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Commons Chamber

Volume 98: debated on Tuesday 6 November 1917

House of Commons

Tuesday, November 6, 1917

Mersey Books and Harbour Board

Copy of Accounts of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board for the year ending 1st July. 1917 [by Act].

Oral Answers to Questions

War

France and Great Britain

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the terms of the Franco-Russian Alliance and the present commitments of Great Britain to the Republic of France?

The policy and liabilities to which His Majesty's Government are committed are those of the Alliance made with France on 5th September, 1914, which has been published. As regards the rest of the question, I would refer the hon. Member to the answers given to him on 4th and 10th March and 28th April, 1915.

Re-Enlistment Leave

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if time expired soldiers do not receive their month's leave on re-enlistment; and if they can be assured that it will eventually be granted them independent of the usual ten days' leave?

All men who, on becoming time expired, are retained in the Service under the Military Service Act, 1916 (Session 2), are granted a month's leave if recommended by their commanding officers. Such leave is granted at the discretion of General Officers Commanding, provided these men can be spared. It should, however, be understood that all leave in the case of men serving overseas is necessarily dependent on the amount of transport accommodation available. The month's leave referred to is quite independent of any other leave granted in the ordinary course.

Is not the month's leave really a right, which does not depend upon the kind offices of the Commanding Officer except as to time?

Any man who is time-expired and continues his service is still a soldier of the Crown, and it all depends on military exigencies whether at that particular time he gets the month's leave.

Is it considered a right, and is it understood that it will be granted by and by, if not at the time?

I think it is a right, but it cannot be granted in each case at the time.

Soldiers' Communications to Members of Parliament

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether it is proposed to retain the Regulations which forbid soldiers to make criticisms, suggestions, or complaints to Members of Parliament?

asked whether any soldiers have been punished, and, if so, how many, for communicating to their representatives in Parliament complaints, suggestions, or criticisms?

asked what punishment, if any, falls upon soldiers and officers who are found to have made communications to their representatives in Parliament containing suggestions, criticisms, or complaints?

asked how the Regulation which forbids officers and soldiers to communicate to their representatives in Parliament criticisms, suggestions, or complaints is applied in the cases of soldiers who are also Members of Parliament?

asked how long the Regulations have been in force which prevent soldiers communicating to their representatives in Parliament criticisms, complaints, or suggestions?

asked whether the Regulations which forbid soldiers to communicate complaints to Members of Parliament apply in cases where soldiers desire to submit to their representatives statements as to their health or as to the position of their dependants?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can give an assurance to the House that no soldier whose letter of complaint or suggestion is sent to the War Office by a Member of Parliament will be subjected to any punishment?

asked whether, in view of the fact that the Army is now composed of the great majority of the young manhood of the nation, steps will be taken to cancel the Regulation framed in the interests of discipline in the old Army forbidding soldiers to write letters to Members of Parliament containing criticism and suggestions?

asked if the help of their representatives in Parliament is often sought by members of the Army in cases of hardship, illness, care of dependants, and other matters, with beneficial results; and whether such communications are forbidden?

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the concern felt in many quarters at the existence of Regulations which forbid officers and soldiers to communicate complaints, suggestions, or criticisms to their representatives in Parliament; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?

Before the hon. Gentleman answers these questions, may I ask him whether it is not a fact that these Regulations have, most unfortunately, become necessary by the action of certain hon. Members in magnifying trivialities and seeking to make mischief in the Army?

Probably the suggestion of my hon. Friend is in the minds of a good many hon. Members. I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend's question on this sub- ject on the 30th October, and to the supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for the Elland Division.

Does the hon. Gentleman propose to reply to the new points mentioned in these questions, which were not replied to before?

I have looked carefully at the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Mid-Lanark (Mr. Whitehouse), and to the supplementary question by the hon. Member for the Elland Division (Mr. Trevelyan), and the answers to the main question and the supplementary question completely cover the points.

Will the hon. Gentleman reply to the question whether soldiers have in fact been punished for communicating with their Members of Parliament?

I covered that in the answer to the supplementary question which I gave. I said that, so far as I knew, and I have verified my facts, no soldier has been in any way punished for communicating with his Member of Parliament.

Will the hon. Member reply to the question asking how the Regulation is enforced in the case of officers and soldiers who are members of this House?

Is it not a fact that a soldier who communicated with a Committee set up by this House to inquire into the Military Service Act was sentenced to three days' "C. B."?

That point was put to me the other day and at the time I could not reply. I referred to communications made to me personally by Members of this House. What happened in that particular case I do not know.

Is it not a fact that be was actually punished and appeared under arrest before a Committee of this House?

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he will undertake that letters addressed by soldiers to Members of Parliament at the House of Commons shall not be subjected to military censorship?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether letters written to Members of Parliament by soldiers in the field are stopped by the Censor; and whether there is any case of a soldier having been punished for writing such letters?

Letters written by soldiers in the field which contain matter contravening the Censorship Orders for Troops in the Field are liable to be detained by the Censor. Letters to Members of this House are not excepted from this rule. As regards the concluding part of my hon. Friend's question, I have nothing to add to the reply I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Lanark.

Does the Government propose to take any steps to punish Members of this House who say in the House these things which the men write to them?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War under what Regulation or Order are soldiers, at home and abroad, respectively, restricted in their rights to write to Members of Parliament; and whether any replies sent to soldiers abroad by Members of Parliament are subject to any special censorship or liability to be stopped?

I have already replied to the first part of my hon. Friend's question in the answer which I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Haggerston. With regard to the second part, the answer is in the negative. Letters from Members of Parliament are no more liable to be stopped than letters from other persons.

Special Reserve (Commanding Officers' Promotion)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the responsible duties which have been discharged since the commencement of the War by officers commanding special reserve battalions in this country; whether those duties include the command of battalions of exceptionally large numbers, the training of great numbers of officers and men for active service, and the preparation and organisation for local defence; whether promotion has been given to any of these special reserve commanding officers in this country; and whether he will consider the desirability in proper cases of giving these commanding officers the command of a brigade?

Seventeen promotions have been given this year to special reserve commanding officers in this country, and two of them are in command of brigades.

East African Campaign (Indian Troops)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War what arrangements have been made to inquire into the condition of the Indian troops serving in East Africa, with special reference to their medical equipment, convalescent treatment, and rationing?

Yes, Sir; a special inquiry is being made by officers who have been deputed for this purpose.

Mesopotamian Campaign

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is in a position to make a statement as to recent military events and the present position in Mesopotamia, the kingdom of the Hedjaz, and the neighbouring sultanates?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the frequent and full communiqués which have been issued to the Press in regard to recent military events in the theatres under reference. I am afraid that the publication of a detailed statement as to the present position in these theatres while operations are in progress would not be compatible with the public interest.

Military Service

Russians and Poles

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what is the estimate of Russian and Polish subjects of military age in the United Kingdom, and of these how many have actually been dispatched to their native country; how many have appealed against military service, and how many have claimed and obtained exemption owing to the good offices of Russian officials in this country; and if special tribunals to consider appeals have been set up in Brighton and Dublin?

As I informed my hon. and gallant Friend on 30th October, about four-sevenths of the Russian subjects who applied in the prescribed manner to return have availed themselves of the opportunity. In regard to the second part of the question, I would refer him to the answer given on the 30th. I have no information as to the number of exemptions granted by the Russian Ambassador, to whom the power is reserved. I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board in regard to the last part of the question. I understand it is not proposed to establish a tribunal in Brighton, and he will doubtless bear in mind that there is no object in establishing a tribunal in Dublin, as the Military Service Acts do not apply to Ireland.

What happens supposing one of these Russians goes to Ireland; is he exempt then?

No; he is not exempt at all. We have means under the Military Service Acts of getting him back.

Reclassification (C 3 Men)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether C 3 men of forty-one years of age are being sent out to France for clerical work immediately after they have joined the Army; and whether these men in France may have their categories raised and be placed in combatant corps without any opportunity of a proper appeal to a medical board?

The men to whom my hon. Friend refers would not be sent to France unless they have been passed fit for, and have received sufficient training in, the duties required. With regard to the last part of the question, I think my hon. Friend is under some misapprehension, as such reclassification would not be carried out without the men being brought before a special medical board at the base.

Desertion

asked the Undersecretary of State for War if he will have immediate inquiry made into the case of Private No. 241252, 1/5th Lincolnshire Regiment, who is only nineteen years of age and who deserted his regiment in France about six weeks ago, having been over the top twice just previous to deserting and at the time of his desertion was undergoing field punishment No. 1 for two hours daily in a place exposed to shell fire and because of this exposure he ran away; will he ascertain if this boy was sent to France last week for court-martial; and, in the event of sentence of death being passed upon him, will he see, in view of his youth and past fighting record, that the death penalty is not carried out?

If the facts are as stated and the soldier has been guilty of desertion, my hon. Friend will realise that it is impossible for me to attempt to influence the Court which will try him in their finding or their sentence. The extenuating circumstances suggested would probably form the subject of a plea in mitigation of sentence which would receive the due consideration of the Court and of the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, by whom the proceedings eventually would be confirmed or mitigated.

Will the hon. Gentleman inquire whether it is a fact, as stated in the question, that soldiers may be subjected to field punishment under shell fire?

I will certainly inquire, but I am extremely doubtful if any such practice exists.

Last Sons of Widowed Mothers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that men who have only one eye have been recently passed for active service in his Department who were, on account of their deficiency, the last of families of sons of widowed mothers to be taken; that in some instances the brothers have been killed fighting the enemy; and, having regard to the promise given in this House that the last son of a widowed mother would not be taken, will his Department release men so situated?

Men who have lost their right eye, if otherwise fit, are classified in a category lower than general service. Men who have lost their left eye, if otherwise fit, are passed to Class W of the Reserve in order that they may be called up later for general service, if necessary. In regard to my hon. Friend's suggestion that the last support of a widowed mother has been taken, if he will give me particulars I will make inquiries, provided that the man is in the Army. The question of taking him for the Army is a matter for a tribunal.

One-Man Businesses

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have had under consideration the many cases of hardship that the calling up of men engaged in what are called one-man businesses entails; whether he is aware that such hardship is aggravated by the knowledge that Irishmen and aliens of Allied or neutral birth are exempted from a liability which falls on those of British birth alone; and whether he will make an early pronouncemeut of some scheme to preserve the interests and business of men who are called up for service?

The Prime Minister has asked me to inform the hon. and gallant Member that the Government is giving the fullest consideration to the cases of hardship arising out of the calling up of proprietors of one-man businesses. As a result of conference which I have had with various one-man business organisations, a federation has been formed of associations representing such proprietors, and a Joint Committee, under the chairmanship of one of my officials, has been set up to consider what steps it is possible to take with a view to minimising undue hardship. It is not likely that any scheme laid down on hard and fast lines will be applicable, as these cases vary so much in their detail. It is, however, hoped that certain broad principles may be approved at an early date, and that thereafter cases will be dealt with individually in accordance with those principles.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Local Government Board have a scheme on foot? Is that scheme to be transferred to the National Service Department?

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in addition to the Local Government Board there is also a scheme being devised by the Civil Liabilities Committee? Are we to understand that these schemes have been taken over by the National Service Ministry and that they are going to come to a decision?

The scheme will be a Government scheme, and the Departments concerned are in the closest consultation.

Which Department will come to a final decision, and which Department will work the scheme?

Will the discretion given to the tribunals by Statute be in any way interfered with?

There is no proposal at the present time to interfere with the discretion given to the tribunals by Statute. With respect to the other question, the result of the deliberations which are at present proceeding will, I have no doubt, be announced by the Department for which I am responsible.

In any cases where the tribunal has come to a decision already, will that decision be likely to be reviewed afterwards?

Is there any foundation for the statement in the question that Irishmen in this country are treated differently from those of British birth or allied and neutral birth?

There are certain privileges attaching to people whose place of ordinary residence was Ireland, and who cannot be interfered with by any administrative action.

Conscientious Objectors

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a conscientious objector now in Wormwood Scrubs is under observation in regard to his mental condition; that his mind has become affected as the result of his present treatment, and that while serving a previous sentence in Exeter he twice attempted to take his own life; and whether, in the circumstances, this man will be released and handed over to his friends?

My right hon. Friend stated the facts of this case fully on the 23rd October, in reply to a question by the hon. Member for North Somerset. The man referred to has now been certified insane, and instructions have been issued for his removal to Long Grove Asylum. There is no reason whatever to suppose that his mental state was due to prison treatment. The medical officer reports that there is conclusive evidence that the condition arose antecedently to imprisonment. Nothing is known of any attempt at suicide while in a civil prison.

Has any inquiry been made of his previous medical attendant before he was summoned to the Army?

I am afraid I am not in a position to say from whom the inquiry was made, but I am informed by my advisers that an exhaustive inquiry was made.

asked the Home Secretary whether the annual estimates for Dartmoor settlement are based upon the assumption that the loss per annum will be £40,000; and, if so, whether some more economical method will be devised for dealing with conscientious objectors than the Home Office scheme, which has proved to be a complete failure as a means of providing useful work for conscientious objectors as an alternative to keeping them in prison?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The total gross expenditure at Prince-town Work Centre for the six months from 1st April to 30th September was £19,346; but against this must be put the value of the work done by the men, at present nearly 1,200 in number, most of whom are employed on farm work, land reclamation, quarrying, and building. The value is not less than £10,600. It is not the case that the Committee's scheme is a complete failure. The returns from the labour of conscientious objectors at the various camps and centres is better than it was, though there is room for further improvement.

asked the Home Secretary if he can state the circumstances under which Mr. Vendelmann, a gentleman of Belgian nationality, who was connected with the Leopold regime in the Congo Free State, has been placed in direct charge of some of the conscientious objectors employed at Dartmoor; what re- muneration this gentleman receives for his work; whether his antecedents are known; and whether English surveyors are not available for the supervision of the digging up of the moorland on Dartmoor?

I understand that Mr. Vendelmann, a Belgian, is employed by the Duchy of Cornwall, who are carrying on a scheme of reclamation on Dartmoor. I have no information as to his remuneration or his antecedents. He is not in charge of the conscientious objectors employed in carrying out the reclamation scheme of the Duchy, who are under the direct charge and control of an officer of the work centre.

Questions

Soldiers (Political Meetings and Associations)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War to what extent the present Army Regulations forbid soldiers attending political meetings or joining political associations; and whether there is any prohibition upon a member of His Majesty's forces attending meetings during an election in the constituency in which he is a voter, in order that he may learn the views of the respective candidates and thus be able properly to exercise the right of voting proposed to be conferred upon him by the Representation of the People Bill?

The present Regulations dealing with the subject will be found in paragraph 451 of the King's Regulations. The provisions as to the exercise of the right of voting by a soldier will be found by reference to the second section of the Act, 1847, to regulate the stations of soldiers during Parliamentary elections, but for my hon. Friend's convenience I will forward him a copy of the Orders which are issued when a writ for the election of a Member to serve in the House is issued from the Crown Office.

Royal Flying Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any steps can be taken to increase the recruiting of officers for the Royal Flying Corps from public school boys reaching military age, as, for example, by arranging for successful squadron commanders to lecture at the schools and by increasing the rewards for individual courage in the air?

I understand that there is no shortage of candidates as pilots. The requirements of the Army have to be considered as a whole, and in this particular sphere of recruiting, which provides highly desirable recruits for all branches of the Army, I do not think any particular arm of the Service should have preference.

Expeditionary Force (Decoration)

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether the decoration which is to be given to the members of the original Expeditionary Force will be given to the next-of-kin of those officers and men who have since fallen in the War?

In the case of deceased officers and men who, if they had survived, would have received this decoration, issue will be made to the persons legally entitled to receive it.

Royal Army Medical Corps

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Royal Army Medical Corps is now represented by a layman on the Army Council; and whether, in view of the condition of the Medical Services in various campaigns during the present War, and of the status given in the Armies of our Allies to the medical officers who have charge of their medical services, he will take any steps to secure that the Royal Army Medical Corps shall be represented on the Army Council by a qualified medical officer?

I must refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answers I gave to his two questions on this subject on 6th and 8th August. I have nothing to add.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the fact that when hospital physicians and surgeons were asked to join the Royal Army Medical Corps, Territorial Force, in 1908 they were given a definite official assurance by the then Director-General, Army Medical Service, that, if they did so, their appointment would entail no duties in time of peace, but a liability in time of invasion or national emergency to perform only clinical duties identical with those they perform in civil life in the general hospitals; and whether he will explain why a number of hospital physicians and surgeons who are over military age and who joined the Royal Army Medical Corps, Territorial Force, on this understanding in 1908 have been compelled to perform duties other than clinical which are wholly foreign to their previous experience?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, with this qualification, that no promise was made that the clinical duties should be identical with those performed in civil life. I am not aware of any case in which these officers are compelled to do duties other than clinical

Surgeon-General Sir William Babtie

asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether Surgeon-General Sir William Babtie was appointed to his present position as Director of Medical Services at the War Office in recognition of the services he rendered in Mesopotamia; whether the causes of the breakdown of the medical services in Mesopotamia have been examined by any court-martial or court of inquiry; and whether the Army Council is satisfied as to what officer or officers must be held responsible for the breakdown of the medical services in Mesopotamia?

Surgeon-General Sir William Babtie was Director of Medical Services at the War Office before the Report of the Mesopotamian Commission was issued. After the appearance of the Report he was given leave, pending its consideration. As I stated in my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset, on 18th October, Sir William Babtie submitted his explanation to the Army Council, who found it satisfactory, and he was recalled from leave to resume his official duties. I added that the Council still awaited the explanation of the other officers. From this it might be inferred, indeed it has been inferred, that these officers were called upon for their explanation at the same time as Sir William Babtie, and that they failed to submit them within a reasonable time. Such is not the case, and I regret very much that my reply should have given any ground for an inference both unwarrantable and unjust and prejudicial towards the distinguished officers concerned, who are, and have been, anxious to offer their explanations. Until all the explanations have been received I cannot answer the last part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question.

Will my hon. Friend give publicity to the explanation offered by Surgeon-General Babtie to the Army Council and accepted by them, in view of the public charges contained in the Report?

Is not the reappointment of this officer a direct slur upon the Report of the Committee appointed by this House?

My hon. Friend will remember that in the case of Sir William Babtie the Commission practically recommended that he should be reappointed.

Why cannot the House of Commons get the explanation which was offered by Surgeon-General Babtie in order that we may know whether the explanation warrants this new appointment?

I think Sir William Babtie is content to let the matter remain where it is.

Is Sir William Babtie's explanation being sent to the Chairman of the Mesopotamia Commission?

General Sir Archibald Murray

asked the Undersecretary of State for War how many, and, if so, what appointments General Sir Archibald Murray has held since the beginning of the War; and whether any special reasons exist for the continued employment of this officer?

Sir Archibald Murray has been Chief of the General Staff in France, Chief of the Imperial General Staff at the War Office, General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Egypt. In regard to the last part of the question his most distinguished military record and his undoubted abilities amply justify his present appointment.

Medical Officers

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the shortage of doctors in this country, it is necessary that a man discharged from the Army owing to the loss of a limb, consumption, shell-shock, or other obvious disability, should be examined by six or more medical officers in the process of his discharge?

Only one medical board is necessary to determine the fitness or unfitness of a man for further service. But in the case of men suffering from nervous disorders a special board considers the case anew.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if, in view of the shortage of doctors in this country, it is necessary that three medical officers should sit on medical boards for privates and non-commissioned officers; and whether, if this arrangement is necessary, he can explain why two medical officers are sufficient to constitute a medical board for officers?

Two medical officers are sufficient to form a board, but in view of the grave issues which have to be determined three is a better number whenever the local establishments admit of this.

It depends on the case. Very strong animadversions were made in this House on the fact that the War Office did not give sufficient medical examination. Now that we are accused of giving too many doctors for medical examinations the case seems just as bad.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that these doctors are very much needed in civilian practice?

All that has been kept in mind. I stated in my answer that the civil establishments employ as many doctors as possible.

East Africa Campaign

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War when it is hoped that the reports from the accredited correspondent accompanying the forces operating in East Africa will appear in the British and Indian newspapers?

I am afraid that the War Office can do no more than give every facility to the accredited correspondent to enable him to write his reports. When any report is received, it will no doubt be published. I understand that at present the correspondent is on the sick list.

Wet Canteens

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether communications have been received at the War Office from representative persons, including the headmaster of the Manchester Grammar School, calling attention to the dangers resulting from the existence of wet canteens in battalions composed of youths eighteen years old, some of them fresh from school, and in officer cadet battalions in which a large number of boys are under eighteen; and what action the Army Council propose to take in the matter?

I have not seen the communications to which my hon. Friend refers, but I would remind him that in officer cadet battalions a very large proportion of the cadets are twenty-two years old and upwards. It is not proposed to take any action in the sense indicated.

Will my hon. Friend personally look at the communication from the headmaster of the Manchester Grammar School?

Officer Prisoners' Pay

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office (1) whether, as regards British officer pri- soners of war in Germany the 60 marks per month paid by the German Government to lieutenants and second lieutenants and the 100 marks per month paid by them to captains and officers of higher rank for their maintenance are to be treated as advances made by the German Government and to be ultimately repaid to them at the end of the War; whether there is any reason why such advances of 60 and 100 marks per month respectively, should not be taken as being of their actual exchange value, which in August last were £1 14s. 3d. and £2 19s., respectively; whether he will explain why the War Office authorities deduct from the pay of such officer prisoners of war £3 per month instead of £1 14s. 3d. in the case of lieutenants and second lieutenants, and £5 a month instead of £2 19s. in the case of captains and officers of higher rank; (2) whether the advances made by the British Government to German prisoners of war in this country of £6 per month in the case of officers of rank equivalent to lieutenant and second lieutenant and of £7 10s. per month in the case of officers of rank equivalent to captain and above ought to be and will be ultimately repaid by the German Government and at what rate of exchange?

As I explained in my reply to my hon. and learned Friend on the 25th ultimo, the purchasing power of the mark spent in Germany is not affected by the foreign rate of exchange. It was, therefore, decided that the proper deduction from pay in this country was the amount calculated on the standard value of the payment in Germany. Under The Hague Convention the amounts advanced by the British and German Governments, respectively, fall due for repayment to them at the end of the War; but there is no present agreement as to the rate of exchange.

In view of the fact that in this matter, as in others, the Germans have thrown The Hague Convention into the waste-paper basket, can my right hon. Friend give any reason why these British officers should be charged very nearly double in this country the value of what they receive in Germany?

I think that is not the case. The British officer has received the full purchasing value of the mark in Germany.

Surely if the £3 which is deducted in this country from the officers' pay were sent over to Germany, instead of getting 60 marks he would get something much nearer 100. Why is it fair, when he only gets 60 marks in this country, to deduct £3 in this way?

I am the last man in the world to want to deprive the British officer of any advantage we can give him. I will certainly look into the matter again.

Why in the case of an officer of higher rank does the German get an advantage of over half as much again, apart from exchange altogether?

I have explained that several times. Under The Hague Convention prisoners of war are paid by the captor Government the rate of pay appropriate to the captor Government's own officers. Our rates of pay are higher than the German rates. When we found that the German Government was issuing a rate of pay lower than that which they issue to their officers we made a corresponding reduction in the amount that we issued to the German prisoners.

Is not our rate still very much higher, and when are we going to have an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?

In view of the fact that the German Government has not abided by the conditions of The Hague Convention is there any reason why we should pay these German officer prisoners of war more than the Germans pay our prisoners of war?

I should be very slow to run any risk of diminishing the attenuated payment which is at present made to our officers.

Naval and Military Pensions and Geants

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that widows, mothers, and other dependants have often difficulty in understanding the statement of accounts and credits in respect of deceased soldiers as presented by the regimental paymasters, and are often in doubt as to whether a complete and accurate statement has been made of moneys or other personal property in the possession of or due to these deceased soldiers, and payable to those to whom they left their property; and whether a simpler, clearer system can be devised which would at the same time convey full and satisfactory information?

A simple standard form of account is in use, and clear instructions have been issued for its preparation. I will consider whether any further simplification can be effected, but, as I am sure the hon. Member will realise, it is not possible to devise any form of account in these cases which will not present difficulties to certain applicants. I understand that complaints have been comparatively few, but if the hon. Member will bring any specific cases to my notice, I shall be glad to have them investigated.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a fact that statements of amount are not supplied to the relatives unless they are specially asked for, and the relatives are not aware in many cases that they are entitled to a statement?

In view of the great number of complaints against regimental paymasters, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any system of auditing the accounts of these paymasters?

asked whether any wives are deprived of their separation allowances on the strength of secret police reports without their husbands being consulted?

A wife's separation allowance is never forfeited on the police report without corroboration, which is obtained in all cases from the local committee, except in cases of admitted immorality or of conviction for neglect of children. The husband is informed when it is decided that forfeiture of separation allowance must be made. The hon. Member will appreciate that it would be impossible to wait for consultation with the husband without a delay which would certainly be long and might be indefinite.

May we take it that the husband is always informed before the separation allowance is actually stopped?

The husband is informed, but we cannot wait until we get a reply in many cases.

Medical Re-Examination

asked the Pensions Minister whether he is aware that certain medical doctors when re-examining discharged men with a view to a possible revision of pension have a habit of asking them what wages they are earning; whether he can state for what reason this inquiry is made; and whether assessment for pension is based upon injuries received or whether it bears some relationship to economic circumstances?

As regards the first part of the question inquiries as to earnings should not take place, but as it has been represented that the practice has not entirely ceased, the Army Council have at my request recently issued an Instruction in the matter. As regards the second part, the assessment for minimum pension is based purely on the extent of a man's disability without regard to what he may be able to earn. If, however, a man is unable to follow a remunerative pre-war occupation by reason of his disablement and has to undertake a less remunerative one, he can apply for an alternative pension based on his pre-war earnings.

Is it not a fact that it is the practice of the Department not only to inquire what the man himself is earning but what the members of his family are earning?

No; In assessing the maximum pension we do not inquire into the earnings at all. As regards the alternative pension we only inquire what the man himself earned before the War.

Soldiers' Children (Industrial Training)

asked the Pensions Minister what is being done, in regard to the industrial training of the children of private soldiers and noncommissioned officers who died during service or after discharge; whether any extra allowance is made in cases in which such children are to serve an apprenticeship at a trade and to receive special training; and whether he will indicate the future plans of his Department on this matter?

The Special Grants Committee are empowered to make Grants for the purpose of technical training or apprenticeship up to £25 a year, with £10 for travelling and other expenses for children, between the ages of thirteen and twenty-one, of noncommissioned officers and men. In the case of a child having to reside away from home, the amount can be increased to £50. The attention of local committees has also been drawn to the fact that the Special Grants Committee have a special fund from which the children of deceased sailors and soldiers can be assisted to start of life.

Food Supplies

Sugar (Detention of Steamer)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether his attention has been called to the case of a large steamer laden with sugar which arrived at a port on the North-East Coast on the 15th October about 9 p.m. and was ordered out to sea again next morning, where she remained for six hours in a danger zone before receiving orders to proceed to another port; whether this vessel has been in other ports since arrival in home waters; and, if the facts are as stated, what action he proposes to take to avoid the repetition of a similar occurrence?

The reports I have received are not quite complete, and I will therefore ask my hon. Friend either to put down his question again or to communicate with me privately.

Tea

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the War Trade Department have now authorised the import of China green tea destined for the use of the Moors provided it is shipped to this country in Japanese or neutral vessels and immediately transhipped; and whether, having regard to the loss and inconvenience which is now being caused owing to the tea prohibition, he can see his way to extend to the inhabitants of the United Kingdom the same rights to receive China black tea and Java tea imported in Japanese or neutral vessels as they have so wisely extended to the Moors?

The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. As regards the import of China tea into the United Kingdom, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Members for the Tower Hamlets and the Wirral Division of Cheshire on the 22nd October, of which I am sending him a copy. The grant of transhipment facilities is based on a set of considerations wholly different from those governing the import of the same goods, and there is nothing inconsistent in granting the one and withholding the other.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether a census of tea of the different grades available, both in bond and in duty paid, was taken by his Department on the 3rd September, and various other returns furnished with regard to stocks within the United Kingdom during that month; whether he can now state what was the total quantity of duty-paid teas included in his census returns and the estimated quantity existing in the country which could not be included; and whether he will furnish the House with a table giving the effect of the various returns obtained by the Department as a result of these inquiries?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The total quantity of duty-paid tea included in the census returns amounted to 27,250,000 lbs. I am unable to form any estimate of the tea held in quantities of less than 500 lbs., and, therefore, not included in the census. The effect of the various returns obtained by the Department is not, I imagine, of general interest, but I shall be happy to furnish the right hon. Gentleman with a summary if he so desires.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, with regard to the Order restricting the maximum price of tea to 4s. per lb., whether it was brought to his notice by a deputation that the Government had sold considerable quantities of tea a short time before the Order was issued at 4s. 9d. to 4s. 11d. per lb., including duty; that they had received the cash for these teas, but that, owing to various transit difficulties and other delays and the short notice which was given by the Food Controller as to the proposed new maximum price, in many cases these teas had not reached the hands of the buyers when the Government limitation of the retail price to 4s. per lb. was imposed; whether he declined to give even a short postponement of the Order so that these teas might be disposed of and other difficulties met; if he has now considered this matter m the light of the facts brought before him; and if he can announce any method of meeting the difficulty?

