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Commons Chamber

Volume 108: debated on Wednesday 10 July 1918

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House Of Commons

Wednesday, 10th July, 1918.

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

County of London Electric Supply Bill [ Lords],

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Lancaster Corporation Bill,

As amended, considered.

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

King's Consent signified. Bill read the third time, and passed.

Morecambe Corporation Bill [ Lords],

As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

Scarisbrick Estate Bill [ Lords] (by Order),

Read a second time, and committed.

Local Government Provisional Order (No. 6) Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the third time To-morrow.

Midwives (Scotland) Act, 1915

Copy presented of Report on the Work of the Central Midwives Board for Scotland for the year 1917–18 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Board Of Education

Copy presented of Regulations for Secondary Schools in Wales [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

Civil Services (Supplementary Estimate, 1918–19)

Estimate presented of further Sum required to be voted for the service of the year ending 31st March, 1919 [by Command]; referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed, [No. 85.]

Owner Of Cheshunt Park (Annuity)

Return presented relative thereto-[ordered 9th July; Mr. Baldwin]; to lie upon the Table.

National Health Insurance Commission

Joint Committee Regulations

Copy presented of Regulations, dated 28th June, 1918, made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee, the Insrance Commissioners, the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, the Irish Insurance Commissioners, and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, entitled the National Health Insurance (Navy, Army, and Air Force) Consolidated Regulations, 1918 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Army (Regimental Debts)

Copy presented of Royal Warrant. Regulations under the Regimental Debts Act, 1893, Amendments [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers To Questions

War

India

Mr And Mrs Henry Hotchner

1.

asked the Secretary of State for India who are the Mr. and Mrs. Henry Hotchner who are described in the letter addressed by Sir Subramaniya Aiyer, K.C.I.E., to President Wilson as having graciously consented to leave their home in India in order to convey the letter to President Wilson personally in Washington; what position Mr. and Mrs. Hotchner occupied in India; of what nationality they are by birth; whether they travelled from India to America on a British passport; whether they are now engaged on propaganda work on behalf of the Home Rule for India League in America or elsewhere; and whether they are to be permitted to return to India?

I understand that Mr. and Mrs. Henry Hotchner are United States citizens by birth, who lived for some time at Adyar, in Madras, and co-operated in Mrs. Besant's theosophical work. They appear to be giving theosophical lectures in the United States. Mrs. Hotchner is said to be at the head of the American section of the Temple of the Rosy Cross or the brotherhood of the Mystic Star. Presumably they travelled last year with a United States passport visé by the authorities in India. The question of allowing their return to India would be considered by the Indian Government, if and when they applied for a passport visa.

Raw Hide Trade

2.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that before the War the East India export trade in raw hides was largely in the hands of and controlled by the Calcutta Hide Trade Association, which worked with a Hamburg association, and by its methods virtually maintained a monopoly; if he will say whether of the nine firms composing the association four were closed tinder the Enemy Traders Order, and in two instances alien employés of these firms started similar businesses and are now carrying them on; whether the existing export trade in cow hides, buffalo hides, goat and sheep skins, so far as it is not controlled by the British Government, is still in the hands of these pre-war firms; and if he will say what steps he intends to take in order to prevent the Calcutta Hide Trade Association holding a monopoly and thus diverting the post-war hide and skin trade from British merchants and tanners?

The statement in the first part of the question is, I believe, substantially correct. The Calcutta Hide and Skin Shippers' Association consisted of seven firms, of which five have been wound up under the Enemy Trading Act, while from the remaining two enemy interests have been completely eliminated. I have ascertained from the Government of India that there three alien employés (two Swiss and one Italian) of liquidated firms have started business.

The export trade in raw hides is now controlled by the Government of India who, on behalf of His Majesty's and the Italian Governments, purchase the exportable surplus of certain classes. As purchasing agents five British or Indian firms are employed, but other firms, including the two reconstructed firms and the three new alien firms referred to, are permitted to participate in the export trade of hides not required by Government. They do not, however, in any sense enjoy a monopoly of such trade. As regards the last part of the question, the Government of India have the future regulation of this trade under consideration. The measures already adopted have done much to divert this trade to British and Indian merchants, and there is every reason to think that the enemy control of this important trade has been permanently eliminated.

Is the right hon. Gentleman sure that Mr. Howieson, late Ernsthausen, is not now occupied in getting back a considerable portion of this trade into German hands from which this arrangement was designed to remove it? Will he very kindly inquire into that aspect of the question?

I cannot carry in my mind the details of the action of any individual, but I know that the Government of India are determined that any such efforts as the hon. Gentleman suggests shall not be successful.

Am I to understand that the two employés who set up a business for themselves in association with these other firms that have been suppressed under the Order in relation to enemy trading are of neutral nationality and in no way belonging to German nationality?

Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire whether Howieson (Ernsthausen), has not been exceedingly active and has been in communication with the commercial member of the Government of India?

Medical Service

3.

asked the Secretary of State for India if he has considered the representation submitted by officers of the Indian Medical Service; and whether he can make any statement on the subject?

Through the courtesy of my hon. and gallant Friend, I have seen the paper to which he refers and I have also received numerous other representations regarding the position of officers in the Indian Medical Service. The other day I received a deputation from the British Medical Association on the same subject.

I recognise the importance to the Government and the people of India of an efficient and contented medical service; and I have undertaken to give the questions which have been raised in this connection careful and prompt consideration. I am in communication with the Government of India on the subject.

Army Officers (Pay)

4.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can now state the result of his reference to the Government of India on the subject of the extension of children's allowances to officers of the Indian Army?

I much regret that I am not yet in a position to give this information to my hon. Friend. I have already asked the Government of India some time ago to expedite their reply. I will communicate with them again.

Excess Profits

5.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the arrangements with regard to Income Tax assessment in India will be revised, so as to remove any hindrance to the imposition of an Excess Profits Tax in India, where large profits are being realised as a consequence of the War?

I will bring my right hon. Friend's suggestion to the notice of the Government of India.

Would it not be possible for this grave injustice, which frees from Excess Profits Tax people who are making a percentage of more than one hundred, to be dealt with promptly? It has been under the notice of the Government of India too long.

I am quite certain my right hon. Friend will realise that the right people to whom to make suggestions with regard to taxation are the Government of India. If he wishes to bring to their notice any facts, I will gladly communicate to them his suggestions.

Is it not the case that this particular tax has been firmly opposed by one person in the Government of India, the Financial Member of the Council?

Publicity Boards

6.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether a publicity bureau has been established for the purpose of publishing reliable information and of counteracting enemy activities regarding the War among the peoples of India?

Yes, Sir; boards have been formed in each Province, with a central bureau at Simla, and the new organisation is being kept in close touch with the Ministry of Information here.

Recruiting

7.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House any information regarding the progress of recruiting in India and the measures taken to increase the man-power available for the War; and will he state whether recruits are still divided into combatant and non-combatant classes?

I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply of 5th June. Recruiting in India continues to be most satisfactory. During the past year, in addition to the maintenance of Indian forces serving in the field at full strength, a considerable number of new units were raised, and some of these are already on service.

Present arrangements contemplate the recruitment of double the number enlisted last year. The transport, personnel, and several other ancillary services are now under combatant conditions. In addition, non-combatants are recruited for service in Labour Corps.

Is recruiting also going on in the territories of the native princes of India?

Tea Tax (Bengal)

8.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether it is the intention of the Government of Bengal to levy an Income Tax upon tea, notwithstanding the fact that this product already pays not only land revenue and Export Duty but also Import Duty in the United Kingdom; and is he aware that the Gov eminent of Bengal, when imposing the Export Duty in 1916–17, justified the tax on the ground that tea, in spite of its industrial character, had for thirty years been exempted from Income Tax?

I have no official information, but I gather from statements in the Press that the liability of Indian tea companies to be assessed to Income Tax in respect of their profits has been raised, and that the companies have addressed representations to the proper authority in India. I have no doubt that the points raised by my hon. Friend will be carefully considered.

German Plots

9.

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the trial of the German-Indian conspirators, concluded in May in San Francisco, clearly established the fact that the German Consulate at that city instigated, aided, and abetted an Indian revolutionary movement in the United States and in many other parts of the world for the overthrow of the Government of India and the obstruction of Great Britain in the conduct of the War, and that proof was forthcoming at the trial of the payment of no less than £400,000 to one Bengali conspirator; and whether any statement will be made regarding the German plots in India on any occasion during the present Session?

The statement of my hon. Friend is substantially accurate, though I cannot vouch for the exact amount of the large sums of money undoubtedly paid by the German authorities in the hope of fomenting sedition in India.

I will consider the question of making a statement if the House desires, but there are obvious difficulties in giving a comprehensive account of the matter.

Reforms Proposed

(by Private Notice) asked the Leader of the House whether an opportunity will be given to discuss the proposals in connection with Indian reforms before the House adjourns in August?

I am, of course, always ready to meet the wishes of the House if they are communicated through the usual channels. I think, however, that, in view of the length and importance of the Report, the discussion should not take place too soon.

Does not the Leader of the House think that perhaps, in the course of three weeks, the House will have this Report more clearly in its mind than if it postponed its consideration till October, when very likely it will not? [HON. MEMBERS: "NO!"] May I attempt to show—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] May I ask whether the Leader of the House thinks it desirable to postpone both the discussion on the Indian Budget this year and all consideration of this Report?

Of course, whether or not there is time to study it depends on what hon. Members have to do. It certainly will require a great deal of study before it is possible to form an opinion about it. I express no statement as to the date. I only express the view that we ought certainly to have some reasonable time.

Will the postponing of the discussion of this subject by the House in any way interfere with the discussion of the subject by the Cabinet, or will the discussion of it go on in the Cabinet without regard to that?

The Cabinet will certainly consider it as they have opportunity, but I think it was stated when the Report was issued that one reason why we issued it at once was that we had not the time to give it the necsesary consideration, and I am certain we shall not have that time before the end of the Session.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that every day discussion of this reform is postponed makes the affairs of India more difficult and makes the loyal co-operation of India with this country more difficult?

National Shipyards

10.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state what steps he proposes to take, in view of the decision to discontinue the employment of military or German prisoners of war to provide suitable accommodation for the shipyard workers at the national shipyards?

The employment of civilian labour for ship construction when the yards have been completed will necessitate the provision of housing accommodation, over and above that already being proceeded, with, to meet the needs of married men; and with this object in view a scheme has been drawn up and plans prepared by the Department of the Controller-General of Merchant Shipbuilding. The matter is being pushed forward with the utmost possible expedition.

13.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if it has been definitely decided to abandon the proposal to use military labour in the national shipyards; if so, what arrangements are being made to supply labour for these yards; and what percentage of it will be skilled?

In so far as the actual construction of ships is concerned, the answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative.

After a careful review of the situation and on the advice of the Controller-General of Merchant Shipbuilding, it is proposed to undertake ship construction by civilian labour. Such of the Royal Engineers, at present engaged on the completion of the yards, as may be suitably qualified, will, when this work is done, be transferred to Class "W" Reserve and be employed on ship construction under civilian management and will be paid civilian rates of pay.

As has been repeatedly stated in this House, the design of the ships to be constructed in the national yards has been simplified to the greatest possible extent so as to utilise the least possible amount of skilled labour. I cannot exactly state what percentage of skilled labour will be required for the assembling of these fabricated ships, but it will be a very small one. As I have previously stated, there is no intention of calling upon the private shipyards for any skilled labour; though we may, by agreement, obtain from them a certain number of foremen and leading hands.

Is it a fact that more than six months ago the Department was advised that it would be impossible and impracticable to employ military labour in these yards, and how does he propose to get skilled labour from the yards without coming to some arrangement that will deprive them of the skilled labour which is necessary for them to carry on their work at present?

I cannot recall the advice which was said to be given six months ago, but as regards the latter part of the question I would remind the hon. Gentleman that we have asked for Vote 8 to be put down at the earliest possible moment, and the Leader of the House may be able to announce to-day or to-morrow when the whole matter may be fully discussed.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is not at the present time a great shortage of labour in the existing shipyards?

I should presently say there is a shortage of one particular trade, but I should like to have notice before I make a statement as regards the whole field.

Has anything been done in regard to the housing conditions in connection with these yards? Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of the complaints which have been made up to the present time about the conditions of housing at one of these yards?

14.

asked how many of the seventy new berths for merchant ships authorised as extensions of existing private shipyards have now been completed; whether arrangements have been made to keep them fully occupied and adequately supplied with labour; and whether it is still intended to fully utilise private yards and their extensions adequately supplied with the necessary labour before men and material are diverted to the national shipyards?

The number of new slips sanctioned for the construction of merchant ships in private yards is eighty-seven and not seventy, as stated by my hon. Friend, and of this number fourteen have already been completed.

As far as I am aware, these new berths are fully supplied with both material and labour, except in a few cases where there is a shortage of a particular shipyard trade in that district, and it is expected that this state of affairs will continue.

With regard to the last part of the question, I may remind my hon. Friend of the pledge given in the House by the First Lord on 1st November last year, when he stated that we would not use the national yards until such time as existing yards were working to the utmost of their economic capacity. This pledge will be adhered to.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when it is intended to complete the seventy-three slips which have already been sanctioned but which have not been completed, and where the labour is to be obtained for these seventy-three new slips if labour is diverted to the national shipyard before the others are completed?

I do not think labour will be diverted to the national shipyards; and with regard to the seventy-three slips of the eighty-seven, I should be glad if my hon. Friend will go through the statements of progress which can be seen week by week.

Are we to understand from the right hon. Gentleman's answer that all work has now been stopped in the national shipyards?

Certainly not. Lord Pirrie, the Controller-General of merchant shipbuilding, issued a statement to the Press on the 27th June, in the course of which he said, "I am assuming personal responsibility for running the national shipyards, and believe they will form a great asset to the nation and the means of substantially increasing the output of merchant ships."

No; the yards themselves are not completed. The slips are not completed, and no keel has been laid.

Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate when the prediction which he has quoted is likely to be fulfilled?

I do not know to what prediction the hon. Gentleman refers. I quoted a statement of Lord Pirrie.

There is a prediction in which he says that these shipyards are going to be a great national asset in the production of ships.

Lord Pirrie is the highest authority and a great expert upon these matters, and he has stated deliberately that, so far from their being shut up, they will be, in his opinion, a great asset to the nation, and will mean a substantial increase in the output of merchant ships. I have quoted that as being relevant.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state the date on which that prediction is likely to be fulfilled—that is the only relevance the quotation can have?

15.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if his attention has been called to a statement recently issued by the Controller-General of Merchant Shipbuilding, to the effect that no ships were to be built at the national shipyards until these yards had been completed; whether this is intended to include the completion of housing accommodation; if so, will he say what is the building scheme; who is in charge of it; and how long will it take to complete it?

The statement to which my hon. Friend refers was issued with the full knowledge and concurrence of the Admiralty. A scheme for providing accommodation especially for married men has, as I have just said, been prepared. It will be carried out locally by General Collard under the general direction of Lord Pirrie. I am not at the moment in a position to state any date at which it is contemplated the accommodation will be complete.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what it will cost for this housing scheme?

The original cost for the hutments for single men is in the Estimates, but for the married men there will be an additional cost. That is part of the plan which is being put forward with all expedition.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House any information as to the number of married men for whom housing accommodation is to be supplied, and, approximately, the cost of this very extensive scheme, and if the House is to have an opportunity of discussing a further considerable addition of money to that already spent upon this scheme before any further work is proceeded with?

Undoubtedly over and above the £3,887,000, whch includes hutments for single men, there will be additional expenditure in respect of the married men. I will do my best to get from Lord Pirrie exactly what he expects the cost will be, and I think it would be possible to make a statement in regard to that on Vote 8 on the early date on which we expect to take that Vote.

And before the work is started upon these buildings the House will have an opportunity of considering the vast expenditure of money before it is embarked upon?

I agree with the propriety of placing the matter fully before the House, but I do not think it will be a vast expenditure.

Before a great number of new buildings are put up, will the existing housing accommodation be made watertight, healthy, and possible for people to live in in decency?

Motion For Adjournment

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, "the intention of the Admiralty, without the consent of the House, to incur a further expenditure of public money on the national shipyards."

The pleasure of the House having been signified, the Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 10, until a Quarter-past Eight o'clock this evening.

Naval And Military Pensions And Grants

12.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware of the fact that at the end of the War Territorial and New Army officers are entitled to a gratuity equivalent to 124 days' pay for the first year of service and sixty-two days' pay for each subsequent year's service; whether a similar provision has been made in the case of the officers of the Naval Reserve Forces; and, if not, whether he will now take the matter into his favourable consideration?

I am afraid I cannot carry the matter further than to say that the subject is, and has been for some time past, under discussion between the Departments concerned.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that the depletion of our mercantile marine will make it most difficult for these officers of the Royal Naval Reserve to resume their civilian duties after the War, and that, consequently, their need for these gratuities will be urgent?

63.

asked the Secretary to the Treasury if he will take steps to have the separation allowance due to the father of Thomas Breakell, No. 260257, Royal Field Artillery, settled immediately, as this son made the allotment as far back as 17th April of this year?

Inquiry will be made, and the hon. Member informed of the result.

Messrs Denny's Shipyard, Dumbarton (Piece-Work)

16.

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty, with reference to the joiners' strikes in Messrs. Denny's, Dumbarton, if he will state in what respects the system of piece-work previously in operation among the joiners in this yard differed from straight piecework, and why the system was described as a system of modified piece-work?

We understand straight piece-work to mean that the employers and workmen enter into a contract by which the men agree to do certain work at a certain price. When piece-work was initiated in the joiners' department at Messrs. Denny's yard, I understand that the men were given an assurance that their earnings would never be allowed to fall below their time rate, and in the rare cases where this has occurred the firm have made up the difference. The form of piece-work in the joiners' shop in Messrs. Denny's yard, Dumbarton, is generally described as piece-work with a guaranteed minimum, and not straight piece-work, as that term is generally understood. It is perhaps only right to add that the system of guaranteeing time rate already referred to has become a fairly general practice in engineering establishments. It was for this reason that, in my answer of 15th April last, I described the system in operation amongst joiners in Messrs. Denny's yard as a system of modified piece-work.

When the right hon. Gentleman says that there was modified piece-work, does he mean that there was piece-work where the time rate is guaranteed?

Is not all the trouble in the shipyards due to the fact that there has never been a time rate in the shipyards?

Enemy Subjects (China)

18.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, considering that the twelve Germans were allowed by the British Consul-General to remain on the British concession of Shameen, at Canton, in China, simply on the understanding that they reported to him at the British Consulate every fortnight, he will state what is now meant by the supervision of the British municipal police and the strict conditions imposed upon them by His Majesty's Consul-General, which prevent them engaging in plots and intrigues against His Majesty's Government; whether these Germans are free to go backwards and forwards into Canton or to enter into intercourse with people coming to and fro from Canton; and, if so, will he have them either interned within barbed-wire enclosures, so as to prevent them going out and other people coming in, or else move them out of the British concession altogether?

The police supervision already mentioned in the reply to the question put by my hon. and gallant Friend on 13th June involves seeing that the German subjects

  • (1) report themselves every fortnight,
  • (2) do not go beyond the port limits, and
  • (3) close their offices and cease to do business on the island of Shameen.
  • Canton City being within the port limits, they are, no doubt, allowed to go there. The whole question of the treatment of enemy subjects in China is under consideration.

    What does the right hon. Gentleman mean by closing their offices? I thought that one of the conditions was that they would have to stop all trading operations?

    I said that they had closed their offices and ceased to do business on the island of Shameen, and I do not think that they can carry on business anywhere else.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the distance between the island of Shameen and the city of Canton is only about 30 yards, and that there is no difficulty in carrying on business across that distance?

    I am not familiar with the geography of that district. Of course, there is objection to these enemy subjects carrying on business, and if the hon. Gentleman has any reason to think that they do carry on business, in spite of the arrangement that has been made, I shall be very glad to have evidence upon the matter, and will look into it.

    Considering that many thousands of Germans are said to be at large in China, is there any object in sheltering these men in the British island of Shameen?

    Corpus Christi Day

    19.

    asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is in possession of information that would point to the enemy taking advantage of the decision of His Majesty's Government to refrain from bombarding Cologne on Corpus Christi Day for the purpose of moving troops or military supplies in the privileged area?

    Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the statement in the Press to the effect that the Germans, owing to this concession, were enabled to move troops in the privileged area?

    I believe that there was a statement, but I have given the only information in my possession.

    Prisoners Of War

    21.

    asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any, and what, restrictions are placed upon the sending of parcels from this country to British prisoners of war interned in Holland; and whether facilities will be given by the Government to enable a sufficient quantity of food and clothing to be sent to them from this country?

    In regard to the first part of the question, I am afraid I can add nothing to the reply I made yesterday to my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford. As regards the second part of the question, I am informed that although there was at first some delay in the dispatch of uniform and clothing, large consignments have been dispatched recently, and, in all, more than five thousand suits of clothing have been sent to Holland by the War Office and Admiralty within the last six months.

    Is there any objection to the sending of money from this country to prisoners of war interned in Holland; and, if so, what are the restrictions?

    I know that the question has been discussed, but I am afraid that I must ask for notice as to the exact present position.

    36.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the Railway-men's Convalescent Home, Leasowe Castle, Wallasley, which was commandeered early in the War for use by British troops, is now occupied by German prisoners of war; whether these prisoners or some of them are employed in repairing the sea wall; whether their employment in close proximity to the Irish Sea is either necessary or desirable; and whether, in view of the strain which has been thrown upon railwaymen by the War, he will take steps to secure that this convalescent home shall be restored at the earliest possible moment to its proper use?

    This convalescent home is at present occupied by prisoners of war. Some of the prisoners are engaged on urgent repair work to an embankment which was damaged by gales, and others are employed on cleansing the River Birkett. This latter work is done under the supervision of the Board of Agriculture, and will eventually benefit food production. I am afraid it is not possible to arrange to move the prisoners at present, but I am having further inquiry made as to whether the building can be released when the present work is completed.

    "Oppressed England"

    22.

    asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that a book by Major Beith ("Ian Hay"), entitled "Oppressed England," is being circulated under the impulse of advertisement in Australia and Canada, and that this book is prevented from being sent from Australia to England, Ireland, or Scotland by the War Precautions Act; and whether the Colonial Office, on behalf of the British Government, made representations to prevent this book being circulated in the British Isles?

    The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.

    Are inquiries being made in this matter, which is of very considerable importance, in view of the fact that this gentleman is a Foreign Office emissary?

    Military Service

    Youths Under Eighteen

    24.

    asked the Undersecretary of State for War if youths under eighteen have been, and are being, sent out to the fighting line; if not, will he inquire why Private T. Campbell, Sea-forth Highlanders, who was not eighteen years of age until February of this year, was sent out to France in January notwithstanding the protest to his commanding officer by his father; and, as this boy has been reported missing since the 22nd March, will he say what action it is proposed to take against those responsible for sending out this boy to France?

    I am making inquiries into this case, and will communicate with my hon. Friend in due course.

    27.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can state the present whereabouts of Private Peter Kavanagh, Royal Defence Force; whether he is aware that this soldier is barely eighteen; why has his father never received the allowance made to him; and whether the case of this soldier and his father and the fact that the lad joined up voluntarily immediately after his mother's death will be taken into account?

    Representations have already been made to me regarding this soldier's age, and the matter is being dealt with in accordance with the Regulations in such cases. I am also having inquiries made into the other points raised in the question.

    Volunteer Force

    26.

    asked the Undersecretary of State for War, seeing that the Volunteer Force (Tribunal Exemptions) Order, 1918, as regards additional or substituted military duties not exceeding twelve hours a week only applies to such men as may be called up under the above Order and not to existing members of the force, he will state the cause of this differentiation; and whether, in the event of the Army Council directing such duties, the men performing them will receive pay and allowances?

    The provisions of the Military Service Act, under which the Order in Council was made, only apply to men dealt with by tribunals on or after the 1st May last, and there are no powers-to apply the special provisions of the Order to existing members of the Volunteer Force, unless and until their exemptions come up for review. The Order in Council provides, inter alia, that the Army Council may require men coming within its scope to do twelve hours a week of military duty, either in addition to or in lieu of the drills which they would otherwise have to perform as members of Section B of the Volunteer Force, but the question of the classes of men to whom this special provision should be applied is now under consideration, and I am afraid I cannot make any definite statement at present. It is hoped to issue full instructions shortly.

    Conscientious Objectors

    31.

    asked for what reason, on 20th June, a military escort took from Winchester Gaol to Maida Barracks, Aldershot, H. R. Cudbird, a conscientious objector, whose sentence of two years' hard labour was not due to expire until October next?

    89.

    asked for what reason H. R. Cudbird, a conscientious objector who was serving a sentence of two years' hard labour in Winchester Gaol, due to expire in October next, was released on 20th June and sent, under escort, to Maida Barracks, Aldershot?

    If I can be furnished with the name of the regiment to which Cudbird belongs and his regimental number I will have inquiry made.

    War News For Troops At The Front

    49.

    asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the fact that the French troops receive a daily publication issued jointly by the French War Office and the French Foreign Office, which goes by the name of the "Bulletin Quotidien de Presse Etrangère," whereas the British troops in France only receive an occasional typed copy of the official communiqués; and whether the Government could arrange with the French for an English translation of the "Bulletin Quotidien" to be supplied to the officers and men of the Expeditionary Force in order that they may have fuller and more exact information about the War in different countries than is at present given to them?

    My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I am in communication with the military authorities in France on the subject.

    Will my right hon. Friend draw the attention of the military authorities to the fact that the troops on all fronts rely upon the German wireless for news, and could not a substitute be provided more British in nature?

    Vickery Brothers, Taunton (Business Manager)

    66.

    asked the Minister of National Service whether he has had his attention drawn to the calling up of the business manager of Vickery Brothers, cider merchants, Taunton, of which firm the two young brother partners are serving in France, and the business is in danger of being closed down; and whether, in view of cider being a healthy substitute for beer and the firm now paying £100 a month in cider duty, the manager may be specially exempted from military service?

    My attention was called to this case by Mr. Vickery himself, but it appears from his letter, received on 1st July, that he took no steps to apply to a tribunal for the exemption of his manager, although he was aware of his right to do so. I gather from Mr. Vickery's letter that the man is working as a War Agricultural Volunteer, and in the circumstances I do not see how I can take any action.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that it was simply because the man was doing part-time service on the land that he was prevented from applying and that when that condition was withdrawn he had no opportunity of applying?

    I think there must be some misunderstanding, because no part-time service by a man prevents him from applying.

    Did it not do so in this case, and was he not called up under such conditions as made it impossible for him to apply?

    I think there must be some misunderstanding, and if the hon. Gentleman will see me afterwards I will go over the case in detail with him.

    Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will get a report from the area commander?

    Slate Quarrymen

    67 and 68. Mr.

    asked the Minister of National Service (1) whether, in view of the dislocation of the slate trade and the inconvenience caused to electrical works by the withdrawal of men under the Military Service Acts, and consequent shortage of slates, he will receive a deputation of the quarry owners and representatives of the men to discuss the position; (2) whether representations have been made to him by those engaged in electrical construction as to the delay caused by the failure of the quarry owners to supply the necessary slates, owing to the continued drain of their essential men into the Army; and whether he can see his way to enable the quarry owners to obtain protection for the workmen engaged in producing an essential commodity for war purposes?

    In consequence of the representations referred to by the hon. Member a conference took place at Rhyl, on 21st June, between the North Wales slate quarry trade and the officials of the Ministry in the Welsh Region. Further particulars are being obtained from the trade, on receipt of which full consideration will be given to the requests put forward by the trade representatives at the conference. If the difficulties cannot then be adequately met, and a further conference is found necessary, it will be arranged.

    Cases Under Inquiry

    69.

    asked the Minister of National Service whether he is aware that persons who have been exempted by the City of London Tribunal with a right to further appeal are being called up for service, although their applications for appeal had already been lodged; and whether, as this involves extra work both for the National Service Department at Newington and the tribunal in having the notices cancelled, he will issue full and proper instructions to his Departments that will prevent this extra work and annoyance to the men concerned in the future?

    71.

    asked the Minister of National Service concerning Norman Hector Waite, of 137, Oak Lane, Bradford, who has been passed for military service in Grade 2, whether he is aware that this youth has been under medical care from the day of his birth; that at four years of age he had to undergo a serious surgical operation and at the age of seven he had rheumatic fever followed by St. Vitus dance, when his speech left him entirely for a month; that during the whole of his school life he had to be specially safeguarded against overstrain at school and for a period attended the open-air school under the orders of the school medical officer; that the Liverpool Victoria Insurance Company refused to accept him under the National Health Insurance scheme; that he was certified by his private doctor, on the evidence of twelve years as a patient, to have had an attack of chorea every year and was, on the date the certificate was given, namely, 27th June last, suffering from valvular disease of the heart and unfitted for anything other than the lightest employment; and that another doctor certified to similar effect on the same day; and if he intends to send this youth into the Army?

    Inquiries are being made into these cases, and I will inform the hon. Members of the result.

    Blind Parents (Son)

    70.

    asked the Minister of National Service if he will afford protection to two blind parents, aged sixty-seven and seventy-three, respectively, whoso only son, J. W. Muff, 57, Sandbeds, Cullingworth, Yorks, is called up for military service, the only other member of the family being a daughter, who resides in London and is obliged to work for her own livelihood (a waitress, receiving for her services 5s. a week in wages and a further uncertain and irregular weekly sum in gratuities, and paying out of her small weekly income 5s. a week for the supervision of her child during working hours), having regard to the fact that their son is a warehouseman employed by a firm engaged on Government contracts, and that they are dependent upon him for the management of their affairs and for care and attention every day of their lives?

    I have inquired into this case, and have ascertained that Mr. Muff's application for exemption was considered by the Central Tribunal. Exemption was refused, but the tribunal recommended that he should not be called up for a month from the date of their decision. This period has, in fact, been considerably extended; but though I sympathise with the representations of the hon. Member, I feel that this is one of the cases which Parliament intended should be finally dealt with by the Central Tribunal.

    Can my right hon. Friend say if the National Service Department are really going to call up a man who is the son of two blind parents, aged sixty-seven and seventy-three respectively, and put him in the Army without making provision for the two blind parents?

    I have inquired into this case, and it has been dealt with by three separate tribunals. In each case the tribunals had all the facts before them, and they decided that the man should serve. He actually went to the highest Court of Appeal, which decided against him. Special consideration was given, extending over a great many weeks, and it is very difficult to overrule bodies such as the Central Tribunal, which had all the facts before it.

    Do I take it, then, that the Ministry of National Service approves the taking of the only remaining son of two blind parents, aged sixty-seven and seventy-three respectively, and putting him into the Army?

    Is it not a fact that they would be entitled to separation allowances?

    That is, of course, a matter for the War Office. I can add nothing to what I have said.

    Head Carder, Cotton Mill

    72.

    asked the Minister of National Service if a head carder in a cotton mill, aged thirty-three, married, is protected from being called up for military service under the Order of 9th April; if this be so, will he say if the decision of the tribunal in the case of James Scholes, 12, Bank Street, Hadfield, near Manchester—namely, that he must join the Army on the 4th August, 1918—is valid; and will he say further whether a man protected under the Order of 9th April requires to have a tribunal exemption so long as he is protected by that Order?

    The hon. Member appears to be under a misapprehension as to the effect of the Order referred to, which withdraws exemption on occupational grounds held by men of certain ages. It does not confer any form of protection or exemption on anyone. A certificate of exemption held from a tribunal by a man not within the specified ages is not affected in any way by the Withdrawal Order. It may, therefore, be withdrawn by the tribunal in ordinary course or it may expire without renewal. In either case the man becomes liable for military service. It follows that the tribunal in the case of Mr. Scholes acted strictly within its powers.

    Blackburn Medical Board

    73.

    asked the Minister of National Service if he will state the nature of the inquiries he made into the method of medical examination by the medical recruiting board at Blackburn; will he say if he confined his inquiries to the medical board itself; will he, in view of the inaccuracy of the report which has been furnished to him, have independent inquiry made into the following cases, names and addresses of which have been privately furnished to him, namely: the case of a man who took with him a medical certificate from the superintendent of the Grange Sanatorium and also a certificate from the borough health officer, stating he was registered as a tuberculosis patient, and produced medical evidence that he had lost a brother and sister by the same complaint, and had another sister in the sanatorium at that time, and yet was passed Grade I; the case of a man of forty-three years of age, always an invalid, who produced medical testimony that he had a very weak heart, also suffered from varicocele, was badly nourished, weighed only 100 lbs., and was passed by the Blackburn Medical Board Grade 1; the case of a man who, five years ago, had been superannuated from the Civil Service on account of physical unfitness, and who since has been unable to do any work, and who, after a perfunctory examination, was refused an opportunity to explain his circumstances, and was passed Grade 2; the case of a man who had been examined three times previously and deferred as unfit, who has suffered for nine years from gastritis, and for the last fourteen months has been under constant medical treatment and under strict dietary, but was passed, without a proper examination, Grade 1; the case of a man producing medical certificates that he has suffered from double inguinal hernia, very serious, produced evidence of an unsound condition of his system, examination of his lungs revealing a hollowness on the left side, confirmed by X-rays examination, with abscess discharge from lung, passed Grade 2; the case of a man, aged forty-four, weighing 7 stone 7 lbs., height 5 ft. 1½ ins., suffering from double rupture, bleeding piles, and who, seven years ago, had a serious operation on his head and part of an artery removed, and who is subject to frequent dizziness, passed Grade 1; and the case of a youth, aged eighteen, who had only worked for six months in his life owing to ill-health, and for the last twelve months has been constantly under the doctor, and was under medical treatment at the time he was called up and passed into the Army in Grade 2; and if he will suspend the officials of the Blackburn Medical Board until the result of his inquiry is known?

    I am obliged to the hon. Member for sending me the cases referred to, and full inquiries are being made into them.

    Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the first part of the question and state the nature of the inquiries which were made?

    Inquiries are being made. The actual cases which the hon. Member sent me reached me this morning, and what I am doing to inquire into the working of the Medical Board at Blackburn is to take these cases and have them fully investigated.

    One-Legged Man

    74.

    asked the Minister of National Service whether he is aware that G. F. Herriman, of Atwood Road, Didsbury, who has had the misfortune to lose a leg and uses crutches, was called up for examination about a year ago and placed in category R R; that he was called up for another examination in the early part of the present year, when attention was called to his infirmity, but, notwithstanding this, he was again called up in the first week of last June; whether all men who have lost a limb are exempt from military service; and whether, seeing that the fact that a man who has lost a leg has been called up three times shows that the Department's system is defective, he will consider the desirability in such cases, with a view of saving trouble and expense, of issuing a cripple's rejection card?

