House of Commons
Thursday, November 8, 1917
DUTCH TRANSIT TRAFFIC (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 17, 1917)
Copy presented of Correspondence respecting the Transit Traffic across Holland of materials susceptible of employment as military supplies [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Civil Services (Supplementary Estimate, 1917–18)
Estimate presented of the further Sum required to be voted for the service of the year ending 31st March, 1918 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 154.]
Supreme Court of Judicature
Account presented of Receipts and Expenditure of the Paymaster-General on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature in respect of the Funds of Suitors of the Court in the year ended 28th February, 1917, and Account of the National Debt Commissioners for the same period in respect of Funds held by them on behalf of the Supreme Court of Judicature, with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 155.]
Air Force Act
Copy presented of an Act to provide for the discipline and regulation of the Air Force, being the Army Act modified in accordance with the provisions of the Air Force Constitution Bill [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Irish Universities Act, 1908
Copy presented of Statute IX. of the National University of Ireland [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Colonial Reports (Annual)
Copy presented of Colonial Report, No. 939 (Sierra Leone, Report for 1916) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Places of Worship, Etc. (Grants of Land)
Return ordered, "showing what Grants have been made by the Ministry of Munitions since the 4th day of August, 1914, of ( a ) sites of land on which churches or other places of worship were to be erected for sailors, soldiers, and munition workers; ( b ) money contributions in connection with these sites or other places of worship; ( c ) sites and money contributions for schools, clubs, institutes, and recreation rooms; ( d ) sites, buildings, and money for Young Men's Christian Association huts, buildings, premises, and work; with any details in each case."—[ Mr. King. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Sir Francis Oppenheimer
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Sir Francis Oppenheimer, the British commercial attaché at The Hague, recommended, at the end of June last, the delivery of a quantity of tanning material to the Nederlansche Stoomlederfabrick at Reijen, in Holland; whether His British Majesty's Consul-General at Rotterdam disapproved in his reports to His Majesty's Government of such delivery; whether several members of the firm in question are recently-naturalised Belgian subjects of German origin; whether the works manager of the firm, named Thoman, is an unnaturalised German; whether His Majesty's Government are aware that the firm's interests in England are represented by Messrs. Oppenheimer, Blandford, and Company, of 10, Copthall Avenue; whether His Majesty's Government is aware of the close relationship existing between the commercial attaché at The Hague and Mr. Albert M. Oppenheimer, of Oppenheimer, Blandford, and Company; and whether His Majesty's Government will take steps in the national interests to prevent advice concerning deliveries to a neutral firm largely of enemy origin being made by one whose near relative represents the interests of such firm in England?
This question makes a number of insinuations under cover of Parliamentary privilege against a public official who has served this country during the War with the greatest efficiency and public spirit. Before replying to the question I must ask my hon. and gallant Friend to state plainly whether he desire to make any charge against Sir Francis Oppenheimer, and, if so, what it is?
May I ask whether, in view of the fact that the Foreign Office made such a hideous mistake about King Constantine, is it not possible they have made a mistake in this case?
The Foreign Office, like every human institution, is liable to error, and if my hon. and gallant Friend desires to make any definite charge against any official working under the Foreign Office I shall always be ready to investigate it; but I do protest against questions being put on the Paper which, without making a definite charge, make insinuations which are very unfair to the person concerned.
Elections (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether any elections, municipal or otherwise, will be held in Ireland under the provisions of the Local Government Act (Ireland) of 1908 during the coming year (1918), as, owing to the postponement of those elections during this year, there is a doubt in the minds of many people as to whether those elections will be held or not during next year; and if he will make it clear as to what course the Government intend to pursue in this matter?
An announcement on this subject will be made in the course of the coming week.
Will the announcement be made in this House?
Certainly.
If I put down a question for next week will the right hon. Gentleman then make an announcement?
Certainly.
I will put it down for Thursday next.
Agricultural and Technical Instruction Staff, Ireland
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to a letter regarding the war bonus for their staff received by the county Dublin committees of agriculture and technical instruction from the Agricultural Department (Ireland), intimating that the Treasury have refused the Department's application for a Grant to meet such war bonus; whether a similar letter has been addressed to the other agricultural and technical instruction committees in Ireland; whether he is aware that the Department has been compelled to sell a portion of the invested capital of its endowment fund at a loss, and that this means a reduction in the help which this Department has been giving to various local schemes hitherto deemed necessary objects of financial assistance; if so, will he say who is responsible for the action of the Treasury; and why the Treasury refused to provide the war bonus for the persons employed under the Government Department in question for whom it has admitted that such a bonus ought to be provided?
My attention has been called by the hon. Member's question to the issue of the letter referred to, which I learn has been sent to agricultural and technical instruction committees generally. The action in question is that of His Majesty's Government, who are, of course, responsible to Parliament in the matter.
Education (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he was in a position to say what steps are being taken to ensure that Ireland shall receive a full equivalent for any additional public money expended on primary education in Great Britain?
asked whether the new Grant for Irish primary education has been fixed at £384,000 for this year only; and will it be increased next year, or later, in proportion to any increases that may be made in Grants for English primary education?
In the event of future increased Grants for primary education, I have no doubt the claims of Ireland will be fully considered. It is impossible to say what action will be taken until the contingent event occurs. The present new Grant is in the same position as other annual Parliamentary Grants from the Exchequer, except that there has been, as I stated to the House some time since, a promise that any Grant unspent in this year shall be available to meet the growing demands of the scheme of progressive increases of salaries by reason of the nature of the Irish educational system, which I explained to the House.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state definitely, therefore, that the equivalent Grant, as we understand it in Ireland, given in consequence of the Grant for education in England is going to be given immediately?
The scheme, as I explained to the House, was based upon it, the Grant has been sanctioned by the House, and the only reservation is that which I mentioned, which secured for Irish education, owing to the characteristics of the system, the retention of provision for increments which could not otherwise be provided for.
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he has received a copy of the resolution calling on the Government to provide additional funds for technical education in Ireland which was passed at a public meeting held in the City Hall, Cork, on 31st October; and if he will state when effect will be given to the claims therein made?
I have received a copy of the resolution referred to. As I stated on the 25th October, in reply to questions by the hon. Members for South Kerry, St. Stephen's Green and South County Dublin, proposals for the further development of technical education in Ireland are at present being considered..
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the statement of Dr. Starkie, Resident Commissioner of National Education, referring to the recent Grant voted for Irish primary education, that all the £384,000 could not be expended this year as that would not allow for the increments accruing next year to be met, and that some of it has to be kept back each year to meet the increased amount each following year according as the increments increase; whether he is aware that the amount proposed to be so withheld is £150,000; whether Dr. Starkie had the authority of the Treasury or the Irish Government for making this statement; if so, is there any precedent for holding over a considerable sum of money voted in one financial year in order that the necessities of a future financial year may thus be met; whether any of the money now voted for primary education in England and Scotland is to be similarly held over in order to meet increasing expenditure within the next few years, or whether it is proposed to meet this increased expenditure by increased Grants; whether it is the intention of the Irish Government or the Treasury to make use of any portion of the Grant of £384,000 in order to pay teachers a share of the Birrell Grant before 1st April, 1918; and, if not, will he say how he proposes to incorporate in the new salaries to be paid to teachers as from 1st April, 1917, their share of the Birrell Grant, seeing that this Grant will not ordinarily be available until the next financial year?
I cannot discuss the operations of the intended new schemes of teachers' salaries by way of question and answer, and, as I have informed the House, some minor questions involved in it are still the subject of inter-Departmental discussion.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when we shall have an opportunity of discussing it otherwise than by question and answer?
The matter has been delayed only by some minor questions. The Paper will be put upon the Table and hon. Members can consider it.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Paper will be laid on the Table next week, or will notice be given to hon. Members when it will be laid?
It will be laid in the ordinary way as soon as possible.
Feeding School Children
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if the Local Government Board have yet made, a grant for the immediate feeding of school children in Dublin; and if he will request them to release their hold on the funds which he states they have for this purpose?
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can state what arrangements have been made or are in progress to meet the demands of the necessitous school children in danger of starvation by the provision of meals for them pending legislation; whether any measures are being devised to enable the coal fund to be carried oil as usual; and whether the Local Government Board will endeavour to secure funds to relieve exceptional distress in Dublin city?
The arrangements for the feeding of necessitous school children are being continued and their continuance is provided for. There is no need for such a request as the hon. member for the Harbour Division suggests. In further answer to the hon. Member for St. Patrick's Division I may say that as to possible legislative action I am ready to deal with the Bill which I am told his colleague the hon. Member for the St. Stephen's Green Division' has undertaken to prepare as soon as I receive it. The coal fund and other funds for relief of distress are necessarily funds for the provision of voluntary help. It is the business of the Local Government Board to deal with any representations which may be made to it as to danger of exceptional distress and conditions affecting public health, and the Board is devoting constant attention to these subjects.
Will Ireland be treated in the same way as England: that is, will the Treasury pay any of the funds, or will they pay 50 per cent., as they do in England?
I dare say that the hon. Member knows that there are a series of Acts of Parliament dealing with this subject. There are Acts of Parliament dealing with England and Acts of Parliament dealing with Ireland.' I shall have the draft of the Bill of the hon. Member for the St. Stephen's Green Division, and when I have looked into the Statutory provisions I shall be in a position to deal with the matter.
Has the right hon. Gentleman's attention been drawn to a statement recently made by Judge Neill of Chicago, in which he said that having had opportunities of visiting most of the great cities of Europe and the United States he had never seen such poverty, particularly among the children, as he had seen in the poorer parts of Dublin at this moment? Will the right hon. Gentleman take that exceptional statement of the case into consideration?
I have not seen the statement of Judge Neill and have not the personal knowledge which enables me to make the comparisons to which my hon. Friend refers, but the positive conditions in Dublin must engage the most careful attention of any administrator.
Defence of the Realm Act
Court-Martial (J. Carroll, Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland the nature of the charges against John Carroll, who was arrested and tried by court-martial at Victoria Barracks, Cork, on 27th October; and if he will state whether this man caused incitement to violence or deliberate infringement of the public safety?
John Carroll was tried for an offence against the Military Exercises and Drill (Ireland) Order. The evidence for the prosecution was to the effect that Carroll drilled a party of about forty men in skirmishing and extended order drill for about one and a half hours, but there was no evidence that he verbally incited the men under him to violence. Whether his conduct was calculated to lead to an infringement of the public safety was a matter for determination by the Court.
Question
Flax (Grading)
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction of the farmers in the North-West of Ireland with the present system of grading flax in the local markets; and whether he can see his way to appoint an official grader who will represent the Department at the local markets, and do away with the suspicion of inequality and injustice?
asked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) whether his attention has been called to the resolution passed at a meeting of farmers of the North-West in Londonderry on the 31st October protesting against the method of grading flax now employed, and calling upon the Department to appoint an official grader to represent the interest of the growers in all the local markets; and what steps he proposes to take?
I have been asked to reply to these questions. My right hon. Friend is aware that dissatisfaction has been expressed by Irish farmers in certain cases with the methods of grading flax which are now employed. The matter has been brought to the attention of the Flax Supplies Committee and is receiving their careful consideration. The Department of Agriculture (Ireland) and the farmers are represented on this Committee, which is responsible for the appointment of the official graders. It is, therefore, unnecessary for the Department of Agriculture to make independent appointments.
Reconstruction
Joint Secretaries to Ministry
asked the Prime Minister what salaries are assigned to the two joint Secretaries of the Ministry of Reconstruction and to the six Assistant-Secretaries appointed to the same Ministry; whether the separate functions attached to this Ministry have rendered necessary this establishment of higher officials; and whether opportunity will be given to the Select Committee on Expenditure to satisfy themselves as to the necessity for this expense?
One of the Joint Secretaries continues to receive his existing salary of £1,500 as Vice-Chairman of the Development Commission; the other, who was previously Assistant-Secretary to the War Cabinet, receives an increase in salary of £200 per annum. Of the six Assistant-Secretaries, one is unpaid, one draws salary as an Insurance Commissioner, two receive £900 a year in lieu of a previous salary of £600, and two receive the sum of £3 and £25 respectively in addition to the payments they were previously receiving in order to bring their payments up to the scale allowed for Assistant-Secretaries, one being transferred from the Ministry of Munitions and the other from the Treasury.
The functions and scope of the Ministry necessitates a much larger proportion of higher officials and a lower proportion of subordinate staff than are required in Departments exercising executive functions, and while I do not regard an annual payment of £828 new money in all to the eight principal officials of an important Department as being open to criticism on the grounds of excess, I shall be glad to give the Special Committee every opportunity of satisfying themselves as to the propriety of the expenditure.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman has consulted the Treasury before making the appointments?
Oh, indeed I have.
May I ask why it is necessary to give such large increases to men who write if they can only give such a small increase to the men who fight?
May I ask will these sums be charged on the Estimates of the Ministry of Reconstruction or upon offices from which these gentlemen come?
I would like notice of that question.
Committees Appointed (Terms of Reference)
asked the Minister of Reconstruction whether he is able to make any statement as to the composition and terms of reference of the various Committees appointed to consider reconstruction problems; and whether he will publish the Reports of any of the Committees that have completed their work?
In an answer which I gave on 6th November to the hon. Member for Rutland I announced that details will shortly be furnished to Parliament.
Will that be by way of a White Paper?
Yes.
Mid-Scotland Canal
asked the Minister of Reconstruction whether, in connection with the projected Mid-Scotland Canal, he has taken any steps to satisfy himself that due weight is being given by the Admiralty to the urgency of having its current investigation completed in time to take advantage of the labour of demobilized men for this national work immediately the War is over?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in connection with the projected Mid-Scotland Canal, he has taken any steps to satisfy himself that due weight is being given by the Admiralty in its current investigation of rival routes to the commercial value of such a canal?
In the consideration which is now being given to proposals for the construction of a Mid-Scotland Canal, weight is being given to all the considerations mentioned in those questions.
Is weight being given to this by the Ministry of Reconstruction and the President of the Board of Trade, to whom the Secretary to the Admiralty referred the other day in the answer in which he specially mentioned that it was the duty of the Minister of Reconstruction and the President of the Board of Trade to give attention to the commercial value of this canal?
I am Chairman of the Committee myself, and the Board of Trade and the Admiralty are also represented on it.
May I ask whether, in connection with this Committee or otherwise, the Ministry of Reconstruction is considering the general question of internal waterways?
I am discussing that question with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade at this present time.
Buildings, Plant, and Material
asked the Minister of Reconstruction whether, in order to avoid the wholesale scrapping and exploitation after the declaration of peace of plant and material used by the Government for war purposes, he will set up a Committee charged with the duty of keep- ing a record of all machinery, plant, buildings, and material supplied to private firms, investigating the post-war uses to which these could be put, estimating their value in the factories or firms concerned, and taking this value in shares on behalf of a trust for the endowment of education, of scientific research in the interest of industries, and of schemes for the social and economic betterment of workers?
The possibility of arrangements for keeping a record of the nature suggested is being considered by a Committee appointed by me in consultation with the Ministry of Munitions.
Lecture by Mr. Lynch
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether it was by his instructions that, on the occasion of a lecture on "Ideas of Reconstruction" by the Member for West Clare, at Toynbee Hall on the night of 2nd November, a Scotland Yard detective was sent down to take shorthand notes; whether these tactics are to be directed against all Members who criticise the Government sincerely; if not, what was the special motive on this occasion; whether any guarantee exists that these notes are a correct record; and, if so, whether the lecture will be published and placed in the Library?
It is the duty of the police in present circumstances to keep themselves informed of what passes at public meetings. A reporter attended the meeting in question as a matter of routine, and his presence must not be construed as necessarily unfriendly. It is not considered that sufficient public interest attaches to the lecture to justify me in giving to it the publicity which the hon. Member desires.
Considering that I have always sought every occasion in this House to represent my views——
The hon. Member is making a statement by way of asking a question.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reserve for his compeers these mean and slimy tricks?
Food Supplies
Public Kitchens
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what action, if any, is being taken to ensure the provision of kitchens formed and conducted under public authority where in the more populous centres throughout the country cooked food may be produced in large quantities and sold at low prices estimated to cover the cost of production; and will he bear in mind the economy which would ensue from the preparation of food in large quantities both in respect of the foodstuffs supplied and of fuel?
The Food Controller is calling the attention of food economy committees to the great importance from the point of view of food and fuel economy of central kitchens for the provision of good, cheap, and well-cooked food in thickly populated areas. There are already 161 central kitchens in the country, and it is hoped that this appeal, together with some degree of financial assistance where necessary, will effect a considerable increase in their number.
Potatoes Order (War Cabinet Decision)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food when he will abolish the control price of potatoes in Ireland and let the markets settle the prices to be paid by consumers?
asked the Prime Minister if the Government have yet decided the potato question and, if so, will he state the proposals?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there is difference between the War Cabinet and the Food Controller in regard to the policy to be pursued by the Government for making the potato supplies in Ireland and Great Britain available for satisfying the public needs; and when will he be in a position to state definitely the intentions of the Government on this question?
The War Cabinet have decided to modify the Potatoes Order by abolishing the minimum price of £6 per ton for sales by growers, allowing a free market for sales by growers throughout the United Kingdom) subject to the con- tinuance of the existing maximum price of £6 10s. per ton and to certain other reservations.
In order to fulfil the pledge given to growers the Government will compensate them for sales at a lower figure than £6 on the following lines: The Food Controller will fix month by month a base price for each of the principal potato-producing areas in the United Kingdom, and every grower will receive from the Government a money payment based on the amount by which the average price realised by his sales in lots of four tons or more during the month falls below the guaranteed figure of £6 per ton, provided that sales made below the base price will be treated as having been made at that price. This scheme will come into operation on the 19th November, 1917. In the meantime the existing minimum price of £6 per ton will remain in force, but the Government will not institute proceedings under the Defence of the Realm Regulations against any grower who chooses to sell at a lower figure and forego any claim to compensation under the Government guarantee. The base prices for the various areas for the remaining weeks of the year are being settled in consultation with the Departments of Agriculture, and will be announced next week.
Will my hon. Friend say, in reference to the sales which have taken place since 15th September, the date on which the Government guarantee came into force, whether anything will be done to meet the case of those who have been compelled to sell already, and also whether no allowance whatever will be made, particularly in Ireland, to sellers of less than four tons, and whether the House will have an early opportunity of discussing this extraordinary announcement?
As to the first part of the question, I think the course to be pursued is indicated in the answer which I have already given, that proceedings are not likely to be taken. The question of a discussion in this House is a matter for the Prime Minister and those who have control of the course of business of the House. As to the small growers I think that I will require notice, as it is probably more or less on the point of details covered in the last part of the answer.
Will the hon. Gentleman recommend the difference in price to be paid in regard to the price of potatoes in Ireland, owing to the small wages which are earned by the working classes, which are quite different from what are earned by the working classes in England, and will he consider reducing the price of potatoes, and paying compensation to the farmers which they are entitled to get, to relieve distress in Ireland?
The base price referred to in the closing part of the question will, I think, during next week satisfy my hon. Friend. Meantime I am assured that he need have no fear as to the point which he has mentioned with regard to Ireland.
Does the hon. Gentleman, by saying that these people will have no reason to believe that they will be prosecuted, mean that they are guilty of breaking the law or that they are not?
The hon. Member will understand that a pledge was given by the Government. That pledge has secured its object, in the production of an immense supply of potatoes for the country. In face of that very large supply there has been a very great demand to reduce that price, and a change of policy has, therefore, been announced in the answer which I have given.
Has any estimate been made as to the additional charge which will thus be thrown on the Exchequer?
Yes. An estimate has been made, and an announcement will be made in the course of next week.
Are the persons who it is said are not likely to be prosecuted going to be prosecuted or not? Will the hon. Gentleman answer "Yes," or "No"?
As I understand the answer to the question, the Order which is referred to comes into force on the 19th November, and persons who sell between now and the 19th November will not be reimbursed by the Government, but after the 19th November they will, and will not that be an incentive to the holding up of potatoes?
I have given a reply to that question in the answer. To give an opinion would not help those who are involved in this difficulty with the Government, and the hon. Member had better wait for a further statement to be made in the course of next week.
Is it the intention of the Government who have given this pledge, to see that the poor people of Ireland shall not pay the compensation pledged to the farmers. Is that keeping the pledge?
The effect of giving the pledge has been to secure to the poor people not only of Ireland but of this country far more potatoes than they otherwise would have had.
Questions
Special Constables
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the rate of pay and allowances, and what are the rest days allowed to special constables in uniform, as compared with those of the regular constabulary; whether the duties of these special constables in uniform are identical with those of the regular constabulary; and whether it is proposed to place these men on a footing similar to that of the regular force?
The conditions on which special constables are employed vary greatly in different forces. In the Metropolitan Police district they give their services voluntarily, and are usually on duty for four hours every three days, besides attending on emergency calls. Their duties are similar to those of the regular police, but not identical. It is not proposed to make any change in their position.
Enemy Businesses
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the firm of August Reichwald, Limited, of Finsbury Pavement House, E.C., are Government contractors; whether this firm are or were Krupp's London agents; whether any members of the firm were arrested on the outbreak of war, and, if so, on what grounds were they released; whether he is aware that one of the Reichwald family served in France as an officer of our India Army; that he left France at the request of the French authorities, and thereupon changed his name to Blaker; and whether under that name he is now employed in our Intelligence Department or in any other Government Department?
I am inquiring into this case.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any of the British patents or shares belonging to Krupp's, of Essen, represent the control or an important part of essential methods of manufacture or sources of supply of steel or iron?
I am not in a position to estimate to what extent the British patents owned by Krupp's control essential processes in the manufacture of steel or iron. No shares belonging to Krupp's in British companies give control of any source of supply of steel or iron, but Krupp's held one-fourth of the shares in the Orconera Iron Ore Company, Limited, which have been transferred into the name of the Public Trustee by an order of the Court.
May I ask whether they are already sold?
I cannot answer that.
Will the hon. Gentleman say whether the Public Trustee holds the dividends to the end of the War?
I believe he holds all funds of this kind in his possession to the end of the War?
Is it not right that shares belonging to enemy subjects which get into the hands of the Public Trustee should be sold to British subjects?
That is the practice.
Who takes the dividends?
They are held.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any and what number of British patents and any and what nominal amount of shares in British companies belonging to Krupp's, of Essen, or other enemy steel manufactures, remain in the enemy's name or vested in the Public Trustee and unsold?
There are a large number of British patents owned by Krupp's, but it would not be possible to compile a complete list because registration of assignments is not compulsory. Enemy-owned patents are subject to the Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks (Temporary Rules) Acts and the grant of licences to British firms thereunder. The shares in British companies belonging to Krupp's or vested in the Public Trustee and unsold are:
Will the hon. Gentleman say, with these assets of Messrs. Krupp in this country, whether the creditors of Messrs. Krupp in this country have been paid their debts?
All these shares and the results of these shares are held in trust in this country as a set-off against any debts that may be owing.
Will the debts be paid out of the Trustee's funds?
Has the Trustee power to sell?
He has power to sell.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider the desirability in the national interest of arranging that all patents and shares belonging to enemies should be sold; and whether any and what steps are being taken to eliminate the enemy interests in our essential industries?
The provisions of the Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks (Temporary Rules) Acts enable licences to be granted to work enemy-owned patents, and as at present advised I am not of opinion that it is expedient to order all such patents to be sold. It is the practice to vest shares belonging to enemies in British companies in the Public Trustee for the purpose of sale where the enemy holding is of such amount as to exercise some influence in the management of the company, but it is not necessary for this purpose that all shares belonging to enemies should invariably be sold.
Will the hon. Gentleman say whether he considers by this means we shall get rid of enemy influence after the War?
We intend to get rid of any enemy influence during the War.
Metropolitan Police
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to the difficulty now experienced by retired police officers and constables who, through age or illness, are unable to supplement their pensions in making both ends meet owing to the reduced value of their pensions in consequence of the increased cost of living; and, if so, will he recommend the grant of a bonus to them until such time as the purchasing value of the pension approximates to pre-war conditions?
I regret that I cannot add anything to the written reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Portsmouth on the 4th July last.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the separation allowances paid OUT of police funds to the wives and dependants of members of the Metropolitan Police who have joined His Majesty's Forces with the consent of the Commissioner have yet been increased under the provisions of the Police Constables (Naval and Military Service) Act, 1917?
The determination of the increased amounts payable to the wives and families of members of the Metropolitan Police who have joined His Majesty's Forces has been delayed owing to the recent abolition of the Army compulsory allotment, which has necessitated the recasting of the figures, but I hope the matter will be settled shortly.
Can the right hon. Gentleman fix a date?
I cannot fix a date; I hope it will be soon.
Postal Censor
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether a number of copies of a book entitled "Why Freedom Matters," dispatched by Messrs. Headley Brothers, Limited, of Kingsway, to Chicago, have been held up by the Postal Censor; whether it is intended to withhold the book from foreign circulation; and, if so, whether the copies in question will be returned to the senders?
The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is in the affirmative. I regret that no exception can be made in this case to the general rule, that no information can be given in regard to the treatment of postal packets by the Censor. The question of allowing pamphlets such as that named to be exported without restrictions is now under consideration.
Munitions
Factory Construction
asked the Minister of Munitions whether it is the practice of the Director of Factory Construction, and has been the practice since the appointment of the present holder of that office, to get no contract prices in iron, brick, or other work in the erection of factories for the Ministry of Munitions, giving out the work to known contractors without any limitation as to prices; and if so, will he say why his Department adopts this method of working, having regard to the need of economy?
Certain contractors are retained by the Ministry for the erection of factories. These contractors, for a small rate of commission, undertake the whole supervision of the work, and provide all plant, etc., required. The materials are obtained by the contractors by competitive tender, and all tenders for such materials are subject to the approval of the Director of Factory Construction. It is believed that under this system considerable economies have been effected.
Does it not strike the hon. Gentleman that this system of having no contract prices leads to greater carelessness as to prices?
My hon. Friend is not right in saying there are no contract prices. On the contrary, these things are purchased by competitive tender.
Does not that apply only to sub-contracts?
No; it applies, as I stated in my answer, to the materials required for the erection of these factories.
Priority Department
asked the Minister of Munitions whether there is, or has been until recently, a gentleman of the name of Sonnenschein employed in the Priority Department, Ministry of Munitions; if he can state what this gentleman's nationality, antecedents, and remuneration are; and whether he can state the number, names, and positions of any officials or employés in the Ministry of Munitions of alien origin and their nationality?
Mr. W. T. S. Sonnenschein has been employed in the Ministry in an unpaid capacity since September 3rd, 1915 He is a British-born subject and the son of British-born subjects, and holds the office of Vice-Principal of Brasenose College, Oxford. With regard to the latter part of the question, it is the practice of the Ministry to require all candidates for appointment to furnish particulars as to their nationality and parentage, and, in addition to corroborating these particulars by application to referees, to submit names of employés for full investigation by the Commissioner of Police, and also by the branch of the War Office concerned in the investigation of persons of alien origin or association. To obtain the detailed particulars asked for would involve the examination of the personal files of every employé in the Ministry, and, as at present advised, I am not prepared to impose upon the Department the labour involved in preparing such a return.
Can my hon. Friend state the age and category of Sonnenschein?
If the hon. Member desires the information, and will put down a question I will get it.
Skilled Time-Workers
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has received representations with regard to the exclusion from the Skilled Time-workers' Wages Order of a number of the work-takers in the Royal Ordnance Factories; and whether favourable consideration will be given to their claim for inclusion?
I understand that representations have recently been received by the Chief Superintendent of Ordnance Factories to the effect that work takers should be regarded as covered by the Skilled Time-workers' Wages Order. As soon as a report has been received on the matter, it will be carefully considered, and the decision will be communicated to the men concerned.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Minister of Munitions, whether he can state the amount expended by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) in acquiring and remodelling licensed and other premises in the Annan, Gretna, and Carlisle districts since the Board has exercised control within these areas, the amount paid for stocks of liquor taken over, the number of claims of dispossessed licence-holders still awaiting settlement, and the amount claimed by them?
Answers to the first and second parts of the question, so far as it is at present possible to publish the information, were given in the Statement of Accounts presented to Parliament in July (Cd. 8635). As regards the third and fourth parts of the question, the claims of the majority of the dispossessed licence-holders have already been settled. The process of acquisition has, however, been gradual, and it would not be possible to give figures regarding the cases which remain unsettled, in many of which no-claims have yet been preferred.
Have claims that have been settled been before the War Losses Commission?
That is so with regard to some of them, but I would rather have notice.
Questions
Petrol Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any statement of the quantities of petrol granted to farmers in Scotland by the Local Agricultural Committees; is he aware that farmers are granted petrol, allowing them to run the full week on pleasure, on the ground that their cars are used for agricultural purposes, although the facts are that only on one day per week are they used for such work and that only to take a few articles to market; and will he therefore, in view of the fact that agricultural committees consist largely of farmers, take this licensing of petrol out of their hands and put it elsewhere?
The grant of petrol licences to farmers in Scotland is, as in all other cases, controlled by the Petrol Control Department of the Board of Trade. At the request of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, the District Agricultural Committees were authorised to recommend allowances of petrol in cases where the interests of food production justified special consideration. I am not aware that farmers, whose applications for petrol have been supported in this way by the District Agricultural Committees, are using the petrol for pleasure purposes. As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, the use of petrol for pleasure purposes is now prohibited by an Order of the Board of Trade which came into force a week ago.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the only class in Scotland, as the only class of the public that indulge in "joy" rides, are the Departments?
If there is any "joy" riding in Scotland it is the business of the police to put an end to it.
