House of Commons
Wednesday, November 7, 1917
Shops Act, 1912
Copy presented of Order made by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—
City of Liverpool
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Superannuation Act, 1887
Copy presented of Treasury Minute, dated 1st November, 1917, granting a Retired Allowance to Mr. Frank King Hyde, Officer of Wigan 1st Station, Bolton, Customs and Excise [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Munitions (Health of Munition Workers)
Copy presented of Memorandum No. 20 (Weekly Hours of Employment), by the Health of Munition Workers' Committee (Supplementary to Memorandum No 5 (Hours of Work) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Local Taxation (Scotland) Account
Copy presented of Return showing payments into and out of the Local Taxation (Scotland) Account for the financial year 1916–17 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
West Indies
Copy presented of Reports on Pellagra in the West Indies, by Dr. Louis W. Sambon, M.D. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Ministry of Food
Copies presented of Milk Factories (Restriction) Order, 1917, Butter (Maximum prices) Order (No. 4), 1917, Sugar (Registration of Retailers) (Ireland) Order, 1917, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Campaign in German South-West Africa
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can state the cause of the delay in publishing dispatches in connection with the campaign in German South-West Africa; and whether publication will now be expedited?
I am informed that the energies of the officers of the Union General Staff, on whom would devolve the duty of preparing an account of the campaign in German South-West Africa, have been fully engaged on matters of more immediate importance, but it is intended to prepare and publish such an account as soon as circumstances permit.
Seeing that this Report is more than two years overdue, and the hon. Gentleman is a Member of the Do-it-now Government, will something be done at once?
Ceylon Riots
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will lay upon the Table of the House the Report of a Commission appointed by the Governor of Ceylon to inquire into the circumstances connected with the shooting of ten persons during the riots in Ceylon in 1915 and dated 18th January, 1917?
I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave to a similar question by the hon. Member for Burnley yesterday.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor in office on 14th August, said, "An inquiry was held into these cases and a report of it will be published here." May I ask, as quotations of portions of it have appeared in the Press, whether he will not give hon. Members and the public an opportunity of reading the whole Report?
That point was fully dealt with by my right hon. Friend yesterday.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that yesterday the Secretary of State for the Colonies denied the accuracy of the quotation which I made, and has he now satisfied himself that a promise was made and does he intend to carry it out?
I did not hear that he did anything of the kind.
Will the hon. Gentleman look into the record of his predecessors in office as well as of his chief?
Questions
Army Messes (Whisky)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what proportion of the 1,000,000 gallons of whisky now being called for by the Control Board for Navy and Army purposes is for hospital and medicinal purposes and how much for mess requirements; and whether it is proposed to commandeer spirits for both purposes?
Whisky for hospital supplies and medicinal purposes is not obtained by the Navy and Army Canteen Committee. The supply to which my hon. Friend refers is for officers' and sergeants' messes. The trade have cordially co-operated in the request made for this whisky, and the question of commandeering does not, therefore, arise.
Was the amount a million gallons?
What was the price of the whisky?
I cannot say, but my hon. and gallant Friend is sure to know.
Territorial General Hospitals (Officers' Pay)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War why captains serving as à-la-suite officers of the Territorial general hospitals are allotted precisely the same kind of work, the same hours of work, and bear the same responsibility for the treatment of their patients as lieutenant-colonels and majors attached to the same hospitals, whilst they receive no temporary step in rank or additon to their pay?
The question of promotions to complete establishments of general hospitals is under consideration, but in all hospitals medical officers are frequently employed according to their professional aptitude and line of work, and, while senior officers are naturally given the more responsible duties, there is no reason why à-la-suite officers of captain's rank, who are often of the highest professional standing, should not be, employed in the same way.
Re-Employment of Officers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the officers who were relieved of their positions in connection with the case of James Brightmore have yet been reinstated; and, if not, whether they will receive such reinstatement as will not involve financial or other disability?
The question of the re-employment of these officers is under consideration. They will not suffer any financial or other disability except such as was consequential upon their being unemployed for a certain period.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that every day's delay is an aggravation of the harsh and unfair treatment meted out to General Elliot in this case?
I do not think I can usefully add anything at present to the answer I have given.
I beg to give notice that unless justice is done to General Elliot shortly, I shall raise this question on the Adjournment or otherwise.
Is it usual to deprive an officer in these circumstances of his pay, and are there not precedents during this War for officers' in the same position continuing to receive their pay?
I have said the whole matter is now under consideration, and I cannot go beyond that.
Inoculation
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether, in view of misconceptions as to anti-typhoid inoculation and prejudice against that form of treatment, he will direct his attention to a recent Report on the subject communicated to the French Academy of Science by Dr. Richet, which showed the boon to the soldier as well as to the State conferred by this system of inoculation; whether he will have this document translated and circulated in quarters where it is likely to do good; and whether similar statistics referring to British forces will be published and laid upon the Table of the House?
I am not familiar with the document to which my hon. Friend refers, but the prejudice against anti-typhoid inoculation in the Army is negligible and the course which he suggests is not considered necessary.
May I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider that there is a great prejudice even in this House and that on account of having put down this question I have received letters? It might be worth while to remove that prejudice.
My information is that there is no prejudice in the Army against it and certainly none in this House, except in a certain small quarter.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the rules and regulations in regard to vaccination and inoculation, are the same for the Indian Army as for the British Expeditionary Forces; and whether the operation is performed on Indian soldiers before or after leaving India for the different fronts?
I am not quite certain what the practice is, but I believe that Indian soldiers are vaccinated but not inoculated against enteric before leaving India for service overseas. If the hon. Member desires, I will ask the Government of India to confirm this information.
Is it compulsory in the Indian Army and not compulsory in the British Army?
A recruit for the Indian Army is informed that he is liable to vaccination and is not accepted unless he accepts that liability.
asked the Prime Minister if there were 50,000 cases of death from typhoid in the South African War; if not, will he say how many cases and how many deaths, respectively, occurred in that war from this disease; and whether inoculation was extensively practised in the army in South Africa?
The number of cases of typhoid fever amongst the troops in the South African War was: officers, 2,066; other ranks, 57,684; and of deaths: officers, 205; other ranks, 8,022. Inoculation was not so extensively practised in the army in South Africa as in the present campaigns.
Will any measures be taken to correct the inaccurate statements made in the speech of the Prime Minister the other day?
I know of no inaccurate statement.
Is not the statement that there were 50,000 deaths untrue?
asked whether the 3,000 who fell victims to typhoid in the Army in France were merely cases or deaths; whether they included cases of paratyphoid, dysentery, and diarrhœa; if not, how many cases respectively of these diseases have occurred and how many cases returned as P.V.O.; and what proportions of cases and what proportions of deaths from each of the diseases named arose amongst inoculated and uninoculated respectively?
I am not aware what the figure of 3,000 is to which my hon. Friend is alluding. 184 officers and men have died of enteric in France and 48 of paratyphoid. 2,321 cases of typhoid (enteric) and 3,871 cases of paratyphoid have occurred. The totals for dysentery are not available, and it would take a long time to work them out. For diarrhœa it would be necessary to apply to France for figures. I have no figures regarding P.V.O. (pyrexia, i.e., fever, of uncertain origin). Of the deaths from enteric, namely, 184, 62 had been inoculated and 122 had not been inoculated. Of the deaths from paratyphoid, namely, 48, 39 had been inoculated and 9 had not been inoculated.
Western Front (Commander-In-Chief)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether General Pétain is now Commander-in-Chief of the Allied Forces on the Western Front; and, if so, why the War Office has not communicated it to this House and to the country?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second portion does not, therefore, arise.
Will the hon. Gentleman take into account that France has asked for one central control, and also that the demand is now being made from America, and it is absolutely vital to the success of the War?
I cannot add anything to the answer I have given.
Soldiers With One Eye
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether there are any soldiers who have lost an eye who are at present serving in any of the theatres of war; whether it is the experience that such men are handicapped in the fight by this deficiency that has led to the present rule of his Department that such men will no longer be passed for combatant service; and will he take means to have the soldiers of this type at the front brought back home for home service only?
I am not aware of any A men serving under these conditions. There are, no doubt, men of lower categories serving in the theatres of war with this affliction. I am afraid that my hon. Friend's suggestion in the last part of his question is not practicable.
Are these men in the lower categories sent into the trenches?
I am informed not.
If we bring to my hon. Friend's notice cases of men who are in the front trenches, will he take steps to have them taken out?
I must know all the facts and circumstances first of all. If my hon. Friends will produce any cases, I will certainly have them carefully inquired into.
Food Supplies
Grain from America
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received a Report from the British Ambassador at Washington as to the steps taken by the American Government to conserve foodstuffs had to assist the Allies by providing grain and other food materials for their use?
His Majesty's Government are in constant communication with the United States Government on this subject, and are fully satisfied with the progress which is being made; but I regret that there is no detailed information which can be usefully made public at the present moment.
In view of the food economy campaign which is taking place in this country, might not the hon. Gentleman be able to issue a statement of the facts, which might be made public, to encourage community of sacrifice among all the Allies?
I must ask the hon. Member to give me notice of that question.
Bone Manure
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether France, which previously exported rough bones to this country, has now prohibited their export, thereby reducing the quantity of bone meal and steamed bone flour available for agricultural purposes; whether we still permit the export of dried blood manure; and, if, so, whether, in the interests of increased food production, he will take steps to retain this ammoniacal fertiliser?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The export of dried blood manure to France is allowed in very limited quantities, in view of the urgent requests for fertilisers received from the French Government. It is understood that manure makers in Great Britain are able to obtain sufficient to meet their requirements, and so long as this is the case, it is considered desirable to assist our Allies by exporting the small surplus.
Sugar
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the first two sugar vouchers issued to caterers and manufacturers are in respect of supplies for the months of November and December; if so, what arrangements have been made towards providing supplies to meet these cases, seeing that the new scheme of distribution does not come into operation until January next; whether provision has been made to meet the claims of householders during the intervening period in cases in which these householders change their source of supply from one retailer to another; and whether any retailer who has supplied a customer with sugar up to 5th November would be entitled to refuse a further supply to such person during November and December if he registered with a competitor for future supplies as from 1st January next.
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. No necessity will, it is expected, arise for any modification of the present basis of distribution to caterers and manufacturers. In the case of the latter, the voucher system merely provides machinery for enforcing the existing restrictions as to the usage of sugar for manufacture. As I informed the hon. Member for Rotherham yesterday, no retailer may refuse to supply his previous customers with sugar during November and December on the ground that they have registered with a competitor for future supplies as from 1st January next.
Butter
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he knows that in certain towns where the price of butter had been forced up to 3s. 6d. per lb. the food control committees stepped in and reduced the price 1s. per lb.; whether he is aware that in consequence the farmers are diverting their supplies to adjacent towns where inflated prices can still be obtained, as no control is exercised; and what steps he proposes to take to establish some measure of uniformity in the matter of food control?
The Food Controller is aware that, owing to the fact that the price of Danish butter has not been hitherto controlled, this butter has in some instances reached the price stated by the hon. Member. The price of home-produced butter is, however, controlled by the Butter (Maximum Prices) Order dated 31st August, 1917. The Food Controller has fixed the first hand price of Danish butter at 229s. per cwt. export, as from the 13th November. This will have the effect of bringing the prices of all kinds of butter to the approximately uniform figure of 2s. 3d.—2s. 5d. per lb. to the consumer.
Can the hon. Gentleman inform us whether this price involves any loss to the Exchequer?
I am not aware it will involve any such loss.
Meat (Maximum Prices)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, under the Meat (Maximum Prices) Order, 1917, the wholesale price for meat (dead weight) is controlled but the live weight price uncontrolled; whether he is aware that in some towns the Order is enforced against the butchers and in other towns not enforced, and that this leads to much unfairness as between butchers when purchasing supplies; and whether he proposes to have a uniform enforcement of the Order in every town?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Lord Rhondda is aware that the enforcement of this Meat (Maximum Prices) Order has been subject to considerable local variations in practice, but he proposes at an early date to give Food Control Committees new powers of enforcement of Orders made by him, and to issue full directions on the subject, which he hopes will result in a uniformity of practice throughout the country.
Fruits
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that apples and other fruits which are sometimes bought by dealers at about 1d. per lb. are afterwards retailed by them at 5d. and 6d. per lb., and that this is made possible because the local food control committees have no control over these prices; and whether he will vest power in the committees to fix a price permitting only a reasonable margin as compared with the price paid to the grower?
The process of control of foodstuffs is necessarily gradual, and in deciding what kinds of food should be dealt with first the Food Controller is guided by considerations of relative food value. Apples and other fruits have for the most part a low food value as compared with many other commodities, and their inclusion in the scheme of control has consequently been deferred.
Pork
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he will abolish the control price of fresh pork so that the rearer of pigs may have a fair share in the price of bacon as at present obtained?
The Food Controller does not propose to abolish the control price of fresh pork, but will, at an early date, fix maximum wholesale and retail prices for bacon on a parity with the controlled pork price.
May I ask if the hon. Gentleman will call the attention of the Food Controller to the enormous profit which is made by the wholesaler and retailer of something like 140 per cent., depriving the farmer of the opportunity of getting a fair price for what he has to dispose of, that is green pork, on which you are only allowing 133s. per cwt., while at 170s. there would be a fair profit to be made?
I shall be glad to call the attention of the Food Controller to the matter, but I hope what I have said in answer will prevent such cases in the future.
Bread
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in order to maintain the bread supply of this country and render it more wholesome, he will consider the advisability of issuing an order that all bread must contain at least 40 per cent. of potato flour?
There is no machinery available in this country for the manufacture of any considerable quantity of potato flour. It is, however, intended to utilise potatoes for the manufacture of bread in the form of potato mash, and a scheme is being prepared which will, it is hoped, encourage bakers to use as fully as possible this wholesome and palatable diluent. The percentage of dilution suggested by the hon. Member is, however, I think, excessive, and. the Order now in force limits the proportion of potatoes. to 12½ per cent.
Potatoes
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he will state what steps, if any, are being taken by the Food Controller to conserve the stock of potatoes in this country against waste and possible shortage next spring?
Clause 10 of the Potatoes Order, 1917, prohibits the sale, except under licence, of certain varieties of potato which, when grown in suitable soils, have good keeping qualities. This Clause was designed to meet the point raised by the hon. Member, and there is no reason at present to anticipate that there will be any shortage of potatoes next spring.
Military Service
Dumfries and Galloway Appeal Tribunal
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will ascertain how many employés of military age and military fitness are in the service of the members of the Appeal Tribunal of Dumfries and Galloway; and whether he will see that his military representative there will take similar action with such employés as he has taken with those in the service of the Post Office and of other employers?
My hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I have at present no information on the subject referred to in the question, but inquiries are being made, and the result will be communicated to the hon. Member in due course.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this tribunal has become notorious for pushing men into the trenches, and retaining in its own employment gardeners, etc.?
No; I am not aware of that.
Transfers to Line Regiments
asked the Under-Secretary for War what guarantee will be given to men joining the Army for special work in answer to advertisements that the work which they enlist to perform will be allotted to them; if he is aware that at the outbreak of the War recruiting posters were issued offering employment to engineers, tailors, and barbers, etc., at special wages in the Army Service Corps; and if he is aware that the Government have failed to carry out the terms of the public advertisements and transferred the men to Line regiments?
I am afraid that the situation to-day is totally different from what it was under the voluntary system at the outbreak of war. At the present time, in order to carry on the War, it is necessary to use each man where his services are most required.
Am I to understand that the War Office has lost all respect for their agreements which they entered into with these men?
I cannot agree with that at all. Everybody knows that under the Military Transfer Act, 1915, it is possible to transfer men from one branch of the Service to another.
Is it fair to take men earning from 30s. to £2 a week into the Army at special rates and then reduce them to the ordinary soldiers' rates of pay?
Boys' Training Battalions, Colchester
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he will have close inquiries made into the conditions prevailing in the boys' training battalions at Colchester and elsewhere, in view of the complaints regarding insufficiency of food and withholding of leave; and whether he will do everything possible to have the promises made regarding the treatment of these boys by specially selected officers carried out?
I will have inquiry made, but there should be no grounds for complaint regarding insufficiency of food, as the Service ration, together with the commuted cash allowance, are ample to ensure thoroughly good feeding if the service and distribution are carried out in accordance with the instructions given on the matter. As to leave, it is given under existing arrangements after the first three months' training and further leave after eight months is contemplated.
Fox Hunts (Exemptions)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been drawn to a case heard at the Rochdale Military Tribunal of a single man of military age who had procured exemption on the condition of acting as huntsman to a Yorkshire fox hunt; whether he is aware that it has been stated in Parliament that no persons of military age were employed as servants to fox hunts; and whether he will institute a comb-out of all hunting and racing establishments and remove the various persons who are evading military service in these establishments?
My hon. Friend has asked me to reply. My attention has not been drawn to the case mentioned, but I shall be glad to consider any representation made to me. With regard to the second part of the question, I have no knowledge, but if the hon. Member will give me the reference I will inform myself of the circumstances. With regard to the third part of the question, no men will be left in such establishments unless he is physically unfit or holds a valid exemption from a tribunal.
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Home Secretary if Captain Stevenson, inspector of the Home Office camps for conscientious objectors, is the son-in-law of a member of the Home Office Committee; whether he was appointed to his present post after his relative became a member of the Home Office Committee; what his remuneration is; whether he is a person of military age; and whether he will find some better employment for him than harassing and persecuting conscientious objectors?
Captain Stevenson is not the son-in-law of any member of the Home Office Committee. He is of military age, but was selected for the post of inspector because of the ability and tact which he had shown while acting as Governor of Wormwood Scrubs Prison at a time when a large number of conscientious objectors were confined there. He receives his ordinary remuneration as prison governor (£372) with an extra allowance of £50. The suggestion contained in the last part of the question is absolutely without foundation.
Are we to understand that this gentleman is therefore himself a conscientious objector to military service?
Questions
Ship Canal (Clyde to Forth)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has received a copy of the resolution adopted by the executive committee of the Navy League at its meeting on the 20th July last, relating to the proposed construction of a ship canal from the Clyde to the Forth; and whether any decision has been arrived at as to the merits of the proposed alternate schemes known as the direct route and the Loch Lomond route?
Yes, Sir; the Resolution was received. The whole question is being considered by the Government, including that of the route. No decision has been arrived at.
Is there any likelihood of any further concession on the matter—it is very important for Scotland?
I cannot say that. The commercial aspect is not a matter for the Admiralty. Ours is the strategic side of the matter. But I will make representations.
Is the Department in any way committed to one of the schemes, or are both still under their consideration?
Both are still under consideration.
Shipbuilding Yard (Ireland)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that four new national shipbuilding yards are to be built forthwith for the Admiralty, he will consider the advisability of opening a new shipbuilding yard or yards for Admiralty work in Ireland; whether, in view of the fact that Ireland possesses large and extensive harbour accommodation, he will proceed with the work of making the harbours and ports in Ireland suitable for utilisation as up-to-date naval and mercantile ports and dockyards, possessing ship-repairing yards and bases for naval stores and accessories; whether he is aware that dissatisfaction exists in Ireland owing to the manner in which that country, sharing equally with Great Britain Imperial taxation, is starved in the matter of Admiralty work and expenditure; and whether he will take steps to remedy this state of affairs by consulting Irish port and harbour authorities, so as to put into operation a scheme by which Ireland will receive a fair share of Admiralty work and contracts?
With regard to the first and second parts of the question, it is not possible to add anything to the information which I gave yesterday to my right hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry. As to the remainder of the question, I can only say that not only is there a good deal of shipbuilding and ship repairing done for us in Ireland, but we make large purchases of canvas and linen goods, warm clothing, fresh meat, bread and vegetables, flour, pork, timber, and cordage. We send samples annually of our requirements to Ireland, and I can only add that, as regards shipbuilding and ship repairing, every effort will be made to allocate to the various yards as much work as can be advantageously undertaken by them.
Royal Army Medical Corps
asked the Undersecretary of State for War why captains of the Royal Army Medical Corps, Territorial Force, who have sacrificed their practices, gone to France, and been invalided, and consequently posted on home service, receive pay at the rate of only 15s. 6d. a day, whereas medical men who have conducted their practices at home during the War, and who have recently been employed as temporary lieutenants of the Royal Army Medical Corps on home service receive pay at the rate of 24s. a day, and medical men who serve on recruiting boards receive pay at the rate of £2 a day?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply on the 19th October last to the hon. Member for Brentford.
Soldiers' Pay
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War when it is proposed to increase the pay of the British troops?
I regret I can add nothing to my reply on Thursday last to the hon. Member for Newington West.
asked if any equivalent addition will be made to the pay of soldiers living with their wives and families to correspond with the concession announced by the Prime Minister to relieve soldiers who do not live with their wives and families of their compulsory allotment?
Yes, Sir, family allowance will be increased.
asked if soldiers who enlisted during their apprenticeship or whilst they were under training for skilled occupations and whose parents are, there fore, penalised for their previous self-denial of their son's full earning capacity by their present inability to prove pre-war dependence and claim separation allowance will be relieved of the payment of allotments voluntarily allowed out of their pay to their parents, as will be the case in regard to soldiers' compulsory allotments under paragraph 1 of the summary of decisions appended to the Prime Minister's published letter on the subject, dated 29th September?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 22nd February last by my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions.
Is my hon. Friend aware that there have been many questions since last February on this point? Half a dozen times we have heard that the matter was being considered, and that an early decision would be come to. When is the decision really going to be come to?
That is a question which should be addressed to the Ministry of Pensions.
asked whether a soldier on active service, if he has reason to doubt the accuracy of information given to him through the usual official channels as to the exact balance of his account, has the right to claim a statement giving details of his account in writing, fully dated as to the various items and showing how the balance is computed?
He can make such a claim and, if reasonable in the circumstances, it would be granted.
Soldiers' Leave
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he is aware that there are cases of Irish soldiers who joined the Army at the outbreak of the War and have not yet received leave; if he is aware, that soldiers in the Dublin Fusiliers who were sent to the landing at Suvla Bay, the Dardanelles, and then to Salonika have recently been transferred to Egypt without one day's leave; and if he will see that leave will be granted for Christmas?
I would refer the hon. Member to what I said on this subject in Debate on 31st October.
Is it not unfair to these men in Egypt? Cannot the hon. Gentleman say that something will be done?
I have dealt fully with the question of leave for the troops in France and particularly in regard to the question of leave for troops in Mesopotamia and other theatres of war.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether it will be arranged that soldiers on leave from the front whose families are in Ireland will be allowed two extra days in view of the fact that two extra days are occupied in going to and returning from Ireland?
As I informed the House on the 1st instant, in answer to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil, the authorities in France have now arranged that fourteen days' leave shall be given, to include the journey to and from France, and I am afraid that this is the utmost concession that can be made in present circumstances. My hon. Friend will realise that if any further extension were contemplated it could not be limited to the cases of soldiers whose families live in Ireland.
Would it not be right that extra leave be granted to soldiers from Scotland and Ireland, seeing that extra journeys are involved in reaching those places over and above the journey to England?
It is not a question of right; it is a question of privilege. The House will recollect that the amount of leave given is four days; afterwards that was extended, so that those who had to travel to distant parts of Scotland and Ireland might have sufficient time to get home and have a few days' rest. Having gone to fourteen days, we have gone to the extreme limit.
Since when has leave become a question of privilege?
It always has been a question of privilege.
Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that by this extension he is only putting the various nationalities exactly on an equality?
No; it means raising a great many difficulties among the troops who are fighting.
asked the Undersecretary for War why the officer commanding the transport drivers, Royal Engineers, Stanhope Lines, Aldershot, is refusing final leave to low category men who have finished their training whilst the A men are allowed their leave; and will he see that men of all classes, are given equal treatment in the matter of final leave?
No men from the training depot, Royal Engineers, except category A men go overseas, and I know of none who have gone without having final leave. When possible, men of lower categories are given leave after training similar to the final leave of the category A men. Recent orders for a draft of low category men to proceed to home stations necessitate the despatch of some men who have only just finished training without the possibility of the usual leave being given.
asked the Under secretary for War if he is aware that dissatisfaction still exists about the way in which leave is given to men with the Expeditionary Force in France; and whether he will inquire into the system of the distribution of leave warrants and try to ascertain whether certain regiments receive an undue proportion at the expense of others?
I am afraid that I can add nothing to what I said in Debate on this subject on the 31st October.
Enemy Air Raids
London Defences
asked (1) whether a range-finder for aircraft is still in use in London's defences; if so, whether the type originally adopted has ever been altered; whether the guns fire according to the indications of the range-finder or at random; (2) whether the time-fuses for anti-aircraft guns are fixed to correspond to a certain height and the gunners are instructed not to alter them, though the height to which the aircraft ascend may vary and become much greater than that for which the first adjustment was calculated?
It is not in the public interest to disclose the details for which the hon. Member asks.
May I ask if the War Office will imprint upon their portals this aphorism from Carlyle?
Prisoners of War
asked the Undersecretary for War whether he is aware that a British officer, Lieutenant Gilliland, who has been put in charge of British prisoners of war at Philippopolis, habitually appropriates food and clothing consigned in bulk to the Irish prisoners and distributes them without regard to the regiments to which they are consigned; whether he is aware that this commandant also orders the flogging of British prisoners by their Bulgarian captors for the most trivial breaches of discipline, whilst prisoners of other nationalities are not subjected to such treatment; whether he is aware that Gilliland causes the floggings to be carried out in the public square and compels officers and men to attend on parade on such occasions, and that he ordered the floggings on St. Patrick's Day of five Irish soldiers, including a man aged fifty-three; who appointed Gilliland as commandant; whether statements will be invited from repatriated prisoners who have returned to this country from Bulgaria; and what action the War Office proposes to take?
A few prisoners of war repatriated from Bulgaria had made certain allegations against Lieutenant Gilliland, which are in substance as stated. This officer was put in charge of British prisoners by the Bulgarian authorities. The allegations made are entirely opposed to information regarding Lieutenant Gilliland's work derived from independent sources, and especially from the members of the United States Legation in Sofia, who have stated that he has done everything possible for our men, and that the control exercised by him has tended very much to their benefit, and especially to the maintenance of their morale. In the circumstances the Army Council are not prepared to accept the charges made against Lieutenant Gilliland as justified, and they have taken such steps as are possible to ascertain the truth of the charges.
Is there any doubt whatever about the statements in this question?
I do not know whether there is any doubt in my hon. Friend's mind. but I can only accept them as ex parte statements.
I have asked the hon. Gentleman whether he will take sworn statements from these repatriated soldiers who are now in this country, and I want to know why that has not been done.
The Department concerned is Taking the proper course of applying for information to the ordinary channels through which we get information of this sort.
Does the hon. Gentler man seriously suggest that the proper way to obtain information about Gilliland is to get it from Gilliland himself? Why not obtain the information from the soldiers who are here?
I have already said, in answer to the question, that I accept in substance the statement my hon. Friend has put upon the Paper; but what I do object to, and what the Department reasonably objects to, is that these statements should have been put upon the Paper as statements of fact before the other side of the question had been inquired into.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I put this statement upon the Paper in consequence of information received from these soldiers who have returned, and is not that as good authority as any that Gilliland will supply?
I think the proper course when the honour of a British officer is concerned is to approach, first of all, the proper Department, and, if no satisfaction is given, then the proper course might be to put down a question.
Is it not a fact that the War Office has already been approached and because of their failure to take action it was necessary to raise the question here?
I am informed that the War Office has only recently been approached and the only way we have been approached is through the medium of this question.
Is it not a fact that the War Office was approached over three weeks ago?
I agree that this is a very serious matter, and that the honour of a British officer is involved, but the honour of this country is involved also, and I want to ask why seeing that the War Office had these charges in their possession three weeks ago the soldiers repatriated from Bulgaria had not been asked for statements.
It would be the proper thing in ordinary civil proceedings to find out the other side first, and that step has been taken.
Why not hear the complaints first, and then ask for the defence?
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he will say how the amount of meat allowed to prisoners of war in this country compares with the allowance of meat made to British prisoners of war by the enemy in Germany; whether His Majesty's Government hold large stocks of cured Norwegian herrings in this country, the retail price of which is 4d. per lb.; whether any of these are utilised for the feeding of prisoners of war; if so, what is the ration thereof per head per week based on the total number of prisoners of war in this country; and whether he will consider the possibility of utilising these herrings to a larger extent for this purpose and so reducing the consumption of meat by prisoners of war?
German prisoners of war in England receive 6 oz. of meat on five days in the week, or 30 oz. in all. According to our information, British prisoners of war in Germany never receive more than 12½ oz. of meat, and in many cases much less. Our military authorities hold large stocks of salted herrings, and 10 oz. of these are issued two days a week in place of meat. It is not thought that the meat ration could be reduced without impairing the efficiency of the prisoners' work.
Am I to understand that 10 oz. of herrings is the average for prisoners of war in this country?
On two days a week the prisoners get no meat, and they get 10 oz. of herrings.
( by Private Notice ): I beg to ask whether the hon. Member for the Central Division of Sheffield has any further information as to the exchange of prisoners of war under The Hague agreement?
My hon. Friend will have read the statement made in another place yesterday by my Noble Friend Lord Newton. In addition to this statement, I may say that we have been informed this morning that the German authorities have agreed to the conditions suggested by us for the transport of exchanged prisoners to and from Holland. The date on which the first sailing will take place rests now solely on the choice of a route between Rotterdam and Boston, and I understand that this matter is now in the hands of the Admiralty. My Noble Friend desires me to add his high appreciation of the energy and zeal in bringing this settlement about shown by Sir Walter Townley, our representative at The Hague, and Lieutenant Aveling, who has been in charge of the negotiations.
Is there now any further difficulty in regard to vessels for transport?
No. I understand that the difficulty in regard to vessels is now at an end. The route, however, has still to be finally determined.
Questions
Wives of Soldiers (Ejectment Order)
asked the Undersecretary for War if the War Office have any powers to protect the wives of soldiers serving with the Armies abroad from eviction from their cottages; and, if so, will he see that this power is exercised in the case of Mrs. Moore, the wife of a soldier now serving in France and the mother of eight children, who now resides at Murstead Rough, Witley, Surrey, whose landlady, Miss Powell, of Enton Green, Godalming, recently applied for an ejectment order against her?
No, Sir; I am afraid that the War Office have no powers in such a case. The matter is one to be determined by a Court of law. I understand that the general question is now being considered.
Wages Dispute (Clarke and Son, Limehouse)
asked the Undersecretary for War if he is aware that Messrs. Clarke and Son, biscuit manufacturers, of Thomas Street, Limehouse, are contractors to his Department; that a petition has been presented to the firm by the National Union of General Workers for an advance of wages; that after the petition was presented the firm discharged thirty of the workpeople; that the firm have decided to reduce the wages of others by amounts ranging from 13s. to 16s. per week; and if he will take appropriate action in the matter?
