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Commons Chamber

Volume 100: debated on Tuesday 11 December 1917

House of Commons

Tuesday, December 11, 1917

Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865

Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 27th November, 1917, approving a Memorial of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty made under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Teble.

MILITARY SERVICE (AGREEMENT WITH ITALY) (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 18, 1917)

Copy presented of Agreement between the United Kingdom and Italy respecting liability to Military Service of British Subjects in Italy and Italian Subjects in Great Britain [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Ministry of Food

Copies presented of Cream Order, 1917, Bacon, Hams, and Lard (Distribution) Order, 1917, Pigs (Maximum Prices) Order, 1917, Manufacture of Flour and Bread Order (No. 2), 1917, Intoxicating Liquor (Output and Delivery) Order (No. 4), 1917, Dried Fruits (Restriction) Order, 1917, Seeds, Nuts, and Kernels (Requisition) Order, 1917, and Coffee (Retail Prices) Order, 1917, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Telegrams (Delivery to Soldiers)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that a telegram addressed to Private Jones, Capel Gwyn, Festiniog, was not delivered, and in consequence an innocent soldier was punished, the War Office will in future order that no soldier, declaring he has not received notice to return to duty, shall be punished until the communication intended for him and upon which the charge is based shall be proved to have been delivered?

If Private Jones had exercised his right to be tried by court-martial under Section 46 of the Army Act he could not have been convicted. In the circumstances the necessity for issuing an order as suggested does not arise.

Military Service

Royal Welsh Fusiliers

asked the Under - Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the objection of the men who have served in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers at the front to be deprived of the badge of that regiment on being placed in the Labour Battalion, he can see his way to allow them to retain the badge as evidence of their connection with their old regiment?

Soldiers wear the badges of the unit to which they belong, for identification and for administrative purposes. The exigencies of the Service necessitate many transfers, and it is impracticable to provide for an exception in the case of men transferred from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers to other corps.

Registered Dentists

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the British Dental Association has communicated with the Dental Service Committee of the Local Government Board and informed them that in their opinion the action of tribunals in seeking to impose upon registered dentists conditional exemption on joining the Volunteer Training Corps is ultra vires ; and will he state to the tribunals whether that is so or not, so that they may know what to do in this matter?

My right hon. Friend has received representations on the subject from the Dental Service Committee, which he gathers were based upon suggestions from the British Dental Association. The imposition of a condition that an exempted man must join the Volunteer Force is not rendered ultra vires by his being a registered dentist, but such a condition should not be imposed unless it is clear that the man can spare the time and that it is in the national interest. Having regard to the demand for dental service, it would generally be better that, where possible and reasonable, any condition in the case of exempted registered dentists should take the form of requiring such additional dental service as may be recommended by the Dental Service Committee.

Majors-General Displaced (Re-Employment)

asked what steps have been taken to find re-employment for the major-generals who have been displaced from their commands to make room for tired generals sent back from France?

There have been no opportunities up to the present, but they will be considered as opportunities offer.

Has not the same answer been given to me month after month? Can the hon. Gentleman say when opportunity will occur of finding for these efficient generals employment to room for tired generals sent back from deprived so unjustly?

My hon. Friend must know that it is proportionately more difficult to replace a major-general than an ordinary regimental officer.

But it is not fair to send home from the front major-generals on the reserve list to replace efficient generals on the active list in this country.

I do not think that it would be quite right to get rid of a major-general performing efficient work at home in order to give his place to another.

Hay Supply (Dublin)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will issue immediate instructions to the military authorities in Dublin to release sufficient hay for Dublin requirements; if he is aware that the county Dublin farmers deny the statement that they are withholding supplies from the market and state that they only hold sufficient for their own requirements and that the quantity in their possession is over-estimated by the military; if he will state the Government's requirements; and, if it is possible to meet them without seriously affecting the Dublin milk supply, if he will allow farmers to bring hay to the Dublin market within a thirty mile radius?

I can add nothing to the answer which I gave the hon. Member on the 3rd December. It is not considered desirable to disclose the Government's requirements.

Regimental Bands

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to an Army Council Instruction, recently issued, forbidding bands to all units except one to each regiment of Cavalry, one to the Special Reserve of each regiment of Infantry, and one to the depot of each regiment; is he aware that the bands of Reserve training battalions and Territorial battalions are now composed of men not fit for active service who only play in the band as an addition to their ordinary work; that these bands cost the country nothing; and that having such a band does much to relieve the monotony of camp life and to keep the men together after their work is over; and will the Army Council reconsider their decision?

War Services (Decorations)

asked whether the 1914 star will be granted to those troops which were engaged in operations in Togoland and East Africa prior to 20th November; and, if not, whether some other recognition can be considered in this connection?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The services of the troops engaged in the operations referred to will be recognised by the award of the same commemorative medal as may be sanctioned for services in any of the other theatres of war.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office why the mother of Cyclist Reginald M. Williams, No. 52916, 15th Platoon, D Company, 2/1st N.C.B., Butterwick Camp, Boston, received between 10th January, 1917, and 14th August this year neither allotment nor allowance on her son's account; why since 14th August the mother has only received the 3s. 6d. deducted from her son's wages and no Government allowance; whether the mother has written his Department five times and received nothing but empty acknowledgments; whether he is aware that this man's mother is in want; and will he name a date when he can undertake to make a definite statement on this case?

I have ascertained that the allowance has now been paid. The case of this soldier, when recalled from Army Reserve Class W, was incorrectly dealt with, and there has since been great difficulty in tracing the claim. The delay is very much regretted.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he has received a letter from the pensions sub-committee of Houghton-le-Spring, county Durham, setting forth what appears to the members of the above the hardship and injustice suffered by parents of soldiers who on enlistment were apprentices or in special occupations not giving high wages, and who in consequence receive no allowance in addition to soldiers' allotment; and, if so, what remedy is proposed?

I am aware that the present Regulation, which only gives an allowance in addition to allotment in circumstances set forth by the hon. Member when there is hardship, is unsatisfactory and an alteration will, I hope, shortly be enacted.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the new scale of pay o soldiers and their dependants will in any way benefit the parents of soldiers who were apprentices or in occupations which did not provide high wages at enlistment, yet of prospective high income, on account of which either very small dependence allowance or none followed; if the new scale of value benefits, how, and, if not, why, seeing that continued war is causing such extreme hardship and, in a comparative sense, injustice?

The new scale of pay for soldiers recently announced does not directly affect the Army allowances to families or dependants; but as the soldier will have more pay it will be within his power to make or increase voluntary allotments to his relatives.

What is the position of the man who is not an apprentice—will he not have more money than the man who is an apprentice?

May I ask if he thinks that really covers the great difference between parents of apprentices and others who were earning wages at that time, and is he aware this disparity between the families of one class and another is causing a great deal of dissatisfaction?

I quite realise that, and the Government is meeting it, as has just been announced by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions, by means of a special allowance to deal with the case of apprentices.

It is not a question of pensions; it is a question of separation allowances, or, rather, for dependants.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say, if the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions is carried out, will the apprentices' voluntary allotment of 3s. 6d. then be carried by the Government?

Yes; that is provided for in the instructions issued with the new Warrant.

Shipping Delays ("Oweenee")

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller on what date the British sailing vessel "Oweenee" loaded her cargo of coal; if she is still lying in harbour; how long she has been lying in harbour; for what country this cargo of coal was intended; and what it is proposed to do with this coal?

When I say that this vessel is owned and controlled by the Russian Government my hon. Friend will, I am sure, understand that I do not feel at liberty to give the particulars for which he asks.

Has not this ship been lying for months in harbour, blocking the harbour?

Coal Freights ((Italy)

asked why neutral and Allied steamers have been permitted to charge rates of freight on coal from the United Kingdom to Italy to the extent of 185s. per ton, while freight by British-requisitioned steamers has not been more than 17s. 6d. per ton and in some cases, as officially admitted, nil freight per ton; and whether freights by these neutral and Allied steamers will be controlled, seeing that they require to obtain their bunker coal in Great Britain?

It is not practicable to exercise any greater measure of control over the freights of neutral steamers than is at present enforced. I am not aware of any Allied steamer in this trade having been fixed at 185s. In so far as this figure applies to neutral ships, it contains a very large element of war risk which is absent from the British rate quoted by the hon. Member.

Will the Government not take a leaf out of the book of the American Government in dealing with these neutral Governments?

We are working with the American Government in this particular matter.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the American Government has reduced rates all round?

The American Government is acting with us in this particular matter.

Food Supplies

Meat

asked (1) what facilities there are for discharging fresh meat at Southampton; and what accommodation there is at that port for cold storage of fresh meat; and (2) what facilities there are for discharging fresh meat at Plymouth; and what accommodation there is at that port for cold storage of fresh meat?

I have been asked to reply. I assume that the hon. Member refers to frozen or chilled meat and not to fresh meat. There are good facilities for discharging meat at Southampton and considerable cold storage accommodation. Steps are being taken to improve the discharging facilities and cold storage accommodation at Plymouth. It is not in the public interest to publish the cubic capacity of the cold storage available at particular ports.

asked what facilities there are for discharging fresh meat at Havre; and what accommodation there is at that port for cold storage of fresh meat?

I fear that I cannot make myself responsible for giving information in regard to matters under the control of an Allied Government. I, of course, know the capacity of the British Army frozen meat store at Havre, but it is obviously not in the national interest to disclose much information.

Butter

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether Ireland is to participate in the distribution of butter imported from the Dominions; if he will state the quantity purchased from Australia, New Zealand, and the Argentine; and, if Ireland is not to participate in these purchases, will the export of Irish butter be prohibited?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. Ireland can satisfy her requirements from her own production, and thus economise transport. I have already stated the quantities of butter purchased from Australia and New Zealand; the quantity purchased from the Argentine is 8,370 tons. As regards the last part of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him last Friday by the Chief Secretary for Ireland.

May I ask whether, in point of fact, there is any prohibition of the export of butter from Ireland?

When it is deemed that food produced in Ireland is required for Irish consumption there is.

Does that mean that persons ordinarily resident in Ireland who come to England are unable to obtain supplies from Ireland by post or otherwise?

Irishmen resident temporarily in this country will have to take their share of what is going in this country.

asked what is the procedure adopted for releasing consignments of butter for distribution to retailers; and what action it is necessary for retailers to take who are unable to get any deliveries whatsoever?

Under the Butter Distribution Scheme for releasing supplies of imported butter purchased by the Ministry of Food, applications for butter are made by retailers through their usual wholesalers or importers, and allotments are made in proportion to their requirements in 1916. The first pro rata distribution was made on the 5th instant, and in the course of this week all applicants should have received their respective shares.

Food Queues

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (1) whether he knows that numbers of women and children have contracted bronchitis and other illnesses, and that some have died, as a result of having to stand for hours in food queues under the present weather conditions; whether he is aware that the evil is much aggravated by the fact that numbers of shops remain closed all day and open for a few hours at night, and that certain multiple shopkeepers by these methods are helping to inflate prices whilst inflicting illness and hardship on those who desire to purchase tea, margarine, sugar, and other commodities; and whether steps wall now be taken by improved organisation to render the queues unnecessary; and (2) whether he is aware that in Sheffield numbers of women, among them many wives of soldiers and munition workers, have frequently to spend several hours a day in food queues in the hope of obtaining supplies; that the inequalities of the present arrangements are causing dissatisfaction; and what he proposes to do?

As I have already stated, the Food Controller is fully conscious of the difficulties caused by the present scarcity of certain foodstuffs. Schemes are being put into force as rapidly as possible to secure a better local distribution of butter, bacon, and other commodities, and these measures will, it is hoped, remedy the more serious inequalities at present existing. In view, however, of the restricted imports, it is, of course, impossible to provide the quantities which people have been accustomed to consume in normal times. The stocks of food at Sheffield have been made the subject of inquiry.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some of the women working in munitions factories all day find it impossible at night to obtain the supplies of goods they need? In view of that, is it not time that we had a definite system of rationing, and a registration of customers, which would ensure that everyone got his share and no more than his share?

The last part of the question is too large for me to answer in a supplementary reply, but I would welcome the opportunity to deal with it. As to the munition workers' difficulty, that is being taken into account in the schemes which my reply has indicated are now in hand

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether there is any butter to distribute; if so, where it is?

Can the hon. Gentleman give the House any indication as to when these schemes are likely to be put into operation?

Meantime, can my hon. Friend take steps in regard to these queues to prevent people buying a great deal more food than they require and retailing it at high prices to people in poorer localities?

Our experience indicates that purchasers are not able to spend money on certain articles of food which they require and that shopkeepers are not selling unduly to individual customers.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in one case recently one person in one of these queues was found with 7lbs. of tea in her possession?

Will the hon. Gentleman say when an opportunity is going to be given to this House to discuss the whole question of food control?

Bacon

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he will give the names of the Advisory Committee that approved of the new Bacon Order?

I am sending the hon. Member a list of the members of the Bacon Advisory Committee. I may state that while the suggestions and criticisms of this Committee have always been carefully considered they must not be taken to have approved all details of the new Order, and the responsibility for the Order rests with the Food Controller.

Will the hon. Gentleman publish the names of this Committee? Has the attention of the hon. Gentleman been called to the fact that in the case of bacon and ham, as in most other articles which have been dealt with by these Orders, the immediate result is a scarcity and a threatened famine?

It was simply because it was a lengthy list that I have not read out the names. There is no objection to their publication. I shall be glad to supply any hon. Member with a copy.

asked whether the new Order respecting bacon is framed on the same lines as the Orders that apply to butter and cheese, both of which ensure equality of price to all consumers; and whether the Bacon Order was submitted to or approved of by any trade association in the United Kingdom?

The bacon, ham, and lard (Provisional Prices) Order, 1917, necessarily differs from the Orders fixing prices for butter and cheese. While dairy produce reaches the consumer in substantially the same state as that in which it leaves the port or factory, bacon is subjected to many different processes, each causing a different wastage, and is sold to the consumer in many different forms. Provision for these variations had to be made in the Order. The Order was framed in consultation with representative committees of the wholesale and retail trade, but they must not be taken to have approved every detail.

Is the Government aware that the system of distribution set forth in the Order means that the working class, the poorest, have to pay a great deal more for their bacon—if they can get it!—than the richer people?

No class can reap an advantage over either because of the effects of the Order.

Elevators

asked how many public river or dockside elevators there are in this country and where are they situated; how many of these are provided with cleaning and drying plant, such as are known in Canada as hospital elevators; and what is the size and capacity of each?

It is not desirable to state the number, capacity, or situation of grain silos in this country. The system of hospital elevators has never been found necessary here. If the hon. and gallant Member desires further information I shall be happy to arrange for him to discuss the mater with the Chairman of the Storage Committee of the Royal Commission on Wheat Supplies.

Sugar

asked why Messrs. Hill and Son, Waterford, have cut off the supply of sugar due to Mr. M. J. Stephenson, Adamstown, since the 17th October last, thereby causing distress amongst the poor of Adamstown, who are ten miles away from any town?

I am causing inquiries to be made, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

Voluntary Rations (Approximate Cost)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can state the weekly approximate cost at present rates of the food necessary for a man, woman, and child, respectively, based on the suggested voluntary rations?

I have been asked to reply. Taking the average of the different categories, the weekly approximate cost of the food included in the voluntary ration may be estimated as follows: For a man, 9s. 9½d.; for a woman, 8s. 3½d.; for a child, 7s.

Does that mean that these prices include not only the rations, but also other necessaries and indeed essential foods?

No. My hon. Friend will find that my reply answers precisely the terms of the question which he put tome.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the cost which he has just given for a woman and child is 15s. 6d., whereas the separation allowance is only 19s. 6d., which leaves only 4s. for rent, clothing, and other things?

That may be true; but if my hon. Friend will look at my reply, he will see that it relates strictly to the question put to me.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he has given figures for a rations allowance which is less than the ordinary allowance, and we are told that the separation allowance is sufficient to allow these people to live?

In order to make the reply more valuable, will the hon. Gentleman supplement it by giving the average cost of living, including the rations, for these three cases?

Questions

Standard Ships

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller how many standard vessels have been completed and started on voyage up to 30th November; and will he give their respective gross register tonnage and state how many have been sunk?

The number of standard steamers completed and started on voyage up to 30th November was seven, their respective gross register tonnage being 5,173, 5,167, 5,170, 5,204, 5,174, 5,170, 5,166—total, 47,224 tons gross. One vessel has been sunk, her gross register being 5,175 tons. As I have before explained, however, the answer to such a question necessarily gives partial and therefore misleading information. It may be well to add, therefore, that the new tonnage completed in November was very much greater than the tonnage of standard ships completed and was within measurable distance of the losses by enemy attack.

Are we to understand that it is never the policy of the Government to give partial and misleading information?

Yes. If the answer which I have given is read carefully, it will be found to contain information which is not only complete, but of a satisfactory kind.

Can the hon. Gentleman give us any assurance that we are building as fast as ships are being sunk?

What I said here is that the new tonnage completed in November is very much greater than the tonnage of standard ships, and comes within measurable distance of the losses by enemy action.

After all this talk about standard ships, the amount is only about 47,000 tons?

No. As the hon. Member must know, a very considerable number of these ships is approaching completion, and if he repeats his question in the course of a month or two he will find that the number completed will be considerably increased.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what he means by "within measurable distance"—so as not to give incomplete or partial information?

It is impossible to give precise figures, for reasons which have been stated in this House. The answer to the question conveyed the truth, which is that in the month just completed the gains by shipbuilding and purchase come within a close distance of the losses by enemy attack.

Steamship "Theseus."

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether the steamer "Theseus," 8,500 tons dead-weight and 14 knots speed, had been carrying horses for many months prior to August last; whether in that month all the horse fittings, except kicking boards and fore and afters, were dismantled and the vessel loaded with a cargo of coal from Cardiff to Bizerta, where discharge was completed on 5th October; whether the "Theseus" was sent to Marseilles, where she arrived on 10th October, and where she remained until 2nd December, refitting for the carriage of horses; and, if so, whether he will explain why this was the best use to which this steamer could be put?

My right hon. Friend has been misinformed. Prior to August last the "Theseus" had carried horses only on the upper deck. Only such of the fittings as interfered with the loading of cargo were removed, and these were replaceable without difficulty or delay. Her complete fitting out as a horse ship at Marseilles, while it took longer than would have been necessary in this country, involved no loss of time in view of the use to which the vessel was to be put, and saved the ship from an element of war risk.

Have not the circumstances set forth in this question frequently occurred in other cases?

The hon. Member is misinformed. The circumstances in this case did not occur in other cases.

Prisoners of War

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) whether his attention has been called to the fact that no food parcels addressed to non-commissioned officer prisoners at Hameln, Germany, have been delivered since 10th October; that they have not been allowed to post letters for three weeks because of the refusal of the noncommissioned officers to work outside the camp; and whether he will have an inquiry made into the matter?

We have had information to show that the German authorities at Hameln Camp endeavoured to compel British noncommissioned officers attached to that camp to perform work which they should not be required to do, but I am not aware that parcels and letters are now being withheld as stated in the question. I my hon. Friend will forward to the Prisoners of War Department the information he possesses on the subject, I am sure immediate inquiry will be made.

asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) whether his attention has been called to the fact that the adopted son, sixteen years of age, of Captain A. P. Smith, of the steamer "Otaki," which on 10th March, 1917, attacked the German rover ship "Moewe," set her on fire, and drove her into her own port, thus saving many lives and much shipping, was on that occasion taken prisoner by the Germans; and whether any effort has been made, or will be made, to exchange this boy?

Negotiations are proceeding with the German Government for the exchange of an equal number of British and German ships' boys. We have asked for Alfred Broomfield Clulee, who is assumed to be the boy referred to to be included in the exchange.

London Workhouse Infirmaries (Dietaries)

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware of the severity with which the inmates of some of the London workhouse infirmaries are being rationed, and that many of them for months have been in a constant state of hunger; whether he knows that in certain infirmaries they get tea at four in the afternoon, the food consisting of two comparatively thin rounds of bread and margarine, and have nothing to eat until seven next morning, when again there is only a couple of rounds of bread and margarine, and that some of the inmates feel so faint in the morning that they can scarcely stand; and whether he will cause full investigation to be made with a view to fixing uniform and humane conditions?

The medical officers of the institutions are responsible for the feeding of the sick and infirm inmates, and these persons are not subject to the Food Controller's scales imposed on the able-bodied inmates by the Local Government Board's directions. I have not heard of any instance of insufficient dietaries, but I will have inquiries made.

Ministry of Health

asked the President of the Local Government Board whether he is now in a position to make a statement regarding the proposed Ministry of Health; whether he proposes to introduce legislation and, if so, when; whether an agreed scheme has yet been reached; and what steps are being taken to this end?

I am sorry I cannot give any further reply than those which have already been given on this subject.

Is there any prospect of an agreed scheme being arrived at unless and until a further consultation of the various interests and Departments concerned has taken place?

Secret Sessions (Admission of Peers)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now announce that, having consulted Mr. Speaker, he intends to move a new Standing Order regulating the admission of Peers to Secret Sessions of this House; and, in that event, whether he will ask for reciprocal facilities when Secret Sessions are held in another place?

I have consulted Mr. Speaker, and think that the proposal is one which should be agreed to, and I will put down a Motion on some convenient day, in the hope it may pass without much discussion.

In reference to the last part of my question about reciprocal facilities for Secret Sessions in either place, will that be brought into the Resolution?

Certainly. My recollection is that the other House has already passed a Motion in favour of some such course.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is quite customary with the French Parliament?

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of giving the hon. Member for North Somerset all the privileges of the House of Lords?

I should not be inclined to recommend that method of depriving this House of the hon. Member's services.

Army Officers' Pensions

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the number of officers who have lost their private incomes during the War, the Government will reconsider the question of an increase in all officers' pensions?

Loss of private income owing to the War is not confined to officers, and though they, in common with all those who are risking their lives in the national cause, have a special claim upon our sympathy, I cannot adopt the course suggested.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of relieving officers from the heavy Income Tax?

That subject has been already discussed, and it is obvious that one cannot give the reasons for and against in reply to questions.

I have already considered it, and I do not think that it is practicable.

Does the reply not indicate the necessity of separation allowance being given in the case of junior officers?

Defence of the Realm Regulations

Glamorgan Cases

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the various police authorities of the country submit particulars of cases of alleged sedition under the Defence of the Realm Acts to either of the following different Government Departments with a view to securing sanction to prosecution, namely, the Foreign Office, the Home Secretary, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the competent military authority, the competent naval authority, and the secret service department of the Ministry of Munitions; whether particulars of cases, with original documents, sent from the constabulary of Glamorgan during the past two years have been mislaid; whether there is no single Department made responsible for the filing and preservation of particulars and documents in connection with such cases; and whether he will consider the advisability of either making a single Department responsible or of co-ordinating the work of the Departments for the purpose of sanctioning prosecutions for alleged seditious conduct under the Defence of the Realm Act?

I must answer the question on the Paper. It rests with the competent naval or military authorities to decide whether proceedings should be taken under Regulation 27, except in the case of offences by newspapers, when the Director of Public Prosecutions is the authority. Police authorities generally are well aware of this procedure, and I see no reason for making any change. I am not aware that any documents sent by the Chief Constable of Glamorgan have been mislaid.

asked the Home Secretary whether he has now made further inquiries, as promised, into the forty odd cases recommended for prosecution by the Glamorgan constabulary under the Defence of the Realm Act in which sanction has been withheld; and, if so, why sanction has been withheld in these cases?

I find on inquiry that all the cases referred to were carefully considered by the Departments concerned, and authority to prosecute was only withheld where it appeared that there was no likelihood of proceedings being successful.

Is it the fact that in a great number of cases authority was withheld till a later date because documents had been mislaid either by the Home Office or by the competent authority in London?

Are we to understand that in not one of these forty odd cases did prosecution take place?

Leaflets (Censorship)

asked the Home Secretary whether, under Regulation 27 c, a leaflet containing President Wilson's address to Congress would have to be submitted to the Censor before being issued?

International Free Trade League

asked whether the honorary secretary of the International Free Trade League, Mr. B. Zusman, produced to Detective Jayne, of Scotland Yard, a certified copy of his birth certificate, proving that that gentleman was born at Wolverhampton, Staffordshire, on 5th June, 1860; whether the detective made a copy of this certificate; and, if so, why a doubt on the subject of Mr. Zusman's nationality was suggested?

I am informed that this birth certificate was produced, and particulars noted in the ordinary course, and that no doubt on the subject of Mr. Zusman's nationality was suggested.

If these documents were produced, why did the Home Secretary make the suggestion?

asked whether at the offices of the International Free Trade League, of 28, Victoria Street, S.W., or at the residence of the honorary secretary thereof, Mr. B. Zusman, any documents or matter were found which reflected discredit on that gentleman; and, if so, what was the nature of these documents or matter?

I understand that the documents found related to the encouragement of trade with Germany after the War, and did not reflect any discredit on Mr. Zusman's personal character.

South Wales Allegations

asked the Attorney-General whether he has now had an opportunity to investigate the allegations made by the hon. Member for East Glamorgan that certain individuals in South Wales, whose names he was in a position to supply to the Law Officers of the Crown, were freely scattering from £15 to £40 a week, the money coming from tainted sources, for purposes of seditious propaganda; whether such information has been supplied to him, together with the names of the individuals concerned, either directly by the hon. Member for East Glamorgan or indirectly by the military authorities; and, seeing that the statements made reflected on the efficiency of his Department as well as the honour of certain British subjects, whether he intends to press the hon. Member to supply the facts on which he based the charges?

My hon. and learned Friend informed me in conversation that it was his intention to put certain questions to me with the object of elucidating some of the matters referred to in the question. He has not yet done so, and I am in the meantime without any information which will enable me to answer the points raised by the hon. Gentleman, which, however, do not, as suggested in the question, reflect upon the efficiency of my Department. The Attorney-General has no staff which enables him to institute local inquiries. His duty is to decide judicially and impartially upon materials placed before him whether a prosecution is required in the public interest.

Is it not a fact that the right authority before whom information should be placed as to any seditious offences under the Defence of the Realm Acts is the competent military authority of the War Office; and is it not a fact that a very large mass of information dealing with this very point, and certain other points associated with it, has been laid before that authority?

It must be obvious that I am not in a position to give my hon. and learned Friend any information as to what has been laid before the competent military authority. There are many matters which have to be laid before the competent military authority, but my hon. and learned Friend must permit me to remind him very plainly that the statement he made in this House was that the Law officers of the Crown had not done their duty.

May I ask whether the matters which have gone before the competent military authorities and the Home Office from the constabulary of Glamorganshire have not, in fact, been laid before the Director of Public Prosecutions, who is controlled by the right hon. Gentleman, and has he not excused himself in certain cases on the ground that documents have been mislaid?

I have not the slightest reason to suppose there is the slightest foundation whatever for the suggestion. My hon. and learned Friend spoke to me of these matters and made this suggestion in conversation some days ago. I pointed out to him it was the duty, under the Statute, for the Director of Public Prosecutions to act under my instructions, and I invited him to place before me materials which are the foundations of that suggestion. That was some four or five days ago, and he has made no communication to me in the interval to enable me to test his statement.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he desires that the information which, in fact, has been placed before the competent military authority at the War Office, should be placed in duplicate before him, or whether it will not, in the ordinary course, travel from the competent military authority to his Department?

I merely desired my hon. and learned Friend, inasmuch as, without previous communication to me, he reflected upon the discharge of my official duties, to place before me the materials on which he based his censures? He promised me he would do so, but he has not done so.

Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman came to me in the Outer Lobby and asked whether I had certain information, and did I not tell him that in fact it had been placed before the competent military authority, and I assumed that, in the ordinary course, it would come before his Department; and, further, does the right hon. Gentleman require any information of this character, which, in fact, has gone before any other authority exercising power under the Defence of the Realm Acts, to come before him in duplicate so as to enable him to answer questions in this House?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have myself addressed quite recently to the War Office a question as to whether information had been given to the competent military authority, and the reply was that no information which would allow money paid to individuals to be traced had been placed before the competent military authority?

I could not be aware of any of those points, nor am I conversant with any information placed before the competent military authority in this House or elsewhere. I asked my hon. and learned Friend whether he would inform me of the grounds on which he had made complaints against the Law Officers, and he said he would address questions to me in this House which would establish my responsibility, and he has failed to do so.

Has the right hon. Gentleman, in fact, communicated with the War Office in this matter, or has the War Office, in fact, communicated with the right hon. Gentleman?

The War Office has not communicated with me. I have communicated, as it was my duty, with the Director of Public Prosecutions in this matter, and he has no knowledge of the matters before us.

I do not know whether it is competent for me, but, in view of the unsatisfactory character of those answers, and the answer returned to me by the Home Secretary in reply to Question 48 as to the conflict of these authorities, I shall at an appropriate moment move the Adjournment of the House to discuss the whole matter.

Germany and Peace

Statement by Mr. Balfour

asked the Prime Minister whether overtures for peace have been received from the Central Powers or either of them; and, if so, whether he can make a statement as to the nature of these overtures and as to the answer, if any, which has been returned?

As the People's Commissioners have thought fit to publish a confidential dispatch from the Russian Chargé d'Affaires in London, there can be no objection to my saying that a communication was received by His Majesty's Government from Germany in September last, through the medium of a neutral channel, to the effect that the German Government would be glad to make communications to His Majesty's Government relative to peace.

His Majesty's Government replied that they were prepared to receive any communications which the German Government might desire to make and to discuss them with their Allies.

His Majesty's Government informed the Governments of France, Italy, Japan, Russia, and the United States of the German Government's suggestion and of their reply.

No answer has been returned, and no other official communication has been received.

Questions

Mission to United States

asked the Prime Minister whether it is yet decided that Viscount Northcliffe is to return on a mission to the United States; whether the President of the Board of Trade will also go to the United States; and, if so, what arrangements will be made during his absence?

I can at present add nothing to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member on the 19th November last.

Commissions and Committees

The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. BILLING:

51. To ask the Prime Minister if he has received a Report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the Farm Produce for His Majesty's Forces Forage Committee; how many sittings this Committee has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in the personnel of this Committee during this period; what is the annual cost to the State of this Committee, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting and stationery; and whether this Committee is to be continued?

I have eight questions on the paper, and I have also a question of which I have given Private Notice. I propose not now to ask No. 51 and No. 52.

I would advise the hon. Member to ask his questions. I do not think that the question of which he has given notice is an urgent question.

On the point of Order. The question of which I have given Private Notice is with reference to an officer whom the Government is endeavouring to get out of the country on account of an inquiry pending into charges of corruption in one of the Government Departments, which he has made, and it is of the very utmost urgency that the question should be asked, so that I may get a definite reply.

