House of Commons
Wednesday, December 5, 1917
Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865
Copy presented of four Orders in Council, dated 16th November, 1917, approving Memorials of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Copyright Act, 1911
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 16th November, 1917, applying the Order in Council of 24th June, 1912, as to Copyright to the French Morocco Protectorate [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Naval Prize Act, 1864, and Prize Courts Act, 1894
Copy presented of Provisional Order in Council, dated 16th November, 1917, amending Item 48 of Appendix B to the Prize Court Rules, 1914, in force under the Order in Council of the 17th September, 1914, and amending Orders [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Ministry of Food
Copies presented of Potatoes Order, 1917, General Licence (two), Damaged Grain, Seed, and Pulse (Prices) Order, 1917, and Dredge Corn Order, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Papers laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:
1. Public Records (Supreme Court of Judicature),—Copy of Schedule containing a list and particulars of classes of Documents existing or accruing in the Central Office, and District Registries of the Supreme Court of Judicature which are not considered of sufficient public value to justify their preservation in the Public Record Office [by Act];
2. Supreme Court (Rules),—Copy of Rules, dated 3rd December, 1917, made by the Lord Chancellor, for the Amendment of the Supreme Court Funds Rules, 1915, entitled the Supreme Court Funds Rules, 1917 [by Act].
Oral Answers to Questions
War
India
Royal Indian Marine
asked the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the fact that in the vote of thanks to the Services given in this House, no mention was made of the Royal Indian Marine; and whether, considering the services rendered by the Royal Indian Marine throughout the War, he will say what action he proposes to take in the matter?
With regard to the absence of a reference to the Royal Indian Marine by name in the recent vote of thanks, the Secretary of State for India desires to associate himself with the remarks made by my right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty on 21st November in reply to a similar question regarding the Royal Marines. Part of the Royal Indian Marine was taken over, as the Statute provides, by the Royal Navy shortly after the outbreak of war. Other members of the Service have done admirable work in conjunction with His Majesty's land forces and in the dockyards and marine establishments in India. His Majesty's Government appreciate fully the services rendered in these various directions.
Disturbances in Behar
asked the Secretary of State for India if he can give the House any information regarding the recent disturbances in Behar?
The disturbances to which the hon. Member refers were of a local character, being confined to parts of the Shahabad district, and of the neighbouring districts of Patna and Gaza, and arose out of disagreements between Hindus and Mahomedans about the celebration by the latter of the Bakr-Id festival. At this festival it is customary to sacrifice kine and other animals. Riots occurred in several villages, in the course of which there was some destruction and pillaging of property and loss of life and conflicts with the civil police. To restore normal conditions it was found necessary to patrol the disturbed area by a considerable force of military police and Regular troops. The Viceroy reported on 20th October that since the 14th of that month no disturbances had taken place, and that the troops were being gradually withdrawn.
Cotton Committee
asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House any information regarding the objects for which the Cotton Committee was appointed and the names of the members thereof, and can he say whether securing for the Indian cultivator an adequate price for the longer-stapled cotton when harvested is one of the objects in view?
The Committee has been appointed to consider the possibility of increasing the production of long-stapled cotton in India, and to submit recommendations as to the staff and organisation necessary for that purpose. Special attention will be given to the question of securing to the cultivator the higher prices which superior cotton should command by improvements in the system of marketing, and by the prevention of adulteration and mixing. Mr. MacKenna, the Agricultural Adviser to the Government of India, is President, the members being Mr. Hodgkinson and Mr. Wadia, who represent the British and India manufacturers, Mr. Henderson and Professor Roberts, agricultural officers, and Mr. Ashton, an irrigation officer.
Indian Bishops
asked the Secretary of State for India whether such jurisdiction as the Archbishop of Canterbury exercises over bishops in India excludes such jurisdiction as the Government of India exercises over such prelates, in consideration of the fact that they are in receipt of salaries paid from the Indian Exchequer?
Indian bishops enter upon their sees and perform the duties thereof by virtue of appointment by the Crown, and the letters patent appointing a bishop confer on the Government of India no authority over him as such.
Secretary of State (Absence)
asked the Prime Minister, with reference to the provision in the Government of India Act, 1915, that the Secretary of State shall superintend, direct, and control all acts, operations, and concerns which relate to the Government of India, if he will state on what Statute or other warrant of law the Cabinet has undertaken as a temporary expedient during the absence of the Secretary of State on his visit to India to decide urgent questions of the first importance?
The action of the Cabinet in this respect is not affected by the presence or absence of the Secretary of State. My hon. Friend is doubtless aware that the Secretary of State for India, like all other Ministers, habitually consults the Cabinet when questions of such importance arise as in his opinion require for their decision the collective authority of the Cabinet. In the absence of the Secretary of State his views will be presented to the Cabinet by Lord Islington in the same way as would be done if the Secretary of State, though present in England, were, by illness or any other engagement, prevented from attending the Cabinet personally.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Cabinet which is to decide urgent questions of the first importance in matters ordinarily disposed of by the Secretary of State for India in Council will be composed, in dealing with such matters, of any other officers of the Crown than the principal Secretaries of State; and if he will state the manner in which such decisions shall be recorded and the procedure used to secure consultation with the Council of India?
The constitution of the Cabinet will be unchanged.
asked whether, seeing that the Secretary of State for India is to be absent for several months outside the Realm, it is intended to arrange for the attendance of any other Secretary of State at the weekly meetings of the Council of India for the due performance of the duties imposed by the Government of India Act, 1915?
This is not considered necessary.
Royal Navy
Food and Lodging Allowance
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any increase in the allowance for food and lodging has been made since the War in the case of chief petty officers arid other officers not victualled on the Navy; and, if so, will he give the daily increase in figures and not percentages?
So far as chief petty officers are concerned, there has been no increase in the lodging allowance during the War. It stands at 1s. 6d. a day. The food allowance for chief petty officers not victualled on the Navy has been increased during the War from 1s. 6d. a day to 1s. 8d. a day. The same is true of warrant rank, commissioned warrant rank, and commissioned rank as regards the food allowance. In certain exceptional cases, however, naval officers not provided with Service accommodation and victualling are repaid the amount of actual charge for lodging which is in excess of the regulation rate. As regards chief petty officers, in any case in which it is represented that they are unable to obtain accommodation and food at a cost which is met by the amount of the regulation allowance for lodging and victualling, instructions are issued that they are to be billeted under the Navy Billeting Act.
Will my right hon. Friend consider whether some further increase in food allowance is not reasonably due to these men?
It has been increased to 1s. 8d., as I have just said. I cannot give any assurance upon the matter except that it is one that shall be considered.
Leave
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the request of the twenty-one marines, Chatham Division, on one of His Majesty's ships, for leave made in the usual service manner in or about the month of November, 1916, has been received by the Admiralty and when; what has happened to this request; and whether he has now taken any and, if so, what steps to ensure that these men and the forty-two stokers on the same ship have immediate leave?
No trace can be found of the request referred to in the earlier part of the question. As regards the last part of the question, as I informed my hon. and learned Friend on Wednesday last, arrangements are now actually in progress to relieve all the men who have been three years abroad.
I desire to say how much I regret if, on the last occasion that I put a supplementary question on this subject, I imputed in any way that my right hon. Friend had not done everything he could in this matter.
Promotion
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that disappointment is felt by commissioned warrant and warrant officers in the Royal Navy at the limited number of promotions that have taken place in their ranks during the War; whether 5,000 men have been given the rank of lieutenant who, previous to the outbreak of war, had no connection with the Royal Navy; whether his attention has been called to the appeal made by commissioned warrant and warrant officers, Royal Navy, submitting that all deserving commissioned warrant officers of every branch, including chief Royal Marine gunners, shall, after five years as such, be promoted to the rank of lieutenant or equivalent rank for long and meritorious service, being retained in their various specialist appointments afloat or on shore, according to the requirements of the Service; and whether he has any statement to make to the House on the subject?
During the War 411 promotions of commissioned warrant and warrant officers to commissioned rank have been made up to the present, and a further number will be made shortly. During the same time approximately 5,000 temporary commissions as lieutenants, R.N.R. and R.N.V.R., have been granted, but no record is available of the number of cases in which the recipients were connected with the Royal Navy previously. The commissions so granted are temporary only and will be given up at the end of the War. The appeal to which my hon. Friend refers has been received.
Does the right hon. Gentleman suppose that these men will be ready to give up their commissions at the end of the War?
They will do so. These 5,000 temporary commissions will be given up at the end of the War.
Are not the majority of these commissions not Naval but Volunteer commissions?
They are all volunteers. The great bulk of them are cashiers of banks, who have come to our assistance as paymasters, and we are very much obliged to them.
Shipping
Protection Against Submarines
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the serious loss of mercantile tonnage, and the consequent serious loss of life and foodstuffs and supplies, owing to the lack of destroyers; and whether or not naval strategy should be reviewed to concentrate on more effective anti-U-boat warfare and the safer convoying of merchant shipping?
I can assure my hon. Friend that the Navy gives all the protection its resources and duties permit.
Is there any truth in the statement that the major part of the ships that are now being sunk by the U-boats are in the Irish Channel, and does the right hon. Gentleman think that the Irish Channel is sufficiently protected at the present time?
I cannot say anything as to the former part of the question, but the Navy is doing all it possibly can within its resources.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any available information with regard to the destruction of foreign hostile submarines?
No; I cannot add anything to what has already been said.
asked whether, when the steamship "A" (name given) was sunk, she had parted from convoy; if so, was it by Admiralty instructions she had parted convoy; whether at the time of being sunk she was provided by the Admiralty with any protection other than her own gun, and, if so, what protection; and how many lives were lost?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. If by the third part the hon. Member refers to the protection of a convoy, that part of the question, therefore, has already been answered. As regards the last part of the question, the latest report received states that thirty-eight passengers and thirty-nine of the crew are missing.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this steamer had just passed a harbour of refuge, and was sunk off a point only 40 miles from a port, and that she might have been effectively escorted or convoyed by seaplanes?
No; I cannot say that, but I will put that point to my naval advisers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that seaplanes have proved the most effective mode of dealing with submarines?
Is it usual for the Admiralty to give orders to a steamship to part company from her convoy without giving her effective protection?
Yes, in circumstances where there is a reasonable prospect of safety. It must be considered, having regard to all the circumstances, because it must be remembered that we have a great many duties for these convoys to perform, and we do the best we can with our resources.
asked if any, and, if so, how many, vessels were sunk at about the same time and at about the same place as the steamship "A"?
I am advised that it is not in the public interest to furnish this information.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that this question conveys a fact.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can give any assurance that better protection will be afforded British shipping against the operations of enemy submarines in Liverpool Bay and the adjoining waters?
The forces available for the protection of shipping are used to the best possible advantage, their disposition being adjusted as circumstances require.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that enemy operations have been going on here for quite a considerable period; that there is a strong feeling of indignation growing up in Liverpool about it; and will he see that some measures are adopted to give greater protection?
I can only repeat that the resources at our disposal are used to the very best advantage according to our ability to meet the demand. We can do no more than that.
Does that mean that we are to expect that these sinkings are to go on?
Does it mean that the Admiralty are prepared to take no advice but their own?
Oh, no. In certain cases we have taken other advice.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the delay to ships and loss of the use of mercantile tonnage by the present system of convoy?
Yes, Sir. Some delay to shipping must necessarily result from any system of convoy sailings.
I do not wish to be severe on the Admiralty, but is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there have been many inefficient methods adopted up to the present, and that steamers are kept waiting at least ten days for convoys, and that convoys have been sent out, notwithstanding what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller says, with fast and slow ships running together, with the result that the convoys go along at the rate of four or seven knots an hour?
If my hon. Friend has any views as to convoys not being worked as efficiently as they might be, I shall be very glad to have them, and submit them to my naval advisers. I have already taken note of his suggestion, which I will represent to my advisers.
I do not dissent from their being all at one speed, but from the speed of about four knots an hour for both fast and slow boats.
In view of the widespread impression—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"]—that there has been an avoidable delay, would it not be a good thing to have a friendly consultation with important shipowners?
I will certainly make that representation. My hon. Friend knows there have been such consultations already, and I am not sure that he has not been present at them, and we are much obliged to him for his assistance. If he can help us further as an expert, by all means let us have his advice.
In view of the very important questions—
Order, order!
Distribution of Shipping
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the unequal distribution of shipping at the ports caused by insufficient convoy protection; whether he is aware that fifteen large modern docks are lying idle in the Bristol Channel ports and that 45 per cent. of shipping is congested in the port of Liverpool, with consequent delays and wastage of tonnage, while 30,000 to 40,000 men are without work and enduring privation which is causing discontent; and what action he proposes to take in the matter?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The reply to the first part is in the negative, but it is true that the convoy system sometimes necessarily interferes with the purely economic distribution of shipping at ports. It is not the case that fifteen large modern docks are lying idle in the Bristol Channel ports, but it is true that at the date of a very recent report there were fifteen principal ports in the United Kingdom not being used for the discharge of general cargoes and grain, but in use for other important purposes. As to the port of Liverpool, the proportion of shipping there is not as great as is suggested in the question. It is true that there is shortage of work at some ports; the conditions referred to arise out of the exigencies of war, and, as my hon. Friend knows, it is impossible to avoid this. Generally, the best possible use is being made of United Kingdom ports in the very difficult circumstances which obtain.
Is there any truth in the statement that fast and slow ships are convoyed at one and the same time?
That is absolutely false.
Is there any truth in the assertion that there are from 30,000 to 40,000 dock labourers without work?
That is a statement which I have not been able to verify, but it is true, consequent upon the necessary uneven distribution of shipping in the ports, that there is a certain amount of unemployment at some of the ports. As there seems some misunderstanding as to my reply to the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. W. Thorne), I should like to add that convoys, of course, sail at an even rate.
Will the Ministry take some serious steps to get these 30,000 or 40,000 men removed from the places where they are not employed to many of the ports which are short of dock labour?
Everything possible is done to increase the availability of dock labour.
Naval Courts-Martial
The following questions stood in the name of Commander BELLAIRS:
9. To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, in view of the fact that the articles of the Navy Discipline Act affecting courts-martial are based on the common law, and that it has been the custom of the Board to take the opinions of the Law Officers of the Crown on questions affecting the procedure of courts-martial, whether the Law Officers of the Crown were asked whether Article 65 of the Navy Discipline Act, enabling the Admiralty to regulate court-martial procedure by Orders in Council, covered so wide a departure as that involved in the Order in Council, 23rd May, 1916, and finally approved on 7th July, 1916, fundamentally altering the customs and regulations of the Navy by holding courts-martial in secret; and, if so, will he state the Law Officers' reply?
This question was put on Monday, and I do not desire to put it again unless the right hon. Gentleman has anything to add to his previous answer.
No, I am afraid that I can add nothing to the answer which I gave my hon. and gallant Friend on Monday.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty (1) whether he will state on what authority the presidents and members of courts-martial varied the procedure of courts-martial prior to the Order in Council of 7th July, 1916, in view of the fact that the public were excluded from these courts; will he state the wording of any Admiralty Order under which they acted; whether any representation was addressed to the Admiralty as to the risk they were running of rendering the proceedings illegal through their failure to get an Order in Council or an Act of Indemnity from this House for breaches of the Navy Discipline Act under which Parliament governs the Navy; (2) on what statutory authority the public were excluded from the proceedings of naval courts-martial during the War prior to the Order in Council laid upon the Table on 11th July, 1916, in view of the fact that Section 65 of the Naval Discipline Act lays down that, subject to the provisions of the Act, the Admiralty may only frame general orders for altering and regulating the procedure and practice of courts-martial if they are approved by His Majesty in Council on a Report of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, but not sooner or otherwise, and such Orders are to be laid before both Houses of Parliament?
Again, I am afraid I cannot add to the answer given on Monday. In the case to which my hon. and gallant Friend referred on Monday, the Admiralty took the course it did in the public interest and with the prior concurrence of the Rear-Admiral and his legal adviser. The Admiralty Order to the Commander-in-Chief was that the Board had had under their consideration the possibility of leakage of confidential information. In order to prevent such a possibility, it had been decided that when the interests of the State would be imperilled by the taking of evidence in public, the Court is to be cleared. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative. In the opinion of the Admiralty, no such risk was run.
Did the Admiralty exclude the public from courts-martial prior to the Order in Council? Are there any other cases where the public were excluded?
Speaking off-hand, I do not think there was before 1914. I think the first case was in 1916, but I am not quite sure.
Were the public excluded or were they not excluded before 1916?
I do not know of any other case, but it is quite true that it was not until 1916 that we adopted the Regulation by Order in Council.
Then in these cases we may assume that none of these courts-martial are secret and that any Member of Parliament may have access to the proceedings of any one of these courts-martial because they could not be held in secret?
I do not know about that. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will put down a question on the point.
Was it not ultra vires on the part of the Admiralty to hold these proceedings in secret?
No; that is not our view. Our view is that, under this Regulation, we are entitled to hold courts-martial in private.
Under what paragraph? Can the right hon. Gentleman point to any provision in any Act of Parliament or any Order in Council which entitles the Admiralty to hold these courts in secret?
No, Sir. I have already said so. But I can point to nothing to the contrary.
It is contrary to the common law.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say how it is that the Admiralty are overriding the Navy Discipline Act Section 65, which says that there must be an Order in Council and that such Orders in Council must be laid on the Table of this House?
It is not our view that under Section 65 we are bound to hold a court-martial in public.
You have to get an Order in Council.
Canal Communication (Scotland)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether plans have been prepared for a mid-Scotland canal viâ Loch Lomond; whether plans will be prepared for an alternative route; and whether, when all data are collected with regard to practicability, cost, strategic, and commercial value, he will submit full particulars to the House of Commons before any final decision is come to?
As I have previously stated, Messrs. Armstrong submitted some time ago plans for a canal viâ Loch Lomond, and I understand that they have in preparation also similar plans for one by the "direct route." I presume that any decision reached by His Majesty's Government to construct a canal will require Parliamentary sanction.
May we take it that in preparing the final Report on the Mid-Scotland Canal the right hon. Gentleman will use the highest class of brains in the engineering profession, and see that a thoroughly independent Report is made; and will he also consider whether it would not be advisable in the interests of the country that the probable future of the Crinan Canal should be looked into at the same time, because it would make a thorough through route from the East to the West Coast?
Will the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the fact that a canal from Yoker to Grangemouth would be of very great value from a commercial point of view, see that very full and impartial consideration is given to the plans prepared for a canal by this route?
So far as we are concerned—and this is a matter of strategic importance to us—we are now preparing a Report for the Ministry of Reconstruction, and all the points raised by my hon. Friend, and all the relative facts from that point of view, will certainly be considered.
Would it not be a good plan to decide this by the hon. Member's system of the alternative vote?
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether consideration has yet been given to the payment of disability pensions to the few long-service men who have received wounds and injuries during the War, and who, instead of being invalided, have been retained on active service?
It has been decided to adhere to existing regulations and practice whereby compensation on the injury pension scale of the men referred to by my hon. Friend is deferred until their final discharge from the Service. It is proposed, however, to arrange that while these men remain in the Service they shall suffer no pecuniary loss through loss of earning capacity; and, of course, if any of these men qualify for long-service pension while still in Admiralty service, such pension will be awarded, and their cases will subsequently be transferred to the Ministry of Pensions for an award on the injury scale when the time arrives for discharge to the shore.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the long answer he has given me has nothing whatever to do with the question? The men to whom I refer in no way benefit from what he has told the House.
With the greatest respect, I think I understand the question as well as the hon. Gentleman himself. The answer I have given is a precise answer to the question on the Paper.
Post Office Wireless Stations
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if it is proposed to make a change of staff at the Post Office wirless stations in the British Isles; if so, whether it is the intention of the Government to replace the existing staffs, composed of Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve men, by operators who have received a short period of training at the Crystal Palace; and whether, seeing that the present operators have apparently given every satisfaction since the outbreak of war, he will reconsider the question of retaining them on their present work?
My right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General is answering a question by my hon. Friend, No. 98, which deals with certain aspects of this question. For the rest, no change will be made by us in the personnel of a station so long as it remains under the Post Office. We are proposing to take over certain further Post Office stations, and these may either be manned by naval ratings or by the present Post Office staff.
Questions
Roumania
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has seen the statement of the Russian Foreign Minister that Roumania was, in the spring of 1916, offered such inducements as were then considered the utmost possible in order to induce her to enter the War; and whether subsequently further promises or offers have been made to Roumania?
I have seen the statement referred to, but am unable to judge, without further information, to what offers the Russian Foreign Minister was alluding. The last part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
Russia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it was on instruction from or with the knowledge of the British Government that shortly before 9th October, 1917, the British, French, and Italian Ambassadors personally expressed to M. Kerensky in Petrograd their fears as to the state of Russia; and whether Sir George Buchanan reported that the American Government had declined to take part in this action?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I understand that the United States Ambassador did not participate in these representations, because he was without instructions from his Government.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Sir George Buchanan has received any Notes or communications from the present (Leninist or Socialist Coalition) Government in Petrograd; if so, what action has been taken upon them; and whether any of our Allies or any neutral Governments have relations with the present Government in Petrograd?
Two official Notes have so far been received from M. Trotsky by Sir George Buchanan. No action has been taken on them. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative, so far as the Allied representatives are concerned. I have no sufficient information to enable me to answer about the representatives of neutral Powers.
Does Sir George Buchanan inform M. Trotsky that it is no use sending dispatches or communications to him, as they are totally disregarded?
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Sir George Buchanan is in communication with any persons recognised as being representative of, or connected with, the Russian Government; if the answer is in the affirmative, who are those persons; if the answer is in the negative, on what date was Sir George Buchanan last in communication with the Russian Government, and with what persons was he then in communication; and whether Sir George Buchanan's letters and telegrams to the Foreign Office are subject at present to any censorship or delay on the part of the Russian authorities?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. Sir George Buchanan was in communication with the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the late Russian Government just before it was superseded. Sir George Buchanan's letters and telegrams are subjected to a certain amount of delay, but not, so far as I am aware, to any censorship.
Is it usual, or has it occurred before, that our Ambassadorial dispatches and communications have been subjected to any delay, and can any reason be given for this?
I should have thought the position of Russia was a very sufficient reason for such delay in communication.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the present Russian Government has appointed an Ambassador to the Court of St. James; and, if so, can he state his name?
Nothing has been heard officially on the subject of such an appointment since the fall of the late Provisional Government in Russia.
Albania
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with reference to any new statement of Allied policy, whether His Majesty's Government will see to it that the rights of the Albanian peoples to self-government within their ethical boundaries are held as sacred as the rights of Armenians, Serbs, Jews, or Poles, and especially that their country be not used as a pool or a consolation prize?
His Majesty's Government have the warmest sympathy with the Albanian peoples, and would welcome any solution which, accompanied by adequate security against future strife, was of a nature to safeguard the full exercise of their national rights.
War Trade Intelligence Department
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many men of military age classified A or B were taken on to the staffs of the War Trade Intelligence Department and kindred services after the passing of the Military Service Act; and what proportion of these men have since been released to the Colours?
The War Trade Intelligence Department have taken on six A and B men, who are still there; two of them were transferred from other offices; one has been reclassified as C3. The Foreign Trade Department have taken on seven men of whom three have since been released; of the remaining four, only one is B 1, one B 2, and the others B 3. The War Trade Statistical Department have taken on no men from outside, but have had five A and B men (Civil servants) transferred to them from other Departments. The War Trade Department have taken on one man classified B 1—he is still employed.
May I point out the cruelty of any endeavour to elicit information with regard to the action of the Foreign Office?
League of Nations
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether President Wilson has in any way retracted as regards his declarations that the establishment of a League of Nations should be sought?
I am not aware of any announcement by President Wilson in that sense
Polygamy (Germany)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any information concerning the intentions of official persons in Germany, directly or indirectly, to encourage polygamy?
His Majesty's Government learned recently that a neutral newspaper had called attention to the publication of a pamphlet in Germany entitled '"Complementary Marriage the only Sure Means of Building up a New and Powerful Army and Ennobling Morality." It was stated that this pamphlet had been officially, or semi-officially, spread broadcast both among the soldiers and the civil population.
Is it on mere newspaper statements by a neutral paper that the Foreign Office representatives in this House make important speeches?
All I said was that a neutral newspaper has made the assertion which I have just read out.
Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Noble Lord his Under-Secretary elaborated this in a speech in the country, and does he consider it worthy of the dignity of his office and of his relative to make such speeches on such miserable foundations?
That question had better be addressed to my noble relative. I hope the hon. Member himself will take to heart the views on newspaper evidence which he has just given us.
What are our sources of information if the Foreign Office withholds every information it can and leaves us to rely solely upon newspapers?
The hon. Member is complaining of me because I did use those sources.
Lord Lansdowne
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has received from any Allied Government any communication of dissent or concern regarding the pronouncement recently made by Lord Lansdowne?
The reply is in the negative.
asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement to the House on the subject of Lord Lansdowne's letter which appeared in the "Daily Telegraph" of 29th November?
The answer is in the negative.
Have the Cabinet fully considered the gravity of this document, as being an invitation to allow Germany to establish a hegemony over Europe on condition that the present dynasty is preserved?
I have nothing to add to what I have already said.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the importance of the statement on war aims that has been made by Lord Lansdowne, and in particular because it urges President Wilson's policy of a league of nations, he will take steps to secure for it the widest possible publicity through the War Aims Committee?
The answer is in the negative.
Prohibition Laws (Canada)
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies in how many of the nine provinces of the Dominion of Canada laws prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors are in operation; and whether in each case these are permanent or for the period of the War only?
Laws restricting the sale and consumption of liquor on the lines of what is known as prohibition have been passed by all the Canadian provinces with the exception of Quebec, where the system in force is that of local option. The legislation is generally of a permanent character, but in Ontario and New Brunswick plebescites are to be taken in the first case in June, 1919, and in the second at some time after the War.
Ceylon Riots
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is in a position to give an assurance that no women or children were shot during the disturbances in Ceylon either by white men themselves or soldiers under their command?
Investigation has shown that one woman was accidentally shot by a patrol firing at some rioters. The facts were given in a reply to the hon. Member for Westmeath on the 30th April. No other case has been brought to notice, and I have no reason to suppose that any occurred.
— Germans. Austrians and Bulgarians. Turks. Other Nationalities. Date. Western Front 124,243 — — — Up to and including 26th November, 1917. Egypt — — 19,770 — Up to 30th November, 1917. Mesopotamia — — 23,335 — Up to 30th November, 1917 East Africa 2,859 — — 6,652 Native soldiers 2,000 followers Up to 30th November, 1917 Salonika — 2,092 — — Between 1st July, 1916, to 31st October, 1917. Totals 127,102 2,092 43,105 8,652 Native soldiers and followers Grand Total 180,951
Does the horn Gentleman think the word "accidentally" is a proper word in the case of the shooting of that woman?
Yes, Sir.
Were any of them children?
I am not aware of that.
Prisoners of War
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will give the number of prisoners of war taken on all fronts, Germans, Turks, and other nationalities, up to and including those reported on 26th November?
I will circulate the details and the dates in the OFFICIAL REPORT, but the totals are as follows:—
Is there any chance of an interchange of prisoners with the Turks?
I must have notice of that question.
[ The following are the details referred to: ]
Censorship (Letters)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in regard to the censorship of letters coming from abroad or going abroad, there is, in addition to the list of those exempted from censorship, a list communicated to the officials of the Censor's Department advising that no letters addressed to certain persons should be opened, though they are not included in the category of persons declared in this House to be exempt from censorship; whether the full list or a description of the classes of such persons will be communicated to the House; whether in that list are included relatives of ex-King Constantine; and, if so, whether the grounds of exception will be given in each case?
No, Sir; there is no such list.
Has the hon. Gentleman ascertained that as a fact, or is his reply intended to deceive the House?
I endeavour, so far as possible, never to deceive the House, and it is as I said.
Military Service
Time-Expired and Wounded Soldiers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the War Office are recalling men to the Colours who are at one and the same time time-expired and wounded; whether he is aware that a time-expired man who has been wounded is in exactly the same position as a man subject to the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act; and whether it is proposed to equalise the position of such men?
A man who was discharged from the Army on grounds of disablement and whose disablement is certified to have been the result of wounds received in battle or from the enemy is not liable to be re-called for military service under the Military Service (Review of Exceptions) Act, 1917, since he is expressly freed from liability by that Act. On the other hand, the liability of a man who was discharged time-expired does not arise under the Act at all, and, therefore, the provision of the Act relating to wounded men does not apply to him.
Are not they fully entitled to consideration?
I believe they are entitled to sympathetic consideration, but they have no rights under the Act.
Have they not the same rights under the Act as the men to whom my hon. Friend gave a pledge at the Liverpool election?
Not at all. The pledge I gave at the Liverpool election is the pledge I gave in the House.
Mine-Sweepers and Patrol Vessels (Leave)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware that men serving in the Mediterranean on His Majesty's mine-sweepers and patrol vessels have not had leave for two and a-half years; and if he will endeavour to see that these men, as opportunity arises, are granted the leave due to them?
Nearly all the men on mine-sweepers in the Mediterranean who have served two years there have already been relieved. We hope before long that this will be true of all these men. As regards motor launches, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to the Member for West Leeds on 19th November.
Labour Battalion (Home Service)
asked whether an order will be issued authorising, wherever possible, leave for Christmas to those men who are in the agricultural section of the Labour Battalion (Home Service), and who have not had leave for six months and over?
The general question of Christmas leave is being considered, and no instructions have yet been issued on the subject. It is hoped that the men in agricultural companies will benefit to the same extent as others.
Will instructions be issued in time?
Yes.
Army Service Corps
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he is aware that men earning large wages as aeroplane engine-fitters are being taken from that work and placed in the Army in the motor transport Army Service Corps, and a short time afterwards sent back to their former occupation; and whether he can take steps to see that this waste of time and disorganisation of work, entailing, in addition, application to the Civil Liabilities Committee and inconvenience to the men's families, is avoided by inquiring beforehand whether these men are really required in the national interests in their present employment before calling them up?
My hon. Friend has furnished me with particulars of a specific case. The matter is one for my hon. Friend the Minister of National Service, who, I understand, will make inquiries and communicate the result to my hon. Friend.
asked the Under-Secretary for War why Joseph Quigley, forty-seven years old and father of six children, who enlisted for home service as baker in the Army Service Corps at Nenagh on 12th September, 1917, and now stationed at Bath, regimental No. 363,617, Bakers' Section, Army Service Corps, has not been put to his trade since joining up; if he will say why he has been put through a course of drill and raised from C3 to B1; and if it is the intention to break their agreement with this man?
All men of the supply branch of the Army Service Corps are sent to the depot at Bath for trade test and the necessary drill and instruction, and cannot all be employed at their trades there while awaiting posting. Private Quigley enlisted for general service, and on enlistment was classified C1 (now B1), not C3. The last part of the question does not arise.
Australian Engineers
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that Stephen Kelley, late senior wireless engineer of the 3rd Light Horse Brigade, Australian Engineers, found much needed water for thousands of men although he was wounded and had to be carried out of hospital for that purpose, he can now say why this man is now in London with a pension of only 7s. 6d. per week; and why, as he is now sufficiently recovered to be of the greatest service in finding water in Palestine, he is not so employed?
