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Commons Chamber

Volume 100: debated on Monday 17 December 1917

House of Commons

Monday, December 17, 1917

Supreme Court of Judicature Act (Ireland), 1877

Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 10th December, 1917, giving effect to Rules of Court [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

East India (Accounts and Estimates, 1917–18)

Copy presented of Explanatory Memorandum by the Under-Secretary of State for India [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Education (Scotland)

Copy presented of Minute of the Committee of Council on Education in Scotland, dated 14th December, 1917, amending Minute of 11th July, 1917, providing for Grants in aid of the Salaries of Teachers and for other purposes [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Ministry of Food

Copies presented of Oil, Oil Cakes, and Meals (Requisition) Order, 1917, Hardened Fat (Requisition) Order, 1917, Bread Order, 1917, General Licence, and Ships' Stores Order, 1917, made by the Food Controller under the Defence of the Realm Regulations [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Colonial Reports (Annual)

Copy presented of Colonial Report, No. 944 (Somaliland, Report for 1916–17) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Pensions (Governors of Dominions, Etc.) Act, 1911

Copy presented of Order made by the Secretary of State for the Colonies rais- ing the Governorship of Newfoundland to the First Class for pension purposes [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

National Health Insurance Commission (England)

Copy presented of Order, dated 19th November, 1917, made by the Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Insurance (Deposit Contributors' Benefits) Order, 1917 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Private Business

Parker's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Oral Answers to Questions

War

Food Supplies

Rice

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Government propose to encourage the erection of mills for the burnishing of rice in this country; if his attention has been called to the evidence that proved that such polishing destroyed to a large extent the nutritive value of the rice, and that in the countries where rice forms a staple diet none but natural, unpolished rice is ever eaten; and if he will see that money and labour are not expended on such an enterprise?

I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative; the remainder does not, therefore, arise.

Is that definite? Does that mean there are no arrangements being made for the erection?

Agricultural Tractors

asked the Minister of Munitions whether, at any time since the introduction of permits for the importation of machinery, orders for the shipment of agricultural tractors have been cancelled or postponed by the Ministry of Munitions or any other Department directly or indirectly connected with the Ministry; and, if so, whether he will state the nature of the conditions and for what reasons such shipment was cancelled or postponed?

I am not aware that any shipment of agricultural tractors recommended by the Ministry of Munitions has been cancelled or postponed.

Sugar

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what arrangements have been made for the retail supply of sugar in Ireland; whether the system is identical with that to be instituted in Great Britain; and, if the basis is to be a household-card system, what provision is made to meet the case of individuals who may remove temporarily from Ireland to Great Britain after the 1st January?

The scheme of sugar distribution in Ireland, which is intended to come into operation early in March, is based on a system of household cards. The scheme will be administered by the Food Control Committee for Ireland, the cards being issued through the instrumentality of the Royal Irish Constabulary. In reply to the last part of the question, arrangements are being made to meet the case of persons coming temporarily to this country from Ireland and elsewhere after 1st January. I hope that these arrangements will be announced very shortly.

Butter

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he will take immediate steps to prohibit the export of butter from Ireland; if he is aware that for the past week many shopkeepers failed to secure 1 lb. of butter for their customers, whilst hundreds of cases were exported to London hotels, who, through their agents, secured the butter by paying prices over that fixed by the Food Controller; and whether the Bribery and Corruption Act is still in force?

The Food Controller is not at present prepared to apply compulsion to Irish butter producers, whose patriotism, he is assured, can be relied upon not to export more butter than Ireland can reasonably spare. He has no evidence which suggests that butter is shorter in Ireland than in other portions of the United Kingdom, but he will be glad to be informed of any specific case in which overpayment for butter can be substantiated. So far as he is aware, the Bribery and Corruption Act is still in force in Ireland.

Feeding-Stuffs

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether the price of cake for feeding cattle has been fixed by the Ministry of Food at £19 per ton; whether he is aware that manufacturers are unable to produce it at this price, with the result that such cake is now unprocurable; whether his attention has been directed to the fact that in some districts farmers are now using flour as food for their cattle; and whether he intends to take any steps to put an end to this practice by enabling farmers to obtain suitable forage material on more economical terms?

The maximum prices fixed by the Food Controller for cattle-feeding cakes range from £13 15s. to £19 per ton, according to the kinds of cake; under arrangements made with the Government manufacturers can produce such a cake at a reasonable profit, and, in fact, are producing it to the maximum extent which the available raw materials allow. The Food Controller is not aware that farmers are using flour as food for cattle in place of cake, but he would be glad if the hon. Member would report to him any cases known to him, so that the proceedings may at once be taken. Committees of dealers and farmers have been set up throughout the country to improve the distribution of feeding-stuffs to the farmers, and these committees will shortly be in active operation?

Pigs

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food if he has considered the political as well as the economic effect of the new Regulation governing the sale of pigs; whether he is aware that his policy has doomed the pig to extinction as an article of food; and will he say how such a policy can assist the Government in the steps they are taking to increase production?

All aspects of the question have been considered in fixing maximum prices for pigs. The Food Controller does not agree that the policy of fixing maximum prices has doomed the pig to extinction as an article of food; but, as I have already indicated to the hon. Member in reply to his former questions on the subject, the production of pigs must in present circumstances be conditioned by the amount of feeding-stuffs available, and by the fact that grain hitherto used to feed pigs is now urgently required for human consumption.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we are heading straight for a pork famine, and will he reconsider the advisability of fixing a maximum price?

I am afraid that my hon. Friend will have to wait the opportunities of debate, but substantially his question is answered in my reply.

Cold Storage

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food what provision has been made for cold storage accommodation, and the cost of the same; what rates are charged and paid by the Government for the storage of meat, butter, and cheese; and, should the Government decide to erect cold storage, will the tenders be open to public competition?

The whole of the available cold-storage accommodation has been surveyed and plans made for increasing it by one-third of its present capacity; practically this additional space has been arranged for. It is estimated that the cost will approximate to a million and a quarter sterling, but it is hoped that only a small portion of this will fall on public funds. The rates vary in different localities, but in all cases the Government gets the most favourable terms in the locality. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative.

Is it not a fact that over £1,100,000 of this money is coming out of private funds; and will the hon. Gentleman say who is the expert responsible for the policy in this matter?

As to the latter part of the question, I should require notice; and, as to the other part, my answer indicates what proportion comes from private funds.

Milk

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, with a view to giving milk producers some security in their industry and affording them an opportunity of providing for the future supply of milk and the necessary newly-calved cows and thereby increasing the prospect of an adequate supply of milk for the public, he will at once take steps to fix and announce the maximum price for milk produced in the summer months of 1918, i.e., April to September, inclusive?

The Food Controller intends very shortly to announce the maximum price fixed for milk to be produced during the months of April to September, 1918, inclusive.

Questions

Messrs. Werths and Company

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the fact that, although Herr Hugo Werths, a German agent, of 41, Aldersgate Street, trading with his brother as Werths and Company, has been exempted from internment, as the Board of Trade declare that his firm were experts in the diamond die industry and agents for the principal French firms, two French firms, representing 70 per cent. of the entire production of diamond dies in France, have stated that they have never supplied a single diamond die to Messrs. Werths and Company, and did not even know of their existence; and, if so, what action he proposes to take with regard to this alien?

The firm of Werths and Company has been wound up by Order of the Board of Trade, as stated in the reply given to the hon. Member for the Brentford Division on the 10th December. I was not previously aware of the statement mentioned in the question as having been made by French firms, but any information bearing on the subject of internment would, if supplied to him, no doubt receive consideration from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in spite of the fact that this firm has been bought by British people, this man Hugo Werths still conducts this business?

If my hon. and gallant Friend has any information to that effect, I shall be glad to receive it.

Has the hon. Gentleman not information that, although the brother of this man is interned, this man is still at large doing this business?

All questions of internment are settled by the Home Secretary—not by the Board of Trade.

New Transport Company

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the desirability to improve the transport facilities in the United Kingdom, his attention has been called to the proposals of the New Transport Company; and whether he proposes to take any action?

Certain proposals on behalf of the New Transport Company were put before the President of the Board of Trade by a deputation which he received on the 23rd November, and my right hon. Friend pointed out that any inquiry with reference to the adoption of the company's main scheme was, in his opinion, impracticable during the War. He offered, however, to consider a proposal which the company had in mind to enable shipping at ports to be turned round more rapidly.

Bearing in mind the great claims made with regard to this proposal, could not the Board of Trade appoint a small Committee to go into this matter whilst there is time, and not wait till the end of the War?

Coal (Transport)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the Coal Controller obtained from the principal railway companies, including the London and North-Western, the Midland, the Great Central, the Great Northern, the Great Western, the North-Eastern, and the Lancashire and Yorkshire, the estimated saving in ton miles or train miles in the event of his coal redistribution scheme being brought into operation; and, if so, what were the estimates in each case and how so far have the results agreed with the estimates?

I indicated in the reply which I gave to a question asked by the hon. Member on the 3rd December that the estimate of the saving in ton miles to be effected by the coal transport reorganisation scheme was framed by reference to the effect on each colliery district as a whole. It would not have been practicable for the matter to be dealt with in the manner suggested by the hon. Member.

Christmas Holidays (Mining Districts, Scotland)

asked the President of the Board of Trade what arrangements have been made by the Coal Controller for the taking of Christmas and New Year holidays in the mining districts in Scotland; and how many days will be recognised as holidays within the meaning of the war wage circular?

The Controller of Coal Mines has, after discussing the question with his Advisory Board, and after ascertaining the views of the Admiralty and Ministry of Munitions, assented to the customary holidays being taken, and such days will be recognised holidays within the meaning of the war wage circulars. These holidays vary in the different mining districts. If any difference of opinion arises as to what is customary, the matter is to be decided by the local conciliation machinery. In cases where continuous processes have to be maintained, such as coking of coal, working blast furnaces, or loading Admiralty coal, the Controller has expressed to the associations of coal-owners and workmen the hope that both owners and workmen will co-operate to meet the necessities of the case, and if by mutual arrangement between the management and the workmen work is done on any of the customary holidays war wage will be paid to men so working.

Electric Power Supply Committee

asked the President of the Board of Trade when the Committee appointed by him to consider the question of supply of electric power will report fully; if they have yet made any interim Report to him on the matter; and, if so, if he will state its purport?

I am unable to say when the Committee will make their Report, but, as I informed the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness on 31st October, there will be no unavoidable delay in view of the great importance of the subject. The Committee have not made an interim Report.

Defence of the Realm Regulations

Press Censorship

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the guiding principle of the Rules of the Censorship in regard to news to or from the United States; whether any American papers are subject to special restrictions from this side; and, if so, whether he will give an explanation of that condition of affairs?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. There is no principle in regard to censorship of news to or from the United States which differs from those which guide the Censors in dealing with news to or from other countries. One American news agency has been debarred from the use of facilities for the transmission of news for reasons explained in notices issued by the Press Bureau, and published in the Press on the 11th and 20th October, 1916.

asked whether any steps have been taken by His Majesty's Government to render it necessary for the editors of newspapers to refer any important communications from distinguished statesmen or others to the Censor or some other authority if such communication, on account of the influence of the individual or society responsible, is likely to impair the unity of the Allied cause?

There is no obligation on newspapers to submit to the Press Bureau the communications referred to or any other matter.

In view of what recently happened, does not the Government consider an alteration to be necessary?

asked the Home Secretary whether the letter of Dr. Hagberg Wright, published in a London daily newspaper of 13th December, advocating the release of two Russian subjects now interned, was submitted to the Censor before publication?

Why are people allowed to say in Lord Northcliffe's papers what hon. Members are not allowed to say in this House?

I am not aware that that is so. I think hon. Members in this House take full licence.

Leaflets (Censorship)

asked the Home Secretary whether he has received any letters or resolutions of protest against the censoring of leaflets as proposed by Regulation 27 c; and, if so, how many?

Before the right hon. Gentleman answers this question, may I ask him whether he is aware that there is a very strong feeling of indignation in the country against, the activities of the hon. Member for North Somerset and his pacifist friends?

I cannot deal with that question without notice. As to the question on the Paper, I have received about ninety such letters or resolutions, but all of these apparently referred to the Regulation apart from the Amendments now proposed.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a leaflet, entitled the "New Dictatorship of Opinion," and published by the National Council of Civil Liberties, which incites the public to oppose the Government in connection with the recent Order under the Defence of the Realm Act; and what action he proposes to take?

I have seen the leaflet in question, but it does not come within the terms of Regulation 27 C, and I find no ground for any proceedings in connection with it.

asked whether the reprints of hon. Members' speeches from the OFFICIAL REPORT as supplied by His Majesty's Stationery Office are considered as leaflets for the purposes of Regulation 27 C?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division on the 23rd November.

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to a pamphlet entitled "The Revolution," published by the S. L. Press, 46, Renfrew Street, Glasgow, which openly advocates revolution; and what action he proposes to take?

This matter is receiving my attention, in consultation with my right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Lord Advocate.

Internments

asked how many British subjects are at this moment interned under Regulation 14 B of the Defence of the Realm Act?

asked the Home Secretary whether he has received any letters or resolutions of protest against the internment of George Tchitcherine?

"Labour Leader."

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to the contents of the "Labour Leader" newspaper of 6th December on an appeal for toys for the children in Elizabeth Hospital, alleging that some of these bombs which wounded little children belonged to the Allies; and whether, in view of this insinuation against the chivalry of the Royal Flying Corps and with a view to preventing discredit being cast upon the British Army, he proposes to take any and, if any, what action under the Defence of the Realm Act?

I have read the statement referred to. If the writer meant to suggest that any of the children in the Elizabeth Hospital at Poperinghe were injured by bombs dropped by the Allies, he was of course making a deliberate misstatement. But if he intended only to suggest that Belgian children may have suffered by the bombardment of places of military importance in Belgium, he was making an assertion which cannot yet be either proved or disproved; and in view of the ambiguity of the paragraph I do not think that proceedings could be taken in respect of it. I would, however, point out that while we have endured for three years the wilful and deliberate attacks by the Germans on the civil population, including women and children, the whole country is aware that the Royal Flying Corps in their attacks on the enemy's strongholds in Belgium have done their utmost to avoid injury to the Belgian inhabitants.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that further insinuations of a slanderous character against the Royal Flying Corps are not permitted in the Press?

Ex-King Constantine

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that ex-King Constantine is the centre of a group of men who are carrying on in Switzerland active pro-German propaganda; whether he is aware that this group directs a paper at Geneva called "L'Echo de Grèce, and is now about to launch another under the title "Le Réveil National"; and whether, seeing that the pension of £20,000 paid to the ex-king is of assistance in this anti-Entente movement, he will revise his decision in regard to that pension and advise the Greek Government to stop the payment?

I can add nothing to the reply returned to the hon. Member on 13th December.

Has not the Noble Lord received this additional information since he gave that reply, namely, that from the money thus supplied ex-King Constantine is actively fomenting anti-Allied propaganda? Is not that Boloism in the worst form?

Questions

Russia

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has seen a decree issued on 26th November, 1917, by the Russian Commissary of the People for Foreign Affairs in which the attitude of the Russian Government towards certain former Russian Ministers and representatives in foreign countries is declared; and whether he can, consistently with the public interest, make any statement on this subject?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative; to the second, in the negative.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether British subjects can freely return from Russia if they desire to do so, or whether, as has been stated, that permission is now refused?

Last month there was some doubt as to the extent to which liberty of movement was enjoyed by British subjects in Russia. I believe, however, that the difficulty has now been removed. Some days ago it was arranged that facilities would be given for the repatriation of any Russians innocent of any offence punishable by the laws of Great Britain who desire to return to their own country, and full liberty of movement would be given to British subjects residing in Russia.

Allies' War Aims

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will take into consideration the reasons given by Mr. Flood, as representing the United States Administration, for not at present declaring war on Turkey and Bulgaria, with a view to a statement, in conjunction with our Allies and America, to the effect that our war aims with regard to these two Powers differ materially from those that apply to Germany?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in conjunction with our Allies and America, he will now issue a statement to the effect that under no circumstances will peace terms be discussed or concluded with Germany on behalf of Turkey or Bulgaria, but that each of these two Powers must be dealt with separately?

Military Service

Russian Subjects

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether either the War Cabinet or the Army Council has considered the effect of the withdrawal by Russia from belligerency on those Russian subjects brought into the British Army by the Military Service (Conventions with Allied States) Act; and whether it is intended to conscript Russian subjects even though Russia has ceased to conscript British subjects?

Scottish Council of British Socialists (Secretary)

asked the Secretary for Scotland on what grounds John D. Mackay, secretary of the Scottish District Council of British Socialists, has been sentenced to one year's hard labour, which he is now undergoing at Wormwood Scrubs, in view of the fact that he expressed himself willing to do work of national importance under the Home Office scheme, but was refused such on the strength of a Report received from the Central Tribunal?

If my hon. Friend will give me Mackay's number and regiment, and, if possible, the date of the court-martial, I will have inquiries made.

Medical Examination

asked the Minister of National Service why men who are now being medically examined under the new scheme are refused by the doctors any information as to what grade they are now being put in; and whether, for the convenience of employers and the satisfaction of the men, he will give instructions that this information shall be given to all men who are medically examined?

The hon. Member has been misinformed; it is not the case that men medically examined by National Service Boards are refused information of the grades in which they are placed as a result of the examination. Every man fit for any form of military service receives a card (M.N.S. Form 3291) on which his medical grading is plainly stated, Grade 1, Grade 2, or Grade 3, as the case may be. Every man found to be totally and permanently unfit for military service receives a certificate (M.N.S. Form R. 2079) discharging him from all further liability to military service.

Conscientious Objectors

asked the Home Secretary whether he has received a further report upon the case of Arthur Butler, a conscientious objector who has died in Preston Gaol; and what action he has taken or proposes to take in the matter?

The inquest in this case, which was opened on the 14th instant, has been adjourned to the 18th to allow of a post-mortem examination being held. I can, therefore, make no statement at present.

Soldiers' Promotion

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any soldiers have been punished for refusing promotion?

I am afraid that my hon. Friend's question is not specific enough to enable me to answer. If he will give me details of any case he has in mind I will endeavour to furnish him with a reply.

Soldiers and Politics

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the King's Regulation No. 451 is intended to apply to soldiers being forbidden to attend publicly-convened political meetings and in no way interferes with the attendance of soldiers in uniform at the ordinary meetings of trades unions?

The provisions of paragraph 451 of the King's Regulations are not intended to prevent soldiers attending meetings of their trades unions provided such meetings are not specially convened for the purpose of discussing political matters.

Munitions

Priority Permits (Allegations)

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he can now state the name of the official of the Ministry of Munitions against whom allegations have been made in a recent affidavit?

The allegations are being investigated. I have nothing to add to the statement I made in debate on the 12th instant.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman say whether the Department have yet ascertained who is the official responsible, if they cannot give his name? Have they found out who he is?

Will the hon. Gentleman say when he will have something to add to that statement?

Christmas and New Year Holidays

asked what arrangements have been made for the taking of Christmas and New Year holidays in the munition works, shipbuilding yards, and other establishments engaged in war work in Scotland?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on the 12th December to the hon. Member for West Newington.

Tanks

asked the Minister of Munitions whether he has any record of the first design and experiment in tank or land-battle ships conducted by the Royal Naval Air Service; whether he is aware that the designs of Mr. R. F. Macsie, then an officer in the Armoured Division, were attempted and subsequently opportunities for the completion of the machine were refused; whether he is aware that the machine in its main essentials was identical with the Government type of tank produced in 1916; whether he is aware that the later designs of Mr. R. F. Macsie are adjudged by qualified engineers to be an improvement on the latest type of tank, and, under these circumstances, will he state why the Ministry of Munitions have persistently refused to grant the necessary priority certificate to obtain material to build an experimental model of the Macsie tank at private expense; and, having regard to the value of this new instrument of war and the desirability of constant development of new designs, if he will give instructions for this priority certificate to be granted without further delay?

The answers to the first four parts of the question are in the negative. Mr. McFie has received every encouragement to submit designs which would furnish sufficient support for the claims which he makes for his invention to justify the Ministry in granting the priority asked for. No such evidence has been produced, and, under existing conditions, it is impossible to sanction the diversion of labour and materials to the manufacture of an experimental machine.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he inferred by his answer that they have no knowledge of the inventor or the early working in connection with the tanks, and that that does not agree with the published statement; and is he aware that the people whose names he most freely published in connection with the tanks are not the inventors of the tanks whatsoever; and that Robert Macsie, who is referred to in this question, had more to do with the early working than any other man in England?

Questions

National Shipyards

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he can now give an estimate of the cost of the national shipyard at Chepstow?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the First Lord's speech on the 12th December, in which he stated in relation to the national shipyards that

"The total cost of the development which comprises hutting accommodation and all the necessary facilities, in addition to the mere provision of 34 shipbuilding berths, is estimated at £3,887,000."

Certain works will be common to two or more yards, and the actual details of such costs have not been allocated to the various yards. It may be roughly taken, however, that the pro rata estimate for the Chepstow Yard is, in round figures, between £800,000 and £900,000.

May I ask where the machinery will be obtained for this yard; and for how many people it is proposed to provide dwelling-house accommodation?

With regard to the first question, that was answered a month ago. We hope to get enough machinery from the existing marine engineers' shops in the country. With regard to the second part of the question, we are making provision in advance for all those who are expected to be employed.

asked if Major-General Collard is retained by the Admiralty as the chief officer connected with the construction and organisation of the new national shipyards; whether he has had any previous practical knowledge of shipbuilding; and whether it was as the result of disagreement with this officer that the Advisory Committee on National Shipyards recently resigned?

In regard to the laying out of the yards themselves, General Collard is in charge. He is advised by the practical shipbuilders and engineers, whose names I gave in an answer on the 14th November. General Collard was responsible for the construction of the Richborough Yard and the cross-Channel barges there built. As regards the last part of the question, I think my hon. Friend is under some misapprehension. The Advisory Committee, no doubt, took the view that when responsibility for new merchant ship construction passed to the Admiralty it was not for the time being consulted to the extent that it might have been, if it had not been necessary to execute the commission placed upon the Admiralty with such expedition. I am not aware that this incident could be fairly described as arising from disagreement between General Collard and the Advisory Committee. In any case, we are happy in the knowledge that the members of the Advisory Committee are now giving their valuable services to us either as members of the Shipbuilding Council or as expert advisers of the Controller's Department.

I would like to add this, if I may: In connection with the development of the national shipyards, I have myself had the advantage of seeing General Collard at work on the spot—as well as, of course, in the office. I am convinced that the execution of this most vital matter is in most capable hands.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the part of the question which asks whether General Collard has had any previous practical knowledge of shipbuilding?

I have already answered that. I said that General Collard was responsible for the construction of the Richborough Yard and the cross-Channel barges.

Standardised Ships

asked whether certain features in the design of the standard ships which it is proposed to construct in the new national shipyards have been considered by some leading shipbuilders to be a dangerous experiment; and whether, in the circumstances he will lay the design and papers relating to the matter upon the Table of the House for the inspection of Members?

I am not aware that any of the features of the design of the standardised ships to be built in the national shipyards are considered by any shipbuilders to be a dangerous experiment. The constructive details of this type are being worked out by two of the largest private merchant shipbuilding firms in the United Kingdom. The classification societies are being consulted at each stage, and before the ships are built the plans and the details of construction will be approved by them.

At the moment a Committee has been formed, on which the classification societies are represented, for the purpose of considering and approving the constructive details which the shipbuilders are working out. As regards the last part of the question, I am not sure whether any prejudice to the public interest could arise by placing a copy of the complete design of a ship of this type in the Library of the House. I will consider that with the proper authorities.

Are we to understand that these standard ships will not be proceeded with until the designs have been approved by the authorities and the Committee he has mentioned?

They are being designed with the assistance of two of the largest merchant ship-building firms in the United Kingdom. They have to be submitted to the classification societies.

Is it not a fact that a large number of slips in private yards are vacant?

The First Lord announced in his statement the other day that existing shipyards would be used to their fullest capacity before going on with the new national shipyards.

Is it not a fact that in existing dockyards and shipyards there are quite a number of empty slips where they could put down a ship? Will the Admiralty utilise all these slips before proceeding with the new arrangement?

I know that every time it is proposed to give new additional work the first thing asked for is more men. I am not aware that slips suitable for this work are available.

Will the right hon. Gentleman have inquiries made as to any vacant slips that may be available?

British Trawlers Attacked by German Destroyers

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he can make a statement regarding the attack by a flotilla of large German destroyers on British trawlers a few miles off a Northeast coast port, when British lives were lost and British vessels sunk?

The fishing steam trawlers. "Ranter" and "J. J. Smart" were attacked by gunfire off the Tyne at about 4.30 in the morning of the 12th December. The former was damaged, the latter sunk—eight men are reported killed on both trawlers. The first report stated that the attack was made by submarines, but later reports are to the effect that it was made by destroyers. I ought to add that in addition to the attack on the trawlers to which my hon. Friend refers, two neutral merchant ships were sunk about the same time.

Why is it that a fact like this requires to be brought out by question and answer in the House instead of being given in the Admiralty communiqué?

I do not know about being brought out. I imagine that we had not got the whole of the information, that is all.

Does the right hon. Gentleman say that the officer had not this information in time to give if?

So far as I am concerned I only got it this morning. I imagine that the officer had not the information fully before him, otherwise he would have issued a communiqué.

Housing (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will, without undue delay, set up a separate Reconstruction Committee of a representative character to deal with questions of housing in Scotland?

In view of the recent Report of the Scottish Royal Commission on Housing, and after consultation with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Reconstruction, I do not think a further Committee is required.

Reconstruction Problems (Scotland)

asked what steps are being taken to deal with reconstruction problems relating specially to Scotland; whether any Committees or Sub-committees have been or are about to be set up by the Minister of Reconstruction dealing with the different pressing problems which will arise in Scotland after the War; and, if so, whether he will see that Scottish Members of Parliament are appointed to these Committees?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. In setting up Committees for dealing with questions of reconstruction, due regard has been paid to the representation of Scottish opinion and interests, and I am in consultation from time to time with my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland as to the best way for providing that any conditions specially affecting Scotland are adequately dealt with.

I would not like to answer that question definitely without notice, but I think there are Scottish representatives on most of these Committees.

Brewing and Distilling Industries (Ireland)

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware of the effect of the restrictions on the brewing and distilling industries of Ireland; if many Irish pot stills are now lying idle whilst the patent stills are working full pressure in England and Scotland; what reward is to be given to the thousands earning their living in these industries for the part which Ireland has taken in food production; if he is aware that 700,000 additional acres were tilled last year; if, owing to the Government restrictions, hundreds of small licensed traders have failed to obtain supplies of whisky for their Christmas trade; and what action he proposes to take in this matter?

I have been asked to reply. I have already informed the hon. Member that in view of the actual and prospective stocks of cereals it is inadvisable to relax the restrictions on brewing and distilling, nor is it in contemplation to sanction the further release of spirits from bond.

Have not the Government relaxed the restrictions in brewing already during the last two quarters of this year?

That may be so, but the demand in the question is for a further relaxation.

Will the present relaxation of restrictions be continued through next quarter?

Roumania (Armistice)

asked the Prime Minister what the terms are under which Roumania has concluded an armistice?

Before this question is answered, may I ask if the Prime Minister is aware that there is a very strong feeling of indignation at the manner in which he is subsidising ex-King Constantine?

I have no information regarding the terms of the armistice negotiated by the Roumanian Army beyond what has appeared in the Press, except that I understand that it will only be connected with the general or local Russian armistice so far as its duration is concerned.

Discharged Soldiers

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the statement of the Chairman of the House of Commons Tribunal stating that there seems to be no attempt to use soldiers coming back fit for civil life by the thousand; and whether he can make any statement of what the Government is doing in respect of these men?

I am informed that the Chairman of the House of Commons Tribunal did not make the statement referred to by my hon. Friend.

asked the Postmaster-General how many soldiers who were postal servants before the War have now been discharged from the Army; how many have made application for reinstatement; and how many have been reinstated?

About 3,000 Post Office servants have been discharged from the Army. All regular Post Office servants who are released by the Department for military or naval service have their places kept open for them, and on discharge automatically revert to their position in the Post Office without making application. No such man, if fit to resume work, has been refused reinstatement.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether there are 10,000 soldiers ready for discharge and awaiting discharge in the various hospitals in the country, but who cannot be returned to civil life owing to the need of intermediate institutions wherein they can complete their cure; and, if so, what action he is taking in the matter?

I have no information as to the accuracy of my hon. Friend's estimate, but I understand there are a number of men in military hospitals who will not be again fit for service. With the assistance of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions I hope to be able to reduce the pressure on the hospitals.

Supreme War Council (Naval)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now state the nature of the methods by which unified Naval effort is being attained by the Versailles War Council?

I would refer the hon. Member to the statement which appeared in the Press on this subject on Saturday last.

In as much as we had the actual terms of the agreement when this Council was set up for military control, may we have the terms of the agreement as regards the naval control?

I think the information given is as much as it is considered desirable to give in the public interest.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether any statement will be made explaining why that arrangement is on a totally different foundation from that of the Military War Council, and why it simply reaffirms what has existed all along?

It does nothing of the kind. There is a very much closer relation between the Allied Navies in consequence of this agreement, and the reason the two are not parallel is that, as a matter of fact, the military and naval conduct of the War are not altogether on the same lines.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Prime Minister to refer to this matter in his speech?

War Cabinet (Military Advisers)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can state the terms of the appointment of the Chief of the General Staff; and whether it is in the power of the War Cabinet to choose their military advisers or whether the terms of the appointment are such that the Chief of the General Staff cannot be removed without the Royal assent?

The appointment of Chief of the Staff is made in the usual way by the Secretary of State for War, after consultation with the War Cabinet.

Liquor Traffic

asked the Prime Minister whether the Bill to deal with the liquor traffic will contain provisions for giving effect to his statement made to a Welsh deputation that the right solution for the question of alcoholic liquor can best be reached by a combination of State ownership and local option?

Has the Prime Minister committed himself to any statement with regard to State purchase, and, if so, will he take into account the statement of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bonar Law), that the whole matter would be discussed in the House of Commons?

I do not know what statement my right hon. Friend may have made as to his own personal view, but the statement which I made in this House, that nothing would be done without the knowledge of the House of Commons, was the statement of the Government.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these companies are making about 800 per cent, profit, and that, therefore, a very big price will have to be given?

Cambrai (Joy Bells)

asked the Prime Minister on whose authority orders were given that joy bells should be rung and flags displayed to celebrate the victory of Cambrai; whether this was done on the authority of the War Cabinet; and, if not, whether he will see that such celebrations are not repeated in future without the sanction of the Cabinet?

The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the negative. As regards the last part, I do not see how it would be possible to give effect to the hon. Member's suggestion.

Members of Parliament (Railway Travelling)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the general rise of prices and the increased difficulty of living, coupled with the fact that the War has thrown upon Members of Parliament a greater amount of work, often necessitating travelling, he will make arrangements whereby, as in most other great States, Members of Parliament may travel free, at least on the railways?

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that Members of this House should be as well informed as possible, and is it not desirable to facilitate them in their desire to get information?

I do not think that there are many Members in the House who really desire it.

Air Council

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now state the names and constitution of the new Air Council?

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give it before the Adjournment?

Army Officers (Pay)

asked the Prime Minister whether, before the House adjourns, he will be prepared to make a statement in connection with the increase of pay of junior and married officers; and if it is the intention of the Government to make any war bonus to enable them to discharge extraneous liabilities which their military services have compelled them to increase?

