House of Commons
Tuesday, December 18, 1917
Destructive Insects and Pests Acts
Copy presented of Order numbered D.I.P. 514, declaring an area described in the Schedule thereto to be infected with Wart Disease and an infected area for the purposes of the Wart Disease of Potatoes (Infected Areas) Order of 1914 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
War
German Foreign Minister (Correspondent)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Baron von Kühlmann, the German Foreign Minister, is able to correspond with a lady of high lineage in England under cover of a neutral dispatch bag; and, if so, whether any steps are taken to prevent such correspondence?
I have no knowledge of the matter, and am reluctant to believe that any neutral Government would lend itself to such an abuse of diplomatic privilege. I should be glad if my hon. and gallant Friend will furnish me with any information on the subject.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Foreign Office have any control over neutral dispatch bags?
I would rather discuss this matter privately with my hon. and gallant Friend.
Peace Terms
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is prepared to propose to the Allied Governments the conclusion of a treaty for the total exclusion of all commerce, shipping, and trade with the Central Powers until such time as they have abandoned all territories occupied by force of arms during this War, made complete reparation for all their crimes against civilised communities on land and sea, and have signified their acceptance of the Allied proposals for the self-determination of nationalities, international arbitration, and limitation of armaments after the War?
My hon. and gallant Friend will not expect me to say more than that his suggestion will receive careful consideration.
M. Caillaux (Newspaper Articles)
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to an article in the "Daily Chronicle" of Friday last, 14th December, from its Paris correspondent, entitled "Caillaux Clouding the Issue"; and whether he will prevent British newspapers from publishing articles taking sides in questions arising in the purely internal affairs of our Allies?
I have no power to dictate what articles British newspapers may or may not publish. But if the hon. Member thinks that the stringency of the Government control over the Press should be increased, perhaps he will furnish me with his ideas on the subject.
May I seriously ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that already the French newspapers are stating that these attacks on M. Caillaux are due to the fact that he has long been an enemy of one of the political parties in this country, and they say that the accusations were begun by Lord Northcliffe, through the intermediary of his Rome correspondent; and can he not at any rate make a statement asking him not to drag this country into this controversy?
I do not think the House will desire and I am sure it would not be advisable for me to indicate to the Press the line they ought to take in these matters. The view I have always taken with regard to foreign affairs is that it is far better to trust the Press to use discretion in these matters, subject, of course, to the possibility of a prosecution under the Defence of the Realm Act in cases where the Press bring themselves within that Act
Home Battalions (Officers)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether in view of the fact that officers now in command of battalions at home are being replaced by officers from the front and that such released officers have had experience abroad, he will explain why their services cannot be utilised so as to release for active service those of military age still retained in the various camps in this country who have not been on active service during the War?
The officers referred to are senior officers, and therefore cannot take the place of officers of the junior ranks.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that an officer, forty-four years of age, who is thoroughly efficient, is to be asked to resign to make room for an officer coming from the front and yet the War Office say that they want more men?
Perhaps my hon. Friend will give me particulars.
Military Hospital (Canterbury)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware that No. 2 Military Hospital, Old Park, Canterbury, is in a most wretched condition for the wounded soldiers who are brought there; that the huts of fifty beds have often only one Royal Army Medical Corps orderly in charge; that they are quite insufficiently warmed with only two or three stoves; that in some cases the sanitary and lavatory accommodation is 200 yards away from the hut, and that even pneumonia recovering cases have often to go out in the wintry nights this distance; and will he see that an investigation is made and suitable improvements made?
Orders have been given for this hospital to be closed until alterations which are recommended by the Sanitary Committee can be carried out.
Military Service
Disobedience to Orders (Sentence)
asked whether any reply has yet been received from the Commander-in-Chief in India to a petition sent to him on 2nd June, 1917, by Private Donald Aitchison, 55th Brigade, D Battery, 13th Division, who was sentenced to five years' imprisonment for disobeying an order, although he had been excused by the medical officer from duty on that day; whether the attention of his Department has been called to the fact that this medical officer was not called as a witness at the court-martial; and whether, in view of the fact that Aitchison was five times in action between the day of the disobedience and the sentence, the Department can see their way to send him back to the firing line, which he urgently desires?
I have no information as to this petition, which appears to have been addressed to the Commander-in-Chief in India. I will write to India and inquire.
Red Cross Workers
asked whether men who are fit for military service are employed by the Red Cross; and, if so, what is the number?
My hon. Friend has asked me to reply. The total number of men of military age employed by the British Red Cross Society in France is stated by the society to be approximately 1,900. As a result of representations made by the Recruiting Department to General Headquarters, France, in June in this year, a proportion of these men are being withdrawn for service in the armed forces, on the principle that men fit for general service, and men of category B1, under thirty years of age, shall be released, subject to the right of appeal by the society to the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief in France in very special cases of indispensability.
The British Red Cross Society further states that there are also approximately 200 men of military age similarly employed in other theatres of the War. In this country, excluding tribunal cases, there are approximately 250 men of military age employed by the British Red Cross Society. With two exceptions, none of these men are fit for general service. In addition to the above there are a certain number of men of military age who have been granted exemption by tribunals in the ordinary Course, and who have undertaken work, either whole or part time under the British Red Cross Society.
May we take it that all the Red Cross men who are fit for the front have been combed out?
I do not think the hon. and gallant Member should quite take that for granted, but it is being very carefully watched and it is being done. Of course, many of these men have been granted exemption by tribunals and neither ourselves nor the War Office have any control over them. Some of them are men who have been in the Red Cross Society from the beginning and they are very valuable.
Has the War Office no control over fit men employed in this way?
Not if the tribunals have exempted them.
Questions
Small Holders, Bristol
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will inquire into the case of Harold Thomas, of West Town, near Bristol, a small holder and pig breeder, who has recently been called to the Colours and is now in Wormwood Scrubs Prison; whether he is aware that his holding is now neglected and his food production entirely cut off; whether this case was considered by the Somerset War Agricultural Committee; if not, why this has not been done; and whether this case may be taken as indicating that the Board of Agriculture has given up the policy of refusing to the Army men engaged in producing food for the nation?
The Board are not aware of the circumstances of this case, which has not previously been brought to their notice. They are making inquiries, however, and will report the result to the hon. Member as soon as possible.
War Service (Decorations)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the desirability of issuing a medal or other distinction to the survivors of the British forces which took part in the China Expedition which ended in the capture of Tsingtau-Kiachou in November, 1914?
The service of all those who have taken part in all operations against the enemy during the present War will be considered and will receive suitable recognition in due course.
Is it not a fact that the case of the China Expedition is rather a special one, inasmuch as the operations have been concluded, and successfully concluded?
Yes; the facts are as stated, but the whole question is being considered sympathetically.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can make any announcement with regard to the suggested distinction between decorations granted for gallantry in action and those for other distinguished service?
This matter has been fully considered, and while appreciating the point of view of those who desire to make the distinction suggested, the Army Council have decided not to proceed with the matter, owing to the difficulties of reaching a solution which would be equitable and satisfactory to all.
asked whether, in view of the efforts now being made to obtain medals for the various campaigns of the present War, the decision to officially describe the star to be awarded for service during a certain period of 1914 in France and Belgium as the 1914 star will be reconsidered; and whether it can now be definitely laid down that service on more than one front shall in no other cases entitle a soldier to receive more than one separate war medal?
The official description of this star is the "1914 Star," as published in the Army Order bearing on this subject. With regard to the latter part of this question, the question of the award of medals for the present War is receiving careful consideration.
Will due consideration be given to the necessity of avoiding the multiplication of ribbons in the case of those who happen to have served on more than one front?
Certainly.
asked the Under-Secretary for War whether he will consider the advisibility of including among the recipients of the 1914 star those French and Belgian liaison officers and interpreters attached to British units who rendered most valuable assistance during the period for which the medal is being awarded?
This matter is under consideration.
Prisoners of War
asked whether, in view of the fact that British officer prisoners of war in Germany are restricted to writing two letters and four postcards per month, any similar restriction is placed on German officer prisoners of war in this country?
German officer prisoners of war are allowed to send two letters a week; postcards count as a letter, if they bear any writing other than name and address of sender. I understand that the regulations for our officer prisoners are as stated. There are, however, other circumstances which tend to equalise the conditions.
asked whether the Reports of the Netherlands Minister at Berlin on the various prisoners' camps in Germany will be published, so that their contents may be communicated to the relatives of our prisoners of war in these camps and other persons interested?
The question of publishing these Reports has often been considered, and it is thought advisable to treat them as confidential.
In the case of people who have got relatives who are prisoners in a particular camp where the conditions are said to be bad, can they get information by applying to my hon. Friend?
Yes; if they will apply to me, I will give them all the information in my power.
asked the hon. Member for Sheffield (Central Division) whether he can make any statement as to the result of the negotiations at Berne with the representatives of the Turkish Government on the subject of exchange of prisoners of war; whether he can say whether the officer prisoners of war who were placed in solitary connnement in Constantinople in the early months of this year by way of alleged reprisal have yet been released from this confinement; whether he is aware that letters addressed to prisoners of war in Turkey and by them to relatives in this country have for some months failed to be delivered; and whether any improvement in the postal facilities may be anticipated?
I am not yet in a position to make any statement upon the result of the negotiations at Berne. In regard to the second part of the question, the answer is in the affirmative. I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for South Bristol on 19th July. In regard to the third part of the question, the delay of correspondence with prisoners of war in Turkey has for some time been engaging the attention of His Majesty's Government, and representations have been made on this subject, which is also being taken up by the British delegates at Berne.
Staff and Regimental Officers
asked how many Staff officers at general headquarters, Army corps, and divisional headquarters now serving in France have not had any regimental service during the last two years?
This information can only be acquired from France, and I am not prepared to ask the authorities, who are already overburdened with work, to undertake the labour involved in its compilation.
asked whether it is intended to introduce a system of complete interchange between Staff and regimental officers such as obtains in the French and German Armies; and whether officers of the Territorial Force and New Armies, after four years' experience of war, will receive at home and abroad the same chances of promotion to Staff appointments as are accorded to officers of the Regular Army?
A system of interchange between regimental and Staff officers already exists, but in the higher grades it is not in the interests of the Service and efficiency to make constant changes, as Staff work is technical and requires experience and continuity. The answer to the second part of the question is in the affirmative as regards the Adjutant-General's and Quartermaster-General's Staffs at home and abroad, and as regards the General Staff at home.
Will the hon. Gentleman say if the system of interchange does exist, and in what Regulation it is to be found?
It is a matter of fact and does exist, as my hon. and gallant Friend well knows.
No, I do not know.
Army Commanders (Retired List)
asked how many commanders of Armies and corps in France have been placed on the retired list during the last two years?
None have been placed on the retired list.
Courts-Martial
asked whether, in view of the fact that since the outbreak of the present War the French Government has instituted a rule providing that a non-commissioned officer must serve as one of the judges on all courts-martial where the prisoner is a non-commissioned officer or a private soldier, he will consider the advisability of making a similar change in the procedure of courts-martial in the British Army?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer given on 28th November to my hon. Friend the Member for Hanley.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War what is the highest rank of any officer who has been court-martialled for cowardice in the face of the enemy; and what is the highest rank of any officer upon whom the death penalty has been inflicted?
I cannot give this information.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it is the custom to read out to all the troops on parade a report of all the cases of men who have been shot for cowardice; whether this report includes the name, number, and regiment of the men; and, if so, whether, having regard to the feelings of the relatives of such men in England, the practice will be discontinued?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative; and to the last, in the negative.
Does not the hon. Gentleman consider, having once punished a man, that it is exceptionally cruel to punish all his relatives as well?
My hon. Friend will recollect that there has been a War Cabinet decision that the relatives of these soldiers shall be informed that the soldier so punished will be placed in the casualty list as having been killed.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, owing to this publicity in France, the news is brought home, and gives rise to rumours infinitely more unfortunate; and is it not better, if you are going to give it publicity in France, also to give it publicity in England?
I can express no opinion as to the decision arrived at.
In the case of soldiers who have suffered from shell-shock, is the fact that they have so suffered brought out?
I have never come across a single case, and I make bold to challenge the hon. Member to produce a single case, where any soldier has been executed without being examined, before trial and before sentence, by a medical officer.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether any difference exists in the constitution of a court-martial for the trial of an officer or a private?
I am not quite sure what my hon. Friend has in mind, but, generally speaking, an officer can only be tried by general court-martial, which includes on active service, in certain circumstances, a field general court-martial.
Is an officer on these occasions allowed to have counsel or any assistance whatever?
That question does not arise, but I may say, as I have already said several times in answer to questions, that in field general courts-martial it is not obligatory to see that an officer is represented by counsel. It is almost invariably the case that he is represented by a friend.
Is a private allowed the same privilege?
Certainly.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will issue an Army Order that in future no officer or man shall be found guilty and shot, on a charge of cowardice until his medical and mental history has been inquired into?
I have nothing to add to the previous answers which I have given on this subject.
Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to consider the advisability in all cases of having the soldier medically and mentally examined to see whether his mental condition had anything to do with his action in the face of the enemy?
I have just said that is so, in answer to a previous question.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of Branislaw Yastzempski, alias Yast, a Russian Pole, of 62, Welbourne Road, Tottenham, N. 17, who has a wife, a natural-born British woman, and three dependent children; whether he is aware that this man, who was in good employment, was called up for military service three months ago but has been repeatedly sent back; that he is therefore unable to get employment and that he and his family are destitute; and whether he will either call him up and give his wife adequate separation allowance or will give him a final discharge from the obligation to serve?
My hon. Friend has asked me to reply. Inquiries are being made into the facts of this case.
Will the inquiry be expedited in view of the fact that this man was earning over £5 a week and that he and his family are now absolutely penniless?
I can only say that inquiries are being made into the facts.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that, owing to the depression in the slate-quarrying industry in North Wales men, prior to joining the Colours, were employed for three days only per week; and whether, inasmuch as the amount of their separation allowance is based upon the allowance made to their dependants during the six months preceding their enlistment, he will in such cases consider the advisability of adopting a longer basis than six months, or the wages earned per day, so as to secure a fair separation allowance for the dependants?
My hon. Friend is under some misapprehension. There is no limit of six months, and while irregularity of employment cannot be altogether left out of account, the pension authorities have full discretion to base their estimate of dependence on an average taken over such period as may appear to them to be equitable in the circumstances of the particular case.
asked the Pensions Minister whether he has yet completed the local investigations with regard to the case of Mrs. Hanna, whose son, able-seaman Arthur Edward Hanna, No. 232,914 D, lost his life in His Majesty's destroyer "Laforey" on 23rd March, 1917; and whether, as the result of such inquiries, Mrs. Hanna is not to be deprived of her pension in consequence of her patriotism in declining a separation allowance during the life of her son?
A pension of 4s. weekly, representing the amount of dependence on her son prior to the outbreak of war, has been granted to Mrs. Hanna, with effect from the 26th June, 1917. She returned her form of application on the 5th instant, and payment was authorised the following day. Further inquiries have been made into the case; but it has been ascertained that, as Mrs. Hanna has other means of support, the above amount cannot be increased under the Regulations at present in force.
Is this 4s. per week the same amount as would have been granted had this woman accepted a dependence allowance?
Yes; it is exactly the same, based on the prewar dependence.
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he can explain the circumstances under which the allowances granted to the illegitimate children of a corporal posted as killed in May, 1915, were stopped for the greater part of 1916, and for practically the whole of 1917, until last week, without full inquiries as to the children's future welfare being made by the Ministry; whether his attention has been frequently called to the fact that these children were only being kept out of the workhouse by local charity, including letters from the county Antrim pensions committee; and whether proper pensions and arrears are now being paid to those who have taken charge of these children?
I cannot answer the question on the Paper unless my hon. and gallant Friend can give me the name of the corporal in question and other particulars, but if he is referring to the case of Corporal Quinn, Inniskilling Fusiliers, about which he wrote to me a short time ago, I can say that it is being investigated, and I hope to be able to give him a definite answer in a few days' time.
Soldiers' Leave
asked what steps have recently been taken to give leave to our troops serving in France; and how many men have recently been granted leave?
I dealt with the general question of leave in Debate on 31st October I think the House will hear with interest that while in August, September, and October of last year the number of men who received leave was 85,379, in August, September and October of this year the number was 488,865, and the latest return available shows that 249,163 leave men have been transported from France during the six weeks ending on 15th December last.
asked whether officers who are in convalescent homes under the Eastern Command are being refused Christmas leave; if so, is the order general or does it only apply to the Eastern Command; will he consider the hardship of such a regulation on those who have made sacrifices for their country, many of whom have not been to their homes for a long period; and will he see that the order is withdrawn?
I have made inquiries, and I am informed that no command orders in the Eastern Command have been issued in the sense suggested. If my hon. Friend will give me more particulars, I will inquire further into the matter.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War how many days' leave in each year a soldier is entitled to providing circumstances permit the granting of that leave; and whether he will state that soldiers who have not received this amount of leave owing to the exigencies of the War shall receive an equivalent compensation by monetary payment, which, in the event of their death, will be handed to their next-of-kin who have shared the deprivation?
Leave is not granted as a right, but as a privilege. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
In view of the fact that this is a civilian Army, and that we have been at war for over three years, would the Government consider the advisability of making leave a question of right and not of privilege?
Of course, the House will realise that this is not a civilian Army, and that it is quite impossible.
General Elliot
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is now in a position to announce that General Elliot will be immediately reinstated in his command as Brigadier-General?
There has as yet been no opportunity of employing him.
Will my hon. Friend bear the case in mind, and see that no delay occurs in reinstating him?
Certainly.
Is this officer being reinstated for some reasons apart from the offence alleged against him?
I think my hon. Friend is wrong in making any such suggestion. As far as the Army Council is concerned, I think they show their bona fides by reinstating at least one.
Lunacy Control
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he is aware of a recent public statement by Sir R. Armstrong-Jones, a lunacy expert now in the service of the War Office, to the effect that he hoped to see speedily introduced into Parliament a measure purporting to bring all early cases of loss of mental balance, whether occurring in the Army or in civilian life, under lunacy control on the sole authority of one doctor; and what steps he intends to take with a view to protecting soldiers from loss of liberty?
No, Sir; I have not seen the statement referred to, which I presume was made by Sir R. Armstrong-Jones in his private capacity.
Discharged Soldiers
asked whether, with a view to retaining under the stringency of military control soldiers invalided through uncertifiable nerve strain until such soldiers are cured, it is proposed to build for them institutional barracks where they will be placed under care of a committee consisting largely of lunacy experts; and how many soldiers is it intended to collect within the walls of each institution?
I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to discharged soldiers; if so, the matter would appeal to be for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions to answer, and I would suggest that my hon. Friend put his question down to him.
Church Parade (Mahomedan Soldiers)
asked under what section of the Army Act Mahomedan soldiers are compelled to attend church parade to the Church of England?
There is no section of the Army Act dealing with this matter, but if my hon. Friend will refer to paragraph 1333 of the King's Regulations he will find the information he desires. No soldier is obliged to attend the service of any other religious body than his own.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is the habit to march these men to church, number them off, and fall them out, and then march them back again; and does he not think that this is quite unnecessary and likely to give rise to considerable friction?
Is it not a fact that care is always taken in the British Army that the men of the various religions shall attend only the services of those churches to which they belong?
That is so.
Army Service Corps (Commissions)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been, called to the dissatisfaction which prevails as to the methods of selection for commissions at the Army Service Corps (Mechanical Transport) School at Grove Park; whether he is aware that several soldiers recommended for commissions by their commanding officers after service in France have been refused commissions, although the examinations proved that they had attained a high degree of technical proficiency; and, if so, whether an inquiry will be held as to the methods of selection?
No, Sir; I am not aware of the general dissatisfaction suggested by my hon. Friend. If he will give the details on which his question is based I shall be in a better position to furnish him with an answer.
If I produce details of cases, shall I not be accused of asking favours at the War Office?
Oh, not necessarily.
Officers' Uniforms
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he can state the reasons which have induced the Army Council to fix a maximum price for officers' uniforms; whether he is aware that the prices announced are in excess of those hitherto charged by many of the best West End firms for their best material and workmanship; upon whose advice the prices were arrived at; and what steps he proposes to take to ensure that officers charged the full prices obtain material and workmanship up to the highest standard?
Maximum price was fixed so as to secure that m spite of all difficulties which may be experienced in the future there shall be a supply of officers' uniforms of sound material, at reasonable prices. I am informed that these prices are substantially below those now charged by any of the best West End tailors. The maximum prices were fixed after examination by chartered accountants of the costings both of manufacture and making up. The standard Government cloths to which these prices relate are manufactured with a distinguishing mark in the selvage to prevent substitution and competition, and the firms reputation will no doubt ensure good work in making up.
Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that many young officers who purchase uniforms of firms do not know whether they are good or not, and for their protection does he not consider that some arrangement should be made to ensure that they get proper value for their money; and will he also call for the prices of firms whose prices are below the fixed maximum?
I do not in the least object to the prices being below the maximum. I hope that in many cases they will be. We have been anxious to secure that there shall be brought within the pecuniary reach of all officers a thoroughly sound article.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the uniforms of officers who joined up in 1914 and who had their £40 or £50 grant are now worn out, and is it proposed to give them a further grant?
That is a totally different question.
Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise that many officers will have to pay more for their uniforms than they paid before the time the maximum prices were brought in?
That does not follow at all. We have fixed a maximum. There is nothing to prevent a firm making a lower charge. The officer is at full liberty to go where he likes. All we do is to secure to him an opportunity of getting a thoroughly sound uniform at a reasonable price.
Auxiliary Hospitals (Grants)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office from what date the increased grants-in-aid of auxiliary hospitals, Classes A and B, of 3s. 3d. and 2s. 6d., respectively, have been payable; when the increased grants recently announced will be made payable in the case of voluntary hospitals established before the War and which are now receiving wounded soldiers as in-patients; and what the maximum grants to such hospitals in respect of such service will be?
The new rates, which are maxima, take effect from the 1st August, 1917. If the hospitals referred to in the second part of the question are established civil hospitals they are in receipt of grants on a different scale, and the question of increasing those grants is under consideration.
When will the right hon. Gentleman be in a position to announce the additional grant to those voluntary hospitals established before the War which are now receiving only 4s. per head per day for military cases?
I understand that my hon. Friend refers to the large hospitals, such as the London Hospital and others. I hope that there will be no undue delay. The question of increasing the grant is now under consideration.
Has it been referred to a Committee?
I should like notice of that question.
Widow's Eviction (Invergordon))
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether Mrs. D. Fraser, a widow of nearly seventy with a son serving as a sergeant in the Canadian Artillery, was evicted recently at Invergordon during a snowstorm; whether her furniture was turned out in the snow; what were the circumstances which caused the eviction; and whether anything can be done to prevent similar acts of barbarity during the War?
As far as my information goes, the facts of the case are as stated in the question. I understand that the order for the ejection was made on the ground permitted by the Rent Restriction Act. But its legality is no excuse for the manner in which the ejection seems to have been carried out. I fear that this is one of those cases in which we must rely rather on the expression of public opinion than on any legislative action. I regret I have no power to interfere in the matter.
Food Supplies
Christmas Restrictions
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Ministry of Food have issued an order restricting the quantity of meat which may be purchased during the Christmas season, while the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) have at the same time relaxed the restrictions upon the dispatch of liquor from licensed premises during the period from 17th to 24th December so as to enable consumers to lay in supplies of liquor for Christmas; and whether it is now the policy of the Government, while reducing the consumption of food, to encourage the increased consumption of alcohol?
I have been asked to reply. The objects of the Meat (Restriction of Retail Sales) Order is to prevent the consumption in the four weeks ending January 13th, 1918, from exceeding the quantity consumed in the four weeks ending January 13th, 1918, The Central Control Board's Order is designed to meet the public convenience during days when experience shows that the street traffic is more than ordinarily congested, and it removes none of the existing restrictions either upon the output of liquor or upon the hours within which it may be sold. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Is not the effect of the Order to remove certain restrictions upon the delivery of liquor, and in that respect is it not entirely inconsistent with the policy adopted by the Department?
