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Commons Chamber

Volume 100: debated on Monday 3 December 1917

House of Commons

Monday, December 3, 1917

Trade of Australia

Copy presented of Report to the Board of Trade on the position of the Import Trade of Australia in July, 1917, by Mr. G. T. Milne, His Majesty's Trade Commissioner for the Commonwealth of Australia [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Shops Act, 1912

Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the undermentioned local authorities, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:

County of Essex (urban district of Grays);

Borough of Gillingham

[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Ministry of Food

Copy presented of Margarine (Maximum Prices) Order, 1917, Oats Products (Retail Prices) Order. 1917, and Butter (Distribution Order), 1917, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

National Health Insurance Joint Committee

Copy presented of Return as to the Administration of Sanatorium Benefit from 12th January, 1914, to 31st December, 1914, and from 1st January, 1915, to 31st December, 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

National Health Insurance Commission (Wales)

Copy presented of Provisional Regulations made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, acting jointly with the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Medical Benefit) Regulations (Wales), 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Public Education (Ireland)

Copy presented of Allocation of the Supplementary Grant for Primary Education in Ireland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Irish Land Commission

Copy presented of Index to Estates comprised in Returns of Advances made under the Irish Land Acts, 1903 to 1909, during the year 1915 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland

Copy presented of the Compensation for Gooseberry Bushes (County Kilkenny) Order, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

East India

Copy presented of Report on Sanitary Measures in India for 1915–16. Volume XLIX. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Copy presented of Statistical Abstract relating to British India from 1905–6 to 1914–15. Fiftieth Number [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Control of Mines (Train Mileage)

asked the President of the Board of Trade how, in consequence of having control of output of mines, the 700,000,000 ton miles estimated by the Coal Controller are going to be saved; how the figure is arrived at; whether all the railway companies interested in the scheme were consulted; and what does the alleged saving of 700,000,000 ton miles represent in train miles

The saving in haulage to which the hon. Member refers is effected under the operation of the Coal Transport Reorganisation Scheme, the object of which is to secure the consumption of coal as near as possible to the point of production. The figure of 700,000,000 ton miles was based on the tonnages of coal affected in each of the colliery districts, and the reduction in haulage secured by the transfer of these tonnages from one district to another. The railway companies chiefly concerned were consulted as regards the effect of the scheme on the working of their systems. I may add that estimates which have since been prepared by certain of the railway companies of the saving actually effected tend to confirm the original estimated saving for the country as a whole. As regards the last part of the question, a train load is a variable quantity, but the figure of 700,000,000 ton miles may be taken to correspond roughly to 2,000,000 train miles, apart from the haulage of the empty wagons back to the collieries.

Has there been any real advantage to any part of the country arising from this, and in what part has that advantage been given?

As regards the first part of the question, certainly there has been very great advantage, but I should require notice as to the other part of the question.

May I ask if it is not a fact that the railway companies are complaining of the great dislocation in consequence of the manner in which this matter has been handled by the Board of Trade?

Parcels for Soldiers (Weight Limit)

asked (1) the President of the Board of Trade whether he can arrange that the railroads should accept parcels for soldiers at the front which weigh less than 11 lbs., the lowest weight at present accepted by the railroads, but over 7 lbs., the highest weight at present accepted by the Post Office; (2) the Postmaster-General whether he can see his way to accept parcels for soldiers at the front which weigh over 7 lbs. but under 11 lbs., the lowest weight accepted by the railways, charging, if necessary, an extra rate on everything over 7 lbs. in order to get the senders to realise the difficulty of transportation but preventing poor people who make up parcels for their soldier boys at the front and have no scales with which to weigh the parcels from having them thrown back on their hands as too heavy for transportation by the Post Office and too light for transportation by the railroads?

The President of the Board of Trade has asked me to answer question No. 2. The maximum weight for parcels sent by post to soldiers at the front was reduced from 11 lbs. to 7 lbs. in order to reduce the heavy strain on the transport services, both in this country, by sea, and at the front, caused by the great development of the use of the postal service. The transport difficulties are no less now than when the restriction was introduced, and I could not agree to any proposal which would have the effect of increasing the bulk of the Army parcel mails. If, as the hon. Member suggests, parcels between 7 and 11 lbs. were accepted by the military forwarding service, such parcels would only be liable to postage at the inland rate or carriage at the railway parcel rate to the port of embarkation; these rates are appreciably less than those charged on parcels addressed directly by post to an Expeditionary Force, and the result would naturally be a substantial increase in the number of heavy parcels, which it is essential to avoid. The restriction has been in force for nearly two years, and the very small number of complaints which have come under my notice seems to indicate that the inconvenience occasioned by the gap between the maximum weight transmissible by post and the minimum transmissible through the military forwarding office is not appreciable.

Explosives (Manufacture)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if wood-pulp can be and is used substitute for cotton in the manufacture of explosives; and, if so, if he will explain why, in the interest of this country, large wood-pulping plants hitherto owned by an English company are allowed to be sold to a Norwegian syndicate?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given by my Noble Friend the Minister of Blockade to the hon. Member for West Ham on the 19th ultimo.

May I ask whether wood-pulp is not used in the manufacture of gun cotton, high explosives, synthetic rubber, and other such things?

I think it is very undesirable to go into what can and what cannot be made out of various raw materials.

But have not these matters been disclosed constantly in scientific books and other documents?

I do not think they should be discussed across the floor of the House of Commons.

Did not the late American Ambassador in his book, "My Four Years in Germany," say that the Germans claimed to be using wood-pulp in place of cotton for explosives?

That book can be read by anybody. The Secretary to the Treasury is not responsible for its contents.

asked whether during September, 1915, our total imports of wood-pulp were 125,823 tons; in September, 1916, 70,265 tons, and in September, 1917, 33,433 tons; whether the bulk of the original import came from Scandinavia; whether the cellulose fabrics of Scandinavia have been earning from 50 to 250 per cent, profit; and whether he can state, approximately, where the bulk of the Scandinavian productions have been consumed?

The figures are as stated in the question, and the bulk of the import is from Scandinavia. I am unable to say what are the profits of the cellulose factories. Owing to the non-publication of trade statistics of the Scandinavian countries it is impossible to state definitely the destination of their exports of pulp.

Questions

Indigo Works, Port Ellesmere

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the indigo works at Port Ellesmere have been sold or leased by the Government to Messrs. Levinstein; if British Dyes, Limited, a company formed under Government auspices for the purpose of manufacturing indigo and other dyes, was allowed to make a competitive tender for the purchase of these works; and, if not, will he explain why this course was not adopted?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the late President of the Board of Trade to the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs on the 19th October, 1916, of which I am sending him a copy.

Foreign Companies (Warrants to Bearer)

asked if the Government has now come to a decision with respect to the introduction of legislation dealing with foreign companies whose shares are in the form of share warrants to bearer?

This question is being considered in conjunction with possible amendments of the law relating to companies incorporated in this country, but no decision has been come to at present.

Tramway Commission

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the chairman of the new Tramway Commission which has just been set up is a salaried appointment; if so, what salary will be paid; if the other members of the Commission will also be paid; and, if so, at what rate?

It is not proposed to pay salaries to the chairman or the members of the committee, who will give their services gratuitously.

Railway Season Tickets

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now make any statement as to the decision of the Railway Executive Committee as regards the increased price of season tickets recently made by certain railway companies in London and district; and whether, in view of the hardship of this increase at the present time to regular travellers, many of whom are workers employed on fixed salaries, he can issue instructions to the Committee that all further increases shall be stopped and those made in the last months shall be refunded?

Full inquiry has been made into this matter, and I find that the increases referred to are only those which arise from time to time in the ordinary operations of the railways, and average in the case of third class season tickets an increase of only between 1d. and 2d. per week. I am also informed that the company in question issues very cheap weekly tickets, their cost in most instances being less proportionately than that of season tickets.

Can, the hon. Gentleman tell me whether these increases will, be stopped in the future, or whether the companies are going to increase them?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received a copy of a letter addressed by the general manager of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company to the Beddington and Wallington Urban District Council; whether he can say what are the abuses referred to in the last paragraph of the letter; whether, if any abuse does exist, he will see that the offenders are dealt with and not permit the season-ticket holders as a whole to be penalised; whether this threat to withdraw season tickets has received his sanction; and is he aware that this company advertises extensively the advantages of living on their line and invites the purchase of season tickets?

The council have furnished me with a copy of the letter referred to. I understand that the abuses alluded to in the letter are failure to produce season tickets on demand, and the improper transfer of tickets. It would rest with the company to take action to stop any abuses. I am informed that the company has no desire to withdraw the issue of season tickets.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of abolishing the regulation compelling season ticket holders to show their tickets each journey, as it is very inconvenient and quite unnecessary?

Kellner-Partington Wood-Pulp Company

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will inquire of the Kellner-Partington Wood-Pulp Company and inform the House as to the total amounts of chemical wood-pulp and cellulose manufactured by this company which were imported into the United Kingdom in the years 1914,1915,1916, and 1917; and whether the Board of Trade or any other Government Department have received any guarantees that the British Government or other purchasers in the United Kingdom will be enabled to purchase the products of this undertaking which are useful for making munitions of war after the assets and property of the company have been transferred to foreign purchasers?

I do not think any useful purpose would be served by making inquiries as suggested in the first part of my hon. Friend's question. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the proposed transfer of the assets and property of the Kellner-Partington Wood-Pulp Company, Limited, to foreign purchasers has been brought to the attention of the Board of Trade and has been considered by them, having regard especially to the case of the Aramayo Francke mines which was before the Court of Appeal on 22nd and 23rd January last; and whether he has given his approval to such transfer?

I am aware of the proposed sale of shares of the Kellner-Partington Paper Pulp Company, Limited, to foreign purchasers, but the grounds on which the Board of Trade thought it desirable to apply to the Court in the case referred to by my hon. Friend are not present in this case.

Can the hon. Gentleman state what is the origin of all these questions put clown about this company?

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Aramayo Francke Company was scotched by the Court on the application of the Board of Trade, on the ground that their products might be munitions of war going to the enemy, and does not that principle apply exactly to the present case?

That was not the ground—at least, not the only ground—on which the application was made to the Court.

No; the main ground was that it was being sold to an entirely Swiss company.

Was it not that these products and the distribution of them would be taken out of the jurisdiction of the British Courts of law and put under a foreign company, as here?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (l) whether he is aware that the products of the Kellner-Partington Wood Pulp Company, which are produced in Norway, Sweden, and Austria, are of the utmost value for the manufacture of munitions of war; whether he will state the date on which an undertaking was obtained from the foreign purchasers of the assets and property of this company not to sell the products of this company to enemy purchasers; whether he will state to whom such undertaking was given and the names of the persons by whom it was given; whether he will lay a copy of such undertaking upon the Table of the House; (2) whether he will state by what means it is proposed to enforce the undertaking given by the foreign purchasers of the assets and property of the Kellner-Partington Wood Pulp Company not to sell the products of the company which are made in Norway, Sweden, and Austria to enemy purchasers; how it is proposed to prevent persons who purchase these products from the new owners of the Kellner-Partington Wood Pulp undertaking from reselling these products either directly or through intermediaries to enemy purchasers?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (l) whether he has carefully studied the geographical position of the Kellner-Partington Company's most important works at Borregaard and Hafslund, Norway; whether he is aware that it closely abuts on Swedish territory; that goods can be quickly forwarded into Gothenburg only a few miles away; that, if Germany wishes to acquire this company's output either of pulp or such derivative products as industrial alcohol, all she has to do is to appoint fitting agents with offices in Gothenburg, and then by forwarding the goods to the Malmo-Copenhagen ferry, which conveys rail waggons across the strait, they can be delivered at Warnemunde, in Mecklenburg, in a few hours' time, while by the simple device of appointing further agents in Copenhagen it may be made to appear to the Norwegian vendors that the goods were sold to Danes, and would be entered as such in the Swedish exports to Denmark; in view of these opportunities, if he will say what value is attached to an undertaking given by a foreign syndicate not to sell munition-making goods to the enemy; (2) whether he has any official information with reference to the information recently published in the "Labour Gazette" concerning the shortage of textiles in Germany; whether military uniforms are being diluted with cellulose and paper yarns; whether, in this respect, he is aware that the forests of Sweden are very important to the industry of paper textiles on account of their excellent sources of coniferous wood-pulps for the making of sulphite paper such as is used for textiles; whether he is aware that in 1909 the Kellner-Partington Wood Pulp Company raised an additional £600,000 of capital to acquire a large tract of such forests in Sweden; and whether, as the import of these forest products into Germany will materially assist in neutralising the value of any cotton blockade we and our American Allies may impose, he will now take steps to stop the sale of this company?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether there is now a perfected German invention by which chemical wood-pulp can be made to produce a high explosive of enormous use to Germany instead of cotton; whether the sale of the Kellner-Partington business includes forests which will be able in some way to be used to supply Germany with chemical wood pulp; if he will say whether this Kellner-Partington transfer is being financed partly by a Swedish bank and by Swedish people, and, as the capital is only one and a-half million pounds, why are seven millions to be paid for it, unless. Germany has some interest in getting it through; in view of these circumstances, if he will stop the transfer for six months; (2) whether one Hans Lagerlof, president of the Scandinavian-American Trading Company, and a prominent merchant in the Swedish wood-pulp trade, was recently detained on a journey from America to Stockholm, and a considerable amount of rubber and a quantity of tungsten in his possession condemned as contraband; whether letters in Lagerlof's possession showed his enemy sympathies; whether this person, his firm, or his agents have been in the habit both in Sweden and Norway of purchasing quantities of chemical wood-pulp ostensibly for shipment to the United States, but which, when delivered, has been forwarded by both Swedish steam ferries into Germany; what will be the position of the managers of the Kellner-Partington Company's works in Sweden and Norway if this person or his agents come to make purchases apparently in the name of the Scandinavian-American Trading Company; (3) whether he will state the reason for the prohibition of imports from Sweden; whether it applies to all imports; whether, as a consequence of this prohibition, Norway is raising the price of both mechanical and chemical wood-pulp to buyers in this country; whether, as a result of this prohibition, Sweden will be compelled to rely entirely on Germany as her most important customer for timber, timber products, wood-pulp and its derivative products, and iron ore; and whether, as the Norwegian Government and the Bank of Norway, in purchasing the Kellner-Partington Wood-Pulp Company's works both in Sweden and in Norway, gave an undertaking not to sell the output to the enemy, he will state what policy they will adopt with respect to the output of the Swedish mills, in view of the fact that the goods cannot be imported here?

The Foreign Office is asked in these questions—other Departments are asked in a number of other questions—to make a number of detailed examinations, not only into the property and business of the Kellner-Partington Company and the wood-pulp trade with Scandinavia, but into the antecedents of a number of persons very remotely, if at all connected with the transaction impeached. I have already replied as fully as I can to a number of these questions, and I am quite ready to discuss and defend the principles upon which the Government acted in this matter. I have informed the House that the contract for sale is now completed, that the Norwegian Government have given guarantees as to the purchasers, and we have received full assurances as to the disposal of the output from these properties—assurances that can be enforced by withholding essential supplies, if necessary. There was, as I think, no ground on which the Treasury could be advised to refuse its sanction to the sale, and I venture to submit that no public service is now done by requiring very hard-worked officials to devote a large part of their time to making investigations which have no real bearing on the issue involved.

As the right hon. Gentleman has several times referred in this House to this undertaking which is said to have been given, will he lay a copy of it upon the Table, in accordance with practice?

Will the Noble Lord send a copy to the Member of the Government who is president of the organisation which has inspired these questions—the Minister of Pensions?

Will my right hon. Friend tell me whether he will lay the full facts about this company which are in his possession before the Board of Trade, who then will have the power to apply to the Court, if they think fit, to stop this sale?

Of course, I shall give any information that I have for which the Board of Trade asks me in connection with this matter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Board of Trade can apply to the Court to stop this sale?

No; that is a legal matter on which I should not venture to express an opinion.

asked the Prime Minister whether the proposed transfer of the assets and property of the Kellner-Partington Wood-Pulp Company, Limited, to foreign purchasers has been considered by the War Cabinet; and whether, in view of the value of chemical wood-pulp and other products of this company for the manufacture of munitions of war, he will prohibit the sale of this undertaking by its present owners, who are British subjects and over whom the British Government and the English Courts have control, to foreign purchasers, over whom neither the British Government nor the English Courts have any control?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the last part, I can add nothing to previous replies on this subject.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the chance of allowing our enemies to buy munitions of war at present made by this company is of sufficient importance to bring the matter before the War Cabinet?

Most certainly, but the reply given by my Noble Friend shows that in his opinion the necessary precautions have been taken.

Food Supplies

Valencia Raisins (Import Licences)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that a licence to import Valencia raisins has been refused to a Portsmouth firm and that recently several firms in the North of England have been granted licences for the same purpose; and, if so, whether he will state the reason why the South of England should receive different treatment from the North of England?

In conformity with the policy of the Food Controller under the Dried Fruit (Restriction) Order, 1917, dated 8th September, the Department of Import Restrictions ceased as from that date to issue import licences for dried fruit except on the recommendation of the Ministry of Food. Import licences were, however, issued or promised in respect of all dried fruit definitely contracted for by importers before that date. It thus may well be that the facts are as stated in the first part of the question, but the reason for the differential treatment has no reference to the geographical situation of the firms.

Has the attention of the hon. Gentleman been called to the marked preference being given in respect of those licences to one locality over another? Will he see that is put right?

How is the decision taken between different applications for these licences?

The answer I have just given answers that completely. Only orders that were given before were allowed to have licences.

Agricultural Workers

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture what steps he proposes to take to prevent agricultural workers now engaged m necessary food production from being enticed away for the upkeep of luxury gardens and pleasure pastures?

No steps have been taken to prevent agricultural workers from entering the service of those who occupy land not devoted to the growing of food. But it seems to me that attempts to induce any person employed on producing food for man or beast to leave that essential work for employment on ornamental gardening is an unpatriotic act, which cannot be too strongly condemned.

Have the Government taken any steps to prevent this unpatriotic action being performed?

Ploughing Tractors (Motor Spirit)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether there is a sufficiency of motor spirit and skilled labour to ensure the full employment of all the ploughing tractors that the Government have and expect to have during the coming four months?

Contracts were placed several months ago for sufficient motor spirit to cover the estimated requirements of the Department's tractors during the whole period referred to, and it is hoped that deliveries can be relied on. With regard to skilled labour for ploughing tractors, arrangements are being made to train the necessary men in sufficient time to man the tractors so soon as they are delivered.

Tenant-Right Valuations

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether, in order to facilitate the ploughing up of grass and ley lands on farms of which the tenants have given or are under notice to leave next Lady Day, the Government will by order under the Defence of the Realm Act or otherwise lay down that tenant-right valuers in making their valuations as between outgoing and incoming tenants shall take as the measure of their valuation for such lands the actual cost of ploughing as shown by the receipts from the county executive committee where the ploughing has been done by that committee under any of the Board's schemes, from the farmer who has done the ploughing for his neighbour, and, where the outgoing tenant has himself done the ploughing, the tenant-right valuers shall fix not less than a rate equivalent to the rates fixed in the above-mentioned cases?

The Board have no power to require valuers to allow the actual cost of ploughing, but they have suggested to the Central Association of Tenant Bight Valuers that they should use their influence to get the practice adopted where it is consistent with the terms of the contract of tenancy expressed or implied. The matter is now under consideration by the association.

Sugar Order (New System of Coupons)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he has received a protest from the Islington Food Committee against the new Sugar Order; whether it requires that a different system of distribution is to be enforced from 1st January from that previously arranged; if he can explain the difference between the two plans; and if the 56,000,000 forms printed for the former will be wasted?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, if a person who applied for a sugar card in September last and duly received one from the local committee for one or more persons, and who has lodged the same with a local grocer, who has accepted it by signing and returning the half of the card, will be able to obtain the sugar allowed him under the Order with this card, or has he now to make a fresh application to the grocer for a voucher card for each person on the original ticket; and, if not, will he state in clear language what persons must apply for voucher tickets, and under what conditions?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that many persons are puzzled as to the new arrangement in connection with the sugar rations; and if he proposes to issue a detailed statement?

asked if the new arrangement for the rationing of sugar entails upon each householder who had obtained a sugar ticket under the old arrangement making a new declaration and obtaining new individual tickets?

A new system of coupons has been introduced for persons removing from the households in which they have been registered, and for persons who, because frequently moving from place to place or for any other reason, have not been registered in households. The coupon system will apply only to a limited number of persons.

It has, however, been necessary at the same time to require every registered householder to make a fresh declaration regarding his household. Each householder must fill up declarations (upon forms which will be issued to him by his retailer) in respect of each person originally registered by him who is still a member of his household, and return the correct number of declarations in the envelope provided by the retailer. In exchange for those declarations he will then receive from his retailer tickets to the number of his household in lieu of the existing sugar ticket bearing that number.

These declarations are necessary to prevent sugar being supplied to a household for the original gross number of its members when this number has been reduced by removals, and the individual tickets have been introduced with a view to providing for subsequent removals. In making the change regard has also been had to the fact that the sugar distribution scheme may be required to serve as the basis of a subsequent rationing system for essential foods.

Does that mean that everybody, including infants, will have to receive a separate sugar ticket, and, if so, are the sugar tickets transferable?

Infants are considerable consumers of sugar, and their parents will answer for them on the declaration form.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why, if this scheme is necessary, it was not published in the first instance, and whether it is anticipated that the local authorities and the retailers will be able to set on foot this vast new machinery in time for it to come into operation on the day which was contemplated?

The answer to the second part of the question is that we anticipate that those concerned will be able to deal with the requirements of the scheme. In regard to the first part, my reply is that this answer is supplemental to other answers which I have given on other points raised, and is in no way inconsistent with those answers.

Will these coupons be obtainable from the retailer, and will the householder have to apply for them in person or will the retailer send them to the householder?

Were the facts which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned present in the mind of the Food Controller when he issued the cards for the distribution of sugar, and, if so, why did he not act upon them, instead of wasting all this time and spending large sums of money which might have been prevented by a little foresight?

Can the hon. Gentleman say if the new card which is supplied by the retailer compel all persons to state their age, and, if so, why women and children are to state their age on the new application form?

It has been thought necessary to require sugar consumers to state their age.

How does the hon. Gentleman suppose we shall ever get through a system of compulsory rationing if we have this chaos?

I think the experience of the hon. Gentleman will be an answer. We have to go through this experience.

Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider this question about stating the age, and also that it is very detrimental to a number of workers of advanced age to state their age to their employers?

Are we to understand that these sugar forms will be available from any retailer or must they necessarily be obtained from the retailer who first issued the forms?

There is no change in this supplemental system. As regards the position of the retailer, it is the same as before.

Is the hon. Gentleman making arrangements to issue these cards to soldiers as they leave the Army, or when they are discharged from the Army will they find themselves without sugar when they become civilians?

Can the hon. Gentleman say by what date the shopkeepers have to send the form of declaration to the consumer or whether they will be sent without application?

I beg to ask the Leader of the House a question, of which I have given Private Notice—whether, in view of the political situation of Lord Lansdowne, he will make a statement to the House—

Questions

British Ships (Insurance)

asked whether War-risk insurance premiums are based on losses of British ships by enemy operations; if the premium recently reduced to 7 per cent, for ninety-one days, equivalent to 28 per cent, per annum, represents an j estimated loss of 28 per cent, of the British shipping employed in overseas trade; and, I as it has been officially stated that the object aimed at by the Government in fixing rates is to make the premiums cover the losses without either loss or profit, will a further reduction be made on the present rate of 7 per cent, for 91 days?

War risk insurance premiums are based on the best estimate that can be formed at the time as to the probable rate of loss, having regard to the fact that the rate is a flat rate, and that no selection can be made in respect of voyages or values. The rate to which the hon. Member refers is a quarterly rate, not an annual one, and applies to requisitioned liners only. It will be reduced if circumstances show this can safely be done.

Am I to understand that the quarterly rate of 7 per cent, as the equivalent of 28 per cent, per annum is based on the actual losses of ships?

It is based on an estimate. In some cases there is a slight profit and in others a loss.

Enemy Businesses

asked whether an offer to purchase a parcel of land and factory at the rear of City Road Police Station, E.C., has been made by Stollwerck Brothers, a firm of German confectioners whose business has been wound up; and, if so, whether he is prepared to sanction the purchase?

No offer to purchase land has been made by Stollwerck Brothers, Limited, but leases of certain property to that company have recently been completed, in pursuance of a building agreement entered into before the War. The grant of these leases will enable the Controller appointed to wind up the business to offer the premises for sale.

Defence of the Realm Regulations

"Young India."

asked (1) whether the Secretary of State in India was consulted as to the advisability of raiding the office of the Indian Home Rule League as recommended by the Home Office; and, if so, whether he gave his sanction for the raid; (2) whether the Secretary of State in India has yet approved in any way of the raiding of the office of the Indian Home Rule League or of the seizing of "Young India"?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I made to his question on 28th November. The Secretary of State for India was on his voyage when the India Office drew the attention of the Home Office to the book. Thereupon the decision as to what action, if any, should be taken became a Home Office matter. The Secretary of State, being absent, has not had cause to consider the matter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Home Office stated that after having their attention drawn to the book they consulted the India Office before making the raid, and will be answer that part of the question as to whether the second consultation with the India Office was made with the knowledge of the Secretary of State, who was then in India?

Not with the knowledge of the Secretary of State. He was not in India at the time.

Has the Secretary of State since approved of this raid, whether by telegram or otherwise?

As I have stated in my answer, the Secretary of State has not had cause to consider the matter.

Leaflets (Censorship)

asked the Home Secretary how far Regulation 27 c applies to newspapers and periodicals; whether it will be necessary for leading articles and paragraphs commenting on the War to be submitted before publication to the official of the Press Bureau; whether such articles must be signed in future by the writers of same; and whether it will be permissible to distribute newspapers free that do not conform to Regulation 27 c?

The Regulation does not apply to newspapers and periodicals which were in existence when the Regulation was made.

May I ask for some explanation of the differentiation between, wealthy newspapers and publishers of leaflets replying to statements in newspapers which are sometimes very much against the national interest?

There is an obvious difference between leaflets, which are printed and circulated day by day, and newspapers, which are published once for all.

Is it not a fact that newspaper proprietors very often give their newspapers away free?

asked the Home Secretary whether the directors of the Press Bureau have decided that a leaflet criticising Regulation 27 c adversely must be considered to come under the Regulation itself; and, if so, whether they came to that decision after consultation, with him?

I am informed by the directors of the Press Bureau that they have given no such decision.

asked the Home Secretary how, under Regulation, 27 c (Defence of the Realm Act), he proposes to deal with election literature referring to the War and which has to be produced and issued under pressure of time?

asked the Home Secretary when he hopes to be able to make any statement respecting the modification of Regulation 27 c, relating to the censorship of leaflets?

asked the Home Secretary whether he has noticed the consensus of view that Regulation 27 c is unworkable and unfair; and whether he will now announce the withdrawal of this Regulation?

asked the Home Secretary whether he will embody in his promised modification of Regulation 27 c an arrangement by which leaflets may be submitted in Glasgow, or elsewhere in Scotland, to some person on behalf of the Censor?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State on Tuesday last to a question on this point.

Are we to understand that publishers in Glasgow are to send matter up to London?

Greece

Appointment of Mixed Commission

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government or the Allies generally exercise any control over the money either lent or given to Greece since the beginning of the War; and, if so, to what extent and in what direction is that control exercised?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, it is proposed to establish a mixed Commission to assist the Greek Government in the application of the funds provided, but the exact scope of this Commission has not as yet been definitely settled.

Ex-King Constantine

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information which would lead him to believe that the Greek Government pays to ex-King Constantine either directly or indirectly any sum of money; if so, whether the governments of the Allied Powers protecting Greece have any right to intervene in this matter; and, if so, whether they have intervened?

I understand that some payment is made, but the matter is essentially the concern of the Greek Legislature, and is not one in which His Majesty's Government have any reason to intervene.

Would it not arise from the answer that, as a matter of course, Greece does pay ex-King Constantine and the Allies, principally England, pay Greece?

I think that would arise from the answer. It is necessary to treat Greece in a way which I am sure the House would wish her to be treated, and, of course, we must give them some discretion an the matter.

M. Venizelos (Visit to England)

asked whether during the recent visit of M. Venizelos to this country, my understanding was reached as to the future of Cyprus or regarding other territorial aspirations of the Greek nation?

Questions

Persia (Anglo-Russian Convention)

asked whether by any agreement or understanding arrived at during the War this country has expressed its intention, or taken power, to establish British influence over that part of Persia declared to be neutral in the agreement with Russia made in 1907?

No definite proposals have been made in the matter, although His Majesty's Government have signified to the Russian Government that a revision of the Anglo-Russian Convention in the sense indicated will be a matter for eventual discussion between the two Governments.