    I was not aware of the circumstances of the case of G. F. Herriman, to which the hon. Member refers. I am making inquiries, and will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as the result is known. As regards the second part of the question, no man who has lost the whole or part of a limb can be medically passed for the Army. There is, however, a provision enabling such a man to be accepted, at his own request, into the Army to do clerical and other work for which he has been specially trained.

    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that cripples and people who have been bedridden for years are now being called upon to attend for medical examination, in some cases twenty or thirty miles away from the places where they live, and could he not institute some system to avoid this obvious absurdity?

    It is quite obvious that a clerk in a recruiting office does not know anything about individuals living twenty or thirty miles away. These people's names are on the National Register, and there is no possible description of their state of health in the register. They are therefore called up in the ordinary course, but there is a full procedure to prevent such things happening as have been suggested.

    Appeal Tribunals (Professional Representation)

    81.

    asked the President of the Local Government Board whether the existing Regulations issued to tribunals can be amended so as to give to a man appealing to an Appeal Tribunal against his grading the right to be professionally represented?

    It rests with the Appeal Tribunal whether to allow or not to allow legal representation in these cases, which, as my hon. and learned Friend knows, differ much from ordinary applications for exemption. I have not at present received evidence which shows that a change in the existing practice is necessary.

    Male School Teachers (Scotland)

    (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that teachers of the new military age are being called up with the consent of the Scottish Education Department, and that many schools in. Scotland are thereby depleted of male school teachers; whether, in view of the new arrangements as to the grading of the men of the new military age he will ask the National Service Department to suspend the calling-up notices in order to secure the best possible distribution of the available male teachers among Scottish schools?

    Teachers in Scotland are being called up in terms of the Military Service (No. 2) Act, 1918, the consent of the Scottish Education Department being neither asked for nor required. In certain cases, however, school boards or managers have represented to the Department that serious consequences would be entailed by the removal of individual teachers from particular schools. These representations have been considered, and recommendations in favour of a postponement of the calling-up have been made to the Ministry of National Service wherever Inquiry showed that without such postponement the interests of education would be gravely endangered. The new arrangements as to grading may conceivably alter the position; and, consequently, since the announcement of these was made, in the case of any representation where the teacher concerned is of the new military age, the Department have asked for the postponement of the calling up, pending an understanding on the general question being reached. As my hon. and learned Friend will recognise, however, such an understanding cannot be limited to Scotland alone.

    What reply did the Scottish Education Department get from the National Service Department?

    I have had certain Departmental communications, but I propose to supplement them by consultations with the Minister of National Service at the earliest possible moment.

    Army Doctors, Malta

    28.

    asked the Undersecretary of State for War how many Army doctors are quartered at Malta; what has been the average number of patients in hospital there during the last twelve months; whether any of the doctors in Malta have been there for more than eighteen months without coming home on leave; and, if so, whether he will arrange that doctors who have been in Malta for such a period shall now come home on leave and be then employed on duty at home or in France?

    Medical officers stationed at Malta have the same privileges as regards leave as other officers serving abroad. It is not proposed to bring home officers who have served for eighteen months at Malta, but applications for transfer to other stations will receive every consideration. I am communicating the information asked for in the first two parts of the question privately to my hon. Friend.

    Is it not a fact that there is a considerable number of doctors who have been in Malta since the beginning of the campaign who have never been moved away from it, although the requirements of the island are less than before?

    I do not think that the requirements of the island are less than they were before. It is a fact that there are some doctors on the island who have been there for a long time, but that applies equally to other arms of the Service.

    I think so. If my hon. and gallant Friend will put down a question I will answer explicitly.

    Discharge From Army

    32.

    asked the Undersecretary of State for War whether there is a prospect of alteration of the regulations which at present permit of a man, discharged from the Army owing to illness caused by the War, being demobilised and left with no means of support and yet liable to be called up again on his restoration to health?

    I am afraid I do not quite understand my right hon. Friend's question. Soldiers who are discharged owing to illness caused by the War have their cases considered for pension or gratuity. As regards their liability for further military service, this is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of National Service. I shall be happy to look into any case my right hon. Friend has in mind.

    Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware of a case of a soldier who has been discharged owing to illness, and demobilised, and left without any means of support whatever?

    I recollect now the case to which my hon. Friend refers, and will look into it further.

    Petrol Consumption, France

    33.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is satisfied with the steps taken to prevent the use of officers' cars in France for other than military purposes; and, in particular, whether the Regulations governing the issue of petrol to such cars and the inspection of cars on the road are as strict in France as in this country?

    This is a matter which I think must be left to the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, but I understand that the Regulations on the subject are very strict and that frequent road controls to check the use of motorcars are in operation. For units in the field, as distinct from lines of communication, etc., it is doubtless not possible to check the mileage run as carefully as it is at home, but otherwise the control exercised is the same.

    Is there as strict control behind the lines in France as there is behind the lines in England at the present time?

    I have made inquiries from the Army Service Corps, and I made inquiries this morning from a high authority on the subject.

    Army Service Corps, France

    34.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for War, in connection with the Army Service Corps in France, if he will state what grades of officers are allowed riding horses, and what proportion of grooms are allowed to each of such officers; whether this allowance of horses and grooms exceeds that usual for similar work in the French Army; and, if so, will he consider the advisability of cutting down the allowance?

    Administrative officers at General Headquarters and headquarters of formations larger than a division are allowed horses at the average rate of one horse to two officers. This applies only to officers who deal with horse transport; other Army Service Corps officers in this category are not allowed horses. Each officer serving with an Army Service Corps Horse Transport Unit is allowed one horse, and officers commanding Divisional Trains and Headquarters Cavalry Divisional Army Service Corps are allowed two horses. Officers of Mechanical Transport or Supply Units are not allowed horses. Grooms are allotted on a scale which allows one groom to each officer entitled to two horses. In the case of officers entitled to one horse only the duties of groom are performed by their batmen.

    There is no service in the French Army corresponding exactly to our Army Service Corps, the duties being included in the French Intendance Service. I understand that, before the War, all officers of the Intendance from captain upwards were mounted and were allowed one groom, but that since 1915 the only mounted officer of the Intendance of a Division is the Intendant Divisionaire (Colonel), who is allowed one horse and one groom. In the Army zone, however, a large number of officers of the Intendance who are employed on special duty are allowed one horse and one groom. In the zone of the Interior no officers are mounted, but are provided, if necessary, with motor cars.

    British East African Forces

    35.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the fact that the Germans are now 400 miles south of the Portuguese border, and still moving south, he can state what number of white, Indian, and coloured troops are still maintained in the north, not fighting, in British and German East Africa, stating officers and men separately; and whether he will now consider the advisability of all British officers, save those in immediate command of the King's Royal Rifles and required for police work, being moved to some other theatre of war or put on half-pay?

    I am sorry that I cannot give the information asked for in the first part of the question. With regard to the second part of the question, my hon. and gallant Friend is no doubt aware that wherever there are troops there must also be such ancillary services as transport, ordnance, and intelligence, and I can assure him that no redundant officers or ancillary services are being maintained either in British, German, or Portuguese East Africa.

    Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries as to whether there are unnecessary officers in British and German East Africa, as in neither Colony is there any fighting going on?

    Military Works, Cippenham, Slough (Labourers' Wages)

    37.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can state the rate of wages paid to the labourers on the work at Cippenham, Slough; how this rate compares with local agricultural wages; and what arrangements have been made to preserve local labour for the farmers and residents?

    Men sent from London are paid the London rates of wages, and local labour receive the local rates. These are 11¾d. and 11d. per hour respectively. In addition, they receive the 12½ per cent. increase. I understand that the local rate for agricultural labourers is 30s. per week. As regards the last part of the question, the names of men employed on agricultural work have been obtained and these are not engaged.

    Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this contract is paid in proportion to the number of labourers employed and not according to the amount of work done?

    Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the workmen engaged on this property engaged in mowing down the green corn crops?

    38.

    asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that no suitable gravel has been found on the corn-producing land at Cippenham, in South Bucks, recently taken in order to make a motor repair depot, and that, in consequence of this, gravel is now being brought from Twyford, which is about 14 miles from Cippenham; whether he is aware of the fact that the gravel at Cippenham was stated to be one of the reasons for selecting this site; and whether, therefore, it is still proposed to carry on the work there?

    The gravel at Cippenham is suitable, and none has been brought from Twyford. The remaining parts of my hon. and gallant Friend's question do not, therefore, arise.

    Is it not the fact that the gravel is only suitable after treatment, and that expensive plant must be put up in order to treat it and make it useful?

    I have no information as to that, but I am informed that gravel has not been taken from anywhere else.

    Royal Arsenal, Woolwich

    41.

    asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that men employed in the Royal Arsenal are being called up for medical examination, involving absence from work and consequent loss of wages; and whether, in these circumstances, it is customary to make an allowance to men called up for medical examination?

    I am inquiring as to the facts, and will let the right hon. Member know the result.

    Food Supplies

    Grass Land, Worcestershire

    42.

    asked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he is aware that the Worcestershire Agricultural Executive Committee have ordered Mr. James Print, the occupier of a small farm of about 80 acres at Arms-cote, Newbold-on-Stour, which he is quitting at Michaelmas next, to plough up the remaining 40 acres of grass on that farm on or before 1st August next; whether 40 acres is already arable land; whether it is the policy of his Department to order the whole acreage of a particular farm to be ploughed; and, in view of the fact that the land in question will require five horses to plough it and that there is no stable or cottage accommodation, he will give instructions for this order to be cancelled or held over until proper inquiries have been made by his Board?

    The Board have no information as to this case, but inquiry is being made, and the hon. Member will be informed of the result as soon as possible.

    Will the hon. Gentleman say whether it is the Board of Agriculture or the Food Department who are still pressing for the breaking up of grass lands?

    43.

    further asked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether it is with his knowledge and consent that the Worcestershire Executive Agricultural Committee are still ordering the breaking up of grass land, under threat of penalties, to be completed on or before 1st August next; and whether, in view of the shortage of labour to get in the harvest, he will give instructions that unreasonable orders of this kind should be withheld?

    My right hon. Friend is unwilling to interfere with the agricultural executive committee's discretion in the exercise of the powers entrusted to them. But if the hon. Member will supply particulars of any orders made by the committee which he regards as unreasonable, inquiry will at once be made into the circumstances. Generally speaking, however, the local committees are in a better position than the Board to decide on the merits of particular cases, and in view of the necessity for maintaining the production of corn, any occupier who is able to cultivate a larger area, either by his own resources or with such assistance as the agricultural executive can give, may be reasonably required to do so.

    Does the hon. Gentleman's Department think it more important to use labour at the present time in breaking up grass land rather than in securing the corn crop?

    To whom are protests to be made when orders of this kind are issued, as to insufficiency of labour?

    Protests should be made to the Board of Agriculture, and they immediately make inquiries.

    Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the local war agricultural committees justify their pressure upon the farmers by the pressure put upon them by the Board of Agriculture? Is that policy of theirs continuing at the present time for the coming season?

    My experience of the local war agricultural committees, which are mostly composed of farmers, is that they are not unreasonable if any representations are made to them.

    Beer (Agricultural Labourers)

    76.

    asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that brewers were refused, until the middle of July, 1918, permission to brew extra beer for consumption by agricultural labourers engaged in working long hours on haymaking; whether he is aware that by the date named the bulk of the haymaking is usually concluded; whether his attention was called some time ago to the fact that a Lancashire firm had asked to be allowed to brew from their own stock to meet the urgent requirements of haymaking and to recoup themselves when permission was granted in July; whether that request was refused; and whether it was the deliberate intention of the Ministry of Food to inflict an unnecessary hardship on agricultural labourers, many of whom are in advanced years and whose labour is essential to the saving of the crops in war-time and who, being temperate men, have always been accustomed to take beer during hay and corn harvest?

    The hay crop in 1917 was secured without extra beer being brewed, and it was decided, in agreement with the Board of Agriculture, that it would be unnecessary to issue licences in 1918, except for the corn harvest. Brewers may brew a fixed amount in each quarter of the year, but they are not permitted to anticipate barrelage. The Food Controller is fully alive to the necessity of providing the agricultural labourer with a fair share of the limited supplies of beer available.

    Will the hon. Gentleman say what ground he has for believing that it is possible to secure a hay crop without beer, whereas beer is necessary for the corn crop?

    Currants (Conditional Release)

    77.

    asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that his Department sent a letter on 16th April to a Mr. T. Stevenson, cake baker, in Curtain Road, E.C., releasing to him, through a City wholesale firm, fifty-five cases of damaged currants at a price to be fixed by the wholesale firm and conditional on these currants being used for cake to supply the Navy and Army Canteen Board, the Young Men's Christian Association, canteens, munition works, and institutions of a similar nature; and will he state in what condition these currants were, if they were fit for food, and what price was charged for them to this baker?

    The City wholesale firm were instructed to pass these currants to the baker at a price not exceeding 89s. 6d. a hundredweight. The currants were white and sugary, and therefore unsuited for sale as groceries. They were perfectly wholesome, and were sold at the same price as the sound currants forming part of the same consignment. The condition limiting the sale to the institutions mentioned was imposed in order to avoid an-undue preference being given to a limited number of traders by enabling them to sell currant cakes to the general public.

    National Restaurants

    78.

    asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is aware that the National Restaurant in New Bridge Street, E.C., serves at least 9 ozs. of cooked meat to a coupon, while other public eating-houses are only allowed to serve the equivalent of 8 ozs. of raw meat to a coupon according to the Food Controller's regulations; what weight of raw meat is represented by 9 ozs. of cooked meat; and if the National Restaurant is subject to the same restrictions and is working under the same Public Meals Order as other public eating establishments?

    Six vouchers are given at the National Restaurant in exchange for one coupon. Two of these vouchers are available for butchers's meat, and four for made dishes composed of what are known as offals. Nine ounces of cooked meat as served at the restaurant represent approximately 13 ozs. of raw meat. The answer to the last part of the question is in the affirmative. I may add that the National Restaurant is well within its rationed allowance.

    Is the State going to find the funds if there be any loss on these restaurants?

    Machine-Gun And Landscape Targets

    44 and 52.

    asked the First Commissioner of Works (1) whether the Stationery Office has recently undertaken the supply of machine-gun targets and landscape targets for the Army; whether these targets were previously made by British firms; and whether the contracts for them have now been placed by the Stationery Office with Messrs. Weiner and Company, a naturalised Austrian firm; (2) whether a recent order for landscape targets was placed by the Stationery Office with Messrs. Weiner and Company without competition; if so, for what reason; whether the landscape targets were required in sets of five pictures; and, if so, will he say why the British firm which had previously supplied them and had the necessary plates for their production was not invited to tender?

    The Stationery Office have recently undertaken the supply of machine-gun and landscape targets. Some of the former were previously supplied by a British firm. The landscape targets were five in number, and I have no knowledge as to what firm previously printed them. All the firms on the Stationery Office list were invited to tender, and only five replies were received. The orders were placed with Messrs. Weiner and Company and another firm after competition, and were so placed on the grounds of price, quick delivery, and quality of work.

    Will my hon. Friend ascertain the name of the British firm which previously supplied these landscape targets and owned the lithographic plates required for their production; and will he also inquire why that firm was not even asked to tender?

    May I ask my hon. Friend are Weiner and Company a naturalised Austrian firm?

    In reply to my right hon. Friend, the firm of Weiner and Company are a naturalised Austrian firm. In reply to my hon. and gallant Friend, I do not know the name of the firm about which he puts the question, but I understand that the Stationery Office were asked by the War Office previously as to a supply of these targets, and the Stationery Office supplied a list of firms.

    When the House of Commons lays it down that no work is to be given to any firm whose members are of enemy alien birth, then, of course, such firms will be struck off the list.

    Is not this the natural result of relying on a list of firms instead of offering by open tender?

    Intoxicating Liquors (Sale To Young Persons)

    45.

    asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution passed by the Oldham, Leicester, and other town and city councils regretting the widespread and increasing frequenting of licensed premises by very young people of both sexes, and urging that the age at which such young persons be allowed to purchase intoxicating liquors be raised to at least eighteen years; and whether he can see his way to give effect to such resolution?

    My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I understand that in licensed houses under the management of the Liquor Control Board a Regulation against serving intoxicating liquors to persons under the age of eighteen years is enforced. It is considered doubtful whether the Board have power to extend this Regulation to other houses in the areas under their control, and I do not think it would be possible under present conditions to introduce the legislation which would be necessary to make such a Regulation general.

    Ministry Of Health

    51.

    asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government propose to pass a Bill establishing a Ministry of Health before the Adjournment?

    My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. The proposal for a Ministry of Health Bill has been referred to the Committee of Home Affairs, and was considered by that Committee at its first meeting yesterday. After discussion, it became clear that the proposal raised questions of some difficulty, and it was decided to adjourn the consideration of the Bill to a special meeting of the Committee to be held early next week. It is, I think, obvious that it would be impossible to pass such a Bill before the Adjournment of the House in August next.

    Can my right hon. Friend say whether the Bill will be introduced before the Adjournment?

    Owing to the announcement that the Bill was only delayed by Departmental difficulties, and that it was stated before Easter that the Bill was practically ready, I beg to give notice that I will ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House.

    I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House on a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the delay of the Government in introducing a Bill to establish a Ministry of Health.

    I would point out to the hon. and gallant Gentleman that there is a Blocking Notice standing in the name of the hon. Member for Pontefract, which deals with the same topic and which, therefore, will preclude the question being raised by way of a Motion for Adjournment. Then arises a question under Standing Order 10A, which says,

    "Regard shall be had by Mr. Speaker to the probability of the matter anticipated being brought before the House within a reasonable time."
    In my judgment, in view of the statement made by the Home Secretary to-day, there is a probability of the matter anticipated being brought before the House within a reasonable time. Therefore the Blocking Notice would stand against the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

    May I ask your ruling, Sir, as to how long a Member has power to block a question being discussed in which there is a strong feeling both inside and outside the House? I should like to know what steps can be taken to prevent such a scandal as that?

    The reply to the hon. Member's question is contained in Standing Order 10A, which says that if the Speaker considers that there is a probability within a reasonable time of the matter being discussed, then the Blocking Order is to stand, but if there is no probability of the matter being discussed within a reasonable time the Blocking Notice is not to operate as a Blocking Notice. It must, therefore, be for me to decide in each case, and for the present, in view of the statement made by the Home Secretary, all I decide is that there is a probability that the matter will come up for discussion.

    Will it be possible for my hon. and gallant Friend to renew his application in the event of the Government further postponing the introduction of the Bill?

    It is quite clear that when we get a decision from the Committee of the Cabinet upon this matter a new situation will arise. I will not commit myself. All I say at present is that a new situation will arise, and that I will reconsider the matter then.

    Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer give the House an opportunity of discussing the decision of the Government when it is arrived at?

    I think what you, Sir, have just said indicates that if you think the circumstances justify it, you will yourself take steps to enable the House to express its opinion.

    Life Assurance Policies

    53.

    asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the repeated statements by Members of this House that the life assurance companies, with profit to themselves and loss to the assured, have lapsed millions of life assurance policies during the last year or two, he will appoint a small Committee to test the accuracy of these statements, to ascertain whether the provisions of the Courts Emergency Powers Act, which are designed to protect industrial policy holders, are being evaded; and whether there is reason to suppose that the life assurance companies are making profits out of the. War or are treating their members unjustly in the matter of war extras, etc.?

    I do not think the appointment of a Committee, with a reference limited to the points to which my hon. Friend draws attention, would be satisfactory, but I have under consideration the question of a more general inquiry into industrial life assurance business.

    Enemy Aliens

    58. The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Sir E. CARSON:—To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is in a position to make any announcement as to whether the practice of allowing enemy subjects to file specifications of inventions in the Patent Office is to be continued?

    As I understand that my right hon. Friend will make a statement on this subject to-morrow, I beg to postpone my question.

    Internment

    82.

    asked the Joint Patronage Secretary to the Treasury whether he has received a resolution passed by the Leicester War Aims Committee urging on the Government the need of at once taking the necessary steps to intern all aliens of enemy origin over sixteen years of age, naturalised or un-naturalised, until the termination of the War; and what steps he proposes to take in the matter?

    The answer is in the negative.

    Brentford Gas Company Bill

    64.

    asked the Chairman of Ways and Means whether he can state what portions of the Brentford Gas Company Bill the promoters intend to proceed with; and when the House will be asked to further consider the Second Reading of the Bill?

    I am informed by the promoters of the Brentford Gas Bill that the provisions of the Bill relating to the acquisition of land at Chiswick Gas Works, described in Part I. of the Second Schedule of the Bill, will be withdrawn. As regards the remainder of the Bill, the promoters desire to postpone consideration until the House may have proceeded further with the Government Bill dealing with statutory prices. I am unable, therefore, at the present time, to say when the other part of the Bill will be proceeded with.

    Registration Of Voters

    80.

    asked the President of the Local Government Board, if, for the purpose of putting persons on the new register, verbal evidence of close relatives as to identity has been accepted by canvassers, and has been admitted as being valid by the authorities concerned?

    I have no information as to the evidence which has been accepted by canvassers. If any person has been placed on the lists or omitted therefrom improperly, an objection can be lodged or a claim can be made to the registration officer within the prescribed time.

    Ireland

    Sinn Fein Organisations

    83.

    asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Sinn Fein clubs and other organisations declared to be dangerous by special Proclamation on 3rd July are singled out for this treatment because their aims and objects are seditious or detrimental or because members of these organisations are suspected of committing or approving acts of violence or disorder; and whether, before issuing the special Proclamation, the law officers took steps to deal with lawlessness, sedition, or disorder by the ordinary law?

    I must refer the hon. Member to the Proclamation itself. It indicates sufficiently the reasons which induced the Irish Government to consider its issue advisable. The ordinary law has been fully resorted to.

    Dundalk Gaol (Dietary)

    84.

    asked whether, on or about 28th June, prisoners in Dundalk Gaol went on strike; if so, what was the alleged cause and how was the difficulty overcome?

    I am informed by the General Prisons Board that on the 28th June the prisoners in Dundalk Prison decided to cease doing certain work which was optional on their part. The cause of their action appears to have been their dissatisfaction with the approved dietary.

    Was it not really a fact that they were deprived of the food parcels they were receiving hitherto?

    I have no information to that effect. My information is that they did not like the food.

    Censorship (Pamphlets)

    88.

    asked the Home Secretary whether a pamphlet called "The Truth About the Secret Treaties," by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton, was submitted to the Censor in accordance with Regulation 27 c; and, if not, why this course was not adopted?

    I am informed that this pamphlet was not submitted to the Press Bureau, and am inquiring why that course was not adopted.

    Can any rules be issued to show why this pamphlet should be submitted when Lord Grey's pamphlet had no need to be submitted? Are any rules made public to give an idea what pamphlets are or are not to be published?

    But as everybody interprets the Regulation in a very different sense to every other person, how are we to get on?

    Is not the only interpretation that the Government proceed against the writers of the pamphlets they dislike?

    Is it not the case that Lord Grey's pamphlet was treated as a war pamphlet by the War Aims Committee, and not by the right hon. Gentleman's Department?

    Is it not a fact that the pamphlet issued by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton is treated exactly like the pamphlet published by Lord Grey, namely, it is issued as a document for propaganda purposes by the National War Aims Committee?

    Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this pamphlet bears no indication of the address of the writer, and in other respects does not conform to the Regulation?

    I have already said I am inquiring as to why the Regulation was not complied with. Perhaps this question may be deferred till then.

    Statutes For 1917–18 (Bound Volume)

    62.

    asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he will make available to hon. Members at the earliest possible date the bound volume of Statutes for Session 1917–18?

    Copies of the volume of Statutes for Session 1917–18 are now being bound, and it is expected that they will be available for distribution to Members on the 22nd instant.

    Miles' Divorce Bill Lords

    Reported, without Amendment, from the Select Committee on Divorce Bills; Report to lie upon the Table.

    Bill to be read the third time.

    Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings in the House of Lords on the Second Reading of Miles' Divorce Bill [ Lords], together with the documents deposited in the case, be returned to the House of Lords.—[ The Lord Advocate.]

    Maternity And Child Welfare Bill

    As amended in the Committee, to be printed. [Bill 61.]

    Orders Of The Day

    Business Of The House

    May I ask the Leader of the House if the House is to sit on Friday, and, if so, what business will be taken?

    It will be necessary for the House to sit on Friday, when we propose to take the further stages of the Maternity Bill, the Second Reading of the Naturalisation Bill, and, if time permits, some smaller Bills.

    With regard to the procedure to-morrow, when, I understand, the aliens question is to be discussed, is it the intention of the Government to move the Adjournment of the House, and will the policy of the Government be announced in the Debate?

    Our intention is that a member of the Government shall move the Adjournment. We have not yet considered whether a statement will be made at the beginning or whether we shall wait for the discussion.

    Ordered, "That the proceedings on the Parliament and Local Elections Bill be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour, although opposed."—[Mr. Bonar Law.]

    War Pensions And Allowances

    I beg to move, "That, in the interests alike of the State and of the wounded and discharged sailors and soldiers and their dependants, and of the widows and orphans of those who have fallen, it is essential that all questions relating to pensions and allowances should be kept free from party politics and the influence of party organisations."

    This Motion deprecates the interference of politicians and political organisations in pension matters in the interests, first of all, of the wounded men and their dependants, and in the interests of the widows and orphans of those who have fallen. To me it seems little less than deplorable that the cause of the wounded men, a cause which, I am sure, we can agree to be sacred to all of us, should run the risk of being exploited in the interests of party politicians. I hope we can also all agree on this, that nothing is too good for the men who are risking all, who are saving, and will save, this country, and, in my view, at any rate, nothing is too bad for the caucus monger, who thinks he can climb into a big position on the shoulders of maimed or disabled men. The Motion goes on to say that this interference is to be deprecated also in the interests of the public life of this country and of the State at large. It seems to me to be imperative that the corruption of public life, which is inevitable if pensions become a matter of political auction, should at all costs be avoided.

    4.0 P.M.

    I should like to say a word as to how this Motion comes before the House. Some two years ago there was started in this House a voluntary committee, consisting of members of all parties who were interested in pensions. The work we had in view was, first of all, to consider pensions questions as they arose in this House, and to suggest improvements and reforms. I do not think it is too much to say it was due to the action of this committee, and in particular to the able and energetic effort of the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge), that a Pensions Minister was set up as an individual Minister of the Crown, and that the various pension adjusting and paying authorities were combined under that Minister. The second object we had in view was this: We desired to set up a bureau, or an office, where those who took an interest in the matter could get the various conundrums, which are propounded to us by our constituents, answered, or, at any rate, could get assistance towards answering them. In the spring of this year we received information that the Liberal party had themselves set up a Pensions Bureau somewhat on the same lines. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. McKinnon Wood) is the President, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wiles) is, I think, Treasurer, and the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) is the hon. Secretary. Shortly afterwards we also received information that our senior official at the Parliamentary Pensions Bureau was resigning his work, and was to take up work with the Liberal Party Bureau. About the same time also there was a statement made in the public Press that the Labour party was taking somewhat similar action, and this is what was said by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henderson), as reported on 25th January, that in conjunction with the Parliamentary Committee of the Trade Union Congress, the executive had decided that a National Joint Labour and Trades Congress Soldiers' Bureau should be established in London, and that he was to be the chairman of it. These two events having taken place, a meeting of our non-political bureau was held and a resolution was passed unanimously calling on the executive committee to approach the leaders of the various political parties, and to urge upon them that it was very desirable that the redress of pension grievances should not be organised on a political basis. We accordingly approached the Prime Minister and the Leader of this House, both of whom expressed themselves in accord with the resolution of the committee. We also approached the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife (Mr. Asquith), who, we understood, was in general accord with us, although perhaps with some reservations. So far as the Leader of the Labour party was concerned, we had not the pleasure of seeing him, but we were informed that the matter was being considered by the committee of the party, and, for anything I know to the contrary, it is still being considered. But we did receive a communication from the right hon. Member for Barnard Castle, in which he said that
    " representations were made to both the party committee and to the Labour Party Executive that members of our unions and other affiliated organisations who were discharged or disabled soldiers had no opportunity of obtaining advice and assistance from any organisation connected with our movement."
    And so a Labour pension bureau must be started. I am not quite clear as to the attitude of the trade union movement in the matter, because the official organ of the General Federation of Trade Unions at the same time issued a pronouncement in which they said:
    "The much wiser plan would be for all the organisations who are seeking to hide their political aims under an altruistic cloak to go out of the business altogether and leave it to the State and public opinion."
    At a meeting of our bureau in March the Resolution which I am now moving was passed, and before it was placed on the Order Paper of the House we secured for it the signatures of 270 Members of all parties, and a large additional number have since signified their adhesion; indeed, I am informed it is now backed by about 500 Members of this House. That being so, before I give the reasons for our action I want to say a word as to the terms of the Resolution. I do not want those terms to be misunderstood. In the first place, there is no attempt on the part of those who support the Resolution in any way to limit or restrict the inalienable right of any Member of this House to bring forward questions which affect his own constituents. No one could do that, even if they wished, and certainly we have no desire to do so. Secondly, no one desires in any way to interfere with the free right of discussion in this House with regard to policy in relation to pensions. The House will, I hope, always accord, not in any party spirit, but in the broad spirit it has shown in these discussions of the last four years, the fullest consideration to this very important, and oftentimes very difficult, question. Still less do we wish by the Resolution in any way to put a limit to the generosity of either this House or of the present or any succeeding Chancellor of the Exchequer. No money compensation, when all is said and done, can bear any sort of proportion to the risks run or the sufferings and losses incurred. No payment, however great, voted by this House can begin to discharge the obligation we are under to those who have been fighting, who are fighting now, and who will fight to the end the battles of this country. This is quite clear. The House will always give sympathetic consideration to proposals with regard to pensions when brought before it, and to discussions on the subject. That fullest consideration will be given, I believe, by members of all parties in one spirit, and one spirit only, and that is to try and secure at once the most generous and most equitable terms possible. I am satisfied, further, that every proposal that is brought up for increased expenditure by the Government, by the Pensions Minister, will always be cheerfully and readily voted by this House. But that is not, in my view, the danger. These broad questions of policy will always be discussed, and rightly so, here. But the difficulty and danger we have to deal with is in connection with administration, with details, with questions of granting or refusing pensions in individual cases, and it is somewhat significant that these party pension bureaux have been set up to deal with actual details and actual cases—and not merely with broad questions of policy. I may be told that this is not so, and that their object is simply to give information—that they are not proposing to deal with details of that kind. It may be that that is so. I have no wish to misrepresent anybody. But I should like, if I may, to quote a very frank statement from a paper for which we all have the greatest regard, I mean the "Manchester Guardian," which, in a recent issue, stated the case with very great and almost cynical frankness. On the 15th May it said:
    "The discussion should be an interesting one, but it will not be a practical one. The Liberal Pension Bureau, over which the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) presides, is a highly efficient organisation and it will go on. Either the Unionist and the Labour parties will have to imitate it, or the Liberal party will have this advantage to themselves. It is, one fears, too late to talk about pensions not being a party or political matter, and the party that tackles the question most efficiently in the interests of the beneficiaries may have a very strong pull in politics in the future. We may like it or not like it, but that is the reality."
    That, at any rate, is frank. [An HON. MEMBER: And true!"] I venture to hope it is not true. I trust that a practical issue will come out of this discussion. If it does not, then I think we are in for a very serious danger. Do not let us disguise that from ourselves. We are in for an era of considerable corruption in public life, and I mention this in the interests of Members themselves. I would like to be allowed to quote, if the House will indulge me, a few cases from American experience. But, further, the men themselves will suffer. I think a large number of the men and their dependants, through political pressure and otherwise, will get often more than their deserts, to the exasperation, I am afraid, and to the neglect of just and worthy cases who do not happen to have this political pull. That is, at any rate, my view. Let us assume for a moment that these party bureaux start perfectly honestly, as no doubt they intend to do, to give guidance and information. Assume that is so. I am willing to go this far with my hon. Friends and say there are a good many cases, unfortunately, of maladministration, of ineffectual and unsatisfactory administration with regard to pensions. Things are infinitely better now than formerly, and we owe a great deal to the Pensions Minister. But the system is not yet perfect. So far as the party bureaux are concerned, they assert they will assist in getting matters put on a better footing in regard to individual cases, and I have no great quarrel with them on that ground, providing they stop there. But my point is that they cannot stop there, and that is why I am afraid I must join issue with the hon. Member for East Edinburgh. I hope he will treat this as a matter of general discussion. I want to try and make my point. Assuming that the bureaux are set up to give information, it is impossible for them to remain at that. Why? We will assume that cases are taken up by party agents, and, to use a slang phrase, results are secured, and in certain cases pensions are awarded where they had not been granted, or are increased. What is the result? Inevitably the machine will take credit for that; it is bound to do so, and just about the time of, or shortly before, an election notices will begin to appear in which credit is claimed for these cases in which pensions have been obtained or increased, and probably at the foot of the notice will appear something in the old form about "Vote for Jones, the soldiers' friend." That will inevitably be the result. Do not let us disguise that from our minds.

    Let me carry the point a step further. An election is on. We will assume that the poison has eaten in; that the word has gone round that pensions and politics are to run in double harness. Political candidates are by nature anxious to please—in fact, it is part of their peculiar charm. Question time comes after a meeting, and the candidate is asked by a voice at the end of the crowded hall whether he is aware that the questioner has never had a proper pension, and will he promise the questioner, say, 30s. a week, or whatever it may be? The candidate has no time to go into the merits, and he does not know whether the man is entitled to 30s. or not, but he hears in a hurried whisper from a trusted source that the questioner is an influential person whose vote is uncertain, and he is tempted to make some sort of promise accordingly. Do not let us disguise these things from ourselves, for that is the kind of risk that is likely to occur.

    I have frequently pointed out to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh that the proper way to conduct a debate is to listen to what the speaker has to say, and then reply to it intelligently later on, and not to carry on a running commentary. I invite the hon. Member to follow the ordinary course.

    I would like to refer to experience in America on these lines. We know that the pension administration and the whole system of pensions in America after the Civil War was unsatisfactory. I do not wish to put it much higher than that, but Americans themselves have put it very much higher. I am not going into the whole matter, for there are whole volumes about it, but one of the first things that was secured as a result of political action was that politicians succeeded in securing the payment of 25 dollars, or £5, paid by the Federal State authorities, to every agent who got a man's pension through. The result was the creation of a whole army of pension attorneys and doctors, and collecting agencies, and, of course, having secured the £5 bonus, they proceeded to do what they could to cajole additional funds out of the pockets of the pensioners themselves.