I have no information as to Sapper Kelley's pension, which is a matter for the Australian authorities. As regards his further employment, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which I gave him on 13th November.
Is he going to do anything?
I pointed out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman on 13th November that Kelley was declared to be permanently unfit for any Army service by a board of consultants.
As he is able to walk and run about this country, why should he not do so in Palestine?
Medical Practitioners
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether medical men in military hospitals who are over age have been replaced by Americans; if so, to what extent this practice has been carried on; and whether he will consider the possibility of utilising the services of elderly medical men for the examination of recruits so as to release for active service medical men of military age?
The services of medical officers of the Army of the United States of America are being made use of in the military hospitals at home and abroad, not only to release medical practitioners required for the Army, but in order to afford these officers opportunities of acquiring practical military experience with troops under service conditions. The medical examination of recruits is conducted under the instructions of the National Service Ministry, to whom this part of the question should have been addressed.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of cases where medical men beyond the age are yet quite capable of doing ser- viceable work and are desirous of doing such work and cannot their services be utilised?
We always try to use the services of civil practitioners, but as the hon. Member knows there was at one time a great outcry in the House that we had been using civil practitioners too much.
East Africa Campaign (German Ill-Treatment of Prisoners)
asked the Under-Secretary for War if he can give any information as to the alleged ill-treatment of British, Indian, and native prisoners of war by Germans in East Africa?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the Command Paper presented in September, 1917 (Cd.8689), which contains a full statement on this subject.
Enemy Aliens
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Resolutions in regard to alien enemies standing in the names of the hon. Member for Brentford and others have been unanimously approved by the Unionist Business Committee and the Unionist War Committee, representing the majority of his own supporters in the House; and whether, under these circumstances, he will give a day for their discussion?
I regret that it will not be possible for me to give special facilities for the discussion of this subject, which can be raised in connection with the next Vote of Credit, which will be introduced before the end of the Session.
As it is impossible to pass a Resolution, or to vote against the Government on a Vote of Credit, and there is a very strong feeling both inside and outside the House upon this question, will the right hon. Gentleman give a day, or even half a day, for discussion, even if the Session is extended over Christmas?
I really do not think it necessary. I think that the Vote of Credit will give full opportunity for dis- cussion, and if Members like to take the responsibility they can even take a vote. What is wanted I am sure is a discussion, and that gives the best opportunity.
Representation of the People Bill (Irish Redistribution)
asked if the redistribution proposals will be amended to meet the views of the Irish people; and why the agreement arrived at by the Speaker's Conference is not carried out by the Government?
I cannot add anything to the previous replies on this subject.
Food Supplies
Military Lands, Seaford
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that nearly 2,000 acres of agricultural land adjoining Seaford, Sussex, have been taken over by the military authorities, and that several hundred acres of the best arable land in Sussex, which has not been and cannot be used for military purposes, is being neglected in such a way that the East Sussex War Agricultural Committee are anxious to take over the land, but cannot do so because it belongs to the War Office and not to a private owner; and whether he will take steps to see that land which is not required for military purposes, but which has been taken over by the War Office, should be subject to the Lands Cultivation Order in the same way as if it belonged to a private owner?
I have no information at present as to the matter brought to notice by my hon. Friend, but I will make inquiries at once and let him know the result.
Questions
National Day of Prayer
asked the Prime Minister whether, with a view to a response as unanimous as possible to His Majesty the King's call to prayer on Sunday, 6th January, the Government intend to order or recommend the closing on that day of all shops, cinemas, theatres, and other places of entertainment; and, having regard to previous occasions for solemn prayer before Almighty God appointed by the Sovereign, whether His Majesty the King will be advised accordingly?
The Government has no power to make such an Order as is suggested. The value of the response to the King's call to prayer will depend on its being spontaneous, and I do not doubt the nation will respond spontaneously and unanimously to the call.
Does the right Hon. Gentleman not think that the Prime Minister might join in the appeal by heads of religious bodies, to the nation to observe this day, and to close all unnecessary business on one day during the War?
I think the fact that this appeal has been made is the best recommendation that can be made, and I do not think it would be strengthened by the course suggested by the hon. Member.
War Aims (Von Kuhlman's Statement)
asked whether, in view of the statement by Herr von Kuhlman that Germany was prepared to convey her war aims to the Allies, His Majesty's Government will take steps to avail themselves of this offer?
A declaration of war aims by Germany, which has not yet been forthcoming, would be considered by the Allied Governments.
British Casualties
asked the Prime Minister whether, once a week, he will make a statement as to British casualties and relevant facts, the House sitting in secret for the time occupied?
The answer is in the negative.
Does not the responsibility for the soldiers rest with every Member of this House, and how can they fulfil that responsibility if the Government refuses to give relevant facts?
The Government does not refuse to give relevant facts. Responsibility is left to the House of Commons, but it is also left to the Cabinet, which is responsible to the House of Commons.
Does that mean that if the right hon. Gentleman receives from Members of the House of Commons a request for the giving of facts in a Secret Session he will meet that request?
No; it means that if the House should demand from the Government anything which the Government is not prepared to give, it would mean that the Government no longer commands the confidence of the House of Commons.
Mr. OUTHWAITE rose—
Order, order!
The hon. Member has received a very explicit answer. If he wants any further information, he had better put the question down.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government are satisfied that our losses in the field are balanced by the gains we make, and whether the Government—
Order, order!
That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
I want to know whether the Government are taking the responsibility out of the hands of this House?
That does not arise directly out of the question on the Paper.
Yes, it does; on the question of relevant facts.
It is not relevant to the question on the Paper.
Foreign Affairs (Constitutional Practice)
asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the necessity of a denial through the Press Bureau and subsequently in the House of Commons by the Minister representing the Foreign Office of the statements coming from Vienna that His late Majesty King Edward VII. endeavoured to induce the late Emperor of Austria to sever his alliance with Germany and to the risk of credence being given to falsehoods of like character arising from conversations and correspondence on matters of international policy between the Sovereign of this country and the heads and Ministers of foreign States without the presence or supervision of a Minister responsible to the House of Commons, an assurance will be given that there be no further departure from the rule of constitutional practice observed without interruption, from its establishment by Mr. Canning in 1826 till Lord Lansdowne became Secretary for Foreign Affairs in 1900, that a member of the Cabinet should be present at every interview between the Sovereign and the heads of foreign States and foreign Ministers, that the Sovereign should take no independent action in foreign affairs, and that everything which passes between him and foreign princes or Ministers should be known to his own Ministers, who are responsible to the people for the foreign policy of the country and to the law for acts done?
I am not aware of any instance since 1900, the date quoted by the hon. Member, in which the Sovereign has taken action in foreign affairs without the knowledge and agreement of his responsible Ministers.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of six instances in which the late King went to foreign potentates on international affairs without being attended by the Foreign Minister or any Minister responsible to this House, and that half the mischief in Europe has arisen from that?
I was not aware of that, but perhaps the hon. Gentleman can bring any relevant facts to my notice. What I said was, and it is important, that, to use the hon. Gentleman's own phrase, no action has been taken in foreign affairs by any Sovereign in this country without the knowledge of responsible Ministers.
I said that no action had been taken between 1826 to the advent of Lord Lansdowne to power, when action was taken, and he allowed the late King to go free all through Europe without Ministers to attend him.
Allies' War Council (Naval Policy)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will give to the House information concerning the recent inter-Allies' War Council in Paris; and what steps have been taken to co-ordinate the naval policy of the Allies through the War Council sitting at Versailles?
I have no statement to make in regard to the first part of the question. As regards the second part, this matter was discussed and a provisional agreement reached which only awaits the confirmation of the Allied Governments.
Could not the right hon. Gentleman at an early date make some further statement as to who are the naval representatives on this Allied Council?
When the agreement is completed I will consider whether a further statement should be made.
War Savings Certificates
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, with a view of increasing the subscriptions to War Bonds, he can now withdraw the limit of £500 imposed on one subscriber which is now applied to the 15s. 6d. bonds issued by the Post Office?
The hon. Member no doubt refers to War Savings Certificates. There is no limit on a holding of National War Bonds. Having regard to the fact that interest on War Savings Certificates is not liable to Income Tax or Super-tax, I am not prepared to raise above 500 the limit for the number of certificates which may be purchased by any one individual.
Expenditure and Revenue
asked the amount of the national expenditure for the week ended 24th November last; how much revenue was raised during that week by taxation; how much was raised by National War Bonds; how much was the deficit to be met from other sources; and how, in detail, was it financed?
As may be seen from the weekly Exchequer return, the Exchequer issues for Supply and Consolidated Fund services in the week ending 24th November amounted to £49,592,912. The Exchequer receipts from taxation were £8,411,271, from National War Bonds £9,647,000, and from War Savings Certificates £900,000. It would, I think, be misleading to give details for any particular week beyond those furnished in the Exchequer Returns.
In view of the fact that this week only about one-sixth of the expenditure is met from taxation, and only slightly more than that from National War Bonds, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the question of increasing taxation and also the issue of a new long date War Loan so as to save the country from the disastrous consequences of the present financial methods?
That is obviously all a matter of argument and not for discussion by question and answer, but I am sure that my hon. Friend knows enough of the financial conditions to realise that a single week cannot be taken as an indication of the position.
Death Sentences (New Zealand Soldiers)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether New Zealand soldiers claiming to be conscientious objectors have been forcibly taken to France; and whether, in the event of the death sentence being passed on any New Zealand soldiers for an offence which, on examination, is found to be based on conscientious objection to military service, instruction will be given for the Commander-in-Chief to remit the death penalty?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave him on 26th November, and to the answer given on 31st October to my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, West.
Dispensers (Military Hospitals)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any qualification is necessary for male dispensers employed in military hospitals; whether unqualified dispensers are employed, and their number; whether he is aware that there are a number of qualified female dispensers available for this duty; if he will say why unqualified male dispensers are preferred to qualified female dispensers; and whether he will take any action in the matter?
All dispensers employed in military hospitals are required to be qualified under the conditions prescribed in the Standing Orders for the Royal Army Medical Corps. Female dispensers are employed whenever possible, and there is no information of any unqualified male dispensers being employed.
Am I to understand that all the dispensers are qualified?
My hon. and learned Friend may gather that from my answer.
Gallipoli (Sickness)
asked the total number of troops engaged in Gallipoli; the total cases of sickness in Gallipoli from all causes, including those sent to Malta for treatment; and the total number of deaths from typhoid and paratyphoid among the troops engaged in that campaign?
I regret that this information is not available.
Leather Supplies
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that there is at present a scarcity of leather in the country whilst at the same time the fashion of high boots for women continues, thereby diminishing the amount of leather available for foot wear for the poor; and whether an Order prohibiting the manufacture of such boots will be issued?
Before the hon. Gentleman answers this question, may I ask him whether the heels of these boots are made of wood, and it is only the uppers that are made of leather?
I must ask for notice of that question. With regard to the question put by my Noble Friend, the War Department, acting in consulta- tion with the Board of Trade, has already decided to issue an Order prohibiting the manufacture of boots for women with uppers over a specified height. Particulars of the Order will appear in the Press in the course of a day or two.
Is it decided that the heels should also be limited?
Will there also be an Order for the lengthening of petticoats?
Brigadier-General Elliot
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that injustice has been done by the War Office to Brigadier-General Elliot by removing him from his command and putting him on half-pay, equivalent to a fine, up to the present, of £200; whether he is aware that no Court of Inquiry was held in accordance with the King's Regulations at which General Elliot was present; whether General Elliot can be held more to blame than any of his superiors for what at most was a technical fault; whether he is aware that simultaneously with General Elliot's dismissal from his command he received information of the death of his son fighting at the front; whether the man who was the cause of this injustice being inflicted upon General Elliot has been sentenced to two years' imprisonment for insubordination or other military offence; whether he is aware that General Elliot is a Regular soldier, who has seen hard service and has proved himself an efficient and zealous officer; and whether, in the light of subsequent events, General Elliot will now be reinstated in his late or a similar command and be paid full pay for the full period?
I would refer my hon. Friend to previous answers which I have given on this subject. It is true that no Court of Inquiry was held, but the Army Council took the appropriate action which it had power to take, not, as is suggested, simultaneously with the news of the most regrettable personal loss which General Elliot sustained, but before it. As I stated before, General Elliot will not suffer any financial or other disability except such as is consequential upon his being unemployed for a certain period. Everything that is possible is being done to utilise the services of the officers concerned in this case as opportunity offers, and I am informed that one of them is being reinstated now, and the other is noted for an early vacancy.
Which one has been reinstated?
Major Grimshaw.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that General Elliot has been very harshly treated, and that he is no more responsible personally than any superior officer, including the Secretary of State for War, and why should any financial penalty be inflicted on him?
I promised to consider the ease of the three officers. I think that I have fulfilled my promise. I hope to have two of them reinstated as quickly as possible. One is actually reinstated, though not gazetted. As my hon. Friend realises, it is much more difficult to reinstate a Brigadier-General than a major or a colonel.
Why cannot justice be done, no matter what the man's rank?
Justice was done It is true that the man concerned was a conscientious objector, but, for the purposes of the Army, we must see that the conscientious objector is regarded as a soldier, and must have the obligations and rights of one.
I do not dispute that for one single moment, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that General Elliot had no personal knowledge, and could have had none, of the action of a subordinate at a place fifteen miles away from a railway station?
I think that my hon. Friend will realise that the Brigadier-General commanding cannot divest himself of responsibility for action in his command.
Then why was not the Commander of the Eastern District punished?
We cannot have a Debate by question and answer.
Mechanical Transport Men (Pay)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Private J. Hunt, No. 150,140, of the Mechanical Transport, Army Service Corps, serving in France, signed an agreement to receive 6s. per day for the duration of the War on the 16th November, 1915; if he is aware that his pay has been reduced by 2s. per week about four months ago; if he is aware that other men belonging to the same section of the Army Service Corps, and who have joined the Colours since, are receiving the full rate of pay, namely, 6s. per day; and will he take action in the matter?
The enlistment of motor drivers, with pay at 6s. per diem, closed on 10th November, 1915. The only cases in which this rate of pay has been allowed for men who enlisted after that date are those in which the man applied to a recruiting officer for enlistment on or before that date, but owing to delay in completing the necessary formalities was not actually attested until after that date. As my hon. Friend has already been privately informed. Private Hunt's case has been fully investigated, and it was not established that this necessary condition had been fulfilled in his case.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this man was paid the proper rate for about a year and ten months and was then cut off?
Yes; he had the advantage of a higher rate of pay to which he was not entitled.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread dissatisfaction that exists among the mechanical transport men at the tearing up of contracts by his Department?
There has been no contract torn up, except to give a number of men the benefit of the doubt in doubtful cases.
Ordnance Workers (Distinction)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the statement that the admiral-superintendents of home dockyards and other Government establishments have been asked by the Admiralty to recommend employés who have done particularly good service during the War to receive the medal of the Order of the British Empire; and can he say whether it is the intention of the War Office to take similar action as regards employés of the Army Ordnance Departments at His Majesty's gun-wharves, Devonport and Bull Point?
Yes, Sir; steps have been taken to obtain from the Commands lists of recommendations for this medal in the case of employés in Army establishments.
What steps will be taken to have medals and decorations in future in munition factories other than those belonging to the Government?
I think that my hon. Friend ought to put the question to the Departments concerned.
Royal Army Medical Corps (Leave)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether Army Council Instruction, No. A.C. 1, 1564, of 1917, which grants leave from Friday to Tuesday on the authority of local commanding officers, applies also to officers in the Royal Army Medical Corps; and, if so, will he, by circular or otherwise, make this known to all Commands?
The instructions in the Army Council Instruction referred to apply to all officers, including those of the Royal Army Medical Corps, and as these are issued to all concerned no supplementary circular is considered necessary.
Durham Light Infantry (Territorial)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. T. F. Sutcliffe, late captain 7th Durham Light Infantry (Territorial), who obtained a commission as second-lieutenant in 1909, was promoted lieutenant in 1911 and captain in 1914, proceeded to France with his battalion in April, 1915, fought in the second battle of Ypres and in the battle near Hooge on 24th May, and was constantly in the front line trenches until August, 1915, when he broke down in health, was sent to hospital, and was subsequently removed to England; whether he is aware that, after being discharged from hospital and employed on light duty for some months in England, this officer was ordered to rejoin his unit in April, 1916; that up to this date no fault had been found with him, but his commanding officer had written in high terms of his conduct; that on returning to France he was sent to command a platoon doing pioneer work, for which he had hail no training and of which he knew nothing; that in May, 1916, his commanding officer read to him an adverse report on his work between April and August, 1915, and subsequently prepared a second report on his work since rejoining, on which reports he was sent back to England and was told by his commanding officer that he had to report his arrival to the War Office in writing and await orders for posting to a home unit; that in August, 1916, he was gazetted as having relinquished his commission, whereas in fact he had neither done so nor been requested so to do; that no explanation has been offered to him of the treatment he has received and repeated applications for an inquiry have been refused; that Mr. Sutcliffe has been called up under the Military Service Act and that the chairman of the Durham County Appeal Tribunal, Judge Greenwell, commented on the action of the Army authorities and granted him three months' exemption in order to give the authorities an opportunity of holding an inquiry; and whether, in view of the fact that Mr. Sutcliffe was neither court-martialled nor requested to resign his commission, he will restore him to his former rank or institute a full inquiry into the whole case?
This case has been considered by the Army Council, and they have decided that it should not be reopened. It is not proposed to institute an inquiry, but I am communicating with my hon. Friend by letter.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Mr. Sutcliffe's commanding officer stated in his adverse report that he considered him sufficiently efficient to train recruits, and, in replying to the hon. Member for Whitechapel last week, did not the hon. Gentleman state that the War Office did not dismiss men from the Service; and how does he reconcile this statement with the procedure which has been adopted in this case?
The Army Council have got power when an officer is reported upon for inefficiency to take appropriate action. This case was reconsidered on appeal under Section 42 of the Army Act. An appeal was made to His Majesty the King, but the Army Council decided on the facts of the case put forward that the case should not be re-opened.
Is this man a private?
He is.
Is it the fact that this man's case was decided without his having any opportunity of being heard?
I am not quite sure about that. Attention was given to this case by the Army Council, and there was an appeal to His Majesty the King when all the relevant facts were stated.
Is it the usual course for the Army Council to pursue, to gazette a man in this way without giving him an opportunity to be heard?
The actual procedure is that a man is reported upon by his commanding officer, and that report is sent to the Commander-in-Chief. Then it goes before the Army Council, who ask the man to resign his commission. The next step, if he satisfies the Army Council, is that he has an appeal to the King, and the case is reconsidered.
The question which is definitely asked is whether or not this man was called upon to relinquish his commission, and that has not been answered.
Cayeux-Sur-Mer
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that at Cayeux-sur-Mer a public brothel was opened on the main promenade in August last, and that since its opening clandestine prostitution as well as public vice has greatly increased; that when the townspeople sought to obtain the closure of the establishment the mayor in reply to their memorial, while disclaiming responsibility, alleged the presence of a large British convalescent camp as a justification of the existence of such a house; that the French military authorities, writing through General Dubois, told the memorialists that it was at the request of the English military authorities that this brothel was opened; that Colonel Moriarty, the head of the British camp, wrote that the English military authorities had nothing to say to the creation of this establishment, and that the responsibility rested with the French military authorities; whether he will ascertain who is responsible; and whether the British authorities will assist the inhabitants in doing away with this public nuisance?
I am inquiring into this matter, and will inform my hon. and gallant Friend of the result.
Nurses (Supply)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War which of the recommendations of the Committee appointed to inquire into the supply of nurses, of which the hon. Member for Oswestry was chairman, have been carried out; the date at which they were carried out; and whether it is intended to carry out the remainder and, if so, when?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave yesterday to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for York.
May I ask for an answer to the last part of my question, when the recommendations were carried out?
I have given several replies on this subject, and I informed my hon. Friend the Member for York that I would place a full statement of the reforms carried out in the Library.
And the dates?
And the dates.
Buglers (Pay)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the pay of a bugler, as laid down in Article 858, Royal Warrant, is refused to buglers serving in France on the ground that no buglers or drummers are allowed in the field, as all Infantry battalions serving in France are on Part 7, War Establishment; and whether, if, in spite of these Regulations buglers are sent to France, he will issue such orders as are necessary to prevent these soldiers being deprived of pay to which they are entitled under Royal Warrant?
I think the hon. Member is referring to Article 852. The men are enlisted as privates, and only act as buglers under special circumstances, mainly while they are below military age. When they are fit for general service they revert to the rank of private, and can only be paid as such.
Is it the fact that they have an additional penny while in England and that it is deducted when they go to France?
Yes, Sir. They are paid an extra penny for acting as buglers, but when they go to France they cease to act as buglers and revert to the position of privates and are paid as privates.
If they go to France as buglers, are they paid the extra penny?
There are no buglers in France.
Army Ordnance Department
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the rate of wages paid to employés in the Army Ordnance Department, Island Bridge, Dublin, is only 22s., plus 7s. bonus, per week; that no overtime is worked; that the prices of commodities in Dublin are practically the same as those obtaining in London; and whether he will reconsider the claim of these employés to some advance or alternatively submit the matter to the Committee on Production?
As my hon. Friend is aware, the rates of wages of these employés are based on the Fair-Wages Resolution. I am always prepared to reconsider claims on this basis.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the ordnance workers at Carrickfergus are a good deal worse paid than the workers in Dublin, and will the right hon. Gentleman give that matter his attention?
If my hon. and gallant Friend will give me any reason for thinking that they are being paid below the local rate, I will look into the matter.
Does the right hon. Gentleman think, with the present war prices, that 22s. a week, plus 7s. war bonus, is sufficient upon which to keep a man and his family?
One of the rules governing the War Office in this matter is that it depends on the local rate of wages.
They must be starving.
East Sussex War Agricultural Committee
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether there is any reason, and, if so, what for the continued delay in authorising the East Sussex War Agricultural Committee to take the necessary steps to secure the proper cultivation of Chyngton and Sutton farms at Seaford, Sussex; whether he is aware of the state of these farms, and that the work of the committee in inducing the neighbouring farmers to break up fresh grass land when these large farms under Government control are lying practically derelict is a menace to their work in this district; and if he will cause immediate steps to be taken to see that such mismanagement is put an end to?
The Board are aware of the circumstances of this case, and have advised the East Sussex Committee that they should exercise their power by serving notice on the tenant of the land and ordering him to cultivate it in accordance with such requirements as the committee think necessary or desirable. The Board understand that the tenant is ready to cultivate under the directions of the committee, but, in view of the fact that in all probability a further portion of the farms will have to be taken for military training purposes, it is not practicable to secure the production of food from these farms to the same extent as would be the case if the land was not liable to be taken over for military purposes.
Will the hon. Gentleman say why the Food Production Department have failed for months past to give the East Sussex War Agricultural Committee authority to deal with this farm, although repeated applications have been made?
We have now sent down a representative to inquire fully into the matter.
Will the Department compensate a farmer where, having received notice to cultivate land, he immediately does so, and then the War Office come and take possession of that land for some purpose of their own?
This man is a tenant of the War Office.
Welfare of Blind (Committee's Report)
asked the Prime Minister whether there is any intention to introduce, at an early date, legislation to give effect to the recommendations contained in the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Welfare of the Blind; and, if so, at what date?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The principal recommendations of the Committee can, I think, be carried out without legislation. Steps have already been taken to set up special Departments in the Local Government Board and in the Local Government Board for Scotland, and to establish Advisory Committees for England and Wales and for Scotland respectively.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the House is to sit on Friday, and, if so, what will be the business?
I think it will be necessary for the House to sit on Friday, to complete, as I hope, the Representation of the People Bill, and, with this view, I propose to suspend the Eleven o'clock Rule to-morrow night, and possibly the Five o'clock Rule on Friday.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say when he proposes to take the Naval Supplementary Vote?
Some day next week—I cannot say exactly the day.
Is not this done solely to meet the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College?
I do not understand in the least what the hon. Member means. The House has to be guided in this way, and it is my belief that it wishes this to come to an end.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Imports and Exports (Temporary Control) Bill will be taken?
Some day next week, I hope.
May I ask if full notice will be given, as a good many Members have something to say on this Bill?
A great many people have something to say on a great many Bills, but I hope the notice will be given to-morrow in the Statement of Business for next week.
Education (Provision of Meals—Ireland) [Money]
Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of an amount not exceeding one-half of the sums expended out of the rates by local authorities under Section three of the Education (Provision of Meals—Ireland) Act, 1914, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to amend the Education (Provision of Meals—Ireland) Acts, 1914 and 1916—( King's Recommendation signified )—To-morrow.—[ Lord Edmund Talbot .]
Representation of the People Bill
Adjourned Debate resumed on Amendment to proposed Amendment to Question [4 th December ], "That the Bill be now read the third time."
Proposed Amendment, as amended, in lieu of words left out ["now read the third time"], to add the words "recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 8 standing in the name of Secretary Sir George Cave, the Amendment to Clause 18 standing in the name of Mr. Herbert Samuel, and the New Clause and Schedule standing in the name of Secretary Sir George Cave as Amendments to be moved on recommittal."—[ Sir George Cave .]
Amendment proposed to proposed Amendment, as amended, to leave out the words "and the New Clause and Schedule standing in the name of Secretary Sir George Cave as Amendments to be moved on recommittal."—[ Mr. John Redmond .]
Question again proposed, "That the word 'and' stand part of the proposed Amendment, as amended."
In the Debate yesterday the Home Secretary was pressed to state his reasons for introducing this contentious question of Irish redistribution into this agreed Bill. He stated that when the Government were drafting the Bill, and for some time after the passing of the Second Reading, they abstained from any proposal to deal with this question, because they had ground for hope that they would receive shortly from the Irish Convention now sitting in Dublin, a report which would render it unnecessary for the Government to deal with this question of Irish redistribution in the present Bill. Now, having given that as his reason, the sole reason, for abstaining when drafting the Bill from introducing this question, is it not inevitable when the Irish people see at this stage, and at great inconvenience to the House, and with some danger to the whole Bill, that he has departed from that policy and has introduced this contentious question, is it not, I ask, absolutely inevitable that the Irish people should draw the conclusion that, inasmuch as the Government abstained from touching Irish redistribution because they expected a Report from the Irish Convention which would render that course unnecessary, that they have now decided to deal with Irish redistribution because they have ceased to expect a Report from the Irish Convention which would render that course unnecessary. It appears to me that is the logical conclusion, and however opinions may decide to differ as to the logical conclusion, I do most earnestly submit to the House that the conclusion which the Irish people will draw from it is inevitable, and the amount of mischief which will be done in Ireland by this departure is absolutey incalculable. That impression will undoubtedly be greatly strengthened by a sentence which I take leave to quote from the speech of the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Lonsdale), who speaks for the Irish Unionist party. In his speech yesterday he said: sary to provide for the eventuality of an election in Ireland on a new register with the Irish question unsettled. It appears to me that the Government and most Members of this House have really failed to realise the gravity of the Irish situation. When they talk of providing in this light hearted way for the eventuality of an election in Ireland, a General Election, without any settlement of the Irish question, it appears to me that they wholly fail to realise what they are up against in Ireland, and what the situation is. The Irish Secretary yesterday, commenting on the speech after the powerful speech delivered by the hon. Member for North-East Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy) used these words: "All these sayings can only have been inspired by a desire that the Convention should fail." I should like to say to the right hon. Gentleman that he jumped to his conclusion too quickly I think, for it is not always easy to ascertain from the utterances of the hon. Member for North-East Cork what are really his opinions, or what are his true objects.
But, however that may be, whether the speech of the hon. Member for North-East Cork was really as stated by the Chief Secretary, inspired by a desire that the Convention should fail, there cannot be the slightest doubt that there are men in Ireland who, at all events at present, are far more important and far more influential and powerful than the hon. Member for North-East Cork, who do desire that the Convention should fail, and are working hard with that object. The revolutionary party in Ireland, about whom we have heard a good deal in recent Debates, are perfectly open on this subject, perfectly honest. They are working with all their might, and they are now become, thanks to the Government, an extremely powerful and growing party; they are working, and they do not conceal their purpose, to destroy the Convention. Mr. de Valera, their recognised leader, stated in a speech at Waterford about a fortnight ago, and this is only one of many utterances from their leaders, that in his judgment the chief danger to Ireland at present was that it should be humbugged by some bogus settlement agreed to by the Convention, and he has done his very level best to bring the Convention to failure, and, as I say, is perfectly frank and honest in the avowal of his policy. The extremist party in America have left no stone unturned, and their power is great, too, to defeat the Convention.
4.0 P.M.
Therefore, you have got the whole of the revolutionary party in Ireland determined to defeat the Convention, and you have also got the remnant of the old ascendancy party in Ireland, who are by no means a negligible quantity, and who look to a settlement in the Convention with horror, as the end of that system which they have defended in this House and outside this House for generations with a doggedness and courage, and ability in some respects, that was worthy of a better cause. They look to a settlement by the Convention as the end of that which meant to them power and position, and all the sweets of office in Ireland for many generations. They are doing their best to defeat the Convention. The Belfast Unionist Press, the "Northern Whig," and the "Belfast Newsletter," who speak for a large section still, openly avow, and they use language very like what we heard from the Member for North-East Cork yesterday in the House, and ridicule the Convention as a fraud, and they openly speak, those great newspapers, and they are great newspapers, of the preposterous farce and comedy that is being played in Dublin, and say, "Whatever decision the Convention comes to, the waste-paper basket must be its destination." Therefore, you have those great forces at work in Ireland from opposite sides, the extremists on both sides, who are determined by any and by every means to bring this great effort to failure. And what I say is this, that I think the House of Commons fails utterly to realise the gravity of the action they are now taking. If the Government were in the pay of Sinn Fein they could not do more to strengthen it than by the action they are taking here, because they are doing all in their power to create an atmosphere in Ireland that will be fatal to the success of the Convention. What is it Sinn Fein is founded upon? Sinn Fein is founded upon the revolutionary movement in Ireland; upon the long delays and the many disappointments and breaches of faith with which we have been met in this House. The leaders—many of them—of this movement are honest and sincere men. Their chief stock-in-trade and their political capital has been all along, "Look at these men who represent you in Parliament, they have become tame; they no longer fight the British Government; they have in recent years, by their actions, proved that they have placed the interests of this Empire before the interests of Ireland. What is the reward they get?" That is the greatest argument of Sinn Fein. They say, "Look at the position of the Irish party now! Why, the Government that is in power is under the control of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College, does not even deign to consult the Irish Members when they have come to heel, and become loyal supporters of the Empire. They are treated with contempt; not even a semblance or pretence of consideration is shown to them." That is the language that is heard on every platform in Ireland. How can we go back to Ireland and contradict it, after the way we have been treated in connection with this matter? Here we are, still representing the vast, the overwhelming majority of the Irish people. Here is a great question of Irish policy, not concerned, as the hon. Member for North Londonderry (Mr. Barrie) tried to induce the House to believe the other day, a small matter of only transferring four seats to the Unionist party in Ulster. No! It is concerned with great issues. Yet in these deep, far-reaching issues—as I shall show in a few moments—in this important matter we have in the whole of this transaction, in the change of policy of the Government, the whole disgrace of rushing this business through under the cloak of an agreed measure; this highly-contentious business has been carried through without ever taking our opinion, consulting us, or attaching the slightest weight to our opinion. They are putting the very argument for Sinn Fein. Could there be a stronger justification for Sinn Fein? Let the Government make no mistake about it. They are doing their level best by this procedure to increase the power of the revolutionary party in Ireland. That is the effect it will have.