A deputation waited upon the Food Controller on 31st October, and called his attention to the fact that the Government, through the Admiralty, had sold at high prices a quantity of tea of which delivery had not then been obtained. In view of the extravagant prices which were being charged in many districts for quite common tea, Lord Rhondda could not consent to any postponement of the Order referred to in the question. He is, however, willing to consider the desirability of making special arrangements to meet ascertained cases of hardship in respect of tea sold by the Admiralty Marshal, where such tea was still in bond on 31st October.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food, with regard to his Order limiting the retail price of tea to 4s. per pound, whether he has considered that the duty, freight charges, and allowance for the cost of distribution in this country now amount to over 2s. per pound; and whether, having regard to the fact that small quantities of tea of fine quality have always been sold in this country at wholesale prices much over 2s., and seeing that the quantity which might be so dealt in had already been limited to 10 per cent., he can see his way to modify the Order so as to allow at least some small proportion of the finest qualities to be sold as free teas without limit of prices, so as not to prevent tea growers experimenting in producing tea of the finest qualities which are appreciated in this country by persons belonging to every class of society and which do so much to improve the general quality of the tea crop?

The Food Controller gave full consideration to the amount of duty, freight charges, and cost of distribution before the Tea (Provisional Prices) Order was issued. It should be borne in mind that there is still in the country a quantity of uncontrolled tea, brought either from China or Java before importation was restricted, or from India or Ceylon before the scheme of control came into operation, and that a considerable quantity of this tea is of inferior quality. A modification of the Order in the direction indicated by the right hon. Gentleman would make it extremely difficult to prevent the sale of this inferior tea at an extravagant price. The quantity of high-grade tea sold in this country at high prices is normally quite small, and I see no reason why a temporary restriction of price should discourage planters from continuing experiments which will prove of permanent value.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for the partial concession, could it not be extended so as to cover teas on which the duty has been paid?

I have not had an opportunity of going into the question, but I will inquire into it.

Spirits in Bond

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he can now state the policy of the Government in regard to the release of further supplies of whisky from bond; and whether the Government propose to regulate retail prices?

I am unable to add anything to the answer given to this question on Thursday last.

May I ask my hon. Friend what is the real policy of the Government in connection with these restrictions? Is it due to fear on the part of the brewers that the customers will take to whisky instead of to beer, or is it part of the national temperance policy?

Herring Fishery

( by Private Notice ) asked the Secretary for Scotland if his attention has been called to the fact that the herring fishery off the coast of Norfolk is now in full swing, and that large catches of fish are being landed every day, but that the Scotch fleet of 160 boats is preparing to return home this week, leaving only 25 boats belonging to Yarmouth and Lowestoft; that this will practically end the fishing; if he can arrange for the Scottish boats to remain, and to continue fishing until the end of the month, and thus save a very large amount of valuable food which will otherwise be lost to the country?

I have to-day received representations to the same effect as those contained in my hon. Friend's question. I fully appreciate the importance of the matter. I am sending a representative to Yarmouth to inquire and report without delay.

Questions

Honours (Contributions to Party Funds)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of recent disclosures concerning the sale of honours in return for contributions to party funds, and that such sales were continued over a number of years through the offices of the Lords of the Treasury; and whether he will take some steps to render such transactions in future impossible?

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, having regard to specific cases of selling or offering to sell honours and titles in return for party fund contributions, which cases have been recently made public, he can assure the House that no such transactions have occurred under the present Government?

I do not believe that any Government would be prepared to admit the principle that subscription to party funds should debar a subscriber who would be otherwise suitable from recognition at the hands of the Sovereign. The Prime Minister has made, and will make, no recommendation to His Majesty as a reward for contributions to party funds.

If a man gives a large sum to the party funds, is it not likely to bias the judgment of the Prime Minister?

I dare say it is likely, but perhaps my hon. Friend knows that the Government assented to the de- cision in another place, and that the Prime Minister distinctly said he was not influenced by these considerations?

Will he require a full statement in each case from the Patronage Secretary?

Otherwise he will not be in a position to say that he had not been influenced indirectly.

Do the Government as a whole accept the decision arrived at in the Resolution of the other House?

Of course the Government accept the decision, which was assented to by the Leader of the Government in the other House.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that now that no one has to pay for honours there will be a tremendous rush for them?

Will the Government abolish all party funds, and also all hereditary titles?

Does the right hon. Gentleman assert that no honours have been given as a result of contributions to party funds?

I said the Prime Minister has given no honours for that reason and does not intend to do so.

Invaded Territories (Evacuation by Germany)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now inform the House of the results of his promised inquiry as to the advisability of publishing a White Paper which would furnish the House and the country with the exact words of enemy statesmen on the subjects of the evacuation of Belgium, Alsace-Lorraine, and other matters to which he has recently replied?

I have considered the hon. Member's suggestion, and I regret that I do not think that such a collection could be published in a form which would be of any great value. The speeches of enemy statesmen on the subjects referred to are in most cases available only in the form of newspaper reports—often incomplete, and in varying versions. In these matters accuracy of text is of paramount importance, and, as I fear that this could not be reached in the suggested White Paper, I think it better not to proceed with its preparation.

Are the official reports of enemy Parliamentary assemblies not available?

Inventions (Co-Ordination of Departments)

asked the Prime Minister how many Inventions Boards and Departments are at present attached to the various Departments of State; whether he is aware that there has been overlapping and consequent waste in their activities; whether the promise that this matter should be considered has resulted in any changes in the direction of co-ordination; and whether any arrangements exist for co-operation with the Inventions Departments of all our Allies?

The question of the more effective co-ordination of the various Boards and bodies concerned with invention is now under examination by the War Cabinet Communication is maintained with the corresponding Departments of our Allies.

Spirits (Release from Bond)

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the shortage of spirits in the licensed trade; and if he will say when an increased amount will be allowed out from bond?

I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The question of releasing further supplies of spirits from bond is still under consideration. An announcement will be made so soon as a decision has been reached.

Secretary of State for India

Temporary Arrangements

asked the Prime Minister (1) which of the Secretaries of State, during the absence in India or on his way there and back of the Secretary of State for India, has and performs the powers and duties relating to the government or revenues of India contemplated by the Government of India Act, 1915, and in particular what Secretary of State during the absence of the Secretary of State for India from the realm does, as provided in Clause 2 thereof, superintend, direct, and control all acts, operations, and concerns which relate to the government or revenues of India and all grants of salaries, gratuities, and allowances, and all other payments and charges out of or on the revenues of India; (2) which of the Principal Secretaries of State is, during the absence from the United Kingdom of the present Secretary of State for India, responsible to the Crown and Parliament for the exercise of the Royal Prerogative in the government of India; (3) what officer of the Crown does, during the absence from the United Kingdom of the present Secretary of State for India on his expedition to India, exercise the duties of convening and deliberating with the Council of India and of voting at meetings of that Council, and in particular in regard to such matters as Section 28 of the Government of India Act, 1915, requires to be decided at a meeting of the Council of India with the concurrence of a majority of votes in respect of raising money, mortgaging estate, making contracts, and giving assurances?

Technically my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for India, during his absence from this country, retains responsibility for the due and proper exercise of the powers vested in him by the Government of India Act, 1915, and an Act of Parliament would be required to relieve him of these responsibilities. But the Cabinet were of opinion that, as a temporary expedient, the following arrangements would suffice:

Dispatches to India require the signature of the Secretary of State. Any Secretary of State may act for any other, and at present the dispatches are being signed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

Most of the powers of the Secretary of State for India are exercised by the Secretary of State in Council, and the Act provides for meetings of the Council for the transaction of business in the absence of the Secretary of State. Council continues to meet weekly, the Vice-President presiding, as required by the Act.

Urgent questions of the first importance will be decided by the Cabinet. Questions of importance, but not of great urgency, will be decided after the Secretary of State for India's views have been obtained by telegraph. Questions of less importance will be decided in the Department in accordance with ordinary departmental procedure.

Lord Islington, Parliamentary Undersecretary of State, represents the Secretary of State in the Ministry and in Parliament.

Will Lord Islington, as Vice-President of the Council, preside at its meetings, and, if not, who will?

Are we to understand that Lord Islington is not acting actually in place of the Secretary of State at present?

Lord Islington is acting in place of the Secretary of State as far as he can.

And has the powers that the Secretary of Stats would have at the Council?

That is subject to what I have stated. As far as it is possible for him to act for the Secretary of State he is acting.

In the absence of the Secretary of State from the meetings of the Council, from any cause whatever, does not the Vice-chairman of the Council, who is elected from time to time by the Council, take the chair, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Parliamentary Secretary is not a member of the Council, and has no right to speak, though he habitually attends its proceedings?

No; I was not aware of that. My right hon. Friend has answered the supplementary question.

Is this arrangement intended to evade an Act of Parliament, and would it not be better to introduce a short Act?

My right hon. Friend has not listened to my answer. We could not have made any other arrangement except by Act of Parliament. I may add that the full question of the arrangements to be made in the absence of the Secretary of State for India was submitted by him to the Cabinet and approved of by him.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the acting Secretary of State at present, according to the description we have just had, has no vote on the Council, and does he think that this is consistent with the dignity of an acting Secretary of State?

If my hon. Friend will read the answer which I have just given he will see that that point has been dealt with.

Questions

War Cabinet (General Smuts)

asked the Prime Minister whether the list of the personnel of the Government published with the Parliamentary Debates of 16th October is official; if so, whether he can explain the omission of the name of General Smuts; whether the situation of General Smuts within the Government has ever been denned; and, if not, whether it will now be defined?

The list referred to is prepared by the Editor of the OFFICIAL REPORT, and inserted for the convenience of hon. Members. General Smuts' name will, I am informed, appear in the next list. As regards the last two parts of the question, I have nothing to add to the previous statements which have been made on this subject. [ See list at beginning of this Volume. ]

Old Age Pensions

asked if the extra 2s. 6d. paid to old age pensioners applies to all new applicants as to pensions at the time such concession was made?

Any applicant for an old age pension who is awarded such pension will also receive the additional allowance of 2s. 6d.

Ships (Diversion)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he is aware that loss and inconvenience are being caused by the diversion of ships carrying tea from the port of London to Liverpool and latterly to Manchester; and whether it is practicable for him, in co-operation with the Admiralty, to arrange that these vessels shall come into the port of London?

The paramount consideration in this connection is, and must continue to be, the safety of the ship and of her cargo. As far as it is compatible with safety the Ministry of Shipping endeavours in its arrangements to meet the convenience of merchants and shippers. Generally, it is not considered desirable that ships which are to load outwards from West Coast ports should make the additional sea passage and take the consequent additional risk which would be entailed if they were sent to London to discharge, and I am afraid that hi these cases, therefore, some inconvenience is unavoidable.

Education (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland if, in order to secure full and early consideration by all concerned and in accordance with the general desire, he will endeavour to arrange that the Scottish Education Bill should be introduced this Session, without discussion, and printed?

I hope that it may be found possible to adopt the course suggested by my hon. Friend.

Housing, Lanarkshire

asked the Secretary for Scotland (1) whether, having regard to the representations recently received by him from local authorities and trade councils, and other public bodies, as to the need for providing additional housing accommodation for the industrial population engaged in war work in Lanarkshire and other populous districts in Scotland, and to the views expressed by the Commissioners on industrial unrest and on housing in Scotland that bad housing at present constitutes an important factor in creating unrest, he is now in a position to make an announcement as to the steps which he proposes to take to provide additional housing accommodation in the districts referred to; whether Treasury sanction has been obtained for a grant being made by the State in connection with the new housing scheme; (2) whether his attention has been drawn to the need for providing additional housing accommodation in Lanarkshire; whether he is aware that in Hamilton there are cases of 9, 10, and even 12 persons living in a single apartment; that in Airdrie the most recent returns show that there are 620 houses occupied by more than one family; that in Motherwell the sugar forms have disclosed that 600 families are living in sub-lets in the same house along with other families; that 3,000 people have to travel daily to their work in Motherwell owing to the insufficient housing accommodation there; that 600 houses are required at once in that burgh in order to meet the present need; and that, as a result of the overcrowding and unhealthy housing conditions prevailing in the middle ward of Lanarkshire, the public health is being endangered and the energy and efficiency of the war workers impaired; and whether he proposes to take early action to meet the situation thus created?

I am well aware of the clamant requirements of the districts referred to by my hon. and learned Friend. As he knows, in present circumstances the housing of munition workers must have the first claim, and I am accordingly in consultation with the Minister of Munitions on the question whether the shortage of accommodation in Lanarkshire can now be regarded as falling within the class of case with which he would be prepared to deal as a matter of immediate urgency. Hitherto the difficulties in the way of providing labour and material on the scale required have stood in the way of such action; but my hon. Friend may rest assured that no efforts will be spared to meet the needs for which he pleads if at all compatible with the general national requirements. I have no reason to doubt his second question contains a fair statement of the facts, and I am well aware how serious they are.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the districts referred to practically the whole population is engaged in war work, and therefore would fall under the definition of munition workers?

Allotments (Cultivation of Lands Order)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has any figures to show the number of allotments which have been taken over under the Defence of the Realm Act as distinct from the allotments secured by voluntary agreement; whether he has yet come to any decision with regard to the question of securing a continuity of holding in connection with these allotments throughout the country; what steps he has taken to increase the number of allotments during the forthcoming winter and to aid the formation of a national association; and whether he can state by what methods, either administrative or legislative, the Government proposes to make these allotments a permanent factor in our national life?

Complete returns have not been collected, but the information obtained shows that 180,636 allotments have been provided under the Cultivation of Lands Order, the total area taken over being 13,282 acres. The Board have every hope that by making use of the provisions of the Defence of the Realm (Acquisition of Land) Act, 1916, it will be possible to secure the retention as allotments of most of the land taken over up to and including the season of 1920, except in those cases in which it is proved that the land is required for building purposes at an earlier date. The Board will urge local authorities to make full use of their powers this winter to extend the provision of allotments, and they are glad to see that allotment holders are being organised into a national association. The Government appreciate fully the importance of developing the allotment movement on a permanent basis, and the question as to what measures should be taken in that direction is being considered.

Land Settlement (Ex-Service Men)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture how it is proposed largely to extend the present provision for the land settlement of ex-service men in the United Kingdom; and what steps are being or are about to be taken to this end?

A scheme for the provision of land for the settlement of ex-service men is now under consideration by the Government, and I am unable as yet to make a statement upon it.

Ceylon Riots

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies when he proposes to publish the Report of the Inquiry recently held into the shooting without trial of British subjects in Ceylon in the year 1915; and whether the dispatch of Governor Sir John Anderson, dated 26th May, 1917, stating his opinion of the Report and the action he has taken upon it, will be published at the same time?

These Papers have already been published in Ceylon. I do not propose to reprint them in this country, but copies will be placed in the Library of the House.

Have not extracts from Sir John Anderson's Report already appeared in the public Press?

May I ask whether we shall have a full copy of Sir John Anderson's Report and of the Inquiry, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that his colleague, the Under-Secretary, in the Debate last August expressly promised that the Report should be published here?

It has been published in Ceylon, and it will be placed in precisely the same form in the Library here. As to the extract which has been published, I do not know where it came from.

Yes, I saw it. I am not aware of the particular promise to which the hon. Member refers, but I think that promise, so far as a promise was made, is met by placing a copy of the document in the Library.

If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the OFFICIAL REPORT for last August, page 552, he will find there was an express promise that the Report should be published here.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what was the date on which this Report, dated January of this year, came into his hands?

I really could not answer without reference. It is difficult for me to say. I can only say that it came to me some little time ago.

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he realises that the assurances which he gave to this House and the country in Debate more than twelve months ago are absolutely falsified by the Report, and whether he does not think that the House and the country are entitled to full information on the subject?

I have not had time to read the Report, but I should be sorry if the facts are as the right hon. Gentleman says. I cannot accept that at present. The country will certainly have an opportunity of seeing the Report, which will be laid on the Table, and will be accessible. Whether more is necessary or not we must judge.

Is the promise now made that the Report will be laid on the Table of the House. The Colonial Secretary said it was only to be placed in the Library?

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it extremely desirable to let this matter drop?

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the total amount of damage estimated by the Ceylon Government as having been caused to the Moormen by the riots; what amount the Government proposes to collect from the Sinhalese under the Riot Damage Ordinance, 1915; how much has already been collected; whether any lands have been sold for non-payment of this imposition; and whether any persons and, if so, how many have been fined or imprisoned for failure to pay?

Particulars of the estimated damage to property in the riots were given in the correspondence presented to Parliament in January, 1916. I have not complete information on the other points raised in the question, but I will make inquiry.

War Savings Meeting (Albert Hall)

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will now state the total cost of the Wear Savings meeting held at the Albert Hall on 22nd October apart from the £220 expended on the meeting itself; how many persons have received or have claimed out-of-pocket or other expenses; and what was the amount paid or claimed in respect of the same?

Of the honorary officers of the local war savings committees who attended the Albert Hall Meeting and other meetings and conferences held before and after it, 1,200 have so far claimed their expenses, amounting to an aggregate sum of approximately £3,500. These claims are at present under examination.

May I ask how many more claims the hon. Gentleman expects to get, or does he expect any?

If the hon. Member will put down a question next week I shall be pleased to answer.

Will the hon. Gentleman say why the Prime Minister's meetings are so expensive, and will he try to discourage them?

Local Authoeities (War Work)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware of the extra work and often unforseen demands on the time of local authorities that have been caused by the War; whether he is aware that the position of a man who is a member of a local authority, and is also working in a Government Department, is thereby rendered difficult in conscientiously carrying out the duties for which he has been elected; and will he take steps to ensure that where possible leave of absence should occasionally be given to employés to enable them to fulfil their responsibilities as members of a local authority?

A person who undertakes work in a Government Department necessarily accepts the conditions which the Government service imposes, and my right hon. Friend does not think it would be reasonable to suggest that those conditions should be specifically modified in the case of members of local authorities. The granting of special leave of absence to a member of the staff is a matter for the head of each Department to determine, subject to any directions which may be given by the Treasury.

Social Reforms

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of legislative action contemplated after the War in regard to many social problems, he will consider the possibility, either by the appointment of a small committee, or through his Department, of obtaining and putting in possession of Members of Parliament and others studying these questions evidence relating to certain special measures in which many of these said problems have been dealt with in foreign countries, as, for instance, venereal diseases in Austria, illegitimacy in Norway, the marriage laws in Sweden, the maintenance of the birth rate in Germany, and birth control in Holland, the effect of these being imperfectly understood in this country; and whether in any case a translation of such measures as may be deemed to be of importance can be placed at the disposal of Members of Parliament?

I agree with my hon. Friend that it is desirable that information on social questions such as he refers to should be made available in this country. The Intelligence Department of the Local Government Board is taking action in this direction and a report on measures touching infant welfare in Germany is at the moment in preparation. At the same time, both our sources of knowledge and our means of digesting and publishing it are much limited by the exigencies of war

Housing Accommodation

asked the Secretary to the Local Government Board if he can state the circumstances under which a new housing scheme has been sanctioned at Barrow-in-Furness; the principles laid down in providing such additional housing accommodation; and whether the same principles will be applied in other industrial areas where there is equal need for providing housing accommodation for war workers?

I have been asked to answer this question. In consequence of reports from the Ministry's officers showing a serious shortage of houses at Barrow, it was decided to erect 1,000 houses, 500 permanent and 500 semi-permanent. The principle on which such houses are being built is partly to meet the immediate need by the provision of semi-permanent houses which can be readily erected, and partly to provide permanent houses. In regard to the last part of my hon. Friend's question, the circumstances of separate districts differ so widely from one another that no general rule can be laid down, but every endeavour is being made to supply accommodation for war workers.

Munitions

Engineers and Moulders (Wages)

asked the Minister of Munitions if an Order has been issued requiring employers to forthwith pay an advance of 12½ per cent. in wages to fully qualified engineers and moulders engaged on time rates on munition work; whether the Ministry of Munitions refuse to pay an increase of prices for work in hand for which the price was fixed on the basis of the previous wage; whether this increase of wages applies also to the same class of workmen employed in the same establishment but not on Government work; and, if this is not so, will the Government give instructions for an all-round increase of wages to these workmen, so as to remove the sense of grievance and injustice which is felt by those to whom the wages advance has not been conceded?

The Order referred to has been issued, and any application made by contractors for a consequential revision of their contract prices is being dealt with in the same way as in the case of previous advances. Section 1 of the Munitions of War Act, 1917, under which the Order was made, confers no powers in respect of men not employed on or in connection with munitions work.

Ireland

asked the Minister of Munitions if he will see that all workmen engaged on work of national importance in Ireland, such as shipbuilding, ship repairs, and munition work, shall be paid the same rate of wages, bonuses, percentages, and any other emoluments paid for similar work on the Clyde or in any other part of Great Britain where similar work is done?

The rates of wages, bonuses, percentages, and other emoluments paid to workmen engaged on work of the class referred to in the question have always varied with the district in which the workmen are employed, whether in Great Britain or Ireland. Any suggested alteration of this custom would require careful investigation in each particular case.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why munition workers in Ireland should be paid less wages than men in England doing similar work?

There are men in some parts of England who are being paid less wages than men doing similar work in other parts.

Questions

Petrol Supply

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the scarcity of petrol and the waste of labour and petrol involved in motor vans running from probably every town in the United Kingdom, ruining roads and small shopkeepers, he will rigidly restrict the supply of petrol in such cases except where necessity can be shown?

As my right hon. Friend informed the hon. Member last Tuesday, the allowance of petrol for motor vans will be confined to the minimum necessary for essential trade.

Coal Supply

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that in the county of Durham men working at the surface of coal mines controlled by His Majesty's Government are in many cases only earning 6s. 1½d. per shift; whether in many cases these men are only getting about 27s. a week, including the war bonus recently granted, owing to the pits only working three shifts a week; and whether he will guarantee every man who works all the shifts open to him at a coal mine controlled by the State a minimum wage of 30s. at least?

I am aware of the fact that short time is being worked at some collieries in the county of Durham as well as at other districts which have hitherto been dependent on the export trade. For that reason the recently granted war wage of 1s. 6d. per day was made payable for days on which a colliery did not work owing to lack of trade. The Controller of Coal Mines is endeavouring to carry out a scheme of distribution of mine labour with a view to securing to all mine workers full time and in this respect is in negotiation with the Minister of National Service and the Ministers' Federation of Great Britain. I would also refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring yesterday.

Will the hon. Gentleman kindly answer the question whether, while short time is still being worked, the Department will guarantee that no man receives less than 30s. if he works all the shifts available?

If short time is being worked he will get the 1s. 6d. per day allowance.

Will the hon. Gentleman say "Yes" or "No," whether they will or will not guarantee this 30s., seeing that less than that is not enough for these men to live upon; and does he not recognise that they are practically Government servants?

The hon. Gentleman is surely aware that they have their trade union to fall back upon.

Is it right that the Government should expect them to fall back upon those resources?

Teachers' Salaries

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if any instalment of the new education Grant, known as the Fisher Grant, for increasing teachers' salaries has been paid to any local authorities; and, if not, has any money been paid to the teachers by any local authorities?

My hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The disbursement of the Grant by instalments began in September last and is being continued. A number of local education authorities have already begun to pay increased salaries, to the teachers in their employment.

New Member Sworn

Benjamin Tillett, esquire, for Borough of Salford (North Division).

Bill Presented

NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE BILL,—"to amend the Acts relating to National Health Insurance," presented by Sir EDWIN CORNWALL; supported by Mr. Barnes, Mr. Baldwin, and Mr. Pratt; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 97.]

Orders of the Day

Consolidated Fund (No. 5) Bill

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a third time."

Peace Settlement

I beg to move, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House is of opinion that, provided that satisfactory guarantees can be obtained with regard to the independence and restoration of Belgium and the evacuation of other occupied territory, no obstacle should be placed in the way of preliminaries towards negotiations for a peace settlement which ought to embody an equitable solution of the problem of Alsace-Lorraine, and the devising and enforcement of effective international machinery for the avoidance of future wars."

When this War first broke out, I, so far as I could, supported the Government in the action that they took at the time. If I were given evidence that it is necessary to continue the War in order to achieve the original object for which it was begun, I should still support the Government. I am not convinced that this is any longer the case. What I have noticed is that, as the War has proceeded, a series of agreements have been made, some public, some secret, but ultimately divulged, which have added one object after another to the original purpose of the War, till now, it seems to me, to have entirely departed from the character with which it was begun. Take some of the objects which have been publicly announced. When this War ends it is to be followed, not by peace, but by another war, by an economic war, and by the commercial strangulation of the Central Powers. Ministers have been making speeches about war aims. They are telling the people that after the War is over they wish to establish a League of Nations. The late Prime Minister has said over and over again that the object for which we are fighting is to secure a real European partnership. How can you establish a League of Nations, how can you create a real European partnership, upon a foundation of com- mercial boycott and economic war? When the war ends, let it end! Unless these proposals are abandoned, the war aims of this country are merely to sew the seed of the next war, because no nation will submit, nor ought it to submit, to being made the subject of a commercial boycott by the majority of the world. Take another case; take Turkey and Asia Minor. So far as I know the only British interests in that region of the world are to assure strategic security for Egypt and for the routes to India and the East. If we are to go beyond that, if we are to try and force in those regions that settlement which excludes any great European Power from activities there, then, it seems to me, that Asia Minor is likely to take the place of Africa as the breeding ground of future European wars. That is what the Government appear to be doing. There was an agreement to give Constantinople to Russia. Is it not, too, a fact that was followed by a further agreement that the French Empire was to include Syria? That a new Italian Empire was to be established in the Hinterland of Smyrna? That practically the whole of Asia Minor was to be carved up between Great Britain, Italy, France and Russia, to the exclusion of other European Powers? That is a policy which seems to me to be alien to the original purpose of the War, and if we succeeded in carrying it out I believe it would be fatal to the future peace of the world.

Take Italy. If the Allies were victorious, Italy was to have a part, or the whole, of Dalmatia, where only one-tenth of the inhabitants are Italians. Take Africa. There are problems with regard to South-West Africa, but there have been no proposals made to solve these problems by any reappointment of territory, or by any system of international control—simply proposals to dispossess Germany of her Colonies and to add a million square miles to the British Empire. As the War proceeds, new secret agreements are continually being divulged. May I speak about the latest agreement, which relates to a matter which I happen to have followed from the beginning? About four months ago I heard there were a good many rumours about—that there were secret agreements by which, if the Allies were victorious, Germany was to lose not only Alsace-Lorraine, but, in addition, whole tracts of other territory on the west bank of the Rhine, including the Valley of the Saar.

Let me continue my story. I say at the moment there were rumours of that agreement. Let me proceed. I asked questions about it in this House, and I was given a reassuring reply. Two months later, however, certain revelations which had been made at the Secret Session of the French Chamber were divulged to the world. As a consequence—I have here his statement —M. Ribot, at that time Foreign Secretary in France, publicly stated that this was true.

That there was an agreement? Absurd!

4.0 P.M.

There was an agreement that Germany was to lose those territories, in addition to Alsace-Lorraine, after this Battle of the Rhine.

May I read M. Ribot's own statement in the Chamber—not in Secret Session, but after the Secret Session—when he was challenged in the public session of the French Chamber on 31st July of this year? I will read the passage:

"The Chambers know how things happened."

I am reading the translation. [An HON. MEMBER: "What paper?"] This appeared in the "Times." I am reading this particular quotation from the "Manchester Guardian":

"M. Doumergue, after his conversations with the Czar, asked and obtained from M. Briand an authorisation to take note of the promises of the Czar to support our claim to Alsace-Lorraine, torn by violence from us, and to leave us free to seek guarantees against further aggression, not by annexing to France territories on the left bank of the Rhine, but by making, if need were, of these territories an autonomous State, protecting us, as well as Belgium, against invasion from beyond the "Rhine."

[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] That is what I said. I did not say that France was to have those territories. I said that Germany was to be deprived of them. What does this mean? I am really amazed at the Foreign Secretary's denial that this speech was ever made.

