House of Commons
Monday, December 10, 1917
Private Business
South Staffordshire Mond Gas (Power and Heating) (No. 2) Bill [ Lords ],
Read the third time, and passed, without amendment.
New Writ
For the Borough of Southampton, in the room of Lieutenant Commander William Dudley Ward, Vice-Chamberlain of His Majesty's Household.—[ Captain Guest .]
Navy and Army Services, Warlike Operations, and Other Expenditure Arising Out of the War, 1917 (Supplementary Vote of Credit)
Supplementary Estimate presented of the Sum required to be voted during the year ended 31st March, 1918, for general Navy and Army Services, Warlike Operations, and other Expenditure arising out of the War [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 165.]
Shops Act, 1912
Copies presented of Orders made by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—
County of Cumberland (urban district of Egremont) (three)
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table
Copies presented of Orders made by the Councils of the undermentioned local authorities, and confirmed, with amendment, by the Secretary of State for the Home Department:—
County of Essex (parish of Tillingham);
Boroughs of Rotherham and Barnstaple
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Closing Order made under the Act by the Council of the undermentioned local authority, and confirmed by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland:—
Urban district of Banbridge
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Ministry of Food
Copy presented of Sugar (Brewers' Restriction) Order, 1917, Potatoes Order (No. 2), 1917, Food Control Committees (Scotland) Powers Order, 1917, Potatoes Order, 1917, General Licence, and Oats Products (Postponement of Date) Order, 1917, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Trading With the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916
Copy presented of Supplementary List of Persons, Firms and Companies as to whom Orders have been made under Section 1 (i) of the Trading with the Enemy (Amendment) Act, 1916 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Papers laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—
1. Supreme Court (Rules),—Copy of Rules of the Supreme Court, dated 4th December, 1917 [by Act];
2. Lunacy,—Copy of Return of the Lord Chancellor of the number of Visits made, the number of Patients seen, and the number of Miles travelled by the Visitors of Lunatics, between 1st April, 1917, and 30th September, 1917 [by Act].
Oral Answers to Questions
War
Food Supplies
Bacon
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware of complaints made by traders about the time occupied in the transportation of bacon from the port of arrival to its destination, the time on the railway usually taking about a week, with the result that the goods arrive in a very bad condition and large quantities have to be destroyed; and whether something will be done in the interests of food economy to improve this state of things?
I have received no recent complaint of delay in the transport of bacon by railway, but if the hon. Gentleman has any serious case of the kind in mind, I will look into it if he will let me have the necessary particulars.
Meat Storage (Plymouth)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Shipping whether the cargo of meat which was lost recently by the sinking of a steamer after leaving Plymouth could lave been discharged at that port; whether accommodation exists at Plymouth for the storage of meat; and, if so, whether such accommodation could be materially increased?
The meat cargo of the steamer in question could have been discharged at Plymouth, but the results would have been very unsatisfactory, as is shown by the experience of previous cases. There is a small amount of cold storage accommodation at the port. The whole question of the cold storage accommodation at this and other places is being dealt with by the Food Controller, and I understand that over 9,000,000 cubic feet of additional cold storage space are under construction, or in contemplation.
Questions
Restricted Exports
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is any restriction against the export of matches, paper, and whisky, and, if so, what; and whether, in view of the shortage of these articles, he will consider the desirability of prohibiting their export altogether?
The export of matches to all destinations has been suspended, and an Order of Council will shortly be issued regularising this prohibition. Whisky is at present only prohibited to be exported to neutral European countries, but I will consult the Food Con- troller as to whether he thinks it advisable that the scope of this prohibition should be extended. As regards paper, there are in force prohibitions affecting a few special descriptions, but the export of paper in general has not hitherto been prohibited. The exports are very much smaller than a year ago. I am considering in consultation with the Chairman of the Paper Commission, whether the circumstances are such as to make a prohibition of export desirable in this case.
Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to permit those who want a little whisky to get some?
Werths and Company
asked the President of the Board of Trade upon what information the Board decided that Messrs. Werths Brothers should be exempted from internment as being experts in the diamond-die industry; what steps they took to ascertain whether there was any real need for their continuance in business; by whose authority it is that the firm states on its letter paper that they are under the special licence of His Majesty's Government; and whether he is now prepared to give directions for the winding-up of this firm?
An order to wind up the business of Werths and Company was made on the 15th February last. The Controller who was appointed to conduct the winding up was authorised to retain Mr. Werths' services for the purpose of completing certain orders for diamond dies which were under execution in regard to which considerable expert knowledge was necessary. The business was eventually sold by the Controller, and there is no doubt that the purchaser bought the business with the intention of retaining the services of Mr. Werths, as without his expert knowledge and relations with the French manufacturers of the dies it was practically of no value. No undertaking was, however, given by the Controller, or by the Board of Trade in regard to the retention of Mr. Werths' services, nor have the Board decided that he should be exempted from internment, as that question is not within their jurisdiction. I have no information in regard to the firm having stated on its letter paper that they are now under the special licence of His Majesty's Government, but I will make inquiry and communicate the result to the hon. Member.
British Trade (Overseas Markets)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been directed to addresses to members of the Brass Masters' Association and manufacturing jewellers delivered in Birmingham by Mr. Paish; whether he was authorised to suggest to them that instead of their own representatives abroad they should allow the collection of orders in South America to be undertaken by Government officials, who would carry their samples as commercial travellers; whether such officials have been appointed; if so, how many of them and to what countries have the operations been extended up to the present time; what expenses have been incurred in connection with this matter; whether any Estimate will be laid before Parliament, or other means provided for obtaining its sanction for this new development of Departmental activity; and whether he will make a general statement with regard to this matter?
I am sending my right hon. Friend a copy of the Report recently presented to Parliament of the proceedings of the Board of Trade Advisory Committee on Commercial Intelligence, on page 7 of which he will find a full account of the recommendations of that Committee with regard to the conduct of commercial investigations respecting the prospects of development of certain British trades in particular overseas markets by officers jointly selected, and paid by the Department of Commercial Intelligence and the representative trade associations. No suggestion has been made either by the Committee or by any representative of the Department that orders should be collected on behalf of the firms concerned. Mr. Paish is secretary of the Sub-Committee appointed by the late Advisory Committee on Commercial intelligence to deal with this matter, and he has in that capacity communicated with various associations either by letter or by personal interview. I am glad to say that arrangements on the lines recommended by the Committee have been made with the associations representing the jewellery and allied trades for a joint mission to South America, and I hope that further arrangements on similar lines for the benefit of British trade will be found possible. No expenditure has so far been incurred, but the Treasury have sanctioned an expenditure not exceeding £5,000 for the purpose of these investigations, and this will be open to criticism in the usual manner on the Estimates of the Board of Trade.
I understand that none of these travellers have yet been dispatched. Will my hon. Friend say that before this step is taken Parliament will have an opportunity of discussing it?
No; I can not assent to the description of these gentlemen as travellers. It is not at all an accurate description. The work is much more analogous to that of encouraging the exhibition of goods abroad, a principle which has, I understand, received quite general approval.
Will they ask for orders?
They are not authorised to apply for orders.
Are there on the Advisory Committee any representatives of the Commercial Travellers' Association in this country?
Not that I am aware of. It was a Sub-Committee of the larger Advisory Committee on Commercial Intelligence, of which I believe the personnel is published.
Will the Report of these gentlemen, with their recommendations, be submitted to the House?
The Report has already been published. I think that it is No. 8815, this year. Therefore it is open to any Member of this House to get it for the sum of 2d. or to have it delivered to him.
Before the Government adopt the policy embodied in the recommendations of the Committee, will the House have an opportunity of considering that policy?
I shall have to consult the Leader of the House, but I think that the principle has already been approved authoritatively. It is analogous to exhibitions in foreign countries. I do not think that there is any need for discussion of that in detail in this House.
Was not this Mr. Paish down in Birmingham recommending the brass trade to form a syndicate for a cartel?
No; I think that he was making a report simply on the question of an association for the purposes of the export trade. It was in response to an invitation that he went down in order to talk about the matter to them.
English and Continental Casing Company, Limited
asked whether all the German-held shares in the English and Continental Casing Company Limited, have been sold; and, if so, to whom and why it is necessary in that case to continue two German directors?
All the shares held by German subjects in the English and Continental Casing Company. Limited, have been sold, and I am sending my hon. Friend a list of the purchasers. Of the present directors of the company one is a naturalised British subject of German origin, and the remaining four are British-born subjects.
All-British Oil Company
asked whether the Government has under consideration the desirability of forming an all-British oil company, free from all foreign interest and foreign control, for dealing with the development of oilfields outside the British Isles and particularly in British colonies, dependencies, and Allied countries?
The whole question is under careful consideration.
Has the right hon. Gentleman read the able and convincing speech of the chairman of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, in which there is a great deal of public money invested, and will he give the matter careful consideration?
I have read the speech to which the hon. Gentleman refers. We are giving careful consideration to this matter. I do not think it advisable to go into it at present.
Are you taking any steps to secure petroleum in this country?
That is a matter which is being dealt with by the Colonial Secretary.
Is it not being held up?
Bathing Caps (Export)
asked whether, considering that rubber bathing caps are particularly perishable and most unlikely to be stocked now so far in advance of next year's summer trade, and in view of the fact that these caps could possibly be used to make gas masks or for other warlike purposes, why licences were granted during the last three months for the export of 1,912 of these caps to Switzerland; and whether their export to a country marching with Germany will in future be prohibited?
The amount of rubber goods exportable to Switzerland is determined by the Allied International Commission in Paris. The amount of the goods in question that have been so far dispatched is considerably less than that which has been agreed upon, and they will be perfectly serviceable for next season's use. In the present abnormal condition of trade it is not always possible to secure manufacturing or transit facilities for the season most convenient to purchasers. His Majesty's Government have no reason to believe that the Société Suisse de Surveillance have violated their agreement to prevent the re-export of these goods to enemy countries.
Does the Noble Lord think that Swiss traders are going to the expense of importing these rubber caps by parcel post for the sake of stocking them for next year's trading season?
There is great difficulty in obtaining them, and many of these caps were ordered months ago.
Russia
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether in view of Sir George Buchanan's statement that the British Government cannot recognise any Russian Government without first assuring themselves of that Government having the sanction and approval of the Russian people, it is the policy of this country to recognise no government in Russia until the constituent assembly now being elected is in a position to support the ruling authorities?
In dealing with circumstances which change rapidly from day to day nothing is gained by laying down hard and fast rules for dealing with eventualities which have not yet occurred.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether communications to Sir George Buchanan from M. Trotsky are treated as non-official; (2) whether the Government recognises that persons accredited to this country as ambassadors or ministers plenipotentiary are entilted to immunity from arrest and imprisonment; and (3) whether Russia is still in alliance with this country for the purposes of the War; and, if not, whether Russia is now regarded as a neutral or belligerent Power?
With respect to these questions, I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given to four of his questions on Thursday last.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that on matters quite outside our knowledge obtained from the papers, we are to have no information whatever?
Information in my possession, and which is not in the possession of the hon. Gentleman, is published when justifiable and in the public interests.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman why the public interest was never urged in the reply given last week?
Is the position today that the right hon. Member and the Government have made a complete fiasco of our conditions and relations with Russia, and does not he think that it might, perhaps, be well to inform the House about what is going on?
I beg to give notice that I will call attention to the matter on the Vote of Credit.
asked whether the British Ambassador has yet reported what the terms of peace would be which the present Russian Government would desire; and whether those terms differ in any important respect from the war aims of the Western Allies?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second part, therefore, does not arise.
Has the right hon. Gentleman taken any steps to discover what the policy is supposed to be?
I am in constant communication with Sir George Buchanan.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government has noted the recent statement by President Wilson that had our war aims been made plain at the very outset the sympathy and enthusiasm of the Russian people might have been once and for all enlisted on our side; and whether he will, on the Vote of Credit, set out with greater clearness our war aims?
I have read the statement referred to in the first part of the question. As regards the second part, I do not presume to anticipate the judgment which the hon. Member may think fit to pronounce on any speech which it may be my duty to make, either on the Vote of Credit or on some other similar occasion.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise in regard to the speech of President Wilson that there could not be a more strong and clear condemnation of his policy?
Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise how fully President Wilson, in his remarks with regard to Russia, endorsed the views expressed from these benches?
I do not happen to have noticed that circumstance.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the statements by W. Trotsky that the Russian Government are aiming at a general peace, and that he had no idea of a separate peace; and whether that is confirmed by official information?
Yes, Sir. Such a statement was contained in the communication published by the Council of Peoples' Commissioners, in their official organ, on 1st December, the text of which has been received from His Majesty's Ambassador at Petrograd.
Roumania
asked who is our representative at present with the Roumanian Government; where he now is; and whether he is in daily or regular telegraphic communication with the Foreign Office?
Sir George Barclay is His Majesty's Minister at the Roumanian Court. He is now at Jassy, and is in regular telegraphic correspondence with His Majesty's Government.
asked the Prime Minister whether he can make any statement as to the position of Roumania; whether the Government and the Allies continue their material support of our Roumanian Allies; and whether supplies can still be sent to the Roumanian Front?
I cannot with advantage say anything more than that the gallant Roumanian Army has been obliged, by circumstances beyond its control, to conclude a military armistice.
Munitions
Ejectment Orders (Kent)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that applications are being made to the Dart-ford County Court for ejectment orders under the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (War Restrictions) Act, 1915, on the ground of wanting for reasonable occupation, and that these orders which are being made are mainly in regard to houses occupied by munition workers who are unable to obtain other houses in the same district; and, in order to avoid this evasion of the intention of the Act of 1915, will he put in force the powers to prevent the ejectment of munition workers in the North-West Kent munition areas which are now in force in Barrow-in-Furness?
As a result of representations which have been received concerning the Dartford area, arrangements have been made for a full inquiry into this and neighbouring districts to ascertain whether it would be desirable that an Order should be made applying Regulation 2 A of the Defence of the Realm Regulations to the district.
Waltham and Enfield Works
asked the Minister of Munitions whether it is proposed to separate the Royal Gunpowder Factory at Waltham Abbey and the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, which were brought under one control in 1909, and to remove the present superintendent, who has had ten years' experience there; whether, since the amalgamation of these two factories under the present superintendent, very considerable economies have been effected both in administration and production, whilst the output has so increased as to meet all requirements since the beginning of the War; whether the officers it is intended to appoint to superintend these factories have had previous experience in similar factory management; and whether the inconvenience and expense caused by the dislocation of the present system will be compensated for by any material improvement?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Owing to the increasing demands on the two factories referred to, the work of superintendence has outgrown the capacity of any one man, and as the retirement of the present superintendent has become due in the ordinary course, the opportunity has been taken to divide the control. The new superintendents have both had previous experience of factory management, and are well fitted to assume the responsibilities of the posts to which they have been appointed. I hope that the advantages to be gained will outweigh any temporary inconvenience that may be caused.
In view of the valuable services rendered by the present superintendent, will adequate provision be made for him in his removal?
I do not know what provision is being made, but I will inquire.
Controlled Establishments (Board of Referees)
asked the Prime Minister if he has received a Report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the Board of Referees on Profits of Controlled Establishments; how many sittings this Board has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in its personnel during this period; what is the annual cost to the State of this Board, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting, and stationery; and whether this Board is to be continued?
I have been asked to answer this question. The Board of Referees on Profits of Controlled Establishments was set up under the provisions of Section 5 of the Munitions of War Act, 1915. No appeals have yet been heard by the Board, and consequently it has not held any meetings. Its personnel is unchanged. No expenditure of public funds has been incurred. Under the Finance Bill it will be necessary to continue this Board, as appeals may be made to it.
Are we to understand that no applications have been made to hear appeals, and that all firms in this country engaged on munitions work are satisfied with their assessment?
I do not put the claim so high as that. I said no appeals had yet been heard.