Let me turn for a moment to this: The Government by this proposal—and I am taking now the very words of the hon. Baronet who speaks for the Unionist party—have turned their minds to prepare for the eventuality of a failure of the Convention, and an election in Ireland before any settlement of the Irish question takes place. I assume that that means that they are considering the question of possibly no settlement of the Irish question before the month of July next—that is about the time the register will be ready. Have they really thought what that means? Have the Government seriously considered what they will be up against? Supposing they pass this against our protests and send us back to Ireland with a message that the voice of the overwhelming majority, four to one of the representation of Ireland, has no weight whatever with this Government in regard to Irish affairs? If they send us back with that message to face Sinn Fein, have they seriously considered what they are up against? Have they realised that the moment—if it be true, which God forbid—the Convention fails to agree—and the Convention cannot last much longer; it is a matter of weeks, and I assume it will report before Christmas; it certainly cannot be many weeks—have they considered what they will be up against when the Convention reports if it does not give an agreed Report upon which Parliament can immediately act? I tell you, Mr. Speaker, that in that event you will have to govern Ireland by the naked sword.
Supporters of the Empire!
Yes. We have tried to support the Empire, but by the pigheaded stupidity of your Governments and the War Office you have united the whole of Ireland for Sinn Fein. That is what you are doing.
And smash the Irish party!
You will have to govern Ireland in that event—which, I say, God forbid—by the naked sword, by martial law. You have martial law in full force there now, but it will be a very different martial law if the Convention fails. It is all very well for certain gentlemen in Ireland, who, I know very well are longing for such a state of affairs; men who were urging the Chief Secretary the other day to a massacre in Ireland. We were mighty near to it. [A laugh.] I can tell you you would not have laughed if the thing had come off. These gentlemen urged on the Government to this course. I put it to hon. Members with what face will you meet the world? With what face will you meet others in the negotiations for peace, of with what face will you carry on the War if you have this skeleton in your cupboard? You talk about your championship of small nationalities, with Ireland again under martial law, and governed without any pretence of liberty or any hope of liberty. Sometimes hon. Members taunt us, and apparently rejoice in taunting us, with the fact that in this election which you are preparing for, we shall be wiped out. That is quite likely. I think it is extremely likely that we will disappear, but does any responsible Member—
May I say that I should be the last to show any pleasure, or feel pleased, at the disappearance of the present Nationalist party in this House? I have said so in this House.
I am very much obliged to the hon. Baronet for saying that. In the last Debate he taunted us with the fact that the revolutionary party were gaining upon us, and that we would suffer in the election. It is true. I am sorry for it. I think it is exceedingly likely—it is quite possible—that if this policy is persisted in and no settlement arrived at before the General Election for which you are now preparing, that the Irish people may lose all faith in their representation in this House and say: "What is the use of sending members to the House of Commons to be treated with utter contempt? We will have recourse to revolutionary methods," which the young men in the country are now largely turning to. I think it is disastrous. I have not the slightest illusion as to what the result will be, but the horror of the situation is this: that there is still a party of men in Ireland who would rejoice at it, because they would say: "Now you see; take the Home Rule Act; it is wiped off the slate. You cannot have a Home Rule Act now; you have nothing but pro-Germans and rebels on the one side and Loyalists on the other; the Castle in Dublin must be built up and reconstructed, and the bad old system shall forthwith be put into working order again, for it is the only system by which you can govern the country. That is why I say that in my judgment the Government and the House do not realise the gravity of the issues with which we are now dealing.
That brings me to a complaint, a complaint which I have frequently made before, but which I must make again with greater force. One of the enormous difficulties of the present situation is that we really have no Government to deal with—no responsible Government! As for Ireland, we have no Government at all. Instead of that we have a few military officers. Ireland has really, properly speaking, no Government. We have not got much to boast of even in this country. The difficulty we are in is that when we are endeavouring to make our case we are face to face with men who have no power. They do not believe in this policy. They are simply acting under orders. The men in the new system by which this country is ruled, the men who have the real power, do not come down to the House of Commons at all. They send down envoys, or subordinates, who cannot go outside their instructions. Therefore it is a most futile and exasperating process that we are obliged to conduct these Debates at all, because we know perfectly well who is at the bottom of this. It is notorious. There is no concealment abut it. This enterprise of dealing with Irish redistribution is the work and the orders of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College. Absolutely! Everybody knows it! The Secretary for Ireland has no power in the matter. Does anybody in his senses imagine that the Home Secretary would of his own motion have ever imported this question into these Debates? The Bill was nearly through. It had passed through in triumph as an agreed measure. Whatever small matters of disagreement there were took very little time, and the Bill, without a parallel in the history of Bills of a similar character and in the whole constitutional history of this country, had had a fair passage, and was practically through. Does anybody imagine that the Home Secretary would be insane enough to import into this whole subject a highly contentious matter, such as the redistribution in Ireland, if he had had his own choice, if he had been his own master, so departing from the traditional custom of the House of Commons? The men in charge of the Bill have no power over the Bill. They cannot make concessions or remodel the Bill. They must take their orders, and the men who are in power will not come down to the House of Commons. In my opinion, if it goes on much longer, this kind of thing will abolish altogether the power of the House of Commons, and turn it into a purely debating society.
It has been said already, and I need not dwell on it, that this procedure on the part of the Member for Trinity College is a very great outrage on the Speaker's Conference. It is unquestionably an absolute departure from the findings of the Conference. There is no use in pretending that it is anything else. The finding of the Conference was that they would decline to deal with this subject at all because it was contained in the Home Rule Act, and for a second reason, because the Convention in Dublin was dealing with it Therefore it is idle for the Home Secretary to endeavour to get round the matter and say that the Speaker's Conference did not deal with the matter at all. It did deal with it by declaring that they abstained from dealing with it, and that, in their judgment, it could not be made part of an agreed settlement. That is certainly the case. I have here what I think has not been alluded to before, a speech made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland. This is a very important matter, because it is perfectly clear that the Chief Secretary was against the policy of including this subject in the present Bill. Speaking on the 17th October here, the Chief Secretary said: It undoubtedly was the opinion of the entire House of Commons that the Chief Secretary was of opinion that it ought to be postponed. It is perfectly plain the Chief Secretary since then got his orders, and was obliged to assent to the introduction of this controversial matter. Therefore, I say it is plain that the introduction of this was not due to anybody from Ireland, or anybody who is acquainted intimately with the nature of the situation in Ireland, but comes from this side, and is really an attempt to snatch a mean party advantage from the introduction of this highly contentious matter, sneaking it through the House under the cloak of an agreed Bill like this. What plainly ought to be done with any sense of fairness or any sense of real reponsibility in the present Government? They ought to wait for a few weeks; it may be only a couple of weeks—three weeks at the outside, I should say—till the Convention reports. Then, if the Convention fails to agree, the whole situation can be reviewed, and if the Government then, acting on their responsibility, decide that it is necessary to bring in redistribution for Ireland, it can be brought in frankly as a controversial Bill, and as a separate Bill. There would be ample time, because it would not interfere in any way with the construction of the registers; but, at all events, there is ample time so far as Ireland is concerned. The Bill could be brought in, say, at the beginning of the next Session, if the Government, after full consideration, decided it was necessary to do so. Then the thing could be done decently. It has not been done decently now. We could have a full Debate as to the principles on which redistribution could be carried out in Ireland, and a time could be given to the people locally interested to represent their case. Of course, I myself would be strongly opposed to such a course, but that, from the point of view of the Government, would be the only honourable course, if, in their judgment, they decided that redistribution was necessary. It would involve, undoubtedly—and that is a decision that ought not to be taken without full time for thought and consideration—what I have already alluded to—that is, the government of Ireland by martial law, and the abandonment for the present of all hope of reconciling the Irish people to the Union. If they decided on such a course it ought to be done in all seriousness as a separate matter. To bring it in in this Bill, which is an agreed Bill, is a perfect outrage—an outrage on the Irish people, in the first instance, an outrage on the Speaker's Conference, and an outrage on the House of Commons.
These are the grounds on which I am absolutely and irreconcilably opposed to the whole of this policy of dealing with redistribution at present. When the hon. Baronet the Member for Mid-Armagh (Sir J. Lonsdale) appealed to us, and said that our intolerance in this matter was a bad omen for our relations with the Ulster people, he was entirely wrong, because our attitude in this matter is, as I have tried to explain, based on the hope of settlement, and his criticism ought to be directed, when the time comes, to the proposals made by our representatives in that Convention. If in the Convention, about which I know nothing, and do not intend to say anything, our representatives had insisted upon anything approaching to unfair treatment of Ulstermen or Unionists, then, indeed, he might say that we were showing an intolerant spirit; but it is not just to say it now, because our opposition to this—at least, I speak for myself—my irreconcilable opposition to this proposal is not a question of a few seats, although I think this is a more important matter than the hon. Member for Derry (Mr. Barrie) sought to make out, but because I take it as a mark and sign that these people, who are so eager about redistribution in Ireland, have made up their minds that there is to be no settlement in Ireland, and they are going to fight the old fight at the next General Election.
There is one other point, and that is the question of the legality of this thing. The Home Rule Act is law; it is on the Statute Book, and to-morrow, or next week, or three months hence, it might come into operation without any further legislation in this House or any other House. It is only the withdrawal, or cancelling or non-issuing, of a further Proclamation. It is the law of the land. Can we go on to carry out this redistribution in Ireland without repealing portions of the Home Rule Act, which is the law, and which has dealt fully with this business? If we can, what would be the legal position, say, next month, supposing the Home Rule Act were allowed to come into law? What would be the law? Would this redistribution, if we passed it, be the law, or would the Home Rule Act be the law? It certainly is against all precedent, so far as I remember the procedure of this House, to pass a law conflicting absolutely with the law actually in operation without repealing that other Act, and I want to know now from the Government whether they propose to put into this non-contentious measure Clauses repealing certain portions of the Home Rule Act, and, if not, how they propose to deal with that question. The hon. Member for Derry, in his speech, said it was very difficult to get the House to grasp what a small matter this thing was—only the transfer of four or five seats to the Unionists in Ulster. a small matter! That is a very curious phrase to come from an Irishman—I believe he is not an Irishman—at any rate, from a man who has lived many years in Ireland, and who has been considerably mixed up with Irish affairs. A small matter—the transfer of only four or five seats to the Unionist party. That small matter rakes up the fires of centuries, and is it wise; is it not reckless folly to embark on such adventures at a time when every responsible man, and surely every friend of Ireland, is longing to give the Convention a chance?
A small matter! Why, I recollect when we all went, at the King's invitation, to Buckingham Palace at that momentous conference, the failure of which, I fear, contributed to the present world-disaster in no small measure. There is no doubt that the impression created by the state of affairs then existing was a contributing cause of the declaration of war. There is no doubt about that at all. Every authority is agreed about that. And what was the small matter that broke us up at the Conference? It was this very question of Ulster—of certain districts of Ulster. We might have settled that matter and had peace now for a very much smaller matter than what the hon. Member for Derry calls a small matter. You cannot touch these ancient controversies, around which the divided races of Ireland have struggled and fought for generations, without rousing all the bitter passion which it has been our part, so far as we could, to allay. You are, by embarking on these courses, throwing fresh fuel—heaps of fresh fuel—of the most inflammable character on the fires that are hardly banked down in Ireland, ready to blaze out. I implore Members of the House of Commons to show on this occasion some sense of responsibility, and to help us to hold the fort in Ireland for peace and reconciliation, and not by your action upon this occasion to strengthen the hands of the revolutionary party who are endeavouring—blindly, as I think, and not realising what they are doing—to reopen one more bloody chapter in the history of Ireland, and undo all the work that we have succeeded in doing for the last forty years.
I think that Members of this House who have listened to the speech of the hon. Gentleman for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon)—at any rate, the earlier parts of it—will have thought that it was a curious speech in some respects delivered upon a question which arises in connection with a Reform Bill. The hon. Gentleman thought fit to go into matters far beyond the purview of any measure which might give redistribution to Ireland and extension of the franchise to the United Kingdom. He went into grave matters of Irish policy, matters of Irish history, matters which, on a question of this sort, were not only irrelevant, but were calculated to stir up passions, which I, at any rate, have no desire to do myself. But I must refer to one or two of the more extreme statements which he made. The hon. Gentleman said that it was the desire of the Unionists of Ulster to wreck the Convention.
Oh, no—a remnant.
I think the impression he conveyed was that it was the desire of what he called the ascendancy party to wreck this Convention.
I said a remnant of the ascendancy party.
A remnant of the ascendancy party, but, at the same time, he referred to the great and powerful papers of Belfast which he said supported the remnant of the ascendancy party. I do not withdraw from my contention that the impression which he gave to the House was that the Unionist party in Ireland, which I represent, would at any rate be pleased if the Government came to naught. I think anybody who heard yesterday the eloquent and moving speech of the hon. Member for North Derry (Mr. Barrie) will be quite convinced that so far as we are concerned there is not one jot or atom of truth in the suggestion that it is our desire to see this great effort at the final settlement of the Irish question brought to naught. The hon. Member referred to the possibility, which of course must be faced, that perhaps the Convention would fail, and he told us, in words used not long ago by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Waterford, that if the Convention fails you will have to govern Ireland by the naked sword. I do not believe that the statesmanship of this Empire has yet sunk so low that there is no alternative but that.
At any rate I would say that whatever the position may be in Ireland under circumstances created by a failure of the Irish Convention, you could not have a much worse position than we are in to-day in Ireland. At this moment there are large districts of Ireland, as hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway know well, which are dominated by the revolutionary party to which the hon. Member referred. I know myself instances of soldiers belonging to the 16th Division who have come home on leave from France, and who have, by reason of the action of the Sinn Fein party in their districts, found the greatest difficulty in going about their daily avocations. Are those men not living under conditions quite as bad as any government could be under what has been called the naked sword? The position of many Irish soldiers who have nothing whatever to do with the North of Ireland or the Unionist party, and the position of many law-abiding Irish people in all parts of the country, could not be worse than it is now whatever form of government it will be necessary to adopt in the event of the Irish Convention failing.
I must reiterate what has been said from these benches during this Debate, namely, that this is not the great matter which the hon. Member for East Mayo would have us believe. It is a comparatively small matter in itself. It seems to me that the anomalies in Irish representation were so great that one is really astounded on looking at the Blue Book to see how small the change is which it is proposed to carry out. You are going to do away with four small boroughs with an average population of 12,000 or 13,000. You are going to take away one member from six counties, and those seats which are taken away are going to be added primarily to the great city of Belfast, the great city of Dublin, the county of Dublin, and, I think, one in county Down, but that does not alter the number of representatives in the county. Practically it means that you are taking away, strictly in accordance with the population basis, a certain number of members in the outlying small and sparsely populated country districts in Ireland, and you are giving the bulk of those members to the great centres of population, like the great cities of Belfast and Dublin, whose population has increased since the last redistribution in Ireland.
I cannot for the life of me see how a question of this sort, which is purely a matter of justice, can by any right or decent feeling be made the absurd grievance and the calamity which hon. Members below the Gangway consider it to be in all the speeches which they have addressed to the House on this subject. The hon. Gentleman who has just spoken, who rightly calls himself a democrat of the deepest dye, has consistently in this House during the whole course of his long tenure of a seat in it advocated every measure for extending Liberal principles in the United Kingdom, and yet hon. Members below the Gangway, who are supporters of Liberal principles, get up here and say that this matter of justice, right and equity is a fraud, a trick and a disgraceful action, whereas it is simply a measure of justice which will give to the large centres of population of the country the representation which they are perfectly entitled to receive.
In proof of what I have said let me say that the great city of Belfast is one of the largest industrial centres in the United Kingdom. It is the heart of the great shipbuilding industry, and it is the centre of the linen industry. At this moment Belfast is turning out large numbers of ships for our mercantile marine, masses of munitions, and a large number of aeroplanes. Do you say that those men who are helping the Empire and turning out all these munitions of war are to be denied their just share of representation in this House? Are you going to give to the smallest centres of population in Ireland a larger representation than is their due? Such a thing is unheard of and iniquitous. I would go as far as to say that I should be very surprised indeed if when the City of Belfast returns its nine members to this House we do not see some of them sitting on the Labour Benches opposite, and yet the hon. Member for East Mayo is a democrat. I am afraid it is true, that with exceptions, and I have no doubt the hon. Member for East Mayo is one, the Tories from Ireland do not sit on these benches, but they sit on the benches opposite. On the whole, I think it is not untrue to say that in many respects many members of the Irish Nationalist party are far less inclined on the merits to support matters of Liberal policy than many hon. Members who have come from the North of Ireland, and the part of the country which I represent. Some extraordinary statements were made during the course of the Debate yesterday to which I should like to refer. I think it was necessary to make those statements, and to deal with this question in the way in which it was dealt with, because on the merits of the question as a whole there is really no answer to give to it. The Act of Union was quoted. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. Herbert Samuel) quoted the Act of Union as supporting his contention that you could not possibly reduce the representation of Ireland to its proper proportion according to population. I am not going to deal with that matter now, but the right hon. Gentleman said that the Act of Union provided for a representation of 103 in Ireland.
No, it provided for only 100.
The Act of Union roughly provides for 101. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland argued that it would be impossible to deal with this question upon what he admitted was the only logical way of dealing with Irish representation; namely, upon the basis of population similar to the whole of the United Kingdom. He said that you cannot deal with it in that way because of the Act of Union. Another hon. Member opposite said that if the Convention failed, and if again we had to consider this matter seriously on the supposition of the reopening of the whole of the Irish question, the only fair way of dealing with it was on the proper proportional basis of a similar basis of representation throughout the United Kingdom. Another hon. Member on these benches read extracts from the Act of Union, which he quoted in support of his argument, and he said that the Act of Union was a treaty between Great Britain and Ireland which under no circumstances should ever be altered. And yet every one of those hon. Members to whom I have referred during the years 1912, 1913 and 1914 were spending the best hours of their Parliamentary time in an effort not to change the Act of Union, but to wipe it out altogether. I submit that it is impossible to reconcile these statements with the actions which are known to have been adopted by the hon. Gentlemen to whom I have referred. The Act of Union has already been broken. It was Mr. Gladstone himself who was the first to break it by disestablishing the Church of Ireland. If the Act of Union is a treaty, no comma of which is to be altered, then the action of Mr. Gladstone in disestablishing the Irish Church was a breach of the Act of Union. These arguments about the Act of Union are really beside the point which we are dealing with now. There were two arguments put forward yesterday and this afternoon which I think deserve a little careful answer. First of all it is said that the Home Rule Bill is on the Statute Book, that it provides for the representation of Ireland, and, so long as it is there, you cannot deal with the question of Irish redistribution. Now the Home Rule Act has been on the Statute Book from the very day when it left this House, subject to adjustment on the question of Ulster, and the right hon. Gentleman the late Prime Minister (Mr. Asquith), before the Bill left the House, gave a promise of an amending Bill to deal with the difficulty of Ulster.
Do you place any reliance on the promise of a British Prime Minister?
That was a promise given by the Prime Minister and, short though my experience in this House may be, I still do place reliance on pledges definitely, publicly, and openly made.
And broken!
Definitely, publicly, and openly made by a British Prime Minister. The Home Rule Act has always been subject to an amending Bill on the question of Ulster. Various efforts have been made to settle the Irish question on the basis of the exclusion of Ulster and in other ways, but these have hitherto failed. It cannot be denied that the Home Rule Act of 1914 has been practically abrogated by hon. Members who sit below the Gangway. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] As a solution of the Irish question it has been practically abrogated by them. And why? For very cogent reasons. First of all, there is the existence of Sinn Feinism. Do hon. Members below the Gangway seriously suggest that, under the present conditions in Ireland, the Home Rule Act of 1914 is a right settlement of the Irish question? They do not answer that.
No, because it is the law.
For another reason they appear to have practically abrogated that Act. They came into the Irish Convention. They asked for it.
No!
Nothing of the kind!
The Prime Minister in his letter suggested conditions for the settlement of the Irish question which we were willing on this side to accept, but hon. Members below the Gangway would not, and then it was that the Government put forward the suggestion of solution by means of a Convention. Hon. Members below the Gangway chose that alternative, and. I think all reasonable persons must agree that the action of the Irish Nationalist party during the last few months shows conclusively that they have abrogated, as a serious settlement of the Irish question under present conditions, the Home Rule Act of 1914. The second argument which I think deserves some answer is that we must await the Report of the Convention, and we must not enter into these controversial matters until the Convention has given us cause to know whether or not it can solve the Irish problem. With regard to that, the Home Secretary has stated that the Convention has been delayed much longer than was anticipated when it began its labours. The right hon. Gentleman stated it was his opinion that the Convention would have reported ere this, but the Government still very much hope for its success. That may be so, but we have still to face the possibility that it may be a failure. The Convention is being looked upon undoubtedly throughout this country and throughout the Empire—and I may say beyond the Empire, because the United States of America are closely and intimately connected with the question—the Convention is being looked upon by men in all parts of the civilised world with feelings of hope and with an intense desire that it may be able to find a solution of this question which, for ages, has divided Great Britain from Ireland. But much as I hope that the Convention may succeed in its deliberations, we must face the prospect that circumstances may arise which may make success impossible, and, if that be so, then we shall have to face the situation which will be created. I do not think that the resources of British statesmanship to deal with Ireland are at an end, and if the Convention fails it seems to me that we can only face the situation which will then arise with a representation of Ireland in this House, where the question will have to be dealt with, which is truly representative of the real feelings of the many sections of Irish opinion.
On a point of Order. The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) has raised a very difficult point, and I would like to ask your ruling upon it. It is with reference to this Bill taking precedence over the Home Rule Act. I have the Standing Orders before me, and they state that the object of a public Bill is to alter the general law. I understand that the Home Rule Act has altered the general law. If the Bill now under consideration becomes law, will it take precedence over the Home Rule Act?
That is a hypothetical question, which when it occurs the Courts of Law will have to settle.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain O'Neill) who last spoke has, with the hereditary talent which we all recognise, made a very able speech, but he has displayed much ability this afternoon in getting away from the true issue in the controversy in which the House is engaged on this matter of redistribution. Before I immediately address myself to that point I propose, if permitted, to deal with one or two points which the hon. and gallant Gentleman raised just before sitting down, namely, the position of this House in regard to what is known as the Amending Bill, and also his statement of the abrogation by my hon. Friend, on these benches of the Home Rule Act of 1914. I would remind the House that the Amending Bill, which was introduced in another place, contained no provisions whatever of a redistributive character. There were no proposals for Irish redistribution in the Bill, even as amended by the Lords themselves. The Amending Bill, if I understand it aright, was conversant with what we regarded at the time temporary adjustment of the Ulster difficulty, and to suggest that the Amending Bill provided—and the only meaning that could attach to the hon. and gallant Member's argument was that it did provide—for a redistribution scheme in Ireland is utterly unfounded. Then the hon. and gallant Gentleman said that we who sit on these benches had abrogated the Home Rule Act. Nothing could be further from the truth than that, and I am sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman would be the first to admit that the Irish party to-day stand as they have always stood since the 18th August, 1914, on the Home Rule Act which, as the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) reminded the House, is the law of the land. There may be many things in that Act which, if we had unfettered discretion, we would not ourselves have introduced or approved. But the fact remains it is the law of the land, and as such we stand by it.
5.0 P.M.
I have said that the hon. and gallant Gentleman has gone away from the true issue in this matter. I do not propose at this stage to debate the controversy again or to go over the ground which has been so amply covered by other speakers regarding the breach of faith. I had the privilege, in common with two colleagues, to be a member of the Conference presided over by Mr. Speaker, and the point has been very emphatically made by hon. Member after hon. Member that in the introduction by the Government of these proposals for redistribution a breach of faith has been committed. I will not dwell on that, and neither do I propose to dwell on the fact that in introducing these redistribution proposals the Government is actually going in the teeth of Mr. Speaker's Conference. All that has been fully gone into by previous speakers, and the only point I have risen to try and make is this: That, whatever may be said about the justice or injustice of these proposals for redistribution in Ireland, the present moment is peculiarly inopportune for their introduction. It is not alone peculiarly inopportune. It presents features of very grave difficulty. It might be that at another time and under different circumstances redistribution proposals might be introduced into this House, and much could be said for them from the point of view of hon. Members above the Gangway. I am willing to concede that. But for my own part, in common with the hon. Member for East Mayo and with every other colleague who sits on this Bench, I think a tremendous case can be made by the Irish Nationalists against any scheme of redistribution not settled by an Irish Parliament in Dublin. I submit that the Government could not possibly have selected a more unfortunate time for the introduction of proposals such as these than this moment, and that is borne out by the attitude of the Government itself. When the Bill was introduced there was not a single word in its four corners about redistribution, and clearly at that time the Government recognised the inexpediency of introducing it. As the hon. Member for East Mayo has pointed out, the Chief Secretary, in a very remarkable speech on the 17th of last October, showed clearly by the statements he made—and, speaking for myself, I believe the views the right hon. Gentleman then expressed are still more strongly held by him to-day—the inexpediency and inopportunism of these proposals. The test is a very simple one. Every thoughtful Irishman, whether he sits on these benches or on those, recognises that the present moment is one for softening bitterness and promoting unity, and if you wanted to devise a means of introducing bitterness and promoting disunion you could not take a course better than the course the Government has taken in this matter. I have referred to the right hon. and learned Gentleman's speech, as the hon. Member for Mayo has done. As a matter of fact the hon. Member for Mayo has anticipated me in one quotation which he has made from that remarkable speech, and therefore I do not propose to read it again; but there is another statement, which I would characterise as one of immense weight, coming from the right hon. and learned Gentleman in the same speech, and it is this: hon. and learned Gentleman of the experience of the Chief Secretary of the day comes down to this House and tells us that it is his deliberate opinion that the proper place to deal with the question of redistribution is in the Bill which he hopes may result from the labours of the Convention, I say that the Government—
It is not confined to redistribution; it is the whole question.
No!
The right hon. and learned Gentleman was dealing in the passage to which I referred with the question of redistribution, and he used distinctly the words which there is no necessity for me to repeat. Anyone reading those words, and still more anyone listening to them, would regard them as significant—and I may say that that statement was regarded as a very significant statement made on the occasion on which it was made, inasmuch as it followed, with an interval of two or three speeches, that of the Home Secretary himself. I say you cannot attach too much importance and significance to a statement coming from such an eminent member of the Government, and the member charged with the management of Irish affairs. Before I pass from that point may I suggest this? That speech was made on the 17th October. A great deal of ground has been covered since then, and what I submit is that the case for refraining from dealing with redistribution proposals to-day, by reason of the sittings of the Convention, is even stronger than it was on the 17th October. We cannot know what the proceedings in the Convention are; we can only, like my hon. and gallant Friend, hope for a successful termination of those proceedings. Nevertheless, I am but repeating what is a very fervently held hope at the moment, that the Convention will result in a lasting settlement of the Irish controversy, and if that be so—as I believe profoundly it is the hope not only of my hon. Friends who sit with me on these benches, but of hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway, as has been evidenced by the speech to which we have just listened and by that yesterday of the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Barrie), himself a member of the Convention—what a terrible pity that at this moment proposals for redistribution that can only be passed into law on the assumption that the Convention is going to fail should be brought forward!
There is only one other point with which I should like to deal before I sit down, and it is this: The hon. and gallant Gentleman referred to the justice of the case and the improved position in which parties would be. I advisedly use that word, because I do not want it to be thought that he was claiming that it would give a great accession of strength to the Unionist party, but at the same time I noticed that he was very careful not to forecast with too great a degree of accuracy what the result of this proposal would be. He said—and those of us familiar with labour conditions in Ireland agree with him—that very likely as the result of these proposals there will be a Labour representation from Ireland for the first time, and that primarily from the great city of Belfast. He assumed that to be the case, and assuming, as I am prepared to assume, that there would be a representation given to Unionists in the City of Dublin, I ask him and his Friends what really in figures will that gain amount to at the very best? If my information is correct—and I do not pose as a registration authority—at the very out side five additional Unionist members will be returned for Belfast. If he wishes, I will make it six, but assuming that five additional Unionist members are returned for Belfast, I will ask him to assume that one Unionist member for Dublin is re turned under the new scheme. That is a total of six. I will even make him a present of the case of Down, and make the total seven. Does he seriously suggest that all this controversy, all this fighting and bitterness—because it does import bitterness, as the hon. Member for Mayo pointed out—is worth while for the sake of seven seats? I put it on that ground, and on that ground alone. Let us look ahead a little further. Supposing the Convention breaks down—
My whole point was that it is a small matter.
And that is my point. If it is a small matter, why the necessity for all this controversy?
Other hon. Members have made the whole point of their speeches that it is a matter of vast importance.
I am, of course, only dealing to the best of my ability with the speech which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has made, and my argument is that if it be such a small matter—and I take his words—what, in Heaven's name, is the good of all this fighting and controversy? What is the good of all that? Let me travel further, and with this point I have done. Supposing the Convention comes to an end, an unsuccessful end, and that a new House is constituted under these proposals Supposing these proposals become law and the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his friends—I am assuming the case from his point of view—secure seven additional Unionist seats from Ireland in this House. It has been said that the Irish Parliamentary party as it is now known will be wiped out. I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member for Mayo will think me very venturesome when I venture to differ from him in the gloomy forecast he made as to the result of a general election in Ireland. It is, I grant, a dangerous thing to prophesy, but I cannot help thinking that when a general election comes a greater number of Members of the Irish Parliamentary party will be returned again than many people, particularly on the other side of the House, dream. But supposing none of them are returned, it follows that the Irish representation, other than the Unionists, will be a Sinn Fein representation. [HON. MEMBERS: "They will not be here!"] That is exactly the point I wished to make. They will not be here; they will refuse to come. If that is so, what does it matter whether the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his friends have seven or sixty-seven seats? The Sinn Feiners will not be here, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his friends can do what they like with Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] They can pass any Bills they like.
Captain O'NEILL rose—
I am sure the hon. and gallant Gentleman will allow me, because I followed, as I should, with great attention and interest the admirable and cogent speech he addressed to the House, as he always does. But take it at that; that no single Member of the Irish Parliamentary party as we know it to-day is returned to this House as a Member, as a power for good in the interests of Ireland, then the hon. and gallant Gen- tleman and his friends do not want these six or seven additional members. Let us take it the other way, and the way I am prepared to assume, that it there is an election on the basis of this Bill the Irish Parliamentary party will be returned, perhaps in its full strength, and certainly in little-impaired strength. I submit to the hon. and gallant Gentleman—and he is a Parliamentary hand now of some experience—that these six or seven seats will not make such a difference against a party numbering fifty or sixty. I do not, however, want to emphasise points of an argumentative character, but rather to appeal to the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his friends—and particularly to the hon. Baronet the Member for Mid-Armagh (Sir J. Lonsdale), who, as the Chief of the party above the Gangway, is, of course, entitled to expect that any views he may express to the House will be received with the greatest respect—I would appeal to them, and to the Government, following the example set by my hon. Friend the Member for Mayo, even at this stage not to press these proposals, not to press redistribution on Ireland; and on the ground, on the sole ground, of the inopportuneness of the occasion. The Convention is sitting, and we all hope that if not before Christmas very shortly after Christmas, conclusions will be arrived at by the most representative body that has ever sat in Ireland, and that the Irish controversy will be settled at long last for good and for all. In view of that, I do most earnestly ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his friends and the Government not to press these proposals.