Russia

Commercial Treaty, 1859

asked whether this country has denounced the commercial treaty with Russia made in 1859; if so, whether the treaty is to terminate on 24th October, 1918; what are the reasons for which this treaty has been denounced; whether the present Government of Russia is agreeable to this course; and whether present circumstances afford ground for an earlier termination of all treaties concluded with Russia?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The treaty was denounced by the Russian Government on October 24th last, and will expire on the same date next year. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Anglo-French Russian Agreement

asked (1) whether, as agreed in the Anglo-French-Russian Agreement of 21st February, 1917, France is to receive at the close of the War from the Turkish Dominions in Asia the seaboard of Syria, the Adana vilayet, and part of Lesser Armenia; whether it is still the intention of the Allies, and confirmed by the Allied War Conference, to fight on till this is obtained; (2) whether the Memorandum of Agreement, recently published in the Press, dated 21st February, 1917, between Russia, France, and England concerning the future of Asiatic Turkey is still binding on the Allies; whether by this arrangement Russia is to receive the Erzerum, Trebizond, Bitlis, and Van vilayets, and Kurdistan down to the Persian frontier; and whether the objects in this agreement are the war aims of the Allies?

No agreement of the nature mentioned was come to in the early part of this year. Such understandings with respect to Asia Minor as were come to between the Powers named did not involve annexations.

Secret Documents

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received any copy of the secret documents of the Russian Foreign Ministry recently published in Petrograd; and, if not, will he obtain copies as soon as possible through our Ambassador in Petrograd?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, there is no reason to doubt that Sir G. Buchanan will send home copies of these publications in the ordinary course.

asked whether, in view of the fact that secret agreements between the Governments of Russia and France for the acquisition of territory had been entered into without consultation with the British Government and without its support, he proposes to take any steps to remove the impression created by Ministerial denials to Members who in this House have urged that such agreements had been entered into?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the publication in Petrograd of a secret treaty between Italy and France, Russia, and Great Britain, in which the three latter Powers contracted to support Italy in her not allowing representatives of the Holy See to take diplomatic steps for the conclusion of peace or in matters pertaining to the present War; and can he state whether the existence of this treaty was the reason for the British Government not replying to the peace note of the Pope?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second in the negative.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the publication in Petrograd of the secret treaty between Great Britain, France, Russia, and Italy, in which the first three Powers agree to Italy annexing Trentino and Southern Tyrol, Istria, Dalmatia, certain Islands in the Grecian Archipælago, and territory in Asia Minor and Africa; and can he say when this treaty was entered into and whether it was still operative at the time when the Government of M. Kerensky was informed that its aims for peace without annexations was in accord with the aims of the British Government?

I feel that the best reply to the hon. Member's question will be to lay before the House the reply returned by His Majesty's Government to the Note addressed to them by the Russian Government on the 3rd of May last.

Conference in Switzerland

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware of the communication, dated 27th September, 1917, from the Russian Minister in Berne to M. Terestchenko, Russian Foreign Minister, giving various particulars of the conference in Switzerland of English, French, and German financiers; and whether he will now make further inquiries or give full information on this matter?

I have nothing to add to the reply returned on 28th November. As far as I can learn, the whole story is a misapprehension or an invention.

Germany and Russia

asked whether, and, if so, at what date, the British Foreign Office had knowedge of the scheme of agreement between Germany and Russia by which, under certain conditions, Germany would give Russia diplomatic support to secure a decision of the Straits question favourable to Russia; and, if this was known to the British Government before the War, whether any effort was made by diplomacy to attain a pacific solution of the problem of the Straits?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the second part does not, therefore, arise.

Terestchenko's Dispatch

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the publication in Petrograd of a dispatch sent by Terestchenko, then Foreign Minister, to the Ambassadors abroad, dated 9th October, stating that the British, French, and Italian Ambassadors in Petrograd had informed M. Kerensky that the state of Russia would force the public opinion of their countries to demand an exact account for the material assistance given; and can he state whether such action was in fact taken by the British Ambassador and under his instructions?

Yes, Sir. Sir C. Buchanan was instructed to urge upon the Russian Government the restoration of order and the reorganisation of Russian military and economic forces. He was to point out that the supply of munitions was not unlimited and must be made with regard to the method and value of the employment given to them.

So far as these representations concern the internal affairs of Russia, was not this action detrimental to M. Kerensky?

I do not think so. The Government have to consider the interests of the Allies as a whole in these matters.

Is it a fact that the American Government refused to participate in this pressure upon Russia?

Questions

Sailors and Soldiers (Gifts for Land Settlement)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture what is the acreage presented to date to the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries under the provisions of the Act authorising the Board to accept gifts of land for the settlement of sailors and soldiers; and the districts in which the various gifts of land are situated?

Under the provisions of the Sailors and Soldiers (Gifts for Land Settlement) Act, 300 acres have been given in Herefordshire and 225 acres at Ampthill, in Bedfordshire.

Government Departments (Officials)

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether an effort has recently been made by one Government Department to attract to the service of that Department by the offer of a higher salary an official employed by a war agricultural executive committee in carrying out the work of the Board of Agriculture in the production of food; and if he will either allow such committees to pay their officials salaries equal to those paid by other Departments for work of not greater importance or take such steps to discourage such action by these Departments as may be open to him?

The Board recognise the desirability of avoiding competition between Government Departments for the services of public officials. If further particulars of the case referred to are supplied, the Board will take up the matter with the Government Department concerned.

Sale of Honours and Party Funds

asked the Prime Minister whether he proposes to take any steps to prevent for the future the sale of honours and the continuance of the system of secret party funds?

Can my right hon. Friend say whether a prominent shipowner of German origin has bought a peerage for £100,000?

If my hon. Friend refers to anything at the present time or recently, I can say at once that there is no truth in any such statement.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any undertaking with regard to the latter part of the question as to the publication of the party funds?

The answer to which I have referred dealt with that subject. I can add nothing to them. It is a matter which requires more consideration than we are at present able to give or than the question would suggest.

The previous answer, to which I have referred my hon. Friend, was that in my opinion the utility of publication was very doubtful, and I still think so. The matter requires a great deal more examination.

My hon, and gallant Friend evidently speaks with knowledge on this subject. I have none.

Victoria Cross (Women)

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that whereas men who perform deeds of bravery in the field may be rewarded with the Victoria Cross, no woman serving in the battle zone has yet received an honour higher than the Military Medal; whether it would be contrary to the King's Regulations to recommend a woman for the Victoria Cross; and, if so, whether he will advise such alterations in those Regulations as will permit of the recommending of the Victoria Cross for women?

When a case arises in which a woman performs an action in the circumstances contemplated by the Victoria Cross Warrant, consideration will be given to an extension of the conditions. At present this warrant would not, I think, admit of a grant.

Man-Power (Economy)

asked the Prime Minister whether he will grant opportunities in Secret Session to discuss the Motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Newcastle and others with reference to the expenditure of manpower in the field? ["That, in the opinion of this House, it is the duty of His Majesty's Government to exercise the greatest care that the expenditure of our man-power in the field be not out of proportion to the results obtained thereby; and that if in any case they may be in doubt as to whether such care has been exercised by those in authority under them an inquiry should be ordered, on which civilian opinion may be represented."]

I am afraid that I cannot promise time for the discussion of this Motion.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, if the Government agree with the terms of the Motion, or any part of it, whether they will communicate it at once to the Generals in the field?

I do not quite follow what my hon. and gallant Friend means. The Government certainly do agree that there should be no waste of man-power, and the Generals in the field know that is their view.

Is the House to have an opportunity soon of discussing the whole question of man-power?

I hope that an opportunity may be found before the end of the Session; but I can say no more.

Will the right hon. Gentleman, in order that we may understand what is happening, announce the number of British casualties from the beginning of the War?

No; I can give no such promise. It has not been done by any of the belligerents, and I doubt the wisdom of our doing it.

Can we not have an opportunity of discussing this matter in Secret Session, so as to avoid publishing the figures to the world?

I certainly do not think such a discussion now would be to the public advantage.

Allied War Council (General Wilson)

asked the Prime Minister whether Lieutenant-General Sir Henry Wilson will make his Reports to the War Cabinet or to the Army Council?

General Wilson's duty will be to make Reports jointly with the other members of the Allied General Staff, and these Reports will go to the Allied War Council.

Lord Lansdowne

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government will give the House an opportunity of discussing at an early date in Secret Session Lord Lansdowne's letter to the "Daily Telegraph" newspaper?

Is the right hon. Gentleman going to commandeer the plant of the "Daily Telegraph" for circulating a pacifist speech?

Can the right hon. Gentleman inform us if the letter of Lord Lansdowne was placed before the Censor either by the Marquess or by the publisher of the newspaper?

asked the Home Secretary whether the publication in leaflet form of Lord Lansdowne's letter upon war aims will require the sanction of the Censor under Regulation 27 c of the Defence of the Realm Act?

Is it not very important that this letter should be circulated amongst the population of this country, as there are many who prefer to be led by Lord Lansdowne to being driven by Lord Northcliffe?

That is certainly not a question for me to answer. My answer only comes to this: A leaflet is a leaflet whoever is the author of it.

Are we to understand that if a leaflet is first of all published in a newspaper it will be all right?

Are we to understand that any action will be taken against the newspaper in question or against the writer of the letter?

Was this statement, in fact, submitted to the Censor at all, or arc any powers held by the Censor?

I do not know whether it was submitted. It is, of course, optional on newspapers to submit letters to the Censor.

If this letter is distributed without being submitted to the Censor, will any charge lie against Lord Lansdowne?

No, but a charge would lie against the person who distributes the leaflet.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been directed to a letter of Lord Lansdowne's appearing in the "Daily Telegraph" of Thursday, 29th November; and, if so, whether he intends to institute proceedings against its author under the Defence of the Realm Act on the ground of giving encouragement to the enemy?

Will the right hon. Gentleman give reparation and security to poor untitled pacifists who have already been prosecuted for offences much less serious?

Not the least difference is made on account of the position or means of the pacifist.

Was not the "Daily Telegraph" guilty of an infringement of the Defence of the Realm Act in publishing a letter without submitting it to the Censor?

I have already said it is wholly optional whether it is submitted to the Censor or not.

Is thereto be no prosecution of Lord Lansdowne, who was guilty of publishing a letter which was a national misfortune?

We cannot prosecute everybody who says or does things which are a national misfortune.

Did Lord Lansdowne, when Foreign Secretary, place a British Army under the heel of a German Field Marshal in China in 1900?

Enemy Air Raids

Government Compensation Scheme

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government will reconsider their decision only to compensate for losses under the raid compensation scheme that occurred after 1st September?

It is clear from the communications which have been made to the Air Raid Compensation Committee that, even if the scheme administered by them were ante-dated by a few months, as has been suggested, many hard cases would still remain which I think the House would wish the Government to meet. On the other hand, I am advised that it would not be feasible to give retrospective effect to the scheme as it stands, irrespective of the means of the claimant and the date when the damage was done. In these circumstances, the Government have decided to adhere to the 1st September as the date from which the scheme is to take effect, but they have under consideration proposals which will enable adequate grants to be made in cases in which persons of comparatively small means are suffering substantial hardship whatever may have been the date of the raid. I hope shortly to be able to make a definite announcement on the subject.

I am only speaking from memory, but I think that provision was already made for them before this step was taken.

Questions

Soldiers' Pensions (Income Tax)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether a discharged soldier's pension is liable to Income Tax; and, if so, whether it comes under the heading of earned or unearned income?

Where the total income from all sources exceeds the exemption limit the soldier's pension is chargeable to Income Tax at the ordinary earned income rate appropriate to the total income.

Government Service (Female Clerks)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is intended to issue khaki uniform to the female clerks in the Government service?

There is no intention of issuing uniform to women clerks in the Government Service generally. The only women clerks entitled to uniforms are the members of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps, who are recruited for service in military establishments.

Sale of Horses Order

asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether his attention has been drawn to complaints that the county war agricultural executive committees in some counties have issued free licences to farmers to sell agricultural horses to the advantage of farmers and dealers in those counties and to the prejudice of farmers in other counties of which the executive committees have strictly observed the terms of the Sale of Agricultural Horses Order; and if he will take any action?

The Board have received information as to certain inconsistencies in the administration of the Sale of Horses Order as between county and county, and the attention of the committees concerned has been called to the matter.

Education (Scotland) Bill

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in the event of a prolongation of the present Session, the Scottish Education Bill will be taken, or, if not, whether it will be given piority next Session; and if he can name a date for its introduction?

I hope that this Bill may obtain a First Reading before the present Session ends. I regret that I cannot in the meantime give any further undertaking.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that the Scottish Education measure is passed in the same Session as the English measure?

Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer mean that it will be introduced before Christmas?

Munitions

Controlled Establishment (Wages)

asked the Minister of Munitions if he is aware that Messrs. Parnall and Sons, shop fitters, of Bristol, is a controlled establishment; that the firm employs a number of discharged soldiers; that they are not paying them the proper district rate of wages; that because the men in question asked for the proper rates to be paid the firm gave them a week's notice, which will terminate on Friday, 30th November; and if be will take action in the matter?

I am informed that this firm recently gave notice of dismissal to three discharged soldiers—two on account of shortness of work and one on the ground that his conduct in the works was unsatisfactory. On representations being made to the firm, they agreed to cancel the notices to the first two soldiers, but they are not willing to re-employ the third. As there is some doubt about the facts as to the rate of pay, I am making further inquiries.

Electric Power Supply

asked the Minister of Munitions who is the controller of the electric power supply at the Ministry of Munitions; has he the power to refuse priority certificates to municipalities who are anxious to extend their plant not only to meet additional loads, but to secure efficiency; is he aware that until recently the controller of the electric supply was one of the consulting engineers to the largest electric company in county Durham; that when he relinquished the appointment to go to another Government Department he was followed as controller of the electric power supply by the manager of a company which is affiliated with or is a part of the above company; and, in view of the past conflict between the municipalities and the companies for the monopoly of the supply of electric power, will he consider the desirability of taking out of the hands of officials interested in companies the power to restrict the development of municipal electricity supplies?

In reply to the first question, the present director of electric power supply is Mr. Arnold Gridley. In reply to the second question the priority certificates referred to are issued by the Priority Department of the Ministry of Munitions after consultation with the Supply Departments of the Ministry. In reply to the third question the late Controller held the appointment mentioned. He was appointed to the staff of the Ministry because of his experience. The reply to the fourth question is in the affirmative. The reply to the fifth question is that I am satisfied that the late and present directors of electric power supply have done excellent work in connection with the supply of electricity throughout the country, and I do not consider that there is any occasion, or that there would be any advantage in making a change.

Miners' Hutments, Cleveland

asked the Minister of Munitions the name of the contractor for the erection of the hutments for miners in Cleveland, the terms of the contract, and the number of miners now resident in the hutments?

Before answering this question, I desire to take the opportunity of correcting answers which I gave to supplementary questions on this subject on the 26th ultimo. I then said that I thought that a number of miners had been billeted in the Cleveland huts, and that they had contributed to the increase in output of iron ore which had been secured. When I spoke, I had in mind what has been done in another part of the North Eastern iron ore fields. The miners, brought into the Cleveland district, were brought back from the Colours, and returned to their own homes. The answer to the question on the Paper is that the contractors for the huts were Messrs. Robert McAlpine and Sons, 2, Central Buildings, Westminster, S.W. The contract was let on a time and material basis, with a basis of profit based on cost, part of which was 4 per cent, and part 3 per cent. No miners are yet resident in the hutments, but it is hoped shortly to commence drafting in men. Arrangements have been made for surplus accommodation to be loaned to the War Office.

Is it the practice of the Ministry of Munitions to encourage increased expenditure by giving contractors a percentage on the outlay, instead of letting contracts by competitive tenders; and would it not have shown greater judgment if, instead of erecting right off hutments for 2,732 miners, the Ministry of Munitions had erected them for a few hundreds to start with and awaited the knowledge—

Perhaps I may answer the first point as to contracts being let on time and line basis. Wherever possible, I agree it is the practice of the Ministry of Munitions to avoid placing contracts on the time and line basis and to place them on competitive tenders. In this case it was not possible to secure the arrangement of the contract on the competitive basis on satisfactory terms, and it was for that reason that the time and line basis was adopted.

Is it not a fact that the drawings were supplied to the contractor and that his permanent staff was actually in Government employ, so that there was nothing to represent the 4 per cent, expenditure on the contract?

Can the hon. Gentleman say what amount has been paid as profit to the contractors so far?

Will the hon. Gentleman endeavour to ascertain the reasons which induced the Department to give a contract on the time and line basis?

Certainly. I will give my right hon. Friend a detailed statement of the reasons.

Workers (Advance in Wages)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the order as to the 12½ per cent, advance to munition workers extends to female workers; if not, whether it is proposed to so extend it; and, if so, what will be the cost thereof?

It is not intended to extend the 12½ per cent. bonus to female workers.

Is the out-turn of the female workers as good in quantity and quality as that of men?

Glycerine

asked the Minister of Munitions whether the supply of small quantities of glycerine to shipowners for the purpose of carrying fresh meat in refrigerated steamers to this country and France has been refused by his Ministry; whether the owners of these steamers on this refusal endeavoured to obtain supplies in the United States, and that a cable from the shipowner's branch house in New York to the Liverpool house was held up by the Censor for four days before delivery at the shipowner's office; whether the explanation given by another Government Department is that the cable contained the word "glycerine" in it; whether this delay in delivering the cable resulted in the glycerine not being shipped as directed; whether the Censor or the Ministry of Munitions was responsible for this delay, which may prevent the carriage of fresh meat from the Argentine for our troops; and whether he can give any assurance that greater care will be displayed in the future?

In order to prevent speculative purchases of glycerine, arrangements were made some time ago, in the interests of ourselves and of our Allies, for the examination of all cables relating to this material. This procedure inevitably causes a certain amount of delay in the delivery of the cables. Under a more recent arrangement, however, cables originating from or addressed to firms in this country will no longer be held up by the Censor.

Then the lack of intelligence and the delay in connection with this cable lie with the Ministry of Munitions?

I do not think that my hon. Friend is entitled to draw that conclusion.

asked the Minister of Munitions whether industrial glycerine is absolutely necessary for the lubrication of cold-air machines used for the purpose of carrying fresh meat in refrigerated steamers owing to the fact that the temperature in the cylinders is as low as 80 to 90 degrees Fahrenheit below zero; whether no substitute has been found, although every effort has been made to find one; whether the Ministry has refused to allow the owners of steamers using cold-air machines to have any glycerine although the requirements of a number of steamers over a period of six months would only be about 8 cwts.; whether this refusal may prevent the conveyance of fresh meat from the Argentine to this country or France; and, seeing that the supply of large quantities of fresh meat for the troops is as important as a small quantity of glycerine for explosive purposes, will he see that the glycerine is supplied to the shipowners requiring the same?

The practice of the Ministry has been for some time past to ask shipowners to obtain their requirements of gycerine at foreign ports at which their vessels may touch, and this as a general rule they have been able to do. The Ministry have, however, issued supplies from time to time to meet emergency requirements. There are considerable quantities of glycerine in the Argentine which are normally exported, and there seems to be no reason why ships trading between the Argentine and this country should not obtain all the glycerine they require for their refrigerating plant in the Argentine itself. In view of the absolute necessity of preserving glycerine for the manufacture of explosives, I am unable to recommend any departure from the arrangements referred to above.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that efforts have been made to obtain this glycerine and have failed?

On what information does the hon. Gentleman base his statement that there is plenty of glycerine for that purpose in the Argentine?

From in formation in my possession. I have already given my hon. Friend (Mr. Houston) the names of some twenty firms who habitually are able to sell glycerine.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that shipowners have already communicated with those firms and have failed to obtain it?

If my hon. Friend tells me that he is unable to get any from any of these firms, his case will come within the exceptions to which I have referred in my answer.

Questions

Working Hours (Women and Young Persons)

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the proof afforded by scientific investigation and practical experience that long hours of work, particularly for women, young persons, and boys, are both economically wasteful and greatly injurious to health, he will at once withdraw the general Order which allows a shift of fourteen hours of work for male and female young persons and boys of fourteen?

The general Order relating to munitions works is under review by the Home Office and Ministry of Munitions, but no decision has yet been reached.

Has any decision as yet been adopted to do away with that Regulation?

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a speech delivered by the Minister of Reconstruction, on 24th November, in which he gave, as a result of investigation, that the output of women's work improved by 50 per cent, owing to the shortening of hours of work from 66 to 45 per week, and that of boys by 29 per cent, as the result of a reduction from 72 to 53 hours per week, and of men engaged on heavy labour by 39 per cent, as the result of a reduction of hours from 58 to 51 per week; and whether, from the point of view of output, the present legal limit of hours of work will be reconsidered.

The Home Office is familiar with the figures quoted, which relate to hourly, not to total, output. When proposals for a closer regulation of factory hours are under consideration, this information, together with the results of other scientific inquiries which have been proceeding into the relation of hours of work to output will be taken into account.

Metropolitan Police (War Bonus)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will refer to the Collins Arbitration Committee the question of a further war bonus to the Metropolitan Police, when the facts for such a Grant could be properly presented?

asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the increase in the cost of living since the outbreak of war and the continued extra duties the police are called upon to perform, he will increase the war bonus of 8s. a week of inspectors, sergeants, and constables of the Metropolitan Police Force; and, if not, whether this War bonus is held to be equivalent to the extra cost of living which has taken place since 1914?

I would refer the hon. Members to the reply I gave to a question by the hon. Member for the Mile End Division of the Tower Hamlets on the 26th November.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to answer the last part of question 83, which was not replied to?

In effect it was. I said that if a case were made for a further bonus it would be considered.

I do not see any reason why the case should not be made through the Commissioners.

Home Office (Sir a. Bodkin)

asked the Home Secretary whether Sir Archibald Bodkin has a special room assigned to him at the Home Office; for what purposes that room is used; and whether Sir Archibald Bodkin has a temporary post, at a salary or otherwise, in connection with Home Office work?

I would refer the horn Member to the reply which I gave to a question on this matter put to me by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme on Wednesday last.

asked the Home Secretary in how many cases, after inquiry by Sir Archibald Bodkin into suspicious propaganda cases, papers have been sent to the Public Prosecutor with a view to a prosecution?

I understand that two such cases have been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions for his consideration.

Interned Enemy Aliens

asked the Home Secretary whether F. Schmidt, a German who was naturalised in 1909 and was the proprietor of a sausage shop and restaurant in Charlotte Street, a meeting place of several Germans noted for their anti-British proclivities, was interned by his Order early this year; whether he has now been released; and, if so, why has this been done?

This man was interned under Regulation 14 B in November, 1916, on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee. The Committee recently reconsidered the case and, as it appeared that the aliens who formerly frequented the man's shop had been interned or dispersed, and that his wife, who had given all possible assistance to the authorities, was in bad health, they recommended that he should now be released. I accordingly ordered his release, subject to certain conditions.

Does not the fact that frequenters of this man's shop had to be interned necessarily prove that he was of enemy association, and that it would have been very much better to keep him interned?

It was not easy to satisfy the Committee on this matter. I know they gave very careful consideration to the case.

Peace by Negotiation (Prohibition of Meetings)

asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that, in spite of the official announcement that the advocacy of peace by negotiations is not being suppressed in this country, a series of meetings at Portsmouth on 15th, 16th, and 17th November have been prohibited on the ground that peace by negotiation would be advocated; and whether he will issue instructions to all chief constables that meetings on this subject are not ipso facto to be prohibited?

Prisoners of War

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) whether the wives and other next-of-kin of British officers and noncommissioned officers who are prisoners of war in Germany will be allowed to proceed to Holland or Switzerland, if they so desire, when their prisoner relatives are transferred from Germany to either of these countries?

The present procedure whereby wives and next-of-kin of British prisoners interned in Switzerland are allowed to visit them will be continued in so far as traffic facilities permit. The question of similar visits to Holland, I fear, does not at present arise, as a serious hitch has taken place in carrying out what I may call the Dutch side of The Hague Agreement. Under Section 11 of that Agreement, able-bodied officers and non-commissioned officers who have been over eighteen months in captivity are to be sent to Holland for internment in the strict order of the dates on which they were captured, irrespective of nationality or other considerations. It has now, however, been proposed by the German Government to depart from the terms of Section 11, and they have actually suggested an arrangement which would enable them to clear the whole of the German prisoners eligible under this Section who were taken up to the end of 1915 before the like category of British prisoners taken up to the end of 1914 could be dealt with. Deeply as we regret any further delay, it is impossible for us to acquiesce in a proposal involving so grave a breach in the Agreement and so palpably unfair to British prisoners.

asked whether a recent announcement in the Press on the lot of British prisoners and how to help them was published by authority and correctly represents the views of the authorities entrusted with the care of our British prisoners of war in Germany and elsewhere; whether the suggestion contained in the article that the public should at once send food and clothing, particularly underclothing and overcoats, is intended to convey the view that the public are now allowed to send such articles, and unless the relatives of prisoners and the public send such articles, and at once, the prisoners will not receive such articles; and whether he can take some steps to prevent such misleading articles being published, which cause great anxiety to the relatives of prisoners, who have been repeatedly refused permission to supply such articles?

I assume that my hon. and gallant Friend refers to the statement which appeared in the "Times" on 24th November. On this assumption the answer to the first and second parts of the question are in the negative. To the concluding part, I am afraid I am not aware of any existing effective control over communications of this nature appearing in the Press. I may add that a corrective to the announcement appeared in the "Times" of the 28th November, which I hope will allay all anxiety and explain the procedure to be followed in the dispatch of articles of clothing to our prisoners.

Naval Courts-Martial

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) whether the public were excluded from the proceedings when Admiral Troubridge was court-martialled; and, if so, on what Statute the Admiralty acted in excluding the public, seeing that the Order in Council giving them the power to exclude the public was not provisionally approved until 23rd May, 1916, or over a year later; and (2), in view of the fact that the articles of the Navy Discipline Act affecting courts-martial are based on the common law, and that it has been the custom of the Board to take the opinions of the Law Officers of the Crown on questions affecting the procedure of courts-martial, whether the Law Officers of the Crown were asked whether Article 65 of the Navy Discipline Act, enabling the Admiralty to regulate court-martial procedure by Orders in Council, covered so wide a departure as that involved in the Order in Council, 23rd May, 1916, and finally approved on 7th July, 1916, fundamentally altering the customs and Regulations of the Navy by holding courts-martial in secret; and, if so, will he state the Law Officers' reply?

It is not the custom of the Board of Admiralty to take the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown on questions affecting the procedure of courts-martial, unless in special cases they should consider that course desirable. Before the Order in Council mentioned was passed, the Judge-Advocate of the Fleet, who advises the Board of Admiralty on such questions, laid the matter very fully before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and the change in the Regulations, as a war measure, received their unanimous concurrence. At the court-martial on Rear-Admiral Troubridge the public were excluded at different times while evidence of a confidential nature was being taken. This was done in the public interest, by order of the Admiralty and with the prior concurrence of the Rear-Admiral and his legal adviser.

The right hon. Gentleman has not told me on what authority the Admiralty was acting prior to the Order in Council of 23rd May, 1916, seeing that the Naval Discipline Act clearly lays down that any alteration of procedure of courts-martial must be by Order in Council.

I intended to convey that we had no statutory authority. We had not then got King's Regulation 674. That is a fact. We acted in the public interest. If my hon. and gallant Friend says the Navy Discipline Act prevented our hearing a court-martial in whole or part I must look into that matter with the Judge Advocate.

I beg to give notice that I will repeat the question on Wednesday. If the Admiralty was acting illegally I may have to move the Adjournment of the House.

Military Service

Honourable Artillery Company

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that Donald H. Nettleton, midshipman, Royal Navy, was invalided out of the service, but on enlisting in the Army was passed Al, and is now on his way to France as a driver in an Honourable Artillery Company battery, with the result that his five or six' years' training as a naval officer is thereby completely wasted; and on what grounds the Admiralty decline to reinstate ex-Midshipman Nettleton after being informed that he has been pronounced fit by an eminent London surgeon?

The circumstances have been brought to my notice by my hon. Friend. Mr. Nettleton was medically resurveyed at the Admiralty as recently as the 3rd November, when it was found that he was unfit for the Naval Service?

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any reason why this man has now been passed Al for general service in the Army?

My hon. Friend will know that the standards are not the same in every particular. For instance, it does not arise in this case. A man might be physically fit and yet colour blind. That would be a disability from the naval point of view.

Questions

Elementary Education (Supplemental Grant)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the supplementary Grant for elementary education was intended to encourage local authorities to undertake additional expenditure upon elementary education; whether under the Regulations relating to that Grant any additional expenditure incurred by local education authorities and not met out of the Grant payable in 1917–18 will have to be borne wholly by the local rates for about two years before any additional Grant in respect thereof is received from the Board of Education; if so, whether he will amend the Regulations in order that local education authorities may receive the Grant as far as possible within the financial year in which the additional expenditure is incurred; whether the Statutory minimum Grant of 50 per cent. of approved expenditure oh education foreshadowed by him in a speech at Bradford on the 2nd November will be paid by instalments and as far as possible within the financial year in which the expenditure is incurred; if not, will he say how it will be paid; and whether this Grant will cover all approved expenditure on both elementary and higher education and be free from conditions other than those relating to educational efficiency?