I can add nothing to what I stated in reply to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh on Wednesday last.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of the prolonged delay in making the promised announcement on junior officers' pay and the difficulties immediately confronting many married captains and lieutenants, he will arrange that any increase of pay shall be credited at Army agents on the same day that the announcement is made, and that the officers concerned shall actually receive the additional pay and allowances before Christmas?

Although I cannot give the undertakings asked for, I am sure that the Departments concerned are as anxious as my hon. and gallant Friend that no unnecessary delay shall occur.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the Army Council has decided that a captain in the Territorial Force who has had over twelve years' service and served three years as a captain, either during mobilisation or otherwise, is not entitled to the extra pay as stated in the Royal Warrant for Pay, paragraphs 207 and 228, unless the service is regular or embodied; if he is aware that by Army Council Instruction, added as a footnote to paragraph 207, such rates of pay are applicable to the Territorial Force while mobilised; if this is so, whether he will state why the Territorial officer should be treated differently as he now forms part of the Army; and whether this ruling practically debars any Territorial officer from ever receiving the increased rate of pay, in view of the fact that he is never likely to have served twelve years' embodied service?

It is the case that only embodied service counts for this purpose. There is nothing inconsistent with this in the Army Council Instructon referred to. I think my hon. and gallant Friend will see that a distinction between a year's peace service in the Territorial Force and a year's full-time service in the Regular Army is not altogether unreasonable.

Halifax Disaster

asked the Prime-Minister what are the total numbers of deaths and other casualties in connection with the Halifax disaster?

No exact figures are yet available, but 444 bodies have so far been identified. I hope to be in a position to give fuller information later.

Irish Convention

asked the Prime Minister if we may expect a Report from the Dublin Convention before the House rises for the Christmas holidays?

Questions to Ministers

asked the Prime Minister whether as a war measure he will consider the desirability of inviting the House to limit the right of members to five questions for oral answer per week in lieu of the present limit of eight a day?

Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I draw his attention to the fact that the hon. Member has already asked seven questions himself to-day?

I cannot add anything to the answer which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth on the 12th of December.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the persistency with which certain hon. Members endeavour to harass the Government is regarded in the country as a perfect scandal?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the indolence of certain Members of this House in the interests of their constituents is considered a perfect scandal?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give early opportunity, before the Adjournment if possible, for the following Resolution to be moved:

"That this House is of opinion that any question, which, in the opinion of the Speaker is calculated to embarrass the Government in the conduct of the War, shall be placed in a special list and that the said question and the answer thereto shall be considered as secret communications, and that no publication of the same in any newspaper, pamphlet, public speech, or in any other form, shall be allowed, and that any infringement of this Order shall be considered as an offence under the Defence of the Realm Regulations and shall be punished accordingly."

Before the question is answered, may I ask why it was not put on the Paper so that hon. Members could have been warned?

It will be impossible to find time for a special discussion before the Adjournment, but I recognise the importance of the subject. It is now being considered by the Government, and I hope to be able to come to a decision in regard to it during the Recess. My hon. Friend will, however, understand that this difficulty is by no means confined to questions.

May I ask whether most of the questions which the Government have refused to answer, particularly those dealing with naval movements, have not been asked by Members sitting on the bench below me?

It is not that questions are intentionally embarrassing, but sometimes a great deal of information is given by public questions being asked without the intention of giving information to the enemy.

Before the right hon. Gentleman makes up his mind, will he explain what he means by embarrassing the Government? Does he not know that every hon. and right hon. Member on the Treasury Bench has a perfect right to tell the House that he refuses to answer a question on the ground of public policy; and is not that sufficient guarantee that no information is given?

The hon. Member overlooks the fact that the question itself gives information. I can assure him that the Government quite realises the difficulty of dealing with this matter, and the undesirability of interfering more than is absolutely necessary with the freedom of hon. Members.

Is it not a fact that Mr. Speaker has at present under the Standing Orders the power to suggest to any hon. Member that a question which he is seeking to put on the Paper is not one which on the ground of public policy ought to be put on the Paper; and, if that be so, is there any ground for further strengthening Mr. Speaker's hands?

Is there any power on the part of the Speaker other than suggestion? Has Mr. Speaker mandatory power?

I have no power to stop questions. Under the Rules, I have no powers, in the proper sense of the word, to apply to a Member not to put a question. I have sometimes a desire to do so, and sometimes I exercise that desire; but I would point out that I am not the repository of the secrets of the Government, the War Office, or the Admiralty. Therefore, I am not a competent person to decide as to whether a question is or is not likely to give information which it is undesirable the enemy should obtain.

Is it not a fact that since the War started the number of questions which have come under the definition referred to in the Resolution are a very minor percentage of the total questions asked in the House; and, under these circumstances, does the right hon. Gentleman think it necessary to do away with a very small evil and to create a much greater evil by taking away the liberty of hon. Members in regard to the asking of questions?

This question was asked without my knowledge, and it does not indicate any decision on the part of the Government. If the proportion of the questions referred to is very small, I must say that I have had my attention called by the War Office to certain cases where information which ought not to go to the enemy has gone in the form of questions. I have asked them to give me information, and to give me a complete list. I certainly do not wish to take any action which is not made necessary in the public interest.

Is it proposed seriously to muzzle those Members who are more anti-German than the Government themselves and who believe that the best interests of the country would be served by substituting for the present Government one more efficient, more active, and more energetic?

I am quite sure that if any change is made it will not be of such a nature as to prevent the hon. Member putting a question suggesting that he, instead of I, should lead the House.

I desire to ask whether it is not the case that in all questions relating to the Admiralty, the Admiralty have in the past approached Members in relation to any questions which they thought would give information which is undesirable, and that in all cases those questions have either been withdrawn or modified; and whether, if that be so, it is only at the request of the War Office, who have not followed that course, that this procedure is now suggested?

That is really a misapprehension. I have had my attention called to questions which were being asked the effect of which the clerks at the Table or Mr. Speaker were not able to see.

Would the right hon. Gentleman object to laying before the House a statement of the questions which were harmful and which were asked?

I am sure I cannot promise to do that. That would simply be advertising information which possibly may not have been noticed?

War Charities

asked the Chancellor of the Excheqquer whether the National Association of Discharged Sailors and Soldiers requires to be registered as a war charity, and, if so, for what reason; is he aware that an application made by a branch of this association to the Accrington Watch Committee for the registration of their association under the War Charities Act has been refused on the ground that the objects of the association are not of a charitable character; and why, in view of this decision, branches of the association are still being called upon to register under the War Charities Act?

The Law Officers of the Crown have advised that this association is a war charity within the terms of the War Charities Act, 1916. I have no information as to any action by the Accrington Watch Committee, but I would explain that under the Act the final decision whether an organisation is a War Charity lies entirely with the Charity Commissioners.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the organisation known as the Comrades of the Great War is also a war charity?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware of the existence of an organisation called the Comrades of the Great War; whether this organisation is appealing for public sub- scriptions to the extent of £1,000,000; whether this organisation is registered as a war charity; whether Members of Parliament prominently associated with this organisation are writing to political organisations asking for support on the ground that the object of this Comrades of the Great War movement is to counteract Socialism; and whether an organisation having this for its object is entitled to be registered as a war charity?

The answer to the first and third parts of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second in the negative. As regards the fourth part, I have no information to the effect that the organisation has other than its registered objects. These do not bear out the hon Member's suggestion that the movement is in any way political.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make it illegal to use the word "charity" in connection with any organisation for giving just relief to soldiers?

Engineering and Foundry Trades (Wages)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will state the additional annual expenditure involved by the various awards of the Committee on Production for engineering and foundry trades, including the advance of 5s. a week, which comes into operation this month?

As the rates of increase of wages in the trades mentioned are known, no estimate of cost could be given without indicating the number of employés affected. This would afford information which I am informed ought not to be made public.

National War Bonds

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will state the total amount raised by National War Bonds down to 15th December or to the latest available date?

The proceeds of National War Bonds paid into the Exchequer to 15th December amounted to £149,227,000, but the total amount applied for up to that date was £174,263,000.

Treasury Bills

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will state the total amount raised by Treasury Bills during the ten weeks ended 8th December last; and the total amount of Treasury Bills repaid during the same period?

Does the right hon. Gentleman see any prospect of stopping this issue of Treasury Bills?

I hope it will end when the War ends. I see no prospect of not financing a large part of the expenditure by this means.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

asked the Minister of Pensions whether any general principles have been laid down to govern the granting of pensions to officers and men invalided out of the Service on account of ill-health, and of those discharged owing to wounds; who are the authorities responsible for granting such pensions; and what steps are taken to secure the adoption of a uniform policy on this matter?

Retired pay to officers invalided and pensions to soldiers discharged on account of sickness or wounds are granted by the Ministry of Pensions under the authority of the Royal Warrants. These grants and the policy governing them were very carefully considered when the Warrants of March and August last were drawn up. Officers retired for wounds of a very severe character may be granted wound gratuities and pensions by the Admiralty or War Office, and the value of these is taken into account in determining the retired pay.

Would it not be better if the whole of these pensions were granted by one authority alone?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Gunner James A. Pirie, Glasgow, made an application for a grant from the Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Committee to meet his civil liabilities, which included a loan of £100 received for business purposes (Case L.S./C 1,947); that, in dismissing his appeal for exemption, the sheriff who presided over the Appeal Tribunal assured him that he need not worry, as the Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Committee would see that proper provision was made in respect of his liabilities; whether he is aware that the grant made by the Committee of £32 a year is only barely sufficient to pay rent and taxes and takes no account of the loan; whether, as stated by the Committee, they are precluded from making a grant in respect of a loan incurred after their appointment, even though at that time the applicant was an exempted man and had no expectation that he would be called up for service; and, if so, whether an instruction will be issued to tribunals not to give assurances to appellants which the Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Committee is debarred from fulfilling?

I have been asked to answer this question. This case was very carefully considered by the Advisory Committee, and, as stated, a grant has been made to cover the applicant's liabilities in respect of rent, rates, and insurance, but, in view of the fact that the loan referred to was raised several months after the civil liabilities scheme came into operation and that there was no evidence that the applicant would have been able to repay it before the end of next year, when the repayment is due, even if he had not been called upon to join the Army, the Advisory Committee were of opinion that a grant could not properly be made for the discharge of the debt. If, however, the lender is willing to extend the period of repayment I will ask the Advisory Committee to consider whether a grant could be made to cover the payment of interest on the loan while the applicant is serving with the forces.

Australian Soldiers' Pay

asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information showing that if Conscrip- tion is carried in Australia the pay of the Australian soldier is proposed to be reduced to 1s. 6d. a day?

There is not the slightest foundation for this rumour. It has been officially contradicted by the Prime Minister of Australia, and I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for giving me an opportunity to repeat the contradiction here, and to express my profound regret that statements which can only be intended to cause trouble should be made.

Soldiers' Leave

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the advisability of making better arrangements at Boulogne for ensuring that the troops returning on leave from the front are not compelled, as is now often the case, to go without food for as long as twelve hours?

If my hon. Friend will give me details of a case where a man has not received a meal for twelve hours, I will have it investigated. I am informed from France that the rule is that men are marched from the quay to the rest camp, where they receive a hot meal within two hours of disembarkation.

I shall be very pleased to supply the right hon. Gentleman with details.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been drawn to the case of a soldier, Private James Woods, No. 17265, Royal Irish Fusiliers, who has served for over three years, at home, in France, and with the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force, without obtaining any leave; and whether any arrangements have yet been made, or are likely to be made before long, to enable men engaged in distant theatres of war to obtain leave more freely than has hitherto been found practicable?

I have recently written to my hon. Friend about Private Woods. In regard to the general question, I am afraid that I can add nothing to what I said in Debate oh 31st October.

The hon. Gentleman told me the question of further leave for men in distant theatres of war was being considered. I put down the question hoping to get further information.

I shall be very glad to show the hon. Member a letter received from the Commander-in-Chief. General Milne.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the fact that soldiers who visit their homes on special leave on such occasions as illness or death of their relatives often have to pay railway fares for very long distances; and if he will consider the possibility of making arrangements that these men should pay a sum not exceeding a certain fixed amount however far they travel and thus to some extent prevent penalising the man who, by a pure accident, is stationed further away from his home than another?

In the case of the dangerous illness, duly certified by a qualified medical practitioner or death of a parent, wife, or child, arrangements are already in force for the issue of a free warrant.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that troops on leave in this country are only entitled to a free ticket to their destination, and that in the event of their wishing to visit other near relatives they are compelled to pay the full ordinary return fares plus the 50 per cent.; and whether, as is now the case with officers, they may be permitted to obtain Army Form No. 0 1800, which would entitle them to travel at single fare for the return journey, not including the 50 per cent.?

This question is already under consideration, and I will make the decision known as soon as I am in a position to do so.

Palestine and Mesopotamia (Railways)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War (1) how many miles of railway have now been built or reconstructed on metre gauge or standard gauge by British enterprise in Palestine; and what proportion of rails have been supplied by Egypt and India respectively; (2) how many miles of railway have now been built by British enterprise in Mesopotamia; what proportion of rails and sleepers have been supplied from India; and (3) whether he can state the gauge of the following railways in Palestine and Syria: Jerusalem to Jaffa, Gaza to Lydda, Lydda to Damascus, Beirut to Damascus, Haifa to Damascus, Damascus to Hedjaz, Damascus to Aleppo?

I do not think that it would be in the public interest to make this information public. If my hon. and gallant Friend cares to call at the Directorate of Military Railways, information can be supplied privately.

Soldiers' Wives (Travelling Facilities)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the wives of soldiers may be allowed half-fare tickets once every twelve months for the purpose of visiting their homes and relatives, just as is now the case in connection with the wives of Royal Naval Air Service men?

Under present circumstances, I fear this very large extension of travelling facilities would hardly be justified.

War Office (Temporary Clerks)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he will state the scale of wages paid to temporary clerks at the War Office; how many hours a week they work; what is the amount paid per hour for overtime; and how these payments compare with the wages of munition workers?

The pay given to temporary male civilian clerks rises from 31s. 6d. a week by 1s. 6d. annually to 42s., plus a war bonus of 8s. or 7s., according as the pay is below or above 40s. The period is forty-two hours a week, and overtime is at 10d. an hour.

I cannot answer that. If my hon. and gallant Friend will address a question on the subject to the Ministry of Munitions he will be able to get the information.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of these clerks have very little to do, and could he not see his way to reduce the number?

Seeing the enormous increase in the price of living, will my right hon. Friend inquire whether there can be some increase in the war bonus of 7s. or 8s. a week? Surely these amounts do not cover the increased cost of living?

Navy (Transfers to Army)

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether men transferred from the Navy to the Army will have the same advantages in every way extended to them as men to be transferred in future from the Army to the Air Board; and, if not, what is the difference in the conditions?

I understand that my hon. and gallant Friend is attempting to compare the casual interchange of men between the old-established Naval and Military Services with the special arrangements made on the division of the Air Service from the Army. The circumstances are entirely different, but if he will indicate to me more precisely the case he has in view, I may be able to give him a more specific answer.

Are men transferred from the Army to the Air Service to be treated in the same liberal way as men transferred from the Army to the Navy or from the Navy to the Army—will they be put under the same actual conditions?

No; the two cases are not really comparable. One is a casual interchange and the other is a clean-cut division.

Are not these various classes of men serving the country to the best of their ability, and why should one group be handicapped as compared with another?

Old Age Pensions

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that, on the 3ist March, 1915, the local pensions sub-committee in Glasgow intimated to Mr. Alexander Weir, 30, Blantyre Street, Glasgow, that the Local Government Board for Scotland were satisfied that he had attained the age of seventy years by 2nd December, 1914, and that they therefore allowed him a pension of 5s. per week from the first Friday after that date; and that from that time, nearly three years ago, till now Mr. Weir has not received a penny of the promised pension; and whether he can explain or will at once inquire into the delay which has occurred and which has caused distress and privation to Mr. Weir and take steps to have the pension paid with the accumulated arrears?

Mr. Weir made claims to old age pensions and separation allowance about the same time, but if he was entitled to the separation allowance awarded to him he was not then entitled to an old age pension at the 5s. rate. Owing to the loss of papers there has been regrettable delay in clearing up the case. At the present time Mr. Weir appears to be entitled to old age pension at the 5s. rate and directions have been issued for payment accordingly. Any arrears of old age pension due to him will be paid as soon as possible.

Convoy Destroyed (North Sea)

Court of Inquiry

I regret to inform the House that a convoy bound from Scotland to Norway was attacked by the enemy on the 12th December. The convoy consisted of one British and five neutral ships, and totalled about 8,000 tons of shipping. They were protected by an anti-submarine escort of two destroyers, "Partridge" and "Pellew," and four armed trawlers. For some reason as yet unexplained the force which had been sent to sea by the Commander-in-Chief, Grand Fleet, for the purpose of protecting the Scandinavian Convoys against attack by surface vessels was not on the scene of the action in time to prevent the destruction of the convoy. A second convoy which was also being covered was not attacked.

The whole of the circumstances connected with the attack on the convoy, the escape of the enemy vessels, and the absence of the protecting vessels detailed by the Commander-in-Chief to protect it, are being inquired into by a Court of Inquiry appointed by the Commander-in-Chief, presided over by Admiral Sir Doveton Sturdee with Vice-Admiral Sir John de Robeck and Rear-Admiral W. E. Goodenough, and the Commander-in-Chief has been requested to expedite the proceedings of the Court, which he reports was to hold its first sitting yesterday.

The circumstances of the attack, according to the information at present available, were as follows: H.M.S. "Partridge" sighted four enemy destroyers at about 11.45 a.m. on 12th December. Shortly afterwards an action resulted, "Pellew" and "Partridge" engaging the enemy while the convoy scattered in accordance with orders. Shortly after the engagement commenced "Pellew" observed that "Partridge" had been heavily hit, and a little later saw an explosion on board her, and she sank. About this time "Pellew" herself was holed on the waterline, and her engine-room filled with steam, her engines being partly disabled. She eventually was brought safely to this country.

The enemy then apparently attacked the convoy. The six merchant vessels and four armed trawlers were sunk, eighty-eight Scandinavians, two of whom were women, and ten British survivors were rescued by four destroyers, which had been detached at full speed from a cruiser squadron which was hastening to the scene. Other survivors reached Norway in boats. The entire crew (twelve) of the trawler "Lord Alver-stone" was saved in their own boat.

The casualties in H.M.S. "Pellew" were: One officer and three men killed, and two men seriously wounded. Information as to the survivors from H.M.S. "Partridge" is incomplete, but a telegram has been received from the British naval attaché in Holland that a report from Kiel states three officers and twenty-one men belonging to "Partridge," eleven men of the trawler "Livingstone" and one officer and fourteen men of the trawler "Tokio" have been brought there, ten of these are wounded. One of the three officers is stated to be Lieutenant Aubrey A. D. Grey of H.M.S. "Partridge."

May I ask whether the inquiry which was ordered recently in reference to the loss of another convoy has yet been concluded, and whether the conclusions arrived at will be laid upon the Table of the House?

The court-martial has been completed, and it is not proposed to lay papers upon the Table of the House.

Is it proposed to give any information whatever to the House of Commons on the subject?

I will consider the question subject to the public interest when this other matter has been inquired into, and, if I may be permitted to say so, as soon as the Court of Inquiry in this case which is now being held has finished its investigations I shall make a point of giving the House any information which may be possible, again having regard to the necessity of not giving information to the enemy.

In view of the Regulations of the Admiralty that the sentence of the court-martial is to be given in public, can we have the sentence in regard to the loss of the previous convoys? And will my right hon. Friend also say whether it is proposed to hold a court-martial in this case, after the Court of Inquiry, as the Court of Inquiry is not on oath and the court-martial is on oath?

As regards the former part of the question I do not think that I can deal with it. As regards the latter part of the question as to whether a court-martial will be held after the Court of Inquiry has been finished, that is a matter that we will have to consider when the result of the Court of Inquiry is known.

Ministry of Munitions (Priority Permits)

Personal Statement

I rise with your permission, Sir, to make a short personal statement with reference to the charge brought against me by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions on Wednesday, 12th December, and I claim this privilege and the indulgence of the House owing to the special circumstances in which this charge was made. At Question Time on Tuesday, 11th December, and on the Motion for the Adjournment on that same night, I drew the attention of this House to a case of alleged bribery, corruption, and blackmail, which had been sworn to by Lieutenant Beamish, of the Royal Engineers, and C. C. H. Pritchard, engineer, of 117, Ports-down Road, London. Further, on the Vote of Credit, I read to this House extracts from the deposition that these gentlemen made, and demanded that immediate action should be taken by the Public Prosecutor. The hon. Member for Colchester, in reply, attacked my good faith as follows:

I hold, Sir, that directly these papers were returned by the Director of Public Prosecutions to the Department concerned, proving that no prosecution was intended, the case was no longer, if it ever had been, sub judice . The officer called again on the following day to endeavour to press on the Director of Public Prosecutions the necessity for immediate action, and the official attitude again was to lead him to believe that no action would be taken. I contend, Sir, that the officer did quite right in bringing this case to me, and I contend that I neither abused nor misused my position as a Member of this House in giving this disgraceful incident the utmost publicity. The document I had in my possession proved conclusively that all the Departments concerned were passively opposing the course of justice. If their own intelligence did not suggest a means of bringing the guilty parties to trial, had they followed the suggestion contained in Mr. Roberts' letter to the Ministry of the 17th of November, the matter could have been cleared up within forty-eight hours, and to justify the action that I took in this House and to justify the personal statement I am now making, I refer the House to a paragraph in that letter, which states: sub judice , when he must have known that that remark was a gross misstatement of the fact.

The hon. Member is entitled to explain his own position, but he is not entitled to criticise another Member of the House or any Department.

May I ask for that statement to be withdrawn, the statement which said that I was using my position as a Member of this House to raise a matter which was sub judice?

The hon. Member is offending against the very law which I have just laid down. He is not exculpating himself, but trying to inculpate somebody else. That is not permitted on this occasion.

Has an hon. Member of this House no redress whatever if a statement of this kind is made by a member of the Government, that he was abusing his position as a Member of the House by raising matters which were sub judice when the matters were not sub judice?

The hon. Member is entitled to give his explanation. As I have already said twice, and am now saying for the third time, he is not entitled to criticise others.

New Member Sworn

Lieutenant-Commander William Dudley Ward, R.N.V.R, for the Borough of Southampton.

Orders of the Day

Education (Scotland)

I beg to ask leave to introduce a Bill, "to make further provision with respect to education in Scotland, and for the purposes connected therewith."

4.0 p.m.

I ask for the forbearance of the House while I endeavour to explain, in the limited time allotted to me, the provisions of the Education (Scotland) Bill. No Scottish Bill of recent times, I venture to say, has been more ardently desired or more eagerly awaited in Scotland than this Bill. It is, of course, unthinkable that there should be an Education Bill for England and that we should have no Education Bill for Scotland. The main object of the Bill is to effect a further improvement in the provision of education for all classes of the population, and to make that provision available to residents in remote and isolated districts. Accordingly it is proposed to raise the age for full time school attendance from fourteen to fifteen; to make attendance at continuation classes obligatory upon pupils between the ages of fifteen and eighteen, who are not in full time attendance at school; to restrict employment both before and after school hours of children attending school; and to regulate still further the employment of children or young persons under the age of fifteen in factories and in mines. Local authorities are empowered to provide books, particularly in rural districts, not only for children and young persons who are attending school, but also for adult readers. Provision is further made, in accordance with what I think is the traditional aspiration of the Scottish people, to ensure that, so far as is practicable, no child or young person who gives promise of ability shall be debarred, by reason of difficulty of access, or want of means, from full opportunity for the development of his faculties by attendance at secondary schools or universities.

To accomplish these objects certain subsidiary changes seem to me to be imperative. I shall mention three. In the first place I think it has been long recognised that burgh and parochial school boards provide an inadequate basis for the satis- factory organisation of secondary education. They form a still more inadequate basis for the organisation of a series of continuation classes such as this Bill contemplates. It is therefore proposed that the unit of educational organisation should be a wider one, corresponding generally with the county, or, in certain cases, a combination of counties. This arrangement will, I think, go far to solve the difficulties which have arisen in the way of educational development by reason of the inequality of rating between neighbouring small districts. What, then, in these circumstances, should be the nature of a new education authority? Should it be an ad hoc authority, that is to say, an authority expressly constituted for education alone, or should it be the general local authority dealing with education as one of its functions through a specially constituted educational committee, containing an infusion of persons of experience in education, and interested in education? I propose, after much thought, to adopt the latter alternative. The Bill, therefore, provides that the local education authority in the county shall be an education committee nominated by the county council, which for the purpose will be enlarged so as to include more burghal representation. I do not suggest that this will be a final arrangement.

I wish my hon. Friend would hear me out, and read the Bill before he criticises. I do not suggest that this will be a final arrangement. I can picture a time when the essential identity of interest between the burghal and landward elements in a county will be recognised by the erection of a county body more widely representative than the present county councils are of all areas, classes, and interests within the county—a body to which would be entrusted the administration of those aspects of the problems affecting the public health, Poor Law, housing and occupation of land, which call for wider and more effective treatment than existing divisions of local government areas permit. For the present the proposals of the Bill are a step—it may be a temporary step—in that direction. I would merely add now that in order to safeguard local interests I have thought it right to provide that, while maintaining uniformity of rating for the whole area, there shall be a large devolution of power of management from the principal local authority, that is the county authority, to subordinate authorities for each district of the county, and ultimately to school committees for each individual school. Under the arrangements which are proposed, strong local authorities for wider areas will, I hope, possess greater freedom of action and more power of initiative than it was possible to confer upon smaller bodies.

In the second place, the principle on which State aid should be given to local authorities towards their expenditure on education must be determined. The general principle I have in view is that the aid given should be proportionate to the expenditure incurred, a higher proportion, however, being given to those districts where the expense of making a reasonable provision for education imposes a disproportionately heavy burden upon the locality. The basis of the Grants will be the expenditure necessarily incurred in giving effect to the approved scheme of education submitted by the local authority for the district to the Department. This step involves the complete abolition of the present system of Code Grants, which are, I think, unsatisfactory, cumbrous, and, indeed, obsolete. The equivalent of the Grants for the year 1914, which is taken as the standard year, will be placed in the Education (Scotland) Fund, which will be further augmented by eleven-eightieths of any increase of the Votes for education in England and Wales beyond the expenditure incurred in the standard year. All Grants in future will thus be made from the Education Fund and from the Education Fund alone.

Thirdly, the problem of denominational schools, and in particular, Roman Catholic schools, must be dealt with. Under the existing law these schools are subject to no form of local control. On the other hand, there can be no doubt that because of the inadequate resources of the managers, Catholic children, who constitute upwards of one-eighth of the school population in Scotland, are to-day deprived of the opportunities of education which are afforded by the public schools. There are two possible solutions of the problem. The one is that State aid to denominational schools should be provided in much fuller measure than to public schools—to an extent, in fact, which would compensate them for what they lose in rate aid. This solution, having regard to public opinion in Scotland, I regard as inadmissible. There remains the other solution, namely, that denominational schools providing elementary education should be compulsorily transferred to the local educational authority, and should be managed by them in all respects as public schools, subject always to this, that provision will be made for religious instruction, according to the views of the former managers, being given by qualified teachers who are acceptable to representatives of these managers both as regards faith and character. This is the solution which I propose.

My hon. Friend, when he has seen the Bill, will see precisely how I intend to carry it out. I may add that this solution is not inconsistent with the existing law as to the provision of education in Scotland. We have no equivalent of the Cowper-Temple Clause. Each school board has power to-day to give denominational education in its schools, and there are boards who, n point of fact, under the existing law, do provide denominational instruction of different types in their schools, to suit the requirements of different sections of the population. I hope, under the Bill, to secure for all classes of children in Scotland, whatever the religions belief of their parents may be, their natural birthright of equality of educational opportunity.

Finally, I am satisfied that there is a large volume of opinion in Scotland which favours the setting up of a body representative of universities, local authorities, teachers, and other classes of persons specially interested in education, as a forum for the discussion of educational questions. After much consideration, I have thought it proper to give effect to this view by providing in the Bill for the constitution of an advisory council. The council is designed to assist the Minister and the Department in framing educational proposals. It is not my intention that it should in any way interfere with the direct responsibility of the Minister to Parliament, and I do not think it will have that effect. Nor will it prevent direct access to him with regard to educa- tional questions by local authorities, or, indeed, by any section of the community. Such, in brief, and, I fear, necessarily imperfect outline, are the provisions of the Bill which I have the honour to ask leave to present. Their design is, and their effect will, I hope, be—if I dare say it with the President of the Board of Education sitting by my side, and with English, Irish, and Welsh Members sitting round me—not, indeed, to secure, but to retain for Scotland the premier position in the world of education which she has always occupied. There may be a difference of view with regard to certain of these provisions, but all my Scottish colleagues, I know, urgently desire to have an Education Bill for Scotland, and the time is propitious for attaining that desire.

Let us, therefore, cooperate in securing a Bill which will be worthy of Scottish traditions in the past—

My hon. Friend will have a full opportunity of discussing that on a future occasion.

Let us co-operate in securing a Bill which will be worthy of Scottish traditions in the past, and commensurate with the needs of Scotland in the future.

On a point of Order, Sir. Is it not necessary that any other speaker who is allowed to address the House on the Bill should oppose it?

I think the rule limits the opportunity of making a statement at this stage to any Member who is opposed to the Bill.

Leave granted. Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Munro, Mr. Clyde, and Mr. T. B. Morison.

EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL,—"to make further provision with respect to Education in Scotland, and for purposes connected therewith," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time To-morrow and to be printed. [Bill 115.]

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Enemy Aliens

I beg to move to leave out from the word "That," to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words, "This House is of opinion (1) that, on the completion of the third year of the War, a more definite policy should be adopted by the Government for the internment of alien enemies and, in particular, that no man should be allowed to remain uninterned except for definitely national as opposed to personal reasons; (2) that women and children of enemy origin should, where possible, be repatriated unless there are exceptional reasons to the contrary; (3) that the Government should forthwith introduce the promised Bill giving the Secretary of State for the Home Department power to deal with naturalisation certificates in the case of men who would otherwise be alien enemies; (4) that, in any case, when a naturalised alien enemy has been convicted of offences against the Realm power should be given to the Secretary of State for the Home Department in the said Act that such naturalisation should be reviewed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department with a view to its withdrawal; (5) that under no circumstances should any further certificates of naturalisation be issued to alien enemies during the War."

I desire to explain the genesis of this series of Resolutions. They have not sprung unaided from my own brain. They represent the work of two Committees of the Unionist party. They represent the feeling in the Unionist party both in this House and in the country that the Government has not taken the proper and most effective steps which it might have done with regard to this whole question of alien enemies. There is what is known as the Unionist Business Committee which appointed a Sub-committee many months ago to consider what should be done with regard to the question of the internment of alien enemies. That Sub-committee sat many times, and as a result of the discussions and deliberations of that body these Resolutions in their present form were drawn up. They were then submitted to the Home Secretary by a deputation in July of this year. I am bound to say he met us very fairly, but he could not agree with the Resolutions which we put before him. I came to the conclusion that there was in the matter of principle a distinct difference of opinion between himself and ourselves as to the basis upon which the whole question should be dealt with. The Resolutions were then submitted to the Unionist War Committee and were unanimously approved by that body. I feel sure therefore that my right hon. Friend will realise that I am not dealing with this matter from some personal point of view, but representing what is the opinion of, I may say, almost the whole of the Unionist party not actually members of the Government. I should like to explain why it is that we are formed to move these Resolutions in the form of an Amendment to the Consolidated Fund Bill. I would sooner have moved them on any other occasion. I tried very hard by questions to the Leader of the House to get him to give us a day, or even half a day, to discuss these Resolutions without the necessity of taking the extreme step I am now taking of moving them on the Consolidated Fund Bill. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House over and over again declined to do so. I venture to say, with the utmost respect to him, and I am sorry he is not here at the moment, that that is not quite fair to his own followers in this House. My right hon. Friend and a number of his colleagues are members of the Coalition Government, as representing the great body of Unionist opinion in the House and in the country, and when he finds, as I think he does, that the great body of Unionist opinion in the House is in sympathy with these Resolutions, it would, I think, be only fair to us to have given us a day, or even half a day, for their discussion, rather than force us to move them on the present occasion. Therefore the responsibility is not on my shoulders.