Only in the sense of meeting public convenience. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the limitations on the consumption of meat are slight in comparison with those on liquor. In the case of liquor the restrictions extend to at least one-half as regards quantity, and certainly to a very great degree as regards strength.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether an exception to the Order limiting the supply of meat by butchers to the amount supplied in the month of October can be made in the case of meat required for the provision of Christmas dinners for old people, where it has been supplied for many years past?
Under the Meat (Restriction of Retail Sales) Order, where exceptional circumstances exist, a food control committee may authorise a butcher to sell a further quantity of meat provided that total amount sold in the area of the committee in the four weeks ending January 13th, 1918, does not exceed the quantity sold in the four weeks ending October 27th, 1917. The purpose to which my hon. Friend refers will properly be regarded as an exceptional circumstance, and I hope his desires will be met with regard to the old people referred to
Does the hon. Gentleman not think that in the case of these old people, seeing that it is not a very large amount, it might be in excess of the amount supplied? If the total amount is limited there may be a difficulty in getting it.
If that occurs I hope that the local food committee would not be prosecuted for allowing an excess supply.
Loans to Farmers (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether any arrangement has been made by the Board of Agriculture in Scotland to get for farmers there the same advantage as is given them in England, in the way of loans from banks at 5 per cent, interest, to enable them to purchase manures, implements, etc., to increase the output of food?
This question is at present under discussion between the Scottish Board of Agriculture and the Treasury.
Potatoes
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether it is intended to guarantee in 1918 to farmers a minimum price for potatoes; if so, is he aware that the high prices still ruling for manures and labour will prevent many farmers contemplating potatoes as a crop unless there is such guarantee; and is he aware of the necessity of acting speedily?
The Food Controller is fully alive to the importance of the question raised by the hon. Member. An announcement may be expected on the subject very shortly.
Shortage (Ireland)
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he is aware of the shortage of food-stuffs in the West of Ireland; that sufficient flour cannot be procured in Castlebar to supply even the urban area; that the rural district is without flour, sugar, or bread; that Mr. John Murphy, Turlough, who caters for an extensive area, has been unable to procure flour, although he applied for it to the following firms: Messrs. R. and H. Hall, Limited, Westport; Joseph Rank, Limited, Liverpool; William Marshall and Company, Belfast; and W. and G. P. Pollexfen and Company, Limited, Ballisodare, Sligo; and will he take steps to have traders in the West of Ireland supplied with a reasonable quantity of food-stuffs, and especially flour?
I have been asked to reply. I am not aware that there is any general shortage of food-stuffs in the West of Ireland. I am informed that there is an abundance of potatoes and oatmeal, and that the amount of flour produced weekly in Ireland, taken in conjunction with the quantity sent there from British ports, reaches a total in excess of the normal requirements of Irish consumers. The scarcity of flour in certain districts is partly attributable to difficulties of shipment, partly to the practice, in spite of prosecutions, of feeding flour to calves and pigs, in direct contravention of the Food Controller's Orders.
Food Ships (Convoys)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he can state the general result of the convoying of food ships into British ports to protect them from enemy attack; is every effort made to have them unloaded at the first available port; and can he give any satisfactory assurance on these points?
The general result of the convoy system has been greatly to diminish losses. As I have already informed the House, of all cargoes homeward bound to the United Kingdom (whether in British or foreign vessels) in the months of September and October, 3 per cent, was lost, of which 1 per cent. was represented by food. I am now able to give the results for November. In that month only 2 per cent, of the homeward-bound cargoes was lost, of which 0.5 per cent, was represented by food. Of the wheat homeward bound in November none whatever was lost. With regard to the last part of my hon. Friend's question, in determining the use of ports the safety of vessels and their cargoes is the first consideration.
Questions
Sailing Vessel "Oweenee."
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether the sailing vessel "Oweenee," 2,432 tons gross register, is registered as a British ship, owned by the Hudson Bay Company; whether this vessel loaded a cargo of coal at Cardiff in the early days of October for Russia, and has been lying at an Irish port for about two months; and whether, as this is a wasteful use of tonnage, and coal is badly wanted in Ireland, instructions will be given to discharge the 3,500 tons of coal, or thereabouts, at this Irish port, and release the vessel for more useful purposes than employment as a coal hulk?
As I have already informed the hon. Gentleman, this vessel is owned and controlled by the Russian Government. It is not thought desirable to publish the arrangements that have been made, but I will convey them in confidence to the hon. Member.
Halifax Disaster (British Shipping Losses)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he can make a statement regarding the loss of or damage to British shipping during the recent disaster at Halifax?
Five British steamers and one tug were seriously damaged in the recent disaster at Halifax. I regret to have to add that the loss of life on these ships was also very serious, about two-thirds of the crews, so far as can be at present ascertained, having been lost. A few other British vessels were damaged, but only slightly.
Will these vessels be reported separately from the list of vessels sunk by the enemy?
Of course they are not included in any list of losses due to enemy attack.
Steamship Crews
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller if he is aware of the difficulty in obtaining sailors and firemen for steamers under requisition; that recently in the case of a steamer at Southampton, as men could not be obtained either in Southampton or London, they had to be obtained in Liverpool and sent from there to Southampton; whether he is aware that the crews of many steamers employed by the Admiralty and the Ministry of Shipping consist largely of other nationalities than British; and, if so, what steps he will take to meet the difficulty?
I have no information regarding the particular case referred to in the question, but it not infrequently happens that temporary deficiencies in the supply of seamen in one port are met by supplies from another port. As the engagement of crews for all vessels other than commissioned ships is done by the owners, such cases may not be reported to the Ministry of Shipping. The whole question of the supply of British seamen has for some time past engaged the serious consideration of the Ministry, and as the result of negotiation with shipowners and seamen's representatives an agreement has been reached which is now being worked out hi detail and which it is hoped will facilitate the transfer of men where the supply at any port is insufficient. I am aware that the crews of many British steamers at the present time, as in the past, consist largely of aliens. In the case of vessels on Admiralty service aliens are only allowed when British seamen are unavailable. It is hoped that under the arrangements referred to the employment of aliens in the British mercantile marine will be regulated and restricted to an extent justified by the numbers of British seamen available at any time.
Ship Loading
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he is aware that the ss. "H," of about 9,000 tons deadweight, was loaded at Montreal under the direction of the Admiralty overseas transport officer or other Government official, and that, having recently arrived at an English Channel port and discharged the cargo intended for that port, the steamer was so much out of trim that some 470 tons of wheat had to be provided and loaded in the after end to enable the steamer to proceed to a French Channel port, for which port she had on board some 4,890 tons of wheat and 142 tons of flour shipped at Montreal for France;, whether cargo other than wheat for this trimming purpose was not available; and whether, in view of the necessity for wheat in this country, he will see that better arrangements are made in Canadian and American ports for loading vessels which have to discharge at two or more ports?
This vessel was loaded not for France but for the United Kingdom. The breadstuffs were diverted to France in circumstances of war emergency, and it was accordingly arranged to send the vessel on to Havre, after discharge of the other cargo—oil, etc.—at Southampton. The wheat used for trimming was a parcel of seed wheat, the property of the French Government. Thus at one and the same time the vessel was trimmed and the use of a small vessel saved.
War Cabinet
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the import- ance of diplomatic action in the achievement of our war aims, he will now consider the advisability of including the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs as a member of the War Cabinet?
This is not considered necessary. Whenever it is deemed desirable my right hon. Friend attends the Cabinet.
Does it follow that the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has a right to be present at the War Cabinet?
It follows as a matter of fact that he is always there whenever questions dealing with foreign affairs are discussed.
War Aims
asked the Prime Minister whether the British Government is prepared to propose to the Allied Governments the immediate establishment of an Allied Convention to determine the method and procedure for the creation during the War of a permanent league of free nations; whether this is one of our war aims; and what steps he proposes to take to give permanent and tangible expression to the declared war aims of the Allies, including the principle of self-determination of nationalities, international arbitration, and limitation of armaments after the War?
I can add nothing in reply to this question to statements which have already been made.
Cabinet Labour Committee
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government Committee on Labour recently set up will have any executive powers, or if they will report to the several Government Departments concerned; what are the terms of reference to the Committee, and by whom they were determined; and if the Committee will deal with the question of the difficulty arising from the recent advances of 12½ per cent, to time-workers and the various extensions of that advance to other classes which have since had to be made to prevent disturbance?
The War Cabinet Labour Committee was appointed by the War Cabinet for the purpose of harmonising the work of Government Departments in the adjustment and settlement of labour questions. Administration will remain with the several Departments as hitherto, the function of the Committee being to guide the Departments as to the principles and the policy that should be followed. The Committee are dealing with the difficulty referred to in the last part of the question.
Can the right hon. Gentleman state how long it will be before the Orders are issued?
No; I cannot give any time, but it is being considered constantly at present.
Aerodrome Sites
asked the Prime Minister whether he will call on the Admiralty, the War Office, the Air Board, and any other Departments interested, for a Report on the number of landing-places-and sites for aerodromes which have been taken over by these various Departments and subsequently discarded; whether he is aware that it has been the practice for a single official with no knowledge of agriculture or afforestation or the requirements of the Food Production Department to commandeer vast tracts of land for this purpose; and whether he will instruct the Departments concerned that in future they will employ, for the purpose of commandeering these sites, a properly constituted committee, who shall inspect the sites before the same are commandeered, and which shall include representatives from the Food Production Department, the Board of Agriculture, the Air Board, and at least one pilot who is experienced in night flying?
The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the negative. With regard to the last part of the question, proposals are being drawn up for the creation of a Department under the new Air Ministry which will undertake the whole of the work hitherto done in connection with the selection of landing-places and aerodromes by the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service. I may add that as regards the Admiralty, the practice has been that before a decision is taken to commandeer a site representatives of the Departments referred to by the hon. Member are asked for an expression of their views. As regards the War Office, suitably constituted committees have inspected the sites before deciding to requisition them, and the requirements of food production and agriculture have invariably been considered before land is taken up.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there has been a waste of some hundreds of acres of corn, and that some £100,000 has been squandered by this more or less reckless commandeering; will he see that the commandeering is not done by individuals, but by a committee on the spot; and is he aware that the present method is for an individual to report and a committee to give a decision without the least knowledge, as they base their decision entirely on a report?
As regards the hon. Member's statement of facts, perhaps he will give me particulars. The present method is to appoint a committee which will have the whole responsibility.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say that the committee shall visit the sites, and not merely receive reports upon them?
The object of appointing a committee is to make sure that the harm to which the hon. Member refers is not done. I am sure that the Committee will take whatever steps are necessary to secure that end.
Boots Exported
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the export of boots to Switzerland, and whether in recent months this has increased; whether any recent consignments have gone to villages on the German frontier such as Kreuzlingen; and whether he is satisfied that none of these exports reach the enemy?
Nine thousand six hundred and seventy-nine pairs of boots and shoes, value £2,975, have been licensed for export to Switzerland during 1917. This amount is well within the amount authorised by the Allied International Commission in Paris. The goods in every case are consigned to the Société Suisse de Surveillance under guarantees against re-export to enemy countries, and for the most part consist of ladies' and children's shoes, the average value being only 6s. 2d. No consignments to Kreuzlingen have been licensed.
Air Force (Uniform)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Air Board what uniform allowance, if any, is to be made to officers of the Royal Flying Corps and Royal Naval Air Service, respectively, for the new Air Service uniform; and whether any day has been proposed for the formal introduction of this new uniform?
As regards the first part of the question, I am not in a position to add anything to the answer which I gave to a similar question by the hon. Member on the 3rd instant. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that he has never stated yet whether it is the intention to make an allowance for this uniform to the officers in question? In view of the fact that some have already had to change their uniforms once at the will of the authorities and received no payment for it, is it proposed to ask them to change it again and make no allowance?
I did not say it was not proposed to make any allowance. I said the position is not yet settled. There are a great many things more urgent than the question of uniform.
There may be more urgent questions, but these orders have been given, and the officers want to know where they stand, and that is essentially an urgent matter.
No orders have been given of any sort or kind.
It is time they were.
Internment Case
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware of the demonstrations held at Sheffield, Glasgow, Bowhill, Paisley, and elsewhere against the continued intern- ment of George Tchitcherine, and that many trades councils and trades unions have protested to the same effect; and whether he can now announce that some new departure will be made in the treatment of the Russian subjects now interned?
I have nothing to add to the statements already made in the House on this subject.
Will the Home Secretary consider making some definite statement upon the lot of these men before the Adjournment?
If the hon. Member attaches any importance to the question he had better hand it in in the usual way.
Munitions
Skilled Time-Workers
asked the Minister of Labour whether any representations were made to him regarding the unrest arising from the position of skilled time-workers which made it desirable to grant concessions to them, over and above the advances made through the awards of the Committee on Production; and, if so, will he give particulars of such representations?
The Ministry of Labour have been aware of unrest arising from the position of skilled time-workers, and the Ministry of Munitions have been endeavouring to deal with the subject. No special representations have been made to the Ministry of Labour.
Is there not an agreement in existence between the Engineering Federation and the Employers' Federation, and the bulk of the trade unions, by which questions regarding increases of wages should be submitted to the Committee of Production; and was that done in this specific case?
I must ask for notice of that question.
Wages (Clerical Staff)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the clerical staff in the national munition works or in controlled establishments have participated in any of the increases of wages granted to workmen in these establishments or are they receiving any war bonus; and, if not, will he inquire into the position of these people with the object of increasing their wages and so enable them to meet the increased cost of living?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Attercliffe, Sheffield, on the 13th December.
Sale of Intoxicants (Glasgow)
asked the Minister of Munitions whether the attention of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) has been called to the notices appearing in the windows of licensed premises in Glasgow that customers holding ration tickets and soldiers and sailors in His Majesty's uniform will be served with spirits and that others will be supplied with beer and wine only; whether the Control Board have sanctioned the practice of issuing liquor spirit ration tickets; if so, to what class of customers such a preference is given; and whether the Board approve the use of the King's uniform as a passport for whisky in this country while it is a punishable offence in America to sell spirits to soldiers and sailors?
The notices to which my hon. Friend refers are private notices. Sanction to display them has not been given nor is it required.
Is it intended to take any action in regard to these notices? Does the Liquor Board approve them?
I have stated that their approval is not required.
Has the Liquor Board no duty in the matter to see that no preference is given to a particular class of customers? The Government has already indicated that it does not desire that any preference should be given to any one class.
I am not aware that that duty has been laid on the Central Control Board.
Has the Control Board no control over the matter mentioned in the latter part of the question?
The last part of the question refers to the use of the King's uniform. That is not under the control of the Control Board.
asked the Minister of Munitions if he can state the number of licensed premises in the area surrounding the dockyards in Glasgow which have been placed under special control during the past year; the conditions laid down for the sale and supply of intoxicants in this area; and the results obtained from the new control policy?
One hundred and seventy-four licensed premises in the area in question have been placed under supervision by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic). A supervisor acting under the general direction of the Board advises the licensees of these premises as the special circumstances of the area may from time to time require. Information as to the general character of the control would exceed the limit of a Parliamentary answer, but I shall be glad to send my hon. Friend particulars. Reports from the naval and military authorities and the police show that the results are satisfactory.
Is it intended to extend that control to other areas, having regard to the satisfactory results obtained?
There is no such proposal at present.
Questions
Shipbuilding
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the output of merchant tonnage for November and December is the output of vessels launched or of vessels completed for sea; and whether there is any material difference between these outputs?
The output of merchant tonnage quoted by the First Lord includes only vessels completed and handed over to owners ready for service. As regards the second part of the question, launchings and completions, though bound eventually to be equal, necessarily fluctuate from month to month, but at the present time the rate of completions is ahead of launchings. Since the Admiralty Controller took over the building of merchant ships there has been a steady improvement in the relation between vessels launched and vessels completed.
National Trade Marks
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the steps taken to register the trade mark, Unis-France, as a national trade mark for productions which are genuinely French, made by French workers; whether, in view of the success which has attended the institution, eleven years ago, of the Irish national trade mark, he can state what facilities have been given to the Union National Inter-Syndicate des Marques Collectives, whose headquarters are in Paris, for the registration of the French national trade mark in the United Kingdom; and can he state what steps have been taken, by conference or otherwise, by the Allied States to promote the registration of distinctive national trade marks, with a view to securing a proper system of protection for goods which are the genuine products of the respective Allied nations, and at the same time a better system of statistical records, showing not merely the volume of exports and imports in particular countries, but the country of origin and ultimate destination of national products?
An application for the registration of the trade-mark, Unis-France, has been made to the Board of Trade under Section 62 of the Trade Marks Act, and is now under consideration. I am not aware of any formal steps which have been taken by conference or otherwise in reference to the registration of distinctive national trade marks.
Petrol Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, before licences to use petrol are issued or renewed, the Petrol Control Committee will consult local authorities, whose knowledge of local conditions and requirements would tend to remove or correct some of the existing irregularities and inequalities of distribution?
The assistance and advice of local officers of Government Departments is already obtained where neces sary in dealing with the examination of applications for supplies of petrol. The desirability of further local investigation will be carefully considered.
Military Honours
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether a circular has been issued to certain commanding officers requesting that recommendations be submitted to those under their command who should be included in the forthcoming honours list; whether such circular contains an intimation that no temporary officer should be so recommended; if so, will he state the reason for this distinction; and whether any temporary officers on home service in the Royal Engineers, Army Service Corps, Army Ordnance Department, or the Army Pay Department have yet figured in honours lists?
I have no knowledge of any circular debarring temporary officers from any reward for which they are eligible, nor of any distinction being made between those holding permanent commissions and those holding temporary commissions. Rewards at home are necessarily fewer than those abroad, and the decorations for which junior officers in the field are eligible are unsuitable for those at home. The institution of the Order of the British Empire and the removal of certain restrictions on Brevet promotion will place temporary officers at home in a more favourable position.
Hospitals in Private Houses
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, in any cases where private houses are put at the disposal of the Department as hospitals for soldiers, any payment is made by way of compensation; and, if so, will he state the basis on which such payment is made?
There are, I believe, some cases in which a private house has been placed at the disposal of the Department on the understanding that certain outgoings should be met. If the hon. Member has a particular case in view, perhaps he will let me have the details.
Indian Mutiny Pensioners
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he has considered the case of Indian Mutiny and other campaign veteran pensioners on whom the present high cost of living is inflicting hardship; and if he will take steps to obtain revision of the present scales and terms of their pensions?
I have already pointed out in reply to recent questions that the revision of the rates of Government pensions is a matter for the decision of the Government, and not for any one Department. But I will consider if it is possible to make an exception in favour of the special case to which my hon. Friend refers, where the pension is in the nature of a compassionate grant and lies-wholly outside the terms of the contract of service.
Defence of the Realm Regulations
National Council for Civil Liberties
asked the Horn Secretary whether he can now see his way to returning the property and the account books taken during the recent raid on the National Council for Civil Liberties?
I am informed that these articles have been returned.
Questions
Insurance Agents
asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the result of his interview with the representatives of the insurance companies; whether his efforts to persuade the companies to pay their agents a living wage have been successful; and if steps are being taken to carry out the recommendations of the Industrial Unrest Report?
My right hon. Friend had to-day interviews with the representatives of the insurance companies and of the insurance agents, and both parties have agreed to a Committee of Inquiry being set up, and have also agreed to the terms of reference. Steps are accordingly being taken to set up this Committee at an early date.
Housing (Scotland)
asked the Minister of Reconstruction whether he has received any representations in favour of the appointment of a separate Committee dealing with reconstruction so far as relating to housing for Scotland; and whether he will consider the advisability of recognising the particular needs of Scotland by setting up such separate Committee?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland to the hon. Member for South Edinburgh, of which I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.
Metropolitan Police (War Bonus)
asked the Home Secretary whether he is able to make a statement on the question of increasing the bonus to the Metropolitan Police?
The Commissioner of Police has recently represented to me that the rise in the cost of food and other necessaries is pressing heavily on the members of the Metropolitan Police Force, and that, in view of this circumstance and of the general rise in wages, the Metropolitan Police are entitled to a further increase in their remuneration. I have felt the force of these representations, and, after consultation with the Commissioner, have decided to increase the general bonus from 8s. to 12s. a week, and the children's bonus from 1s. 6d. to 2s. 6d. for each dependent child, the increase to take effect from yesterday. The decision will involve an increase in the Metropolitan Police rate, for which the sanction of Parliament will be necessary, and I propose to introduce a Bill for that purpose soon after the Recess. I am confident that the House appreciates the services so cheerfully and loyally rendered by the Metropolitan Police of all ranks during the War, and will be ready to give the necessary authority.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether in his Bill he would take into consideration the case of police pensions and the pensions of widows, who are also suffering in the same way, and whose pensions cannot be increased without legislation?
The hon. Member must give notice of that question?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the proposal will also extend to the Metropolitan Police in Dublin?
No, Sir. I am not concerned with that force.
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Ordered, "That the Proceedings on the National Health Insurance Bill, if under discussion at Eleven of the clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ Mr. Bonar Law .]
Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Non-Ferrous Metal Industry Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Prohibition against Dealing in Certain Metals and Ores without a Licence.)
(1) It shall not be lawful for any company, firm, or individual after the expiration of six months from the passing of this Act, or such longer period as the Board of Trade may in any particular case allow, to carry on the business of extracting, smelting, dressing, refining, or dealing by way of wholesale trade in metal or metallic ore to which this Act applies, unless licensed to do so by the Board of Trade:
Provided that the purchase of metal by persons for the purposes of use in their trade shall not be deemed to be dealing in such metal by way of wholesale trade where the trade carried on by the purchaser is not primarily the trade of dealing in metals.
(2) In the case of a company, firm, or individual with respect to which any of the conditions set forth in the Schedule to this Act apply, no licence shall be granted unless the Board of Trade are of opinion that for any special reason the grant of a licence is expedient, but save as aforesaid any company, firm, or individual carrying on or proposing to carry on such business as aforesaid shall on making application in the prescribed manner, and on furnishing such information and allowing inspection of such books and documents as may be reasonably required, and on payment of the prescribed fee, be entitled to a licence under this Act.
(3) A licence under this Act, unless suspended or revoked, shall remain in force until the first day of January following the date of issue of the licence, but shall be renewable annually, and the same provisions shall apply to the renewal of the licence as apply to the grant of a licence.
(4) The Board of Trade, if satisfied by evidence not before them at the time when the licence was granted that such company, firm, or individual is, or has become, subject to any of the conditions set forth in the Schedule to this Act, may revoke or suspend the licence.
(5) If any question arises between the Board of Trade and any company, firm, or individual, as to whether or not any of the conditions set forth in the Schedule to this Act apply in respect of the company, firm, or individual, the question shall, subject to rules of Court, be referred by the Board of Trade to the High Court for determination, and on any such reference it shall rest with the company, firm, or individual, to show that none of such conditions as aforesaid apply, and the decision of the High Court on any such reference shall be final, and no appeal therefrom shall lie to any other Court.
(6) Where at the expiration of the said six months or longer period allowed by the Board of Trade, or at any time when a licence expires, proceedings on any such application are pending in the High Court, the Court may, on application being made for the purpose, extend the said period of six months or longer period as respects that company, firm, or individual, or as the case may be, the duration of the licence, for such period as may be necessary to allow the question to be determined by the Court.
(7) References in this Section to the High Court shall in relation to Scotland be construed as references to the Court of Session.
The first Amendment, which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt), as it stands by itself would seem to be a negative of the Bill. I presume that it is to be taken in connection with some of the further Amendments on the Paper. Is that so?
The object of the Amendment which has been put down by my hon. Friend was not to negative the Bill but to alter its scope. As the Bill stands it provides that everybody who deals in these metals is to be licensed. The object of the Amendment is to limit the necessity of applying for a licence to those who come under the Schedule.
Would the hon. Member indicate the subsequent Amendments which are connected with this Amendment?
The Amendments, at the beginning of Sub-section (2)—[to leave out the words down to the word "unless," and to insert instead thereof the words "If for any special reason"]—and there are some consequential Amendments.
They would all run together?
That, I understand, is my hon. Friend's intention.
With your permission I beg to move in Sub-section (1) after the word "individual," to insert the words, "with respect to which any of the conditions set forth in the Schedule to this Act apply."
