House Of Commons
Wednesday, 3rd July, 1918.
The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Private Business
Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords],
Glasgow and South Western Railway Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered; to be read the third time To-morrow.
Supreme Court Of Judicature Act (Ireland), 1877
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 28th June, 1918, giving effect to a Rule of Court [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented of Order in Council, dated 28th June, 1918, giving effect to a provisional Rule of Court [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
National Health Insurance Commission (Wales) (Regulations)
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 28th June, 1918, made by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Appeal from Insurance Committee Audit) Regulations (Wales), 1918 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
National Health Insurance (Joint Committee) (Regulations)
Copy presented of Regulations, dated 28th June, 1918, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee and the Insurance Commissioners, the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Deposit Contributors) Regulations, 1918 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers To Questions
War
India
Corrupt Practices (Elections)
1.
asked the Secretary of State for India when the Government of India propose to introduce a Bill providing penalties in the case of corrupt practices in elections for the Imperial and provincial legislative councils throughout India?
The Government of India have asked local governments for their views on this subject.
Telegraph Department (Pensions)
2.
asked the Secretary of State for India what steps it is proposed to take to provide a families pension fund for the Indo-European Telegraph Department in Persia?
As my hon. Friend was informed in reply to his question on the 14th March, 1917, the General Provident Fund is open to the staff of the Indo-European Telegraph Department, subscription being optional with those officers who were appointed before the 1st August, 1909 (the date on which the fund commenced), and compulsory on those appointed after that date. In paragraph 96 of their Report the Indian Public Services Commission made a recommendation in favour of the institution of a family pension fund for the Indian services generally, and this recommendation will receive careful consideration. In the meantime I am unable to consider the question of establishing such a fund for the Indo-European Telegraph Department independently of the other Indian services.
Arms Act
asked the Secretary of State for India whether, in view of the increasing external danger to India, he is yet prepared to consider the repeal of the Arms Act, so that Indians may no longer feel both degraded and helpless in the face of danger?
The Government of India has in contemplation an Amendment to the Schedule of the Arms Act in order to remove racial discrimination. The Act itself does not seem to me to warrant my hon. and gallant Friend's language.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in a country in which there are a considerable number of dangerous wild beasts it is most essential that people should have the right to carry arms?
I admit the force of my hon. and gallant Friend's argument, but a great deal of confusion exists between the Act and the Schedule to the Act. We are going to amend the Schedules to the Act, but I do not think the Act itself requires Amendment.
Is it not the case that licences are given as a matter of course on application for the purpose of dealing with wild beasts?
Enemy Submarines
5.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the reports that two Arctic vessels were recently sunk by a German U-boat in Spitzbergen waters, and that about forty other vessels which were busy sealing and whaling there were in danger of being sunk if the German submarines were left undisturbed; and whether, considering that Spitzbergen belongs to Great Britain, having been proclaimed British territory under treaty with the Dutch in the seventeenth century, he will take steps to give the necessary protection to these vessels, as well as to the employés of the British companies engaged in working the mines there?
The Admiralty will take such steps as are practicable, in Arctic as in other waters, to meet the activities of enemy submarines.
Royal Marines (Pensions)
6.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that Marines serving and entitled to their pensions have not yet received them; and will he look into the matter with a view to their being paid at once?
I regret to say that issue of payment has not yet been made. I explained in an answer to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Reading, on 5th June, that there were a number of difficult questions which had to be decided between ourselves, the War Office, and the Treasury. We, however, cleared them all up, and invited applications for payment from the men a month ago. We have a number of applications before us at this moment, and shall deal with them forthwith. I ought to add, however, that the wide distribution of the men of this corps makes it inevitable that some time must elapse before all claims are satisfied. I need not add, of course, that no man's claim is in any way prejudiced by this unavoidable delay, which I regret.
Will my right hon. Friend explain why it is necessary that the men should make application? He ought to know their names and pay them at once.
Yes; but some men have said they would rather go on getting pay to qualify for increased pension than have the pension paid to them at the present time. We must give them the option.
Having given them the option, most of them have not exercised it, and why in those cases cannot the men's accounts be credited at once with the amount?
I will consider that, but I have explained that we must give them the option.
Bermuda Dockyard (Leave)
7.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has received petitions from the men employed in the Bermuda Dockyard asking that, in view of the prolongation of the War, they may be relieved and sent home; and, if so, will he take steps to grant their request?
A petition of the nature referred to in my hon. and learned Friend's question was received some three months ago from a number of dockyard workmen who are serving at Bermuda under agreement from the home dockyards for the duration of the War. The petition was fully considered, and it was decided, having regard to all the circumstances, that there were not sufficient grounds for relieving the men concerned from their agreement. It was, however, arranged for consideration to be given in any cases in which the circumstances were such as to afford special grounds for the premature return of any of these men.
I may add that the workmen in question have been in receipt of extra pay—7s. in the case of married men, and 3s. 6d. in the case of unmarried men—additional to the usual foreign service allowance, which was introduced in February, 1916, on the understanding that the recipients would be agreeable to serve at Bermuda for the duration of the War. They are also paid all home-yard war increases in addition to home-yard rates, foreign service allowance, and house allowance; also the 12 per cent.Royal Navy (Promotion)
8.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that there are twenty-three leading stokers serving on His Majesty's ship "Chatham" of whom at least twelve are qualified for the rank of stoker petty officer; will he state what is the average length of service of the men so qualified, and whether the prospect of promotion for these men to stoker petty officer is about four a year; if so, will he state whether this congestion is general in the Navy; and what steps he proposes to take to improve these conditions and realise the promises held out by recruiting posters?
I am advised that there is no congestion in the advancements to stoker petty officers, and leading stokers are being advanced after about two years' service in that rating, provided they have passed and been recommended for the higher rating. Our information does not show that there are any leading stokers in His Majesty's ship "Chatham" who come within this category.
Would my right hon. Friend make further inquiries, and ascertain whether it is a fact that it will take two or three years for a man who now stands ninth or tenth on the list to get promotion?
On that point I have said our information does not show. My hon. Friend knows that in the matter of promotion and other matters it is the men's duty to put their case to their commanding officer.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that this has been brought before the commanding officer, and that no redress has been given?
No, Sir.
Coast Watchers (Ireland)
10.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, since the outbreak of hostilities, a number of coast watchers for the Irish seaboard have been recruited; if so, will he say what pay these men earn; are they whole-time officials; what is their average age; do they have to make any affirmation of allegiance; and is the competent naval authority satisfied that these coast watchers are capable of carrying out the work which the present development of the War has imposed on them?
Yes, Sir; a number of civilian coast watchers have been recruited for the Irish seaboard since the outbreak of war. Their pay varies, according to locality, from 22s. to 25s. 6d. a week. They are whole-time employés, working in watches. Their average age is forty-five. They all, on first engagement, sign an agreement to obey orders given them by members of the Coastguard Force. As regards the last part of the question, I have not had time to make local detailed inquiry which would enable me fully to answer this question, but I propose to do so.
May I take it that these coast watchers do not, as a fact, take an oath of allegiance, but merely that they will do their duty to the Admiralty?
I presume they enter into the agreement which all coast watchers take, whether they are in Wales, Scotland, England, or Ireland, so far as I know.
What steps are taken to ascertain the character of these coast watchers? It is notorious that certain of them are very doubtful.
That would be a matter for the competent naval authority on the spot. I have said with regard to the last part of the question that I propose to make a more detailed inquiry.
Has the right hon. Gentleman any reason to doubt that these men do their duty?
Great reason!
57.
asked the Prime Minister whether the War Cabinet are satisfied with the joint responsibility for the watching of the Western seaboard of Ireland, which is exercised by the police, the naval Coastguards, and the Military Intelligence Department; what means have been taken to ensure co-ordination and co-operation of method between these three bodies; and is it proposed to proclaim the whole Western seaboard a military area under the Defence of the Realm Regulations?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. It would not be in the public interest to answer the second part; and as regards the last part, the answer is in the negative.
German Destroyers (Dutch Neutrality)
11.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the German destroyers, in escaping on the 27th June, since Ostend and Zeebrugge are closed, violated Dutch neutrality by entering the Scheldt?
Nothing is known of any such incident, nor is it believed that it occurred.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether Zeebrugge and Ostend are closed to enemy destroyers?
I cannot add anything to what I said a week ago regarding the bottling up of destroyers, but if my right hon. Friend will see the Chief of the Naval Staff he will give him the reason for the view that nothing of this sort did occur.
National Shipyards
12.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty who were the officials responsible for recommending to the War Cabinet the establishment of national shipyards?
The matter is generally dealt with in paragraph 2 of the Fourth Report from the Select Committee on National Expenditure. I may, however; add that the whole question of the shipbuilding resources of the country was placed before the War Cabinet in July, 1917, by the then First Lord, who put in the comprehensive survey referred to by the Select Committee, which had been prepared by the then Navy Controller, the present First Lord.
That comprehensive survey led up to a number of proposals, and these were contingent upon a series of objectives to be aimed at as regards output of new merchant tonnage. The realisation of a figure suggested by the Controller of Shipping involved, according to the memorandum of the then Navy Controller, the present First Lord, the establishment of national yards. The War Cabinet approved the report in principle as a matter of extreme importance and urgency. It was, I understand, further discussed in detail by a Sub-committee on behalf of the War Cabinet. In view of the comments of the Select Committee, we think it desirable that Vote 8, Navy Estimates, should be put down for discussion at the earliest possible date, in order that an opportunity may be given to the House to discuss the Committee's Report, which, as Members know, raises the whole question of the establishment of the national shipyards. I ought to add that Vote 8, of course, covers Navy ship construction, but I am sure the House will agree that it is understood that it would not be in the public interest to go into that matter.Russia
British Commissioner
13.
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any intimation has been received from the de facto Russian Government that our acting Minister, Mr. Lockhart, is persona grata or ingrata to that Government; whether it was because of his sympathy with the Russian Government and people that a new Commissioner has been sent out over his head; and whether the de facto Russian Government was consulted as to this change?
The answer to all three parts of the question is in the negative.
Was the Russian Government consulted as to the advisability of this change?
Certainly not!
Is it not a fact that Mr. Lockhart was withdrawn because he changed his views after investigation?
No, Sir; Mr. Lockhart has not been withdrawn.
Bishop Of Oxford
14.
asked whether a permit has been granted or applied for to enable the Bishop of Oxford to visit America?
The answer is in the negative.
In view of this permit being granted, will instructions be given to the bishop as to the line he should take?
The hon. Member must give notice. I should like to see his question on the Paper.
Aliens (Government Departments)
15.
asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether Richard Starcke, an unnaturalised German in Togoland, has been taken over by the British Government in the Public Works Department; and, if so, whether, in addition, he is permitted to undertake private work as a builder and contractor in any part of the British zone and has full permission to travel there as he may think fit?
I have no recent information regarding this man, but I am asking the Governor for a report.
Military Service
Land Workers
16.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the number of men enlisted as soldiers now employed on the land away from their homes instead of being sent back to their homes, where they could be equally employed; whether all allowances to the wives of such men are upon the full scale; and whether he will consider the advisability of continuing family life combined with economy by the system of allocating to their own districts enlisted soldiers who are sent back to work on the land?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave on the 16th April last to my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor.
Since that reply was given has the evil not greatly spread and accentuated, and will some better steps not be taken than those indicated in the reply?
I indicated in that reply the actual allocation of the men in the districts dealing with food production. I understand that they are making every effort to get the men returned to their own distrcts, where they will be able to live at home.
Labour Groups, France (Leave)
17.
asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the arrears of leave of men in the labour groups in France; whether he is aware that it was understood that no man would be kept in France for more than twelve months without leave unless as the result of unsatisfactory conduct; and whether the War Office will call the attention of the commandants of the labour groups to this undertaking, with a view to leave being given in all suitable cases?
The number of soldiers proceeding on leave depends on the military situation, and, as I explained yesterday, the exigencies of the moment only allow a limited number of troops being granted leave. I can assure my hon. Friend that every effort is made to give leave to all men who have served in France without leave for over twelve months.
Conscientious Objectors
19.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he will consider the release from prison of Douglas J. J. Owen, now in hospital at Walton Prison, Liverpool, seeing that this man is a Quaker and a single-taxer and has been in prison for nineteen months and three times court-martialled and is now broken in health.
If my hon. and gallant Friend will furnish me with particulars of Owen's unit and regimental number, I will have inquiry made.
27.
asked the Undersecretary if he will inquire into the case of Gordon Aston, S.S. 24498, now at the outer guardroom, Whittington Barracks, Lichfield, who has had five courts-martial and has had two years' hard labour as a conscientious objector; and, in view of the fact that the civil prison authorities have refused to accept him as being in a fit state of health for imprisonment, will he give instructions for this man to be discharged from the Army?
I will have inquiry made, and inform my hon. Friend of the result in due course.
Zionist Regiments
20.
asked whether Russian Jews in this country are permitted to join Zionist fighting regiments for Palestine instead of being drafted into Labour Battalions; and, if so, what is being done to encourage such enlistment?
Russian Jews called up for military service under the Anglo-Russian Convention are not eligible for posting to Zionist fighting regiments. They are posted to special units of the Labour Corps.
Would it not be possible to allow these Jews to join Zionist regiments instead of Labour Corps, seeing that they are willing to join Zionist regiments and they are not willing to join Labour Battalions?
I understand that the military authorities have gone carefully into this matter, and, after taking into account all the circumstances, they came to the conclusion that it would be inadvisable to adopt the course suggested.
Is this not a repetition of the War Office treatment of Ireland at the beginning of the War, and could we not have a little more tact and common sense at the War Office?
Salonika Field Force (Leave)
21.
asked why Private J. Johnson No. 8282, Army Service Corps, attached to the Army Ordnance Department, Salonika Field Force, has not been allowed to proceed to this country, although he was granted permission by the General Officer Commanding the Salonika Field Force to return, owing to his age and invalidity, as long ago as last December?
My hon. Friend has been in communication with me about this case. As I informed him in a letter, dated the 29th June, the question of Private Johnson's return home in the circumstances stated depends on the opinion of the medical authorities at Salonika. If the General Officer Commanding has issued specific instructions that this man should be sent home, I have no reason to doubt that such orders would be carried out.
Cases Of Extreme Hardship
23.
asked, concerning the case of a man who is permanently crippled as the result of paralysis, and whose fourth and last son, a boy of eighteen, on whom the maintenance of the father has latterly, to a considerable extent, depended, has been called up for military service, whether, having regard to the fact that the crippled man's other three sons are in the Army, one in hospital suffering from shell-shock, one in hospital wounded in both legs, and another in the trenches in France, and to the further fact that the crippled man is now left at home with a wife and dependent daughter to maintain on a total income of 30s. per week, out of which 7s. has to be paid weekly for rent and 4s. 6d. for insurance, he will make inquiries into the case with a view to discharging the boy of eighteen from the Army if the facts are as stated?
If my hon. Friend will furnish me with full particulars of this case, including the name, regiment, and regimental number of the soldier, I will have inquiry made.
74.
asked the Minister of National Service if he will give instructions that Walter Taylor, of 66, Mosley Street, Blackburn, must not be called up for military service as one of his brothers has died a prisoner of war, a second has been serving in the Army for over two years, and a third is a helpless cripple from birth, and the son in question is the last son at home; will he also take into consideration that this son is Grade 2 and is an overlooker in a weaving shed, which is a protected trade for certain ages; and, further, will he bear in mind, in considering the matter, that the Appeal Tribunal at Preston have just expressed their regret that, owing to the Proclamation cancelling exemptions between eighteen and twenty four years of age, they cannot deal with the case as one of domestic hardship?
In view of cases of extreme hardship brought to his notice, my right hon. Friend decided to relax by administrative action the rules with regard to the recruiting of persons affected by the Proclamations of 20th April and 4th June. He accordingly gave discretion to Directors of National Service in the various regions indefinitely to postpone the call to join the Colours of men whose cases are clearly exceptional, even if outside the strict limits laid down by the Proclamations. I am having inquiries made into the case referred to by the hon. Member, and will inform him of the result.
Vaccination
25.
asked whether instructions have been issued by the Army Council that men refusing to be vaccinated or inoculated are not to have leave?
The answer is in the negative.
Medical Grading
70.
asked the Minister of National Service if he will state, of those medically examined who are within the new age limit as provided by the Military Service Act, 1918, the percentage that has been passed into Grades 1 and 2?
The percentages of men placed by the medical boards in Grade 1 and in Grade 2 is different in each year of age. A comprehensive percentage covering the whole of the new age period would therefore tend to mislead those interested in the results of the medical examinations, and yet would give information which might be of great value to the enemy. In view of these circumstances, it seems undesirable to publish the information asked for.
Can my hon. Friend state what objection there can be to stating the number of men available; how would it convey information to the enemy?
There is a difference between the enemy forming their own conclusions rather on guess-work lines and having information which is officially supplied by my Department.
But if this information would be misleading, is there any objection to giving misleading information to the enemy?
Cases Under Inquiry
71, 72 and 73.
asked the Minister of National Service (1) if he will give immediate attention to the case of Norman Taylor, of 111, Bottomgate, Blackburn, aged eighteen on the 13th June, 1918, who was taken and passed Grade 2 on 20th June and was immediately sent to Kinmel Park and attached to the Manchesters; is he aware that this young man has only worked for six months in his life owing to ill-health, and for the last twelve months he has been continuously under the doctor and was under medical treatment at the time he was called up and passed into the Army; will he explain why this young man was sent into the Army immediately he had been graded and within a week of attaining the age of eighteen; will he see that he is at once returned to civil life and given an opportunity of appealing against his medical grading; (2) if representations have been made to him about the case of Mr. Williams, of 17, Orchard Street, Goldthorpe, near Rotherham, a check weigher in a local colliery; whether he is aware that, notwithstanding the agreement with the Miners' Federation, the colliery companies are allowed to appeal for the exemption of certain classes of workmen, whilst the workmen, who are the employers of the check weighers, are not allowed to appeal through the colliery recruiting Court; whether he is aware that the refusal to exempt Mr. Williams has caused indignation amongst the workmen; what action does he intend to take to continue the exemption of Mr. Williams, whose services as check weigher and men's representative are considered by the men to be essential and indispensable; (3) if he will demand the immediate release from the Army of William Ewart Thornhill, of 32. Montague Place, Shrewsbury, who, on the 14th June was examined by the medical board and passed Grade 3, and then immediately put into the Army and sent to the Royal Air Force, and within a week was sent to France; and, seeing that this man was given no opportunity of appealing against his medical grading and that the understanding that men would be given seven days to join the Colours, he will have a thorough inquiry made into the case and see that the proper action is taken against the persons responsible for this action?
Inquiries are being made into these cases, and I will inform the hon. Member of the result.
Calling-Up Notices
75.
asked the Minister of National Service if he has received a letter, dated 25th June, from the solicitors of H. Fineberg, 64, Brownlow Hill, Liverpool, pointing out that this young man has been following the studies of an analytical chemist, and in July has to undergo an examination which will last several days, and that the local tribunal, in national interests, thought he ought to be allowed to sit for such an examination, and not to be disturbed in his studies by being taken into the Army until after the examination was over; is he aware that the local National Service representative insists that the young man should join the Army at once, and states that the tribunal had no authority to grant him exemption, and that he will be arrested as an absentee if he does not respond to the calling-up notice; and whether, in the circumstances, this young man's calling-up notice will be suspended until the 20th July, in order to permit him to complete his professional examination?
The letter to which the hon. Member refers was sent to the Director of National Service of the North-Western Region, as such cases as that of Mr. Fineberg are dealt with in the regions where they arise, and in which the records of the individuals concerned are kept. I am inquiring as to the action which may have been taken by the Director of the North-Western Region, and will inform the hon. Member of the result.
78.
asked the Minister of National Service if he is aware that notices are being sent to the late residences of men who have been dead for years, ordering them to present them-selves for medical examination; and whether, with the object of sparing the feelings of the relatives of these men, he will take steps to prevent the sending of such notices?
The sending out of calling-up notices is necessarily based on the information collected under the National Registration Act, 1915, and, although every effort is made in co-operation with the local registration authorities to check this information and keep it up-to-date, occasional errors are difficult to avoid. I much regret such mistakes, and should be grateful to my hon. Friend if he can let me know of any specific cases which have come to his notice.
Is it not possible to arrange that the local registrar of deaths should supply the information, which would prevent these notices being issued all over the country?
I hope the hon. Member is mistaken when he says all over the country. The machinery, of course, provides for this information being entered on the National Register, but I am afraid it is impossible to avoid occasional errors.
Inland Revenue Department
91.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether his Department has recently released for military service all clerks in the Inland Revenue Department up to twenty-eight years of age, while retaining as indispensable all surveyors and assistant surveyors; whether the average service of the last-named body is about three years, and in some cases does not exceed twelve months, having previously been in other occupations; and whether the clerks released for military service are at present instructing those assistant surveyors recently appointed how to do the work of tax surveying efficiently?
I may refer the hon. Member to my reply of the 6th ultimo to a question by the hon. Member for West Bradford on this subject. I am sending a copy of that reply to the hon. Member.
Irish Feis (Disturbance)
18.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on the occasion of a leis, or popular gathering for the enjoyment of music and other arts, held at Kilbiggan, King's County, on 23rd June, a number of soldiers, armed with rifles, and a big motor lorry came into the town from Tullamore; and that these soldiers broke up a procession, tore down decorations, entered the Hall Club, where pictures were smashed and a lot of refreshments meant for the artists were devoured, and did other damage, and finally fired many shots, apparently to terrify the inhabitants; whether this was done on military orders; and whether instructions will be given to commanding officers in Ireland to avoid any action calculated to cause suspicion and disaffection?
I find that the hall was searched on the occasion referred to, but that the meeting, which was held in an adjoining field, was not interfered with. Later a procession in military formation marched through the town, and this was stopped. There was no firing. One picture, which was lying on a bench, was accidentally knocked off and the glass broken, but the picture was undamaged.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that very circumstantial and repeated accounts of this affair have appeared in the Irish newspapers, causing a great deal of dismay and discontent, and cannot the right hon. Gentleman say something to relieve that anxiety?