The answers to the first and second parts of the question are in the affirmative. I am considering whether it is possible to arrange for the Grant to be paid concurrently, or more nearly concurrently with the expenditure of the local education authorities. As regards the remainder of the question, I am not at present prepared to commit myself to the precise form of the Clause in the Bill which will be necessary, and must ask the hon. Member to wait till it is put down.

asked what additions to old taxes still remaining in force have been imposed since the War; on what dates they became operative; and what is the

Selection (Standing) Committees

reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee A: Mr. FitzPatrick, and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Scanlan.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Orders of the Day

National Health Insurance [Money]

Resolution reported,

"That it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys to be provided by Parliament of such additional sums as may be required for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the Acts relating to National Health Insurance."

Resolution agreed to.

Coal Mines Control Agreement (Confirmation) Bill

Considered in Committee.—[Progress, 27 th November .]

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

NEW CLAUSE.—(Fulfilment of Financial Obligations by Coal Controller.)

It shall be the duty of the Coal Controller to provide from any funds receivable by him by virtue of his control of mines for the fulfilment of any financial obligations imposed upon him by the said agreement without recourse to moneys to be provided by Parliament.—[ Mr. Herbert Samuel .]

Brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move. "That the Clause be read a second time."

This New Clause brings before the attention of the Committee a point of considerable constitutional importance. The Bill imposes upon the Coal Controller the duty of making good certain profits of coal-owners. Those profits are to be paid, it is anticipated, out of the funds that are in the hands of the Coal Controller, and this Clause provides that it is his duty to pay those sums out of those funds and not to come to Parliament subsequently for money to make good any deficit. The reason we wish to press this upon the Committee is that we consider that the Government ought to take either one of two courses, either to say "this is a scheme which will be self-contained and will not involve any charge upon public funds," in which case they can accept this Clause, or else to say, "this is a scheme which may involve a charge upon public funds," and in that case they ought to put down the ordinary financial Clause in this Bill and move the corresponding Financial Resolution. When the Bill was last before the Committee I gave my reasons for holding that view, and I shall not repeat my speech to-day, but I venture to remind the Committee of the speech of the Solicitor-General because it supports so admirably our contention. The Solicitor-General told the Committee on the 27th November:

This is the last, or, at any rate, it is the latest attempt to complete the ingenious effort to impale the Government in this matter upon one or other horn of a dilemna invented, I think, by the right hon. Member for Cleveland Division, and developed by the right hon. Member for Dewsbury. Indeed, a few nights ago the right hon. Member for Dewsbury on this matter addressed to the members of the Committee, and, still more, the members of the Government, an admonition for which we are, I hope, suitably grateful. Apart from the mere contest of words, what is the substance of this matter? Originally, the view was put-forward strongly, and, as I think sincerely from that Bench, that this was a Bill for which there ought to be a Financial Resolution, for the reason that the Bill clearly contemplated the provision of public moneys in order to help the Coal Controller to make up his guarantee under Clause 4 of the agreement. That view was strongly pressed upon the Government, and our answer was that by the provisions of the Bill, by the Clause of the agreement, and, according to the intentions of those who are concerned, it is contemplated clearly that this agreement shall be, if one may use the phrase, self-contained and self-sufficient—[AN HON. MEMBER: "Self-supporting!"]—and self-supporting. It is contemplated, in other words, that the payments which are to be made under Clause 3, under the name of Coal Mines Excess Payments, will suffice to provide the money which the Coal Controller may have to disburse under the provisions of Clause 4.

Certainly not. The four matters on which that view is based are, first, that the Coal Controller, under the provisions of the agreement is to receive 15 per cent, of the profits which remain after the 80 per cent. of excess profits have been subtracted. Second, he is to have control of the price. Third, as regards the non-paying mines, in fact, the only circumstances in which he can be called upon to pay considerable sums under the head of guarantee will be circumstances in which the coal mines, many of them, have failed to come up to their profit standard. But in these circumstances the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, under the provisions of the Finance Act, 1916. will repay, in respect of these coal mines, what will then prove to have been paid in excess. For these three reasons it is expected, it is intended, it is contemplated, that the agreement will be self-supporting. There is a fourth consideration. Under the provisions of this Bill the Coal Controller has it in his power to determine the agreement, and if it appeared that the agreement was likely to disappoint the expectations of all those who are responsible for it, that is a power which might be extremely useful. It is for these reasons, it is because, after a full and and fair view of all the facts, it appeared that a deficit was not likely to occur, that the Government came to the conclusion that a Finance Resolution was for this Bill superfluous. We have never excluded, in fact we cannot exclude, the remote contingency to which my right hon. Friend a moment ago alluded. He did me the honour to read some passages from the speech which I made a few nights ago on this matter. There is nothing more painful than making a speech except hearing a portion of it read, but I must call attention to the circumstance that the right hon. Gentleman accidentally omitted an important passage in my speech. I said that a deficit was not contemplated, but the contrary, and I added:

"If that emergency should arise—and nobody who is concerned in this Bill believes that it will arise; on the contrary, everybody who is concerned with this Bill believes that the Controller, having the control of prices, will be able to avoid that emergency—no doubt it would be a blemish on the Bill that it had failed to provide for the deficit, and it would be necessary to come to this House to provide the funds."

That is to say, in the clearest possible way, that in that remote and unexpected contingency, a contingency which we hope will not be realised, we should come to this House for the provision of funds. Now, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland knows perfectly well, none better than he, that if this Clause were accepted in the terms in which it is proposed, it does not prevent the Government hereafter from coming to the House for the purpose. My right hon. Friend knows perfectly well, none better than he, that without coming to the House for funds, it is not open to the Government to employ public money in that way. What, then, is the purpose of this Clause? It is a purely academic attempt, as I said at the commencement of my observations, to impale the Government on one or other horn of the dilemma which was so ingeniously constructed at the outset of this matter. I venture to say that our belief remains as it was, and we do not think this contingency will occur. It would be idle, therefore, to insert in the Bill words which are, in the first place, superfluous, and which, in the second place, only go to suggest a contingency that we think will not arise.

The hon. and learned Gentleman has not really met the argument which was put forward in the Committee stage last week. He has merely repeated the speech, practically, which he then raised, that because in the conception of the Government the scheme is to be self-supporting, therefore it is not necessary to put in any financial Clause. I accept all his words on behalf of the Government that it is contemplated that the scheme will be self-supporting, but, for my part, I am confident that the Controller will not make it self-supporting, because he is not really master of the situation. He is no more master of the situation than any other controller of any other commodity with which the Government have to deal. The other Controllers, when asked to deal with any of these commodities, had to make such arrangements as would cover the cost of providing these commodities, and the cost of the working expenses of the scheme. But circumstances arise which make the Government desire that the price shall not be so high as will make the scheme self-supporting, and last week I gave the instance of the Wheat Commission, The Wheat Commission, just as the Coal Controller is to be, was carried out on the principle of being self-supporting. It was self-supporting up to a certain point. The wheat purchases were made, the working expenses were taken into account, and the balance sheet showed a profit on the right side of about £1,000,000. But in political exigencies, or economic exigencies, the nation demanded the cheap loaf, and the Government, or the War Cabinet, informed the Wheat Commission that the price of the loaf must be 9d. So that instead of a profit of £1,000,000 or more, the Wheat Commission showed a deficit of £37,000,000 to £40,000,000. That is the history of one of these controls. It is a single instance that could be paralleled, I think, from others of these bodies, and I do not think the hon. and learned Gentleman is justified in asking the House to regard this scheme as one which is really going to be self-supporting.

The hon. and learned Gentleman said to-day that the passing of this Clause would make no difference, because, if it became necessary, the Government could come to the House, whether this Clause was put in the Bill or not, and that therefore it is really unimportant from any point of view that this Clause should be inserted. I disagree with him. The reason why this Clause would be of value is that it would be a direction to the Government, and a direction to the Coal Controller; it would be a direct intimation to the Government that they would not be justified in going below what the Controller could pay his way on. The Government would not be entitled, that is to say, without coming to this House, to throw the burden upon the general taxpayer, for the sake of lowering the price of coal. It is for that reason that there should be a direction to the Govern- ment and to the Controller, that they are not to play with the price of coal in that way, and it is in that view that this Clause is very important, and should be put in the Bill. I submit that, from the point of view of the public and from the point of view of control by the House of Commons, the Clause is exceedingly important, and the Government should say in the Bill exactly what is intended, that this Coal Control Scheme in principle is self-supporting. It is for that reason I think it important to put the Clause in the Bill. I beg the Government to insert it, and not persist in an obstinate resistance to what I think has been demonstrated to be a necessary part of the Bill.

The Solicitor-General, in his reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland, represented this Amendment as an attempt to impale the Government on one or other horn of the dilemma. I think if my hon. Friend had been more closely associated than he is with the controversy that has gone on between the President of the Board of Trade and the coal-owners, he would have learned that this was really no academic matter, but an extremely practical one from the point of view of the coal-owner. If my hon. Friend had been familiar, for example, with what happened between the Committee of Coal-owners and the President of the Board of Trade on Wednesday, the 7th November, he would have seen that on this matter there was a difference in the statement made by the President of the Board of Trade from that which has been made in this House. What happened? My hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Sir C. Cory) said: Then the hon. and gallant Gentleman said:

We want a concrete estimate from the Coal Controller's Department or from the Board of Trade as to what the excess coal payments are going to amount to and what losses do they anticipate. It is only in view of such a definite estimate that the Committee is going to be in a position to say whether there will be a deficit or not. Having those estimates, the Committee is also entitled to express its opinion as to which way the deficit is going to be made up. This is not a remote contingency. You may ask any man you like who is concerned with the coal trade and who understands the present conditions of the coal trade and who is in a position to make any reliable forecast as to its working in the immediate future, and everyone of those men, no matter what view he may take of this agreement, will tell you that there is going to be a deficit. If that is the universal opinion clearly it is the duty of the Government to make up its mind that this is not the remote contingency which the Solicitor-General would have the House believe it to be. I do not believe for a moment that the President of the Board of Trade or the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, who has not yet given us his views on this question, would either one or the other say that it is a remote contingency. If it is not, we have a right to ask what are the Government going to do? Is it to be made good from the general taxpayer? If so, it would have been far better to have been honest and straightforward and have brought forward a Financial Resolution which definitely committed the Treasury. If they are going to do the other thing and going to try and put up the price of coal you may depend on it they will never be able to carry that out. You will have an outcry in the East End of London and in every industrial district of this country about the profiteering of the Government and the profiteering of the coal-owner. What will be the result? This great and powerful Government will do then what it has done in the case of every other public outcry. It will immediately bend to the clamour and reduce the price just as it did in the case of bread and potatoes, and probably there will be a far greater burden thrown on the Treasury than would have been the case if they had faced the problem fearlessly, honestly, and straightforwardly, and set out the liability and honestly put it on the general taxpayer.

I regret that on this occasion I am in disagreement from my right hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel). I do not know whether he realises that if he succeeds in inducing the Government to accept this Clause he commits them irretrievably to a gross breach of faith towards the coal-owners with whom they negotiated the Coal Mines Control Agreement. It was only on the strength of the repeated and definite assurance that the guarantee of the Government stood behind the provision for compensation in the agreement if the 15 per cent. additional of excess profits levied on the coal-owners was insufficient that the coal-owners gave their reluctant assent to the agreement. Many of the acquiescing coal-owners have communicated with me within the last few days to the effect that the Government having broken their part of the bargain, that is if they abandon this Government guarantee, that they, the coal-owners, ought not to be held bound by the onerous conditions and burdens imposed upon them in the agreement. Not only did the President of the Board of Trade state to the deputation on the 7th November what my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Pringle) has already quoted, but he said that he would certainly repeat that statement in the House when the House went into Committee. Now knowing what a high example we have in my right hon. Friend of an honourable and straightforward statesman I invite him now and here to repeat that statement to the Committee. There is one serious effect of the Amendment if it is accepted to which perhaps the proposer has not attached sufficient weight. It would debar the Government from inserting in this Bill provision for compensation for coal miners owing to loss through Government interference, which may result in a reduction in the working days of particular collieries. Surely no Member can oppose a provision of that kind to which the coal miners are justly entitled, and any chance of obtaining which they would be absolutely deprived of by the acceptance of this Amendment.

The Solicitor-General informed us that if the 15 per cent. tax on excess profits is insufficient to meet the demands on the compensation fund that then he could raise the wind by raising the price of coal to the general consumer all over the country, including householders. I believe that the coal-owners, and I believe I can speak in the name of every coal-owner, will resent the provision of compensation in any such manner, and will insist that the Government adhere and give effect to their repeated assurance that there should be a Government guarantee at the back of the Bill, and that that guarantee should not only provide fair and equitable compensation to coal-owners for losses sustained through Government interference, but that it should also provide fair and equitable compensation for the coal miners who suffer through interference on the part of the Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us the other day that if it could be shown that a Financial Resolution was necessary in connection with this Bill that there would not be the slightest hesitation on the part of the Government to introduce it. In view of that statement and of everything that has been said in this Debate, I beg that that mode of meeting the difficulty will be seriously considered by His Majesty's Government. The President of the Board of Trade on another occasion said that if there was a deficiency it would be necessary for them to come to Parliament and ask that the deficit should be made good by a Vote of Credit or in some other way to be agreed upon. The Parliamentary Secretary of the Board of Trade told us if there is a deficit, then have it ratified in the agreement that the House of Commons would be responsible to the Coal Controller for the money. Let us have this difficult point cleared up. It is not a question of realising any pecuniary benefit for the coal-owners. We are quite prepared to shoulder whatever burden the necessities of the War impose upon the nation, but one condition that we demand is that that burden shall be equally imposed on every other one of the taxpayers of the country. Personally I would say take all excess profits, every penny of them, into the pockets of the Treasury, but, in the name of justice and fair and equal treatment, take them equally from every taxpayer in the country who obtains them in great or small degrees. I shall oppose this Amendment.

I think that the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken has caused considerable consternation amongst those Members of the House who have the misfortune to be neither coal-owners nor Members of the Government. I pass by the statement in which he said that the coal-owners would be only too glad to assume the burdens of the nation. I think that was a slip on the part of the hon. Gentleman.

I thought there was some modification, and I am glad I elicited it. May I be allowed to consider the difficult position in which the speech of the hon. Gentleman has put the ordinary Member of this House? I listened with very great attention to the speech of the Solicitor-General, which seemed to me to be extremely clear. He repeated what he had already said, that the Government thought it was very unlikely or extremely improbable that there would be any demand on the taxpayer for any funds to make up a deficit under this Bill, but that something unforeseen might occur, and under those circumstances it would not be wise to accept this Amendment, because it would be necessary to come to the House and get the assent of the House for the money which in some unforeseen circumstances might possibly be necessary. Now comes the hon. Gentleman and says, "Oh, this was the understanding all through the agreement that there would be a deficit, and that that deficit would be borne by the Government—"

If there were a deficit it would be borne by the Government. If the 15 per cent. additional tax on the excess profits were insufficient to provide the full amount of compensation, the Government stood behind and would provide the balance.

Very well, and 1 understand that the coal-owners attach so much importance to this that it was only on getting a definite statement from the Government that if this 15 per cent. was not sufficient the deficit should be made up out of the funds of the taxpayer that they accepted this agreement. Is not that clearly evidence that the coal-owners, who ought to know, think that there will be a deficit? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]

Yes; but may I put this question to my hon. Friend: If he were told that he was going to have a fixed price for his beer, and if he said "that fixed price for the beer will not cause me to make any loss, but, if there is, the Government will make it up," and if the House said there is no necessity for a guarantee because—as my hon. Friend says—there probably will not be a loss, then does he say that if he insisted upon a guarantee being put in it would not be fair to assume that he really expected there would be a loss?

Certainly not. Quite the contrary. At the same time, something might happen later to cause a loss.

I am afraid I do not agree. I think the position is that the taxpayer certainly should be safeguarded: the matter should not be left in this very unsatisfactory position. Supposing that it is not so, and there is no loss. My chief complaint, not against the hon. Gentleman opposite, but against the Government, is that if there was this agreement that the hon. Gentleman says there was—

Is it quite fair to the House of Commons to say that this Bill is all that is required? If the Government want money in this matter—mind, I do not say that it is right mat they should do so—but if they do, lei them come down with a Financial Resolution, or, alternatively, if they do not think any money will be required, and that a Financial Resolution is not necessary, and consequently we shall not have a Financial Resolution, because money will only be required in unforeseen circumstances—

Very well; in that case it is not treating the House of Commons fairly. It may be quite right to give a guarantee. I am not arguing that for the moment. But I do say if there is a guarantee such as the hon. Gentleman suggests, and if the Government really, unintentionally, of course—for misunderstandings do occur—gave a pledge to this effect, then I say it ought to be by means of a Financial Resolution and the Bill so amended, or the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman accepted. We ought to know. I think the Committee ought to know from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade what is the actual position. The Solicitor-General said that only in unforeseen circumstances would it be likely that money would be required to be provided by Parliament, and that therefore he cannot accept the new Clause which is being moved. He says if it should be necessary to obtain this money that everyone knows that the House of Commons would have to be consulted. Is that so in these days? Would it not be possible to put the sum in a Vote of Credit without being in a Bill at all? I am not at all sure on that point. One must not forget that the payment of Members was carried through without any Bill; there was merely an estimate, but there was no Bill.

A Vote, but not a Bill, and in those days there were no Votes of Credit. Votes of Credit have taken the place of Estimates. My contention is—I hope I am not right—it would be proper to have put this required sum into the Vote of Credit, in which case no Bill would be necessary, and it would be very difficult to alter the Vote of Credit. Under these circumstances, I am afraid I do not follow the arguments of the Solicitor-General that he should not accept this new Clause. Let me sum up very shortly the position as it seems to me. The right hon. and learned Gentleman says that it is not necessary to put this proposed new Clause in because he will have to come to the House of Commons. I say it is necessary to put this Clause in because, unless it is put in, he may have to do that which he says: he will have to come to the House of Commons. I think he wishes that if it is necessary that he should come with a Bill in the proper form to the House of Commons. If he does put it in, the only result will be that he will do exactly what he is going to do—that is, come to the House of Commons. Therefore, what is the objection to putting it in? The advantage of putting it in is a direction to the Coal Controller, the House of Commons, and the country that money is not to be found out of the pockets of the taxpayer for this purpose. If it is not put in, especially after what has taken place now, will it not be open to the Government afterwards to say that there was considerable discussion during the passage of the Bill, and that it was then more or less understood, certainly by the hon. Member who has just sat down, that there was no necessity to come to the House?

If it was found to be necessary we must not object to money being granted out of the pockets of the taxpayers.

Exactly. Is it part of the bargain? That is what I want to know. The Government have made a bargain! Is it part of the bargain that under certain circumstances the national credit might be employed?

I trust the Government and the Solicitor-General will stick to their guns and refuse to accept the proposed new Clause. If they do not, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, I certainly think it would be a gross breach of faith. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London says that because a guarantee is being given that, therefore, the coal-owner must make a loss. I do not think that follows at all. As has been pointed out, a man may insure his house because he does not want to run the risk of losing the money value of the house should it be blown up; but he does not do it in the expectation that the house will be blown up! That is a very different thing. The argument is applied by saying that necessarily there is going to be a loss because there is a guarantee. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Rushcliffe says that the Controller ought to make his Bill self-contained by insisting upon putting up prices if he finds that he is not getting enough.

The right hon. Gentleman adds that now, but he ought to have said that earlier. Take the question of prices first. As I endeavoured to point out to the House the other day in regard to the coal for the Allies, there was an agreed price for coal shipped. In regard to the Admiralty, they have insisted all along having their coals at prices far below what everybody else has had to pay. There might be a difficulty between the Coal Controller and the Admiralty in that respect. I have no doubt it will be pointed out, or you will find, that the ordinary consumer will object to having his prices raised. Supposing the Coal Controller succeeded in raising prices, in all these quarters you will have to reckon with the fact that in many cases the collieries are stopped, and you are getting no coal, and therefore there is no price to raise. That, therefore, seems to me to be rather a defect in making the scheme self-supporting. I myself share the view that, there will be a deficit. I do not say that when the scheme was first negotiated it was thought that there would be a deficit; but things have materially altered. Collieries are stopped in all the districts from where you are shipping coal especially South Wales, where collieries are working three days a week, and there must be considerable deficit, and considerable loss. I should think there would be a, deficit, and the fairest way would be to come to Parliament for a Financial Resolution. I quite agree that that is the straightforward and proper course.

I will tell the House why I think it is only fair that you should have a guarantee. This is what the coal-owners are going to put in in return for what they have been promised by way of guarantee—those coal-owners who have accepted the agreement:

(1) All right to compensation for the taking over of his property. (2) Three-fourths of the balance of excess profits to which the owner of any other business is entitled under the Finance Acts to retain. (3) The benefit of the percentage standard under these Acts. (4) A possible obligation to contribute to a levy for maintaining and reopening other collieries closed by the Controller, which levy he is not entitled to charge as a working expense. (5) If his colliery is closed by the Controller he may have to bear the expenses of maintaining, reopening, rents, royalties, wayleaves, and management, without any right to reimbursement out of a levy.

(6) He is subject to the direction of the Controller, and to the dividends he pays or the loans he repays. Here are six very material things which he is going to promise for the guarantee should there be a deficit. Therefore, if in the matter of the guarantee there is not to be the grossest breach of faith, you cannot possibly accept the Amendment. Undoubtedly the coal-owners who have accepted the agreement have accepted all these conditions. We have had the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Lanark pointing out the guarantee given by the President of the Board of Trade to the deputation which met him on the 7th ultimo; also that a few weeks previously to that the Controller himself told me that it was undoubtedly a guarantee, whether it was in the Bill or not. It was the intention of the Board of Trade always that there should be a guarantee, and he certainly contemplated and understood that there was to be a guarantee. Under these circumstances I certainly think that there can be no question but that there ought to be a guarantee, and I trust it will be faced in a right and proper way by a Financial Resolution.

The hon. and learned Gentleman who sits behind me spoke in reference to this Clause. He went to the root of the matter when he showed the contradiction in terms and the extraordinary position into which the Government have brought themselves by some of their own speeches. They have only themselves to thank for the action of the right hon. Gentlemen the Members for Cleveland and Dewsbury. I must confess, firstly, that I cannot support this Clause because we have to consider the Bill as it is, and the agreement as it is, and not the speeches made by the Government. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London when he spoke of the House being misled, and particularly by the speeches of the Solicitor-General, who said, I think, that it would be a thousand to one chance that there would be a deficit. Therefore the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland was perfectly justified in bringing forward this Amendment. However, we of the House of Commons have surely to consider the Bill on its merits, and certainly, as has been pointed out by the hon. Baronet below me, there was undoubtedly the belief in a guarantee should there be a contingent liability. Should that fructify and there be a deficit, it was understood that certainly this House and the Government would be bound to make good that deficit. In fact, the President of the Board of Trade very specifically said should there be a deficit he would come to Parliament and ask to meet such deficit by means of a Vote of Credit. What I would suggest to the Government is this: It is evident that a considerable section will support this Amendment—

Well, some section will support the Amendment because of the speeches of the Government, for they definitely stated there would be no deficit. They practically said it was a thousand to one chance against it. I would, therefore, suggest that my right hon. Friends, perhaps, would withdraw this Amendment if the Government now would give us an undertaking that a Financial Resolution will be brought in. That would put the whole thing in order, and I think satisfy all sections.

I think the Government should proceed, in the regular way, by a Financial Resolution; and no doubt the new Clause will be withdrawn if they agree to do so. There is no getting away from the fact that there is risk. There is no use in trying to suggest that the risk does not exist. Why, then, should the Government not face it, instead of trying to make speeches to suit each argument as it is brought forward? Why should they not, in a sincere and honest way, face this contingent liability? I have a proposal to make. I do it entirely without authority, but I assume that the right hon. Gentleman who moved this new Clause would be prepared—his speech, at any rate, seemed to imply that—to withdraw it under these conditions. If this were a watertight Bill, and there was no possibility of a deficit, the Government could have no difficulty in accepting this Clause; on the other hand, if there is a possibility of a deficit, then there is a general consensus of opinion that we ought to have a Financial Resolution. The Solicitor-General, in his somewhat adroit speech, admitted there was a possibility of this contingency. We come, then, to the natural conclusion that it is a liability for which we ought to have a Financial Resolution.

I hope the House will rise to the idea of what a very large question it is up against at the present moment. It is not a question of this trade, that trade, or the other trade, but it is a question of all the trades of the country and how they are going to be managed not only now, but in the future. A great many businesses and departments have been taken over by the Government since the beginning of the War, and I think I may say to the House definitely that the only one business which has been taken over by the Government and has proved a success, not only to the Government but to the nation and to individuals, has been the management of the railways. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]

Please do not open that general question, or we shall go a very long way.

I certainly will not; but may I observe that in taking any trade over-I do not mind what trade it is—the Government should take it over with a clear understanding that the only possible way to manage it properly is to have it managed by persons who are connected with the trade. Where would we have been to-day if, instead of managing the railways through a committee of railway managers—

That is a question of administrative methods; it is provided here that the existing managers are to continue to manage the coal mines, and the point really does not arise here.

If I am to understand, that, in any proposal the Government may make in the future to take over a trade, it is admitted that it shall be managed by those who have conducted it in the past, I will give way at once. But I am afraid that that has not been the habit of the Government. I would like to suggest to the House that nobody can manage a trade but the people who are accustomed to it. The Government have taken over a number of trades, and now they are proposing to deal further with the coal trade in the Bill now under consideration. All I want to say is this, we generally find that when a trade is taken over by the Government there is a loss. Sooner or later there must be a loss, simply because you do not employ proper managers; you employ instead people who know nothing about it, and. if you do that, the Government must be prepared to face the fact that they will incur losses. But how are those losses going to be met? They must be met either by raising the price of the commodity, or by getting the money from the taxpayer. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), whom we all admire in this House, and from whom, as a financier, we are glad to hear, has told us that if Government money is to be provided to meet this loss authority must be given by this House to the Treasury to pay it. Everyone knows you cannot get a halfpenny of public money anywhere or in any way without first going to the House of Commons for it. If instead of that you propose to get it out of the trade you can only do that by raising prices, and I want to ask anybody here, any plain commonsense man who knows anything about receipts and expenditure, how are you going to get the taxpayer to pay more for his coal? Does it not really amount to putting a tax upon him? You are taking his money by making him pay an extra price for his coal. You are going to allow certain individuals who want more money in the coal trade to get that money by putting a tax on the article which that trade produces. Ought you to give that power to anybody except the House of Commons?

The one principle for which we are all here, for which our ancestors fought, and which the House of Commons has always stood up for, is that you must not take the subject's money either under the guise of benevolence, as was done in the time of Charles I., or in the form of extra prices for coal or other commodities—you must never take the subject's money under any subterfuge, but you must take it honestly and justly by means of a Vote of the House of Commons. If hon. Members will get that clearly into their minds, I think they will realise the importance of what we are doing to-day. I am thankful to say that the House is rising to the idea that when you are dealing with public money your duty is not so much to spend as to take care of it. It is a principle which the House of Commons ought to uphold, that the taxpayer's money under no guise whatever should be obtained except with the authority of Parliament. Let us not forget that these men who are acting as tax-gatherers are carrying out the orders of the House of Commons. I trust the Members of this House this afternoon will make it plain to the country that not a penny of the taxpayer's money is to be taken, under any guise, without the consent of this House. Let hon. Members stand up for that, and put an end to all these nonsensical guarantees and arrangements in regard to what may or may not happen. I dare say every hon. Member of this House has at some time in his lifetime put his name on the back of a bill at the request of a friend. [HON. MEMBEES: "No, no!" and Laughter.] I am very pleased to hear that laughter and those denials. I thought it was the experience of every one of us. A friend of mine once said, "Never put your name to a friend's bill unless you have money in the bank to meet it."

These general observations really do not appertain to the Amendment now before the House.

I only rise again to offer an apology for having transgressed 1 hope this House is not going to make the mistake of undertaking to pay for something which it does not thoroughly understand.

I rise to oppose this new Clause, and at the same time I wish to commiserate, if I may do so. with the President of the Board of Trade. I believe the right hon. Gentleman is thoroughly honest and straightforward in his methods of dealing with the coal-owner. He negotiated with us for several months and at the end we came to an agreement. That agreement was that we were to give certain things and to get certain guarantees. In the Schedule of this Bill there is a resolution which I drafted, and which I seconded at the meeting, and I therefore have a certain amount of responsibility. I took the step I did on the understanding that we had the guarantee of the Government behind the Coal Controller, and I feel certain that the President of the Board of Trade also thoroughly understood that. Certain extracts from the Debate on this subject have already been read out this afternoon by the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Pringle), and from these it is perfectly clear that the President of the Board of Trade has no idea of going back upon his bargain. He told us he did not see how the point could be made more certain in the Bill than it was, and that he had been advised by his legal advisers that the guarantee of the Government behind the Coal Controller was already in the Bill, and it could not be made more tight in that respect. I am, therefore, certain that the President of the Board of Trade is perfectly honest and straightforward in this matter. But unfortunately he has behind him these very subtle legal advisers, and they have led him into a pitfall of trouble, the result of which has been the speeches we have heard in this House ad nauseam , and the new Clause of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel), which would knock out the guarantee altogether. We cannot agree to that. I am very glad to see that the Solicitor-General has returned to his seat. I would not take his name in vain behind his back, and, therefore, I would like to repeat to him now what I have just been saying, that I think the President of the Board of Trade is perfectly honest and straightforward in his dealings with the coal-owners, but unfortunately he has been led into pitfalls by his legal advisers, who have said very many things on this subject which are quite contrary to what the right hon. Gentleman suggested.

