he got his own terms, to leave Mr. Speaker's Conference to go its own sweet way. As to the hon. Member for Hammersmith, whom I have never regarded as being quite so childlike and bland as he appeared to be this afternoon, I always anticipated that he would have stood up for London. As a representative London Member, he might have put up a better case for it. During the last few weeks, when we were looking out for support, he might have come among us to help us, but oh, dear no! he is one of those select persons—there are a good many of them here—who take shelter behind the fact that they are in the Government or helping it. I can assure him that we Londoners feel very keenly the fact that he has deserted us in this hour of our need. We will not trouble to go into domestic matters here; we will deal with those outside, but on the floor here it is against common justice, it is quite wrong and cannot be substantiated by any argument, that you should take away members from something like 300,000 of the surplus population of London.
So far as I am personally concerned, I have no axe to grind in this matter. My colleague, the hon. and gallant Member for West Marylebone (Major Sir S. Scott), is as indifferent as I am to what our future may be. Our anxiety is about the War, but when in the spare moments of the House a Bill like this can be taken up and we find that we are so drastically treated we must, in the interest of our constituents, say that it is a gross injustice to take away one member and to disenfranchise 44,000 people, to add so very largely to the electorate, and to leave us as one of three constituencies in the United Kingdom dealt with in this way. We have been, up to now, a very comfortable little borough, and we have always been happy together. In the interests of London and of the constituencies that have been singled out, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way, although he has given no indication of it this afternoon, nor did he do so at the influential deputation he received the other day, at this, the eleventh hour, to reconsider London as a whole. It will be said that of the 300,000 surplus and unrepresented population, 150,000 are aliens. Believe me, there are aliens in liberal quantities in nearly every constituency. They are not the property of London alone. I dare say we snail hear presently that there are plenty of them in Manchester, and, in fact, in all quarters of the country, which has been a happy hunting ground for aliens of all kinds. Because there are 150,000 in our midst we ought not to be deprived of a representative on that ground. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman may see his way, when he has heard the London evidence which will be levelled at him directly, to help a constituency which has been indicated as having a proper and just claim for reconsideration.
The hon. Member who introduced this Amendment dealt very largely with the question of the London case as a whole. That has been for the convenience of the Committee. As the Committee know, the London case is one for the addition of four members, and four constituencies have been selected, which helps the case of London very much. London has a very strong case of its own, but when you come to deal with the four constituencies in question it is irresistible. My hon. Friend (Mr. Boyton) has made out the case of Marylebone. In a very few words I want to enforce the London plea for four members by pointing out how good is the claim of the borough of Stepney, one of those selected by the London authorities to have an extra member, to the consideration of the Government. Stepney has been cut down from five to three Members, which is extremely drastic treatment. This is done in spite of its population being 275,000, the minimum of four Members being 260,000. On the basis of population alone it would not have been possible to give Stepney less than four members. As in the present Parliament Stepney has five members, it has been a matter of great remark in the borough itself that it should be so treated when its population is over the minimum which would entitle it to four members, yet now it is only proposed to give Stepney three. It is clear that it is not on the basis of population alone that this proposal with regard to Stepney is made. It would appear that the number of voters has been taken into account, and that some regard has been had to the alien population The number of voters in Stepney in proportion to the electors has always been low. This arises principally, not because there is an alien portion of the population, but because Stepney is the district of the casual labourer, owing to the docks and wharves being there. It is a moving population, therefore you would expect to find and do find a very low percentage of voters in such a district. The shortening of the qualification will make all the difference in the world to the proportion voting in Stepney. If the Commission had given full value to this undisputed fact, one of the two grounds on which they appear to have acted must have vanished.
In addition to the shortening of the qualification, the military service of aliens will ensure their naturalisation, and that part of the alien population will very naturally go to increase the proportion of voters in the district. The children of aliens born in this country are voters naturally. I find that the birth-rate in Stepney, not due entirely to the alien population, but taking the whole population, is one-third higher than for the rest of London. On this ground alone Stepney deserves some special treatment, because at the present time it is extremely important that the birth rate should be maintained, and, if possible, increased. The borough of Stepney is setting a good example in that respect. If the alien population of 53,000 be not taken account of at all, and is subtracted from the 275,000, there is a surplus of British population of 33,000 beyond the three members allotted by the Schedule. So that Stepney is in this parlous condition to-day: She will have a surplus British population of 33,000 beyond that necessary for three members, and the whole of the alien population of 53,000 will be ignored if the proposals in the Schedule go through. The case for London depends upon the four component parts of the constituencies selected in support of the London representation. In regard to Stepney, it must be evident to the Committee that it is one of the most difficult districts in the world to administer, because there are varieties of difficult problems that arise owing to the fact that in ordinary times employment is extremely precarious. I have been one of the members for Stepney for over twelve years. It has a poor population which requires constant care and attention, and if you cut down their Parliamentary representation from five to three, the three members who remain will find their powers overtaxed. I hope the Committee will bear these facts in mind and will consider that Stepney deserves rather more than less representatives as laid down now according to the strict letter of the allocation in the Bill.
I do not want to cover the ground already traversed, but I want to put one or two points of a special nature. With regard to London as a whole, it is rather a slur that the Metropolis should be selected for differential treatment of this kind, considering its population in proportion to the population of the country as a whole. It is desirable that its population should be properly represented in the National Parliament. I hope the Government will reconsider the matter from that point of view. I desire to refer to the borough of Shoreditch, part of which I represent in this House. Quite a number of constituencies in different parts of the country have only just 50,000 or just over 50,000 population. Shoreditch has a population of nearly 110,000, and there the disfranchising effect of the proposals of the Commissioners is felt more keenly, because a new Parliamentary borough, that of Stoke Newington, has been created. Although Stoke Newington has had municipal powers and has administered its own affairs, it has never been a Parliamentary borough, but has always constituted part of the Parliamentary borough of Hackney. The Commissioners have now divided it from Hackney and made an independent borough of it. The population of Stoke Newington is 53,000. By the Amendment accepted by the right hon. Gentleman just now, another Metropolitan borough was created, with a population of only 46,000. In Shoreditch, with a population of 109,500, we think it rather hard that our local people should be supposed to be of less value in the Parliamentary sense than the population of other and neighbouring boroughs. In Stoke Newington the Parliamentary vote will represent two and one-fifth of a vote in Shoreditch. In view of the fact that we have always had two members, that it is an old municipal borough, and that we have special elements in our locality which do not exist everywhere, we hope that the Government will reconsider the decision to which the Commissioners have come.
I understand that the representation on the county council is likely to follow the representation in Parliament. Does the Committee realise what that will mean to Shoreditch? In Shoreditch we have an exceptionally high child population. We have four county councillors and their work is very great. They constantly visit the schools and put a great deal of valuable work into the administration of educational affairs. Our birth rate is high, our child population is high, and the work of our county councillors is much greater than in most parts of London. If you cut down the representation by a half, it will be quite impossible for essential matters affecting the local schools to be properly attended to by the representation on the county council.
There is another point which I wish to put. There is a very large quantity of small business qualifications in our borough. Part of the borough is largely of a city character, but a good part of it consists of small workshops occupied by persons who live outside the borough. Of this duplicate vote there will be an exceptionally large number by comparison with other parts of London, and the number of persons within our boundaries entitled to representation will be very much higher in proportion to population than elsewhere. I hope, therefore, that the Government will consider our plea, first of all that London ought to be not over but equally represented with other parts of the country and that that entitles us to four members; and in regard to Shoreditch particularly I hope they will see the injustice which will follow from 110,000 people only being allowed one representative, whilst neighbouring boroughs with less than 50,000 have a single member allotted to them. Our claim has been embodied in a petition presented by the local council, and has also been asked for by public meetings in the locality, where there is a considerable amount of public feeling.
I wish the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill clearly to understand that the whole House is not of the same view as the speakers this afternoon have indicated. They have been largely, if not entirely, members for London, and I suppose it is a duty on their part to represent the case as they have done. I wonder if in their heart of hearts they think that London should have a larger representation. It is a well-known principle of representation that the nearer the hub of the universe the less the representation ought to be. Further away from London smaller numbers should get equal representation with the larger numbers in London. That is not at all a novel doctrine. It was held by no less a man than Mr. Gladstone, and it was embodied in his measure of reform. London men consider that they have superior intelligence to those in the provinces. It comes out in their every action. You have only to talk to a London man for an hour to realise that he thinks he is superior, certainly to those who come from north of the Tweed, and if this increase of members is given to London there are other parts of the country which will call for a similar increase, and among other places Scotland. Another weakness in the arguments which have been advanced by the London members is that they seek to ignore the members who have been given to the City of London, and they seek to represent that those two members are not London members. Such a preposterous idea has never been stated. They are in every sense and in excelsis London members, and although the constituents of these gentlemen are not in the ordinary sense resident in London, still they are in another sense, and partially, resident there. They vote because of the business premises which they rent there and in which they spend certainly half their existence. All the constituencies of London are characterised in a similar way—that is to say, that many of the electors in all the constituencies are not residential but vote on other claims, such as offices, workshops, and so on. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will realise that there are in the House many different views from those which have been advanced and will reject this proposal.
I am not quite sure what is the object of the hon. Member (Mr. Watt), because I notice that Glasgow has a member for every block of 70,000 electors, and if London were served in the same way there would be no objection from London. It is because Glasgow apparently has been favoured and London has not that the question is raised. It has been made a complaint against the Boundary Commissioners that they did not send a local Commissioner to ascertain the feelings of the population of the areas which are being deprived of representatives. In Stepney we have no such grievance. We were favoured by a visit from a sub-Commissioner and we put some questions to him to which we are still awaiting a reply. We inquired why it was that in one part of London a new division was created for a population of 50,000 whilst we in Stepney, with a population of 280,000, could only have three members. We asked him if he could enlighten us on that point. He was not able to give us the information, but he called attention to the fact that the electorate was out of proportion to the population. That is quite true. We have a great riverside population in the East End of London, and at one end of the river you often get a large arrival of ships and a large amount of work whereas a few weeks or months later that work shifts to the other end, and as the labour shifts they are deprived of their votes because they have moved from Poplar into Stepney, or from Stepney into Poplar. That is not the case so much in Liverpool where you can shift from one part to the other without being disfranchised, but if you move a few yards between Poplar and Stepney you lose your vote for two and a half years. There is another factor which affects Stepney, and that is the alien population. Out of our 280,000 there are some 53,000 aliens registered. At the time the last Census was taken, whatever was the nationality of the father, that was the nationality of his family, although they were born in this country, therefore it is not quite fair and not quite accurate to take the figure of 53,000 as being all aliens. It would be much safer to assume that at least a third, or more, would be British born and would be entitled to all the rights of British citizens when they come of age, and that is what has happened. Since the Military Service Act has been in operation, and even before, large numbers of these supposed aliens, according to the Census figures, are in khaki and are fighting our battles for us, and it would be absolutely absurd to rule them out of all your calculations. They are serving and they are entitled to the vote and should become voters. Therefore I should like the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hayes Fisher) to tell us whether that fact was before the Boundary Commissioners when they dealt with the proposal.
6.0 P.M.
In answer to what was said by the hon. Member (Mr. Watt), in dealing with the subject of four extra members for London, we decidedly do not admit that the two Members for the City ought to be counted in, because we are dealing with the question of the population of London, and these two members for the City were not given on the basis of the population of the City. Therefore we hold that it is perfectly right to exclude both the members for the City and the population of the City in getting our average population per member for the county of London. With regard to Westminster, the administrative area which is taken by the Bill contains three boroughs, St. George's, Hanover Square, the Strand, and Westminster. The first is represented by the distinguished ex-Prime Minister of the Australian Commonwealth, the second by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long), and the third has been represented by myself for thirty-two years continuously. My right hon. Friend (Sir G. Reid) is, I understand, in America on national business, my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long) has his hands tied by his position in the Government and by his former position in relation to this Bill, and I am very conscious how much the case I have to submit to the Committee will lose by being left to me alone. Under the Bill of 1885 these three constituencies were first created divisions, but by an Amendment to the Bill they were made into separate boroughs. They are not only parts of the administrative area of Westminster, but they entirely compose the City of Westminster, and their outside boundaries are identical with the boundaries of the administrative area. The administrative area of Westminster, the aggregate area of the three boroughs, has a night population of 154,544, and a rateable value of £6,800,000, or over £1,000,000 more than the City of London. The borough of Westminster alone, which I have the honour to represent, has a rateable value per head of registered electors of £130 per annum, compared with £50 throughout London. It is more important to point out that the City of Westminster, the Metropolitan borough of Westminster, contributes to the equalisation of rates in London £127,435 per annum out of the £204,576 contributed to that fund by what are called the nine paying boroughs. That is to say, Westminster alone contributes £50,000 more than all the other paying boroughs added together, except, of course, the City. The area of the City of Westminster is 2,572 acres, compared with 738 acres contained in the City of London.
The night population of 154,544 is the estimated population of 1914. The census population of 1911 was, roundly, 157,000. But it does not matter whether we take 154,000 or 157,000, or 160,000, which latter figure I believe the Commissioners take as the 1911 population, it is quite easy to see that the Commissioners, by a slight rearrangement of the boundaries of the three boroughs, might have set up three boroughs or divisions, each with a population of over 50,000. We do not want any rearrangement of the boundaries. We think it would be better that the three boroughs should be left as they are and turned into divisions if necessary. That is the explicit proposition of the London County Council, and that is the proposal which is supported by the City Council of Westminster.
The population of Westminster leaves an excess when it becomes a two-member borough of a population of 34,544 unrepresented. That is an excess of 17,272 per member as compared with an average excess per member in boroughs throughout England and Wales of 3,619. But this excess does not represent the whole of the claim of Westminster. There is the important question of the proportion of electors to population. That is a matter which was expressly committed by this House to the Commissioners. The words are familiar to the Committee: the new Abbey division, containing what are now the boroughs of the Strand and Westminster. The Strand people are well aware of it, and I am personally aware of the fact, that more and more every day premises are being devoted in Westminster to business purposes, so that this new division, already so handicapped in respect of the proportion of electors to population, would be far worse off in that respect in the future. I wonder if the Commissioners took this view of the increase into account when they wrote their paragraph in the Report, stating that in Westminster the proportion of electors occupying business premises to the night population was not abnormal. I think a careful examination of the facts would show that it is abnormal, and that it will be far more so.
I come now to another point with which I am justified in dealing, because of the remarkable analogy to be drawn from the treatment accorded to the City of London which is left with its representation as it was, while the City of Westminster is deprived of a member. What was the reason for this indulgence accorded by the Conference to the City of London? I do not complain for a moment, because, as I have already stated, I am glad of it. It could hardly have been—and this is a very curious point—the great disproportion between the electors of the City and the population of the City of London. The disproportion is enormous. It could hardly have been that, for this reason, that the question of the proportion of electors to population was an afterthought of this House It was not in the Bill, as it came to this House, but it was put in afterwards as an Instruction to the Boundary Commissioners. I hope the Home Secretary understands my point, namely, that the question of the proportion of electors to population was not mentioned in the original Bill, but it was put into the Bill at the instance of this House some time afterwards in the Instructions to the Commissioners, and, so far as I can see, that cannot be the reason for giving the City of London its two members. In these circumstances, it seems to me that one of the great reasons for giving the City its two members must have been its enormous day population. It is only by taking the day population into account that the Bill, as it came to us, was justified in giving the City of London two members. Shorn of that consideration the night or Census population of the City of London is under 18,000, as compared with the night population of the City of Westminster of 154,000. In other words, if you do not take the day population into account, Westminster has more than eight times the population of the City of London. But while Westminster has lost one-third of its representation, the City of London's representation remains as it was before. If I am wrong in this analogy and that it was not the day population other than electors which led to the City of London retaining its two members, I am still prepared to say that the day population in Westminster is a matter that might very well be taken into consideration by this Committee.
It is impossible to estimate the day population of the City of Westminster, but the figures must be astounding. With its twenty railway stations, including three termini, its tramway service coming right up to Westminster Bridge and over Vauxhall Bridge, and through the western part of Westminster, its great omnibus services from all parts of London to and from the suburbs, thousands and thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of workers, are poured into Westminster every morning, to its shops, its offices, its banks, its places of manufacture, other places of business, the Law Courts, its gigantic Government offices, which are increasing every day. All these workers are served, and well served, in many matters affecting their health, convenience, and comfort, at the expense of the ratepayers, who are for the most part the electors of Westminster. Is it unreasonable to ask that these facts may be taken into consideration in dealing with the Parliamentary representation of Westminster? There is another very practical point under this head, and that is that these people who come into Westminster occupy and earn their living and conduct their business in property of enormous value, which is thus fully and actively engaged to their benefit, and yet is left by reason of their occupation wholly incapable of conferring votes on anyone except some caretakers. This vast mass of workers come to Westminster every day but sleep elsewhere, and they are, in fact, the cause of Westminster not having a night population, technically, sufficient for three members. You may say there is the business vote, but that will not help, particularly in the case of the great joint stock companies, which are increasing every day and which occupy very large premises which give only one vote. But I am speaking particularly of the enormous number of workers who sleep elsewhere but who live the greater part of their waking hours in Westminster. I know they cannot be in the Census, they cannot be on the voters' list, they cannot be counted in, but I claim that they should be taken into account. When you adopt population as the basis of Parliamentary representation you ought not to ignore this great day population altogether; and if any account is taken of it at all, of what Westminster does for it, of what it takes away from the voting power of Westminster by its occupation of the vast premises in which it does its business, I submit that Westminster ought to retain its three members. I have purposely made no reference to the historic or sentimental considerations which attach to the City of Westminster. But I may at least point out that while London, whose claim to four more members is now before the Committee, is the capital not only of the United Kingdom, but of the Empire, Westminster is the heart of London, and performs many functions in respect of the Imperial character of London. In Westminster are situated the Law Courts, the Government offices, and this House itself. I ask the Committee to take all these points into consideration in determining the matter.