Monkeys (Importation)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the continued import of menagerie animals into this country, particularly the expected arrival from Calcutta of 600 Rhesus monkeys, three tigers, five leopards, five Indian bears, one Indian lynx, one fishing cat, two birds of paradise, 200 avadavats, five Indian hornbills, and seven barbets; and whether it is intended to take steps to prohibit these imports in future?
Since the import of wild animals was prohibited in May last, licences have been issued only for quite insignificant numbers. The animals must be carried on deck in space unsuitable for other merchandise. I have no knowledge of the consignment referred to in the question, and I shall be obliged if the hon. Gentleman will give me further particulars of it.
Does the hon. Gentleman think that the importation of 600 monkeys, which are sufficient to fill this House, is an insignificant number?
I have no knowledge of the importation of the 600 monkeys referred to. If the hon. Gentleman will give me particulars I will make inquiry.
Is there any truth in the rumour that these animals are imported for the purposes of the Government?
Mercantile Marine (Uniform)
asked the President of the Board of Trade when it is expected that a decision will be arrived at with regard to a standard national uniform for the mercantile marine?
I am informed that the Committee which is considering this question hope to report within the next few weeks.
Station Taxi-Cab Dispute
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government will take steps to put an end to the inconvenience occasioned to the travelling public, particularly to soldiers returning on leave, by the present system under which taxi-cabs cannot be obtained within railway stations in London?
I am afraid I can only refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the reply which I gave on this subject on Monday last to the hon. Member for Devonport.
May I ask whether, inasmuch as the Government are in control, or supposed to be in control, of the railways, it is not possible to take steps to put an end to this intolerable nuisance?
It is not the fault of the Government that an end has not been put to this difficulty. Every effort has been made to arrive at a settlement.
As the Government subsidised potatoes will they subsidise taxi-cabs?
Will the hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of the dispute being ended by the penny charge which is in question being paid by members of the public who desire to use the cabs?
I will convey that suggestion to my right hon. Friend the President.
Honours (Contributions to Party Funds)
asked the Prime Minister if, in order to obtain material information for his assistance in satisfying himself, before recommending any person for any honour or dignity, that no payment to any party or political fund is directly or indirectly associated with the grant or promise of such honour or dignity, he will consider the advisability of securing a yearly publication of the investments in, and trustees of, party funds and of contributions thereto with the names of the donors?
The utility or otherwise of the course suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend would require more careful examination than the Government have at present time to give it.
asked the Prime Minister whether service to the State is, and will be, the only consideration in the recommendation of persons for any honour or dignity?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for North Somerset on the 6th November.
Military Service
Man-Power
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to afford early facilities for a discussion of the question of man-power for the prosecution of the War, in view of the extended duties which have recently been undertaken by the Ministry of National Service?
As I have already stated it is I think right that this subject should be discussed, but I am not at present able to specify the occasion for its discussion.
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman cannot give some more definite undertaking that an opportunity will be given to discuss this matter sometime during this Session?
An opportunity will be given—that is my intention.
Questions
Assessors and Collectors of Taxes
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if assessors and collectors of taxes who have joined the Forces, or are willing to do so, are assured of reinstatement on their return to civil life; and if their pay whilst they are in the Army or Navy is being supplemented to enable them to meet their family and financial obligations as is the practice in regard to other Civil servants?
Assessors and collectors of taxes are appointed partly by the Board of Inland Revenue, but mostly by the various bodies of Local Commissioners throughout the country. They are appointed for a year. In the case of assessors and collectors appointed by the Board who have joined the Forces, the Board have intimated that they will be given a preferential claim to consideration for appointment after the War. It is understood that a similar course has been adopted generally by the Local Commissioners. As regards the latter part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 24th July last to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Louth.
Petroleum (Production) Bill
asked the Prime Minister if he will say what are the intentions of the Government as to the Petroleum (Production) Bill; and whether the proposal to establish petroleum Royalties will be abandoned?
I regret that I am not yet in a position to make any statement.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is a fortnight now since his Government was defeated on this point, and are they really considering this policy of wait and see from that time?
I do not recollect the date, but we have had a good many other things to consider in the meantime.
Currency
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the rise in prices is largely attributable to inflation of the currency; and whether he will give an undertaking that the issue of paper money, Treasury notes of £1 and 10s. shall not in any one week exceed £1,000,000?
I can add nothing to the answer I gave the hon. Member on the 24th October.
Kaiser's Relatives
asked the Prime Minister whether he will publish a full list of all the inhabitants of this country who are related by blood or by marriage to the family of the Kaiser, or to other Royal or high aristocratic families in Germany, and who are entitled to receive sums of money from the British Treasury; and whether he will indicate in each case the services which the recipients have rendered to this country?
The answer is in the negative.
Is the list too long?
Enemy Princes
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government has recently taken into consideration again the case of the enemy princes who are still members of the British House of Lords; whether it has adopted the view that they were in honour bound to fight for Germany against this country; if so, whether it is proposed to receive them in the House of Lords again after the War; and, if not, whether steps will be taken to deprive them of their prerogatives?
This matter will be dealt with when the Titles Deprivation Bill has received the Royal Assent.
Death of Thomas Ashe
asked the Prime Minister whether the evidence of Colonel Sir Thomas Myles and Colonel Sir Arthur Chance given at the inquest of Thomas Ashe has been brought to his notice; if he is aware that these eminent medical authorities stated that forcible feeding was dangerous to life even in the most skilled hands; and if he will say whether the Government have decided, or will consider, the advisability of abolishing for all time this method of punishing prisoners?
I have been asked to reply, and I would refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the same question when he asked it on the 23rd October.
It is over a fortnight since the right hon. Gentleman replied, and he then said the matter was being considered. Have they come to any decision on the point?
I suppose the hon. Gentleman would have concluded we had other preoccupations in the meantime?
Can the right hon. Gentleman cite one eminent medical authority who will say that in order to save a man's life it is well to pursue a course of treatment which inevitably ends in death?
That is an argumentative question.
Is it not the fact that in the opinion of many of the highest officials in Ireland this man has been murdered——
Order, order!
Peace Proposals
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that M. Briand gave a full account to a large number of French Deputies, under no pledge of secrecy, of the offer of peace proposals made through him by the German Government, and that this meeting took place prior to the secret session of the French Chamber; and whether some means will be taken to inform the members of the British Parliament as fully as the French Deputies of these proposals, which affect the common interests of the Allies?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the second part, therefore, does not arise.
Have the Foreign Office made any inquiries as to whether there is any truth in this statement, reported freely in the papers here, that the whole of the French Chamber know what those offers were, and were publicly told; and if that turns out to be true will the Government take measures to inform the British House of Commons?
I would like notice of that question.
Has the Noble Lord had his attention called to the publication of these terms in certain English newspapers?
I do not know that my attention has been specially called to that, but I believe some such publication bas taken place.
Was not the whole of this published in the "Manchester Guardian," and cannot the Foreign Office say whether that publication was more or less correct?
It was published in the "Daily Telegraph," too!
I did not see the number of the "Manchester Guardian" referred to by the hon. and gallant Gentleman.
Mesopotamia Commission
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the publicity given to the findings and Report of the Mesopotamia Commission on the conduct of Surgeon-General Sir William Babtie, he will give equal publicity to the explanations of that officer which have been accepted by the Army Council?
I would refer my hon. friend to the answer which I gave to him in the course of the Debate on the 6th of this month.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that he said that the question of the publication of this explanation would be considered, and has he anything further to say?
No; I did not. I said at that time, and I repeat now, that the Army Council has never published explanations from officers.
Are we to understand, then, that the Army Council alone are the only people who are to be satisfied when public charges have been made against a man?
I think the main thing to be considered is that the man did not wish publication.
What is the use of this House appointing a Commission to go into this question when the War Office and the War Cabinet go directly in face of them?
May I say that in the case of Sir William Babtie, the Mesopotamia Commissioners went out of their way to point out the great loss to the public service if he were withdrawn from it.
Sir John Simon
asked the Prime Minister what post the hon. Member for Walthamstow has been given in the Army; whether he can state the rank given to him; and whether he can explain how this is possible in some cases and not in all?
My right hon. and gallant Friend holds the appointment of a Staff captain in the Royal Flying Corps, with the temporary rank of major. Rank is given where it is necessary to enable an officer to carry out his duties properly.
Will the hon. Gentleman explain what are the duties of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow and how it is possible for a Member of this House to step straight into Staff rank, when there are many of us who have tried to bring forward the names of men who have been fighting for us and cannot secure promotion?
Has the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow ever before been in the Army service?
I do not know whether my right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Walthamstow has ever been in Army service before, but I think the Army would be ill-advised to refuse the services and conspicuous ability of a Member of this House who is prepared to offer them in a spirit of self-denial and in a self-sacrificing manner.
Can my hon. Friend say what are the duties of the right hon. and learned Gentlemen in this particular rank?
I do not know exactly, but my hon. Friend will understand from my answer—and I hope the House will also understand—that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow is not attached to the Staff in any fighting capacity, but attached to the Staff in a way that his conspicuous ability will be of enormous value to the State.
Considering that Mr. Raymond Asquith, with his well-known capacity, fought in the trenches, is it sug- gested by the Under-Secretary that the right hon. Gentleman should occupy a position of this kind to start with?
Is it not the fact that the right hon. Gentleman, in taking up this post in France, is sacrificing £25,000 a year?
That is absolutely true, and the other fact which should be remembered is that my right hon. and gallant Friend is over military age.
Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that a great many of the boys have sacrificed everything they had to join the Army?
Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman not setting a very good example to some other people here who ought to be doing the same?
Export Trade (Licences)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the War Trade Department of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that Messrs. Smyth, of Balbriggan, county of Dublin, booked considerable orders last spring through a firm in Freeport, Copenhagen, for very high-class hosiery, and that licences were duly issued in August to export the goods so ordered by the Department mentioned; that, on being informed in October by the shipping company by whom the goods were to be sent to Denmark that they were unable to ship them then and that fresh licences should be obtained, Messrs. Smyth duly applied for a renewal of the licences and were refused; and, seeing that the goods in question are of a perishable nature and would be easily ruined by exposure to damp and even depreciated in value by remaining an unduly long time in packing cases, whether fresh licences will now be issued and this Irish industry so saved from injury?
As the hon. Member is doubtless aware, His Majesty's Government have suspended the issue of licences for the export of goods from the United Kingdom to Scandinavia and Holland, in pursuance of the blockade policy of the Allied Governments and the United States Government. Messrs. Smyth and Company are understood to have submitted a very large number of applications which are doubtless affected by the above restrictions, although, in the absence of particulars, it is impossible to identify the particular cases to which the hon. Member refers. I am afraid it is impossible for me to recommend that an exception to the War policy of the country should be made for the benefit of any particular industry.
Press Messages (Ireland)
asked the Prime Minister whether Press telegrams and letters reporting occurrences in Ireland for the English Press are subject to censorship; if so, will he state what reason there is that news which can be published in Ireland cannot be published in England; and will he now place Irish and English newspapers on an equal footing so far as reports regarding occurrences in Ireland are concerned?
I have been asked to answer this question. All Press telegrams are liable to censorship, but there is no censorship of postal communications. I am informed by the Censor in Dublin that where Press telegrams from Ireland to British newspapers contain matter which offends against the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and has either been censored in the Irish Press or would be censored were it intended for publication in Ireland that matter is deleted. So far as the Irish censorship is concerned no Press matter directed to British newspapers is censored which would not be censored were it directed to the Irish Press. I am informed from the Press Bureau that no difference is made between submissions by English and Irish newspapers.
Sir W. Byrne
asked the Prime Minister whether he has seen the public declaration of the Lord Mayor of Dublin in reference to the conduct of Sir William Byrne, Under-Secretary of Ireland; if he will say whether the Government propose to continue the services of Sir William Byrne in Ireland or if he has tendered his resignation; and if he is aware that the continuance of Sir William Byrne's services with that of Major Price and Major Ball will provoke further dissension in Ireland?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply to this question. I have seen the declaration referred to in the question, which I am convinced has arisen from a misunderstanding. Sir William Byrne's services in Ireland, more particularly in connection with the exceptional administrative arrangements needed to deal with conditions arising from the War, have been, in my judgment, of very great value to the whole of Ireland. I should therefore regard it as a public disadvantage if he were induced by a mistaken view about a personal conversation to resign the office he holds.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think it would be a public disadvantage that a man like Sir William Byrne should be removed after his conduct, and after his insults to the mayoral chair in Dublin?
Certainly I should.
I think this matter—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]
Sheriffs (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the rearrangement of the work of the sheriffs-substitute of the Lothians, Falkirk, Peebles, and Selkirk, which he has recently brought about, will result in any saving of money to the Treasury; and will he institute any further rearrangements in the administration of justice in Scotland that will result in financial saving, in view of the fact that war time economy is called for?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative: £675 per annum will be saved. In reply to the second part of the question, I can give my hon. and learned Friend the assurance that advantage will be taken of any opportunity of saving expenditure without diminishing efficiency.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the number of cases coming before the sheriff-principal of Ross-shire, Cromartyshire, and Sutherlandshire during the year 1915 was two, and that the salary paid to the sheriff-principal of these shires was £750; and whether he proposes to make any change in war-time, so as to save the money of the State?
For reasons which have been explained in reply to previous questions by my hon. and learned Friend, I cannot accept the statistics of appeal cases which he quotes as an index to the duties performed by sheriffs-principal in Scotland. The number in the case he refers to is as stated in his question; the salary is £700. In reply to the second part of the question, I have nothing to add to my answer of the 5th instant.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not think this is a fitting opportunity to save expenditure as indicated by him?
I said saving expenditure without diminishing efficiency.
War Insurances (Net Premium)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is in a position to state what was the amount of the net premium on war insurances received up to the 30th September, 1917, and what was the amount of losses, claims, and return premiums paid and outstanding at the same date?
:My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I do not think it would be in the public interest at present to publish the figures relating to the Government war insurance schemes.
German Submarine (Exhibition)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can now make any statement as to the exhibition of a German captured submarine for the purpose of obtaining increased sales of the new War Loan Bonds?
As I promised in reply to a similar question by the hon. Member, I have consulted my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, and I regret that it is not possible at present to adopt the hon. Member's suggestion.
War Bonds (Advertising)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the action of the United States Government in using their Post Office for advertising their last War Loan; and will he consider if the British Post Office can be used in the same way to advertise our new War Bonds?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am in communication with the Postmaster-General with regard to this proposal.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the Pensions Minister whether his attention has been called to the assurance, given by his predecessor, that the question of removing the hardship of parents who are deprived of separation allowance because their sons enlisted during their apprenticeship or whilst they were under training for skilled occupations was then under consideration; if the question has now been decided; and, if not, whether he can state how soon a decision may be expected?
The matter to which the hon. Member refers is being dealt with by an amending regulation, made by the Special Grants Committee, which will be made public at the earliest possible date.
asked the Pensions Minister, if the mother of an unmarried soldier killed in action is eligible for pension; and, if so, to what amount?
The mother of an unmarried soldier killed in action may be granted a pension within the limit of 15s. weekly up to the support given by the soldier prior to the outbreak of war or to the date of his enlistment, and, under the concessions recently announced, if in pecuniary need or incapable or self-support through age or infirmity she may be granted a pension within the same limit irrespective of the question of dependence. About 90,000 such pensions have been awarded since the commencement of the War.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that within the last week letters have come from the Pensions Ministry saying that these people cannot get their pensions unless there has been an allotment made?
I was not aware of that. If the hon. Gentleman will give me instances, they shall be inquired into.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions whether he is aware that hardship is often inflicted on wounded soldiers without means, when they are instructed to attend before a doctor by the Local Pensions Committee, by limiting advances to them to the cost of their railway ticket; and whether, as distances from country villages to railway stations are often considerable, and in the case of a disabled man it is often necessary to get a conveyance to or from the railway station, he will give instructions that when a discharged soldier is ordered to attend anywhere the total cost of his visit shall be advanced and borne by the Pensions Committee concerned?
Local Committees are empowered under paragraph 13 (3) of the Instructions for Treatment and Training to defray the expenses to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers. If the hon. and gallant Member is aware of any cases of hardship in this connection, and will communicate the facts to me, I will have them investigated.
Is not the authority to defray the cost limited to railway travelling, and does not include any conveyance necessary to convey a wounded man a distance to and from a railway station?
No; as I have already said in answer to the question, it covers all traveling expenses.
Artificial Limbs
asked the Pensions Minister what proportion of limbless men supplied with artificial limbs are returning for renewals; whether he has evidence that this is due to the premature manufacture of the limb many months before full shrinkage of the stump had taken place; and whether he will send a commission to France and Italy to investigate the system of providing limbless men with temporary limbs, costing only a few shillings, pending the shrinking and moulding of stumps to their permanent condition?
It is recognised that a large proportion of the men who are fitted with artificial legs have to return for the limb to be refitted within six months or a year, but it is not possible from available statistics to state the exact proportion. The refitting is necessitated by shrinking of the stump, but this shrinking will not take place simply as the result of the passage of time, but only as the result of the pressure of the socket of an artificial limb, so that there is no evidence that the limbs are being fitted prematurely. The policy of supplying a provisional limb of a simple type before the fitting of the permanent limb is one on which surgical opinion is divided. It has been adopted in some cases, and its wider adoption is under consideration. It is unnecessary to send a commission of inquiry abroad, ample evidence being available in this country.
"Daily Mail" and Royal Navy
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to attacks published in the "Daily Mail" newspaper upon the Navy, which are calculated to prejudice the Navy both at home and abroad; and whether he proposes to proceed against this paper under Regulation 27 of the Defence of the Realm Act?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and my right hon. Friend the First Lord strongly deprecates personal attacks, which can only hamper his distinguished colleagues in the discharge of their duties. My right hon. Friend is convinced that such criticisms arise from imperfect appreciation and knowledge of the facts, and he hopes that his recent statement in this House will have removed many misapprehensions.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the proprietor of this paper has boasted of having many German family connections? Will he see to it that Admiral Jellicoe is not driven out of office by Lord Bolo?
Australian War Workers
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any complaints have been received from Australian war workers as to the treatment they received on their way to England on board a transport; and whether any inquiry is being held into the matter?
These war workers were conveyed from Australia to the United Kingdom in an Australian transport under arrangements made by the Commonwealth Government. My hon. Friend may rest assured that if there be any just cause for complaint the Commonwealth Government will attend to it.
Are we to understand that the complaints have to be made to the Commonwealth Government?
Shipping Losses (Submarines and Mines)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the published figures of the total British losses through submarines from the end of February to the end of October, inclusive, of 1,033 are correct; and whether he will state what were the total losses from the same cause during the corresponding period in 1916?
The number of ships sunk by submarine and mine during this period is now regarded as 1,052, the difference being mainly made up by vessels reported missing which, after due consideration, are now regarded as probably due to war risks. Only one of these is over 1,600 gross tons. There were also several vessels which were reported as total losses which have since been salved, and, on the other hand, there were vessels which were reported as damaged and beached which have since become total losses. As regards the last part of the question, as my hon. Friend knows, the weekly return was initiated at the end of February of this year. Prior to that, the figures for which he asks have not been published.
Am I to understand there is any reason why they should not be published?
It is not proposed to publish.
Do I understand from my right hon. Friend that those losses are not confined to losses through submarines, but include those from mines?
They are losses through submarines and mines, but they are adjusted in the way I have described, and the total is 1,052.
Does that include those steamers which have been beached and become wrecks?
Yes; if my hon. Friend will read the answer he will see that that is so.
Lord Mayor's Banquet
( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the menu prepared for the Lord Mayor's banquet to-morrow; whether he considers it compatible with recent appeals of the Controller of Food Economy to all classes; whether the Government have sanctioned special petrol concessions for the personal convenience of guests at this banquet; and whether, having regard to the fact that the guests will include prominent members of the War Directorate, special arrangements have been made for ensuring the safety of their lives from the dangers of enemy air attack?
As regards the first part of the question, a categorical assurance has been given by the authorities concerned that it was long ago arranged by them that the banquet should fall completely within the Food Controller's regulations. It was on this undertaking that the Prime Minister and I also accepted the invitation. As regards the second part, I am informed that the police have received instructions to allow holders of invitations to arrive and depart in motor cars.
Why?
So that they can get home.
As to the last part of the question, we are quite prepared to share the risks which are run by our fellow citizens.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what are the Food Controller's regulations regarding banquets?
No, I cannot.
Russia
Has the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House received any information regarding Russia?
No; I have received no authoritative information.
Old Age Pensions (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the payment of an old age pension to Mrs. Mary Smith, of Londonderry, has been discontinued on the ground that her means exceed the statutory limit in disregard of sworn testimony to the contrary; and that the pensions officer in estimating Mrs. Smith's income has taken account of the voluntary contributions made by her friends for her support; and whether, having regard to the provisions of the Old Age Pensions Act, the decision of the Local Government Board in this case will be reconsidered and Mrs. Smith's pension restored?
The facts are as stated; but by Section 2 (1) (d) of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1911, the yearly value of any benefit or privilege enjoyed by a person is to be regarded as means, and therefore it is immaterial whether the contributions made towards a person's support are voluntary or not. The "voluntary contribution by friends" in this case is, I am told, the provision made by Mrs. Smith's son for the support of his mother. The case was investigated by an inspector, whose report confirmed the view taken of the evidence by the pension officer.
Congested Districts Board, Ireland (Miller and Ormsby Estates)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland when the Congested Districts Board intend to relieve the congestion that exists in the townlands of Currycallaun and Roslahan Lower on the O. B. Miller and Ormsby estates, county Mayo, which were acquired by the Board eight years ago; have the Board made any effort to acquire untenanted or non-residential lands in the district for the purpose of such relief; if so, with what result; and can he state why the tenants of from three to six acres of poor land have not got the enlargements of holdings to which they are entitled?
The townlands of Currycallaun and Roslahan Lower are on the estate of O. B. Miller and T. Ormsby, which has been purchased by the Congested Districts Board. I am informed that the Board acquired the tenancy interest of Bridget Henry, in the townland of Roslahan, and had decided to obtain possession of the non-residential holding of Mr. R. McDonald, in the townlands of Roslahan Lower and Currycallaun, for the relief of congestion. But in February last Mr. McDonald's cattle were driven off his land; and the order to take legal proceedings for possession was thereupon withdrawn. The prevalence of intimidation in any form has the effect of delaying indefinitely, instead of hastening, proceedings for the acquisition of any land in respect of which illegal practices prevail.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Consolidated Fund (No. 5) Bill, without Amendment.
Bill Presented
AIR FORCE BILL,—"to make provision for the establishment, administration, and discipline of an Air Force, the establishment of an Air Council, and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. LONG; supported by the Attorney-General and Major Baird; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 98.]
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Can my right hon. Friend say what will be the business for next week?
On Monday we shall take the Air Bill, Second Reading, and other Bills for which time may not be found to-day.
On Tuesday, the Second Reading of the Bill for the Extension of the Life of Parliament; also the Estimates for the War Aims Committee; and, if possible, perhaps, some other smaller measures.
On Wednesday, the Committee stage of the Air Bill, and the Committee stage of the Extension of the Life of Parliament Bill.
On Thursday, the Representation of the People Bill, on Report.
Will the whole day be given on Monday to the Air Bill?
PART II.—PARLIAMENTARY COUNTIES. (1) ENGLAND, EXCLUDING MONMOUTHSHIRE. Name of Parliamentary County. Contents of Parliamentary County. Total Number of Members for Parliamentary County. Names of Divisions of Parliamentary County. Contents or Boundaries of Divisions. Oxford … — — Woodstock … The Rural Districts of Banbury, Chipping Norton, Witney, and Woodstock, the Municipal Boroughs of Banbury, Chipping Norton, and Woodstock, and the Urban District of Witney.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the word "Woodstock," and to insert instead thereof the word "Banbury."
When Progress was reported last night I had just commenced placing before the Committee a few of the arguments in favour of the alteration of the name of the division from Woodstock to Banbury. I have no desire to repeat any of the arguments which I had an opportunity of putting before the Committee last night, but I wish it to be thoroughly understood that in no sense and in no possible way are the people of the borough of Banbury in any way actuated by any feelings of a vindictive character
We shall certainly give as much time as, in my opinion, the House desires.
Will the Government's Amendments to the Representation of the People Bill be placed early on the Paper?
I hope to give notice tomorrow of the first batch.
Representation of the People Bill
Redistribution of Seats
New Schedule
Considered in Committee.—[Progress, 7 th November. ]
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
[ For terms of Schedule, see Supplement to Votes, pp. 1743–1836. ]
or by any animosity to the borough of Woodstock. I urge this case upon what I honestly believe to be its merits. Historically there is no distinction between Banbury and Woodstock with regard to Parliamentary honours in the past. Woodstock was represented in this House from 1553 to 1885, and Banbury from 1554 to 1885, so that there is no distinction there.
By the effect of the Redistribution Bill of 1885 Banbury became the Northern or Banbury Division of Oxford, and that division under the proposed scheme remains intact with one exception, namely, that a small proportion of the municipal borough of Banbury called Grimsbury, which is now in South Northamptonshire, and which brings in something like 500 voters, is to be brought into the new division. It is important and it is part of the merits of my case to point out the difference between the populations of Banbury and Woodstock. The population of Banbury at the last Census is given as 13,465, and it is increasing. The population of Woodstock is 1,594, and it is certainly not increasing, but rather decreasing. The number of voters on the old register for the Banbury Division is 8,500, and if you add the 500 from the portion called Grimsbury it brings the total up to 9,000. The number of voters in the Woodstock Division is 11,091. It is now proposed to divide these equally, and it will make the voters from Ban-bury 14,545, and 5,545 come from the Woodstock Division. It is also material to show what is the rateable value. In Banbury the rateable value is £69,046, whilst that of Woodstock is £3,279. The rateable value of the rural district of Banbury is £127,837, and the rural district of Woodstock is only £73,914. These figures of the population and rateable value show conclusively in favour of the retention of Banbury as being the more important place.
It can hardly be said that the Commissioners can have considered the situation of the town of Banbury, because they have bisected the county of Oxford. Henley lies in the extreme south, and Banbury in the north. Woodstock is not central, but more eastern. The railway facilities are also in favour of Banbury. The Great Western Railway runs from Cropredy to the south of the county, with a branch line to Chipping Norton. The London and North-Western and the Great Central Railways also run through Banbury, and so does the Midland and Stratford Railway. On the other hand, Woodstock is on a single branch line with a change at Kidlington. To go from Woodstock into Oxfordshire one must go to Banbury or Oxford, while Banbury is in close connection by railways with all parts of Great Britain. Banbury has large municipal offices, and Woodstock has very small. Banbury is a growing town in the centre of a large agricultural area with a very large market, and is only second to Oxford, and Banbury has 12,000 more inhabitants than Woodstock.
When the Commissioners held their inquiry the case of the new name was brought forward by the Banbury Corporation, and no opposition was raised, and the first intimation of the name which has been suggested of Woodstock came before the Commissioners here. I cannot imagine that any claim comparable with that of Banbury can be put forward by Woodstock. Alphabetically the letter B is easier to find than the letter W, and probably that reason influenced the decision in the case of Batley and Morley. It may be that for family reasons opposition to the name of Banbury may be raised in another House, but I should prefer to put the case fairly and squarely on its merits and one case as against the other, and I think I have succeeded in showing the Committee that Banbury is a more rapidly increasing and populous centre as compared with Woodstock, and the name to be given to the new division should be that of the town which is situated most conveniently, which has the best railway and the place which is increasing in population.
4.0 P.M.
I wish to say a word or two in support of this Amendment on behalf of my hon. and gallant Friend the present Member for the Banbury Division (Colonel Sir E. Fiennes), who is unfortunately detained on military duties and cannot be here. He asked me to say that he associates himself entirely and heartily with the hon. Member, and after the splendid, and, I think, the completely unanswerable, case that the hon. Member has made, I do not need to say anything further.
As one of the electors of Mid-Oxfordshire, or what is now called the Woodstock Division, I feel I must say a word or two in answer to my hon. Friend. I cannot help thinking that this question of a name is hardly worth all the arguments and all the time that have been devoted to this and similar cases. I merely rise to offer the suggestion that the division should be called neither Banbury nor Woodstock, but what it is, North Oxford.
This is a question of name. Banbury is the larger and more important place, but Woodstock is an old name, and has associations in the county, and the Commissioners have chosen it. We have not heard the views of the hon. and gallant Member for Woodstock (Colonel Hamersley) who is detained elsewhere on military duties, and in his absence I do not like to decide the case. I should have thought that the simple conclusion would have been to have called it neither
Surrey … — — Eastern … The Rural District of Godstone, and the Urban Districts of Caterham and Coulsdon and Purley.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the word "Eastern," and to insert instead thereof the words "Caterham Valley."
In view of the conciliatory spirit shown by the Home Secretary in considering Amendments which do not touch the principle of the Bill, I trust that he will be able to accept this Amendment. The name of Caterham Valley is felt by many to be more distinctive and preferable than that of the Eastern Division, as suggested by the Bill. Caterham Valley really runs through the most populous part of the constituency and is the main highway and means of communication from one end to the other. The old town of Caterham is very nearly the centre of the constituency, and it is supplied with the best railway and omnibus service. It would almost certainly be the place where the votes would be counted and the result proclaimed. The bulk of the population reside in the Caterham Valley and the name is agreeable to both political parties, influential members of each having been consulted. A parallel case
West Sussex The Administrative County of West Sussex Two Chichester The Rural Districts of East Preston, Midhurst, Petworth. Westbourne, and Westhampnett, the Municipal Boroughs of Arundel and Chichester, and the Urban Districts of Bognor and Littlehampton. Horsham The Rural Districts of Horsham, Steyning West, and Thakeham, the Municipal Borough of Worthing, and the Urban Districts of Horsham, Shoreham-by-Sea, and Southwick.