My hon. Friend in putting down this Amendment thinks that it is necessary in order to effect the objects of the Bill. These objects may be perfectly well attained by limiting the requirement in regard to licence to those who are indicated in the Schedule to the Bill, in which certain conditions are laid down. This will be a great advantage from the public point of view. A great deal of the opposition to this measure has been due to the fact that all those who are engaged in this trade are in future to be compelled to apply to the Board of Trade for licences, which are renewable from year to year. That is regarded as quite unnecessary for the purpose of eliminating enemy influence from these trades. All that is required, in the opinion of those who support this Amendment, is that those in respect of whom any suspicion of enemy influence or association might arise should be required to apply for a licence. If this Amendment is accepted then the necessity of applying for a licence shall be limited to this class, and a useless and oppressive requirement to apply for licences, on the part of all other persons who are engaged in this trade, and who in the great majority of cases are innocent of enemy association and influence, will be prevented.
I cannot accept this Amendment. It is quite clear that it would have the effect of altering completely the character of the Bill. What is intended in the Bill is that we should require everybody who desires to trade in these metals to apply to the Board of Trade for a licence. If those who make application do not come within the Schedule they are as a matter of right entitled to a licence. I cannot see where there can be any real objection to procedure of that kind. It is not intended to interfere in any way with the industry. It is only intended to make as certain as we can that those who do engage in this industry shall not come under German control. This Bill is the result of most careful study and investigation, and we have come to the conclusion that the form in which it is suggested is the best form which we can suggest. If those who apply for licences do not come within the Schedule they are automatically entitled to receive licences. If they do come within the Schedule then the Board of Trade will give consideration to the applications, and it will depend upon the circumstances whether the licences are granted or not. It must be obvious that unless the Board of Trade can investigate every particular case in order to determine whether it did or did not come within the Schedule it would be impossible to know whether it came within the provisions of the Schedule or not. In refusing to give favourable consideration to this Amendment I do not desire the members of the Committee to feel that we are not going to consider other Amendments which would have as their object the improvement of the Bill.
I regret very much that my right hon. Friend has made so unfavourable a reply to my hon. Friend's Amendment. There is a great deal more to be said for it than he sees. He cannot understand what possible objection there can be on the part of a trader in these metals to come to the Board of Trade and ask for a licence, but every trader has an objection to go to the Government about his business if it can be avoided. The last thing in the world that the traders of this country want is to have a Government Department meddling in their business. The general complaint all over the country at the present time is that the Government is interfering too much in business, and there is a rooted objection to this. The traders of the country feel that this Bill in regard to the particular trades which it affects, means the direct interference of the Board of Trade in every trade that is concerned. That is the objection to the Bill, and if the right hon. Gentleman does not understand it he does not understand the opposition to it in so many parts of the House, and he does not understand the distrust of the measure which even those, who may be willing as a war measure to take any steps that may be necessary to root out enemy influence, still feel in regard to the prolongation of this measure after the War. The object and effect of the Amendment would be this, that it would be only in suspected cases that the Government would have the power to interfere, but in all those other cases where there is a desire on the part of the Government to meddle with the traders, we wish to see this Amendment apply. The right hon. Gentleman says that the trader to whom I refer would automatically get his licence, but I do not think he is justified in using that phrase. I think that nobody automatically gets his licence. He has to apply for it, he has to submit evidence in regard to his business, and he has also to pay a prescribed fee of unknown magnitude. All that can hardly be described as obtaining a. licence automatically. Nobody really will receive a licence automatically. The effect of the Amendment however, would be that those who as a matter of course receive the licence would not have to apply to the Board of Trade, but in all other cases in which Government interference might be desirable there would have to be this application for a licence, and the Government would have power to interfere. I submit to the right hon. Gentleman that the power to interfere in all the cases dealt with in the Schedule would be all the powers the Board of Trade really require in the matter, and I think it would ease the passage of this Bill, and greatly soften the opposition to it in the minds of traders, if a more favourable reception were given to this Amendment. There is a great desire among people to carry on their business, while being interfered with as little as possible. As this Amendment, tends in that direction I shall certainly support it.
I think the President of the Board of Trade would be well advised if he accepted this. Amendment, for it seems to me that, if carried, it would remove a strong objection to the Bill. It would give the Board of Trade absolute control, and would do away with that civic Socialistic power which strives so much to interfere with trade and business—an interference which, is objected to by British traders in this country. The President of the Board of Trade has told us, I have no doubt perfectly honestly, that this is a form of Bill which has been carefully investigated by the Board of Trade, who decided that it was the only tolerable Bill, but I think they should not interfere with everybody's business, scrutinising every detail in order to ascertain whether they are genuine British traders or not. Human nature being what it is, we must look very carefully into this proposal framed by Departmental officials. We all know that every Department wishes to have the greatest possible power, to be worked by themselves, because it gives greater scope for their activities. They genuinely believe that all their activities are for good, and in putting forward a Bill to deal with this subject they choose the form of Bill which will give their activities the greatest scope though, at the same time, so far as the traders of the country are concerned, involving them in the most irritating inspection.
It is all very well to say that anybody can apply for a licence automatically, but we have had from the President's speech to-day an actual example of what will really happen. Everybody will have to submit proof that he did not come under the Schedule, and he will have to look down the list of shareholders, which necessarily must involve a very exhaustive scrutiny into accounts. For instance, if a single share is held by a German, the firm becomes suspect, and to discover whether shares are held by an enemy trader, or enemy association, must necessarily involve careful scrutiny; so that the trader, however thoroughly British he may be, when he has to apply for his licence, and has to go before the officials of the Board of Trade, will be subjected to the irritating interference of the permanent officials of the country. If this Amendment is carried there will be no irritating interference whatever with legitimate trading. The person who will be interefered with, and with whom I think we have a certain right to interfere, is the man who is suspect. He will have to apply for a licence, and if he does not and goes on trading without a licence, then he comes under the penalty Clauses of the Bill, and will be dealt with. Put the onus upon the foreigner, when he comes forward and applies for a licence; do not let us have this form of goody-goody Socialism, of which we have seen so much lately, but let us have what the majority of this House desire, this simpler form which the Amendment proposes.
If this Amendment be accepted it will defeat the whole object of the Bill. The last hon. Member pictured to us the trouble which persons who come under this Bill would be put if they had to go to the Board of Trade to show that they did not come within the Schedule. He said that they would have to scrutinise the list of shareholders to see if there was a single share held by an enemy subject. As I understand this Amendment, it throws the burden of considering the question whether a trader comes under the Schedule upon the Board of Trade. In other words, the individual would have to settle whether it comes within the Schedule, and in order to ascertain whether he does, he applies to the Board of Trade for a licence—that is to say, if the individual is going to do his duty, he ought to subject the shareholders' list to that close scrutiny which the hon. Member thinks to be so troublesome. I prefer in regard to a question of that kind to trust to the duty of scrutinising his list of shareholders being put upon him by statutory obligation, rather than to his merely performing the duty of looking through a shareholders' list in order to ascertain whether he should apply for a licence or not. If he has got no reason to scrutinise the list, it does not seem to me that he is put to any great additional trouble. As the measure stands, everybody entitled to deal in these metals will have to be licensed. There are penalties, and everybody who makes a false statement with the object of obtaining a licence is subject to those penalties. It would be extraordinarily difficult to impose difficulties if you did not require that everybody should be licensed. If you leave it to the consideration of individuals as to whether they are to apply for a licence or not, there will be difficult cases, cases on the line, in which it would be exceedingly hard to interfere; whereas, under the Bill, it is a matter for the Board of Trade to judge as to whether an individual does come within the Schedule or not. I may state that in this matter I have had conversations with metal dealers in Glasgow, who are an important section of the metal dealers of the country, and they are prepared to accept this Bill. They feel that they themselves require some help against the Metallgesellschaft of Germany, and that being so, they will be willing to accept this Bill, which, it appears to me, does propose by far the most efficient method of carrying out the object in view, that everyone, innocent or not, should be required to apply for a licence. Leaving the person to judge for himself as to whether he should apply for a licence or not would mean that those precise cases that you want to take hold of would be the precise cases which would escape, because the individuals affected would take very good care to do something which brought them just on the line of this Bill, and something which would make it exceedingly hard to put penalties upon them.
4.0 P.M.
There is one consideration which I do not think my right hon. Friend has had in his mind. The people that he wants to come and apply for a licence, and to prove that they are not under enemy control are the people, most of them, who have been controlled by the Government for some time past. They are being controlled now, and have been for years. They are a bit tired of the whole proceeding, and they only endure it because it is necessary or supposed to be necessary for the country. They cannot be under enemy control now, so that until the end of the War there is absolutely no necessity for these people to come and say, "We are not under enemy control," since you know they are not as they are under yours, and there is not the slightest opportunity of them departing from it. I cannot buy metal now from a Glasgow metal merchant, and he cannot sell any to me, as all that must be done through the Government. If Parliament insists, of course they will have to do it and make this application, but when you are vexing and annoying people, and you must know that the feeling amongst these manufacturers is strong and in many cases very bitter, why do you exaggerate it? What you want to control is metals after the War. I agree with you and I will help you to do so, but this is not the right way. I quite understand why my hon. Friend (Mr. Mackinder) approves of it. There was a meeting of some of these associations recently, and after the meeting was over it was said, "This is the first little bit of Protection we have got." The Metallgesellschaft is like King Charles's head in this business, you are all frightened to death of it. Why should you be frightened of it? The men at the front are not frightened of Germany. You think you can control metals being dealt with in England, but you cannot do anything of the kind. You must control metals at their source, and you cannot control them in any other way. The Metallgesellschaft was clever enough to get control of certain supplies in Australia, in your own colony. It was not a German bank that financed them, but the Union Bank of Australia. Are you going to put an embargo upon the banks engaging in these transactions, upon British banks, and upon Imperial banks? You had better begin and try. All that I would say to the right hon. Gentleman is this: Get your control in the right way. Arrange with America and with Australia and with Canada, and all the Metallgesellschafts will not stop you having control if you do that. I am afraid there is something else in this, and I do not think hon. Members deny it. This is not a bonâ fide Bill. My right hon. Friend admitted to me the other day in the House of Commons that he had advanced 3,000,000 dollars to the British-American Nickel Corporation—
On a point of Order. May I ask is this not a Second Reading speech?
I think it is going a little beyond the question of the Amendment, which is that a different scheme of licensing from that proposed in the Bill should be adopted.
I am very sorry if I trespassed, but I was endeavouring to show why the present British manufacturers should not be forced to take out licences. That is the subject matter of the Amendment, and surely if I can show that they are not being bonâ fide asked that is a matter to influence the Committee in its decision. I will not, however, pursue that aspect of the matter further. All I would say now is that you are going absolutely the wrong way about this business. Do not worry these men. You have worried them quite enough already. They have not been able to obtain metals from you except in driblets, and all through they have been put to the greatest trouble, some of which may have been necessary. Still, you have given them annoyance, and you are giving the traders of the country very great annoyance. You will gain your object if you say to them after the War, "We know you and we do not want you to get a licence, but all those who are suspect or likely to be must take out a licence." If the people go on trading not taking out a licence you will be able to find out what you want from the register at Somerset House or by paying a shilling and searching their own register. It is better that you should take that trouble than put the men to the trouble of applying for licences with all the vexation and trouble that involves.
My hon. Friend who has just spoken says that the Government are going to put the traders and manufacturers of the country to very great annoyance by this Bill, and that amongst the manufacturers there is a strong and bitter feeling against control. He begged the Government not to worry the manufacturers by further restrictions. I do not know on what authority he claims to speak on behalf of the manufacturers. I have been asked to represent on this Bill the Federation of British Industries, which is an organisation 01 the great body of manufacturers in the country and representative of manufacturers of all kinds. People who are smelters of non-ferrous metals and every class of manufacturer is represented in that organisation, which employs collectively considerably more than two thousand millions of capital in their businesses. I venture, to think I have some real authority to speak for manu- facturers, and I have been asked to state that the manufacturers of the country approve of the principle of this Bill.
Have they done so by resolution?
They have, and I read the resolution to the House on Second Reading. I venture to think my hon. Friend is a little mistaken in the statement which he has made.
Does the hon. Gentleman say that I do not represent manufacturers?
Not on this Bill.
All I can say is that I have a more intimate connection with the actual men who are affected by this Bill than my hon. Friend.
If I may answer my hon. Friend, the head of his particular firm was with me for the greater part of yesterday, going in detail through this Bill and through the Amendments to this Bill, and accompanied me with others to a deputation to the President of the Board of Trade, and I think I am quite authorised to say that he approves of this Bill.
That is not what he told me.
Mr. TERRELL rose—
This is getting rather a domestic matter. Hon. Members should keep to the question as to whether everybody should have to apply for a licence or only the persons defined in the Schedule.
I am sorry to have infringed on the Rules of the House, but I am afraid I was tempted to do so very much against my will by the interruption of my hon. Friend opposite. There is not going to be any serious difficulty, because there are some Amendments to come up later on, and which I hope the President may favourably consider. They deal with the point of making application for a licence only once during the period. If that is conceded, I think the whole objection raised by this Amendment falls to the ground.
I think the Committee is indebted to the hon. Member for the Camlachie Division (Mr. Mackinder) for so clearly putting the issue. He has pointed out that this Amendment really is a matter as to whether questions have to be determined by the Law Courts or by the Board of Trade. I accept the issue at once. I am surprised to find that he is a supporter of leaving the decision to the Board of Trade. I have a distinct recollection that we had some indignant eloquence in former days from the hon. Member against removing matters from the purview of the Law Courts. In those days I was greatly impressed by his arguments and sometimes I joined in his protests to the displeasure of my party chiefs and Whips. Now, after being converted to the hon. Member's views, I find him deserting me and a convert to the virtues of bureaucracy and throwing the Law Courts aside. I am surprised that he should, even for his Protectionist policy, be prepared to scrap the Law Courts of this country. It is surely preferable that a question of this kind, which he said might be on the border-line, should be left to the free and independent decision of the impartial tribunal of the Law Courts than to the decision of an official of the Board of Trade. That raises a sufficiently important issue, and one upon which we can receive the sympathy and support of hon. Members who are not trammelled in any way with any connection with the Government, a connection which has many ramifications in this House. That issue will arouse a sufficient amount of sympathy and support to justify us in going to a Division.
I think this is a somewhat unreasonable proposal brought up by the Board of Trade. If this were carried it would absolutely nullify Clause 2. We know that the Government are themselves interested in the non-ferrous metal industry. We had an answer from the Under-Secretary on December 12th to a question by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, to the effect that the Government had advanced 3,000,000 dollars to the British-America Nickel Corporation, Limited, subject to certain conditions as to control. If they control the business, I suppose that that means they are in the business? Of course it is quite reasonable if the Board of Trade are in a business that they should like to see what everybody else is doing. Under Clause 2 they are to be enabled to search anybody's books who are in this non-ferrous metal business.
I think this Amendment worthy of the consideration of the Government. There is a very great feeling of distrust abroad as to the desire of the Government to retain after the War the powers of inspection and interference with trade which they have been granted, and granted very freely and willingly, during the War, and for the purposes of the War. I quite accept the principle of the Bill, which is that persons who are now enemies and who in future may be enemies should not trade in these metals without the knowledge, consent, and authorisation of the Board of Trade. But I really do doubt whether it is necessary for that purpose to do what is done in the Bill as it appears at present, namely, to give the Board of Trade complete control over every Englishman who is a dealer in these metals or has anything to do with them. I myself do not think that there will be any difficulty if this Amendment were accepted, I do not say in its present form, but in principle this Bill, and in any future Bill which it may be necessary to introduce for the same purpose—that is, that Englishmen should be allowed to deal as they like, and go on their trading without Government interference or Government inspection or knowledge of their business the same as they have done in the past. All interference should be confined to those persons who, for some reason or other, are possible or liable to cause the country injury at some future time, and whom, therefore, it is necessary to provide against. I know it is said that will not be possible to find out, but, after all, there are organisations the moment anything of that sort arises which do take an interest in such matters. I think there are possibly even Members, and people calling themselves parties in this House, who will be very pleased to go and inquire at Somerset House with a view to discovering anybody dealing in non-ferrous metals, whether they are of enemy origin or have any connection with enemy firms. Therefore for the purposes of the Board of Trade really this Bill or some other Bill of the same kind is required. But the proposal made by this Amendment is really doing what they want. It would not be open to the very grave difficulty and the very grave objections of this present Bill when anything of this nature is applied to trade. I do not suppose that the Government can at this moment accept this Amendment, though I would press it strongly upon their consideration. I would ask them to consider the position and difference in this proposal. They should realise this fact, that the officials of their Department—and nobody is superior altogether to the officials of his Department—from the nature of the case, prefer the plan of this Bill to the plan of the Amendment. Therefore every Minister and everybody concerned with it is under constant, daily, and hourly pressure from his Department to do what they—with the very best intentions in the world, and with the knowledge of their own very great abilities—because there are no more able men than the officials of these Departments—wish to do to get the veto in order that they may be able to feel quite sure that they can carry out the objects which the Government have at heart. We cannot expect them to appreciate the faults and difficulties of their action. You must expect them to expect very much greater results from their action than is really going to be the case. I would press this Amendment, or one similar in character, on the consideration of the Government.
The explanation given by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade of the reasons for adhering to the proposals of the Bill and not considering the proposals of the Amendment were, if he will permit me to say so, scarcely convincing. He told us that the Amendment would in itself transform the machinery of the Bill. That is self-evident. It does transform the machinery of the Bill—but, indeed, that is again no reason why the Amendment should not be made. It does raise a very serious issue, namely, whether or not British traders, of British birth, of no enemy associations, people with no works outside the United Kingdom, with no customers outside the United Kingdom, buying from firms here, and selling to firms here, whether they shall or shall not be entitled to trade except by permission of the Board of Trade. It is not sufficient for the President to tell us that British firms in that position will get a licence by right. British traders and manufacturers are entitled to carry on their business, not by permission of any Government, but by the right of being British citizens. The issue that is raised at once by this Amendment is one of the first occasions when we have a chance of challenging in the House of Commons the right of the Board of Trade definitely to control purely British industries. I raise no objection at this stage to the necessity of licensing foreign firms. Indeed, if you are to have complete control of the metal industry, I think you must control it, as some of us said on the Second Reading, from its source downwards. You will be far more effective in your control if you control it at its source than by merely controlling the metal merchant in Glasgow or in London. That is really the important point at which control should begin. But if this class of control—that is to say, trading purely by licence—is not to be applied merely to this district, but to everybody. My right hon. Friend did not explain why that was necessary in order to make his Bill watertight. I think you will never make it watertight until you control the source and origin.
The hon. Member for Camlachie said he was authorised by the metal merchants of Glasgow to say that they were quite prepared to trade under licence. I think my hon. Friend overlooked the fact that this Bill is not restricted merely to merchants. Every smelter is bound to have a licence, every refiner, every extractor of ores; the whole of these are to be licensed and only to trade subject to licence. If that system of licensing British trade is to be carried further, it means we shall not be free from Government control when the War is over. When I say "we," I mean we of purely British origin and trade who have mo desire whatever to enter into trading relations with those who have been our enemies, and who are absolutely entitled within our own borders to conduct our business without the permission of any Government official. Other issues are raised, which are bound to be again and again, if this class of legislation is, to go on. One is whether or not the right to trade is to be left to purely bureaucratic control. It is not the question of merely saying that Parliament prohibits this or that. Large powers of discretion will be left to the Board of Trade. I have had some experience of the Board of Trade. I believe there is no more upright staff of men to be found than the officials of this Department. But how can we be sure that the officials of this Department will not be ordered to do things of which they themselves cannot approve? The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, I am sure, would operate this Bill, if he remained in office, with absolute uprightness. I would not suspect him in any way or in any direction. I am sure he will acquit me of any suspicion of that kind. But we do not know for how long we shall have the Board of Trade under his control. We do not know that the present officials are going to continue only under his orders. We do not know the future. We do not know what openings there will be for dealings with the Board of Trade, for persuading the Board of Trade, for giving information to the Board of Trade. Lobbying and "corridoring," which is not uncharacteristic of some other countries, will be created under this system. If we have to work under this system let us narrow it down to the necessary, and no further than the necessary, area. If my hon. Friend by his Amendment means that all licensing is to be wiped out of the Bill, I venture to say that on the Second Reading, that having been given by the House, it would be contrary to the principle which has been inferred for us to cut out the powers of licence. I believe, however, there is no necessity for it in order to obtain the object in view. My main object in rising was to support the Amendment in so far as it relates to purely British firms, to purely British businesses, being under the necessity of going to the Board of Trade to ask whether they may or may not trade.
This discussion would appear to me to a very great extent to be unreal, so far as the substance of the matter is concerned. What is contended—and rightly contended—is that there shall be no unnecessary interference with British companies, firms, or individuals. These are the provisions of the Bill. Those who criticise Clause 1 should, in fairness, make themselves acquainted with the second part of the first Clause, which provides, in express terms, for everybody who does not come within the Schedule. It says:
"(2) In the case of a company, firm, or individual with respect to which any of the conditions set forth in the Schedule to this Act apply, no licence shall be granted … but save as aforesaid any company, firm, or individual carrying on or proposing to carry on such business as aforesaid, shall, on making application"—
"Shall," not "may."
"shall, on making application in the prescribed manner, and on furnishing such information, and allowing inspection of such books and documents"…
Hear, hear.
I note those cheers; but I would ask hon. Members to note the next five words—
"as may be reasonably required."
Will the Solicitor-General tell us who, in the last resort, is to be the judge of what is reasonable?
I should imagine that in the last resort it would be the Courts of law—
"as may be reasonably required, and on payment of the prescribed fee be entitled to a licence under this Act."
In other words, those who do not in some way or other come within the terms of the Schedule shall be entitled to a licence under the Act. It may be said, if they are entitled to a licence, why apply for one? For this reason: To ascertain whether companies, firms, or individuals do, in fact, come within the limitations set out in the Schedule, it is necessary that everybody should apply. Seasonable inquiries can then be made, so that it may be discovered whether those concerned have enemy capital or the business is likely to be under enemy control, or there are enemy associations. How are these matters to be ascertained? They can only be ascertained by examination of the facts, and it will not be possible to examine the facts unless all persons have to make application for a licence. The object of the Bill as a whole is precisely the same as the object, the avowed object, of those who are supporting this Amendment. A great grievance has been mentioned, and it might be expected from what has been said that some of the persons who are undoubtedly concerned had raised objections. An interesting commentary upon that suggestion is that, from the inception of this matter, the Board of Trade has not received any objection to this Bill from any representative association whatsoever. I repeat that this is an unreal opposition. The right hon. Gentleman who spoke last permitted himself to say that, at some future time, in circumstances which he did not indicate, there might be some sinister influences operat- ing upon the Board of Trade. If that suspicion is really the ground of this Amendment, I cannot imagine anything which condemns it more.
I am sorry I was not here to move the Amendment on the Paper, but I am very glad to see it has been moved, and I am sure very ably moved. I put this Amendment on the Paper entirely on my own motion. This Bill is a Bill to prevent any person of a certain character from dealing in non-ferrous metals; in fact, as we know, the Bill is aimed at one particular person. But the Bill professes to give other persons complete liberty to deal in non-ferrous metals, and it would be a very monstrous thing if anyone proposed to deprive them of that liberty. Those innocent persons are required to obtain from the Board of Trade a licence to do a thing which has been the right of every Englishman from time immemorial, and I see no reason whatever why the obtaining of a licence should not be confined to those persons who, for the purpose of this Bill, are described as non-innocent. The learned Solicitor-General gave a very simple explanation, and it was that, if it is necessary to sift the sheep from the goats, you have to get every kind of cattle into the pen, first of all, to see which is which. I thought that that was what the explanation would be, and I hope the public will realise what this kind of legislation means.
I would ask the Solicitor-General to remember that it may be quite true that the persons connected with this trade have not raised any objections to this Bill, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer told us definitely on Second Reading that this was the sort of measure we might expect to have applied to other trades. Therefore, when we are discussing this measure, those who are interested in other trades are just as much interested in seeing right and proper principles applied to this trade as are the people engaged in this trade. How do we know that a Bill on exactly similar lines may not be introduced to extend this measure to very different trades than those with which this Bill is expressly concerned? There seems to be no reason whatever—and I have heard none from the learned Solicitor-General—why you should not confine the licence to persons of doubtful character. The only alleged reason is that it would be slightly more difficult for the Government to trace out offenders against the law. On the other hand, look at the difficulty of compelling all these people to take out licences. First of all, you run a certain amount of danger of creating a vested interest; you always do with legislation of this kind. We are told it is only a Ministerial act. That may be so; but, unless the licences are going to be sold at the Post Office, you always run some sort of danger of pressure in the office. You raise questions of the right of people who have got a licence to obtain that licence year after year, and see to what you are subjecting every English trader! Under Clause 2, which is made applicable to every person who asks for a licence—
And every year.