The facts are as stated in my answer.
Naval And Military Pensions And Grants
28.
asked the Undersecretary whether he is aware that Harry Ledsom, No. 22792, 4th Reserve Dragoons, of Heswall, Cheshire, aged between eighteen and nineteen years, was passed as fit by an Army medical board contrary to the certificate of his family doctor, which he produced to the board, and that he joined up on 6th March and was sent to Cambridge Hospital, Aldershot, on 2nd April, and was eventually sent home in charge of an escort on 3rd June, where he died on 24th June; whether the illness from which he suffered was in any way caused or aggravated by his military duties or was due to his original condition before joining the Army; whether he is aware that his mother now only receives 3s. 9d. per week as dependant's allowance for her other son, who is serving East of Suez; and will the War Office say what they are now prepared to do for the mother of these two boys?
I am making inquiry and will write to my hon. Friend later.
30.
asked whether, in those cases where soldiers are working for farmers and living in their own homes, it is proposed to withdraw separation and family allowances as from the 5th July; what rate of wages will such men be paid; and if he will consider the desirability under such circumstances of discharging the men and employing them as civilians?
The allowances in question cease as from the 5th, 7th, or 8th, of July, according to the nature of the allowances. The soldier living at home will in future receive from the farmer an allowance to cover his beard and lodging and the full civilian local rate of wage on a living-in basis; also, from Army funds, his Army pay for Sundays. If the living-in rate and the Army pay do not amount together to as much as his ordinary Army pay the difference will be made up from Army funds.
39.
asked the President of the Local Government Board, respecting the case of a man, crippled by paralysis, whose four sons are in the Army, and who has a wife and daughter to maintain on a total income of 30s. a week, out of which 7s. has to be paid for rent and 4s. 6d. for insurance, whether the man has any claim under the Regulations governing payments of supplementary allowances by the local war pensions committee and the Military Service (Civil Liabilities) Committee for assistance out of public funds through either or both of these committees; and if he will state shortly and in simple language what procedure the man should adopt in order to bring his case before each of these bodies and get an early decision on it?
It is not possible, on the information given by the hon. Member, to state whether the man to whom his question refers is entitled to any supplementary allowance. If he will place the full particulars of his case before the local war pensions committee, it will be inquired into at once.
62.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is in a position to state the result of his inquiries into the adequacy of separation allowances paid to soldiers' families; and, if not now, when he proposes to make a statement on the subject?
I regret that I am not yet in a position to answer this question, but the War Cabinet Committee, to which this question has been referred, hopes to be able to render its Report within the next fortnight.
79.
asked the Pensions Minister whether he will give some information as to the composition of the Appeal Tribunal which deals with the cases of officers who claim that their disability is owing to or was aggravated by military service but who have been unsuccessful in obtaining pensions; whether it includes legal as well as medical members; when and where it sits; and whether he will state the steps necessary for an officer to take who desires to bring his case before such a tribunal?
The Appeals Board is constituted as follows: Chairman, Sir Ernest Pollock, K.C., M.P.; Sir Frederick Taylor, Bart., F.R.C.P.; Sir Alfred Pearce Gould, F.R.C.S.; Captain Albert Smith, M.P. The board meets at intervals, as the cases' to be dealt with require, at Bridgewater House, St. James's. An officer whose appeal to the Ministry of Pensions has been considered and rejected, may ask the Ministry for it to be referred to the Appeals Board. This is then arranged and the officer informed of the date and place.
Tiptree Fire
29.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office the reason for the delay in reimbursing the Kelvedon Parish Council for the compulsory use, on the 29th March, 1917, of their fire engine; whether he is aware that orders were received from Lieutenant Glover, acting for the Commanding Officer of the 26th King's Liverpool Regiment, that the fire brigade should proceed to Tiptree, and that the expenditure, amounting to £4 17s., was consequently incurred by the parish council in making an unnecessary attendance in obedience to superior military orders; and whether the expenditure will now be refunded by the War Office?
My inquiries into this case are not yet complete, but I hope to be able to write to my hon. Friend shortly.
Food Supplies
Horse Food
31.
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that, on the 8th June, 10 tons of baled-out straw were brought all the way from Much Wenlock, in Shropshire, to Ashby-de-la-Zouche, in Leicestershire, to feed the horses belonging to the Food Production Department of the Government, although quantities were available locally, some of the ricks being in urgent need of removal; and whether he will take steps to prevent this waste of railway haulage at a time when the railways are short of wagons, and empower his officials to make use of the local supplies?
Oat straw was demanded, and, according to the information of the district purchasing officer of supplies, there was none available locally at the time, though some has since been threshed and has been acquired by him. Every effort is made to avoid unnecessary railway traffic.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the local official asked leave to obtain a local supply from the ricks?
My information is that the ricks had not been threshed. There was no oat straw available in the locality, and it had to be brought in from elsewhere.
If I furnish him with further information, will he look into the matter?
Yes, Sir.
Grain Mixtures
35.
asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether it is proposed to fix the price of grain mixtures for poultry feeding-stuffs; and whether he is aware that, under the present arrangement, farmers can get better prices for corn they have been fortunate enough to get damaged than that which is fit for human consumption?
I have been asked to reply. Prices of grain mixtures for poultry food have already been fixed. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative. Maximum prices have been fixed for damaged grain, whether home-grown or imported, at a figure considerably lower than the maximum prices for sound grain.
Frozen Meat
36.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether his attention has been called to the delay and inconvenience to the public in the deliveries of frozen meat in the district of Halstead, Essex; whether he is aware that the frozen meat is not forwarded until Friday night in each week, so that it arrives so late on Saturday that it is impossible to be taken the necessary distances of several miles to village butchers; that the wives of agricultural labourers have to walk several miles for meat when better arrangements might enable it to be distributed locally; whether he is aware that queues are more in evidence round butchers' shops in Hal-stead in consequence than ever before; that the present procedure is for the local butcher to acquaint the local buyer, who in practice knows of his requirements, the buyer in turn to notify the local food control committee, who communicate with the deputy meat agent, who in turn passes the matter on to the meat agent, who, in his turn, sends on to the associated meat importers' committee, who in due course give the order to the appointed wholesaler; and whether he will state what action will be taken to improve the procedure?
I am informed that requisitions for supplies of imported meat have been received on three occasions from the district referred to. No delay appears to have occurred in the dispatch of the meat, though there was a regrettable delay in transit. The procedure adopted in cases where it is necessary to requisition supplies of imported meat for any district is not altogether that described by the hon. Baronet, and it is found that in practice there is no unnecessary delay in dispatch, owing to the fact that the various officers concerned are in constant communication with one another. Every possible effort will be made to accelerate both dispatch and delivery.
Tea
37.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the stock of bonded tea in this country at the end of May last is the largest for that period on record; that at the same period for the year 1913 the total stock of tea in bond in this country was more than 15,000,000 lbs. less than at 31st May, 1918; whether it is the intention of the Ministry of Food to take steps to lower the price of tea to the consumer to a parity of pre-war times; and, if so, as to when the price is to be-reduced, and to what extent?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. I may, however, point out that this stock includes tea under the control of the War Office for Naval and Military requirements, a considerable quantity already sold but, owing to transport difficulties, not delivered, and a considerable quantity entered at the Customs but only in process of delivery from the ships. The price of tea to the consumer is governed not by the volume of bonded stocks but by the cost of the tea to the Government.
Dairymen (Inspection Of Premises)
38.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether a visit of inspection has been made by an official from the Food Ministry to depots belonging to the United Dairies, Limited, in the company of the chairman of the combine; whether it is the intention of the Food Ministry to make similar inspections of premises owned by dairyman who are outside the milk trust; and, if not, will he say why this course is not to be adopted?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. The officials of the Ministry of Food are taking every opportunity to make themselves familiar with the conditions and organisation of wholesale milk depots throughout the country.
Fishing Industry (Territorial Waters)
47.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in order to increase the food supply of this country and at the same time give the greater safety to fishing vessels conferred by shallow waters, the Government will, for the period of the War, open the territorial waters of Great Britain and Ireland to all British fishing craft?
Subject to the requirements of naval strategy, the safety of the fishing vessels themselves, and certain local prohibitions against trawling, territorial waters are open to all British fishing craft.
Ayrshire Farms
66.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Scottish Board of Agriculture were parties to, or had notice of, agreements or arrangements made with farmers in Ayrshire to the effect that, in consideration of the farmer ploughing additional lands this season, he would be allowed to retain the necessary farm labour to secure his crop, exempt from calling up for military or national service till after harvest time, or would at least be guaranteed equally efficient labour in case any hands wore necessarily called up; whether these agreements or arrangements were in fact or were supposed by the Board, as they were by the farmers, to be binding on the military and recruiting authorities; whether the Board have had notice that such agreements and arrangements are not being observed by the military and recruiting authorities, and that essential labour is being taken away by them without any provision or tender of substituted labour of any efficiency to prevent the serious loss of crops and farm produce; and whether the Board of Agriculture has taken, and will take, steps to bring home to the military and recruiting authorities the consequences to the national food supply of the disregard of such agreements and arrangements?
I am not aware of any agreements or arrangements special to Ayrshire, but I know what efforts have been made, and will, I am sure, continue to be made, in the interests of food production, by the Ayrshire farmers. The pressing requirements of the military situation must be the governing consideration at the present time. The Board is quite alive to the risk from the agricultural standpoint involved in the withdrawal of skilled men from agriculture, and all possible steps are being taken to bring home the necessity of substituted labour, as suggested in the last part of the question.
Small-Pox, Suffolk
40.
asked the President of the Local Government Board how many of the five small-pox deaths in the county of Suffolk reported in the quarterly Return of the Registrar-General for the first three months of 1918 were civil, military, and naval, respectively; and what was the vaccinal condition in each case?
I am informed by the Registrar-General that the cases referred to were wrongly entered as small-pox. They should have been entered as whooping cough.
Local Government Board (Woman Clerk)
41.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the temporary woman clerk who has been nominated to a permanent post in his Department had declined to continue to carry out her duties in a temporary capacity; and, if not, will he say why, her services being already at the disposal of the Department, the appointment was made permanent?
The appointment was in the first instance made temporary with a view to the question of its permanency being considered at the end of twelve months' experience. As a result of that experience it was found desirable to make it permanent. The lady in question is engaged upon work with which women are specially concerned and her previous experience has peculiarly fitted her for the post.
Is it intended to make any more permanent appointments of this kind of person outside the regular staff?
I cannot make any promise.
Old Age Pensions
42.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether a labourer, receiving 10s. a week dependant's allowance and over seventy years of age, is debarred from receiving the old age pension if he should earn a few shillings a week by working occasionally on the land and thus exceeding the income of £32 10s. per annum?
If the hon. Member refers to a claimant to an old age pension, a pension cannot be granted unless the claimant's means from all sources, including earnings, do not exceed the statutory limit of £31 10s. a year.. If the hon. Member refers to an existing old age pensioner, he will find particulars of the concession made to pensioners whose means are increased by temporary earnings during the War set out in the reply which I gave to the right hon. Member for Woolwich on the 17th April last.
Would it not be advisable under these circumstances, during the War, to relax this Regulation and get all the available men possible for getting in the harvest?
It is not a question of the relaxation of Regulations, but a question of legislation.
Can my hon. Friend say why the Treasury refuse to people who become seventy years of age the same privileges as are granted to those who are seventy years of age and who are covered by the Treasury concessions?
I have already explained, in answer to previous questions, that the concessions that are made to existing pensioners are made by stretching the law. If we were to apply the same principle to applicants we should not be stretching the law but breaking it.
Does my hon. Friend really wish the House to understand that the Treasury are unwilling to do for people who attain the age of seventy what they are doing for existing old age pensioners?
We are not prepared to introduce legislation to alter the basis of the old age pensions.
Voters' List, Manchester
43.
asked the President of the Local Government Board whether under the scale recently framed by the Treasury the cost of the new lists of voters for the ten divisions of Manchester has been increased from 2s. 6d. to over £25: and whether he will take the necessary steps to have this charge reduced?
As I indicated in my reply to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dumfries Burghs on the 20th ultimo, I am in communication with my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury on this subject.
Cheadle Board Of Guardians (Medical Officer)
44.
asked the Secretary to the Local Government Board whether a further inquiry has been made into the matter of the recent appointment by the Cheadle Board of Guardians and District Council, of a whole-time medical officer as promised; and, if such further inquiry has not yet been made, whether it will be held at an early date and opportunity given for a representative of the local practitioners concerned to be heard?
I have had some inquiries made into the matter by one of my inspectors, the results of which I have communicated to the hon. and gallant Member. I am not contemplating any formal inquiry.
Honours (Members Of Parliament)
45.
asked the Prime Minister what is the total number of Members elected in the present Parliament who have received titles, orders, offices of profit under the Crown, or legal preferment since the present Parliament was elected?
The number in the period mentioned, which dates from December, 1910, is 288.
Order Of The British Empire
46.
asked the Prime Minister how many male recipients of the Order of the British Empire are under military age; and whether he will give an undertaking that in future this Order is not extended to those who are unwilling or unable to serve their country in the field?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative. There is, I believe, no foundation for the suggestion that the honour has been conferred on any person unwilling to serve his country in the field. It has, of course, been conferred on many who by reason of age or sex are unable to do so.
Government Departments (Staffs)
50.
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to the statement that the number of persons now employed by the Government Departments cannot be considered excessive, which appears in the introductory note to the Return on Civil Staff employed by Government Departments presented by the Ministry of National Service on 19th June; whether this statement is based on any conclusions reached by the Treasury Committee on Staffs; if not, whether it is the result of any examination made by the Ministry of National Service or by any other authority; and whether it represents the considered opinion of the Government on the matter?
My attention has been called to the statement referred to by my right hon. Friend, which represents the opinion of the Ministry of National Service as the result of inquiries instituted by that Department independently of those which are being conducted by the Treasury Committee on Staffs.
Has there been any special inquiry by this Department, and, if so, is it not inconvenient that two Departments should inquire at the same time?
I have not looked closely into this matter, but I think this inquiry was from the point of view of the man-power of the country.
Canonry Of Worcester
51.
asked the Prime Minister when the appointments will be made to the canonry of Worcester and the living of St. Mary, Woolnoth?
I am informed that both these appointments are under offer, and that an announcement will be made in each case in due course.
Alien Enemies
52.
asked the Prime Minister if all the recommendations of the Advisory Committee of the Home Office as to internment of alien enemies have been acted upon, and if among those interned any have been subsequently released without the recommendation of the Committee?
The Committee referred to was appointed as an Advisory Committee, and the final responsibility for internment or exemption has always rested with the Secretary of State. I understand that in the years 1915 and 1916 a small number of persons recommended by the Committee for internment were on further inquiry exempted from internment, but a considerably larger number who were recommended for exemption were on full inquiry ordered to be interned. No such case has occurred since the year 1916, the Committee having in the course of that year concluded their inquiries into the applications for exemption. Since that date a few interned persons have been released for special reasons, but in these cases the Secretary of State has acted upon information furnished to him, and not on the advice of any Committee.
Can my right hon. Friend say whether, in the cases where the recommendations of the Advisory Committee were made, the official who failed to carry out their decisions had in his mind the fact that two judges of the High Court used to the weighing of evidence and throe or four influential Members of this House had unanimously recommended that these persons should be interned?
All these things happened before my time, but I am quite sure that the Secretary of State took that fact into account.
Can you give us the number?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain persons have been releasd from internment in view of the fact that they had sons who had died in the service of the country or who were soldiers in our Army?
It may be so. I do not remember the facts of any special case, but I am quite sure that no release was sanctioned without inquiry.
Will my right hon. Friend say who are the two who have been released?
I cannot give any names. There are more than two.
Are there 200?
92.
asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he has received any applications from London boards of guardians for payment and allowances to their relieving officers for services rendered in making inquiries about and payments to the British wives and children of enemy aliens; whether he is aware that extra work has been done by these officers; and, as it is national work caused by the War, can he see his way to consider favourably such applications, so as to prevent any charge for such work being put upon the local rates of a district?
One such application has been received, but the Treasury were unable to entertain it, though they realise the value of the work performed by relieving officers. It must, however, be borne in mind that the cost of the relief to the wives and children is borne by the Exchequer, local authorities being thereby freed from substantial charges which might otherwise have fallen upon them in respect of the support of destitute persons resident within their areas. It does not therefore appear unreasonable that comparatively small administrative expenses in this connection should remain as a charge on the rates.
94.
asked the Home Secretary whether Theodolinda Paster, who was denounced as a spy when returning to Greece on 26th June, 1915, and handed over to a British warship, is now interned in Holloway Gaol; whether any evidence of her being a spy was obtained; and whether, after three years' internment, she can now be brought to trial or deported?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. This woman, who is a German subject, and was in touch with German agents, was interned under No. 14B of the Defence of the Realm Regulations on the recommendation of the Advisory Committee. I think internment was the proper course, and that this is not a case for prosecution or deportation.
Is it not pretty safe to release her seeing that she has been in prison for the last three years?
97.
asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that Rudolf Rocker, a journalist, who threw off his German citizenship seventeen years ago, was for many months interned in Alexandra Palace, was recently sent to Holland, where the authorities sought to drive him into Germany, and that the German authorities refused him admittance, as he was suspected of being an agent of Lord Northcliffe, Director of Propaganda In Enemy Countries; and whether, as R. Rocker is now residing in Holland, he will permit his wife and family to rejoin him there?
Rocker, the man referred to in this question, has claimed to have lost his German nationality by absence from Germany; but by English law he is a German subject, and as such was first interned at the Alexandra Palace and afterwards, at his own request, repatriated through Holland to Germany. I understand that the German authorities sent him back to Holland, but I am unable to say on what ground they did so. He was certainly not an agent of the Director of Propaganda. I am not aware that he has a wife or family in this country.
If I can produce the wife and family, will the Home Secretary look into the matter?
I will watch the efforts of the hon. Gentleman in that direction.
Cabling Facilities
53.
asked the Prime Minister whether any private firms engaged on similar business to the firm of Messrs. Harris and Dixon applied for and were refused the preferential cabling facilities granted to Messrs. Harris and Dixon at the request of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Worcestershire?
No record has been kept of the names of firms who may have applied for, and been refused, special cable facilities, but if my hon. and gallant Friend will supply the name of any firm he may have in mind investigation will be made.
Is it not a fact that any such application would be filed with the correspondence?
I have given my hon. and gallant Friend all the information which has been given to me this morning.
Is it not the case that an official answer was given by the Government some little time ago that there was no preferential list at all in respect of these cabling facilities?
I believe that was so.
Is that answer in accordance with the facts?
Yes; it is.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say how that answer could have been given in view of the fact that there are no records in the Department?
The hon. Member is trying to initiate a Debate.
Mr Leverton Harris
54.
asked the Prime Minister whether he has asked for or received the resignation of the Secretary to the Ministry of Blockade?
The answer is in the negative.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the shares held by the right hon. Gentlemen were not sold until March of this year?
The hon. Member had better give notice of that question.
I beg to give notice that I shall ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House on this urgent matter of public importance.
I can tell the hon. Member at once that he need not worry about it, because I could not treat it as an urgent matter.
On a point of Order. Is it not a matter of urgent public importance that a Member of this House, who is now a Minister, has been proved to have secured for his private firm great trade advantages?
The matter was discussed the other day, and therefore it cannot be discussed again to-day as a matter of urgency.
Fifth Army (Inquiry)
60.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the inquiry into the conduct and actions of the General Officer Commanding the Fifth Army in March last has yet taken place; and, if so, what was the result of such inquiry and by whom was it carried out?
In present circumstances it is not possible to collect all the information bearing on this case so as to enable the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief to submit a definite opinion, but the Army Council are urging that efforts shall be made to complete the investigation.
Has the Commander-in-Chief sent in any report on the conduct of this officer?
I understand not.
Is this officer still in receipt of full pay?
I must have notice of that question.
Is the House to understand that this General Officer was recalled without any report from the Commander-in-Chief, in order to forestall criticism, of the Government?
I cannot add anything to the statement made by the Prime Minister on 9th April.
Ex-Service Men (Business Licences)
67 and 68.
asked the Minister of National Service (1) whether Sergeant R. A. Thurtell, late Royal Field Artillery, after serving three years in France, applied for a licence to open a hairdressing business at Ipswich; that this was refused on the ground that it would compete unfairly with other shops owned by men now serving; whether, in view of the fact that this man was fighting for his country during the years that other tradesmen now being called up were carrying on their business, and the fact that by the decision referred to this man is virtually debarred from earning his livelihood, he will reconsider the case; (2) if a preference is given to ex-Service men of good character when licences are applied for to start a business; and, if not, will a preference be given in future?
The primary object of the Shops Licensing Order is to protect the businesses of serving soldiers. If an ex-Service man proposes to start a new business which would injure the existing business of another soldier serving with the Colours the object of the Order is being defeated just as much as if the applicant had never served in the Army. Apart from this general consideration, the Ministry is very desirous of assisting discharged soldiers, and any application made by Sergeant Thurtell to start a business which is not open to the objection referred to will be favourably considered.
If a man has served three years in France and comes home, if he applies for permission to open a hairdresser's shop, what possible objection can there be?
The objection is that he is seriously damaging the business of another soldier who is a hairdresser in the near neighbourhood.
Colonel ASHLEY rose—
We cannot argue this case. The hon. and gallant Member has had a very clear answer.
Volunteer Force (Special Service)
69.
asked the Minister of National Service whether, in the event of failure to obtain a sufficient number of offers for two or three months' special service from the Volunteer Corps, it is his intention to proceed by Order in Council to call up Volunteers over thirty-five years of age who are in Grade 2; and, if so, whether he will accept Volunteers of this age and grade who hold scheduled occupation certificates with the red card M.M. 130 from the provisions of such Order in Council?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. The Special Service Volunteer Companies have been formed on a voluntary basis, and there is at present no intention of departing from this principle. Men in certain occupations have been excluded from the scheme, even though they might be willing to offer for special whole-time Volunteer service.
