House of Commons
Tuesday, November 19, 1918
Address to His Majesty
and the House went to attend His Majesty, and, having returned,
I have to report that the House has this day attended His Majesty in the Royal Gallery with their Address, in reply to which His Majesty was pleased to make a Most Gracious Speech.
His Majesty's Reply
His Majesty's Reply, delivered to the Members of both Houses of Parliament [ here inserted for convenience of reference ] was as follows:
"I thank you for your loyal Addresses of congratulations on the signature of an Armistice and on the prospect of a victorious peace.
"At this moment, without parallel in our history and in the history of the world, I am glad to meet you and the representatives of India and the Dominions beyond the seas, that we may render thanks to Almighty God for the promise of a peace now near at hand, and that I may express to you, and through you to the peoples whom you represent, the thoughts that rise in my mind at a time so solemn.
"I do this with a heart full of grateful recognition of the spontaneous and enthusiastic expressions of loyalty and affection which I have been privileged to receive both personally here and in the metropolis, and, by messages from all parts of these islands, as well as from every quarter of the Empire. During the past four years of national stress and anxiety, my support has been faith in God and confidence in my people. In the days to come, days of uncertainly and of trial, strengthened by the same help, I shall strive to the utmost of my power to discharge the responsibilities laid upon rue, to uphold, the honour of the Umpire, and to promote the well-being of the peoples over whom I am called to reign.
"After a struggle longer and far more terrible than any one could, have foretold, the soil of Britain remains inviolate. Our Navy has everywhere held the seas, and wherever the enemy could be brought to battle it has renewed the glories of Brake and Nelson. The incessant work it has accomplished in overcoming the hidden menace of the enemy submarines and guarding the ships that have brought food and munitions to our shores, has been less conspicuous but equally essential to success. Without that work, Britain might have starved and those valiant soldiers of America who have so much contributed to our victory could not have found their way hither across the foam of perilous seas.
"The Fleet has enabled us to win the war. In fact, without the Fleet, the struggle could not have been maintained, for upon the command of the sea the very existence and maintenance of our Land Forces have from the first depended.
"That we should have to wage this War on land had scarcely entered our thoughts until the storm actually broke upon us. But Belgium and France were suddenly invaded and the nation rose to the emergency. Within a year an Army more than ten times the strength of that which was ready for action in August, 1914, was raised by voluntary enlistment, largely owing to the organising genius and personal influence of Lord Kitchener, and the number of that Army was afterwards far more than doubled.
"These new soldiers, drawn from the civil population, have displayed a valour equal to that of their ancestors, who have carried the flag of Britain to victory in so many lands in bygone times Short as was their training, they have imitated and rivalled the prowess of the small but ever famous force which, in the early weeks of the War, from Mons to the Marne, fought its magnificent retreat against vastly superior numbers. Not less prompt was the response, not less admirable the devotion to the common cause, of those splendid troops which eagerly hastened to us from the Dominions overseas, men who showed themselves more than ever to be bone of our bone, inheriting all the courage and tenacity that have made Britain great. A hundred battlefields in all parts of the world have witnessed their heroism, have been soaked with their blood, and are for ever hallowed by their graves.
"I shall ever remember how the Princes of India rallied to the cause, and with what ardour her soldiers sustained in many theatres of War and tinder conditions the most diverse and exacting, the martial traditions of their race. Neither can I forget how the men from the Crown Colonies and Protectorates of Great Britain, also fighting amid novel and perilous scenes, exhibited a constancy and devotion second to none.
"To all these and to their Commanders who, in fields so scattered and against enemies so different in Europe, Asia, and Africa have for four years confronted the hazards, overcome the perils, and finally decided the issues of War, our gratitude is most justly due. They have combined the highest military skill with unsurpassed resolution; and amid the heat of the battlefield have never been deaf to the calls of chivalry and humanity.
"Particularly would I mention the names of Field-Marshal Sir Douglas Haig, whose patient and indomitable leadership, ably seconded by his fellow Commanders, has been rewarded by the final rout of the enemy on the field of so much sacrifice and glory; of General Sir Edmund Allenby who, in a campaign unique in military history, has won back for Christendom the spoil for which centuries had fought and bled in vain; and of General Sir Stanley Maude and his successor who gained, in a scene of no less romance, the first resounding victory of the War for the Allied cause.
"While I mention those who have served their country till the end of the struggle, let us not for yet the incomparable services of the leaders who, in the early days of the War, before Fortune had begun to smile, upheld the best traditions of British Arms by land and sea; of Field-Marshal Lord French of Ypres, whose title recalls the scene of his undying renown, and of Admirals Lord Jellicoe and Sir David Beatty, who have for four years been the spirit and soul, as they were the successive Commanders, of the fighting Fleet of the Empire.
"Let us remember also those who belong to the most recent military arm, the keen-eyed and swift-winged knights of the air, who have given to the world a new type of daring and, resourceful heroism.
"So must we further acknowledge the dauntless spirit of the men of the Mercantile Marine and the fishermen who patrolled our coasts, braving all the dangers of mine and torpedo in the discharge of duty.
"Let our thanks also be given to those who have toiled incessantly at home, women no less than men, in producing munitions of war, and to those who have rendered essential war service in many other ways. There are whole fields of service wherein workers, old and young, have toiled unknown and unrequited, save by the consciousness that they were answering to the call of duty. Notable, too, has been the contribution made to the common welfare by those who volunteered as surgeons, physicians, chaplains, and nurses, fearlessly exposing themselves to danger in their tasks of mercy. While all these have laboured with the same glowing spirit of unselfish service, may we not be proud also of the attitude maintained by the whole people at home? Unwonted privations have been cheerfully borne, and the hearts of those who were facing the stress of battle have been cheered by the stedfast confidence with which those whom they had left at home awaited the issue, and assured them of their unfaltering devotion to the prosecution of the War.
"While we find in these things cause for joy and pride, our hearts go out in sorrowful sympathy to the parents, the wives, and the children who have lost those who were the light and stay of their lives. They gave freely of what was most precious to them. They have borne their griefs with unrepining fortitude, knowing that the sacrifice was made for our dear country and for a righteous cause. May they find consolation in the thought that the sacrifice has not been made in vain. These brave men died for Right and for Humanity. Both have been vindicated.
"In all these ways, and through all these years, there has been made manifest the unconquered and unconquerable spirit of our race, nourished on the glorious traditions of many centuries of freedom. This spirit, conscious of its strength, bore the trials and disappointments of these years with a fortitude that was never shaken and a confidence that never failed, It knew its motives to be pure, and it held fast to its faith that Divine Providence would not suffer injustice and oppression to prevail.
"In this great struggle, which we hope will determine for good the future of the world, it, is a matter of ceaseless pride to us that we hare been associated with Allies, whose spirit has been identical with our own, and who amid sufferings that have in so many cases greatly exceeded ours, have devoted their united strength to the vindication of righteousness and freedom; France, whose final deliverance, achieved by one of the greatest Commanders, Marshal Foch, has been the reward of a sacrifice and endurance almost beyond compare; Belgium, devastated and held in bondage for nigh on five years, but now restored to her liberty and her King; Italy, whose lofty spirit has at length found its national fulfilment; and our remaining Allies, upon whose horizon, till lately so dark, the light of emancipation already dawns.
"During the last one and a half years we are also proud to have been directly associated with the great sister-Commonwealth across the ocean, the United States of America, whose resources and valour have exercised so powerful an influence in the attainment of those high ideals which were her single aim.
"Now that the clouds of war are being swept from the sky, new tasks arise before us. We see more clearly some duties that have been neglected, some weaknesses that may retard our onward march. Liberal provision must be made for those whose exertions by land and see have saved us. We have to create a better Britain, to bestow more care on the health and well-being of the people, and to ameliorate further the conditions of labour.
"May not the losses of war be repaired by a better organisation of industry and by avoiding the waste which industrial disputes involve? Cannot a spirit of reciprocal trust and co-ordination of effort be diffused among all classes? May we not, by raising the standard of education, turn to fuller account the natural aptitudes of our people and open wider the sources of intellectual enjoyment?
"We have, also, in conjunction with our Allies and other peace-loving States, to devise the machinery by which the risk of International strife shall be averted and the crushing burdens of naval and military armaments be reduced. The doctrine that Force shall rule the world has been disproved and destroyed. Let us enthrone the rule of Justice and International Right.
"In what spirit shall we approach these great problems? How shall we seek to achieve the victories of Peace? Can we do better than remember the lessons which the years of war have taught, and retain the spirit which they instilled? In these years Britain, and her traditions have come to mean more to us than they had ever meant before. It became a privilege to serve her in whatever way we could; and we were all drawn by the sacredness of the cause into a comradeship which fired our zeal and nerved our efforts. This is the spirit we must try to preserve. It is on a sense of brotherhood and mutual good will, on a common devotion to the common interests of the nation as a whole, that its future properity and strength must be built up. The sacrifices made, the sufferings endured, the memory of the heroes who have died that Britain may live, ought surely to ennoble our thoughts and attune our hearts to a higher sense of individual and national duty, and to a fuller realisation of what the English-speaking race, dwelling upon the shores of all the oceans, may yet accomplish for mankind.
"For centuries past, Britain has led the world along the path of ordered freedom. Leadership may still be hers among the peoples who are seeking to follow that path. God grant to their efforts such wisdom and perseverance as shall ensure stability for the days to come.
"May good will and concord at home strengthen our influence for concord abroad. May the morning star of peace which is now rising over a war-worn world be here and everywhere the herald of a better day, in which the storms of strife shall have died down and the rays of an enduring peace be shed upon all the nations."
Private Business
Brentford Gas Bill and South Shields Gas Bill,
Ordered, That so much of the Lords Message [ 18th November ] as relates to the Brentford Gas Bill and the South Shields Gas Bill be now considered.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
So much of the Lords Message considered.
Ordered, That the Promoters of the Bills which have been introduced into this House in the present Session of Parliament, and which have passed this House and been sent to the House of Lords, shall have leave to introduce the same in the next Session of Parliament, provided that notice of their intention to do so be lodged in the Private Bill Office not later than Five o'clock on the day prior to the close of the present Session.
Ordered, That such Bills shall be deposited in the Private Bill Office not later than Five o'clock on or before the third day on which the House shall sit after the next meeting of Parliament, with a declaration annexed thereto, signed by the Agent, stating that the Bill is the same in every respect as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the present Session.
Ordered, That the proceedings on such Bills shall be pro formâ only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have passed in the present Session, and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages.
Ordered, That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated shall not apply to such Bills in regard to any of the stages through which the same shall have passed during the present Session.
Ordered, That this Order be a Standing Order of the House.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Lords to acquaint them therewith.