    It is interesting to note that immediately the present War broke out, all parties at Washington came together and agreed that they would prevent similar mischief, not to use too strong a word, arising in this War. In October last an Act was passed, which is now the law, for veterans serving in this War, and under that law, in the first place, all the old Civil War pension laws are entirely inapplicable, and anybody fighting on the American side in this War cannot claim under the old Civil War pension arrangement. Secondly, the new law has two features with which we are quite familiar. There are allowances to wives, children, and dependants. Then there is what we call here a pension, but it was interesting to find during the discussion in Congress that the word "pension" has now become synonymous with charity, and they cut out pensions and called it compensation for death or cases of disability. Those two features we are quite familiar with, but the third feature was not to be what we should call a pension, but it was to be an insurance on a contributory basis. Of course, it is only fair to say that the contribution paid by the man was very small, and the contribution paid by the State very large, but the emphasis comes on the fact of there being a contribution.

    It was felt that by accepting the principle of contributory insurance, you would do a great deal to destroy the possibility of all that army of pension attorneys and pension doctors, and if a man was to be put on the pension register he would have had to have contributed something beforehand. I cannot say whether that is going to be a permanent arrangement or how it is going to work, but from this Act being passed, at any rate, two things are clear: First of all, that there was no very pronounced objection on the part of the troops who were then being raised, and who were being drilled in large camps; and, secondly, while the measure does seem a strong one to require a contribution from the men themselves, this is in itself some evidence of the strength of the feeling and the endeavour to try and cut adrift altogether from the old state of things under the old Civil War pension arrangements.

    The evils that arose under the old pension arrangement were really quite ludicrous. There was a whole series of cases known as the "Bounty Jumping" cases. I should like to say here that the way the chief evil arose in the States was this. With us in this House it is a constitutional rule that no spending proposal or any Finance Bill can be introduced except by a Minister of the Crown, but in America any private member can introduce a Bill spending money on anything. When I was in the States, two years before the War, there were some 20,000 private pension Bills dealing with private cases introduced by various members of Congress and the Senate every year. That emphasises the point I have been endeavouring to make—that it is in the detailed cases, and not in questions of broad policy, that the real risk of corruption lies. With regard to the bounty jumping cases, what happened was that when President Lincoln instituted the draft—that is, modified Conscription—each separate State in the North had to furnish a definite quota. If that State could raise that quota by volunteers, well and good, but, if not, they had to resort to a ballot—that is, compulsion.

    Many States, to avoid the odium of compulsion and the ballot, offered very high bounties, in some cases as much as 500 dollars or £100 for volunteers. There were a great many cases of men in one State taking the bounty, joining up for a month or two, and then deserting and repeating the same process in the neighbouring State. The desertions from the Northern Army in the course of the four years' war are said to have numbered 125,000. I do not think that anybody can say that these bounty jumpers, especially as hardly any of them ever went to the front, were particularly meritorious persons from a pension point of view, and yet in hundreds, if not thousands, of cases of these bounty jumpers special Bills were introduced owing to political pressure, and the men were awarded pensions by special Acts of Congress, although under the general pension law they were not allowed to have pensions at all.

    Very much the same sort of thing happened, but in rather a different way, in regard to what were known as the "Broomstick" marriages. About the "eighties" the practice was introduced, and Congress agreed to accept Bills legalising any sort of native ceremonial for the marriages gone through by an Indian or a negro soldier, and they agreed to pay all arrears, with the result that a very lively business at once started in fitting, as the Americans describe it, the Chloes, the Dinahs and the Elizahs with husbands, who had been dead twenty or thirty years, in order that they might claim as awards pensions dating back to the period of the Civil War. This was done by what I have called special Acts of Congress, passed for particular cases. I do not think we shall ever get to that state of things here. For we can safely say this about English people, that they are substantially and fundamentally honest. We have this further safeguard: We have broad, general rules laid down in the Warrant for administering pensions on lines, generally speaking, of equality for all; but we must not forget that there is under the Warrant a very large discretion still possible. Ministerial discretion is allowed in cases on the border-line as to whether they are entitled to a pension or not, and in cases where attributability or non-attributability arises. There is also provision for an appeal, and there is a discretion when a man's permanent pension has been fixed as to whether it should be raised or lowered. Wherever there is discretion of this kind permitted there must be an opportunity of political pressure, and it is because of that that I commend this Motion to the House.

    We have been told by the "Manchester Guardian" that nothing can be done, but, really, is that so? I venture to think that there are possible remedies, but it is not my business to devise remedies. If this Resolution is carried, as I hope it will be, I dare say we can discuss that matter further. It might be possible to have Commissioners set up under the general jurisdiction of the Pensions Minister but independent of him; or there might be a strong standing Committee of all parties in the House, as was suggested in the morning papers only this morning, to which cases disallowed by local war pensions committees might be referred, and also cases brought up by Members of Parliament to the Pensions Minister. I do not wish to be pinned down to the actual scheme. I have worked out roughly a scheme in my own mind, but I do not think we have to deal at this moment with any scheme of that kind. We have to consider "aye" or "no," if there is a serious danger ahead. We have to consider "aye" or "no." Assuming there is a danger, is there any possible means of dealing with it? I think both those questions should be answered in the affirmative. There is a strong feeling in this House that pensions must not become a pure matter of political football, and I urge most solemnly on the House that this is a very serious question, not only for the future of the public life of this country, but a very serious question in the interests of the men, the dependants, the widows, and the orphans themselves.

    I desire to second this Resolution, not necessarily for reasons identical with those which have influenced my hon. Friend opposite, but from an entirely independent standpoint. I hope to derive assistance from this House, and I ask hon. Members to consider the Resolution as something more than a pious opinion. The Resolution is really a challenge to the House to face the danger which must, I think, be recognised on all hands, and I appeal to the House for guidance in these very difficult circumstances. The honour of the nation is involved in the way in which it treats this question of the dependants of our soldiers, and our wounded soldiers themselves, and I think we ought to take every wise counsel we can to avoid that subject falling into the arena of party conflict. It is far above all personalities of fending and proving, as we say in the North. The problem of the widow, the orphan, and the incapacitated is huger than any of us ever dreamed that it would be, and it is growing day by day and week by week. The last thing that we desire by this Resolution is to check efforts to meet all the hard cases. Indeed, I have the strongest feeling that the safest path is to meet every reasonable claim fully and fairly, and to act with generous readiness, not encouraging agitation by refusal to meet or delay in meeting all reasonable claims. Think of the time spent and of the attacks made, met, and repulsed and renewed and eventually successful involved in the words "attributable to" and "aggravated by"! If that had been recognised earlier, a great deal of a very injurious controversy and very many cases which have caused great unrest in the country would have been avoided.

    The Notice Paper has teemed with questions enforcing points which have only been conceded after many days. When we have obtained some concession, even up to the present moment, there has always seemed to be an advocatus diaboli to put in some little Clause to deprive the concession of a great deal of its usefulness. I do not know that I should like to say the party to which he belongs. I am rather inclined to think that he has a permanent position on the Treasury Bench, whoever may be his neighbour. Take, as an instance, the question of foster-mothers. One of the Regulations says that for a foster-mother to become entitled to a pension in respect of her foster-child she must have maintained him out of her own money. I have a case within my own knowledge where a foster-mother adopted a child of ten months old, and twenty years of motherly care and attention are to go for nothing. She happened to be able to prove that she went to work for one or two years and, therefore, she has just scraped within the limits of the Regulation and becomes entitled to a pension, but no account is taken of her mothering. There is another matter where delay is causing very strong feeling, and that is the condition in which some of the wives and families are left owing to the amount of their allowance. I have here a letter from the wife of a soldier which I am afraid I could not read without exhibiting too much emotion, owing to the condition to which she and her sick children are reduced by the amount of the allowance which they receive. To leave these subjects undealt with is to invite agitation, and, if there is no other result, I hope that this Debate will stimulate the Pensions Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer to prompt action.

    I do not think that such things as the training of disabled soldiers or the treatment of consumptives or orphans should be involved in party influences or become subjects of party controversy. They are the concern of the whole House, and it is for the House as a whole to devise a system which will avoid possible evils. In demanding that we are not seeking to lessen the individual action of Members of Parliament, and least of all are we seeking delay but rather the forwarding of recommendations of all just claims. The worst possible injury that could be done to political life would be that these things should become the subjects of party auction. As a Liberal, I feel very free indeed to say that, for there happens to be no Liberal either at the Treasury or in the Pensions Ministry. Personally, I do not wish to make any party capital out of the blunders that have been made nor do I think that there ought to be any party credit taken for the successes achieved. It is the House which has been generous and not any particular individual, and it is for this House, this present sitting House of Commons, and not the next House of Commons, to secure the soundest possible basis for determining the State's liability and the best possible machinery for securing effective and prompt working. The only way to prevent agitation is to prevent grievances. They cannot then be exploited by loquacious Codlings and Shorts perambulating the country as rivals in connection with pensions. It is perhaps the most difficult internal task that the House has to face. There has been some progress made. The combination of local committees and Government administration has resulted in much good work, but it is the local committees that discover the grievances and the Government that makes cast-iron regulations. The Treasury cannot possibly give the local committees a free hand. The liability is entirely national, and you cannot adopt the device of giving the local committees a free hand on condition that they contribute a portion of the funds. Local finance cannot be joined. I put charity entirely aside. It is not for this House to exploit charity in this matter, nor can the Treasury liability be arbitrarily limited. The Treasury cannot say, "Here is £50,000,000 a year. The local committees may divide it as they like." Whilst our hearts are all most sympathetically inclined towards our soldiers and their families, I think our heads must sympathise very considerably with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the difficulty in which he is placed.

    The problem, however, is there. How are grievances to be avoided without being brought into the party arena? The difficulty is to reconcile Regulations with discretion in all border-line cases. What amount of appeal is there to be? It has been suggested that there should be some strong semi-judicial appeal committee, and, if we can get it into the minds of all these men that they are fully heard and that full justice is done, then we shall avoid the grievances which now exist. There is another class of case. A decision may be made where the case is not within the Regulations. We all have such cases. The Ministry of Pensions are at present considering one which I have sent them. Then we require somebody with sufficient authority to make recommendations to the Government and to press their opinion, and I cannot see that we can appeal anywhere except to this House. It is wise for us to consider whether we cannot improve on the present position. I suggest a committee of this House chosen on non-party lines or on all-party lines to consider grievances. It would draw its support from this House and have the responsibility which the finding of the money involves. This House must face the responsibility and give its attention to the best method of undertaking it. Most of the sentiments of the Amendment which my hon. Friend (Mr. Hogge) is to propose regarding the duty of individual Members can be accepted by anyone. Every man in this House ought to use his "influence and power to secure not only an adequate scale of pensions, but the prompt and efficient administration of the same, and all attempts to render to those who have made great sacrifices for their country such information and guidance as will enable them to claim and receive from the Ministry of Pensions, either direct or through local war pension committees, their full and just rights" should receive warm approval. Of course, no one can limit the duties and activities of Members in respect to their Constituents, but that is very different from any definite party propaganda in this connection. The object of this Motion is to secure the sanction of the House in favour of the removal of this great national duty, as far as possible, from the party arena It is not want of sympathy with the wounded or with the widows which prompts the raising of this Debate nor any desire to restrict the aid and sympathy extended to those whose patriotism has left them dependent upon our care. The record of those whose names, with mine, appear upon the Paper will exonerate them from any such imputation. I do desire the attention of the House and the counsel of the House with regard to this matter, and I make an appeal for a helpful Debate on the part of this great Assembly.

    I beg to move to leave out the words "all questions relating to Pensions and Allowances should be kept free from party politics and the influence of party organisations," and to insert instead thereof the words "all political parties use their influence and power to secure not only an adequate scale of pensions, but the prompt and efficient administration of the same, and that all attempts to render to those who have made great sacrifices for their country such information and guidance as will enable them to claim and receive from the Ministry of Pensions, either direct or through local war pension committees, their full and just rights should receive the warm approval of the House."

    I have been waiting all the afternoon to hear what is the case in favour of the Motion upon the Paper, and I confess, after an hour's Debate, that I am still without any evidence that it is necessary. The speech of my hon. Friend who has just sat down (Sir G. Toulmin) was one in favour of my Amendment, stating explicitly some arguments which I shall not require to repeat as to the inadequacy of the pension warrants and the lack of prompt and efficient administration. I take it my hon. Friend will vote with me in the Lobby in favour of my Amendment, and will abandon the lost cause for which his name stands upon the Paper. There is a history, which has been referred to, in regard to this matter. The hon. Member for Salford (Sir M. Barlow) who opened this Debate, was good enough to say that I had taken a large part in what had been accomplished in the domain of pensions. That is probably true, because as a matter of fact the Government have thought so little of any abilities that I possess that they have not asked me to do anything that might help the War forward, and I have devoted my time to looking after the interests of those men and the dependants of those men whom all of us in this House helped to recruit into the Army. It was, as a matter of fact, my idea that the Members of this House should free themselves from all outside criticism by forming a non-party committee in the House which would look after the interests of all our constituents who might not be receiving justice or right under the administration of pensions.

    I remained honorary secretary of that committee for one whole year. I understand now why I remained the honorary secretary for one whole year, because the present chairman of that committee says openly in the House this afternoon I had done so much on behalf of pensions that they were obviously glad to have the use of my services. Therefore, I am the more astonished, after the testimonial I have received from my hon. Friend, and that, in absence from this House and without giving me any notice, I was removed from the honorary secretaryship of this committee, of which my hon. Friend is the chairman. That does seem extraordinary, if I did possess the abilities with which he credits me, and if I did start this committee—as a matter of fact I did; that is beyond all dispute—after a year's work given to the committee, and after having provided the committee with the one man who could carry on the work of that committee. Incidentally, the hon. Member referred to the fact that the secretary of the bureau left the committee when I left it, as if that were a grievance. The story of that is quite simple. When the Parliamentary Pensions Bureau was started, there were very few who knew anything at all about pensions. In order that the Parliamentary Pensions Bureau should be a great success, I voluntarily surrendered the services of my own private secretary, who had devoted months of his time and labour to getting up this question. Obviously when I left, or rather did not leave, but when I was given my cachet, my discharge as a disabled man from the Parliamentary Pensions Bureau, it was ridiculous that my hon. Friend should expect that my own private secretary would remain to carry on the work. That is a little bit of personal history which I am sorry to have to introduce, but it is quite as well that the House should know the facts.

    I should like to know what the hon. Member disputes at the present moment with regard to any of these points of fact. My hon. Friend opened this Debate, and if there were any facts he wanted the House to know, presumably he would have given them to the House. He says that the House has not yet got the facts. I suggest that the next time this Committee opens a Debate it should choose some speaker who can give the House the facts, in order that we may discuss the question at issue. To come a little closer to the history of this peculiar Resolution, it is rather curious that it has only been discovered since the creation of what is called the Liberal War Pensions Bureau that there is anything political at all in interesting yourself in pensions. Take the creation of the Ministry of Pensions. It is an absolute fact, again, and a well-known and ascertained fact, that one party in this House—the Labour party—in making an arrangement with the present Prime Minister, insisted that the Ministry of Pensions should be given to that party and to no other party in this House. [An HON. MEMBER: "Is that true?"] It is true!

    Because, if he does, I will give the history of my being asked to be an official under a Pensions Ministry, and I will tell the House what the right hon. Gentleman said when I refused. Does the right hon. Gentleman dispute that?

    When I was asked to be Under-Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions and refused to my right hon. Friend, who is now listening, on the ground they had no right, as a Government, to hand it over to one party, my right hon. Friend told me that because I refused I would receive no further political promotion.

    I deny every word of that statement. The hon. Member spoke to me behind this bench, and his case was that he was a far better man to deal with the matter. I put it to him that I thought, however good he was, he might have a little patience. There was not a word that passed between us on the lines that there had to be a Labour Minister.

    I can produce the evidence and I can produce witnesses. If my right hon. Friend cares to persist, I can persist. Not only he but the present Prime Minister said that and delivered it by message on more than one occasion. That can be proved.

    Statements of that kind should not be made unless they are accurate. I deny every word of it. I should like to have that proved.

    My right hon. Friend shall be furnished with the proof. The proof is that there was present at the conversation which took place between myself and the emissary of the Prime Minister another hon. Member of this House, who heard the whole of the conversation and who can give evidence, if the right hon. Gentleman likes, on oath.

    I am dealing with what concerns me for the moment. This is a charge made against me. I say there is not a word of truth in it.

    I repeat that my right hon. Friend did say that to me, and I can recall to his mind a further conversation in which he said this and the exact place and circumstances, and who received the appointment as a result of what I said. I am quite prepared at any time to prove that right up to the hilt. But lest it rest there. [An HON. MEMBER: "You cannot!"] Well, I am not the least unwilling that it should rest anywhere else. My right hon. Friend gets up and flatly denies what I have said. My recollection is as keen and as good as his. He cannot, to put it in another way, produce anybody to say that he did not say that. Let that be the point. The point I was making was that the Labour party in this House, in the arrangement made with the present Prime Minister, claimed the Ministry of Pensions as their specific right. That is an undeniable fact. I am not saying for the moment that the Labour party, which is divided in this House, would seek to make any political use of pensions, but, if allegations are going to be made about other people, it is well to bear that in mind. Further, we must never forget that before even the Liberal War Pensions Bureau was started, before ever the Labour Party's Bureau was started, there was started the British Workers' League, of which the Minister of Pensions was, and is still, the honorary president. In connection with that league there is a Soldiers' Fellowship. Members of that organisation have gone about addressing meetings in all parts of the country, stating at street corners and at meetings that they were able to deal with the cases of discharged men, and that they were able to deal with them very much better than anybody else, because their honorary president was also Minister of Pensions. As a matter of fact, for many months cases of appeal, which the hon. Baronet the hon. Member for South Salford accuses other people of sending to the Ministry of Pensions for redress, went from the British Workers' League, of which the Minister of Pensions is honorary president, to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Gorton (Mr. Hodge), who is Minister of Pensions, in order that they should receive redress. It was not until the Liberal party started a small organisation to give advice and guidance to their own constituents and to the people who apply to that office that the Leader of the House and the Minister of Pensions and all the rest of the Coalition and conglomerate Ministry discovered that this was an attempt to prostitute pensions to political purposes.

    I have never heard a Motion put forward in this House with less substance and fewer arguments than that which has been put forward to-day by the hon. Member for South Salford. To begin with, he has not told us—we might as well not mince matters; the attack is levelled at the Liberal War Pensions Bureau—of any single instance in which the Liberal War Pensions Bureau has done anything to use the administration or the award of pensions for any political purpose. He has not suggested a single case, he has not produced a tittle of evidence. [An HON. MEMBER: "He was going to do so!"] If he was going to do it, why did he not do it in his speech? Why did not the Seconder of the Resolution tell us what is the gravamen of the charge against the Liberal War Pensions Bureau? If the Liberal War Pensions Bureau has been guilty of abuse in the matter, there is the Minister of Pensions on the Treasury Bench. Let him give chapter and verse for any action or instance in which this bureau has abused any single privilege which might otherwise attach to it! I remember that after I was discharged from the Parliamentary Pensions Committee that I did not leave the membership of that committee. My hon. Friend who moved this Resolution, and the hon. Gentleman who seconded it, will remember that in the Parliamentary Pensions Committee we had a discussion as to what ought to take place as a result of the use to which pensions, award or administration might be put for political purposes. I made the suggestion—it is useful to bear this in mind—that there was no reason at al why a non-political or Parliamentary Committee should not meet from time to time to discuss and agree on decisions on questions of policy in regard to pensions, and to put those decisions to the House of Commons for their acceptance, leaving to the Labour party, to the Liberal party, and to the Tory party—if they had the ability to start it—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"]—Yes, if they had the ability to start it—the provision of guidance and information to their constituents inside the pension Warrant. That was leaving the machinery of information to the parties if they wanted to do it, but leaving the question of policy to the Members of this House, discussing it in common. That was unanimously turned down by this so-called non-political Parliamentary Pensions Bureau, which consists of less than 25 per cent. of the Members of this House, which imposes certain restrictions upon Members of this House becoming members of that committee, and which seeks to dictate policy to this House.

    5.0 P.M.

    The subscription! The hon. Gentleman says that any hon. Member can subscribe. That is perfectly true. The result is that, as a matter of fact, less than 25 per cent. of the Members of this House have subscribed.

    No; it is not. Subscription to the Parliamentary pensions group is voluntary, but subscription to the Parliamentary bureau is essential before Members can get information. I know, because for long I was hon. secretary of it.

    No; it is not limited to a shilling. There is no limit to the subscription.

    The hon. Member over and over again has put forward statements which I cannot allow to pass. I suppose, on the Amendment, I shall have another opportunity to answer what he has said?

    I do not understand the hon. Member. He gets up and says that I have said something wrong, and he wants the opportunity on the Amendment to disprove these questions of fact. I hope be will get it. It would be rather interesting. But it is a fact, nevertheless, that the honorary treasurers are in the House at this moment, and they know what I am stating is true—that there is no subscription to the group, but there is a subscription to the bureau.

    That is quite true. My hon. Friend has not refused any information to any member, but my hon. Friend knows perfectly well that no member is summoned as a member of the bureau who has not subscribed. It is no use trifling over details of that kind.

    It is trifling to say that no member who does not subscribe to the bureau has a right to be present at the meetings and take part in the business.

    Then that only shows that the hon. secretaryship has fallen into bad hands since I left it. As long as I was secretary the hon. Member was invited. However, putting aside all these personal points, which I am sorry have been mentioned, but, having been introduced by the Mover of the Motion, have to be replied to, my Amendment goes on to something of much more importance, with which I hope the House will deal, namely, the inadequacy of the pensions and the prompt and efficient administration of the same. We have had within two years three Pension Ministers, one White Paper, and two Warrants dealing with the question of pensions. It is true to say that this question is still very far from being settled. I propose to give the House one or two samples as to the way in which these pension Warrants are still in embryo. The first of these is one which has always occurred to me as an illustration of the stupidity of the scheme under which pensions are administered. To-day, if a disabled soldier is discharged and is in receipt of a pension, he is entitled as a matter of fact to a corresponding pension for his dependants—that is to say, he may have a pension for his children and that pension is proportionate to the amount awarded him in the first instance. On the other hand, if a soldier is discharged disabled, and he has dependants other than children in respect of whom there has been separation allowance, then he is not entitled to a pension for those dependants. That is a monstrous thing. Take the simple case to-day of the boy of a widowed mother. While he is in the Army his widowed mother can draw separation allowance for him. If he is wounded and discharged from the Army his widowed mother cannot draw any pension corresponding to the pension awarded him; whereas if he had been a married man with three children, he could draw for those children while in the Army, and subsequently what he is entitled to. There is a case where the pension Warrant is at the moment still extremely inadequate.

    We seem to be getting into irrelevancies. We are not discussing the merits or the demerits of certain pensions. What we are discussing is the in-advisability of the administration of pensions being influenced by party politics.

    On that point of Order, Mr. Speaker. My Amendment distinctly raises the question as to the full and just rights of the man.

    The hon. Member's Amendment clearly does not go outside the Motion that has been proposed.

    So far as it deals with the topics mentioned by the Mover and Seconder of the Motion, certainly.

    On that point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I do not, of course, want to do other than obey your ruling, which I always try to do; but what I want to raise on my Amendment, in addition to what I have already put, is this, that instead of the pensions and allowances being kept free from party politics it is the duty of the various parties in the State to use their influence to get the pensions made adequate. I was trying to show by the one example I have quoted that the kind of work that the political parties could do, both inside and outside this House, is the making of the Warrant more adequate to the needs and conditions of the men and their dependants.

    The general proposition which the hon. Member lays down is perfectly in order, that all political parties should unite in endeavouring to obtain the best pensions and allowances for discharged and disabled soldiers and their dependants. When, however, the hon. Member goes beyond that and says, "Now I will give you a case where if I were the Pensions Minister I would add this or that to the Warrant," I think he is going beyond the limit of discussion. I trust I have made myself clear. The general proposition the hon. Member seeks to lay down, as I have said, is quite correct, and relevant to the Motion, but I deprecate, and I shall have to rule out, any proposals to inquire into the merits or demerits, or the failure of any particular Warrant, or of any policy not approved by the hon. Member.

    I appreciate that ruling, Sir, and I do not mean to criticise the existing Warrant. I was only proposing to show by means of a great many particulars—which I can now leave out—how at the present time this provision made by the House of Commons is totally inadequate, and I wanted to deal with the question of how to help to promote efficient administration. However, I am quite willing to accept your ruling, and to leave the thing at the one example I have given, which is only one out of twenty or thirty that anybody who understands this problem can give by way of illustrating the inadequacy of the present Warrant. I will deal with the question of administration. If I may be allowed to say so, on the question of administration I think surely it is the duty of all parties in the House of Commons to keep the Pensions Minister up to the scratch. As a matter of fact, the present Pensions Minister, with characteristic bluffness, has invited people actually—I am quoting his own words—to kick him, in order that he may, I suppose, kick the officials inside the Ministry. But surely one of the only ways in which you can discover whether or not the administration is prompt and efficient is by getting that information at first-hand from those who are concerned. What do we find in regard to administration to-day? I will only quote one instance, so that I hope I will not trespass on a point of Order, and I will not elaborate the point, but I would remind the House of this one fact alone, that in the Soldiers' Awards Department at Chelsea there are 2,000 clerks, and they are dealing with 12,000 cases per week, the bulk of which are new cases. That is, one clerk is dealing with one case each single day at Chelsea. That is a question of administration. Yet, if the rules of this Debate permitted it, I could show that cases have taken as long as twelve to thirteen months to get settled by the Pensions Ministry. If the Pensions Minister, or this House, thinks for one moment that the public opinion of the discharged and disabled men, of the widows and dependants of these men, is going to stand that for any length of time despite your Tory, despite your Liberal, despite your Labour men—well, this House is wrong, and the Pensions Minister is wrong! There has been a lot of talk this afternoon about the intervention of parties in this question of pensions. No party can go to the polls at the next election without a programme which will embrace a programme of the discharged men. Every party will have its own programme for that purpose. It is surely futile for this House of Commons, which has a mandate from nobody, which is going on after this Debate is concluded to prolong its own life for another six months, after having given 288 of its own Members all kinds of decorations——

    That is all very well, but I am afraid the hon. Gentleman is introducing many irrelevancies.

    Well, I hope I will be able to finish my speech with fewer irrelevancies, Mr. Speaker. We are, I say, going on after this Debate to the prolongation of our own life, and at the same time we are going to achieve what by passing this Resolution here this afternoon, saying that it is inadvisable that parties should use pensions for political purposes? We think, I say, that that is going to stop the opinion outside of the people concerned! It is madness to think so! What right have we, who are the elected representatives of the people who matter, to say that these people shall not take their own methods of getting to know their own rights in respect to the Pensions Warrant? It is a monstrous doctrine! It is a doctrine which is promulgated by no other Department serving the Government at the present time. I know no Department of the Government which refuses to give any information to any Member in regard to any of his constituents. If you admit, as the hon. Member who raised this Debate admitted at once, that he does not seek to interfere with the inalienable right of a Member of Parliament to deal with his constituents, what right have you to go further and say that you will interfere with the right of those Members when, for their own convenience, they make an arrangement by which their business will be brought forward in an orderly fashion by themselves? If forty, or 100, or 150 Members of this House care to band themselves together and say on this question, "Our cases will be dealt with by an arrangement for which we will be responsible if those cases are the cases of our own constituents," who is going to say that that is not the right, the prerogative, and the privilege of hon. Members of this House, and who is going to stop it? What earthly sense is there in this House passing a pious Resolution which it cannot put into operation, which it has no right to put into operation, upon which its opinion is not worth the paper on which the Resolution is printed, and which is not a Resolution at all in fulfilment of the body of opinion of the people concerned? These people, whatever parties remain in this State, are determined themselves to see that they get their rights, if not from this House of Commons, from the next House of Commons. I beg to move.

    I beg to second the Amendment.

    I have no desire to enter into the quarrel between my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, or into the disputes between the late committee and the present. All I say is that looking at the facts and the history of the matter, there is no man in this House or outside it to whom the Members and the public are more indebted than the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, who mastered this subject long before a Pensions Minister was appointed and to whom everybody throughout the country, as in this House, referred, before they could understand any part of this scheme. I never knew there was any objection taken to people receiving information from him, and if you ask my opinion upon the subject, I say that his removal from his position on that committee was one of the shabbiest transactions I have ever known in this House, and I have known a great many.

    He was removed from the secretaryship. No one denies that, and I say it is a shame—does anyone deny that? So far as the Resolution is concerned, I think it would be very much better if there was something in it. So far as I can see there is nothing in it. As my hon. Friend said, you cannot prevent these discharged soldiers and sailors making a political point of it if they wish to, as they will, but with regard to the point he makes as to the administration of pensions, I am bound to say that I have found the greatest courtesy from the present Pensions Minister, who has dealt with every case I have submitted to him. They have not been many, but he was reasonable throughout. I have known cases, however, where five months elapsed before a wretched 5s. is paid to a dependant, and there is no doubt there has been great delay in many cases. I do not say it is attributable to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions. It is probably due to that enormous staff which we get up for all these new Departments, with the result that what is everybody's business is nobody's business. It is in that direction that I wish to support this Amendment as being a reasonable Amendment and as pointing to something which we want done, which ought to be done, and which will have to be done, for the country will see that it is done. It may be neglected and a great deal of ill-feeling aroused throughout the country, but if you are going to give pensions reasonably and generously, above all they ought to Be given quickly, so that no time is allowed to elapse between the creation of the right to the pension and the payment of the pension, because that is where the trouble begins and where the discontent is caused.

    It seems to me that the Amendment is either an evasion of the point at issue or else a declaration, naked and unashamed, against keeping the pension administration free from party politics. The action of my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh, who, unfortunately as I think, ceased to be hon. secretary of the pensions group, has been quite inconsistent with the public spirited action he took before he ceased to hold that position. As he himself has said, he was largely instrumental in forming the pensions group in this House on non-party, all-party lines, a powerful group and one which I think has achieved a great deal, largely under his leadership. But why was that old party group formed? It was formed for the very object which is stated in the Amendment, in order that all political parties use their influence and power to secure not only an adequate scale of pensions, but a proper and efficient administration of the same. That was the object for which it was formed. But my hon. Friend has changed his policy. His policy now is that parties should use their influence, not in combination, not in unity, but separately and on party lines through party bureaux. That is to be his policy now.

    No; but surely that is the effect, surely it means throwing the pension system into the vortex of party politics. Is that necessary? Has any reason been given for it except the unfortunate circumstance that my hon. Friend has ceased to be hon. secretary of the pensions group. Has the plan of working on non-party lines been a failure? I think it has been a success, that it has been able to achieve a great deal, and that nothing has been shown to justify your proceeding on separatist rather than on united lines. Surely we want to get on the bedrock principle in this matter. What is the bedrock principle? We are all agreed upon this, that there ought to be equal treatment, equal justice to all disabled men in proportion to their disability, and equal treatment for the families and dependants of those who have fallen. Anything like favouritism is, I am sure, an idea of horror to us all, and the worst kind of favouritism is that which is due to political bias, or a desire for political gain—both insidious things. We are all conscious of each other's infirmities in that respect, and if they once creep into the great pension system which the War has compelled us to set up, they will not be at all easy to eradicate.

    The argument that one party when in power has done this or that will be considered a respectable argument against another party, when in power, doing the same thing. Already that type of argument is being used. We hear the Liberal party sets up a party bureau because the Labour party has one, and the Conservative party will, no doubt, set one up if we have the brains to do it. I venture to think that if we are to maintain the principle upon which we are all agreed, then we have to ask the political organisations to use some discretion in this matter and to keep their hands off pensions administration. When I say that, I do not mean that the party organisations, central and local, may not have to discuss great questions relating to pensions, especially if differences of opinion arise and party differences of opinion arise. I hope devoutly they will not, though if we follow the policy of my hon. Friend we are going straight for it. I think they ought to keep their hands off dealing with cases in the constituencies; the political organisations ought not to hold themselves out as agents for getting people pensions. However good their intentions may be when they start on that business, rivalry is sure to arise between what are, after all, rival organisations in the constituencies, and we shall hear that the party agent in a political constituency is very clever in getting people pensions, or that he has the ministerial ear more than others. And so the merry game will go on.

    There really is no need for the party organisations intervening in this matter; the pensions committees are the proper bodies to deal with it. I quite agree that the local committees have not at present reached the necessary standard of efficiency, nowhere perhaps, and certainly in many places they fall below the desirable standard, but they at any rate have one sole motive in view, and I do not think that could be said of political organisations. The sole motive of the pensions committees is to do the very-best for their clients, and the remedy for their shortcomings is not to call in the political organisations, but to improve them, and to make them as efficient as possible. The local committees have had a very difficult task to perform. The pension system, since it was set up, has gone through one great revolution, and ever since the administration has to a large extent been in a process of flux, or perhaps I should say evolution, with the result that there has been a great deal of confusion in the minds of the people interested, the people who want these pensions, or what they are entitled to.

    A great many mistakes have been made both by the local committees and also by the central organisations, and these have resulted in a large addition of the post-bags of Members of Parliament, who have found themselves confronted with conundrums which even experts have found it very difficult to solve. But I want to point out that there is this non-party bureau in existence which Members of Parliament can use, and that the pension system is now beginning to take its final form, though I quite agree it will need improvements. The work of the pensions administration, whether in localities or in the centre, will now proceed with increasing accuracy and regularity, and the right policy, I maintain, is to improve the official organisation, and not to hand it over in any way to political bodies. Much has been done to improve the official organisation. The local committees, for example, have been reinforced by adding to them representative men and women, and if the localities do not give the men what they are entitled to we shall soon hear about it. Then, when the pressure of the War is over, it will be possible to have the services of many citizens whose energies are now absorbed by war work. The Ministry is putting its house in order, and we may rely on the Central Department working with more ease and regularity. I must confess that I look forward with some doubt as to what is going to happen when the War is over and when party Government once more assumes sway. We have now a Labour Minister, we have a Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions who is a Conservative, and we have a Coalition Government, but the time, I suppose, will come when the Ministry of Pensions will become the preserve of, or, if that is too strong an expression, will pass under the control of a Minister and a Government all of one colour. I do wish some policy could be discovered by which the Ministry could be thrown open to some extent to all parties, and that some machinery might be devised by which the Ministry could come under the observation of all parties, in order that we might at all times be assured that it was being administered without fear or favour on national lines, and without the influence of party. Therefore, I welcome the suggestion that has been made that some Committee should be set up which would bring that about. I doubt whether public opinion will like our slipping back after the War into a state of things when a Government Department, as it seems to me, is completely withdrawn from the observations of the elected representatives of the people. However that may be, I think the Pensions Ministry stands in a special category, and ought to have associated with it a Committee of members of all parties, who can inform themselves as to the administration, and make reports and recommendations to the Ministry and to this House. I think in that way we should have a really national Department. I do hope that whatever we do we will not follow the advice of my hon. Friend (Mr. Hogge), and I hope that sooner or later he will repent of it himself.