Workers' Wages
asked the Prime Minister if he has received a report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the Wages of Munition Workers Committee; how many sittings this Committee has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in the personnel of this Committee during this period; what is the annual cost of this Committee to the State, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting, and stationery; and whether this Committee is to be continued?
I have been asked by my right hon. Friend to take this question. I have no knowledge of any such Committee.
Might I refer the hon. Gentleman to the Reports of the House?
If the hon. Gentleman will identify the Committee, of course I will make inquiries.
Financial Advisory Committee
asked the Prime Minister if he has received a Report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the Ministry of Munitions Financial Advisory Committee; how many sittings this Committee has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in its personnel during this period; what is the annual cost to the State of this Committee, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting, and stationery; and whether this Committee is to be continued?
I have been asked to answer this question. The Ministry of Munitions Financial Advisory Committee meets once a week, and its sub-committees meet two or three times a week, as occasion demands. The personnel has been strengthened recently by the appointment of some additional members. The members of the Committee do not receive remuneration. The Secretary is unpaid. There is no expenditure of public money except for pens, ink, paper, and for the use of one room. It is proposed to continue the Committee, whose work is of real value.
Are any members of this Committee of military age or military fitness?
I believe not.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the Pensions Minister whether Private Edward Leach, late of the Montgomeryshire Yeomanry, a discharged soldier who, as an insured person, was entitled to sanatorium treatment under the National Insurance Act and was provided with such treatment by the Montgomeryshire Insurance Committee, has had the sum of 1s. per day deducted from his disablement pension during the time he was in the sanatorium receiving such treatment, his sickness benefit for the period having been paid by his approved society to the insurance committee under the provisions of Section 12 (2, b ) of the National Insurance Act, 1911; and, if so, whether the amount so deducted will be refunded to this discharged soldier?
I have no doubt that the facts generally are as stated. The deduction of 1s. a day is made in all cases where any part of the cost of treatment in an institution is borne by the Ministry, or otherwise by public funds. In the case of institutional treatment for tuberculosis substantial grants are made by the Exchequer towards the cost of treatment for discharged disabled men. It must be borne in mind, moreover, that a man entering a sanatorium has an allowance equal to the highest rate of disablement pension to provide for his maintenance. The amount thus deducted during treatment in an institution is not refunded to the man on discharge from the institution.
asked the Pensions Minister whether he has yet taken into consideration the case of a London telephone operator named E. J. Colling, late Royal Field Artillery, who was invalided out of the Army in April, 1917, after being in hospital for nearly nine months, the result of a breakdown in health caused by his duties in France; and whether, after giving careful attention to all the facts, he is prepared to grant the pension to this man considering that all he has received has been a gratuity of £30?
As I promised the hon. Member in my answer to him on the 12th of last month, I consulted the special medical board with regard to the case of Mr. Colling, whom they have now re-examined. They are of opinion that the gratuity of £30 properly covers the disability until the end of February, 1918, when the case will be resubmitted to them for reconsideration.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will look into the case of Mr. Nicholas Stoker, of Low Square, Walbottle, Newburn, county Durham, whose appeal claim for separation allowance on account of his son has heen before the Appeal Committee for the last ten weeks; and will he see that a decision is reached immediately in conformity with the recommendation of the local pension committee?
A decision has been recently reached, and payment has been made, with effect from 11th January, 1917
Civil Servants Pensioned (Re-Employment)
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether, under Section 20 of the Superannuation Act, pensioned Civil servants who come back to help the Government in time of war are not entitled to receive more, including salary and pension, than their old salary of pre-war days; and, if so, whether these men, particularly those with small salaries, will be allowed to receive the war bonus, the same as other Government workers?
Pensioned Civil servants re-employed by their Departments, whose pension is completely suspended during the period of re-employment, may be allowed any war bonus to which they may be entitled under the terms of this circular, notwithstanding that it may raise their total emoluments above the rate of pay which they received at the date of retirement. Re-employed pensioners, whose pensions are not completely suspended, may also be allowed the benefit of any war bonus to which they may be entitled under the terms of this circular; but under Section 20 of the Superannuation Act, 1834, they may receive only so much pension as, with their pay, including the bonus, does not exceed the amount of their pay at the date of retirement. In these cases it should be understood that the remuneration for the purpose of the limits specified in paragraph (2) above shall be their total emoluments, including any sums received in respect of pension.
Am I to understand, on the first point of my question, that the withdrawal of the suspension of the pension is to be made separately to the Treasury or to the Department concerned, to enable them to get the war bonus?
Since the hon. Member drew attention to this point in the question I am making inquiries of the Admiralty, the War Office, and the Ministry of Munitions, to ascertain if any hardship has arisen from the operation of the Section of the Act which I quoted. It is obvious that where bonuses are given it may often happen that it is desirable for the man to surrender his pension. I am making inquiries into this matter, and I shall give my hon. Friend the result of the replies.
Will the hon. Gentleman inquire at the Post Office as well?
Yes.
School Teachers (Conscientious Objectors)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether, now that this House has directed that conscientious objectors should be disfranchised, he will issue an Order preventing them acting as teachers in elementary and secondary schools, where they have far more opportunities for evil than in any other position?
I have no authority to issue any such Order.
Will the right hon. Gentleman issue a circular advising the local education authorities of the grave danger of allowing these doctrines to be taught in our schools?
It would be the greatest breach of trust in any case if any teacher were to promote pacifist or any other form of contentious political doctrine in the schools, and I am happy to assure the hon. Member that the occasions on which complaints have been made of a teacher having failed in this respect are very few and far between.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what was done in those cases in which complaints were made?
I have no official knowledge. As the hon. Member is aware, there is no direct relation betwen the State and the teacher under our system, though there is in the Prussian, and consequently I have no official knowledge as to the relation between the local education authorities and the teacher, but I think the matter can be safely left to the local education authorities.
May I ask after the valuable statement the right hon. Gentleman has made, if anything of this kind occurs again he will consider the advisability of taking steps to deal with it?
Is not the example of these men, who are permitted to act as; teachers to the young, very prejudicial, and will he not advise the local authorities in proper cases to dispense with their services?
Would the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the issuing of instructions to the local education authorities that it should be a condition of the employment of a teacher that he should declare that he is a Tory and a Jingo?
May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman recognises patriotism as a political doctrine?
We are getting into a debate.
Bristol Channel Ports (Unemployment)
asked the Minister of National Service whether, owing to scarcity of shipping in the Bristol Channel ports, 30,000 to 40,000 men are without work and enduring privation which is causing discontent; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take to utilise these men on work of national importance?
The hon. Member appears to have been misinformed as to the number of men at the Bristol Channel ports who are unemployed. Employment at the ports necessarily depends upon the arrival of ships, and owing to the system of convoys now in force arrivals are irregular. Out of some 4,000 dockers who are generally employed, about 40 per cent. are unemployed at the present time, but the arrival of ships would immediately affect the situation. The local officers of this Ministry are alive to the desirability of securing any surplus labour for essential work elsewhere. A representative of the Ministry of National Service is being appointed to the local port labour committee.
Defence of the Realm Regulations
Police Raids
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that a police raid was carried out on the 20th ultimo at the offices of a publication called "Satire"; what was the purpose of this raid; if he is aware that on the 30th ultimo the police raided the rooms of the editor of this journal and took away the whole stock of the paper, the blocks, order and subscription books, manuscripts, correspondence files, pictorial postcards, printed circulars, stamped wrappers, the property of the journal, and also a Yost typewriter, carbon and writing paper, private pictures and photographs, private correspondence, and £4 10s. in cash, the private property of Mr. L. A. Motler; if these articles have been returned; and, if not, will he see that they are returned immediately?
On 20th November the police entered the premises at 127, Ossulton Street, in accordance with a warrant issued by the competent military authority under Regulation 51 of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and removed the press, blocks, and documents used in the production of the paper mentioned. No papers other than those connected with the issue of this paper were removed. The editor's rooms were also visited with a warrant, and a number of documents connected with the issue of the paper were removed, but no stationery was taken. The money was detained temporarily by the police because there was no responsible person present to whom it could be handed, but it has now been returned to the editor.
Is it necessary for the defence of the realm that the police should take away an old typewriter and carbon paper?
No, Sir; generally speaking, it is not, but my hon. Friend will understand that a good many things have to be taken together.
Is there any intention on the part of the Home Office to raid the offices of the newspaper with wide circulation which advocates the shooting of Members of this House?
That hardly arises out of the question.
asked the Home Secretary (1) whether he is aware that, in the course of an inquisitorial examination by the police of a householder at Redhill some days after a raid for pacifist literature, he was ordered to make a statement as to the activities of the members of his family; can he state whether the facts elicited have been regarded as satisfactory, namely, that of his sons one is a captain in an Indian regiment, another a lieutenant in the King's Own Lancashire Regiment and has been wounded in France, and another is a private in the London Scottish; and that of his daughters one is a Voluntary Aid Detachment nurse who was in charge of typhoid cases at Alexandria and has since been on duty in France, another was on duty as a nurse behind the Belgian lines in Flanders, and another is attending the children of soldiers; and, under these circumstances, does he propose to tender an apology; (2) whether he is aware that, on the occasion of a raid upon a private house at Redhill in search of pacifist literature, the police ordered the householder's wife to remain on the premises during the search which took six hours and forty minutes; that, on representing that she had to meet a son at the local railway station who had been invalided from France after ten months in the trenches and who had been transferred to the local hospital, they permitted her to proceed to the station under the charge of two constables; and can he state under what authority this was done; (3) whether, when a raid for pacifist literature is being conducted which lasts for six hours and forty minutes, he will give instructions that the police shall go properly provisioned and so not require to billet themselves upon the householder, as on the occasion of the recent raid at Redhill; (4) whether he is aware that the police, having failed to find any literature with reference to peace or war on the occasion of a raid on a private house at Bexhill, returned several days later and subjected the householder to an inquisitorial examination as to his ancestry with a view to discovering whether he had any taint of German blood; and can he say by what authority this was done; (5) whether, in view of the fact that the police recently subjected a householder at Redhill to an inquisitorial examination to discover if he had any taint of German blood in his ancestry, he can say whether such a circumstance is considered to be in itself an incriminating fact; (6), whether, in view of the fact that in the course of an inquisitional examination by the police of a householder at Redhill some days after a raid for pacifist literature, he was asked whether he bad been at a meeting at which aliens, naturalised or otherwise, were present; and can he say whether such association is incriminating; and (7) whether, in view of the fact that the recent police raid on a private house at Redhill in search of pacifist literature proved that the authorities had been misled; and, in view of the fact that there is reason to believe that private animosity is the cause, will he state the source of the information upon which the police acted so that redress may be sought by legal procedure?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on the 5th December to his questions and to that addressed to me by the hon. Member for the Cricklade Division.
May I ask whether the advocacy of Free Trade is to be regarded as seditious and to subject any man to inquisitorial examination by police officers as in this case?
That suggestion is as fantastic as those contained in the questions.
Was there any prima facie ground whatever for raiding this man's establishment?
Yes, Sir.
What was it?—It is a scandal. I will raise this matter on the Vote of Credit.
In view of this inquisitorial examination by the police on Mr. Blackie, will the right hon. Gentleman state whether having any German connection subjects a man to examination no matter how high his position in the country may be; or if having been present at a meeting at which a German attended also subjects him to examination, even though the German be a member of the War Council?
No, I do not think such attendance does. I have made a full statement with regard to Mr. Blackie, and I do not think any service is rendered to him by these questions.
I will raise this matter on the Adjournment to night.
asked the Home Secretary whether the cash, stamps, books, documents, stationery, literature, and generally all the property of the International Free Trade League, of 28, Victoria Street, S.W., which the police seized have been returned; and, if not, will he state the reason?
This property has been returned.
asked whether the books of the International Free Trade League, of 28, Victoria Street, S.W., prove that at the time the police raided the premises the number of members of the League was in excess of fifty?
I am informed by the Commissioner of Police that the answer is in the negative.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why he raids these premises, and what purpose is being served by this policy, worthy only of Castle-reagh?
That does not arise on this.
Do I understand that the police reported that there are not fifty members of this society?
That is so.
Leaflets (Censorship)
asked the Home Secretary whether he can now make any statement with regard to the intentions of the Government in connection with Regulation 27 c under the Defence of the Realm Act?
I understand that I shall have an opportunity of making a statement on this matter at the end of questions to-day.
asked the Leader of the House whether he is now in a position to make any statement with regard to the Defence of the Realm Regulation 27 c, which deals with the publication of leaflets?
In consequence of communications received from the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of the members of the late Cabinet with whom he acts, and from representatives of the Labour party and the Trades Union Congress, the Government have reconsidered that part of the Defence of the Realm Regulation 27 c which requires leaflets relating to the War to be passed by the Directors of the Press Bureau. The principal object of the Government is passing the Regulation was to prevent the circulation of a leaflet which infringes Regulation 27 or 42 before the authorities have knowledge of it, and so to give an opportunity of taking proceedings in time. The Government have come to the conclusion that this object can be attained if Regulation 27 c is amended by leaving out the words requiring a leaflet to be "passed" by the Press Bureau and inserting words which will compel any leaflet which falls within its provisions to be submitted to the Bureau seventy-two hours before it is printed, published, or distributed. They have accordingly determined to modify the Regulation in the manner described, and also to introduce an exception for documents issued only for the purpose of promoting the election of a candidate at a pending Parliamentary election.
The result will be that every leaflet falling within Regulation 27 c will be submitted to and examined by the Censor; and if it contravenes the Regulations steps can at once be taken to prevent its issue, the ultimate decision resting in case of dispute with the Courts. The course proposed will have the additional advantage that it will no longer be the duty of the Press Bureau to give its sanction to pamphlets which, although not illegal, may nevertheless be of an undesirable nature.
Is not the position now just as bad as it was before? Is it not a fact that every pamphlet and leaflet has still to be submitted to the Press Bureau, and that as soon as it is submitted, the Government, before it is issued, can descend upon the premises of those who issue, seize all the remaining copies, and at their own discretion under Regulation 52 c, without bringing it before a, Court of law, confiscate or destroy those copies? Does that not mean that the Government still has the power to suppress criticism of itself without bringing the matter before a Court of law?
No, Sir; that is not a true statement of the position. It was intolerable that leaflets infringing the law should be issued and distributed before we had a chance of stopping the issue. We desire to retain the power of intervening in time, and we do retain it under this Regulation as modified, but there is this difference: Whereas under the present Regulation the decision as to the stopping of a leaflet was in the hands of the Director of the Press Bureau, that is no longer the case. The decision will be the decision of the Government, and if there is a dispute the Courts of law will decide the matter.
Is it not the case that it is useless to modify Regulation 37 c even with this correction unless at the same time you modify Regulation 52, which gives the Government power to destroy and confiscate leaflets without bringing them before a Court of law?
I think the hon. Member means Regulation 51, for that gives power to intervene. I think that Regulation must be retained.
Is there not this difference between Regulation 37 c and 27 c, that the final decision as to whether a leaflet was proper to be circulated rested solely with the Censor, whereas in future it will rest entirely with the Court of law? [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]
I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the position is what has just been stated by the late Home Secretary? Does Regulation 51 give the power at their own discretion, if they consider a pamphlet or document suspicious, without putting it before a Court of law, to destroy or confiscate it and deal with it in any way they like? And is it not a fact that in all the raids which took place during the last few months under this Regulation, the right hon. Gentleman has seized and retained pamphlets in regard to which he dare not prosecute before a Court of law.
The hon. Gentleman is again mistaken. Regulation 51 gives power to the police, and to the competent military authority, but they can only intervene when they are satisfied that the offence comes within the Regulation. They can only seize on that footing. If they are wrong, the Courts of Law will set them right.
Prohibited Meeting, Hanley
asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the action of the chief constable for Stoke-on-Trent in commanding the municipal authorities on Thursday afternoon last to cancel the letting of the Victoria Hall, Hanley, for a public meeting called for the next night to hear an address by the hon. Member for the division on the subject of Lord Lansdowne's manifesto; and whether this action was taken under his instructions?