Gas Provisional Orders Bill,
Gas and Water Provisional Orders Bill,
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Civil Contingencies Fund, 1917–18
Copy ordered, "of Accounts of the Civil Contingencies Funds, 1917–18, showing (1) the receipts and payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March, 1918; (2) the distribution of the capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; together with copy of the correspondence with the Comptroller and Auditor-General thereon."—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]
Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899
Return ordered, "of all the Draft Provisional Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, which in the Sessions of 1917 and 1918 have been reported on by the Commissioners; together with the names of the Commissioners; the first and also the last day of the sittings in each group; the number of days on which each body of Commissioners sat; the number of days on which each Commissioner has served; the number of days occupied by each Draft Provisional Order before the Commissioners; the Draft Provisional Orders, the Preambles of which were reported to have been proved; and the Draft Provisional Orders, the Preambles of which were reported to have been not proved:
And also a statement showing how all Draft Provisional Orders of the Sessions have been dealt with."—[ Mr. Munro. ]
Natives of the German Colonies
Copy presented of Correspondence relating to the wishes of the Natives of the German Colonies as to their future government [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
PRISONERS OF WAR (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 24, 1918)
Copy presented of Report on the Treatment of British Prisoners of War in Turkey [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
ARMISTICE WITH GERMANY (MISCELLANEOUS, No. 25, 1918)
Copy presented of Conditions of Armistice with Germany. Signed 11th November, 1918 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Customs and Excise
Copy presented of Ninth Report of the Commissioners of His Majesty's Custom and Excise for the year ending 31st March, 1918, being the Sixty-second Report relating to the Customs and the Sixty-first Report relating to the Excise [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Oral Answers to Questions
Eastern Campaign
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is in a position to make a statement on the results, political, naval, and military, following on the success of our campaigns in Palestine, Syria, Arabia, Mesopotamia, and Persia?
The hon. Gentleman will, I think, agree on reflection that only an historian of the future could give a satisfactory answer to his question.
Demobilisation
Apprentices
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can say what arrangements have been made as to the discharge of apprentices from the Army; will the time spent in the Army count as part of the term of apprenticeship or not; are the apprentices bound to return to their masters, and are the masters bound to receive them; and, if there are no regulations affecting this matter, will he consider the question of promulgating some?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave to the hon. Member for West Down on the 4th instant, in which I stated that a Bill to deal with the matter was in course of preparation. As regards the legal position of apprentices who were under formal indentures, which have been interrupted by war service, I am advised that, generally speaking, the legal impossibility of performance during the period of military service has put an end to the contract.
May I ask if you are making any effort to secure for those apprentices the full training which they must have to enable them to work?
We shall do what we can to secure training.
Memento of Service
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether on demobilisation it is intended to allow the soldier to keep as a memento of his service his helmet or cap with badge?
It is intended that on demobilisation a soldier will retain his uniform (except greatcoat) and kit, and he will therefore keep his cap and badge.
Does uniform include the helmet?
It includes the cap and badge.
And the helmet?
Do you mean the steel helmet?
Yes.
No; it does not.
Conscientious Objectors
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether in the schemes for demobilisation any arrangements have yet been made with reference to conscientious objectors; whether steps will be taken to ensure that all conscientious objectors at present serving are held to serve until every soldier other than soldiers of the future Regular Army are repatriated; and whether these conscientious objectors will now be sent to France to assist in the reconstruction work on the ruined battlefields?
No special arrangements are contemplated, and their demobilisation will take place under the general scheme.
Does the right hon. Gentleman mean that those men will have the preference in demobilisation over those who have served?
No, I do not mean that.
Agricultural Labour
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state what definite arrangements have been made for releasing agricultural labour from the Army that is urgently needed for the production of next year's crops?
There are at present over 79,000 men in agricultural companies, and 5,000 ploughmen who are in medical category "A" have just been sent out on two months' furlough. All men at home of any medical category, who are threshers are now being obtained from the Army. During the harvest 20,000 soldiers were supplied, of whom about 3,000 are still engaged on potato lifting. Any men of low medical category who are experienced farm workers, and are serving at home, are being attached to agricultural companies, and made available for agricultural work.
Assuming there are men of Grade "A" who are really essential for the cultivation of farms, what is the most expeditious method of getting them out of the Army?
I am afraid they must come under the demobilisation scheme.
Forces in Distant Theatres
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether, in bringing troops home from the various fronts, special consideration will be given to those units which have been engaged in distant theatres of war from which leave has, owing to exigencies of transport, been less frequently given than in the case of troops serving in France?
I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer which I gave yesterday to a similar question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Deptford.
Armistice With Germany
Celebration in London (British Troops)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can give the House any information as to the conduct and behaviour of the soldiers of all ranks who were present in very large numbers in London on the night of 11th November?
Yes, Sir. The conduct of the British troops in London during the day and the night of the 11th November was in all respects admirable. It is a pleasant contemplation that, on the greatest day in the history of the British Army, when much irregularity might be expected, if not pardoned, our gallant troops should have shown the steady discipline and good conduct of old and tried troops.
May I ask if it is not possible to have an Order issued, either through the Commander-in-Chief of the Homo Forces or through the Army Council, to show the appreciation by the authorities of this excellent and admirable conduct of this very large number of soldiers?
I will see what can be done.
Soldier's Sentence (Rouen)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he will state why Gunner T. Edwards, No. 29329, 4th Section, No. 1 Military Police, Rouen, France, has been sentenced to five years' imprisonment; whether this soldier was sentenced in this manner for refusing to do sanitary work when he came out of hospital; and if he will consider this soldier's past record?
I am having inquiry made, and will acquaint my hon. Friend of the result as soon as possible.
Soldiers' Graves
Identification Photographs
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if the director of the graves department will be instructed to supply to the relatives of fallen soldiers a map or plan showing the grave marked and a photograph of the same at as early a date as possible; and if such work will be commenced at once?
Relatives have since June, 1915, been supplied on request with photographs of registered identified graves by the Director-General of Graves Registration and Inquiries out of funds provided mainly by the Joint War Committee of the British Red Cross Society and the Order of Saint John.
Over 91,000 such requests have been complied with, and these photographs have been dispatched to all parts of the Empire.
The outstanding work throughout the area occupied by the British Armies in France and Belgium and the Eastern theatres of war, including those areas which have recently become accessible, is proceeding as rapidly as possible.
The issue to relatives of maps or plans indicating the exact position of cemeteries or isolated graves is already under consideration. It has been impossible hitherto to provide the draughtsmen required for the purpose, but full descriptions of the location of the graves have in all cases, been furnished.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say to whom reports for photographs of graves my be addressed?
To Brigadier-General Fabian Ware, Director of Graves Registration and Inquiries, Winchester House, St. James' Square.
Army
Leave (⅙Th Devons)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether the men of the ⅙th Devons, now in India, who went to the relief of General Townshend at Kut, and who have been on foreign service since 1914, can be relieved and sent home?
This question is under consideration, and I can assure my hon. Friend that these men will be brought home as soon as the situation will permit. I may add that there are men in other units and arms who are similarly situated, and they must receive equal treatment when the time comes.
Rations
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether steps can be taken by which rations could be drawn from a civilian source on the same scale as Army rations, issued in kind, by officers and men of His Majesty's Forces who are not drawing rations in kind by virtue of their being so stationed as to-be unable to draw rations in kind on account of distance from places of issue, etc., or placed on family allowance in the case of warrant officers, non-commissioned officers, and men, or who are unable to consume rations in kind for dietary reasons supported by a medical certificate?
I have consulted my right hon. Friend the Food Controller, and he agrees with me that my hon. Friend's suggestion is impracticable.
Territorial Force (Devon Royal Engineers)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is in a position to state that, pending a decision as to the future of the Territorials, no steps will be taken towards abolishing the Devon Royal Engineers as a county unit?
I am glad to be able to reassure my hon. Friend on this point. It has been decided that, though it has been necessary in certain cases to utilise the personnel of certain pre-war Territorial units for drafting purposes, and the units have therefore been temporarily broken up, no Territorial unit formed prior to the War shall be abolished or disbanded until Parliament has decided the lines upon which the post-bellum Army shall be maintained. Steps will be taken to modify any instructions which have been issued on this subject calculated to convey the contrary impression.
Does that mean that Territorial units that have been disbanded will be reconstituted at once?
They will be temporarily reconstituted before demobilisation. That will apply only to first-line units.
Bandmasters (Commissions)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that, while the number of commissions granted to every branch of the Service has increased many hundred per cent. during the War, the number granted to bandmasters is unchanged; whether he is aware that it is now more difficult for a bandmaster in the British Regular Army to attain commissioned rank than in any of the forces of our Overseas Dominions or our Allies; and whether this question will receive immediate and favourable consideration?
Bandmasters who are granted commissions as Directors of Music are not engaged in active operations in the field, and it has not, therefore, been necessary to increase their numbers owing to the War. I am not aware of the conditions under which bandmasters are promoted to commissioned rank in the forces of the Overseas Dominions or of our Allies. As the whole question is bound up with the organisation of the post-bellum Army, I regret that it is not possible to make any statement at the present time.
2nd King Edward's Horse
The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. HOUSTON:
17. To ask the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the 2nd King Edward's Horse was a regiment raised by private subscription and effort at the beginning of the War and subsequently adopted by the War Office as a British Regular Cavalry unit; whether he is aware that the men who originally enlisted in this regiment were Britons from overseas who in many instances abandoned their positions at the call of duty; whether the men of this regiment have experienced hard fighting and distinguished themselves and are now entitled to prompt discharge and conveyance back to the foreign lands from which they came in the same manner and on the same terms as Colonial troops; and whether, notwithstanding several squadrons of this gallant regiment have been distributed amongst other British units, the men who at one time formed the regiment, whether in it now or not, will individually receive the same benefit and treatment as Colonial troops so far as discharge and transportation to their foreign homes in concerned?
I have asked my hon. Friend to postpone this question until to-morrow.
Is my right hon. Friend not aware that I have already postponed this question at his request? I have received no further request. It is a serious matter, and I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reply to-morrow.
I am sorry my hon. Friend has not received my request. I assure him it is a difficult question to answer, but I hope I may answer it to-morrow.
Carpenters and Joiners (Weymouth)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he is aware that the carpenters and joiners employed by the Southern Command of the Royal Engineers at Weymouth are only being paid at the rate of 10d. per hour, the rate of the district being 1s. 1d. per hour, and that the Chief Engineer, Southern Command, refuses to pay the rate current in the district; and whether he will give instructions to the Southern Command to pay the men concerned the rate current in the district, with the arrears of pay due to them?
I understand that there is a local difference as to the district rate, which is under investigation. As soon as the position is clear, any necessary authority will be issued.
Will the right hon. Gentleman issue instructions that where it is quite clear that the wages are a certain amount the Engineers will be paid at that rate? Is he aware that this point is arising all over the country?
As soon as it is established what the district rate is arrangements will be made that it shall be paid.
And arrears will be paid?
I do not know.
Equipment Allowance (Officers)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether it is intended to continue, after the conclusion of peace, allowances to officers of His Majesty's Army to cover the cost of providing uniform and other necessary equipment; and whether provision will also be made to cover the expenditure necessarily incurred by officers on the renewal of various items of uniform annually?