I give notice that I will raise this question on the Motion for Adjournment. [ The hon. Member then asked question No. 51. ]

This Committee has held six meetings in the last six months. The only change in personnel has been the addition of one member who represents the Surveyor-General of Supply. Its members receive no remuneration for their services as such, and the annual cost is therefore nominal. The Committee has done valuable work, and I hope it will continue to do so.

asked the Prime Minister if he has received a Report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the Milk Production and Distribution Committee; how many sittings this Committee has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in the personnel of this Committee during this period; what is the annual cost to the State of this Committee, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting, and stationery; and whether this Committee is to be continued?

I have been asked to reply. This Committee issued a first Interim Report in June last, and a further Report is now before the Cabinet. The work of the Committee consists in surveying matters connected with the production and distribution of milk during the coming year, and this work will continue. Thirty meetings of the Committee and its Sub-Committees have been told during the last six months, and the following members have been added: Sir George Newman, Mr. J. O'Grady, M.P., and Mr. W. Buckley; while Mr. J. T. Blackshaw has taken the place of Professor T. B. Wood. The members of the Committee give their services voluntarily, and the cost of, and incidental to the work of, the Committee is included in the expenses of the Food Production Department of the Board of Agriculture.

asked the Prime Minister if he has received a Report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the Royal Commission on the Sugar Supply; how many sittings this Commission has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in the personnel of this Commission during this period; what is the annual cost to the State of this Commission, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting, and stationery; and whether this Commission is to be continued?

I have been asked to reply. If the hon. Member will refer to the First (Interim) Report of the Commission (Ed. 8728) he will obtain full information as to the proceedings of the Commission up to the end of November, 1916. Since that date it has continued its work of purchasing supplies of sugar for the United Kingdom as well as for our European Allies; but the business of regulating the retail distribution has been undertaken by the Ministry of Food, and is being carried out by that Department in accordance with the recently published scheme. The Commission has held thirty-two full meetings during the past six months, apart from the ordinary daily business of the Department. During the same period the hon. Member for the Wilton Division has replaced Lord Devonport as chairman. Further changes in the personnel of the Commission, are in contemplation. The expenses of the Commission are charged to the Vote for Royal Commissions, but will eventually be recovered out of the balance of the Commission's receipts over expenditure. There is no intention of discontinuing the valuable and necessary work of the Commission.

asked the Prime Minister if he has received a Report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the International Commission for the Purchase of Supplies for the Allied Governments; how many sittings this Commission has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in its personnel during this period; what is the annual cost to the State of this Commission, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting and stationery; and whether this Commission is to be continued?

The Commission is an international body composed representatives of the British and Allied Governments, and as such does not report collectively to any one Government. The Commission is in permanent session. Its operations are, however, not generally carried out in plenary sittings but by consultation and correspondence between the individual representatives of the Governments mentioned and those of His Majesty's Government. The latter are ex-officio representatives of the various Departments interested in questions of supply, and any changes which take place automatically follow changes in the personnel of such Departments. The expenses of the Commission are borne by the Governments concerned in proportion to the extent of their representation, and fluctuate according to the volume and character of the work falling upon the Commission from time to time. The answer to the concluding paragraph of the question is in the affirmative.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say if any Report has been received from this Commission?

asked the Prime Minister if he has received a Report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the Committee on Cases of Hardship; how many sittings this Committee has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in its personnel during this period; what is the annual cost to the State of this Committee, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting, and stationery; and whether this Committee is to be continued?

The Committee on Cases of Hardship is a small executive committee set up to deal with cases of hardship to officers and men of the mercantile marine through loss of effects caused by hostile operations. The Committee meets as often as is required, and does not make formal Reports. No changes in the personnel have taken place. No special staff has been engaged or offices taken for the work of the Committee, and the total expenditure does not exceed £100. The Committee will probably remain in existence as long as there are cases to be dealt with.

Question (Private Notice)

The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. BILLING :

To ask the Prime Minister if he has received a Report as to the progress and recommendations, if any, of the American Dollar Securities Committee of Control; how many sittings this Committee has held within the last six months; whether any changes have been made in the personnel of this Committee during this period; what is the annual cost to the State of this Committee, including salaries, rent, rates, taxes, printing, posting, and stationery; and whether this Committee is to be continued?

I have been asked to postpone this question (No. 52), and, therefore, in its place, I will ask my Private Notice question.

I have already told the hon. Member that his question is not, in my opinion, an urgent question, and I now call on him to ask No. 53.

( later ): On a point of Order, with regard to your recent decision, Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask whether you would allow me to ask the Prime Minister for an assurance that until I have had an opportunity of putting down in the ordinary course the question of which I have given Private Notice, he will give this House an undertaking that the officer involved who has signed this affidavit of graft, blackmail and corruption against the Ministry of Munitions in the issue of permits shall not be driven out of this country back to France, but that he shall be allowed to stay here so that the case may be fully inquired into. It is not only a matter of urgent public importance but it is one of great national importance. It is a question of the purity of the conduct of our public affairs which is grossly and deeply involved.

The hon. Member sent me a copy of his question, and it is one which involves research. The Prime Minister is obviously not in a position to answer it without making inquiry, and the only answer which the hon. Member could have obviously is that inquiries were being made. It appears to me that if he will put a question down, he will get his reply as soon as the inquiries have been completed.

Since I came here the Prime Minister has sent a messenger tome, and he has ascertained all the details. I have given him the name, rank, and regiment of the officer involved. I have told him that all the papers are in the possession of the Public Prosecutor, and that he has advised the immediate return of this officer, and all the Departments concerned are trying to hush this matter up; and in view of the fact that this officer has made a deposition on oath, and the charge is a complete one of graft, blackmail and corruption, charging £5 commission on every agricultural tractor which comes into this country, and not allowing any of them to come in that does not pay that commission, and he also alleges that the shipment of these—

May I ask for an assurance that this officer shall not be allowed to go to France until the matter has been inquired into, otherwise all the evidence will be suppressed?

I have already told the hon. Member that it is absolutely necessary for the Department, especially the Department of the Prime Minister, to make inquiries as to those statements, and it is perfectly impossible to give an answer on the spur of the moment.

May I point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that all these Departments have been working on this case for the last fourteen days, and now they are endeavouring to hush it up, and get this officer out of the country. There is the Ministry of Munitions there, and they know all about it, and the Leader of the House knows all about it

I never heard a word about the matter until I heard it from the hon. Member.

National War Bonds (Prize Schemes)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that Selfridge and Company, Limited, are offering cash prizes to those who purchase War Bonds through them; and whether, in view of the popularity of the scheme, he can assure the House that a similar method will be adopted by the Government at an early date?

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply of yesterday to the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth.

Russia

asked whether now the public indebtedness of Russia to this country is about £600,000,000; and whether the Government is satisfied that adequate guarantees and conditions are established for the discharge of these obligations?

Railway Facilities (Colliers.)

asked the Minister of National Service on what conditions men who have on the appeal of the Government moved to work in collieries far from their homes can obtain the same railway facilities during holidays as are granted to those employed in controlled establishments?

Having made full inquiries, I cannot ascertain that any men other than those enrolled as War Work or National Service Volunteers, have been moved to work in collieries away from their homes in response to an appeal by the Government. As regards enrolled Volunteers, as has already been stated, arrangements are made by the Government entitling such men to free railway passes to their homes at recognised holiday periods.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that an appeal was made by the Government to workmen to go to colliery districts?

I was asked to find a specific case, and I made careful inquiries and cannot.

Wines and Spirits

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that speculators in the wine and spirit trade cleared goods from bond heavily in 1916, and have secured an undue advantage over traders who cleared according to their trade over the three years 1914, 1915, and 1916; and whether he will amend the Regulation by basing the average of supplies to be allowed over the three years, instead of the year 1916?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. In view of the fact that the statistics of supplies for the year 1916 are the only available figures at the disposal of the Customs and Excise authorities, it is impossible to make the amendment suggested.

Why is it that the figures for 1914–15 are not available—they ought to be able to be got from the Customs officials?

I will try and ascertain whether there are any. My information is that they are not.

Is it not the fact that the spirits cleared out of bond, being previously in custody, the figures ought to be available for ten years or ten months?

Workmen's Compensation

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has been able to arrange for cases of disablement of workmen that existed prior to the passing of The Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, to be dealt with in the same way as cases which come under the Act of 1906 in regard to the Workmen's Compensation (War Additions) Act; and, if so, what is the procedure to be taken by a disabled workmen entitled to be so dealt with who wishes to take advantage of the arrangement he has made?

It has now been arranged with almost all the mutual indemnity societies and insurance companies and with the railway companies that cases of total incapacity, under the Act of 1897, shall be treated as included in the War Addition Act. Any workman in receipt of compensation for total incapacity under the old Act who has not yet received the additional allowance should apply for it to the society or company concerned.

Does that also apply to associations of employers who insure their own workmen?

Home Office (Temporary Clerks)

asked the Home Secretary how many temporary clerks of various occupations over military age there are in the Departments under his control; whether clerks over military age of ten to twenty years' service have received notice to terminate their engagements, whilst men of military age are still retained; how many men over military age have just been given notice to quit; and how many men of military age there are in the Departments concerned?

Most of the temporary clerks employed in the Home Office and other Departments under my jurisdiction are women. The number of male temporary clerks over military age is about seventy. There is no foundation for the suggestion that men over military age have been dismissed while men of military age are retained. No men over military age, whether temporary or permanent, have been dismissed or have received notice to terminate their services.

Chinese Labour

asked the Minister of Labour if he has received protests from the Smethwick Trades Council against the employment of Chinese labour in munition and controlled factories in the Midland area; whether the substitution of white labour for Chinese labour was promised; if so, how many white substitutes have been provided; and how many Chinese workmen are at present employed in the factories in the area named?

Communications on this subject were received from the Smethwick Trades Council in September and October last. Every effort has been made by the Employment Exchanges to supply substitutes for the Chinese labour in question, and according to the latest reports nearly 100 workmen have been placed with the firms concerned. Owing to the great shortage of British labour, however, I understand that the firms in question have felt unable to discharge a corresponding number of Chinese. I am not in possession of precise information with regard to the number of Chinese workmen now employed.

I should think that applications from discharged soldiers would be favourably considered.

Munitions

Engineering Dispute (Leaflet)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he is aware that during an engineering dispute this year a leaflet was published at the request of an official of his Department; that the leaflet was printed by Messrs. Hazell, Watson and Viney, Limited, and that this firm received official indemnity against the fact that no imprint was attached; whether he is aware that the leaflet purports to come from Berlin and to bear a signed message of greeting from the Kaiser and Hindenburg to the British engineers, addressing them as kamerads; whether it was the intention to scatter these leaflets from aeroplanes over certain engineering areas; and whether he will cause full investigation to be made into this matter and ascertain who was responsible for it, and for what purpose it was done?

I have made inquiries in regard to the statements contained in my hon. Friend's question, and I am informed that, about seven months ago, a leaflet, answering to the description which he gives, and apparently humorous in its intention, was ordered by an official of the Ministry. A number of the leaflets were printed, but were forthwith destroyed. There was no publication, and I am informed that no official indemnity was given to the printer against the fact that no imprint was attached. It has been arranged that no expense should be caused to the State.

Action has been taken in the Department to call the attention of the official concerned to the serious view taken of it.

Is the hon. Member aware that a Government aeroplane last Sunday was seen over Coventry, in connection with some industrial trouble there, to scatter down leaflets, which were a reprint of an article in a Northcliffe newspaper; and was that done with the knowledge and consent of the Minister of Munitions?

Can the hon. Gentleman state whether the leaflets referred to in this question were distributed at all?

My answer was specific. They were all destroyed as soon as the attention of the Publicity Department was called to it.

Were any distributed before the attention of the Publicity Department was called to it?

Huts (Cleveland District)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether £85,000 was spent in Cleveland in building huts for ironstone miners, and how many huts were erected; whether his Department, having built the huts, approached the Ministry of National Service to obtain additional supplies of labour; whether the Ministry of National Service, having arranged at public expense for supplies of labour, applied to the Treasury for endorsement of the terms and conditions of service, and failed to obtain such endorsement; whether another Government Department, the Ministry of Labour, then intervened and offered to supply cheap labour from Ireland, and, in consequence, nearly provoked a strike among the Cleveland iron-ore miners; and if he will say how many of the huts are occupied and how many have remained empty?

The sum of £85,000 was spent on the erection and equipment of ninety-four huts in the Cleveland district for the accommodation of 2,760 men for work in the ironstone mines. The erection and equipment were completed in July and August respectively. The National Service Department was approached and undertook certain negotiations with a view to securing the required labour. I am informed by that Department that there was some delay in obtaining Treasury sanction for the terms and conditions of service; this sanction has now been obtained. I am further informed that there has never been any suggestion on the part of the Minister of Labour that cheap labour from Ireland should be introduced into the Cleveland district. Twenty-three of the huts are occupied, but no miners are yet living in them. It is hoped that the difficulties in the way of recruiting labour for the iron-ore mines will soon be removed, and that the introduction of fresh labour into the Cleveland district will shortly commence.

Can the hon. Gentleman say from what source the fresh labour is to be drawn?

Yes, and I believe their work in providing huts was most favourably commented upon by a Committee of this House.

Questions

Timber (Admiralty Inspectors)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether inspectors and assistant-inspectors of timber for aeroplanes and dockyard work are entitled to the bonus referred to in Admiralty Order 23,294; and, if not, why these officers are not included among the officers who are entitled to the bonus?

The bonus referred to is intended to apply to subordinate officers on the normal dockyard scale of salary. The inspectors and assistant-inspectors of timber are in receipt of special rates of salary, and are therefore not eligible for the bonus.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that some of these men are receiving less in wages and allowances than before the War?

No, Sir; the ordinary normal dockyard rate for inspectors is £150 to £200. But for these special appointments assistant-inspectors of timber get £250 a year, and inspectors of timber £350 to £400 a year. We do not think in this case the bonus should apply.

Admiralty Contractors (Wages)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty if he is aware that the firm of Salters Brothers, boat and yacht builders, of Oxford, who are engaged on work for the Admiralty, is not giving the increase of wages awarded to men engaged on this class of work; and whether he will inquire into the matter with the view of compelling this firm to observe the award?

Inquiries have been made of the firm referred to, who state that all increases of wages awarded to men in their employment have been duly paid. No complaints have been received at the Admiralty from the men regarding any failure on the part of this, firm to pay any increase of wages which has been awarded. If, however, my hon. Friend will supply me with any information to the contrary which he may have, immediate inquiry will be made.

That I could not say without further inquiry. It is a question which depends upon the award.

India (Sikh Community)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Sikh community has recently made any collective representations to the Government of India; and, if so, to what general effect?

Not so far as is known.

Royal Army Medical Corps

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that a large proportion of qualified doctors have been called up for service in the Army, and of the growing scarcity of medical men who can serve the needs of the civilian population, he will make arrangements to have the Report of the Committee now inquiring into the personnel and distribution of the Royal Army Medical Corps in France made public at the earliest possible moment?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given on 18th October to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Rutland. It is hoped that the Report will be received shortly, and the matter can then be considered.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, when the Territorial Medical Force was founded, in 1908, definite specific promises were made concerning such questions as rank, pay, and the character of the work to be undertaken in war, to medical men who were invited to join the Force; and that, by one of these promises, it was guaranteed that the duties of à-la-suite officers of the Royal Army Medical Corps, Territorial Force, would be in time of war identical with those which they performed in civil life; whether such officers are now compelled to inspect hospitals which are already inspected by direct representatives of the War Office, to sit upon medical beards, and to perform other administrative duties which these officers regard as a violation of the pledge under which they originally joined the Territorial Medical Force; and whether, in view of the dissatisfaction thus aroused, he proposes to take any steps in the matter?

In regard to the first part of the question, I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given on 6th November to my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham. I am not aware that any of these officers are called on to inspect hospitals administratively, although they may be required to inspect patients. Sitting on medical boards is purely medical work.

Linoleum Industry

( by Private Notice ) asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the grave crisis threatening the linoleum industry of the country, he will consent to receive a deputation representing all the interests affected, in order that the situation may be fully discussed?

I shall be very glad to receive the deputation in question, and I hope that arrangements will be made as soon as possible.

Invergordon Tenancy Case

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether Mrs. D. Fraser, a widow of nearly seventy with a son serving as a sergeant in the Canadian Artillery, was evicted recently at Invergordon during a snowstorm; whether her furniture was turned out in the snow; what were the circumstances which caused the eviction; and whether anything can be done to prevent similar acts of barbarity during the War?

I have so far received only a telegraphic report regarding this case, which does not enable me to reach a conclusion on the facts. I am awaiting a fuller report, and meanwhile I shall be glad to consider any statement which the hon. Member may wish to lay before me.

Public Trustee

asked the Attorney-General whether his attention has been drawn to the libels that are being circulated about the Public Trustee; and, as he is the custodian of many hundreds of trust estates, of which many are for the benefit of widows and children, whether he proposes to take any action to stop these libels?

My attention has been drawn to the latest, as I am informed, of a series of libels published by Sir George Smallman upon the Public Trustee, and its contents are now under my consideration.

School Teachers (Ireland)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland how teachers of seven, ten, sixteen, and twenty years' efficient service, respectively, whose average qualifications are up to requirements, will benefit under the amended scheme of salaries for national teachers?

I would refer the hon. Member to the White Paper which has been circulated.

Orders of the Day

Non-Ferrous Metal Industry Bill

Adjourned Debate resumed on Amendment to Question [3 rd December ], "That the Bill be now read a second time:"

Which Amendment was, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."—[ Sir Frederick Banbury. ]

Question again proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

When this Debate was adjourned the House had had the pleasure of listening to a speech from the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Reconstruction. I feel certain that if the business men of the country had heard what the right hon. Gentleman had to say they would, one and all, have been finally cured of any desire to see a Government Department managing their interests. We have all the greatest personal regard for my right hon. Friend, but he will forgive me for saying that I do not think business or commerce is exactly the profession in which his great abilities can be most profitably employed. What is the proposal of this most amazing Bill? It is that no person shall deal in non-ferrous metals unless he obtains a licence, and that licence is to be granted as a Ministerial act to all persons except those who are named in the Schedule. The persons who are to get a licence as a Ministerial act are not merely British subjects, but they also include all kinds of foreigners, except foreigners of enemy origin. A Frenchman, or a Chinaman, or an American, or a Peruvian, can come and get a licence as a matter of right, as I understand, and with as little formality as possible. The Board of Trade is only to come in and deal with licences as a matter of discretion when the person who applies is one of those set out in the Schedule. Let us look at the Schedule and see who are the people with regard to whom—as the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Reconstruction seemed to indicate—a licence is to be given whenever the Board of Trade thinks reasonable, but with regard to whom in the vast majority of cases a licence has to be refused. First of all,

When the Ministers came to argue this measure they dealt almost entirely with two particular metals out of many. There was hardly a word said about any except two—lead and spelter. I have tried to follow what they told us. Lead, we were informed, and I believe it is correct, came mainly from Australia and from Spain. It is quite clear that you do not want this measure to enable you to get Australian lead. All you have to do is to make some arrangement with Mr. Hughes, who, I understand, is not a person of enemy association or antecedents. I do not know why it should be a very desirable thing to establish in this country works for smelting lead ore. I should have thought, as a matter of practice, it would have been far more convenient to smelt it in Australia and bring it here in a more portable and handy form. How is it suggested that under this Bill we are going to be in a better position for getting lead from Spain? I do not see how by prohibiting a gentleman who thirty or forty years ago was a German from dealing in lead you are going to secure a supply of lead from Spain. If I were in the position of His Majety's Government and I wanted particularly to get a large supply of lead from Spain, I should think the most satisfactory and effective proceeding would be to intimate to the Spanish Government that unless British purchasers were able to buy lead at a fair price at Spanish ports there would be an embargo on the exportation of coal to Spain. I should think that a simpler plan, and far more likely to produce the lead, which is what we want. Then we heard a great deal about spelter. I never heard before the War—I am speaking of something that I know, because spelter is necessary for my business— that there was any particular difficulty in getting spelter. The Minister for Reconstruction told us some very interesting things about spelter. I should like to remind the House of what he did say. He said: that because there were no smelters the zinc did not come to this country. In order to obtain information on the subject of zinc I got hold of a book called the "Encyclopædia Britannica," the copyright of which is the property of the Governing Body of Cambridge University, therefore it is a book which will be acquitted of any Boloistic tendencies. In it I read as follows:

The production of zinc was originally a German industry. It was developed in Germany, not by reason of some devilish conspiracy to destroy the trade of this country, but as the natural development of an industry which had greater advantages for its development in Germany than in this country Those are the facts. I have obtained them from what I believe to be a reliable source.

The date of that particular edition is 1911. I agree it deals with matters which took place in 1835 and 1855, but I cannot think that the truth would have been different even if it had been written later. The historical fact remains that the development of the zinc trade in Germany is a natural one, and not part of a conspiracy, because it is easier to develop it there than here. As a matter of fact, the Australian ore, which is the only ore we can deal with, is in our own hands. So far as German and Belgian sources of supply are concerned, this Bill will not help you a scrap. The product of these ores cannot be affected by this Bill, and the German Government can prevent you buying the product of German ere as and when it pleases. As to Australian concentrates, if you want to smelt them in this country, although I think it would be better to smelt them in Australia, you had far better make a bargain with Mr. Hughes and establish a smelting factory in some suitable place. That would be more likely to give you the supply rather than to prevent gentlemen of German extraction from dealing in that article. The Minister of Reconstruction made an interested speech, in which he emulated the example of another famous man who, like himself, was once a Liberal. He proceeded to give us a list of decaying industries which were being destroyed by the machinations of the foreigner. He said:

"Taking the case of lead, I will give you a few illustrations of the trades which, to my knowledge, were penalised. This question of lead affects every trade connected with the manufacture of locomotives and engines of every sort. The whole of the linoleum and floor-cloth industry depends for some of its processes upon lead. So does the pottery industry, paper-making, glazing, printers' ink trade, commercial rubber, colour, electric lighting, and the mending of our ordinary household boilers. In all these various trades we found not only were our war supplies in jeopardy, but even the very existence of a number of these important trades, which are essential to the daily conduct of ordinary life, were in jeopardy because we in this country had allowed this great corporation to acquire a monopoly."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd December, 1917, cols. 203–4.]

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean us to believe that these great trades were being insidiously destroyed?

The right hon. Gentleman comes forward and suggests that this German corporation was aiming at, or might aim at, destroying altogether some of the most important and flourishing trades in this country. He said that it was the object of this German corporation to set up trades in Germany which might rival and possibly destroy some of the most prosperous trades we have in this country.

The hon. Gentleman must not misrepresent me. I did not say they were decaying industries. I said they were industries dependent upon lead supplies, and that, as this trust controlled the lead supplies those industries were, since the War, and are now, in jeopardy. That is true.

The right hon. Gentleman holds out to us as a reason why this Bill should be passed that these trades, not in war time but in peace time, are in jeopardy from this trust. All that we can say is that while this trust had every opportunity of destroying those trades it did allow them to flourish very remarkably. What is the doctrine of the Government? Is it confined to this particular firm and to these particular metals, or does the ominous reference made by the President of the Board of Trade indicate that we are likely to see similar Bills on similar subjects attempting to destroy the trade of somewhat similar foreign corporations? Is this an instalment or is this a very special case dealing with one trade only? We should all like to have some further enlightenment from the Government whether it is merely dealing with the Metal Union of Frankfort or whether it is a sample, as I rather gather from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, of what we are to look forward to. If it is a sample, it will be interesting to receive from the Government a much more complete exposition of the theory on which we are to conduct trade in the future than anything which has been vouchsafed to us in the past. What is the theory? Are we to understand that somehow or other the Government have got at the back of their minds an idea that it is possible and desirable for the people of this country to conduct every trade or a little bit of every trade? Is that the idea? Because, if it is, of course it can only be done by stopping a great many of the trades we are now carrying on. Everyone knows that before the War there was no substantial number of persons of capacity who were not in fairly regular employment. There was not, there is not, and there will not be after the War, a large margin of persons who can be put to the carrying on of all sorts of trades. If we are going to develop trades we have not carried on in the past, the necessary corollary would be that we should have to abandon some of the trades which have been flourishing here in the past. We ought to know something about that. We ought to know not only the industries which are threatened by the German combination, but also the industries threatened by the combination on the Treasury Bench. If we were supplied with a Schedule of those industries, although we might not get on faster with the subject, it would be a much more illuminating process.

If that is the theory of the Government, it is a very bad one. The doctrine that the State should be in some way self-supporting, so far as my recollection goes, was started in the great States during the Peloponnesian War, and was one which brought those States to ruin. It is a bad doctrine both on economic and political grounds. From the economic point of view it means that instead of trying to do those things which, because of your people or because of your soil, you have the greatest natural aptitude for doing, you are to try to do things you are most likely to do badly or less well than others. That must mean a lack of economic efficiency. On the political side it means that you are going to limit your opportunity for friendly intercourse with the other nations of the world. I fail to see anything which, by limiting the intercourse between this country and other nations, is likely to expand the Empire, which depends upon the sea, and whose Imperial inter-communications rest entirely upon the sea. Do we seriously contemplate the idea that we are going to organise our country for war after this War? I was under the impression that we had entered upon a war against war, and that one of the objects of this War was to obtain security and the reign of justice and law in Europe. If that is so, and if we are likely to be successful in that, it would be extremely unwise to prejudice our peaceful development by making preparations for a war which we are determined shall not occur.

If you are going to make provision for the contingency of war, it is important to select your future enemies as the persons against whom you are going to legislate rather than your present enemies. We have no guarantee that the next war is going to be a war against Germany, Austria, Bulgaria and Turkey. There is no absolute certainty of that. The last great war was not against those Powers. I believe that in the last great war those who were our enemies are now our Allies. The doctrine that you are to organise commerce with the idea of securing supplies must fail unless you have a reasonable guarantee with regard to the people against whom you are going to adopt these measures. I understand these licences are to be given freely and without dispute to everybody but the subjects of the four Powers with whom are are at war. Then they will be given to the very people with whom we may be going to wage the next war. Probably in the next war not one, or at any rate some, of the Powers with whom we are now at war will be our enemies, and probably some of the Powers now allied with us may be our most, formidable antagonists.

Another theory behind the Bill is that trade has to be organised as some sort of State affair. I want to protest against that altogether. I believe both national and international trade is and ought to be the peaceful and friendly exchange of commodities and services between different individuals. The idea that our trading relations, or for the matter of that our religious relations, are to be organised on State lines on which the inhabitants of one country and the subjects of one King are to be marshalled by the Government into a great host confronting the subjects of another King or another country is an abominable one, and that is really the underlying idea at the bottom not only of this but of a great deal of the rest of the right hon. Gentleman's proposals. We want individuals to deal freely with one another. We want to emphasise the fact that trade is not primarily a competition or a fight. It is an interchange of services, of assistance and of helpfulness. That is the doctrine on which all trade relations ought to be based. This Bill offends against that. It is expressed in the widest possible terms, but it is really intended to hit one man and one man only. Apart from that, it is a Bill the principle of which is opposed to all true and decent relations between man and man and between State and State. Surely it is a good thing that British citizens should be on friendly terms with the citizens of other foreign countries. It is a good thing that they should be co-operating with them in all sorts of peaceful work. This Bill is based upon the proposition that it is a bad thing. For that reason I hope the Bill will not be read a second time, and I hope the House will say that, whatever we may do for the period of the War as a war measure, we look forward when the War is over to a time when all the peoples of the earth shall resume friendly relations.

I intervene in the hope that, with my personal experience, I may be able to give a little information about one of the matters embraced in the scope of this Bill. From 1900 to 1910 I was the managing director of a company which sold annually 25 per cent. of the world's product of copper. Therefore, I lay claim to having some knowledge of its origin and its control. The centre of the world's copper market to-day is New York. It is not wholly controlled by producers, but by them and refiners and agencies which make long-time contracts with purchasers. There are very few individual producers of copper who can afford to refine their copper, for that is a process which can only be carried on economically on a very large scale. By reason of the only copper refineries of considerable magnitude being situated in the United States, that country controls a very considerable percentage of the world's copper which does not originate within its borders. American companies refine copper produced in Mexico, Canada, Australia, and South America, and this copper is marketed under American brands as American copper. All copper controlled by America is not American production, and it is in the power of any country like Great Britain to control a considerable amount of copper even though it does not produce any. About 50 per cent, of American copper is controlled by concerns which are dominated by people of German birth or German parentage, and, whilst I do not for a moment say they are not loyal American citizens, still they cannot wholly divest themselves of their sympathies. The principal concerns that I refer to are the American Smelting and Refining Company, the American Metal Company, L. Vogelstein and Company, and Beer Sonderheimer Company. The American Smelting and Refining Company is presided over by Messrs. Guggenheim. L. Vogelstein and Company is the American branch of Aron Hirsch, of Halberstadt, and the American Metal Company, which to-day is the dominant interest in the Granby Consolidated, by far the largest copper producing mine in Canada, is interwoven with the Metallgesellschaft, of Frankfort, and Merton and Company of this country. How intimate their relations are may be judged from the fact that on many occasions I have sold large quantities to one of these three companies, and afterwards been instructed to deliver it to another. The actual copper resources of this country are, as far as is known, negligible, but those of our Dominions are vast, and these should be prevented from being diverted to foreign countries, as they are at present. I believe this Bill is in the interests of the Empire, and make for safety, and therefore I shall heartily support it.

If I intervene in the Debate it is because this is not a wax measure. If it were so, I should certainly support the Government, as I have supported them so far in every measure they have introduced, and as I intend to continue to do while I possibly can. This measure is to remain in operation for five long years after the War. Even if, when peace is declared, I should consider it for the national interest that this Bill should have effect, I should support it, in spite of any individual interest or trade interest which may be affected. I put the national interest far beyond any individual or any other interest. It is because I cannot see that it helps the national interest in any way that I oppose this Bill. The President of the Board of Trade showed us in very excellent language that before the War there was a monopoly in certain kinds of metal, some of which are mentioned in this Bill. I think the Minister of Reconstruction, who also put in very graphic language the result of these monopolies, rather exaggerated his case. He told us that there was not sufficient metal in stock or to be obtained when the War broke out. I have been fifty years in the metal trade. I believe I am the only Member of the House who deals in these metals, and therefore I can speak from personal knowledge. There was any quantity of every kind of metal mentioned in this Bill to be obtained when the War broke out. The Minister for War and the Admiralty were offered thousands and thousands of tons of every kind of these metals, but they refused to buy because they hoped they would be able to get them cheaper, but events showed that they were wrong. If the right hon. Gentleman is right, and there was monopoly and control of these metals, I and the whole of the metal trade will be only too willing and anxious to help him to destroy any control which can possibly take place. Not only in war time, but in peace time, we hate any monopoly of metals or of raw material, and my firm on many occasions has been instrumental in destroying these close monopolies. Therefore, if this Bill was in any way going to help in doing away with the control or monopoly of these metals, I should be only too pleased to support it. I have listened to the speeches from the Front Bench with the greatest attention and have read them over and over again, and I could not find a single argument how this Bill can possibly destroy any of these monopolies. Right hon. Gentlemen are evidently not conversant with the trade or they could not have recommended this Bill as an instrument to prevent monopolies. Take the way in which business is done on the Metal Exchange. If the Metallgesellschaft—and I believe that is the particular society against which this Bill is directed—wants to buy copper, or to monopolise tin, spelter, lead or nickel, all it has to do is to send its orders when this Bill becomes law to a British-born broker, and he will execute them and buy as much for them as he pleases. There is nothing in the Bill which will prevent him from buying it for the Metallgesellschaft, or anyone else. A British-born metal merchant is obliged to get his licence, and there is nothing in the Bill which empowers the Board of Trade to take it away if he directly or indirectly assists this Metallgesellschaft, or any other Gesellschaft, in trying to obtain a monopoly. It is the same if they want to secure the products. They can buy the whole copper production in the United States if they like.

