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Commons Chamber

Volume 121: debated on Tuesday 18 November 1919

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House Of Commons

Tuesday, 18th November, 1919.

The House met at a quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Private Business

Scottish Amicable Life Assurance Society's Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords] (by Order),

Read the third time, and passed, without amendment.

Oral Answers To Questions

Russia

Eastern Galicia (Occupation)

1.

asked the Under-Secrtary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Supreme Council have consented to the permanent occupation of Eastern Galicia by the Poles and its annexation to Poland; if so, whether this is the result of the recent visit of M. Paderewski to the British Prime Minister; whether he is aware that the population of Eastern Galicia is predominantly Ukrainian; and whether a plebiscite is to be taken, as in the case of the former enemy territory of Upper Silesia, before this apparent negation of the right of self-determination is permitted?

In answer to the first part of the hon. and gallant Member's question, I regret that I am not at liberty at present to divulge the proceedings of the Peace Conference in this matter. The second and fourth parts of the question do not, therefore, arise. As regards the third, His Majesty's Government are fully aware of the difficulties involved in determining the claims put forward by the various nationalities in Eastern Galicia.

Attacks On Letts

2.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether either General Denikin or Admiral Koltchak have ordered Colonel Bermondt to desist from his attacks on the Letts, in view of the fact that British seamen have been killed by Colonel Bermondt's artillery fire while defending Riga?

His Majesty's Government have no knowledge of any orders having been issued to Colonel Bermondt either by Admiral Koltchak or General Denikin. As, however, General Yudenitch, who, together with General Denikin, has recognised Admiral Koltchak as Supreme Ruler, has denounced Colonel Bermondt as a traitor, it would appear unnecessary for either Admiral Koltchak or General Denikin to take any action in the matter.

Soviet Government

3.

asked whether war -has yet been declared between His Majesty and the Soviet Government of Russia; and, if not, what is the position in international law of soldiers of the Soviet Army taken prisoners by British forces?

War has not been declared between His Majesty's Government and the Soviet Government, but soldiers of the Soviet Army taken prisoners-by the British forces are, in fact, treated in the same way as prisoners of war would be treated.

Esthonia (German Troops)

4.

asked what steps are now being taken to compel the German Government to recall the German troops with Colonel Bermondt and General von Eberhardt?

The main measures which have been taken up to date to bring pressure to bear on the German Government to withdraw the German troops from the Baltic have been the suspension of negotiations which were proceeding between the Supreme Economic Council and the German Government for the supply to Germany of food, raw materials, and financial assistance, and an embargo on the movements of German ships in the Baltic, Meanwhile an Inter-Allied Military Mission under General Niessel, which was appointed to supervise the evacuation of German troops, has already passed through Berlin on its way to the Baltic States.

British Munitions

16.

asked whether, seeing that we are supplying General Denikin with munitions free of any stipulation as to the particular enemy against whom he would use them, General Denikin would be entitled to use British munitions against Esthonia and the other new Baltic States, whose claim to independence he has refused to recognise and who are now receiving protection from British warships?

The answer is in the negative. A consultation beforehand would have rendered the putting down of the question unnecessary.

British Troops At Memel And Dantzig

17.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether British troops are to be sent to Memel and Dantzig, respectively; if so, for what purpose; and whether young soldiers under the age of twenty and nine teen years, respectively, will accompany these troops?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, the Supreme Council decided to send Allied troops to Dantzig, which under the Treaty of Peace becomes a free city, to support the authority of the Temporary Administrator (Sir Reginald Tower) pending the organisation of local forces.

It is essential to guard the docks against damage and to preserve the peace in the area of the new free city. It is also necessary to provide troops to enable the Commission for the delimitation of the frontier of the new free city to carry out its duties.

The same general reasons apply as regards the Memel district. This territory is to be handed over by Germany to the principal Allied and Associated Powers, who will decide as to its ultimate disposal. The proximity of this Memel district to the Baltic States affords an additional reason for its military occupation by Allied troops. The answer to the third part is in the affirmative.

Was not an assurance given by my right hon. Friend that these young soldiers would not be sent further than the Rhine?

They might be sent further than the Rhine, but what was said was in order to show that they would not be sent to India or the East. We had it in contemplation, though they might go to Northern Europe, to keep them within the temperate zone in the area responsibly controlled by the Rhine Army.

I am not yet convinced whether this will be a charge under the interpretation of the Peace Treaty—against Germany, in the same way as the maintenance of the Army on the Rhine—or whether it will have to be defrayed from some inter-Allied fund.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether in future these young soldiers under nineteen shall not be sent anywhere in Europe except under one of the immediate commands?

That is just what we have been doing. We have not sent any of the young men away from the proper climate in the usual way.

There is, I believe, a good deal of misunderstanding and anxiety on the subject. Cannot the right hon. Gentleman make a public statement as to the proper areas? It would reassure the public.

There is certainly no secret about it. If the hon. Gentleman will put down a question to which I can give a written answer, I will give the locations to which British troops have to go in discharge of their share of the inter-Allied obligations.

If a question is put down I shall be ready to say exactly where British troops are sent for the purpose of fulfilling our obligations.

Baltic Operations (British Fleet)

69.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the total naval losses of all ratings sustained by the British Fleet in the course of its operations in and about the Baltic since the date of the Armistice, stating the casualties for each month of the present year?

With the permission of the House, I will circulate the answer to this question in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The following is the information promised:

Killed.Wounded.Missing.Prisoners of War.
Officers.Men.Officers.Men.Officers.Men.Officers.Men.
1918—
December21155
1919—
May1154
June5371
July212138
August610431236
September710381
October914
239019632236

There were no casualties in November, 1918, nor in January, February, March, April, and November, 1919.

Legion Of Red Finns

28.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the Legion of Red Finns, raised, armed, and equipped by His Majesty's Government, has been sent, or is to be sent, to the territory under the Finnish Government; whether an amnesty has been arranged for these men; and what steps have been taken to see that they are not penalised for the services which they rendered to the Allied cause?

At the urgent request of the Red Finn Legion, negotiations were opened with the Finnish Government some time ago with a view to obtaining for these persons permission to return to their own country. For this purpose the greater part of the Legion were shipped from Murmansk to Reval and from that place sent in batches to Helsingfors, with a view to enabling the individual cases to be gone through. So far the inquiry, at which a British representative has been present throughout, has proceeded satisfactorily, and the great majority have already been received back to their country.

I cannot say there has been a complete universal amnesty arranged. The matter is being discussed with the Finnish Government, and the action of the British Government must be regulated by individual canes. Any questions

as to the negotiations should be addressed to the Foreign Office.

Is not the conduct of the Finnish Government in such oases rather summary?

The British representative is watching the cases of these men, some of whom have been very heavily compromised in the past. Hon. Members may be sure their cases will have better attention through the presence of the British representative than they would get under any other set of circumstances.

Is it not the fact that these; men were raised by us and used by us and therefore we have a very special responsibility for them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] We are English after all—some of us.

These men were fugitives from Finland, having in many cases outraged the laws of the dominant party in Finland. We are endeavouring to get them repatriated and to get the Finnish Government to accept them, except in oases where some definite brutal civil crime attaches to them.

British Consuls And Vice-Consuls

Appointment Of Business Men

5 and 6.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) what steps, if any, have been taken respecting the appointment of practical business men as British Consuls and Vice-Consuls in foreign countries in order to give full effect to the efforts or representatives of British manufacturers and traders for whom passage may be found on British ships proceeding to distant ports; if his Department will, in conjunction with the Board of Trade, make business training and knowledge one of the conditions of such appointments; (2) how many enemy aliens were acting as British Consuls and Vice-Consuls prior to August 1914; how many are still retained in such positions; if any have been appointed since the signing of the Armistice; if it is the intention of the Foreign Office to consult with the Board of Trade before such positions are filled with a view to the selection of practical business men of British nationality; and if it will henceforth be regarded as a primary condition that those selected as Ambassadors, Consuls, etc., shall be able to speak and write the language of the country to which they are accredited?

Before the War there were no Consular officers of enemy nationality in the salaried Consular Service.

In the unsalaried service there were thirty-seven German and thirteen Austro-Hungarians, but on the outbreak of war these appointments ceased automatically, and no ex-enemy alien has been appointed since the signing of the Armistice.

A Committee of Selection on which the Board of Trade is represented, and which also comprises representatives of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce and of the Federation of British Industries, has been examining the qualifications of candidates for the salaried Consular Service. There is now a long waiting list of candidates who have passed the scrutiny of the Committee, but for whom posts are not at present available. Especial regard has been paid to the commercial and business experience of candidates.

The appropriate language qualifications are regarded as of primary importance in making individual appointments in the Consular and other Foreign Services.

Will the hon. Baronet undertake that in the Consular Service in the future there will be no appointments unless those appointed are of British nationality?

I can undertake that so far as the salaried Consular Service is concerned but I cannot undertake it in regard to the unsalaried Consular Service because in these cases there are no British residents.

If it is essential to have a British Consul why do we not send one? Why not have a British representative of our interests?

There are some six hundred of these unsalaried Consuls and it is not possible, having regard to the need of economy to appoint salaried Consuls in these six hundred cases.

Is the hon. Baronet not aware that these unsalaried Consuls are able to obtain such information as may be of vital value to the country in case of trouble, and will he see whether it is not possible to reconsider the matter with a view of having these positions filled by people of British nationality?

Demobilisation

Officers' Leave And Allowances

7.

asked what are the conditions under which officers brought home from abroad are demobilised in this country; whether leave and allowances are granted to them in the same way as to the men; and, if not, will he alter the Regulations so as to prevent officers on arrival at home being turned adrift at a day's notice without any resources to live upon?

Temporary officers brought home for demobilisation proceed on arriving in this country to their dispersal station, and are then demobilised with effect from the date of dispersal. My hon. and gallant Friend appears to have overlooked the not unsubstantial gratuities drawn by these officers on demobilisation under the Pay Warrant.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it takes six months for a man to get his gratuity, and many of these men have nothing to live upon until they get this money?

There may be exceptional cases, but my hon. and gallant Friend will give a totally misleading impression if he leads the House to believe that it takes six months to get a gratuity.

Hants Regiment (1914 Men)

8.

asked when the 1/9;th Hants Regiment will leave Vladivostok; is he aware that 1914 men are in that regiment; and can he state the reason why these men are not being got home?

Young Soldiers (Service)

20.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Private W. Parfitt, No. 73326, 2nd Battalion, Worcestershire Regiment, Portobello Barracks, Dublin, joined the Army some months ago, and that an application for his release was made by his father on the 26th July, 1919, on the grounds that his son would not reach the age of eighteen years until the 25th November, 1919; whether ho is aware that at the request of the adjutant of the regiment a birth certificate was furnished proving Private Parfitt's age; and will he state the reason why Private Parfitt is still retained?

This application has been carefully considered, but the circumstances of the case do not justify the discharge of this soldier being authorised. I would explain that the discharge of a soldier over seventeen years of age who mis-states his age on enlistment is granted as a concession only, under certain conditions which do not appertain in this case.

21.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Private H. W. Davis, No. 56028, 52nd Battalion, Royal Warwickshire Regiment, British Army of the Rhine, who is only just nineteen years of age, Grade 2, is being sent with his battalion to South Russia; whether this is contrary to the Government's promise that no men under twenty years of age should be sent further than the Rhine; and will he at once take steps to prevent Private Davis being sent to South Russia?

The battalion in which this soldier is serving forms part of the Independent Division of the Army of the Rhine, which is to be used in connection with plebiscite duty in Germany. It is not going to South Russia. As regards the second part of the question, I would refer my bon. Friend to the answer on Tuesday last to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for Bolton to the effect that no such promise was made.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say where this boy is if he has not been sent to South Russia?

I believe he is in Northern Germany, but I will find out for the hon. Member. The question on the Paper only asks as to South Russia.

Labour Battalions (Skilled Men)

23.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will explain wiry highly-skilled technical men are retained in labour battalions in this country when pay and domestic allowances cost the tax payer £6 a week and the taxpayer is at the same time paying doles to unskilled men who are out of work?

There is only one labour battalion in this country, and this is being disbanded. The strength is 299 other ranks, all of whom are awaiting discharge.

Troops From India

24.

asked the Secretary of State for War if specially expeditious arrangements have been made for the discharge of the men arriving from India, in view of the cold of the present season in contrast to the climate in which they have been serving for years; and whether special care is taken for their warmth and comfort on their voyage home and during the time it is necessary to detain them in camps?

Troops coming home from India for demobilisation are dispatched by the All-Sea route. Arrangements are made for home pattern clothing to be issued, and the khaki drill to be withdrawn either before embarkation or during the voyage. On arrival at the Port of disembarkation in the United Kingdom they are given a good meal on landing, and also a ration for consumption in the train, the size of the ration depending on the length of the journey to be performed. They are sent direct to the Dispersal Station nearest their homes, where they are dispersed with the least possible delay. In the majority of cases they leave the Dispersal Station on the day they arrive, but arrangements have been made at all stations to provide comfortable sleeping accommodation and hot meals for those who may be detained over night.

Building Trade Workers

32.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether commanding officers have been instructed that no men in the Royal Engineers and Army Service Corps are to be demobilised at present; if so, whether many of these men are skilled in the various trades for which many men are required to aid the building and repairing of houses; and whether he will have the instruction cancelled?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The latter parts, therefore, do not arise.

Naval And Military Pensions And Grants

Allowances During Imprisonment

10.

asked what is the position of the wife or other dependants of a soldier in relation to allowances during the period he is undergoing imprisonment imposed upon him as a result of having been court-martialled for some military offence?

The issue of separation allowance is continued, during any period of imprisonment unless and until the soldier is discharged from his Army engagement.

Civil Liabilities Grants

35.

asked the Minister of Pensions whether the delay in respect of applications for grants recommended by the Bury War Pensions Committee can be obviated to a very large extent; whether applicants for grants are suffering great inconvenience and hardship and, in some cases, entire loss of the business which they proposed to embark upon; whether members of the local committee who voluntarily give much of their time to this work feel that their time is entirely wasted; and is he aware that numerous letters have been directed to the chief of the Department concerned and also one to the Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions, and that such letters have not even been acknowledged?

I have been asked to reply to this question. As has already been stated in reply to other hon. Members, the Department is going thoroughly into the position with regard to delays in respect to Civil Liabilities Grants, and hopes to effect an improvement in the near future Arrangements are being made for an officer of the Department to visit Bury during the present week in order to go into the special points raised by the local committee on the spot.

Military Service (Special Decoration)

11.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can now state the decision of the Government as to the issue of a special decoration to those who have been mentioned in dispatches during the present War?

It is in contemplation to distinguish those who have been mentioned in dispatches in the War by giving them permission to wear a small oak leaf on the ribbon of the Victory medal. That is under consideration, but I am not at this moment able to give a final answer.

What will be done fur those who have had the good luck to be mentioned twice in dispatches?

That is one of those arguments which causes us to hesitate in taking the decision to which I have referred.

Can the right hon. Gentleman before long pronounce a definite conclusion?

There are some 70,000 or 80,000 persons concerned, and it would be very desirable to come to a decision quickly.

If the right hon. Gentleman does not see his way clear to grant the oak leaf will the War Office cause a letter of appreciation to be sent which those men could keep?

Titles And Designations Committee

12.

asked what staff is employed for the work of the titles and Designations Committee; what is the rent of the premises in Whitehall Court used for this purpose, and what is the number of rooms.; how long this Committee has been in existence; and how long it is expected to be required?

The staff employed on the work of the titles and Designations Committee numbers two (an officer as secretary and an ex-soldier clerk). The rent of the six-roomed flat in Whitehall Court used for this purpose is paid by the Office of Works and is, I understand, £350 a year. The Committee, however, was only given, the use of these premises till other accommodation became available, and arrangements have been made for its early removal, when the flat will be surrendered to the Office of Works. The Committee was appointed in October and has recently started work, but I cannot at present say how long its work will last.

Dress And Uniform Committee

13.

asked how long the Dress and Uniform Committee has existed; if it has finished its deliberations, and what was the cost of staff and printing in connection with the work?

This Committee held its first meeting on 2nd May, and reported early in September last. The staff consisted of an officer as secretary and an ex-soldier clerk, who were temporarily detailed for the work. The cost of printing the Report of the Committee was £20 6s.

Is it not a fact that these premises have not been used for a long time, and that we are paying £300 a year for the accommodation of two people?

That is not so in the case of the Committee mentioned. The Dress and Uniform Committee had accommodation for a great deal more than two people. It is so in the case of the Committee to which my hon. Friend's previous questions referred, but that was purely a temporary occupation.

Barrack Accommodation, Durham

14.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he intends to complete the scheme started before the War for building barracks at Durham and transferring there the depot of the Durham Light Infantry?

The scheme referred to will be proceeded with when it is possible to make funds available for the purpose. The financial position will not admit of this at present.

War Staff Reduction, Nottingham

15.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a circular, dated 3rd November, has been issued by the regimental paymaster at Nottingham to temporary employés, paragraph (b) of which says that, in the process of reducing war staff, it may be necessary in the interests of the public service to discharge them while undisabled employés are retained; and whether he is prepared to give an undertaking that discharged men shall not be discharged prior to all others who have not served?

Yes, Sir; the circular was issued in accordance with general instructions on the subject of the substitution of disabled ex-Service men for other employés in Government Departments. In the reduction of the staff of Army Pay Offices discharged men are given the preference of retention provided that the efficiency of the office is maintained. It is essential that there shall be no failure in the proper payment of soldiers on demobilisation.

May we take it that the only question involved is the efficiency of the officers?

Chelsea Pensioners

18.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether a decision has been come to with reference to the hardship that is now caused to in-pensioners of the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, by the loss of their out-pension when they are admitted?

