I am glad to state that the provisional understanding which was come to at a late hour last night can be carried out. As what was said then has not been reported, I think it better to repeat it. I am sorry it was only drafted a few minutes ago, so that I have not been able to submit it to the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Redmond), but I am convinced that it represents the understanding arrived at.

A conference to be set up to consider the redistribution of seats in Ireland, it being understood that all parts of the country shall have equitable representation, having regard to population. The conference to consist of two members to be nominated by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite on the one hand and two members to be nominated by my hon. Friend (Sir J. Lonsdale), together with Mr. Speaker, who is to preside and have a casting vote. The decision of the conference to be embodied in a new Bill, This is to pass as an agreed Bill and to be submitted for the Royal Assent at the same time as the Franchise Bill. On the above terms the Schedule dealing with redistribution in the present Bill will be withdrawn.

I may add that Mr. Speaker has kindly consented to preside.

Does that provide for the crucial point of university representation? The memorandum only says, "On the basis of population."

May I ask, agreeing as I do with the hon. Member as to the importance of university representation, that care will be taken not only to preserve the representation of the great historic university of Dublin, but also to give representation to the newer seats of learning, the University of Belfast and the National University of Ireland?

Of course, what I have read only means that population is to be the basis. Questions such as this will be left, as I understand, to the consideration of the conference. I may add that it will throw a very great responsibility upon Mr. Speaker as, if the representatives do not agree, he will have to take the responsibility of deciding, but I am sure the House of Commons, at all events, would welcome that method.

The memorandum uses the expression "casting vote."

All that is meant is that if the two representatives on the one side and the two on the other disagree the decision will rest with Mr. Speaker.

Are we to understand that any arrangement which is made regarding further university representation in Ireland will involve an increased representation of Ireland in this House?

No, that is not intended.

We are quite represented enough, God knows.

I desire to say, on behalf of the Irish Unionist party, that whilst we do not wish to embarrass the Government we strongly resent the action which it has thought necessary to take in regard to redistribution in Ireland. However, I only rise for the purpose of expressing my agreement and concurrence with what was said by my hon. Friend (Mr. Barrie) in my absence last night, when he agreed to the proposed conference, but we must have it clearly understood from the Leader of the House that the Redistribution Bill for Ireland will be presented for Royal Assent concurrently with the Franchise Bill.

I beg to withdraw the proposed new Clause.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill reported.

As amended on recommittal, considered.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

Before we part with the Bill I should like to congratulate the Home Secretary on its passing through the House. I believe everyone who has attended the Debate regularly will concur with me in saying that its arrival at this stage is almost entirely due to the way in which the Home Secretary has conducted it through the House. I have heard very many Members express the opinion that there is not another man in the House who could have done it. I do not know whether others Members who have taken part in the discussions on the Bill have come away from them with the same feeling that I have—that it is extraordinary how far the Home Secretary has managed to satisfy us. I do not know whether I have been unusually lucky, but certainly on the two points to which I called attention on the Second Reading, namely, the representation of agricultural interests, and better facilities for the military vote, I obtained very nearly all I asked for, and not only that, but a good deal more than I expected. I can only hope that all Members who have taken part in the Debate can have the same feeling in regard to the points that they have put forward. Once more I wish to congratulate the Home Secretary, and to say that I hope it will turn out, as I am sure he hopes it will turn out, too; that the Bill will not do nearly so much harm as I thought it was going to do.