There is one other point which is consequential. The representation of boroughs on the London County Council is regulated according to the number of members of Parliament. That was an arrangement made haphazard, in 1888. It does not apply to the rest of the country. The municipal representation nowhere else has anything to do with the Parliamentary representation; but in London, in order not to delay the passage of the Act under which this arrangement was made, the solution was found of giving two members on the London County Council for every one member of this House. If you take away a member from Westminster you take away two representatives on the London County Council from the Metropolitan borough which makes the enormous contribution I have already explained to the Equalisation of Rates Fund, a contribution of £50,000 more than all the other paying boroughs put together. I can hardly imagine that my right hon. Friend (the Home Secretary) or his colleague the President of the Local Government Board can contemplate the infliction of an injustice like this upon a great Metropolitan borough like Westminster. That difficulty would be easily avoided if the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to leave the Parliamentary representation of Westminster unaltered.
I do not know what attitude the Government are going to take with regard to this and the other Amendments that are to be moved on behalf of London; but I have quite made up my mind as to the course which I personally have got to take, and feel bound to take, in the case on its merits. When ordinary subjects are before the House I have, rightly or wrongly, since the outbreak of War, consistently and persistently supported the Government, and if there is a Division to-day I shall unfortunately be in the position, for the first time since the War began, of giving a vote against the Government. I am justified in doing so because the question which we are now deciding has nothing to do with the conduct of the War. On this, particular question as to the number of members which the metropolis is to return to the House, every member is as well able to form his own conclusion as to the justice and expediency of the case as is any member of the Government. I should have hoped that the Government would recognise that this is one of these questions which will not lower their prestige abroad if a different view is taken by the House and would be prepared to admit that every member of the House is capable of deciding for himself whether there should be an additional four members for London or not. If it was a question of troops being sent to Mesopotamia or anywhere else, I do not care what Amendments were moved in this House, I should support the Government because they are in a better position to know, and they are responsible for the conduct of the War, but having received an urgent Whip by telegram to be in the House to-day. I do not think that it would be fair for the Government, if on any of these Amendments they are pressed to a Division, to use their influence and, more than that, their Whips to determine this question. Whatever happens, I hope that those who are proposing this series of Amendments will press each of them to a Division in order that we may without any suggestion of lack of confidence in the Government in the conduct of the War or of any desire to create trouble for them, support this Amendment on its merits.
I support the case for four members. It is explained that the reason why London is four members short is that the Commission have had regard to the various boroughs and have ignored London as a whole. It seems to me that, which ever way you take this question of the four members, our case is established. Taking London as a whole I am satisfied that if there is anything to give and take, the metropolis should not be treated meanly in the matter of representation. I hope that the House will forgive me if I mention the case in which I am most interested. I do not propose to make another speech when that Amendment is dealt with, but, as an illustration of the problem, I would like to say one word about the borough of Stepney. The total population is 280,000. If they had a population of about 190,000 they would get three members, so that you have got something like a population of 90,000 who are disfranchised. The answer to that, I know, is that there is a large number of aliens. There are, according to the figures, 53,000 aliens. I would remind the Committee that only 5,000 of these are enemy aliens, but taking away those classed as aliens you have 30,000 British subjects more than you have representation for, and I want to know how we are to go down to the East End of London and say that the City of London is to have two members for 17,000 persons while there are just over the border 30,000 British subjects who are unprovided for. How can that case be justified? Yet if you are to differentiate between one class of the population and another in their right to vote—I do not suggest that that is the right thing to do—then I have no hesitation in saying that these 30,000 British subjects who are disfranchised in Stepney have infinitely more need of a vote than the 17,000 who have got two members in the City of London. If anyone needs representation it would be these people, and it would be very difficult to explain to these 30,000 British subjects how the House of Commons justifies giving two members for 17,000 while it deprives 30,000 of any member at all.
But take the case of the aliens. That is not represented fairly by the figures which I have given, because these figures include the children of aliens, who are born in this country, and the result is that there is an enormous number of the children of these aliens who are British subjects, though they are counted as aliens, and many of whom will in a year or two be entitled to vote. The result is that the number of British subjects who will be disfranchised under this particular distribution by the Boundary Commissioners will be increasing from year to year. The proportion of population to electorate is in Stepney one-half of that which exists in all the boroughs of the country There is only one-fifth of the population in Stepney who are aliens, so that the difference must be accounted for entirely in another way, and Members who have spoken already have indicated that these people are disfranchised for reasons connected with the old system of registration, reasons of value and removal and so on, which the new Bill is going to do away with altogether. You will then be adding enormously to the proportion of the electorate who will be entitled to vote under the new Bill, but of which, by this particular scheme of registration, they will be deprived. I hope the Government will not think it necessary to make this matter of detail a vote of confidence. Whether they do or not, I am bound, speaking for myself—and nobody will accuse me of not having given the Government the fullest support—to vote against them in the Lobby if they do not accept this view.
I was unwilling to intervene in this Debate until the views of London had been fully put before the House, but I think, after hearing the speeches made for the last two or three hours, that everything that can be said for the increase of the membership of London has been said by my hon. Friends. I think London is not quite united on the point. I have heard more than one indication of some difference of opinion among London members. But I could not take even the unity of London as a sufficient argument for increasing the membership for London, as there is no place in the country which would not be in favour of obtaining, if possible, an increase of its own members. We must consider the matter not from the point of view of London alone but from the point of view of the whole country—the counties, and provincial boroughs, as well as London, and from the point of view of Scotland and Wales. I want to look at this subject from that somewhat wider point of view. The Committee will understand that if this proposal be carried we shall be flooded with applications from other parts of the country where equally good cases can be made. In fact, I am afraid that the effect would be to dislocate the whole redistribution scheme so carefully framed by the Boundary Commissioners, and to increase still further the membership of this House. Those considerations are not fatal to the Amendments, but they are a good reason why we should consider very carefully the arguments used in their support.
As to the case of Marylebone, which has been so strongly and vigorously put by my hon. Friend behind me, the Member for that constituency, I want to say a few words. Marylebone is, I think, the strongest case in London for an increase of membership. The number of the population required by the scheme for two members is 120,000. The population of Marylebone in 1914 was 114,355; in fact, between 5,000 and 6,000 below the limit required for a borough with two members. It is very hard luck, and I much regret that we run the risk of losing the presence of one or other of the two distinguished Members who represent that constituency. I hope one of them may find a seat elsewhere.
At the same time, the moment you have a limit you must have hard cases. If in every case where there is a deficiency of 5,000 or 6,000 we gave way to our sympathies and added a member it would greatly increase the membership of this House. On the figures it is impossible to make a case for Marylebone which cannot be made for a great many other places. But it is not really disfranchising anybody, because all these people have votes for the borough, and though they are not so fully represented in proportion to population as other boroughs, you may call it under-representation, but it is not disfranchisement. The hon. Member for Marylebone, I think, argued that in that borough there are more than the ordinary number of electors in proportion to population. The facts are the other way. I have the figures here. The average proportion of electors to population in the boroughs as a whole is 16.48. In London boroughs the average is 15.3, and in Marylebone it is 13.3—very much below the average even in London, and even more below the average over the whole country. The case so far as it rests on that argument must break down, and in spite of our sympathy with the borough I do not think we can accept the proposal which has been made. I am not going to argue now the points put in relation to other boroughs—the City of Westminster and the borough of Stepney. They are both dealt with in the Report of the Boundary Commissioners, and neither case is as strong as the case of Marylebone. Stepney has a population of 279,800, including 53,000 aliens, leaving a net population of over 226,000. The House will see at once that this is really little more than the number required to the three members.
Thirty thousand more.
I agree; but 40,000 less than the number required to get another member. The population of the City of Westminster is 164,544. That is no way near the number required to get three members, which is 190,000. I do not want to dispute the great claim of Westminster to our esteem, and I should like to treat her favourably, if that could be done; but on the figures alone the case of Westminster is rather less strong than that of either Stepney or Marylebone. I submit that on the figures the case cannot be supported in this House
As to the general argument that has been put forward by the Members for London, they put their case, as I understand, in this way: The Commissioners, in acting under their Instructions, have increased the London membership by three, have made the London membership sixty-two, or, of you omit the two City Members, sixty. Hon. Members have put forward the view that, taking the population of London, excluding the City and dividing the population by 70,000, you get the result of sixty-four, and that, therefore, London should have four more members than it has. In support of that argument it was pointed out that, in dealing with a provincial borough, you take the borough as a whole, and divide it by the unit before you ascertain the number of members the borough is to have. All that is true, and there is no dispute about the figures or the facts, but what you have to consider is that London is not a borough. No one doubts that London is perhaps the most important administrative county in the country.
Why not treat it as a county?
Because the Instructions laid down that the Boundary Commissioners were to take Parliamentary counties and Parliamentary boroughs. London never has been a Parliamentary county; it has been a congeries of Parliamentary boroughs, and if the Commissioners went beyond their Instruction— which they have no right to do—they could not make it a borough without putting the matter on a wrong basis. Manchester and Liverpool are municipal boroughs, but London is not. As to the argument founded on Clause, this has one purpose only, and that is to treat all the boroughs of London as contiguous for the purpose of the franchise, but I do not think that this concession entitles the hon. Member to treat London as a borough for general purposes. That is the main point which is raised, and I am afraid that it breaks down. I go a little further, and I want the Committee to follow this: None of us want to treat London unfairly, but, on the other hand, I do not think that London wants to be represented by more members than should be hers of right. Even on the argument that London should count as one borough, you must, under the Instructions, deal with the proportion of electors to population, a no you must take the aliens. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] The aliens are not electors. Special Instructions were given by the House that where there is a great proportion of non-electors, an abnormal proportion, you ought to have regard to that fact, so that in order to ascertain the population of London for this purpose we have a right to deduct the aliens, who number 153,000. The moment you do that you take away the case for two out of the four members asked for, and the claim is for sixty-two instead of sixty-four.
I come to the other half of the case. My hon. Friends exclude the City of London. I really do not know why. If you are to treat London as a unit, after all it includes the City of London, and I do not see how you can have it both ways. If you add the members for the City of London to the sixty for the other boroughs, you get sixty-two, which is exactly the membership to which London is entitled. Take it how you will, I cannot see that any injustice is being done to London. On the other hand, if you disturb the number that is given to London, you disturb the whole of the arrangements. The hon. Member for St. Pancras told us that London is the hub of the universe, and we remember what Mr. Gladstone said about the representation of London and other parts of the country. I think I have shown that the arguments advanced are based upon false premises, and that, even assuming those premises, the conclusion breaks down. Having kept my mind open and having heard all the arguments that have been advanced, I am not in the least convinced by the arguments I have heard, and I think we ought not to accept the proposal. A few hours ago we had a discussion on the increase of membership recommended by the Boundary Commissioners, and there was no dissent from the criticism of that. Here is an instance, the first of a whole number, where a locality makes out a case, satisfactory to itself, for a further increase. If the Committee yield to this case, I do not see how they can oppose all the other cases that are coming on. This is a very serious matter, and I think it is our duty to reject the Amendment.
I am very sorry that the Home Secretary has had to adopt such a very antagonistic attitude to this Amendment and the remarks pressed upon him with great ability by my colleagues. With no desire to inconvenience him, I cannot help thinking that his concern at what will happen to the rest of the Schedule if this proposal were to be accepted is rather exaggerated, because the case of London stands in a very special position. That has been pointed out by many speakers, but the Home Secretary has had to have recourse, to a certain extent, to special pleading to get rid of the point that there will be 300,000 of the population of London who, I will not say are not represented, but who might be represented if London had been divided up in the exact arithmetical proportion which had been proposed should be applied to the whole of the country. I do not argue very much that the members of the City of London do not represent London. My right hon. Friend over there is always willing and anxious to do everything he can for London. I think I should point out that the members who represent the City are returned not by Londoners, but by a great number of people who live outside London altogether. Many of them live in London, but a great number of them live in the suburbs. I admit at once that on all London questions we have their assistance, but nevertheless their electorate is not composed of London people. The other point is as to the aliens. The right hon. Gentleman says there are 156,000 aliens in London who ought not to have votes and who ought to be struck out in order to arrive at a right proportion. I may point out that that condition of affairs holds good elsewhere. The aliens in Liverpool, for instance, have not been excluded, and in other cities.
I am told that in Liverpool, Manchester, and elsewhere the number of aliens has been considered, and it has been ascertained that they do not make a difference in the representation.
I wonder how far it has been considered. It is all very well to talk of aliens, but the question is who is an elector. The mere fact that there are 156,000 aliens recorded in the last Census does not mean that there are 156,000 people who will not be entitled to vote. A great number of those who are regarded as aliens are probably British subjects who will have their electoral rights. Therefore, I think as to both those points we are entitled to take them with a grain of salt. I venture to urge another point that has not yet been urged. The proposals from the Conference were based on the adoption of proportional representation. If you had adopted proportional representation you would have had a quite different set of circumstances than those which we have at present. The reason why Londoners are complaining that they do not get their full share is because we have decided that every borough is to be treated separately, and, therefore, you get these large more or less accidental margins which come to a total of 350,000. I will show you how this operates in these two cases about which so much has been said, of Marylebone and Stepney. If we had had proportional representation in London we should undoubtedly, I think, have joined together Marylebone, Hampstead and Kensington. That would have given a constituency of five members. The figures are, Kensington 171,000 population, Marylebone 114,000, Hampstead 86,000, totalling 371,000, which would be entitled by the rules to five members. Under the new system you are going to give Kensington two, Marylebone one, and Hampstead one. So that, if the House would agree to it, this additional member for Marylebone would be carrying out in this particular portion of London precisely what was anticipated by the Conference when we made our proposals. The same thing happens with regard to Stepney. If you take Stepney and join it to Shoreditch, a reasonable thing to do, in order to make up the five members, you would have Stepney with 275,000, and Shoreditch with 109,000, a total of 381,000. You could knock off 54,000 for aliens and still you would have the number for five members. We are now by these proposals giving Shoreditch one, and Stepney three. There, again, if we had had the system of proportional representation, we should have had, both in Stepney and Shoreditch and Marylebone, five members, and this injustice, for it is an injustice, would not have been brought about. Under those circumstances I regret very much that the Home Secretary has not seen his way, and I still hope he may, to agree to give two members, which will meet the justice of the case. It will give London sixty-two members, which, with the two members for the City, will total sixty-four, which is the number to which it is entitled by population. I hope that the Home Secretary and the House may see their way to give this small measure of justice, and then there will be no complaint whatever as to representation.
Question put, "That the word 'one' stand part of the Schedule."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 223, Noes, 70.