I understand the Foreign Secretary is going to speak. I shall be interested to hear how he is going to prove that M. Ribot's statement indicates that there was no such agreement. May I on this point refer to the fact that only ten days ago the new Foreign Minister of France, M. Barthou, stated that, in addition to Alsace-Lorraine, France had the right, and would, if she could, seek fresh guarantees, as he called them, on the left bank of the Rhine? This means that there is an agreement that if the Allies are victorious Germany is to lose, not only Alsace-Lorraine, but fresh tracts of territory on the left bank of the Rhine.

Really and truly the hon. Gentleman is going on to contradict the statement I have ventured to make across the floor of the House that there is not an agreement between France and us.

I say that this is an agreement between France and Russia—[An HON. MEMBER: "Czar of Russia!"]—an agreement which may have been made with the Czar of Russia originally, but an agreement which, after the Czar was deposed, M. Briand, and only ten days ago M. Barthou, reasserted again. It was an agreement between France and Russia, and if the right hon. Gentleman indicates that this was entirely unknown to him, then I can only say that it was very strange indeed that a matter which came to the notice of the ordinary Member of the House was unknown in the Foreign Office. I come back to what I said. This is an agreement which would mean that Germany would be deprived of the population of those provinces who are contented, who are prosperous, who have been German for generations in language, in sympathy, and in race, and whom to separate from Germany would be just as great an act of dismemberment as to cut off Cornwall from the United Kingdom. These are some of the reasons, it seems to me, that the War has altered from the character in which it began. What is it that we are now really fighting for? What are the real purposes of the War?

The more the secret agreements of the Foreign Office are divulged, the more bewildering it becomes to ascertain what the real purposes of the War now are. The Government tell the people that they are to go on and on with the War until our victory is complete. When we have got the victory, what is to happen then? All these secret agreements when they come into force, all these Imperialistic ambitions in Asia Minor, in Africa, in Dalmatia, in the Saar Valley, will then be fulfilled. What have all those things got to do with the defence of the weak against the strong, or the rights of small nations, or any single one of the objects for which the people entered the War? We all of us have a great many things to say about the folly and the wickedness of the Germans in 1870 over Alsace-Lorraine, but if those things mean that we in our hour of victory would do the same as Germany did in hers, and that we propose now—that France and Russia propose in their hour of victory to implant in the centre of Europe a new cause of discontent, discord, and hatred, then once again it would drench us in blood and war. What effect are these Imperialistic objects all over the world going to have upon the future of Europe? General Smuts, in a speech the other day, said that he thought the preparation for war Lad now developed to such a point that in a few years they would be able to destroy civilisation itself, and that our only hope was in a League of Nations. Ministers are continually saying the same thing. The late Prime Minister is always telling us that he wants a real European pact. I have read all those speeches, but I am bound to say that when Ministers tell us that they believe in a League of Nations they never seem to me to realise what the proposal involves.

What is the use of saying to the Central Empires, "We will exclude you from Africa; we will exclude you from Asia Minor; we will pen you in behind a tariff wall; we will, if our victory is sufficiently complete, deprive you of great tracts of territory on the west bank of the Rhine, and, when all this has been done, we will ask you to settle down with us into a League of Nations and to give the help of your military forces to perpetuate these arrangements"? I find it very difficult to know what to make of all the speeches which I read from the Ministers of the Crown. On the one hand, we are to dispossess Germany of every colony over the seas, and we are to add a 1,000,000 square miles to the British Empire; on the other hand, the Leader of the House tells us that we wish to secure no territory as a result of the War. On the one hand, the Allies are to ring Germany round with a hostile tariff war; on the other band, we are to aim at a real European pact. On the one hand, we are to exclude her from Africa, to exclude her from Asia Minor, to cut her off from the raw material of the world; on the other hand, the Foreign Minister himself said a week ago that he hoped no nation would emerge from this War with any grievance behind her. On the one hand, if we are victorious enough, we are going to deprive Germany of great tracts of territory on the west bank of the Rhine; on the other hand, we are told that it is quite an error to imagine we seek the dismemberment of the German Empire. I cannot see that there is any evidence of a coherent policy in all these speeches.

The Foreign Secretary, I gather, is going to reply. I have no doubt that he will say what he has said in, I think, each speech he has delivered on these topics during the last six months. He will say that he deprecates the discussion of these subjects. If this means that the Government are to carry on the War how it likes, to what purpose it likes, for as long as it likes, I do not see that their policy as revealed in their statements shows that they are justified in expecting us to make no criticism. Their policy, as indicated in their speeches, seems to me to be inconsistent, contradictory, and mutually self-destructive. Those who support this Resolution agree—and, I think I may say, very sincerely agree—that the only hope for the salvation of civilisation will lie in a League of Nations; but what we say is that if the Government genuinely accept the proposal for a League of Nations, then if is useless to do that unless you make up your minds to determine what the terms of peace should be. If we really want a settlement from which we can obtain a stable peace and a League of Nations, there is only one kind of settlement which I believe can do that. It is a settlement which abandons the Paris Conference resolutions, which abandons all these Imperialistic ideas in every part of the world, and a settlement which tries to solve the problem of Africa and Asia Minor by an international system in which every interested nation shall have a share; it is a settlement which says that if the object of the war is to destroy militarism, then the best way to do it is by a drastic and general reduction of armaments leading up to the universal abolition of conscription.

Last month the Government made a pronouncement which represents a very serious departure in their policy. The speeches of the Prime Minister and of the late Prime Minister, as they have been interpreted by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary in France, have put the Government in this position, that they now state that before any negotiations can be begun, even before they can be considered, we shall insist upon the restoration to France of the whole of Alsace-Lorraine, the French and German districts alike. Now, as far as I can make out, France and Germany have been disputing about Alsace-Lorraine since the time of Charlemagne. This territory has always been a kind of symbol of triumph on the one side and humiliation on the other. We want this matter settled once for all, but if all you are going to do is to take the people of these provinces and ignore the fact that they are German as well as French, if you make no attempt to ascertain what they themselves desire, but simply hand them about as a trophy from one country to another, and to create fresh, unredeemed territory, whatever else that may do, I do not see how all this is going to bring the final solution of this question any nearer than when the War began.

We want peace in Europe in the future, and I cannot see how you are going to get it unless this question is settled by a solution which both sides are willing to accept. There is only one solution which will do that, and it is a solution which no longer regards the people of those territories as the mere price of victory for the one side or the other. Whether it is by a plebiscite or by neutralisation, or by an agreed partnership, as regards the settlement of these territories is a question to be determined by the interests and desires of the people of these territories themselves. May I put to the Government one question on this point? Whenever we ask any questions about war aims, we are always told in reply that no statement can be made until all the Allies-have been consulted. Have our other Allies been consulted? Was Italy or Russia consulted before this pronouncement was made? This is a very serious departure up to the present in our war aims, for we said that the restoration of Belgium must come first, the evacuation of the occupied territories second, and after these questions have been settled we understood that questions like Alsace-Lorraine, Poland, the Trentino, and Trieste followed. Now, what has happened is that Alsace-Lorraine has been lifted from among all these other questions, and whatever else is negotiable, this must be settled before negotiations can be begun, and this question of Alsace-Lorraine is now to be put in a position parallel to Belgium itself.

Have Italy and Russia given their assent to this pronouncement? Have they been asked? Has Italy agreed that, the French claim to Alsace-Lorraine is a prior claim to the Italian claim to the Trentino, which is Italian to a man. Has Russia agreed that the French claim to Alsace-Lorraine is a prior claim to the Russian claim to Riga and Reval, without which she will be left without a single ice free port in Europe? Of course they have not agreed. The Government has allowed itself to be drawn into the exclusive diplomacy of one of the Allies without the consent or without consultation with the rest of our Allies. Everybody knows that the future relationships of Russia and Italy to the Alliance are full of difficulties and dangers, and I cannot see the purpose or the wisdom of choosing such a moment as this for France and Great Britain to form a group within the Allies to make pronouncements forcing into the forefront an issue about which it was not necessary at this stage to have made any special pronouncement at all.

This Amendment expresses our opposition to the Government policy on this question. If states that the evacuation of the occupied territory comes first, and that Alsace-Lorraine is a negotiable question. The policy which this Amendment asks the Government to accept is that they should say to the Germans, "We intend to secure the fulfilment of the original obligations of honour for which we entered the War, the restoration and the independence of Belgium, and the evacuation of other occupied territory, but after that all such further questions as Alsace-Lorraine, Poland, the Trentino, Trieste, the African Colonies, Asia Minor—all these questions are a proper subject for adjustment by negotiation. I have never really understood why there is such strong opposition to every proposal for a conference or negotiation. Let me give my reason. It has always seemed to me that at the worst, even if the negotiations break down, the position would be favourable to us. Suppose the negotiations do not succeed. They would, at any rate, have this one great result, that they would reveal to the whole world exactly what the points of difference between the two sides really are, and that would let the people of every country know precisely what they were fighting about. It seems to me that that would be a result favourable to every Power which has nothing to hide, and that it would be absolutely fatal to any Power which was fighting for objects which it was known their opponents would not agree to.

I cannot believe that at this stage of the War the people of any country would be willing to go on with all this slaughter, all this misery and broken hearts—I say this of every country engaged in it—unless they thought they were going into it for some honourable and necessary purpose. Take the case of Germany or Austria, where the desire for peace is more intense, apparently, than any country in Europe. If it is the case that Germany will not evacuate Belgium, let us make her reveal it to the world. At any rate bring her to the conference table, and let this fact be known to the people of Germany and to our Allies as well. I believe that if the negotiations broke down because Germany insisted on such a thing as this she would find it impossible to hold her own public opinion down, and she would almost certainly emerge from the conference without the Austrian Empire by her side. I believe that negotiations are necessary even though they fail to achieve their object. It seems to me to be the most urgent need of the world to-day that we should all of us find out what we are fighting about. Is it because Germany will not evacuate Belgium? In a conference it will be easy to find out. The Prime Minister does not think we can now make a satisfactory peace by negotiation, but he will be able to find out by a conference. He says, "Go on with the fighting"—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—and, meanwhile, get round the table and find out. Are we to go on with the War, deliberately slaughtering tens of thousands of our fellow countrymen, without trying to find out? That seems to me to be a crime against which we record our protest in this House.

In rising to second this Motion I desire to say that there are a good many of us who very much regret that we are forced to take this opportunity of doing so. We would much rather have had a separate day given us for the discussion of this important subject. Inasmuch as the Government cannot, or will not, give a separate day for discussing this topic, we are bound to take advantage of the opportunities which present themselves. We think that it is absolutely necessary in the interests of a democratic peace, when it comes, that the country should be informed as much as possible of the progress that is being made in the direction of peace. We think, therefore, that we are fully justified in taking every opportunity that presents itself to put our case before the House of Commons.

I think there are a good many misconceptions about the views that I and my Friends belonging to the group with which I am associated hold in this matter. We are not a peace-at-any-price group. We do not ask for peace at any price. We hold quite as strongly as any other Members that there are certain things which are essential preliminaries before any peace is possible. We believe that the objects of the War, the original objects, ought and must be obtained before we can accept peace. Those objects, so far as I understand them, and so far as I understood them in the past, were, first of all, the restoration, the independence, and the evacuation of Belgium. By independence I mean complete independence—independence in every sense of the word, independence not only from Germany but from France and this country as well. Belgium must be restored and must be made independent. We are all agreed about that. We are also agreed that Northern France, the territory of our Allies, must also be freed from the invader. But what we are afraid of is that these objects are being exceeded, that we are now not merely fighting the battle of small nationalities, not merely fighting to get Belgium her complete independence again, not merely fighting in order that treaty rights in the future may be observed, not merely fighting in order that Prussian militarism may be abolished, but that we are fighting for something else as well. We are fighting for things which I can only describe as Imperialism, and we are fighting in order, amongst other things, to restore Alsace-Lorraine to France. So long as a sufficient distinction is made I have no objection to these and other questions being set up as questions which must come up for discussion at the Peace Conference. Of course they must. Nobody supposes that the question of Alsace-Lorraine, for instance, can be left where it is; but what we are arguing at the present time is that the question of Alsace-Lorraine, and some of the other questions which I shall refer to later, ought not to be made the preliminaries of peace. Of course they should come up at the Peace Conference, and be discussed and decided there, because they are matters for negotiation; but when you are talking of preliminaries of peace, the things which it is absolutely essential you should have before even you will talk about peace, then you are only justified in putting forward the things which you originally claimed that you went to war about—the restoration, the evacuation, and the independence of Belgium, and the rights, if you like, of small nationalities.

If I take to-day the question of Alsace-Lorraine, I want it to be understood that I am only doing so because this Alsace-Lorraine problem has been brought into considerable prominence of late. The Prime Minister only the other day said concessions. On the other hand, we have had French Ministers replying in an equally emphatic way. When we get our own Ministers making these statements we want to know where we are, and we want to know definitely whether the obtaining of peace depends upon Alsace-Lorraine or not. There is a feeling in the country, a strong feeling, among a great many people that the problem of Alsace-Lorraine stands between us and peace at the present time. Therefore we are entitled to ask the question whether that is so or not, and whether this Alsace-Lorraine problem is a problem of peace negotiations or whether it is merely one of the things which will properly come up with the Trentino, with the settlement of the Balkans, with Poland and with the other questions at the Peace Conference, to be settled there. Does the House really realise what Alsace-Lorraine is? Does it realise that Alsace-Lorraine is smaller than Yorkshire, that the whole area of Alsace-Lorraine is only 5,604 square miles, whereas the area of Yorkshire is 6,000 square miles? Does it realise that Alsace-Lorraine is only the size of the two Scottish counties of Argyle and Aberdeen; or, if you want an Irish parallel, that it is about the size of the counties of Kerry and Cork put together? Does the House realise that the whole population of Alsace-Lorraine before the War was 1.800,000, whereas the population of Yorkshire is 3,554,000? Does it realise that Alsace-Lorraine is not homogeneous in character and that it has not a united history? It has not the history of a single people. Parts of it, nobody would dispute, are strongly French, but, on the other hand, parts are strongly German to-day in sentiment.

Nobody will say for a moment that it would be an equitable thing to treat Mulhausen and Strassburg on the same level. Mulhausen from 1525 to 1789 was part of the Swiss Confederation, and came to France of its own free will and by the vote of its people, and is passionately French to-day. You cannot compare for a moment Mulhausen with Strassburg, which was filched deliberately from Germany by Louis XIV. in defiance of all treaty rights, and which to-day I venture to say, in sentiment at all events, is strongly German, almost as German as Cologne or Frankfort. You cannot say that it would be an equitable thing to treat the Saar Valley on the same basis as Western Lorraine. The Saar Valley and the east of it is strongly German in sentiment, while Western Lorraine and Metz are strongly French. You cannot treat the whole of Alsace-Lorraine as a single unit, and if anybody thinks that we are going to settle this question by handing over Alsace-Lorraine to France or leaving it to Germany, treating it as a sort of prize for the successful competitor, then they are simply laying up for this country and for the world trouble for the future, which may possibly exceed even the magnitude of this great struggle. Therefore we say, that while we are quite prepared to hold that certain things, namely, the restoration and independence of Belgium and the restoration of Northern France should be treated as preliminaries to peace negotiations, that this question of Alsace-Lorraine is essentially one which ought to be decided at the Peace Conference. You ought to meet round the table and argue the thing out and come to some equitable decision which will decide the lot of the country of Alsace-Lorraine in accordance with the wishes of the people.

When we come to consider the casualties in this War we do not know exactly what they are, because the Government, for certain reasons—very good reasons, I have no doubt—have declined to give us the exact figures. It is estimated that our total casualties in this country alone must be something like 1,800,000. We know, at, all events, that the casualties of officers alone are at an average rate of 130 to 140 per day. We see that the flower of our nation and the youth of the nation is being stamped out, being killed off. When you get to finance, of course, it is a small matter compared with human life, but we cannot afford to ignore it. The National Debt is mounting up. At the end of the present financial year the National Debt will not be very far short of £6,000,000,000, and if the War goes on for another year he would be a very bold man who would venture to say that it will not exceed £8,000,000,000—probably more. Prices have gone up over 100 per cent., and if the War is prolonged there is bound to be a great scarcity next year, possibly, famine. Are we to be told that all this Buffering and all this terrible ordeal which the country is going through is to be imposed upon our people merely in order to get Alsace-Lorraine for France? Our people hitherto have cheeffully borne all the sufferings, and they have been sufferings to a good many of them, which have been brought upon them because they believed we were fighting for great and eternal principles. I want to ask in all seriousness whether, if that is so, this Alsace-Lorraine problem is to be made preliminary to a peace conference or to-be a subject which may be left to the peace conference to discuss?

And here I think I must say one word on what I can only characterise as something very much like a quibble. We have heard a good deal of late about disannexation. I want to know what disannexation really means. If you are going to say you, propose to disannex Alsace-Lorraine you might just as well say you are going to disannex every conquest made by every nation during the last 250 years. You cannot use the word with any fairness or equity or without laying yourselves open to a charge of quibbling. The War is costing us rather over £6,000,000 a day. Two months of our own war expenditure and about ten days of the whole expenditure of all the belligerents in this War would buy up the whole of Alsace-Lorraine, houses, lands, and mines, and leave a handsome margin into the bargain.

It is not a question of selling patriotism; it is a question o£ avoiding useless bloodshed. I was very much struck the other day by the figures which the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave as to the state of German finance at the present time. He told us that the German Votes of Credit up to the present amounted to £4,700,000,000. He also told us that the Germans had not even paid the cost of their debt charges out of increased taxation. He compared the position of Germany with that of this country from the financial point of view. He said, or at all events he left us with the impression—he left me with a very strong impression—that even if the War ended to-day the result would be to leave Germany practically bankrupt. If that is so, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer's figures are correct, as I believe they are—I have not the slightest doubt about them—what is the lesson to be drawn from it? Surely one lesson, at all events, is this: that if the War ended to-day Germany would be so crippled that she would be at least for a generation unable to contemplate another war. But I would put it on another ground. Assuming that we got a crushing victory in the field, would that be likely to bring about friendlier or more reasonable feelings on the part of Germany? What does history show? Take 1870. Was there ever a more crushing defeat than the French suffered in that year? Did it settle matters? Did it prevent a revanche spirit? Did it settle the question of Alsace-Lorraine? Take, too, the Napoleonic Wars. I suppose there never was a country, except France in 1870, more crushed than Prussia was by Napoleon. Yet after six years the Prussians were in Paris. It does not matter how decisive a victory may be, unless you bring moderation to bear in your terms of peace the result must be further disturbance, further disorder and further revanche feelings in the future.

I think perhaps there is another lesson that we may draw from the financial position of Germany. I saw in a paper the other day—I think it was the "Westminster Gazette"—it has never been contradicted and, therefore, I am bound to take it as to some extent at all events likely—[a laugh]—I put it mildly on purpose—I saw in the "Westminster Gazette" the other day that an agreement had been arrived at between Denmark and Germany by which, for a sum of something like five million pounds, the disputed territory of Northern Schleswig, part of which Prussia conquered in 1864, is to be restored to Denmark. That shows that the Germans, at all events, seem to have come to an agreement by which, instead of fighting, they are prepared to settle these matters by purchase. [An HON. MEMBER: "Cash down?"] That territory was conquered by Prussia in 1864. Was not Northern Schleswig just as much "a glorious inheritance"—to use von Kuhlmann's expression—of the Germans as Alsace-Lorraine? Are you quite sure that if, when you come to a peace conference you make a proposition on similar lines to Germany she would not be prepared to do something in the nature of a deal? With regard to the French-speaking districts of Alsace-Lorraine, at all events, it is worth trying. But apart from that, I am quite aware that there are many people who think that the question of Alsace-Lorraine ought not properly to be disposed of or settled in such a way. Some people think that an autonomous State should be created, and if the people of Alsace-Lorrainedesire to be made into an autonomous State I do not see why anybody should object. It has been tried before in the Thirty Years' War, when a large part of Alsace was made a separate State. I very much doubt myself whether, even if Alsace-Lorraine could be created into an autonomous State, the people of Alsace-Lorraine would desire such a settlement. Those who are French in sentiment are too passionately French, and those who are German in sentiment are too passionately German. But the point I really want to argue in this matter is this: I want to say, "Do not, for Heaven's sake, treat this question of Alsace-Lorraine as a preliminary to peace negotiations, but let it be decided at the Peace Conference. Do not go about publishing that before you will listen to terms Germany must do this, that, or the other. Do not increase your demands—your preliminary demands—because, if you do, in that way you are going to make a Peace Conference almost impossible.

Some people no doubt would be glad to find a Peace Conference at the present time rendered impossible. But peace has got to come some time or other, and remembr this: That every day that passes, every hour that elapses, means so many of our own gallant men killed or mutilated or injured in some way or other. I do say, most seriously and most earnestly, that this House ought to lose no opportunity and take every chance that offers to try, if it can, to do something to bring this horrible War to a close. Let me revert for a moment to the question of Alsace-Lorraine. I dare say I shall be told that the problem of Alsace-Lorraine is really an economic one. I know perfectly well that 80 per cent. of Germany's iron comes from Western Lorraine. I know there are great economic difficulties in giving up Western Lorraine to France, but I believe that if we can adopt the policy of the Open Door, if we can establish something in the nature of a League of Nations, we shall get over nine tenths, if not all, of the difficulties which at the present time seem so insurmountable. But we must remember it is of no use attempting to approach this question of peace unless you are prepared to deal fairly and justly and impartially by all parties to the bargain. A League of Nations can be no success—it cannot even be begun, it can hardly be thought of—unless you are going to have all the nations of Europe parties to it. If Germany were excluded, or if Germany were not welcomed into it with open arms [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!" and "Never!"] Yes, I say, with open arms—[An HON. MEMBER: "Remember the Lusitania!"]—if you are going to have a League of Nations you must make up your minds that Germany as well as ourselves—[HON. MEMBERS: "Never!"]— must be welcomed.

Because, unless you do, you are merely perpetuating the old trouble of two great armed camps in Europe. You will have that trouble all over again. The whole basis of the League of Nations, the absolute foundation of it, must be that all nations are party to it. I do most earnestly ask the House not to be carried away by these raw passions, which I know are natural. Do not let us be carried away by our passions at the present time and take a view which I think is more likely to militate against the future peace of the world, and which most certainly cannot possibly assist towards ending this terrible War.

I would not have trespassed on the time of the House this afternoon if it were not for the fact that this Motion was moved by my colleague in the representation of Northampton. I wish to express to him the great personal regret which I feel that he should have thought it necessary to bring forward a Motion of this kind at this time, and to tell him, what he knows well already, that that regret is shared by the whole of his constitutents. In times of peace private Members of the House, like my hon. colleague and myself, are people of very small importance; but in times of war things may be altered, and I cannot help regretting when I consider that even now, under all the oceans of the world, the news is going forth that this afternoon a British Member of Parliament has risen in the British House of Commons to attack the Government with regard to their policy in the prosecution of the War and to urge that upon such terms being granted as the evacuation of Belgium and the territories at present in the occupation of the German armies this country and its Allies should now treat for peace. The hon. Member my colleague and the hon. Member who seconded his Motion referred more than once to the original objects for which this War was begun. They seemed to-day to have developed some enthusiasm for those original objects—an enthusiasm which was not marked at an earlier stage.

May I point out to the hon. Member that his colleague (Mr. Lees Smith) went to the front, and that I at all events took part in a great many recruiting meetings.

If the interruption of the hon. Member were relevant to anything I have said I would apologise or withdraw, whichever might be more suitable. The original objects to which both the hon. Members referred related to the evacuation of Belgium, and when I referred to the fact that the invasion of Belgium did not excite such a passionate resentment on their part at an earlier date I think I am only stating what is a matter of public knowledge. Do the hon. Members really suppose that as an assembly of business people we are going to confine our attention to what were the original objects of the War? They have learned nothing. They urge upon this House and upon the Government that if only the occupied territories were to be evacuated something would have happened which would justify us in entering into peace negotiations. I venture to suggest that the evacuation of Belgium and the evacuation of the occupied territories, dear as those objects are to our hearts, are now matters of minor importance. The question now is not, Should Belgium be restored, but how and where to ensure that Belgium will not have to be restored again? We read in the Scriptures of the house from which the unclean spirit had departed, and after it was swept and garnished he took to himself seven other spirits worse than the first, and the end of that house was worse than the beginning. It is no amusement to sweep the Germans out of Belgium and to restore Louvain if the baneful system is to remain in Europe under which at any moment Germany may again break her pledges and enter afresh into the house which has been swept and garnished.

My Constituents, like myself, are not sufficiently equipped in the intricacies of foreign diplomacy and in the remote history of the European tribes for me to be able profitably to attempt to follow some of the matters into which hon. Members have travelled. I have gone a good deal amongst my Constituents since the War began. They are, like all the people of this country, very ignorant on many matters which arise in this War. If my colleagues would only visit them, perhaps their ignorance might be to some extent alleviated. I hardly yet know what the difference is between a Czecho-Slovak and a Jugo-Slav, but there are some things which the people of this country understand quite well. They understand the Ten Commandments, they realise the difference between a country such as England where from childhood they were taught, "Thou shalt not kill," "Thou shalt not steal," "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods," and a country like Prussia where for the last forty years kings and statesmen and poets and philosophers and schoolmasters, down to the schoolmasters of the infant schools, have been teaching the children "Thou shalt kill" as the first commandment, "Thou shalt steal" as the rule by which a State can grow great, and "Thou shalt covet thy neighbour's goods" as simple patriotism, pan-Germanism, call it what you like. What the people of this country want to see is not only Belgium restored but the Ten Commandments restored. We want to restore those tablets of stone upon which the laws of European order, the very laws of humanity, were written, and which have been broken by Germany in this War. We must teach the rulers of Germany and all other war lords that "Thou shalt not kill," "Thou shalt not steal," are matters which are just as applicable to the relations of nations in the future as to the relations of individuals.

My colleague asked this question. "What are we fighting for?" I think I can answer him in a sentence. So far as the people of this country are concerned—I speak with no knowledge of what the views of this Government or other Governments may be; I speak simply as one who has in the last few months addressed many thousands of working men on the subject of our war aims—I say that what we are fighting this war for to-day is to disestablish war for the salvation of Europe. What the Hohenzollerns are fighting this war for to-day is to maintain their militarism, to maintain their autocracy, to maintain the Prussian military machine in being available, when future time or opportunity may serve, for the salvation of the Hohenzollerns. The hon. Members talk all the time as though they had gone to sleep in July, 1914, and had never woken up again. Everything they say, every argument addressed to this House by the two hon. Members who preceded me, rests on this assumption, that if you can make some agreement of this kind or that with regard to the evacuation of this territory or the rectification of that frontier then matters can be restored to the status quo, and we can all meet round the board and go on as we went before. I venture to suggest that the one thing that is quite impossible is that after this War matters can never go on again as they did before. When this War commenced I for one shared the belief—what I suppose was a very general belief—that it might well be that in a few months the War would be over, the diplomatists would meet round a green table, and that we should all be voting and budgetting for armies and navies in the same old way, preparing once more for a war which, while we hoped it would never come to pass, we were bound to insure against.

I venture to suggest that one great new fact has emerged in the course of this last three years, unsuspected by any of us three years ago, which makes that impossible. And that is the unexpected but tremendous increase in the cost of war. Before this War started Europe was spending nearly £400,000,000 a year on armies and navies, and we know now that that £400,000,000 was a paltry sum, wholly insufficient to put us into a state of adequate preparation for modern war, as we now realise what modern war is. If the suggestions put forward by people who think, as the hon. Member who moved this Motion thinks, and I know honestly and sincerely thinks, were listened to, what would be the result? We would make some sort of a patched-up peace, the essence of which must be that it leaves the Hohenzollerns the dictators of millions in Central Europe, leaves them in control of arms and armaments, leaves them in the position at some future date to commence another war—however we may trust their professions, and whatever reliance may be placed upon their agreements—and places upon all their neighbours the necessity of preparing against that contingency. The cost of preparation is such that the working classes of Europe would have nothing to look forward to except working overtime for the rest of their lives to pay the cost of preparing for the next war.

So far as the plain man in the street is concerned, there is one obstacle to peace at the present time, an obstacle which it would be mere folly to lose sight of or to ignore—that is, the fact that in Central Europe the men who made this War, who planned this War, who for forty years preached this War and who have conducted this War with a disregard, not merely of all the rules which were supposed to govern the conduct of war among civilised nations, but of all those unwritten laws of humanity which have always distinguished man from the brute —these men are still in power and, to all appearances, are as firmly seated in power to-day as when the War began. So far as the plain man in the street is concerned, when you talk to him of peace by negotiation and suggest that he should meet across a green cloth pirates, murderers, ravishers of women, and men whose political creed is that an agreement must bind them no longer than it suits their purpose, you are talking of something which the man in the street does not understand. Thank God the people of this country are too stupid, too stolid, to follow the subtle reasoning which leads my hon. Friends to such strange conclusions which they press upon the attention of this House, but they are a long enduring people! It took us twenty years to conquer Napoleon. I do not believe it is going to take us twenty years to conquer the Hohenzollerns, but, if it is, the people of this country will go on until the job is done.