I am not sure whether it is clear to my hon. and gallant Friend that no present in-pensioner of Chelsea would in any event be affected by the new scale of Army pensions, since its application is confined to those who have actually given military service during the War. There is thus no hardship involved. Under the Soldiers' Pensions Act of 1828, admission to in-pension abrogates all claim to either service or disability pension.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman in answer to a question three or four months' ago promise an inquiry into this matter? Has that inquiry been held, and, if so, with what result?

Territorial Forces

East Lancashire County Association

19.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the East Lancashire County Association has appointed a civilian to be secretary, although ex-officers with distinguished war service were on the final list dealt with by the selection committee; and can he take any steps in the matter?

The nomination of a secretary in such cases rests with the county association. In this case, on the resignation of their secretary, the East Lancashire Association decided to nominate a civilian who had previously held the post of assistant-secretary. The recommendation is now under consideration.

Pre-War Accumulated Funds

29.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the accumulated funds in the hands of Territorial County Associations at let August, 1914, are still intact; and whether they will be used to relieve the Exchequer in reforming the Territorial Force?

The funds which existed on 1st August, 1914, have been drawn upon largely during the War. In so far as they represented savings made by economical administration on the part of the several associations, it is intended to restore them.

Opera Glasses (Lord Roberts' Appeal)

22.

asked the Secretary of State for War what decision has been arrived at regarding the presentation of a pair of opera glasses to those ladies and gentlemen who answered the appeal of the late Lord Roberts but whose glasses have not been returned as requested?

This question was asked four or five months ago and an answer was then promised.

I know. But the question is not quite so simple to answer as would appear on the surface. Many considerations have to be taken into account.

Is it not the fact that the ladies and gentlemen who provided these glasses had no expectation of seeing them again?

Military Hospitals, South Wales

25.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended to establish and maintain a military hospital in South Wales at Neath or elsewhere; and whether, before a decision is arrived at, consideration will be given to the fact that there is a school of medicine already existing at Cardiff which would be of great value to such hospital if situated in its neighbourhood?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The Ministry of Pensions is opening a hospital at Neath almost immediately for the reception of disabled ex-Service men. Every effort has been made to establish a hospital in or near Cardiff, but it is found that no suitable accommodation is available.

Is it the intention of the authorities to disband the hospital erected at Chepstow?

I do not think so. But I am not prepared to answer the supplementary question. If the hon. Member can give me any information I shall be glad to consider it.

Army Sweepstakes, Lille

26.

asked the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Major P. A. Denison has been organising sweepstakes at Lille, one of which has distributed £40,981 in prizes, leaving a balance of £4,019 undistributed; and whether he can issue any instruction so that officers whilst on service should not be associated with the management of sweepstakes or similar undertakings?

I am inquiring into this matter, and will write to my hon. Friend later.

Public Meeting, Lockerbie

38.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that at a public meeting held in Lockerbie on 28th September a Miss Violet Jardine, of Castlemilk, Dumfriesshire, is alleged to have attempted to create a breach of the peace by offering a reward of £10 to any individual or individuals who would drag the speaker from the platform; whether, when that failed, she is alleged to have attempted to induce children to disrupt the meeting by offering them silver; whether the matter has been reported to the chief constable of Dumfriesshire; whether that official has refused to interfere; and what steps he proposes to take to secure an inquiry into the matter?

A complaint of the nature referred to in the first part of the hon. Member's question was made to the police. No evidence in support of it was produced or was obtainable. The answer to the second part of the question is in the negative and the third in the affirmative. I see no reason to doubt that the chief constable took the right course.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that parties, including the individual who was the speaker at that meeting, waited upon the chief constable lo submit evidence, and that the chief constable stated that his answer was final?

My hon. Friend has been misinformed. The complainer did have a meeting with one of the inspectors, and he said he did not hear the statement made himself, but he promised to produce evidence the following day. No such evidence was brought by the complainer, consequently the chief constable had no evidence at all.

If evidence is supplied will the Scottish Office take action if the chief constable refuses to take action against this body?

The Crown Officer is always willing to consider any evidence tendered. There was no evidence tendered in this case

Coasting Traffic

36.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Shipping if he will give details of the amount of tonnage on coast trade round Great Britain during the periods October, 1917, and October, 1918, and also between October, 1918, and October, 1919; and what action he is taking to encourage this modo of transport and thus relieve railway congestion?

The only available statistics relating to coasting traffic are those contained in the monthly trade and navigation accounts, which give the total arrivals and departures coastwise with cargo, including trade between Great Britain and Ireland. For the period October, 1917, to 1918, the total arrivals were 16,684,452 net tons, and for the period October, 1918, to 1919, 19,248,180 net tons. The details of the scheme approved by the Government for the relief of the railways were published by the Board of Trade on 20th August, and I have sent my hon. and gallant Friend a copy of the notice.

Will the Shipping Controller, if ho finds the suggestion is not possible to relieve that, congestion, put the pressure he possesses on those merchants who may send traffic not of an expeditious nature to send it by sea?

My right hon. Friend will take every action which lies in his power to relieve the congestion which already exists. He fully realises the seriousness of the present situation.

Army Horses

30.

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the annual cost of the remount officers and the liability to provide veterinary treatment and replace casualties incidental to the scheme for hiring out to civilians 15,000 Army horses; and whether these horses can be sold subject to registration for Army requirements in order to avoid this expense?

No actual additional cost is at present incurred in respect of the remount officers employed on this scheme, as these officers are otherwise necessarily employed on other duties. The future cost under this head cannot yet be stated. The cost of veterinary treatment is estimated at £60,000 annually. The cost of replacement from casualties as distinct from age cannot be stated separately, but the total cost of replacement is estimated at an average of £150,000 when the scheme is in full working order. My hon. and gallant Friend is no doubt aware that the civilians in question make a payment for the use of the horses. Horses can be registered for use in time of war only. The essential feature of this scheme is that it provides horses for annual training in time of peace.

Is it not a fact that horses were always available for training in time of peace apart from this scheme; and would it not be far better to sell the horses and let the money go to the Treasury?

I am afraid that is not the case at all. I think most people would agree that the matter of getting horses for training in time of peace was a matter of almost insuperable difficulty.

Royal Artillery Riding Establishment, Weedon

31.

asked the Secretary of State for War what is the ration strength in officers and other ranks and horses of the Royal Artillery Biding Establishment at Weedon; why it is necessary to maintain this new establishment in addition to the riding establishment at Woolwich; and whether it is used chiefly for instructional purposes or as a hunting centre?

The ration strength on the 14th instant was twenty-seven officers and 245 other ranks, of whom a number are under instruction. There are 244 horses. The branch at Weedon is required to train officers and non-commissioned officers as instructors in equitation for the Royal Artillery. The branch at Woolwich, which is unsuitable for this purpose, is required to teach the Cadets at the Royal Military Academy to ride. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Considering that we are engaged in making an Army and training an entirely new professional Artillery to replace the conscripted Artillery, we must have some facilities in the matter of training establishments.

Indian Army (Officers' Staff Salary)

33.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office what Regulation in the Indian Army Regulations lays down the rule that au officer of the Indian Army taken prisoner of war is to be deprived of half his Staff salary after the first sixty-one days?

The Indian Army Regulations as printed make no provision for the pay of officers as prisoners of war. The Regulations referred to in my previous answer were specially made at the beginning of the War by agreement between the India Office and the War Office, as was explained in the answer which I quoted in answer to my hon. and gallant Friend's question last week.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make a fresh agreement to give Indian officers better terms?

I have looked at the question closely again, and I cannot see why, in justice, we should give officers of the Indian Army treatment substantially different from the treatment we give the officers in our own Army.

Do not officers of the British Army get full pay whilst prisoners of war; and why should officers of the Indian Army be deprived of their fall pay?

Rear Lights (Cycles)

34.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether lie is now prepared to revoke the Order temporarily reimposed at the time of the recent railway strike requiring rear lights to be carried on cycles?

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport has appointed a Committee to inquire into the whole question, and has represented to me that it is particularly desirable to retain the requirements of the Lights (Vehicles) Order for the present on account of the restrictions in street lighting which have been adopted by the local authorities in many places because of shortage of coal. The Committee have been asked to deal with the matter as one of urgency, and, in these circumstances, I propose to retain the Order for the present.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is on the country roads principally where these lights are essential in the interests of the safety of bicycle riders; and even when coal is not quite so short will he consider the advisability of retaining these lights?

Transport Administration

Canal Traffic

37.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller if he will give the tonnage available for canal traffic in Great Britain, and if and how much such traffic has increased since the Armistice was signed, and by what amount pressure on railways for the carriage of merchandise has been relieved?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY Of TRANSPORT
(Lieut.-Colonel; Sir Rhys Williams)

I have been asked to answer this question. "A" Return, prepared by the Canal Control Committee at the end of August last, shows that at that date there were 7,254 narrow boats and 3,835 wide boats available for service, while 617 of the former and 459 of the latter were out of commission awaiting repairs widen were much in arrears owing to the difficulty of obtaining skilled labour during the War. With an average carrying capacity of 28 tons for the' narrow and 40 tons for the wide boats, the tonnage available at the end of August was 356,512 tons. The total tonnage carried over the canals in Great Britain under the control of the Committee for the ten months preceding the Armistice was 15,875,478 tons, or an average of 1,587,548 tons per month. For the month of November, 1918, 1,408,068 tons of traffic were conveyed. For the ten months succeeding November, 1918, the total tonnage conveyed was 14,529,524 tons, or an average of 1,452,952 tons per month, which represents a decrease at the rate of 135,000 tons per month.

In view of the very serious condition of the railways, what steps does the hon. Gentleman propose to take to increase the shipping on our canals, instead of decreasing it, as the reply suggests?

The Minister of Transport is in almost daily touch with the Canal Controller.

I am not prepared to answer that question. If my hon. Friend will give me notice, I will deal with it.

Light Railways

57.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture how many county councils in England and Wales have submitted proposals for light railways; the mileage and estimated cost of such scheme; and the present position as regards construction?

Proposals for the construction of light railways in agricultural districts have been received from nineteen county councils and agricultural executive committees. The total mileage of the routes suggested is, approximately, 968. No estimates of the cost of these schemes have been made by the Board. Such estimates will be drawn up by the Ministry of Transport in respect of any schemes which the Government propose to adopt. So far as I am aware, no construction work has actually been begun.

Before any of these schemes are finally accepted by whatever Department is finally responsible, will it be necessary for them to show that they can be made self-supporting?

I think that question ought to be addressed to the Minister of Transport. I believe the answer is in the negative. One question would be considered as to what advantage the scheme would confer on the neighbourhood.

London Traffic

62.

asked the Minister of Transport if he would give the House a broad outline of the steps that are being taken to permanently improve the travelling facilities between inner and outer London; and if he will specifically state whether any immediate steps are being taken to relieve) the overcrowding existing on the route from West Ham to the City?

The subject of the improvement of the travelling facilities referred to is one of the chief matters which will engage the attention of the Advisory Committee on London Traffic which has recently been appointed, under the Chairmanship of the hon. Member for Hornsey. The increase of rolling stock which the Metropolitan District Railway Company has on order will, it is hoped, alleviate the congestion on this as on other routes.

Wagons (Great Northern Railway)

63.

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that, not withstanding the present great shortage of railway wagons, the Great Northern Railway Company are insisting on ton-lots and upwards for one destination being loaded into through wagons instead of allowing wagons to be loaded to their full capacity and when necessary dealt with at London sorting stations; and is he aware that the effect of this is that in many cases wagons are, travelling up and down the country only half filled?

I am aware that the Great Northern Railway Company are in some instances sending wagons through to destination stations with less than a maximum load. This is being done to avoid the alternative of sending the consignments to King's Cross for transhipment, which would have the effect of increasing congestion at that station. The existing arrangement results in better traffic working, and on balance is in the public interest.

Are we to understand that the less the wagons carry the less the congestion will be?

Small Holdings Colonies Acts, 1916–18

39.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he can furnish the name and address of one ex-Service man placed by the Board of Agriculture on lands acquired under the Small Holdings Colonies Acts, 1916–18, the rent of whose holding has been fixed and the buildings and other equipment completed; and whether he can state the area of such holding, the rent of the land and buildings, the name of the scheme, and the estate where such holding completely equipped can be inspected?

Yes, Sir; Samuel Gibson is in occupation of holding No. 20 on Castle Huntly estate, Longforgan. The holding extends to 50 acres. The equipped rent is 40s. per acre.

I have answered the question on the Paper. There are, I understand, 100 more settlers who will be settled on the land this month.

Food Supplies

Sugar

40.

asked the Food Controller if he can state the approximate amount of sugar there was in the country for each month since January, 1919; will the amount now in the country warrant a larger ration supply to the people; and, if so, will he grant the same?

The bonded stocks of sugar in the country are shown in the statistics published by His Majesty's Board of Customs and Excise in the monthly issues of trade and navigation of the United Kingdom. I am having the figures for which the hon. Member asks extracted and sent to him. The reply to the second part of this question is in the negative. The third part does not, therefore, arise.

41.

asked the Food Controller if it is possible for the manufacturers of sweets to obtain as much sugar as they require providing they pay to the Food Control Department a profit; of 3d. per lb.; and, if so, will he state the amount of profit made this year?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second part, therefore, does not arise.

Cheese

42.

asked the Food Controller whether he will state the amount of money paid per lb. for cheese to the farmer for home-produced cheese; and how much is the Government losing per lb. on home-produced cheese?

The price paid by my Department to the farmer for home-produced hard cheese is at present 2s. per lb. for first grade; correspondingly lower prices are paid for inferior grades. After allowance is made for the costs of distribution, the loss on this home cheese taken by itself is at the rate of about 10½d. per lb. All the Ministry's purchases of cheese, both home and imported, are, however, pooled financially and sold at a fiat maximum, retail price, the losses on home cheese being met out of the margin of profit on the much larger bulk of imported cheese.

Profiteering

43.

asked the Food Controller if he is aware of the continued discontent among the poor at the continuing profiteering which is going on; is he aware of the unrest caused by this practice; and will he take immediate steps to deal more drastically with the matter?

I have been asked to reply. I am aware that the high cost of living causes discontent, but it is very necessary to remember that high prices and profiteering are by no means the same thing. Many prices are at present very high, even with profits most strictly limited. I would, however, remind the hon. Member that the Profiteering Act has now been applied to all the principal necessaries of life other than controlled articles, and that Central Appeal and local committees have been set up to hear and determine cases of alleged profiteering at all stages in the production and distribution of goods. The remedy for profiteering, which has, in my opinion, been very greatly reduced by the operation of the Act, lies now in the hands of the public, who are invited to lodge complaints wherever they have reasonable grounds for believing themselves to be the victims of unreasonable profit-making.

Rabbits

44.

asked the Food Controller whether the price of rabbits is controlled; and whether they are scheduled by the Board of Trade under the Profiteering Act?

The price of rabbits is controlled under the Wild Rabbit (Prices) Order, dated the 16th August. 1918 Articles of food the prices of which are controlled by the Ministry of Food are expressly excluded from the operation of the Profiteering Act.

Milk Production (Cost)

55.

asked the Food Controller what are the details, item by item, of the cost of production of milk upon which the price of Is. per quart is based; and whether, in. order to allay public misapprehension and class dissension, he will in future publish such itemised details when announcing controlled prices of food products?

The items included in the producer's price of 2s. 9 6/7;d. per gallon of milk during the seven winter months, on which the maximum retail price of 1s. per quart during five of these months is based, have been estimated in, the following proportions:

Per cent,
Feeding stuffs63
Labour15
Rent, depreciation and repairs12.5
Cartage to producer's railway station1.5
Producer's margin, including interest and managerial expenses8
The wholesaler is permitted an average maximum margin, out of which railway charges are paid, of 5d. per gallon, and the retailer's average maximum distribution is 8d. per gallon, the average retail price being accordingly 3s. 10 6/7;d. per gallon for the seven months in question. I would point out that the price of Is. per quart is not a fixed price but a maximum price; this consideration applies equally in the case of the producer and the wholesaler. I am always willing to give itemised! details when requested, but even these are-apt to be misunderstood.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state whether the seven months on which the actual cost is based includes seven summer mouths, or on the average of seven months, taking the seasons right through the year?

The price is baaed on seven consecutive months. It is a matter of controversy whether the months ought to be included in winter or summer.

Is the increased cost of feeding, owing to profiteering in oil cake production, included in the seven months on which the increased price of milk is based?

I have reserved to myself the power in the event of the price of feeding stuff's substantially diminishing to review the price accordingly.

Potatoes (British And German Crops)

58.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture the comparative position, having regard to acreage, tonnage, and disease, of the British and German potato crops in the current year?

The acreage under potatoes in Great Britain this year is 630,600 acres. The estimates of production are not yet available, but the yield will probably be below the average. There is, however, unusually little disease this year. No statistics concerning Germany have yet been published so far as I am aware.

61.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether he can give the number of cases of wart disease in potatoes up to 1st November; and what was the figure up to the same date in the years 1916, 1917, and 1918?

I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the information required by my hon. and gallant Friend.

The cases are us follow:

1st November,191613,440cases.
"191717,690"
"191820,900"
"191922,222"

Eggs

59.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture whether, in view of the shortage of eggs in this country owing to the reduction in imports, any steps are being taken, systematically and adequately, to bring before farmers and smallholders engaged upon the land the imperative need for increased numbers of poultry upon the farms of the country, and, more especially, how far definite work for extension, apart from ordinary lectures, is being undertaken in the counties by visitation of the farmers and providing classes for farmers' wives and daughters in this subject?