After all that has been said, there is only one conclusion to which I can come, and that is that the Government must stand behind the undertaking which the President of the Board of Trade so clearly gave to the trade. They must stand by the agreement that we made on the understanding that if we we gave up certain moneys we should have certain guarantees, and that the guarantee behind the Controller would be the Government. In these circumstances, it has been clearly shown that some portion of the House may wish to save the taxpayer from finding any money. What is the result of this new Clause? That the Government shall not guarantee to find any money and that the coal-owners will have to find it or the general public will have to find it by the enhanced price of coal. I would like to say this to the Government: It is a very serious thing if they are going to leave it to the Controller to find the money as best he can without the help of the Government—that is to say, if he has to find any deficit by the increased price of coal. It may seem all right that everyone who burns a bit of coal in his house should pay more and that thereby the incidence of taxation will be equal, but that does not go far enough. Coal is used in every kind of factory and manufacture in the country. If you raise the price of coal you are going to alter the conditions of wages and everything else in the country. If you are going to raise the price of coal by, say, 5s. to meet the deficit, you are going to raise the price of iron—the biggest trade in the country. What does that mean? Its ramifications are enormous, and if the men know that more money is being got for the steel when it is turned out they will want more wages. You will have endless trouble throughout the industries of this country if anything of this kind is done, and I strongly advise the Government, in these circumstances, to stick to their original proposition, and made by their accredited representative of the Board of Trade, and to stick up for the guarantee that if there is any deficit they will be behind the Controller. As was and has been perfectly obvious to the House from the start, the Government should bring in a Financial Resolution to cover their liability.

I have been waiting to hear whether the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Wardle) has anything to say on this matter because I remember on the night of the 8th November, when this measure was first brought in, he said plainly that so far as he was concerned it could not be said with an undertaking of such magnitude whether there might not be a loss of £100,000 or a loss of a million sterling. I suppose a million in these days is considered nothing at all. I venture to say that if, for instance, we are dealing with millions and we are are told by a responsible member of the Government that there may be a loss of anything up to a million—

I presume the hon. Gentleman will pardon me if I refer him to the OFFICIAL REFORT. There are plainly stated exactly the figures I have given, that with regard to an undertaking of this magnitude there might be £100,000 loss or there might be a million loss. I say that if, for instance, there is a difference of opinion between members of the Government it is by far the wisest thing for them to take their courage in both hands and come forward and say that they have unfortunately made a mistake in bringing in the Bill, but that although they are members of the Government they may make mistakes. I venture to say that the House is most sympathetic in these matters provided the Government will say what is their position, and even at the eleventh hour—although so far as I am concerned I have opposed this measure up to the present time—if the Government came forward and said that they should have brought in a Financial Resolution, but that they wanted the assistance of the House in enabling them to put this right in order that they might give the guarantee that was promised to the coal-owners by the Board of Trade, I am sure that practically every Member of the House—that is, every Member who is desirous of assisting the Government—would turn round and help them. Why do they not do it?

It is all well and good to come and say, "There will be no deficit." I listened very attentively when the Solicitor-General stated the other night that he did not think there was a thousand to one chance of there being a deficit because the Controller would have the control of the price of coal. I can quite understand that if that is to be the intention you can say at once that there will not be a deficit, but I do not think the Government ought to leave the matter in that way. I do not think it ought to be left for the Coal Controller, in order to help the Government, if I may say so, out of the difficult position in which they find themselves, to ask the consumers of coal to foot the bill for the mistakes made by the Government. On the contrary, I think they should come and ask for a Financial Resolution, and I venture to say that the House, if they do so, will most sympathetically consider it. I say at once that I cannot support the new Clause brought forward by the right hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel). I think there is only one way out of the difficulty, and that is the way which has been concisely and clearly put forward from every quarter of the House this afternoon. I am hoping that the President of the Board of Trade will, perhaps, answer, and will at the same time reply to the question that I put as to how it is that the figures of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade do not agree with the figures of the Solicitor-General. I venture to hope that the Government will have the courage of their convictions, and ask the House to grant this Financial Resolution.

Whatever may be the opinion of the Committee as to the precise merits of the Clause which is before it, this discussion has at least made it clear that the Committee is at one in its anxiety that the Government should reconsider its decision in reference to the introduction of a Financial Resolution. My hon. and gallant friend the Member for South Wolverhampton (General Hickman) I think misunderstood the motives which are behind this new Clause. I, personally, am in no way authorised or sufficiently informed to gauge the motives of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel), but I can at least speak as one of those who are prepared, in the absence of any declaration from the Government, to support the Resolution, and I say that the object we have in view in supporting the Clause is to make the terms of the Bill consistent with the present structure of the Bill and consistent with the speeches of the Solicitor-General in support of the Bill. At an earlier stage of our proceedings we were reminded that the agreement which is in the Schedule of the Bill was in itself unalterable, but the discussion to-day has at least made this clear, that the agreement, so far as the terms of the Schedule are concerned, has been altered, or must in practice be altered, by reason of a prior pledge given by the President of the Board of Trade. I am quite prepared to accept the statement of hon. Members who were members of that conference as to the character of the pledge the President of the Board of Trade gave, and, indeed, the President's own words leave no room for doubt on that point. He said:

Here again to-day we are met with this embarrassment: A pledge has been given outside this House to the leaders of a particular industry, and we as a Committee find ourselves in the position to-day of calling for a Financial Resolution in order that Parliamentary sanction may be given to the expenditure without any prior reference to the justifiableness of this expenditure or not. I do want to emphasise very clearly the point that if the financial prerogatives of this House are not to be a matter of naught Ministers must be much more careful as to the commitments they make to outside deputations. It has been emphasised again and again this afternoon—and this is the utmost admission we have received from the Government Bench—that if there be a financial liability at all in connection with this Bill it is at most but a contingent liability. No Government has the right to commit Parliament or the Treasury to even a contingent liability without Parliamentary sanction. The moment you admit the possibility of an expenditure at that moment you are committed to requiring Parliament's authority and sanction. We were told this afternoon by the Solicitor-General that if the Government found in the event that financial aid from the Treasury was needed they would come to the House for authority to spend that money. I am not at all sure that if the Government did so apply we should not find that the money had been previously paid and the credit of the Treasury invoked in that direction. After all, as the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has called to our attention this afternoon, it is not necessary for the Government in such an event to come to this House to ask for its authorisation. We have learned repeatedly in the course of this War that the Government use Votes of Credit to meet expenditure of precisely this kind. There are numerous instances in my memory of this having been done, and it is a matter of common experience to every Member of the House. I do most strongly wish to press that if there be even a contingent liability in respect of this Bill, and if the Government still feel, and the authorities of the House still rule that the agreement, especially in respect of Clause 4, cannot be amended, then it is the bounden duty of the Government to put themselves right with the House at once by introducing a Financial Resolution. If they do introduce a Financial Resolution, many of those who are their critics this afternoon will be prepared to support them, if they prove a case, out of their desire to conform in letter and in spirit to the rules and usages of this House.

I really think my hon. Friends who are supporting this Clause are a little unreasonable in the view which they put forward. First of all, I would point out that the liability placed on the Coal Controller under this agreement has been placed with the consent of the House. The House has passed the Second Reading of the Bill, and my hon. Friends have not given much assistance to any opposition that has been shown to the agreement. The effect of the agreement is that the Coal Controller is personally responsible to the coal-owners for the guarantee.

We have been told definitely not. The Law Officers of the Crown are entirely opposed to the view taken by my hon. Friend.

I do not know where my hon. Friends get the opinion of the Law Officers from. I think it is clear that the Coal Controller is personally responsible for carrying through this agreement. and, what is more, the Law Officers have accepted an Amendment giving him the power. In these circumstances, would any Government in the world not stand by the Coal Controller? I would point out to my hon. Friends further, that the effect of this agreement is that you have deprived the coal-owners of their rights. But for this agreement and this Bill, if their business were interfered with by the Coal Controller they could prosecute their claim before the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission and also petition to make good any damage done. Under those circumstances, I would ask, is it reasonably just to secure a Parliamentary point—because, really, there is nothing more than a Parliamentary point—to persist in this Clause? It is plain that the President of the Board of Trade pledged himself perfectly clearly on the Second Reading that this guarantee should be made good, and really, under those circumstances, I do think my hon. Friends might withdraw this Clause.

This Clause, of course, will not do. I do not think three Members of the Committee who have taken part in this discussion think that it will do. Every consideration of equity and fairness is against the acceptance of this Clause. So far the Government scores. There still remains the difficulty. The Government have put their own heads into this noose. It is no good talking about a ten to one chance, or a hundred to one chance, or even a thousand to one chance of there being no liability. The thousand to one chance sometimes comes off. You cannot conduct legislation on those lines. You have got to have it square-cut, clean, and clear. There may be a liability. Very well, if there is, how are you going to make it up? You cannot go to the coal-owners—that is a breach of the agreement. You cannot raise the price of coal. Then what are the Government going to do? Assuming a liability may arise, the Treasury must meet it in one of two ways. They must either have a Financial Resolution in the ordinary course, or they may say that it is not necessary here, but when a Vote of Credit comes up they will insert it in that. Of course, they would not, and could not, insert it clandestinely. They must clearly and squarely meet this liability either by Financial Resolution or in the way I have just mentioned.

I think nine out of ten hon. Gentlemen who have listened to this Debate will say it ought to have been done in the ordinary way by Financial Resolution. There would have been no trouble at all. We should not have had a Clause of this kind put forward, and we should have saved ourselves hours of argument. Why they did not do that I do not know. I am perfectly certain that the right hon. Gentleman, who is a business man, a fair and square, honest business gentleman, would never have wanted to jockey anybody in this matter. Somebody has made a stupid mistake. Are we going to put that stupid mistake right by introducing a Financial Resolution? There is only one reason why we should not have a Financial Resolution. If the President of the Board of Trade got up and said, "I quite agree with what you urge, but here time is of the essence." If that were so, I should say it was extremely irregular, but if you tell me time is the essence. I suppose I must swallow the irregularity and trust to it being put right in the other way. Therefore, will the President of the Board of Trade get up and say in a few words—the words he commands so well, because they appeal to us all, and when he has spoken I feel there is common-sense, and that he is try- ing to do his best—what is the reason why this matter should not be founded in the ordinary way upon a Financial Resolution? I will not say I shall agree with him, but we shall feel, at any rate, to that extent we are fairly met.

The argument that was so clearly put by my hon. Friend the Member for Pembrokeshire (Mr. Roch), by my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley (Sir J. Walton) and also by many who are criticising the Bill, was that there has been an understanding that the Government should come in to meet the losses. What is the reason we cannot accept that argument? The reason is that, up to the present in Debate, that is not the attitude taken by the Government.

It was said quite clearly that was so by the President of the Board of Trade on the Second Reading.

My hon. Friend will bear with me. Now is the time to say it. These loose speeches on Second Reading—I have made them myself—are mostly rhetoric. It is not until we come to Committee, and have the specific point raised that we can know exactly what the promoters mean on the one hand, and what the Government mean on the other. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Not promoters!"] Those who are behind the Bill, then, said, and it has been accepted by the President of the Board of Trade, that the agreement would never have been made if it had not been specifically said the Government would be prepared to meet the liabilities, and that is agreed by everybody in the Committee. Then why did not the Solicitor-General say so? Why is there not more candour on the part of the Government? We have the President of the Board c Trade meeting these men behind his own screen, perhaps, at the Board of Trade. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It is so. Half a dozen Members present here said they had an undertaking from him that the Government would stand behind the agreement.

Is it not quite fair and proper for any Minister to receive a deputation? Why should we cast any slur?

The spirit of my hon. Friend is wonderful. Will he allow me for a moment? He can put his arguments in his wordy way afterwards. It has been stated here by Gentlemen who are parties to the agreement that the assurance was constantly given them that the Government would stand behind the Bill. What we find this afternoon is that the President of the Board of Trade, made these promises, does not take charge of this, but puts up the Solicitor-General, who said that it is a self-contained agreement. I threw in the word "self-supporting," and he immediately accepted that, and the whole argument given to us was not the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Pembrokeshire.

I am reluctant to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but he says that was the whole argument. On the contrary, I read out what was said by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade on the Second Reading, namely, that if the necessity should arise the Government would come to the House.

Quite so. But, at the same time, it cannot be denied—I will make that admission—that if it were not the whole argument, it certainly was the main argument put forward. I want to get past this point, and to put one different argument, which I have not heard put forward yet. The merit of this Clause is that, if the Government adopt it or if the Committee force it on the Government, then the Bill may be self-supporting, whereas, if this Clause is not put in, a great cost will be imposed on the taxpayer. If my hon. Friend opposite will read the Clause he will see it is a very good Clause, as the expense would be kept down. [An HON. MEMBER: "To the consumer!"] It is said that it is a self-supporting agreement. We want to bind them to it. They can make it self-supporting if they like. How can the Controller make it self-supporting? By looking at the two sides of the account. He will see how the money is coming in-personally, I do not think he will get much excess profits when he begins to manage the coal mines—and, on the other side, he will put the cost of any experiments he makes. That is what no other Controller is doing.

I should like to correct the right hon. Gentleman in one particular. He has to look to the other side, where he has to take up guarantees to make up certain profits. That is not an experiment at all.

Why will these profits want to be made up? Because the Controller is going, in his high and mighty way, to take away their business. He is going to shut up this and that mine, turn out men, and create losses in the way other Controllers have done, and he will have £10,000 to pay here, and £50,000 to pay there, and the money will run short. If he has got the taxpayers behind him he will not care about any of these things. He will say, "What is £5,000,000 on coal?" With the taxpayer behind him there will be no economy, but if the Bill is made watertight and self-supporting, then the Controller will think of these things before he does them, and he will not make these rash experiments, but he will allow himself to be advised by men who understand the business and losses will be avoided. They cannot be avoided by putting up the prices. The hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. D. Mason) seems to get hold of one point and he runs it to death, but I ask him to be a little more sympathetic with my point of view, and if he is he will see that this Clause promotes economy. We want some explanation from the President of the Board of Trade, and I ask him to consider this Clause.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give to the House any estimates which may have been formed as to what is likely to be the probable receipts and expenditure under this proposal?

I have been asked by the hon. Member for Clapham (Mr. Faber) to give some explanation why we are proceeding with this measure in its present form rather than by a Financial Resolution. I think the answer is quite simple. It was simply because we were advised, on the best advice we could get at the time, that the basis upon which this agreement is made—in other words, the money that will be received as excess profits—would under normal circumstances at least be quite sufficient to meet the obligations we have to meet under this proposal. We were satisfied as far as we could be satisfied on that point that the revenues received under this agreement would be sufficient to meet our obligation. Therefore, this being quite a self-contained agreement, it would in itself be quite sufficient to meet all that was necessary. Nobody pretends to say, and certainly I should not, that under no possible circumstances whatever would there be any deficit to make good, any more than we could possibly say that there would not be a surplus to be dealt with. Surely it must be recognised in a business of this magnitude, where we are proceeding upon unknown grounds, that there must be a measure of uncertainty, but, so far as we could be advised under the circumstances, that uncertainty was so very remote that there appeared to be, in our opinion, no reason whatever for assuming that the Treasury would be called upon to make good anything. I have been criticised for saying that the Government are standing by the Coal Controller in making this bargain. I felt that that was the honest and proper thing to say, and I am rather grieved to find that it has been found necessary to suggest that I have been making a statement outside this House that I would not make inside. On this point I would like to refer to the statement I made on the Second Beading, which I think will be accepted as being quite consistent and fulfilling the whole of the pledge which I gave. I said: Financial Resolution; or, alternatively, if you proceed in this other way, we have to show and disclose what that deficit is. Whether you proceed by Financial Resolution or otherwise, the deficit must be disclosed. We have not the slightest intention of not making that perfectly clear.

When this Bill was drafted we went into this matter with all the care we possibly could; but, obviously, with a business of this magnitude, it is impossible to have all the information that I should desire to have, or which I should like to lay before the House. We cannot get it all, because it is impossible, but, so far as we could possibly estimate, in view of all the facts arising out of the experience of this control and notwithstanding all that has been said, I see no reason for anticipating that our forecast will not come true. Therefore, if that is true, there is no reason for assuming that it will be necessary for us to come to Parliament and ask hon. Members to make good a deficit arising out of this control. I am sorry that as a result of this decision, for which I take the full responsibility, we have taken up so much time. It is of great importance that the coal-owners should know exactly where they stand. This is a great undertaking involving hundreds of millions, and the coal-owners are entitled to know, certainly before this, what their position is under this agreement. I do not desire to put that claim too far, but I feel that we did our best in dealing with the matter as we did. We thought we were dealing with it on right lines in drafting this Bill. We do not think any Financial Resolution is necessary, and I hope the House will agree to accept our proposals.

The right hon. Gentleman has really misunderstood our criticism. We are not criticising him for any guarantee he has given to the coal-owners; we recognise that in all his dealings he has been perfectly straightforward, and that has always been in our minds. The point that comes out in this Debate is that the agreement in the Bill is not the whole agreement with the coal-owners. The agreement in the Bill does not contain the guarantee which the right hon. Gentleman has made in speeches to the coal-owners. The right hon. Gentleman suggested to them in his deputation that all this was in the Bill as far as it could be, but I think he is mistaken in that, because had it been so Mr. Speaker would not have allowed us to proceed with it without a Financial Resolution. The ruling of Mr. Speaker was given, and I think he said that he could discern no contingent liability of any kind in the Bill, and it was on that ground that he ruled that the objection raised on a point of Order was not a good objection. It has since been elicited in debate that if this is not in the Bill it ought to be. The President of the Board of Trade has given a guarantee which is really part of the undertaking, and the agreement in the Bill is not the whole undertaking.

We are asking that the agreement to which we are asked to give our consent shall be the real agreement made with the coal-owners. The Bill provides that the losses due to the operation of the agreement shall be made good out of the excess profits as far as they go, but if more loss than that is incurred, then it is to be made good out of the pockets of the taxpayer. That contingent liability, which exists as a distant possibility in the mind of the Solicitor-General, but as a very real one in the minds of the coal-owners, ought to be put in the Bill as part of the guarantee given to the coal-owners, and the Government can only put this right even now by putting that contingent liability into the Bill, which can only be done by a Financial Resolution of the House. The right hon. Gentleman has carried the whole House with him in what he has said, but he is somewhat new to this House, and he has not mastered our financial procedure, which is very involved, but which embodies great historic principles which ought not to be lightly put aside. I think we have real reason to complain of the action of the Government, and I do not think it is yet too late to meet the universal sense of the House-with regard to this matter

I think it will be generally agreed that the right hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension, and he cannot have looked closely at Clause 4 of the agreement. If he does that he will find it is perfectly clear that if there is any deficit whatever, if there is any loss sustained by these colliery-owners who are giving so much in exchange for the guarantee, that loss would be made good to the owner by the Controller. I do not think it can be suggested even by the right hon. Gentleman that the Controller will make good those losses out of his own pocket.

It was suggested by Mr. Speaker that there was no provision in the Bill that it should be made good out of the taxes.

I am quite aware of that, but while it is left that the Controller is individually liable as in Clause 4 to repay this money, you have other Clauses which say where he has to go and get the money.

It is quite clear in the whole eighteen or nineteen Clauses of this agreement it is to be taken out of the enormous sum of excess profits. It has to be paid to those collieries who are forced to close, and they will be entitled to get those sums. It is perfectly clear from what the Government have said that they do not anticipate there will be any money required from the Treasury at all. I think the Committee will decide that the Clause which is now proposed will be no good, that it ought not to be adopted, and that good faith ought to be kept with the colliery-owners who have voluntarily entered into this agreement as far back as last July. Some of their undertakings have actually been controlled for a year, all on the faith of the undertaking that any losses which have been sustained in this manner will be made good to them by the Controller. This was made perfectly clear both by the deputation of coal-owners and also in this House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. I have here the OFFICIAL REPORT, which shows that it was stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the Government would stand behind this guarantee. How can it possibly be suggested that a new Clause should now be put into the Bill to the effect that the State is to find no money under any circumstances? Of course, the Debate has elicited a clean statement from the President of the Board of Trade that the Government will carry out the agreement with the coal-owners, and in case there is a deficiency, which is not anticipated, that the Government will come to the House and get it. I was very sorry indeed to hear it stated, "because the coal-owners went in a deputation to the President of the Board of Trade, that it was a meeting behind the scenes, and was done behind the backs of the Committee and the public. We ought all to be very grateful when any Minister is willing to meet any deputation of traders, and it is a very unfortunate tiling that we should have had words of that kind used in connection with such a deputation. I certainly take this opportunity, so far as I am concerned, of repudiating any such language.

I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman, or perhaps the Leader of the House, who gave us an undertaking if there were a universal demand by this House for a Financial Resolution that he would be prepared to accede to it.

The right hon. Gentleman said that the Government would reconsider the position, and, if they found a Financial Resolution necessary, they would bring it before the House. They have reconsidered the position, and they do not find it necessary.

I submit that the universal expression of opinion, including even those who support this Clause—they only support it if they cannot get the other alternative—is that there ought to be a Financial Resolution. The President of the Board of Trade seemed inclined to meet us to some extent. He said that he did not attach much importance to the procedure, but it has been pointed out that it has a very great importance, because if this money goes into the Consolidated Fund it comes under the control of this House. It is much better if we have to face a deficiency that we should face it through the Consolidated Fund. If it came in a Vote of Credit no one might be aware of it, and it might get through without that control which would be exercised if it came in the regular way into the Consolidated Fund. I submit that there has been a universal demand in accordance with the view expressed by the Leader of the House, and that therefore there ought to be some concession made.

Might I ask the Solicitor-General whether he will do a certain thing, which may perhaps terminate the discussion? Will he give the Committee an undertaking, if it is found necessary hereafter to come to the House for financial aid. that he will bring in a Bill, and not do it through a Vote of Credit? If the Government will give that undertaking, personally, I shall be satisfied, but I want that undertaking, because if it is brought in a Vote of Credit no one will be able to pick it out and have a discussion upon it.

In answer to the specific question which the right hon. Gentleman has put to me, I am prepared to give that undertaking; in fact, the President of the Board of Trade has already described the way in which the step, if it becomes necessary, will be taken.

After that undertaking, I would appeal to my hon. Friends to withdraw the new Clause. It must be quite clear to everybody, after what has been said by the President of the Board of Trade, that it is quite impossible for the Government to accept this new Clause. It would be a clean and distinct breach of faith, which no one expects them to commit, and everyone knows that they will not commit. I am rather sorry for the President of the Board of Trade. By following the advice tendered to him with regard to the form of this Bill, he has been put in a somewhat unfortunate position. Anyone accustomed to the forms, and anyone realising the importance underlying the forms of this House, knows that it is a Bill which does imply a charge upon the public exchequer, and under which it is quite possible that a charge will occur. If the Coal Controller manages his business prudently and carefully, and without an unreasonable interference with the trade of the country, which is rather a temptation to Controllers, because it is very pleasant to make great changes from a central office, I do not myself anticipate that any charge will fall upon the public exchequer, but if he allows his office to run away with him, or if anything unforeseen occurs—some people who are very good judges say it will be so in any event—there will be a deficit in this 15 per cent., and, in that case, there will be a charge upon the Exchequer. Properly, that ought to have been placed in the Bill, and there ought to have been a Financial Resolution. I do not think it is necessary, after what has occurred, to press further the demand that this obligation should be definitely put into the Bill, but I do hope that it will be a warning to members of the Government and of future Governments that they must carry out properly the customs and rules of this House, and that if they do not, and those rules are broken, then doubt may be thrown upon their own good faith, and they may mislead the House and the public as to what they are actually going to do, and whether they intend to carry out their obligations or not. Under the circumstances, I would recommend my hon. Friends to allow this Clause to be withdrawn, because the Government have given us a moderate amount of satisfaction with regard to it, and it is quite clear that it is impossible for them to accept it.

In my absence, which was unavoidable, I understand the Government have given an undertaking that if at any time a charge is thrown upon the Exchequer they will introduce a Bill for the purpose of meeting this charge. In view of that undertaking, I ask leave to withdraw the new Clause.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Definition.)

Regulation 9G referred to in this Act shall, for the purposes of this Act, be Regulation 9G as set out in the Second Schedule to this Act without prejudice to the right of His Majesty by Order in Council to change Regulation 9G for any other purpose.—[ Mr. Brunner .]

Brought up, and read the first time.

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

At an earlier stage of this Bill I moved an Amendment, perhaps in bad form, in order to elucidate the position with regard to Regulation 9G. I proposed by my Amendment that Regulation 9G should be put into a Schedule to the Bill. I asked the learned Solicitor-General what would happen if Regulation 9G were changed. He was not very clear as to what would happen. I have moved this new Clause in order to make it quite certain that Regulation 9G, as we now know it, shall be the basis of the Bill. My Amendment has this further great advantage: You will have Regulation 9G as a Schedule to the Bill, and anybody will be able to turn to it and see what it is. If the Regulation is not in the Bill you will have to go to the King's printers and get a copy to find out what it is. Therefore, in order that this House may have some control and that the Regulation may not be changed without our knowledge, I propose to insert it as a second Schedule.

So far as the substance of this question is concerned, I do not think that there would be any difficulty in our accepting the Clause. I said previously in answer to a question that as the Bill stood Regulation 9G of the Defence of the Realm Regulations would mean that Regulation as it stood at the time of the passing of the Act. I quite appreciate that there are those who desire that fact should be made plain in the clearest way upon the face of the Bill. Therefore, so far as the substance of the matter is concerned, I think we can say "Yes," to this proposal, but for the sake of brevity I would suggest that the Clause should read in this way:

"Regulation 9G of the Defence of the Realm Regulations means that Regulation as in force at the date of the passing of this Act."

It is further suggested that it would be convenient to have the Regulation set out in a separate Schedule. I should have thought that the Defence of the Realm Regulations were perfectly accessible to everybody, and that it was quite unnecessary to encumber this Bill with a matter so notorious.

I am quite ready to accept the learned Solicitor-General's Amendment. He is a better draftsman than I am, and he has also more expert assistance at his back. But I do not quite agree with him that Regulation 9G should not be put in the Bill. We are all very much troubled by legislation by reference. The Regulation is very simple and there are not many words, and I do not see why it should not be put in the Bill.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

NEW CLAUSE ( Definition )—Regulation 9c of the Defence of the Realm Regulations means that Regulation as enforced at the date of the passing of this Act.

Brought up, read a first and second time, and added to the Bill.

The next new Clause ( Right to Compensation of Persons not Parties to the Agreement ), standing in the name of the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle), is out of order here, as the point was negatived on Clause 1.

On a point of Order. Do I understand that your ruling is based upon the fact that an Amendment moved by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Sir W. Beale) was negatived? As I understand that Amendment, it excepted from all the provisions of the agreement persons who were not parties to the agreement. I submit that on that Amendment the smaller point which I am now raising was not within the purview of the Committee, nor was it intended to be decided by the result of that discussion. My Amendment merely refers to one point, namely, whether persons who are not parties to the agreement are to be deprived of the rights of compensation which they have either at common law or otherwise and only to receive such compensation as is described in the agreement which is in the Schedule. I would submit that in these circumstances I am entitled to move the Amendment with a view to making clear the position regarding the provisions in the Schedule.

6.0 P.M.

I am obliged to the hon. Member for the assistance he has sought to render me. I am unable to agree with his point of view. I still think that the point has been covered by the previous decision of the Committee. The next Amendments, standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury ( Amendments to the Schedule ), are out of order, because they are an alteration of the agreement.

Schedule 2

Coal Mines Control Agreement

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this be the Schedule to the Bill."

In rising to oppose the Schedule, I again wish to disclaim any desire to secure any pecuniary advantage out of the opposition to this Bill. All I demand is fair and equal treatment. I would willingly agree that all excess profits should be paid into the Treasury, provided not only that all who are within the scope of the Excess Profits Duty should be treated alike, but that farmers, owners of woods and forests, professional men, and all others who at present escape scot-free should also be brought in. This policy would secure a substantial increase in the national revenue and make sounder and stronger our present national financial position. I am sure that if this duty were imposed upon all taxpayers equally, so far as the coal-owners are concerned, they would have no hesitation in shouldering even the fullest burden that was thus imposed upon them. Our financial outlook to-day urgently demands that this course should be pursued. The Bill that we have now before us is one the vital and operative parts of which are embodied in a certain agreement which was concluded between certain parties, and we are now asked, as a Committee of the House of Commons, to apply compulsorily this agreement to a large number of persons who never sanctioned it in any way whatever. At the same time, we are told that though we are going to so apply it to them, this Committee possesses no power to make the slightest alteration whatsoever in the agreement embodied in the Schedule. I hold that to allow this to pass unchallenged would form a precedent that would have far-reaching and most deplorable consequences. I trust that the Committee will refer back to the agreement, so that it may be reintroduced in a form enabling us to deal with it Clause by Clause and line by line, according to our accustomed practice.