    I should like to say how much I support the suggestions of my hon. Friend who has just spoken. So far as I understand the position, the Mover of the Resolution desires to put the cap on any party political move with regard to the administration of pensions, or, in other words, to prevent the men who have served their country in the trenches being used for the benefit of the party machine. The object of the Amendment which has been moved is, that while in sympathy with any movement which this House may set up to safeguard the interests and welfare of discharged soldiers, it desires to leave the door open for any party to work for the benefit of these men. So far as the Debate has developed one cannot help coming to the conclusion that both the Mover of the Resolution and the Mover of the Amendment, as well as other hon. Members who have taken part in the discussion, have at heart the true interests of the soldiers who have served and are serving their country. Believing that, I want to make a suggestion, and I would ask the Mover of the Amendment as well as the Mover of the original Motion to accept it. I desire to insert in the Amendment, after the words "political parties" the words "to act in combination to." If those words were acceptable I think the Amendment would meet the views of every hon. Member of this House. In appealing to the Mover of the Amendment and the House to support this suggestion I would remind the House that when I returned from overseas I took steps to start a movement having at heart the welfare of the soldiers, and it materialised. In the statement which I issued to the Press I said that it ought to be a non-political organisation to maintain the high spirit of comradeship which is bred in the trenches. That idea materialised until there is a big movement now in existence to carry out those objects. But as it developed I became aware of a feeling that because Members of Parliament were associated with it we were trying to make capital out of it. I discussed this in a friendly way with my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Sir H. Greenwood), and I sent in my resignation to the committee, because I believed that being an M.P. on the committee it would be a peg for some people to hang a complaint on and to attribute political motives. So far as I was concerned I kept clear of my own Constituency. I was asked by many to go down there to start a branch of that movement, but I did not do so for the simple reason that if I had done so I could have been accused of making political capital out of it, however well-intentioned I may have been.

    I sincerely support previous speakers in appealing to this House to try to keep this question outside the political arena. It has been said by one speaker that you cannot keep the soldiers out, and that these men are becoming interested in political organisations. My answer to that is that if they are interested in political organisations they can put good men on their committees and strengthen their interest in that way. But I do strongly feel that this House ought to combine and that there ought to be one Parliamentary Committee representing every section of the House, of all political creeds, which will be the one tribunal which will act between the men and the Department which has to deal with pensions. I feel that if we do not do something like that the men themselves will form an organisation which will be quite clear of any political influence, and they will have their own party which will develop into something approaching a military party in this House. We do not want that any more than we want anything else that is undesirable. But that is in all probability what will happen if we do not do something in the way I have suggested. In saying that, I am not saying just merely my own opinion, but it is what I gathered during the two years or more that I spent with the men in the trenches. I should like to see it come about that the different organisations which are catering for the welfare of these men will one day merge into one big whole. If those who are connected with these various movements do not do something on these lines the men will do it for them. I should like to see every Member of Parliament and every organisation or committee which may be in existence and having the welfare of these men at heart working in that direction. In sending in my resignation I said that if I remained on the Committee it might be said, being an M.P., that we had political motives in view, which we well knew to be untrue, but that it was mighty difficult to persuade the general public that we had not some political axe to grind. I then added that, taking all the circumstances into consideration, I would ask every Member of Parliament connected with the movement to consider the possibility of following my lead, and that in doing so they would be consulting the interests of those who had served and were serving their country. I added then, and my point is that we could all come together on non-political lines, and that we could support in this House the Parliamentary Pensions Committee of which the hon. Member (Sir Montague Barlow) is chairman. Surely we can put aside our political views in any movement such as that. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) said he was removed from the Committee. I remember going to the Committee for the first time. I had not the slightest idea what was to be done, but I found that new members of the Committee were to be elected at that meeting for the ensuing year, and, to my great surprise, someone proposed me and I was elected. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh was not present at that meeting. Had he been present I have not the slightest doubt that if he had been proposed I should have seconded him, so keen was I to keep that particular movement out of the sphere of party. I would ask the hon. Member for East Edinburgh if he would be prepared to accept my Amendment.

    I have listened with great pleasure to the remarks of my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Sir N. Griffiths), and I have listened to them with special respect, because up to the present he is the first Member who has spoken on this question of pensions who has actually served overseas. I remember, and I think the House ought to know, that the hon. and gallant Member was the pioneer of tunnelling troops, which now number tens of thousands on our many fronts. Although I have differed from him on some matters of details, I know that he has always had at heart the welfare of those who have so gallantly served in this War. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh makes rather too personal an appeal on this great question. I remember the meeting at which he was not re-elected hon. secretary of the Parliamentary War Pensions Committee, but he was elected a member of that Committee—a distinction which I should have thought, and which I am sure any Member of this House would think, was something to be proud of. He refused to sit as a member with the rest of us on the Parliamentary War Pensions Committee, and it was immediately after that that what is known as the Liberal Pensions Bureau was formed. If it was formed because the hon. Member for East Edinburgh took umbrage at the fact that he was not re-elected hon. secretary of the Parliamentary War Pensions Committee, all I can say is that I hope no other Member of Parliament will act in similar way. As a Liberal, I say that this Liberal Pensions Committee, which is purely a party concern, does not represent the Liberal Members of this House. They have never been consulted. Those of us who have been keenest on pension matters before the War—I make a great distinction between those who were keen on service and pension matters before the War and those who have been converted since the War—have never been consulted. This is a personal matter with me, because I am a Liberal; and while the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, much younger than myself, was advocating, properly and well, the payment of pensions to soldiers, some, like myself, were doing their best to serve their country, following persistently their pre-war record. I resent the attempt—and I say it in the presence of the right hon. Gentleman the Whip of the Liberal party—to form a party committee without, at any rate, consulting the whole party in this matter, and I regret, in the interests of that party, of which I am, and will be, an active, vigorous, and independent member, the setting up of this committee, which can have no other effect than a cleavage of that splendid unity which was at its best in raising the Army and which, unhappily, is disappearing now that the Army is becoming gradually discharged or de-mobilised.

    But this is far above a personal question. Personal matters are nothing now. The problem is this: We shall have between 5,000,000 and 6,000,000 discharged and demobilised soldiers and sailors when this War is over. These men, or nearly every one of them, will come back with many grievances, most of them justifiable. Remember that our Army which has borne the heat and burden of the War since 1914, is the worst-paid and worst-pensioned Army in the English-speaking world. Every soldier has served beside Americans and Colonials, who are very highly paid, very highly pensioned, and in other matters they have rewards far beyond the dreams of soldiers who have served for the Mother Country. Every one of these soldiers comes back with a grievance, which is emphasised because he finds that his fellow workers, who were left behind, are enjoying a prosperity which was unheard-of in the history of industry in this country. He finds that his house is gone. He finds that his wife has gone—probably to live with her mother. In thousands of cases that is true. I am only trying to put the gigantic problem which we must face on this question of discharged soldiers and their pensions. I know that some have an idea of a leisurely demobilisation that will permit Government Departments, not very vigorous, never very long-sighted, not always sympathetic—from the last category I except the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Pensions—to act without haste. This idea of leisurely demobilisation of the British Army, to my mind, is quite erroneous. When peace is declared the natural desire of these mighty forces, 96 or 97 per cent. of which never served before the War, will be to get home by the shortest route and get back to civil life, and to imagine that the same discipline can hold men together in peace-time that holds them together because of the War is to misread the best characteristics of British men. The demobilisation will be rapid or the men will demobilise themselves. The very rapidity of the demobilisation is one of the difficulties which we have to face now and in the future. I myself believe that nothing but the most just and generous treatment of discharged and demobilised soldiers now, as an example, will smooth or alleviate the grievance that every returned man feels—a grievance that you may think is unjust, but, remember, a grievance that is emphasised and acerbated by the nerve-strain that comes to every sailor and soldier who has been a few months, let alone a few years, engaged in this awful War.

    The object of any Government should be to get these gallant men back to civil life as quickly as possible on the best terms possible, with adequate pensions for those who qualify under the Royal Warrants now and the Royal Warrants of the future. I myself propose my own remedies for helping these men, one being to give them all a preference for Government employment, but that is a matter which is not raised in this Debate. Now we have this petition signed, as has been stated by my hon. Friend who moved the Motion, by 500 Members of this Parliament, and as the Irishmen are not present and are not included——

    Then it includes the Irish; but in any event I know of no petition to the Leader of the House signed by a larger number——

    I got a request from the hon. Baronet asking me to be present to-day as one of those who had signed it. I certainly did not sign it. I know that a great many of my colleagues who got the same letter did not sign it, and if we are included in the 500 Members the hon. Baronet is——

    Perhaps I may explain that, as the Secretary of the Bureau is ill, the figures were given to me at the last minute, and I have not been able to check them, but if there is any discrepancy I will be very glad, of course, to correct it. I understood that those were the figures.

    Be that as it may, if any hon. Gentleman did not sign the petition I do not quite understand his point of view. If there is anybody in this House who wants to see this question of pensions made a party issue, he does not understand what he is in for and he does not understand what the country is in for. Be that as it may, I am not responsible for the figures. I took them from the speech made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Salford. We have this Parliamentary War Pensions Committee; it has worked well. In my view one solution, and I think the best, is along the lines of the admirable speech made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Paddington. We should have a strong Parliamentary War Pensions Committee, to which the Minister of Pensions could always refer matter of all kinds to help him, but a Parliamentary War Pensions Committee that will never for a moment allow the question of party politics to deflect them from their judgment in interpreting—because that is all they can do—the Royal Warrants which are the product of this House. That would be no interference with this House and would be a help to the House of Commons and a bulwark between that and any person or persons outside who wish to make the grievances of millions of gallant men who have served their country a great party issue which in the long run would not be to their interests, but in the intermediate stage would lead to chaos in the State. We are dealing with the future, with the possibilities and probabilities of the future. At the present moment we have, I believe, only some 400,000 discharged soldiers in the country, but we will have millions after the War. Before the War ends, in my view, we will have 1,500,000, and we ought now to make up our mind as to the principles and policy that will guide Members of Parliament.

    In my own view, and I think in the view of all of us, the interests of those men who have served and of the dependants who have been left behind, and the interests of the State and of the Empire, which are really greater than those of any individual class, can best be served by stopping now every party pension bureau and focussing our energy and attention upon this Parliamentary War Pensions Committee that has done so well in the past. If you have party pensions bureaux you are going to have party pensions literature, party pensions speakers, party pensions pledges on every platform in the country. You cannot help it. I am sorry to hear that anyone in this House wants this question of pensions to be made a party issue. We represent in this House three or four parties, but next election we may have six or seven parties, and the party that will be able to make the greatest appeal to soldiers and promise the largest pensions is the party of women. The wives and mothers and future wives and mothers will make promises of pensions vastly greater than any mere man would dare to utter. I say that that has been the experience of countries where women have the vote, but I do not want to be deflected from my main argument. If you have a party pensions bureau you get the whole trail of party machinery, party candidates, party pledges, and party promises from the platform of pensions to the soldiers and sailors. I deplore the possibility of that. I would like to see every man honestly and purely supporting the interests of the country and the men who have served and are serving.

    6.0 P.M.

    I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Pensions, whose courage and sympathy in this matter of pensions have left the cases which are unremedied comparatively negligible, not to recognise for a moment a single organisation dealing with pensions, outside the local war pensions committees. The local war pensions committees are the creatures of this House. We are responsible for them. We can add to them. We can alter their personnel. We can increase their powers—acting, of course, through the Minister of Pensions. I hope that he will accept from me that advice as sound advice. He has the power to refuse to acknowledge any party or other organisation, and I am sure that the majority of the House of Commons would back him in taking that stand and laying down a policy now. Personally I have been keenly interested in the welfare of soldiers all my life. If the House will pardon me for being personal, I may say that I ran away when a boy to become a soldier, and I am sorry that I did not stick to it, and not go in for politics. We have to remember that you have in the vast Armies now fighting and dying for England the pick of this country, everyone of whom is suffering not only physically but financially. So far, I have never met a man who has been in the Army who has not suffered financially, and whose people have also suffered financially by reason of his service to the country. I would impress upon the House that if there is to be just treatment of men, anything that is done must be done quickly, and where there is any doubt, err on the generous side, and let all act in unity through the Parliamentary War Pensions Committee, and also back up the Minister of Pensions. I hope that one result of this Debate will be that no personal question will enter into the laying down of the lines of a policy for the future, and I trust that the fundamental feature of that policy will be that no party pension bureau will be recognised by the State or encouraged by the House of Commons.

    The House has listened, as it always does, with interest to the hon. and gallant Member, and I think he has done good service in the way he has drawn attention to what is the real problem with which we are at this moment concerned. In regard to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, I think I am justified in pointing out that the House is not greatly concerned about reasons which led him to resign the secretaryship of a pensions committee. These personal matters are not of interest, and the House is concerned with something far more important than matters merely affecting individuals. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh laid down certain sound constitutional doctrines as to the possibilities and duties of Members of this House. I would be the last person to challenge the principles which he enunciated, and the only point to which I would return in this discussion was that which was so well made by my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington, when he asked the House to consider whether the result of the utilisation of party organisations would in the end inure to the benefit of the soldier rather than to the benefit of the party. Every Member I would like to think will share the view that party organisations are rather likely to fall into the temptation of advancing their own cause rather than having a single eye to the advantage of the men concerned. I was interested to hear the proposal or suggestion that was made by my hon. and gallant Friend, who, until lately, presided over the organisation, the Comrades of the Great War, and I think it is important for this House to consider what is going to be the ultimate action of the organisations over which my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh presides, and that over which recently presided my hon. and gallant Friend. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for East Edinburgh that it is, of course, impossible even if it were desirable—in my judgment it is not—to prevent the formation of any organisation to deal with the interests of discharged soldiers. That is neither desirable, or, if it were desirable, is it possible? But I do feel most strongly that it is not desirable to have complete organisations, who are bound to be under some temptation and in some danger of not acting with a single eye to the merits of the pension questions themselves. It is quite obvious that if there are two competing organisations, and one is the more active, then the other will indulge in similar activities that may not be wholly justified by the merits of the case, which they ought alone to consider. I should like to see public opinion use the weight of its influence, and Members of this House their persuasive powers, to induce these two societies to respond to the invitation thrown out by my hon. and gallant Friend, namely, that the Federation of Discharged Soldiers and the Comrades of the Great War should come together as a single society for the benefit of those men whose interests they both seek to serve. I refused to join either one or the other, for the same reason as my hon. and gallant Friend gave, until they do combine, because I feel that will be best in the interests of the men.

    It is perfectly clear to all of us who have followed this Debate that, in a sense, this Motion and the Amendment are not unopen to the charge of being academic. I would be the first to admit that, but at the same time let us be under no delusion, for it has an effective side to it, if we are to decide that this lies between three separate parties to this organisation or one Parliamentary organisation. I submit that my hon. and gallant Friend made the point perfectly clear when he said that the Amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh explicitly went for three parties as opposed to what is the general sense of the House, namely, a central Parliamentary Committee. We are all of us conscious that in this matter we are labouring under some difficulty, for this reason, that, as my hon. Friend who moved the Resolution pointed out, it is quite impossible to assess our obligations in terms of money. And there is, further, great danger to the national conscience of speaking and thinking only in terms of money. It is certainly necessary that you should have your money provisions on what I might call the basis of sufficiency, and I would go further and say the basis of generosity. It is also necessary that your administrative machinery should be as good and as rapidly worked as possible. In that connection I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman's attention to a point which I think cannot be emphasised too often, namely, the value and importance of giving all possible encouragement to voluntary work. The importance of voluntary work is that it is the best ally against the party political spirit. Your local work draws all parties and all sorts of people of both sexes, well known in their localities, into co-operation, and that more than any other thing, in my judgment, will keep the party political spirit out of the question of pensions. I do not know whether I am right in this, but I think I have noticed a certain tendency in some quarters to discourage voluntary work in favour of official work. If that be so, I think it is an injurious tendency, and one that is not in the interests of those who are concerned. I think I am not far wrong in saying that, on the whole, you want your administration and your Regulations—if they are to give satisfaction—very thoroughly tempered with humanity.

    Your cannot avoid your central regulation-making machine being rather on the side of the State or impersonal. That is unavoidable. But you can counteract that by giving all the encouragement you can to local voluntary work, so that the whole of this question will be managed in a way which will give it what is human about it without being sentimental. That is what I hope we shall have in the future. The fact is that the whole question of the future of pensions in this country, and the part which they will play in our political life, will depend upon how it is handled by the central administration. You may pass what Resolutions you will in this House, but unless the administration is good and meets with public approval you will never be able to resist pressure by people concerned. Therefore let every one of us, and let the Minister of Pensions—as the right hon. Gentleman does to-day—remember that this is first and foremost and last, for all time, a human question. Let us ask ourselves what the ordinary parent would do who was faced with a problem that faces the State to-day. What would the parent of means do, the parent who has imagination, and who is faced with the problem of trying to rebuild his-son in life, who has returied maimed from the War? Would not the first thing he would do would be to try to give again to his boy that which he had lost—courage, hope, and social life? Would he not try to show that boy that there are a great many fields open to him which at the first shock of his injury he hardly hoped or realised? That is what your wise parent with means would do, and that is what many wise parents without means would like to do for their sons, and that is what the State can do for the sons of parents who are not in a position to do it themselves. Therefore I should not be in order if I went further along that path beyond saying this, that I regard the work of the curative workshops and that sort of thing as being vitally connected with the whole question of pensions from the point of view of keeping it out of party politics, because if you develop all that properly and quickly you have got a chance of really preventing your problem getting too big. One more remark. I think the House would like to be reassured that on that vital matter the Ministry of Pensions, the War Office, and the Ministry of Labour are really working together. I could give the right hon. Gentleman——

    The hon. Member's one more remark is one too many. This is not the occasion to discuss the administration of the Departments.

    I apologise, Sir. I was led away by an encouraging smile from the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I only wanted to urge on the right hon. Gentleman that all these general questions have their bearing, and that only by considering the general principles and their practical application can we hope, in my judgment, that they are successfully to deal with the legacy of the War.

    I really must be careful not to smile if it is going to lead hon. Members to disregard the Orders of the House. The position of the Pensions Ministry and the problem being discussed to-day is a very simple one, and I personally regret that anything of a personal nature should have entered into the discussion. It appeared to me as I listened to my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) that in his case that it was discharge aggravated by service that was the principal offence. A charge was made against myself, as the hon. president of the British Workers' League, and I suppose the inference was that I gave preference to complaints from soldiers which came through that agency. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] I think that that was a fair inference. Let me say that in the early days of the War that organisation was a purely propaganda organisation, and it countered the pacifist tendencies of a certain section of the community. It was only recently that it became a political organisation. In the early stages my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary dealt with all the cases of that organisation, but the moment they became a political organisation running candidates I at once issued instructions that no more of their cases were to be dealt with. It appears to me that it would be a deplorable thing if party political organisations were formed for the purpose of taking up the grievances, real or alleged, of disabled soldiers. The disabled soldiers and sailors have their own organisations, which can very well look after the interests of the disabled men without taking the appearance of political quarrels.

    We do not refuse their cases, because of the fact that this House has set up local war pension committees. If they fail in their duty, I have never yet refused to take up a man's case, no matter where it came from, but he ought to utilise the machinery that Parliament has placed at his disposal before he applies to any other organisation. Of course, Members of Parliament have an inalienable right to voice the grievances of their constituents, but they have no right to act as the Press agents of the grievances of men from all over the country, and I think I have a right to resent that kind of thing. My desire is and has been to speed up the machinery so far as dealing justly with every grievance is concerned, and I say this, that grievances which arise or have arisen since I became Pensions Minister have been promptly dealt with. What have clogged the machine were the grievances of men discharged in 1914, 1915, and 1916, previous to the passing of the Barnes Warrant, and it must be remembered that the Barnes Warrant brought men in, so far as pensions were concerned, who under previous Warrants received nothing, so that it is only by the lapse of time that many men have had an opportunity of realising that they were entitled to something; and when a period of, say, two years has elapsed before a man makes a claim, in many instances you have got to reconstruct the whole case, and that of itself means a loss of time. My hon. Friend referred to Chelsea. I want to say this, that I knew that Chelsea was labouring as a result of a bad system—probably, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland (Colonel Sir H. Greenwood) said, because of the lack of vision. I have got one of the best organisers at my disposal there, who has reconstructed the whole system, and I venture to say that the work at Chelsea to-day is well done, and that there are very few mistakes. If my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) thinks that he can improve on this work, I shall be very glad of his assistance. I shall be very glad to give him every facility for the purpose of obtaining information, d of suggesting any means or any method whereby an improvement on present practice can be accomplished. I venture to say that the Pensions Ministry are not one of the hidebound Departments. I have rather been blamed for being bluff. I hate sealing wax and red tape, and I do not intend to be enmeshed in them. I would rather leave the position.

    Many things have been said with respect to the setting up of the Committee. May I say that, so far as the Pensions Bureau of this House is concerned, I have always been willing and ready to meet them and talk over any difficulty they had or any proposition they wished to make for the improvement of the present position. If the House has a non-party committee of that character I shall be perfectly willing to co-operate with them for the purpose of doing the best we can for those men who have suffered and sacrificed for you and for me, which is the best way of putting it. That is all my interest, so far as this particular matter is concerned. As a matter of fact, if you take, as an example, the funds that I have initiated for setting men up, I have made proposals to that bureau that I would be very glad of their co-operation in the administration as well as in the endeavour to get funds for the purpose of extending the work that we have been seeking to accomplish, and I am glad to say that only this morning I have received intimation of another donation of £25,000 to that fund. May I just further say that the attitude that I have assumed with respect to the War Pensions Bureau of the Liberal party I have assumed to the Labour party, the party to which I belong, as well as the British Workers' League. The letter, which we wrote in April last, was as follows:
    "With reference to your letter of the 19th ultimo, I am directed by the Ministry of Pensions to inform you that he is unable to deal with cases referred to this Department by a party organisation. Officers and their relatives should be advised to apply, in writing, to this office directly, and soldiers and their dependants to the local war pensions committees."
    All I desire to say is that I am going to stand by that, and I hope the House of Commons is going to back me up in that determination.

    There is one aspect of this question which I do not think has been very fully discussed to-day, although we have discussed a great many things that were hardly aspects of this question, if I may be pardoned for saying so. I do not think the American analogy threw much light on our present situation, and I am sure no one is more anxious than I am that anything approaching the American experience should not be felt in this country. There is one general proposition which I hold as strongly as any Member of the House, and that is that it would be a great misfortune if the question of the amount of pensions and the conditions of pensions became a matter of competition between parties. I think it is hardly possible, and the House will I think agree with me, for anyone who has twice made a sojourn at the Treasury not to be aware of the immense evils that would follow from any such situation as that, but that does not settle the question, nor does that have anything whatever to do with the Liberal Pensions Bureau. I noticed throughout this Debate that not a single charge of any improper action on the part of that bureau was made by any single speaker, and the reason is very simple, because no such charge could fairly be brought forward. Members are afraid of what may happen, but they are not complaining of anything that has happened. I am bound to point out to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions that, after all, if anything wrong has been done he set the example, because I have here the report for last year of the British Workers' League, of which he is president, and one of the paragraphs in that report is an advertisement or, not to use any offensive word, a statement, of what they have done, the number of cases they have dealt with, and their success in dealing with them, and also of the fact that they went very much beyond the Liberal Pensions Bureau because they went into policy, and they boast of what they have done in that direction.

    I could not altogether follow my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment, because he started by saying that he deprecated politicians and parties touching this matter. That was a consistent position if he had stopped there, but immediately after he said that he admitted that it was the inalienable right of Members of Parliament to voice the complaints of their constituents and to redress any grievance that their constituents had. It is quite impossible to keep politicians from touching this matter. After all, it is politicians who will have to decide the whole question. A number of us represent constituencies from which thousands of men have gone to the front. Their relatives write. Are we to say, "We cannot touch this thing; you must write to the Ministry of Pensions"?

    I am not suggesting the right hon. Gentleman said that. I am suggesting that would be the result if Members refused to touch the matter. I am bound to remind my right hon. Friend, in regard to one of the cases I sent to the Ministry, I received a reply two months afterwards to the effect that they had not been able to deal with it. This is an extremely complicated matter. I will acquit my right hon. Friend of having a liking for red-tape or sealing-wax, or anything else that is formal. I do not think my right hon. Friend's tendencies would lie in that direction, but rather, perhaps, over-violently in the other direction. But I think he will admit—and I am afraid it is in the nature of the case—that these Regulations and Warrants are extremely complicated affairs. No ordinary soldier could understand them if be read them, and the ordinary Member of Parliament finds the greatest difficulty in keeping himself informed and up to date in regard to them. What was the position presented to my mind? Here is my right hon. Friend setting an example by being president of an organisation which includes a pensions bureau. Here is the Labour party setting up a joint committee of trade unions with the Labour party to deal with this matter. It is quite impossible for individual Members to deal with complexities of this class. And for what purpose was the Liberal Pensions Bureau set up? For the purpose of getting technical advice about these cases. It is not an organisation to ask for larger pensions, or even to reform the system. It is an organisation to advise Members of Parliament rather what the rights of individuals are in particular cases. I quite understand deprecating the making of pensions, the amount of pensions, the conditions of pensions, a matter of party competition. But what is the harm of having an organisation to which you can go and say, "Here is a case. Is this man right in his complaint? What is the position of this case under the Warrant?" That is all that the Liberal bureau has done.

    No, and the Liberal bureau have no intention of setting up an election campaign. My hon. Friend who moved this Motion admitted that there had been cases of maladministration, as he put it, and non-effective administration. I am using his words. Undoubtedly there have been cases where the person affected could not obtain satisfactory information from the local committees. There are many cases of that sort, and it is common ground that it is not only the right but it is the duty of a Member of Parliament to deal with these cases. Is he to deal with them on adequate information or inadequate information? We thought it would be better to deal with them on adequate information. My hon. Friend and former colleague made a suggestion which I think might be very well Considered, that there should be a committee of all parties who might deal with these matters. But that has not come into being yet in the sense in which my hon. Friend proposes. I am very glad to hear my right hon. Friend has been impartial, and that he refuses to recognise his own organisation as well as the Liberal organisation. That, at any rate, is a very proper attitude for him to assume, but, still, his name appears as president, and I cannot help thinking his position at the present time is somewhat inconsistent and a little open to criticism. Let us reduce this thing to proper proportions. I should be the last person to defend making this a matter of party competition. I hope it never will be. But you cannot prevent individual candidates from making it a matter of party competition, and I hope those who have influence with all the parties will try to discountenance that so far as possible, because one of our greatest tasks after the War will be to adjust our diminished resources to all the various and very urgent claims which will be made upon them. But I cannot see what crime has been committed by the setting up of a bureau to interpret extremely complicated matters, and to enable Members of Parliament, who have an admitted duty to deal with these matters, to deal with them intelligently and with full and adequate knowledge.

    Let me say at the outset that the very small part I am going to take in this Debate I do not take as representing the Government, for this is a Motion for the House of Commons to consider, and I would like to say, with reference to a suggestion which was made by a previous speaker, that the Leader of the House had given this day for some reason because of something which was done by the pensions committee to which my right hon. Friend has referred, that that is not the case. I agreed to give a day for the simple reason that a very large number of Members signed a petition and desired that the subject should be discussed. That is the reason, and the sole reason, so far as I am concerned. Let me say further, that I had no idea that this Debate this afternoon could possibly take even so much of a party complexion as it has taken, and, personally, in anything I say, and in anything the House of Commons does this afternoon, I think we should try to look at the question on its merits, and without any reference to what has been done by one party or the other party in the present, but to consider what we ought to do in the future with regard to this matter. My right hon. Friend who has been, as he said, twice at the Treasury, began his, speech by pointing out that nothing could be worse—not only from a Treasury point of view, but, I am sure, from the point of view of the House of Commons, the country and the men affected—than that claims of this kind should be treated from the party point of view. I am quite sure we are all agreed about that.

    I can quite understand how an organisation such as that to which my right hon. Friend referred has grown up. The ordinary party machinery is not working, fortunately. It is, perhaps, beginning to work a little more than in the earlier stages of the War. One does not like to see it. At all events, it is not working in full blast. It is quite natural, whilst the War is going on, that one should say, "Why should we not use the machinery for giving information on these very technical points?" I quite understand, but it really cannot end there, and I am sure my right hon. Friend will agree it cannot end there when we come back to the ordinary party-fighting in this country. I think it must be quite evident to everyone that, in that case, if it is a recognised portion of the machinery of any political party to deal with pensions and to say, not as a Member of Parliament dealing with his own constituency, but as a political party appealing to the country, to get returned and gain power, that they are going to deal with this, it must be most disastrous in its general effect. It really cannot be otherwise, and I do think the case is made stronger, and, perhaps, in one sense, it is rather a good thing, that my right hon. Friend should be pilloried as having taken a wrong step in this direction. It is not a mistake made by one or the other. It is this question: Are we in the future going to have a subject which will affect every constituency in the country, which will affect immense masses in the country, and a subject in regard to which the sympathy of every man, woman, and child will be on the side of these men who are making these claims—are we going to have that used as a means of getting one party or another into power in this country? [HON. MEMBERS: No!"] If we do, I have not the slightest doubt that we shall start one of the most demoralising things that has ever been seen.

    An hon. Member—I forget who it was—suggested that the party to which I belong would not have the ability to get a proper scheme of this kind. We have been called a stupid party, but I do not think we would be so stupid that we would not be able to get up a proper machinery to make an election campaign out of that if we tried. I have been now a party leader for seven years. I have tried to win. I was not successful. Our party never came into power. I cannot imagine anything that would be more repugnant to me than to use this as a means of trying to gain power. I think it would be abominable. That is really all I want to say. I am not finding fault with what has been done up to now. What my right hon. Friend has said shows that, in his heart, he agrees with me. He knows that if once you have these machines setup as part of a party organisation they will be used for party purposes. He knows as well as I do that nothing could be worse, and I think what the House of Commons ought to do is to put the thing on a higher level than recriminations as to what has been done up to now, to look to the future, to recognise the evil in front of us, and by clear indication, by carrying this Resolution—which does not contain a word to which I should think anyone can object—to show that the House of Commons is determined, so far as it can, to keep the question at least out of the arena of ordinary party politics.

    I think we are really dealing with a very thorny and difficult question, and we certainly have not got to the bottom so far. I am convinced that there is no Member of this House who desires in the interests of some political purpose to exploit the grievances of discharged men. If he does, he does a very mean and contemptible action indeed. At the same time, Members of this House are bound to recognise that many of these men have grievances that must be raised in this House, and, therefore, every grievance of a soldier is a political question. It will be very difficult indeed to maintain the line of division between what is a political question and preventing that question becoming an issue between various political parties. Even if it is done nationally, and the evil is avoided nationally, this is bound to arise time and again, with two or three candidates presenting themselves locally, that an organisation of soldiers comes to them with various proposals and says, "Are you prepared to support this or are you not prepared to support this?" One candidate says "Yes"; one candidate says "No." The issue has become not only a political issue, but it has become a party issue between the parties in these various districts. How is that going to be prevented?

    How is it going to be done by passing any such pious Resolution? We have not touched the very fringe of this question. We have not got to grips with the question at all, and there the real issues are. No one doubts for a minute that there are very real grievances in regard to discharged men. I received notice to-day from Sheffield of two disused pig-styes on a piece of vacant land, without water or sanitary accommodation of any kind, occupied by the families of two discharged soldiers, one including two children. These matters are bound to come up for consideration and discussion. It is true they ought not to be made a matter as between parties. It ought to be a common matter. But if that is going to be done we have to build up the proper machinery by which it can be done. That is really the problem that confronts Members of Parliament. How are you going to ensure fair, just, and impartial administration of all these questions without bringing them into the arena of ordinary party politics? If there is unfairness or injustice done to the soldiers it is right that Members of Parliament should take up the question, even if it involves division and cleavage between the parties, and the only safeguard is the adequate and just administration of the whole question by the Government itself. If some machinery could be devised by which fair and legitimate pressure from all sides, and of no party character, having no party motive and no desire to advance one party as against the other—I agree that is a matter which ought to be avoided—that might be attempted; but until we have done that we have not solved the problem, and neither the Resolution nor the Amendment, nor both together, would really get rid of the real difficulty at all. Again and again in local elections the grievances of municipal employés are raised in precisely the same way in regard to wages and other matters, and they very often tend to become a matter of conflict between parties. The same things are going to arise here. If some wide and representative Committee could be appointed to consider how best the matter can be lifted above party decision and be placed on the rock of justice and fair dealing, it might get us out of the difficulty, but we are not going to get out of it merely by the passing of a Resolution which leaves the whole matter precisely where it was before.

    Like many others who have spoken, I feel an intense abhorrence to the idea that we should split ourselves up into political parties, and say, We Liberals will look after the Liberal dependants of discharged men, and we Conservatives will look after our Conservatives, and we Labour men will look after our Labour men. I certainly hold the view very strongly that it is the duty of all men of all parties to unite and co-operate in order to secure justice and proper administration for soldiers and sailors and their dependants, whatever party they belong to, without discrimination. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wood) expressed very properly the feeling that Members of this House ought to have at their disposal some machinery whereby they could get information on these complicated matters which arise in connection with pensions, but he forgot that such machinery was in existence in the shape of the Parliamentary War Pensions Bureau, and that he and his Friends who have started the Liberal Bureau could have got from the Parliamentary War Pensions Bureau not only the same information, but from actually the very same man who is now at the head of their organisation. Therefore, I think the right hon. Gentleman must admit that he has not advanced his argument very far by pointing out that they have started this organisation in order to obtain that information. The genesis of this new political pensions organisation has been frankly disclosed by the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge), because it is perfectly plain that if in that conversation he claims to have had with the Leader of the House he had been offered a certain post in the Government he would not have been the mainspring of this new organisation; and, further, if he had been re-elected as hon. secretary of the non-party Parliamentary War Pensions Bureau, he would have stuck to the non-party system and would not be advocating the splitting up of parties.