Every endeavour is being made to extend the industry, not only by lectures, but in a practical way, by distributing among small poultry-keepers sittings of eggs from distributing stations, of which 158 have already been established, and by training in poultry-keeping settlers on certain of the Board's farm settlements, and disabled men at other centres. Generally, I may say that the Board fully recognise the importance of encouraging poultry-keeping, and are taking active steps to induce county committees to promote the industry by all well-considered means.

Mothers' Pensions

45.

asked the Prime Minister if he will consider the desirability of the adoption of some scheme of mothers' pensions; and if he is aware that in the United States of America thirty-five States concede adequate mothers' pensions; that three provinces out of the nine in Canada pay mothers' pensions; that New Zealand allows £30 per year for the widow with children, under the 1913 Act; and that Queensland. Australia, allows l5s. per week for all widows and from 8s. to 10s. per week for each child?

I can only refer to the reply given on the 13th instant to a similar question put by the hon. Member for East Islington, and to the reply to the question put by the hon. and gallant Member for South Tottenham on the 5th instant, to the effect that the Government does not feel able to undertake legislation on this subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to recommend to the Government that the whole question of the endowment of motherhood should be reviewed by the Government in connection with the Insurance Act?

The most elaborate detailed inquiries have been made into the subject already.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it would be more economical, in view of the cost of maintaining the children, to carry out the measure suggested by the hon. Member than to allow them to go into the workhouse?

That may be so, but the question is addressed to the subject of mothers' pensions.

I am suggesting that as an alternative. Would it not be wiser and more economical to give the pensions than to allow them to go into the workhouse at double the cost?

These pensions are proposed for the mothers. The hon. Member is referring to the children.

Local Elections (Proportional Representation)

47.

asked the Prime Minister if it has been brought to his notice that the London County Council and twenty-six municipal councils, including those of Leeds, York, Barrow-in-Furness, Burnley, Stoke-on-Trent, and Wigan, have passed resolutions in support of the Local Elections (Proportional Representation) Bill, 1919; and if he will endeavour to pass this Bill, which is merely a permissive Bill, through the House of Commons during the present Session in order to me-et the demand of these important councils?

So far I have only received one resolution on this subject. Owing to the pressure on Parliamentary time it is unlikely that it will be possible to proceed with the Local Elections Bill this Session.

Old Age Pensions

50.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the question of introducing an amendment to the Old Age Pension Act to the effect that payments from friendly societies and other provident organisations shall not be taken into account when calculating the income of a claimant for the old age pension, and thus remove the penalty which now applies to those who, by their thrift, have endeavoured to make some provision for themselves?

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer which was given to the hon. Member for Hertford on the 10th instant.

When may we expect a decision, because the only answer I received was that the matter was receiving consideration?

That is so. The Government awaited the Report of the Old Age Pension Commission, and now they have to examine that Report and decide on the course they shall take.

Turkish Empire

51.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if the Government have any information as to when Congress is likely to meet and definitely signify whether or not the United States will share in the responsibility for protecting the peoples inhabiting the former Turkish Empire and for assisting them until they can stand alone; whether the Government will state what is the approximate daily cost to this country for maintaining the necessary troops and establishments in the Near East pending the decision of the United States Government on this matter, in view of the statement that the daily cost per head of the Army at the present moment is roughly 16s. 8d. and whether, pending the decision of the United States Government, there is any reasonable hope that, taking into consideration the prominent part played by the President of the United States in the establishment of the League of Nations and the mandatory system, it may he anticipated that part of the cost foe maintaining order in the Near East will be shared by the United States of America?

As regards the first part of the question, I have no certain information as to when the American decision on this question may be expected. But while it is the sincere hope of His Majesty's Government that America will co-operate in this task, they and their European Allies are fully alive to the necessity for preparing for the contrary contingency. As regards the second part of the question, the Army of the Black Sea is costing £24,000 a day. This does not, however, include the various substantial commitments in Mesopotamia, Palestine, and Persia. As regards the third part of the question, His Majesty's Government have urged that the expenses of the Armistice period in occupied parts of Turkey may be refunded to the occupying Power by any other Power which may eventually receive the mandate for any of these areas

Housing Act

52.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that since the estimate of £10,000,000 as the annual Imperial subsidy under the Housing Act of this year was made in May last year the cost of building materials and labour and of raising money has much increased; and whether, in view of these facts, he will consider the advisability of presenting revised estimates to the House?

The estimate of £10,000,000 is a recent one, and my right hon. Friend sees no reason to revise it.

Has the hon. Gentleman seen the estimates which have been published recently showing that there is a loss per annum of something like £20,000, £30,000, or even £50,000?

In the event, as is generally understood, of the Government introducing new proposals on Friday, which may modify the finance, will the Leader of the House take steps to have a statement in the hands of hon. Members before the discussion?

I do not anticipate any modification as great as would require that course being taken, but I will consult with my hon. Friend whether there is any information which we can give.

I have not considered any other method by which it can be taken than by moving the Adjournment.

Lord Beatty And Lord Haig (Grants)

53.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the grants of money made to Lord Beatty, Lord Haig, and other naval and military officers, have been paid; if not, what is the reason for the delay; and whether interest will be due to these officers from the date on which the grants were made?

Payment has been made to the Public Trustee for investment on behalf of the recipients in six cases, and will be made in other cases as soon as the necessary trusts are completed by the parties concerned. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.

Are these grants of money subject to Income Tax or any other form of taxation?

Gold Coinage

54.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the increase of gold coinage in the country between October, 1917, and October, 1918, and also between October, 1918, and October, 1919; and it' the Treasury note issue has correspondingly been reduced?

No gold has been coined in this country since October, 1917; and the gold coin estimated to be held by banks has slightly decreased.

Is it not now practicable that a gold coinage should obtain arid paper money be reduced, so as to reduce the cost of living, if appropriate steps were taken by the Treasury to stop the exportation of gold to other countries?

Outdoor Relief (Workmen's Compensation)

49.

asked the Prime Minister if, in view of the increasing amount of expenditure to boards of guardians necessary to relieve persons who are in receipt of workmen's compensation because the amount of compensation granted under the Acts is inadequate due to the cost of living, he will introduce; a measure at an early date to obviate the necessity of persons in receipt of compensation being compelled in many cases to apply for outdoor relief for themselves and their families?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. I hope to introduce a Bill on this subject at a very early date.

Hides

56.

asked the Food Controller what is the profit per pound on hides sold under the direction of the Ministry of Food, and the total gross proceeds of these sales?

The average profit per pound on hides sold under the direction of the Ministry of Food is approximately 4½d. per pound, the amount varies with the quality of the hides, and it is impossible to give an exact figure without considerable labour. I am unable to give an accurate estimate of the total gross proceeds of these sales. These profits are utilised in the reduction of the price of meat to the consumer and accrue to the Ministry of Food instead of to the butcher. The arrangement further involves no loss to the farmers, since the value of the hide is included in the guaranteed prices for cattle.

Government Flax Factories (Sale)

60.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture if any decision has been come to as to the future of the Government flax factories; what sum has been spent on them during the present year; and whether any further expenditure is being incurred on them at the present time?

The Board, in conjunction with the Surplus Government Property Disposal Board, are offering for sale the whole undertaking, including the factories. An advertisement inviting tenders has appeared in the Press, and offers are being received.

I understand from the Office of Works, who erect and equip the factories, that the capital expenditure already met during the current financial year is approximately £340,000. Work is proceeding for their completion, and it is estimated that the commitments for that purpose amount to approximately £280,000. On the general financial position of the enterprise I may refer my hon. Friend to my reply to the question of the hon. Member for Wirral on the 29th October.

National Health Insurance (Scotland)

64.

asked the Under-Secretary for the Scottish Board of Health whether he is aware that draft medical benefit regulations containing proposed new conditions of service in England have been laid by the Minister of Health for England before the representatives of the medical profession and insurance committees; whether draft regulations have yet been prepared for Scotland; and, if so, whether these Regulations have yet been submitted to the medical profession and insurance committees in Scotland, or, if not, when he propose to do so?

I am aware that advance copies of a draft of proposed medical benefit regulations have been circulated to panel and insurance committees in England. The matter of new medical benefit regulations for Scotland is engaging the attention of the Scottish Board of Health, who have arranged to consult representatives of insurance practitioners and insurance committees on the subject on the 20th instant.

Coal Production

Anthracite Stoves

65.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that many persons, on the official advice of the Coal Controller, purchased anthracite stoves and are at present unable to use them, because they cannot obtain that form of coal, measures might be taken to see that the British demand for this fuel should be satisfied before its export beyond seas is permitted?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for the Edgbaston Division of Birmingham on the 29th October.

Delivery Notes

66.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the reason for Clause 48 of the Household Fuel and Lighting Order being cut down so that the representation in the delivery note of the class or quality of the coal, together with the price of same, now only applies to sales of coal for resale, and the statement on the ticket of the class or quality of coal and the price applicable thereto is not obligatory in the sale of coal direct to consumer; and whether he will state what protection, under these circumstances, the consumer has against being defrauded in quality and overcharged in price?

Clauses 68 and 69 of the Household Fuel and Lighting Order, 1919, take the place of and have the same effect as Clause 48 of the 1918 Order, so far as delivery notes are concerned.

Excess Prices

67.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state how many representatives of the Coal Controller have been appointed in connection with the carrying out of the Price of Coal (Limitations) Act and the Wholesale Coal Pi-ices Order; how many colliery proprietors have been prosecuted for charging an excess price for coal since the passage of the Act in 1915; how many coal merchants have been prosecuted for charging excess price for coal since the coming into operation of the Order in September, 1917; how many of the Coal Controller's representatives are or were directly or in directly connected with the sale of coal; and how many were coal merchants previous to appointment?

The section of the Coal Mines Department which administers the Price of Coal (Limitation) Act, 1915, and the Wholesale Coal Prices Order, 1917, consists of six persons, two of whom—-including the head of the section—arc permanent Civil servants and none of whom is or has been directly or indirectly connected with the sale of coal. One colliery company has been prosecuted for charging prices in excess of those which could be justified under the Act of 1915, and nine merchants have been prosecuted for breaches of the Wholesale Coal Prices Order, 1917.

Wireless Installations

68.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is refusing to issue licences to amateurs for working wireless installations; if so, will he state his reasons for his refusal; and has he framed or is he framing any Regulations for the above purpose?

Permits for establishing wireless receiving stations for experimental purposes have been issued for some time past, and a limited number of transmitting stations have also been authorised in cases where the installations were required for experiments, of a special nature. General Regulations have now been framed for the issue of permits for experimental transmitting stations. Applicants must produce evidence that they are of British nationality, that they have in view some definite object of scientific value or general public utility, and that they possess the necessary technical knowledge and operative skill. It will obviously be necessary to secure that installations shall be so constructed and worked as not to interfere with the working of naval, military, and commercial stations.

British Trade Representatives

Travel Facilities On Warships

72.

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what steps have been taken to give effect to the Ministerial suggestion that representatives of British manufacturing and trading concerns shall be allowed to travel on British warships proceeding to distant ports; and when he anticipates that such arrangements will be completed?

I have been asked to reply to this question. Arrangements have been made whereby the Admiralty will give to the Department of Oversea Trade early information of any sailings of His Majesty's ships which might be utilised for this purpose, and the Department of Oversea Trade will allocate the berths available to business men. Applications for passages should be made to the Department of Oversea Trade.

Will the First Lord of the Admiralty give an assurance that officers will not be taken out of their cabins in order to provide accommodation?

I am afraid that I did not hear the answer to the question, but if my Noble Friend has any anxiety about the position of the officers, if he will communicate with me I will give him every possible security.

Flying Boats

74.

asked the Under-Secretary of State to the Air Ministry whether it is proposed to encourage the development of flying boats as distinct from seaplanes; and, if so, what steps have been taken towards such encouragement?

The reply to the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question is in the affirmative; and to the second part that three different types of experimental boat seaplanes are on order and that, as already announced, one of the prizes in the British Aircraft Competition for 1020 it; for a boat or float seaplane.

Have the Admiralty been consulted as to the possible requirements of these seaplanes, or are experiments conducted without the co-operation of the Admiralty?

Having regard to the fact that all flying boats are essentially operative with the Navy, will he see that they are consulted?

Civil Aviation

75.

asked the Under-Secretary of State to the Air Ministry what competitions have been organised by the Government for the development of civil aviation; do these competitions pay regard to the possible military value of the designs to be entered; and does he consider that it is possible in the future development of flying to combine the dual functions of both war and peace with practicability?

The reply to the first part of my hon. and gallant Friend's question is that three competitions are being organised for the year 1920. They are to be open to small aeroplanes, large aeroplanes, and seaplanes, respectively, the seaplane competition being framed with the object of develoing a type of aircraft capable of alighting on and rising from land as well as water. The total prizes amount to £64,000. It is also under consideration whether, in addition to these, at a later date, a fourth competition should be organised for a large type of flying boat not required to possess amphibious qualities.

The reply to the second part of the question is that the above competitions are designed with a view to the attainment of safety and comfort of air travel. It is expected that a number of valuable lessons will be learned as the result of them, and many of these will undoubtedly be of great use from a military point of view. Where, however, military requirements diverge from safety requirements, the latter will be given the preference. In regard to the third part of the question, it seems probable that the designs of civil and military aircraft will diverge as time goes on. But, whatever class of aircraft is experimented with, certain improvements are sought for; those may be in regard to aerodynamic qualities, method of construction, reliability of engines or petrol installation, etc., and the knowledge thus gained can be used equally in designing now civil or military aircraft.

Spirits

Clearance Restrictions Removed

(by Private Notice) asked the Food Controller whether he is yet in a position to state the decision of the Cabinet with regard to allowing extra quantities of spirit to be cleared, in view of the increased demand at this period of the year for medicinal and other purposes; and, if he is not yet in a position to make such an announcement, whether he will state when he expects to be able to do so?

I am now able to announce that the Cabinet have decided that all restrictions on clearances of spirits from bond shall be removed forthwith.

Does that mean that people can clear as much as they wish or that they are restricted to the level of 1916?

American Exchange

asked the Leader of the House whether -his attention has been called to the fall of the American sterling exchange this morning to $4.07; and, in view of the urgent necessity of action, what policy the Government propose to adopt?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has more than once, stated to the House that he did not think it wise to return to the policy of giving artificial support to the dollar exchange which was abandoned last March. He sees no necessity in present circumstances for reversing that decision.

Will my hon. Friend consider the possibility of adopting measures to check the importation of surplus manufactured goods?

My right hon. Friend only received notice of this question at lunch time and as he is in bed to-day he has not yet had time to consider it.

Does not the rate of exchange automatically restrict the importation of unnecessary articles?

Imprisonment Of Members

informed the House that he had received the following letter relating to the imprisonment of Members:

"Metropolitan Police Courts,

Inn's Quay, Dublin,

13th November, 1919.

Sir,

I have the honour to inform you that John O'Mahony, John Hayes, and Frank Lawless, esquires, Members of Parliament, having been arrested in the City of Dublin on the 11th November instant, were brought before ma yesterday, the 12th instant, charged with an offence against Section 7 of the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act, 1887, in. that they did take part in the proceedings of an association, to wit, the Dail Eireann, which had been declared by His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to be a dangerous association within the meaning of the said Act, and, on being convicted of such offence, were sentenced by me to be imprisoned, each for a period of two calendar months without hard labour. I further ordered each of the defendants to give bail to be of the peace and good behaviour for twelve months, himself in £20 with one surety in £20, or, in default, to be imprisoned for a further period of one calendar month.

In pursuance of such sentences, each of the above-named defendants was, on the aforesaid l!2th instant, committed to Mountjoy Prison, Dublin.

I have the honour to be, Sir,

Your obedient servant,

ERNEST G. SWIFTE, K.C.,

Chief Magistrate,

Police District of Dublin Metropolis.

The Right Hon. The Speaker, M.P.,

House of Commons."

Land Settlement (Scotland) Bill

Reported, with Amendments, from the Standing Committee on Scottish Bills.

Report to he upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 210.]

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 210.]

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Thursday, and to he printed. [Bill 210.]

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee D

SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee D (added in respect of the Agriculture and Fisheries (Councils, etc.) Bill): Major Nall; and had appointed in substitution: Captain Douglas Brown.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee D: Major Wheler.

Standing Committee E

SIR SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had

added the following Member to Standing Committee E (for the consideration of the National Assembly of the Church of England (Powers) Bill [ Lords]): Mr. Tootill.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee E: Mr. Rupert Gwynne and Mr. Lane-Fox; and had appointed in substitution, Sir Stuart Coats and Captain Sir Beville Stanier.

Reports to he upon the Table.

Orders Of The Day

Aliens Restriction Bill

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the-third time."

I beg to move to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof the words

"this House, whilst willing to provide the executive with the fullest powers necessary to deal with dangerous and undesirable aliens, declines to give a Third Reading to a Bill which by its own provisions and the reprisals they may excite checks the growth of our overseas trade; which clogs that free intercourse with foreign nations by which in art, science, literature, and religion this country has greatly gained; which impairs the British tradition of right of asylum; and which forms an obstacle to international goodwill and a hindrance to the work of the League of Nations."
I move this in order to take the opportunity of putting before the House the general objections which many of us feel to a measure of this kind, introduced as it is at the conclusion of a great war, and one which we had hoped would see the inauguration of peace in the world and goodwill amongst the nations of the world. The Bill has been reprinted, as amended in Committee and on Report, and we have to remember that, as it now stands, it is not the proposal which the Government considered necessary for dealing with this question. The Government considered the whole question, and came to the conclusion that the case would be met by a Bill of one Clause which was accordingly introduced, and went upstairs to a Standing Committee. As a result of the pressure brought to bear on the Government by some Members of this House, the Bill was very greatly altered, and instead of the one Clause which was the sole constituent of the original Bill, we have a Bill which runs into sixteen or seventeen Clauses, each of which, except the one original Clause, represents a concession made by the Government, more or less reluctantly, in response to pressure from hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. I do not know whether hon. Members have read the whole Bill or have read the draft Orders in Council which can be made under Clause 1, because, if they do so, I venture to say that they will find that the Bill contains restrictions, and deals with inspections and irritations of all kinds which seem to be utterly unnecessary and very harmful at this particular moment. Under Clause 13, I observe that all the penalties which were imposed on enemy aliens may be applied by the Home Secretary to any aliens. If I deal with the subject in a general way, I shall not be accused of making more of it than it really deserves, because the Home Secretary has the widest penal powers provided.