The country has for three years past desired a firmer policy with regard to the internment of alien enemies. I am not attacking or going to attack the Government in regard to the conduct of the War or to do anything of that kind. My speech will be of no help to the enemy, nor will these Resolutions if passed in any way impede the Government in the progress of the War, but they will show that there is a very strong opinion inside and outside this House which is not satisfied with the treatment of this question. Let me mention figures given by the late Home Secretary eighteen months ago. There were originally 75,000 alien enemies in this country, and of those 21,000 have been from time to time repatriated. Of the remaining 54,000—and I am speaking of eighteen months ago—32,000 were interned, leaving 22,000, of whom the late Home Secretary told us 12,000 were alien male enemies. From that number the right hon. Gentleman desired to omit, in his consideration of the question those who were friendly aliens such as Czechs, and people of other friendly nations who were technically aliens, and aged people and infirm, and those in lunatic asylums and so on. There remained at that time in the figure of the late Home Secretary 6,500 male alien enemies at large. The figures of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary are certainly no better than those. To-day there are 13,548 male alien enemies uninterned, of whom 6,820 are Germans. There are 5,609 Austrians, 38 Bulgarians, and 1,079 Turks. Many people think—I do not know why—that Austrians are friendly, but, personally, I do not think that the Austrian is one whit more friendly to this country than the German. On the right hon. Gentleman's own figures, leaving females out of the question, there are 6,820 male Germans at large to-day. There have been interned since the 1st January of this year 206 males, of whom 81 were Germans, and there have been let out for work of national importance 1,423 men, of whom nearly all—1,204—were Austrians or Hungarians, and 193 Germans. So that of the total of 6,820 Germans at large we may regard 6,700 as the actual number of Germans uninterned to-day in this country. My right hon. Friend goes on to say that there are some of those who are doing work of national importance, but the figures are not given, and in reply to a question which I put to the Minister of National Service last week he said that he was unable to give those figures without a very large amount of trouble.

Therefore we have 6,700 Germans uninterned. I should have thought myself that it was hardly necessary to make any further speech after three years of war, but to mention the fact that there was that number of uninterned Germans, in addition to Turks, Bulgarians, and Austrians, carrying on business in this country. I know that all Home Secretaries speak of the bedridden old man of seventy-five, and try to put me in a corner by asking, "Would you intern him?" Then they speak of the German who has married an English wife and has four or five sons and one or two fighting for us against the enemy and they ask, "Would you intern him?" Those are all cases which are brought forward to put myself or any other Member who raises this question in a difficulty. But I think we are entitled to brush them all away. I am quite certain that the 6,700 are not all over seventy-five, and they have not all married English wives, and they have not all sons fighting for us. It is rather a curious fact that when a German has a son fighting in the English Army that is always assumed as a guarantee of the bona fides of the Germans, and yet we know that when a naturalised German Englishman has a son fighting in the German Army that naturalised German is equally supposed to be loyal to this country. My right hon. Friend cannot have it both ways. A German who has a son fighting and who has been naturalised since the War is assumed to be loyal to this country although his son is fighting against us. I think, on the other hand, it is not quite fair to us to hold that because a German has a son fighting for us he is ipso facto loyal to this country. I would much sooner leave the question of the sons out of it altogether, and deal with the question of the Germans themselves and as to whether there is really any possibility that those 6,700 Germans may or may not become a danger to this country. I should like to found my argument on a statement made by the late Home Secretary the right hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) in June, 1916, with which, with great humility, I entirely agree. He said on that occasion: I found myself on that statement. I ask my right hon. Friend whether there may not be grave danger to this country in the possibility of harm being done by these 6,700 Germans in our midst? Of course, you may say that we cannot prove that they are all spies. I do not attempt to prove that they are spies.

That is exactly the point. It is not for us to prove that they are spies, but it is for those who desire to leave them uninterned to prove that they are loyal. Primâ facie every German ought to be interned. Every Englishman in Germany is interned. They did not wait in Germany to prove whether the Englishman was a spy or not. They locked him up in Ruhleben and treated him when there far worse than we treat them here, in the Isle of Man or elsewhere. The man who is likely to be the best spy is the man who carries on business here and who can possibly get a Cabinet Minister to vouch for his loyalty. It is not on my shoulders to prove that these men are spies. It is sufficient for me to accept what was said by the late Home Secretary, that they may be a source of danger. The Resolutions which I am moving suggest that these men should be all interned—with one great exception. We have been met on previous occasions with scorn from the Ministerial Bench because we tried to intern them all, and we have been met by these exceptions which are bound to occur amongst a large number of people. Therefore we drafted our Resolutions with great care, and asked that they should be all interned except those only who should be left uninterned for definitely national, as opposed to personal reasons. There is where, I think, the Home Office differs from the Unionist party and the great body of Members of this House. The Home Office has gone on the principle, "We will intern these men if we have no reason to suppose that there is anything wrong about them; but if there is any personal reason, or business reason—because they have a wife, or because they have children—or any reason of that kind, we will leave them uninterned."

My right hon Friend the Home Secretary—as, indeed, all Home Secretaries—has sheltered himself behind the Advisory Committee. I asked him once before, and I ask him again, whether he will give orders for the Advisory Committee to go through these cases again; not with a view to seeing whether there is a personal reason why they should be left uninterned, but to go through the cases on the basis that every German should be interned unless it is in the interest of this country that he should be left uninterned? That is the sole test that should be applied. The great body of these men—the 6,700 men, a great many of whom are carrying on business and are in perfect health—are the men who should be interned unless they are carrying on business in the interests of this country which cannot be carried on by Englishmen. I know there are a certain number of uninterned cases in which people are carrying on business in the national interests. I think if the Government would take a little pains, they would find Englishmen quite capable of doing the work that some of those Germans are now doing. I want my right hon. and learned Friend to adopt the view of the German nation, that, I take it, applies to the German nation here as it does in Germany. The Prime Minister in the speech which he and I heard on Friday night last—and I was very much struck by that speech of the Prime Minister—spoke of the German nation as "a criminal nation." He spoke of it as one convicted of "murder, arson, rape, burglary, fraud and piracy." I heard the Prime Minister say this, rising in his accents, as it seemed to me, till he hissed out those last words: "murder, arson, rape, burglary, fraud and piracy—a criminal nation!" I say to this House that if that be true of the German nation—and I accept the word of my own Prime Minister—we do not want members of that criminal nation left at large in our midst, able to carry on their trade, their businesses, to keep small fortresses in the way of trading businesses in this country for the time when the War is over. We want—I say it quite frankly—to break up the German hold on trade. I do not hesitate to say that I for one desire to use the powers of internment of these Germans in order to break up these trading centres, so that after the War they may not come back here and re-establish themselves in their particular district.

I cannot understand why my right hon. Friend has not taken a more active line in this matter, because he said most distinctly in a speech made not two months ago that he divided these men into various classes. He referred to the friendly Czechs and Alsatians. He referred to the old, the blind, the ill, and the mad—and I agree with him there. He referred to those of proved loyalty—and I agree with him there. "Proved loyal!" If he is going to put the responsibility for the loyalty on those concerned, I agree with him; but I very greatly differ from him as to the difficulty of proving these all loyal. So far as I can see, if I desired to test my right hon. Friend in this matter, and I had a son, I would not hesitate to put that boy into the Government service. It would be the very best thing I could do. The boy might be honest. He might have been brought up in an English school, or an English university. That is not quite enough to prove the loyalty of the father who, all these years, while he was trying his best to appear as an Englishman, declined to become naturalised, elected to remain as he was. My right hon. Friend, towards the conclusion of that speech said, "My rule, my definite rule, is to intern them all unless there is the very strongest reason to the contrary." [An HON. MEMBER: "Hear, hear!"] I agree with him there. I suggest to him that the strongest reason has been allowed to be a personal reason, in the interests of the people themselves, rather than an absolutely convincing reason in the interests of our own nation and of our own country.

Quite frankly, we desire now by these means to get rid of them during the War, so that they will not be able to stop here after the War. In addition to these men I have spoken about, there are 10,000 or 14,000 women—and incidentally, may I remark, that we are told that the German who has an English wife is the better case! I wish my right hon. Friend could see the letters I have received from time to time from English wives tied to Germans who hate the bonds by which they are tied; many of them strongly object, and would very gladly, if they could, escape from their bondage. We are told that this is a guarantee of respectability and loyalty on the part of the German in this country! I am not going to weary the House with many of these cases. I told my right hon. and learned Friend of one of these cases a few weeks ago, a gentleman of the name of Dumreicher Bey. He is unnaturalised. We think he is loyal. He served in the Egyptian Service for many years; but that was when the Egyptian Service was cosmopolitan—before we took over the Protectorate. There was another man who served in the Egyptian Service of much higher rank than this Bey. He is either fighting us or working against us now in Austria. I should like my right hon. Friend to furnish us with information as to who has been interned and let out again. I cannot quite understand whether letting a man out of internment increases his love for this country or not. He is living at Fareham, close to Aldershot. I suppose the military are satisfied, but I should like my right hon. Friend to inquire whether this man was in service in Italy, whether he spent his vacations in Germany, and what he did when he was there?

There is another case. That of a German, named Wiskemann. I asked a question about his carrying on business in London. It is a German business. It was a German business before the War, and up till last month he had two telephones, one in his business and one in his private house. Since I asked the question I think the telephones have been taken away. I was told—quite rightly—that he had married an English wife, and had an English-born son. Is that son serving in the English Army? He is of military age. I know something of this family, and of the wife's family. What a difference! Included in the wife's family relations are four young men. This German has one son. Of the four English cousins two of them have died for their country, and two of them are still serving. Where is the German son? He is our Vice-Consul in Russia to-day. This son of an unnaturalised German is to-day, and has been throughout this War, instead of serving in our Army, allowed to go to Riga, close to the German border. When Riga became uncomfortable for this English-German to stay in he went on to Archangel as our English Vice-Consul. He may be loyal. I do not say the opposite. Nobody can tell. Sir George Buchanan, our Ambassador in Pretrograd, says that he believes him to be loyal. I dare say he does. He may be loyal. But it is surely the grossest stupidity and folly to send a German-born Englishman, however loyal he may be by birth, by training, or by education, right to the borders of Germany and Russia at the present time! If he is loyal let him join our Army, and run the same risks as his cousins in fighting for his country.

The last one I will mention is that of another German, named Schmidt. He was naturalised in 1909. It took me a long time to get him interned. He was interned, though naturalised, because, under Section 14 ( b ) of the Defence of the Realm Regulations he was dangerous. He kept a sausage establishment and restaurant in Charlotte Street. The evidence put before the House, and the Home Secretary was that it was the hostile meeting place of about forty Germans. Their language was treasonable and was such that no decent Englishman or Frenchman practically could live in the room. One of their amusements—because many of them were munition workers—was to pin up their munition badge on the wall—in this naturalised German's sausage establishment—and see who could spit at it best. Because of his associations with these treacherous Germans the man was interned. A few weeks ago he was let out. On inquiry as to what was the reason I was informed that the man, whom it was necessary to intern under Regulation 14 ( b ) was let out because it appeared that the aliens who frequented his establishment had been interned, or dispersed, and that his wife was ill; that they therefore thought he might be let out. The Government had convincing evidence that this establishment had been utilised as a centre of German alien hostile traitorism. If they thought it necessary to intern the man and to break up the gang of miscreants who frequented his establishment, at least, I think, they might have kept him in until the end of the War.

The remainder of this Resolution is perhaps of a less important character. We ask that the wives and children should, where possible, be repatriated. We do not want them. The country does not want them. We do not ask that they should be interned. We, however, specially exempt the English-born wife from this Resolution. Only German-born wives and German-born children are, if possible, we suggest, to be repatriated that the country may be rid of them; so that when the husband comes out of internment, instead of going back here he can go back home to his own land. The last three portions of the Resolution deal with the naturalisation question. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for York will deal with that more fully than I intend to do, but I venture to sugest that at this time, after three years of war, it is desirable that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary should have power—I do not say it should of necessity be exercised to reconsider and in proper cases revoke naturalisation certificates. Take the case of the naturalised alien who has been interned under Section 14 ( b ). Take the case of this man whom I mentioned, Schmidt. There was also the well-known painter Laszlo, whom I never interfered with at all. I knew nothing about him. I do not know whether he is loyal or not. But I do know that after careful inquiry extending over many days he was represented before the Committee, and the Committee having regard to the safety of this country thought that it would be better that he should be interned. If it comes to this, that you are going to intern unnaturalised Germans for the safety of this country, and are going to leave them unnaturalised after the War to resume all the privileges of British citizenship, well, I say that that is stupidity run mad! My right hon. Friend has promised over and over again that the Bill should be brought in. We are only asking him—what shall I say?—to hurry up a little. He has once or twice lately told us of a certain difficulty in the matter of communicating with our colonies who are affected by all legislation relative to naturalisation. I am sorry, and I would not say what should not be said to hurt the dignity of our colonies. Certainly not! But this is a matter which affects ourselves, and our own home, and if the colonies, after all these months have not had time to answer the telegrams and letters, which, I am sure, have been sent to them by my right hon. and learned Friend, then I say we are at liberty to pass an Act of Parliament here relating to this country, only leaving the colonial side of it alone, giving the right hon. and learned Gentleman power, in proper cases, to consider whether these naturalisation certificates ought not to be revoked and whether the privileges of English citizenship ought not to be taken away.

I do not speak of the matter in regard to any of these individual cases which I have mentioned. I do not really found myself upon them. I found my plea to the House this afternoon upon the main general question that the alien enemy has no right to be at large in this country except for this country's benefit. That is the rule in Germany. That ought to be the rule here. I go back again to the Prime Minister's speech the other night and say: they are not a nation we want to associate with. They are not a nation that we want to be friends with either now or after the War. They are not a nation that we want to treat with either now or after the War. In fact, I would put it in the words of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Clapham, who the other day very rightly asked, "Would you grasp their bloody hands?" Do we want to shake the hand of blood either now or after the War? That is what it comes to compelling honest English people in their homes, in their business, in their banquets, in their workshops, cheek by jowl to sit with these when the War is over, by the side of the members of this criminal nation! I have appealed to various Home Secretaries with regard to their repatriation after the War, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland told me, eighteen months ago, that the Government considered it would be rather premature to say now what course ought to be adopted after the War, so far as these people were concerned, and he added that what was suggested was not at all the consummation present to his mind. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to amplify that very important statement, but he said he could not. After that various questions were asked, and one was addressed to the late Prime Minister (Mr. Asquith), who replied that the question was under consideration. But it has been under consideration for eighteen months, and surely. we are entitled to know now, in the fourth year of the War, what the Government is going to do, and what are their proposals with regard to the getting rid of this mass of 30,000 Germans who are interned and 6,000 who are not. We want to get rid of them on the broad basis that we cannot associate with them any longer, because they are members of a nation who have not divested themselves of their German nationality, and who came here definitely as outposts of German trade and German nationality, and with no honest or eager desire to become members of the English community. It was easy enough to get naturalisation papers through before the War. We look on them as members of a criminal nation, and we desire to get rid of them at the earliest possible moment.

I rise to second the Amendment.

On the matter of the internment of alien enemies, I propose to say very little, agreeing as I do practically with all that my hon. Friend has said. But I do hope that the Home Secretary will take this opportunity of laying down, in the clearest terms, the principle enunciated by my hon. Friend, namely, that every alien enemy after this shall be interned unless the Home Secretary is satisfied that it is in the national interest he shall be kept out. That is a broad principle, and I submit it is essential in this matter to lay down principles on which successive Home Secretaries may Act. I shall be very glad to hear that my right hon. Friend adopts that very intelligent view. What I propose now to do is to refer to this question of the promise given by the Government some time ago to bring in a Bill to enable the Home Secretary in proper cases to cancel the certificate of naturalisation granted to men who otherwise would be our alien enemies. There has been very long delay in dealing with this question. The necessity of this action has been admitted, but still delay has occurred. At the present time the Home Secretary has power to cancel certificates of naturalisation in two cases—in cases where there has been fraud and in cases where there has been false representation in obtaining them. But those are very narrow grounds, and as a matter of fact I do not think there has been a single case in which the power has been exercised. Whether that be so or not it has been definitely admitted that further powers are necessary, and my object is to enforce that necessity so far as I can, and to urge that there be no further delay in carrying out the promise.

The object of giving these powers to the Home Secretary is very plain; it is to strengthen the hands of the Executive and to enable it in proper cases to treat these naturalised Germans and Austrians as being, as in many cases I am afraid they still are, notwithstanding their naturalisation, enemy aliens, and to intern them accordingly. I am not here to suggest for one moment that a German by origin who it may be was naturalised years before the War, who has made his home in this country and all of whose sympathies are with this country, cannot be a loyal British citizen. No doubt there are many who are, but it is common knowledge that in a large number of cases, both before and after the War, Germans obtained naturalisation certificates not because they desired to be loyal British citizens but because from financial or commercial reasons, or even in some cases some more sinister motive, they desired the protection and shield of the British citizen. I should like to quote some words uttered in this House by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel) —at the time Home Secretary—on the 29th June, 1916. The right hon. Gentleman said: France more clearly realised that it was necessary and passed an Act enabling its executive authority in proper cases to cancel certificates of naturalisation. In June, 1915, a new ruler came to the Home Office, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), and he, seeing the danger we were in, introduced a partial remedy. He made a new Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act, which is known as Regulation 14 B, and which gave the Home Secretary power, subject to certain very severe restrictions, to cancel certificates of naturalisation when there was hostile origin or hostile associations on the part of the person who was being dealt with.

I apologise. I should have said the Regulation enabled these people to be interned. I wish the power had been to cancel their certificates. As I have indicated, it was subject to very severe restrictions. These I need not go into now; suffice it to say the power was useful, and that it has been used in several cases. But it is not sufficient. What we want is power to cancel their certificates. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, so long ago as the 5th March, 1917, realised that the power was not sufficient, and indicated that the Government would make further proposals on the subject. But the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that they would have to be first submitted to the Imperial Conference. The Imperial Conference has met and has, I believe, considered the question of naturalisation, and the Dominions have been consulted as to the drafting of the Bill. The Home Secretary told us on the 10th November last that the Bill had actually been prepared and sent out to the Dominions to be considered. I am not sure I understand why it is necessary for the Dominions to consider it, seeing that we are simply taking power to revoke certificates which our own Government has granted. It is quite true that these certificates extend all over the British Empire, but I should have thought it was a matter we could deal with. Still, I agree that if the Dominions can give us their views quickly there can be no harm in having them. But nothing has yet been done, and I venture to urge that there should be no further delay in this matter. Do not let it be supposed that I am making any attack upon the present Home Secretary. I know that he has not the slightest desire to shelter these men. But does he appreciate the urgency of the case? He told us on the 1st November last that there had only been a few Germans naturalised during the War. That is not quite a correct rendering of the figures. There have been no fewer than 190 German-Austrian alien enemies naturalised since the War.

Do not those figures include British-born widows?

5.0 P.M.

I think not. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean widows of deceased Germans or Austrians who have been renaturalised? If so, the figures do not include them. They refer solely to German-Austrian alien enemies naturalised since the War. These figures were given by the late Home Secretary in answer to me on the 27th April, 191 column 570 of the OFFICIAL REPORT. In the first five months after the War there were ninety-seven Germans naturalised; that is, from August, 1914, to December, 1914; and there were thirty Austrians naturalised during these same five months, making 127. Those are the figures for the first five months of the War, and if you take the whole period from the beginning of the War down to November, 1916, you will find that there were 146 Germans naturalised in that time, and forty-four Austrians. You will find these figures in an answer which was given in this House on the 4th July, 1917, at column 1128, of the OFFICIAL REPORT. I say that for 190 Germans and Austrians to have been naturalised during this War, and that of those to have had 127 naturalised in the first five months of the War, represents figures for which at any rate I have had no justification whatsoever. It is all the more remarkable because the rate of naturalisation of these Germans and Austrians for the five months after the War was only a trifle less than the rate of naturalisation during the seven years and a-half before the War. I have given these figures as showing the urgency of this question. The late Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for North Monmouthshire, admitted on the 17th of May, 1915, that powerful influence had been brought to bear to obtain these certificates. [HON. MEMBERS "Hear, hear!"] That is his language. He took credit, indeed, for having resisted to a certain extent that pressure, but his powers of resistance were not very forcible when he was able to naturalise 127 Germans and Austrians in the first five months of the War.

I venture to submit that all these certificates of naturalisation which have been granted since the War should be at once reviewed and power given to cancel them in proper cases. I do not think that power should be confined to what happened after the War, because if you look at the seven years and a-half for which I have the figures of Germans and Austrians naturalised before the War you will find that there were no less than 3,000 Germans and Austrians naturalised in this country in those seven and a-half years. Do none of those 3,000 cases require review? Are we to suppose that the whole of these 3,000 cases—men of whom the late Home Secretary said that they are a dangerous influence—are loyal British citizens giving their help to the prosecution of the War, and scorning the idea of helping their native country, Germany? I should like to give the Home Secretary power to look into that matter, and to see how far that supposition may be correct. May I say, just in illustration of what I have remarked about these gentlemen who are naturalised, that there was a remarkable case which has come recently into the public mind? It is not, perhaps, the most glaring case that has occurred of naturalisation since the War, but it is a remarkable one—it is the case of the painter Laszlo. That case, very shortly, is this: Laszlo was a Hungarian subject. He resided in this country for a considerable time—I do not know how many years—before the War. Apparently it never occurred to him to apply for naturalisation until the 28th of July, 1914, seven days before the War—a somewhat significant date. He made his application, and the reasons why he applied were at least as remarkable as the date of his application. The Home Secretary told me. in answer to a question on the 1st of November of this year, col. 1,606 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, that

As my hon. Friend says, I hope that this is only a formality, and that the Home Secretary will disregard that somewhat singular recommendation. That is an illustration of what happened in one case, at any rate, of naturalisation applied for immediately before and granted immediately after the War. His case has been dealt with under Regulation 14 B of the Defence of the Realm Act. That is an exceedingly cumbrous procedure, as I venture to think. In many cases it is exceedingly difficult to apply, and I ask the Government to do what, in effect, I understand they have already decided to do: to adopt the simpler, more definite, and more effective method of taking power to cancel the certificate of naturalisation, in which case the man will then be interned naturally without any further trouble. May I quote again the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Cleveland, who, if I may say so, made an admirable speech on this point, but at a somewhat late date? He said on the 14th of February, 1917, OFFICIAL REPORT, column 716, that was after he had left the Home Office:

"The powers possessed by the Secretary of State are not really adequate to remove from British citizenship individuals who are clearly showing that they are holding allegiance as a mere formality, and that their heart is not with the country whose citizenship they have, for financial reasons, assumed."

I think that is an admirable sentiment and utterance on the part of the late Home Secretary. I only wish that he had expressed it during his period of office as Home Secretary, in which case he might have given effect to it then. Be that as it may, the Government have resolved on this course. After long delay, they are satisfied as to the necessity of it, and the House will support them in carrying it out. I beg of them to lose no further time in carrying out what the execuive have long wanted, namely, this power of dealing with these men, who never ought to have been granted the privilege of British citizenship at all, and to deal with them in a manner which is more satisfactory and effectual. I therefore beg to ask the Home Secretary if he will pay attention to Clauses Nos. 3 and 4 of this Resolution, and carry into effect what is really a long overdue reform.

When I came down this afternoon I had no idea whatever of venturing to intrude any remarks of mine on the attention of the House, and after the exhaustive speeches of my hon. Friends who moved and seconded this Resolution, what I desire to say is of a quite general character. I have no desire adversely to criticise any party or anybody; but I think it is the duty of every citizen, and certainly of every Member of Parliament, however humble his position may be on the Back Benches, to try and keep in front of himself and his own conscience the position in which this matter stands to-day. This terrific struggle deepens and darkens; we see the gigantic issues standing nakedly and unabashed in front of us; and we must realise this fact, that we cannot all be in the fighting line. Most of the Members of this House are too old to go over the top, but let us remember the words of the great poet

May we look back just a few brief minutes at the action of successive Home Secretaries in this matter? So great was the danger from enemy aliens in our midst that as long ago as October, 1914, I ventured to write to the then Prime Minister, and point out how serious a matter it was. He sent out through his then secretary the courteous reply that either he personally or his secretary would give attention to anybody, however undistinguished a Member of Parliament, and said that the matter was well in hand. It was not. I do not want to blame anyone, but at the beginning of the War it was out of hand. There might be excuses for it, no doubt. We were suddenly thrown into the most terrific war the nation, or, indeed, the human race, had ever known, and we had none of the mechanism for dealing with the many thousands of enemy aliens in our midst. There was some excuse there. There was hardly enough barbed wire, I should think, for Alexandra Palace and the Isle of Man, and so thousands and thousands of dangerous enemy aliens were allowed to remain in our midst undisturbed, because physically we had not the means of coping with the difficulty, and also because we were too tender-hearted. We thought in those days—perhaps there was some excuse for it—that the hand we had been accustomed to shake for all the years ought to be shaken still wherever it was not on the face of it a hostile hand. So, partly because we could not deal with the matter, and partly because we did not want to deal with the matter, it was allowed to drift, and then, as the terrible days grew on, it was found necessary for the primary reason of safety to draw the cordon tighter and tighter. As one Home Secretary has succeeded another, I agree it has been drawn tighter and tighter. It passed first of all from the regime of the right hon. Gentleman for North Monmouth (Mr. McKenna) to the right hon. and gallant Member for Walthamstow (Sir J. Simon), then to the right hon. Member for Cleveland (Mr. H. Samuel), and lastly it passed to my right hon. and learned Friend the present Home Secretary, and I agree that the control has stiffened as we pass from the rule of one right hon. Gentleman to that of another; but all through—and I say this without any arrière pensée —I have seen some tenderness for which I have not been able to account—that is, the tenderness, not of any of those right hon. Gentlemen, in my opinion, but of the permanent Department of which they have been the distinguished heads. Here I speak as an old servant in the City, for many years Registrar of the Privy Council, and I was able to see what every Civil servant knows, that it is not the distinguished heads, who come and go, but it is the permanent machinery of the Home Office, and the question is whether there is some cog in their wheel which ought to be turning much more freely in the interests of our country in the matter of the internment of these enemy aliens.

The answers which the right hon. Gentleman gives seem to me very often to be answers of the permanent Department, and not of the head. The voice is not the real voice of the Minister. To put it in another way: it is the hand of Esau, but the voice is the voice of Jacob. If that is so, the Home Office ought to be purged in this matter. We ought not to take any risks any longer at any rate—not a risk of any kind. This is an out-and-out fight for existence. If we neglect any precaution whatever, then neither our consciences nor the country will forgive us. The present Home Secretary, who has never failed to be frank and candid with the House in this matter, has never quite satisfied me that everything is being done that ought to be done. He says, "There are so many old men, so many women, and so many children; they are powerless to do mischief even if they want to do it." But are they? We know now that one of the most important parts of this terrific struggle is written, spoken and whispered propaganda, and all the German women who are now at large, if they cannot fight, cannot they use propaganda? Cannot the old men use propaganda? [An HON. MEMBER: "And money, too!"] Yes, as my hon. Friend says, "And money, too." On the nights of raids, when masses of men, women, and children are collected together in the Tubes, one hears, as I have been told by special constables who are at work in the Tubes, people with an unmistakable German accent saying, "Is this not terrible? Is this War not awful, that the civil population should be exposed to this? Ought we not to bring it to an end by every means in our power?" thus sowing among the tens of thousands of people who fly for refuge to the Tubes the seeds of peace-at-any-price, because that is what it amounts to. Then in the matter of food, the queues for which are becoming longer and longer every day, only last week people with an unmistakable foreign accent in the queues said, "Is not this scandalous; the rich are getting what they like, whereas the poor people cannot get anything?" What is the innuendo? It is propaganda to set the rich against the poor, and so that the poor may say, "It is no good to go on fighting any longer." Cannot the women aliens at large be used as instruments for distributing money here and there, and serving the German propaganda? Of course they can. Why, in many cases the woman is much more dangerous than the man.

We cannot afford to take risks of any kind. We now know that this War is entirely different essentially from the old wars. Now the whole nation is at war. While the Germans are fighting by every means in their power, on their fronts, behind the fronts, in all the countries of the world, we are still neglecting to take obvious precautions which, on the face of it, we ought to take. I remember when the Home Secretary was pointing out that the people who remained at large were, at any rate, on the face of them, loyal, I asked, "Can you answer for their loyalty?" Of course it was obvious he had to say he could not. The onus hitherto has been to presume the enemy alien is innocent unless he is proved guilty. Surely at this time of day, after this awful War has been going on for three and a half years, the onus must be in the contrary direction, and you ought to assume he or she is guilty unless he or she proves innocence. I was talking to an eminent doctor only this morning—the conversation arose quite by chance—and he was saying that he had attended the Great Central Hotel in the days when it was a hospital for convales- cent officers, and that he found it chock full of Germans. He said, "Of course, now it has been changed; it is a British hospital." I mention this partly because I remember asking my right hon. and learned Friend a question about a Swiss gentleman—I forget his name—who is now the manager of the hotel. I asked whether the Swiss gentleman was known to be loyal to this country, and the answer was, "Yes." I asked whether any of the German staff who had been there were still there. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to answer in the negative. Still, it was terrible news to me, if true—and the doctor thought it was true—that at any time since the commencement of this War that huge building, which was used as a convalescent home for British officers, should have been—to use the doctor's expression—chock full of Germans. It was an appalling thought.

Will the right hon. Gentleman get rid of all fog and mist and prejudice and hindrances in this matter and speed up. We cannot afford to give away any point or even a card in the game. There are fifty-two cards in the pack and we shall want all the fifty-two to win this War. We should be traitors to our cause, to ourselves, and to our own consciences if we omitted to take in the House of Commons any precautions which we ought to take. Do not assume that the interned German woman is innocent, or that the interned aged German aliens in our midst are innocent. Do not assume anybody is innocent. I have asked questions about the air service, and about allowing these people to be close to our aerodromes and anywhere near our sea ports or any dangerous area, and I have never had a satisfactory reply. I do not want to offend the Home Secretary by saying he has given shilly-shallying or giving evasive replies, because he is the last man in the House of whom I should like to say that, but I do say that there has not been a complete and satisfactory reply, and we have had rather Departmental and evasive answers.

I remember in the case of one serious air raid, when I asked about enemy aliens doing their work close to an aerodrome, I got a very evasive reply. It was so evasive that it turned out that I was right and the Under-Secretary of State for War was wrong. It is not too late to speed up, and you have got to do it, whether it be the Under-Secretary or the Secretary of State for War. It does not matter whether it is with regard to enemy aliens in our midst or naturalised Germans or Austrians who ought never to have been naturalised. We had better set our house in order, both now and for the period of the War.