Yes, and at any time, and his friends, his solicitor, his banker—everyone who knows anything about it—because of the mere fact of his having applied for a licence, can be obliged to come before the Board of Trade and make a clean breast concerning any man who wishes to be a licensee. So far as I am concerned, I propose to press this Amendment to a Division.
I have listened to the whole of this Debate with an absolutely open mind as to the merits of the Amendment. Indeed, there are some portions of the Bill to which I take strong objection, and others of which I approve. I think the Committee has to keep in mind, in considering this Amendment, that we are really dealing here with dealers in the essentials for the preservation of the nation. It does not apply to all industries. The only question, as I understand, which is raised by this Amendment—the House have accepted, rightly or wrongly, the principle of the Bill—is, Are all the people dealing in these metals to be included, or only the firms which may be suspected of enemy control? That is the point before the Committee. I agree with what some hon. Members have said as to the growing detestation of Government control. I think there is a danger almost from the bureaucracy which is being set up, and I sympathise with that view; but, at the same time, if the House is determined that in future we shall not have a condition of things such as prevailed at the beginning of the War, if, in short, we are to learn something from the War, we are only taking the first step for our own preservation if we take care that such a condition of things will not happen again. The Amendment seeks to limit the application for a licence to the Board of Trade to firms that have enemy taint or enemy control. The position of the Government is, in order that we may get to the very root of this matter—in order, in short, that, the Bill shall be a living thing, and not an empty piece of legislation—we shall know, in the first place, all the people who are concerned in the industry. I take it, that is a very important point in asking for the licence, because they will know in future all who are dealing in these metals. If you accept this Amendment, you may have scores of people throughout the country—they may be perfectly innocent, if you like—who, if they are British, will not be within the official cognisance of the Board of Trade. It is important in matters of such moment for the very existence of the nation that the Government Department should know who are controlling, British or German, those important trades.
All companies and private firms have to put that upon their stationery now.
That may be so, but we are not going to risk a position of things in the future that existed at the beginning of the War. We are not going to leave it to an official of the Government looking after the notepaper of any particular firm. I do not think that deals with the matter seriously. There is the further point that a company may be a complete British company at the begining of the year when it has to register, but within three months the control may be obtained by a nominee of the enemy. [An HON. MEMBER: "Next year!"] But for nine months the enemy may be in control. I say the object of this Bill is to see that Germany shall not have the influence in these matters after the War that she had at the beginning. I maintain that this Amendment will interfere with that. I maintain that if we are really determined that that position of things shall not occur again, we ought to give the Board of Trade all support in trying to secure that object. It has been said there is enormous resentment prevailing among the particular trading community represented here in having to apply for a licence. To apply for a licence, which means sending a letter to the Board of Trade, and asking for a licence, which is to be automatically given! [An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] If my hon. Friend will allow me, I say which will be automatically given, after, I take it, the inspection of the share register. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] Well, the House of Commons is not controlled by the Board of Trade, and if there is any of this irritating inspection, and a desire to get at the important and secret facts of a British business, of course the House of Commons will rightly resent it. As I understand, all the essential books that would be necessary in a case of this kind would, in fact, be the share register. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] At a later stage, if no one else does, I shall be prepared to bring forward an Amendment on those lines. To suggest that, in order that Germans shall not secure our vital essentials in time of war, people who are interested in this matter will refuse to make the necessary representations to the Board of Trade, is surely to misrepresent the patriotism of these people.
Would the right hon. Gentleman apply the same rules to the food supply?
I do not agree that that is an analogy. I am dealing with this purely as a war measure for what I regard as self-protection. Let us understand where we are. Are those who are opposing this Bill in favour of Germany having full control of our industries, as she had at the beginning of this War? We have been told by a representative of the Government, the late Minister of Munitions, that the operations of this country were materially handicapped at the beginning of the War because of the penetrating influences which Germany had in controlling these things in this country.
I am really afraid we shall get back to a full Second Reading Debate if we are not careful. The only question is the method of achieving a certain object. That is the sole question open to us now. The Bill proposes one method, and the hon. Member who moved the Amendment proposes an alternative method of achieving the object. Let us keep to the question whether one or the other is more effective.
I appreciate your ruling, and it was the interruptions which drew me away from the very limited point before the Committee. I maintain that a door would be open to the operation of firms controlled by our present enemies, and that the Board of Trade could not be so effective in its supervision if every person had not a licence. For that reason I shall support the proposal in the Bill.
I rise to say a few words on the speech of my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. My right hon. Friend is always very lucid, and generally very persuasive, but to-day he was very unconvincing, and the fact is he rather opened my eyes to some of the dangers of me proposals contained in the Bill, because he read from it passages to which I had not given particular attention, not having any special interest in the class of interest affected by the Bill, and those passages showed me very clearly that the Bill opened up a very serious vista of Government interference with the industries of the country. It is not merely a question of a man saying, "I deal in this particular substance, and I want a licence," and then getting it automatically. He has to expose all his affairs to investigation by a Government Department, and there is nothing the average business man likes less than having to expose his business affairs. It is a thing which is really not unaccompanied with danger. Certainly, if I were engaged in any industry and subject to having Government officials claiming to see my books, and to learn all about my concerns, ascertaining exactly where I disposed of my goods, how I managed my works, the markets I obtained the goods from and sent them to, I should very much object to it. You have no right, without adequate reason, to ask any body of traders to give such information. Although I agree with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade in having very great respect both for the ability and sense of honour of our regular officials, we must be aware of the fact that at the present moment we are not under the rule solely of regular officials, but we have all sorts of people in these positions, some of distinguished ability and experience, like my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade himself, some of inferior ability, and some with no ability at all. We know perfectly well, too, that they include people of the highest character and people of very ordinary character.
This is the beginning of a new policy which will not stop at dealers in non-ferrous metals. If we are going to have this sort of Government control, I can assure the Government it will raise a storm among the business community, of whom my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel) in one part of his speech expressed appreciation, while in another part he quite inconsistently derided them. You will raise a storm from the business community which will surprise you if you do this. You will also require such a staff at the Board of Trade that it is very doubtful if you will be able to find the people to do the work. Certainly it will not be possible to get a sufficient number of competent people. It is perfectly unnecessary that British subjects, never suspected of any dealing with the enemy, although in the past such dealing has not been deemed criminal, but doing business in a small part of the British Isles purely with British subjects, should be subjected to the indignity and humiliation of being brought before a Government official, of being obliged to answer any questions which that official thinks he may reasonably require to be answered, and be compelled to produce his books and documents. I say to demand such a thing is about the most outrageous proposition I ever heard of. And yet this sort of thing is going on. What we shall require most of all after the War will be a revival of our industries; and if you think you are going to continue the present Government control, then such a revival will be impossible. Businesses cannot be worked under Government control, and this sort of procedure will simply paralyse industry. This is not a mere detail in the Bill; it is a matter of principle which is involved. It is a policy which the Government propose to extend all over the country—throughout the realms of industry—and I hope the House will refuse absolutely to adopt it.
We seem to be spending a long time on one Amendment, and if other Amendments are to be treated in the same manner it will be long ere the Bill gets through. I cannot help thinking that the great majority of the Members of this House really approve of the Bill, and I am going to offer to the right hon. Gentleman a suggestion which I hope may overcome the difficulty. I can quite realise that in many cases people will take exception to their books being gone through by all sorts of under officials of the Board of Trade. There is no doubt that all through the country people engaged in trade are in favour of the Bill, and if that be so, why should Members of the House of Commons take such great exception to it? I make this suggestion with all deference, that the right hon. Gentleman should appoint an Advisory Committee of well-known people connected with these verious trades who know the people with whom the trades are carried on and with whom they have to work, and I suggest that, generally speaking, that would be the best body to recommend to the Board of Trade those to whom licences should be granted. If the President of the Board of Trade can see his way to adopt that course, it would, I think, overcome a very large proportion of the difficulties with which we are now faced. I notice that the suggestion has been received with ironical cheers, which I take to mean that it would enable people engaged in the trade to inquire into the trade secrets of their competitors. I quite see that that is a difficulty which has to be faced, but I cannot help thinking that reliance could be placed upon the majority of business men engaged in this class of trade to do their work fairly, and an Advisory Committee composed of such gentlemen would be as good a solution of the difficulty as any I can think of.
This is a system being set up to enable a limited number of people to create a trust in these things. Universal licensing means that everybody who enters into the business will have to go to the Board of Trade and satisfy the officials that they do not trade with enemy associations, and so on. It is presumed that those who can satisfy the officials of the Board of Trade by other means will not need to have their books examined. I suggest, however, that it will become the duty of the Board of Trade to examine the books of every individual who applies, and if that be so, does the President of the Board realise the extent of the staff of competent accountants it will be necessary for him to employ? It will involve an enormous increase in the already far too large staffs of Government controllers, and it will equally involve an enormous interference with business generally. Suppose somebody wishes to enter into this business for the first time. When he applies for his licence he will have no books he can produce. He will never have done any business with enemy firms, and may not desire to do so, but he will not be allowed to enter the business unless he can satisfy the Board of Trade. How, then, is he to induce the officials of the Board of Trade to grant him a licence? There are all kinds of danger involved in this proposal. The system which would be set up by the Amendment of my hon. Friend as an alternative to the Government proposal would cause any person who had enemy associations and enemy shareholders to carry on his business subject to the danger and liability of being exposed by those in competition with him, and certainly of early detection. Such persons, of course, may be expected to apply quite freely for their licences. But why should genuine English persons be compelled to undergo all the trouble involved in this Order for universal licensing? I believe one effect of it will be the creation of a "corner" in these things on the part of privileged firms engaged in the business. It will have a tendency in the direction of cartels and trusts. It will squeeze out the small people already in the trade, and it will prevent new persons entering, while it will put the British consuming public at the mercy of "corners."
There is a disposition on the part of some Members to quarrel with the amount of time which has been occupied in the discussion of this Amendment. I do not think it has occupied any too much time, because it involves a very fundamental change in our laws and an interference with the liberties of the people. An hon. Member just now suggested that only a perfunctory knowledge of an applicant would enable the Board of Trade to issue the certificate asked for. But Clause 2 gives the Board of Trade most ample powers of examining the applicant, and I should like to read the words of that Clause. They are:
I think the President of the Board of Trade will agree that there could be no more comprehensive powers granted—that there could be no more inquisitorial examination into the details of businesses in this country. It is not merely a question of a perfunctory examination of a person's business; it is an inquisitoral inquiry of a most formidable character; and even though it may be modified in the way suggested in the Amendment it will still effect a breach in the fundamental laws of this country. We are apparently engaged in a revolution, and it is a revolution not from autocracy to democracy, but from democracy to autocracy. I take it that a revolution involves a sudden reversal of policy, but we are reversing our policy in the wrong way; we are neglecting to take note of what has occurred in other countries and to profit by their experience. This will open the door to intrigue and bribery. There is no question about that. To-day we have officials of a very high character, and the reason that we have such officials is because we interfere as little as possible with the liberty of the subject in these matters. If we are going to interfere in detail in this way it will immediately open the door to intrigue and corruption. The right hon. Gentleman may not be aware that we are interfering, with the fundamental laws of this country. From Magna Charta downwards this right to trade freely has been given to our traders. I would like to remind the Committee of that, because by these measures we are frittering away the fundamental laws of this country. This is what Magna Charta said. I will not read it in Latin, but I have it here if any hon. Member wishes to see it. I will read a translation:
I will not repeat any of the arguments which have been used, but before we come to a vote I should like to ask the President of the Board of Trade for a little guidance and a little light as to the reasons for which we are to give a vote. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General, in arguing against the Amendment, laid stress on the point that it would practically knock out the operation of the further enactment in the second section of the Bill enabling the Board of Trade to call for a most comprehensive examination of the books of anyone engaged in this trade, and, if I understand it rightly, not merely the dealers but others. The inference I draw from that is that the Department suspects not only a particular firm, not only the Members who support the view which this is supposed to be chiefly aimed at, but the whole trade, and if the President of the Board of Trade will tell us that that is his ground for refusing the Amendment some of us, of course, will be put in a rather difficult position. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel)—I do not know whether quite wittingly—rather stressed that side of the matter. He pointed out that a firm might actually get its licence under this Bill, having shown its books, and yet though all its members were ostensibly British subjects—there was no "enemy taint," as the phrase goes—that firm might immediately afterwards proceed to enter into enemy connection. When a Member in the position of my right hon. Friend urges that, when at the same time the learned Solicitor-General stresses the extreme importance of the power of examination of the books of all the men in the trade, patriotic Members are compelled to ask themselves what is the fundamental case of the Government but this—that they suspect the trade in general, and that they feel we shall be in danger unless the Board of Trade has its finger on every side and aspect of the trade? That seems to me to be essentially the appeal that the Solicitor-General makes. He spoke of a quality of unreality about the Debate. To me the unreality seems to centre in the Bill, because if that is the attitude of the Government in the matter we ought to get something far more drastic than this Bill. As has been said, you have no hold over the firm once you have given it the licence. You suspect them all, and nothing will satisfy you except a complete examination of all their books, yet the moment you have given the licence they will be able to do the thing that you suspect they may have done in the past. You need for that purpose not merely the power to examine their books. I put this as a query—as I wish for guidance: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to expand his Bill at the point of examination of books to the extent of proposing that the Board of Trade shall have the right of continued inspection by its inspectors of these books?
I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman has not read the Bill or the Amendment Paper, or he would see that those questions are to come up on subsequent Amendments.
I merely wanted guidance as regards voting on this particular Amendment.
Question put, "That those words be-there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 80; Noes, 148.
Division No. 137.] AYES. [5.10 p.m. Anderson, W. C. Hudson, Walter Robertson, Rt. Hon. John M. Arnold, Sidney Jacobsen, Thomas Owen Robinson, Sidney Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter (Dewsbury) Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) Jowett, Frederick William Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Kenyon, Barnet Shortt, Edward Bentham, G. J. Kiley, James Daniel Smallwood, Edward Bethell, Sir J. H. King, Joseph Smith, H. B. Lees- (Northampton) Bliss, Joseph Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Boland, John Pius Lynch, Arthur Alfred Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Brunner, John F. L. Macdonald. J. Ramsay (Leicester) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Burns, Rt. Hon. John MacVeagh, Jeremiah Tennant, Rt. Hon. Harold John Buxton, Noel Maden, Sir John Henry Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Chancellor, Henry George Mallalieu, Frederick William Toulmin, Sir George Clough, William Manfield, Harry Wedgwood, Commander Josiah C. Davies, David (Montgomery, Co.) Marks, Sir George Croydon White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) Mason, David M. (Coventry) Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Millar, James Duncan Wilkie, Alexander Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Molteno, Percy Alport Williams, John (Glamorgan) Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Morison, Hector Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) Gelder, Sir William Alfred Nolan, Joseph Williamson, Sir Archibald Gilbert, J. D. Nuttall, Harry Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Wore, N.) Helme, Sir Norval Watson O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Wilson, W T. (Westhoughton) Hemmerde, Edward George Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse) Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) Henderson, John M, (Aberdeen, W.) Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding) Yeo, Alfred William Hiil, Sir James (Bradford, C.) Raffan, Peter Wilson Yoxall, Sir James Henry Hinds, John Rendall, Athelstan Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. H. Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Hogge, James Myles Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Holt and Mr. Pringle.
NOES. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Higham, John Sharp Archdale, Lieut. Edward M. Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Baird John Lawrence Colvin, Col. Richard Beale Hope, Harry (Bute) Baldwin, Stanley Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hughes, Spencer Leigh Banner, Sir John S. Harmond- Cory, James Herbert (Cardiff) Hunt, Major Rowland Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Cowan, Sir W. H. Hunter, Major Sir Charles Rodk. Barnett, Capt. R. W. Craig, Col. James (Down, E.) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Barnston, Major Harry Croft, Brig.-Gen. Henry Page Jackson, Lieut.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.) Crooks, Rt. Hon. William Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Beach, William F. H. Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Beck, Arthur Cecil Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Kellaway, Frederick George Beckett, Hon. Gervase Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Bellairs, Commander C. W. Denniss, E. R. B. Knight, Capt. E. A. Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Bigland, Alfred Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Lee, Sir Arthur Hamilton Blair, Reginald Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Lindsay, William Arthur Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T Griffith- Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Boyton James Fletcher, John Samuel Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Brace, Rt. Hon. William Gardner, Ernest Loyd, Archie Kirkman Brassey, H. L. C. Gibbs, Col. George Abraham M'Calmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A. Bridgeman, William Clive Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Brookes, Warwick Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Mackinder, H. J. Broughton, Urban Hanion Greig, Col. J. W. Macleod, John Mackintosh Bull, Sir William James Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich) Macmaster, Donald Burdett-Coutts, W. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Butcher, John George Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Cator, John Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) Macpherson, James Ian Cautley, H. S. Henry, Sir Charles (Shropshire) Maitland, Sir A. D. Steel Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hewart, Sir Gordon Malcolm, Ian Clive, Col. Percy Archer Hewins, William Albert Samuel Marriott, J. A. R. Clyde, J, Avon Hibbert Sir Henry F. Meux, Admiral Hon. Sir Hedworth Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Prothero, Rt. Hon. Rowland Edmund Walsh, J. (Cork, South) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Pryce-Jones, Col. E. Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Randles, Sir John S. Wardle, George J. Newman, Major John R. P. Rees, G. C. (Carnarvonshire, Arlon) Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Weigall, Lieut.-Col. William E. G. A. Nield, Herbert Rothschild, Major Lionel de Whiteley, Herbert J. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.) Palmer, Godfrey Mark Shaw, Hon. A. Wilson-Fox, Henry Parker, James (Halifax) Spear, Sir John Ward Winfrey, Sir Richard Parkes, Sir Edward E. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Sir A.H. (Asht'n-u-Lyne) Yate, Col. C. E. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Starkey, John R. Young, William (Perthshire, East) Perkins, Walter F. Stewart, Gershom Younger, Sir George Pete, Basil Edward Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) Philipps, Maj.-Gen. Sir Ivor (S'hampton) Thomas-Stanford, Charles TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Lord Philipps, Sir Owen (Chester) Tickler, T. G. Edmund Talbot and Capt. F. Guest. Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words, "passing of this Act," and to insert instead thereof the words, "termination of the present War."
The Solicitor-General told the Committee on the last Amendment that we were engaged in an unreal discussion. I think this Amendment will be a very good test as to whether this is or is not a real Bill, because the effect of this Amendment will be to bring this Bill into force six months after the termination of the War. We have been told that the exact termination of the War will be determined by Statute hereafter. The position at present is that under a series of restrictions and Orders under the Ministry of Munitions the Government actually control the whole of the metals which are dealt with in this Bill. I do not want to go into the details of the actual restrictions, but I have copies of them all here, and I cannot think that the President of the Board of Trade will question me when I say that the Government have now absolute control of the metals, nor will the right hon. Gentleman doubt me when I say that it is probable the Government under their present powers will probably keep control of those metals for a few months after the War. What this Amendment suggests is that if this Bill is to be passed it should not come into force until six months after the date that is defined hereafter as the date of the termination of the War.
I cannot see why the Government want to bring in a Bill like this two or three days before Christmas which is to come into force six months hence, because they have already got full powers for dealing with these matters. The Government have only themselves to blame if people think there is some reason for this Bill that is not apparent on the surface. If this measure is merely to deal with the situation after the War, and with the German menace, why is it being forced on now at the end of the Session at a time when it is apparent to anybody that strong feelings are being roused about this measure? It is all very well to say, as the Solicitor-General has told us, that no body of organised opinion has protested against this Bill. I have no doubt that that statement is absolutely correct. I should not have expected a body of organised opinion to send any protest, but this House has to consider not only organised opinion but victimised opinion. It may be that the people you are going to be hit by this Bill are small parties of individuals, and not people who can sway great exchanges and chambers of commerce. I think it is undesirable to quote the opinions of chambers of commerce and exchanges without having been present at their deliberations and without having heard their reasons and seen the circumstances under which their resolutions were come to. I do not think it makes the smallest difference as to whether the Government have received many protests or not. The question is whether the thing is right or wrong, whether this is the proper time to do it, or whether it may be perfectly well done at a considerably later stage. What reason can the Government give for desiring that this proposal should come into force during the War? It will not give them any further control over the metal trades. I wish the President of the Board of Trade would tell us later on what reason there really is for bringing in this Bill now, and putting it into force before the War is over, that is, if he is not prepared to accept my very reasonable Amendment, which will give him everything he can possibly want.
There are many points in the Bill that give rise to acute controversy, but this point ought to give rise to no controversy, because it is clear that in such time after the War as the Government continue to keep control of these metals there can be no difficulty whatever in the Government dealing with this question. The Statute would be passed, and it would be a great advantage that, although it would have been passed, it would not actually have been put into force, and if the terms of peace and the discussion of those terms made it desirable to make some sort of modification in a Statute like this, we could adopt our locus pœnitentia with a great deal more dignity than if we brought it into force six months hence. I object to bringing in any Statute in this country aimed at people directly or indirectly with whom we are at present fighting which really depends entirely for its results on whether we are victorious or not. It is not English to rush into legislation of this sort without the slightest regard for the feeling which it is going to create. I do not yield to anyone in this House in my desire to see the state of affairs that existed before the War altered as regards these metals. I am not in the least obsessed with the Free Trade idea upon a question like this. I am not opposing this Bill in the least because I think it is some theoretical contravention of Free Trade, but I am opposing it on grounds which I propose to set forth. Here we are dealing with a question that is absolutely apart altogether from the actual merits of the Bill at all, and I think we might have some guidance from the President of the Board of Trade, or from the Leader of the House, as to why this Bill is to be put into force at the date provided for regardless of whether the War is over or not. If the President of the Board of Trade really wants to take this Bill seriously as being a post-war measure, or as a measure enabling steps to be taken now to set up some great metal trust to get rid of some competitors—if this measure is really for the first object I have mentioned and not for the second, I think it would very much assist the passage of this Bill if the right hon. Gentleman would give us an assurance that it had no such object as the one I have stated, and I hope he will show that he wishes this measure simply to assist in controlling these metals after the War by accepting what I suggest as a very reasonable Amendment.
I am sorry that I must refuse to give favourable considera- tion to this Amendment. I should have thought it would have been quite obvious that the powers conferred by this Bill should become operative possibly during the War, but certainly within six months after it becomes an Act of Parliament. To accept the Amendment would mean that the powers would only come into operation at some distant date after the War has come to an end, and that would simply mean that we should find ourselves in the trying period when peace comes about in the position of not being prepared to meet the demands in so far as these particular metals are concerned. We should find this powerful German combine there on the ground ready to continue its efforts. That combine was well organised before the War, and they did their work exceedingly well. Our view is that that combination is a menace to the welfare of this country and to the Empire. That combine happens to be German, and it is a combination which had the control of these metals before the War, and the fact that they have proved that they can take control of most of these metals proves that this combination is a menace to the country and the Empire, and we must take steps to see that that combination is broken up so fair as this country is concerned.
The object of this Bill is to give our traders an opportunity now, while the War is on, to prepare for the reconstruction period, so that when the control of the Ministry of Munitions comes to an end you will find yourselves prepared for securing that the flow of these metals into this country will go on without interruption. I think we should rightly be charged with failing to take advantage of the circumstances if we did not take such steps as are necessary to secure that these metals, which are so vital to every industry in this country, are removed from the control of this great German company and brought directly under the control of purely British undertakings. By this Bill, I think, we shall secure an adequate flow of these metals into this country immediately after the War.
There are some Amendments in the name of my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hemmerde) which I can support, although I cannot vote for this one. I will not enter into the merits of the Bill now, because I have already said a good deal about that. Inadequate as I think this Bill is, if anything is to be done, at any rate steps should be taken at the earliest possible moment. The reasons for taking this Bill before Christmas and suspending the Eleven o'clock Rule to pass other important Bills today, although they are known to the Leader of the House and the Chief Whips, have not been disclosed to us. There may, however, be reasons for using such time as we have at our disposal in this way, and my complaint is that we have not time to do it adequately.