National Party Offices (Raid)
55.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that, owing to inadvertence, the question of the raiding of the offices of the National Party could not be raised as a matter of privilege, he will give a day for the discussion of a Motion on the subject?
I am not prepared to give the facilities asked for by my hon. and gallant Friend.
Does not this question affect the future of this House, and would it not be wise to have the matter positively settled at the present time?
I think it relates to the present quite as much as to the future. I imagine that the hon. Member can raise it in the ordinary way on the Motion for the Adjournment.
"Hearts Of The World" Film
58.
asked the Prime Minister whether it was with the consent of the Ministry of Information that a special film called "Hearts of the World" has been produced; what is the cost of the production and how many films have been produced; if these films are lent out free to the various picture theatres or, if not, what charge is made for the loan of them; and in what way the War is helped in this country by the exhibition of films of this description?
I am informed the film entitled "Hearts of the World," which has been exhibited at the instance of the Ministry of Information, was not paid for out of public funds, but by the War Office Cinematograph Committee. It has been exhibited in accordance with arrangements made by that Committee, and has not been lent out free to picture theatres.
Parliament (Prolongation)
59.
I beg to ask the Prime Minister whether it has been decided to introduce legislation for the further prolongation of the life of this Parliament?
I notice that there is a Bill on the Notice Paper to-day, but I ask the question in case the right hon. Gentleman has anything to say upon it.A Bill with this object will be introduced to-day.
Men And Material
61.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consider the desirability of appointing a Select Committee of this House to inquire into and check the expenditure of men and material in this country and abroad in connection with the War in the same manner as has been done in the case of the expenditure of pounds sterling?
I am not prepared to adopt the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Member.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in all successful business organisation it is as important to consider the economical use of manpower and the efficient supply of machinery, etc., as it is to have a sound financial scheme, and will he look into this matter and reconsider it?
I am aware of that, but I do not think the method suggested would be the best to secure it.
Ships Requisitioned
63.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether the steamship "Mongolian" was requisitioned in Eastern waters under a Royal Proclamation authorising requisitions only of ships in home waters; and how many ships have been similarly requisitioned?
The steamship "Mongolian" was requisitioned under the prerogative powers of the Crown, and though the formal letter of requisition referred to the Proclamation of the 3rd August, 1914, the requisition derived its validity from the Royal prerogative, and not from the Proclamation. Many vessels have been requisitioned in the same way.
64.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller whether he is aware of the wasteful use of shipping in the case of vessels under requisition by the Indian Government; whether he controls the shipping activities of the Indian authorities; whether he will specially look into the case of the waste of money and carrying power in connection with the steamship "Abydos" by the Government of India; and, if he has not present powers to prevent waste and mismanagement, will he seek such extended powers as will give unity of command in this respect?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As a result of arrangements proposed by the Shipping Controller last year, his representative in India has been entrusted by the Indian Government with the duty of generally supervising the working of all vessels in Indian waters, including both vessels controlled by the Ministry of Shipping and by the Indian Government, with a view to using all available tonnage to the best advantage. With regard to the case of the "Abydos," I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by the Secretary of State for India on the 26th June, to which I have nothing to add.
65.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller why the owners of the steamship "Mongolian," a company in Calcutta of native Indians, are not allowed to manage the vessel; why the agents for it are now a competing European firm; whether the transfer of ships owned by native Indians to European agents is having a disquieting effect in India, where the idea is thus spread that trade is to be kept in European hands; and what action he proposes to take.
When this vessel was requisitioned, late in 1917, she was urgently required for transport service, and she was treated in exactly the same way as any other similar vessel requisitioned for the purpose. Subsequently, as the vessel was more suitable for general berth cargo than for ordinary bulk cargo employment, she was placed, in the interests of efficiency, in the hands of a liner company, to be run on Government account, a method which has been frequently adopted in similar cases. This policy in no way prejudices the position of the owners, who receive hire on Blue Book terms. I ask my hon. Friend particularly to note, in view of the suggestion in the third part of his question, that if this ship had belonged to an English owner she would have been dealt with in exactly the same way. There is no ground whatever for the suggestion that preferential treatment is given to European as compared with native Indian shipping firms.
British Prisoners Of War
56.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that returned prisoners of war are now forbidden to give interviews to the Press or to answer questions as to their treatment, any official interviews the returned prisoners and learns from him details of the treatment he received while in enemy hands; and can the. House expect in the near future a comprehensive statement from the Government as to the treatment which our sailors, soldiers, and civilians have met with during their period of captivity?
A specially constituted body—the Government Committee, of which Sir Robert Younger is the chairman—has long existed for the precise purpose mentioned. This Committee examines prisoners on their arrival in England unless their depositions have already been taken in a neutral country. A number of Reports have been published, a number more are in course of preparation, and still more are contemplated, though an absolutely complete and final Report will be a work of great magnitude, and cannot, of course, be obtained until all our prisoners are eligible for examination. The Committee have been steadily preparing a mass of valuable evidence for this purpose.
Would it not be possible to present an interim Report on the treatment of prisoners, seeing that the War may continue for some time?
That is exactly what I have said. There have been interim Reports, and more are being prepared.
National Service
War-Work Volunteers
76.
asked the Minister of National Service whether, in connection with his scheme for the enrolment of war-work volunteers, he will explain why a man who has been finally refused exemption by a tribunal is not eligible for protection either as a War-work Volunteer or as a War Agricultural Volunteer; and is he aware that the complexity of the instructions that are being issued by his Department, combined with their indeterminate phraseology, are causing difficulty to those to whom they are addressed.
When a tribunal has fully investigated the facts of a case, and has finally refused an application for exemption, it is clearly impossible to reverse their decisions by giving the applicant protection from recruiting. I have no information which would lead me to think that the instructions are of so complex a character that their interpretation causes difficulty to those to whom they are addressed.
Does every man of forty-five know that if he appeals to a tribunal he cannot then become a War Volunteer or an Agricultural Volunteer?
I think, quite naturally, the hon. and gallant Gentleman a little misapprehends the state of affairs. The general Regulation is that a man actually under call for military service cannot be enrolled for this civilian work, but in order to meet the difficulty caused by the fact that a certain number of men under call had no opportunity of enlisting, they are allowed to enrol as civilian volunteers up to 6th July. But as regards tribunal cases, it would obviously be absurd for a man to go to a tribunal and then to an Appeal Tribunal and be turned down in each case and ordered to serve in the armed forces, and then, through the action of a Government Department, enrol as a civilian volunteer.
Tribunals (National Service Representatives)
77.
asked the Minister of National Service how many representatives at tribunals throughout the country has his Department; how many of these are unpaid voluntary workers; and has he statistics showing how many of them are practising solicitors?
According to the latest Returns in my possession, the number of representatives of the Ministry of National Service at tribunals throughout the country is 1,772, of whom 1,566 are unpaid voluntary workers. I have no statistics which enable me to state how many of these are practising solicitors.
Pensions Ministry (Ex-Soldiers And Sailors)
80.
asked the Pensions Minister whether he will consider the advisability of substituting discharged and disabled soldiers and sailors who have the necessary qualifications for the girls and young women at present employed as clerks, messengers, etc., in his office whenever vacancies occur?
There is already a considerable number of discharged disabled men on the staff of the Ministry. My right hon. Friend is increasing this number gradually as opportunity arises and men with the necessary qualifications are available. We hope also to employ on our female staff a number of the dependants of officers and men who have fallen.
German Patents
86.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether patent agents are allowed to enter into communications with and receive communications from inventors in Germany who desire to protect their inventions in this country by filing specifications in the Patent Office; whether any special licences are granted for that purpose; if so, will he say through what channels such communications are conducted; and whether all such communications are submitted to any Department of the Government?
Patent agents are permitted to enter into and receive the communications referred to by general licence of the Board of Trade. Such communications are made through agents in neutral countries, and are subject to censorship in the ordinary way by the Postal Censor.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think the time has come when we should stop all negotiations on this matter of inventions, having regard to the sinking of our hospital ships?
I said on Monday last that this matter was being very carefully considered, and I hope to be able to convey our decision to the House very shortly.
Paper Control (Returns)
87.
asked the President of the Board of Trade if permission has been given by the Paper Controller to the wholesale newsagents to send back returns during the next month; whether such permission has been given to the retail trade; if not, why the wholesalers, or in many cases the retailers also, have been given this special privilege; and will the privilege be extended to the retail trade?
Some latitude has been given to wholesale newsagents in the matter of returns for four weeks from 24th June owing to the difficulty of making up their orders (especially for magazines and periodicals) in advance, it being necessary for wholesalers to send orders to the publishers before they themselves receive orders from the retailers. No such permission has been given to the retail trade, but any specific cases of hardship brought to the notice of the Paper Controller will be sympathetically dealt with.
Aircraft Insurance (Government Scheme)
88.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is a surplus at the present moment of the Aircraft Insurance Fund; if so, how much it is; and why claims on the fund by insurers are so contested by his Department; and are the ex-gratia allowances up to £500, paid to persons who pay no premiums, kept in a separate account from the amounts paid to those who have duly paid their premiums?
It is not in the public interest at present to publish figures relating to the Government insurance scheme. The payments made under the air-raid compensation scheme are paid out of a separate account. If the hon. Member can furnish particulars of any cases in which he thinks claims under the insurance scheme have been unreasonably contested, I will have them investigated.
Railway Season Tickets
89.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether bonâ fide residents in occupation of a house on a yearly tenancy, for which they pay rates, who have been using season tickets since January are entitled to a renewal of such tickets at the higher rate; whether, in case of a refusal, there is any appeal from the Board of Trade Committee; and, if so, what?
The conditions on which the issue or renewal of season tickets may be refused by a railway company are set out in the Railway Season Ticket Order, of which I am sending the hon. Gentleman a copy. In cases in which a railway company feel unable to issue or renew a season ticket the company's decision is open to review by Mr. Honoratus Lloyd, K.C. No appeal from Mr. Lloyd's decision is provided for.
Letter Delivery, Dawlish
90.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware of the inconvenience caused to the inhabitants of Dawlish owing to the late delivery of the morning letters, 10 a.m., whilst the last outward mail closes at 5 p.m.; and whether, as Dawlish is on the main Great Western Railway, he can afford any relief to this interference with the business of that locality?
I am considering the possibility of providing an earlier morning delivery at Dawlish without increase of expense, and will write to the hon. Member on the completion of the inquiries which I am having made.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it advisable that railway companies and the Post Office should act more in accord with the public interest, and was it necessary to remove the appliances for catching the mails from non-stopping trains?
The hon. Member should give notice of that question. It deals with details about which the Postmaster cannot possibly know.
League Of Nations (Viscount Grey's Pamphlet)
93.
asked the Patronage Secretary to the Treasury what steps he is taking, in his capacity as chairman of the War Aims Committee, to circulate in the United Kingdom the pamphlet recently issued by Lord Grey on the subject of the League of Nations?
The circulation of Lord Grey's pamphlet by the War Aims Committee will be considered at the meeting to-day.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government declares that this pamphlet has nothing to do with the War or the terms of peace? Under these circumstances, what is the good of using it for propaganda?
These considerations will come under review this afternoon.
Irish Interned Prisoners
96.
asked the Home Secretary whether interned Irish prisoners now in British gaols have been allowed to receive and read the Official Parliamentary Report of the House of Commons on 25th June; and, if so, whether any excisions or obliterations have been made to prevent them reading the whole of the Debate on Irish affairs?
A copy of the Report was received at one prison for an interned Irish prisoner. This was handed to the addressee, nothing being cut out or obliterated.
American Independence Day
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of moving a formal Resolution on Liberty Day, 4th July, expressing the sympathy and good will of the House of Commons with the Government and people of the United States of America; the terms of such a Resolution to be cabled to both Congress and the Senate?
The Government feel as strongly as my hon. Friend the importance of the object which he has in view. I do not, however, think that it is necessary to adopt the course suggested, as both the House of Commons and the Government have had many opportunities of expressing in the strongest way the feeling of sympathy and good will of the British people to the people of the United States.
Munitions
Midlands Factory (Explosion)
May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions if he can give the House any information referring to the sad accident which occurred at a munition factory in the Midlands?
I am sorry to have to say that, while the latest reports indicate that the interference with output will be less than at first anticipated, the loss of life and the number of injured is greater. It is feared that the number of killed will reach the total of 100, whilst the wounded will be a larger number than that. The House would wish me to say that the staff and employés, according to the reports we have received, behaved magnificently. They never lost their heads, and they were engaged in the work of recovering the killed and wounded even before the dust of the explosion had settled. Many of the workers who had scattered when the explosion took place returned almost immediately. There was no panic, and the work was carried on with such dispatch that the wounded were got away to the local hospital in an incredibly short time. The utmost assistance was given by the local authorities, and the spirit of the whole factory, from the manager to the humblest labourer, was admirable. Before our officer left last night arrangements had been made to resume work in a certain part of the factory on a three-shift basis, and these shifts are now at work. I am sure the House will recognise that these men and women, in the face of a sudden and appalling danger, have by their conduct added a precious jewel to the treasury of British valour.
Is an inquiry being held?
Yes.
Unemployment Insurance (Boot And Shoe Trade)
81.
asked the Minister of Labour whether he has any intention of bringing the boot and shoe trade under a scheme of compulsory unemployment insurance; and, if he has, whether he proposes to consult the council of the boot and shoe operatives before committing himself to new legislation?
There is no intention to deal specially with the boot and shoe trade with a view to bringing it under a compulsory scheme of unemployment insurance. The question of making further provision against unemployment generally, is, however, one of the matters under consideration by the Labour Resettlement Committee which, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, was recently constituted to advise the Minister of Labour in connection with the general problems of resettlement, and which includes representatives of employers and workpeople in the boot and shoe trade. My right hon. Friend has not yet received the recommendations of the Committee on this subject, but should it prove necessary to extend or modify the present scheme of compulsory unemployment insurance steps will be taken, as far as practicable, to ascertain the views of the associations of employers and workpeople concerned before definite proposals are brought forward.
Joint Industrial Councils
82.
asked the Minister of Labour whether persons engaged in industry desiring to set up joint industrial councils have to obtain the approval of his Department before establishing such councils; and, if so, whether one of the conditions of approval is that the proposals must have been prepared by representatives at organisations or associations of employers and employés, respectively, connected with the industry?
The setting up of joint standing industrial councils is primarily a matter for the industries concerned, and the functions of the Ministry of Labour in this connection are limited to affording such advice and assistance as the bodies promoting a council may desire. Before, however, a joint standing industrial council can be recognised as the official standing consultative committee to the Government on questions affecting the industry which it represents, the Minister requires to be satisfied that the council is thoroughly representative of the industry. He could not recognise any council which did not consist of representatives of the organisations of the employers and workpeople in the industry, in accordance with the recommendations of the Whitley Report.
Is a Government Department which is also an industrial employer and wishes to set up a joint council obliged to prepare a scheme in consultation with trade unions?
I should like to have notice of that question.
Death Of Viscount Rhondda
I greatly regret to have to announce that Lord Rhondda died this morning. Lord Rhondda was a very old Member of this House, which he entered some thirty years ago, and he was a person well known to an unusually large number of Members, by whom he was much respected. On the formation of the present Government he joined it as President of the Local Government Board. In that office he took, as the House knows, the keenest and most active interest in everything connected with the social welfare of the people. A little more than a year ago he became the Minister of Food. At that time that office was probably the most difficult in the Government. Lord Rhondda fully realised the difficulties. He was naturally reluctant to accept the post, but he did so, as I know, entirely from a Benee of duty. After assuming office the difficulties, owing to the submarine campaign, continued to increase, but he faced them with a quiet courage, with a tenacity of purpose and with a businesslike sagacity which in the end enabled him largely to overcome them, and he won for himself and for his Department the respect of Parliament and the country. The seeds of the illness from which he died were, there is reason to believe, laid in the exposure to which he was subjected when he and his daughter were among the victims of the "Lusitania"; but I cannot help thinking that his devotion to duty, the strain of his office, and the worries and anxieties inseparable from it, had weakened his constitution and rendered him less able to meet this attack. I am sure I am only echoing the feeling of every hon. Member of this House when I express our heartfelt sympathy with the widow and daughter who mourn his loss, and when I express our sense of the loss to the State which his death involves, and our gratitude for the great services which he was privileged to render.
I would like to associate myself in the fullest manner with what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman in reference to the grave loss that has been sustained by the state. Lord Rhondda, or, as we used to know him, Mr. Thomas, was a Member of this House almost the whole time that I have been here, and, while he was with us in the House of Commons, he was always a noteworthy personality for his singular financial and commercial acumen, and his versatile and widespread activities, and for his great independence of judgment. He filled during the last year of his life one of the most difficult and perhaps one of the most thankless offices of the State, and discharged the duties of that office, it can be said without exaggeration, not only with devotion and assiduity, but with great foresight and with tact, and, as I believe, with beneficent results to this country and to the cause of the Allies. The House will join my right hon. Friend in paying the most sincere tribute of respect to his memory and of sympathy for those whom he has left behind.
Divorce Bills
The LORD ADVOCATE reported from the Select Committee on Divorce Bills, That the parties promoting the Miles' Divorce Bill had stated that the evidence of Mrs. Mary O'Mahoney was essential to their case; and, it having been proved that her attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said Mrs. Mary O'Mahoney do attend the said Committee on Wednesday next, at Four of the clock.
Ordered, That Mrs. Mary O'Mahoney do attend the Select Committee on Divorce Bills on Wednesday next, at Four of the clock.—[ The Lord Advocate.]
Message From The Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Amendments to—
Aldershot Gas, Water, and District Lighting Bill [ Lords],
Railway Passengers Assurance Bill [ Lords],
Pontypridd and Rhondda Joint Water Board Bill [ Lords], without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to provide for the division of the testamentary trusts of the late William Alexander Louis Stephen, Duke of Hamilton, Brandon, and Chatelherault, into two separate trusts; and for other purposes." [Hamilton Estates Bill [ Lords.]
Hamilton Estates Bill Lords
Read the first time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
Bills Presented
PARLIAMENT AND LOCAL ELECTIONS BILL,—"to make further provision for the prolongation of the present Parliament and the postponement of Local Elections," presented by the CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER; supported by Sir George Cave, the Attorney-General, and Mr. Hayes Fisher; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 55.]
STATUTORY UNDERTAKINGS (TEMPORARY INCREASE OF CHARGES) BILL,—"to enable the statutory provisions affecting the charges which may be made in respect of certain undertakings to be temporarily modified," presented by Sir ALBERT STANLEY; supported by Mr. Hayes Fisher and Mr. Wardle; to be read a second time Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 56.]
Orders Of The Day
Business Of The House
Ordered, "That the Proceedings in Committee on the Education Bill, if under discussion at Eleven o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ Mr. Bonar Law.]
Education Bill
Considered in Committee.—[ Progress, 2nd July.]
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
New Clause—(Inspection Of Minutes)
The minutes of the proceedings of a local education authority, and, where a local education authority delegate to their education committee any powers and the acts and proceedings of the education committee as respects the exercise of those powers are not required to be submitted to the council for their approval, the minutes of the proceedings of the education committee, relating to the exercise of those powers, shall be open to the inspection of any ratepayer at any reasonable time during the ordinary hours of business on payment of a fee of one shilling and any ratepayer may make a copy thereof or take an extract therefrom.—[ Mr. Herbert Fisher.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."—[ Mr. Herbert Fisher.]
This is a Clause which I welcome. I think that it arises out of the suggestions which I made in an earlier stage of the Committee, but there is one small point in the drafting which requires consideration. This Clause says that the minutes are to be open to the inspection of any ratepayer. In answer to a question yesterday on another Clause, as to whether we ought not to recognise the rights of a ratepayer or a person interested, the President of the Board of Education will remember that in the Clause that we then had under discussion the expression used is "a person interested." Why should you give the person interested the right in one case and the ratepayer in another? This seems to point to some laxity in the drafting, and I shall reserve my right to move an Amendment on the Report stage to put the two Clauses on the same level.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
New Clause—(Amendment Of Education (Choice Of Employment) Act, 1910)
Section one of the Education (Choice of Employment) Act, 1910, which confers on certain local education authorities the power of assisting boys and girls with respect to the choice of employment, shall have effect as if "eighteen years of age" were therein substituted for "seventeen years of age."—[ Mr. Fisher.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move "That the Clause be read a second time."
The Education (Choice of Employment) Act, 1910, enables local education authorities to give boys and girls under seventeen years of age information, advice, and assistance with respect to the child's employment. In view of the fact that the Education Bill introduces compulsory attendance at continuation schools up to eighteen, we think that education authorities should be afforded the opportunity of giving boys and girls assistance with respect to the child's employment up to the age when the obligation to attend the continuation school ceases. This will be a considerable convenience.What is meant by the word "assistance"! Does it mean that the local education authority should be able to give pecuniary assistance?
No.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
New Clause—(Transfer Of Powers In Certain Cases To Non-County Boroughs Or Urban District)
(1) The Board of Education may, after such inquiry as they think fit, make an Order providing that all or any of the powers and duties of a county council under Part III. of the Education Act, 1902, exercised by such county council in relation to any non-county borough or urban district, the population of which is shown by the last preceding Census to have attained the number of twenty thousand, shall be transferred to the council of the said non-county borough or urban district, and as and from the date specified in the said Order the powers and duties to which the Order relates shall be transferred to the council of the said non-county borough or urban district accordingly.
(2) An Order made under this Section by the Board of Education shall, unless the council of the county and the council of the borough or urban district concerned consent, be provisional only, and shall require confirmation by Parliament.
(3) An Order made under this Section shall contain the necessary provisions for the adjustment of property, rights, and liabilities as between the borough or district and the county in which the borough or district is situated, and such incidental and consequential provisions as may appear necessary or expedient (including the modification of any scheme with reference to the system of education in force under the Act.
(4) The Board of Education may submit to Parliament for confirmation any Order which requires confirmation by Parliament under this Section.