My attention had not previously been called to this matter, but I am making inquiry.
Has not the sanction of the Home Office first of all to be secured before the police can take any action and, if so, how is it that the right hon. Gentleman does not know?
It depends upon the facts of the case.
Do not the Defence of the Realm Regulations governing these matters require that the sanction of the Home Office or Home Secretary must be obtained before a meeting can be prohibited?
That is the ordinary way. There are exceptions in urgent cases.
Are we to understand that Members are to be precluded from addressing their constituents during war-time?
The Tories are not!
Does there exist any authority to prevent a Member of this House addressing his constituents?
I should be very reluctant to do that, but where a meeting is announced and we know there is likely to be disorder, I must take steps.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that action was taken in this case because the meeting would have demonstrated the popularity of Lord Lansdowne's views, and for no other reason?
I have already said I know nothing about the case, but I am making inquiries.
Is it not the case that the hon. Member has addressed his constituents several times without any disturbance, and what was the reason that disturbance was anticipated on this occasion?
Military Service
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Home Secretary if he will state on what grounds the Rev. William Riley was refused permission to continue to give addresses at religious services to the men at the Prince-town Settlement by the Home Office Committee?
I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to his question on the 26th November.
asked the Home Secretary whether the conscientious objector who recently shot with a revolver another conscientious objector at the Princetown Settlement was licensed to carry firearms; and whether any steps were taken to prosecute the offender for a breach of the law?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The man in question absconded from the Work Centre shortly after the occurrence referred to, and steps are being taken for his recall to military service.
Are we to understand there is no discipline at the Princetown Settlement to prevent men absconding?
There is.
Age Limit
asked whether, in the event of the age limit under the Military Service Acts being raised, members of the Volunteer Force will have an equal right of appeal as ordinary civilians to a civil tribunal?
This being a hypothetical question, it is not possible for me to return an answer to it.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the greatest deterrent to-day against volunteers joining is the feeling that they may be penalised by so doing and treated in the same way as the Derby recruits were treated? If he could make a statement that they would not be penalised it would greatly assist recruiting.
That is argument more suitable for Debate.
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have under consideration the raising of the age limit under the Military Service Acts; if so, to what age it is proposed to raise it; and what notice, if any, will be given before the same shall come into force?
I cannot add anything to the reply which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone on Thursday last.
Enemy Aliens
asked the Home Secretary whether Hugo Werths and his brother are still trading as German agents in the City and at Wood Green; whether Hugo Werths was exempted from internment because the Ministry of Munitions considered him indispensable, as his firm were experts in the diamond-die industry and agents for the principal French firms; whether he has now ascertained that this is not the fact; and whether he will take the necessary steps to intern the partners in this firm?
I am informed that one of these partners was interned in 1915, but the other partner, Hugo Werths, was exempted from internment on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee. I am making inquiry as to what is the present value of Mr. Hugo Werths' work to this country, and will consider whether he can properly retain his exemption.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that George Hornung, director of the English and Continental Casing Company, Limited, of Leeds, has never been interned, although his English-born son has had to be interned owing to his anti-English speeches; whether he is aware that F. Jaeger, another director, was interned, but let out and got away to America, and will he say how this man got a passport; whether he is aware that Louis Wille, the third director, is a naturalised German of anti-British proclivities; will he say how many Germans have been released from internment to work in this firm; and how many Germans are now working for them at their various branches?
I have made inquiries about these persons. George Hornung was exempted from internment in June, 1915, on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee. He has resided in this country for thirty-three years, and obtained a discharge from German nationality before coming here. It is not the case that his son has had to be interned; both his sons are British born and are serving in the British Army in France. F. Jaeger, who has resided in this country for over twenty years, was released from internment in January, 1915, on account of his state of health. He was granted a permit to go to America in April, 1915, in accordance with the practice then obtaining. Louis Wille, who became a naturalised British subject at the age of fifteen by virtue of the naturalisation of his father in 1885, has, I am informed, resided in this country for forty years. I have no information that he is of anti-British proclivities. The English and Continental Casing Company, Limited, are engaged in supplying surgical gut and goldbeater skin to the Government, and of their 310 working people some fifteen are Germans with a special knowledge of the manufacture, nine of these having been released from internment
Questions
Allies' War Aims
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of President Wilson's statement to Congress on 4th December that America does not wish in any way to impair or rearrange the Austro-Hungarian Empire and desires to secure for the people of the Turkish Empire the right and opportunity to make their own lives safe, their own fortunes secure against oppression or injustice, and from the dictation of foreign Courts and parties, it is now intended to revise the war aims of the Allies as stated in the Allied Note to President Wilson in January, 1917?
We have consistently expressied our readiness to confer with our Allies on the subject of war aims.
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what the relation of the answer is to the question on the Paper?
The first part of the question deals with the Note of President Wilson. I do not propose, I do not think it is my business, to deal with President Wilson's Note. The part of the question that I think it may be right to deal with is the last part, whether "it is now intended to revise the war aims of the Allies as stated in the Allied Note to President Wilson in January, 1917?" The answer to that is that we have consistently expressed our readiness to confer with our Allies on the subject of war aims. That is perfectly well known, and it is the only answer that I can properly give.
Is it the intention to do so?
Why has no council been held for the revision of war aims as requested again and again by the Russian Government?
Dominions and Colonies
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the present status of the Dominions and the importance of having regard only to the main lines of direction in dealing with those States, he will dissociate the affairs of the Colonies from those of the Dominions by the creation of a separate office or Ministry to deal with the Dominions?
The Government are not prepared to adopt the proposal in the question.
Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed that the Secretary of State for the Colonies does not think it worth while to attend—[ At this point Mr. Long took his seat on the Treasury Bench ]—when important questions greatly affecting the Dominions are put?
No, I had not noticed that. But I think it would be a great mistake for the House to assume that they should not take an answer from an Under-Secretary, which, obviously, has been prepared by the Head of the Department.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that an Under-Secretary has no responsibility, whereas these matters greatly affect public opinion in the Dominions, and it is rather infra dig for—
That is rather a long supplementary question, and goes far beyond the question on the Paper.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the danger of the Government and the House of Commons getting out of touch with the affairs of the Dominions on account of the attention of the Secretary of State for the Colonies being distracted by a great amount of routine work having no relation to the Dominions, he will reconstruct the Colonial Office so as to secure better efficiency and more harmonious working?
As there is, in my opinion, no foundation for the statements contained in the question, I do not propose to adopt the course suggested by the hon. Member.
Has the right hon. Gentleman ascertained that there is no foundation for what I suggest, or is he again simply reading a set question which has been before him?
I am not reading a question—
An answer, I meant!
I am reading an answer which I myself prepared
Statements of Policy
asked the Prime Minister whether, though he should be unable to come frequently to the House, he will arrange that important statements of policy, for which the Leader of the House has not sufficient responsibility, shall be given in the first place to the House, and that, unless the national interest otherwise commands, he will allow these pronouncements to be debated in the House?
The course suggested in the question has, so far as possible, been adopted.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman again to notice that the Prime Minister thinks it proper to make important statements of policy in the City rather than in this House, which alone is charged with the functions of leading the country?
That is, I think, entirely contrary to the experience of the House. The Prime Minister has found time again and again, when important statements have had to be made, to make them here, and he intends to continue that course.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to observe that this is not entirely a tied house and that there are independent Members who mean to defend their own rights and the privileges of the House?
Will the Prime Minister make a statement on the War on the Vote of Credit?
That will depend upon whether he thinks it is necessary to do so. Up to the present it does not occur to me that it will be necessary, and I have not yet discussed it with him.
Is it not better to do it here than at a frugal dinner at Gray's Inn?
Unity of Command
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the vital necessity of securing unity of command in the Western theatre of war and the danger involved in the setting up of the analogue of the Aulic Council, he will use all the influence of his office to obliterate the obstacles to real and effective unity; and whether he is prepared now to make an announcement to that effect in the House?
I can add nothing to statements already made on this subject.
Does not the analogy of the Aulic Council awake the right hon. Gentleman to the realities of the situation?
I never heard of it before.
Is there not one man of grit and illumination among you?
The analogy of the Aulic Council has not had that appalling effect upon me?
Mr. William Sunday
asked the Prime Minister if Mr. William Sunday has been invited on behalf of the Government to visit this country, and for what purpose?
The answer is in the negative.
May I ask whether an invitation has been sent to Mr. Sunday with the knowledge of the Government, or through any of the Government Departments?
I think not. I know nothing more about it than the answer I have given.
Has the right hon. Gentleman asked the War Aims Committee if they have asked Mr. Sunday to come here as a competitor of the Prime Minister?
Was the reply of the right hon. Gentleman made after inquiry from the War Aims Committee?
The question is addressed to the Government, and not to the War Aims Committee.
Who is Mr. Sunday?
I am sorry to say I do not know.
Supreme War Council (Naval Co-Ordination)
asked the Prime Minister whether he will now communicate to the House the Agreement under which naval co-ordination is to be secured at the Versailles War Council?
I cannot add anything to the previous replies which I have given on this subject.
As the Vote of Credit will be the last opportunity the House will have of discussing the matter this year, will a statement be ready by the time of the Vote of Credit?
The answer to which I have referred the hon. Member states that we are awaiting a communication from our Allies in regard to that question.
When was this agreement submitted to the Allies? Is it not about ten days ago?
I cannot remember the exact time, but it was during the Conference which took place in Paris last week.
Is it the intention of the Government to give another illustration of their policy: "Too late, too late?"
Work of National Importance (Committee)
asked the Prime Minister if he has received a Report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the Committee on Work of National Importance; how many sittings this Committee has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in its personnel during this period; what is the annual cost to the State of this Committee, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting, and stationery; and whether this Committee is to be continued?
The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. The Committee on Work of National Importance is not a Committee appointed to make recommendations but to take executive action in cases referred to them by the tribunals. The Committee made a Report to the Board in March last upon completion of a year's working. During the past six months the Committee has sat on seventy-five days; during that period no changes of personnel have occurred. The cost of the staff of the Committee and the expenses of members in respect of the first year of working was about £1,700, and the rate of expenditure during the present year is about the same. The offices were provided by the Office of Works, printing and stationery are supplied by the Stationery Office and postal facilities by the Post Office, and I have no information as to the cost of these services. There is no present intention of dissolving the Committee.
Will the hon. Gentleman consult the Committee so that it may be decided once and for all whether a seat in this House is work of national importance? As considerable doubt—
The hon. Gentleman ought to put his question down in the usual way.
Discharged Soldiers (Employment)
asked the Prime Minister to whom a petition, signed by discharged soldiers, imploring for employment to keep them and their families from starvation should be addressed?
If my hon. Friend will supply full particulars of the case of the soldiers concerned to the Ministers of Labour and Pensions, I am informed they will be pleased to look into the matter.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have received a petition signed by twelve men in one small village, soldiers out of work, and that it is impossible for a private Member to deal with these matters? Will he say definitely where these discharged soldiers can apply for assistance or work?
I have already given an answer to that question. I do not know to which Department it is assigned, but if the hon. Member will supply particulars and the facts are as stated, we will certainly take action in the matter.
National Service
Employment of Aliens (Committee)
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state the name of the Committee attached to the National Service Department under the presidency of Lord Burnham, under the chairmanship of J. Coudurier de Chassaigne, and of which the following gentlemen are members: C. A. Lowenadler (treasurer), Axel Gerfalk, Chevalier T. Sambucetti, Dr. W. de Veer, Flor Burton, G. Modin, N. Kittelsen, B. A. Fersht, E. Marchall, the secretary of which is John C. van Veer?
The Prime Minister has asked me to reply. A Committee consisting of the gentlemen referred to, among others, was established by Mr. Neville Chamberlain, under the name of the Foreigners' Committee for National Service. This Committee has been dissolved. An Advisory Committee is being formed to assist the branch of the Ministry of National Service dealing with the employment of aliens. I am happy to state that Lord Burnham has consented to act as Chairman of this Committee. The Committee will consist of the following members: Sir Herbert Morgan, Major Lionel Rothschild, M. Coudurier de Chassaigne, Mr. Peter Ralli, Mr. Van der Veer, Mr. Gordon Selfridge, together with representatives of the Government Departments concerned.
Will the Department in future make a point of keeping the Prime Minister informed of all these Committees that are formed?
I imagine the Prime Minister has more important work to do than to concern himself with these small Departmental Committees.
Questions
National Shipbuilding Yards
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is his intention, as guardian of the public purse, to allow the Admiralty to undertake the establishment of new shipbuilding yards without the House being consulted, especially as, in experienced quarters, the opinion is held that these new national yards, by withdrawing labour, machinery, and material now required in private yards, will actually retard rather than advance the provision of tonnage?
The policy of the Admiralty has been announced to the House. The necessary funds for the proposed new works are obtained from the Vote of Credit, and hon. Members will have the usual opportunities of expressing their views on the matter.
Has this matter been before the House, and has the House had any opportunity of expressing its opinion upon the matter? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the private shipbuilding yards could increase their output by 25 per cent. if they had sufficient labour and material?
As regards the last part of the question, that point of view was considered not only by the Admiralty but by the Cabinet, and the decision they came to was that other yards were necessary. As regards the first part of the question, no executive act would be possible if every time we had to come to the House.
Is not this matter so important that the House should have been consulted before any national scheme was entered upon?
No; I do not think so. The Government adopt the best method in their opinion, for getting ships, and if we had to come for a vote of the House every time it would be impossible to get on with this urgent work.
National Expenditure
asked the total amount of Treasury Bills outstanding on 8th December last and the total amount owing to the Bank of England on Ways and Means on the same date?
The amount of Treasury Bills outstanding on 8th December was £1,059,525,000. The amount owing to the Bank of England on Ways and Means advances on the same date was £129,000,000.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the total amount of the national expenditure for the ten weeks ended 8th December last; what were the total receipts from taxation and National War Bonds, respectively, during the same period; what was the balance of the expenditure to be met from other sources; and how much of the balance was financed by borrowing from the Bank of England on Ways and Means?
The Exchequer issues for Supply and Consolidated Fund Services for the period were £ 538,731,000. Of this, there was met from revenue, £109,977,000. The proceeds of National War Bonds paid into the Exchequer were £130,530,000. The balance falling to be provided from other sources was £298,224,000. Of this balance £38,000,000 was financed by borrowing on Ways and Means from the Bank of England.
In view of the fact that considerably less than half of the expenditure during the long period of ten weeks was met by taxation and National War Bonds combined, will the right hon. Gentleman, in introducing the Vote of Credit on Wednesday, indicate that the Government intend to change their present financial arrangements, which are aggravating the evil?
That is obviously a matter for argument and not for question. In introducing the Vote of Credit I shall not take the course suggested, as I think the methods we have adopted are the best under the circumstances.
Does the Bank of England give any credit for the amount of current accounts at the credit of Ways and Means account and other accounts? That is to say, you borrow £129,000,000, and you may have £60,000,000 or £70,000,000—
That does not arise out of this question. It is impossible to deal with these points by question and answer.
Income Tax (Ireland)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give for the last financial year the following information respecting each of the following cities in Ireland, namely: Dublin city, Belfast, Londonderry, Cork, and Limerick, population, gross annual value of property assessed, assessment under Schedule D, assessment under Schedule E, and the total amount of Income Tax paid or levied?
The information asked for is being obtained, and I will circulate it in the course of a few days.
Enteric Fever (Naval Cases)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty how many of the 893 cases of enteric fever referred to in the Local Government Board's Report for 1916–17, page 37, were naval; how many of these were inoculated; and how many fatal?
The number of cases of enteric fever in the Navy in this country during the period referred to—that is, 1st April, 1916, to 31st March, 1917—was forty. One of the patients had been inoculated, and survived; nine cases proved fatal.