Messrs. Clarke and Son hold a contract for biscuits for the War Office. No complaints have been received in regard to the points raised in the question, but the matter is being made the subject of investigations by the Department, and I will communicate with my hon. Friend when these are complete.
Disabled Soldiers (Rural Occupations)
asked what steps, if any, are being taken to encourage partially disabled soldiers to return to rural occupations, either as occupiers or employés; and if persons desirous of engaging the latter should apply to the Labour Exchanges or the War Office?
I presume that my hon. Friend is referring to soldiers who are taking their discharge, and I think that his question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions.
Nurses (Supply Committee)
asked how many of the recommendations of the Supply of Nurses Committee have been carried into effect?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave on the 5th June last to my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln, to which I have nothing to add.
Wool Prices
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state what are the prices at present being paid to the farmers in Scotland for Blackfaced Cheviot and Border Leicester wools, respectively; and what check his Department has on the woolbrokers when they call the wool arbitrarily broken wool and make serious deductions from the prices remitted to the farmers?
The maximum price which has been paid by the Department in Scotland for unwashed Blackfaced wool is 12¾d., and for washed Blackfaced 14¼d. For Cheviot fleeces the price varies, according to the quality of the wool and the district in which it has been grown, from 18½d. to 22¼d. For washed wools. All wools in Scotland are valued by the officials of the Department. In the case of broken wool, woolbrokers are permitted to buy this wool direct from the farmer, and it is then taken over from them by the Department. No complaints have so far been received by the Department that any woolbrokers are purchasing any wools other than the recognised broken wool.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a series of deductions made from farmers under the head of broken wool, and the responsibility cannot be fixed as between the brokers and the War Office?
My information is that no complaints have been made.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that an inquiry is to be held next week into a complaint which has been received?
No, Sir.
Billeting Rates
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the military authorities compel the various householders to billet soldiers at the rate of 6d. per night for the first soldier and 4d. per night for the others; if he is aware that when the soldiers in question have week-end away the householders are not paid for the nights they are absent; if he is aware that in some cases as many as seven beds have been commandeered out of twelve; if he is aware of the complaint from the Blackpool people as to the amount allowed for billeting; and if he will take action in the matter?
The rates are as stated by my hon. Friend. As a rule temporary absence does not involve a discontinuance of the payments, and if my hon. Friend will give me particulars of the case he has in mind I will have inquiries made. So far as possible, the convenience of the occupier is considered by the police when they allot billets. The complaint from Blackpool was brought to my notice by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Blackpool and it is being considered.
Air Board (Offices)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether it is proposed to commandeer the offices of the Metropolitan Board of Works for the use of the Air Board; will he say how many rooms and how many employés have the Air Board at present in the Hotel Cecil; whether premises other than the Board of Works can be got in Government or Council's property; and whether he will give assurances to hotel users and hotel proprietors that no more hotels in the Westminster area will be requisitioned for Government work?
The acquisition of the offices of the Metropolitan Water Board, to which it is assumed the hon. Member's question refers, is under consideration by the Cabinet Committee on Accommodation. The number of rooms occupied by the Air Board in the Hotel Cecil is 595; for information as to the number of staff employed there my hon. Friend should address a question to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Air Board. No suitable premises are available which are the property of the Government or the London County Council. I can give no definite assurance that no more hotels in the Westminster area will be requisitioned for Government work; it is impossible to foresee what demands for accommodation may be made by War Departments.
War Stores (Utilisation)
asked the Minister of Reconstruction whether he has given any consideration to the best method of disposing of or of utilising war stores and material at the conclusion of the War with a view to the avoidance of waste?
This matter has been carefully considered by the Government, and it has been decided that, acting on behalf of all the Departments, the Ministry of Reconstruction shall be responsible for the consideration of the policy and methods to be pursued, and that an organisation responsible to my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Munitions, shall be responsible for the executive work involved. The preliminary arrangements are nearly completed and it is hoped that it may be possible to make an announcement on the subject in a short time.
Munitions
Christmas Holidays
asked the Minister of Munitions if, when granting holidays at Christmas to munition workers who desire to go to their homes in Ireland, he will issue special privilege tickets at reduced cost or allow them to travel free; and if he will see that shipping and railway facilities are granted?
Irish munition workers in Great Britain desiring to visit their homes at Christmas will be entitled to the same privileges as regards free or reduced fares as workers whose homes are in other parts of the country. In view of the difficulties of transport, the Board of Trade, whom I have consulted in the matter, are unable to give any pledge that additional shipping and railway facilities will be provided, but every effort will be made by the companies concerned to do all in their power to carry the holiday traffic.
Train Service, Ipswich
asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that on 1st October 150 female munition workers had to wait at Stowmarket Station for five hours for the last train to Bury St. Edmunds from Ipswich; if he is aware that dissatisfaction was caused in consequence among the munition workers; and if he will require the railway company to make arrangements when circumstances require it for the local train from Ipswich to Bury St. Edmunds to be run to Bury and back again to Ipswich in time to connect with the London train?
I have written to my hon. Friend about this matter.
Dismissal of Women Workers, Durham
asked the Minister of Munitions whether his attention has been called to the recent dismissal of twenty-one women from a shell shop in the county of Durham; whether he is aware that the dismissals have immediately followed the hearing of an arbitration case regarding the payment of these women; whether it is intended to replace them by young girls at a lower rate of wages; whether he has considered the effect of the action on the output of munitions in view of the fact that the women dismissed are admited to be good workers and that it will take some time to train young girls to take their places; and whether, seeing that such action is equivalent to an evasion of any award given by the Special Arbitration Tribunal on the difference submitted on behalf of these women, he proposes to take any action in the matter?
I am informed that the changes referred to are the result of some reorganisation in the working of the factory, and not of the pending wages award, which has not yet been issued. But there is some doubt about the exact position, and I am having further inquiries made.
Woolwich Arsenal
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that the out-station allowance to examiners from Woolwich Arsenal has been stopped; and whether it is to be a condition of service in future that examiners going to out-stations shall receive no allowance?
No instructions have been issued for the stoppage of out-station allowance to examiners from Woolwich Arsenal, nor is it to be a condition of service in future that examiners going to out-stations shall receive no allowance. If my right hon. Friend will give instances of stoppage of the allowance they will refully inquired into.
asked the Minister of Munitions whether any and, if so, what steps are taken to warn workmen in the Arsenal against losing time from work before summoning them before the tribunal; and whether the services of the local labour Advisory Board for the district are made use of in this connection?
In addition to the general warnings contained in the Ordnance Factory Rules and Regulations supplied to every workman, and in the rules for controlled establishments posted in every workshop, workmen receive individually, warnings from their foreman and other officials before action is taken before a munitions tribunal. The reply to the second part of the question is in the negative. As the result of a conference between the authorities at the Arsenal and the Local Advisory Board, it has been agreed that the Board's intervention should not be sought, unless the difficulty related to a whole shop or a group of shops, in regard to which the Board's intervention might be effective. In cases where individual workers were concerned it was agreed that the Board should not be asked to intervene, but that the Arsenal authorities should themselves either take disciplinary action or bring the case before the tribunal direct.
Skilled Men (Wages)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the addition of 12½ per cent. to the wages of skilled men engaged on munition work should be paid from 12th October last; and, if so, what action he proposes to take with regard to those employers who have only allowed the advance from 19th October or any later date?
The bonus of 12½per cent. is payable, not from 12th October last, but from the beginning of the first full pay following the 12th October last. In any establishment, therefore, in which the 12th October was the beginning of a full pay the bonus would not begin to accrue until the 19th October. An investigation will be made into any cases in which the advance has not been allowed until a date later than the 19th October, if my hon. Friend will give me particulars.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the committee appointed by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) to inquire and report as to the effect of alcohol on industrial efficiency have yet reported; and whether their Report will be published?
The Committee have nearly completed a Report on the Action of Alcohol on the Human Organism. I have already stated—on 16th August—that the Report of the Committee will be published.
Will the hon. Member state the names of the members of the Committee?
I do not carry them in my head, but I will give them to my hon. and gallant Friend.
Honours and Dignities
asked the Prime Minister whether, before recommending any person for any honour or dignity, in future he will satisfy himself that no payment or expectation of payment to any party or political agent is directly or indirectly associated with the grant of such honour or dignity?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which was given to a similar question by the hon. Member for North Somerset yesterday.
Evictions (Soldiers' Families)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the cases of cruelty and hardship through the wives and families of soldiers now serving with the Armies abroad being evicted from their cottages and experiencing difficulties in finding other accommodation, he will introduce some legislation making it illegal for a soldier's wife and family to be evicted?
This question is receiving consideration.
Enemy Aliens
asked the Prime Minister whether, after more than three years of war, he will now reconsider the policy of allowing enemy aliens in this country to be at large, saving in exceptional cases when their loyalty is most fully guaranteed, or in cases where they are only technically enemies, or are children or persons of advanced age; whether practically no British civilians in Germany are allowed to remain uninterned; and why we have not adopted a similar policy, with the exceptions indicated above?
I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which I made in the Debate on the Vote of Credit on the 31st October, from which he will see that the policy which he recommends for adoption is precisely the policy which is being followed. The large total of exemptions in this country is partly due to the fact that we have very many aliens here who are, as the hon. Member says, only technically enemies. There are no precise figures of British civilians in Germany who are allowed to remain uninterned, but the number is believed to be considerable. In Austria-Hungary the rule is not to intern British subjects
Is it safe in the interests of the country that the large number of 13,000 enemy aliens should be at large in our midst?
That is a question I endeavoured to answer the other day, and I have referred to a part of it in my reply to-day. The remaining cases are being constantly overhauled.
Building Materials Supply Committee
asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been drawn to the appointment of the Building Materials Supply Committee; if he will say whether the Government propose to include Ireland in their housing schemes and other reconstruction work; if so, why there is no Irish representation on the new Committee; and if he will say why Committees are appointed without consulting the Members of this House?
The claims of Ireland are, of course, being considered equally with those of other parts of the Kingdom in all reconstruction schemes. I am at present considering, in conjunction with my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, the best methods for dealing with the Irish aspects of the problems.
Does that mean that he would be a representative on the Committee?
No, not on this Committee. I think we will make special arrangements.
Palestine Campaign
Beersheba and Other Actions
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state generally the names of the regiments who composed the forces that captured Beersheba?
As soon as further information can be published as to the troops who took part in the capture of Beersheba and other actions in Palestine, without detriment to the public interest, it will be announced.
Questions
Coal Mines Control Agreement (Confirmation) Bill
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in any eventuality, the guarantee of profits contained in Paragraph 4 of the Schedule of the Coal Mines Control Agreement (Confirmation) Bill may impose a charge upon the Exchequer, either directly or indirectly, by interception of money which would otherwise be paid as excess profits duty?
No, Sir, the Government are advised that the guarantee referred to cannot in any circumstances impose a charge upon the Exchequer; nor—though the question does not arise—do they assent to the suggestion that the interception of money, which might be paid as duty, is the same thing as the imposition of a charge upon the Exchequer.
May I ask whether the Government have considered the advisability of founding this Bill on a Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means?
I take it that is the object of the question. The present view of the Government is that it will not be necessary. If there is reason to induce them to change their view they will, of course, put a Resolution before the House.
I beg to give notice that it will be necessary for us to raise this as a point of order when it is called on to-morrow.
National Service
Recruiting
asked the Minister of National Service the terms on which Army officers engaged on recruiting work have been taken over by the Ministry of National Service; are their services lent for the time being to his Department; do they continue to draw the pay and allowances suitable to their rank; and will their pay and allowances be borne on the War Office or the National Service Vote?
The whole recruiting staff other than that at headquarters and regional headquarters is at present on loan to the Ministry of National Service from the War Office. This arrangement was necessary to effect the transfer of the control of recruiting. So long as the officers continue to be on loan they will draw the pay and allowances of their rank from Army funds. In the course of next month those officers required by the Ministry of National Service will be individually transferred to the service of the Ministry and will, thereafter, be paid by that Ministry. I need hardly add that each officer who is offered an appointment under the Ministry of National Service will be free to accept or to decline.
Will the officer who accepts the conditions of National Service recruiting cease to be an officer in the Army?
That is a question to be answered by the War Office.
If it is true that the whole of the staff consists of Army officers lent by the War Office, will my hon. Friend say whether it is under civil control in connection with recruiting?
The control is not in the hands of individual officers of the staff. The control is in the hands of the Ministry of National Service, and the sub-control is in the hands of the regional headquarters, which are civilian in composition.
Is it not the fact that the same work is being done by the same people under a different Department?
The present arrangements are provisional. There must be a period during which the old arrangements are passing over into the new; but the con- trol is now civilian, both at the headquarters in London, and at the regional headquarters throughout the country.
Will they receive double pay—one from the War Office and the other from the hon. Gentleman's Department?
That is not the fact.
Is it not the fact that these soldiers will ultimately become civilians if they retain their positions?
They will be the same people if they continue in the service of the Ministry.
asked the Minister of National Service whether, in all posts connected with recruiting, strict priority will be given to officers and men who have been invalided home from active service but who are still capable of clerical work and light duty in connection with recruiting?
This has been the practice during the time the recruiting machinery has been under the administration of the War Office, and a circular letter was issued to commands some time ago containing definite instructions with regard to clerks. In so far as recruiting appointments may become vacant the claims of suitable officers or men invalided out of the Army will continue to receive sympathetic consideration. In connection, however, with such important duties as fall to members of the recruiting staff, the supreme test must be competence, temperamental suitability, and experience.
Questions
Petrol Control Board
asked the President of the Board of Trade what rent his Department pays for the Petrol Control Board at Almack's Club; how many clerks it will accommodate and what their work consists of; is he aware that his Department contemplates taking Berkeley House at a rental of £11,000 a year; and will he say why his Department cannot take houses at£150 a year each, of which ten would supply better accommodation?
The Petrol Control Board occupies three rooms and one lounge in Almack's Club. These were requisitioned under the Defence of the Realm Act. No claim has yet been received, and consequently no compensation has been settled. The rooms afford accommodation for about twenty clerks, whose work consists in the issue of licences in connection with the control of the distribution of petrol. The Government have not in contemplation the taking of Berkeley House. The latter part of the question, therefore, does not arise.
Shipping Rates
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether, as a result of the commandeering of British shipping by the Government at Blue Book rates, liner rates have been increased by 50 to 100 per cent. above the rates previously charged by the shipowners; whether neutral ships are now being chartered at rates several hundreds per cent, in advance of those of the Blue Book; and, if so, why it is necessary that such rates should be paid by a Government which controls the bunker coal supply and practically command the situation?
The answer to the first part of the question, as I explained in my statement to the House on the 31st October, is in the negative. Increases in liner rates have been due to increases in the cost of war risk insurance and other running expenses, and not in any way to the payment of lines at Blue Book rates. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative. The control of bunker supplies referred to does not render it practicable to compel neutral vessels to engage in Allied service at Blue Book rates.
May I ask if the figures do not indicate some risk in too drastic interference with this master key industry?
No, Sir. The figures indicate, as I stated to the House the other day, that we are endeavouring to arrange freights at rates to represent the costs, and nothing more.
Has it not the result that they are very largely raised as against those who want tonnage?
They are raised, but not as much as they would have been raised under other circumstances.
Do I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that before the Shipping Controller interfered, shipowners were carrying goods at freights which were less than the costs?
No. The market rates, as my hon. Friend is aware, were in many cases far above these.
Is not the real object to enable the Shipping Controller to make large profits out of shipping, which will go into the Treasury?
No, Sir. I hardly think it is fair of the hon. Member to make that statement after the clear statement I made the other day, showing that the position is the very reverse.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his clear statement was incorrect?
Perhaps the hon. Member will give me particulars of where it was incorrect.
City of Dublin Steamship Company
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller, with reference to the circumstances under which the cargo boats of the City of Dublin Steamship Company have been requisitioned by the Government and the management of them has been handed over to the representative of a rival steamship company, whether the allegations in consequence of which such a transfer has been made have been specifically and emphatically denied; and whether, in view of that denial, an inquiry will be ordered into the truth or otherwise of those charges and allegations?
I have gone very carefully into this matter, and have in previous replies stated fully the facts relating to the action of the City of Dublin Steam Packet Company which led to the requisition by the Government of the company's four cargo steamers. This step was only taken after very careful consideration by the Shipping Controller of all the circumstances and he does not feel therefore, that any useful purpose would be served by an inquiry such as my hon. and learned Friend suggests.
"Workers' Dreadnought."
asked the Home Secretary if he will say what particular article in the suppressed number of the "Workers' Dreadnought" was regarded by the authorities as very objectionable; whether he is aware that this issue of the "Workers' Dreadnought" has been reprinted by another firm and has been for some weeks on sale without interference by the authorities; why, in view of the undoubted fact that the police required the manager of the Blackfriars Press to undertake not to print the "Workers' Dreadnought" in future, the authorities at Scotland Yard stated that they had no objection to the Athenœum Press printing future issues of the paper; and, in view of the interference with the freedom of the Press, the liberty of the subject, and the rights of trade, of the action of the police in entering a printing office and destroying or threatening to destroy the printing plant, he will instruct the police that in future they must so act that the aggrieved party will have the right to have the complaint dealt with in a Court of law?
The police have not acted in such a way as to deprive the printers of the "Workers' Dreadnought" of their legal remedy. It is open to anyone who considers himself aggrieved by illegal action on the part of the police to sue them for damages, and in that way bring all the facts before a Court of law. In view of the possibility of such proceedings, I must refrain from offering any comment on the points raised by the hon. Member, but he must not assume that the statements of fact involved in his question are admitted.
Winchester Prison
asked the Home Secretary whether Rendel Wyatt, recently a prisoner at Winchester Prison, was put on bread-and-water diet for writing on his slate and showing to another prisoner Robert Browning's Epilogue?
Minor punishments for trivial offences against the Prison Regulations are not reported to the Home Office, and I should not feel justified—especially at the present time—in calling for Reports on them.
Is not an inquiry justified when what is termed an offence was not in reality an offence?
It is against the Regulations for one prisoner to communicate in writing with another prisoner.
Was not the Regulation intended to prevent improper communications, and was there any offence in a prisoner writing and showing to another prisoner the words of a great poem?
Metropolitan Police
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that certain men in the Metropolitan Police Force perform their duty in one period of eight hours, namely, rejoined pensioners and men employed on Government buildings; and whether he will consider the advisability of extending this arrangement to all men alike?
I am afraid that effect cannot be given to this suggestion. As has been frequently stated by my predecessors, the Commissioner of Police, upon whom rests the responsibility for apportioning and controlling the duties of the Force, has found it necessary, in the interests of the public, to maintain the four hours' tours of duty in the inner area, where the strain of work is specially severe.
British University Mission to Russia
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he can give any information concerning the British university mission shortly about to visit Russia; who are the members of the commission; whether its object is to advise on proposed changes in Russian universities or to collect suggestions for reforms in the universities of Great Britain; and whether any part of the cost of this mission will fall on public funds?
I have no information on the subject.
Waste Paper Case (Compensation)
asked the Attorney-General if his attention has been called to the case of Mr. Charles W. Hodges, who has been kept in custody from the 3rd August on a charge of the fraudulent conversion of waste paper; if he is aware that he has been kept in prison for nearly three months; if he is aware that Mr. Justice Atkin at the Gloucester Assizes made comments about an innocent man being kept in prison for such a length of time; if he is aware that accused was acquitted; and if it is the intention of the Government to compensate the man in question for the treatment he has undergone?
My right hon. and learned Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I have not previously heard of this case, but am making inquiries.
Exportation of Horses (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary whether it has been arranged to allow the exportation from Ireland of horses not required for commercial or agricultural purposes; whether he has received requests to that effect; and whether inquiries have been or will be made to enable an arrangement suitable to the interests of Ireland and Great Britain?
I would refer the hon. Member to the answers I gave to his questions on 22nd and 29th October, to which I may add that the Department of Agriculture hope to be able to arrange for some relaxation of the provisions of the Horses (Prohibition of Export from Ireland) Order, 1917, in the course of a few weeks.
Coal and Iron (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the coal and iron fields of Arigna, extending into the counties of Sligo, Leitrim, and Roscommon, can only be properly developed through the construction of a short line of railway to Collooney on the Midland Great Western and Great Southern and Western Railway systems, twenty-one miles or thereabouts distant from the mines; whether he is aware that a company prepared to construct this line has been formed providing they get an Order in Council authorising them to do so; and, if so, whether, seeing that the fuel supply in the West of Ireland is fast running out, he will say whether the Order in Council sought for shall be granted?
I would refer the hon. Member to a written answer which I gave to a question by the hon. Member for the Harbour Division of Dublin in the OFFICIAL REPORT of 29th October.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the Secretary of State for India whether a decision has been arrived at with regard to extending the provisions of the Royal Warrant of August, 1917, relating to disability pensions to officers of the Indian Army and Indian Army Reserve; and what is the minimum pension now granted to an officer with wife and child invalided out of these forces owing to wounds sustained in the present War?
The question of extending to officers of the Indian Army and the Indian Army Reserve the provisions of the Royal Warrant of August, 1917, relating to officers' disability pensions is under consideration. The minimum pension under Indian Army Regulations for an officer of the Indian Army or the Indian Army Reserve invalided out of the Service is half-pay at 3s. a day for a second-lieutenant or lieutenant, but to this may be added a wound pension of£100 a year if a limb has been lost, or £50 a year in other cases of permanent and very severe injury. These rates are not affected by the fact that an officer has a wife and child.
Cider (Farm Labourers)
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether farm labourers are exempt from paying the 4d. per gallon duty on cider sold to them for consumption during working hours?
Duty is chargeable on cider sold to farm labourers whether for consumption during working hours or at other times. No duty is charged if the cider is made by the farmer, or purchased from a neighbouring farmer, and is supplied free of charge for consumption on the farmer's own farm by persons employed thereon.
Education (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state what measures are being taken to provide the necessary funds for teachers' remuneration, primary, secondary, and technical education in Ireland?
A supplemental estimate for elementary education has been sanctioned by the House. A supplemental estimate for secondary education is being prepared. The question of technical education is under discussion between the Department of Agriculture and the Treasury.
Will the Grant be made sufficient to meet the wants of technical education in Ireland, and has the right hon. Gentleman not received resolutions from the various district councils and school committees throughout Ireland?
As I have said, this subject is under discussion at the present time.
asked the Chief Secretary whether under the new scheme the first-grade national teachers of highly efficient service have been promoted to the first section of first grade; and, if not, will he say why this has not been done?
No promotions of teachers have yet been made under the new-scheme of grade salaries. The Commissioners of National Education have necessarily to await the decision of all the questions involved in the scheme before proceeding to bring it into operation.
When is the scheme likely to be put into operation?
The scheme will be put into operation very shortly.
asked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that in the 1898 edition of the National Board's Rules it is stated that teachers ranking second division of first class, on getting three very satisfactory reports, and on passing the examination for first of first class, which could be studied for at home, got promotion four years before their ordinary time; is he also aware that at present teachers who complete a third year's course of training at University College, Dublin, and pass a more difficult examination than that of the old first of first class, are credited with only one year's very satisfactory service; is he aware that the crediting to a teacher of one year's very satisfactory service is less ultimate gain in the Duke scheme of salaries than under the scale about to be superseded; and whether he will undertake to have this matter inquired into and an equitable arrangement made?
Under the Rules in force before 1900, National School teachers in the second division of the first class were promoted to the first division on the conditions mentioned in the question, and the practice with regard to teachers who have completed a third-year course at University College, Dublin, is as stated, but it is not considered that the examination is more difficult than the former examination for the first division of first class. In the opinion of the Commissioners of National Education the gain to the teacher is greater under the new scheme, and they do not consider that any sufficient reason has been shown for altering the proposed arrangements.
Evictions, Dublin
asked the Chief Secretary whether his attention has been directed to the evictions in Dublin city; whether shelter has been provided for those who have been or are to be evicted; whether he is aware that disapproval exists regarding those proceedings; and whether he will endeavour to arrange that those upon whom notices have been served will not be disturbed until suitable dwellings are available?
I am informed that the Crabbe Lane and Boyne Street areas in Dublin have been condemned as unfit for human habitation, and that the corporation have obtained Provisional Orders under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts for acquiring and clearing the areas. No tenant in these areas has been evicted, but orders for possession have been issued, and thirty-two ejectment summonses are listed for hearing in the Police Courts on the 7th November. I anticipate that the Corporation of Dublin will not proceed to evictions unless dwellings for the persons in question are available.
Am I to understand distinctly from the right hon. Gentleman that no one will be evicted unless accommodation has been previously provided for them?
The hon. Gentleman is really asking me to give a pledge as to what the Corporation of Dublin will do. Surely in the nature of things I cannot do that? But the opinion I have expressed is one of confidence in what the Corporation will do.
Personal Explanations
I ask leave to correct an error into which I fell yesterday in a supplementary question to the Leader of the House, and in which I may have left the House under a misconception. I, in effect, described the normal procedure of the Council of India when the Secretary of State is not present. The suggestion I made was correct as to the usual practice, but I have since learnt that in one respect it has been modified in consequence of the absence of the Secretary of State on his mission to India, and that the Under-Secretaries of State, though not voting in Council, are now empowered to address the Council on the subjects which come before them. As the matter is of some importance, I thought I ought to correct it.
I would like to ask the permission of the House to make a very brief personal explanation. Last Wednesday on the Vote of Credit I made a speech on the subject of the German spy system. After the Home Secretary had replied I left the House. The hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King) subsequently spoke. His words carried the intention and interpretation that I had used my privileged position as a Member of this House to attack a gentleman outside, who was supposed to be a trade competitor of myself. The words I complain of are as follow:
"It is a very mean thing for him, a chemical manufacturer, to attack another man standing very high in the same business, and knowing, as he does, the peculiar position which Dr. Markel occupies in that profession."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st October, 1917 col. 1591.]
It was only on Monday last that I learnt for the very first time that this gentleman had had any connection whatever with the chemical industry. I was informed on that day that he has been, I believe, for many years connected with the firm of Messrs. Brunner, Mond and Company. So far from this gentleman, or even this firm, being in any way a trade competitor, I feel that I must point out to the House that my private business interests depend absolutely on the grace and good will of this firm for raw material. Were it not for the very high standing of this firm, I ought to have been attacked for dealing with a matter of public interest which might, under other circumstances, have been very seriously to my own personal and private disadvantage. I assure the House on that occasion I spoke in absolutely good faith, and only because I thought it was in the interests of the country.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to—
Bills of Exchange (Time of Noting) Bill, without Amendment.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
May I ask whether the House will sit on Friday?
We do not propose that the House shall sit on Friday.
Can the Leader of the House say whether it is proposed to-day to take the Naval and Military War Pensions Bill?
No, Sir; it is not proposed to take it.
When will the Petroleum Bill be taken?
I cannot yet say what day.
Representation of the People Bill
Redistribution of Seats
New Schedule
Considered in Committee.—[Progress, 5 th November. ]
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
[ For terms of Schedule, see Supplement to Votes, pp. 1743–1826. ]
PART I.—PARLIAMENTARY BOROUGHS. (2) ENGLAND, EXCLUDING LONDON AND MONMOUTHSHIRE. Name of Parliamentary Borough. Contents of Parliamentary Borough. Total Number of Members for Parliamentary Borough. Names of Divisions of Parliamentary Borough. Contents or Boundaries of Divisions. York … … County Borough of York (with York Castle) One — —
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "One" and to insert instead thereof the word "Two."
The object of this Amendment is to preserve to the city of York a right which it has exercised, certainly for six and a half centuries, and probably for seven and a half centuries, of sending two representa-
tives to Parliament. If we look at this question from the test of population, alone, as laid down in the Speaker's Conference, neither the City of London nor the city of York would be entitled to two representatives. The city of York at the present time is estimated to have about 84,000 inhabitants, but, being a military centre, the voters' list is certain to be largely increased by the soldiers' vote when the present Bill comes into operation. But the case of the city of York does not rest on the mere test of population. The Bill conceded to the City of London, although its population does not nearly reach the number which the city of York possesses, the right to special treatment, and to continue its present two members by reason of its special position amongst the London boroughs; and our claim for the city of York is that, by reason of its unique and exceptional position among the provincial boroughs of England, it should be allowed a similar treatment and a similar right to retain its two members.
Our claim for special treatment rests upon the Parliamentary, municipal, ecclesiastical, and military history of the city, and its general historical record. Of its general historic record I need say but little. The history of York is in large measure the history of England, and it is known to most Members of this House. From the early years of the Christian era, when London was a small village, and many of the great industrial cities of
England to-day were either non-existent or small places, York was the centre of the power and civilisation of Rome in the North, and from those days onward it became a great centre of Roman power, the birthplace and the seat of government of Roman Emperors. From those days onward York witnessed, and not infrequently influenced, those great events by which the destinies of England have been moulded. Walk through the streets of York to-day and you will see in its monuments, in its walls, in its buildings, a record in bricks and mortar of those successive waves of civilisation which have swept over this country during the past nineteen centuries.
I pass from this brief retrospect to more detailed considerations. Let me take the Parliamentary representation of the City. In the year 1160, seven and a half centuries ago, it is recorded that the first Parliament mentioned in history was summoned by Henry II. to meet in York, and from that day onward Parliament during the Middle Ages frequently sat in this historic city. Let me pass to the year 1265. Perhaps I may be allowed to quote from a Return made to this House in 1878 of the names of all the Members who ever sat in this House, so far as their names could be ascertained, and the names of the constituencies which they represented, and I find that on 20th January, 1265, Parliament was summoned to assemble in London, and
"Writs were issued to the sheriffs, and to the cities of York and Lincoln, and the other boroughs of England, to send two knights, citizens oil burgesses respectively."
It is further stated:
"This appears to have been the first complete Parliament consisting of elected knights, citizens and burgesses."
With the exception of the names of York and Lincoln, there is no record there of the boroughs which were represented in that Parliament. For the year 1295 we have the first complete Return of counties and boroughs which sent Members to Parliament, and of the names of Members in each case; two Members being returned for each county and two Members for each borough, and amongst those boroughs is the name of the city of York. Since those days many boroughs have been created, abolished, or reformed, but throughout the long list of centuries the city of York, from those days down to the present hour, preserved an unbroken chain of representatives which it sent to Parliament. May I turn from that to the municipal record? In the early days of the twelfth century, or possibly earlier, York received a charter of incorporation. In the year 1389 the King conferred on the Mayor of York of that day the dignity of Lord Mayor, and a few years later it became a county of a city, with two sheriffs. The Lord Mayor of York to-day is the 530th holder of that office, and the Sheriff of York is, if I am
4.0 P.M.
The ecclesiastical history of the city of York is even more venerable in its character. Sixteen hundred years ago it was recorded that three bishops from England and Wales attended the Council of Aries. There was the Bishop of London, the Bishop of York—and this will interest some of my hon Friends of the Principality—the Bishop of Wales. I pass by three hundred years and I find that in 625 A. D. Paulinus was enthroned the first Archbishop of York, and from that time onward there has been one unbroken line of Archbishops of York, and the city of York, enriched as it was in later years by the great shrine of York Minster and by the abbey church of St. Mary's, now in ruins, has been the centre of religious life and teaching in the North of England, and to-day it is the meeting-place of Convocation of the Northern Province.