So far as I am aware, there is no precedent for any agreement being introduced into a Government Bill in a form limiting the constitutional powers of this House, as has been done on this occasion. Private Bills, such as Railway Bills, have had agreements introduced into them as Schedules, but I believe that power usually has been reserved to alter the terms and conditions of those agreements. Further, such agreements were only applied to those who were parties to them, whereas on this occasion this agreement is to be made, solely by the powers of this House, to apply compulsorily to a vast number of people who are outside the agreement altogether. We have not proceeded in this matter without the most careful consideration. A very eminent counsel has told us with regard to the character of the agreement that it is such as demands from us the closest examination. He says: ultra vires . The Mining Association is merely a voluntary trade association, having no powers conferred either by Statute or charter, and possesses, therefore, no power or authority to enter into an agreement binding the whole trade to part with a very large part of its profits. This eminent counsel has also advised us that this agreement is binding on no one. Indeed, the Government have recognised that fact by the introduction of this Bill. Therefore, it is absolutely necessary that the Bill should be presented in such a form as retains to the House of Com-Commons the power to make whatever alterations in it they deem desirable. Another counsel tells us that he has seen the constitution of the Mining Association, and is of opinion that such constitution does not give the executive council power to delegate to a consultative committee authority to make any such agreement; or that such agreement should bind any colliery proprietor unless and until he has personally accepted and adopted it; and that each separate owner must consider whether he will bind himself by this agreement or will claim such compensation as the law allows him for the taking from him of his property. This counsel also says that owners alone are required to pay by the levying of this extra 15 per cent., so that 95 per cent. has to be paid by them as against 8 per cent. by every other trade and industry to whom the Excess Profits Duty applies. Then, according to the agreement, we are to lose the benefit of the percentage standard under the Finance Act. Why that is taken from us I have yet to learn. We also assume a possible liability to make a voluntary levy to compensate those whose collieries are closed as regards the cost of maintaining them, reopening them, and all the expenses that may be incurred on account of pumping, rents, rates, wayleaves, management expenses and other things. All I can say is that he would be a bold man who would expect that that provision or suggestion would ever be acted upon. What does it mean? Simply that if A.'s mine is closed as a result of the action of the Controller, he can only obtain compensation if B., C. and D., his rival colliery-owners in the district, make application to the Controller to levy the compensation to be paid out of their own pocket, and he is only to be paid the amount which they certify is due to him. I have no hesitation in saying that there are few coal-owners who imagine that any such levy will ever be made. It follows that if collieries have to be closed down owing to the losses sustained by reason of State interference and the action of the Coal Controller, they ought to be compensated by the Coal Controller and not left to the tender mercies of their fellow coal-owners.

I have enumerated, very briefly indeed, some of the increased burdens that are put upon coal-owners under this agreement. They are also subject to the direction of the Controller as to the dividends they pay and the loans they repay. A new Clause has been accepted which prevents the provisions with regard to loans applying to those outside who may have claims for loans made. There is a declaratory Clause which safeguards to them, to some extent, their rights in the matter. It applies to such as bankers who want to enforce the payment of a loan under some agreement at a due date. But that does not alter the fact that in the agreement the stipulation still remains untouched that no dividends shall be paid and no loans repaid without the consent of the Coal Controller. In that respect the Bill is therefore inconsistent with the provisions of the agree- ment. Then we are told that the administration expenses of the Coal Controller's Department are to be imposed upon the coal-owners instead of being paid out of the public Treasury—a most unprecedented proposal. I would like to ask the President of the Board of Trade or the Solicitor-General to give me a single example where the expenses of any Department of the State are not paid out of the public Treasury and where those expenses are levied at the cost of some one particular trade. With regard to what the coal-owner is to recieve in return for all the onerous conditions imposed upon him, we have a guarantee from the Coal Controller, where it is necessary, to bring up the profits of the colliery to the guaranteed standard at the expense of his fellow coal-owners out of the 15 per cent. additional taxation levied upon them, and that this guaranteed standard shall be reduced in the event of a reduction of output, and even if that reduction of output is due to the action of the Controller himself, yet the colliery owner who suffers by that action gets no redress. I was glad, indeed, to have a clear statement from the President of the Board of Trade to-day standing to his guns absolutely in the matter of the Government guarantee being at the back of this Bill.

With regard to the provisions for compensation, the Solicitor-General indicated that the Coal Controller had it in his power, if there is a deficit, to raise the wind by increasing the price of coal generally to consumers. I should indeed hope that action of that sort will never be needed. It would be most repugnant to the colliery owners to be compensated in any such fashion. Besides, I consider myself that we ought not to be compensated, even out of the public Treasury, unless at the same time the coal miners who suffer as a result of the operations of this Bill or of the action of the Coal Controller should be equally compensated. It is quite likely that particular collieries, by reason of the action of the Coal Controller, in the distribution of coal and otherwise, will have fewer working days than they would otherwise have had, and the coal miner who has fewer working days at particular collieries in consequence of this interference is equally entitled to compensation with the coal-owner. I do not want one without the other, and I should be only too glad if on the Report stage the President of the Board of Trade could make provision, by a new Clause or otherwise, for giving this just and equitable compensation to the coal miners, who suffer equally with the coal-owners.

With regard to the distribution of coal, my right hon. Friend told us that one of the great reasons for the introduction of this Bill was that if the Board of Trade had complete control of the whole of the production and distribution there would result an enormous reduction in the mileage of transport. He said it had been estimated by the Coal Controller that that would amount to 700,000,000 tons per annum. He instanced as a proof of the success attained already by supervising transport that London was receiving and had received more coal than last year, and that the stocks in London to-day were larger. On inquiry I was certainly surprised to find that the increase in the stocks of coal in London—not in the cellars of consumers, at any rate—was only a few paltry thousands of tons. Therefore I think that was rather much ado about nothing to take so much credit for so small a performance, and not in accordance with my right hon. Friend's usual character. But let me give an example to show how marvellously this is being worked. A friend of mine, a Member of the House, who lives on the borders of North Wales, told me that before the Coal Controller interfered he and the whole of the inhabitants of Aberystwyth were in the habit of drawing their supplies from the Wrexham district, forty or fifty miles away, but by this Regulation of the Coal Controller that supply from North Wales was no longer allowed to go to them, and they were compelled to bring their supplies from the Glamorgan district, a distance of 120 to 130 miles. Further, the North Wales coal was good house coal, and the coal they are now compelled to receive is steam coal or anthracite, wholly unsuitable for house purposes. I hope examples of that character cannot be multiplied, but that is a clear case that requires investigation.

As to the scope of the agreement embodied in the Schedule which I move to leave out, in the Bill itself, by reason of an Amendment which was introduced, it is made to apply simply to coal mines, but the agreement defines "undertaking" as There are many cases in which the owner of coal mines owns forests, iron mines, and numerous other businesses, and apparently this definition of "undertaking" would apply to them—that is, the Coal Controller would take an extra 15 per cent. of the excess profits not only of the coal mine, but the excess profits made in connection with the other businesses, and that they might even come under the Regulations of the Controller. Then, again, if a coal merchant has a coal mine probably his merchant's business would be subjected to this extra 15 per cent. tax. But if the coal merchant happens not to own a coal mine no such burden will fall on him. We were told at the interview with my right hon. Friend that there was no intention of applying the agreement at present to merchants, but he was rather indefinite as to what extension they might not ultimately make. I hope, however, that any extension will be on lines which are equitable and fair all round. The Solicitor-General told us that the object of the Bill was to force the agreement on dissentient coal-owners, and this was the only form in which it could be done. But to force an agreement on dissentient coal-owners who produce 100,000,000 tons of coal a year, whilst the House is deprived of its inherent right to discuss the agreement and make whatever alterations are necessary, is a flagrant violation of the powers and rights of the House of Commons.

The banking interests and other interests of that sort have certainly been safeguarded by the new Clause that nothing in the Act shall deprive any person upon whom the agreement contained in the Schedule is not made obligatory of any right to require money owing to him by a person upon whom the agreement is made obligatory. I welcome its introduction in the Bill, but it is inconsistent with the provision in the agreement, and if you make one change of this sort why not make other changes and make the whole agreement more consistent with Clause 22? When we raised the question of being prevented from paying dividends or repaying loans except with the consent of the Controller, the President of the Board of Trade said it was never intended that the decision of the Coal Controller should be final and binding on that point, which he agreed was important. If it was not quite clear, when they reached the Committee stage he would not object to Amendments which would make it quite clear that there was a right of appeal both in regard to this and any substituted standard. In certain cases a substituted standard must be sought by new developing collieries, which were probably not at work at all before the War, and in the agreement it is provided that in certain cases the Controller has the right to refuse to substitute another fair standard without appeal. I think there ought to be a right of appeal in that case.

With regard to coal-owners who really have acquiesced in the Bill, they reluctantly accepted the agreement, and in their resolution of 21st June, 1917, they stated that the terms of the agreement should be further modified, but practically no modification was obtained after that date. A number of these coal-owners have informed me that it was only on the most definite assurance from the President of the Board of Trade that full compensation was guaranteed by the Government that they agreed to accept what they regarded as unfair and penalising conditions. I think we may say that has been set right to-day. Otherwise I may say frankly that I question whether a very large number of coal-owners would have regarded their bargain as no longer binding upon them in view of what they would then consider the breaking of it on the part of the Government. With regard to the Government guarantee, I certainly think it ought to have been embodied in the Bill clearly, and Clause 3 and other Clauses were so indefinite, so involved, and so complicated that an ordinary business man could not understand them even if a legal man could. But I am convinced that the coal-miners as well as the coal-owners ought to have compensation for loss inflicted upon them by the Government.

The hon. Member is going not only over the whole Bill, but outside the Bill altogether.

I apologise. I was misled by the fact that in the Debate frequent reference has been made to the fact that there is no provision for the coal miner. In my judgment it is the imperative duty of the House of Commons to preserve unimpaired all its constitutional powers and rights to consider every Clause and every line of every Bill submitted to it with a view to amend, add to, or delete as it deems necessary. Every hon. Member mast surely join in protesting against the wanton invasion of the in- alienable rights of the House of Commons involved in this Bill by the form in which the agreement is presented to the House included in a Schedule which is really a vital and operative part of the Bill, but which we cannot amend even in the slightest particular. It is surely the duty of the House, before giving powers to compel persons who are no party to this agreement to come within its scope, that it should at least examine and consider all its terms and conditions and provisions, and insist upon making such charges as are deemed just and necessary. I do not desire that the Bill should be dropped, but that the Schedule should be referred back for reconsideration, so that it may be reintroduced on lines providing equitable compensation, and on lines which would give the House of Commons their full right of criticism. The Schedule which I propose to leave out should, in my judgment, be embodied in a Clause and inserted as part of the Bill, so that it would be open to criticism and alteration according to custom and traditional practice.

I beg to second the Amendment.

I think we are proceeding on extremely dangerous lines by accepting a Bill of this kind, where the agreement which forms the real substance of the Bill is not in the Bill, and cannot be discussed in this House. The result is that the head of a Government Department, with one or two members of a trade, can make an agreement and put that into a Bill and the Bill is brought to this House in such a way that we have no right to alter one word of it. I object to the method of procedure which has brought about this agreement In the first place, the Mining Association which gave its authority to the consultative committee to make this agreement acted ultra vires , and the extraordinary thing is that in acting ultra vires , and going outside their powers, they put themselves beyond the power of exercising their proper function—that is to say, one of the objects and aims of the Mining Association is to watch Bills passing through Parliament which affect the mining industry, and try to bring about such Amendments as they think desirable in the interests of that community; but, by having agreed to this Bill before it came into this House, they have put themselves outside the possibility of inserting any Amendments in the Bill.

I have had perfect good faith in the guarantee given by the President of the Board of Trade on more than one occasion, but what made us feel timid in regard to the matter was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that under no circumstances would the Exchequer be called upon to guarantee this money. Therefore, we were bound to take strong action in regard to the question of the guarantee, in view of what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said. Another thing which I would like to point out is that the Mining Association, in acting in the way they did, and this Bill being brought in in this way, precluded any people who had nothing whatever to do with the Mining Association from having a say in the matter. For instance, in the Monmouth and South Wales Coal-owners' Association there are ninety-eight coal-owners, but there are 167 outside that association. It is true that the ninety-eight members in the association, perhaps, represent 80 per cent. of the output, but, on the other hand, there are a large number of coal-owners outside the association who were in no way consulted in regard to this agreement, and they are deserving of some consideration, in view of the fact that they are small people. Therefore, that seems to me to be a strong reason why the Committee should look with disfavour on Bills being brought in in this manner, affecting so vitally people who are not parties to them. Let us take Clause 3: Does any hon. Member understand what the excess payments are? A great many coal-owners are small people, perhaps working men who have taken some small level and collected a few workmen to work it with them. Just fancy putting that Clause before men of that class and asking them to accept this agreement! Such a Clause is most difficult to understand even for counsel. I submit that this agreement, even with the Government guarantee, is very unfair, because it places a very onerous burden upon coal-owners. Clause 21 says:

So that the Committee will see that there are burdens which are not in any way met under this guarantee. In regard to the pre-war standard the guarantee only makes it up subject to the output being kept up. If the output is reduced through no fault of the coal-owner, but entirely due to the action of the Controller, he has a reduction in his pre-war profit standard and it is not made up. There are other ways in which this agreement is anything but a desirable agreement, and I trust that this will be the last Bill ever introduced on these lines and in a way that makes it impossible to discuss it Clause by Clause. We ought to have the opportunity of discussing Bills in such a way that every matter can be thoroughly dealt with.

I do not intend to intervene in this Debate at any length because I have not yet succeeded in the operation of dancing amongst eggs without breaking them, but I want to put a question to the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Walton). He emphasises the fact that the unaffiliated coal-owners have had no say in connection with this agreement. I will ask him this question: Assuming that the coal-owners and the coal miners make a county or a country agreement bearing upon the reduction of wages, would the unaffiliated coal-owners claim the right to the same reduction?

I would point out that the two questions are not on all-fours. This is not a question of wages. The wage question is one which it is usual for the collieries to abide by the decision of the majority and all are placed on an equal footing.

I do not intend to go into all these disputed points, but there is one question which is of extreme importance which I raised in the Second Beading Debate and to which I received no reply from the Front Bench. I tried to obtain an answer by putting down a new Clause which has been ruled out of order. It is of extreme importance from the point of view of those who are going to suffer through the operations of this Bill, and I should like to ascertain exactly what provisions for compensation are available under this agreement. The compensation, as I understand it, is to be determined by what is called guaranteed standards. The guarantee standard is defined in Clause 7 of the agreement as

This second provision was very clearly explained on the Second Reading by the President of the Board of Trade. The difficulty arises when we come to

"( c ) where the output of the undertaking in any accounting period is less than 65 per cent. of the standard output, the profits standard subject to such reduction as may be fixed under Clause 10."

Then in Clause 10 we have the following very obscure provision:

"If the output of the undertaking in any accounting period is less than sixty-five per cent. of the standard output, the guaranteed standard shall be the profi£e standard, subject to such reduction as the Controller may fix, and may be a sum varying according to the output:"

That is a perfectly arbitrary standard. Then we have a number of provisos. The first proviso is:

( a ) so far as the decrease in output is due to action by the Controller not common to the whole of the coal industry under his control, the guar- anteed standard shall be calculated at a rate per ton of output, regard being had only to the tonnage which would have been raised and the comparative cost of raising it had there been no such action by the Controller, and shall be greater than that which would be fixed if the rule for ascertaining the guaranteed standard in the case of an undertaking where the reduction of output was thirty-five per cent. or less applied, so however that the guaranteed standard shall in no such case exceed the amount which would have been the guaranteed standard if the reduction of output had been thirty-five per cent."

The only part of the proviso which is clear to me is the last, but apart from that statement which limits the amount of compensation there is nothing in the proviso which can convey any clear idea to anybody By what criterion are you to judge whether the reduction is due to action by the Controller not common to the whole industry? The reduction of output, for example, may arise owing to the question of transport. The Controller may say, "We cannot provide the transport to take the coal from this particular pit; therefore this particular pit must be closed." Is that to be interpreted as due to action by the Controller or due to conditions common to the whole industry? Because undoubtedly deficiency in transport is a matter which is common to the whole industry; in fact, it is the justification put forward by the President of the Board of Trade for the control and for this agreement. We therefore ought to know what interpretation is going to be placed on the words "action by the Controller not common to the whole of the coal industry." Apart from such a definition, the owner who is prejudicially affected by the action of the Controller has no security that his loss may not be attributed to conditions which are common to the whole industry, and not action on the part of the Coal Controller. The next part of the Clause is equally vague. "and shall be calculated at a rate per ton of output, regard being had only to the tonnage which would have been raised and the comparative cost of raising it had there been no such action by the Controller." These words ought to be interpreted to the Committee. As they stand they convey no clear idea whatever. It is particularly important to have some criterion for understanding them, in view of the next proviso, which is:

( b ) so far as the decrease in output is is due to any other cause, the guaranteed standard shall be less than would have been fixed if the said rule applied, and shall be calculated at a rate per ton of output, regard being had only to the tonnage raised and what it would have cost to raise such tonnage in the standard period."

It is very difficult to conceive provisions more difficult of interpretation than these. They are perhaps the most critical provisions which are to determine the compensation payable to those who are going to lose money as a result of this agreement and of the control. The other proviso is somewhat clearer, though it does not help the unfortunate coal-owner.

( c ) In either case, if a mine is closed the guaranteed standard shall not include any sum in respect of the cost of maintaining the mine in a state of repair or of reopening it or any rent, royalties, wayleaves, management, or other similar charges, in respect thereof."

I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will be in a position to explain particularly provisos ( a ) and ( b ). I have endeavoured to ascertain from those who are familiar with the industry what exactly these provisos mean, and nobody has yet been able to inform me, and it seems to me that when there is such obscurity in important provisions it is strange that the President of the Board of Trade should make such an important point of the fact that this agreement has been accepted by everybody. As the situation stands it seems tome that the great majority of people affected by this agreement and who are alleged to have agreed to it are in a complete state of ignorance as to this provision, and certainly before the Committee assents to the Schedule these matters ought to be made clear beyond dispute. If the right hon. Gentleman feels any difficulty in giving an interpretation he might be able to give us some indication by concrete examples as to what is really meant as to how these different provisions as to calculations of rate per ton of output respectively in ( a ) and ( b ) are going to be worked out, because otherwise those who are entitled to compensation are going to be left entirely at the mercy of the Controller. In other words, the Controller may simply pay the compensation, not on any ascertained principle, but in accordance with the amount of funds which he may have at his disposal for the time being. That is certainly not the understanding upon which the House assented to the Second Reading of the Bill or to its operative Clauses. The belief was that in return for the assessment which is now being made on more fortunate owners a certain security was being given to the coal-owners who were being prejudiced by the Controller that they would receive equitable compensation for any loss which they incur. The mere reading of the provisos to the Committee proves that the question of the amount of compensation and the question whether it will prove in practice equitable are left equally obscure. The Committee, in these circumstances, is bound to demand from the Government a clear interpretation of the meaning of these provisions. Otherwise it will be doing less than justice to the many people who deserve consideration who are going to be prejudiced by the legislation which we are now passing.

7.0 P.M.

I rise in order to ask the Committee if it can to come to a decision with regard to the Schedule of this Bill. For if the Schedule is not passed the whole Bill, of course, is entirely useless. In reply to the questions put by my hon. and learned Friend I would like to make one general answer. It is not the business of the Government to interpret this agreement at this stage. There exists between the agreement opportunity for those who are affected by this Bill to safeguard their rights. They are subject to arbitration in almost every instance and subject to a court of referees in other cases. So that in practically every case there is—I believe that there is only one instance in which there is not—an appeal to the Board of Referees from any decision which the Coal Controller may make in regard to these financial provisions. Therefore, their rights are protected under this agreement. That being so, I really do not see how you can say that it is the business of the Government at this stage to attempt to interpret an agreement which has been entered into by the parties in this particular way. With regard to the agreement itself, once more I wish to state what has been made clear throughout the whole of the discussion on this Bill, to whom were the Government or the Coal Controller to go to make an agreement? With the War on, and when there was a necessity to have this agreement entered into, it was an impossibility to make an agreement with any single coal-owner throughout the country, and, therefore, an attempt was made to reach an agreement through the only large association that was representative of the coal-owners. It is true that every coal-owner was not a member of that association; it is true that some objected to be bound by it, but, under the circumstances, the association which represented, or claimed to represent, 95 per cent. of the coal-owners of the country, and, therefore, having made this agreement, we felt it was perfectly right to come to this House and seek to get legislation passed in respect of it, having thus been made on behalf of the coal-owners of the country. This Schedule is an agreement, and we are bound to see, as anybody who reads it will gather, that the coal-owners, as individuals, have absolutely all the protection which is requisite, and, that being so, I do not think the House ought to resist the proposal of the Bill. A good deal of the criticism levelled against the Bill and the agreement arises, not out of the Bill at all, but out of the action of the Coal Controller in various directions—action which has absolutely nothing to do with this agreement or with the Bill. The Coal Controller was appointed before this agreement was entered into, and whether his action has been wise or not does not really relate to the question of this agreement. Much of the criticism has been improperly directed against this agreement and against this Bill, because of some other facts relating to the action of the Coal Controller. I am not going to enter into the question of whether all the actions of the Coal Controller could be justified or not. Here is a great problem, and all I am going to say is, that taking the whole position of the Coal Controller's action, I am convinced that action has, in the main, been in the national interest, and has served a useful and a great national purpose. One small point which was made had reference to the supply of coal. I would point out that the action of the Coal Controller has resulted in the supply having increased from 140,000 tons to 274,000 tons of coal during the last few months, and even in regard to London some advance has been made. The House is asked to legalise this agree- ment which has been come to. It has already, by passing the Second Beading, and by passing Clause 1, sanctioned this agreement, and it seems to mo an extraordinary proceeding that the Committee should be asked to resist this Schedule, which the House has already decided on by passing the Second Beading, and Clause 1. I submit that the speeches upon this Schedule were in reality only a repetition of the speeches made on the Second Beading, and on Clause 1.

If the House decides to leave out this Schedule it destroys the Bill. That is perfectly obvious. If it had refused the Second Beading it would have destroyed the Bill, and, under these circumstances, I ask the House to come to a decision upon the question of whether or not this Schedule shall stand part of the Bill.

I desire to ask one or two questions on this Schedule. I do not at all agree with the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, and I think that we should be given a fair idea of what is in this Schedule. In the first place I want to put this question to the Board of Trade. Clause 7 and Clause 10 give certain guarantees to those whose standard output is lower than the standard output, and, in regard to that, I desire to submit this consideration to the Government: At the outbreak of the War, the coal-owners very patriotically allowed the men to enlist and they gave them an allowance over and above the Government allowance. That action on the part of the coal-owners resulted in the output being reduced, and this Clause punishes them for their patriotism. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider that fact, and that he will make such arrangements that no colliery proprietor shall be punished for his patriotism. There is another Clause to which I desire to draw his attention, Clause 22, which says that no dividends shall be paid, and no loans repaid in respect of any undertaking without the consent of the Controller. What is the necessity for that Clause? Does the Controller think that he is not going to get his money? The Chancellor of the Exchequer does not make any such stipulation with regard to Income Tax. Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer in any worse position than the Coal Controller? I would point out to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though he is not here at the moment, what is going to be the effect on Government loans of this Clause. No loan can be repaid without the consent of the Controller. We all know that every Government Department is absolutely overworked. You might write a letter to the Coal Controller asking his consent to repayment of a loan, and it might take weeks, or months, to get a reply. What will be the result? It will be that the coal-owner will take good care to have a good balance in his bank, so that he can pay his dividends, and not borrow from the bank, as is usual. The result of that will be that his money will remain in the bank instead of Treasury bills being taken up. That is the inevitable result of this Clause. I do not know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had his attention drawn to this point. I am connected with a company which has invested temporarily in Treasury bills. That will be impossible under this Clause. Therefore, I suggest to the President of the Board of Trade that this Clause should be deleted. It has nothing to do with the principle of the Bill, and it seems to me to be purely vexatious. The Controller can surely get his money by other means. It should not be necessary for any colliery to wait, before it has declared and passed its dividend, to get the consent of the Controller. The Controller is perfectly certain of his money if this Bill passes, and therefore Clause 22 of this Bill is entirely unnecessary and vexatious.

I did not intend to speak on this Schedule, and would not have done so but for the really extraordinary speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, who, I think, quite misunderstands the object of moving the omission of the Schedule. It is the only Parliamentary means left to us of discovering what is the effect of the agreement, and what is the intention of the Government with regard to it. Was there ever such an argument put forward as that advanced in behalf of the Government a few minutes ago? Here is a complicated agreement, containing twenty-five clauses, which, had they been in a Bill, would have formed at least twenty-five sections. We have had no opportunity whatever of reviewing or amending this agreement. We have been denied any opportunity of putting any imperfections right, nor have we been given any explanation of a single clause of this agreement. This agreement, with its twenty-five clauses, affects one of the largest industries in this country. What is the answer of the hon. Gentleman who represents this Government? In effect, his answer is that he will not answer any question on this agreement, or as to what is the effect of a single clause of it. There are the Law Courts, he says, or the Court of Referees. That was the only tribunal to which we could appeal. I think, in all seriousness, that the hon. Gentleman was not entitled to put an explanation like that before the House. I really think that my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Pringle) put perfectly courteously and fairly his points as to the substantial effect of this Clause, and in asking what possible interpretation could be put upon it. I trust that the President of the Board of Trade will not part with this Schedule to-night without trying to give some reasonable explanation of the complicated questions we find in it.

I will put as clearly as I can one or two doubtful points. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that there is no wish to hinder the passage of this Bill. I can assure him that this agreement has been carefully scanned by most skilful accountants and by counsel, and they find that, in many particulars, it is impossible for them to give guidance to the coal-owners. I will take one or two basis points as to the practical working of this agreement, in regard to which I appeal to the Government to give some answer. The first point I would put to the right hon. Gentleman is as to the meaning of Clause 10, paragraphs ( a ) and ( b ), in connection with the agreement in the schedule. He will recollect that the effect of this Clause is that, if the output is reduced below 65 per cent. of the pre-war output, there are provisions for fixing the guaranteed standard, and the rate varies according as the reduction below that standard has or has not been caused by the action of the Controller "not common to the whole of the coal industry under his control." I would point out that the practical effect of the words "not common to the whole of the coal industry" under his control is this: There is the case, arising every day, of the shortage of wagons, caused by the fact that the control of wagon is under the Controller. The effect of the shortage of wagons in every colliery is unduly to decrease the output—in many, below the 65 per cent. standard. No one can state when that action is common to the whole industry under his control, or when it applies to particular collieries. That is a fair business point upon which we are entitled to ask the President of the Board of Trade what his view of the Clause is. Another point under the Clause is this: In a case in which the output is reduced below the 65 per cent., the guaranteed standard is to be fixed by the Controller, with an appeal to the Board of Referees; but the whole basis of how it is to be fixed is left quite vague in the agreement, and no one can say how it is going to be fixed. For instance, if the right hon. Gentleman looks at 10 ( a ) ( b ) he will see that a standard is to be recognised fixed at a rate per ton of the output. But there is no criterion whatever afforded of what that rate is to be, except that regard is to be taken of the working of the colliery in the past. I would ask, as this affects every colliery whose working goes below 65 per cent., how is that rate to be fixed and on what criterion?

There is another point of very general application left quite vague. There is nothing to show in the Bill or agreement whether the Inland Revenue Commissioners will make any allowance for the additional tax of 15 per cent. in assessing Excess Profits Tax and Income Tax. I am told that in some cases, and I know from actual experience, an allowance is made by the Commissioners for subscriptions or donations made to the Mining College in South Wales. That is right, but it is done, I believe, entirely as a matter of grace. These are not legal quibbles, but matters of substantial importance in the everyday working of the collieries. I would also ask whether any allowance will be made for the extra 5 per cent. levy which may be imposed on the coal-owner? Paragraph 22 of the agreement provides that no dividends shall be paid and no loans repaid in respect of any undertaking without the consent of the Controller. I really do not know how we stand with regard to that. I am told, so far as the lawyers can interpret this, that the effect is that no one can pay a dividend and no one can pay a loan without the consent of the Controller, but any bank can at any moment sue for its money. Those are three of the main points, though one could speak for half an hour on points of difficulty put to one every day as to the working out of the agreement. I appeal to the President to give us some clear guidance of the policy and intention of the Controller, if he cannot say what the legal effect of the agreement is. I protest most strongly against the reply of the Government spokesman who so far has replied. It is almost an insult to the House of Commons to address to it the argument which he used, and on a Bill of the financial character of this, with its far-reaching effect upon thousands of collieries and individuals, for a representative of the Board of Trade which has control of the business outlook of this Government to practically say with contempt to the Members of the House, "I will not explain the agreement; it has nothing to do with us; there are the Law Courts and the Board of Referees." I appeal to the President to correct in some way the unfortunate impression which I cannot but think has been caused among Members, and which will be felt by all coal-owners and those engaged in this vast industry in the country when they read the words which fell from the hon. Gentleman.