I beg to move, in column 3, to leave out the word "Two," and to insert instead thereof the word "Three."
This Amendment would give another constituency and another member to West Sussex. I know that the right hon. Gentleman so far has not looked with friendly eyes upon such suggestions, but I hope in this case I shall be able to show sufficient arguments—and there are strong arguments—to make him regard the Amendment with favour. At present there are
Banbury nor Woodstock, but North Oxford, and that it would have suited everybody. I cannot accept that name to-day, but I shall be pleased to consider it between now and the Report stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
would be that of the Colne Valley Division of Yorkshire. The acceptance of this Amendment would be a concession to local sentiment, and I trust it will commend itself to the Home Secretary and to the Committee.
This, again, is a question of names. No doubt part of the constituency is in the Caterham Valley, but the greater part is outside it.
The greater part of the population is in the Caterham Valley.
I will not dispute the figures with my hon. Friend. At all events, I have had two communications from places in the division outside the Valley strongly objecting to the name proposed. That being so, I should not like, in the absence of agreement, and I know there is no agreement, to accept the change. I will not dispute about names, but myself I should have chosen not Caterham Valley, but Godstone, a place which is well known.
Amendment negatived.
six county constituencies in Sussex, three of them in East Sussex, two in West Sussex, and the remaining constituency which I have the honour to represent partly in the East and partly in West Sussex. Since the Local Government Act of 1888 the county has been divided into two county council areas, and the Boundary Commissioners, acting under the Instructions given them, have felt that the member representing my division cannot, as it were, be divided into two, half in East and half in West Sussex, but must be in either one or the other. Consequently, they have added a member to East Sussex, and left West Sussex with only two members instead of two and a half members. Under the Bill Sussex therefore will be represented by four members for East Sussex and two for West Sussex, instead of three and a half for East Sussex and two and a half for West Sussex. That creates a very serious difficulty. The result will be that in West Sussex you will have an average population per division of 91,000, whereas in East Sussex the average population will only amount to some 64,000. You have transferred more than half the Mid-Sussex Division to West Sussex, with the result that their votes will be depreciated in value to the extent of some 50 per cent. You will be creating in West Sussex two of the largest county constituencies in the whole of England. Moreover, by throwing into the division of Horsham, the area which I at present represent, the large urban area of Worthing, Shoreham-by-Sea, and Soutbwick, you will be swamping the agricultural vote, which is represented in the present division of Horsham. Really the position is somewhat extraordinary. I find that of the six largest county constituencies in the whole of England, two are West Sussex constituencies. The six largest constituencies are the two in Sussex, Horsham and Chichester, Wansbeck, Woodgreen, Stourbridge, and Dartford. The other four constituencies have not the rural character of the Sussex constituency, and no other county is in the position of having two such very large agricultural constituencies.
The population in West Sussex is increasing, and increasing rapidly. In the last ten years the population of Worthing has increased by some 34 per cent., the population of Shoreham by 22 per cent., and the population of Steyning West, which is more rural than the other places, by 16 per cent. Probably, therefore, the tendency in the future will be to still further swamp the agricultural vote by an increase of urban population. This proposal is frankly to have three constituencies for West Sussex—Chichester, Horsham, and a new constituency made out of Worthing, the urban districts of Shoreham-by-Sea and Southwick, and the rural districts of Steyning West and Thakeham. The population of the three constituencies, according to the calcula- tions in 1914, would then be: Chichester 64,000, Horsham 57,000, and Worthing 60,000; or, in other words, an average of 60,000, as against 91,000 proposed by the Bill. I find there are several other counties of a similar character—I have a list of ten counties here—which have a greater proportion of members. For instance, the East Riding of Yorkshire, which is very similar in character, will have an average population of 52,000; Dorset will have four members with an average population of 57,000; Wiltshire five members with an average population of 58,000; and West Suffolk two members with an average population of 58,000. We propose three members for West Sussex with an average population of 60,000, which is very likely to increase, and which, from the figures we have drawn up, probably at the present time would amount to 61,000. I know that there are natural objections to increasing the number of Members of this House. We all, more or less, share those objections, but, after all, the electorate grows and must grow, and an increase is unavoidable. Some increase has already been made by the Commissioners in the case of borough members, accentuating the disproportion in the representation of agriculture in this House. The concession of one more member for West Sussex—and I think our case is a very strong one—would go far to remove that disproportion. The suggestion I put forward is supported by both parties in West Sussex, by the West Sussex County Council, by the rural district councils, and practically by everybody concerned. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be inclined to give us a favourable answer, because I feel the matter is an urgent one. If the concession is not made very large constituencies will be created, and probably in a very few years, owing to a further increase of population, we shall have great demands for my suggestion to be carried out.
As representing the constituency nearest to Horsham and in the absence of the hon. and gallant Member (Captain Earl Winterton), who represents that division, I desire to support this Amendment. A very strong case is made for giving West Sussex an extra member. The Committee will remember that Sussex is constituted of two Ridings Each has its separate Quarter Sessions, a separate count council, and each is, therefore, an entirely separate administrative county. It is from the point of view that West Sussex is a separate county that this question has to be approached. There is no county in England or Wales, and I am not aware of one in Scotland either, that has been treated in the same way as West Sussex. Its population in 1914 was something like 182,000. The Commissioners have divided that large population into two constituencies, making that of Horsham 93,000 and Chichester 89,000 odd, or practically 90,000. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Lewes Division (Colonel Campion) has pointed out what is a fact, that Horsham is the largest county constituency under this redistribution scheme except one, the Wansbeck Division of Northumberland. Therefore, the county of Sussex is divided into two, which are practically the two largest county divisions in the country. In each county where there is one overwhelming division, such as Northumberland, the other divisions are small, and the uneven distribution of representation is thereby compensated. For instance, adjoining the Wansbeck Division you have the Hexham Division, with something between 55,000 and 60,000 population. Another point is that, although I do not say the Commissioners have not carried out their Instructions, yet I would strongly impress on the President of the Local Government Board the fact that Rule 6 of the Instructions says that in making a new constituency there should be one member in a new Parliamentary county or borough for the first 70,000 of population, one for the next 70,000, and a third member for the next 50,000 or more.
In this case, if you take the figures for 1914, on which I suppose the Commissioners have acted, it is true that the population of 182,000 or 183,000 makes West Sussex about 7,000, and only 7,000, short of the full number to justify a third member. At the local inquiry held before the Sub-Commissioner the West Sussex County Council put forward the figures of an actuary which showed that at that date the population of West Sussex had increased since 1914 and was then no less than 193,000. Therefore, according to the figures at the time of the inquiry, and now, West Sussex is, under the strict interpretation of this rule, entitled to its three members. With an area increasing at the rate I have mentioned where the the numbers at the present time, according to the rule, are more than sufficient to give West Sussex a third member, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to say why it should not have it. I would ask the Committee to look at the matter in a different way. Taking the actual figures in 1914, the average size of a county constituency in England is about 68,000. On the figures of 1914, which show 183,000 population, there would be an average of 60,000, so that leaving out the increase there has been since that year, if you gave West Sussex three members, the average for each constituency would be getting on for 61,000, or well over the 60,000. My hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Campion) gave the figures with regard to Norfolk, the East Riding of Yorkshire, Cumberland, Dorset, and the Lindsay Division of Lincolnshire. If you take those figures you will find that each of those has an average well below 60,000, and that it falls even as low as 52,000.
May I correct my hon. Friend as regards Norfolk?
I mentioned Norfolk, but I was thinking of the West Suffolk Division. I had the Norfolk figures for another purpose. In Norfolk it is about 64,000. I had the Norfolk figures in mind only for the reason that Norfolk is in many respects a similar division to West Sussex, inasmuch as it contains a large seaboard, and has the seaside places of Cromer, Mundesley, and one or two others. Further, Horsham Division is a large seaside place, with Worthing, Shoreham and Southwick, and it has a sea port. However, I will leave Norfolk out of the question for my hon. Friend (Mr. Ingleby) corrected me quite rightly. On the figures of 1914, a very strong case is made out for West Sussex having this extra member. I would ask the Committee to look at the matter from another point of view, and to consider how the Commissioners have treated West Sussex and, more particularly, the Horsham Division. That division adjoins my own, and I am well acquainted with it. It is a purely agricultural division. It has no industry of any sort or kind in it that is-not connected with agriculture. It has a large area. The distinguishing feature of Sussex is that the main dividing line is the South Down Hills, which run east and west of Sussex. North of the South Downs we have an agricultural and residential population. The whole population north of the South Downs is agricultural and rural. South of the South Downs it is totally different. There you have a seaside population. It is on the fringe of the sea, there is a very large seaboard, many seaside places, and many maritime places. Practically the whole of the people south of the South Downs are divided into two classes, one connected with the maritime industry—for you have places like New-haven, where there is shipping, and fishing, and that sort of thing—and the other class connected with the seaside industry and the catering for visitors at seaside resorts. Not only is there no community of interest, but there is practically no intercommunication between the north and the south.
Into this purely agricultural division of Horsham the Commissioners have pitch-forked the borough of Worthing, a purely seaside place for residents and visitors, which contained a population of 32,000 in 1914, which has increased to 36,000 now and is still rapidly increasing. Not one per cent. of the people in Worthing ever go to the Horsham Division, or ever want to go to the Horsham Division. There may be some who go from Horsham to Worthing as a seaside place, but there is no community of interest of any sort or kind between them, and no interchange ability of traffic. Now we have pitch-forked into the Horsham Division the municipal borough of Worthing, coupled with two seaside districts, Shoreham and Southwick, whose interests are purely maritime and seaside, and who have no agricultural interests at all. When the right hon. Gentleman and the Committee consider the figures we put before the Commissioners and those put forward by my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Compton) and myself, showing that the total population of West Sussex is more than sufficient, according to the Rules issued by the House, to justify the increase, they must admit that an unanswerable case is made out for West Sussex. There are only one or two other points to which I wish to refer. The first is the objection which the Home Secretary apparently has to any addition in the number of members allotted. May I impress on him that by this redistribution scheme the number of borough members has already been increased by thirty-one, while the number of county members has been decreased by one? If this country is given three members instead of two, the alteration will only have the effect of restoring to the counties the numerical strength which they now possess. For my part, representing an agricultural constituency and taking a great interest in agriculture, I do not think that the agricultural interest is going to have its proper representation—indeed, in my opinion it will not have more than two-thirds of the representation it had before, because everyone knows that, under the Regulations the merging of boroughs into counties will cause the agricultural interest to suffer by the domination of the industrial over the agricultural parts of the population, owing to its enormous increase. Therefore I again urge that the additional seat will only have the effect of restoring the number of county divisions to what it was before this new scheme was framed. My last point is this: No delay will be caused by acceding to this request, because the demand for three divisions for West Sussex has been agreed upon by every public body, every public institution, and every political body in the county. The adoption of the Amendment would give satisfaction to everybody. It would also be an act of justice, and would carry out the Rules which were passed by this House for regulating the redistribution scheme.
This Amendment is designed to give the Parliamentary county of West Sussex three members instead of the two which are assigned to it by the Boundary Commission. The case for three members as against two has been most ably argued by both my hon. Friends, and the Committee are in full possession of the very strong arguments that can be advanced for adding one more member to those already allotted to West Sussex, and making the complement three instead of two. No doubt the people of West Sussex are unanimous in their desire to have an additional member. It would be to them a great convenience. There are many merits in the case which has been presented by the hon. Members; but there is one invincible argument which has to be met, and that is that the House, during the last two days, when we have been discussing the various pleas put forward for "just one additional member here," and "just one there" has taken up a very firm attitude in resisting every appeal. We have had arguments put forward by the London Members for an additional four members. I am a London Member, but I feel obliged to go into the Lobby against the proposal, although I considered there were very strong arguments advanced by London in support of the case.
I heard only yesterday a most historic, delightful, and fascinating debate on the plea of York to be allowed to retain the two members it now has, yet, although that case was most ably argued, although the whole sentiment of the House was deeply stirred in favour of York, the House resisted the plea and declined to add to the number of members which the Commissioners had assigned to any place. We had later on a very passionate appeal from the Members for Wales for "just one more," and we shall probably have also a very strong plea put forward by Scotland that Caithness and Sutherland are each entitled to a member, instead of being joined together in Parliamentary matrimony. All the cases I have cited were very ably argued, and found much favour with the House, which, however, resisted the pleas advanced. The hon. Member who spoke just now suggested that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary did not look with a favourable eye on any proposed addition. But it is not my right hon. Friend who has not looked with a favourable eye on these Amendments; it is the House as a whole which has taken up that attitude. The matter has been tested time after time; but on each occasion the House has come to the same decision—that it will not add one member more to the total assigned by the Commissioners. I admit that the case of West Sussex is a very hard case; and if the House were on Report to alter its general decision, to alter its policy—if it were willing to add anything like another twelve members to the numbers now assigned, in all probability the county of West Sussex would be able to put in a good and substantial claim for one of them. But the House has taken the view strongly that it will not agree to the addition of one more member, either for the counties or for the Parliamentary borough.
My hon. Friend pointed out that West Sussex was only just short of the total population required for three members, and he pointed out that under the Instructions given to the Commissioners they were at liberty to depart from the 70,000 and 50,000 limits where the circumstances seemed to justify it. The Commissioners were instructed by this House to take the estimated population of 1914, and my hon. Friend suggested that they ought to have taken into account not only the actual population, but if figures could be given to show that the prospective population entitled the county to another member they ought to take that into account as well. He urged that if it could be shown that West Sussex was growing at such a rate that it would in a short time have the necessary population its claim for an additional member should have been conceded. But the House has decided that prospective population should not be taken into account. It would, in the first place, have been difficult for the Commissioners to have estimated the prospective population, and, secondly, I would remind the hon. Member, who is a great champion of the agricultural interest, that if the prospective population had been taken into account it is not the agricultural interest that would have gained the additional members, but that the majority would have fallen to the industrial interest. My hon. Friend has reminded the Committee that thirty-one members have been added, to the total which would have been arrived at if the units of population—70,000 and 50,000—had been strictly adhered to. My hon. Friend rather seemed to indicate that all these thirty-one members had gone to the boroughs. Rut if he will look at the Report of the Commissioners he will see that the agricultural constituencies have gained very materially by the provision, that an additional member might be assigned on the ground that the defect in this respect was comparatively small. The counties of West Suffolk, Hereford, Leicester, Salop, Norfolk, Somerset, Yorkshire, Devon, Dorset, Lincoln, Cumberland, and many others have obtained an additional member in that way. If the hon. Member will look at another Instruction given to the Commissioners he will see that they were to avoid forming constituencies inconvenient in size or character. Under that Instruction to the Commissioners, undoubtedly these agricultural counties have obtained one member in addition to what they are strictly entitled under the 70,000 limit.
My point was that under the redistribution the county divisions get one member less than they now have.
That must be expected under any reconstruction. The increase of population is mainly in industrial areas. It is quite true that had West Sussex a population of 190,000 it would have been entitled to three members instead of two, but according to the Instructions given to the Boundary Commissioners they were bound to take the estimated population in 1914, and the figure in that case was 82,598, showing a deficiency of 7,402. That is a greater deficiency than the Commissioners have been willing to allow. If the House will turn again to the Report of the Boundary Commissioners they will see an additional member has been given in cases where the population is short—in one case by 280, in another 454 (that was in the county of Cornwall), and in another (East Sussex) 681. In Middlesex there was a shortage of 5,209 and Hertford of 5,433. In all these cases the defects have been overlooked and an additional member has been allowed. But it is a considerable
York, North Riding — — Scarborough The Rural Districts of Scarborough and Whitby, the part of the Rural District of Guisborough which consists of the civil parishes of Commondale, Darby and Westerdale, the part of the Rural District of Pickering, which consists of the civil parishes of Allerston, Ebberston, Kingthorpe, Levisham, Lockton, Marishes, Newton, Thornton Dale, and Wilton, the Municipal Borough of Scarborough, and the Urban Districts of Pickering, Scalby, and Whitby.
I beg to move, in column 4, after the word "Scarborough" to insert the words "and Whitby."
This differs from some similar Amendments which have been considered this afternoon, in that it is agreed upon unanimously by all the parties concerned. The two constituencies of Scarborough and Whit by have been practically amalgamated, and although the Commissioners were bound to give the name of Scarborough to the united constituency, it is desired to maintain to some extent the
York, West Riding — — Keighley The Rural District of Keighley, the Municipal Borough of Keighley, and the Urban Districts of Denholme, Haworth, Oakworth, Oxenhope, and Silsden.
I beg to move, in column 5, after the word "Oakworth," to insert the word "and."
I apologise for not having my Amendments on the Paper, but I only received this morning a mandate from the people directly interested to take action in this
jump from 5,433 to 7,402. The Commissioners had to draw some line and adopt some limit. The case of West Sussex is, I repeat, a hard case, but there are harder cases, and if the Committee should listen to the plea advanced to-day and give West Sussex one more member, I am quite sure that on the Report stage we shall have the fights put up by London, York, Scotland and other places renewed, and they will prevail very largely because the House will, as it were, have instructed my right hon. Friend and myself to add an additional member to the total already assigned. Although it is a case with which I have much sympathy, I trust that the House will follow in the footsteps it has taken up to the present time, and adhere to the rule wisely laid down not to add in any place to the number of members already allotted by the Boundary Commissioners.
Amendment negatived.
identity of Whitby, and therefore all political parties, and all those concerned with local administration, have agreed that is desirable that this constituency should be called Scarborough and Whitby, and therefore I trust the right hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment.
As all parties and all those who can be said to represent those local areas agree in the main, I most gladly accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
matter. The effect of my Amendments is to remove the urban district of Silsden from the Keighley Division and to restore it to the Skipton Division. I have a letter from the clerk of the Silsden Urban District Council, dated 7th November, stating that at a meeting of the council on 6th November it was resolved that the council protest in the most emphatic manner against the inclusion of Silsden in the Keighley Division.
Royal Assent
[Whereupon the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod, having come with a message for the House to attend the Lords Commissioners, the Chairman left the Chair.
resumed the Chair.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners;
The House went; and, having returned,
reported the Royal Assent to—
Representation of the People Bill
Again considered in Committee.
5.0 P.M.
( resuming ): The clerk of the Silsden Urban Council was instructed to ask me to use my utmost endeavours to have this decision altered, so as to allow Silsden to be retained in the Skipton Parliamentary Division. I therefore trust that the right hon. Gentleman, after consultation with the Boundary Commissioners, will accept the Amendments which I have placed on the Paper, for I assure him that there is very much indeed in common between Silsden and Skipton, and that there is really very little in common between Silsden and Keighley. I am glad that the President of the Local Government Board is here, because he will know that Silsden's connections with Skipton for local government and other purposes are most important. Silsden and Skipton together form a division of the. West Biding County Council; Silsden has two representatives on the Skipton Board Guardians; the headquarters for the police and Petty Sessions are at Skipton, and Silsden's four magistrates sit on the Skipton Bench. Civil cases under the jurisdiction of the County Court from Silsden are tried at the Skipton County Court; in educational matters Silsden is linked up with Skipton, and the office of the divisional clerk who serves the district is at Skipton. An old age pensions committee, is elected from Silsden and Skipton; Silsden has three representatives upon it, one of the three being the chairman of that committee; most of its meetings are held at Skipton, but occasionally meetings are held at Silsden. Silsden takes its share in the joint scheme along with the Skipton Urban District Council and the Skipton Rural District Council in the joint hospital for infectious diseases. The insurance committee for the district includes Silsden, and has its central office and holds its meetings at Skipton.
I do not think it is necessary to add anything more to show how many connections there are between Silsden and Skipton, none of which exist between Silsden and Keighley. I imagine that the only objection of the Commissioners would be the disturbance of the population of the two constituencies. By making this transfer the population of Keighley would be reduced to 66,664, but even then it would be within measurable distance of the 70,000. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to make this restoration. Silsden has always been in the Skipton Parliamentary Division. It has always been under Skipton influences, and the two towns and two districts are bound together by many ties of history, of pride, and of affection.
I am a little surprised that the hon. Member should have handed in a manuscript Amendment altering the boundaries of two constituencies. He must realise how very inconvenient that is, because it must be patent to everybody that if you add to or subtract from the population of a constituency the boundaries of which have already been published by the Boundary Commissioners, you must either add to or subtract from the members of another constituency. In altering the boundaries of one you dislocate the boundaries of another, and make alterations in that. I think everybody will agree that we ought to have these Amendments on the Paper, because otherwise there is no notice given to the members of the constituency the boundaries of which you propose to alter. If you alter the boundaries of A you involve an alteration of the boundaries of B, but the member representing B in this case receives no notice that the House is proposing to make this alteration. The constituents of Keighley, the boundaries of which the hon Member proposes to alter, are actually sending a deputation to their Member at this moment to consider various questions connected with the boundaries of that constituency. It is obvious that the Committee is not possessed of all the information it ought to have; neither are the constituencies possessed of the information they ought to have to enable the question of the boundaries to be considered to-day. The Amendment has not even appeared on the Paper, and this is a case where obviously, if the hon. Member thinks he has a good case, he should raise it on the Report stage, and should put his Amendment down in ample
Carmarthen The Administrative County of Carnarvon Two Carmarthen The Rural Districts of Carmarthen, Llandovery, Llanybyther, Newcastle in Emlyn, and Whitland, the part of the Rural District of Llandilofawr which is not included in the Llanelly Division, the Municipal Boroughs of Carmarthen, Kidwelly, and Llandovery, and the Urban Districts of Llandilo and Newcastle-Emlyn.
Amendment made: In column 2, leave out the word "Carnarvon," and insert
Aberdeen and Kincardine — — Eastern … The County Districts of Deer and Turriff inclusive of all Burghs situated therein
In the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Elgin Burghs (Mr. Sutherland), I beg to move the Amendment standing in his name—in column 4, to leave out the word "Eastern," and to insert instead thereof the word "Peter-head."
I move this Amendment, if for no other reason, in order to preserve my hon. Friend's rights when the Report stage is arrived at. The object of this Amendment is to substitute for the name of Eastern Division of Aberdeenshire the name of the Peterhead Division of Aberdeenshire. I think, as I said yesterday, that it is an unfortunate way of describing constituencies to do so geographically, by the use of North, South, East, and West, and that if possible such descriptions should be abolished and some historical name connected with the district substituted. This is a case in point, and the reasons for the desire of my hon. Friend to substitute the name of Peterhead for the name of Eastern Division are these: Peter-head is the most important town in the division. It is the seat of the Sheriff Court, and it is the headquarters of the Terri-
time to cause full notice to be given to all the members whose constituencies are affected by the change he wishes to make.
I have already apologised for not having the Amendment on the Paper, and have explained the reason. But after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman I certainly do not wish to steal a march on Keighley. I do not think that Keighley has any objection to this transfer of Silsden to Skipton, but I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment. In accordance with the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman, I shall, of course, be prepared to bring these Amendments forward in due order on the Report stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Instead thereof the word "Carmarthen."—[ Sir G. Cave. ]
torial Force of the neighbourhood. It is an ancient burgh, having been instituted three and a half centuries ago, and its importance as the chief town in Aberdeenshire was recognised in the Representation I of the People Act of 1868, where Peterhead was named as the town for the nominations and for the proclamation of the result of the election in that division. A stronger argument than that, I think, is my right hon. Friend's Instructions to the Boundary Commissioners for Scotland. No doubt he is perfectly familiar with them, but I desire to refer him to No. 13, which reads as follows:
"Where an ancient Parliamentary burgh loses its representation, the county division in which the burgh becomes merged shall be named after the merged burgh."
That Instruction precisely deals with the case which I am putting before my right hon. Friend. Peterhead is an ancient Parliamentary burgh three and a half centuries old. It now loses its representation, and the county division, according to the Instruction of my right hon. Friend, in which it becomes merged, namely, East Aberdeenshire, should be named—may I call my right hon. Friend's attention to
I am afraid I cannot agree with my hon. and learned Friend who has just spoken that the compass descriptions of constituencies are at all times unfortunate or that they may not even become historical. In regard to this Amendment I am afraid I cannot accept it. My reason is that the Boundary Commissioners proposed themselves to call this division the
Ayr and Bute The Counties of Ayr and blue, inclusive of all Burghs situated therein except the Burghs of Ayr, Ardrossan, Irvine, Prestwick, Saltcoats and Troon Three Bute and Northern The County of Bute, incl sive of all Burghs situated therein, and the County District of Northern Ayr, inclusive of all Burghs situated therein except in so far as included in the Ayr District of Burghs. Kilmarnock The County District of Kilmarnock, inclusive or all Burghs situated therein except in so tar as included in the Ayr District of Burghs. Southern The County Districts of Ayr and Carrick, inclusive of all Burghs situated therein except in so far as included in the Ayr District of Burghs.
On behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr burghs (Sir G. Younger), I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the words "Bute and Northern, and to insert instead thereof the words "Northern and Bute."
As the Committee is aware, the constituencies of North Ayrshire and Bute are now joined together, and the object of this Amendment is that the name should be Northern and Bute instead of Bute and Northern. The population of North Ayrshire is, I believe, larger than that of Bute, and it does not seem unreasonable to make this change. I hope my right hon. Friend will consider its favourably.
I have some difficulty in accepting this proposal. I do not think the matter is one of very great importance, but it is a matter which gives rise to certain sentimental considerations. With regard to Bute, the Committee will remember that Bute is and was a county. Formerly Bute was a constituency by
Peterhead Division, but very strong opposition to that proposal was received by them at the local inquiry which was held. In these circumstances it would be very difficult—indeed, it would be impossibl—for me—
Will my right hon. Friend say whence the opposition came?
I cannot give my hon. and learned Friend the details, but in any case there was a local inquiry held, and there was local opposition to this proposal. I am afraid that I must adhere, and ask the Committee to adhere, to the scheme of the Commissioners. My hon. and learned Friend has quoted Rule 13, but if he will look at it I think he will agree that it has no application to a group of burghs of which Peterhead is one.
Amendment negatived.
itself. North Ayrshire was only part of a constituency. Under the circumstances, the Commissioners, taking a rather broad view of the Instruction:
"When the ancient part of any borough loses, its representation the county division in which the borough becomes merged shall be named after the merged borough."
thought that a certain amount of consideration might be given to a county which loses us identity through being merged in a new constituency. I think that justice is really done when one considers that the constituency as a whole is to be known by the name of Ayr and Bute. I think it is a gracious concession to make, that this division should be known as the Bute and Northern. At the present moment I am unable to accept the Amendment for the reasons I have given, but if any strong views are entertained locally and the matter can be represented to me before the Report stage it shall have careful consideration.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the word "Southern," and to insert instead thereof the words "South Ayrshire."
Perhaps the reasons which induced the right hon. Gentleman to refuse the last Amendment will induce him to accept this Amendment. Ayr and Bute are made into one Parliamentary county, and the county of Bute is allocated to the Northern Division. You have the Bute and Northern Division, the Kilmarnock Division of the county of Ayr and Bute, and the Southern Division of the county of Ayr and Bute, whereas Bute has really nothing to do with the Southern Division. As the name of the Southern Division was South Ayrshire, we want the name kept intact. Though it may have been desirable to amalgamate the Parliamentary counties, when you come to specify the name of the Southern Division I submit that it is a concession to popular feeling and more appropriate to give it the old name, so that it may still be colloquially known as the South Ayrshire Division. There is no reason to depart from that name. We are proud of Ayrshire; it is the land of Burns, and we do not quite fall in with the wishes of some people to "Butefy" us.
As the hon. and learned Member has said the Parliamentary
Fife … … — — St. Andrews The Cupar and St. Andrews County Districts, inclusive of all Burghs situated therein, together with the Burgh of Leven and so much of the Kirkcaldy County District as is contained within the extra-burghal portion of the parish of Scoonie and the parish of Kennoway.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the words "St. Andrews," and to insert instead thereof the word "Eastern."
The county of Fife, until the legislation of 1884–5, was an undivided county, but, by the legislation of that time, it was divided into the Eastern and Western Divisions of Fife. With the exception of the first five or six months of the period which has elapsed since then, I have had the honour to be the representative of the Eastern Division of the county. I share, I will not say the distinction, but the privilege with, I think, very few other Members of this House, of having represented my division for nearly thirty-two years, and never having represented or tried to represent any other constituency in the United Kingdom. I, therefore, have a personal interest in maintaining
county is described as Ayr and Bute. It has been divided by the Commissioners into three parts, one division being called the Southern Division of Ayr and Bute. It seems to me, with all due respect to my hon. and learned Friend, that that is quite correct a description, and that is the view which the Commissioners took. I quite appreciate his point of view, and there is no substantial difference between us. On the other hand I have some hesitation in altering the name which has been announced by the Commissioners, and to which no exception has been taken locally as far as I know, without any communication from the locality. I should prefer—and I am sure my hon. and learned Friend will not misunderstand my attitude—to reserve a final decision on this matter until the Report stage, and if I am satisfied from the constituency that the views propounded by my hon. and learned Friend are those entertained there, I shall not hesitate to accept this Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
The next Amendment which stands in the name of the hon. Baronet (Sir G. Younger) is out of order.
the name which now for a generation past has been assigned to this division. But this is not in any sense a personal matter; it is really a question, as I am sure my right hon. Friend (Mr. Munro) will agree, of the opinion and sentiment of the community concerned. East Fife is in many respects an ideal constituency. I am not referring merely to the level of intelligence of the electors, nor to their fidelity to their principles, but to the fact—which is very rare in any part of either England, Scotland, or Wales—that it is to an unusual degree a composite constituency. We have agriculturists, fishermen, miners, factory workers, and, now that St. Andrews Burghs are going to be added to us, we shall have an infusion of learned professors and the habitues of the Royal and Ancient Club which is the legislative centre of the world of golf. I doubt very much whether anywhere in the United Kingdom you will find so composite, representative a conglomerate of interests, classes, and opinions.