What about highwaymen?
That is an Interesting historical record which for the moment I pass over. Let me say a word about its military records, and no apology is needed for referring to the military annals of the city of York. From the earliest days of the Roman occupation down to the present day the city of York has been a place of arms and a great military centre. It is to-day the headquarters of the Northern Command, which extends from the Scotch border down to Norfolk, Staffordshire and Derbyshire, and has been and is a great training ground for the soldiers of our country.
Let me add one other claim of the city of York to distinction. Not only is it the capital of the greatest of England's counties, but it has for generations past been the capital of the North, and in the sixteenth century it was the seat of the Council of the North which had a great influence upon the history of the country. I think these facts entitle York to special treatment in the representation of its two members. Some hon. Members will argue that if these claims are conceded there might be other boroughs in a similar position. [HON. MEMBEES: "Hear, hear!"] It may be said that other boroughs will claim similar treatment, and that might cause some embarrassment to the Home Secretary. My answer to that argument is "No." There are no other boroughs that could justly claim similar treatment, and I make that statement after an examination of the facts. I have looked into the records, and if the House will permit me I will give one or two figures to establish my contention. In the Parliament of 1295 and the immediately succeeding Parliaments the names of 118 boroughs in England are enumerated. I have traced the Parliamentary history of those boroughs and I find that at the present moment in 1917 of those 118 boroughs some seventy-four have entirely disappeared under strokes of fortune or the submerging wave of reform, and twenty-seven have long since ceased to return two members and only return one. Five of them now return three members or more and twelve only of the original 118 boroughs still continue to return two members.
May I point out to the House how the Bill proposes to deal with these twelve remaining boroughs? Of the twelve, four will receive three or more members under this Bill. They are Leicester, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Plymouth and Portsmouth. Four of them will be allowed to retain their present two members, namely, Derby, Norwich, Preston and Southampton. There remain four in regard to which it is proposed in each case to take away one member, and those four are Bath, Ipswich, Northampton and the city of York. With every respect to those three honourable and ancient boroughs which I have mentioned, I do not think any one of them could justly claim the same special historical record, or the same historical distinction as can be justly claimed for the city of York. Those are my only three competitors and they have not raised any claim in this Debate to be specially treated, although I wish to accord every honour to their long historical and Parliamentary history. I do not, however, think that they can claim the same special treatment which I claim for the city of York.
I ask the Home Secretary with confidence to favourably entertain this proposal. Let me point out that if he accedes to this claim he is violating no principle laid down by the Speaker's Conference, and no principle laid down in this Bill, but merely extending an exception which was granted by the Speaker's Conference as a reasonable conclusion, and extending the special privilege granted to the City of London to the city of York on similar and at least as strong grounds as the privilege was granted to the City of London, Let me suggest that if the right hon. Gentleman accedes to this claim he does no injury to any other constituency. I grant that it will add one more member to the Imperial Parliament. There are some who think that there are too many of us already, but when you consider that that is the sole and only objection that can be urged against this proposal, I think it is outweighed and overbalanced by the considerations to which I have referred. If you grant this claim of York you will certainly not be granting any special favour to any political party. During twenty-five years' experience of the city I have learned what a good many other people have learned, that the division of parties in the city of York is fairly evenly balanced, and if you intend to continue the two members you will not give any unfair advantage to one party or the other.
If the right hon. Gentleman cannot actually support this Amendment, I would like to ask if he will at any rate leave it an open question for the House to decide. I hold in my hand a petition which I have presented to him signed by no less than 146 Members of this House of all shades of opinion and party, asking the right hon. Gentleman to leave this an open question. The list, which I have no doubt the Home Secretary has fairly examined, contains the names of Unionists, Liberals, and Labour men and Irish Nationalists, a good many of whom are supporting this claim. Let it not be said, if the right hon. Gentleman agrees to leave this an open question, that he is showing any undue favour to the city of York, because he will only be complying with this largely signed request on the part of hon. Members of this House. If there is any other Amendment in a similar position to this where the proposer wishes to leave it an open question, if he can produce a petition signed by 146 Members urging the Home Secretary to leave it an open question, he will not only be justified in asking that it should be left an open question, but the Home Secretary will be almost bound to do so having regard to the facts. England to-day is and must be governed democratically. The fundamental basis of representation, is and must as a rule be numbers. But it is already conceded in this Bill that consideration ought and should be given to the special claims of our ancient seats of learning and education as exemplified in our old universities, and to special distinction arising from historical associations, as in the case of the City of London. In the hope that similar consideration may generously be accorded by this House to the city of York, to which I personally owe so much—that I may he allowed to say by way of gratitude—I commend this Resolution to the Committee.
I will not detain the Committee long in supporting the Amendment which my hon. and learned Friend has just proposed. I admit frankly that the arguments advanced for the retention of two seats in York would not hold if the test of population alone were applied. But what is the case? Whilst that test has generally been applied to the country, the City of London has been accorded special treatment because of its unique position and its special history. I want to suggest to hon. Members that if it is right for the City of London to have special exemption, it is also right for the city of York for practically the same reasons. I see the junior Member for the City of London in his seat. I remember that he was on the Speaker's Conference. ["An HON. MEMBER: "For a while!"] Yes, for a while, and whether it was his persuasive tone or not that was instrumental in procuring this special right for the City of London I do not know. Keeping in view the point that our claim is on account of the special exception that has been made in the case of the City of London, I should like to remind the Committee that York was the capital of Roman Britain standing higher in importance than London, and that York was the Saxon capital. I think it was Edwin who made it such, and I believe it is Mr. Green who says it is because it is a spot where so much remains to tell of the greatness of Rome. York for many centuries has been recognised as the capital of the North, and in civil and historic matters York has been universally acclaimed the second city in the Kingdom.
Reference has been made by my hon. and learned Friend to its municipal history. York and London had mayors three centuries before any other town. Until the nineteenth century York and London were the only cities to have lord mayors. I remember when my father was lord mayor of the city of York. There was a tradition, which I believe was well founded, that the lord mayoralty of York was more ancient than that of London. The belief was that while the York title was conferred by the Crown, the origin of the title in London was traceable to the fact that the mayor of London was also lord of Finsbury. When you come to deal with its Parliamentary history, research will show, as my hon. and learned Friend has said, that York has sent two members to Parliament uninterruptedly since 1265. No other constituency except London can show such a record. My hon. and learned Friend might also have added that at the present day York is the most admirable example of proportional representation that can be shown by any constituency. Enough has been said to show that just as the City of London has been accorded special treatment because of its unique history, so York amongst the provincial cities and towns should receive similar special treatment for the same reason. I appeal with confidence to the Committee to support the Amendment which has been moved. I want, in conclusion, to add my plead to that made by my hon. and learned Friend to the Home Secretary to leave this question to the unfettered judgment of the House. There is a large volume of opinion that on all matters of detail it would be better more frequently to leave questions to the open judgment of the House, and in the petition that my hon. and learned Friend has presented to him, the Home Secretary has had very ample evidence of the very large volume of feeling in favour of this important Amendment being left to the free and unfettered consideration of the House.
One does not like to interfere in a case like this, except upon a question of principle. I do not suppose that anybody in the House is prepared to deny the extremely characteristic history of York in the development of this country, but personally I think the Government will be making a great mistake if they do not stand firm upon this and upon certain other Amendments that follow upon the Paper. There is already a feeling in the country that the agricultural interest is certainly not over represented, and we have no right whatever under these circumstances to allow sentimental, traditional, or historical reasons to lead us to still further increase the predominance of the towns over the country in the next Parliament. That applies not only to this Amendment, but also to other demands to save certain boroughs that follow upon the Paper. An attempt has been made to compare York with the City of London. I do not think really it is a very happy comparison. No one suggests that there is an enormous body of people coming into York in the daytime, and taking part in the life of York, and going and sleeping some miles away from it at night. The position in the City of London is a very different one. Personally, I regret that exception was made, and I think there are a good many people who regret it, but there is really not sufficient resemblance between the City of London and York to justify this exception being made.
How can the Government possibly justify this discrimination in favour of York to the detriment of another Yorkshire town? I take the town of Halifax. There is a population there of 100,000, and they lose a member. York, I think, has only 13,000 above the 70,000 fixed by the Commissioners, and it is now seriously claimed it should be given an extra member. Not only on the ground that you would be still further increasing the predominence of the towns over the agricultural districts, but also on the ground that you would be giving York a preference over other towns, I consider the Amendment a wholly objectionable proposal. I can mention any number of them. They are no doubt familiar to hon. Members. There is Burnley with 109,000, Rochdale with 93,000, and Grimsby with 101,000.
New boroughs.
Halifax is not a new borough.
I do not think it will be found that Halifax was represented in the Parliament of 1295.
No; but if I were to go back to the days when Winchester was the capital of England I should be putting forward a totally different argument. We are in the twentieth century and are trying to carry out the principles of two great parties, one party which wants one man one vote, and another party which wants one vote one value. If we make an exception in the case of York, instead of giving one vote one value, we shall be giving one value to a vote in one town and another value to another vote in another town. We are taking one member away from Winchester, which has great traditions and a unique history. We are taking one member away from Canterbury. There are a number of other towns. Both Chester and Shrewsbury have a great history, and yet they are losing what they have had for centuries. If we start making exceptions, where are we going to stop? Supposing other towns go on increasing and York decreases, are we still always to say, because in the twelfth or thirteenth century York had two members, that it is still to have them? There are other cases of historical boroughs, apart from those I have mentioned, which will occur to many people. I rather think that Northampton has an old Parliamentary history.
Northampton has two members now and it loses one, but it has not the same historical traditions as York.
It has a very long Parliamentary tradition, and, as far as I remember, on a most unusual occasion, one of its members, in seconding the Address to the Crown, told us a pitiful story about Northampton going to lose one of its members. If you start, I dc-not see where you are going to stop. It is all very well to say that York is the second city of England, but that is not the sort of thing one would say in Birmingham if he wanted to secure a respectful hearing. If we are going to allow the fact that there has been a strong beat-up on this matter to influence the Government, we shall make a great mistake. Yorkshire has a large number of members, and it is not very likely that any member for Yorkshire, whether he be a Liberal, Labour, or Conservative, is going to do anything but identify himself with this claim and do his level best to get the Amendment carried, but it is not for us to consider what Yorkshire and a few of its friends want. We have to preserve the just balance of the Bill, and it would be a great mistake to allow people to bring into this fair compromise purely historical and traditional interests. Above all, we ought to be careful that we do not add one more seat to the weight of the towns over the already decreasing weight of the agricultural constituencies.
I should have been very glad to have heard the last speaker make a speech from the point of view of a cathedral city, because he has unsuccessfully wooed two cathedral cities in succession. A Yorkshireman by descent, a cockney by birth, a man of Middlesex by representation, I am interfering now as the official spokesman of the city of York —as its Recorder. Associated as I am with the Metropolis, or what I prefer to call the ancient and principal county of England, namely, Middlesex—a county which existed before London had attained any dignity at all, and when London county was nowhere—I am putting forward the case of the city of York this afternoon because I feel that the claims of York are unique. I am only too glad to say how much I esteem! the learning which I know my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hemmerde) has on these particular subjects, but I am sure he will admit that Chester has got its notoriety by reason of its being the garrison town for the Welsh to keep in order that turbulent young nation. Shrewsbury had a similar occupation in a lesser degree. I agree that Winchester rises majestically above the others. It was the home of the kings, but there was only one man who called himself Henry of Winchester. How many are there who have been Dukes and Royal Dukes of York? Our present monarch was the Duke of York. King James II. was the Duke of York. The present Prince of Wales is Duke of York, and many sons of the reigning Sovereigns have borne the title. You have only to search back right to Edward III., the great founder of the Plantagenet race, and you will see that the title of Duke of York has existed practically all the time.
What about the Duke of Lancaster?
The Earl of Lancaster is one of the King's alternative titles. One knows perfectly well that if there were an objection to this extra seat it should come from the Ormskirk Division of Lancaster, or from Preston, whose honourable Members are representatives of the great family of Stanley.
What were the two cathedral cities that I wooed?
I always thought that the hon. and learned Member unsuccessfully contested Winchester and Shrewsbury.
Shrewsbury is not a cathedral city.
I stand corrected. I was disposed to multiply the cathedral cities unduly. Before I leave the antiquity which York claims, does the Committee realise that for the first half of the Middle Ages and later still York was the centre of life of everything that was English? Have we no imagination? Cannot we go back to the days when the Roman Court was at York, while London was little more than a fosse and a mere collection of mud huts? I want the Committee to remember that Constantine was crowned at York in the early days of the fourth century, that his father reigned at York, and that Severus died at York in the year 211. Of the whole of the northern part of this country I will go as far as to say that at that time York was the only part that was worth anything at all, because the southern part of the Saxon kingdoms made a somewhat poor show. This city has an extraordinarily high connection with the welfare of this country. It is a city described by one historian as the mother city of Constantinople. Is not that a reasonable claim? I am not putting it forward myself, but a well-known historian does. Is it not true? Was not Constantine the founder of Constantinople? He was made an emperor at York, and can it not there fore be rightly said that York became the mother city of Constantinople? I am afraid that York is not very proud of her offspring at the present moment, or of the deeds that have gone on there. When we are asked to consider the prosaic modern point of view, is it not worth while putting into the scale against that the fine history of the city of York, ecclesiastical and royal? My hon. and learned Friend imagines that we should be putting another vote into the town scale. Is there a city in the whole of the kingdom more agricultural than the city of York? I know that my hon. and learned Friend has not been there to stay, otherwise he would not have made two mistakes. Let him go there on market days—
I have been there.
Have you been there on market day?
Yes.
Have you seen that noble square which bears the name of Parliament Street, which on market day is filled with every kind of country produce and with every conceivable kind of Yorkshire-man attending the market? Can you then say it has no agricultural interest? The interests of the city are bound up with agriculture, in so far as they are not bound up with the industry belonging to ray hon. Friend (Mr. Rowntree). So much for the claim of town against country. Another mistake was made with regard to York's importance from the military standpoint. I want to call the Home Secretary's attention to the Debate which took place on the 11th June upon the Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners. A Motion was then before the House moved by the hon. Member for Windsor (Mr. James Mason). Sir A. Clavell Salter, now one of His Majesty's judges, who then sat for the Basingstoke Division, which includes Aldershot, pointed out that the effect of the proposals of the Commissioners upon his constituency, owing to the short period of qualification, and the introduction of soldiers' votes, would give him an enormous number of constituents under the Bill. He pointed out that with a population of something like 70,000 persons, the addition of the soldiers' vote and the vote of such of their wives as were qualified would give him an electorate approaching 40,000. It appears that the Boundary Commissioners have never altered their original proposals regarding the city of York. They have not taken into account the Motion of the House, directing that something in addition to mere population should be considered and should govern them in special cases. Here is a special case like that of Aldershot. Here you have the centre of the northern military command, with a large number of troops settled there, and, in a good many cases, settled there for a good many months during the year. These men will bring their womenfolk, and these people will, with the short qualification introduced by the Bill, become entitled to vote. How can it possibly be said that 83,600 of civil population is the true basis of the population in York, as it will be under the Bill.
There is another aspect of the case When the War commenced in August, 1914, there was a very large town-planning scheme actually in process of being carried out. Those of my hon. Friends who can see the large patches of green on the map I now produce will understand that they represent a portion of the city which had been planned out and was already in course of being developed, which would have added enormously to the population. In the centre of the old city is a large shaded area where industrial dwellings were actually in course of erection by the corporation when the War started. Therefore it is no true criterion to take the figure of 83,000 in 1914 as the population. It is a very insecure computation, and it has no real ground at all as a basis of calculation. When you come to analyse the true condition of things as they will be when the Bill comes into force with the short qualification period, you find that the population will be considerably more than 83,000, which it is at present. That is a modern reason which I hope will go far to satisfy my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hemmerde) and will permit him to allow sentiment to rule him once—at any rate for a time. When peace is restored and the normal condition of things returns, he will see that York is far from being a decaying city—in fact, it is an increasing city.
When my hon. and learned Friend says that York is not like the City of London because it has no shifting population, I would invite him to recall that from morning till night trains come and go from the central station filled with men who work in the city and leave it for their homes at night. In that respect York is in a similar position to that of London, although the case may not be so great. Having regard to its Royal connections, to its grand historical traditions, this city stands apart from any other city in the United Kingdom. It was the cradle of a kingly race and really of the true British race for centuries. I do not care which page of English history you take, or whose history you take, whether one of pure narrative or of political history, you will find the town of York recurring like a recurring decimal. It cannot be kept out; it is in the centre of everything. This Committee will be inflicting a very grave injustice on York if, in spite of all these things, it deprives it of a second member. There is one fact which ought to commend itself to the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). It happened as recently as 1779. The citizens of York were so disturbed at the extravagance of the Government and of the conduct of the War with Spain that a county meeting was held at York, where a petition was resolved upon to be sent to the Commons in support of public economy. Associations were formed to promote that object and for the restoration of the independence of Parliament. It is a curious thing that York should have led the way in 1779 to petition this House; to restore its independence and cure its spendthrift proclivities. This shows that York has always been quite equal, from the point of view of public moralty, to the City of London. In all these circumstances, I trust the Committee will concede this point.
I rise to oppose this Amendment. I come from an important constituency, more than twice as large as York, and it has only two members. I oppose the Amendment on wider grounds. If it is carried there will be no limit to the Amendments that may be put forward on the same grounds. My answer to all the historical reminiscences we have heard is that we are not now talking of Constantine or of James H. We are discussing a Bill the title of which is the Representation of the People Bill. I hear hon. Members saying that York ought to retain two Members on the ground of tradition and history. We have been sent a circular signed by Members of this House, who would describe themselves as advanced Radicals, urging that York ought to retain its two members because it has an Archbishop. I suppose they wish to compensate him for the loss of his seat in the House of Lords by giving two seats in the House of Commons. Let them remember that Canterbury also has an archbishop and that Canterbury disappears altogether as a separate unit. I sympathise with York's great historical traditions; we all know that those traditions are part of the history of our country; but it must be remembered that York is not going to be destroyed. It will remain a constituency, and it gets its member. If the Committee were inclined to preserve a constituency on historical grounds, I feel sure they would be more inclined to keep Canterbury as a constituency. We are told that the city of York is a splendid example of proportional representation. What would happen to this country if all the constituencies did what York does?
We should have double members throughout. Proportional representation would be working, and there would be a member on each side for every constituency, with the result that the Government of the country would be entirely decided by an outbreak of influenza on one side or the other. I speak with some feeling on this subject. I have fought three elections in double-member constituencies, and nothing has struck me more than the extraordinary way in which electors have gone past individuality and voted straight for the cause which they honestly believe to be the right one. The voting on both sides has been extremely equal, and people have probably voted, not for the man but for the cause. That, I submit, is the right way for a constituency to vote. In this matter York, so far from losing a member, will gain a vote in this House. In times past those who rightly take an interest in these matters have been unable to say whether York is in favour of one policy or the other. We now look with admiration on the great capital of the North, but have wondered on which side it is.
I put a question the other day as to whether the Government would allow the House to vote on certain questions without using the Government Whip, and I was told that they were considering the matter. I should like to know whether the Home Secretary or the Secretary for Scotland can tell us if the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of the Exchequer has done any more thinking about it. It would be wise if we were allowed to vote freely on these questions. This is not a war measure, and therefore there is no need for calling on hon. Members to say whether they support the Government or not. I would like to say one or two words about the City of London. Those who know anything about it are aware that there are 400,000 people, who come in in the morning, work throughout the day, and leave in the evening, on every week day. In addition to that, there are 600,000 or 700,000 other people who come in daily for all sorts of purposes and also go away. The City of London is an exceptional case altogether. You cannot make it otherwise. It is a city of which the United Kingdom has reason to be proud, and therefore there is justification for the exception which has been made in its favour.
I only rise to ask the Government to treat this question affecting the city of York in the same way as it treated our case for increased representation, for the county of London. I was one of those hon. Members who thought, not unfairly I submit, that we put up an unanswerable case for an extra number of members. In the course of the Debate the Home Secretary, who was in charge of the Bill, made certain remarks. He said:
"Although we must, of course, hear what is said by hon. Members in favour of an addition to the membership of the House, I shall listen to the discussion with a strong prejudice against any further increase of membership. I hope that in that general view, without prejudice to particular cases to be dealt with later, shall have the support of the Committee."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November. 1917, col. 1841.]
Lately, speaking on a specific Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman said:
"Here is an instance, the first of a whole number where a locality makes out a case, satisfactory to itself for a further increase. If the Committee yield to this case, I do not see how they can oppose all the other eases that are coming on. This is a very serious matter, and unless they make out a much better case than that made now, I think it is our duty to reject this Amendment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th November. 1917, col. 1880.]
I was among the number of Members belonging to both parties in this House who, when we knew our Amendment was coming on on Monday of last week, certainly thought we had a fighting chance of getting more members for London, because, with the exception of the Second Reading of the Bill, the Government have not issued a Parliamentary Whip for any part of the measure. But what was our surprise to find that, on Saturday night, a Government Whip was sent out, not in the ordinary way, but by telegram, asking Members to be present in the House personally, to vote down the London Amendment. What is more, the Government Whips were put on in order to tell against that Amendment. If that is the position the Government took up with regard to London, which we London Members think had an unanswerable case, I hope the Government is going to treat other places which are asking for additional member-hip on exactly the same lines.
I should like to impress on the right hon. Gentleman the fact that the demand which is made by the Mover of this Amendment is simply that he should leave the decision to the unfettered judgment of the Committee. I think we have a right to ask for that in view of the memorial which was sent to the right hon. Gentleman. That memorial has been spoken of as having been hastily obtained and as having been signed mainly by the friends of Yorkshire, which has so many members. But that is an entirely unfair description of the document. It represents sections in all parts of the House. This Debate has shown throughout an immense amount of humour, which every one of us who has listened to it must have enjoyed, but the one thing which emerges from it is absolutely clear, that in conceding this Amendment the right hon. Gentleman would be creating no precedent, because in the case of the City of London he has already granted the exception which we ask for. There have been many absurd statements made, but I do not think I need deal with this suggestion which was made by the hon. Member who last spoke. I do not want, either, to argue the difference between York and Canterbury and other places which have been mentioned. The only point I want to make is, that if the case of York is dealt with exceptionally no precedent is thereby created. I think it is a fair claim to make that the right hon. Gentleman should allow the House to express its unfettered judgment without the coercion of the party Whips, and to say whether they will allow one little ray of sentiment in history to shine in an otherwise long, dull heap of mere atoms of humanity with which this Bill deals. Let us have one place, at any rate, where we consider more than the mere counting of noses.
I can honestly say, in common with all Members of this House present, that I have derived great enjoyment from this Debate. After all the arid calculations which have occupied us for so long a time we have had an oasis of oratory based upon history and sentiment. I have only one regret about it, that it imposes on my right hon. Friend and myself a somewhat difficult task, because it forces us to balance the claims of sentiment against the claims of reason. No one could avoid going through something like an emotional struggle after listening to the speeches, but for myself I am bound to say I have come to a clear conclusion as to what our duty is. An argument based upon history and upon sentiment supported by eloquence is, of course, very strong. No one doubts or disputes that fact; indeed, we all agree, in view of the history of the city of York, that the claims which it has on the antiquarian and the historian and, indeed, upon all those who take an interest in the past of our country, are great. Every argument raised in this direction appeals to me, but arguments of equal weight, although not precisely the same, might have been urged in favour of other towns, such as Winchester, Westminster, Chester, and Edinburgh, and many other places. But I will not excite jealousy by giving a catalogue of all those cities which have a more than special claim upon our affections. If this Bill had been based on other principles than those which the House has accepted, there are many cases where I would gladly have seen larger representation given than is provided for in this Bill. But, after all, we have to go on certain rules. We are in this case asked to make an exception from the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. The case of York is distinctly a difficult one. On the basis of a population of 70,000 we have given one member, and we have given two members to places with a population of 120,000. York has 83,000. How does my hon. and learned Friend, who has great experience in riding across country, propose to negotiate that fence? That is the first difficulty in his way. We have been reminded that there is a military vote, and it has been suggested that it would add considerably to the electorate of York, Aldershot, and other places. But I understand that the Commissioners went into that matter and, having regard to the Amendment since made in the Bill, the military vote, speaking generally, would be cast not at the place where the men are quartered, but in the places from which they come, and, therefore, the military vote at York, Aldershot, and similar places will be very much smaller than was anticipated. That is only one point.
I am, of course, reluctant to come to a decision which must disappoint many Members of this House. As my hon. and learned Friend mentioned, I have had sent to me a memorial signed by, I think, 146 Members of this House belonging to different parties. It is a memorial not in favour of giving two members to York—I have reason to know that some of the signatories take the other view—but in favour of leaving this an open question. What would the effect of that be? This is a question which closely affects a particular place, and if in one instance we yield to the persuasion of a particular borough or county which has put forward a great effort in order to obtain support for its claims, we shall, I am afraid, open the door very wide to other claims of the same kind.
5.0 P.M.
We have had, amid some discouragement, but with the general support of the House as a whole, to resist the request of the great county of London and of other places for increases of representation. We did so without the least hesitation as to what our duty was, but knowing that we were causing disappointment to many Members of the House. After all, it is our duty not to yield to sentiment but to be hardhearted in these matters. That is what I am here for. If I gave way, or my right hon. Friends gave way, to our feelings and personal wishes, we should not be doing our duty to the House as a whole, or to those Members who are not here to-day. We have a duty to perform, and must be guided by reason and not by preference. I say that in yielding to this argument we should create an infinity of trouble in the future. I have in a few minutes to deal with the claims of the Principality of Wales for increased membership. I do not want to anticipate trouble, but I may have to be hardhearted there. Then we come to the case of Scotland, where my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland has a hard row to hoe. He would be in a difficulty, and I should cause him a great deal of trouble. If we give way to-day and say that we will throw a loose rein on the neck of the House we shall have trouble not only in the remaining stages of Committee on this Bill, but far greater trouble on the Report stage, because we shall be reminded time after time by Members of the House that in the case of York we gave way, not to reason, not to figures, but to feeling and preference. It follows that we shall find great difficulty in resisting pleas for a very great increase indeed in the membership of this House. I confess that a two-member borough does not attract me so much as some of the other things that have been referred to. If I knew which of the two members was going to be returned to this House my judgment might, of course, be affected, but as to that we know nothing. It is true, as the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Captain Tryon) said, that at present, while the voice of York is strong in this House, the vote of York is worth practically nothing at all; but quite apart from that consideration I have, I will not say with reluctance, but with a certain amount of emotional regret, come to the conclusion that it is the duty of the Government to resist this Amendment and to ask the Committee to agree to that decision.
Before the Committee goes to a Division may I express my most profound regret that, in the face of a petition signed by 146 Members of every shade of opinion in this House, the Government intends deliberately to coerce the Committee in the matter of voting? I know the Home Secretary tries only to do what is fair and right, but I must express my sorrow that his emotional regret did not carry him a little further, and did not allow him in a matter of this sort to accede to the wishes of this very large number of Members, and to leave the members of the Committee free to vote as they wish to vote. May I make this appeal to those hon. Members who have been good enough to intimate their wish to support this Amendment: not, at any rate, to be driven in this matter? Why should they? The Government will not fall, the heavens will not fall, if this Amendment is carried; and, therefore, let no supporter of the Government imagine that this is a war question, or a vital question, or a question on which the fate of the Government depends. It is one on which I do urge everyone to vote as they think proper, and in doing so they will not only each satisfy their own wishes and consciences, but will be giving some effect to the inward desires of the Home Secretary upon which, however, unfortunately, he found himself unable to act.
Question put, "That the word 'One' stand part of the Schedule."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 166; Noes, 72.