The existing arrangements will continue until a date to be announced. Renewals of uniform were expressly taken into account in settling the rates of officers' pay. I am not yet in a position to make any statement as regards subsequent arrangements.
Will the right hon. Gentleman realise that this matter is urgent, because as soon as the Army gets back—if it does—to the scarlet tunics, young officers with £150 to £200 pay will have to pay £250 to £300 for the new outfit, and at least £50 a year for renewal?
The matter will be carefully considered. I think the hon. Gentle man realises that up to now it has been considered from time to time.
Foot Guards (Accommodation)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether it has been decided to proceed with any scheme for the provision of adequate barrack accommodation in London for officers of His Majesty's Foot Guards?
I am not in a position to make any announcement at present.
Was the matter not under consideration before the War?
I have told my hon. Friend frankly that we have not considered it during the course of the War; but consideration will be given to it before long.
Officers' Expenses
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, having regard to the number of men who have received permanent commissions since the outbreak of War in regiments in which the standard of pre-war expenditure was exceptionally high, and in order to ensure that in the future opportunities of service in His Majesty's Army shall not be limited by pecuniary considerations, any steps are being taken to reduce the pre-war scale of officers' expenses?
I can at present add nothing to my reply of 6th August on this subject.
Injured Workmen (Woolwich)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been drawn to the case of W. C. Field, who sustained injuries on the 19th October, 1917, through being crushed between the main gate, Royal Dockyard, Woolwich, and an Army Service Corps motor lorry, No. L.R. 8078; whether he is aware that this man has been incapacitated for a considerable period and is still under medical treatment, it being doubtful if he will ever recover complete use of his left arm; that, although Field has been in receipt of compensation in accordance with the Government scheme under the Workmen's Compensation Act, he has been put to considerable expense as a result of the accident; and whether, in these circumstances, he will recommend the payment of a further sum to compensate Field for the expense to which he has been put, and for the personal injuries he has received?
I am making inquiries, and will let my right hon. Friend know the result as soon as possible.
Warm Underwear, Scotland
asked the Financial Secretary, to the War Office whether his attention has been called to the shortage of warm underwear in Scotland on account of all wool having been commandeered by his Department; and, if so, can he see his way to release a larger quantity for civilian use?
The reduced production for civil purposes of woollen underwear in all parts of the country has been unavoidable in consequence of military demands, which have necessarily received priority over civil requirements. In view of the change of the military position, it is hoped that it will be possible shortly to release a large quantity of wool for civil use.
General Election
Conscientious Objectors (Candidates)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will release from imprisonment as a conscientious objector Mr. J. H. Hudson, prospective Labour candidate for the Borough of Eccles, so as to give him the opportunity of conducting his election campaign?
No exceptional treatment can be given to individual prisoners for the purpose stated.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Mr. Hudson is contesting an election against the hon. Member for Hexham (Mr. Holt)?
No; I am not aware of that. The answer is as stated.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Pensions Inspectors (Wales)
asked the Pensions Minister if he will see that in all appointments of pensions inspectors in Wales such inspectors shall be able to speak in Welsh and English, and shall have lived in Wales and understand the Welsh habits and customs of family life, in view of the fact that discontent and misunderstanding would thus be avoided?
Both the present superintending inspectors for Wales are Welsh-speaking Welshmen, well known in their respective areas, and their subordinate inspectors are also Welshmen. In making applications to the outdoor staff in Wales special regard is always paid to the conditions specified in the hon. Member's question.
Release of Ploughmen (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware of the scarcity of ploughmen in Scotland, and that for every pair of horses kept idle in consequence 60 or 70 acres will be thrown out of its proper course of cultivation; and whether he can now take steps to secure the release of a sufficient number of ploughmen to enable the land to be cultivated?
I am aware that there is a scarcity of skilled ploughmen in Scotland. I am informed that the number of men in the agricultural companies of the labour battalions, for employment on farms in Scotland, is at present 7,700. Of 2,500 soldier ploughmen in Category "A" who by arrangement with the War Office were to be released for two months for autumn ploughing, 1,400 had been made available up to the 9th instant. In conjunction with the Ministry of Labour the Board of Agriculture for Scotland is obtaining the names of a number of skilled men for whom vacancies exist and the Board will make every effort to secure their release in advance of general demobilisation.
Reconstruction
Housing Schemes (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether it is the intention of his Department to bring in legislation for Scotland making it compulsory for landowners there to feu land for housing purposes at practically agricultural rates to be fixed by the Land Court, in view of the great number who are desirous of building houses of their own?
I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to my observations on the subject of the acquisition of land for housing purposes in the discussion in the House on Thursday last.
asked the Secretary for Scotland what progress has been made with regard to the provision of houses in the rural areas of Scotland and particularly how many new houses have been arranged for?
In supplement to what I said in the discussion on Thursday last, I am informed that a considerable number of local authorities in rural areas have signified their intention to proceed with the preparation of schemes. These include:—Leaside district of Aberdeenshire, 42 houses; Garioch district of Aberdeenshire, 36 houses; Laurencekirk district of Kincardineshire, 18 houses; St. Cyrus district of Kincardineshire, 50 houses; upper district of Renfrewshire, 300 houses; lower ward district of Lanarkshire, 250 houses; Kinross county, 20 houses; eastern district of Dumbartonshire, 300; western district of Dumbartonshire, 200 houses per annum, and central district of Stirlingshire, 50 houses. Total 1,266 houses.
The special problems presented by housing in rural areas is having the most careful consideration of the Scottish Local Government Board in consultation with the Board of Agriculture for Scotland.
When may we expect to have the result of these deliberations of his office with regard to the principles upon which these purely rural areas are to be provided for?
I am not quite sure I appreciate what my hon. Friend refers to when he says the principles on which these matters are to be arranged. My impression is that these things are already settled.
Building Trade (Release of Men)
asked the Minister of Reconstruction what special efforts he is making to enable master-builders to be discharged for whom work and labour is waiting and whose discharge will assist the existing shortage of houses, which will increase with the return of the troops?
I have been asked by my right hon. Friend to answer this question. The Minister of Labour is consulting the representatives both of masters and men in the building trade in order to ascertain, the names of pivotal men in the building trade whose early release will contribute most quickly to the re-establishment of this vital industry.
Socialist Labour Press. Glasgow
asked the Lord Advocate whether he has now considered the matter of the Socialist Labour Press in Glasgow; and whether its liberties will be restored?
If the individuals whose names have been given me by my hon. Friend will each offer an undertaking in satisfactory terms with regard to the matter to be issued from the Press, my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate is prepared to adjust such an undertaking and to order restoration of the plant seized, on the undertaking being duly given.
Does that mean that I am to communicate with these gentlemen, or will the Lord Advocate or the Secretary for Scotland himself personally and authoritatively inform these gentlemen that they may resume business on these terms?
I think these gentlemen will have full information on the subject in the replies I have given my hon. Friend. The next move will be with them.
Discharged Sailors and Soldiers
asked the Postmaster-General whether he continues to make every endeavour to find employment in the Irish Post Office for discharged sailors and soldiers or for those who have relatives serving; whether he is aware that a discharged soldier, Edward Sheehy, with a suitable house and a large family to support, was an applicant for the subpostmastership at Multyfarnham, county Westmeath, and that the position was actually given to a woman without a house and with no other claim than that she had assisted the retiring sub-postmaster; and whether he intends to confirm the appointment?
Every endeavour continues to be made to find employment in the Irish Post Office for discharged soldiers and sailors. I am making inquiries as to the particular case referred to, and I will communicate with the hon. Member.
Civil Service Appointments
asked the Minister of Reconstruction, with reference to the intention of reserving from the beginning of demobilisation and for a year after permanent appointments in the Civil Service for ex-officers and ex-soldiers, whether such preference is to be restricted to only one year; and whether he can arrange that students of universities of attainments such as would have promised success in the open competition, but who lost their chance by joining the Colours, should have prior consideration for appointments for which their attainments and education can be proved to be suitable for a much longer period?
Preference will be given to men who have served with the forces in making appointments to the Civil Service after the War, during a period which will vary with different grades, and cannot at present be determined. In the case of Class I. appointments, to which I assume the hon. Member is mainly referring, the period will be at least two years after general demobilisation begins.
Food Supplies
Cows (Petersfield Market Duty)
asked the Food Controller whether he is aware that at the market held at petersfield on the 16th October four draft dairy cows were sold at auction for £2 each after having been placed in the fourth grade; whether the purchaser was charged a duty of £20 8s. on the four cows by the Food Control Office, a tax of 250 per cent. on his purchase; and whether he can state by what authority this tax was imposed?
The circumstances mentioned in the first part of the question are substantially correct. The auctioneer appears to have disregarded the instructions of the Ministry of Food with reference to the sale of fourth-grade boasts. He has been warned that if such a mistake recurs his licence will be withdrawn. The amount referred to in the second part of the question represents the per-head charge imposed under the Live Stock (Sales) Order. This charge covers the increased price to the farmer, slaughtering, market toll equalisation of costs for various descriptions of home and imported meat, and other administrative charges and expenses of transport and distribution generally. This charge is, for administrative reasons, a flat rate on all beasts, irrespective of grade, and it is necessary in order to enable all meat to be sold at a flat rate throughout the Kingdom.
Has the Department of the right hon. Gentleman not dismissed this man, who acted as the agent of the Department?
No, Sir; he has been severely cautioned.
Butchers' Complaints (Scotland)
asked the Food Controller whether a Court of Appeal, called the Smithfield Control Board, has been set up in London whereby aggrieved traders in the butchers' trade can get redress of complaints; whether a demand has been made in Glasgow to have a similar Appeal Court for Scotland on account of the action of his officials; and whether he propose, to grant such?
The Smithfield Board of Control was established in order to regulate the distribution of meat in Smithfield Market, not to redress complaints of retail traders, which should be made to the Allocator or Area Meat Agent. A request has been received from Glasgow for the establishment in that city of a similar board, but in view of the obvious misunderstanding which exists as to the precise functions of the board, it is not clear that any useful purpose would be served by its establishment.
Grapes Imported
asked the Food Controller, whether his attention has been called to the limitation by his Department on the quantity of grapes permitted to be imported, and the effect of this limitation on the prices being charged for the small importation; and can he see his way either to limit the price or remove the limitation on quantity?
The limitation on the quantity of grapes to be imported to this country was imposed by the Board of Trade as part of the general restrictions made necessary owing to the War. The limitation will be removed as soon as circumstances permit. The question of controlling the price of grapes has recently been under review, but it is not considered advisable under present conditions.
Milk
asked the Food Controller when the control over the supply of milk will be terminated?
I am afraid that I cannot make any statement on this matter at the present time.
International Trusts
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the existence of international trusts which operate the world's and home markets in meat, milk, wheat, and other essential foodstuffs with the result of the keeping up of prices to the hurt of the poor; and whether he proposes to introduce legislation for the purpose of making such trusts illegal?