In regard to the proposed change of name, I think the House ought to know that the proposal is to give the constituency the name of "St. Andrews," a very ancient and distinguished city of Scotland. The St. Andrews Burghs consists of seven burghs, with a total population of about 18,000, of, which St. Andrews has, I think, 7,600. The other burghs in the constituency, which are not included in the St. Andrews Burghs and have always been part of East Fife, have a population of 19,000, so that the total urban population is about 38,000. The rural population is about 32,000, and it is an extremely anomalous thing, to say the least, that in a constituency so composed the whole should take its name, both the urban and the rural parts, from a single burgh which represents a population very little more than one-tenth of the total population of the constituency. As regards the old constituency of East Fife, it is absolutely unanimous in desiring to retain its name. I do not think there is a single person in any part of East Fife who wishes that the name should be changed; and so far as the added burghs are concerned, St Andrews, I have had communications which have reached me from provosts and other representative men in Anstruther, Crail, Cupar—the county town—Kilrenny and Pittenweem, all of whom prefer the designation of East Fife for the new constituency instead of that of St. Andrews. So that it is really a case of Athanasius contra mundum. Nobody outside the purlieus of the ancient city of St. Andrews
Forfar … The County of Forfar, inclusive of all Burghs situated therein except the County of the City of Dundee and the Burghs of Montrose, Arbroath, Brechin, Forfar and Kirriemuir One — —
is in favour of the change of name from its old designation. I cannot imagine a stronger case in favour of a conservative policy, and I hope my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland, can see his way to give effect to what I believe to be, if not the practically unanimous, certainly the overwhelming opinion of the whole of the constituency that it should be allowed to be called in future as it has been in the past the Eastern Division of Fife. My hon. Friend and colleague (Mr. Adamson), the newly-elected Leader of the Labour party, who represents the Western Division of Fife, has been allowed under the scheme to enjoy the elegant simplicity of his point of the compass, and I do not see why I should not be allowed to do the same. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will agree to leave things as they are and not to introduce this unnecessary change
No one would willingly alter the name of a constituency such as Midlothian or West Birmingham, associated as they are with great traditions of the past. I am equally unwilling to be a party to the alteration of the name of a constituency so closely and long associated with my right hon. Friend. I have no ambition whatever to play the role of Athanasius contra mundum. Accordingly, as the right hon. Gentleman has satisfied—I think he has satisfied—every person who has listened to him that this is the overwhelming wish of the constituency, and inasmuch as there is no opposition in any quarter of the House to the proposal, I have the greatest possible pleasure in accepting the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In column 2, after the word "Brechin," insert the word
Lanark … — — Southern … The Upper Ward County District, inclusive of all Burghs situated therein, together with the part of the Middle Ward County District which is contained within the parishes of Avondale, East Kilbride, Glassford and Stonehouse.
I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the word "Southern" and to insert instead thereof the word "Lanark."
Under the scheme of redistribution the county of Lanark outside Glasgow is divided into seven parts. Five of those parts are named after the leading burghs in each division, while two of them are named the Northern and the Southern Division respectively. In the Northern Division there is no borough of any kind, I am told, which could give a name to that division; but, on the other hand, in the Southern Division there is the old historic capital of the county, one of the oldest burghs in the county, the oldest, I believe, with the single exception of Rutherglen, which antidates it by a few months. I think that the example followed in the other five constituencies should be followed in the Southern Division and that it should be known as the Lanark Division of the county. I had intended to support my Motion by reference to Instruction 13 to the Commissioners where an ancient Parliamentary borough loses its representation the county division of which the borough becomes a part should be named after the borough. But I am told that that Instruction was not intended to apply to the separate boroughs of a group of boroughs, but, only to the case where a borough had a separate representation of its own If that is so, I am not quite sure on what, grounds the Committee suggested that the Eastern Division of Fifeshire should be called the St. Andrews Division, because St. Andrews had never got a representation of its own, and, so far as I could see, had no more title to give its name to the division in which it is merged than the burgh of Lanark has to give its name to the division in which it is merged. Of course the reason for the change is a sentimental one. There is a very prevalent feeling of discontent among the burghs in Scotland that the burgh representation has been
"and." Leave out the words "and Kirriemuir."—[ Mr. Harcourt. ]
merged in the county representation, and that feeling might be modified if the burghs so merged did give their name to the divisions of which they are part. Lanark has a special claim, because there is no other burgh in the division except one small burgh, Biggar, that has a population of a little over 1,000, while the population of Lanark is 7,000. On these grounds I hope that my right hon. Friend will accept the Amendment as he has accepted the Amendment of my right hon. Friend the Member for East Fife.
As the person who has at present the high privilege of representing the Southern Division of Lanarkshire, I would like to express my view, though it is not a very definite one I have considerable sympathy with the proposal that this very ancient burgh, which is now added for the first time to the Southern Division of Lanarkshire, should give its name to the division On the other hand, I would be quite content with the present title The only reason which leads me to prefer the change is this— that many good-minded but misguided people are fond at present of calling the constituency South Lanark instead of South Lanarkshire, and certainly the Lanark Division would be an improvement on South Lanark, but I have no great predilection one way or another.
I am very much in the position of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Lanarkshire. The Commissioners inform me that they had no local representations on the matter, and therefore I have a difficulty in accepting right away the Amendment of my hon. Friend. I would prefer to leave this matter over to the Report stage, and I am quite willing to accept the suggestion if I am satisfied between now and then that the alteration is desired.
Amendment negatived.
Perth and Kinross The counties of Perth and Kinross, inclusive of all burghs situated therein Two Perth So much of the County of Perth as is contained within the Eastern or Blairgowrie and Perth County Districts, inclusive of the City of Perth and all Burghs situated within the said County Districts. Kinross and Western The County of Kinross, inclusive of the Burgh of Kinross, together with so much of the County of Perth as is contained within the Central, Highland, and Western County Districts, inclusive of all Burghs situated therein.
I beg to move, in Column 4, to leave out the words "Kinross and Western" and to insert instead thereof the words "West Perthshire and Kinross."
I regret the absence of my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate, who, with many other distinctions, has the somewhat rare one of being a native of Kinross. I should like to have appealed to him as to whether there was any real desire on the part of the natives of Kinross that that name should remain as it is in the Schedule. So far as Perthshire is concerned, there is great objection to the name in the Schedule. The name Perthshire disappears altogether. As the name is the Kinross and Western Division it is almost certain that the member for this division will come to be known in this House as the member for Kinross. With one exception Kinross is the smallest county in Scotland. It has a population of something over 7,000, and an area of 81 square miles. In the first Parliament of Great Britain, elected in 1707, Kinross shared representation with Clackmannan, and has continued to do so ever since. Prior to 1832 the return was made alternately by the two counties, and the member for this constituency was known in alternate Parliaments as the member for Clackmannan and the member for Kinross, so that the name of Kinross was often absent entirely from the Parliamentary records. Since 1832 Kinross has been the junior partner in the firm of Clackmannan and Kinross. In this Schedule it is raised to the position of senior partner, in the new combination with West Perthshire division, which has had separate representation from 1885, has six times the population of Kinross and about twenty times its area. It is very difficult to conceive any valid reason for the name as it stands in the Schedule unless it is a recognition of the great ability with which Clackmannan and Kinross have long been represented in this House. I would appeal to my right hon. Friend (Mr. E. Wason) that he will not use the whole of his influence and weight against this Amendment, and I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, if he is unable to accept this Amendment at this stage, to consider the question of doing so later on.
I hope that the Government will not accept this Amendment. I have represented the combined counties I of Clackmannan and Kinross for a period of nearly eighteen years. Much against our will we are being torn asunder. We prefer to remain united. A portion of East Stirling has been added on to Clackmannanshire which is the smallest county in Scotland or, I believe, in Great Britain, and the division will be known as Clackmannan and East Stirling. So far as Kinross is concerned is has annexed West Perthshire. In Kinross there is a unanimous feeling among Liberals, Conservatives and Labour men that Kinross should retain this name. It is not asking a very great deal. There is no reason whatever why the name should not stand as the Boundary Commissioners have appointed it. I have no selfish motive in this, and I am sure that my hon. Friend has not, because we are not likely to fight each other. He alluded to the distinguished men who have represented this constituency and whose names go back in Scotland for the last hundred years. I remember my predecessor very well, a very much respected Member of this House, who became Lord Justice General and when elevated to the peerage took the title of Lord Kinross, and also his predecessor, Sir W. P. Adam, who was the Liberal Whip in Mr. Gladstone's time. But I do not want to pursue this. I will merely say that it is the unanimous wish of the people of Kinross that Kinross should have the same privilege given to it as Clackmannan has and that the division should be known as Kinross and West Perthshire.
I have difficulty in accepting this Amendment for the simple reason that it is opposed. It is different in that respect from quite a number of Amendments which I have recently considered. Allusion has been made to my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate, but I should be very much surprised if he supported my hon. and gallant Friend in this matter. I rather think that he would be found allied with my right hon. Friend in maintaining the status quo. However that may be, I think that the Commissioners took the view that this was a graceful and not an unreasonable compliment to be paid to a little county which had lost its separate Parliamentary representation. To that view I shall invite the Committee to adhere, if for no other reason than the Amendment is vigorously opposed in this House. This course conforms with the principle which has been followed in these matters.
PART III.—UNIVERSITIES. Description of University Constituency. Number of Members. England and Wales— The University of Oxford 2 The University of Cambridge 2 The University of London, the University of Durham, the Victoria University of Manchester, the University of Wales, the University of Liverpool, the University of Leeds, the University of Sheffield, the University of Birmingham, and the University of Bristol 3 Scotland— The University of Edinburgh, the University of St. Andrews, the University of Glasgow, and the University of Aberdeen 3
I beg to move to leave out from the words "The University of London" to the words "University of
The University of London 1 The University of Durham, the Victoria University of Manchester, the University of Wales, the University of Liverpool, the University of Leeds, the University of Sheffield, the University of Birmingham, and the University of Bristol 3
The object of this Amendment, which stands in my name and that of other graduates, is to secure the continued representation in the House of Commons of the University of London as a separate constituency. In other words, the object of the Amendment is to exempt from the repealing Schedule of this Bill the Clause of the Representation of the People Act of 1867, which distinctly states, in anticipation seemingly of any future legislation, "In all future Parliaments, the University of London shall return one member to serve in Parliament." I am quite sure that if the position and constitution of the University of London had been stated fully to the members of the Speaker's Conference, the proposal to reverse the decision of Parliament of fifty years ago would not have been entertained. Yet, as it was, I am informed that this particular recommendation of the Speaker's Conference was not one of those unanimous recom-
I desire to with draw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Bristol," inclusive, and to insert instead thereof the following,
mendations which have been regarded as sacrosanct by this House, and did not express the intention or the desire of many members of the Conference. Our Amendment is concerned with the University of London only. Whether the other eight universities, in which the Schedule proposes to group it, shall be represented by two or three members, or shall be differently grouped from the arrangements given in the Schedule, is a matter which, in the first instance, must be determined by the Government; and I can only say that, for my part, any decision at which they arrive will receive my willing assent. I desire, however, to take advantage of this opportunity—the first I have had—to express my gratitude to the Speaker's Conference for their generous recognition of the principle of university representation, and at the same time my conviction that the representation of the other eight universities, hitherto unrepresented, will add to the strength and dignity of the House of Commons.
It will be recognised that my Amendment does not modify any essential principles of the recommendations contained in the Report of the Conference; nor does it propose to introduce any new feature into the Bill which is founded on that Report. The principle of single-member constituencies has been already conceded and recognised in the Bill, and in the Instructions to the Commissioners. The only condition, I take it, for a single-member constituency is that the population shall be somewhere between 50,000 and 70,000. If we translate population into electors, it will be found that, even so, the University of London, as a constituency, is entitled to separate representation in Parliament. But the claim of the university to separate representation rests on other and more special grounds. It rests upon certain essential differences between the University of London and the other universities with which, in the proposed Schedule, it is grouped. Of these differences, perhaps the most important and essential is that the London University, according to its constitution, as embodied in the Statutes that have been approved by successive Parliaments, is the only university in the United Kingdom which exercises, in addition to its wide academic or teaching functions, other functions enabling it to confer its degrees on students, wherever and however they may have been trained, without distinction of race, or class, or sex, or creed, provided only that they pass certain stringent examination tests, which, under suitable conditions, are required by the university. When I say that these students may receive degrees without the university inquiring how they have been trained, it by no means follows that they have not received a sound education; because there at present exist in all parts of the country facilities, other than those provided by the universities, for the training of these students. I may further state that many of the students of the newer universities come to London to take their degrees because of the value of the degrees which London University is able to grant.
But there are other differences to which I must refer. Whereas the University of London, on its internal or teach- ing side, serves not only the metropolis, with its thirty miles' radius from the central offices, but also other parts of the nation and of the Empire, the newer universities, with the exception perhaps of Wales, which, in one sense, may be regarded as a national university, are distinctly local, serving generally, and intended to serve, local needs. In saying this, I do not desire for one moment to detract from their importance or their value in the scheme of national education. On the contrary, in providing, as they do, local facilities of higher instruction for students who might not be able to attend the universities of Oxford, Cambridge, or of London, and in the varied research work which they are now doing in an ever-increasing degree, these universities are rendering a very great service to the nation, and merit, as indeed they receive, a large measure of local support. But in the limited area of their operations, and in their constitution, they differ widely and essentially from the University of London.
I wish to refer to one other point. Our local universities are in nearly all cases what is known as single college universities. Some of them, such as Birmingham, Sheffield, and Leeds, have been developed out of technical schools, or schools of science, and they have gradually added to their faculties. London University, on the other hand, consists of a large collection of colleges and special schools, about eighty in number, scattered over the whole county of London, all of which are more or less closely associated with, and under the ægis of, the university.
Let me give some facts to illustrate what I have said, so that the Committee may realise the inappropriateness—I might almost use a stronger word, and say the incongruity—of grouping London with eight other differently constituted seats of learning. The University of London was founded in the year 1837—eighty years ago—and for the past fifty years it has been represented in Parliament; whereas no one of the other universities with which it is grouped in the Schedule has hitherto received Parliamentary representation. I may add, as an interesting fact, perhaps, that during the Debate on the Bill of 1867 it was proposed—owing to the small number, then, of London graduates—to unite the University of London with the University of Durham; but the proposal was rejected by both Houses of Parliament, owing, mainly, to the differences which existed between the constitution of London University and that of Durham. The University of London includes under its ægis three large and important classes of teaching institutions. First, there are the Incorporated Colleges, with endowments and other funds, which are administered by the Senate of the University. These comprise University College, Gower Street, and King's College, in the Strand, each of which is a complete university in itself, staffed by a large number of distinguished professors in all the faculties appertaining to a university. These colleges were founded many years before any one of the local universities was established; and I venture to think would compare favourably with the oldest and the best equipped. The second group of teaching institutions, known as the "Schools of the University," are 33 in number, and include the Imperial College of Science and Technology, with its several Special Schools of Applied Science; the School of Oriental Studies, recently opened by His Majesty the King, both of which have been established to meet not only local or national needs, but also our Imperial needs. Somewhat similar in its Imperial character is the School of Economics, the first principal of which was the present Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the present principal of which is the Hon. Pember Reeves, who was High Commissioner for New Zealand. These facts show to some extent the connection between this college and our Dominions.
6.0 P.M.
But among these thirty-three schools of the university are the eleven medical schools attached to our hospitals, six theological colleges; the Royal Holloway College; Bedford College for Women, and other institutions. The third class of teaching institutions, twenty-seven in number, include all our polytechnic schools, the laboratories of which are now rendering very valuable help to the Ministry of Munitions. They also include several training colleges for teachers and three or four colleges of music. I must not omit from the operations of the Senate of the University of London the organisation and direction of a vast scheme of University Extension Lectures, which brings to the poorer classes, and, indeed, to other classes of the county of London some of the advantages of university education. I find that in the session immediately preceding the War 135 courses of lectures were delivered on philosophy, economics, history, and other subjects, and were attended by 12,902 students. Let me further say that attached to the university itself are more than 100 professors, who, owing to their distinguished qualifications, have received from the university the title of professor. In addition to these, there are 1,200 recognised teachers. I cannot, I am sorry to say, now state to the Committee what was or what is the number of students; the War has diminished that number so considerably; but this I can say, that 21,000 members of the university are or have been serving in His Majesty's forces, and that of these nearly 700 have already made the supreme sacrifice. No ceremony connected with the university is more impressive, more simple, and at the same time more significant, than that which occurs at the monthly meetings of the senate, when the vice-chancellor reads to the senators, all upstanding, the roll of honour of our graduates and undergraduates who have given their lives in the cause of civilisation. At the meeting on 24th October last the roll contained the names of 183 members of the university. Their voices unhappily can no longer be heard, but the thousands of students now fighting in the different theatres of war would deeply resent the suggested partial and seemingly unfair treatment of their university, to which they are deeply attached—the university which has helped in so many different ways to build up our existing Empire.
Let me add one word to show that the university has not only been uniformly progressive, but has succeeded in leading public opinion in many different educational matters. It was the first university to admit students to its degrees, both internal and external, without a religious test. It was the first university in the Kingdom to require some knowledge of physical science from candidates for its degrees in whatever faculty they elected to graduate. This requirement has exercised a most useful and far-reaching influence on the curricula of our secondary schools. It was the first university to open its degrees to women, and the provisions of the present Bill, which extend the franchise to women, will add many thousands to the number of electors who are qualified to vote in the election of a Member for the University of London.
But I recognise that in considering the separate representation in Parliament of the University of London regard must be had to the relative number of voters in other universities. At the General Election in December, 1910, the number of graduates who voted at the University of Oxford was 6,895 and at the University of Cambridge 7,145, and at the University of London 6,072. The number of graduates, therefore, who voted at the London election was only 823, or about 15 per cent. less than those who voted for Oxford, whereas Oxford has been continued as a separate constituency, and has also the privilege of sending two members to Parliament, whilst London, with the modesty of comparative youth, is perfectly content to be allowed to continue to return one member. When we consider the number of electors who might be qualified to vote as graduates of the newer universities, we find this singular fact, that the total number of male graduates in those seven universities, namely, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Bristol, and Wales is, or was, when I obtained the figures two months ago, 10,237, compared with about 11,500 in London, showing that the male electors alone of London University exceed by more than a thousand the total number of male electors in all the new universities mentioned in the Schedule. If we were to include, as we hope to be able to do, the women graduates, the majority of London electors over the total number of electors in those seven universities would be very much greater. It may be noted that I have not included Durham University, which is an old foundation. I have not done so because I found it difficult to obtain from the authorities any accurate figures as to the number of its male or female graduates
I feel sure that the Committee will recognise that the proposed grouping of these universities in one constituency would be as unfair to the new universities, which probably would not be represented at all, and do not desire it, as it is to London University graduates, who, male and female, number at least 15,000, and who deeply resent it. If the University of London is to form one of a combination of nine universities, as suggested, not only would the cost of election be very much greater than it is at present, but what is far more important is that, the personal relations which during the past fifty years have existed between the member elected to represent the university and the graduates would be considerably lessened. There are many educational and professional problems peculiar to the London University, with which its member is expected to be familiar. There are problems affecting the position of large classes of His Majesty's subjects in all parts of the Empire which occupy from time to time the attention of the member, who is expected to be cognisant of the constitution and special needs of, the university. Those are the arguments which I have been enabled to use as reasons for not grouping London University with the eight other universities, and allowing it to retain its separate representation. From what I have said it will be seen, I feel sure, how dissimilar are the aims and the area of operations and constitution of the University of London from those of the eight other universities. If university representation is to be a reality, it is surely desirable that personal relations should exist between the member and his constituency. I, therefore, express the ardent hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accede to the request contained in this Amendment, and will not desire to repeal that Clause in the Representation of the People Act of 1867, to which I have referred. I beg leave to move.
As a constituent of the hon. Baronet who has just spoken, though never, I am afraid, one of his political supporters, I desire to endorse the plea which has been made by him for the acceptance of the Amendment, so far as it relates to preserving separate representation for the University of London. As a member of the senate of that body for more than twenty years, and three times vice-chancellor, I have had every opportunity of ascertaining the wishes of the graduates in regard to this proposal, and, so far as I can learn, there is a unanimous desire that the separate representation of the University of London should be perpetuated. I gather that the other universities proposed to be grouped with the University of London have, at any rate in some cases, passed resolutions against such grouping—and, indeed, I am not aware that there is any support to be found for the proposal as in the Schedule. I would remind the Committee that it is not a question at the present time between university representation and no university representation. Hon. Members in the past have been ready to sacrifice university representation on the altar of one man one vote, but that is not the question now before the Committee. Nor is it a question of proportional representation or no proportional representation. I myself voted for proportional representation at every possible stage in the proceedings on this Bill. I notice that some hon. Gentleman who were emphatically opposed to proportional representation for the boroughs are most ardent supporters of applying that principle to the universities. I venture to suggest that the Amendment is not repugnant to the recommendation of the Speaker's Conference. The Speaker's Conference said, "The representation of the universities shall be maintained." In the case of Oxford and Cambridge that maintenance is faithfully carried out. Each has preserved its two representatives, and that is so also in the case of Dublin. In the case of the Scottish universities they will have larger representation than they had before. In the case of the University of London alone is the representation not maintained, but merged, and I am afraid in future years, if the proposal is carried, it may be submerged.
During the discussions on this Bill many references have been made to the individuality of constituencies. I venture to think that the claim is not less in the case of universities. I remember some time ago reading a speech of Mr. Robert Lowe's in this House. He was the first representative of the University of London, and, indeed, Mr. Disraeli facetiously once said that the seat of the University of London was purposely made for Mr. Lowe in order that he might from that vantage ground help to defeat some of his colleagues of the Liberal Administration. In that speech of Mr. Lowe he said that as the polype takes its colour from the rock on which it grows, so do Members take their colour and character from their constituencies. The fault has been urged that university representation is too much of the same colour. Perhaps the University of London alone has shown a greater tendency to progressive Liberal principles than the other universities. Three of the four of its representatives in this House have at some time or other in their political careers been members of the Liberal party. A predecessor of the hon. Baronet, whom I had the rashness on one occasion to fight at a university election, shortly afterwards, I had the satisfaction to learn, crossed the floor of the House, although I think he did so without going through the formality of a re-election. There may be hope, therefore, for the hon. Baronet who now represents the University of London. I claim that the University of London has an individuality of its own. It was the first university to open its doors to women and to give honours and degrees equally to women and men. It was the first to establish degrees in science and in surgery. It has by its open external door and its collegiate institutions been the means of opening intellectual life to thousands of our citizens who never otherwise would have had the opportunity of attaining those distinctions.
If the University of London were grouped with these other provincial, local, civic universities, for which I have very great respect, I am afraid the three proposed members for them would in future in no sense be university representatives and would speak with no sense of individuality from the places from which they came. They would represent nothing but a fortuitous and heterogeneous concourse of academic atoms. I specially claim that the University of London should have the protection of this House. It is the only university, I think, that exists entirely by Act of Parliament. In 1898, by the University of London Act, this House abrogated the charter of the University and placed it entirely under statutory control. As the right hon. Baronet has reminded the Committee, in 1867, by the Representation of the People Act it was enacted that "in all future Parliaments the University of London shall return one Member to serve in Parliament." This is the first opportunity that the friends of the University of London have had of making this appeal on its behalf. There was no opportunity on the Instructions to the Commissioners. There was no opportunity on Clause 27. This is the first opportunity. It is true that the friends of the university went on a deputation before the Recess to the Leader of the House, and the hon. Baronet was a member of that deputation. I remember also that the late Sir George Radford accompanied us on that deputation. May I say, in reference to that hon. Member, that many of us, his friends, feel that this House is the poorer without him. On that occasion our representations were made to the Leader of the House and were very courteously received. The right hon. Gentleman stated that he thought that the University of London had an overwhelming case. May I, therefore, plead with the night hon. and learned Gentleman, who has shown such tact and conciliation through all the stages of this Bill in Parliament up till now, in this, the last, Amendment on the Paper, again to repeat his courteous assent to all reasonable appeals, and to accept this Amendment.
I have no connection with the University of London, and the voice of the university has been heard, and well heard, in the persons of the two speakers who have just addressed the House. I cannot, however, help thinking, as a very old London Member, that the voice of London itself might be listened to on this subject. I cannot myself imagine that it would be worthy of this House that this blow to the dignity of the University of London should be dealt now that London is, every day, standing out more and more as not only the capital of the United Kingdom, but as the capital of the Empire. That London in its successful effort to provide itself with university education should not be recognised as having done so in a measure which entitles it to Parliamentary representation appears to me to place it in an unworthy and invidious position contrasted with the other two great universities in this country. I have often heard it said that the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, to one of which I had the honour to belong, erred rather on the side of being in a sense abstractions and removed from the common life of the nation. Here we have a university which is situated in the centre of the most active and most important life in the whole country, influencing that life, and being reacted upon by it, and it seems to me that this is a special feature which entitles the University of London to retain its separate representation. So far from it being a large demand that this university should retain one member, I think the time may come when not only this country, but those who are interested in university education in the Dominions, will rather seek to give to the University of London two members. On behalf of those London members for whom I am entitled to speak, I would venture to urge very strongly upon the right hon. and learned Gentleman the claim put before him.
I should like for the sake of accuracy to point put that, notwithstanding what was said by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir W. Collins), the Government Schedule contains exactly the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. The hon. Gentleman read one quotation from the Report of the Conference, but he omitted to read the relevant part, which is paragraph 22. That paragraph, after recommending that the English and Welsh universities, other than those of Oxford and Cambridge, should receive representation, goes on to say:
"These universities shall be grouped with the University of London so as to form a single constituency returning three members elected on the system of a single transferable vote."
That is not consistent with the previous recommendation.
It is perfectly clear what that means. I do not for a moment think that the Conference intended to put any slight upon the University of London, but it had rather in mind the transferable vote. It was felt, too, that London University might agree to be the leader of this large group of universities, and to have, as its numbers show it is entitled to have, what would be equal to half a representation of three members, rather than to have a single member. The proposal was also made that the Scottish universities should be grouped in a similar manner. Apparently, however, the University of London prefers to stand alone, and to have no influence over the other universities. I think it is quite entitled to that representation if it wishes it, for this is a matter which closely concerns the university itself. The proposal, in the sense in which I am going to explain, will not add to the membership of this House; the result will be that whereas London and the other universities under the Government proposal would have three members amongst them, under the Amendment London will have one, leaving the other two members to the remaining English and Welsh constituencies. If that is the desire of the London University I do not desire to oppose it; I am quite willing to assent. I must just add this: The Amendment endeavours to show consideration for the other universities, for it suggests three members amongst them. That, to my mind, is rather more than fair according to the figures which I gave I the House in August. London University will have 15,000 electors, while the other universities would have three members with an electorate of 15,000, assuming an electorate for Durham of about 2,000 electors. Such an electorate would be barely enough to entitle them to two members, certainly not to three. Therefore I hope my hon. Friend will agree when I say that I am prepared to accept the Amendment with the substitution of the figure "2" for the figure "3" in relation to the universities other than London.
I desire to raise my voice in protest against the concession made by the right hon. Gentleman. It may be true that London University desires to remain in a state of splendid isolation, but the proposal made by the Speaker's Conference deserves, I think, more attention than has been paid to it by the proposer and seconder of this Amendment, or by the Government. The Teal question which was decided when the recommendation was made by the Conference was whether we were going to retain university representation or not, and it was decided that it was only possible to have a unanimous recommendation on the basis of proportional representation. Under this new proposal, so far at least as London University is concerned, there is no scope at all for proportional representation, and I question whether now, in regard to the other universities, you can have proportional representation with only two members; consequently you are really increasing the representation of a single party in this House by this change. In university representation, with the proportional representation system, there was the opportunity for minority representation. By the Government acceptance of this proposal there will be no opportunity at all for minority representation.
Oh, yes!
No. It does not, I think, apply to Oxford and Cambridge. In any event, it does not apply to London. I do not think it is a good system so far as the other group is concerned. It tends to give the minority more than it actually deserves. However, the real question comes to this: that what we may call the Tested interests of London—separate representation—should prevail over the fair representation of parties in the university. The claim is made upon a separate Representation extending for nearly fifty years. That is only a short time for a large vested interest to grow up. After all, though the hon. Gentleman has made a very interesting speech as to the characteristics of the university he has really not made out any sufficient case for giving London this special consideration. The London University is in no way identified with London, as the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Burdett-Coutts) tried to show. The main point of the speech of the Mover was that London University was not identified with London at all——
More than that.
I am content to point out the inconsistency between the arguments. It seems to me that you cannot claim a special position for London University on the basis that it specially represents London, and also claim a special position for it on the basis that it represents more than London. The arguments are mutually destructive. In any event, there is very much similarity between London and the class of students in London, and the class of students in the other modern universities. There is no clash of interests whatever. I think were London to be joined with other universities she would possibly have a larger share in the representation of the three members than she will have in this position of isolation. The only effect of isolation here will be to secure and to perpetuate the representation of London University by a member of the Conservative party. That would be contrary to the spirit of the Speaker's Conference, the object of which was to secure, as far as possible, minority representation at the universities. As this concession made by the Government is contrary to that, I, for my part, oppose it, and if anyone else will go into the Lobby against it I shall go with him.