Division No. 105.] AYES. [5.8 p.m. Agnew, Sir George William Falconer, James Macpherson, James Ian Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Maden, Sir John Henry Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Fleming, Sir J. (Aberdeen, S.) Magnus, Sir Philip Anderson, W. C. Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Marks, Sir George Croydon Arnold, Sydney Gilbert, J. D. Mason, David M. (Coventry) Ashley, Wilfrid W. Glanville, Harold James Mason, James F. (Windsor) Baker, Rt. Hon. H.T. (Accrington) Goldsmith, Frank Middlemore, John Throgmorton Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Greig, Colonel James William Millar, James Duncan Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Molteno, Percy Alport Barran, Sir Row. Hurst (Leeds, North) Hackett, John Morgan, George Hay Beach, William F. H. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morison, Thomas B. Beale, Sir William Phipson Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Beauchamp, Sir Edward Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Bellairs, Commander C. W. Haslam, Lewis Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Bentham, George Jackson Hayward, Major Evan Nolan, Joseph Bethell, Sir J. H. Helme, Sir Norval Watson Nuttall, Harry Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Hemmerde, Edward George Ogden, Fred Boland, John Pius Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E. Outhwaite, R. L. Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Higham, John Sharp Parkes, Sir Edward E. Brace, Rt. Hon. William Hinds, John Partington, Hon. Oswald Bryce, J. Annan Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike (Darlington) Bull, Sir William James Holt, Richard Durning Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hope, Harry (Bute) Peel, Lieut.-Col. R. F. (Suffolk, S.E.) Carew, Charles R. S. (Tiverton) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Perkins, Walter Frank Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Hope, John Deans (Haddington) Peto, Basil Edward Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Philipps, Captain Sir Owen (Chester) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. Ingleby, Holcombe Pratt, J, W. Chapple, Major William Allen Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) Pringle, William M. R. Clive, Col. Percy Archer Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Randles, Sir John S. Cochrane, Cecil Algernon Jowett, Frederick William Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Collins, Major Godfrey P. (Greenock) Joyce, Michael Robertson, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Tyneside) Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Kerry, Lieut.-Col., Earl of Robinson, Sidney Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Kiley, James Daniel Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) King, Joseph Rowlands, James Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Runciman, Sir Walter (Hartlepool) Crumley, Patrick Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen) Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Melton) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Smallwood, Edward Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) Doris, William Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Spear, Sir John Ward Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Starkey, Captain John R. Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Mackinder, Halford J. Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Watson, J. B. (Stockton) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Sykes, Col. Sir Alan John (Knutsford) Watt, Henry A. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Tennant, Rt. Hon. Harold John Weston, Colonel J. W. Winfrey, Sir Richard Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Young, William (Perthshire, East) Toulmin Sir George Whiteley, Herbert J. Yoxall, Sir James Henry Tryon, Captain George Clement Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.) TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—Lord Edmund Talbot and Capt. F. Guest..—Lord Edmund Talbot and Capt. F. Guest. Walters, Sir John Tudor Williamson, Sir Archibald Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Barnston, Capt. Harry Hanson, Charles Augustin Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, C) Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glos., E.) Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.) Raphael, Major Sir Herbert H. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Blair, Reginald Hogge, James Myles Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Boyton, James Home, Edgar Scanlan, Thomas Broughton, Urban Hanlon Houston, Robert Paterson Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Burdett-Coutts, William Hughes, Spencer Leigh Stanton, Charles Butt Burn, Colonel C. R. Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. H. Cator, John Lane-Fox, Major G. R. Stewart, Gershom Cautley, Henry Strother Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Tickler, T. G. Cory, James H. (Cardiff) MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Tillet, B. Craik, Sir Henry Macmaster, Donald Touche, Sir George Alexander Dixon, C. H. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Turton, Edmund Russborough Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Meysey-Thompson, Colonel E. C. Wedgwood, Lieut.-Commander Josiah C. Fell, Arthur Middlebrook, Sir William Weigall, Lieut.-Col. W. E. G. A. Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Mount, William Arthur Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Field, William Nield, Herbert Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.) Fletcher, John Samuel O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) Ganzoni, Francis John C. O'Malley, William Yate, Colonel C. E. Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Gretton, Colonel John Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—Mr. Butcher and Mr. Rowntree..—Mr. Butcher and Mr. Rowntree. Haddock, George Bahr Parrott, Sir James Edward
I beg to move, after the paragraph relating to Carnarvon District Boroughs, to insert the following new paragraph:
I am sure that the Committee will be glad to give a few minutes to the important matter of the representation of Wales in this House. At present there are five seats for the counties of Denbigh and Flint, namely, the two county divisions for the county of Denbigh (eastern and western), a third for the county of Flint, and a borough constituency in each county. Under the recommendations of the Boundary Commissioners, two borough constituencies cease to exist, and become merged one in Denbighshire East and West, the other in Flintshire. The result, therefore, is that whereas up to the present these two counties have had a representation of five members they will only have three in future. The object of the Amendment is to amalgamate the two borough constituencies into one new constituency in order to reduce the representation from five to four instead of to three. The population of these two counties on the 1914 basis is 243,265, giving to the three seats, as proposed by the Com- missioners, over 81,000 of population each. Parliament is empowered to amalgamate borough contituencies in contiguous counties. This can be done in this case without in any way affecting the rights of the existing county seats in these two counties to separate representation in this House. May I give the Committee one or two of the local considerations in favour of the amalgamation of these borough constituencies? They have been in existence for nearly a century. The two counties are already united for many purposes—social, agricultural and industrial. If the Amendment were accepted and the new constituency formed, it would not in any way add to the dominance in this House of the borough representation. Again, all these contributory boroughs which it is proposed should be united are connected by railway. Further, there is a rapidly expanding population both in East Denbighshire and particularly in Flintshire.
New coal mines are being opened in East Denbighshire, and very important industrial developments are taking place on the banks of the river Dee in Flintshire. It is admitted by all who know the circumstances that the population in these two counties to-day is very much greater than it was in 1914, and in the near future there will be a very great further expansion. As a point of personal interest, I may mention that the present Member for the Flintshire Burghs is now serving his King and country very gallantly in the Army, and has already received marked recognition for what he has done If he had been here, I have no doubt he would have taken a very prominent part in bringing this Amendment before the Committee. In regard to my hon. Friend (Captain Ormsby-Gore), I feel sure that I am expressing the view of all Welsh Members that they would be exceedingly sorry for him to lose that seat. These are personal considerations, and I do not wish to press them beyond the mere statement of fact.
I have mentioned two or three of the local considerations underlying my proposal. I should like to mention one or two more general considerations which I think ought to be borne in mind. We who represent Wales think there ought to be some additional representation of Welsh constituencies. I know the view of the Government and of the Home Secretary that it is impossible to treat England. Scotland, and Wales as separate units under this Bill, and to place them upon a different footing, but when you have a result which gives to a particular part of the kingdom an advantage over the rest, that fact at all events ought to be considered by he Government, and some adjustment ought to be made in order to secure that every portion of the United Kingdom should have equal treatment. I was very interested in the Debate on Monday upon the London Amendment to hear the Home Secretary say something which appeared to me to move in this direction, and I made a careful note of his words. Here they are:
"We must consider the matter, not from the point of view of London alone, but from the point of view of the whole country, county and municipal boroughs as well as London, and also from the point of view of Scotland and Wales."
I could not help thinking that was an indication of his assent to the general proposition which I submit, namely, that when you come to have regard to the general results of redistribution under this scheme, an effort should be made by the Government so as to adjust the rearrangement of the representation as to place each of these various parts of the United Kingdom upon an equal footing. As an illustration of this, Scotland, under the scheme of this Bill, has a member for every 66,800 of population, England a member for every 71,000 of population, and Wales for every 72,000. In other words, if we in Wales were treated in this respect precisely as Scotland is treated, we should certainly have a claim to more than two additional members. As one who has been in this House for many years, and has watched the development of the franchise for a long time, may I express my very high appreciation of the work of the Boundary Commissioners, and I desire to thank them for the extreme courtesy with which they have listened to and considered the many representations which we have made to them. In every possible way they have endeavoured to meet the views which we have placed before them. I also desire to join in congratulating the Home Secretary in regard to the very high order of Parliamentary powers which he has displayed during the conduct of this Bill. Although I was a little disappointed a few minutes ago to hear him ejaculate a remark which was not encouraging to the case which I am now placing before the Committee, that does not lessen my admiration of the way in which he has discharged his task. I recognise his difficulties in, meeting the various contending claims. I hope that if, as he has already somewhat indicated, he is not able to-day to give a definite answer on this point, he will agree to postpone his final decision with regard to the representation of Wales to a later stage, when he will be able to survey the case of the Principality as a whole.
As Member for the constituency most concerned, I beg to second the Amendment. This is not a new proposal. Ever since redistribution was proposed we have been considering, in Wales and in this House, whether it would not be possible for us to preserve for the increasing population of the industrial area of North Wales some measure of representation such as has been given to increasing population of South Wales. As the Bill stands, North Wales loses a number of seats. These old borough seats, both in Montgomeryshire, Flintshire, and Denbighshire, are done away with altogether, while the Carnarvon Boroughs are only retained by adding to them a considerable portion of Carnarvon county and abolishing the county seat in Carnarvonshire. So we have endeavoured to do our best to secure in North Wales a means whereby the populous centres should be retained in the form of borough constituencies. Lest the agricultural members, who are always apprehensive regarding an increase in borough seats, should be nervous, I would say that several of these boroughs are purely agricultural in character. Boroughs like Holt, or a borough like Caryys, and even Ruthin, although it is an assize town, are really purely agricultural. I suppose in the borough of Holt you have got an almost unique form of highly specialised agriculture, which keeps its member very much in touch with agricultural development, for it is the centre of the strawberry industry in that part of the country which supplies the populous centres with fruit. This proposal is supported unanimously in Flintshire, and almost unanimously in Denbighshire and locally. The only difficulty we have met with has been raised by Wrexham. The borough of Wrexham is the largest of these contributory boroughs, and no doubt looks forward with some hope and confidence to the day when Wrexham will have a borough member of its own. Wrexham is a large and growing centre of the North Wales coalfields. Pits are being opened every year, and large housing schemes are only being held up by the War. Wrexham is an extremely important place, and I can quite understand that Wrexham does not exactly like being tacked on to Flintshire in the way proposed, as it feels, with some justice, that it is an important place by itself. There is no party question, because Liberals and Conservatives have cooperated in doing their best to retain for these growing populations in North-East Wales some representation in this House to meet what we believe is a growing necessity. At the present time the old Flintshire seat composed of the boroughs has a population of nearly 100,000, and that population is rapidly increasing. Under these circumstances, I would ask the Home Secretary to consider sympathetically the proposal put forward by North Wales Members to amalgamate these two sets of ancient boroughs to form a borough constituency.
I think I have a right to speak on this matter, because the hon. Member who has just sat down defeated me in Denbigh Boroughs by nine votes in December, 1910. I have a soft spot in my heart for the Denbigh Boroughs, and I do not want to see the boroughs go. The only way to prevent the boroughs going is by tacking them on to Flintshire. Both the Member for Flintshire Boroughs and the Member for Denbigh Boroughs volunteered for active service at the outbreak of the War. The Member for Flint Boroughs apart from being home wounded has been out at the War the whole of the time, and the hon. Member who has just spoken has been out and may have to go again. If they come back, as we all hope they may, it will be a pity for them to be able to say, "While we have been fighting for the country you take away our two seats." That is not a very satisfactory thing. Of course, that is sentiment. I recognise that reason on this Bill does not seem to go very far. There were strong arguments for increasing the representation of London, but London went down. There were strong arguments for York, but York went down, and I am afraid that if we converted all the hon. Members who are now listening to us, if we went to a Division all those hon. Members who are now listening to us would go into the Lobby against us, and Wales would be defeated the same as London and York. The arguments of reason do not seem to take us very far, but nevertheless the arguments in reason are very strong. It would not need a great deal of remodelling to carry out the proposal. You simply take the boroughs out of the counties and make them into one division, and this would not need any drafting or any great reshuffling.
The hon. Member referred to the Carnarvon Boroughs having been grouped together. I know something about the Carnarvon Boroughs. In Llandudno you have a big holiday resort, in other parts you have business places and they are grouped together without having common interests. It would be very difficult to-find in any group of boroughs each borough having the same interest. One borough would be concerned with one manufacture and another with another manufacture or industry. In others you get a market town. It would be the same in the Denbigh and Flint Boroughs if they were amalgamated. At any rate, they have this in common that they are two sets of boroughs which could be amalgamated and worked together. I would like to make an appeal to the Home Secretary. Some people say that he is very hard-hearted and determined. I do not believe that he is hard-hearted. He has now an opportunity to prove that he is not hard-hearted, by giving way to this sensible Amendment which will placate Wales. It is no use talking about the fact that Denbigh has a castle, and that Ruthin has a castle, and that Flint had a castle, and that there is a cathedral at St. Asaph. If the Home Secretary will respond to this appeal he will be giving something to Wales as a whole. He will be giving one more member to Wales. Both of the members for these boroughs, which are proposed to be amalgamated, are fighting in the War. Let us hope that after the War they will fight against each other for the representation of the united boroughs.
As one who used to represent one of these seats, I should like to add my voice to those who have spoken in support of this Amendment, and to ask the Home Secretary to sympathetically consider the giving of one more member to Wales, because that is what it really means. It is perfectly true that in these two counties you have a very rapidly increasing population. You have a population of over 240,000, to whom you are only giving three seats, and that in a district which has previously had five seats. When one considers how certain English counties have been treated this is certainly meting out rather hard measure to Wales. There is some feeling in Wales that they ought to have one or two more seats, and I suggest that this is almost the ideal place to make the concession of that one seat. You have, in the present arrangement, an average of 81,000 per seat, and anyone who knows the district will know that not only is the population increasing very rapidly in Flintshire, but it is increasing very rapidly owing to the mining developments at Wrexham. I maintain that these two counties ought to have four members instead of three. Having regard to the fact of the very heavy increase which will take place when the new collieries are fully developed, you will soon find that the four divisions would have an average of over 70,000. As to whether the granting of this concession would make any difference in the balance between the agricultural parts of the counties and the towns, I do not think it amounts to anything, because, as a matter of fact, almost all these boroughs, are very largely agricultural. At any rate, they are so far agricultural that the agricultural interest has a very considerable say in most of them. Even in Wrexham it would have a very considerable say, though the coal industry would have the greatest say. Though in the mind of many of us the grouping of boroughs is not an ideal arrangement, in this case it would settle some grievances. It groups two sets of boroughs, and it gives four members, which they very nearly deserve, instead of the five they previously had. At the same time it gets rid of what is felt as a grievance in Wales, that Wales is losing one or two members, and is being somewhat hardly treated compared with England. For that reason, although I entirely agree with the Home Secretary in standing firm against any attempts to-increase the number of representatives, I do ask that he should grant the concession in this case. If you do not give way you will find that in a very short time the county division will become very unwieldy. If you take the boroughs out and group them as one division, you will be making things more manageable from every point of view.
My hon. Friend (Sir H. Roberts) rather misunderstood the argument which I used in regard to London. What I said was that if we give way to London, and treated London as one county or borough, we must also give way to Wales, and treat Wales as one county or borough. But we did not give way to London, and for that same reason we are not bound to give way to Wales. The proposal is to add one member to those recommended by the Boundary Commissioners, and to divide the constituencies of Denbighshire and Flintshire, which are to return three members, into four divisions. Each of those divisions would have a population of under 70,000, so that you would be doubly departing from the rule of the Boundary Commissioners which has been followed by this House. Therefore, I am afraid that I ought to be still hardhearted and to say that this is not an Amendment that I could recommend the Committee to accept. Apart from that, I think the proposal now before the Committee is open to special objection. The proposal is to group a certain number of boroughs. There are a great many of them—twelve. They lie at considerable distances one from the other. They are very scattered, some being twenty or thirty miles apart, and these boroughs have, I am told, not much in common, or at all events the pursuits in the different towns are not the same. In some districes it is industrial; in others it is agricultural. There is no common occupation which really unites them. More than that, there is this difficulty, that the borough of Wrexham, a very important borough, is strongly opposed to the proposal. I have received a letter from the town council of of Wrexham in which they state their strong opposition to the proposal. I will only read one sentence:
"The town council submit that it would be absurd to form into a constituency with the borough of Wrexham,
I beg to move, after the paragraph dealing with Ayr District of Burghs, to insert,
Border District of Burghs Burghs of Dumfries, Maxwelltown, Annan, Hawick, Galashiels and Selkirk One — —
I intend, if allowed to do so, to draw attention not so much to the particular Amendment on the Paper as to deal with the representation of the whole of the South of Scotland. May I ask whether on this Amendment I, and other Members who may desire to speak, may say in general terms what we consider to be the under-representation of the whole of the South of Scotland?
If the decision on this Amendment be regarded as closing the subject, I should think that that would be a convenient course for the Committee.
At present in the South of Scotland there are nine constituencies, Dumfriesshire, Dumfries Burghs, Wigtonshire, Kircudbrightshire, Peebles and Selkirk, Roxburghshire, Berwickshire, Haddingtonshire, and Hawick Burghs, all of which have very great sentiment and history attaching to them. The particular group of burghs that I represent has existed since the Union in 1707, and their elections have been celebrated by the poet Burns in some of his very best ballads. No Scotsman can contemplate the extinction of a constituency like that without feeling very sad about it. But I am not going to base this matter on sentiment at all. I am going to put it on facts and figures. In the redistribution Peebleshire is joined on to South Midlothian, and the rest of the area is compressed into four constituencies, and
ten or a dozen towns and villages thirty or Forty miles apart, when the Wrexham rural district adjoins the borough and contains several parishes, each of which is more populous than any of the boroughs and villages with which the Amendment seeks to invite Wrexham borough to form a constituency."
In other words, they prefer the proposal of the Boundary Commissioners, which is to make Wrexham into a division with the Wrexham rural district. I am afraid I cannot advise the Committee to accept this Amendment.
Having regard to the statement of the Home Secretary, I do not propose to press this matter to a Division, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
the remaining five of us go no one knows where. It is a very ruthless massacre of the innocents. The four constituencies which are proposed now are Galloway, Dumfriesshire, Roxburghshire and Selkirkshire, and Berwickshire and Haddingtonshire. The total population is 224,000, and the average population per seat is 68,000. In the Instructions to the Commissioners they were specially allowed to make allowance in the formation of constituencies that might be inconvenient in size or character, and in other parts of the country this has been done. There were seven cases in which the Commissioners gave effect to this permission in Scotland, but none of these cases occurred in the south of Scotland. I can only think that the Commissioners were not aware of the facts. Perhaps they had not journeyed in these southern counties, because anyone who does know Galloway, Dumfriesshire, Roxburghshire, or even your own constituency (Peebles and Selkirk) knows that these are very large tracts of country, in many places very sparsely populated. They are akin to the Highlands, though they are not so large. They are exactly the sort of case in which these special circumstances should have been taken into account.
The seven cases in which this was done are in the northern Highlands, where there are to be five constituencies instead of seven, with a total population of 254,000 and an average of 50,000 each. That means that the northern Highlands. with a population of 20,000 less than the south of Scotland, have one member more. I do not grudge it to them in the least, because I think the special circumstances of the Highlands ought to be taken into account, and the Commissioners were quite right in making the generous allowance that they did. But there are other parts of the country where this allowance has been made. In Aberdeenshire, for instance, which has three seats, with an average population of 59,000, Forfarshire with a population of 47,000, and Moray with a population of 49,000. We who represent these southern constituencies also say that just on the other side of the border in England there is a county very akin to our counties in population and character, in favour of which this special exception has been made. Cumberland at present has five members and in future is to have five members. The total population, including the borough of Carlisle, is 265,000, as against the south of Scotland with 274,000. That means practically that with 10,000 less of a population Cumberland has one member more. This cannot be done because of the extent of the county. The total area of Cumberland is 1,520 square miles, whereas the area of the south of Scotland of which I am speaking is no less than 4,112 square miles, so we feel ourselves aggrieved compared with our nearest neighbour in England and compared with many of the other counties in Scotland.
In reference to the question of special circumstances, I would remind the Committee that there are two areas in Scotland which have increased and are increasing very largely in population, since the census was taken in 1914— Gretna and Rosyth. The Commissioners were specially charged to inform themselves about the growth of the population, and the likelihood of that increased population being permanent. In their Report they narrate what their Instructions were, and they say:
"We have satisfied ourselves that the probable increase in the permanent population is not sufficient to enable ns to add to the representation of the areas affected as now determined by us."
It is certainly true that in Dumfriesshire they did not add to the representation. They took no account of the increase of Gretna. They said specially that they would not mention the figures, and I feel myself debarred from mentioning the increased population of Gretna, but it is a very considerable one, and I think that anyone who has visited that wonderful
Then if one takes the case of Rosyth, they have also actually given effect to this recommendation, because Rosyth is part of the burgh of Dunfermline, and the Dunfermline Burghs are composed of Dunfermline, with Rosyth, Cowdenheath, Inverkeithing, and Lochgelly, a very compact group of burghs, which have a population of only 50,000. So it is not accurate to say that the Commissioners have not given effect to this. They have in two cases and in a third they have passed it by. I do not know whether it has been brought to the notice of the Committee that the Commissioners have not done in this case as they have in all other cases—had a local inquiry. In all that stretch of country there was not a single local inquiry. I think that I can understand why that was—that they thought it necessary to have local inquiries where a constituency was being broken up, but they did not think it necessary to have inquiries when they were amalgamating constituencies. At any rate, it so happened that there was no local Inquiry over the whole South of Scotland, and therefore no opportunity whatever for the local authorities, or the people interested in all that region, to suggest other plans, or to make a protest against the extinction of constituencies, and generally to have the matter dealt with. The only opportunity they had offered was that anyone interested could send in a statement to, I think it was, the English Local Government Board in Whitehall, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland knows very well that if you want Scottish people not to do things the best way is to ask them to write to an English Board sitting in London. Some protests were made, and some others were suggested, but no one ever had any opportunity of having the matter sifted and discussed in a thorough way.
The alternative scheme which I suggest, which would give these counties five members instead of four, is to leave Galloway as the scheme suggests, with the burgh of Maxwelltown taken out. I know that everybody in the old constituencies of Kirkcudbrightshire and Wigtonshire is delighted that the new constituency is to be called Galloway. They are very pleased with the name, which expresses an historic fact. Galloway less Maxwelltown would have a population of 60,000. Dumfriesshire, with Dumfries and Annan taken out, would have a population of 50,000, and if you add Gretna it would bring it very well over 60,000; and then I suggest in this Amendment the amalgamation of three of the existing Dumfries Burghs, Dumfries, Maxwelltown, and Annan, with the Hawick Burghs, Hawick, Galashiels, and Selkirk, to form a new border district of burghs. They have common interests. The leading industry in almost all of them is the tweed trade and the hosiery trade, and though they are not all in close proximity, yet, as the community of interest is so great, I do not think that that would be any great obstacle. The next constituency which I suggest is Berwickshire, Roxburghshire, and Selkirkshire. The scheme of the Commissioners suggest Berwickshire and Haddingtonshire, but there is that very difficult range of the Lammermuir Hills between these two, and I cannot find that either county is particularly anxious to be wedded to the other. On the other hand, Berwickshire and Roxburghshire are much more generally associated, and I would suggest Berwickshire and Roxburghshire and Selkirkshire, with of course the existing Hawick Burghs taken out. That would give a population of 60,000. Then the remaining fifth constituency is Haddingtonshire, with a population of 42,000. I admit that the weak part of the scheme is the small population of Haddington, but it is not appreciably smaller than that of some of the remaining counties of Scotland. I am not at all wedded to this scheme. There are a great many ways of working it out. This scheme has its drawbacks, as every human scheme has, but, at any rate, I think that I have made a case for the consideration of this matter, and I think it is a strong case, and that the South of Scotland is entitled not to four members, but to at least five.
6.0 P.M.
I am very anxious to associate myself with what has fallen from my right hon. Friend who has just sat down. We in the South of Scotland feel that the great interests which we represent have been rather badly treated, if I may say so, by the Commissioners. Allusion has constantly been made to the danger of over representation of urban districts and under representation of rural districts. I cannot imagine a better example than the one we have now in view. It is really a most striking example of under representation of interests which are a part of the real life of the country. It is exceedingly difficult to have every kind of interest in life represented in this House, but you may be quite certain that the best way is to give the smaller rural districts adequate representation. You talk about agriculture as being of increasing importance in this country. We all think it is. While agriculture is of vast importance, and is a predominant interest in this country, there is an enormous number of small places which depend upon the agricultural well-being of the neighbourhood, places where there are small tradespeople of every kind and who form a very important feature in our rural districts. My right hon. Friend has put forward an alternative scheme to that of the Government. In that scheme he has grouped the Roxburghshire and the Haddingtonshire areas. I do not want to say anything disrespectful of Haddington or of my hon. Friend representing Haddingtonshire, but I hope that such a mixture of lively jealousy will melt the hearts of my right hon. Friend opposite and other Members of the House. The population in my county is engaged in agriculture, while in Haddingtonshire there is a mining element.
The objections of Berwickshire to being joined with Haddingtonshire for Parliamentary purposes is, first, the difficulty of communication. There are only three roads which cross the Lammermoors, two of which are hill roads, and are blocked almost every winter, nor is the Great North Road always clear. The railway communication is also bad. Secondly, the population of Berwickshire is engaged in agriculture and farming. There is a large mining element in Haddington or East Lothian which is common to the Lothian districts, and which does not exist in Berwickshire. Thirdly, the two Bounties are not in the same sheriffdom, and have no local administration in a common centre. The range of the Lammermoors is an effectual natural barrier between them. At one time they had a common chief constable, but the arrangement was found to be so inconvenient that it was given up. The counties of Roxburghshire and Berwick interlace with ach other to such an extent that in the west of Berwickshire many roads pass in and out of the counties. The county populations of Roxburgh, Berwick, and Selkirk are all engaged in agriculture, and the communication between the three counties is easy both by road and rail. They form one sherriffdom, they are under one chief constable, and constables are, to a certain extent, interchangeable between the counties. Their Territorial Forces Associations work together as practically one association. There is little shifting of farm workers from Berwickshire to East Lothian or vice versâ . The reverse is the case between Roxburgh and Berwick. The local newspapers of Roxburgh and Berwick circulate in both counties. Nothing of the kind occurs between Berwick and East Lothian. I hope my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Scotland will see that the South of Scotland, under the scheme before the House, is badly represented, and that he will see his way to accept the suggestions which we have made. If he does do that, and even if he were to say that Lothian and Berwickshire would have to go together, I should regard that as a smaller disadvantage than the fact that we are cutting down nine constituencies into four.
I wish very briefly to support what has fallen from my right hon. Friends on this subject. This is the third appeal to this Committee this afternoon. The first was made on behalf of the city of York, and was based frankly on sentiment alone. The second was made on behalf of a group of boroughs in Wales, and was based on grounds of sentiment and population. This third appeal is still stronger, because it is based not only on grounds of sentiment and population, but also on the ground of area. These counties are rich in historical tradition and local patriotism; they carry a population of nearly 280,000; and they cover an area of over 4,000 square miles, much of it of the wildest type. The cumulative effect of this is to make the case we are putting before the Committee as hard as any that has been or can be brought before it. There is a further reason why I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give this appeal his favourable consideration. It is a case very difficult to present. We are dealing not with a single constituency about which we could propose an alteration which would stand clean cut by itself, but we are dealing with large areas in which it has been, very difficult for those locally interested in the matter to confer owing to their war pre-occupations. In these circumstances, it is very difficult for them to present a scheme on their own account, more especially as the Commissioners have given no opportunity for local opinion to be heard. Just because it has been so difficult for local opinion to voice itself in this matter, I venture to urge that the right hon. Gentleman is the more bounden to see that justice is done on the floor of this House.
As regards this Amendment, I stand where my two right hon. Friends stand. I recognise the difficulty of making any one scheme that is free from objection, and I quite freely admit that in my own Constituency they have had no opportunity of forming an opinion, but this I can say, that in two of the three burghs for which I have the honour to sit one has declared definitely in favour of amalgamation with the Dumfries Burghs, and the second in favour of the general principle of the preservation of grouped burghs. It is true that in the third of the three burghs a majority of one in the town council rejected a proposal to amalgamate with the Dumfries Burghs. I would, nevertheless, point out to my right hon. Friend (Mr. Munro) that this proposal for the amalgamation of the whole of the Dumfries Burghs include certain burghs far away out of Dumfriesshire, which made a geographical difficulty. On that account, therefore, it may be that the opinion of Galashiels might be modified, just as the scheme is modified. At any rate, that town council along with other public bodies which I represent, have definitely and unmistakably said that the South of Scotland is being unfairly treated by the present allocation of four members only. I really find it difficult to imagine how my right hon. Friend opposite can resist the justice of our appeal. I suppose his only ground will be the difficulty of rearranging the whole scheme if he allocated five members instead of four. After all, difficulties are things made to be got over and it is because of the difficulties in geographical and other arrangements that the gentlemen who served as Commissioners were appointed. If you look across the Border you see how happily difficulties there were overcome by good will and good intentions. The county of Cumberland was given four members; then, on the reconsideration of certain facts, five instead of four members were allowed. I, however, base this appeal on the broad ground that the South of Scotland as a whole is not being fairly treated, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman in all seriousness how he can justify this ignoring of the recommendations to the Commissioners made by this House in cases to which, it seems to me, the circumstances are peculiarly applicable. I hope strongly, and with a great deal of confidence, that the right hon. Gentleman will accept in principle what we are urging in this Amendment and will agree that the South of Scotland is entitled to one more member. Speaking for myself, I should be quite satisfied if he will accept the principle now, and will undertake either to consider between now and the Report stage this proposal, or bring forward some other proposal, in order to give effect to what we think this area is entitled, namely, at least five members in the new Parliament.
I concur very much in what I have heard from right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite. First of all, I complain, on behalf of Roxburgh bitterly, that there was no local inquiry there, so that the inhabitants thereof should have a chance, in this rather difficult problem, of explaining what they thought would be the best methods of redistribution. Then I lay great stress for many reasons on the reduction of the number of members for these counties from nine to four. It should be remembered that this region is the home of the clans, whose shields may be seen at Abbotsford— the home of those clans who resisted their hereditary foes on this side of the Border. But it would appear, in this case, that the enemies of these old clans have rather won, by getting a bigger representation on their side of the Border than we have on ours, in Scotland. The wholesale dismissal of members from, that classic land will make this House poorer in ability and in the conduct of affairs. The inhabitants have been distinguished in every sphere of human activity. In agriculture you will find some of the finest tillage that exists in the world, and the same as to the breeding of cattle, and we know of the manufactures, of the burghs. If we take the matter of sentiment, we have had in that district any number of poets known all over the world and familiar to the people at every riverside in those counties. If we had had a local inquiry we would have found a better means of distribution, or, at any rate, our energies and intellects would have been employed in finding some reasonable, proper, and just way of getting five members instead of four. I am not wedded to the particular scheme which the right hon. Gentleman has put forward, but we would have tried to make such arrangements as we possibly could. I would point out that the county of Berwick is connected with Roxburgh by rail and road. I have often spoken of the county of Berwick as a sort of appendage to the county of Roxburgh, and I would point out that there is a great deal of association between the two. The great industry of the whole community is agriculture in all its forms. I humbly press that the Bill as it stands should not be passed until we have had a full local inquiry or some reasonable means taken to ascertain what the county council, for instance, of Roxburgh think about this. I would ask the right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench to be very careful that they listen to the dictates of justice in this matter, and not to forget that the Instructions given to the Boundary Commissioners included a provision for such arrangements as the Scottish Members have been pressing upon the House to-day.
I do not in the least complain that this Motion has been utilised for the purpose of a discussion regarding the representation of the South of Scotland generally. But while that is so, what I have to consider is the effect of the. Amendment which I am asked to accept. The effect of the Amendment would be to increase the representation of Scotland by an additional member. The precedents are certainly ominous. In the discussions on the Bill requests of this sort have been made on behalf of the City of London and the city of York, and Wales, and in each case my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has proved adamantine to the views which were expressed and the arguments put forward in support of each of those proposals. My hon. and right hon. Friends from Scotland must not suppose that they are any more anxious than I am that Scotland should have the fullest representation which she can obtain under the circumstances as they exist to-day. But duty and inclination are very often difficult to reconcile. While, I too may experience a certain emotional regret, to use a phrase of the Home Secretary, nevertheless I say frankly, at the outset, I should feel the very greatest difficulty in accepting this Amendment. In fact, having considered it with every desire to meet any just claim which can be put forward, I confess myself wholly unable to accept it. One must, after all, remember that the Commissioners had certain Instructions given to them, and while I am quite aware of the relaxations referred to, nevertheless I need hardly point out that if you begin to add new members to those proposed by the Commissioners, you will not only raise an important issue in the particular case in which you do that, but you also establish a principle which can be cited in many other constituencies and may prove to be a very awkward precedent. You would open the floodgates on the Report stage of this Bill, a process which I am anxious to avoid. I think I may say, before I deal with the arguments put forward as to Scotland, that, as far as I can judge— and I do not think my hon. and right hon. Friends will differ from me in this—looking at this scheme as a whole, Scotland has been just as well treated as England has been by the Commissioners.
We had no inquiry.
