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Commons Chamber

Volume 110: debated on Thursday 21 November 1918

House of Commons

Thursday, November 21, 1918

Oral Answers to Questions

Food Supplies

Bacon

asked the Food Controller what is the wholesale price of imported smoked bellies of bacon and of best smoked English sides?

I am sending the hon. and gallant Member the information for which he asks.

The following is the information referred to:

The wholesale price of

(1) Imported American cut bellies, pale dried or smoked, is now 171s. per cwt.,

(2) Imported English cut bellies, pale dried or smoked, is now 228s. per cwt., and

(3) English sides, pale dried or smoked, is now 199s. 6d. per cwt.

Lymm Pure Salt

asked the Food Controller if he is aware that the price of Lymm pure salt has been increased from 27s. per ton to 38s. 6d. per ton; if he can give any reasons for the increase in the charge; and whether he intends to take any action in the matter?

The Food Controller is aware that there has been a considerable increase in the price of salt. He has instructed the Costings Branch of the Ministry to ascertain the reasons for this increase and to report upon the advisability of fixing prices.

Sugar

asked the Food Controller whether there is any possibility of some sugar being imported so as to supply the people with an extra amount over and above that which is now being allowed?

The answer is in the affirmative. Every effort is being made by the Royal Commission on the Sugar Supply to obtain larger imports of sugar. But as these depend upon the availability of shipping tonnage for this purpose, and can only be shipped from distant sources of supply, it is feared that no substantial increase can be looked for in the immediate future.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the firms which are manufacturing articles of food which approximate to the manufacture of jam will have an increased supply of sugar?

I am afraid I cannot answer that question, but I will convey it to my right hon. Friend.

Scottish Cattle

asked the Food Controller whether, under the orders of his Department, hundreds of prime Scottish cattle are being killed weekly and sent south into England while the Scottish people are being fed on bad beef, mostly cows of the worst description, and whether the butchers' trade in Glasgow threatens to strike on this account?

London has always been supplied with a considerable amount of meat from Scotland. The amount imported recently is actually less than the amount imported in normal times or at this time last year.

There is no justification for the statement that the Scottish people are being fed on bad beef. The meat supplied in Scotland is of the same quality as is usually forthcoming at this season. As to the last part of the question, the Food Controller has no information.

Questions

Wine (Prices)

asked the Food Controller whether his attention has been drawn to the prices being charged for bottles of wine; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?

The answer is in the affirmative. It has not hitherto been considered advisable to fix maximum prices for wine, in view of the difficulty of standardisation and the enforcement of any objective test, but the question is now under review.

Is this a new departure, seeing that early in the history of the Food Ministry wine was not considered a food at all, and was left entirely alone?

War Workers (Employment)

asked the Minister of Munitions how many men and women are now under notice to leave their employment at the various shipyards, munition factories, and controlled firms; whether any efforts are being made to find them work elsewhere; and if the Government are considering the advisability of getting the men and women to work until after Christmas with the full rate of pay?

No precise information can be given in reply to the first part of my hon. Friend's question. Every effort is being made to ensure that early notification is given to the Employment Exchanges both of impending discharges and of openings for employment. The Government are also removing, wherever possible, the restrictions on the use of materials and on manufacture, with a view to promoting the revival of the normal industry of the country. In reply to the last part of the question, I may say that my right hon. Friend has issued instructions that, except in extreme cases, contracts are not to be cancelled abruptly, and that full consideration is to be given to the position of the workpeople involved. In many forms of munition work, however, such as the filling of various kinds of ammunition, the manufacture of explosives, and the early processes in the manufacture of shells and small arms ammunition, I understand it would be quite impossible to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion that work should continue until after Christmas.

Has the Department considered the advisability of working either shorter hours or for five days per week, so as to give employment to the people likely to be discharged?

Is it not proposed in the larger factories where very large numbers are employed to give those employed some work where they now are?

Yes, where it is possible to do so. It may require alteration and new plant before it is possible to do so, but every effort will be made.

Mine-Sweepers

Admiralty Tribute

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he is aware that the Humber mine-sweepers accounted for 3,000 enemy mines during the War; if he is aware that the Humber authorities have supplied 800 trawlers and 10,000 men to the mine-sweeping services; and if the Government intend to give any recognition to the men working on the trawlers?