I have been asked to reply. The Food Controller is aware that there are certain international combinations operating in food-stuffs as well as other commodities. The Inter-Allied Food Council may be trusted to combat the dangers arising from food combinations abroad, and the hon. Member may rest assured that effective measures will be taken to prevent any rigging of the markets by trade combinations at home.
Is it the case that there is any international trust in wheat?
Controlled Cereals (Prices)
asked if the President of the Board of Agriculture is able yet to say whether the prices paid to farmers for controlled cereals harvested in 1919 will be not less than those now current?
Yes, Sir; the answer is in the affirmative.
Sale of Firearms, Western Isles of Scotland
asked the Minister of Munitions whether he will explain why a notice has recently been issued prohibiting the sale of firearms and ammunition in Arran and the Western Isles of Scotland?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to answer this question. I have ascertained that this Order was made by the competent naval authority, and perhaps my hon. Friend will address his question to my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty.
Posthumous Naval Honours (Boys)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Admiralty have yet come to any decision as to the posthumous honour they will confer on the parents of boys in His Majesty's Navy who lost their lives in this War in circumstances of conspicuous gallantry?
As has already been announced in the Press, a memorial plaque and scroll have been approved by the King for issue to the next of-kin of all those who have lost their lives in the War.
Naval Shipwrights
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether the Commission which sat under Admiral Hyde Parker reported in favour of conferring the title of constructive officer on the shipwrights; and, if so, will the Admiralty now confirm that portion of the Report?
As the Report of this Committee is confidential, I am unable to disclose to my hon. and learned Friend the nature of its recommendations. The question of titles was very fully considered before those adopted were decided upon. The title "Constructive Officer" presented administrative difficulties which prevented it being accepted. My hon. and learned Friend is of course aware that in an answer which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee on 28th February I described the new titles then adopted. My recollection is that the changes then made met the views of those concerned.
Is not my right ton., Friend aware that the whole of the shipwrights signed a petition asking for this change to be made, and are we to understand that the result of this inquiry, at which all naval ratings were asked to attend and were consulted, is not to be made known to this House in order that the men may know whether or not a Report has been made in favour of their request?
All I can say is that many of the recommendations have been adopted, and I think my hon. and learned Friend must know they have been already published in the Press, and have been in Admiralty Orders some time ago.
But the particular point I raise is, will he say whether or not this request will be granted, and if not, did the Hyde Parker Commission report in favour or against it?
As I have said, the Report is confidential. But as I said before, we have considered the recommendation. The adoption of the title presented a good many difficulties. I do not know that that is the last word. We may look at it again.
Was not the Hyde Parker Commission subsequent to the refusal by the Admiralty to adopt the title; was not that Commission appointed to settle this very question amongst others; and was not that Report subsequently accepted by the Admiralty?
Certainly. But the Hyde Parker Commission surveyed a wide field and made many recommendations on many matters.
Prisoners in Civil Gaols (Release)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government are considering the question of the release of all persons from gaol who are alleged to be confined on religious, political, or conscientious grounds?
I can make no statement on this subject at present.
Will the right hon. Gentleman make it before the Session is over?
It is being examined now by a Committee, but I do not think any proceedings can be taken so soon as that.
Old Age Pensioners (Christmas Bonus)
asked the Prime Minister if he will consider the desirability of granting an extra bonus to all old age pensioners this Christmas, having regard to the smallness of their pensions, the high cost of living, and to celebrate the winning of the War; whether he is aware that they cannot afford to buy coal, and therefore must have better and more food; and if he will test the feeling of the House of Commons upon this matter before the Dissolution?
I am unable to accept this suggestion. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer to my reply of the 29th ultimo to the hon. Member for the Dublin Harbour Division.
Mr. W. Sutherland (Parliamentary Candidate)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that Mr. W. Sutherland was until recently an established Civil servant, and at what date he ceased so to be; whether, before that date, he had had any communication with a political organisation in the constituency for which he has been selected a candidate for Parliament in reference to such candidature; and whether his conduct was in accordance with the rules of the Civil Service?
I am informed that the gentleman referred to had resigned his appointment in the Civil Service before he had any communication with the political organisation of the constituency for which he is now a candidate.
Military Triumphal March (Counties)
asked the Prime Minister whether he; will arrange for a representative detachment from each county unit to make a triumphal march through its own recruiting district prior to demobilisation?
I am afraid my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion is not practicable.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say why?
I think it might be practicable after demobilisation, but not before.
Will he consider it when demobilisation comes?
Oh, certainly!
Prisoners of War Department (Inquiry)
asked the hon. Member for the Central Division of Sheffield whether it is proposed to institute an inquiry into the administration of the Prisoners of War Department?
All I know of this matter is that the head of the Department, Lord Newton, would himself welcome such an inquiry as is suggested.
May I ask whether, if any such inquiry is instituted, the terms of reference will be made wide enough to enable it to inquire into the conduct of all officials and departments who had to do with prisoners of war?
It is not possible for me to answer a question such as that without notice.
Prime Minister's Meeting (Telegrams)
asked whether the telegrams signed "Captain Guest, 12, Downing Street," stating that he was desired by the Prime Minister, Mr. Bonar Law, and Mr. Barnes to invite the recipients to attend a joint meeting of their supporters at the Central Hall, Westminster, on Saturday morning were sent out under the heading "O.H.M.S.," whether these telegrams were charged against public funds, and what sum of money was expended for this purpose?
Telegrams were sent out as stated, but there will be no expenditure out of public funds.
May I ask, then, how this sum will be repaid to the Public Accounts, and where we shall find the entry in regard to it?
The most simple method will be studied—and followed.
Spitzbergen
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can now give the House any information as to the results of the expedition to Spitzbergen during the summer of this year, when the British flag was again hoisted there, thus confirming the occupation by us of the place in the 17th century under agreement with the Dutch?
I have been asked by my right hon. Friend to answer this question. No, Sir; the moment does not seem opportune for such a statement.
British War Casualties
Total Losses
asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether he can now inform the House what have been the total British casualties in all theatres during the prosecution of the War?
The figures are necessarily incomplete, and I am afraid it will be some little time before exact figures can be given. But these are our figures up to the 10th November, 1918, including Dominions and Indian troops, for the various theatres of operations:—
Theatre of Operations. Killed (including Died from Wounds and Died from other Causes). Wounded. Missing (including Prisoners). Totals. Officers. Other Ranks. Officers. Other Ranks. Officers. Other Ranks. Officers. Other Ranks. France 32,769 526,843 83,142 1,750,203 10,846 315,849 126,757 2,592,895 Italy 86 941 334 4,612 38 727 458 6,280 Dardanelles 1,785 31,737 3,010 75,508 258 7,431 5,053 114,676 Salonika 285 7,330 818 16,058 114 2,713 1,217 26,101 Mesopotamia 1,340 29,769 2,429 48,686 566 14,789 4,335 93,244 Egypt 1,098 14,794 2,311 35,762 183 3,705 3,592 54,261 East Africa 380 8,724 478 7,276 38 929 896 16,929 Other Theatres 133 690 142 1,373 51 908 326 2,971 37,876 620,828 92,664 1,939,478 12,094 347,051 142,634 2,907,357 Grand total 3,049,991
I would mention that the numbers "missing" include 6,741 officers and 164,767 other ranks known to be prisoners of war; and also over 80,000 officers and other ranks whose deaths have been accepted for official purposes.
In addition to the above figures, there have been 19,000 deaths from various causes amongst troops not forming part of any of the Expeditionary Forces.
Can the right hon. Gentleman arrange for the publication of these figures in tabular form, so that we may see them in full detail?
Certainly, Sir.
May I ask whether, amongst the wounded, are included those who have been disabled on account of illness due to the War?
No, Sir.
Can we have the naval figures also?
The hon. Member must apply to the Admiralty.
May I ask whether, amongst the wounded, are officers and men who have been wounded several times and have been counted on several occasions?
Yes.
Would it be possible to get the Admiralty figures to-morrow, before the Houses rises?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman should give notice of that.
New Member Sworn
Alfred Hopkinson, Esquire, for South-East Lancashire (Prestwich Division).
CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT AND SEXUAL OFFENCES BILLS [Lords]
Report from the Joint Committee brought up, and read, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices (Inquiry not completed).
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 142.]
Orders of the Day
Business of the House
Ordered, That Government Business be not interrupted this night under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and may be entered upon at any hour although opposed.—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]
New Writ (Reigate Division)
Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [4 th November ], "That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a New Writ for the electing of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the County of Surrey (South-Eastern or Reigate Division) in the room of Colonel Richard Hamilton Rawson, deceased."
Question again proposed.
I ask leave to withdraw this Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Wages (Temporary Regulation) (Expenses)
Resolution reported,
"That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys provided by Parliament, of remuneration and expenses in connection with the Interim Court of Arbitration constituted under any Act of the present Session for prescribing minimum rates of wages during a limited period and for repealing certain provisions of the Munitions of War Acts, provided that the sum shall not exceed thirty thousand pounds."
Resolution agreed to.
Wages (Temporary Regulation) Bill
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Obligation to Pay Prescribed Rates of Wages for Six Months.)
(1) During the period of six months from the passing of this Act, any person who employs in any trade or industry a workman of a class to which a prescribed rate of wages as defined by this Act is applicable shall pay wages to the workman at a rate not less than the prescribed rate applicable to workmen of that class, or such other rate as may be substituted for the prescribed rate by an award of the Interim Court of Arbitration constituted as hereinafter mentioned, or by an agreement approved by the Minister of Labour on the advice of that Court, and if he fails to do so he shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and liable to a fine not exceeding five pounds for each day or part of a day during which the offence continues:
Provided that such a person shall not be liable to be convicted of an offence under this Act if he proves that he did not know and that he could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained that the wages paid were less than the wages required under this Section to be paid.
(2) An agreement for the payment of wages in contravention of this Section or for abstaining to exercise any right of enforcing payment of wages in accordance with this Section shall be void.
(3) The Minister of Labour may by Order exclude from the provisions of this Section any particular trade or industry or branch of a trade or industry or workmen of any class or description mentioned in the Order, but save as aforesaid this Section shall apply to all trades and industries.
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "or," to insert the words, "as respects all or any of the workmen of that class."
It will be seen that most of the Amendments on the Paper are of a drafting character. I may explain that this is largely due to the fact that the Bill was somewhat hurriedly prepared. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] That is not my fault, because the emergency arose very suddenly, and we had to prepare the Bill rather hurriedly. After the Bill was in draft we had to negotiate with the various parties concerned, and we found it utterly impossible to pass this Bill unless we were assured of the concurrence of the employers on the one hand and the workers on the other. I am glad to say we have secured the general assent of both parties, and the Committee will find that the various points dealt with in these Amendments are designed to meet the points of view of the two parties, or else they are of a drafting character. May I say in respect of the first three Amendments that they stand together, and it will be observed that in regard to Clause 1 they are designed to make obligatory the rates of wages now prevailing for the period of the ensuing six months, subject to their modification by an award of the Interim Court of Arbitration which it is proposed to set up under the Bill or by other forms of agreement as between the two parties.