I cannot pretend to follow the hon. Member who has just addressed the House. A Debate in the House of Commons is not, as a rule, an occasion when emotion is the only thing to which to appeal. The hon. Member has given us a very typical peroration of a war aims speech. With that I leave it to the House and those who heard the hon. Member to judge of the contribution he has made to the very serious situation in which Europe finds itself to-day. He has told us that he is prepared to fight a twenty years' war, and he has confessed that at the end of the third year he is no nearer the end than he was at the beginning. He said it was started for the purpose of dethroning the Hohenzollerns. We tells us to-day, at the end of the third year, that the Hohenzollerns are more firmly fixed on their throne than they were at the beginning. I quite agree with him. The methods he has adopted are responsible for the unfortunate circumstances which he has just described He tells us that he is going to disestablish war. I quite agree with him. That is his intention; that is our intention; that is the intention of every person in this country— they are going to disestablish war. May I remind him and the House that it is not enough for him to get up in this House and say, "I propose to disestablish war?" There is such a thing as history, there is such a thing as experience, which is as a road that has been pointed out to us as the way to disestablish war. The line the hon. Member has taken has not been to disestablish war, but to fix war as an inheritance upon our children and upon our children's children. If I am wrong, then I err not because I have indulged in emotion here or have come here to make grand speeches about sending other people to do devils' and fiends' work, but because my reading of history has misled me. The hon. Member surely must know that this country has never lacked victory, whether it was a six months' war, a ten years' war, or a twenty years' war. He must also know that this country has never made a patched-up peace or a military truce at the end of its victory. He must know that the British Army has never failed in its valour or in its success; that the men whom we thanked the other day in the fulness of our hearts, who have been an example to us not only in their bravery, but in their good humour, honesty, and desire to seek the truth in all its aspects, have never failed their country and never failed their Cabinets. The failure that has taken place has been with those who sit on the Government Bench, and with the diplomatists who went to the conference after the war was over and after the victory had been secured. It does not become us to-day to go back to the ten tables of stone and to the Ten Commandments, and to talk of no further contribution to the problem that is before us. Let us write upon our history:

"Thou shalt not steal"

Let us add, "And we have not stolen." Let us say here:

"Thou shalt not steal,"

and then go beyond that and adopt the Russian formula," No annexations and no indemnities." That is what we do. That is our position. There is nothing new in what the hon. Member has said. He has only kept to the clouds while we have been translating the beauties of his cloudy speeches.

Punishment? Certainly. The whole of these accusations which are made on both sides should be submitted to a tribunal where they will have punishment meted out to them. I am not one of those who would silently let crimes go unpunished. I hope they will not go unpunished. I hope they will be punished. Moreover, the hon. Member says that things after the War will not be as they were before. I agree; they cannot and they will not. There will be a democratic control after the War. It is a wholly special aspect of the problem of war and peace to-day that now you have a satisfied public opinion. The hon. Member says it is stupid. He says that he has been present at a good many meetings. He must have formed his own opinion of what the public opinion was to which he was going to appeal. I say it is not stupid. Public opinion is enlightened. It has a good firm grip upon the verities It may be emotional; it may be swept by storm; it may be for the moment wrong— it has been wrong before—but on the whole public opinion will verge round to the middle road. Then we shall see who is there when it is all over, and reason begins to play upon the problem. The reason why we have put down this Amendment is precisely because we agree with the hon. Member that, after the War is over, things will not be as they were before, and that the chief characteristic of the change will be the democratisarion of the whole of the European Governments. What do we want by the Amendment? The Amendment is a very simple one. There is no equivocation about it. We want the Government to define its aims. We want it to make its conception of the conditions under which it is prepared to negotiate clear to itself, to the country, and to the whole of Europe. We do not want it to drift. We do not want it to extend its aims when it appears to be winning and diminish them when it becomes depressed and appears to be losing—that is all. We want the Government to make it perfectly clear to the Allies with whom it is co-operating, and to the enemy with whom it is fighting, that we have a definite war aim, and that the success or failure of the War will depend upon how far that war aim can be carried out. That is all that the Amendment asks. It gives the main pointers of that intention.

The country is threatened by two dangers. The first is that it may make peace on account of war weariness. Nothing could be more fatal than that peace should be made because this country is war weary. That means you will not attain your object at all. A man who runs a race to attain a prize and who sits down on the course half way to the goal has not only lost, he has lost very badly. This country must not be allowed to make peace on account of war weariness. There is another danger when a country goes in for war—as the hon. Member pointed out, without quite realising the implication of his argument— it finds that the mists gather about it, that passion grows, that new objects come in the way, that needy Allies bring pressure to bear upon it, that aims it never dreamt of and never would have dreamt of during the first six months of the War begin to be pressed upon it, and, almost unconsciously and without knowing what it is doing, it accepts them. A country at war runs the grave danger of losing the sense of its direction. In carrying on the War it loses itself in the contest. That must be prevented if we can possibly prevent it. What is going to prevent it? There is only one thing, that the country should lay down quite clearly what its war aims are and make those war aims real war aims and not peace aims, stick to them and stand by them. Then there will be no war weariness, because your people will go to the goal. Then there will be no losing of the way, because those aims will always be enlightening your path and showing precisely what the goal is and where it is. May I illustrate what I mean by what took place in the French Chamber last month? Two Ministers in the French Chamber, both of them colleagues, defined the French war aims. The first was the present Prime Minister, M. Painléve. I have not the exact quotation from his speech but this is the gist of it. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will not challenge it. M. Painlevé said on 9th October—I tried to get the quotation, but the expansiveness of the French mind is sometimes very baffling to one who wants a quotation—that the French war aims did not depend upon the result of the War, but were definite and apart from the success or otherwise of the French forces. That is M. Painlevé's position, and those who know him know that that is his position. On 25th October the new Foreign Minister, M. Barthou, said that France would not lay down her war aims, because everything was to depend upon the military situation. He said, "We ask Alsace Lorraine, but we will take further guarantees"; and he left it vague in that way. Those two declarations are violently opposed to each other. I do not stand alone in my belief, and I am going to quote the "Bataille," the official journal of the French trade unions, on 26th October:

The other is this, that war is a part of a political policy, that war only arises when the ordinary operations of the political machines cease. They close their ears. You say, "Very well, if you will not listen and will not bargain, and will not meet us, we shall have to fight you." If that is the proper view of wars, the political fact of war is the aim of war, and when the political attainments are reached by the country that wants them, that country has got its victory. If you subordinate war, as everyone has done, to a political end, and do not ask your war to produce greater results that any war possibly can, that is the great mistake of the hon. Member who preceded me. The mistake is to assume that war itself is the liberator, whereas, if you go on that way, you simply fight and fight and fight: your only issue is a military one, and your peace is a military truce. You finish your war, and immediately you get your rest, which is necessary after the war, you begin to consider how you are going to carry on this scheme. That is the position of the hon. Member (Mr. McCurdy), and that is the spirit of the speech which he made. I take fundamentally the opposite view. I say the political end is the end of war, and that the business of a Cabinet is not to go careering about the country making recruiting speeches and saying," Go and fight, go and fight, go and fight." That is done by the War Office. The business of a Cabinet is to see to it that they are supplementing by their brains the magnificent physical efforts produced by the men we have put into the field. If that is sound, our Resolution is sound. If I am right, this sort of carte blanche , where the Cabinet is going on adding this, taking away that, announcing Constantinople one day, taking it away a month hence, announcing Alsace-Lorraine without warning, and so on, that is all wrong. That is making war an absolutely ineffective weapon in the hands of the politician. That is making war a weapon in the hands of a military class which has no political view. I do not blame them. It has a specialised function to perform in the State, and a War Cabinet that allows that military class to dictate to the country its politics allows it to dictate to Europe its future condition and existence.

Someone has been sneering at us for going back upon our original war aims. Our original war aims raised millions of men to the Colours, and kept them pure. They held up a white flag of idealism before our people that made them accept the War with a whole-heartedness that nothing else would have done. Why are they sneered at to-day and told that they have become of minor importance? The hon. Member referred to the Debate being wired under the seas to all the ends of the earth, forgetting that this is about the only Chamber in the whole of Europe where these Debates are so rare. One would hope, at any rate, that no malicious agency is putting those wires into operation and telling the whole world that, in the opinion of some Members of this House, the liberation of Belgium has become of minor importance as far as the Allies are concerned. My hon. Friend will no doubt remember that when he comes to meet the hon. Gentleman and to explain the patriotism of the hon. Gentleman to his own constituents. What were those original objects? Belgium. Yes, Belgium must be liberated. There can be no peace in Europe if the independence of Belgium is in doubt for one single moment. Let there be no mistake about it. That is not all. The Cabinet ought to make a declaration that the apparent gains which the exercise of brute force have given cannot remain in the possession of those who exercised that brute force. That is not all. We had another aim when we went into this War. At any rate it appeared very early on. It did not put Belgium in the second place. We want a guarantee in future that this sort of thing is not going to happen again, and we want that guarantee to be a good one. What is that guarantee? I think it is double. First of all, we must get democracy established in the important Powers of Europe. The internal government of those powers must be of such a nature as to give a democratic country some guarantee that its democratic feelings are sympathetically received and listened to in the capitals of those great Powers If the Government would declare those aims we all know precisely where we are, what we are fighting for, and what we are driving at, and it is just as important that the enemy should know it as that we ourselves should know it.

Do I understand that when the hon. Member uses the term "our original war aims" he means his original war aims or the war aims of the Government, because I understand he has written a pamphlet denouncing the war aims of Lord Grey?

The right hon. Gentleman is, as usual, misinformed. I have written criticising the foreign policy of Lord Grey, but that is a somewhat different thing from criticising the war aims of the Government of the time. The war aims of the Government, in so far as they were the liberation of Belgium and the securing of guarantees, have been war aims which have been dearer to the Socialist heart of this country than to Liberals, or Tories, or any other political section. So far as Alsace-Lorraine is concerned, talking of war aims and the widening of those war aims, I leave it very much in the hands of my hon. Friends who preceded me with just this one contribution: Alsace-Lorraine is no longer a French question. It is a European question, and it is just possible for us, with the very best intentions, and with the desire to show that homage to France which France deserves and that generosity to France which France has earned, to offer her a gift which is in the form of a poison cup. France taking back Alsace-Lorraine without agreement and simply at the point of the sword hands across the line to Berlin the same unhappy feeling that Berlin handed across to France in 1871. Then the friends of France to-day will be looked upon by the France, of the next generation as being anything but a friend. If Alsace-Lorraine is a European problem, as both my hon. Friends admit and as everyone who has been in Alsace-Lorraine knows from conversations with people there, and a problem upon the perfect settlement of which European peace is going to depend, and if it is simply going to be settled in two war aim combinations handed over by the exercise of force and nothing more, then I am afraid we are not a friend of France and we are certainly not the defender of European liberty. It fills one with trouble that things that appear to be so simple cannot be settled in a simple way. There you have these two races, different in religion, different in capacity, different in outlook, different in orientation in every way, thrown into the middle of Europe in this devilish sort of way as though an imp of another region had simply done it in order to make peace impossible. The only contribution that I can make is to say that I hope that it is going to be kept an open door yet. Will the House please remember that the French Socialists have declared them selves in favour of a plebiscite. It may be unsatisfactory and difficult to arrange, but the French Socialists' suggestion is that a league of nations might arrange it. When we are up against a problem like this, men of good will will try a thousand ways before they begin to bang doors, knowing that a mere settlement by force is no settlement at all.

There is one more point to which I wish to draw the attention of the House and with the general statement of which I am perfectly certain that no hon. Gentleman, whatever views he may have, will disagree. We want a democracy in Germany. I would strive simply with might and main, go to almost any length and use every ounce of influence that I have got, in order not only to demand, but to see that they get the power to govern themselves. So long as Germany remains as it is—the people cut away from their own Government and their Government an impediment and an embattled form of organised force—it is a menace to Europe, even with the very best intentions on the part of the German people. How are you going to bring the light of the French Revolution and still later of the Russian Revolution into Berlin and give Germany democratic self-government? That is a political problem, and, with all deference and respect, this Government has made a perfect muddle of that problem. The Russian Revolution gave them a magnificent chance. They did not take it. They never saw the significance of the Russian Revolution from the point of view of getting those changes which meant a political gain in this War. They did not see the Russian Revolution coming, and when it did come they did not understand it. They imagined that the Russian Revolution was simply a change in the military organisation of Russia. Forcing new Russia on to these lines, they missed the political and moral significance of the self-liberation of the Russian people. We know now that there was a mutiny in the German navy. More things than that happened in Germany as the result of the Russian Revolution I cannot help feeling that our War Cabinet is very largely responsible for what happened. Take the struggle that is going on just now with the Reichstag. It is all very well to sneer at the Reichstag Resolutions, as was done in the last Debate that we had on this subject. That is not helping the Reichstag. That is not showing statesmanship to liberate Germany. Since that time Chancellors have fallen and new Chancellors have taken their place. More than that, a political organisation has taken root in Germany which in the end will make it perfectly certain that the authority of the Reichstag will be equal to the authority of this House of Commons. It is the duty of our Government to support it. They have done nothing of the kind. May I make another quotation? These quotations do not come here very accurately. I have taken this from a French newspaper. In order to find out what takes place on the Continent—it is very said!—one has to subscribe very liberally to French newspapers. One of the great leaders of the German Social Democrats, Daird, who unfortunately belongs to the Majority, and has very great power and influence among German Socialists, at the conference that was held at Wurzburg the other day—hardly a line of which got into the English Press, although some of the most important questions were discussed at great length and voted upon—said this with reference to be democracy of Germany: unfortunate thing which has happened since the War began for the democratic movement in Germany.

I sum up thus. We ought to state once again our aims, and we ought to clearly draw a line of distinction between war aims and peace aims. We must not include in our war programme all the liberations that as democrats we would like to see in Europe. We must make it perfectly clear that at a peace conference we are to stand for liberation, but that the liberation which is our war aim is only that liberation which has been taken away since the War started. We ought to declare our immediate allegiance to the League of Nations, and we ought to define the spirit of the League of Nations in a liberal way. We want no more Holy alliances in the shape of a league of nations. This League of Nations ought not to be and must not be a league of the governments of nations. It must be a league of the democratic organisations of Parliaments and be representative of the public opinion of nations. We ought at once to allow representatives of the great unofficial social organisations of the countries to meet and discuss and to reveal to each other the state of mind, truly and honourably and accurately, of the various peoples. I see, for instance, that the Bishop of Southwark has issued invitations to a conference of the Churches. I hope that the War Cabinet will not oppose it. They allowed Catholics to go to Granada the other day, and I am glad of it. The more of that sort of thing the better for everybody concerned. You need not be afraid of anything. There is not a single person who holds a responsible position in this country that would entitle him to be sent as a delegate or representative to one of those conferences but is simply overwhelmed with the sense of responsibility that is attached to such a position. Therefore, let the Government open the door. Let them allow those unofficial discussions at conferences. They are all to the good of Europe, and to the establishment of peace. If they would do that a great many of the walls we are now battering at with precious lives would disappear as if by magic, and the heaven we are trying to assail by force would be discovered to be around them all the time.

6.0 P.M.

As the house Knows, I am personally of opinion that discussions, however interesting in themselves, like that to which we have been listening this afternoon, do little to assist the object which those who start them have in view, the object, namely, of obtaining an honourable peace at the earliest possible date. But whether this discussion is wise or unwise, we have no power to interfere with it, and as it has taken place I am sure that the House will expect something to be said from this Bench upon the topics that have been raised by the hon. Gentlemen who have taken part in it. We have had three speeches from the bench opposite on which the Pacifist minority is represented, the speeches of the Mover and the Seconder of the Resolution and the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. I shall direct criticism against those speeches as being strangely different in their ten oil and their tone. The Mover and Seconder of the Resolution erred on the side of extreme narrowness of interpretation. They tried to make out, and the whole tenor of their arguments was, that this country was being kept in the War in order to restore Alsace-Lorraine to France. I think that that theme occupied about half the speech of the Mover and a great deal of the speech of the Seconder. That is a complete misapprehension of the general views of the present Government, and I think I may say of the late Government and of the country at large as regards the objects of the War. In the attempts to narrow down the objects of this War they utterly lose the perspective in which this War should be looked at. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down cannot be said to have narrowed the objects of the War, because, unless my ears deceived me, he seemed to think that we ought to fight on until every country in Europe is democratised. Is that seriously the position of the Peace party? Are we really to accept as the authentic utterance of those who desire an immediate conference and an immediate peace that that conference and that peace should not take place until all Europe has been democratised, until every State, great and small—especially, I presume, the great States—should be fashioned on the pattern which commends itself to the hon. Gentleman?

I did not say that. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman does not want to misrepresent me. What I did say was, that to try to attain a political democratic end by war was folly, because war could not do it, but we hoped to use the opportunities of the War to push forward this democratic end, which is the only real security of the peace of Europe, and we were sure that that would come as a result of the War.

That is the very proposition which I have made. According to the version which the hon. Gentleman has just given—I have no doubt quite accurately—of the speech which he delivered a few moments ago he desires that this War should go on, and under cover of the War that there should be a great democratic propaganda in all the countries.

And that the War should be used in the way in which he has just told us this very instant as an instrument by which a democratic form of government may be extended to all the states of Europe. I think that he made a quotation from a German Socialist to show that nothing could unite Germany more against her present enemies than the idea that those enemies intended to force upon her against her will not the form of government which Germany desires, but the form of government which their enemies happen to admire. I have always been one of those who passionately desire, like the hon. Gentleman, that free institutions should be extended throughout Europe, but I have never thought that it would be a wise or a possible thing for one country to dictate to another country under what form of government it should exist. I will leave the rather wide sweep of the hon. Gentleman's political speculations on one side and come to the rather narrow issues raised by the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment. He devoted the whole of his speech to an attack upon the Government for having extended the war aims of this country until they embrace every kind of end in which this country had a very small indirect interest, and in supporting that view he really gate the House to understand that he had authentic information to the effect that the Allies were bound by a secret treaty which was to hand over to France or to some independent community the truly German parts of Germany on the left bank of the Rhine.

That is a complete mare's nest. There is no such treaty. The British Government knows of no such treaty and are party to no such treaty, nor do I believe that any such treaty exists. And I think it a great pity that the hon. Gentleman should come down to this House and use arguments which will of course be repeated in Germany without the contradiction—the argument which has for its basis that the object of the. Allied Powers is not what they have loudly proclaimed it to be, to free small nationalities, to make the constitutions of the states of Europe as far as possible harmonise with the wishes of the inhabitants, but that, on the contrary, the object of the Allied Powers is to take away what is. admittedly German territory and tear it away from the German Empire. That never has been the object of the Allies; it is not the object of the Allies, and no treaty binding the Allies together has ever suggested for a moment any such object. I think it a great pity that the hon. Gentleman ever embarked upon that hazardous line of political speculation, or entered upon the consideration of what ought to be one of the most serious Debates of the Session, with speculations and fancies based entirely, as far as I can make out, on unauthenticated gossip.

Let me turn from the imaginary treaty about the left bank of the Rhine and say one word about Alsace-Lorraine. One would suppose from the speeches delivered earlier this evening that His Majesty's Government had suddenly come to the conclusion that of all the declared objects of this War Alsace-Lorraine stood out solitary, pre-eminent, unconnected with any other of the objects of the War. Of course, we desire the restitution of Alsace-Lorraine, and for that without doubt we are fighting. But not for that alone; not for that as an isolated element in the War objects. We are fighting, as the hon. Gentleman knows, and as I have stated over and over again, in order, in the first place, that Europe may be free from the perpetual menace of the military party in Germany. Partly for that reason, and partly on its own merits, we desire to see the map of Europe so rearranged that the various peoples shall live under the forms of government which they desire, and which they think suits their own historic development and their own, to use a rather harmless modern phrase, cultural necessity. It is not Europe alone that we have to consider under this Amendment. There is mention made of Belgium, which of course, in the view of everybody in this country, though not of everybody in Germany, must be restored intact and rehabilitated. But you must remember that this is a war which, through no fault of ours, has expanded over not only almost the whole of Europe, but over no small part of Asia.

Have the hon. Gentleman no interest in those elements in the Turkish Empire, for example, which have suffered, and are suffering, not merely under misgovernment, but under the most brutal and barbarous tyranny? Is Armenia nothing? Is Arabia nothing? They talk of democratisation. Democratisation is invaluable when applied to States in a certain degree of advancement. It is the one security, as I think, of good government and progress. But it is not applicable to every form of human community, and at all events one thing is certain— that you cannot democratise Turkey. That is quite clear. We have experimental proof of it. The Turks and allied races naturally fall under despotic government. By naturally I mean that history shows that, however you shake them about, whatever historical catastrophes occur to them—conquests by others, by themselves, by dynastic revolutions—whatever you do, they naturally crystallise again in some form of absolute rule. What happened in Turkey? The Sultan was turned out, and we thought we were going to have a democratised Turkey. We know what the result has been. The Government of democratised Turkey has been as centralised, as ignorant, as barbarous, and far less capable than that of some at least of the great Sultans who have ruled over that race. Turkey has come into the War. Is it to be a matter of indifference to us that Armenia should be put back, as the hon. Gentleman by his Resolution wants her to be put back, under Turkish rule?

The first proposition in the Resolution is that all territory occupied by military power, to whichever side it belongs, is to be restored to its original owner. That has only one meaning, and that meaning is you are going to put back Armenia under Turkey and Arabia under Turkey. We do not want to destroy any true Turkish community, a Turkish community made up of Turks governed by Turks for Turks in a manner which suits the Turks, but by all means do not let us put altogether out of sight one of the objects which we ought to aim at now that this great international catastrophe has fallen upon us—the possibility, the duty, of taking away from under Turkish rule people who are not Turks, who have been tyrannised over by the Turks, whose development has Been stopped by the Turks, and who, I believe, would flourish under their own rule and under their own customs if they were given the chance. The hon. Gentleman has framed his Amendment—has he no views about Poland? Let him consider. He thinks that by keeping the subject open, the whole question of Poland can be satisfactorily settled, under existing circumstances, if you only bring European powers together round a table. Is that common sense? Does he suppose—I put it quite simply—that Germany would ever consent to restoring as the Pope suggested, the ancient Kingdom of Poland or even of restoring that part of the ancient Kingdom of Poland which was especially Polish in character and in population? Of course she would not consent. The idea of waiting until we have got round a table to determine questions of that sort is not—

Why do you not? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"] I thank the hon. Gentleman for permitting me, and may I suggest that very probably a conference would find these things out?

The hon. Gentleman is now dealing with Poland by negotiation. Does he seriously think that Germany is in a mood to do that? Let him look at the German newspapers, which are not considering how they are going to restore that part of Poland taken by Frederick the Great, but whether or not it would be wise for them to add to their provinces by taking the Baltic Provinces of Russia, and Riga, and all the rest of it. It requires no investigation, I can assure the hon. Member, in the present state of Europe, in the present temper of our enemies, to know that such negotiations are not likely to bear the smallest root. There is one point which I notice in all the speeches delivered to-night, and which I see habitually in all speeches delivered on the same side as that of the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment, it is that they always talk as if we had changed our war aims, or else that we have never declared them. The people who have never declared their war aims are not the Allies but the Central Powers. If the hon. Gentleman will do me the honour to read the covering dispatch which I wrote at the beginning of this year — a dispatch covering the more important document, a dispatch which represents the views of all the Allies, a despatch which may be said to have specially looked at these probems from the angle of the British Government—if he will read that, he will see that we have expounded our war aims. Can he point to anything said by the Central Powers at any time, or under any provocation, to correspond to that dispatch? I have heard a great deal about the reply of the Central Powers to the Pope's Note. That, if anything, would give them the excuse and occasion for declaring their war aim. They were first asked to do so by President Wilson, when America was still neutral. They never responded to that. Then, some months later, comes a Note from the Vatican. Both Germany and Austria replied to that Note, and the terms of their reply only proved conclusively their inability or their unwillingness to state what their war aims are. There were two points, if I remember rightly, which were specifically mentioned in the Pope's Note; one Belgium, the other Poland, but on neither of these have they said one word. They paid a great many compliments to the Vatican, and they talked about disarmament, and eternal peace, and generalities of that kind —about which I mean to say a word in a moment—but about specific war aims they said nothing. Then, why are we to be reproached? Why are we to be attacked on an occasion like this, when the whole focus of the Debate turns upon Alsace-Lorraine, or whatever it may be, when we have given the general view of the objects and motives which have animated both my right hon. Friend and the late Prime Minister and his colleagues, and also those who sit on these benches, from the very beginning of this War? There has been no change in these aims.

The last objection which is to be applied to them is the one which has been borrowed by the hon. Gentleman opposite from ill-informed persons in another country, who described the war aims of the Allies as Imperialistic. What is there Imperialistic in desiring to see an independent Poland? What is there Imperialistic in wishing to see Armenia freed from Turkey, or Alsace-Lorraine restored to France? What is there Imperialistic in saying that Italy should have the restoration of her own soil, should embrace those of her own race, of her own tongue and of her own civilisation? What is there Imperialistic in saying that the Rumanians should be under the Rumanian flag? What is there Imperialistic in desiring to see that the Serbian community should again be a great, a flourishing, and a united Power. There is nothing Imperialistic in these aims, and for hon. Gentlemen to come down to this House—forgetting the official statements that we have made about our views—to misrepresent our aims in the British House of Commons, knowing that that misrepresentation will receive currency amongst our enemies, seems to me to be one of the greatest disservices which any man can render try his country. One of the illusions which apparently it is very difficult to eradicate from the minds of hon. Gentlemen opposite is that a congress, whatever be the occasion on which it is summoned, ear-always deal effectively and successfully with the problems placed before them. Let the House believe that it is of no use whatever to summon a congress meeting until the people who are to sit around the board have, at all events, arrived at a large measure of agreement already. You call them together round a table with all their differences unsettled, with their divergencies of view undiminished, and with each party thinking that it has only got to go on with the War and its aims will be satisfied. You can get no conclusion out of that; no conclusion is possible; nor has there ever been a cane that I know of in which a congress has met and succeeded in coming to any conclusion that did not come at the end of hostilities and not in the middle.

The hon. Gentleman has only got to read the extracts from German papers to discover that in the opinion of the Germans it is merely French and British stupidity that does not convince us that we are already beaten. I read an extract from an article in a well known German newspaper which adopted that peculiar line of argument. That is not our opinion. Some of us think that the Central Powers are more nearly beaten than they are willing to admit. We know that the Germans are wrong. The Germans probably think that we are wrong. What is the use of our meeting round a table to discuss things which are vital to the future of that country, of Europe, and of mankind? Is not this plain, that if the Germans were in a mood seriously to discuss peace they would, at all events, lay before the world the terms on which, in their opinion, that peace should follow, and the objects which that peace was intended to secure? Let me remind the House that they have ostentatiously refused to do any thing of the kind, and if you read the Germans newspapers you will see that even those that represent the Majority Socialists are full of speculation as to whether it would or would not be wise to get indemnities out of the Allies in order to pay the crushing load of debt which Germany from day to day and hour to hour is heaping on her shoulders; whether or not Belgium, if restored, should be restored completely; whether or not—

Does the right hon. Gentleman say that that is the opinion of the Majority Socialist in Germany? If he does he is totally inaccurate.

I do not think the Majority Socialists are responsible for all the statements I have referred to, but I have certainly seen statements which indicated nothing less than a German peace, and who knows what a German peace is? It is one of the perils of the present situation, in my opinion—I say this parenthetically—that the Majority Socialists in Germany, and in Germany alone, are instruments in the hands of an absolute Government in a way in which the Socialists in no other country, so far as I know, are. I said that this was a parenthetical observation. What falls more into the general line of my argument is this: The hon. Gentleman said that all these questions were abstract questions, as to which you could say, "Well, when these people have fought they ought to meet in congress and settle their differences, and come to some amicable conclusion, and kiss and make friends." You cannot lay down these propositions. There have been plpenty of contests and plenty of wars in the world in which that is true of the belligerents where they make peace, the past is forgotten and no distinction need be drawn by history between the temper in which the two parties entered into the war. That is not the case in this war. You must consider the psychology of the German people, and it really is not prejudice to say, as an hon. Friend of mine did say with great power in a speech this afternoon, that the Germans have an entirely different view of international morality, and of the rights and duties of a powerful state from any other community in the world. I am not going—of course I am not going—to do anything so absurd as to suggest that other nations, have not abused their powers. If you choose to examine history with a view of discovering what crime this nation or that nation may have committed you will have an easy task. We ought to try to look the facts as they are. The facts as they are— at any rate, as I quite honestly read them —are these: that, at all events, since 1863, and in Prussia long before 1863, there was developed this peculiar theory of the State which has not been allowed to remain a theory, but has gradually percolated into every social stratum. It has been resisted, I am glad to think—though I think imperfectly resisted—by the Socialist party in Germany; but apart from the Socialist party in Germany it seems for the moment to have dominated large classes of the community. Now while that remains as it is, it is quite impossible for other nations —in many cases freer nations—to sleep-comfortably in their beds; and it is quite impossible that genuine freedom should be given to the minor nationalities in the immediate proximity of this dominating State.