Mine-Sweeping (Recognition of Bravery)
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware that J. O'Sullivan, chief engineer, His Majesty's ship "Clotilde," on active service, who belongs to Duncannon, South Wexford, was one of a party, under a special lieutenant, sent to raise a mine that was presumably sunk by gunfire and failed to explode, and, having successfully hauled it up from the depths by a derrick and whilst swinging over the deck, O'Sullivan removed the horns with a spanner, thereby almost doing away with the danger of explosion either on board or during the landing, which was afterwards successfully accomplished on Ardrossan quayside; and whether he has received or is entitled to any recognition of his bravery, which probably prevented such a catastrophe as recently occurred on the coast of Galway, where eight men lost their lives?
The incident referred to in the first part of my hon. Friend's question was not reported by the senior naval officer at Ardrossan as specially meritorious, but continuous good work in mine-sweeping always meets with awards from the recommendations which are periodically sent in by the officers in charge of areas and flotillas. As regards the incident referred to in the latter part of the question, all coastal areas are warned against meddling with mines which come on shore, and had this warning been heeded in the case on the coast of Galway, the fatalities which unfortunately resulted, and which I deeply regret, would have been avoided.
Soldiers' Leave
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will have special consideration given to the case of Driver J. T. Walkden, No. 700387, Royal Field Artillery, attached to the 47th Remount Squadron, A Battery, 210th Brigade, Egypt, who has been in Egypt for three years and four months without leave?
I have no information whether Driver Walkden has had leave home, and I can only refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 22nd November to my hon. Friend the Member for the Wellington Division of Shropshire.
I understand the hon. Gentleman to say he has no information, but may I ask him if information was not given in this question? Therefore, will he act upon that information, seeing that this young fellow, who volunteered at the beginning of the War, has had no leave for over three years?
I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Wellington. In that answer it was made perfectly plain that everything possible is being done to facilitate the granting of leave to soldiers who have served for a long time in distant theatres of war, but I thought it right to point out the difficulties of transport, and I cannot hold out to my hon. Friend any special consideration for any individual case.
Will the hon. Gentleman send instructions to commanding officers to report as to those men who have had no leave during the War?
No; I think the best judges of leave are the commanding officers in the field, and I think it would be extremely inadvisable for the House of Commons to interfere with the discretion of commanding officers as to the leave of men.
National War Bonds
Prize Schemes
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the offer of certain business firms of prizes to be awarded by drawing to subscribers to National War Bonds, and whether such offers are made with his approval?
My attention has been drawn to several offers of the kind referred to in the question. They have not received my approval, and, while I fully appreciate the patriotic motives which may have inspired them, and am very reluctant to discourage any kind of effort which may tend to increase the sale of the Bonds, I have come to the conclusion that it would be very undesirable in the national interest that the practice should extend to other firms, or that the firms who have made such offers should renew them when these present offers have expired.
A Committee of this House is at present sitting to consider the desirabilty of a Government issue of Premium Bonds, and, pending their Report (which I hope will be received at a very early date), I think it would be well to avoid any introduction of the principle in connection with Government Loans, more particularly as I am advised that the schemes referred to are under the law, as it at present stands, of doubtful legality.
Quite apart, however, from this consideration, the collection of large numbers of small subscriptions by parties possessing no adequate machinery for dealing with them—a position which will undoubtedly arise if the offers recently made are widely imitated—would lead to complications of a serious character, and, unless a complete system of official supervision and control could be organised, there would be great danger of the practice spreading to persons of doubtful probity, who might never pay over the subscriptions received; and it must be understood that the Government takes no responsibility for the money subscribed until it reaches the Post Office. On the other hand, it would not be possible to arrange for such official supervision and control unless the practice of offering prizes should be given formal recognition. I trust, therefore, that for the present no further schemes of the character in question will be launched.
Is it quite clear that my right hon. Friend has no intention of interfering with the present offer?
With the two now?
Yes.
No, I have no intention of interfering. I should have been very unwilling in any case to take legal proceedings against these firms. I should be very unwilling to do that, and I am satisfied that when the public know that, after careful consideration, the Treasury have come to the conclusion that it is not advisable, the practice will not be persisted in.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he hopes the Premium Bonds Committee will report to the House, and how soon he hopes to act upon it?
I am told that the Committee will report soon, and I shall certainly, without any delay, take a decision in regard to the matter, for it is necessary that it should be settled one w ay or the other.
Palestine Operations
Capture of Jerusalem
Has the Leader of the House any information to give with regard to the operations in Palestine?
General Allenby reports that on the 8th he attacked the enemy's positions south and west of Jerusalem. Welsh and Home County troops, advancing from the direction of Bethlehem, drove back the enemy, and, passing Jerusalem on the east, established themselves on the Jerusalem-Jericho road. At the same time London Infantry and Dismounted Yeomanry attacked strong enemy positions west and north-west of Jerusalem, and established themselves astride the Jerusalem (Shechem) road.
The Holy City, being thus isolated, was surrendered to Sir Edmund Allenby by the Mayor on 9th December. The British Political Officer, together with the British Governor of the City, accompanied by British, French, and Italian, and Indian Mahomedan Guards, is on his way to safeguard the City and the Holy places. General Allenby proposes to enter the City officially on 11th December, accompanied by the Commanders of the French and Italian contingents and the head of the French Political Mission.
The capture of Jerusalem has been in some degree delayed in consequence of the great care which has been taken to avoid damage to sacred places in and around the City.
Questions
Wigan Victoria Friendly Society
asked the Secretary to the Treasury if his attention has been called to the attempts being made to transfer the assets of the Wigan Victoria Friendly Society to the United National Friendly Assurance Society, whose office is at 226, St. Vincent Street, Glasgow; if the Wigan Society has …5,000 in its funds; if the establishment charge fund of the United National Friendly Assurance Society is already £3,000 in debt; and if, before the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies sanctions such a transfer, he will see that the assets and position of the members of the Wigan Victoria Friendly Society are adequately protected?
I am aware that this transfer of engagements is contemplated. The annual return for 1916 of the Wigan Victoria Legal Friendly Society shows the amount of its funds to be approximately £5,000 and that of the United National Friendly Assurance Collecting Society shows that the establishment charge fund of that Society is over-expended by £3,713 2s. 8d. As regards the last part of the question, if the Wigan Society decides to transfer its engagements to the United National Society in the manner prescribed by the Friendly Societies Act, and the ample safeguards prescribed by that Act are duly complied with, the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies will be bound to register the transaction.
Will the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies be careful to ascertain when any transfer takes place that the proceedings of the procedure have been in conformity with the Act?
I take it that he is bound to do so. I have refreshed my memory by referring to the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, and I am convinced that the safeguards conform to it. If my hon. Friend is not familiar with the matter I shall be very pleased to see him after questions.
Education Grant
asked the President of the Board of Education whether the minimum grant of 50 per cent. of approved expenditure on education foreshadowed by him in his speech at Bradford on the 2nd ultimo will cover higher education as well as elementary?
Yes, Sir.
Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate the source from which it is to come?
Kirkcudbright Courts (Clerks)
asked the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that for the last eight years the duties of clerk and legal assessor in the justice of peace and licensing Courts in the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright have been performed by a clerk acting as depute who is not a qualified law agent; and whether, seeing that the salary attached to the office which is paid by the county council is sufficient to entitle the justices to have the assistance of a qualified law agent as clerk and legal assessor in these Courts, he proposes to take any action in the matter?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. There is, however, no office of legal assessor to these Courts. As regards the second part of the question, there is no requirement that either the clerk of the peace or his deputes shall be law agents. I am informed that the duties are efficiently performed, and on the information before me I see no sufficient reason for interference.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether any of the justices have made representations that the present arrangement is not satisfactory?
No, so far as I am aware, but I will have inquiry made.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say that it is not the policy of the Department to squeeze out those clerks who are not qualified?
I think my answer makes that quite clear.
Fiars Prices (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Report of the Committee on Fiars Prices in Scotland will now be circulated as a Parliamentary Paper; whether the legislation about to be introduced will render it unnecessary to fix these prices for another year; and whether it is to be of a temporary or permanent character?
The Report in question (with some others) was, for reasons of economy, published as a Stationery Office publication, and has not been circulated as a Parliamentary Paper. Complaints have reached me to the effect that this method of issue does not secure sufficient publicity, or make the documents sufficiently accessible to Members of the House, and I am making inquiry into the matter. As regards the remaining parts of the question, I am anxious, if possible, to secure substantial agreement between the interests affected. In that event, legislation should not be difficult.
Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what steps he is taking towards securing agreement—by conference or something of that kind?
The present position is that I have received representations from the land interest pressing me to proceed, and from the Church interest pressing me not to proceed. If my hon. Friend can help me in bringing together those two schools of thought, he will be rendering a public service.
Can copies be got at the Vote Office, or will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to make them so obtainable?
That is a subject on which I am having inquiries made.
Land Purchase (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that the land of Furziestown, parish of Tacumshane, South Wexford, was taken over by the Estates Commissioners about three years ago and divided into five lots; that one lot consisting of 31 1–5 acres was given to Michael Kehoe, and another lot consisting of 35 1–5 acres was given to Thomas Scallan; that Kehoe has now sold his portion to Scallan, causing discontent and dissatisfaction amongst the holders of uneconomic farms in the parish of Tacumshane, as they are of opinion that this holding should have been divided between them; and can they say if the Estates Commissioners will interfere, or if there is any means of stopping the amalgamation of economic State-purchased holdings which have been distributed by the Estates Commissioners?
The reply to the first inquiries in the question is in the affirmative. As to the remainder, I am informed that Kehoe was found not to be working his parcel of land satisfactorily, and the Estates Commissioners approved of his transferring it to Scallan, who had satisfactorily worked the adjoining lands with which the parcel will be consolidated. The transfer having been made with the approval of the Commissioners, the matter cannot be reopened.
Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say that nothing will be done?
My only knowledge about the matter is that the Commissioners tell me in this case it is too late for anything to be done.
Will inquiries be made in this case?
Labourers' Cottages (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware that the Wexford Rural District Council got a new scheme passed for the erection of twelve labourers' cottages; that only two were tendered for within the limit laid down by the Local Government Board, namely £150; that the other tenders were £200; and that, therefore, the erection of the other ten cottages, which are badly needed, is prevented by the action of the Local Government Board; and whether, as the cost of building has largely increased, the Board will reconsider their decision with a view to increasing their limit of £150?
A scheme was sanctioned as the question suggests. After advertisements, the rural district council, in February, 1916, accepted tenders for the erection of two cottages at £115 and £137 7s. 6d. respectively. In April, 1916, they received a tender to build nine other cottages at £185 each, but the council considered this price too high, and issued further advertisements. In May, 1916, tenders were received for the building of two cottages at £178 and £185, but these were also rejected; and in October, 1916, on the clerk reporting that no fresh tenders were received, the council decided not to issue further advertisements. Since then the scheme has been in abeyance. The Local Government Board have not laid down any general limit for cost of building, but the council, in this instance, having asked for authority to increase their own estimate of £140, the Board assented to an increase of £10. To further increase the building estimate to £200 per cottage, as suggested in the question, would seem to be unnecessary, as in the scheme carried out by the council prior to the War the average cost of building was only £94 per cottage.
Has anything been done to facilitate the building of those cottages?
I do not know about facilitating. If the council cannot get tenders at prices that are reasonable, I do not see what can be done.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how far he proposes to go to-night with the business? Does he propose to take the third Order on the Paper—[National Health Insurance Bill]?
As there has not been time to put down Amendments the third Order will not be taken to-day, but if there be time we propose to take Order No. 13—[Chequers Estate Bill]—and also Order No. 15 [National Insurance (Unemployment) Bill].
Does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take to-night, or at any time during the Session, the Criminal Law Amendment Bill?
Probably not before Christmas.
When is it proposed to take the Imports and Exports (Temporary Control) Bill?
I cannot say; it will depend on other business whether we can take it before Christmas or afterwards.
Coal Mines Control Agreement (Confirmation) Bill
As amended, considered.
CLAUSE 1.—(Confirmation of Agreement.)
(1) The above-recited agreement of the twentieth day of July nineteen hundred and seventeen, together with all rights and powers conferred and all duties and obligations imposed thereby on the Controller of Coal Mines, the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, the Board of Referees, or any other persons, is hereby confirmed, and the said agreement shall have effect as if enacted in this Act, and shall be binding on the owners (including trustees) of any coal mine to which the said Regulation 9 G is for the time being applied, and upon all persons whom the agreement affects.
(2) If after the date of the passing of this Act any person without reasonable cause fails as and when so required to give a return or to furnish any information or to produce or give facilities for the inspection of any books, plans, or documents which, under the said agreement, he may be liable to give, furnish, or produce, or knowingly gives any information which is false in any material particular, or knowingly discloses or makes use of, for any purpose other than for such purpose as is authorised by the said agreement, any information acquired by him under the said agreement, he shall, on summary conviction, be liable to a fine not exceeding £100, and in the case of a continuing offence to a further fine of £10 for each day during which the offence continues.
Where any such offence as aforesaid is committed by a company every director and manager of the company who knowingly authorises or permits the default, shall be liable to the same penalties as the company.
(3) Nothing in this Act or in the agreement confirmed thereby shall, except as otherwise expressly provided by the agreement, affect the general powers of the Board of Trade or the Controller of Coal Mines under the said Regulation.
(4) References in the said agreement to the Controller of Coal Mines shall be deemed to include any person for the time being appointed to hold that office, and in the event of the office of Controller of Coal Mines being vacant or ceasing to exist shall be deemed to include the Board of Trade.
The following Amendment stood on the Paper in the name of Sir CLIFFORD CORY: In Sub-section (1), after the word "applied" to insert the words "in respect of matters included within such Regulations."
4.0 P.M.
It is sought by this Amendment to restrict this Bill within the same limits as the Regulations. It is clear, as it now stands, that it might give the Controller power over a very much wider property than the coal mines, and that would be going far beyond the expressed intention of the Government and the desire of this House. It would enable the Controller to take 15 per cent. excess profits of any undertaking belonging to the owner of a controlled mine, and it would put that owner at a great disadvantage as compared with owners of similar undertakings which did not happen to belong to a coal mine.
I desire to submit that this proposal is out of order. The words proposed to be added are, "in respect of matters included within such Regulation," and the result of this proposal, if carried, would be to restrict the binding effect of the agreement in the Schedule to matters included within Defence of the Realm Regulation 9 G. That Regulation has to do with the possession and control of a coal mine. It has nothing whatever to say to the question of compensation or to the mode in which excess profits are to be dealt with. If this Amendment were carried, the effect would be that the whole scheme of the agreement would be brought to an end. My submission is that this proposal is covered by a previous ruling given by you that any modification of the agreement, much more the sweeping it away, is something which is not in order.
I beg to refer you to your ruling that though it might not be possible in the agreement itself to alter the terms of the agreement, it might be possible in the Bill to alter the terms of the agreement. This Amendment has been framed in order to come exactly within the four corners of your ruling.
I was not so well acquainted when I made that observation as I am now with the agreement and with the Bill. I understand that the hon. Member agrees that if his Amendment were inserted, it would completely alter the character of the agreement. If that be so, of course, it is not admissible, because the object of the Bill, as the first words of the Clause show, is to confirm the agreement. If the hon. Member proposes to add something which destroys the confirmation of that agreement, it is contrary to that which the House has already decided.
I do not agree that this would alter the terms of the agreement. I submit that it would define the terms of the agreement.
I would submit that this is an Amendment to the latter part of the Clause which makes the agreement binding upon persons who are not parties to it, that it is possible to limit the operations of the agreement upon those who are not parties to it, and that the Amendment therefore is not inconsistent with confirming the agreement.
I agree with that proposition. If the effect of this Amendment is only to deal with those who are not parties to the agreement, then I think it is an Amendment which can be raised. I do not know what the Solicitor-General has to say on that point.