That is quite a separate point. I am merely making a general observation. I am confirmed in that view when I find that notwithstanding the very large changes which the Commissioners propose to make in Scottish representation, there are less than two pages of Amendments on the Paper put down by my Scottish colleagues, and I think I am right in saying that there are not more than about a dozen substantive Amendments dealing with any of the proposals made by the Commissioners with regard to Scotland. Some of those relate to nomenclature, while others are consequential. I think it is a great tribute to the fairness and skill with which they have performed their duty that their proposals should have met with so much acceptance as the state of the Order Paper betokens.
The first point, and one of the main points, made in support of the Amendment was that the proposals of the Commissioners had been conceived and arranged without inquiry. In a sense that is true, if by no inquiry my hon. Friends mean that there was no local inquiry held in the district. That is perfectly true; but the Commissioners were bound by their Instructions to amalgamate those constituencies which have been amalgamated, and to hold a local inquiry would be to raise entirely false hopes which could not be justified by any evidence which might be tendered at that inquiry. But, apart altogether from that, though there was no local inquiry, nevertheless all persons having any interest to oppose the scheme proposed by the Commissioners were fully apprised by advertisements in all the local papers of what the schemes were, and to what quarter they ought to direct representations against those schemes. I am not at all satisfied that what my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire said, namely, that those representations were to be sent to the English Local Government Board, the headquarters of the Commissioners, would deter a single person or a single body from making representations which were invited. All I do know is that the response made to the invitation which was tendered by advertisement was a very wide and generous one. And I may add that it is within my knowledge that those representations were fully and carefully considered, first by each of the Commissioners individually and subsequently by the Commissioners collectively, and, after careful consideration of all the competing schemes and all the objections to the schemes which were proposed, the Commissioners reached the conclusion that they were unable to depart from the schemes which they had propounded.
May I mention one point? I think the right hon. Gentleman will remember that a very, very short time was given for any representations to be made. My recollection is four or five days. It came in the holiday season at the end of July, and there was really no time for the public bodies in the different parts to have a conference together.
There may have been some difficulty about that. I am not fully informed of the circumstances, but speaking off-hand—
The county councils had to meet in order to ascertain what their views were, and in the case of the two counties I have mentioned, East Lothian and Berwickshire, each of those bodies passed a unanimous resolution against being married to the other.
I have no doubt at all if those recommendations were made, and if they were late because local circumstances prevented them from being sent earlier, that they would be considered and were considered by the Commissioners. I have not been able to consult them on this particular point, but I find it difficult to believe if the case were made out as to the difficulty of convening a meeting of the county council and sending the representation in the stipulated time that it would be rejected or would not be fully considered because it was somewhat late. I know, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dumfriesshire will agree with me, that he himself has had numerous interviews with one of the Commissioners, who I think I may say has very fully and carefully and courteously gone into every representation made. He has also been in correspondence with the Commissioners on quite a number of these points.
At their request.
It really does not much matter for the purposes of my argument. I do not think a merely local inquiry would alter the situation from the situation in which we find ourselves to-day, for every representation which was made, and, as I am told, they were numerous, was very carefully considered in the manner I have described.
Is there any proof at all that they considered the question of area as opposed to population?
Oh, certainly! The question of area was considered as well as the question of population. I happen to know that my hon. Friend who has just intervened sent a representation to the Commissioners on the subject of Sutherland, which was considered by them in the same individual and collective way that I have described. Therefore it is really—
May I say at once now that though I sent forward the statement referred to, I have, had no reply to it beyond the acknowledgment of the receipt of it?
Well I think, if I may say so, that it may have been highly inexpedient to send a reply to the hon. Member. But the result the Commissioners have made known without undue delay. I merely want now to say that it is hardly fair to the Commissioners to suggest that they disposed of a single case without the most ample information before them entitling them to come to the conclusion to which they did come. We may not agree — my hon. Friends opposite may not agree — with the conclusions at which they arrived, but they may rest assured a conclusion was not arrived at till after full consideration of every relevant circumstance. With regard to the particular scheme which my right hon. Friend proposes in his Amendment, I noticed with some interest that nearly every speaker declared that he was not wedded to this scheme at all, and saw great difficulties about it. They suggested that the principle might be accepted, and some other scheme as yet undefined adopted.
Not necessarily!
I am not prepared to deal with a proposal to that effect. The Commissioners have propounded a scheme and there is only one alternative scheme of which I know to be considered, and that is the scheme put down by way of Amendment. To that scheme there are certain objections, which I am bound to state. One objection is that the constituency which my right hon. Friend proposes to establish would unquestionably be inconvenient in character and area. Those familiar with the district know quite well that there is no direct communication whatever between Dumfries and Hawick. There is a distance, as the crow flies, of fifty miles, and in my humble judgment it would be an extremely scattered constituency if you constituted the area a constituency on the lines suggested by my right hon. Friend. I do say then that in the first place —[An HON. MEMBEE: "What about Ayr Burghs?"]— the constituency it is proposed to establish would be a scattered one. Without pressing that point unduly, however, I would remind my hon. Friends of this: In grouping border burghs the town council of Galashiels would not assent to this or any similar scheme— according to my information. My hon. Friend suggested that they might. My information is that they protested most vigorously against this scheme, and would not have anything to do with it. If that be so, the whole edifice of this particular scheme collapses. There may be another competing scheme of which I do not know. If any further scheme is proposed I may possibly hear of it, but up to now I have not heard of it.
The official scheme was passed by the town council of Galashiels by a narrow majority. The proposed amended scheme of my right hon. Friend was never before them.
That might quite well be, but that does not alter the point I am making— that is, that the burgh of Galashiels has elected to go into the county. It does not want to be grouped. That is my information. If my hon. Friend tells me I am wrong in regard to Galashiels, I will, of course accept his correction. But if my information be correct, it means that this scheme will not do; and if this scheme will not do, there is no other that I know of, and that in itself is sufficient not only to entitle but to compel me to reject the Amendment that my right hon. Friend has proposed.
The Committee will now expect me to say a word or two on the wider issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries. He said the South of Scotland had not been treated so well as the North of Scotland. May I remind my hon. Friend that the Commissioners had no right, under their Instructions, to deal with the South as a whole or with the North as a whole. Their Instructions compelled them to deal with the several counties and burghs in the South and in the North. In short, North and the South were not entities which the Commissioners had any right, under the Instructions upon which they acted, to consider. They had to deal, as I have said, with the counties and the burghs. They had to deal with these specifically and separately, and these separately have no grievances. In other words, North and South really, from this point of view, and from the point of view of the Instructions to the Commissioners, are meaningless terms. The Commissioners, in my humble judgment, faithfully carried out their Instructions. If a comparison is drawn between the North and the South, let us consider for a moment low widely different the circumstances are in these two parts of Scotland. How impossible it is, and how illogical, if I may say so, to reason by analogy between these two parts. Take the question of area. A good deal has been said about area. The area of these southern countries with which we are concerned is only 658,611 acres. The area of the northern counties, between which and these other counties an analogy is sought to be drawn, is 1,400,451 acres. I have only to state that in order to vitiate any comparison or analogy sought to be drawn between the two. Or, to put it in another way, in the North there are four persons to every hundred acres, while in the Southern counties there are ten persons, or thereabouts, to every hundred acres. Accordingly, when you consider further that the means of communication in the South of Scotland are infinitely better than the means of communication, let us say between long stretches of land in Inverness-shire and Ross-shire, then I think I have demonstrated how very far from the point is the suggested comparison. I say there is no comparison, in the sense suggested, to be drawn between the North and the South. From that point of view the Commissioners have followed their Instruction.
Take another point of view. The present population of these southern counties, with which we are dealing, is, per member, 35,000. That 35,000 is just half the number contemplated by the Instructions as being the population to return a separate member to the House of Commons. That number is 70,000. It is difficult in these circumstances to resist the conclusion that at present the South of Scotland is over-represented. I do not press that, but in view of the recommendations of the Conference, the present population of Scotland in the south is just about half what it ought to be in order to return the present number of members. Accordingly from that point of view also, I think, that my hon. Friends will see that the Commissioners have acted very fairly. In fact I find that the average population in the four constituencies proposed is 68,666— that is to say, it is lower than the 70,000 which was prescribed in the Instructions under which the Commissioners acted. Accordingly, I think if the Committee considers those figures and considers the present population per member, they will see the Commissioners have actually reduced the number of people who shall be entitled to a member by more than 1,000. I think they have taken a lenient rather than a severe view of the situation.
They have cut them down four.
If 35,000 people, as a unit, each returns eight members, does it not follow that if the unit is 70,000 then, according to the Instructions, the other four members should be cut down? Really, I cannot see that that argument carries with it any force. My right hon. Friend referred to Cumberland. That is not a fair comparison. Is it a fair or logical thing to compare one county in the North of England with a group of counties in the South of Scotland? It is really quite impossible, if the Commissioners followed their Instructions, to secure that everywhere the population for returning a member should be precisely the same. I quite agree that you may find a contrast between the county of Cumberland and the group now proposed to be formed in the south of Scotland, but I put it to the Committee, and I really do put it to my right hon. Friend, that the analogy is not a reasonable one. Rosyth and Gretna have been referred to. I gave an undertaking in regard to these. That undertaking has been respected by the Commissioners. I find nothing in their report to suggest that it has not been respected. On the contrary, I think they say that they have given full effect to the undertaking I gave. My right hon. Friend has said that he would not go into figures. I cannot go into figures. If I could I think I would be able to convince him and the Committee that the Commissioners have acted properly in this matter. All I can say is that the undertaking given has been respected and that no ground of complaint on that score remains. I have endeavoured to deal with all the points put forward. I am quite sure that I have not satisfied my hon. Friends.
Hear, hear!
I suffer from no illusion whatever in that matter. I have great sympathy— I have said so already— with the point of view which they urge. On the other hand, I have a duty to perform. Duty is not always a pleasant thing. In this connection I have no doubt whatever as to what my duty is, and in the performance of it I regret very much that I cannot accept the Amendment.
I confess I am sorry to hear what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman. I am inclined to differ from him, though I admire and appreciate his kindness of heart and his public utterances. I cannot help calling the attention of the House to one point that I think has been a little overlooked. We are considering how one of the kingdoms of the United Kingdom is to be represented on the floor of the House of Commons, and the matter affects every man in that kingdom— and every woman, too. I am afraid the House suffers the disadvantage of not knowing very much about Scotland; but anyone who has much to do with that country knows the enormous value which everyone in Scotland places upon his political privileges. Others can scarcely appreciate the importance of the problem with which Scotland has to deal. Anybody who has had considerable acquaintance with Scotland knows that you do not come across a Scotsman in any part who has had the advantage of a Scottish education but is thoroughly familiar with the political questions of the day, and knows a great deal about Scottish literature and the literature of this country. It is a mistake, therefore, to think that the representation of Scotland in this House is of no value and may be dismissed in a moment. Assuming the Commissioners have made mistakes— and they have made mistakes in the scheme of redistribution they have recommended to the House of Commons— all we ask is that such cases should be reconsidered. It is a very simple request and a very small thing that Scotland is asking. It would be a great pity, if mistakes are made, should the Government not undertake that there should be further inquiry by the Commissioners. I am reminded of the saying of a big man who was in this House hundreds of years ago, "I pray you remember, you may be mistaken." I am afraid the Commissioners may have been mistaken in their Report, and I think we may fairly ask the Government to pay careful attention not only to cases that have been brought before the House, but which will be brought before the House, and to grant a further inquiry by the Commissioners, and so bring about a position satisfactory to the most educated section of the British Isles, namely, Scotland.
Amendment negatived.
Edinburgh … County of the City of Edinburgh and Burgh of Musselburgh Five Central … George Square, St. Giles' and St. Leonard's Municipal Wards of Edinburgh. East. … Burgh of Musselburgh and Canongate and Portobello Municipal Wards of Edinburgh. North … Broughton, Calton, St. Andrews and St. Stephen's Municipal Wards of Edinburgh. South … Merchiston, Morningside and Newington Municipal Wards of Edinburgh. West … Dalry, Gorgie, Haymarket and St. Bernard's Municipal Wards of Edinburgh.
The following Amendments stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. CURRIE: In column 4, after the word "Central," insert the words "or Castle"; after the word "East," insert the words "or Holyrood"; after the word "North," insert the words "or Broughton"; after the word "South," insert the words "or Merchiston"; after the word "West," insert the words "or Saint Cuthbert's."
PART. I.—PARLIAMENTARY BOROUGHS. (4) BOROUGHS IN SCOTLAND. Glasgow … — — Central … That portion of the City which is bounded by a line commencing at a point at the intersection of the centre lines of Parliamentary Road and Castle Street, thence southward along the centre line of Castle Street to the centre line of Alexandra Parade, thence eastward along the centre line of Alexandra Parade to the centre line of Firpark Street thence southward along the centre line of Firpark Street and Ark Lane to the centre line of Duke Street, thence westward along the centre line of Duke Street to the centre line of Sydney Street, thence southward along the centre line of Sydney Street to the centre line of Gallowgate, thence westward along the centre line of Gallowgate to the centre line of Saltmarket, thence southward along the centre line of Saltrnarket and Albert Bridge to the centre line of the River Clyde, thence westwardalong the centre line of the River Clyde to a point in line with the centre line of McAlpine Street, thence northward along the centre line of McAlpine Street, Pitt Street and Scott Street to the centre line of New City Road, thence southeastward along the centre line of New City Road and Cowcaddens to the centre line of Buchanan Street, thence southward along the centre line of Buchanan Street to the centre line of Parliamentary Road, thence north-eastward along the centre line of Parliamentary Road to the point of commencement.
My right hon. Friend opposite has shown that he is not unamenable to sentiment, and I think he has sympathy with one or two of my Amendments, but, as I understand there is some opposition to my suggestions, I do not propose to take up the time of this Committee by moving the Amendments.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the word "Central," and to insert instead thereof the words "St. Mungo."
My Amendment is by no means of the importance of that which was proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dumfries Burghs (Mr. Gulland), because it does not deal in any way with boundaries or increased representation, but simply with nomenclature. That is, perhaps, an advantage in that I may not find the Secretary for Scotland adamantine, but, on the other hand, flexible. I regret that I have not had an opportunity of consulting with the hon. Gentleman who represents the Central Division of Glasgow before I put this Amendment on the Paper. I received it only on Monday from those who are responsible for it. I therefore apologise for interfering with his constituency without consulting him. My Amendment is to substitute for the description of his constituency the name of the St. Mungo Division of Glasgow, and I do so for this reason: The other constituencies of that city under their new nomenclature are all called after historical personages, or historical places, and the only exception to that is the Central Division of Glasgow, the name of which I desire to have altered to St. Mungo. I think the House ought, as far as possible, to abandon the description of cities as North, South, East, and West as being merely geographical and uninteresting, if for no other reason than that the House never grasps the exact geographical description of any Member of this House. All old lovers of Glasgow desire that this name of St. Mungo should be substituted. St. Mungo was the founder of the city of Glasgow and has become the patron saint. I think it well, therefore, that his name should be perpetuated.
Is that the only saint?
There was one in Sutherland. My hon. Friend the Member for Govan, who is an authority on ancient ballads, when he saw this Amendment on the Paper, said there was a verse of an ancient ballad which described St. Mungo. I think I had better read it:
"Sanct Mungo was a jolly sanct,
And dearly loo'd gude yill,
And aft he stained his vestments white
Wi' dribblins o' the still."
[HON. MEMBERS: "Translate!"] Of course, some hon. Members may not under- stand that language, but I think the saintly gentleman so described should have his name perpetuated, and I hope my right hon. Friend will consider it. He has certainly had very short notice, but it may be he will consider it between now and the Report stage, and communicate with bodies in Glasgow interested in it, and then perhaps he will concede it.
As a Welshman who resided some years in the Central Division of Glasgow, I have very much pleasure in seconding this Amendment, because St. Mungo, whose other name was St. Kentigern, carried Christianity from Wales to Glasgow.
I think some protest must be made against this extraordinary revelation. It is well known that St. Mungo was a Scotsman born in Scotland and trained in Scotland, and that he pursued his first evangelical missions in Scotland. It was only when he was seeking for new kingdoms to conquer that he went and settled in Wales, and partially succeeded in Christianising Wales. I agree with the result to which my hon. Friend came, namely, that this is a desirable Amendment to urge, but I differ altogether from the argument which he adopted.
I sincerely trust that the Secretary for Scotland will accept this Amendment. I know Glasgow very well, and I am sure it will be acceptable. My hon. Friend must have forgotten that St. Mungo was born in Scotland, and I think it was in the East of Scotland. He was baptised in Culross, and afterwards moved over to the West, starting his mission there. Then he moved into Wales and founded the cathedral of St. Asaph. No one has told the House yet what is the meaning of the word "Mungo." It was given to him, I think, by the priest who christened him, and it literally means, I believe, "dear child," I sincerely trust my right hon. Friend will accept this Amendment, because I believe it will be very acceptable to the people of Glasgow.
7.0 P.M.
I do not propose to go into the history of St. Mungo. When the hon. Member opposite began to dilate on the subject I thought it was possible we might learn that some persons were of opinion that he was born within the limits of what is known now as the Central Division of Glasgow. Wherever he was born, and whatever his work, there is no doubt he was looked upon as the patron saint of Glasgow, and I congratulate the hon. Member for the College Division upon being among the saints to-day. I have not had any communication from any of the authorities in Glasgow to say whether they prefer "Central" or "St. Mungo," but it seems to me to be a matter for the consideration of the authorities in Glasgow. I myself would certainly be guided by their opinion. The short time the notice has been in the papers has not enabled me to communicate with them in any way, and there has been no time to ascertain their opinion. I think my hon. and learned Friend took the right course when he asked the Secretary for Scotland not necessarily to accept this Amendment, but communicate with the authorities at Glasgow, and, if they desire the name of St. Mungo to be given to this division, it might be put in upon the Report stage.
I congratulate my hon. Friend upon initiating a discussion into which so much history and mythology have been introduced. With regard to the Amendment, I feel just the same difficulty as has been suggested by my hon. Friend opposite. The position of matters is that one of the existing divisions of Glasgow is called the Central Division. After the redivision of the wards of Glasgow by the Boundary Commissioners they decided to call one of the new divisions, which includes the greater part of the old Central Division, by the same name, and they adopted that course on the suggestion of the Corporation of Glasgow. Now the position I find myself in is that while the suggestion of my hon. and learned Friend is an attractive one, nevertheless I have no evidence that the Glasgow authorities desire its adoption. All I can say is that I shall consider this matter between now and the Report stage, and if I obtain satisfactory evidence that my hon. and learned Friend is speaking for the authorities of Glasgow I shall consider the matter on Report in a sympathetic way.
I beg to move, after the paragraph dealing with Greenock, to insert,
Inverness District of Burghs Burghs of Inverness, Nairn, Forres and Fortrose One — —
I move this Amendment in order to call the attention of the Secretary for Scotland to what I think is a blemish in the redistribution proposals for Scotland. These three groups of burghs have existed since the time of the union, and now they are to disappear at one fell swoop. Under the terms of the Speaker's Conference we understood that it would be quite impossible to maintain these constituencies as they exist at this moment, but I was in hopes that some method would be found by the Commissioners of providing at all events for some urban representations for the north of Scotland. As it is, if the proposals of the Schedule are carried out, there will be no burgh representation at all between Aberdeen and Dumbarton.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I have here a manuscript Amendment handed in by the hon. Member for Inverness Burghs (Mr. Bryce), but I think it was understood that the discussion we had on the Amendment dealing with the Border Burghs was going to cover all these cases.
I do not think that was understood at all. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gulland) dealt with the south of Scotland.
I understood that that would cover all the cases.
I was here the whole of the time, and I had not the slightest idea that it meant that.
You might draw a line south-west from Aberdeen, and the first burgh it would strike would be Dumbarton, and so that enormous extent of Scotland in the northwest and west will be without any burgh representation at all. The right hon. Gentleman knows that, although it cannot be said that the character of these constituencies differ so greatly as they do in any other parts of the country from the character of the counties, still there is a very distinct difference of interest. The burghs I represent are very distinct between the burgh and county constituency, and in the case of the burgh of Inverness that difference of character is likely to be accentuated in the future, because since the War began Inverness has become a much more industrial centre, and its industries have been very much extended. The people have found themselves, more or less, and in the future the industrial activities of Inverness will be found to grow very greatly. In the form in which this particular Amendment stands I am afraid it is not likely to be accepted, because it represents a population of 35,000 as against 40,000, 50,000, and 70,000 in other places. I do not think the Government is likely to accept this proposal, but perhaps a method could be found of combining some of the existing groups with the Inverness burgh. I hope my right hon. Friend will try and do that. I do not want to enter into the general question of the under-representation of the North of Scotland as a whole, because that subject will be discussed on an Amendment which is going to be moved later. I would call attention to this fact, of which my own Constituency takes great interest, that the representation of what I may call the crofter interest will be immensely diminished by this Bill, which proposes to reduce by three members the representation of the North of Scotland.
My hon. Friend is not likely to find me lacking in personal sympathy with any hon. Member representing a northern group of burghs which is in course of disappearing. I am in the same position, for both he and I will lose our constituencies by this proposal. Personally, then, I sympathise with the condition in which my hon. Friend finds himself, but the arguments he has adduced tend to
Montrose District of Burghs Burghs of Montrose, Arbroath, Brechm, Forfar, Inverbervie and Kirriemuir One — —
I beg to move, in column, I to leave out the word "Montrose," and to insert instead thereof the word "Angus."
I am in a position which would melt a heart of stone. My Constituency is divided against itself in respect of two burghs, and whatever action I take I am bound to offend a large part of it. I represent the burghs of Arbroath. Brechin, Forfar, and
illustrate the difficulties in which I find myself. My hon. Friend speaks about the under-representation of the North of Scotland. I tremble to think what my right hon Friend opposite would say if I suggested that the North of Scotland should receive a new member. That subject will more appropriately arise however on a later Amendment. Every possible method of combining burghs in the North of Scotland that could be conceived has been considered, and it has been found impossible to arrange any group in a satisfactory fashion. I can hold out no hope, even on the Report stage, that there will be any alteration in this matter. My hon. Friend has shown quite clearly, by his own speech that it is quite impossible for me to accept this Amendment. He proposes that his own Constituency should continue. It has a population of 30,000, and it is manifestly impossible for me, in those circumstances, to accede to his proposal. While I have every sympathy with my hon. Friend and with the views which he propounds, officially I have no alternative but to refuse to accept the Amendment.
I did not think my right hon. Friend would accept this Amendment. I only wanted him to consider the really important point of the urban representation of the North of Scotland. Many of the burghs concerned have been much annoyed at the disappearance of their representation, and the four burghs I represent have all petitioned this House and the House of Lords against this scheme. I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment by leave, withdrawn.
Montrose. These are in Forfarshire or Angus and one, Inverbervie or Bervie, in Kincardineshire or the Mearus. To these it is proposed to add Kirriemuir, another burgh in Forfarshire or Angus, but the addition of this burgh has no bearing on the present Amendment. For the purposes of this Amendment the Committee may take it that we are dealing in effect with an existing constituency and not with a creation under this Bill.
The constituency, as it stands to-day, is the creation of the Reform Act of 1832. It was christened the "Montrose District of Burghs" then, and it has retained that title until the present day. What, then, is all the trouble about? The Amendment will have the effect of changing the name to the "Angus District of Burghs." This change is promoted by the Burgh of Arbroath, which is undoubtedly the largest burgh, being roughly, twice the size of any other. The Provost of that burgh argued the case before the Sub-Commissioner at the local inquiry, but as they did not succeed on that occasion, they now press me with great vigour to make their case heard in the House of Commons. I have consented on the strict understanding that 1 cannot, from the nature of the case, be an advocate in the matter, and that I should very briefly summarise the arguments of both sides. I will therefore read an extract from a letter dated 19th October, which I have received from the Provost of Arbroath. He says:
"As regards the question of the name of the new constituency, I may point out to you that the population of Montrose (which at present gives its name to the constituency) is only third in the group and that it is understood to be decreasing. Out of a population of 50,000 in the new group, the population of Montrose is only 10,002. It is not proposed by the magistrates of this Burgh that the group should be called the 'Angus Burghs,' though that would be a more suitable name than the 'Montrose Burghs,' which has only the recommendation of having been created by the Reform Bill of 132 and has nothing else in its favour. In the opinion of myself and the other magistrates of the Burgh, the name of 'Angus Burghs,' which has the support of Forfar, the second largest Burgh—"
Here I leave out a few irrelevant words, irrelevant only to the particular Amendment I am now moving:
"would, as a matter of fact, be a much more accurate description of the new group than to retain the present misleading name of 'Montrose Burghs.'"
The town council has supported these arguments in a resolution which reached me this morning. He is correct in saying that he has the support of Forfar, whose town council has passed a resolution. The town council of Bervie, which is the only burgh not in Angus, also approves of the name of the "Angus Burghs," and as the population of these three burghs is some 30,000 out of a total of 48,000 I should obviously have been accused of partiality on the other side if I had refused to put down this Amendment. I am also asked to point out that there is in the Town Hall of Montrose a portrait of Joseph Hume, who in 1818 was elected for what was called the Aberdeen district, and that this
I do not think the hon. Member is entitled to come here and move an Amendment which he is not proposing to support. I understood him to say that this was the case of some Provost or other and not his own. It is very doubtful.
May I press you on the point of Order? I have been absent from the House for some three years, but I have listened to the speeches of other hon. Members, and they have frequently used the phrase, "I have been instructed." If you rule from the Chair that I am not entitled to move an Amendment unless it either represents my own personal view, which from the nature of the case cannot be, or the unanimous opinion then I am precluded from moving this Amendment.
At the moment I was only putting in a caveat. Hon. Members are supposed here to speak opinions of their own.
I am entirely in your hands and in the hands of the Committee, but, having been allowed to proceed so far, I am afraid it will be considered unfair if I am not able to state the other side.
Have we not had a precedent already to-night? The Secretary for Scotland told us that he did not propose to decide a matter in accordance with his views, but he proposed to ascertain the views of the Corporation of Glasgow. This is a matter upon which we do very earnestly desire, as a House, to ascertain what are the views of the various localities with which we are making free in this Bill, and from that point of view it might be desirable to ascertain the different and even conflicting opinions and have them submitted.
:I think that is quite sound. I understood the Secretary for Scotland to say that he was going to inquire whether Glasgow was unanimously agreed upon a name or not. I will allow the hon. Member to proceed.
Montrose, the burgh which at present gives its name to the constituency, is not only an opponent of the Amendment, but the town council hold the strongest possible view against it. They upbraid me for putting it down, and they urge me to withdraw it. Their case, stated without heat and comment, is as follows: In the first place, the only official name of the constituency is the "Montrose District." It was created the Montrose Burghs by the great Reform Act, and no other Act has altered it. Secondly, the Commissioners have been unconvinced by the arguments of the other side. Thirdly, the term "Angus Burghs" is not geographically accurate, because the constituency goes outside Angus and does not include certain burghs which are in Angus, such as Monifieth and Carnoustie. The Town Council of Brechin support Montrose in the following terms:
"The town council are unanimously of opinion that no change should be made. The name Montrose has long been associated with the constituency, and to change to Angus ignores Bervie."
If you take the town council as representative, as you must, you therefore have some 30,000 out of 48,000 in favour of the change and some 17,800 resolutely opposed to it. I would make an ad misericordiam appeal to the Secretary for Scotland, who I think will appreciate the difficulty of the position. I think I may fairly ask, whatever their decision may be, whether it is given now or on the Report stage, that they shall clearly state that they have carefully judged the justice of the respective claims, so that no party may fail to feel that they have received the most searching and ample consideration, and mainly for that purpose, but not exclusively, I move the Amendment.
I feel I must congratulate my hon. Friend upon the great skill with which he has discharged an extremely difficult task and also upon the judicial manner in which he has carried it out. He has presented the case more as a judge summing it up before a jury than as a counsel advocating one particular side. The burghs with which my hon. Friend is concerned received the name of the "Montrose District of Burghs" as far back as 1832, at the time of the passing of the Reform Bill. They have since continued to be known by that name, and, if the Commissioners' proposal receives effect, they will continue in future to be known by that name. I would point out to the Committee and to my hon. Friend that the district during all that time has included the two towns in which he is interested, Montrose and Arbroath, but nevertheless it has taken its name from Montrose and not from Arbroath. I may add for his information—perhaps he knows it already—that even in 1831 Arbroath was a more populous town than Montrose. One objection to adopting the proposal which he has made is that the name of "Angus Burghs" will be inappropriate for the reason which he indicated in his speech, namely, that Inverbervie, one of the towns comprised in this new constituency, is not in Angus but in Kincardineshire. The description, therefore, would be inaccurate. For these reasons, the Commissioners, after Very ample and I think I may say searching consideration, to use my hon. Friend's own phrase, came to the conclusion that the name of "Montrose District and Burghs" should continue in the future as in the past, and I suggest that the determination of the Commissioners should be affirmed. I do not know whether that result will annoy or please my hon. and gallant Friend.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in column 2, after the word "Forfar," to insert the word "and."
I do not know whether you rule out my further Amendments.
I thought that they were all consequential.
No. I am not sure whether I should be entitled to move the second, the intention of which is to raise the question of which should be the returning burgh.
There is nothing in the Schedule to affect that question. The order in which they are taken does not affect the question.
The object of my Amendment is to secure that the borough of Kirriemuir, better known as "Thrums" and the birthplace of Sir James Barrie, should remain, as it has always hitherto been, within the constituency of the county of Forfar instead of being transferred, as is proposed, to the Montrose Burghs. I am in this fortunate position, which distinguishes this Amendment from all the others which I have heard discussed, that the retention of Kirriemuir in the county would not in any way affect the general scheme of the Bill. It is quite accepted by the Commissioners and by the Government that the county of Forfar should continue to have their representative and that the Montrose Burghs should also continue to have their representative. Everybody locally is agreed that Kirriemuir should remain in the county. I have a joint memorial, signed by the respective chairmen of the Unionist Association for the county and of the Liberal Association for the county and presented to the Sub-Commissioner at his inquiry, setting forth the various reasons for which it is desirable, apart altogether from any question of political colour, that this community should remain a part of the county. I have also a memorial, which likewise was submitted to the Sub-Commissioner at his inquiry, from the Unionist Association for Montrose, the Liberal Association for Montrose and the Labour organisation in Montrose Burghs asking that the Montrose Burghs should remain as they are. It is right to say that at that time it was proposed to add a number of other burghs to the Montrose Burghs in addition to Kirriemuir. All the three parties in the borough were desirous that Kirriemuir should remain in the county.