There is a field not very far away from this House where Irishmen of every class and creed are fighting side by side together. Some of them are Unionists, thousands of them are Nationalists, and we have been told over and over again that these Irishmen are fighting together, and many of them, unhappily, are dying together, in the great cause which the Allied powers are fighting to-day. Those men have made sacrifices. They had their own political convictions just as strongly as any of us who sit in this House, but they put them aside and went out there and fought together, and died together, as brother Irishmen. Cannot we make a sacrifice on a much smaller, and a much less important, field by putting aside and dropping this contentious proposal? I know it may be said, "Practice what you preach," but I would remind hon. Gentlemen that we did not introduce this discussion. The Government did not introduce it originally. It emanated from the hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway, and with all the sincerity of which I am capable—and I am sure that hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway will give us credit for sincerity—I ask them to abandon this fight, and to get up and say, through one of their spokesmen, "In view of the sittings of the Convention and the hope we entertain as to its successful termination, we abandon this fight for redistribution, and we will stand side by side for an Ireland which is yours as well as ours."
I rise to support the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. J. Redmond). Listening to this discussion one would think that it was "A Win-the-War Debate." It surprises me that so much of the precious time of the House is wasted discussing a matter which neither affects the Unionists nor the Nationalists of Ireland to any great extent. The Government composed as it is cannot be termed either a Coalition Government or a Loyal Government. If they were loyal, they would not have introduced this contentious matter for the purpose only of handing over a few seats to the Unionists of Ulster. Some people are under the impression that the people in Ireland take no interest in this matter, but such is not the case. I happen to be the representative of one of the constituencies for the county of Leitrim, and it is proposed to reduce the representation of that county from two members to one. The people there take a lively interest in the matter and they have passed a resolution which later I will read to the House. It is very unfair to reduce the representation of the county of Leitrim, particularly having regard to the fact that it extends over an area of 50 miles and is an agricultural county. It has been said that this Redistribution Bill is fair on the basis of the population of Ireland. It will have the effect of taking away seats from the rural districts and handing them over to the Unionist members in Ulster, thus taking away the representation of the old inhabitants of the rural and agricultural districts and adding to that of the population in the cities of Belfast and Dublin, who are not by any means permanent inhabitants, but who, so to speak, are birds of passage. People who are there to vote at one election may not perhaps be there to vote at the next election. County Leitrim extends over an area of 51 miles and there is very poor road accommodation. People in some instances have to travel four or five miles in mountainous districts in order to get to their homes, and it will be impossible for any one member to look after the interests of the people in that agricultural district. I will take the liberty of reading to the House a resolution passed by the Manorhamilton Board of Guardians and Rural District Council at a recent meeting: are in favour of honesty, justice, and fair play, and if every constituency, let it be Unionist, Nationalist, or even Sinn Fein, having a fair representation in this House. Of course, the Sinn Feiners, if elected, will not come to this House, but by their action in this small matter the Government have given a great impetus to the Sinn Fein movement in Ireland. They have recently shown every inclination to give them full latitude and full scope all over Ireland to convert as many as possible to their way of thinking. That was not the case some two years ago when the Government appealed to the Members of the Nationalist party to support them in this great struggle for the liberty and freedom of small nations.
The time has come when the Government by every means in their power should assist the Allies who are fighting for the liberty and freedom of smaller nations instead of abusing the time of the House by taking controversial matters, contrary to the decision arrived at by the Speaker's Conference. The bringing forward of this very contentious matter does not reflect very much credit on the present Government. I hope Members will vote in favour of the Amendment—there are many Unionists and many English, Scottish, and Welsh members who are prepared to support it—and thereby show to the world who are anxiously looking on at this great battle taking place on a field not far from here that they are in earnest and are not going to spend the precious time of this House in discussing a matter whether four or five seats shall be handed over to the people of Ulster or shall be retained by the people of the rural districts of Ireland. I appeal to Members of the House to put an end to such controversial matters, especially when they are of such trivial importance. By doing so they will assist the Allies and encourage our friends who are fighting our battles. They will bring consolation to our friends in America who are also taking part in this struggle. England can boast of strong Allies in this War, but they would have had no stronger Allies than the Irish if they had only treated them fairly. When they appealed to America President Wilson did not hand over his authority to the British Government. No, he treated them with the greatest possible suspicion, and he had solid ground for doing so. The British Government could not bluff the Americans. They did their utmost, but the Americans are not yet allied with England. They are going on their own account to win the War. If the Government would only act fairly and squarely to all parties, if they would not prefer the policy of men who have been the cause of starting revolution in Ireland and who were the cause of the recent rising in Ireland, and if they would not undertake to promote those men in order to hush them up, and would not place them, as members of the Cabinet, to rule and domineer the Government as to what measures should pass this House, we should have the support of America and of all Irishmen as well. It is regrettable to think that the Government have given way to such an extent to men who should not be in the Cabinet and who should not have a voice in the ruling of this country.
I have listened attentively to the arguments put forward by Members above the Gangway in favour of redistribution. The only argument that can be used in support of it is that they anticipate the breakdown of the Convention, and therefore wish to strengthen the Unionists in Ireland by getting redistribution. No one in the House has made the slightest suggestion that when this redistribution has taken place Trinity College should be deprived of one member or that the National University should get a representative. If there were any desire for fair play, surely the Unionists have enough seats now for all the place hunting lawyers. Everyone in Ireland knows that Trinity College is merely a stepping-stone to Government positions. The argument put forward by various speakers is that they want to remove certain anomalies in the representation of the country, and they have compared Newry with Belfast. But have they compared South Tyrone with South Dublin? South Tyrone has a population of 32,656, and South Dublin has a population of 89,334. Then North Fermanagh has a population of 31,000, and North Dublin a population of 95,000. We did not protest against this, because we desired that there should be no introduction of any fresh ground for disputing and fighting in Ireland. The main point was already in the Act which was on the Statute Book, and the matter had been settled. Is there really an honest desire to get rid of these anomalies? Fermanagh has a population of 61,836 and gets two members, while Louth, with a population of 63,665, gets one member. Wicklow has a population of 60,000. The ground is very well covered, because the gentlemen who have drawn up this scheme are special artists in covering their tracks. Leitrim has a population of 63,000, and it only has one member. Why, therefore, did they pass over Wicklow with 60,000? The hon. Member for South Tyrone (Mr. Coote) yesterday urged that although the Unionists represented 45 per cent. of the population of Tyrone they would only have one member. I do not know how he fixed the percentage of Unionists. I suppose he took the basis of religion, because the Catholics represent 55 per cent. of the population of Tyrone. Even if they are 55 per cent. they have only one Catholic representative in this House, the other three being Protestants, namely, the hon. Members for North Tyrone, South Tyrone, and Mid-Tyrone.
My hon. Friend's argument was that there were three Nationalists and one Unionist.
Then it is a question of politics. South Tyrone has at one time returned a Nationalist and at another time a Unionist. Take Derry County, where the Catholic population is 41 per cent., yet in Derry they have no representation whatever. The hon. Member for South Tyrone also asked whether they were to be represented by Sinn Feiners. The hon. Member never delivers a speech in this House without introducing Sinn Fein. He cannot ignore the fact that it was the Sinn Feiners who sent their motor cars to bring the rifles from Lame, and that these great powers of the Constitution were foremost in arming Ulster. The hon. Member also argued that Belfast was entitled to another member. According to him, Unionist Belfast is entitled to everything. They already have the control of the government of the country and of the Empire. The only thing that remains for them is to control how many representatives should come from Ireland or elsewhere. Belfast has a population of 386,000. If you divide that by the number of members it has already, it does not meet the requirement fixed by the Boundary Commissioners themselves, namely, a population of 43,000, because with nine members the figure would only be 42,880. Therefore, I do not understand why Belfast should have an additional member. The whole business is a complete and perfect juggle. This scheme was drafted over here and sent cut and dried to the Local Government Board Office in Ireland. Every request made on behalf of the Unionists was acceded to at once. They made a request in regard to Rathmines, and the Chief Secretary attempted to show that it was a perfectly equitable thing. Under the scheme as produced by the Commissioners, North Dublin had a population of 47,000 and Rathmines would have had about 45,000, but the Unionists in Rathmines declared that that would prevent them from returning their representative, and immediately the Rathfarnham district, which was put into North Dublin, was taken out at their request, leaving the anomaly to exist that you have Dublin with 49,349 and Rathmines with only 43,000. The Chief Secretary was very anxious to assure the House that he did not know the politics of Sir Henry Robinson. There is no mistaking the fact that hon. Members above the Gangway know his politics. If he wants to know them let him look at the papers with regard to the appointment of a tuberculosis officer in Tyrone, who, because he happened to be a Catholic, had the sanction to his appointment refused by the Local Government Board.
He was of military age.
There are a lot of people getting appointments in Ireland who are of military age, including Judge Moore.
He is not of military age; he is the same age as myself.
There was no difficulty with the Assistant-Solicitor of the Land Commission, who was of military age. During the two years I have been here I have been satisfied that no appeal made by the majority of the representatives of Ireland has the slightest attention paid to it by the Government unless it has the support of Irish Unionist Members. A large percentage of the people in Ireland to-day are absolutely in favour of a settlement of the Irish question, and believe it could be obtained if they were treated fairly. But they have had it proved to them by the treatment of members representing Nationalist constituencies that, whatever they may say here, and however they vote in the Lobbies, it is perfectly useless, so far as making an impression on the Government is concerned. We Irishmen are appealed to to join the Army and fight for the cause of small nationalities. The cause of small nationalities is considered in every place except at home. An hon. Member said that soldiers returning home could not pass along without receiving insults. What is responsible for that state of affairs? Was it not the Curragh revolt, and the wholesale murder of people in North King Street in Easter week? The treatment of the Irish question shows that all this profound desire with regard to small nationalities is mere hypocrisy, and that there is no honesty in it, because you refuse to give fair play and justice to Ireland. No wonder that you have a soured Irish people, and a bitter feeling in America; and no wonder that there is to-day a growing feeling among Irishmen in Great Britain who are mixed up in labour movements. They see there is no hope of justice or fair play from this Government. In this House day after day we hear appeals made to sacrifice everything in the interests of the War. We have seen the sacrifice of our Bill, which passed through the House, and received the sanction of the electors of the United Kingdom. That is hung up. It is we who are to make every sacrifice in order that the small ascendancy party in Ireland should be satisfied.
I only rise for the purpose of making a short appeal to the Government, which I will base on two or three specific grounds. The subject which has been under discussion, as is well known to the House, was not one of the topics dealt with by Mr. Speaker's Conference. Whenever we have come to a topic which was not dealt with by Mr. Speaker's Conference it has been the custom of the Government to allow the House to decide those matters without the interposition of the Government Whips. I need not recite to the House the various subjects upon which there has been a free vote. This is on all fours with them, in that Mr. Speaker's Conference did not decide on this point. Up to the present we have followed the invariable custom of leaving the House free to decide all topics not dealt with there. On this occasion the difficulties are probably as great, if not greater than the difficulties, in regard to the other topics that have been under discussion. In these circumstances many of us find ourselves in great difficulty. We may be in full sympathy or in partial sympathy with those who have been speaking for Irish constituencies. If that is the case, we should naturally wish to express our view in our vote. If, however, the Government put on their Whips, we are left in the difficult position of having to vote against a Government which we do not systematically oppose and which many of us systematically support. There are some Members in this House who feel that to vote against the Government when they have put on their own Whips is a course they cannot take during the War. It may be that the view expressed in the Division Lobbies would therefore have no reference to the topic we have been discussing during the last two days, but merely have reference to our attitude towards the Government which is waging war at the present time. That is the difficulty from which we wish to be relieved. We make no exceptional request. All that we ask is that we should be free to vote without the interposition of the Government Whips, following the precedent the Government itself has set in respect to other questions. That is shortly my appeal. I would ask the Government to leave us free to vote as we please on this question, and to express our own views without placing any artificial obstacle in the way of our saying whether we do or do not agree with the views which have been expressed from Ireland during the last two days.
All those who have taken an interest—and a great many Members have—in the progress of this Bill from stage to stage will have been delighted with the prevailing harmony which has characterised its passage almost up to the time when we may hope to see it on the Statute Book. Feeling myself how agreeable our task has been, because of that prevailing harmony, I am most regretful that at this late stage the attitude of the Government on this question should have met with very great feeling on the part of Irish Nationalists, and that that feeling has been manifested against the conclusions to which the Government came, after a very great deal of careful consideration and deliberation amongst themselves. I am one of those more or less responsible for the conduct of the Bill, and I know how very carefully all the arguments were weighed for and against the two only alternative courses which the Government could possibly adopt.
Why did not the Government give this matter careful deliberation before they drafted the Bill?
I think the hon. Member knows the reply. It is true that the Speaker's Conference came to no decision AS regards the application of redistribution to Ireland. [An HON. MEMBER: "What a quibble!"] That is very unfair. I will read the actual words—
"As regards Ireland the Conference desires to place on record that on the subject of redistribution it has carried on its deliberations from the point of view of Great Britain only."
We may differ about words, but I do not call that a quibble.
Did the Government consider the matter in reference to their obligations to the decision of the Speaker's Conference to rule out redistribution from Ireland? Do the Government consider that they have any honourable obligations to Ireland under the Speaker's Conference?
The Government did consider the question at first when they framed the Bill. They framed it in the light of the Speaker's Conference and they gave to Ireland, as every Irish Member desired they should, the benefit of the large alterations which were made in franchise and electoral reform, but they did not put in at that time any redistribution scheme for Ireland. After all, the Bill was framed in May. What has happened since May? June, July, August, September and October have happened since May, and we are now in December.
A breach of faith to Ireland happened.
That is not a question; that is an interruption. I have listened with the utmost patience to almost every speech which has been made on this question and I ask for the same patient indulgence. No doubt in May those who were at all responsible for the framing of this Bill were animated by the hope that by this time the Convention would probably have reported, and that it might not be necessary for us to deal in any way with redistribution in this Bill. But time goes by and I am quite sure if this Bill had been framed in December we must have put something into it by which we might have some redistribution scheme for Ireland. The hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) said that this was a proof that we had lost faith in the Convention. The Government have not lost faith in the Convention. They have said from this bench, again and Again, and I reiterate the statement that we are full of hope that this Convention will result in some great settlement of the Irish question, even although it is not a settlement which we who have been in this House for so long a time might possibly have desired, and even although it is contrary to the desires and opinions which we have expressed. Look at the position in which we might find ourselves. After all, while we have great hopes that the Convention itself may put forward some proposals by which seats may be redistributed in Ireland, we think we ourselves ought to be prepared in this Bill with some scheme on the Governments responsibility which can be put forward, and which, if the Convention should come to any agreement of a different character, should drop out of the Bill, and the scheme of the Convention would be put in. Suppose we put no such scheme in the Bill. What is the position? The franchise will have been extended, thousands of new voters will be entitled to the franchise, the electoral laws will have been altered. How are you going to frame a new register? If the Convention by some unhappy chance should not result in any proposals being put forward—
If the Convention fails, would it not be within the province of the Government to introduce a special Bill dealing with the case of Ireland?
Yes; it would. But look at the result. The Boundary Commissioners would be set to work again, and before you could redistribute on these lines months may elapse, and it is quite possible that you might have redistribution and a new register for England, Scotland and Wales, and you might possibly have to take a General Election with a new franchise in old constituencies in Ireland—a most anomalous condition of things. The hon. Member and his Friends are all enthusiastic supporters of a Bill which enlarges the franchise and brings on thousands and tens of thousands of voters, and includes women, but what is the value of the vote after they have given it? What is the good of enfranchising 135,000 men and women in East Belfast? They get a vote which has only a fractional value, and it is a mockery, and a sham, and a delusion to enfranchise hundreds of thousands of men and women in this great, industrial, oversized constituency in Ireland until you bring about a scheme of redistribution by which you make the votes you give them of some practical value to them. One of the most hopeless anomalies we have to deal with is the case of this great, industrial constituency in Ireland compared with some of these smaller boroughs, which, I am glad to say, will now be extinguished. I believe the Government, finding itself, I admit, in a most difficult position, has taken the right course. It it had to apply this Bill to Ireland it had to redistribute in Ireland, and it has done so, I believe, in the most perfectly just and fair way. The general scheme has been subjected to very little attack. The Boundary Commissioners have done their duty well. They have avoided any great changes in Ireland. They have sought to redress the larger and grosser inequalities, and I believe the scheme of the Boundary Commissioners is a fair and just scheme which will commend itself to the thousands of beneficiaries who will derive their votes for the first time from the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Runciman) asked I whether in the circumstances which have arisen we must take the full responsibility that Governments generally take for a measure of this kind, and show that responsibility by putting on the party Whips, or could we on this occasion let the House vote freely? The right hon. Gentleman said this was on all fours with the questions of the women's vote and proportional representation. It really is not. At the very outset of our proceedings on this Bill the Prime Minister laid down on those two questions that the House should have perfect liberty of opinion and that no pressure would be brought to bear by the Whips. Those were the two questions selected by the Prime Minister on which the House was to be allowed to vote without pressure from the Government. This is one of those questions on which the Government is bound to take full responsibility. The redistribution scheme is their scheme, and by it they must stand. I am sorry if we place the House in any difficulty in regard to any portion of the Bill. I most gratefully acknowledge the assistance which we have had from the Leaders of the party opposite and generally from all parts of the House. It is very painful to me to have to take any course which is disagreeable to right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and which brings us for the first time in connection with this Bill into conflict with them.
6.0 P.M.
May I call attention to one fact which has characterised this Debate? It is unheard of in Parlia- mentary proceedings that when an ex-Cabinet Minister, with the responsibility of his position, asks that on a question of this kind votes should be free, a subordinate Minister should say that votes should not be free. This Debate has been characterised throughout by the absence of members of the Cabinet. The Gentleman who is mainly responsible for this scheme is a Member of this House and a member of the Cabinet, but he has not once appeared. The Home Secretary and the Chief Secretary for Ireland are not members of the Cabinet. No Home Secretary has ever before been excluded from the Cabinet, and the Chief Secretary for Ireland has not been excluded for many years, except at such times when the Lord Lieutenant has been a Cabinet Minister. Those right hon. Gentlemen are now acting at the behests of persons who do not appear in this House, and they have the humiliation of bringing in a Bill, the prime mover of which is a Gentleman who represents a fancy constituency, Trinity College, and who does not appear in this House to defend a Bill of his own making. I had not intended to intervene in this Debate, but I have heard the horrible drama disclosed in speech after speech and scarcely denied by the other side. First of all, in order to destroy the constitutional movement in Ireland, a revolutionary party was established, and when there was hope of conciliation, when men were coming together and looking at each other with a friendly eye and trying as far as they could to assuage differences—we heard a very noble speech from the Member for Derry—a poisoned dart, or possibly a poisoned dagger, is driven by Government influence, the hidden hand, into the very heart of the Irish Convention. So far as the Chief Secretary and the Home Secretary are concerned, I know they would not be capable of doing things which the historian, who does not know them as well as we do and who does not know them as well as they know themselves, will say they did. It is simply a repetition of this country's policy towards Ireland. I could quote several instances in which schemes for Ireland were arranged and then stopped by subterranean and vile influences. A rebellion was actually fomented to carry the Union, and now, after having raised a rebellion in Ireland, they are trying to destroy the hopes of peace and are going to sacrifice the entire interests of the country. I greatly regret it. It is the tragedy of Ireland. When any foreign statesmen look into the history of this transaction what credence can they give to the word or pledge of an English Cabinet Minister? How can you pose as the great apostles of freedom for small nationalities? How can you pose as men whose word is as good as their bond? How can you speak of honourable English statesmen when again and again you retract your words, and shrink from them, not for the people of England, not for the people of Ireland, but for a hidden influence who does not come here. A hundred years ago there was an Irish barrister, a man of gloomy countenance, an intriguer, a gentleman with Government money in his pocket and brass in his face, Lord Clair. That man, and that man alone, prevented Catholic emancipation in order to carry the Union, and now you are going to prevent reconciliation for Ireland in order to establish Carsonism in its stead.
The President of the Local Government Board said that if there was not a scheme of redistribution for Ireland it would be an anomaly. Ireland is an anomaly now, and who has made it an anomaly? Right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench are responsible to a very large extent for the anomaly of Ireland. I am going to make an appeal to the Home Secretary to withdraw this proposition, or, on the other hand, to leave it to the free judgment of the House. I am a member of a big trade union which has a large number of branches in Ireland, and the letters I have received are all in favour of postponing redistribution in Ireland until after the Convention has reported. I have received letters not only from members of my own trade union, but I am speaking in the name of some of the other skilled trade unions in Ireland. Some of these men take the deepest possible interest in the affairs of Ireland, m the question of representation in this House, and in the extension of the franchise to men and women in Ireland, and they say that now is a most inopportunte time to deal with redistribution in Ireland. That being so, I think the opinions of these Irish working men ought to be considered by the Government. These men say that when there is a possibility of a favourable settlement of the Irish question the Government jump in with something which sets all wrong again. I do not know why it is, but the Government never forgets things and never learns anything in connection with Ireland. In the interests of peace in Ireland, and with the object of getting harmony and concord in connection with the affairs of Ireland, the Government would be well advised if they adopted the suggestion to withdraw this matter at the present time. There will be no difficulty whatever later, if it is found necessary, to introduce a special Bill for redistribution in Ireland. When I say I am speaking for trade unionists, I mean that I am speaking for them as trade unionists, and not as Nationalists or Unionists. They recognise fully that this is a question which affects them not as Unionists or Nationalists, but as men or women irrespective of politics. Therefore, I do appeal to the Government to leave this question to the judgment of the House or otherwise to drop the scheme altogether.
I think it is very regrettable that the request of the right hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) was not accepted by the President of the Local Government Board. If this proposition which is made by the Government is right, why not leave it to the open vote of the House? Surely it would be far better to carry this Schedule if it were done by a majority on the free vote of the House than if it were done merely because the Government insist on their own proposals? I am placed in a very difficult position in this matter, but I have no doubt whatever as to what my action will be. I shall be bound to vote against the Government, and for the very simple reason that I was a member of the Speaker's Conference. A great deal is said as to what the intentions of the Conference were. It is quite true that the paragraph in the Report perfectly correctly represents what the Conference decided:
"As regards Ireland the Conference desires to place on record that on the subject of redistribution it has carried on its deliberations from the point of view of Great Britain alone."
That is perfectly true, but it does not convey—although I am not complaining of the words—the intimation that this question was very fully considered by the Conference, and that it was part of the compromise of the Conference. We went through the subject of redistribution in Great Britain with the fullest knowledge, approximately, as to how it would work, out. We had all the constituencies before us, and we saw on the figures what the result would be, but we never had any figures for Ireland, because we had come to the conclusion that the position in Ireland ought to be left as it was, absolutely. My own feeling in the Conference was that inasmuch as when the Home Rule Act comes into operation there would be forty-two Members of Parliament sent to the Imperial Parliament, that then redistribution would have to take place upon that basis. That would be the only basis upon which we could assume that redistribution would take place; but inasmuch as that question was still in abeyance we never thought of any redistribution on any other system whatever. I regret very much and have, from the very beginning regretted, that the Government have thought it necessary to start a new scheme of redistribution on a new basis for Ireland. Those of us who will be resisting the Government in this matter are really doing the best thing for the Government. I cannot believe that this question will stop here. We have been told by the President of the Local Government Board that if the Convention decides upon any other scheme that other scheme will be substituted for this in the Schedule that we are going to put in. It seems to me almost folly for us to put into this Bill a redistribution scheme in Ireland when we can be pretty well certain that that scheme will be altered in a very short time. I cannot help thinking that; the suggestion made by my right hon. Friend that the question of redistribution might be left over is a good suggestion. Redistribution can be dealt with later if necessary. We shall not be able to get the register ready for five or six months, and there will be time to do that, and the other provision of the Bill could be perfectly well dealt with without any question of redistribution being inserted now. I do hope that the Government will see their way not to put us in the position of having to vote against them. Although I am as interested as anybody in the passing of this measure I certainly shall vote against them, because this is a matter on which I can take no other course.
Question put, "That the word 'and' stand part of the proposed Amendment, as amended."
The House divided: Ayes, 217; Noes, 163.
Division No. 127.] AYES. [6.15 p.m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Cautley, H. S. Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Greig, Colonel J. W. Allen, Major W. J. (Armagh, N.) Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Gretton, Colonel John Archdale, Lieut. Edward M. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Col. M. Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Ashley, Wilfrid W. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Robert (Herts, Hitchin) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich) Astor, Major Hon. Waldorf Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J. (Kens., S.) Baldwin, Stanley Clynes, John R. Hancock, John George Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G. Coates, Major Sir E. F. (Lewisham) Hanson, Charles Augustin Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Colvin, Col. Richard Beale Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.) Barnett, Capt R. W. Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Harris, Sir Henry P. (Paddington, S.) Barnston, Major Harry Coote, William Henry, Denis S. Barrie, Hugh T. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hewart, Sir Gordon Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) Hewins, William Albert Samuel Beale, Sir William Phipson Cowan, Sir W. H. Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Beauchamp, Sir Edward Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E. Beck, Arthur Cecil Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.) Hohier, Gerald Fitzroy Beckett, Hon. Gervase Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Bellairs, Commander C. W. Craik, Sir Henry Hope, Lieut.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian) Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Currie, George W. Hume-Williams, William Ellis Bentham, George Jackson Dalrymple, Hon. H. N. Hunt, Major Rowland Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Hunter, Major Sir Charles Rodk. Bird, Alfred Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardiganshire) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Blair, Reginald Denison-Pender, Capt. J. C. Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue Denniss, E. R. B. Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Dixon, C. H. Jessel, Colonel Sir H. M. Boyle, William L. (Norfolk, Mid.) Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Boyton, James Du Pre, Major W. Baring Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Brace, Rt. Hon. William Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Brassey, H. L. C. Fell, Arthur Kellaway, Frederick George Bridgeman, William Clive Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Brookes, Warwick Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Knight, Captain E. A. Broughton, Urban Hanlon Fitzroy, Capt. Hon. Edward A. Larmor, Sir J. Bull, Sir William James Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Burdett-Coutts, W. Fletcher, John Samuel Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Butcher, John George Forster, Rt. Hon. Henry William Lindsay, William Arthur Carew, Charles R. S. (Tiverton) Foster, Philip Staveley Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Carnegie, Lt.-Col. Douglas G. Ganzoni, Francis John C. Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Cator, John Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Parkes, Sir Edward E. Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Lowther, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Appleby) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Loyd, Archmie Kirkman Perkins, Walter F. Sykes, Col. Sir Alan John (Knutsford) McCalmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A. Peto, Basil Edward Sykes, Col. Sir Mark (Hull, Central) MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Philipps, Maj.-Gen. Sir Ivor (S'ampton) Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Mackinder, Halford J. Philipps, Sir Owen (Chester) Thomas-Stanford, Charles Macleod, John Mackintosh Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Tickler, T. G. Macmaster, Donald Pratt, J. W. Touche, Sir George Alexander McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George Tryon, Captain George Clement Macpherson, James Ian Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund Turton, Edmund Russborough Magnus, Sir Philip Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Walker, Colonel William Hall Maitland, Sir A. D. Steel- Quilter, Major Sir Cuthbert Walsh, Stephen (Lancs. Ince) Malcolm, Ian Randles, Sir John S. Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) Marriott, John A. R. Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon) Wardle, George J. Mason, James F. (Windsor) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. Meux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth Roberts, Rt. Hon. George H. (Norwich) Watson, Hon. W. Meysey-Thompson, Colonel E. C. Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Weigall, Lieut.-Col. W. E. G. A. Mitchell-Thomson, W. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Weston, J. W. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Rothschild, Major Lionel de Whiteley, Herbert James Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen) Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Morrison-Bell, Colonel E. F. (Ashburton) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Samuels, Arthur W. Wilson-Fox, Henry (Tamworth) Mount, William Arthur Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Winfrey, Sir Richard Munro, Rt Hon. Robert Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Wolmer, Viscount Neville, Reginald J. N. Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) Newman, Major John R. P. Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. C. Wood, John (Stalybridge) Nicholson, William G. (Peterfield) Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Liverpool) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Nield, Herbert Spear, Sir John Ward Yate, Colonel Charles Edward Norton-Griffiths, Sir John Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A. H. (Asht'n-u-Lyne) Younger, Sir George O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid.) Starkey, John Ralph Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. Henry TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord Parker, Rt. Hon. Sir G. (Gravesend) Stewart, Gershom E. Talbot and Capt. F. Guest. Parker, James (Halifax)
NOES. Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Graham, Edward John Needham, Christopher T. Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough) Nolan, Joseph Alden, Percy Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Nugent, John Dillon (Dublin, Coll. Gn.) Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Hackett, John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Anderson, W. C. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) O'Dowd, John Arnold, Sydney Harris, Persy A. (Leicester, S.) Ogden, Fred Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Hayden, John Patrick O'Grady, James Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Hayward, Major Evan O'Malley, William Bethell, Sir J. H. Healy, Maurice (Cork) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Black, Sir Arthur W. Hearn, M. L. O'Shee, James John Bliss, Joseph Helme, Sir Norval Watson Outhwaite, R. L. Brady, Patrick Joseph Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) Parrott, Sir James Edward Brunner, John F. L. Hill, Sir James (Bradford, C.) Partington, Hon. Oswald Burns, Rt. Hon. John Holmes, Daniel Turner Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Buxton, Noel Holt, Richard Durning Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding) Chancellor, Henry George Hughes, Spencer Leigh Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Clancy, John Joseph John, Edward Thomas Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Clough, William Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Cochrane, Cecil Algernon Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Pringle, William M. R. Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Jowett, Frederick William Raffan, Peter Wilson Condon, Thomas Joseph Joyce, Michael Reddy, Michael Cosgrave, James Keating, Matthew Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Crooks, Rt. Hon. William Kennedy, Vincent Paul Redmond, Capt. W. A. (Tyrone, E.) Crumley, Patrick King, Joseph Rendall, Athelstan Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Devlin, Joseph Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M. Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Lundon, Thomas Robinson, Sidney Dillon, John Lynch, Arthur Alfred Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Doris, William M'Callum, Sir John M. Rowlands, James Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk, B'ghs) Rowntree, Arnold Duffy, William J. McGhee, Richard Scanlan, Thomas Essex, Sir Richard Walted M'Kean, John Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) Falconer, James MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Sheehy, David Farrell, James Patrick MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sherwell, Arthur James Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Maden, Sir John Henry Smallwood, Edward Ffrench, Peter Manfield, Harry Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Field, William Mason, David M. (Coventry) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Finney, Samuel Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Snowden, Philip Fitzgibbon, John Middlebrook, Sir William Soames, Arthur Wellesley Fitzpatrick, John Lalor Millar, James Duncan Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Flavin, Michael Joseph Molloy, Michael Sutherland, John E. Fleming, Sir J. (Aberdeen, S.) Molteno, Percy Alport Sutton, John E. Golder, Sir W. A. Morgan, George Hay Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Gilbert, J. D. Morison, Hector (Hackney, S.) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Glanville, Harold James Morrell, Philip Tootill, Robert Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford Muldoon, John Toulmin, Sir George Trevelyan, Charles Philips Whitty, Patrick Joseph Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Wing, Thomas Edward Watson, John Bertrand (Stockton) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) Watt, Henry A. Williams, John (Glamorgan) Yoxall, Sir James Henry White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) White, Patrick (Meath, North) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Whitehouse, John Howard Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) Boland and Mr. Mooney. Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, as amended, after the word "and" ["and the new Clause"], to insert the words "the Amendment to Clause 18 standing in the name of Mr. Devlin, and."