In my submission one must look at the effect these words would have, construed as part of the Act of Parliament when passed. I heard what my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Pringle) said as to the intention which is in his mind, but may I point out what the scheme of this Sub-section would become if these words were included. It would provide, in the first place, that the agreement of the 20th July, which is in the Schedule, "together with all rights and powers conferred and all duties and obligations imposed thereby on certain persons and bodies is hereby confirmed." There is the confirmation of the agreement. It would then go on to say, "The agreement shall have effect as if it were enacted in the Act, and shall be binding on the owners of any coal mine to which Regulation 9 G is for the time being applied in respect of matters included within such Regulation." In other words, those last words would clearly be construed as a limitation upon, or a subtraction from, the words that have gone before, and so far as owners of coal mines were concerned the agreement would be binding upon them only in respect of matters to be found in Regulation 9 G. All that Regulation 9 G has to do with is the possession of the mine by the Board of Trade, with the subsidiary provision that where possession is taken by the Board of Trade the owner, the agent, and the manager of the mine and the officers of the mine are to comply with the directions of the Board of Trade. The scheme and purpose of the agreement are not to give possession and control of a mine to the Board of Trade. That has already been done. The scheme and purpose of the agreement are to provide a mode of payment, a mode of compensation—the word has been objected to, but I repeat it—and for that purpose in paragraphs 3 and 4 of the agreement the excess profits of these coal mines are dealt with in a certain way. A guaranteed standard is provided, and so on. There is not a word of any of that in Regulation 9 G, and if these limiting words, "in respect of matters included within such Regulation," were here inserted the effect would be to render the agreement nugatory.
How does the hon. Member for St. Ives (Sir C. Cory) make out that his Amendment is limited to those owners who are not parties to the agreement?
If my Amendment be not limited to such coal-owners, I am willing to add words to so limit it.
If that were the proposal it is covered by more than one former ruling, because the only effect would be to render the agreement inoperative except in the case of owners of coal mines who had agreed to the agreement. That matter has been debated and discussed many times in the course of the Committee, and it has been explained over and over again that the object of this Bill is to make the agreement obligatory no less upon coal-owners who have agreed to it than upon dissenting coal-owners who have not agreed to it. If these words are interpreted in the way which is suggested, this is another attempt to revive that much-debated question.
I do not agree, and I do not think this point has been raised as applicable to those who are not parties to the agreement. There is nothing contrary to any ruling in defining the agreement so far as it applies to those coal-owners who have not been parties to it.
The fact that the matter has been discussed in Committee does not preclude the House from discussing it on Report. Therefore, the subject is open for discussion now. The Amendment of the hon. Member, instead of being as it is on the Paper, would be after the word "trustees" to insert the words "not parties to the agreement."
I beg to move, after the word "trustees," to insert the words "not parties to the agreement."
I am sure the House would admit that it would be a great hardship to inflict the whole of the terms of this agreement upon parties who have never agreed to them and who have all along resisted them and make it apply to undertakings which might be very much larger than the coal mines. If those parties who have agreed to these terms consider them just, let them be applied to them; but to apply them to a wider circle, I am sure the House will agree, would be manifestly unfair.
I question whether a precedent could be found for a Government Bill being presented to the House with the vital and operative part inserted as an agreement in a Schedule and the House being asked to impose the onerous terms and conditions of that agreement upon a large number of people who have always been hostile to it and are not parties to it, at the same time being told that they are not to have the constitutional power and right of the House to examine the agreement Clause by Clause and line by line and to make such amendments and alterations in it as they consider just and necessary. It is altogether an invasion of the powers and rights and privileges of this House, and it ought not to be tolerated. It will establish a most dangerous precedent with very far-reaching consequences. I therefore support the Amendment. I would also point out that already the Government have agreed to one limitation in the operation of the agreement. They have agreed that those who have made loans to colliery companies shall not have their powers to enforce payment of those loans according to the agreement which may have been entered into, even though in the agreement itself it still remains stipulated that no dividends shall be paid or no loans repaid without the consent of the Coal Controller. Having made this concession, we now ask the Government to make the obviously just and further fair concession contained in the Amendment of my hon. Friend, and to no longer ask the House of Commons to commit the grave dereliction of duty of placing the terms of this most drastic agreement upon numerous people who from first to last have been no parties to it without the House having first exercised its proper duty of revision and amendment.
I fear this is an Amendment which cannot be accepted. I am not sure that the last speaker entirely appreciates the effect the Amendment would have if it were adopted. The effect would be that the agreement which is contained in the Schedule would apply as a whole to the coal-owners who had agreed to it, but with regard to the coal-owners who had not agreed to it it would apply only so far as matters in Regulation 9 G are concerned, that is to say it would apply only to the extent of the possession of the mine by the Board of Trade. That has been done already by Regulation 9 G itself. Therefore the next effect would be that so far as mine-owners who are not parties to the agreement are concerned, the Bill would have no operation whatever, and the result of that would be that the agreement could not work in the case of anybody. The Amendment merely reiterates for the tenth or twentieth time a proposal made for the purpose of bringing the Bill to an end.
The Solicitor-General has somewhat misconceived the effect of the Amendment. It is quite true that it exempts certain parties from the agreement. It proposes that those who are not parties to the agreement should only be bound by it in respect of matters which are within the purview of Regulation 9 G. Regulation 9 G applies only to coal mines, but this Clause and the agreement comprise other things in addition to coalmines. You may have many subsidiary undertakings included within the operation of this agreement as a result of the Clause as it stands and of the definition Clause in the agreement. My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment says it is perfectly fair that those persons who have been parties to the agreement, who are familiar with its terms and must therefore be taken to have entered into it with their eyes open, should have not only their coalmines but any subsidiary undertakings brought within control and treated, for the purpose of excess coal payments and compensation, on the same basis as their coal mines. On the other hand, it is unfair to those who are not parties to the agreement, who have all along objected to it, but who, under this Bill, are being brought within its operations, should not only have their coal mines affected by the Bill as they are affected by control, but also their subsidiary undertakings such as a coal-merchant's business and so forth, which might possibly be brought in. That is all that the Amendment purports to do. If the Solicitor-General thinks that in its present form the Amendment does, in effect, more than this, then we are entitled to ask him at least to agree to a limitation in the sense which my hon. Friend (Sir C. Cory) desires. He merely suggests that for the purposes of the excess coal payments and for compensation the only undertakings which should be affected, except those belonging to parties to the agreement, are the coal mines which come definitely within Regulation 9 G.
The Solicitor-General did not quite appreciate that this Amendment against which he spoke is dependent on a subsequent Amendment down on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for St. Ives (Sir C. Cory). The object of these two Amendments is to secure that the taxation and control should be applied only to the coal mine and not to subsidiary undertakings. I agree with the Solicitor-General that this is a lopsided Amendment and that it applies to coal-owners in different categories. That, I agree, is quite unfair, but it is purely owing to the form in which the Government introduced the Bill, and it is only the limitations of order imposed upon us which makes it impossible for us to put down an absolutely fair Amendment. I would appeal to the President of the Board of Trade on this matter. There is some substantial point in this Amendment, and even if he will not accept it, I hope he will tell us what the policy of the Board of Trade will be. Unless this Amendment or something in this form is accepted, there will be placed upon coal-owners who also conduct a merchant's business the obligation of being controlled and of having to pay 15 per cent. extra taxation. That might not be so unfair to those who are coal-owners only, but there are many merchants who are in a different category altogether. They are merchants who are not coal-owners. They will compete with those who are subject to control and subject to the 15 per cent., but they will not be subject to control themselves. It is manifestly unfair to distinguish between the two branches of the trade in that way. Those who, like my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives, own a coal mine, say in South Wales who have large foreign depots, will under this agreement carry on their businesses subject to control and subject to the 15 per cent. taxation, to which their rivals will not be exposed. I really think that the policy of the Board of Trade is not to do that. I understand that the President of the Board of Trade wishes for control of coal mines which will operate over every coal mine, and that only. I would invite the right hon. Gentleman to tell us, whatever is the effect of the agreement, that it is his policy to get the control of all the coal mines, and that it is not his policy to control some merchants in the coal trade, and not to impose like obligations on others.
It must be evident to the House that this question is rather complicated. When we were in Committee we were under the impression that when we took out certain words so that we confined the operation of the Bill to the owner of any coal mine, it was only as regards the coal mine that we were liable. Now I hear my hon. Friends say that any part of the business, in addition to the coal mine, will also be liable to the 15 per cent. excess profits payment. I should like the Solicitor-General to tell us how we really stand at this moment. When the speeches were made in the Committee stage we were led to understand that if certain words were cut out we should be perfectly safe as regards subsidiary undertakings, such as coke ovens and so on. I agree with the Solicitor-General that this Amendment will not do, because it would bring the Bill into a hopeless state of confusion and it would not be operative at all. All our sympathies would be with the President of the Board of Trade if such a Bill passed through. If it were only the signatories to the agreement who were bound by the agreement, there would be only two persons—Mr. Guthrie and Mr. Nimmo—who would be affected by it, because nobody else signed the agreement, and it would be up to any coal-mine owner to repudiate, so far as he is personally concerned, any signing of the agreement, and it would not be legal unless the House of Commons made it the law of the land. I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to meet us in some way on this point, and to insert some words which I am sure that the Solicitor-General, with his great legal acumen, could find for us.
My hon. and gallant Friend (General Hickman) is really making upon this Amendment a speech which covers not only this Amendment, but the next one and the next after that. I cannot follow him on this Amendment over that length of country. The particular Amendment before the House is to insert the words, "not parties to the agreement" after the words "including trustees."
No, there is a consequential Amendment.
I am obliged to my hon. Friend. I am told that the meaning to be given to this Amendment is to be found in another Amendment consequen- tial upon it, namely, to add the words "in respect of matters included within such Regulation" after the word "applied." If that is put forward as a serious proposal, one may look at the Clause as it will then read
"and shall be binding on the owners (including trustees) not parties to the agreement of any coal mine to which the said Regulation 9G is, for the time being, applied in respect of matters included within such Regulation."
I say nothing of the mere vocabulary of such a provision, but let me look at the substance. The substance would be, that so far as the owners of coal mines who are not parties to the agreement are concerned, the agreement would be inoperative in their case, except in respect of matters included within Regulation 9 G. The matter which is included within Regulation 9 G is the possession and control of coal mines. This agreement has to do with the payment of compensation and distribution of excess profits. Regulation 9 G is absolutely silent on those points. Therefore, the effect of the Amendment with the consequential Amendment would be, so far as mine-owners who are not parties to the agreement are concerned, that the whole scheme of compensation would have no effect at all.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1), to add the words "Provided that this Act shall not deprive any persons who are not parties to the agreement of any rights to compensation which they may have at common law or otherwise."
This is a manuscript Amendment, but I believe that the Solicitor-General has its terms before him.
I had them ten minutes ago.
I have no doubt that even with that short notice the Solicitor-General will be able to deal with the matter. This Amendment arises out of the provisions relating to compensation which appear in the agreement. Under the existing control, apart from the agreement, every mine-owner who is prejudiced by the action of the Controller, whether in respect of the reduction of output or the control or the closing of his mine, has certain rights, either at common law, or he may appear before the Defence of the Realm (Losses) Commission, and ask for compensation on the principles according to which compensation has been granted to other property owners whose property has been damaged as a result of matters arising out of the War.
This agreement, however, interferes with these rights, and particularly in Clause 10 of the agreement, a certain substitute is offered to those coal-owners whose output is reduced to a point lower than 65 per cent. of the standard output. In the closing moments of the Committee Debate the Solicitor-General for the first time gave us an interpretation of this highly intricate and technical Clause, and we were greatly indebted to him. He indeed made it possible for us to understand paragraphs ( a ) and ( b ), but it still remains very difficult to understand what the practical operation would be, and I have proposed this Amendment now in the hope that it may elicit some statement which would make clear what is the practical operation of the compensation proposals. We know to a certain extent what would happen to a man if he went before the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission, and the House is entitled to ask for a statement which would enable us to see how the provisions in relation to compensation which are embodied in the agreement compare with the treatment which a coal-owner would receive if he depended upon his remedy either at law or before the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission. It is impossible to raise these questions as affecting all the persons who are parties to the agreement, owing to the rules of order under which we are bound to discuss the Bill, and I am bound to propose the Amendment in the form of excluding those who are not parties to the Bill from a situation in which they will be deprived of their common law and other rights.
I beg to second the Amendment.
One at least of the objections to the raising of the same question a dozen or at it may be twenty times in the course of the various stages of one Bill is that one is expected a dozen or twenty times to make a reply. My hon. and learned Friend has invited me to make a short reply, and I promise it shall be short. On the Second Reading the President of the Board of Trade and others explained how it was that this agreement had come into existence. It was precisely because Regulation 9 G, under which possession and control of all coal mines in the United Kingdom had been assumed, made no provision whatever for compensation, and it was pointed out repeatedly in the course of that and the subsequent Debate that in those circumstances there were only two courses open. One was the method of agreement, which was in fact the method pursued, and the other was the dilatory, uncertain and expensive method of leaving each individual coal-owner to his remedies, whatever they might be. I am not going to conjecture what would have been the measure of compensation which the coal-owner might have obtained if he had gone before the Defence of the Realm Losses Commission. The general principle which that Commission observes is contained in the Manual, and is familiar to the House. It is that compensation is to be given for direct loss or damage sustained by the property or the business of the person claiming. Many cases have arisen which throw light upon the interpretation which the Commission gives to the words "direct loss." That Commission has also laid down the principle that where the cause which operates to create loss is a cause of a general character, no one individual may recover compensation at all. I really do not know what would happen if the coal-owners went to that Commission. I will not attempt to conjecture whether the Commission would have said, "You are all in the same boat, and not one of you shall have compensation." The method which this Bill has observed, and in my submission a better method than litigation, is by making an adjustment, a balance between coal-owners whose profits are increased and coal-owners whose profits are diminished, to secure something like fair and equitable treatment. To say, after that agreement has been made and this Bill has been introduced for the purpose of giving effect to it, that owners who are not made parties to the agreement shall be left to whatever rights of compensation they would otherwise have had is really another way of undoing all the work that has been done.
I am not surprised that the hon. and learned Gentleman has risen to his great position of eminence when he has the unblushing audacity to tell this House that this is a Bill to compensate coal-owners, when it is a Bill to take from certain coal-owners 15 per cent. of their excess profits. I fail to see how that can be construed as compensation. It would have been more fittingly described as confiscation.
My hon. Friend is paying me a compliment which I do not deserve. The title of this Bill is a Bill to confirm and give effect to a certain agreement relating to the compensation to be paid. Whatever credit is due for that word, I hope the hon. Baronet will not impute it to me.
I am afraid I am bound to impute it to the hon. and learned Gentleman, because he has adopted the words. He may not have been responsible for them in the first place, but he seems to have adopted, endorsed and confirmed them, and is as culpable as the framers of the Bill. We sought in Committee to give the Bill a proper title, but the Amendment was ruled out of Order; otherwise we might have had a true description of it, instead of the very misleading one which it now bears. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that coal-owners, if this scheme had not been introduced, would have had no right to compensation. I think he is not quite accurate in making that statement, because they had the right, as I understand it, of getting compensation under the Defence of the Realm Act by a petition of right. He said if they went to the Losses Commission they might not have received all the compensation they desired. That may be true, but, on the other hand, where compensation has been sought by petition of right, in nearly every case I understand the parties have received the utmost compensation. Therefore, it seems to me very unfair to any class of property-owners that their property should be taken from them—this is really a new procedure on the part of the House—without any compensation, and that they should be robbed of their rights under common law. I really think in justice to this class of property-owners—and this kind of thing may extend to all classes of property-owners—the House should accept the Amendment. If, indeed, people have been so foolish as to accept such an agreement, let them bear the brunt of it; but why it should be forced on people who have never accepted it and their property should be confiscated, I do not understand. I trust the Government will yet show a measure of justice and fairness by accepting this Amendment.