I do not want to rest the case merely upon the figures, because it is more a question of what the House thinks it is right to do, but the result of transferring Kirriemuir from these burghs to the county would be to reduce the county below the 50,000 limit. According to the original Instructions given to the Boundary Commissioners, they would have been prohibited from carrying that out, because, although there was a certain latitude allowed with regard to additional boroughs, it was expressly decided that it should not be done where it would affect the representation of a county. When the amended Instruction was passed, allowing a certain latitude with regard to burghs and counties alike, if it had occurred to me or to anybody else that it was going to be used for the purpose of ruling out the main provision in the original Instruction, it would have been contested, because the House would have expected that it was not intended in any case to bring counties below the 50,000 limit for the purpose of adding to the burghs. The most important reason for this Amendment is that on which all parties are agreed, namely, that it is desirable that Kirriemuir should remain in the county. It is part of the management of the county. Kirriemuir spreads over the county. In the parish of Kirriemuir there are 5,000 people, the burgh itself having only 3,500, while 1,500 are in the rest of the parish. A considerable number of people who form part of the community of Kirriemuir are in the county, so that if you were to transfer the burgh to the Montrose Burghs the result would be that you would cut a small community in two. Apart from that, it is a small township, which lies in a position by itself not very far from the foot of the Grampians, serving a widely-scattered area of people and running up the glens of the Grampians some twenty to twenty-five miles. There is a large rural area round about. It is their centre for railway facilities, it is their centre for education, it is their centre for all postal and travelling facilities. To take Kirriemuir away from the county for political purposes, would be an act of mutilation, not only in. regard to Kirriemuir itself, because you would be dividing it into two, but with, regard to the whole of the district.
I do not desire to introduce any irrelevant matter, but it has always seemed tome that here you have the ideal system for the development of our countrysides in those parts which are far removed from railway facilities. You have an industrious, enterprising, well-educated people, fed from the country districts, making its mark—for they have men of distinction, not only in literature, but in almost every other walk of life—this being due to the fact that the country life is bound up with this little community. Everybody who knows Kirriemuir knows how keen they are and how thoroughly well-equipped for taking their part in the work of the world. They have a very keen interest in public affairs. If you take that small township out of the district of which it happens to be the capital, you are bound to destroy, to a large extent, the opportunities which surrounding districts have for expressing their interest in public affairs. In the county of Forfar you have a stretch of some 20 miles between the sea and the foot of the hills. You have only Carnoustie and Monifieth on the edge of the shore, and between those places and the hills you have no more people than you could gather in an ordinary schoolroom. It would be a great deprivation to the people to cut out Kirriemuir and add it to the burghs. I am hopeful that the right hon. Gentleman will say that where there is such a strong local feeling as there is undoubtedly in this little community, and also on the part f the county, and that where it does not interfere with his scheme, he will adopt the principle laid down more than once by the Home Secretary, that wherever he found the general scheme would not be interfered with, and where the people were agreed, he would be willing to agree also to changes of this nature. I am as anxious as anyone that this Bill should get on. So far as I know, there is no opposition to this proposal—at any rate, I have found none among Scottish Members. I beg the right hon. Gentleman to make an example of this particular case, and show that where a good case is made out he is sensitive to the wishes, feelings, and convenience of the local people.
I have left the initiative in this matter entirely to my hon. Friend (Mr. Falconer), who is primarily concerned. As far as I have been able to ascertain, the burghs which I represent, and which would be added to under the scheme of the Government, have no very strong views on the matter. They had very strong views on the original scheme, submitted by the Commissioners, to which both sides made strong objections, which were recognised as just by the Commissioners. The present scheme is a decided
Stirling and Falkirk District of Burghs Burghs of Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemough One — —
( who had given notice of an Amendment in Column 1 to leave out the words "Stirling and Falkirk" and to insert instead thereof the words "Falkirk and Stirling" ): I propose to lay my cards on the Table, and, without entering into any argument, to disclose the motive I had in putting down this proposal and to address a question to the Secretary for Scotland. My motive was to secure that of the two burghs of Stirling and Falkirk, Falkirk should be the returning burgh. As some doubt has been expressed on the point, I want to Ask the Secretary for Scotland whether that object would be achieved by my proposal, or whether it must be done in some other way, and also what opportunity will be accorded for raising this specific question?
That is the same point as was raised by the hon. Member
improvement, and it would be very ungrateful of me not to acknowledge that fact. The Montrose Burghs, though they would be glad to welcome a near neighbour, have certainly no desire to force her into a new allegiance against her will. I therefore support my hon. Friend, although I must make it quite clear to the hon. Gentleman and to the Government, that any support which I give is conditional on the existing burghs remaining together in a unit, with or without additions.
This Amendment, as the hon. Member for Forfarshire (Mr. Falconer) pointed out, stands in a quite exceptional position. It does not involve the addition of a new member; it involves no interference with the scheme of the Commissioners' Report; it has encountered no opposition in this Committee; it is supported unanimously, as I understand, in Forfarshire. It has in point of fact the support of both political parties, the chairmen of which have combined in pressing for the acceptance of it. In these circumstances it is consistent with my duty to accept the Amendment, and I do so.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In column 2, leave out the words "and Kirriemuir."— [ Mr. Falconer. ]
for Montrose Burghs (Mr. Harcourt). My view is that the order of the names in the Schedule does not affect that point. Perhaps the hon. Member will be satisfied if the Secretary for Scotland gives him an answer.
I have no difficulty in giving an answer to my hon. Friend. The order of the names to which he refers has nothing whatever to do with which shall be the returning burgh. That is a matter which will have to come up on the Report stage of the Bill, either by way of a new Schedule or by way of giving the returning officer in Scotland the power he has in England to decide which shall be the returning burgh. I assure my hon. Friend and the Committee that the order of the names here will not affect the decision of that question one way or the other.
Will an opportunity be given to raise it on the Report stage?
Renfrew District of Burghs Burghs of Port Glasgow, Gourock, Johnstone, Barrhead, and Renfrew, together with as much of the Burgh of Renfrew as is contained within the Parish of Govan, in the County of Lanark. One — —
In this case I am by no means in the position of the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Harcourt) because I am wholeheartedly in favour of my own Amendment. It is the natural solution of the difficulty that has presented itself since the Boundary Commissioners' Report was placed on our hands. In this particular case there is no question of increasing the number of members. The county of Renfrew will have four members, one for Greenock, one for Paisley, and one each for the Eastern and Western Divisions of the county. If there is any case in which the Scottish system of grouping burghs could have been conveniently carried out it is in the county of Renfrew. By putting the whole of the burghs in separate divisions east and west, the Commissioners are depriving Port Glasgow and Renfrew of burghal rights. That is a quite unnecessary proceeding. The Commissioners were told they might regroup the burghs in Scotland. The original recommendation was that they should be grouped in a particular county, but the House gave instructions that they might be grouped in contiguous counties. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gulland) put forward a proposal this afternoon in regard to Dumfries. He threw his net very wide indeed and took in groups of burghs in two counties in the South of Scotland. I am very glad he proposed that Amendment, because I cannot see how he can oppose mine.
It was not accepted.
If his Amendment was not accepted by the Committee, I am entitled to ask his individual support for mine, which is a much more simple, natural, reasonable and obvious proposal than his, particularly as in my case all the burghs are unanimous in asking Parliament to support it, and I understood the Secretary of Scotland to say, in the case of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gulland), that unanimity was not quite apparent. Why in a case of this sort should the direct instructions of the House in regard to agriculture and
Most certainly.
urban interests be overridden as they have been by the Commissioners? I cannot for the life of me understand it. In this case the county council is absolutely unanimous. You have these five burghs absolutely unanimous in asking that this division should take place and that there should be an urban and a rural division. You have the Agricultural Society of the same mind. I do not know who opposes it. I have seen the provosts of these burghs. They vary in mind, as do most provosts. One, who was certainly a Liberal, was just as strongly in favour of this Amendment as are the others. I do not know what their politics are, but they represent both sides. They are all unanimous, and not only unanimous but almost violent in their support of this. I do not know what line my hon. and gallant Friend beside me (Colonel Greig) is going to take. I sympathise very deeply with him in having to decide. It is almost a judgment of Paris; but we have here at all events what the Home Secretary has always asked for, and what I think my right hon. Friend will ask for, and that is absolute unanimity both of the county councils and borough councils in this matter. You have other institutions in the county asking that this division should take place, and with very great confidence I recommend it to my right hon. Friend, and I shall be very much surprised if he does not see his way to accept it.
The hon. Baronet who has just spoken rightly said that I might find myself in a rather peculiar position, because whichever way I go on this Amendment of his I am perfectly certain there will be a large number of my Constituents, or of other members in the constituency, who will disagree with whatever line I take. I need scarcely tell the House that I was very reluctant to intervene at all. When it originally came up I thought it would be better to be left to the Commissioners appointed by the House, but I have less hesitation now in intervening because my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger). who has a very nice compact burghal constituency now, has relieved me of the necessity of stating both cases. He has shown his desire to please by coming up into Renfrewshire and starting the idea of a new district of burghs. In these circumstances I can see that my duty is to state what are the facts there, what has taken place before the Commissioners, what their position has been, and if I am logically led to support the conclusion at which they have arrived I shall, at any rate, leave it to an impartial body to decide the matter. In the first place, I may inform my hon. Friend that this decision of the Commissioners was come to after a full local inquiry. He is not quite correct when he says that the county council was unanimous. What happened was that on the first decision of the Commissioners coming before the county council the scheme of my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr Burghs was brought up in the county council and was, I admit, carried by 18 to 8. There was a division there. The parties who were supporting this were, I believe, a large number of members of the county council, and they all went before the Deputy-Commissioner, who heard everyone's case. I believe at that inquiry there were represented the Unionist Association, and the burghs, by some of their officials, the county council, and the East and West Renfrewshire Liberal Associations. Those two last associations supported the Commissioners' own scheme with a slight amendment. That slight amendment was that the Commissioners' own original first scheme left a difference in numbers between the two districts into which they divided Renfrewshire of 8,000, and they suggested that that should be altered by allowing one burgh in the county to remain in the Western Division, and so equalise absolutely the two divisions. At the present time Renfrewshire is divided into two divisions, the East and the West. Owing to Glasgow having taken in within its municipal boundaries a large portion of the county a great deal of East Renfrewshire goes into Glasgow, and a great deal of West Renfrewshire—two densely populated burghs. That has gone, and I cannot object to that. The character of the electorate in Renfrewshire at the present time is what I may call industrial, and to talk of it as an agricultural community, anybody who knows it realises, is to state what has no basis whatever. The figures of the total workers—I do not say popula- tion—are something like this: Of 139,000 or 140,000 males and females in the county the agricultural workers are 4,225, or anything between 3 and 4 per cent. In the county there are two burghs already existing with separate representation, which will be retained. One is that represented by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Greenock (Colonel Collins), which has 77,000, and the other represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Sir J. McCallum), which is a very much larger constituency. What would the provisional decision do? The provisional decision of the Commissioners was that the county should be divided longitudinally into Barrhead and Renfrew Divisions, and they threw into those divisions a couple of Kilmarnock burghs which were in the air owing to the dissolution of the Kilmarnock burghs. The fault, if there was any in that division, was that it made the population in the two divisions slightly unequal. When I am stating these arguments, let it be clear that they are the arguments put before the Commissioners themselves at the hearing.
By whom?
By the Liberal associations. The Barrhead division would have a total of 65,344, and the Renfrew division 56,362. What happened was this. The Commissioners heard the proposals of the supporters of the Amendment put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr Burghs. They heard the views in support of their own scheme, subject to the slight alteration, and they have decided in the long run that they would adopt the amended scheme that has now been put forward, and the one at which, this Amendment is directed. What was the effect of that amended scheme I It is this. First of all, that it follows absolutely the areas of local administration in accordance with the Instruction, and that was the position upon which the Liberal associations were going the whole time. It followed exactly the delimitation of the upper and lower districts of Renfrewshire, subject to this, and I am prepared to concede that, the burgh of Johnstone, which is on the line between the two districts, is included in the West division. East Renfrewshire comes out with 60,099, and West Renfrewshire with 59,852, almost absolutely equal.
It is the same if you divide it into burghs.
I will deal with that later. In addition to following the local areas it absolutely retains the old name of East and West Renfrewshire, which has always had two members. It scarcely alters the electors at all, and it takes into East Renfrewshire the burgh of Renfrew, and takes into West Renfrewshire Port Glasgow, which is also one of the Kilmarnock burghs. What would happen if his scheme is adopted? If my hon. Friend will look at the Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners for Scotland he will see that Section 14 says this:
"Where districts of burghs comprise burghs in different counties, or where under the foregoing rules a constituency which is a district of burghs would lose representation, the Commissioners shall consider the desirability of regrouping the burghs or adding neigh bouring burghs in the same county, regard being had to their size, to a proper representation of the urban and rural population, and to the distribution and pursuits of such population, provided—"
and it is the proviso to which I would call the attention of the House—
"that the representation of the county is not thereby affected."
If the House will look at my hon. Friend's Amendment it will find that Renfrewshire is reduced under his scheme to one member, because East and West Renfrewshire are thrown together, and certain burghs which I represent at the present time are taken out. To take the three names. Port Glasgow is a burgh from the Kilmarnock Burghs. Gouvock I am representing, and is in West Renfrewshire. John-stone is in West Renfrewshire, and Barrhead is in West Renfrewshire, while Renfrew Burgh is from the Kilmarnock Burghs I would again point out that I am only advancing the reasons put Taefore the Commissioners, and the Commissioners, having heard the whole of the position, actually in their Report say, on page 3:
"Great interest appears to have been shown in these local inquiries by local authorities, by political and labour associations, and by private persons. They have proved of the utmost value in eliciting the expression of local opinion, and have enabled us in a number of cases to effect improvements on our original proposals. In every case we examined very carefully the statements forwarded by the Assistant Commissioner, and gave full consideration to his report."
After all that, I think the Commissioners, having heard the whole of the case and having formed their conclusions after hearing everybody, it is a little extraordinary that the hon. Member should come forward now in face of the strong opposition of at least the Liberal Associations of East and West Renfrewshire. They based their opposition to any alteration of the scheme on the fact that it coincides absolutely with the local districts, and I say it would be very foolish to deviate from the Commissioners' decision. I do not mind taking my stand upon this: that nowadays we ought to have solidarity of interests between town and country, and it is absurd to draw strong distinctions between burgh and county. 1 have for a long time represented agricultural interests. I have taken action which I considered right in their interests, and I have had no difficulty in doing it. To draw this strong distinction and to create a fresh group of burghs in a county where they do not exist at the present time should, I suggest to the Committee, not be done, and I think we should abide by the decision of the Commissioners.
8.0 P.M.
I rise to support the hon. and gallant Member who has I think covered the ground very fully and submitted the various arguments which I hope will justify the Committee in maintaining the decision come to by the Commissioners in this matter. My Constituency is in the county of Renfrewshire, but the Amendment does not specifically deal with it. The main point I would ask the Secretary for Scotland to bear in mind is that these divisions are based on the administrative area, and with that point before him I trust he will not alter the decision come to by the Commissioners. If the Amendment is carried there will be three burgh constituencies and only one county constituency, whereas now there are two county constituencies and two burghs, and I think by the existing arrangements the different interests in the county have a much better chance of being represented in this House.
There is one point that has not been considered by the Committee in dealing with this question. The hon. Baronet (Sir G. Younger) made an appeal for the grouping of boroughs, but if you are going to proceed to group burghs in this particular instance, you will have to deal with a great number of other cases in which the Boundary Commission have given their decision and where, as in the case of Lanarkshire, big burghs have been included within county divisions. The main consideration which arises when dealing with large industrial areas, such as Lanarkshire or Renfrewshire, is to give weight to the character of the population. In such areas it is often, found that the industrial character of the population extends out with the burgh areas. In consequence a distinction cannot be drawn so clearly between the purely burghal and county areas. That point was well met by my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Greig) when he said that the agricultural population of Renfrewshire was trifling—only 3 or 4 per cent. of the total population.
I think it will be found that the workers in the constituency are about 140,000.
And of that population only 3 per cent. is engaged in agriculture. Outside the burghs you have large industrial areas. It would not be in order to raise the question of Lanarkshire on this Amendment, but I want to point out that, in connection with these populous districts of which Lanarkshire is so typical, if this proposal were to be considered the same question would arise in quite a number of instances where the Boundary Commissioners have already given their decision, which has been accepted in a very fair spirit by many burghs which might otherwise be entitled to claim separate representation. The burgh interests, of course, ought to be considered. I would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman might very well provide that in a district where there are large burghs, they should not have to go to the county town for the counting of the votes, but should have the poll declared in the principal burgh of the division. That would go far to remove any sense of grievance, and I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to give us some assurance that he will keep that in view. In this particular instance, the Commissioners were precluded definitely by their Instructions from doing otherwise than they did do.
The Amendment proposed by the hon. Baronet involves this, that it invites the House to substitute for the two county divisions, East and West Renfrew, a Parliamentary district of burghs, which would include, with the exception of Paisley and Greenock, all the burghs in the county, and a constituency composed of the extra burghal areas. I have to say that that scheme was submitted to the Commissioners and carefully considered by them. It was supported, according to my information, by, among others, various Unionist associations, and it was opposed, also according to my information, by, among others, various Liberal associations. When I have said that, I am quite sure the hon. Baronet who moved the Amendment will be the first to admit that I am, by that simple fact, disabled from accepting the Amendment. But while that is sufficient for the decision of the matter, I want to say a word about its merits. The hon. Baronet first of all indicated that one of the arguments which was used in support of the proposal which he made was that you might carve out an agricultural constituency from the extra burghal areas. I have made some investigation into that matter, and I find that out of the total population of this very populous county there are only 3,574 persons over ten years of age who are engaged in agriculture. Therefore, that argument, in so far as it was relied upon, I think, manifestly falls. The truth of the matter is that these scattered burghs in the county have really less in common with one another than they have with the extra burghal areas round about them, areas which are becoming industrialised and more and more urban in their character. In disposing of this Amendment we can hardly leave out the analogy of Lanarkshire, because in Lanarkshire the Commissioners first of all proposed a similar scheme to this. They proposed to carve out a district of burghs. They therefore held a local inquiry, and, after that inquiry was held, they found that their proposal would not do, and the scheme was accordingly withdrawn. It was a scheme that bears close resemblance to the present scheme, and, while my hon. Friend is quite entitled to think that the Commissioners have not acted wisely in, the matter, nevertheless it is relevant to point out to the Committee that the two cases are very similar, and that, after all, geographical continuity often creates a closer bond than usually exists between widely scattered burghs.
At any rate, this particular scheme which has prevailed with the Commissioners and which I invite the Committee to sanction, involves the least possible disturbance of existing arrangements. That can be said in commendation of it apart from the other considerations which I have ventured to indicate. I suggest to the Committee, both on the preliminary ground—which the hon. Baronet would be the first to admit—and on the merits, it is plain that this Amendment cannot be accepted, and I accordingly invite the Committee to reject it.
I cannot, of course, press the Amendment in the face of what my right hon. Friend has said. It was not brought forward because representations were received from the Unionist associa- tions. Those representations came from the chairmen of the county councils and the provosts of the burghs, who saw me here. I was, indeed, told that the chairman of the Liberal Association was about the only person who was keen on the Boundary Commissioners' plan, but, as far as I am concerned, I cannot press the Amendment. I would point out, however, that whatever the agricultural population of Renfrewshire is, it is certainly going to
PART II.—PARLIAMENTARY COUNTIES. (1) ENGLAND, EXCLUDING MONMOUTHSHIRE. Name of Parliamentary County. Contents of Parliamentary County. Total Number of Members for Parliamentary County. Names of Divisions of Parliamentary County. Contents or Boundaries of Divisions. Chester … — — Chester … The Rural District of Chester, the County Borough of Chester, and the Urban District of Hoole.
I beg to move, in column 4, before the word "Chester," to insert the words "City of."
The scheme before us only affects two counties of cities. It takes away representation from two counties of cities—the county of the city of Canterbury, which has only 23,000 electors, and the county of the city of Chester—the ancient city of Chester—which has 48,000 electors. I think Chester has a very fair claim for retaining its representation, in view of the fact that Parliament gave the Boundary Commissioners the option of making exceptions in cases that came near to 50,000 population. But the Commissioners decided against Chester, and the object of this Amendment is that a new division, which will have about 58,000 population, of whom no fewer than 48,000 are in the Parliamentary borough of the county of the city of Chester, shall be called the city of Chester. Over seven hundred years ago a Royal Charter referred to the city as the "City of Chester," and over four hundred years ago—in the year 1506—another Royal Charter laid it down that
be overwhelmed, and that is one of the things which, according to the Instructions to the Commissioners, ought to be avoided. Although I have tried to get the opinions of the present Member for East Renfrewshire on this point, I have been unable to do so, for I believe he is one of those who has been engaged in the capture of Gaza, and I trust he has come through it safely.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
has large up-to-date works, employing a considerable number of people. Indeed, I feel confident that in the not far distant future Chester will again be entitled, by reason of its size, to a member for itself. In view of all these facts, I have much pleasure in moving this Amendment.
I should like to support the Amendment for the reason that the word "Cheshire" is officially quite unknown. In the first column of the Schedule the name of the Parliamentary county is Chester, and not Cheshire. In order to make that distinction, which is in certain cases very confusing in our county, it would be well, in my opinion, to put in the words "city of" before Chester when we come to name this division.
I should like to say a word in support of my hon. Friend, in view of the fact that he has taken away some of my constituents to help his new constituency along, to show that I bear no ill will. He hoped that Chester would soon be big enough to qualify for a member on its own, and I hope in that case my Constituents will come back to me. We have had historical reminiscences about various cities, and the city of Chester is one of the most ancient in the country. This is really more a point of sentiment than of any great material importance, and if it gratifies Chester to have the name of "city." I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to give the hon. Member what he asks.
I wish to add a word in support of the Amendment. I appeared before the Commissioners, and I was one of those who asked that the city of Chester should remain with its representation, but I quite realised that there were good and sufficient reasons at headquarters why that could not be allowed, and I think this perhaps is a concession which, under these circumstances, might very reasonably be made.
Living, as I have all my life, close to Chester, and knowing a great many people in Chester, I know how keen they are that the name of the city of Chester should be kept, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to accept the Amendment.
It is with genuine grief that many of us see that the historic cities of Chester and Canterbury are to disappear from the list of Parliamentary boroughs. Many of us wished it would have been possible to save the representation, but it was not found possible. I quite agree that there has been a good deal of local feeling and local lamentation on the subject. I know that my hon. Friend who represents Chester is representing that feeling, which is very widespread, and if anything could be done to soothe that feeling by reason of a little alteration in nomenclature it ought to be done. When my hon. Friend is supported by no fewer than four members sitting for various divisions of the county of Cheshire, I think I may feel quite safe in accepting the Amendment and perpetuating the name of the city of Chester in the nomenclature of the divisions of the county of Cheshire.
Chester … — — Eddisbury The Rural Districts of Malpas and Tarvin, the part of the Rural District of Nantwich which is not included in the Crewe Division, the part of the Rural District of Northwich which consists of the civil parishes of Crowton, Cuddington, Darnhall, Delamere, Eddisbury, Little Budworth, Marton, Oakmere, and Wimboldsley, the part of the Rural District of Runcorn which consists of the civil parishes of Alvanley, Frodsham, Frodsham Lordship, Helsby, Kingsley, Kingswood, Manley, Newton by Frodsham, Norley, and Weston, and the Urban Districts of Runcorn and Tarporley.
I beg to move, in Column 5, after the words, "Newton-by-Frodsham," to insert tht word "and."
There appear a considerable number of Amendments, one after the other, in my name and in the names of the hon. Members (Captain Barnston and Mr. Brunner), but they are practically one operation, and are all practically consequential Amendments. They may very fairly come under the head of what the right hon. Gentleman calls domestic Amendments, because they do not interfere in any way with the balance of the scheme in the county. They do not add another member, or anything of that sort. The object is to take out of a rural constituency an industrial part and put it into an industrial constituency and to take out of the industrial constituency some parishes which are distinctly of a rural nature and
Amendment agreed to.
add them to the contiguous rural constituency. The constituency out of which the industrial part is taken is the Eddisbury Division, and the industrial part which it is proposed to take out of it is the urban district of Runcorn, with the adjoining parish of Weston, which is industrial, and put it into the Northwich Division, which is an industrial division. Also doing that brings back the Northwich Division to the same position in which it was before, because that part originally belonged to it, and these parishes which it is proposed to take out of Northwich and put into the adjacent rural constituency of Knutsford are parishes which, previous to this, belong to Knutsford, so that one may fairly say that these three constituencies will be much more like what they were Before the redistribution scheme. This is agreed to by all the interested parties. It is agreed by the three members who put their nams down, who represent both sides of politics, and as far as the Knutsford Division is concerned, the adjoining divisions on the other side of it, namely, Macclesfield and Altrincham, agree to this alteration, and those two divisions are also represented by both sides of politics. As far as that is concerned, I think we may say there is general agreement. Then, again, there is general agreement on behalf of the Runcorn people. They are anxious to come back to their old allegiance. They were never a consenting party to the divorce, and they wish to come back to their first love. This scheme also has the backing of the agricultural bodies of the county. It is backed up by the Cheshire Chamber of Agriculture, by the Cheshire Farmers' Club, and by the Cheshire Agricultural Society, and it is helping to carry out that Instruction which was given by the House on the lines of segregating the rural from the industrial parts of the county. Cheshire was a very difficult county to draw up a scheme for on these lines. It was quite impossible, the Commissioners found when they came to get to work, to divide it upon the lines of rural district areas, and we are very much obliged in the county to the Commissioners for cutting across those areas and drawing up their scheme on the lines of segregating the rural from the industrial. This Amendment will in no way cut across any of the Instructions which have been given. It will leave the population of the constituencies such as falls within the Commissioners' Instructions, and the alteration can fairly be described as an improvement suggested by local knowledge in carrying out the Commissioners' intentions.
This is the first of a series of seven Amendments which all carry out the scheme my hon. Friend has outlined. I speak in the main for the town of Runcorn, which has been part of the Northwich Division for thirty-two years, and is an industrial town which has a community of interest with Northwich and other towns of the Northwich Division. The scheme of the Commissioners proposed to put Runcorn into the wholly agricultural area of Eddisbury, and the people of Runcorn of all shades of politics strongly object. The, urban district council of Runcorn have unani- mously passed a resolution to the effect that if Runcorn is not to have a division of its own, as was originally proposed, they should come back to the Northwich Division. I do not want the Committee to think that this is a nefarious bargain between the three members of the adjoining constituencies of Eddisbury, Northwich, and Knutsford to keep their own seats. I must frankly confess that there are parties interested in this matter who are not of the same opinion. The Liberals of the Eddisbury Division would like to have Runcorn, and the Liberals of Knutsford would like to do away with that part of the present Knutsford Division which they have now, but which under the scheme of the Commissioners is thrown into Northwich. But there are four parties out of six who are completely unanimous. As regards the other two they have, to my mind, not a good case, because Eddisbury now has not got Runcorn, and it is no hardship not to give her Runcorn in the future. The Knutsford Division has up to now had the area which it is proposed to transfer to Northwich, and therefore it is no hardship to them that they should retain it in future. I think that on Instruction No. 12, to the effect that the Commissioners should segregate as far as possible adjacent industrial and rural areas, our case is complete.
I desire to support the Amendment. When the Commissioners came to Chester it was, I think, agreed by everybody—in fact everybody asked—that we should keep in Cheshire two agricultural seats, namely, Eddisbury and Knutsford, and it was rather a surpise to find that the town of Runcorn, which is a purely industrial town, and has no community of interest at all with the great industrial division of Eddisbury, should have been taken from Northwich and put into the Eddisbury Division, thereby extending that division right from the Mersey to Shropshire. The suggestion we make is that Runcorn should remain where it is and where it wants to be—I know that Runcorn has very strong objection to going into the agricultural division of Eddisbury—and that the agricultural parts which have always been in the Knutsford Division should be left as they are. Inasmuch as this carries out the wishes of the local people, I think it is an Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman might accept.
This is an adjustment of boundaries supported by members for the three divisions affected who represent different sides in politics. I know there is some measure of local dissent, but this proposal is assented to by the majority of people in the locality. It seems to me that, on the whole, it is an adjustment which we might make. The only doubt I have is that it reduces the constituency of Eddisbury to a somewhat lower figure than the other two constituencies. But, on the other hand, the area of the Eddis-
Chester … — — Knutsfo The part of the Rural District of Buck-low which consists of the civil parishes of Aston by Budworth, Bexton, Marthall-cum-Warford, Mere, Mobberley, Ollerton, Peover Inferior, Peover Superior, Pickmere, Plumley, Styal, Tabley Inferior, Tabley Superior, Tatton, and Toft; the part of the Rural District of Congleton which is not included in the Crewe, Macclesfield, and Northwich Divisions; the part of the Rural District of Macclesfield which consists of the civil parishes of Adlington, Butley, Capesthorne, Chelford, Chorley, Fallibroome, Great Warford, Lower Withington, Marton, Mottram St. Andrew, Nether Alderley, Newton, Old Withington, Over Alderley, Poynton with Worth, Prestbury, Siddington, Snelson, Tytherington, Upton, and Woodford; the part of the Rural District of Northwich which consists of the civil parishes of Allostock, Byley, Lach Dennis, Lostock Gralam, Nether Peover, Rndheath, Sproston, and Whatcroft; and the Urban Districts of Alderley Edge, Bollington, Hazel Grove and Bramhall, Knutsford, and Wilmslow.
Amendments made: In column 5, after the word "Whatcroft," insert the words "the part of the Rural District of Runcorn which consists of the civil parishes of Acton Grange, Antrobus, Appleton, Crowley, Daresbury, Grappenhall, Hatton,
Chester … — — Northwich The part of the Rural District of Congleton which consists of the civil parishes of Bradwall, Elton, Moston, and Tetton, the part of the Rural District of Northwich which is not included in the Eddisbury and Knutsford Divisions, the part of the Rural District of Runcorn which is not included in the Eddisbury Division, and the Urban Districts of Middlewich, Northwich, Sandbach, and Winsford.
Amendment made: In column 5, leave out the word "Division," and insert instead thereof the words, "Knutsford Divisions."
bury Division is larger than the area of the other division, and that might be taken into account. Therefore I think we can accept this Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In column 5, leave out the words "and Weston."
Leave out the words "Districts," and insert instead thereof the word "District."
Leave out the words "Runcorn and."—[ Sir A. Sykes. ]
Higher Whitley, Keckwick, Latchford Without, Lower Whitley, Moore, Newton by Daresbury, Preston on the Hill, Seven Oaks, Stockton Heath, Stretton, Thelwall, Walton Inferior, and Walton Superior."—[ Sir A. Sykes. ]
After the word "Northwich," insert the word "Runcorn."—[ Sir A. Sykes. ]
Chester … — — Stalybridge The Rural District of Tintwistle, the Municipal Boroughs of Dukinfield, Hyde, and Stalybridge, and the Urban Districts of Hollingworth and Mottram in Longdendale.