The object of this Amendment is to enable me at a subsequent stage to propose an Amendment in favour of proportional representation in the large centres of population in Ireland. The Chief Secretary yesterday dilated at great length on the importance of minority representation, and though I did not quite follow either his arguments or his conclusions, I said then, and I repeat, that I and my colleagues stand for representation for minorities. According to the proposals of the Government and the representation as devised by the Boundary Commissioners, the Nationalists and Catholics, who form one-fourth of the entire population of Belfast, will be entitled to only one member out of nine. A similar anomaly will exist in Dublin. I am in favour of giving the population in each of these great communities precisely the representation to which it is entitled. I rejoiced to hear so many democratic declarations from our Friends in North-East Ulster, declarations that this was an opportunity of doing justice to the working classes in the great city of Belfast. They will be delighted, I am sure, to know that the proposal which I have put upon the Paper is one which has the enthusiastic support of the Belfast Trades Council. The Belfast Trades Council has passed a resolution in favour of proportional representation in the two large cities of Ireland, and, in its judgment and in my belief, this is the only way, not only in which Catholics can secure representation in Belfast adequate to their numbers, but the only way in which labour can be represented effectively in this House. When I heard the speeches from some of the Members for North-East Ulster about robbing the working classes of the franchise, I cast my mind back to the series of electoral conflicts that have taken place in Belfast during the last twenty years. Though Belfast is to the extent of 95 per cent. an industrial com- munity yet, except by a political accident, there has never been returned to this House a single representative of Labour from that city. I hear sometimes denunciations of political machines in Ireland. There is no more perfect or scientific political machine than the Ulster political machine, which is so efficiently directed by hon. Gentlemen on these benches. By no chance, not even by a miracle, could the Labour party secure a representative in Parliament from Belfast. In the City Corporation, where there are sixty or seventy members, there is not a single representative of Labour. It is because the political machine in Belfast is so powerful that no Labour representative ever has the slightest chance of being returned. I am hopeful that if we settle the Irish question, as I profoundly hope we may, the political passions that caused differences between people of different religions will pass away, and that Labour will come into its own again. But at all events Labour is entitled to determine the best method by which it can secure representation, and it has decided by the resolution of its own Trade Council—
May I appeal to hon. Members to cease talking—I cannot hear my hon. Friend making his speech.
Order, order!
Labour has a right to express its view in the resolution passed by the Belfast Trades Council in favour of proportional representation, and therefore I hope that the House will allow this Amendment to be proposed, so as to enable me at a subsequent stage to propose the Amendment which stands in my name.
I beg to second the Amendment.
My hon. Friend has explained with great clearness and force how his proposal will affect Nationalists and the Labour party in Belfast and Ulster generally, but of course it follows that it will have a similar effect in respect of minorities everywhere in Ireland, and. I support it all the more cordially because of that effect, and because it is designed not merely, as I hope, to give greater variety in the representation of North-East Ulster, but also to introduce, which I think is a most healthy thing, a different type of Unionism representing minorities all over the rest of Ireland. I think nothing is more healthy in the political constitution than to have men of different political views representing the same area. By that means political asperities are naturally softened; they have common intercourse and common interests, which bind any two men who represent any common political area. I am sorry to say that one hon. Gentleman above the Gangway yesterday taunted us with not having kept promises made on many occasions, of concessions and all kinds of things, to those of our fellow countrymen who differ from us. But I do not propose to enter upon that controversy; I only wish to recommend this proposal to the House as being by far the best means of securing to minorities in Ireland—at any rate, m the great centres of Ireland—to whatever political party they may belong or whether they belong to no political party, representation wherever they have substantial numbers—a representation which it is essential to the body politic that they should possess.
Before this Amendment is put, may I ask you, Sir, whether it is in Order? It refers to an Amendment which is to be introduced in Committee for a special method of voting in Ireland, where there are three or more members to elect for a constituency. As the Schedule stands there is no such constituency having three or more members.
Yes, there is—North Dublin. Bead your own Bill.
:I submit, Sir, that if any such Amendment is placed upon the Paper it could not be put in Committee, and that, therefore, the present Amendment is not in order.
I do not agree with what the Home Secretary has said. If the House adopts the Amendment of the hon. Member for West Belfast it will be, of course, necessary for him in Committee to move an Amendment to the Schedule or to propose a new Schedule which would fit in with his proposal. I think he is entitled, for the present, seeing that we are sitting as a House and not in Committee, to ask the House to give general assent to applying proportional representation in Ireland to constituencies, which, in Committee, the hon. Member will have to designate, and which he is prepared to bring in.
Although the Home Secretary's point of Order has not succeeded, I am not very hopeful that he will accept the Amendment. I hope, however, that, on this occasion he will follow the precedent that has been set by the House on the general question of proportional representation, to leave the matter to the judgment of Members. He cannot very well make an exception of Ireland with, that precedent before him. Within the last week we have established the precedent that whenever proportional representation is proposed the Government Whips shall not be put on—that it shall be left to the general judgment of the House. It would be very interesting to see if the Home Secretary, having consulted the Chief Secretary, and having consulted by telepathy the Member for Trinity College, whose form, though absent, to our memories is fondly present, is ready to seize on this occasion for a departure from that sacramental position which at present all of us so much reverence in this House. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman, who I am sure wishes to meet the wishes of the general body of Irish Members, that Labour and Conservatism could get due representation, and I would remind him that on the question of proportional representation, by the action of the Speaker's Conference, it applies to Ireland, and, that being so, surely the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary will fall down and worship it. The general body of the House rejected proportional representation the other day, but many distinguished advocates of proportional representation, among them the Foreign Secretary, voted for it, and it will be interesting to see whether, having done that, they would vote against the extension of the principle to Ireland, having already supported it for the United Kingdom. It would be interesting to see if they would vote against that principle in the one country which needs it more than all others. Therefore, I would appeal to the Home Secretary, or I would advise him, before he makes up his mind on this question, to study the Division Lists as regards the general question of proportional representation. He will find, I think, that nearly every distinguished Tory in the House supported it, and it would be a dreadful thing if, in the case of a smaller nationality, these Gentlemen, having supported the general principle, should have to come down now and, at the beck of the Government Whips, should have to vote against it in the case of Ireland. From what I see on the Front Bench, I am glad to observe that the advice I have given as to leaving this question to the judgment of the House is going to be taken. In this House, the other day, I saw some of our distinguished opponents go into the Lobby in favour of proportional representation, and we want to have the same principle applied in Ireland, which is the one case where the minority should be adequately represented. In the case of municipal elections, on a previous Bill, I moved that provision should be made for minority representation, but when that proposal reached the House of Lords it was rejected.
This question of Irish redistribution has never been considered by any section of the Government or of the Cabinet—never once, and I tell the Home Secretary, or the Chief Secretary, that the most ridiculous blunders have been made in the Schedule. I am not going to tell him what they are for the moment, but when we come into Committee I will show him a series of the most ridiculous blunders that a human being ever made. On a question of where a ward or a division or a particular area belongs to, it will be described by the Local Government Board, and it is Sir Henry Robertson over again, without an appeal. Here we have the Government making blunders; propositions are put forward hastily; the whole thing has not been considered by any man in the Government except the Irish Secretary, who has got his information, I suppose, from the Local Government Board of Ireland. I would further remind the House that when the Home Rule Bill was passing through its stages, the Government accepted the Amendment proposing proportional representation for the election of the British Parliament. Therefore, you have two great precedents, the precedent of the Home Rule Bill, and the precedent of the Speaker's Conference, to which you have always bowed down and worshipped; consequently, some such system as this for Ireland ought to be put in the Bill. Hon. Gentleman above the Gangway affect to believe that we desire to prevent the abolition of anomalies, but what greater anomaly could you have than this anomaly which you seek to set up in your Bill? Forty thousand men in Belfast are to get a member, but when you cross to Glasgow the number is to be seventy thousand. No greater anomaly was ever set up than this which has been set up in the interests of Unionists. It is the greatest anomaly ever set up, and it is done deliberately. Whenever the franchise has been extended in Ireland it was acompanied with redistribution. In 1867 we did not get 1he franchise, but we got it a year later, though no redistribution accompanied the great change of the reduction from £10 to £4.
But as you now insist on redistribution, we are entitled to have it scientifically considered. One way would be to group the boroughs; another way would be, where there are two or three members, to give the minority vote. You have flung this proposal at the head of the House of Commons, and I think I am right in saying that in the English aniversities—I am not quite sure, and I hope I shall be corrected if I am wrong—where there are two members of the university, there is only one vote for each. In the case of Dublin University, by that plan Carson might be ousted. In this matter of university representation there is a difference being made between the Irish and English universities, and, as regards Trinity College, it is neither to be considered by this House nor can it be considered by the Boundary Commissioners. On all these grounds, therefore. I submit that some system of proportional representation becomes a necessity for Ireland. Hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway say we want the Protestant vote to have a different and lesser value than the Catholic, but by this scheme we give to every vote its due value. What we want is this, roughly speaking: The Conservatives in Ireland have about a fourth of the population, and they should have a fourth of the representation; but accompanying that is the fact that we have the Nationalists scattered over Ireland, and where the Nationalists, as in Antrim, are a fourth of the population, we require that they should have their due weight.
I did not say anything in my speech yesterday about what occurred in 1884. One of the greatest scandals connected with the gerrymandering of 1884 was the splitting up of the glens of Antrim. If ever there was a place historically compact it was that inhabited by the gallant people of those splendid glens. What did you do? You carved out a North Antrim which was an East Antrim or something of that kind, and you deprived the Catholics of Antrim of the representation which they might have had in the northern division. What did you do in Derry, another of the topics of fire in 1884. The 1884 division was made by the soldiers, the Royal Engineers, without any regard to politics. They made a fair division of the county of Derry. A Boundary Commission was appointed and took three Catholic parishes out of South Derry and threw them into North Derry where they could do no harm, and they took three Protestant parishes out of the soldiers' North Derry and threw them into South Derry so that Derry County should have two Protestant members. In Down there was a similar question. I remember going to Downpatrick in 1884 and Mr. Wylie, the solicitor who represented the Conservative party, said, "We object to have the Catholics all massed in one division," and accordingly the Boundary Commissioners sliced up Down to prevent them being massed in one division. I never forgot the expression. In this present Bill, and this is a point for the House to remember when we are pressing this question of proportional representation, every time the Conservatives took objection to the scheme the Local Government Board decided in their favour. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Derry (Mr. Henry), a recent and distinguished addition to this House, went down to Tyrone and objected to the scheme and instantly the scheme is changed. He did not get all he asked, nobody ever does. He asked too much, but they gave him just enough to do what he wanted. Similarly in Dublin a distinguished local lawyer went before the Commissioners about the Rathmines Division, I think we ought to call it the Robinson or Carson division, or, if you like, the Duke division, and asked that Rathfarnham should be excluded from the sacred soil of Rathmines and it was instantly done. In Down the Conservatives appeared and said, "We would like a few little changes, not very much," and it was instantly done. But in no instance except in the granting of a change of name was any concession given to the Nationalists. We had the name of Mountjoy for one of our divisions and that was a rather awkward name, especially in connection with the Ashe case and his unhappy death, and as the principal murderer and plunderer of Ireland was Mountjoy both in 1603 and again in '98, when the Mountjoy of that time was killed at Vinegar Hill, we thought a different name should be given to it. Kilmainham and Arbour Hill are associated with such recent events that we suggested Clontarff reminiscent of before the English came, and that is the one concession that has been given to us by the Boundary Commissioners, as it did not affect anything. Therefore I am very glad indeed that the hon. Gentleman behind me has moved this Amendment with a view to try and get something like reasonableness. Nobody can contend that a scheme which the Speaker's Conference unanimously recommended can be bad for Ireland. On that Speaker's Conference there sat four Irish members, five or six Tory members, and eight or nine Liberal members. You cannot contend that it will do harm to the Tory party and you cannot pretend that you cannot do it because you have not time. You have lots of time, especially now that we are sitting on Friday and probably Saturday, and there was a time when I believe there were some Sunday sittings. Therefore, I do hope that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, now that the Under-Secretary has comeback satisfied no doubt as to the state of mind of the Member for Trinity College, will see his way to yield to the Amendment which has been moved. I will make a bargain. I will now make an offer which I think will really win over the Member for Trinity College to the views which we hold. It is in the nature of a compromise. If he will yield on this question of proportional representation we will yield Trinity College with its two Members unassailed and undebated.
Having listened to the speech of the Mover of this Amendment I find some difficulty in accepting his assurance that it is seriously meant to be pressed. What has happened as regards the great municipality of Belfast is that the Boundary Commissioners have divided the city into nine single-member seats. I am not aware that there has been any protest, even from our friends below the Gangway, as to the manner in which that has taken place. Under the Bill as it at present stands there is no constituency to which this Amendment can be applied if it were accepted by the House. I do not think my hon. Friends could seriously go to the City of Belfast and publicly advo- cate that the work of the Boundary Commissioners should be undone, and that a new three-member constituency should be set up and in operation in that great city. I venture to assure the House that this Amendment, if pressed, would disfranchise Labour in the greater part of that city. What is hoped will obtain under this rearrangement of that city is that there shall be at least two Labour members in the future coming from Belfast, possibly three; and I do not think that for one moment the House will think that the principle of single-member constituencies is one which should not be applied all round to all great municipalities. There is an absolute consensus of opinion against even two-member constituencies. My hon. Friend below the Gangway (Mr. M. Healy) is practically the only representative present of one of the double-member constituencies. I do not propose to attempt to enter on the large questions raised by the hon. and learned Gentleman who has just spoken. We think that the City of Belfast might have been given ten seats, and that its population would justify that. I venture to say that before another redistribution scheme comes along it will be found that no injustice is being done, even to Scotland and England, because while at present there is a member in Belfast for every 43,000 or 45,000 of its population, the rapidity of the growth of that city is so great that it will be found within a very few years that Belfast will be very seriously unrepresented in the Imperial House of Commons.
I should regard it as unfortunate for Labour if this Amendment were seriously considered. If it is pressed, then I wish to say that it is a bad day's work for Labour in Belfast. Reference has been made to the Trades Council of Belfast. It is only right to say that that is a body totally unrepresentative of the great industries of Belfast. It is a small society, run on strictly political lines, and not in sympathy with Unionism, which is so strong in that city. All the great shipbuilding societies are in sympathy with Unionism. That accounts for this resolution coming from this small and unimportant body, a body which for years set up candidates for the municipality, and just for the reason that they were totally out of sympathy with the progressive ideals of that city, they have ceased to have a single member elected. On the contrary, whenever you had the right stamp of Labour candidate coming forward in Belfast, as we had, they were returned and honoured and given every honour that it was possible for that municipality to give to them. I say that the same traditions prevail to-day, and I hope when we have an election shortly that two or three of these seats will be occupied by Labour, the best type of Labour, truly progressive Labour that will be a help to us in transacting the affairs of this House.
In the proceedings in Committee on this Bill and on the Report we had more than one discussion on the principle of proportional representation, and, if my memory is not at fault, I do not remember that any of the hon. Gentlemen who are taking an interest in this Amendment contributed to the information of the House on those occasions.
May I inform the right hon. Gentleman that we issued a Whip to our Members to support it.
We had no chance of speaking.
Their Members voted in the Lobby for it.
I am not talking of how they voted.
They voted for it.
The House rejected the principle of proportional representation, and we accepted that decision of the House, as we were bound to do, as applying to the whole of the United Kingdom. Until yesterday when this Amendment was put down, no one heard it suggested to apply this principle to Ireland.
May I point out that in the Home Rule Act of 1914 precisely has been done that which I propose to do by this Amendment. Why did the Government propose it?
I am perfectly well aware that for the purposes of an election to the Senate—
For the purpose of an election to the Lower House in all constituencies of three or more members, apart from the Senate, proportional representation was applied.
7.0 P.M.
I am perfectly well aware that for the purposes of the Senate, and for certain other purposes this principle has been applied in the Government of Ireland Act. That is not inconsistent with what I was saying, that no one has ever advocated that for the purposes of this Bill. I want the House to consider what is the intention and what will be the effect of this Amendment? We have not been favoured on the Order Paper with any proposal at all to apply proportional representation to any particular constituencies in Ireland. There is the suggestion that some proposals may yet be put on the Paper. But we are asked to vote to-day. We have not to-day any proposals showing how this principle is intended to be applied to any part of Ireland, either to Dublin, Belfast, or elsewhere. What will happen if the Amendment is adopted? The constituencies will have to be put on the Paper in order that this Amendment may be applied, and the action of the hon. Gentleman will have this result, which he may or may not desire, that it will prolong for days, and perhaps for weeks, the Debate, with very serious effect on the fortunes of the Bill. I do not think it is my duty at all to discuss the matter of principle. Certainly I am not going to Debate to-day the question of proportional representation. I do, however, say this: That the Amendment, whatever its intentions, must have the effect of prolonging, and perhaps entirely wrecking, the proceedings on the Bill. It is from that point of view, naturally, that I have to consider it. If this Amendment also is to receive the support of the House, I tell the House quite plainly that the effect on the Bill will be very serious indeed. I am not at all using that argument to defeat the principle of proportional representation. That may be discussed elsewhere, but for the purpose of this Schedule, and so far as this House is concerned, the point should be treated as decided. We ought not to attempt to apply the principle to one part only of the kingdom. The Government have been appealed to to leave the vote open. We have gone to the utmost limits, and given the House all the freedom we can, but when we have an instance in which an Amendment proposed may be vital, and may affect the whole of the Bill, I am bound to look at the fortunes of the Bill as a whole. I must, therefore, ask the House to assent to the Government proposal, and to negative the Amendment.
I hope the House will carry the Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for West Belfast. If the Government assents to this Amendment, it would be able to make some slight reparation for the wrong it has done to the Speaker's Conference and to the Speaker himself. The decision which the House has taken under the Whips, and at the request of the Government, has been a most flagrant step taken against the decision of the Speaker's Conference. That Conference undoubtedly decided against redistribution in Ireland, and I am sure the members of the Government did not consult the Speaker as to whether it would be carrying out that spirit or letter of the Report in proposing redistribution for Ireland. I do not want unnecessarily to introduce your name, authority, or position, Mr. Speaker, but I consider that the introduction of redistribution for Ireland was a most flagrant departure from the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. In one thing the House now, at this stage, may make reparation. The Speaker's Conference was unanimously in favour of a certain amount of proportional representation. The Conference was also unanimous against any redistribution in Ireland. We have set the Speaker's Conference on one side in the decision which the House has come to, that redistribution shall be entertained for Ireland. If we want to get back to the provisions of the Speaker's Conference we can do so by giving proportional representation to Ireland. In asking that we are asking for what your Conference decided. We are also asking for what this House decided in regard to Ireland in 1914. It was particularly at the request of the Nationalist representatives of Ireland that this House introduced proportional representation, not only for the Senate, but for the House of Commons in Ireland, in passing the Home Rule Act of 1914. Under your presidency, Mr. Speaker, your Conference decided that because the Home Rule Act was an Act of Parliament, and was not a scrap of paper, but a sacred treaty, that it could not give a recommendation to this House in regard to redistribution in Ireland, but you also decided that there should be a recommendation to this House to carry proportional representa- tion as one of the parts of the Franchise Bill to be introduced. I ask the House to give effect, or partial effect, to this in regard to Ireland.
The suggestion of the Home Secretary that this thing cannot be entertained because there is no notice of it is not a statement to which the House ought to pay very great attention, although as a general rule everthing the Home Secretary says is so fair that one is inclined to give very great weight to all his utterances. He makes a complaint. I ask him does he make it fairly? He says that the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Belfast has not at this stage introduced a Schedule. What was the consideration the Home Secretary had for Ireland when by a side-wind on the Third Reading he introduced his scheme to set up a Boundary Commission to carry out redistribution in Ireland? The Home Secretary cannot have it both ways. If if is right for you to force a thing, illegitimately as I contend, like redistribution for Ireland, without giving notice of it in the Bill as originally drafted, and without making the slightest reference to it on the Second Reading, what complaint can the right hon. Gentleman have against my hon. Friend the Member for West Belfast because he has introduced his Motion for proportional representation without having provided Schedules and grouped constituencies? The proposal of the hon. Member for West Belfast is for proportional representation in Ireland in the same sense and to the same effect as proportional representation is provided for in the Home Rule Act, 1914.
When the Speaker's Conference considered the question of the franchise it had before it the exact wording of the Home Rule Act of 1914. When the Speaker's Conference decided to give proportional representation to constituencies consisting of more than two members, it had in mind that this House of Commons, on the Home Rule Bill, had affirmed in regard to Ireland the principle of proportional representation. Are we asking too much when we ask the Government to restore to us the opportunity, which the Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend gives us, to secure a just representation of minorities under the scheme which has been forced upon us against the consent of Ireland and against the wishes of Ire- land—that is redistribution? I recommend to the House the proposal of this Amendment. If the Whips of the Government are to be kept off, well and good. Of course, by applying their Whips, the Government can perpetuate the same act of naked indecency in Ireland which it has perpetuated by getting the members of this Government in their various offices, secretaries and under-secretaries who ornament those benches opposite, to come in and swamp the opinion of the House. They can coerce their followers, because they are their own followers, and in a sense they are hirelings. They can also coerce the members of the Liberal party, who think that in a spirit of patriotism it is necessary for them to vote for the Government whenever the Government put on their Whips. I venture to hope that the Members of the House who feel that some freedom is still reserved to Members of Parliament will vote with the Member for West Belfast and secure that some measure of justice will be done to Ireland under the scheme of redistribution.
My hon. Friend who moved this Amendment some time ago asked me to speak in its favour. I am bound to say that I thought at the time that there would not be any great difficulty in securing assent to this proposal. The hon. Gentleman and I have just come from another assembly in which we have been very much occupied with the Irish question, or one chiefly so in principle—how to get adequate representation for minorities. I thought that the same atmosphere might prevail here. [An HON. MEMBER: "It does!"] It was an unduly sanguine anticipation. I must say I had hoped the hon. Member for North Londonderry would naturally have been in support of the Member for West Belfast and myself. It appears he prefers to trust for the representation of minorities to some arrangements in the electoral Schedule when it is being drawn up. I should have thought that the individual elector should have something to say in this matter. I am entirely in favour of regrouping these urban constituencies, as was done under the Home Rule Act, in order that in places like Dublin and Belfast, and possibly Cork, the minority may get some chance of representation other than that which the Boundary Commissioners may have placed or assigned to them as their due. I can understand some officers, or the members of the Irish Unionist party—who appear to have settled this matter—saying, "If Belfast wants a member more, and Dublin a member less, let us so arrange it." I think it would be a better plan to group the three or four Dublin constituencies and give them a system of proportional representation, in which case undoubtedly the minority would get a member. That is what we stand here for. But I say I sympathise with the Home Secretary's position. It has undoubtedly exposed him to inconvenience. It is inconvenient for the Home Secretary when his leading supporters get up and say to him that they are bound to vote against him because, in their opinion, the intention is to violate an agreement entered into. Two of the members of the Speaker's Conference voted against the Government in the last Debate on that issue, and I think inconvenience, which I regret exceedingly for the Home Secretary, both personally and politically, naturally results when the Government decides that their action on an important matter will be dictated to them absolutely by one small group in this House, such as that which is dictating to them in this matter. I do not want to embarrass the Government, but I submit that the Amendment we are pressing now is an Amendment which is fair in principle, which is honest in intention, and which is identical with an Amendment put into the Home Rule Bill, with Nationalist consent, as a concession to Unionist minorities. I think it is wholly unfair of the Chief Secretary to say that if this matter is pressed we endanger the whole principle of the Franchise Bill. I object to that view, and I hope the House will support the ordinary freedom of opinion and will insist that the principle which has been applied to this matter—that of leaving the question of proportional representation to the vote of this House—shall apply even when Ireland is concerned.
I appreciate the strength of the reasons the Home Secretary has given why, at this stage, we should not insert in the Bill a change in the method of election as regards Ireland I think, perhaps, he has somewhat exaggerated the difficulties, because it would not be a question of the Boundary Commissioners spending time in making new boundaries. It would merely be a question of eliminating boundaries, which is a much more speedy process. Still, it is the case now that we have passed the Bill through all its stages and are merely considering the recommittal and, I hope, to send it forward to another place this week, so that it would cause not a little embarrassment if the system of proportional representation were inserted in the Bill, with the necessity of making considerable consequential modifications to the Schedule. I regret that this should be so, because, for my part, I should like to see the experiment tried in Ireland. I think it is a misfortune the experiment has not been tried in England in the boroughs. I voted that the experiment should be tried in the boroughs in England. I should like to see it tried somewhere, and, if the majority of the Irish representatives wish it tried in Ireland, I should like to see how it would work in that country. I do not believe for a moment that, as suggested by one of the hon. Members for Ulster, the effect would be to disfranchise Labour. Labour, of course, under this system would have its due share of representation, and would be even more sure of getting its share than under the system of single-member constituencies. Further, we should be following the decision of the House in the Home Rule Act in applying this system of proportional representation.
At the same time, the Home Secretary has addressed grave words to the House as to the effect on the prospects of the Bill of inserting this very considerable change at this stage. He referred to the last Division, and to the composition of the Lobbies on that occasion. Let me point this out, that the difficulty in which the House now finds itself is wholly due to the fact that the Government at the last moment have pressed upon the House proposals which were never recommended by the Speaker's Conference, and which apply to Ireland, while the great majority of the representatives of the Irish people indignantly protest against their inclusion. Inevitable embarrassment must follow from a state of things such as that. But, for my own part, although I think the Government were wrong to take this course, and although I expressed my views in unqualified terms in the Debate last night, so anxious am I that the Government should not be embarrassed in the conduct of this Bill, that, although I could not vote against my hon. Friends below the Gangway in the last Division, I, and I think most of my colleagues on this bench, did not vote against the Government, since they attached importance to the matter and put on Government Whips, and declared it was a case in which the future prospects of the Bill might possibly be endangered. Therefore, although I cannot vote against the proposal, which, on merits, I think is a wise proposal, on this occasion I shall adopt the same course.
The right hon. Gentleman has given us the usual exhibition, to which we have now become accustomed from the Front Opposition Bench, in regard to its attitude to every threat of the Government. Whenever the Government threaten a General Election, or whenever they threaten that any action of the Front Bench opposite will mean the end of the Bill, the Front Opposition Bench immediately succumbs. If they would take a lesson from the tactics of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson), they would have a great deal more respect in this House and in the country. But what is the situation? The Home Secretary has told us that he cannot entertain this, because the delay involved would put the Bill in peril. Then why did the right hon. Gentleman put on his Whips in the last Division? There was, on a proposal which was expressly barred by the Speaker's Conference, an opportunity of a free vote in the House, but on that occasion the Government put on their Whips in order to muzzle the freely-expressed opinion of the House. Had it been left to the free opinion of the House, there is no doubt that the Motion to recommit in respect of Irish redistribution would have been defeated, analyse the figures as you like. Everybody knows that the Liberal Whips have been humiliated by standing at the door and keeping men here to vote for the proposal of the right hon. Member for Trinity College. No more humiliating spectacle has been seen than men in that position having to coerce and intimidate others into voting against their convictions. I should have thought that the Government, in these circumstances, would have allowed a free vote to the House. After all, this Government has set up a War Aims Committee, and among those war aims is justice to small nations. Yet they have expressly put on their Whips this afternoon in order to stifle the voice of a majority in a small nation, and one of the Tellers in the Lobby is the Chairman of the War Aims Committee. I hope he will issue a leaflet on this point, and submit it to the Censor. I have no doubt the Home Secretary would pass it, so as to enlighten the public on the sincerity of their aims.
What is the situation? Here is an opportunity, if you are going to have redistribution in Ireland, to get a true reflex of Irish opinion in the House of Commons—an attempt to secure minority representation. It is quite true that, on the general question of proportional representation, the House decided against it for Great Britain. But this Parliament has decided that Ireland is a case where proportional representation can very fairly be tried. After much discussion, and long controversy, in the case of the Home Rule Bill it was decided, as has already been pointed out, that in Ireland you had the greatest difficulty in obtaining a fair representation of minorities, and consequently there, if anywhere, an opportunity should be given by proportional representation to these minorities to exercise their proper weight in representative assemblies I am not sure my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond) did not move the Amendment for proportional representation on one of those occasions. I remember his arguments had a great effect upon my mind. He always, in those days, spoke with great force and lucidity. He is now a silent Member on that bench. [An HON. MEMBER: "Muzzled!"] Oh, no, he sometimes has a little to say about the crops he grows in Richmond Park. But here is an opportunity for him this afternoon to raise his voice on a great question of public policy—a question, too, upon which he has been consistent throughout his career. He has abandoned Free Trade; he has abandoned Home Rule; he has abandoned Liberalism, but here is a chance to show that he has, at least, been faithful to proportional representation. Let him show it. Let him stand forth and show that he is in no way influenced by the position which he holds as a member of the Government, that he is willing to sacrifice these things for his cherished, lifelong conviction, and he will earn the admiring gratitude of all his countrymen. Possibly he has now changed his mind. We hear that a new Zionist State is to be set up. Are we to understand that he will square his reputation for consistency by saying that it is to be reserved as a blessing for the new Zionist State in Palestine? I am quite willing to give way to the right hon. Gentleman. [An HON. MEMBER: "He will not budge!"] I shall be very sorry if the right hon. Gentleman will not show how strongly he agrees with me. I have no doubt he will respond to the appeal I now make, and that he will rise and show that once more he is a free, and, above all, a consistent man. This proposal is to be turned down. Minorities are to go unrepresented in Ireland under a gerrymandered system of redistribution. Ireland is to be redistributed on a basis totally unfavourable to the rest of the United Kingdom. Why is it to be done? A ukase has been issued by the right hon. Member for Trinity College. He is now the autocrat behind the throne. We have reverted to the old system of government. The "Garrison" once more rules; it is the "Garrison" that pulls the strings. But the satire of it is that we should see this exhibition of national hypocrisy in the midst of a War which we are fighting for small nations.
May I make an appeal to the Home Secretary? He expressed a fear that the acceptance of this Amendment would involve a great expenditure of time and debate. Would the right hon. Gentleman propose an arrangement with the Nationalist party that they should agree to an early closure of their Amendment, and in that way reduce the possible risk of expenditure of time?