They can make contracts with the mines. Perhaps the hon. Member will say which copper mine is at present under contract to any British company?

People in America who sell copper never sell large amounts, in the first place, to people they do not know, and, secondly, they never sell very far ahead, because they do not know what is going to happen in these days, and there is not one of them who would ever sell his product for more than a month at the most.

I do not like to contradict my hon. Friend, but I have bought from the company with which he is connected £20,000 worth.

I bought from the Amalgamated Society. However, let that pass. I maintain that if the Metallgesellschaft, or any German firm, likes to buy large quantities of copper they can do so in the producing countries, and especially in the United States, where they are doing it now to a large extent. If they like to buy tin they can buy it in the market of the producing countries. The same with regard to spelter, zinc, and nickel. There is no difficulty in respect to their buying in spite of this Bill, and if they like to get control of these metals this Bill itself will not prevent their doing so. I cannot for the moment suggest any way in which that monopoly can possibly be prevented, but if you do desire to prevent it you will have to make your Bill very much stricter. You will have to prevent brokers here selling to German or Austrian firms, and you will have to prevent them selling or executing orders for any Dutch or neutral firm who might possibly get orders from the Germans or the Austrians. You would have to make arrangements with the producing countries, of which the United States are by far the largest, that they should not sell to any of these enemy countries. I am afraid you cannot prevent Chili or the United States from selling. The only way in which you can prevent these people from getting control is to follow the present method, which, I am afraid, will be difficult to follow after the War, of making every seller and every producer sign an affidavit and declare that the particular metal which he is selling goes straight into the hands of the consumer, and then follow the metal right to the consumer's works. Unless you do that you cannot possibly prevent any German firm or any other firm from getting control of a particular metal.

The only consequence of this Bill, so far as I can see, will be that the metal trade will practically come into the hands of the officials of the Board of Trade. At this moment the Board of Trade is doing all the metal trade, except in tin. It has complete control, and the result of this Bill cannot be otherwise than to put the metal trade into the hands of the Board of Trade. The proof that this is only an experiment, and only the beginning of a scheme for getting the control of all raw materials into the hands of the Board of Trade, is clearly shown in this Bill. The metal which is the most scarce, even now, and most necessary for the conduct of the War, and the only metal of which you have an insufficiency now, is steel and iron. Why have you not put steel and iron into this Bill? Why do you exclude steel and iron? I can tell you. You exclude steel and iron because there are strong interests of ironmasters in this House who would never allow the control of steel and iron to get into the hands of the Board of Trade. The President of the Board of Trade must admit that steel and iron are most necessary, but you do not put them in the Bill. This Bill is the forerunner of the control of other raw materials, such as cotton, oil, leather, steel, and so on.

Look at the metals which this Bill touches. First of all copper. So far as I can remember, there have been two attempts at monopoly in copper. The first time was by the famous Secretan Syndicate, a French syndicate, and the second time was by an American syndicate, both of which resulted in a dismal failure. It is impossible for anybody to control the whole quantity of copper, as has been shown by experience. But if anyone should try again to control copper this Bill would not prevent it. Take the question of tin. There has only been one strong attempt to control it, and that was by Mr. Secretan. That attempt was a dismal failure. If it were attempted again by a Frenchman, an American, or a German, this Bill could not prevent it. Take spelter. Fifty per cent, of the spelter is produced in the United States. As regards the concentrates in Australia, there is no danger of these getting into German hands for the next ten years, because a contract has been made by our Government for the purchase of these concentrates for the next ten years. We have a similar case with regard to lead. You cannot control the lead from Spain, and you cannot control the lead from the United States, and so long as you cannot control these two sources of lead supply this Bill cannot possibly help you in getting more lead. As regards nickel, that is in the hands of Canadian and French companies, and I do not think there is any difficulty. I could name several instances where large metal works have already been transferred to other countries, and mainly to the United States. I could name one of the largest tin smelting works, Williams, Harvey and Company, who are building works in the United States in order to smelt there, because they feel that there will be no difficulty in getting their ores to the United States, and they will not be subject to any licence of any kind.

The only argument of weight which I heard in favour of this Bill was by the Minister of Munitions, who said that it would assist competition. We have already plenty of competition in the trade, and without destroying any foreign competition, the brains of our metal merchants and metal producers are quite good enough to see that they can do their business without any artificial assistance. We have not seen the Report of the Committee on this subject, which was appointed by the former President of the Board of Trade, and we must assume that it is that Committee which has recommended this particular Bill. I have made inquiries at the Metal Exchange with a view to ascertaining whether anybody had been called to give evidence before this particular Committee. I could only find one individual, and that was myself. I was invited to give evidence, but evidently the Committee thought better of it, because they did not call me. Of whom does this Committee consist? I have not a word to say against the high honour and integrity of all these gentlemen, but it is rather an unfortunate coincidence that the same thing happens with this Committee as happened with the other Committee which originated the British Trading Bank. The chairman and I believe several other members of the Committee who recommended this British Trading Bank, because the chairman and the people were mostly interested in that bank. That is rather an ugly affair. We have got here another recommendation to have a sort of British Metal Trust, a British Metallgesellschaft, and I believe that money has been promised for that British Metal Trust. By whom? By one of the gentleman who is on that Committee. It is a most curious coincidence that several gentlemen on that Committee actually had a direct profit in the monopolies which we are now trying to destroy. It is a very strange coincidence.

I should like to ask a few questions in regard to this Bill. Does it include mining? Does every miner require a licence? The President of the Board of Trade does not answer. Surely it is a very simple question. I can tell him that it does in- clued mining, although I do not think it was intended to include mining. Every mine must have a pressing apparatus, and this Bill includes pressing; therefore it includes mining. As nobody is allowed to trade in metals without a licence, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every bank will require a licence? Members of the metal trade are in the habit of taking advances from the banks, and when a bank has to sell metals, which occasionally it has to do, it cannot do so without a licence. It includes all speculation in metals. That may be a good thing, but I do not know whether it is intended to do so. Then I should like to know what the President of the Board of Trade means by "wholesale or retail." We in the metal trade have not the slightest idea of what is meant by those terms. Take tin, does he call 5 tons wholesale or retail, or 3 tons or 2 tons? Does he call 25 tons of copper wholesale or retail, or half a ton of copper? We have not the slightest idea of what is meant. Then, again, I call the attention of the House to this, that the Bill says the Board of Trade has the right to withdraw licences from firms if they think it expedient—I have nothing to say against that for the moment—and there is an appeal to the High Court. In that appeal the man who thinks he is wronged has to go and give reasons why he does not consider it expedient. How can he do so if he is not told why it is not considered expedient? The Bill distinctly says the Government has not to give those reasons, but that the man must go and say why it is not expedient. Then there is a Clause, such as has never appeared in any Bill before, with regard to the power of the Board of Trade to obtain evidence with respect to applicants for licences. The Board of Trade can go to any merchant and say, "You are obliged to give evidence, and you must tell us what we ask, and show us your books." He may not be in the metal trade at all.

There is also the question of the one-fifth enemy interest in businesses, and who are liable to the penalties. May I call attention to one company which is very well known, the Rio Tinto Company. More than one-fifth of the shares of that company are held by German owners. If I am a shareholder, am I liable to six months' imprisonment if I do not get a licence? Finally, I would call the attention of the House to the great prop of the President's arguments, and that is the resolution of the Metal Exchange. Now, I myself instigated the discussion at the Metal Exchange on this Bill. We were appealed to that for patriotic motives this Bill ought to pass, but a Committee of the Metal Exchange was appointed to look into the Bill and mate recommendations. The Metal Exchange passed a resolution approving the principle of the Bill, with a slight amendment, as the President told us. What was that slight amendment? The slight amendment was that everybody should receive a licence except in such cases as the Board of Trade had good reasons to suspect them. In other words, the Board of Trade must give the reasons why a licence should not be given. The object of this amendment of the Metal Exchange was simply this, that we did not like monopolies, we did not like control, but we were quite willing and quite ready, if the Board of Trade could show that any broker or metal dealer or any man was trying, directly or indirectly, to get control of an article, or help anybody else, whether he be German or neutral, or anybody, to monopolise or get control of an article, to give the Board of Trade the most drastic power to stop such control because it is to the detriment of the nation. If the President of the Board of Trade will so amend this Bill or bring in another Bill in which he seeks nothing but those powers to prevent control where it is suspected and leaving it to the High Court to decide, we shall give him every support; but as long as he brings in a Bill which does not fulfil the good purpose which he says he want to fulfil, I do not think that any trader in the metal trade can ever give him support.

I think the hon. Member who has just sat down will acknowledge that I have some experience in the metal trade. If I wanted to draw comparisons, when he said he had dealt in hundreds of thousands of tons of copper, I could equally have said with truth that I had dealt in millions. His figures were so fantastic that I need not detain the House by dwelling on his arguments. The hon. Member referred to a meeting at the Metal Exchange. The President of the Board of Trade was correct when he said that the meeting passed a resolution unanimously in favour of this Bill.

He told the House that the Metal Exchange represents the opinion of the metal trade, but he did not say that an amendment to that resolution was moved by a gentleman who stated that if this Bill were put into operation, and if the German-born British subjects who might be eliminated by the Bill were eliminated, the metal trade of this country would be deprived of German finance and practically of German brains. I protest most strongly against the suggestion that the metal trade of this country is dependent upon either German finance or German brains. On the contrary, I believe that if we were not hampered by German methods in conducting the metal trade of this country, it would be to the great advantage of that industry. My hon. Friend at the end of his speech practically endorsed the Bill, because I have studied and investigated its provisions, and I fail to see where the Government intends to take any control or monopoly of the metal trade in this country. On the contrary, the main object of the Bill is, as soon after the War as possible, to relax the control which the Government at present hold, and they propose to do this by demanding that those people who want to deal in metals shall take out a licence. I can see no great objection to that proposal. My firm will be one of the firms who have to take out a licence. The hon. Member's firm will have to take out a licence. What is the objection? If his firm and my firm carry on our businesses in a manner by which the interests of this country will not suffer, the licences will continue, and I believe the President of the Board of Trade said that they would not need to be renewed every year.

I believe he said something to the effect that it will be renewed until it is withdrawn. I think that is how I interpreted the expression of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, but if I have not done so rightly, and if the licence has to be renewed every year, it will not affect my argument one bit. As long as a firm carries on business in a manner which is not inimical to this country, its licence will be continued. If, however, it is found by the Board of Trade that a business in metals is being carried on prejudicially do the interests of the country, then, I ask, is there any earthly reason why the Board of Trade, or some other Government authority, should not step in, and have the power to suspend that firm's operations. There is no use disguising the fact that when the War broke out, certain metals, especially spelter, zinc, lead and nickel, were controlled by German firms, and my hon. Friend will not dispute that fact. What is the object of this Bill?

The object of this Bill is to secure that trades and businesses in metals of vital importance to the State shall be carried on by British subjects, and, what is more important, by British methods, and, as far as possible, within the British Empire, when that is at all practicable. My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) made a speech to which I listened, as I always do to his speeches, with great attention, although in this instance I confess I did not follow his arguments. His main objection to the Bill seemed to be that it would curtail the power of certain large German interests, and that that power might be diverted to neutral countries, or to countries with whom we are allied at present, but with whom in future we might be at war. I am not one of those who subscribe to the theory that there will be no "next." I believe we must be prepared, even after this War, however happy its termination may be, to keep up a standard of armaments; but I say that if we wish to curtail our armaments, we must know that we can depend for supplies of essential metals necessary for war from sources on whose integrity the Government of the day may rely. I have always recognised, and I have admired, the efficient standard of that great German organisation. There is no use disguising the fact that they had got a control over certain metals which was practically impregnable—

Yes, over nickel. My hon. Friend, in the course of his speech, said the reason why we had not done so was because we were fools. I want the Government to act on the motto, "Once bitten, twice shy," and I believe that is the main object of the Bill. At the present time the metals with which this Bill will deal are practically controlled by the Government. When those firms have licences after the War, that control will be relaxed. I believe that is one of the main objects of the Bill. We want to be masters in our own house, and we must be masters in our own house, if we are to have the security which is essential in connection with these matters. For my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham to say that this is an infringement of the liberty of the subject—that is his favourite line of argument—really does not hold. I do not think he can have recognised when he made his speech the embarrassment this country was in at the commencement of the War in connection with some of these metals. It is no use the hon. Member for Paddington saying that there was an abundance of these metals when the War broke out. It is not the fact.

Offers of supplies may have been refused. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear."] The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Robertson) was at the Board of Trade and might know; but I say that there were no large available stocks of these metals on hand at the time the War broke out, and that the Government at the time had to rely on taking a large part of their supply from a firm who had, during part of the War, very close German associations.

The hon. Gentleman says they are my rivals. I will tell him this: I am as much indifferent to money matters in this connection as he is, perhaps a little less, and his statement is unworthy of him. As a matter of fact, my chief business has been in copper, and I am not very interested in lead or spelter.

It is not worthy of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henderson) to say that I am prompted in my remarks because this firm are competitors of mine. May I ask if he takes that line with the fellow members of his profession?

I had no intention of casting any reflection, but when the hon. Gentleman attacks a firm, as he did—

which was, the hon. Gentleman must admit, in opposition—in fair opposition—to him in the sale of copper, I think he must admit I was right.

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely wrong in every statement he made. I was never in opposition to that firm. My class of business is entirely different to that of the firm. I sell mainly for the account of American producers; the firm to which he alludes are dealers. That is in no more competition with that firm than the hon. Gentleman is, and I hope he will be more careful in future in the remarks he throws across the floor of the House. I will say this, though he may not like it: He may be holding a brief for a certain firm for all I know. If he accuses me, why should not I accuse him? I say that the metal trade was under not fair, but unfair, German competition. At the time the War broke out a certain firm, with large enemy associations, took advantage of the War—when there was a great deal of stress in the City of London—to obtain business by unfair methods. We want to put a stop to that, and we shall not get capital invested in the metal trade of this country unless those ready to put capital into the metal industry have greater security than they have had in the past. I venture to say that this Bill affords such security. As regards the details of the Bill, I consider that some of the Clauses will have to be dealt with.

Many of them, perhaps. I do not want this Bill to be looked upon as a vindictive measure, but as a measure protective of British interests. One of the Clauses that will have to be dealt with is Clause 2.

It is no use waiting. We must be better prepared for peace than we were for war. I think that is the policy. As regards the Bill, when it goes into Committee there will be certain Amendments that will have to be considered; but I shall support this Bill heartily, because I know it is to the best interests of the metal trade of this country and of the metal industry throughout the country. I shall support it because it is a Bill—and I think no one will deny this—which is demanded by our Dominions. Every one of the Dominions will subscribe to its provisions, and I believe the hostility towards this measure is not directed in the interests of the metal trade, but in the interests of—

preconceived political notions of people who, despite the War, will not learn any lessons, and who consider that the business of the country should be carried on in the future as it has been carried on in the past.

I think the House may complain a little of the form in which the Government have laid the Bill before it. Both the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister for Reconstruction observed a very narrow path and tried to put up a sort of screen over which the House was not to look in considering this Bill. They concentrated attention upon the suggestion that the Bill was aimed against the Germans, our enemies in the War, and everyone who has spoken in support of the Bill has embarked on the same stream. I noticed that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Preston (Mr. Broughton), who has now left the House, said that he was largely interested in the copper business. He dealt, I think, with 50,000 tons, but he did not say how the Bill would secure that any copper would come here. The Government has not answered any of the questions that were put to them earlier in the Debate, and all they do is to keep harping on the statement that the Bill is aimed against the Germans. I had a most remarkable experience about the Bill last Sunday morning. It was rather a melancholy day with the news from the front, so I opened my newspaper, the "Observer," with a great deal of interest, to see what fresh news there was. When I opened the paper what did I find? All about the Non- Ferrous Metal Bill. What did I care about the Non-Ferrous Metals Bill on a Sunday morning? I naturally wondered how it came about, and a moment's thought made it clear to me—as no doubt it would to every Member—that Mr. Garvin had no doubt come down on Friday to the Government to know what difficulty they wanted to be helped out of. He was referred to the President of the Board of Trade, who said, "The Non-Ferrous Metals Bill. You will probably not understand it, but I and the Vice-President understand it, and we will tell you what to say." They did, and so we found this article in the "Observer" last Sunday on the same lines as all the speeches to which we have listened. The article commences with a reference to Germany's empire of metals. That is worthy of Mr. Garvin, and it goes on to say that when she acquired Lorraine she acquired the minerals that are required for three-fourths of the armaments of this War. There he made a slip. In Lorraine she did not get non-ferrous but ferrous metals. He could not keep entirely straight, and it is difficult for any of us to do so. We are inclined to ask, Why if non-ferrous not ferrous? That is what we put to the Government at the time, but they have never answered. The article went on to say that we were depending on Germany, and that this Bill had drawn the fire of a heterogeneous criticism. Anyone who talks about the Bill from a business point of view is heterogeneous criticism. That is an illustration of the way the Government does its business. Instead of letting us do the business here they charge these papers with ex parte stories before the Second Reading Debate is over and the opinion of this House has been heard. I think the Government might exercise its influence to get a fair hearing for a large and far-reaching proposal of this kind rather than to work up this Press in the manner I have described.

If the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lough) suggests that I had an interview with anybody representing any newspaper on this matter he is quite mistaken. I did not interview any such person in connection with this Bill at all.

Then it is impossible for me to say where all this, agitation in the newspapers has sprung from.

I readily withdraw any suggestion which the right hon. Gentleman thinks is an imputation on himself. What I say is true, namely, that this thing is argued in this high-faluting style in this paper without the slightest reason at an early stage of our proceedings. The effect is to obscure the issue, and the House is not allowed to look straight—and that is what I want to put before it—at the great issue raised by the Bill. I would only make one other preliminary remark. The President of the Board of Trade used these words in his speech, and no attention has been called to them yet: been given for it—why was not a different kind of Bill altogether introduced? Why was it not a general measure against the Germans that would apply to other trades, to the ferrous as well as the non-ferrous metal trade, to sugar, and indeed to everything. No answer has been given to that contention, and for that reason he thought that the Bill was largely a fraudulent Bill. We have not had a correct or true exposition of it from the Front Bench opposite. These are the only two introductory remarks which I have to make.

Whatever may be said in favour of the Bill in reference to the Germans, there is a far more important side of the question, and that is to consider whether it will injure the British. I am convinced that there has been seldom introduced to our notice by any Government a measure more ill-conceived and more calculated to do very great injury. What are the proposals of the Bill in regard to our own trade? In the first place, the Bill is all restraints on the British. The Bill hits everybody who touches any one of these industries. If it is to be a model of other Bills, then we are to have restraint after restraint imposed upon our business. The Bill imposes no embargoes, no punishments, no fines upon the Germans. It is aimed entirely at the British. The first proposal is that there must be a licence before anybody can deal in any of these articles. Even a wholesale dealer is not to work without getting a licence. There was a very curious episode in the Debate I this afternoon on that point of the licence. My hon. Friend who has just sat down shook his head over the licence and said that it will not want to be renewed every year. He had no authority to say that. It is for the President of the Board of Trade to state, and the Parliamentary Secretary very kindly passed me over a note dealing with that subject. What was said was that it would have to be considered. But that is not what the hon. Member who has just sat down said. He said that the licences would not have to be renewed annually. The Bill says that the licence must be renewed annually.

There again you are putting traders into a most difficult position. You are going back to mediævalism. You cannot get money which you need in a trade; you cannot get financial help; you cannot borrow on your business when it is known that every year you have got to get a licence. The Bill even says nothing about being renewed annually, but it says that the licence may be revoked at any time. Therefore, over the whole of these businesses this power is exercised. Businesses, if they are to be developed at all, will want a long preparation. That is the reason why the great German businesses were so successful when the War began. They had been built up for fifty or sixty years, and if we are to be put into a state of uncertainty with regard to all arrangements affecting our trade we shall deal a deadly blow at industry instead of trying to do it good. Therefore when my hon. Friend who has just sat down asked what harm a licence would do, he was merely giving an illustration of that dangerous spirit of complacency which is doing so much harm to this country at the present time. Whatever the Government propose, we are all inclined to say, "It is war-time. Let them have it." We ought to scrutinise these proposals closely, especially when they do not deal with the War at all, and not agree to such a retrograde principle as this. In the second place, the Bill says that the licence is to be charged for—that is, the fee. That is also a dangerous principle. The fee may be nothing, but we do not like these fees. The whole procedure with regard to licences and fees involves suggestions with regard to business which were very common in this country half a century or a hundred years ago, but the progress of modern business has swept them all away, and the House ought to ask itself, Why are these mediaæval institutions to be restored at the present day?

Then the books of everybody engaged in the trade are to be open to inspection. There is no greater scandal, and there is nothing that is doing more harm throughout this country at the present time, than the inspection of books. A friend of mine came to me the other day—he is engaged in a trade which the Government are supposed to have nothing to do with at all—and he told me that these Government auditors had been in his office for the last twelve months. I asked, "What are they doing?" "I do not know what they are doing," he said. "They give us no information. They are poking away every day at our books; what they are there for, what they are doing, I have not the slightest idea." This inspection of books opens up before the people of this country who are having this wretched experience at the present time a vista which is anything but reassuring. These are the proposals on the face of the Bill. There are the licence, the charge for it, and the inspection of the books. But there is something else. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen (Mr. J. Henderson), who made such an able speech at the commencement, indicated that the Bill is really a proposition for a syndicate which is going to be started by the Board of Trade. That is a matter that must be gone into. The Board of Trade is not treating us very well. There is nothing in which it is more to blame than this, that it is not giving to the House the full information to which we are entitled with regard to these proposals before they are passed into law. The right hon. Gentleman, in introducing the Bill, made an allusion to the Report of the Committee. He made a little quotation from the Report which has been quoted in the Press since then. Where is the Report of the Committee?

There was no quotation from the Report, but it was part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech which they treated as a quotation from the Report. The Parliamentary Secretary will not say that it is not, and we have got to read the recommendations of the Report which are given to us by the Press.

There was no quotation from the Report in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, nor was there any paraphrase of it.

Was the effect of the Report given to us by the President of the Board of Trade? My hon. Friend cannot deny that, and not only that, but the Bill is founded on the Report. Then I say that the House ought to see the Report. Why does not the House see the Report? The answer is that this is the second unsavoury business which we have had from the Board of Trade recently. In the first case they published the Report. That was in reference to the trading bank, and we made ample use of that Report when we were trying to put up a fight against the bank. The Report of the Committee appointed by the Board of Trade made recommendations establishing a great trade institution, and when we came to inquire about it we found that the leading members of the Committee were to be, themselves, the trading institution, and next we found that they were to vote a sum of £45,000 a year in certain circumstances as directors' fees, and this thing went through, not with the support of my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, who was not in the Government then, but there was a Labour Member Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and if these transactions, by the establishment of trading monopolies set up by the Board of Trade on the basis of Committee Reports, are to go on, I think that both the work and dignity of our Departments of State will be seriously injured. There is only one way in which the Government can clear itself from stigma in this matter. Let them publish the Report. Let us deal exactly with the recommendations of the gentlemen on the Committee. Let us see if any others are in these non-ferrous trades. If we were simply after the Germans, and the Committee said so, then this House would be in a position to proceed with the matter. I suggest that the House has not been fairly dealt with.

This method of dealing with businesses by the State cannot be confined to the businesses dealt with in the Bill. There are many non-ferrous metals which are not mentioned in the Bill. A curious thing is that the one on which the Government harp most constantly, is not mentioned in the Bill—that is spelter. The word "spelter" does not occur in the Bill. I know that zinc, which is the same as spelter, does occur in the Bill, but there are references to copper, aluminium, zinc, tin and lead which are all great businesses throughout the country and will be profoundly affected by the Bill, and are not dealt with in a broad way at all. My hon. Friend on this side of the House asked what is a wholesale dealer. A great many people are asking that. People in this country and in Ireland and Scotland who sell a sheet of lead will be all wholesale dealers and they will have to come up to the Board of Trade to get a licence. There will be a profound interference with trade. The matter cannot rest where it is. If you start with non-ferrous metals you may go on to ferrous metals and from that you may go into everything else. You are introducing a new epoch into business and we should have a more candid statement from the Government as to what the whole thing is to lead to.

I have been dealing with the side of the Bill which has not been mentioned before. All the talk hitherto has been about Germany. I will just now say a word about that side of it. Suppose that an attack or the Germans were the purpose of the Government, how would this Bill effect any of the purposes of the Bill? How, in proposing these restrictions on British trade, can you at all restrict the German influence with regard to spelter or with regard to anything else? There is nothing in the Bill to suggest that we should get hold of any sources of supply. There is nothing in the Bill to suggest that we should oust the Germans by the methods which they themselves have used in the past, which were the methods of enterprise, ingenuity, securing patents that we patented for them even in this country, and thereby confined to them the right to use these patents. That was the case. In that way they obtained supremacy over those Australian mines which I had an opportunity of visiting when I was in that country. They could do that more cleverly than we, and the Bill does not give you any of the facilities that the Germans possess. It merely says that we shall have nothing to say to Germany. I suggest that if it was intended to aim at Germany the Bill is badly drawn. It should have been an extension of the Enemy Trading Act. There should be nothing at all about this or any other particular business. It should be directly aimed at Germany. It may not be too late for the Government to reconsider the matter. The President of the Board of Trade is not here, but perhaps the Solicitor-General is going to take his place. It may be possible to prevent us having an acrimonious Debate at a later stage of the Bill if the Government would plainly aim it against Germany, and if they draw their ideas carefully, instead of putting all these restraints on British trade, perhaps some measure of agreement might be secured.

But we must not accept that conclusion too closely, because there is another consideration of very profound interest in this matter. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen when he was speaking made a quotation from the speech of President Wilson. It is a very strange thing that on the very day when we were discussing the Bill here President Wilson made a speech dealing with the very same matters as those with which we were dealing in this Bill, and as the Government have the greatest faith in President Wilson and in his views—and we will hear more from him before this War is over—I think it well to give a short quotation from the speech to which I have referred. These are his words:

I have also read his words on the other side, in order that the point might be fairly stated.

Before my right hon. Friend continues, may I ask him, does he think that President Wilson proposes to withdraw the American tariff against Germany?

I have avoided a tariff discussion, and I am merely pointing out that President Wilson made his meaning clear that the points with which this Bill deals should not be dealt with until after the War. President Wilson, in effect, says, "Let us see if Germany behaves well after peace is established. We do not want to do anything unnecessarily until after the War." What I do protest against is this, that in the midst of war we are asked to consider these very great questions, which can only come into operation after the War is over. I believe, strongly, that the Government have not honestly disclosed the purpose of this Bill. All the Schedule about Germany might be laid aside; we have got it all in the Enemy Trading Act. The object of the Bill is to put a restraint of the most serious character upon a large branch of British business. I think the Bill might have sprung from some titled Socialists that we have seen at the head of the Board of Trade, and, whether or not the object is to nationalise industry, I do think it is a grave departure from the old and well-established custom of this country with regard to trade, and I submit that these questions ought not to be entered upon at such a period of the War.

I can approach this Bill without any great bias because it will give the metal merchant his right. I do not read the "Observer" on Sundays, and I have read the Bill, and I think it is a simple one. The hon. Member for West Aberdeen said that this Bill tears up the law as to naturalisation, but when I came to read the measure I found nothing in it to support that statement, and I am still of opinion that a person who was a British subject at the outbreak of the War would not come under this Bill. The hon. Member for Hexham said that this was a new principle that was being introduced. It is not new, and it is the same principle that was introduced into shipping many years ago. Nobody can have a share in a British ship unless he is a British subject. A great deal has been said about the control exercised by the Government Department in the past, and that it was a kind of control that they did not want to operate after the War. On that we all agree; but the kind of control in this Bill is not the kind of control the Government Department has been exercising. There is nothing in this Bill to permit the Board of Trade to fix prices, or direct methods of production, or to say that a man must have a licence to export or import. All this Bill does is to say that the man must have a licence once a year. The right hon. Member for Tyneside said that if you have a licence you cannot get money into industries. Brewers have a licence, and they get plenty of money into their industry. For my part, I think one of the dangers of this Bill is that it will hurt the British manufacturer, by helping to some extent to make businesses monopolistic, for there will be a kind of goodwill attaching to them. But no one can deal in this country who is not a British subject. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO, no!"] He must have the permission of the Board of Trade; and if the Board of Trade refuse, the man has the right of appeal to the High Court. There are three conditions. The first deals with the prohibition against dealing with these metals by these companies, another, power to require information, and a further one refers to a company or firm under a British name carrying on business for outside persons. I suggest to this House that this is a fair provision. What we want to know is, who is in the company, or who the man is who is to have the right of dealing in these metals. A man may have a British name, or a company may be under German influence, and it may have German money behind it. Another condition is that if the corporation or the individual carries on business outside the United Kingdom, then nobody who has a licence here must have more than 20 per cent. of the capital of that corporation or business. The reason for that is, if those British firms in this country are really going to be the nominees of outside firms, and controlled by them, or if those outside firms have a big interest in the business, or a big share of its control, then the British company would be merely nominally British, and would be controlled and influenced by Germans to their own advantage. The right hon. Member for Tyneside used arguments with which I agree in the main, and which may be true, from the point of view of political economy. If Germany made all the guns in the world each nation would be able to buy guns cheaper from Germany in time of peace. That would be true; but, on the other hand, when war broke out the unfortunate country which applied to Germany would not be able to get the raw material, nor would it have the machinery to make the guns nor the skill to handle and use the machinery, and it would be very badly situated. The hon. Member for Hexham said he looked at things from the standpoint of a permanent peace. Frankly, I cannot do so, and I think I am right in looking at the matter from the standpoint of a possibility of war in the future, and, having regard to that, one has to consider what one's attitude should be. The Member for Tyneside said that was all right; that the Metallgesellschaft had control during the War, and helped the country—

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the Metallgesellschaft had control, but the point I want to make is that if we had not had control of the seas at the outbreak of war, do Members of this House suggest that minerals and raw material would have flowed here, instead of to Germany? That is the whole point. The danger of allowing the enemy to control these vital necessities is the whole point. I say that there is a possibility still of another outbreak of war. Hon. Members say that this War will end war. One likes to think that, and to hope that, but, for myself, I do not think that this struggle is likely to end war, and therefore it is necessary that, after this War, we should have control of these vital necessities, and that they should not be allowed to remain in German hands. It is because I believe that a Bill such as this will do something to make the metal merchants of this country, British merchants, look after the interests of this country primarily, and will prevent the merchants of this country being controlled by outside influences, not of British origin, that I support it, and I hope will be passed.