The Motion which, in conjunction with my hon. Friend's, I have brought forward, attempts to survey the whole question of the relation of this country to other countries, and the influence of aliens of all countries on our own history, because we hold from the Liberal point of view that we have very greatly benefited, materially, politically and in every other way, from the free association which this country has always fostered with the other countries of the world. First of all, in the Resolution we put the material benefits. We allege that this Bill tends to check the growth of overseas trade. It tends to check it directly by hindering our free intercourse with aliens, and indirectly by exciting on the part of other countries-reprisals of a like nature to these. We really must take a broader view of this question than that which is taken by hon. Members below the Gangway. We must take a broad historical view. We are not legislating for the year 1919 only. We should legislate in the spirit which has been the secret of the success of our country. This very City, which is the metropolis of the Empire, was founded upon its commerce, and that commerce was founded upon a vast alien immigration. Green says of the fall of Antwerp to the Duke of Parma—
"The commercial supremacy of our own capital was first established by the merchants and manufacturers of the ruined city who were said to have found a refuge on the bank of the Thames."
I wonder what the hon. Member for West Ham of that day would have said about a flood of undesirable immigrants competing with British labour, when all these Dutchmen came over—to whom, as we now see, we really owe the predominance of our capital in the trade of the world. [An HON. MEMBER: "When was that?"] That was in the time of Elizabeth. I am taking a broad view. It may be exceedingly-ridiculous in the eyes of some Members to take a historical view: I do not want to refer to the Huguenots or the Flemings. I will come right down to to-day. The trade in modern bedroom furniture was entirely created in this country by an alien—I am not sure he was not an enemy alien—a most enterprising man, Mr. Harris Lebus. His father came here as an immigrant; I suppose some would have said he came as an undesirable immigrant. And that one man, by devising machinery for the manufacture of furniture in large quantities, built up an enormous trade in this country. I think it fair to say that next to cheap houses there is no more desirable thing for the well being of the people in general than cheap furniture. If I started in. history, at any rate, I. will end up with something a little more modern.

4.0 P.M.

I was speaking on Saturday to a cotton-spinner about the numbers of alien shippers who live in Manchester. He pointed out what, of course, is wholly true—that no man of our own race could possibly understand the precise tastes of these foreign markets. A design which may appear to us garish or ridiculous in the extreme may De the very thing that is required; so much so that you cannot send Englishmen to these countries to get orders. You require a man who knows the country and the taste of the country, and you require him to come back and to live in this country in order to guide our manufacturers. That seems to me perfectly obvious. When speaking of reprisals, we have to remember the Near East. I do not know whether Turkey is in a position to retaliate. If we are going to deport all Turks, all Mahomedan Turks, I do not think we could reasonably complain if the Turks did the same to us. If that were done—I am bound to say I do not think they would dare, in their own interest, to do it—it would be absolute ruin and collapse to the whole of our vast trade in the Near East. Representatives of British industry are now flocking back to Turkey by every ship. Speaking on this question of trade, I would remind the House that 120,000 Englishmen leave this country every year to settle in alien lands, so that we have to remember their interests and the treatment that they are likely to receive at the hands of others when we are passing, as I think, such ridiculous legislation in this country. I pass from the trade aspect of the alien problem to what is called the right of asylum, the sentimental interest attaching to the British tradition of the right of asylum. We are very proud to think that in this country in past centuries many political refugees have found a home and. have learned to love our institutions. It has been a very great material benefit to us as well. Let us take a modern case. It was a critical time in the War when the decision of Italy to intervene was taken in the year 1915. There is no doubt that was-one of the crises in that great struggle. Am I employing the language of hyperbole when I say that our free reception and friendship extended during the middle of the nineteenth century to Italian patriots was largely responsible for that warm feeling of love for this country in Italy which caused her people to push their Government into intervention on our side? It seems to me that is absolutely so. A modern case is that of M. Paderewski, who became an apostle of Western civilisation in Europe. Another case is that of Madam Destinn the singer. She was an Austrian subject, and would have been subject to all the penal provisions of this Bill. Madam Destinn or Destinovo as she is now called, is now playing the part of an enthusiastic friend of England. She is not only a singer, but also an author, and a very distinguished Bohemian patriot. It is no exaggeration to say that the British right of aslyum which we have always cherished has brought in its train great material benefits for our country.

The next part of the Resolution to which I would like to refer is the general question of the benefits which we have received from free intercourse with all mankind. It is almost a hackneyed subject. The great Italian Renaissance was entirely due to the immigration of undesirable people from Constantinople into Italy. I can imagine the hon. Gentleman's prototypes in Florence and Tuscany in those days speaking of the flood of these Greeks as competing with the Italians and interfering with their trade. It was the free relation which we had with those countries in those far-off days which enabled us to share in all the benefits of the Renaissance. If it is alleged that that is too remote, we have only to remember in the field of art how many distinguished aliens there have been within our own recollection. Sara-sate, Whistler, Halle, Bartolozzi, and Mary Anderson! All aliens. An hon. Gentleman says, "Why do they not become naturalised?" The best sort will riot become naturalised, because they are proud of their country, and we ought to be glad. to receive them here. In literature we have Max Muller and Joseph Conrad, a man who has contributed very largely to the wealth of British literature.

No, I think not. Conrad preferred to write in our own tongue. He is an enemy alien, and could not land under this Bill.

No, a German Pole. I speak subject to correction, but he is a man who undoubtedly would come under this Bill.

Kuno Meyer, after all is said and done, did, I think, more good than harm in this country. He was an enemy of this country, but he contributed very largely to learning in this country. Kuno Meyer would be an undesirable alien under this Bill, and the Home Secretary would have power to deal with him. Of course, in the general way of the building up of the Empire, we need only refer to the origin of Lord Beaconsfield. We have also to remember that the beginning of the better housing of the people of this country was due to George Pea-body, who was an alien amongst us. As to science, the field is so large that it is almost impossible to explore it. There are Von Reuter, famous the world over for his Press telegrams; Sir William Siemens, president of the Royal Society; and Sir Arthur Schuster, who has rendered incalculable service to our country during the War. At this moment the world of scientific medicine is organising a scheme for the interchange of research work between this country and America. Under this Bill all the paraphernalia of passports, photographs, and inspection, with special permits, will have to be undertaken by these scientists whom really we ought to welcome with open arms.

Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman say to what Clause he is referring?

Clause 1 and the Orders made under Clause 1. All aliens have to land at certain ports. They have to have passports and photographs not more than five years old. They have to report themselves to the police, and to get permits to move in different districts. All that unnecessary irritation and restriction in this concrete case is checking an important work of science. While I am on the field of science, there is an enemy alien called Einstein who has dicovered a new theory of light. I am glad to say that owing to this Bill we shall prevent the dumping of any German science in this country. We shall be able to have an all-British law of gravity, and so long as we can rely upon the right hand of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway we need not have any fear that the election pledges as to an all-red science will be broken I have examined the provisions of this Bill and the Orders that have been drafted under it. I have tried to examine them in the light of history, and to see what would have happened to some of the distinguished aliens who have contributed so much to the national well-being. I take, first, the Orders in Council. Orders in Council No. 1 prevents the entry of any alien who cannot support himself. Under that Order we should have had no Rossetti, no Antony Panizzi, whose work in the British Museum was of such incalculable value in spreading the means of self-education to thousands. I need scarcely mention Benjamin West, but he would have been excluded. The Home Secretary is not able to exclude undesirables by name; you give him power to exclude everybody on the chance that he will get one or two undesirables, and the result is you will exclude the harmless English-loving aliens who like the freedom of this country.

Really, when you deal with the thing in a broad historical way the case for a Bill of this kind becomes so ridiculous that it is almost cruelty to pursue it. Take Section 9 of the draft Order in Council, which states that the Secretary of State may prohibit the use or possession of any machine, apparatus, or article of any description. What would have become of Marconi and his investigations made in this country in a science which rendered us a great service during the War? What would have become of Poulsen? I will not mention Herschel and his telescope. I see that Order No. 12 gives the same wide powers to the Secretary of State to deport anyone if he deems it to be conducive to the public good. I should like to see what would have happened to Garibaldi when a private note was sent round by the Austrian Embassy to the Home Secretary of that day. There is a Clause in the Bill which gives ten years to any alien who stirs up disaffection among the civilian population. Tyndall with his German friends, Martin Luther and St. Augustine, would all have been deported under the first Clause of the Bill, and, as to Tyndall sending his translations of the Bible to Wurtemberg, he would have been dealt with under D.O.R.A. Section 6 forbids any alien to be employed in the public service. That would have excluded Holbein, Van Dyek, Handel, and Sir Peter Lely. Sir Peter Lely would have been caught under two Sections. He would have been excluded from the public service, because I suppose Charles paid him out of public funds, but, worse than that. be changed his name. He was not Peter Lely at all; it was Van der Faes, and no one can pretend that Lely is the English translation as near as may be of Van der Faes. The Bill for the deportation of aliens would have rid us of Rousseau and Froissard, and, worse still, another man who would have suffered would have been Kossuth. It is so all through the ridiculous provisions of this Bill. Perhaps on the whole Section 11 is the most absurd.

This prevents enemy aliens having any interest in a key industry. A key industry is not defined in this Bill, but it is stated that it is going to be defined later on by the Board of Trade. I understand that a key industry is something to enable you to win in the next war. Surely, if we can get any help from enemies or anybody else to get devices which will help us to win the next war we ought to do so. What can be the purpose of preventing that, and what would be the result of a provision of this kind, say, against the Marconi invention Marconi is a native of a country which, at one time, was in alliance with the enemy, and a native of a country which, presumably, would have gone in against us in the War. What would have been the result of harrying a man like that from carrying on his operations and experiments here, and which were of inestimable advantage to us? Perhaps we shall have a better opportunity on the anti-Dumping Bill of finding out what is the idea of preventing the use of enemy talent that we can secure, for I admit, at present, I cannot understand what the purpose is. Is it to save this country from being beaten in the next war? If so, what is the good of showing our venom to people like Austrians, Bulgarians and Turks, who cannot be supposed to be potential enemies of this country? Is it to protect the trade of this country? The curious thing is that the people who want to keep out aliens and their services and goods are the very people who clamour most loudly for making Germans pay the whole cost of the War.

An hon. Gentleman interrupted me just now and asked would I recommend the entry of certain people whom he named and who were obviously of undesirable character? My reply is, of course not. What we think should be done is to endow the Home Secretary with the fullest possible power to deal individually with the people who are a danger to this country. This Bill does nothing of the kind. It is a Bill which leaves enormous loopholes. Take Section 16, which provides that the Bill shall not apply to a man who has been "naturalised in any other foreign State." Would there under that Section be the least difficulty for people to secure Swiss nationality in order to drive a submarine through the whole of the Clauses of this precious Bill? This is a Bill which excludes people who may possibly be of some use or value to this country, and which is absolutely futile and useless against a man who is determined to come here in order to do us an injury. We believe that what the world wants at the present moment is peace and work, and those are precisely the things this Bill interferes with. You have all the paraphernalia of passports and fingerprints, and remember that the Bill gives the Home Secretary the power to have fingerprints taken, not of any individual, but generally. All that sort of thing cherishes suspicion and hatred, and is inimical to the very spirit which we wish to see fostered. If you wish to make this country strong in fight, you do not nerve its arm by hatred. Hatred does not make people fight better any more than fear or shame. Chivalry is a great force, and a. force of great material military value. What we want to see is growing in the world, and a world which will-have an atmosphere in which the League of Nations may have a chance of success. What, we hope is that we shall see a better atmosphere, which I believe is growing in the world. It is perhaps too much to hope that hon. Gentlemen who are supporters of this Bill will are the flash on the Damascus Road, but the good sense of this country will, I think, speedily end this miasma of persecution.

I desire to support the hon. and gallant Member in moving the reasoned objection of this Bill. My principal reason for doing so is that it seems to me to run directly contrary to the whole idea of the League of Nations. I think, generally speaking, we may say that those who are most keen in opposition to this Bill are those who are most keen for a strong and real League of Nations, and that those who are supporting this Bill are at bottom opposed to the idea of the League of Nations. The distinction is quite clear. At the back of the League of Nations idea is the same idea that inspires the Labour party on these benches— that is, international solidarity, rather than the creation and stimulation of national differences. To inspire national differences has always been one of the dopes with which Labour has been kept quiet, because if you hate your next-door neighbour in another country, then Labour will pay less attention to the injustices from which it suffers in the country of its birth. This Bill is not merely directly contrary to the idea of the League of Nations, but it will undoubtedly do harm to the successful carrying out of any such League. I looked in this Bill to see how it would affect our American cousins across the Atlantic. Under this Bill an American who lands in this country has to go through all the trouble and difficulty which he experienced during the War. Americans coming to this country during the War have over and over again said to me, "We are treated as though we were enemies of this country." When they got to the ports they were lined up in queues to have their passports examined and their photographs examined, and I have even known cases of Americans coming here to do Red Cross work and in connection with the nursing profession taken into State cabins and stripped to the skin, under these Rules and Regulations, to see if they were carrying any information. All that stirs up ill-will between us and America. Every American officer who came over here and who was told to produce his passport immediately felt that he had a grievance against this country, and, under this Bill, for two years, at any rate, all those difficulties are being perpetuated and all this friction is being engendered between us and America. So far as America is concerned, we must remember that everything we do to Americans will most surely be retaliated on our shoulders, and we shall, find that the restrictions we put on Americans coming into England will be applied to English people going to America. [An HON. MEMBER: "They are now!"]

Surely now, when we are getting on with the idea of uniting all the peoples in a League of Nations, this Bill is the queerest satire upon, the spirit which is supposed to inspire this new movement? It is not merely that this Bill is directly contrary to the spirit, of internationalism and inspired with the desire to engender international hate, but this Bill is also a cruel Bill, and it is to that side of it that I would like to direct the attention of the House. The War has been cruel enough to the English wives of enemy aliens who have been separated from their husbands for five years, and their husbands in many cases have been sent back to Germany, and the wife and children left behind. Their homes have been broken up, and they have been unable to get work, and they are known by their foreign German names by their neighbours, and they have been unwelcome in shops where they went to buy their food. All that has gone on during the War, and now by a special fiendish device, the whole of those wartime cruelties are to be continued, and they are cruelties not to Germans, not to Austrians, not to Turks, but to English-born women who have committed the frightful crime of marrying a foreigner. I have got a letter from one here typical of many hundreds which I have received during the War, and in which she says:
"I am the wife of a German who was interned and then repatriated, leaving me here with two sons, the eldest one being consumptive and the other one still in the Army and in France. I want my dear husband to be allowed to come back and help to support myself and my sick son. I have been married twenty-three years, and I have never been out of England."
That is only one sample of many of those letters which are all the same. Those unfortunate wives and families have had their breadwinners taken away and sent back to Germany, and under this Bill they may not come back for three years. It is the same with those who wore interned in this country and who have been passed by Mr. Justice Younger's Committee as being fit to return. They are to be deported and their wives and families left behind, unless, indeed, they can make out a case good enough for the Home Secretary or a Committee to leave them in this country. There is no question of danger to this country. It is merely a question of vengeance and spite against these un- fortunate people who happen to belong to an enemy country by reason of their marriage. The whole thing would be pathetic were it not that you have at the back of this movement a desire to exact vengeance upon the German people for their cruelties during the War. I for one do not wish to exact vengeance. It seems to me that vengeance has been worked on Germany by other Powers, and it might be left in other hands to carry on this horrible work. I do not want to have vengeance for the loss of my relations; I do not want to see England adopt an attitude which is not only unchivalrous but also unchristian. What we have got to do is to try and heal the wounds that have been created by this War, and not to perpetuate them for ever by adding salt to the wounds that have been made. I am no longer a member of the Liberal party, but I believe there are many members of that party sitting on the Coalition side who would attach weight to the opinions of Liberals in the past. We have had Bills like this brought forward over and over again, but never such a bad Bill as this. Sir Evans Gordon, in the old days, Claude Hay, all these people brought forward anti-alien Bills, the last two such Bills being brought forward in 1904 and 1905. Those Bills were strenuously opposed by the whole of the Liberal and Labour parties. The Bill of 1904, which was not so bad as this, was withdrawn, and when it was introduced in 1905 it was modified in many respects in a Liberal direction. Mr. Asquith, dealing with that Bill, makes three points which seem to me to be as good Liberal points to-day as they were then. Ho says of the second Bill, that of 1905, as compared with the 1904 Bill, that it
"vested in the Home Secretary executive power, by his own act, without the protection of any preliminary judicial investigation, without any regard to any law of evidence, which is the safeguard of our liberties, to refuse admission to alien immigrants and to expel them from this country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd May, 1905, col. 742, Vol. 145.]
He went on to say how glad he was that that had been altered in the 1905 Bill, but we have gone back to it in 1919, Mr. Asquith deals again with the question of the right of asylum. He says:
"The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Sir C. Dilke) has called attention to the importance of preserving the right or privilege of asylum in this country, not only for the victims of political but of religious persecutions also." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd May, 1905, col. 743, Vol. 145.]
That right of asylum has gone, too, and the idea that people might now fly from Russia to this country and take asylum here for political purposes, or that, driven by religious persecutions, they might come here from Russia, has entirely vanished. The right of asylum has gone under this Bill, and, instead, all poor people are to be excluded. The last point he made is as applicable to-day as it was to the first Bill of 1904. Mr. Asquith said that provision had been put in which enabled an appeal from the immigration office to what is called the immigration board. That has also gone under this Bill. We have gone back to the worst provisions of the Bill of 1904, and we have gone back under the directions of a so-called Liberal Home Secretary. I can only regret that the Home Secretary is a Liberal; we should have been much better off if this question had come to be discussed under his immediate predecessor. Unfortunately, he is a nominal Liberal, but he is not a politician. His whole career has been on legal lines; he has no political ambitions, no political ideals to maintain, and I do ask him to remember in the future, if he has not remembered in the past, that he is not merely responsible for the safety of this country, but that he has also in his hands the honour of this country, and it is that which has been dragged in the mud by the passage of this Bill.