Division No. 102.] AYES. [6.58 p.m. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke Beale, Sir William Phipson Bull, Sir William James Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Beauchamp, Sir Edward Burn, Colonel C. R. Agnew, Sir George William Beck, Arthur Cecil Buxton, Noel Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Bellairs, Commander C. W. Campion, Lieut.-Col. W. R. Amery, Captain L. C. M. S. Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Carew, C. R. S. Archdale, Lieut. Edward M. Bethell, Sir J. H. Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Armitage, Robert Bird, Alfred Cautley, H. S. Baird, John Lawrence Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Baldwin, Stanley Bliss, Joseph Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Boyle, William L. (Norfolk, Mid.) Clough, William Barnston, Capt. Harry Brace, Rt. Hon. William Clynes, John R. Barton, Sir William Bridgeman, William Clive Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.) Broughton, Urban Hanlon Cochrane, Cecil Algernon Bathurst, Capt. C. (Wilts, Wilton) Brunner, John F. L. Collins, Major Godfrey P. (Greenock) Beach, William F. H. Bryce, J. Annan Colvin, Col. Richard Beale Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. King, Joseph Raphael, Major Sir Herbert H. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Knight, Captain E. A Rawson, Col. R. H. Cowan, Sir W. H. Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Lane-Fox, Major G. R. Richards, Thomas Craik, Sir Henry Larmor, Sir J. Roberts, Rt. Hon. Geo. H. (Norwich) Currie, George W. Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bottle) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Robinson, Sidney Danman, Hon. Richard Douglas Levy, Sir Maurice Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Denniss, E. R. B. Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Rutherford, Col. Sir J.(Lancs., Darwen) Dixon, C. H. Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Samuels, Arthur W. (Dublin, U.) Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Duncan, Sir J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Mackinder, Halford J. Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur Edge, Captain William Macmaster, Donald Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) McMicking, Major Gilbert Smith, Harold (Warrington) Falconer, James McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Fell, Arthur Macpherson, James Ian Spear, Sir John Ward Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A. H.(Asht'n-u-Lyne) Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Maden, Sir John Henry Starkey, Captain John R. Foster, Philip Staveley Maitland, Sir A. D. Steel- Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. Henry Galbraith, Samuel Mallalieu, Frederick William Stewart, Gershom Ganzoni, Francis J. C. Marks, Sir George Croydon Sykes, Col. Sir Alan John (Knutsford) Gardner, Ernest Mason, David M. (Coventry) Sykes, Col. Sir Mark (Hull, Central) Gelder, Sir W. A. Mason, James F. (Windsor) Tennant, Rt. Hon. Harold John Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Meysey-Thompson, Colonel E. C. Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.) Goldsmith, Frank Middlemore, John Throgmorton Thomas-Stanford, Charles Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Morgan, George Hay Tickler, T. G. Greig, Colonel J. W. Morison, Hector (Hackney, S.) Tyron, Captain George Clement Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Turton, Edmund Russborough Haddock, George Bahr Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Wardle, George J. Hambro, Angus Valdemar Neville, Reginald J. N. Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Newman, Major John R. P. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Watt, Henry A. Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Webb, Lieut.-Col. Sir H. Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.) Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir J. Weston, J. W Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Wheler, Major Granville C. H. Haslam, Lewis Palmer, Godfrey Mark White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Helme, Sir Norval Watson Parker, Rt. Hon. Sir G. (Gravesend) Whiteley, Herbert James Hemmerde, Edward George Parker, James (Halifax) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Henderson, Rt. Hon. Arthur (Durham) Parkes, Sir Ebenezer Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Hewart, Sir Gordon Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Hewins, William Albert Samuel Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike(Darlington) Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding) Williamson, Sir Archibald Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Peel, Lieut.-Col. R. F. (Suffolk, S.E.) Wills, Major Sir Gilbert Hope, Harry (Bute) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Perkins, Walter F. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Hope, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Edin., Midlothian) Peto, Basil Edward Wilson-Fox, Henry (Tamworth) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Philipps, Sir Owen (Chester) Winfrey, Sir Richard Hume-Williams, William Ellis Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Wood, John (Stalybridge) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H Pratt, J. W. Worthington Evans, Major Sir L. Ingleby, Holcombe Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Wright, Captain Henry Fitzherbert Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Yate, Colonel Charles Edward Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil Pringle, William M. R. Younger, Sir George Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund Jowett, Frederick William Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—Lord Edmund Talbot and Capt. F. Guest..—Lord Edmund Talbot and Capt. F. Guest. Joynson-Hicks, William Randles, Sir John S. Kellaway, Frederick George
NOES. Arnold, Sydney Denison-Pender, Capt. J. C. Hughes, Spencer Leigh Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Jessel, Colonel Sir H. M. Barnett, Captain R. W. Doris, William Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Benn, Capt. W. W.(T. Hamlets, St. George) Field, William Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Blair, Reginald Fletcher, John Samuel Joyce, Michael Boland, John Pius Gastrell, Lieut.-Col. Sir W. Houghton Kiley, James Daniel Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C W. Gilbert, J. D. Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Burdett-Coutts, W. Glanville, Harold James Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Butcher, John George Greene, Lieut.-Col. Walter Raymond Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Byrne, Alfred Gretton, Colonel John Meux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth Chancellor, Henry George Hackett, John Nolan, Joseph Clive, Col. Percy Archer Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J. Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse) Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Courthope, Major George Loyd Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.) Quilter, Major Sir Cuthbert Crooks, Rt. Hon. William Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Crumley, Patrick Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E. Rowlands, James Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Hinds, John Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)
Scanlan, Thomas Thorne, William (West Ham) Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Wedgwood, Lieut.-Commander Josiah C. Yeo, Alfred William Smallwood, Edward Whitty, Patrick Joseph Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Wilson, Colonel Leslie G. (Reading) TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—Mr. Boyton and Mr. Wiles..—Mr. Boyton and Mr. Wiles. Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Wing, Thomas Edward Terrell, Major Henry (Gloucester)
Does the hon. Member for Haggerston wish to move his Amendment?
Yes.
I think everything which would appear to be necessary has
Shoreditch … Metropolitan Borough of Shoreditch One — —
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "one" and to insert instead thereof "two."
I still desire to give the House an opportunity of emphasising the injustices that have been committed on London and on Marylebone and the treatment meted out to Shoreditch. I will not repeat what I said just now in discussing the general Amendment, but London as a whole has been deprived of its fair proportion of representation. That is, however, no reason why the question of Shoreditch should not be emphasised. Shoreditch is in the neighbourhood of one of the newlycreated Parliamentary boroughs. Shoreditch as divided, as it has hitherto been divided, would still contain as great a population as Stoke Newington and Holborn. As the case stands, a voter in Stoke Newington stands for twice as much as one in Shoreditch. Shoreditch strongly resents this, and the more strongly be-
Stepney … Metropolitan Borough of Stepney Three Limehouse … Limehouse North, Limehouse South Mile End Old Town North-East, Mile End Old Town South-East and Ratcliffe wards.
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "three" and to insert instead thereof "four." I shall not detain the House with a speech, but will simply formally move my Amendment.
I beg to support the Amendment. In so doing I will not travel over ground previously travelled. Previous speakers, however, have not dealt with the fact that in the Borough of Stepney no less than 33,000 of its population will practically have no voice in the coming Parliament. This figure is arrived at by ignoring altogether the 53,000 aliens who reside in the borough. I would also remind
been said in relation to these series of Amendments. Is not the hon. Member's Amendment one part of the proposed scheme just negatived by the Committee?
Where is Shoreditch?
cause of the peculiar conditions of the borough. They urge that the representation on the County Council, following, I suppose, the representation in Parliament, would deprive them of the services of two County Council members out of the four members they now have, who are scarcely adequate to the work they now have to do, because of the largeness of the child population. We have the highest birth rate. We have the largest proportionate population of children. In the interests of the borough, at the desire of the borough council, and of a large number of local people, even it only by way of protest, I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name, and I intend to carry it to a Division.
The Government cannot accept the Amendment. The arguments have all been dealt with already.
Amendment negatived.
the House of this: that of the 53,000 aliens at least 20,000 are British-born, and of that 20,000 it is assumed that something like 10,000 are in khaki, serving our cause today. In some figures I have before me I notice, for instance, that Southwark, with its 188,000 population, has three members, whereas Stepney, with its 275,000, is credited with one member. I think the Committee will agree that both cannot be right. If one part of London is entitled to three members for 188,000, then I think it is only fair that 275,000 should have an additional member. For that reason I desire to support the Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
Wandsworth … Metropolitan Borough of Wandsworth Five Balham and Tooting Tooting ward and the part of Balham ward which is not included in the Clapham and Streatham Divisions. Streatham Streatham ward and the part of Balham ward which lies between the Clapham Division, the Streatham ward, and a line drawn from a point opposite the middle of Ormeley Road in the middle of Balham High Road along the middle of Balbam High Road to a point opposite the middle of Elmfield Road, thence continuously along the middle of Elmfield Road, Cloudesdale Road, Bushnell Road, and Eimbourne Road to the boundary of the Balham ward.
I beg to move, in column 5, to leave out the words "and Streatham Divisions," and to insert instead thereof the word "Division."
I think some mistake has been made by the Boundary Commissioners in placing a portion of the ward of Balham in the ward of Streatham. I introduced the deputation on this matter to the Home Secretary, and it was not desired by any of the local people that this boundary should stand as in the Report of the Commissioners. Balham is an area by itself, and the only reason for this wedge having been driven into Balham and taking part of it away to add to the Streatham Division was for the purpose of bringing up Streatham to the numerical strength of the new divisions. But there was an Instruction to the Commissioners that, so far as possible, administrative areas should form the boundary. In the case of this portion of Balham there is a big Common—Tooting Bee Common—between Balham and Streatham, about a mile and a half across. There is no community of interests between the two portions of the borough. It also takes a number of streets in Balham, so that half the streets will be in the new Parliamentary Division of Streatham and half the streets in the new Parliamentary Division of Balham and Tooting. In addition to that you are going to put one side of the High Road, Balham, which is the main road out of London to Brighton, in the new Streatham Division, and the other side of the road in the new Balham and Tooting Division. Then the Balham Railway Station, although a mile and a half from Streatham, is to be put in the Parliamentary Borough of Streatham under the new Schedule. It is as if it were proposed, in order to increase the size of this House, that we should take in the outer Lobby so that Members sitting in the outer Lobby would be supposed to be in the House of Commons. That would be about as logical as putting this portion of Balham into Streatham to make up the necessary population. Balham already is as full as it can be of houses, and there is no room for expansion, whilst Streatham has an enormous area undeveloped. The population of Streatham increased since the last Census by 5,000, and the area undeveloped in Streatham is sufficient for an increase in the population of some 50,000 or 60.000 I hope the Home Secretary will find it practicable to meet the wishes of the local inhabitants of Bulham. Tooting, and Streatham.
Anybody who knows the district referred to by the hon. Member for Wandsworth will. I am sure, appreciate the difficulties that are likely to arise if, for instance, the portion just referred to is left as recommended by the Boundary Commissioners. I happen to have a somewhat similar part in my own Constituency at the present time, namely, that part which goes over to the Crystal Palace, and I have appreciated—and friends upon the other side of the Crystal Palace have always appreciated—the difficulty when you have a constituency cutting off one part from another. Apparently the Committee does not think these matters are of any importance unless they happen to be in their own constituency, but I can assure the Committee that many of the local authorities in the borough of Wandsworth at the present time have informed me that they will have considerable difficulty if the matter is left as at present proposed. There will be a mile and a half across Tooting Bee Common dividing one part of the constituency entirely from the other, and considering that the increase of population in the proposed Streatham Division during the last five years has been in the region of 5,000, and also considering the undeveloped land in the Streatham Division and the congested neighbourhood of Balham, I certainly trust that the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept this Amendment, as I am sure it will be to the great advantage of the various municipalities.
I do not observe that there is any opposition to this proposal, and as both constituencies desire a particular adjustment of boundaries it seems to me the Committee may safely accept the Amendment.
Westminster … Metropolitan Borough of Westminster Two Abbey Covent Garden, Great Marlborough, Pall Mall, Regent, St Anne, St. John, St. Margaret, Strand and Charing Cross wards, except the part of Charing Cross ward which is included in the St. George's Division.
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "Two," and to insert instead thereof the word "Three."
Coventry … County Borough of Coventry One — —
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "One." and to insert instead thereof the word "Two."
The contention of my Constituents is that the Boundary Commissioners ought to give them a representation of two members rather than one, and their views appear in a statement which I should like to submit to the Committee. Of course, I know in a matter of this sort every Member considers his constituency should have an increased representation, but I do hope that the Committee will give the facts, which I shall briefly submit to them, their consideration. The facts are contained in the following statement:
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In column 5, at the beginning, insert the word "The."
In column 5, leave out the words "which lies between the Clapham Division, the Streatham Ward, and a line drawn from a point opposite the middle of Ormeley Road in the middle of Balham High Road along the middle of Balham High Road to a point opposite the middle of Elmfield Road, thence continuously along the middle of Elmfield Road, Cloudesdale Road, Bushnell Road, and Elmbourne Road to the boundary of the Balham Ward."—[ Mr. Samuel Samuel. ]
I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
population, but even so was only 4,511 short of the necessary 120,000 to entitle Coventry to return two members to Parliament:
That at the present time the population is taken for vital statistics at 130,000, although it is in fact greatly in excess of that figure:
That the city's rapid increase in population is shown by the following figures, viz.: 1901 census, 69,978; 1911 census, 106,349, and the increase is still continuing:
That Coventry's position as a manufacturing and munitions centre entitles it to special consideration as regards Parliamentary representation:
That the rule that boundaries of Parliamentary constituencies should as far as practicable coincide with the boundaries of administrative areas is one which cannot be complied with for long periods of time in cases like that of Coventry, where, owing to rapid expansion, an extension of its municipal boundary is inevitable, and that in the case of Coventry an application for such an extension has only been deferred in consequence of the War."
I do not propose to press this Amendment at this time. I only wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he will consider these facts before the Report stage, and give this Amendment his consideration. It might be argued that this enormous increase of population since the War might only be transitory, and that after peace a great deal of this increase would disappear. I ask the Committee to consider the past history of this city, and they will find that it has a unique position, and no city in the United Kingdom has progressed more rapidly within such a limited period as Coventry. Ten years previous to the War the population of Coventry increased enormously owing to the development of the motor trade, and this city is now engaged largely in aeroplane construction and other industries. Ten years previous to the War the increase in the population was 50 per cent., and I think the Committee will agree that this is an experience which no other city can compare with in the United Kingdom. I think from those figures we may fairly deduce that the enormous increase which has taken place since the Census of 1914 is likely to be maintained. It seems very
Parliamentary Boroughs
(2) England, Excluding London and Monmouthshire
I beg to move, after the paragraph dealing with Exeter, to insert
The group of Amendments standing in my name have nothing to do with the increase of representation or alteration of boundaries, and they are entirely confined to the name of the constituency. I need not remind the Committee that the name, although it may be considered by some of minor importance, is one to which a good deal of sentiment is attached by the inhabitants of the borough concerned. I ought to explain that I personally, not being the representative of this borough, am entirely disinterested as between the claims of Hythe and Folkestone respectively. I have had no communication with the hon. Member for the Hythe constituency, and the only reason why I have ventured to put down this Amendment and to put these facts before the House is that when the views of the people of Folkestone were brought to my attention I told them that while I was entirely disinterested myself, and could express no strong feeling one way or the other, I did think that they were entitled to have their case stated to the Committee and laid before the right hon. Gentleman, and that as a representative of a neighbouring constituency I was quite prepared to do that for them, although I could not press the views of one part of this constituency as against another.
hard that this city should just miss qualifying for two members by such a small number as 4,000. I hope the Home Secretary will consider this case sympathetically, and give it favourable consideration before the Report stage is reached.
The deficiency in this case is 4,500. It is true that there has been a large increase for the moment, but that is due to the influx of munition workers, and we cannot assume that that will continue. I do not like to hold out any hope that this point will be dealt with on the Report stage, but I hope Coventry will do better in the next Bill.
Amendment negatived.
The Amendment I have put down is that the name of this borough should be Folkestone and not Hythe, and the following Amendment in my name is consequential upon that. The third Amendment is an alternative proposing that the name of the borough should be Hythe and Folkestone. This joint borough has been represented for a long time in Parliament during which no doubt the title of the borough has been Hythe. The Folkestone people think that importance ought to be attached to the fact that the larger part of the constituency is in Folkestone and not in Hythe, and while Hythe, as a Parliamentary borough, is one of the most ancient in the country, Folkestone also has a very ancient and honourable Parliamentary history, and as early as the year 1336 it was named in Writ of Summons as well as Hythe. Apart from these old historical reasons the people of Folkestone lay great stress upon the fact that a very large part of the constituency is situated in Folkestone, and they maintain that Folkestone occupied the more central position and is more convenient as a centre of business in connection with Parliamentary elections. I have stated quite shortly the views of the Folkestone people in favour of making the name of the borough Folkestone, and I leave it entirely to my right hon. Friend and the Committee to decide whether that view is a fair one and one to which effect ought to be given. When I come to my fourth Amendment I may point out that the people feel a little aggrieved to find that although they are a municipal borough and have been for a long time, they are degraded, if it is a degradation, to the mere position of an urban district in the description which is given of them in column 2 as to contents of the Parliamentary borough of Hythe. It is a trifling alteration, but, after all, there are matters of dignity to be considered, and my Amendment is merely a different description of the contents of the borough without making any alteration of the actual contents, in order to describe the boroughs of Hythe and Folkestone and the urban districts of So-and-so, which is another way of describing exactly the same area as already appears in the Schedule.