The hon. Gentleman talked as if the rest of the world were entering into a conspiracy to coerce poor, innocent, unoffending Germany. What the rest of the world has done is to form a league of self-protection against a Power which is more deliberately set upon universal domination than any Power, I think, that has ever existed, or than any Power that has existed for a couple of thousand years; you cannot really quote such cases as Charlemagne in. the Middle Ages in the contrary direction. Cold-blooded, deliberate, calculated, educated, skilful determination to be the dominating Power, first, of Europe, and secondly, of the world, is a fact of which I do not think anybody acquainted with recent German thought illustrated by recent German practice can have the least doubt. Of course, in a country like this, there will be some crank found to support almost any theory, however wild; but in Germany it is not a question of cranks. What nobody has yet found is the crank who resisted in Germany. In German eyes such a man would be a crank.

Nothing has given rise to more bitter reflections than a comparison between the pious observations made in the German reply to the Pope about everlasting peace and arbitration, and all the rest of it, with what Germany preached and practised before this War. America and England have been trying to get those principles gradually, slowly, not ineffectually, within the measure of our means, adopted between nations. Who has resisted—Germany. Never would Germany accept a single obligation which would diminish or hamper her powers of striking at once and at any moment against any rival whom she desired to suppress or coerce. She inherited, indeed united Germany inherited, from a preceding generation, one great obligation, as we know, which did hamper her—the obligation to protect Belgium and maintain its independence. That she simply brushed aside as if it did not exist Would hon. Gentlemen who talk to us as if we were prolonging the War for Imperialistic ends tell us how they think you ought to deal with a Power which evidently and obviously is only a recent convert to those views of international arbitration and a league of nations, the most recent, and, I am afraid I have to say, the least sincere—a nation which has preached to its people for generations the doctrine of force and which in the early days of the War, when a great and striking victory seemed within their reach, preached not a league of nations, not international arbitration, but the enormous benefits to mankind of imposing upon them German culture. You may say, while you cannot expect in a moment the military party in Germany to change its views, at all events you might fight until you require them to make a treaty or treaties in which the views to which they objected would nevertheless be accepted and that Europe might rest content with the security thus obtained. Has anybody got the hardihood to suggest that any security is to be obtained on that road? Is there a single contract of any kind, however solemn it may be, however closely it may harmonise with the natural morality of mankind and with the instincts of humanity which civilisation is supposed, more or less erroneously, to foster is there a single one of those engage- ments, however entered into, which Germany has not broken at once and without hesitation when it suited her? What it is the overrunning and enslaving of a country she was pledged to defend, or whether it is the sinking of hospital ships which she promised to respect, or whether it deals with the lives of women and children in the ocean—take the whole circuit of international duties, whatever it is, if it does not suit Germany, her principles and her practice alike say the obligation may be thrown, and ought to be thrown, to the winds. No doubt these atrocious doctrines—atrocious doctrines I think we all think they are—are the teaching of a party, the military party in Germany.

If we could really hope to see, or when we can see, Germany truly democratised, I think a different creed will come in, and when that different creed comes in, then, indeed, we may hope to see that Germany will follow the same course as other nations, and no longer be regarded by them as a standing menace to their liberties, but will vie with them in furthering the work of civilisation. Are we near that? Are we near enough, at all events, to enter into those discussions with the military party in Germany, which apparently is the course which the hon. Gentlemen who moved and seconded desire? Nobody longs more passionately for peace than I do; no community desires peace more than the British. Our traditions, our hopes, our ideals, are peaceful traditions, peaceful hopes, peaceful ideals. The war aims which we have described all conduce to peace. The hon. Gentleman talks of liberty and democratisation, and the rights of nationalities. Those are our objects. We have proclaimed them. Have our enemies ever proclaimed them? Have they ever done anything to promote them? The hon. Gentlemen belong to a party which boasts of democracy as its one ideal. They belong to a party which has always talked loudly of reform, freedom, reform, the rights of small nationalities, the advantage of allowing populations to be governed in the fashion of which they themselves approve — those are among the objects of the Allies. Are they among the objects of those whom the Allies are fighting? The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down knows they are not. He accuses us on this bench of having missed a great opportunity, as far as I understood him, in not having successfully carried out a propaganda in Germany to induce the Germans to follow the examples of the Russians. I have heard many charges brought against the War Cabinet, the present War Cabinet and the War Cabinet of my right hon. Friend opposite, but surely a more grotesque charge was never brought against any body of Ministers.

How can we change the heart of Germany? That is the point, that is the difficulty. How can we approach those great classes, which I am sure must exist in potentiality if not in actuality, which will understand the ideas that commend themselves to the American, British, French, and Italian nations? They exist I have no doubt, but they have no power and we have no power to get at them. How, under those circumstances, can you expect this conference? The proper time will come without doubt when a conference will meet to discuss the rearrangement of the world after the War. When it will come I know not, but surely one of the preliminaries must be that the Central Powers, who are now united with their Turkish allies in coercing small nationalities and in maintaining under their heel subject peoples, that these Powers will tell us what it is they desire and how far they will concede to that higher spirit of policy which animates the great free communities both of the New World and of the Old. That time is not yet. May it come soon! We shall le committing a crime if we try to persuade ourselves, or persuade others, that it had come. The hon. Members who moved and seconded the Amendment dwelt most naturally—I do not complain of it—upon the destruction of human life and the accumulation of human suffering which has been caused by this War. They cannot be exaggerated. No rhetoric, however eloquent, will rise to the full height of describing what that destruction and what that misery has been, is, and at the moment is likely to be.

But the fact that it has been borne by these freedom-loving nations is in itself, surely, a conclusive argument against the waste of this suffering by consenting to give up those ideals for which this suffering has been undergone! In every one of the addresses which have been made by President Wilson, or by this Government, or, so far as I know, by any of the Allied Governments, first and foremost among our war aims has been placed, and always placed, the creation of a durable peace. It is because I think that if we were to adopt the advice of the hop Member who has spoken from that bench opposite we should indefinitely postpone the possibility of securing the world against a repetition of these ills that I beg the House, by an overwhelming majority, to show not merely to the country, which requires no persuasion, but to our Allies, and not less to our enemies, that we believe in the cause in which we are struggling, that we know we can bring it to a successful termination, that that cause is not directed against the real interests of any community, but that it is the cause of freedom, and of justice, and, above all, of peace! For that reason I shall certainly go into the Lobby, and I hope, irrespective of party divisions, every man will go into the Lobby and show clearly what we think, why we think it, what are the ends at which we are aiming, and proclaim at large that, great as are the sacrifices that we have already made, we are ready to continue them, and to continue them indefinitely, until the great, righteous, and unselfish objects we have in view are finally secured.

I do not think that any Parliamentary complaint can be made against my two hon. Friends who moved and seconded this Amendment in taking this opportunity to express their views. It is an appropriate one according to our forms of procedure. Undoubtedly the discussion which has taken place has been interesting and instructive. At the same time I cannot help thinking—and I think that feeling is widely shared—that in some respects the moment is not very opportune—for it is at a time when all our interests and all our sympathies are, or ought to be, concentrated up in the gallant struggle which is being made by our Italian Allies—I am glad to say with British and French assistance—to repel the invader from their territory, and to carry on worthily the contest which they have so splendidly and courageously waged for the last two and a half years. My object in rising for a moment or two is not to prolong the discussion, but simply to say a word to remove, if it be necessary, what seemed to me to be two misconceptions. The first, which has run through the speeches of my three hon. Friends who have supported this Amendment, is that the stress which has been laid, and is being laid, upon the question of Alsace-Lorraine indicates that if that question were out of the way or could be puttied by itself, the other war aims, which my hon. Friends profess—and, I am sure, quite honestly—to pursue with the same ardour as do some of us, are within reach of attainment. No fallacy could be more complete. I have followed with the closest attention the declarations of responsible statesmen, publicists, and exponents of opinion in Germany during the last two or three months, and I cannot find a trace of evidence worthy of the name in regard to the very points on which my hon. Friends so justly laid stress. The evacuation of Belgium, and its restoration to a position of complete independence—to take that only as one illustration out of many—in regard to that I cannot find that there is any trace that the Germans are in any mood to consider such a policy. I feel very strongly it is no good attempting to isolate this or that particular purpose of the Allies, and to place it in a position of independence or priority as compared with others. Unless we see in regard to all—they are all interdependent, and all really rest upon the same principle, and all are directed to the same purpose—unless we see that our enemies are in the mood to concede our just claims in regard to all, it is no use whatever going into classification and discrimination as to the relative merit of this or that aim.

The other misconception which I should like to help in removing is the notion that in some way or other, definite or indefinite, we have shifted, or expanded, the aims for which we entered into the War. Speaking with as much knowledge, and more responsibility, than any man in the House or in the country, it was only this week three years ago that I took the opportunity at the Guildhall of explaining, and defining in the clearest possible language, what were the aims for which this country had entered the War. I think, in the following week, certainly within a very short time, M. Viviani, then Prime Minister of France, repeated almost verbatim—at any rate the sense of it— the statement I then made, and the agreement of the French Government with, those aims. They were not, as the right hon. Gentleman has truly said, and are not, any of them, either Imperialistic or vindictive. They are one and all, as we then thought—and as, I believe, we think to-day—needed for the double purpose of the emancipation and security of Europe. So far as my knowledge goes, they have not been in any particular expanded, and, so far as my hopes go, they will not in any particular be contracted. Unless and until they are attained, there is no hoper for the enduring peace of the world.

It is my desire— [HON. MEMBERS:"Divide, divide!"] This-House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] This does not reflect credit—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"] I desire to protest against this interference with freedom, of speech—[HON. MEMBERS:"Divide!"]

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put"; but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

Hon. Members may by their interruptions—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide !"]—endeavour to suppress speech—[Interruption.]

7.0 P.M.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put. [HON. MEMBERS:"Gag!"]

Question put," That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 282; Noes, 31

Division No. 104.]

AYES.

[7.2 p.m.

Acland Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

Bentham, George Jackson

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.

Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-

Agnew, Sir George William

Barnett, Captain R. W.

Bethell, Sir J. H.

Amery, Captain L. C. M S.

Barnston, Capt. Harry

Bird, Alfred

Archdale, Lieut. Edward M.

Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick, Burghs)

Blair, Reginald

Ashley, Wilfrid W.

Barton, Sir William

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)

Bowden, Major G. R. Harland

Astor, Major Hon. Waldorf

Bathurst, Capt. C. (Wilts, Wilton)

Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.)

Baird, John Lawrence

Beach, William F. H.

Boyton, James

Baldwin Stanley

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, London)

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

Benn, Com. Ian Hamilton

Brunner, John F. L.

Bull, Sir William James

Higham, John Sharp

Philipps, Captain Sir Owen (Chester)

Burdett-Coutts, w.

Hinds, John

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Burn, Colonel C. R.

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Pratt, J. W.

Butcher, John George

Hope, Harry (Bute)

Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)

Campion, Lieut.-Col. W. R.

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)

Carew, Charles R. S. (Tiverton)

Hope, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Edin., Midlothian)

Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund

Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred

Hope, John Deans (Haddington)

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Carnegie, Lt.-Colonel D. G.

Horne, E.

Randles, Sir John

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Raphael, Major Sir Herbert H.

Cator, John

Hudson, Walter

Rawson, Colonel R. H.

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F.

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Rea, Walter Russell

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H.

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.)

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University)

Ingleby, Holcombe

Richardson, Albion (Peckham)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Robert (Herts, Hitchin)

Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York)

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc r.)

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Cheyne, Sir W.

Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)

Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M.

Clive, Col. Percy Archer

Jessel, Colonel Sir H. M.

Robinson, Sidney

Clough, William

Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

Rothschild, Major Lionel de

Clynes, John R.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Rowlands, James

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen)

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey)

Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)

Cochrane, Cecil Algernon

Joynson-Hicks, William

Samuels, Arthur W.

Collins, Major Godfrey P. (Greenock)

Kellaway, Frederick George

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood)

Collins, Sir William (Derby)

Kerry, Lieut.-Col. Earl of

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Colvin, Col. Richard Beale

Keswick, Henry

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Cory, James Herbert (Cardiff)

Knight, Captain E. A.

Smallwood, Edward

Courthope, Major George Loyd

Lane-Fox, Major G. R.

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Cowan, Sir W. H.

Larmor, Sir J.

Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks)

Craig Col. James (Down, E.)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert

Craik, Sir Henry

Layland-Barratt, Sir F.

Stanier, Captain Sir Seville

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Lee, Sir Arthur Hamilton

Stanton, Charles Butt

Crooks, Rt. Hon. William

Levy, Sir Maurice

Starkey, Captain John R.

Currie, George W.

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. H.

Dalrymple, Hon. H. H.

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Stewart, Gershom

Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

M'Curdy, Charles Albert

Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk, B'ghs)

Sutton, John E.

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)

Mackinder, Halford J.

Sykes, Col. Sir Alan John (Knutsford)

Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughy H.

Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald

Sykes, Col. Sir Mark (Hull, Central)

Dixon, Charles Harvey

Macmaster, Donald

Terrell, Major Henry (Gloucester)

Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

McMicking, Major Gilbert

Thomas, Sir G. (Monmouth, S.)

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Macpherson, James Ian

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

Maden, Sir John Henry

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)

Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)

Malcolm, Ian

Tickler, Thomas George

Faber, George Denison (Clapham)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Tillet, B.

Faber, Colonel W. V. (Hants, W.)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Touche, Sir George Alexander

Falconer, James

Meux. Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth

Toulmin, Sir George

Fell, Arthur

Meysey-Thompson, Colonel E. C.

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson

Middlebrook, Sir William

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Finney, Samuel

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)

Millar, James Duncan

Walters, Sir John Tudor

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Wardle, George J.

Fletcher, John Samuel

Morgan, George Ray

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Foster Philip Staveley

Morison, Hector (Hackney, S.)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Ganzoni, Francis John C.

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Watson, J. B. (Stockton)

Gardner, Ernest

Gastrell Lieut.-Col. Sir W. Houghton

Morrison-Bell, Major E. (Ashburton)

Webb, Lieut.-Col. Sir H.

Gelder, Sir W. A.

Morton, Alpheus Cleophas

Weston, Colonel J. W.

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Mount, William Arthur

Wheler, Major Granville C. H.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Whiteley, Herbert James

Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred

Newman, Major John R. P.

Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Greig, Col. James William

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Williams, John (Glamorgan)

Gretton, Colonel John

Nield, Herbert

Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.)

Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William

Norman, Sir Henry

Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea)

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich)

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir J.

Williamson, Sir Archibald

Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham)

O'Grady, James

Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

Hanson, Charles Augustin

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid.)

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Wolmer, Viscount

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Wood, John (Stalybridge)

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

Parker, James (Halifax)

Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnen (Glasgow).

Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.)

Parkes, Sir Edward E.

Worthington Evans, Major Sir L.

Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.)

Parrott, Sir James Edward

Wright, Captain Henry Fitzherbert

Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.)

Partington, Hon. Oswald

Yate, Colonel C. E.

Haslam, Lewis

Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek)

Yeo, Alfred William

Hayward, Major Evan

Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse)

Young, William (Perthshire, East)

Helme, Sir Norval Watson

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike (Darlington)

Younger, Sir George

Hemmerde, Edward George

Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding)

Henry, Sir Charles (Shropshire)

Peel, Lieut.-Col. R. F. (Suffolk, S. E.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Sir E. Cornwall and Lord E. Talbot.Sir E. Cornwall and Lord E. Talbot.

Herbert, Col. Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)

Perkins, Walter Frank

Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E.

Peto, Basil Edward

NOES.

Anderson, W. C.

King, Joseph

Pringle, William M. R.

Arnold, Sydney

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Barrow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset)

Lynch, Arthur Alfred

Runciman, Sir Walter (Hartlepool)

Beale, Sir William Phipson

Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)

Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)

Bryce, J. Annan

Mallalieu, Frederick William

Snowden, Philip

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Watt, Henry A.

Buxton, Noel

Morrell, Philip

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)

Chancellor, Henry George

Nuttall, Harry

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)

Outhwaite, R. L.

Hogge, James Myles

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES —Mr. Whitehouse and Mr. Trevelyan.—Mr. Whitehouse and Mr. Trevelyan.

Holt, Richard Durning

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh Central)

Jowett, Frederick William

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put accordingly, and agreed to.

Main Question again proposed.

I desire to introduce new elements for consideration, and, if possible, to lift the whole Debate to a new order of ideas, in the first place, however, I will say that, in spite of the powerful arguments used by the pacifist group in the preceding Debate—and I believe that, in proportion to their number, they are perhaps the most powerful force in this House—I remain unconvinced, and for this reason, that a peace at the present moment would be a German peace, and when I say a German peace I hope to make clear to the mind of this House the full significance of those words. Much of the preceding Debate seemed to me almost as unreal as the fine disquisitions in Byzantium on fine points of interpretations of edicts while the Turks were battering down the walls. Viewing the matter, not in mere formal terms and the discussion of documents and Motions either in this Parliament or in the Reichstag, there are great dynamic forces at work which will settle this question far more effectively than any of these discussions. Even an agreement on the part of the Germans to abandon their conquests, to restore Belgium and Serbia and give autonomy to Poland, would seem insufficient ground for a conclusion of peace, because the question arises as to what guarantees the Allies would have that any of these compacts would be maintained. The whole history of Germany in modern days has shown that there is a great sweep of opinion in that country, affecting at least the great governing bodies. Dating from the era when they first entered upon their aggression on Denmark, then upon Austria, and later upon France, the great governing machine has been inspired by this one absorbing idea of the expansion of Germany, the growth and spreading throughout the world of what is called culture, and the domination of the world by Germany—Pan-Germanism. With that sentiment, which has been intensified by this War, it seems to me that to come with proposals of peace, or to have discussions upon terms of peace with these great blood merchants of Germany, would be futile, because they are now bent upon a war of conquest, of which this present war is only the preliminary. The German war spirit is a kind of religion; it is truly a religion of a base character; but it is as real and vital as many religions which have spread at various epochs in the history of the different races of men. Let us trace out to its national consequences what a German peace at this moment would really mean.

A peace which left Germany in possession of her conquests—and, in spite of all that has been said even in Germany, I would refuse to believe that she has any idea of evacuating Belgium until I saw the last German soldier leave Belgian soil—such a peace would leave her more powerful than ever in Europe, because she would have increased her possessions. The factor which is most elastic, most easily restored, is that of man-power, of which we see such a terrible destruction in the War to-day. In this way Germany would rise, whether in five, ten, fifteen, or twenty years is of small consequence, and she would single out the Allies one by one, and if the combined Allies were unable to resist her, no single Ally could possibly hope to stand up against her augmented power. If she singled out France she would overrun that country and France would sink into the position of a German colony. If she singled out this country, as is most probable, I hope the idea will not possess even a pacifist that a collision between this country and Germany would simply result in a victory of one side or the other represented by an indemnity, however large. In the next collision of this country with Germany, unless Germany is beaten now, the results would not be a victory with an indemnity, but a victory with German military officers sitting in London as rulers; then this country would sink into the position of a satrapy. There are men in Ireland who would say "that is a consummation devoutly wished for"—for instance, the Sinn Feiners. If this country were to disappear as an independent country and fall under the heel of Germany, it is idle to suppose that the autonomy of Ireland would be respected for a moment. If Germany reached that position of power she would fear nothing in the world, not as Bismarck once said, nothing except God, but the embers of that old flame of freedom which she had crushed down, nothing but what would stir up a rebellious spirit and talk of the restoration of republics. This country would disappear, and the history of Ireland would be once and for all definitely closed. The great Dominions would cease to exist as self-governing dominions; they would sink to the position of colonies of Germany.

What I say now has happened before in the history of the world. There have been great epochs in the history of the world during which peace has reigned and where it has been proclaimed by the domination of one great Power. We are now at the beginning of what in after history will seem to be not merely the termination of this War, but the beginning of a new era for the whole of the civilised nations of the world. Whether that new era will represent a German civilisation or whether some brighter hope will emerge for the future of humanity, the higher ideals of freedom and true expansion of human greatness, the spread of liberty and liberty-loving institutions for which all these sacrifices have been made, remains to be seen. That being the case, let us consider the chances of this country against Germany and the means taken by this country to withstand the onslaught of its terrible antagonist. The Germans are now on the west bank of the Tagllamento. They are marching from victory to victory and threatening France from a new quarter, and they say that they will determine the end of this War not by terms of negotiation with the Powers but by enforcing their own will with the weight of the sword. And what is this country doing?

At the beginning of this War the chances of the Allies against Germany were perhaps ninety in a hundred, but since the beginning of the War almost with a fatal regularity I have beheld those chances diminish until now I can hardly dare to utter how many remain. Let us for a moment cast our eyes on the map of Europe and lift our imagination to the significance of those great names with which we have become so familiar. Let us see the real meaning of the great dynamic forces at play. The Germans have suddenly and apparently by surprise attacked the Italians on the Isonzo. For weeks, for months before that attack I had a sense that it was impending, and months ago I gave reasons for that belief which ought to have appealed to the minds of the Government. It was no surprise to the Germans. It was no surprise to those who cast their visions forward and saw the real meaning of events. It seems to have been a surprise to the Government, and when these events happened they had nothing to meet it except an exprssion of surprise and now perhaps an expression almost of rage. It was apparent that that blow was coming months ago and the Government ought to have seen it and taken the necessary means to have forestalled it. I will give the reasons why it was impending and why it was inevitable. At the installation of the new régime in Russia which changed to a great degree the military situation, the Germans had to reconsider the whole position, form new plans to meet that contingency, and make up their minds in what direction they would then concentrate and hurl their force. They made arrangements on the Western Front, which resulted in various set-backs and minor defeats, which were hailed throughout the Press of this country as the beginning of the crumbling of Germany. I can hardly believe that the people who uttered those sentiments really believed them. If not, then they were intentionally deceiving the country and making it ill-prepared for this blow which has now fallen. If they did believe what they said at that time, then I say that by that fact alone they showed that their judgment is so false that they are quite incapable of leading this country to victory. The Germans themselves pro claimed that the rectification of their lines was a measure of defence. They set up the Hindenburg line, which was believed to be impregnable, and which events have shown to be impregnable. Week after week and month after month the British troops have been hurled against that line. They have shown prodigious valour and gained minor successes, but, as weeks and months have elapsed, that line remains virtually intact, and the military situation there is just what it was before.

Months ago, in this very House, not being wise after the event, but foreseeing, I predicted that that would be the inevitable result of the tactics which were pursued with so much valour and blindness and which has made the reputation of General Haig; and for foreseeing and predicting those events in a manner which has been completely verified I was received in derision by the members of the Treasury, who now stand before the world as the great wrecking force of this nation. But the Germans knew that those tactics would be unsuccessful and even ruinous, and they were content that Haig should hurl his forces and slaughter his men against that impregnable wall, while they were forming plans of another and more significant character.

I will indicate how it should have been plain to the directing forces on that Front Bench why the blow on Italy must inevitably fall. The Germans had several possible plans. One or two of them I will not here mention. For boldness, possibly they might have been the more successful, but as a matter of fact they were not adopted. I myself thought that the next blow would be directed against Italy or Salonika. Germany on those lines had the choice of three alternatives. One was to direct their efforts against Russia, another was to direct their efforts against Italy, and the third was to attack the Expeditionary Force at Salonika. I thought they would select Italy, because I believed that at that time the Russian defence was far greater than it has proved to have been, and I thought it probable that the Germans would consider that they would lose far too much time, which was valuable to them, in the invasion of Russia, and that the expedition would give merely indecisive results. They chose the bolder plan and invaded Russia, and they have got results which to them are of the utmost value and of the highest magnitude, relatively as great to then as the seizure of Antwerp in the early stages of the War. They have provisioned hem selves, they have staved off the specter of famine, and they can live for twenty years by the conquests which they have acquired, without being supplied from the outside. They have secured themselves economically and they have strengthened themselves materially.

Having thus progressed so far in Russia as to secure the key positions, they turned their attention to Italy. They had a choice of two alternatives, Italy and Salonika, and they chose again the greater of these problems. Their blow against Italy was inevitable, and the success of that blow was inevitable. I have only to repeat here, in order to justify that view, the statements and arguments which I gave in this House months ago, when I said that nothing appeals to the German mind with greater force and with greater attraction than objective problems in which all the elements are known, and in which the factors of resistance can be calculated, so that scientifically, almost mathematically, they arrive by their calculations at the strength of the force necessary to break down the resistance; and then with swift despatch they proceed to prepare and to execute their plan. There should have been no surprise that they have forced the Italians from the Isonzo. Months ago it should have been foreseen that it was only a question of time and opportunity. If it were not foreseen by the rulers of this nation, that fact alone condemns them and makes them unfit to lead. If they had foreseen it, instead of now, in great haste, setting in motion some means of countervailing that plan, they should have been prepared months ago to strengthen the defences of Italy and should have had their reinforcements there before the blow fell. It is the same old story which we have heard again and again. Under the old regime the present Prime Minister made this House ring with the words "too late," now the words "too late" are heard once more under his rule. That is enough to damn his judgment and his decision.

The importance of this blow against Italy cannot be over-estimated. I said that the Germans had two alternatives after their conquest of Russia, one to turn to Italy and the other to turn to Salonika. They have turned to Italy, and have inflicted a crushing defeat upon the Italians and wrested from them the key positions which they had gained after tremendous toil during two years of struggle; but that does not exclude the other alternative, which should stare us in the face even now. It is only a question of time and opportunity when the next blow will fall on the Expeditionary Force at Salonika. What means have the Government taken, or what means will they take adequately to defend that force? That force seems to be hung up in the air, almost as a sacrifice to the Germans. The German blow will inevitably fall there, and, unless some means are adopted, which have not been adopted, up to now, that blow will almost inevitably be successful. What will follow from that? The Germans will overrun Italy; they will have taken Salonika, and they will overrun Greece. All the ports of Italy and Greece will be so many harbours not merely of refuge for submarines, but for the preparation of docks for the building of new sumbarines. As a result of that possible blow it is only a question of time when the Mediterranean itself will have become a German lake. I am tracing for you beforehand what seems to me the logical and inevitable march of facts, and in tracing them out and anticipating them I seem to be performing a feat which it has never occurred to the Government to attempt.

It was vital to the interests of this country that Italy should have been defended to the last ounce, not now on the Tagliamento, or westward towards the confines of France, but in their key positions which they had secured, even if in order to buttress them up and make their defence secure it was necessary to take some millions of the men in this country, many of whom have been training since the beginning of the War but have never once seen the enemy. That is the fault of playing what is called the safe game. The country which always plays the safe game must inevitably lose. That was policy which inspired Napoleon III., who feebly imitated his great prototype in holding reserves until they were no longer useful, and until the battle had been lost and won. This country by playing the safe game and while holding men here for defence is losing opportunities on the vital fields. These men should have been fighting where the fight is being lost and won, on fields which history may declare to be decisive.

That being so, let us consider the men who are ruling this country. If my remarks are received in the spirit in which they are uttered then by to-morrow the present regime will have ceased, the Government will have been thrown out, and we shall have proceeded to find new men.

I will indicate and enlarge on the means by which new plans and new men may be got. I felt inclined to come down to-day with a balance and a lantern. A balance to weigh the Government and a lantern to seek, after the manner of Diogenes, for a man. Want of character has been the vital flaw of this Government, and that flaw ultimately means defeat, disaster, and the disappearance of nations. I was one of those who had hopes of the present Prime Minister, and who wished to see the disappearance of the previous regime, and the installation of a Government which I thought Would be a Government of energy, decision, and power. I must say now that I have never for a moment regretted the disappearance of the previous Government. There is one point which can be urged in defence of the present Prime Minister, and it is that the first Government that held power during this War showed itself to be so incapable, so inept, so blind to the very meaning of the war and to the existence of powers which it was possible it could wield, that it left the present Prime Minister a legacy which on his accession to office I said would require a man of genius to redeem. He has not been that man of genius. Since his accession to supreme power he has disappointed us. Almost from the beginning he seemed to wilt, to wither, and lose his own qualities. He seemed even to adopt the fatal faults of his predecessor. The main fault of his predecessor was this, that in face of a great exterior problem which meant the life or death of the country, instead of taking adequate means of calling around him men capable of dealing with that problem, he contented himself with calling in men of big reputation and of shielding himself behind those big reputations, and off-shouldering his own responsibility. That has been the fatal flaw of the present Government.