I agree very thoroughly with what has just fallen from the hon. Member for Lanarkshire. It is quite certain that those of us who take the "one man one vote" point of view only agreed to university representation being, not only maintained but extended, and to the principle of university members being increased, on condition that the principle of proportional representation should be applied in such a way as to share the members among the different parties. That is done in the Scottish universities. It is done in an imperfect way in Oxford and Cambridge, and it was to be done in the case of the other universities linked together. Now the hon. Member for London University comes forward and succeeds in getting from the Government a promise that this shall be undone so far as London University is concerned, and that in that one instance the whole representation of the university shall be made a monopoly of one party in the State, and that the other members of the university shall be unrepresented, or rather represented by a politician who is the direct opposite of what they desire. If you wish to make university representation odious in the eyes of all democratic people, that is the way to do it, and I venture to say the Home Secretary in accepting this Amendment has done a very ill-service indeed to the whole idea of university representation in this House. If the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) goes to a Division, I shall certainly vote with him on that ground, and also because this is another departure from the compromise that was come to, and every one of these departures makes it less likely that the compromise as a whole will be accepted and will go through.
I was a member of the Speaker's Conference, and I must say, according to the best of my recollection, that the grounds on which the University of London was grouped with the other universities rested entirely upon one consideration, and that was to endeavour to give representation to the University of London and to the other universities that were linked with the University of London. I must say the real claims of the University of London were not made out as fully as they have been made out before this House, and most certainly I for one would never have consented to that university losing its representation if I had been as fully aware of the claims of the university as I have been made this evening. The object of this Representation of the People Bill is not to deprive of representation those who now worthily have it, but, where necessary, to extend it, and it was with no particular affection for either the alternate vote or proportional representation that these additions were made in connection with university representation. It was not considered something sacramental with regard to university representation.
I happen to be a graduate of the University of London. I did vote for proportional representation and for applying it to the university, but I see no reason whatever for the separate representation of the University of London being sacrificed to a political fetish of that sort, and I am perfectly certain that I am expressing the views of the graduates of London University when I say that the functions of the University of London are different from other universities. Students are examined who have no opportunity for collegiate education, and the fact that there are these non-collegiate opportunities make the University of London one of those institutions which is entitled to separate representation. We should, therefore, not be misled by the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire who, if he wants to apply proportional representation, may have an opportunity of doing it in Glasgow or elsewhere.
Perhaps I may be permitted to convey a message I have had from a very large number of my Constituents that I should support this Amendment. It seems that London University has been so beneficial to its many graduates, and they received such advantage from their attendance there, that it was not necessary for them to roam about many parts of the world, but many of them apparently have been very prosperous and contented to settle down in the adjoining constituency, which happens to be mine, Marylebone. I have been quite surprised to find that in my Constituency there are so many graduates of the university who take such a particular interest in this Amendment, and, as a London Member, I desire fully to endorse the remarks of the hon. Member for Westminster. There is another plea, perhaps, I may put in, and that is that my Constituency under this Bill will be reduced in representation to one member instead of two members, and I think it will be a measure of justice to some large number of my Constituents, who will no longer be represented fairly, according to my point of view, and who will welcome the opportunity of voting for the London University and so be afforded some little compensation. I hope the suggestion of the Home Secretary will be appreciated, and there is really no necessity to go to a Division.
I too, like the hon. Member opposite, have had a great many representations from members of my Constituency asking me to support this Amendment, but I confess I gave a non, committal answer. I confess that the arguments they set before me seemed rather poor ones. For myself, I prefer that members should not be sent to this House by universities, unless each is a known expert on some particular topic. In practice I do not think that is so. Of course, there are cases in which it is so, but if we look at the representation of the Universities at the present moment, and as it has been for the past few years, we cannot say that members sent to this House have been great experts in particular subjects. As a fact they have been largely, or to a certain extent, members who have been defeated or turned out from party seats in other parts of the United Kingdom. That is true of the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University, the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Agriculture, and the senior Member for Cambridge University. That is not what we want. If
The University of London, the University of Durham, the Victoria, University of Manchester, the University of Wales, the University of Liverpool, the University of Leeds, the University of Sheffield, the University of Birmingham, and the University of Bristol 3
and to insert instead thereof
The University of London 1 The University of Durham, the Victoria University of Manchester, the University of Wales, the University of Liverpool, the University of Leeds, the University of Sheffield, the University of Birmingham, and the University of Bristol 2
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule," put, and negatived.
Division No. 107.] AYES. [6.43 p.m. Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling Carew, Charles R. S. (Tiverton) Du Pre, Major W. Baring Amery, Captain L. C. M. S. Cator, John Fell, Arthur Archdale, Lieut. E. M. Cautley, H. S. Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Baird, John Lawrence Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Baldwin, Stanley Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich) Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Geddes, Sir A. C. Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Barnett, Captain R. W. Clive, Col. Percy Archer Goldsmith, Frank Barnston, Capt. Harry Clough, William Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Barran, Sir Row. Hurst (Leeds, North) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Greig, Colonel J. W. Barton, Sir William Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon). Gretton, Colonel John Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Beauchamp, Sir Edward Celvin, Col. Richard Beale Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich) Beck, Arthur Cecil Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J. Bethell, Sir John Henry Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) Hanson, Charles Augustin Bird, Alfred Cowan, Sir W. H. Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Blair, Reginald Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.) Blise, Joseph Craik, Sir Henry Haslam, Lewis Boland, John Plus Crooks, Rt. Hon. William Helme, Sir Norval Watson Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. Henry, Sir Charles (Shropshire) Boyton, James Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Hinds, John Brunner, John F. L. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Burdett-Coutts, William Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Burn, Colonel C. R. Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Hume-Williams, W. E. Campion, Lieut.-Col. W. R. Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Hunter, Major Sir Charles Redk. Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Parker, James (Halifax) Tickler, T. G. Ingleby, Holcombe Partington, Hon. Oswald Tillett, B. Jackson, Lieut.-Col, Hon. F. S. (York) Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Touche, Sir George Alexander Jardine, Sir John (Roxburgh) Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. Toulmin, Sir George Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Perkins, Walter F. Walker, Col. W. H. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Peto, Basil Edward Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince) Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Philipps, Captain Sir Owen (Chester) Walton, Sir Joseph Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Pratt, J. W. Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.) MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Watson, John Bertrand (Stockton) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Weigall, Lieut.-Col. W. E. G. A. Macmaster, Donald Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Whiteley, Herbert J. McMicking, Major Gilbert Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dewsbury) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Macpherson, James Ian Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen) Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea) Maden, Sir John Henry Samuels, Arthur W. Williamson, Sir Archibald Magnus, Sir Philip Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.) Marriott, J. A. R. Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Mason, James F. (Windsor) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Wilson-Fox, Henry Morgan, George Hay Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Liverpool) Winfrey, Sir Richard Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Wood, John (Stalybridge) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Spear, Sir John Ward Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgew) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A. H.(Asht'n-u-Lyne) Yate, Colonel C. E. Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Stanton, Charles Butt Young, William (Perth, East) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. H. Yoxall, Sir James Henry Nolan, Joseph Stewart, Gershom Nuttall, Harry Stirling, Lieut.-Col. Archibald TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Lord Edmund Talbot and Captain Guest.Lord Edmund Talbot and Captain Guest. O'Malley, William Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.)
under this Bill London University could have been grouped with Oxford and Cambridge Universities, returning five members under proportional representation, we could have had really a chance of getting five experts into this House, irrespective of party politics. Now we are simply going to have party politics over again. The hon. Member opposite hopes to get a member returned for the University of London to counterbalance a possible loss. We do not want that. If we have university representation at all we want experts in this House. For that reason, if a Division is taken, I shall vote against the Amendment.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment, with a view to moving it in the form suggested by the Home Secretary.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment proposed: To leave out
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 162; Noes, 34.
NOES. Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Arnold, Sydney Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Beale, Sir William Phipson Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E. Scanlan, Thomas Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W. Holt, Richard Durning Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Bryce, J. Annan Hudson, Walter Thorne, William (West Ham) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk) King, Joseph Watt, Henry Anderson Chancellor, Henry George Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Wedgwood, Lieut.-Commander Josiah C. Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Whitehouse, John Howard Doris, William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Williams, John (Glamorgan) Finney, Samuel Mason, David M. (Coventry) Glanville, Harold James Newman, Major John R. P. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —Mr. Pringle and Mr. Aneurin Williams.—Mr. Pringle and Mr. Aneurin Williams. Hackett, John Palmer, Godfrey Mark Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
Schedule, as amended, added to the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 99.]
Coal Mines Control Agreement (Confirmation) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
May I at this stage, Mr. Speaker, ask for your ruling on a point of Order to which reference was made at Question Time yesterday. The point I put is this. This Bill is, in fact, a measure to enact that an agreement entered into by the Coal Controller, the President of the Mining Association of Great Britain, and Mr. Guthrie, the Secretary of the Consultative Committee, shall have effect not only as regards the members of the Mining Association, but all those who own and win and sell coal in the United Kingdom. In order to carry this into effect it has become necessary for the Government to receive authority from this House, in the first place, to take from certain coal owners who are prosperous enough to have excess profits not only the 80 per cent. which is to go to the Exchequer, but a further charge of 15 per cent., which is to go into a fund to be under the administration of the Coal Controller. The object of that fund is, as I understand the agreement, to provide the Coal Controller with means whereby he can make good the deficiencies in the profits of the non-prosperous concerns. This agreement throughout is, in fact, an Amendment of the Finance Act of 1915 and the Finance Act of 1917, for in Clauses 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and, I believe, one or two other Clauses, including 21, Amendments are made in the operation of the Finance Act of 1917 to this extent, that coal owners who had excess profits under that Act were taxed to the extent of 80 per cent. of their excess profits, but under this agreement if legalised by Act of Parliament they will be taxed 95 per cent. of their excess profits.
I should mention that there is one limitation which is also operative on the fund in Clause 3, but that does not affect my main point, which is whether this Bill does in effect provide for a charge on the Exchequer or for an interception of revenue. When I raised the question yesterday I was informed by the Home Secretary that this Bill does not involve a charge on the Exchequer, and that there is no interception of revenue. The point I put is that it does involve a charge on the people, and that within the meaning of the Standing Order this is as truly a charge on the people as the original 80 per cent. Excess Profits Duty under the Finance Act of 1915; that it increases that charge from 80 to 95 per cent., in fact. If I may, I will refer to the Manual of Procedure, paragraph 166. It appears to be laid down quite clearly that to impose a charge upon the people must necessitate a Resolution of a Committee of the Whole House before the Bill itself can be taken here. It may be said that there is no charge upon the people in that sense, and that this is not an ancillary part of this proposal. As I understand the Bill—and I admit it is rather difficult to follow—its plain intention is to legalise the financial proposals; indeed, it would be unnecessary but for this adjustment of funds from certain colliery owners to be granted to others.
It will be impossible to contend that this Bill has not as its principle object the charging of money in certain cases and the granting of money in others. The other point I make is that not only does it provide for a charge on the people, but it also provides for a portion of the funds so raised and paid into the account of the Coal Controller to be paid out to certain non-prosperous collieries which, owing to administrative readjustments rendered necessary during the War, are deprived of their output and, therefore, of their profit. That would appear to me to be a granting of money to the people. It is, therefore, necessary that this Bill should originate in a Committee of Ways and Means and be founded upon a Resolution of a Committee of the Whole House. I have put the main points, but I understand there are some of my hon. Friends who would like to suggest that there are precedents for declaring that this measure, the sole purpose of which is to legalise the transference of funds in the way I have described, does indeed follow precedents which they can quote as late as 1904, and that it would be wise in this case not to proceed with the Second Reading now, but to put down a Resolution so that in Committee we could deal with it according to the ordinary procedure of the Finance Act.
I will make one other point. It may be said that this is an agreement which is merely to be legalised, but I would point out that this is an agreement made between the Controller of Coal Mines, the president of the Mining Association, and the secretary of the Consultative Committee. Neither the president of the Mining Association nor the secretary of the Consultative Committee have power to bind any person who dissents from their view, and so clear has it become that this is not an agreement of the whole of the coal producing companies or owners in the United Kingdom that only two days ago, by circular, those who represent over one third of the output of the United Kingdom protested against the decision of the Mining Association and repudiated this agreement. This is an attempt to use an agreement, entered into with certain parties which may provide a convenient way of carrying out the objects of the agreement, to use this as the basis of legislation to cover the whole of those engaged in the production of coal, and I submit that it is necessary that this Bill should originate in a Resolution of a Committee of Ways and Means.
The Standing Order which relates to this particular matter is No. 71. The effect of it is that when a Bill proposes to grant money out of the public revenue, whether payable out of the Consolidated Fund or out of money provided by Parliament or any charge upon the people, such Bill should originate in a Committee of the Whole House. The question I have to answer is: does this Bill come within that definition? Does this Bill contain a Grant or charge upon the public revenue? I do not find in it any charge upon the public revenue. The public revenue is payable into the Consolidated Fund, and there is no provision in this Bill or in the Schedule that any money should be taken out of the Consolidated Fund and given to any person. In my judgment there is no Grant or charge upon the public revenue either payable out of the Consolidated Fund or out of money to be provided by Parliament. There is no suggestion that Parliament should vote any sum in Supply which is to be made available for the purposes of this Bill. Therefore, I do not think it can be said that the first part applies. There is no Grant out of the public revenue payable either out of the Consolidated Fund or out of moneys, provided by Parliament.
7.0 P.M.
Then there is the question: Is there any charge upon the people? What does "a charge upon the people" mean? A charge upon the people, as I read it, means a charge which is made in the nature of a tax, which is paid to the Inland Revenue Commissioners, and which is paid by them to the Consolidated Fund and is available for all purposes for which the State may require it—Army, Navy, Civil Service, and what not. There is no such charge in this Bill or in the agreement. It is true that there is a levy, but in my opinion that is not a charge within the meaning of the Standing Order. The right hon. Gentleman suggested that this was an Amendment to the Finance Acts, 1915–17, but there will be none of this money coming to the Consolidated Fund at all. There will be no moneys available for the State, and therefore there is no taxation. The 80 per cent. of profits—called Profits Duty—which is now raised by the State will still be raised by the State and will still be payable to the Inland Revenue. In addition to the 80 per cent., there will be 15 per cent. which will be levied amongst a section of the people, the coal-owners of this country, but, although that 15 per cent. will be paid to the Inland Revenue Commissioners, it will not be paid by them into the Consolidated Fund. It will remain under the charge of the Coal Controller. It stands very much in the nature of the Compensation Levy which was raised in the case of the licensed houses, and which was money levied upon the owners of licensed houses for certain purposes which were indicated in the Bill. Indeed, it may be said that it is very much in the same position as the Munitions Levy which was raised in 1915 upon the extra profits derived by the manufacturers of munitions. There was no charge upon the people there in the sense that it was a tax imposed. It was a levy—I think it was even called a levy in the Bill—imposed upon certain people, and it was used for certain purposes. It is true that in that case it was eventually passed on to the Exchequer, and probably that is not so strong a case as this one, where the money does not pass on to the Exchequer. No provision is made in this Bill for it ever passing on to the Exchequer. What eventually may happen to it I cannot say but, at all events, in this Bill there is no such proposal. I think that disposes of the first point which the right hon. Gentleman raised that there is "a charge upon the people."
Now, as to the second point that there is a grant of money to the people: There is no grant of money to the people out of public funds. A Resolution in Committee is required if there is any Grant out of public funds, for instance, for the purpose of giving salaries to any persons employed, or in the numerous ways with which the House is well acquainted, but there is no charge made upon the public funds at all. Therefore, I feel bound to rule that this levy is not a Grant or charge upon the public revenue whether payable out of the Consolidated Fund or out of money to be provided by Parliament—it is not a charge upon the people—and as it does not come within the terms of Standing Order 71, I do not think that it is a Bill which ought to originate in Committee.
May I call your attention to paragraph 8 of the agreement, which is outside the point that has just been submitted to you? Paragraph 8 says:
"If at any time, in the case of any undertaking, it appears to the Controller, either on his own motion or on the motion of the owner, that there is no profits standard or that the profits standard"—
These are the words to which I wished to draw your attention—
"as ascertained under the Act"—
It means their Finance Act of 1915—
"cannot fairly be applied, the Controller shall fix, for the purpose of ascertaining the guaranteed standard, or the special standard, as a substitute for the profits standard, a sum equal to the average annual profits which might have been actually earned during the standard period."
Under this paragraph the Controller may override the Finance Act of 1915. If it does not suit him to accept the standard laid down by that Act he may override the Act and alter the standard. He may impose a different standard under which he may make the assessment which he wishes to make upon the coalowners. I venture to submit, as this particular paragraph clearly alters an Act which was founded upon a Resolution of the Committee of this House, that it is necessary chat this part of the Schedule at any rate should be founded upon a Resolution of the whole House.
If I may say so, the right hon. Baronet has rather misapprehended the object of this paragraph. The 80 per cent. Profits Duty which is now levied under the Act of—
The 80 per Cent. Duty was levied by this year Act.
The 80 per Cent. Profits Duty will not be interfered with. That must remain. The coal-owner in any event must pay his 80 per cent. That will go to the State in any case. All that this paragraph says is that the Coal Controller, if he finds in calculating the 15 per cent. levy that the standard fixed by the Act of 1917 would work unfairly, is entitled to fix a guaranteed standard, which is defined in paragraph 7 of the agreement. The effect of fixing a guaranteed standard will be to alter the 15 per cent., but it will not alter the 80 per. cent. The 80 per cent. profits will still have to be paid to the State, and I think the right hon. Baronet has fallen into error by omitting to give due weight to the words "for the purpose of ascertaining the guaranteed standard." Just let me read that paragraph again:
"If at any time, in the case of any undertaking, it appears to the Controller, either on his own motion or on the motion of the owner, that there is no profits standard, or that the profits standard ascertained under the Act, cannot fairly be applied, the Controller shall fix—"
not a new profits standard—
"The Controller shall fix, for the purpose of ascertaining the guaranteed standard—"
that is the new standard which he is to set up—
"or the special standard, as a substitute for the profits standard, a sum equal to the average annual profits which might have been actually earned during the standard period."
Therefore, the tax to which the coalowner was made subject by the Act of 1917 will still remain. He will still have to pay exactly the same sum to the State as he has paid, but this provides a sliding scale whereby the extra 15 per cent. in his instance, if he can show hardship, will be diminished.
After your ruling, I should like to raise another point of Order. As I understand, you have ruled that this Bill does not make any charge upon the people, and that no sum of money is going to be paid out of public funds to any person. That being so, I would like to ask whether this does not come to a certain extent, at any rate, within the definition of a private Bill? I would draw your attention to the opening words of the Preamble, which state this:
"And whereas questions have arisen as to the compensation to be paid to the owners of the several mines so controlled in respect of control and with respect to other matters arising out of such control:
"And whereas for the purpose of settling such questions an agreement, dated the 20th day of July, 1917, which agreement is set out in the Schedule to this Act, has been made, and it is expedient that the said agreement should be confirmed by Parliament and made binding on all persons whom the said agreement affects or purports to affect."
I would draw your attention to the Manual of Procedure, paragraph 162, where the object of a private Bill is defined as follows:
"The object of a private Bill is to alter the law relating to some particular locality, or to confer rights on, or relieve from liability some particular person or body of persons."
I submit it is quite plain that this Bill has for its admitted object the relief from liability of some particular person or body of persons. It guarantees certain of these coalowners against possible loss. If this is not a private Bill, it is certainly
"a public Bill which affects private interests in such a way that, if it were a private Bill, it would, under the Standing Orders, require preliminary notices before its introduction. It is subject partially to the rules of procedure which govern private Bills, and is usually called a hybrid Bill."
I respectfully submit, if this is such a Bill that it does not require to be founded upon a Resolution of the Whole House, then it is a Bill of a private or semi-private character which ought to go before the examiners before it is presented to this House for Second Reading. I would like to emphasise the very unfortunate position in which the dissentient coalowners are placed. They are not only deprived of the protection against unfair taxation which the Standing Orders allow, but, as the matter will proceed unless you rule that at least this is a hybrid Bill, they will apparently be deprived of their opportunity of putting their case, as they would like to do, before a Committee of this House by means of their counsel and agents.
I have not had my attention particularly drawn to this point, but I do not think the objection would prevent the Second Reading. It would be open to the hon. Member, after the Bill had been read a second time, to move that it be referred to a hybrid Committee, and of course before a hybrid Committee all private interests would be properly represented.
May I read again from the Manual, paragraph 169:
"A public Bill, where it affects private interests, must, after First Reading, be referred to the examiners of petitions for private Bills for the purpose of ascertaining whether the Standing Orders relative to private Bills apply, and have been complied with in the case of the Bill. This reference does not prevent the order for the Second Heading from appearing on the Notice Paper or on the Orders of the day, but the Bill cannot be read a second time until the Report of the Examiners has been received."
I have not had time to go into this point. The hon. Gentleman did not tell me that it was likely to arise.
I am afraid I did not know myself.
No doubt there are certain private interests affected, but that does not necessarily mean that it is a hybrid Bill. Public Bills very often affect private interests. I think the proper course would be that which I have suggested. I am prepared to hold, as at present advised, that it is not a hybrid Bill, but it will be open to the hon. Member, if the Bill is read a second time, to move that it be referred to a hybrid Committee, and in that case the House would have an opportunity of deciding whether it was or was not a hybrid Bill. The Public Bill Office, which is concerned in these matters more particularly, evidently did not think it was a Private Bill, or it would have been in the ordinary way sent to the examiner. Therefore, primâ facie, it is not a Private Bill.
With regard to your ruling, Sir, in which you said there is nothing in this Bill which necessitates the payment of moneys out of public funds, I would draw your attention to paragraph 4 in the Schedule, which provides that
"Such sum as may be required to make up the guaranteed standard, shall, subject to the provisions of Clause 13, be paid to the owner by the Controller."
If those funds are not public funds of the Exchequer and the 15 per cent. is not sufficient, as I suggest it will not be, to pay the guaranteed standard, do you suggest that the Controller himself is personally liable, and that his own private property is available for this purpose? I may tell you, Sir, that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill makes a different statement to your ruling, namely, that any deficit is to come out of public funds. I do not quite follow the difference between your ruling and the right hon. Gentleman's statement.
I take the Bill as it stands. There is no provision whatever in the Bill that any public funds should be used for the purposes suggested. If there should be a deficit, I cannot say how the deficit will be made up. There is no provision in the Bill with regard to that, therefore, as far as I am aware, and I only take the Bill as it stands, there is no provision made for meeting such a deficit.
Will you kindly answer my question, Sir, as to whether the Controller will be personally liable for any deficit?
The hon. Member must not ask me that. I did not draw the Bill. I am only interpreting what is in front of me.
Without in any way wishing to question your ruling, Sir, I should like to obtain your ruling with a little more precision, because the ruling that you have given is one of very great importance and may have a very important effect in the future. I should like to ask your precise ruling on Standard Order 71. I would suggest that the proposals there set out, for which a preliminary Resolution in Committee in Ways and Means is required, are alternative. The Standing Order runs as follows:
"If any motion be made in the House for any aid, grant, or charge upon the public revenue, whether payable out of the Consolidated Fund or out of money to be provided by Parliament, Or for any charge upon the people."
I would submit that the words
"or for any charge upon the people"
have no reference to the words
"whether payable out of the Consolidated Fund,"
and that, in fact, these are two alternative proposals. I therefore submit that in this case it is clearly a grant of money,
"or any charge upon the people"
in that it adds 15 per cent. to the 80 per cent. Excess Profits Duty which already exists. May I also point out that the effect of your ruling, that this Standing Order only applies in the event of the money being payable out of the Consolidated Fund, will have important results. If, for instance, an hon. Member won in the Ballot, he might, in effect, impose taxation by basing his precedent on this Bill, and impose a levy on a particular industry, payable to the Inland Revenue Commissioners, and thereby by himself do what, by the universal practice of the House, has only been possible to a Minister by means of a Resolution in Ways and Means. For further guidance, I would ask whether you would lay down precisely that a Bill which imposes a charge upon the people, but does not pay money into the Consolidated Fund, is therefore a Bill which does not require a preliminary resolution in Ways and Means.
I thought I had made that perfectly clear. I dealt with the question of a Grant or a charge upon the public revenue. I think we are all agreed that it is not that. There is no suggestion that any money is to be taken out of the Exchequer, or that at any time there should be any Vote in Supply in order to provide money by Parliament. Therefore there is nothing in that point. I thought I had made it clear that, in my opinion, the words
"any charge upon the people"
mean any charge in the nature of a tax which is to be paid into the Exchequer. There is no charge in the nature of a tax which is to be paid into the Exchequer under this Bill. The charge, or levy, as I prefer to call it, under this Bill—indeed, I think it is called a levy in the Bill—the levy is raised upon a certain limited section of the community, in order that it may be paid out to another limited section of the community. But it is not a levy upon that limited section in order that it may be spent on public purposes. A charge on the people means a charge in the nature of a tax, which is paid into the national Exchequer, and is used for a variety of national purposes.
May I refer to your statement, Sir, that a levy is referred to in the Bill, and point out that it is a different subject altogether from the 15 per cent. on the Excess Profits Duty. The levy is a voluntary levy, made by the owners of a district, if they wish to make it.
If I may, with respect, Sir, impose on your goodness, I would like to put another question. I would like to put this, as bearing on the interpretation, you have put on the words
"any charge upon the people."
It is not inconceivable that in the course of the discussion in this House the charge of 15 per cent. extra which may be imposed, and the later provision providing for the Controller paying to the collieries, if they were less prosperous, a grant under the terms of this agreement might be omitted. Would the 15 per cent. thus collected by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue still not bear the charge, although that amount had gone into the coffers of the Inland Revenue and was there retained, because there had been no provision made for the expenditure of the money? I only put the point to you as a Parliamentary possibility, because your ruling is of such great importance, and has such a profound bearing on the financial control of this House, in that it allows for the collection of moneys from the people to be made on behalf of a Minister, provided he is not the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I beg with great respect to put to you the further point I have described.
Would not that involve an alteration in the agreement?
Yes, Sir. But I submit that it is open to the House to amend the agreement when we come to the Schedule.
I do not think so. The Bill provides that this agreement be confirmed. The House has no power to alter the agreement. The agreement has been made between certain parties, and in my opinion there is no power to alter it. It is like a treaty made between two negotiating nations, which the House is asked to either accept or reject.
As a matter of fact, on the contrary, have we not every intention of altering the agreement? So far from being an agreed treaty, it is the draft of a treaty which will be very much altered before it passes.
That alteration will have to be made in the Bill. It cannot be made in the Schedule. There is the agreement, signed and dated the 20th day of July, 1917.
May I point out that Clause 2 of the Bill provides that if this agreement is not carried out, another agreement may be made which will be placed in the same position.
That is the effect of what I said. I said that the agreement, that is the Schedule, cannot be altered in Committee.
May I, with reference to your ruling, Sir, direct your attention to a provision in paragraph 21 of the Schedule, which says:
"If the total net amount paid as coal mine excess payments under Clause 3 during the whole period of control is certified by the Controller on the termination of control to exceed the total amount paid by him under Clause 4, together with his administrative expenses, the surplus shall be applied by him in reimbursing the fund created under this Clause to the extent of forty per cent. of the amounts paid thereout under the provisions of this Clause,"
and the remainder goes into the Exchequer.
No, it does not.
I submit that it does.
That is where the hon. and gallant Member makes a mistake. There is no provision for the remainder going to the Exchequer. I thought I had made that quite clear.
I can only appeal to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill.
It may be the intention of the Government or of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but there is no provision in this Bill for anything of the sort.
May I respectfully submit that there is another question, namely, that the levy of 15 per cent. will in all probability, and also in the judgment of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill and of the Controller himself, be insufficient to find the money for the guarantees. They both told me yesterday that any additional money which has to be found to make up these guarantees will be found out of the public funds. Would it not be better to regularise this proceeding and to say that this is a Money Bill, so that there should be no trouble arising in the future about the legality of the payment?
That has nothing to do with me. That is a point upon the merits, which the hon. and gallant Gentleman can put to the Minister in charge of the Bill. There is no provision for it in the Bill.
With regard to your ruling, Sir, that no alteration can be made in the agreement, I submit that there is no agreement, that, in fact, the Mining Association exceeded their powers and acted ultra vires in entering into the agreement, that eminent counsel have advised that the Board of Trade and the Coal Controller had no power to enter into the agreement and therefore it is not valid. The best proof of the Board of Trade and the Controller being aware of that fact is that, in the first place, they were going to force this agreement on the coal-owners until they discovered, apparently, that they had no power to enforce it and that there was no legally binding agreement. Hence we have them introducing this Bill in order to make it legal.
That is a matter for the House. Perhaps the hon. Member will address his speech to the House when we are discussing the Second Reading. There is an agreement—it may not meet with the hon. Gentleman's approval—and the Bill asks that it should be ratified.
May I thank you, Sir, for your ruling and the trouble you have taken to explain your ruling to the House? May I put a question to the Leader of the House? It is perfectly clear that there is some doubt, even as to the terms arrived at upon which this Bill is based, that those terms are such as have been described by some of the hon. Members who have spoken in the House and who were at the conferences during the last day or two. It would be most inconvenient to accept this agreement as the basis of the transaction we are asked to legalise. Would it not be better to put off this Bill until next week, so that the points in doubt might be cleared up and that the President of the Board of Trade, in conjuncion with the Coal Controller, might come nearer to a complete agreement with those whom the Bill affects. If that were done, it would be convenient in order to let us know exactly how far the description of the Bill we have had to-day is a correct description of the financial proposals, and we should be able to ascertain how far a charge would or would not be borne on the Exchequer, which is a most material point in view of Mr. Speaker's ruling.