I cannot say that I approve entirely of the terms of the Resolution which have been proposed by my hon. Friend because I do not think it goes far enough. Speaking for those who agree with me we feel that the proposals on this subject are not sufficiently drastic to meet the present circumstances. Nevertheless I am going to support my hon. Friend for the simple reason that he goes a long way in the right direction. The subject has been raised of the answers which the Home Secretary has given to certain questions in which he laid great stress upon the fact that you could not intern all these friendly enemy aliens. It is true there may be Czechs and Alsatians who are, to a great degree, friendly to our cause, and who may be whole-hearted in our cause, but it does not necessarily follow because a man is a Czech or an Alsatian that he is not hostile to our cause, and therefore it seems to me that this is in no way a final argument. If we are to have the benefit of the doubt then it ought to be given on the side of safety and not on the side of national peril. That is the view I take, and to advance opposition to the kind of proposal put forward by my hon. Friend because there are a large number of so-called friendly aliens in our midst is really futile, because that is no reason why such a very large number of Germans should be still at large in this country.

The right hon. Gentleman asked us would we intern a sick old woman who was an enemy alien. I have yet to learn, because a man or woman is sick or old that they cease to be unpatriotic. This is quite a false argument, and leniency should not be tolerated in the face of the circumstances we are now in. Supposing the right hon. Gentleman himself was sick, and happily he is not, and supposing he was an old lady, which happily he is not, and happened to be in Germany. Would she not be working day and night for England? Of course she would. We must look at this matter not from the point of view of chivalry, but remember that we are dealing with a nation which, whatever else they may be, are patriotic, and you cannot believe that all these leopards lurking in our midst have changed their spots. My hon. Friends and myself believe that all enemy aliens should be interned unless you can repatriate them, and they ought to be interned immediately, and we should not wait until the House meets after Christmas. A question has been asked, "How many English subjects are at present known to the Germans to be loose in Germany? Are there 21,000 British enemy aliens in Germany? Of course there are not. The Germans are at war, and they are not going to allow the smallest risk. Germany does not tolerate agents who are going around spreading just that little word which is doing all the damage. That little word is bad enough when it comes from hon. Members of this House, for they are known, but it is worse when it is spoken by those men and women who are aliens who say that this War cannot go on when they are speaking in public.

What should we think of the men in the British Army if they commenced fraternising with the enemy while the fighting was going on? What do the fighting men think when they come back to this country, and hear of the kind of answer which is given us on this subject when you are allowing 21,000 enemy aliens to be freely fraternising with the people of this country? It seems to me if we go on in this way we are simply gambling with fate. Germany wages war with treason as well as with force of arms, and we have seen this in every country in the world. Why should we imagine that this country is the only place where Germany is not employing those arts and devices, for ours is the one country where Germany wishes to concentrate all her ingenuity in order to impair our national unity? Is it not possible that some of these 13,000 enemy aliens may be giving information indirectly to the enemy and going around this country spreading rumours, or possibly endeavouring to arrange for the use of explosives. Has the Home Secretary no information that amongst the Germans interned in this country there has been an effort at propaganda? If he taxes his memory I think he will find that such efforts have been made. It is quite probable that these Germans, not only those who have been interned but those who have been naturalised as citizens of this country, are doing a very great deal of this propaganda work at the present moment. There are men always ready in this country to discredit the Government and the nation, and to slander our troops and spread rumours throughout the length and breath of the land, and those rumours could be very well spread by those who claim to be British subjects whom we know have been recently naturalised, and whose devotion to this country is of very recent birth. It is almost inconceivable that all these various statements, propaganda and rumours which are going around with such devilish subtlety are not due to men who are enemies of this country otherwise it is impossible to understand them.

These Germans go about from place to place. In my own Constituency I find a large number of people of recent British origin and of German descent who are regarded with the greatest suspicion. Manchester is swarming with these people, and you meet them in the lift of your hotel and elsewhere, and these are the men who are being treated with the nation's hospitality. We have heard the suggestion that people of influence have tried to get certain men naturalised, but I think any influence in that direction ought to be exposed and stopped. You cannot trifle with this question, and it is impossible to go for a moment longer along this course. With regard to naturalisation we have heard of men who before the War became naturalised. We hear of men who were naturalised four years before the War, but I think the least that ought to be done is that we should denaturalise every man who was, naturalised four years before the War and since the War. He may be a great financier or someone regarded as essential to some national industry, but I think we ought to risk that, because such men are a danger so long as they are loose, and they should be put into a safe place where they cannot be a danger.

May I give one instance of the way that it seems to me this question is trifled with. I asked a question with regard to a man named Hugo Werths, a German agent, trading with his brother in the diamond die business as Werths and Co. I was told by the Board of Trade that Julius Werths was interned, because he was a dangerous man, but his brother Hugo was not interned, because he was regarded as indispensable. After a little agitation, that business was forced to be sold, but Hugo Werths was allowed to bring along an Englishman to buy his business, and be continues to do business with this firm, and to conduct correspondence with France and elsewhere, although his brother is interned. This was regarded as essential for keeping up the connection, but it has since been found out that two of the greatest firms dealing in these diamond dies declare that they have never heard of the firm of Werths and they can only imagine that it is some small firm. It is impossible to understand how the Home Secretary can allow a man whose brother is interned to continue in this business because he was supposed to be indispensable, although I am told the work done by the German could be easily done by an Englishman.

May I say just one word with regard to military operations. It is extraordinarily difficult to keep military operations secret when they are carried out on the present scale. You have a very large number of men involved, and one or two of them, when they come home for a week or ten days, may be indiscreet and you may hear in the clubs and at one place or another that an offensive is going to take place. The news spreads, and quite a considerable number of people get to know. Surely it might occur to one of these 13,000 Germans loose in this country to convey these rumours to some amiable Dutchman who is travelling to Rotterdam on a cement ship and who has only to walk across the border to inform the Germans. We are playing with this matter, and one of these enemy aliens may be responsible for the loss of thousands of British lives. We cannot gamble with the question. Why are not the whole of them immediately interned and placed where there can be no further possible doubt of their being able to assist the enemy? There ought to be no half-measures. I have heard the very able speeches of the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) and of the hon. and learned Member for York (Mr. Butcher). They suggest half-measures, I imagine, because they despair of ever getting the whole measure. I submit that the country wants the whole measure. You may be able to make some exceptions with regard to friendly aliens, but every single German in this country ought to be at once interned. We ought to press that claim, and not rest satisfied until every single German who is prowling round in this country is interned. Having done that, the Government ought at once to proceed to denaturalise every man who only discovered his love of England within four years of the outbreak of war, as well as every German who has been naturalised since the beginning of the War. I should deplore nothing more than that the Government should weaken the confidence of the country. Heaven knows that they have great difficulties to face in keeping their position, and, if there is one certain way of losing the confidence of the people, it is to show half-heartedness in this matter. They must not forget that nearly every family has had its loss and that the public do not understand the subtleties and these legal phrases which are brought in to defend these poor old German women or to divide them up into sections. They are all Germans and all enemies. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will persuade his colleagues to take an entirely different line from that which they have taken in the past, to admit that it is a real danger to the lives of British soldiers and to our national cause to have one single enemy alien abroad, and to bring in a drastic reform to alter the position as I have indicated.

I too join, and join heartily, in the request to the Government to make a clean cut in this matter. We have trifled with it far too long, and successive Governments and Home Secretaries have either wilfully blinded themselves to the danger, or it may be, as my hon. Friend below me (Mr. G. Faber) said, that a "cog in the administrative wheel" prevents the Secretary of State acting. Whatever be the cause, I implore them at once to set to work to intern all subjects of those two great nations who are opposed to us at the present time. I have known instances where interned men have been actually let out of internment and allowed to trade. Yet those men have been carrying on the same practices as they did before their internment, and showing themselves, if not hostile to this country, at any rate friendly to the enemy, which is the same thing. I call to mind a firm of Turks. I have put questions to the Board of Trade and to other Departments of the State, but one gets perfectly sick and tired, and retires with a feeling of disappointment to think that there are not British Ministers, but British Civil officials, who lend themselves to protecting people whom they know, if they take a patriotic line towards the country of their birth, must be hostile and capable of doing us mischief. These Turks were doing a large business in England. They were given facilities for travelling in Ceylon and India, and they never ceased holding up this country and this country's rule in India to execration among the natives of that country. They never ceased belittling His Majesty's Government wherever they travelled in the East. They were carrying on business with Germany and taking large sums of money by way of discount for bills. They were for all that allowed to go on doing so, and this is the answer that I received on one occasion from one of the various Ministers: I brought that case to the notice of the authorities, but I have seen no disposition on their part to intern him.

I now come to another phase of the question. What is the effect of successive Governments refusing to intern these men upon our own industrial classes and our own shop-keeping classes who see these men allowed to carry on business in competition with those whose homes have been split up by their men-folk having had to go to the War? I have had, as the Home Secretary knows, many communications from my own division. Officials there have found it their duty to call my attention to a series of cases of a very grave kind. Let me give an extract from a letter from the Secretary of the Chamber of Commerce in Ealing. He writes to me that his committee have asked him to bring to the notice of the authorities a case where a German property-owner was periodically released, under escort—fancy an escort going down, at a waste of time and money—to conduct his affairs. He has leased a shop and is carrying on a barber's business. This shop is immediately opposite a man named Bailey, who has had to close his shop to join the Army. Mrs. Bailey has been living at the shop so that her husband, on his return, may reopen it. Local opinion is that it is unfair for this outsider to come in and capture the business while the man is at the front, and to come in and do it with the aid of a military escort and all the expense of it.

The name of the shopkeeper concerned is Bailey. There are other cases which have already been brought before the Home Secretary. There was the case of a poor woman whose son was required to join up after many exemptions by the local tribunal. There was a German who had been befriended by this woman's husband in his lifetime and who had been taught by him the polishing trade. Would the House believe it, this German was lying in wait for the final order for this woman's son to join the Colours in order that he might come and get the whole of his business connection? The knowledge of that fact was so universal that for three successive periods of three months the tribunal gave the man exemption. Finally they could do no more. The need became so great that they had to send him into the Army, but they made their order with a strong expression of their profound dissatisfaction that the condition of things should compel them to do it. The man has gone, and the German has taken the business and is merrily carrying it on, while the poor woman has only such separation allowance as the law allows her.

The German's name is Snark or Stark. Then there were three Austrians called Perlmutter, carrying on the business of jewellers. When the case was brought to the notice of the authorities they said, "Oh, these men are Austrian Poles." We do not want any of that kind of special treatment; it is quite enough to know that they are Austrian subjects. The time has gone by when we can afford, because a man is an Austrian Pole, and because no doubt Poland since the partition between Austria and Russia, has had grievances against Austria, to suppose that every Austrian Pole is friendly to us, or is a desirable person to have in our midst. I support the suggestion that every one of them should be interned, and that the onus should be on them to show exceptional good conduct, and to enter into recognisances and give guarantees for their good behaviour. In the first day or two of the War I, like some of my hon. Friends, thought that as we could not go over the top—we have given our own, and we have lost them, and it makes us all the more determined to take no risks we can individually prevent—we would at least offer our services there and then. I offered to serve on any tribunal or Advisory Committee which might be appointed to deal with the internment of enemy aliens, being of opinion that they were going to be interned as a matter of course, and that the tribunal would be a tribunal to hear those who were entitled to be heard. My offer was politely declined. It was made again, and politely declined once more. I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman for that. They put up a Committee presided over by two very eminent judges. I suppose they did not wish to offend the susceptibilities of Germany. I suppose they thought that if these cases were considered by any other tribunal the Germans would have considered they were not getting fair play. We have yet to learn what tribunals exist in Germany to deal with the cases of British subjects who have been kept in confinement, precious few of whom have been allowed to come out until their health has been wrecked beyond recovery. I have in my hand other materials, but I will only cite one more case. I have here a letter signed by my right hon. Friend dated 25th September in reply to mine of the 30th July. I know it takes time to investigate these matters, and I do not complain of the delay. My letter was with regard to a man whose name I can give because it is a name so common that mentioning it can do no harm. It is a man with the name of Müller. The information with regard to him was that he was living with a woman who was certainly German, although my right hon. Friend assures me in his letter that she was British. This man was living with her at a boarding-house in the North of London. He occupied a position in a munition works in a northern suburb, where he had 250 hands under his control. That is a nice thing to know. The name of Müller—I think he assumed the name of Miller—was quite enough to put everybody on the qui vive . He used to meet periodically at a German restaurant in the City, and he and the woman also have been again and again overheard delivering themselves of the most violent sentiments against this country. Now look at the letter which the right hon. Gentleman wrote to me in September, after an interval of two months—

"The case of the German subject Müller, to whom your letter of the 30th July referred, has been thoroughly investigated and the facts in the possession of the Department do not bear out the statement that Müller is in any way hostile to this country. The police have no reason to suspect him or to complain of anything in his conduct. Müller has been granted a special permit by the War Office to work on munitions and I am informed that it would not be in the national interests to remove him from his present employment as long as his conduct continues satisfactory. Mrs.—who keeps the boarding house at—, where Müller lodges, is a British subject."

There the matter had to stop until last week, when I received a communication from the Home Office saying they were sure I should be glad to know that Müller had been removed. I do not know whether it went on to say in terms that Müller had disclosed his hand, but he had been removed from the position of danger in which he was placed. I am very much obliged to the Home Secretary for the information. Nobody complains of him; on the contrary, we all feel admiration, in view of the difficulty of his position, for the way he is carrying out his duties. But it is the cog in the Home Office wheel, the permanent administration of the Home Office, that we want to be cleared out so far as administration with regard to aliens is concerned. The time has come to sweep that away, and to intern all of German or Austrian origin, it may be, Turks as well, although I do not know that there are many of them to be dealt with, unless they can show to the most competent authority we can set up that they not only are, but always have been well-disposed to this country, and that, since the War commenced, their conduct has caused no kind of suspicion to rest upon them. That is the proper way to deal with this matter. While these men are allowed to go on trading and to take advantage of the disabilities of British families whose sons and fathers have to go to the War, while these men are allowed to come in and pilfer the trade from those who are endeavouring to carry it on, to support the rest of the family, it is bound to be, as it is at present, a source of trouble among industrial, artisan, and other classes in this country. Unless the Government will act, and act boldly, in this matter, they will only have themselves to blame for any mischief that is caused, as it undoubtedly will be.

Although this subject has already been twice debated this year, I do not in the least complain of its being again raised in this House. The matter is one of very great importance, and therefore I not only do not resent, but I welcome the intervention of hon. Members. Nor do I complain, in the circumstances which the hon. Member for Brentford (Mr. Joynson-Hicks) detailed to the House, that he thought it right to put down this Amendment to the Consolidated Fund Bill, but I have strong confidence that when he has heard the matter debated he is not likely to persist in endeavouring to throw out of gear the whole finances of the country in order to put this particular Amendment upon the Order Book of this House.

I said "when the hon. Member had heard the Debate." Let me, for the sake of convenience, take the hon. Member's Amendment and deal with it, not in the order in which it appears on the Paper, but rather in the inverse order, because I want to clear out of the way the observations which refer to naturalisation before I come to the matter which has taken up the main part of the time of the House, namely, the question of the internment or repatriation of aliens. As to naturalisation, the last part of the Amendment lays it down

Now let me take the next part of the hon. Member's Amendment, which lays down that Here, again, I entirely agree with the terms of the Amendment. We do need powers to review the certificates of naturalisation, not only those granted during the War, but those granted before the War—and, indeed, I would say those granted at any time before the War. We want the power to review them, not, of course, where there is no reason at all for revoking them, but where there is some specific reason for which action should be taken. In that connection I go somewhat further than the Amendment itself, although I dare say it is not intended to be exhaustive. I think power should be taken in every case where the continuance of the naturalisation is not conducive to the public good, if you have not only the element referred to in the Amendment but other conditions which give good ground for reviewing, and, if need be, for revoking, the certificate.

Yes. Supposing a naturalised alien has by some act, or by his speech, or by his words, shown himself to be disloyal to His Majesty, that is a case where the power to review ought to come in.

That was meant to come in in the third paragraph of the Amendment, giving the Home Secretary power to deal with naturalisation certificates. The fourth paragraph was meant to be mandatory if a man has been convicted.

I quite accept the hon. Member's interpretation of his Amendment. I did not understand it was to be construed in that way. Let me take another case. There are cases where a man has been naturalised, as to whom we cannot say that he actually obtained naturalisation by misrepresentation or by fraud, but who yet turns out, when the facts are all known, not to have been of good character, or of such a character as to deserve naturalisation at the date of the certificate, where there has been, perhaps, no active misrepresentation, but where there has been concealment of the facts. In a case like that I think we ought to have power to review. There are other cases, which I need not go into to-day, where I think powers should be taken, but at the same time we all recognise that a certificate of naturalisation is a formal instrument which ought to have great validity in favour of those to whom it is given. When a man is naturalised here he sometimes, though not always, loses his former nationality. If we denaturalise him without cause we may put him in the position of a man who has no nationality at all—a very serious position for anyone to be in. Therefore, although we desire that the power to deal with these cases shall be adequate to cover all proper cases, we also are anxious that it should be exercised with very great care. My hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Butcher) said that in France at one time there was a very wide power of denatur-alisation. I think, since the Act of which he spoke, the law in France has been altered, and the new French law provides that judicial inquiry shall be made before a certificate is withdrawn. I am not sure that everyone agrees with me in this, but I do not think it is desirable to require that in every case there shall be an application to a Court and a hearing by the Court of the case. I think that is asking too much. The power should, in my view, be in the Secretary of State, but I think he should be advised by a Committee with some person of judicial experience upon it. If that condition is fulfilled and the Committee goes into the facts and advises denaturalisation, I think the Secretary of State should have power to withdraw the certificate. There are important matters of detail which, I need not say, have been carefully considered, and will be carefully dealt with in the Bill. In that respect, therefore, there is no difference at all between my hon. Friend and myself.

Then they ask that the Government should forthwith introduce a Bill. Naturalisation is now an Imperial matter. Since the passage of the Act of 1914 the effect of naturalisation extends throughout the Dominions—a very important consideration to bear in mind. If we withdraw a certificate here we affect British nationality in the Dominions. Therefore, I do not think it is disputed, and I notice it was laid down by the Report of the Enemy Influence Committee, that this is an Imperial matter which ought not to be dealt with without consulting the Dominions. When this matter was debated in February I said I had no doubt that it would be brought before the Imperial Conference. It was so brought and considered by the representative of the Dominions, and they were quite prepared to fall in with our views, but desired that the details should be submitted to their Governments. Steps were at once taken by the Colonial Office to send to the Dominions the detailed proposals which the Government had in mind. If there has been delay—and I do not think one ought to say there has been delay—it has been due to the need of sending documents to the other end of the world and getting them back. I have no doubt we shall very soon get such replies as have not yet been received and be able to introduce the Bill.

I hope before the Session is over. I do not think the House can desire that after we have properly consulted the Prime Ministers of our Dominions we should, unless it becomes really necessary, proceed to legislate without having their replies. If that should become necessary one may have to come to the House for some modified form of Bill which would not offend against the views which the Dominions hold. At all events, so far as we are concerned, I entirely assent to the view put forward by the Amendment that the Government should at the earliest possible moment introduce the Bill.

Documents must, of course, go out, and, I suppose, come back, but I will try to accelerate the proceedings still further.

Will the proposed Bill deal with naturalisation generally or only with the question of cancelling certificates of naturalisation?

I do not think it is desirable to deal with the whole subject in the Bill. The main purpose of it will be to deal with denaturalisation.

No; it will be permanent. In the meantime we are not altogether helpless. I have power to intern anyone, although a British subject, on account of enemy origin or enemy associations under the well-known Regulation 14 B. The cases which would naturally be dealt with by application for denaturalisation, if the Bill had become law, are exactly the cases which I could deal with under Regulation 14 B. In other words, if you could make a case for the withdrawal of a certificate of naturalisation, you might equally make a case for internment under 14 B. Therefore, although the delay is regrettable, I do not think it really interferes with measures which are immediately necessary for the national safety, although at the same time I agree that it is desirable to pass the measure. There again we are in agreement with the Amendment. Reference has been made to the case of Mr. Laszlo, which I have often dealt with in the House, and I do not know that I need deal with it again. The Committee recommended internment, but in the same Report recommended that they should be allowed to reconsider the case after the expiration of a period of, I think, two months. I was greatly assisted by the Committee in all the work under this Regulation, and when they asked that they should have power to reconsider the case, I thought it only right to accede to their request. Of course, the decision rests with me. It is the Secretary of State who will have to take the final decision.

I have answered that once or twice and I do not think it would be right to make a further statement. May I refer to the question of repatriation after the War? It has been carefully considered by a Committee dealing with that part of the problem of reconstruction which is concerned with aliens. Their Report has been made. Their opinion is in the hands of the Government, which is ready to deal with the matter the moment the necessity arises. That being so, in this field of Reconstruction, as in others, it would be an error to bring our policy before the House before the time arrives. If we stated to-day what we are going to do at the end of the War, that question and others would be discussed and rediscussed while the War is going on, and possibly as part of the negotiations for peace. We do not desire that to happen. We have our weapons ready and our plans matured in this and many other respects, but I think that on consideration it will be admitted that we should not debate these matters at a time when the War is still going on. So much for naturalisation.

I now come to the question of the internment or repatriation of aliens. Here I have been anxious to give my hon. Friend all the figures which he requires, and he has exact particulars up to date relating to that question. Of course we have a difficult problem to deal with in this alien question. I suppose British subjects in Germany were no more than a fraction of the German and Austrian subjects here. This country has been for generations past the refuge of people from other nations who, for some reason or other, desired or were obliged to leave their country. We also opened our gates, rightly or wrongly, to foreign traders, with the result that they have come here in very large numbers indeed. There were a great many persons who on the outbreak of war became alien enemies of this country. Some of them, of course, got away, some of them have been repatriated, either because they were over military age or were women or children, or for some other reason, and a great many—over 30,000, if I remember rightly—are in internment camps. And those to whom this Debate refers are only the residue. They are what is left of this large army of foreigners after those steps have been taken. In the figures which my hon. Friend gave of those who are still uninterned are included not only the men of friendly race to whom he referred, but also men who have been licensed for work of national importance—that is, men who have been at one time interned, but, under the scheme of the Board of Agriculture, or for some other reason, have been allowed out on licence to work upon the land or to do other necessary work. That applies more to Austrians than to Germans, although there are some Germans included in the number. The number includes also men who are over military age and who have been exempted for special reasons. The question is what is to be done with these people? The number is, I agree, large. Are they all to be interned, or sent home, or what? In considering this question, let us get rid of what seem to me to be points of no real value. First, there is the question of danger in case of invasion. I want to say quite clearly that in case of a threatened invasion an entirely different state of things would arise. I need hardly say that that point has been considered and nothing that I say now as regards these uninterned aliens would apply for a moment in case of an invasion being threatened.

At once. Reference has been made to the question of spies. I have said in this House, and I hold the view very strongly, that the persons who are the most unlikely to be spies are these exempted aliens. They are confined to a certain place; they cannot go beyond a certain distance; their movements are watched; their correspondence is watched, in fact the worst man whom the German Government could select for the purpose of spying would be one of these uninterned aliens. The really dangerous persons are not the uninterned alien enemies but certain persons of neutral race. It is from those classes that spies are nearly always found. There were, as is happens, a few Germans or persons of enemy origin who were charged with spying in the first few weeks of the War, but it was found so practically impossible for a full-blooded German or Austrian to act as a spy that since that time no such case, so far as I know, has occurred. The persons who have been charged with spying, and the persons convicted of spying belonged to neutral countries. Let me cite a few cases—inhabitants of the United States, of Holland, Sweden, Norway, Uruguay, Brazil, Peru, Spain and even of Belgium. It is from natives of countries of that kind who, because they are perhaps less open to suspicion here, are most readily used by the enemy for the purpose of spying. Therefore, I say this, not for the purpose of refuting any arguments which have been held to-day but for the purpose of reassuring some persons not well acquainted with the facts who expect to find spies among those uninterned aliens.

Nor do I think that we ought to have regard in this matter to what I might call the business aspect. There are people I know who say, "Intern all Germans and Austrians, otherwise they are taking business from our people." With all due respect to that argument, it is not for that purpose that the power of internment has been given. I cannot be accused of being unduly friendly to the German trader in this country, because I piloted through the House, and I think I helped to frame the Bill, under which German businesses are being rapidly closed down. But I do not think it would be right simply because a man is carrying on a German business that we should put an end to his activities by interning him. Now I come to the real point of this matter, upon which I believe there is no real difference between us, and that is the question of the safety of the realm. The power to intern is given in order to ensure the safety of the realm, and everything which is required in order to ensure the safety of the realm ought to be done without the least regard to the feelings of any individual. Many of my hon. Friends have wrongly stated the rules upon which the present Government, and the previous Governments, have acted. It is not a fact that we assume innocence and take the burden of proving disloyalty, or some other qualification, for internment. We take exactly the opposite view. Primâ facie an alien enemy ought to be interned. That has always been my view, and I believe that was the view of my right hon. Friend (Mr. H. Samuel) when he was Home Secretary. If that alien enemy asks for an exemption from internment he must make out a case for it. He must prove that he is to be trusted, that he is well vouched for, and that he can safely be left at liberty in the interests of the realm. I want to put it as clearly and as strongly as I can that in no case do we assume the burden of proving something against an alien enemy. We always assume that he is a person to be interned, and if he claims exemption then he must make out his case. We not only ask for an exceptional case to be made out, but we ask for guarantees to be given of loyalty—perhaps loyalty is not the word, but guarantees of the absence of any possibility of the man doing injury to this country. We require both conditions to be satisfied. In dealing with these cases I think I have been not only firm but many times very, very hard.

I realise that at the Home Office one must sometimes be very hard when the occasion demands. In dealing with the cases that have arisen I have not sanctioned exemption from internment except in cases where not one of my hon. Friends who have spoken to-day would have refused to take the same course. It is true that the bulk of the work was done in 1915, long before I came into office, but a point arises sometimes to-day whether a man who has been exempted must even now be shut up. In these cases the rules which I have explained apply and they are applied with the thoroughness I have indicated. Now we come to the cases in which exemption has been admitted. Take first the alien enemies of friendly race. As to these, I do not know that my hon. Friends really differ from me, although I am not quite sure whether the hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch (Brigadier-General Croft) differs or not. Take the case of Alsatians, Czechs, and one or two other races.

No; but I am going to deal with that. Take the case of an Alsatian who in 1870 left Alsace and settled here, and who, owing to the generosity, if you please, of our treatment of foreigners, has been living here since, but who has not had the means to apply for naturalisation. That man is naturally, because of his wrongs, as bitter an enemy of Germany as could possibly be conceived. Add to this the fact that that man's anti-German feeling is vouched for by a committee of Alsatians formed in this country for the purpose of going into and dealing with these cases. Would my hon. and gallant Friend or anybody in this House think it wise or sensible to intern a man of that type? We not only have the fact that he is an Alsatian but we have his character looked into, vouched for, and guaranteed by those who know him and who know his country. In such a case I hold that to shut up a man like that, a friend of this country, an enemy of Germany, would be as big a folly as one could conceive. The same observation would apply to certain other cases, such as Czechs, but not all Czechs, and certain Armenians, but not all Armenians. In every case where the rule is applied we have not only proof of nationality but proof of personal friendship for this country vouched for by those who know the man best. Therefore, to that extent, the exception to the rule of universal internment must be admitted. I will leave the bedridden men out of the question to-day.

The other cases are those of Germans who have asked to be exempted upon other grounds. The Committee dealt with all these cases, and the rule which they followed was that in no case, generally speaking, would they exempt a man unless he had been thirty-five years, at least, in this country. Some have been here forty years and some fifty years or more. I think there was this further rule, that if a man had married an English wife and had lived here for thirty years his case was given favourable consideration. The result has been that, except in very special cases, all these people who have been exempted have been in this country for upwards of thirty years, and some of them for a much longer period. But the conditions do not rest there. In every case police inquiries were made, and in every case there were referees—British-born referees of substance—of whom individual inquiries were made. In many cases these people had children, and generally children who were born in this country. In many cases sons had grown up and were in our Army. I think in thousands of cases that was true. I do not know what is the general opinion of hon. Members, but it does seem to me that if you have even a German who has settled here for thirty or forty years, who has married here, and who has had children here, whose children are fighting for this country, and who possibly has lost children in the War, whose roots are here and not elsewhere, and who gives vouchers for his perfect loyalty in the sense that he promises to do nothing that, can injure the interests of this country, there is a case in which you might fairly give consideration. If I had found in any of these cases that the existing arrangement was unsafe, or that the parties had broken their undertaking, I would have reconsidered the whole matter, and, for the sake of a few who had gone wrong, I would not mind dealing with the whole of them; but I have not found that to be the case.

Can my right hon. Friend give us any idea of the proportion of the 6,000 uninterned male Germans who have got sons in the Army—is it as much as one-half?

The exemptions were given early in 1915, and in any case before the Conscription Act, and many of these cases—my hon. Friend, who is a member of the Committee, will know—probably some thousands, were not compulsorily enlisted. I agree with what my hon. Friend has said, that we are tightening the rule from year to year. At all events, we have not gone back. Early this year the whole of these cases were overhauled. I asked that special inquiry should be made in every one of these cases of exemption, and I had a separate report in every case. The inquiry was carefully made, and I was much struck by the fact that the adverse reports were very, very few. It was an inquiry into the case of every uninterned male German, and I must say that the result surprised me. The point now is whether hon. Members desire that we shall revoke en bloc the whole of the exemptions given and put every one of these aliens into internment camps. I am not struck by the particular instances given to-day, in which it was said that the system had broken down. My hon. Friend mentioned one case of a man who had commanded expeditions in Egypt while Egypt was under British influence and British protection, up to the time the War broke out. Of course, he was known to and vouched for by the military authorities, to whose opinion the highest possible respect must be given; nay more, his exemption was asked for by a member of the Enemy Influence Committee. I do not think that any higher authority can be obtained than that. He was exempted on the advice of the Advisory Committee, and nothing that he has done since would justify his internment. Whether he should be allowed to reside in a particular place is a matter not for me, but for the military authorities. I have no doubt that they are considering the matter, and will take the steps necessary in order to obtain perfect safety. In another case referred to by my hon. and learned Friend—my recollection may be wrong—but I feel sure that I made an order for internment against that very man. I am pretty sure that that is so; but I will verify the fact. I believe that in all these cases it will be found that there is an answer to the information which my hon. Friends have received and brought forward in this House. Therefore I will not deal with individual cases any further; but I wish to ask, in regard to the demand of my hon. Friend in the first part of his Motion, that no man should be allowed to remain uninterned except for definitely national as opposed to personal reasons, does he impugn the reason that I have given in the case of the friendly alien, the case of the man with the British wife and children, fighting for us? Does he include those reasons as national reasons, or only as personal reasons? If he looks upon that class of reason as a national reason, I am entirely with him; but I should not like to accept any Amendment which compelled me to shut up every one of those people. I think that we have followed, so far, a reasonable and a safe line. I know of no case where safety has been impaired by the course that has been taken, or where the system has broken down, and I should not like to promise to intern everybody who comes within the categories that are mentioned.

Do I understand my right hon. Friend to say that if I accept his version of what is a national reason—that is to say, the man who has married an English woman and has sons in the Army—he will accept the Resolution, because that would be a great improvement?

It is impossible for me to accept this Resolution because it comes as an Amendment to the Consolidated Fund Bill.

If my hon. Friend accepts the principle which I have laid down there is really nothing between us. I think I have covered all the ground of the Motion which has been brought before the House, and it is gratifying to know how small the difference is between my hon. Friends and myself.