I am sure that the whole House desires to join in the congratulations expressed by the hon. Member opposite to the Home Secretary, the Minister in charge of this Bill, and to join not only in the congratulations, but also in thanks to him, for having rendered a great service to the whole House. The right hon. Gentleman has shown from the beginning a mixture of suavity and firmness which has enabled this Bill, that might have been the cause of much trouble and dissension, to pass through the House with almost complete agreement. He certainly has shown that he has not only the gentleness of the dove, but that he also possesses, in due measure, the wisdom of the serpent, which in matters of this sort is not unnecessary. He has been assisted throughout by the valuable aid of the President of the Local Government Board, whose long knowledge of electoral matters, coupled with his present connection with that great Department, has enabled him to render most useful service to the House. Many Members in different quarters of the House have assisted in the long discussions on this Bill. Perhaps hon. Members will allow me to mention my right hon. Friend the Member for North St. Pancras (Mr. Dickinson), who has brought to our assistance in connection with these matters his very great knowledge and learning, accumulated during many years, and, also, the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. Maurice Healy), whose intimate knowledge of the minute details of franchise and registration law has been of invaluable assistance to all Members who have been interested in the Bill. But not least perhaps, indeed, most, the congratulations of this House are due to you, Mr. Speaker, for the manner in which you conducted the preliminary arrangements and negotiations, which have alone made this great Statute possible. You are well aware, Sir, that you have long held not only the deep respect of this House, but its warm affection, and now, in this matter, you have a fresh claim on its heartfelt gratitude. I think it is a tribute to the recommendations of your Conference that in whatever troubles the House found itself involved during the conduct of this Bill, they have almost invariably come from the departure in one way or another, at the request of one section of the House or another, from the recommendations of that Conference. When the Bill was introduced there were in it things that were disliked by one party in the House or by another, and when the Bill leaves this Chamber for another place, there are still things in it which are much disliked by various sections. Those with whom I am particularly associated feel with displeasure that the effect of the Bill will be to enlarge greatly the number of plural voters beyond the number, as we think, intended by the recommendations of the Speaker's Conference. On the other hand, those who hold the opposite view, greatly disapprove the method of the alternative vote to decide the elections in single- member constituencies where more than two candidates present themselves. It is some consolation for each of us to feel that if we have our own grievances other people have their grievances too.

Let me say this in conclusion. There are some who say that Parliament ought not, in the midst of a great war, to have embarked upon long discussions on electoral and registration reform and analogous subjects. They feel in the midst of a great war, in which the whole future of mankind is at stake, some impatience that the British Parliament should quietly sit down to discuss the details of subjects such as this. Although the feeling undoubtedly is a natural one, yet I am profoundly convinced that it is a mistaken one. The time of war imposes, indeed, a great strain upon the Executive, but it imposes a much less strain upon the Legislature, and I venture to submit that the Legislature is well advised in occupying its time during this great War—before peace comes, and before the period comes when the questions of reconstruction will impose a fresh and added strain on its time and attention—in clearing away matters which might be controversial, but which must, in the interests of the State, some day be dealt with. This further consideration also. After all, we shall undoubtedly have to pass through times of stress and of difficulty, and there may be a revolutionary feeling in the air; but the great safeguard against revolution always has been, and is now, wise constitutional reform, and it is only when the masses of our people see that our political institutions are broad-based and are a real expression of the popular will, and that there is full and free access to Parliament for all sections and classes of the community, that the spirit of revolution can be exorcised. Therefore, I submit that we would best strengthen that wise conservatism, which must be an element in every well-governed State, if, so far as we can, even in time of war, and before the days of domestic stress come, we perfect our constitutional and electoral system. I think the House has been well advised, in spite of the grave personal anxieties and sorrows that press upon so many of us, in spite of the necessary preoccupation of our minds in the great problems and fortunes of the War, to have devoted itself to these comparatively humdrum and yet profoundly important matters, and to have displayed that great quality, mens aequa in arduis, even in the shock of war, in seeking to perfect our domestic constitution. The House has now enacted a vast, comprehensive, and, I believe, most beneficent Bill. Its future course will be watched with some anxiety, and we all of us, without distinction of party, desire to tender our heartiest congratulations to the Government on this great achievement, particularly to the Home Secretary and to the President of the Local Government Board, and to you, Mr. Speaker, for the invaluable part you have played in the progress of this measure.