When I read this Bill for the first time I was very much opposed to it, as I felt that it was inflicting unnecessary hardship on our merchants and imposing an unfair handicap upon some of our fellow-citizens who happened to be foreign-born. But when I considered the reasons which induced the President of the Board of Trade to introduce the Bill, I felt that it was absolutely necessary for our country that a Bill such as this should be passed. I do not believe that the hardships will be nearly as bad as some people think. A British firm that is not tainted by any of the conditions set out in the Schedule will have no difficulty whatever in getting a licence to carry on trade. Those who are tainted with those conditions, if they can show the Board of Trade that they have not been acting in any manner hostile to the country, and that they are not controlled by German or foreign influence, but that they are doing a legitimate British business, will have no difficulty in getting a licence from the Board of Trade. I heard the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt) doubting the German influence, but those of us who have lived abroad, and have done a great deal of business with Germans, fully realise the control that is held over foreign German firms by their home companies. Those who have dealt with them realise that they are good business men, but we know that they are working not only for themselves, but for their country, and that they never lose sight of the interests of their country. We do not know to-day where the hidden German influence comes in. There are many firms that are supposed to be British firms that have German influence in them. Let me take the case of one firm that came out in Court not long ago. I refer to the case in South Africa of the Crenstein Arthur Koppel Company, a British company registered out there with a capital of 60,000 ordinary shares and 2,000 1s. shares. One of the managing directors, Mr. A. F. Robinson, whose loyalty, integrity, and ability no one doubts, was managing this company. He stated that the turnover of the firm amounted to from !700,000 to !800,000 a year. The King's Proctor cross-examined Mr. Robinson, and let me read part of it:

"Will you tell us what shares in the Crenstein Arthur Koppel, Ltd., of South Africa, are held by persons resident in South Africa?—I hold 750; my secretary held one registered in his name: Mr. Newhouse, a co-director, had 100.

Is he a German?—No, he is a naturalised Britisher; and there were probably three or four single shares registered to clerks in order to comply with the regulations of the company laws.

"What was the capital of the company?—60,000 ordinary shares and 2,000 shilling shares.

"Who was the principal shareholder?—Every single share is held by the company of Crenstein and Koppel, Arthur Koppel, A.G. Berlin.

Do you know the capital of the Berlin company?—I think it is about!2,000,000.

A large organisation which carried on a big business in this country?—Enormous.

And elsewhere?—Practically all over the world.

Are the 750 shares held by you your property or are they merely nominally yours"?—For some time they were mine. I paid for them originally, but when Crenstein and Koppel amalgamated, Mr. Crenstein insisted upon my selling to him those shares, but they were lying in my name as qualification shares.

So you were really a nominee?—Yes.

The whole of the shares in the company, with the exception of the 100 held by Mr. Newhouse, and some single shares, were owned by persons residing in Germany?—Including the 100 held by Mr. Newhouse, and the single shares, they are also qualification shares.

Before the War was the policy of the company controlled from Berlin?—We had very large discretionary powers, but there was a governing council appointed which lived in Berlin, was domiciled in Berlin, and that governing council actually controlled the whole business."

That is one case only. But this has not been started lately. In the year 1901 we find that the Transvaal Dynamite Company was controlled from Germany, and in the articles of association it was provided that the local directors should be absolutely bound by the decisions of the European Council of Advice, which met in Hamburg. None of us want to do anything unfair, but we must look after our own interests, and we must see that Germany after this War, no matter how friendly we may become, can never get into the position that she can influence the metal trade that we need. I hope the President of the Board of Trade may see his way to make some alterations in the Bill in Committee, but no matter how bad a Bill it may be, it is a necessary Bill for us, and I hope very much that the House will see its way to pass it. I am sure, if it is pointed out to those who are asked to suffer some restriction that in doing so they are working for their country, that they will not have much to say about the restrictions.

6.0 P.M.

I look with great misgivings on this Bill, because of the further powers which are being conferred upon the officials and which every day become greater. The Bill, in my opinion, is a Bill to preserve certain interests. Personally, I have no interest at all in the Bill, but I have a great business experience, and I say that it is aimed nominally at Germans, but in reality it is equally aimed at neutrals and our Allies. The Board of Trade are given enormous power, and can refuse permission to any foreigner, not Germans alone, to come into this country and create an industry. Sub-section (4) of Clause 1 provides

"The Board of Trade, if satisfied by evidence, not before them at the time when the licence was granted, that such company, firm, or individual is or has become subject to any of the conditions set forth in the Schedule to this Act, may revoke or suspend the licence."

There is no necessity for the Board of Trade to give any reason or to disclose what evidence it has or where it got it from, but in an arbitrary manner any bureaucrat in the Board of Trade can cancel a licence or refuse to give a licence. Those are great powers to give to any Department. We must bear in mind, and the House must bear in mind, that by this Bill we are creating an autocratic bureaucracy which is a menace to the safety of the individual member of the community, and in none of these Bills do I see any safeguard at all for the individual. There is a nominal safeguard here, that an individual or firm can go to the Courts and prove that he is not what somebody accuses him of; but he is not able to obtain any information as to what he is actually accused of. Sub-section (3) of Clause 3 provides

"Where the person guilty of an offence under this Act is a company, every director, manager, secretary, and other officer of the company who is knowingly a party to the default shall also be guilty of the like offence and liable to the like punishment."

Clause 5 provides that the metals and ores to which the Act applies are zinc, copper, tin, lead, nickel, aluminium and other non-ferrous metals as those. I would ask any man whether it is an advantage or a disadvantage to this country to have industries established here? People say that the Germans had control of all these metals before the War. We have seen these industries increase enormously during the War. To many of them the Government have given large sums of money in order to develop those industries and we do not know how many millions of money the Government have given and lent to the different industries. A Departmental Committee was appointed by the Board of Trade, and no doubt many of those who received gifts or loans from the Government—on what terms we know not—were appointed on that Committee. We are now refused any of the evidence placed before that Committee, and, we know absolutely nothing of what caused the Committee to come to the conclusions to which they have come. We are given no information, and the House of Commons is simply asked to give autocratic powers to the Board of Trade for the benefit of their friends, whom they have already assisted enormously in establishing these businesses. I am not for a moment arguing that Germans are to be allowed to come here, because I do not think that anybody will be prepared to do any business with the Germans for many years after this War; but I say that this country cannot afford to go into a commercial war with every other country in the world. If you commence these restrictions against neutrals and against our allies, you will have these countries retaliating, and you will bring about a state of affairs which must be very prejudicial to British interests. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. The British community have enormous interests in every part of the world, and if you are going to commence by excluding everybody from this country you will be excluded from the other countries. People say with truth that the British Empire is the greatest Empire on the face of the earth. Everybody admits that, but it is not the whole earth. We have enormous interests and enormous business in other parts of the world. In the event of a future war you are going to establish these British industries here for smelting. If any company comes along of friendly aliens, or of our Allies, to establish a company to do the same business which the British company has established in the United Kingdom, there is absolutely nothing in the world to prevent the Government seizing that in the event of war and saying that it would be of enormous assistance to the nation to carry on the war. Nobody can tell me that it is a disadvantage to our labour that industries should be increased. Whether by British, neutral, or Allied capital, it must be a great asset to this country to have industries increased and developed by any means that it can possibly be done. The whole of this legislation tends to create such powers and to give such powers to bureaucracy that something ought to be done to prevent any further powers being placed in their hands. They are regular cormorants. They are insatiable. They want to do everything, and they are—I was going to say—absolutely incompetent to do it. There is no proper safeguard for the individual. That is one of my greatest complaints against this Bill. The House of Commons has no right whatever to give the powers which they are sent here to exercise and with which to safeguard the interests of every individual member of the British community into the hands of the bueaucracy so that they may act arbitrarily with any individual. For these reasons I shall oppose the Bill.

The speeches to which I have listened against the Bill appear to me to fail to touch the idea of the necessity for this Bill or to look back to the history of the movement of which this is the outcome. It is true that one of the speeches, that of the hon. Member for Hexham, took the history of this subject back to 1835. We need not, I think, really go back beyond the beginning of the War. What happened? At a very early stage in the War we found that the position of spelter was so unsatisfactory, and that the output of that metal was so completely dominated by our enemies, that our military position was very seriously prejudiced. We have been slow, perhaps, to take action; nevertheless, when Mr. Hughes was over here he fully realised the danger, and intimated that steps to deal with it would be, at any rate, taken in the Commonwealth of Australia. At that time I remember going with some of my Friends to discuss the matter with the right hon. Gentleman who now leads this House. I have not the slightest doubt that this matter has been fully considered by the Government for a very considerable period, and, therefore, that the Bill is by no means sprung upon us at this moment as a sudden idea of the Government. The position, as I say, of spelter was one of the most serious, because we were very seriously threatened with the impossibility of being able to smelt the ores that we had. Other metals were found to be under a more or less unsatisfactory control. There was nickel and other metals, but they were not in so dangerous a condition as was zinc. I do not hesitate to say that this is a question of whether or not this country means to retain control over the key industries which are absolutely essential to us. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Hexham talks about at the end of this War it being absurd to make preparations for war ever happening in the future because we knew we were fighting to prevent wars. Really, that looks as if people who held those views have learnt nothing from what we have gone through. Before the War we had the same sort of speeches. We were told that nothing need be done to prevent war because, of course, war would not come. We heard those speeches which were made several years before the War, and right up to the date of the outbreak of war. If we are going to take that view, and hope that wars will be impossible in the future, or that we are quite sure there will never be another war, it seems to me that we are simply indulging in the follies of the past.

The policy which is contained in this Bill is one, I sincerely hope, of a chain of steps to secure that the Empire shall be self-supporting in the key industries, and that we shall not be placed in the dangerous position in which we found ourselves when the War broke out. It is argued that owing to the defects of the Bill itself it will not be completely effective. None of the legislation of this House is completely effective. But, at any rate, this seems to me a step which we must take, even if it is not a perfect one. As to the argument that it is an interference with individual liberty and interference with people's business, of course interference of that kind is always disagreeable. None of us like it. When, however, it comes to a question of choosing between interference with the individual and security for the nation there is no doubt, I think, that the House will take a wise course and see that proper attention is paid to the security of the country. It has been argued in some speeches that it is unnecessary that an Englishman should be called upon to take out a licence. At the same time, almost, the argument is put forward that our enemies will make use of nominees and so be able to get round the provisions of this Bill and evade them. Surely that is a reason for insisting that everybody should have a licence, so enabling considerable scrutiny to be exercised. Thus we can go as near as we can to make sure that our enemies may be discovered if they are engaged in this sort of thing.

There are one or two small suggestions I will venture to make. One is that the provisions in the Schedule as to enemy capital will require very careful attention. There are stipulations regarding the ownership of capital by enemies. The last paragraph in the Schedule says:— Bill, must make use of all the expert knowledge they can get from those who are engaged in the various trades concerned. They must not attempt to administer this Bill without very careful use of all the assistance they can get. It is incumbent upon us to see that in the matter of the services which are upset and the supplies which this Bill is designed to make sure of, that there shall be real efficiency, and that we shall get what is required. If these steps are taken I do not see why the Bill should not be a very useful step in the right direction, while making sure, at any rate, of one strong point in our attempt to guard ourselves against a repetition of the dangers we have gone through. I should hope that this measure, with others, will do a service in that it will finally show that we have learnt the lessons which the War ought to have taught us.

I have sat through this Debate from the moment that it started the other day until now. I have heard during the course of the Debate more than one very remarkable statement I have heard from the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down the statement that this Bill is merely a question of whether or not we intend to control our key industries. I do not think this Bill has anything to do with that at all. I have heard from others that this is a question as to whether we want to get rid of German influence or no. I believe that this Bill has nothing to do with that question either. I do not believe there is any one in this House who is more determined as regards the end of the War he would desire, so far as Germany is concerned, than I am, and I do not think anybody would accuse me of wanting to do any good turn to Germany, or to injure the trade of this country. But I honestly believe this is one of the worst Bills that has ever been brought before this House, and at the risk of being a little longer than I am generally, I propose to tell the House why I think so. I believe it to be a bad Bill from every point of view. I think it is intolerable that a Bill that is not urgent in any way should be put forward at a time when we are in such desperate military straits that we hardly like to talk about the situation; that this should be thrown amongst us like the Irish Redistribution proposals were the other night—to make more discord and to sap the whole unity of the nation. I want to examine the alleged grounds for the measure, to inquire whether there is any need for it at all; then I shall have a word to say about the precise moment chosen for its introduction. I just first want to say something about the effectiveness of it. I do not believe it will carry out any of the intentions of its authors. Lastly, I want to say something about the novelty and far-reaching nature of its proposals, the proposals under which we practically suspend the advantages that we have on our word of honour as a nation given to certain people merely at the bidding of an official of the Board of Trade, from whose decision on questions of discretion there is no appeal in the Bill. I will say a word about the legal side of that in a moment. It is quite true there is a very strong feeling in favour of preventing enemies, or possible enemies, from acquiring control over our national resources, or doing anything of that sort which may endanger our safety; but it is the business of the Government to show us that their particular Licensing Bill is going to have any effect in increasing our safety, and, up to the present time they have done nothing of the sort.

Serious statements were made the other night—I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham who said it—by the Minister of Reconstruction, which statements were not only not true, but were the exact reverse of the truth, as any commercial man could have told him. It is not a question of opinion, it is a question of statistics. As to the statements the Minister made the other day, as my hon. Friend said, they had no foundation at all in truth. I am bound to say that I looked at a measure supported by these statements, and also attempted to be spoken to, and supported by appeals to prejudice, and to pathetic statements that our soldiers are dying at the front—as if we were not all quite concerned enough about that!—I look, I say, upon appeals like that from the very inception of the Bill with considerable suspicion. It is not enough to show that there was some German control in some industries: we have also to show that the German control did us harm. No one seems to have attempted to do that. It is all very well to say that at the beginning of the War there were certain industries controlled by the Germans. It is quite another thing to prove that during the first two years of the War the effect of their control did us any harm at all. That point has been taken for granted by a number of the hon. Members who have spoken in this House. We have been told that this Bill has the support of the Metal Exchange. Curious things have been happening about this Bill. We have not had an impartial examination into this thing. We have had the Minister of Munitions. We have had the sellers, I believe. We have not had consumers at all. We have had an examination, and this is the sort of thing we have got—and I think it is a most undesirable innovation in this House. You get a gentleman appointed as a chairman of a Committee, Sir G. Muntz, and then you get him as chairman circularising all the members of a certain Metals Committee to support this Bill. You have at this meeting two or three gentlemen who have been for the last year identified with the Ministry of Munitions coming down, and led by Mr. Cecil L. Budd, of Vivian, Younger and Bond, the chairman of the Metal Exchange, telling the members of the Metal Exchange that it is desirable that they should come hot-foot from the Ministry of Munitions, knowing what is wanted, and that all good patriots will support it. What is the result? That it is carried practically without any opposition, all good patriots at the moment thinking that that is the thing to do. But it certainly is a new method when people come down from Government Departments and try to use their position there to say, "Oh, we come down here and we know what they are saying there, and how important it is"—it gives them a great advantage. I think it is a detestable method in commerce, and one upon which this House ought to put down its foot very thoroughly.

Then we find, in due concert with the introduction of this Bill, a certain part of the Press becomes vocal at once. I quite accept what the President says, that he had nothing to do with this amazing Press cry which is calling everyone pro-German who is opposing this measure, and which is telling us, at a time of political truce, that it does not matter what the Free Traders think at all, because the Government are going to force the thing through. It is first the "Times" and then the "Observer"—all singing the same song. I think the House should resent this very much at a time when many, against our personal feelings, have supported the Government. We debated this question the other night for 2½ hours, about half of which was taken by the Government spokesmen, and the "Times" this morning makes the complaint that the Government failed to get the Bill through the other night because of the verbose opposition. It says: in excess of the requirements, and it was only when the enormous, and quite unforeseen, development of the War made a shortage of metals all over the world that there was any real shortage here at all.

I make a further challenge. Up to the time of the United States declaring war there was a large enough production of copper, spelter, tin, lead, and nickel for all requirements, and that the Ministry of Munitions might perfectly well have acquired a great many more stocks if they had chosen, and had had the wit to do so. We hear a great deal about German control. I want to know what America thinks about this Bill. America, at the present time, is producing about 65 per cent. of the world's supply of copper, 50 per cent. of the spelter, 40 per cent. of the lead, 30 to 50 per cent. of the aluminium, and refines 70 per cent. of the nickel. What does she think about this Bill? Is she going to join in with us, and not only America, but Japan, Chile, and Peru? How can one possibly talk about the absolute control of spelter by the Germans when 50 per cent. of the world's supply is coming from America? All these statements are grossly exaggerated, and very often it is not only a question of exaggeration, but it is a question of downright untruth. Let me take spelter. The Minister of Reconstruction said the other day that the Australian zinc concentrates were divided by the Metallgesellschaft between the Belgian and German smelters, and that we had no smelting capacity in this country, because the Metallgesellschaft took good care that we did not get the stuff to smelt. Was greater nonsense than that ever talked by a Minister in this House? Everyone who knows the elements of this question knows that we were not able to smelt the sulphide ores coming from Australia. I do not believe anyone will challenge that. And that was not because there was any German control, but because the Germans had the ability to smelter and we could not. We are told there is no smelter over here because the Germans would not allow us raw materials from our own Colonies, whereas our own Colonies would not send the stuff because we could not smelt it, and the Germans, after spending hundreds of thousands of pounds unsuccessfully, finally were able to do it, and when the Broken Hill Company were prepared to sell their output in very large amounts and for years ahead, they were naturally able to make offers we could not compete with at all. As regards the statement that the Germans took good care that spelter should not come into this country, I wonder where that came from? Who was prompting the Ministry of Reconstruction on that point? I wonder whether any smelter in South Wales corroborates that? Before the War the Germans again and again sent their people here several times a year trying to get this country to relieve them of some of the enormous supplies of Australian concentrates. Therefore, to say that the Germans were in some way trying not to let us have the material for our smelters to use is saying what is not true in any sense, and what any responsible Minister ought to know is not true.

As regards the alleged shortage of spelter, it is true that in the first few days after the outbreak of war people got excited because they knew they would not get the spelter they contracted for from the German syndicate. I have extracts from trade papers of the time showing perfectly well what the condition was. During the first five months of the War there was no shortage of spelter at ail—absolutely none of any kind. Not only that, but in August, September, October, and November the War Office were again and again offered spelter, and again and again they refused it. They said they had got enough for all their requirements, and did not want any more. I can give the right hon. Gentleman, if he likes, the dates of the interviews, and the people with whom interviews took place. To tell us there was no spelter is simply playing with the House. It was offered to them, and they were advised again and again to buy spelter, and to buy it in advance in large quantities. They refused, because they said they had got all they wanted.

The statement which I made as to shortage was when the munition programme became great. During the first five months of the War there was not a great demand. It rose during the following year

I am quite sure that the right hon. Gentleman endeavoured to make that statement, but I am sure, if he will look at his speech, he will find that he did not say so. Does he suggest that after the War had been going on for a year and a half it was the German control that was preventing us getting spelter?

:The German control had prevented the development of spelter in this country.

That is not what was said. The right hon. Gentleman said exactly the contrary. I withdraw that—not exactly the contrary; he said we could not smelt in this country because the Germans were preventing us from getting concentrates. In his absence just now I was pointing out that the Germans were constantly sending people over to sell their concentrates in this country, and we were not able to smelt because we did not know how. I do not think he will question that statement if he consults his advisers. We have been told by speaker after speaker to-day that, at the beginning of the War, we were in a state of terrible danger through the shortage of these materials. There is not a word of truth in it. I have got here weekly and daily accounts in "Quin's Weekly Metal Market Letters," referring both to spelter and to lead and other metals, and I could prove up to the hilt that, far from there being any shortage of spelter during the first few months of the War, owing to the spelter America was sending, there was, in fact, at one time rather a glut than otherwise.

Let me come to lead. We are told—and I again quote what the Minister of Reconstruction said—that as a result of German combinations we were for two years of the War in a most perilous condition, because we had nothing like a sufficient quantity of lead. Here, again, one stands subject to correction, and if one makes a statement like this it can be promptly challenged, with all the assistance at the right hon. Gentleman's disposal. During the first two years of the War no British consumer was ever short of lead for any trade into which lead entered. I challenge the Government to deny that. With all their appeals to prejudice, and mis-statements of fact and half statements, I make that statement, and challenge them to dispute it. As a matter of fact, what was the position at the beginning of the War? I think the world's production of lead at that time was about 1,186,000 tons, of which the Central Powers, with certain Continental Powers, had 226,000 tons. Great Britain, Spain, and the Allies have 960,000 tons, the Central Empires 265,000 tons, and other countries 930,000 tons. How can you talk of a shortage of lead in face of figures like those? To say that there was a shortage because the Germans were controlling the markets shows that the statement is entirely untrue. I could support my argument by quotations from the weekly metal market letters, showing the condition of the lead trade in this country and abroad, and the Government can take up that challenge if they like.

Take copper. We need not say very much about that. I see great experts on this question opposite and I should feel doubtful about saying much in reference to this metal in the presence of the hon. Member for the Wellington Division of Shropshire (Sir Charles Henry). Some extraordinary statements have been made about copper and we were told that that was one of the things we had to control. I do not think anybody will contend seriously that this Bill will have any practical effect upon copper, and no serious suggestion has been made that there was any shortage of this metal owing to German monopoly. Is there any suggestion that there has been a shortage of aluminium through German control? I think the Minister of Reconstruction will agree with me when I say that at least the supply of aluminium was plentiful until September, 1916, and in July, 1916, the Ministry of Munitions were refusing to buy it on the ground that they had no need of any at present. Is it suggested that there has been a shortage of tin for munition purposes? Nobody will suggest it, I know there has been a great rise in price, particularly since the beginning of this year, but that is largely owing to transport difficulties.

With regard to nickel, is it suggested that this Bill will free that metal from German control? If the Germans had any control of nickel it is our fault and not theirs, and we can control that metal without the assistance of this Bill. With regard to wolfram, is it suggested that this Bill is going to affect the supplies of that metal? I should be surprised to hear that suggestion. I do not want to pry into any secrets in regard to munitions. I should like to suggest that although the Germans were smelting most of the wolfram at the beginning of the War they are not likely to do it again, and one could mention works in this country now which will enable us in the future to handle all the wolfram we want. America, with 4,000 or 5,000 tons, is practically self-supporting, and there is only 8,000 or 9,000 tons in the rest of the world. I do not think we are getting a bad share of that, and we do not want this Bill to enable us to keep our hold upon that metal. [An HON. MEMBER: "It comes from Burma!"] Yes, and also from Spain, Portugal, and Brazil; and there are some other places I could add. Taking all these facts into consideration, it is perfectly untrue to suggest that we were ever short of any of these metals through German control. Owing to the unprecedented nature of the War we became short of some of these metals, but not nearly so short as you are trying to make out, and everything points in the direction that what shortage did occur was due to the lack of foresight of some Government Departments, and not to the scheming mind of the Germans; and to ask us to believe that is to make a large draft on our credulity.

But why confine this Bill only to these non-ferrous metals? Is it really a fact that it is to be confined to those metals, and is this because the powers behind the other metals are too strong to be tackled? That has been suggested here. We know that Germany before the War was most important in the chemical, electrical, and steel trades; and in the next war—I hope there will not be any further wars, and I trust that this one will be such a lesson to mankind that there will not be any more—the chemical and electrical industries may ask why they were not included in the Bill. Are you going to leave them in that position, that a naturalised German may not engage in the non-ferrous industries, although he may engage in the ferrous industries, which are to be allowed to go on as before? So much for the metals and the whole story upon which this Bill has been brought in. I object to this Bill because I find that the attempt to bring it in was based upon all sorts of exaggerations, which, unfortunately, are not entirely confined to the Press. I object to this measure because, if it means the beginning of a great policy for dealing with the Germans, it does not go far enough. It is utterly wrong to bring in a Bill like this now, just dealing with the fringe of the subject and nothing else.

Remember this Bill is not for the War, but for a period after the War. I think it is undignified for this country to be bringing in measures not only penalising the Germans after the War, but penalising those who have lived amongst us in peace for many years. I think it is quite possible that you may find, before the Bill has actually come into force, that you will have to repeal it, not because the Germans are going to win the War, but you may find in the peace negotiations, when I hope we shall have complete victory to guide us—you may find then that your desires to deal with the Germans in this way may be very contrary to the desires of the Americans, and you may find the value of American friendship and the high level President Wilson has brought this question to will be too much for you, and these petty measures will be undignified and Parliament will regret having done such a thing. I think it is intolerable that we should be asked at a time of national danger to consider measures that certainly cannot come into operation for six months, and which I hope will not come into operation at all. As regards the effectiveness of the machinery of the Bill, just look at the text. The Bill, as it is drafted, I believe would affect General Smuts, and I ask the attention of the Solicitor-General to this point. The first paragraph of the Schedule provides

And further on it is provided that the expression "enemy State" means any State with which His Majesty is, at the passing of this Act, or has, after the passing of this Act, become at war.

Yes, that is so; and one glance at the definition Clause disposes of that argument, and I at once withdraw it. There are two other things in the Bill which I think are wholly objectionable. Take, for instance, Sub-section (2) of Clause 1, which provides fication of naturalisation and may have actually lost some of his sons in the War, as I can show, that the burden of proof is to be placed on him. See what we are really coming to. A man may be returned to this Parliament who cannot get a certificate to carry on the metal trade. A man entitled to sit here and take the highest offices of State may be refused by his political opponents a licence to carry on the business out of which he has been living during the whole of his life. I am absolutely puzzled to know the meaning of one or two of these provisions. How are you going to work the second condition of the Schedule which relates to the capital of a company "held by or on behalf of an enemy"? How are you going to get over that difficulty? As regards the Clause that a company will forfeit its right of trading if enemy capital to the extent of one-fifth is invested in that company, I am still wondering why that has been put in. There was a delightful map held up to us the other day showing the ramifications of the Metallgesellschaft. I looked at it with great interest and wondered how many similar maps equally misleading could be drawn. I find mentioned the American Metal Company. That company has one-third of its capital American, one-third German, and one-third British. I take it that the British firm which owns one-third of that capital, if it continues to hold it, must lose its certificate of trade and I want to know why? It sounds so foolish, but I suppose there must be some reason for this proposal which has slipped my limited intelligence. It seems to me a very odd arrangement. It seems to me that the ramifications of the Metallgesellschaft have been very considerably exaggerated. I want to say a word or two upon the question of the first condition as to naturalisation.

A number of people who used to be considered as holding more or less Liberal views in this House brush aside that interference with the naturalisation certificate. To me it seems that this proposal can only be justified by the most urgent national necessity. Supposing the Home Secretary were to introduce a Bill, as I gather he may do, to allow certificates of naturalisation under certain circumstances. I should raise no complaint because when one becomes a naturalised citizen one has to take a certain oath of allegiance to this country. If under any circumstances one ceases to be a good citizen, no one will complain if the State does not allow that certificate. But that is not what you are doing here. You are actually saying to a man, who perhaps has been here all his life except for two or three years, "Although you have carried on your business for years, although your sons have been fighting and some of them have been killed, although so far as we know there is nothing whatever against you, we are going to put upon you the burden of proof to establish your title to a certificate." Is it necessary to say that to a man against whom you allege nothing but the misfortune of enemy birth? Are yon really going to say to that man, "The burden of proof is upon you to establish your right to this certificate"? It would be an intolerable injustice. If you can prove that men have done wrong, and there is real national danger owing to their having done wrong, that is one thing; but to say, because a certain number of aliens have behaved badly, that you, who have done nothing, are to be penalised, is absolutely un-British. It will be a sad thing for this country when we tear up our own words and treat them as insignificant scraps of paper. I do not say that there are no cases for doing it, but let the State prove that the cases exist, and let these people who have been good citizens be considered innocent until they have been proved guilty. How are the Government going to answer this case? A British company owns a Norwegian mine. An enemy holds some of its shares, and the company loses its certificate?

I think not. I think the hon. and learned Gentleman will find that the Norwegian law lays it down that there cannot be such a holding of foreign shares.

That raises a very difficult complication, but I know that both that case and the case of a British company operating a Spanish mining property, and extracting metals, in which an enemy holds shares, actually exist. I was told the other day of some difficulty in the Spanish law, but I know from personal experience that it can be overcome. I think you are going to get these cases. Are you going to penalise them if one share is held by a German? I do not say that the certificate will be always withheld, but you are going to put it in the power of a Department to say that it may be withheld. I say that is going a great deal too far. The basis upon which this legislation is demanded is thoroughly unbound. I believe that the shortage of metals has been grossly exaggerated. It is due not to German control, which this War very quickly broke, but almost entirely to the unprecedented character of the War. If the Government say, "We want to get control of certain key industries and metals," they will get a very different reception from that which they are getting for this Bill. That is quite a different policy and one which many Free Traders who object to this Bill would be prepared to consider. I object to this Bill not only for that reason, but because quite false reasons have been put forward to carry it. I am suspicious of it, because I find it accompanied by this extraordinary campaign which unfortunately accompanies all the Government's worst blunders and because it brings in this economic warfare before we have decided whether it is right or not.