I am glad my hon. Friend has put this question. His description of the contribution of the fishing folk of the Humber to the safety of the realm during the War does not overstate the fact. And the House and the country will be fully prepared to hear that the other coast bases have a record of devoted and gallant service of an equally splendid character. That they have made very heavy sacrifices in the discharge of their extremely arduous and dangerous task is evidenced by the fact that over a thousand officers and men have lost their lives on mine-fields while mine-sweeping. My hon. and gallant Friend heard, as we all did, with deep satisfaction the gracious words in which His Majesty the King expressed appreciation of the mine-sweepers on Tuesday. Those words found an echo in the hearts of all of us. It will be the duty and privilege of the Admiralty to consider in due course the appropriate form in which to recognise the invaluable services of the minesweepers.

Questions

Afforestation

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have any intention of promoting a scheme for State tree-planting as proposed by the Afforestation Royal Commission some years back; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?

The Government have given general approval to the Report of the Reconstruction Committee on Afforestation, which is later in date than the Report of the Royal Commission to which the hon. Member refers, and have set up an interim authority for the purpose of initiating schemes of afforestation.

Is it to be a central interim authority or will the nationalities be treated separately?

I do not think my hon. Friend need ask that question, as I heard him discussing it at some length the other night.

In view of the high price of timber, which is being bought at an increase of 300 per cent., is it proposed to impose any obligation on the proprietors to plant trees?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will understand that I cannot answer that without notice and an examination of the question.

As I understand the Government is going to adopt the recommendation of the Reconstruction Subcommittee as to afforestation, and as many questions affecting the welfare and interests of working men are concerned, will there be any labour representation on the Committee?

I do not remember the constitution of the Committee, and I cannot say offhand.

Will the right hon. Gentleman impose any obligations on German supplies of timber, of which they must have a large quantity?

Subjects which are matters for the Peace Conference cannot be answered now, and I am afraid I must give the same answer to this question.

Prisoners of War in Germany

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the recent communication by wireless from the German Government advising British prisoners of war to remain at work; whether his attention has been called to Mr. Justice Younger's Committee's Report upon the labour conditions in the coal and salt mines in Germany, and in view of this, whether he can say what steps are being taken to reach and provide transport and the necessary food and clothing for British prisoners of war in remote camps in the interior of Germany, and also particularly those employed in the coal and salt mines?

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been drawn to Mr. Justice Younger's Report on British prisoners of war in German coal and salt mines and of the manner in which prisoners of war have been treated; and whether any efforts are being made to have these men sent home at once?

The first part of the question of my hon. Friend (Mr. Peto) is really covered by the answer of the Leader of the House yesterday. The very serious attention of His Majesty's Government has been given to the matter referred to in Mr. Justice Younger's Report, and the House will remember the terms of the ultimatum addressed to the German Government on the subject before the Armistice was proposed. His Majesty's Government intend, by every means in their power, to procure the early release and repatriation of all British prisoners of war, and to secure that no British prisoner, pending release, should be employed in a mine against his will.

Has the hon. Gentleman considered the advisability of demanding from the German Government transit facilities for an Inter-Allied Mission under the Red Cross, with powers to visit all these places immediately, with the necessary supplies, and demand the evacuation of our prisoners on the spot and their immediate transport to their own country?

If Germany does not comply with the request of the Government, will they consider that this is a breach of the conditions of the Armistice?

I do not think my hon. Friend was here yesterday. I think, if he will read the answer given by the Leader of the House on that subject, it will be found quite satisfactory. As regards the other question, instructions have been given to General Headquarters in France to do everything possible in the sense my hon. Friend suggests.

Will the hon. Gentleman say what is happening to prisoners in Switzerland?

"As soon as possible" means, as soon as the French authorities can provide transit.

Will my hon. Friend have the suggestion I have made transmitted to Spa at the earliest possible moment?

No, I am afraid they have not all been handed over yet. Exactly how many I could not say. Some of them have arrived at Otranto.

Will the hon. Gentleman not make an announcement in the Press as to the numbers handed over, as there is a great deal of anxiety about the prisoners in Turkish hands?

I understand that has already been arranged for by the authorities at the War Office from day to day. It is almost impossible to say at any one minute how many have passed through enemy hands; they come by all sorts of routes and means.

I had hoped to ask a supplementary question, but someone else has been before me, with regard to the treatment of our prisoners incarcerated in Germany. I should like now to ask if it is not considered highly desirable, in view of what our prisoners have to spend to keep alive, that the War Office should at once appoint an official to go abroad directly, inspect all these prison camps, and see what has become of the prisoners that were there?

Soldiers' Leave (Home Stations)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War whether it is a fact that officers, warrant officers, non-commissioned officers and men at home stations outside London are not allowed to proceed to London when off duty; whether he will state the reason for placing the London area out of bounds; whether he will say if it is a temporary measure; and, if so, how long it is proposed to keep it in force?