It will be observed that under the Bill the prescribed rate can be altered by four different methods. (1) By an award of the Interim Court of Arbitration which it is proposed to set up under the Bill; (2) by steps taken by the Minister of Labour for a settlement of an advance; (3) by the settlement of a trade conciliation board; and (4) by agreement. With regard to the Interim Court of Arbitration the effect of an award would be to alter the prescribed rate, not only with respect to parties to the arbitration, but as respects the whole of the class of workmen, and for this reason under Clause 2 such differences cannot be referred to an Interim Court of Arbitration unless one of the parties represents a substantial pro portion of the persons to be affected. With respect to the other method of altering the prescribed rates there seems no reason if a practical agreement between an individual employer and his workmen is arrived at, why the prescribed rate as respects those workmen should not be altered, leaving the prescribed rate as respects all other workmen of that class unaffected, and similar to other methods of settlement, but it would be inadvisable to allow such agreement and settlements to be made without the consent of the Minister, as the result of such an agreement might seriously affect other work men and industries. We have had several instances during the war of the arrangements between employers and workmen which, while they might have been justified under normal circumstances, under war conditions they have had a serious effect in respect of other parts of the industry. Therefore it is proposed that there should be no departure from this, except with the concurrence of the Minister of Labour, in order that he may be able to appraise any such agreement in his general wages conditions. It does not seem necessary in such eases that the Minister should be required to act on the advice of the Interim Court of Arbitration, though he could always take that advice if he wished to do so. These three Amendments are to be taken together, and they represent the policy which I have outlined to the House.
I am sure we all welcome the measure which the Minister for Labour has just brought before the House. I would like to ask when these Courts of Arbitration or Conciliation Boards have agreed by common consent to the proposals submitted to them, by what method is the Arbitration Board going to enforce the settlements that are agreed upon. I think that no measure that has been brought before this House since the signing of the Armistice is so valuable as the one which is now before the House, and I think it is calculated to do a great national service in the way of securing that industrial contentment and peaceful relations between capital and labour which it is intended to secure. I can, as representing Labour interests in the country, support such an admirable and wisely conceived measure with all my heart. The only point that troubles me is as to whether or not the agreements between the employers on the one side and the workmen's representatives on the other will be of such a character as to win the confidence and, I hope, the acceptance of those who are affected by them. I would like to be informed by the Minister on that point, which is the only one that seems to me in doubt.
If my hon. Friend will turn to Clause 1 he will see that the rate of wages is subject to any variation which may be agreed upon by reference to the Interim Court of Arbitration or by the other methods prescribed in the Act, and if an employer fails to recognise such rate the Clause provides that
"he shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and liable to a fine not exceeding £5 for each day or part of a day during which the offence continues."
That gives the workman a statutory right to the rate of wages as prescribed under the Act and imposes a penalty on the employer if he fails to perform his obligations under the Act.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: After the word "agreement" ["or by agreement"], insert the words "or settlement."
Leave out the words "on the advice of that Court."—[ Mr. Roberts. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 2.—(Arbitrators.)
(1) For the purposes of this Act the Minister of Labour may constitute an Interim Court of Arbitration, consisting of persons representing employers, and persons representing workmen, and of independent persons from whom the chairman of the Court and of every division thereof shall be selected.
(2) Any difference as to whether a workman is a workman of a class to which a standard rate of wages is applicable, or as to what is the standard rate of wages, or as to whether any rate should be substituted for the standard rate, or as to what is the substituted rate of Wages, may be reported to the Minister of Labour by or on behalf of either of the parties to the difference, and the Minister shall thereupon refer the matter for settlement to the Interim Court of Arbitration, or, if in his opinion suitable means for settlement already exist in pursuance of an agreement made between the employers and persons employed, for settlement in accordance with those means:
Provided that the Minister of Labour shall not refer for settlement in accordance with this Section a difference as to whether any rate should be substituted for the prescribed rate unless he is satisfied that the report is made by or on behalf of a majority of the workmen to whom the prescribed rate in question is applicable, or by or on behalf of employers employing a majority of such workmen.
(3) Where an award has been so made by the Interim Court of Arbitration or in pursuance of such an agreement as aforesaid the Minister of Labour may, on the advice of the Interim Court of Arbitration, by Order direct that the award shall be binding on all workmen to whom the prescribed rate in question is applicable and the employers of those workmen.
(4) The Minister of Labour may refer to the Interim Court of Arbitration for advice any matter arising under this Act.
(5) The Arbitration Act, 1889, shall not apply to any reference under the provisions of this Act, but the Minister may make, or authorise the Interim Court of Arbitration to make, rules regulating the procedure of that Court, and those regulations may provide for the Court sitting in two or more divisions, and for enabling questions as to the interpretation of any award to be settled without any fresh report or reference.
(6) Where before the passing of this Act any matter has been referred for settlement to the Committee on Production and has not at that date been settled by the Committee, the matter shall by virtue of this Act be transferred to the Interim Court of Arbitration under this Act.
(7) There shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament to any person being a member of the Interim Court of Arbitration, and to any officers required in connection with that Court, such remuneration and travelling or other expenses ( including compensation for loss of time ) as the Minister of Labour, with the approval of the Treasury, may determine, and there shall also be so paid any other expenses of the Court to such an amount as may be sanctioned by the Treasury.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), leave out the word "standard" ["a standard rate of wages is applicable"], and insert instead thereof the word "prescribed."—[ Mr. Roberts. ]
Consequential Amendments made.
I beg to move, after the word "thereupon" ["the Minister shall thereupon refer the matter"], to insert the words
"consider the difference so reported and take any steps which seem to him expedient to promote a settlement of the difference and where the Minister has failed to settle the difference by such steps as aforesaid he shall."
The words proposed to be inserted are taken from Section 1, Sub-section (2), of the Munitions of War Act, 1915, so as to enable the Minister to settle the difference by bringing the parties together without referring the matter to the Court of Arbitration. The Amendment simply empowers the Minister to pursue a policy of conciliation. In the event of his failing, it then goes to arbitration.
May I thank my right hon. Friend for having put in this Amendment. It was a gap in the Bill. I hope he will find, if he continues to be Minister of Labour, that his energies more often than not will be successful without referring the matter to a Court of Arbitration.
Amendment agreed to.
I beg to move to leave out the word "majority" ["the Report is made by or on behalf of a majority of the workmen"], and to insert instead thereof the words "substantial proportion."
It would be difficult where a trade is unorganised, as is generally the case with women labour, to obtain an application on behalf of the majority of the persons employed. It is, therefore, proposed to substitute the words "substantial proportion." The reason for the Amendment is quite apparent, and I am sure that it will secure the acceptance of the Committee.
Amendment agreed to.
Consequential Amendment made.
Further Amendment made: In Subsection (3), after the word "award" ["where an award has been so made"], insert the words "determining or varying a rate."—[ Mr. Roberts. ]
I beg to move to leave out the words "in pursuance of such an agreement as aforesaid," and to insert instead thereof the words "an agreement or settlement for such purpose has been arrived at."
Where there is an alteration of the prescribed rate by agreement or by any other method of settlement other than an award, the alteration will only affect the parties to the agreement or settlement. It is advisable that there should be power to extend the rate as altered by the settlement or agreement to the whole class of workmen, but this should only be done on the advice of the Court of Arbitration. That, I think, will safeguard the interests of all concerned.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: Leave out the word "award" ["the award shall be binding"], and insert instead thereof the words "the determination or variation effected by the award, agreement, or settlement."
In Sub-section (6), leave out the words "to the committee on production," and insert instead thereof the words "under the Munitions of War Acts, 1915 to 1917."—[ Mr. Roberts. ]
I beg to move to leave out the words "committee, the matter shall by virtue of this Act be transferred to the Interim Court of Arbitration under this Act," and to insert instead thereof the words
"person or persons to whom it has been referred, the Minister of Labour may by Order transfer the matter to the Interim Court of Arbitration, and where any such matter has been so transferred the award of that Court shall have effect as if the matter had been referred to the Court under the foregoing provisions of this Section."
This Amendment deals with pending arbitrations. The Sub-section as drawn provides for the automatic transfer of all such proceedings or any such arbitrations to the Interim Court of Arbitration established by the Bill. In some instances the hearing will have been completed, and in such cases it would be a useless waste of time and money to have a rehearing. In other cases the reference may be on matters with which the Interim Court will not be concerned. On the other hand, there are cases where the reference has not been to the Committee on Production but to the special Arbitration Tribunal, constituted under Section 8 of the Act of 1916. It is therefore proposed to extend this Subsection so as to include any arbitration proceedings under the Munitions of War Act, and, secondly, to give the Minister of Labour a discretion whether the matter is one which should be transferred or not.
Amendment agreed to.
It will require at the end of Clause 2 an Amendment in consequence of the Amendment accepted to the Money Resolution.
I beg to move, in Subsection (7), at the end, to add the words "Provided that the aggregate amount so expended shall not exceed thirty thousand pounds."
Those hon. Members who were in the House last night will remember that I was pressed to include in the Money Resolution an estimate of the sum likely to be expended in respect of the expenses of the Arbitration Boards. I am sure I shall carry with me the assent of my right hon. Friend to this Amendment, the principle of which is very familiar to hon. Members. I agree that, if it is possible to come to the House with an estimate, the Department ought to be required to make an estimate whenever it is practicable. On a previous occasion I have assented to this principle and have agreed to the incorporation in the Money Resolution of the best estimate we could make in the circumstances. Last night I pointed out that this was a somewhat difficult case, because we had no definite data to work upon, but that nevertheless I had consulted those who advised me on the matter, and they had advised me that for the six months during the currency of this Bill our expenditure in respect of these matters should not exceed £30,000. I am not able to discuss the question of the figure of £20,000 or £30,000, but £30,000 is the figure which my advisers have advised me is the best estimate. Therefore I have agreed to the insertion in this Clause of the figure of £30,000, on the understanding that I do not definitely commit myself to it It may be, if we have to exceed that sum, that I shall have to proceed in the ordinary way and come to the House with a Supplementary Estimate. I am sure I shall carry hon. Members with me in my endeavour to keep the control of this House over expenditure.
I should like to point out to the Minister that no Supplementary Estimate would help. These words have to go into the Act of Parliament in consequence of what was accepted last night, and if he exceeds this amount it will require a fresh Act.
My right hon. Friend has certainly done right in following the recommendation of the Committee on National Expenditure, which strongly advised the House to insist upon such limits being put into Financial Resolutions in future. I quite sympathise with him in his difficulty of not knowing whether £30,000 will or will not be sufficient for the purposes of the Bill. I can assure him that, if he finds after the administration of the Bill that £30,000 does not cover the necessary expenditure, there will not be any opposition to his coming down to the House and having the Bill extended—that is, if there be some difficulty in procedure by way of Supplementary Estimate. For my own part and that of those whom I have consulted, we wish well to this Bill, and do not wish it to be handicapped through lack of money.