The Debate which is taking place to-day recalls very vividly to my mind a Debate which took place in this House in the June of last year. It was opened, as was the Debate to-day, by my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford, in a speech which bears a very close resemblance to the speech which he has made on this occasion. Other Members advanced the same view in speeches which have been paralleled in the discussion this afternoon. The reply was given by the Home Secretary of that day, in a speech which I will not say is as good or as convincing as that which has been made this afternoon, but in a speech which substantially followed precisely the same lines. It was anticipated by some that, when the change of Government took place a year ago, in this matter as in many others there would be a striking change of policy, and of administrative method, and that matters which had been mismanaged in the feeble and fumbling hands of the late Government would be entirely altered with the new vigour and with the fresh point of view which were to come in with the different administration. It is somewhat gratifying to a Member of the late Government to find that his successor in office has found the facts such that he has been obliged to follow precisely the same course as was then adopted. Indeed, the only difference that I can find between the same things then and now is that my right hon. Friend, having quite properly released at the request of the Board of Agriculture a certain number of Austrians and Hungarians, skilled agriculturists, in order that they might work upon the land of this country and increase production of food, the number of alien enemies at this moment uninterned is slightly larger than the number was a year ago. As I say that is the outcome of the facts of the case which are irrefutable, and to which policy must necessarily conform.

My hon. Friends who have opened this Debate have dealt with four points: naturalisation, denaturalisation, repatriation after the War, and internment. With regard to naturalisation, the rule was laid down while I was at the Home Office that no further certificates of naturalisation were to be granted to any alien enemy, and that rule has been acted upon ever since. Of course, we have not included in that category English women who, having married Germans or Austrians, and thereby lost their British nationality, have subsequently become widows, and who seek to be readmitted to their original British nationality. Then, as now, by universal assent, those were regarded as cases that could be dealt with properly by renaturalisation. With respect to forfeiture of naturalisation, it is undoubtedly the case that our law is defective in that respect. There are numbers of instances in which persons who have gained British citizenship and have taken the oath of allegiance and loyalty to the British Crown are found not to be loyal citizens of the country. There are no powers to denaturalise such persons. There ought to be such powers, and I set up a Committee, of which I have the honour to be chairman, at the Home Office, to consider the form which legislation should take in order to effect a change of this kind. I am glad to know that that Committee has now reported, and that the necessary Bill is being prepared, and will soon be introduced.

7.0 P.M.

I think it is right that the procedure to be adopted should be either a judicial or quasi-judicial procedure, because it is undoubtedly a very grave act to cancel so solemn an instrument as a certification of naturalisation. It carries with it many consequences to the wife and children, sometimes to the transfer of property, and perhaps to testamentary dispositions, and it ought not to be lightly cancelled by a mere administrtive act, but only after careful inquiry into all the circumstances of every particular case. It is necessary also in this case, though I can understand some of my hon. Friends being impatient with the delay, that we should carry with us our Dominions. For very many years past there has been a movement to secure a greater measure of uniformity in laws throughout the Empire in matters affecting the Empire as a whole. Again and again various questions have been brought up at the Imperial Conferences that have been held with a view to securing throughout the whole Empire a common law in matters of common concern. Copyright is one matter, and naturalisation in cases of aliens is another. At last, after long discussion, in 1914, there was drawn up a common Statute, which was enacted not only by the Parliament of this country, but also by the Parliaments of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, with, in some cases, very slight amendments. It would be a thousand pities if now, at the very beginning of this movement to secure a uniform body of Imperial law, and having at last passed one Statute, at all events, which affects the Empire as a whole, we should immediately proceed to establish fresh divergencies, and for one part of the Empire, of its own initiative and without the concurrence of the rest, to introduce amendments of the common law. I think the Government are well advised in inviting the attention of the Committee and in delaying action here until concurrent action can be taken in the different Parliaments throughout the Empire. In respect to repatriation, the same Committee was engaged in considering the lines along which the repatriation of interned Germans should proceed after the War. I quite agree with my right hon. Friend that it would only cause inconvenience and embarrassment, with no substantial advantage, to declare to the whole world now what those lines are to be. The measures are ready. A year ago even the Orders in Council were being drawn up, and I think the House should rest content in the knowledge that the matter has been fully considered and that when the moment comes for action the necessary measures will be found to be ready. With respect to internment, the hon. and gallant Member for Christchurch and the hon. Member for Ealing urged that we should have done with all exemptions and exceptions, and that we should intern all alien enemies. I think the Home Secretary—and I am sure the House will agree—has given against that view an absolutely irrefutable argument.

Take the case of a Bohemian who has lived under Austrian rule and who, before the War, fled to this country, perhaps in order to escape arrest. He arrives here, and, at the outbreak of the War, would my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Christchurch (General Croft) have gone to him and said to him, "You are an Austrian, and you will have to come under the law; we must keep you behind barbed wire"? Or, take the case of an Italian of the Trentino, who may have taken part in a revolutionary agitation against Austrian rule in the interests of Italia Irredenta and takes refuge in this country. Is he to be interned as an alien enemy? An Armenian may have seen his family butchered by the Turks, and he may, after intense hardships, and escaping the gravest dangers, have succeeded, perhaps, in making his way through Russia and Scandinavia to this country. Are we, when he arrives on our shore, immediately to say, "You are a Turk and an alien, and you will have to be interned behind barbed wires till the end of the War"? The proposition is a preposterous one, and those who say that all those who are Germans, Austrians, or Turks, without exception, must be interned, are advancing a proposition of a kind that will not bear a single moment's examination. The same applies, to some extent, to many of the Poles, though not all Poles, and the same applies to a certain extent to Slavs and Alsatians—a large class who must obviously be exmpted from internment. Individual cases have been alluded to. A year ago I gave two or three further illustrations. Here is one man of whom I spoke, a German, aged sixty, with a British-born wife, and ten British-born children; he had three sons, two nephews, two brothers-in-law, all of whom voluntarily enlisted in our Army. Would my hon. and gallant Friend intern that man?

I am sure he is expressing a view which is shared by exceedingly few Members of the House. If we knew anything against him, if we had any reason to doubt his loyalty, or to suspect him of any sinister action, unquestionably he would have been interned. When these cases have been before the Advisory Committee, before two judges of the High Court, and four Members of this House, they have always found it reasonable that the individual in that position should be exempted. Yet my hon. and gallant Friend, by applying a ruthless general rule, would say to the man, "You must go behind the barbed wire," and that man, while interned, might conceivably receive a War Office telegram to say that his son had been killed or seriously wounded, while fighting on behalf of the British Crown against those of his own nationality. Another case is that of a German, sixty-six years of age, who had a British-born wife, he has been here forty-three years, and is nearly blind, being entirely supported by a British-born daughter. Does my hon. and gallant Friend say that man, in accordance with his general rule, should be interned?

There should be no exception. You cannot make exceptions. We are at war, and exceptions cannot be made on grounds of sentiment.

The hon. Member has not given any reason to show that it is folly, nor has he given any reason for thinking that in any of these cases untoward results would follow. If there had been anything of a suspicious character, if it was thought that any of these men had been guilty of espionage, then, indeed, there might be a case for saying, "Well, we have made mistakes; our Committee has been too lax, let us intern them." There has been no such case. As to sentiment, there may be a sentiment of weakness, and there also can be a sentiment of hatred, undiscriminating, and the hon. and gallant Member may be no less moved by considerations of sentiment than those who say that exemptions are properly made in cases such as these. There was another case of a German, sixty-seven years of age, who came here when he was only two and a half years old, and has lived here ever since, and had a British-born wife and three British-born children.

No; these are all unnaturalised cases. It would have been better, no doubt, if they had been naturalised, but I understand the hon. and gallant Gentleman to say that naturalisation would make no difference.

I did not say that; I said that immediately before the War they became naturalised.

I am convinced, after dealing with this question for twelve months, and that being the view taken by successive Governments, that, if it is right primâ facie that all should be interned—and the vast majority has been interned—then, if any are to be exempted, the onus of proof must rest upon those who ask for exemption, and the matter should be referred to an authoritative and representative body. I would suggest that a patriotic committee, such as that which has been advising on this subject, should give their assistance and advise the Home Office on the course that should be taken. The doctrine that you are to intern all indiscriminately seems to me—whether you are taking the case of friendly Czechs, Italians, Poles, or Roumanians, or whether you take the case of a man living here all his life who is married to a British-born wife, and has children serving in our Army—to set aside every consideration of humanity and good faith.

I am sure the House and the majority of people outside will be pleased with the efficient manner in which the Home Secretary has dealt with this question. None of us desires that anyone should be uninterned who would be likely to act against the country. The majority of the British people are quite willing to leave this matter in the hands of the Government, knowing that enemy aliens are interned when there is the slightest danger of their doing anything inimical to this country. I have observed that there are a few Members who, both inside the House and outside the House, are bringing up case after case for discussion. My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford has brought up case after case in this House at Question Time, with the result that, after inquiry, they were found to be really mare's nests. I do not think that any of my non. Friends who take the view of the hon. Member for Brentford have ever put their finger on a single spy.

There is a great deal in what my right hon. Friend says, that we ought not to look for these spies amongst the Germans; you have got to look for them among the Scandinavians, the Americans, and other neutrals. Fortunately, the common sense of the country will back up, I am quite sure, the action of the late Home Secretary and the present Home Secretary; but there are people outside who have been bitten by some sort of disease which I should describe as delirium tremens Teutonicum . They see German spies running up the walls, and shaking their bedclothes; and wherever they see a German, no matter what the circumstances, to them there is something wrong. My right hon. Friend mentioned the case of a man who left Bohemia years ago. There is the case of a man who fought in the Russian Army and who was a teacher of music and a first-class violinist. He was interned, and, after eighteen months, when the business of this man had disappeared, they came to the conclusion to liberate him, with the result, his connection having vanished, that he had to take a small job in a theatre. There was the case of another man who was killed, his death having been brought about through the action of the Home Office, and, to my mind, if the Home Office has erred at all it has not been on the side of leniency. I think that the Home Secretary has made out an absolutely good case, and that he has proved to the satisfaction of the House and the country that the line he has adopted is a wise and humane one, and I feel certain that he will be justified in the end. I have not heard of a single case, and I challenge any hon. Member to produce one, of a man who has been released from internment and who has erred against this country. A good deal of this, I think, has originated—although, of course, I do not suggest that my hon. Friend who brought forward this Amendment is influenced in this way—owing to trade rivalry. I came across one or two cases of that kind where men have been charged with all sorts of things, and when investigated by the constabulary there was not the slightest foundation for those charges. I hope that my right hon. Friend will stand to his position and not be persuaded by extremists to take this very extreme and unnecessarily harsh view.

I think the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary has met us very fairly this afternoon, and I rise to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. He has promised that we shall have a new Bill in regard to naturalisation as soon as possible. Personally I am quite prepared to accept the interpretation he put on national reasons with regard to internment, and, under those circumstances, I ask leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question again proposed.

Food Supplies (Distribution)

I wish to raise the question of the food supply, and more especially the question of food distribution. Everyone who has followed this question knows that the position as a whole in regard to quite a number of articles of food is growing more acute, and that the worst has not been reached yet by any means. I think there is no doubt at all that the position will be considerably worse before the end of the winter and in the spring. In view of that I think it is of the utmost importance that Members should bring their minds to bear on this question from various point of view, and try to bring forward remedies and solutions. There is a growing shortage, and I think there will be a growing shortage, in regard to such commodities as bacon, butter, cheese, eggs, ham, milk, margarine, sugar, tea, jam, syrups, and so on. Lord Rhondda made a speech the other day in which he said there was a miserable lot of grousing and of grumbling. I dare say there is, and I have very little sympathy with the man who merely grumbles because he has got to go short of, say, a rasher of bacon in the morning or something of that kind. There is a kind of grumbling which is entirely foolish and selfish. Lord Rhondda knows as well as anyone else that there are numbers of people in this country who are enduring very real hardship, and who are likely to endure worse hardships, and the fact that some people grumble foolishly does not in any way absolve the Government from improving the whole machinery of food distribution. Let me give one or two examples of actual cases of what people are enduring in regard to the supply of milk, and these facts from household experience are supplied to me by a woman social worker in London. First of all is a case in a village near London, a family with two small boys and a baby of twelve months unable to get any milk last weekend. The mother was ill and unable to take practically anything else; the baby in this case had Nestlé's milk occasionally. In the same place a family of five children, including a baby a few months old not being nursed by the mother, and they only got half a pint of milk per day. Here is another case from North Kensington, London. The husband earns £2 per week, there are six children, the eldest ten and the youngest an infant. The child of three had an accident, and a child of five bronchitis. The woman is unable to afford any milk, and by the end of the week has no money and is practically without food. The children are all delicate and need careful feeding; the husband has his meals at work where he is employed at a cost of 12s. per week.

Where you get domestic facts like those and where side by side with them you find large numbers of women waiting for hours in food queues, it is impossible to expect that there will be no grumbling. There will be grumbling, and the duty devolves on the Government to try and speed up the very best system and methods of distribution for the purpose of getting rid of those particular evils. When some of us raised this question in this House as far back as February, 1915, we tried to argue that a mere rise in wages was no real remedy, and that the real thing to do was to keep prices down as far as that could be done, because unless that was done the rise in wages in the main only goes to a minority of well-organised workers who are able to force it, while the rise in wages leaves out large numbers of people who need it very badly, including old age pensioners, but the rise in food prices affects them all. Therefore, in so far as we can remedy this food problem, it is far more important that that should be done—that is, the regulation of prices—than that there should be increased wages. When we put that forward then, the doctrine preached from both Front Benches was that the only remedy for rise in prices was rise in wages. A right hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but if he looks back to the OFFICIAL REPORT he will find that that was the remedy that was put forward. I say that that remedy has landed us where we are now, and to a considerable extent it has been in the nature of a vicious circle. It is important now even that the matter should be grappled with, because I am convinced of this, that the organised workers no less than the others would have been willing all through the War to give up demands to get increased wages if there had been any real attempt to grapple with the rise in the cost of living. They were anxious that prices should be controlled, and if they had been more effectively controlled they would not have put forward the demands which were found necessary.

I am going to say very little about the production side of this question, though it is very important, but I hope other hon. Members will deal with that aspect. I wish to say in a general way that in my opinion, when we hear a great deal about manpower, that there has been a great deal of dissipation of man-power, and that again and again the Government has failed to reconcile conficting claims. You had, perhaps, the President of the Board of Agriculture stating in the country that decisions in regard to taking men from the land had come upon him with the effect of a staggering blow. The same thing has happened in regard to shipyards, and the some thing in regard to distributive shops. If there is to be any wise scheme of distribution to-day, one of the greatest difficulties will be that the distributive shops have been so entirely denuded of labour, so that it is very difficult for them to carry on in an efficient way. I say that there has been inside and outside the Army considerable waste and squandering of men and a certain lack of foresight. That is the only suggestion I wish to put forward in regard to that, because I expect that other Members will deal with the matter. I think there is also a good deal of food to be found in the game in this country. Up to the present we have enforced rigorously the game laws. There are large numbers of rabbits in the country, there is certainly a certain number of wild fowl, and there are deer, hares and pheasants, partridges, and so on. I think it is important that the game laws should be entirely abolished, at any rate for the duration of the War. Anyone who can add to the food supply from that quarter ought not to be treated as a criminal, but as a public benefactor. I see that the Government has appointed a Committee, with Lord Lamborne at its head. I do not know whether Lord Lamborne is to be known as a sort of rabbit controller or not. I do hope that that Committee will act in the direction of getting a relaxation of the game laws and that something will be done in that way to add to the food supplies of the country.

Everybody will admit readily enough that Lord Rhondda and his Parliamentary representative who ably represents him in this House have a very difficult and very thankless task. I can imagine no more difficult or thankless task than that of Food Controller. I am bound to say that in my opinion again and again I think that Lord Rhondda has tried to grapple with this matter, and in certain directions, as we will no doubt hear, certain things have happened. But there is a great deal of official red-tape about the whole question, and very often there appears to me to be conflict between Government Departments, and that the Government is not quite certain what it wants to do. You will, perhaps, have the Ministry of Food trying to bring prices down, and side by side with that the Board of Agriculture trying to keep prices up and actually introducing legislation in this House from the standpoint of keeping prices up with regard to potatoes, wheat, and other things. I am told, I do not know whether it is true or not, and perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us, that there have been struggles between the Ministry of Food, say and the Local Government Board in regard to schemes for better milk distribution, and that because of those difficulties and those conflicts and those jealousies between two different Government Departments that schemes have been postponed and delayed for quite a long time. The same thing is true, I believe, as between the Ministry of Food and the Treasury when schemes come forward that involve some expenditure of public money. In those cases there has to be discussion and re-discussion, and the whole matter is hung up, and I am afraid that the epitaph over some of those schemes will be the epitaph "too late," because it does happen that before they are brought forward to a large extent the virtue has gone out of them.

I have no doubt also that the Ministry of Food has got to fight a very hard fight against vested interests in this country. For my own part, I think that as far as possible the trading community ought to be brought in to help. I do not believe that you can build up a scheme of food distribution through Government officials and through Government Departments. You have got to call to your aid all the existing machinery, both retail and wholesale, and use it to the best advantage. There ought to be Government supervision over it all, because it is important, especially in time of war, but the important point ought to be this, to see that all who are doing work are well paid for the work they do, but that there is no exploitation of the community because of the special emergency of the War. There ought to be fair remuneration. In regard to the whole question, the Ministry of Food, in my opinion, ought to cut through vested interests where vested interests are standing in the way of public good. It is public good that ought to have right of way. There have been certain reductions made in prices. The Ministry of Food has brought down the price of commodities like home-grown mutton, potatoes, beef, bread, flour, and cheese. I dare say that we will have all those facts put before us, but I do hope that a better explanation will be forthcoming than that given by Sir Arthur Yapp the other day at one of his many meetings in this country. Sir Arthur Yapp was asked why it was that the Ministry of Food allowed prices to go up till they reached the top before they fixed the maximum. He said the reason why he allowed prices to reach the top before he fixed a maximum was in order that the Department might later have a chance of cheapening the price of food. That, I am sorry to say, was not an answer which carried conviction to any working-class mind. That was stated the other day in an address to the postal servants. I imagine that it will convince my hon. Friend opposite just as little as it convinced anyone else. In regard to this matter it does seem to me that the Government are playing too much the part of Mr. Micawber. They always seem to be waiting for something to turn up. We have optimistic speeches one day, even in the middle of appeals for food economy. We have the Prime Minister, perhaps, getting up in his place and saying, "The submarine menace: of it I have no further fear." On 19th November the right hon. Gentleman said that. Since the Prime Minister told us that he had no further fear of the submarine we all know, from the published figures, that over fifty large British ships, which is only one small part of the story, have been sunk on account of submarine activity. The people begin to wonder what the Government really desire them to do. They get pessimistic statements one day, and optimistic statements the next. There is far too much of that. The result is more and more that the public are paying very little attention to public statements and public declarations.

When Lord Devonport was Food Controller we had one or two bad weeks of submarine activity, and I remember well that Lord Devonport set up a Committee to see how he could bring about a more equal and fair system of distribution. I know that was done, because I was asked to serve on that particular Committee. We had a few good weeks at sea. There was no more heard of the Committee. Not a single meeting was held. In place of holding meetings of that Committee we were treated to some cheap oratorical champagne in the House, with the view of inspiriting a jaded House of Commons. Then the whole matter was allowed to drift. I am afraid that in a number of respects the Government are shirking the real issue in regard to this matter. I am quite sure that one reason why food prices are going up is because of the undue inflation of our currency. The Government are not adequately meeting the expanses of the War. They are postponing payment. They are issuing unlimited paper money, which certainly depreciates values, thus helping to create the very problem that we have to face. I should have hoped that long ago we should have begun to build up the machinery which is just beginning to be put together, bit by bit, by experiment, by finding out what could be done and adding to it as time went on, and as experience showed what was desirable. I am convinced that that is what has to be done, and if it is going to be done, must be done gradually, experimentally. What I am really afraid of is this: that we are going to dally with this question until the matter reaches a state of acute crisis. Then we shall have panic and clamour in the newspapers, and then the Government will be rushing into doing all sorts of things without proper consideration, under circumstances in which there will be the danger of a very serious breakdown. I say that if that does happen there will be a very grave reckoning, in which not only the Government—that will be unimportant—will be involved; there will be a very grave reckoning for the nation, as well as for the Government, if they should bungle this food question.

We have reached a stage of widespread voluntary appeals. Everybody knows that there is a need for the utmost voluntary economy, for there is a real shortage of supplies. I do not believe for a minute that you are going to solve this question by the action of Sir Arthur Yapp and the many speeches he delivered. Indeed, I thing he delivers too many speeches. We get a speech from Sir A. Yapp each morning, and they have begun to lose their effect. I am convinced that you want something more than to have speeches each day, and to tell the people that unless they economise voluntarily compulsion will come upon them. They have been listening to that kind of thing for over a year, to exactly the same kind of speech, to exactly the same threat. Some of these people who are standing in food queues to-day have not any fear of rationing at all, for they think they might be better off under some rationing scheme; they know pretty well they could not be much worse off than many of them are at the present time. You are certainly very much handicapped in regard to appeals for voluntary economy by the fact that there is still a great deal of luxurious eating allowed in this country. You get it in some of the West End hotels. You get statements published in the newspapers from time to time concerning these matters. I asked the Parliamentary Secretary a question the other day in regard to a banquet at Romford. He asked me to give him particulars. In point of fact I put the particulars actually in my question, but for some reason they disappeared apparently before the question reached the Order Paper. However, I am now going to tell him of what this banquet consisted—and this is in the fourth year of the War! It was a banquet arranged by the Masonic organisation. I think, however, I ought to say this in fairness to the Masonic organisation, that I believe this kind of thing is entirely discountenanced by them nationally, and that this was exceptional. Being exceptional it ought to be stopped altogether, either by the Food Department or some other Department. Listen to what these people sat down to: Oysters, oxtail soup, tomato soup, boiled turbot (sauce Hollandaise), fried soles (sauce mâitre d'hotels), chicken cutlets, roast saddle of mutton, roast surloin of beef, Yorkshire pudding, a la Romaine, roast pheasant, Macedoine of fruit, Swiss creams, dessert, coffee.

Is not that absurd? Compare that with the scrambling now going on in many directions to secure even a bare supply of food-stuffs, and you get there all the elements for the creation of a most dangerous state of feeling in the country. Side by side with that let me read something very different as to what is happening at the present time to some people who are being severely rationed. These are inmates of some of our institutions in London. I have particulars from a religious worker here in regard to the inmates of two workhouse infirmaries, where she says: slack. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether action is being taken by his Department to speed up the worst of the food control committees and bring them up to more like a level with the best? I think it is very important indeed, because it is impossible that this food problem can be solved through the Food Controller's office in London. There must be a large measure of decentralisation, the thing must be in the hands of the people who know the local circumstances and the local facts. The nearer you can get to the people themselves the better for all concerned. It is highly important, therefore, that you should get the right kind of local food committee, men of public spirit and active, who are determined to make the best of this matter.

I now come to the question of food queues. These, as we know, are growing in many parts of the country. Here is an extract from this morning's "Times": As the "Times" very truly says: "It is not merely the long wait, but in the end, again and again hundreds, and in some cases, even thousands, are turned away unsupplied from these etablishments. It is very hard, too, in the case of women munition workers who have to work in the factories all day. They have no opportunity of standing in the queues in the early morning, and long before they come home from the works—the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Woolwich knows all this very well—long before they come home in the evenings the things they need are sold out, and they have to go without, although they need them if their health and efficiency are to be maintained so that their work can be done. They complain that rich women do not have to stand in food queues. I think if the wives of Members of Parliament had to get up at half-past five in the morning and stand in a queue until eight o'clock, when the shop was opened, a great deal more would be heard here about food queues, and there would be much more anxiety that they should be abolished. Yet surely it is quite as important that women of the working classes should be saved from this as that wives of Members of Parliament should be. It is creating deep social discontent, which will in time show itself in active manifestations.

Why are there these queues? First of all there is scarcity, and then there is inequality of distribution. There is neither order nor organisation. Undoubtedly there is a shortage of food. People say, "If there is no food we cannot get it." But you do not solve the problem by platitudes like that. If there is a shortage of food, that is all the more reason for having proper organisation, to see that everybody gets a share, otherwise there is going to set in a most demoralising scramble. It is the very fact that people know there is a shortage that makes them go out and take their places in the queue early in the morning. Then, again, some shops seem to be treated much better than others so far as the supply of certain articles is concerned. You get certain shops, especially certain multiple shops, supplying margarine, and there are thousands of people outside their doors, although other shops in the neighbourhood, who could help in this problem of meeting the needs of the people, get no supplies whatever. Multiple shops look upon it as a splendid advertisement for themselves that they have thousands of people standing outside their shops. It may be a fine advertisement for them, but it is not a good advertisement for the nation. It is not a good advertisement of its efficiency, and it is going to lead to bad results. In so far as there are available supplies, whether of margarine or anything else, they ought not to be regarded as the monopoly of some particular shop. They should be circulated among all the shops, which ought to be called in to help in this work from the standpoint of national service. That, I am convinced, is absolutely essential. Then, again, some of these shops advertise when they are going to open, and they only keep open for a few hours per day, and the result is that in those cases you get queues of 2,000 or 3,000 people awaiting the opening. Clearly in that respect there is need for organisation. That organisation must be based on the registration of customers.

I would like to deal with one or two specific things in regard to their distribution. Take first the question of milk. Of that article there is a shortage and a good deal of hardship is the result. In many places the price has gone up to 8d. per quart. I would like to ask whether the slaughter of milch cows is still going on; and if so, why? Do the Departments intend to take action in this matter? I am told that both here and in Ireland the slaughter of milch cows is still taking place. That is a most serious thing from the standpoint of the milk supply of this country. I should like to ask also whether the Department is now pressing forward a scheme of such a character that it will ensure that children and invalids shall not go short of milk, even if everybody else has to be cut right off. I think that that is vital from the standpoint of the health of the nation. I should like to utter this note of warning. If you are going to bring forward any scheme of milk distribution, do not base it on the idea of necessitous children; do not attach to it any taint of pauperism or discrimination in regard to it. In respect of milk suplies, all children are necessitous children and therefore any scheme should apply equally to the children of everybody so far as they require to be supplied with milk. I am convinced, speaking from my knowledge of the labour movement, that it will resist any scheme that attempts to allow people to investigate or inquire as to whether a child is really necessitous. The benefit of any special milk scheme should apply all round. It should aim at a fair and equal distribution, so far as milk is concerned.

Then there is the question of butter. That apparently is a disappearing commodity. We are told that very little butter comes from Denmark and that there is great difficulty in regard to shipments from Australia and New Zealand. I do not know whether there is any prospect of getting butter from Ireland. In some cases margarine is being sold as butter. But I also hear of errors in transport. The other day a complaint was made at Dublin that while twenty cases of Australian butter had reached that city—the statement was made by a member of the Dublin docks board—they were at the very time they were importing butter into Dublin sending butter from Dublin to Liverpool. That must involve a waste of shipping and money. It indicates a lack of organisation.

I am afraid, in regard to sugar a good many people will have to go without, because they are neglecting to register for it. The fact is they are getting befogged by all these sugar Regulations. First, there was the registration form to be filled up, then we were told that that was to be exchanged for a household sugar declaration form, and in turn that was to be exchanged for sugar tickets! It seems to me that the Government have evolved the most difficult and complicated thing possible in regard to this particular commodity; many families do not know where they stand; they are neglecting to fill in the declaration form, and the result will be that they will go without an article that they need so much.

In regard to meat, we are told that there is a shortage of 1,000 tons at Smith-field. I have heard complaints from butchers that no attempt has been made to fix the price of live animals. The butchers of Peterborough and elsewhere practically threaten to go out on strike because they say that though the price of the meat they sell is controlled, the price of that which they have to buy for sale is very often not controlled. If that be the case something ought to be done. I am sure in regard to the price of meat local control committees do not always enforce the Regulations in the same way. In some cases they are more lax than in others, and that seems to give a preference to butchers in one town over those in another.

With regard to shipping freights no doubt there is a very heavy loss of shipping due to submarine and other causes. It seems to me the time has come when all unnecessary imports should be cut off. Nothing in the nature of luxuries should be imported. In regard to fruits, I am told that in some directions at least freights are still high. Some people think fruit is a luxury. I hold that it is an absolute necessity. It possesses great medicinal properties, and if people are compelled to go without the national health will suffer. Take the case of the importation of oranges from Spain. The pre-war freight was 10½d. to 1s. per gross hundredweight. The present charge is 42s. Can you wonder that fruit is disappearing from the markets under these circumstances? Then in the case of onions from Spain. The pre war prices ranged from 9d. to 1s. per case; the present price is 35s. These are facts which certainly ought to be investigated.

Whoever it goes to it is a matter which ought to be inquired into. These commodities are disappearing from the market. I read a speech by Lord Rhondda the other day in which he drew attention to the fact that magistrates, especially the unpaid magistracy, were very reluctant to impose penalties for infractions of the food regulations. I was surprised to see that at the South-Western Police Court recently a grocer was sent to gaol for a month for avoiding the butter price Regulation, the magistrate saying that he was determined to protect the people from such profiteers. But that magistrate is an exception; in the great majority of cases the penalty is not adequate to the offence, and it often becomes quite profitable to break the law in this way in certain cases. Sterner methods should be adopted.

In regard to the remedies for this state of things, I would suggest, first, that it might be worth while looking into the question of overlapping vans as regards distribution. There is a great deal of overlapping, and that, together with the difficulties of transport, if remedied, would certainly help to clear up difficult points. There would seem to be a discrimination between traders, and very often it appears to favour multiple shops. I believe that the queue system is unnecessary, and that it could be avoided by Proper organisation. The distribution should begin from the household, as has already been attempted in the case of sugar. There should be a definite registration of customers. The customer ought to be asked at which shop he intends to get the things he wants—the things in regard to which there is a shortage. Quite a large number of the co-operative societies, including the Royal Arsenal Society at Woolwich, have compiled a food register, and are trying to apportion justly all those things of which there is a shortage. But no individual society or individual trader could do that by himself or by itself, because there is no guarantee they would get the supplies. If it is going to be done it should be done as part of a national system, but that is entirely different from building up some new and entirely wonderful scheme of rationing to be run by a Government Department and Government officials. You must call to your aid the whole of the existing machinery of distribution, wholesale and retail. I believe if you appealed to them they would respond readily. I am quite sure that the great co-operative societies would, and I have no reason to think that private traders or multiple shops would be less ready to do so. They would either have to come in or stand out, and no doubt they would come in.

I have received a great number of letters from all parts of the country from traders and from co-operative societies, and in each case they put forward the same remedy for the queue; it is that goods should be distributed equally all round. They want a chance to deal with their own customers, so that each customer may get his share and no more. I believe if that were done it would go a very long way to meet the problem. That is the remedy supported by various societies representing organised workers. It has been taken up at Birmingham, Reading, and other towns. I would strongly urge that the Government Department should press this matter forward in every possible way. My last word is this, that the present lessons of the War, the economic and social lessons, are burning themselves very deeply into the public mind and especially into the minds of the working classes. I believe that many people who are taking advantage of the War for their own enrichment will find that they have been penny wise and pound foolish in the long run. They are creating a great feeling against themselves, and more and more in the future the democracy of this country will begin to take its life and its destinies into its own hands. It will reorganise national life from the standpoint of democratic co-operation, by all and for all, so that life may be made rich for the whole community rather than for the individual merely.

8.0 p.m.