I do not believe that this War will be followed by an economic war. I hope it will not, because I am absolutely certain, if it is, that it will be followed by another real war. I hope this War will end without us having economic warfare afterwards. It is beneath the dignity of this country, when we have not yet won the War, to take little piecemeal measures like this, to say, "We will have economic warfare hereafter with Germany, Austria, and Turkey," and to determine what we will do with our our enemies after the War. I dislike it for that reason. I am perfectly certain that our best weapon after the War will be the best use of our brains and industry. I do not like the German methods, but, like another hon. Member, I do admire their industry. After all, we have seen what industry can do. We may not like what they have done in Russia, but at any rate, when we never took the trouble to go there and when hardly anybody here took the trouble to learn the Russian language, they had the brains to exploit the country. That is where we suffer. It is not the control by the Germans of the metals of the world. It is the fact that they were an industrious and pushing race when we for a time had gone to sleep. We shall never get our hold over the world again as we had it in the past, whether we break this metal control or not, unless we alter the whole of our national methods and come into the field and beat the brains of Germany. We have got to meet them, and I think we shall meet them successfully, in a fair field, and we shall break down, I hope for ever, all these barriers between countries, instead of setting them up. I want to see all trade barriers broken down, and not new ones put up between countries. They do more to make war than anything else. I cannot understand how we started this measure on the very night that President Wilson was speaking, and why we cannot catch some of his spirit. Some of his words have been read to-night. May I read some others? throwing into this House these apples of discord one after another. Let us go down to our constituencies and rally the people behind them. Do not let us have to look at the papers every day to see some ludicrous attack made upon people who have lost their sons in the War as pro-Germans because they are against this measure. We are against it because we consider it thoroughly bad and thoroughly unworthy of the House and the country. I do beg the Government, while there is yet time, to stop these provocative measures, and to let us get on with the prosecution of the War to a successful conclusion.

The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded his speech, as he started it, with an appeal that in this time of party truce those who support this Bill should not regard its opponents as pro-Germans. I have not, in the whole course of this Debate, heard any such, suggestion, but I would remind the hon. and learned Member that his colleague the Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt), who opened the Debate this afternoon, thought it worth while to refer to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Reconstruction (Dr. Addison), who supports the Bill, as a man who was once a Liberal. I am afraid one would have no possible hope of converting, the hon. Member for Hexham to support the Bill, because he goes too far back and too far forward. He goes back, through the medium of the Encyclopædia Britannica to 1835, and he goes forward, because he said, in his view, the ideal thing was an international commercial relationship which produced a peaceful and friendly exchange. I hope this House is not going to delay instituting some measure of protection in the sure and certain hope that after this War that ideal condition is to obtain.

7.0. P.M.

The right hon. Member for Tyneside (Mr. J. M. Robertson), to whom I owe a very great deal, challenged the supporters of this Bill to produce a single case where the Germans had been able to prevent a metal or ore which might come within the scope of this Bill from reaching this country. I would like to give the House one. The industry of the Welsbach incandescent mantle is due to the discovery that thoria combined with ceria, two rare earths, subjected to great heat, give this brilliant light. Those rare earths were originally found and worked by an American company from deposits of monazite sand in the Carolinas. The German Thorian Syndicate acquired the right to work more advantageously situated deposits in Brazil. In fifteeen years they drove the Americans out of the market. About 1911 deposits of monazite sand were discovered in Travancore, India. They were alleged to have been found by a Mr. Schomberg. I ought to say that the Travancore deposits within our own Empire were so infinitely richer in these two rare earths than those in Brazil, which is practically the only other source, that anyone who could obtain control of them would be in a position to control the manufacture not only of thoria and ceria, but of gas incandescent mantles. I am not going to argue whether Mr. Schomberg was a German, or a naturalised German or a German-American. He formed a syndicate, the London Cosmopolitan Mining Company, and with the consent of the Indian Government he secured a concession over our Travancore monazite sand deposits. It was a condition of the concession that it should be transferred to none but a British company. That was in May, 1911. In December, 1911, this syndicate, together with the General Electric Company, agreed to form a British company to take over the concession, the British company being the Travancore Mineral Company. Mr. Schomberg's syndicate received £10,000 in ordinary shares and £10,000 cash. The General Electric Company provided £20,000 in preference shares to this Travancore Mineral Company, now a British company, and received from that company 10,000 ordinary shares by way of commission. Mark what followed! This British company, the Travancore Mineral Company, supplied practically the whole of the output to a German syndicate. The little they allowed to come to this country was put at prohibitive prices. Shortly before the War the English gas mantle makers were summoned to Berlin by the German ring and were informed that unless they, the British mantle manufacturers, limited their output, the Germans would withhold supplies of thorium nitrate, without which the mantles could not be made. A further condition was that the price of the mantles was to be advanced and that two-thirds of the advanced price should be paid by the British manufacturers to their competitors, the German syndicate. In the light of these facts, it is interesting to note that inquiries instituted after the War showed that the whole of the preference shares and a majority of the ordinary shares in the Travancore Mineral Company—the supposed English company—were held in trust for the Aur Company of Berlin, the Berlin syndicate. With Mr. Schomberg still the manager in Travancore, and with a German-controlled English company, it is not surprising that these valuable deposits found in our British Empire, were controlled by a German syndicate, who were thus enabled to take the British manufacturer by the throat and to dictate to the British public the price they should pay for mantles, as well as to demand a toll to be paid to the German syndicate on every mantle sold in this country. It is not necessary for my purpose to go into the steps taken since the War by the Secretary of State for India to free this industry from the shackles of German control. I am not satisfied that they are completely successful; that is another story.

I have simply referred to the matter as some evidence of the necessity for this Bill. But for the War, I have no doubt that the attempt to ration the raw material used by the British manufacturers would have succeeded. Even in war-time British firms resent being rationed by the British Government. I cannot think that the opponents of this Bill would prefer that in peace-time they should be rationed by a German syndicate. If this Bill had been in force in 1911 and our authorities had known then what they know now, such an ignominious state of things would have been prevented. The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) thinks that every English firm should be left unfettered to do its ousiness with whom and how it likes. The history of the Travancore concession shows that the English company got the concession because they were an English company. Did they know when they allowed the German syndicate to finance and control them that they were handing over to those Germans the power to throttle the British mantle industry? If they did, then they deliberately, for gain, tricked the authorities and sold the country's interest. Unfortunately, there are people who take advantage of the too easy facilities provided by our company law to camouflage transactions, alliances, and associations which are against the public interest. Does anybody deny it? That was a matter which was not directly connected with the War. Without hesitation I state that the German Government fostered and supported the German chemical industry, which in a great many cases depends upon the substances mentioned in this Bill, particularly the dye trade. I am perfectly sure that the British public do not yet realise what happened, otherwise there would not be any trouble about this Bill.

The German Government fostered and supported the dye trade particularly with a view to using the whole organisation for war purposes at the shortest possible notice. Hon. Members may ask how could it be used for war purposes. The dye trade and the high explosive industry are practically identical. The country that manufactures dyes will of necessity manufacture sulphuric acid, fuming sulphuric acid and nitric acid, and will prepare and distil the coal-tar products. These are the raw materials without which high explosives cannot be made. Their manufacture necessitates great technical knowledge and experience. The Germans took care that their people got it. Does anybody now suppose that their motive was simply to cultivate German commercial interests? They did it because they were secretly preparing for a great war. This industry was encouraged in every possible way, because they wanted to be in a position to manufacture the deadliest high explosives on the very largest scale at a day's notice, and because by killing the industries of other countries they would prevent, as far as possible, other nations from taking up these branches of trade, so that in the event of hostilities they would be placed at a great disadvantage. They nearly succeeded. When war broke out, what was the position with regard to this matter? There were only three small works in this country, one Swiss, able to turn out fuming sulphuric acid, which is a sine quâ non of the production of high explosives on a big scale.

I can give the following as absolutely conclusive proof that the German Government prepared for war under the guise of commercial enterprise. I would like hon. Members to pay attention to this and decide for themselves whether the facts do not prove this up to the hilt. In prewar days there were ample supplies of natural carbolic phenol, which is the raw material from which picric acid and lyddite are manufactured. There was no commercial reason for using synthetic carbolic acid. For about a year previous to the War a great German company Baer and Company, of Elberfeld, had been selling synthetic carbolic at as low a figure as 3¼d., a figure unquestionably below the cost of manufacture, which, under the best conditions, is probably between 4d. and 6d. Can anyone doubt that the German Government instructed this firm to construct and work that factory, which was not wanted for commercial purposes, and did so, first, in order, to get an enormous and immediate lead in hostilities, and, secondly, in order that British manufacturers might be put out of business and their plants dismantled? They succeeded in the first object, and, had they been given another two years, they would have succeeded in the second. It was the fostering care with which, with diabolical cleverness, the Germans controlled this industry that enabled them literally to blast their way through Belgium and to come wellnigh winning the War with a rush. This country owes an apology to our First Army for sending them to fight an enemy who, by means of a prostitution of science and commercial trickery, were supported by forces which, owing to our blindness, were immeasurably more powerful than the weapons with which our Army were supplied. I contend that I, as a British citizen, owe that First Army that apology. We did it because prior to the War we regarded these matters from a purely commercial point of view, and not from the point of view of war. Our enemies were regarding it from the point of view of war, and when it came to war we suffered these consequences.

It is urged as an argument against the Bill that we are handing these things over to the control of a Government Department, and we have heard of all the dreadful things that are going to happen to the trading and commercial interests if they are handed over to the tender mercies of a Government Department. It is an absolute travesty of the Bill to say that. The Bill will put into the hands of the Government Department better means of getting information which, if the Government had obtained it in reference to the matters to which I have referred, would have put us in a very different position during the first six months of this War. That is one of the cheap sneers, and a part of the snapping and snarling at Government Departments who were referred to by one Member as "Jacks in office." My answer is that it is not fair to these Departments which this country has improvised to do work they never had to do before, and work which they have to do under conditions when some of their best men—the Cuthberts, who were hounded out of their Departments by certain of the Press of this country—were either at the front or were lent to other public Departments which had to work with an insufficient staff. It is perfectly cruel to these men that responsible people should seem only too proud to be able to come here, and, if they can find that some junior clerk has made some mistake, to use it as a means of publicly displaying their great knowledge which they have obtained, very likely, in the Smoking Room the night before from some trade constituent. They are willing to put it right in public when they can get the credit for it. If the Departments were to tell the truth, I believe they would say that it is not the people who in this House are most fond of criticising and of showing how much better they could do things, who turn up at these Departments and give them any help whatever. That is not their business. The Minister for Reconstruction asked in regard to this Bill, "If this is not a scheme you want, how do you suggest it should be done?" Somebody on the Front Opposition Bench said

I gave you a suggestion to-day which has been made during the whole of the Debate, namely, that it should be done by an extension of the Trading with the Enemy Act

I have no doubt that the right hon. Gentleman has slept over what he said last time. I am sure he did not think when he said what he did.

If he will take the responsibility for it, I am sorry. No man in this house—whether he sits on the Front Treasury Bench or on the Front Opposition Bench, or on any Back Bench—has a right, when problems dealing with the War, and worse problems which will come after, in connection with reconstruction, are under consideration, to say, "It is your business to suggest a remedy; it is not mine. I am not in the Government." Those days have gone by, and it is because the country notices this that it has a little less faith in this House of Commons and its freedom from the old party ties to which we give such lip-service outside the House.

With the concluding sentences of my hon. Friend I find myself in agreement, for if I understood him aright he invited the Government and this House to complete co-operation in these questions, contribution to be made not only by the Government, but by the rest of the House, all of us realising that we have a common responsibility in the conduct of the War. I shall return to that principle, for I wish to make the suggestion to the Government that they should give this House a better opportunity than will be provided by ordinary Committee procedure for examining the whole of these questions and providing material which the House will be prepared to accept in the later stages, I hope without controversy. Meanwhile, let us consider, even at this late hour, the main principles upon which this Bill has been based. The whole question of supplies for this country in time of war has been under consideration by no fewer than three Governments—the first Government, which came to an end in May, 1915, the second, which came to an end in December, 1916, and now the present Government—and I believe I am saying what no one can contradict, that from the very first the object of all three has been to deal with such questions as the necessary materials for the conduct of the War entirely on their merits and without any doctrinaire predilections. Indeed, I have been accused more than once by my own friends, and sneered at by some whom I can scarcely call my friends, for not having been a sufficiently consistent Free Trader. My hon. Friend (Mr. Holt) has always been quite candid with me on the subject. My reply to that has always been that in time of war we neither have Free Trade nor liberty. Both must be sacrificed for the time being in the common cause. There has been no Free Trade since August, 1914. I go further than that, and say that in all measures of defence we have never adopted the strict doctrine of Free Trade. There was no Free Trade in battleships, there was no Free Trade in destroyers, there was no Free Trade in guns, although I regret to say there was in explosives. From the experience we have had during the last three and a half years, we all came to the conclusion that the area in which Free Trade must be restricted in matters of defence only must be greatly extended. I should be prepared to deal with explosives exactly in the same way as with battleships. I believe provision must be made, if we are to run the risk of wars in the future, for our having a sufficient manufacture of explosives to provide for all our needs.

Surely, if we have learnt anything during the War, we have learnt that extemporising can never be as effective as preparation. I am not now saying anything new. I have stated from the other box exactly what I am stating from this, that there are directions in which provision must be made irrespective of whatever may be the fiscal doctrines which guide our political action. Explosives I take to be one, spelter I reckon to be another, and there may be some others which we need not mention at the moment. We recognised that so fully that in the summer of 1916, I think about April, we entered into the closest negotiations with Mr. Hughes, who was then in this country, in order that we might obtain control of the output of zinc concentrates from Australia. As I look back on those transactions I at once ask myself, was that a more businesslike proceeding than this Bill? Our experience in spelter was not exactly what my hon. Friend (Mr. Glyn-Jones) described it. There is no doubt that in the early months of the War there was spelter and more than enough. It was only later on that the shortage of spelter became apparent, in exactly the same way as the shortage of copper became apparent later on. We had an abundance of both for many months after the War broke out, but as the War went on and the demand for spelter grew, not only here but in America, where their works were largely engaged on the manufacture of munitions for us, the demand for spelter became greater and greater. It was not because the demand for spelter became greater at that time that we entered into negotiations with Mr. Hughes. It was in order that we might make provision for the future, and we made provision for the future in what I believe to be the proper way of dealing with this problem. We got control of the material itself. In getting control of the material itself we made provision for the very risks which I described in the opening part of my remarks.

I use spelter as an illustration, but I could refer to other metals as well, and on every one of these I must repeat explicitly to the Leader of the House a question which has been put again and again to-day without any answer being offered, the simple question, How will this Bill give you control? He and I have no dispute about the main object so far as defence is concerned. We may not altogether agree on other policies which may lie behind this Bill. It is quite possible that we may have a conflict of opinion as to our after-war economic policies, just as we had over our fiscal policy before the War, but in the main object of obtaining control of essental materals for the purpose of defence, will he inform the House how this Bill will give us control? Another question which has been put to which I hope he will give us an answer is, Are these licences to be annual licences, which must be applied for each year, or will the firm which obtains them in the first year have any prescriptive right to them in the second and succeeding years? On the answer to that question depends a great deal of the security which traders must have in entering upon contracts in future. It will be absolutely impossible for vast transactions to be carried on as they are by metal firms if they are not sure whether at the end of twelve months their licences are or are not to be renewed. The mercantile community is quite entitled to ask whether these licences are to be annual, subject to being dropped at the end of the year, or whether any prescriptive right will be given to those who obtain them at first. I would also ask the right hon. Gentleman whether there will be anything in the nature of a vested interest created by the issue of these licences?

I will say nothing more about licences except to offer one or two remarks on the subject of naturalisation. Whatever we may think of the risk which is run by this country in allowing naturalised Germans or Austrians, or Bulgarians or Turks, to know what is going on here in commercial circles, or to go freely about amongst our people, and be members of our various Exchanges, it is certain that up to the present naturalisation papers have remained exactly as they were before, and the obligations entered into by this country extending the rights of citizenship to those who have taken out naturalisation papers were uninterrupted and unlimited. Naturalisation has remained equivalent to the authorisation which was obtained by most of us by right of birth. Is it really the intention of the Government to interfere with our naturalisation laws in this Bill and in no other? Are we to have a great question affecting our national honour dealt with in a Schedule of this Bill rather than by bringing in, in a straightforward way, a Naturalisation Bill introduced by the Home Secretary, with the full authority of the Government behind it, enabling them to deal with all naturalised enemy subjects? I do not think the Government has realised how strong would be the feeling that we are adopting methods scarcely worthy of the British name and of naturalisation rights. I do not know whether they understand how strong are the feelings of men who, although born abroad, have fully accepted British citizenship. I hesitate to mention any names in the House, but I must take the opportunity to mention two—I regret to say without their permission, but I am sure they will forgive me. We had in this House for a long time, as a very respected Member, Sir Robert Ropner. He arrived in this country as a refugee when he was little more than a boy. He never returned to Germany. He built up a magnificent business on the North-East Coast. His firm is now one of the largest purchasers of various materials, partly for their own use and, it may be, on occasion for the purpose of holding. They will come under the operation of this Bill so far as their metals are not to be used entirely by their own firm. Sir Robert Ropner was a Conservative Member, but he had the respect of every quarter of the House. He is well known all along the North-East Coast, and yet the stigma is to be put on him that, although naturalisation papers were issued to him, he is to be treated as something in the nature of a suspect. This Bill is going to make it impossible for him to deal in metals on the same basis as those who were born here. I take another respected citizen of ours—Sir Ernest Cassel. He has been here now for a very great number of years. He has been in the confidence of very large numbers of distinguished persons. I should like to know what are the feelings of men—I will not say these two, because they will be too dignified to complain—but what must be the inner feelings of many like them who find that in the Schedule of this Bill they are to be stigmatised as not worthy of our full confidence? When we gave them naturalisation papers we took a risk. Let us be men enough to go on with that risk. If we find them in any respect betraying the trust which has been placed in them, let them be treated with the utmost rigours of the law, but until that has been done let us at all events treat them like other British citizens.

I should like to ask, also, whether the right hon. Gentleman has considered how far the policy of this Bill conflicts with the considered statement of economic policy of our greatest Ally. Reference was made earlier in the Debate to the speech of President Wilson, which has been hailed, I am glad to think, by every party in the United Kingdom as completely satisfying their aspiration, but on the subject of economic war after the War President Wilson was so explicit as to be quite past all risk of misunderstanding. His words were:

Yes. I have read such of them as have appeared in the Press, but they have no bearing upon this question whatever. The hon. and gallant Gentleman will no doubt have an opportunity of speaking in this Debate, and perhaps he will be so good, if my right hon. Friend fails to fill the gap, to say how far President Wilson's policy conflicts with or is in harmony with the underlying policy of this Bill. That is a plain question. In so far as this Bill is based upon vindictive feelings against Germany it is in conflict with the statement of President Wilson. But I do not think we need to bother ourselves so much as to what is said on this subject outside. We have our own standards to maintain, and the standard that I would wish to reach in this Bill is, if I may say so, not only one of public honour, but public efficiency.

When we are told how utterly we have failed because we had not a Bill of this kind in the early months of the War I am bound to cast my memory back to the transactions over which I had control. I take first of all the case of copper. I am quite ready to sit at the feet of the hon. Member for Wellington (Sir C. Henry) on the subject of copper. He has forgotten far more about copper than I ever knew; but I think he will remember that at the beginning of the War copper was absolutely so abundant in the States that many smelting works were closing down. During that period of the War some of us were looking ahead to a much larger consumption in this country, and I was authorised by my colleagues to make large purchases of electrolytic copper for the use of the British Government as soon as our needs became great. We had in view the buying up of the electrolytic copper available in the States to prevent its going through neutral countries into Germany and Austria. We carried through that operation in the winter of 1914–15. We actually got control of the copper with the result that in the spring of 1915, so complete was our control of the copper that the Departments had quite as much copper as they could deal with and we were even able at that time to supply outside firms, and others who were quite unable to make their purchases while we were in the market. We did that with very little effect on the market prices. The operations were conducted with comparative secrecy through our representatives in America. We did not make a corner, because I believe a corner in copper is well nigh impossible; but we did succeed in getting such large supplies that not a single soldier suffered from the shortage of copper, and if the Minister of Reconstruction will permit me to say so there was not even a finger of a British soldier lost because we had not enough copper.

The right hon. Gentleman made a statement much more drastic than that. He said that at the beginning there were scores of thousands of lives lost because we had not this kind of control. I think my right hon. Friend was not only exaggerating the death rate amongst the soldiers directly attributable to the lack of material but he was also exaggerating the value which this Bill would be to the Government in preserving the lives of our soldiers. Our purchases in 1914–15 were conducted over a fairly long period, and there could be little or no German competition, because they were out of the market. They could only buy through neutral countries. One thing was perfectly clear and that was that the operations of the Metallgesellschaft of Frankfort were absolutely unable to interfere with our purchases. Their organisation had come to an end in August, 1914. Copper was purchased by us on a basis and at a price at which it was not open for the Germans to deal. Therefore, so far as copper was concerned, no arrangements of the kind proposed in this Bill were necessary. I dare say my right hon. Friend has in mind nickel. There are better authorities in this House on the subject of nickel than I am; but if there is one thing of which I have been made aware from the very first, it is that the main sources of nickel are in New Caledonia and Canada. I have ascertained from the highest authority in France that the French have taken steps to control the output of nickel in New Caledonia; just as Mr. Hughes took steps to control the output of zinc concentrates in Australia. In Canada the Government have taken steps, with the assistance of the British Government, to control the output of nickel there. We have been given no definite information as to the transaction. We do not know whether it has been done by way of advances or Government holding in companies there; but I understand that Canadian nickel is now under entirely British control. That is the kind of control for which much can be said; but it is not the same thing as this Bill. When, you come to lead, exactly the same thing is true. No warrants that are issued in London, and no operations that may pass through merchants' offices are likely to control the lead necessary for warlike operations. The only thing to control lead is by controlling the sources of supply. I think the Minister of Reconstruction complained of the tremendous rise in the price of lead. It certainly has been one of the most remarkable rises since the War began; but that was not for the benefit of the Metallgesellschaft; it was mainly for the benefit of the Australian producer.

The rise I quoted was before the War, and that was for the benefit of the Metallgesellschaft.

That is not comparable to the rise which has taken place since. When the War broke out lead was selling at £18. It has risen to well over £100. Nothing like that ever happened in pre-war times. In 1914–15 no one was short of lead. It was later that there came a shortage of lead. I believe I am not exaggerating when I say that this Bill would not have provided this country with a single stone more lead when required. Let the House remember that far from taking the view that we ought not to make provision in times of peace for heavy consumption in time of war I take the view that in certain essentials it is our bounden duty to do that, just as it may be our duty to strengthen the Fleet; but what I do urge is that this Bill, whatever merits it has, has not the merits of giving us that control of supply which will be necessary for waging war. Spelter is in pretty much the same case. When I come to the last of my remarks I would ask my right hon. Friend who follows me if he will be so good as to say how under this Bill it will be possible to handicap the activities of Germany in the metal markets of the United States, or in the South American markets and in Spain. I can understand a policy which would hem in the Germans if they were to embark upon any aggressive war. I can understand a policy which would provide us with economic means of enforcing a league of peace or a league of nations, and the only weapon which I believe would carry through a league of nations, but I cannot understand measures of this kind, of a more or less trivial nature, absolutely unable to provide us with that security for which the claim is abundantly made, and which will certainly not prevent the Germans, through their financial organisations, from making such purchases as they require in nearly every one of the great markets of the world. Germany will still be able to buy abroad, and under this Bill foreign speculators will still be able to buy here. There is actually nothing in the Bill which would prevent that. If the policy of hemming in Germany by economic means, and the power of enforcing a league of peace or a league of nations is to be adopted, let us adopt the same policy in this country as they adopt in America. Unless you do that, and there is harmony of action, it is bound, to be ineffective, because America, as I have shown by the quotation of President Wilson, is not likely to do anything that is comparable with the measure now before the House.

My last remarks on the Bill are purely on the question of procedure. This Bill is based on the Report of a Departmental Committee. I have some knowledge of the setting up of that Committee, and I believe that in so far as you could get representative names from the nonferrous metal industry those names were obtained. I do not doubt the personal honour of any member of that Committee, but I must point out that they were all gentlemen engaged in the trade. I know I shall be asked by my right hon. Friend what I would have done in a similar position. I am quite prepared to extend to him the same candour which he always extends to the House, and I will say at once that what I would have done in the same position would not have been to take the report of that committee without examination, without hearing the views of the consumers, but I would have regarded the Board of Trade as being in the position of guardian of the consumer as well as of the producer. I would have taken good care that not only should we have the opinion of a highly specialised committee engaged in the trade, but that we should have had thorough inquiry made amongst those who will have to obtain their material from the very firms who will be affected by this Bill. Has that been done. If it has been done we have no evidence of it in this House, and we have had absolutely no evidence of it in this Debate. The Report, I understand—I hear it is so; I have not seen it—contains six main recommendations. The Government have only taken one of the recommendations. How do we know that they have taken the best? How do we know that they have not taken the most trivial? We know nothing about it. The Government has not given us the privilege of knowing the advice given to them by this specialised committee. My hon. Friend, who spoke before me, made the suggestion that this House should co-operate with the Government in this matter. I invite the Government to co-operate with the House.

It is not sufficient for the Government to say that they have considered this policy, and that on their responsibility they bring this Bill down to the House. The whole management which will have to be adopted by the Board of Trade, and the trade itself, if this Bill is passed, will interfere not only with the making of munitions and with the supplies necessary for the Army and Navy, but with practically every trade in the country. In so far as that is true, and I believe it to be true, this House is the guardian of these industries. I do not say that the work which has been done by this specialised committee could have been done by a committee of this House, but the findings of that specialised committee could be examined by this House, and the suggestion which I make in order that this House may bear its fair share of the responsibility is that this Bill should be referred to a Select Committee of fifteen, after the Second Reading has been obtained, that those fifteen should be fairly representative of the House—a microcosm of the House—that if necessary some of its sittings should be in private, that it should report at the earliest possible moment, and that it should be authorised, if necessary, to sit during the Recess. Every one of those facilities would quickly be given by the House. Let the Bill go to that Select Committee; let that Committee see something of the evidence which has been taken. Submit the Report to them. If we are not to be trusted with it in this House for fear lest the publicity should give information to the Metallgesellschaft of Frankfurt about their own affairs, let that Select Committee at all events have a chance of looking into the material facts. I say to the Leader of the House, who is an adept Leader of the House, that he had far better take the advice which I am tendering, than allow the House to remain in a state of uncertainty, and, as he has seen to-day, of constant oscillation in view, which is bound to be the effect of the procedure which has been adopted on this Bill. I believe a good deal of misunderstanding is due to misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the facts. That could be examined into by a Select Committee. I would suggest to my right hon. Friend that the proper course for him to take, in order to carry the House with him—and if he wishes to carry the House with him in this matter—is to accept the suggestion which I make and to allow the House, through its Select Committee, to go fully into these proposals and make recommendations to the House as to the form in which this Bill shall be ultimately passed.

I hope my right hon. Friend can see his way to adopt that course. He can, after the Second Reading has been obtained, move that the Bill be committed to a Select Committee upstairs. If, however, he does not take that course, I regret to say that, although we cannot vote against the Bill on the Second Reading, for we are not prepared to put any obstacles in the way of safeguarding the national interests in so far as they can be safeguarded, we are prepared to vote against any Motion that the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House; and we shall regard it, if I may say so, far from dealing with the House in a fair, generous, and co-operative spirit if the advice which I have given is not adopted. If the Government do not succeed in the Motion that the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House, then it will automatically go to a Grand Committee, and we should then move that the Order for the Grand Committee be discharged, and that the Bill be sent to a Select Committee. But it would be far better for the Leader of the House to carry the whole House with him rather than go through this complicated procedure, and I conclude by making an appeal to him and to the Government to take a representative body from this House into their confidence, and allow the House to bear its full share of responsibility for the measure.

I confess that I have been a little surprised at the variety of the opposition to this Bill. But I should like to say at the outset—I need not tell my right hon. Friend that—I do desire, if possible, to carry the whole House, or as much of the House as I can, with me, and when I deal with his suggestion I think I shall be able to show that his proposal would not have that effect. I have said that I was surprised at the variety of the opposition. I think on the whole the House will agree with me, that the probability is greatly in favour of this Bill being a good one when we find it is opposed by my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Islington (Mr. Lough) in conjunction. A good part of the opposition is based on the ground which I think I can show, obviously, is inevitable, that if there is to be any attempt whatever to get control in this matter it must be by the interference with trade by a Government Department. There is no one in this House who, both from past training and from instinct, is more anxious than I am that we should revert as soon as possible to as large a measure of independence in the conduct of our trade as is possible. On that there can be no difference of opinion, but the suggestion that this is some tremendous control is surely, as my right hon. Friend behind me says, a complete travesty of the facts. We are told it is a terrible thing to ask that licences be granted. There are trades now where licences are necessary, and it is obvious to the House that if the object we have in introducing this Bill at all is to be carried out, if there is to be any attempt to eliminate German influence in these essential trades, there must be some control of that kind. The beginning of that control is that some Government Department must do it. There is no method in which it can be more easily brought under control than by licences, and as a matter of fact licences will not affect five out of a hundred or probably one out of a hundred cases. In ordinary cases the licence will go without any question whatever; it will only be used when it is suspected that the conditions of this Bill are not being adopted. The best proof, in my opinion, that that is not the real difficulty is to be found in this fact, that the members of the Metal Exchange themselves, who are those who will be directly affected by it, have passed, apparently unanimously, a resolution in favour of the Bill; and I would also remind the House—and this is of equal importance—that the Federation of British Industries, which represents a very, very large body of industrial life in this country and which does represent the consumer, to whom my right hon. Friend referred—this great association has also passed a resolution in favour of the Bill. Therefore I do think either that this House has greatly changed its views during the last eighteen months or this opposition is very incomprehensible. What is the Bill based upon? It is based upon the Paris Resolutions. Let me read to the House the special Resolution which the Government are endeavouring to carry out by this Bill:

"The Allies decide to take the necessary steps without delay to render themselves independent of the enemy countries in so far as regards raw material and manufactured articles essential to the normal development of their economic activities."

I need not remind my right hon. Friend that the three most important Resolutions in that Conference were presented by the British delegates and all of them were drafted, including this one, by my right hon. Friend. I go a step further. I do not believe my right hon. Friend has changed his views, but I do think he is looking at the matter from a very different point of view now. This is what he said in a Debate in this House in December. 1915—this is the important thing he said:

"What were the steps being taken by the Government for preventing the penetration of English industry by German enterprise, which has been one of the facts largely before our minds during the last two or three years and which has become very patent during the War?"

The object of this Bill is to deal in the future with this German penetration. My right hon. Friend put me several questions. I shall do my best to answer them. He asked, "How is this Bill going in any way to interfere with this German penetration?"

:I never used the word "penetration." What I asked was, "How was this Bill going to give us the control?"