(5) If when a Bill confirming an Order under this Section is pending in either House of Parliament, a petition is presented against any Order comprised therein, the Bill, so far as it relates to that Order, may be referred to a Select Committee, or, if the two Houses of Parliament think fit so to order, to a Joint Committee of both Houses, and the petitioner shall be allowed to appear and oppose as in the case of Private Bills.—[ Major Newman.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
4.0 P.M. This Clause is inverted, so to speak, from one of the stillborn Education Bills which preceded the present Bill. I do not myself claim to be an educationist. I have not yet spoken on this Bill and I have not drafted this, but I suggested in what part of the Bill it might be inserted, supposing that it should be adopted by the Government, and I suggest that it should be inserted after Clause 6 of the Bill. That Clause enables certain education areas to federate. My Clause suggests that certain powers of devolution from the county council to certain urban districts and other councils who have attained a certain limit of population should be given. In this Bill there is a somewhat remarkable first Clause—a progressive, comprehensive organisation of education. When I read the Bill I was struck by that Clause, which was very unusual, and I was inclined to put down an Amendment to it, when I saw that the hon. Member for North Somerset had done so. It is intended that this Bill is to be progressive. We want it to be a Bill for people who will work education in a progressive manner. Surely what is wanted in each area is a small band of men who are educational enthusiasts, who will get together and work in a special area, and will, in fact, get something done. I am not for a moment intending to say a word against county councils. I am, indeed, a council man; but I stand for small councils, small areas, and small bodies as against big councils, big areas, and big bodies. Take the case of the county council which looks after the great county one of the divisions of which I have the honour to represent. Surely the Middlesex County Council has almost more than it can do? It has to look after the affairs of a population more than twice the size of that of New Zealand and about half the size of that of Australia. And, apart from that, it is a population which is growing year by year, and which, fifteen years hence, will make Middlesex an area of garden cities, the county being practically all built over. It is obvious that in process of time a county council dealing with a population of something like 3,500,000 will find itself tied by red-tape and will become bureaucratic. Already something of that nature has happened, and perhaps I may be allowed to read an extract from a letter written by the clerk of one of the urban district councils in the Division of Enfield, which I represent, an extract which shows how urgent it is that this new Clause should be introduced into the Bill. The writer of the letter says:That is a concrete example of what may happen in the future. That sort of treatment damps down enthusiasm. It means that if a man enthusiastic in education wants something done and finds himself handicapped by the superior authority of the county council, with the result that he cannot get what he wants and what his council wants, he becomes tired, and retires. That is the sort of thing my Clause is intended to prevent. Take Clause 17 of this Bill. It deals with holidays, school camps, and so on. What a comparatively well-to-do go-ahead urban district council, with a valuable rateable area might want to do in these matters might not prove acceptable to the county council of a great county. The county council would turn down the progressive go-ahead scheme for this particular district on the ground that it was not suitable to the whole county. We want to avoid that sort of thing. Then, again, there is the question of the hardships suffered by urban district councils which, in 1902, just failed to reach the population limit, and have now gone far beyond that limit, and yet have to remain under the control of the county council. Take, again, the case of the urban district council which I have in my mind. It failed in 1902 to reach the population limit. It has now a population of 40,000, and it is certain that in fifteen years' time its population will be over 60,000. Is it not very hard that such a population should in educational matters remain under the control of the county council? There are counties in England with a population of barely 70,000 at the present time which have county councils with full powers in these matters. In the case I am referring to we have a progressive, up-to-date council, with a big and valuable rateable area, which wants to go ahead, and yet because in 1902 it was in the unfortunate position of not quite reaching the population limit it is unable to control educational matters for itself. There are, I think, fifteen urban district councils which come within the limit now who ought to have these powers, and therefore I do suggest to the President of the Board of Education the desirability of making this small concession. If the right hon. Gentleman will read the new Clause he will find that it is purely permissive. It is hedged round with restrictions of all sorts. If I had had the drafting of it, it would not have contained those restrictions. But they are there, and as they have been approved by these urban district councils, I hope the Government will accept the Clause. I can imagine the right hon. Gentleman will say that he does not want to upset the bargain of 1902. I really do not know what that bargain was. I am aware that that Act lost me my election in 1906. It was forced through the House of Commons against the will of one of the parties of the State. Sow we are carrying this Bill through by agreement. But I do suggest that there will be nothing contrary to the bargain in meeting the reasonable wishes of those who support this new Clause."One instance of the disadvantage of education in this district being in the hands of the county council is as follows: Under the Elementary Education (Administrative Provisions) Act. 1907, the education authorities have power to provide medical treatment for the children attending the elementary schools. The Middlesex County Council have not done so, so far as this district is concerned. On either side of us, at Wood Green and Enfield, where the administration of education is in the hands of the local council, there are medical clinics for the school children. Here we have none. A recent answer by Mr. Fisher in the House stated that during 1916, 276 authorities provided treatment and forty-three have no facilities for treatment. We are amongst the latter and have the privilege of assisting through the taxes in paying for the medical treatment in the former. The council are not anxious to set up the suggestion that the Middlesex County Council are negligent in their duties, but in this instance medical treatment would undoubtedly have been provided for the children if the matter had been in the hands of the district council instead of the county council."
If this were indeed a Clause which could be accepted by general agreement the Government would have no difficulty in adopting it, but, so far from it being that, it is of a highly controversial character. It seeks to multiply the number of authorities and to curtail the rating powers of county councils, and it would meet with strong opposition from county councils all over the country. In view of the fact that it is the settled principle of this Bill not to disturb existing educational areas, and not to revolutionise the general administrative system of the country, the Government feels that it is unable to accept this new Clause. It will be perhaps in the recollection of the Committee that the Education Bill introduced in 1917 contained provisions under which, in certain circumstances, and by the machinery of a Provisional Order, the areas of existing Part III. authorities could be merged in the area of the county council, and the Part III. authorities would consequently cease to exist. But that proposal was omitted from the present, Bill for the reason which I stated in the House of Commons, that the Bill did not propose to interfere with the educational machinery set up by the Act of 1902, and that Clause was regarded as involving a breach of the pledge in that respect. In view of these circumstances, I am unable to accept the new Clause, which seeks to carry out an object which, to my mind, is involved in more doubt and difficulty than the course which was contemplated in the Bill of 1917. Under the machinery of the Clause which I have alluded to in the Bill of 1917, it was proposed to make it possible to diminish the number of local educational authorities in the county. The proposal of the hon. Member, however, would have a contrary effect, and for these reasons the Government feel that they cannot accept this Clause.
As a representative of a non-county borough and as one who has been connected with urban district councils since they were formed, I want to support this Clause. There is no doubt there is a great deal of feeling in the country among some of our best local government administrators that a step of devolution of this kind should be taken. I am afraid there is no answer at present to the statement of the Minister that this proposal would raise opposition from the county councils. But we are always prepared for that; indeed, it is impossible to champion district councils and the smaller boroughs in this House without the big authorities coming down and pouncing upon us. Our experience in such matters as gas and water is that we get far better treatment from a, commercial company than from these big authorities. I am certain that in these matters they pursue a mistaken policy. But I am inclined to think that the county councils are rather overburdened, and therefore on such questions as education they should welcome the assistance and help which these smaller bodies might well give. If they would permit these smaller bodies in some way to co-operate, without doing harm to or undermining their own powers, I am sure the smaller bodies would fall in with the suggestion. But the tendency is for the bigger authorities to say, "We do not want your help; we do not want you to interfere."
I was thankful to notice in the speech of the Minister an indication that the Government, at any rate, are not so un-reasonable as that, and that they would be willing, if some plan could be put forward which would not arouse controversy, to see a step taken in this direction. Surely, we have got centralisation enough in this Bill? It would have been very much appreciated if somewhere in the four corners of this measure there had been a real power of devolution which would have afforded an opportunity to some of these hard-working authorities to take their place in the ranks of the workers on educational matters. Many persons in these urban centres have given a good deal of attention to educational subjects. They know the conditions, and they are anxious to render service. The county council will allow these persons to attend to drains, sanitary conditions and things of that kind, but, when it comes to important matters such as education, they are not permitted to interfere. Among the members of these local authorities are a large number of school managers and some who have been teachers, and they would like to take part in the work of education, but the county council is not prepared to give them an opportunity. In the West Riding there are a great many urban districts where those interested in education reside, and they cannot spare the time to travel to the headquarters of the county council in order to attend to educational matters, and, though their interest in educational work is intense, and they are anxious to do something useful, yet they are prevented from doing so. I would point out, further, that the county council cannot enforce attendance in various towns in the efficient manner of those who dwell in the different districts. You must have local people to do that work, and to take their share in the constructive part of education. I very much regret the answer given by the President of the Board of Education, but I hope that before very long he will see whether he cannot devise some way in which these various county boroughs and urban district councils may have their claim met to take part in the educational work of the country.The position we find ourselves in is this: When this Education Bill was introduced first, it had certain provisions in it, and when they were criticised we were told that they were very good, that they had received a very great deal of consideration, that they were most valuable, and that we must stand by them. After a little time there was a second edition of the Bill, in which it was found that certain powers and objects that were contained in the first Bill had disappeared. Later on, there was the third Education Bill, in which various other objects and powers, were thrown overboard. We who are educationists are trying to put back in the third Bill what we considered was excellent in the first edition, and then the President of the Board of Education makes a facing-both-ways speech. When one gets up to criticise him, he talks to his companions on the Treasury Bench, and apparently it is very convenient for him not to listen to what is said. All I can say is that these matters are taken note of, and we hope that, on a future day, first impressions and first resolutions will be reverted to, and that the educational objects and machinery which ought to be in this Bill will have some chance of consideration.
Question put, and negatived.
New Clause—(Dismissal Of Teachers In Non-Provided Schools)
Notwithstanding anything contained in the contract between the managers of a non-provided school and a teacher, a teacher in a non-provided school shall not be dismissed by the managers without the previous consent of the local education authority, unless the dismissal be on grounds connected with the giving of religious instruction in the school, and before any such consent is given the local education authority shall hear and consider any representation that may be made to them on the subject by the teacher.
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
This Clause, which stands in my name, is to safeguard the position of teachers in non-provided schools, and to ensure that no teacher will be dismissed by the managers of the non-provided school without the consent of the local education authority. This matter is not a new one. It was debated at very considerable length in the House of Commons, when the Act of 1902 was passed, and I think I shall command the universal agreement of the House when I say that it was absolutely intended by the House of Commons, in 1902, that the teachers should have this protection; in other words, that they should not be dismissed by the managers without the consent of the local education authority. I know that my right hon. Friend will agree with me in that. In fact it is not arguable to the contrary. Therefore, I think I may refrain from arguing the question whether the principle of my Clause is right or not, for any man of ordinary fairness would desire to safeguard the position of the teachers, and would say that the teacher should not be left to be dismissed arbitrarily by a body of managers for some reason which was apparently good, though was probably bad, but that the teacher should be safeguarded by making it necessary that the consent of the local education authority must be given before the dismissal could take effect. Of course, the Clause does not deal with dismissals connected with the giving of religious instruction in the schools. Why has this Clause become necessary? It has become necessary for this reason: The question has come before the Courts of law on more than one occasion. Everyone is familiar with what happened in Parliament in regard to this question, but the Courts of law decided that, according to the wording of the Act of 1902, that a teacher was dismissable by the managers without the consent of the local education authority. I think this was a great surprise to anyone who had followed the controversy at all. Then came another decision of the Courts of law, which said that the previous decision was wrong, and that the teachers could not be dismissed by the managers without the consent of the local education authorities. Then came a third case. Perhaps this is not very creditable to the Law Courts, but these accidents happen, sometimes partly owing to the bad drafting of the House of Commons. In the third case, it was decided that the teacher could be dismissed by the managers without the consent of the local education authorities. The case was carried to the Court of Appeal, many people thinking that they would get the matter redressed once for all. But the Court of Appeal did not decide the case on the main point at issue between the previous decisions of the Courts below, and so the matter stands. Two of the Law Courts deciding one way, and the third the other way, while the Court of Appeal did not deal with the main issue at all. I do not at all doubt that my right hon. Friend would accept the Clause without demur but for one fact. There is, I understand, an appeal to the House of Lords on this question from the Court of Appeal. Various things may occur in regard to that appeal to the House of Lords. It may be dropped, or the decision of the House of Lords may be in the same sense as the decision of the Court of Appeal; or it may be evaded, and then we will be left in the present state of muddle; or, again, the Lords might decide in a sense adverse, in which case legislation would obviously be necessary to set the matter right. I submit to my hon. Friends two alternatives. Let him accept this Clause as it stands, so as to give effect to the undoubted intention of the House of Commons. It would not be retrospective, and it would not affect the decision of the House of Lords, the case having come before the Courts of law before the Clause was passed. Nor would it interfere with anyone's rights; it would affect no one adversely, and it would establish now the principle which the House of Commons really intended to establish in 1902. If my right hon. Friend sees any difficulty in accepting the Clause, pending the decision of the House of Lords, then I would ask, in case the decision of the House of Lords was not favourable to the teacher, that he should immediately introduce legislation to give effect to the Clause that I propose. If he will give that assurance, then, for my own part, I think that might be sufficient. But if the right hon. Gentleman cannot give that assurance, I should feel myself bound, in the interests of the teacher, and in order to carry out what was unquestionably the desire of the House of Commons in 1902, to go to a Division. I trust, however, my right hon. Friend will give a satisfactory assurance, and will see that the rights of the teachers, as expressly intended by the House of Commons, are maintained.I wish only very briefly to say that I think that the proposal of the Mover of this new Clause is entirely right, and it affords me great pleasure, although I am very often opposed to him strongly in matters of this kind, and on many points connected with education, to give him my whole-hearted support. May I suggest only one thing—perhaps the Attorney-General will listen to the suggestion—that possibly this Clause could be accepted as safeguarding the interests of the teachers pending litigation, so as not to override any decisions which are now pending in the Law Courts. There have been cases, of course, where legislation has been passed in this House pending decisions in the Law Courts, and I think we have had recent examples of that kind in the House. Possibly, while safeguarding litigation already begun, the Clause might be accepted. Of course, it is quite obvious that sooner or later, if litigation takes away the rights of teachers, legislation will be required in some form or other.
I am not surprised that this Amendment has been moved. I think it is very necessary that it should be made sure that a teacher cannot be dismissed without the consent of the local education authority. I may state that in Lancashire, long ago, a small committee was established to deal with these matters. We found it was absolutely necessary to appoint such a body to deal as arbitrators between the managers of the schools and the teachers. I have only one other word to say, that in Lancashire there is great cordiality between the teachers and the local education authorities, as the result of the tribunal which has been set up.
I am not convinced by the arguments of the hon. Member for North Somerset. I am not at all certain that the House of Commons in 1902 intended that the Clause of my hon. and learned Friend should be carried into effect. It is quite easy to get up now and say that the House of Commons intended certain things in 1902, but it is very difficult at this date to prove that was the case. Both my hon. and learned Friend and myself were in the House in 1902. I took considerable interest in the Education Bill of that year, and I think that if any such intention had been shown at that time, it would have been put into the Bill. It must be remembered that in 1902 there was considerable difference of opinion among various sections in the House as to the non-provided schools, and there was a very large body of opinion, of which, I think, my hon. and learned Friend (Sir J. Butcher) was one, who desired that all the rights of the non-provided schools should be maintained. I listened to what the hon. Member (Sir H. Hibbert) said about Lancashire, but it does seem to me that if you say that the managers of a non-provided school are not to have the power to dismiss a teacher, except on religious questions, without the consent of the local education authority, you may be making the relations between the teachers and the managers in the non-provided schools very unpleasant, and you are taking away altogether the power of the managers and saying, to all intents and purposes, that they are not to be the managers, but the local education authority are, because if the managers cannot dismiss their teachers, they will practically have no authority in their schools. I venture to hope, especially in view of the fact that litigation is proceeding at the present time, and that it was understood that this Bill should do nothing to injure the non-provided schools, that the Government will not accept the Clause.
The safeguard given in the Bill of 1902 to teachers in the non-provided schools was very clear. Prior to that date they had in many cases been dismissed for non-educational reasons by managers, and the scandal had become so great that Sir John Gorst, when he represented the Board of Education in this House, brought in a Bill to give them a right of appeal against such dismissal, but when the Bill of 1902 set up the local education authorities the right of appeal was then given to those authorities. The managers were to appoint the head teacher of the denominational school, and were to see that he belonged to that particular denomination; and they were to see also that he carried out his work of religious instruction in the school in a way satisfactory to themselves, and if he failed, or in any way came short in connection with the religious instruction, they retained the right to dismiss him for that reason. But, for all other reasons than that, their right to dismiss him was subject to the assent of the local education authorities. As my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley has said, in Lancashire, and in nearly all the counties in this country, and in most of the county boroughs, there has been set up a committee to investigate the charges between teachers and managers of schools, and these committees sit and hear what is to be said by both sides, or by friends of both sides, and they decide the questions, and they work smoothly. If a teacher deserves to be dismissed, he is dismissed; or if he deserves not to be dismissed, he is retained in his post. But by some unfortunate accident of judge-made law that happy state of things has been interfered with, and the situation before the Committee is this, that, if possible, we should like very much that the President of the Board of Education should accept the new Clause which has been proposed. But if he says, as he may possibly say, that the question is pending in the House of Lords, and that he cannot undertake now to legislate for a situation which may not eventually arise at all, I can understand him. I think, however, he ought to give us some understanding that provided that the decision of the House of Lords upholds the decision of the Court of Appeal, he will then introduce the necessary Amendment to put this matter right.
I hope my right hon. Friend will accept this new Clause. It is a matter which ought not to be decided merely on technicalities of the law, because it has a great effect on the whole structure of education. I believe that this Bill will not succeed unless you get some improvement in the position of the teachers. That would be a fundamental and necessary condition of any success in the working of the measure. We have tried to bring about an improvement in regard to payment, but the status and fixity of tenure of teachers has long been a question of the most difficult kind. The position of the teacher has been so precarious, so uncertain, so liable to the whim and caprice of a small body of managers, that the teacher, apart altogether from his pay, has been greatly injured owing to that fact. The principle upon which those of us who have been making every effort to establish and consolidate the position of the teachers have gone is to give an appeal from a small body of managers to some larger body. Such an appeal in the case of non-provided schools is given if there is an appeal to the local authority. That gives some sound fixity of position to the teacher. Of course, in the case of non-provided schools, you must reserve the right to dismiss on grounds connected with the religious teaching, and that we do not wish to change, but on other grounds it is a matter not merely of detail, but of fundamental and vital principle, that the appeal of the teacher to the local authority should be preserved. And if it has been taken away by varied legal decisions I think it is of the greatest importance, when the matter is now again before Parliament, that the principle should be reaffirmed, as my right hon. Friend will reaffirm it by accepting the Clause.
As the matter raised by my hon. and learned Friend (Sir J. Butcher) is, at least in some of its aspects, a little technical, my right hon. Friend has asked me to reply on behalf of the Department. I hope that no one will think that anybody on this bench—certainly no one who has given attention to the education question as, in one capacity or another, I have done for many years in this House, taking part in education Debates for, I suppose, twelve years—is indifferent to the considerations insisted upon by my right hon. Friend who has just addressed the Committee. Everybody must agree that anything that can reasonably and properly be done to increase the prestige, the freedom, and the independence of the teacher ought to be done. But that conclusion by no means involves the further conclusion that the new Clause that has been moved is one that the Government ought to adopt, and I say quite plainly, at the outset, for reasons which I hope I shall be able to recommend to the Committee, that we are not able to adopt the Clause. The Amendment proposes to alter the existing law in three different respects, which is an ambitious performance for a new Clause at the end of a complicated Bill brought forward in war-time. In the first place, as the law stands at present, it has been decided that Section 7 of the Education Act, 1902, which regulates the relations between local education authorities and the managers, does not confer any special privilege upon the teacher or prevent the managers from dismissing a teacher in their employment just as they could dismiss any other person in their employment. Undoubtedly one result does follow from the dismissal of a teacher by the managers on grounds other than grounds connected with the giving of religious instruction, and that result is that the local education authority ceases to maintain the school, and the school consequently is no longer rate-aided.
The Amendment proposes that the dismissal of a teacher by the managers on grounds unconnected with the giving of religious instruction and without the consent of the local education authority shall be absolutely invalid. What follows from that? If a teacher is so dismissed he will apply to the Courts for a mandamus to restrain the managers from dismissal. That is the first respect in which my hon. and learned Friend's Amendment alters the law. In the second place, the Amendment requires that the dismissal shall be with the previous consent of the local education authority, which is not, of course, required by the law at the present time; and, in the third place, the Amendment requires that before the consent is given the local education authority shall hear and consider any representations which may be made to them on the subject by the teacher. One must go back in this connection to Section 7 of the Act of 1902, which says that the local education authority shall maintain public elementary schools not provided by them, so long as certain conditions and provisions are complied with. In the first place, the managers are required to carry out the directions of the local education authority in the dismissal of any teacher on educational grounds, and if the managers fail to carry out any such directions the local authority shall, in addition to their other powers, have power to carry out the directions themselves. It is necessary to refer to this Section, because the proposed new Clause requires the local education authority to hear and consider the representations of the teacher before they consent to his dismissal. What follows from that? The new Clause does not require them to hear and consider the representations before they themselves direct dismissal, and still less does it require them to hear and consider the representations before they dismiss a teacher in the council schools. It will, therefore, be seen that the effect of the Clause is almost incredibly anomalous. It puts a teacher in a non-provided school in a position of privilege as compared with the teacher in a provided school, and the question whether a teacher was entitled to be heard in a non-provided school would depend upon what really is only an accident, and his right to be heard would be less in those very cases in which there would be most ground for hearing him. That is to say, if the managers and the local education authorities were both agreed that he should be dismissed, he would be entitled to be heard; but if the managers were strongly of opinion that he ought not to be dismissed and the local authority dismissed him over the heads of the managers, he would not be entitled to be heard. Whatever is to be said in favour of the Amendment it cannot, I think, he said that it has attempted any very clear-sighted or fair consideration of the claims of teachers in these two different class of schools.I am quite prepared to drop the last two lines of my new Clause.