I can quite understand my right hon. Friend not accepting this Amendment. He wants to do it now, although it cannot possibly come into operation until after the War. I think he admits that. I can quite understand his object and the Government's object in getting it now, because the Division shows that if it had not been for the number of friends tied to the Government the last Amendment would have been carried. I cannot see why there should be this rush. You have got control of the metals. The whole of this anxiety must be based upon something else. Why is there all this hurry? You have got control of the metals. Why not put in a definite period, such as the termination of the War, instead of this indefinite period of six months or so much longer as the Board of Trade may determine? My right hon. Friend says that you must not at the end of the War have this lack of metals and this German control of metals which you had before the War. It has been demonstrated ad nauseum that the statement that they had control is absolute nonsense. The Minister of Munitions has admitted it. It is really only a little colour to help this thing through. This syndicate say that they will not put up the money until this Bill is passed I do not think anybody can deny that they are anxious to see this Bill passed in order that they may get on with the negotiations for the syndicate. If my hon. and learned Friend goes to a Division, I shall support him.
My hon. Friend has made a very strong statement, for which I think he ought to put forward evidence without any further delay. So far as I am concerned. I have not heard of any syndicate or trust, and it would alter my opinion with regard to this Bill if my hon. Friend could bring forward any evidence to show that there is some ulterior motive behind it. Personally, I do not believe a word of it. The Government would not deserve the respect of anybody if they brought forward a Bill to further the interest of any syndicate being formed. I hope the Government will tell us whether they have heard of any syndicate or whether they are going to be any parties to any syndicate. I am certain that they are not going to create anything in the nature of a British trade corporation to deal with the matters dealt with in this Bill. I feel certain that the thought of assisting any syndicate by bringing forward this Bill has not occurred to them. My hon. Friend has referred to the enormous amount of opposition shown on the last Amendment in the Division Lobby. Does my hon. Friend really think, after the experience which the country has had and after the War in which we have been engaged, that people are going to oppose any Government that is going to make our position more secure in the future against the menace of Germany? Is that his view? I totally and entirely misunderstand the feeling of my fellow-countrymen if any portion of them share the views that he has expressed. This country can never be the same after our experience of Germany and the brutalities and the fiendish cruelty of Germans.
What has that to do with the Non-ferrous Bill?
This is too serious a matter to joke about. The hon. Member who suggests that we should treat the whole situation after the War in the same way as before the War and that the House of Commons should refuse to give the Government responsible for this country—being better prepared in future to fight Germany than it was before—the power which they say is necessary to kill this German menace, incurs a very grave responsibility.
The President of the Board of Trade let fall a phrase which I think requires a little further enlightenment. He talked about people in this country having time to get ahead before the end of the War—I cannot quite recall the words, but they were something to that effect—and it would ease the mind of the House a great deal if he were to get up and say definitely that there was no syndicate at the back of the measure. I am quite sure that a great deal of the opposition and trouble with which the Board of Trade have to contend would vanish if he would get up and make that statement.
I can understand the surprise and indignation and horror with which my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Sir H. Dalziel) views any suspicion of corruption in connection with the present Government, but there are some of us who do not take the same view either of the practices or of the character of the Government. Consequently, we are not so satisfied on primâfacie grounds that it might not be guilty of something in the nature of what the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson) has described. It may be within the recollection of the Committee that during the Second Reading suggestions were made that this Bill was put forward in the interests of a syndicate, and that evidence was also given that the Government itself had had dealings with one corporation known as the British and American Nickel Corporation. Subsequently, in answer to a question put by the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire, it was admitted that to the extent of 3,000,000 dollars they were interested in this undertaking. All the evidence with regard to it shows that it was a hopeless failure, and a total waste of the taxpayers' money. The suggestion has been put forward that the syndicate, or syndicates which are going to be protected, are in consideration of the passing of the Bill to take over that bad investment of the Government. We have had no definite statement from the Treasury Bench upon these matters. I made the suggestion very definitely on the Second Reading, and, although we had the advantage of a reply from so competent a gentleman as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, no light was shed on this interesting problem. Under these circumstances, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs, is too rash in his total rejection of any suggestion of the kind. It really does not help the calm and dispassionate consideration of this measure to have upon every occasion eloquent denunciations of Germany and of German brutality during the War. This is quite a different problem. We are considering what should be the conditions for the management of this business after peace has been declared. Nobody in this Committee desires to see Germany in control of these industries after the War. The sole question is how best in the national interest to prevent that being brought about.
I am surprised at the conclusion reached by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) on this particular Amendment. He says that he cannot support it. His ground seems to be somewhat fallacious. He said that if the Government were doing it in the right way he would advise them to do it now. But as they are doing it in the wrong way he is equally in favour of them doing it now. I should have thought, had he believed that they were doing it in the wrong way, he would have supported the Amendment, and prevented them from doing it as early as possible; in other words, that he would have been anxious to put off to the remotest possible date the wicked line embodied in this Bill. Apart altogether from the merits of the Amendment, my right hon. and learned Friend opposite (Mr. Hemmerde) has given an absolutely sound reason for postponing the date of the Bill coming into operation. During the War all these metals are absolutely under the control of the Government, so that this Bill can have no effect whatever upon the industry during the War. This is not a war measure; it is an after-the-War measure, and the Bill itself should be clearly drawn so as to indicate that it is an after-the-War measure. As it stands, it is to come into operation six months after the passing of the Act, or for such longer period as the Board of Trade may in any particular case allow. It is left somewhat vaguely, and no reason whatever has been given for allowing this discretion to the Board of Trade. I do not understand why the dircretion should be allowed in particular cases. Apparently the Board of Trade cannot postpone it generally, but only in relation to particular minerals. It seems to me that, as it is purely for the purpose of trade after the War it need not be brought into operation; during the War. If the Bill is passed it gives security that it will operate when the period of peace arrives, and that, in so far as it affects German interests, it will be brought to bear upon those interests at that time. The President of the Board of Trade has failed to give any reason for the Bill in its present form, and I hope my hon. and learned Friend, as he has a good Amendment, will stick to it, and once more divide the Committee and show, apart from those who sit on the Front Bench and those who are dependent upon the Government, that the House will not support this Bill.
I wish to say that the suggestion that has been put forward that this Bill has anything whatever to do with the British and American Nickel Corporation, is absolutely fallacious.
I never said that it had.
I suggested it.
The hon. and learned Member for North-West Lanarkshire suggested that there was some connection between this Bill and this particular corporation.
Perhaps I might make it perfectly clear. I suggested that a syndicate was going to be formed in connection with this Bill which would take over the liabilities of the Government in connection with the British and American Nickel Corporation.
There was a suggestion, I think, from both hon. Members that the present Government had something to do with the British and American Nickel Corporation. I want to say, quite frankly, that, whatever it was, the arrangement was made prior to the present Government coming into office.
I knew that!
I know that my hon. and learned Friend knew; and I want to say that, so far as the present Government are concerned, they know nothing whatever of any proposal by any syndicate to take over any interest in the British and American Nickel Corporation to which reference has been made. Nor has this Bill been framed or formed with the idea of helping any syndicate whatever. I wish to give that emphatic denial. The object of the Bill is to enable British traders who are genuinely carrying on trade in non-ferrous metals to be licensed to carry on that trade, and to carry it on in such a way that we may have control of it when the War comes to an end. I hope my hon. and learned Friend will be satisfied with that statement and will withdraw the Amendment.
I want to ask two or three definite questions. I heard the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary, answering the accusations that have been made. I want to know, Is it or is it not in the contemplation of the Board of Trade that the passing of this Bill is to be followed by the creation of a British Metal Syndicate under Government patronage? I do not say anything about the British and American Nickel Corporation. That is a perfectly definite question. I want to put another definite question with regard to something more that has been stated in this House. Have certain people who are going to be concerned in such a syndicate informed the Board of Trade, or any Department of the Government, to the knowledge of the Board of Trade, that they could not form that syndicate unless one particular firm was eliminated? I am not making those statements myself, but they have been definitely made, and upon them I think we are entitled to definite answers. I do not see why we should be put off discussions upon these questions by the electioneering speeches of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir H. Dalziel). It is not a question whether he is more patriotic than we are. Because a man shouts more about the War, it does not mean that he is more patriotic. It is intolerable that we should be bullied in this way, when we are dealing with a question like this, by well-known, whole-hearted supporters of the Government who can never keep the fact that they are supporting the Government to themselves. I have personally supported all three Governments with absolute loyalty, but I think this Bill is the most pernicious measure ever brought into this House.
Surely we are entitled to an answer to the hon. and learned Member's question, which raised a very important matter?
I am quite prepared to give an answer at once. I thought that an answer had been given. Let me say now that it is not contemplated that, arising out of this Bill, a syndicate will be formed under Government patronage—nothing of the sort! Let me be quite clear on this point. I do hope, as a result of this Bill when it becomes an Act of Parliament, that it will afford an opportunity to English traders to establish themselves in a sufficiently strong position so that they may do two things. One is to supply all the metal that is required in this country to encourage the development of the resources within the Empire, and to keep out the intrigues and the metal connected with the Metallgesell- schaft of Germany. That is what I hope will be accomplished. I trust I have satisfactorily answered the question.
I am sure the right hon. Gentleman meant to answer my question, but he will remember I also put a second question. He says that it is certainly his hope that British manufacturers will be able to combine to supply the country with metals afterwards. I do not put the matter in an offensive form at all. I do not object to a combination. What I asked him is whether it is a fact that he or his Department has had any statement made to them to the effect that such a combination is impossible unless, by means of a Bill like this, a certain firm is put out of business?
I thought I had made the position perfectly plain. I desire to make it as clear as I can possibly make it. May I put the position in this way? We have no part in any syndicate of any kind or description. Let me say at once that it would be impossible, in my opinion, for all the various individuals and the small companies who are engaged in the metal trade in this country for themselves alone, without any arrangement among themselves, to successfully compete with the Metallgesellschaft and its connections after the War. I hope that they will be able to make such arrangements so that they will have the resources and the financial strength to carry on the metal industry after the War, and so that all the industries which require these metals will be adequately supplied. That is the position.
That is not an answer to my question.
Let me go on. It is quite clear that if an organisation of that kind is to be formed, it is necessary that this great German combination, which has controlled these metals prior to the War, at least should not be in a position, with all its vast resources, infinitely greater than anything we have got, to make it impossible for our undertakings to successfully establish themselves in competition with this great organisation. I think it is our duty—I am putting this quite frankly to the Committee—to see that British industry and that British traders are given an opportunity of establishing themselves, so that they can in the future, when this War comes to an end, carry on this great undertaking to meet the demands of the industry so that particular industries will not be under the menace of the Metallgesellschaft. That was the position prior to the War. We have been dependent upon the Metallgesellschaft, this great German combination. We have not been able to compete with them; they have been too powerful for us. It is absolutely necessary, on the one hand, that we should restrain the operations of this great German combination in this country, and, on the other hand, that we should give our people an opportunity of establishing their trade in competition with that great undertaking on a sufficiently sound and secure basis to meet the demands of the industry after the War.
I regret to say that the right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question in particular. Now I will put it quite definitely. Does he think that organisation of British industry is inconsistent with the existence of the firm of Henry R. Merton and Company? Secondly, I ask him, has not that company, under his supervision, put itself upon a basis according to which it will be absolutely impossible for the Metallgesellschaft or the Metall Bund to have control over it?
I do not know whether I am keeping myself to the point before the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes!"] I have been very careful during the whole of the Debate, both on the Second Reading and on this particular stage of the Bill, to refrain from saying anything in connection with any firm or any individual connected with the metal trade in this country which might be prejudicial to their interests. I feel that, in the circumstances, for me to make any statement now reflecting upon the conduct of anybody would be very unfair. If this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament, Merton's, if I may refer to that particular firm, and everybody else engaged in this industry, will have an ample opportunity of presenting their case when they come to ask for a licence. It would be wrong at this time to say anything which would in any way prejudice their position when that time comes. I do not think that either I or anybody speaking on behalf of the Government have at any time made the slightest reflection upon any individual or upon any firm. I propose, so far as I can do it, to use the greatest care in saying anything on that matter—I realise the difficulties of the position—which might be construed at any future time as indicative of the policy of the Board of Trade, because they have no policy with regard to any individual firm, and we are leaving these matters to be determined at the right time, when the firms come forward and make an application for a licence, and when they will have a full opportunity of presenting their case to the Board of Trade.
This is perfectly intolerable! I am extremely glad that the President of the Board of Trade is so very frank with the Committee. Not only do we get in this Bill an extreme example of Protection under the guise of keeping out German traders—that has never been so frankly expressed before—but apparently we are to take this opportunity of constituting in this country a complete iron-bound trust for the metal industry. The advocates of Protection up to now have never ventured the statement that the formation of such an iron-bound trust as this was within their purview. But here, at one swoop, by the passing of this Bill, we are going to form, with the benevolent approval of the Board of Trade apparently, a trust in the metal industry which shall be free from all competition, and which will, therefore, be able to charge the consumer whatever price the trust likes. This is the formation of trusts with a vengeance. They have sprung up in the United States behind a tariff wall under certain difficulties, but here we are presenting the nation with the finished article complete. Further, that we are to be told that the President of the Board of Trade is not to tell the Committee whether the firm of Henry R. Merton is to be allowed a licence or not, so that the Board of Trade should be able to bargain with that firm, and should be able to practically blackmail that firm into accepting the terms of the syndicate which is to be formed, seems to me to be perfectly outrageous. If they are not to come in, tell them so, but to tell them that they will come in if they satisfy the Board of Trade means putting them at the mercy of the combination which is to be formed. Surely that is not the intention of this Committee or of any honest body of citizens in this country. The law is not meant to be applied to individuals to force them to accept certain things. The law should be of general application, and the more general the application the better it would be. This law seems to contravene the canons of good legislation laid down by statesmen in the past.
The Amendment before the Committee is to leave out the words "passing of this Act" in order to insert the words " termination of the present War," and the effect of it would be to leave the whole subject undiscussed, unprotected, and undealt with until the period of six months between the end of the War and the coming into operation of the Bill. In the course of his observations, my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Hemmerde) first put two questions to the President of the Board of Trade. He received in answer to one, which was satisfactory, and then, not being satisfied with the answer to the second question, he put two more questions and categorically named a certain firm. This led to an excursus by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Commander Wedgwood) on matters all and sundry. If we are all in favour of taking some measures—I notice that every speaker says he is, and this is not a Second Reading Debate—would it be possible for us to discuss the Amendment now before the Committee? Although my hon. and learned Friend's cross- examination has been so unproductive, might we not leave him on his next Amendment to go on with it, when I have no doubt he will administer more questions to the President of the Board of Trade, and then see whether or not the Amendment before the Committee is worth having? Those of us who come back to consider it, will see if you are going by the Bill, imperfectly according to some, and more perfectly as others think, to deal with this question at all, one ought to respect the consensus of opinion of the late President and the present President of the Board of Trade that something should be done now. If that is so, it seems unfortunate that we should leave the operation of the Bill to begin after the termination of the War, which is a very uncertain time, and that we should not at once give those persons who are engaged in the metal industry some sort of opportunity to take steps so that we shall not have this menace of enemies acting and co-operating against those who are, as loyal citizens, anxious to conserve the metal business for this country. It is a comparatively short point, and I suggest that we should deal with the matter now, particularly as on both sides of the Committee there is a common feeling that this Amendment is not worth introducing into the Bill.
6.0. P.M.
I should like to make matters a little more clear. I understand from my right hon. Friend that this six months or such longer period as this combination may require to be formed is really at the bottom of this Bill. If that is so, it means that what I have said is practically true. If I have exaggerated, I am very sorry. My right hon. Friend has admitted the$3,000,000. Will he tell the Committee what has become of these$3,000,000, or who is going to take over the script or stock or debentures which are held for them? If he will do so, it will probably clear the atmosphere. It seems to me that we ought not to give this time and leave this open for a particular purpose. There is nothing to hinder any syndicate getting together at once, if it wants to, and making a corner in the metal trade, but when you get that combination you may find yourself just as bad as you were before the War because they may hold up the metals unless you keep your control of the metals at the source. I invite my right hon. Friend to clear up that matter of the 3,000,000 dollars. Where is it? What is it? And how can it be dealt with?
I hope the President of the Board of Trade will not bother about the 3,000,000 dollars just now. I am sure most of us are quite content with what he has said. Take the Amendment. It seems to me that Henry R. Merton, or whatever the name of the firm is, would be in a far better pass if they knew with in six months after the passing of the Act whether they required a licence or not and did not have to wait until six months after Peace, because that is the only relevance of Henry Merton and Co. on this Amendment. How is the question of the 3,000,000 dollars going to settle the question as to whether the coming into operation of this Act should take place as proposed in the Bill or should be postponed till six months after the Act, on the merits of the question, it seems to me that to delay a thing of this kind, and not let anyone know whether he is to be licensed, not until the termination of the War only, but until six months after the termination of the War is, to repeat a phrase used from the other side, outrageous—to put it mildly—from any business point of view. This, surely, is a business and a practical question; and I should have thought, from the business point of view, it was obvious that there must be a period of preparation and of informing the people some time before it really comes into active operation, rather than suggesting that you can do it, so to speak, by turning a handle any time you like immediately after the termination of the War. Therefore, I sincerely trust this Bill will be kept as it stands.
The Committee is indebted to my hon. and learned Friend opposite for making it clear that this Bill is business.
Of course it is.
And it is precisely because it is business that we regard this Amendment as important. What is the object of the Bill? It has been put quite clearly and frankly by the President of the Board of Trade—to have this Bill in operation as early as possible, so that the syndicate which is in contemplation for the protection of British trade in these metals may be able to get its capital and bring itself into operation at the earliest possible date. If you postpone it there are political risks. This Government may, perhaps, fall. If it is only at the end of the War that this is to come into operation, when another Government has come into power, no vested interest will have been created, and there will be nothing to prevent another Government sweeping all this away. We see their eagerness now to get this Bill through, why the Eleven o'clock Rule is suspended, and why it could not be referred to a Select Committee, so that this may be done speedily. If it is, you may have your vested interests and prevent any other Government, which has views against Protection, cartels, trusts, and combines, from having anything to do with the business. That is the object. I hope my hon. and learned Friend will insist on dividing on the Amendment.
I moved this Amendment in all seriousness, and I shall certainly ask the Committee to divide upon it. Certain statements were made in the Second Reading Debate about which I have tried to elucidate the facts. I am bound to say, after my efforts, I am perfectly convinced that this Bill is the beginning of a most undesirable state of things. I propose to ask some further questions on another occasion about the authorship of the Bill. I think when one has got answers to some other questions the House and the country will be even more surprised than they will be after the answers we have had now.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 165; Noes, 68.
Division No. 138.] AYES. [6.6 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Foster, Philip Staveley Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Archdale, Lieut. E. M. Gardner, Ernest Nicholson, William G. (ePtersfield) Baldwin, Stanley Gelder, Sir W. A. Nield, Herbert Banner, Sir John S. Harmood Gibbs, Col. George Abraham O'Conner John (Kildare N) Barlow, Montague (Salford, S.) Goulding, Sir Edward Alfred O'Neill, Capt. Hon. H. (Antrim, Mid.) Barnett, Captain R. W. Greenwood, Sir Hamar (Sunderland) Ords-Powlett Hon. W. G. A. Barnston, Major Harry Gretton, John Palmer, Godfrey Mark Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick, Burghs) Hall, Lieut.-Col. Frederick (Dulwich) Parker James (Halifax) Beach, William F. H. Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord C. J. (K'ton) Pearce, Sir William (Limehouse) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hardy, Rt. Hon. Lawrence Perkins Walter F. Bellairs, Commander C. W. Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) pete Basil Edward Benn Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Henry, Sir Charles Philipps, Maj.-Gen. sir Ivor (S'ampton) Bentham, George Jackson Hewart, Sir Gordon Pollock, sir Ernest Murray Bethell, Sir John Henry Hewine, William Albert Samuel Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Bigland, Alfred Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Pryce-Jones, Col. E. Blair, Reginald Higham, John Sharp Randles Sir John S. Blake, Sir Francis Douglas Hill, Sir James (Bradford, C.) Rees G. C. (Carnarvon, Arion) Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Roberts, sir S. (sheffield Ecclesall) Boyton, James Hope, Harry (Bute) Robinson, Sidney Brace, Rt. Hon. William Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Rothschild, Major Lionel de Brassey, H. L. C. Hope, Lieut.-Col. J. A. (Midlothian) Rutherford, Col. Sir J. (Lanes., Darwen) Bridgeman, William Clive Hughes, Spencer Leigh Samuel Rt. Hon. Sir Harry (Norwood) Brookes, Warwick Hunter, Major Sir Charles Redk. Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur Broughton, Urban Hanlon Illingworth, Rt. Hon. Albert H. Shaw Hon, A. Bull, Sir William James Jackson. Lieut.-Col. Hon. F. S. (York) Spear, Sir John W. Burdett-Coutts, W. Jones Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Stanley, Rt.Hon.Sir A.H.(Asht'n-u-Lyne) Burn, Colonel C. R. Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) starkey, John R. Cator, John Jones, W. Kennedy (Hornsey) Stewart, Gershom Cautley, H. S. Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Cawley, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick Kellaway, Frederick George Thomas-Stanford, Charles Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Tickler T. G. Clive, Colonel Percy Archer Knight, Capt. E. A. Walker, Colonel William Hall Clyde, J. Avon Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Walsh; Stephen (Lanes., Ince) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Layland-Barratt, Sir F. Ward A. S. (Herts, Watford) Coats, Sir Stuart A. (Wimbledon) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Wardle George J. Colvin, Col. Richard Beale Lindsay, William Arthur Watson, Hon. W. (Lanark, S.) Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Weigall, Lieut.-Col. William E. G. A. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Weston, J. W. Cory, James Herbert (Cardiff) Loyd, Archie Kirkman Whiteley, Herbert J. Cowan, Sir W. H. McCalmont, Brig.-Gen. Robert C. A. wilkie Alexander Craig, Colonel James (Down, E.) MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Williams, Col. Sir Robert (Dorset, W.) Croft Brig.-Gen. Henry Page Mackinder, Halford J. Wilson, Capt. A. Stanley (Yorks., E.S.) Crooks, Rt. Hon. William Macleod, John Mickintosh Wilson Rt. Hon. J.W.(Worc., N.) Dalziel Davison (Brixton) Macmaster, Donald Wilson-Fox, Henry Daiziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. (Kirkcaldy) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Wood, John (Statybridge) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Macpherson, James Ian Yate, Col. C.E. Denniss, E. R. B. Maden, Sir John Henry Yeo, Alfred William Duke, Rt. Hon. Henry Edward Maitland, Sir A. D. Steel. Young, William (perthshire, East) Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Marriott, J. A. R. Younger, Sir George Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Meux, Adml. Hon. Sir Hedworth Yoxall, Sir James Henry Fell, Arthur Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham) Neville, Reginald J. N. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Capt. F. Guest and Lord E. Talbot. Fletcher, John Samuel Newman, Major John R. P. Forster, Rt. Hon. Henry William
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. Francis Dyke Dougherty, Rt. Hon. Sir J. B. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. H. Arnold, Sydney Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Hogge, John Myles Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Fleming, Sir John Bliss, Joseph Gilbert, J. D. Hudson, Walter Brunner, John F. L. Goddard, Rt. Hon. Sir Daniel Ford Jacobsen, Thomas Owen Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hackett, John Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Notts, Rusheliffe) Buxton, Noel Harris, Percy A. (Leicester, S.) Jowett, Frederick William Chancellor, Henry George Helme, Sir Norval Watson Kenyon, Barnet Clough, William Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) Kiley, James Daniel Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Hinds, John King, Joseph Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Parrott, Sir James Edward Smith, Sir Swire (Keighley, Yorks) Lynch, Arthur Alfred Pearce, Sir Robert (Staffs, Leek) Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Macdonald, Rt. Hon. J. M. (Falk.B'ghs) Peel, Major Hon. G. (Spalding) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Toulmin, Sir George MacVeagh, Jeremiah Pringle, William M. R. Trevelyan, Charles Phillips Mason, David M. (Coventry) Raffan, Peter Wilson White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Millar, James Duncan Rendall, Athelstan Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas Molteno, Percy Alport Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) Williams, Penry (Middlesborough) Morrell, Philip Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) Nolan, Joseph Robertson, Rt. Hon. J. M. Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) Nuttall, Harry Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) O'Grady, James Seely, Lt.-Col. Sir C. H. (Mansfield) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Commander Wedgwood and Mr. Hemmerde, O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Smallwood, Edward Outhwaite, R. L. Smith, H. B. Lees- (Northampton)
I beg to move, after the word "may" ["as the Board of Trade may in any particular case allow"], to insert the words "generally or.