I am sorry that the Solicitor-General has made no attempt whatever to justify the Government introducing this Bill in the form in which it is presented to the House. I should like him to justify asking the House to impose the onerous provisions of this agreement upon a large number of people who are not parties to it, whilst at the same time the House is deprived of its proper right to revise and alter it as it thinks is just and necessary before so imposing it.
This is not the Third Reading Debate. I must ask the hon. Baronet to confine himself to the Amendment.
I support the Amendment because I am of the opinion that those who are no parties to the agreement ought to have their full rights and privileges under the law of the land and under recent regulations and legislation preserved to them intact, and not be deprived of them as they are in this Bill.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words,
"Provided that nothing in this Act shall extend to apply the terms of the said agreement to the owners of any coal mine in respect of coke ovens or by-product plant belonging to them."
The object of this Amendment is to exclude coke ovens or by-product plant from the operations of the Bill. This is only reasonable, as they stand on a different footing from the ordinary plant of a coal mine. The question whether or not coke ovens come under the agreement was the subject of discussion on the Second Reading and in Committee. It has been stated by the Solicitor-General as well as by the President of the Board of Trade, if I remember aright, that there is no intention to take subsidiary undertakings which are not necessarily under the control of the coal mine and to include them in the Bill. The main object behind this Amendment is to be found in the fact that the Bill will materially affect the output of basic iron, which is so necessary in connection with the proper carrying on of this War. I make my appeal on these grounds, not because I am interested in either coalmines or basic iron, but merely from the point of view that it is desirable to encourage this new industry by every possible means in our power. I am sure the Solicitor-General has no desire to do any-think which will prejudicially affect the output of material necessary for the War. We know there is a serious shortage in the output from coke ovens which is required for making basic iron. The Government are doing all they can to encourage the development of this industry, which is the bedrock of nearly everything produced to-day for the carrying on of the War. That is the only point, indeed, that I desire to make in support of the Amendment. Other speakers may adduce other arguments, but I do earnestly appeal to the President of the Board of Trade and the Solicitor-General to accept this Amendment, which is put forward entirely in the national interest and because I want it to be made clear that they are prepared to protect rather than hinder an important industry like this.
In rising to second the Amendment, I desire to call the attention of the House to the fact that this coking plant for producing residual products is absolutely essential to the conduct of the War. Since the commencement of the War the Government have pressed colliery-owners and others very strongly to erect coking plant of this character in order that they may produce a maximum amount of residual products for the manufacture of explosives. The colliery-owners have responded patriotically to that appeal. They have erected all over the country coking plant of this description, not at the normal pre-war cost, but at an expenditure of two or three times as much, and consequently to include this plant along with the coal mine would be obviously unfair. It is perfectly clear that as a large number of colliery-owners have done this at their own expense, without any assistance from the Government whatsoever, they ought not to be subjected to this extra taxation of 15 per cent. over and above the tax upon their excess profits. They have been actuated by a desire in putting up this plant to help the Government in the successful prosecution of the War, and I hope, therefore, they will be given the protection we ask in this matter. We have already been told there is no intention to take this 15 per cent. on profits that arise from works already under the control of the Ministry of Munitions, but, so far as I am aware, this coking plant is not under the control of that Ministry, and we ask, therefore, that it should be definitely excluded from the scope of the Bill.
I need hardly say that I am entirely in sympathy with the purpose of the hon. and gallant Member who moved this Amendment. But it is a little difficult to see with regard to the Amendment, as it has been with regard to many other Amendments, whether it is reasonably likely to produce the effect which the Mover desires. How does the matter stand at present? So far as owners are concerned, this Bill and the agreement contained in it has no relation to any owners except owners of coal mines whose mines have been taken possession of under the provisions of the Regulations issued. The Bill and the agreement refer to the colliery undertaking, less certain parts of that undertaking; and with regard to the subsidiary matters, one has to accept the view that there is no intention to rope in, if I may use that phrase, subsidiary matters which are not an inseparable part of the colliery undertaking. It is the express wish and intention of the Board of Trade to do nothing of that kind. If the words of this Amendment were adopted, the effect would be that the House would insert a specific proviso with reference to coke ovens or by-product plant, and immediately the question would arise, Why are these things alone excepted? The effect might well be to give rise to the impression that things which are not expressly excluded are to be taken to be included in the Bill. It might be said that if it had been intended to exclude steam works or farms, or other matters which belong to the owners of a colliery undertaking, those things would have been named. I have not the slightest objection to the policy which is contained in this Amendment, and I only venture to point out for the consideration of the hon. and gallant Member that the effect of the Amendment might be something quite different from what he desires. I will, therefore, ask him to consider whether it would not be better to leave the Bill in this respect as it stands and rely, as I venture to think he may rely, on the announced policy of my right hon. Friend.
I think there may be a good deal to be said for what has been suggested by the Solicitor-General as to the objections that may be raised to this Amendment, and that is why the earlier Amendment we proposed was so desirable. Still, there is much to be said for the Amendment itself. A good deal of pressure has been exercised by the Government upon colliery owners to facilitate the making of basic iron. One necessity for that is coke ovens and other by-product apparatus, and although, as I understand, the Controller has undertaken that these subsidiary undertakings shall not be included, the fact remains that when companies seek to obtain capital they will find it difficult to raise it, because of the fear that the subsidiary undertakings may be subject to this 15 per cent. extra taxation. In view of that I do not think they would have the least chance of getting capital. If the colliery owners put up this apparatus in order to meet the demands of the Government, they ought not thus to be mulcted to the tune of 15 per cent., because it will make it hopeless for them to raise the necessary capital under the circumstances. I hope the Government will consider the Amendment from that point of view.
I understand that at a deputation to the President of the Board of Trade—I was not present myself—a statement was made by the right hon. Gentleman on this subject, and I hope he will be good enough to repeat it here, so that we may know exactly where we stand in this matter. The situation is this: the Government naturally desire an increased manufacture of basic iron, and there is a danger that they may not get it—indeed, it is within the knowledge of many people at the present moment that the extension of coke ovens is being held up because of the fear that this industry will be brought under the operation of this Bill. We are told that where the apparatus is under the control of the Ministry of Munitions the Bill is not to apply, and I now ask the President of the Board of Trade to repeat here what he said to the deputation, so that we may know exactly where we stand.
I am very grateful to the Solicitor-General for what he has said. But the difficulty, which I am sure he will appreciate, is that under the Bill and under the agreement as it stands, these coke ovens are subject to the Bill. There is no doubt whatever about that, and the Coal Controller, if this Bill passes in this form, can make the coke ovens subject to its provisions. But the Solicitor-General tells us it is not the intention of the Government, even if that be the effect of the Bill, to pursue a policy which will bring them subject to its provisions. That, so far as it goes, is very satisfactory, but it is not as satisfactory as it would be if the Bill were better drawn. Law officers come and go. Coal Controllers may come and go, and even Presidents of the Board of Trade succeed one another, and any undertaking given by the right hon. Gentleman is not necessarily binding on his successor. Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman frankly what I am afraid of. I believe it is not the intention of himself or of the Coal Controller to extend this Bill further than the coal mine. But I very much doubt whether the financial provision made under this agreement is sufficient. In a year's time a large sum of public money may be necessary, and the effect of that will be to force him, and certainly the effect will be to force his successor, to get what money he can to make the Bill pay for itself. Then I am afraid, under these conditions, these subsidiary undertakings will be brought in. I ask the President of the Board of Trade to tell us definitely that this agreement is not meant to apply to these coke ovens in any way, and that so far as he can bind his successor, he will give an assurance he shall not extend it from the coal mine to any subsidiary undertakings.
5.0 P.M.
I happen to be a member of a committee that has received requests from the Government to do all we can to forward the creation of coke ovens on the ground that it is of very great national importance that they should be started. I know nothing whatever about them except the explanation given to the committee of which I am a member, but I now understand from the learned Solicitor-General that it is not the intention of the Government, or of the Board of Trade, to apply the powers which, so far as I understand it, are undoubtedly in this Bill to coke ovens. If that is so, and if, as I think is fairly evident, people will not put money into new enterprises in the shape of coke ovens if they are to pay larger taxation than is paid by other people in other enterprises, why should not the right hon. Gentleman accept the Amendment? The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Roch) said, quite truly, that Presidents of the Board of Trade come and go, that Controllers come and go, and that even all officials come and go eventually. In these circumstances it is absolutely absurd to suppose that any statement, in whatever good faith it is made—because I am not for a moment questioning the good faith—will be valid or binding in a year's time, two years' time, or whenever the time occurs that there is a change in this Government or the officials connected with the administration of this Bill. If, therefore, it is the intention of the Government, as I understand it is from what the Solicitor-General said, not to apply this Bill to coke ovens, why on earth do they not accept the Amendment? It seems to me to be an unanswerable argument. I am sure the learned Solicitor-General will agree with me that in a Court of law no statement made in this House is valid at all. It is of absolutely no use, and therefore, in view of the fact, as far as I know—and I may be wrong—that this is an important matter connected with the War, it does seem absurd to refuse to accept an Amendment the effect of which is to do exactly what the Government desires to do. I hope that in those circumstances the President of the Board of Trade will accept the Amendment which has been moved.
I think I made it clear that our opposition to the Amendment was based not upon hostility to the policy which it was intended to enforce, but on the doubt whether the Amendment was well calculated to enforce that policy. That being so, and having put in that caveat, I am satisfied that it is the desire of those who are specially interested in this Bill that these words should be inserted—at any rate, I gather that there is a strong feeling in certain quarters in this House and in quarters well informed upon this matter—and we, therefore, propose to accept the Amendment.
Might I suggest to the learned Solicitor-General that the Amendment would be made more complete, and it would carry out his argument exactly, if we added to it the words "and such-like works not directly concerned with the raising of coal"? If those words were added to the words of the hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment it would cut out all the other works which the Solicitor-General says might, if this Amendment were put in, be naturally affected, and, therefore, his original argument against putting in these words of the Amendment would fall to the ground, because all the other subsidiary undertakings would come under the definition of not being directly concerned with the raising of coal. I venture to suggest that to the Solicitor-General as being a natural completion of this Amendment.
I desire to thank the Solicitor-General for the manner in which he has accepted the Amendment—
No second speech is allowed.
Amendment agreed to.
May I propose, as an Amendment, at the end of the words just agreed to, to add the words "and such-like works not directly concerned with the raising of coal"?
May I say that this matter is really not worthy of prolonged discussion. I personally do not like the words suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but if he will leave the matter until a later stage we will endeavour to find such words as will carry out what is undoubtedly the policy common to everybody concerned.
CLAUSE 3.—(Accounts and Audit.)
(1) Sums Collected by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue under the said agreement shall be paid into such account as the Controller may direct.
(2) Payments into and out of the said account shall be made, and all other matters relating to the administration of that account and to the money standing to the credit of the account (including the interest of any such money) shall be regulated in such manner as the Treasury may direct.
(3) At the end of every financial year accounts of the payments into and the expenditure defrayed out of the said account shall be made up in such form and with such particulars as may be directed by the Treasury, and shall be audited by the Controller and Auditor-General as public accounts in accordance with such Regulations as the Treasury may make, and shall be laid before Parliament with a report thereon.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "interest" ["(including the interest of any such money)"], and to insert instead thereof the word "investment."
This is a purely verbal change. If the House will turn to the Clause they will see that the intention always was to make it "including the investment of any such money," and not "the interest of any such money."
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 6.—(Powers of Suing and Being Sued.)
The Coal Controller or the President of the Board of Trade may sue or be sued for breach of the above recited agreement.
I beg to move to leave out the words, "Coal Controller or the President of," and to insert instead thereof the words "Controller of Coal Mines, or as the case may be."
That gives a correct definition of the Controller's position, and removes the question of the President of the Board of Trade, leaving it to the Board of Trade as the authority all the way through, as the responsible party.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
There is only one point I desire to raise further on this Bill, because everyone will now agree that it has been very fully discussed. The point I wish to raise is one which owing to the method of procedure it has been impossible to raise effectively hitherto at any stage of the discussion. During the Committee stage my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson), who leads the Labour party, desired to move an Amendment to provide that where mines were controlled there should be a provision for the relief of the miners who were unemployed in consequence of the Controller's action. Up to the present we have had no statement from the Government as to what its intentions are in the event of any large number of miners being thrown out of employment under these conditions. There are, of course, many cases where mines may be closed as the result of the action of the Controller, and where it may be possible for the miners thus unemployed to obtain other employment. On the other hand, there are districts where no alternative employment will be available to these men. The consequence is that there will be necessarily a large drain upon the unemployment relief funds of the trade unions, or a drain on local relief funds. Undoubtedly in certain districts already, as the result of conditions arising out of the control, there has been extensive unemployment. In one town, for example, I am told that during recent months something like £30,000 has been paid in unemployment benefit. There is also the example where appeal has become necessary to the county funds.
I think that the House should not part with a Bill of this character, which for the first time enables us to express our opinion on the working of the coal control, without asking for some assurances from the Government that the miners who are going to be prejudiced by it are also going to be treated at least as well in respect of compensation as the coal-owners are to be treated. Up to the present we have had no statement from the Government whatever, and I hope therefore that before the House assents to the Third Reading we shall receive some assurance from the President of the Board of Trade on this matter. I regret that it is not possible to put it in the form of a concrete proposal, and as it has been impossible to do that the only opportunity is now to make an appeal to the Government and to express the hope that if this Bill is passed the Government will have this matter under its consideration, and that if necessary something effective, will be done.
I sincerely hope that hon. Members will give their assent to the Third Reading of this Bill at once. I need not recall to their attention the fact that in some instances the control of these mines has now gone on for a period of nearly twelve months, and in other instances for some nine months. It would seem to me unfair to the mineowners—it certainly would be unfair to the Coal Controller—that there should be any unnecessary delay in coming to a decision on this Bill, and I am quite sure that the hon. Member who has just spoken would not desire unnecessarily to interfere with this control. I can assure him and other hon. Members that this control, and other controls, do not form an altogether pleasant task. Certainly I can speak for the Coal Controller and for his staff, as well for myself, when I say that we shall be exceedingly happy when these controls come to an end. These controls in this form should not continue one single day longer than is absolutely necessary in the country's interest, and therefore I am sure we shall have the support of all hon. Members in our efforts to work this control as best we can in the circumstances. As to the particular points raised by the hon. Member (Mr. Pringle), that of unemployment in connection with the coal mines, it is not necessary for me to remind him that it is a matter quite separate and distinct from the Bill itself. At the same time it is a matter of great importance, and I should like to give him and other hon. Members the assurance that it has not been lost sight of. It has had our attention for some considerable time. The Coal Controller is in close negotiation with the mine-owners and the Miners' Federation, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the position of the miners will have the sympathetic consideration of the Government.
I have listened with great satisfaction to the statement just made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. On the Committee stage of this Bill I drew special attention to the fact that if through State interference or action on the part of the Coal Controller particular mines were caused to work a fewer number of days and in consequence the coal miners lost so many days' work every week they were clearly entitled to compensation, though not at the cost of the coal-owners. After all, this Bill does not contain a proposal that the coal-owners shall be compensated at the cost of the State, but that it shall be at the cost of themselves, and therefore that would not be on all fours with the case of the coal miners, who, obviously, must be compensated at the cost of the State for any loss that they sustain through State interference. I am glad— and I am sure the House is glad—to have the sympathetic statement of the President of the Board of Trade that this matter is receiving careful consideration, with every disposition on the part of the Board of Trade and the Government that coal miners shall be treated fairly in regard to this matter.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
Supply
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. Whitley in the Chair.]
Navy Supplementary Estimate, 1917–18
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That an additional number of officers and men, not exceeding 50,000, be employed for the Sea and Coastguard Services, for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1918."