The last two speakers have taken up the position that this Bill goes, if anything, too far, but I am afraid, possibly because I represent a constituency that is overrun with hordes of undesirable aliens, that if anything the Bill does not go far enough, certainty not as regards the undesirable aliens. Those of us who have endeavoured, not I think without success, to strengthen this Bill, have had many hard things said of us, and Member after Member has accused us of anti-Semitism and Jew-baiting. Speaking for myself, and I feel I can speak for most of the hon. Members whom I joined in the Lobby on the occasion when we defeated the Government, none of us have any feeling against the Jews. In my own Constituency I can say that if only all the aliens there were as hard working, as industrious, as thrifty, and took as much care of their children as do most of the Jews, I for one would have no cause for complaint against them, but I am up against, first, the enemy aliens, and, secondly, the undesirable aliens. Listening to the hon. and gallant Gentleman who moved the rejection of the Bill, you would think we wore up against ail aliens, but that is not the truth. We are up against the enemy aliens and the undesirable aliens. Although under the 1905 Act no undesirable alien is allowed to enter the country, in practice undesirable aliens have been coming in in great numbers, and if the Home Secretary has any doubt at all whether there are any undesirable aliens in this country, if he went down to the East End of London and asked the aliens themselves what they think about it all, the better class would tell him that there are many undesirables who ought never to have been allowed here, men who lower the whole social status of the street in which they live, men who live on the gains of women. These are the kind of people that the aliens themselves say are undesirable, and surely our standard of morality and decency is at least as high as that of the aliens themselves. There are two points in connection with the undesirables to which I wish to call attention. During the Report stage, the Home Secretary, in reply to a request of the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle - under - Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood) that he would allow Russians to return to this country, took up a very firm stand. May I read to the House a portion of what he said—

"These men deliberately left this country. They came back here and pretend that they have fought. Whenever we have had a chance of testing their statement it has been untrue. It is suggested that they are hardly treated, innocent persons. They are nothing of the sort. They chose their own beds; they chose to leave this country of their own accord. They would not fight for this country. Any Russian, any alien who has fought for this country—I am signing dozens a day of such orders—is entitled to become naturalised and to become a citizen of this country. We gave that pledge, and we are carrying it out. But a man who deliberately says 'I will not fight for you, I am going back to Russia,' well, let him stop there."— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 22nd October, 1919, cols. 148 and 149, Vol. 120.]
I cheered that statement when it was made, but I was foolish enough to repeat it a day or so afterwards in my own Constituency. Immediately the statement was challenged, and three or four names were given me at that meeting of Russians who had refused to fight for us, who had left this country, and who had come back in spite of the Home Secretary's statement. These men are coming back in considerable numbers, and, upon inquiries, I find some of them allege that they are coming back under what they call Home Office permits, but I cannot get a sight of any of these permits. Many of them are undoubtedly smuggling themselves across as stowaways on ships coming here from the Continent, and when they land in this country the police, if they can find them, arrest them. They are taken before a magistrate, who fines them, but he does not send them back again. He does not deport them, and these Russians, whom the Home Secretary assures us are not coming back to this country, are coming back here, and after they have paid their fine are allowed to stay here. So much fur the Home Secretary's words. The hon. Member for South-East St. Pancras (Mr. Hopkins) was very anxious to include in this Bill a Clause defining the undesirable aliens and prohibiting them entering this country, but the Home Secretary assured us it was quite unnecessary to have that Clause in the Bill, as he already had sufficient powers under the Orders in Council. What does the Order in Council say? "An alien shall not land in the United Kingdom unless (a) he is in a position to support himself and his dependants." There are many other reasons why an alien may not come to this country, but that is the first reason. I have the name and address of a Russian who arrived in this country in September, and before he was allowed to land presumably the Home Office officials satisfied themselves and will vouch for the fact that he was "in a position to support himself and his dependants." Less than six weeks after he landed his wife comes to the Mile End Board of Guardians and asks for relief because her husband is out of work. During the War we had many alien-born wives of these Russians whom this country has been keeping. Our board of guardians has disbursed thousands of pounds in keeping these women, and it is a monstrous thing if these Russians who would not fight for us are allowed to come back again, and we have to keep them, as well as having had to keep their wives during the War. We cannot possibly afford it, and surely we have enough poor of our own. I respectfully submit that, in view of those facts, we are entitled to ask the Home Secretary either that in another place he will insert in this Bill a Clause which defines these undesirable aliens and prohibits them coming into this country, or else that he should get hold of his officials at the Home Office and see that they carry out; more strictly the Orders in Council with reference to these people.

I find myself in cordial agreement with the remarks of the last speaker in so far as they relate to the desirability of preventing undesirable criminal aliens landing or remaining in this country, and, so far as that is concerned, the Home Secretary may rest assured that support will come not only from hon. Members behind him, but from almost every section of this House. In regard to the statement of the hon. Member who has just sat down, that in the East End of London there are crowds of these criminal and undesirable aliens, if that is known to him and his Meads, why he does not go immediately to the police and give them that information is certainly beyond my comprehension, and I think there must be something lacking on the part of his friends if they give him so much information and have not taken the one step further and advised the police at once. In my judgment, the police in this matter are a little bit too drastic. They are sending out of the country almost weekly—it may interest the hon. Member to know—batches of these men, and I have had occasion more, than once to go to the Home Office to protest against the severity with which they are dealing with some of these men. I had a case on Saturday, and I think it will interest the House to know how drastic the Home Office is in these matters. A man was charged at the end of last year with having in his house two Russian aliens who were supposed to be endeavouring to evade military service. He was found guilty and sentenced to three months' imprisonment with hard labour, and to be deported. He served his sentence and was released in February, but he was told they could not deport him, and that he must report to the police every Friday. Since February he has so reported to the police. Last Friday, when ho reported, he was kept in the prison, arid on Sunday he was thrown out of the country. So far as that man broke the law of the land, he deserved to be punished. But there is another point of view. This man has got a wife and six children unprovided for. One of the children, a boy of thirteen, came to me on Saturday afternoon to relate the story. He told me that at school he had been taught the violin, and he said he could go out and earn enough to keep his mother and the children if he could get a permit to leave school, as he was only thirteen years of age. 1, naturally, could not do anything of the kind. His father had been snipped out of the country, as many other fathers have been, for what I regard not as criminal offences, but technical offences, under the Aliens Restriction. Act, under which they have nearly all been punished with hard labour, have served their sentences, have been kept in suspense for many months, and now have been shipped out of the country. There may be various degrees of offences which these people have committed, and undoubtedly many of them should be so shipped, and whenever a man shows that he is a criminal the Home Secretary can count upon the support of practically every Member of this House.

During the Debates, I think, a very wrong impression has arisen in the country that England is one vast horde of aliens. I think it would be interesting for Members to know what is the extent of this great evil. I find, in looking up official figures, that the highest point aliens have ever reached in this country is a total of 280,000 odd, out of which a very large proportion are children, many of them born in this country, and, of the total, Russian Jews form by far the largest proportion. That was in 1901. Since then the alien population of this country has been steadily decreasing. It is also of interest to find what is the percentage of aliens to our total population, and how it compares with other countries. I have taken the trouble to look up the figures. In America the proportion of aliens to its population is something over 13 per cent., whereas Great Britain is O.G5, or practically ½ per cent of the total population, which is the smallest proportion of any of the great countries in the world. In Germany it is 1½ per cent., France 2½per cent., Denmark 3½ per cent., and Switzerland 4 per cent. This is the awful problem with which we are confronted, and which has been the cause of so much misunderstanding throughout the country. Are the aliens who are here such an undesirable crowd as is alleged? If so, what do our Poor Law Returns show in the district in which they congregate? Take the East End of London. There are practically none on our Pool Law, nor have there ever been in the East End of London; and, after all, that ought to be a test. Then take the test of crime. The Police records show that something like 2 per cent, of the total convictions are due to aliens. I have referred already to the valuable influence aliens have in promoting trade in this country. There is one other test I might also apply. Are these aliens, from an educational point of view, good material? I do not think I can do better than recall the fact that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ealing (Sir H. Nield) came down to one of these alien schools to deliver prizes and certificates.

When I was asked to come down, I understood it was an ancient foundation school dating from the reign of Charles II., not an alien school, or I would not have gone into it.

I very much regret that the hon. and learned Member should take up that position. After all, the majority of those children were born in this country, educated in this country, and, by their skill and ability, obtained prizes and certificates, and I do not think it comes well from a Member of this House, especially when he did fulfil the part, and handed over the prizes and congratulated the children, and I do not think it is right of him, to repudiate the part he played on that occasion. The service which aliens have rendered in forming and establishing trade has been most valuable to this country, and with that I will conclude by again assuring the Home Secretary that when he comes to deal with undesirables he will have no more warm supporter than myself in any efforts he wants in that direction.

The hon. and gallant Member who moved the rejection of this Bill gave us a most interesting historical and biographical essay on the subject of aliens at large. I listened with great interest to his speech, and the only thing that caused me to wonder when I heard the conclusion of it was, why on earth it was delivered on this Bill. If this Bill meant the entire exclusion of all aliens in this country, I could understand its relevance, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stepney (Mr. Preston) pointed out, the object of this Bill is to exclude by Orders in Council undesirable aliens, and it makes provision for excluding former enemy aliens. My hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Benn) gave us a most interesting, and, in some ways, an alarmingly long list of eminent persons who had come to this country and were not born here. I was glad to hear of their coming. I think he told us of people like Mary Anderson, Whistler, Italian patriots, Max Muller, Marconi, and I know not who else, but does he mean to suggest that there is one syllable in the enacting part of this Bill which would have got any one of those remarkable and distinguished ladies and gentlemen out of this country? Of course he cannot. I ask him, is there a single part of the enacting part of this Bill which would have got one of these people out of this country?

My answer is that a large number of the cases I gave would have been excluded on the score that they could not have supported themselves. Some of them came as quite penniless foreigners. [An HON. MEMBER: "Max Muller!"] I am speaking of the cases I gave. The hon. and learned Gentleman has only mentioned one or two. I gave the case of the British Museum librarian, and of Rossetti as another, who would have been undoubtedly excluded on the ground of not being able to support themselves, and people who have contributed so much to this country would have been put under all the restrictions and interference provided for in these Orders in Council.

I gather that my hon. and gallant Friend does not say the persons I have named would have been kept out of the country, but he complains that they would have been annoyed by the restrictions. In almost the same breath as he mentioned the distinguished persons who ought to come here, he truly alleged that there wore a lot of undesirable aliens who ought to have been kept out. How are they to be kept out unless you have some restrictions? Are you to tell an undesirable alien by his face or the colour of his hair? Of course there must be inquiry, restriction and examination in order to carry out the hon. and gallant Gentleman's own object. He shakes his head, but it is true all the same, and, therefore, if you have these restrictions, the other aliens who come in, just as we do when we emigrate to the United States, have to submit to certain restrictions, and I confidently believe the people he has named would have been able to come into this country undisturbed by the restrictions of which lie complains. I do not suppose he would suggest that the present Home Secretary, if you gave him power to make Orders in Council, would so abuse his power as to prevent Marconi, for instance, coming into this country. If that is so, what is the meaning of all this declamation and historical reminiscence in which he indulged? It was all whitewash, and nothing to do with this Bill.

5.0 P. M.

Let us come back to the subject matter and the nature of this Bill. This Bill came into the House practically as a skeleton. It has emerged through Committee and Report endowed, I am glad to think, with a certain amount of flesh and blood—a living Bill. The truth is that, when the Bill was introduced, it had all the vices of pre-war legislation. There was nothing in the nature of a Bill. There was a very large power conferred on the Home Secretary by Orders in Council. I do not complain of that in wartime, but I do complain of it very much being done now that the War is over. Many—I think the greater number—in this House think that the time has come when Parliament ought to revert to its constitutional method of legislation, and that the time is past for giving to Ministers and Departments an unlimited power of dealing with all kinds of subjects affecting the liberty of the subject, and almost everything in which human activity is engaged, by Orders in Council made by one Minister, undone by another, re-made in another form by the next Minister, and, as my hon. Friend here says, made by one and probably never enforced by another. I venture to think that the vast majority of us in this House desire—and rightly desire—that the House should revert to the old constitutional method of legislating, not through the intervention of a Minister sitting in his Department, but by the method of passing enactments which can be discussed openly in this House, and passed through both Houses of Parliament. And really that is what has been done in this Bill. There have been a number of Clauses introduced in the Bill, and, as I shall show, some very valuable Clauses, which lay down partially a code for dealing with aliens in this country, and, if I may say so, point out certain activities in which it is right and proper that British subjects, and British subjects alone, should be engaged, and restrict aliens from engaging in things which do not properly fall to their lot. Let me illustrate what I mean, I suppose there is no class of the community in this country who have more deeply earned our gratitude and admiration during the War, in concert with our sailors and our soldiers, than the officers and men of the British Mercantile Marine. This Bill does something at last—it has been a long time coming—for the officers and men of the Mercantile Marine. It provides that no master, chief officer, or chief engineer of a British merchant vessel, except those which trade between ports outside this Kingdom, shall be an alien. My hon. and gallant Friend (Captain W. Benn), who moved the rejection of this Bill, wants to destroy that provision. He wants to provide that all aliens may be masters, officers, and engineers of British merchant ships. Would his constituents approve of that? If I understand aright he sits for a Northern port. I hope he will go to his constituents, or somebody for him, and explain to them, "Here was I in the House of Commons laying it down that the decision of the House of Commons that no alien master, officer, or engineer should be on a British vessel should be abrogated; and I did all I could in the House to ensure that aliens should be masters, officers and engineers of British vessels."

Let me call the attention of the hon. and gallant Gentleman to another provision in this Bill—perhaps he has not read it!—that there should be no pilot coming into a port in the United Kingdom who is an alien. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman go to his constituents and tell them that he wants to make these aliens eligible as British pilots? It would be interesting to know the result of such a confession before the constituents. That is not all. There is a very important provision in Clause 5 which deals with the crews of British ships, and provides that, so far as possible, British seamen should be employed in preference to alien seamen. I am reminded by an hon. Friend near me that the most important factor in connection with this matter in the Bill is this: A standard of wages is kept up, so that it would not be to the interests of the ship-owner to employ alien seamen at a less wage than British seamen. I suppose the hon. and gallant Gentleman will go to his constituents and say, "Give me a public dinner, or, at any rate, give me a public testimonial; I am the man who wanted to abolish the Clause which gives the preference to British seamen"! I should be interested to know what would happen. At any rate, if he does go with that request, he will probably receive a reception! I am reminding the House, possibly of what those who followed the Bill are well aware; but may I ask what has been introduced into this Bill by Amendments in Committee and on the Report stage? One Amendment was introduced providing that no alien shall be admissible for employment in the Civil Service. It was said at the time of the production that there was some old provision in the Act of Settlement that covered this point. It is doubtful. Be that as it may, this Bill provides in plain language which no one j can misunderstand that no alien shall be employed in our Civil Service in opposition ! to and in competition with a British subject. That Clause, again, my hon. and gallant Friend wishes to remove.

There is another interesting Clause. We all know that since the War there has been a very great rush on the part of the alien to change their German and other names. I dare say it was to their advantage. It certainly was not to ours, nor was it an advantage to the people of this country to have Germans hiding, disguising and camouflaging themselves under some high-sounding British name or title. This Bill provides—and properly I think—that no alien shall be allowed to change his name from that which he used before August, 1914, and if he has been allowed to remain in this country that he should trade as Schmidt or Schumann or whatever his name is, and not deceive the British public by calling himself Plan-taganet or Tudor! So much for these things in general that have been introduced into the Bill. For my part I regret a Clause proposed in Committee was rejected, which was to limit the number of aliens who should be employed in hotels and restaurants, and saying there might be a certain percentage and no more. I confess, for my own part, that when I go into an hotel and am addressed by a person in diabolically German English and asked whether I will have this that or the other, I feel very much inclined to go into a much humbler place and get my dinner for 1s.— if that be possible—rather than do business with these aliens who come over here and are employed in places where British labour could very well be employed. However, that proposed Clause was rejected. I very much regret it. Possibly the Home Secretary may in another place find it possible to introduce such a Clause which, if not applicable to all industries, would be applicable to places such as hotels, restaurants and so on, where at present there is an undue proportion of alien people employed. So much for aliens generally.