This is a small Amendment which the Board of Trade may find convenient. It is to make the six-monthly period general, if they so desire it. I think it will save the trading community and the Board of Trade a considerable amount of trouble. If they come to the conclusion that this ought to be done they can put a notice in the "Gazette" saying the period of the coming in force of the Act is postponed, and they will save both the trading community and themselves a great deal of correspondence.
I think this is an Amendment which we can accept.
Amendment agreed to.
The next Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Commander Wedgwood)—after the word "allow," to insert the words "to commence"—would mean a negative of the Bill, and is not in order.
May I explain that the object of the Amendment is to protect vested interests and to prevent other persons coming into the trade if they are of enemy origin. My point of view is that you are not entitled by legislation to affect people who are actually carrying on the industry and who have started bonâ fide in that industry, but that we are entitled to prevent other people of that description coming in, so that where no vested interest has been created the trade may then be confined to pure-blooded Britons. We are entitled to make it quite clear that this is the first piece of legislation—at any rate, it is the first legislation that I have seen brought before Parliament—in which existing vested interest is wiped out, without one word about compensation.
The hon. and gallant Member is not raising a point of Order. He seems to be speaking on the Amendment.
I am afraid I was too long. This is the only point on which one can introduce that question, and I maintain that it is thoroughly in order to move the Amendment, which limits the Act to people coming into the trade, and exempts from its purview those people who are already in the trade and have a vested interest in it.
I am unable to agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman. This Amendment, in my view, clearly means a negative of the Bill.
I beg to move, after the word "of" ["the business of"] to insert the word "winning."
This Amendment arises out of a discussion which occurred on the Second Reading, when it was pointed out that the word "winning," or some such word, was necessary for the purpose of completing the operations of winning, extracting, smelting, dressing, refining, etc.
I think the argument put forward by the hon. and learned Member is quite right, and we shall be glad to accept the Amendment.
I am glad to hear that the Solicitor-General is going to accept this Amendment, because I believe it to be a step in the right direction; but I would point out to the Board of Trade that this will very much extend the area of licensing in which they will be involved. They must be well aware, for instance, that in Cornwall and other parts of the country a great deal of winning of metal is done by small people and very large numbers of them. Whether or not they have considered the licensing of all these people I do not know; but I support this Amendment on the general principle that it is far better to control the metal at its source than attempt any of these other dodges of controlling it through the exchanges.
The acceptance of this Amendment will bring within the purview of the Bill quite a new class of persons, and will make it necessary for those interested in those persons, as I am, to put down an Amendment later on, which will make it clear that the licence fee must be small. There are a great many people in Cornwall and Wales who will be included under this Amendment, and they cannot possibly afford a fee of five guineas or anything of that kind. If it is clear that, assuming there is to be a fee, the fee is to be a small one—a nominal fee—my objection would vanish, but as this Amendment does bring in a new class it must be quite understood that the fee must not be more than they are able to pay, provided there is any fee at all.
I am sorry that my right hon. Friends are accepting this Amendment. By accepting this Amendment you are restricting the number of people who are entitled to get raw materials under the soil. You are deliberately reducing employment in the mining industries. I do not mean in coalmines, but in the non-ferrous metal industries. You are doing exactly what every man in favour of taxation of land values wants to stop. Everyone who knows anything about economics knows that we should arrange our taxation so as to encourage the getting of raw materials from the soil and to benefit the trades which use those raw materials. By this Amendment, slipped in by a Conservative Member and a Conservative Government, without anyone knowing that it is an official Amendment, you are going to restrict the getting of these raw materials in order to facilitate the work of your combine, your new syndicate, in preventing competition from other people getting raw materials. It means that you are giving to this syndicate exactly what they want. It was not in the Bill before. So long as there is free trade in getting the raw materials from the soil you cannot form a close combine, because someone can always start competition with the combine so far as the getting of raw materials is concerned. Control over the raw materials when they are above the ground is of really no service to the syndicate. What is of vital service to them is that they should have no competitors in the winning of the raw materials, and to have this. Amendment brought forward, and accepted by the Solicitor-General, who has always been opposed to any form of taxation of land values, deliberately for the benefit of this syndicate, which is set up under the benevolent influence of the Board of Trade, is a step which no real Liberal can possibly tolerate at this hour. We want to encourage every man to get as much raw material as possible, in order to increase employment and cheapen raw materials. The Government wants to do exactly the opposite. They want to increase unemployment by restricting the getting of raw material, and to force up prices of raw materials, so that the syndicate can benefit by these increased prices.
I think there, is a great deal of force in what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said. I agree with my right hon. Friend (Mr. Runciman) that if you want to tackle this thing effectively you should not do it by this unreal, sham, and bogus method, but you should deal with it at the source. I think, however, that the considerations which the hon. and gallant Member has brought forward are important considerations, and I should like to state to the Committee how the matter presents itself to me. We had a statement by the President of the Board of Trade this afternoon, which showed that he expects the result of this Bill to be the setting up of a cartel system, and that it has his blessing. If that is the case I think my hon. and gallant Friend is right in saying that this cartel should not have power to crush these small men, and that they should be protected, and should be allowed to raise the metals. There can be no particular reason why these people should be brought within the rapacious maw of the Board of Trade, or why you should need to spread the net around them, because they are working on British soil, and they are British subjects. Why should they be licensed? I think there is a very strong reason why they should not be licensed, arising from the fact that this, business is being handed over to a great combination, and that that combination ought not to get power from the Government to crush out small people.
I am very glad that my right hon. Friend does not agree with the right hon. Gentleman who has accepted this Amendment. I am relieved that my right hon. Friend has shown himself capable of appreciating the real device of this Amendment. We have dealt, in the first Amendment to-day, with the making up of licensing a necessity for everybody whom this Bill affects; and here you have an Amendment, accepted by the Government, which is going to enforce licensing upon a far larger number of people than were within the purview of the Bill as it was originally introduced, and the right hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) at once got up and said he would accept it. It seems a most extraordinary proceeding. I think, after the revelation made on the last Amendment, where we had for the first time a revelation of the Teal object and inwardness of this Bill, namely, the setting up of a syndicate in this country which would corner all the supplies of these metals here, surely this House is not going to put all the small miners in Cornwall under the mercy of this enormous syndicate. You are going to make it easier and easier for these people to be crushed out. If the Government would now make a declaration that on the Report stage they would accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Hexham, which I moved at the beginning of the Debate to-day, I would be prepared to accept the position, because it would relieve small people engaged in mining from the necessity of registration. The only justification for including them within the limits of this licensing Bill is that you intend to have them crushed out. Like the old independent miners in Kimberley, they will be crushed out by the new De Beers which the President of the Board of Trade is going to set up This Bill is not really for the control of the non-ferrous metals, but to set up a new De Beers syndicate in this country. We are not going to have the Cornish miners put under the mercy of this new De Beers.
I am going to support the Government on the Amendment because I think it is the only good Amendment which has yet been put before the House, and it is the only good thing that I can see in the Bill. If the Government really are desirous of retaining in their hands this great industry, surely the first thing that they must do is to get at the raw materials. That is a proposition which no one will deny. I believe I am correct in saying that only a very small proportion of the raw materials is produced in the United Kingdom, and, therefore, the effect of this Amendment will not be very great, because there is not much raw material to obtain here. At any rate, this Amendment is a step in the right direction, although it is a small step. I am a Protectionist—I always have been a Protectionist—and I would like to see this country self-supporting. That is why I support this Amendment as a small step in the right direction. The rest of the Bill does not in any kind of way prevent any person dealing in these metals if they like to do so, but it does retain the control of these particular metals in English hands. I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill that if he wants effective control over these metals lie must not allow a German to deal over here with British firms, which he is going to do under the Bill. Therefore, if he wants to make this Bill effective, he must introduce an Amendment to deal with all raw materials as is done now, and to introduce Amendments to carry out the effect of this Amendment. In the hope that he may do so, I support this Amendment.
I came here and listened to this Debate in response to several letters which came from my constituents asking me to do what I could to prevent the extreme proposals of the Government in this Bill becoming law. I confess that I only read the Bill yesterday evening, but from the Debate which has proceeded it seems clear to me that, while the interests of the British manufacturer are proposed to be protected by this Bill, there is complete neglect in the Bill as it stands of the interests of the British consumer. Unless one is here in the interests of the British manufacturer I can see no incentive to any Member of this House to support the principle of the Bill as it stands. As I understand, the President of the Board of Trade, from his recent statement, is anxious to get rid of a close corporation of German manufacturers, and to substitute for them a close corporation of English manufacturers. From one standpoint that may be a reasonable position to take up, but I do not represent in this House the interests of any close or, indeed, any open corporation of English manufacturers. I represent the interests of the consumers, and in the interests of the consumers I am obliged to protest against the proposal. As it stands the Bill is not very satisfactory from the point of view of the consumer. For the first time the English, I will not use the word dealer, but the manufacturer of non-ferrous metals is to have the whole of his business overhauled before he is allowed to carry it on. I am not going back on the arguments which were used in connection with the last Amendment, but it is an important matter, and when you are going to extend it by the acceptance of this Amendment, and you seek to include a person who is engaged in winning non-ferrous metals from British soil, a man who is a British citizen, and say that he is not to be entitled to continue doing that which he was previously entitled to do until he has submitted all his trade documents, trade secrets, and clientèle to the examination of the Board of Trade, it seems to me that you are penalising British enterprise. There is, I understand, no suggestion that there is any control by Germany over or any hostile influence in connection with metals won from British soil by British firms. It is suggested, and I imagine that it is a perfectly sound suggestion, that German firms have controlled the manufacture of non-ferrous metals which are essential to British trade, but it is not pretended for one moment that there is any control by Germans of metals won upon British soil.
Yes.
Where?
I gave an instance.
I am sorry that I was not present when the hon. Member addressed the House.
I gave an instance of a German syndicate obtaining control of the actual ore in Travancore, in India, in our own Empire.
The hon. Member, I am afraid, does not understand the Bill. Travancore is not in Great Britain, though it belongs to the British Empire.
It is all the same thing.
Therefore, the illustration is beside the point. Perhaps the hon. Member will find some other place in Great Britain where the winning of the metal is being influenced by German control. But perhaps I am mistaken, and the Bill is to apply not only to Great Britain but to all parts of the British Empire.
Or to foreign countries.
I thought that this, was a comparatively trivial matter and that it was to apply only to manufacturers, in the United Kingdom, but if it is to be applied all over the world, and that every firm engaged in the trade has to submit its accounts to a close and searching investigation by the Board of Trade before it can carry on its business, that seems to, me to entail an enormous extension of the Board of Trade activities and the creation of further Departments and staffs, and so far from being a trifling Bill this appears to be a measure of first-class importance, all the provisos of which must be closely scanned.
We should have some declaration from the President of the Board of Trade as to what this Bill really does do. I, and probably most Members of this House, imagined that we were going to legislate for ourselves alone. Are we really legislating for India, for British East Africa, and for all the Dominions of the British Crown, including our own Colonies? There is no limitation of application in the last Clause of the Bill. There are not very many non-ferrous mines in this country, except in Cornwall, and if you are going over the whole British Empire—
I do not think that this can operate beyond the jurisdiction of this House, and this Parliament.
Can it apply within our Colonies in Africa?
No!
Yes!
Are we, in these vast, unexplored territories where the raw material may be, to say that no one is to get these minerals in the Soudan or British East Africa without the licence of the Board of Trade—that is what it comes to?
The Straits Settlements?
Does it, include the Straits Settlements? That is the most vital one of the lot. If a company have an office here, and work a mine in the Straits Settlements, are they not to win the metal, under this proposal, without the sanction of the Board of Trade, without exposing to them, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, their books, their clientele, their profits, and, in exposing them to the Board of Trade, exposing to a rival syndicate all these details which it is vital to keep secret? If this Bill is to extend all over the British Empire everybody who owns minerals, or mineral rights, throughout the British Empire ought at least to know that by this Bill we are restricting his rights and depriving him of valuable property which he has in the land at the present time. In preventing these people from getting their minerals, in checking the winning of the Taw material throughout the world, you are raising the price of raw materials and hampering industry throughout the world, and, without anybody in this House knowing it, until the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. Glyn-Jones) explained to the right hon. Gentleman, that we are legislating not only for the British Isles, but for the British Empire, and—
May I point out that on that last point there is an Amendment further down, and that it would be better to deal with the point when we come to that Amendment.
I hope that the President of the Board of Trade will not accept this Amendment without further consideration. He has told us that this Bill is the result of very serious consideration, and that this is the best that his Department can give us. Then why not leave it alone in this respect? His clever Department certainly never told him that "extracting" included "winning." Why should you suddenly bring into this Bill a matter which his Department and his advisers and his Department thought should not be brought into the Bill, simply because one person blurted out a suggestion? The President should keep the Bill for the moment without "winning," and reconsider the question of the Report, because it is going to lead us into all sorts of difficulties. It is going very much to hamper the progress of the world. If, after full consideration, when we come to the Report stage, the President thinks, after consultation with his advisers, that "winning" ought to be added, let us add it; but it seems to me intolerable that at a time of political truce like this, after refusing Amendments, which are pressed seriously from one side, when a vitally important Amendment is suggested from the other side it is at once accepted, without any regard to the fact that many of us have been fighting this question so tenaciously for years. It is all very well for the right hon. Member for the City to say that it is following the policy which he has pursued of doing everything to prevent the land of this country being dealt with in certain ways, or the question of land values being dealt with. It is not going to assist the Government if they are going to accept every Amendment which some of us consider of a most reactionary nature. The Government say that they have considered this measure carefully and we are entitled to ask—what does the Bill do now? Let us assume that the word is added and suppose that a firm which is mining these metals in a neutral country has got to have a licence. Suppose that a company is carrying on business in this country but owns and works a mine in Spain. If it has got to have a licence see what the result will be. It rather pays the Government at present to keep businesses in this country and not to have them run in other countries. I will give a case in point. I happen to be chairman of a Wulfram mine in Spain, which we might perfectly well run from Spain without being here at all. If we wanted to avoid payment of Excess Profits Tax we could perfectly run this mine in Spain. We are selling it all to the Government, but do you want after this War to force that company to remove to Spain, or if not what do you want to do? I say after the War because naturally they are getting the whole output during the War. Even now it might be done. What is the object of bringing in these matters, which have not only been considered, but have been considered and turned down? Because someone in the House suggests something you had not thought of before, you promptly swallow this Amendment. It is intolerable, after two or three days of discussion, that we should suddenly be asked to legislate in this way. The Government propose to limit this to the United Kingdom, but do they, by this licensing system, wish to drive these industries out of the country? If that is not their idea, what are they going to do? I do ask the Government not to swallow this word "winning" without serious consideration. I thought the object of this Bill was to prevent the German control of certain metals which they had controlled before; but what has that to do with asking men to win metals in small quantities in this country under licence? You do not need to prevent men from getting metal out, and you can follow him to see what he does with them afterwards. Is it not the fact that the Government were trying by every means in their power to develop the mineral resources of this country, and in Wales and Scotland—to develop zinc in Scotland and in Cornwall, wolfram? Why on earth do you suddenly bring into this Bill something which presumably you had not intended to bring into it? I ask the Government not to add this Clause to the Bill, but take time to give it further and serious consideration.
The difficulties of this Bill multiply at every step. I wish to reinforce the argument of the right hon. Member for Dewsbury, that if the Government want control over non-ferrous metals it would be natural that they should deal in one sense with the winning of metals, but, on the other hand, the last speaker made it fairly clear that there is very great danger from introducing the word "winning" and forcing a licence on the miners of non-ferrous metals. By imposing a licence you will discourage instead of encourage the production of raw material. For years before the War lead-mining in this country was in a very struggling condition. The reason, broadly speaking, was that the home market was the only market for the lead-mining industry, it was hardly open to an ordinary or large export trade, while the price was too poor to keep the mines going. The lead industry for a short time found a market with the Germans, and that was the only time the ore brought a decent price. It is rather interesting that the encouragement of lead-mining in this country was encouraged by the Germans. But it did not last long, and a combine of German and English companies led to prices going down to a discouraging level. If the Board of Trade goes into the question of mining, and demands to see books and papers, I suppose they will put their fingers on some of the transactions in which lead was sent to Germany. You once dealt with Germans and now you want to prevent dealings with Germans, but whether you do or not, it is very obvious indeed that these industries must depend on some freedom of export. I hope the Government realise that. If they insist on the output from the mines being kept at Home, then those industries will be absolutely at the mercy of the Government. The Government will either have to permit the lead mines to export or they will have to take the course of practically strangling the lead mines. That is one of the difficulties which the Government will be landed into if they accept this Amendment, and I think that this further problem is a strong reason why they should not commit themselves to this Amendment, but should reserve it to a later stage.
I am strongly opposed to the principle of this Bill, but I think that this is the only Amendment we ought to have. On the Second Reading, I put a straight question to the President of the Board of Trade: Was mining included in the Bill? I did not receive a reply to my question. When this Bill was brought before the House, did the Government know whether mining was included or not in the Bill? The word "extract" is in the Bill, and that includes mining, and it was for that reason I asked if mining was included. There is no tin or copper mine in this country which does not extract and smelt; it is done in every tin mine and copper mine, and, consequently, it would mean that every miner must have a licence. I urge upon the Government, therefore, that this matter should be postponed to the Report stage, and they can then tell us whether or not the Bill is intended to apply to mining. If it does not, then they must take out the words "extract" and " smelting." I would point out, as regards the Colonies, most of the mining enterprises there belong to English capitalists, and we want to know whether these miners have to be licenced, or whether they do not, and whether "winning" is within the meaning of the word "extract." I trust that this matter will be reconsidered before the Report stage.
The Bill applied to mines before it was introduced, and it applies to mines after. I think that the word "winning" is unnecessary, and the Board of Trade may reject it, because it has no meaning.
I only wish to give a short explanation. I am very sorry that I did not give an answer to the hon. Gentleman on the Second Reading. We certainly intended that mining should be included in this Bill, and we certainly thought that under the Bill, as framed, it was included. It was only to make clear that it was included that we accepted the word "winning." The word "extract" really includes the word "winning," but as there appeared to be some doubt about it, we accepted the Amendment to make it quite clear that the Bill does apply to mining.
If the Bill does apply to mining why did the right hon. Gentleman not answer the question of the hon. Member on the Second Reading? And on the present occasion, the right hon. Gentleman has given no reason why mining is included in the Bill. Mining is a most uncertain and speculative industry, and if you impose licences upon it you are going to make it impossible for many small men to do mining, which has hitherto been a most productive source of supply of raw materials. I submit that every encouragement ought to be given to men who are ready to put capital into a mine and to devote their energies and enterprise to finding where raw material is to be obtained. Mining is a difficult operation, and it cannot be done in any particular place until that place is discovered. Tens of thousands of men, all over the world, are endeavouring to discover where there are mines, and their energy and enterprise ought to be encouraged, rather than discouraged. I do ask the Government to give us some reason—and not a mere casual statement—as to why this Amendment should be accepted. We have no indication whatever whether or not those engaged in the mining industry are to come under this Bill, and if we have no satisfactory reply I feel inclined to move to report Progress.
7.0. P.M.
In the course of this Debate I made some animadversions, and I think it necessary to say one or two words. In the first place I know something of what has happened in regard to some of our coal areas in the United Kingdom and what has happened with regard to them, might well apply to lead or other mines in Scotland or in England. There was a large coal area partly in Derbyshire and partly in Yorkshire which came under the control of Mr. Hugo Stinnes, of Hamburg, who not only got control of this large coal area, but actually refused to work it. Mr. Hugo Stinnes deliberately bought the right to the coal area and then refused to-work it. He went so far in his refusal to work them that reports were made to the Board of Trade. Once he obtained the ownership he was quite entitled to refuse to sink his shaft, and we found it was necessary to take action far the winding-up of the Stinnes Syndicate which had control of this large coal area, to make it possible for the owners to work the mines. What happened with regard to that coal area could equally, although I do not know that it has, happen with regard to lead mines or tin mines. That made the necessity of preventing that, and unless we were prepared to take steps of the kind it would have been quite futile to talk about the procuring of these metals. That is the reason I support the Amendment. I must confess I was a little appalled at the information that this would apply not only in this country but actually in the Crown Colonies abroad. Nothing more detrimental to British industry or to British finance could be imagined than allowing this to apply to properties which are abroad. However, I will not discuss that at present, because I believe it will be raised by an Amendment in the course of a few minutes. I think it is necessary that my right hon. Friends who are conducting this Bill through the House should make it perfectly clear that this word "winning" is intended to apply only to the United Kingdom, and not to the winning of metals outside of it, for if it does it will simply mean that it would drive the head offices away. I feel sure that that cannot be the intention of the hon. and learned Gentleman behind me. He must have meant winning metals in the United Kingdom over which we have control. If that is the intention of the Government, I hope they will insist on accepting these words and make it perfectly clear that they apply to the winning of metals in the United Kingdom.
I listened with great attention to what my right hon. Friend said. I do not think he met one point. He said he accepted this Amendment because a certain number of years ago Hugo Stinnes purchased a certain area in the United Kingdom and then refused to work it. How would this Bill compel Mr. Stinnes or his representatives to work either tin or lead or any other area of which he had got possession, or of which he could get possession, and which he was holding up from the point of view of consumption? If the Government represents there is enemy control of certain non-ferrous areas or mines or metals in the United Kingdom and that the people are refusing to work them because they think it will hamper our activities during the War or our industries after the War, I think they ought to tell us and put words in the Bill to meet that situation and which will compel them to work those areas. But the words which are proposed, and which the Government have accepted, will not touch the point which has been dealt with by my right hon. Friend. It will not compel or enable the Government to compel the German or his representative to work those areas. It will not take those areas over from the Germans or foreign enemy hands and work them. It simply leaves things as they are at the present moment and those areas in the possession of some hostile influence unworked because that influence wishes to adversely affect British trade. My right hon. Friend must find some better reason for supporting the Amendment than that which he has presented to the House
The case made out against this Amendment rests upon this supposed tendency to restrict production of non-ferrous metals in this Kingdom and to crush out the small industry. That would be a very powerful argument if it were not for the fact that under the Bill every person who wishes to mine in this Kingdom has an absolute right to a licence and an absolute right to its renewal—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—that is my reading of the Bill—subject to his complying with the restrictions which are put upon him in the Schedule. That being so, it becomes only a question of the amount of the fee which would have to be paid for a licence. If the Board of Trade make that fee very small in the case of small industries, a merely nominal one of half-a-crown or so, that would not in any way restrict the production or enterprise of those small people throughout the Kingdom. If I am right in saying, as I believe I am, that there is an absolute right under this Bill to a licence—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—to anybody who does not come within the provisions of the Schedule, and I think that is unanswerable, then there will be no restriction whatever on industry except that small fee for a licence. I was astonished that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tyneside (Mr. Robertson), who is a master of the principles of political economy, brought out the fact very clearly that if the Amendment were not included in the Bill those people would be able to export our non-ferrous metals to Germany. That is the very thing the Bill is brought in to prevent. I do not go into the question of whether it is limited to the United Kingdom. That will be discussed presently. With regard to the last argument put forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bristol (Sir C. Hobhouse), if there is anything in it, it merely means that this Bill ought to be made a little wider and ought to be amended so as to meet the cases the right hon. Gentleman mentioned to the House. I was anticipated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) in his mention of the case of the Hugo Stinnes Coal Mines. I think it is quite clear this Bill ought to provide, and I hope it will now that the right hon. Gentleman's attention has been directed to the matter, for. preventing any person who opens up and acquires an interest in any non-ferrous mines in this country from being able to acquire them and not work them. That is an omission which ought to be supplied, and I have no doubt that the Government will take the point into consideration and deal with it in the Bill.