This is a Supplementary Estimate for 50,000 officers, men, and boys of the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines for 1917–18. We started the financial year 1916–17 authorised to work up to a maximum of 350,000 officers, men, and boys, Royal Navy and Royal Marines. On the 28th February, 1917, the House gave us a Supplementary Estimate for 50,000 more. That is to say, we were authorised in 1916–17 to work up to a maximum of 400,000, and we started this financial year 1917–18 with the same authorisation, to work up to 400,000. We are round about that number now. Therefore, we have thought it expedient to ask for a further Supplementary Estimate for 50,000, so that the maximum number we can work up to for the financial year ending March 31st, 1918, is 450,000 officers, men, and boys. I might explain to the Committee very briefly the sources from which we are obtaining and propose to obtain the numbers for the personnel of the Fleet. As regards officers, the chief method of recruiting is through the preparatory and public schools with training in the Royal Naval Colleges. In addition to that we get other officers by promotion from the lower deck to acting mate, by the entry into the Royal Naval Reserves of officers from the mer- cantile marine, by the entry and training of Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers for sea service. Direct entries of temporary Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers are also being made for miscellaneous purposes.
As regards engineer officers, our additional requirements are being met by direct entry of officers for temporary service, and by the promotion of lower deck ratings. As regards medical officers, a number are obtained by the entry of medical students as surgeon probationers of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. These officers are demobilised after a certain time to enable them to complete their medical study, and on being demobilised they are asked if they are willing to re-enter as temporary surgeons when qualified. No compulsion is applied, and their refusal to re-enter does not prevent their being demobilised in the way I have indicated. As regards accountant officers, these are obtained in the usual way by the entry of assistant clerks and by the promotion of assistant paymasters being speeded up. A few assistant paymasters of the Royal Naval Reserve are still being entered, and a few men of lower physical categories are entering as assistant paymasters of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve for clerical and coding duties ashore. That is the state of affairs as regards extra officers. As regards naval ratings, apart from men voluntarily presenting themselves at naval recruiting offices, we obtain entries indirectly under the Military Service Acts. That is to say, men who are called up under those Acts have a Statutory right to express preference for the Navy, and we have a first call upon them if we desire their services. We enter them if we want them, and if they satisfy our physical and educational standards. Again, we have the direct entry of boys under the age of eighteen in training for the seamen, wireless telegraphy, signal, shipwright, and engine-room artificer classes. We shall continue to invite enrolments under these headings as may be necessary. As regards the naval grouping scheme of deferred entry, a system which we have used during the War, under which men signed on and would undertake to join us when we want them; that system has been discontinued except as regards two classes: (1) The fishermen class, whose ultimate destination will be the trawler reserve; and (2) certain skilled ratings, for which men employed on Government work are enrolled. We desire, these men to remain as long as possible in their industrial occupation until the moment comes when it is necessary for us to call them up for training in the Navy. They are called up after consultation between the Admiralty, the Ministry of Munitions and the Ministry for National Service. By that means we are able to allow men to remain at their civil industrial work until we require them.
It would be out of order to discuss generally naval policy upon this Vote, but may I be permitted to ask a few questions as regards the purpose of the Vote? The country, it seems to me, has been too long led away with complacent phrases, such as "We must win this War"; "We cannot be beaten"; "Right must conquer." All those optimistic assurances have not helped us much, because the German military position to-day is probably as strong, if not stronger than ever before, while her navy is intact. We understand that in a few days there is to be a statement in the House with respect to man-power. I think this Vote partakes of the character of the utilisation of man-power. British man-power and British economic and financial affairs are to-day strained to the uttermost, and now the Admiralty come and ask for 50,000 more men.
As a maximum.
Whenever a Department asks for a number of men it generally manages to work up to the maximum. My right hon. friend, with his skill as a Parliamentarian, has told us a great many details which were very effective, but he did not tell us what new development in Admiralty policy demands these additional men. In my judgment there is more waste in the Government Services to-day than in any other portion of national activity. I am not sure that there is not more waste in the Army than in the Navy. Men are got easily, and they are squandered recklessly, and I would have liked, if my hon. Friend could have given it, some indication as to whether we are to expect a new development of Admiralty policy. Though the confidence of the country in the Navy is unabated, I am sorry to say that the country has lost somewhat its confidence in the Admiralty. It seems that the Admiralty are fumbling with a magnificent weapon which it is unable to wield efficiently. Now, 50,000 more men are asked for! I do not think the Admiralty have shown that they realise what a strain there has been upon the man-power of the country. I cannot argue that, but there was a question put to-day with respect to national shipyards which proved that they have shown no notion as to what the strain is. These national shipyards must require labour, and I would like to ask my right hon. Friend whether any of these 50,000 men will be employed in any of these new national shipyards, which is the latest form of Government waste? From what class will these men be drawn? Are they to be drawn from the class which I know best—that of agricultural labour?
We cannot have a general review on this Supplemental Vote; certainly not the same Debate as we had on Class A. Hon. Members must remember that this is only a Supplementary Estimate, and, therefore, anything they have to say must be confined to the justification or otherwise of so large a number as 50,000 men being required for naval purposes.
Surely we can discuss whether these 50,000 men can be spared from other sources, and whether the Admiralty can make a case to the House for taking these 50,000 men from other services for which they are urgently required?
We are very anxious about the man-power of the Army—the Army being now the primary force of the nation—[Hon. Members: "Oh!"]—and we are suddenly met with a demand for 50,000 men, who are to be taken away from the Army for the comparative subsidiary force of the Navy. If we cannot debate the question of manpower, we are very much curtailed in our rights and privileges.
It is not a demand for 50,000 men, but it provides that we shall not go beyond the maximum of 50,000.
Clearly, it would not be possible to review the whole question of man-power on a Vote of this kind. I understand that when we come to the Vote of Credit that question will be open in all its branches. We cannot anticipate that now in what must be a fragmentary discussion on a Supplementary Vote.
If I may respectfully say so, I quite argee with you in one respect. If this had been a question on Vote A, my remarks would have taken a very different form. I feel cabined and confined by the Rules of Order. My hon. and gallant Friend (Sir Ivor Philipps) said that the Navy is a subsidiary Service.
A comparatively subsidiary Service.
I do not agree with my hon. and gallant Friend. I will say no more than that, except that if it were not for the Navy, the Army would not be able to carry out its operations I want to know whether the Admiralty are going to withdraw men from classes which are producing food. Are they going to withdraw them from fishermen who are producing food? I think that that is a very doubtful policy. Fishermen at present are bringing food into the country. It is the duty of the Admiralty to protect food coming into the country, but, unfortunately, they have been somewhat apathetic in dealing with the matter, and therefore food has been sunk in very large cargoes. That is the point of view from which I want the Committee to approach this subject. Will this 50,000 be an effective contribution to the fighting forces of the country? If this Vote had been asked for two years ago it would have been accepted without any cavil or criticism, but to-day our belief in the infallibility of Government Departments is gone, and we should like to have some reasons why this large increase is asked for in addition to the present very considerable naval strength. Are the Admiralty using the present naval strength to the best advantage? If the Admiralty were intending to engage in a vigorous offensive, I would hold up my hands for this increase. But are they? If the Admiralty intend to carry on only the present policy of a passive blockade of Germany, do they want these men? The present strength of the Allied naval forces is something like five to one to that of the enemy. If the Admiralty are going to carry on a passive blockade, why do they want to increase that margin to something like six to one? It does not seem to me that a case has been made out. I would like very much to know whether, when these 50,000 men are added, the Admiralty propose to use the Navy in co-operation with the Army to destroy the hornet nests of submarines?
That should have been done a few years ago.
Clearly these are questions of strategy and naval and military policy, which are not in order on the Vote before us.
Then as we are voting this money I should have imagined that it would have been in order to ask what these 50,000 men are going to be used for. Do the Admiralty propose to keep up such a very large number of big battleships? I understand that some very big ships are being built. Are they ships necessary for maintaining the blockade of Germany or for hunting submarines? The Committee would do well to scrutinise carefully all the Government Departments, including some Departments of the Admiralty. One thing I wish is that we had a far more critical and constructive Opposition than we have got to-day. If we had we might be able to insist that the Government should apply itself a little more to utilising the national resources to the best advantage; but as I am debarred from going into a general naval policy I can only hope that the Admiralty will use these men to the best advantage. It has not appeared that they are utilising the enormous forces at our disposal to the best advantage, and I hope that that may be improved in future.
I do not propose to follow the right hon. Gentleman into the questions of naval strategy in which he appears to be a past-master. I only desire to ask a question with reference to a class of men who are doing a great deal of good work in the Navy though they are not at present on the strength of the Navy. Those are the mercantile marine ratings who serve as Fleet Auxiliaries. As I understand, these men at present are not on the strength of the naval forces. They suffer from a great many disabilities into which I cannot go now as under the rules of order they would not arise, but most of them are financial difficulties. All those would be swept away if those men were enlisted men, and therefore I think that they should be on this Supplementary Vote. They do practically the same work as many men on the strength of the Navy. There is one other small point as to the question of surgeons, on which there has been a great deal of dissatisfaction in the Army. When young officers go home to complete their surgical training and are offered commissions in the Royal Army Medical Corps they are refused any previous seniority, but I have heard it stated in France that the Navy take an opposite view, and that if a newly qualified surgeon joins the Navy he is given his previous seniority. Perhaps my right hon. Friend would be good enough to give the point his attention. It is an important one. When a man serves two years in France it is rather ridiculous that he should go out to France just as if he were an entirely new officer with no service whatever. I trust that I am correctly informed and that the Navy do give to such young men, whether they have been in the Army or Navy, some claim to their previous seniority.
My right hon. Friend (Mr. Lambert) has asked a question about the personnel of the new dockyards being included. He knows from his previous experience that the personnel of Royal Dockyards does not come into this Vote or into the naval personnel in any circumstances whatever. I only mention the point in order that the Committee may not be misled on it. I would like to ask my right hon. Friend whether the minesweepers are included in this Vote, because, in a letter to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Gravesend (Sir G. Parker) he stated that they were not included in the total of personnel.
They were not in those days.
In common with my right hon. Friend, I would like to point out that this represents a very large expansion of naval personnel. It brings the total strength to about 450,000. At the beginning of the War the personnel was 213,000, in which were included 67,000 Reserves, and we did not draw upon those Reserves to the full extent at the beginning of the War. That personnel of 450,000 compares with a total of 120,000, which was all we had within a period of four years after the French revolutionary war broke out. The previous highest total of personnel employed in the history of naval war was 146,000 in the year 1813. I have not the slightest doubt that the Admiralty will get every single man they ask for. I agree with my right hon. Friend that they are bound to. Not only will this House readily grant anything that the Admiralty may ask for, but it is also the case that the men will volunteer. The Navy is a popular Service, and one of the chief things on which the House of Commons has got to pride itself is that a democratised House of Commons has so improved the Navy as to make the Navy the attractive force that it is to-day. In the old days it was very different. We had the greatest difficulty in getting men in the days of the press gang; and not only that, but magistrates were enjoined to send into the Navy smugglers, rogues, vagabonds, thieves, idle and dissolute persons, sturdy beggars, and suspected rebels. You will find all these classes included in the Act of Parliament. Yet with a Navy manned with such difficulty we won the Battle of Trafalgar, where the enemy was 22 per cent. superior in gun-power. One thing on which the House of Commons cannot pride itself is that when my right hon. Friend dealt with the supply of officers he never mentioned promotions from the lower deck to supply the upper branches.
Yes.
Certainly not the upper branches. We get chief boatswains and chief gunners.
May I interrupt for a moment, I am within the recollection of the House. I mentioned mates and commissioned officers.
Not in the same sense as that in which I mean it. If any hon. Member has two sons of marked ability, of whom one enters the Army and the other the Navy, one of them, as we have seen in case after case, may rise to be colonel, or in the case of great men like Sir William Roberstson, to the very top of the tree, while in the Navy such a thing is absolutely impossible, and a great deal of bitterness is created by this fact. In 1653 an arrangement was made, by creating the rating of midshipman, to give an avenue of promotion from the lower deck. It is not being used for that purpose, but it was used in the case of Captain Cook, the great explorer, who was the son of a farm labourer, and rose from being a seaman to the high position which he occupied. I hope that the Admiralty will draw more freely from the lower deck, and devise means by which men can reach not only commissioned rank but the highest ranks as commissioned officers, and to the command of ships and fleets. Nobody would dream of opposing these proposals of my right hon. Friend, but we ought to have conclusive reasons for this great increase, and we have not got them. I think it legitimate to urge, in the presence of the Leader of the House, that the First Lord of the Admiralty ought to be here to present a big case like this. We have been honoured by his presence only on one occasion, when he made a great speech which made us desire all the more to hear him again. The only other occasion on which he has been present has been to receive the praise of the Prime Minister when the Prime Minister made his speech the other day. Of course, I disagree altogether with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Southampton (General Sir I. Philipps) about the Army being the primary force now. That, of course, is ridiculous. Every soldier who goes to work goes on the back of a sailor. But the want of the Army is man-power, and the want of the Navy is not man-power. Nothing can get over the fact that you are competing with the Army for man-power. Sir Auckland Geddes made a speech three weeks ago at the Aldwych Club in which he pointed out that the immense difficulty which we have is to get men. Here you are coming to obtain another 50,000 men at the very time that so many men are wanted for other purposes, and you will be asking for more still. I know that the Director of National Service has documents from the Admiralty, the War Office, and the Air Service asking for great increases of men. This is at the very time when the Army has to replace a terrible wastage of the Italian losses and to face the prospect of terrible losses now that the Germans have been able so largely to reinforce their Western front.
In the second place, you are competing in the industrial market against the shipbuilders, the very people who are going to bring the Americans over for the relief of our Army. That is one reason, I think, more than any other why the First Lord should have been here to-day. Now my right hon. Friend, or rather his predecessor, submitted Estimates which were framed last autumn and submitted to the, House on 28th February, for 400,000 men. Those estimates were framed before the United States of America came into this War, yet, with the United States of America now bringing assistance to us of personnel to the number of 371,000 men—which is the personnel given by the Secretary to the United States Navy in to-day's paper—having that huge assistance, you come to the House and ask for another 50,000 men. Surely, my right hon. Friend on the Front Opposition Bench is justified in asking you what are your reasons for wanting these extra men. I think I shall be within the rules of order if I give a quotation from the Minister of National Service, who said that his duty was, with regard to these Estimates, reliefs and in bringing back sick, and so forth. Why cannot he cut down this great mountain of expense involved in needless defensive arrangements, when we have the Grand Fleet which would prevent ships getting through the blockade in the North, while the Straits of Dover is an in-penetrable barrier? These are considerations which should be brought before the First Lord of the Admiralty. My right hon. Friend will probably refer to the speech of the First Lord in which he referred to the stupendous efforts of the Navy, stating that they steam in home waters alone 7,000,000 miles in a month, or 230,000 miles a day. To this has to be added all the steaming abroad of our Allies and our own ships. I know the stupendous effort of the Navy, but it is in the main a great scheme of stupendous effort for the defence of the country against about fifty German submarines manned by 2,000 men, for there are not more than fifty submarines operating at a time. It is germane to the subject to say that the whole boast in Germany in every article and speech is as to the success of these U-boats, and you could not have a greater testimony to the success of the U-boats than to say that these hundreds of thousands of men belonging to the British and Allied Navies are employed on a gigantic dispersed defensive to counter the efforts of some fifty German submarines with crews of about 2,000 men. To say that this dispersed defensive is the only possible system is practically to say that the Board of Admiralty has come forward and proclaimed that it is bankrupt of all strategy.