I do not rise to take part in the Debate, but I should like to say that, in the main, I am in agreement with what has just been said by my right hon. Friend (Mr. H. Samuel). I rise to set a very bad precedent, and that is for one member of the Government to praise his colleagues. It is, however, so strong a desire on my part to do it that I cannot refrain from saying how heartily I agree with what has been said about the achievement of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. I think, as a matter of fact, that his Parliamentary gifts, are of the very first order, and they are all the more remarkable considering at what late a stage in life he began his apprenticeship in this House. His success, in my opinion, for what it is worth, is due, in the main, to this, that he is a fair-minded man, and that is always appreciated by the House of Commons. I did, however, hear a remark on another occasion from the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. T. M. Healy), which filled me with amazement. He stated that he saw my right hon. Friend on one occasion violent.

The right hon. Gentleman does me an injustice. It was not I who said it.

I think so.

No.

Well, somebody said it. That is the one thing that is lacking in my right hon. Friend. I should have been very glad to have been present when that exhibition was given. I should like to say one word more. I think this is a great achievement on the part of the House of Commons. If we could throw our minds back to the sort of attitude with which such a Bill would have been regarded before the War, we should have some idea of the length to which, in spite of what is said to the contrary, party feeling has been silenced by the great struggle in which we are engaged. I desire, therefore, to say that in my view the fact that this Bill has reached this, stage reflects the greatest credit not only on you, Mr. Speaker, and on my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board, but not less on the House of Commons.

I desire to associate my party with what has been said about the spirit in which the Home Secretary has conducted the proceedings on this Bill. As has already been said, none of the parties have got all they wonted in this Bill. The Labour party is no exception to that. There are things which are not in the Bill and which we would have liked to have seen in it. Still, the spirit of compromise has been at work, and every one of the parties has had to give and take. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, it must be a great pleasure to you to see this Bill finished as far as this House is concerned. You have had a great hand in the work, and you deserve the congratulations of the House on the part you have played. I think, notwithstanding that we are engaged in a great war, the House in carrying this measure has done great service to the country. Constitutional reform as a safety valve is one of the greatest assets that any country could possess, and I think you will find that the measure we are about to pass will be for the good of the country in the coming days.

Perhaps I may be allowed to correct the hon. Member opposite when he said that no party had got all it wanted. I have got all I wanted. Perhaps I might, in joining in the congratulations that have been offered to the Home Secretary, say to you Mr. Speaker in congratulating you also, that, in the new task that you have to discharge, if there should be any difficulty about a constituency being given to the Nationalists or to the Conservatives, if you would call it, in giving it to the Conservatives, the Wedding Present Division or the Wedding Ring Division as a mark of our friendship towards our Friends in Ulster, we should not mind. I personally should not mind that they should get from us the gift of a feat—aye, even of more seats than they deserve!—as part of an arrangement which will bring together for the first time in our history the long divided forces of Protestant and Catholic in our unfortunate country.

I do not rise for the purpose of congratulating anybody, but to say that I have not got all, or anything dike all, that I wanted.

I did not expect that I should be called upon to speak in this Debate, but I should be ungrateful if I did not rise to say, in a very few words, how much I appreciate what has been said by my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Sanders) and those who followed him. They have spoken in too friendly terms of my own work, but I am sure they will expect me to say what they all feel, how much I and the Government as a whole owe to those of my colleagues who have supported me throughout the Debates, and especially to my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board, whose experience and judgment and good counsel have been of the greatest and most constant service both to myself and to the House; and also to the Secretary for Scotland and the Chief Secretary for Ireland, who dealt with all matters relating respectively to Scotland and to Ireland. I have also had the great benefit of the not unfriendly criticism and very often the friendly support of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) and those members of his party who have taken special interest in this Bill. And we have had what is even more valuable—namely, the collaboration in the Bill of the House as a whole, and the fact that we had a very good Bill to deal with. It has been in some respects a difficult Bill. We have had some fences to clear from time to time, and the stiffest of all has been cleared at the last moment; but we are over them now, and, I hope, near the goal. I do not doubt that the Bill will become law very nearly in the shape in which it now stands. I hope that its provisions will last for many years to come, and I trust and believe that the work which we have done in our discussions on this Bill will inure to the lasting benefit of the country.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