I am obliged to the hon. and learned Member for recognising the force of the observations I have made by offering to cut out a part of his Clause, but I think that what I am about to say may show him that his object, with which the Government is not in the very least out of sympathy, is one which really cannot conveniently or even fairly be met in the particular manner proposed by the hon. and learned Member. The consent of the local education authority is required to the dismissal of a teacher, unless the dismissal be on grounds connected with the giving of religious instruction. The result of the Amendment under this head also is very arbitrary. If a teacher is dismissed with the consent of the body responsible to the ratepayers, and with a full sense of responsibility, he is entitled to be heard; but if he is dismissed by a body which is not responsible to the ratepayers and on grounds connected with the giving of religious instruction, he is not entitled to be heard. Experience has shown that cases of alleged hardship connected with dismissal arise quite as frequently out of dismissal on grounds of religious instruction as out of dismissal on grounds relating to secular instruction. That is the answer which I venture to make to the general point made by my right hon. Friend; but with respect to the litigation upon which my hon. and learned Friend dwelt, and upon which he is naturally qualified to express an opinion, I suspect the case which really suggested itself to him in putting this new Clause down is that of Harries and Crawford.
There are two other cases.
Yes, but they are in a different position. Inasmuch as the case of Harries and Crawford has suggested this Clause, if I am to deal with the case at all, I must ask the Committee to be patient while I tell them very shortly bow that case arose and what is the present stage of the case. It is on the present position of that case that I base an appeal to the Committee not to support this Clause at this stage. In the case of Harries and Crawford the diocesan inspector came to an elementary school and put to the pupils certain questions on religious knowledge which, at the trial of the ease, it was admitted the children were unable to answer. The headmaster wrote a letter complaining of the character of the inspection, and it was regarded by the managers as an impertinent letter, and so characterised by them. The managers of a public elementary school are entitled to have that school maintained, under Section 7 of the Act of 1902, so long as they comply with certain conditions, and one of the conditions is that the teacher shall not be dismissed without the consent of the local education authority, except on grounds connected with the giving of religious instruction in the school. In this case the managers dismissed the teacher in consequence of the letter, and then a question arose, capable of infinitely long disputation, as to whether he was dismissed for impertinence or whether he was dismissed on grounds connected with the giving of religious instruction. Mr. Justice Peterson, who had the case before him in the Court of First Instance, said the master had no right to ask for an injunction against the managers to restrain them from dismissing him. My hon. and learned Friend seeks to correct that decision. The case came to the Court of Appeal, which decided that the master was dismissed on grounds connected with the giving of religious instruction, and consequently it was unnecessary to decide the further question whether, if the dismissal had been through impertinence, the consent of the education authority was necessary. This case has now been taken to the House of Lords. It is quite true that, as my hon. and learned Friend says, theoretically the appeal to the House of Lords may be abandoned. On the other hand, there is no reason whatever to assume that it will be abandoned. In fact, such information as I possess is strongly in the contrary sense. The matter is being carried to the House of Lords, and will be tried there. My hon. and learned Friend, who is himself a very distinguished member of the Bar, and understands these things very clearly, is really asking the Committee to do a thing which, within my knowledge, the House of Commons has not been asked to do. He is asking us, when a matter is actually on its way to the House of Lords, and upon which the House of Lords will in due course give a decision, with all the authority of the highest appellant tribunal in the land, to anticipate their decision, and in Parliament to decide the very point which is now on the way to the Lords, and which the House of Lords may decide in the very sense my hon. and learned Friend's Clause requires.
Or may not.
I am surprised to hear my hon. Friend say that. If he means that it is not proper for the House of Commons to wait and see whether the House of Lords does not decide in that sense, I am rather surprised. I advance a counter proposition. What has been said in this Debate to-day will certainly not be forgotten. Arguments have been addressed to the Government, including those of my hon. and learned Friend, whose views are entitled to very great respect. They have been given that respect, and we concede that there is much substance behind what has been said. But when we are asked to anticipate what the House of Lords may do, and not wait to see what they will do, I think such a proposal is extremely un-reasonable. It is not really respectful to the highest appellant tribunal, and it might not be necessary. I hope my hon. and learned Friend will allow it to remain in this way: So far as the Government are concerned, we share his desire that the security of tenure and independence and prestige of teachers in these schools, as in all schools, should be protected by the Government by every reasonable means in their power, and if my hon. and learned Friend asks me to be more precise, in case the decision of the House of Lords should be against him, I am prepared, with the authority of my right hon. Friend, to go this length, but no further, and to say that if the decision in the House of Lords should be adverse to the contentions which are put forward by my hon. and learned Friend, we should be prepared to recommend proposals, the result of which would be to limit the right of the managers to the suspension of the teacher until an opportunity had been afforded to the local education authority to examine the facts and pronounce upon the facts after such examination. I do not think my hon. and learned Friend, on consideration, would be prepared to deny to the managers, who know the facts, the power of suspension until such time as the local education authority was afforded an opportunity of examining the facts. This assurance will, I hope, be treated as evidence of the real desire of the Government to concede every point of substance which has been raised in this new Clause, and as what I have said will naturally be recorded, should my hon. and learned Friend's apprehensions as to the decision of the House of Lords be well founded, he will be in a position to ask that the assurance I have given shall be made good. It will be made good. While meeting every point of substance brought forward, the Government is not prepared to deny to the managers, who know all the facts, and are in immediate contact with the circumstances, the power of suspension pending the examination of the facts by the local education authority and their pronouncement upon them.
As I understand my right hon. and learned Friend, the assurance he gives the Committee is totally inadequate. The point which was raised, and was supported by every speaker except, I believe, the junior Member for the City of London, was this: Aye or no, should the teacher in the non-provided school be dismissed by the managers without the consent of the local education authority? Anything more simple I cannot imagine. Now my right hon. Friend, when asked if he would give an assurance that, if the House of Lords decision was adverse to the teacher, he would introduce a Bill to give effect to that simple proposition, declined, but he would give an assurance that the teacher should not be finally dismissed until the local education authority had time to examine the matter. Does that mean or does it not mean that the consent of the local education authority is required to the dismissal?
I am astonished at my hon. Friend's question. I said in the plainest possible manner that the managers should have the right of suspending the teacher until the local education authority examined the facts, and pronounced upon the facts after such examination.
I know my right hon. and learned Friend is astonished at my stupidity. I am astonished at his obscurity. Let us discuss this with calmness. What I want to know is, supposing the local education authority, after examining the facts, come to the conclusion that they will not give their consent to the dismissal of the teacher, then does the teacher remain?
Certainly. I said so twice.
If that is so, that gives effect to the simple proposition I put forward, namely, that the managers should not have the power of dismissal without the consent of the local education authority. If that is clear, that is quite sufficient for my purpose, and on that assurance I am quite prepared to withdraw my Clause.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Next upon the Paper are two Clauses, standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset—
I do not propose to move the first—(Employment Conditions)—in any case.
It is out of order. With regard to the second—(Size of Classes)—the hon. Member proposes to introduce in the form of a new Clause a matter which is usually a matter for a code of regulations. I cannot quite say that is out of order, but it would be possible to go through the whole Code, from one end to the other, and have a multitude of new Clauses, if the practice were followed. I think the hon. Member will bear that in mind.
I will.
New Clause—(Size, Of Classes)
The staffing of an elementary school shall provide for not more than forty scholars being taught by any teacher, and the staffing of a secondary school shall provide for not more than twenty-five scholars being so taught.—[ Mr. King.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
I move it on these grounds: I want to assert the right of this Committee to deal with these questions.That might form a precedent, and I have to assert the right of the Chair. It is a very doubtful question, introducing administrative matters into a Bill, and, therefore, I reserve the full right of the Chair to decide on those matters.
Entirely, Sir. I hope you quite understand that in claiming the right of Parliament I do not in any way wish to traverse the right of the Chair?
5.0 P.M. I beg to move this Clause in the hope that we may have from the President of the Board of Education some indication that he intends, with the immense amount of new Grants he is giving to the schools, to reduce the size of the classes, especially during this war-time. Has he been into some of the London schools, where there is terrible overcrowding, and where classes of fifty or sixty are being taught? This, of course, is incidental to the times and conditions under which we are living. I want him to say that something like the standard I have here should be adopted—that in elementary schools forty scholars and no more shall be taught by any one teacher, and that in secondary schools twenty-five scholars are enough for one teacher. Will he, at all events, state that this is the ideal to which he is going to work? We are giving him an immense increase of funds. Do not let us take it out of the teachers and out of the children by overcrowding the classes, by putting a great number of scholars under the care of one teacher. I wish to add only one other remark I was brought up in a public school under one of the greatest educationists that this country has produced in the way of headmasters. One of the principles with which his teaching was always associated was that "every child has as much right here as any other child to individual attention from the teacher and a fair chance to make something out of the teaching that he is receiving." He deduced from that that you must have a limited number for each teacher, or else those who were inclined to lag behind, or who wanted a little more personal attention to be brought up to the standard of the class, would not be looked after. I believe that to be a sound educational principle. If you are going to do justice to the child and justice to the classes, you must have a practical limit placed upon the size of the classes. With that object I beg to move my Amendment.I think I may refer to what I said before the hon. Member for North Somerset made his speech on his Amendment. His speech has convinced me that I was right in my caution. This is really an administrative matter and hardly conies within our present purview.
The Committee realises, and I believe the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment realises, that this is a class of Amendment which cannot be accepted by the Government. I gather that he wishes me, if I can do nothing else, to make some declaration of policy in relation to the size of glasses. It is obvious that I cannot commit myself to any precise figure. At the same time I can assure the hon. Member that the Board of Education is fully alive to the point. The influence of the Board will be consistently and continuously exercised in the direction in which the hon. Member desires that it should be exercised.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
New Clause—(Compensation To Existing Officers)
Section one hundred and twenty of the Local Government Act, 1888, which relates to coin pensation to existing officers, shall apply to officers serving under local education authorities at the passing of this Act who, by virtue of this Act or anything done in pursuance or in consequence of this Act suffer direct pecuniary loss by abolition of office or by diminution or loss of fees or salary, subject as follows:—
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
In moving to insert in the Bill the new Clause I have put on the Paper, may I say that there are Clauses in this Bill which may bring about alterations in the areas of the local education authorities and the closing of schools. There may be in other portions of the Bill Clauses which will produce effects which may, and almost certainly will, be injurious to the teachers and other persons who may rank as officers under the local education authorities, which effects should be guarded against, if possible, or at any rate for which compensation should be provided in the ordinary way. Those teachers who are employed in council schools—that is in provided schools—are by the law of the land officers of the local education authority. They have a statutory right to compensation according to the method prescribed in such cases. It has not yet been laid down that teachers in non-provided schools are equally officers and have equal rights in regard to compensation. The principle has been laid down in a good many private Bills. The local legislation committee, again and again in dozens, if not scores, of cases, have approved the principle, and this House upon Second Reading subsequently has adopted the principle in the local Bills whereby alteration in the area of a local authority, or where in other ways a, teacher in a non-provided school became endangered or suffered from anything which arose out of the operation of that particular Bill, carried with it compensation. All I am asking the Committee to do now, and I very much hope they will agree to it—I trust the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education will feel it is the right thing to do!—is to provide that teachers, whether they be council or non-council teachers, or are in provided or non-provided schools, who suffer, or who are ejected through no fault of their own from some post or office attendant upon a change of area or by a particular Clause of this Bill when it begins to operate; that such teachers or officers, blameless in the matter, shall have the proper amount of compensation paid in the proper way, just as compensation is provided similarly for other servants and other persons in the public employ who are ejected through no fault of their own from an office. That is the main purpose of the new Clause. The remainder deals with technical results and methods, and so forth, whereby this compensation is provided. I am not asking the Committee to adopt anything unusual and outside the ordinary practice of local government. We are looking forward to the decision of the case in the House of Lords. However that may be decided, I desire that in this Act we should show no animosity towards one form of school or another—that the same protection and compensation should be extended and given as to teachers in the council schools.I am glad to be able to accept this Amendment. I believe that the oases my hon. Friend has in view in his Amendment will be few and far between. Whether few or many, it is only just that the teachers, in the words of the Amendment, who "in consequence of this Act suffer direct pecuniary loss" should be compensated. The principle involved is an active one. It was put into the Act of 1902, and it seems to me that there can be no objection to its insertion in this Bill.
I want to be clear upon one point. Those of us who have had experience of the compensation of dispossessed officers know that claims sometimes come by surprise. If the effect of the Clause is, as explained by the right hon. Gentleman who moved it, then I am in entire sympathy with it, but I want to put this point: Supposing a teacher has the offer of another post commensurate with the one he holds, has he or has he not the choice of declining that post and of taking compensation?
No!
I take that to be so, but I want an explicit statement from the Minister. It cannot be the same as abolition of office if he is offered a school in the neighbourhood or within a reasonable distance and he keeps in his own occupation. It is not, I say, the same as if he were dispossessed of his post and had to go into a different occupation. I should like it to be clear that, supposing a teacher declined a post in the same neighbourhood or even a little distance away, that then he would not have any claim to compensation.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the acceptance of this Clause, which I understand he proposes to accept, will largely add to the contemplated cost of the Bill? Will there be a very large increase of the estimate which the President made in introducing the Bill; if so, would he say a word or two upon that all-important but rarely noticed aspect of the question?
I believe I can allay the alarm of the hon. Gentleman who last spoke. A similar provision to this was introduced into the Act of 1902. I believe no single claim for compensation has arisen. I doubt whether, as a matter of fact, any claim will arise here in consequence of this Amendment. This Amendment has been moved, and it has been accepted by me, as the lawyers say, ex abundanti cautela. As to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract, he will observe what the first paragraph of this new Clause says:
Reference to Section 120 of the Local Government Act of 1888, which is a governing Act in this matter, shows that there are certain considerations that have to be taken into account. Regard has to be had to the conditions on which the payment was made, and so on—to all the emoluments which he might have acquired if he had not refused to accept the office offered by any body acting under this Act. Therefore, there seems to me to be no occasion for my hon. Friend's alarm."Section one hundred and twenty of the Local Government Act, 1888, which relates to compensation to existing officers, shall apply to officers serving under local education authorities at the passing of this Act who, by virtue of this Act or anything done in pursuance or in consequence of this Act, suffer direct pecuniary loss by abolition of office or by diminution or loss of fees or salary."
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
The next Amendment (Publicity), standing in the name of the hon. Member for North Somerset (Mr. King), is covered by what has already been done.
I rise on behalf of my hon. Friend (Mr. King) to move the new Clause (Tests for Teachers) standing in his name.
The hon. Member must wait a bit. He is not entitled to move for another hon. Member now. He must wait until we have dealt with all the new Clauses.
New Clause—(Amendment Of 7 Edw 7, C 43)
Paragraph ( b) of Sub-section (1) of Section thirteen of the Education (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1907, shall be amended so as to read "The duty to provide for the medical inspection of children immediately before or at the time of or as soon as possible after their admission to a public elementary school and on such other occasions as the Board of Education direct, and to make such arrangements as the Board of Education may direct and approve for attending to the health and physical condition of the children educated in public elementary schools."—[ Mr. Bowntree.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move "That the Clause be read a second time."
The effect of the Clause will be clear. It wants taking in conjunction with Clause 18 of the Bill wherein it is enacted that the local education authority for the purposes of Part II. of the Education Act of 1902 shall have the same powers and duties with reference to making provision for the medical inspection and treatment of children and young persons as a local education authority for the purposes of Part III. of the Education Act, 1902, have under paragraph (b), Sub-section (1), of Section 13 of the Education (Administrative Pensions) Act, 1907. In that Subsection it is laid down that it is the duty of the authority to inspect the children and that they have power to provide treatment. The object of my Clause is to alter that Sub-section and to make it a duty not only to inspect children, but also to treat children. I feel that this is a Clause of very great importance, and I should like to say at once, that, though I think it is probably brought forward in the best way, I am not at all wedded to the actual words, and, if I get the substance, I shall be satisfied with any words that the right hon. Gentleman may think best. Any one who has read the masterly Reports that have been issued from the Board of Education under the signature of the Chief Medical Officer of Health for the past ten years must have been impressed with the extraordinary value of the work that has been done by that department of the Board. We feel that the facts that have come to light with regard to the condition of the children attending school have been of very great and vital importance to the country. It is immensely important at a time when we are passing a Bill of this magnitude through the House to consider what are the facts that have been revealed, with regard to the physical condition of the children. Let me take an extract from the Report of the Chief Medical Officer of Health for 1916. He says:He then goes on to point out how not less than one half of the children suffer from dental troubles, how 500,000 have been found to suffer from defective sight, and how 250,000 suffer from complaints of the ear and throat. He then goes on to say:"Of the children in attendance at school. 6,000,000, we know by medical inspection that many, though not specifically feeble-minded, are so dull and backward mentally as to be unable to derive full benefit from, their schooling. Upwards of 10 per cent. suffer from a like disability on account of uncleanliness, and 10 per cent. also are badly nourished."
He gives utterance to a very remarkable statement which I hope the Committee will consider very carefully. He says that 1,000,000 children are so physically or mentally defective or so diseased as to be unable to derive reasonable benefit from the education which the State provides. It really is an appalling statement that one-sixth of the children in these days are in such a state physically and mentally that they are unable to derive reasonable benefit from the education which the State provides. I have been surprised that that sentence has not been quoted against the right hon. Gentleman by some of those who are rather seeptical of his measure, because if it is impossible for 1,000,000 children to enjoy the full benefits of the education that is provided in the elementary schools, it goes without saying that it is impossible for them to get the full benefit of the continued education which the right hon. Gentleman is hoping to provide in the new schools which he is setting up. Figures like these have made a very deep impression upon all social students in the country, and they feel that to-day, when we are mourning the loss of so many lives, it is enormously important for us to do all that we can to make the best use of the young who are coming forward, not only for their own sakes and for the sake of the development of their personalities, but also for the sake of the general welfare of the country. If hon. Members have read the Chief Medical Officer's Report, they know perfectly well that a large amount of treatment has been undertaken by a number of progressive authorities, and that diseases and physical defects have in many cases been removed by the work-of the education authorities, who have treated the children in the schools or in some other way. The evidence of what has been done in a large number of districts, both rural and urban, in removing these defects by wise treatment, has naturally created a demand in the country that this treatment should be universal, and that it should be the duty of the education authority to treat these diseases in the same way that it is the duty of the authority to inspect the children. The Chief Medical Officer in his Report for 1916 says that not more than half of the children suffering from serious but remediable defects are cured of those defects during their school life. Not half at the present time are being treated. Yet these are defects that can be overcome by wise treatment, and the time has come for this House to take the opportunity of the passage of this Bill to ask the President of the Board of Education whether it is not possible to make treatment compulsory, at any rate in the elementary schools; and when I say "treament," of course I mean treatment in the broad and generous sense as defined in the Chief Medical Officer's Report. If hon. Members will look into this question, they will find that some of the results of the treatment are very remarkable indeed. I suppose, as far as clinics are concerned, the city of Bradford, perhaps, is the best example of an up-to-date service, and if hon. Members would get the last report of the medical officer of health for Bradford, they would find that the number of cases treated has advanced from 841 in 1908 to 14,559 in 1916. If you take two very serious defects, defective vision and defective throat, you will find that about 90 per cent. of the cases are dismissed as cured and the others are simply carried forward, the treatment not being finished. Take the case of 500,000 children in areas where there is no treatment at all, and you will find that in those areas, according to a reply given by my right hon. Friend a few days ago, it is estimated that 17 per cent. of those children are suffering from defective vision and 11 per cent. from defective hearing. There are 85,000 children suffering from defects of vision and 55,000 suffering from defects of hearing, and nothing is being done to remove those defects in those areas. The experience of Bradford and other places show that, at any rate, 90 per cent. of those cases would yield to treatment, and that those children, after treatment, might be considered cured of those defects."And in addition there are numbers with skin diseases, weak hearts, and tuberculosis."
Are those figures cumulative? Are there not cases of blindness and deafness in the same children?
Possibly some of the children are deaf as well as blind, but the figures do not show how many are blind and how many are deaf.
But there will be a certain number?
Yes. It seems to me that there are four points upon which there will be fairly general agreement, or at least I hope so. I submit, in the first place, that the imposition of the duty of inspection by the State carries with it as a natural corollary the duty of treatment, and that the one without the other is a barren remedy and really somewhat of a mockery. Secondly, I believe that there is general agreement that compulsory secondary education can never secure results in cases where the physical basis is poor. The extension of the aid demands a simultaneous treatment of the physical needs of the young, who are supposed to benefit by it. Thirdly, a healthy childhood is the foundation of education. Fourthly, that whilst we ask for this extended treatment because we want a full personality of the children developed, yet it is wise for us at this time to look at the question from the economic standpoint as well.
There is a phrase, which my right hon. Friend uses in one of the Clauses setting up extended continuation classes, in which he speaks of helping the children to prepare for the freedom and responsibilities of adult life. I want to suggest that the first help we can give the children in order to prepare them for the freedom and responsibilities of adult life is to make them physically strong and fit. I am perfectly certain that my right hon. Friend will agree that this has a very important bearing on the industrial position as we find it to-day. In all up-to-date factories now it is the custom, and probably the right custom, to medically inspect applicants before they are placed on the list of employed. If some hon. Members have seen that inspection going on, they must again and again have felt how cruel it seems for a boy or a girl to be told, "You are not strong; you have got a physical defect, and you cannot be admitted to the factory." This is all the more cruel when you know that by wise treatment those physical defects could have been removed. [An HON. MEMBER: "How do you know that?"] I have tried to show that the facts, as revealed by the Chief Medical Officer of Health, prove that these defects can be remedied; that officer, in his Report, definitely said that there are 500,000 children who are not being medically treated, but who, if they were so treated, their defects could be remedied. This really has a very important bearing on the industrial position to-day. I am sure every hon. Member of this Committee is anxious to see a new level of wages in the country, and those who know something about industry are hopeful that a higher standard of wages may be attained; but if this is to be attained, it can only be done by having the men and women physically fit and in possession of all their powers and capacities. At the present time we know that in a number of districts in England year by year children are passing through these schools with these defects, and nothing is being done to remedy them and give those children the inestimable advantage of a healthy and vigorous physique. In support of what I say I ask hon. Members to look at some of the Reports that have recently been issued with regard to the health of munition workers, and if they will read those Reports they will see again and again references to the enormous importance of dealing with the health of the people when they are young. Here is a short extract:"There we are reminded that if a man is to live a life at the top of his capacity in body and mind and able to work with the highest powers and to grow in strength and the joy of life, the seeds of disease must be uprooted at their earliest beginning.