Let me say one or two words, very shortly, about enemy aliens. There are three or four Clauses in the Bill directed exclusively at former enemy aliens. Some people in this House think, I believe, that we ought to make no difference whatsoever between the Frenchman and our other Allies who fought gallantly with us, and the Germans who forget against us and used every brutality and atrocity that the human mind was capable of inventing. I do not agree. I think that for some time to come it will be impossible to forget what the Germans have done in this War. The time may come when the Germans may be forgiven. That time is not yet. When they have carried out the provisions of the Peace Treaty—which at present they show very little desire to carry out—when they have replaced the devastated areas of Belgium and France, and carried out their obligations as to reparation to us, and the rest of the Allies under the Peace Treaty; when they have withdrawn their disturbing influences from unhappy and distressed Russia, and when they have shown some signs of repentance and change of mind and character, then may be the time that we may forgot what they have done, and be prepared to treat them on the same basis as other aliens. That time has not yet come. So far as I can see, there is no immediate sign of it. Until it does come, I think the House of Commons were well-advised in introducing into this Bill some Clauses dealing specially with enemy aliens, as opposed to other classes of aliens. I need not recapitulate the whole of these Clauses, but, in the first place, there is a Clause for the deportation of former enemy aliens, subject to certain exemptions. This is exceedingly mild. Some people in Committee thought that these provisions were too much so. There is another Clause that provides that for three years any person, a German or other enemy alien, should not be allowed to return here, except for special reasons, and where the Home Secretary thinks fit to give permission. Does anybody say that is wrong, except the hon. Gentlemen sitting on the Front Opposition Bench, who are so desirous of having foreign agents, or desirous of having alien pilots, alien masters, and alien engineers? Is there anyone except that hon. and gallant Gentleman, and those who think with him, who desire to have the Germans who betrayed their trust, abused our hospitality, acted as spies, and ill-treated our prisoners of war.

There was another very important Clause introduced into the Bill by the Home Secretary himself, which provided that for a certain period, at any rate— and I hope it will be for a longer rather than a shorter period—no former enemy alien shall hold land, any interest in a key industry, or shares in companies owning British ships in this country. We know, apart from the atrocities of the War, what the Germans did prior to the War in the way of peaceful penetration in this and other countries. We know how in certain foreign countries these people bitterly betrayed the country, and we know the position in this matter in our own Dominions. In Australia, for instance, they practically controlled some of the great industries, and had hold of the speller and so on. We know all this. We know how the Australian Government had to introduce special legislation to deal with the matter, and regain control of these industries. We know something about the peaceful penetration of the Germans in this country. We know that some important industries were carried on not by British labour or British enterprise, but in the interests of German enterprise by German labour. Many of us, even after the atrocities of this War are forgotten, desire that such a state of things shall not arise again here, and, in spite of protests by the hon. and gallant Gentleman and his Friends, I think the great majority of the people have a similar desire and a similar determination. This Bill has emerged from the Committee and Report stages a far better Bill than it went into them. That has proved the fact that Members here are determined to restore Parliament to its old supremacy in the way of carrying out such reforms as it desires. I thank the Government for not having impeded us in this House in carrying out our great duties. I believe that not only the majority, but the vast majority of Members of this House, and the immense majority of the country, will thank Parliament for having carried this Bill through, as I believe it will be carried through, and passed into law before many days are gone.

We have had a long discussion, and so far as the Bill has been attacked there is really not a great deal to which to reply. The Amendment speaks for itself. It admits that there must be the fullest powers for dealing with dangerous and undesirable aliens. The Bill satisfies that. The Amendment goes on to suggest that the Bill in some way may check the growth of our overseas trade, clog that free intercourse with foreign nations by which in our art, science, literature, and religion this country has greatly gained, impair the British tradition of right of asylum, form an obstacle to international good will, and imperil in some way, and interfere with, the work of the League of Nations. I am bound to say I followed the speech of ray hon. and gallant Friend with great care, as I have done the other speeches, but I have had no Intimation as to what particular part of the Bill it was which would have the grievous effects suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend, My hon. and gallant Friend gave a long list of aliens who came here whom he said had done most valuable work and had been extremely useful to this country, but if he had shown half the industry he has shown in getting together those names in searching through the files of the criminal records of this country he would have found quite a hundred alien criminals, including murderers and burglars, for every one he has named. The hon. and gallant Member stated that none of those aliens could have come to this country if this Bill had been in force. Why not? There is not a single provision which prevents any alien coming here if he is a decent and respectable person, It is no good taking the Clauses which do not deal with aliens in general but with former enemy aliens. It will not do to take those Clauses and pretend that they apply to everybody. The provisions with regard to aliens as a whole are no more severe than those in other countries. You cannot have restrictions of this kind without some degree of inconvenience. We have to put up with such restrictions in other countries. The hon. and gallant Gentleman talked of reprisals. What reprisals could any other country inflict upon us which they are not already preparing!

Does the right hon. Gentleman really suggest that the Turkish Government will pass an Act to deport all Englishmen from Turkey?

They will be perfectly entitled to do it, and I have no doubt they may do so, or they May take the same steps we are taking and provide that only those should be deported who ought to be deported. The provisions with regard to the deportation of former enemy aliens are as wide in their discretionary power as they can possibly be. The category of former enemy aliens has only to come within one of those categories, and then it rests upon those who deport them to satisfy the Committee of some good reason why they should be allowed to stay here. There is the widest discretion, and who could blame Turkey if she passes a law of a similar character?

My hon. and gallant Friend is making the mistake which is often made of taking for granted that the Act will be administered by prize idiots, and then blaming the Act for it. That is a form of argument which is hardly one that ought to be inflicted very often on the House of Commons as a serious argument. We have been told that the right of asylum has gone. Why? If a perfectly respectable alien has a difference with the Bolshevik Government in Russia, will he be kept out of this country under this Bill? Not at all. You must temper the right of asylum by a discretion to keep out those who are undesirable. This Bill has two main objects. It aims at keeping out the undesirable alien for all time, no matter where he comes from, and then there is a very limited provision to keep out former enemy aliens until we can reconsider the question and see how far it is possible to let him come back in the future. This measure is directed for a limited time against the former enemy aliens and for all time against the undesirable alien.

I do not know that there is much more I can say, but I hope the House will carry the Third Reading of this Bill. It has been altered in form, I quite agree, and it restores to Parliament the power of controlling its own legislation instead of trusting to Orders in Council. The spirit of the Bill, however, is practically as it was brought in originally. There is no difference in principle and the only difference is one of method, and that difference has been so adjusted that Parliament has re-established its right over legislation, and Parliament is fully entitled to do that. I ask the House to give this Bill a Third Reading and allow this measure to be passed into law.

Will the right hon. Gentleman state what power is taken to replace the Appeal Tribunal which this Bill destroys?

The Bill sets up such a Committee, and I am taking steps to get together the personnel of that Committee.

Having regard to the efforts which some of us made during the Report stage, I think I am entitled to say a few words on the Third Reading. I congratulate the Home Secretary upon his speech, and the desire he has expressed that this Bill should be passed into law as speedily as possible. There are some hon. Members who always seem ready to advocate the cause of every country but their own and to defend the subjects of every country but their own, and they adopt the idea that to treat our own, fellow citizens better than foreigners is a heinous crime. I ask, can they show me any country in Europe which at this moment has not already passed legislation of this sort to protect themselves against those whom they do not desire to enter into their country? I have seen a communication from the Foreign Office which comes from the Embassy at Washington stating that it is the intention of the American Government to introduce to Congress and pass through the House of Representatives a Bill giving them power to deport alien enemies of various categories who have been interned during the War, for whose deportation no power at present exists. The Minister for Brazil has made a communication of a somewhat similar character.

We have substantially every other country passing legislation to protect themselves against persons whom they consider are undesirables, and why should we not have a similar provision upon our Statute Book. With reference to the statistics which have been quoted by the hon. Member for Whitechapel (Mr. Kiley) all I can say is that I have seen statistics for the year 1914 which certainly do not support his theory, and I think I can safely say that the criminal statistics with regard to aliens have enormously increased. Those hon. Members who have read the instructive Return which was published by the Committee which dealt with this subject in 1903 will see that they were unanimously of opinion that the alien population in this country was a great danger, not only to our own population, but to the State. They found it was a population that was exclusive, and, as hon. Members know, those districts in which they lived have entirely changed. Surely it is time that this House asserted itself in order to prevent this danger by passing legislation of this kind.

Amendment negatived.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Irish Land (Provision For Sailors And Soldiers) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

The Government has recognised, both in England and in Scotland, that it owes a debt of gratitude to the men who have served both on the sea, on land and in the air, and it is my duty as Minister responsible for Ireland to recognise that fact so far as those Irishmen are concerned who volunteered for service during the War. It is well to remember, in dealing with this question, so far as Ireland is concerned, that Conscription was not applied to Ireland, and that those men who endured the dangers and rigours of the campaign for several years were men who took upon themselves this danger voluntarily. It is also to be remembered that, while in England and Scotland the people were almost unanimous in supporting the recruiting campaign, in Ireland the position of affairs in a great part of the country was entirely different.

These men voluntarily enlisted often when a violent campaign against enlistment was raging. They were gallant fellows who faced opposition at home as well as the danger of the field, and in far too many cases they have returned to be received, not with pride, but to endure obloquy which should have been the fate of traitors alone. I regret also to say that in a great many cases employment, and even a place to lay their heads, has been denied them. The Government has attempted in every way possible to alleviate their condition. They have spent a very large sum of money in providing employment for these men and in making them as comfortable as circumstances would allow. Along with his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland I have seen a great many of these ex-Service men, and I was agreeably surprised to find that they were very anxious to be settled upon the land for which they fought. As the House will remember, in 1907 the Evicted Tenants Act was passed for Ireland. I think that the Bill I am now submitting to the House is an improvement on the principle of that Bill because, if I remember rightly, that Bill was described popularly as a Bill which was providing land for the wounded soldiers of the Land Campaign. This Bill is, I trust, a generous attempt to give to those Irishmen who fought for their country facilities to settle on the land.

The one test in this Bill is the test of service. The second important point is that there is a direct transaction by the ex-Service man, not with the local council, district or otherwise, but with the Government, or a Department of the Government. Applicants for land in Ireland may be divided into two classes. There is, first, the applicant who is anxious for the future of his life to devote his whole time to agriculture, and, in the second place, there is the applicant not desirous of devoting his whole time to agriculture but anxious to employ himself in another industry, while at the same time wishing to have an allotment with security of tenure and a house in which to live. During the War, while recruiting was going on, recruiting officers met with a great deal of trouble, because many of the men who wished to join were afraid that if they had left their native country to fight in France or Flanders some Government Department would meanwhile hand over such un-tenanted land as might be at their disposal to somebody else not so patriotic. It is as well to state here that this danger was never really present. Little was done for dividing up untenanted lands in Ireland during the War by either the Congested Districts Board or by the Estates Commissioners. Those two bodies have had unfortunately placed upon them statutory limitations with regard to the distribution of land, and the main principle of the Bill which I now submit to the House is to get rid of those statutory limitations, j and to give to the soldier and sailor who has served priority for any untenanted lands which these two Boards have got at their disposal.

I am going to deal with the provisions of the Bill presently. These two Boards will deal with men who intend for the rest of their lives to devote themselves to agriculture, and I am glad to say that 1,700 ex-Service men have already applied for land under these two Boards. I hope that very soon they will get the laud which they desire. With regard to the second class of case, the applicant who is anxious to devote himself to industry arid at the same time to have an allotment with a house in which to live, I would remark that, as the House knows very well, one of the greatest Irish land reforms ever passed was the Irish Labourers Act, which has done an enormous amount to better the condition of the agricultural labourers, and to give them houses at a cheaper rate than can be obtained by any other agricultural labourers in the world. It is a satisfactory fact that in this Bill I propose to extend the Labourers Act to ex-Service men, and I am proposing under this Bill to give those men every facility to procure for themselves not an allotment of one acre but art allotment of two acres with a house in which to live. Under the old Labourers Act the allotment was restricted to one acre, but I think, in view of the special circumstances of these cases, and of the meritorious service which these men have rendered to their country and the Empire, the House will agree that an extension of another acre as the full limit is a quite proper extension, and will be acceptable to all those who are interested in the welfare of these men, while the Estates Commissioners and the Congested Districts Board will look after the applicant who is anxious to have a holding for his permanent employment. I have asked the Local Government Board to look after the applicant who desires only an allotment and a house. The Local Government Board have done excellent work in connection with the Labourers' Act, and I am quite convinced it would mean greater expedition to have a central Department such as the Irish Local Government Board dealing with this matter. I hope the House will agree that this plan is much better, much safer, and much more valuable than one under which the ex-Service men would be at the beck and call of or under the influence of local councils.

I should like, if I may, to deal with the provisions of the Bill very shortly. I will only refer to the most important points: the remainder are easily understood. The first point to which I wish to draw the attention of the House is contained in paragraph (b) Sub-section (2) of Clause 1, which enables the Lord Lieutenant to give priority by special Regulations—and this, I believe, is the point my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir K Carson) asked about just now—in providing for the sale of land to the Land Commission by the Congested Districts Board if that body has land suitable for the purposes of the Bill, in order that it may be made speedily available. It also enables the Lord Lieutenant to-transfer untenanted hind from the Board to the Land Commission after consultation with the Congested Districts Board, who are responsible for the working of the Land Purchase Acts in congested districts. Paragraph (b) empowers the Lord Lieutenant, after consultation with the Congested Districts Board, to authorise the sale and transfer of land to the Land Commission on such terms as may be agreed upon or settled by the Lord Lieutenant in default of agreement. As to paragraph (c) under this category comes land which is not vested in the Board and is not in the process of sale under the Acts. This paragraph enables the Lord Lieutenant to authorise the Land Commission to purchase any such land whether situated in congested districts or elsewhere, the provisions of the Land Purchase Acts with respect to congested estates to apply in such cases. The next important point to which I will refer the House is Sub-section (3). As hon. Members from Ireland will know, Section 53 of the Irish Land Act, 1909, prohibits the Land Commission from purchasing land in any congested district without the consent of the Board, and I am proposing in this Sub-section to remove this prohibition and to allow purchases to go on under the authority of the Lord Lieutenant.

The next important point in the Bill is contained in Clause 2, which contains restrictions on the alienation of holdings or stock provided under the Act. The Government desire to be very generous in its assistance to these men, and in view of that fact we must lay down certain restrictions with regard to the alienation of holdings or stock of any sort or kind. The object of a provision of this nature is twofold. First, it will preclude men applying for land with the object of selling it as soon as they get it without working it for themselves, and, secondly, it will ensure that a man will have a fair start and that the laud and equipment provided by the State will go to the man himself and not be diverted from him to satisfy the claims of any antecedent creditors. I will not deal with finance, as I shall have later on to introduce a Financial Resolution upon which I can discuss that aspect of the Bill.

But I now come to Clause 4 of the Bill, the object of which is to enable cottages and plots to be provided for ex-Service men under the machinery of the Labourers (Ireland) Act. It is proposed by this Clause to hand over the control of this particular side of the Bill to the Local Government Board. This, as a matter of fact, has been done both in the English and the Scottish Bills. There are therefore precedents for the proposal, and I think that in view of the way in which the Labourers Act has been administered in the past by the Local Government Board, it is peculiarly appropriate that this part of the Act should continue to be worked by that Board. There is another small point which, in my opinion, ii of some importance. In Sub-section (4) paragraph (d) the power of acquiring land is not to be exercised by the Board after the expiration of two years from the passing of this Act. This is the limitation in the Scottish Bill. I think two years is a very appropriate time, and in view of the fact that these ex-Service men have been apprised of the fact that such a measure is being introduced for their benefit, I believe they will be ready and prepared to come under the scheme Therefore I hope the House will agree that the limit of two years is quite reasonable. With regard to Sub-section (5) this enables the Local Government Board to dispose of any cottage or plot which is no longer required for an ex-Service man. Sub-section (7) allows the expenses which would be incurred in any of its transactions by the Local Government Board to be paid not locally but out of sums voted by Parliament.

Clause 5 gives power to the Department to promote co-operation in connection with holdings or plots or gardens provided under the Act. I look forward myself to seeing large colonies of these soldiers scattered all over Ireland, and I think it will be of very great, value to them to have the Board of Agriculture and Technical Instruction at their disposal. Some of these men may know nothing at all about agriculture, but they may desire to be on the land and our proposal is to give them the tuition and experience which the Technical Instruction side of the Board is able to afford. We also wish to help them with their co-operation and to give them every possible assistance in order that the products of their land should be sent to the best possible markets in the shortest possible time. I also look at the establishment of these colonies from the social point of view. Whatever our feelings may be about Ireland, it is true that these men have had since their return in many parts of the country a very difficult time. Their association together in a colony of this kind will not only be of material value to them, but will afford them a great amount of coherent sympathy and protection. The only other point I need deal with at this stage is contained in Clause G, It is a very simple point. In the Sailors and Soldiers (Gifts for Land Settlement) Act, 1916, there was a Section making it possible for certain boards to accept gifts of land for soldiers. Under this Clause the Land Commission and the Local Government Board are given the same powers of accepting and administering gifts of land for these purposes as the Department under the earlier Act. It is quite obvious that the Land Commission, which, in the main, will look after the interests of ex-Service men under this Bill, will be the most appropriate body to administer such gifts as may be made for the benefit of these ex-Service men. I do not think I have missed any important point of the Bill, but I shall be most happy to answer any criticisms which may arise in the course of the Debate. In conclusion, I may say that, in view of the great services which these gallant men have rendered in the most difficult circumstances, I have great pleasure in submitting this Bill to the House, because I believe it will be a valuable one.

It is not my intention to delay this Bill for a moment by offering any minute criticisms upon it. I am sure that the men from Ireland who have served their country in the circumstances indicated by my right hon. Friend will be extremely grateful to him not only for the Bill itself, but for the manner in which he has introduced it, showing as he does every sympathy for the difficulties which they are under in a country like; Ireland. What he says is perfectly true; in many parts of Ireland these men, after serving their country, when they come home are looked upon not as heroes or as men who have done something to the credit of the country, but as men who have committed some sort of crime against society in Ireland. It is the duty of this House to take care that such men receives specially considerate treatment from this country and from this House.