The present Prime Minister has added something else to these flaws. He has failed to see clearly the terms of any great exterior problem, and in face of successions of disasters, one after the other, he has only replied by what I call the opium dope of optimism. He has begun by deluding himself and by doping himself with opium, and he has doped the senses of this House by the opium of his optimism. That has been his sole reply to the continual and ever-growing menace, and the ever-growing power and ever increasing progress of the enemy on the exterior. After every success of the Germans his reply was not to adopt the means of checking that success, or of turning a defeat into victory; his reply was to make a speech in the Albert Hall or in this House. His reply was eloquent, his reply was poetry, and the Germans meanwhile, steadily and progressively, were building their plans and forcing them on to their inevitable conclusion. The Prime Minister when he first succeeded to power required those qualities which in the past distinguished men like Themistocles, men of great intellectual capacity, of a great indefinable character which is something greater than courage, and which shows itself in the capacity to win victory. The Prime Minister has never exhibited any semblance of that quality—any power of forming any plan adequate to deal with the whole situation, or any power of decision, and forcing on plans which have already been prepared—any capacity either of intellect or of character for inspiring the people and concentrating their efforts; nothing, nothing except the continual opium dope of optimism. In place of the plan to meet the German menace he has given us again and again simply the emotions of a revivalist meeting.

History gives its own comment on these characters and these men. The words, organisation, intellectual power, decision, swiftness of execution would have no meaning and no value if they did not result in victory. Since his accession to power the Prime Minister has acted like a tied man, and that perhaps is the explanation of the whole difficulty. He has been a prisoner of the Eight, he has abandoned his old friends, he has leapt to power, but he is no longer respected by the Radicals or the Socialists, and even by many of the Welsh members whose champion he was and by whose aid he first came into reputation and then into office. He made his leap which landed him in another camp, and, in order to maintain power, he is forced to carry out their mandate. He is their man, and he must obey their orders and submit himself to their influence.

Let us consider for a moment one or two of his chief advisers. We have had in this House discussions with increasing intensity of the dangers of German influence and of the advisability of eliminating from all control men of German affinities and of German origin. Yet one of the chief advisers of the Prime Minister is a man who exercises, perhaps by his driving power, the greatest influence in the War Cabinet; he is a man of German origin and in many respects the antipodes of the Prime Minister. In place of that emotional power—I do not deny for a single moment that it is a power— which distinguishes the Prime Minister, he has a cold, cruel, calculating intellect, and he seems to pride himself on being destitute of those sentimentalities of which the Prime Minister makes such play. That could be forgiven if such a man were big enough in his intellect to mark out the lines of victory. That man apparently so destitute of emotion has, nevertheless, himself a certain form of sentimentalism. One fatal flaw in his political action is that he believes in Austria, he believes in the goodwill of Austria, he believes it is possible to detach her from the German alliance, and, in spite of events which day by day give the negation to that absurd idea, he paralyses British diplomacy and even, British arms, by this defect in his intellectual calculations.

Let us consider others. Let us consider those who direct the foreign policy of this country. I will not criticise the present Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. He is a man for whom, in many respects, I have a certain admiration; he has a difficult task and I believe he is doing his best at the present moment. But he again received a fatal legacy beyond his energy or his power to break away from and mark out a new line of policy of his own. There was a time when it was possible to have defeated the Germans in the Balkans. There was a time when it might have been advisable to have calculated entirely in that region and to have thrown the whole forces, not only of this country, but of France, is far as they were available from the Western defence, and of Italy and Serbia on one line of attack. I remember on one occasion having a conversation with Prince Alexander of Serbia, a Royal Prince who has won his spurs in this War, has shown himself to be in the true sense a leader of his people, and, moreover, has given evidence of the qualities of a great military leader. When I suggested that plan to him he almost leapt from his chair and said: "Yes, if that had been done at a certain time the War would be over now." That was the weak point of the Central Empires, and even Serbia alone was almost capable of holding the line for many months. Certainly Serbia, backed up by the available forces of England, France and Italy, could not only have held the line, but could have driven a shaft right into the heart of Germany itself. But that suggestion, even if put, forward, was never entertained, and the hesitating expedition which was finally launched was deprived of all chances of success, not for military reasons, but for certain reasons of State which I will now explain.

General Sarrail, with his totally inadequate forces, saw that his whole chance of success was to be found in the very boldest possible military measures, and he proposed to make a dash on Sofia. But it was necessary to guard his rear against a power which was hampering him the power of a King whose machinations for two years are now so evident, a man who by virtue of his position, by virtue of his rank, and by virtue of all that gave him access to the secrets of all the Powers, was not only the most dangerous enemy of this country in the Balkans, but was also the most dangerous of all the enemy spies. This should have been evident to our own representatives, it should have been evident to the British Minister in Greece from the beginning, and if it were evident to him he should have made it evident to the Government, which should have acted on his advice. Even without his information the Government ought to have seen that it was evident, as it was evident to many of us in this House. For months, really for years, I myself, almost single-handed, here hammered away at that point, which I regarded as vital, and which events have proved to be vital, and the reply of the Government was an attempt at derision, and even insult, from that bench, a derision and an insult which now recoil on themselves. I say that that expedition in the Balkans was defeated in its purpose, not by military necessities but by an almost incomprehensible desire to prop up the dynasty of an enemy King, and I say that those brave Irish soldiers —no, I will not name any particular soldiers—I say that the brave soldiers of the Allies, the soldiers who came there to fight against ten-fold odds and covered themselves with military glory, were in retreat—those men sacrificed their lives not in defence of their country, not in defence even of the banners which set forth the ideals of the Allies, not in the defence of democracy; their lives were sacrificed in pursuance of an ignoble policy of keeping in power a man whose every act, thought, word and deed was inimical to the Allies, whose one and only grace, if grace it were, was that he was related closely to the chief enemy of this country and of the Allies, and also therefore related to those who rule here. When the history of this War comes to be written no page will seem more ignominious or hardly more incomprehensible than that which will show that at a vital epoch of this War we tried to keep in power a man whose every act showed him to be a most dangerous enemy to this country and of the Allies. What is to be said of those who commit these blunders—not blunders of omission or blunders of ignorance, but blunders of intention? Are they still to continue to lead this country from one disaster to another? If these words have no effect on this House, I will appeal to larger audiences outside. I will appeal to the men of the Dominions, who have sent the flower of their manhood to fight the enemies of their country. Their reason for fighting was inspired by the highest ideals of humanity; they have fought for the future of liberty, and I will appeal to their kith and kin to use their power and influence to see that men shall be hurled from their office who, month after month, at a vital epoch of the War, carried out a policy so blind and so monstrous as to be almost incredible.

8.0 P.M.

I will next proceed to consider one or two other rulers of this country. There is the senior Member for the University of Dublin (Sir E. Carson). I will say little about him. He is supposed to be a kind of traditional enemy of all things Nationalist, but I believe he is a man of power, and if I am disappointed with him in anything at all it is that he has not evidenced that power sufficiently in the position he holds. He found entrance to the Cabinet for the sole reason that he was a great dynamic force, but he has descended from that and become a mere trumpeter of the propaganda of this Government. That is a sufficient criticism of him. Who are the great leaders of the military forces of this country? We have a Minister for War who is almost a nonentity—I mean a nonentity in the consideration and direction of great military affairs. I have no doubt he is a most estimable country gentleman, the embodiment of all the virtues of that excellent class, but is that sufficient reason for making him Minister of War and putting him in the position held by the Duke of Wellington, and by men like Soult and Carnot in France—men who in that position have been great organisers of victory? I believe the best praise or the best defence that has been given of the Minister for War is that he is practically a nullity. Remember all these are not the mistakes of peace, when a Government can continue for months making blunder after blunder, or committing ineptitude after ineptitude. Mistakes here mean deaths—deaths of tens of thousands—and they mean defeat. I say the men who have put Lord Derby in power, and who maintain him in power, are contributory to that defeat.

Let us proceed. We have at the head of the Navy, or, at any rate, as one of the great directors of the Navy, Sir John Jellicoe. The Navy has always been a mystery. It has shrouded itself in mystery, and therefore you can only judge it by results. Those results have not been encouraging. If I were an inhabitant of another sphere, and were suddenly to descend to this country, and wished to get guidance as to the character of the men, I would find from one small remark of Sir John Jellicoe's a beam of light which descended to the depths of his character. Sir John Jellicoe, as recently as 24th October, said, "There is no need for anxiety; the War is almost to an end." The Germans have marched over the Tagliamento, and the fate of the Allies is trembling now in the scale. And "there is no need for anxiety; the War is almost to an end." I hope sincerely his words will not come true; or, if they do, they will not have a meaning which he never intended, and which would be a satire on his judgment. Remember this, that these are the great directors of the nation. The man who says "There is no need for anxiety; the War is almost to an end," either believes those words or he does not. If he does not believe them, he has no right to utter them; for whatever we may think of the Prime Minister, who administers the opium dope of optimism, that is certainly not work for a fighting sailorman. Therefore, logically, we must conclude that he did believe those words. But note the enormous importance of this: If he believed those words he believed them on the evidence of far greater material than any of us possess. They were the expression of a judgment on which the fate of this country depends; and what are we to think of the brain power, what are we to think of the quality of intellect of a man who, surveying the whole field, with all this knowledge at his hand, comes to such a miserable conclusion as to say. "There is no cause for anxiety; the War is almost at an end." Remember that on his judgment depend movements, and on movements depend battles, and if the judgment is fundamentally wrong, how can you expect the outcome to be right. I say for that one phrase alone, which indicates his character, that man should go.

Let us take still another, Sir William Robertson. Chief of the General Staff. Again I would typify that man's quality of mind by a phrase of his own. Recently he joined the chorus of fulsome praise of Lord Kitchener, and I would say, touching that name, that his deeds live after him. I will speak nothing of his character, for he is dead, but one is entitled still to discuss his public character and his performances. When the history of this War is written, Lord Kitchener will be seen to have been the fatal man—a man of limited ideas, of obstinacy, of blindness, who in a critical time not merely led the country wrong, but positively and determinedly refused to allow it to right itself. He is one of the great artisans of those defeats which are now occurring. But it has become fashionable to praise him. It is one of the characteristics of this country that when a man in a great public situation has made blunders, which in any other country in the world would cause him, at any rate, to lose his position of power, it is a sort of etiquette, or perhaps a form of cunning, to cover his defeat with flowers and to reward him with distinctions.

If the hon. Member is referring to the late Lord Kitchener, he has nothing whatever to do with the Third Reading of this Bill. He has been dead some time; you might leave him alone.

I am using that to point to what refers directly to the Third Reading of the Bill, which is concerned with the conduct of the War, and that is the calibre of Sir William Robertson, who occupies one of the most responsible posts in this country. Coming to Sir William Robertson, remember that he is the director of military operations of this country. He said that Lord Kitchener never studied any problem, but solved it at once by intuition. Can you imagine any man in a responsible position such as Sir William Robertson's, on whose judgment the life of this country depends, uttering words so inept as to put it as a form of praise that a great military leader never thought of the problems with which he had to deal, but jumped to conclusions without thinking. Never in the whole history of any military leader of success has such a phrase as that been uttered.

Let us come now to General Smuts, who was brought from South Africa as one of the new men who would vivify this country, pouring the new wine of his energy into the old bottles of a played out system. By some fatal happening, I do not know where it arises, when once a man enters into that circle he seems to lose the qualities for which alone he was selected and for which the demand of the country had placed him in that circle. I knew General Smuts at one time as a man of great capacity, clear mind and rapid decision. Since he has become a member of the War Cabinet, I ask what has been done, what has he done by any valid contribution which has helped the Allies to win the War? All I can see that he has done is to go about as the satellite of the Prime Minister, to give the opium dope of optimism, and to make speeches equally fallacious and sometimes even more inept. Even as late as 4th October, General Smuts said, "The Germans are beaten. We know it. I believe they know it themselves." There again, on the judgment of these men acts must follow; and if their judgment is so hopelessly astray how can you expect those acts will be such as to secure victory?

That being the character of the men who are leading, I invite the House to proceed to put them out of office. If it be asked whom you are going to place in their positions, I will endeavour to give the answer to that before I sit down. There are times in the history of nations when they must take conscience of themselves and when even the boldest decisions may be the most prudent. I have seen often in history and I have known the shores of great nations strewn with the wreckage of its prudent men. I would say what is necessary now to save the chances that remain of victory is first of all that there should be an entirely new spirit introduced into the Government— not this Government, but the Government which will replace it. It is necessary in the first place that there should be unity of command. That I asked for in this House months ago, and it was received with the usual derision. But it has been asked for lately by the French Government. It has been asked for in America and it will soon be seen—I hope not before it is too late—to be one of the essentials to the winning of this War. After unity of judgment there should be one great plan evolved, clear in all its main lines, so as to give a perpetual stimulus even to the people themselves, and carried out determinedly and inevitably so to speak, point by point, so that as the execution of the plan progresses we shall have the assurance of victory. That, which would seem to be elementary, has never yet been done, even after three years of unexampled fighting. The third thing is that these onslaughts on the Western Front, in the manner in which they are conducted, should be brought to an end; and if they were really originated by the officer there commanding, General Haig, and were not forced upon him, that he should give way to a man more capable of seeing the whole conditions of modern warfare, more endowed by that something of genius which will lift this War of the trenches, this ding-dong struggle with the Germans, into something not after their own system and following at second-rate their own methods. That is also necessary if the Allies want to save the chances which remain to secure final victory. Another point is that they must defeat the submarine menace. They must defeat it not by speeches in this House or at the Albert Hall or by forgetting it under the opium dope of optimism, but by having plans which are valid and real, by evolving something, even by invention, which will defeat it. Otherwise the submarine menace will defeat them.

Another point which is necessary to victory is that the aeroplane fleet should be developed to an extent and a power hitherto almost undreamt of, and in saying that I am again putting forward and trying to reinforce an argument which I brought up in this House not merely months ago, but years ago, and of which now, for the facts have proved it, I can say that if that system had been adopted when first put forward in this House it would have meant already the termination of this War. But a great act of energy, organisation and effort which three years ago would have meant the termination of this War is totally inadequate now, because what is here suggested the Germans have done, and they are driving home with the utmost energy their aeroplane construction and are concentrating upon that as a new arm of attack. Here in this House, not only has the Government refused up to this time to adopt this idea, but it is still hesitating over a question which is elementary to the subject—the formation of an Air Ministry in order to carry out this plan. I could touch upon a dozen topics, which in the actual events of the War have proved to be of great importance, where these arguments were brought forward in this House and where they were rejected by the Government and yet where now it has been made evident by the events of the War themselves that they were not only important, but almost vital to the winning of the War. I say that these, which I will call my plans, should be adopted even now, should be adopted in their entirety, and carried out with energy.

Finally, if it is found that the Government is not capable of carrying out these plans or rising to a new kind of contemplation, a new mode of energy, a revolt from all those traditions which are binding it down, and a breaking away from the grooves which mean ultimate disaster, we must not merely sweep away that Government but, perhaps, sweep away that system of government. Then I would invite the House to proceed to the formation of a committee of public safety, and to entrust me, for one, with their nomination. I am not one of those who believe so little in the power and intellect of these condominiums as to think that the ineptitude of which we have had such a spectacle for three years represents the height of their intellectual power. There is really no argument more foolish than that if you get rid of these men, whom would you put in their places? I have no doubt that even to-day in the Army there is many a man with a talent perhaps of Marlborough, or even of Napoleon, who is being held down and injured by bad notes from his superior officers because his ideas fail to fall in with their stereotyped and imitative notions. New men must be found if the cause of the Allies is to be saved. If this House remains deaf to these warnings as it has done for months, and if the Government fail to act, then I believe that events are rapidly preparing in this country which will make it far more feasible than now appears evident that new men in any case will take their places on the Government Bench. I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name:

["That this House resolves that, on account of repeated failures in the field of foreign affairs; mistakes of the gravest kind in military operations due to want of foresight and want of decision on the part of the War Cabinet; the want of success of the Navy in preventing raids, far from their bases, by German warships and the inefficiency of the means intended to cope with the submarine danger; the inability to give the necessary stimulus to the production of aeroplanes on a scale large enough to secure victory and the resistance shown to the adoption of feasible schemes to accomplish this purpose; the incompetence, the inconsistency, and the want of good faith exhibited in the government of Ireland; the habit of concentrating attention, not on the growing German menace, but on Parliamentary and Press manœuvres, the Government has lost the confidence of this House; and the House declares that the time has come for calling in men of greater intellectual power, integrity of character, and determination of purpose in order to lead the country out of a difficult pass to some more reassuring prospect of success."]

I do not propose to follow the hon. Member (Mr. Lynch) into the sphere of high politics into which he has taken us in the course of his speech. He has dealt with the failings of a largo number of members of the present Administration, but after he had exhausted his list, I should say there are still about sixty left to whom he made no reference at all, and if I were to continue that discussion it might go on for a considerable time. I desire to bring forward one or two immediately practical matters in regard to the Ministry of Munitions and certain industrial questions under the control of that Ministry the Ministry of Munitions to-day has become, directly and indirectly, an enormous employer of labour. It would not be an exaggeration to say that there are from 3,000,000 to 4,000,000 men directly or indirectly con- trolled by the Ministry. It is a matter of the utmost importance that industrial peace and goodwill should be maintained. I have often urged in this House that if it is going to be done, there must be certain conditions of peace before the peace can be maintained. We have at this moment a much better atmosphere, in which there is far less industrial tension than there was some time back. This is, therefore, a good time for the Ministry of Munitions steadily to review the position and to see what can be done not only to remove discontents, but to prevent in future the accumulation of discontents. It is important to remember—I say this in a general way—that labour is very different from machinery, and cannot be treated as if it were a piece of machinery. Labour is not at all in the same category as pig-iron. Labour has passions, prejudices, hopes, fears, jealousies and suspicions. In that respect it exactly resembles Government Departments, and Even members of the present Administration. All that has to be taken into account In dealing with a most important phase of the work of the Ministry of Munitions.

I hold no brief for the present Minister of Munitions I believe he has his personal and political detractors—I am not concerned with them one way or the other —but in my opinion he has brought courage and a certain quality of imagination to the task of dealing with labour questions since he became Minister of Munitions. Because of that, the situation has perceptibly improved, and I hope he will go on in the same direction. The Ministry of Munitions is hampered in that it has not only to accept responsibility for its own faults—certainly I have not spared bringing forward its faults—but it also has to bear the responsibility for faults or bungling in other directions and in other Government Departments. I saw, for example, the other day the report of a deputation from the munition workers at Woolwich in regard to the extreme difficulties experienced in respect of the food supplies there. You get a workman tired out and apt to be irritable at times, seeing his wife and children forming a long food queue outside a shop. Very often the womenfolk have to wait from half to three-quarters of an hour in the expectation that they may obtain a supply, and when they reach the shop they find, perhaps, that the supplies are exhausted and they cannot obtain the things they need. That is due to bad distribution, and although the responsibility may not primarily rest upon the Ministry of Munitions, it does react against the Ministry in the sense that it creates unrest and dissatisfaction among the workers under the control of that Department.

The other day I brought to the attention of the House the fact that in Birmingham the local police actually set up the habit of visiting the house of any munition worker who was absent from his work. The Ministry of Munitions entirely disclaimed responsibility for the visits of the Birmingham police, which were not denied, and I am quite sure that the Ministry is not responsible. But it would have to bear the responsibility in the sense that if that sort of thing were to be continued, if that sort of industrial Prussianism were to go on, it would certainly create difficulties so far as the Department is concerned against which they wish to guard. It is all the more necessary that we should avoid needless friction and irritation of that kind, because there are the psychological aspects of the matter; the long systematic overworking and the fact that people get weary, stale, and irritable. I would like to ask the Department how far the recommendations that were made by the Commissioners who inquired into industrial unrest are being carried out? There were various Commissions set up in different parts of the country to inquire into the state of labour unrest, to ascertain its cause, and, if possible, to discover its cure. They found, for instance, that there had been a big rise in the cost of living and a falling oft' in purchasing power, and they laid down a large number of things, twelve or thirteen different questions, which were having this adverse effect, and were helping to create unrest. I hope it has been possible on the part of the Ministry and of other Departments to grapple with many of these questions, and to get something done.

However, I am not going to speak any further on the general aspect of this matter. I say again that in my opinion the present period of quiet gives a chance to review the whole situation. I believe that a good beginning has been made. I am quite sure that the last amending Munitions Bill was entirely a step in the right direction. I am convinced that the Ministry does not regret that step, and I am also convinced that large numbers of the workpeople have responded to what was done at that time, and I am hopeful that the Ministry may see its way to go forward on the same good road, which I believe to be the right road, and which I have urged again and again. The point I take first is the question of the leaving certificates, which were abolished by the last Amending Bill. I should like to ask the Parliamentary representative whether any industrial upset has been caused as the result of the withdrawal of these leaving certificates. I am told that the effect has been very small indeed, that the number of workpeople who wanted to go from one part of the country to another has been very small, and I should be glad to hear what information the Department has to throw on the question. It would not have been very surprising if in the first week or two there had been out of the enormous number of men at any rate some portion who, because they had been held back all these years, might wish to go to another part of the country to do munition work. I believe I should be much nearer the mark if I said that not more than a few hundred did in point of fact desire to leave and did go in that time. There is one small point, but yet an important one to a number of men who are employed in munition works. I refer to sea going engineers. They may be at work in a munitions works and get a chance to undertake engineering on board ship. They have at present to give a week's notice, which may mean that they lose the ship to which they would otherwise go. There would be a very simple remedy, because I am quite sure that it is not desirable that these men should lose a ship, and it would be to apply a special Order, under Sections 2 and 3 of the 1917 Act, specially exempting seagoing engineers and making special provisions in their case. I think that could be done, and I bring the suggestion to the notice of the Department.

The next point I would refer to is the question whether, now that the leaving certificates have been abolished, employers are setting up private leaving certificates arrangements of their own. I am glad to believe that this custom is not very widespread, but I have received complaints from Sheffield, Coventry, and other places that employers are practically entering into arrangements with each other, the effect of which would be to destroy the value of that industrial freedom conferred on the workpeople by the last amending Act. That is to say, they set up private understandings with each other that if you will not employ any men who may come to you, we for our part will not employ any men coming to us; and the effect of such an arrangement is, although the leaving certificate legally is no longer in existence, to defeat the object of the House and the Ministry of Munitions, and I hope, in so far as that is being done, a very strong line indeed Will be taken about it by the Ministry of Munitions itself. There are a number of restrictions which remain, some of them under the Defence of the Realm Act, in regard to the holding out of the bribe of higher wages by employers, and so on to lure away workpeople from other places. Seeing that the withdrawal has caused so little upset, why should the Department not waive the remaining restrictions and see how far industrial freedom can be restored without having any serious or adverse consequences? There is need for a clear statement, at any rate, as to how far the workman is free at present and how far he is not free under the Defence of the Realm Acts in regard to changing his position, and so on. There is room for a clear statement as to the restrictions which have gone as to any restrictions which will remain and as to the future proposals of the Government in this respect.

One of the changes brought about by the removal of the leaving certificate was that the Minister of Munitions found that he had to level up the wages of the skilled workpeople; otherwise he was rather frightened that many of them would leave their job in order to get jobs as semi-skilled workmen doing some automatic process and really receiving higher wages than the skilled workman himself. An attempt in that direction has been made by granting an increase in wages of 12½ per cent., issuing a sort of 12½ per cent. advance Order, which applies to certain of these skilled men, and I am afraid that 12½ per cent. has caused, and is causing, a good deal of feeling and of disturbance in various directions. Perhaps; the Parliamentary Secretary will throw some light on that matter. There is, first of all, some unrest because there is a good, deal of doubt as to the classes of workpeople to whom this Order applies. Some of the skilled workers are in and some appear to be left out, and, of course, all who are left out desire very much to be brought in. The result is that there is some feeling in regard to classes of workpeople, like coppersmiths and electricians, and also in regard to skilled workers, working at a district rate lower than the rate for fitters and turners. There really is need for a more complete statement in regard to this matter than we have had yet. I believe also there is some feeling in regard to lesser skilled workers. Perhaps to-night some statement which will make the matter clear may be made by the Parliamentary Secretary.

I wish to refer to the question of military service so far as these skilled men are concerned. We have had cases brought before magistrates—one in London—where the magistrates have laid it down that these special protection certificates have no legal sanction, and the men are anxious to know where they stand precisely on this matter. Speeches have also been made by the present Director of National Service which have rather increased the uncertainty and doubt and to some extent the unrest, because of the fear lest this protection certificate method should be applied to all trades, and all men should be passed into a kind of Army Reserve. Many of these workpeople want to know more clearly what their position is in this respect, and there is a good deal of friction still—there always has been—in regard to the calling up of individual men where it is believed that the military authorities are overriding what is understood to be the agreement with the Ministry of Munitions. Many of these individual cases cause a great deal of rather bad feeling in the factories, and really, in this respect at any rate, there has not been a great deal of improvement in the general position.

Although they get less, there are still a good many small pettifogging prosecutions before the munitions tribunals. Some of the bad firms take advantage of the Munitions Act in order to get done that which they ought to be able to get done for themselves in regard to discipline in the works. In many towns whereas firms where the conditions are best and where the relations between the employers and the workpeople are best hardly ever have to resort to this method of maintaining discipline, bad firms, where discipline is not good and where the relations between employers and employed are strained, constantly send their workpeople to the Munitions Court and get them fined. They really use the Munitions Court to get done that which they ought to be able to do themselves. The workpeople resent this very much. They regard it as Prussianism. If you take the aggregate loss of work over these prosecutions, it is a great waste of time. I would strongly urge that something might be done by means of a circular, now that the Ministry is really trying to grapple with these questions. At any rate, the Ministry ought to see that small, tinkering prosecutions are entirely brushed aside, and, if cases do come before these Courts at all, that they are really bad, indefensible cases. In this way the Ministry would be doing a great deal to restore a larger and fuller measure of freedom. I wish to say a word or two about the suspension of women workers, through no fault of their own and without pay during suspension. Despite the strong recommendations of the Commissioners on Industrial Unrest in the London district, these suspensions appear to have increased rather than have decreased. I will read what the Commissioners said: of notice. On the other hand, if she looks upon herself as still in the employment of the firm and waits on in the hope of again starting work, she is liable to be suspended indefinitely without payment, and she cannot claim unemployment benefit, as she is not in a position to register at the employment exchange. That is the actual position at the present time, and I ask the Parliamentary Secretary (Mr. Kellaway), who I believe is personally sympathetic on this question, either to give us an answer to-night or to promise that the Department will go into the matter and see what can be done.

I now come to a matter which, despite good feeling, is causing some unrest and unsettlement in the munition districts. I refer to the question of women doing the work of skilled men. The Ministry has ruled that under the statutory orders and rules women on skilled work are not entitled to receive the increases granted by the Committee on Production to men, because the Order states that "the women shall be paid the time rates of the tradesmen whose work they undertake," while the awards of the Committee on Production state that "increases are not to apply to or affect time rates, except as regards payment for overtime." As a result, the difference between the pay of men and women on skilled work now amounts to 13s. a week exclusive of the recent 12½ per cent. advance. Therefore, for all practical purposes the rate of the skilled men has been adversely affected by the introduction of women in contravention of the agreement. As that proceeds, the temptation to employers to dismiss skilled men and to take on women to do the work at a lower rate of wages will become more and more. It is a distinct contravention of the undertaking repeatedly given by the Government to the skilled men when they agreed to abrogate their rights and restrictions for the period of the War. I believe it is a violation of the pledge given in L 2, and, of course, there is increasing difficulty in enforcing the payment of full rates unless the advances are also paid, as anyone will see. The matter affects women, but it affects the skilled men even more, because the men's conditions may easily be endangered by unfair forms of competition.

The position of skilled men in the aircraft industries has not been safeguarded. The bulk of the women in the aircraft districts have replaced wholly rated men, and practically they receive nothing approaching the men's rates. That is causing feeling among the men because they know if the women are doing skilled work, but not receiving the rates for skilled work, they will more and more be brushed aside and the women put in in defiance of the pledges of the Government that there was really going to be equal payment for equal work as between men and women. Women on semi-skilled work have great difficulty in getting fair rates. I am also informed that women on premium bonus during the probation period have the utmost difficulty in getting the same amount as is paid to the men. These difficulties are increasing and many of the employers seem anxious to aggravate them by increasing the number of women, provided they can get them to do the same work as the men at a lower rate of wage.