At the request of the authorities, who sent to Mr. Speaker, I am asked to suspend the sitting. I shall leave the Chair now, and the bells will be rung a few minutes before the sitting is resumed.
Sitting suspended accordingly, at twelve minutes after Seven o'clock.
Sitting resumed at Fifty-six minutes after Nine o'clock.
On a point of Order. I desire to raise the question as to the authority under which you, Mr. Chairman, adjourned the House. It is quoted in the last edition of May, page 205:
"Except on occasions when a quorum of the House is not present or when the Speaker, in pursuance of a Standing or other Order adjourns the House without Question put, the House can only be adjourned upon a Question put from the Chair."
Then, Sir, I desire to refer you in the Journals of the House to the Standing Order which was passed on 15th December, 1678:
"That Mr. Speaker shall not at any time adjourn the House without a Question first put, if it be insisted upon: that this Resolution be entered in the Journal as a Standing Order of the House."
Now, Sir, you raised the question of the adjournment of the House, and there were cries from several parts of the House of "No!" I was one of those who called out "No!" In spite of the cries, you left the Chair. The question which I put to you—and I understand that the adjournment was at the suggestion of the military authorities—is, Are we to understand that the military authorities can override the resolutions of this House? Another question, with all deference and respect, I wish to put is, Is it not a breach of duty on your part to disregard the Standing Orders, and to adjourn the House without the leave of the House? I raise the question, because I venture to suggest that the action of the Chair to-night—
Order, order! If the hon. Member has any criticism to make of the action of the Chair, there are forms provided by the House whereby his objection can be taken. In reply to his question of order, I can only say I acted on the instructions of Mr. Speaker. I understand that Mr. Speaker acted at the request of the military authorities, the view being that it was the duty of this House to fall in with the request of the authorities, like any other citizens.
On a point of Order—
Mr. Hogge.
I want to raise this point. You, Mr. Whitley, have explained that Mr. Speaker, in conjunction with the military authorities, did this thing. I want to know under what Rule of the House we are asked to suspend the sitting of the House on account of of the visitation, or supposed visitation, of German aeroplanes? It is certainly not the desire of any single Member of this House that any sitting of the House should be suspended for any such reason. I learn—you can correct me if I am wrong—that there has been some additional instructions issued to the Press of this country, that they are to make no reference to the fact that the sitting of this House is suspended.
That does not come within my province at all. If there is any criticism on my action, it can be taken in the form I have indicated. That is all I can say. As to the question of the hon. Member as to under what Rule or Standing Order I took the action I did, I can only say it was under no Rule or Standing Order of the House, but on what I conceive to be my duty, as Chairman of Committees of the House, following the instructions I have received.
I beg to move "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," in order to consider the action of the Chair in suspending the sitting of the House.
That Motion cannot be admitted. Criticism of the action of the Chair, as I have said, must be taken in due form.
As there is every likelihood of the incident this evening only being in the nature of an early visitation followed by later ones, are we to understand that if another warning be given this House will proceed to the cellars again, or are we to be allowed to continue the business of the House? May I ask whether our seat in the House in the Debate is considered our point of duty, and whether we are not deserting our posts in leaving this House to retire to the cellars?
I do not know where the hon. Member may have been during the interval, but I have only carried out what I conceive to be my duty.
Is the hon. Member entitled to suggest that anybody ran to the cellars?
As a personal explanation, in view of your statement, Mr. Whitley, as to where I was—
No explanation is required. I have no doubt the hon. Member did what he thought to be his duty, as I did mine.
I was hastily—
On a point of Order. I should like this cleared up. I am not putting this as obstruction. I want to know what right the competent military authority has to give instructions to this House as to whether it is to sit in certain circumstances.
There were no such instructions. I used the word "request" advisedly.
Will you say if we are to adjourn again if another air raid warning be given?
I can only deal with the circumstances as they arise.
Will you, for the guidance of the House, tell us how we can raise the point as to whether it lies in the hands of the Speaker to accede to the request of the military authority, without consultation with the Members of this House?
The hon. Member may, of course, put a question to Mr. Speaker on a favourable opportunity.
I beg to give notice that I will raise this on the Adjournment to-night.
Perhaps it will be for the convenience of the House if I state that after this Amendment has been disposed of, I shall ask permission to move to report Progress in order that we may proceed with the next Bill.
In connection with this Amendment, and in order to clear up a point on which we did not get sufficient explanation on the Second Reading, I want to know exactly what is the distinction that the Government draws between "winning" and "extracting," as obviously when this Amendment has been disposed of, the next move will be to leave out the word "extracting."
Will the Leader of the House kindly tell us what it is proposed to do on the next Bill? It raises very important subjects of debate, and I want to know if we are to be asked to discuss it all night?
There certainly is no expectation that we shall sit all night. My information is there is not likely to be any amount of discussion.
Will the President of the Board of Trade explain what fee is to be charged for these licences? I suggest that this arises quite definitely out of this Amendment. Does the word "extracting " cover the word "winning" by a process of mining or obtaining metal from the ground? The words should be made clear. They would cover many quite small undertakings, and the question of the fee that is to be charged is one of importance. At any rate, it will decide my vote on this Amendment. If the fee is only to be a small one, I should think it not unreasonable as it would cover the cases of men employed in a small way in getting out metal like tin and copper. Can any statement be made on this subject?
And will the right hon. Gentleman make any announcement whether or not the words "extracting" or "winning" are to be restricted to these operations in the United Kingdom? This is a point which might be cleared up as it is of some practical importance.
I do not think that these points arise on this particular Amendment, but I am quite willing to give all the information in my power. As regards the fee proposed to be charged, it will be a very nominal fee, intended simply to cover the cost of administration in connection with the issue of these licences. In reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dewsbury, we shall be quite willing to introduce words into the Bill to make it clear that both as regards winning and extracting they will be limited to operations in the United Kingdom.
And smelting?
Yes.
Will the fee be limited to the sum of £1?
Does not this question arise under Clause 4, when it will have to be debated?
No, no.
It will come up there, but I also thought it was part of this question.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
Question put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
National Health Insurance Bill
As amended, in the Standing Committee, considered.
Clause 3.—(Contingencies Funds and Valuation.)
(5) The Insurance Commissioners may make regulations providing for the formation within the prescribed time for the purposes of this Section of associations with central financial committees, and prescribing the conditions on which and the time within which a .society shall be entitled or allowed to join, or having joined to secede from, an association, and the manner in which, and the conditions on which, such an association may be dissolved; and those regulations shall provide for recognising as an association formed for the purposes of this Section any association which was formed for the purposes for which provision was made by Section 39 of the principal Act, and was in existence on the first day of January nineteen hundred and eighteen, if in the opinion of the Insurance Commissioners it is providing substantial assistance in the administration of the associated societies.
I beg to move, in Subsection (5), to leave out the words "first day of January nineteen hundred and eighteen," and to insert instead thereof the words, "a date not less than six months after the regulations referred to in this Section have been published"—
On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. Will you please give your ruling as to whether or not it is the intention of the Chair to adjourn the House again this evening in the event of the return of enemy aeroplanes; and would you please say to whom we are to turn for satisfaction for humiliating every Member of this House in the eyes of the whole Empire by adjourning it this evening when there was no justification for us to leave what should essentially be a post of duty? I would also like to ask whether you are aware that in another country men are shot for leaving their post of duty?
I take full responsibility.
May I ask, Mr. Speaker, whether it is your intention to again adjourn this House should another warning come through to-night?
Certainly.
I desire to get on with the business before the House as rapidly as possible, because I yield to no man in my desire to see this Bill on the Statute Book. One or two blots were left on this measure during the Committee stage which I desire to bring before the consideration of the House. The Amendment in my name is parallel to the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, and it will only be necessary for me to point out why I think his words are not appropriate, and will not carry out what I believe is necessary as a safeguard for these small approved societies, who have the right of grouping and who by association save their contingency fund to the extent of 50 per cent, being put into a national pool. It is, therefore, a very important matter to these societies what the exact words are. In the Committee we inserted a date before which these associations must be formed in order to be valid, and that is the 1st of January, 1918. The Amendment of the hon. Gentleman leaves that date, and puts in the words after it, "or which was on that date in the course of being so formed." I think those words are too vague, as no association of small societies could have any legal status on the 1st of January, 1918, and they are wholly unsatisfactory. Under Clause 39 of the 1911 Act, which is now repealed, the second Sub-section provides that these small societies, under the number of 5,000, were entitled to association, but that they had to do this in accordance with Subsection (2), which provides that the society shall be not less than 5,000, and it prescribes the conditions on which the society shall be entitled or allowed to join, or, having joined, shall be allowed to recede from association. It may be of interest to the House to know that although these years have elapsed since 1911 those Regulations have never yet been prescribed or published. Therefore, although some of these associations have been recognised by the Insurance Commissioners none of them have complied with Clause 39 which this Bill proposes to repeal. That being so, it seeme to me clear that we must ask the Government to fix a date that will give these small societies at least a period of six months after they do finally publish the rules so that they shall know exactly the conditions with which they have to comply. That seems to me an obvious preliminary act of justice. Then, with regard to the further words at the end of the Subsection, we felt in Committee that they were very unsatisfactory. We felt that it was putting far too large a power in the hands of the Insurance Commissioners to allow them to stop these associations, and therefore we suggested that if the association had prescribed rules and had published them it should be deemed to be in accordance with the rules which have never been published. I do not think the words are satisfactory and I propose, as was really the essence of the proposal of the 1911 Act, that the association shall be approved if it is an association of approved societies which have a community of interests. I have had representations from various associations of small societies, including, amongst others, the South-West Lancashire Association of Approved Societies. They say:
"The above association was formed on 19th December, 1911, under Section 39, Sub-section (2) of the National Insurance Act, 1911 (which of course is now to be repealed), for the purpose of pooling of funds. We viewed with dismay the recommendations in the Ryan Committee's Report that associated societies should be required to contribute out of their contingency funds to the National Pool in addition to their contribution to the association in which they were pooling, and we welcome the promise made by Sir Edwin Cornwall on behalf of the Government to relieve the associated societies from joining or contributing to the National Pool."
Of course, the words referred to are now in this Bill in Sub-section (4). Another large association, the National Federation of Employés' Approved Societies, although they also commenced in 1912, found, on referring to Section 39, Sub-section (2), that the conditions on which societies should be entitled or allowed to join, or, having joined, to recede from, an association were such as might be prescribed. After various inquiries they found that these conditions were never published. I quote those two cases to show that it is absolutely necessary to give these small societies some time in which they can form their associations. The words proposed by the hon. Gentleman, though possibly some improvement on those in the Bill, are not satisfactory.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I appreciate what my hon. Friend said in regard to his desire to secure the expeditious passage of this Bill. When the Bill was first introduced it provided that all societies under 1,000 should pool nationally. To meet objections to that course I agreed to Amendments in Committee enabling small societies to associate together. The Bill now provides that all associations which would have been recognised under the Act of 1911 will be recognised. The Amendment of which I have given notice, in lieu of the hon. Member's Amendment, would further improve the decision arrived at in Committee. It would not only recognise an association which would have been recognised under the Act of 1911, but it would also recognise associations in the course of being formed on the 1st January, 1918. After 1st January, 1918, Regulations will be made to enable new associations to be formed and recognised. The hon. Member proposes that after the Regulations have been issued six months should elapse, during which any association might be formed. I would ask him and the House whether it is a practical proposal to say that after Regulations have been issued they should be of none effect for six months, and that during that six months a movement, desirable or otherwise, should go on in the country with the idea of forming associations? The Regulations, when they are made, must be effective. It is the intention of the Bill, and of the Commissioners, that every possible encouragement should be given to the formation of those associations, but at the same time it is desirable to prevent any bogus associations being formed or any energetic secretary, having nothing to do with any particular association, going round the country and urging some of these small societies to form associations. I am sure that if my hon. Friend were in my position he would not accede to any such proposal. It would be far better that the words I proposed should be adopted. If he will withdraw his Amendment and allow me to move mine, I think it will give greater security. There is no real difference between us as to purpose; it is only a question of the best way of achieving it.
Amendment negatived.
Amendments made: In Sub-section (5), after the word "eighteen," insert the words "or which was on that date in the course of being so formed."
Leave out the words "it is providing substantial assistance in the administration of the associated societies," and insert instead thereof the words "the association is such that they could properly have consented to its formation under the said Section."—[ Sir E. Cornwall .]
Clause 4.—(Central Fund.)
(2) If on the valuation of any society or any branch of a society, the society or branch is found in deficiency, and the sums in any contingencies funds available to make good that deficiency are not sufficient, the Committee, if satisfied that the deficiency is due in whole or in part to an abnormal rate of sickness amongst the members of the society or branch attributable to the nature of their employment or environment or their physical condition or any epidemic disease, or is due to the rate of sickness being abnormal by reason of the small membership of the society or branch or is due to any other special cause beyond the control of the society or branch may, out of the Central Fund, make good the whole or any part of the deficiency not so made good as aforesaid.
I beg to move, in Subsection (2), to leave out the words "the rate of sickness being abnormal by reason of."
One of the conditions which qualify a society to have resort to what is now called the central fund, or the special risks fund, in the Bill as it was before the House on the Second Reading, was agreed to be the smallness of the membership of the society or branch. If a society is a very small one, although it may have nothing more than normal sickness it is felt that that might be a reason for incurring heavy expenditure in various directions and that mere paucity of members would be a reasonable ground for participating in the central fund, which would be contributed, in common with the larger society. The right hon. Gentleman, in the hurry of Committee, for we rather raced through the Bill upstairs, put in the rate of sickness as abnormal by reason of the small membership. There is no more reason why there should be a high rate of sickness among 100 or 1,000 than 100,000. What really was in our minds was that small societies might find themselves in difficulties inherent to their smallness and not to a high rate of sickness. Therefore I ask hon. Gentlemen to accept these words as necessary to carry out the spirit of the agreement as understood.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I am advised by my advisers and draftsmen that these words should be left in the Bill, because while I agree that it is an understanding that small societies with a paucity of members should have a right to come upon the central fund in the same way as any other special risks society may claim, the mere fact of the paucity of members in itself can be no case for coming on to the central fund. Paucity of members may not provide a sufficient field for spreading the risk for sickness benefits, and it would be in consequence of the abnormal rate of sickness arising from the small society not having a sufficient field whereon to spread the risks. The society, though small in numbers, may have excellent lives, and the mere fact of paucity of numbers in itself gives no occasion for coming on the central fund. I rather agree with the advice given to me that, in view of the conditions which will arise out of paucity of numbers, the words in the Bill are necessary.
Amendment negatived.
Clause 12.—(Amendments with Respect to Sickness Benefit.)
(2) Where an insured person who claims to be entitled to sickness or disablement benefit fails to give notice of the disease or disablement within three days from the commencement thereof, benefit shall in his case, subject as hereinafter provided, commence only on the day following the date on which notice is given, or, if the disease or disablement is under the provisions of Sub-section (5) of Section eight of the principal Act deemed to be a continuation of a previous disease or disablement, on the day next but one before that date:
Provided that if the insured person proves to the society or committee administering the benefit or, on appeal, to the Insurance Commissioners, that in the circumstances of the case he was not reasonably able to give notice either before the date on which it was in fact given, or before some earlier date being a date more than three days after the commencement of the incapacity, he shall be entitled to benefit as from the third day of incapacity or, in the case of a disease or disablement which is deemed as aforesaid to be a continuation of a previous disease or disablement, as from the commencement of the incapacity, so, however, that where the insured person only proves inability to give notice before some date earlier than the date on which notice was in fact given he shall not be entitled to benefit for the period commencing on that earlier date and ending on the date of the notice.
For the purposes of this Sub-section notice sent by post shall be deemed to have been given on the day on which the letter containing the notice was posted.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to insert the words,
"3) Notwithstanding the following provision to the contrary in any rule of an approved society or branch of such society, an insured woman who is pregnant shall not on the ground that her pregnancy was due to misconduct be deprived of any sickness or disablement benefit to which she would but for this provision have been entitled."
I move this on grounds with which the hon. Gentleman is familiar. At the time the original Insurance Act was passed a Clause was inserted which made it quite plain that an unmarried woman who became pregnant should have maternity benefit. In other words, the House decided that misconduct should not of itself deprive an unmarried woman of maternity benefit. But it has been found that approved societies are able to avoid paying sickness benefit. A married woman who may not be living with her husband and who becomes pregnant, is allowed sickness benefit. The ground taken by those who oppose this Amendment is that the grant of sickness benefit would be to encourage misconduct. The House decided long ago that maternity benefit was to be given, and that the moment a woman became pregnant, whatever her conduct had been, whether good or bad, the State had got a real interest in the woman being properly attended to and having all the necessary medical assistance. The State felt that the community had a great interest in that pregnant woman being able to produce a child which was healthy and strong. I am told that the hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Cornwall) is going to accept the next Amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for Central Edinburgh (Mr. Price). That Amendment provides that an insured unmarried woman who is pregnant is not to be deprived of sickness benefit on the ground that her pregnancy was due to misconduct. In other words, the principle that sickness benefit is to be paid to such pregnant women is wholly admitted if that Amendment is accepted; but the difference between that Amendment and my Amendment is that it limits the sickness benefit purely to unmarried women. The married woman who is pregnant through misconduct is not to have sickness benefit during pregnancy. I submit that that is altogether a wrong principle. If it is right in one case it is certainly right in the other. It is not the case that we are encouraging immorality, but it is a case of treating a woman who is pregnant as being a trustee for the community. So long as she occupies that important, and, I might say, sacred, position it is the duty of the House, and it is the duty of the Insurance Act, to protect her fully and wholly. I submit, therefore, that my Amendment ought to be accepted. I do not think I am divulging any secret when I say that so far as the hon. Member in charge of the Bill is concerned he would be perfectly Mailing to accept the Amendment; but he is, of course, the representative of the Insurance Commissioners, and the Commissioners have got to deal with vast numbers of approved societies, and those societies have many different rules, and apparently some of them are not very broad-minded in the spirit which they bring into the administration of the Act. It seems to me, therefore, that the House must come to the protection of the hon. Gentleman and encourage him to accept an Amendment of this kind, even if a great many of these approved societies do not want him to do so. The only thing I contend for in this Amendmtnt is that there should be absolute equality between two classes of women who are supposed to have misconducted themselves, that there should be no difference in the treatment for sickness benefit between the unmarried and the married woman, and that both, if pregnant, shall have all the necessary medical assistance during pregnancy. For that principle alone I am contending.
I beg to second the Amendment.
When this question was raised in Committee I had to resist the proposal altogether, because I knew the strong feeling which the friendly societies had on the subject. The original Act was based very largely on a large degree of autonomy being given to all classes of societies. It is impossible in a few words to describe the great variety of approved societies and the views they hold. In these matters it was understood that they were to have freedom of action. Though I had to resist the proposal altogether in Committee, I realised that there was in Committee a strong feeling that something should be done, and afterwards I called on representatives of friendly societies and asked them how far they were prepared to meet the views which had been expressed in Committee. I am glad to be able to say that I was able to carry them with me to the extent of getting them to consent to the next Amendment, which deals with the same subject, but only with the unmarried woman and not the married woman. It was impossible to carry the friendly societies any further. They thought that it was a serious matter to override their rules on this subject. I would like the House to understand that we are not deciding what should be done. It is a question how far we should override the rules of the societies. I do not think it wise to go so far as the Amendment now proposed. The approved societies cover the whole of the United Kingdom, and that is no small factor in the case. I ask my hon. Friend not to press his Amendment but to give the House an opportunity of carrying the next Amendment, which I shall have very great pleasure in accepting if it is moved.
I would ask my hon. Friend to remember the fight which we had upstairs. The Amendment was based on a very wide Amendment that would practically be taking away the entire autonomy of the friendly societies. Whatever our views of misconduct of this kind may be, I ask the House to remember that the friendly societies and those who have built up their organisations on certain well-defined rules ought not to be ignored in this matter, and I would ask the House to remember the impossibility of administering a society with any degree of success where on one side you have the power to deal with misconduct, and on the State side you are compelled to take a different view. That is the difficulty which the friendly societies felt about the original Amendment, which not only dealt with the question of illegitimate children, but, let it be observed, deliberately compelled the societies to pay a woman who forced an abortion. It was not the encouragement or the development of the child, but they were asked originally to do something that deliberately covered abortion. The Committee, in my opinion rightly, turned this proposal down, but they did feel, and the friendly societies felt generally, that if there was a young girl who had gone astray it was not right to penalise her. The result was that this Amendment, whilst agreed to by the friendly societies, despite their original opposition—was to meet the case of the unmarried woman under these circumstances. But surely the House does not want to be told the difference between an unmarried woman and the position of a married mother, who may claim from a different standpoint. Here is the case of a married mother who, in the first place, may claim for a child of which the husband is not the father. Please observe the kind of complications that would arise, for she can claim in her own right as a married and insured person. I ask the House to consider the complications, difficulties, and friction that would arise under the circumstances. Misconduct is charged against a married woman, but her husband has paid the maturity and maternity benefit. I, therefore, ask the House to consider the wide difference between the two, and, though the standpoint is not the same between the married and unmarried woman, to make a genuine effort to meet the difficulties, and not compel the trade unions and friendly societies to recognise misconduct.
I was first responsible for raising this point in Committee, but the Minister in charge of the Bill was unable to accept it. The second Amendment which stands in my name has been framed in order to meet the objections of the friendly societies. After a great deal of negotiation the terms of the Amendment were adjusted, and I have since been informed that the Women's Court and Guild entirely approve of it.
Amendment negatived.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), after the word "posted" ["containing the notice posted"] insert,
"(3) Notwithstanding any provision to the contrary in any rule of an approved society or branch of such society, an insured unmarried woman who is pregnant shall not on the ground that her pregnancy was due to misconduct be deprived of any sickness or disablement benefit to which she would but for that provision have been entitled."—[ Mr. C. Price .]
CLAUSE 14.—(Membership of Approved Societies.)
(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, every member of an approved society shall be entitled, on giving the prescribed notice and on complying with the prescribed conditions, to terminate his membership of the society and become a member of another society or a deposit contributor:
Provided that—
( b ) If an approved society, within thirty days after receiving notice from any member that he desires to terminate his membership, gives notice to the Insurance Commissioners that it objects to his so doing, and proves to their satisfaction that the society would be prejudiced in its administration by the retirement of the member, they may, if in the circumstances of the case they think it proper so to do, declare the notice cancelled, and in such case the member shall remain a memoer of the society as if no notice had been given;
( e ) A member of an approved society on terminating his membership shall, unless he is a person who entered into insurance within the two years immediately preceding the date on which he gave notice of desire to terminate membership, and has not previously been transferred from some other approved society, pay to the society the prescribed fee.
I beg to move, in paragraph ( b ), after the word Commissioners ["Commissioners that it objects"], to insert the words, "and to the member."
I move this Amendment, which stands in the name of my hon. Friend (General Hickman), and it deals with the transfer of membership. It was left open in 1911, and now it appears in paragraph ( b )—
I accept the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, in the same paragraph, after the word "case" ["circumstances of the case"], to insert the words, "and having regard to the interests of the insured person."
I think this Amendment is agreed to. The Commissioners considered the case, and obviously—[Interruption and HON. MEMBERS: Agreed, agreed!].
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1) ( e ), to insert the words,
"Provided that this Sub-section shall, not apply to any master, seaman, or apprentice serving on a foreign-going, ship or a ship engaged in regular trade on foreign stations who desires to-transfer his membership to a society more than three-fourths of whose members are masters, seamen, or apprentices, to the sea service or sea-fishing service."