I have no intention whatever of offering any opposition to this Bill, or of proposing any amendment to its terms; but I should like to know from those in charge of it whether there is any good reason why its terms should not be extended to rural as well as urban districts. It may be said that the children of people who occupy rural localities are not necessitous, and do not need to be fed on their arrival at school. I allow that the Bill is much more required for the urban than for the rural districts. At the same time, I desire to point out that there are many small towns which are not governed by urban local authorities in which distress may be found quite as urgently needing assistance or relief as may be found in the larger towns that are governed by urban local authorities. I therefore think that the Chief Secretary, who is in charge of the Bill, may think it well to see, before the Bill passes into law, that some extension of its provisions may be made so as to bring within its scope the cases that I point out. I readily allow that the children of farmers and of comfortable agricultural labourers in this now happy country are sent to school under very good and comfortable conditions. That does not apply to the towns which I have in my mind. Before, therefore, the Bill passes from the purview of the House I desire to know whether there is any good reason why there should not be an extension in the direction I have pointed out?

1.0 P.M.

So far as I know no statement has been made in regard to this Clause, and as to why there is the great difference in dealing with this matter in the Provision of Meals (Ireland) Bill to that accorded, in the two Acts of Parliament passed during the War as regards the feeding of school children in England. The difference in this present Bill is that up to half of the cost to the local authority who provides these meals for the children is to be defrayed out of money provided by Parliament. There is a widespread impression outside that, at any rate during the War, Ireland has not even suffered financially, and that the lack of food has not been to the same extent as in this country. If that be so, I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman should give us some explanation as to this proposal. The Committee, I believe, certainly wish to do in all matters relating both to this country and to the sister island what is just, but we should like to know why this suggestion is just and equitable, and why the national funds should provide in the case of Ireland half the cost of this provision of meals, whereas in the Act of Parliament passed as lately as 1914, altering materially the Act of 1906, there is no such provision, although in other respects It is on the lines of this Bill.

The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down shares the somewhat not unnatural misapprehension of others, and I am glad that I have the opportunity of removing it. The hon. Member's complaint runs in a line with some of the statements which have been brought to my notice from the other side of the Irish Sea. The effect of this Bill is to put the Irish urban districts on the same footing as the English urban districts. The position now, and for a considerable period in this country, is that there has been granted out of State funds by the provisions of the Appropriation Act part of the expenditure of the local authorities for the purpose of feeding the kind of necessitous school children who are dealt with by this Bill. There has not been the same demand in Ireland for that kind of assistance until more recently. That brings another aspect of the matter, to which my hon. Friend refers, to my mind. During the last year there was, especially in the city of Dublin, extreme distress amongst the poorer classes of the population. I have here some words addressed to me by a public servant in whom I have very great confidence, and who has been within the last few days the subject of discussion here—I refer to Sir Henry Robinson He wrote to me on this subject after I had discussed the matter with him. He says: the poorest classes of the population will feel that this Bill is an absolute necessity. I would refer to the charitable agencies which are working from the Mansion House, Dublin—charitable agencies which are worked on behalf of various classes, aid societies, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, which is hour by hour working in the relief of distress. The knowledge I have of their work shows me that there is a necessity for enlarging the powers of the corporation. When that situation arose, and when there was no certainty of being able to call upon adventitious sources of aid, which we were able by various means to call upon last winter, the question arose whether Ireland was being treated on the same footing as England, and it was represented that by Votes passed for three years the English local authorities had received assistance which had not been extended to Ireland. That being so, and in view of the necessity, it was thought desirable that the subject should be considered, I brought it to the attention of my Department, and I got the ready assent of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to redress this inequality.