It has been thought advisable that I should take this early opportunity and intervene at this stage of the Debate because much of what I have to say must necessarily affect the current of the discussion. I hope it will be for the general convenience of the House, and with regard to certain particular points which may arise after I have spoken I may seek an opportunity towards the close of the Debate, if the House will permit me, to answer those particular points, as I have no wish to evade any of them. My hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson) asked for this opportunity some weeks ago in order, as his written request says, that a chance should be given to the House, through its Members, to make helpful suggestions with regard to the food situation. I have listened to every word of his speech. He has reminded us of our past omissions, of the things that were not done years before the Food Ministry was created; he has, in the second part of his speech, pictured the distresses which we are well aware large numbers of the public are suffering; and when he reached the third part of his speech I listened all the more intently for the helpful suggestions that were to be placed at our disposal in respect of the difficult task we have in hand. I will not say that I have listened entirely in vain, but I will say that I believe my hon. Friend will find, as I give my account on behalf of the Ministry, that, so far as he has made suggestions, in respect of every one of them he has been anticipated, and if, as he suggests and argues, we are to act through the existing channels, through the existing machinery, as represented by the shopkeepers, the retailers, the wholesalers, the dealers, the food producers, and the others; if we are to follow the principal course which he has laid down, there are not, in my mind, any methods that can be followed other than those which the Ministry of Food is seeking now to apply. Here I would like—because it is important—to correct the interjection, and remove the impression that interjection will cause, made by the hon. Gentleman who sat below the Gangway (Mr. Pringle). He stated to the House that the difference between the small sum paid for the carriage of fruit or onions and the large sum now paid was received, and I suppose kept or used by, the Shipping Controller. That is a wholly wrong impression. It is not my business to defend that particular Department, but I make the correction, as I think it is important.

I agree with that part of my hon. Friend's speech which reminded us of the delays of the Government in 1915 and 1916 with regard to these food problems, and I acted with him in February, 1915, in pressing upon the House the necessity of taking these matters in hand. We then proposed—I was appointed, in fact, by the Labour party to do it—definite remedies which even at that early stage we thought ought to be followed. I am, however, here to answer for the existing Food Ministry, and not to take up the time of the House at this moment to defend or explain the sms of omission or neglect of previous Governments which existed before the Ministry of Food was created. The Ministry of Food, I can assure my hon Friend, in the past month or two has had an anxious time. It has kept in mind the distresses of the poor people who have suffered acutely not only because of food shortages, but because of the physical distresses they have endured in obtaining certain food only in email quantities. While, however, we are conscious of these distresses, we are and must be mindful of even greater sufferings which are being endured as a consequence of the War. These sufferings offer us no excuse for any limitations or any shortcomings on the part of the Food Ministry, but the civil population of this country, after all, has endured only insignificant privations compared with the distresses and physical sufferings being endured every hour by the millions of the men of the civil population who went out to the front to see this battle through. We must not forget that these privations must be compared. Your soldier may find the rations have not come up in the front line at the appointed time, but he cannot seek to hurry you up by any threat of downing tools. He must go on with his duty under the very worst of physical conditions. Not merely is he often short of food, not merely has he usually to take it in its crudest form—he is housed for the most part often in a mere hole in the ground—but he has in every respect to endure distresses which cannot in any sense be compared with even the worst of the distresses of the civil part of our population.

I am not for the moment suggesting that my hon. Friend has made any partisan use of the food problem with which we have to cope, and I am not even concerned about any arguments which I may have to offer in the course of my remarks. The important point is, What are we doing what are we trying to do, to deal with the existing shortages of food and better to organise the supplies which we may have at our disposal? The Ministry has now assumed very considerable dimensions. It embraces the Wheat Commission, which works through six main committees dealing with cereals, flour, and bread. Then there is the Sugar Commission dealing with the purchase and importation of sugar and its distribution to first-hand buyers; the Meat and Milk Products Division, which has seven supply branches, controlling meat, milk, butter, cheese, oil seeds, foodstuffs, oils and fats, cold-storage, and inland transport, besides the superintendence of the Live Stock Commissioners, whose duty it is to organise our home meat supplies, while there are other divisions dealing with vegetables, jam, tea, coffee, cocoa, dried fruit, and the importation and distribution of bacon, hams, and lard. Then there is the Food Economy Division, which conducts the food economy campaign. That is not, however, the limit of its energies, for that division conducts and organises a practical effort to institute public kitchens, a branch of service with which I am sure my hon. Friend will fully sympathise. There is also the Local Authorities Division, which superintends the Divisional Food Commissioners and the Local Food Committees. There are 2,000 of these committees. They enjoy very considerable powers with reference to the control of prices, distribution, transport, food economy, and the enforcement of Orders. That is but a thin picture of the huge undertaking which Lord Rhondda some time ago undertook to work.

I agree that many of the local food committees are not fully using their powers. We have invested them with very great authority, and we have reminded them, I will not say constantly but frequently, of the existence of these powers and of the desirability of making the fullest use of them. More than ten weeks ago I acted with certain heads of the Ministry of Food in trying to settle arrangements on that very matter: the distribution of articles and the consequent saving of power of transit, not merely by ordinary vans, but by motors and by other means of conveyance which are at the disposal of these big firms. These things do take time. They form a question having two branches—one's interest as a consumer and one's interest as a food provider in one form or another. You cannot govern by merely sending out postcards on this great question. It is very complicated; it requires interviews; you must meet and confer. You cannot settle the price of an article by stating a figure. You must justify your proposal, or have a result to the effect that the people concerned will go on strike and cease to supply you. You must, therefore, meet your difficulties by meeting those involved in food supply and distribution, and make arrangements with them fair to the consumer and fair to the producer. Time, therefore, is a necessity, however urgent the settling of any partcular item of the question may be. Our problem is under three heads—that of getting supplies, that of fixing and controlling prices, and that of equitably and speedily arranging distribution. At the present time we are faced with a very serious shortage of meats and fats. The lack of tonnage has diminished our stocks of imported goods and our ability to bring more in. It is not only difficult to bring over supplies of butter and bacon, but it is difficult to obtain them, since countries like Holland and Denmark, from which we used to draw so much, are unable to produce their usual quantities. Added to this is the heavily increased demand for military purposes. Our figures do not indicate that there has been any general increase in civilian consumption. The increase in consumption in the autumn as compared with the summer months of this year is not at a greater rate than the increase from the summer to the Autumn of 1916, but the total consumption of 1917 as compared with 1916 shows a rise, and it is imperative, particularly in the case of all meats, that consumption should be appreciably diminished.

We have on occasion been charged with failing duly to consult persons of experience, persons of a representative character, in regard to our work. In this, as in all other respects, I suppose, we must learn by experience, and as each need is revealed to us we meet that need and do the best we can. There is in the Ministry, I can assure the House, a keen desire—particularly, if I may say so, entertained by Lord Rhondda himself—to utilise the services of experienced traders and of representatives of the co-operative movement not merely in an advisory capacity, but in the executive and administrative work of the Ministry itself. Our first buyer in the United States was a co-operator, and he still goes on that mission. Other representatives are acting as buyers in other countries. I have one co-operative representative as a private secretary to myself, and another acts as assistant secretary to the Director of Milk Supplies. For every important food there is an advisory committee of persons familiar with the trade, and on each of these committees there is at least one representative for the co-operative movement. Altogether, there are no less than fifteen representatives on such advisory committees. But even that is not enough, and more must be done under the circumstances created, and under the new conditions which have surged upon us in the past five or six weeks.

Accordingly, I made some time ago some suggestions to my Noble Friend the Food Controller, with a view to securing more direct representation of consumers as such in the work of the Ministry. Lord Rhondda has accepted these suggestions, and we propose to set up in the Ministry a Consumers' Council. He has asked me to be its chairman, and on this Council we shall ask representatives to sit who will act for the organised working classes, and we shall ask women also to act upon that Council, in addition to co-operators and others who can express the view of the organised consumer. We propose that such representatives shall not merely come in once a week to be told some story by an official, to pass resolutions of approval, merely to be told that the price of an article has been fixed at so-and-so, but that they shall know for themselves the processes by which things are done, and see with an eye on the consumer whether the interests and rights of consumers are being properly watched or not. That course, I hope, will meet any remaining feeling of discontent that may exist with regard either to co-operators or labour interests not being properly protected. My view of the matter is that we can group under some, perhaps it may be ten or a dozen, heads the various foods and the various questions with which the Ministry has to deal. That is to say, bread and cereals, butter margarine, etc., may form one group. The general question of local authorities and transport might form another group of problems to be dealt with. Meat, bacon, hams, lards, oils, fats, etc., would form another group. Tea, sugar, coffee, and milk, and other kindred artcles another group, and so on, and those who would come to take charge of this work would be expert and competent by virtue of limiting their attention to only a few of the questions and a few of the articles which have to be dealt with.

I do not think it is an abuse of the time of the House for me to try and show that, so far as organised labour, represented by hon. Members below the Gangway, by the trades unions, by the political Labour party, or any other body, has had a solution of the food problem, the Food Ministry has applied that solution. Labour demanded that the prices of commodities should be fixed in order to cheapen them for the poor. Secondly, it demanded that the profiteer and the middleman should be thrust aside as out of place in War time. Thirdly, it demanded that the Government should buy food in large quantities in different parts of the world and control its supply; and, lastly, that money should be found from the National Exchequer as a war charge in order to reduce prices of food where reduction could not be effected by any other means. That is a fair summary—and it is a subject which I have followed for the last three years—of the official policy of organised labour, and under any one and every one of those heads the most extreme measures have been applied by the Food Ministry. So far as we could get money, so far as we could get means to act not one of these branches of the labour solution of the food problem has been neglected, and no measure, I can assure my hon. Friend, which can be effective for our purpose can be too extreme for my Noble Friend the Food Controller.

Let me now prove that, under those heads, effective steps have been taken in the four directions mentioned. I think it can be said very briefly that the price of every food of any importance is now either fixed directly, or is controlled by the process of limiting the price which the producer and the retailer of the food may enjoy. The only exception at the present moment is fish, vegetables—that is, apart from potatoes, the price of which is fixed—fruit, cocoa and condensed milk. We have, in the case of the principal foodstuffs, brought under control the following articles: Bread, flour, meat, potatoes, sugar, tea, coffee, milk, butter, cheese, bacon, hams and lard. The control has been extended to other subsidiary foods, such as jam, oatmeal, dried peas and beans, chocolate and sweetmeats. As to bread, the 4 lb. loaf was approaching the price of 1s.—the average price, I believe, was 11½d. The price of the 4 lb. loaf for cash over the counter was reduced to 9d., at a cost of £40,000,000 to the Exchequer. That is substantial to a working class family, the reduction amounting to something between 20 and 25 per cent. upon the bread bill for the week. In the case of meat, the prices have been fixed on a descending scale, so as to show an ultimate reduction of between 20 and 25 per cent. Butchers' profits are limited to 2½d., or to 20 per cent. of their fortnightly turnover, whichever is less. The retail prices have been brought down by 2½d. to 3d. per lb. [An HON. MEMBER: "With the result that there is no meat!"] I will deal with that point. In the case of potatoes, the Prime Minister, in the early part of this year, gave a guarantee which had the effect greatly to stimulate the growing of potatoes, and, as the result, we have produced about 2,000,000 tons more potatoes than in previous years. That has been at the cost of £5,000,000 to the Exchequer. On the whole, I think the guarantee has served its purpose. It has given us an ample crop, but even with that ample supply of potatoes the prices has been fixed, and is now ordinarily 1d. a lb. In many cases, we are assured, potatoes are being sold very much below that price. Contrast that with what the price would be, or with what it was at one time before action of this sort was taken by the Ministry.

As regards milk, the present price is fixed to increase supplies and to encourage production, as well as to pay for the increasing cost of distribution. We want to look, in regard to milk supplies, not a few weeks ahead, or even a few months ahead; we want to look a year ahead, or if possible, a little longer. Prices are fixed at all stages, but local committees are empowered to buy and sell milk, to make arrangements for its distribution and to direct any dealer in their area to supply milk to any consumer or class of con- sumers. That is designed to secure for the poorer classes, and for mothers and children, supplies of milk before other sections of the community. With regard to butter, the average retail price has not been brought down, but it has been fixed, and the tendency to ascend has been prevented. That is an all-important point, for, although you might not actually reduce the price, if you check the tendency to further increase you are conferring a substantial benefit upon the consumer to-day. The prices were tending upwards, even to fancy prices, and they have been stopped by the action of the Ministry. With respect to margarine, here also the prices have been fixed and rises have been prevented at a moment when there was every tendency towards very excessive charges being put upon the consumer.

In the case of cheese, imported American and Canadian cheese is now being sold retail at 1s. 4d. per lb., and in the case of English cheese a considerable reduction has been effected of between 5d. and 6d. per lb. Take the case of tea. Arrangements have been concluded on behalf of the Government with the planters by which the whole supplies needed for civilian consumption will be bought by the Government. This tea should begin to arrive early in the New Year, and should be fit for distribution by the end of January or the beginning of February. Take coffee. All dealers in coffee are required to stock coffee at prices not exceeding 1s. 6d. for roasted or ground coffee, and 1s. 4d. for raw, and if a sufficient stock is kept at these prices other coffees may be sold at prices not exceeding 2s. 6d. per lb. for roasted and 2s. 4d. for raw coffee. Take the case of hams, bacon, and lard. The price of these commodities is controlled now at every stage, but owing to the shortage of supplies it is impossible to effect any marked reduction. The important point is that while supplies are necessarily limited, such quantities as are available will be sold at a reasonable price, and in the absence of control the rise would have been considerable indeed.

I have received from many labour organisations resolutions demanding that unless there was an immediate reduction in these different articles of food, of 50 per cent. in some cases or 25 per cent. mothers, very serious consequences would ensue. My answer is that we do not want merely to fix prices. We have done a great deal, as I am sure my hon. Friend will admit, to protect the consumer and to bring the price of commodities nearer to the level of the wages of the poor. In that direction we have done a great deal, but if we were automatically by some stroke of the pen to say that certain foods must be reduced 25 or 50 per cent., I think the immediate effect would be to absolutely prohibit the supplies of those foods. I am as moved as anyone can be by the picture given by my hon. Friend as to the distress endured through the food queue. Members of my own household have stood in those queues, and I know something of the hardships. They are due to inadequate supplies and inequalities in distribution. The reasons for that inequality vary in different commodities and in different localities. The total or partial stoppage of a particular import affects some places more than others; the traders in one locality may have laid in a larger stock than in other localities. A particular group of shops may have a practical monopoly of the supply of home-produced margarine. In one place the population may have increased out of proportion to the supply, and in another district the staff of shop assistants has been quite inadequate, and besides this there has been a general curtailment of transport facilities.

The remedy to be applied consists of rearrangements for redistribution to remove the inequality and provide that supplies shall be equitabe and available for districts small and large alike. So far as that branch of the remedy can be applied, the Ministry has been working without ceasing ever since the cause for the application of this remedy was revealed to us. It is, however, an immensely complicated job, and, moving as we must through this maze of shops and interests and businesses and dealers and authorities, it does take time to finally settle what is the best plan to meet the extremities of this situation. The other branch of the remedy is in giving to the Local Food Control Committees larger powers than they have at the present time, and asking them—as in the case of the example of Birmingham—to accept ever higher civic responsibilities at this moment of trial through which the country is passing. It may indeed be—and I think it is certain—that certain interests of traders and of private owners will be seriously jeopardised by the application of these measures; but the House may rest assured that the Food Controller will not shrink from submerging both personal and private interests of any traders to meet the necessities of the public interest. In short, I believe this policy to be that property interests must give way, and that principles of commonsense must be applied to the common needs of the community at large, and we are seeking to do that by pressing ceaseingly these points upon the Local Food Committees.

Just a word as to the local shortages which have arisen through the sudden growth of population in particular cases. To meet urgent cases we have created at the Food Ministry a special section, and in fifty districts already additional supplies have been sent. These districts include great centres like Birmingham, Coventry, Woolwich, and Cannock Chase, and the Food Commissioners have received general authority to issue forms of investigation to any Food Control Committee where difficulty is experienced, and to give, on behalf of the Ministry, undertakings to make up deficiencies. In the case of sugar alone additional supplies have been sent to no fewer than 179 cases. Better redistribution has been taken in hand, with a view to diminishing or abolishing the queues, and the scheme is now in operation. No less than 2,500 tons of butter have been sent out in the first distribution only in the last week. This amount constitutes one-sixth of the total applications for the month of December. Two cargoes of butter have arrived recently from Australia, and they will enable the second December distribution to be carried out, and will provide part of the supplies required for the month of January as well. Margarine has tended much to lengthen the queues, but a scheme is being pressed forward now for a more equitable distribution of this article. The unsatisfactory situation in this respect is due mainly again to inequalities of distribution, and this has been aggravated by certain dealers not taking steps voluntarily to apportion the supplies without the driving power of the Food Ministry. There have also been transport and distribution difficulties, and these have accentuated the general trouble.

With regard to margarine and the increased hardship which poor people have to endure, I would like to correct one view of the question which has been put forward in this House and in the news- papers, because it is an entirely false impression as to our relation with the Dutch importers of margarine. A prohibition of the Dutch trade suggested in some quarters would mean a diminution of the supplies to British consumers to the extent of one-third of the total supply. We supply raw materials to Holland, and we receive back an exact equivalent, ton for ton, in the form of margarine. Why do we export any raw material at all? That is the question that some people are asking! The answer is that when the factories which are now in process of erection in this country are completed a large portion of this margarine will be made in this country, and the risk and the additional cost of double transport and sea difficulties will be altogether abolished. I can assure the House that no preference is being given to the Dutch makers, but some little time must elapse before the necessary plant for the full utilisation in this country of all our raw materials can be available. The average weekly output is already nearly twice as great as in 1916, and it ought in three months' time to-be three times as great. An impression prevails that the Food Controller has in his possession large stocks of butter and margarine, and that he could release these stocks if he desired. This is not at all the fact. Supplies in this country are being used to as full an extent as is compatible with safety. Various branches of the provision trade can themselves provide machinery for distribution if they will work more in the interests of the consumer, and such distribution will be more economical and even more efficient than any scheme of Government distribution. I would like those in the trade clearly to-understand that the Food Controller will use his utmost power to prevent any abuse of this machinery, and a great public service will be rendered by the co-operation of the trade in thus voluntarily taking steps to secure for their customers equality of treatment irrespective of class.

I must return for a moment to tea, just to make one or two additions. The shortage is due to reduced imports. Lord Rhondda has taken the view, which it is common knowledge is not shared by other persons of authority, that tea is a necessary food, and the Shipping Controller was asked urgently to provide the necessary tonnage. This has been done, with the result that the imports have now been materially increased, and arrangements have been made by which all the Indian and Ceylon tea required by the United Kingdom will be purchased and imported on Government account. The Government tea, therefore, should begin to arrive early in 1918 and should commence to be distributed by the beginning of February. Wholesale and retail profits will be strictly controlled, and the average price of tea will be substantially reduced. With regard to stocks, it ought to be remembered that about 30,000,000 lbs. of tea is what might be termed more or less in stock. It is tea in stock but not available for immediate use. It has to be entered, sampled, auctioned, and in many cases it has even to be blended. The public therefore ought not to be deceived by figures which one Department of the Government is bound to give, and should understand that these figures may not after all mean the immediate handing over from dock to shop counter of such large quantities of tea. Again, the effect of the recent Order has been to reduce the price on an average by about 6d. per lb. The Dutch Order has fixed both prices and retail profits, thereby securing a reduction in the cost to the consumer, the effect of which cannot at this moment be estimated.

My hon. Friend referred to the question of the distribution of milk and the policy of the Government with relation to the general supplies of milk. He will understand, I am sure, that I cannot answer for the Government as a whole. If I had such power, perhaps I might say a little more, but I am here to answer within the limits of the power of the Food Ministry, which often has to be derived, as the House well knows, from the decisions of the War Cabinet. The existing Milk Order gives power to food control committees to give prior distribution, as I have said before, to certain classes, and we are issuing instructions now to these local food control committees either to supply a scheme and actively to carry out the plan of priority of distribution or definitely to say by resolution that they cannot do it, and that will secure for us the reasons why. This will inevitably involve restriction of supplies for other persons, but there is no doubt that without causing any serious inconvenience the consumption of milk by adults can be very considerably diminished. We have already increased the supply of liquid milk by restricting the use of cream and forbidding the use of milk for milk cholocate and similar purposes, and by making it more profitable to supply whole milk than to use milk for butter. The Cabinet have agreed to a scheme by which milk may be supplied under the supervision of the medical officers of health to necessitous children and to mothers at reduced prices, or even, if the occasion requires it, to supply milk free in these cases.

Will the hon. Member tell me what machinery is going to be set up to decide which children are necessitous and which are not? Is there going to be some kind of tribunal to decide the matter?

As my statement has indicated, it would be on the authority or the note of the medical officer, who would have the direction of any such machinery set up by the local authority. The cost would be borne half by the local authorities and half by the National Exchequer. My hon. Friend referred to the competition or want of co-operation between different State Departments in the matter of food supplies or purchases. To eliminate competitive buying action has not only been taken here at home, but also as between this country and our Allies. The Inter-Allied Wheat Executive was established in November, 1916, between Italy, France, and the United Kingdom, and all purchases for these Allies are coordinated by the operations of this Executive. The other Allies are represented at meetings of the Executive. The Inter-Allied Meat and Fats Executive between England and France was established in August, 1916, Italy signifying her adherence. This Executive co-ordinates purchases of meat and fats. Purchases of sugar have been coordinated through the Royal Commission on Sugar, which has effected purchases on behalf of the Allies. I can assure my hon. Friend that on the whole the serious competition or want of co-operation between different Departments which at one time existed has not for some time past stood in the way of the Food Ministry, and if we have limitations with regard to what we desire those limitations are imposed on the authority of the Cabinet. With regard to competitive buying against other Departments, there is this further to be said, that there is now co-operation with the War Office, and that the civilian and the Army purchases are not any longer in conflict, as they were same time ago

Before I close, let me just give to the House, as this may be the only opportunity for so doing, two or three reasons why we require such elaborate information on the sugar cards which, in the first instance, were provided for sugar only. Why, it is asked, do we want even the date of birth on the sugar card? No system of rations can be carried out effectively without some simple process of identification. I have had the opportunity for many weeks past of acting in some degree upon a Committee which is dealing with the problem of general rations, and we have had to consider a very large number of probable evasions and the problems arising from them. There is a large number of people in the country with the same name. The name, therefore, is not sufficient, and further, individual particulars are necessary. In the industrial population of London alone, who are insured under the Insurance Act, there are over 1,000 William Smiths. Particulars of occupation are useless as a permanent means of identification, as the occupation will be frequently changed, while it will often be described differently at different times, even if it is not actually changed.

There may be several persons named Evan Jones in the same family, perhaps living in the same house, as is the case in some districts in South Wales. The date of birth, furnishes roughly some 25,000 classifications of individuals and affords the best means of identifying persons that can be used in a rationing scheme. To enable an individual to claim rations for himself he must establish his own identity. For example, if a man has accidentally destroyed his card and wants it replaced, he must prove his identity with the man to whom the card was last issued. The only alternative method of proving identity—I can say this on behalf of those who have laboured long to find the simplest meanings for registration—would be the far more irksome and troublesome system of photographs and even the police system of finger prints—an extreme thing which is undesirable. The particulars when obtained on the sugar card, are absolutely confidential, and will not be used except for the purposes of the Ministry of Food. They will not in any sense come into the hands of private persons, employers, or of other Departments for any other State purpose. There will be no postponement of the commence- ment of the sugar distribution scheme, which will begin on the 31st inst. After the 30th inst. no retailer will be permitted to sell sugar except to the extent of the authorised ration. Ordinarily, the document of evidence will be the new sugar ticket, but where the local food committee are satisfied that the particular retailer has nor been able to issue sugar tickets to his customers by the end of the year, the Food Control Committee will be entrusted with the discretion to permit that retailer to sell, on the evidence of the old sugar card, for a short period after the commencement of the scheme, but not in any case exceeding a fortnight.

We have had, in the course of our work for the past five or six months, the painful duty of taking proceedings against those who, instead of acting and co-operating with us, have sought to evade the Orders and purposes of the Ministry, and every week now brings a harvest of convictions for the more obvious breaches of the Food Controller's Orders. A section of the Ministry has been formed to deal with the more subtle evasions which it has been discovered are being resorted to. I have had to answer questions in this House frequently in very general terms to the effect that we have no knowledge of such-and-such a case. I wish that hon. Members. who must receive from their constituents many instances of particular cases of evasion, would supply those particulars to us in confidence and action will be taken to prevent any spread of these breaches of the Orders. There has been of late a tendency to mete out more adequate punishment to offenders. In some cases imprisonment has been imposed. I am told that in Lincolnshire fines of £12,400 upon four offenders for breaches of the Potato Order has secured a reduction in the local rates. For breaches of other Orders during November and December a score of fines have been imposed of £50 and upwards. There has been a number of convictions under the Food Hoarding Order, but there has been a large number of complaints which, on investigation, have been shown to be quite without foundation.

Finally, I would say that this food question is a question for all of us. The Ministry, by its action, can be helpful in the prosecution of the War, and in helping this country to victory. It may, indeed, be a deciding factor in the ultimate decision. I do not want to see any improve- ment in our system of a process of imprisonment. I wish to repeat appeals previously made for the co-operation of all sections of the community. It would be an enormous task—indeed, I believe an impossible task—to try to set up now separate or rival agencies of supplies to those now existing. We cannot get the best from those agencies of supply unless the persons in those agencies take the best view of what now is the national situation. Cooperation and not conflict is what every section of the country now should offer to its country. We may say the worst we like of the Germans, but I think that the German enemy is less detestable than that type of Briton who now, while the country is at war with Germany, will not play fair with his fellow countrymen and is seeking to use any means at his disposal merely to secure private profit at the public expense. Food providing now, in all its branches, is not merely a question of keeping a shop or of selling food to individual applicants; it is, indeed, a great national service. It depends upon how these individual services acquit themselves. The Ministry is entitled to all the assistance which every section of the country can give, because even in addition to, or contrasted with any of the uniformed services which are now at the disposal of the State, a deciding element in the chances of victory for this country rests at the feet of the Food Ministry. It is for assistance and co-operation that I now plead.

I am sure the House has listened with the greatest interest to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary and also to the speech of the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division (Mr. Anderson). I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary one or two questions. One of them is in regard to the importation of dried fruits. We were told some time ago that an arrangement had been come to with Greece and that a certain amount of dried fruits had been bought, but we have not heard anything since then, and the fact that Christmas is here and there has been no importation of dried fruits is a matter of deep regret. With regard to the sugar cards, they should have been framed very differently from what they are. They should have spaces something like the insurance cards, so that a person on getting his weekly supplies should have the card stamped showing that the particular person bad got all the sugar to which he was entitled for that week. As it is now, per- sons can bring a card every day, and the shopkeeper or co-operative store has only the books to show whether that person has had a supply or not.

I congratulate the Food Controller and his Department generally on the work they have done for the nation. Shortly after war was declared it become necessary to control food, and Lord Devonport was appointed, and did very well in the short time that he presided over that vast but troublesome Department. I was very sorry when he left. He laid this nation under a deep debt of obligation. He stopped inter-buying in all the provision and other markets, and he expelled the outside food gamblers, and laid wide the foundations for the good work that Lord Rhondda is now doing. The principle that he went upon was to prevent cornering, and he did it in a very able way until now profiteering is practically impossible. The Food Control Department says there is no evidence of profiteering by the retail traders—and, indeed, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Clynes) on Thursday said that profiteering in butter and other necessaries of life was now impossible. I am delighted to hear that we are to have more tea, and I believe there was more tea offered last week on the Mincing Lane market than has been the case for some weeks, or probably months. I have good reason to believe that the supply of sugar will be fairly adequate to the requirements, of the nation, and I hope, what with the victories in East Africa and not having to use so many ships to transport stuff to Russia, we shall have a little more shipping room in order to import foodstuffs from all over the world. I am glad to notice that the Government has made arrangements for the supply of more margarine, which will be very necessary for us in the future as the supply of butter will be a vanishing quantity altogether. If all persons only get what is necessary and none of them try to hoard there will be, in a limited extent I admit, enough to go round. How we may secure this is what has been troubling the Food Department all this time, but I hope it will trouble them no longer. Some say compulsory rationing, but I think that would be a very serious and a very drastic step to take. It would provide no more food. It would be very costly. It would need a great army of officials, and it would be most difficult to carry out. For instance, it would be very difficult to ration farmers and food growers and many other people up and down the United Kingdom, and it would be very difficult to ration every article, for there are something like 500 different articles of food used pretty nearly every day, and I am delighted to think that at present the Food Controller has not got this in his mind.

9.0 P.M.

I am quite in accord with the hon. Member (Mr. Anderson) with regard to queues. These must at any cost be abolished, and I quite believe that they can be. They are brought about by a system of multiple shops which advertise that at certain times they will be able to supply a certain amount of margarine, or whatever the article is in which they deal. They do it for an advertisment, and it may advertise them, but it produces a very undesirable effect when these poor people stand for hours. The abolition of queues can be brought about by the equal distribution of food, and it can be done, I believe, with very little difficulty. Lord Devonport made one great mistake, and that was the abolition of conditions with regard to the sale of various articles of food; and if the Food Controller will relax that Order, allowing retailers to supply articles which are scarce with the sugar ticket, we shall find that everyone will get a supply, though, perhaps, a small amount, of the necessities of life. I heartily endorse the action they are taking in Birmingham, which is something on these lines, and I hope the Birmingham venture will prove very successful and will be gradually applied to the whole of the United Kingdom. It will mean very little extra expense, it will be very efficient and will need no more officials, and if Lord Rhondda would settle the conditions under which these necessary food-stuffs should be sold it would guarantee that everyone would get an equal supply, and that, I believe, would abolish queues altogether. I remember Lord Devonport addressing a meeting of a large number of Members of this House and stating that one of the things he was going to do was to abolish these conditions of sale, and all the Members were very delighted. But it was the gravest mistake he ever made, and we now find that the Food Controller is imposing a condition on the sale of sugar by issuing tickets to enable people to get sugar. That seems to me to be a most reasonable thing, and if this can be extended in a small degree to butter, margarine, tea, and one or two other articles of a like nature, I feel sure that the Birmingham experiment will be thoroughly successful and that it can be extended to the rest of the United Kingdom.

Many traders, notably co-operative stores, have been doing the best they could under these trying circumstances. I see that the case of a co-operative store, whose name I cannot pronounce because it has no vowels in it, came up at Swansea last week, and I have a full account of it. They refused to supply tea, sugar, and one or two other articles to any person who had not registered for sugar with them, and for this very heinous offence they were fined £100 and costs. It seems to me that the co-operative store, together with a good many retail traders, were adopting a very sensible attitude, and ensuring that all their customers were getting a fair, a reasonable, and not a greedy supply of the necessities of life. The hon. Member (Mr. Clynes) has appealed to the nation to do their best to assist the Food Controller in his operations. The hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson) has assured the House that the co-operators up and down the Kingdom will do their best, and as a retailer I can say the same with regard to the retail and wholesale traders. The Food Controller has only to say what he wants and how he wants us to do it, and he will have the hearty co-operation of all the traders in the Kingdom, both wholesale and retail.

I desire to claim the indulgence of the House on this occasion. I feel that this question of food supplies is the greatest question that we have to solve, and all the powers of the sea, of the military, and of our production ought to be used, and I believe can be used, to help us in our dilemma. Just as an army moves on its stomach, so a nation moves on its stomach, and I believe that the most dangerous enemy we have in our midst at the present time is the food profiteer. I have held a responsible position for a number of years, and I know what it means to have control of numbers of men. I have never feared to tackle problems, but I think if I were asked to take the place of the Food Controller I should hesitate. Even his bitterest critics would hesitate. My Friend (Mr. Clynes), who represents the Food Controller in this House, has at least my confidence. I know he has a very grave duty to perform, and I wish him every possible success. I realise that he has come into a very grave legacy, the legacy of profiteering, which has gone on from year to year since the War began. Profiteering commenced almost as soon as the War. The great food monopolists of meat, corn, and flour immediately gave orders to their customers, the retailers, that certain prices had to be charged, even when there was no fear of the U boat menace, and this has gone on. The Food Controller did not assume office until these profiteers bad very well entrenched themselves, and they are under such cover to-day that I agree with my hon. Friend who has just spoken that it would be almost impossible to discover technically a profiteer. But profiteers do exist. We must realise that at the present moment there is no control over the farmer, no real control over the monopolists in meat, who even at the present moment are able to determine their prices, and the retailers of the meat and the retailers of food are able to evade them. I consider that the setting up of local committees is one of the best means that can be applied. The farmer is fairly scot-free. You have not power over him. I believe the Food Controller would be helped materially if cattle were nationalised. I say that advisedly. I know it may seem an outrage to suggest that we should nationalise cattle, but we have nationalised labour, and we have nationalised our soldiers.