My only anxiety regarding the Bill is as to its administration. Everything will depend upon its administration. The enactments will be very good, but I hope they will not be dead letters. Take, first, the question of planting these soldiers on untenanted land. A very large discretion is given to the Land Commission. I am not going to say anything against the Estates Commissioners in Ireland, whom I believe to be honourable men, but it is perfectly clear that everything will depend upon them—first, as to how, and, secondly, as to how quickly this work is carried out. The quick working of the Bill is everything. These men are going on from day to day, some of them in great difficulties, and it is no use telling them, "Your turn will come in two, three, four, or five years." They want the quickest possible working of this Bill. I am sure my right hon. Friend will do everything in his power to set up such machinery as will enable the Bill to be carried out quickly.

I desire to say one word as regards Clause 4. I am inclined to think that, at all events in the North of Ireland, Clause 4 will be the Clause most availed of, because in those parts of Ireland there is a great industrial population. Clause 4 is probably the most valuable part of the Bill; at least, I look upon it as such. But I look with some misgiving at the phrasing of the Clause. I am not putting this forward as a carping criticism, because I want to see the Bill made a reality. In the first place, the Local Government Board are not bound to make or carry out any scheme. All that the Clause does is to give them power to make and carry out schemes for the provision of cottages. Everything will depend on the activities of the Local Government Board. I am all the more anxious about the matter when I find the limitation, to which my right hon. Friend has referred, that
"The power of acquiring land shall not be exercised by the Board after the expiration of two years from the passing of this Act."
It is absolutely necessary, in my opinion, that there should be some provision in the Bill which would demonstrate to the Local Government Board that it is their duty to meet the whole requirements of these men within the two years which are set down as the limit under the Bill. Again, with the two years' limit. I also find that the schemes are only to be carried out to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Treasury. Of course, there has to be a Treasury limitation put in, but in the present state of public finance, and with the limitation of two years for creating these colonies—of which I entirely approve, and of which my right hon. Friend has spoken—I have grave fears that the Treasury, acting in co-operation with the Local Government Board, may be compelled to defer from time to time applications that are put forward for giving cottages and ground to these men, and that you may not have the schemes fulfilled within the two years. I only put these matters forward as showing that the Bill, if it is to become a reality, will require keen and active administration on the part of the officials to whom we entrust it. I am glad we are getting the Bill. I feel grateful to the Government and to my right hon. Friend, because I know he has been pressing it. I do not know of anything that will do more good as regards these men, or give them more confidence, than the fact that their services are being recognised by such a Bill as this being brought before the House of Commons. My only desire is that the-Bill should pass at the earliest possible moment, and I am sure that my hon. Friends who are associated with me in the Irish representation will not attempt in the slightest degree to do anything that will prevent the Bill becoming law as soon as that is possible.

Like my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) I rise merely to offer one or two comments on this Bill which have occurred to mo since I had an opportunity of looking at it. This Bill has been introduced after a considerable lapse of time. It is a Bill which has been looked forward to by ex-Service men in Ireland with very great hopes, because its introduction was founded originally upon a promise which, the House may remember was given by the Lord Lieutenant in a. Proclamation in May, 1918, when he was attempting to raise 50,000 recruits for the Army shortly after the Irish conscription issue became a dead letter. In that Proclamation he said that the men who came forward to fight for their Motherland were entitled to a share in all that the Motherland had got, and that steps were being taken to provide them with land. Ever since that Proclamation was issued the ex-Service men in Ireland have been anxiously looking forward to the introduction of this Bill. I want to ask the Chief Secretary—I hope he will make it quite clear—whether this Bill is intended in any way to give priority to those who came forward as the result of that Proclamation? I do not suppose it is for one moment.

It would be most unjust if any section of ex-Service men who came forward in 1918 were given any priority. It seems to me there must be some preference and priority, because I do not suppose there is enough land for every ex-Service man to get some. If that be so, on what basis is that preference to be given? Are the men who enlisted first to get the land first, and under what system is the Local Government Board, who are administering this Bill, to decide to whom land is to be given of the many applicants who come forward, and to whom land is to be refused? Again, I do not know whether the Chief Secretary has estimated the number of men who will apply for land of this description. He has told us that 1,700 have applied. I wonder if he means that 1,700 have applied for land in the sense of the land being economic holdings?

In the Debates on the former Bills last Session, the then Chief Secretary, now the Home Secretary, estimated that there would be sufficient land in the hands of the Land Commission and the Congested Districts Board to supply economic holdings for 3,000 men. I hope that is still the fact. The main difficulty, of course, with regard to a Bill of this kind is the question of obtaining sufficient land for satisfying the demand which will undoubtedly be made. Clause 4, to which my right hon. Friend referred, introduces a now element as compared with the Bill which was before the House last Session. My right hon. Friend referred to the limitation of the period during which land may be acquired for this purpose to two years. I agree with him that it would be very unsafe to allow that limit to stand. The Bill says:

"The power of acquiring land shall not be exercised by the Board after the expiration of two years from the passing of this Act."
You may get a situation such as this. That there will be large numbers of applicants for this land unsatisfied, because of the difficulty of suddenly obtaining sufficient land to satisfy them. Then, apparently, after two years the Local Government Board may purchase no further land.

May I assist my hon. and gallant Friend, because this is a very important point? I am assured by my advisers that there is sufficient land.

I am extremely glad to hear that, because it was one of the points which occurred to me.

6.0 P.M.

These were the few criticisms I wished to offer, and I am very glad to see that the Chief Secretary has practically been able satisfactorily to explain the difficulties which presented themselves to me as being likely to occur in the administration of the Bill. I welcome its introduction most heartily, and I hope that, as a result of it, these gallant Service men, who came forward in Ireland, often in face of the greatest difficulties and of hostility and danger, will be able to live on the land, whether as agriculturists or as allotment-holders, and will be a credit to themselves and to this country.

I rise to give a genuine welcome to the Bill which I conceive to be a very liberal and broad attempt to recognise what ape the real calls that these men have on us as a nation. They came forward to help us in the time of our trouble, and I feel that it is certainly up to one Englishman in this House to say something about the appreciation that we have for what they have done for us during the War. It has struck me that there may be some small difficulty in regard to the two years' limit. There may be a considerable number of soldiers who joined up late in the War, especially the younger ones, who at the end of two years might not be demobilised and might not have had a chance of coming in under the Bill. I should like to see some provision brought in in Committee to make it quite certain that these individuals on their return may have the same privileges as are extended to the other individuals under the Bill. I should like to emphasise the absolute necessity in some districts for endeavouring to place these men in close proximity to one another. It is essential for their own safety. That is a point which we hope will become less necessary in the immediate future, and I feel that if we continue to govern Ireland that will be the case. It is also essential from a purely agricultural point of view. The greater facilities you can give these men for co-operation and combination in marketing their stuff the better chance you have of making a scheme of this sort a real success, and for that reason I should like to have it laid down very clearly that it is the duty of those who administer the Bill to see that these settlements are made in considerable numbers and close to each other. I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for bringing in the Kill because I believe it is a real attempt to carry out our obligations to these men.

As one of the volunteers who have been referred to, I should like to thank the right hon. Gentleman, on behalf of my comrades, for this effort to give them a stake in Ireland. It is a little bit belated, but I think it is a case of better late than not at all. There are one or two points I should like to bring under his notice, so that he may be thinking of them while the Bill is passing through. I should like him to keep the expression "any men" in Clause 1 before him. In official language we refer to officers and men. I do not know whether it is the Chief Secretary's idea to limit it to men only?

I mentioned that for the reason that many men, through their ability as soldiers, have been granted commissions, and it is only right that those men, who were taken from very different positions perhaps in civil life before the War, in going back to those positions should also have this opportunity. I am glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that it affects everyone. The Chief Secretary referred to the difficulties which some men had in volunteering in various parts of Ireland, and also to their reception when they came home. I hope some opportunity will be given for the men to select where their particular allotments may be. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will keep before him the fact that these men are not in a position to pay very high rents for their houses. I hope the rents will not be chargeable in accordance with the expenditure incurred, because, as far as I can see from the Bill, and also from the prices of materials, considerable cost will be involved in the erection of these cottages and houses. I hope those who have an opportunity of taking these allotments and houses will be charged a rent which will be economical to them.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a, second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Nurses Registration (No 2) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move. "That the Bill be now read a second time."

This Bill deals with a subject which has been before the House for very many years in a sporadic way, and has often been the subject of private Members' Bills, which have shared the usual vicissitudes of those measures, and. unfortunately, at different times its course has been a good deal interrupted, and sometimes, perhaps, made difficult, by various controversies which have arisen around this subject amongst different persons interested in it. It is one of our purposes to improve the condition of the nursing services through our the country, and there are few matters more important to the well-being and the health of sick people and the nurture and care of young children than an additional and better provision of well-qualified nurses. It is essential, as a first step to placing these services upon a proper basis, that we should know who those nurses are. Therefore, the provision of a register, properly drawn up, of those who are entitled to be registered is the first condition to an extensive improvement in the nursing services. Also, I hope it will indirectly do a great deal to improve the nurse's salary, because, I am sorry to say, that the payments which have boon made to nurses have often been of a very discreditable kind—much loss than the wages of an ordinary cook or kitchenmaid—and it is thoroughly discreditable that it should be so. At the same time, their training is exceedingly arduous, their hours are very long, and, I believe, arising out of this—although the Bill does not deal with their conditions of employment—we shall take the first essential step to put this great and important profession upon a proper basis.

This Bill is limited to the compilation of a register and to the setting up of the necessary authority to compile the register, and to prescribe the conditions necessary for admission to it. I think we should not have arrived at this stage—at any rate at this juncture—had it not been for the services which have been rendered to this cause by the Bill introduced earlier in the Session by the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Major Barnett), who brought the matter to a head. In the course of the discussions on his Bill and on another conflicting Bill which was introduced into the House of Lords it was quite, obvious that a number of controversies of a subordinate character needed to be settled outside before there was real hope of getting a measure through this House. We are not competent to settle here controversies as to the representation of this or that body. They are certainly not appropriate topics for discussion here or in the Committee Room upstairs. It therefore was agreed that if, after discussion with the different parties interested in this, and with all the responsible bodies, a common measure of agreement could be arrived at, I would undertake to introduce a measure to set up a register. After several meetings, which have been held in the most friendly spirit, a common measure of agreement has been arrived at, and is embodied in this Bill.

In the first place, it sets up a Council whose business it is to form a register, and it is provided that there shall be various parts of the register—a general section, a register of male nurses, children's nurses, mental nurses, and it may be others—and this Council is authorised to draw up rules relating to various subjects, which are subject to the approval of the Minister of Health. When they are made, they will be laid before Parliament, as prescribed by Sub-section (4) of Clause 3. The House will have cognisance of them before they become effective. One of the chief reasons for this provision is contained in paragraph (c). Sub-section (2) of Clause 3. The House has always taken the view, and, I am sure, rightly, that when a new register is set up we must safeguard the interests of persons who are in bonâ-fide practice in the profession, so as to secure that they have a proper chance of being registered upon that register, notwithstanding that they may not have complied with all the conditions of training that may hereafter be prescribed. That has been the case in all instances. It is provided that within a period of two years after the date on which the rules are made, any person may be admitted to the register on producing evidence that they are of good character, of prescribed age, and for at least three years before the 1st day of November, l919, were;bonâ-fide engaged in practice as nurses in attendance upon the sick. That means that a large body of women throughout the country who have been nursing faithfully for many years, but who may not have undergone all the highly-specialised training which may be thought desirable, or may be provided for hereafter, will be fully entitled to be entered upon the register. That, is a very important safeguard. The Council is given the necessary power to appoint officers and so forth.

There is no Financial Resolution required for this Bill. It is provided that all nurses should pay a fee of one guinea, and there is to be a fee of 2s. 6d. required annually for keeping the register alive. One of the chief difficulties of this kind of thing is that people move about or die or enter some other profession, and so the register ceases to be a live register. It is very necessary that some steps of a reasonable kind should be taken to keep it as nearly accurate as may be. It may happen, though I do not think the necessity will a-rise, that the income of the Council derived from this source will be insufficient to meet its expenses. I do not think that is likely to arise, but, by agreement with the Treasury, I am authorised to say that if and when any appreciable deficit should occur which could nut reasonably have been avoided, and could not be met by other expedients, such as drawing upon accumulated funds or a temporary advance from the Civil Contingencies Fund, the Treasury would be prepared to give favourable consideration to any proposal by me to ask Parliament to Vote a special Grant in aid of such deficiency. It is provided that in the event of any register being set up in Scotland or in any other part of the United Kingdom, the persons thereon entered shall be entitled to be entered on the English and Welsh register. It is also provided that persons who meet the necessary requirements as to training in any part of the British Dominions shall be entitled to be entered upon the register. There are various provisions safeguarding removals from the register, and giving an appeal to the High Court in regard to any alleged unfair removals, and giving an appeal to the Minister of Health in regard to the refusal of the Council to approve any institution for training for the purposes of the rules provided under the Act.

The main difficulties which arose last year are dealt with in the schedule. The schedule deals with the constitution of the Council. It is very desirable that the Council should contain a considerable element of nurses actually engaged in the practice of nursing. It is provided that the first council shall consist of twenty-five persons. We have included in this the decision which was arrived at in the discussion in. Committee last summer, and it is provided that sixteen persons who are or have at some time been nurses actually engaged in rendering services in connection with the nursing of the sick shall be appointed by the Minister of Health, who is to consult the two main bodies which have been interested in this question, also the nursing body which at the present time has a Royal Charter, and such other bodies as it may be found desirable to consult. The House will remember that the rock upon which the other Bills split was the dispute which arose on the point as to how the Council was to be set up. It is to be set up in the manner here proposed in the schedule after consultation, in order to get the register into being. It is then prescribed that after the termination of the office of the first council—and it shall not hold office for longer than three years—the sixteen persons mentioned shall be elected by the nurses on the register, and they, together with nine persons appointed by the Privy Council, the Board of Education and the Minister of Health, will form a permanent Council in the manner prescribed in the Bill. In this way we have got over the difficult points of the controversy. I am sure that the more this Bill is examined the more the House will agree that it is the only way to deal effectively and fairly with the points that have hitherto been in dispute. It is essential as a first step to get the nursing profession on to a better and more national basis, and I cordially recommond this Bill to the House for a Second Reading.

I have the honour to represent in Parliament the great majority of nurses in Manchester, and in that capacity I should like to welcome this Bill. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his wisdom in recognising the necessity for the State registration of nurses, and also on his judgment in being able to reconcile so many warring elements among the nursing profession. The great merit of this reform is that it is a social reform which comes from inside the body affected and not from outside. The real framers of this measure are not the State or the State officials, but the pioneers in this cause among the nurses themselves. It is well to recognise that a debt of gratitude is due to those who have been pioneers of this movement for many years, and to recognise the very fruitful and brilliant propaganda by which the College of Nursing have brought this scheme within the range of practical politics within the last few years. While recognising the point of what the right hon. Gentleman said, that nurses who may not have had special training, but who are engaged in practice at the present time, should have the right to be placed upon the register, I hope that in the rules that are made enabling such persons to get on the register, care will be taken that they have had some experience and some considerable practice, arid that it will not be an illusory test, because if this register is to be a real register of nurses it must be a register on which it is an honour to have your name inscribed. If it is going to be an honour we do not want the standard which is adopted to be an illusory test, but we want a real test of merit and experience.

I should like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman in making the point in Clause 3 with regard to the uniform and badge to be worn by nurses who are on the register. I take it that that means that the nurses on the register will have the exclusive right to wear one certain type of uniform and badge. That is an element which must meet with success. It is a guarantee on the one side to the public that the nurses have had real training and real experience if they wear that uniform and that badge. To the profession itself it must be of very great value, because the possession of the uniform and the badge gives to those who wear them that sense of professional solidarity and that pride in the art which they practise, which he at the root of all corporate efficiency. There is one limitation in the Bill which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will see fit in time to do away with. That is, that as now drafted, the powers of the council are strictly limited, and its functions are more or less to prescribe rules of admission to the register and rules for striking names off the register. As the right hon. Gentleman said, there is nothing in the Bill which, in terms, gives the Council any jurisdiction over what are the dominating questions in the life of nurses—questions of pay and questions of hours. It would be a very great pity if this scheme, which is a great scheme of reform, is unaccompanied by any Clause which gives the Council potential jurisdiction over conditions of employment. There is no person in the world of less bargaining capacity than the nurse, and it has been an unhappy tendency in past times to exploit her economic weakness and inexperience. I hope that before this Bill passes into law it will not only fulfils the one useful purpose which it now fulfils, namely, of recognising the place which this profession occupies in the life of the country, but that it will do something more than that, that it will in the ordinary daily practice of the nurses' work be something in the nature of a great charter, which will guard them against the two great evils which overshadow the careers of so many women in this country, and particularly women in the nursing profession: first, the evil of overwork, and, secondly, the evil of underpayment.

As the promoter of the Nurses Registration (No. 1) Bill, I wish to say a few words in support of the Second Reading of this measure. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the promptitude with which he has kept his pledge to introduce a Government measure. I was a little sceptical when the pledge was given whether it would be fulfilled so soon. It was only given last July, and to-day we have this Bill brought forward; a great measure which will put the principle of the State registration of nurses on the Statute Book, As the sponsor of the No. 1 Bill I cannot say that this Bill is in every respect an improvement on my own proposals. I very much regret its limitation to England. When a measure, introduced by a private Member, which had got as far as the Report stage, provided a single register for the whole of the United Kingdom, one might have hoped that a Government measure would do the same, but I can imagine that what was possible for a private Member's Bill was not so easy for a Government Bill, in view of the fact that a Ministry of Health has been set up for Scotland and something tantamount is contemplated for Ireland. I hope and believe that, if this measure finds its way to the Statute Book, in the course of a few months we shall have a Scottish Registration Bill and an Irish Registration Bill as well.