I desire to call the attention of the Committee to the extraordinary doctrine enunciated by the Parliamentary Secretary, namely, that this House has nothing to do with the obscurity and un-intelligibility of the measure before us, and that those are not to be cleared up by the Front Bench in any way, and that the Department is not to be consulted in order that the Committee may know what it is doing. That appears to me to be a most extraordinary doctrine. It is explainable when we remember that the measure which the hon. Gentleman was called on to explain is in itself incomprehensible. Even the most learned King's Counsel before whom this measure has been put have thrown it up in despair and have said that it is quite impossible to interpret, and I do not wonder. My hon. Friends referred to parts of this agreement which the Committee is asked to homologate to show how unintelligible it is. Let me refer to paragraph 3, which reads:

"If in any accounting period the profits exceed the profits standard by more than the amount mentioned in Section thirty-eight (1) of the Act, the owner shall be entitled to retain only so much of those profits as is equal to the amounts of the profits standard plus the amount so mentioned, with the addition thereto of an amount equal to one-fourth part of such excess remaining after the deduction therefrom of a percentage equal to the rate of Excess Profits Duty for the time being in force, and the balance of the profits less the amount paid or payable for Excess Profits Duty in respect of the accounting period in question without deduction therefrom of any set-off in respect of any other period."

The Amendment is to leave out the Schedule, and, as the Parliamentary Secretary said, by doing so the whole Bill falls to pieces, and that therefore it was a wrecking Amendment. That was the intention of my hon. Friends apparently, and it was certainly my intention in putting my name to this particular Amendment. My objecton to the measure is its incomprehensibility, and secondly, that it binds certain members of the coal trade who were not parties to the agreement. That I consider to be a most unfair way by asking certain officials of a mining association to work an agreement.

That point was raised by Amendment to Clause 1 and then decided by the Committee in the negative.

I was thinking particularly of people in Scotland affected in that way and called upon to abide by an incomprehensible arrangement to which they were not parties. A further objection of mine is that the success of the Controller has not-been such that we should extend his powers. This measure practically hands over the mining industry to his control. Since he took over the mines some months ago short time has spread in many of the districts, and I am told some mines are entirely idle. The supply of coal has not been improved since he came into power. For these various reasons I desire that the measure should not pass, and I support this Amendment because it is a wrecking Amendment.

I object to this going without any further reply. My hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. Roch) put three definite points which are left still obscure. We have only had the insulting reply of the hon. Gentleman, who by some freak of fortune has become Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade. He has told us definitely that he has nothing to do with understanding the terms of the agreement. We have had many novel doctrines during the War. We have been invited by successive Governments to vote all sorts of measures of folly, apparently on the ground that because of the War we are to be guilty of any kind of folly. But, we have never had the doctrine soberly propounded from the Front Bench that the hon. Gentleman desires to give, regarding the interpretation of a Clause in the Bill, that we are to be denied information and to be told from that Bench that it is not the business of the Government to tell us what their Bill is, but that the unfortunate people affected will have their remedy in the Law Courts. That is monstrous, and unless we get something further from the Government we are going to divide the House against this Schedule, and I think it is the duty of every man, whatever view he takes of the purposes of this agreement, to protest against this doctrine by voting against the Schedule. There have been three points put by my hon. Friend. I put the first myself before the Parliamentary Secretary replied, but he disdained to answer that point as to the interpretation of A. and B. in paragraph 10 of the Schedule. Under that provision compensation is to be assessed for all those coal-owners whose output is reduced to less than 65 per cent. of the standard output. But there is no guidance whatever given as to how that compensation is to be assessed. This House is the trustee of the interests of those people, and is bound to have regard to their interests. If this Bill did not pass those people would have their Common Law rights, and could also go before the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission, or they might go to the House of Lords, which is a very expensive process. Under this Bill those rights are being taken away, and no such remedies will be available after the Bill is passed. I say it is the duty of this House to know what is given in exchange for these legal lights, and if this House allows this Bill to leave its hands without knowing what is given to these people, it is not doing its duty; it is faithless to its trust as the representative of the people. We, as representatives, are seeking for information and for guidance, and we have an Under-Secretary getting up and saying to Members of this House that they have no right to put these questions—that the Government is not bound to answer them—that those concerned can go to law. I do not know whether the President of the Board of Trade intends to speak. I think he ought to speak. I should not have spoken again except that no spokesman on the Government Benches rose. We desire an answer to our questions. I think that a great number of Members of this Committee will insist that we shall not go to a Division upon this Schedule unless and until we get an answer to the questions we have put. After all, that is one of the few privileges left. By a piece of chicanery in drafting, this House is deprived of the right of amending any of the deficiencies of this monstrous agreement—for it is a monstrous agreement! Never before has an agreement been put in a Schedule affecting such interests without the House being given the opportunity of amendment. It is a new form of legislation—a form which has only come into vogue with the present extraordinary Government. I hope it will die with their speedy demise. If we are not entitled to amend, surely we are entitled to information. If we do not get the information, then I think we are bound to reject the measure.

The second point of my right hon. Friend was in regard to the position of the coal mines guaranteed payment in respect of Income Tax. That is an extremely important matter. There is a provision, but it is absolutely obscure as to what the provision means. It is in Clause 16:

In other words, as my hon. Friend beside me says, they may, having made these excess coal payments to the Coal Controller, be assessed up to 5s. in the £l by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in respect of these payments. These men are entitled to know what is to happen in this respect. Are they, having made excess coal payments, to be relieved of Income Tax in respect of those payments, or are they to be compelled to pay 5s. in the £l in respect of something which they have not received at all? The agreement as it stands is not clear. We are bound to ask for an interpretation of this matter from the Government. Another Clause upon which an answer is required is Clause 22:

"No dividends shall be paid and no loans repaid in respect of any undertaking without the consent of the Controller."

But we have been told in the course of the Committee stage that where a loan falls due for repayment the creditor is entitled to sue the debtor for the return of the money and is entitled to go into Court; that this Clause would not be a defence to an action by a creditor for repayment. In other words, there is nothing to prevent the creditor succeeding in his action. What is the position? Is the Controller still to be able to say that the money is not to be paid, although judgment has been obtained? I put this question at an earlier stage, and I got no answer from the Government. I was not surprised that I did not get an answer, because, indeed, the policy of the Government throughout the Committee stage of this Bill has been to carry out in practice what the hon. Gentleman has now openly described as the theory of the Government, namely, that it is not the duty of the Government to interpret its own measures. The Committee on this occasion has the opportunity of expressing an opinion on this monstrous procedure, and insisting, having had it once avowed, that it shall never again be avowed from that bench; whatever little independence still remains in this docile and subservient House of Commons that there is at least a sufficient spark remaining to insist that we shall not be deliberately flouted and insulted as we have been to-day by the Under-Secretary to the Board of Trade.

I little thought I should intervene in the Debate upon this Bill. I am one of those who have listened to the Debates upon it, anxious to learn what this Bill is about. Being in no way connected with the coal trade I cannot speak with authority from that point of view, but I do raise my voice in protest against being asked to give my assent to a Schedule which contains an agreement about which practically no explanation has been given from the Front Bench, which we have been told could not be amended, which could only be discussed in detail when we came to the Schedule, which could be rejected if the House or Committee were so disposed; and, when Members like myself, who are anxious for information, to know whether or not our assent should be given asked, or our colleagues asked, for such information, we are surprised to find that the answer from the Front Bench is that we practically have no right to such information, we must accept what the Government chooses to give us. I protest most strongly against the House of Commons being placed in that position. The proceedings on the Committee stage of an important Bill like this are reduced to an absolute farce. If we cannot have from the Government an explanation of so important a measure as this which affects such an industry. I see that Members of the Government on the Front Bench have been hastily, at the last moment, taking counsel together, and it brings forcibly to my mind the fear, if not the suspicion, that they themselves do not really understand the agreement, and that the reason given by the Under-Secretary, which I do not for one moment say was deliberately intended as an insult to the House of Commons, was to cover up ignorance which they unfortunately possess. I do very strongly urge as a Member of this Committee, who is not in any way informed of the details of this Bill, that we should have some further information given to us before we are asked to give assent to such a Schedule.

The hon. and learned Gentleman near to me (Mr. Pringle) referred to excess payments. He pointed out that the wording of the Schedule by no means implied any duty upon the Income Tax Surveyor or the Commissioners to make the necessary reduction in respect of the Schedule D Income Tax upon the return. It says:

"(16) Nothing in this agreement shall prevent …" no doubt nothing in this agreement shall prevent, but the Finance Act of Parliament prevents it. You cannot deduct anything more than the ordinary excess profits in arriving at Schedule D. If that be so, the wording of this will not compel the Commissioners to allow the additional deduction. In effect the coal-owner will have to pay 5s. in the £ on the 15 per cent. unless some provision is properly made in the next Finance Act which is certainly not in the present one. I put this point to the Solicitor-General that the wording of this agreement, amongst these gentlemen themselves, in no way charges the surveyor to make the allowance. I would further point out to the Committee the very unfair provision which immediately precedes Clause 16.

"Provided that no Excess Profits Duty paid in respect of a period prior to the time when the control of the undertaking in question commenced shall be repayable by reason of any deficiency created by coal mines excess payments in respect of any period whilst the undertaking was subject to control …"

I think that is very hard lines, and very unjust. If a coal-owner has paid out some of the excess profits in the prior accounting period, and he loses by this 15 per cent. excess deducted from him, why should he not be recouped, or, at all events, allowed to merge in the subsequent period strikes me as being most unjust. I hope the right hon. and learned Gentleman will answer me in regard to Clause 16: How the coal-owner is to get protection and allowance, so that he shall not have to pay the 5s. upon the 15 per cent?

I shall be glad, to the best of my ability, to answer the specific questions, but I am bound to say that a Law Officer does not on these occasions get much encouragement to make matters plain. He is asked a question of law. He endeavours to give the only possible answer he can give, that is a lawyer's explanation of the question, and immediately three or four Gentlemen get up from the back Benches and talk about legal subtlety and the like. These remarks may be made in good humour, but they are not the kind of remarks which tempt a man to other explanations unless he must give them. I am glad to offer such explanation as I can of an agreement which, as I have previously observed, is by no means free from difficulty. But it is an agreement which has been come to between the parties, and it does not represent the bargain at which they have arrived, and it contains the remedies which are satisfactory to them.

When the hon. Gentleman is finished it will be appropriate for me to begin.

I say that the agreement is not satisfactory, and that a very large number of coal-owners, producing 111,000,000 tons a year, entirely dissent from it.

And while the right hon. and learned Gentleman is sitting down I beg also to say that it has been accepted by force, and by threats that, if we did not take it, we should have something very much worse.

There are coal-owners who do not accept this agreement. I recognise that fact, and it is precisely because there are some coal-owners who do not accept the agreement that this Bill is necessary. I was speaking in my former observations of the coal-owners who do accept it. I come next to deal with the particular questions which have been raised. Certain matters were raised in regard to Clause 10, but, before I deal specifically with that Clause, may I, for the sake of clearness, endeavour to explain what is the scheme of the agreement. The object is to make arrangements whereby, when the Controller has control of the output of coal, nobody shall suffer undue loss. Certain coal-mines may be expected to have a larger output than they otherwise might, and certain other coal-mines may be expected to have a smaller output than they otherwise would, and the scheme of the agreement is to come as near as possible to a pool, to provide that out of the profits of the mine where the output is in excess, provision shall be made for those coal mines where the output is diminished. For that purpose the agreement provides that every colliery-owner in respect of his colliery undertaking shall have what the agreement calls a guaranteed standard, the object of which is that he shall, so far as may be, be guaranteed in the profits which he would have made under pre-war conditions.

It is obvious that there must be three groups of cases to be dealt with under these provisions. There is the case where, under the new conditions, the colliery-owner will make his profits standard; that is to say, the profits standard under the Finance Act of 1915—a profits standard arrived at by permitting the colliery-owner to take any two of the three years before the War and take an average for those two years and say, "That is my profits standard." It is only when the profit exceeds that standard, and, in addition, a further sum of £200, that Excess Profits Duty becomes payable. The first case, therefore, is where, under the new scheme, the colliery-owner's output is not less than the standard output, and where that is the case the agreement provides—as, I think, naturally and properly—that the guaranteed standard shall be the profits standard. But then the output may be less and the profits may be correspondingly less, and so the scheme of the agreement is to divide these cases into two groups. First, there are the cases where the coal output in the accounting period is 65 per cent. of the standard output, and there is a class of case where the output is less than 65 per cent. of the standard output. In the former of these two classes of cases where the output is less than the standard output, but the amount is at least 65 per cent. of it, then the guaranteed standard becomes the profits standard with an appropriate reduction, that appropriate reduction being a percentage equal to three-fourths of the percentage of the reduction of output. I should imagine that that is sufficiently clear. Then we come to the final group of cases, the cases where the output is not only less than the standard output but does not amount to 65 per cent. of it. The provision of the agreement under Clause 7 is that in such a case the guaranteed standard shall be the profits standard, subject, however, to certain reductions which may be fixed under Clause 10. And it is in reference to those reductions that certain questions have been asked in this Debate.

May I refer to Clause 10 before I deal with two points which the hon. and learned Member for Pembroke (Mr. Roch) has put? What does Clause 10 provide? We are dealing now with cases where the output is less than 65 per cent. of the standard output. The Clause says: pro tanto of diminishing the output, but it would not be due to any action on the part of the Controller. It would be due to causes common to the whole coal industry, and, that being so, that would be the kind of factor which would not be taken into account.

The right hon. Gentleman has given a most important opinion. These trucks are largely under the control of-the Coal Controller. Some of the collieries may get a plentiful supply of trucks; others may be denied trucks owing to the action of the Coal Controller. It is submitted that that would not be a cause common to the whole coal trade. Yet these cases would not be met under this Clause. That is the point I raise.

I am obliged to hon. Member. No doubt there might be cases in which delay at the port was due to action on the part of the Coal Controller, and if that were so—and it will be a question of fact in each case—it is quite obvious that that delay would not be due to causes common to the whole of the coal industry under his control. But it would depend on a question of fact in each case. Of course if there were disputes on that matter, if there were a real dispute as to whether the delay was due to specific action by the Coal Controller or whether it was due to action common to the whole of the coal industry under his control that would be an appropriate question to be fought out under the Clause in this agreement which relates to the submission of such matters to arbitration But as I understand it it would depend on the facts in each case, whether the decrease was due to particular action on the part of the Coal Controller or whether, on the other hand, it was due to action common to the whole industry. No doubt it is possible to find illustrations very near the line on one side or the other, and that is a distinction for which Sub-section ( a ) provides. Now I come to Sub-section ( b ), as to which questions have been asked. I should like to read that Sub-section. It runs:

"( b ) so far as the decrease in output is due to any other cause, the guaranteed standard shall be less than would have been fixed if the said rule applied, and shall be calculated at a rate per ton of output, regard being had only to the tonnage raised and what it would have cost to raise such tonnage in the standard period."

In other words, the object, and as I submit the proper object of this Sub-section is to put the coal-owner into the position in which he would have been if his output had been raised under pre-war conditions. The calculation is to be at a rate per ton of output. It is asked what is that rate per ton? We find it in the agreement. The answer is that it is a rate per ton which is to be calculated upon all the circumstances—a fair and reasonable rate per ton showing the actual cost of raising the coal under these particular conditions. It is not a fixed rate to which one can point beforehand. It is a rate per ton of the cost of raising that coal under the particular circumstances.

Does the hon. and learned Gentleman mean by that that the rate is to be interpreted as the cost of production under pre-war conditions and nothing more?

I understand it will be this, that the Controller will look at the amount of coal which is raised in these conditions and will ask himself the question what would have been the cost of raising that quantity of coal if pre-war conditions had obtained. Then my right hon. Friend has been asked, what will happen where the output falls below 65 per cent? That question I have by anticipation already answered from Clause 7 which refers to Clause 10. Another right hon. Gentleman asked with regard to Clause 22. Perhaps I may read that Clause which has the merit of being quite short. It runs: 8.0 P.M.

And then the kind of arbitration is laid down. We look in vain for Clause 22 for any words expressly making the decision of the Controller final. I should have thought that if a dispute of that character were to arise it would be a proper subject—

May I ask the Solicitor-General whether dividends in this sense include also reserved profits, unpaid dividends for the time? Has the Controller the right to refuse that as well as ordinary dividends?

I am not prepared to answer that question on the spur of the moment. I should like to consider it, but my impression is that that payment would not be the kind of payment contemplated.

I was unfortunately not here during the whole of the discussion on the Committee stage, but am I not right in thinking that a new Clause, or an Amendment, was put in to the effect that where a party was not a party to this agreement the provision which enacts that no loan shall be repaid without the consent of the Controller does not apply?

I can only reply to the right hon. Baronet in the words which he knows so well: " Infandum, regina, jubes renovate dolorem ." We did indeed have discussions upon this matter, but I do not think the Clause was quite as he put it. Speaking from recollection, and I may be wrong, that new Clause provided that nothing in this Bill deprives of any right a person upon whom the agreement is not made obligatory. How that would work out in a case, say, where a bank sued for payment and the Controller refused his consent is one of those interesting questions which I am not prepared on the spur of the moment to answer. There again, is ft not fair to say that it is to be assumed that the Controller will behave reasonably?

I go further than that, and say it is not only to be hoped, but that it is to be assumed that he will behave reasonably. If in these circumstances a bank had commenced an action with a good cause of action and the Controller had refused his consent with no sufficient reason I am sure the right hon. Baronet will have no difficulty, I will not say in hoping, but in assuming what the result of an arbitration would be.

You cannot go to arbitration on the question whether a man has consented or not.

I am not suggesting for a moment that you can go to arbitration or are to arbitrate upon a question of fact whether there has been consent or not. What I am suggesting is that in these circumstances the parties might go to arbitration upon the question whether the Controller unreasonably withheld his consent.

I really do not want to make difficulties, and only want to ask the hon. and learned Gentleman whether he is not departing from the ordinary principles on which you can go to arbitration. You can go to arbitration with anything that is in dispute. You have not left it to any outside person to go into the reasons why the consent is or is not given. I suggested to the hon. and learned Gentleman that you should put these matters in. I thought it would save a great deal of difficulty if you could have put in words by which an arbitration might ensue. I do not think that Clause 23—the Arbitration Clause—is at all applicable to this question of consent or non-consent.

My hon. and learned Friend, if I may say so, has made many suggestions in the course of this discussion, both in the House and otherwise, of the greatest utility, and I do recollect the suggestion which he made upon this particular point. The difficulty about the acceptance of it was that to have accepted it would have been to alter the agreement. There remains, as I understand, another point. I have endeavoured to the best of my ability to deal with the various points that have been made, but there remains, as I understand, another point. It was asked whether the coal mines excess payments were moneys upon which Income Tax would have to be paid. I can only say that my view is—time alone can test the accuracy of it; I am asked my opinion, and I give it—that coal mines excess payments are and will be treated as an allowable deduction in arriving at profits for the purposes of Income Tax.

My hon. and learned Friend says, for excess profits, too. No, I think not; and for this reason: They are not a deduction in arriving at an excess chargeable to Excess Profits Duty, because the Excess Profits Duty and the coal mines excess payments—if my hon. and learned Friend will look at Clause 15—are chargeable upon the same amount of excess. The result may be slightly anomalous and open to observation, but the point of substance is—and I think it will meet with the approval of Members of all parties who have looked into this matter—that upon the coal mines excess payments the coal-owners, as I venture to believe, will not be subject to Income Tax. I have endeavoured to explain these matters. Of course nobody suggests that this form of Bill is ideal, but I am equally sure that nothing would be further from the desire of the Committee than that some hon. Member, whether another or myself, should have begun this discussion by anything in the nature of a general essay upon the scope and meaning of the agreement.

I wish to reassure my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. Some of his remarks rather indicated that he thought his efforts in interpreting the Bill and the agreement which is scheduled to the Bill have not been appreciated by the Committee. I can assure him the exact reverse is the case. My only complaint in this discussion has been that he has not been present to deal with the points of interpretation that have been made, and the little heat that was generated would not have been generated if it had not been for the ill-advised, and I hope unpremeditated, remark of his hon. Friend, that it was not the business of the Government to do what the Solicitor-General has now done so admirably. I do not for a moment believe that he has set every doubt at rest, but at least he has made a fair effort to make clear to many of us what has been obscure. Whether he has set these matters at rest will be determined in the future by the machinery which has already been referred to, and it will not be for the House to bear any re-sponsibility for that; but at least the House knows what in the opinion of the Law Officers it is doing.

Question, "That this be the Schedule of the Bill." Put, and agreed to.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Thursday, and to be printed.[Bill 111]

Non-Ferrous Metal Industry Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I wish to ask your ruling upon a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. The first Clause of the Bill says it shall not be lawful for any company doing such-and-such things to trade unless licensed to do so by the Board of Trade. The point of Order I wish to raise is this: Different Departments in the Government already licence several trades. There is a licence for the licensed victuallers, a licence to deal in tobacco, licences for men servants, there are gun licences, and there are various licences which have been issued by various Departments from time to time. All these licences are imposed in the Budget—that is to say, they are levies upon the citizens of the country in the form of taxation. Every one of these licences, so far as I know, has always been placed in a Budget Bill founded on a Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means; and the point which I wish to ask you is, whether, as this Bill proposes to prevent any person trading unless he is licensed by a certain Department of the Government, that is not in effect levying a tax upon certain subjects, and whether, under those circumstances, it is not necessary that this Bill should be founded upon a Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means? I have already drawn your attention to this matter, and I do not know whether it is necessary for me to repeat my arguments, because I think you are conversant with them. But I would say this, that if it is argued that this is not a licence, but merely a registration fee—and that there are instances in which a Bill has been brought in which enacts that a registration fee shall be paid—and that it is not necessary if it is merely a registration fee to have a Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means, so far as I can see in the Bill there is nothing to show that the charge shall merely be a registration fee in order to provide for any necessary out-of-pocket expenses that may arise if anyone has to be registered. If I am right, and if the argument of the Government is that it is merely a registration fee, then I would ask you, Sir, whether that ought not to be clearly stated in the Bill?

I understand the point which the right hon. Gentleman raises is that, as Clause 1 imposes the payment of a fee in respect of any licence which is issued to carry on a non-ferrous metal industry, that forms a charge, or might be taken to be a charge and that, therefore, it would be necessary, before that could be discussed, to have a Resolution in Committee of Ways and Means. It appears to me that it works out in this way: No company or individual can carry on the work unless the company or individual is licensed. Then this licence is only to be given on the payment of the prescribed fee. I think we have to consider the word "fee" in the usual acceptation of the term, in connection with the grant of a licence, and presumably the word "fee" means a comparatively small fee. If it were a large fee imposed, it would have to have some other name. A fee, as I read it in this Bill, would be a small fee of an administrative character which would cover the expense of preparation, printing, paper, and so on, in connection with the fee. If that be so—and I understand that is so from, the Bill—I do not think that there will be any necessity for any Resolution, because no charge will be imposed. Very much the same thing occurred in the Registration of Firms Act, which was passed last year, where a fee was imposed, and the same thing also occurred in the Electric Lighting Act, of 1882, where a fee was charged upon registration, and in neither of those cases was there any Resolution required.

On a point of Order. May I also ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, as a matter of convenience to the House, upon the Motions that are put down upon the Order Paper in reference to the Second Reading of this Bill? You, Sir, will notice that six hon. Members have given notice to move that the Bill be read a second time this day three months. Five other hon. Members and myself have given notice of an Amendment declining to proceed with the Bill at present under the circumstances indicated, which, of course, I will not go into for the purposes of this point. I wish to ask you, for our general convenience in discussing the Second Reading, whether you rule that it would be in order to move the Motion, notice of which has been given, or whether the whole discussion will simply be whether the Bill be read a second time or not I think if we had your views upon that point it would help some of us as to the action we should take, and the form in which the Debate should go on. Therefore, I venture to put the point to start with.

I should be inclined to call upon one of the hon. Members to move that the Bill be read a second time upon this day three months, and that would enable others who approach the Bill from a narrower ground to make their speeches and join in the discussion.

On the point of Order. If the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Rutherford) wants to raise this particular point, would it not be more appropriate to do so by a Motion for the Adjournment of the Debate?

He can raise all the points he wishes to raise in connection with the deputation and the Report of the Commercial Committee upon the Amendment that the Bill be read a second time upon this day three months.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

In moving the Second Reading of this Bill, I should like, with the permission of the House, to give some explanation of the circumstances which have led to the introduction of this Bill, and also some explanation of the Bill itself. This subject has engaged the attention of the Board of Trade for some very considerable time. Certainly, ever since I have had the honour of occupying this high office, I have given a great deal of attention to this particular matter. Ever since the Paris Economic Conference in June, 1916, we, in consultation with the Dominions, and also with the French Government, have considered what steps should be taken to give practical effect to the Resolution of that Conference imposing on the Allied Governments the duty of making their countries independent of our present enemies as regards control of essential commodities.

Of these essential commodities none is of more importance, both in peace and in war, than the non-ferrous metals, and in particular spelter, lead, nickel, copper, aluminium, tin, and I might enumerate several others. Therefore, it is vitally necessary in the interests of this country and the Empire that these metals should be free from any enemy control. I think I am right in saying that none of us realised before the War how we had allowed ourselves to become dependent, with regard to these materials, so vitally essential for the successful prosecution of our industries both in peace time, and certainly vital to our very existence in time of war, on sources of supply controlled either directly or indirectly by Germany.

What was the position in respect to these metals at the outbreak of war? It was this: The world's markets in these metals were very largely controlled by a group of German metal companies engaged primarily in buying metals and in acting as selling agents for producers. The most important of these concerns is the Metallgesellschaft of Frankfurt, which was the centre of German metallurgical and financial interests which had combined to establish the Metallbank and Metallurgishe-Gesellschaft. These great and powerful organisations have in one way or another established financial interests to a greater or less degree in metal undertakings, not only in Germany and in Austria, but in the United States, the United Kingdom, and in other parts of the British Empire. There were also other companies in Frankfort. One was the Beer Sondheimer Company and the other the Aron Hirsch Company. Each of these undertakings, both of them in Frankfort, had established interests in one way or another with other companies in various parts of the world, and this enormous, powerful, group of capitalists controlled the world's metal markets, and thus Frankfort was the centre of the world's metal markets. They have very large financial resources, they granted advances freely to producers of raw material, and they owned and controlled a number of mines and smelting and refining works in various parts of Great Britain. Their connection with other undertakings and their ramifications are exceedingly complicated and very difficult to trace. In some instances there was a direct financial connection, and in others the connection was established by some form of agreement or other, but whatever the method there could be no question whatever about their ascendancy in the metal trade of the world.

Take, for instance, lead. Before the War the Germans were, by means of the so-called Lead Convention, which they organised, placed in complete control of the lead trade of the world. Attempts were being made to secure the control of the largest smelteries in the Empire, and beyond that to secure the control of all the free lead in the world. Even during the War they have made repeated attempts to secure the control of undertakings in neutral countries, in some instances with success. Take spelter, for instance. The German interests controlled not only nearly all the raw material available for Europe, but also a very large part of the production of refined metal. Not only did they own works in Germany, but they also owned or controlled works in Belgium, France, and the United Kingdom, and their hold upon spelter was so great and so powerful that they were able to restrict the output of spelter in the United Kingdom. In nickel and aluminium they also exercised a very large measure of control. There is no question that before the War their activities in all directions were very rapidly expanding, and undoubtedly their aim was the complete and unfettered control of these metals of the whole of the world.

At the outbreak of war this German control was undoubtedly a source of great embarrassment to the Government. The Minister of Reconstruction who, shortly after the outbreak of war, became associated with the Ministry of Munitions, will, I am quite sure, be able to tell the House of the many difficulties which confronted that Department arising out of this control of the metals by German interests. In order that we might have the best possible expert advice on this important problem my predecessor appointed a very strong trade committee, known as the Non-Ferrous Metals Committee. Since I took office I have added three representatives to that Committee, representing the great Dominions of Canada, Australia, and South Africa. I need hardly tell the House that a great deal of the advice and the Reports furnished to me by this Committee are of the most confidential character and could not be published without giving very valuable information to the enemy. I do not propose to make any detailed reference to the contents of these Reports, but I may say generally that after exploring all the possibilities of effective action for the purpose of establishing this great and all-important trade free from German influence and control, the Committee came to the conclusion that so elaborate is the existing network of organisations, so devious their methods, so tight their hold over the world's markets, so powerful their resources, that an essential preliminary condition of the successful organisation of any counter measure is to secure that at all events for a period after the War all trace of German influence and association, direct and indirect, shall be eliminated from any undertaking allowed to do business in this country.