The observation which I made just now appears to have been misunderstood, and perhaps the House will permit me to say that I never suggested that the Navy was subsidiary to the Army: what I did suggest was that as regards the requirements for men, in my view, the requirements of the Navy are subsidiary to those of the Army. The Navy always gets—and very properly gets—all that it asks for; but I should like to have heard from my right hon. Friend opposite that some of these men were intended to increase the number of the Naval Air Service. Under the Air Forces Act they are included in the strength of His Majesty's Fleet, under Vote A. If these 50,000 were intended to increase the Royal Naval Air Service, I should have no criticism to offer whatever. This a branch of His Majesty's Forces which must be increased, and certainly will be increased. I hope that the naval branch of the Air Service will be increased equally with the military branch. I cannot now go into the question of man-power, but it must disturb those who are following the position on the Western Front, and what has happened in Russia, to find that the Navy at this time is asking for such a large increase of men, an increase which would be invaluable to the Army at the present time, and which, I submit, unless it be for the Air Forces, cannot be an absolute necessity for the Navy. We have the large Navies of the United States, France, and Italy, to fall back upon, and we want to see the fullest use made of the power which we have already. To diminish the man-power by such a large number as 50,000, unless it be for the Air Forces, seems to me a great mistake at this time. No man can be spared at the present time, and all that can be obtained are required for the military purpose. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman is only going to ask for men up to 50,000, as he said, and that he will work up to that number very slowly indeed.
I only rise to enter a protest against the tone which underlies the speeches of hon. and right hon. Members who have last addressed the House. Of all the cases of straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel I ever heard, I think those speeches are the worst. The Admiralty's demand is for 50,000 men for a year for the Navy. We are all aware that there is a very serious deficiency, and that a very serious strain upon the man-power of the country, but I really think, however, that it is somewhat unreasonable and unwise to make any protest with regard to the increase of the Navy from that point of view. If the Army had confined itself to demanding an increase per month, of double the amount which the Navy asks for a year, there would have been no strain whatever upon the man-power of this country. I think that, under the circumstances, and considering the overwhelming importance of maintaining the Navy in full strength, it is hardly wise for us to enter any protest against whatever demands the Navy may make upon us for men, because their demand on us for men is one which is quite easy for us to meet, and it is one which is out of all proportion to the demands which are made for the Army, and it is only the demands for the Army which cause any difficulty. I think we can rely on the Admiralty taking full precautions that the men will be properly used. On the details of that part of the subject I should not be in order to dwell upon them; I should, however, like to enter my protest against any idea whatever being entertained that the people of this country either have any desire to check any demand of the Navy for men, or that it would be wise in any degree whatever to think of doing anything of the kind.
If I confined myself solely to the Supplementary Estimate it was because of my respect for the Rules of the House, and if I should have to go beyond those Rules in any way it is to meet the questions of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen. My right hon. Friend (Mr. George Lambert) asked the reasons of this demand. He was a Civil Lord of the Admiralty for a great many years, and nobody knows better than he that our system has been that when we reach the maximum number of men allowed in one year, it is our duty to come to Parliament and apply for a further authorisation to increase the force to a higher figure. We have now reached the maximum number, and we come to the House for a further authorisation. As I have stated, it does not follow that we shall take the whole number at once, but we will work up to it. My right hon. Friend rather pooh-poohed that; but let me take 1914–15, the maximum in that year was 250,000. We started the year with that number, and we came to the House twice in that year with a Supplementary Estimate for men, and we got them. At the close of the year we obtained an authorisation for 350,000 men, and we began the next year with that number, and the number for 1916–17 is 400,000. We began the financial year with 400,000, and it was not until we reached that 400,000 that we came for authorisation to obtain another 50,000 men, though it does not follow that they will all be taken at once.
6.0 P.M.
My right hon. Friend made an attack upon Admiralty policy and on what he called the system of passive blockade. Such a discussion could not possibly arise on this Supplementary Estimate. The place for that, apart from the Vote of Credit, is Vote 12, a Vote on which you can raise Admiralty policy of any kind. My right hon. Friend said just now, "Oh, this will mean that you will waste these men, and as man-power is so vital in other directions, you ought to be more careful to see that the man-power of the nation is utilised to its utmost capacity in the right place and at the right time." Take the suggestion of waste. I have stated that we have come twice in one year and twice in the year preceding, and that we had introduced what I described as the system of deferred entries. Men have not been asked under that system to give up their occupations for entrance to the Royal Navy. For instance, we have set aside fishermen, and we have allowed them to remain at their occupation, and said, "We will not take you until we want to bring you down to train you for admission to the Reserve." That system continues. Take the other skilled craftsmen, such as fitters, moulders, turners, men of enormous importance to shipbuilding, whether battleship or merchant shipbuilding. Under the system of deferred entry our aim is to keep those men at their civil occupations as long as we can, because we know how vital it is that we should not call them up until the moment arrives when they must begin their naval training. I should think that the system of deferred entry alone was a reply in advance to the suggestion that we were using man power wastefully. We have reached our authorisation, and we come to Parliament and say, we want Parliamentary sanction for another authorisation to take the men as and when we want them. As regards the national shipyards, my right hon. Friend congratulated me on being an old Parliamentary hand with some knowledge of procedure, but may I say that I am full of admiration at the way he introduced a matter which he knows is relevant to Vote 8 of the Navy Estimates, that is, the shipbuilding vote, and not at all relevant to Vote A.
May I explain that I introduced the question of the national shipyards as an illustration to show Admiralty waste of man-power?
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the ingenuity with which he did so. He knows that the subject has nothing to do with this Vote and should be raised on Vote 8 or on the Vote of Credit. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East Antrim (General M'Calmont) raised some questions about mercantile marine ratings, who under T 124 were mine-sweepers and employed on other work. They are not on Vote 8. They are giving their services and are paid for out of Vote 1, and therefore it would not be in order to discuss the subject here. There are one or two questions which are of importance in regard to these men, particularly as to delay in getting separation allowances for their wives and also as to the question of their pensions. Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put a question down as the details are before me and I am dealing with the matter.
I have done so for Wednesday.
I hope I may be able to give a reply then. The hon. and gallant Member also asked me whether certain probationers of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve who have been demobilised and go back to enter as temporary surgeons get seniority in respect of the probationary service. It does count as part of the qualifying period they are bound to go through. But again if he will put a question on the Paper I will give him the precise facts.
I want to be quite clear on this point. The minesweepers I understand are not included in the 450,000.
I do not think so, If they are T 124 cases they are not, but perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will put a question on the subject. I am very sorry that my hon. and gallant Friend stated that no mention had been made of promotion in the Royal Navy to commissioned rank. What did I say, I said that as regards officers the chief method of recruiting is from the preparatory and public schools with training at the Royal Naval Colleges, and that additional numbers hare been obtained by promotion from the lower deck to acting mate, and by the entry into the Royal Naval Reserve officers from the mercantile marine, and by the entry and training of Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers for sea service. I am sorry if through inadvertence it is suggested that we are at all adverse to satisfying, as far as the Service can possibly do, the proper aspirations of the lower deck to receive promotion. As far as I am concerned, I wish them all the success that they are justified in looking forward to, and I cordially support the claims of the Royal Navy to promotion.
There is nothing to prevent men being promoted?
Certainly not. In recent years we have largely increased the promotions in the Royal Navy. The hon. and gallant Member for Southampton (Sir I. Philipps) said why did not the First Lord come down and introduce this Estimate for additional men. The First Lord recognised the narrow limits upon which this Supplemental Estimate is framed, and thought that the House would wish him to discuss the vital question of new tonnage for the merchant service, and that an opportunity might offer to him to do that on the Vote of Credit, and if such opportunity does offer it is his intention and desire to deal with that subject particularly from the point of view of national shipyards.
Will my right hon. Friend suggest to him to take the opportunity?
Subject to the Speaker calling on him, he will do so, and make a statement on the question of national shipyards and the whole question of merchant shipping tonnage.
Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves this subject, will he tell us whether any of the 50,000 men now being asked for will be utilised for the national shipyards?
I do not think so. It might quite exceptionally be the case that some naval rating might be attached for some particular purpose of a very exceptional character, but the national shipyards will be on Vote 8, and these men are on Votes A and 3; these men might be called on for special duty, but as a whole they are for the Navy and not for the shipyards. The only other point is the question of the Royal Naval Air Service. Certainly we include for the Royal Naval Air Service some of the men in this new authorisation. We are carrying on until the transfer is made, and then I presume it will be the duty of the Air Minister.
They are included in She numbers.
Yes; up to the transfer we are taking account of what the demands are likely to be pending the transfer, and after that I presume it will be the duty of the Air Minister to come and ask for a Vote?
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolution to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Chequers Estate Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
In doing so I have the satisfaction of knowing that in connection with it there is only one opinion throughout the whole of the House of Commons. We are here to carry out an ideal, which I happen to know is not a new one, in the case of my hon. and gallant Friend (Col. Sir Arthur Lee). I happened to be in this House more than five years ago when he mentioned to me that he contemplated handing over this house for the nation, and it seemed to me to be an ideal which was well worth carrying out. As the House knows, the Prime Minister may or may not be a man possessed of private means. If he should have to depend entirely on his salary, then with the Income Tax at the rate at which it is, it is obvious that it would be a great convenience to such a Prime Minister to know that he had a country house to which he could have access and which would not add to his expenditure In another sense I believe it is a good thing. Downing Street is the official residence of the Prime Minister, and this is simply to give an official country residence to the Prime Minister also. I am sure it is a great advantage in any case to have such a place of residence whenever the Prime Minister chooses to avail himself of having a rest, which is not possible, as everyone connected with it knows, so long as he is stationed in Downing Street. I have been asked specially by the hon. Gentleman who has made this gift, and handed this property over to the nation, to use no words of praise in connection with it. I am sure the House will all sympathise with his having that objection. I am going to obey his instructions. At the same time I think we are bound to feel that the gift itself is a very generous one, that the idea which underlies it is a good one, and I am perfectly certain that no Member of the House will not—I will not say do anything he can to smooth the passage of this Bill—but who will not recognise the spirit in which this gift has been made to the nation, and will not be prepared in everyway to join with us in expressing our gratitude to my hon. Friend and Lady Lee for having made this generous gift of "Chequers."
I should like to join with my right hon. Friend in expressing our appreciation of the generosity of our right hon. colleague and Lady Lee for the gift which they have made of "Chequers" for the use of the Prime Minister. All of us who, in office, have seen Prime Ministers at work realise that the severe and continuous strain is not even relaxed during Saturdays and Sundays so long as they reside in Downing Street. Although the week-end habit is a somewhat recent creation, the necessity for relief for our Prime Ministers is greater now than ever it was. The generous donors of "Chequers" have had some knowledge of the strain under which our Ministers now labour, and they have shown not only their generosity, but their humane sense, in making a gift to the nation which in itself will have direct personal benefit to those who bear the heaviest strain in our Government. I should not like this occasion to pass without saying how fully we all appreciate the fine sense which has been shown by Lady Lee and her husband in making this gift. Might I also add how deeply we all appreciate the excellent taste which they have shown in the gift of one of the most beautiful country houses in Europe, and in maintaining its historical character, which gives it an especial value to those who will occupy it in the future. "Chequers" is one of the great monuments of the past. It carries our memories back generations, nay, centuries Those who live in it in the future will undoubtedly catch some of the spirit of the great men who have occupied the house in the past. If they do nothing more than to catch something of the generous spirit which has prompted the gift of Lady Lee and her husband that will, in itself, be some gain to the State. I gladly join in the thanks expressed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I should like to say that had the late Prime Minister been in London to-day it was his intention to say how fully he appreciated the motives which prompted this gift, and to say that, for his part, he realised how valuable it would be in the future.
I rather regret that something of this sort has not been done before. I read in the Schedule of the Bill these words:
"To the revolutionary statesmen the antiquity and calm tenacity of 'Chequers' and its annals might suggest some saving virtues in the continuity of English history and exercise a check upon too hasty upheavals, whilst even the most reactionary could scarcely be insensible to the spirit of human freedom which permeates the countryside of Hampden, Burke, and Milton.…
Apart from these more subtle influences the better the health of our rulers the more sanely will they rule."
Therefore, I am justified in regretting that something of this sort has not taken place earlier, so that our present rulers might have had the benefit of it.
Before this measure is passed, I would like to ask whether the gift is to have immediate effect, or the beneficial interest mentioned in the Bill is likely to apply during the lifetime of the donor and his wife? It seems to me that though the gift is ostensibly now, they will still have a hand on it, and that until the beneficial interest is reduced the Government or the nation will not have the advantage of the gift. Might I also ask whether it is the intention of the Government to accept the gift promptly, and whether Ministers have arranged that they will take advantage of the opportunities given to them to live in this palatial establishment?
The Bill itself shows the exact terms on which the gift is made. Those who have given the gift have a right to remain in possession during their lifetime. I really do not think that it would be other than ungenerous to inquire closely into when they intend to give up occupation. I have not asked about that, but I presume it must depend upon circumstances which we do not know. At all events, this is certain, that by giving the gift in this form it is not left to something which may or may not be attainable at their death, but something which is given to the nation now, and will come into our possession at the death of the generous donors.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into Committee on the "Bill."—[ Colonel Craig .]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
National Insurance (Unemployment) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
This Bill is very small in character. It will be remembered that last year a Bill was passed to extend the scheme of compulsory insurance to munition workers and a number of trades specified in the first Schedule of the Bill. Under this extended scheme contributions from employers and workpeople will be payable for such a period as the Minister of Labour may determine, not being longer than five years from the 4th September last, or three years after the end of the War, whichever is the longer. Since the passage of this Bill through this House it has been represented to my predecessor, as to myself, that there are certain trades specified in the Schedule to which the Act has been made applicable which already have provision for employment better than that provided in the Bill, and that the character of certain trades is such that unemployment is very small, and therefore that these parties ought not to be included within the scope of the scheme. The particular trade that I have in mind is the boot and shoe trade. Both employers and workpeople have combined for the purpose of making representations to us. They have proved to our satisfaction that the conditions under which the trade is operated does make it unnecessary for that trade to be included within the scheme of State insurance. As a matter of fact, the data that they have been able to show us exhibits the fact that unemployment is small in that trade, be- cause during the depressed periods men and women are not discharged, but a general system of short time is worked. Moreover, the particular trade union consisting of the boot and shoe operatives have in existence a very good scheme of provision against unemployment, and therefore the trade as a whole being united in this matter, were able to produce satisfactory evidence that it is unnecessary to include them in the scope of State insurance. They have other schemes in existence quite as good, if not better, than that provided by the State.
That is the first point of urgency with which we desire to deal, because it will be seen that so long as the trade labours under a doubt as to whether they are to be compelled, employers and workpeople, to pay contributions, a good deal of un-settlement is felt naturally. It is very desirable before the end of the year that this doubt should be resolved. It is because of this I am asking the House to confer this power upon the Minstry which for the time being I happen to represent. The only other point is that under the original Act of 1911, as hon. Members are aware, benefit is confined to one week's out-of-work benefit for every five weeks' contribution paid. In our scheme we feel that it may be desirable to have the power to vary that, especially in regard to the extended Bill and its limited duration—that is to say, if experience shows we can pay out a larger sum per week or a larger number of weeks' benefit, we will do so. The House will have the safeguard in the knowledge that no variation will take place without the sanction of the Treasury. These are the only two points presented in the measure with which it was, perhaps, necessary to deal, and I ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.— [ Colonel Craig .]
Navy and Army Expenditure, 1915–16
Committee to consider the surpluses and deficits upon Navy and Army Grants for 1915–16 and the application of sur- pluses to meet expenditure not provided for in the Grants for that year—Tomorrow.—[ Lord E. Talbot .]
That the Appropriation Accounts for the Navy and Army Departments which were presented upon the 28th February and 1st March last be referred to the Committee.—[ Lord E. Talbot .]
National Insurance (Unemployment) [Money]
Committee to consider of authorising the payment out of moneys, to be provided by Parliament, of such additional sums as may be required for the purposes of any Act of the present Session, to amend the National Insurance (Unemployment) Acts, 1911 to 1916, with respect to the proportion to be borne by the amount of unemployment benefit to the number of contributions paid—( King's recommendation signified ).—To-morrow.—[ Lord E. Talbot .]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Half after Six o'clock.