I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has taken this course. The only thing I regret is that there are not more members of the Government on the Front Bench to see how well he has behaved and how excellently his good behaviour is received in all quarters of the Committee. I hope he will set an example to his Friends on that bench.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3 ( Powers of Inquiry ), ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 4. (Definition of Prescribed Rate of Wages.)
(1) For the purposes of this Act the prescribed rate of wages shall be as follows:
( a ) As respects a man or boy employed in any trade or industry or branch of a trade or industry in a district the prescribed rate shall be the district time rate or other recognised basis for determining wages (with any overtime, night work, week-end or holiday allowances and advances given during the War) generally applicable on the eleventh day of November nineteen hundred and eighteen to that class of workmen in that trade or industry or branch thereof in that district:
( b ) As respects a man or boy engaged in the sea service the rate shall be the prescribed rate payable on the said date to seamen or apprentices to the sea service of the class to which he belongs:
( c ) As respects a woman or girl employed in a trade or industry, or branch of a trade or industry, in a district on work of a class the wages paid for which by employers employing the majority of women or girls engaged on such work in the trade or industry or branch thereof in the district were on the said date regulated by an Order under the Munitions of War Acts, 1915 and 1917, or an award, the prescribed rate shall be time rate or other basis for determining wages (with any overtime, night work, week-end or holiday allowances, and advances given during the War) payable under or in consequence of the said Order or award:
( d ) As respects a woman or girl employed in a trade or industry or branch of a trade or industry in a district on work the wages paid for which were on the said date subject to an agreement between employers employing a majority of women or girls engaged on that work in the trade or industry or branch thereof in the district and one or more trade unions, the prescribed rate shall be the time rate or other basis for determining wages (with any overtime, night work, week-end or holiday
( e ) As respects a woman or girl to whom neither of the last two paragraphs applies, the prescribed rate shall be the time rate or other basis for determining wages (with any overtime, night work, week-end, or holiday allowances and advances given during the War) paid on the said date by employers employing a majority of women or girls engaged on the same class of work in the trade or industry or branch thereof in the district in which she is employed, unless some other rate is fixed by the Minister of Labour on the advice of the Interim Court of Arbitration in which case the rate so fixed shall be the prescribed rate: Provided that—
I beg to move, in Subsection (1), paragraph ( a ), to leave out the word "district" ["shall be the district time rate"], and to insert instead thereof the word "recognised."
I may say that all the Amendments to this Clause are drafting Amendments.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In Subsection (1), paragraph ( a ), leave out the word "recognised."
After the word "any" ["with any overtime"], insert "allowances for."
Leave out the words "holiday allowances and advances given during the War," and insert "holidays when worked and additional war bonuses or war advances."
In paragraph ( b ), leave out the words "man or boy engaged," and insert "person employed."
After the word "the" ["the rate shall be"], insert "prescribed."
Leave out the word "prescribed" ["shall be the prescribed rate"].
Leave out the words "seamen or apprentices to the sea service," and insert "persons."
Leave out the word "he" ["the class to which he belongs"], and insert the words "that person."
In paragraph ( c ), leave out the word "and" ["1915 and 1917"], and insert "to."
After the word "be" ["the prescribed rate shall be"], insert "the."
After the word "any" ["with any overtime"], and insert "allowances for."
Leave out the words "holiday allowances and advances given during the War," and insert "holidays when worked and additional war bonuses or war advances."
In paragraph ( d ), after the word "any" ["with any overtime"], insert "allowances for."
Leave out the words "holiday allowances and advances given during the War," and insert instead thereof "holidays when worked and additional war bonuses or war advances."
In paragraph ( e ), after the word "any" ["with any overtime"], insert "allowance for."
Leave out the words "holiday allowances and advances given during the War," and insert instead thereof "holidays when worked and additional war bonuses or war advances."
In proviso ( i ), after the word "any" ["with any overtime"], insert the words allowances for."
Leave out the words "holiday allowances and advances given during the War," and insert instead thereof "holidays when worked and additional war bonuses or war advances."
Leave out the word "for" ["payable for such work"], and insert instead thereof "to women and girls employed on."
In proviso ( ii ) leave out the words "the rate which is the prescribed rate as so defined is altered by virtue of an award made after the said date, and before the passing of this Act," and insert instead thereof "arbitration proceedings have been commenced before the passing of this Act, and the rate which is the prescribed rate as hereinbefore defined is, or has been, altered by an award in those proceedings, taking effect after the said eleventh day of November."
—[ Mr. G. Roberts. ]
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
CLAUSE 5.—(Legal Proceedings.)
(1) Proceeding for offences under this Act shall be taken before munitions tribunals of the second class in like manner as for offences under the Monitions of War Acts, 1915 to 1917, and the provisions of those Acts shall apply accordingly:
Provided that proceedings against an employer may be instituted by or on behalf of a trade union.
(2) In any proceedings under this Act for failure to pay wages as required by this Act the tribunal may, whether there is a conviction or not, order the employer to pay in addition to the fine (if any) such sum as appears to the tribunal to be due to the workman employed on account of wages, the wages being calculated at the prescribed or such substituted rate as aforesaid, and if in any such proceedings it appears to the tribunal that any such question as is mentioned in Sub-section (2) of Section two of this Act arises the tribunal shall refer the question for settlement by the Interim Court of Arbitration.
Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after the word "Acts" ["provisions of those Acts"], insert the words "relating to munitions tribunals and proceedings before them, including the provisions as to appeals."
I beg to move, at the end of the same Sub-section, to add the words "and any party to any such proceedings may appear by an officer of a trade union or federation of employers to which he belongs." It was felt that while we give this power to a trade union it is only fair that the representatives of an employers' organisation should have equal rights with the trade union in these matters.
I take it for granted that this means that only officials of the federation may appear. It does not mean that a solicitor or barrister should appear on behalf of either of the parties. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will make that perfectly clear.
It is not intended that either party should brief counsel to appear before the tribunal, but if it happens that a solicitor or barrister is an official of the federation, or of the union, you cannot prevent him appearing.
I am very much afraid that this will be an encouragement to one or other of the parties interested in this Bill to appoint as one of their officials a barrister or solicitor, and this will place the party which does not possess a solicitor or barrister among its officials at a disadvantage before the tribunal. What will be the position if an employers' association is represented by a barrister before the tribunal? If the men's trade union applies for permission to engage a solicitor or barrister for them, will it be granted? It seems to me that there is room for a little friction arising in this direction.
I am afraid it is utterly impossible for one to provide absolutely against such a contingency as that hinted at by the hon. Member. We are anxious that the Courts should not be regarded as Courts of litigation, and as far as we possibly can, we desire that neither of the parties should brief counsel for any purpose under this Bill, but I do not see how we can grant a trade union the right to appear before the tribunal, and refuse permission to the other side.
I agree there.
And I do not see how we can provide against a trade union appointing as one of its officials a person who may be a barrister. I quite realise the point which my hon. Friend is raising, but I hope we may rely on the good sense of both parties to see that no friction arises in this matter in regard to the arbitration. My hon. Friend and myself are animated by the same purpose. I am hopeful that during the operation of this Bill the two parties will be animated by good will to do the best they can for the country's interest, because I am sure that if in the six months covered by the Bill we have industrial strife the interests of the country will be seriously prejudiced. If an official of one or other of the parties happens to be a person with legal training, I do not see how we can exclude him from appearing before the tribunal.
I think the point raised by the hon. Member for the Westhoughton Division is an important one, but the difficulty could be easily guarded against if the Government would only consent to insert words to the effect that no barrister or solicitor should appear before the tribunal. The Clause would read "should appear by an officer of the trade union or federation of employers, not being a barrister or solicitor." I hope the Government will consent to the inclusion of these words. It would be perfectly fair to both sides, and would prevent a great deal of money being spent on legal technicalities.
I am afraid there is great difficulty in dictating to any organisation as to what class of person they shall not appoint as one of their officials. We must bear in mind that the Bill presupposes that these officials are already appointed, not because they are solicitors but because they are experts in trade union questions. I think we may have confidence in the good will of both parties.
The words I suggest would not prevent an organisation from appointing a solicitor or barrister as one of its officials, and I quite agree we could not go so far as that, but we could provide that no solicitor or barrister should appear before an inquiry of this sort.
And the result then would be that assuming a federation or trade union, two or three years ago, appointed as their secretary a man who had legal training, they would have to appoint another secretary. Seeing that this Bill is only to be enforced for a period of six months, is it likely that during those six months a trade union or a federation of employers would get rid of its present secretary in order to appoint someone with legal knowledge? I cannot conceive any situation arising such as that feared by the hon. Member (Mr. Tyson Wilson), and I think we would be doing a great injustice to existing officials of trade unions by inserting such a provision.
Many of us are accustomed to meet representatives of employers who are men with legal training, and we certainly have no objection to meeting them when they hold an official position. The only way one can safeguard against what is feared here is to put in the words that counsel shall not be briefed to appear before the tribunal. In the many negotiations I have been engaged in during the past years, I have not found the least objection to meeting officials on the other side who have had a legal training. We have nothing to fear from that point of view.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendment made: In Subsection (2), leave out the words "such question as is mentioned in Sub-section (2) of Section 2 of this Act arises," and insert instead thereof the words
"question arises as to whether there is a prescribed or substituted rate applicable to the class to which the workmen belong or as to what is the prescribed or substituted rate for that class."
I beg to move, in the same Sub-section, to leave out the words "refer the question for settlement by the Interim Court of Arbitration," and insert instead thereof the words
"report the question to the Ministry of Labour who shall proceed thereon as if it were a difference reported to him by one of the parties to the difference."
The object of this Amendment is to enable the Ministry of Labour to take advantage of existing conciliation machinery instead of referring the matter to arbitration.
I understand the right hon. Gentleman simply means to make use of some of the machinery already in existence?
I think it desirable if there is machinery already in existence recognised by the two parties, that machinery should be utilised under this Bill, or, on the other hand, that the Minister of Labour should not be compelled automatically to refer matters to the Court of Arbitration, but that he should be allowed to exercise his ordinary powers of conciliation by bringing the two parties together. I am sure that it is a much more fruitful means of settling these points.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 6 ( Repeal of Certain Provisions of the Munitions of War Acts ) and Clause 7 ( Short Title ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported; as amended, considered; read the third time, and passed.
Ministry of Munitions Bill
Order for Second Reading read.
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
This Bill has become necessary owing to doubts which have arisen as to whether the purposes for which the Ministry of Munitions was established under the Act of 1915 can be said to cover purposes connected with the demobilisation and the transfer of industries from the production of munitions to peace production. The Act establishing the Ministry in the first Section states: powers which were given to the Ministry for the purpose of war production may be used to assist the reverse process of getting back rapidly to peace production. Unless that is made clear the work of the demobilisation and transfer of industry cannot be safely and effectively carried out.