I have given, this matter very careful thought, and I think I can safely assure the House that, given this condition, the national interests will be adequately maintained. I myself am not prepared to believe that the commercial and financial ability of this country is not adequate for the task. I believe that, given a fair field and a fair start, our traders will be able to satisfactorily solve this metal problem and to hold their own in competition with any of the markets in the world. We have proved in this War what British grit and brains can do, and I am certain that we shall prove equal to the problem that lies before us. I should like to add that when I say "British" I include the Dominions. I am confident that this same remark can be applied to our great Ally, France. This is a problem that will not wait until after the War for its solution. We cannot wait to take steps to establish this vital industry free from German influence and control until this War has come to an end. We think that we are quite safe in assuming that the great Germon combine will, immediately the War is ended, make every effort to re-establish its former connections and to pursue its policy of penetration and of control. We must be prepared—and not find ourselves too late and helpless—to avoid what would be nothing short of a national calamity. We have succeeded, as a direct result of the War, in freeing ourselves from the strangle-hold which Germany had upon us. Let us make certain that the lessons of the War shall not be neglected. Let us take the necessary steps to prevent these German interests from again obtaining that death grip upon our vital industries which the control of these metals gave them before the War.

We have been told that the effect of eliminating German influence upon metal dealing in this country will be to drive the centre of the world's metal market from London to Hamburg or to New York. For myself, I do not believe in these prophesies, nor do I believe that in all cases the suggestions have a thoroughly disinterested origin. Surely it is only reasonable to assume that we shall be better able to maintain London's supremacy by having the control of the metals than would be the case if the control were vested in the Germans. The London Metal Exchange is singularly unimpressed with this alleged danger, as-shown by their all but unanimous resolution of approval of the principles of this Bill. However that may be, I prefer to lose fighting for my rights than to allow my enemy to destroy me without any interference on my part. I should like to ask what difference there is between Frankfort and Hamburg. To me either place is equally objectionable. May I at this point refer to the resolution of the London Metal Exchange to which I have just made reference. At a fully attended meeting of the members of the Metal Exchange on 19th November the following resolution was carried: any of the provisions as set forth in the Schedule. The burden of proof lies with the applicant and not with the licensing authority. Clause 2 gives the Board of Trade power to require certain information and to inspect the books and documents of companies, firms, or individuals who apply for or who have been granted a licence. Clause 3 provides certain penalties if any person carries on the business of extracting, smelting, dressing, refining, or dealing in metallic metal or ores in contravention of this Act without a licence, or refuses or neglects to furnish information required by the Act or gives false information. Clause 4 empowers the Board of Trade to make rules which as regards fees must be approved by the Treasury. Clause 5 names the metals or ores to which the Act applies and which may be added to by Order of the Board of Trade. Clause 6 describes the Title of the Act, and the period that it is to remain in force.

During the War and for a period of five years after the War. With regard to this Schedule, I understand that there are two points in it which give hon. Members who generally support the principle of the Bill some anxiety. The first is on paragraph 1 and the other is on paragraph 2. I desire to reassure the House on both these points. The Bill does not automatically exclude from licence every concern that falls within any of the provisions of the Schedule. The Schedule only enumerates the conditions which may bring an undertaking under review by the licensing authority, which must necessarily be very comprehensive and complete if the objects of the Bill are to be secured. It is only reasonable to assume that the licensing authority will act reasonably in dealing with all those cases. As regards paragraph 1, it certainly is not intended to, nor does it, in my opinion, cast any stigma upon any naturalised subject of enemy birth, but I think we are entitled in that particular connection to make a very careful scrutiny before any licence is granted. As regards the other point, namely, paragraph 2, the existence of a few enemy-held shares which give no sort of control whatever or carry no influence whatever with them and which cannot, in the circumstances, be acquired from them, will probably not be held to debar an undertaking from trading. We shall be prepared, at a later stage, to give consideration to some qualifying words on this particular point. I should like to say what must be quite obvious to all hon. Members, that this measure is not designed in the interest of the trade. It is framed in the national interests. Surely there cannot be the slightest disagreement about the absolute need of securing beyond any doubt that the concentration in the hands of a German group of the control of these metals, so essential to British industry, shall not take place after the War! We know the unscrupulous methods that have been adopted by them in the past. We know how nearly fatal their system of peaceful penetration was both to this country and to the Empire. I feel that the powers conferred by this Bill would be a distinct step forward towards securing economic freedom. It is, to my mind, essential for the proper development of our industries, and I personally have not the slightest hesitancy in recommending this Bill to the favourable consideration of the House

I beg to move to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."

If what my right hon. Friend has said is true, it is the most lamentable exhibition of the inefficiency of our manufacturers in Great Britain. It is not true. When he speaks of the control of these non-ferrous metals, does he mean to tell the House that the biggest of them, copper, was ever under the control of Germany? Never! The control of the copper market has been where, the biggest bulk of copper is created-in America. I am speaking with more knowledge than my right hon. Friend, for I have been connected with a copper manufacturing company for fifteen years. Every month when we considered the copper position, the trouble was with what America was doing. America has 55 per cent. of the copper output. Do you suppose that America is going to let the control of the copper market go to Germany? Ask the hon. Baronet beside me (Sir C. Henry). He knows. Always if the price went down the Amalgamated Company shut down some of their mines; if it went up, they opened them. The whole control of the copper market was in America and what America was going to do was always the trouble. With regard' to nickel, if this country allowed anybody to get control of it, or if France allowed anybody to get control of it, who was to blame? France and Canada have the whole of the nickel. The New Caledonian mines produce the metal. Who controls it? If France was foolish to let anyone else control it, she ought to be blamed; and if Canada did it, she ought to be blamed. As a matter of fact, it was nothing of the kind. It is quite true that the Germans did have a certain amount of the control of the spelter market. Why? The mineral came from her own colonies.

Yes; and you in England were not clever enough to deal with the concentrates. The Germans were. Because you are jealous of them you say that they controlled the market. They did nothing of the kind. If they controlled the market, it was done with your eyes open. So far as the principal metal is concerned, it is false to say that the Germans controlled the market. So much for that. The whole of the arguments of the President of the Board of Trade fails because his premises are unsound. When he makes an appeal by saying that the Germans are doing this and doing that, it is really admitting what a lot of fools we are. Really it is nothing of the kind. Why is this Bill brought in? Because you want to get control of the markets. You have got that. You and your Allies have complete control. Canada and France have control of nickel, America and Japan have control of copper, while India has control of wolfram ore, which is tungsten. Where is the trouble? Let me ask why is this measure brought in now? What is the necessity for it? Ever since September. 1914, when you made these metals contraband of war and ever since you adopted the policy, which I was fortunate enough to suggest to you, of controlling the metal market, you have had complete control of every metal except tin. What is the use of your granting a man a licence now? It is no use at all. If you give me a licence to-morrow, I cannot deal in any of them. I cannot buy any or sell any. You have got it all. You have complete control. Between now and the end of the War see what you can do. I do not believe you can do much, because you are not clever enough. This then is a measure which is meant to come in after the War is finished. It is that or nothing. Do you suppose that anyone would come to you for a licence to-day? What would be the use of it to him? He could not buy copper, lead, or anything, because you have it all.

9.0 P.M.

Let us see what the genesis of this business is. There was a Committee appointed. I have always observed in this House that when the Government wants to do something it generally appoints a Committee that is quite favourable to what it wants to do. The occasions on which they appoint an independent Committee are very rare indeed. They appointed a Committee of the trade—of the producers. There was the chairman of the Munt Metal Company, the chairman of the Rio Tinto Company (who has more intercourse with Germany than any man in London), there was a member of Vivian Younger, and the chairman of the Aluminium Company, all interested in a little corner, and all interested to destroy anyone who is strong enough to beat them in this market. I am told—and probably you know, because you have a good many measures on hand—that there is a syndicate ready to put up the money to invest in mines and get a big control in this country of these various things; but they will not move until the Germans are kept out for five years. It may not be true, but you maybe surethere is something in it. At all events, this is not a bonâ fide measure. It is either a measure of intense fear or jealousy; or it is something worse than that. What are the provisions of the Bill? Shortly, they amount to this: No licence will be granted to anyone who is a partner or a manager, or anyone using any influence in that business who has been at any time a German subject. It goes beyond that. It says that if any company should have, at any time, one-fifth of its capital directly or indiretly belonging to a German or a German syndicate or a German company the licence is vitiated. How are you to tell that? I will give the register of all the biggest companies in Great Britain, and I will defy you to tell who are the shareholders. I will assume that I am one of these companies which get a licence, and a German, through a Swede or through a Londoner, obtains a big holding in my company. How am I to know? I can only know if someone breaks faith with the German or the Norwegian or the Londoner and discloses who are the real owners. Then my licence is cancelled. But it is a great deal worse the other way. I think it is my interest to acquire a holding in a mine, say, in Nor-way, and I obtain shares in it. If some German applies, through a Swede, to this Norwegian company and gets a holding in it sufficient to meet this Clause, how am I to know? I defy myself to know. There is a nominee, and I cannot possibly trace him. The moment it is discovered, some man may blackmail me. Someone may disclose some facts not known to the company, not known to anyone but himself and the German, and yet my licence goes. What a preposterious proposition!

Which is the Clause that gives that power? How is the licence gone immediately that is discovered? I thought it was merely a matter of passing under review.

Then it only gives power for the question of the licence being reconsidered. It does not take the licence away.

I do not know that. It says here:

"That the company, firm, or individual is or was at any time after the 12th day of November, 1917, interested, directly or indirectly, to the extent of one-fifth or more of the capital in any undertaking, whether or not in the United Kingdom, engaged in business of a kind to which this Act applies, in which enemies are also interested, directly or indirectly, to the extent of one-fifth or more of the capital."

The question then arises whether the licence should be granted or continued. It does not automatically take it away.

They have the power of cancelling it. I hope we are not to lay ourselves under the feet of any Department without an Act of Parliament guiding its action. It means, if this is discovered against me without my knowledge at all, they can cancel my licence. That is enough for me.

We come now to the question of naturalisation. This is the most vicious Bill I ever saw, and I have seen a good many. It destroys the effect of all naturalisation of any German subject. I have here a naturalisation certificate which it is intended to destroy. Hon. Members may not have seen one of these certificates. Here is one. It is very interesting. It relates to a gentleman who was five years in this country before he was naturalised. The certificate which was given to him declares that he is naturalised as a British subject, and that, upon taking the oath of allegiance, which he did, he shall in the United Kingdom be entitled to all political and other rights, powers, and privileges, and be subject to all the obligations to which a natural born British subject is subject in the Union. That is signed by Henry H. Asquith in 1893. Are you going to tear that up? You have gone to war for the sacredness of treaties. You are rightly angry, justly angry with the Germans—I am angry too—but are you going to stain your honour and the honour of this country by tearing up these solemn obligations? If you do, how can you go into the council room when peace is being considered and lay your charges against the Germans, as you will do?

What is the real meaning and effect of this Bill? Is it not an economic boycott? The right hon. Gentleman referred to the Paris Conference. Well, the Paris Conference in some of its propositions must go by the board if ever there is going to be peace at all. What does this Bill mean but an economic boycott? Are you prepared for that? I know we are all angry with Germany, but we shall have difficulty enough in trading with him without the personal feeling of aversion to every German. I do not suppose Germans will be admitted members of the Stock Exchange, or the Coal Exchange, or the Baltic, and so forth. None of us will want to have personal relations with them because we are so disgusted with their methods. But are we going to go into a peace conference and say, "Now that the military war is over, we are going to boycott you Germans for the next five years, and probably longer?" I know that certain gentlemen preach that in this House and outside. They say they will not have anything to do with these men in future. They say, "We will have an economic boycott and have nothing to do with them." You cannot do that, and you know you cannot do it. How can you prejudice your case when you go into the peace conference by that economic boycott? One thing is certain, you will never get America to agree to it. America, after the noble way in which she has helped us, and after the great way in which she has come into this War, will have a very big say in the settlement. This is what President Wilson said:

It is President Wilson's speech in reply to the Pope's proposal. You cannot enforce economic boycott. If you could do so, it would be cutting off your own nose to spite your face. After all, Germany was our best customer before the War. We had to and fro £80,000,000 worth of trade. You have got a good deal of that cut off by a feeling of aversion. Are you going to cut it all off? You can cut off what you think you can spare, but the bulk of it you cannot cut off and at the same time give employment to your own people. We shall want a great amount of trade to give employment to our people and to make money after the War. Whatever the feelings of this House may be, and whatever the feelings of the nation may be, there is one thing very certain, that you cannot and will not have a lasting peace if you have an economic war. I think it was the Foreign Secretary who made a very remarkable speech in this House when he said that at the foundations of all wars, more or less was the economic situation. You may bring about your peace, but if you have a ranking economic boycott it will be the presage to a future war. If you want the peace to last, then for Heaven's sake make it a proper peace. Let there be no such thing as a boycott. In any case, whatever Bill you may pass let it be such that we can hold up our heads and say that we have not stained our honour by disregarding our solemn undertakings to those who have joined us in this country. The case I have referred to is that of a man who came over here when he was a young man, and who has lived ever since in this country. He was educated in this country, his sons have been educated in this country and his son is fighting in the Army to-day. Yet this is the sort of man to whom you will say: "After all you have done, and after all we promised you we now destroy it and set it aside. No longer shall you be able to earn your livelihood in the way you did before." I hope this House will never agree to that. Therefore, I move my Amendment.

Mr. CURRIE rose—

I think the speech to which we have just listened is one of a most extraordinary character. At this time of day—

On a point of Order. I understood the hon. Gentleman was going to second the Amendment.

The Question "No," and, as nobody else rose to second it, I called on the hon. Member.

My hon. Friend proposes to undo the Paris resolutions. I am not altogether surprised. I never suspected him of sympathising with them very much.

The question now before the House is, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

The hon. Member moved an Amendment, and I heard no invitation from the Chair for a seconder.

I paused and looked round. The only Member who rose was the hon. Member for Leith. I asked him whether he proposed to second it, and he said "No." There is no further Motion by any hon. Member.

I was not surprised by my hon. Friend's lack of sympathy with the Paris resolutions. I never suspected him of sympathising very deeply with these resolutions, but he goes on to say that surely we do not want to quarrel. He appears to be afraid that this Bill will prejudice some coming peace conference. When it is about to come he did not say. In fact, he sees no reason why, notwithstanding any incidents of this War, we should not carry on business with Germany just as usual, just as if such an event as the War had never taken place. As to naturalisation certificates, I think his representation of the effect of the Bill is an absolute travesty of the contents of the Bill. I think that that is not putting it too strongly. I read the Bill over. My hon. Friend is quite mistaken if he thinks that other people besides himself do not read Bills before speaking about them. He told us in tones—the blandest possible for him—that Germany was our best customer before the War. On the terms which existed Germany was our worst customer before the War, and unless the War comes to an end very different from that which some hon. Members contemplate, Germany will be our worst customer after the War. Some people still appear to harbour the delusion that because nations buy and sell goods representing a large annual turnover, therefore they are good customers. The terms on which Germany did and sought to do business with us before the War were terms of which one could only say that the more business she succeeded in doing the worse customer she was to us, and the more successful enemy she was. I am amazed that at this time of day any man with my hon. Friend's great commercial experience can be found to stand up and say that Germany was our best customer. The proposal in this Bill is a perfectly legitimate one, to exercise for the future more reasonable control over the position of a key industry than we exercised in times past. I hope that the House will see that the Bill is passed into law as speedily as possible. The language of the hon. Gentleman practically comes to this, that if he meets a tiger in a jungle he thinks it common sense to ask the little animal whether he will have a glass of milk and a biscuit, and he is surprised if a scratch in the face causes some damage. I have listened to a great deal of the argument against the Government Bills this afternoon with no little indignation. Some people do not seem to realise that this country is at War. I trust that the hon. Member's Amendment will meet with the reception which, I think, it deserves.

The hon. Member who has just sat down has been extremely angry with the hon. Gentleman opposite who moved an Amendment which unfortunately did not at that moment find a Seconder, but he has submitted no argument against the very able speech which was made by my hon. Friend. He tells us that we are at war. It was not necessary to tell us that we are at war. I notice that when anyone is very short of arguments he falls back on the old statement that we are at war. Well, we are at war, and I hope that we shall continue the War to a successful conclusion, but because I hope that, and because I yield to no one in my dislike to Germany, I do not want to shut my eyes to what is apparent to anyone who has at any rate ever been in business during a number of years in the City, that such a thing if carried out will do very much more to injure this country than any possible trade which I hope will not take place between Germany and ourselves. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade says that it is to be assumed that the Board of Trade will always act reasonably. I venture to say that it is not to be assumed that the Board of Trade or any other Government Department will always act reasonably. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that it does not at all follow that this Government will be in office during the next five years or whatever time elapses before the Bill expires, because the period of the Bill is not for five years only. It is for five years after the War. It may be for six years or seven years. It is for an unknown period During that time we may have all sorts of changes, all sorts of Governments, all sorts of Presidents of the Board of Trade, and it is not in the interest of this country to allow its trade to be in the control and power of any Minister. I view with great regret and great fear the growing tendency of Ministers to say, "We are to be the arbiters of men of business and of commercial houses in our city. You are not to go to a Court of law. We are not going to pass a law which says that if you do certain things you shall go to a Court of law to be judged. We are going to take the place not only of Parliament and of the King, but of the Law Courts, and you must come to us with your hat in your hand and ask us for a licence, and we may grant you that licence in our discretion." That is an absolutely impossible position, and one which I never will consent to support.

Of course, we know perfectly well that it would be impossible for the Government to get a Bill of this sort through the House if it were not for the fact that we are at war, and what the Government are doing is to bring forward a large number of Bills which they never could get through if the War were not going on, and with the argument of the War, and supported by hon. Members like my hon. Friend behind, who talk about being at war, they bring forward measures which they know well could never become law if there were peace. One would have thought that if it was necessary to prevent Germans from having any dealings in any industry in this country the simple way to do it would be to say, "In the future it shall be unlawful for anyone of enemy birth to have any dealings in such and such a trade." That is all that is necessary, and if that is right—I think it is rather a strong order—that is the way to do it. We do not want everybody in business to produce his books to the Board of Trade. My hon. Friend is in business with some other Englishmen, and he is not to be allowed to carry on ordinary business without going to the Board of Trade and producing his books and asking for a licence and paying a fee. The thing is absolutely unheard of. If it be necessary to stop the Germans or aliens from dealing here in this country, it can be done in a simple Bill, and then it would apply to all Germans and all aliens. I do not know whether the House noticed that the President of the Board of Trade said that they could grant licences in their discretion to these enemy aliens. How do we know that there will not be favouritism? Why should we give the President of the Board of Trade that discretion to grant a licence to an enemy, or why should that discretion be given to anybody who happens by accident to sit on that Front Bench? The Bill is an absurd one; it goes far beyond its nominal objects, and it is one which I hope the House will not pass. My hon. Friend opposite asked how it is possible for any manager or director of a company to know whether certain shares are held by Germans or enemy aliens or not. It seemed to me that below the Gangway there was some little doubt as to whether that statement was correct. May I say of my own knowledge—and I have spent many years in business in the City—that I know there are many people who hold shares in various companies, and those shares are not in their own names, but in the name of nominees, and it is absolutely impos- sible for anyone to tell who really are the owners of the shares in these various companies? As long as you have limited liability companies it is absolutely impossible to ascertain whether Smith or my hon. Friend opposite has bought shares that are for some German or enemy alien who puts them in the name of the person whom he may employ, and it is quite impossible to say that the manager or a director of the company may not unknowingly, or unwittingly, have rendered. himself liable to all these various pains and penalties.

The question of the naturalisation certificate is, of course, an important one. Rightly or wrongly, I myself think that we have given naturalisation certificates to foreigners on much too easy terms. I should like to point out that when I was vice-chairman of the Unionist War Committee, in this year, I took the report of a sub-committee of that body to the Prime Minister, asking him to make alterations in the naturalisation laws, and he promised to give it immediate consideration. That was last February, and I have not heard a single word since. That shows, I think, that at any rate the Prime Minister does not attach such very great importance to these naturalisation laws. There is another point, a very serious one. I suppose peace will come some time or other, and I suppose negotiations will have to be entered into when peace comes about. I suppose some negotiations will turn upon the future commercial relations between the countries which are at present at war. How shall we be, if we tie our hands with a Bill of this sort? What good is this Bill going to do? Let me look at the beginning of the Bill. First of all, it must be remembered that we have been at war for three and a half years, and we have apparently got on fairly well under the able administration of the right hon. Gentleman who was lately Minister of the Munitions Department, and who is now Minister of the Reconstruction Department, and I presume, under his able guidance, that Germans are not going to do very much harm. I do not see how they could do very much harm at the present moment, when the restrictions on enemy trading are so very great. But the very first Clause in this Bill says that nothing is to happen for six months. It cannot be a very urgent matter when nothing is to take place for six months. It cannot be anything very necessary to the carrying on of the War, because nothing is to be done for six months from the passing of the Bill, or whatever it may be. One would have thought that, under ordinary circumstances, if it was necessary for the War it would end with the War, but we find that it is to continue for five years after the War. Why five years? If it is necessary to do this at all, it should be done for all time. I cannot help thinking that this is again an attempt of the Government to have in their hands after the War control of the various industries of the country. We have got it in this Bill, we have got it in the Imports and Exports Bill, which is coming on, and we see indications of it with regard to railways, with regard to coal, and ether matters; and my belief is that this is not a Bill you are bringing in merely because it h desired to stop Germans from doing certain trade here, but that it is part of an important policy that has for its object the control of all the businesses and industries in this country by the Government of the day. That policy I shall certainly do my best to oppose, and I conclude by moving the Amendment, that the Bill be read a second time this day three months.

The hon. Member cannot second the Amendment. He has already exhausted his right.

This Bill seems to have raised an amount of fervour which is rather surprising. Where are the dulcet tones of the right hon. Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury)? They have been cast aside, and we have heard very different notes, played on the heavy organ, about what he is going to do now and in the future, and I wondered whether I was listening to one whom I could question and regard with affection, as my old teacher in this House, to whom I owe a great deal, and who on many occasions, when I first became a Member of this House, taught me something about its procedure. The right hon. Gentleman is full of fire, and I suppose the fire is really directed against the Germans. It must be, because I am quite certain that it would be very unfair to say that he is not as seriously determined as any Member of this House to see that Germans shall not have control of the metals of the world. It would be very un- fair to suggest that he is not in close association with me and others who think with me, and if he could suggest methods as to how this object can be achieved, when we had examined those methods, we would see whether or not they would be effective. He has told us how he would secure the object. He said he would like to pass a short Bill under which all it would be necessary to do would be to say that it should be unlawful for any person, an enemy by birth, to have dealings in these non-ferrous metals. Just let us examine that for a moment because he himself, in another sentence told us, with the fire of indignation, that it was quite impossible to deal, as the Schedule does deal, with the holding of certain shares. He said you will find that a number of persons unwittingly hold shares which are really the property of enemy aliens. Let us accept what the right hon. Gentleman said on both those points, and does he not think that a simple Bill of that kind, providing it should be unlawful for all persons of enemy birth to have any dealings in non-ferrous metals, could be easily got over by having their holdings in somebody else's name. Would such a Bill be really effective and useful? It is quite obvious when you put those two observations together that a considerable amount of thought must be put into a Bill which is going to be effective to destroy the very powerful organisation which is represented by the Metallgesellschaft.

I did not say I recommended a Bill of that sort. What I did say was, if it was necessary to do this, the proper way to do it would be to provide that these matters should be decided by a Court of Law, and not left to the discretion of a Department of the Government, since it is a matter which is not in their province.

We go a long way together. First of all, the right hon. Gentleman agrees that something should be done to take this trade out of German hands, and next he suggests that if it should be done it should be done by passing a Bill making it unlawful for persons of enemy birth to have dealings of the kind. He would prefer to go to the Law Courts, but they have no power unless they have a Bill, and therefore a Bill is necessary. When we come to the question of whether this is really being done by persons of enemy birth, I would call attention to the right hon. Gentleman's own observations on the question of bearer's shares and shares unwittingly held by various persons which illustrates the difficulty there would be in having an effective Bill under the simple procedure he proposes. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire West (Mr. Henderson) does not seem to have given this Bill great consideration. He has overlooked the fact that the President of the Board of Trade has gone a very long way in Clause 1 (2), because he states there that a licence shall be granted unless certain conditions are fulfilled. He gives the right to every natural-born Englishman dealing in these metals the right to a licence, but he says that in certain circumstances the licence shall be open to the discretion of the Board of Trade. Those cases of discretion are these. The first is one which I believe would have the support of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City, and that is that a person who was a German or had become naturalised, and about whom I believe a great many Members and a still larger number of the public have very great misgivings, is not entitled by right as is the natural-born Englishman to obtain a licence, but that on making application he will get the licence if it is perfectly right that he should do so. If you are going to break down the Metalgesellschaft can you ask for less? I think the right hon. Gentleman has gone a long way in saying that in certain cases the licence shall be given as a right.

There are two other criticisms which it is open to us to make. The right hon. Baronet the Member for the City asked what was going to be done during the six months. Rightly or wrongly the President of the Board of Trade has allowed a period of six months during which matters can be investigated and during which it shall not be unlawful for trade to continue. Perhaps the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City is right in thinking that we ought to take out that six months and stiffen up the Bill and make the matter unlawful at once instead of postponing it for six months. I have no doubt that if in Committee an Amendment is moved on those lines it may be possible to consider it. Meantime, as we are making a matter that has hitherto been lawful unlawful, it is not unfair to give some period of time, be in three months or six months, during which an opportunity shall be given to those persons who desire to carry on trade to set their house in order and to see that the trade is in strictly British hands. This is a Bill which is sorely needed, and my only regret is that it was not introduced long ago. I remember a Debate which was started by the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies in January, 1916. It arose out of a matter which we had discussed, not in the Unionist War Committee to which the-right hon. Baronet referred, but in the Unionist Business Committee, and that was the control of metals throughout the Empire, which undoubtedly gave great cause of uneasiness at that time. I remember, too, that the way in which Australia had dealt with the control of spelter was referred to. On that occasion the late President of the Board of Trade said, with a certain amount almost of jealousy, that Australia had been able to deal with it, as we know she did, because of the speed with which they were able to get a Bill through the Dominion Parliament, where they are not so heavily burdened with legislation as we are. If I recollect that Debate—and I think I do—I think there was general agreement throughout the House that the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins) had called attention to a matter of great importance and of general interest and on which it was necessary to take action, and on which action had been postponed and allayed for too long a period. But because it has been delayed, do not let us delay it any longer. The hon. Member for Aberdeen West asks why have the Germans got hold of this trade, and says it is because we have been fools in the past. Are we to be fools in the future?

I said that they had got control of spelter because they had means of dealing with it which our chemists had not discovered.

"Fools we were" was the expression used, and is it to be said fools we always will be? Really it is time to cease to be fools, and surely we can endeavour to take some steps to free ourselves from the control which we regret we have lost and which we never ought to have lost and which we ought to try to regain as speedily as possible. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City said that he took a report of a committee of the Unionist War Committee some months back to the Prime Minister, recommending that we should deal with our naturalisation laws. The purport of it was that there should be power to denaturalise. He said that nothing more had been heard of it, but in the course of the last few weeks the Home Secretary has told us on two occasions that the reason why a Bill has not yet been introduced is because we have to have the assent of the Colonies, and he assured us that within a very short time a Bill is going to be introduced to deal with this matter. I do not think it is quite fair to the Prime Minister, or those who have the matter in hand, to say that this question of naturalisation has slept altogether, and that nothing has been done. This Bill is really misunderstood. It gives a right to those who ought to have the right to trade to continue their trade, and it lays down certain conditions which entitle the Board of Trade to review the position and status of those engaged in the trade.

That is a negative. It says that

"In the case of a company, firm or individual…"

I cannot give way again. I have heard the point of the hon. Member: "No such licence shall be granted unless the Board of Trade are of opinion …" Very well. It therefore gives a right in certain cases where there is English trade—but "no licence shall be granted in other cases unless the Board of Trade are of opinion," and so on. What Member of this House would be satisfied to contest the discretion of the Board of Trade if they find that the conditions laid down in the Schedule have been properly complied with? Under these circumstances tins is the very least that is required. Objection is taken to the fact that the Bill is to give power to extend beyond the present War. In my view that is absolutely necessary, and for this reason alone that if that enormously powerful organisation, the Metallgesellschaft, is ready to spring back into its activities after the War was over, unless you have taken sufficient safeguard for the trade of this country, the maintenance of it in English hands, so to prevent our losing it again, that you at once, as soon as the War is over, leave those who are trading in these non-ferrous metals immediately to meet the enormous and powerful competition of the Metallgesellschaft. In our own interests it is absolutely necessary that there should be some sort of control for the period after the War, and, in my judgment, five years is not too long. I ventured to intervene in this Debate for this reason: During the past two years I have had the opportunity in one position or another, and in different parts, of seeing something of the trade of this country. For a long time I have felt that a Bill, even a more powerful Bill, was absolutely necessary if we were to have any sort of control over the business of the metals in this Empire. It is my duty at the present time to see something of trade—of foreign and German trade—in all quarters of the globe. If I may respectfully say it to the House, the experience I have gained suggested to me, when this Bill was introduced by the President of the Board of Trade, that it not only is needed, but might well be strengthened, if we are really going to do what we ought to do, and that is to conserve our trading resources for the British people, for our own selves, to whom it rightly belongs.