I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not listen to the appeal of the hon. Gentleman opposite, because I do not think he has made out any case for this proposed alteration of the name of the borough of Hythe, which has had continuous membership in this House, with one exception, for nearly six hundred years. As far as I can make out, the proposition which has been put forward seems to me to have gone outside the Boundary Commissioners' Instructions. The borough of Hythe received its member according to the Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners because it had a population of over 50,000. There was no question of altering its character or its name, but for some reason or another there was a notice sent out for an inquiry to be held by the assistant secretary to the Parliamentary borough of Folkestone, and the inquiry was held at Folkestone. Now there is no Parliamentary borough of Folkestone, because it is the Parliamentary borough of Hythe and the inquiry should have been held at Hythe, which has always been the centre of the borough. That inquiry was held, and the Boundary Commissioners reversed their original suggestion and came back, as we see in the Schedule to the proposal, that the old borough should retain its name, and, I think, quite justly. There is an Instruction to the Boundary Com- missioners which gives the right to a disfranchised borough to give its name to a county division, and it would be very hard indeed if the only one of the Kent boroughs which has survived this Reform Bill should have its name taken away, whilst all the others which have been disfranchised have been given the liberty to give the names of the disfranchised constituencies to the county. I do not want to go into the ancient history which my hon. Friend only just alluded to, but I am sure that this House would be sorry that the Cinque Ports should cease to be represented in this House, for they have been an integral part of our Constitution for a great number of years, and Hythe is the only one of them that has representation distinctly as a Cinque Port, and I think it should retain that continuity.
As to popular opinion, the name of Hythe has at its back the unanimous opinion of all the outside districts. Certain villages which are now cut out, the urban council of Cheriton and the urban district council of Sandgate, were all in favour of the name of Hythe being retained. The Mayor of Folkestone himself, who is an extremely good representative, acknowledged in the council meeting at Folkestone on the 20th June that he was so conservative that he could not agree to the proposed change of name because it would raise too much animosity with Hythe. The name, he said, had been Hythe from time immemorial, and he could not conscientiously agree to the name being changed. He changed his opinion somewhat later, because at the inquiry he said he was quite willing to leave it to the committee, and they decided that it should remain Hythe. Therefore, I still have the Mayor of Folkestone in my favour. I certainly would appeal to the Home Secretary to leave this matter in the position in which it has stood from time immemorial, and he should not deprive the borough, which by its population has a right to retain its representation, of its name. My hon. Friend suggests as an alternative that it should be called the borough of Hythe and Folkestone. If that was done—I am surprised that the Folkestone people did not bring forward that view at the inquiry, because it was never suggested then—I think it is far better to keep the single title. We have very good precedence for that, and I hope, therefore, the Home Secretary will not listen to the inducements held out by the Mover of the Amendment.
I think as regards the name, the Commissioners have come to a right conclusion. I do not for a moment dispute the growing importance of the borough of Folkestone, but Hythe is an old name, and I think we should like to retain it. I hope, therefore, my hon. Friend will not press the point. With regard to the fourth Amendment which he has on the Paper, I agree that his description is better than the one in the Schedule,
Hythe … … Municipal Borough of Hythe and Urban Districts of Cheriton, Folkestone and Sand gate One — —
Amendment made: In column 2, leave out the words, "Municipal Borough of Hythe and Urban Districts of Cheriton, Folkestone and Sandgate," and insert instead thereof the words "Boroughs of
Kingston-upon-Hull County Borough of Kingston-upon-Hull Four Central Beverley, East Central, Myton, Paragon, West Central and White-friars wards. East Alexandra, Drypool and Southcoates wards. North-West Albert, Botanic, Newland and Park wards. South-West Coltman, North Newington and South Newington wards.
I beg to move, in column 5, to leave out the word "Beverley," and to insert instead thereof the word "Albert."
The City of Hull hitherto has had three constituencies, West, Central, and East. A Commissioner came down to the city, and I had the pleasure of being present at the whole of the interview with that gentleman. The scheme that was then submitted was very much more compact than the one which finally appeared in the Blue Book. The only objection that was raised by the Commissioner on that occasion was that there was no outlet in Central Hull for an increase in the constituency as there was in the other constituencies. I have been looking through the boroughs which are contained in the Blue Book, and I find that very few, if any—indeed I cannot find any central division that has an outlet, the absence of which was complained of in the case of Central Hull. Now, Central Hull has a number of advantages that the other constituencies do not possess. For example, it embraces about 80 per cent. of the duplicate voters, as nearly all the merchants, solicitors, and professional men who live outside the city will vote in the central division. Moreover, female voters with an occupation qualification—those who have shops in the city—will also vote
which does not pay due attention to the dignity of the borough of Folkestone. I am therefore willing to accept that Amendment.
I will ask permission to withdraw the first three Amendments standing in my name, and at the same time I thank the right hon. Gentleman for accepting the fourth.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Hythe and Folkestone with Urban District of Cheriton and so much of the Urban District of Sandgate as is not comprised in the Municipal Borough of Folkestone."—[ Mr. R. McNeill. ]
in the central division, and we who represent the outskirts will be deprived of the great advantage which the member for Central Hull will possess against us. Again, looking at the division on the map, I venture to suggest Central Hull, instead of being compact, will cut from the extreme south on the banks of the Humber to the extreme north. It is called Central Hull, but that is all that is central about it. It goes along the Humber, three and three-quarter miles, from the extreme south to the extreme north. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Central Hull ought to agree to this transfer. I have searched through the maps of other large cities, and I fail to find any analogous division in any of them. Take, for instance, Newcastle, Leeds, Bradford, Birmingham, Bristol, and Sheffield. All these cities have central divisions; but not one of them has the outlet to the country for expansion, which in our case has been suggested as absolutely necessary. The only argument I heard used when the commissioner was down there, and when he submitted a scheme which was much more geographically satisfactory, in my judgment, and in the judgment of many citizens, was that the one proposed in the final map, instead of being literally central, really was a slice cut through the city from the extreme south to the extreme north. What influence has been brought to bear in order to secure the change I do not know; but I do trust this Committee will revert to the original and much more compact and easily worked scheme.
I hope my right hon. Friend (Mr. Ferens) will not press this Amendment to a Division. Good reasons were given which caused the commissioner to alter the original plan. My right hon. Friend prefers the original scheme because it makes a prettier map. I submit, however, that the reasons submitted to the commissioner for going back upon his original proposal were very sound. They were these: that, under modern conditions, in an expanding town, an isolated constituency must always dwindle away if it is cut off from sources of expansion. My right hon. Friend says that the Commissioners have not taken stock of that in any of the other great towns; but perhaps that is because, owing to geographical reasons, it was impossible to do so. In a great city like Hull, which runs along a river front, it is easier to create a sequence of constituencies running along the river than to circle the city. Let us take note of what has actually happened in Hull. In 1885 Hull was broken into three constituencies, one with 55,000 inhabitants, one with 67,000, and the third with 62,000. By 1915, owing to the growth of the town, the outlying constituency of 55,000 became 80,000 and upwards, the outlying constituency of 62,000 became 143,000, and the central constituency, which had 67,000, had dropped to 66,000. It began to break down in 1890, and has since got worse and worse. In this redistribution I hope my right hon Friend who is in charge of this Bill will, as far as Hull is concerned, see that it is broken up into something which will be fairly permanent, and which will last at least until the next revision. If it is broken up as proposed by the Commissioner, we shall start with all four divisions fairly equal. If they expand they will expand more or less equally, and we shall not find at the next revision, one constituency very much smaller than the other three. I hope, therefore, my right hon. Friend will not accept this Amendment.
This is what I called in another connection a domestic question, but in this case the home authorities are not agreed. I understand the point is this: It is desired to transfer a ward from one of the Hull Divisions to another. The scheme adopted by the Commissioners was that put forward by the Parliamentary Committee of the Town Council, and the reason given for it was that it was desired to include in Central Hull some area in which the population was likely to grow, so as not to cut it off from any prospect of expansion. That seemed to the Assistant Commissioner to be a good object, and he consequently departed from the original scheme and adopted the present one. This is one of those questions of detail on which, I think, we are almost bound to take the decision of the man who held the inquiry, and of the Boundary Commission. It is impossible for this House, with the materials which we have, to come to a decision as between my right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Ferens) and my hon. Friend behind me (Colonel Sir Mark Sykes). I think in this case we are bound to take the decision of the Commission.
8.0 P.M.
I regret that the Home Secretary has taken the view he has done, because it is so opposed to that in regard to the Wandsworth Division, in which there is a certain similarity of characteristics. If you look at the map, Central Hull is no longer the central portion of the city. I should not speak on this matter but I am a native of the city. I spend the greater part of my life there, and have take an interest in its local affairs from time to time. Central Hull is no longer the centre of the great commercial interests of that part, but has been made a pathway from the Humber through the constituency of my hon. and gallant Friend to that represented by the Member for Holderness (Captain Stanley Wilson), and any extension will be a diversion of those who are at present in his constituency. It is really a road from the river to No Man's Land, electorally speaking. There was a possibility of having a complete constituency as suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Colonel Sir Mark Sykes) by the acceptance of the Albert Ward, which really was included in the first draft, as my hon. and gallant Friend will remember, and which would have made it entirely in harmony with the great commercial interest of that particular division which my hon. and gallant Friend has the honour to represent as the great commercial division of that city. Its banks and great offices represent all the great commercial interests of the city, and it seems to me a great pity that it should be mixed up with a large amount of villadom and agriculture, which is hardly in harmony with its commercial character, and which has been preserved in every large city in the Kingdom in this boundary scheme. As to expansion, that is a matter of readaptation, and I was surprised to find from the figures of my hon. and gallant Friend that there had been such a small difference considering the way in which the Central Division has been surrounded by other large and expanding divisions. I thought it had decreased very much more. I should like the Home Secretary to listen to what has been put forward. There are members of the corporation who are very much averse to this change. It was passed by a small committee, and I understand that the town clerk had not the facts of the map before him when the suggestion was made—that is the first draft of the Commissioners. I do not really think that the reason that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hull (Mr. Ferens) raises this question is in order to make "a pretty map," but it would be very much more in harmony with the traditions of that great city if his views were carried out, and I hope the Home Secretary will listen to the Amendment that has been proposed.
I am quite in accord with the right hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Ferens) when he tells the Committee that, in his opinion, it is not the best division that could possibly have been made of the city. The Central Division as it now stands is a long, straggling constituency, 3½ to 3¾ miles long, from the Humber right away to the boundary of Hull to the north, and about three-quarters of a mile wide. The Beverley Ward, which is maintained in the scheme now before Parliament, is not entirely linked up, and therefore there is room for some slight expansion in that direction. Nevertheless, the amount of expansion that can take place is very small, and it could and never should be an important factor in the consideration of this question. As it now stands, Central Hull contains all the merchants and the manufacturers and the large traders who are out-town residents, and who will come in as out-voters. The Beverley Ward is of a very good residential class, whereas the Albert Ward, which is now excluded, is a purely working-class ward. I think, therefore, that it would have been far better to have combined the merchants, traders, and outvoters with the purely working-class portions of the constituency. It would have been a very much fairer arrangement. The Home Secretary has drawn attention to the fact that the Corporation of Hull appeared before the inquiry through the town clerk and made a suggestion which has now superseded the one originally made by the Commissioners. I was not at the inquiry, but all I can say from those whom I heard speak of the inquiry is that the bulk of those who attended, including the representatives of the Labour party, were quite satisfied with the Commissioners' scheme as originally laid before them, and there is a great amount of surprise and disappointment in the city of Hull that that scheme should have been altered in any way. It is true that the town clerk gave some evidence in favour of the alteration, but, as the last hon. Member who spoke said, that does not represent the whole of the corporation. I have known Hull, as well as the right hon. Member for East Hull, nearly all my life, and speaking as one who has occupied the position of Mayor of Hull for five years, and who has taken part in the work of the corporation for the last twenty years, I feel that it would not be wise to take too much notice of the evidence given at the inquiry, and for this reason: I do not think the committee when they considered this matter and prepared a scheme had any idea of what the scheme of the Commissioners was that was to be considered, and therefore they passed their resolution without knowing what the Commissioners' scheme was. The Commissioners having submitted that scheme, it having been approved by, I believe, the bulk of the people who appeared before the Commissioners, I think it is a great pity that at this time it should be altered, in whose interests I am not able to say nor for what purpose. The scheme has been altered since it was received by the people at the inquiry, and after they had gone away believing that it would be ultimately adopted. I hope the right hon. Member for East Hull will press his Amendment, because I am quite sure that his is a better scheme. It certainly mixes up the rich and the poor in a better way than the scheme which has now been adopted.
I rise to support the right hon. Member for East Hull (Mr. Ferens). Strong representations have been made to us who represent the Labour interest in the House of Commons from, the Labour interest in Hull, and very intense feeling exists in Hull with reference to the alteration that has been made in the division. From what I can learn they were perfectly satisfied with the scheme as originally laid down, and neither they nor anyone else seemed to be able to understand why the alteration has been made. We have been told that the Town Clerk is responsible for the scheme as it now stands. I suppose most of us have had experience of town clerks, and know—
The Parliamentary Committee.
I understood that the Town Clerk himself made the suggestion.
We were informed that he spoke on behalf of the Parliamentary Committee.
That may be so, and I do not dispute it at all. I understand there was a small committee appointed to deal with the plan, but, so far as I can learn, it has never been submitted to the council.
Manchester … County Borough of Manchester Ten … Ardwick Ardwick, New Cross and St. Mark's wards. Blackley Blackley, Crumpsail and Moston wards. Collyhurst Collyhurst, Harpurhey and Miles Platting wards, and the part of St. Michael's ward which is not included in the Exchange Division. Exchange Cheetham, Collegiate Church, Exchange, Oxford, St. Ann's, St. Clement's and St. John's wards, and the part of St. Michael's ward which lies to the north-west of a line drawn along the middle of Rochdale Road Gorton Gorton North, Gorton South, and Openshaw wards. Hulme Medlock Street, Moss Side West and St. George's wards. Moss Side All Saints, Moss Side East and St. Luke's wards. Newton Heath Beswick, Bradford and Newton Heath wards. Rusholme Levenshulme, Longsight and Rusholme wards. Withington Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Didsbury and Withington wards.
I beg to move, in Column 5, to leave out the words, "New Cross and St. Mark's," and to insert instead thereof the words, "Beswick and Bradford."
I do not want there to be any misunderstanding upon tins point. It was submitted to the council in the ordinary way through the minutes, and there was no Debate on it whatever. I for one did not observe it.
I understand that the matter has slipped through, and has not received the attention it might have done. It seems to me that there has been a case made out for further consideration. After all, it is the essence of success that agreement should be obtained as far as that is possible. I am convinced in my own mind that there is a very strong divergence of opinion in regard to the scheme as it now stands, and I ask what injury could accrue if the matter were referred back for further consideration and in that way for giving the people in the constituency a chance to come together on a scheme that might be agreed and acceptable to all? That is, after all, everything that the Amendment desires to get at, and if by this brief Debate in the House such an arrangement might be brought about I am sure it would be satisfactory to everybody, not only in this House, but in the constituency itself.
Amendment negatived.
Perhaps it would be the most convenient course for me to refer to the Amendments I have on the Paper as a whole. There are a number in reference to Manchester. The possibility that the Home Secretary can see his way to reconsider the position in reference to Manchester is contemplated by them, and the consequential Amendments that I have put down will be necessary to carry out the scheme if a readjustment is made of the whole. It seems to me, as far as I can learn, that the system followed by the Boundary Commissioners has, to a very large extent, ignored some of the most plain and easily defined boundaries, such as the river, the Medlock, the great main roads, and other very obvious boundary areas in their efforts to arrive at a scheme which has a maximum of disturbance and a minimum of convenience. Out of these constituencies there is one which has always had a reputation of standing for, and being pre-eminently associated with, the commercial interests of Manchester; and not only of Manchester but of Lancashire generally. It is the great centre of the Manchester cotton trade and of a large area around Manchester which finds there its offices, its shops, its warehouses, and is representative more largely perhaps of the industrial interests of Lancashire than any other one constituency. If that had not been marred in the making perhaps I should not have been moving the series of Amendments standing in my name, but the character of this constituency has in my opinion been very unnecessarily changed. It seems to me to be well worth while trying to secure the objects which the Boundary Commissioners were instructed to secure, and not to nullify the effect of the two votes which Parliament in its wisdom has decided shall be given to certain electors. Electors having a second vote and exercising it in large commercial areas, have some claim that it should be effective for the purpose for which it is given, but the commercial element in the North-West Division of Manchester, which under this scheme will be called the Exchange Division, will be to a large extent swamped by the inclusion of an area which has no desire to be included, and which has nothing in common with the general commercial interests of Manchester. In fact, it is an area which has a very low voting proportion to its total population.
The Boundary Commissioners were instructed to have regard to electorate rather than to population, where it appeared that the proportion of electors to population was abnormal. It is clearly abnormal in this particular constituency. The second, or business, vote has been nullified in this constituency by the Commissioners swamping it with residential votes. The present North-West Division, which will be called the Exchange Division, contains 12,800 odd Parliamentary electors, and a population of 64,823, which gives a percentage of 19.87, or 3 per cent. more than the average quoted in the Commissioner's report, namely, 16.8. In the business wards, however, the figures are more marked. Here there are 7,695 Parliamentary electors, with a population of 15,548, giving an average of population per elector of 2.02 and a percentage of 49.49 of electors to population. In the new division, which adds a population of 7,081 from an entirely working class ward with an electorate of 897, the total is brought up to 13,780 Parliamentary electors with a population of 71,900 odd, or a percentage of electors to population of 19.16, which is 3.11 higher than the average for the whole of the City and 2.28 higher than the next division. This particular constituency on the basis of the calculation will have something like 84,000 population, and an electorate of between 36,000 and 41,000, because there are 16,000 business voters to be added.