My right hon. Friend referred to the rock on which the discussions on my Bill were wrecked—the question of the initial Nursing Council. As the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out, the difficulty is to choose the nurses who are to sit on the Council, because ex hypothesi we have no register, and cannot have an election by the nurses of those who are to represent them. My Bill endeavoured to solve that by giving rights of appointment to many societies and individuals. Here I can congratulate my right hon. Friend on having cut down the Council to reasonable dimensions. I think that twenty-five members is quite enough for such a body, but in attempting to create a Council by nomination from various nurses' societies we found we were continually increasing the number of the Council. We had gone up to forty-three, and I am not sure that we should not have gone up to forty-five. The difficulty was to get the respective societies to agree as to their respective rights of nomination to the Council. With the greatest courage my right hon. Friend has cut the Gordian knot. He has decided to nominate the nurses to the initial Council himself. I do not know which to admire more, the courage of my right hon. Friend or the skill with which he addressed himself to this problem. It is a courageous act, for my right hon. Friend will have to select the ladies to sit on this Council. No doubt he will do it very well, because he will do it in consultation with the societies, and any society that thinks itself entitled to be consulted has only got to say so. My hon. and gallant Friend opposite spoke of this measure having become a matter of practical politics owing to the exertions of a certain body to which he referred. I do not wish to introduce into this discussion any element of dissension, but the Central Committee for the State Registration of Nurses have been advocating State registration for over thirty years, in season and out of season, and it is a triumph for their principles, on which they are to be congratulated, to have the Minister of Health introducing the measure which is brought before us this afternoon. Nothing will please me better than to have this Bill with or without Amendment—I do not think it requires Amendment—passed into law.

As one who opposed the former Bill in the interest of the great majority of nurses, both in Committee upstairs and on the Report stage downstairs, I desire on my own behalf and also on behalf of the College of Nurses to give this Bill a very warm welcome. It is most satisfactory to find that the Minister of Health has been able in so short a time to fulfil the pledge which he gave, and which we nil expected him to fulfil, though we did not expect him to fulfil it in so short a time, and ROW that they have introduced it I hope that the Government will push forward this Bill with the least possible delay and give the nurses the thing which they have so long desired. But I desire to make perfectly clear that on the question of State registration we who opposed the former Bill have always taken up precisely the same attitude which we take up this evening. We also were always in favour of State registration of nurses. Certain statements have been made to the contrary; they are entirely unfounded. When the former Bill was introduced I said that we accepted the principle of State registration and everything depended on how the reasonable objections of a great number, I think I might almost say the majority, of nurses were met as to what support we could give to the precise Bill that was introduced. Everybody knows the result. I do not wish to travel over that ground to-night or to introduce any discordant element, but we found it impossible to support the Bill because we felt that we had a duty to the great body of nurses and that they were not getting fair play. But now we have another Bill and I think the Minister of Health has been exceedingly clever, because he bus been able to introduce a Bill which is acceptable to both sides. That is no mean achievement. He has seen representatives of both sides and ho has been able to produce what I think will prove to be a non-controversial measure. He has excised the breaking spot of the last Bill, which was the constitution of the Council, and has taken the selection of the provisional Council on his oven shoulders. Of course he is a very bold man to do that, but I do not think that any other course would have met the case, and I have not the least doubt that the decisions he will make will be received and abided by loyally by the great majority of nurses. I hope that the House will accept the Bill and that the Government will put it through without delay, and that those splended women will secure what they have long been asking for, namely, official recognition of their glorious profession.

I hope this Bill will become an Act as rapidly as possible. I have gone through it carefully, and see very little room for disagreement or amendment. In thinking as we all must do seriously over the past and present position of the nurses of Great Britain, it is impossible for anyone to estimate the loss to the nation owing to the absence of a status for one of the most valuable services or professions of which this country can boast. I feel that it is so interwoven with the Ministry of Health that it will become a very effective piece of machinery in the general health and development of the nation, and that it will give a status to the profession, and though there is an absence of any powers to the Council to deal with the question of professional fees, yet the mere fact of obtaining a status will lead the profession to become recognised as worthy of a greater financial return than that which it, unfortunately, gets at the present moment. One great good which I think will be brought about by this Bill is that it will attract to the profession many who at the moment hesitate, because they know of the small fees payable and of the weak bargaining powers that have been referred to, and of the shortness of the number in the profession to cope with the enormous amount of necessary work which its members are called upon to perform.

Having established a status for this profession, you will attract to it many young women who will devote all their future to it knowing that they have something to look forward to, and that they will be recognised. The very machinery itself that if, set up will give them that bargaining power that will enable them to secure much better remuneration than they obtain at the moment. I welcome this Bill also because it will help to remedy the lack of professional attendance on mentally deficient persons, the absence of professional nurses with due knowledge of the care of the health of children, the absence of a sufficient number of fully qualified maternity nurses. All these matters will under the Bill be kept in touch with the Ministry of Health, and we shall soon find a general improvement in the health of the people and the condition of the profession that will make us and the country thank the right hon. Gentleman for introducing a Bill, simple yet understandable in its language, flee from all those unnecessary phrases that too often find their way into Acts of Parliament, and in itself a great encouragement to this very important section of health administration. I was particularly pleased with the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman as to his provision to assure to the general nursing profession a Council which will be largely nominated by him, but shall not be representative of any particular class or organisation, but that the general body of working nurses shall have full and adequate representation. I do not think there is anyone qualified to assist the Minister of Health in establishing the permanent machinery better than would be found among working nurses, who come more in contact with everyday difficulties. I hope there will be no more Amendments to the Bill than are absolutely necessary. The people of the country and the nursing profession are asking that this great measure should become an Act of Parliament at the earliest date.

Most of the criticisms I have to make are really Committee points, and can be dealt with in Committee. I join with others in congratulating the Minister of Health on the introduction of this Bill and on escaping some difficulties by handing over to this primary Council the task of drawing up regulations. I think we should have an opportunity somehow or other of discussing the regulations for registration after they have been drawn up by this Council. I am very disappointed that this Bill is limited to England. I think that a great pity. It has probably arisen from the idea that there is a Health Board in the other two countries. This, however, is not a case of locality at all. We want to get a register of all the nurses in the United Kingdom; we do not want a Scottish, an Irish, and an English register. A further point is that you are having three examinations. You may have different standards. It is the evil of the medical profession. There are ever so many bodies, twenty, or thirty or more, granting degrees, each of which qualifies to register, and these degrees are by no means equal. Nurses should have exactly the same training and the same entrance examination in the whole Kingdom. I wish some method could be found by which this end could he attained.

As a medical man I would like to say how heartily I approve of this Bill. I have read it very carefully and I think it meets all the requirements of the profession. I agree with the remark that it is unfortunate it is not extended to the whole United Kingdom. I congratulate the Minister of Health on the strong position he has taken up in regard to the Council. The last Bill was lost through the unfortunate diversity of interests. This Bill requires very few Amendments, and I hope we shall not lose it over any small item.

I see the Secretary for Scotland is here. I understand that one of the chief criticisms against this Bill is that it does not apply to Scotland. I hope he will be able to assure us that a Scottish Bill is in a forward state of preparation, because we are keenly anxious for State registration of nurses in Scotland. With such an assurance there is no reason why Scottish Members should not give this Bill their blessing.

On behalf of the members on the Labour Benches I give a welcome to the Bill. I wish that wages and hours of employment and pensions had been taken into account in dealing with this matter. Nursing is a noble profession; but one of the most overworked. I know something of it. I know of the great sacrifices that many of these noble women have made for the children of the workers. Even lives have been given up for the sake of the children, and many nurses have been affected in after life by having contracted infectious diseases from their patients.

Perhaps I may intervene for a moment to answer the query put to me. I need hardly assure the House that we recognise fully in Scotland the importance of this subject. A Hill on lines similar to this is in an active state of preparation; it is already drafted, and I hope it will be possible to bring it before the House without any avoidable delay. With that assurance, I trust my Scottish colleagues will have no hesitation whatever in supporting the Minister of Health in this Bill.

7.0 P. M.

I want to couple with my congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman a request on behalf of the resident nurses who tend the poor in outlying country districts. The Cottage Benefit Nursing Association is, I believe, the only association which supplies these resident nurses, except in a certain number of maternity cases, and these nurses, in addition to the nursing they undertake, do with great loyalty the housework of the houses in which they are nursing, more especially if the woman of the house happens to be the patient. At the present moment under the organisation of this association they are given one year's training on enlistment, in the association's home at Edmonton, and are then sent to the branches on a three years' engagement. The training, as prescribed in this Bill, would be, I gather, for three years, and the point I want to raise is that for the purpose of this class of nurse the training cannot be, and ought not to be, for more than one year, for if the minimum of three years is insisted upon it will surely mean the trebling of subscriptions, many of which are paid by the inhabitants of cottages, although the lists may include subscriptions from wealthy people. Moreover, if a nurse is trained for three years, I fear that she would, perhaps, feel herself a little above going into a cottage and doing the housework, and, of course, in the scattered country districts it is absolutely imperative, if the woman in the cottage is the patient, that someone who is nursing her should be prepared to do the housework. This class of nurse at the moment is self-supporting. The voluntary contributions range from 3s. a year upwards. I am not asking the right hon. Gentleman for any representation on the Council, but I do seriously suggest that we might have, a fourth supplementary part added to the register so that separate rules could be made for this class of nurse. I am aware that I may seem to be pleading for a lower minimum standard of training, but the Bill, I submit, considers the status of nurses in this respect perhaps to the disadvantage of the patient. If the right hon. Gentleman says to me, "Why not leave them out of the Bill altogether?" then I reply, "If only fully-trained hospital nurses are to be registered, then no harm will be done to our nurses, but, as the Bill is drafted, other special classes without full training, such as children's nurses and mental nurses, are to be admitted on to a supplementary register, and the cottage nurses, who are doing equally useful work, will feel slighted if they are not given equal recognition." The result will be that you will get no more cottage nurses, or, at any rate, that there will be a deficiency. I would like to ask from what other source the right hon. Gentleman proposes to supply resident nurses for the poor in the outlying country districts?

I should like in one single word heartily to support this Bill so ably introduced by my right hon. Friend.

The right hon. Gentleman is to be heartily congratulated on the introduction of this Bill, but in my opinion, it does not take a sufficiently comprehensive and complete view of the situation as a whole. One of the very first duties of the Ministry of Health should be to arrange completely and fully the forces that it is going to utilise in its fight against ill-health and disease in this country. The Ministry of Health should bring itself into direct relationship with all groups of workers in that field—nurses, chemists, dentists, and doctors. Those four separate, distinct bodies ought in some form or other to be under some kind of benignant control exercised by the Ministry of Health. The Ministry of Health is recognised as having a position under this Bill, but it does not go far enough. The Ministry ought itself to be the registering body. The Ministry of Health has just taken over the duties of the Registrar-General, and I fail to see that there is anything more mysterious or difficult in registering a nurse, properly and truly qualified, by that branch of the Ministry than in registering a birth, death or marriage. I venture to suggest that is a function which is particularly cognate to a Ministry of Health. A special branch of the Registrar-General's Department would obviate the necessity for this roundabout establishment of a council, which will involve considerable expense of the costliness of the General Medical Council is any evidence of the cost of such bodies, I am perfectly sure that there is not a nurse in the Kingdom who would not be equally content to be registered within, the Ministry of Health as to be registered by a separate council which is only indirectly in relation with the Ministry.

There is one other point that I would like to put, and that is the care which we must exercise in the constitution of a body which is going to have more or less judicial power. Section 3 really gives this new Council judicial power, and I want to draw the attention of the House very seriously to the manner in which this extension of judicial power operates in the case of the General Medical Council. This Bill is drafted more or less on the Medical Act of 1858. It follows that precedent more closely than the Midwives Act, which erected a somewhat similar body. Those who follow the proceedings of the General Medical Council know—it is one of the saddest and most unseemly spectacles known to the whole judicial procedure of this country—that a man who has been convicted of an offence, of whatsoever nature, has to undergo what is practically a second trial at great cost, at much pain, and with undue publicity before this body, and to be defended by counsel in order to save his livelihood, and the whole sordid details are exposed once again in order that this body shall decide whether the man has been guilty of the infamous conduct alleged against him. There are three simple words in the Medical Act of 1858, "after due inquiry," upon which has been erected this extraordinary semi-judicial body. Due inquiry in 1858 has become this most terrible and costly procedure. It certainly gives the accused person an opportunity of defending himself, but I suggest that that defence could be given without all this undue publicity and harrowing circumstance. I do hope that we shall have nothing of the kind in connection with this Nursing Council. The procedure which is now adopted is contrary to all the principles of the British Constitution, and it is practically the absolute negation of the judicial principle that a man shall never be tried a second time for the same offence. We have advanced our social arrangements very much since 1858, and I certainly hope that nothing in this Act or in any rule or regulation will reproduce the spectacle which we witness in connection with the British Medical Council. There is a relationship established between this Nursing Council and the Ministry of Health, but there are three other bodies which ought to be brought into relationship, the General Medical Council, the Dental Council, and, above all, the Chemists. The State now is a contracting party with a large body of the chemists in the country, and they must bring the whole of these great forces which are essential to the well being and health of the people into some direct and controlling relationship, a relationship which in course of time shall become benignant, and which shall give the doctor, the nurse, the dentist, and the chemist a sense of sureness and which shall also be a deterrent to the person who is disposed to do wrong. If the present loose relationship is to go on and the Ministry of Health is to be a recreation of the National Health Insurance Commissioners and of the Local Government Board, if there is not going to be a wide view of what is before the Ministry, and if there is not going to be a linking up of its forces, then the Ministry will be a failure. That is the point that I wish to make: The necessity of establishing a direct relationship with the vital agencies which are now at the command of the Ministry of Health. This Bill foreshadows nothing of that kind. It leaves the Ministry of Health a select Department and makes it an appeal body against the doings of this Council. This Council is going to define everything with regard to the education, the standard of training, the method by which persons are going to be put on to the register, and the still more important matter as to how persons are to be removed from the register. Take, for instance, the question of a, judicial appeal. Cannot the Ministry of Health deal with the question whether a poor erring creature is to be taken off the register? There is the precedent of the National Health Insurance Act. There is power under that Act lo appoint a certain appellate body, and it would be perfectly simple, instead of referring these questions to a Council composed of comers and goers, to refer them to a judicial body of the right hon. Gentleman's own nomination within the four walls of the Ministry. This Bill has many good features, and I commend it heartily, but I do think that along these lines it might be very properly and wisely modified not only to the benefit of the Ministry but also of the nursing body and everybody working for the general well-being of the country.

While I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman upon bringing in this Bill, and especially for steering clear of the rocks that wrecked the other Bill, I must say that I am bitterly disappointed, he spoke of England, of Scotland, and of the Colonies, but the name of Ireland has never been mentioned by any of the speakers who have preceded me. I wish to get an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that a similar measure will be brought in for Ireland. He cannot surely expect that we shall loyally hasten this Bill through the House if Ireland is entirely ignored.

I do not quite understand, when the House is obviously going to rise at an early hour, why every Member who has risen to speak on this Bill should have thought it necessary to state that he. would not exceed two or three minutes in his remarks. As a matter of fact, I am only going to speak for two minutes, because I only wish to deal with one point. I was greatly impressed by what the hon. Member (Sir W. Cheyne) said in regard to the desirability of having a uniform system of qualification and one form of entry to the nursing profession. This is one of those quite exceptional cases in which uniform legislation for England and Scotland is very desirable. We have not heard from the Minister of Health or the Secretary for Scotland any reason why this Bill cannot be made applicable to the three countries, or, at any rate, to England and Scotland. I think the House ought to have some explanation on that point before they are asked to accept a limitation of the Bill to England alone. The inconvenience of three registers is so obvious and so great that I cannot imagine anyone ignoring it or wishing to encourage it unless there is some overmastering reason for doing so. We would not contemplate having a separate system for the medical profession in England and in Scotland and in Ireland, and why should we have a different rule in regard to nursing?

I am very sorry if I omitted to mention Ireland, but I thought I had done so. While I am not in a position to give a formal assurance, I know that the Irish Office has the in alter under consideration, and I think there is reason to expect that there will be a similar proposal in the case of Ireland. I would point out that when the Ministry of Health Act was introduced it was, in consequence of the teachings of which my hon. Friend (Sir H. Cowan) is an able and consistent exponent, split into different parts, including one for Scotland.

It was a separate Department. It is very desirable to consider the Scottish point of view as there are some differences which require careful consideration, and the Secretary for Scotland is looking into the matter. I think with the arrangements we have made for interchange of registers and no doubt there may be set up a common register, we have really met the point. I have gone into the matter with great care, and I think, on the whole, the way proposed is the simplest.

By leave of the House, may I say I cannot specify the date when the Bill will he introduced, but it will be introduced without any avoidable delay.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Land Settlement (Scotland) Money (No 2)

Considered in Committee.

[Commander EYRES-MONSELL. In the Chair.]

Resolved,

"That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for the acquisition of land for the purposes of small holdings, reclamation, and drainage, and other purposes relating to agriculture in Scotland, to amend the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911, and the enactments relating to allotments, and otherwise to facilitate land settlement in Scotland, of a further annual sum, during each of the ten years commencing on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty, not exceeding fifteen thousand pounds in any one year, to be placed at the disposal of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland in addition to and for the like purposes as the sums not exceeding one hundred and eighty-five thousand pounds specified in Section five of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Act, 1911."—[Mr. Munro.]

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 22nd October, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-three minutes after Seven o'clock.