I cannot see any necessity for adopting the course suggested by my right hon. Friend. It seems to me that if there is this difference of opinion as to the agreement the proper time to discuss it is on the Second Reading, and that will also provide an opportunity for discussing the point raised by my right hon. Friend.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
No doubt the House will desire that I should give some explanation of the reasons which have led up to the Bill, and also of the Bill itself and the agreement in the Schedule. In December of last year the Government took over the control of the coal mines in South Wales and Monmouthshire, largely on account of certain labour disputes which then existed It was thought that by establishing control over the coal mines the men would feel that any extra effort on their part would not secure any additional profits to the mine-owners, but would be a benefit to the community at large; and, in so far as that particular point is concerned, I think we can truthfully say that the control has secured the desired object. In March of this year it was determined to extend that control so as to include all the remaining coal mines in Great Britain and Ireland, not only so that this labour point could be met in all the districts, but there was another equally important reason and that was so that the Government might have complete control of the whole production and distribution of the entire output of all the coal mines. Transport at that time was giving the Government very grave concern. By transport I mean, of course, internal transport, particularly the railways. In order to reduce as much as possible the burden upon the railways-a very substantial addition was made to the passenger fares. That in itself had reasonably good results. The enormous demands which were made upon the railways, not only to supply rolling stock for France, but also because all classes of traffic in the country were rapidly expanding—passenger and goods traffic as well—made it absolutely imperative that traffic on the railways should be reduced to the lowest possible minimum. One of the very heaviest charges upon the railways is that of carrying coal. Roundly speaking, some 250,000,000 tons of coal are carried over the railways annually. It has been estimated by the Coal Controller that by having the control of all the output of the mines and being able to determine its destination—in other words, bringing the consumption of coal as nearly as possible to the source—it would be possible to save, roundly, 700,000,000 ton miles per annum. I shall not attempt to translate that into the number of locomotives and railway wagons which will be required for that transport. The mere magnitude of the figures will convince the House how effective it would be in its consequences if that saving could be effected.
A very big "if!"
We could not indulge in any estimates as regards this question of economy, because already, as the result of the control, there has been a very material saving in locomotives, railway wagons and staff by the railways in this country. Therefore, from the points of view of labour and of transport, it was absolutely essential that the Government should have complete control of the output of the coal mines of the entire country. Take, for instance, London. London, as the result of this control, is receiving and distributing for use in London more coal this year than was the case a year ago. [An HON. MEMBER: "Who is getting it?"] The fact remains that more coal is being brought into London and being distributed, and we have larger stocks available this year than we had a year ago, and that result is greatly attributed to the control established by the Coal Controller; and we may congratulate ourselves that this country, when compared with other belligerent countries, with the possible exception of the United States, is better off as regards coal for domestic use than any of the others. While I do not pretend to say that we have been able to satisfy everyone, that we have been able to give everyone all the coal he desires, we have been able to prevent any real hardship, and in so far as I can see now, providing people exercise reasonable economy, there is no doubt in my mind that we shall go through this next winter successfully.
Having the control of the coal mines, it is essential that we should enter into some arrangement with the mine-owners, so that they may know just what their position is under this control and so that the Coal Controller may feel perfectly free to deal with this vast output in the national interest and not have to have regard to the interest of any individual arising out of any act on his part. There were two alternatives, either to enter into some such agreement as has been scheduled in this Bill or to leave it to each mine-owner to make an appeal to the War Losses Commission, or possibly to the Law Courts, if he felt that he had a claim for compensation arising out of the acts of the Controller. Obviously there is every advantage in having an agreement that applies to every single colliery owner. We determined that that was the only possible course we could pursue. As the result of that decision the Coal Controller entered into correspondence with the Mining Association of Great Britain and the executive council of that association appointed a Consultative Committee, which was authorised to enter into negotiations with the Coal Controller, on behalf of the Mining Association, which I am advised includes in its membership a very large majority of the mine-owners of the country. This consultative committee was authorised to enter into negotiations wih the Coal Controller with a view to arriving at some understanding and after very prolonged negotiations this agreement was submitted to the Executive Council of the Mining Association. They in turn submitted this draft agreement to the local associations which are members of the federation and finally the executive council authorised the consultative committee to enter into an agreement with the Coal Controller. After some further negotiations the agreement now scheduled to this Bill was the result of these negotiations. I do not think it can be suggested that the Coal Controller has any other course open to him. He approached the right organisation for this particular industry. I think we are justified in assuming that the agreement entered into by that association is acceptable to the majority of the mine-owners of this country.
As regards the Bill it gives statutory effect to the agreement and confers rights, powers, duties and obligations on the various bodies and parties concerned, provides penalties for failure to furnish necessary information and also provides the machinery whereby any modification of the agreement which may at some future time be made between the Coal Controller and the mine-owners shall be given effect to without requiring an amending Act. There are several reasons why the Bill is necessary. In the first place, it is necessary that the agreement should be binding upon all the mine-owners of the country. A scheme of this kind cannot be operative unless every interest is swept in. Therefore, I think it is imperative that in making the agreement it should not only include the majority but should be made binding upon every mine-owner. There is another reason why the Bill is necessary, and that is, that even those undertakings which might be willing to accept the agreement might be prevented from doing so because of their legal responsibilities as trustees, and that is an additional reason why statutory effect should be given to this agreement. There is a third reason, and that is that it is proposed to utilise the services of the Inland Revenue authorities. It is a great advantage not having to set up an entirely new organisation to operate an agreement of this kind, affecting as it does an interest of such magnitude as that of the coal industry of this country. It is proposed, and the Inland authorities have given their assent to it, that they shall be used for the purpose of determining the cost and assessing the colliery owner's contribution in the event of an excess of cost. This will be a special advantage in ordinary cases to the mine-owners, since it will not be necessary for them to make a separate return to the Coal Controller. As regards the work involved in cases where compensation has to be paid, it is proposed that the staff attached to the Coal Controller's office shall deal with that particular work.
With regard to the agreement I must admit it is somewhat complicated; but when one bears in mind the enormous interests affected by it and the newness of the whole problem I think it will be recognised that it would be exceedingly difficult to make the agreement more simple than it has been drafted. I will try as briefly as I can to explain the more essential features of this agreement. In the first place it provides that every mine-owner has a right, during the period of control, to make a claim upon the Coal Controller if during any accounting period his profits are less than they were during the standard period, and provided the output during the period of control, during the accounting period, is not less than 65 per cent. of that of the standard period, then the difference between his profits during the control period and the standard period shall be made up by the Coal Controller to the extent of the difference reduced by a percentage equivalent to three-fourths of the reduction of output in such accounting period. Perhaps I had better try to explain that by way of illustration. Take, for instance, a colliery with an output of 10,000 tons during the standard period—that is, the pre-war period. A profit was made during that period of £1,000, which is at the rate of 2s. per ton. If during the accounting period—that is, the period of control—the output falls to 9,000 tons, the mine-owner would be entitled to have his profits made up to him on the basis of an output of 9,250 tons, and at the same rate of profit, 2s. per ton, his profit would be £925. I hope by that illustration I have made quite clear to what extent their profits are reduced during the accounting period. If during that period the output of that mine is less than it was during the standard period, and possibly there will be instances where the output will be less than 65 per cent., those cases would become special cases for the consideration of the Controller, who will take into account all the circumstances in arriving at a standard, and the agreement provides that if the decision of the Coal Controller is not acceptable to the mine-owner the latter may appeal to the Board of Referees under the Finance Act. That deals with cases where, as I have said, the output and the profits are less during the accounting period than during the standard period. If, on the other hand, the profits of an undertaking during the accounting period are in excess of those of the standard period, then 15 per cent. of the 20 per cent. which the mine-owner is allowed to retain under the Finance Act is to be paid over to the Inland Revenue authorities. In other words, the mine-owner under these circumstances is permitted to retain only 5 per cent of his excess profits instead of 20 per cent. This 15 per cent. of the excess profits is to be paid to the Inland Revenue authorities and is to be used for the purpose of compensating those mine-owners whose profits have fallen below the standards which have been arrived at. It is expected, as far as anybody can forecast on a matter of this magnitude, that the sum received from the excess profits will be at least sufficient to compensate those whose profits have fallen, but if that amount is not sufficient then it will be necessary for us to come to Parliament and ask that the deficit be made good either by a Vote of Credit or in some other way as may be agreed upon. If, on the other hand, which is not unlikely, there is a surplus remaining, it will be for Parliament, at the time the control comes to an end, to determine what disposition is to be made of the surplus. But it is not contemplated that any part of that surplus shall be paid to the mine-owner.
Will the Department have to account to the Treasury?
No.
To whom will it account?
8.0 P.M.
I will answer that question when the time arrives for dealing with it. The money will be in the hands of the Inland Revenue authorities, and it is to be administered by the Coal Controller. I have said that if there is any remaining at the time the control comes to an end, it will be for Parliament to settle what disposition shall be made of it. There may be cases where there is no standard prior to the period of control or to which the standard cannot be fairly applied. For instance, there may be the case of a mine newly opened up, and in a developing stage, or of a mine which, by accident, through flood or other cause, has, as a consequence, had its standard profits, its pre-war profits, adversely affected. The agreement makes provision for cases of that kind. It provides that a new standard may be fixed, and this new standard, to be fixed by the Coal Controller, may, if the mine-owner so desires, be appealed against to the Board of Referees. In fixing this new scale the object would be to determine what the standard would be under conditions similar to those it is being worked under during the period of control—war conditions being excluded. There are cases which may require a special standard. These instances would be exceedingly rare, but provision has been made in the agreement for them. I may refer to the case of coal mines which, during the pre-war period had not been worked at a profit. Arising out of the War, a munition factory had been established near the mine. This created a new and possibly a very profitable customer for the mine. It might be that the profits of the mine would be increased without necessarily increasing the output, and for that particular reason it does not come within the explanations which I have given about the other provisions. It is proposed, in the case of that mine—a case which would be exceedingly rare—to give the Coal Controller power to fix a new standard, and, in that event, for a particular reason, there is no appeal from the decision of the Coal Controller. It might be there will be instances where the coal-owner or mine-owner might desire to close his mine and yet, in the view of the Coal Controller, it might be to the national interest that the mine should be kept open. In that case the agreement provides that the mine-owner should not only be entitled to his compensation under the agreement, but that in addition to that the Coal Controller will make a special payment of compensation for the special loss arising out of the continuation of the working of the mine owing to the demands of the Coal Controller. As regards collieries which may be closed by Order of the Coal Controller, the modified guarantee as provided in the agreement will continue in force; in other words, he will be entitled to receive his pre-war profits less the amount, whatever it may be, due to the falling off in his output at the time the mine was closed. The agreement makes further provision, by consent, for the establishment of a levy fund, to which the mines in a particular district could subscribe, so that in the event of a mine being closed down in that particular district the mine-owner would be entitled to receive special contributions from that fund; and the agreement provides that the Coal Controller would make contributions towards the cost involved in the closing up of the mine to the extent of 40 per cent. of the amount paid by the mine-owner with this proviso, that he is required to make that contribution only to the extent of the amount he has on hand at the end of the control after the 15 per cent. which he receives out of excess profits. I cannot say that this agreement has been accepted by all of the mine-owners. It has been accepted by the majority of the mine-owners. I am not pretending to say that it is favourable to those interests. I do not see any reason why it should be favourable to those interests, but I consider it in all the circumstances a fair agreement, and it is an agreement which I commend to the favourable consideration of the House.
I think it may be for the convenience of the House if I add a few words to what the right hon. Gentleman has just said. I have been requested to do so by the Mining Association of Great Britain, one of the parties to this agreement, and I think it will be convenient if I just state shortly what the situation of that association is, and the various steps that were taken before this agreement was arrived at. For the benefit of those who are not acquainted with the coal industry I should explain that in each of the coalfields of this country there is a local association. The Mining Association is a Federation composed of delegates, or members, sent by the various local associations from Scotland in the North to South Wales in the South. The executive power, as the right hon. Gentleman has told the House, is exercised by the executive council. That council is appointed each year, with due regard to the representation of all the districts, taking especially the output into consideration. This agreement before the House to-night was considered by the various local associations, and was subsequently considered by the executive council and the Mining Association. Then that executive council appointed a representative consultative committee to discuss with the Controller the terms of the draft agreement. Very protracted negotiations followed, extending, I think, over four months of the present year, and after that the consultative committee submitted the provisional agreement to the executive council of the Mining Association. This meeting took place in London on the 21st June. It was very largely attended, there were 130 members present, and this resolution being passed:
"That this meeting records its view that the terms of the agreement with the Controller of Coal mines should be further modified, but leaves to the Consultative Committee full power to make a definite settlement on the best possible obtainable terms."
That resolution gave ample power to the consultative committee to come to a final agreement, which they did very soon afterwards, with the Coal Controller. At that meeting there were one or two members present who did not agree with the proposal. My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Sir C. Cory), I admit, was one of them, and there were one or two others.
When the hon. Gentleman says that there were one or two others, I beg to remark that the South Wales Coal Owners' Association opposed the agreement at that meeting.
I will come to that, and the House will see what the position is. There was a meeting of the consultative committee on the 24th of October, and at that meeting reports were received from the various local associations to which the agreement had been submitted. I will just tell the House what the results of those reports were. Scotland was in favour of the agreement—I am speaking of the resolutions passed by the various local associations. Fifeshire: Although there are some in the district who will be adversely affected, they think that the agreement should be accepted and efforts made to get it through Parliament. Durham: Will take the agreement as it stands, and thinks it should be supported in Parliament. Northumberland: The same. South Yorkshire——
The hon. Member is speaking of the mine-owners, and not of the miners?
Certainly; I am speaking of the local associations of the different districts. Northumberland agrees; South Yorkshire supports the agreement; West Yorkshire: Although many of the collieries do not understand the agreement—[laughter]—we are not surprised at that—they have confidence in the consultative committee, and are prepared to accept the agreement. Lancashire and Cheshire: A resolution was passed unanimously on the 23rd October in favour of the agreement. Midland Counties: A very large majority of this association are in favour of the agreement. There was some opposition, but if it was understood that the Treasury are behind the Controller it would take away a good deal of the opposition. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] The right hon. Gentle- man has just told the House what his view on that point was. North Staffordshire: There is no opposition. Cannock Chase approves the agreement. Warwickshire intends to abide by the agreement. Now we come to South Wales, to which the hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives referred. A very large meeting of the association was held about a fortnight ago, and with the exception of four members, led by my hon. Friend, there was unanimity that the agreement should be accepted.
I should like to remark that the four members have a very large output, representing many companies.
The hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity of stating his case afterwards. Then, Somerset, Gloucester, and the Forest of Dean; after the explanations made to them at the interview with the Controller no objection will be made by these districts to the confirmation of the agreement. I should mention that Lancashire had a meeting and passed this Resolution:
"That this meeting of the Lancashire and Cheshire Coal Association disapproves of the attempt of a small section of coal-owners to interfere with the agreement entered into with the Mining Association of Great Britain and the Controller of Mines, and approves the action of the Consultative Committee in concluding the agreement."
If an agreement has to be arrived at, surely that is evident that it has been arrived at with the exception of a very few members who dissent. Perhaps in a matter of this kind you cannot expect absolute unanimity, but the point is plain that the vast number of persons interested in this matter have agreed, and I think the House cannot quarrel with the Association for not having done their very best to arrive at a proper settlement. I may say with regard to the agreement itself—the right hon. Gentleman has gone very fully into the details, and I will not follow him in that matter but leave it to others to do so—that it is very complicated and difficult to understand. I very much doubt whether anyone who is not a skilled accountant and knows something of accounting matters could really understand the agreement without having it explained to him. The details are very intricate and complicated. With regard to the point as to the Schedule, you, Mr. Speaker, have ruled that no Amendments can be made of this agreement. I quite agree that if an Amendment is made of the agreement there is no agreement. The agreement has gone, because you have interfered with something to which people have agreed. You must either take it or leave it as it is, and I strongly plead with the minority associated with the hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Ives to consider whether they are acting wisely and in their own interests to try to force the Controller to give them better terms, because that is what it comes to. They are really trying to extract more money than this agreement allows. The agreement has been arrived at by compromise and forbearance on both sides. The negotiations lasted for a great many months, as I say, and the result is that this agreement has been arrived at as a compromise and as a fair one, because the majority of the mine-owners of this country, although they realise that they are to lose 95 per cent. of their Excess Profits instead of 80 per cent. compared with the ordinary trader, do not want it to be said that they are profiting by the War in any way whatever. The majority, therefore, are perfectly prepared to accept, the decision, and not to receive the extra profits to which they might be entitled.
I beg to move to leave out from the word "now," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words "upon this day three months."
In moving this Amendment, I am speaking, not on behalf of a small minority of coal-owners, but on behalf of dissentient coal-owners who produce no less than 100,000,000 tons of coal per annum out of a total of about 230,000,000 tons. I unhesitatingly say that I have not met a single coal-owner who has acquiesced in this agreement who does not regard the conditions imposed as unfairly penalising the coal trade beyond all other trades and industries. I still adhere to the principle which I have over and over again stated in this House that no one should be allowed to enrich themselves in this War. I would willingly support the payment into the public Treasury of the whole of the excess profits made in the coal trade provided that the same burden was placed on all other trades and industries and that one trade is not singled out and penalised as compared with the rest. This Bill provides that in addition to 80 per cent. excess profits payable by all those who are brought within its scope there shall be added a further levy of 15 per cent. which shall be pooled, making 95 per cent. in all. That is a great violation of the true prin- ciple of taxation, namely, the equal incidence of taxation. How can the Government justify a departure from this principle of the equal incidence of taxation and in mulcting the coal trade in the manner I have described compared with other trades and industries? The Government appear to have abandoned entirely the true principle of taxation, that every man should be taxed according to his ability to pay, and they are calling upon the coal trade to bear this heavy burden far beyond anything imposed on any other trade. How can they justify that in view of the fact that what is almost the greatest industry in the country, the agriculture industry, is allowed to go absolutely scot free from war taxation? No one is making more money than the farmers in this country during this terrible war, and yet they are not asked to pay Excess Profits. Duty or Super-tax, nor are they charged more than a mere fraction of Income Tax, namely, they are taxed, not on their profits, but on the rent they pay.
How can the Government justify leaving, out the huge industry of agriculture from its fair share of taxation? The same thing applies to the owners of woods and forests. Surely, when the Government compelled the coal trade to sell their coal under the Coal Prices (Limitation) Act at a certain fixed price they might, at any rate, have taken steps to secure them their timber supplies at a reasonable figure, but they did nothing of the sort. Instead of placing an embargo on the sale of homegrown timber and fixing a reasonable price they allowed the owners of the timber to charge their own prices, and the coal-owners are having to pay six, eight, and ten times the prices for their pit timber that they had to pay in prewar days. The owners of woods and forests are getting huge plunder by their increased prices for wood sold under war conditions. I gave an instance of this kind last week in the House, and yet these owners of woods and forests have not to pay Excess Profits Duty or any taxation whatsoever. I think that with a Prime Minister whose mission was land reform—[An HON. MBMBER: "It was, but not now!"]—that we should not in these days have found the agricultural and landed interests being so powerful. However, the farmers go scot free of taxation on their huge profits and the owners of woods and forests who are allowed to charge such high prices for their timber also go free. The principle of equal incidence of taxation has apparently been thrown over entirely by the present Government. The coal trade has been repeatedly penalised throughout the War. When the War broke out the Government commandeered the whole of the ships that had been legally chartered to convey coal from the North to London at 3s., and when they lent us German ships, which they had captured, to help us out, they had the audacity to charge 17s. 6d. for performing the same service which we had legally contracted to have done by ships we had chartered at 3s., and the huge profits which resulted have been paid into the national Treasury.
That was the first step. The second step was the passing of the Coal Prices (Limitation) Act. I agree that coal prices should have been limited just as I agree that timber prices should have been limited. What I protest against is the unequal application of all these things. For instance, in the county of Durham they compel us to sell our coal at a price not exceeding 4s. a ton on the pre-war rates to home consumers, while the exporting collieries were practically not interfered with at all, and got immensely higher prices. That Act did not secure for the householders of this country cheap household coal. It practically left the merchant untouched. Certainly by voluntary agreement the consumers got some mitigation of the high prices, but there was no obligation whatever placed upon the coal merchants to sell coal to the householder at anything like a rise of 4s. a ton. The Member for St. Ives (Sir Clifford Cory) is allowed to charge 6s. 6d. per ton extra on pre-war prices in South Wales, but in Durham we are only allowed to charge 4s. extra, though my costs are up in some cases 5s. to 6s. a ton as compared with prewar cost. That is the Government's idea of fair and equal treatment. We require a great many corrections of this sort. I went to the Coal Controller and pointed out that certain collieries had as much as 6s. a ton extra costs to meet compared with pre-war cost, and I asked that we should get the 6s. 6d. per ton extra which is allowed in South Wales. Did I get it? Nothing of the sort. I only got the 4s. One of my collieries has had to be closed. It made a profit in pre-war days, but it was making a heavy loss at the present time, and there was no alternative but to close it. I could have worked it at a profit if I had been given freedom of trade and freedom of contract, but the Government interference has been so oppressive and carried to such an extent that I had to close it, and I am involved in a heavy loss instead of a profit.
I do not care to bring forward personal matters, and I do not want a single penny of excess profits from the coal trade. I want it to go to the national Treasury. Therefore, I am not speaking in any selfish spirit. I am going to be called upon to pay 15 per cent. levy in addition to the 80 per cent. of Excess Profits Duty from six collieries in which I am interested, but because I have one small colliery that has had to be closed because it is making heavy loss I am told that, though I pay an additional 15 per cent. from six collieries into the Compensation Fund, I shall not get a single farthing out of the Compensation Fund to compensate me in regard to the colliery which Government interference of a most unjustifiable character has compelled me to close. That is the sense of equity possessed by these Government officials. The drastic arrangements forced on the coal trade are nothing more than an exploiting of the necessities of the coal-owners whose trade has been penalised, and who fall in with this treatment because both coal miners and masters are second to none in patriotism in this hour of our country's danger, and they submit to this unfair treatment not because it is just, but because they have not the heart to raise the opposition that they would do if we were living in normal times. Of course, they feel that no one must keep anything back, whether personal service or money, or whatever it is, that can be used for the successful prosecution of the War. But the complicated character of the agreements and of the Rules and Regulations issued by the Coal Controller, the Ministry of Munitions, and the Board of Trade constitute such an amount of State interference and control against the commercial and economic interests of the country as will, I am convinced, have disastrous consequences after the War to the trade and the economic recovery of the British Empire.
The irony of the situation is that our Government entered into this great world-struggle in order to uphold the sanctity of international contracts and agreements, and yet they proceed to destroy the sanctity of commercial contracts and agreements wholesale. They have abrogated all the coal contracts we had in our books, every purchase and every sale. What an example for the great British Government to set to the world, who profess to be making this War in order to maintain the sanctity of international contracts and agreements; and they use their unlimited powers under the Defence of the Realm Act to violate the principle of sanctity of contracts in this wholesale fashion. These interferences absolutely destroy all freedom of trade and freedom of contract in the coal trade. If no Government interference had taken place beyond fixing reasonable prices, if all the excess profits, not only in this trade but in every trade, had been paid into the public Treasury, the financial situation to-day in this country would have been immensely better, and we would have been stronger financially to face the future before us. Coal-owners know best how to carry on their own business. State interference is always an evil, and it could not be a greater evil than it is in the case of the coal trade. Coal-owners know how to carry on both in the matter of production and distribution. The relations with their customers are mutually satisfactory, and there is no justification whatever for the abrogation of contracts that has been perpetrated by my right hon. Friend and the Coal Controller.
There is no scarcity of coal. Collieries are only working three days a week. It is not a question of scarcity of coal; it is the Government that the coal consumers of the country have got to blame for any difficulty in obtaining supplies. We have got a Coal Controller. I admire his ability and energy. But without any disparagement to him, he hardly possesses the knowledge of the coal trade that justifies that interference which he is making with it. If he would confine his activities to speeding up the transit of coal from the mines to the consumer, and the more rapid emptying of wagons and the return of those wagons to the collieries to be loaded again, he would be doing infinitely more valuable work than by all this interference of an extreme character with the great coal industry. I will not attempt to enter now into the details of this Bill. Many Clauses are so complicated and ill-drafted that they are beyond any certain interpretation whatever. The coal producers have to contend with agreements, circulars, rules, and regulations which no man can understand. They do not know where they stand or how to carry on their absolutely legitimate business. Many questions will be raised on the Committee stage of the Bill, but there is no question that the compensation provisions will take a lot of explaining. We were told yesterday afternoon by the President of the Board of Trade that any deficiency in the compensation fund would be made up by the State, and then yesterday afternoon the Home Secretary, for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said that they were advised that the guarantees referred to cannot in any circumstances impose any charge upon the Exchequer. What is the use of all that?
We have another ground of grievance. They have coal control committees in every district in the country, and they compel me to submit a list of my contracts, to that coal control committee, on which are sitting competitors with me in my trade, and all the knowledge and experience that I have gained after fifty years in the coal trade have to be placed at the disposal of my competitors by the disclosure of every item of business that I am, doing. If that is treating traders fairly, I give it up. We had a speech the other day by the representative of the Shipping Controller, who told us that they had to raise freights because of the great cost of working steamers, and he instanced as a reason for raising freights, and increasing the cost of food supplies to the people of this country, a huge rise in the price of bunker coal. The fact is that we were charging 17s. to 18s. for bunker coal when we suddenly got notice from the Coal Controller that we were to raise the price to 23s. or 24s. They deliberately themselves raised the price of bunker coal by 6s. a ton, for use on the requisitioned steamers. The result is that the demand is very limited, as the shipping people will, owing to these prices, only use the very best quality of coal on the market, and collieries producing second-class coal are left out in the cold entirely, to the great financial benefit of the collieries that do not need such a system at all, collieries which have been making huge profits. This Government deliberately raised the price of bunker coal against themselves by 6s. a ton. Why, I cannot understand. The statements which I have made require so much answering that the speech of my right hon. Friend ought to have been made after, and not before, the representations which I have ventured to put forward.
In principle I am opposed to all Government control. In time of war it may be required for public safety, and may be necessary, but where people are appointed to control and supervise trades they do not understand, it creates untold evils, which I am sorry to say, when the War is over and the control is terminated, will not be got rid of. So far as the getting of coal for the purposes of this War was concerned, it was quite unnecessary to take control of the collieries. That is shown by the fact that ever since the War broke out the Admiralty have been taking the whole of the coal they require at their own price. Just before the War broke out the current market price was about 25s. Over the year 1914 the Admiralty took the whole of their coal at from about 17s. to 18s., according to the quality, and then up to the end of 1916 the price was about 24s. to 25s. During that period coal inferior in quality to that taken by the Admiralty was sold at up to about 54s. 6d. a ton, so that I do not think that the patriotism of the coal-owners who own Admiralty coal can be questioned, seeing that they acquiesced in the price which the Admiralty paid. Though it may be that they protested and murmured at the prices, yet they acquiesced in the Admiralty taking their coal at those prices, notwithstanding, as I have said, that other owners were selling inferior qualities of coal to neutrals at very much higher prices. I do not complain that the inferior qualities got those higher prices. I submit it was a benefit to the country, because it was a means of bringing money to this country. It was of benefit to this country that they should get as high a price as possible. As my hon. Friend has said, coal-owners are as patriotic as any other section of the community. They have made sacrifices, and they are prepared to make more sacrifices if necessary in order to win the War; but what I do complain of is that this class should be singled out from all the other classes in the country, and taxed more heavily as compared with other sections of the community.
It is said that this is an agreed Bill. The right hon. Gentleman stated that there was an agreement, and the Speaker ruled that it was an agreement. For my part, I submit that it is not an agreement. In the first place, the Mining Association had no power to negotiate any agreement—there is no doubt of that—the opinion of eminent counsel has been taken on the point, and it is to the effect that the Association went outside its powers. Moreover, the Coal Controller and the Government had no power to make this agreement, and the opinion of an eminent counsel has been taken on that point also. A meeting of the Mining Association was held on 21st June, and the Chairman of that association, who is expected to look after its interests, bias been nobbled by the Coal Controller, who has put him on the Advisory Committee set up to advise the Controller as against the coal-owners. The Secretary of the Mining Association of Great Britain is also on this Advisory Committee, to advise the Controller as against the coal-owners. That is an extraordinary position, as every Member of this House will admit. The Chairman of the Mining Association, at the meeting to which I have referred, said the Controller was going to put the agreement into force forthwith, and for those who accepted, well and good, but for those who did not it would be worse for them; they could go to the Woodhouse Commission. I do not think that at that time it was thought there was any chance of being able to go to law. The opinion of eminent counsel is that the agreement was absolutely illegal, and the Coal Controller evidently discovered that it was illegal, because he sent out a notice in August that he was going to enforce the agreement under statutory rights. Apparently he was afraid to enforce the agreement without, because he knew it was illegal.
The Member for Sheffield referred to this meeting of the 21st June, and referred to some of the local associations in regard to this agreement, stating that South Yorkshire did not understand it. Nobody understood it, and it has been admitted by the right hon. Gentleman himself that nobody understands it.