While it is true that certain raw materials and articles are no longer immediately necessary for the purposes for which the Ministry was established, there is urgent demand for peace production, and the demand greatly exceeds the supply. In regard to one particular material over which the Ministry has been exercising control—namely, building bricks—I am informed that the supply is only 50 per cent. of the demand. Certainly, during recent months every brick that has been made in this country has been directed to the specific purpose of building aerodromes. With this limited supply and this greatly increased demand for peace purposes it is essential, and we are so advised by those who speak for the building industry, that power should be retained to see that the production of this particular commodity should be directed to peace purposes of a kind which are in the permanent interest of the country. Unless there is some means of seeing that the bricks which are produced are used for those purposes which are in the interest of the nation, they will go to those who are prepared to pay the highest price. That applies to a number of other articles. The Ministry is exercising control over fertilisers, and over the price of agricultural implements. And we are told that if the Government suddenly ceases to exercise its control over the price, and if necessary the direction of such material chaos will result in the industry, and the prices which will be charged to the consumer, in this case the agricultural interest, will be greatly in excess of those which prevail under the Orders. There can be no restraint of profiteering, and the industry will be at the mercy of those few fortunate persons who happen to have at their disposal a very limited supply of certain essential materials.
It may be contended that the existing Orders, having been issued while the power of the Minister extended only to the production of munitions, do not apply to and are not valid for the new problems which are now facing industry, and it is in order to set that doubt at rest and to obviate the necessity for the re-issue of existing Orders that the Bill provides that the Orders are to have effect as though they had originally been issued at the time when the Minister's functions comprised the functions conferred on him by the Bill. I should like to make it clear that there is no desire on the part of the Ministry to continue any existing Orders, a moment longer than is necessary in the interests of industry. There is no gratification to the Minister in the issue of these Orders. It may be decided to transfer the exercise of these Orders to some other Government Department. For instance, the control of fertilisers and agricultural implements may be transferred to the Board of Agriculture, and the control of bricks may be transferred to the Board of Trade. I am advised that that transfer cannot take place immediately. There would be a delay running into weeks, or possibly months, in the interval before it could be made, and we are told there would be a state of chaos in those industries if the control were suddenly cut short. The urgency of the problem is immediate. A Committee of the House is now sitting to consider war emergency legislation and what steps shall be taken in regard to it. The Dissolution makes it impossible for the Committee to report for some time. It has not yet concluded its deliberations, but when it has concluded and makes its Report and Parliament decides what action shall be taken upon it, it is clear that an interval of months must elapse. There must be some way of bridging over that interval, and this Bill provides the bridge. If there is any substance in these doubts which have been expressed—and I think there is—as to whether the powers of the Ministry can properly be used in the reverse process, it ought immediately to be got out of the way. Representations have already been made to us from several industries as to the chaotic conditions which might arise if a sudden end is made to the Regulations which have been issued affecting these industries. The Bill does not prolong the life of the Ministry. That is determined by the Ministry of Munitions, 1915. I will read the words—
Does this Bill come to an end within twelve months after the conclusion of the War?
Certainly. Any powers given by this Bill will come to an end with the ending of the Ministry. Every Order, so far as the Orders of the Ministry have been made under the Defence of the Realm Regulations, unless previously revoked, expires on the conclusion of peace. I hope the House will let us have the Bill, for which there is urgent need. I have not thought it necessary to develop particular instances, because I feel sure the House will recognise that the Bill would not have been brought forward under these circumstances unless we had sufficient concrete examples to show the need which exists for it.
5.0 P.M.
The House will be rather disposed to regard with some suspicion any Bill which extends existing powers of control into the peace period. They have been acquiesced in by the nation from the necessity of the case, but control is not enjoyed. It is resented, and I think that people of all classes are looking forward at the earliest possible date to recovering their much-prized liberty. But I think my hon. Friend has shown us—indeed, the fact was patent before—that some measure of control is essential during the transition period. When the War is over it does not follow that war conditions immediately terminate. Peace may be signed one day, but it may be weeks or months before shipping and labour supply are restored to their normal condition. Meantime, there may be a scramble for goods and prices will soar. Prices depend upon supply, supply depends upon labour, and this country largely depends upon shipping, and until there is an abundance of shipping and an abundance of labour the supply may be restricted and fall short of the demand, with the result that prices, instead of falling, as everyone hopes, may, in respect of certain commodities, remain at their present height or even rise higher. If that result were to occur, I think the Government and this House would be blamed for not having taken steps to prevent that eventuality. My hon. Friend has given us an illustration in the case of the manufacture of bricks. The whole House is keenly interested in the proposals for dealing now, once and for all, with the defects of the housing of the working classes. We look forward to a very large measure being adopted immediately on the termination of the War to supply not merely a small number but literally hundreds of thousands of houses both in town and in country to supply, once and for all, the crying evils that have existed for so long. If, meantime, all control over the production of bricks is relaxed, it would simply mean that the brick manufacturers would be able to ask what prices they chose for the execution of contracts essential for the carrying out of these building schemes. The Government are well advised, therefore, in maintaining in the national interests, even into times of peace, the control which now exists over this particular trade, and no doubt there are many similar examples which could be given.
I had some doubts as to the working of the Bill when I first saw it—it was only circulated to-day—as to whether it did not, in fact, extend powers under the Defence of the Realm Act beyond the date at which they would expire, and that when the country and Parliament thought that the Defence of the Realm Act had gone, and all the Regulations under it had disappeared, it might be found that by this Bill we had perhaps unwittingly, carried forward certain of the powers now exercised by the Ministry of Munitions. I am assured on this point after the words of the hon. Member I am assured that the words in line 17, "until they expire," really meet this point, and that there is no concealed danger of the kind mentioned. This Bill has a most beneficent and welcome object, the conversion of our industries of war back to the more fruitful and beneficent industries of peace, and the only suggestion I have to make in regard to the Bill is that perhaps a more suitable title than the Ministry of Munitions Bill, 1918, might be found, and that the Bill might be called the Sword into Ploughshare Conversion Bill, 1918.
I had a little doubt when I first read the Bill as to what actually it might do. It is not at all clear, and therefore on that point I was very doubtful. The first doubt was as to the duration of the Bill. On first looking at it, it did not appear to have a time-limit at all, and the second doubt was whether or not Orders already given by the Ministry of Munitions might not be extended indefinitely. I am glad to say that the explanation given by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Kellaway) is quite clear, that the Bill will not extend for more than twelve months after the signing of peace, and that the orders will expire in the ordinary way under an Act which is already in existence, and will not be renewed by any Clause in this Bill. I think that is right. Therefore the objections which seem to me to be rather important have been got over by the hon. Gentleman's remarks. The only question I would like to put in regard to the Bill is whether it would not be possible to make the period six months instead of twelve months. Six months after the signing of peace may be nine months from now, or possibly a little longer, and it seems to me that it would be better to make it a little bit shorter than to continue it for twelve months, which might possibly mean fifteen months from now. I do not think it would be longer, but it might be a bit longer than that. There are two sets of opinions in the country in regard to the continuation of these powers of control. A very large number of people are strongly averse to it. I have received two or three letters this morning from persons engaged in trade, asking me to do my best to bring the period of control to an end as soon as possible. On the other hand, there are people who think that while it is necessary to continue the control, and while they would desire it to be terminated, they realise that there must be a certain period during which a certain amount of control must be kept on. Both parties are more or less right.
The only question is how long should the period of control be, and I am inclined to think that the period in the Bill is a little too long. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman can make any concession in regard to that. The powers are very drastic, because apparently the Minister will be enabled to control the production of bricks or to pass his powers on to another Department, and he may control the production of agricultural implements and the production of fertilisers. In regard to the control of the production of bricks there may be something in it, but I am rather doubtful whether the control of agricultural implements and fertilisers can result in any good. It is quite possible by control to keep the price down a bit, but what is required at the present time are fertilisers, and if a slightly higher price has to be paid it would be better to pay the higher price and get the fertilisers than to do without them. The same applies to agricultural implements. I hope the powers under the Bill will be exercised reasonably and not in too drastic a manner. I hope the hon. Member will be able to give us some assurance as to the period.
I think the House should welcome this measure as being necessary. The House is aware that the Munitions Department took over the factories of this country in order to transfer their work from peace work to war work, and powers were given to the Department to bring that about. Now the necessity arises for transferring the work back again in these factories from war to peace and the Munitions Department find that they have not the powers necessary to carry out that transaction and they have brought this measure before the House in order to get the powers. That is a matter which the House should welcome. I had a fear, and I think other hon. Members had the same fear, that this measure might extend the powers and life of the Ministry of Munitions too far, but we have learned that that is not so, and that the Bill will in no way extend the life of the Ministry of Munitions and the interference of that Department with the trade of the country. At the same time it will give the Department the necessary powers to transfer work back to peace methods, and that being so the Bill should be accepted readily.
I confess that this Bill to a certain extent makes me uncomfortable. I have a good deal to do with the chemical industry, and nearly every branch of the chemical industry is controlled at the present time. I had occasion to see a branch of the Ministry of Munitions as one of an advisory committee only a few days ago, and I understood then that it was under consideration whether this particular branch might not finish. A great many of the activities of the Department of Munitions have become unnecessary, and we understood it was the intention of the Government to get rid of them very quickly. It is quite possible that the work they have been doing could be transferred to another Department. I do not think the House realises how absolute the control of many industries has been during the War. The industry I have to do with could buy nothing without the consent of the Government and could sell to nobody without the consent of the Government, and every month had to render a list of their customers and what had become of everything that they manufactured. One does not want in a vague Bill of this kind to give the Government powers which Members of this House do not realise at the moment. I am not attacking the intentions of the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, but I do say that a Bill of this kind, which is very vague, does bring a sense of discomfort to me, because there may be very much more serious control arising out of it than is apparent in the wording of the Bill. I did not hear all the speech of the Minister in charge, because I was engaged elsewhere, but I do think he might give us a little more information and let us know really how the matter stands. How does this Bill affect the powers at present held, and how will it affect the industries in regard to control in the future? This Bill may carry great consequences, and I think we ought to have more information about it. I did not know that it was to be introduced. The chemical industry knows nothing whatever about the Bill. It may be perfectly harmless, but on reading it and having heard something that has been said here in regard to it I have my doubts about it.
I cannot express too strongly my regret that this Bill was not introduced a few days earlier. A Bill of this importance ought not to be introduced on the last day of the Session, and certainly not if there is anything behind it. It is very difficult, as the last speaker said, at a moment's notice to see whether or in what respect it does extend the powers. The chief instance that the hon. Gentleman gave in introducing the Bill was the brick trade and the control of prices. Does he tell us that without this Bill under the Defence of the Realm Act there would be no power to control the price of bricks? That is a case in regard to which the House is thoroughly agreed. We are agreed that this is no time to permit profiteering, or the holding up of the essential supplies of the nation, but that is quite a different thing from extending the powers of a Department to control and to a certain extent inevitably, with the best intentions in the world, to hamper independent initiative in trade. We quite recognise the great work which this Department has done and the able officials that it contains, but it is inevitable that many of them would like to feel that if they are doing good their powers should continue. That, I think, is a matter which ought to be discussed thoroughly on the Floor of this House, and not leave to the very last twenty-four hours of Parliament to rush a Bill through all its stages. If it is so urgently needed, it is a great pity it was not discovered a little earlier. I quite appreciate the remarks of my hon. Friend in introducing the Bill and in instancing certain cases where it is most desirable that these powers should be extended, but the House wants some reassurance that the powers will not be used for the purpose of hampering trade or continuing the Department longer than is absolutely necessary, because in all departments of trade and commerce it is recognised that as soon as control can be dispensed with it is essential in the interests of the nation that that should be done.