The Government has repeatedly laid down the principle that if a woman can do the same work as a man she is entitled to receive the same pay as a man—that is to say, that the question of sex ought not to enter into industry at all. The worker ought to be paid for the work, whether man or woman, and should not be paid less because she is a woman if she has done the same work as a man. I think that that principle is just as important from the standpoint of men as that of women. Large numbers of women throughout the country are working as Government examiners and have undergone special training for this work and are receiving wages ranging from 25s. to 30s. a week. They are replacing men examiners in various grades and their wages are in most cases at least 25 per cent. below the wages paid to the male examiners of the same class who are doing the same work. For instance, at Bristol, where the women's work was admitted by the representatives of the Munitions Inspection Department to be absolutely equal to that of the men, third-class women examiners were being paid at the rate of 25s. for a 48 hours week, while male examiners of the same class were paid 41s. for a 48 hours week, in spite of the admission of the Department regarding equality of the work, and the award is only at rate of 30s. for a 48 hours week. It is 5s. of an advance, but it still leaves a substantial inequality.

I desire also to complain of the long delay in issuing the consolidating Order. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions is pledged to issue this Order, because there have been certain understandings with deputations that went to see him. On 29th June there was a draft Order consolidating the provisions of the promised Orders relating to girls in munition works. It was submittted to the Ministry of Munitions by a standing committee of unions representing the women. On 4th July a meeting of the unions was held to consider the matter. A memorandum expressing the position of the Unions Committee as regards the consolidating Order was sent to the Ministry, and representatives of the unions met the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry on 9th August and discussed the memorandum with him. At this interview the Parliamentary Secretary expressed his approval of many of the claims put forward and gave the unions a definite promise on at least several of the points raised and stated that the matter would be dealt with as soon as possible. In spite of the repeated representations made by the union, this Order has not yet been issued. It is really a very important matter that these various Orders, sometimes almost conflicting Orders, should be simplified and consolidated, so that people may know where they really stand in regard to all these various matters.

The last point to which I will refer is a point of importance on which I hope we shall hear something from the Parliamentary Secretary to-night. When the trade unionists gave up their rules and restrictions for the period of the War it was on the very definite pledge that these rules and restrictions were going to be restored when the War was over. It is felt, however, that none of the laws that have been passed, including the Munitions Act, put these pledges in a very satisfactory way from the legal point of view, and when the last amending Munitions Bill was brought forward some of us put down a large number of Amendments in order to have these pledges carried out. We did not press those Amendments because the amending Bill was carried through very hurriedly. It was a question either of passing it through in an afternoon or not passing it through at all, and as it seemed to us that this amending Bill was entirely a step in the right direction we did not want to put any difficulty in the way of getting it put through swiftly, but we raised the point, and I think that the Minister of Munitions promised on that occasion, and that this will be found in the OFFICIAL REPORT, that he would consider the whole matter again in the autumn and see what could be done to give more definite legal effect to the various promises that have been made.

So I say that a short new Bill is urgently needed which ought to incorporate briefly these points. First, that the suspension of the Trade Union customs should cease immediately at the end of the War; second, that compulsory arbitration should cease immediately at the end of the War; third, that full facilities for Trade Unions to prosecute employers for failure to restore conditions should remain after the War, that the orders regulating women's wages should remain in force during the emergency period, so that employers would be really violating the understanding if, during the period of unsettlement, they are allowed to step in and in effect defeat the intention to restore the old position. There is a number of small matters which would arise when the whole matter comes to be discussed. Whether it is possible to go back to the conditions that obtained in 1914 may be a debateable point. There is no doubt that the Government is pledged in honour to make that the starting point of anything that can be done, and if there is any bargain at all to be made, so far as the organisations would be concerned, the starting point must be the redemption by the Government of its own pledges. Otherwise everything will be in absolute chaos. Therefore I hope to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary that he does intend to do something in regard to that point.

I did not anticipate that this discussion would come on so early in the evening, and there are some points with regard to which I may not be able to give an adequate reply to my hon. Friend, but I will deal with the points which he has put, with such information as I have at the moment, and if there are any points which I do not succeed in covering I will take the opportunity of communicating the information later on. I am glad that my hon. Friend had this opportunity of raising this matter on the Consolidated Fund Bill. I was glad to hear from him, as a man who speaks as he does with some authority on general labour questions and policy, the statement that there is prevailing now in the labour world a much better atmosphere than there was a month ago, and I was glad to hear from him the tribute, which he paid to my right hon. Friend when he said that he felt that this improved atmosphere was to a considerable extent due to the boldness and imagination with which my right hon. Friend dealt with the labour position facing him when he entered on his new office I have had the opportunity now, for two years, of working in the Ministry of Munitions, closely in connection with the labour side of the work. I have passed through some exceedingly rough water. We have been faced at various times with industrial situations of the gravest possible character, but I do not hesitate to say that, looking back over the two years, the labour situation has steadily improved, has become sounder, and, if I may use the expression, more patriotic. The attitude of the leaders of labour in this country, and that of the rank and file, is steadily becoming more patriotic, thereby showing a clearer sense of the gravity of the time and the country's needs. There is no need for anyone to despair, or take a pessimistic view of the great labouring classes of this country. As their sacrifices become greater, so their patriotism and readiness to shoulder those sacrifices are increased. The recent events in South Wales have proved that. In what may be regarded as one of the hotbeds of unrest and pacificism in this country the rank and file are absolutely unshaken in their support of those fighting in the trenches.

9.0 P.M.

My hon. Friend and I have, on occasion, not seen eye to eye with one another in regard to the attitude of the Ministry of Munitions on labour questions. If I have a criticism to make of my hon. Friend it is that he who carries such heavy guns has used them upon targets which were hardly worthy of his weapons. On this occasion he has gone deeper and has given us something to discuss by the constructive criticism which he has offered. First, there is the difficulty created by the scarcity and dearness of food. That is not a matter which comes under the control of this Department, as my hon. Friend has said; still, it is true that as great employers we feel the result of the irritation which is caused by the scarcity and dear-ness of food. What the Department can do and is doing in connection with its own factories is to establish canteens where food can be provided at the most reason- able prices possible, and of good quality. Only last week in the House it was made a criticism against the Ministry of Munitions that in the case of one of our great munition factories in the North of England, we were supplying food at such a reasonable price and excellent quality that the local restaurant keepers could not compete with us. The reply I gave on that occasion was that our first duty was to the munition workers. We are sorry that any private trader should be injured by our activities in that direction, but we must recognise that our first duty is to the munition workers. If any Member of the House pays a visit to the admirable canteens of the Canteens Committee, he will see the wonderful value, in the circumstances, that we are able to provide in many of these factories. If any hon. Member, making one of these visits, offers any practical suggestions for still further improving our provision, we shall be only too glad to receive them.

Among the subjects which have to be considered there is the question of housing. My hon. Friend (Mr. Anderson) did not raise that branch of our difficulties this afternoon, but here we have got what constitutes really the greatest difficulty which the Ministry has to face, as the result of the various needs of the War. Great numbers of workers who have been moved from their homes have been placed in an almost intolerable position in consequence of the heavy burden thrust upon the housing facilities of the various districts. When we bring a man from his ordinary resorts, from his own family, and plant him down in a strange district, requiring him to work under great pressure, it is an almost intolerable thing to add to all that the living in crowded and unhealthy conditions. In Barrow we were faced with a state of things which, in peace time, would have been absolutely intolerable; but the Ministry of Munitions, as I indicated in an answer I gave this afternoon, have, even under the strain of war conditions, recognised that this problem has got to be dealt with. We have now succeeded in getting a scheme started under which a thousand houses are to be built. I would ask the House to believe that, subject to the conditions that the War imposes upon us—the scarcity of labour and of materials—the Ministry of Munitions are doing their very best to make a practical contribution towards a solution of this difficulty. We have received great assistance from the Billeting Board, which was set up under the recent Billeting Act, and we have been able in that direction to make a really substantial alleviation of the conditions. I have here a list of the places where the Ministry is now carrying out housing schemes, and those members who know the difficulty of obtaining building material, and the scarcity of building labour, and the demand made on our limited resources for absolutely essential war requirements, will admit that we have achieved something pretty considerable. We are promoting housing schemes in some twelve different parts of the country, and as soon as it is possible for us to do so we shall extend and increase the number of those schemes. My hon. Friend referred to an unpleasant state of things which occurred in Birmingham, where it was discovered that the police had been visiting the houses of munition workers who had been keeping bad time. My hon. Friend raised that in the House in the form of a question, and I told him then that the Ministry of Munitions had no responsibility for, or any knowledge of, that action of the local police, and I was glad to be able to tell him that such action had been stopped on the initiative of the local council. So far as I am aware no similar practice has been attempted in any other part of the country.

The police in Birmingham are under the control of a Watch Committee, and so far as we can fix the responsibility on any one authority, I suppose it is the Watch Committee. The satisfactory point is that, without any pressure from outside, the local authority has taken steps to put a stop to this kind of action. I am not aware that the practice has been going on in any other part of the country, nor, so far as the Ministry is concerned, is it one of which we would approve. My hon. Friend was anxious to know the position of the Government in regard to the restoration of trade union conditions after the War. I am not sure that the Munitions Bill which my right hon. Friend has promised would be the best place for dealing with this large post-war problem. I think myself that those will have to be dealt with in a very large and bold spirit, and I think they will require a measure for themselves. The promise which my right hon. Friend gave of a Bill to be brought in during this Session of Parliament to cover the points which were left uncovered by the last Bill stands, and a Committee of the Ministry is now engaged in drafting the Clauses of that Bill. Indeed, it is already in draft, and we are now going through that Bill to see what Amendments it will be necessary to make.

With regard to the case of sea-going engineers, I am glad to give my hon. Friend an undertaking that we shall be prepared to make a special Order dealing with that difficulty. My hon. Friend called attention to a decision which was recently given by a London magistrate, in which the legal validity of our protecting certificates was questioned. As to their legal validity I am not particularly concerned. The point is that those exemption certificates do, in fact, give absolute protection to the men to whom they are issued and by whom they are rightly held. If my hon. Friend or any other hon. Member would bring to our attention any case in which those exemption certificates do not give the exemption to which the man is entitled, we will see that the exemption is in fact given to him. I am not going to argue with the magistrate as to his law. All my consideration is not the legal position, but the position in fact, and in fact those certificates do give the protection which is necessary to the men who rightfully hold them. On the question of the prosecutions before tribunals my hon. Friend developed a theme which he has developed before, and in regard to which I find myself very largely in agreement with him. I have issued an instruction in the Ministry with regard to a large number of cases which used to come before tribunals on the initiative of the local officer of the Ministry, or the employer, that in regard to the great body of those cases no prosecution shall be launched except with my own immediate consent. I took that action, and it was pretty strong action to take, because I recognised that local officials, or local employers, were not necessarily in a position to judge what is the right course to take in regard to many of these cases. Although it has in fact thrown a very onerous and heavy task on me, I would rather have to discharge that than a number of men should have to appear before what they regard as a form of Police Court for offences which in ordinary times would be treated by the ordinary disciplinary methods of the shop. My hon. Friend will remember that the Munitions Act has severely limited the powers of employers to take cases of this kind into Court, and so far as I am aware that limitation has not had the effect of diminishing good discipline in properly-managed shops. A most difficult point to answer was the point about the suspension of women in a number of munition works.

Before the hon. Gentleman deals with that, may I ask whether the Order which he has promised with regard to sea-going engineers goes so far as to enable a man appointed to a ship to leave his employment in a munition factory at once, or on short notice, so that he may not delay the sailing of the ship?

I would not like to answer that offhand. But that is the point we have in mind, and I think when the hon. Gentleman sees the Order he will have no cause of complaint with the contents.

From my daily experience, having regard to the scarcity of sea-going engineers and of the tremendous consequences of delaying ships and perhaps losing a convoy or a week's time by a few hours' delay, I would ask him to most seriously consider whether it would not be in the national interest to enable sea-going engineers to leave immediately on showing that they have been appointed to a ship?

I fully realise the force of my hon. Friend's statement, and, indeed, it is just that difficulty we desired to meet by the Order, with which I think he will have no complaint when he sees it. With regard to the very difficult class of cases of the suspension of women engaged on munition work, those cases are principally due to shortage of materia. I am not myself acquainted with the particular instance to which the hon. Member referred. I cannot say whether that was due to shortage of material. But from the time during which the women were suspended I should have thought it could not be a case of shortage of material. We realise that these are cases which cannot be dealt with on the ordinary basis of a strict interpretation of the rights of employers. I should be really glad to hear of any practical proposal from the hon. Member as to how we could best deal with cases of that kind. We have already done a good deal to meet the difficulty where women lost time owing to air raids, and the conditions have greatly improved. If a similar difficulty can be shown to exist in regard to other classes of cases, I am sure my hon. Friend will not find the Ministry unsympathetic.

There is the very technical point about the payment of equal pay for equal work to women. Stated in that form it is impossible to disagree with it. I had this case stated, very ably stated, by the representative of the women workers. Where the difficulty always came in was, whether equal pay for equal work both in quality and in amount was meant. If it is meant that the woman who turns out an equal amount of work and of equal quality with that of a man should receive equal pay, I do not think there is anything between us. The Orders of the Ministry dealing with women's wages have been drafted to secure that, but I generally found that those who have been arguing this case on behalf of the women hesitated when it was put to them, Do you mean equal pay for an equal amount of work and of equal quality? I have never found they were prepared to say, "We mean equal pay for equal quality and equal amount." Until they are prepared to say that we cannot possibly come together on that point. I would ask my hon. Friend to believe that it does not necessarily pay the employers. I should not like the impression to get about that there is any considerable number of employers who find that it pays them to put on women rather than to put on men. What we have done in the Ministry, and, I believe, have done with a good deal of success, is to issue Orders regulating the wages of women, and wherever a good case has been shown for the modification of those Orders to have the case considered by a competent tribunal. I am sorry, owing to changes in the holders of offices in the Ministry, there has been some delay in dealing with some cases which were ripe for consideration. The Chairman of the tribunal had resigned, and we had to find a new chairman, and there were one or two other vacancies on the tribunal. I am glad to say that my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock Burghs has now accepted the chairmanship of that tribunal. I know he has set to work on the accumulation of arrears with great energy, and I am confident that, though he may not succeed in meeting all that my hon. Friend and those who think with him desire and think we ought to do, he will succeed in removing the chief part of the grievances which have been put to us in that connection. I was asked by my hon. Friend if I could give the House some information as to the extent to which the abolition of leaving certificates has been followed by a movement in the working population. I am glad to be able to tell him that the movement in the ranks of labour has been comparatively slight—certainly not serious; not so considerable as to have any serious effect upon output, it is too early yet to speak with any great confidence, for, after all, the leaving certificate has only been abolished since 15th October. It is quite likely there may be a little more movement as time goes on.

I attribute the comparatively small amount of movement which has taken place up till now largely to the action of the Ministry of Munitions, under the powers given by the last Munitions Act in paying a bonus of 12½ per cent. to the skilled men. Unless the Government had recognised the real grievance of the skilled men—that great outstanding industrial grievance of this War—the most serious industrial anomaly which the War has created—I believe the movement amongst skilled men would have been much more serious than it has been. Those two actions of the Ministry—the abolition of the leaving certificate and the really practical attempt to deal with the anomaly of the comparatively small wages paid to skilled men, on time, have done a great deal to bring about that better feeling in the ranks of labour referred to by my hon. Friend. It is true our action has landed us in a good many other difficulties. Twelve and a-half per cent. has proved very acceptable to those men who have got it; but those who have not got it are making themselves heard, and I am sure they will do so for some time to come. The Ministry is prepared to give a generous interpretation of the pledge to the House. The Minister said, I desire to deal with the anomalous position of the skilled man who has taught and trained the unskilled man, and now sees that the unskilled man whom he has taught and trained is receiving a much larger remuneration than he himself. Within the limits of that pledge the Ministry is prepared to give a generous interpretation, and a Committee in the Ministry is sitting day by day, under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Durham, dealing with what we might call "borderland cases." I think it is quite likely that something more will have to be done in regard to the unskilled and semi-skilled men. But they clearly do not come within the pledge that my right hon. Friend gave to the House.

I submit to my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe, who has pressed this question upon me with great force, and in a way that appeals to my sympathy, that that class of case cannot be said to come within the pledge of my right hon. Friend. How we will deal with this class of case it is not for me to say. Whether it will be referred to the Committee on Production, or whether some general direction will have to be given by the Government, I do not know. But it cannot be said that the case of the semiskilled and unskilled man comes within the pledge which was given by my right hon. Friend. There is one point more. That concerns the consolidating Order. I am told I am personally committed to this consolidating Order. Up to the present time that consolidated Order has not been issued, and that has been due to some cause which "held up" the decision in regard to some of these women wages questions. We were awaiting the completion of the tribunal, and the appointment of the chairman; and we shall impress upon the chairman of the tribunal the imperative need for having that question dealt with rapidly. In regard to these Orders, I quite understand the average labour man wishing them at the bottom of the sea. I hope when we get one consolidating Order it will prove to be simple and easily understood.

I should like to make an observation in regard to the question of the hours of labour. Only yesterday we had a conference at the Ministry, and steps were taken to arrange an experiment in a large number of our national factories as to the effect that a reduction of hours would have on output. That recommendation has, I am glad to say, behind it the backing of the Supply Department. The suggestion is that we should attempt in a certain number of our factories, for over a sufficiently long period, to reduce the hours of labour to between forty and fifty a week, and see what effect that reduction in the hours of labour has upon output. If it proves, as a good many people think it will prove, that you can reduce the hours of labour and still not get any reduction in output, I hope, as a result of that experiment, we shall be able substantially to reduce the hours of labour in munition works throughout the country. I hope the Government will decide that the experiment shall be made, and that the result will confirm those who take the view, that I have taken in the past, that you can, in fact, reduce hours of labour within reasonable limits without bringing about a reduction of output.

The Ministry is doing what lies in its power to carry out the recommendations of the Committee of which you, Sir, were chairman in regard to the establishment of shop committees. Although the case is not by any means easy, nor does it receive that general acceptance from the ranks of labour which one might have expected, I am satisfied, from the experience of shop committees that have been set up, under proper conditions and with a real sympathy and desire to help the working between masters and men, that these committees may do more than any other piece of industrial machinery to get rid of industrial grievances and industrial unrest. Here I would make an observation which will strike those Members of the House who derive their knowledge of labour from the "Morning Post" and similar organs, as rather odd. I see no reason why the shop stewards, those bêtes noirs of the capitalists, should not be brought into this system of shop committees. There is nothing necessarily evil about a shop steward. He has not got horns growing out of his head. He is pretty much like the rest of the workmen. In Woolwich Arsenal we have had for some time a system of shop committees at work, largely composed of shop stewards. I believe that if we were able now, whilst securing and preserving the authority of the trade unions, to bring in these men and harness them, give them a sense of responsibility, and put them on shop committees, we should find that even those sinister figures might make for industrial solidarity, and would really help in the prosecution of the War. But it is an essential thing that where shop committees and local committees are established the Government should carry with them, and the employers should carry with them, the good will of the old-established trade unions in the country. If we were to set up shop committees and at the same time lose the support of the executives and the rank and file, of the old trade unions, we should be losing a good deal more than we should gain. A great deal has already been done. The Report of the Whitley Commission has now been widely discussed throughout the country, and there is a tendency on the part of the best minds of the Labour world to give that Report and its recommendations a fair chance.

I will conclude what I have to say by a recognition which is due from the Ministry of Munitions to the millions of men and women who throughout this War have continued to render loyal service to the country. We had an example of it only within the last few weeks, when it was necessary to call upon a number of men engaged in an exceedingly dangerous occupation to work during the night of an air raid. It was absolutely essential that that particular class of work should be continued. It was dangerous and exceedingly trying work, and an appeal was made for volunteers in a shop—one of our national institutions—to work throughout the night of that air raid. I am glad to say practically 95 per cent. of the men in that shop consented to carry on that dangerous work under the exceeddingly trying conditions which prevailed at that time. This country, whilst it has a right to be proud of its soldiers and sailors, also has a right to be proud of its munition workers, and I should like the rank and file to feel that the House of Commons recognises the obligation which it owes to them.

I am sure the House has listened with much interest to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, and I also feel sure that we are glad to be reassured that the Labour question, so far as regards the Ministry of Munitions, has been greatly improved, and that the hon. Member has given us such a reassuring statement on that point. I do not wish to follow him in that subject. To-day we have listened to a great many speeches upon war aims, and whilst realising the importance of understanding the issues for which we are fighting, I think at the same time we should not forget that we have not yet won the War, and that one of the most important questions for the House is to be assured and to consider whether or not the War is being run efficiently. We have heard a good deal of the question of financial economy. We have also to consider the question of the economy of life, and as to whether the forces placed at the disposal of our military leaders are used to the best advantage. I believe that there is an uneasy feeling growing up in the country, which has recently manifested itself to a certain extent in the Press, that the Government are not carrying on the War with as great an efficiency as we could expect, and as we hoped for. There is a genuine anxiety, because I think it is felt in many quarters that mistakes are condoned, that failures are rewarded, and that there is a cynical indifference displayed by the Government with regard to questions arising in connection with this vital matter. I know it is easy to criticise, but, at the same time, criticism at a time like this is absolutely necessary. It is quite true that the War Cabinet are called upon to bear burdens of the greatest magnitude. It is only right that we should make great allowances in consideration of the enormous tasks which they have to carry and the responsibility which they have to face. At the same time, I think the House has the right, and the country has the right, to demand what are the results which have been achieved as the result of all these activities. Do they justify the hopes and the expectations of twelve months ago? Are the hopes that were aroused at that time when the Government assumed office being adequately and fully realised? There were some of us who believed that the new Government, when it came into office, would carry on the administration with a single eye to the efficiency of the fighting forces, and in all those activities which meant the winning of the War. We thought that there would be a ruthless weeding-out of incompetent persons, that an era of swift decisions would be inaugurated, that there would be no more delay, and that we should not hear the old catchword, "Too late."

What is the position in which the House finds itself to-day? We have seen a large and growing multiplication of offices and officials. We have seen a certain sketchy organisation growing up under the system and control of our Government services. We have seen delay and congestion in the business of the War Cabinet. There was an instance to-day, in reply to a question which I addressed to the Leader of the House with regard to the question of the over- lapping of the Inventions Departments attached to the different Departments of State. I was told that this question was now under examination. I asked a question three months ago on the same subject, and at that time I was told the matter was under consideration. That is one small instance of the way in which the business of the country is hung up and delayed. We also see a central organisation without any proper perspective, and apparently a War Cabinet unable to distinguish between the great problems it has to tackle and the smaller problems which should be relegated to the different Government Departments. So we come back again to the question, What are the results which have been achieved during the last twelve months? And we have now arrived at the stage when we are entitled to know whether the Government themselves are satisfied with the progress that is being made I believe that the confidence of the country is great, its morale is fine and in advance of that of the Government and of our leaders. The miners of South Wales have voted overwhelmingly in favour of the vigorous prosecution of the War. There is no looking back on their part, and we expect the same strenuous behaviour on the part of our leaders. I believe that morale rests on two foundations. In the first place in the firm belief of the righteousness of our cause, and in the second place in the confidence that we possess in the ability and honesty of our leaders, whether political, military, or naval. The only real test of their aptitude and their ability is the efficiency with which Government Departments are run, and we can only judge them on the results they show. After all, in war the only proper criterion is success, rough and ready though that test may be, and I am afraid that too often in this War we have seen the strange phenomenon of reputations built up almost entirely on newspaper reports and paragraphs. We want to see our reputations and careers built up not on these flimsy fabrics, but on the basis of solid achievement in the field and elsewhere.

It is true that the country has placed at the disposal of its leaders the greatest army that has ever been raised, and it has also given them an army the quality of which is superior to any other army fighting at the present time. The Prime Minister the other day described the wonderful fighting qualities which have characterised our troops. If we turn to munitions we also find that that has been, and is still, a great output which was never dreamt of at the commencement of the War. Therefore, it would seem that the only thing we do lack is the proper direction of all these vast resources which the country has placed at the disposal of its leaders, and so far as one can see the only way in which we can arrive at the proper direction is by a process of elimination. It is quite true that during the Civil War in the United States President Lincoln had to change his generals over and over again, and it was only by that process that he at last found the man who could give him victory. I do not think anyone for a moment would suggest that there should be change simply for the sake of change. That is not the point. Every man, whether he is a general, an admiral, or a politician, deserves a fair trial. It may be that he fails once or twice; but there should be some limit set to the period of trial and the number of attempts he has to have to show what he can do.

I think that everyone is proud of the discipline of the British Army. It is the backbone of the Army, and it is one of the qualities of which we can be most proud; yet I venture to ask whether it is not true that, although in the rank and file the discipline is superb, it is very questionable whether that discipline also extends to those at the top, and whether or not the Secretary of State for War has satisfied himself that proper discipline is maintained amongst those in high places in our military organisation. By that I mean whether or not those generals who have proved themselves to be inefficient are still retained in the service of the Army and are still being called upon to give us certain services for which they have apparently shown their ineptitude and incapacity. I think it is a great pity that the Secretary of State for War is not a Member of this House. I think it would be a very good thing if he could come here and answer some of these questions, which no doubt affect the minds of a great many hon. Members. The Under-Secretary for War might satisfy us and give satisfactory replies to questions put to the War Office, but naturally, of necessity, he cannot speak with the same authority as the Secretary of State. The Under-Secretary goes to his Noble Friend the Secretary of State and reports to him the information which is asked for by hon. Members of this House; but by the time he conies back here, after having had conversations with his Noble Friend, we often find that the replies are not at all satisfactory.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman specify a case?

I will give a case. We should very much like to know his view with regard to the Mesopotamia Report. I asked a question this afternoon as to what reasons could be given for the reinstatement of Surgeon-General Sir William Babtie in connection with the stricture passed upon his depot in the report of the inquiry held concerning the Royal Army Medical Corps in Mesopotamia. I must ask my hon. Friend who is responsible for the breakdown of our Royal Army Medical Corps services in the Mesopotamia campaign? The War Office after all this time have not been able to discover who were the parties responsible for that breakdown and for the suffering which was entailed upon our troops there. We are told that Sir William Babtie had appeared before the Army Council and had given his explanation, which was considered satisfactory, and he had been called back to his office. We want to know whether the Secretary of State for War feels that the responsibility rested upon other gentlemen mentioned in the Report? Does it lie with Lord Hardinge, or does it lie with the other medical officers, or does it concern the officers who held office in the Indian Medical Service before the War? I think these are points upon which we require some information. I do not think the matter can be left where it is. We are entitled to know who really are the people who were responsible for the breakdown in the medical service during the early days of the Mesopotamia campaign. That is a fair question to ask. Up to now the War Office have ignored it, or at any rate they have not given us a reply worth anything.

I come to another matter which deals with the Royal Army Medical Corps, and it is in connecton with the Committee of Inquiry which the War Office promised at the end of last Session into the whole question of our Royal Army Medical Corps services in France and in this country. That Committee was appointed, and I believe it has already made inquiries in France and certain inquiries in this country, but so far as I understand it has not yet reported. I should like to know whether or not the Report is going to be presented to the House of Commons or whether it is simply a confidential Report to the Secretary for War? In the second place, I should like to know whether the hon. Gentleman can tell us what were the qualifications of the chairman who was appointed to preside over the deliberations of this Committee? I have been at some pains to find out the qualifications of this gallant officer. He apparently retired from the Service in 1909, but he became Inspector of Infantry from 1914 to 1915, when he again retired from the Army, being at that time, I believe, over seventy years of age. Why this officer was called up again to preside over this most important inquiry when he apparently has no special knowledge of the Royal Army Medical Corps Service is a question which I think we have the right to put. It appears to me that the War Office are not seised of the importance of this question of efficiency, and I think it is quite clear, from the two cases which I have cited, that generals who have been found wanting in certain respects have been placed in most responsible positions when apparently there is no reason for it. When we consider the question of the personnel of the Royal Army Medical Corps as a whole and its general direction. I think the Undersecretary for War must realise the force of my argument, that there can be no real permanent improvement in the Royal Army Medical Corps until the Director-General is placed upon the Army Council. In this matter we have the most retrograde system amongst all the Armies who are fighting in this War. I understand that in the United States the head of the Medical Department in the War Office is responsible directly to the Minister of War. In France the Director-General is an Under-Secretary, and is responsible directly to the Chamber and to the Minister. In this country we have absolutely prostituted and gone back on the old system, which was introduced after the Crimean War owing to the efforts of Florence Nightingale, which allowed the Director-General of the Medical Service direct access to the Secretary for War. It is no use my hon. Friend telling us that Sir Alfred Keogh whenever he likes has -access to the Secretary of State. That is no reply at all, because we know that if Sir Alfred Keogh is represented on the Army Council by a medical layman, the Adjutant-General, and when questions con- cerning medical matters are being discussed at the Army Council, the Director-General of the Medical Service is not necessarily there, and has no right to be there, to give expression to his point of view. I consider that that has led to very great disaster during this War.