    The Amendment was seconded by an hon. Member (Mr. Henderson), with whom I have rather a greater quarrel, because he said he considers that the Parliamentary War Pensions Bureau, with which I have been connected ever since its formation, had behaved in a shabby manner. That being so, I think it perhaps only right that I should put on record exactly what happened at the meeting in question, when the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) was not re-elected. It was on the 5th December, 1917, after the bureau had been working about a year and a half, and it was the first annual meeting and the second election of officers. The then chairman, the hon. Member (Sir Ellis Griffith), a Liberal, insisted on resigning, and on the proposal of another Liberal, the hon. Member for Sunderland, still another Liberal, the hon. Baronet for Doncaster (Sir C. Nicholson), was proposed as secretary, in addition to the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge). Finally, the hon. Baronet (Sir C. Nicholson) was elected by twenty-four votes, the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge) only securing eight votes. That was out of a meeting of some seventy or eighty Members of the House, of all parties. It was not a party vote, some Conservatives—one I can remember in particular—voting in the minority for the hon. Member (Mr. Hogge), who was elected on the Committee but refused to serve, and, by a strange coincidence, very shortly after became an advocate of introducing politics into pensions, which he has endeavoured to support now.

    To leave all that, it seems to me that the real question which is before us is this: Are Members of all parties going to co-operate for the good of the discharged soldier and sailor and their dependants? Are we going to work solely and unselfishly for their good, or are we going to compete with each other not solely for the benefit of the discharged men or dependants but with one eye very much open to the main chance, with part of our energies devoted not to the good of the men and their dependants but of our own political party? That is the choice we have to make. Are we going to co-operate unselfishly on a high level or are we going to compete selfishly and on a low level? If we compete there must be a great deal of overlapping, there must be three, four, five, or six committees all doing work which could be done by one, there must be a large number of men paid quite unnecessarily and a great deal of money must be wasted which could be devoted to very much better purposes. If we adopt the system of competition, no matter how good the motives may be of those who favour it, certain logical sequences must follow. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wood) said no specific charges had been brought as to what had been done up to now. Certainly not. It would be very remarkable if, after this short period, anyone could say, You have done this or that which is absolutely wrong. But when people take certain steps logical sequences follow, and it is inevitable that if first one party and then another start these political information bureaux they must advance from giving information and must go on to take action in regard to administration. That has been the history of the non-party Parliamentary bureau. We found we had to come to exerting pressure on Ministers, and we did it very efficaciously.

    7.0 P.M.

    The next step to that will be that the political agents all over the country will get busy and will introduce into every constituency a competition to secure on their register the names of people whose cases they have dealt with. After all, it is not the job of a political agent to discriminate between good and bad cases. His job would be to get cases, good, bad, and indifferent, on the books of his organisation and to pass them up to headquarters and get them pressed and exert any political influence he may possibly have, and the less scrupulous among them might very easily drop dark hints of a political "pull." The object of all this would be to establish a sort of moral obligation upon the electors who have availed themselves of these facilities—an obligation which could be repaid by votes at election time. To my mind that seems an absolutely logical sequence. It is a terrible thing to think that the men who have fought for us, and their widows and children, should be put in the position that they cannot exercise their adherence to the political party with which their sympathies lie because they have been got at perhaps by the political agent of some rival party, who, having once obtained their names on his register, says, "My party did this or that for you in regard to your pension, and now an election is coming on we ask for your political support." That can only lead to a lowering of political life; it also has its dangers in regard to corruption. If there was one political party sufficiently strong and there were a Pensions Minister sufficiently weak, it might lead to grave results. And for what good? For what advantage? In order that one political party may benefit over another! On behalf of the soldiers and sailors and their dependants I plead that we tonight shall register our belief in placing pensions upon a high standard, not only financially but morally, recognising that this is a national duty to be discharged by all of us in friendly cooperation, unselfishly, and without any axe of our own to grind or any idea of benefiting any particular political party.

    The hon. Member who last spoke has given us a very interesting narrative of what took place at the meeting of the Parliamentary War Pensions Bureau at the time of the retirement of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). I am a supporter of that bureau, and I do not remember ever having been invited to attend that particular meeting. But what interests me about it is this, that the bureau was unfortunate enough to lose the services of the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, of whom of all Members of this House it may be said that he really rendered great service in this matter. It is for that reason I very much regret his departure from the non-party bureau to become the secretary of a party bureau. I deprecate that tendency with every possible strength that I can bring to bear on the question. I have not the slightest doubt—none of us can doubt, from what we know of those Members of this House who are connected with the Liberal bureau, that the intentions of that organisation are to promote the best interests of soldiers and sailors. But still I would very respectfully suggest it is unfortunate to depart from the non-party attitude in this national matter and to make the pensions a question that may quite easily excite rivalry between political organisations. My right hon. Friend the Member for St. Rollox (Mr. McKinnon Wood) has indeed given us to understand that that has already happened. I understood him to read from a pamphlet issued by the British Workers' League an extract which appeared to amount to a claim that the league had achieved certain great successes in the matter of securing pensions for its friends. The extract went so far as to contrast the achievements of the league with those of other parties. If this is being done surely we are already on the brink of an unhappy position which every Member of this House must of necessity deprecate. Already, if I understood the right hon. Gentleman rightly, one political party in the State is beginning to claim advantages over other political parties in respect of a question which ought to be, and which we should all strive to make, a purely national question. My right hon. Friend said that after all we politicians will have to settle this question. No doubt while we, as politicians representing the people of this country, may have to settle this question, we should not do so through our party political machinery. It is a totally different thing for a Member of this House acting through the House of Commons to consider this question and for him to get it settled through his political organisation in competition with another political organisation.

    Members of this House have every reason to congratulate themselves on the fact that in process of time they have been denuded of every kind of political patronage. There was a time when Members of this House had offices of profit in their gift and were able to make nominations for them. But one thing after another of this kind has disappeared, and ever since I have been a Member of this House we have been striving to remove ourselves from any connection with appointments of justices of the peace, and committees have been set up to settle that question in the respective districts, very much to our advantage and convenience. I may, too, remind the House that uot many years ago, when a very important Bill was before us—I refer to the National Health Insurance Bill—which involved the necessity for appointing a very large number of people—hon. Members petitioned the Minister in charge of the Bill to lay it down as a rule that no appointment should be made to his Department on the recommendation of politicians. I remember the circulars which were issued by the Department to that effect, and I know I had the pleasure of sending quite a number of them to ardent and reputable political supporters of my own, who sought appointments under the Act. In my opinion, it was a wise step for Members to take, to denude themselves of the chance of exercising political influence in matters which have nothing whatever to do with politics. Nothing could be more unfortunate than that we Members of this House should be found in the constituencies competing one with another, wrangling and wangling over the question of pensions. This question of pensions is a sacred and honourable charge on all the Members of this House, and, indeed, on the whole of this great community. Let us, therefore, keep it removed as far as possible from the arena of party politics. Experienced politicians in this House have had large and, in some cases, uncomfortable experience in elections. We all know, to put it frankly, that we cannot trust our political machine in a matter of this kind, and we must all of us strive to keep the subject quite apart from any connection with our party struggles.

    May I say that as a Liberal I heartily agree with what has fallen from the last speaker. I, too, am very sorry that the Member for East Edinburgh had to withdraw from the non-party bureau.

    However that may be, I understand he did a lot of good work, and, therefore, I regard it as a very regrettable circumstance he should have severed his connection with it. At the same time, after having listened to what he said this afternoon, I must express my regret that he has taken the personal line he has done, as he must thereby have withdrawn from himself a good deal of the sympathy which otherwise his position must have evoked. With regard to the general question, I honestly believe that a large amount of the difficulty surrounding this question will disappear, and disappear quickly, for this reason: If the local pensions committees will do their work thoroughly, if they will thrash out all the questions that come before them, there will be very little for any political party, or anybody else, to do. At the present time, in many constituencies, there is a well-organised and active local pensions committee doing its work thoroughly and well. I quite agree, and I am sure no one can say it is wrong, that if a local pensions committee finds any particular difficulty which it cannot solve, it is right and proper it should communicate with the Member for the constituency and ask him to bring the matter to the notice of the Minister for Pensions. That is a proper relationship which should always be maintained as between a Member and his constituency, and it is a relationship which does not affect the pensions question alone—it affects a hundred other matters which are sent up here to be dealt with because the difficulty cannot be solved locally. In that direction you have a proper arena for the intervention of the Member for the division, but we do want to prevent the party organisation being brought in for the purpose. With reference to what has taken place in regard to the pensions bureau set up by the Liberal party, I feel certain that it was a mistake to start it. I am sorry that the Liberals did start it, because they thereby copied a very bad example set by another party in this House, and if that sort of thing goes on we may have further imitations endangering the breaking of the political truce which now exists. I agree that as soon as you have the party organisations brought into the matter the question will immediately become one of party propaganda, and we shall have all the parties competing one with another. One of the speakers just now suggested that we should be faced at election time with organisations connected with the soldiers and sailors, who would demand to know how we were going to vote on these questions. But, after all, that is only the ordinary experience of everyone who aspires to represent his fellow countrymen. We already have temperance and other organisations asking us whether or not we will support their particular views, and if a Parliamentary candidate honestly wants to do his duty by his country he explains his views to those people, and it is open to them to support him, or otherwise, as they think fit. If, therefore, we have organisations connected with the soldiers and sailors taking the same course, we have no right to object. Indeed, I would rather meet an organisation of soldiers and sailors worked by themselves than a licenced victuallers' organisation or anything of that sort. When those questions are put, one deals with them like any other question that crops up at an election time. What we object to, and what I hope the result of this Debate will be, is that all parties will consent to drop party in connection with this subject. If you are to have any organisation above the local pensions committees, then we might have a Parliamentary Committee formed as fairly as it can be. In my own experience I have never had to go to any bureau. I have tried to keep in touch with the local pensions committees, and when any case of difficulty has occurred I have put, the matter before the Pensions Ministry. They have always done their best to get the matter settled, not because I have done it, but because they wish to get the work done. I want to pay my tribute to the energy and the rapidity, in face of an enormous mass of work, which has gone on accumulating every week, with which they have straightened these matters out. I do not want to depreciate what other hon. Members have done, but I believe if hon. Members would get more into contact with their own local pensions committee, and then, if they find difficulties arise, submit them to the Minister of Pensions, they will find it better than consulting any political pensions bureau.

    I should like to associate myself with the concluding remark of the hon. Member who has just sat down, and to state publicly that I have no complaints whatever to make either in reference to the War Office or the Pensions Department as to the way they have done their work, for they have done their best and given every reasonable attention to the cases put before them. I have, however, listened to this Debate with some degree of curiosity, because all through it there seems to have been something undisclosed, something that has not been said, but upon which this Debate itself is built. For instance, the Mover of the Motion never spoke about the Resolution, but he gave us a dissertation upon America, and what happened there, and he emphasised this by saying that the English people were honest. The Seconder of the Motion gave us an address on the possibility of a better administration, but neither of those hon. Gentlemen dared to face the Motion which they have placed upon the Paper. It seems to me that the hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge), by some means or other, by some organisation in this House or outside, has obtained a certain amount of credit which some other people think is a little more than he is entitled to. I wish to say that, whatever credit stands in a public sense to the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, he has earned every ounce of it; and in addition to that, I say that since the hon. Member took up this matter he has changed the attitude of a number of hon. Members who were entirely of the opposite opinion before his intervention in a public sense in regard to this question. For instance, many hon. Members gaily voted for Conscription, and it was to be all-round-jolly-well everybody, but when the hon. Member for East Edinburgh began to call attention to the effect of calling up this and that class of men, that appealed to public sentiment, and there was quite a change in the attitude of those hon. Members. Now, when fresh Regulations have been brought in, hon. Members will not wait for twenty-four hours lest the hon. Member for East Edinburgh should have a question on the Paper to raise the matter, and so they raised the question themselves by giving Private Notice. This eagerness did not find expression in days gone by, and you would almost imagine that there was no organisation existing.

    Some hon. Members who have been speaking about having no relationship with these organisations I find do belong to outside organisations—in fact, they are presidents of some of them—and they go from one part of the country to another attending public meetings, where they point out with zest that Parliament must be urged to stand up for the rights of the men they are addressing. A Motion like this may be a refuge and a hiding place, but it in no wise alters the facts of the situation, and it does not affect the Federation of Soldiers and Sailors led by the hon. Member for East Edinburgh, or the Comrades of the Great War, which has been referred to by my hon. Friend, and supported largely by the hon. Member for Sunderland. I should not like to think that the hon. Member for West Sal-ford wanted to do anything but what was the right and proper thing, but a good many of the addresses we have had this afternoon on political influence seem to leave me really cold, because some of those who have taken part in the Debate have been very prominent in other directions in relation to soldiers and sailors. If we are to be so pure and unblemished, as some hon. Members would like to picture, then there are other organisations to include besides the Liberal Pensions Bureau under our special consideration, and it would mean that a large number of hon. Members would have to sever their connection with outside organisations.

    Personally, I feel that the Motion is not really directed against the real thing it purports to represent, but it is purely a party attack upon what they consider a party bureau, which was brought into existence for general guidance. I speak rather independently of those associations because I have never used any of them. I have not used the Liberal Pensions Bureau, the Comrades of the Great War, or the Federation of Soldiers and Sailors, but I know that their officials undertake cases and put themselves into direct communication with the Minister of Pensions, and they tell their people that they will get these things settled. I have consulted directly with the Department concerned on these matters, and therefore these organisations are of no assistance to me, because I feel that I have a duty to perform between my Constituents and the Departments interested in these particular matters about which they inquire. Personally, I feel that the House would be well advised to allow matters to stand where they are, and that this matter should not go very much further than it has done.

    I hope the House will not listen to the concluding words of the hon. Member who has just sat down, and let this matter remain where it is now. I think it is necessary that we should take steps to put an end to all political work in connection with the question of pensions. I spoke strongly on this point when the Ministry of Pensions Bill was going through this House, and I have been looking up what I said on the subject at that time. I know that I raised the question of keeping pensions free from all political influence, and I am sorry that I did not get any support whatsoever from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill (Mr. A. Henderson). I said:

    "The right hon. Gentleman has given us no indication that he is prepared to deal with this question or that he sympathises with our views. In fact, he laughs at the matter."
    I thought that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Barnard Castle (Mr. Henderson) would have been here to give us his opinion on this subject, and I was anxious to see what Lobby he would go into on this question. He laughed then at the idea that any political influence would be brought to bear, and the result has been the Debate to which we have just listened. I cordially agree with the Mover and Seconder of this Resolution, and I trust that real and earnest steps will be taken to remove all political influence from this question. I look forward with horror to being asked by this organisation or that to vote for an increase of pension for this or that class. We must have some absolutely impartial tribunal, free from all political connection whatsoever.

    It seems that in this Motion there are two conflicting standpoints, that of the State and that of the pensioner or the widow of the man who has fallen, and it depends altogether upon which standpoint you take as to the conclusion you will come to on this question. From the standpoint of the State it may be important, and it is important, that pensioners should not join together or form a party, and if they do it will be called a political party. The first point I put is this, that from the standpoint of the State it is bad. Secondly, I would ask from the standpoint of the pensioner, is it bad? Personally I object strongly to the State being exploited in this way. In municipalities where there are a large number of municipal employés they are partly masters of the situation through their votes, authough they are servants of the municipality, but being part masters and part servants, they use their position to increase the wages they get from the corporation. I object to it; but if any body of men in this country are entitled to join together to see that proper pensions are paid after the War, surely it is the widows and orphans of the men who have fallen in this War, and nobody is more entitled than them. At the present time when they go to any Government office concerned they are met cordially and perhaps received with courtesy, but looking forward to a time after the War I am rather anxious lest a widow should be treated with some such reply as this, "It does not come within a certain section," and the Departments will not be interested to give the woman as much as they can, but to give her as little as they can. How are these people to act?

    I suggest that they are entitled to band themselves together. I think from their own point of view they would be almost wicked not to band themselves together in order to see that they get adequate pensions, and get them at the proper and the regular time. The House is aware that in connection with workmen's compensation cases there are large trade unions, and what is the result? Hon. Members may say, "Why does not each man go on his own and apply for compensation?" The reason is it is too expensive. In this matter the Government is in the position of the employer. How are pensioners to fight for their rights unless they combine together? If they combine together, what is the result? An individual case is taken which may settle a hundred claims instead of the claims of a hundred individuals being settled separately and perhaps differently. They are, therefore, entitled to combine together, and, seeing that they are entitled to combine together, how are they to operate? After all, a vote in this House can only be effective if you can get a majority for it. If you only get a minority, the vote is not carried. A man is only elected if he can get a majority. These men, at the time of an election, have to see as far as they can that Members are returned to this House who will see that they will get adequate pensions, that they are always received with consideration, and that nothing is done to hamper or to hinder them. I do not say that they ought to support this or that body, but those men, if any men, have a right to combine together to get the most that they can out of their empoyer, the State. The widows and the children and the wounded men have a perfect right to combine together, and no matter what we may do in this House these people will support—I do not say this party or that party—the party that will see that they are adequately and properly rewarded. I do not care for the Motion that has been put down. From the point of view of the State, the Motion is a good one, but from the point of view of the men I say, "Organise, and when the War is over see that the good feeling that has been shown during the War continues."

    The few Members who have listened to my hon. Friend who has just sat down will agree that the speech which he has delivered, unlike others, has, at least, some relation to the realities of the situation. So far as our discussion this afternoon and the Motion to which we are speaking have any reality, they constitute a vote of censure upon my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge). Otherwise, the Motion is simply the expression of a pious platitude which will have absolutely no effect upon the course of future political events. We have had a great deal of discussion of the history of politics in pensions and of the genesis of this particular Motion, but after all that has been said there are a certain number of points that are still obscure. The hon. Member for Salford (Sir M. Barlow) gave a very flattering testimonial to my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh, and, after it, my hon. Friend might very well ask why he was kicked downstairs. The hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Pennefather), who is a great pundit on the Parliamentary Pensions Committee, also endeavoured to elucidate the history, but all that he could point out was that it was a Liberal who nominated the successful competitor of my hon. Friend, the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Sunderland (Sir Hamar Greenwood). I think that possibly offers a clue. There are today two organisations appealing to and consisting of discharged soldiers and sailors. One of these associations is largely identified with my hon. Friend the Member for East Edinburgh. It was acquiring great strength in the country, and many fears were expressed as to the effects of its activities. Straightway a rival organisation was formed, patronised by Ministerial M.P.'s—I am not talking about Liberals or Conservatives—and supported by funds which are used very largely by way of largesse. It was in the interests of these rival organisations that the movement was engineered on the Parliamentary Pensions Committee to evict my hon. Friend from his post. It was done secretly. No notice was given to anybody that there would be any opposition to my hon. Friend when he stood for re-election. He happened to have an engagement in the country at the time of the meeting, and in his absence, without notice, although he had really been the founder of the bureau, he was ejected from it, and that is what hon. Members in this House have euphemistically described as his withdrawal from the committee. It seems to me that my hon. Friend was right in regarding that as a political move. It was a political move, and it is the utmost cant and hypocrisy for the hon. Member for Salford, the hon. Member opposite, and all the other hon. Members representing that bureau, to say that there was no political motive inspiring that action. Why therefore clothe ourselves in cant? We have the British Workers' League, which has already been referred to on two occasions to-day. I have in my hand the report of that institution, and I wish to read this striking paragraph:

    "The Naval and Military Information and Advice Bureau, inaugurated is August, 1916, has dealt with considerably over 2,000 applications with reference to pensions, separation allowances, final settlements, and other difficulties experienced by soldiers and sailors and their dependants and friends. Over 900 pensions or increases have been obtained for men who had served their country at the expense of their health and limbs and who had been discharged with no pension at all or a miserable pittance obviously inadequate. Several hundred cases have been dealt with where there was delay in receiving separation allowances, or where the amount was inaccurate. Seven families can boast of roofs over their heads, thanks to our successful efforts, when landlords or their agents were threatening eviction. The scandal of pensions maladministration was getting so acute in the autumn of 1916 that the committee decided to inaugurate a campaign to demand seven definite reforms. These were embodied in our 'Broken Warriors' Petition of Rights,' but, as signatures were rapidly coming in the late Government fell—"
    The late Government was guilty of all these things—
    "and with a prospect of more humane treatment for broken heroes, the committee did not press the campaign. It is satisfactory to know that practically all our demands are met in the Warrant now before Parliament. This is a definite result of which the league may be well pleased; and thanks are due for the loyal cooperation of our branch secretaries, many of whom have spent a great deal of time they could ill-afford in this great and worthy cause."
    The president of the organisation that issues this report is the Pensions Minister (Mr. Hodge). The vice-president is the hon. Gentleman who is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller (Sir L. Chiozza Money). Another hon. Gentleman connected with the organisation is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Local Government Board (Mr. Walsh). There are three members of the Ministry, three office bearers, associated with the political organisation making this appeal, and yet we have the Leader of the House to-day getting up and talking cheap political morality about political influences in connection with pensions. If that is the view of the Government, why does he not get his colleagues in the Government out of this base and immoral institution? If he does not do it, he has no right to vote for this Motion. If he fails to do it and he does vote for this Motion, his action is sheer hypocrisy. This is not the first time that we have had politics in connection with soldiers' pensions. I remember the South African War. I remember the election of 1900. We are going to have a repetition of the 1900 election in November this year. We are going to have another khaki election. How was it done then? How was the Soldiers' and Sailors' Families Association exploited for the purposes of that election? Everybody who had anything to do with the election in that year knows the extent to which candidates, mainly of the Conservative party, used that association which was distributing bounties to the dependants of soldiers and sailors for the purpose of obtaining votes. Yet we have members of that party to-day holding up their hands in horror at the idea of soldiers' pensions being exploited for party purposes. There is an instance fresh in our minds. It is only a few days since that we had a Vote of Credit in this House. On the first day of the discussion on that Vote of Credit an arrangement was made to break in on the general Debate. Who was to break in? The Leader of the Labour party. What was the subject? Increased separation allowances for the dependants of soldiers and sailors. It was nicely arranged. There was a Ministerial reply arranged that a Cabinet Commitee was to consider the matter. The following week there was a meeting of the Labour party, and a resolution was passed thanking the leader of the party for the success of his efforts in pressing the question of increased separation allowances upon the Government. The people who were parties to all these things now express their horror at exploiting the interests of the soldiers and sailors for political purposes.

    Let the hon. Members who have put this Motion down withdraw it from the Paper. Let them show some sense of reality, and do not let them stand in this hypocritical attitude. Nobody will be deceived. The people outside are not such fools as to believe that a Resolution of this kind is going to do anything, nor are they going to believe all these professions about political morality. It is merely a pious Resolution You cannot get a Regulation under the Defence of the Realm Act to enforce it. It is not one of the things which come under that very far-reaching and wide-spreading measure. I have no doubt that some hon. Members would be very glad if they could pray in aid the Defence of the Realm Act, but a Resolution of this House is going to have no effect. Undoubtedly after this War the whole question of the scale of pensions and of the administration of pensions is going to bulk largely in elections. We cannot avoid it. You have taken the greater part of the adult manhood of the country into the Army. You have ruined many of them. Apart from bodily suffering, there are men who will never be restored to the positions which they formerly occupied in civil life. There is no provision for these men. Do not you think that they will demand it, these men whom you have taken into the Army, whom you had no right to take, men who were never fit to become soldiers, men whom you have ruined, and men who will never get back to their old positions in life? There is no provision for them in any Pensions Warrant. A form is sent down to the local pensions committee saying, "This man's disability is not attributable to or aggravated by his service. He was inadequately examined."

    I have already ruled that those matters are not relevant either to the Motion or to the Amendment.

    I thought that it was always allowable to take a single illustration to prove a case. It is the only illustration that I intended to use to prove that politics cannot be eliminated. It was a case which, up to the present time, had not been dealt with, and I am surely entitled to say that, if it is not dealt with, it is undoubtedly going to be the cause of making this Resolution nugatory. I have no desire to amplify it further. I have put the case, and I think it is a fair argument on behalf of the position I am taking up. I have certainly no desire to trespass on any Rule of this House, but the case I was putting was a great deal more relevant than a discussion of the iniquities of the American pension system since the Civil War. If we had been passing a resolution of censure upon the American authorities, some of the speeches we have had to-day would have been quite in order. However, I will not pursue that subject. Everybody is aware that there are powerful organisations representing the discharged men which are now at work in this country, and that those organisations are competing with one another. I have had some association with one of them, and I have on every occasion advised this particular organisation to have no connection whatever with any political party, because, personally, I do not know with which political party I shall be associated. At the present moment nobody knows what political parties there are going to be in existence in the future. Liberal means nothing nowadays, Conservative means nothing, Unionist means nothing, and Labour means nothing. We are in a state of flux. But whenever parties can be reformed, it is as certain as anything can be that one of the questions which will largely affect the success of parties and the formation of parties will be this very question of the treatment of the discharged man, and of the dependants of those who have made the great sacrifice in this War.

    Why should it be such a heinous sin for these people who have risked all for their country to try to get the best they can? You have had various classes of workers coming to this House and seeking for minimum wages. We have already had an auction of the minimum wage for agricultural labour—for people who have not gone to the War at all. You have had the Government giving 12½ per cent. to the munition workers. Is not that a political move? You will have all sorts of other classes making use of political influence for the purpose of improving their economic position, and you will have political parties competing against each other for the support of these people. Is it the intention, or, if it is the intention, can it possibly be the effect of a Resolution of this House to lay a ban upon the actions of this the most deserving class of the community? These are the considerations to be faced. I am firmly of opinion that, whether you pass it or not, it will make no difference. It is not going to affect the action of the British Workers' League. It is not going to affect the action of the Labour party under the inspiration of the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden), and it is not going to abolish the Liberal party's pension bureau. Indeed, the Liberal party has little enough now in the way of political assets, and in these circumstances it would be suicidal for them to adandon this action. If you passed a hundred Resolutions, it would be futile to expect them to discard it. What is the question for this House? The underlying motive in this Resolution is that if political action becomes operative it will introduce into this country a far-reaching, deep-rooted, widespread system of corruption, such as never before existed. I believe it is that which has inspired all the copybook maxims of morality we have heard this afternoon. Has this House clean hands in the matter? A question was put to the Prime Minister the other day as to how many Members of this House had received titles or offices since this Government came into existence, and the answer was that there were 288. It does not seem to me to lie with the House, 288 of whose Members have received what I may call inducements of that kind, to pass platitudinously righteous Resolutions regarding the possible corruptibility of the heroes who have fought for us. I desire respectfully to ask the House to face the facts. It is surely worth our while to be quite honest both with ourselves and with the country. This is not an honest Resolution. Everybody knows that it is bound to be futile and ineffective. There is every reason why it should be futile and ineffective. This House has on many grounds lost all claim to represent the people of this country. It is a moribund, senile, unrepresentative Assembly. Its mandate was long ago exhausted. It will only be adding to the deep discredit into which it has fallen with the great body of the people of this country if it passes this fatuous, futile, and canting Resolution.

    Mr. RAFFAN rose——

    Division No. 60.]

    AYES.

    7.58 p.m.

    Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. ChristopherGardner, ErnestMorison, Thomas B. (Inverness)
    Agg-Gardner, Sir James TynteGeddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Cambridge)Mount, William Arthur
    Astor, Major Hon. WaldorfGibbs, Col. George AbrahamNeedham, Christopher Thomas
    Baldwin, StanleyGilmour, Lt.-Col. JohnNewman, Major J. R. P. (Enfield)
    Barnes, Rt. Hon. George N.Greer, HarryNewman, Sir Robert (Exeter)
    Barnett, Capt. Richard W.Greig, Colonel James WilliamNicholson, Sir Chas. N. (Doncaster)
    Barnston, Major HarryGuinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury St. Ed.)Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield)
    Barton, Sir WilliamHall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)Norton-Griffiths, Sir John
    Beck, Arthur CecilHambro, Angus ValdemarPalmer, Godfrey Mark
    Beckett, Hon. GervaseHardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence (Ashford)Parker, James (Halifax)
    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds)Pennefather, De Fonblanque
    Benn, Sir Arthur S. (Plymouth)Harris, Sir H. P. (Paddington, S.)Perkins, Walter Frank
    Bigland, AlfredHaslam, LewisPeto, Basil Edward
    Bird, AlfredHavelock-Allan, Sir HenryPollock, Sir Ernest Murray
    Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith-Henry, Sir Charles (Shropshire)Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
    Boyton, Sir JamesHewins, William Albert S.Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
    Brace, Rt. Hen. WilliamHickman, Brig.-Gen. Thomas E.Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
    Bridgeman, William CliveHills, John Waller (Durham)Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)
    Broughton, Urban HanlonHodge, Rt. Hon. JohnSamuels, Arthur W. (Dub. U.)
    Bryce, John AnnanHohler, Gerald FitzroySanders, Col. Robert Arthur
    Bull, Rt. Hen. Sir William JamesHope, Harry (Bute)Sherwell, Arthur James
    Butcher, Sir J. G.Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Smith, Harold (Warrington)
    Carew, Charles R. S. (Tiverton)Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)Spear, Sir John Ward
    Carr-Gomm, H. W.Hope, John Deans (Haddington)Stanier, Capt. Sir Beville
    Cator, JohnHorne, EdgarStarkey, John Ralph
    Cautley, Henry StrotherHunter, Maj. Sir Chas. Rodk.Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, W.)
    Cave, Rt. Hon. Sir GeorgeJardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord Edmund
    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)Jones. Wm. Kennedy (Hornsey)Tickler, Thomas George
    Chancellor, Henry GeorgeJones, Wm. S. Glyn- (Stepney)Tootill, Robert
    Chapple, Dr. William AllenJoynson-Hicks, WilliamTryon, Capt. George Clement
    Clyde, James AvonKellaway, Frederick GeorgeWalker, Col. W. H.
    Coates, Major Sir Edward F.Larmor, Sir JosephWalton, Sir Joseph
    Coats, Sir Stuart (Wimbledon)Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
    Colvin, Col.Levy, Sir MauriceWeston, John W.
    Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryLewis, Rt. Hon. John HerbertWhiteley, Sir H. J. (Droitwich)
    Currie, G. W.Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)
    Dalrymple, Hon. H. H.Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs. N.)
    Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)Lowe, Sir F. W.Wilson-Fox, Henry (Tamworth)
    Denman, Hon. Richard DouglasLoyd, Archie KirkmanWood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
    Denniss, Edmund R. BartleyMackinder Halford J.Wood, Sir John (Stalybridge)
    Du Cros, Sir Arthur PhilipMacmaster, DonaldYate, Col. Charles Edward
    Du Pre, Major W. BaringMacnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.Younger, Sir George
    Fell, Sir ArthurMason, Robert
    Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes (Fulham)Money, Sir L. G. Chlozza

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.

    Foster, Philip StaveleyMontagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.Sir M. Barlow and Sir G. Toulmin.

    NOES.

    Ainsworth, Sir John StirlingMarshall, Arthur HaroldSutherland, John E.
    Arnold, SydneyMillar, James DuncanTrevelyan, Charles philips
    Clough, WilliamMolteno, Percy AlportWatt Henry A.
    Davies, Ellis William (Eifton)Morrell, PhilipWhitehouse, John Howard
    Glanville, Harold JamesPrice, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)Wiles, Rt. Hon. Thomas
    Henderson. J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)Raffan, Peter WilsonWilkie, Alexander
    Jowett, Frederick WilliamRea, Walter RussellWilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
    Kiley, James DanielRichardson, Albion (Peckham)Wing, Thomas Edward
    King, JosephPichardson, Arthur (Rotherham)Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)
    Lambert, Richard (Cricklade)Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter (D'sbury)
    M'Callum, Sir John M.Runciman, Sir Walter (Hartlepool)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

    Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester)Smallwood, EdwardMr. Hogge and Mr. Pringle
    M'Kean, John

    Question, "That the Question be now put," put, and agreed to.

    Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

    The House divided: Ayes, 132; Noes, 34.

    Main Question put, and agreed to.

    Resolved,

    "That, in the interests alike of the State and of the wounded and discharged sailors and soldiers and their dependants, and of the widows and orphans of those who have fallen, it is essential that all questions relating to Pensions and Allowances should be kept free from party polities and the influence of party organisations."

    Parliament And Local Elections Bill

    Considered in Committee.

    [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

    Clause 1 (Further Prolongation Of Present Parliament) Ordered To Stand Part Of The Bill

    Clause 2—(Further Postponement Of Local Elections)

    (1) The next statutory elections of county and borough councillors, district councillors, guardians, and parish councillors shall, subject to the limitations hereinafter contained, be postponed, or, in the case of elections already postponed under the Elections and Registration Act, 1915, the Parliament and Local Elections Act, 1916, the Parliament and Local Elections Act, 1917, or the Parliament and Local Elections (No. 2) Act, 1917, further postponed, for a year; and the term of office of the existing councillors and guardians shall accordingly be extended, or further extended, by one year.

    This provision shall apply only where the next statutory election (whether a postponed election or not) would take place before the first day of March, nineteen hundred and nineteen.

    (2) Section two of the Elections and Registration Act, 1915, and paragraphs (2) to (10) (inclusive) of the Schedule to the Parliament and Local Elections Act, 1917, subject to the substitution in paragraph (7) of four years for three years as the period by which the term of office of an alderman of a municipal borough is extended, and except the provisions of paragraph (10) relating to the revision of jurors lists in Ireland, shall be deemed to be incorporated in this Section as though they were set out therein, and expressly made applicable to the provisions thereof.

    I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "This provision shall apply only where the next statutory election (whether a postponed election or not) would take place before the first day of March, nineteen hundred and nineteen."

    The object of my Amendment is to provide that the next statutory election for county councils and boards of guardians in England and Wales, which are due in March and April next, respectively, should be further postponed. I understand that the reason the Government draw a distinction between the local elections which are due to take place in November and those due to take place in March and April is that the new registers will barely be ready, if they are ready, for the November election, but that they will be available for the elections which are fixed to take place at the later date. I want to point out that there are strong reasons for the postponement of the county council elections as well as the others. My right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board said in Debate on the Second Reading that on this matter we are entitled to ascertain the opinion of the local bodies themselves. I propose, therefore, to place before him the opinion of the London County Council, which have passed the following resolution:
    "That, inasmuch as the Representation of the People Act, 1918, makes no special provision for enabling persons on war service or absent on war work to be registered as local government electors, or to vote at elections of local government authorities, and as there would be serious practical difficulties under prevailing conditions in holding such elections, and of inducing suitable persons to stand as candidates therefor, the county council is of opinion that the statutory elections of county councillors and guardians due in March and April, 1919, respectively, should be further postponed for a year."
    That resolution was passed by practically a unanimous vote, only one person, I understand, dissenting. I do not know what are the opinions of county councils generally, but I am inclined to think that the opinion would be adverse to holding elections under present conditions. I should like to enlarge somewhat upon the reasons which are given in the resolution which I have read. First of all, I would point out to the Government that it would be impossible to get a representative election in March next—an election, that is to say, which would include representation of many of the citizens of London, or of the other counties. An enormous number of citizens of London and of other districts will be absent on war service or on war work, and they will not be able to take part in the elections. The position as regards local elections is entirely different to that regarding Parliamentary elections. The Representation of the People Act, 1918, makes special provisions to enable persons on war service to be registered and to vote at Parliamentary elections. No such provision, however, has been made as regards local government elections. All this large number of people who will be able to vote at a Parliamentary election will not be able to vote at a county council election. You cannot, therefore, get a representative election. You really get no proper result. You will not ascertain what is the general opinion of the people interested in that election. I suggest that the Government are going to weaken rather than to strengthen these municipal bodies. If there is an election in March next, what is going to be the immediate result? The immediate result, I know, in London will be that a large number of capable administrators will retire. These are the people who are desirous of retiring now, and are only holding on at the present time till others can take their place. Then, again, I know a great many capable business men connected with the London County Council who are endeavouring to "carry on" at the present time, and who are doing a fair amount of municipal work, but the pressure of whose own businesses is such that if an election is added to the cares of business they will not be able to go on any longer. Therefore you are going undoubtedly to lose the services of a large number of people who are now carrying on the work and who are experienced administrators, and it will be impossible to replace them at present by persons of equal capacity.