May I ask the hon. Member what is the population he proposes?
The population that I propose is 71,900.
I understood you to say that was according to the Commissioner's scheme.
I beg your pardon. The Commissioners' scheme gives 71,529, but besides that it is estimated there are 16,000 non-resident electors.
Those are not the figures given by the Commissioners.
It will be an abnormally large area, both in regard to population and to electorate. In the city of Glasgow the central or commercial area has been given a population of 66,500, a much smaller population than it is proposed to include in the commercial area of Manchester. What stirs the people of Manchester in this constituency more than anything else is that it should preserve its commercial character, and that in the future, as in the past, it should be representative of commercial interests. If there is to be any addition to the electorate, it should be of the same type or character. The chamber of commerce passed resolutions and appeared before the Commissioners and objected to an interference with the character of the constituency. I have just received a letter from the president of the chamber and it reads as follows:
"I regret to see, despite the representations made to the Assistant Commissioner, both at the Town Hall inquiry and since, that it has been apparently decided to incorporate half of St. Michael's ward in the Exchange Division."
He refers to my connection with the Division, and then proceeds:
From the point of view of Manchester business men, it seems to myself and other colleagues on the Board at the Chamber of Commerce that it is an exceedingly unreasonable decision to switch into what has always been in the past a more or less commercial division an extra element which cannot by any stretch of imagination be put into such a category."
He hopes that we shall be successful in getting the half of St. Michael's Ward deleted from the new Manchester Exchange Division. A large majority of the Manchester City Corporation signed a petition protesting against this particular change. The representative of St. Michael's Ward, which it is proposed to include in the Exchange Division, appeared at the inquiry, and protested against their being included. We were told by him that they did not wish to be included. Their interests were industrial, and they would rather be associated with an industrial area such as that with which they have been associated in times past. If the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to promise to consider the case of Manchester as a whole it would preclude the necessity of going into the details of the adjustments which would become necessary upon the preservation of this constituency as pre-eminently commercial, as it has an historic right to regard itself. I regret the absence of my right hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), who takes a particular interest in the constituency, and who, I think, would support the view I am putting forward to-night. Parliament wishes large sections of the community to be properly represented, and special consideration has been given to the City of London. Manchester, perhaps, is second to London, but when consideration is being given to questions of this kind it is entitled to have a fair hearing, and to retain the preeminently commercial character of one of its ten constituencies.
My hon. Friend (Sir J. Randles) who shares with me in the representation of the City of Manchester has put down a whole string of Amendments, but he very quickly passed away from the first Amendment, and perhaps 95 per cent. of his speech related to the present constituency of North-West Manchester and the proposed Exchange Division of Manchester. In the first part of his speech he talked about the Boundary Commissioners, having apparently ignored the natural boundary lines, such as rivers and main roads. He did not tell us which rivers he had in mind.
I mentioned one river—the Medlock.
I am sorry I did not hear it. I defy him or any other person in Manchester to find where that river goes, as so much of it is covered in. Nobody knows where it is, unless they have an intimate knowledge of Manchester from a sewage point of view. As regards roads, he did not tell us very much; therefore the question centres round the Exchange Division. In what way has the present proposition embodied in the Schedule come into being? As I understand the matter, the Town Clerk of Manchester was invited by the Boundary Commissioner to prepare a scheme. He consulted the leaders of the three political parties in the city council and prepared a scheme. Subsequently there was a conference, at which the representatives of the various parties were present, and it was then pointed out that because the Manchester Town Hall happened to be in St. John's Ward and St. John's Ward happened to be put, under the Town Clerk's scheme, into another division than North-West Lancashire, it was thought, for sentimental reasons, that it was desirable that the Town Hall should be in North-West Manchester. All of the political parties present agreed, for sentimental reasons, that that was desirable, and no one objected to St. John's Ward remaining, as it is at present, in the suggested Exchange Division. That made it necessary that the proposed contiguous divisions should be looked into and modifications made, so that the scheme should hang together. Modifications were proposed which resulted in a scheme being agreed, which was substantially the Town Clerk's scheme with one or two slight alterations. That scheme was proposed and agreed to by two political parties. At that point a totally different scheme was proposed by one of the political parties. The scheme that was proposed by two of the political parties was provisionally accepted by the Boundary Commissioner and advertised as such. I suppose it would be in the nature of the basis of an agenda paper for the purposes of his public inquiry. The public inquiry was held and the matter was gone into very thoroughly indeed. My hon. Friend and his friends appeared at that inquiry. Unfortunately, I was not able to go and I did not put in an appearance at all, but my hon. Friend was there, and he and his friends had their case thoroughly exploited by counsel and gone into from the point of view of witnesses and letters from the same gentleman belonging to the chamber of commerce to whom he has referred, and others, all suggesting that the scheme which had been provisionally adopted by the Commissioner should be ruled out and that another scheme should be substituted No agreement was reached.
Later on there was a private conference summoned by the Boundary Commissioner, at which a very strong, urgent request was made by him that an agreed scheme should be arrived at. In point of fact, no agreed scheme was arrived at. Although there were various offers made, seeing that the proposals radically differed from each other, no result was attained, and eventually the Boundary Commissioners promulgated the scheme which is in the Schedule now before us. My hon. Friend objects to the scheme because—I understand he alleges no other point—it interferes with the proposed Exchange Division. He does so on the ground that it is a commercial constituency; sometimes he says wholly so, and sometimes he says it is more or less a commercial constituency. In my lifetime I have seen a change in the nature of that constituency. My hon. Friend is, indeed, my representative in this House. I am a voter in North-West Manchester, and have been since I have been in business. My hon. Friend talks of North-West Manchester being the centre of the cotton trade and representative of the cotton industry of the whole of Lancashire. So far as votes are concerned, I am ready to suggest to him that he ought really to look into that matter a little further. I should like to point out to him—he is not a resident in Manchester; I do not blame him for that. Many of the chief commercial cotton houses in Manchester are not voters in North-West Manchester. Even the gentleman on whose evidence he relies, the president of the Manchester Chamber of Commerce, a good friend of mine, and a director of a company of which I am a director—we work together—he is not a voter in North-West Manchester. Why? Because he is a director of a limited company. Take the big firms in Manchester. I do not think I ought to go into names particularly. I see two members of the cotton trade present and I am certain they will agree with me that many of the big cotton houses in Manchester are not even voters in North-West Manchester for the reason that they are limited companies and, therefore, do not have the opportunity of voting.
May I ask my hon. Friend where he supposes the 16,000 out-voters to reside or for where they are qualified if it is not for places outside Manchester, as non-resident electors in that city?
I do not know if my hon. Friend suggests that because a man is a director of a limited company he is, therefore, entitled to vote in the proposed Exchange Division.
No. My suggestion was with regard to the 16,000 out-voters.
I will take the next point. My hon. Friend is rather troubled at the idea that he and North-West Manchester are going to be swamped by the whole of St. Michael's Ward. He ought to have told the Committee that the proposal is only in regard to one-half of St. Michael's Ward. However, I leave that point. Take the case of the out-voters Assuming that the Bill comes into force, there will be about 8,000 non-residential men voters and probably about 6,000 non-residential women voters. The total number of voters of half St. Michael's Ward, on which he relies, cannot, in the maximum, be more than 3,000 voters. How, then, is he going to be swamped by these 3,000 voters, in comparison with the 8,000 non-residential men voters and the 6,000 non-residential women voters? It is a mathematical inaccuracy on his part to think that he will be swamped from this point of view. But on the point of the commercial values of North-West Manchester, I agree that when the first Member for North-West Manchester, Sir William Houldsworth, came into the House there was a very definite claim that North-West Manchester could and did occupy a special commercial position, but there has been a very large change in the nature of the constituency. If I walked down King Street I should hardly come across 10 per cent. of the offices occupied by private firms. In my street there is the Bank of England, there is the National Provincial Bank, the Lancashire and Yorkshire Bank, the Manchester and Counties and other banks, and there are insurance offices. They have no votes whatever. Certainly there is a large number of votes in the hands of shopkeepers, of licenceholders, and of the legal profession, and these are the kind of votes on which my hon. Friend is at the moment relying and confusing them as being commercial votes. I deny entirely this claim to commercial altitude which he makes. In view of the fact that this matter has been gone into very thoroughly indeed at a local inquiry which was public—the time was occupied very largely indeed by my hon. Friend and his friends in investigating the claims of North-West Manchester—in view of the fact that private conferences have been held and that the proposal originally put forward by the town clerk has been substantially reproduced in the Schedule, I submit there is no occasion whatever for any alteration to take place at this stage by this Committee. I cannot see how this Committee can deal with all these intricate points. If the matter had not been gone into by a public inquiry, if no efforts had been made at an agreed scheme, I could understand there being room for discussion, but is the Committee to introduce all these points which my hon. Friend has brought forward, all of which have been gone into locally at an inquiry at which he himself was present? I hope the Committee will reject the Amendment.
I am sorry I did not hear the speech of my hon. Friend (Sir J. Randles), but I understand that as his Amendment only appears on the Paper to-day he has asked that consideration of it should be postponed, and probably nothing will be done until the Report stage. I alluded to the case of North-West Manchester in speaking on the general subject of the Boundaries Commissioners' Schedule some little time ago, and I contrasted the manner in which Manchester had been divided with the case of Glasgow. In Manchester there is really some inquiry needed. They have entirely ignored, as far as I can see, in dealing with the North-West Division the question of the electorate of 16,000, and have given up to the average percentage of population. The second thing they have done is that they have utterly ignored the River Division and divisions given by main roads and railways, and have muddled up whole constituencies in such a way as to make it perfectly clear that there was some object in view in doing it. I do not know enough about the facts to know, but I was told enough, on the map which was put before me, to make it perfectly clear that this is a question which ought to be looked into. We want to avoid—and I think the Commissioners have almost entirely avoided in their Schedules—any kind of doubt as to their being quite unbiassed politically in dealing with the redistribution of the country. I do not think any complaint can be lodged against them on the score that they have been biassed one way or the other. They have, no doubt, been influenced by local considerations, probably by local inquiry. They may have been influenced by an official here and there who put before them schemes which they adopted without in the slightest degree feeling in their minds that they had any kind of significance. I cannot understand why in the world this part of St. Michael's ward is dragged into North-West Manchester. It is pulled in by the hair of its head. It has no connection with it whatever. It is not in the least like it in interests or in the quality of the population or the nature of its employment or position. It is muddling up two sets of interests which are wholly different and which it was not in the least necessary to muddle.
Is the hon. Baronet really acquainted with the subject he is talking about? Is he acquainted with the locality when he says there is no community of interest between one part of the ward and another?
You have in North-West Manchester, as at present constituted, a commercial population of great importance. You have, in the other part which has been dragged in, an industrial population of a wholly different kind.
Does the hon. Baronet say that Red Bank has commercial interests? Does he say that Cheetham Hill has commercial interests? He must be very careful in making these statements.
I have looked into the matter with great care. It attracted my attention to start with, because I contrasted it with Glasgow, and the two places are very like one another in many respects. It was part of my job. I had to look into the whole of the Schedules. I do not know enough about local conditions in Manchester to be able to answer the questions which the hon. Member has put to me, but I understand there is a distinct difference between the North-West Division as now constituted and this important part which has been dragged into it. My hon. Friend (Sir J. Randles) tells me that is correct, and I do not go any farther. The other point I made about the 16,000 electors wants to be looked into. The hon. Member (Mr. Needham) described one street in Manchester, but has it changed within recent years? Has it not always been like that? Have not the Bank of England and the other banks always been there? Obviously that condition has not changed at all.
We were dealing with the cotton trade.
That does not in the least affect the position. It has been so all along. I only rose to urge upon my right hon. Friend that this is a case which he should not dismiss lightly, and that it requires to be looked into. It is right that it should be looked into. An alteration in North-West Manchester might involve certain alterations in favour of six other divisions, but they are perfectly simply made, and cannot in any way affect the representation of the City in point of numbers, whilst, it would be kept more nearly to the existing condition of things than under the new scheme. It is very desirable that we should do so. It would be much more clear and would be a better arrangement in every way.
I want to support the speeches made by my hon. Friend (Sir J. Bandies) and to answer the speech made by the hon. Member for South-West Manchester (Mr. Needham), who has tried to make out that the old North-West Division of Manchester does not in any way represent the cotton trade.
I did not say that.
The hon. Member was rather unfortunate in selecting the chairman of the chamber of commerce and stating that he had not a vote in North-West Manchester. As a matter of fact, that gentleman votes in my Constituency and also in North-West Manchester.
My point was that in his capacity as a director and chairman of a limited company in Manchester he is not a voter.
I think I have been successful in taking out of the minds of the Committee the one instance which the hon. Member gave. It is ordinary common knowledge of everybody who has been interested in politics for many years that North-West Manchester has always been claimed as the division of Manchester which represents the commercial community and exceptionally the cotton industry. We had the present Minister of Munitions as member for North-West Manchester, and he departed from that high position and went to Dundee. The present Leader of the House of Commons came to fight North-West Manchester, and the right hon Member for Walthamstow promises in the future, if the Government allows us a General Election, to come to North-West Manchester. Why does he come to North-West Manchester? It is because this division of Manchester is looked upon by the whole country as representing the business interests of Manchester. Why should the representative character of this division be taken away by pushing into this particular division, which is now called the Exchange Division, half a ward which that division does not want and which does not itself want to be put into the division? The hon. Member says that there has been a conference held, and that this is the result of that conference. But he confesses in a weak moment that no agreement was reached at the conference.
It was an inquiry, not a conference.
No agreement was arrived at in that inquiry. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to refer this matter back. Manchester is very much dissatisfied. Manchester wants proper boundaries of main roads. My hon. Friend sneers at rivers. There are occasionally dirty streams that are to be seen even in Manchester. Why cannot they be used, and why cannot railways and other national boundaries be used so that the ordinary person who does not worry all the year about elections, but who occasionally has to register a vote, may know something about the boundaries of his constituency and know in which constituency his vote is to be given?
I am sorry that this Amendment should have appeared so late on the Paper, because my right hon. Friend and I would have liked to have bad a fuller opportunity of doing to Manchester what we have done in every other case where there has been a dispute between the parties, and that is to examine the map very carefully ourselves, to go with some detail into the circumstances of the whole case, to inquire what it was that led the Commissioners to take certain views, and so to form our own judgment as to what decision we ought to advise the House to come to on particular cases when a dispute arises as to the adoption of the Commissioners' Report in its entirety. When we come to redivide a great city like Manchester and to apportion to that city ten members instead of six, I think everybody will at once admit that we may look for a good deal of difference of opinion between different parties and different interests. I was very glad that the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) said there was no suspicion as regards the Commissioners that they bad acted with any political motives. I think no praise is too high for the Commissioners who have performed this wonderfully difficult task, and I believe with the Home Secretary that when we come to look at the very few substantial Amendments that are down upon the Paper to the work of the Committee, and the singular agreement that there is when there was so much opportunity for disagreement, it is an enormous tribute to the work of the Boundary Commissioners that they have done so much to satisfy all parties and all interests in their decisions.
Anybody who has listened to the arguments in this Debate adduced by the hon. Member for North-West Manchester and countered by the hon. Member for South-West Manchester must have felt that there was real need for looking carefully into the case and real necessity for giving a little more consideration than we are able to give in the Committee stage to-night. Therefore I will say to my hon. Friend the Member for North-West Manchester that, without sharing his views or without sharing the views expressed by the hon. Member for South-West Manchester, the Home Secretary and I will carefully consider the arguments which have been presented to us to-night and will go very carefully into the matter before the Report stage, when we shall be in a better position to advise the House as to what attitude it should adopt towards the Commissioners' Report. It is noteworthy that the hon. Member for South-West Manchester should have thought it worth while to study so very closely the constituency for which my hon. Friend (Sir J. Randles) sits. I have been in this House a very long time, and I have always been brought up to suppose that the great constituency of North-West Manchester does represent the magnitude and might of the commerce of Manchester, especially the cotton commerce of Manchester. I should be sorry to have that idol broken. I remember, as my hon. and gallant Friend (Major Hamilton) has just said, that North-West Manchester has proved exceedingly attractive to men of great distinction and great ability. A very old friend of mine, the late Sir William Houldsworth, occupied the seat for a long time with great distinction not only to himself but to the constituency. I hope that nothing will be done to disparage that constituency, and that it will always secure for its representatives men of great influence and energy.