We were told by a great general in the Gallipoli that if he had had at his disposal one or two more divisions he would have been able to break through, and could have successfully accounted for the Turks. As a matter of fact, we know that one, and almost two divisions, were lost owing to the bad medical arrangements that were made during that campaign, and that was in a great measure due to the defect in the Medical Department. We have men who have devoted their lives to the study of foreign diseases, men like Sir Ronald Ross and other great medical men who have spent their lives in studying these questions. Were they ever consulted? Was the Director-General himself ever consulted upon these great matters? The same thing happened in Salonika as in. Mesopotamia, and to-day, after all these disasters and blunders, we still find that the War Office absolutely refuses to give the Director-General a seat upon the Army Council. I know that the reply will be given that before the War all these questions were discussed, and that in 1904 Lord Esher's Committee in their Report stated that on account of financial reasons and other reasons the Director-General of Medical Services should be placed under the Adjutant-General and that his branch of the service should be under the Adjutant-General's Department. What did Lord Esher write subsequently on this point—two years after his Report was adopted His words were "how much of the suffering undergone by our soldiers was due to the shortsightedness of my committee will never be known." That was after he had made a most eloquent appeal to the War Office to rectify the mistake which had been made by his committee. That is a very serious matter and I hope we shall hear an explanation from my hon. Friend, and that he will say something more than that he will bring it to the notice of his Noble Friend.

10.0 P.M.

There is one other matter I should like to draw the attention of the House to, and that is that the War Office, in spite of the lessons which might have been learned from the Mesopotamia Report, still persist in their old policy of employing generals who have been sent home after they have failed to carry out with success their operations at the front. I refer to the case of General Sir Archibald Murray who has made a regular pilgrimage during this War. He started, I believe, as chief of the staff in France, and, after being a good time in that post he returned to the War Office as chief of the staff there. I do not know whether he filled it to the satisfaction of the War Cabinet, but later on we find that Sir Wm. Robertson takes over the post, and General Sir Archibald Murray is given command of the forces in Egypt and Palestine. We all know the unfortunate results of the battle of Gaza. Sir Archibald Murray, after that, returned to this country and was decorated. Most people thought he would then go on the retired list, but nothing of the sort happened, and soon we see a paragraph in the papers announcing that he has been appointed to the Aldershot command. I suppose somebody must have been turned out in order to give him that post which, I am informed, is one of the best billets in the whole country. In reply to a question which I addressed to my hon. Friend it was stated that the post had been conferred on Sir Archibald in recognition of the brilliant services he had rendered to the country. If that be so, why was Sir Archibald retired from his command? Is this the kind of efficiency that is demanded by the War Office? We in the House are bound to uphold the Secretary of State responsible for these appointments which are doing a good deal of harm in the country, and are not calculated to improve the moral of our people or of the Army. We have to rely on the morale of the country if we are to win this War, and if the country cannot have confidence that our Secretaries of State will do the right thing and mete out impartial justice not only to the rank and file and to regimental officers but to the highest offices of the Army then we are going to impair the morale of the country and we are going to bring about a very unsatisfactory state of affairs in the Army itself. I feel very strongly about these things. Had I not done so I would not have detained the House so long. But I do hope that the Government will realise that they will have to do something I will not say to restore but to keep up the confidence and moral of the country, they must give proof that they are in earnest, and the only way in which they can do that is by insisting that there shall be efficiency in every Department of the State. Personal considerations should not count in these days. Millions of our brave men are fighting on the various fronts. Enormous issues are at stake in this War and there is absolutely no room at all for personal considerations. If we look back upon what has happened in the War we shall realise that General Murray's case is only one of many. I could quote others, as bad, if not worse. The War Office cannot afford to play with these matters any longer. They have been playing with them for a long time, but the House and the country will now insist that there shall be efficiency all round.

Last week the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) gave us a long discourse on the strategy of the War. I am not going to follow him in that. But for the first time the country seems to have awakened to the fact and to have acquiesced in the doctrine of the single front which has been preached for a long time. We have always been told there is only one front in this War—the Western front—but at last we are beginning to realise that the Western front is not the only front, although it may be the most important one. We were led to believe last year that the offensive on the Somme was going to save Roumania. It did not do so, but Roumania might have been saved if there had been a vigorous offensive from Salonika. Then we want to know about Italy. Is Italy going to be saved? We also want to know what preparations are being made for a possible attack upon the Allied Forces in Salonika, which is probably the next great enterprise which the enemy will try. We would also like to know whether the Government and the War Office are doing their best to improve the overland lines of communication. If the doctrine of a single front is to prevail, then the most essential thing of all is to see that your overland lines of communication are put in order. I have come to the end of my remarks, and there is only one other thing I would say. That is that one of the kinds of efficiency we want, and it is a peculiar kind of efficiency, is the ability to collaborate and co-operate with our Allies. We cannot fight this War entirely on our own, although I suppose it is natural to Englishmen that a certain isolation and difficulty should have been shown over and over again in the course of this War, an inability to collaborate and co-operate with our Allies. This is an Allied War, and it has to be carried on on a basis of co-operation. I sincerely hope that that is a quality of efficiency which will not be overlooked by the Government and by the War Cabinet. I believe, after all, that Parliament has a great responsibility in this matter. We are the trustees for the country in it, and I think it is our business to place our views before the War Cabinet, who are in the last resort the trustees of this House. It is true that they do not consult us, and that they pay very scant attention to anything that this House says or does, but the House will have to insist, as it has done before in the course of this War, upon efficiency, because without efficiency we shall not be able to make the best show and to come out victorious in this great struggle.

I do not think the House will complain, nor do I complain, of the general tone and temper of the speech which has just been delivered by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire. It divides itself naturally into two parts. The first and last parts of the speech, if I remember rightly, consisted of generalities, but the rest of his speech was directed mainly against the administration of the War Office with which I am directly and personally concerned, I gathered from the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend that he did not expect me to reply to the general attacks which he made upon the efficiency of the War Cabinet. I should very much like to reply to him if I had the right to do so, because I do not think the House would agree with him that he has made out any good cause whatsoever against the War Cabinet on the ground of inefficiency. He asked me a great many general questions. He asked if it was true that the War Cabinet was inefficient; if our military forces were used to the best advantage; if there was any anxiety in the country if failures were rewarded; and general questions of that kind. I think I may reply to him very generally, though not for the War Cabinet, that the feeling of confidence in the country is one for which as patriots we ought to be very thankful; that the War is being run with very great efficiency; and that our gallant troops, as well as the high commands, have shown that the spirit of this country is sound at the bottom, and that we will in the long run bring this. War to a successful conclusion. I would ask him—because it is the natural way to reply to general questions of that sort—if he can produce specific instances. He did not do so. I am glad to say that that does not apply to his general attack on the War Office, and I thank him for that. His general attack on the War Office was that first of all he wanted to know whether discipline existed at the top. I am glad to be in a position to state that it does. The very fact, as he confesses, that we send home from the front not only brigadier generals but divisional generals, and men of very high command, shows that we are determined where the lives of soldiers at the front are concerned that the men in high commands should have the same discipline exercised on them as the ordinary soldier, who is himself liable to discipline.

That is obviously a question I cannot answer off-hand, but my hon. and gallant Friend knows perfectly well of his own knowledge that brigadiers and divisional commanders have been sent home in the interests of discipline because they may not have been thought by the Army Commanders and the Field-Marshal Commanding in Chief to be of sufficient competence for the very arduous and difficult work they had to perform. I do not think it is fair of him to come forward here, seeing that he himself has been to the front and knows the extraordinary difficulties which not only private soldiers but generals in high command have to compete with, and with the knowledge that these divisional generals and brigadier-generals have been sent home, to ask the House of Commons to believe that no discipline has been shown in the high commands. If I were to ask him I have no doubt he would say that he does know of divisional generals and brigadier-generals who have been sent home, and, therefore, I do not agree that it is at all proper—indeed, I think it is not right—that with that knowledge in his possession he should endeavour in this House to show that there is a different law for the private soldier from the law which is enacted so far as the higher commands are concerned.

I am coming to those, but I think my hon. and gallant Friend did try to convey that there was a different law administered so far as discipline was concerned, in the case of a private soldier from that administered in the case of the higher command. He produced one or two cases: one, that of Sir Archibald Murray. My hon. and gallant Friend, who is always polite and always gives me notice of these things, gave notice of certain questions dealing with Sir Archibald Murray. He asked what positions Sir Archibald Murray has occupied during the course of this War. I think he will agree that those positions were exceedingly onerous and distinguished posts. The last was General Officer Commanding in Egypt, with a very large Army, with a most difficult and strenuous campaign, which he was called upon practically to originate and initiate after two and a half or three years of the most strenuous work at the head of affairs as Chief of the General Staff of Lord French at the front and as Chief of the Imperial General Staff at the War Office. He was asked to come home. Does my hon. and gallant Friend mean to in sinuate that if we ask a distinguished general, who had occupied all these posts with the confidence of the Government, to accept the command at Aldershot, we are thereby creating a breach of discipline in the British Army? As I pointed out to my hon. and gallant Friend to-day, in the course of an answer to a question he asked me, Sir Archibald Murray has been appointed to that responsible command with the complete confidence of the Army Council, and the information I get from those who know Sir Archibald Murray best and know the work he has done is that he will act as General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in the important command at Aldershot with remarkable ability.

Was he incapable, in the opinion of the Army Council, of commanding on the Egyptian Front?

Did he succeed, immediately after coming home from France, to the position of Chief of the General Staff?

I do not know that he succeeded immediately, but the fact that he did succeed substantiates the statement I have made. He was brought back from France. In France he was the Chief of the General Staff. My hon. Friend asked me whether Sir Archibald Murray came home from the front in France. I say, yes; he came home from being Chief of the General Staff to Field-Marshal Lord French. After he came home, I am not sure whether it was immediately afterwards or whether some time elapsed, but in any case he was appointed by the Army Council and by Lord Kitchener to an appointment which I think, and which I believe the House will agree with me I am right in thinking, was a more important appointment than the one he held in France, namely, that of Chief of the Imperial General Staff at the War Office. The other case raised by my hon. and gallant Friend (Major D. Davies) was that of Sir William Babtie. I pointed out, I trust with satisfaction to the House, that the action of the Army Council in connection with Sir William Babtie was an action that was well founded.

If my hon. Friend has taken the precaution to read the Mesopotamia Report—I know he is very industrious—

Then he will remember that in that Report there was what we call in law a saving clause so far as Sir William Babtie was concerned.

It was made perfectly plain by the Commission that if it was possible to utilise the services of Sir William Babtie in any high appointment, they could have no possible objection to his services being used. What were the facts? The Army Council has a right by military law to ask of any officer an explanation of his conduct before he is dismissed or if they intend to dismiss him. In this case we exercised that right under a Section of the King's Regulations and we had before us the explanation of Sir William Babtie. We had in our minds at the same time the recommendation of the Mesopotamia Commission. We carefully perused Sir Walter Babtie's explanation of his conduct, and I think I am not overstepping the rights of members of the Army Council when I say they were unanimously of opinion that it would be a great detriment to the public military service of this country if it were deprived of the continued services of Sir William Babtie. Consequently we asked, as we had a right to do, Sir William Babtie to come back to carry on the work which he was doing at the War Office as Director of Medical Services, and was doing exceedingly well. I do not know what objection my hon. Friend has. I am perfectly certain that any soldier with any knowledge of the work of the Army Medical Service in any of the campaigns with which Sir William Babtie's name has been associated would be of the opinion that the Army Council took right and proper action to continue to use the excellent services of a most distinguished servant of the State.

As I said at Question time, Sir William Babtie is content to leave the matter as it stands. The Army Council is not bound, and indeed has never done so, to publish any explanations which are submitted to it by officers. In fact, if my two hon Friends who interrupted really wished to press that it would end very uncomfortably for some of their friends.

No, but if you had a rule that explanations sent to the Army Council by officers should be published there might be cases where the officer himself would be extremely astonished and annoyed if the explanation which he forwarded and which might not have been accepted by the Army Council was published.

I said there were several officers who had not yet sub- mitted their explanations to the Army Council, and until they had I am not in a position to state who was responsible, in the main or otherwise, for the extreme misfortunes which our troops, had to undergo in Mesopotamia on account of lack of medical equipment.

If my hon. and gallant Friend will persist in interrupting, I will tell him exactly the explanation of that fact. Sir William Babtie was directly under the Imperial Army. Some of the officers were not, and the question arose as to whether the Indian Government should take action in the case of two very distinguished Indian officers, Sir John Nixon and Sir Beauchamp Duff, or whether the Army Council should take action. That case was submitted to the Law Officers, who took some time to consider the point, which was rather difficult and rather technical, and that is the explanation of the delay. I am assured these two gallant officers are only too willing and anxious to have an opportunity at once of sending explanations to the Army Council to be considered in the same way as that of Sir William Babtie.

The other point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend affected the Committee of Inquiry on the Medical Service. He seems still to be under a misapprehension. As a matter of fact, it was I myself who announced that such a committee was to be appointed and my recollection is that I said that Committee was to deal with the medical problem as it existed in France. I have no recollection of ever saying that this Committee was to deal with the medical problem as it existed in this country, but, of course, if I am wrong, I shall apologise.

My hon. and learned Friend bears me out. Therefore the criticism of my hon. and gallant Friend on this point in the main falls to the ground. My hon. and gallant Friend asked if this Report was to be presented to the House. As a matter of fact, the Report has not been received, and until it has been received and considered by the Army Council I cannot say whether or not it will be presented to the House. My recollection is that it is purely a Departmental Report, and, if my knowledge of the affairs of the House is right, there is no instance where a Departmental Report has been placed either in the Library or upon the Table of the House.

I am speaking of my personal knowledge, but whether it is a Departmental Report or not, until such time as it is received and has been considered by the Army Council, I cannot give any definite pledge as to whether it will be presented or not. My hon. and gallant Friend has protested against the membership of the Committee. I am sorry that he has done so.

All I know is that the chairman has had a distinguished career, and members who have listened to the speech of my hon. and gallant Friend must know that his career has been most distinguished. It is true that he is somewhat old. In all cases youth is no crime, and in certain cases old age is no crime. I am certain that the distinguished officer who has had that experience which my hon. and gallant Friend has pointed out, and who is perfectly fit and healthy, is as capable, with all his knowledge and experience, of presiding over a Committee of Inquiry of this sort as even my hon. and gallant Friend.

I do not know. I have only got my hon. and gallant Friend's word for it, but I am told that he is seventy. That is not too old. Those of us who know the composition of the Committee will realise that it is not a Committee appointed to whitewash anybody. There are members of it who would not be corrupted even by titles. I know two of its members personally, and they know as much about the Army Medical Service and are as distinguished in medicine and surgery as any two gentlemen in the whole of the United Kingdom. I know the great regard that they have for the honourable traditions of that profession, and I am perfectly certain, rather than whitewash anybody, they would willingly resign the important positions which they have been asked to occupy by a grateful Government. My hon. and gallant Friend raised one other point, which he has put to me in the form of questions several times in the House. He wishes to know why the Director-General of Army Medical Services has no position upon the Army Council. I have pointed out to him at least twice in the course of question and answer that this point was very carefully considered by a most representative Committee before the War, and it was decided by them that it was not in the interests of the public service that the Director-General of the Army Medical Service should be placed on the Army Council. I have had occasion several times to look into that very finding and the reasons adduced for it, and I must say that they convinced me, particularly as I know that if in any given case on any important problem connected with the Army Medical Service the experience of the Director-General of the Army Medical Service is necessary for the Army Council, nobody objects to his being there. Indeed, he is welcome, and every opportunity is given to him of stating his case, of stating the whole facts connected with the problem and of making himself as useful as possible in helping the Army Council to their decision. My hon. and gallant Friend has been in the War Office for some time, and he knows that n the Secretary of State wishes to see anybody he can and will see him. I have been in association with my Noble Friend the Secretary of State, and I know that when any small question arises which affects even a small Department, he is only too anxious and too willing to see that the head of that Department is present at the Army Council, when the point which affects his Department is being discussed. I cannot say how far my hon. Friend would wish to go. Would he like the representative of the veterinary service to be on the Army Council, and the representative of the Supplies Department and representatives of the hundred and one various Departments which are connected with the Army now?

I can make this statement that whether the Director-General of the Army Medical Service is on the Army Council or not, one thing that is remarkable in this War is the extraordinarily high percentage of the health of the recruits at all periods of the War. If my hon. and gallant Friend is forced to put that forward as a reason why the Director-General of the Army Medical Service should be on the Army Council, he must be hard put to find something to bolster up his case. My hon. and gallant Friend finished off in generalities as he began. I do not object to his generalities. He never expected me to reply to them, but he did say that the whole attitude of the Army Council and the War Office in this matter made it difficult for the people in this country to have any confidence in the Secretary of State for War. I do not think that the House will agree that he has sustained his case, or that he has brought forward any substantial reason which showed that this House or the country at large or the Army should cease to have confidence in the Secretary of State. I can only speak from my personal observation of working with him, and I have never come across anyone more assiduous in the attention given to even the smallest claim of the private soldier equally with the claims of men like Sir Archibald Murray. I am very sorry that my hon. and gallant Friend should end up his speech, consisting of two parts, generalities and particulars, by a note of attack upon a distinguished public servant. I do not think that it is quite in keeping with the traditions which are always associated with my hon. and gallant Friend, and I am quite sure that in the morning, when he has time to consider the accusations hurled against the War Office as a whole, and particularly against the War Cabinet, he will be forced to recognise that not only is the Army efficient, and not only is the discipline which is applied to the private soldier applied to the men in high command, but that the War Office itself is worked on proper lines.

I wish to raise the question of the conscription of wealth. I think this is really the time when the Government should give some guidance to the country on that subject, because it is idle to deny that there is a great deal of discussion upon it in various quarters. I listened with a great deal of interest to the exchange of views between the representative of the Ministry of Munitions and the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson), and the feeling which underlay many of the hon. Gentleman's remarks was the feeling of general discontent that exists, and which, if not observed, is none the less real. For the first time, in a discussion on the Consolidated Fund Bill, the suggestion has been made by the official Leader of the Labour party that the time has come when the Government should give consideration to the conscription of wealth. The hon. Member for West Fife submitted his ideas to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in language extremely temperate, and I think that in itself is an additional reason why the Government, before the Debate closes, should make some response to the remarks of the Leader of the Labour party. To ignore an invitation of that kind, and to ignore the kind of discussion which is going on in the country by no means disposes of the difficulty; on the contrary, I think it is very likely to end in aggravating it, and, in my view, quite unnecessarily. After all, what underlies the demand? I think two things. In the first place there is a feeling, and I do not hesitate to say that I have got a great deal of sympathy with it, that there is still in force, not intentionally but accidentally, what may be roughly described as legal favouritism of some interests, and I think the Labour party regard that feeling as very natural. In the course of the Debate the hon. Baronet the Member for Barnsley alleged that in Scotland there was the case of a landowner who, not long before the War, had regarded his timber as worth £25,000, and he is now selling it to the Government for £70,000. I do not know whether the statement is true or not; for the moment I assume that it is true, on the strength of what the hon. Baronet said; I see no particular reason to disbelieve it; but I do wish to point out to the House that, in my view, an answer to the question of why an excess profit is not chargeable on a profit of that kind, is required. I am utterly unconvinced by toe distinction drawn between income and capital. It does not appeal very strongly to me, and I do not wonder that the Labour party, and many other parties, or ordinary commercial committees, regard that distinction as one that cannot be adopted for other than present purposes. The same would apply to large amounts of money paid to the owners of petroleum properties, as to the profits of large shipowners made through a mistake of the Exchequer. And some remarks have been made about the profits, which, within the knowledge of people in Scotland, have been made out of whisky, and in regard to which the distinction is applied that they come out of capital. I think a distinction of that kind is legal favouritism. My belief is that a good deal of discontent is caused amongst the Labour party and working men generally by realising cases of that kind and strongly objecting to them being allowed to continue. I cannot too strongly counsel the Government to take their courage in both hands and bring distinctions of that kind to as speedy an end as possible. But a great deal more is involved than that. The question of whether taxation should be measured out to taxpayers with reference to income or capital no doubt raises a distinction between capital and income. I have always taken the view that the conventional distinction between these two is apt to lead one astray if pressed very far.

There is nothing about taxation in this Bill. The hon. Member is dealing with matters which are more properly relevant to a Finance Bill.

With great deference, I meant to continue references to taxation and to the question raised by the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson) as to the taxation of capital, and I understood there was a possibility of the Chancellor of the Exchequer saying something in reply.

I did not hear the speech to which the hon. Member referred. We are not dealing here with taxation or the raising of money; we are dealing with the spending of it, which is quite a different subject.

I do not for a moment wish to run counter to your ruling. My intention was merely to refer to certain questions mentioned by the hon. Member for West Fife and to explain the feeling of discontent which lay behind the demands which he put forward. Would I not be in order in dealing with that point?

I did not hear the speech of the hon. Member for West Fife, but this Bill has nothing whatever to do with taxation. This Bill provides for an amount of money by means of a Vote of Credit to enable the War to be carried on. When we come to the question of the provision of the money, then will come in the question of taxation.

I cannot congratulate the Government on the display they have shown in the House this evening. They seem to me to have evaded the chief questions they should have tackled. Their tactics may succeed for a time, but let me advise the Government, as a candid friend, not to make more or stronger enemies, than they have got. There is more than one candid critic, and not only on this side. I wish the Leader of the House had been here to listen to the speech of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Major Davies), in which he told them candidly that he had been utterly deceived in this Government, that he believed the promises with which they came into power, and that he found they were all futile and false. I am inclined to think that day after day the Government will find, in spite of the immense control which they exercise over speaking and business in this House, and the stern control and censorship which they exercise over the Press outside—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] Oh, yes, they exercise the very greatest control over the Press. To-day I have a letter from North Salford which showed the action in respect to certain printed leaflets which contained nothing but a part of the speech of the Prime Minister and part of an article from one of the papers supporting the Government, which were suppressed because one ended up by a statement of the casualties, so that the electors might judge better which of the candidates to support. The leaflet impressed solely the terrible burden of the casualties entailed by the War. Feeling in the country, if it were allowed to have play, and to take its own course, would do it. It is interfered with by the Government, which prevents criticism, inside and outside, from taking its due and proper place in the Constitution. The rot that is continuing will go on. [Laughter.] Yes; I know there are a great many kinds of rot. There is that which passes away with the air we breathe, and there is that which eats into the fabric of the State. That is the rot of which I am afraid. I wish the House had been filled when we had that most eloquent and comprehensive speech from the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Clare (Mr. Lynch). I hope hon. Members will read his Motion on the Order Paper, especially when they did not hear his eloquent oration.

I shall just call attention to one or two points and elaborate them, and I am very glad to see the Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his place. In the forefront of his indictment the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Clare places repeated failure in the field of foreign affairs. There can be no doubt whatever that while the nation is anxiously and eagerly following the achievements of our Armies there are some just as anxiously following the diplomatic game. It is in the sphere of diplomacy that we have been so lacking, and this is recognised, I am glad to say, even by the strongest supporters of the Government at the present time. I have here one of the evening papers, one which is usually strong in its support of the Government. It has a very opportune article to-day upon diplomacy and the activities of the Foreign Office since the War began. It says this is—

May I very respectfully call your attention to the ruling of Mr. Deputy-Speaker on Thursday, that a latitude was now being allowed on Votes of Credit, even to matters which were more upon the Estimates, and that a matter, even if it were a charge borne upon the Estimates, might yet be discussed on the Vote of Credit, as the opportunities for discussion were so few? I trust under this ruling you may allow me to say a few words on this subject.

I am afraid I cannot accept my Deputy's ruling if it were in that form. The hon. Gentleman is bound to confine his remarks to what is contained in the four corners of the Bill. This is the Third Reading. On the Second Reading there is more latitude. On the Third Reading there is less latitude.

Then I must seek another occasion of calling attention to what I believe not only to be a grave scandal, but a public danger by the—

Notwithstanding my warning, the hon. Member persists in doing what I have told him he is not entitled to do. I warn him not to disregard the Chair.

I will say a few words upon a matter which has been discussed by at least two speakers, and which was so adroitly avoided in his reply by the Under-Secretary of State for War—I mean the position and ability of the higher command. Let me remind the House that a little over a year ago about 24th October, 1916, Sir William Robertson made a speech in which he used the words:

"The military position and outlook are most satisfactory."

Within a month of that time Bucharest was taken, and practically the whole of the oil and corn fields of Roumania fell into the hands of the enemy. That was the military outlook which Sir William Robertson considered more than satisfactory. We are possibly going to be faced in the next few weeks with an equal disaster of a similar kind. I pray that it may not be so, but the unfortunate thing about it is that Sir William Robertson, whose prophecy was so outrageous a year ago, is still chief of the Imperial General Staff. If he is there with a consensus of feeling of this country—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]—I do not want to say that he ought to be turned out, but when a man is making mistakes, and when we see the military position of this country not what it ought to be, not what the valour of our soldiers or the sacrifices we make, or the money, munitions, and men we have poured into the scale entitle us to expect, then we have to blame the controlling brains and the men at the top. I say that the position in Italy is one that we ought to have made more clear with a view to giving more confidence to ourselves and our Allies. All through the early hours of the Debate this evening there were practically no reference to the outstanding point of the position in Italy. I felt as I listened to the speeches that there was a certain academic character about them and a certain remoteness from practical affairs, because they did not bring the question into touch with the outstanding issue of the hour. What is it we have to face in the position of Italy? I do not believe for a moment that the bravery and endurance of the soldiers is at fault. I feel confident as far as I can make out, judging from the best authorities and minds which have been devoted to this subject that the reason why a great German advance has been successful against Italy is that the methods and minds occupied with this War are at fault. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I have been for months trying to get at this, and I meant to hear some statement as to who really is the man in command of the Allied Army. We know we have Sir Wiliam Robertson here and Sir Douglas Haig in France — [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"]—but who really constitutes the Allied War Council? Who is the Generalissimo, the real mind directing affairs on the Western Front?—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"] These are matters in regard to which we ought to inquire. The Under-Secretary for War is doing me the courtesy of listening to my remarks. I have talked to him about this subject and addressed questions to it and I am going to conclude by making a fresh appeal on the subject. Will the Army Council see whether some statement cannot be made which will make clear to the public what is the position of our General Staff and our higher command in France to the Allied War Council? Unless we have a united and harmonious command of all the forces in the alliance I do not believe that we shall have a successful or adequate prosecution of the War. That is a very serious question, and one which has not yet been properly answered, although it has been alluded to by several speakers.

I am sure the House will desire to come to a decision now, and I hope the hon. Member will bow to what is obviously the wish of the House.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.

Premium Bonds

Order read for appointment of Select Committee to inquire into and report on the desirability or otherwise of raising money for the purpose of the War by the issue of Premium Bonds.

I would appeal to the hon. Member to withdraw his opposition, otherwise it will mean delay.

I, too, would ask my hon. Friend not to persist in his opposition. Unless this is passed now, it will mean a certain amount of delay.

Yes, Sir.

It being after Eleven of the clock, further proceeding was postponed.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Personal Explanation

Whereupon, Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House, of 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now Adjourn."

I have to call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to a rather peculiar mistake made by myself and my right hon. Friend the Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson) this afternoon. After myself moving the Closure, I find that I have voted both in favour of and against it. The explanation is that an important document reached me this afternoon in regard to which I desired to consult my right hon. Friend the Member for Trinity College. I met him in the Lobby, and I asked him to go with me to my room. The Lobby was practically empty. There was only one Member in it, and we walked through it without noticing either the clerks or the tellers. I hope, therefore, that my vote and that of my right hon. Friend will not be included in the list of the "Noes." I might say that this is rather a curious mistake to be made by the Leader of the House, who ought to know its rules. I can only apologise to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the House.

I also recorded a vote on Thursday night in the Division Lobby against the mining royalties, and it has only just been rectified. I spoke about it a day or two ago. May I take this opportunity of making an explanation?

Opportunity should be taken immediately in the course of the sitting, and then the correction could be made before the Votes appeared in the morning.

It was only when I saw the list afterwards that I noticed Sir William Priestley's name was mistaken for my own.

If the hon. Member had called attention to it on the day and before the Division Lists appeared, the alteration would have been made.

It was not until the day after the meeting of the House that I discovered that my name did not appear, and therefore I could not correct it at the time. It was only a day or two afterwards I found out that another name had been inserted instead of my own, and I took the earliest opportunity, when the House met on Monday, to draw attention to the error. But I had no opportunity of making a public explanation at the time.

At all events, the correction has been made.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Six Minutes after Eleven of the clock.