In effect I do not think the argument I am going to use would have been altered by the use of that phrase. This is my answer: He—and, I think, others—pointed out that at the beginning of the War there was no scarcity of these metals for ammunition. Yes; but at the beginning of the War there were no factories in which you could make munitions, and obviously it was only as the factories became available that the scarcity of these metals became apparent. Is it really necessary to state in what respect the real effects of the elimination of German interest in our businesses would have effect? What they did was not to avoid selling us metal in peace-time—and, of course, they could not sell to us in time of war—but what this great German combine did was to exercise so great a power over the whole world, and not merely over the British Empire, that it made it almost, impossible for new concerns to compete with them in the British Empire, and we absolutely lost control even of metals which were within our own territories. If we can get rid of some of the power which that company had by doing that, we will establish British industries within the British Empire. My right hon. Friend asked me another question. He asked, "What good will this control within the British Empire do to affect the power of these German concerns in either neutral countries or in America?" There, again; it is not necessary to any business man to answer that question. The power of a combine like that in any country depends on the strength of the control which it has over the metals throughout the whole of the world. I will give an example, if I may, of the extent to which this German control has penetrated. Here is an article which my right hon. Friend, when he was President of the Board of Trade, sent me at the Colonial Office. It is by Dr. Liepmann:

That is a view of President Wilson. It is my view also. Apart altogether from the question of vindictiveness towards Germany—apart from that—if we are to regard war as a possibility in the future, unless we are to forget all the lessons which this War ought to have taught us, then we must realise that this German penetration meant not merely control of articles that were a necessity for us, but that it meant that in every case it was an outpost of political authority which, in the event of war, would be used against us. My right hon. Friend suggests that we should refer this to a Select Committee. I can assure him that I am as desirous as anyone in this House to avoid raising controversy if I can, and in spite of interruptions behind me I think that in the three years of war I have shown that I am not anxious to raise controversy. Why is it that in our view it is necessary to introduce this Bill? I shall tell the House. It is if not a direct war measure—and I am not sure that it is not a direct war measure, for, after all, we have heard a good deal about the position of the War. But we must not forget that the map of the world is also the map of the War, and that one of the strongest weapons which we and the Allies have in our hands is the certainty that unless our enemy can compel the United States and this country—to leave out the other Allies—to make peace, we have a weapon which makes it impossible for them to achieve their desires. Again let me remind my right hon. Friend that he omits a very important part of President Wilson's speech. In the very speech to which he referred President Wilson said this: It is precisely for this reason; because we think it necessary for our own security and interests—precisely the same reason that made President Wilson adhere to a tariff against Germany. It has not in itself any reference to a necessity for economic warfare, but I do think it essential now to-day to let our enemies know that we realise our power, and that if the time comes we shall not hesitate to use it. There is another reason. The main question at the end of this War will be the supply of raw materials. They will be scarce in every industry, and let our enemies remember this: that the longer the War lasts the less there will be to go round, and as the Allies will help themselves first the longer the War lasts the less there will be for Germany to receive of these essential commodities. Then it is said again, "All this is very good, but this Bill does not give it." [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I would remind the House of this. This question has been considered by a Committee which was set up, I believe, by my right hon. Friend himself, and let me remind him that he has forgotten how good his own selection was when he says it was only a Committee of traders.

My right hon. Friend said not consumers. He forgets that the Chairman of the Committee is himself one of the largest consumers of these metals. That is the point I wish to put before the House. This subject was considered by this Committee for a very long time. They came to the conclusion that this would not only help us in getting rid of this competition, of this German penetration, but they thought that till you had got rid of the danger of this company exercising its old influence within the British Empire it would be utterly impossible to expect other people to put money into the enterprises which are necessary if, when the War ends, we are to be in a position to deal with the metals which will be required by this country. My right hon. Friend says, "Why not refer it to a Select Committee?" Why should we? Let me remind the House of this. We all recognise, when we are talking in generalities, the need for measures of reconstruction; but when you come down to particular Bills, whatever Government brings them in, you find opposition in all quarters of the House. "The thing itself it not bad, but this particular way is very bad." My right hon. Friend had a sample of it in his Dyes Bill. I do not remember that he recommended that that should be referred to a Select Committee.

The right hon. Gentleman had better follow the whole example we set in the Dyes Bill. We gave full information to the House as to the grounds on which we went.

I hardly understand what my right hon. Friend means by that. This Bill is, at all events, a perfectly plain and self-contained Bill by itself. It is not in the least difficult to understand, and I am sure my right hon. Friend—though he made an allusion which rattier suggests it—does not take the view of some hon. Gentlemen, that because the Metallgesellschaft knows its own business therefore, when we are trying to interfere with its business, we should give it a Report, to show how we propose to do it, in order that it may guard against it, and that he does not suggest that we could publish the Report. This is a self-contained Bill; a Bill which the House can perfectly well understand, and is one which can easily be dealt with by the House. If you have a Select Committee it means a delay, the end of which no one can foresee; and I would remind my right hon. Friend of this. Speaking of the greater advantages in dealing with this German penetration possessed by the Colonies, he said:

In reality this is really a big issue of policy, and it is not a question to be decided by a sort of fault-finding with this or that particular Clause of a Bill. It is a very big question of policy. I know perfectly well—and I do not complain of it—that there are very many Members of this House who think that the right thing is when the War is over that we should deal with Germany without any change—[HON. MEMBFRS: "Never!"]—in precisely the same way as we dealt with her in the past. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] That is the view of a great many hon. Members—[An HON. MEMBER: "Ask them to stand up!"]—and a good deal of the other kind of opposition, as always happens in the House of Commons, is due to the rooted opposition which this means. That is a plain question of policy. To make it plain to the House, I mean the rooted opposition which is due to the desire that we should treat Germany in trade after the War precisely as before.

Of course it does. The right hon. Gentleman may say—he is quite entitled to say it, and has had an opportunity of saying it in argument—that the Bill does not produce that result; but I have tried to show, and I think with some little success, that the very essence of getting rid of that control is to have independence at home, and you cannot do that until we eliminate the German control of these companies. I say that is a big question. The House need not be in any delusion about it. In voting on this matter you are voting "Yes" or "No." Do you or do you not mean to make a change in this matter in our relations with Germany after the War is over?

Mr. PRINGLE rose—

The right hon. Gentleman, at the conclusion of his speech, announced that this Bill raised a large question of policy. That is an announcement which has been made on behalf of the Government for the first time in the concluding sentences of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, and if this Bill raises a large question of policy, I hold that the House is entitled to debate it before it goes to a Division. What is that question of policy? The right hon. Gentleman has put that question of policy in the following terms: "Is this country, or is it not, going to deal with Germany after the War on the same terms as it dealt with Germany before the War?" I regret very much that the right hon. Gentleman should put that question in that form. I am not one of those who are inclined to give a ready, easy, and definite answer to it. I believe that that is a question which should be dealt with with a great deal of caution and deliberation, and, further, I believe that a great many of the people both in this House and outside it, who are readiest with the answer to that question on their lips today, who are the most patriotic in the shouting, will be the first to buy from Germany after the War if they see the opportunity of making a shilling for themselves out of it. And I do not accept hon. Gentlemen in this House who applaud the question of the right hon. Gentleman—I understand the tactics of the right hon. Gentleman. He is making up a case for a General Election. It is the old story of the Boer War. "Every vote given for the Opposition was a vote given for the Boers." It is beginning to appear already, but the times are different.

As that is a statement of fact, let me say at once that it is absolutely unfounded.

I decline to accept the right hon. Gentleman's description of it. I say that it is a matter of inference from his speech to-day, and not only from his speech to-day, but from the speech that he made at the private meeting of the National Union of Conservative Associations. He has not published the accurate account of it. He there threatened a General Election. Whenever for a moment the Front Opposition Bench venture to lift their head, he immediately thinks he will drive them back into their attitude of acquiescence by the mere threat of a General Election. Yes, but he is making a mistake. These threats are losing their effect. They never had any effect here, and if the right hon. Gentleman ventures to go to the country to-day he will get a very different response from that which he expects. The Press—the doctored, engineered, machine-made Press—does not represent the country to-day. The Press represents Lord Northcliffe, Lord Rothermere, Mr. Hulton, and three or four other people—that is all—and the people of the country know it. Let him go down to the country, let him go to Birmingham, where the ex-Prime Minister is speaking to-night; let him go to Coventry, let him go to the North-East Coast or the Clydeside, and he will find that the one body of people who are universally unpopular in the country to-day is the present Government, and this pseudo patriotism, this attempt to make a monopoly of patriotism on their part is not going to cover up the methods with which they have disgraced their twelve months of administration.

I am not about to go into these questions, but if he is going to make this Bill a symbol of his flag and standard, we are willing to take him, and I believe that no Government has ever gone to the country under a more wretched flag than this. "Vote for the Government and non-ferrous metals." The real question, and I agree it is an important one for the future, is that the Germans should not have control over these metals in this country, but a definite question was put to the right hon. Gentleman which he failed signally to answer. The Leader of the House knows how to answer a question if he wants to. No man is better able to do so. He is a master of terseness and lucidity, but he used these qualities to conceal the answer which he was expected to give to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury. He was asked to show how this Bill gave control. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury showed how the measures previously taken in concert with Mr. Hughes had given control in regard to spelter, but the Leader of the House did not show, in the course of his speech, how, with regard to this most important article, any provision in the Bill was going to add anything to the control of spelter. He threw the weight of his authority over the theory propounded by the Minister for Reconstruction, that it was all due to German control that we had not spelter in this country in sufficient quantities before the War. Was there ever a more gross misstatement of the fact made by any Minister at any time? Everybody knows that it was not a matter of German control, but that it was simply a matter of German skill that made the strength of the German combine. They had a method of dealing with Australian concentrates that our chemists had not found out. Two methods were tried in this country, neither of which was successful. To attribute what is really due to the superior technical knowledge to this system of commercial control is deliberately to mislead the House, and when we find member of the Government after member of the Government travest- ing the facts in this way, we may be quite sure that this is a bad Bill, conceived for certain ulterior ends.

Take the question of the statement of facts in regard to lead, which has been impugned again and again, and there has been no answer to the arguments put forward and the statement of facts contained in the very able and conclusive speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Norfolk (Mr. Hemmerde). Take nickel. We have on the Front Bench the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Swansea (Sir A. Mond), who is able to speak authoritatively on the subject of nickel. I made an appeal to him the other night on a different subject, which he received with his usual good humour. I admit that there was a certain amount of persiflage on that occasion. But this is a serious matter. This is not a question of proportional representation. We are here on a very serious question with regard to the control of certain metals in this country, and we have a Bill introduced by the Government, of which he is a member, dealing with this metal of which he has more knowledge than any other member of this House or any other member of the Government. I would like to invite the right hon. Gentleman to tell the House whether he regards the proposal of the Government as a sound proposal in regard to nickel. I know that one of the advantages of not having had the Closure will be to enable us to hear the authentic voice of the nickel industry from one who has the privilege of membership of His Majesty's Government. What is the position? We know that there are two main sources of supply of nickel—New Caledonia and Canada. Was there any shortage of nickel for the British Government at the beginning of the War? Everybody acquainted with the facts know that the Government got all the supplies of nickel which they required. I will put another point on which the right hon. Gentleman may be able to help the Leader of the House. Is it not the case that a certain company in this country offered to extend the production of nickel?

Not only offered to do so, but did not ask for any financial assistance. This company would not think of such a thing. All they wanted were facilities to get the machinery for the extension. The proposal was turned down. Is that refusal on the part of the Government to be attributed to German control or to the machinations of the Metallgesellschaft? You are seeking to destroy German militarism, and are you going to succeed in destroying German metallism? What happened? An indication has been given on the point by the Member for Dewsbury, and he had something to do with that which I am not sure he is altogether proud of; I believe that he went into the American Nickel Corporation, and I put questions about it in this House on several occasions, but the Government always told us that it was not in the public interest to reply. I find that when it is not in the public interest to divulge anything, there is something shady about it, or something not very creditable to the Government, and when that is the case they are always very glad to call in aid the phrase that it is not "in the public interest." Here are facts which have come to me through the Canadian Press. Instead of taking this offer of the British company, which was competent to do the job, the sum of £1,200,000 was invested in the British-American Nickel Corporation, half in Government debenture stock, and half in first mortgage debentures, and they further guaranteed the interests on the debentures in this company for a long period of years, involving a further liability of about £5,600,000.

I know that my hon. and gallant Friend was a supporter of both Governments. I sit in the same place now with regard to both. The result of that throws some light on the whole situation. The Minister of Reconstruction told us it was important to have competition with the German combines, and the Leader of the House has spoken of having fresh competition in this country. What is important to know is, by whom is this competition going to be engineered? I think it very important that the House of Commons should know that. The House of Commons should also know whether, in return for this favour granted by the Government, this subsidised company is going to take over the obligation incurred by the British-American Nickel Corporation. I find that the right hon. Member for Swansea has gone. I know from the facts placed at my disposal that the speculation in the British-American Nickel Corporation has been extremely unfortunate. Had the Government taken the suggestion given by the British Company, of which the right hon. Gentleman probably knows something, they would have had a larger extension of the production of nickel in this country, apart from German control. The raw ore could have been smelted in Canada and refined here. What has happened? They have gone into this British-American Nickel Corporation, which is in a totally undeveloped state—its mines are absolutely of no use, and some of them will take two or three years before they produce anything at all; in fact, I understand that an application was made on behalf of this British-American Nickel Corporation to get from the Imperial Government assistance, but it declined to give any. That was the late Government—they knew a little more about the matter; at any rate, they knew that this corporation had not the water-power to get electricity for their works, and consequently they were not going to put money in them.

What I want to know is, what is to be done about this white elephant, to which the late Government committed itself, and to which the present Government also committed itself? The real point is this. It is not a question between German control and British control. Nobody in this House is in favour of German control, and I think the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Tyneside on the last occasion of debating this subject proved that conclusively. I believe every speech from either side of the House offering criticism to this Bill has been on the same lines. Some of the most cogent criticism of the Bill has come from members of the right hon. Gentleman's own party, and not from the members of the regular Opposition, if there is such a thing. This is really a matter as to whether this particular measure is going to increase the development of these particular metal industries or not. That is the question. It is a very simple question, it is a practical question, to which nearly every speech has been devoted. There has been no speech either from the Front Bench or from the group of hon. Members who support the Bill, including the hon. Member for Carnarvon, and there is no proposal so futile, no scandal so gross, and no anomaly so apparent that he is not willing to defend at the bidding of the Government. None of the hon. Members has directed his arguments to that proposition. We are all desirous to see a development of the industries here, but we wish to see these industries developed on sound lines. But this Bill is based on the single recommendation of a backstairs Committee, and I say, therefore, that the House is entitled to examine this matter for itself. If the Government, in its obstinacy, adheres to its decision, then I say it is the duty of the House to ignore the oft-repeated threat of the right hon. Gentleman, and to express its free mind upon this subject, so that this Bill may be consigned to oblivion with all the obloquy it deserves.

I desire to say a few words in support of this Bill. I have been asked to do so by the Federation of British Industries, to which the Leader of the House referred in the course of his speech. He stated that the federation were in favour of the Bill. I do not think he should have made a statement of that kind without the qualifications which I have to make in the resolution which was passed by the federation approving the Bill. The position is a very important one to the members of this federation of great and small manufacturing firms of this country, connected with which are a number of persons who are concerned in these metal industries. They use these metals in every one of their factories, and could not carry on their business without them. They have greater interests at stake in connection with this Bill than any other class. As I understand the matter, the Government are setting up some form of competition in the metal market, and thereby destroying the German lead. If this means in future that we are going to get these metals or ores cheaper than we have obtained them in the past, that is all to the good, and we welcome it. But the point which we consider of great importance is that we should have ample and prompt deliveries of the materials which we require for our works. We have had no reason to complain of the service which we have had in the past. It has been an efficient service, and we shall be satisfied if the service in the future is as efficient as the service has been in the past. Copper smelters are particularly concerned in this matter, and it is easy to see that it is a matter of vital consequence to them. Prompt delivery of raw materials is often a matter of far greater importance to the manufacturer than a fractional saving in cost.

We have only the haziest idea of the Government scheme, and I therefore ask across the floor of the House whether the Government will produce the Report of the Committee on whose advice they are acting to the committee of the federation. We want to know also who the Government have consulted in regard to this matter and this Bill. We look with the greatest suspicion upon some of the Government Advisory Committees. In many cases they have selected men for their Committees from political motives, men who they think will be likely to agree with or acquiesce in their schemes, and they call those men employers' representatives. The question I should like to ask the Government is, Why do they not go direct to the employers' associations and ask for representative men? I know they will not do it if they can help it. They might by so doing get opposition to their schemes, which, of course, is always to be avoided. I now ask the Government, will they lay their full scheme before the committee of the federation? We think the Government are going on the right lines in regard to this Bill. We want to help the Government. We are anxious to help the Government. But it is a matter of vital concern to us, and we claim the right to be consulted. We quite agree that it is of national importance to get rid of this insidious foreign control, and we are willing and anxious to help the Government. If the service of the new organisation that the Government are setting up as regards deliveries is satisfactory and efficient, there will probably be no objection to the period of five years, but we want security that it will be satisfactory. It would be a fatal matter to our foreign trade if from insufficient service orders were delayed or if we were delayed in the work of production, or if we did not get our metals on the best possible terms. Though I do not raise a definite objection to the five years at this stage, yet we reserve the full right, after examination of the scheme, to ask for a reduction of the period on the Committee stage. This Bill has been carefully examined by the Executive Council of the Federation, and they have passed the following resolution: depend upon it that trade will suffer. That is all I wish to say. I trust the Bill will pass its Second Reading without a Division, and be committed to a Committee of the Whole House, because we must, as I have already said, ask for explanations, and ask for security in regard to the administration of the Bill. It would never suit us if matters of the kind were dealt with, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested, by a Select Committee of this House.

I could not quite make out, when the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down mentioned "us" and "we," whether he was speaking for his constituents or for some vested interest. The general tenor of this Debate has been in advocacy of some vested interest or other. It seems to me that this Debate is symptomatic of the sort of debate we are going to have under Protectionist influence. We have a succession of hon. Members rising and speaking for some vested interest or other, and we find them entering into heated arguments as to whether or not they are personally benefiting by the measure; we have a series of other Members, apparently with briefs provided for them, crowning those briefs with a halo of eloquent peroration. I do not think this is a particularly desirable form of debate. I do not know that this way of putting forward national interests, and the patriotic flavour served up at the last moment by the Front Bench, adds either dignity to Parliament or acids to the possibility of discussing these very serious questions on unbiassed and reasonable lines. This Bill which we have had put before us for Second Beading is, in my opinion, the meanest Bill that has ever been brought before Parliament. It is put before us with a lot of high-sounding flummery, particularly in the Press now, and by the Chancellor of the Exchequer—high-sounding patriotic flummery about the Germans. When, however, you get down to the kernel of the whole thing, it is a Bill to smash the firm of Henry Merton and Company, the father or grandfather of whose chairman, Mr. Henry Merton, was, I believe, a German.

Although I myself am one who is not generally averse to attacking vested interests, yet when I see the whole force of the British Government brought into play in order to destroy the business of one particular firm in this country, I must say that I resent it as an un-English proceed- ing. I know nothing about Henry Merton or the partners. I believe one of them, Beer, spells his name in the German fashion, and is, or has been, associated with the Metallgesellschaft. Here are a couple of British citizens, who have in some way taken up British citizenship before the War, and these are the sort of people who have been selected by a serious Act of Parliament in order that their business may be penalised! It is, without doubt, the last word in intolerance and Prussianism. I am quite aware that I am now speaking to a Front Bench in which the Government are represented by the Labour Member for Stockport and another Labour Member for somewhere in Scotland. I know that at one time my hon. Friend who represents, I think, Linlithgowshire, possessed Liberal instincts, and believed in what are Liberal principles. How he reconciles himself to supporting a Bill like this directed against one particular firm, when everyone knows that an act of legislation to be reasonable and honest should be directed to deal with the whole community, and deal with it equably, I do not understand. We have had this Bill put forward as the only means of putting an end to the German control of the metal industry. I have listened to the speeches from the Front Bench. Not one of the hon. or right hon. Gentlemen who have spoken from the Front Bench have ventured to explain how this Bill is going to prevent German control of the non-ferrous industry—not a single one. One of them said that countless lives had been lost owing to German control of non-ferrous metals. Others have pointed out that this non-ferrous metal control by the Germans has shoved up the price of metals against the consumers. Others have pointed out that unless we kick the Germans somehow or another we shall lose the War. All these opinions may be valuable or they may be valueless. But what I want to draw the attention of the House to is this: that not one single one of these speakers has attempted to explain how this particular Bill will stop German control of the non-ferrous metal industry.

It is a Bill, frankly, to prevent either enemy aliens or people who have been German subjects before they became British subjects trading in this country in non-ferrous metals. That is the whole of the Bill. It prevents a German enemy trading in non-ferrous metals. But that does not do anything whatever to stop German control of the raw material of the non-ferrous metal industries. It does not in the least interfere with the Germans buying up and holding up the whole of the raw materials of this industry. They can still control it, whether a man who is a German enemy is allowed to trade in this country or not. The control is a control of the raw material, not the power to deal, or smelt, or buy, or sell, or ship these non-ferrous metals. As a matter of fact, in spite of repeated applications, we have not yet had from the Government any sort of detail as to the licence which is to be granted by the Board of Trade to the people who apply for licence to trade in these metals. I do not yet know, and I do not suppose anybody in this House does yet know—nor can the Under-Secretary for the Board of Trade tell us—whether one of the conditions of the licence—if the licence has any conditions at all, and, if so, what—whether one of the conditions will be that the trader is not to sell his goods to Germany, not to buy his goods from Germany. That has been left definitely blank. We do not know—nobody knows—not even the Board of Trade—what the conditions of the licence will be. We are, in fact, giving a blank cheque to the Board of Trade, and asking them to take the Bill to see who is or who is not liable or able to trade in these non-ferrous metals in this country, to see to the issue of licences to these people containing different conditions of which we know not a single one. Surely we have a right to know whether one of the terms will or will not be that these traders, whatever their names may be, and whether their fathers were British subjects and their grandfathers Germans, or whether they themselves are British or naturalised British subjects, shall trade with Germans in Germany or not? Nor do we know in the least whether the terms of the licence concern themselves, and the method in which that particular licensee is backed and financed. What will it matter whether a man's name is Jones or Smith, or whether a very pronounced Anglo-Saxon be his patronimic, if that man is under the influence of the Metallgesellschaft of Frankfurt? How do we know that that man will not be financed from the most dangerous quarters in Germany? We do not know what proof has to be given as to whether or not a man is in any sense financed or backed by German capital. We do not know.

The terms of the licences are not in the Bill. It merely states that these people are to apply for a licence, which will be granted if the Board of Trade agrees.

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will read the Schedule, he will see that it is in the Bill.

I have read the Schedule over and over again, and there is no statement in the Bill or in the Schedule to lead me to understand what are the conditions of the licence, or that it will ever prevent a man from trading with Germany, or will ever see that there is in no degree a participation in the matter by Germans, or there is German support! All this is a matter of considerable importance. But this measure is, to my mind, merely a sample of the sort of measures that the Board of Trade is ingeminating at the present time. The fact is, there has been for a long time among the public trading classes in this country a great deal of suspicion against the Board of Trade. They seem to have got in the Board of Trade a large number of the Fabian Socialist type—the sort of type of public official who are confident they can manage everyone else's business much better than he can manage it himself. They are only too anxious to take into their hands not only the non-ferrous metal industries, but, indeed, all the industries that come their way. Give them the chance, and they will show how England can be run on really Prussian lines.

I went to the Board of Trade, and interviewed some of the officials about their interference in a trade with which I am more intimately connected, and I ventured to express regret that the Board of Trade were attempting to build up a certain monopoly for certain firms in this country. What was I told by this new brand of officials we have in the public service? I was told. "Oh, we ought to give them some sort of advantage in order to recompense them for their interest in starting this new business. After all, we have changed all our views about Free Trade nowadays, and one must remember that the War has taught us a lot of things." I ventured to express my doubts as to whether the War had altered the laws of political economy, and whether people who wanted an article cheap and good were likely to get it cheap and good from a monopoly owner. But that made no impression whatever on the Board of Trade. They were quite satisfied they knew the pottery business a great deal better than any potter, and that they knew what was good for the whole of the commercial classes of this country. If that is the sort of spirit one finds among the permanent officials now—an entire change from the attitude of permanent officials before this War who were not politicians, and did not understand how to run everybody's business—one can understand the process which has been at work behind this Bill.

9.0 P.M.

This Bill, which is intended to destroy the German control of the non-ferrous metal industries, will, as everybody knows, not affect that control in the very least. What does control mean? The control of an industry means the ownership of raw materials which are required for that industry. For instance, the United States Steel Trust control to a large extent the deposits of iron ore in the United States of America. They control these raw materials by owning them, and only working a certain amount. In the same way the Metallgesellschaft control a considerable number of raw materials throughout the world. They control them in Canada, in Australia, and in the Straits Settlements, and elsewhere. They own these raw materials, and by the ownership of the mines where these raw materials are got they can so limit the supply from those mines that they can get their own monopoly price for the product. They can decide who shall and who shall not be allowed to buy. It is the ownership of raw materials which constitutes control in any industry you like to mention. It is notorious that the great German steel combines have gone back to the control of raw materials. To come along with a Bill like this, and to say that by preventing a man with a German name from buying and selling or handling the raw material, or the smelted product, you are going to affect one jot or tittle the control of the Metallgesellschaft over raw materials, is simply playing with a very difficult problem before us at the present time. We know quite well that if you have a spiderous web of firms controlling these raw materials all over the world, there is in their hands a power to exact a monopoly price for every ounce of the product they produce. You do not stop it by this Bill, but there are ways of dealing with the problem which are perfectly simple, only unfortunately—I mean unfortunately for the Board of Trade, who introduced this Bill—they could not be directed against one particular firm in this country—an English firm, two of whose partners have German ancestors—but would be against all owners of raw materials, and you would have all the vested interests in this House and elsewhere lined up against an attack of that description, and protesting against any form of interference with legitimate trade. If you base your taxation on the capital value of those minerals before worked, then you will break the metal combine and force the hands of anyone who attempts to hold up raw materials against the consumer. If you still allow the owners of raw materials to dole out in small quantities the amount of metal they will allow the world to use, they will still get a monopoly price, they will still fleece the consumer, and they will still make it impossible for trade to be really free, or for industries to develop, in this or any other country, but they will get their price.

This Bill does not deal with the question. This Bill is the ordinary common or garden product of exasperation, mixed with a want of intelligence. Somebody has to draft a Bill, and some unintelligent clerk draws up this sort of production and puts it before the Minister, who has not time to understand it, gets it backed by a certain number of Ministers, and it comes before this House, where every speaker picks holes in it, and every association of employers outside this House points out the fallacies and the flaws and impossibilities of the solution proposed by the Board of Trade. Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the name of the Leader of the House, gets up and says that if we do not vote for this Bill we are voting for Germany, and therefore do not deserve to be re-elected to this House, and that we ought to have short shrift. That is not a travesty of the thing, but an actual fact. If there has been one speaker in this House ready to defend this Bill without having a vested interest in it, I should like to know who he is.

May I ask if there are any speakers on the other side who have not a vested interest? The argument cuts both ways.

:I agree. On the one side you have people who want to get a monopoly, and on the other side those who have a present monopoly. I have no interest in either of them. When I see somebody desiring to get a monopoly in the name of patriotism urging Parliament to give them that monopoly it makes me sick and tired of patriotism. Hon. Members say that we have to be protected from Germany. I want to be protected from Germany and I do not want to see their faces in this country again, but you are not going to do that with a Bill like this. If this Bill is passed the Board of Trade will be enthroned over us more firmly than at the present time. Some hon. Members have had experience of a system of private licensing. You get a licence for a particular firm and then you are bombarded day after day by traders in your constituency to get some little bit of privilege or other for them from some small Committee.

Traders know what licensing means. Here you are setting up a fresh system of licensing, leaving to some official in the Board of Trade who may be straight or he may not, who may be a man who may be affected by family connections, the entire discretion as to whether some man's business is to be crushed out or not. I cannot sanction that. We share the very reasonable desire to smash the Germans for a time, and to protect our own industries, but I do not think we should have this sort of measure foisted upon us and be compelled to submit to it for five years.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken said he shared the desire of some hon. Members to smash the Germans for a time. May I point out that that is the first time that anyone who is opposing this Bill has advanced an argument of that descrip- tion? We have had arguments from them all in the other direction. The argument has been that when the War ends and peace is concluded then there are to be no further feelings in the matter, and we are to forget and forgive at once. The hon. and gallant Member seems to think that that is the more reasonable conclusion. With regard to what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) said in his speech he appeared to lay great stress on the fact that there had been an exaggeration by the Government in regard to the shortage of spelter at the beginning of the War. It is certain that we should have been short of spelter if we had had sufficient guns, and had been able to use the munitions we ought to have used at the beginning of the War. During the whole of the first eighteen months of the War we were hopelessly outmatched because we had not the guns. If we had been properly equipped with guns for a modern war, we should undoubtedly have been very short of these metals at the beginning of the War. Why have we now got such an emphatic opposition? An hon. and learned Member on this side made an admirable speech, but it would have been far more effective if we had not seen the statements which have appeared in the supplement to the "Metals Gazette." Why have we such an emphatic opposition? Is it that hon. Members desire that Germany should be able to have agents running through all our industries after the War? Is it that they are really fearful that we might seriously affect the interests of Germany by this Bill; or what is the reason? From the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury it was perfectly clear that so long as he was a member of the Government, and saw how imperative it was that we should defend the interests of this country, he was prepared to approve of the Paris Resolutions, which laid down the principles of this Bill; but the moment he is out of the Government he becomes a party man; and I believe I am representing the opinion of a large number of people in this country—and certainly everyone who belongs to the National party—when I say that the country is looking to some effort in this House to stamp out German influence, and I congratulate the Government on having shown one of their first inclinations in that direction. I am sure that nine out of every ten of men in this country will be behind them in this effort, and I hope the Government will stand by the Bill, and only alter it in the direction of strengthening it.

Germany controlled the white metal trades before the War, and this Government has determined, in the interests of national safety, that the Germans shall not control them after the War. That is what I understand is the real object of the Bill. The German metal octopus, which stretched its tentacles throughout the world, was part of Germany's war machinery, and it is forgotten that in nearly every case where Germany took up a great industry of this kind, and where the German Government stood by German industries, that that was part of her war scheme. We have only got to look back to the time of the Agadir incident, and even when that settlement was arrived at the French were forced to give up, I believe, some mines to Germany. Germany's war on industries has always been preparatory to her war by arms. We cannot believe that Germany is going to change her plans at the conclusion of the War, or her policy of blood and iron, which is rooted in her whole national principles. The control, direct or indirect, of these great German combines has spread over so many British mines and smelting and refining works in peace-time that we find that Germany controlled practically the lead supply of the world, and it was the same with spelter.