The case as put by the hon. Member (Sir J. Randles) is this: Here we are a very happy family, mainly interested in the great commercial question of Manchester, and the Boundary Commissioners come along and suddenly put into the Constituency half the inhabitants of the ward of St. Michael's, who have not the same identity of interests as the voters to whom we have hitherto appealed in this Constituency. That is a matter of dispute into which we are going to inquire. I shall give no opinion whatever upon that subject, but looking at the argument of population I must say that the Boundary Commissioners have a good deal of argument on their side. The figures of the existing division are 66,074, and with this ward thrown into the division the population in Exchange Division will be brought up to 75,016, as compared with an average of 73,183 for the ten divisions of Manchester as a whole. Therefore I do not think the hon. Member put his case too strongly upon that. I do not think he could have a strong ease or any case at all on the matter of added population. But if that added population can be proved to be of a nature which is distinct in its general character and in its aims and ideals from the main bulk of the constituency, that is a very strong argument for urging the Boundary Commissioners to keep these new voters out of that particular constituency. That is one of the matters into which we will inquire, and though I cannot accept the Amendment which has been moved now, I give my hon. Friend a complete assurance that we will carefully weigh the arguments brought before the Committee to-day and carefully review the whole of the matter before we come to the Report stage. I was very glad to hear my hon. Friend say that if half St. Michael's Ward had
The Medway Boroughs Municipal Boroughs of Chatham, Gillingham and Rochester Two Chatham … Muncipal Borough of Gillingham, St. Mary ward of the Borough of Chatham, and the part of the Municipal Borough of Rochester which is not borough of Rochester which is not included in the Rochester Division. Rochester … Municipal Borough of Rochester (except the part of St. Peter's ward which lies to the north and east of a line drawn, in prolongation of that part of the borough boundary which lies between St. Bartholomew's Chapel and Boundary in the River Medway), and Luton and St. John wards of the borough of Chartham.
I beg to move, in column 1, to leave out the words "The Medway Boroughs" and to insert instead thereof the word "Chatham."
The real question here is one of names. The difficulty is to satisfy the claims of the Borough of Chatham, the Borough of Rochester, and the new constituency which will be formed by the Borough of Gillingham. The situation of these towns on the river Medway is such that it is only those who have knowledge on the subject can point out the boundaries between them. Rochester has a population of 31,000; that includes Strood, which is on the west side of the Medway. Chatham has a population, according to the last Census, of 45,000, and Gillingham a population of 52,000. No doubt Rochester is a city of great antiquity, though it is rather in decay and has the smallest population of the three towns. Chatham has a larger population
not been put into the Exchange Division he would have been satisfied to acquiesce in the Report of the Boundary Commissioners with regard to Manchester in general. But, of course, it is obvious that if half St. Michael's Ward is taken from the Exchange Division great care would have to be taken not to dislocate the general scheme of the Boundary Commissioners.
I would like to know whether this promise of inquiry by my right hon. Friend will apply to all other constituencies as to which there is any difference of opinion, as there is in this case.
In view of the very fair way in which the Amendment has been received, I beg to withdraw it.
9.0 P.M.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
and Gillingham has the largest of the three. No one wishes that a name so celebrated as that of Rochester should disappear. On the other hand, no one can wish that the name of Chatham, which is a town of great antiquity and widely celebrated, should disappear. At the same time, I do contend that Gillingham, which is about to be really made into a new division with a new member, should not be given the name of the Chatham Division. In other words, it would be most invidious and unjust that the candidate or member representing Gillingham should be known as the candidate or member for Chatham, when in fact he would be the candidate or representative of the municipal borough of Gillingham, with its population of 52,000, and only about 10,000 of the inhabitants, of Chatham added. To deal with this difficulty I propose this Amendment. No explana- tion has been given to me as to why the Commissioners introduced the description "Medway Boroughs." The notice of the inquiry held locally was issued to the Parliamentary borough of Chatham. I was not present, but I have seen the proceedings, and I am informed that no objection was taken by any of the three municipal corporations to that name. To the surprise of the corporations, the Commissioners in their recommendations substituted for the Parliamentary borough of Chatham the Medway Boroughs. This is a wholly new name, which finds no acceptance by the corporations. My proposal, which I understood to be quite acceptable subject to what I will say in a moment, is that the Parliamentary boroughs should be known as the Parliamentary borough of Chatham, which is the central borough situated between Gillingham and Rochester, and that the two Parliamentary Divisions of the borough should be known one as the Rochester Division, which would preserve the ancient name of Rochester, and the other as the Gillingham Division. I submit that that is a just and proper way of meeting the difficulty.
Gillingham intensely resents that it should be known henceforth as the Chatham Division. The proposed Amendment preserves the name of Chatham under the name of the Parliamentary borough, the name of Rochester by that of the Rochester Division, and the name of Gillingham by the name of the Gillingham Division It is quite a surprise to me that Rochester should now object to this. The hon. Member for Rochester has handed in a manuscript Amendment, that instead of being called the Parliamentary borough of Chatham it should be called the Parliamentary borough of Rochester. To that I say, "Very well, I am quite willing to agree to that, if you will call the two Divisions the Chatham Division and the Gillingham Division." I am willing to meet the difficulty by any fair method which would preserve the names of the two ancient boroughs and give to Gillingham the name she desires. Rochester contributes towards the population of the division 31,000 and Chatham 31,000 odd, making a population of 60,000 odd, and the inhabitants feel strongly that this matter is being settled probably for fifty, sixty, or more years, besides which it is felt that the name of the division, as it stands in the Bill, is somewhat unjust to the great corporation of Chatham and Rochester. The Commissioners themselves were struck by this difficulty, for their original proposal was to call it the Dockyard Division; but nobody wished for that, and apparently they got out of the difficulty by calling them the Medway Boroughs, in my opinion an unfortunate name. I hope my right hon. Friend will accept the Amendment; at the same time, if Rochester desires to be called the Parliamentary borough of Rochester, with the two divisions of Chatham and Gillingham, I should not oppose an Amendment to that effect
I think my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hohler) has dealt with this matter in a very conciliatory speech, and there is nothing further from my wish than to introduce any discord in a domestic matter of this kind. As to the name of the borough, there was a distinct difference of opinion on the part of those who attended that inquiry, and in Rochester it is felt that the Commissioners did a very wise thing when they did not side with either party, and called the united boroughs of Rochester, Chatham, and Gillingham the Medway Boroughs. The corporation of Rochester were not unwilling to accept the compromise, but my hon. and learned Friend put down an Amendment which opened up the whole question, and I was immediately bombarded by the corporation of Rochester to step in and secure rights of that city. With that object I have put down a manuscript Amendment, to which my hon. Friend referred, that if the words proposed in the Bill be deleted, Rochester should be substituted and not Chatham. Rochester is steeped in antiquity. An hon. Member referred to Hythe as a great name in this House. Rochester can go back a greater number of years. What we feel in Rochester about the matter is that the compromise arrived at was more or less accepted, but when this Amendment is moved to provide that the division should be known by the name of Chatham instead of the Medway Boroughs the people of Rochester feel that the claim of that city should be considered and that it should be the borough of Rochester, with the two divisions of Chatham and Gillingham.
Rochester is prepared to accept the name proposed by the Commissioners, but if any alteration in that should be made it would not be fair that Chatham should be substituted, but that the name Rochester should be substituted, Rochester being by far the older name of the two. My hon. and gallant Friend made a good point with regard to the adjoining borough of Gillingham. Rochester does not want to be unfair to Gillingham, which has a grievance, and in my manuscript Amendment I have put down the words "Chatham and Gillingham," to be known as the Chatham and Gillingham Divisions on the one hand, and the Rochester Division on the other. We feel that would cover the point, and Gillingham would not be left out in the cold. If my right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill is going to allow the name "Medway Boroughs" to depart from the Bill, we feel very strongly that we have a right to press for the inclusion of Rochester. The Rochester Corporation are very frank about the matter. They say that if the name Medway Boroughs is to stand it would naturally embrace both Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham, and they raise no objection to that; but if the Government depart at all from the scheme in the Schedule, they would like to substitute Rochester for Chatham, and I hope, if it become necessary, to be allowed an opportunity to move an Amendment to that effect.
I should like to add a word, partly because the name "Medway" is already taken as the name of a division well known to this House, the Medway Division of Kent, and as I have an Amendment which is to establish that division, I do not want that name taken away from me at this early stage of the proceedings. The designation "Medway Boroughs" is not an absolutely correct definition of this new borough. The name "Medway" includes other boroughs quite as important as Rochester and Chatham, and I do not think it is a very good definition. It is especially deficient when it leads to these difficulties about portions of the new borough receiving their rights. My hon. Friend opposite was exceedingly fair in the position he took up in wanting the division to retain the three names of Rochester, Chatham and Gillingham, and that is a suggestion which I cordially support. I think the names of the largest boroughs should be continued in the making of the new division. As an old Conservative I should rather like to see Rochester in the primary position. As it has been disfranchised as a borough, I think it should still have the right to some part of the name, and perhaps the suggestion of Rochester with Chatham and Gillingham as two divisions would be the best arrangement. I think my hon. Friend has taken a very fair view in leaving it perfectly open to the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary to take whichever view he likes. The name "Medway" already belongs to a constituency in this House, and it is really not applicable to this particular new division which is being made.
I hope we may be able amicably to settle family differences in regard to the name of this new division. I am not surprised that the men of Kent appear to dislike giving the name of Medway to a parliamentary borough. The position of the Commissioners was one of very great difficulty. They were pulled on three sides. There was a very natural desire on the part of Rochester to have its great historic name identified with these boroughs, and there was a not unnatural desire on the part of Chatham, and also of Gillingham, which perhaps has not a very long modern history, that it should not be left out in the cold and entirely ignored. I cannot help thinking that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Chatham may be exceedingly hopeful on this occasion about a solution of the difficulty. I never heard a more amiable speech delivered by anybody than that which he delivered. Although he expressed a preference, very naturally, for Chatham, with which he is so honourably associated, yet he recognised the very ancient history of Rochester and the traditions in which it is steeped, as the hon. Member for Rochester said, and he pointed out that sooner than have the name of "The Medway Boroughs," that chosen by the Boundary Commissioners, he would accept the name of Rochester as the name of the constituency and would be content if the two divisions were called Chatham and Gillingham. If that proposition is acceptable—and I think it is to the hon. Member for Rochester—then I think the two hon. Members might come together and relieve the House from an animated Debate and arrive at a solution of the difficulty, which is one which, I think, on the whole will appeal to the majority of the electors in Rochester, Chatham, and Gillingham. If that suggestion is adopted the present Amendment would have to be withdrawn and subsequent Amendments moved.
I would ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, and there will then have to be proposed to substitute for the Parliamentary borough of Chatham the Parliamentary borough of Rochester, and for the Rochester Division to read Chatham, and for Chatham to read Gillingham.
I explained to my hon. and learned Friend that I had no objection personally to this re-arrangement, but I was unable to get into contact with the Rochester Corporation. I wish, therefore, to enter the reservation that if they take exception to this proposal I shall raise it on Report. I felt it was quite a fair solution if the right hon. Gentleman would accept it.
Morley … … Municipal Boroughs of Batley, Morley and Ossett One — —
I beg to move, in column 1, before the word "Morley," to insert the words "Batley and."
There is a very strong feeling in Batley in connection with the proposal. The inhabitants of Batley, knowing that it is considerably larger than Morley, think they are entitled to have the name in the Schedule. I do not think there is the least objection on the part of the inhabitants of Morley to the Amendment I am moving. Not only is Batley larger in population, but I understand that it is developing a great deal faster than Morley, and has a considerably higher rateable value. Under the circumstances, I suggest that this recognition ought to be given to Batley.
I had given notice of an Amendment subsequently to leave out the word "Morley" and to insert "Batley." I think it would have been easy to convince the Committee that Batley is the proper name. The Boundary Commissioners first gave the name as Batley. I want to correct the impression that this is more or less the renewal of an old controversy and that this is the old division, and that the Batley people are trying to take away the name of the Morley Division. That is not correct. This is not a new county division; it is a new Parliamentary borough. The statement issued to Members by Morley says that it is an old controversy renewed about a new division. How could there be an old contro-
It is quite open to either hon. Member to raise the matter again on Report, but I cannot help thinking that under the circumstances the parties concerned will consider it satisfactory.
Amendment, by leave. withdrawn.
I beg to move, in column 1, to leave out the words "The Medway Boroughs," and to insert instead thereof the word "Rochester."
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In column 4, leave out the word "Chatham," and insert "Gillingham."
Leave out the word "Rochester," and insert "Chatham."—[ Mr. Hohler. ]
versy renewed about a new division or, rather, a new Parliamentary borough? It is impossible. My first point is—and I want to make it quite clearly—that it is not the old constituency of Morley, but a new constituency. Let the Committee realise that under the Bill the county division of Morley exists no longer. I have some maps here ( exhibiting them ) that show that this Parliamentary borough takes a very small part indeed of the old Morley Division. The boroughs of Morley and Ossett are left, both much smaller than Batley. In fact, the old county division is divided as is the division for which I sit in this House, and for which I can sit no longer after this Parliament is dissolved. The Morley Division is cut into four sections and distributed over four different Parliamentary constituencies. The municipal borough of Batley for many years formed a very large part of the Parliamentary borough of Dewsbury. For the past fifty years the Parliamentary borough of Dewsbury has been represented by Sir John Simon, Sir Mark Oldroyd, and the present right hon. Gentleman who represents that borough. Batley borough for, I fancy, the greater part of the last fifty years had more Parliamentary voters and a larger population than either Morley or Dewsbury, though we have not had any share in the name. Let the Committee know that it is not the Parliamentary borough of Batley that is added to the County Division of Morley, but it is the remnant of the Morley Division that is added to Batley which has been part of a Parliamentary borough for so many years. The present Morley Division, along with other county divisions, was carved out of the West Riding of Yorkshire thirty years ago. There was, as we have been reminded, a stiff fight over the name. In that contest Morley obtained the name on the ground that nearly all Batley was in the Parliamentary borough of Dewsbury, and that Morley had the greatest number of electors and population of any of the townships in the new division. Quite true, but now the tables are turned. Nearly all those townships have gone, and the county division of Morley is no more. She claims to carry with her into the new Parliamentary borough the name of Morley, simply because she has had the name for so many years, though it is an entirely different constituency. Let Morley play the game! Morley and Batley have had many a tussle at cricket and football in days gone by. That fact, I think, is pretty well known. If Batley, with, part of the time, a larger population and electorate than Dewsbury, for fifty years has been content to play second fiddle to Dewsbury, I think Morley, with a much less population and less rateable value, might be content to let Batley have the name. Morley's only claim, and a claim with which I have a great deal of sympathy myself, I do not want to be hard on Morley at all, I have nothing to say against her—but Morley's only claim, as I have shown, is that she has had the good fortune for thirty years to give the name to a constituency.
Of what does the new constituency consist? It consists of three municipal boroughs: Batley, with a population of 36,793; Morley, with a population of 24,444; and Ossett, with a population of 14,373—a total of 75,610. Hon. Members will perceive that Batley alone has almost half the total population of the new borough—almost the same as the other two boroughs together. May I ask the Committee to note that the commercial importance of Batley is in proportion far greater still? Take the rateable value of these two towns. Batley's rateable value is £169,700, Morley's is £101,100, showing an excess of the first over the second of £68,000. Still more, Batley has 74 per cent. more electors than Morley. This confirms a well-known fact, that while Batley is a very much larger town than Morley, its trade is of still more importance. Morley is said to be a very ancient town. Both Morley and Batley were, as ancient villages, in Domesday Book (1086). The only difference between them, then, was that Batley had a church and a priest, Morley a church and no priest. Long ago, Batley had the parish church and Morley had a chapel-of-ease. But Morley lost that and was without for hundreds of years. The "ancient town" of Morley is in the parish of Batley! It had no parish church except that of Batley, and this "ancient" town was only incorporated in 1885. By its own writers, and others, it was described within the memory of man as "a village." As a matter of fact, all these West Riding towns have grown from villages into towns with the growth of the woollen industry in the last fifty years. I am not going to say that Batley is an ancient town, but it is a much older borough than Morley. In token of the fact that Morley was a village in the parish of Batley, to this day the vicar of Batley has the gift of the living of Morley. Just one or two words more and I have finished. Of the three boroughs now grouped together, Batley, Morley, and Ossett, Batley is not only by far the greatest in population and rateable value and commercial importance, but you have to go through Batley to get from Morley to Ossett, or from Ossett to get to Morley. One reason more, and that is for the sake of clearness. In another place there are already two Lord Morleys, and there may be another. I do not know why there should not be any number of peers, but in this democratic House, surely we here should represent the population and the electorate. Morley ought to be content, I put it to the House, with being already doubly in the peerage. From the House of Commons point of view I am sure I am only asking for simple justice in asking that Batley should have the name. I have an Amendment on the Paper which, however, I will not move, because if the one I am supporting is carried, as I hope it will be, there will be no need for me to move mine. If I were to move my Amendment to substitute Batley for Morley I believe it would be carried by a large majority, but, personally, I much prefer to support the Amendment of my hon. Friend. I know the House likes to see fairness in these matters. It likes to see a spirit of honesty and fair compromise between one another. We as Members of Parliament are always ready to try to please everybody. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] That is so. We Members do it in our own constituencies. Hon. Members know very well that what I say is true, and I am going to support my hon. Friend's Amendment, although I say we have a good case for Batley alone. Quite frankly, I would rather have "Batley and Morley," and therefore I am going to support the Amendment, and I trust the decision will be unanimous. The Amendment, if carried, I hope will satisfy the aspirations of those concerned.