I beg to move, in column 4, after the word "Stalybridge," to insert the word "Hyde."
I have been asked by the hon. Member for Hyde (Mr. Jacobsen) to move this Amendment in his unavoidable absence. If the Committee will turn to the Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners they will find that Instruction 14 provides that when any ancient part of any borough loses its representation the county division in which the borough becomes merged shall be named after the merged borough. The Boundary Commissioners seemed to have followed that a little too literally here, because Stalybridge is not an ancient borough. The individual who drafted this Instruction did not foresee what has occurred in this part of East Cheshire. Stalybridge is merged into the county, but the area which is taken into the new county division contains the larger borough of Hyde. I am not going to say that Hyde is the more important borough or else my life would not be worth having when next I go to Stalybridge, but Hyde is no doubt the larger borough, and the people of Hyde, as a compromise, want to have their larger population represented in the name of the new division by having the words "and Hyde" inserted after "Stalybridge." I wish the House to realise that I am heaping coals of fire upon the heads of the electors of Hyde, which rejected me in the year 1900.
I should like to second the observations which have been made by the hon. Member for Northwich. There was a very considerable feeling, as I can testify from my own personal experience, before the Commissioners as to
Cornwall … — — Bodmin … The Rural Districts of Liskeard and St. Germans, the part of the Rural District of Bodmin which is not included in the Launceston Division, the part of the Rural District of St. Austell which consists of the civil parishes of St. Sampson and Tywardreath, the Municipal Boroughs of Bodmin, Fowey, Liskeard, Lostwithiel, and Saltash, and the Urban Districts of Callington, Looe, and Torpoint.
I beg to propose, in column 4, to omit the word
the relative merits of the towns of Stalybridge and Hyde. Like the hon. Member who has just spoken, I am not going to enter into the relative merits of the two towns, but I think one must have sympathy with Hyde, because Hyde, previous to this, gave her name to a county constituency, but by the scheme of the Commissioners she has lost that honour. She has been merged with Stalybridge. It was quite impossible for the Commissioners to distribute the county in any other way, except by putting the three contiguous boroughs of Stalybridge, Dukinfield, and Hyde together. I think it is a very fair request to make that Hyde's ancient glory in giving her name to a constituency should be perpetuated by having her name added to that of Stalybridge.
I desire to say a word in support of this Amendment. I know personally this district very well indeed. I have a very large number of personal and political friends in Hyde, and I know that a great deal of feeling will be aroused unless this Amendment is accepted. Hyde used to give its own name to a Parliamentary division. Though changes have to be effected I am quite sure that there will be no opposition from any quarter to this desire to have Hyde added to Stalybridge, and I hope that the Home Secretary will see his way to accept the Amendment.
I have no objection to this Amendment. Hyde is not only a borough with a population of from 33,000, but it gave its name to a county division, and it is only reasonable that its name should appear in a new division.
Amendment agreed to.
"Bodmin" and to insert instead thereof the words "South Eastern."
I believe that in the constituencies of Cornwall considerable difficulty was found by the Commissioners in coming to what they regarded as a satisfactory arrangement. This is not the time to go into the questions of what one feels as to the arrangements which they have made, but as the result of that arrangement there is considerable feeling in certain parts of the county with regard to the names by which the constituencies should be called, and it has been suggested by one of the local authorities in the constituency which I now represent that the points of the compass should be put in instead of the names already existing. In the case of the constituency of Bodmin it is called in the official records the South-Eastern or Bodmin Division of Cornwall. I have known that division practically the whole of my life. I have taken part in its politics since it existed. That constituency is not locally at any rate spoken of as the Bodmin Division, but is always known as the South-Eastern Division of Cornwall. As evidence of that I have here an advertisement which appeared in the paper, a letter from the late Member of the South-Eastern Division of Cornwall, General Pole-Carew, in which he returns thanks for the support given him in the South-Eastern Cornwall election. I notice in a paper of the same period that in the election addresses of the various candidates while the town name of the constituency is always given in the case of Devon, in the case of Cornwall the names were given as North-Eastern, South-Eastern, or other points of the compass. I venture, therefore, to move this Amendment, which is the first of a series.
Cornwall … — — Penryn and Falmouth The part of the Rural District of St. Austell which is not included in the Bodmin Division, the part of each of the Rural Districts of East Kerrier and Truro which is not included in the Camborne Division, the Municipal Boroughs of Falmouth, Penryn, and Truro, and the Urban District of St. Austell.
I beg to move, in column 4, before the word "Penryn," to insert the word "Truro."
My only desire is to bring in the name of the city of Truro, which would have been the title of the Division if the Boundary Commissioners had not unfortunately changed their minds. They held an inquiry, and after considering the evidence given they brought in "Penryn and Falmouth" and, those being the last boroughs of the county to be disfranchised, they became the name of the new Division. Without any antagonism to Penryn and Falmouth it is the desire of the local people not only of Truro but of Penryn and Falmouth also that the name "Truro" should be incorporated in the
I do not know whether my hon. Friend has given notice of his Amendment to the hon. Member for the Bodmin Division (Mr. Hanson). I think that the Committee would like to hear the views of that hon. Member. On the whole I like the local name better than the geographical name, unless there is some circumstance which causes one to prefer the points of the compass to the names of the places, I do not think that the Committee would be prepared to accept this Amendment and similar Amendments until it hears the views of hon. Members who are supposed to be interested in the matter. I do not think I could accept the Amendment without further notice.
In view of what the Home Secretary has said, I beg to withdraw this Amendment, and I will not proceed with the other ones, but I could put them down on the Report stage, when the matter might receive full consideration.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
title of the new Division. Truro is a very ancient city. As the House knows it was incorporated in the year 1130 and from 1294 until 1885 it returned two members to this House and in 1885 it gave its name to the new division which I have the honour to represent to-day. The city of Truro is at the present time the only city in Cornwall. It is the centre of the local government of the county. The county council has its offices there and meets there. The county education committee meets there, it is the centre of all the local life of the county. There are only two institutions of the county which are not situated in Truro—the asylum and the jail. For reasons of convenience, I have no doubt, they were placed elsewhere. It is very desirable that the ancient name of the city should be incorporated in the title of the new Division. It would be a pity that a city which has had something like 800 years of corporate life and more than 600 of Parliamentary fame should be effaced entirely from the future of Parliamentary life.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Penryn has an engagement elsewhere which prevents his being present to-night, and he has written a letter to me raising strong objections to this Amendment. Nobody disputes the importance of the city of Truro, but Penryn is the old division—
It is not a division; it is a borough.
If you add the name Truro you not only have a double-barrelled name, but if the Amendment as to St. Austell were adopted it would be a triple-barrelled name, and that would be going rather a long way towards meeting views as to the names of divisions. I do not very much like even a double-barrelled name, and to add more barrels would be going rather far. I would suggest that as there are other Amendments in the name of the hon. Gentleman (Sir Francis Lay-land-Barratt) which are to be taken on the Report stage, this also might be considered at a later date, so that there might be some possibility of an agreed proposal.
Cornwall … — — Lannceston The Rural Districts of Calstock, Camelford, Launceston, St. Columb Major, and Stratton, the part of the Rural District of Holsworthy which is within the Administrative County of Cornwall, the part of the Rural District of Bodmin which consists of the civil parishes of Egloshayle, St. Endellion, St. Kew, St. Minver Highlands, and St. Minver Lowlands, the Municipal Borough of Launceston, and the Urban Districts of Newquay, Padstow, Stratton and Bude, and Wadebridge.
I beg to move, in column 4, after the word "Launceston," insert the words "or Northern."
I only ask that the name of the division should be retained. It has always been known as the Northern and Launceston Division, and there is now to be added to it a large area which is not really, I suggest, in the Launceston or Northern Division. This is one of the most extraordinary constituencies, if only hon. Members could see it, and now seventy-seven miles of sea coast are to be included in it.
The hon. Member for Penryn and Falmouth has written me accepting this Amendment with the modification that the names Penryn and Falmouth should come first. To that there would be no objection at all. I understood that he agreed, and that is why I said that the people of Falmouth expressed their readiness to include Truro.
I have an Amendment containing the alternative proposal that St. Austell should be the name of the constituency of Mid-Cornwall, but, in view of the remarks of the Home Secretary, I do not propose to move it at this moment. If I had moved it I should have pointed out that this new constituency contains parts of Penryn, of Falmouth, and of Truro, and a part of St. Austell, and if you go into the question of size and of population, and of rateable value, St. Austell has the overwhelming advantage.
The Home Secretary hopes there will be something like agreement on this matter, but I must say at once that in the neighbouring division of the county of Cornwall almost everybody outside the division under discussion, take the view that the really only satisfactory solution would be to call it Mid-Cornwall.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment made: In column 2, after the word "Cornwall," insert the words "and the Isles of Scilly."—[ Sir (J. Cave. )
Launceston, the name-place, is forty-five miles away from some of the other places to which it gives its name, though this ancient borough has no association with those districts forty-five miles away. Therefore, I think it very desirable that the name of Launceston should not be simply the name of the division, but that it should be Launceston or Northern Division. It is quite right that the name of the borough should be retained as the place-name, but that place-name has no significance at all for the large area forty-five miles away, and, therefore, I think that we are bound to keep the name Northern Division as well as the place-name Launceston.
The Boundary Commissioners have adopted a rule which tends to accuracy, that alternative names shall not be given to constituencies. I would suggest to my hon. Friend that if he makes the name "Launceston or Northern"—
Make it "and Northern."
Derby … — — Ashbourne The Rural Districts of Ashbourne and Sudbury, the Rural District of Bakewell (except the two detached parts of the civil parish of Outseats which are bounded on three sides by the civil parish of Derwent), the part of the Rural District of Repton which consists of the civil parishes of Barton Blount, Church Broughton, Foston and Scropton, Hatton, Hilton, Hoon, Marston-on-Dove, Osleston and Thurvaston, and Sutton-on-the-Hill, the part of the Rural District of Chapelen-le-Frith which consists of the two detached parts of the civil parish of Derwent bounded on the west by the civil parish of Hathersage, and the Urban Districts of Ashbourne, Bakewell, Baslow and Bubnell, Bonsall, Matlock, Matlock Bath and Scarthin Nick, North Darley, South Darley, and Wirksworth.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the word "Ashbourne" and to insert instead thereof the word "Western."
This proposal in part relates to the constituency which I have the honour to represent. The object of he Amendment is to remain as we are in West Derby shire. West Derbyshire is a large scattered constituency, in which there are four towns each of which might with justice claim to give the name to the constituency, and they do in fact each make that claim, as I know from correspondence. The name selected by the Boundary Commissioners was, I suppose, selected because the town of Ashbourne has got a very large rural district, but the other towns in question—namely, Matlock, Bakewell, and Winkworth—might claim to have very substantial ground why in each case they should give the name to the constituency. Matlock has a larger population, and the town of Bakewell is extremely ancient, while Winkworth has
I would rather delete alternative names, but I would suggest, as we are going to have a discussion on the names of the Cornwall Divisions, the hon. Gentleman might allow his Amendment to stand over until the Report stage, so that hon. Members may consider whether the Division should be called by the place-name or by the point of the compass name.
Without prejudice to ancient rights, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
9.0 P.M.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
considerable industries. It seems to me that under the circumstances the one satisfactory way out is to adopt a name which favours none and is fair to all. From communications I have had from the constituency I am perfectly sure that although each of the four towns I have mentioned would like to have its name adopted, the majority would certainly go in favour of retaining the general name of West Derbyshire which we have had for years past. That name was adopted originally because there was a difficulty in discriminating between the rival merits of the four towns I have mentioned, and it has satisfied everyone. I therefore very much hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept it.
The Amendment of the Noble Lord is an example which I commend to hon. Members from Cornwall, and it is one which I readily accept.
Amendment agreed to.
Derby … — — Shardlow … The Rural Districts of Hartshorn and Seals and Shardlow, the part of the Rural District of Repton which consists of the civil parishes of Caldwell, Castle Gresley, Catton, Coton in the Elms, Drakelow, Linton, Lullington, Rosliston, and Walton-upon-Trent, and the Urban Districts of Alvaston and Boulton, Long Eaton, and Swadlincote District.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the word "Shardlow," and to insert instead thereof the words "South Derbyshire."
The Amendment which I propose is consistent with the practice which has been adopted. The constituency has always been known as South Derbyshire. The Amendment which I propose is consistent with the practice which has been adopted. The constituency has always been known as South Derbyshire. The name was given to it in the Reform Bill of 1832 and historical associations and traditions have grown lip, and it is the universal desire of the people there that the name which I propose should be retained. Shardlow has no historical or political significance. It is a small town, containing, to be exact, a thousand and one inhabitants. I believe its only claim to distinction is that it is a Poor Law area, but the electors of Derbyshire do not care much about the Poor Law. I hope that in accordance with the course which he followed in the previous case the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept this Amendment.
I desire to support the Amendment. For some years I represented South Derbyshire. The name has
Devon … — — Torquay … The part of the Rural District of Newton Abbot which consists of the civil parishes of Cockington and Stokeinteignhead, the part of the Rural District of Totnes which consists of the civil parishes of Churston Ferrers, Kingswear, Marldon, and Stoke Gabriel, the Municipal Boroughs of Dartmouth and Torquay, and the Urban Districts of Brixham, Paignton, and Teignmouth.
I beg to move, in column 5, to leave out the words "and Teignmouth."
I do so for very cogent reasons, and 1 hope that my right hon. Friend will accept the Amendment. I am not for one moment unwilling to represent Teignmouth if it is decided that this should be added to my Constituency. If it is added, I shall
been associated with distinguished members who preceded the present members and other associations have grown up. Shardlow has no meaning and no historical associations. As the Southern Division now is it is extremely difficult to choose a place-name. There is the old historical name of Repton, which was the seat of a Saxon king, but that has now been put into Mid-Derbyshire. A wedge has been driven into South Derbyshire, which is divided into two parts or islands. Certainly Sharlow is an unfortunate selection, it is a district of no great associations, and not even a centre, and it is the universal desire of all parties to retain the old name.
As one of the representatives of the neighbouring borough of Derby which will absorb a portion of South Derbyshire, I would like to support the Amendment. There is no one in favour of suggesting Shardlow which connotes or denotes nothing in connection with Derbyshire. I believe the universal desire is that in this case a compass name rather than a place name should be adopted.
I accept this Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
endeavour to represent it in the same way as my hon. and gallant Friend has done for a good many years. I move this Amendment because the chamber of commerce, the town council, and the urban district councils in my Constituency all very strongly object to the inclusion of Teignmouth in the Torquay Division; it decreases the value of the vote. The borough of Torquay equally strongly objects to being included in my division— for some good reasons. They say that there is no community of interest between Torquay and Teignmouth, while, on the other hand, between Teignmouth and Newton Abbot there is the greatest community of interest. Secondly, it takes at least between forty minutes and a hour and a half to get from Teignmouth to Torquay, while we get to Newton Abbot only takes some ten to twelve minutes. Then again, if you make the journey by road from Teignmouth to Torquay, you have to pass a heavily-tolled bridge every time. The County Court centre for Teignmouth is at Newton Abbot. If Teignmouth is added to my Constituency it makes me have by far the largest population in the county of Devon. It brings me up to well-nigh 80,000 population. That means that the vote in the Torquay Division is only about three-quarters or even of less value than the vote in most of the other Devonshire constituencies. For that reason I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree to this Amendment, and will erase Teignmouth from my constituency. If Teignmouth be added to Newton Abbott, or to the Totnes Division—I do not know which name is going to be selected—[An HON. MEMBER: "Totnes!"]—if Teignmouth be added to the Totnes Division that brings the population up to just over 77,000, Those concerned urgently wish Teignmouth to be joined to the Totnes Division. Failing that, they prefer to go to the Tiverton Division. On those grounds I hope the Home Secretary wall see the validity of the argument I have adduced, and will allow Teignmouth to be added to the Totnes Division.
As a representative of that part of the country, I should like to support my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment. If I could persuade the Home Secretary to come down and spend a week-end with me in my constituency I am certain it would do him a good deal of good from a health standpoint. I should like, however, to spend a few minutes in persuading him that this scheme of putting Teignmouth into the Torquay Division is absolutely unworkable. There never has been any community of interest between Torquay and Teignmoutn. I am not, however, prepared to lay stress upon that particular point. Many people proclaim loudly that Torquay is not a patch upon Teignmouth, and some ask of what use is Torquay? I do know this, that everything is done to prevent Torquay being in a close community of interest with Teignmouth. They have a toll bridge to get across the large estuary of the Teign, and impose a toll of a shilling for every four-wheeled vehicle which crosses it, thereby cutting off free communication between Torquay and Teignmouth. If one desires to go to Torquay they have to go by Newton Abbott; Certainly the market business for Teignmouth is done at Newton Abbott. The Harbour Commissioners are elected for Teignmouth and Newton Abbott, because, of course, the estuary of the Teign runs right up to Newton Abbot. Everything connected with Teignmouth points to its being connected with the old, what I have the honour to represent, or present constituency, the Mid-Devon Division. I think it is only right that Teignmouth should have its way. It is not a party question. Liberals, Conservatives, and everybody—the town council, the district councils, and everyone connected with Teignmouth—is not at all desirous of being put into Torquay. So much do they dislike it that they would prefer, if possible or necessary, being put into Tiverton rather than remain in Torquay. I am perfectly certain of one thing, that, knowing my hon. and gallant Friend as I do, if he has the hondur to represent Torquay under the new conditions I am quite sure he will only be too pleased to have Teignmouth in that Division. That is not the point. The point is: what is going to be the smoothest working? Everyone feels convinced that, whoever represents the new Totnes Division—a very big proposition it is under this new scheme—it will be a huge district —Teignmouth does add to the extent of the district to be represented by one member. Even then I am quite prepared to ask the right hon. Gentleman to agree to this Amendment, because I am perfectly sure it is the opinion of all those concerned.
As one of the constituents of the hon. Member who has moved this Amendment, I should like to say a few words in support of it. I have a thorough acquaintance with the district, and particularly the district of Torquay. I can endorse all the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said in regard to joining Teignmouth to Torquay. There was one point, I think, which my hon. and gallant Friend did not make, and that was in regard to the increase of population. Any of us who have knowledge of Devon know this, that the Torquay constituency is increasing in population much faster than any other part of the county. If you make it such a large constituency, as it would be under the proposal of the Commissioners, before very long, it seems to me, the people will be agitating for a redistribution scheme in order that their votes may be of a more reasonable value as compared with other parts of the constituency. My main reason, however, for supporting the Resolution is to make it clear to the House and to the Home Secretary that this is no party matter—that this is a proposal which, I believe, is in the interests and for the comfort of both Teignmouth and Torquay. I hope that the Home Secretary will be able to reply affirmatively to the appeal made.
Devon … — — Totnes … The Rural District of Kingsbridge, the part of the Rural District of Newton Abbot which is not included in the Tiverton and Torquay Divisions, the part of the Rural District of Totnes which is not included in the Torquay Division, the Municipal Borough of Totnes, and the Urban Districts of Ashburton, Buckfastleigh, Kingsbridge, Newton Abbot and Salcombe.
Amendments made: In column 5, leave out the word "and" ["Newton Abbot and Salcombe"].
Gloucester … — — Cirencester The Rural Districts of Campden, Cirencester, Marston Sicca, Northleach, and Pebworth, the part of each of the Rural Districts of Faringdon, Stow-on-the-Wold, Tewkesbury, and Winchcomb which is within the Administrative County of Gloucester, the part of the Rural District of Cheltenham which consists of the civil parishes of Prestbury, Swindon, and Uckington, the Municipal Borough of Tewkesbury, and the Urban Districts of Cirencester and Stow-on-the-Wold.
I beg to move, in column 4, after the word "Cirencester," to insert the words "and Tewkesbury."
As a very junior Member of this House, I would not venture for a moment to detain the Committee at any great length, but I should like to point out, in the first place, that in the county of Gloucester we had two inquiries, and those inquiries, I think, led to a certain amount of friction, which I have endeavoured to allay as far as possible. My anxiety and the anxiety of my Constituents, is that this Bill should pass as smoothly as possible. The Home Secretary told us just now that he
Really, there is this to be said for the proposal of the Commissioners that Teignmouth, which is an urban district, could fitly be included in the Torquay Division, which is more or less urban and residential, and could not so fitly come into the more agricultural district of Totnes. As regards population, the arrangement of the Commissioners is rather better than that of the Amendment because they give a larger population to the urban division of Torquay than to the agricultural division of Totnes; therefore, I think they were justified in their proposal. But at the same time hon. Members speaking with local knowledge recommend the Amendment, which I therefore accept.
Amendment agreed to.
After the word "Salcombe," insert the words "and Teignmouth."—[ Colonel Burn. ]
objected to double names. I hope that objection does not apply to myself. I wish very much, as a citizen of Tewkesbury, that the old name of Tewkesbury should still be on the record of the Parliamentary division. I have a family reason for asking for that, as most Members know. He who was my forerunner as Member for the Tewkesbury Division was respected in this House, and his memory will always be beloved as one who paid the supreme sacrifice of his life in serving his country. The rest of my Amendments apply only to alterations of boundaries to some slight extent from what the Commissioners
"He did his best to serve nil parties in his county."
I should like to add that no flowers of any party colour are requested.
May I, the representative of Cirencester, join with the representative of Tewkesbury in saying that the united constituency, or the constituencies to be united, are unanimous with regard to this Amendment? I do not think there is any difficulty whatsoever in the way of the acceptance of this Amendment either from local, Parliamentary or traditional reasons, and I trust very much the Home Secretary will accept it.
I recognise the associations which Tewkesbury has with this House, and, as there seems to be no objection to the proposal, I readily accept it.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in column 5, to leave out the word "and" ["Cirencester and Stow-on-the-Wold."].
By the addition to the Stroud Division of several parishes from the rural division of Gloucester, the population of Stroud, I think, would be something over 78,000. To avoid that, I ask that the rural district and the urban district of Tetbury should be put in the Cirencester Division instead of the Stroud Division, as proposed by the Commissioners.
This is the first of a series of Amendments the object of which is to transfer from the Forest of Dean to the Stroud Division part of the Gloucester rural districts, and by way of compensation for that change to transfer from the Stroud Division to the Cirencester Division the urban and rural districts of Tetbury. If there is any opposition to this proposal I should like to hear of it, but, subject to that condition, personally, I see no objection to the change being made.
As one who has had a good deal of experience with the Cirencester Division, I wish to say a word or two on this question. The Cirencester Division is some sixty-five miles in length, and for the last nineteen or twenty miles of it comes the district that is known as the Tetbury district, and this Amendment refers to that district. The Stroud division and Tetbury district are somewhat different in character, and I will say no more than that, but I do say in regard to this Amendment that I have every reason to believe that the Tetbury district would prefer to be in the new Cirencester and Tewkesbury division and that the Stroud division would accept the district that is proposed to be added to it with equanimity. It is a local arrangement agreed to by the county council, and, as far as I know, outside there is no kind of opposition to this Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In column 5, at the end, insert the words "and the urban and rural districts of Tetbury within the administrative county of Gloucester";
Leave out the words "is not included in the Stroud Division," and insert instead thereof the words "consists of the civil parishes of Ashleworth, Lassington, Highnam, and Maisemore."
Leave out the words "the part of the Rural District of Tetbury which is within the Administrative County of Gloucester."
Leave out the words "the part of."
Leave out the words "of Brockworth, Matson, Prinknash Park, Upton St. Leonards, and Whaddon," and insert instead thereof the words "east of the Severn."
After the word "Nailsworth," insert the word "and."
Leave out the words "and Tetbury." —[ Mr. Hicks Beach. ]
Hants … — — New Forest and Christchurch The Rural Districts of Christ, Fordingbridge, Lymington, New Forest, Ringwood, and Romsey, and the Municipal Boroughs of Christchurch, Lymington, and Romsey.
I beg to move, in Column 4, to leave out the words "New Forest and." This has always been known as the Christchurch Division, and I hope the old historic name may be retained.
I am afraid I must strenuously oppose the alteration which is proposed in this Amendment, which proposes to alter the carefully considered decision of the Commissioners, who, after hearing representations from both political parties in the New Forest, and also from the inhabitants of Christchurch, concluded that the proper course would be to make the name of the division "New Forest," and afterwards put "Christchurch." Although Christchurch is an ancient and important borough, it is, after all, a very small part indeed of the New Forest Division, and I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will forgive me for correcting him when he says that this district is in the middle of the division.
It was.
Holland with Boston The Administrative County of The Parts of Holland One — —
I beg to move, in column 1, to leave out the words "Holland with."
The object of this Amendment is to get rid of the double-barrelled name and give the new Division the name of the Boston Division. We think that the name of Boston should be given to it as a matter of right relying on the terms of the Speaker's Conference recommendations and the report of the Commissioners, which provide that:
It is in the extreme south-west corner of the division. Die name "New Forest" is of great antiquity, and is a very well defined tract of country, known as well as any division in the country. It has been well known from time immemorial as a distinct unit, and it would be a great loss to change the name and call it "Christchurch and New Forest Division," instead of, as the Commissioners propose, the "New Forest and Christchurch Division."
The New Forest has its own individuality; its ways, and customs, and Court; and I think it is entitled to give its name to this large division. Christ-church is quite a fraction of the division, and I think they have done very well in getting their name included, although it comes second.
I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
to be called a "Parliamentary county." so Boston, according to the official mind, is not entitled to give its name to the division. Everybody took it as meaning a division of the county of Lincolnshire, and, relying on the plain words of the Instruction that where an ancient Parliamentary borough loses its representation it shall give its name to the new county division, they claim their right to give the name of Boston to this new division of the county of Lincolnshire. There is hardly a more ancient borough than Boston. It has sent members to Parliament since the reign of Edward III. and until quite recently it sent two members. At one time as a port it was second only to London, and it has only just been selected as the port at which prisoners of war are to be exchanged.
If I were addressing the American House of Representatives, I should at once have my request granted. There is no name of any town in England more beloved and revered in America than that of Boston. We are looking to our great Ally to come to our assistance. We may take it that only the best of America will come into this War, and they come from Boston, because it was the old Pilgrim Fathers who started the American nation. It would be a sad thing if at this moment we were to take away this name which means so much to America and substitute the name of Holland, which is quite un-English and of which we are not particularly proud. Boston has no desire to have Holland cemented on to it. Boston is the most important town in the whole of the division. There is no town of Holland. Nobody will go to Holland to record his vote. Boston is far and away the most important town. No other town in the division can compare with it. Several other towns in Lincolnshire, Horncastle, Gainsborough, Brigg, Louth, Stamford, and Grantham, are all nice little towns in their way, but they are nothing compared in size and importance to the town of Boston. Yet they all give their names to the county divisions, and it seems extraordinarily hard that Boston, the most important of them all and the centre of the greatest agricultural district in England, should be denied the right to give its name to the new division.
I know it is said that there may be some administrative confusion, but I am assured by the late chairman of the county council, a man who knows more about the public business of that part than anyone else, that so far from it interfering with administrative business, it will be a great help. The county council offices are in Boston, the clerk of the county council lives in Boston, and all tile business is done from Boston. Every Wednesday every farmer and his wife from the rich agricultural district around comes to Boston. They come to the town with which they are familiar. They never come to Holland, because it does not exist. It seems extraordinarily hard that they should have this double-barrelled name, of which they are not particularly proud, and which is rather un-English, thrust upon them at this particular moment, when the good old English name of Boston ought to be adopted. It would simplify matters to have a single name instead of a double-barrelled name, and if the Home Secretary would carry out this suggestion, which is earnestly desired by the people— and of the 84,000 population of the new division nearly half live in the Boston; rural area—it would give pleasure to thousands and would do no harm to anybody. Every Lincolnshire Member sup ports me in this Amendment, unless, indeed, the latest Lincolnshire Member (Major Peel), whose acquaintance I now make for the first time, is going to strike a jarring note, and thinks that the change ought to be made.
Before the official mind, on which the hon. Member who has just spoken passed a good deal of sarcasm, answers, I should like to strike that jarring note to which he has referred, in the sense of pointing out some of the difficulties in the way of the proposal he has just submitted. The ancient and honourable borough of Boston is inaugurating its electoral entry into the county of Holland. If it had been a division of a county, then it would have been in accordance with the Instruction to which the hon. Member has referred that it should have borne the name the "Boston Division of the County of Holland." But as it is the Borough of Boston, the Commissioners have quite rightly stated that it should be called the "County of Holland with Boston," thus preserving both the name of the county of Holland and also the name of Boston. Although I have been in this House only a few days, I believe I can say that it is without precedent, when a Parliamentary borough enters a Parliamentary county, that it should give its name to that county. This Amendment would go even so far as to destroy the electoral name of the "County of Holland." The hon. Member referred to Holland. We all reprobate the invasion of Belgium and I think we should all equally reprobate the destruction of Holland as is proposed in this sense. I yield to no one in my admiration for the history of Boston. The hon. Gentleman has referred to the fact that Boston is well known on the other side of the Atlantic, and that it was associated with the Declaration of Independence. I hope that as Boston grows and increases in numbers it will make a further declaration of independence, and, in course of time, become entitled to it.
Before the Home Secretary answers, may I ask him if there is any Parliamentary county of Holland? So far as I know, it does not exist at present and. will not until the Bill creates it.
I desire to support the Amendment. I have been a near neighbour of the county of Lincolnshire all my life, and know Rutland and Lincolnshire fairly equally. Lincolnshire owes no loyalty to the new county council of Holland set up by the Local Government Act. The men pride themselves on being Lincolnshire men. For historical or county reasons Holland has very little meaning. It is merely an administrative expression, set up in quite recent times. The Committee ought to know how the name of Holland came into use. The district of Holland is a marshy district, reclaimed in quite recent years on the Dutch method, a great deal of it by Dutch engineers brought over by William III. The whole of the district is quite a modern one, with no great county associations. On the other hand, Boston is a name of which all Lincolnshire men are proud, and its name ought to be attached to this division, according to the Instructions given to the Commissioners, namely, that when an old Parliamentary borough of great antiquity, long historical associations, and great renown is suppressed, its name ought to be attached to the new division. For every reason the name of Boston should be attached to the new division, which is a division of the county of Lincolnshire and not the county of Holland.