I desire to make it perfectly clear that. I only want to remove those restrictions, of transfer from one society to another in the case of seamen who are members of approved societies, the vast majority of whose members are landsmen, and subject to entirely different conditions. This question of transfer is bound up with Clause 27, which deals with the question of seamen as a whole. The great blot on the Government's proposal is that, whereas they propose for simplification of accounts, to increase the seamen's contribution to the full contribution of landsmen, there is no provision to enable the seamen to get back into one or two societies, the vast majority of whose members are seamen, and where the surplus-age which will inevitably accrue from this further increase of contributions, will accrue to the benefit of the seamen themselves and go towards the nucleus we already have to a seamen's pension fund, which is so desirable to increase in every way we can. Therefore I want to see these four or five restrictions which are imposed by Clause 14 on transfer from one society to another, and which are put in not with any intention of keeping seamen in inappropriate societies, but to prevent moving from one society to another and the migration of insured persons to societies where they have a little better chance of a share in a surplus than with the society they originally joined, removed in respect of seamen. There is a great deal to be said for restrictions in respect of the general member. Under paragraph ( a ) no person is entitled to terminate membership except in a prescribed time. Under ( b ) the approved societies are to give notice to the Insurance Commissioners of objection; and under ( c ) approved societies may during any period not exceeding one year suspend the right to transfer. Under ( d ) the Insurance Commissioners can, if they think it is in the interests of the societies, suspend the right of transfer, and ( e ) provides as to fees. I hold that all those restrictions are quite inappropriate, and that it would be unfair and would be very harmful to keep that condition of affairs in existence. In the Ryan Report it is pointed out that the seamen are not all in one seamen's society, which was the intention of the 1911 Act.
No, no!
The Ryan Report points out "not all." On the contrary, it points out that between 60 and 70 per cent. are in one Seamen's Society, 25 per cent. in another, and the remaining 15 per cent. are scattered over other societies—in only two of them more than 5,000. There are, I think, 115,000 altogether, or thereabouts, of insured seamen—this from the Board of, Trade Return, 1911. So far, therefore, from proposing restrictions upon seamen and preventing them joining seamen's societies, it ought to be the purpose of the House to encourage them to get together. Therefore I cannot imagine that so far as this Amendment is concerned there can possibly be any opposition from the hon. Gentleman, or from those who are specially interested in one or other of the seamen's societies. It is only by getting them together in these societies that they can possibly get the benefit of extra contributions if they are in force, as is proposed in this Bill. I hold that it is unfair to ask for increased contributions knowing that the present contributions are based on the minute actuarial calculations on which the original Act was based. The Report of Mr. Duncan Fraser, for 5th June, 1912, says:
"While the income of the seamen's societies in respect of British seamen in the foreign trade is 2d. a week less than the income of the ordinary society, it is estimated that it will affect a saving of 2d. a week in respect of the seamen referred to on the following account."
At the end of the Report it says:
"The amount of saving varies from 1¼d. per week at the age of twenty to 4d, a week at the age of sixty-five."
It was on these actuarial calculations that the contributions were settled—shipowners and members. Clause 27 of this Bill proposes to increase the men's contribution, but not that of the shipowner. It is an impossible proposal that you should move to put barriers in the way of these men to get together, or that the seamen whom we are never tired of praising should be charged increased contributions for which there is no actuarial basis whatever. They are only put forward as a matter of convenience of account keeping, not of transfer. I therefore ask that the restrictions upon the transfer from landsmen to any seamen's society should be removed-that is all. I do hope I shall not hear that it is contrary to the interests of either one or other of the societies or unions which specially represent the interests of the seamen; for I am perfectly certain that it is not contrary to the seamen's interests.
Amendment not seconded.
CLAUSE 20.—(Amendment of Law with Respect to Contributors who are Inmates of Hospital, etc.)
(4) The Insurance Commissioners may make regulations providing for the nomination by any such person as aforesaid of the persons to whom any sum which under the foregoing provisions of this Section is deemed to form part of his estate is to be paid at his decease, for the revocation of any such nomination, for the payment of the specified amount to any nominee so nominated, and providing that any such nomination shall take effect as if it were a will of the deceased duly executed, and that notwithstanding the want of due execution, minority, or marriage, or in Scotland, the birth of a child.
Amendment made: Leave out Subsection (4)."—[ Sir E. Cornwall .]
CLAUSE 22.—(Special Provisions with Respect to Married Women.)
11.0. P.M.
(8) Where any married woman is, at the commencement of this Act, entitled to have any sum applied for her benefit under the terms of the proviso to Sub-section (2) of Section forty-four of the principal Act, that sum shall, instead of being so applied, be paid to her forthwith in cash.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (8), to insert the words, "Provided that, if any payment required to be made under the foregoing provision is not made before the first day of January, nineteen hundred and nineteen, an amount equal to the sum to be paid shall be transferred from the credit of the society to the Reserve Suspense Fund, and the said sum shall thereafter be payable out of the said fund instead of by the society."
I move this proviso on behalf of my hon. Friend (Mr. Currie). The object is to provide that if for any reason the sum so payable is not claimed during the year 1918—that is, the amount standing to the credit of a woman who was married before the Act came into operation, and which would have been payable in cash otherwise—it shall be transferred to the reserve suspense fund as from 1st January, 1919, and thereafter the claim may be paid out of this special fund. The sums involved in this matter are very trivial, and the real purpose of the Amendment is to prevent the necessity of societies having the trouble of keeping open a number of small, individual accounts in respect of married women who cannot be traced. When these women are traced they will be paid out of the reserve fund. This is purely a matter of machinery, and I understand the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to accept the Amendment.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I accept this.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 23.—(Repeal of s. 45 of Principal Act.)
(1) Section forty-five of the principal Act (which makes special provisions as to aliens), shall cease to have effect, and as from the commencement of this Act, Part I. of the principal Act shall apply to all persons who are not British subjects in the same manner as it applies to persons who are British subjects.
(2) For the purpose of the provisions of Part I. of the principal Act relating to reserve values, all persons who were immediately before the commencement of this Act persons to whom the said Section forty-five applied, and members of an approved society shall be deemed to have joined that society at the commencement of this Act, and, subject to the existing transfer values of those persons, reserve values shall be credited to societies accordingly.
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "shall" ["principal Act shall apply"], to insert the words "subject as may be prescribed."
I move this on behalf of my hon. and learned friend (Mr. Butcher). I understand that it will be accepted.
I beg to second the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 27.—(Provisions as to the Mercantile Marine.)
(1) The following Amendments shall be made in Section forty-eight of the principal Act, and that Section shall have effect accordingly:—
( a ) The following portions of the Section shall be repealed, that is to say:—
In Sub-section (1) the words from "but for the purpose" to "as aforesaid";
Proviso ( a ) to Sub-section (2);
In Sub-section (8) the words from "and the rules" to the end of the Subsection;
Sub-section (9).
( b ) The following shall be substituted for the words from "and every four" to "five such contributions" in Subsection (2)—
"and every four weekly contributions paid in any prescribed period by or in respect of any master, seaman, or apprentice while serving in such a ship shall, for the purposes of calculating arrears, be treated as five such contributions."
I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ), to leave out the words "Proviso ( a ) to Sub-section (2);"
I now come to the main proposal in this Bill with regard to seamen. The contributions of the shipowners have been fixed under the 1911 Act at 2d. a week for all the weeks in the year, whether the foreign-going seaman is at sea or not, but the seaman's contribution is 4d., four contributions counting as five, because that was found to be a convenient method of collecting the contributions, as the cards can only be collected when the men return from their voyage; but in effect it means 1d. less a week, or a contribution of 3d. instead of 4d, as in the case of landsmen. It is proposed to put seamen on the same footing as landsmen. The only argument we heard upstairs, and the only argument we have heard in the circular of the Seamen and Firemen's Union sent round the House to-day, is the argument of simplification, and in that I notice they say that simplification is eminently desirable, provided it can be effected without inflicting hardship on the insured person. That is exactly what I hold cannot be done, particularly in view of the fate of my last Amendment. The seamen now scattered about are to have five or six barriers to their joining their own appropriate societies or unions administering the Insurance Act, and in some cases two or three applications have been made and turned down. It is clear, therefore, that these land societies have a rooted objection to losing their few seamen members, and one cannot be surprised that it is so from their own point of view because the seamen are very profitable members. Under the provisions of the 1911 Act it might be held desirable to alter this provision if the forty-two contributions instead of fifty-two had been found insufficient. The Seamen's National Insurance Society, which was set up under the 1911 Act, and has consequently been in operation for nearly six years, find that they have already accumulated under the existing contributions a Reserve Fund on the Benefit Account, Sanatorium Account, and Administration Account of no less than £61,000. That was on the 31st December, 1915, and up to the latest date for which the figures were available they had distributed £145,000. That exactly bears out the calculation on which the Act of 1911 was founded, that there would be so much saving to the societies even with these contributions. It is proposed now to increase the contribution and leave the seamen in land societies unless any Amendment is accepted to allow these increased contributions to be carried forward for the benefit of the individual insured seamen as against arrears which will inevitably occur in the future when the present conditions of shipping, which have been extraordinarily active in quasi naval employment, become a thing of the past. Therefore, I wish to move that these alterations in the Act of 1911, proposed in this Section and imposing on the seamen the obligation of paying exactly the same contribution as landsmen, although under the Merchant Shipping Act shipowners are bound to find seamen in sickness or medical benefits or the equivalent, and consequently they are in a totally different position to landsmen—it is proposed to do nothing to give seamen the special benefit of this increased contribution, but to put them in exactly the same position as landsmen. I think the only justification for the proposal to increase this already more than adequate contribution, while the shipowner's contribution is left as at present, will be to make arrangements to get all seamen into one society so that their excess contribution shall be collected in the form of a surplus to be ultimately distributed in the form of pension. I am getting tired of verbal tributes to the virtue of our merchant seamen. But while they are dodging torpedoes in their efforts to bring food to this country I say they should not be called upon for this increased contribution and get nothing in return more than ½d. per week at the outside, the extra contribution being asked for simply to save the increased cost of clerical work
The society to which I have referred, set up under the 1911 Act, find that although they have lost thirty-seven of their clerical staff for war service and have replaced them by women previously unaccustomed to the work, there has been no difficulty in keeping these accounts. There is none in any society, providing that the bulk of the men are seamen; but if, of course, only a few are seamen it is an intolerable nuisance to keep columns for those few men. The House has just decided that they are to be left where they are, and I must therefore ask in justice to the seamen that we should not impose this further contribution on them, for which there is no actuarial justification whatever, for which we offer them no adequate return, and which we do nothing under the hon. Gentleman's proposal to ensure that in many cases the increased contribution will go to the seaman's benefit at all.
It is said that already there are comparatively few—only three—payments, on an average, a year on cards to which the seamen do not contribute. That average argument is really a complete fallacy. Of course, if a seaman only contributes under forty contributions a year, he would not be touched by the proposal to ask him for fifty-two. If he has contributed thirty-nine or less, then the proposal does not touch him, because he is not paying enough to reach full benefit at present. If, however, he is paying forty-two now and is in constant employment he does not have to pay any more than forty-two in order to get the full benefits of the Act. The hon. Gentleman proposes in this Bill to insist on his paying fifty-two instead of forty-two. That is an additional 3s. 4d. a year out of the wages of every seaman in full employment, and I want the House to understand exactly what is proposed. I should be very glad and interested to hear what arguments there are from the seaman's point of view of insisting now, and before his voice has been heard in the matter at all, on his paying full contributions, and leaving his employer, the shipowner, under the same actuarial calculation as the 1911 Act is based upon.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I hope we shall have a proper explanation from the hon. Gentleman as to why this attack is being made upon the special seaman's insurance society. I am very sorry that owing to a misunderstanding the previous Amendment of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peto) was not seconded. Why is this attack made on the seaman's insurance society? It is quite obvious to anybody who considers the matter that the proper thing to do is to put all the seamen into an insurance society exclusively for seamen. Their conditions are quite different from those of others. They get special benefits under the Merchant Shipping Act, which other insured persons do not get, and the obvious thing for their own interest is to put them in a separate society that can give them better benefits than the others can give. The original Act of 1911 provided for that. There was a great deal of discussion, I remember, at the time, and special arrangements were made for insuring seamen, and a special society was set up in order that seamen should have the advantages that would be received by reason of their belonging to a society separate from the landsmen. This Act is an effort to put every possible difficulty in the way of the seamen's society—[HON. MEMBERS: "No"!]—so far as seamen are concerned—I do not know about the other parties. The object is to put difficulties in the way of leaving the land societies and joining a society exclusively devoted to seamen. I cannot see why they should be penalised. From start to finish, so far as I understand the provisions of this Bill, the seaman who has habitually joined a society exclusively devoted to seamen is worse off. It is nothing but a disadvantage to him. Why? What have the seamen done during this War that the Government should go and penalise them? The only motive, as I understand it, is the grasping character of the land societies who want to keep the seamen in because they are very desirable members, and still more desirable members if you make them pay a larger contribution. Also, there is another society, that has not a large number of seamen in it, but which wants to "crab" the societies devoted exclusively to seamen. I hope the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will succeed in giving some sort of explanation of what is going on. I think he should make it quite plain that he really is trying to improve and not worsen the position of seamen.
I hope the House will not be misled by the suggestion that this Bill is an attack upon seamen. No words need be wasted about the obligation of the country to the seamen; but the Seconder of this Motion can hardly claim to be the spokesman of the seamen, who do not look upon shipowners as their spokesmen. I am not dealing with the point personally, but as a matter of principle. It might be a good thing for all the seamen to be in one union, but that is a different thing to coming here asking Parliament to take sides as between one union and another. That is the situation. I submit that the Seamen and Firemen's Union claim to speak for 70,000 seamen.
It is not true.
They claim to do that, and they say that the other union mentioned is an employers' union. That is their view. I am anxious that Parliament shall not take sides as between one union and another. They say in their statement:—
"The Sailors and Firemen's Union claim to be as wel administered, as efficient and up-to-date as any approved society, and says, without fear of contradiction, that the present Act causes more than twice the amount of work to be done for the mercantile mariner than any other section."
That is the opinion of those who represent a large body of seamen. With regard to benefits it is quite true that there is a nominal increase to the seamen, but it is equally true that for the first time by the provisions of this Act and this Clause as it stands the seamen's dependants are paid an allowance when they are in hospital abroad. I know that the hon. Member will say that the other society pays it, but again I say that we do not want to make it a mere competition between two unions. We want to make it a right provided by the State, and that is what this Bill does. The Bill says distinctly that it is wrong for the dependants of seamen to be wanting money and food whilst their husbands may be in hospital. Provision is made in this Bill for the first time by this small contribution.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say what that is worth a week?
According to the actuaries who are responsible for this Bill, it is more than equivalent for the contribution that is paid. It is an actuarial point, and the Government actuaries are as much entitled to have their opinion as my hon. Friend. There can be no argument, on the ground of simplification, against the Clause as it at present stands. The benefit more than compensates for the increased contribution, and incidentally it enables thirty-nine weeks to entitle a seaman to full benefit. The Ryan Committee heard both sides of the case. They refused to favour either one or the other, and the Bill simply asks for fair play and equality as between both unions. I submit that it would be a dangerous thing to raise the issue of one union as against another, because, as I say, though I agree that it would be a good thing for all seamen to be in one union, in my judgment it ought to be the Seamen's Union and not an employers' union at all.
I sincerely hope that my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment. Nobody would wish to express more strongly than he would the desirability of recognising the rights of seamen, and I am sure that he would dissociate himself from anything like a suggestion that all seamen should be coerced into this national society. He would at once disclaim any such intention. Then I would ask him to allow the trade union which represents the majority of seamen to say for seamen that they are satisfied with the provisions of the Bill as it stands, and wish it to go through.
No one would wish to put additional burdens upon seamen at this time, and I am quite sure that this House, in deciding this question, will keep in view the fact that it is not the intention of the right hon. Gentleman in this Bill. It is quite the opposite. The intention is to give additional benefits of considerable value both to him and his dependants. It seems to me that there has been no case made out for the Amendment. We are asked to consider the immense simplification which will be effected under the Bill as it stands; we are asked to take into account the fact that this additional contribuion would be very small, averaging from 8d. to 1s. per year, while it would result in substantial benefits to the seamen; and we are asked to remember that the matter has been dispassionately and fully considered by the Ryan Committee, who went into the whole ease most carefully, not in view of any controversy between individual associations, but in order to secure the best possible benefits for the seamen themselves. In common with other hon. Members, I have received strong representations from the National Sailors' and Firemen's Union, and I am bound to say, representing as they do the great majority of seamen, that we ought to act upon the views which they most moderately state and which do not raise any controversy with any other association. I sincerely hope, therefore, that the Government will not accept this Amendment.
After the support the Government have had from all sides of the House it is hardly necessary for me to say that we cannot accept the Amendment. I hope the hon. Member for Devizes will not think I am in any way unwilling to consider Amendments he now proposes, because he has made several useful suggestions to me during the progress of the Bill, some of which have been embodied in it, and I am very much obliged to him for the assistance he has given. It is only his British pluck that makes him fight in the last ditch. If I do not concede this point it does not mean that I have not conceded many points to him. The hon. Member for Hexham suggests that in this Clause we are making an attack upon seamen. That is not so. Our only object is to help national insurance work throughout the country. This Bill and this Clause arise from the recommendations of the Ryan Committee, before which very careful evidence was taken from both sides, and all the points regarding seamen were fully considered. I quite appreciate that there are many points which might be argued with regard to seamen—the Seamen's National Insurance Society and the National Seamen's and Firemen's Union, and the land societies. The problems bristle with some difficulty. If you do not face difficulties you will not get any reform at all. At the outset, when special arrangements were made under the Act of 1911, as regards the Seamen's National Insurance Society it was then understood that it was to be somewhat of an experimental nature. Experience has proved that all the seamen did not go into that society.
The majority did.
Sixty-five per cent. It was hoped that they would have all gone into one society. The House has heard what the National Seamen and Firemen's Union have had to say about it, and I will not quote their circular again. I assure the House that this is an honest endeavour to help the seamen and to help national health insurance. The proposal to treat four contributions as five has been found unworkable, because it applies to foreign-going seamen who are sometimes in the home trade, in the coast-wise trade, and sometimes in shore employment. That leads to the breakdown of the four as to five, to troublesome calculations of bookkeeping and frequently to paying excess contributions. These excess contributions to-day are carried to assist members with regard to arrears. The reason why we propose to abolish these, is because they are not required for arrears. Under this Bill it is not proposed to interfere with the four as to five with regard to arrears. If a seaman pays thirty-nine contributions in a year he will have no reduction of his benefits. Things would be extremely bad in the way of employment, if a man was unable to pay thirty-nine contributions a year, in fact we should be in such a state that it would have to be dealt with in some way other than by insurance. The insurance would not meet it. There is no need to keep the money for arrears. The alternative proposal is that we should further strengthen the idea of using this excess money for arrears. We are advised actuarially from every point of view that it is not required for that purpose. What do we do with the money? We do not take it away from the seaman. We give him two very important new benefits. We use the money for him. In fact, under the present system it goes to the society more than to the member. We are helping the seaman absolutely. One of the new benefits is to his dependants when he is in hospital abroad. The other is that any illness on board ship is not to count. He gets twenty-six weeks' full sickness benefit when at home. It is said that the Seamen's National Insurance Society does that now. If they do they do it illegally. It is subject to surcharge, and any moment the Government auditor may say they are not authorised to do it. Therefore, the giving of these new benefits is much more desirable and much more in the interests of the seamen, and even from the point of view of the hon. Member it is far better to legalise what is being done than to allow it to go on illegally. Therefore, I hope the hon. Member will admit that we are dealing with the subject in a broad spirit, looking at it not from the point of view of one society, but of both seamen's societies, of national health insurance and of the country as a whole, I hope he will not press the Amendment.
Amendment negatived.
CLAUSE 29.—(Disposal of Sums Contributed on Unclaimed Cards.)
Where the Insurance Commissioners are satisfied as respects any sums received by them on account of sales of stamps issued for the purpose of Part I. of the principal Act that no claim has been or is likely to be made by or on behalf of any approved society or any deposit contributor for the crediting of those sums to the society or the Deposit Contributors' Fund, those sums shall, as to nine-tenths thereof, be carried to the Central Fund, and as to the residue thereof be applied in such manner as may be prescribed:
Provided that where any such sums as-respects which the Insurance Commissioners are satisfied as aforesaid represent contributions paid by or in respect of masters, seamen, or apprentices to the sea service or the sea-fishing service, being masters, seamen, or apprentices who were serving on foreign-going ships or ships engaged in regular trade on foreign stations, such proportion of those sums as may be prescribed shall be credited to the special fund to be established under Sub-section (6) of Section 48 of the principal Act, and the balance thereof shall be dealt with as hereinbefore in this Section directed.
I beg to move to leave out the words "proportion of those."
It is useless to move the Amendments to Clause 27. The hon. Gentleman has already indicated that he is perfectly wedded to the proposals of the Bill so far as these contributions are concerned. I move this Amendment in order to find out what his view is with regard to this Clause, which deals with the disposal of the sums contributed on unclaimed cards. It is a remarkable fact that the seamen, who are only 1 per cent. of the total insured persons, are such careless people that the unclaimed cards amount to 82,000 out of a total of all unclaimed cards of 280,000. My Amendments are designed to put the whole of this money, which is something over £15,000 out of a total of £50,000 for England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, to the Seamen's Pension Fund. By Clause 27 we have arranged for what I think is a very satisfactory Joint Committee of the Board of Trade, the Seamen's Society, and the Seamen and Firemen's Union, and on that Committee there are two representatives of the men for one representative of the shipowners. So I think we may consider that we have a satisfactory body to administer it. They have only about £80,000 now of what is called the Lascar money, and I want to add the whole of this £15,000 for the unclaimed cards—their own contribution. Surely the hon. Gentleman cannot say this is an antitrade union Amendment, which is the only argument I have had yet put forward on any of the Amendments I have moved. I only ask that the seamen's own money shall go to the seamen's own pension fund, and I shall be very interested to hear what representative of the seamen will say that is not a reasonable proposal.
I beg to second the Amendment.
I am sorry I am unable to accept this Amendment. It would have the least benefit of all. It proposes that seamen should share in the pool, but should make no contribution to it.
They do not want to share in the pool.
Then you must put down an Amendment that they shall not share in the pool. The Bill provides that they must share in the pool with all other societies. No doubt the hon. Member has had some figures given to him that the seamen's societies will never want to make any claim upon the central fund, but he is a bold man who will say that poverty or distress will never come to anyone or any institution. The hon. Member has no actuarial support behind him, because there has been no valuation yet, and he does not know what position the seamen's societies will be in in the future. At all events, under the Bill they will have recourse to the central fund in the same way that any other society in the country will have. Under the Bill we admit that there are more unclaimed stamped cards of seamen, and we say that in so far as that is so they are to have that proportion put to their credit.
Can the hon. Gentleman say where those words are? The Clause says "the proportion of these sums as may be prescribed." I have not the least idea what they are.
The proportion will be ascertained. You ascertain them from year to year. To what extent the unclaimed stamped cards of seamen are in excess of others will be prescribed by the Commissioners when they have ascertained what the proportion is. The hon. Member's Amendment is a most unbusinesslike proposal. We do everything he is asking for. We cannot agree to a proposal which would enable the seamen to share in the pool without making any contribution.
Amendment negatived.
CLAUSE 39.—(Amendment of s. 69 of Principal Act.)
In Sub-section (2) of Section sixty-nine of the principal Act, the words "in respect of an employed contributor" shall be omitted, and for the words "to make any such contribution" there shall be substituted the words "to pay any contributions," and in Sub-section (3) of Section thirty-four of the National Insurance Act, 1913, the word "person" shall be substituted for the words "employed contributor."
I beg to move, after the words "thirty-four," to insert "and Subsection (6) of Section forty-one."
This is merely a drafting Amendment. The purpose is to make it clear that the Insurance Commissioners may by civil proceedings recover arrears.
I accept it.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 44.—(Amendment of s. 67 of Principal Act in its Application to Scotland.)
Where any appeal or dispute is submitted to the Scottish Insurance Commissioners under Section sixty-seven of the principal Act, the Commissioners, or the referees appointed by them to decide the appeal or dispute, may, on the application of either party, at any stage of the proceedings, and shall if so directed by either division of the Court of Session state a case on any question of law arising in the appeal or dispute for the opinion of either division of the Inner House of the Court of Session, and the procedure in such applications and stated cases shall so far as practicable, be in accordance with the Regulations and practice in Scotland prevailing in stated cases under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, Second Schedule, Sub-section (17) ( b ), provided always that the decision of the Court of Session shall be final.
I beg to move to leave out the words "of the Inner House"
I accept.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: Leave out the words "applications and."
Leave out the word "Sub-section," and insert instead thereof the word "paragraph."—[ Mr. Clyde .]
Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read the third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the third time, and passed.
National Insurance (Unemployment) Bill
Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
It being after Half-past Eleven of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned accordingly at Nineteen minutes before Twelve o'clock.