Eminent counsel states that this is the most complicated and involved Bill ever introduced into this House. How can the poor coal-owner be expected to understand it if eminent counsel are unable to do so? A great many coal-owners had never seen it. It was sent out to the heads of firms through the local associations, but a great many never saw it, and those who did see it did not understand it, and yet they are supposed to have agreed to it. One association said that it did not understand it, but if it included the guarantee of the Government they would accept it. I have already said that it did not contain any guarantee from the Government, and that it merely contained the personal guarantee of the Controller. No doubt the Controller is a wealthy man, but I do not know that he has enough private wealth to meet the deficiency which will arise. At any rate, we do not want to strip him of his wealth; we prefer that the Exchequer should guarantee the deficit that there will be. We are told by the right hon. Gentleman himself that it is intended by the Government to provide funds, and they will have to come to Parliament in order to make the deficiency good. Perhaps, if they come to Parliament, at some remote time, when very many more taxes will have been imposed upon us, the country will not be prepared to submit to further impositions upon it, and it is a very great assumption to think that, in such circumstances, the coal-owners will get the deficiency met out of the National Exchequer. There is to be a guaranteed standard, but if the output is reduced then the guaranteed standard is reduced. Output will be reduced not from any action of the owners themselves, but because of the interference of the Controller, the scarcity of wagons, the change in the distribution from collieries, coal being sent to the nearest port over some congested line of three or four miles, whereas it would be quicker to send it a longer distance, and owing to consumers finding that the coal that has been sent to them does not suit them. All these reasons have resulted in the consumer not having coal and in collieries being stopped. Therefore output has been reduced and the coal-owners will be penalised by that reduction of output for which they are in no way responsible but for which the Controller is responsible. Wages have been increased and we know that increases of wages mean less work. That is another way in which their output has been reduced and they are to be penalised for that.
It has been said that the vast majority of the coal-owners agreed to this Bill. I opposed the Bill at the meeting of the 21st of June. The Monmouthshire and South Wales Association refused to assent to it on that occasion because they had not had sufficient time to understand or study it, although at a later date they gave their assent though they did not understand the Bill then. There were a number of coal-owners from all parts of the Kingdom, not from South Wales alone, but from other districts, some of whom were not in any association and who had never seen the Bill, and there were others who did not understand it when they gave their assent to it. They begged me to call a meeting to consider the position and I did so about a fortnight ago. At the meeting at which assent was supposed to have been given on the 21st of June there were, according to the hon. Member for Sheffield, 130 members present. And at the meeting which I called about a fortnight ago over 200 coal-owners attended from England, Scotland and Wales, including a very large number from Scotland. At that meeting a resolution was passed by an overwhelming majority, stating that they considered that the Bill was unjust and inequitable and that they desired Amendments. I had not intended to take any action, but there were so many large producers and small producers complaining that I was induced to call that meeting, at which a committee was appointed, and we met the right hon. Gentleman the President who very courteously received us yesterday and we thrashed out the different points in which we thought the Bill ought to be amended. I am sorry to say that the right hon. Gentleman refused in all cases to amend it in any way at all. I asked him then if the Government are going to guarantee the deficit let them put it in the Bill and let us know where we are, for otherwise the whole thing is fiction and a fraud. If men are to be induced to give up 15 per cent. of excess profits and undergo other penalties and difficulties and to get no guarantee as to the pre-war standard the whole thing is a fraud.
Much as I object to the terms, I object more to the mode of procedure that was adopted in trying to bring about this agreement. The Consultative Committee were bound to secrecy. They sat for three or four months negotiating other men's property away and they were pledged not to tell their constituents what was happening or the terms till the thing was agreed and then it was launched on the coal-owners. That is on a par with the other Bill which did the right hon. Gentleman's Department no great credit. I refer to the Trading Corporation Bill, which was carried on in the same secret way, to which the House objected. The Consultative Committee were bound to go down to the various localities it was stated at this meeting of the 21st of June to recommend this agreement, and they were told if they did not accept it they should have very much worse terms. I said at that meeting and I repeat here, to have threats of that kind made by a Government Department is to my mind a scandal. As my hon. Friend said, it is a very dangerous principle to lay down, or for this House to agree to, that one section of the community is to be taxed higher than the other sections. The title of the Bill is really very amusing, and I think whoever is responsible for the drawing up of this Bill must be quite a humorist, because he ironically says that this is a Bill to give effect to a certain agreement relating to the compensation to be paid in respect of coal mines. Compensation, forsooth, when they take 95 per cent. of the excess profits from the coal trade, whereas they take only 80 per cent. from the other trades! They call that compensation. I would point out that this control, which we are told is so necessary, is ruining the coal trade of this country, and I am told by men in other trades that it is ruining their trades as well. There are a number of collieries absolutely unable to carry on. Nearly all the collieries in South Waes are only working three days a week. That is the result of control. I can assure the House that men who have had a taste of control are pretty sick of it. [An HON. MEMBER: "And working men, too!"] Yes: this is not only going to affect the coal-owner, but it is going also to affect the working man. If the collieries are closed, the working men are going to suffer as well as the shareholders.
The Government are really exploiting the patriotism of the coal-owners and of other manufacturers in this country. Those people have been very docile in accepting all sorts of revolutionary measures. They are beginning to wake up and to think that in the national interest they should make some opposition. I would really try to let things go on but I think, quite apart from my own interests, that this is a very serious matter for the country. It is serious that the trade of the country should be ruined in this way. All development is stopped by this control. There are no fresh sinkings, and the consequence is that coal will be getting scarcer, with the result that every consumer will have to pay more and every industry will have to pay more and every commodity will become dearer. That is all the result of control As my hen Friend says, talk about profiteering, when the worst profiteers in the country are the Government! Instead of showing, a good example the Government are showing the worst example possible. The excuse the right hon. Gentleman told us for control was that it would prevent the men asking for increased wages, and that if they took the profits instead of the coal-owners that the men would not any longer ask for increased wages. If that is so the whole excuse for control is gone, because the other day the Controller gave the whole, of the men in the collieries 1s. 6d. a day increase whether working or not. Experts at the collieries say that they would rather have had 25 per cent. increase, because the collieries are often, stopped three days a week and they have to pay the men just the same. The increase was arranged without any consultation whatever with the coal-owners. The Bill provides that the management shall still remain with the coal-owners. Part of the duties of the management is to regulate wages. The Controller takes the action he has done without any consultation with the coal-owners. He takes the matter into his own hands, and increases the wages, 1s. 6d. Even Mr. Smillie, the President of the Miners' Federation, said that he was quits surprised at the advance, as he had never expected so much. This is one of the results of control! I believe the Controller professes that he consulted the Advisory Committee; but, as I have said, the Advisory Committee was selected by himself, in order to advise him against the coal-owners. These were the people consulted.
My hon. Friend reminds me of the fact that, to cover the 1s. 6d., 2s. 6d. per ton increase in the price of coal has been given. That is so. But many collieries do not get that increase. The coals shipped to the Allies do not come under that increase. The consequence is that, working three days a week, some of the owners have to pay the 1s. 6d. increase on the whole of the six or seven days a week, and they do not get the 2s. 6d. increase. At some of the collieries where the whole of the coal goes to the Allies, they get nothing. At others where 75 per cent. or 80 per cent. of the output goes to the Allies, they get about 6d. per ton to cover the 1s. 6d. per man. Beyond that there is the Controller, who really has placed himself far above Parliament, and does not care twopence what Acts are passed by this House. He has got to that point when he overrides all Acts of Parliaments. He has overridden the Limitation of Prices Act. He has laid it down that certain coals are to go to the South-west of England at shillings per ton under the prices laid down by that Act. That is a further loss.
Is it not a fact that the rise in the price of coal and the increase of wages falls upon the British consumer?
9.0 P.M.
I agree with the hon. Member. The Allies can quite well afford to pay the extra 2s. 6d., and are not made to do so. Certain districts are making a good thing out of it—that is to say, those districts where they send the whole of their coals to the British consumer and cover themselves—but those who are in the unfortunate position of sending it to the Allies are getting little or nothing out of it. Clause 2 of the Bill deals with the new agreement. The Controller has power to determine this agreement, whatever its effect, if he finds it is not paying the Government, notwithstanding the dislocation of trade and everything else that may have arisen. Then there is a very serious Clause here to which I wish to draw the attention of hon. Members. In Clause (2) it says:
"If a new agreement in substitution therefor is made such new agreement shall, as soon as may be, be laid before Parliament, and unless within thirty days from the time when such new agreement is laid before Parliament, either House of Parliament presents an Address to His Majesty against the confirmation thereof, the new agreement shall be confirmed, and this Act shall have effect as if such new agreement was set forth in the Schedule to this Act in lieu of the original agreement."
The Controller, not the coal-owner, determines such agreement. It means that the Controller has absolutely all control over this agreement and can put a new one in its place, making any terms he likes, and not caring for anybody. He is in the position of Parliament, of these two Houses of Parliament, and if by chance anyone does not see the agreement or the Bill—and we know that with the number of Bills that are laid on the Table of Parliament nowadays that it is impossible for Members to follow them—and if no one notices this Bill or agreement it will become law. That is one of the outrageous Clauses of this Bill. There is in the Bill a provision enacting heavy penalties for breaches of the agreement even before this Bill becomes law. The Bill is retrospective in relation to the penalties. The right hon. Gentleman said he was not going to attempt to put them into force. We do not want these sort of things in the Bill. It is an absolute injustice. Men may have committed a breach of these provisions before the Bill becomes law, and they may be punished because it is in the agreement, which I say is not a proper or a valid agreement. In another Clause the Controller has the right to close any mine, and the poor owner is not to get any compensation. The only chance he has of compensation is out of this levy which may be made on the district if the majority of owners in that district makes an application to the Controller to make a levy. If there are six owners in the district and one poor fellow is losing money, is it likely that the other five are going to ask that a levy shall be made in order to compensate their fellow? A more absurd provision I never heard of. Then we are told about the guaranteed standard. I referred to that just now. A man is not to have the full guaranteed standard if he has a reduced output, which output may be reduced through no fault of his. Another point is, you have got the Controller established in a great big office with a large number of clerks, a very big staff, and this very peculiar thing—quite an unusual provision in a Bill—that the administrative expenses of that office are to come out of this 15 per cent. given as compensation to the coal-owners. Did anyone ever know of a Government Department that had its expenses paid out of other people's, pockets? Then in Clause (1) we find that no dividends shall be paid or the repayment of loans made unless the Controller agrees to it—that is to say, that if the coal-owner had contracted a loan and is under obligation to repay it, he must not repay it without asking the permission of the Controller If the Controller refuses, then the owner must merely say, "Very well. I am very sorry, but I cannot repay that loan." There is no provision in the Bill or anywhere else for appeal in such a case as this. Then hon. Members have heard that the guaranteed standard is abolished under the Finance Act. There is a substituted standard to be put in its place. There is no power of appeal under certain conditions. If the Controller does not give you a standard at all, or gives you one you are not satisfied with, you have to accept it whether you like it or not. People very often talk of the bloated capitalist, and refer to the coal-owner as an individual who makes enormous sums. Directors of coal mines know well enough that if a shareholders' list is looked over such a list is composed mostly of people with small holdings, of people in very moderate circumstances, of ministers, small shopkeepers, and all sorts of people like that. It is quite erroneous to suppose that all the collieries are owned by big capitalists. They are owned by small shareholders, and very many of those shareholders have a very much smaller income than the colliers themselves are now making.
There are the widows and orphans who are shareholders.
Yes, perhaps the shareholders of a colliery company include a larger number of small people than is the case with any other undertaking in any other class of the community. My hon. Friend referred to the numbers of forms that are sent out by the Controller. In every colliery office the staff is depleted, and the work is enormously increased owing to the War, and notwithstanding this there are sent down enormous numbers of forms. It takes no end of time to read them, and sometimes days to fill them up. They say, "We cannot fill them up," and they will not do so. I said to the Controller the other day, "You must get them to fill them up yourself. These men are overworked now, and it is useless to try to get them to do any more." I trust the House will reject this Bill. It is improper, unjust, inequitable, and will cause trouble and dislocation throughout the country. If it is given a Second Reading, I trust the House will see that equitable and just Amendments are inserted in the Bill.
I only want to offer one or two observations with respect to this Bill. I thought at one time perhaps that the two hon. Gentlemen who last spoke were making speeches in favour of increasing control rather than voting this suggestion out. They profess to be patriots like everyone else, and are quite willing even to sacrifice all their profits if every other class of people is called upon to do the same thing. I thought that was very good, and, so far as I am concerned, and those I represent, I believe that we should be ready to take them at their word. And I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will make a note of it, and see that it is done when the proper time comes. I am not going to say that we are prepared to accept this Bill as it is, but we are in favour of the principle of it. The necessities of the time demand that there shall be full control. It is quite in keeping with our desires at any rate that the coal trade should be under national control. We have advocated it a long time, and we are prepared to stand by it at the present time. Of course there are questions involved in the make-up and construction of this Bill that may require a considerable amount of consideration even from our point of view. For that reason, whilst we support the Second Heading, we shall reserve to ourselves the right to move as we think fit Amendments to certain Clauses of the Bill in Committee, and if it does not come out of Committee on the right lines, according to our standard, we shall hold ourselves at liberty, on the Third Beading, to support the rejection of the Bill. But, so far as the principle is concerned, we are prepared to support the Second Reading to-night.
It is not very often I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Sir C. Cory) in any matter in this House. I find him a very good colleague on most points connected with business and politics, and have been very glad to act with him in every way; but on this occasion I feel bound to say a word or two in support of the Bill, and I do so not because I like the Bill—because I think it is absolutely impossible that any coal-owner could like a Bill in terms such as these—but because the Bill has been fully considered, to my mind, by the coal-owners who are interested. It has been discussed from March to the end of July. I happened to be at the Consultative Committee—not as a member of the Consultative Committee, but as an accountant, employed to advise—and I am quite prepared to state that the whole question in the interests of the coal trade and the interests of this agreement were so fully entered into and debated, that I do not think it possible to bring about an agreement which would have met the wants of the Coal Controller and also the interests of the coal trade. I am very much inclined to say that the Coal Controller pressed his interests somewhat unduly, and the coal trade had to fight their battle in the best way they could in order to preserve their interests in a fair manner. The Coal Controller was advised by pre-eminent chartered accountants, and I am bound to say that if he was hard they were somewhat harder in regard to the accounts and regulations which they exacted from the coal trade. They now take, by the Bill, 95 per cent. of the profits, and of the 20 per cent. excess profits which it is possible a coal-owner can make, they take an extra 15 per cent. and only leave 5 per cent. In addition to that, they deprive him of the advantage which every other trader in this country has of a percentage standard.
Some little time ago an attack was made on shipowners, and they were put under certain disabilities. Now an attack is made on coal-owners, and they are put under certain disabilities which are worse than those of shipowners. There is no knowing what will next be attacked. As I said, the matter was very fully discussed. For one thing, we had a very able Scotsman for chairman, and I am a great believer in Scotsmen, because if a Scotsman cannot extract something for your benefit I do not know who can. He dealt with the matter from start to finish in a very able way. He also had a special secretary with experience of the coal trade, and we were all very much indebted to him. Therefore, whilst, as I say, I think the measure is a very hard one on the coal-owners, having been fully discussed and having been accepted, I feel—although, besides being a chartered accountant, I have been a coal-owner for thirty-five years, and although I shall be most seriously affected—I am quite prepared to support this Bill on the patriotic principle that we ought in every way to do what we can to carry on the War in accordance with the views of the Government. The Bill undoubtedly seriously affects coal-owners in that it takes from one man and gives to another. Naturally the man who is going to receive is always quite ready to receive. I do not know a man who would refuse to receive anything when it is given to him, but in the case of the man from whom it is taken away it becomes a question whether you are going fairly to take it away.
That is why I say you are putting the coal-owner under a disability in comparison with every other trade in the country when you deprive him of a percentage standard and also of excess profits which every other industry in England earns. It is put to the coal-owner in this way, "You must not deal with this matter as separate individuals; you must deal with it as a whole. We are going to compensate one branch of the coal trade because we interfere with their trade. They cannot send their steamers across to Germany and across the Channel, and their coal is interfered with, and so we call upon you, the coal trade, to treat your trade as a whole, and we are going to contribute from those who have an abundance in order to make good the deficiency of others." That was a consideration very properly put before us, and nearly the whole of the coal trade accepted that position, and agreed to allow this agreement to come to the House to be confirmed. Reference has been made to the fact that counsel advised the Association that they had no power to make the agreement. We had either the Woodhouse Committee to go to or we had this agreement to face, and with the knowledge of the Schedules under the Woodhouse Committee I think anyone would conclude that they would be better under this agreement. The Association has an executive council chosen at the annual meeting with due regard to the representation of the various districts, and the affairs of the Association are conducted by them. That executive throughout consulted all the districts concerned and took care that they were all represented. Therefore, I think that the criticism that this agreement is ultra vires is quite outside practical politics, and we come here and say that we want this agreement carried through.
Reference was made to the Chairman of the Association, Mr. Nimmo, and to Sir Thomas Ratcliff Ellis. I was sorry to hear any comment on those two gentlemen, and as one who was present at all the interviews with them I can say that they showed no bias towards the Coal Controller, and what they did was to make an effort to bring about an agreement that we all could accept. Those who know those two gentlemen best will acquit them of any effort to go against the coal trade. An hon. Member opposite said he was very pleased to see the coal trade under a Controller, and he hoped that this would lead to the nationalisation of the coal trade. I would like to know if the Coal Controller feels satisfied that he can cope with the coal trade. My own view is that this Department is absolutely incapable of carrying out a huge industry like the coal trade. It stands to reason that in such a little office you cannot conduct the business of a vast coal trade, with all its ramifications from north to south throughout the whole of the Kingdom.
I would like to refer to the second paragraph of the agreement, which says:
Section 2 of Clause 1 deals with the tremendous penalties upon coal-owners for all sorts of things if they do not give everybody every information they may require at a moment's notice. I have here a photograph of my office and all the forms I have to deal with, and it shows forms everywhere—on the table, the sideboard, the mantelpiece—and it requires a very intellectual man with great patience to deal with these forms. We are expected to give them absolutely correct, and when they have to be filled up with a penalty like this attached to them it is very outrageous. The penalties are tremendous, and the filling up of the forms taxes the capacity of our clerks and places an enormous strain upon them. I think we were dealt pretty hardly with as regards the extra 1s. 6d. We did not object so much to paying it as to the way in which it was done. It was thrown at us, and nobody knew who had to get the money. I have heard from Labour men themselves that they had exactly the same confusion, because that 1s. 6d. was thrown at them without any instruction as to how it was to be paid. In consequence of that 1s. 6d., wages went up from 3s. 1d. to 3s. 7d. per ton. They were a little less last week, but still they went up to that extent, and the 2s. 6d. now being doled out by the Controller will nothing like pay the extra wages which we had to disburse. We are quite ready to pay these extra wages, but we do want to get a proper allowance and we do want to be left with such control of our collieries that they can be carried on efficiently. We require no Archbishop of York to speak for us on this occasion. We are ready to face the music and to pay and to meet this occasion because it is a patriotic thing to do and because it is in the interests of the country, but I do hope that we shall be treated in a generous spirit in the matter of management, and that we shall not be placed under the disabilities which are likely to arise from a great overweighted establishment in London trying to carry on business all over the Kingdom.
I can quite understand why the hon. Member (Sir J. Harmood-Banner) rises to support the Bill, and I can also understand why, like Balaam, when he intended to support he remained to curse. A more damaging speech in support of any measure I have rarely listened to in this House. It would be difficult for a very old Member of this House who has had experience of Bills, whether introduced by private Members or by the Government, to give his support to such a Bill as we have before us to-day. It is not only the form of the Bill, it is not only that an entirely new principle is involved not merely in legislation, but in taxation, but it is the creation at a time when we are absolutely sick and tired of them of a new Department to control an industry in this country. It seems to me that for any one of those three reasons we might reject this Bill. If any further legislation were wanted, it would be found in the atmosphere of "interest" legislation in which we have existed for the last three hours. Every single speech that has been made, from the President of the Board of Trade, who introduced the Bill, down to the last speech by the representative of the coal mines of the chartered accountants, has been by an interest or by somebody who is involved financially in this agreement. I should have thought that everybody in this House knew perfectly well that we did not rpresent interests, but the community as a whole. That has never been considered for one moment. In the Debate that we have had up to now, it has been a question whether one set of coal-owners is going to be penalised for the benefit of another set of coal-owners. The real question is, what has this Bill to advantage the country, and that is the only thing that need be considered at the present time.
When you have a Bill brought forward in this particular form you want an exceptionally strong case to induce the House of Commons to accept it. Here is a Bill which, roughly speaking, consists of 2½ pages, of which the first page, unlike any other Bill that I have seen, begins with seven clauses "whereas," "whereas," "whereas." That is a funny thing to begin with. After going through 2½ pages of that sort of interesting historical retrospect, the Bill introduces about fifteen pages of an agreement which no speaker in this House so far has ventured to say that he can understand. I am told, if you are thoroughly acquainted with the coal trade and have been in it for fifty years, if you are also a chartered accountant like the hon. Member opposite, and if you have spent your life in a Government office studying these forms and agreements, that then you may form some slight idea what this agreement means. It is put before us almost as a sealed book. We do not understand it, and we are not required to understand it for the very simple reason that we are not allowed to amend it. Here is a Bill, 1½ pages of clauses and fifteen pages of agreements, and we are not allowed to amend a single line of those fifteen pages. We have got to take them as read. Legislation by reference is nothing to it. This is legislation by secret compact arranged between a public department and a body of traders. Under Clause 2 of the Bill the Controller takes power to draw up any new agreement. If he likes, he can cancel this agreement and substitute a new agreement without any fresh legislation whatever. All that is required is that the new agreement shall be laid before Parliament, and, if either House of Parliament presents an Address to His Majesty against the confirmation thereof, the new agreement shall not be confirmed. I have often in my pre-war experience tried to move an Address to His Majesty against something that was laid before the House. You are given an opportunity of doing it in the last half-hour before the House rises, and the Whips are specially told off to call a count so that no Address can ever be moved. This is the opportunity that is provided by this Bill for preventing fresh legislation. This is legislation therefore which we have got to take blindfold. The agreement might just as well not have been printed at all, because for it another agreement may be substituted without any fresh legislation, and we are not allowed to amend it. We are solemnly told that this is an arrangement between one body of traders and a public department, and that therefore Parliament has no right to interfere at all.
There is another principle involved in this Bill which I dislike fundamentally. Under it money is to be collected from certain interests in the country. That money is not to be accounted for by anybody. The sums so raised are to be dispensed at the ipse dixit of the President of the Board of Trade in such a manner as he shall think fit. It is a new and original, principle of legislation. I am not certain from the point of view of some of my hon. Friends that it might not be a useful principle of legislation. I am thinking particularly of the landlord interest. What a simple thing it would be to set up a Board to tax the landlord, interest and to compensate some of them with the money of the others. There are enormous possibilities of dealing with every trade and interest in the country on the lines of this Bill. You make an agreement with a few people in a trade and you then say that it is binding upon the whole. You bring a Bill before Parliament, and you claim that you have an excellent precedent in the Coal Mines Control Agreement (Confirmation) Bill, under which such things can be done. I have an old-fashioned idea that when you want to raise money in this country even if it be to compensate backward coal-owners, it had better be raised in the annual budget, and it had better Come on the Consolidated Fund and be accounted for in the ordinary way. If a department is to be set up that department should be paid for out of public funds, and not out of a levy upon a particular trade. We have gradually eliminated different systems, and in the past we have found that our present system of raising money and accounting for that money is, in the long run, the safest. It might not appear quite so simple as this system of working one trade inside this country as if there were an imperium in, imperio wholly remote for the government of the coal trade, but at the same time the old system proved satisfactory and safe and in war-time, when active criticism and Press comment is at a minimum, we had better keep to the old safe methods rather than embark on a new method such as this.
Every penny of the money must be accounted for.
That is an extraordinary thing. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary was not in the House during the speech of the President of the Board of Trade, because my hon. Friend below me (Mr. D. Mason) got up twice and asked about that and he was told in each case that the President himself would have the disposal of the money.
He did not say it would never be accounted for.
I think he actually used the words.
The hon. Member is making a mistake. He is not accurate.
You were not in the Chamber when he spoke.
I was. I have been here during every minute of the Debate.
Would the hon. Gentleman mind pointing out to me the Clause in this remarkable agreement where that accountability appears?
All the money is to be paid to the Inland Revenue Commissioners and it must be accounted for.
I am very glad to hear it, but if is absolutely contrary to the speech of the President of the Board of Trade, and it is not to be found in the agreement as I read it. However, I pass from that. First, I object to passing: a Bill blindfold, a Bill which we are not allowed to amend in one single particular. Secondly, I object to taxing a particular trade and using the money got from that particular trade to compensate other people in that trade and to pay officials of a Government Department. Those are two bad principles. Thirdly, I have to this Bill the same objection that I have to the special taxation of the shipping industry. It is true that the special taxation of the shipping industry was provided for in the Budget, while this is not even done in the Budget. It is true that the special taxation of the shipping industry went to help the general finances of the country, while here the money is not going to help the finances of the country, but is going to help backward or unfortunate coal-owners. Even in the case of the special taxation of the shipping industry, that was a departure from the established practice thoroughly deplorable in our annals of taxation. If you once commit the injustice of picking out one trade for special penalisation, you create a feeling of injustice and instability throughout the country, which far outweighs any small benefit you may get from that special form of taxation. I am strongly in favour of an increased Income Tax, because it would penalise everybody all round. If there is any sum of money to be raised for this country, I would rather raise it equitably than by the special penalisation of some particular class that might have happened to be picked out, even by the newspaper Press, for special abuse and calumny. I am quite certain that the Government will find, if they wish to keep up the moral of the country and keep the people of this country solid in favour of a satisfactory termination of the War, the best thing they can do is to prevent the growth of the feeling of sectional unfairness and the feeling of injustice, which must necessarily spring from treatment such as this. I am against the special penalisation of any trade.
I have another objection, which I hold in common with the coal-owners who have spoken, including the hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir J. Harmood-Banner). We have tried, from every point of view and with every sort of brain, to enable the State to conduct the industry of this country. We have established offices, we have got business men in to run them, we have created month by month fresh Departments to control industry, we have taken fresh hotels till we now have a Department which deals with the taking of hotels. With all this apotheosis of bureaucracy which has been going on during the last three years, you would have thought that at the end of three years bureaucracy would know something about conducting business. Every fresh business they take up, whether it be agriculture, shipping, shipbuilding or mining, they carry on worse than the people who were conducting that business before they took it. Can the hon. Gentleman quote me any exception to that rule?
Every one.
I am very glad to have the opinion of a bureaucrat in favour of the bureaucracy. It must be obvious, indeed, that any State Department conducting a business which they have not conducted before will find it very difficult. Infinitely more difficult will it be in a business like coal owning, because there are many times more branches of that business, and it is a business which will be conducted with an endless series of forms which people cannot fill up, and which will depend upon a system of checks and balances of profit never heard of before. I do not believe that bureaucracy is half so clever as some of the worshippers of bureaucracy believe it to be. We should be very chary of and look very carefully into such a scheme as this, which not only gives powers to a Department but which takes powers in the Bill to pay that Department itself. For all these reasons I look upon this Bill with great and grave suspicion. Unfortunately, we have now got into the habit of passing, more or less in a hole and corner manner, all sorts of small Bills, about which Members are too occupied in other directions to take much interest. It is well known that there are some ninety Members of this House in the pay of individual Departments. Many other Members, probably half of the remainder, are doing Executive work, and are no longer carrying on the critical work that used to be carried on by the House of Commons. In such times as these it is exceptionally easy for these bureaucratic measures to slip through. There are a few officials interested in getting a Bill through. There are few people, indeed, watching the public interest and trying to see where and how the public as a whole, apart from the interests concerned, come in. It is all the more incumbent upon us few who still remain here and still have the time—unfortunately, some of us think —to spare for public criticism to view with grave suspicion a Bill such as this and to see that, at least, it obtains adequate discussion.
I fully agree with my hon. and gallant Friend (Commander Wedgwood) that this Bill is really the last word in bureaucracy. Our position is very largely justified by the interruption which came from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. My hon. and gallant Friend was pointing out how tremendously difficult it would be to control this great industry through a Department, but the right hon. Gentleman said it was quite simple. He may think it perfectly simple. He may think he is the genius to do it. I believe his occupation has been the very excellent one of railway clerk and editor of a small paper, but does he suggest that he is going successfully to control or is able to explain how under this Bill this vast industry with its output of 300,000,000 tons a year is going to be controlled? It is ridiculous to believe that we are to look for any public benefit from this method of control. But what I cannot understand is why there should be any agreement at all, why we should be told that one of our dictators, the Coal Controller, has entered into an agreement with certain members of an industry, an agreement which we are not allowed to amend, and which is inexplicable, and which we are told we must assent to in the public interest. Why should not the Government determine what is a just measure to impose upon the coal-owner and what is a just way in which to deal with this industry and ask us to assent or dissent? It seems to be a novel principle altogether. But I object to the Bill because I do not think any good service is likely to be obtained by an extension of control in any direction, at any rate at a time when people are sick and tired of seeing all the absurdities and blunders which are being committed. It seems that every week or every day a new Department is created, and then immediately follow all the absurdities which come from the methods of those Departments. It is a bad time to ask us to extend control.