It seems to me that the farmer is the biggest culprit. When the War commenced he was quite satisfied in many places to accept 30s. a quarter for wheat. When food prices were raised he followed the food prices, when he himself made the cost high by selling at high values. Even the vermin, the rabbits, which are not fed on milk or on cereals, but which are most independent, for they get their own living, were selling before the War for 8d. each, or for 1s. 6d. a brace, and they are now selling for 5s. a pair, and in some cases for 2s. 10d. each. That certainly does away with the argument that certain economic forces control and determine prices. I want to give every possible power to Lord Rhondda. He has done very valuable work. He is an experienced man, who ought to know his business, and I maintain that a man who knows his business as well as Lord Rhondda ought to have the fullest possible powers given to him to licence every farmer, every auctioneer, every cattle dealer, and every wholesaler and retailer of food supplies, and that he ought to be in a position to punish them severely. The hon. Gentleman said he did not want to use the prison, but I think the time has come when we ought to use even more than the prison. We could much more afford to lose all the profiteers than we could afford to lose one good soldier, and we could much more afford to have all of them shot than lose a company of good soldiers.

I want to look at the matter very seriously. I do not believe the Germans are going to beat us. The only fear I have of being beaten is that the profiteer will beat us. I want to assure the Food Department that some of us will do our very best to help the Department. There should be registration and licence, and the licences should be taken away from those who prostitute the power given to them. I am ashamed of my fellow countrymen at this time, because the farming class has had more privileges vouchsafed to it than any other class, and I am ashamed to feel that they exercise every grasping proclivity. I want not merely the power of the Food Controller to extend to the wholesaler and the retailer, but I want him to get right down to the root of things, to the man who sells the cattle. You will remember when the notion got abroad that certain restrictions would be placed upon the farming class and the cattle trade, that immediately milch cows and young beasts were forced upon the markets. I think it is quite true to say that four or even five months' supplies were thrown upon the markets in three months. That is not playing the game fairly to the man in the trenches, and it is not playing the game fairly to ourselves. I know the food supply is a paramount one, and I do not want to utter a word that would cause any more discontent with the food supply; but I do urge that long before the War 50 per cent. of our working classes were pretty well rationed, and although any development of rationing would mean no end of officials, even that would be in itself a good thing, because at the present moment the sources of discontent among the poor arises from the fact that they feel that the country do not recognise their interests, and that a certain portion of society are gobbling up supplies. That must be met by this House.

I do not say that the House has all the power. This House is only the reflection of public opinion; but I do think that if this House had courage, and took its courage in its hands and gave the lead, demanding that neither duke nor docker should have any greater luxury than the other, that would give to our people a confidence which they do not possess at the present moment. The cost of food is very heavy. Herrings which formerly were three for 2d. are now 4d. and 5d. each. Eggs, even "election" eggs, can hardly be purchased for 4d., and at the present moment the price is 4½d. and 5½d. Cheap meat that used to cost 8d. per lb. now goes up to 2s. and 2s. 4d. a lb. Then there is milk. All these things count. I hope that the House will give a lead to the country which will restore confidence to the people in the slums, as well as give confidence to the men in the trenches. Take the case of family expenditure. Sir Arthur Yapp spoke of 25s. per family, and said that even with that amount there should be economy. I do not know whether he is a humourist. I should love to see Sir Arthur Yapp maintain a wife and four children and himself, or even the wife and four children, on 25s. It is because of the travesty of argument and logic that I sincerely wish that Sir Arthur Yapp would try to understand the real position. I do not believe that Sir Arthur Yapp could maintain a family of four on 50s. a week. He could hardly get two dinners at the Ritz under 50s. People are thinking these things out, and wanting that we shall at least, even if we have a sense of humour, try to realise all the tragedy that this War means to those who toil.

Then there is the other point. I do not believe that our Navy has rendered all its possible service. I speak as an old naval man. I speak with great reverence of the sea and the men who go down to the sea in ships. Our policy, from my own viewpoint, has been entirely wrong, because while we may have a Grand Fleet, we have on two occasions at least witnessed our Grand Fleet tied up for special purposes, not being able to meet the enemy, and we have had convoys of great importance to our food supplies sunk. I regard with horror the fact that there was not co-ordination between the Admiralty, the Shipping Controller, and the Transport Committee. Up to now there is no particular body actually responsible for the convoying of our mercantile fleet into our harbours. I am very glad to know that, as the result of a conference, that is likely to be remedied. There must be co-ordination. There must be no conflict. We have had ships sent into ports when the captain had not the slightest idea why he was sent there, and then sent away to other ports, and ships have been loaded and then unloaded. One gentleman from the Admiralty and another from the War Office have given different orders, and then the two gentlemen have conbined their intellects, and they have restored the cargoes to the vessels. I am not saying that exists at the present moment, because we have raised these questions. I believe that when this War is ended, whatever may be said of the efficeincy of the submarine, the destroyer will come out on top as one of the best machines which we have invented. But the Admiralty have not realised the importance of the destroyer. I believe that if we had taken the same initiative as the Germans who destroyed our latest convoy, our Grand Fleet would have rendered greater service. I say that with all sense of responsibility, because I know that the man who is on the destroyer is taking practically all the risks for which even the most adventurous may ask. It is important to realise what it means, because one of the chief dangers at the present moment is taking the pluck out of our mercantile marine. I do not believe that it ever will be taken out, but it may be weakened, and, after all, a man in the mercantile marine who offers his life at least demands of his country and its Navy every possible protection, and he takes the rest of his chances. Vessels have been sunk that ought not to have been sunk, and vessels have been neglected that ought not to have been neglected. I am not saying this in any spirit of asperity. I know the man-of-war's-man. But at least our Navy must understand that the mercantile is the greater fleet, if I may call it so. A man who is stoker in a ship's hold, a man who is a sailor, who-faces the ordinary difficulties of the sea, is at least one of our heroes. When he faces that sea against mines and submarines and enemy ships, then he is still a greater hero. But we are dependent upon him for our very lives. The men in the trenches depend upon the stoker and the sailor for their very lives, and everyone should realise what it all means.

Now, with regard to starvation. There is serious starvation in this country. Many of our men who are earning 50s. a week are unable to obtain two meat meals a week, if they look after the children—and the children are the great asset of the nation—and in most cases it is because of the lack of food. There is great danger in these queues. Every man who has been a husband and a father will understand what it means to women to stand for so many hours. I believe that the Food Controller does realise this, but we want more opinion behind him. We want the local committees, the municipal authorities, the retailers, the co-operators, and the trade unionists to realise this, and to take their share of responsibility. I believe that if the House gives a lead to the demand that the distribution shall be of a character to fit the requirements, there will be a response that will be of importance to the country. At the present moment there is a dull, niggardly, dog-in-the-manger policy with those who are holding up food. That is a condemnation one has to place on one's own countrymen, and it is one to which there must be an answer. We form queues.

We formed other queues—queues that came out of the slums, queues that came out of the mean streets, queues that came out of the factories, queues that massed themselves into battalions, divisions, armies. Those queues at least joyfully accepted their difficulties and their hardships, and, therefore, I want the House to regard the fact that our men in the trenches, while not fearing danger from Germans—their hearts are too much in the right place for that—yet when they realise that their womenfolk, with their paltry allowance, have to stand in queues for hours to get a small supply of food, and not always obtaining it, that takes the courage out of them that ought not to be taken out of them. I do not want to see the steel taken out of our men in the trenches; I do not want to see discontent taking the place of enthusiasm in them, and if there be one Department greater than another concerned in seeing that these matters receive the full and the most effectual attention, it is the Department of the Food Control. These men went out with enthusiasm to force the barbed wire fences, to face the overwhelming machinegun fire and heavy gunfire of the enemy, and I believe that brave and daring spirit is still existing. But to me it would seem to be terrible that our brave men in France, while fighting for their country, should have in their minds the fact that their wives and families at home have to form these queues, for the sake of getting their paltry allowance of food, which even then is not always obtainable. I have been considered a rebel all my life. Yet I love my country, and I want hon. Members who occupy these benches to understand that discontent is growing, and that it is serious. It is a discontent which does not merely affect the workers and the poor of our towns, but it affects the men in the trenches. I want the House to back up with all their power of enthusiasm the efforts of the Food Controller, so that at least our men may understand that their wives and families, are not being robbed. I say, with all frankness, if I had my way I would put under military discipline every factor of food provision. I would put under naval discipline all those who have charge of ships. I submit that the labourer should be given a freer hand with the Food Controller, who should consult the workers. I do not wish to see a convulsion of feeling as between the labourers and employers. I wish them to get through this War without any such manifestation, for we shall have plenty of time after the War to fight out questions of capital and labour.

It is for this Government, and it is for this House—for, after all, this House is the Government, and if the House wills and determines it has the power—to see that there shall be equation and fair play without distinction, or privilege, or favouritism, in the food supply. Even if it went the length of conscripting food as well as conscripting wealth, it would do right. One finds the spirit of camaraderie between our officers and men, and may I ask that we should try to realise that same camaraderie in regard to our workers, who have done their bit. The workers form 90 to 95 per cent. of the fighting forces, and one should at least see that the profiteers shall not be so dastardly or so rapacious, and where they deserve it, I ask this House that they shall be treated with more severity. Whenever the Food Controller asks for greater powers, however strong and drastic they may be, see that he receives those powers. I often feel that some of these men who are profiteers ought to be in gaol. When we see the misery and starvation of our people, and when we realise that we have to build in the future with the help of the children of to-day, it is our duty to do our best for them, if only for the burdens they have to bear, and if only for the sacrifices which they have made for our country.

I venture to offer my hearty congratulations to the hon. Member for Salford on the very excellent maiden speech he has made. As an old friend of the Member for Salford, I welcome him on his introduction to the House, and I think he will find from the reception given to his speech to-night that he has many friends in all quarters of this House. Those, I think, who have listened to him recognise in his presence a new and vital force in our Debate, and I think it may be said, in all truth and sincerity, that his vast experience, his broad democratic sympathy, and his penetrating mind will ensure to him the ear of the House whenever he finds it possible to be here, and to take part in our Debates.

I ask the House to bear with me for a few moments, while I pass from the considerations which have occupied the attentions of the House in regard to the work of the Food Controller, in order to direct his attention and of those who now represent him on the Treasury Bench, to one or two matters of definite importance to Ireland as a whole, and especially to the district I represent, with the needs of which I am most intimately associated. I wish to draw the attention of the Food Controller to his action in dealing with the distribution of food in Ireland. It is a new thing to have the distribution of food controlled and taken out of the hands of the merchants and traders who have heretofore controlled distribution, for I view as a grave fault the inequality in the distribution of food, and especially of flour, prevailing in Ireland at the present time. But I do it in no spirit of censoriousness towards the Food Controller or towards the very able representative who speaks for the Food Controller in this House. I am sure the Food Controller and his representative in this House will find that it is to their interest to bring to their notice cases of glaring inequality in the distribution of food.

In regard to the supplies of flour to Ireland, there is grave cause for complaint at the present time in that country, and I want to call especially the attention of the representative of the Food Controller to some typical cases which have come under my observation. On Thursday of last week a deputation of the representatives of the Food Control Committee in Dublin waited upon the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture in Ireland and drew his attention to the failure of flour in Dublin. The Lord Mayor of Dublin, in introducing that deputation, said there were agents going through the county of Dublin buying up all the wheat and giving considerably more for it than the controlled price, 41s. 4½d., while big institutions like the Richmond Asylum and the Port Rane Asylum wanted 1,000 barrels a week to supplement their supplies, but could only get a very little, leaving their patients open to be hungered if they did not get flour. I go from that to other cases which have been brought specially to my knowledge. Here is a resolution passed by the board of guardians of Sligo, as follows: immediate needs of the people, but to defects of distribution. I bring this under the notice of the Food Controller, in order that this very glaring deficiency may be remedied in the supply, and so that the Food Controller will take means, either by himself or through the Committee which acts with him in Ireland, to se ethat a reasonable supply of this absolute necessity of life is allowed to be sent to these people of the West of Ireland. Two practical suggestions have been made to me. One is that the Food Controller might withdraw the Order prohibiting the exportation of flour from Glasgow, and another is that, in view of the present shortage, the Government might at the present moment allow from Government stocks a supply of American and Canadian flour for the relief of those districts which need it. What I mean is this, that the Food Controller should release at the price paid to the ordinary dealer a supply of flour from Government stocks which will keep these districts in their proper supply. I think it is possible for the Food Controller, by the exercise of whatever means are open to him, to secure that the measures taken by him for distribution will not break down, and that these people will not be left without their supplies. I could make reference to other matters—the supply of sugar and other commodities—but as this is the most pressing thing which has been brought to my notice 1 especially ask the Food Controller to take steps, and to take immediate steps, to remedy this grievance. I have taken several opportunities since this correspondence has reached me to interview the Parliamentary Secretary of the Food Controller and the head of the Wheat Commission, and I think both those gentlemen recognise that there is here not an imaginary but a very real grievance, and I think at this season of the year 1 am not making an unreasonable request when I ask the Food Controller to act promptly, and to do something at once which will remove this cause of complaint.

There is just one other matter to which I have to call attention, and that is the question of the potato supply. On the 23rd February, in this House, the Prime Minister gave a guarantee to the growers of potatoes of a minimum price of £6 per ton. So far as Ireland is concerned, there is a very great grievance in the way in which this Order is carried out. The Prime Minister undoubtedly meant that every individual grower and producer who brought the potatoes to market could depend upon getting £6 per ton. The Food Controller, giving, to my mind, a very narrow and unjust interpretation to this pledge of the Prime Minister, has restricted the guarantee of the minimum price to those cases in which the farmer brings to the market potatoes in quantities of at least 4 tons. If the House will listen to the simple statement of the Prime Minister on the 23rd February they will realise that that is not what he meant. He said: least, the small growers and sellers of small lots should be allowed to combine, and if they pool their little quantities and bring into the market the 4 tons that they should be allowed to have this bonus, or guarantee, of £6. If that is done by the Food Controller—I know that all he wants is to have his eyes opened to the importance of the position—he will remove a grievance which is very much felt in Ireland. An appeal of a more stringent character is being made to the farmers and growers of potatoes in Ireland for the coming harvest, even more stringent than was made last year. It is a very bad thing to say to these people, who have been asked to grow more in the coming season than they grew last season, that they cannot be certain of getting the guarantee which the Prime Minister publicly gave in the House of Commons. I would respectfully point out to the Food Controller and to the Government that unless the Food Controller interprets the guarantee of the Government liberally his action in depriving growers of this guarantee of £6 per ton cannot have anything else but a disquieting effect in Ireland at the present moment—a seriously detrimental effect on the increase of tillage in the coming season

I am sure the hon. Member who has just sat down will not wish me to follow him into the subject he has so usefully placed before the House. He is an expert in these matters. I am sure he will also agree that, taking Ireland as a whole, it has felt the hardships of the present situation far less than any other part of the United Kingdom?

Notwithstanding that the hon. Member fails to admit it, I am afraid that I mut proceed on that hypothesis. I turn from the particular question dealt with to the more general and grave matters with which we have been concerning ourselves to-night. At the outset I hardly think it necessary to say that I shall disclaim any intention whatsoever in any criticisms I may offer upon the speeches which have been delivered to-night—any desire at all to embarrass the Food Controller and his representatives in this House in any way in the performance of their most ungrateful and most difficult task. Every Member of this House sympathised with the Par- liamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food during the statement he submitted to the House this evening. When, however, I say this, I am afraid I must add that the statement left upon my mind a definite feeling of considerable discouragement. I was left with the feeling that the situation, even at this stage, when conditions are really becoming dangerous, has not yet been properly gripped. No one who listened to the powerful speech of the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division, with a great deal of which I am sure most of us were in great sympathy, could fail to feel that half measures at the stage we have now reached in our national condition are of no use, and that the situation must be dealt with comprehensively and as a whole.

We were told by the Parliamentary Secretary that the Ministry of Food—what, I am quite sure, is the case—are doing their best, and that they are dealing with the symptoms as they arise. That, to my mind, was the most disquieting part of his speech. I feel that we are now beyond dealing with symptoms: we have to adopt, radical measures. We have to discover a cure for a disease of which we are noticing the symptoms. The Parliamentary Secretary told us that he was not there to defend the position of the Ministry of Food in 1915–6. I think it is fair to argue, then, that he is prepared to defend the situation that has arisen in 1917. In May of this year—may I recall it to the House? —I was getting anxious about the food position. Before the encouraging statements which were made in June, or late in May, I was exceedingly anxious, and asked a question of the then Food Minister to the following effect: That was in May. We are still, awaiting information as to any comprehensive scheme for the compulsory rationing of food and for the machinery which it is proposed to apply to it, if it is necessary to put it into operation. I frankly admit that only the Food Controller's Department is in a position to say whether compulsory rationing is necessary or not. This House, at present, can only judge from symptoms which it sees before it as to whether it is likely or probable that such a course is necessary. But the conditions the existence of which we have seen lately—conditions which I, for one, think are extremely dangerous—point to the necessity for complete change in the method of food distribution among the working classes. It may or may not be a question whether that distribution has to be carried to the point of compulsory rationing. It must be obvious to the meanest intelligence that if we have not come to that point yet, we are on the verge of it, and if a different distribution cannot be made it must be agreed by everyone that compulsory rationing is necessary in the national interest, because the last thing we can afford to allow to continue during this War is any development of class hatred or class suspicion. There has been too much of it of late, and it is the right thing that we should diminish every possible cause of it as far as we can. If we have to submit to compulsory rationing, it is our duty in this House both to insist on its being imposed and to cheerfully accept the necessity. But the responsibility of deciding whether we have now come to the stage in which it is necessary rests on the Food Controller, who, with his knowledge of the stocks available, should be able to pronounce an authoritative opinion on the subject.

10.0 P.M.

I have said that I wish to avoid embarrassing the Government. But one cannot usefully abstain from a certain amount of criticism which cannot possibly be palatable to the Food Ministry; and the criticisms I have to make, in so far as the information which reaches an ordinary Member goes, is that there is too much cry and a great deal too little wool. Why in this Department is it thought necessary to be always publishing in the Press that they are considering quite ordinary things? They should either do them or not do them. Why issue the constant statement that the Ministry of Food is considering this, that, or the other? It only leads to public uncertainty, and, at the present time, the public does not know where it stands in regard to the matter of food. They are, in fact, so bewildered that they do not even take the trouble to obey directions on matters which the Food Ministry desire they should understand and act upon. That is especially evident in connection with the sugar rationing scheme. It has not been understood or clearly expressed, and there are going to be great difficulties in carrying it out. No doubt in the end we shall arrive at something which will carry out the views of the Ministry of Food, but it cannot be said that any large number of the population really understand or are ready to submit to what has been imposed upon them. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food recounted the various activities in which his Department is at present engaged, but the enunciation of those activities and the manner in which they are being carried out did not impress me with any confidence, especially when I found that his remedy for the existing situation was to set up a new Committee. We want something far different than this multiplication of Committees. The impression is that the Ministry have succeeded in devising a whole number of watertight compartments whereas what was wanted was that the situation should be surveyed and grappled with as a whole. It is especially necessary that in the case of food this should be done because of the many substitutes there are in rations. It is very difficult to say whether a particular branch of the Ministry shall deal with potatoes or with meat, or with bread and flour, or with groceries, and that is one reason for the present difficulties. A review of the food position should enable it to be dealt with as a whole, and when that has been done it will be possible to introduce far greater economies in the consumption of food than we are witnessing to-day. If we have arrived at the point when we cannot avoid these food queues and if we have to seek either to diminish or to abolish them altogether by asking tradesmen and local food committees to deal with them on what is really a compulsory basis, because that is meant by asking local tradesmen to apportion their supplies so as to see that no customer shall have more than his share, why should not the Ministry of Food do compulsorily directly what it is thus endeavouring to do indirectly?

I am not suggesting that the Ministry of Food should set up the wholly new machinery to enforce regulations of this character. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Attercliffe—and I understand from the Parliamentary Secretary that the Department is doing the same thing—that the proper course to follow is to see, as far as possible, that the existing channels of distribution and the services of the local food committees are taken advantage of. But it is not sufficient to allow these people, however well meaning, to do this in a "go-as-you-please" spirit; they need to be advised and controlled. I personally want to know whether the Ministry of Food has in hand any machinery to enable these things to be done. If it has well and good, and if the necessity comes upon us suddenly it may be possible to get through without compulsory rationing. But if a sudden compulsory rationing is going to be imposed on the community and if the people themselves do not understand what is going to be done, and if those who are to carry out the rules and regulations have not in advance acquainted themselves with the different problems and the manner in which it is proposed to deal with them, then I am certain that in the country districts and small towns there will be such a breakdown of machinery that this country will be heading for a disaster such as we have never yet had to face in the conduct of the War.

No one can say that the sugar rationing scheme as presented to the country up till now has impressed the people with an idea that it is going to be entirely successful. It is evident on the face of it that it will not. What I wish to impress on the House is this, that while in the case of sugar it is possible we may get along with an imperfect system, because people can be out of sugar and not suffer any very serious harm, the same thing will not occur when we have to deal with the real staples of our food supply, especially flour and bread. People can if they choose carry small quantities of sugar with them to consume in friends' houses; there is no difficulty about that, but there will be considerable difficulty when, let us say, a son has to travel to visit his father, and has to have some meals in his father's house. He might bring with him sugar, but he could not carry with him flour and meat. These are contingencies which do occur daily in the life of the population, and they will have to be provided for. I hope that some system will be thought out in advance which will cope with these necessary contingencies, as otherwise there will be a lot of trouble. I may admit that the system being tried in Birmingham, by which every consumer is to be rationed and to be assigned to a particular retailer, may be all right so long as the population is more or less stationary. It will probably cover nine-tenths of the cases and work fairly well, but there will be the remaining tenth still to be dealt with in some way or another. The Food Controller has already found the necessity in the case of the sugar-rationing scheme, and he will feel it still more when he comes to deal with the more staple articles of food. I do not wish to suggest to the House any particular scheme. I have already sent some suggestions to the Food Controller, but I do want to suggest to the House the necessity for some scheme being adopted which will deal with these difficulties and make it easier for the population to submit to the restrictions which have to be imposed upon them. In the course of his speech the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food drew attention to the comparative insignificance of the hardship which the civil population of this country is asked to undergo as compared with the hardships which our gallant troops at the front have daily to endure. I submit that that really has nothing to do with the question we are considering to-night. What we are considering: to-night is: In what way can an organisation be established which will give the best results to the civil population of this country? It is not enough to excuse a faulty organisation by the argument that our troops are having a worse time. They may be, but the House, I submit, has not yet been satisfied that the best organisation has been established, and that the best use is being made of the stocks of the various commodities which the population requires. It is no argument to say that the troops are having a worse time. What we are complaining of to-day is that on the evidence before us there has been a lamentable failure to bring about an equal distribution of food, and it is a feeling that the distribution is unequal that is engendering that class-hatred which I so deeply deplore, and which I regret to say has been to a considerable extent fanned by the incautious speeches of some of the members of the Food Controller's Department.

Again, the experiments of the Ministry of Food in the direction of voluntary rationing have not inspired me with confidence. I had the curiosity to compare the figures of the ration allowed to a man serving on the lines of communication in France—where the most arduous military tasks are not ordinarily engaged in—with the ration allotted to the agricultural labourer, or the man engaged here in the severest form of industrial work, and I find that roughly the ration of the soldier in France on more or less light duties works out at 3 lbs. a day, and of the ration commodities a soldier receives per week 15 lbs., whereas the civilian engaged on the hardest work receives per week 11 lbs. 14 ozs. The soldier, in addition to the commodity to which the figure I have given refers, receives 10 ozs. of vegetables and 3 ozs. of jam. As fish and fruit are not really available in any large quantity for the masses of the population, it comes to this: that if the civilian is to get meals daily at all comparable to those consumed by the soldier he has to consume at least 20 ozs. of vegetables, that is 1¼lbs. a day. I do not think that fact is generally recognised, and I am not at all sure that when we come to the months of February, March, and April that quantity of vegetables is the least likely to be forthcoming. Whatever may be the number of calories contained in the staple articles of diet allowed, there is no doubt that considerable sections of this community will daily feel hungry. That again is going to be a cause of trouble. I am not sure that the voluntary rations have been considered from that point of view, and I hope the Food Controller will consider that point of view, because from the experience I have had in these matters many years ago, I know that the weight consumed per diem is almost as important in its effect on the spirit of the individuals who consume the ration as the number of calories contained in the article consumed. I hope attention will be given to that subject, and that the needs of those engaged both in hard bodily and hard mental work will be considered from that point of view.

I am sure that the solution of the distribution problem, as I have said, does rest with entrusting larger powers to the local authorities, distributers, and retailers, calling on their patriotism, and in helping them in every possible way. I hope at an early opportunity the Food Ministry will take the public and the House into their confidence and tell us exactly what is proposed, exactly what is necessary, exactly how they propose to carry it out, and that they will show themselves sympathetic to suggestions and criticisms. In this way I believe it will, be possible, with good will on all sides, to evolve some system that will work. It may be that the systems that are being evolved in the recesses of the Ministry of Food will work. Of that I have no knowledge, but I am really convinced that unless the public is consulted and is allowed to know exactly what it is asked to do there are bound to be many small imperfections in the system proposed and that until it has been decided by every person applying their mind to it and seeing where the shoe will pinch the ideal system cannot be evolved. I conclude, a I began, by saying that I make these suggestions with a desire to help, and with absolutely no desire to embarrass the Food Ministry in any possible way, because I do realise from past experience the great difficulties of the task which they have patriotically undertaken.

I desire to speak on two subjects—the meat supply and the milk, supply. I may say at once that I recognise that the difficulty as far as meat is concerned has been due mainly to the lack of foreign importation; but if we once grant that, I am going to suggest to the House that the present position of shortage both in the meat supply and the milk supply is due in great measure to the ill-devised actions of the Food Controller. If the House carries its mind back a short time it will remember that Lord Rhondda—in June last, I think it was—fixed the price of fat cattle at 72s. a cwt. In fixing that price he paid not the slightest attention to the prices that had been given for store stock in the earlier spring, and the result of fixing that price of 72s. was that all those graziers and farmers who had bought their store stock suffered serious losses. I, for my part, see no reason why they should be specially picked out to bear the burdens of the country. But the Food Controller went further. He then said, you, the farmers, shall sell during the months of July and August your store stock at 72s. Then the longer you keep it the less price you shall get for it, and during the months of September and October—I am not quite certain about the exact dates, but for the two months— the price shall be reduced to 67s. After that period of time the price shall actually go down to 60s. per cwt. The veriest child could foresee what would happen, and the Food Controller was informed of what would happen. You were faced with this position, that the longer you kept your manufactured article the lower the price you were going to get for it; the more you spent on it the less you were to receive when the time came to sell it; and not only would the price be less, according to the length of time you have kept it, but the cost would increase as you approached winter. The cost, as everyone knows who is not a townsman, of keeping and feeding a live animal to make it into beef—as soon as you get to October and the grass has gone—doubles or trebles invariably. And yet the Food Controller, who is put here to manage our affairs, acts the same when meat is 60s. instead of 72s. Was it any wonder that what had been foretold did happen? Every farmer who had stock sold it in July and August, and cattle that ought to have been kept till October, November, December, up to now, were all disposed of in an immature state, whereas they might all have made from 5 to 10 stone more of beef.

But it does not end there. What is a man who has sold his cattle going to do? In the ordinary course, having sold his cattle, he shoud have replaced it by further Jean stock, which he would have kept in the winter months and made into beef. But the farmer said, "How can I buy cattle in the ordinary course to make into beef in the winter when I am going to get 60s. a cwt. and lose from £5 to £10 on every animal I feed during winter?" The result was what a child might have foreseen. I challenge the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food to say that he was not warned on all hands. The farmer did not provide himself with lean stock to feed during the winter, and the result is that we have this shortage of cattle. But, again, the matter does not rest there. In addition to the action of the Food Controller we had the action of the War Office. We have been told by pundits and learned men that we had more cattle in the country than ever before. That is true, but they are all young cattle. There were plenty of young cattle, but not plenty of cattle of which to make beef. Another learned man says, contrary to the whole practice of farming, "We do not want fat beef; we want lean beef"; and the War Office comes down and commandeers the lean cattle. They have been, buying skin and bone at the price of beef, and there is no dearer cattle being bought for the Army than is being bought in this country.

What has been the result to the civilian population? Our stock of cattle has been depleted, and we are now suffering from a shortage, which the public are only just now beginning to feel. Yesterday afternoon, in a blinding snowstorm in Sussex, a deputation of butchers from Mid-Sussex described to me the position of affairs, and they told me that, although the price of beef and mutton to the consumers had been fixed—and I will have something to say later about the Food Committees and the divergence of prices they are fixing in different districts—it was left open to the butcher, and the only way he had of replenishing his stock was to go into the market and buy at the best price he could. The result of that has been owing to the shortage of meat supplies to which I have alluded, that the price has been so raised that the butchers could not buy the necessary meat for their customers to sell either at a profit or without a loss. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food to bear in mind that the interests of the consumer are not entirely served by fixing a low price for the consumer, and I believe the Parliamentary Secretary agrees with me that Lord Rhondda does not recognise that, and has fixed the price quite regardless of the cost of production and distribution. These butchers told me yesterday afternoon that they are compelled to close their shops, and they are closing them to-day, because they are poor men. They are country butchers in the county of Sussex, and they told me, and I have no reason to disbelieve them, that individual butchers in many cases are today losing £20 to £30 a week in carrying on their business, and they ask how can they go on? I argued with them, and urged them not to close their shops, and whether they are doing so or not, I do not know. Most hon. Members will have read in the newspapers, in the "Times" particularly, that a new scale is now going to be fixed by the Food Controller to attempt to fix the price of live cattle, and I understand there is a scheme that all live cattle are to be graded into three classes. You are to have first, second, and third grade cattle, according to the quality of the animal, and these grades are to be fixed by the vendor who will be the farmer and by the butcher who will be the producer, and, as the auctioneer is not to have his livelihood taken away, he is to be the arbitrator to fix these prices.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to this matter. I understand they have fixed the grades of these cattle in live animals, and I believe the price fixed for the farmers, the grower of the animals, is to be 74s. for the first grade. I do not know what it is to be for the second or the third grade, but I tell the Parliamentary Secretary that the price is satisfactory to the butchers. I am only speaking for my own county—I do not profess to speak for the rest of the country—and that price is satisfactory to the county to which I belong. I would ask the hon. Member, however, to consider very carefully the principle I have attempted to enunciate, that he has two duties to perform, not only to secure cheap meat or cheap food for the people, but he has to fix such a price as will stimulate production, because if he does not he will fail in the object which he has in view, which is to obtain a larger supply for the country.