The purpose of the Bill is to redress the inequality. The effect of it is this: First of all, it removes the limitation on the power of the urban authorities in Ireland to rate themselves for this necessary purpose. That puts the urban authorities in Ireland on the same footing as the urban authorities in England, and nobody, I am sure, will cavil at that; in fact, I know my hon. Friend does not raise this matter in any contentious spirit, but wants this matter understood, as we all do. The English urban authorities, when they charge themselves, are able to come upon the Exchequer for half of their expenditure. This Bill will enable the Irish local authorities to do what the English local authorities do. With that explanation I am sure I shall remove any misapprehension. With regard to the matter raised by the hon. Member for Kildare (Mr. J. O'Connor), as to the advisability of extending the operation of this Bill, there is an old adage which advises you to make haste at a reasonable speed. I have had this whole subject under my attention for many months; in fact, the greater part of the period during which I have been in this office. I am satisfied as to the urgency of the situation in the city of Dublin, and in one or two other urban districts. I do not think it is desirable to resort to agencies of this kind merely for the sake of setting them up. When you see a public need, it seems to me in the highest degree proper that you should deal with it promptly, but if you do not meet with the public demand, is it not better on the whole to deal by common consent with the public need which is manifested, and to reserve further action until the demand arises? I hope my hon. Friend will see there is no desire at all to discriminate unfavourably between one part of the population and the other, but I am able to recommend this Bill urgently to the House in the form in which it stands. I could not express the same view of it if it were in any enlarged form, and I hope with this explanation we may proceed with the Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 2 ( Short Title, Citation, and Construction ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

Before the final passage of this Bill, perhaps I may be allowed to thank the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for his very successful effort in getting this Bill to the stage which it has reached to-day, and we may hope it may become law before the Christmas holidays. I have taken a small part in the negotiations which have led to the introduction of this Bill, and I am very glad of the opportunity of acknowledging to-day, in the fullest manner, the sympathy which the right hon. Gentleman exhibited regarding this problem in Dublin from the very first moment it was brought to his notice, and I think justice, as well as a sense of gratitude, likewise compel me to recognise the great assistance which we have received in the matter—because, as I say, there have been negotiations which have led to this happy result—from the Vice-President of the Irish Local Government Board. I waited on Sir Henry Robinson, some few weeks ago in Dublin, with a very representative clergyman, who was interested in this matter of providing meals for school children, and he at once did everything in his power to induce the Government to adopt this measure, and I think he is entitled, on grounds of justice as well as gratitude, to that recognition.

Speaking for myself—and I am sure I am voicing the feelings of my friends on these benches—I am very glad indeed that my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Peto) has raised the question today of a comparison between England and Ireland in this matter, because in doing so he has given the Chief Secretary an opportunity of explaining to the House how the matter stands. I am really very glad that there is every sign now that before the Christmas season comes we will have statutory authority to deal with this very pressing problem in the city of Dublin and elsewhere, because, as has been pointed out, it confers the powers on urban authorities, which, no doubt, they had before, but, owing to the limit of rate, which was first a ½d., and subsequently made Id. by the Act of 1916, the money was not sufficient to enable them to carry out the scheme in the Act, By the elimination of the 1d. rate, and leaving the rate unlimited, urban authorities, which hitherto have been unable to avail themselves of the provisions of the former Act, will be enabled to do it in cases, as the Chief Secretary has pointed out, where there is a need for it.

It may appear ungenerous now to press the right hon. Gentleman further, but I would hope that in another place, if he finds it possible, he would insert some provision enabling adequate inspection to be made to secure that improper use is not made of the provisions of this Bill.

Of course, the other Act contains a Clause whereby, in the case of parents who can feed their children, civil process may follow, but I do not know that that has been very frequently done in Ireland, and it seems to me, having given a good deal of attention to this matter, that if arrangements were made whereby, say, the services of a local government inspector could be made use of, it could be done very economically and simply by visiting the homes. This suggestion has been made to me by the clergyman, to whom I have already referred, and who is intimately acquainted with the subject. If an inspection could be made of the homes in cases where there is any reason of doubt as to the competency of the parents to provide for their children, I think it would ensure that this Act is not abused. I really rose only for the purpose of thanking, very genuinely and very sincerely, the Chief Secretary for what he has done.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

The remaining Order was read, and postponed.

(Sir D. Maclean) adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3.

Adjourned at Fifteen minutes after One o'clock.