With the leave of the House I would like to reply to some of the points that have been raised. No one knows better than I that control is unpopular, and we should all be glad to get rid of control if it could be done, but there is a consensus of opinion that to make a clean cut now of all control would, in a certain number of instances create chaos. There is, however, nothing in this Bill which extends the power of the Ministry, or can extend the duration of the life of the Ministry. This Bill is intended to do nothing more, and can do nothing more than bridge over the interregnum when the Orders made under the Defence of the Realm Regulations cease altogether, or, as may be the case. Parliament may decide that they should cease altogether. The right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) asked if we could not shorten the period. There is no period in the Bill; these powers must come to an end with the end of the Ministry, but in all probability most of them will come to an end earlier, because the necessity for them will, we hope, have passed away. But to put in a period—
If the hon. Gentleman will look at the Bill which we have just passed—the Wages (Temporary Regulations) Bill—he will see that at the beginning of Clause 1 these words, "during a period of six months from the passing of this Act." That would not be an unreasonable limit.
I would like to know whether the powers, which now belong to the Ministry of Munitions, can be transferred to some other Department like the Board of Trade or the Board of Agriculture? That point is being discussed with reference to certain commodities at the present time, and one does not know what would ensue if there is power of transfer and the powers did not come to an end when the Ministry of Munitions ceased, but were transferred.
The transfer of powers under the Defence of the Realm Regulations would not affect the matter. They must come to an end at the conclusion of peace. I hope the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) will not press me any further in regard to a limited period, as the statements which I have made show that the period cannot go either beyond the conclusion of peace or the end of the Ministry.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a second time.
Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[ Colonel Gibbs. ]
Bill accordingly considered in Committee.
[Mr. J. W. WILSON in the Chair.]
CLAUSE 1.—(Extension of Purposes of Ministry.)
The purposes of the Ministry of Munitions shall include the supervision and regulation of the diversion to the production of articles required in times of peace, of industries established or utilised during the present War for the purpose of the production of war material, and all powers which may be exercised by the Minister of Munitions with a view to facilitating the supply of war material or otherwise for promoting the prosecution of the present War may be exercised by him with a view to securing that such diversion as aforesaid shall be carried into effect in such a manner as may be most conducive to the national interests, and all orders, requirements, directions, regulations, rules, and notices made or given by the Minister and in force at the passing of this Act shall, until they expire or are altered or revoked, continue in force as if this Act had been in force at the time when they were made or given.
I beg to move, at the beginning of the Clause, to insert the words
"During the period of six months from the passing of this Act."
These are the words which were in the Bill which we have just passed, which was a Bill of a somewhat similar character. It is a Bill extending to a certain time powers connected with the War. I raise this question for the purpose of getting from the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Kellaway) an answer on this point. I do not think that it would interfere with the carrying out of the objects of this Bill to insert a period. As I understand from the explanation, there is a limit in the old Act of 1915 which provides that the Ministry of Munitions shall come to an end within a period of twelve months from the signing of peace. That is a rather long time. Six months, which is now suggested, is a considerable period, and if during that six months it is not possible to bring these powers to an end there will be nothing to prevent a short Bill of one Clause being passed extending the period. It is only reasonable that some limit should be put into this Bill, and I trust that the hon. Gentleman will accept the Amendment.
I support the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet. The matter seems to me of great importance as time is of the essence of the contract. Take the case of a particular article which has been utilised for production of war material—sulphuric acid. The demand for sulphuric acid for war purposes has been stopped. Does the Ministry intend to direct a manufacturer of sulphuric acid to produce it only under his direction? This Bill gives him the power to do that. Does it take away the option from the manufacturer and give it to the Ministry? If it does, it is quite obvious that six months is the longest time for which they should be granted this power. The words of the Clause give the Ministry that power and enable them to gay that war plant which the manufacturer may want to devote to one purpose shall be used by him for another purpose.
The effect of this Amendment would be that at the end of six months the Ministry of Munitions would have to revert entirely to its war powers. It would no longer have any powers, however great the necessity existing at the time, of insisting on the continuance of the transfer of the industry from war production to peace production. While it is true that under the Ministry of Munitions Act the Ministry of Munitions must come to an end within twelve months from the conclusion of the War, it is also provided that it may come to an end at such earlier dates as may be fixed by His Majesty in Council. So, while the longest period for which the Ministry can continue is twelve months after the conclusion of peace, it may end at any earlier period if His Majesty so decide by Order in Council.
If the Government so decide!
My right hon. Friend has forgotten more about the House than I have ever known, but he will admit that, if it was the view of the House that the Ministry ought to come to ah end, they would take good care to see that the Government carried out that view. I hope that in these circumstances the right hon. Baronet will not press the Amendment now. In reference to the chemical industry which has been alluded to by the hon. Baronet, than whom nobody has done more in helping the Ministry in this particular industry, I know that control has not been popular, but there is nothing here which will increase the power of the Ministry. This measure does not increase the duration or increase any powers which we now possess. What we want to do is to bring to an end at the earliest possible moment such powers as we now possess, but where orders which have now been made—no fresh orders can be made—are proved to be necessary to assist the transfer of the production of chemicals from the making of explosives to the making of fertilisers, from the purposes of destruction to humane purposes, we want the power to continue.
There is an extension of powers.
No; there is no extension of powers. What it says is that powers now possessed may be used for a different purpose.
I gave the concrete case of sulphuric acid. The Government quite properly have controlled it because it has been wanted for the production of munitions of war. That is so no longer. I know instances in which the whole of the orders for making munitions have been cancelled, and I know factories to-day where the sulphuric acid plant has nothing to do. Naturally, these people are looking for a fresh outlet for the sulphuric acid. So far as I know, this allows the Ministry afterwards, if they decide that a larger quantity of fertilisers is wanted in the interests of the country, to take away the acid from the control of the manufacturer, who, meanwhile, has been making fresh arrangements of his own, and the Ministry can come in again and say, "We are going to exercise powers of control over the manufacturers as we did before, not for the purposes of munitions of war, but for the purposes of agriculture." To give that control in a Bill introduced in this sort of way is something which the Government has no right to do. If the Bill means what I say, it ought to be withdrawn.
I will only repeat what I have said. The Bill does not extend the powers already possessed either in their duration or in their nature.
What the hon. Baronet says is quite correct, because the Bill deals with industries which have been utilised for the production of war material during the present War, and that has been the case in the chemical industry. If it is desired to use sulphuric acid for other purposes, to my mind it is much better to do so and more in the national interests. In these circumstances I still think it would be better if my Amendment had been accepted, but in view of what is going on I do not want to press it, and I therefore ask leave to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
I beg to move, to leave out the words "or utilised."
I do not think the hon. Member knows what powers this Bill will give him, and, if these words are left in, it places the manufacturers of a great many things in a most unfair position, and I do appeal to the hon. Member to meet what are reasonable apprehensions as I am inclined to think, though I had not seen this Bill until a quarter of an hour ago. He might bake out the words "or utilised." I am not asking him to deny himself any powers he may want for Government factories themselves, but over factories used for purposes of munitions, belonging to firms who have been established for a great many years, and now have plans of their own for using materials that have been required for munitions in other directions. If he is to have power to take away all initiative from them, I think it is disastrous, and I do not think the House realises it is giving such powers. I appeal to him to accept some limitation in this way and take out the words "or utilised."
I think on reflection my hon. Friend will see that this is an Amendment which could not be accepted. It would really destroy the whole nature of the Bill. He wants to except from this Bill the proposal that industries shall be utilised. The case which I gave to the House on the Second Reading was that of the brick-making industry, where for war purposes during the War we have had to control the price and direction of supply. Will anybody say we ought not to be able to retain the same control over the price of bricks and the direction of supply?
That is all very well, but there are whole classes who have to give up the whole of their operations to help the Ministry of Munitions. They have discarded plans of their own that would have given them security in the future, and they have had to devote themselves entirely to the requirements of the State. I do not think we can have any right to come down here, and without notice, ask the House to give the Government powers to continue that sort of drastic control. I think there are four or five thousand manufacturing firms making the munitions of war. To have control of their operations, to tell them that they may do this and not do the other, and to take away their whole power and initiative is a serious thing. I think the Minister is asking something he ought not to have, because it is quite evident that these powers are going to be very drastic. Very far-reaching, and of great consequence. I feel very strongly it is not fair for the Government to come down and ask the House to give it these powers without the industries knowing anything about it, or one Member in a hundred realising what powers are being given to it.
I agree with my hon. Friend that the powers in this measure are very sweeping, and if my hon. Friend had acted as I advised him, he would have divided on the question of limiting to six months the action of this measure. I do not think the commercial community are aware of the drastic nature of this measure and there ought to be some limitation of the powers. My hon. Friend in charge of it is evidently desirous of having the whole Bill and nothing but the Bill and will suffer no interference in the way of limitation. The commercial community will be surprised that they are so thoroughly in the hands of the Ministry of Munitions in conducting their affairs. I would have divided on the limitation of time. But this particular limitation is a limitation of the factories which are to come under the jurisdiction hereafter of the Ministry of Munitions. The leaving out of these two words will enable the Ministry to deal with national factories, but factories utilised by the Ministry of Munitions will be left out. I think it would be an advantage, on the whole, if this limitation were fixed. It is fairly sweeping, more sweeping than the limitation of time. At the same time, the evil is so great of taking away the initiative of factories for an indefinite period that the Under-Secretary should really see his way to acquiesce in the suggestions of those who are interested in the commercial interest of the country and should take their advice and in some way agree to limit his powers.
Amendment negatived.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2 ( Short Title ) ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.
Housing Bill
Order for Committee read and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Naval and Military War Pensions Bill, with Amendments.
Naval and Military War Pensions Bill
Lords Amendments to be considered forthwith—[ Sir A. Griffith-Boscawen ]; considered accordingly, and agreed to.
The remaining Order was read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 13th February, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."
I desire to ask if any Member on the Treasury Bench will tell us what the Government propose to do with the starving prisoners in Germany who have been turned out. Sixty thousand of our men have been turned out without food. Ought we not to say we will send no food until they feed our prisoners? The Government really ought to take some action in the matter.
I have had no notice that this question would be raised, but I will immediately convey it to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hope), and I am sure he will give it immediate attention.
Question put, and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Sixteen minutes before Six o'clock.