I also understand that part of the scheme which the Ministry of Food is advising is to allow either the butcher or the farmer the option of saying if he is not satisfied with the grade in which the particular animal is put to elect to have it priced according to its dead weight when killed at a price which works out at 1s. 2d. per lb. on the whole, including the suet and the offal. I say that again is quite satisfactory to the butcher, but my view is that the price is not satisfactory to the producer, and the hon. Gentleman will find the same result will happen in the supply of cattle as is now happening in the case if pigs. I would ask him whether 1s. 2d. is not too small a price. It is a matter that cannot be settled by the House of Commons, but it is vital to the industries concerned, and I think, if we were to raise it to 1s. 3d., it would probably meet the views of all parties concerned. I do not believe that extra 1d. per lb. could come out of the butcher, and, if my view is correct, it necessarily means that the price will have to be raised to the consumer. I would ask the hon. Gentleman not to act on my suggestion alone, but to take the best advice that he can. I believe that I am giving him useful and practical information which is well worthy of consideration. I mentioned just now the price of pigs. I will tell the House of Commons the position in that matter, because it is an illustration of the harm that is done by the hasty, and, as I consider, the ill-considered action of the Food Controller. I am told on good authority that the price of a live pig, per pound produced, is at least 1s. 2d. The Food Controller has fixed it at 10¾d. It does not need me to point out to any business man that the unfailing result of such a price must be that you will not get pigs. I have looked at the market prices published by the Board of Agriculture—a most useful publication, by the way, which comes out every week—and I read that in one case not a single pig was in the market, whereas at this time last year there were a hundred; and in another case that there were ten pigs in the market whereas last year there were seventy or eighty. I read, only two or three days ago, a letter from a man who farms 800 acres, saying that he was not feeding any more pigs, because it was impossible to do so except at a loss at the present fixed price. That man used to feed from 200 to 300 pigs every year. The Government must realise that the greatest incentive to production is a profitable price for the finished article. I should have thought that the wonderful acreage of potatoes grown this year would have shown them that they have only to guarantee a reasonable price and the farmers will do their best. Yet I have listened to speeches in this House which seem to show me that Members from towns regret that the action of the authorities in fixing the guaranteed price for potatoes has succeeded in the way that it has, a success, mark you, that has been mainly due to the excellent season that we have had.

I turn now to the question of milk shortage. We in this country do not and never have imported milk to any appreciable extent, therefore the whole shortage in milk production is due entirely to the action of the authorities. There is no other reason for it, except possibly—I do not want to be unfair-that we do not import feeding-stuffs—lack of tonnage has had an effect on that importation. I ask the House to consider the course of action pursued by the authorities concerning milk production. I will not, although I could, go back further than last winter. They fixed the price at 1s. 5½d. per gallon for milk during the winter months and at 1s. 2½d. per gallon during the summer months. Leaving out the specially favoured farms, specially favoured districts, because they are no criterion, and you must take the average farms—indeed, you must take farms below the average, so far as facilities for production are concerned—I tell the House that at 1s. 5½d., so far as those farms in any county is concerned, every gallon of milk was produced at a dead loss. If that was so, to take only one result, the people would not go on producing milk. When you remember, further, that, at the same time, the price of beef was left uncontrolled, and that beef was rising in value, it does not need an expert; it only needs an ordinary person; I might even say it needs only a child, to see that men who were engaged in the industry of producing milk and doing it at a loss, when they saw that they could kill their cows and make a profit by it, would at once turn to killing their milk cows and sell them as beef. That has occurred all over the country. In my own county of Sussex one farmer I know well, who had a herd of 400 milk cows, sold the lot. He said, "I am not going to produce milk at a loss. That is not my business. I am here to make money." He sold all his cows, and displaced the whole of his milk supply. If I am right in this—and I defy any hon. Member to get up and say I am wrong—is not the shortage due entirely to the action of the Food Control authorities and nothing else? If that is so I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to be very careful in his consideration of the present crisis. I am told that even at the present prices it is very doubtful whether milk production pays. When I listened to the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division, and when I read in the "Pall Mall Gazette" this evening a discussion on the profiteering on the part of farmers, I felt inclined to ask, "Have you ever heard of a farmer dying a rich man?"

I ask hon. Members, when they attack farmers and the farming industry in this way. to remember that I have shown—and I defy contradiction—that men are going out of the milk industry, and that the whole of the shortage of the milk supply has been due to the action of the Ministry, and to consider very carefully the principle I have already put forward. We are all elected by consumers, and we all have the interests of the consumers at heart, but you are not going to do any good to the consumers of the country by fixing arbitrary prices which have no reference to the cost of production. It may be that the Food Ministry have considered this, and have made mistakes—I feel perfectly certain they now realise that they have made mistakes—but the essential thing is to so fix prices that you stimulate production, to fix the price of milk at such a figure as to make it worth while to produce it, and you will get it. I would also call attention to a thing which has occurred within the last few days to my knowledge. A milk farmer whom I know very well receives an order from his Agricultural Committee to plough up his grass land and grow wheat, and this is not an isolated case. The Food Controller must really decide and let the War Agricultural Committees know whether there is a milk shortage or not. If there is, I take the view that it is absolutely essential that milk should continue to be produced, and if you want to keep a herd of milking cows you must have enough grass to graze them in the summer and you must grow hay. So far as this farmer is concerned, it would be financially to his interest to sell his cows at the enormous prices they are now making, but in the interests of the country the plan of slaughtering herds has been disastrous, and I ask the hon. Gentleman to see that those contradictory orders are not made. This is a matter of vital importance in the interests of the public and also of the farmer. I have pointed out the difficulty the butchers are in and I would ask the hon. Gentleman to expedite the bringing in of his new scheme, so that the butchers can carry on instead of having to shut up their shops.

I have been struck in this Debate with the fact that, whilst some of the speakers are of opinion that this food difficulty is one of supply, others, and the majority, are of opinion that it is a question of distribution. I believe that it is a question of equitable distribution as far as the immediate need is concerned. I am surprised that there has not been a full quota of Labour members here, because this is a question that affects the working classes more than any other section. I do not often speak, for a very good reason. I am not such a hyprocrite as to say it is because there are others who know more about the subjects than I do. I do not speak because I have not yet overcome that nervousness that takes possession of a new Member, though I have been here for several years. I feel compelled to speak to-night because this is a subject about which I venture respectfully to say that, so far as distribution is concerned, I know something. For forty years, all my life, I have been in the business of food distribution, and I want to make a few observations respecting the objects which the hon. Member (Mr. Clynes) says they have in view in connection with the Food Ministry. Criticisms I am about to pass upon the Food Ministry are in the nature of helpful criticisms rather than carping criticisms. I know the difficulties that face the Food Controller. I know the difficulties of the different interests, of the co-operative societies, the multiple shops, the old-fashioned grocers' shops, and the small shops. I have heard co-operative society representatives say that the Food Ministry are favouring the private trader. I have heard the private trader say that the Food Ministry is favouring the cooperative societies, and I have heard the representatives of the multiple shops say that there is a leaning towards the other two, and that the multiple shop is being left between them. I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to the Food Ministry to say that the objects they had in view were to secure food, to endeavour to distribute the available supplies, and to distribute it at such a price to the consumer that apart from the fair expenses incurred no dealer in food, either wholesaler or retailer, should make a profit. Food supplies are obtainable from two sources. One source is home-grown and the other is imported. I should like to review, briefly, the methods adopted by the Ministry of Food in relation to these two sources. Take home-grown produce. The Dutch manufacturer of cheese is allowed 160s. a cwt. for the cheese that he imports into this country, whilst the English farmer is only allowed 142s. a cwt., or 2d. a lb. less than the Dutch importer. In regard to margarine, the Dutch manufacturer is allowed 11¼d. per lb., whilst the English manufacturer is only allowed 10d. a lb. That is on a par with the statements of the hon. Member (Mr. Cautley) in regard to meat. If you wish to have a good food supply you must encourage production, and you must encourage as far as possible your home-grown produce.

Take the first Order which was issued by the late Food Controller, which dealt with haricot beans. That Order provided that haricot beans must be sold at 6d. per lb. retail and 42s. wholesale. I apologise for introducing a personal note, but the week previous to the Orders being issued, when the Food Controller said the beans must be sold at 42s. wholesale, I bought myself in the City for our own trade four tons of beans at 84s. He issued another Order that English peas should be sold at 8d. I know one wholesale man who on the day the Order was issued had 100 gross, for which he had paid 11½d.; and I know one co-operative society which had 72 gross, bought just before the Order was issued, at 11½d. As a result of this Order, at one blow one lost £210 and the other £151. How can you expect the food distributers of the country to keep their warehouses well stocked with food, especially in the provinces, because that is where the difficulty very largely is, in the munition areas, when you issue Orders like this involving in these tremendous losses these men who are trying to secure the supplies?

I speak with full knowledge when I say that if you were to examine, the accounts—and the Ministry of Food are now asking for balance-sheets and trading accounts—to-day, and compare them with those of six months ago, you would find that six months ago there were heavy debit bank balances because the warehouses were full of stuff, while to-day the bulk of the merchants of the country—I am speaking of the provinces only—have got heavy credit balances and their warehouses are largely depleted. I have seen the queues mentioned by the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson). These people are demanding food, and you are not going to feed them on credit bank balances. I have found nothing but helpfulness from my right hon. Friend Lord Rhondda, but I am only criticising for the purpose of helping when I refer to the method of cutting up bacon and hams. In the Midlands and the North of England there is a class of bacon sold which is called picnic ham. It is not ham at all. It is imitation ham, made out of the shoulders. The custom in these districts has been to bone and roll them the same as they did bacon. According to a recently issued Order, this process is not allowed. The result is that the shopkeeper has got to sell the part either whole or in two halves. If it were rolled and boned it would supply ten or twelve customers, whereas under this Order it supplies only two. I may give the case of one man, who says, "I have fifteen boxes of picnic hams in my place to-day, which, if cut up under the present Order, will supply 1,500 families, whereas if the custom which used to prevail were allowed 9,000 families could be supplied with 1 lb. each."

Now take margarine. I do not know whether it would be right to give the actual figures of the margarine we use in this country. We use something like 6,000 or 7,000 tons in a week. Holland supplies us with 2,000 tons, and 4,000 tons are manufactured in this country. One British firm alone manufactures 2,000 tons a week, and the 2,000 tons are supplied to one firm's set of shops. I do not want to be unfair to this particular firm. This country ought to be grateful to this particular firm for being able to manufacture 2,000 tons of margarine when we are short of butter. We are in a state of war, and, as one hon. Member said, we have no business but to do our utmost in the interests of winning the War. Still, we can take over ships and railways, as we have done, and surely in the interests of food distribution we can take over the manufacture of margarine. The difficulties in connection with this have been aggravated in the past by various Orders issued by the Ministry of Food. These have taken no cognisance of the second wholesale men and small shopkeepers as distributing agents, or of the multiple shops. The multiple shops are almost the only shops at which you find queues. You do not find them at co-operative stores or the ordinary shops. The reason is that some of these multiple shops specially deal in tea, butter and margarine, and these are the very commodities for which the people are scrambling. This is the most violent source of irritation in connection with the distribution of food. As to food distribution, I should not like to say that the Food Controller has not got a fair idea of how food gets through the importer to the retailer—I believe he has—but I am quite certain that many Members of the House have not a clear idea. There are, first, the manufacturers and importers; secondly, there are the brokers; thirdly, the wholesale and second wholesale men; and, fourthly, the retailers. Each of these agents is necessary, and might serve the State if rightly handled. We have got the machinery to-day to deal with this matter, if it is properly used. At the back of this system by which commodites come through the importers to the retailers lies two hundred years of experience in importation and distribution, and this system can be traced to the time of Dick Whittington and his fellow merchants, who were at the foundation of our present commercial prosperity. The men doing this work to-day have been subjected to criticism and described as parasites that should be wiped out. They are referred to as unscrupulous, in the Press and in glib speeches, as profiteers and plunderers, while all the time they are performing more useful service than some of the papers that distribute these scandalous statements. Take the second wholesale man. You will generally find him in the provinces, in large centres of industry, in country towns, and agricultural districts.

I can best give the House an idea of this class of business by quoting figures showing the volume of turnover in one of the North Midland towns—figures which I have had verified by a chartered accountant. The population of the town and district is 500,000. The second wholesalers number twenty-two. The turnover of twelve of them, verified by chartered accountants, is £1,543,586, and of the whole twenty-two second wholesalers is a little over £2,000,000 per year. That gives an average of £128,000 per year. The final agency through which food travels is the retailer, who may be divided into four classes. There is the co-operative society, the multiple shop, the old-fashioned grocer, whose business is generally done on credit, and the small shopkeeper—and this last case will be a revelation to the ordinary man. The small shopkeeper is a man who works his own shop, with, perhaps, a lad, and to-day that shop is being worked, while father is away fighting, by the mother or probably the daughter. Thus you have 5,000 co-operative societies, 10,000 multiple shops, 15,000 old-fashioned grocers, and 70,000 small shops. The proportions of the population supplied by these shops are by the multiple shops 7,000,000, by the co-operative societies, according to their own statement, 10,000,000; by the old-fashioned grocer, not more than 5,000,000; leaving the small shopkeeper to supply not less than 24,000,000 of the people of this country. I know of one firm in a northern town which previous to the restricted supply of tea, six months ago, distributed in that town £75,000 worth of one brand of packet teas to small shops, and all paid for when delivered; thus proving and showing the permanent financial stability of the small shop. Where are these small shops, and this is a matter I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to note? They are located close to the doorstep of the working man; lying within an easy distance of his home. These shops supply everything to the working man. If father comes home and wants a herring he sends his little girl to the little shop, or if he wants a rasher of bacon and an egg equally be sends there. In short, if a family want anything from salts to senna the small shop supplies it. The small shop is the cupboard of the working man. In spite of the advice given by a certain right hon Gentleman to the working men many years ago not to put his £10 into a small shop against the multi-millionaire's shop, the small shop to-day is more vigorous, stronger, and sounder than ever. I should like very respectfully to suggest that the Ministry of Food has not shown that it is alive to the large part which is played in the distribution of food by the small shop.

In support of my suggestion, may I refer to one or two of the recent Food Orders and particularly that applying to jam, because that was one of the Orders which has been amended. When the Government issued the Jam Order they fixed the manufacturer's price. I do not recollect the exact figure, but say at 50s. per cwt., and they fixed the retailer's price at Id. per lb. But above half of that jam has to be distributed by the second wholesaler in this country to these 70,000 little shops; yet there was never a halfpenny set aside, or reckoned for, to pay him! I speak in deference to and in gratitude to the Ministry of Food; for when we pointed this out to them they immediately altered it, and gave us a living wage. Take the Margarine Order as it stands to-day. You buy Dutch margarine at 11¼d. per lb. and from the English manufacturer at 10d. The retailer's priceds 1s. There is nothing for the middleman.

I hope the House will not interpret these illustrations as in the way of hostile criticisms of the Ministry of Food. I have been led to address the House as I have because I should like to recommend that the Ministry of Food should deal with the whole problem. The Government have taken over ships; they have taken over munitions. Why cannot the Food Ministry send down someone from their Canvassing Department and get what it costs the importer, the first and last wholesalers, and the retailer of all kinds to distribute food? Then allow them to have that percentage. The trade itself, I can assure Lord Rhondda and the hon. Member, is not anxious to make any profit out of the necessities of the people or the exigencies of the War. We are anxious to do all we can. All we ask is that we shall have a reasonable wage for the work we do. That, I think, is a reasonable and workable plan, and I commend it to official notice.

Yes. In order to obtain as much food as possible the Food Controller ought not to pay so much attention to the price as to offer every inducement to the manufacturer or importer, so as to get a better food supply. A great advance has been made by Lord Rhondda in delegating to the local authorities the power to deal with the supplies in their own localities. They know the needs and peculiarities of their own people. The people are managed better from the local town hall or by the municipal authorities than from one huge centre in London—whether Whitehall or Westminster. I am grateful to the House for their great patience in listening so long. I am as nervous as when I first spoke here ten or eleven years ago, but my only object in rising was because I felt it my duty to rise. A week last Friday night I went down into my Constituency. When I got off the train at Rotherham I saw a queue at one of the multiple shops. Three policemen were managing it. I inquired of one, "What time does this crowd collect here?" "Every morning when margarine is distributed," was the reply. In the queue were seven children of tender age. It was a cold, bleak, raw morning. Every morning at six o'clock, I was told, the women and the children collected. While I stood there the order came from the front of the establishment, "No more margarine to be distributed to-day." I asked the policeman, telling him who I was, how many women and children were standing there arranged in the queue. They were counted out in fifties, with the result that it was found that there was no margarine that day for 1,020 women and children, many of whom had been waiting for two hours. I know what the men are saying in these areas. I was at a big meeting yesterday and at a big trade union meeting on the Saturday week previous. These men are saying that if this thing goes on they will down tools and take the positions of their wives and children. It would be well for some hon. Members to hear these men's criticisms of us at Westminster; they might realise the danger if this question is not dealt with. It can be dealt with without setting up new machinery, but unless it is dealt with disaster is sure to overtake us in connection with the distribution of food in this country.

I think we all envy the hon. Member who has just spoken his special form of nervousness, for it has produced a speech which we must all admire. At the commencement of this Debate I confess I found myself very much in sympathy with many of the things which were said by the hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Anderson). I am sure we all sympathise with him in his detestation of the queues, and with his sympathy for the women and children who have to stand there, and particularly with those who, when they arrive at the counter, are told that, although there is a nominal price fixed for the article they want to buy, there is none of it, and they cannot have it at any price. Then I sympathised very much with the Member for Salford. His was a very human document. I believe he represented the opinions—possibly mistaken opinions—of vast numbers of our fellow-countrymen. When I heard him speaking about profiteers, for instance, I felt convinced he was speaking exactly what was in the minds of a great many people who firmly believe that the farmer, the producer of food in the country, is making a fabulous fortune. But anybody who listened to the Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) must have realised that so far from the farmer being a profiteer, he is really in many cases carrying on his business under great difficulties, either without profit or at a loss. Then we are told in other quarters that the butcher is the culprit. To-day, like my hon. Friend, I received a deputation of butchers who told me they would be perfectly prepared to do the business for the Government at a remuneration of 2½ per cent., or 6d. in the £. I do not think people in that position and prepared to do that can be making fabulous profits. I have no sympathy whatever with the profiteer. I am ready to bring him to book and punish him, but the difficulty has been this, and this is a point to which I would like to draw the attention of the Under-Secretary for a moment. My difficulty has been that although for the last year or two I have heard a good deal about the profiteer, I have been quite unable to lay my hands upon any particular man, and say, "Here is the culprit." I particularly wanted to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he could not be quite frank with this House, and with the public, throw some light upon this question, and tell us really in the light of his experience and knowledge—which must be very great—Are there many profiteers in this country, and, if so, are they to be found among the food producers, or among the food distributors? I really think it would remove a great deal of misapprehension in the country if a clear statement were made on that point. I know the Government have full powers to deal with the profiteers, because thirteen months ago I asked a question in this House as to whether the Government had full powers to deal with profiteers, and, if not, would they come to this House and ask for those powers which, I felt sure, this House would be only too ready to grant? The reply I received was that the Government already possessed full powers, and did not need any more. That being so, I do think the Government, for their own sake, ought to make a statement and say whether there are these profiteers, and if there are, why they have not been prosecuted under the powers which the Government claim to have.

I would like to refer only for a moment to the really most enlightening speech, in my humble opinion, which was delivered by the hon. Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Cautley) who evidently spoke with full knowledge, and after full consideration. Apparently his desire was to impress on this House the importance of recognising the law of supply and demand. I think in the course of all these discussions we have rather lost sight of that great law of supply and demand. Of course, as regards importations of food from foreign countries and from our Oversea Dominions the law of supply and demand is at the moment out of gear or in abeyance, because, although we may have food supplies across the seas, and although we have a demand here, the means of transport are greatly lacking, and, therefore, so far as overseas supplies are concerned, the law of supply and demand is not working in the normal manner. But as far as this country is concerned the law of supply and demand is, and must be, still operative, and I would venture to submit to the House that it has been recognised for many, many years as the crystallisation of the experience of business men that the law of supply and demand operates through price. Price is the medium through which the law of supply and demand works, and that in course of time has crystallised into a formula which has been called the Wheel of Price. It is said that at the top of this wheel is this: "High prices stimulate production and decrease consumption"; lower down, "Increased production and decreased consumption cause accumulation of stocks"; and lower down still, "Accumulated stocks cause a fall in prices." And so the wheel goes on, until the point is reached at which the fall in prices, or the low level price, checks production, stimulates consumption, and causes prices again to rise on the up grade to a point at which production is stimulated and consumption is reduced. That is exactly what is going on in this country to-day. We cannot stimulate production by fixing low prices, any more than we can reduce consumption by fixing low prices. High prices undoubtedly reduce consumption, and low prices increase consumption. When we speak of high prices and low prices we are using merely relative terms. We cannot say a price is high simply because it is high compared with any certain date the previous year. A price is high or a price is low according to the cost of production. If the cost of production is high, the price must be high if you are to stimulate or keep up production. That, I believe, is a truth of which we are in danger of losing sight, and I am sure that one of the greatest dangers to our food supply is the danger that we may fix prices a little below the cost of production, and as a result cut off supplies.

I do not want to develop this argument at too great length, but I do hope the Food Controller and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food will bear in mind that it is false economy to fix a price so low that production is cut off. It is no comfort to the poor man, woman or child standing in the queue, on arriving at the counter to see a placard to the effect that a certain price is fixed for the commodity they want to buy, but underneath it a notice, "No supply." That does not help. Supply is, after all, more important than price. We can perhaps during these years of war rub along with high prices. There are ways in which we can redress wages to meet prices. There are ways in which, perhaps, we can subsidise articles, as we have subsidised wheat, in order to make the local price within the reach of the masses; but if we cut off the supply then we are in most serious danger. It is the reduction of supplies, I believe, which is most likely to cause social unrest in this country, and, therefore, not in the interest of the profiteer, not in the interest of the farmer or the producer, but in the interest of the great masses of the population, I venture, after thirty or forty years of experience of dealing in the world's markets, and watching the influence of price upon supply and upon consumption, humbly to urge the Government to reflect very, very carefully before they fix prices which are even a fraction below the price at which production is encouraged, because the smallest fraction may have very great results. If, for example, you fix a price at only 1d. a lb. below the cost of production, you ask the producer not merely to work for nothing but to present so much of his own capital to the public. The average farmer is a working man, and that is a point which some hon. Members of the Labour party are apt to ignore. He has a limited capital, and a family to bring up, with liabilities and responsibilities; and, therefore, the average farmer cannot afford to produce an article and to sell it at less than cost. Therefore he is not unpatriotic when he says that he cannot do this. He is simply unable to do it, and is consequently forced to reduce his production. I again urge the Government to consider very carefully in fixing prices as to whether the prices fixed are such as will encourage production and not cut off supplies.

I will now, in accordance with my promise, reply to a few of the points which have been specially put to me since I was allowed earlier in the evening to make a rather long speech. The hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Scanlan) raised two points in regard to the distribution of flour. We have communicated with the authorities in Ireland, but no reply has been received, and as soon as we hear the matter will be dealt with. The hon. Member for Sligo's other point was in reference to potatoes. At the beginning of this year the Prime Minister gave a general assurance to potato growers that if they would increase their tillage there would be a minimum price fixed of £6 per ton in cases where the quantities reached at least six tons. That was reduced later to four tons in order to bring in a group of the smaller growers. Later on, in response to appeals that were made when it was found that there was such a large weight of potatoes produced that the growers were actually selling them below the minimum price fixed, under pressure of those circumstances prices were again varied to meet them. With regard to the appeal now being made that the growers should be allowed to sell under the conditions of the subsidy potatoes at any weight, I am unable to give an answer now, but I am willing to receive any further representations, either by a personal deputation or in writing. I was asked by the hon. Member for North Salford, whose advent to the House is a further reminder of his long public services in the industrial sphere, what we are going to do with the profiteer. We have at every stage of our work sought to eliminate the profiteer, and if my hon. Friend will assist us in discovering any of the few profiteers who still remain, proceedings will immediately be taken. The hon. Member for Tamworth (Mr. Wilson-Fox) pressed for some scheme of general national rations, and asked whether the Department was duly considering the necessity of such a scheme for the near future. May I say that we have for the past six or seven weeks been actively at work in making the necessary preparations for launching such a scheme if later on food shortage and difficulties of distribution make it essential. For my part, I hesitate to encourage the adoption of a scheme of national rationing. I may look at it from a class standpoint, but my conviction is that it is a system immensely difficult to administer, and a system that will impose upon the very poorer people even hardships and privations greater than we are now suffering. I admit, if conditions compel us to adopt it, that it will become a national necessity, and the Department is making every pre- parathion for that emergency should it arise The hon. Member for East Grin-stead (Mr. Cautley) addressed himself wholly to the condition of the farmer and the food producers in agricultural areas. It is not, I think, an unfair criticism to say that his whole speech meant that we ought to do nothing at all but to leave things alone to the farmers and the food producers. We cannot do that. I am not responsible for the taste of the Army with respect to lean meat, and I cannot purport to answer for the Army buying as it used to be conducted in former days, but I explained earlier that there is now co-operative action between the two Departments, and none of that competition that formerly existed. The scale which we fixed for dead meat some months ago, we fixed not after having consulted a Board of Children, as was the futile suggestion of an hon. Member, but after having taken into account and naturally considered the advice and counsel of the very best authorities that could be got for the purpose, including farmer representatives, and a very large number of food producers. The only fault they found was with the price that was to begin at the end of this year. The Food Controller has postponed the operation of that price until the middle of the coming summer, so that much of that complaint disappears. The other price has certainly not had that effect which the hon. Member alleged, because were it true that farmers and cattle breeders were selling thousands of beasts for slaughter in July, August, and September of this year, because of the prevailing high prices the markets then would have been choked with meat, but they were not so full, and there is none of that danger arising from that cause. I would add that even if it were true it is certainly no compliment to the patriotism of the farmers. We have had to call upon every section of the community, not to make the best bargain for the moment, but to seek to give the greatest service that they can to the community, and to fit themselves into the general course and condition of things as they travel along. The only other point in the speech of the hon. Member was that we must guard against checking production and restricting or limiting the supplies of food by placing too low a price upon any article. That to some extent was the burden of my speech, and I tried to show that we were exceptionally careful not to fix a price which would either discourage production and restrict supplies, or pay to a man for his services less than he was entitled to for the useful work which all producers are performing. There is nothing more constantly before the mind of the Department than the necessity of paying a reasonable and even an encouraging price for what has to be done, and that was especially shown in the case of potatoes, where we gave a subsidy of £5,000,000 in order to increase the output. The hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Arthur Richardson), who made a vigorous speech, alluded to many points, upon some of which I will try to touch. He complained that we had offered and given a higher price for Dutch cheese than for English cheese. The reason for that is not that we wanted to put money into the pockets of Dutchmen as compared with Englishmen, but because where we cannot control the market we must pay higher prices to attract and secure the commodity, and because we are there in competition with other buyers. When we have had to do that, then, as we have done in the case of other commodities, the prices have been pooled in order that the consumer, who is given an equality of the article, should pay the same or a similar price for either of these things, even though originally a different price was charged for both of them. Most of the other points made by the hon. Member, down to that part of his speech in which he reminded us that Dick Whittington was the originator of the modern small shop, were covered by my previous speech or, if they were not, I certainly agreed with most of the points he made. Finally, the hon. Member mentioned that 24,000,000 of our population are supplied with most of their daily foods through the medium of the small shop. I ask those who are seeking to force us to hurriedly adopt a general system of rationing to bear that outstanding fact in mind. It illustrates and emphasises the immense task of undertaking a system of national rationing where you have, to a great extent, unfortunately, a large number of shopkeepers who are illiterate, who are not used to keeping records, and who are in no sense competent to do the immense amount of work connected with registration which would be essential if a system of rationing were forced upon us. I think I have now covered the many points which have been raised in this very helpful Debate, and I would ask the House to give us the Second Reading of the Bill.

May I remind the hon. Gentleman that he has not replied to the point I made, of which a note was taken for him?

That point dealt with profiteering. I thought I had, in a general way, replied to that in my reference to the speech of the hon. Member for North Salford. I said we had done all we could to eliminate profiteering. I do not admit that it exists now in the sense that it existed formerly, and I said that if my hon. Friend could discover the profiteer in North Salford or elsewhere we should do our best to deal with him.

There are one or two points I desire to put to the Parliamentary Secretary before the Debate closes. In a Debate of this kind it becomes every hon. Member to be most careful in what he says. The eyes of all our enemies are upon us, and are looking to anything said in this House with a longing to see the first signs of starvation in our country. Therefore we should be careful not to attribute to a wrong cause the trouble we are suffering from to-day. Notwithstanding the speeches of the hon. Member for the Attercliffe Division and North Salford, I would submit that on no day since the War began in 1914 has any citizen of this country been unable to get a sufficiency of food, provided, of course, that he has had the money to pay for it, which is as necessary a condition in peace time as it is in war time. There has always been a sufficiency of food of a sort. It may have been dear, and it may not have been the exact variety of food he required; but all these months there has been sufficient, and I pray God it may continue so in the months to come. I think it will if we are economical, and do not waste any food at all. The food queue, for the first time in our national history, has become a thing of daily occurrence. I submit that the food queue is the direct result of Government action. Some months ago a sugar registration system was initiated and people were registered at various retailers. The result has been that any householder who is registered at a small shop in a back street is unable to get a supply of any provisions such as butter, tea, or margarine at a shop where he is not registered for sugar. I have a letter from a Constituent bearing out what I assert. This lady says:

The Food Controller, I believe, has been complaining that the magistrates, especially the unpaid magistrates, are not severe enough in the penalties they inflict upon people who disobey his orders. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can tell me who fixed the price of cheap jam at 8½d., and whether it is known in the Food Control Office that poor people buy that jam by the quarter pound? And could he tell me—I am no mathematician; no doubt he is—how you can divide 8½d. by four and arrive at a result which is payable in the current coin of the realm? Let us be fair to these small shopkeepers. They have either to sell their jam at 2d. a ¼ lb. and lose ½d., or at 2½d. and run the risk of prosecution. They can take their choice.

Then I should like to ask one or two questions about the appointment of local control committees. Were they elected or nominated, and, if nominated, on what plan were they nominated? I had occasion to get a list of our own local control committee, and I find it is practically composed of five members of the wholesale traders and five members of a large trade union and co-operative society, together with the mayor and the manager of the local paper. I take no exception to any name included in the committee—they are all gentlemen of great ability and high integrity. But if that committee was appointed to represent all interests, where is the representative of the small shopkeeper? He is not there at all. There is no representative of the small buyer. There is no representative of the soldier's and sailor's wife on that committee. This matter was brought to my notice by an old lady who called upon me and complained that she had not been able to get any butter for two months. She was seventy years of age, and said she could not stand in a queue. That woman is suffering a very great hardship, and she had no representative on that control committee to whom she could appeal. I would ask the Food Controller if these committees are supposed to be representative will he make them representative by appointing persons to represent the small shopkeeper and the small consumer? Does the hon. Member (Mr. Clynes) know anything about the crop of chestnuts? I understand, rightly or wrongly, that a Report was made either by one of his Departments or to one of his Departments on the possibility of bringing over the Spanish chestnut crop from the South of Spain, but that the scheme was turned down with very scant consideration. The information only reached me on Friday night, but I communicated with the hon. Member before raising the matter to-night. I am told that the crop is lying in the South of Spain rotting because the Shipping Controller will not provide space for it. It has always been brought over in combination with our iron ore. Iron ore being a heavy cargo only requires a little space, and chestnuts being a Sight cargo require a lot of space. Therefore they form a combined cargo. These chestnuts could be brought over in iron ore ships without chartering one single additional vessel to do it. Will the hon. Gentleman look into that?

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at a Quarter before Twelve o'clock.