This was a temporary measure, and the embargo was removed on the 18th.

General Election

Absent Voters

I would like to ask a point of Order with regard to a Private Notice question. I gave notice to the Postmaster General with regard to the very important matter of the apparent interception of a large number of letters sent to absent voters by post. Since handing the question to you, Mr. Speaker, I have received a note from the Postmaster-General saying he is unable to be in the House this afternoon. Am I at liberty to ask, notwithstanding that, as it is a matter of vital importance?

Then I will ask the question, namely, whether he is aware that 7,000 letters sent by the Liberal candidate for North Paddington to the naval and military voters qualified to vote in that constituency were posted at Lanhill Road Post Office on 8th November, sealed, stamped, and properly directed to the addresses used by the mothers and wives of the voters; whether over 1,000 of these letters were returned on 20th November, stamped with the words "Undeliverable as addressed"; what is the reason why these letters were undeliverable; whether the letters were opened in the post; whether they have been submitted to the Censor, and whether the rest of the letters so posted are being delivered to soldiers and sailors for whom they were intended?

I made a mistake. I have another reply to the right hon. Gentleman dealing with the same subject, but not that particular point.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for War if he can now say whether the record offices have supplied the registration officers with the full list of addresses of Absent voters?

Yes, Sir; I am informed that the lists have now all been dispatched. My right hon. Friend, who raised this question yesterday, must, I think, have forgotten that the Proclamation does not take place until the 25th November, and that the only promise made, so far as I know, is that the information would be available within forty-eight hours of the Proclamation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman try to reconcile the contradiction of terms between the Local Government Board's Circular and the Post Office Circular? The Post Office Circular says that at the latest within two days of the Proclamation those communications must be addressed, whilst the Local Government Board Order or Regulation, practically speaking, gives within seven days of the election. It is going to cause confusion, and that means that many soldiers will not have a vote at all.

So far as I am aware, the only promise made is that the list is to be available for candidates within forty-eight hours from the date of the Proclamation, 25th November.

Will the information be available for candidates? Will the supplementary list be published, or in what way will it be made available?

How long does the right hon. Gentleman imagine this supplemental list is going to take to print? How, with the present scarcity of labour, are returning officers going to hand over two lists of 8,000 persons to the various candidates?

I can only repeat what I have said, that all the lists have been dispatched, and we are now prepared to issue supplemental lists up to 29th November.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consult the Post Office with a view to getting the Post Office to have addresses and other matter in connection with the Election sent out at the earliest possible moment to the soldiers at the front?

Is it not the fact that the Post Office will not guarantee to deliver any of the addresses to the soldiers or sailors unless they are posted before next Wednesday?

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain, if the corrected lists are not yet delivered to the registration or returning officers, how it is possible to make use of the corrected list in time to comply with the regulations of the Post Office?

All I know is that a Committee of the different Departments concerned has gone into this matter, and it is now in the hands of the Local Government Board, and I think that my right hon. Friend—

Questions

President Wilson

asked the Prime Minister whether President Wilson is going to attend the Peace Conference; whether he will visit this country; and whether he will be offered the hospitality of the nation?

As regards the first part of the question, I must refer the hon. Member to the President's own statements on the subject. As regards the latter parts, I need not say that if President Wilson finds it possible to visit this country, as we greatly hope he may, he will be assured of a most cordial welcome and every hospitality will be offered to him.

Orders of the Day

Ministry of Labour (Requisitioning of Premises) Bill

Lords Amendment to be considered forthwith.—[ Mr. G. H. Roberts. ]

Lords Amendment considered accordingly, and agreed to.

Termination of the Present War (Definition) Bill

Lords Amendment to be considered forthwith.—[ Dr. Addison. ]

Lords Amendment considered accordingly.

CLAUSE 1.—(Power to Determine Date of Termination of the Present War.)

(1) His Majesty in Council may declare what date is to be treated as the date of the termination of the present War, and the present War shall be treated as having continued to, and as having ended on that date for the purposes of any provision in any Act of Parliament, Order in Council, or Proclamation, and, except where the context otherwise requires, of any provision in any contract, deed, or other instrument referring, expressely or impliedly, and in whatever form of words, to the present War or the present hostilities:

Provided that in the case of any such Act, conferring powers on any Government Department, or any officer of any Government Department, exercisable during the continuance of the present War, if it appears to His Majesty that it is expedient that the powers shall cease before the date so fixed as aforesaid, His Majesty in Council may fix some earlier date for the termination of those powers.