In common with, I think, almost all the Members of this House, I listened to-night with the greatest possible satisfaction to the opening speech of the President of the Board of Trade. His explanation of the aims of the Government was in such clear and unmistakable language that one could not help feeling the force of his arguments, and also, in the main, agree with his conclusions. Those of us, therefore, who still object to this Bill in its present form must not be taken—at all events I must not be taken—as objecting to almost anything which the President of the Board of Trade said, or to the object which he avowed in his speech; but I certainly am bound entirely to disagree with the means that are adopted, or proposed to be adopted, for the purpose of carrying those views into effect, and which means we find embodied in the Bill. I yield to no one in my detestation for the fully-proved German trade trickery, which undoubtedly was going on for a great many years prior to the outbreak of the War. There was scarcely a business office of any size in the whole of the United Kingdom—in fact, throughout the civilised world—where there was not a German spy. It was his business; and investigation into the facts have proved this to be the case, and I have no doubt it is very largely upon these grounds that this Bill has been brought in. It has been proved that these spies were so placed that they reported regularly to Berlin and received their extra remuneration. Beyond the pay, upon which they could not possibly have lived, and which they were supposed to get in the offices in this country, they received extra pay in proportion to their traitorous trickery.

We also object to, and are fully satisfied with the existence of, many other illicit and traitorous means of obtaining information, some of which, as Members of the House know very well were carried out by these forty-seven reinsurance companies which the Germans established for the purpose of getting hold of the names of the purchasers of these metals and other goods and their destination and prices, in order to try and steal the business. Whilst all this is true, and whilst it is admitted to-day to be very necessary that something should be done, and done quickly, and of an effective character, to put a stop to this kind of thing, whilst it has been determined by a responsible body who have investigated the subject that never again shall the Germans be allowed, after this War is over, to restart this trade war by the illicit means that I have mentioned, yet the question now arises as to whether this Bill would really do any good to trade in the direction indicated, and whether, matter of form, it would not do a great deal of harm in several other very important directions. My first objection to this Bill in its present form is that, while it applies to one business—the metal business—only, I have no doubt that it is intended to take it as an example for this House to follow, and that we shall be invited next week or a month or two later, if the Bill is accepted, to apply exactly the same principles to other businesses. In fact, this Bill is the first of a series of measures of this description, it will be used as a model, and in the course of a few months this House will be asked to apply it to various other commodities. Secondly, I object to the Bill because, under the guise of stopping enemy encroachments after the War, the real effect will be to put the whole trade in metals under the bureaucratic leading strings of a Government Department. Admitted German trickery, admitted it is necessary to stop their tricks, I ask myself is it also necessary to impose at the same time upon the whole trade of the country bureaucratic control, and to give these extensive powers, not merely over Germans and foreigners generally who may be transacting business in metals in our country, but to give powers which may be used oppressively by a public Department over every Britisher carrying on business of this kind.

10.0 P.M.

If the House will refer to Clause 1, Subsection 2, it will be found that the President of the Board of Trade may, if he likes, give a licence to deal in metals to one of our present enemies. He also may refuse it. But I, for one, object to giving him power to grant such a licence to such a person. It seems to me one effect of this Bill will be to make it necessary for every Englishman to go to the Board of Trade for a licence to deal in these metals, and yet at the same time the Department is to have the right to license an enemy in the same way. In this I cannot see we are going any further towards eliminating the enemy evil. Then, again, I find in Clause 5, the Bill is to apply to every kind of transaction in zinc, copper, tin, lead, nickel, aluminium, and any other non-ferrous metals and ores to which the Act may be applied; in fact, the Bill applies to every metal got out of the ground with the exception of iron and iron derivatives, and the President of the Board of Trade, by a stroke of the pen, may include any one of these into the Bill, so that anyone who has any transactions in them will be obliged to get a licence in order to enable him to carry on his business. It has already been pointed out, and I think it is necessary to repeat it, that the Bill is not to come into operation at once, but will come into force in six months. I think the reason for that is fairly evident. If the War does not end in six months, and I am very much afraid it will not, during the continuance of the War the Government only have the absolute right of dealing in these metals exclusively, and therefore obviously the Bill will not be required during the six months in question. But an important point about the Bill is this, that it is to remain operative for five years after the War. I feel I ought to point out that, from the point of view of construction, this Bill seems to be very cunningly devised. For instance, Subsection (1) of Clause 1 says nothing about the enemy or alien at all. Personally, I object to that Section, and I believe if the Bill began with Sub-section (2), which simply deals with the enemy, there would be something to be said for it, as was pointed out with great force by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). If the Bill contained a Clause saying that enemies—those who were our enemy or were born enemies—must come and get a licence—if that were the simple provision of the Bill, one would not have so much to say-about it in the way of opposition; but the fact that it imposes a bureaucratic restriction upon every Englishman under the guise of getting at the enemy shows that that is not the whole effect of the Bill. I would ask why, for the purpose of carrying out an admittedly good object, such as that indicated by the President of the Board of Trade, it is necessary to put the whole trade in metals—and later or the whole trade in everything else—practically under the control of a bureaucratic Government?

May I also point out that when this Bill becomes law, if it ever does, it will give the officials of this Department certain rights? It will give them the right to go to every licensee and ask him any question they choose; it will give them the right of inspecting his books and to invite the disclosure of any other information they think fit. Only this morning I had a letter from a constituent explaining how the officials of one Department had demanded to know the price of certain band saws manufactured by him. It seems to be preposterous to give such a power to any Jack-in-office or to any subordinate to any Jack-in-office, and the worst of it is that, under the pretext of getting at the enemy, you are giving these officials power to go to manufacturers to demand to know the exact cost of production of particular articles and the price which is being paid for them. What has that to do in any shape or form with eliminating the enemy from our trade? It is simply establishing this bureaucratic control, influence, and power of interference, to which I very strongly object. It will put whole trades under the thumb of Government officials, and I am so afraid, and I believe the commercial community at large to be afraid, that this is the beginning, and a most insidious beginning, because it appeals to the prejudices of one section and at the same time to the reason of large numbers of the people who want to be freed from this German influence and from this German peaceful penetration, from the trickery and humbug that was going on before the War. I say it appeals to them, but in so appealing, if we yield to it and it has the effect of establishing amongst us, which God forbid, this inquisitional bureaucratic control to which I have referred, then I take leave to suggest that it would be, although to some extent perhaps accomplishing the objects that were stated, an unmitigated calamity that such a Bill should become law. I am one of those who take the view that almost all this Government control and interference to which we have been subjected has been a mistake. I have been a member of a Sub-Committee of the Commercial Committee of this House, and we have spent some months upon investigating these subjects, and we have investigated facts and communications that were put before us from numerous associations and bodies. I myself have attended a very considerable number of meetings of a most important character both in London and Liverpool—I was at one in Liverpool last week—and I beg to assure the House that the whole trading community views this kind of thing with the greatest possible misgiving. They are not selfish or self-seeking in the resolutions they have been passing against the establishment of this bureaucratic control.

I do not believe that the different trades which have risen and are rising up in arms against it are doing so simply for their own personal bread-and-butter. No; but I have come to the conclusion that there is hardly a business in the country, there is certainly not a business organisation in the country, that does not hate and detest this bureaucratic control, and that does not look upon the establishment of it as tending towards a national calamity simply because they are bonâ fide convinced that it is a bad way of conducting business, that it generally has the effect of enhancing prices, and that where any attempt is made to mitigate the difficulty of prices it invariably has the effect of preventing supplies. I apologise for detaining the House at such length, but I could give instances with regard to tin, zinc, and a number of metals covered by this Bill, of what Government interference has done already in the way of enhancing prices, preventing supplies, and causing all those difficulties which we so much deplore. I think, however, it would be wasting the time of the House very largely, and all I can say is that if the Members of this House will be good enough to read the Report and the Appendices which the commercial Committee has prepared upon these subjects a number of them will have their eyes opened to the dangers with which we are now confronted. I take all the stronger view on this subject to-night because of the difficulties which surround the issue which is before the House. God forbid that I, or anyone who takes the view that this Bill is not the right way to meet the difficulty, should be charged in any way—it would be a vile calumny if we were—with any sympathy with German trade, German trickery, or German dealing of any description. That is not it. Some of us have been brought up to business. Some of us know what commerce has meant both in this country and in other parts of the world, some of us have had a longer experience than we care to remember, and we do honestly feel that this is not the right way to meet this difficulty or solve this problem. We feel that this House would do well to pause before it finally commits itself to this for the alleged purpose of trying to mitigate German competition, because if it allowed itself to tie up any trade in bureaucratic leading strings, either for five years or for any further period, I say this House would make a great mistake

The speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Warwick (Sir E. Pollock) had the merit of bringing the discussion back to the Bill and to the object of the Bill after it had wandered a good deal to wider issues. I do not say the wider issues were not connected with the Bill, but the discussion of them to some extent prevented the focussing of criticism on the measure before us. The hon. Member who has just sat down expressed, of course, what I believe is the universal feeling in the commercial community throughout the country—that continuous interference with trade after the War will be a most calamitous thing, however good the intentions of the Department concerned. I think that indication of feeling is of great importance, and that the President of the Board of Trade will do well to take notice of it, but we are discussing to-night this particular Bill, and although the hon. and learned Member for Warwick did bring the discussion to bear on the Bill, I fear he did not promote a comprehension of the operation of the measure. For instance, when he replied to my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson), he quoted the hon. Member as having said that we were fools in the past, and the hon. and learned Member for Warwick commented on that by saying, "Let us not be fools in the future." It may be quite possible that we may be fools if we pass this Bil. What my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire was pointing out was that the President of the Board of Trade was wrong in saying that the Germans control all the non-ferrous metals. He pointed out that they did not control copper, and that they did not, and could not, control nickel. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nor tin!"] He further pointed out that if the Germans had any special control over spelter it was because the business men of this country had not properly taken up and developed spelter. That is to say, the Germans were able to deal with the concentrates and to do the scientific work, while our business on the scientific side was so far short that it went into German hands in that way. That is the kind of foolishness to which my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire referred, and when the hon. and learned Member for Warwick says "Do not let us be fools in the future" what relevance has that to the matter?

This Bill will do nothing to cause the industry of this country to be properly developed with regard to spelter. This Bill makes no provision for guarding against precisely the laxities of the past. What does this Bill do? I venture to say I was disappointed in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill, especially on the ground that he in no sense explained his Bill at all. He used a few general phrases, in which he took it for granted that everybody knew that the Germans were in control of certain aspects or sides of the metal trade. It never occurred to him to tell us what control means. It is extremely obvious that the word "control" in this connection, if analysed, points in some very different directions, and if you do analyse and understand it and turn to this Bill, you are unable to find any possibility by which this Bill would affect anything that "control" means. This is not a Bill directed against the German control of non-ferrous metals. To begin with, I think the House is at a very great disadvantage in that it is not supplied with the Report of the Committee. It may be that the right hon. Gentleman has good reasons for saying that it would not be in the public interest to publish that Report. If it is not in the public interest that the Legislature should have the Report before it, it surely is in the public interest that you should not ask the Legislature to legislate blindfold. I have great respect for the business faculty of the right hon. Gentleman—I will say a sincere respect, and I am sure the House generally shares that feeling—but we cannot let the right hon. Gentleman decide for us as to what is the proper economic inference to be drawn from that Report. A Report of that kind, so far as we can gather, is one the true deductions from which can best be drawn, not merely by the gentlemen who drew it up, who are concerned in certain branches of trade, and who are thinking of the rivalries in their own market. The proper deductions to be drawn from such a Report, I would suggest, should be drawn by men of some economic knowledge.

At all events, we in this House are surely entitled to know the information on which you proceed. The right hon. Gentleman says that to publish it would be to give valuable information to the enemy. To give the enemy information about what he has been doing himself! I was unable to follow that point of the right hon. Gentleman's speech. The thing he is guarding against is the operations of the Germans. Well, do they not know about their own operations? I hope the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me for saying that that justification for not publishing the Report is extraordinarily inadequate. There is a rather frivolous aspect. If, for any particular reasons, he cannot publish the Report, then I think the proper sequel should be the recognition on the part of the right hon. Gentleman that he ought not to go on with his Bill. I certainly protest against being put into the position of being asked to assent to, or to pass, a measure of a very extraordinary kind—an unprecedented measure, I think—in that we are to be asked to support that measure on grounds that indicate the application of some new economic theory as regards fiscal interference, and to be asked to do all this without one jot of the information upon which alone the House can found a rational opinion in the matter. I only desire to make my protest. It is impossible, it seems to me, to discuss the Bill at any great length in the total absence of information.

Let me point out a few of the things that seem to me to discredit the claim that this Bill can possibly do what it avowedly sets out to do. In the first place, it is, I believe, an open secret that this measure is directed against one particular firm. That is a very invidious state of things. The wording of the Schedule explains to those who know anything about the metal trades that a certain firm is being aimed at, and that the object is to give the Board of Trade power to prevent a certain firm having a licence to trade. Let us suppose that the firm, or, let us say there are other firms, who would come under the exclusions indicated in the Schedule. Let us suppose there are such firms. The first question which arises is, have those firms in the past so traded as to divert metals from England? That is what we are really after. All that language about control obscures the fact that what you really want in this country is to get the metals in. In the first place, is it suggested that this firm or these firms have diverted metals from England during the War? I do not think it is suggested, and if I recollect rightly, the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House actually gave the particular firm of which I am thinking high credit for the great assistance it gave in bringing metals to this country. If that firm you are aiming at has in time of war so used its influences and its trading connections as to bring you metals, what is it you are afraid of in time of peace? I can understand that other firms in the trade mar be afraid of that firm.

The right hon. Gentleman told us that his object is national, but how is the nation going to suffer in peace time if in war time you gain from the particular range of operations of the firm? He used a few phrases about control, and on these grounds we are asked to pass a measure giving power to the Board of Trade which I say, even with the unchangeable respect I always bear to that great Department, are unprecedented in character, and would in any case be wielded by the Minister for the time being who may be a person of the most extraordinary economic opinions, of which this House has ever heard. This firm that you want to knock out in time of peace goes into trade. Some of its directors were once Germans, but they may be loyal British subjects, and have sons fighting in the Army, and they may have done a great deal to get the metals into this country. What do you do by this Bill to overthrow the influence that the hon. Member for Warwick is so much afraid of, the great influence of the Metallgesellschaft of Frankfort? Control means one of two things: You would like to get the virtual ownership of the sources of metal production within the British Empire on the one hand, or on the other hand through great companies of capital you might obtain control by cornering the supply in a particular metal in the markets of the world. This Bill can have no possible effect on this form of control. As regards the sources of production, you can by a totally different measure impose any restrictions you please as regards the output of any part of the Empire under the control of this legislature, and your Dominions will be equally willing to do the same. [An HON. MEMBER: "How?"] In any way they please. They can enact that their raw materials shall not be allowed to go in one direction or the other.

What I wish to point out is that in peace time any measure of this kind will be useless. The right hon. Gentleman does not appear to have gone very deeply into economics. You might enact that none of the ores produced in Australia should be allowed to go to a German destination, and surely that would be the completest prevention of German control. But even then you could not prevent them going to another country which could sell them to Germany. In that case the right hon. Gentleman would not attain his object. How much more is he likely to fail when he is directing his efforts at one British firm only in the interests of the British rivals of that firm. This Bill will do nothing to prevent the influence of the Metallgesellschaft of Frankfort. If the control of which the right hon. Gentleman is afraid is a capitalistic control, if it be true, as the hon. and learned Member said, that this company had an enormous capitalistic influence, this Bill will not prevent it. If they were able to corner the metals in the main markets of the world before, this Bill will not in the least prevent the cornering of metals again. The only two kinds of control that I am able to conceive from the very scanty suggestion which the right hon. Gentleman offered will not in any way be effected by the Bill. It simply comes to this, that we are having one more instance of the kind of legislation of which I am afraid that we have had too much lately, legislation directed against persons, motived by prejudice, or, let us say, by fear—I have no desire to deny that there may be fear—but not guided by judgment. The very things that are feared are not guarded against. The Bill can only operate in a way that will satisfy a man in the trade of very narrow views, who has never thought out the economic problems, who is apparently incapable of realising the very problems he is handling, and who hopes by knocking out one trade rival who happens to have a German connection that he has made an end of what he calls German control. It is not in that way that we shall eliminate German control from anything.

I frankly confess, if I believed that by this or any other measure you could really practically secure the control of the metals of the world in any rational sense of the term—already, I think, the London Metal Market was in a sense the most important general metal market in the world, because as the result of our own trade conditions we were a great trade centre, and I do not think it is pretended that there was any more handling of metals in any of the German markets than here—if I believed that any measure we could introduce would establish and broaden our control over these things, I would support it, because I should think it was of great economic importance; but this measure not only could not do it, but it would not even move in that direction. It is a measure unworthy of the dignity of this legislature. If its punitive effect, which undoubtedly it has—nothing is more obvious in the drafting of that Schedule—is simply to be directed against one concern that has done, not disservice, but great service, by the admission, I understand, of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, then it will do more: it will cast a positive discredit on this House. It must be within the recollection of this House that the Leader of the House used to explain to us, and he must have had some support from his followers on the point, that the fiscal system which he advocated would be highly advantageous, in that it would cause foreign capital to be invested in this country. We now seem to have come to a point of view at which the investment of foreign capital in this country is regarded as a national calamity. I would suggest, although I do not want the investment of German capital in this country—on the question of the investment of German capital the right hon. Gentleman was right, though his system would not have the effect of preventing it—that the investment of foreign capital in this country cannot do you any harm. The hon. Member opposite (Mr. W. Rutherford) spoke about the presence of German spies in every office. I have not so low an opinion of the British merchant as to believe that he was gulled by his subordinates as the hon. Gentleman would suggest.

If he was, I do not see how this Bill is going to help him. If all the traders of England are capable of having German spies on their premises, neither this Bill nor any other can save us from the mismanagement of men so heedless in regard to their own affairs. This Bill will not keep out German spies. It will not even keep out Germans from the firms—

My hon. Friend, I gather, had some in his office. I do not know whether it was they who told him that there was one at the Board of Trade. I never heard of it. I only wish, in conclusion, to urge that the very aim of this Bill, the knocking out of the competition of a firm which in the past has had a great American connection and has had connections in America, no doubt with American concerns, the very knocking out of a firm of that sort might be the blinding of the eye by which you can see either if there be anything underhand or dangerous in the world-wide operations of a great German syndicate. Who is likelier to be able to detect those operations: the men who are proud of not knowing German, the men who have such a fear of German spies that they will not employ a clerk who knows German—I understand the hon. Member (Mr. Rutherford) is one of them—

I withdraw that at once. The hon. Member is not afraid of knowledge. Which kind of firm is most likely to be able so to meet those machinations of which we have heard as to secure that the real, practical and physical control shall not pass out of our hands? That is the object we should have in view. If your Bill could make any pretence that we should get more of the metals which we want than we got in the past, if the right hon. Gentleman can plausibly urge that as a ground for supporting his Bill, he might have some claim on our support. He never suggested that we could. One never gathered from the right hon Gentleman's speech that he had thought out how the Bill was going to work at all. He seemed to think that bringing in a few phrases about German control and fighting against it would justify a measure which cannot in any way effect German control, and which will only appear to the world as a small-minded—

Piece of spite against a firm which never did any harm to this country, and which, by the admission of his own colleagues, has rendered it great service in the time of its greatest need.

I am sure that the House will have listened with great interest to what the right hon. Gentleman had to say in view of his experience at the Board of Trade. He dealt with this subject as usual, very ably criticising the proposal before the House, but I found his speech singularly barren of useful suggestions as to how we should deal with this difficulty. So far as I know anything about this business, it is not a question of any one firm or any dozen firms; it is a question of the national safety. The right hon. Gentleman was thoroughly entitled to ask—and I will make an attempt to give some sort of an answer to his question—how in any way this Bill will promote national safety in respect of the control or the development of essential raw materials. I think we may pass over some remarks of my hon. Friend behind me and the right hon. Baronet opposite about the control of Jacks in office and bureaucratic Departments and things of that kind. I have a good deal of sympathy with what the right hon. Baronet said and I know in saying a good deal he represents a very large view of the commercial community. I think the same as he does, that the kind of control which has been forced upon us during the War is not applicable to the conditions of peace.

Because we happen to be at war. The criticism of the right hon. Gentleman was substantially to this effect, that he did not know what was meant by control; my right hon. Friend had not defined it, but anyhow, he could not see that this Bill would lead to an increased development of these essential materials or would in any way conduce to them being placed at our disposal. What is the kind of control which we had experienced? The hon. Member (Mr. Henderson) made reference to various commodities and I take his commodities. Let us see whether the system against which this Bill is aimed restricted our supplies and whether in any way a system of this kind in future would be more likely to lead to their being forthcoming. That will be a fair answer to the hon. Member if I can answer both satisfactorily. Let us take the case of spelter.

Yes; you said Germany controlled spelter here and was not able to smelt it; but it was false to say that she controlled the spelter market. What was the position, before the War, in spelter? Our annual requirements were about 200,000 tons, and we managed to produce at home, I quite agree, by methods vastly inferior to those adopted by the Germans in some directions, 60,000 tons. Germany produced 283,000 tons, and the Belgian companies, largely under the control of the German companies, produced over 200,000 tons. As a matter of fact, we were substantially dependant upon Germany and German-controlled companies for two-thirds of the spelter that we want in this country.

Some of that, of course, was owned by the Australian Zinc Corporation which at that time was dominated by the Metallgesellschaft, but the Australian company got rid of that control and it is now being developed under Australian organisation. What was the effect of this control upon supplies in this country? That is the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman. This Australian concentrate was divided between the Belgian and the German smelters, and the result is that we have not developed in this country a system of smelting which was applicable to this zinc sulphide material—

Because the control of the supplies of the raw material were in the hands of the Metallgesellschaft. The result was that these supplies of raw material were not diverted in this country, and smelters were not set up in this country to smelt that particular kind of ore, and we found ourselves without smelting capacity. Why had we not the smelting capacity? Because the Metallgesellschaft took good care that we did not get the stuff to smelt. The right hon. Gentleman laughs. We smelted 60,000 tons, but it was not this kind of zinc ore It was a different kind of ore, and it was an entirely different process of smelting. The great deposits of the world of this kind of zinc ore were in the control of this German corporation, who took good tare that we did not get it. That was the reason why we were short when the War broke out.

I am well aware of that. The result of this control was that we had not the raw material or the capacity to smelt it in this country. What we are aiming at is that if we are ever in a like danger again we should be in a better position to meet it. That is the first point. That this control did, in fact, prevent in the case of spelter our being able to produce the material for our war needs or our having the raw material in this country, there is no doubt.

The next metal that was mentioned was lead. How did this control by this corporation prevent our having supplies of lead? Hon. Members may be interested to see what sort of body it is. Here is the scheme of the Metallgesellschaft which I got from tine American Federal Trade Commission this year. This plan shows the Metallgeselischaft and its daughter companies and organisations. If any hon. Member thinks of opposing this Bill he should possess himself of a copy of this document, and he would see what it is we are up against. He would see it was not anypressure of economic theory, but the most gigantic monopoly in the world. What we want to do by this Bill is to create some competition. Let me come back to the case of lead. In 1896 there were certain companies that endeavoured to set up lead smelting works in this country. They were unable to get sufficient raw material at the right time because the Metallgesellschaft managed to get control of the chief Spanish and Australian raw material. By financing the producers they got control of the material. What was the effect upon the price of lead? This vast organisation had the right to control the raw material. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said that if you had competition the control of prices would be regulated by the laws of supply and demand. This great corporation practically controlled the supply and competition became physically an impossibility. I admire their financial and commercial enterprise, but it was a great national danger. Now the price of lead in 1910 was £13 3s. a ton; in 1911 it was £14 3s, 9d.; in 1912, £18 4s. 3d.; in 1913, £18 16s. 2d.; and in 1914, £18 11s. 2d. The price of the commodity, without diminishing the production, had gone up £5 a ton in four years. The reason was that this company controlled by its financial operations the governing interest in the smelters, as well as the owners of the raw material, and they diverted it to any part of the world they liked. The result was that when we found ourselves confronted with the War, in the absence of any effective competition, we found ourselves for two years in a most perilous condition because we had not anything like a sufficient quantity. The misfortunes of the scale of these operations passed far beyond anything which anyone would suspect. Taking the case of lead, I will give you a few illustrations of the trades which, to my knowledge, were penalised. This question of lead affects every trade connected with the manufacture of locomotives and engines of every sort. The whole of the linoleum and floorcloth industry depends for some of its processes upon lead. So does the pottery industry, paper-making, glazing, printers' ink trade, commercial rubber, colour, electric lighting, and the mending of our ordinary household boilers. In all these various trades we found not only were our war supplies in jeopardy, but even the very existence of a number of these important trades, which are essential to the daily conduct of ordinary life, were in jeopardy because we in this country had allowed this great corporation to acquire a monopoly. How are we to bring into being an effective competition? The right hon. Baronet had a panacea. It was an extraordinary proposal about prohibiting anybody of German birth from trading at all. There is no question of this being an economic attack at all, for unless we can secure the bringing into existence of some effective competition we shall suffer from their economic attack. We have suffered from that before, and we may suffer from it again in time to come, if they have the power that they had in times past. What we seek to do is to bring into being some measure of effective competition. Does the hon. Member object to that? Does he object to competition?

I have not found any hon. or right hon. Member who, whilst saying that this Bill will not do, has brought forward any single suggestion how it can be done otherwise.

I interjected just now that we could not be expected to bring up a scheme. My right hon. Friend said that he had not read the Report. That was the very reason for which I appointed a Committee.

As a matter of fact, the right hon. Gentleman referred to this subject on the 10th January, 1916, and he will see, if he looks at what he said, that he almost suggested this Bill himself. The right hon. Gentleman said:

"What we have a right to demand is that in the recuperation of Germany we should allow nothing to be done which would make either Italy, France, Russia, or Great Britain suffer. How far is that possible? I believe it is only possible by our making it clear that when peace is to be signed we cannot permit on the conclusion of this War the outbreak of another economic war which Germany is to wage against her neighbours."

Then, after referring to commercial development and to the number of articles in German hands, he goes on to say:

"This is more than a mere matter of competing with Germany. It ought to be part of our national organisation. There should be no essential article, either for the arts of peace or for the arts of war, upon which we cannot within the Empire lay our hands."

Then, after a reference to the Colonial Governments and the expeditious manner in which they passed Bills, he went on to say:

"At any rate, we must see to it that, having ended this War victoriously, we do not give Germany a chance of reconstructing her commercial position."

What we are trying to do by this Bill is not to give Germany a chance of having, by our neglect, this great monopoly. What does the right hon. Gentleman suggest?

What do we suggest? We suggest that some authority—the authority suggested is the Board of Trade—shall be entitled in the case of an alien to require evidence that it is expedient that he should have a licence. The terms of this Bill are intended to apply to a great competitive organisation, such as we have suffered from. For a long time we had not the material for munitions, and what we suggest is that we should have some authority entrusted with the care of all these matters.

If that is good enough for the hon. Gentleman I have no reply. We suffered in the early days of this War from a shortage of munitions mainly through this monopoly. There is no doubt about that and we sacrificed the lives of scores of thousands of our men. We say that the only chance of bringing into the field any competition is for some authority to have power in the case of enemy subjects to say whether they shall have licence to carry on this trade and to impose the necessity of making application and to give that authority power to say whether it is expedient to grant a licence. It follows from that, if you take power to make an application necessary to carry on business in the interests of a monopoly which jeopardises our national existence that there should be power to refuse the licence. The Bill gives power to people to come in and start legitimate trade in opposition to this organisation. I know that the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, who is connected with the Foreign Trade Branch, will support me in saying that it is practically impossible for any organisation to come into existence successfully to compete with this organisation, unless some authority, the Board of Trade or otherwise, has power to say in the national interest, a particular party shall not trade with the interests of this organisation to which I have referred. That as what the Bill is intended to achieve. It gives power to the Board of Trade to examine the bona fides of the applicant. It does not restrict competition, but would promote it. The hon. Member for Liverpool is wrong—the true-born Englishman does not have to apply for a licence at all. He can trade in any metal he likes without any licence whatever. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]

The Board of Trade has no power to refuse him a licence. [An HON. MEMBER: "But he has to get a licence."] There is no penalty on the true-born Englishman. All he is asked to do is to put up with a certain amount of inconvenience in order that we may have the power to deal with those who want to fasten this kind of thing upon us to the peril of our national existence. I know that during the early days of the munitions supply we suffered from this thing for eighteen months, and we were everlastingly endeavouring to escape from the toils of this monopoly, and I cannot understand how anyone can suggest that we should not take action. I believe that the Bill before the House suggests a method. I know it can be modified, and I think it might be modified in various directions quite well, but I am satisfied that the Bill suggests a practical way of dealing with this difficulty, and I sincerely hope the House will give it a Second Reading.

Mr. HOLT rose— It being Eleven of the Clock, the Debate stood adjourned. Debate to be resumed To-morrow. The remaining Orders were read, and postponed. Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn." Question put, and agreed to. Adjourned accordingly at One minute after Eleven o'clock.