    It being a Quarter-past Eight of the Clock, and leave having been given to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 10, further Proceeding was postponed, without Question put.

    National Shipping Expenditure

    Motion For Adjournment

    I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."

    I desire to move the Adjournment of the House in consequence of certain answers which were given to me to-day at Question Time in relation to national shipyards and certain developments which have arisen in regard to them within recent times. For the benefit of those who are not acquainted with the details of the questions and the answers, I will briefly summarise them first. It was stated that the scheme for national shipyards, which depended almost entirely at one time either upon enemy labour or military labour, was completely altered and the proposal to use military labour abandoned. I think this is the first time this has been stated officially in the House, and this introduces, therefore, a fresh demand for civilian labour for these national shipyards, and this despite the fact, as revealed in the answers to the questions, that there is at the present time certain and, in some cases, considerable shortage in the supply of labour in the private yards. I further elicited from the right hon. Gentleman (Dr. Macnamara) the fact that of the eighty-seven slips which had been sanctioned by the Admiralty as extensions to existing private yards, only fourteen had been completed, and that therefore seventy-three had still to be completed, and when completed equipped and supplied with labour. On the top of all this there is in the air and, if I may say so with respect to the right hon. Gentleman, in view of the light way in which he dealt with the matter, very much in the air so far as he was concerned, but rather more seriously on paper, and in prospect so far as those who are determined in this matter are concerned—a housing scheme which will provide accommodation for civilian and married labour which is required for carrying out the whole of this national shipyard scheme. I would remind the House that in the Report of the Committee on Expenditure this at present includes thirty-four berths.

    The reason why I ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House is that I feel very strongly, and I have reason to know that I am supported in this in many quarters of the House, that a scheme of this kind which has been criticised so severely, which has been shown to have so many serious and I might almost say disastrous aspects from the financial and economic point of view, and which is failing, as we are told officially, to supply any needs so far as war emergency is concerned, is now to be extended, and that a further expenditure of money upon a considerable housing scheme—and it must be a considerable housing scheme if there is to be adequate accommodation for the number of men requisite for the supply of all these things—is to be incurred. All this while the existing yards are short of men, while the men who have been promised to be returned from the Army have as a net result not been returned, although I folly admit that 12,000 men have been brought to the shipyards from some section of the Army, but we have not been told, and I do not desire to ask—it is not in the public interest to do so—the exact number of men who have been combed out of shipyards and gone into the Army, I think it is common knowledge that the net result does not considerably increase, I should be inclined to think it decreased, the number of men who are actually working in the yards. Further, these slips of which we have hoard to-day are additional slips to be devoted to private yards, which have been sanctioned but are not complete. I was rather amused, if I may say so, at the right hon. Gentleman's correction of my figure of seventy. I desired to under-estimate the unfortunate position in which the Admiralty found themselves. The right hon. Gentleman says it was not seventy which had been sanctioned, but eighty-seven, but if you deduct the fourteen from the actual figure his figure is seventy-three as against my modest figure of seventy, which I stated have not been completed. The seriousness of it is emphasised and increased by the figures announced a few days ago of the output of ships for June—a figure which greatly disappointed all those who had hoped that a considerable improvement was taking place. All the adding of months together and of the charts and "graphs" in the world will not remove the strong impression in the House and the country that something is wrong in the management and in the supply of labour to private shipyards.

    What is the position as we find it, as reported upon in connection with national shipyards and the housing scheme by the Committee which inquired specially into this department of expenditure? May I just say, in passing, that we are dealing now with a type of ship which has been described, I suppose for the purpose of brevity and partly for the purpose of accuracy, as a fabricated ship. This is commented upon in an article which I read to-day. The writer asks what the definition is of the word "fabricated," and upon referring to a dictionary he finds it has two meanings, one is to put together by art and labour and the other to devise falsely. I am bound to say that the intention, no doubt, on the part of those who undertook this scheme was that ships should be put together by art and labour, but the Committee, in their Report have discovered undoubtedly that the whole scheme has been devised falsely. The Committee discovered and reported to the House that the whole scheme rested upon the basis of either, first of all, enemy or prisoner labour, or, secondly, military labour, and it was alone on this ground the scheme in their opinion was justified. Anything which proposed to take labour from the unskilled or skilled shipbuilding market was strongly to be deprecated. The Committee went on to point out that as soon as it had been shown to them that a change bad been decided upon and that military labour was not obtainable, they then said that this necessarily involves a further expenditure on housing and delay in the output of ships. Later, a statement was published in the Press by the Comptroller-General that no ships were at present being fabricated, but that the material which had been placed in the yards for the purpose was being returned to private yards, and that no progress would take place in these yards until they were complete.

    One question which I put to-day was to ask what the completion of the yards involved and whether or not it involved a considerable expenditure upon housing. The right hon. Gentleman in one of his answers indicated somewhat airily, if he will allow me to say so, that some further expenditure would be involved in respect of the married men, but those who were present will agree with me that nothing like a serious scheme was indicated. That is my object in asking the House to record an opinion upon this matter. I only want to know definitely what is the size of the scheme that is in contemplation, and what it involves. The number of men that will be required to successfully and properly man the construction of the shipyards I am not able to estimate, but it must be a very considerable number, and if you are driven, as you have admitted you are driven, to fall back entirely upon civilian labour, and have to abandon altogether your previous ideas, I think the House ought to know what is the estimated number of men who will have to be housed there, what is the new scheme, if the quarters are to be married quarters so as to provide for families, and, if so, what is the extent of the population which will form the new township in the district.

    I might also ask the right hon. Gentleman, in reference to his reply about skilled labour, whether he is really advised that the fabrication of these ships—that is, the putting together of these ships—can be conducted without a percentage of skilled labour, in a new place, without the traditions, without the experience, and without the advantages which come from the surrounding of a shipbuilding district. Does he really expect that the men who are going to be put there can do the work without a considerable percentage of skilled men? If not, where are the skilled men coming from? I would ask the First Lord of the Admiralty to consider in this matter the absolute necessity of looking at it from a strictly businesslike point of view. The fabrication of ships has sometimes been spoken of by those who apparently have not had experience of shipbuilding as if it were the application for adults of a game or exercise which is described as "Meccano" for children—the putting together of lightly arranged pieces of mechanism which are very pretty to look at, but which will not stand much strain.

    I listened to the right hon. Gentleman when he announced the name of the officer who is to be in charge of this building scheme, and I am desirous of calling the attention of the House to that gentleman. General Collard is to be in charge of the scheme. We thought we had secured a new post for General Collard in the Admiralty, where his special gifts would have scope. We were assured in another place upstairs by the Controller-General that General Collard's gifts would be exercised in the post of General Director of Administration. I do not think anyone knew what it meant, but it seemed to imply that he would not come too prominently into conflict with either shipbuilders or labour in the future. He is now put in charge of this housing scheme. One naturally inquires as to his record in these matters. I have in my hand the Report of the Auditor-General with regard to a scheme of a somewhat similar character at a place—I will not mention the name—in connection with the Inland Water Transport Department. The Auditor-General's Report is very interesting with regard to the scheme of which General Collard had charge. To summarise it very briefly: A sum was sanctioned by the Treasury of £109,000, which was subsequently revised to no less a sum of £913,000. That is not all. Beyond that sum it was discovered that there was omitted the trifling item of £113,000. Then, by some curious process, I suppose oversight, it was found that there had been an omission to add—that is how it is put—the small sum of £350,000. Then it was discovered that that did not include the cost of labour, which is generally an item which business men take into account in dealing with large operations. The cost of military labour was no less than £500,000, so that the original innocent and harmless little figure of £109,000 had risen in the Report of the Auditor-General—although one is almost inclined to turn it into ridicule, it is a very serious matter—of £1,893,000.

    This is an officer who I should imagine from what I have heard is not a genius in finance, and from what I have heard he knows less than you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, about shipbuilding. That is the man who first of all had charge of the scheme to which I have just referred. Subsequently he had the management of merchant shipbuilding in the country, and he diverted his attention to the national shipyards, with the disastrous consequences revealed in the Select Committee's Report, and he is now to take charge of the new housing scheme in connection with the national shipyards. We owe a debt of gratitude to the Committee which has given us a warning in regard to the national shipyards, and the House I think should take, and will take, note of that warning and act upon it. I should like to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if it is possible to explain to the House why he and those associated with him did not take note of the warning which was addressed to him, and also I believe to General Collard, as to the position with regard to labour in connection with these national shipbuilding yards? Is it by chance that it has now been discovered that military labour is not applicable in these yards? Had any serious effort been made by the right hon. Gentleman, who is primarily responsible in this matter, to ascertain if military labour could be properly used, and whether that course would be possible under all the circumstances, or was it like these other schemes, started and nearly £4,000,000 spent upon it, only afterwards to be found that the main essential upon which the whole scheme was built was missing, and the whole scheme fell to the ground?

    Instead of wasting—I will withdraw the word "wasting," because after the War there may be some scope for these yards—or spending these £4,000,000 in this way how might the energy of the right hon. Gentleman have been directed? He knew—I fancy the estimate came from him—that 20,000 more men were required in order to keep up the output of merchant shipbuilding in this country. Those men have never been supplied. There is a continued shortage. During the whole of that time, instead of turning his attention towards this scheme of national shipyards and this subsequent scheme of housing, it would have been better if he had thrown all his energy and business training into a scheme for increasing the work of the private yards and seeing that the extensions in those yards were completed. I would call attention to the fact that no ships have appeared from the national shipyards. There is no chance for some time of any ships appearing from the national shipyards. It has now become not a war emergency—the Report of the Committee makes that perfectly clear—but a speculative adventure in the hands of an officer whose career I have endeavoured to sketch, and the whole matter is one which I think the right hon. Gentleman will be bound to agree the House of Commons should express an opinion upon. Therefore, I desire to ask him one or two definite questions. What is the policy now of the national shipyards? What is the policy with regard to housing? What is happening now, and what is going to be done? I am informed that there are at the present time numbers of highly-paid foremen walking about the national shipyard sites, which I will call B and C, with nothing to do. The foremen and workmen in the adjoining yard, which is a private yard, are somewhat envious both of the pay and of the leisure of the gentlemen who have nothing to do there. There are young men who, I think, I might almost ask the right hon. Gentleman to bring to the notice of his illustrious and hon. relative in this House, who might very well be in the Army, who are using a great deal of petrol on journeys to and fro about lunch-time, but who have really nothing to do. What does all this mean? What is the policy of the national shipyards' What is the number of men it is proposed to take into these national shipyards? What is the total population that will eventually be brought there? What is the cost of carrying out this scheme?

    I do not desire to put any hindrance whatever in the way of the natural course of the Debate which will take place, probably next week, on the Shipbuilding Vote, when the whole subject of shipbuilding, possibly including this subject, will be discussed. But I felt very strongly—and I believe that the House supports me—that there should be a stay in this matter, and that there should be no further procedure with regard to this possibly vast expenditure, in view of all the circumstances, until the House has had a chance of expressing its opinion on the whole matter. What I apply for is what, in legal phraseology, is described as an interim injunction, so that the Government may not proceed further in this matter until the House knows all about it and can express its opinion fully upon it. We owe a deep debt of gratitude to this Committee, which is throwing light on so many of these matters. We have received a clear warning from them in this matter. With this warning before us and with our eyes fully open with regard to this national shipyard, I would suggest to the House that it would be a criminal neglect of duty if the House were to let this matter go until it is satisfied that everything is being done, first of all to supply the private yards with labour and material and extend those private yards to the full extent sanctioned and not to allow another pound to be spent on this ill-considered scheme until we know exactly the answers to the questions which I have ventured to put and all the facts of the case. This matter is much too serious to be trifled with any longer. It is not a matter of war urgency. If it were, I should be the last person to endeavour for a moment to prevent immediate action, but it is a speculative venture, and no reputation however great, and no personality however brilliant, must be allowed to prevent the House of Commons from insisting that it should have a full explanation of policy, and be asked to give its decision upon it before any further step is taken.

    I rise to second the Motion which has been explained so clearly by my hon. Friend the Member for Morley. I speak as the representative of the largest single shipbuilding town in the world, the borough of Sunderland, which did, and does, build more tonnage per annum than any other single town in the world. I wish to put before the House shortly the miserable history of these so-called national yards, as viewed by the shipbuilders of the greatest shipbuilding town in the world. The Government did not go into this scheme unwarned. It blundered into it. For a Government that boasts as having at its command thousands of business men it has made the blunder the worse by ignoring the advice of the only men—namely, the shipbuilders of the country—who were in a position to give advice. Deputation after deputation of shipbuilders waited upon Major-General Collard and pointed out what would happen, and what they pointed out has happened. Deputations waited upon the First Lord of the Admiralty and failed to persuade him that the shipbuilders of this country, the greatest shipbuilders in the world, knew more about shipbuilding than he did. The advisory committee of shipbuilders, set up by the Government itself, and composed of some of the greatest builders in this country, waited at least twice on the Prime Minister himself in the presence of all his advisers, and pointed out to him the blunder of starting these yards. Deputations were ignored, advice was ignored, and the blunder started, and we are to-day in the position that unless we stop the Government in this House—the only place where they can be stopped, and the only place where free men can express their views with freedom and independence—the blunder will become a scandal.

    Well, it will become a greater scandal, and it will not help one iota in winning the War, but will be a very serious brake on many Departments of State which ought to be devoting their whole energies and enthusiasm to the War, and not to some plan of shipbuilding that cannot fructify until after the War, and meantime is a waste of a colossal kind. Then and now the shipbuilders of this country pointed out to the Government that many yards had room for more slips, that if the Government wanted to build ships, that were then and are now sorely needed, all they had to do was to ask the private yards to lay down more slips to build more ships. Neither then nor now had, or has, any shipbuilding yard in this country more labour than it needs. No yard has enough labour for the work that it could and is anxious to do. I would remind the House—and here I speak with personal knowledge—that when you take an old yard you have the office staff there, you have the machinery, the supervisors, the gangers, the foremen, the draughtsmen, and all the heads of departments—the personnel that cannot be built up in a moment. It is all there, and in the old yard you can have one slip or two slips, and you can put another shipyard with a dozen slips on the same river, controlled by the same office staff and the same heads of departments. But when you start setting up new yards in the South-West of England, in a place which shipbuilders tell me can never possibly be the best place for shipbuilding owing to climatic, tidal, and other reasons, you have got to create not only your slips but the most difficult thing in business—the brains of the yard, in the offices, and in the yard itself. Where are you going to get them? As I said a moment ago, there is not a yard in the country where they have got a man to spare; there is not a yard where they have their full complement.

    The only way you can get men, whether boiler-makers, draughtsmen, gangers, foremen, or others, is by seducing them, through offering probably higher wages or salaries, to leave the private yards in this country. I protest against this mean and shabby trick, which is a common thing among Government Departments, of seducing from private employers men who have been brought up in their yards, and taking them away from their position in those yards to which they have grown accustomed, and in which they can produce the best that is in them. Let me say one thing, and this is especially for the First Lord of the Admiralty, who does not seem to know much about shipbuilding: Shipbuilding in this country is a native and indigenous trade. On the Wear there are some sixteen shipyards, and in those yards are to be found the descendants of those who made the wooden walls of England that fought against Napoleon. This shipbuilding cannot be shifted from rivers to which they are indigenous to some spot in the Western part of England. It is an industry which is one of the great glories of the country. The private employer on the Wear looks upon his men as an inestimable asset in his business, and it is on the Wear, the Tyne, and the Tees, and other ports and rivers in the North of England, that our great ships are built. May I say that there has never been a successful shipyard in the last generation south of those northern ports and rivers? Cardiff has tried again and again to make a success of shipbuilding, and they cannot do it. Every yard on the Thames has moved away for various reasons. [Interruption.] I am emphasising what I should have thought was a self-evident truth, that you cannot establish shipyards where you will, and that you can only get the best results in shipbuilding by developing the yards where they are now, where they have naturally taken their root, where the men and the employers take great pride in the yards, and where the history of shipbuilding production is really a family matter in the eyes of every worker employed in those great concerns. I think that the romance of shipbuilding in this country should appeal to everyone, and every consideration should be shown by any Government in order to encourage those men who have spent their time, and in some cases whose families have spent generations, in this mighty and paramount interest.

    I am afraid that this is one of the tragic results of want of foresight on the part of the Government, and of their unwillingness to face the realities of war, quite independent of subsidiary considerations, like building ships in some dim future. The decision was made in a panic against the advice of everyone who knew. There was no estimate of the cost—a fine example of business control in shipbuilding! Millions have been wasted, labour has been wasted, the organising and supervision of personnel has been wasted. What really is a serious matter is that the time and energy of the War Cabinet, which should think of nothing but this awful War, where men are slaughtered daily, have been wasted by innumerable deputations, by arguments for and against, and by the pursuit of this phantom of a great national shipyard on the mud flats of a river in the West of England. Up to the present not a ship has been produced, and there is no sign of a ship being produced for years. I urge the Government, however foolish it has been, to be strong enough now to stop this blunder. I want to put one or two questions to the First Lord of the Admiralty, and I insist upon an answer, for Cabinet Ministers have long since lost their glamour for me. I think both these Front Benches are responsible for more hideous blunders and loss of life than any two benches in the history of any war. To me this War is a horror, and when I find the Government blundering over national shipyards, and blundering in their Departments, it is time for us, or for me at any rate, to speak out. I am going to put a few questions to the First Lord of the Admiralty, and he has got to answer them. If he does not, I shall use every possible method of the House of Commons, which does not give us many, but still gives us some, in spite of the Government, to get an answer to these questions which I am about to put. Has the First Lord of the Admiralty got the backing of Lord Pirrie in continuing these shipyards? That is the first question. Is he himself personally responsible for their continuance? That is the second question. Is the War Cabinet responsible for their continuance? Finally, are the demands of the Minister of National Service, the harshest demands in the history of the War, for man-power, not only for the Army and Navy, but for these shipyards, to go on at one and the same time? Are some of our great industries to be bled white of men, and the Army to be denuded of men, for these national shipyards? Are all these demands for man-power to go on, this waste of man-power, and waste of the money of the nation for these shipyards still to go on? I put those questions to the First Lord of the Admiralty.

    I only intervene in this Debate because it so happens that the day before yesterday I was in the neighbourhood of Bristol, and, knowing this question was to arise, I took the opportunity to visit these national shipyards. To my mind, to say that they are on mud flats, and, from that point of view, are in a hopeless position, is to give quite an erroneous impression. During the last three months I have been concerned in the extension of some private yards in that delightful part of the country from which my hon. and gallant Friend comes, and, having that experience in my mind, when I went to the national shipyards, I found that there were eight berths, which so far as the berths themselves were concerned, were most admirable. They have every foundation which is required, and the piling of the foundations was done in a less number of days than the two or three extensions which I was concerned in making up North. From the launching point of view the work which had been done was absolutely good, and in regard to the driving of piles rock was very soon reached. Indeed, you cannot even pile, which we all know is one of the main items of cost in building a slipway, except right at the lip, on account of the firmness of the ground. I am not giving an opinion as to whether or not the Government were wise in developing a national shipyard policy.

    Can the hon. and gallant Member say whether or not at that particular site the builders responsible have added a considerable amount of unnecessary concrete to the firm ground?

    9.0 P.M.

    I should say, taking it on the whole, no, and the concrete which they put in is practically without reinforcement whatever, and that is what costs the money. The actual expenditure in concrete on the berths which I saw being concreted would be less, I should think, than £200 or £300 per berth. The depth is merely 18 ins. in one place, just skimming on the surface. These yards which I saw are ideal berths from a launching point of view. There is no difficulty; the rise and fall of the tide make no difference whatever in the Launching. There is virtually no grading to do, which is the case in most places, and from a shipbuilding point of view I classified it, having seen 1,000,000 odd cubic yards of stuff in the course of movement now to make one yard that I visited up North, as an ideal spot for a yard because they had nothing to move. I will not be sure as to one or two berths, but there were virtually completed something like sixteen berths—it might be eighteen or it might be fourteen—and another four more than three-quarters finished—that is, as far as the ground work is concerned and the piling in front. All that remains to be completed is the erection of cranes for lifting up the material and so forth. There are to-day thirty cranes on the ground, which would enable them to start to-morrow, or perhaps I had better say in a fortnight's time, and lay down at least four keels. That is the position as I saw it yesterday. When I say it could be done in a fortnight, I mean that I could do it if I had anything to do with it myself. I only want to tell the House what I really saw. I went to some extent into the figures, and I did not see any great wastage as far as the site is concerned. To inquire into the method of construction and whether they have had too many men or not on the work would take a week or more, and I did not go into that matter, but I had occasion to meet General Collard, and I happen to have had some knowledge of his work beforehand. I knew him when he was in Nigeria when I was building a big railway in another big territory next door in East Africa. He is a man of extraordinary energy and driving power. He is a mover, a hustler, and a driver, and he has had very considerable constructional experience. [An HON. MEMBER: "In shipbuilding?"] No; in railway undertakings. I knew of that experience four years ago, before he ever had anything to do with this business, and, indeed, I did not know the two men were the same man until I saw him yesterday. I purposely got an invitation and wont down to a spot, which was criticised, for which General Collard is supposed to be responsible. The man who had most of the work to do was General Williams, an engineer of world-wide experience, including such places as Singapore and Bombay, and big dock and harbour schemes elsewhere. I visited the other place, and it is certainly, from a military point of view, doing admirable work. I cannot go into the cost of it, but it is a very essential part of our shipbuilding programme at the present time. With regard to the question of fabricating ships, I went into that with a very experienced firm in the North the other day, or rather with two firms, who are now fabricating ships, and the view they take is that in a very short time they will be able to adapt their machinery to enable them considerably to improve the output, and to switch over from bridge-building into fabricating ships. As far as fabricating ships is concerned, I am sure that bridge-builders on this occasion will rise to the national demands and meet the requirements of the various shipyards.

    With regard to the labour position, I do quite agree it is a very complex proposition. It affects the question of dilution, which is the bedrock of the whole thing. Dilution carried to certain limits might be opposed by different unions interested in shipbuilding, and we have got all sorts of complicated sides to that. One does not want to develop an argument on labour and so forth, but I admit it is a problem to-day, and I know that up in the North, in one yard I was in, there have been built two extra shipways, and they are something like 350 men short of their complement. If they could get 350 more men, they could do almost twice the amount of work they do at the present time. There is no disguising the fact that every shipyard in the North is short, and seriously short. It is a problem, I know, and I have seen the Minister of National Service on this matter. It is one of the many problems he has to face to-day as to how to keep yards going and at the same time keep the line in France, If we do not keep that line, the ships building in this country are no good. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why?"] Because if you do not hold your line in France the enemy will be in this country. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] It is a very optimistic view to take that no landing is possible in this country, but I think that is a matter which is outside the bounds of our discussion.

    In conclusion, I would only suggest to this House that you have one of the greatest of shipbuilders in this country to-day at the head. Everyone was delighted, I think, throughout the country when we heard that he had been placed in supreme command. I do think that the House would be safe in sending a message, as the result of this Debate, to Lord Pirrie that we in this House look to him to send us his direct views, through the First Lord of the Admiralty, telling us whether or not he believes in this national shipyard scheme. I think also we in this House would be prepared to support him up to the hilt if he said "Stop!" I think it would have a great effect on this question, because it is a very great responsibility on any man, however great and experienced he may be, suddenly to come into office, and to scrap millions of pounds' worth of work or shut it down, but I do think if this House indicated to-night that we have implicit faith and confidence in his ability, and that we look to him to do the right thing, and that whatever it is we should support him, and that we should like to get his views through the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty, I think it would go a long way to help him in the difficult task he has to perform.

    The national shipyards to-night have been described as a blunder, and that is really the charge against the Admiralty that I have to endeavour to answer. The Committee which reported on finance drew attention—and, I think, it was most useful that they should draw attention—to the fact that these yards were started without the proper procedure of estimates having been passed to the Treasury. It is very useful that that criticism should be made of any Department. But I would ask the House to recollect—not in excuse for the national yards, because, in my opinion, they do not require excuse; they merely require to be explained and to be justified—but I would ask the House to recollect the atmosphere in which this decision was taken by the War Cabinet. At the time that the War Cabinet decided to go ahead with the national yards, the world's shipping was shrinking very fast. The enemy's submarine fleet was increasing, and I have learnt—as many hon. and right hon. Members of this House know themselves—that it is a lengthy business to frame and get through estimates for a large undertaking of this kind, and in the atmosphere that then existed, I felt justified in recommending the Cabinet, and the Cabinet accepted the recommendation, that we should go ahead with these yards, cutting out the very desirable and essential Estimates which ought, under normal proceedings and conditions, to be presented before any undertaking of this magnitude was embarked upon.

    These yards were decided upon in order to build the fabricated ship. At that time it was perfectly clear to us that the skilled labour available in the country to build ships was insufficient. It was insufficient to build ships as they have been built in the past, and the only way which was open to us to increase the output of ships was to do without the quota of skilled labour employed in the methods of construction which had been adopted by the great shipbuilding industry of which this country is so justly proud. It may appear that that was a very bold venture on the part of officials who had not behind them the backing of the Advisory Committee on Shipbuilding.

    The Advisory Committee on Shipbuilding had devised a standard ship, and that was affording as much difficulty at the time as any shipbuilders' advisory body, or, indeed, any body of officials, was prepared to face. The device of the fabricated ship was come to on the advice of a large body of experienced shipbuilders, but not of the Advisory Committee. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Wednesbury (Sir N. Griffiths) has asked: Is Lord Pirrie in favour of the national shipyards; is Lord Pirrie in favour of the standard ship? It is not necessary to wait until the Debate next week on Vote 8. Lord Pirrie is here in the Gallery, and I know his views, as I knew them some months ago. Lord Pirrie is entirely in favour of the standard ship and of the national shipyards.

    Since he became Comptroller-General he has entirely supported them, and before he was approached to take up the appointment he entirely supported them in conversation with me.

    Was he in favour of the method proposed at the beginning, which we all opposed?

    The method of completing the fabricated ship is to prepare the parts in the bridge yards and take them to the shipyards to erect them. The object of that is to get the benefit of the labour and of the machines which are in the bridge yards to-day and to erect them with an economy of skilled labour in the shipyards. When these yards were decided upon—and I endeavour to bring to the recollection of the House the atmosphere in which the decision had to be taken—it was clear that a very considerable change in the labour position would have to be made before ships of this type could be erected under the ordinary conditions of labour. In these yards, which were located on the Severn, and the situation for which has been so generously testified to by the hon. and gallant Member (Sir N. Griffiths), and also for the purpose for which they were constructed by the Committee which reported on the financial aspect of the scheme, the idea was that the ordinary civilian labour of the country would be fully occupied in the ordinary yards building ships in the way which has been adopted with such great success by the shipbuilders of the country, and it was proposed then to build these ships with prisoner of war labour, and to some extent possibly by military labour. That was the scheme which was put before the Cabinet. When at a later stage Lord Pirrie met the trade unions on the possibility of getting the bridge-yard fabricated parts of ships erected in the ordinary shipyards, because the shipbuilders of the country, finding a great shortage of skilled labour realised that they would have to adopt this new system of construction—and they are adopting it—he found that the trade unions were prepared whole-heartedly—and I acknowledge this to the full—to co-operate with the Controller-General, and were prepared to raise no difficulties either in the private yards or in the bridge yards or in the national yards if the labour in the national yards, so far as it was British labour, was civilian, and after those negotiations we were able to undertake the building of these ships with civilian labour. If there was a shortage of labour it was agreed with the trade unions that the work could be done by soldiers transferred to the Reserve working as civilians at civilian rates of pay, and that is the scheme that is at present being worked to.

    Did the right hon. Gentleman ignore the advice given to him before the adoption of this scheme, that it would be necessary to come to an arrangement on this matter of military labour?

    As far as I recollect before the scheme was embarked upon we were not warned, but it was not necessary, because we realised that it was obvious that there might be difficulties.

    Was it not the original intention to construct the ships by military labour?

    Certainly the intention was to construct them by military labour and by prisoner-of-war labour, because we realised that the skilled labour available for the ordinary yards constructing ships in the ordinary way was likely to be, and has proved to be, deficient to a greater extent than we believed owing to events which have happened in France. That was the basis of the whole scheme.

    This employment of civilian labour in the national yards has affected the question of housing. If the men were to be prisoners of war or enlisted men they would be housed in hutments, as enlisted men and prisoners are housed throughout the country, but with the introduction of civilian labour in a great many cases a certain proportion of the housing will probably have to be of a little more elaborate type, and that will probably cause a certain increase of cost under that head. But there is a compensation under the head of housing also. If you have prisoner-of-war and military labour under ordinary discipline it is undesirable—in fact, it would be very inconvenient and unsuitable to house them for a lengthy period of time in houses and halls in the town, but civilian labour can be housed in that way, and as the scheme developed, and with the introduction of civilian labour, it has been possible to arrange for the use of a dock at Portishead for an annual payment for fitting out berths for ships, and the ships will be moved down there to be fitted out. That takes a good deal of the higher class of labour, and that labour, together with a certain amount of the civilian labour for the yards, will be taken out by train in a way that is done in all munition works, and to a great extent that civilian labour will be able to use town houses. I regret that I am not in a position to give the House any estimate to-night exactly how we shall stand financially on housing. It must depend on the number of men we can fit into the houses at Bristol, Portishead, and the district. But it is estimated and believed that the actual net increase for housing will not be a very large item.

    Does the right hon. Gentleman pledge himself to anything like a sum of £1,000,000 sterling?

    I have said I cannot commit myself to any definite sum. The question of the alternative extension of private yards has been mentioned. Of these eighty-seven have been sanctioned, and fourteen are complete. It has been stated that but for the construction of the national shipyards labour would have been available for these extensions of private yards. I do not think, on examination, that will be found to be the case. It may be to some extent, but not to any considerable extent. In the first place, the labour to be used in the national yards was prisoner-of-war labour and military labour. As the House is aware, labour under these conditions cannot be used conveniently or very properly in small parties working in thickly-populated areas, where it is difficult to separate military and prisoner-of-war workers from civilian workers. I do not think that the building of the national shipyards has interfered to any extent with the extension of private yards for this reason, that the extensions of private yards are being made, with, I think, the exception of one yard on the Tees, for the building of ships not in the fabricated way, but in the other way, which requires the installation of a considerable amount of additional machinery. It is machinery, I am informed, which is retarding the completion of these extensions of private yards.

    The labour situation, so far as the construction of ships and the building of the extensions are concerned, is really this: There is a great shortage of skilled shipyard labour. That shortage existed when last year the building of ships began to be a matter of prime importance, and it is accentuated to-day. In the first place, events which occurred in France have prevented us getting back men from the Army whom we had hoped to get, and it has necessitated other men whom we had hoped to retain being sent out, not from the shipyards themselves, which have been combed out to that serious extent, but from other industries which would have helped us. Thus there is to-day a greater shortage of skilled labour for shipbuilding than we had anticipated, although we did realise there would be a shortage. The advantage of the fabricated ship as against a ship of the ordinary type is this—and here I am quoting figures which Lord Pirrie himself has given me—that in building ships in the ordinary way, I will not say the old-fashioned way, but the way generally adopted, the proportion of skilled labour is one to four or one to six, whereas in building ships of the fabricated type Lord Pirrie puts the minimum at one to forty. That is one of the main advantages which we hope to derive from building fabricated ships.

    The fabricated ship was not taken up in any of the private yards in the first place. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland has told us about that great shipbuilding centre. I claim to know something about that place myself. I realise that Sunderland shipbuilders are among the first in the world. It is those very people who now, because they are short of skilled labour, are asking to build fabricated ships, and one of the reasons, not the only reason, why the national shipyards are not building to-day is that in fulfilment of a pledge given in this House we agreed that they should not be used unless the private yards were working to their full capacity. The very material that to-day is going to the private yards was fabricated for the national yards, and eleven ships now being fabricated in the private yards would in other circumstances have been available for the national yards. As I have said, the private shipbuilders were not willing to take up the building of fabricated ships at first. My hon. Friend who moved the Resolution referred to General Collard. I have known General Collard since the spring of 1916, and I can confirm in every way what my hon. Friend said about him. He is a man of extraordinary ability. He is one of those who get things done. General Collard is not today employed by Lord Pirrie on the construction of ships. [An HON. MEMBER interrupted.]

    I must ask hon. Members to observe the ordinary courtesies of debate. It is not possible to continue a speech with continual interruptions. If there is a point worth making, let the hon. Member ask a question, but not indulge in interruptions.

    General Collard is not employed in charge of the construction of ships. He is employed by Lord Pirrie as his assistant, with some sort of title which I do not recollect for the moment. He is employed on work which he knows very well—engineering work—and I have every reason to believe that he is conducting it with that skill with which everyone who knows him credits him. Reference has been made to certain estimates leading from £100,000 to an expenditure of £1,500,000 at a place of which General Collard was in charge. I am not here to answer that criticism. It does not relate to an Admiralty matter. But I happen to know something of the case, because at a certain time I was also connected with the place. It started as a small undertaking, but in the result it formed the nucleus of a great success in the matter of transport across the Channel and to Mesopotamia. Those who started the undertaking, with the greatest possible courage, embarked on a scheme of transporting goods across the Channel until it became a system of transportation to France and to Mesopotamia of which the country has every reason to be proud. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sunderland asked four questions. He asked, Does Lord Pirrie back the scheme? The answer is, Yes, in every way, and whole-heartedly. Secondly, he asks. Did I back it? The answer is, Yes, in every way, and whole-heartedly. Thirdly, Does the War Cabinet back it? Yes, in every way, and whole-heartedly. There was a fourth question in relation to the Ministry of National Service, but I am not quite sure that I follow it. I think it was, Do we propose to go on with the national shipyards while the Minister for National Service is in need of men for other purposes? The answer must necessarily be, If we are convinced of the need of the national shipyards, the men for them will have to be found so far as they can, and I believe they can be found just as they have to be found for agriculture or anything else. In the opinion of myself and of my advisers, my chief adviser being Lord Pirrie, in regard to whose great ability and great knowledge I hold the same opinion that is held by all those who know him, the national shipyards will be a great asset. They are being built in a thoroughly practical way to build ships in a shorter time with far less skilled labour than the old type of ships. The fabricated ship is an essential part of the national shipyards, because they cannot build any other type, and it is one of the great revolutions in the industry, and here I am again quoting Lord Pirrie. It is one of the greatest revolutionary movements we can imagine.