But I think there is a certain opposition which has been advanced by the coal-owners which the Government might well meet. One agreement which has been put forward by each of the speakers is that this industry has been specially singled out for taxation in respect of the fact that 95 per cent. of the excess profits are to be taken. That grievance might well be remedied by the Government taking 95 per cent. as regards all industries. The colliery proprietors have said they would view this Bill in quite a different way if it did not single them out for such taxation. I would urge the Government to meet them in that respect by extending the taxation to other industries. Take, for instance, the argument used by my hon. Friend (Sir J. Walton). He pointed out the extortionate plunder that the landowners of the country are exacting from the mining industry, because of the enormous increase in timber which is required, and he said, "Why is not the former land reformer seeing to this?" I do not think he need look to the Prime Minister in that respect any more. The Prime Minister is more concerned at present in seeing that the landowners get royalties on petroleum that the State may find and exploit. He need not base any great hopes of rectification of this seeming injustice upon the Prime Minister in his present mood, and seeing the present company that he is keeping. But, again, dealing with this question of the absorption of 15 per cent. of the excess profits, I entirely agree with my hon. and gallant Friend that it is altogether wrong in principle to make this levy and never bring it into the Exchequer, but allow some Controller to allocate it according as he may think fit. I would ask the President of the Board of Trade to tell me what will be the position as regards this agreement if the State is compelled, as it very likely will be, to increase the Excess Profits Tax up to, say, 95 per cent.? Will the tax override this agreement? If that 95 per cent. is taken in taxation, what becomes of the agreement? I should like to know whether an increase of the Excess Profit Tax will virtually undermine the whole basis of this agreement.
Under the agreement they get three-quarters of what is left.
I should like to have that assurance from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. The Government produces a new agreement, places it on the Table of the House, and by the method so well described by my hon. and gallant Friend it becomes law without the House of Commons having any opportunity to criticise or oppose. This measure seems to me to be the last word in the extension of bureaucratic control, and in the taking away from the House of Commons of any opportunity of criticising or infiuencing a legislation.
When we negotiated with the Board of trade and the Controller we naturally opposed these things, but in the end one came to see that something had to be done, and we made an agreement and I was more or less a consenting party. But since then tins Bill is brought into the House, introducing this agreement which is going to be made the law of the land. We did not know when we made it that we were going to be placed under the most severe penalties I have ever heard of before. The last two speakers have drawn attention to Clause 2, in which the Government takes power to abrogate the agreement at the discretion of the Controller. We have heard to-night all over the House different coal-owners say this agreement is ultra vires, because the coal trade in general did not agree; with it. Therefore you could not bind them all to it, and for that reason the right hon. Gentleman has to bring the Bill in. How is the new agreement going to be made effective? Is it a right tiling that any new agreement should be brought in and made into law without this House having any chance of criticising or amending it? These are very crucial things. We are also told that although you have come to this agreement, with the coal-owners you have added this Bill, which makes it more drastic, and yet we are to have no opportunity of amending it, although it is practically the Schedule of the Bill. This, I submit, is a departure from Parliamentary procedure. I am speaking now by way of protest against the manner in which this question is being dealt with. The President of the Board of Trade told us that he hoped a 15 per cent. levy on the remainder of the excess profits would provide sufficient money to fulfil the guarantee to the less successful mines. But when we pass an Act of Parliament we want to have something more than that—something more than hopes and aspirations. We want to know what we are committing the country to spending. We ought to know more about it.
I put this to the House as a practical mine-owner myself, that if a man or a company has got a coal mine which made a certain profit standard before the War by getting out a certain amount of coal and he is committed by Ace of Parliament to agree that if he gets out any more he will only receive 5 per cent. of the profit accruing from that additional production, he is not likely, especially if he is a director responsible to shareholders, to try and get more coal out of the pit. He will ask, "Why should I get more out than is necessary to produce exactly my standard profit? Why should I get more out, if my shareholders are only to receive 5 per cent. of the profits on the additional output?" Mine-owners are common-sense people.
No!
Well, they ought to be. Any man who has the direction of a company, if he has the interests of his shareholders at heart, would naturally say, "I am not going to pull more coal out of the pit, for the coal is the capital of the mine and of the company. I am not going to pull more out in order to produce a greater profit than I made before the War, seeing that only 5 per cent. of that additional profit will go to the shareholders." He would feel he would not be doing his duty by his shareholders if he did such a thing. I say nothing about patriotism. I am speaking of what a common-sense director would do in such a case, and I put it to the President of the Board of Trade, Is it likely that he would take any other course?
10.0 P.M.
But, suppose that a very large majority did prove so patriotic that they produced more coal than was necessary to return their standard profit, and suppose that the amount thereby obtained—it is extremely unlikely—proved insufficient on a levy of 15 per cent. to pay the guarantee to the poorer mines. Under these circumstances we come to the point, where is the money coming from to make up the deficit? We have been told that this is not a money Bill, that it imposes no charge upon the country, that no charge can be made upon the Consolidated Fund. We want them to know where is the money coming from to make up the deficit. We are told that the Controller, under that Bill, is responsible that the money shall be found. I have not heard any satisfactory answer to the question put by an hon. Member as to whether the Controller personally was to be responsible, and would have to pay it out of his own pocket. The President of the Board of Trade has told us simply that the money would have to be found, and that if necessary he would eventually have to come to Parliament for a Vote of Credit or for power to raise the money in some other way. Is not that a very clumsy way of doing things? When passing a Bill of this nature, why do you not ask the House for a Vote of Credit straight away to make up any deficit in the levy. Why do you leave it in the clouds, so to speak? Why do you not tell the House what the country is going to be let in for if the Bill is passed? You are asking the House to pass this Bill, and we do not know what liability is involved.
There is another thing. I may be wrong, but suppose the coal-owners and boards of colliery directors are so patriotic as to do what the President of the Board of Trade hopes they will do, produce a great deal more coal, and, as a result, the 15 per cent. levy realises such a large sum that it will be more than sufficient to pay the weak mines. I think we ought to take into consideration contingencies of that sort. What is going to happen to the balance, should there be one? The Bill provides that if there is a balance, after paying the expenses of taking an hotel for the offices of the Food Controller, it should be used to pay up to the extent of 40 per cent. the amount disbursed by the association. But what if there is a balance after that? What is to become of it? I put a question to the Coal Controller yesterday and asked him if it would not be fair, should there be any balance, to give it back to the people who had provided the money? He replied that there was no idea of doing that at all. It would go back to the Exchequer. And yet we are now told that this is not a Money Bill. Such a statement is incomprehensible to me. It has been ruled, however, that It is not a Money Bill, and yet if there is any balance after 40 per cent. has been repaid to those people who found the money it must go somewhere, and I say a mine-owner has the right to know where it is going. It has been stated that it is going back to the Exchequer——
I may point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that that is not provided for in the Bill. It may or may not go back to the Exchequer. Who knows?
I bow, of course, to what you tell me. I would only venture respectfully to say that I asked that question yesterday of the Coal Controller personally, and he told me it was to go back to the Exchequer.
It will not go back to the Exchequer unless there is some provision in an Act of Parliament for that purpose. The Controller has to obtain the sanction of the House to hand it to the Treasury.
Is there any provision that the money should be paid to the Coal Controller?
It is to be paid to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, who will hold it under the direction of the Coal Controller.
The Bill does not say so.
On that point of Order. May I ask whether, if it goes to the Inland Revenue, it does not go into the Treasury through the Customs?
No; I have pointed out two or three times that there is no provision for paying it into the Consolidated Fund. It remains in the name of the Inland Revenue Commissioners under the direction of the Coal Controller.
I am only too delighted to hear your ruling on that point, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure the House will be glad to know that if there is any balance the Controller cannot take it into the Exchequer, but that this House will dispose of whatever that balance may be. I think that is quite a satisfactory conclusion for the owners. I should like to put this point to the House: Is there any precedent in any Government office or in any Government control whatsoever of the expenses of the office and Controller—I will take the Food Controller or any other Controller you like—being paid out of the trade? In this case it is, and I put that to the House. I do not know whether it is going to be a large or a small office, but here is a case where all the expenses of the office of the control are taken out of a levy from the coal-owners—out of the 15 per cent. I should like to say that as a coal-owner myself I have no objection whatever to paying the 15 per cent. If the 20 per cent. were taken I should have no objection, but I should like to ask why every trade is not treated alike? Why should one trade be singled out for special treatment? If it is necessary to take all excess profits from traders. we shall be only too ready to pay them all but what the coal-trades do feel is that this is special treatment meted out to them that is not meted out to the rest of the trades of the country. I think after what has occurred to-day and the different things we have heard, as to whether we are going to be able to amend this agreement in Committee; what is going to become of the money; how it is going to be raised; whether it is to be in this way or the other, makes the whole thing such a muddle and so irregular that I advise the House not to pass the Second Reading, and I give the right hon. Gentleman fair warning that I shall vote against it.
I think, before the Second Reading of this Bill is taken, most hon. Members will hope that some further explanation of this Bill will be given by the right hon. Gentleman or by the Home Secretary. I think it is very expedient, if such an answer should be given, because this most important Bill is cast in such a form that there can be practically no effective discussion in Committee at all. Here we are carrying out what is virtually the nationalisation of the coal mines of the country, because this Act, when it comes into force will, I am sure, last for a period after the War, and will probably become a permanent settlement. Yet this settlement, on lines winch are quite revolutionary, is cast in such a form that no Member can say a word regarding, or suggest one Amendment of, the terms on which that revolution is carried out. Therefore, I hope the House will forgive me if I call attention to one or two points which in other Circumstances, I agree, would be more appropriately raised on the Committee stage discussion. First of all, there is one point to which hon. Members have called attention and which really goes to the whole root of this Bill. This Bill, in effect, provides that an additional tax of 15 per cent. over the 80 per cent. Excess Profits Duty shall be levied on the coal-owners. Under the Bill or under the agreement which forms the Schedule of the Bill, that extra 15 per cent. is paid to the Inland Revenue Commissioners. I have read this agreement and this Bill through again and again, and I cannot find any machinery providing for, or any clause of the agreement, which says what is to become of this 15 per cent. when it gets into the hands of the Inland Revenue Commissioners. We have been told again and again in the course of the Debate, and I think by the right hon. Gentleman himself, that the Coal Controller would have to disburse this 15 per cent., but I ask the President of the Board of Trade to point out where in this agreement there is the smallest provision that any payment shall be made from the hands of the Inland Revenue Commissioners into the hands of the Coal Controller. As I read the agreement, and as I understand the Bill, this 15 per cent. when it gets to the Inland Revenue will remain there, and as to what will become of it I can only echo the words of Mr. Speaker, "Who knows?"
Then I would ask, Is there any provision for the Coal Controller accounting for this money at all? Let us assume that the view of the Government is right, and that the money is under the control of the Coal Controller. Can the right hon. Gentleman point to any provision in the Bill at all by which the Coal Controller is to account for it? Are any accounts going to be laid before Parliament? I need hardly say I make no reflection on the Coal Controller in any shape or form, but is he to have this 15 per cent. in addition to the 80 per cent., to be accountable to no one, and to disburse it almost at his own sweet will and pleasure? I think before the Bill goes through that is a point upon which we should have a satisfactory answer from the Front Bench. I will point out that we are entitled to have it on the Second Reading, because in the Committee stage of the Bill we are precluded from making any Amendment to this Schedule at all. I would point out, further, to the hon. Gentleman who is going to reply that there, is no provision for the payment by the Inland Revenue Commissioners to the Goal Controller and I would ask whether the Government have realised the very heavy liability they are putting on the Coal Controller under paragraph 4 of the Agreement, which reads as follows: tinguished lawyer, is present. I am sure he has brought his clear brain to this agreement, and if anyone could make it intelligible he could. I think before we pass on we are entitled to know the precise meaning of Clause 4, and whether we are placing a heavier liability on the Coal Controller than perhaps either the Government or the Coal Controller realise. I would point out that the liability is a somewhat heavy one. There are a great number of small collieries being carried on at a loss. If they are to be kept going they will be guaranteed under this agreement with the Coal Controller, and I assure the right hon. Gentleman, from some little knowledge of the coal trade in one part of the country, that that will be a very heavy liability. We do invite the right hon. Gentleman to give some explanation of what the effect of this will be, because I have read it again and again, and parts of it, I think, are almost unintelligible.
There is one point in this Bill which needs to be made clear, and that is the question of general policy. I presume that the effect of this agreement, or the object of this agreement, is that the Government contemplate that it is necessary to close a good many of the smaller mines in this country. We ought to be told whether that is so or not. Day by day these smaller men are asking me, "What is going to become of us?" That applies to a great many mines in Scotland, I would remind hon. Members who represent Scottish constituencies. Many of them are worked at a very scanty profit, and are not so productive as the larger coalfields in this country. Is it the policy of the Board of Trade to close these mines? I do not think anyone could quarrel about it if it were so; certainly the larger collieries would not be any great complainers about that. It may be necessary, owing to the increasing demand for man-power for the Army, to close some of these mines. I would ask the Board of Trade whether that is the policy. What is to be the effect of this guarantee on the collieries that are closed? I will not attempt to try to explain to the House what the effect of this guaranteed standard will be. This guaranteed standard will involve a very heavy liability on many of these small coal mines. Supposing they are closed—and I take it that some of them will be closed—I would like to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether in any case he will consider whether it is possible to give the owners some further measure of relief. Under Clause 10, Sub-clause ( c ), it is provided it has been used in so many cases, to make up the deficiency. Those are the main points.
There is another vital point of the Bill which has been put by several speakers. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give reconsideration to Clause 2 of the Bill. I know he has not been in Parliament a long time, and I do not know whether he realises that Parliament looks rather jealously on the powers given to any Government Department. Great as are the powers that have been given to Government Departments during the present War, there is no power anything approaching Clause 2 which has been vested in a Government Department. You are now-carrying out a measure for nationalising the coal trade under a scheme which the House cannot discuss in detail owing to the form of the Bill. You have gone one better than that. You can say that if this scheme of nationalisation does not suit you can carry through another, and Parliament shall not have an opportunity of discussing it. I have no wish to make the task of the right hon. Gentleman difficult, or to oppose the Bill, but for many Members of this House the passage of the Bill will be made easier if he says frankly before the Second Reading that Clause 2 will disappear.
I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade if he cannot alter the Schedule, to give us some explanation of paragraph 15. There are very few stops in it, but I will read it and put in the stops as I go on:
"15. Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, and so far as not repugnant thereto, profits shall be the amount of the profits as determined or determinable under the Act and excess of profits over the profits standard for the purposes of this Agreement shall be computed and coal mines excess payments shall be assessed and collected by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue in like manner as the excess of profits over the profits standard for the purposes of Excess Profits Duty is computed and payments of that Duty are assessed and collected, and the provisions of the Act (including those relating to appeals) shall apply accordingly."
Is there any Member of this House who can construe that paragraph as I have endeavoured to read it? It is very important that we should have an explanation of this paragraph which is so sacrosanct that it cannot be amended. Then paragraph 22, says:
"No dividends shall be paid and no loans repaid in respect of any undertaking without the consent of the Controller."
I ask the attention of the House to those words. It is well known that a large number of banks have lent money to various coal mines. It is also well known that banks never lend money for a longer period than six months. Under this paragraph every loan by a bank becomes a permanent loan unless the Controller gives his consent. Was there ever such a paragraph in any Bill introduced into this House at any time, and especially at a time when the financial state of this country is by no means too good and when anything which ties up the liquid assets of the bank ought certainly to be avoided? I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should withdraw the Bill and bring in a Bill which everybody could understand. It might consist simply of one Clause: "The Coal Controller can take possession of any mine in his country and he could dispose of the net profits as he thinks fit."
I cannot speak with authority on this Bill, and, though I was engaged for many years in the management of collieries, it is so long ago that I cannot speak with any authority on the present position; but I happened to represent a very large colliery district in South Ayrshire, and I found it difficult to answer certain questions which were put to me about this Bill. I considered it my duty, therefore, to listen to what hon. Members representing colliery districts had to say about this, and to try if I could to understand the matter thoroughly. The Bill should be in a form in which everybody could understand it, so that all the people interested should be able to suggest such Amendments and alterations as they thought necessary in their own interests. This Bill has been described as a step towards nationalisation or national control of the coal industries of the Kingdom. I am not going to consider how far that is a fact or not. Whatever it is, I am willing to suppose the intention has a good deal of good in it in that direction. But that is no reason. All I can say is that we must see that the Bill is intelligible, and that a proper opportunity is afforded for for Amendments Is not this a novel way of proceeding, a very unusual way? We start with the authorities who have signed this agreement. They have no power to bind anybody else. They may have consulted with people, they may have good intentions, but they have no power to make an agreement except on their own behalf. Having made-this agreement, they come to Parliament to do what they call confirm and ratify it. You may ratify the agreement as much as you like, but that will not bind anybody else. You can only ratify it in the case of people who have full power of contract, and to ratify the agreement will not carry any obligation upon others. A, B and C make an agreement that is to be binding on all the rest of the alphabet, and then they come to Parliament to get it confirmed and ratified. You cannot do that by a form of agreement, except it be done by direct enactment. I think that was very well foreseen in the initiatory discussion before the Bill was moved. Whatever else you may do, you cannot do it in the Schedule. You may call it an agreement, but it is no more an agreement than the piece of paper on which the terms are written. An agreement between certain people gives them no power over anybody else. It is a record of terms agreed between them, and then they come to Parliament to make it final upon others. I do not think colliery owners throughout the country will be willing to follow their representatives in this House in this wholesale way. Provisions are put in the Schedule, and of all the unintelligible ways of proceeding that is the worst. In certain unopposed Bills, if you want to put an agreement in the Schedule, you have to insert a rather difficult and complicated Clause in the Bill itself. But to do that on the scale which seems to be required here would make a most unintelligible jumble of this measure. What is to be done? I do not like, when the Bill is intended for a good object, as I believe it is, to indulge merely in, destructive criticism I do not know whether after the Second Reading of the Bill wholesale Amendments might be made having the object of taking out the Clauses of the Schedule and making them intelligible, and putting them into the body of the Bill. I rather despair of that being done by any other process. I think the promoters of the Bill, who I believe have a good intention, would gain their end better if they were to withdraw it now and do as I have suggested.
I am sure many hon. Members will agree with the hon. Member who has just spoken, and with the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City, that the best course for the Government to adopt is to withdraw this Bill. There has not been a single speech in favour of the Bill except that of the President. Many of us would feel indisposed in a national emergency to interfere with the Government, yet we do believe that this is an unsound Bill financially and that we are entitled to ask the Government to withdraw and recast it. An hon. and learned Friend referred particularly to financial control. The President told me that the Controller was not accountable to the Treasury but to Parliament. In a further interruption by an hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary said that the funds and the levy for making up the deficit went to the Inland Revenue authorities and, as has been pointed out, that is a very absurd proposition. It was held from the Chair that this amount which went to the control of the Inland Revenue did not come into the Exchequer but remained in suspense under the control of the Coal Controller. Was there ever so absurd a proposition put before Parliament? We are responsible for the control of finance, and here is a provision under which a certain amount of money goes to the credit of the Coal Controller to the Inland Revenue authorities and does not, as it ought to do, go into the Exchequer. Surely all sums which come to the Inland Revenue through the Customs or otherwise ought to go automatically into the Treasury and be under the control of Parliament. Under the provisions of this Bill and to be consistent with Mr. Speaker's ruling to prevent the Bill being a money measure this money is to remain in suspense. Under whose control is it to be? Parliament is thrust aside and we might as well not debate this measure since the control of the finance is taken away from us. Certain arrangements are entered into of a financial character with a very important industry. We think we do control finance, but in this instance it is taken away from our supervision and given to this autocrat who is to keep this sum under the control of the Inland Revenue. That, I think, must surely appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary as most unsound and in defiance of the traditions of this House. I cannot conceive that the Government were really aware of this provi- sion when they brought the Bill in. The President seemed very hazy with regard to what was to become of this sum. What has become of it? Yet we are asked to give powers to confirm this irregularity, and a thing quite in defiance of the traditions of this House, which always has, and ought to, maintain a strict control over finance. It is a most extraordinary agreement, and is contained in the second Clause. Here, again, if the agreement is not satisfactory the Controller has to have the power, without coming to Parliament, to enter into further agreements. Why are we being asked to confirm this agreement? It is a fresh method in legislation. It is the Government doing a thing and then coming here for confirmation, whereas it ought to have been originated here and been confirmed here, and also by another place. Legislation now is entirely conceived and brought forth by this national Cabinet, and we are content to ratify the work done, whether or not we agree with it! There has been enough said to-night to show that there is no support for this measure that it is financially unsound, that it will bear no criticism, that it relates to an agreement that never really came before Parliament, and was never discussed by us, and which Parliament is unable to amend in any shape or form. We talk of legislation by reference! Here we have to confirm agreements in which we have he say and never had. We are not even given control of the finance, which we have always regarded as one of our inherent rights, and to which surely we have always attached the greatest importance.
This measure is calculated to discourage coal-mining, and the production of coal. It is said that it was brought in to allay unrest, and to prevent the working and other classes from being unfairly treated by profiteers, that the Government is taking control of the coal mines and other industries to prevent strikes in South Wales and elsewhere. While one may in these times subscribe to some measure of Government control we would be false to the trust placed upon us by our constituencies if we gave away our greatest control—namely, that over finance—if we subscribe to that which we believe to be financially unsound. Therefore, I submit from the point of view of legislation and of transport that we ought to say what we believe on this matter. The President of the Board of Trade told us that more coal had come into London since Government control had been exercised than before.
How much?
Then it was stated again by an hon. Member that the facilities for the supply and delivery of coal had increased. Have they? Is it not a well-known fact that there is the greatest difficulty in getting coal, and that poor people have been starving in this respect? Where is this coal stored? To ask us to subscribe to a measure which we believe to be financially unsound, which we believe will not attain the object for which it is intended, which has been demonstrated by every single speaker to be unworkable, and calculated to do the very reverse of that intended—I say in the face of the accumulated evidence our appeal ought to be responded to by the Government withdrawing the Bill.
There has been a very great deal of misunderstanding both with regard to the scope of this Bill and what it is proposed to effect. First of all, let me say this Bill does not attempt to control the mines. The mines are already controlled. They have been controlled under the Defence of the Realm Act. They are under the Coal Controller at the present moment, and this Bill is to ratify an agreement which was entered into by the Coal Controller with the owners' representative associations as to the terms which should be applied during the period of control. That is what the Bill does, and it does not go beyond the period of control. Therefore, a great deal of the criticism which has been levelled against this Bill is entirely beside the murk. It was absolutely a national necessity at the time that the coal mines of the country should be controlled. It was a necessity from the point of view of transport, and it was a necessity from the point of view of—[An HON. MEMBER: "The Labour party!"]—the nation as a whole, and not for any single part of it taken individually. Therefore, when you come to the question of the terms which had to be applied, there was no simple remedy like there was in the case of the railways, where there was an Act of Parliament under which an agreement could be made, and was made, when the Government took over the railways, but you have here an industry by which an agreement had to be sought. Who is there who can speak for the industry? The difficulty of finding anyone who can speak for the whole part of any trade in this country is an exceedingly great difficulty, and here there was an association in existence which purported to speak for 95 per cent. of the trade. It is true it was one association. It is true that it could not, under the circumstances of the time, bind everyone of its members, but let me remind the House that complaints are continually being made in this House and elsewhere that trade unions fail to carry out their agreements and cannot enforce them, and here we have an employers' association which has entered into an agreement, and yet we have certain recalcitrant Members coming down and trying to upset an agreement which has been entered into by the executive council of its representative association, after prolonged negotiations have taken place. And why do they want to upset this agreement?
Fair play all round.
One would believe that this agreement was in some way or another to the disadvantage of the community. There is nothing in this agreement, so far as I can see which is in any way a disadvantage to the community. As between one coal-owner and another there may be differences of opinion as to whether some coal-owners benefit more by the agreement or not, or as to whether some suffer by the agreement or not, but, taking the whole of the coal trade altogether, this agreement does not treat the coal trade unfairly, and if it did we should have to say to the coal-owners, so far as they are concerned, at any rate, You must carry out the advice which you give to the trade unions when you say, 'If you have made a bad bargain you ought to stick to it.'" [An HON. MEMBER: "The trade unions never do."] Yet the trade unions have often stuck to a bad Bargain, but even if that were not so it would not justify the coal-owners in setting them a bad example, and it will not justify them in following a bad example. Undoubtedly this is a somewhat difficult and complicated agreement, but the question which this House ought to consider is in what way the public interest is prejudiced by it. Not a single speaker during this Debate has shown in any way how the public interest is militated against by the agreement which this House is being asked to ratify. I come now to the question of the incidence of taxation. This Bill does not tax the coal-owners. They say that in order to meet the circumstances which have arisen in regard to coal control they are willing that 15 per cent. of the excess profits shall be put aside in a guarantee fund in order that other coal-owners who suffer with regard to their profits shall be compensated out of that. That is not taxing them, that is an arrangement by which the strong help the weak, by which certain coal-owners help those who have to suffer under this agreement, and inevitably so, because it is impossible to carry out a great scheme of a national character without some one suffering. As long as they were willing that that should be the method by which this result should be achieved, I cannot see how it can be called taxation by any stretch of the imagination. It is a guarantee that they will make a levy on the trade in order to compensate those who suffer. If you decrease the profits of a coal mine through control it is the same thing, it is compensation. A great deal has been said as to what is to be done with the 15 per cent. I want to direct the attention of the House to this fact, and I beg the House to realise that the whole question of the coal trade in its application to the national situation, both with regard to transport and the carrying on of the War, is an exceedingly serious problem. The Government would not have taken control of this trade unless they had been compelled to do so in the national interest. Having taken over this control, they have to deal with this question. It is impossible to say what will be the result of this 15 per cent. guarantee. We cannot say that it will exactly meet the demands made upon it. We cannot say whether the 15 per cent. will leave a deficit or whether there will be a surplus. I venture to say that there is no one in the House, and no one in the country, however expertly advised, who can lay down any absolutely fixed rule and say that such and such a levy will meet it exactly. Therefore the result must, to a certain extent, be problematical. Then, the right hon. and gallant Gentleman (General Hickman) and members of the coal trade want to know who is going to meet the deficiency, if there is one, or what is going to become of the surplus, if there is any. The answer, surely is simple. If there is a deficit, then, having ratified this agreement, the House of Commons would be responsible to the Coal Controller for the money. [HON. MEMBERS: "Not at all."] I do not say from the point of view of the money; I say from the point of view of honour. They make themselves responsible by ratifying this agreement that they will see that the deficit, if there is any, is made good. It is not the first time that the House of Commons has entered into a moral obligation which it has fulfilled. If there is a deficit, it is bound to come from somewhere, and it is the intention of the Coal Controller and of the Government to ask Parliament, if there be such a deficit, to make it good. There may be no deficit. We do not expect that there will be. We believe that the 15 per cent. will be sufficient. That is why the agreement was made on the 15 per cent. basis; but we cannot answer for £100,000 or £1,000,000 in such a gigantic transaction as this. [An HON. MEMBER: "It is a gamble."] It is not a gamble at all. It is a reasonable proposition to put before the House. If there is a surplus, surely it is quite a simple proceeding to come down to the House and say: "Here, after we have carried out this coal control, after we have paid all the duos which come against the Controller"—[An HON. MEMBER: "And the officials!"]—that is comparatively a mere bagatelle—"there is a surplus which we ask to be allowed to hand over to the House."
To the House!
The right hon. Gentleman knows what I mean—to the National Exchequer.
Then you make it a tax!
Surely the hon. and gallant Gentleman knows very well that it is not a tax. Here is a compensation fund which is being set up, and if, after the compensation has been paid, there is a surplus in the hands of the Controller or of the Inland Revenue, something will have to be done with it. If the hon. Gentleman or any Member of the House asks that there should be set up a compensation fund of this kind exactly fitted to the limit, and that there should be neither a possible deficit nor a possible surplus, he is asking an impossibility and something which he never asks from any Chancellor of the Exchequer when he tries to put forward a Budget for the whole expenditure of the year. A great deal has been said about control. I do not propose to go into that question to-night.
Will the hon. Gentleman tell us where in the agreement provision is made for the payment from the Inland Revenue Commissioners to the Coal Controller, and what machinery is provided for doing it?
I do not think there is any necessity that there should be actually in this agreement words which say that this particular fund is held by the Inland Revenue to the account of the Coal Controller, but it must be evident to the hon. Gentleman, as a matter of business, that that is what will happen. The money will be held by the Inland Revenue, and they will be responsible for what passes in and out, so that there is a check upon expenditure, and if there is a Bill presented against it they will have the right to see that the Bill is of the proper character, and one that ought to be carried out according to the agreement. There is thus every protection in that fact. Everything will be accounted for. There is no intention whatever of withdrawing from the control of this House any expenditure, and the whole of the accounts of the Coal Controller will be put before it.
It is unfortunate that with a Bill of the complexity of the one which we are now discussing we should not have the advantage of the presence of a Law Officer. To the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken—whom we all congratulate upon his elevation to his present post—we always listen with pleasure, but we are not accustomed to look to him for illumination on legal difficulties.
There is no measure which has been presented to the House within the memory of any hon. Member present so complex, so difficult of interpretation, as that we are now discussing. In these circumstances, when the right hon. Gentleman undertook to answer the conundrum propounded to him by my hon. Friend (Mr. Roch), I was inclined to think that he was guilty of a little recklessness. We have an agreement here which must be subjected to the ordinary canons of legal interpretation. There is a provision for the payment of certain moneys by certain people to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, but there is no explicit provision in the agreement for the payment by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue of that money to anybody else. There is a provision which says that the Coal Controller will be responsible for paying to certain other people other money, but there is nothing to indicate that there is any relation whatever between the money which is payable to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue and the money which is payable by the Coal Controller. We are in this extraordinary position, that the instrument in which this ridiculous conflict or confusion of provisions occurs, is an instrument which is incapable of Amendment by us in this House. In these circumstances, obviously the House should not part with the discussion on the Second Reading of this Bill, which is really the only effective opportunity we have for discussing it, without some account of this matter from a Law Officer of the Crown. Among the many somewhat disputable propositions put forward by the right hon. Gentleman, there was one to the effect that the control of coal mines was secured under the Defence of the Realm Act without this Bill at all.
It being Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed upon Monday next.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at One minute after Eleven o'clock till Monday next, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February.