It is interesting to hear hon. Gentlemen, speaking as experts, declare that Germany had no hold over the copper industry when we remember that one of the greatest authorities in this House has very clearly shown how absurd that contention was. It was the same with spelter. Before the War three-quarters of our supply of spelter was under German control, and Gemany was then on the high road to a complete monopoly in what we call the vital metals all over the face of the earth. Queen Elizabeth set up spelter works in this country because she believed in British products for British people, and she ordained that on no occasion should there be more than eight strangers connected with this smelter industry, and also no partnership and interest of strangers was allowed to exceed one-third of the total. His Majesty's Government in time of stress have gone back to the great ideals of Queen Elizabeth, and I congratulate them. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Anderson) may have international ideals, but Queen Elizabeth had national ideals, and she was not prepared to allow her country to be exploited by those who sought to be our enemies and certainly not by those with whom we were engaged in mortal conflict. We had a speech from a learned Gentlemn (Mr. Hemmerde) who quoted Norway as a case why we should not pass this Bill. As a matter of fact, the Norwegians say that these vital metals must be in Norwegian hands, not for five years but for all time, and the law lays it down that only native-born subjects of native parents shall own a mine or be chief engineer of any of the mineral deposits there. It is the same with several other countries. We, after our experience in this frightful war, are only asked to do what these countries have always done in peace time. If Germany is not to have control of the world's metals after the War, it is perfectly obvious that we must act now. There is no time for delay. We must g ve those who are prepared to take advantage of the situation the opportunity of getting ready before the War ceases. Five years is not an unreasonable time after the War to give them some chance of competing with these great German interests.

The hon. Member for West Aberdeen (Mr. J. M. Henderson) objected to this Bill, because it was a boycot of Germany for five years. After the lifetime of hell that Germany has forced upon us, is it too much to ask that we should have a period of transition of five short years to give us an opportunity of at least endeavouring to prevent this thing happening again? The hon. Gentleman with extraordinary inconsistency stated that none of us would want to have personal relations with Germans after the War. But he wants to have trading relations with Germans, thereby enriching our enemies and giving them the opportunity of recovering after the War. I wonder what the men who are fighting and dying at this moment for the hon. Member and other hon. Gentlemen in this House think of this kind of discrimination. At last we confidently believe that we are going to save the world from the rapacity of the butchers of Berlin. The hon. Member for West Aberdeen said, "Oh no, we will not clasp the hands of these Germans, but we will take their cheques. We will immediately re-establish trading arrangements with them." He knows perfectly well that this means giving Germany the opportunity of accumulating her wealth for the building of fresh machines of destruction in days to come. By way of a final argument he said, "Germany was our best customer before the War." That is not true. Our Dominions have been our best customers for many years. Although their population may be small, they have certainly been our best customers per head of population. Her trade, he said, was £80,000,000 a year. Have we spent £6,000,000,000 sterling, or whatever sum it may be, in order to re-establish this German trade, and at the conclusion of the War give Germany back the whole of her £80,000,000 of imports? Surely this country may have some slight pause after the completion of this horrible nightmare in which to set its house in order, and to prepare its industries, so that the sword may once more be turned into the ploughshare.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) said how wrong it was for us even to talk about such a thing. Why, Germany has been talking about nothing else, and has been trying to effect an economic arrangement with Austria-Hungary and Turkey, as is known by everyone in this House. The right hon. Gentleman thought it was not to the point when I interrupted him, and said that whereas our Government were merely proposing that for five years an enemy subject should ask for a licence before engaging in the metal industry. Germany was saying to Russia, which she believes she has got down, that for fifteen years she must have complete control of her cereal exports. When we have that kind of speech uttered in this House it makes one wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman has not suddenly dropped down from the clouds and does not realise what has been going on for the last three years. I want to say a word or two about the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury). I am sorry that a letter which I wrote to the newspapers has been read by one who must have been an opponent of mine in this House as an attack upon Liberal Members. It was nothing of the sort. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, the hon. Member for Paddington (Mr. A. Strauss), and some of their colleagues are probably more culpable than those who are associated with the Liberal party, for the simple reason that the Liberal party may find in the Bill something which affects their old principles.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London has no excuse whatever, and the arguments which he advanced the other day, in my opinion, were faulty from start to finish. He makes very much of the fact that this is another case of Government control. I have watched with dismay the interference of the Government in many industries, but I realise their difficulties, and the whole nation ought to realise the difficulties with which they are faced. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, who ought to know better, calls this Government control of the same kind as that in other industries, I really think it is time that his constituents should have their attention called to his Rake's Progress in this House. Can it be called control of an industry when you simply insist that everyone shall have a licence? Obviously not. It is simply controlling Germans who desire to have trading arrangements in this country. That is very different. It may be irksome to have to ask for a licence and even once or twice to produce your book, but it is a little thing compared with what our people have done in this country, and I can only say that the man who opposes this Bill on those grounds is a very poor patriot. It is not very much to ask a few individuals to go through this very simple proceeding.

There is another question which I desire to bring before the House. It has been said in many speeches that this measure is of no use whatever during the War, and that it ought to be postponed till after the War. I do not at all agree. With a Blockade Department such as we have had in the past—I believe it has reformed recently—it is most necessary to have a measure of this kind during the War. I do not know whether the House is aware that there is a zinc mine in Cumberland which was bought up about twenty years ago by the Société Anonyme des Mines de la Vieille Montagne. It turned out to be one of the richest mines in the world, and the syndicate which bought it is one of the most powerful syndicates in the world. During the War, I believe in 1914, 1915, and 1916, zinc ores were exported to the extent of fifty-six cargoes, carrying possibly a total of 130,000 tons. They left this country, as the newspapers mentioned at the time, for the La Campine works in Holland. The La Campine works are not in Holland but in Belgium. I dare say the Government also thought the works were in Holland and permitted the ore to go in that direction. The fact remains that these works had been captured by the Germans, and there is every reason to believe that the zinc ore went to the La Campine works, which the Board of Trade might have imagined were in Holland, but in any event it went on to the La Campine works in Belgium. It may have been stopped en roufe , but that was its original destination. Everyone outside the Foreign Office knows, and has known for a long time, that Germany had got control of practically every industry in Belgium which might be useful in a time of war. Anyhow, this industry and these La Campine works are completely German now. How can it be doubted that we were exporting zinc ore in such a tremendous quantity to Germany for the manufacture of sulphuric acid, which is essential to the industrial life of Germany? Did the Government arrest the manager for trading with the enemy? Presumably they seized the mine, and have taken steps to keep it British for all time. What did it mean? That you had got German influence all the time through this Belgian concern, which was controlling an enormously rich zinc mine in this country. That is a sufficient reason why we should see that the Bill is carried at once, even during the War

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tyneside (Mr. J. M. Robertson) said the other day, as other hon. Members have said to-night, that this measure was directed against one particular firm. He did not tell the House who this poor little unfortunate firm was. He did not mention that it was the greatest metal trust dealing with these metals throughout the world. If he were here, I should like to ask him when the leading Cobdenite professor became the leading protector of trusts? It is almost impossible to understand how the right hon. Gentleman can defend this great German trust, unless it be, indeed, that it is a German trust, and the sickly sentimental idea that whatever you do you must not hurt your enemies, an idea which prevails in a large number of places in this country, and even in the speeches of hon. Members in this House. The right hon. Gentleman also told us that we had not got the skill and that we were being beaten by the Germans because we were too foolish to achieve these results in the spelter industry. Somebody else in this country was too foolish. The critics never knew that the raw materials were in the hands of this great German trust, the consequence of which was that there was not much encouragement for anyone to start spelter or zinc works in this country so long as this great German combine had control, as it had then, of the vast majority of the metals and raw materials of the industry. That is why we did not set up smelters in this country. The nation has to judge whether it was the trading authorities at the Board of Trade, over which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tyneside partly presided, or the traders of this country who were the foolish people. Take the case of lead. When you tried to establish lead smelting in this country the pet trust of the right hon. Gentleman controlled the raw material, the consequence being that it was difficult to compete with them. The trust the critics want to re-establish immediately after the War controlled the supply and output. That was the serious position. They drove up the price of lead in the four years preceding the War by 40 per cent., surely meaning that Germany was determined to see that as little as possible of that lead went to another country.

Was that a combine of English smelters with German smelters to shut down an English mine?

I do not know. At any rate, it shows that that sort of mixture of British and German interests is a question that wants looking into most carefully. So far as the right hon. Gentleman is concerned, I am not so anxious to defend trusts as he is. I shall be only too glad to see anything which will break down any sort of monopoly of this description, but, if there is a trust, I would rather have a British than a German trust. We have heard a great deal with regard to the question of naturalisation. It is a monstrous suggestion that for the sake of the safety of this country we cannot refuse to grant licences to any of our enemies or to those who were our enemies for five years after the War, for fear that somebody might be offended with respect to naturalisation. The Bill does not denaturalise anybody. Germans have been sitting in this House and might sit in the House in future. It does not preclude them from carrying on this trade. They have to apply for a licence. If they are known to be loyal British citizens and this has become their country of adoption, of course they will get a licence. The fear of hon. Members in that respect is absolutely ridiculous. The opposition to this Bill has come from those who are interested in the metal industry, and those who possibly may be, directly or indirectly, interested in the great metal trust of Germany, the Metallgesellschaft. It has also come from those who claim to be economists, and who are economists all the time, and from very rich cosmopolitan financiers, who at the present time are the greatest danger in this country. I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that any opposition which comes from those quarters to a measure of this description will have a most disastrous effect on the country, because it means that when the poor, who are suffering equally with the rich, mentally and otherwise, see multimillionaires in this House opposing a measure which appears to be obviously in the interests of the State, they will have a poor opinion of the House of Commons, and the consequence will be that there will be less confidence in the country. Australia has led the way in this matter. She has preserved her ores for the British Empire. It has been a preferential gift to this country. The least we can do is to see that when these ores come to this country they do not pass into enemy hands, but that we shall do everything in our power to re-establish more strongly those great works we shall want so badly for our soldiers and sailors when they come back, and to see that this great trade does not go back into German hands.

The hon. and gallant Member who has just addressed the House was always perfectly consistent in his attitude towards this subject before the War. We recollect his attitude on various occasions when such subjects were debated, and so this evening we are not surprised that he is a whole-hearted supporter of this Bill. Having listened to the Debate on the previous day and to-day, I think I am right in saying that his speech is really the first constructive speech made from any bench except the Treasury Bench. But this is essentially a trade question. The President of the Board of Trade, a few months ago, brought forward his trade bank proposals. To-night we are discussing another Bill which has been reported by a Committee set up by that Department. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (General Croft) told us that the opposition to it came from vested interests, economists, and cosmopolitan financiers. My opposition is due to the fact that, so far as I can see, the Bill is not conceived in the public interest. We have this Committee appointed by the President of the Board of Trade consisting almost entirely of men directly interested in this question. If the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Thomas) was Chairman of a Committee appointed by the Government to consider the wage question and recommended an advance in wages to all working men in this country of £l a week, and a Minister said he was supported in his proposal by the unanimous recommendation of that Committee, I can imagine the reception that proposal would meet with in this House. That simile applies to this Bill. It is supported and recommended by a committee of interested people. We all know the numerous committees which the Government has set up, and which are considering trade questions which will determine the trade policy of this country in years to come, and no doubt they are composed of interested people in their various trades. My right hon. Friend has suggested that this Bill should be considered by a Select Committee. During the next year or two this House will consider from time to time many trade questions, and the Government of the day, no matter what its complexion may be, must readjust the system, so as to enable this House to consider with more accurate information before it—so as to give an opinion on the questions involved in this or in future Bills.

This Bill, if it becomes law, will be carried into practice by business men associated, no doubt, with the Board of Trade. During this War many able business men have thrown up their business and given their services to the State. But can we expect these men, when peace is declared, to give up their time and services to the nation as they have done during the last three years? If that be so, what will happen? Instead of the able men whom we have to-day giving us their services, we shall have business men employed by Government Departments who are anxious to retain their salaries in those Departments and not anxious to return to their business. Therefore, we may expect not to see in the future the same high standard of ability and knowledge which business men to-day associated with the Government show. Therefore, I think this House will be very slow to accept this or any other proposal laying shackles upon British trade in the future. The Minister of Reconstruction of all men should be able to point out the advantages of this Bill. For more than two years he was associated with the Ministry of Munitions. He knew better than anyone the dangers which this country has faced during the last three years through the lack of munitions. My hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hemmerde) challenged the Minister of Reconstruction to point out where our munitions supply during the first two years of the War had fallen short through lack of the metals which are dealt with in this Bill. The point the right hon. Gentleman made, that we had lost men through our inability to find the necessary materials during the first four months of the War, made a great impression on my mind. But so far as I can understand the statements made by my hon. and learned Friend have not been replied to, and the main point put forward by the right hon. Gentleman therefore falls to the ground.

There is another point which has not been put before the House. This Bill is going to give a certain privilege to certain people. Why should not the State, if it gives this privilege to these people, take care to see that the profits which the State permits them to earn are going back into the coffers of the State? Surely the House should insist that their profits should be ear-marked for the benefit of the community as a whole! I can quite imagine that if that proposal were put to the owners of metals and the metal market they might not be so anxious to accept the Bill. Representing, as we do, the public interest, I intend to insist and press upon the Government that where they give a particular privilege to a particular class that class shall not receive that benefit, but it shall pass into the coffers of the State. I hope my right hon. Friend will press his Amendment to a Division, and we may test the feeling of the House on this point.

The hon. Member has based a part of his argument upon the interest of the owners of these non-ferrous metals. It is a Bill dealing not with the owners of metals, but with the purchasers of metals. It says distinctly that it relates to firms which are dealing. The dealers are mainly the buyers and the sellers. When you speak of the Metal Exchange in London you are not speaking of a number of owners of metals, but of dealers. In fact, if you go through nearly all the arguments which have been put forward by the opponents of this Bill, as far as I have heard them, they have all seemed to me to be based on one or other misconception of the facts of the case. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Commander Wedgwood) for example treated us for a long time to a speech which proved nothing except that either he had not read the Bill, or if he had, had failed to understand it. He made great play with the assertion that it is directed against someone with a German name. He used that phrase over and over again. There is nothing whatever in the Bill that strikes at any person with a German name. There is nothing in this Bill that strikes at a naturalised subject even of enemy origin, provided he is carrying on a business which in the opinion of the Government is expedient for this country. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Commander Wedgwood) will read the Bill and digest it he will find that the Board of Trade are bound to issue licences to any person who does not come under one or other of the five conditions in the Schedule. These five conditions, except the first, apply equally to any man, be he a British subject or an alien or a naturalised subject, and the conditions which he has to comply with are very different from the conditions as stated by my hon. and gallant Friend. The main condition is that the company or firm should not be operated under an agreement or understanding which enables enemy influence to operate or conduct the business. Is any hon. Member in favour of establishing in this country or continuing in this country businesses the policy of which is influenced by the enemy? I do not believe that there is a single Member who would go into the Lobby in support of that condition. The next point is, that a company or firm or individual must not be subject directly or indirectly to enemy influence or association. Is it the desire of any hon. Member that businesses should be carried on in this country subject to the influence of an enemy State or of an enemy controlled corporation? I believe the House would be absolutely unanimous in agreeing that these Clauses are perfectly right and that the conditions apply equally to a British-born subject, an alien subject, or a naturalised enemy subject. Then there comes the Clause which deals with a person who was a subject of an enemy State during a certain period; but that must be read in conjunction with Sub-sec- tion 2 of Clause 1, which gives power to the Board of Trade, if they are of opinion for any special reason, that the grant of a licence is expedient to issue a licence. If any innocent person, perhaps a naturalised subject, acts in a manner which is calculated to be beneficial to this country and applies to the Board of Trade for a licence to carry on his business, can be believe that that licence will be refused? I cannot believe it.

I will not take up time by going into the large number of small matters ort which opponents of the Bill have taken refuge. In listening to the speeches, I noticed that they have abounded in detail on small points and have avoided, the real crux of the Bill, which, as I understand it is this: We all know it has practically been admitted on all sides of the House, and it is, in fact, indisputable, that there exists in this non-ferrous industry what has been aptly termed an octopus which has its body in a hostile country. We know the brains of that octopus are hostile brains, and we know that the octopus extends its tentacles to all parts of the world, to parts of the British Empire, to parts of Allied countries, and to this country. Is that a state of things which opponents of this Bill admire or desire, or are wishful to continue? I do not think so. If they do not wish it to continue, what do they propose to do? Can they do better than is proposed in this Bill, which, as I understand it, is designed to strike a blow at the tentacles of that octopus which are fastened in this country, and to weaken the tentacles of the octopus, which it is admitted is controlled by hostile brains? I do not think that even the most prejudiced of us could imagine that that octopus would have its tentacles in this country for purposes beneficent to this country, and if the purpose is not beneficent, surely it must be a purpose which we ought to combat! Therefore, in spite of the opposition of some of my Friends—I have friends, I am sorry to say, who differ with me on this point—I am determined to go into the Lobby and to record my vote, not in favour of the German octopus, but against the German octopus.

We have been told to-night that those who have been opposing this Bill are, many of them, rich cosmopolitan financiers. I am not a rich cosmopolitan financier. We have been told also that they are on the side of some terrible octopus, whose tentacles are stretched out all over the world—a controlled octopus. I know nothing of that particular octopus, and have no desire to be in any degree in its teeth. I object very strongly to monopoly, whether it be German monopoly or British monoply, and I object to this Bill in the first place because, in my opinion, it is based upon a report by interested parties, and is designed to favour interested parties. We are in great danger at this time of seeing the elevation of private interests into public policy, with all the idealism of national salvation behind it. We are in danger of this, that the duration of the War is going to be used for the purpose of helping those private interests to gratify their own private ends. I object to that very strongly. We have had a very dreadful story told to us by the President of the Board of Trade and the Minister of Reconstruction, and various other people, that a German company, with its headquarters in Frankfurt, has been controlling certain metals, like tin, copper, lead and spelter. If the story they tell were true—if there were no exaggeration in it, it would, in my opinion, be, among other things, a great testimonial to the extraordinary efficiency of German capitalism, and it would be a reflection upon British capitalism and the organised capitalism of other countries. It is something more than that. It would be quite impossible for any German monopolist firms to gain a footing in this country unless British firms were prepared to allow them, and, indeed, to help them. There is no compulsion on the part of people in this country to buy from enemy firms or associations, and if British firms were in alliance with this German octopus, then we should know who and what they are.

10.0 P.M

What is the remedy proposed with regard to this matter? The remedy for this very serious state of things is that every trader in certain metals shall have a Government licence granted by the Board of Trade, and that licence is going to be renewable once a year. I assert that among other things this undoubtedly is going to benefit certain traders. It is going to help create a monopoly for certain traders, and I have no doubt that one of the first results will be to further this very movement for trust control, against which many hon. Members have been pro- testing. If British traders are going to get the full advantage of this new arrangement they are bound to act together, and they will organise into one big combine or trust. Where will the public interest be in that regard? Will they do it from the standpoint of the public interest, from the standpoint of the interests of the customers, or from the standpoint of extorting larger profits for themselves? If matters were to remain as now there would be great uncertainty on the part of any traders as to what their future is going to be, and whether their licences are going to be renewed. It seems to me we are beginning more and more to adopt the policy of mixing up business with politics in a very objectionable way indeed. You are going to get log-rolling and favouritism and the graft which they have in America. You are going to provide an incentive on the part of business firms to try and bribe Government officials in order that they may deal with Government Departments. That is coming along more and more. We have seen again and again within quite recent times that it is apparently part of the policy of the Government to try and mix up arrangements and understandings with one industry after another. The farmers have had their prices guaranteed for six years. Then, again, in the oil industry; the Government are investing millions of money and are helping to establish an oil cartel. Now this sort of thing is coming along with regard to industries in metals. The Bill surely savours of all the evil features of State bureaucracy. First the firms must supply all the information asked of them. They must hand over their books and letters. There are to be penalties for certain offences, and the trade is to be fettered for five years after the War. We are told that, despite all this, the London Metal Exchange are backing the Bill. Why are they doing that? In my opinion it is because they expect to get something out of it; they expect to get certain advantages from it. I say it is not to the interest of this House at any rate to do that. I will deal with the question how we ought to combat the German monopoly. I do not take the same stand as some of my hon. Friends on this matter. I do not take my stand on any abstract doctrine, and I am going to say this, that if it is the real intention of the nation from the standpoint of the nation to keep control over certain metals then this Bill is not enough. You would have to do something much more than that. In this matter I go much further than most hon. Members do. As has been said, the Metal Exchange is supporting the Bill. In my opinion it does so because it hopes to get financial advantage out of it. This is an extension of the arrangement by which the Government apparently hopes to bribe one trade after another. Providing the statement is true that we need to control from the standpoint of national safety and advantage certain metals, why should we put monopoly right almost into the hands of certain traders? If we are going to do it at all, it is necessary to go the whole hog. If we are going to do it, the nation must retain in its own hands control over those industries and metals. But there will not be as much enthusiasm for that on the part of many backers of this Bill. There will be no great enthusiasm for complete public ownership and working of these metals. That is I know an arguable point. One can argue for or against it, but there would be no question of any private interests dipping into the public purse.

If this thing is to be done, it would be far better to do it from the standpoint of public ownership and control. I do not want that control to be left to the politician. Politicians have made a bad job of it where they have undertaken control, and one of the most appalling things during the War has been the incompetence, stupidity, and unenlightened methods adopted by Government Departments. If you are going to have control under public ownership it must be industrial control, in the hands of those who know and understand the business; otherwise this thing will be messed up as other things have been. Therefore, if the story is true which has been put forward from the Front Bench as to a German monopoly, and certainly no one desires to see a German monopoly over metals vital to this country, then this measure is not going to deal effectively with it. You need some much bigger measure, and that measure in my opinion should be along the line of definite public ownership and control in these metals. Then you can say you are putting forward this policy, whether it be the best policy or not I will not say, from the standpoint of the public good and of the safety of the nation, without giving any advantage to any trader or group of traders in the country.

I should not have intervened in this Debate had it not been for the fact that I was one of those appointed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) when he was at the Board of Trade to assist the Department on a certain Committee, the duty of which was to inquire into the working of German businesses in this country. That Committee is still sitting. I have one or two reasons to put forward in support of this Bill, and it is with these I will venture to trouble the House. The last speaker went into a rather broad statement of policy in which I do not propose to follow him. I will only say that although we have advanced towards State Socialism he must admit we must walk before we can run, and this Bill does seem to be a step in that direction. It has been subject to a good deal of general discussion, and it seems to me that the hon. Member for Lanark (Mr. Pringle) and his party have taken up a rather curious attitude in regard to Bills which the Government have introduced recently. They opposed the Petroleum Bill because the landlords were to get too much. They opposed the Coal Bill because the coal-owners were to get too little, and now they are strongly opposing this Bill because they think it is a little hard on the Metallgesellschaft. I do not quite follow their attitude, but if the hon. Member for Lanark is going to fight his next election as the champion of the Metallgesellschaft I should not mind meeting him. There has been a good deal of eloquent speaking on the subject of Free Trade. Now, I have lived in a colony where there is Free Trade, in fact, there is no Custom House, and if hon. Members had done that they would realise that what we call Free Trade here is a mere mockery. In fact, our Free Trade here merely means that our enemies have free right of entry for their goods into this country without duty while they themselves are free to charge any duty they like upon any goods we send to them.

I think it is rather pathetic that so much good brains and eloquence should have been devoted to such an unworthy cause. The speech of the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Glyn-Jones) was very illuminating, and I can confirm what he says as to the Germans obtaining full control over wolfram, tungsten, and thorium, so far as regards the British Empire; and that they endeavoured, so long as America was not in the War, to ship their monazite sand to America. How did they do that? If the House will listen for a moment I will explain the working of this Metallgesellschaft, from an actual experience which came before me and also the hon. Member for Dumbartonshire (Mr. A. Allen), although I do not think he quite agrees with me, because his views of Free Trade and my own are not altogether in accord. When the Metallgesellschaft want to get control over certain metal it works in a very subtle way—at any rate, this particular case conveys that to my mind. They start a company here in England. They either send over Germans to be naturalised, or find Germans who have lived here long enough to be naturalised. They do the same thing in Belgium, and form a Belgium company; and the same thing in America, and form an American company. When they came to deal with this particular company of which I am speaking, they drew them together and formed a new one to deal with the particular metal. When their case is gone into, they turn round and say, "Our company is owned as to 30 per cent. by British, 30 per cent. by Belgian, and 30 per cent. by American subjects, and you cannot say it is an enemy concern. The Belgians are downtrodden, and surely you are not going to legislate against them; the Americans are Allies, and surely you will not legislate against them." Both the Belgian and the American companies' shares are largely held by the Metallgesellschaft, but, by a subtle use of our company law, and a use which one cannot help admiring of the naturalisation laws, they are able to put up a very good case; and a company of that sort passes outside the purview of this particular body, of which I happen to be a member. When you look to their real predilections, you will find that where their mines are there they have their own subjects, and an Englishman need not apply at all. To have German employés taking large salaries carrying on in the particular locality where the mine may be active German is a propaganda against which this country has every right to guard itself. I think the Board of Trade are absolutely justified and right in claiming the powers under this particular Bill. I do not say the measure is perfect, but we should pass the Second Reading and let expert people suggest Amendments which they think will bring it more into shape. We must bear in mind that the Metallgesellschaft, or an equivalent company, got Australia so tied up with agreements under which their concentrates were sold to one buyer that the Australians had to use the most drastic efforts to cut the Gordian knot which they had tied themselves. We are justified in taking precautions of the same sort. We all object to Government interference, but, at the same time, times are very much out of joint, and interference of some sort, there must be. The Government must exercise control in times like these, and it is very much better to allow the Board of Trade to tie us up somewhat with red-tape than to allow the German Metallgesellschaft, however much it may disguise itself, to bring its strong and hostile influence against us in this or any other way. Without hesitation, therefore, I ask the House to give this Bill a Second Reading, and to deal with it afterwards as they think fit. I see the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) has a letter in the "Times" to-day. He evidently feels somewhat the criticism levelled against him in the "Times" on the particular action he has taken in this case. He has declared himself not a Free Trader, and I would ask him and my hon. Friend the Member for West Derby (Mr. Rutherford), who also expressed hostility to this Bill, to see if they cannot modify their hostility to the extent of not voting against it. They have made their protest, and I feel convinced the House would be wise to accept this measure as it stands, and, if possible, to make it better. I, would, therefore, ask my two hon. Friends not to vote against the Second Reading.

Not as a general, international, multi-millionaire, I desire to say a few words against this Bill, and I must say the speech to which we have just listened has greatly strengthened my feeling of opposition to the measure. What is the whole purport and tenor of the speech? That this Metallgesellschaft and other German companies in the open competition of the world were too quick and alert in finance and company manipulation for the British people. They had no natural advantages; none whatever.

They met us in Australia—and that is the great complaint that has run through the whole of this controversy—in one of our own Colonies, and tied up the Australian mines by certain agreements which when the War broke out were immediately smashed by the Australian Government. The moral which I draw from all that I have listened to to-night is that the real evil against which we have to direct our attention is the fact that in the race of education, skill, financial knowledge, in which England had a long start of Germany, Germany had outstripped us. There is not the slightest doubt she has. Not only has she outstripped us, much to our shame, in financial knowledge, company manipulation, cartels, and banking, in all which matters we had half a century start, but that is not all. I have listened to the whole of this Debate. I listened to the speech of the Minister for Reconstruction, and to those of the other Ministers who have spoken, and taking the one leading article which has been the subect of this Debate, and that is zinc, what emerges from the discussion—and it is admitted on all sides—is that the reason why the Metallgesellschaft was able to corner, monopolise, and secure all the product of all the Australian zinc mines was that the British people were unable to smelt the Australian ores. That is the only reason. It was not that the Australian miners would not sell their zinc to us if we wanted to buy it, but that we did not desire to buy it because we were unable to handle it, and because the Germans admittedly—nobody raises any controversy on the point—enormously outstripped us in the matter of technical skill, and not because of any superiority of opportunity, in my opinion, but simply on account of the fact that they are a more practical nation, and where we have spent £10 they have spent £1,000 on chemists and laboratories, and they have succeeded by the expenditure of vast sums of money in finding out processes by which these ores could be treated, and put up the necessary factories for dealing with these ores while we were doing nothing in the matter. Now, instead of addressing ourselves to the real problem before us, namely, the education of our people to overtake the Germans and meet them on the ground on which they have beaten us, here we are engaged on these preposterous measures which never saved a trade in any country and never will.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the leader of the new party (General Croft) spoke of the brain of the octopus—I do not think that that was a correct term; but he referred to the ganglion, or something that goes by the name of a brain; but the brain of the octopus is in Germany. What troubles us is the brain and not the octopus. If we can beat the brain we will get over all those difficulties. He talked about trusts and cartels, and he and other speakers appear to be under the ludicrous impression that this Bill will free us from trusts and cartels and enable us to compete with what is one of the biggest problems of modern trade. No more preposterous idea ever entered the brain of anyone. It was America which taught to all the rest of the world the art of constructing trusts, and the Germans, being a very adaptable race, taking from all other people inventions which they are not very quick at making themselves, very quickly adapted the American idea of trusts and started the system of cartels. But suppose that it is true, as it is not true, that this Bill is going to strike at the system of trusts, how are you going to deal with the American trusts which are the great trusts of the world, and are you going to carry out the logical conclusion of this policy, that is a struggle with America on the question of trusts? You know perfectly well what American trusts have done in this country. You know that an American trust came over here and took control of your meat market and fixed for some years before the War the price of meat in this city. Are you going to embark in a struggle of that kind with Americans? If you really contemplate dealing with trusts on these lines you must inevitably follow it out to its logical conclusion, and deal with them wherever you may meet them. Let me give another illustration of what this policy will bring you to. The hon. and gallant Gentleman brought to our notice what he described as the greatest metal combine in the world—I forget the name, but it was a Belgian company—and he pointed out the horrible fact that certain ores were shipped to Belgium for some months after the War and found their way to Germany. If that were so it was due to the stupidity of the Government, which ought not to have allowed it. But, suppose that the War was over to-morrow, and that this same Belgian company were to resume trading, would you dare to say to it or to any other Belgian company that, because you sus- pected it of having some German capital, you will not allow it to trade with Great Britain?