I trust the Government may see their way to face the small difficulty which this Amendment introduces. It is only a small thing, but if hon. Members enact it they will be doing something which would gratify the great majority of the people of Ireland. We have a committee in Ireland on proportional representation, and certainly as far as the members of that committee are concerned we are the only committee in the South of Ireland which has upon it members of every shade of political opinion in Ireland. One of the secretaries is, or was, a Republican of a moderate type. I hold Unionist principles, and from myself to him, shading downwards, every sort of opinion is represented. If that is so, it would be worth while for the Government to meet us on this small point. I dare not speak for Belfast, but I do say that as far as Dublin goes it would be a very great thing for us Unionists or Protestants or Conservatives, or whatever you like to call us, to have proportional representation for the city of Dublin, which is divided into seven divisions, and I am convinced that under proportional representation we should get our proper quota of representation, and Dublin would return one Unionist member. Under this Bill we Unionists get no member except one outside Dublin for the Division of Rathmines, and surely in Dublin, where there are so many Unionists who make large contributions to the rates, we ought to have one representative. I suggest that it is worth while the Government doing this. Minority representation is more important in Ireland than anywhere else, and I am sure that I am betraying no secrets when I say that this question is one of the greatest difficulties which is facing the Irish Convention at the present moment. I shall support the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for West Belfast.
I desire to say that as a Nationalist I wish to see minorities represented. There was a time when I was in a minority myself, and, therefore, I can understand how minorities feel. I quite agree with the hon. and gallant Member that it might be a good thing if Dublin had a Unionist member. One of the most frequent complaints in our large centres of population is that under the party system minorities are not represented. If it be true, and it is true, that the Speaker's Conference recommended this particular species of proportional representation, and if it be true, as it is, that it is in the Home Rule Act, I want to know why there should be any change of policy in this Bill. With regard to what the Home Secretary has said respecting the danger of the Bill if this Amendment is accepted, somehow I think the Government can get over that difficulty if they are in earnest. They seem to be able to rush things in an extraordinary fashion, and if it be the case that at the last moment they have introduced redistribution, cannot the same thing be done in regard to proportional representation? I have only had two days' notice with regard to this redistribution scheme, and yet the right hon. Gentleman tells us that proportional representation has been discussed two or three times in this House, and that it has been before the public for a long time. On these grounds he says that he cannot consider it, and he gives us only two days to make up our minds as to the course we will adopt, although no notice whatever has been given to our constituencies. Although it is claimed that this matter has been fully argued, I do hope the right hon. Gentleman who is leading the House will allow us to have a free vote, because it appears to me that the Members of the House of Commons at the present time hardly have any rights. The great majority of those who will vote against us are in some way connected with the salaried posts of the Government, and when the Whips are put on the House will have no chance whatever. It is time that kind of thing was put an end to. In this House we ought to be free to exercise our independent judgment on a question which affects our constituencies and the country generally.
In view of all the circumstances, I hope the Government will leave this vote to the free judgment of the House. I see no reason why they should not do that, because all the provious votes on the question of proportional representation have been left to the free judgment of the House. There is another reason why they might do it. There is the great principle at stake that small nations should have the right to govern themselves according to their own wishes and desires. It might, therefore, be a good thing to leave the matter to the Irish Members to decide. In any case, I am sure that, so far as organised labour in Ireland is concerned, there is no division of opinion on the point that there ought to be some method of proportional representation. I may be asked whom do I take as the spokesman of organised labour in Ireland. I do not go to the representatives of the Orange movement in Ulster to know what organised labour thinks, but I go to such organisations as the Irish Trade Unionist Congress, and if you go there you will find no doubt as to their opinion upon this subject. The only way in which labour in Ireland will get a fair share of representation is by some such proposal as it being put forward now. The hon. Member for North Derry said that labour there under this scheme would probably get two seats provided they were Labour representatives of the right stamp. [An HON. MEMBER: "He means Unionists!"] That means that the Unionists in Belfast are going to dictate to labour as to the kind of man they are going to put forward. There have been great industrial movements and upheavals both in Belfast and Dublin, and I wonder how much connec- tion hon. Members have had with this movement to qualify them to speak the minds of Labour representatives in Ireland. These industrial movements are more and more having difficult consequences, and I do not believe there is anybody who can think about the future of Ireland without seeing that they are going through a very difficult period in Irish politics, and I am convinced that the more the channels of representations can be deepened the more you will truly reflect the opinion of every considerable section of the people. The more you can make minorities responsible, the better service you are going to render to Ireland.
I should have thought that the representatives of Ulster would have been the very first to rally in support of a principle of this kind. We have always believed that they were much concerned about the rights of minorities in Ireland. This proposal is trying to provide for the rights of minorities, and the only point which has been argued against it is not against the principle itself. The people in Ireland have given up arguing against the principle of proportional representation and this House has done the same, because there is no argument to be used against it. It is a just and sound method of voting, but the same tactics have been repeated to-night with regard to this matter as were indulged in by the President of the Board of Trade upon the last occasion on which proportional representation was discussed in this House. The President of the Local Government Board watched the discussion quietly all day, he listened to everybody who spoke, including the Attorney-General, and he waited there, almost like some wily old political crocodile on the banks of the Nile, till he thought the moment had come, and then he raised difficulties and frightened hon. Members by the terrible consequences that would overtake the Bill and the delays that would be involved. The same thing has happened to-night and the Home Secretary on this occasion, like the President of the Local Government Board upon a previous occasion, has greatly exaggerated the difficulties that would be involved.
May I point out that you have this scheme practically already in the Home Rule Act, 1914, and consequently there would be very little difficulty in shaping this proposal? Surely you had better delay this Bill a few days, or even a week or two, rather than have a political system in Ireland which may be attended with unfair consequences, which some hon. Members of this House who are opposing this change I am sure will be the first to regret. I want this change brought about because I think labour in Ireland, and every section of opinion, should be represented, and I believe the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Belfast is one that will make that possible. Once more I appeal to the Government to leave this question to the free vote of the House, and I appeal to hon. Members to stand by the great majority of the Irish representatives in defence of this very fair and just principle.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The House divided: Ayes, 117; Noes, 181.
Division No. 128.] AYES. [7.44 p.m. Adamson, William Hill, Sir James (Bradford, C.) Reddy, Michael Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling John, Edward Thomas Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Redmond, Capt. W. A. (Tyrone, E.) Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Jowett, Frederick William Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) Beale, Sir William Phipson Joyce, Michael Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Black, Sir Arthur W. Keating, Matthew Robertson, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Tyneside) Bliss, Joseph Kennedy, Vincent Paul Robinson, Sidney Boland, John Pius King, Joseph Rowntree, Arnold Brady, Patrick Joseph Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Melton) Scanlan, Thomas Buxton, Noel Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) Chancellor Henry George Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Sheehy, David Clough, William Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Sherwell Arthur James Collins, Major Godfrey P. (Greenock) Lundon, Thomas Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Lynch, Arthur Alfred Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Condon, Thomas Joseph McGhee, Richard Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim S.) Cosgrave, James MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Spear, Sir John Ward Crooks, Rt. Hon. William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sutton, John E. Crumley, Patrick Marshall, Arthur Harold Sykes, Col. Sir Mark (Hull, Central) Davies, David (Montgomery) Mason, David M. (Coventry) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Denniss, E. R. B. Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Dillon, John Millar, James Duncan Tootill, Robert Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Molloy, Michael Toulmin, Sir George Duffy, William J. Mooney, John J. Trevelyan, Charles Philips Farrell, James Patrick Morrell, Philip Watson, J. B. (Stockton) Ffrench, Peter Muldoon, John White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Field, William Needham, Christopher T. Whitehouse John Howard Finney, Samuel Newman, Major John R. P. Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. Fitzgibbon, John Nolan, Joseph Whitty, Patrick Joseph Fitzpatrick, John Lalor Nugent, J. D. (College Green) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Galbraith, Samuel O'Dowd, John Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Glanville, Harold James Ogden, Fred Wing, Thomas Edward Graham, Edward John O'Malley, William Wolmer, Viscount Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) Gwynne, Stephen Lucius (Galway) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Wood, John (Stalybridge) Hackett, John O'Shee, James John Wright, Captain Henry Fitzherbert Healy, Maurice (Cork) Peto, Basil Edward Yoxall, Sir James Henry Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Hearn, Michael Louis Pringle, William M. R. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Helme, Sir Norval aWtson Raffan, Peter Wilson Devlin and Mr. Anderson.
NOES. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Brace, Rt. Hon. Wiliam Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Brassey, H. L. C. Craik, Sir Henry Allen, Major W. J. (Armagh, N.) Bridgeman, William Clive Currie, George W. Archdale, Lieut. Edward M. Brookes, Warwick Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. Ashley, Wilfrid W. Bull, Sir William James Denison-Pender, Capt. J. C. Baldwin, Stanley Burdett-Coutts, William Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Butcher, John George Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Carew, Charles R. S. (Tiverton) Du Pre, Major W. Baring Barnett, Captain R. W. Cator, John Edge, Captain William Barnston, Major Harry Cautley, Henry Strother Fell, Arthur Barrie, H. T. Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.) Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich) Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Beck, Arthur Cecil Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. Fleming, Sir J. (Aberdeen, S.) Bellairs, Commander C. W. Clynes, John R. Fletcher, John Samuel Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Foster, Philip Staveley Bentham, George Jackson Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Ganzoni, Francis John C. Blair, Reginald Colvin, Col. Richard Beale Gelder, Sir W. A. Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffth- Coote, William Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred Bowden, Major G. R. Harland Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W. Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) Greig, Colonel James William Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Gretton, Colonel John Boyton, James Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.) Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich) Macleod, John Mackintosh Rothschild, Major Lionel de Hanson, Charles Augustin Macmaster, Donald Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Macpherson, James Ian Samuels, Arthur W. (Dublin, U.) Harris, Rt. Hon. Leverton (Wor'ter, E.) Maden, Sir John Henry Samuel Samuel (Wandsworth) Harris, Sir Henry P. (Paddington, S.) Magnus, Sir Philip Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. G. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Maitland, Sir A. D. Steel- Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) Hewart, Sir Gordon Marks, Sir George Croydon Smith Harold (Warrington) Hewins, William Albert Samuel Meux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Mitchell-Thomson, W. Stanley, Hon. Sir Arthur (Ormskirk) Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E. Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Starkey, Captain John R. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Morison, Thomas B. Stewart, Gershom Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Mount, William Arthur Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Sykes, Col. Sir Alan John (Knutsford) Hume-Williams, William Ellis Neville, Reginald J. N. Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Newton, Major Harry Kottingham Terrell, Major Henry (Gloucester) Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (Yorks) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Thomas-Stanford, Charles Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) Nield, Herbert Tickler, T. G. Jessel, Colonel Sir H. M. Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir J. Touche, Sir George Alexander Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid) Tryon, Captain George Clement Jones, W. Kennedy (Honrsey) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Turton, Edmund Russborough Jones, Wiliam S. Glyn- (Stepney) Parker, James (Halifax) Walker, Colonel William Hall Kellaway, Frederick George Parkes, Sir Edward E. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Parrott, Sir James Edward Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.) Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Weston, Colonel J. W. Larmor, Sir J. Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse) Whiteley, Herbert J. Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding) Williams, Colonel Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Williamson, Sir Archibald Levy, Sir Maurice Perkins, Walter Frank Wilson-Fox, Henry Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Philipps, Captain Sir Owen (Chester) Winfrey, Sir Richard Lindsay, William Arthur Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Worthington Evans, Major Sir L. Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Pratt, J. W. Yate, Colonel C. E. Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George Younger, Sir George Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Quilter, Major Sir Cuthbert TELLER FOR THE NOES.—Lord Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Randles, Sir John S. Edmund Talbot and Captain Guest. McCalmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A.
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, at the end, to add the words, "and the Amendments to Clause 38 and to the First Schedule, Section 40, Sub-section (4), standing in the name of Mr. Clancy."
The question raised by my Amendment was before the House in Committee and on Report, but I make no apology whatever for taking this last opportunity of impressing upon the House the desirability and justice of altering the Bill in the direction which I suggest. I confess I cannot understand why the Chief Secretary for Ireland—for, of course, he is the one individual who is responsible—does not make the concession which is now demanded. I fancy—I do not say it is the fact—he was willing at one time to grant it, and I cannot see what can have induced him to come to a contrary conclusion. I have heard—I do not assert it of my individual knowledge—that he would make the concession if an agreement could be obtained amongst the Irish representatives. What has been the history of this matter? A deputation waited upon the right hon. Gentleman two or three months ago, and it consisted of representatives of all parties in Ireland. It contained several representatives of the Ulster Unionist party as well as of the Nationalist party, and it was accompanied by the officers concerned, these officers including representatives of what is called Ulster opinion—that is to say, Unionist opinion in Ulster, and Nationalist opinion in the rest of Ireland. On that occasion I was honoured by both sides in being asked to introduce the deputation and to explain to the Chief Secretary the grounds upon which we invited him to make this concession. On that occasion, too—and this I assert without any fear of contradiction—there was absolute unanimity upon the question at issue; and I think the Chief Secretary will bear me out in that, because he was present when I spoke. He heard all the speeches made on that occasion, and he will agree there was no difference of opinion expressed at all.
8.0 P.M.
A second occasion arose when the question was once more raised and when, as I contend and as I think the right hon. Gentleman will admit, there was again a unanimous expression of opinion—in other words an agreement. That occasion was in Committee on the Bill, when, the Government not having themselves moved in the matter, I proposed an Amendment, the purport of which I will explain presently. On that occasion several members of the Ulster Unionist party were present. I think one or two, or more, of them spoke on that occasion, and everyone who spoke agreed with the Nationalist representatives who spoke also on that occasion. There was no sign whatever of dissension. There was, therefore, as I concluded, absolute agreement amongst the Irish representatives, with one exception which I mentioned on a previous occasion and which I feel bound to mention again in justice to the hon. Member himself, namely, the hon. Member for the City of Cork. They were two occasions upon which the unanimous voice of the Irish representatives was raised in favour of the proposition which I made, and which I now want to make again. After that the question was again raised on Report. The Government, through the Chief Secretary, refused to make the concession we demanded, and I brought the question up again on Report. On that occasion it appeared rather strange to me that the hon. Baronet the Member for Mid-Armagh (Sir J. Lonsdale) rose in his place and for the first time gave expression to any dissent on the part of the Irish Ulster representatives to the proposition which I was making, and which other members of the party also supported. On that occasion the hon. Baronet agreed with the Government in saying that they ought not to make the change to which I have referred, and to which I am about to refer, but the hon. Baronet was, if I am not mistaken, present on the first occasion on which this question was raised in Committee and never expressed a single syllable of dissent.
What are we asking? We are asking nothing but what is proposed for England and Wales, and, I think, Scotland, although I am not quite sure of that. At any rate, we are asking for what is actually proposed in the Bill for England and Wales in Clause 11, Sub-section (2)—at least, this is what we asked originally—namely, to have the local officers elected by the local bodies who have hitherto had charge of the registration work made registration officers. This is what we asked at first. That proposition was actually contained, as I have mentioned, so far as England and Wales were concerned, in Clause 11, Sub-section (2). That was rejected. On Report we came to the conclusion that it was no use our proposing that all the local officers in the counties should be made registration officers. We came to the conclusion that the Chief Secretary had manifestly such an intention to exclude them from the purview of the proposed Amendment that it was no use to mention their case any further, and therefore we concentrated on improving their position in another part of the Bill, namely, in the Schedule. We did, however, persist in asking that the town clerks of the six most important urban centres in Ireland should be made—as they are made everywhere in England—registration officers instead of the clerks of the peace who are nominated by the Imperial Government, and are not within the control of any local body. On the present occasion we ask for this small concession, and I am not dealing, therefore, with the case of the secretaries of the county councils, but simply with the town clerks of the six large urban centres in Ireland. We seek to make them the registration officers for the areas within their jurisdiction.
I want to know why this concession should not be granted. If it is made for England and for Wales, if not also for Scotland—I think it must be made for Scotland also—why should it not be made for Ireland? What reason is there? I have listened to the Chief Secretary on more than one occasion, and I state in his presence—and I do not think he will contradict me—that he has never yet given a reason for it. I do not think he has ever yet given, I will not say any reasonable explanation, but any explanation. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman what I think he has done. He has not explained why the change was made, why the transfer of duties took place from the local officers to the clerks of the peace in the case of Ireland alone. What he has done is to make it clear that, even if that took place, no injury was done to the local officers concerned. That is not explaining why the change is proposed, and I am really curious to understand why it is proposed at all. If the officers concerned, the town clerks and their staffs, are to perform the same duties that they have hitherto performed, and he contends that they are to perform them, then why is the change made at all of bringing the clerks of the peace into a position hitherto occupied by the town clerks? I have asked that question, I think, before. I have never had an answer to it, and I do not believe any answer can be given—I mean any satisfactory answer—unless there is something hidden, mysterious, and unexplained—perhaps unexplainable—to be stated on this occasion. I am now going to explain what really we want to do. What seems clear to us, in the first place, is that the clerks of the peace have in boroughs had practically nothing to do with registration up to the present, and, moreover, that the town clerks to whom I have referred—really the local registration officers for their respective constituencies or boroughs—have had practically everything to do with registration there as registration officers, while the clerks of the peace have had nothing to do with it, practically speaking. I have looked into the matter two or three times, and I venture to repeat what I stated on the first occasion on which I spoke on this matter, that up to the present moment, and at the present moment, the clerks of the peace have had only one duty practically to discharge, namely, to issue what is called a precept to all the other officers concerned in the work of registration, and that their duty then and there ended.
I wish now to make a correction in a statement I made on the last occasion through inadvertence. I stated that they had one other duty to perform, namely, the printing of the lists, the keeping of an office for the sale of them, and the sale of those lists to the public. I was thinking of the case of the county secretaries and not of the town clerks, and I made that mistake inadvertently. I now say that the town clerks are the persons who have hitherto printed the lists, who have kept the lists for sale, and who have sold them to any member of the public who requires a copy of the electoral lists. That being the case, what does the right hon. Gentleman propose to do? He proposes by this Bill to take away from the town clerks the duty of preparing the lists which they have hitherto discharged, and to put in their place the clerks of the peace who have not hitherto had to discharge those duties, and who, in fact, have discharged only one duty, namely, that of issuing a precept to the other officers concerned with the work of registration. I repeat that I do not understand why this change was made, and I confess I would like the Chief Secretary, even now, to state the reason for it. What he proposes to change, as I have already explained, is proposed to be the law, and I have no doubt will be the law, for England, Wales, and Scotland. What mysterious reason is there for making a change in the case of Ireland? Why does he propose to displace the local officers and put in their place Government officials? I would like to know what really is the reason for that. I repeat, although he has tried to explain or to show that they have not lost anything, he has given no reason, good or bad, for making the change at all. The right hon. Gentleman said more than once that the change which he has made in the Schedule puts these local officers out of court, because it provides for them the same work, and I presume the same remuneration as hitherto. It is said by the Chief Secretary that a certain Clause in the Schedule provides that they are to perform duties analogous to those which they think hitherto performed, and he thinks that covers the whole case. The local officers deny that these words are sufficient, but, apart from that altogether, there is no doubt that they have been reduced in status. Although they were not so described in any Act of Parliament, they were called chief registration officers, but now they are called overseers. Some people may not think much of this, but I myself lay some stress upon the fact that people's feelings should be considered as well as their pockets, and before you change their status from that of registration officers in supreme command to that of overseers in an inferior position, even although you do provide them with similar duties and equal remuneration, you ought to consult and to respect their feelings unless there is some overwhelming reason to the contrary, and I should like to hear from the Chief Secretary what is that reason.
Let me for a moment ask whether or not the provision that these clerks are to perform analogous duties, and I presume to receive equal remuneration is sufficient to safeguard their position. I will put to the right hon. Gentleman one or two tests. Hitherto, these town clerks have dealt with claims and objections. A vast number of claims have been made, especially in boroughs, by persons not already on the lists, and a great number of objections, sometimes twice as numerous as the claims, have been made. They have all been dealt with by the town clerks, and the clerks of the peace have had nothing to do with deciding them. I repeat it most emphatically. The only persons who have had to deal with them after the town clerks have returned their lists have been the revising barristers. Sometimes, not very often, appeals have been made from the decision of the revising barristers, and cases have been taken to the Court of Appeal, but I repeat again, and if necessary I will maintain it, because I am sure of it, that the town clerks have had to deal altogether with the claims and objections and with the printing of the lists until they have come before the revising barristers. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether under the Clause in the Schedule which he thinks is sufficient to meet the case of these officers the town clerks who have hitherto printed the lists are to print them still, whether the town clerks who have hitherto dealt with claims are to deal with them in the future, and whether the town clerks who have hitherto dealt with objections are still to deal with objections. I hope the Chief Secretary will not pass these questions by as unworthy of notice, and I hope the Members of the House who are present will recollect them, and will note whether or not the hight hon. Gentleman answers them point blank. In my opinion, it is not at all clear that these three duties are to be discharged by the town clerks in the future as they have undoubtedly been discharged by them in the past, and by nobody else. This is a matter mainly of local interest. It does not concern the prosecution of the War. The military and naval operations of the Empire will go on, even if the Chief Secretary were to yield in every respect to the demand I am making. I do not see that English, Scottish, or Welsh interests are concerned in this matter, except to see that justice is done and that a change which seems to be unreasonable shall not be made unless good reasons are given for it. In the next place, I want to assert most emphatically that the demand I make is not connected with politics. There are six town clerks in Ireland. I am sure that two of them are Protestants and staunch Unionists. I am pleading for them—I have good reasons for saying so, which I do not like to make public—just as much as I am pleading for the four town clerks who I believe are Catholics and Nationalists. Neither is there any religion in connection with this matter. I should be ashamed, on a question like this, to introduce considerations of religion or even of politics. The last consideration I present is that this Amendment is pressed—I am authorised to say so—in the name of the majority—indeed, of at least 75 per cent.—of the Irish representatives. I do not like to say anything more definite, but I imagine I could include at any rate some of the Ulster representatives among the supporters of this Amendment. I want to know why a purely local matter like this, not affecting the Empire, not affecting England, Scotland, or Wales, supported by a decided majority of the elected Irish representatives, and doing no injury, if it be carried, to any human being, should be opposed by the Government.
I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.
I would draw the Chief Secretary's attention to the fact that I and another hon. Member for Dublin introduced a deputation of the town clerks to the right hon. Gentleman in his office. The Town Clerk of Londonderry was then present. Apparently at that time the right hon. Gentleman was anxious to meet us, and, like my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Clancy), I cannot understand the change of front. I have had thirty years' experience of registration, and as president of the South Dublin Nationalist Registration Association I claim to know something about it. I can confirm what my hon. and learned Friend has said, that the clerks of the peace are practically only the post offices of registration work. It is the town clerks who do all the work in connection with registration. They have given satisfaction and it is difficult to understand why the Chief Secretary should seek to displace gentlemen who have given unbounded satisfaction. I put this from the business point of view, although, apparently, business is the last consideration which enters into the mind of the House of Commons. We do not do things in a businesslike fashion in this Assembly—in fact, if any man carried on his business in the same way as our legislative business is carried on he would be bankrupt in a year, if he—lasted so long. We have talk, talk, talk, but really no result. It is much the same with regard to the particular question under consideration. I would appeal to the Chief Secretary's common sense, if, indeed, he is allowed to exercise common sense, because from the manner in which business is carried on Ministers seem to be used as a kind of pawn to be pushed forward by an unseen hand. Whether there is a kind of Rasputin in connection with Great Britain I do not know, but what we are told in this House to-day is denied to-morrow, and there does not seem to be any sense of responsibility or power residing in the Gentlemen who control the destines of this House from the Treasury Bench.
The right hon. Gentleman may think I am rambling, but it is a principle which applies to the matter under consideration. I know the town clerks of Dublin and Black Rock. They know a great many of the people who either make claims or receive objections. They have a local and a personal knowledge which could not possibly be possessed by the clerks of the peace. As a democrat I object to this change. It is very difficult to know who is a democrat in these days, because in this House we have Gentlemen of red-hot Tory principles declaring themselves democrats. Democracy is fashionable now, and of course it has a large following. It is seriously proposed by those on the Treasury Bench that now we are on the eve of passing a new Franchise Bill, which will increase the work and the responsibility of the men who have to deal with registration, we are going to take the work away from them and put it on new shoulders—that is to say, we are going to take it away from the experienced men and put it into the hands of beginners. I await with some surprise and curiosity to know the reason why the right hon. Gentleman has changed his opinion since I introduced a deputation consisting of the Town Clerk of Dublin, who he admits is a most capable gentleman, and also the Town Clerk of Londonderry, who is as staunch a Unionist as I am a Nationalist. I entirely agree that this is neither a Nationalist nor a Unionist question. Nether religion nor politics enters into it. It is only a question of fair play; and there is no reason why these gentlemen should be disturbed until we get some argument to prove that they are not fit to carry out the duties which they have hitherto performed with benefit to the community and honour to themselves.
I wish to associate myself with the Amendment; but only so far as we may be correct in our understanding of what are to be the functions of the town clerks of these boroughs. We wish it put in the Bill that the interests hitherto enjoyed by the town clerks, and the work which they have done hitherto; or its equivalent work, and equivalent emoluments shall be continued, and that they will be treated exactly on the same plane as the Chief Secretary assured us the secretaries of county councils would be treated. He assured us that their position and emoluments will be exactly the same as under the old regime.
I told the House—certainly on two occasions—that that undertaking extends to the town clerk, and I introduced words into the Bill which have been accepted by the friends of the gentlemen who are concerned as having that effect. If there is any doubt as to whether they have that effect, in another place additions can be made to those words; but so far as human ingenuity can devise I have done all that could be done to secure the objects the hon. Member wants.
The right hon. Gentleman says the words he refers to have been accepted as satisfactory as regards town clerks, I presume by myself and others. I have repeatedly denied that, and I deny it now.
What we want to know is: Will the town clerks continue to do the work of receiving and arranging the claims and objections, as heretofore? It is a very simple question, and admits of a simple answer, and it would satisfy the feelings of all who are out for protecting the interests of the town clerks. We have only a few of them in Ireland, and they are an excellent lot of men, both North and South, and we are very anxious that their interests should be carefully guarded.
My silence might be misconstrued if I did not say a word on the Amendment. The hon. Member (Mr. Clancy) has again suggested that there is something in this Bill which degrades town clerks and takes away their work from them. If that is so, I certainly am not in favour of that. I have supported the Bill in its present form on the assurance of the Government that it will leave town clerks exactly in the position which they occupy now. I am a little responsible, perhaps, for the proposal of the Bill because, being a member of the Speaker's Conference and somewhat conversant with these matters, my views, perhaps, on the point prevailed to some extent, but only to this extent, that every official at present in existence should have preserved to him the functions and emoluments which he enjoys at present. I understood the Chief Secretary, only a few minutes ago, to say that was his understanding of the Bill also. As this matter has evidently caused some very sincere alarm and apprehension in the minds of the gentlemen whom it affects I hope, if there is the smallest doubt on the subject, the Chief Secretary will do what I understand he has promised and put the matter beyond any doubt when the Bill reaches another place. We are dealing with people's livelihood, we are dealing with their daily bread, and I certainly agree that in any measure passed through this House we ought to take no man's livelihood from him without compensating him. I have supported the proposals of this Bill because I understand it takes no man's livelihood from him. It does not interfere with his functions and preserves to him exactly those duties which are cast upon him at present. The hon. Member (Mr. Clancy) has referred to some of the work which the town clerk has to do. I agree that a town clerk at present prepares and prints the voters lists, and receives the claims which are sent in by persons omitted from the lists who claim to be placed thereon. The hon. Member said that the town clerk deals with these claims. That is a somewhat ambiguous expression. He does not deal with them in the sense of disposing of them but he deals with them in the sense that he publishes them. Similarly at the present time the objections are sent to the town clerk and, as the hon. Member has said, the town clerk sees to the publishing of them. My understanding of the matter does not go beyond that. I do not agree with the hon. Member that the town clerk prints the register. I understand that that is done by the clerk of the peace. The clerk of the peace is the beginning and the end, because he sends out the precepts which set the minor officials in motion, and when their work is done and it has been revised by the revising barrister it goes back to him and is printed. The Statutes provide that when the registers are printed they shall be handed over to the returning officer. My understanding of this Bill is that in all these matters in regard to which the hon. Member has correctly stated that the town clerks discharge certain functions, those functions are to be exactly preserved. I am not aware that any official in Ireland wants to take those duties away from the town clerk. What has led to a great deal of misunderstanding is the fact that one time the clerk of the peace did certain work in connection with the borough lists, and the proposal was made that that work should be taken away from the clerks of the peace. If each set of officials had confined themselves to the claim that each should be left exactly as they are at present, I do not think there would be any discussion or any misunderstanding. I was delighted to hear the Chief Secretary say that even at this eleventh hour if the matter is in doubt he will make it quite clear. Perhaps if details had been gone into before instead of generalities, and if, instead of saying that the town clerks were being degraded, the particular matters which are in question had been referred to specifically, as they have been referred to to-night, we might have come nearer agreement in the previous Debates. However, it is better late than never. We now have before us the specific points so far as the town clerks are concerned. So far as I am aware, no clerk of the peace wants to take from any town clerk the duties which that town clerk is at present performing.
I understood from the statement made by the Chief Secretary that he was to leave every officer as they were. We have heard statements made by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin (Mr. Clancy) that, while the town clerks have discharged practically all the duties in connection with the work hitherto, they are in future to act as deputies or overseers. We have heard statements made that no duties have been taken away from the present town clerks. If the present town clerks are to discharge the duties which they have discharged in the past, I would like to know what work remains for the Clerk of the Crown and Peace. He issues the precept, but the town clerk sets everything in order. The town clerk receives the nominations and objections, he prepares the books, he goes to the Court and sits in the Court with his representatives, and he has to examine all the claims and objections to see whether they are in order before the list is printed. When everything is finished in the Revision Court, and only when everything is finished, and when the revising barrister has ceased his work, the Clerk of the Crown and Peace takes up the work. I suppose it is the same in other cities as in Dublin. There, if you want a register, it is not to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace that you go; you go to the town clerk's office. No one would ever think of going to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace. You are proposing to create a number of new duties which you give to the Clerk of the Crown and Peace. Irish representatives are practically united on this matter. We have had a speech from the hon. Member for South Tyrone (Mr. Coote), and a speech from the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. Maurice Healy), who had no objections so far as I could gather.
Why should there be any distinction made between Ireland and Great Britain in this matter? We claim that the town clerk should be the registration officer of these boroughs. There is plenty of other work to be discharged by the Clerks of the Crown and Peace. You make a speciality of Dublin, and you have created revising barristers. You have a special Clause dealing with Dublin. You may say the revising barristers are there, and have been there for years. So has the town clerk. We who represent Dublin and who know the work of the town clerk and the staff, say that the town clerk of Dublin should be the registration officer. Why should you put upon him a humiliation by telling him that he has practically no more duties to discharge unless as an overseer. Up to the present he has done the work, he has employed his staff, and if there is to be any change the entire representatives of Dublin ask that the town clerk should do the work. We are backed up by our entire colleagues of the Irish party and by the hon. Member for South Tyrone, and when Unionists and Nationalists are absolutely at one upon this question, I cannot see what objection there can be to acceding to our request. The hon. Member for Cork (Mr. M. Healy) does not appear to have any other ground of objection than some idea about wanting to adhere to the Speaker's Conference, but the Speaker's Conference has been torn asunder in this House. I do not think it is going to be much of a sacrifice if the Chief Secretary agrees to our request.