This is a question of some difficulty. The county of Lincoln has its own special characteristics, and it happens to be divided into parts or divisions each of which by itself is an administrative county. Now we are creating a Parliamentary county consisting of the Parts of Holland, being a part of the entire county of Lincoln. We are including in that Parliamentary county the old borough of Boston. The question is whether we should call the new Parliamentary county by the old name of Holland or by the name of the borough of Boston. The Commissioners have taken the course of calling it primarily by its own name—the Holland Division—and adding the name of the borough of Boston. I agree that a very delicate point has been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Boston (Mr. Dixon). He relies upon Rule 14 of the Instructions, which provides that where an ancient Parliamentary borough loses its representation the county division in which the borough becomes merged shall be named after the merged borough. Of course, the borough of Boston is not, in fact, being merged in any county division. It is being merged in a new Parliamentary county, which does not exist to-day, but is created by the Bill. It will be merged in a county and not in a county division. Therefore, technically my hon. Friend's point breaks down and we are bound to act according to reasonable lines.
The hon. and gallant Member for the Spalding Division (Major Peel), whom we welcome here as the representative of a division which will always have memories in this House, owing to the fact that it was represented for so long by his gallant predecessor, Mr. Francis Maclaren, and to whom in future years we wish all success in his membership in the House, pointed out that we are creating a constituency of what is to be called a county, the county of Holland. On the merits it would be rather unusual to call an entire county by the name of one of the boroughs or urban districts included in it. The Commissioners have recommended that the county be called the county of Holland with Boston. If you look at the map it is rather difficult to resist the conclusion that on the merits it is a reasonable proposal to make to give the name of the county as a whole and to add the name of the principal borough to it. There is no mention of Spalding and other places of importance which are also included. The Commissioners have come to what is a fair solution of a difficult question, and I have great difficulty In face of the opposition that has been expressed, in asking the Committee to depart from their decision.
I would appeal to the Home Secretary to take this opportunity of wiping out the name of Holland, which has no relation to anything in connection with English soil. The time has come when we ought to reconsider our position as far as that matter is concerned. Inasmuch as the name was introduced as the result of the work of Dutch engineers under William III., we have gone very far towards extinguishing any debt we owe to William III. and his Dutch supporters. This Parliamentary county at present is merely an administrative area which, no doubt, was created in the general rush which occurred after the passing of the Local Government Act, 1888, when the new machinery of the county councils was introduced. Now there is a substantial reason for Anglicising the whole of our soil and for cutting away a name abso- lutely foreign to our country. I make no reflection upon the nation named. They have a great many difficulties, but we have greater. At any rate, we owe them no such great debt of gratitude as to sink a name revered in English history in order to put in a name which probably crept in
Kent … … — — Canterbury The Rural Districts of Bridge and Elham, the Rural District of Blean (with the detached parts of the civil parishes of Dunkirk and Hernhill which are wholly surrounded by that Rural District), the County Borough of Canterbury, and the Urban Districts of Herne Bay and Whitstable.
I beg to move, in column 5, after the word "Bridge," to insert the word "Eastry."
This Amendment affects two Kent divisions, Canterury and Dover. The matter is not one of very great importance, but I am sure the alteration is one which would meet the wishes of those who live on the spot. At the inquiry held in Kent in connection with the question Dover was represented very ably by counsel, who put forward their case at great length, and especially asked that Eastry should not be included with Dover. There is no connection between Dover and Eastry, and the people of Dover desire by every means in their power to keep Eastry out. Dover, without Eastry, has nearly sufficient population to entitle it to be a separate constituency, and as it is an increasing place it will very soon undoubtedly have the full population needed for that purpose. Eastry has always belonged to Canterbury, its inhabitants go there marketing, they trade there, and their communications are all that way. They would prefer to go to Canterbury rather than to Dover. It is an important agricultural district, tempered slightly by the mining influence. It is undoubtedly largely agricultural, and it would be very inconvenient for some of the population to go to Dover, as most of it lies much more handy and accessible to Canterbury. By putting Eastry into Canterbury you would also preserve more or less the old county division. Canterbury, unfortunately, is now to fall into a county division and to lose its identity. I think we all feel sorry that that should be so, but, still, its name will be given to the new division. No doubt by adding Eastry it will make the population rather large, but the change will be one in accord with the desires of the agricultural population of the old St. Augustine Divi-
under the Local Government Act and which the Government ought to cut out even if they substitute another inferior name for it. It is a matter that ought to be reconsidered, even if it has to be done on the Report stage.
Amendment negatived.
sion. If any exception is taken on the ground of population I may point out to the right hon. Gentleman that the very next division—the Isle of Thanet—has a larger population than the new division will have even with the addition of Eastry. I do not know what it is necessary for me to labour the point. If the right hon. Gentleman does not feel able to deal with it to-day, or if he desires to have further information as to opinion in the division, I will certanly bring the matter up on Report, but I submit that the change would be an advantage, it would be welcomed by the people, and would more associate itself with the traditions of the district.
10.0 P.M.
I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman has moved this Amendment. This matter was fairly well fought out before the Boundary Commissioners by the representatives of both Dover and Canterbury. It is quite true that nobody wanted Eastry. Dover wanted to get rid of it, and Canterbury did not desire to receive it.
I think that is hardly accurate. Canterbury town objected to Eastry, but not the whole district.
The effect of the Amendment would be to make the two constituencies very variable both in population and in electorate. My right hon. Friend says that Canterbury is mainly an agricultural constituency; it has an area of 242 square miles and a population of 80,815. Dover is a commercial centre with an area of 49 square miles and a population of 60,852. I quite admit there are some arguments in favour of my hon. Friend's case, but the Committee did weigh the argu- ments fairly as between his proposal and the proposal of the Boundary Commissioners, and they came to the conclusion that the Commissioners had adopted the right course. I hope, under the circum-
Parts of Kesteven, and Rutland The Administrative County of The Parts of Kesteven (exclusive of the part thereof comprised in the Parliamentary Borough of Lincoln) and the Administrative County of Rutland Two Grantham … The Rural Districts of Branston, Claypole, and Sleaford, the part of the Rural District of Grantham which consists of the civil parishes of Ancaster, Barrowby, Belton, Carlton Scroop, Great Gonerby, Harrowby Without, Heydour, Honington, Hough-on-the-Hill, Londonthorpe, Manthorpe, Normanton, Welby, and the detached part of the civil parish of Spittlegate Without which is wholly surrounded by the Municipal Borough of Grantham, and the Urban Districts of Ruskington and Sleaford. Rutland and Stamford The whole of the Administrative County Stamford of Rutland, the Rural Districts of Bourne and Uffington, the part of the Rural District of Grantham which is not included in the Grantham Division, the Municipal Borough of Stamford, and the Urban District of Bourne.
I beg to move, in column 1, to leave out the word "Rutland."
The proposal which I am now making is one of some importance for it raises a question of principle. The Government propose on the advice of the Boundary Commissioners to entirely eliminate the county of Rutland as a separate Parliamentary constituency and to attach it to a part of Lincolnshire. There is only one similar case south of the Border between this country and Scotland, but in Wales the proposal is made to suppress the county of Radnorshire. The case of Rutland is in some respects even worse than that of Radnorshire, because the Division of Lincolnshire to which it is proposed to attach the county of Rutland will overwhelm that county in size so that only the Parliamentary records of the county will remain. I will not trouble the House with a long historical survey of the county of Rutland, but I may mention that the Parliamentary representation of Rutland is no new thing. Rutland sent Members to Parliament in 1265, and since 1295 there has been an uninterrupted succession of members sent by it to the Parliament of this Kingdom. It had two members till 1885, but since then it has only had one member. It is a very drastic proposal indeed to eliminate and destroy the Parliamentary representation of a whole county, but that is the proposal
stances, the decision of the Boundary Commissioners will be accepted by this Committee.
Amendment negatived.
of the Boundary Commissioners. The county is thoroughly organised like any other county, and it has its county council and its machinery for local government. It is a separate entity to be swallowed up in its larger neighbour, Lincolnshire. I do not complain, nor does the county of Rutland complain, that if this fate is to be imposed upon it by Parliament Lincolnshire should be the county to which Rutland is to be attached. On the whole, I think the choice of Lincolnshire is a right one. There is an alternative, the county of Leicester, but the general interest of Rutland lies more towards Lincoln than it has in recent years towards Leicester. I am not, however, quarrelling with that aspect of the case, but with the principle. The principle is based on the population of the county of Rutland, but unfortunately the principle of this Bill is to count accurately the number of electors. The county of Rutland has not, unfortunately, a population of more than 21,000, and is on the same footing as Radnorshire, which has a very similar population. I am appealing to the House of Commons seriously to weigh the argument against suppressing the Parliamentary representation of the whole county, not because I happen to have the honour to represent this distinguished county, but because of the great injustice that is being done to a very ancient local organisation, an injustice which is quite unique, and which can only be paralleled in the similar injustice to a whole county in the case of Wales.
There is one consideration in addition which I would urge. There are constantly being complaints made in this House—and I think rightly and justly—that one of the great evils and disadvantages of the present proposals is that they are going seriously to damage the agricultural representation in this House. Rutland is an entirely agricultural county, and it is with the utmost regret that representatives of agriculture throughout the United Kingdom will see the seat swept away in consequence of the very drastic proposals in the Schedule. It is no consolation to agriculturists to say that they are receiving sympathetic consideration from the members who are sent from urban communities. Agriculturists, after all, know their own business, and they want to be represented by men who do know the business in which they are engaged. They are more confirmed in that desire by reading the speeches very often made in this House by gentlemen who come from urban communities, who take a great interest in agricultural affairs, but who, unfortunately, know nothing about it. It is very easy to get hold of a book, or pamphlet, or some speech on these agricultural matters. Agriculturists know very well that there is more in agriculture than can be written down in books, and they want to be represented by men in whom they have confidence—men engaged in the same pursuits as themselves—who understand the difficulties and the business in which they are engaged. I do not want to detain the Committee on this matter, but it is right, and I think the Committee will agree that this case should be brought forward. I appeal to them to give it every consideration, and to pause seriously before they eliminate the representation of an ancient county and do an act which is unique in the whole of the proposals of this Bill. If it is decided that Rutland must go, although all the representatives of the local bodies have protested, we shall have to accept that decision, and we shall do our best in being attached to the county of Lincolnshire. After all, Rutland has a very strong local feeling. It has a long and ancient history of some distinction, and we naturally desire to be allowed to continue our identity and to send, as we have done, a Parliamentary representative to this House.
I represent the county of Radnor, which is the only other county in England and Wales, with the county of Rutland, which will totally lose its representation under this Bill, and I think it will be convenient that in supporting the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Gretton) I should state the case also for Radnorshire. I am very much in the same position as my hon. and gallant Friend. The opposition to the change is very marked in the county, and has been expressed by the county council and the Unionist party in Radnorshire. There is a feeling that the division ought not to take place. Of course, I know very well that the population of Radnorshire does not entitle it to separate representation. There is a great disparity between the population of Radnorshire and the 50,000 which is stipulated in the Bill as entitling any constituency to separate representation; but in spite of that, anyone who looks at the Schedule will find that while it would be an anomaly to give separate representation to a 20,000 population, there are disparities and differences of far greater extent than would exist if the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend and that for Radnorshire were accepted. The county of Merionethshire has 35,000, and has one representative. On the other hand, the county of Flint has a population of 95,500—more than twice that of Merionethshire. That also has one representative. There is, as I say, therefore, a far greater disparity in the Schedule between Merioneth and Flint than there would be between Radnorshire and Merionethshire if the Home Secretary were to accept my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment and that for Radnorshire. I, like my hon. and gallant Friend, appeal to the Home Secretary and the Committee on sentimental grounds. Radnorshire is an old and ancient administrative county. It has not existed so long as Rutland, but since 1541 it has been represented in this House, and it seems to me to be a pity to destroy such an honourable and long-existing association as that when the two counties of Rutland and Radnor are the only counties sacrificed if that takes place. Radnorshire is purely an agricultural county. There is no other interest there at all. A great deal has been said this afternoon as to agriculture on the whole suffering badly under this Bill, and this is an opportunity for doing justice to it. After all, agriculture is the greatest single industry in this country, and the Government is at present engaged in making a very strong and earnest appeal to that industry to do all in its power to help the country at the present time. There is no doubt that agriculture is responding very splendidly to that appeal, and it seems a poor way of encouraging that appeal that agriculture should lose a large amount of its representation in this House, as it will do if Rutland and Radnorshire cease to have representatives. It seems to me that there are two facts which make it easier for the Home Secretary to accept the Amendment. One is that the addition which will be made to the numbers in the House will be very small. There will be only two members added. I plead for Radnorshire, but you cannot give a member to Radnor, as you ought to do, without giving one also to Rutland. Also I think accepting this Amendment would not form any precedent which other Amendments could appeal to because the cases of Rutland and Radnor are perfectly unique. The number entitling a constituency to representation is about 68,000 in English counties. If you applied that to Wales she would be entitled to twenty-five members. Under the Bill Wales gets twenty-four. In accepting these two Amendments, because they stand or fall together, the Home Secretary would be doing an act of justice at one and the same time to Wales and to the agricultural interest.
No one can complain that this point has been brought forward. It is a strong thing that a country which hitherto has had separate representation should no longer have its own member, but should be asked to combine with part of an adjoining county. Of course the foundation of it all is the Instruction deliberately adopted by the House some time ago which provides that a county or borough whose population is less than 50,000 shall cease to have separate representation. The Commissioners, of course, could not do otherwise than follow that direction. The county of Rutland has a population of 20,505, and Radnor 22,416, not half the amount entitling them to separate representation. So unless the House is prepared to go back on the original Instructions given months ago it is impossible to accept either Amendment. As framed, this Amendment would add another member to the House, as you would still have two members for the two counties combined. The Amendment, therefore, as framed does not give full effect to the decision of the House. Really, if you carried out the proposal, you would not increase the representation of agriculture, because you would still have two members for two divisions which are in the main both agricultural, only you would be giving one of the members to an area which has only 20,000 population and the other to an area of 110,000. No one disputes the proposition that if you are to combine Rutland with any other area the right course is to add it to this particular part of Lincolnshire. Therefore, unless the Committee is prepared to depart from the precedent already laid down, I cannot accept the Amendment. I am sorry. One does not like to see a county with a history like that of Rutland combined with another area. I think, however, that Rutland will have a very strong voice, indeed, in the new division, and I am sure that they will not have the least cause to be dissatisfied with their representation.
I regret the reply of the Home Secretary, but I do not think that the tone of his reply indicated that the decision of the Government was absolutely final upon this point. Undoubtedly this is an important matter. I do not think these are the circumstances when we are bound to carry out precisely the Instructions given to the Commissioners. An exception has already been made with regard to the City of London.
That was in the Instructions.
There was a later Instruction given by this House to the Commissioners that they were to have regard not only to the question of population, but to the consideration of area. I do feel that it is an unfortunate thing that the only two counties in England and Wales which are obliterated by this scheme are the counties of Rutland and Radnorshire. There are surely grounds here for exceptional treatment. Upon the main ground that it is important we shall have regard to the dwindling weight of agricultural representation in this House, I would appeal to the Government, if they cannot accept this Amendment, that they should at all events allow the Committee to vote upon this point as the Committee think fit.
Already this afternoon the Committee, without any protest from the hon. Members who have just been speaking in such a tone about the wrongs that we are putting upon Rutland and Radnorshire, have destroyed the representation of at least two Scottish counties. I give the hon. Members fair warning that if the Government do give way on this question Scotland will certainly have a good deal to say on the Report stage in regard to the way in which the agricultural counties in South Scotland have been treated by the Committee.
As the representative of the borough neighbouring on Rutland 1 endorse entirely what was said by the
Division No. 106.] AYES. [10.25 p.m. Agnew, Sir George William Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs., Leek) Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Fletcher, John Samuel Pease, Rt. Hon. H. Pike (Darlington) Anderson, W. C. Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. Archdale, Lieut. E. M. Greig, Colonel J. W. Perkins, Walter Frank Ashley, Wilfrid W. Guest, Capt. Hon. Fred. E. (Dorset, E.) Peto, Basil Edward Baird, John Lawrence Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Baldwin, Stanley Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Pringle, William M. R. Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N. Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Barnett, Captain R. W. Haslam, Lewis Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Barnston, Capt. Harry Helme, Sir Norval Watson Rowlands, James Bathurst, Col. Hen. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Higham, John Sharp Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen) Beale, Sir William Phipson Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Beck, Arthur Cecil Holt, Richard Durning Samuels, Arthur W. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Bentham, George Jackson Jonse, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Spear, Sir John Ward Brace, Rt. Hon. William Jowett, Frederick William Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A. H. (Asht'n-u-Lyne) Bridgeman, William Clive King, Joseph Stewart, Gershom Brunner, John F. L. Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Talbot, Lord Edmund Bryce, John Annan Larmor, Sir J. Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Campion, Lieut.-Col. W. R. Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Touche, Sir George Alexander Cautley, Henry Strother Levy, Sir Maurice Turton, Edmund Russborough Cave Rt. Hon. Sir George Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Clough, William Mackinder, Halford J. Wardle, George J. Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Macpherson, James Ian Watt, Henry A. Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Marshall, Arthur Harold Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Mason, David M. (Coventry) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.) Courthope, Major George Loyd Millar, James Duncan Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Currie, George W. Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Wing, Thomas Edward Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Norman, Sir Henry Wood, John (Stalybridge) Denniss, E. R. B. Nuttall, Harry Falconer, James Parrott, Sir Edward TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—Mr. J. Hope and Mr. Pratt.—Mr. J. Hope and Mr. Pratt Finney, Samuel Partington, Hon. Oswald Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Hogge, James Myles Robinson, Sidney Boyton, James Ingleby, Holcombe Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. Henry Craik, Sir Henry Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Davies, Ellis William (Eiflon) Nield, Herbert Yate, Colonel Charles Edward Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Randles, Sir John S. Dixon, Charles Harvey Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—Colonel Gretton and Sir Francis Edwards..—Colonel Gretton and Sir Francis Edwards. Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E. Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arton) Hinds, John Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
hon. Member (Colonel Gretton), and I wish to join in the appeal made by the hon. Member (Sir H. Roberts) to the Home Secretary, that a special case can be made out for these two counties. I can well understand that there is a strong feeling when a county is entirely extinguished as an independent Parliamentary unit, and I think this is a time when an exception ought to be made. I trust that, whatever action is taken, whether we go to a Division or not, at any rate this matter will receive further consideration at the hands of the Home Secretary.
Question put, "That the word 'Rutland' stand part of the Schedule."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 103; Noes, 23.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the words "Rutland and Stamford," and to insert instead thereof the words "Stamford and Rutland."
In the absence of the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Willoughby), I have been asked to move this Amendment by the mayor, aldermen, and burgesses of the borough of Stamford and as representing the non-county. I would call attention to the fact that this is not a matter of the division of constituencies, but rather the placing of the names. I have only to mention the great historical interest associated with the borough of Stamford, seeing that it has been a municipal borough since the year 972. For nearly 700 years it had direct representation in this House. It has gradually suffered in the extent of its representation in that now it has lost its representation as a borough, and has been the head of a division of the county of Lincoln. Now that the Committee has to decide whether or not Rutland should be associated with it, it is desired to press the claim of Stamford that the order of the names should be "Stamford and Rutland" and not "Rutland and Stamford." Rutland at the present time has only 4,128 voters, while the Stamford Division has over 10,000 voters. It may be asked, "What's in a name?" but there is an earnest wish that for the convenience of the public the polling should take place at Stamford where the roads converge.
Lancaster … — — Darwen … The Rural District of Blackburn, the Municipal Borough of Darwen, and the Urban District of Turton.
I beg to move, in column 5, to leave out the word "District," and to insert instead thereof the word, "Districts."
This Amendment is the first of a number intended to carry one step further the Amendments which are on the Schedule before the House. I hope to show that they are reasonable and that they will be a better basis of population. The Division of Darwen has been very severely broken up. Under the original scheme the Urban District of Tottington, with a population of something like seven or eight thousand, was intended to be placed in the Darwen Division. It would have been most inconvenient to work from Darwen, and it would have made the population of the Darwen Division 71,000. That urban
This point has been already twice raised, and it has been clearly pointed out that the order of the names has no relevance to the matter, and it must be brought forward on the Report stage in another form.
I will content myself by repeating that the desire of the burgesses of Stamford is that consideration should be given in this matter to the antiquity of the place which has been represented for so many centuries, and also that it is so much larger than the small adjoining county of Rutland.
The decision has already been taken that Rutland is to lose its separate representation, and the small satisfaction of retaining the name of Rutland to denominate the division is now desired to be taken away. I hope that the Members of the House will not accept this proposal, but decide that Rutland should retain its name on the roll of Parliament.
This would really be the last straw. Rutland is a county and Stamford a borough. Rutland is being combined with the borough of Stamford and other parts of the county of Lincolnshire. I do think Rutland ought to retain its name.
With that expression of opinion I am sure the inhabitants of Stamford will be quite willing to agree, and I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
district appealed before the Commissioners, and showed successfully that it ought to be connected with Bury, and the Commissioners in their Report took it out of Darwen and attached it to Bury, thereby reducing the population of the Darwen Division to 63,323. But they appear to have made no attempt to make up the population, which I think they might very well have done, as I propose in these Amendments. The population of the Fylde Division is 78,408, and I think it is increasing. This rearrangement has been done at the expense of the Darwen Division. In the original scheme, Fleetwood, with a population of 16,828, was included in the Lancaster Division. It was obvious that the Commissioners had to come to the south of the Ribble to make up the popu- lation of the Fylde Division. In the amended scheme of the Commissioners they take out from the Lancaster Division the Fleetwood population of 16,828, and they place it in the Fylde Division; that did not replace these three places with a population of something like 13,000 in the Darwen Division, which these Amendments propose to do They still retain them in the Fylde Division, and leave in the Darwen Division the Fylde Division of 78,000. If the population of these three divisions were put into the Darwen they would make a population for that place of 76,795, and Fylde would have 65,018.
The Fylde Division of Lancashire is a most important agricultural division. The predominating feature of the Darwen Division is cotton. Walton-le-Dale, which is proposed to be included in the Darwen Division, is cotton entirely and absolutely. Walton-le-Dale Division has been in the Darwen Division for over thirty-two years. If the Home Secretary would only kindly look at the map he would find that the River Ribble is an exceedingly good boundary line; also that Walton-le-Dale is separated from the Fylde Division by a tidal river which would make an exceedingly good boundary line. I have every reason to believe that they want to remain in the Darwen Division, and I can say quite clearly and sincerely that it would be much more convenient to work from the south side of the Ribble than from the north side of the Ribble. I think I have shown that those districts ought to remain in the Darwen Division, and I hope the Home Secretary will see his way to accept my Amendment.
I hope the Committee will not accept the Amendment. The attitude I have always taken up is that it is much better for everybody connected with the district to go before the Commissioners who are specially selected as people of fair judgment and independence, and we should accept the decision of the Commissioners. Therefore, I do hope the
Middlesex … — — Brentford The Urban Districts of Brentford and Chiswick.
I beg to move, in column 4, after the word "Brentford," to insert the words "and Chiswick."
The reason for this Amendment is that the Boundary Commissioners in framing their original scheme did in fact propose to call it the Chiswick Division, and it
Committee will adhere to the decisions which were come to by the Commissioners after a very full and free hearing of all the various cases which were put forward. The constituents of the hon. Gentleman had every opportunity of laying their case before the Commissioners, who, I am sure, took into consideration every argument the hon. Gentleman has just adduced.
I hope the Committee will think twice before they accept the Amendment. It is notorious to everybody that in the Darwen Division the majority on one side or the other is a very near thing, and at election after election it is touch and go which party wins the election. This question therefore may be of vital importance to the representation of a division. I submit under those circumstances it is eminently desirable that we should leave those matters to the impartial decision of the Commissioners and not change the decision of the Commissioners in consequence of an ex parte statement by the hon. Gentleman.
I rather take exception to the hon. Gentleman saying that I made an ex parte statement. My argument was based on population. The population of Fylde was 78,480 and that of Blackpool 84,476. There is no sense in it.
Obviously, it is rather a difficult point. I should certainly not consider any arguments but those of convenience in regard to representation. I think the hon. Member for the Darwen Division made a strong case, but I cannot accept his Amendment to-day. If, however, he will withdraw it I will look into it and see whether it is possible to meet the point. I am not able to make up my mind to-day, but I should like an opportunity to reconsider the matter.
After the explanation of the Home Secretary, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
was only when pressure was put upon them by a truculent section, which is never lacking in Brentford. Chiswick urban district is one of the two parts of this division, with a population of 41,000, and a rateable value of £282,000, as contrasted with Brentford, which has a population of 16,000 and a rateable value of £110,000. Chiswick, which is to be taken from my division, has also an undeveloped area of 503 acres, besides a residential neighbourhood of an attractive character. It has a claim to consideration, from the historical point of view, that equals anything Brentford can advance. Still standing in Chiswick, adjoining the Home Secretary's own division, is an historic house, and the right hon. Gentleman knows the glades where Pope used to walk in the days of old. Hogarth, too, lived near, and though I never professed to be an admirer of Hogarth's drawings, yet I submit that these historic associations should not be eliminated from the consideration of this matter. It has twice the claim, and the Commissioners have only succumbed to the clamour made by these denizens of Brentford and neighbourhood, and anybody who
Norfolk … — — King's Lynn The Rural Districts of Docking, Freebridge Lynn, King's Lynn, and Marshland, the Municipal Borough of King's Lynn, and the Urban Districts of New Hunstanton and Walsoken.
I beg to move, in column 5, after the word "Marshland," to insert the words "(except the civil parishes of Outwell and Upwell), the part of the Rural District of Downham which consists of the civil parishes of Wiggenhall St. Germans, Wiggenhall St. Mary the Virgin, Wiggenhall St. Mary Magdalen, and Wiggenhall St. Peter."
There are two other consequential Amendments. The three are moved entirely for the purpose of removing certain difficulties and inconveniences that have
Norfolk ‖ — — South-Western The Rural Districts of Downham, Mitford and Launditch, and Swaffham, the part of the Rural District of Thetford which consists of the civil parishes of Cranwich, Feltwell, Feltwell Anchor, Hockwold-cum-Wilton, Lyn-ford, Methwold, Mundford, Northwold, Santon, Weeting with Bromehill, and West Tofts, the Municipal Borough of Thetford, and the Urban Districts of Downham Market, East Dereham, and Swaffham.
Amendments made: In column 5, leave out the words "of Downham."
After the word "Swaffham" insert the words "the part of the rural district of
goes down the High. Street there may know what to expect from Brentford. That is the reason why I ask the Home Secretary to consider this. We have had the double name over and over again to-night, and I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give Chiswick an opportunity of associating their name with the new Parliamentary division. I am quite sure I have justice on my side, particularly as the Commissioners put this name in before they were intimidated, and I think that is the strongest possible reason why this Amendment should be accepted.
With regard to what has been said about my own division, we look upon Brentford as the place where we get the smoke from. I accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
been created by the Commissioners adhering so closely to the administrative areas in that part of Norfolk. I understand that the Amendments are to be accepted, and I may say that the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk approves of them, as also do the Commissioners.
The hon. Member for South-West Norfolk, who is also concerned in this Amendment, agrees, and as the alteration would make a better boundary we are prepared to accept it.
Amendment agreed to.
Downham which is not included in the King's Lynn Division, the part of the rural district of Marshland which consists of the civil parishes of Outwell and Upwell."—[ Mr. Ingleby. ]
Oxford … — — Woodstock The Rural Districts of Banbury, Chipping Norton, Witney, and Woodstock, the Municipal Boroughs of Banbury, Chipping Norton, and Woodstock, and the Urban District of Witney.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the word "Woodstock," and to insert instead thereof the word "Banbury."
I should like to point out that the present divisions of the county of Oxford are the Northern, or Banbury Division, the Mid, or Woodstock Division, and the Henley Division. It is proposed by the Bill to alter this. The present Northern Division of Oxfordshire contains Banbury without a place called Grimsbury, which is part of the municipal borough of Banbury, and is part of Northamptonshire, and which is now to be included in the new division. It is proposed in the Bill that the two divisions should be called the Woodstock and the Henley Division, the Woodstock Division to consist of the rural districts of Banbury, Chipping Norton, Witney and Woodstock, and the municipal boroughs of Banbury, Chipping Norton, and Woodstock, and the urban district of Witney. The old northern division or Banbury Division remains intact, but into it is brought a considerable portion of what has hitherto been known as Mid-Oxfordshire, or Woodstock. Grimsbury, which is part of the municipal borough of Banbury, and is in South Northamptonshire, and which is now to be brought in, brings in something like 500 voters. My reasons for urging the claims of the borough of Banbury are in no sense political or Parliamentary. I happen to be the Recorder of the borough. Banbury, as far as size is concerned, has a much larger claim than Woodstock to give its name to the division. With regard to antiquity, of which we have heard a great deal to-day, there is no difference between them. Woodstock returned a member to this House in 1554, and Banbury returned one in 1553. In 1885 both these Parliamentary boroughs—as they were then—Woodstock and Banbury, lost their representation, and went into the Northern and Woodstock Divisions respectively. Historically, therefore, there is no distinction to be drawn. The population of Banbury at present is 13,465, and is increasing. The population of Woodstock is 1,594, and cannot be said to be increasing. I hope it will not for one moment be thought that Banbury, either individually or collectively, is in any way hostile to the borough of Woodstock, but from the point of view of population and trade Banbury certainly has a much larger claim.
It being Eleven of the Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Business of the House
May I ask the Home Secretary if it is understood that the Representation of the People Bill will be the first Order to-morrow?
Yes; that is so.
And then the Coal Mines Control Agreement (Confirmation) Bill?
Yes; that is so.
Dr. Markel
After Question Time to-day the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir R. Cooper) made, by way of a personal explanation, a reference to a matter which we discussed in this House on Wednesday last. It is one of the unfortunate parts of this method of proceeding by personal explanation that only one party has a say, and I was unable to add anything to what he then said. I take this opportunity of asserting again what I asserted last Wednesday, that the attack on Dr. Markel by a gentleman who knew nothing about him, and who by his personal statement to-day admitted that he knew less than I imagined he knew about him, is a very peculiar and a not at all creditable affair. I welcome, of course, the candid statement of the hon. Member for Walsall that he was ignorant of things which I assumed he must have known, but nothing that I said last Wednesday is to be retracted in the slightest degree. I have only to assert again what I believe the Home Secretary will agree with, that those who know the case of Dr. Markel feel that to say that this man, who has done such wonderful service before the War and since the War to our country, ought to be interned, is indeed a strange proceeding.
I do not know that I am to be taken to agree with the speech just made. If so, I must say that I do not assent to it. I have no reason for taking up the case of the hon. Member for Walsall, but I regret that, after the very frank statement he made this afternoon, the matter should have been revived. I am quite sure we all accepted his statement as putting an end to the matter.
By leave of the House, may I say that I rose to accept his statement. If the Home Secretary had listened to me he would have known that I fully accepted it. I only wish it to be understood that I made no misstatement.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Fire minutes after Eleven o'clock.