This, according to the hon. Member, is not a revival of an old controversy, but a controversy, whether it be old or new, is often tiresome. We, however, are wishful to meet the views of hon. Members and will accept the Amendment, so that in future the constituency shall be known, and I trust it will rest content with it, as "Batley and Morley."
Nelson … Municipal Boroughs of Colne and Nelson, Urban Districts of Barrowford Brierfield and Trawden, and the detached part of the civil parish of Foulridge, which is bounded on the north, west, and south by the Municipal Borough of Colne. One — —
I beg to move, in column 1, after the word "Nelson," to insert the words "and Colne."
I hope the Government will accept this Amendment as they did the last one. I am not claiming that Colne is larger than Nelson, but Colne is an old Roman town, and, I am sure, a town with a history such as it has ought to be recognised when naming a constituency. I am told that the inhabitants of Nelson have no objection whatever to Colne being coupled with them as the name of the constituency. The hon. and gallant Member (Captain Albert Smith), whose name is
Oldham … County Borough of Oldham Two — —
I beg to move, in columns 4 and 5, to insert the words:
East … … Waterhead, St. James', St. Mary's, Mumps, Coldhurst, and Clarksfield wards. West … … Westwood, Hartford, Werneth, Hollinwood, St. Peter's, and St. Paul's wards.
The object of the Amendment is to divide the proposed new Parliamentary borough of Oldham into two divisions. There are two main reasons for this. First, I am going to submit, the Boundary
I realise the desirability of getting things through expeditiously, if possible, and the importance of conciliation and compromise. I also realise the position that the Member of the Government in charge of this Bill has taken up in this matter. When he accepts a compromise of the sort I feel the obligation of paying deference to the intimation from the right hon. Gentleman. It is not my object in any way to oppose the Amendment. At the same time, I should say that after the fullest inquiry by the Boundary Commissioners, after all parties were before them, and, bearing in mind that two out of the three boroughs form the future borough, and the majority of the population, and are united in asking for the retention of the name; also that it has existed as a county division of Parliament for now nearly forty years, that it must simply be a matter of meeting the wishes of the House.
Amendment agreed to.
down with mine to move this Amendment, represents Clitheroe, of which Parliamentary division Nelson and Colne are part The present hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe lives in Nelson, and strongly supports this Amendment, and I have not a word of opposition from the inhabitants of Nelson.
If the Committee has no objection to double-barrelled names I think again this will probably be a happy solution of a little local difference. I, therefore, accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Commissioners were bound by their rules so to divide it, and they have not done so; and, secondly, two-member constituencies are the survival of bad times, and are objectionable for many reasons.
I will only cite two. In this new Parliamentary borough of Oldham there will be a population of about 150,000, so that each voter will be one of 50,000 voters, as I understand probably in this district the voters will be one in three of the population. Moreover, the candidate is exposed to very great disadvantages. If one Conservative candidate stood alone against two, say, Liberal candidates, although he might secure more than half the total number of voters, he might yet be defeated, because the second vote would be given to one of the others, which is almost certain in a district like Oldham, where the voters never throw away a vote. It is quite clear why it is only in exceptional cases that there are to be two-member constituencies, and I think the rule should be strictly construed, so that it would be only in exceptional cases. I contend that this comes within Rule 11, and is not an exception to Rule 11, and I say we should have acted according to the rule.
It is necessary to tell the Committee that the present Parliamentary borough consists of the municipal borough of 150,000 people and four district councils representing another 67,000. Some day or other, very soon, all those urban districts must be made into one municipal borough, because they have one trade—cottonspinning, cloth-weaving, and cotton machinery manufacture. The population being 217,000 odd at the present time, they are entitled to three members, and at the inquiry, which was held before the Sub-Commissioner, it was petitioned that the whole area might be kept as it is now, namely, one Parliamentary borough, divided into three divisions. The mayor and corporation were represented, as well as all the trades in the town and the political parties, and they all agreed that the Parliamentary borough as it now exists had a complete civic life of its own, and was a one-family constituency, so to speak. Being large enough for three members, it would have to be divided into three divisions, and they asked for that. Rule would not apply to a three-member constituency, but only to a two-member constituency. Therefore, if it had been granted, what the Oldham people wanted was that the present borough should be continued, and that it should be divided into three divisions. The Commissioners, instead of doing that, carved it up. They took all the four urban councils and put
"All boroughs returning two or more members shall be divided into single-member constituencies except that any borough at present undivided returning two members shall be entitled to continue to return two members and remain undivided."
Rule 4 provides that the terms "municipal" and "Parliamentary borough" are used in a different sense in this Rule, and Rules 9 and 10 show that the word "borough" in Rule 11 means Parliamentary borough and not municipal borough. This municipal borough of Oldham is now to be made a Parliamentary borough, and it could not come within the Rule because it could not be entitled to return two members, as it never has returned two members. It is a new entity, and not an old Parliamentary borough. I hope my right hon. Friend is following my argument. I know he has a judicial mind, and I appeal to him to say whether or not, according to the proper construction of those Rules, what I have stated is right. I will give the right hon. Gentleman one test. Supposing the matter had been the other way about. Supposing the Commissioners had ordered this new Parliamentary borough to be divided into two constituencies, and I had objected, and put down a Motion that it should be undivided, they would have said it was not an old Parliamentary borough returning two members and undivided which was to continue to be entitled to return two members. It is quite clear that this new Parliamentary borough is a new entity and a new creation. At the next general election the old Parliamentary borough of Oldham, with 217,000 inhabitants, will cease to exist, and the new borough, consisting only of the municipal borough, will take its place. The old Parliamentary borough will not be entitled to return two members. I ask
I am sorry to oppose my junior colleague, because I am a great admirer of both his fluency and his lucidity. I have tried to follow his argument. In the first place, he came to the conclusion that the Commissioners had acted contrary to their Instructions. His second point appeared to be that in any event two-member constituencies were a misfortune and ought not to exist. I am not a lawyer, thank God! [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] I think that is a very unfair response to quite a harmless remark. When I saw this Amendment on the Paper I turned up the Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners, and curiously enough I based my case in opposition to my hon. Friend's Amendment on the particular Rule on which he has rested his case. I suppose that must be the difference between a business man and a lawyer, and he seems to see something in the Rule which I cannot see, because what the Commissioners have done in this matter of Oldham is precisely what they were instructed to do.
The conditions laid down in Rule 11 are exactly the conditions of the Parliamentary borough of Oldham. At present it is a two-member constituency, and constitutes the Parliamentary borough of Oldham. The numbers being too large, the Commissioners have cut off five district councils which join Oldham in forming this Parliamentary borough, and these councils are now divided over various neighbouring county constituencies, but the Parliamentary borough of Oldham remains where it was, and on this plain instruction the Commissioners have no other alternative. The hon. Member said there was an objection to two-member constituencies, but the Commissioners were instructed to have regard to two-member constituencies, and if ever there was a case where that is justifiable it is in regard to this particular Parliamentary borough, where there is a general community of commercial and social interest. There is nothing divided in the constituency at all. Its boundary has been the Parliamentary borough of Oldham, and I can see no reason why the Home Secretary should consider this Amendment. I confess that I see a danger because the Front Bench is getting into a dangerously accepting mood. I hope that they will pull themselves together and realise that this is something quite contrary to the well-considered decision of the Commissioners, and although I am sorry to say it, I hope my hon. colleague will be defeated.
After the observations just made by the hon. Member that the Front Bench have accepted Amendments too readily, I would like to point out they are Amendments which concern the locality only and the name of the locality and which do not affect the House as a whole. They have done no harm. With regard to this particular Amendment the object of it is that Oldham, which under the scheme is a two-member borough, shall be divided into two separate divisions. The Commissioners have treated the constituency as a two-member borough. It is a municipal borough, and is still to return two members. My hon. Friend's point is that it should be divided. Unfortunately this point was not raised at the inquiry at Oldham. It is raised for the first time here and therefore we do not know what are the views of Oldham itself. But apart from that I think the Commissioners were bound by Rule 11, which says that any borough at present undivided and returning two members and which will under Rules 5 and 8 continue to return two members, shall remain undivided. That rule is fatal to the argument, unless my hon. Friend says that the borough of Oldham is no longer the borough of Oldham. Really it is a question of identity. It is quite true that the Parliamentary borough of Oldham is altered, but the borough remains the borough of Oldham, and I do not think the Commissioners could have changed the prevent undivided representation under their Instructions. I am a lawyer, thank God, and I understand the meaning of plain words. I did not follow my hon. and learned Friend in the argument he put forward, and I do suggest that if we accepted that argument it would affect a whole number of other boroughs. There are ten of them altogether and with regard to each of them a similar argument might apply. I am very unwilling to open such a discussion, and under the circumstances I hope my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Plymouth … County Borough of Plymouth Three Central … Drake's, Mount Edgcumbe, Mutley, Pennycross, St. Peter's, Stoke and Valletort Wards. Devonport … Ford, Keyham, Molesworth, Nelson, St. Aubyn and St. Budeaux Wards. East … Charles, Compton, Friary, Laira, St. Andrew's, Button and Vintry Wards.
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "Central" and to insert the word "Drake."
This Amendment has been handed in by my colleague (Mr. Astor) and myself, and I move it on behalf of Plymouth. There are a great many of us in Plymouth who much regret that the ancient borough is not to be allowed to continue its undivided representation, but we bow to the inevitable. On behalf of the people of Plymouth I now ask that the names of two of the divisions shall be changed, that the Central Division shall be called the "Drake Division" and the East Division the "Sutton Division." The two names I propose are of great historical interest to the people of Plymouth; the one is that of
Stoke-on-Trent County Borough of Stoke-on-Trent Three Burslem … Numbers one, two three, four, five, six, seven and eight Wards. Hanley … Numbers nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen and sixteen Wards. Stoke … Numbers seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-three, twenty-four, twenty-five and twenty-six Wards.
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "Three" and to insert the word "Four."
Stoke-on-Trent at present returns two and a half members. I am the half. Under the new scheme it is to return three Members, and I wish to show that it is entitled to return four. Stoke-on-Trent is a municipal borough, and as such it is only 20,000 short of the quota needed for a four-member constituency. But adjoining it are two urban districts—Kidsgrove and Smallthorne—which are continuous parts of the town. They are residential quarters and also an extension of the mining districts which compose the northern part of Stoke-on-Trent. I appeal to hon. Members in this House who are supporting the Report of the Commission, so far as Wolverhampton is concerned, to give us the same fair treatment in Stoke-on-Trent. The municipal borough of Wolverhampton has about 100,000 inhabitants. The Parliamentary
a good seaman always associated with Plymouth history. Sutton is the name of a portion of Plymouth which appeared in history before Plymouth came into existence. I hope my right hon. Friend may see his way to agree to the Amendment.
There is no opposition to this Amendment. We all revere the name of Drake, and I am very glad indeed to accept the proposal.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "East" and to insert the word "Sutton."
I accept.
Amendment agreed to.
10.0 P.M.
borough of Wolverhampton is to have three members, because tacked on to the municipal borough there are surrounding urban districts which preserve to Wolverhampton three members of Parliament. We ask that Stoke-on-Trent should be treated in exactly the same way. The scheme which they put before the Commissioners, but which unfortunately they did not get an opportunity of lodging with the Commissioners, was that these two urban districts should be added to the borough for Parliamentary purposes, thereby bringing the total population up to 260,000, and entitling it to four members instead of three. What do we see in the case of Stoke-on-Trent? Thirty-five thousand inhabitants are practically disfranchised because they are superfluous to the total required to give three members, and these areas are, in the words of the Instructions to the Commissioners, similar in character and occupation. They would form a solid industrial constituency. It is particularly important that Stoke-on-Trent should have this additional representation in Parliament. It is a town which has the highest assessment for rates in England. At the present time the rates are over 12s. in the £, and that is because the people living in the town are of the poorer class. The rich live outside in the surrounding districts, so that their houses escape the very high rating system and serve in no way to facilitate the finances of the borough. That is a common case, but it is more particularly disastrous to the borough of Stoke-on Trent, because rates are very high. I would ask the Committee to consider what has happened to these two urban districts that are part and parcel of Stoke. They have been attached to a division taking its name from the borough of Leek, some twenty miles away on the moor. They have no connection with Leek; they hardly know what it is. All their occupations are in Stoke, and yet they are taken away and attached to Leek. That is contrary to the Instructions to the Commissioners. They were told to segregate areas, and to keep rural areas separate from urban. Instead of that they have tacked these urban boroughs on to the rural. That seems to me to be an additional argument for allowing Stoke-on-Trent to have its way, and to allow us to have our fair representation of North Staffordshire, just as Wolverhampton and the people of South Staffordshire receive theirs.
I recognise that it is difficult for the Government to make any change in this Schedule in this matter, but under every redistribution Stoke-on-Trent has been unfairly treated by the Commissioners. In 1885 it was the same. The whole of the populace was cut up, and under-represented. In 1832 it was under-represented, and in 1867 again it was under-represented. Here you have an industrial district which is a specialised district for one particular trade under-represented in this House so that we are not able to make our voices heard. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] We are not able to make our voices heard sufficiently. There is one last reason why I beg hon. Members to support me, and it is that we are suffering under the crushing monopoly of a railway company which keeps the district in fetters. The North Staffordshire Railway Company strangles North Staffordshire. Everyone who has studied the freight rates on the North Staffordshire Railway knows that it is one of the greatest drawbacks to that district. We are coming to an age when the question of railway nationalisation will come to the front, and the question of whether we can crush out the North Staffordshire railway is becoming of enormous importance to the people of North Staffs. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] It is very much in order, because unless we are fully represented in this House by our full strength—and I ask for no more —we are likely to suffer materially when the question of the nationalisation of railways and canals comes along. It is very important that industrial areas which have been penalised in the past by rings and monopolies should at any rate be able to stiffen the hands of those who wish to set us free from those monopolies and rings, and to enable us to have the cheapest possible transit for our goods and raw material. For these reasons I beg to move this Amendment, and I hope the Home Secretary will be in a granting mood and give this legitimate aspiration to the borough of Stoke-on-Trent.
I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend (Commander Wedgwood) will expect his Amendment to be very seriously considered. It is a manuscript Amendment, if, indeed, it is that.
I only had instructions from the corporation to-day. [Laughter.] I do not mean instructions.
I did not think the hon. and gallant Member took his orders from anyone. I have had no notice, written or oral, of this Amendment, but I have done my best to understand it from the speech we have heard. Stoke has a population of 239,000, and that entitles it to three members, but not to four. I understand that my hon. and gallant Friend desires, in order to obtain four members, to take certain urban districts from another constituency and to add those to the total. I do not at all know what these districts think, but I do know that the county council are entirely opposed to this proposal. They are altogether against it. It was not recommended by the Assistant Commissioner, it has not found its way into the Report of the Commissioners, and I do not think the Committee can be asked at this eleventh hour to make such an important change.
May I point out that the Corporation of Stoke were told that they had no locus standi to appear before the Commissioners except to a limited extent, and I think that,
Wolverhampton County Borough of Wolverhampton, and Urban Districts of Bilston, Coseley, Heath Town or Wednesfield Heath, Sedgley, Short Heath, Wednesfield and Willenhall Three Bilston … Urban Districts of Bilston, Coseley and Sedgley. East … St. James's St. Mary's and St. Peter's Wards of the County Borough of Wolverhampton, and Urban Districts of Heath Town or Wednesfield Heath, Short Heath, Wednesfield and Willenhall. West … Blakenhall, Dunstall, Graiseley, Merridale, Park, St. George's St. John's, St. Mark's and St. Matthew's Wards of the County Borough of Wolverhampton.
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "Three," and to insert instead thereof the word "Two."
The objects of the Amendments down in my name are to take what is known now as the Bilston Division of Wolverhampton from the borough of Wolverhampton and to place it as a division in the county of Stafford. The population of the municipal borough of Wolverhampton is 95,000, and, according to the Instructions of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to the Boundary Commissioners, paragraph 5, we find it laid down that
May I interrupt my hon. and gallant Friend? He said that the whole borough of Wolverhampton only numbered 95,000.
The municipal borough.
The Parliamentary borough has over 200,000—
The Parliamentary borough is quite a different thing,
as Wolverhampton has been favourably treated, Stoke should be treated in the same way.