Are you going to carry on a system of investigation among neutral nations? Take Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Holland, are you prepared to go into an inquisitorial investigation in every one of those countries as to whether some trust or company is not covering German interests? It is absolutely ludicrous, and to my mind it is characteristic of the whole spirit in which this legislation is proceeding. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has declared that this Metallgesellschaft had raised the price of lead before the War by 40 per cent.; but is the hon. and gallant Gentleman quite certain that some English firms were not co-operators in raising the price of lead? It is really preposterous for gallant soldiers to lecture this House on the arena of trades. All these combines, deals, and trusts have been freely participated in by British capitalists. Take, for instance, the armament deals. We know the history of those transactions; we know how close the relations were between the trusts and the great armament dealers of Germany, France, and England, how they had a binding agreement between them, how they raised the price of armaments to all the nations of Europe, and how they themselves were arming, and getting one nation to arm against another, and so making more armaments. Krupp's and all the great armament firms raised the prices by international arrangement. Trade has become now totally different from what it was fifty or sixty years ago; it is not the same at all, and no human being can foretell what it is going to develop into. The hon. Member for Sheffield made a speech which excited cheers, but there was no enthusiasm in any quarters when he said that private interests should be swept away and that the State should have control of everything. That may be the result from these trusts; but I want Members of this House to understand that they will make the greatest mistake they ever made in their lives if they support a Bill like this, which can do nothing but mischief, and which might lead to very serious results if, when this country goes into a peace conference, we were told by the American representatives that we would have to scrap this measure. That would be very humiliating, and we would come out of it in a very shabby way. No, Sir; the Bill is absurd in every detail. I see one provision in it to the effect that people who are suspected of enemy connection or enemy influence are not to be allowed to trade. There is one man in this country who really put his finger on the true spot in reference to the whole of this matter, and that is Lord Haldane. He was the one man who understood German influence, and he told you how to beat the Germans. I am speaking of the advice he gave as to education. He told you the true cause which has enabled the Germans to worst us in trade and worst us in war. Their officers and generals are educated and are taught their business, as some of ours are not. We are learning by degrees and at an awful cost. He told you years ago and told this nation over and over again, and he was the one man who had the courage to do so, of the means by which you could hope to beat Germany in the field of peace as well as that of war. Yet if this Bill were pressed Lord Haldane would not be allowed to trade in metals.

:I have listened to all the speeches from the Front Bench with regard to this Bill, to hear how it will enable us to deal with machinations of the Metallgesellschaft, but we have had no information on that point from any speaker. The only thing I did receive was from the Leader of the House, who said that by this Bill the Government would get information. I suppose he was referring to Clause 2, because by that Clause anyone who trades in these non-ferrous metals in this country will be open to have his books examined by a clerk from the Board of Trade. That applies not only to aliens, but to the honest born Briton, who will also have his books open to inspection. That is the only reason I can see which will give any information to anybody which will give them means for overcoming the Metallgesellschaft. It is usual in Bills of this character to put in a Clause that if the Government obtain information they should not pass that on to competitors. I shall put down a Clause on the Committee stage which will have the effect, if it is passed, of making the Board of Trade keep that information to themselves, and not pass it on from one firm to another to the detriment of another person's business. On the first day of this Bill the hon. and learned Member for Leamington (Sir E. Pollock) made some remarks to the effect that we had been fools in the past, but that we must not be fools in the future. I deny emphatically that the commercial community of this country are fools. If they have not been engaged in smelting zinc it is because they were more profitably employed. The hon. and learned Member said also that he had made researches into German peaceful penetration. He did not use those words, but that was the effect of his speech. I would like to know whether the hon. and learned Gentleman had made similar researches into English penetration into German trade. We have had put into the hands of the Public Trustee complete knowledge of all our property in Germany, and, while we have not had any public intimation of the results of his inquiry, I am told that he has discovered that we have more property in Germany than Germany has here. Have the Government any very clear idea as to what is to happen to that property in Germany if they there take means of retaliation by a measure of this description? Let me take an industry of which I know something. Many hon. Members have said that the Germans beat us in the chemical industry. They certainly beat us in the dye industry—that is acknowledged! But in the heavy chemical industry we beat the Germans. I know all about heavy chemicals. I know this—it is no secret from the Germans—the soda industry in Germany was controlled as to 75 per cent. of it by Belgium—and Englishmen had their share in it. What is to happen to our industry if this sort of Bill passes? Has the Government thought about it? I hope the spokesmen of the Government will tell us something upon that point. I do not know whether the House is aware that this problem is for us a very, very difficult one—this problem of the non-ferrous metals. The condition in which we found ourselves before the War was a great credit to us, and not a discredit. Is the House aware that of the metals mentioned in this Bill the world produced about 3,000,000 tons per annum—that is to say of metal! Of that production there was mined in England only 12,000 tons. Point has been made of the zinc concentrates in Austria. For many years they were dumped out in Australia because nobody could touch them. Vast sums of money were spent both here and in Germany by way of experiment to produce the metal, and finally Germany succeeded in finding a process. Naturally they wanted to put down plant to work the concentrates, and also they required to make their contracts with the prospect of raw material for some years ahead. To do so was an ordinary commercial transaction, and nobody in their senses would have thought of doing otherwise.

Something about prices was told us by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Reconstruction. Lead, he said, had risen from £13 per ton in 1911 to £18 in 1914—about £5. Other metals, which are supposed to be controlled by the Metallgesellschaft have absolutely not risen at all between 1910 and 1914, If we think that the Metallgesellschaft are raising the prices of these to their customers, why did not they raise the price of spelter? Pig-iron rose from 61/- to 67/-. Copper remained practically stationary—it rose from £57 to £59—in those years. Tin was practically the same price in 1910 and 1914. Nickel has practically no published price, but remained the same for the whole of that period. Aluminium rose from £72 to £84 in 1913. Here we have a list of all the metals mentioned in the Bill, and we find that in some cases they went up and in some cases they remained the same. If anything can be got out of those figures to show that there was a control in order to raise prices, I shall be surprised.

What is the basis of this Bill? I maintain that this silly alien hunt is a blind. Clause 2 is the operative Clause, in my opinion, which enables the Board of Trade to pry into anybody's business of this kind in this country? I want to ask, Are the Board of Trade going into the business? There is no sign from the representative of the Board of Trade. Perhaps he will tell us. Are they contemplating a British Metallgesellschaft? I hope he will reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury, who told the House that mines in Canada have been bought on behalf of the Government. Is it a fact or not? Is it a fact that they have spent £1,500,000 in Canada on purchasing mines, or, perhaps I might better say, property alleged to contain mineral. As a matter of fact, I know that some friends of mine were offered one of those mines and turned it down, and it was subsequently sold to the Government at a higher price. I think that this Bill should be rejected by this House. I think that the Board of Trade and other Government offices have completely lost their heads. They seem to be inoculated with Prussianism in its worst form. They would do very much better to leave the commercial community alone. Let them carry on their business, which has not been done so badly in the past.

I rise to say one or two words in concluding this Debate, if I may, and at the outset I do not make any pretence to have any great knowledge of the non-ferrous metal industry. Therefore, I hope what I have to say will not be misunderstood. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has put one or two questions to me to which I would reply at first. There is no intention on the part of the Board of Trade to pry into the business of people carrying on the non-ferrous metal industry with a view, or any intention whatsoever, of giving that information or using that information either to the detriment of a firm or to convey it to another, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that if there is any provision which can be profitably inserted in the Bill we will give it every consideration to see that nothing of that kind occurs. On that point I wish to make a very clear and a very definite statement. This Bill, it seems to me, is about the most misunderstood and misrepresented Bill which I have seen come before this House. Really the Bill itself is simple, and it does not propose to do any of the kind of things put before the House by many of its critics. The fact is that this Bill is a necessity in the national interest, and it is because it Is a necessity in the national interest that I stand here, at any rate, to defend the Second Reading; otherwise I would have nothing whatever to do with it. I want to say, in reply to the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, with regard to the question of mines in Canada, that the present Government, so far as I know, have had nothing to do, nor can I find that the Government have had anything to do, with any purchase of any mines in Canada. Whatever may have been the policy prior to the present Government that, at any rate, so far as I know, has not been their policy.

The hon. Gentleman the Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) said that what was wanted in the main was merely a question of education and cleverness and brain, and that if those qualities were applied to this industry there need be no fear of any German competition whatsoever. I wish that were true. As far as I am concerned, I am all for giving the very best scientific and technical education in this country, and I am for beating the Germans on their own ground if it is a question of competition. I am in favour of applying education and talent to its utmost capacity in this country, and using all the arts and sciences to their utmost capacity in order that we may hold our own if it was a question of industry and that alone. But there is something more than that in regard to this Bill. Already it has been pointed out more than once that the question of non-ferrous metals is vital to the national safety, especially in war, and also in peace. They are the key industries of the country, and therefore they cannot, as this War has proved, be left to the ordinary play of commercial transactions. What has been the result of this policy in the past? When we came to face the problems of this War and the control of these metals, we find how intricate were the ramifications of this metal question, and we found that the Germans had succeeded by financial control in securing the sources of supply. [An HON. MEMBER: "Where?"] Does the hon. Member deny that the Germans have secured the sources of supply? [HON. MEMBERS: "Of course we do!"] Then I will deal with that point. First of all, they have secured the sources of supply of zinc concentrates in Australia. Will any hon. Gentleman say that immediately the War is over, if you leave things as they are, that control will not go back to Germany?

I think the horn Member must have heard it stated in Debate that arrangements were made with the Government of Australia, confirmed by the Government at home, which make any return of the control of zinc concentrates in Australia by Germany absolutely impossible.

Yes, and my right hon. Friend knows that, in order to secure that—and this surely is against his policy in opposing this Bill—the Government had to interfere, both in Australia and in this country. It is not now a question between us of Government interference. It is a question merely of the method by which it is to be done. The Government have had to step in. [An HON. MEMBER: "They have done it!"] I know that they have done it, and they had to do it in the interests of the safety of the nation. If they have had to do it once, they will probably have to do it again. They had to do it because this particular firm, this octopus, as it has been called, before the War, through its daughter and subsidiary companies in all parts of the world, had managed to get a large control—I do not say a complete control—over the sources of supply of these non-ferrous metals. Therefore, it is not now merely a question of education and cleverness; it is a question of cutting away this control in order that there may be a fair chance for education and cleverness and the brains of this country. Until that control is cut, I do not think there will be a fair chance. Neither is it a matter merely of a monopoly. The hon. Member for Attercliffe Division (Mr. Anderson) and I would probably be at one if it were a question of Government control of a complete monopoly and the sources of supply were in this country, because I am as much a Socialist as he is. I have not shed my Socialism. The Bill does not propose to do many of the things which have been suggested. It simply seeks to cut away the control which this Metallgesellschaft exercised. It was not merely a commercial control that was behind it. Really, it does make one think sometimes that the War has taught some people very little. I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend the late President of the Board of Trade knows—his speeches when he was President of the Board of Trade showed that he knew—that the control which was exercised by German firms, financial firms, as they were supposed to be, was not only of a financial and a commercial character, but was also of a political character. The metals of which they sought to get control—the Metallgesellschaft was certainly the second largest in Germany of these companies, which had tentacles in all parts of the world—were the very kind of metals which are of greatest importance when a war is coming about. Therefore, it is exceedingly important in the national interest and for the future development of this industry that we should cut the control which this firm has exercised. A great deal has been said about what this Bill proposes to do. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) seemed to think that Government control of all kinds is the greatest possible evil. I venture to make a rather bold statement. I believe it to be absolutely true that, but for the control by the Government of many of the industries of this country—a control which ought, in my opinion, to have been exercised earlier—we should have lost this War long ago, and should have been ruined as a nation. With regard to that point I should like to quote the last sentence of a statement made, not by a member of the Government, but by a Judge of the High Court, which appears in to-day's papers. Mr. Justice Younger said:

"Many cases of difficulty which have arisen in the regulation of enemy businesses under the Act of 1916 have been, at the instance of the Board of Trade, referred by the Controllers to me. I can recall no instance in which the action of the Controller has not been fair, just, and reasonable."

The idea that there is any intention on the part of the Board of Trade under this Bill to do anything but exercise control in regard to these licences in a fair, just, and reasonable manner is entirely unjustified by the past record of the Board. It is a question of giving the licence. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tyneside and the late President of the Board of Trade asked how this control will bring more metals to this country. That is not the object of this Bill.

That is not the main object of the Bill. The main object of the Bill is to prevent the other people from keeping metals away. That, as a matter of fact, is what they have done on quite a number of occasions. It was the power which their financial control gave them which was exercised to keep metals away from this country. Therefore, the very fact that you cut off their control does enable you to get, by the ordinary operations of business, the metals which you desire for this country. This Bill ought to receive the unanimous assent of this House. There is nothing in it which need offend any Free Trader. The control is not exercised in such a way as to offend any Free Trader, and there is nothing in it which leads to any of those wild and violent changes in our fiscal system which are supposed to be at the bottom of it. I hope the House will give this Bill a unanimous Second Reading.

I have listened with a considerable amount of sorrow to my hon. Friend's speech. He says the object of the Bill is not to bring non-ferrous metals to this country, but to prevent other countries not exporting to this country.

To prevent other countries not sending them to this country. It is the same thing. I cannot see how this country can compel other countries which produce non-ferrous metals to send them here if they do not want to send them here. He also used a very unfortunate illustration in connection with cutting out a cancer. Surely he has sufficient knowledge of surgery to know that in cutting out a cancer a very large percentage of the people the cancer is cut out from die as a result of the operation, and it is quite possible that in cutting out the cancer he may kill many of the industries of this country. I am not enamoured in any shape or form of Government control of industries. Anyone who has inside knowledge of what has happened in connection with some industries that the Government has controlled must view with some alarm the proposal of the Government to deal with this matter. I can see in connection with this Bill a considerable amount of dislocation of labour in certain industries. I can also see connected with the Bill what I call trusts and combines growing up in this country. I can also see not only combines and trusts growing up, but also corruption growing up in this country. We hear strong rumours, and sometimes when they are traced to their source they are well-founded rumours, of corruption in connection with certain industries in this country in connection with the War. That should not be. If the Government come forward and say, "We as a Government are prepared to buy all the non-ferrous metals required in this country, and to supply the trade for a certain period, there would perhaps be some reason for the introduction of a Bill of that kind; but I know of my own knowledge that the Government has placed every obstacle in the way of non-ferrous metals, such as zinc ore and calomine coming from a neutral country to this country, where the ore could have been delivered in two and a half or three days at the outside; and instead they are bringing the zinc ore and calomine from Broken Hill, Australia, and Cochin China, a voyage of six or eight weeks, whereas by the application of common sense they could have had it in two and a half days or three days. This is a question that affects not only commercial men and the capitalists but the working men of the country. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] If the working men have not the right to have a voice in the matter, I am prepared to sit down and say nothing further.

rose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The House divided: Ayes, 178; Noes, 60.

Division No. 134.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Cautley, H. S.

Gretton, Col. John

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George

Griffith, Rt. Hon. Ellis Jones

Archdale, Lieut. E. M.

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich)

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

Astor, Hon. Waldorf

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Haddock, George Bahr

Baird, John Lawrence

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Robert (Herts, Hitchin)

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J. (Kens., S.)

Baldwin, Stanley

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

Cochrane, Cecil Algernon

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.

Colvin, Col. Richard Beale

Haslam, Lewis

Barnett, Capt. R. W.

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Henry, Sir Charles

Barnston, Major Harry

Craig, Col. James (Down, E.)

Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T.

Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Currie, George W.

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Bellairs, Commander C. W.

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E.

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Denniss, E. R. B.

Higham, John Sharp

Bigland, Alfred

Dixon, Charles Harvey

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Bird, Alfred

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Black, Sir Arthur W.

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Hope, Lieut.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian)

Blair, Reginald

Du Pre, Major W. Baring

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

Hunt, Major Rowland

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-

Fell, Arthur

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

Boyton, James

Finney, Samuel

Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Fletcher, John Samuel

Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Brookes, Warwick

Forster, Rt. Hon. Henry William

Kellaway, Frederick George

Broughton, Urban Hanlon

Foster, Philip Staveley

Kenyon, Barnet

Bull, Sir William James

Gelder, Sir William Alfred

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Burdett-Coutts, William

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Larmor, Sir J.

Butcher, John George

Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Lee, Sir Arthur Hamilton

Cator, John

Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland)

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Lindsay, William Arthur

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Starkey, John Ralph

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Parker, Rt. Hon. Sir G. (Gravesend)

Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. Henry

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Pease, Rt. Hon. H. Pike (Darlington)

Stewart, Gershom

Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Swift, Rigby

M'Calmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A.

Perkins, Walter Frank

Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Ches., Knutsford)

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Peto, Basil Edward

Sykes, Col. Sir Mark (Hull, Central)

Mackinder, Halford J.

Philipps, Maj.-Gen. Sir Ivor (S'ampton)

Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

Macmaster, Donald

Philipps, Sir Owen (Chester)

Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.)

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

Pratt, J. W.

Tryon, Capt. George Clement

Maden, Sir John Henry

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Magnus, Sir Philip

Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

Walker, Colonel William Hall

Malcolm, Ian

Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.)

Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. George N. (Norwich)

Wardle, George J.

Maux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Whiteley, Herbert James

Middlebrook, Sir William

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks E.R.)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Robinson, Sidney

Wilson-Fox, Henry (Tamworth)

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Rothschild, Major Lionel de

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Mount, William Arthur

Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen)

Wolmer, Viscount

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Samuels, Arthur W. (Dublin, U.)

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)

Worthington Evans, Major Sir L.

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Scott, A., MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Yate, Col. Charles Edward

Nield, Herbert

Shaw, Hon. A.

Young, William (Perthshire, East)

Norman, Sir Henry

Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton)

Younger, Sir George

Norton Griffiths, Sir J.

Spear, Sir John Ward

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid)

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A.H. (Asht'n-u-Lyne)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Capt.Capt.

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Stanton, Charles Butt

F. Guest and Lord E. Talbot.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon William

NOES.

Agnew, Sir George William

Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling

Hinds, John

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

Holt, Richard Durning

Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield)

Anderson, W. C.

Hudson, Walter

Shortt, Edward

Arnold, Sydney

John, Edward Thomas

Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks)

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Jowett, Frederick William

Sutton, John E.

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Keating, Matthew

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Bliss, Joseph

King, Joseph

Toulmin, Sir George

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Brunner, John F. L.

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Walters, Sir John Tudor

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Wedgwood, Lieut.-Commander Josiah C.

Chancellor, Henry George

Millar, James Duncan

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

Molteno, Percy Albert

Whitehouse, John Howard

Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives)

Nuttall, Harry

Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

O'Grady, James

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.)

Dillon, John

Outhwaite, R. L.

Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

Parrott, Sir James Edward

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Elverston, Sir Harold

Partington, Hon. Oswald

Hackett, John

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Hogge and Mr. Pringle.

Hemmerde, Edward George

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Question put accordingly, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

The House divided: Ayes, 182; Noes, 79.

Division No. 135.]

AYES.

[11.9 p.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. C. W.

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Boyton, James

Currie, George W.

Archdale, Lieut. E. M.

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)

Astor, Major Hon. Waldorf

Brassey, H. L. C.

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Baird, John Lawrence

Bridgeman, William Clive

Denniss, E. R. B.

Baldwin, Stanley

Brookes, Warwick

Dixon, C. H.

Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark)

Broughton, Urban Hanlon

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

Bull, Sir William

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

Burdett-Coutts, William

Du Pre, Major W. Baring

Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.

Butcher, John George

Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

Barnett, Capt. R. W.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Elverston, Sir Harold

Barnston, Major Harry

Cator, John

Fell, Arthur

Barton, Sir William

Cautley, H. S.

Finney, Samuel

Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George

Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich)

Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue

Bellairs, Commander C. W.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Fletcher, John Samuel

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin)

Forster, Rt. Hon. Henry William

Bigland, Alfred

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Foster, Philip Staveley

Billing, Pemberton

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Bird, Alfred

Cochrane, Cecil Algernon

Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred

Blair, Reginald

Colvin, Col. Richard Beale

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland)

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith

Craig, Col. James (Down, E.)

Gretton, Col. John

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen)

Haddock, George Bahr

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

Samuels, Arthur W.

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J.

Magnus, Sir Philip

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Malcolm, Ian

Shaw, Hon. A.

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Liverpool)

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Spear, Sir John Ward

Haslam, Lewis

Meux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A.H. (Asht'n-u-Lyne)

Henry, Sir Charles (Shropshire)

Middlebrook, Sir William

Stanton, Charles Butt

Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Starkey, Capt. John R.

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. H.

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Mount, William Arthur

Stewart, Gershom

Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E.

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Swift, Rigby

Higham, John Sharp

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Ches., Knutsford)

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Nicholson, William G. (Peterfield)

Sykes, Col. Sir Mark (Hull, Central)

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Nield, Herbert

Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)

Hope, Lt.-Col. J. A. (Edin., Midlothian)

Norman, Sir Henry

Thomas Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.)

Hudson, Walter

Norton Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir J.

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid.)

Tryon, Capt. George Clement

Hunt, Major Rowland

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

Walker, Col. W. H.

Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthon, E.)

Parker, Rt. Hon. Sir G. (Gravesend)

Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)

Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbt. Pike (Darlington)

Wardle, George J.

Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Whiteley, Herbert J.

Kellaway, Frederick George

Perkins, Walter F.

Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

Kenyon, Barnet

Peto, Basil Edward

Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Philipps, Gen. Sir Ivor (Southampton)

Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.)

Larmor, Sir J.

Philipps, Captain Sir Owen (Chester)

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Lee, Sir Arthur Hamilton

Pratt, J. W.

Wolmer, Viscount

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Pryce-Jones, Col. E.

Worthington Evans, Sir L.

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arfon)

Yate, Col. C. E.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingahm, E.)

Young, William (Perth, East)

Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. George H. (Norwich)

Younger, Sir George

M'Calmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A.

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbigh)

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Lord Edmund Talbot and Capt. Guest.

Mackinder, Halford J.

Robinson, Sidney

Macmaster, Donald

Rothschild, Major Lionel de

NOES.

Agnew, Sir George William

Hinds, John

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling

Hogge, James Myles

Robertson, Rt. Hon. J. M.

Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)

Anderson, W. C.

John, Edward Thomas

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dewsbury)

Arnold, Sydney

Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)

Scanlan, Thomas

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield)

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Jowett, Frederick William

Shortt, Edward

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Keating, Matthew

Smallwood, Edward

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

Kiley, James Daniel

Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks)

Black, Sir Arthur W.

King, Joseph

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

Bliss, Joseph

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Sutherland, John E.

Brunner, John F. L.

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Sutton, John E.

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs)

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Buxton, Noel (Norfolk)

Maden, Sir John Henry

Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)

Chancellor, Henry George

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Tootill, Robert

Clough, William

Molteno, Percy Alport

Toulmin, Sir George

Collins, Major Godfrey P. (Greenock)

Nuttall, Harry

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives)

O'Grady, James

Walters Sir John Tudor

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Outhwaite, R. L.

Watt, Henry Anderson

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Parrott, Sir James Edward

Wedgwood, Lieut.-Commander Josiah C.

Dillon, John

Partington, Hon. Oswald

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding)

Whitehouse, John Howard

Galbraith, Samuel

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Gelder, Sir William Alfred

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Wing, Thomas Edward

Gilbert, J. D.

Pringle, William M. R.

Hackett, John

Raffan, Peter Wilson

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Holt and Mr. J. Henderson.

Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.)

Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham)

Hemmerde, Edward George

Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the Whole House."—[ Mr. J. Hope. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 167; Noes, 91.

Division No. 136.]

AYES.

[11.17 p.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Baird, John Lawrence

Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Baldwin, Stanley

Barnett, Capt. R. W.

Archdale, Lieut. Edward M.

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood

Barnston, Major Harry

Astor, Major Hon. Waldorf

Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)

Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.)

Beck, Arthur Cecil

Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Bellairs, Commander C. W.

Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)

Parker, Rt. Hon. Sir G. (Gravesend)

Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)

Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)

Pease, Rt. Hon. H. P. (Darlington)

Bigland, Alfred

Henry, Sir Charles

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Billing, Noel Pemberton

Hermon-Hodge, Sir R. T.

Perkins, Walter F.

Bird, Alfred

Hewart, Sir Gordon

Peto, Basil Edward

Blair, Reginald

Hewins, William Albert Samuel

Philipps, Maj.-Gen. Sir Ivor (S'ampton)

Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith

Hickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E.

Philipps, Sir Owen (Chester)

Boyton, James

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray

Brace, Rt. Hon. William

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Pratt, J. W.

Brassey, H. L. C.

Hope, Lieut.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian)

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest George

Bridgeman, William Clive

Hughes, Spencer Leigh

Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.

Brookes, Warwick

Hunt, Major Rowland

Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arion)

Broughton, Urban Hanlon

Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, E.)

Bull, Sir William James

Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. George H. (Norwich)

Burdett-Coutts, William

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)

Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)

Butcher, John George

Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey)

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Jooes, William S. Glyn (Stepney)

Rothschild, Major Lionel de

Cator, John

Kellaway, Frederick George

Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lancs., Darwen)

Cautley, H. S.

Kenyon, Barnet

Samuels, Arthur W.

Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir George

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir F. (Prestwich)

Larmer, Sir J.

Shaw, Hon. A.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)

Smith, Rt. Hon. Sir F. E. (Walton)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord Robt. (Herts, Hitchin)

Lee, Sir Arthur Hamilton

Spear, Sir John Ward

Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham

Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert

Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A.H. (Asht'n-u-Lyne)

Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Stanton, Charles, Butt

Cochrane, Cecil Algernon

Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)

Starkey, Captain John Ralph

Colvin, Col. Richard Beale

Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)

Staveley-Hill, Lieut.-Col. Henry

Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.

Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)

Stewart, Gorshom

Craig, Col. James (Down, E.)

McCalmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A.

Swift, Rigby

Croft, Brigadier-General Henry Page

MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh

Sykes, Col. Sir A. J. (Ches., Knutsfd.)

Currie, George W.

Mackinder, Halford J.

Sykes, Col. Sir Mark (Hull, Central)

Denniss, E. R. B.

Macmaster, Donald

Terrell, George (Wilts., N.W.)

Dixon, C. H.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Thomas-Stanford, Charles

Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)

Tryon, Captain George Clement

Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Du Pre, Major W. Baring

Malcolm, Ian

Walker, Colonel William Hall

Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)

Fell, Arthur

Mason, James F. (Windsor)

Wardle, George J.

Finney, Samuel

Meux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth

Whiteley, Herbert J.

Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam)

Middlebrook, Sir William

Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.)

Flannery, Sir J. Fortesque

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Fletcher, John Samuel

Morison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

Winfrey, Sir Richard

Forster, Rt. Hon. Henry William

Mount, William Arthur

Wolmer, Viscount

Foster, Philip Staveley

Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert

Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Neville, Reginald J. N.

Worthington Evans, Major Sir L.

Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Greenwood, Sir G. G. (Peterborough)

Nield, Herbert

Young, William (Perthshire, East)

Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland)

Norman, Sir Henry

Younger, Sir George

Gretton, John

Norton-Griffiths, Sir John

Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)

O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord Edmund Talbot and Capt. F. Guest

Haddock, George Bahr

Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J.

Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William

NOES.

Agnew, Sir George William

Gulland, Rt. Hon. John William

Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding)

Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling

Hackett, John

Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.

Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire)

Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.)

Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Anderson, W. C.

Hemmerde, Edward George

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Arnold, Sydney

Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.)

Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham)

Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)

Higham, John Sharp

Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir F. G.

Hinds, John

Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M.

Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple)

Holt, Richard Durning

Robinson, Sidney

Barton, Sir William

Howard, Hon. Geoffrey

Roch, Walter F.

Beauchamp, Sir Edward

John, Edward Thomas

Rowlands, James

Black, Sir Arthur W.

Jones, Henry Haydn (Marioneth)

Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dewsbury)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe)

Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)

Bliss, Joseph

Jowett, Frederick William

Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield)

Brunner, John F. L.

Keating, Matthew

Shortt, Edward

Burns, Rt. Hon. John

Kiley, James Daniel

Smallwood, Edward

Buxton, Noel

King, Joseph

Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks)

Chancellor, Henry George

Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)

Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)

Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)

Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Sutherland, John E.

Cory, Sir Clifford John (St. Ives)

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk. B'ghs)

Sutton, John E.

Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)

Maden, Sir John Henry

Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)

Mason, David M. (Coventry)

Thomas, Sir A. G. (Monmouth, S.)

Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)

Millar, James Duncan

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James Henry (Derby)

Dillon, John

Molteno, Percy Alport

Tootill, Robert

Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B.

Nuttall, Harry

Toulmin, Sir George

Elverston, Sir Harold

Outhwaite, R. L.

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Gelder, Sir W. A.

Parrott, Sir James Edward

Walters, Sir John Tudor

Gilbert, J. D.

Partington, Hon. Oswald

Watt, Henry Anderson

Wedgwood, Lieut.-Com. Josiah C.

Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)

Yeo, Alfred William

White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)

Williams, Thomas J. (Swansea)

Whitehouse, John Howard

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr pringle and Mr. Hogge.

Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas

Wing, Thomas Edward

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.)

Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Thursday.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Ministry of Munitions (Priority Permits)

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

At Question Time this afternoon I had occasion to ask your permission to put a Private Notice Question to call attention to a grave public scandal. I regret that the time at my disposal will not permit me to place the case in its entirety before the House, but I take this opportunity of directing the attention of the Ministry of Munitions to sufficient facts to enable them, if they care to interest themselves in this matter, to trace the case and clear it up with dispatch. To put the case in a very few words, it is this: I have here in my hand two depositions, sworn statements by responsible and respectable citizens. One is an officer in His Majesty's service and the other is a well-known engineer. According to these statements, a certain merchant in the City, of Queen Victoria Street, has stated to them that it was impossible for him to obtain orders for agricultural tractors unless he was prepared to pay the sum of £5 to a certain officer of the Ministry by way of a bribe before he would get any priority permit to import them. This deposition states that there exists a contract between the representatives of the Ministry and the individual in question to the effect that he has to pay a sum of £2,000 for the importation of 400 tractors on one permit. When the question arose of a second permit he applied to the Ministry for the second permit, and the official in question said, "There is something still to be settled on the old permit before we can give you the new one, and unless you are prepared to pay £2,000, according to the contract, we will give you no further permit for importing agricultural machinery." And this in view of the fact that the shortage of and the great need for machinery in this country! The reply of this individual was that he would not pay the £2,000, and that he regarded the contract as a joke. Then, I understand, the official responsible in the Ministry cabled to America to stop the shipments of the 400 tractors that this man was waiting for. The reply of this man was that unless that cable was cancelled immediately he would send a copy of the contract to the "Times," with a full statement of the case. This statement has been made on oath. I have given the Ministry the names and addresses of the officer and also of the witness and the merchant. Either this merchant is making a criminal charge against the Ministry, or their representative at the Ministry, and it is very hard to say what should be done to that representative Personally, I should like to put him against the wall and shoot him, as I should like to shoot a number of other men dealing in the same way in this country to-day. What course the Public Prosecutor will take I do not know. So far as I know the case has been referred to him, and he has referred it back to the Ministry. Here to-day, when I was trying to bring this case forward, they were trying to get that officer out of this country so that he could not be brought as a witness. I propose to raise this matter again on the Adjournment to-morrow night, when I propose to read this sworn statement to the House. I trust that the Minister of Munitions in the meantime will have an opportunity of inquiring fully into this case, and that he will be able to inform the House whether it is their intention to prosecute the merchant or to prosecute the responsible official in the case. There for the night I leave it.

It being half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned accordingly at Half after Eleven o'clock.