So, from all these standpoints, I hope my right hon. Friend will be able in this measure to go further than he has in the direction of securing further treatment for those in elementary schools. The Report for 1916 says:The subject of industrial efficiency is in a larger degree one of preventive medicine."
I think my right hon. Friend will agree that this is a question which should have the most careful consideration by the Committee before the Bill leaves this House. Talking this question over with some of those who are doubtful about the wisdom of this Clause, two or three objections have been raised. I am told that there is a shortage of doctors, and that it will be very difficult to carry this Clause out. I admit there is a shortage of doctors, but there is a shortage of teachers as well, and I would remind those who think that that is a difficulty that the measure is very gradual in the way it comes into operation. I have also been told by some of my hon. Friends that it is unwise to do this pending the establishment of a Ministry of Health. No doubt there is something in that point, but I think it is important for us to bear in mind that a Ministry of Health has not been set up yet. We know the enormous difficulties between Department and Department which are preventing that Bill from being brought forward in this House. I would also remind those who use that argument of the fact that my right hon. Friend when he was dealing with this question of treatment upon an Amendment before the Committee the other day, said definitely that, as far as the Board of Education were concerned, they looked upon the arrangement as an interim arrangement, recognising that there might be certain changes made if the Bill for a Ministry of Health became an Act. I believe that those are the main objections to my proposal, and I hope the President and the Committee will feel that they are not adequate arguments to prevent the adoption of a Clause like this, which, I believe, would have the effect of doing so much to develop the health and the physique of the children. I apologise to the Committee for having spoken at some length on this matter, but I do hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to respond to a very wide sentiment outside, and I believe inside, this House in favour of some action being taken in this direction, and in that way he will do something to repair effectively the awful ravages that are being made by this War."It cannot be too clearly understood that every step in the direction of making and keeping school children healthy is a step towards diminishing the prevalence and lightening the burden of disease for the adults. A relatively small rise in the standard of child health may represent a disproportionately large gain in physical health capacity and energy of the people as a whole."
It was quite unnecessary for my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Rowntree) to offer an apology for the length of his speech. He has spoken out of the fulness of his heart with great eloquence and sincerity upon one of the fundamental topics which meets every social reformer and everybody concerned with the progress of public education in this country. Although I cannot follow him in his precise proposal it is not from any lack of sympathy with the object he so eloquentlycommended to the Committee. Nobody who has studied the Reports of the Chief Medical Officer of the Board of Education can fail to be impressed with the gravity of the evil to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention or with the necessity for providing a remedy, but when we are asking in this Bill to impose upon local education authorities the duty of providing medical treatment we have to bear in mind two considerations. In the first place, that the school medical service is a plant of recent growth, and that although it was only established in 1907 its progress has been one of the most remarkable facts in our social life. The hon. Member drew attention to the number of authorities which do not at the present time provide treatment. Let me draw the attention of the Committee to the great growth and expansion of treatment provided by the local education authorities since the establishment of the school medical service in 1907. In 1908 there were fifty-five local education authorities who made arrangements for medical treatment. In 1916 that number had grown from fifty-five to 276. In 1908 there were seven local education authorities which provided school clinics. In 1916 there were 219. In 1908, eight local education authorities made contributions to hospitals, and in 1916 the contributions to hospitals were made by eighty-seven local education authorities. In 1908 twenty-one local education authorities made provision for the supply of spectacles to school children. In 1916, 216 local education authorities made such provision. I think, therefore, that although we have not achieved everything, the Committee may be satisfied that the progress under our present system has been very rapid and very encouraging, and it is the view of the Board that we may leave the progress and development of medical treatment to the voluntary action of local education authorities, stimulated and encouraged, as it will always be, by the constant pressure of the Board of Education. After all, the Committee must remember that the task of remedying the ailments of childhood is a great task, and in the words of the Greek philosopher,
I submit it would be the wisest course, at any rate, to continue to allow treatment to be provided by the voluntary action of local education authorities, so long as the Board is satisfied that there it a constantly expanding and developing area in which the treatment is taking place. Then I think there is a second consideration which ought to be borne in mind by the Committee. If you are going to make it mandatory on the local education authority to provide medical treatment, I think it will be necessary to define more closely than the hon. Member has attempted to do in this Amendment the amount of treatment, and the character of the treatment, which the local education authority ought to be required to provide. Also I think it will be necessary to circumscribe and define the number of ailments to be treated, and I submit to the Committee that that may be a matter of some difficulty. It is tolerably easy to make inspection mandatory on the local education authorities, but inspection is a very definite and circumscribed tiling, and the local education authorities when they are instructed to provide inspection should know exactly what they are required to do. If they are compelled and required to provide treatment, then I think they would need more information. For these two reasons, and not from any lack of sympathy with the general object the hon. Gentleman has in view, I feel it is impossible to accept his Amendment."Nothing great can be done without time."
The Committee will appreciate the force of the considerations which the President has just addressed to it, but he will forgive me if I say that we feel that his arguments do not dispose of the plea of my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Rowntree). After all, this Bill is imposing very much higher standards of education and making very much greater demands, not merely upon the intellectual, but upon the physical powers of the children in our schools. It is quite true, as the right hon. Gentleman has suggested, that to provide for the compulsory medical inspection of children is a comparatively simple thing. It was because of its supreme simplicity that this House originally contented itself with making that provision in its Statutes, but the comparative worthlessness of that simple provision, which was commended to the House by its simplicity, speedily became apparent in practice. You discovered, in the process of your inspection, the existence of serious physical ailments, for the remedying of which you had made absolutely no provision. When the Insurance Act of 1911 was before the House some of us urged upon the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, the present Prime Minister, the futility of setting up a national scheme of health insurance when you were doing nothing to stop the sources from which the physical ailments of the adult population proceeded. It was in consideration of that that I urged upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer then the necessity of making provision, by State Grant, for the medical treatment of school children. He was good enough to accept the proposition, and since then a certain State assistance has been given for that purpose. The question is really of very much larger dimensions than the President has suggested to the Committee.
Take the present position of things. You have provision made in your Statutes for the medical inspection of school children, but the machinery by which that inspection is effected is so inadequate that you have to spread your inspection over a series of years and take only certain elements of your school population in a given year. At the present time you are never able to get, within an easy period of time, a complete inspection of the whole of the children in a particular school, so that your inspection to-day, even though it has been in force for so many years—I gratefully acknowledge it has extended itself in the course of its history—is not adequate to-day even as inspection. You are not securing an efficient inspection or a discovery of the physical condition of your school children. In a certain measure of time, by the limitation of the machinery for inspection, you have a large proportion of physical ailments, very materially affecting the educational attainments of your school population, undiscovered for a period of time, which is extremely unfortunate in its ultimate effects. This question of physical treatment lies at the very foundation of any educational arrangements. I believe it is really an extremely shortsighted policy to make demands of a higher kind upon the minds of your children, and, very properly, to raise the standard of your educational qualifications, unless you secure at the very beginning that the children are physically fit to profit by the educational opportunities you offer them. Very much more might be done than the President has suggested, and I would urge him to give further consideration to this point between now and the Report stage. I am quite satisfied that our experience so far has pointed conclusively to the fact that there is a physical condition among the school population of the country which intakes them unable to secure the benefits of the whole of the newer provisions you are providing in this admirable Bill. That being so, it is surely an unwise economy, both of finance and machinery, at the present time to set out with a new, greatly improved, and ex-tended educational system, when you know from the beginning that that new and extended system will be handicapped because of the physical deficiencies of the children which are known to exist. I earnestly entreat the President to give further consideration to this matter between now and Report, and to give his own most admirable scheme, as embodied in this Bill, a much better chance by looking to the foundations upon which that system must rest.I trust that the President has not given us an absolute non possumus this afternoon. I know that his sympathies are with this new Clause. I am convinced that in his own mind he wishes it, but he does not see his way at the moment to put it into operation for various reasons. I should like to re-enforce what the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr. Sherwell) has said. I do not see how the children of this generation are going to benefit by the education which the President is so anxious to give them unless they are adequately equipped from a physical point of view. You cannot expect that they will benefit by the education which we so lavishly bestow upon them at such great pains and such great cost to the nation, unless, in the first place, they are fit and well, or are made fit and well by proper medical attention. I do not sec how anyone can meet that point. Is it economical to spend such vast sums of money on education if, by the admission of the Chief Medical Officer of the Board of Education, the children are not capable of receiving it? I have never heard anybody who was really able to cope with that contention. The only answer I have received is, "It is the best we can do in those circumstances." I would point out to the Committee that if this were a question which concerned the War at the moment, if you could imagine that these boys and girls were potential fighters and that in six months time they would be in the trenches or in France, is there anybody who would hesitate for a single second about medical treatment? There is not a single person in this Committee who would not say immediately, "Let them be inspected and medically treated at any cost in order to make them fit." I admit that the War, in a certain sense, predominates all other considerations at the moment. But we have to think of the future. If I were speaking as a soldier in the House, I should certainly say, "Think of the future, and see to it that the boys and girls who are in our schools to-day grow up to be strong and healthy and capable of having strong and healthy children." We know exactly what will happen. We know perfectly well that a very large proportion of them are not strong and healthy and will not be strong and healthy citizens. From the industrial and the economic standpoint, it is equally true that if you want to succeed in the future you ought to see to the medical treatment as well as to the medical inspection. The hon. Member for Huddersfield pointed out, what the President knows perfectly well, that even medical inspection is not adequate at present, and only touches a certain proportion—I admit that it is now a large proportion—of the children in our schools.
6.0 P.M. One other point, which I am perfectly certain the President will admit to be true. Wherever a local education authority has taken up this question seriously, and has instituted medical treatment as well as medical inspection, has done it scientifically and thoroughly, and been willing to spend a little money on it—by the way, of course, they get their Grants from the Board of Education—that education authority saves its money over and over again in the attendance of children at the schools. I am sure the President is as anxious as anybody could be for the further extension of this medical treatment. May I make a suggestion? I should very much like the new Clause moved by the hon. Member for York to be adopted, but the speech of the President did not seem to be very hopeful on that point, though it was so conciliatory and so sympathetic. Would it not be possible for him to define just how far the local education authority can go in this matter if he thinks it cannot go the whole way? Would it not be possible to say of these diseases of the head, the eye, the ear, and the throat that they should be treated? Because is there anybody who doubts that a child who comes to school with a defective condition of the eyes or nose or ears cannot benefit by the education? We all admit that, and I do honestly think that the Committee would be consulting the best interests of the nation in making it compulsory on every local educational authority to see to it that the child, as far as these special ailments are concerned, is medically treated. You get your money back again if you look at it from that point of view. It is really a sound investment, and I cannot believe that, if all the Members of the House of Commons were present and could hear the President of the Board of Education make his own statement, apart altogether from the Front Bench, as an educationist putting forward the facts he knows to be true, and for the moment dissociating himself from his office and speaking as one who cares for these children as he does, he would have any difficulty in converting the whole House in a moment, if the House wanted to be converted. I do not believe there is very much opposition to this in the House. I believe it is really a question of whether the local education authorities are willing to stand this little bit of extra pressure being put on them. Will it not be possible to make, if necessary, extra Grants-in-Aid for this special purpose? I do not say the treatment of all diseases, but of those special ailments which make it impossible for the child to benefit by the education we are trying to give it. I put that point before the President. I hope very much his speech does not mean an absolute non possumus, but that he will try to meet us, if not the whole way, half-way, and try to make it a little more possible for some of these boys and girls to live a decent life in the future. In my experience in East London I have seen so many lives crippled and maimed and so many boys and girls going through life utterly unable to compete with their neighbours because they never had a fair chance. They were never medically inspected or treated in those days. The State ought to be in these cases in loco parentis, and if the parents do not care enough to get the children attended to—although it is generally ignorance in these cases and not carelessness—the State should see that it is done, not merely for the sake of the child, if you like, though I am thinking of the child too, but for the sake of the nation. If you do not do it, this nation is going to the wall. If you do not make the nation strong and healthy, you cannot compete with the times that are coming. I hope the President will meet us a little way and enable us to let this Bill go out with a clear conscience.I would like in one word to express my deep disappointment that my right hon. Friend has not accepted the new Clause moved by the hon. Member for York. Nobody is more grateful than I am to the right hon. Gentleman for the introduction of this Bill, and I can quite understand his anxiety to follow the line of least resistance to get the Bill through the House as quickly as possible, but I must say I am astonished he does not give a more friendly acceptance to a thing which I think is obviously necessary in the best interests of the country. There is, as hon. Members know, an immense amount of talk going on now about reconstruction. Surely this is obviously one of the most necessary bits of reconstruction the House of Commons could put in hand. There is an enormous amount of inefficiency, unemployables, and physically defective people in this country. They are unemployable, they are physically defective, because their fathers have been physically defective before them, and their sons will probably be physically defective after them. The only way to break down this vicious circle is to provide a good educational system, and our educational system must also provide means of effecting a physical improvement in their condition. Therefore, I am personally deeply disappointed, as I think the whole House will be, that the right hon. Gentleman has not consented to do a thing which I am sure the whole country would have regarded as one of the most necessary things to be done at the present moment. The right hon. Gentleman gave an encouraging account of the progress that has been made. He also quoted the number of pairs of spectacles given out.
No; I quoted the number of authorities providing them.
That does not alter my point. I would like to point out that the Chief Medical Officer finds great fault with the authorities for merely doling out spectacles and thinking they have solved the question of defective vision. It is, as he points out, very largely a physical question, and requires good air, good treatment, and good food. As to the progress that has been made, I would like to remind him of what Sir George Newman does say. He says that less than half of the authorities have made any attempt whatever to provide dental treatment, and, with one or two exceptions, the provision made by the 146 authorities is at present wholly inadequate. There are still approximately 100 authorities which have done nothing for minor ailments or defective vision, and 200 have done nothing for diseases of the ear and throat. What is the consequence? Of the children in attendance at school 6,000,000, we know by medical inspection that many, though not specifically "feeble-minded," are so dull and backward mentally as to be unable to derive full benefit from schooling, that upwards of 10 per cent. of the whole are at a like disability on account of uncleanliness, and that 10 per cent. are malnourished. Perhaps the largest contributor is dental disease, which handicaps the children almost as seriously as it does adolescents and adults. Probably not less than half the children are in need of dental treatment, and a substantial number—not less than 500,000—are urgently so. Again, upwards of 500,000 children are so defective in eyesight as to be unable to take reasonable advantage of their lessons. I think when we read this Report of the Chief Medical Officer we are impressed by the enormous amount of work to be done here, and I hope my right hon. Friend, particularly if he gets pressure from Parliament, as I hope he will before the. Report stage, will reconsider his attitude.
I hope it is not out of order, Sir Frederick Banbury, to express a belief that had you not been in the Chair you would have called attention to an aspect of the discussion to which no one has referred, but which at least will be allowed to be relevant. It is with much diffidence that I venture to intervene among the educational experts and enter the sacred congregation of the social reformers. The real fact is, I submit, with profound respect to the Committee, that a debate has been taking place on social reform, and not on education. The President of the Board of Education most properly expressed his sympathy with my hon. Friend the Member for York. I suppose there is not one Member of this House who does not wish that there should be no diseases of children, that they should all be healthy and strong. One hon. Member addressing the House said every child should have good air, good food, and medical treatment. I heartily wish it might be so; but at whose expense? It is not possible. It is dealing with an ideal and not an actual state. There is a feeling in the country also which I venture to express, because if it be unpopular it is none the less one's duty to express it, that it is rather an odd thing at this moment, when the country is engaged in the War and is incurring unparalleled burdens, which it will meet, if at all, with the greatest difficulty, that the House of Commons should be engaged in busily adding to its commitments. Every day an hon. Member comes forward, in connection with this Bill conspicuously, with some fresh measure of expenditure. As to this Amendment, the hon. Member who introduced it made no effort to deal with the cost. The President of the Board of Education, very properly, said he sympathised with this. Of course, everybody sympathises with sickness and disease and wishes everybody should be healthy. But he said he could not introduce medical treatment into this Bill. I submit it is perfectly clear he could not. He made a rough estimate once that the cost of this Bill would: be £10,000,000. This would be at least another £10,000,000, and what would be the limit? Most children are imperfect in health. Take the greatest schools in the country, where there is no want of money in the parents. They can lavish money in support of the education of their children, and you find these congenital defects remain. The hon. Member (Mr. Alden) said this was a good investment. One hears that over and over again, but surely in investing public money you must look for some immediate return.
A doctor once said to me, "If you spend a shilling on a child before it reaches the age of ten you will save £10 when it is twenty."
As an arithmetical proposition, that is one of the most absolutely foolish I ever heard. In the first place, it is absolutely incapable of proof, and, in the second, it is improbable to an extent that makes it almost ridiculous. No hon. Member of this House can for a moment deny that this admirable proposal, which I long to see carried out, is absolutely impossible on financial grounds, probably at any time, but certainly at present. Why, then, jeopardise the Bill by piling Pelion upon Ossa, and adding one expense to another, and trying to fit in, by an additional new Clause, no small part of the whole programme of social reform?
As one whose voice is usually heard on the side of retrenchment, and also of voluntaryism, I am glad to see that support of this proposal is general, with very few exceptions. I really cannot understand the attitude of the Government with regard to this question of voluntaryism. The President of the Board of Education suggested that the voluntary methods now being taken should be encouraged. I was one of the four Members who suggested that the great Insurance Act should be voluntary, and I have repeatedly intervened in the Debates on this Bill with regard to certain provisions for continuation education that they should start by being voluntary. But if you have compulsory elementary education at all, and particularly if you have compulsory secondary education as this Bill provides, and on the top of that you have compulsory inspection, there is no case whatever in answer to this proposed Clause. Really, to have compulsory attendance at school up to eighteen, and to compel the whole population to come under the Insurance Act at sixteen, if they commence to earn money then, and to take no steps whatever to see that the young people, when they go to the secondary schools, or when they go to work and come under the Insurance Act, receive adequate medical attention is utter folly on the part of the State. I do not think the expenditure will be anything like £10,000,000. While there are some parts of the Bill where I think compulsion by the State is unnecessarily introduced, yet surely at this point, when it is concerned with the health of the boys and girls, it is utter folly for the State to stop there. Whether the inspection is spasmodic or regular, it means that you lay the position bare, you discourage the teacher, you label the scholar, and there you leave him. Anything more preposterous I cannot understand.
It is not only the physical effect upon the child. What is the effect upon a child to be told that it is suffering from a physical ailment? It affects the child's mental condition. It gets disheartened. It thinks it is in an inferior position when it sees healthy boys in the playground, or girls with skipping ropes, and the child begins to think he has not a very good outlook in life, and the tendency is to become mentally deficient. It is repeatedly the case. When boys and girls of these tender ages are told they are suffering from marked defects which make them inferior to the rest of their companions, you are inviting them to despair, and as they grow up they keep cherishing this grievance and it hinders them from attaining their maximum capacity. They find when commencing work that they would have been saved from a life of agony and trouble if only the State, which had forced them into the school, had also taken care by some provision of a medical character to save them from disease. How do you expect them, after you have educated them and taught them to know the seriousness of their position, to be contented in after life? With regard to the expense, it seems to me it does not matter what it would cost. It does not need any argument to show that it will pay the community. Surely we have long got past the point that any money spent on seeing that they are healthy and strong needs to be recouped in some indirect or roundabout manner. It is recouped a thousandfold every year they live. My hon. Friend (Mr. Rowntree) made a contention which I am sure no business man would answer. How can you say it is all satisfactory to tell young boys and girls that they have a physical defect? How do you expect the increased wages to be paid after the War and during the period of reconstruction unless they are paid to healthy people? I quite agree they will not all be healthy, no matter what we do; but, at any rate, we can do our best. Is the hon. Gentleman (Sir J. D. Rees) in favour of doing nothing? He not merely said it would cost a little money, but he does not say he is prepared to spend a penny. What is his figure? If an hon. Member says it will cost £10,000,000 and that is too much, he ought to say that whatever can be done for £1,000,000 or £500,000 he will contribute. The hon. Member does not really carry us very far.I said this was not educational business, and that no estimate had been made of the cost.
I do not agree with that at all. If there is one Clause which has been put down which is distinctly and strictly educational, this is the Clause. You are now asking boys and girls to attend school even up to eighteen years of age, you are asking them to labour jointly in education and industry for several years of their life and yet, when they come into school at an early age, you satisfy yourself whether they are healthy or not and then do nothing for them. I cannot understand how we can be content simply to lay these diseases bare, to schedule them in Blue Books, convert them into statistics, frighten social reformers, and dishearten teachers and the general public, and leave it there. Surely that cannot be the answer at all! It cannot be the last word of an enlightened President of the Board of Education. If so, it throws us into despair.