    I think the House would like to know who is responsible under Lord Pirrie for the building of ships in the national shipyards. Lord Pirrie has brought to the Severn the managing director of his Belfast yards, and I think I am right in saying a very large proportion of the drawing staff and technical heads, and under him that gentleman and that staff is responsible for the running of the yard. I think when I have told the House that, it will carry very great confidence. As to the site itself, the position on the Severn, with its absolute mud flats—I do not know what they are suitable for except for shipyards—the site was confirmed by an undertaking given by a committee, of which Lord Inchcape was chairman, and they are a body of men who stand high in the opinion of the people of this country. We believe that the national shipyards will be a success, and although we admit that it is a pity that in the situation as it then existed it was not possible and not desirable to go into detailed estimates, we believe they will be a success, and the Controller-General, myself, and the Cabinet mean to see them through.

    As the House will have observed, the four questions put by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sunderland have been answered precisely by the First Lord of the Admiralty, but it will also be observed that he said that the Controller-General of Merchant Shipbuilding, the First Lord himself, and the War Cabinet were whole-heartedly in favour of the scheme. Now it is around the scheme that the whole of this discussion is centred, and I would like to ask which scheme are they in favour of? May I point out that the original scheme has been abandoned? As explained to the Committee on Public Expenditure, that was a scheme to provide for the employment of labour which would otherwise have been wasted so far as shipbuilding was concerned. In another part of the Report it is declared that these yards were to be used for the employment of military unskilled labour and prisoners of war. That was the original scheme, and it was only because that was the original scheme that the national shipyards were ever put forward in the first place or escaped criticism when they were first described. The original scheme has been abandoned, Therefore in regard to that scheme it has become the fashion to ask the First Lord that question, but I do not need to wait for the answer. If the right hon. Gentleman was asked whether Lord Pirrie was in favour of the original scheme, would he say that he was whole-heartedly in favour of it?

    Yes. It is perfectly true that, later on, when he had discussed the matter with the trade unions—this applies not only to those yards, but also to private yards—he thought it was better to make some modification, and I entirely agree with him.

    May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has ever ascertained if Lord Pirrie had been Controller in May, 1917, he would ever have embarked upon that scheme?

    If Lord Pirrie was in favour of the original scheme for the employment of military labour and military unskilled labour it was very singular. I think we must examine the scheme in the light of its original form because the reason why there is a great deal of nervousness in the House about this matter is that the scheme changes from time to time. I hesitate to mention the name of the Director-General again, and as he is a personal friend of mine I should never criticise anything he did unkindly. I knew his great business ability before he became a friend of mine, and in regard to merchant shipbuilding I think the country was most fortunate in securing his services. I must point out that Lord Pirrie has now been given an extremely thankless task. He is asked to make this scheme into a thoroughly workable and practicable concern. On what basis? There has been a good deal of criticism about the expenditure of these yards as they stand. The Committee on National Expenditure discovered that nearly £4,000,000 had gone in the cost of these yards. When the First Lord tells us it was not practical to obtain estimates I must point out that the scheme was approved in July, 1917, and that the estimate was not placed before the Treasury until the end of January, 1918, an interval of six or seven months.

    May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that even then it was only produced at all after the Committee had asked for it several times?

    I know nothing about that, but these facts show that their creation of the scheme was certainly not on the lines which would have governed a private yard. We know that private yards had been constructed in various parts of the country. There is not a single yard with which the hon. Member for Wednesbury is connected in the North or any other yard on the North-Eastern coast that has run up anything like the cost per berth that this will come to. The total cost will work out at £120,000 a berth at least. I know one excellent shipyard in the North that has been able to add berths to its yard at a cost of about £40,000 a berth, and it can turn out vessels as large and as good as could ever be constructed at Chepstow. The total cost of the yards when finished will be bad enough, but let us turn to the sites. I think my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Sunderland (Sir Hamar Greenwood) was carried away in his enthusiasm for Sunderland. Sunderland is a great shipbuilding centre, and it reflects great credit upon my hon. and gallant Friend, but I am not at all sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol will be so pleased with his description of the sites in the West of England. Indeed, as far as Beachley and Portbury are concerned, the sites are good, but I am afraid that my hon. Friend will say that they are in the wrong part of England. I venture to say that if he could find sites at Sunderland as good, the value of the Wear would be greatly increased. Chepstow was not a good site. It is no use saying that there are shipowners who joined together to buy this Chepstow yard. If they had been left alone they would have been producing ships already, and that it is because they were interfered with that vessels have not been forthcoming. They were not a shipbuilding group but a shipowning group, and they were warned by shipbuilders that they had not chosen the best part of the world for the erection of a shipyard. Sitting next to the First Lord of the Admiralty is the Leader of the House, and I have no doubt that he has the same belief in the Clyde as my hon. and gallant Friend has in the Wear. But there is one thing that distinguishes the Clyde from the Severn. The Clyde is a good deal colder than the Severn.

    It is true that it has nothing like the rise and fall of tide as the Severn, and it has other qualities which go to make it a great shipbuilding centre even greater than the Wear.

    Let the right hon. Gentleman be exact and accurate. I said that Sunderland produced more tonnage per annum than any other single town, not river. That is its glory, and that is the fact.

    I will leave Sunderland to the care of my hon. and gallant Friend. I repeat: There has always been this distinction between North country yards and South country yards. The Clyde climate has a great deal to do with the amount of work that can be turned out. That is a simple, well-known fact in shipbuilding circles, and there are other advantages. If Lord Pirrie devotes his attention and the attention of his director in Belfast to these yards he can make them a success. Under what terms can he make them a success? That is really the question that we have to discuss. The original scheme was to provide for military, unskilled, and prison labour. It is absolutely impossible to employ prison labour there and get your fabrication created. If you try to do it, you will have trouble with labour which you cannot ignore. I offer no criticism of General Collard except this. General Collard's experience in Nigeria can have taught him absolutely nothing about the management of English labour and shipbuilders. He showed great driving force and great energy there in the creation of the place which has been referred to several times, but he has not been distinguished by success either in the management of labour or of shipbuilders, and that fact must be known to the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty. The employment of that labour has now been abandoned, and the scheme, if it is to work at all, is only to be brought into operation after the private yards have been fully occupied, namely, not until the extra seventy-three berths referred to at Question Time today are in full working order. Lord Pirrie was well advised in making that statement immediately he came into office. It has allayed a great deal of anxiety not only among shipbuilders, who were naturally anxious upon this subject, but also among Members of this House, who were also somewhat disturbed at the idea of shipbuilding centres being removed from their constituencies. He realised that to extend yards and to build in areas where there are fully organised staffs, where they understand shipbuilding from top to bottom, where for generations they have been connected with the sea, and, what is more, where in normal times you have the labour on the spot, was the surest way of getting quick output.

    The only way in which these yards can be worked is by bringing the labour to these places. What the House really has in mind in supporting the hon. Member in his Motion for the Adjournment to-night is the question: How are you going to supply the labour? There is no doubt that there is some scheme on foot of some greater capacity than that outlined by the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Sir N. Griffiths) when he said that in the course of his journey in the train he estimated that from £70,000 to £100,000 was all that was necessary for the housing of the men who would be required. I cannot imagine what men he was thinking of. He must have been thinking of the Royal Engineers. He cannot possibly have been thinking of the men in the shipyards. He did not mean that these yards were going to be worked with thirty-four men to the berth, The thing is absolutely impossible. I think we are entitled to ask how many men are going to be employed. It is not giving any information to the enemy to say that there are going to be 5,000, 6,000, or 10,000. I am inclined to think that it will be 10,000. You must know the number, and, if you are going to house 10,000 men, you will not do it for £70,000 or £100,000

    Yes, and their families, too. A certain number of married men are going to be taken down there when the yards are fully equipped. The Admiralty have proceeded with this housing scheme. They are anticipating the movement of 10,000 men there. Where are the 10,000 men to come from? There is not a single industry in the country that is not short of labour at the present time, and the vital industries are as short as any others. The First Lord of the Admiralty knows about railways.

    The right hon. Gentleman was longer at railways than he has ever been at shipbuilding. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the railways have not too much labour. It will be impossible to allow men to go from the railways. He said something in the course of his remarks about men being used for the purposes of agriculture. The whole House knows—I think it was during his absence—that we had a discussion upon that subject. We are so short of labour in agriculture that the President of the Board of Agriculture has told us that he has grave fears about the gathering in of this year's harvest. There are certainly not too many men employed in the iron trade. If you turn to any one of the trades upon which our national existence now depends, you will find a shortage of labour. It is most marked in the shipyards. I doubt whether there is a shipyard anywhere in the country that could not employ more men. The reason we are short in our output now is obviously not because we are short of material. I understand that material is now forthcoming much more freely than it was before. Certainly in some districts they have as much material as they can go on with for some little time. What they are short of is labour. How are you going to help these efficient private yards to produce more ships if you abstract any of their labour? You say that one skilled man in forty is to be used in these national shipyards If that is the estimate made by Lord Pirrie, I accept it at once, because I know he would not make a wrong estimate. He has had too much experience in this sort of thing to make a wrong estimate. But even with one man in forty you must still have skilled men. You have only to take the total number of 10,000 unskilled men and apply it to the situation as it is to-day to see that hundreds of skilled men must be drawn in some way or other from the private yards. What private yards? There is not a private yard which is not short of skilled as well as of unskilled labour. In spite of all the dilution of labour, there is not enough to go round.

    10.0 P.M.

    The fault that is found with this scheme is that, as it stands at present, its basis is not that of prisoner labour or military labour, it is not even that we have reached an agreement at this belated hour with the trade unions. The only way it can be started is by crippling the private yards. If the Government do that, they will be making a grave error from a national point of view. I know that there is sometimes a tendency in some quarters to believe that private yards are always endeavouring somehow or other to bolster up private as against State industry. If State yards would produce more ships than private yards, let us sacrifice the private yards. The provision of more ships rapidly is the first necessity, but we have found the national yards, so far from producing more rapidly, have crippled the arrangements made in many directions; they have embarrassed the Department itself, and up to the present no single vessel has been produced from any one of these three sites. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the system of fabricated ships. Far be it from me to deprecate any new idea in construction. The world is learning a great deal with regard to novelties in the course of this War. It may be that experience in America will show that the normal English way of constructing vessels, good as it may be for times of peace, is not rapid enough for times of war. I myself have grave doubts about the quality of the tonnage that is being produced in America. It is quite possible that when the War is over we shall be able to regain the shipbuilding position which we are rapidly losing on account of the quality of the tonnage we produce. I agree that what is necessary at the present day is to have as many bottoms afloat as we can secure which will carry the men and materials required. If having fabricated ships is the easiest way of getting them, by all means let us have fabricated ships. I must confess that we hear a great deal of exaggeration about the virtues of standard ships. In spite of that exaggeration, private shipbuilders have not been averse to taking on fabricated ships. Some of them, in the first instance, thought it was a mistake to embark upon them, but I know that some of them have actually constructed fabricated ships. It was only one part of the original national shipyard scheme. Will it be believed that at least one private yard has been started in the North, has been completed, and has already turned out three fabricated ships, while the national yards have done nothing but absorb money! I do not believe that any man except Lord Pirrie could rescue this scheme from complete disaster. He can go on with his work in the full assurance that he has the sympathy of this House. Both he and the Government must realise that the best and most economical way of producing ships is to use the existing organisation, machinery, and shipyards to the full before embarking on the diversion of any labour whatever to the national shipyards. The desire to use the name of the Director of Shipbuilding in support of this scheme was very natural. I would point out, however, that he only came into office two months ago. His responsibility for the scheme is very clearly defined; it starts from the time he took over the national shipyards. He is not responsible for anything that happened before. The First Lord of the Admiralty is the person who was responsible for everything that took place before the Director of Merchant Shipping came into office. The First Lord is responsible for it now, and answers for it in this House, but he was more directly responsible then than he was at any other time. He is to be congratulated on having most excellent assistance, but however excellent the assistance may be, the House has a right to express great anxiety, as it has tonight, that there is to be further large expenditure on these national yards, which, up to the present, have produced nothing, and that the private yards indirectly will suffer from a transference of labour from them to these expensive national concerns.

    This House benefits by having representatives from the workers' point of view in connection with questions which are under discussion. Being one of the modest Members from the North, I do not want to assume an egotistical position, but I believe I am the only Member of the House who can approach the subject from the practical point of view. My hon. Friend the Member for Morley (Mr. France) and our Canadian Friend the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland (Sir H. Greenwood) have spoken from one point of view. I want to approach it from another. I am not antagonistic to national yards. I am not against the First Lord or the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty because they are not shipbuilders. I have heard a lot about their inexperience and inefficiency, but I do not forget that the late Lord Armstrong was a lawyer and yet one of the greatest shipbuilders the world has ever known. Reference has been made to the First Lord's connection with railways. All that I can wish is that he were back again on the North-Eastern Railway to give us some of the privileges we had in the past but which we do not enjoy now. The last time this question was discussed a former Civil Lord of the Admiralty, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Molton (Mr. G. Lambert), complained strongly, and I think very rightly, that before the Admiralty or the Government or the War Cabinet entered on this scheme of national shipyards at this moment of emergency they ought to have consulted the employers. I say, as I said on the 13th December, 1917, that they ought to have consulted some of us who had risked our positions and even our lives to assist our country and the, Government. We were not consulted. We still contend that if both sides had been consulted a great deal of the present difficulty would have been obviated. What is the difficulty? The First Lord has more or less glossed it over to-night. I know nothing about General Collard, and I am not going to say a word about him. He and others may be the best men for the purpose. But they have not had experience of shipbuilding in this country. Something has been said about shipbuilding elsewhere. I have visited the places that have been talked about. At the present moment I do not desire to say a word of what is being done across the Atlantic. Time will tell. They will find out, as we have done in the past, all about the difficulties. If they live for another year we will say, "God bless you! Go on, do all you can with their ships and the men!" The point of the difficulty I want the First Lord of the Admiralty to understand is—they have talked about building ships without skilled labour. I need scarcely controvert that view. I do not care what ships they are—regular, assembled, or standard. You must have a good percentage of highly-skilled constructors before you can build these ships, no matter what they are. The authorities forget they can only get them from us, because shipyard labour is thoroughly organised in all its branches. Yet they never consulted the employers or us how the thing could be done. We are all willing to assist the Government. Some of us who have met the Admiralty and First Lords sympathise thoroughly with their difficulties, and we have thought that they should have consulted us more than they have done. For the sake of our country we were willing to do all we could to help. I am speaking now in the presence of Lord Pirrie, whom I have known since I was a lad at the shipyard. We know that with his experience he will look at it from the great point—that is, the turning out of more ships for the benefit of our country. You cannot build these ships at Chepstow. I do not care whether it is a good place or not. What we cannot understand is taking shipyards to places where you have neither men, nor machinery, nor houses, nor anything. That is the practical point, and I speak us a practical workman. I want to ask the Admiralty as to whether it is or is not a fact that in some of their Admiralty yards berths have been filled where ships could have been built now with all the machinery sheds around them. I refer to what were empty berths. How is it that every one of these empty berths in these yards have not been filled up?

    When you talk about private yards, as I distinctly said on 13th December, we should have no private yards at present. They should all have been taken over by the Government, because you really now are, in effect—only under a different name—paying the workmen's wages, the manager's salaries, and the dividends of the shareholders—at all events, you are doing it on the railways. Why not, then, have taken over the shipyards and eliminated—and this is the great thing—from the minds of the workmen that they are simply working for private profit, and not for their country? You could do that if you only grasped the nettle. On 13th December I drew attention to the delay there might be in getting the national shipyards ready, and said they were going to be of no use to the nation during the War, because it would take from eighteen months to two years before you could get the machinery, foundations and works laid down. We have had some experience of that. Apparently they were going to be worked by military labour and German prisoners. I do not know whose brain evolved that idea, but I say, as a Britisher, you suggested that British workmen should work alongside German prisoners, building ships. No, never! There is plenty of work for the German prisoners to do, and to keep them clear of men who have gone to sea and been massacred by them. The Government certainly is entitled to use all the German prisoners they can, and other work can be found for them. Then upon another matter. As soon as Lord Pirrie was appointed we approached him, to point out various matters. We pointed out that a promise was given by the Government—and it has been repeatedly told us in this House—that if the workmen were brought back from the Army and put to shipyard or other work—and do not forget we have 2,000 of the members of my society who volunteered to go to the front, and who have now come back to the trade at the request of both the last and the present Prime Minister—and when they came back we had a promise, if they came from the Army, they would come back as civilians and be paid a civilian wage. This proposal was in entire opposition to that promise. Hence the feeling that the men have held in every quarter of the country of which we now know. We have been informed by Lord Pirrie, who, I believe, is now in the House, that the work is to be done according to the promise of the Government, and that is, if our men go back into civilian life, they will be civilians and be paid civilian wages. That is the only way, it seems to me, that we can give the men evidence of good faith, and get the output of more ships expedited. I have nothing more, I think, to say on the question from the workers' point of view, except this, that as the Mover and Seconder of the Resolution have pointed out, we should endeavour to get clear of the idea of the national shipyards being run on different lines to the others. If we are to have national shipyards, I say, for goodness sake nationalise all the shipyards, and get clear of all difficulty. If you do not do that, then you cannot build ships with military labour or the labour of prisoners alone, for you must have a given percentage of real shipbuilding constructors, who must be taken from the other yards. The empty berths in the other yards should be filled, for here there are men and material, and the work can be expeditiously turned out, and there will be no more useless expenditure.

    I must express my surprise to the First Lord of the Admiralty at the way in which he endeavoured to persuade the House that Lord Pirrie was so enthusiastic about this scheme. My colleagues on the Sub-Committee have had the advantage of having had Lord Pirrie present on two occasions. They regretted that they had not the opportunity of having the First Lord of the Admiralty there.

    I would most certainly have attended, but was out of the country on business.

    I said that we regretted we did not have the pleasure of hearing the First Lord of the Admiralty, but I hope we may do so on some future occasion. My hon. Friends will bear me out when I tell the House that Lord Pirrie, when he gave evidence, did not convey to us the impression which the First Lord wishes to convey, that Lord Pirrie had been asked if in May, 1917, when the First Lord of the Admiralty was responsible for proposing the scheme to the Cabinet, he would have been a party to such a scheme. I think I rightly express the view of Lord Pirrie when I say he would not; and I may go further and say that when Lord Pirrie became Controller—I endorse every word which was said of the great benefit it is to have Lord Pirrie in this post—when he came there he was undecided as to what scheme should be adopted with regard to national shipbuilding. It is all very well for my right hon. Friend to say that it was impossible to frame estimates. I think that is what he said. Why was it more impossible to-frame estimates in July, 1917, than in December, 1917? In December, 1917, estimates were forthcoming, because in October, 1917, the Sub-Committee of the Admiralty on national expenditure insisted on estimates being forthcoming.

    My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has many difficult tasks, but I venture the opinion that he has none more difficult than controlling the present First Lord of the Admiralty. When he accepted the position of Controller of the Admiralty, which I think was in May or June of 1917, one of the first things he asked for was that he should be empowered to employ a vast staff of men, without resort to the Treasury, at salaries of £500 and £1,000 a year. With that staff the right hon. Gentleman could have done his work efficiently and gone through the right procedure and framed estimates. I maintain that the House and the country has a great grievance against the First Lord of the Admiralty, because he embarked on this gigantic scheme without estimating what the cost would be. I was very surprised also to hear from the First Lord that Lord Pirrie had decided to send to Chepstow, or to one of the other places where these national shipyards are, one of his managing directors from Belfast, and also a skilled staff, including draughtsmen. I am getting more and more mixed over the whole concern. Why send a gentleman of the high standing as the manager of Messrs. Harland and Wolff and a highly trained staff to Chepstow to make draughts for ships when you have not got the labour, as the First Lord admits, to carry on the work? I believe I am right in saying that it is the policy of Lord Pirrie not to construct ships in these yards until all the other yards are fully supplied with labour. Therefore, in the name of goodness, why go to the expense of diverting from Belfast to Chepstow skilled men of high standing? What have they to do when they get there? The First Lord says that the national shipyards are going to be a great success ultimately. I hope to goodness they will. Neither nor any other hon. Member desire that after all this lavish expenditure there should be no return. May I ask the First Lord, if ever he does make an estimate, if he will do it from the commercial point of view, and if he will take the capital expenditure on these yards, reckon the interest on the capital, and see how the expenditure will compare with that in private yards. The right hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) said that every berth in these national shipyards would cost £120,000. I think he is well under the estimate. When we had the estimate for £3,800,000 for these national yards it was before the increase of 12½ per cent., and I shall be very much surprised, even deducting the £500,000, if these thirty-four berths are constructed below the figure of £4,000,000. Therefore, I think my right hon. Friend is taking too optimistic a view altogether.

    Let me come to the housing scheme. I know the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty (Dr. Macnamara) is a great enthusiast for housing schemes. I am quite in agreement with him. I am an enthusiast for housing schemes, but why was not this housing scheme embarked upon when the scheme for the yards was embarked upon instead of relying upon the system of housing military and prisoner labour, which now is found to be absolutely useless. One hon. Member spoke of £70,000 or £100,00 for the housing scheme. The First Lord of the Admiralty said he reckoned there would be 10,000 men at these yards when construction of ships is started. These 10,000 men will want at least 2,000 houses, and as a house cannot be got for less than £400 this means an expenditure of £800,000. The hon. Member for Morley and the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland were quite right in bringing this matter forward. I go further and say that the matter cannot be left where the First Lord of the Admiralty left it to-night. We must know, because Parliament has a right to know, what will be the cost of this housing scheme, when it will be started, and what will be the conditions of the scheme. Is it to be by contract?

    I wish the Chancellor of the Exchequer were here. It is time that the Treasury exercised more control over the Admiralty than at the present time. The whole procedure and the whole record of these national shipyards reflect not only upon the First Lord of the Admiralty, who is primarily responsible, but upon the Treasury and the Government as a whole for allowing it to be proceeded with without due consideration and without proper estimates as to the expenditure to be incurred.

    The explanation of the First, Lord of the Admiralty is singularly unconvincing. First take the statement that an estimate was impossible. Before you can know that the work is feasible you must have some idea of what it will cost. You cannot even tell that engineering operations are possible without forming some idea of what the cost is going to be. The First Lord said that it was a matter of delay, to tell how much it was going to cost. How much time does it take? We know that there is between the Admiralty and the Treasury a most admirable system of conference by which any scheme which the Admiralty wish to carry out can obtain Treasury consent by an oral conference in something like twenty-four hours. The Treasury consent could have been got in less than twenty-four hours if the Admiralty had prepared their estimate, so that there is no foundation for the suggestion that any material delay could have been possibly occasioned by the obtaining of an estimate. It is not the fact that it was considerations of time, and of time alone, that justified the First Lord of the Admiralty in not preparing an estimate. I can entirely corroborate what has been said by the hon. Baronet who has just sat down with regard to Lord Pirrie. I was present also as a member of the Committee, and Lord Pirrie gave evidence before us, and he stated in the most explicit terms that he would not have been a party to the origination of the scheme There can be no doubt about it, on the part of any person who was present when Lord Pirrie gave evidence, and though no doubt it is true that he is in favour of going on with the scheme now, having regard to the position in which the country is involved, it is not fair to quote Lord Pirrie as a defender of the scheme, because it is quite certain that if he had been consulted when the matter was a clean sheet he would have been opposed to the scheme. The whole project was originally based on a calculation with regard to labour which everybody ought to have known was an unsound calculation. The Government thought that they could carry on these great shipyards with German prisoner labour and with conscript labour. This military labour is really conscript labour. Men are being brought into the Army for the purpose of being compelled to work in shipyards. They are not people who were brought into the Army originally as soldiers and were then found unsuitable, but persons who were deliberately enlisted in the Army not for the purpose of fighting but for civil work, and many of them have had no military training whatever.

    The hon. Member is hardly justified in calling this conscript labour. A great many of these men are over military age, who enlisted voluntarily for the purpose, I admit, of this labour.

    One of the principal reasons for raising the military age was to bring in men for this particular class of work. Anybody ought to have known that trade union labour in this country would never assent to the employment of these men for the purpose of putting together fabricated ships. The reason for choosing these particular sites was that it was contemplated to employ this labour. Had the Government realised that they were going to employ civil labour in building these ships they would not have chosen these sites. They were chosen not because they were good sites for shipbuilding, but because they were the best sites for shipbuilding that could be found out of sight of trade union labour. Directly that factor disappears, the whole scheme falls to the ground. Had the Government intended to use civilian labour from the beginning, they would have chosen a very different and more suitable place to create the shipyard, and where it could have been established with economy. Then the housing scheme involved very great difficulty. I think the House has been rather misled on this point, because the Government had to fall back on civilian labour, and the housing scheme, being an essential part of the project—unless they were going to scrap the yard—ought really to have been added to the original estimate. In regard to the slipways, there was an economy of £500,000. That scheme was turned down directly Lord Pirrie came to examine it, and I believe the Committee suggested that even before Lord Pirrie. In fact, £50,000 was wanted at the commencement to carry out that scheme. Then take the case of the Chepstow Yard. I think it was admitted, as the Committee say in their Report, that the Chepstow is a very bad site. Lord Pirrie, than whom no one can speak better as to its deficiencies, gave evidence to that effect. It is a very bad site, with almost every possible difficulty. From the point of view of situation, it is exceedingly bad. It is at the bottom of a hole, and it is very hot in summer. It is near a small, miserable town. [An HON. MEMBER: "A beautiful town!"] Not beautiful from the point of view of the work of a shipyard, though it may be beautiful from the point of view of gentlemen who want only to look at it. As a member of the Committee I went with two members of the Committee to make an inspection of the place, and I can only say that I should be surprised if any person who had ever seen a shipyard would put 1d. into it. I am pleased that none of my money will ever go into it except through the action of this House. What we really want to know is what is the best policy in the future as regards the yard. Is it really better to go on with housing, under the idea that there will be a large quantity of labour for the building of ships, in view of the fact that there is really more urgent work waiting to be carried out? As I ventured to suggest the other day, would it not be better to turn all this labour to making sure of the harvest; or would it not be better to turn the labour to the more useful operation of completing the work in the private yards? With regard to fabricated ships and the proportion of labour required, I think the statements which have been made are rather misleading. The parts which have to be assembled have to be made elsewhere, and they are simply doing the same work that would be done in the shipbuilding yard. Although I think it is not a complete balance, to a considerable extent you are transferring skilled labour from one place of work to another, and therefore it cannot be quoted as if you were simply saving skilled labour.

    Of course, a fabricated ship is a speculation; it may be quite right; none of us really know that, and nobody could take it upon himself to say it will not be a success. It may be a success, though I think most of us are rather doubtful as regards the quality, and the success of British shipping has depended on quality quite as much as on quantity. I think the Government have clearly made a mistake in entering upon this scheme at all—and, indeed, they themselves have condemned their own original scheme. Is it really so that it is better to go on with the scheme and that the money and the labour which the Government are going to spend on Chepstow and Portbury is going to produce more results than the same amount of labour and money spent in other directions? I do not think the Government have proved that proposition, and it is up to them to prove it. I think my hon. Friend who proposed this Motion ought, if they do not succeed in establishing their proposition, to persevere in the action which he has taken.

    I was, unfortunately, unable to be present at the earlier part of the Debate, and, therefore, I do not feel justified in saying very much on this subject, but I feel called upon to make one or two remarks to prevent any mistake as to the responsibility which this House is called upon to throw on either the First Lord or the Government or somebody else. In attempting to fix any responsibility for what has been done in regard to these national shipyards the House should carefully remember the conditions in June, 1917, which were very much influenced by the appalling rate of sinkage which had gone on shortly before that time. The Government was faced with an extraordinarily alarming state of affairs at that moment, and it is only just to say that any consideration of this question now must be viewed not so much from what we know to-day, but from what was the evidence before the Government at that time. My right hon. Friend below me (Mr. Runciman) said that at the present time there was practically no labour to spare in any direction, and that is, of course, quite undeniable. Probably the only place where you could find any labour to spare at the present time is from the lower grades in the military categories—from soldiers in the lower grades or discharged soldiers—but the point is what was the position when the scheme came before the Cabinet?

    The position then was really an alarming one, and I gather that this scheme was entered into on a full understanding that the private yards would be developed and used to their fullest capacity, and that when that question was examined it was found that, even when they were developed to their full capacity, the requirements would not be met. This scheme was put forward, rightly or wrongly, I presume on the authority of the First Lord of the Admiralty, and was based on a certain assumption, namely, on making sure of what was then anticipated to be the only source of labour to begot in addition to that already in existence in shipyards, and that was military and prisoner labour. This scheme was entered upon on the assumption that that military labour could be used, and I think the acquiescence in the scheme by the War Cabinet was only justified on one of two conditions. One was that they could, and intended to, employ military labour, and, if they decided on that line, to persevere in it and carry it through at all costs. That was one assumption. The other assumption was that, before embarking on the use of military labour, they would make arrangements with the trade unions, and make sure before spending the money that it would be feasible to employ that class of labour. The fault I have to find with the Government is that they fell between two stools, or changed horses in crossing a stream, which, I think, more correctly describes it. They changed their policy in the middle. They started out in the belief that the first idea was possible and to carry it through at all costs, and eventually they have come to the conclusion that they have to accept the conditions they can with labour. I think that is an unfortunate position, because, obviously, if it had been intended to work these yards with civilian labour, they would not have been built under the conditions in which they have been built.

    I do not wish to go further into this matter to-night. I hope we may have another opportunity of discussing it later, but I wish to point out that this shows the extraordinary difficulty even in war-time in accepting a policy which will take more than a very few months to carry out, because in a policy of this kind, which it was known would take a very considerable period to carry out, it was almost certain that there would be a change of man or a change of conditions which would make it impossible to carry the policy through to a conclusion. I am pretty well convinced that if the whole thing could have been carried through in a few months it would have been done, and it would have been under the first of the two conditions I have named; but, owing to the delay and the time over which the whole matter has been spread, the personnel of the Admiralty having changed, and so on, the conditions, which held good at the beginning have not been able to be maintained at the end, and I think that is an unfortunate position. I do not think one can altogether compare this with the Loch Doon case. It is not quite so bad in one sense, except that there is more money. In the case of Loch Doon the country spent half a million before it discovered that it usually rains on the West Coast of Scotland. In this case a good deal has been spent before discovering that trade unions will not put up with military labour. Beyond that I do not think the analogy can be drawn. I hope we shall have another opportunity of discussing this. For the moment, I thought I was called upon to say one or two words to-night on account of some of the remarks made.

    I have tried so frequently, though quite inadequately, to defend the national shipyards in the last few months that I should like to say a few words on some of the points that have been raised. I greatly appreciate the comment of the hon. Member (Mr. Mason), and his remark that we should all try to project our minds into the position, the alarming position as he called it, which confronted the country in June, 1917, when the scheme was put before the War Cabinet. If we do that we shall get the right perspective. Some of the comments which have been offered to-night seem to suggest that these national shipyards were an utter fiasco, that 4,000,000 good British sovereigns have been absolutely thrown away, and I rather think it was the idea of my hon. Friend (Mr. Holt) that we should shut the yards and cut our losses.

    I thought I was not misinterpreting my hon. Friend. It has been put in such a way that we were in a panic, and we rushed into this thing at someone's suggestion without due consideration. I would remind the House of the statement I had to make on behalf of the Admiralty on 3rd July:

    "The whole question of the shipbuilding resources of the country was placed before the War Cabinet in July, 1917, by the then First Lord, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University, who put in the comprehensive survey—it is so described in the Fourth Report of the Select Committee—which had been prepared by the then Navy Controller, the present First Lord. That comprehensive survey led up to a number of proposals, and these were contingent upon a series of objectives to be aimed at as regards output of new merchant tonnage."
    The figure which was accepted, which was, I think, suggested by the Shipping Controller, would involve the starting of three national shipyards, and thereafter, when the proposal, which involved the three shipyards, was agreed in principle, and then, after a Sub-Committee of the War Cabinet, of which I think Lord Curzon was chairman——

    I do not want to press my right hon. Friend too far, but he says the estimate was the estimate of the Shipping Controller. I understand at the time he is speaking of merchant shipbuilding was under the control of the Admiralty and not of the Shipping Controller.

    Let me make that clear. I said the survey included a certain number of objections as to new merchant tonnage output which should meet our needs in the situation in which we found ourselves. The figure which was suggested and which was concurred in by the First Lord as the figure of output which was necessary was. I think, concurred in, if not suggested, by the Shipping Controller, and to reach that figure you not only had to extend existing yards, besides a great many other proposals and schemes for improving plant, but you had to start additional shipbuilding resources in the shape of these three national yards. That was agreed to in principle, and subsequently looked into in detail. No estimated was submitted, says my right hon. Friend (Mr. Runciman), and the Committee of National Expenditure having discovered that fact—I am sure he did not mean it to bear a sinister interpretation——

    "Disclosed" was the word. There was no discovery. The estimate had been submitted to the Treasury—I have it before me now—on 28th January, 1918. On 13th November I said, in reply to my hon. Friend (Mr. Lambert):

    "The right hon. Gentleman is fully aware of the vital necessity of proceeding with the utmost expedition in the provision of new merchant tonnage to make good the loss by enemy submarines. He knows that in order that this provision may not be delayed it is essential to short-circuit some of the traditional peace procedure. As I have already said, as soon as they can be prepared, the estimates will be placed in the hands of the Treasury."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th November, 1917, col. 227, Vol. 99.]
    That was on the 13th November, and they were so placed on the 28th January. My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham paid a tribute to the Emergency Standing Committee, and asked why the matter was not referred to that body. But the Treasury would not have considered a detailed estimate of this sort, running into very considerable figures, by the method of the Emergency Standing Committee, which could not possibly transact business of such a character.