I should not have troubled the House if it were not that the hon. Member for Cork repeated to-night what he has stated before, and what I believe to be not well founded. He stated that the clerk of the peace sets going all the registration work in the year because he issues the precept, and that he was the end because he issued the lists to the public. Neither of these statements is accurate. Take Dublin as a case in point. There the requisitions have to be issued months before the precept of the clerk of the peace is received by the town clerk, and the main register is compiled by the town clerk before the precept is delivered to him. On the second point the clerk of the peace does not issue the register to the public. It is issued by the town clerk, who is bound to keep copies available for members of the public and to sell them to persons requiring the same at a fixed rate. I am surprised that a Gentleman of such acumen as the hon. Member for the City of Cork should make a statement which is not accurate, because if he is remarkable for anything in his political career it is for accuracy in his statements and correctness in his law, as we all have had reason to recognise from time to time. The hon. Member also said that the reason for having two revising barristers in Dublin was that the County Court judge, the Recorder of the City, had too much other work to do. That is not the reason. The true reason is contained in the Preamble to the Act of 1857 providing for the appointment of two gentlemen as Dublin revising barristers. But I do not think I need trouble the House with that, as it really has no bearing on the point at present under discussion. Therefore I pass over this, as I also pass over various Acts of Parliament dealing with this matter which in other circumstances I would feel called on to cite as proving that while the clerk of the peace has a claim for expenses he has no duties to perform in connection with voters' lists in the borough of Dublin, and the other boroughs follow suit.
9.0 P.M.
I say that in the presence of the hon. Member for the City of Cork, who on the Report stage dwelt upon his intimate relation with the town clerk of Dublin, for whom he professed the greatest regard, and the town clerks of Belfast and Cork, the city which he represents—I was about to say worthily represents. I think I will venture to say so, as an old Cork man myself. But I have a letter from the town clerk of Cork thanking me for my attitude on the Report stage and my speech in opposition to the contention of the hon. Member for Cork, and I have a similar letter from the town clerk of Dublin; and yet the hon. Member repeats to-night the statement which he made concerning these gentlemen which they repudiate in the letters which I have here with which it is unnecessary to trouble the House. I do not like to say that the hon. Gentleman desires to mislead the House. Far be it for me to attribute that to any hon. Member. We are all honourable men, and so also is my Friend the hon. Member for the City of Cork, but his conduct is repudiated by those on whose behalf he professes to speak. The clerk of the peace has no duties to perform in connection with the voters' lists for the borough. He only receives the printed lists with the revising barrister's alterations, and hands them over to the printer to be prepared as the register. The corporation advertises and receives the tenders for the printing of the aforesaid lists and register, and defrays the expense of the work. Their servant is responsible and the duties concerning this register are now to be transferred to people over whom they have no control whatever.
And who have no experience.
And, as my hon. Friend says, with no experience whatever. They have no staff, and you are casting to the winds the men who have experience and a trained staff under their command, and you are placing the whole thing in the hands of those over whom the paymaster has no control. It is an outrage upon the very principle upon which this House acts. It is an outrage upon the Constitution because we, as paymasters of our Departments, insist upon having control by question and answer, by comment, by Motion and by Vote in this House. But I am only repeating what has been said so well by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for North Dublin and those who followed him. Our experience to-day has teen a very sad one. It illustrates what is hurled in our face day after day in Ireland now—that we have no influence. You have had the whole body of the Irish Members of Parliament below the Gangway to-day. You have had the vast majority of the representation of Ireland applying for concessions to be made, and no concession whatever has been made. The position is being made more difficult every day. We represent a constitutional movement, but we find that the ground is being cut from beneath our feet. I speak with experience of my own Constituency, where the ground is being cut from beneath my feet by Government action, not only at home, but in this House. The Government are furnishing proof that the words thrown in our face, that we waste our time in this House are true, after the experience we have had here, and after what we have seen for a long time in this House. If you do not meet us on this small and paltry alteration—for, after all, it is a small matter—my hon. and learned Friend, as I do, can only regard such action with very great regret.
I think the hon. Member who has just sat down has taken the measure of this proposal pretty accurately. This is the third occasion on which it has been debated in the House of Commons. The subject has occupied a considerable time of the House, and hon. Members are now again debating it. It is not a constitutional grievance at all, and it only has relation to a matter which the hon. and learned Gentleman himself has described as paltry. Now it is asked that the two decisions which have already been reached should be reversed. I cannot help thinking that there is a strong personal claim of one or, at any rate, perhaps, two or three Gentlemen of strong individuality who seek to reverse the decision arrived at. The matter stands in this way: When the Government came to consider the question of how registration was to be conducted in Ireland we found that the methods adopted there were different from the practice existing in this country, and a question was raised in Committee on the Bill with regard to the whole body of persons who had been engaged in the work of registration in Ireland. With regard to the whole of the thirty-two counties of Ireland, the class of gentlemen who performed the duties in connection with registration were the secretaries of county councils, and in county boroughs the gentlemen performing these duties were town clerks. The question was, What was to be done with respect to the new duties? In respect to the old duties, we had to consider the people who were discharging them and who were getting a livelihood in that way, and we had also to consider what was to be done with regard to the new duties under this Bill. In Committee, after hearing what had been said, I thought it was a perfectly reasonable thing that we should preserve the very men who had been performing the duties and were ready to perform them, and that they should get the emoluments they had been receiving.
I think it was the hon. Member for Tyrone who asked for further assurances on the matter. As I told him, I had already given assurances twice, and I repeat it for the third time, that it is the intention of the Government that every official at present discharging duties in connection with registration shall have preserved to him the work, functions, and emoluments that he has had before. That seems comprehensive enough. I have got a very careful draftsman to draft a provision to secure the object in view, that the men who are already discharging the duties should not be deprived of the discharge of the duties, or emoluments, or at any rate that there should be a case for compensation. As I have said, a very careful draftsman is to put that in the Bill, and it is an obligation upon the registration officer, that is the Clerk of the Crown, that the duties shall be performed by the persons who are already discharging them. On this third reiteration of the argument, the question is whether those words will pass muster and are sufficient for the purpose. If any doubt can be thrown upon them, then I repeat what I said before, that I will take steps in another place to have words introduced which shall make the matter clear. How does the matter stand? Those persons who at present perform the duties in connection with registration are to continue the performance of those duties, and also to perform the analagous duties in consequence of this Act. I thought we had arrived at a common-sense arrangement, and if there had not been the intervention of strong interests in this matter, I should have thought we had arrived at a common-sense and business arrangement.
If there is any imputation made, I take leave to say that I have advocated no personal interests at all.
There is no imputation. There are six gentlemen concerned in this in the counties, and six town clerks in the county boroughs, and it is proposed to make them an exception from the general principle that the people who are already discharging the duties are to continue to discharge them.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain whether there is any exception in the case of town clerks in England?
I have no concern with that part of the Bill which relates to England. I have sufficient duties of my own with regard to Ireland. The principle decided upon is that the registration officers are to continue their duties.
If the personal interests of these gentlemen are affected, why should they not protest?
The hon. and learned Member had better think it over. There are other things besides money. I come back to the main proposition that those who discharged these duties shall continue to discharge them. A specific question was put to me, pointing out that the town clerks discharged certain duties. As to all those duties, they are entitled to have the discharge of them from the language I have quoted. That is the intention. The new duties called into being are the duties which were performed in the Revision Courts, and those duties by the form of the Bill are devolved on the registration officer, who is the Clerk of the Crown and Peace. The position of the registration officer is that, as a servant of the Crown, his salary is in no way dependent on any local influence, and, with regard to the counties in Ireland, it has been accepted as a satisfactory arrangement that the Clerk of the Crown and Peace shall discharge these new duties. I cannot conceive why it should be thought necessary to raise this question a third time. For reasons which I hope are now abundantly clear, I do not see my way, on grounds of consistency and continuity and business dealing with business questions, to depart from the decision that this House has arrived at on two occasions with regard to this matter.
I would not have intervened but for one remark made by the right hon. Gentleman. The case for the town clerks has been very well put forward by those acquainted with the arrangements in the cities. The right hon Gentleman stated that the arrangement made in Committee has been accepted as satisfactory in respect of the secretaries of county councils. I know that is not the case. It has not been accepted as satisfactory by the secretaries. The secretaries, seeing that they had no chance whatever owing to the attitude adopted by the right hon. Gentleman of succeeding in becoming registration officers, as they think that registration officer under this Bill means practically the class of work which they have been doing up to the present, proceeded to make the best of what they regarded as a bad bargain. That is quite a different thing from accepting it as satis- factory. I know the minds of a good many of the secretaries of county councils, and I am certain that I am in a position to speak the mind of every county secretary in Ireland, and I repudiate the statement which the right hon. Gentleman has made that the arrangement made in Committee in respect of the county secretaries was satisfactory.
Question put, "That those words be there added."
The House divided: Ayes, 85; Noes, 167.
Division No. 129.] AYES. [9.20 p.m. Adamson William Hackett, John Parrott, Sir James Edward Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling Hayden, John Patrick Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Hearn, Michael Louis Pringle, William M. R. Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Helme, Sir Norval Watson Reddy, Michael Black, Sir Arthur W. Hemmerde, Edward George Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Bliss, Joseph John, Edward Thomas Redmond, Capt. W. A. (Tyrone, E.) Brady, Patrick Joseph Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Rowntree, Arnold Brunner, John F. L. Jowett, Frederick William Scanlan, Thomas Bryce, J. Annan Joyce, Michael Sheehy, David Burns, Rt. Hon. John Keating, Matthew Sherwell, Arthur James Buxton, Noel (Norfolk) Kennedy, Vincent Paul Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) Clancy, John Joseph King, Joseph Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Cosgrave, James Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Crumley, Patrick Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Sutton, John E. Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Lynch, Arthur Alfred Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Devlin, Joseph McGhee, Richard Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Dillon, John MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Tootill, Robert Duffy, William J. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Watson, John Bertrand (Stockton) Farrell, James Patrick Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Molloy Michael White, Patrick (Meath, North) Ffrench, Peter Morrell, Philip Whitehouse, John Howard Field, William Nolan, Joseph Whitty, Patrick Joseph Finney, Samuel Nugent, J. D. (College Green) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Fitzgibbon, John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Flavin, Michael Joseph O'Malley, William Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Galbraith, Samuel O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Wing, Thomas Edward Gilbert, J. D. O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Glanville, Harold James O'Shee, James John TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Graham, Edward John Outhwaite, R. L. Boland and Mr. Mooney. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)
NOES. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Hope, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Edin., Midlothian) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Coote, William Horne, Edgar Allen, Major W. J. (Armagh, N.) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Archdale, Lieut. E. M. Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) Hume-Williams, W. E. Baldwin, Stanley Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Jackson, Lieut.-Col., Hon. F. S. (York) Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Craik, Sir Henry Jessel, Colonel Sir H. M. Barnett, Captain R. W. Currie, George W. Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Barnston, Major Harry Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, E.) Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Beale, Sir William Phipsen Denniss, E. R. B. Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Beck, Arthur Cecil Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Kellaway, Frederick George Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Bentham, George Jackson Du Pre, Major W. Baring Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Blair, Reginald Edge, Captain William Larmor, Sir J. Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue Fell, Arthur Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Lee, Sir Arthur Hamilton Bowden, Major G. R. Harland Fitzpatrick, John Lalor Levy, Sir Maurice Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W. Flannery Sir J. Fortescue Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.) Fleming, Sir J. (Aberdeen, S.) Lindsay, William Arthur Boyton, James Fletcher, John Samuel Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Brace, Rt. Hon. William Foster, Philip Staveley Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Brassey, H. L. C. Ganzoni, Francis John C. Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Bridgeman, William Clive Gelder, Sir William Alfred Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Brookes, Warwick Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Bull, Sir William James Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) McCalmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A. Butcher, John George Gretton, Colonel John MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Carew, Charles R. S. (Tiverton) Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Mackinder, Halford J. Carnegie, Lieut.-Colonel D. G. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich) Masmaster, Donald Cator, John Hanson, Charles Augustin McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Maden, Sir John Henry Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich) Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.) Magnus, Sir Philip Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Harris, Sir Henry P. (Paddington, S.) Marks, Sir George Croydon Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. Healy, Maurice (Cork) Marriott, J. A. R. Clough, William Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Meux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth Clynes, John R. Hewart, Sir Gordon Mitchell-Thomson, W. Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Hewins, William Albert Samuel Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Hinds, John Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Colvin, Col. Richard Beale Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Needham, Christopher T. Neville Reginald J. N. Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen) Turton, Edmund Russborough Newton, Major Harry Kottingham Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Nield Herbert Samuels, Arthur W. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Weston, Colonel J. W. Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Whiteley, Herbert J. Parker, James (Halifax) Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. G. Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Parkes, Sir Edward E. Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Liverpool) Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea) Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Smith, Harold (Warrington) Wilson-Fox, Henry Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse) Spear, Sir John Ward Winfrey, Sir Richard Perkins Walter F. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A. H. (Asht'n-u-Lyne) Wood, John (Stalybridge) Peto, Basil Edward Stanton, Charles Butt Worthington Evans, Sir L. Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. H. Yate, Colonel C. E. Pratt, J. W. Stewart, Gershom Yoxall, Sir James Henry Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Ches., Knutsf'd) Randles, Sir John S. Thomas-Stanford, Charles TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Tickler, T. G. Edmund Talbot and Captain F. Guest. Robinson, Sidney Tryon, Capt. George Clement
Proposed words, as amended, there added.
Main Question, as amended, again proposed, "That the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 8 standing in the name of Secretary Sir George Cave, the Amendment to Clause 18 standing in the name of Mr. Herbert Samuel, and the New Clause and Schedule standing in the name of Secretary Sir George Cave as Amendments to be moved on recommittal."
I desire to say a few words more on this question of voting. The discussions which have taken place last night and to-night must, I think, have convinced the Government of the folly and unwisdom of the course which they have adopted. We are, as I have already pointed out, in an extraordinary position, because we are face to face with men who are without any control over the Bill, and who have no power of making concessions, or of practically dealing with the House of Commons in the way it has been customary in the past history of this House. Nothing has been more plainly made manifest in the course of these discussions than that the right hon. Gentlemen who are in control of this Bill have their hands tied. They were ordered to do a thing which it was perfectly manifest they did not approve of themselves, and which they were bound to carry through the House of Commons by the coercion of the Government Whips. Before the late question was decided there was one observation made by the Home Secretary in the last speech which he addressed to the House on the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for West Belfast. I trust it will not be repeated When he found that there was a great probability of the House, if left free, carrying the Amendment, he got up and treated us to a threat that if the Amendment was carried the Bill in itself would be endangered. That, I think, is a system of dealing with the House of Commons which ought to be definitely abandoned. The result of the speech was that a representative on the Front Opposition Bench got up and immediately said that he and his colleagues would not vote because they were unwilling to embarrass the Government. The incident shows the unreality of these discussions and the gross unfairness of the whole procedure of the Government. When the Government found that we had got arguments to which they could not reply, they indulged in a threat that the whole Bill was in danger. If it is in danger, it is solely owing to their misconduct in introducing, without any excuse or justification, the contentious matter which has been introduced. The Bill would have possibly gone through, and would have done so before now, if it had not been for the outrageous procedure of the Government in introducing this contentious matter.
We are going into Committee again. There are a large number, a very considerable number, of very important questions which concern Ireland only, and which are of a somewhat complicated nature. I do trust that the Government, in dealing with these questions, will avoid using threats. We have been putting forward the case of constituencies that are about to be disfranchised in Ireland, and the gerrymandering which has taken place. I think we are entitled to demand fair play and a full opportunity of discussing these matters. The reason I make this protest is because it is really grotesque and intolerably unfair that the Government, who themselves are responsible, and solely responsible, for all this trouble and discussion, and the prolongation of it, should turn upon us and say that we are endangering the Bill. We are going, as I say, to enter into a series of discussions dealing with Irish geographical problems, and questions as to the merits of which hon. Members in this House, who come from any part of Great Britain, are wholly unable to form any valuable judgment. I do not think anybody will contest that proposition. Would it be too much to ask the Government to leave us Irish Members to decide amongst ourselves—now that they have forced upon us, against the overwhelming majority of the Irish votes, this principle of redistribution in Ireland at this particular time, in spite of our warnings and protests—to decide as to the geographical division of Irish counties? Surely when it comes to decide that, common sense will teach the English Members to remain out of the House. They certainly will remain out of the House during the whole discussion. We might just as well address the House in the Irish language, so far as they could understand the boundaries of the different counties of Ireland. Could there be a more intolerable illustration of the condition of government to which we are subjected than that hon. Members should remain half-asleep in the Smoking Room, scattered about the Library, cursing—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]—shall I put it this way?—invoking blessings on our head for keeping them away from their homes until the Division bell rings, and then having to run in and be ordered into the Lobbies by Whips for a long succession of Divisions on questions as to the merits of which they are wholly ignorant, not having listened to the discussion, and if they had they would not be a bit wiser? Is not that true?
You are going to give a long series of illustrations to the Irish people of the intolerable interference of ignorant members in this country with Irish affairs. That is a very nice occupation for the House of Commons in the midst of this terrible War, and is it not enough to teach the people of Ireland, and the people of Great Britain, that all your talk about getting on with the War is pure humbug and hypocrisy? Getting on with the War! Is this the way to get on with the War, to give such a spectacle to the whole world as this House has presented to-night, and will present for the next two or three nights, and waste the time of the House all that time in order to give four seats to the Tory party? The hon. Member for Derry (Mr. Barrie) said it was a very small matter. I do not think it is a small matter that the British House of Commons, at a time like this, should spend three or four nights wrangling over a party question in Ireland, the whole upshot of which is the transfer of four seats to the Tory party, and, if the hope of the Government is realised, as the result of all our labours nothing will happen at all, because if the Convention succeeds all this will be scrapped and torn up. The House of Commons has never been dragged into so humiliating, so ludicrous, and so disgraceful a situation, and it has been dragged into it by men who will not come here to take the responsibility of their acts. The men who are in charge of the Bill, as I have said, have no responsibility in the matter. We know perfectly well that they were ordered to embark on this enterprise, and the men who have the responsibility will not face the House of Commons. And here we are, in the midst of this great War, engaged in this contemptible wrangle over party advantages in Ireland, though we were told ad nauseam here by Minister after Minister, and the Leader on the Front Opposition Bench, that all these party considerations should be laid aside, and the nation be united in pursuing the War. What is this but a party consideration, a small party squabble, because the Government have set aside the plain direction of the Speaker's Conference at the dictation of the right hon. Member for Trinity College?
I desire, as a Member who has not intervened very much, if practically at all, in the Debates of the last three or four years, since the War commenced, to join with my hon. Friend in the protest that has just fallen from him. I agree with my hon. Friend that this Coalition Government, in all its changing aspects, has presented a most disgraceful spectacle to the world. This Coalition Government was brought into existence for the purpose of successfully carrying on the War. All I have to say is this: I know very little internally as to how the War is being carried on, but I venture to hope that the generalship on the field of battle is something better than the generalship we have seen in this House. Whatever may be said for the relative merits of military leaders and military strategists against the interference of civilians in war affairs, I hope for some more conspicuous examples of tact, of decency, and of a consideration for opinion in the guides of the war in France and in Flanders than has been shown by the Gentlemen who represent the Coalition here.
What was the position which presented itself here to-night? I moved an Amendment, which made this simple and modest suggestion, that in the great cities of Belfast and Dublin we ought to have electoral machinery to secure minority representation similar to that which was accepted by the House when the Home Rule Bill of 1914 was passing through, and for the ten minutes I spoke in the House I could not be heard for a mob of under-secretaries who engaged in riotous conversation, until Mr. Speaker was compelled to rise and ask the mob to disperse. Without putting the Defence of the Realm Act into operation, the mob of under-secretaries hurried and scurried back to obscurity, waiting until a trumpet should sound again for them to march at the back of this Government, which has outraged every principle of constitutional debate in this House. This is the spectacle which is presented to the world by this great Imperial Government! Then when I ventured to submit this modest proposition, which is already the law of the land, which is incorporated in the Home Rule Act of 1914, and when I am supported even by such a violent Unionist as the hon. and gallant Member for Enfield (Major Newman), the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, of whom I may say there is no more courteous or considerate Minister or Member in this House, becomes absolutely violent. He declared that if you give minority representation to the Unionists in Dublin and the Nationalists in Belfast it will disfranchise the whole potential electorate who will come within the provisions of this Bill, not only in Ireland, but in this country, in Scotland, and in Wales. A more preposterous or more indefensible position I have never seen taken by any Minister in this House. Then what has the right hon. Gentleman to say on this question? The late Home Secretary rises and delivers a most eloquent speech in favour of the principles I have advocated in my Amendment; in fact, he says a simpler, a more just, moderate, and essential necessity for minority representation never existed, and he says that he would vote for it but for the fact that the Home Secretary says if he votes for that Motion, which gives Unionist minority representation in Dublin and a Nationalist minority representation in Belfast, he will endanger and shake the War Government. I confess I was somewhat astonished to see that a threat of that sort terrifying the humble Gentlemen on this bench, although privately I consider that perhaps it would not be such an Imperial calamity if the Government were shaken.
Above and beyond these simple Parliamentary tricks I want to know does conscience and political morality count for nothing in the controversies in which we are engaged here. Here a man may believe in a thing but he must not vote for it. A man may believe that the method suggested is the best for doing justice to a great new class that is to assume fresh responsibilities in constitutional affairs, but he must shrink from supporting it, and why? Because this is not a Government concerned with wide Imperial interests, but a wretched combination of conflicting politicians, most of whom are merely there to conserve the things they have. This reminds me of the time when the War was first declared, and when we were face to face, as we all know we are now, with the most terrific and tragic situation that this or any country has ever had to face. I remember at the very inception of that War, when we complained that there was not a single Minister on that bench, it subsequently turned out that they were behind the Speaker's chair wrangling as to who should become the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and they nearly wrecked the Government that existed at the time. These are the Gentlemen who are constantly lecturing us as to our duty, and as to the sacredness of maintaining national unity and the essential need of presenting a solid and united front to the common enemy, and yet they come here and play the gambler's game over a thing that does not count at all in those issues. It is not for me to determine who or what secret influence is at work in connection with this Government by which the people of Ireland are to be robbed of their liberties, while we are asked to listen to the sacred doctrines of liberty that are being fought for abroad.
What is the position? We are told that we are engaged in a battle for the freedom of small nationalities. Ireland is a small nationality. You go to Russia or America or any nations in Europe, and when your responsible agents and apostles go to these great democracies and preach about small nationalities they answer you by saying, "What about Ireland?" Let us take the simple thing, the question as to how Ireland is to be represented in the future in this Parliament, and what do we find? We are not allowed to govern ourselves in our own country. The pioneers, I the apostles, the standard bearers of the cause of small nationalities will not allow us, even in our purely internal affairs, to conduct our own business, and to voice our Own aspirations in our own native country because that does not suit some small remnant of reaction and ascendancy either in Ireland or England. Surely if that is unjustifiable and indefensible, and it is for nobody can defend it, there never was a greater scandal in the history of the world than that. While you are mouthing about small nationalities, and ask for a certain method by which the voice of Ireland, is to be declared in the Imperial Parliament, we are not only not allowed to express our opinions, but you tell us that if you agree to this you will rob the whole British people of the new privileges you have conferred upon them if Ireland is allowed the right to declare whether Catholics or Protestants in Dublin and Belfast are to be represented according to their principles.
We have been listening to Debates upon the question of conscientious objectors. I do not propose to go into that question, for it seems to me that conscience no longer counts in this House. If a man's conscience believes, as many of those who abstain or who vote with us in the Lobby believe, that a certain method of election is essential for minority representation, why should they not be allowed to support that view without a declaration from the Government that if they act according to their conscience they will wreck this powerful Government and, incidentally, strike a blow at the liberty of small nationalities. Was there ever such a commentary on the hypocrisy on the whole of these proceedings? I do not often come to this House, because I do not believe it is worth coming to. I have watched the wrangles in this House, and listened to the discussions, and to what is supposed to be the best contribution, of the wisdom of legislators and the common reservoir of wisdom that is supposed to guide our affairs in this critical hour in the trials and vicissitudes of the Empire. We do not discuss these things at all, because the Government are engaged in pettifogging, in tricking, in placing their friends in office, in exaltng the incompetent private Member into the hierarchy of government. That is what we are engaged in.
I say again that, so far as the ordinary observers are concerned—so far as men are concerned who feel strongly and passionately upon these things that constitute their convictons, and which to them are the things that count—this House of Commons plays fast and loose with them, and the Front Opposition Bench, by tricks, dodgery, and threats of blackmail, attempts to prevent the House of Commons from exercising its honest judgment upon the issues represented. As far as we on these benches are concerned, we venture to take this opportunity of entering our emphatic protest against the methods by which this latest transaction has been carried out. We here in this House are told that political necessity prevents us from securing these rights and privileges which the constitutional action of Parliament has extended to us. Surely, in view of this, all the talk about the rights of the people to determine their destinies is all make-believe and hypocrisy, when we are not allowed even to determine the method by which the votes of the people are to be exercised when the franchise is given them: we are not even allowed to fix the method by which the franchise shall be carried out When one of the hon. Members near me rose to oppose my Amendment he was not allowed to speak until the Home Secretary had risen at that Table and informed us that if we pressed the Amendment, or if it were carried, it would endanger the Bill, and that probably the Government would resign.
10.0 P.M.
Let me say that I do not blame the Home Secretary. I attribute the blame entirely to the Chief Secretary for Ireland. In the first place, the Chief Secretary is not the spokesman of a small minority of Irish Members in this House. He ought to be the representative of the whole of Ireland. But we know he does not represent Ireland. He has been sent over there to mirror, as far as he can, the views, convictions, and aspirations of the Irish people. Yet he lends himself to this attack on the part of the minority. I confess my experience of the right hon. Gentleman—I am I sorry he is not present to hear me—is that I he comes here with prosy promises of pedantically expressed good intentions, and that he purposely lays down in an obscure way great and charitable principles. But the one thing about his Chief Secretaryship is that he will never do anything the Irish people want him to do. I should like to know whether, when the Boundary Commissioners were appointed, they consulted anybody in Ireland. Did they consult the representatives of the people? Did they consult any popular body in Ireland? Who were these mystic gentlemen, of whom we know nothing, who have marked out our boundaries—the boundaries of our constituencies over here in England, and who never consulted anybody in Ireland. What we do know about it is that there was one Irish official and one English or Scotch official, with Mr. Speaker, who presided, and, of course, Mr. Speaker was in that matter, as he is in the House of Commons, an impartial arbiter between the others. But there was no representative of Irish opinion. Irish opinion does not count, even on the question of how the boundaries are to be arranged for the representation of Ireland in this Parliament in the future. All I have to say is that if there is an English Member with a spark of intelligence in him, or even an Ulster member, with his larger draft upon public imagination with a spark of intelligence in him, or with democratic feeling, surely he will be outraged, as every man must be outraged, by a policy of this character, which only makes this Parliament despised, not only in the eyes of Irishmen, but of intelligent citizens everywhere.
I only wish to say a few words on the subject now before the House, and I do so for no other reason than to express my appreciation of the eloquence of my hon. Friend (Mr. Devlin). I do so more gladly because I know that ray hon. Friend is not so fierce as his words would lead one to suppose. I admire his intelligence, and also his superlatives. On this occasion he has carried the superlatives of his friends in a crescendo up to a point beyond which it would be impossible to carry them. The hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) spoke of the disgraceful things the Government are doing as exceeding anything in his recollection in this House. The hon. Member for West Belfast has gone further, and characterises them as the most scandalous in the history of the world. I do not think we could go much beyond that. But having listened to the speeches delivered by hon. Gentlemen opposite and to their superlatives, what has struck me is that no listener coming into the House during the Debate would imagine that the subject we were discussing was a question of redistribution in Ireland, affecting a very small number of constituencies which are to be altered by this Bill—a smaller number than are altered in Great Britain. Throughout the Debate one thing has been conspicuous by its absence. I have not heard any hon. Member from those benches venture to suggest that the present distribution of political power in Ireland is anything but anomalous and inequitable.
We have heard a good deal about the Speaker's Conference and of all sorts of matters such as my hon. Friend has described, but there have been no suggestions that the present distribution is fair. If I may venture to paraphrase in a sentence which appeared to be the speeches of my hon. Friends. I would say it was something of this sort. They get up and they say, "Mr. Speaker, England is about to crown 700 years of oppression by inflicting upon Ireland a system of equitable representation." For my part I am perfectly ready to bear my share of the responsibility, in spite of all the frightful scandals which we are told would be perpetrated if we took at their face value the strictures of my hon. Friend for the plain, straightforward attempt by the Boundary Commissioners to rectify within the limits of a few constituencies in Ireland anomalies which have been notorious for so many years.
We have listened to a speech marked by more than usual magnanimity from the hon. Member for the St. Augustine Division (Mr. R. McNeill), but there are obvious reasons for that magnanimity, because, for the first time during his Parliamentary career here, the hon. Gentleman can rejoice over a great victory. He sees in the decision taken by the House this afternoon one more victory of the Old Garrison in Ireland, and I congratulate him on this achievement of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College (Sir E. Carson).
We have seen to-day the fruition of the old Ulster rebellion. It began with the arming in Ulster, with the threats of rebellion which were too strong, for the late Liberal Government, Finally that Government was overthrown. Another took its place, and that was undermined. We finally got a Government which was exactly what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Trinity College wanted, because he himself was the dictator. We have in the decision of the House of Commons to-day an evidence of the final defeat of Home Rule. The hon. and learned Gentleman has spoken about setting up an equitable provision for representation in Ireland. Why did the Speaker's Conference refuse to deal with this question at all? Because it recognised that the existing position so far as Ireland is concerned was temporary, transitory, and provisional. Why have the Government decided to go back upon that decision? Because they believe the Home Rule Act is never to come into operation, because they believe the Convention is going to fail because they intend it to fail. They have, therefore, brought into existence what the hon. and learned Gentleman calls an equitable system, an equitable system which is going to perpetuate injustice as regards Great Britain but is to secure an increased Orange representation in this House. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his victory. He is well entitled to it—but what of the many hon. Members of this House who were returned here in the days before the War to see justice done to Ireland, who for a miserable pittance, for a wretched mess of pottage, have bartered their political souls? Those are the men with whom I have a quarrel. I have no quarrel with the hon. Gentleman; he has fought fairly. I quarrel with the traitors, and particularly with the arch-traitor who sits at 10, Downing Street.
In listening to the Debate to-night one begins to wonder what conceivable reason the Government have for the particularly provocative policy they seem to be adopting at the present time. I thought that when three years ago it was decided to suspend all registration for a series of years we were promised that there would be no controversial legislation introduced, and I do not understand by what principles of government we are now being ruled when, having suspended the whole system of registration for three years, whenever we want to show our independence in the House we are threatened with a General Election upon a register that cannot possibly reflect the opinion of the country. I thought that this par- ticular Franchise Bill was only dealt with by the House because in a series of Resolutions the House determined that it should be dealt with because it was non-controversial. In those Resolutions we never discussed Ireland at all, and, of course, it was known to be an extremely thorny question. It is all very well for the hon. and learned Member for St. Augustine's (Mr. R. McNeill) to talk as though it had always been clear to him that every country where the constituencies were unequal ought to be redistributed, but for a good many years the hon. and learned Gentleman and his Friends allowed these things to go on, and no one ever thought of altering them. No one complained that the constituencies were unequally distributed; but now, when we have decided to deal with England and to leave out Ireland, at the last moment, for reasons which I cannot understand and which it appears nobody understands, this bone of contention is thrown among us, and we are told that it is not an important but only a small matter—the transferring of four seats. What right has the Government, after suspending all the machinery of an election for three years, to say that it is only a small matter when others think it is a big matter? It seems to me that once the Government suspended all machinery for obtaining a constitutional expression of opinion in this country and made the register so stale that we could not have a fair election, they ought not to have taken up controversial questions at all.