I have listened to all this Debate, and as it has proceeded I have rather modified my views. I began to listen to it with considerable sympathy for the views advanced by the hon. Member (Mr. Rowntree), but I shall not be prepared to support him if he goes to a Division. No one expression which has been let fall during the Debate has made a greater impression on my mind than that which fell from the hon. Member (Mr. Alden) in which he said the ill results and the failure of the parents to attend to diseases in the early ages of their children were due not to poverty, but to ignorance. That exactly coincided with what I have always believed to be the truth, and I was pleased to be confirmed in my view by the hon. Member, who has had more experience than most of us. I regard the principle of the State paying for medical treatment for children as a bad one. It is the work of the parents to see their children fed and looked after in all ways. You cannot and never have been able to apply that principle without modification. Therefore, if the parents are unable, through poverty or other cause, to provide the medical treatment that the children want, the State was morally bound, and in 1902 it recognised its obligation, to make it possible for local authorities to do what the parents could not do for themselves. That brings you to the point, Is the State to make it compulsory upon local authorities to do these things or are we to be content to leave it merely permissive? I arrive at my conclusion for two reasons. In the first place, the local authorities know, and will always know, much better than the State what the conditions of the locality and of the parents concerned are. In the next place to lay down the principle of medical treatment as it is sought to lay it down in this Clause is really dealing with the question piecemeal. I suspect the hon. Member (Mr. Alden) is right when he says it is ignorance and not poverty. The remedy for that is to train and educate your parents. Have your medical inspection, let it be real, and bring the information home to the parent and see what effect that has. But further than that it is the duty of the State, and it will be the duty of all of us after the War, to take such steps as we can to secure that the parents themselves receive adequate wages to do these things for themselves. But I would only support the principle, or would have supported it in 1902, if I felt that I could not get it in any other way. If I am told the reason I am not getting it to-day is due rather to ignorance than to poverty, I say remove your ignorance and do not embark upon the slope, which I certainly would not wish to do, unless you are absolutely convinced that it is essential for what you wish to achieve.
I should have thought that so far as argument went there was really no great difficulty in accepting this Clause. I should have thought you might very safely have extended the powers of the State to the medical inspection and treatment of children without it having any demoralising effect or any loss of parental responsibility. I cannot imagine a more innocent or less harmful extension of the State's power. I have been careful in the discussions on this Bill not to press the President of the Board of Education further than he was willing to go. One realises his difficulties, and the difficulties of a Minister in charge of a Bill are best judged by the Minister himself, and though it is always an attractive role to press him to go further than he is willing to go, that course is sometimes attended by ill results on the fortunes and fate of a particular Bill. Therefore, if on full consideration he thinks that he cannot go any further on this particular matter, I should not be in favour of pressing him beyond the point that he thinks it is wise to proceed. The whole Committee has such complete respect for his educational zeal and his educational judgment that I am quite sure we are prepared to give him very largely a blank cheque in what he thinks it wise to propose. At the same time, I cannot help thinking that on this particular occasion this is not quite his last word. I do not think it would be wise to press this Clause to a Division at the present moment. I think it would be a Division which would mean absolutely nothing, and it would not in the least show the strong feeling in the Committee, because for various reasons a great number of hon. Members who are in favour of it and who would wish to vote for it would either abstain or find reasons for voting against it. However, if the right hon. Gentleman can, give us some hope that before the Report stage he will consider the matter, with a view of making his own proposals, it would be very wise to wait until the Report stage. I quite realise, and I think the whole Committee must realise, that this is largely a question of time. It is obvious you cannot do the thing at the present moment. You have not got the doctors. You cannot establish the service, because they are not there. Therefore, there must be some time before it comes into force. There may be other questions of arrangement which the right hon. Gentleman's advisers might suggest. There might be counsels of prudence and limitations on points of detail. No doubt the matter does require further consideration, and I think if the President, in deference to the strong feeling there is in the Committee, could hold out some hope of a more specific and more definite proposal on the Report stage it would give a great deal of satisfaction to a large body of feeling.
As there seems to be a very large body of opinion in the Committee in favour of further consideration of this question, I should be very glad to do what I can to review it and see whether I can bring forward any proposals which are watertight and administratively possible on the Report stage, If my hon. Friend would withdraw his Amendment on that understanding, I will undertake to consider the mater.
Having regard to what the President has said, I gladly ask leave to withdraw the Amendment and to express the hope that when the Report stage comes we shall find that the President is able very largely to meet the wishes of the Committee.
Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.
The next Clause, standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Montgomery (Major Davies)—(Advisory Committee to the National Commissioners in Wales)—is out of place.
I have the same Clause on the Paper, and confess I followed my hon. and gallant Friend who has rendered such great service to education in Wales. It was he who put the cart before the horse, or, if that expression be unworthy of the dignity of Parliament, committed a . At any rate, in his absence, I shall not move it.
New Clause—(Rights Of Co-Opted Members Of Education Committees)
In cases where town councils have not delegated any of their powers to education committees under the Education Act, 1902, the co-
opted members of such committees shall have the right to attend the meetings of the local education authority and to take part in any discussions which may arise in connection with the minutes of the education committee in all respects as if they were members of the local education authority.—[ Captain J. Watson.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
I think the object of this Clause will be clear when it is read. As members of the Committee know, at the present time co-opted members of education committees have not the power to attend the meetings of the ultimate education authority. As a rule, in urban districts the ultimate authority is the council, and what often happens under the present regime is that while co-opted members, who, according to the words of the Education Act of 1902, are appointed as "persons of experience in education and acquainted with the needs of the various kinds of schools in the area for which the council act," have no opportunity and no right either of attending the meetings of the education authority, such, for instance, as the town council, or of taking any part in the discussion. I have purposely limited the powers of the Clause. When I first discussed this matter with my right hon. Friend (Mr. Fisher), the suggestion put before me was that not only should co-opted members have the power to attend the discussions and take part in them, but also to vote. I saw at once, and my right hon. Friend quite agreed, that if that were insisted upon it would be likely to cause acute controversy and contention, and, in a Bill of this sort, we are all anxious to avoid that as far as possible. The reason why I have introduced this Clause is that at the present time co-opted members are appointed because of their special knowledge and ability to deal with matters of education; but very often when a matter comes before the education authority, such as the town council, the co-opted members are not present, and because of the lack of the knowledge which they might throw upon the subject and of the information that they might give, very often quite unwittingly, a wrong decision is come to. My proposal is that co-opted members should be at liberty to attend the meetings of the council and to take part in the discussion, but not to vote. I am perfectly willing, if the Clause does not make this perfectly clear, to add the words, "this shall not include the power to vote." At present it is very difficult to get suitable men to take an adequate interest in local affairs, and I think it is a difficulty which is increasing. Many co-opted members of education committees have resigned their positions because their powers are so limited. I do think that if we agree to this Clause it would be an incentive to gentlemen having an interest in education to take a practical interest. It might be said, and perhaps will be said by my right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill, that at this moment the council may invite co-opted members of the education committee to attend meetings of the council, and to take part in the discussion. But I suggest that that is putting co-opted members in a very invidious position. If it is desired that they should attend the meetings of the council and take part in the discussions, why should not the power be given to them by this Bill? I addressed a question on this subject to my right hon. Friend in January, and he replied that the subject raised a general question of great importance, and he was not prepared to express an opinion upon it. He added that, legislation would be required to give effect to the proposal. I suggest that this is a proper opportunity of giving legislative effect to the proposal. I have had an opportunity of discussing the suggestion with many members of the Committee, and I have not found one who has discouraged me or sought in the slightest to discourage me in moving this Clause. Therefore, I trust it will be accepted by the Committee with something approaching general consent.The hon. and gallant Member has stated very clearly and very ably the case for the Amendment. I think there can be no doubt that in many cases it would be very desirable that the town council should have an opportunity of hearing the observations of experienced co-opted members of the local education committee when educational points are being discussed, but, as he has pointed out, it is within the power of the town council at the present time to invite the presence of co-opted members for the purpose of enlightening their educational debate. The hon. and gallant Member, however, wishes to give co-opted members the right to be present when these matters are being discussed. This Amendment is very similar to a Resolution which was passed by the Stockton-on-Tees Education Committee on the 8th January, 1918, the provisions of which have been very widely circulated. It was the subject of a question which the hon. and gallant Member addressed to me on the 16th of January. The Board of Education have not received any indication that the change proposed by the hon. and gallant Member would be agreeable to the persons whose duty it is to conduct educational business, and in the absence of any evidence of any general desire for the introduction of such a Clause, it would, I think, be difficult for the Government to accept the Amendment, in view of the general principle which it has adopted in the conduct of this Bill of not altering the administrative machinery of education in this country.
I am sorry to interrupt my right hon. Friend, but the great distinction between the Resolution which has been circulated and the proposed Clause is this, that the Resolution included voting. I have purposely omitted that from the Clause.
I am aware of that, but I think, in view of the principle which has been adopted all through these discussions, it would be wise not to disturb even in so small a matter the educational machinery of the country. The Amendment does introduce a practice which is foreign to our system of local government, and it is important that our education systems should obtain as fully as possible the confidence of the councils which are ultimately responsible for the conduct of educational affairs and the financing of educational affairs. I think, therefore, that there would be some inconvenience in accepting this Amendment. It might give rise to a great deal of friction, and might expose the Government to the charge of having departed from the principle upon which it has proceeded in the conduct of this Bill.
Organised labour has always been opposed to co-option of any kind. That has been decided at various trade union conferences times without number. When the present Education Act was passed that was one of our troubles. Therefore, even if this was accepted by the Committee, I believe it would meet with very serious objection throughout the country.
Question put, and negatived.
New Clause—Power Of Local Education Authority To Grant Exemptions In Certain Cases)
Notwithstanding anything provided in this or in the Education Acts, it shall be lawful for a local education authority to grant exemption from the obligation to attend school to individual children for such time, and upon such. Conditions, as the authority think fit in any case where after due inquiry the circumstances seem to justify such an exemption.—[ Sir J. D. Rees.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move "That this Clause be read a second time."
As I understand the Bill, children under the age of fourteen cannot be employed at all. The exemption provided by Clause 8 does not meet the case with which I wish to deal. There are many cases in which children might be quite properly employed to a small extent. One case is that of posing for films. Take, for instance, a production in which angels are required. In such a case you must have small children, who will be fitted with wings, to appear in the film. That is a very harmless process—making children even more angelic than they naturally are—to which nobody could take serious objection. It may be argued that this is not an exceedingly important matter. I think that it is. Now that American films cannot be introduced an opportunity offers for increasing and developing here an industry which has a valuable educational quality, and has also been used, as members of the Committee know, for propagandist purposes during the War both in France and here. It is admitted by everybody that it is in the propagandist feature of our war aims that we have most conspicuously failed, and the value of films for propagandist purposes has been most handsomely admitted. Unless this Clause is accepted there will be no possibility of employing such children, and the power of the educational authority to grant exemption will be limited to children between the ages of fourteen and fifteen. At the age of fourteen children are too old for this purpose. Little girls of that age may be very angelic, but my information is that they would be too old, and unless this Clause is accepted the local education authority desiring to release children for this purpose would be unable to do so. Both in regard to children younger than fourteen, and children above the age of fifteen, it is exceedingly desirable that the local education authority should have power to grant exemption from the obligation of individual children to attend schools. This power is not likely to be abused. It is not a class of children but individual children who may be exempted, and such a power does not lend itself to abuse. If my hon. Friend (Mr. Lewis) cannot accept this Clause, could not this power be given for the next seven years, and the precedent established in another part of the Act availed of to meet the washes of those who desire to have this new Clause? In the case which I have mentioned the children, I submit, would be used for an educational purpose. They would appear in the picture which would be used for the purpose of educating their fellow children as well as adults all over the country. The number of our fellow countrymen who attend these exhibitions is vast, and it would be very unfortunate if power was taken away from the local education authorities to exempt these children for this purpose and other purposes, and also to prevent the establishment in this country of so useful an industry as that of film production.With all respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think that this particular Amendment is open to considerable objection. The illustration which he gave was that of a child who is not allowed to convert himself into an angel. But I am advised that children might be used not only as angels but for a vast number of other characters as well, and I am afraid it would be very embarrassing to the local education authorities. If my hon. Friend's new Clause were carried we might have a very large number of applications, and, in the case of some local authorities, this might lead to so considerable an amount of exemption as to amount to that extent, at any rate, to a modification of the law as to school attendance.
I retain the word "individual."
Yes; but at the same time these cases could be taken in vast numbers. I would remind my hon. Friend that the exemption Section of the Elementary Education Act, 1870, has not yet been repealed, and that under the existing law an authority can take into account the circumstances of the case on the question of exemption from attending at school, and if it were to go beyond that it might lead to results which should be deprecated.
Does not Sub-clause (2) of Clause 8 necessarily operate to take away the power to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred?
No; it does not.
It says that "it shall be lawful," and so on, "between the ages of fourteen and fifteen." There is no power of exemption except between those ages, as I understand.
My hon. Friend, in that respect, is in error. There is the special exemption Clause of the Act of 1870.
Question put, and negatived.
New Clause—(Provisions As To Non Attendance Of Children)
In the event of any parent or guardian of any child of school-going age failing to send such child to school, and in the event of any local education authority taking proceedings against such parent or guardian, such parent or guardian shall be entitled to plead any special circumstances, and if the Court is satisfied that such parent or guardian's defence to such proceedings is reasonable, it shall be competent to such Court to excuse the attendance of such child.—[ Sir J. D. Rees.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
A parent or guardian might have an extremely good case for not sending a child to school. Suppose the child were the child of Catholic parents. There might be some religious occasion which, in the eyes of the parents, required absence from school, but of which the local education authority would take little or no account. In such cases the parent or guardian should be entitled to plead special circumstances. It might appear at first sight that this Clause might have been lumped with the last one, but I think that it should not, because this Clause deals solely with cases before a Court. As I understand, if this Clause is not passed, it will not be competent to a parent when any proceedings are taken to plead special circumstances, whereas there may be innumerable circumstances in which the action of the child is perfectly justifiable.I am advised that the hon. Member's Amendment is quite unnecessary, because in the existing state of the law the object which he desires to attain is already attained.
Question put, and negatived.
New Clause—(Special Schools For Physically Defective Children)
The provisions of the Elementary Education (Defective and Epileptic Children) Act, 1914, relating to mentally defective children, shall be extended so as to apply to physically defective and epileptic children, and accordingly that Act shall have effect as if references therein to Mentally defective children included references to physically defective and epileptic children.—[ Major Hills.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
7.0 P.M. There have been two Acts passed making provision for schools for mental defectives, and in the nineteen years which have elapsed since they first came into operation, sixty-seven schools have been started in the country by fifteen education authorities. Forty-one of these schools are in London. Judging from the case of London, there are somewhere about 40,000 mentally defective and epileptic children who are fit subjects for a special school. The definition in the Act of 1899 describes these children as those who "by reason of mental or physical defect are incapable of receiving proper benefit from instruction in ordinary public elementary schools, but are not incapable of receiving benefit from instruction in special schools or classes." Coming under that definition there are to be found throughout the Kingdom about 40,000 or 50,000 of these children, and that it is these to whom my new Clause would apply. The kind of physical defect most common is apparent in the cases of crippled children, children with tuberculosis joints, paralysed children, and epileptics. Inquiry has been made from about ninety-five local education authorities, and the result is that it is found there is a general demand for the passing of this Clause. Mentally deficient children already have special schools which are doing extremely good work, and if it is worth the while of the community to educate mentally deficient children surely it is far more worth its while to educate those who are physically defective! The child itself can benefit far more by the education, and the State benefits because a much larger number of physically defective children are returned to the normal population. The schools which have been started under the voluntary Act are extremely good schools; they work on the lines of returning the child to the normal population, and the results are quite extraordinary. The Committee will be surprised to learn that in some cases as many as 90 per cent. of the children are turned into normal, self-supporting citizens, and even in those cases where the percentage is not so high the number saved represents from 70 to 80 per cent. I base my Clause on two grounds. First of all, the duty of the State to give these children an education which they cannot get now, because either the school is too rough for the child or it is not possessed of the special appliances required for the child. In many cases the children have to be fetched by ambulances, and in all cases they require the services of a nurse. It is the duty of the State, I submit, to give these children a form of education by which they can benefit, and in addition to it being the duty of the State it is to its profit, because unless the children are thus treated they are bound to be a burden on the community. Somebody has to support them, and they either become a charge on the rates or are supported by charity; therefore, it is a good bargain for the State to make these children self-supporting. May I say one word about the cost? The cost of those schools is not small. I do not disguise that it is high. There is the expenditure in providing the school; then there are the special appliances which are wanted; the special attendants for the children, and the cost of getting them to and from the school. I have figures here from different localities; they show that the cost ranges from £8 per head in Bristol to £25 per head in London, and I must add that in the Metropolis it is estimated that on account of the increased cost of all articles the charge will rise to £36 per head next year. The number of children is not large—40,000 or 50,000 out of a school population of 7,000,000 or 8,000,000. It should not be a question of cost. It is a question of giving these children the only sort of education by which they can benefit, and at the same time doing something to make them self-supporting, and, prevent their being a charge either on the rate or on their relations. I submit this Clause with every confidence that my right hon. Friend will accept it.I gather from the general tone of approbation which came from every quarter of the Committee that hon. Members approve of the proposal of this Clause—indeed, it is one that commends itself to the sympathy of every humane man. The hon. and gallant Member has told us that 90 per cent. of these unfortunates are saved for the community, and their lives made worth living; they become useful citizens, and the community therefore receives ample repayment for the expenditure upon them. I, therefore, have much pleasure in accepting the Clause.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
New Clause—(Payments To The Central Welsh Board)
(1) For the yearly sum payable to the Central Welsh Board under the scheme regulating the intermediate and technical education fund of any county, as defined by the Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889, there shall be substituted—
(2) For the purpose of ascertaining the said net income there shall be deducted from the gross income all proper expenses and outgoings in respect of administration and management of the endowment (including charges for interest on and repayment of loans and replacement of capital), and any sums required by the scheme to be treated as capital, and the term "endowment" shall include augmentations acquired by the investment of surplus income whether derived from endowment, or county rate, or from any other source, but not property occupied for the purposes of the scheme.
(3) The power of charging capitation fees for scholars offered for examination conferred on the Central Welsh Board by the scheme of thirteenth day of May, eighteen hundred and ninety-six, regulating the Central Welsh Intermediate Education Fund shall cease.
(4) The provisions of this Section shall have effect and be construed as part of the schemes regulating the Central Welsh Intermediate Education Fund and the intermediate and technical education funds of counties in Wales and Monmouthshire, and may be repealed or altered by future schemes accordingly.—[ Sir H. Roberts.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
The object of the Clause is to secure a uniform rate of contribution from the county governing bodies of Wales towards the expenses of the Central Welsh Board. When the Central Board was set up in the year 1895 certain contributions were fixed which undoubtedly served the purpose so long as the Intermediate Extension Fund continued to pay them. Ample justice was done to all intents and purposes, the levy being uniform. Since that time, however, a change has taken place, particularly in regard to new grants now made payable to secondary schools which are held to lie outside this levy, and as a result of these changes there is undoubtedly an inequality in the incidence of this contribution on the counties and county boroughs of Wales. In one or two cases Amendments have been made, but, generally speaking, the inequality remains and has caused a considerable amount of dissatisfaction and friction in Wales. There is no doubt it is desirable to make an amendment in the basis on which this contribution is to be made in the future. I am glad to be able to inform the Committee that the Central Welsh Board has very carefully considered the terms of the Amendment, and so, too, have all the county and borough governing bodies in Wales, and the great majority of these governing bodies are agreed not only as to the necessity of the change being brought about, but also as to the terms set forth in this Clause. In proposing this alternative basis of contribution, the object is not in any way to increase the amount which is payable for the purposes of a Central Welsh Board, but it is to secure a just and uniform rate of contribution from the various local authorities interested; and, inasmuch as this Clause has behind it so much support, I hope my right hon. Friend will be able to accept it.My hon. Friend has stated fully and fairly the case for the Clause, which we are prepared to accept.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
New Clause—(Provision Of Maintenance Allowances)
It is hereby declared that the powers as to the provision of scholarships conferred by Subsection (2) of Section twenty-three of the Education Act, 1902, and by Section eleven of the Education (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1907, include a power to provide allowances for maintenance.—[ Mr. Haydn Jones.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
This Clause is to provide for the maintenance of poor children who receive scholarships. It is simply a declaratory Clause, and nothing else.I have had the privilege of raising this point a good many times already, and I understand that, as a result of arguments that have been put before the Board, they are prepared to accept the Amendment which also stands in my name, in the same terms, a little lower down on the Paper. I would affirm the necessity of something of this kind being done by referring to a meeting of the Workers' Educational Association, held on Saturday. It is very significant that practically the whole of their discussion proceeded on these lines. Energetic members of the association up and down the country explained that many of the parents in the industrial districts show greater keenness than ever existed before in regard to education It was found that the parents are very anxious about the question of maintenance in the case of children who receive scholarships. In the old days scholarships could only be given on the basis of education, but now we want to extend the basis, though this Clause will not carry us very far even if accepted, and I would venture to warn the President of the Board of Education that he will have to consider the making of further provision, if it is really wished to get effective work, by extending the aid afforded in poorer industrial areas.
This new Clause is declaratory, and makes it clear that the provision made for those who receive scholarships includes maintenance.
I should like to understand how far this declaratory Clause carries us. Am I to understand that the scholarships are in the elementary schools, or are they scholarships in secondary schools, and, in any case, will the Clause apply not only to scholarships provided by the local education authority but to scholarships which are given from private sources? Supposing a private individual provides a scholarship, is it open, under this provision, to ask the local education authority to provide the necessary maintenance to enable the child to enjoy a scholarship of that character?
I take it that would be a matter within the discretion of the local education authority itself. As a matter of fact, this declaratory Clause relates to both elementary and secondary schools.
Question put, and agreed to.
Clause added to the Bill.
New Clause—Teachers' Salaries)
In making arrangements with respect to the appointment of teachers a local education authority shall not make or authorise any differentiation as regards salary on the ground of sex.—[ Mr. Whitehouse.]
Brought up, and read the first time.