Amendment negatived.
and includes a number of urban districts outside, whereas the municipal borough has only 95,000. What we do object to is that three parishes which are outside the municipal borough, which have no single voter in the municipal borough, which have all their interests in the county of Stafford, which have no community of interest with the borough of Wolverhampton, should be added to the borough of Wolverhampton to form their third member against the unanimous opinion of all the inhabitants of that place, represented in the first case by the urban district councils, who presented a petition signed by their chairman setting forth their case exactly to the Boundary Commissioners, represented by the Labour of the constituency, who also presented objections through fifteen different unions, practically representative of the labour among the inhabitants, and also represented by the manufacturers in that district, who are unanimous in wanting to sever these particulars parishes from the Borough of Wolverhampton. These three parishes which we wish to sever from it have nothing in common with the borough of Wolverhampton. Wolverhampton finds them no service, neither gas, electric light water, trams, nor any service whatsoever. Police, roads, public health, naval and military pensions, registration—they are entirely in the county of Stafford. The three parishes together form a petty sessional area of the county of Stafford, Therefore, I think I have pretty well shown that this particular area has nothing whatever to do with the borough of Wolverhampton, except that for thirty years it has formed one of the divisions of the borough. The Committee may ask why it has formed part of the borough of Wolverhampton. When the new divisions were made in 1885, at the time of the last Reform Bill, the Bight hon. Charles Pelham Villiers, who had been Member for Wolverhampton, wished to represent this particular part of the constituency, and out of deference to such a distinguished statesman the people raised no objection, but they have been waiting ever since for an opportunity to assert their own rights and become a separate entity outside the borough.
As far as I can see, there are very few arguments that the other side can raise. They may say that what exists at the present time should remain, but I would counter that by saying that two wrongs do not make a right; and if it was wrong originally to give the Borough of Wolverhampton more members than it was entitled to according to population, this Bill has been brought in to set aside such anomalies and put things right. There is no reason why a wrong which has been committed during the last thirty years should continue against the wishes of all the inhabitants of the place. They may also say that it is a great benefit for an industrial population to have three members to represent an industry in this House. I would counter that at once by saying that we have canvassed all the manufacturers and employers in the constituency, and they are unanimous in wishing to be severed from the borough of Wolverhampton. Their interests are not the same. We have what might be called turners out of raw material, whereas the municipality turn out the finished article. There is a great difference and a great divergence of interest, which can easily be understood. I have sat for this particular constituency for the last seven years. I have found on many occasions that the town clerk of Wolverhampton has pulled me one way and the county of Stafford another, but I have always found it was in the interests of my constituency to back up the county of Stafford. That proves my case that there is a divergence of interest between the two places. It would be quite wrong to continue a wrong because it has been a wrong so long, and I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman and the Committee will agree that the inhabitants of the constituency, as represented by all the urban district councils, the manufacturers, and the unanimous vote of labour, should be con- sidered before the pride of a borough which wishes to retain three members instead of having only two. I can only say to my hon. Friends with whom I have worked for the last seven years in perfect unanimity, that I should be sorry, personally, to be severed from them, but I can assure them, if the right hon. Gentleman accedes to my request, that wherever our interests are in common, I shall be delighted to work in unison with them.
I very much regret that my hon. and gallant a Friend (General Hickman) has felt it his duty to move this Amendment, for the reason that, as he has said, our relations have been so uniformly happy, and especially so during recent years. It is purely a domestic fight, but one carried on with perfect courtesy each towards the other, and, I hope, in the interests of the district and of the country. Although it is a domestic fight, I am glad to say it has no political significance, because, in opposing it as the senior member for the existing Parliamentary borough, I am supported by my hon. Friend the Conservative Member for West Wolverhampton (Mr. Bird).
Shame!
I do not think that that expression is very applicable in existing conditions, when we are all trying to work together for a common end. All the arguments that have been adduced by my hon. and gallant Friend have been submitted to the Commissioners, who have taken them into full consideration. As to-night there has been shown such an indication of compromise, I sincerely wish it had been possible to effect the compromise now, but the only compromise that was possible has already been effected, and that by the Commissioners themselves. When this very proposal was placed before the Commission, it was to do what now my hon. and gallant Friend asks the Committee to do. His division is now called the South Division of Wolverhampton. The Commissioners could not grant him his full desire. They recognised the necessity of continuing the present Parliamentary borough of Wolverhampton, but they met him as far as they could by altering the name from the South Division of Wolverhampton to that of the Bilston Division of Wolverhampton. To that extent they desired, so far as the name would do it, to meet the wishes of those whom he represents, but they still abide by the old Parliamentary borough of Wolverhampton. My hon. and gallant Friend in his remarks quite unwittingly gave the impression that this Parliamentary Borough of Wolverhampton was formed in 1885. That is not the case. This Parliamentary borough was formed by the Reform Bill of 1832, and it has been one Parliamentary borough from that time till now. Until 1885 it had two members. When, in 1885, three members were granted, it was not a divided Parliamentary borough, and it was at that stage that the Right Hon. C. P. Villiers, whose name is so well known to hon. Members, having been a member for the undivided constituency of Wolverhampton, selected the divided constituency of Wolverhampton South. To what has been done by the Commissioners now does not alter anything that existed in the past. It does not, as the hon. Member for North Staffordshire almost suggested, add on anything at this stage, but remains as it was and has been since 1832, when it was formed a Parliamentary borough with this area. I ask that what the Reform Bill of 1832 joined together let not the Reform Bill of 1917 put asunder. It has been a very happy relationship. We have no desire whatever for a divorce and I stand with my hon. Friend strongly for keeping us together in the interests of the locality and of the country. My hon. Friend seemed to take a wrong view as to the question of unity of interest. There is a very keen and close community of interest in all the parts of the Parliamentary borough of Wolverhampton which comprises the Division he represents. It is a great industrial area. It forms naturally part of the borough area. Wolverhampton South, as it now is, is not a county district. It has no community of interest with the county. Its natural connection is with us in Wolverhampton. It is absolutely contiguous to it. It has, to all intents and purposes, the same industrial associations, and it is much more natural to continue the old association since the Reform Bill of 1832 than to make this new association with the county, and I submit that it is better for my hon. Friend and his constituency to have a third of the great industrial area of Wolverhampton than to have merely an eighth of the county with which it has no direct association. In the whole tendency of local government development this is an unfortunate step. It seems to me that, man and man, we need federation locally. This would be in the wrong direction, I believe, where interests are concerned in uniting together. All the industrial areas in South Staffordshire are in boroughs, and it would be contrary to the whole history and associations of the industrial area of South Staffordshire for this industrial unit to be removed from the borough and placed in the county. I sincerely hope, as the Commission has fairly considered the whole question and had all the representations before it which have been put by my hon. and gallant Friend, as they have striven to meet them as far as they possibly could and done it by the name of the Bilston Division of Wolverhampton, the Report of the Commissioners may be maintained, and I trust my right hon. Friend will not accept the Amendment.
I would not have intervened in this Debate at all were it not for the fact that the ownership voters of this district of Wolverhampton are voters in the Division of Staffordshire which I represent. From personal knowledge of the constituency and from recent inquiries I have discovered what apparently my hon. and gallant Friend has also found out, that none of these people are desirous of forming part of the Parliamentary borough of Wolverhampton. The hon. Member (Mr. Thorne) said there was contiguity with the municipal borough of Wolverhampton. I know several places as contiguous and they have no desire to form a portion of the borough. Very much the reverse, in common with myself. South Wolverhampton in various ways is connected with the county. The Petty Sessions work is done by the county. The county could put forward this proposal to put the recalled Bilston Division into the county, and the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton and his friends did not raise any counter proposal so far as I know when the proposal was put before the Commissioners. This proposal is desired by the people of the district, it will make no difference to the Bill, and will only give the county of Stafford one more member. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Commander Wedgwood) asks for one or two. If the Bilston Division can be made part of the county you will satisfy the inhabitants of that division and no harm will be done to the municipal borough of Wolverhampton, which is really only entitled to one member, although it is getting two; therefore, Wolverhampton cannot be damnified. Best of all, the people living in the district affected will receive what they desire.
I am extremely sorry to have to differ from my hon. and gallant Friend (General Hickman) and my old Friend (Colonel Staveley-Hill), but I am not sure that they have given any evidence of an overwhelming desire for the division of South Wolverhampton to be taken out of the borough and established as a separate county constituency. There is no doubt from my own experience and observation a very large amount of opinion in the South Division in favour of maintaining the old connection, and there is no doubt that that feeling existed in the mind of the late Member the right hon. Charles Pelham Villiers, who, when the borough was broken up into three divisions, elected to sit, as he naturally would, for the South Division in order to maintain his connection with it. I would point out the great difference which the proposed alteration would make in the status and position in the South Division. As the people are now situated in that division, they have all the resources of the Wolverhampton Borough placed at their disposal when any measures are brought forward in Parliament which affect their interests very seriously. I am sure that is a very important element to be taken into consideration, and if this Amendment were carried they would be deprived of that very great advantage. A great deal has been said about the peculiarly county character of the South Division, but that county character and the way it has been put to us does not exist. It is a purely industrial community, and its interests are identical in all respects with those of the Borough of Wolverhampton We are told that contiguity is no element for our consideration. On the contrary, it is a matter for our consideration, because the South Division enjoys all the advantages of the various educational institutions and others of a social character in Wolverhampton which have been provided at very great expense. Moreover, the people of the South Division are connected very closely by tram with Wolverhampton, so that there is every facility for making use of the advantages, and they have not got those advantages in the particular district from which the new division takes its name to the extent that they enjoy them in Wolverhampton. If the South Division is taken away from the borough it would be a very serious loss to the division. The hon. Member for the South Division harped on the fact that Wolverhampton was a borough with only 95,000 inhabitants. But he forgets that the Parliamentary borough has a population of 242,000, so that there is no anomaly in having three members. I hope that the Committee will hesitate before putting on one side the deliberate, well-considered views of the Commissioners who had all the facts before them and made the final decision that the South Division should remain in the borough of Wolverhampton, though they made the concession that it should be known in future as Bilston.
Though I do not represent the borough of Wolverhampton I represent a considerable borough and I happen to be the only Member present who is also a member of the Staffordshire County Council. Perhaps it will be interesting to the Committee to know the real inwardness of this terrible position in Wolverhampton. On the one side you have the Town Council of Wolverhampton, and on the other side you have the Staffordshire County Council, and you have these two bodies circularising all the Members of this House on this vital point. But it is a more serious matter for the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton and the rest of the hon. Members of this Committee than perhaps they may think, and that Wolverhampton itself the constituency for which Sir Charles Pelham Villiers sat from 1835 to 1898, sixty-four years, the longest recorded represetation of any seat by any Member in the whole history of Parliament. It is not only a question of taking it away from Wolverhampton and making it a county constituency, but it also affects the whole scheme of the Boundary Commissioners, because if any change at all is made in the Parliamentary borough of Wolverhampton, then you have got to accept the Instructions of the Commissioners, which limited the constituency of Wolverhampton to the municipal borough, with its 95,000 inhabitants. Now a municipal borough of 95,000 inhabitants is only entitled to one member, and if you give such a borough two members, as was suggested by the hon. Member for South Wolverhampton, then will not every other borough which has between 95,000 and 120,000 inhabitants also rightly claim to have two Members of Parliament? The case for York will be enormously stronger. But there is a large number of boroughs which, if you treat Wolverhampton in this advantageous way, will demand equal treatment and two Members of Parliament, because not only will you segregate the municipal borough of Wolverhampton but there are also some 40,000 inhabitants outside the present municipal borough, and inside the Parliamentary borough, all of whom will be thrown into the county if this Amendment is carried, and if the Boundary Commissioners carry out their Instructions. In that case you will have to recast the whole of the boundary divisions throughout the county of Stafford, and I ask the Home Secretary not to throw this into the melting pot at present but to get on with the Bill. Surely we can leave town clerks and clerks of the county court to fight out this matter without troubling for any longer time the House of Commons.
I confess that I was very much impressed by what was stated by my hon. and gallant Friend (General Hickman). We want, as far as we can, to consider the wishes of the population of the district, and if he had found any measure of support. I should have felt very much disposed to take those
Division No. 103.] AYES. [10.45 P.m. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke Clough, William Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Haslam, Lewis Agnew, Sir George William Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Helme, Sir Norval Watson Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Henry, Sir Charles Archdale, Lieut. Edward M. Calvin, Col. Richard Beale Hewart, Sir Gordon Baird, John Lawrence Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hewins, William Albert Samuel Baldwin, Stanley Courthope, Major George Loyd Higham, John Sharp Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Hills, Major John Waller Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N. Craik, Sir Henry Hinds, John Barnston, Capt. Harry Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Hope, Harry (Bute) Beach, William F. H. Denison-Pender, Capt. J. C. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Beale, Sir William Phipson Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Hope, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian) Beck, Arthur Cecil Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Bellairs, Commander C. W. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Duncan Sir J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Bird, Alfred Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Bliss, Joseph Falconer, James Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W. Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Jowett, Frederick William Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.) Fletcher, John Samuel Kerry, Lieut.-Col. Earl of Brace, Rt. Hon. William Galbraith, Samuel King, Joseph Bridgeman, William Clive Ganzoni, Francis John C. Knight, Captain E. A. Brunner, John F. L. Gelder, Sir W. A. Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry Bryce, J. Annan Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Larmor, Sir J. Bull, Sir William James Gilbert, J. D. Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Beetle) Carew, C. R. S. Greenwood. Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Greig, Colonel J. W. Levy, Sir Maurice Cator, John Gulland, Right Hon. John William Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Lowther, Major-Gen. H. C. (Appleby)
views seriously into consideration. The Amendment, however, is opposed by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton East, and also by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton West. That being so, I feel some difficulty in asking the Committee to accept the Amendment. The Commissioners considered the position, and at the inquiry heard the views of Bilston, and they came to the conclusion not to upset the connection between Wolverhampton and Bilston. One only of the parties desires to have a divorce or a judicial separation—no kind of misconduct being alleged—but the balance of opinion is against it. There must be some reason for this connection. It is a very old one. It has existed for some eighty years. I am not learned in local history, but I believe that Bilston was connected with Wolverhampton by some ecclesiastic attachment. Of course, there is a history behind all these things, and people do not like to part with old connections without some very good reason. On the whole, I think the Committee should not accede to the argument in support of the Amendment, but the hon. Member may raise it again if necessary.
Question put, "That the word 'three' stand part of the Schedule."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 176; Noes, 29.
MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Peto, Basil Edward Touche, Sir George Alexander M'Curdy, Charles Albert Philipps, Sir Owen (Chester) Toulmin, Sir George Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Tryon, Captain George Clement Mackinder, Halford J. Pratt, J. W. Turton, Edmund Russborough Macmaster, Donald Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George Watt, Henry A. McMicking, Major Gilbert Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Webb, Lieut.-Col. Sir H. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund Wedgwood, Lieut.-Commander Josiah C. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Weston, J. W. Maden, Sir John Henry Randies, Sir John S. White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Maitland, Sir A. D. Steel- Raphael, Sir Herbert H. Whiteley, Herbert J. Mason, David M. (Coventry) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.) Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Millar, James Duncan Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Mitchell-Thomson, W. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Morgan, George Hay Robinson, Sidney Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Morton Alpheus Cleophas Rothschild, Major Lionel de Wills, Major Sir Gilbert Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Rowlands, James Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Needham, Christopher T. Samuels, Arthur W. (Dublin, U.) Wilson, Col. Leslie C. (Reading) Neville, Reginald J. N. Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Wilson-Fox, Henry (Tamworth) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Liverpool) Winfrey, Sir Richard Parker, Rt. Hon. Sir G. (Gravesend) Smith, Harold (Warrington) Wolmer, Viscount Parker, James (Halifax) Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Wood, John (Stalybridge) Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Spear, Sir John Ward Worthington Evans, Major Sir L. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike(Darlington) Sykes, Col. Sir Mark (Hull, Central) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Peel, Lieut.-Col. R. F. (Suffolk, S.E.) Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.) Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding) Thomas-Stanford, Charles TELLERS FOR THE AYES .— Lord E. Talbot and Capt. F. Guest..— Lord E. Talbot and Capt. F. Guest. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Perkins, Walter F. Tickler, T. G.
NOES. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G. Gretton, John Stanier, Captain Sir Beville Boyton, James Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Stewart, Gershom Broughton, Urban Hanlon Haddock, George Bahr Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Burdett-Coutts, W. Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Terrell George (Wilts, N.W.) Burn, Colonel C. R. Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J. Wheler, Major Granville C. H. Butcher, John George Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) Cautley, H. S. Ingleby, Holcombe Yate, Colonel Charles Edward Currie, George W. Meysey-Thompson, Col. E. C. Dixon, C. H. Mount, William Arthur TELLERS FOR THE NOES. — General Hickman and Colonel Staveley-Hill.— General Hickman and Colonel Staveley-Hill. Fell, Arthur Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen) Foster, Philip Staveley Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Wednesday next.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon, Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House, of 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now Adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Five minutes before Eleven o'clock.