    My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor says there was a change of policy with regard to the manning of the yards for the purpose of shipbuilding. That is so, but there was no change of policy as to the building of the yards. They will be built, and are being built, by prisoner labour and by military men. What is the position? The relations of Lord Pirrie with labour have always been of the most cordial character. If we had gone on as proposed we would have been guilty, it was said, of a breach of faith. It would have been said it was industrial conscription. It was suggested to us, roughly speaking, four months ago, when the question of new merchant shipping was all-important, when every rivet driven home meant another American soldier earlier in the field, that we ought not to contemplate upsetting the whole labour market, and so there was a change of policy, but not with regard to building of the yards, but in regard to the assembling of ships in the yards. The First Lord has stated that a smaller number of skilled men will be required for these special fabricated ships. There has been a good deal of instruction in regard to the use of pneumatic tools, and men who have been taught to use these tools will be transferred from the Engineers to W Reserve, placed under civilian authority, and paid civilian rates. With a very much smaller proportion of skilled men needed we hope to be able to get sufficient men without withdrawing labour from other yards, although, I agree, there is a shortage in certain directions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Runciman) appears to be under a misapprehension as to the amount of money involved for housing. There is already in this estimate—I hope I shall not be pressed for details, as it contains confidential figures as to tonnage—an item for housing, a considerable figure within the region of £300,000. It is for hutments for soldiers. This provision can be used for the single men who will be employed to put the fabricated ships together, but we still have to provide buildings for the families of the married men. My point is that we have already got a large amount of provision in hand under the original estimate. I hope I have made that point quite clear. Hon. Members speak as if the national shipyards were the only places where the housing problem came in, but you find that problem wherever you go, and it is not quite fair to raise that problem merely in connection with the national yards. Here we have already a considerable amount of our needs at hand, for we have the huts which were orignally intended for the Engineers. I do not know what Lord Pirrie told the Committee, but I know that on the 26th June Lord Pirrie issued the following statement in regard to British shipbuilding and the national shipyards:
    "I have lately had an opportunity of visiting the national shipyards and of going carefully into the whole scheme. These yards were conceived solely with the idea of re-erecting fabricated ships manufactured at the bridge and other constructional engineering works in the centre of England, and in my opinion this policy, which was initiated by my predecessors, is one which is calculated greatly to increase the output of merchant ships, so much so that I have decided that the units constructed by the bridge-building firms for the first nine of the fabricated ships, which were to have been laid down in the national yards, are to be transferred to private yards. This is not only following out the policy that the private yards are to have preference, but the output from these yards would incidentally be improved, as the shipbuilders in question agree with me that they can produce more tonnage by this means.
    The progress made at the national yards is remarkable and reflects the greatest credit on all concerned. It is essential, however, that the construction of the yards should be finished before shipbuilding is started. It would be an easy matter to start laying down keels at the national yards to-day, but in my opinion we shall get finished ships more quickly if we delay the actual building until the construction of the yards is complete.
    I am assuming personal responsibility for the running of the national shipyards and believe they will form a great asset to the nation and a means of substantially increasing the output of merchant ships."
    No doubt the House would desire some further consideration of this matter and would like Vote 8 to be put down as originally proposed. So far as we are concerned at the Admiralty we wish to meet that desire, and if we can more closely define our housing proposals we will endeavour to get the details and all other possible information which we can give.

    The explanation which has been given by the right hon. Gentleman has left the House unsatisfied, and I welcome the announcement that the Admiralty will be ready to give a further opportunity at an early date. It is clear that notwithstanding the admonitions of the Committee on National Expenditure the Admiralty has not yet lost the habit of procrastination in regard to the preparation of estimates. [HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"]

    rose in his place and claimed to move "That the Question be now put," but Mr. Deputy-Speaker withheld his assent, and declined then to put that Question.

    The Committee ascertained that millions were being spent without any adequate idea of the amount or any Estimate having been framed as to the lines on which the money had been spent.

    It being Eleven of the clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

    Parliament And Local Elections Bill

    Again considered in Committee.

    [Sir D. MACLEAN in the Chair.]

    Postponed Proceeding on consideration of Clause 2 resumed.

    I was moving my Amendment when the interruption for the Motion for the Adjournment came. I will not repeat the reasons that I have given in favour of postponing the county council elections. I will only point out that no provision exists for enabling persons who are on war service to vote. In the next place, the personnel of the county councils will suffer, because it will be impossible to get business men to stand in March. If we are going to have both a Parliamentary election in January and a county council election in March, it will cause great disorganisation in national and municipal work. I hope, therefore, that the Government, either in this Bill or in some future Bill, will arrange to postpone the county council elections.

    The object of the Amendment is to extend the postponement of elections to the elections which take place on 1st March next year. My hon. Friend has explained that he speaks, as he always does most cogently, on behalf of the London County Council, and he has told us that the London County Council is unanimously of opinion that this Bill should extend to county council elections, and that we should make it obligatory upon the London County Council to continue after 1st March as it at present exists—no election for that council or any county council to take place on 1st March next. The Government had to choose a day. They came to the conclusion that it was justifiable to postpone all November elections, but it would not be justifiable at present to decide that the March elections should not take place. After all, it is a little difficult to see four months ahead, and it is not possible to say what the conditions may be eight months from now. I think, therefore, that the Government have done wisely to say that the Bill shall only operate practically on the November elections. It is possible that there may be a General Election between now and 1st March, but I do not think that anybody would argue that that ought to render it impossible to have the local elections following on 1st March.

    Let me comfort my hon. Friend by saying that if the Government became aware, say, at the end of December, that the circumstances were such that it would be most undesirable to hold the elections so early as March, it would be perfectly possible for them—and the Government will certainly reconsider the position—to come down to the House and take it into their confidence. It would be quite possible for them to frame a one-Clause Bill, and at the end of December, or even in January, to ask the House to consent to it, whereby all elections for county councils, urban district councils, rural district councils, and boards of guardians, which take place in March or April, would be postponed. I think the Government have come to a wise decision not to look further ahead than four months, and to leave it to the House in December or January to say whether or not they think it necessary to postpone the elections which would take place in March or April.

    Every argument except one put forward by the Mover of this Amendment on behalf of the London County Council in favour of having their elections postponed to next April twelvemonth would apply equally well to elections for Parliament. The exception was the argument that the Representation of the People Act did not give the soldiers the same power and privilege of voting at county council elections as at Parliamentary elections. The proper way to meet that argument is not to extend the time for holding county council elections, which the Government have agreed not to do at present, but to slightly amend the Representation of the People Act by giving soldiers the same opportunities for getting on the register and voting at county council elections as they have in respect to Parliamentary elections. That would place both elections on the same basis. The argument that there would not be candidates coming forward in April next will be very comforting to those who are standing. The same argument would apply also to Parliament. If there are not going to be candidates for the county council on account of the War, then for the same reason there will be no candidates for Parliament. I am one of those who do not believe that there is anything in these arguments about not having an election during the War. Excluding soldiers, the people who are going to vote at an election can easily spend fifteen or twenty minutes or even an hour casting their votes, without in any way interfering with their war work. The hon. Gentleman said that members of the county council themselves are in favour of having the election postponed. Probably hon. Members in this House might, for the same reason, be in favour of having elections postponed for a year or longer. That is not an argument at all. It is not a question of what hon. Members of this House or of the county council think; it is a question, surely, of what the people of the country want! The argument, too, was noted the other day on Second Reading that there was such an increase in the electorate! But that applies equally to the county council and other elections as to Parliamentary. Women will vote at them. I understand that the women teachers of the county council of London have a great grievance on the salary question against the council. They and their friends have votes, and they will be sure to show by them to the county council that it is desirable to have enough salary to keep body and soul together while endeavouring to do their work. There has been a general election for the Dominions. There have been, I think, local elections in almost every province; in the minor ten provinces of Canada there has been a local election in every one during the War. It has caused no trouble. The Canadian people are just as much engaged in the War as are the people here. They have the same problems to meet. The circumstances there are just about the same as here. The elections here hurt nobody. This House I am addressing is moribund, without any idea of what the people really want. Instead of administering the affairs of the country in the light of present conditions we are back into 1910, nearly eight years ago——

    That, I think, has nothing to do with this Clause.

    Well, the hon. Gentleman has put these arguments forward. He said, "You could not have elections during the War, for you could not get candidates or the people to vote." I say there is nothing in that. What the people really want is a new Parliament, newly-elected bodies, so that when questions come up we do not deal with them by the ideals of eight or ten years ago, but in the light of the new ideals that have arisen during this great War.

    I am astonished at the line taken by the representative of the London County Council. He seemed to believe that they could very properly represent their constituents although it is many years since they were elected. I happen to sit on a body in London which contains a delegation from the London County Council. They sing a different tune there to what we have heard to-night. They pose as super-men because of their close touch with the electorate and the vast majorities they get. The President of the Local Government Board heard a little of that doctrine at the deputation this morning. But there are some also who utterly refuse to go to constituencies; who want to refrain from that great pleasure for twelve months or longer. We must not deny the London County Council the unspeakable happiness of meeting their constituents, following the view of those connected with the body to which I have referred.

    This Amendment which has been proposed by the hon. Member for Paddington (Sir H. Harris) is that an extension of time for the election of the London County Council should be made for a year from March. The measure is that the life of this Parliament should be preserved for six months longer, and the life of local authorities generally should be preserved a year after November, while the suggestion of the hon. Member for Paddington is that the county council of London, the county councils of England, and the boards of guardians should have their lives preserved for even longer than that—for a year after March. Why the London Members should have that privilege, God only knows! They are spoilt individuals. They get far too much of their own way. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will adhere to the position he has taken up in refusing London Members. As one hon. Member has said, it is not for representative assemblies to say that their lives shall be prolonged, and that no election shall take place. This House has said that several times, and most representative assemblies have passed resolutions to that effect. But it is not for them; it is for the electors to say. They should have the opportunity of electing bodies to represent them. If they chose not to have elections in their localities they could bring that about by having only one nomination for each seat. They would never get the chance, because this institution, time after time, prolongs its own life; so does the county council, and so do the county councils all over the country. It is an unwise policy. I have held all along that this House should not have prolonged its life, but gone to the constituencies in the first instance when its career had been run, and the constituents, themselves taken up with the War in its initial stages, would, in all probability in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, have returned unopposed single members in each constituency. I am glad the right hon. Gentleman has refused this demand by the London Members, and I hope all London Members will take to heart the lesson which has been given that hereafter the Government are going to put them on an equality with other Members of the House.

    Amendment negatived.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

    I beg to move to leave out this Clause. It seems to me that the arguments which the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board has addressed to the Committee in answer to the Amendment which has just been disposed of are conclusive in support of my proposal to leave out this Clause. We know now that it is the intention of the Government to have an election in the month of November. That is advertised in the usual channels. It is blazed abroad in the Press which is in the confidence of the Government. We know also that the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board stated in the course of the Second Reading Debate that he could give the House an assurance that the register would be ready three months before the 31st of January. Consequently the new register—which, by the way, is much easier to make up for Local Government Board purposes—is bound to be ready in full time for the November elections. In these circumstances, as it is obviously not in the public interest that the town councils should continue to exercise their very important functions without any representative authority, I think that the Government are bound by their own arguments to assent to the omission of this Clause. If our town councils were simply restricted to their ordinary former duties in times of peace the situation might not be so serious, but we know that special functions have been delegated to these bodies in the course of the War—very important functions touching closely the everyday life of all our fellow subjects.

    They have functions in relation to pensions and other war materials, and are entitled to elect representatives to deal with these problems. On a number of other things they are closely connected with the War, and I think it is the greatest possible anomaly that men who were elected long before the War, and who have no touch whatever with their constituents, should be able to exercise the autocratic power to which I have referred. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will say now—having stated the arguments which I have just repeated in a much more forcible way than I have been able to state them—that he will assent to the logical conclusion of these arguments. In the Second Reading Debate there was only one argument which he put forward which had any apparent vadidity against this proposal, and that was that while provision was made for soldiers and sailors voting in Parliamentary elections, no such provision was made in the case of local government elections. Are we to understand by the right hon. Gentleman advancing that argument that he does not intend any local elections to take place until all the men embodied in the armed forces of the Crown are demobilised? If that is so, it is an appalling prospect. The War may go on for another two years, and it may be two years more after that before these men are demobilised; so that the conclusion of this argument is that for another four years we are to have no local elections in this country. That is absurd. While it is very important that men serving in the armed forces should be entitled to the franchise in the event of an election taking place in the course of the War, the same arguments do not apply in the case of local elections. The functions of these local bodies are purely functions of local administration. They affect only the people at present residing in the locality. The soldiers and sailors are absent. They are untouched.

    They are untouched by the administration in regard to these war matters of which I am speaking. They are not affected by the rationing locally. So far as their families are concerned they are affected, but their wives have votes. The wives are on the local government register and represent the family for the purpose of local representation, so that the hon. Baronet's argument does not touch the point.

    In so far as they are property owners, I assent to that proposition; but, on the other hand, they are not being affected by the actual administration. They are not the victims of the interference of these local bodies. When the House decided not to put soldiers and sailors on the local government register it did it with its eyes open and with a meaning in view, namely, that it was sailors on the local government register within the area who are affected by the work of the council should be the people to elect. These people are on the spot, and there is no valid argument why they should not be entitled to elect local bodies in whom they have confidence, who will be responsible to them, and whose views they may be able to check and control in the ordinary process of popular election. For these reasons I propose that the Clause be left out.

    I have recently received a resolution of the Trades Council of Edinburgh, which is a very representative body, representing the working classes in Edinburgh, in favour of elections in November. I believe that many other hon. Members have received similar representations in favour of the hon. Member's Amendment, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept it.

    In following the calculation with regard to the period of three months, I may point out that if the register is ready three months before the end of January, that would be the 1st of November. But elections take place in the country on the 1st November—I do not know about Scotland—and if the register were only ready that day it would not give candidates much opportunity for circularising electors. I take it that, when the point was made that the register would be ready three months before January, it would be ready about the middle of October, and if it were in print the week before the 1st of November, that would be all that is required so far with regard to machinery.

    On the general point I think that there is an indisposition in this country to have these local elections largely because the leading men in various parts of the country for the first time in their lives are meeting on local committees without jealousies. In the old days, if you suggested a joint committee, particularly in small towns, it would require to be made up of equal numbers of, say, Conservatives and Liberals, and if either side preponderated the arrangement would not work. Happily, during the last few years, that has been largely forgotten, and if there is a local committee for war charity purposes people are not so careful as to whether there is a majority of one, two, or three on one side or the other. Men have sunk their politics. They do not dispute about politics every morning in railway carriages or tramcars as they had been accustomed to do, and I think that they rather enjoy the rest and are loth to begin to divide themselves into hostile camps for local purposes, as they want to be united for Imperial purposes. That is the result of my investigation.

    No doubt such men as candidates, secretaries, and so forth, feel that if they have to divide on party lines for local elections, as they do in many cases, they would not be quite so united for charitable purposes and Imperial purposes. That is the difficulty which has weighed with me up to the present, but as the years have gone on I think that that tendency has become lessened, and it might have another effect, and a good one, if elections were to take place this November. I do not think that there would be so much party spirit as formerly. I think that that would be a gain, and on balancing those two ideas I rather incline to the conclusion that it might be a healthy thing to allow local authorities to go before the electors. The late Lord Salisbury made a great mistake in suggesting that these local elections should be all fought on party lines. Many elections—such as those for guardians—in England are not generally fought on party lines, but elections in boroughs, and in some urban districts, generally are, and I always thought that that was a mistake. If the local authorities are now compelled to go before their constituents, I think that this would be avoided to a certain extent, and that might be a healthy and desirable change.

    I think that most of the same men would stand again, but would not issue party manifestoes, or show party colours, or employ party canvassers, but would rather make a point of patriotism and their knowledge and efficiency with regard to local conditions. I know that in some cases a party fight is the easiest way out. I remember a local election in which all the different denominations put up candidates—Church of England, Nonconformist, co-operators, temperance people, and so on—and the general population intervened, and said "For goodness sake, we don't know where we are!" In the larger towns I feel sure that party politics would not be the dominating influence as in the past, and that might be a welcome change; but unless we can accomplish that now. I am afraid we may revert to party differences when the War is over. There is trouble, expense and difficulty during the War, and in many cases while the War is going on I know that would be disagreeable. I do not know whether those places which desire an election should have one, but at any rate we can only make such inquiries as are possible. No doubt in many cases in the country they would like to have an election. The right hon. Gentleman's Department has sent out a circular suggesting that where there was a vacancy it should be filled up by the party who supported the deceased member or the retiring member. In some cases that has been done, but not in all. In some cases very great feeling has been aroused. I know some cases where the majority have deliberately chosen the exactly opposite course. In those cases there is no doubt that a feeling of bitterness has been growing up which has led to defiance of the circular of the Local Government Board. There are advantages both ways, but where it is in doubt, I believe the safer plan is to appeal to the people.

    The question before us is whether we are to postpone the elections to be held in March, and we have decided not to postpone them. We have further to decide now whether to postpone the elections in November. My arguments on the Amendment of the Member for South Paddington were, I think, conclusive against it. There is no reason why the House should decide now as to postponing the elections in March, because the House would be far more cognisant later of the circumstances in which those elections would probably be held. We have to consider the elections to be held in the first week of November, and we must remember that we are not likely to reassemble until about the middle of October, and that we could not well put off to that time the question of postponing the November elections until March, because obviously those concerned would meantime be left in a state of uncertainty. Therefore it is necessary to decide this question to-night, and to put into the Bill whether or not these elections shall be postponed, and the Government have come to the conclusion that these elections should be postponed. The hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) says he has some evidence that the Trades Council of Edinburgh desire the elections to be held in November there, but I can assure him that all the evidence which has reached me from those who are best qualified to give a judgment on the question is to the effect that it is far better that the November elections should be postponed. The Municipal Corporations Association is of that opinion, and the great volume of evidence which reaches me is also of that opinion. The argument is used, which carries great weight, that the whole machinery of local government is now being used to the very fullest extent in the very matters which have been mentioned by the Mover of the Amendment—in the matter of tribunals, in the matter of food regulations, and in many other extra duties, such as the pensions committees, which all these local bodies are performing marvellously well, and which are more in the nature of national than local duties. If the elections took place in November, all this machinery, which is of such great use to the country at the present moment, might be dislocated by some great sweep of the electorate, which might turn out of office many of those who have been doing this work and acquiring such valuable experience. The hon. Member says they are not in touch with their constituents, but I would point out to him that, as a rule, the members of the tribunals and of the food committees and the pensions committees are the oldest and most respected members of their various localities. They are men who have sat year after year on these bodies, and, therefore, I do not think the hon. Member can fairly say they are out of touch with their constituents. If the elections were held in November, there might, as I say, be a clean sweep out, and the whole machinery might be dislocated.

    At all events we should have one more year, and a very valuable year, of administration by these gentlemen who are so well acquainted with the work. The hon. Member for Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle) used a most remarkable argument. He said, "It is true that in the elections in November the soldiers could take very little part," and therefore the elections in November would be determined mainly by the ladies whom we have just enfranchised. But he said, "What does that matter to the soldiers? The soldiers have no concern with all these questions which are going to be determined by the local bodies, and what does it matter to the soldiers as to what policy is initiated by local bodies as regards housing or matters of that kind? It is not necessary for them to have a vote or to take part in any of these local elections." I think the House will come to a very different conclusion from that. I think we ought to give an opportunity to the soldiers to take some very considerable part in these elections, and to have a very big voice in the questions that are going to be determined, particularly in the question of housing.

    Will the right hon. Gentleman answer this question—whether he intends to postpone local elections until the soldiers are able to take part?

    What we intend by this Bill is to postpone municipal elections until the following November, and while nobody can prophesy as to when this War will come to an end, at all events we do give ourselves a far better chance of having our soldiers back again with us and of their taking part in these elections. After all, if you hold these elections next November, these men will be shut out from taking any part.

    Is it not the case that only one-third of the members are elected in any one year?

    That is so, of course, in many of our big towns, but in London it is not so. The Metropolitan borough councils are elected for a period of three years, and, therefore, everybody who is serving his country would be excluded from taking part in these elections for three years. For these reasons I believe the Government have come to a right conclusion. They have refused to postpone the elections that will take place in March or April, but they have decided—and I think the Committee will agree with them—to postpone the elections which would otherwise take place in November.

    We have had a very remarkable speech from the President of the Local Government Board stating the reasons why he is opposed to this perfectly innocent and useful Amendment. In the first place, he deprecates the idea that the women voters of this country can express the wishes and desires of their husbands who are at the front. The right hon. Gentleman understands and appreciates the municipal problems in the country, and he knows perfectly well, and would be the first to admit it, that if anybody knows about the local rates and the local arrangements it is the wives of the men who have to pay those rates. Therefore to suggest that, because the soldier and the sailor at the moment are not at home, you must not have the election, in the possible hope that in a year now the War will be over, is a policy of despair. After all, with the exception of London, so far as the rest of the country is concerned, it does not count. With the exception of London, only one-third of the local representatives in any of these councils retire in any one year. In another month we shall be at the beginning of the fourth year of the War, so that men who were members of these councils, particularly in England, in August, 1914, who were in the third year of their term of office are now completing the seventh. Surely it is a reasonable thing to suggest that after at least one-third of every borough council in England has been in office for seven years without any reference at all to the ratepayers, the time has arrived when, unless we are extraordinarily timid, we might address an appeal to the electorate. There are a great many questions which ought to be referred to the electorate at the speediest possible moment. A scandal with regard to housing has been brought before the notice of the House. Reference has been made to the fact that soldiers would not be in the country able to vote. There are, of course, some soldiers and sailors who are here and will be able to vote. They are the discharged men. Attention has been drawn to the fact that in Sheffield, which gets the credit of being a progressive community, at least two discharged soldiers with their wives and families are resident in two disused pigstyes because there is no other accommodation. It is an extraordinarily grave indictment of housing in Sheffield if it is true, and I believe it is a fact which cannot be contradicted. I shall be glad to know if the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fisher) has investigated it.

    After I have given a ruling it is not competent for any hon. Member to ask for reasons for it.

    Is it not competent to put forward as a reason for having local elections the fact that the public has no opportunity to bring its wishes to bear upon the existing council regarding such a situation as my hon. Friend has referred to?

    That is a hypothetical question. I was dealing with the practical position taken up by the hon. Member who is now in possession of the Committee.

    The point I am putting is not a hypothetical case. I am putting a case——

    Mr. PRINGLE rose——

    I have already given my ruling on the matter, and I do not propose to discuss it any further.

    I am sorry you have so ruled, because to me it is a matter of very grave concern. I shall try to avoid incurring your displeasure further with regard to that point. The conditions which I have described, and which you say I cannot go further into, are an indication of the kind of problems that await solution when reference is made to the municipal electors. This Clause deprives them of the opportunity of considering those problems which are closest to their daily life, and it is because of that that I support this Amendment, in order to allow the municipal electors to address themselves—they have every right, and indeed every necessity, to address themselves to them. Since this War began Parliament has thrown upon the local authorities a good many further duties, one of which concerns the administration of pensions in the various localities all over the country. My right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board knows that these pension authorities are elected by the local governing bodies. These are known as local war pensions committees, they are elected by local councils in certain proportions, and to-day, in spite of an Act of Parliament passed by this House, which lays it down that on every local war pensions committee there shall be at least two discharged soldiers and one woman, either the widow or a dependant of a soldier or sailor who has lost his life in this War, it is now proposed that discharged men who are municipal electors shall be deprived of the right of recording their votes at the November election. They will thus be deprived of the opportunity of getting that representation on the local pensions committees which it is the desire of this House they should possess. The Parliament which is prolonging its own life without any mandate, and which has imposed this legislation upon these local bodies, is now proposing to enable these municipal bodies to prolong their own lives. It is the old story of the House of Commons passing legislation and then imposing the duty of administering it upon local authorities, while at the same time denying to the electors any say as to who shall carry out these administrative duties. I can conceive only one reason why the municipal authorities should seek to prolong their existence, and that is that they have not yet got the O.B.E. or some other honour from the Government for the performance of war duties. There are 288 Members of this House who have got the honour, and I do not know how many members of bodies outside Parliament have secured it. There must be some 5,000 or 6,000 in various parts of the country. It seems to me, if you are going to perpetuate the kind of fallacy that because people are already in power, and because, therefore, my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board thinks they know all about the work they should continue to perform it lest certain things happen, you are carrying it to the extreme and even to the verge of the ridiculous. Let me recall the argument of the President of the Local Government Board. He said if there were an election these people might be swept out of office. If that did occur, would it not be proof that the public wanted to get rid of them? We are continually being reminded that in this War we are fighting the cause of democracy. Democracy may sweep these people out of office to-morrow and yet municipal government would still go on. Suppose the same wave that swept these municipal dictators out of office were also to sweep the present Government out of office, would not this country go on just as well even if my hon. and right hon. Friends no longer occupied the Front Bench? The work of government is not carried on by the representatives but by the machine created by those representatives, who are there to criticise and keep the machine up to its best and most effective form. The right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that, if he did not turn up at the Local Government Board to-morrow because of the late sitting of the House, he has perfect confidence in the officials of the Local Government Board that they would carry on the work to his satisfaction when he turned up there on Friday. Therefore the argument, so frequently used by Ministers in distress when they are trying to meet sound arguments, that, if these things happened, the world would come to an end, is so much moonshine. It does not mean anything at all. It may be true, as the right hon. Gentleman says, that all these bodies are working at high pressure, but the revelations of the one little Committee of this House which is looking into the question of expenditure and into the staffing of the Departments have proved over and over again that all our Government Departments are over-staffed.

    This is the second time I have directed the hon. Member's attention to the irrelevance of his remarks.

    I know that you have twice said that my remarks are irrelevant, but I have been trying my level best—and I am not without experience—to keep my remarks to the point. I do not often transgress. I was showing that the argument of the right hon. Gentleman, that the Amendment would dislocate the business of the municipalities of this country through the holding of the elections, was not sound, because of the fact that the municipal departments and the local War departments were, like the national departments, over-staffed. The last point, the powerful argument which the right hon. Gentleman has kept in the background, is that the register will not be ready. That argument means that the register, which it will be impossible to use for a municipal election in November, is to be used for a national election in the same month.

    I do not know why my hon. Friend is saying that I said the register would not be ready for an election in November. I made no such statement, nor any other statement which could possibly be interpreted as meaning that.

    The statement of the hon. Member that I said the register would not be ready for an election in November. I made no such statement or any other statement which could possibly be twisted or contorted into meaning that.

    I am sorry if, after all his efforts, my right hon. Friend will not have the register ready for an election in November. In any case, whatever the right hon. Gentleman means, the argument he has used with regard to the dislocation of the municipalities would apply equally to a national election in November. For all these reasons I beg to support the deletion of this Clause.

    12.0 M.

    Every member of the Committee will be agreed on one thing at least—that is, that where any interference with the limited life of any popularly elected body is necessary, the area of that disturbance should be limited as far as possible. I confess that personally, in view of a good deal of public discussion in recent months, I was surprised to find that municipal elections were covered by the provisions of this Bill. The general trend of expectation in the country had been that we have reached the limits of desirable interference with the municipal elections, and I am quite ignorant what set of new considerations have influenced the Goverment in departing from what I still believe has been the unmistakable trend of public opinion for some time past. One of the main grounds upon which the extension of the life of this Parliament has been advanced is that it is exceedingly undesirable that we should have any disturbance of public thought and energy in view of an impending offensive at this particular moment. Obviously, that consideration cannot apply to prospective municipal elections in November next. But far the most conclusive argument that has been used by the Government has been that if a General Election were to take place you would have to use a register which everybody knows and acknowledges is entirely unreliable as affording an index of national thought and opinions. It is clear from the admissions of the President of the Local Government Board that that most important consideration could not possibly apply to the municipal elections in November next. The President of the Local Government Board argued that many men who might otherwise be candidates are now, under the scope of the enlarged Man-Power Bill, engaged upon military service. He will acknowledge—certainly the experience of the last four years has abundantly shown it—that there can be no stronger claim to electoral support on the part of any candidate, Parliamentary or municipal, than that he should be engaged on actual military service. I cannot conceive a stronger recommendation for a municipal candidate than that he should be debarred from personally conducting his own campaign by the fact that he was serving in arms in France or elsewhere.

    There is this further consideration. We are all aware that under the so-called party truce any vacancies in the municipal councils that have taken place in recent months or years have been filled by co-option. This system of co-option does not pay attention to the wishes or opinions of electors in any constituency. It is a pure arrangement between the political caucuses of both sides or of the three sides. It does not follow, and, as a matter of fact, it is within the experience of all the Members of the House that in many cases vacancies have not been filled by those best qualified to fill the responsible position of municipal councillor, and I do think that it is exceedingly undesirable, in the interests of the municipal life of the country, and especially in view of the most important municipal questions that are looming up in the immediate future, that you should have persons elected who have not unmistakably the mandate of the municipal electors behind them. I do not think that the Government have made out a clear case for the inclusion of municipal elections within the scope of this Bill. I still hope that the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider the matter, and that on reconsideration he will exclude the municipal elections. I am quite confident that the evidence which he has quoted on the authority of the Council of the Municipal Corporations is not the sort of evidence that can be conclusive in an assembly of this kind. Obviously, the further removed any elected representative, whether Parliamentary or other, is from the constituency which originally elected him the greater becomes his indisposition again to face the electorate, and it is quite natural that the Council of the Municipal Corporations, representing the elected bodies, should desire to prolong their existence and to postpone the evil day when they will again have to seek a fresh mandate from the electors. It is not a consideration that weighs with me in the slightest degree. It is a consideration based upon natural motives, quite human in their character and in their inspiration. In the interests of the municipal life of the country it is desirable that the municipal electors shall have the chance of saying

    Division No. 61.]

    AYES.

    [12.6 a.m.

    Agg-Gardner, Sir James TynteGibbs, Col. George AbrahamParker, James (Halifax)
    Baird, John LawrenceGilbert, James DanielPease, Rt. Hon. H. P. (Darlington)
    Baldwin, StanleyGilmour, Lt.-Col, JohnPennefather, De Fonblanque
    Barlow, Sir Montague (Salford, S.)Gretton, JohnPollock, Sir Ernest Murray
    Barnett, Capt. Richard W.Hambro, Angus ValdemarPratt, John W.
    Barnston, Major HarryHarmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds.)Pryce-Jones, Col. Sir E.
    Barton, Sir WilliamHarris, Sir Henry P. (Paddington, S.)Pulley, C. T.
    Bathurst, Col. Hon. A. B. (Glouc., E.)Havelock-Allan, Sir HenryRea, Walter Russell
    Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)Rees, Sir J. D.
    Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith-Jones, Wm. S. Glyn- (Stepney)Robinson, Sidney
    Bridgeman, William CliveLane-Fox, Major G. R.Samuels, Arthur W. (Dub. U.)
    Bryce, John AnnanLarmor, Sir J.Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur
    Butcher, Sir J. G.Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)Smith, Harold (Warrington)
    Carew, Charles R. S. (Tiverton)Layland-Barratt, Sir F.Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, W.)
    Cator, JohnLevy, Sir MauriceWard, W. Dudley (Southampeon)
    Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)Lewis, Rt. Hon. John HerbertWeston, John W.
    Coats, Sir Stuart (Wimbledon)Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)Whiteley, Sir H. J. (Droitwich)
    Colvin, Col.M'Curdy, Charles AlbertWilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
    Craig, Ernest (Crewe)Marshall, Arthur HaroldWilson-Fox, Henry (Tamworth)
    Davies, David (Montgomery Co.)Mason, James F. (Windsor)Winfrey, Sir R.
    Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)Mason, RobertYounger, Sir George
    Dawes, James ArthurMond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Moritz
    Fisher, Rt. Hon. William HayesMorison, Thomas B. (Inverness)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord

    France, Gerald AshburnerNewman, Sir Robert (Exeter)E. Talbot and Colonel Gibbs.

    NOES

    Booth, Frederick HandelMartin, JosephWatt, Henry A.
    Hogge, J. M.Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.

    Jowett, Frederick WilliamRaffan, Peter WilsonMr. Pringle and Mr. Sherwell

    Clause 3 (Short Title) Ordered To Stand Part Of The Bill

    Bill reported, without Amendment.

    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

    We are being asked at this hour—on Thursday morning—to take the Third Reading of so important a measure, which we have been trying to Amend in Committee. I do appeal to the President of the Local Government Board to carry out the promise made by the Patronage Secretary that if we did not get the Bill yesterday it should be taken on Friday. We began the discussion of the Committee stage on Wednesday; it is now Thursday, and as the Bill was not concluded last night I think he ought to carry out his intention that it should be taken on Friday.

    I have no recollection of having said that, but if he says I said it, of course I will keep my word.

    who shall constitute their governors in municipal matters in the immediate future.

    Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

    The Committee divided: Ayes, 69; Noes, 7.

    It may have been a misunderstanding, but I was informed by my Friends in the Lobby that it was so. As the Patronage Secretary knows, nobody more than myself appreciates the way in which he keeps any bargain he makes with any Member of this House. I have made as many arrangements with him as most people, and I willingly pay this tribute to him, that I do not know any member of the Government or of any Government who so implicitly keeps every promise that he makes to Members. Therefore, I was not seeking to imply to him a promise which he did not make. I was distinctly given to understand from the conversation I had with my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Watt) in the Lobby that such a promise had been given. The hon. and learned Member is in constant attendance, and he was under the impression that the promise was made. He said that if we got through the Committee stage we should not have to wait very long, as the Bill was to stand over until Friday. Even if there was a misunderstanding, why not take the Bill on Friday? There are only several small measures for Friday, and there is no reason why we should proceed with it tonight. If we do, seeing that we have all lost our trains now, there is more time to discuss it than we would have in an ordinary sitting.

    I am afraid I was unwittingly to blame for this misunderstanding. Certainly the Patronage Secretary did not say he did not want the Third Reading to-night. I happened to ask him—and he is always very courteous with any Member who goes to him—what was the business on Friday, and he mentioned one or two Bills. He also said that if this Bill was not finished to-night it would have to be taken on Friday. So far as I am concerned, I do not think we ought to take advantage of the position, and I suggest that we give way and allow the Bill to pass.

    May I explain my position? I was under the impression that the Patronage Secretary had said that if the Bill was not passed last night (Wednesday) it would have to be dealt with on Friday. It was a misunderstanding. I do not insist upon the Patronage Secretary keeping a promise he never made, and I suggest that we should allow the Bill to go through.

    Question put, and agreed to.

    Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed.

    The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

    It being after Half-past Eleven of the clock on Wednesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

    Adjourned at Twenty minutes after Twelve o'clock.