(2) The date so declared shall be fixed with regard to, and shall not be later than, the date of the exchange or deposit of ratifications of the treaty or treaties of peace:

Provided that, notwithstanding anything in this provision, the date declared as aforesaid shall be conclusive for all purposes of this Act.

(3) His Majesty in Council may also similarly declare what date is to be treated as the date of the termination of war between His Majesty and any particular State.

Lords Amendment:

In Sub-section (2), leave out the words "fixed with regard to, and shall not be later than," and insert instead thereof the words "as nearly as may be."

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

How is it that these Amendments are not available in the Vote Office? I would express the hope that the Government will explain what they are. This House has waited for the Lords Amendments, and I think we ought to have the opportunity of seeing them. Their consideration ought not to be made a mere empty form. We have had no opportunity of learning what they are.

Yes, I will explain. The Amendment proposed in this Bill is to make it read better. At present it reads—

"(2) The date so declared shall be fixed with regard to, and shall not be later than, the date of the exchange,"

and so on, and it is proposed by the Lords to make it read,

"The date so declared shall be as near as may be the date of the exchange or deposit of ratifications, etc."

It means substantially the same thing.

It does not seem to me to mean quite the same thing, because it enables the Proclamation of a fixed date later than the ratification. It gives additional power, therefore, to Government Departments to extend their activities over and above the time that was fixed by this House, and fixed by the Government in the draft of the Bill. It gives, further, wide powers which were not contemplated when the Bill was introduced into this House. We ought to have some explanation as to why it is necessary to take this further extension of power.

Is there not one of the Law Officers of the Crown here who can explain this? Surely, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds says, this is not a mere matter of form but a matter of vital substance! I do think we ought to have some legal advice in a matter of this importance.

The statement I made is quite correct. The words of the Clause were very indefinite in their meaning, and therefore the words "as nearly as may be" were preferred in view of the geographical, telegraphic, and other difficulties that might be encountered. On the whole, I think the Amendment to omit the words proposed and to insert those I have mentioned is an improvement. Hon. Members may be assured that in accepting this Amendment we have no desire whatever to depart from the spirit and intention of the Bill itself.

What we want to know is why the words "not later than" should be left out? They seem to me to be the most important phrase of the whole question. It seems to me to be most desirable that we should fix a definite date beyond which these things should not run. I hope that at all events this House will not lightly give up the words "not later than," but will insist that these words are retained.

I think a distinct point of substance has been raised by my hon. Friend opposite. The words in the Clause are as they left this House. It is true that the earlier words were indefinite, but the later phrase "not later than" is perfectly clear and definite. I think, in all the circumstances, that it is not advisable that this House should leave it to a Government Department to continue the operation of this enactment a day longer than the recommendation of this House. If it is to be "as nearly as may be" I have some doubt as to how that can be interpreted. We have no legal assistance here to guide the House as to the exact meaning of these words. I think in all the circumstances as an alteration of this importance is being made that the House should receive some skilled legal opinion as to the exact change which the other House has imported into this Bill.

This a matter of extreme importance, because the House of Commons was very clear in expressing its opinion that this measure should not be extended in point of time beyond the period originally set up, and they did not

desire that that power should be handed over to the Ministry of Munitions. Although the powers of the Ministry of Munitions were being altered to enable them to turn from war work to a peace footing, yet there was to be no extension of time given to the Ministry of Munitions on this account. The alteration made by the other House gives an extension to which the House of Commons was very averse. Therefore, I think the House should not be overriden by the other House by giving this measure an extended time beyond the ratification of peace. The country desires that the powers of the Ministry should come to an end as soon as possible, and the commercial world and the mercantile world—

I think my hon. Friend has got hold of the wrong Bill.

My hon. Friend is mistaken, and I was only using that as an illustration. The point is the same, that the powers should not be extended by this Amendment beyond the ratification of peace. The Amendment of the House of Lords has the effect of extending the time by omitting the words "not later than," and the view of the House, which has already been accepted by hon. Members, should be put into the measure.

Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The House divided: Ayes, 85; Noes, 9.

Division No. 95.]

AYES.

[3.23 p.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher

Fester, Philip Staveley

Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)

Anderson, William C.

Ganzoni, Francis J. C.

Palmer, Godfrey Mark

Anstruther-Gray, Lt.-Col. Wm.

Gibbs, Col. George Abraham

Parker, James (Halifax)

Archer-Shee, Lt.-Col. Martin

Gilbert, James Daniel

Peto, Basil Edward

Baldwin, Stanley

Gilmour, Lt.-Col. John

Pryce-Jones, Col. Sir E.

Barrie, C. C

Greig, Colonel James William

Rees, G. C. (Carnarvon, Arfon)

Beach, William F. H.

Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)

Rees, Sir J. D.

Beale, Sir William Phipson

Hambro, Angus Valdemar

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Benn, Sir Arthur S. (Plymouth)

Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence (Ashford)

Roberts, Rt. Hon. Gee. H. (Norwich)

Bigland, Alfred

Henderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Durham)

Samuels, Arthur W.

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Hibbert, Sir Henry

Sanders, Col. Robert Arthur

Boscawen, Sir Arthur Griffith-

Hodge, Rt. Hon. John

Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Boyton, Sir James

Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)

Shortt, Edward

Bridgeman, William Clive

Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, E.)

Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, W.)

Burn, Col. C. R. (Torquay)

Kellaway, Frederick George

Turton, Edmund Russborough

Carr-Gomm, H. W.

Kenyon, Barnet

Wardle, George J.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Beetle)

White, Col. G. D. (Lancs., Southport)

Coats, Sir Stuart (Wimbledon)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Whiteley, Sir H. J. (Droltwich)

Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)

Lowe, Sir F. W.

Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.

Cowan, Sir William Henry

Macmaster, Donald

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir Rhys (Banbury)

Crooks, Rt. Hon. William

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James Ian

Wills, Major Sir Gilbert

Dalziel, Davison (Brixton)

Maden, Sir John Henry

Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)

Davies, Timothy (Louth)

Magnus, Sir Philip

Yate, Col. Charles Edward

Denniss, Edmund R. Bartley

Mason, Robert (Wansbeck)

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. H.

Moore, Maj.-Gen. Sir J. N. (Hanover Sq.)

Edge, Capt. William

Morison, Hector (Hackney, South)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Pratt.

Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.

Merton, Sir Alpheus Cleophas

Fleming, Sir John (Aberdeen, S.)

NOES.

Ainsworth, Sir John Stirling

Lambert, Richard (Cricklade)

Watt, Henry A.

Chancellor, Henry George

Lynch, Arthur Alfred

Cotton, H. E. A.

Nuttall, Harry

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. E. Harvey and Mr. King.

Lamb, Sir Ernest Henry

Pringle, William M. R.

A Royal Commission has been ordered for 4 o'clock, and I propose therefore to leave the Chair until then.

Sitting suspended at twenty-nine minutes before Four o'clock.

Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair at Four o'clock.

Royal Assent

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went, and having returned—

I have to inform the House that the House has been to the House of Peers, where a Commission under the Great Seal was read authorising the Royal Assent to:

Prorogation

His Majesty's Most Gracious Speech

I have further to acquaint the House that the Lord High Chancellor, being one of the High Commissioners, delivered His Majesty's Most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament in pursuance of His Majesty's Command, as followeth:

My Lords and Gentlemen,

The occasion on which I address you marks the close of a period which will be for ever memorable in the history of our country.

The War, upon which all the energies of My Peoples throughout My Dominions have for more than four years been concentrated, has at length been brought to a triumphant issue. The conclusion of an Armistice with the last of the Powers that have been arrayed against us gives promise at no distant date of an honourable and enduring peace. I have already sought an opportunity of expressing publicly to My Peoples and to My Allies the sentiments of heartfelt admiration and gratitude with which I regard the supreme and self-sacrificing devotion that has led to this glorious result. Amidst our rejoicing let us not forget to render thanks to Almighty God for the success with which it has pleased Him to crown our arms.

Gentlemen of the House of Commons,

I thank you for the unfailing patriotism with which you have made provision for the requirements of the War.

My Lords and Gentlemen,

The exertions which have carried us to victory in the field must in no wise be abated or slackened until the ravages of war have been repaired and the fabric of our national prosperity has been restored. Through the extension of the suffrage, which this Parliament has carried into effect, all classes of My People will have an opportunity of inspiring and guiding this beneficent undertaking. I trust that the spirit of unity which has enabled us to surmount the perils of war will not be wanting in the no less arduous task of establishing on the sure foundation of ordered liberty the common welfare of My People. In bidding you farewell, I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your labours.

Then a Commission for Proroguing the Parliament was read in the House of Lords.

After which the Lord Chancellor said:

MY LORDS AND GENTLEMEN,—By virtue of His Majesty's Commission under the Great Seal to us and other Lords directed and now read we do in His Majesty's name and in obedience to his commands Prorogue this Parliament to Friday, the thirteenth day of December, one thousand nine hundred and eighteen, to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Friday, the thirteenth day of December, one thousand nine hundred and eighteen.

End of the Eighth Session ( opened Tuesday, 12 th February, 1918) of the Thirtieth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the ninth year of the reign of His Majesty King George the Fifth.