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time." The object of this Clause which I move is to provide that women teachers shall receive equal pay for equal work. The first thing I wish to suggest to the Committee is that the proposal to give equal pay for equal work is a just proposal. It is on the ground of its justice that I bring it forward, and I do not think any other justification is required. I doubt whether any hon. Member of the Committee will rise in the course of the discussion of this proposal to suggest that it is unjust in itself to get rid of sex discrimination—that I think probably the objections to the proposal may take a more practical form than that. In saying that this proposal is just in itself, it is right to add that the State should set a good example to industries all over the country. That is why I venture to suggest that it is so important that the Government should adopt this Clause, in order to give a general lead in the reorganisation of our national life, a reorganisation which is already in process, and which must follow in the years of peace. May I remind the Committee that there has been, more especially of late years, a tendency towards the ideal which is aimed at in this Amendment. Throughout the whole world of industry there has been a gradual, in some cases a very gradual, but generally speaking a well-defined tendency, towards the ideal which I here set forth. What does it mean? It is not proposed that the woman who is doing a man's work is to receive the same amount as a man would receive if the amount of work she is able to do is less. The Amendment simply asks that where there is equal work done by a woman, she is to have equal pay given to her.
They want more than that.
The right hon. Gentleman says they want more than that. I am not concerned in any such request, nor have I ever heard of it. All I can say in reply to the interruption, is that this Amendment does not ask for more than that. The Amendment simply asks that where a woman performs equal work with a man, she should not receive less payment because of her sex. That is the proposal, and that is the only proposal which is made in this Amendment. I would also like to remind the Committee that there is not only this general tendency throughout the world of industry towards this ideal, but that to-day we are having much more united attempts for it in the name of women generally than we have ever had before, and I think I will carry the majority of the Committee with me in this, that, now we have enfranchised the great body of women in the country, I very much doubt whether we shall be able to continue this unjust sex discrimination.
It does not exist.
If my hon. Friend is right, and there is no difference existing at the present time, and that the object of the Amendment has already been achieved, then there can be no objection whatever to inserting this Amendment in the Bill, and I expect to receive the support of my hon. Friend who interrupted me in the Division Lobby. But I want to refer to the serious and united evidence which has come from the organised representatives of women's labour.
They are not united.
The hon. Gentleman will have his opportunity of speaking presently. If I wanted any evidence in support of the statement I have just made, I would venture to call the President of the Board of Education himself as a witness, because I am quite sure that his post bag, during the last month, must have been filled with letters from the organised representatives of women's labour, making the demand which is contained in the Amendment I am now moving. The only economic argument which I have ever heard against the proposal I now make is that women should be paid less because they have fewer responsibilities than men. I do not think that is a sound argument. If we are to act upon that argument we ought to pay less to unmarried men and more to married men. To consider the individual responsibilities of every person is obviously impossible. Therefore, on the ground of this demand, the general tendency of the industrial world, and the need for the Government to set a good example to the rest of the country, I submit this Clause.
I support the Clause of my hon. Friend, which affirms the principle that women should receive equal pay for equal work. This Clause is not revolutionary at all. It simply lays down the principle that I have stated—equal pay for equal work, whether it applies to a man or to a woman. If the employer is ready to claim a fair day's work, then I think the employed has the right to be paid a fair day's wage, whether man or woman. And surely there can be no exception so far as women teachers are concerned, and no exception so far as the State is concerned. I have heard it stated that women are paid now just at the same rate as men. If that be so, there can be no objection, I take it, to adding the Clause to the Bill. If, on the other hand, it is not so, then I think the time has arrived when the Clause should be added, and the position made perfectly clear. I have heard it said by some people that women cannot do the same amount of good educational work as men in our schools, and that, therefore, men should receive higher salaries than the women. That seems to me to be a poor argument. One can admit that the headmaster of a school should, perhaps, be in a better position than the headmistress. Still, there are cases in which probably women would better discharge educational work than men. The fact that some women teachers are in charge of high schools shows distinctly that women are quite capable of carrying out the most difficult class of work done by school teachers. I will not delay the Committee by going over the whole ground so well covered by the hon. Gentleman who has moved this Clause, but will simply say that, as the President of the Board of Education has been so obliging this afternoon in accepting so many Clauses, perhaps he will also add this one to the Bill. He has accepted proposals safeguarding the interests of children, and I would now ask him to accept this proposal to safeguard the interests of women.
I am afraid that I cannot see my way to accept this Amendment, and for a reason which I am sure will be appreciated by the hon. Member for North Lanarkshire, who, in spite of the fact that he represents a Scottish constituency, has taken a substantial part in this Debate and shown a very extensive knowledge of our system of educational administration in this country. Whatever may be said for or against the principle for which he contends, and upon that I say nothing, the broad fact remains that the teachers in this country are not the employés of the Government, but of the local education authorities, and for that reason, if for no other, it would be improper for the Government to adopt any such plan as the hon. Member suggests. I think that in reality the object of the hon. Member was to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that a great number of women teachers are inadequately paid, to the fact that it is desirable that their remuneration should be increased, and to the fact that the women teachers in this country are a very devoted body of public servants, whose work ought to be adequately remunerated, but although I agree with all these propositions, I cannot accept the Amendment.
I am sure the reply of the right hon. Gentleman will be received throughout the country with very great dissatisfaction on the part of the women. I suppose there is no organised body of women in the country which will not be dissatisfied.
No, no!
That is my opinion, at any rate. The right hon. Gentleman has given one or two reasons which I do not quite appreciate. I presume his point is that the central authority ought not to fix the salaries of the employés of the local authorities, but in this case the local authorities derive a very large proportion of their total income from the central authority, and I think the right hon. Gentleman ought to have a say both in the conditions under which the employés are employed and the remuneration which they receive. Many women teachers are badly underpaid by many local authorities, and some power ought to be taken by the central authority to squeeze up the backward authorities and compel them to pay a living wage. But that is not the grievance of the women. Their grievance is that they, doing identical work, are paid less money for the same work than men. It is the differentiation against them on the ground of their sex which rouses their anger. It is not their underpayment so much as their unequal payment which they resent, and at a time like this, when equality is entering more and more into the relations between the sexes, I had hoped the right hon. Gentleman would have accepted this Clause and removed a real grievance, which has not only been felt for years past but is felt now, and is likely to be felt a great deal more in the near future. The refusal of this Amendment is almost sure to lead to considerable agitation as well as dissatisfaction, and as my name was attached to the Amendment I felt obliged to make this protest.
I rather wondered as I listened to the eloquence of the three hon. Gentleman who have addressed the House in favour of this Clause whether they have accurately gauged or anticipated the real desires of the organised women workers in the teaching profession. I have very grave doubts on this point, and I venture to suggest that this is not in any case an opportune moment to decide on behalf of the other sex what their wishes are. We are going to have a very large opportunity in the early future of discovering what the opinion of women in general and of various aggregations of women is upon matters of public importance such as this, and I have reason to think that the hon. Gentleman who just sat down is entirely wrong in supposing that the women teachers generally throughout the country desire this so-called reform. Some of us have had some experience quite recently in settling, or attempting to settle, an entirely new scale of salaries for male and for women teachers respectively in our respective counties, and I say at once that I view with regret that in these revised scales the salaries suggested for women are not higher in many cases, at any rate in the South and West of England, than they are. They are going to be squeezed up far more as the result of the organised opinion of the profession itself, brought to bear upon the local education authorities, than they are likely to be, at any rate with any measure of assent on the part of the teaching profession, by any action which we may take in this House. I have reason to think that if we pass this Clause many perfectly admirable women teachers would begin to fear that the profession was no longer a place for them. At any rate, when all is said and done, what the hon. Gentleman is asking us to do is to stereotype the price of two different commodities. Labour is a commodity, and has its price like any other commodity, and nothing can be more dangerous than to attempt in an Act of Parliament to force a Government Department to say that two commodities are of equal value whether in fact they are so or not.
Is teaching by women a different commodity to teaching by men?
Quite conceivably it may be, and in some cases undoubtedly it is. If the hon. Gentleman is not careful he will find that women of exceptional capacity will under this Clause be paid less than in fact they are entitled to receive as the result of the qualifications which they possess, and I think it would be trenching on very dangerous ground indeed if we in these days, under pressure of Government control in every direction and the fixation by the Government of wages in various departments of industry, were to stereotype in an Act of Parliament the equalisation of price of what is, after all, an economic commodity.
May I remind the hon. Member of the legislation connected with agriculture within the past few months, when there was no sex discrimination in fixing the minimum rate of payment for agricultural work?
Nothing surprises me more than the interruption of the hon. Member. I happen to know something about agricultural wages as fixed under the Corn Production Act, and I am quite sure of this, that whatever may be the minima that are suggested in various counties, the agricultural wages as paid to women will not be, at any rate for many years to come, the same wages as are paid to men. What I really want to impress upon the Committee is that, in attempting to fix the same value for women's and for men's labour in the teaching profession, you are in fact making the competition in the case of women much more severe than it is to-day, and for a class of women whose intellectual attainments may not be very high but who are particularly valuable in looking after the younger children in our schools. That is a class which will be seriously prejudiced if this Clause is passed. I should like to know, before I assent to any such suggestion as this, what are the views of the National Union of Teachers. I see in this House at least two present or past representatives of the National Union of Teachers, and if they sit still and do not lend their support to this proposal I do not feel justified in asking the Committee to accept what the organisation of teachers themselves, through their accredited representatives, are not prepared to ask the House to adopt.
I ventured to challenge the hon. Gentleman who moved the Clause when he was speaking as to the facts. He had no right to say that he represented the united voice of anybody on this question.
I did not say anything of the kind.
The hon. Member used the term "united voice," and it was at that point that I intervened. I venture to say that women's organisations, taken either collectively or individually, are not united on this question, and I oppose the Amendment, because I am certain it would not carry out the objects of any of us who want fair treatment for women. I am willing that women should be paid higher wages than men even, but this Resolution will not provide for that. Take the ordinary school, where there may be twelve teachers, of whom six are well paid and six poorly paid. Under this Clause six women could get the poorly-paid jobs and six men the other jobs. The Clause refers to differentiation as regards salary, but the hon. Member is quite agreeable that there should be differentiation as regards employment or posts. Are the Movers of this Clause prepared that differentiation shall be made on other grounds than the selection of posts? The controversy is most acute with regard to head teachers, and part of the women's case is that if they demand always the same salary as the men they would not get any of the head posts. That is the view of a great many women, and when the appeal is made that this is part of some general movement throughout the country I think it is most absurd. The other day, when the Juries Bill was before the House and I suggested that women should sit on juries as well as men, where were the hon. Members? I want to ask, if there is this zeal that on every occasion women ought to be treated exactly the same as men, why it was not shown on that occasion?
The hon. Member seems to forget that sometimes other duties call hon. Members away to other work.
I quite agree, but none of those hon. Gentlemen who have moved this Clause were here. The hon. Member who introduced this argument said he wanted the general trend of public opinion to be brought into this Bill, but I venture to say he ought not to bring it before the Committee with misleading statements. I am more moved to say that because there was a Committee which dealt with this very thing, and which had four women upon it, and was presided over by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities (Sir H. Craik). They presented a unanimous Report exactly opposite to this Clause. So far as I understand, there was no Minority Report.
No.
Whenever I have read the discussions of teachers I have always been puzzled to know what views they would take, and when I have come to examine them, what I have been informed is this, that the men teachers as a rule vote in favour of equality of salary, but the women are against it. I do not know whether that is so, but that is what I am told by women themselves. That is a very curious thing. I should have thought it was far better to have an enlightened policy on the part of the local authorities. If women are fit for higher posts, they should have them; but when you come to make hard and fast rules and make no provision for the—
The hon. Gentleman has rather misinterpreted our position. This Clause is not to make any hard and fast rule. It is only against the education authority having one scale for men and another scale for women for the same work.
It only deals with differentiation as to salary?
Yes; on the ground of sex.
I have pointed out that there is no protection whatever. You do not insist that the same wages should be paid to every teacher. You cannot. You do not pay the same for teaching Latin as for teaching the alphabet, and therefore you must have different scales. No one would say the distinction was as to sex, but certain education authorities do now give all the higher paid posts to the men and the lower paid posts to the women, and we can get out of that, I suppose, by education, and by demanding that there shall be fairer treatment. But this Clause does not put it right, and it is a false idea to imagine that by passing a few words of this description we shall put the position right.
With regard to the Committee over which I had the honour to preside, there were on that Committee three ladies very eminently qualified to sit on it. We took the question most carefully into consideration, with the single desire on the part, I am certain, of every member of that Committee, to come to a fair and reasonable settlement. Our view was that if we laid down a rule of this sort it would lead to minimum salaries, and that the result, in a very large number of cases, would be to drive women out of the positions they at present held. That view may have been right or wrong, but I can only say that all those women joined in the unanimous Report of that Committee, which recommended a different scale of salaries generally. We made one exception, and it is a very important one. We laid down no rule, but merely made a recommendation that in the higher posts of the profession, for which, by special qualifications they had shown they were fitted, then those higher posts should be paid at a certain fixed scale of salaries, and that those salaries should be assigned whether they were men or women. We thought that it was a fair and equitable adjustment of the case. But to have laid down a general rule of this sort applicable to every post running through the whole profession, we felt—and our lady colleagues joined in that feeling—that the result of such action would be fatal to the strong position which women at present occupied in the profession.
Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 20; Noes, 90.
Division No. 59.]
| AYES.
| [7.55 p.m.
|
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. William | Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Durham) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Arnold, Sydney | Hudson, Walter | Richardson, Arthur (Rotherham) |
| Burn, Col. C. R. (Torquay) | Jacobson, Thomas Owen | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Buxton, Noel | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Rushcliffe) | Sutton, John E. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eltion) | Jowett, Frederick William | |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-In-Furness) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
|
| Finney, Samuel | Martin, Joseph | Mr. Whitehouse and Mr. Chancellor. |
| Gilbert, James Daniel | Newman, Sir Robert (Exeter) |
NOES.
| ||
| Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte | Flannery, Sir J. Fortescus | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Agnew, Sir George | Fletcher, John S. | Parkes, Sir Edward |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Forster, Rt. Hon. Henry William | Pease, Rt. Hon. H. P. (Darlington) |
| Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick | Foster Philip Staveley | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Barlow, Sir Montague (Salford, S.) | Gibbs, Col. George Abraham | Pollock, Sir Ernest Murray |
| Bathurst, Capt. Sir C. (Wilts) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. John | Pratt, John W. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Greig, Colonel James William | Pryce-Jones, Col. Sir E. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Griffith, Rt. Hon. Sir Ellis Jones | Randles, Sir John |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith- | Hanson, Charles Augustin | Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arton) |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Richardson, A. (Gravesend) |
| Brookes, Warwick | Harmood-Banner, Sir J. S. | Roberts, Sir Herbert (Denbighs.) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Robinson, Sidney |
| Carew. Charles R. S. (Tiverton) | Hibbert, Sir Henry | Rutherford, Sir W. Watson (W. Derby) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Higham, John Sharp | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Chcyne, Sir William W. | Hills, John Waller (Durham) | Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur |
| Clough, William | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward F. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Collins, Sir William (Derby) | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Cowan, Sir William Henry | Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Craig, Ernest (Crewe) | Jones, Wm. Kennedy (Hornsey) | Stoker, R. B. |
| Craig, Col. Sir James (Down, E.) | Jones, Wm. S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, W.) |
| Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Swift, Rigby |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) | Layland-Barratt, Sir F. | Tickler, Thomas George |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Walker, Col. W. H. |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Wardle, George J. |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Loyd, Archie Kirkman | Watt, Henry A. |
| Duncan, Sir J. Hastings (Otley) | M'Kean, John | Williams, Aneurin (Durham) |
| Du Pre, Maj. W. B. | Maden, Sir John Henry | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Fell, Sir Arthur | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. H. A. L. (Hallam) | Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
|
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. William H. (Fulham) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Lord Edmund Talbot and Mr. A. Ward. |
The next two Clauses on the Paper (Amendment of Education (Choice of Employment) Act, 1910) and (Provision of Maintenance Allowances)—have already been dealt with. The last Clause on the Paper—
| SECOND SCHEDULE.—ENACTMENTS REPEALED. | ||||
| Session and Chapter. | Short Title. | Extent of Repeal. | ||
| 3 Edw. 7, c. 24 | … | The Education (London) Act, 1903 | … | In the First Schedule, paragraph (2). |
I beg to move, in the third column, to leave out the words "paragraph (2)," and to insert instead thereof the words "paragraphs (2) and (7)."
Is this a drafting Amendment?
Merely drafting.
Amendment agreed to.
Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Question is, "That I report the Bill, with Amendments, to the House."
(Choice of Continuation Schools in Certain Cases)—should have come on on Clause 10.
First Schedule [ Extension of Enactments] agreed to.
On a point of Order, Mr. Whitley. I should like to ask one question of the President.
I think the hon. Member's opportunity for asking questions has passed.
I refer to the last Amendment but one, standing in the names of four Members. I understand the President gave some sort of assurance in regard to this matter.
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will address me?
I want to put the point to you, Sir, whether that Amendment has gone absolutely, and as to what is the position? I understand there was some agreement arrived at in regard to it.
The hon. Gentleman refers to his own Amendment which he was not going to move?
No; to that standing in the names of Mr. Boland, Sir Mark Sykes, Mr. Scanlan, and Mr. O'Grady, entitled Choice of Continuation School in Certain Cases.
The one of which I have just spoken?
Yes.
I have said that it should have been an Amendment on Clause 10. It can come up on the Report stage.
I beg your pardon.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 57.]
Flax Companies (Financial Assistance) Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill now be read a second time."
Owing to the enormous demand for flax for the War Office, Admiralty, and aeroplane requirements, and the loss of the Russian and Belgian crops, which, of course, are no longer available as the area from which we have obtained our supplies, it has become essential to make a very large development of flax production within the Empire. Part of the effort we are making for earlier production is in Ireland. Arrangements have been made for a very considerable extension of flax-growing there. The banks are willing to advance the necessary money under guarantee in part by the linen industry and in part by the War Office with the consent of the Treasury. Some difficulty has arisen owing to the fact that the companies who are willing to undertake the liability strictly have no power to do so under the terms of their articles of association or instruments of incorporation. The object of this Bill is to give them the power which they do not at present possess. They could, of course, go to the Courts in the ordinary way and get an amendment of their articles of association, but it was thought fair that as we have done in the case of the munition companies so we should do in the case of these companies—that is to say, give them power by Statute without imposing upon them the obligation to go to the Courts. This Bill imposes no obligation upon anybody, but enables those willing to do so to come to the assistance of the country in the provision of a very vital commodity. That is the object of the Bill, and I hope the House will give it a Second Reading.
Naturally we understand there are very important objects of national importance which this Bill seeks to carry out, but I should rather like to hear what guarantee the War Office is to give. I refer to the estimated amount. If it cannot be given now, perhaps it can at a later time. I am dependent upon the explanation which has been given by the hon. Gentleman of the Bill, as I have studied it but briefly; but it does seem to me that the Bill is drafted in singularly wide terms. It suggests that practically any company, whatever its shareholders may say, may depart from its articles of association and do a number of things which the shareholders have not sanctioned. That may be all right in the case of the individual companies to which reference has been made, but, as I say, the Bill is drafted in very wide terms, and it seems to me that it may require some little study and some closer drafting with a view to preventing difficulties which conceivably may arise.
I have studied the Bill somewhat, and I certainly think there should be a safeguard in it. It not only enables a company to go behind its prospectus, but also outside its memorandum. There are many people who have invested in a company and who rely upon its memorandum to limit it, say, to banking, or insurance, or cotton, or coal, as the case may be, and they would not have the least idea that the directors by a resolution at a meeting could embark to any extent they like upon an enterprise of the sort referred to. I should like to make the suggestion, which I hope the Government will not consider unreasonable, that those concerned should have to apply to some Government Department before they can act—say, to the Board of Trade. As a matter of fact, most companies can, by means of their board, exercise all the powers of the company, but here you are going to give them some reason to break all their conditions and all their bonds in order to invest in flax. There should he some form or some check; they should have the consent of the Board of Trade or the Home Office; they should have to take some definite act, however moderate, whereby some independent person casts his eye over the proposed transaction, and such, I think, would avoid any possible trouble, in view of this unlimited power.
I also would like to press the right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary to give us some idea as to the extent of the guarantee for which, of course, this House is primarily responsible. I should also like to ask him whether this scheme contemplates growing flax alone in Ireland, which, of course, possesses a climate and certain facilities in the way of waterways which are peculiarly suitable both for the growing and milling of flax, or whether it is proposed to have considerable areas of flax growing in England and Wales? In connection with this question I should also like to ask whether it is proposed that a portion, at any rate, of this flax is to be grown with a view to the provision of linseed, which is one of the scarcest commodities in this country? We require a very large area for carrying our stocks through the winter months. I venture to hope that the right hon. Gentleman has that in mind, because no doubt he is aware there is no matter upon which the farming community is to-day more anxious than as to whether concentrated foods will be available for carrying the cattle and the sheep through the winter months, and in the succeeding years. If agriculturists have the assurance that there will be a considerable increase of home-grown linseed, and therefore of home manufacture of linseed cake, it will make the Bill popular amongst the agricultural community.
The guarantee for the scheme which is in contemplation is £600,000 guaranteed by the War Office, and £200,000 guaranteed by the linen industry. I think we may hope that no portion of the guarantee will be called up, but it is contingent upon the success or the failure of the crop. It is essential that every effort should be made to promote this system of flax-growing. In regard to the observations made by the hon. Member for Pontefract and the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. C. Roberts), there is perhaps some desirability that the Bill should not be too widely drawn. I shall certainly consider that point between now and the Committee stage, and, if I can meet them, I shall be very glad to do so.
Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us in what way that guarantee will be called upon? Will it take the form of taking shares in the undertaking, or in certain contingencies, if loss arises, will the country be called upon to meet that loss?
The actual money will be advanced by the banks under guarantee, as to part of it, on the liability of the War Office, and as to the other part on the liability of the linen industry. In regard to the point made by my hon. Friend behind me (Sir C. Bathurst), certainly I hope that the supply of linseed will be enlarged. All of us personally are concerned, and, as an agriculturist, I am just as much concerned as my hon. and gallant Friend in regard to this matter. The object we have in view is the production of flax, largely for the purpose of aeroplane manufacture, and largely for those canvas requirements of the War Office.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Monday next.—[ Mr. Parker.]
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 13th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
I suppose we may now take it definitely from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury that the House will not sit on Friday?
Yes.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Fourteen minutes after Eight o'clock.