We find on the Order Paper this week three or four acutely controversial questions which the Government, who are telling us day after day to get on with the War and do nothing else, bring in—measures that admittedly deal with a state of things after the War for which they have no mandate whatever. They do there exactly what they are doing here. They say those are small matters, and that they are going to deal with them. I want to know by what right they deal with them after telling us for three years that if we allowed the registration system to get stale we should have no controversial measures introduced into this House. The whole week's work is chock-full of controversial matters, and unless the House takes the matter into its own hands pretty soon we shall have one controversial question after another brought in because some particular Jack-in-office wants to see his particular pet scheme carried through. I do not see why we should find all the cherished principles for which we fought before the War thrown away during the War because someone who has never before been in Parliament, who has only come into Parliament because he is supposed to be a business man—wants to put his own peculiar ideas on to the Statute Book. These controversial questions ought never to be brought in. We are getting into a position, through the Government faking this out of our hands, of acute controversy, and the Government is responsible for it. I do not mind myself if the Government tell us that if they are beaten on this question they will resign. That would not give me a moment's anxiety; but when the Government tell me that if they cannot get their way they are going to the country on a register which we have deliberately made unrepresentative, I say we are threatened with a political outrage, and that they have no right to destroy the machinery of elections and then come down to bully freedom of judgment in this way. I do not altogether agree with my hon. and learned Friend who has just spoken (Mr. Pringle) in saying that the Government wish the Convention to fail. I do not believe for a moment they do wish it to fail, but I do believe that in bringing in this measure they are certainly causing a good many people in this country, and particularly in Ireland, to believe that they are not serious about the Convention. Why throw this apple of discord into our midst for the sake of four seats? Surely it would be only decent, when after a hundred years of fighting the Irish party have at last Home Rule on the Statute Book, that instead of doing anything to alter it they should have left Irish representation as it was.
It seems to me it is for the Government to show why this thing that they call a small thing has been done, and it is because I believe it has been done in the same spirit of ascendancy as all the legislation of a Ministry which largely represents a minority in this House, but which has been treated all through with the greatest loyalty by men who, like myself, profoundly disagree with them and wish they were not there, that I condemn this action. They take advantage of the time, knowing that we cannot get a fair opinion from the country, they having brought about that situation, and I think we have a right to claim that We should be treated with the greatest possible sympathy and tolerance, and that we shall not have these acutely controversial questions raised one after another. For that reason I greatly deplore what they are doing, and I am sure that if they take this reckless course they are going to break up the unity of the country. It can be imagined how, when people are trying to do their best in questions relating to the War, you cannot throw one apple of discord after another among them and have the country exactly the same as before. I am confident it is perfectly true, as the hon. Member for Belfast said, that in other countries where these things are discussed the way the Government have treated Ireland is not only distorted, but is very much exaggerated. It is bad, I know, but it is not as bad as it is represented to be by the agents of the Germans in foreign countries. Why give them little chances like this? Why on earth give them the chance, in the present terrible condition in Russia, where the name of England certainly does not stand as high as we would like it to stand, of saying, "They are at their old games again, and the Irish party are in revolt"? Four seats, and the whole of Petrograd will ring with this small thing! What is the good of it? What is the good of having these acutely controversial questions raised again? There is America. When we get splendid utterances like that of President Wilson calling upon us not only to be united, but to keep our hands clean—I should like people who read that speech to look, at the list of measures before the House this week—and not to take commercial advantage of the War, and when we have this appeal to go forward in the spirit in which we entered the War, why give our enemy the chance of dragging our name through the mud by all these controversies for no reason at all? It is time that the Government realised that they are here because they told us that there was to be no controversial legislation. Let this controversy be stopped, and let us get on with the War.
This is the first occasion since the War started that I have ventured to address the House on any matter brought before it, and I only do so now because I think my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hemmerde) has been asleep since the beginning of the War. He is very anxious to know what are controversial measures and what is a promise. I will tell him. No measure is controversial that the hierarchy that sits on the Front Bench thinks necessary to introduce in this War. It does not matter how they have fought it before the War, or if they have fought it on both sides. The moment they bring it forward they speak ex cathedrâ , and if a private Member gets up and opposes it he is wrong and is trying to impede the progress of the War. We have on that bench opposite hon. and right hon. Gentlemen, and on the bench behind private secretaries and private secretaries to private secretaries. They have even overflowed on to the third bench, and we have private secretaries to private secretaries of under-secretaries. In private life when they give you a promise they will do everything they can to carry it out, but a promise made by the Prime Minister or by the Home Secretary or by the Chief Secretary is a thing to be given at a moment to tide over an emergency. The moment they find they can throw it over for a party advantage it is thrown over. There is a different standard in political life than in private life. That has been shown us for some time back.
The hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division (Mr. R. McNeill) talked about anomalies. I quite agree with my hon. And learned friend the Member for North-West Lanark (Mr. Pringle) that the hon. Member for the St. Augustine's Division has had his triumph to-night. It is not so much his triumph as that of the man who has been in the Lobby during this Debate, but who has never sat on that Front Bench for five minutes since it started. That is the man who has had a triumph. You talk of anomalies! When you appointed Boundary Commissioners for England they were Englishmen; when you appointed Boundary Commissioners for Scotland they were Scotsmen; but when you appointed Boundary Commissioners for Ireland you took one Scotsman and two Englishmen. Is not that an anomaly? Does it not strike you as an anomaly that this scheme should be cut and dried over the heads of the Irish people, and that they should be told they have forty-eight hours to suggest their Amendments? Does it not strike you as an anomaly that the Boundary Commissioners in Scotland and in England consulted the town clerks and county councils as to what was a fair and proper measure of representation, and that you never consulted a single individual in Ireland, except a Scotsman, who presides over the Local Government Board? Does it strike you as an anomaly that when the scheme first came out certain Tory Members came to you and said that there was a chance of a Nationalist winning a seat, and you went down to the Assistant Commissioner and got the scheme changed in twenty-four hours? It makes me sick of this House and of the Prime Minister, who comes down here when anything is brought forward and says, "Do not let us talk about it; let us get on with the War." How many men are you going to add to your divisions at the front, or how many munitions are you going to put into the field, by telling Irishmen that you do not trust them and that you are going to tear up the Home Rule Act and perpetrate the meanest sham and fraud that was ever perpetrated by the meanest Government that ever sat in this House?
I wish to join in the protest from the Nationalist Benches against what is being perpetrated to-night in regard to Ireland. There are two aspects of this matter. In one sense what has happened is very small. It is quite true that by this manœuvre there is only a gain of four seats to the Unionist party. That is a very small matter. It is a petty larceny, but it has been committed by as mean a trick as any Government could be capable of, and those who have committed the theft are the thieves sitting on the Treasury Bench, who all look thoroughly satisfied with the work they have done. This question has a much wider outlook. The Government of the country has been charged by the great majority of the Members representing Ireland with a breach of faith. That charge is supported by hon. Members who were members of Mr. Speaker's Conference. It is charged against the Government that your Conference, Sir, decided that there should not be redistribution for Ireland, and, notwithstanding that decision and the decisions to which I and other representing Ireland were parties, the Government has insisted upon bringing in redistribution for Ireland. It is a charge of breach of faith of a serious character. If the charge depended entirely upon the representatives of Ireland, it would not be so strong, but when you have the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson) supporting us in the charge and when that charge is made, as I make it now in your presence. Sir, as you were the chairman of the Conference, I ask the Government whether they are doing wisely in incurring the censure which must fall upon them from the Allies of this country in the present War on the charge of breaking faith with Ireland? The breach of faith with Ireland is a scandal which discredits the Government and this House and must considerably weaken the effectiveness of this Government and of this country in the War and in its alliance with America and the other big Powers.
I have not said many words in this House for the last three or four years—I have been otherwise engaged—but I find it very hard to-night to sit here without joining with my colleagues in making my protest, as an Irish Nationalist, against the manner in which the present so-called Coalition Government for the expeditious prosecution of the War is carrying on the task which I say it has taken upon itself to carry through. I have come from a portion of the world where we are fighting what we call Prussianism. I have come from a place where I have been in company with Englishmen, Irishmen, Scotsmen, men from all quarters of the British Empire, who are all combined in a common object, action, as well as desire, in combating the system known now in the stereotyped phrase as Prussianism. I have fought Prussianism face to face, but it is very hard indeed when one comes back to one's own country to find oneself stabbed with Prussianism in the back. Was there ever a more flagrant instance of patent Prussianism perpetrated by any combination of men calling themselves up-to-date and democratic rulers of a great democratic Empire than the spectacle of this coalition Government in its treatment of Ireland to-day? It has brought to the floor of this House a proposal to redistribute the Parliamentary constituencies in Ireland. In doing so it has torn up a scrap of paper, not once but thrice. It has, in the first place, treated the Speaker's Conference as a scrap of paper. That Conference was composed of representatives of all the principal parties in this country. It came to an agreement, and no unanimous agreement would ever have been come to if a compromise had not been agreed upon by all the members of the Conference that redistribution would not be entered upon nor introduced as regards Ireland. There is no getting away from that flagrant breach of faith.
In the second place, is there a Home Rule Act upon the Statute Book or is there not? We are getting a little tired in Ireland really of hearing a Minister from the Front Bench say one thing to-day in regard to the government of our country and the next day utterly contradict himself as though he had never meant what he originally said. That is the way that things have always been done by British Ministers where Ireland is concerned. If there is a Home Rule Act upon the Statute Book, if the King's signature is worth anything, if the Act passed through both Houses of Parliament is to be an Act of Parliament in the future, then how can you come down here and introduce a system of redistribution for Ireland which is at variance with the very words and Clauses of that Act which has been passed by a British majority through the House of Commons, and has received the signature of His Majesty the King? It is perfectly true that there has been a promise—we take the promise for what it is worth—of an amending Bill to the Home Rule Act; but if there is to be an amending Bill, is not that all the greater reason why you should not have now an amending Bill to the Home Rule Act, which is, in fact, what these redistribution proposals are?
I come now to the third obvious instance where the present British Government have acted the part of Germany in regard to Ireland and torn up once more treaties with Ireland just as Germany tore up treaties of Belgium. The third case is this. The British Government, your Government, not our Government, not the Irish Government, not at the instance of the Irish Parliamentary party, nor, indeed, do I think at the instance of hon. Members from Ulster, brought into existence a body known as the Irish Convention, a body consisting of all Irish parties, which, thank God, so far as I am aware, is already doing good work for Ireland, and better work still for this country and the British Empire. This Convention has been brought into existence by you, and for what purpose? To determine the future government of Ireland, and amongst the various questions which it must decide, and perhaps for all we know has already decided, is the question of the redistribution of Irish seats. Therefore, is it not the utmost folly, and does it not show the greatest contempt with which Ministers in this country treat the public opinion, not only of Ireland but of the United Kingdom, that they actually forestall the Report of the Convention which they themselves have brought into existence for the future government of a portion of the United Kingdom? I think nothing could have been more disgusting, and nothing has disgusted me so much, coming back as I do from scenes very different from these, than to see what has happened here this afternoon. An Amendment is proposed that Ireland should be left out of the proposal for recommitment so far as redistribution is concerned, and that Amendment was spoken to from all sides of the House. It received more support than opposition. Certainly the argument seemed to me to be entirely on one side. A leading member of the Opposition—the so-called Opposition; what should be the Opposition; what should be a responsible Opposition, and which would be of valuable assistance to us in winning this War if it were a proper Opposition—gets up and asks the Minister responsible for this Bill, and I presume from this proposed alteration, if he will allow British Members in the House of Commons to decide for themselves what they are going to do on this question, if he will allow all fair-minded people in this House, all fair-minded British and Irish representatives to declare on their honour and consciences whether the Speaker's Conference should be violated or whether it should not be.
What is the result? The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, who is not himself a member of the Cabinet, did not see fit to call in a member of the Cabinet on such an important question as this, but took it upon himself to get up and answer for this Coalition Government that this great Government which is conducting the War, which is supposed to have the confidence of the people of this country, is afraid to trust itself to the House of Commons, but puts on its party Whips and says, "We will not allow the ordinary Members of the House of Commons to exercise their judgments in a free and fair trial," on a matter on which they know for certain that if they had done so they would have been beaten. That is what has occurred. That does not strike me as a fair fight. It does not strike me as if there were two forces engaging one another as we have done at the front in a fair and square fight. The fact is that this Government which has always adopted, and probably always will adopt until its downfall, the camouflage of the prosecution of the War, must put on its party Whips to squeeze through a highly controversial measure such as this. Do they deny that it is controversial? Do they deny that there has been a protest against it, that it is exciting opposition in Ireland, that it is taking up the time of the House, that it has taken up hours, and will take up more hours, too? This Government is responsible for bringing in this controversial question, and in doing so is violating all the canons of justice, truth and righteousness for which it is supposed to be prosecuting this War. It is utterly revolting—I say it in no unmeasured terms—for a soldier, it would probably be revolting for a British soldier, it is certainly revolting for an Irish soldier, to come back to this House, from doing his little bit—whatever that may be—elsewhere, and to find such a system of pure Prussianism practised by the Government which is supposed to be doing all it can to destroy Prussianism elsewhere.
I have not intervened in the Debate so far. There are several Amendments standing in my name which will come up later on. They dealt with the county which I have the honour to represent. In my absence elsewhere three Gentlemen—I really do not know anything about them, and care less—who were appointed by this Government, have determined that one of the seats shall be taken away from the county of Tyrone. That means that instead of having four seats, as in the past, we shall only have three representatives in this House. It is not on questions of detail, however, that I am now speaking, it is the principle that I wish to deal with. We shall deal with questions of detail later, and we have plenty to say upon them, too. It is the principle I object to of bringing forth a controversial measure such as this, which is an absolute and gross disregard of all the high principles that we are supposed to be upholders of in this Assembly. I really do not know at all what the object has been in bringing this matter into the Bill. I do not know who is the inspirer; he has been kept in the dark; nobody has really taken responsibility for it. The Government do not. The Government said they wanted to wait until the Convention decided. Why do they not wait until the Convention decides? What does a few months matter? If the Convention is going on, as I for one do not believe it will, for the next year or so, that would make a difference; but if the Convention is going to conclude one way or the other within the space of a few months, what is the necessity for bringing forward such a question at this time, and raking up all those old bitternesses, bringing forth all those unfortunate and bitter memories and associations, ranging one set of Irishmen against another—men who, thank God, for the last few years have been in complete harmony, and have been working very well side by side? There is only one reason, so far as I can see, and that is that there is some sinister object at the bottom of it. Somebody wants to benefit by it, to gain a bit, and we have not yet been told by the Government who that person, or body of persons, may be. How is the Government going to benefit by it? Are they going to improve their position in this country by breaking faith once more with Irishmen? Is America now in a position that you can do what you like, when America may be able, very shortly, to snap her fingers at you? I think, taking all the facts into considerations, that this was a most inopportune time, to say the least, for the Government to bring forward this question; that it was a most improper thing for them to do; that it was a breach of good faith, not for the first time unfortunately, but only another breach of good faith with Ireland and the Irish people; that it was a flouting of Mr. Speaker and the Speaker's Conference; that it was a flouting of the Statute of the Realm which is now upon the Statute Book, that is the Home Rule Act; and that, above all, it was placing the possibility of the Convention coming to any satisfactory conclusion at a minimum, and, to say the least, that it was not encouraging to the people of Ireland to support you in this War, that it was not encouraging the people of America to support you in fighting for small nationalities, while it certainly will not help you or make this War conclude one day earlier; but, on the contrary, it probably will do considerably more harm to you than good. I cannot understand why you take this course. I suppose I express myself strongly on the matter, but I cannot help feeling strongly, and a want to fight it—I want to fight what I believe is as much Prussianism as that which we are fighting elsewhere I tell the Government I will fight it, as far as I can, with all my power and all my strength; and I tell them, furthermore, that I think it is the most shamefaced and disgraceful and meanest and shabbiest trick that has ever been perpetrated by any British Government on Ireland.
I only desire to, put one point to the House, and that is a point that affects not only my own position as a Scottish Member, but, I think, also the position of a great many Members who were returned to this House at the last election. In my own case the dominant issue at the last General Election was, so far at least as my Constituency was concerned, the granting of Home Rule to Ireland; and, whatever else I may claim, I may at least claim this with entire truth, that I had a clear mandate to support the Government in giving to the representatives of Ireland the right to decide over those points which are the subject of discussion to-night. I cannot see what difference the War made to that mandate. I am quite sure that I was not instructed in the case of war to deny self-government to Ireland, and, instead of giving self-government to Ireland, to transfer four or five Nationalist seats from the Nationalist party and present them to their political opponents. This point is important because, I remember, that some concern has been expressed, especially by the hon. Member for York and the hon. Member for St. Augustine's in the course of the discussion on this Bill, lest hon. Members in this House, who are guilty of the offence of differing from their own views, do not represent their constituents. I well remember an hon. Gentleman who was only returned to this House by what, I suppose, he considers the adequate majority of four votes, proposed to attempt to expel from this House those hon. Members who disagreed with him. As that Motion was both preposterous and hypocritical, I am surprised that the Government did not accept it. May I suggest to the Gentlemen who gave that extraordinary exhibition of zeal from the views of constituencies that this is now their great opportunity and perhaps last opportunity, to obey the constituencies to which in the past they have paid lip service.
Since the War began I have made the general rule to support the Government because my politics since the War began may be expressed in three words, "Win the War." Therefore, I have as a general rule, with hardly any exception, supported the Government, but I voted against the Government and with the Irish party to-day on this question of redistribution in Ireland. I did so for three reasons. Firstly, because I happened to be a Home Ruler, because I have been one since 1885, because I stood as a Home Ruler in 1886 for the constituency which I now have the honour to represent. Because, also, I know that there is a Home Rule Act on the Statute Book, and because I am not one of those traitors to whom the hon. Member for Lanark has alluded. But I voted against the Government also for another reason: because—it has been said over and over again, and with truth—they have treated the Speaker's Conference as a scrap of paper. I voted against the Government on this Motion for another reason: because I am bound to say—I cannot help saying it—that anything more stupid, more unnecessary, more vexatious, And more provocative than bringing in this measure at the present time—I refer to Irish redistribution—I have not seen during the twelve years I have been in this House.
The generalship of the Government, or the leaders of the Government was criticised by the hon. Member for West Belfast. I have heard that a good general very often makes what is called a movement to the rear for strategic reasons. I make an appeal to the Home Secretary that he should show his good generalship in this matter by dropping this wholly unnecessary proposal. Then we shall be able to get back to useful discussions upon matters which will not bring discredit upon this House. We shall be able, as we all want, to bring this Bill into law. We shall be able, in the words of the Prime Minister, so often quoted, to "get on with the War."
I want to ask a question about Trinity College, Dublin. Is it the fact that by the arrangement of the Government they have been excluded from the consideration of this House every question in regard to the constituency of Sir Edward Carson? Let me deal with it. At what stage was it open to us to consider the question of Trinity College? Was it open to us on the First Reading? No; because the Speaker's Conference had excluded Ireland. Was it open on the Second Reading? No; for the same reason. Was it open in Committee? No; for the same reason. When in Committee it was announced that a Boundary Commission would be appointed, wag it open to us to discuss Trinity College? No; because we had no idea whatever, when you appointed the Boundary Commission, that you would exclude the question of Trinity College. There fore, the whole question of Trinity College being, without our knowledge, excluded from the Boundary Commission, we have never had an opportunity of considering it. We now go into Committee on the question of the Boundary Commissioners' recommendations. Do they touch Trinity College? No, they do not. And to-morrow—if we go into Committee to-morrow, as to which I have no knowledge—can we discuss the question of the representation of Trinity College? No, because that question is not included in the Amendment dealing with Trinity College. Therefore, it is right that the House should understand that this anomaly as regards Trinity College has been deliberately, by a trick, excluded from the consideration of this House, and with it the whole question of Irish University representation, and we are told that they are the most learned people in the world, the most exalted people in the world, the most capped and gowned people in the world, but for some extraordinary reason this precious body of high-brows, of intellectuals—as I believe the English call them—is the one body that has screened itself from consideration and analysis in this House. That is done by His Majesty's Government. Every other constituency can be considered now—Ballyhooly, Ballydehob, Ballaghadereen, and all the other Ballys—but by some strange arrangement the one body that shrouds itself from analysis and examination is the constituency of Trinity College, Dublin, the most learned, the most enlightened, the most classical, the most glorious, the one spot on the earth that we have got occasion to be proud of—that is the one spot it has been decided the House of Commons must not consider. How has this come about? We can understand Monte Carlo. Sometimes you get on the red, sometimes you get on the black, but at some stage or another one colour or other will come round. In the whole of this arrangement of redistribution in Ireland—I do not say it is Sir Edward Carson—by some extraordinary arrangement the one constituency that we cannot consider to-morrow when we go into Committee is the question of this Trinity College. Accordingly, I seek for some enlightenment as to how this has come about. I see the Home Secretary looking at the clock. Really, he need not look at the clock—that will not inform him.
rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The House divided: Ayes, 144; Noes, 115.
Division No. 130.] AYES. [11.0 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Foster, Philip Staveley Neville, Reginald J. N. Allen, Major W. J. (Armagh, N.) Ganzoni, Francis John C. Nield, Herbert Baldwin Stanley Gibbs, Col. George Abraham O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid.) Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Gretton, John Parker, James (Halifax) Barnett, Captain R. W. Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich) Parkes, Sir Edward E. Barnston, Major Harry Hancock, John George Pennefather, De Fonblanque Barrie, H. T. Hanson, Charles Auguctin Perkins, Walter F. Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Peto, Basil Edward Beauchamp, Sir Edward Harris, Rt. Hon. F. L. (Worcester, E.) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Beck, Arthur Cecil Harris, Sir Henry P. (Paddington, S.) Pratt, J. W. Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Henry, Denis S. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George Boles Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue Hewart, Sir Gordon Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Hewins, William Albert Samuel Randles, Sir John S. Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid.) Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arfon) Boyton, James Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Brace, Rt. Hon. William Hope, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian) Rothschild, Major Lionel de Brassey, H. L. C. Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen) Bridgeman, William Clive Jessel, Colonel Sir H. M. Samuels, Arthur W. Brookes, Warwick Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Bull, Sir William James Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Sanders, Coy. Robert Arthur Burdett-Coutts, W. Kellaway, Frederick George Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. G. Butcher, John George Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) Carew, C. R. S. Knight, Captain E. A. Smith, Harold (Warrington) Carnegie, Lt.-Col. Douglas G. Larmor, Sir J. Spear, Sir John W. Cator, John Law. Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Stanton, Charles Butt Cautley, H. S. Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. Henry Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Levy, Sir Maurice Stewart, Gershom Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Ches., Knutsford) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Lindsay, William Arthur Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Thomas-Stanford, Charles Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Tickler, T. G. Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Tryon, Captain George Clement Coats, Sir Stewart A. (Wimbledon) McCalmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A. Turton, Edmund Russborough Colvin, Col. Richard Beale MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Mackinder, Halford J. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Coote, William Macleod, John Mickintosh Weston, J. W. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Macmaster, Donald Whiteley, Herbert J. Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Macpherson, James Ian Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) Craik, Sir Henry Magnus, Sir Philip Wilson-Fox, Henry Currie, George W. Marriott, John A. R. Winfrey, Sir Richard Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. Meux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth Wood, John (Stalybridge) Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Mitchell-Thomson, W. Worthington Evans, Sir L. Du Pre, Major W. Baring Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Yate, Colonel C. E. Fell, Arthur Morgan, George Hay Young, William (Perthshire, East) Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Mount, William Arthur TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord Fletcher, John Samuel Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Edmund Talbot and Capt. F. Guest.
NOES. Adamson, William Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Gilbert, J. D. Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling Cosgrave, James Glanville, Harold James Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Crumley, Patrick Graham, Edward John Anderson W. C. Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough) Arnold, Sydney Delvin, Joseph Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Dillon, John Hackett John Bentham, George Jackson Duffy, William Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Black, Sir Arthur W. Farrell, James Patrick Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Bliss, Joseph Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Hayden, John Patrick Bowden, Major G. R. Harland Ffrench, Peter Hayward, Evan Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W. Field, William Healy, Maurice (Cork) Brady, Patrick Joseph Finney, Samuel Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.) Brunner John F. L. Fitzgibbon, John Hearn, Michael Louis Bryce, J. Annan Fitzpatrick, John Lalor Helme, Sir Norval Watson Burns, Rt. Hon. John Flavin, Michael Joseph Hill, Sir James (Bradford, C.) Chancellor, Henry George France, Gerald Ashburner Hinds, John Clancy, John Joseph Galbraith, Samuel John, Edward Thomas Clough, William Gelder, Sir W. A. Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Jones, Rt. Hon. Lief (Notts, Rushcliffe) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Jowett, Frederick William O'Malley, William Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) Joyce, Michael O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Sutton, John E. Keating, Matthew O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Kennedy, Vincent Paul O'Shee, James John Tootill, Robert Kiley, James Daniel Outhawite, R. L. Trevelyan, Charles Philips King, Joseph Parrott, Sir James Edward Watson, John B. (Stockton) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Pringle, William M. R. White, Patrick (Meath, North) McGhee, Richard Raffan, Peter Wilson Whitehouse, John Howard MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Reddy, Michael Whitty, Patrick Joseph MacVeagh, Jeremiah Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) Maden, Sir John Henry Redmond, Capt. W. A. (Tyrone, E.) Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Manfield, Harry Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) Marshall, Arthur Harold Robinson, Sidney Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Mason, David M. (Coventry) Rowlands, James Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitram, N.) Rowntree Arnold Wright, Henry Fitzherbert Molloy, Michael Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dewsbury) Yeo, Alfred William Morrell, Philip Scanlan, Thomas Muldoon, John Seoly, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Nolan, Joseph Sheehy, David Mooney and Mr. Boland. Nugent, J. D. (College Green)
Question put accordingly, "That the Bill be recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendments to Clause 8 standing in the name of Secretary Sir George Cave, the Amendment to Clause 18 standing in the name of
Mr. Herbert Samuel, and the New Clause and Schedule standing in the name of Secretary Sir George Cave as Amendments to be moved on recommittal."
The House divided: Ayes, 178; Noes, 61.
Division No. 131.] AYES. [11.7 p.m. Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Currie, George W. Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynto Dalrymple, Hon. H. H. McCalmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A. Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby N. MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Allen, Major W. J. (Armagh, N.) Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Mackinder, Halford J. Baldwin, Stanley Du Pre, Major W. Baring Macleod, John Maccintosh Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- Edge, Captain William Macmaster, Donald Barlow Montague (Salford, South) Fell, Arthur McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Barnett, Captain R. W. Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Macpherson, James Ian Barnston, Major Harry Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Maden, Sir John Henry Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Magnus, Sir Philip Barrie, H. T. Fletcher, John Samuel Manfield, Harry Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.) Foster, Philip Staveley Marriott, J. A. R. Beauchamp, Sir Edward France, Gerald Ashburner Mason, David M. (Coventry) Beck, Arthur Cecil Ganzoni, Francis John C. Meux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Gelder, Sir William Alfred Mitchell-Thomson, W. Bentham, George Jackson Gibbs, Col. George Abraham Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Black, Sir Arthur W. Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough) Morgan, George Hay Bliss, Joseph Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness) Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue Gretton, Colonel John Mount, William Arthur Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Bowden, Major G. R. Harland Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich) Neville, Reginald J. N. Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Hanson, Charles Augustin Nield, Herbert Boyton, James Harmsworth, H. L. (Caithness-shire) O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid) Brace, Rt. Hon. William Harris, Sir Henry P. (Paddington, S.) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Helme, Sir Norval Watson Parker, James (Halifax) Bridgeman, William Clive Henry, Denis S. Parkes, Sir Edward E. Brookes, Warwick Hewart, Sir Gordon Peel, Major Hon, G. (Spalding) Bull, Sir William James Hewins, William Albert Samuel Pennefather, De Fonblanque Burdett-Coutts, William Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Perkins, Walter Frank Butcher, John George Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Peto, Basil Edward Carew C. R. S Hope, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian) Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray Carnegie, Lieut.-Colonel D. G. Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Pratt, J. W. Cator, John Jackson, Lt.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George Cautley, Henry Strother Jessel, Col. Sir Herbert M. Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George Jones, J, Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich) Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Randles, Sir John S. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kellaway, Frederick George Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) King, Joseph Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Collins, Sir W. (Derby) Larmor, Sir J. Robertson, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Tyneside) Colvin, Colonel Richard Beale Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Rothschild, Major Lionel de Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Rowlands, James Coote, William Levy, Sir Maurice Rowntree, Arnold Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dewsbury) Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives) Lindsay, William Arthur Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen) Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Samuels, Arthur W. Craik, Sir Henry Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Thomas-Stanford, Charles Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur Tickler, T. G. Wilson-Fox, Henry (Tamworth) Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) Toulmin, Sir George Winfrey, Sir Rihard Sharman-Crawford, Colonel R. G. Tryon, Captain George Clement Wood, John (Stalybridge) Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton) Turton, Edmund Russborough Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) Smith, Harold (Warrington) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Worthington Evans, Major Sir L. Spear, Sir John Ward Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Yate, Colonel Charles Edward Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. Henry Weston, John W. Young, William (Perthshire, East) Stewart, Gershom Whiteley, Herbert James Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Ches. Kn'ford) Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Edmund Talbot and Captain Guest. Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
NOES. Baker Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Hancock, John George Nugent, J. D. (College Green) Brady, Patrick Joseph Hayden, John Patrick O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Brunner, John F. L. Hayward, Evan O'Malley, William Bryce, John Annan Healy, Maurice (Cork) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Clancy, John Joseph Hearn, Michael Louis O'Shee, James John Cosgrave, James Hinds, John Pringle, William M. R. Crumley, Patrick John, Edward Thomas Reddy, Michael Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Devlin, Joseph Jowett, Frederick William Redmond, Capt. W. A. (Tyrone, E.) Dillon, John Joyce, Michael Robinson, Sidney Duffy, William J. Keating, Matthew Scanlan, Thomas Farrell, James Patrick Kennedy, Vincent Paul Sheehy, David Ffrench, Peter Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Field, William McGhee, Richard Trevelyan, Charles Philips Fitzgibbon, John MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) White, Patrick (Meath, North) Fitzpatrick, John Lalor MacVeagh, Jeremiah Whitehouse, John Howard Flavin, Michael Joseph Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Whitty, Patrick Joseph Glanville, Harold James Molloy, Michael Graham, Edward John Muldoon, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES. Mr. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Nolan, Joseph Mooney and Mr. Boland. Hackett, John
Bill accordingly considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again"—[ Mr. John Redmond ]—put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Seventeen minutes after Eleven o'clock.