House Of Commons
Tuesday, 28rd December, 1919,
The House met at Twelve of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.
Oral Answers To Questions
Russia
Prisoners Of War (Exchange Negotiations)
1.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state the present stage reached in the negotiations for the exchange of British prisoners in Soviet Russia; and whether arrangements have been made for the dispatch of food, clothing money, and medicines to the Rev. North, in Moscow, for the succour of these prisoners?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Gentleman to the statement made yesterday on this question.
Will the hon. Gentleman issue at an early date instructions concerning the dispatch of food and clothing?
Yes; I will take an opportunity of doing so at an early date.
Naval And Military Pensions And Grants
Delayed Decision
21.
asked the Pensions Minister whether he is aware that as yet no decision has been arrived at in the case of Alfred Ernest Goose, late No. 987, Royal Field Artillery, who made application for a pension on 26th August, 1918; and if he can explain the delay?
The delay in arriving at a decision in Mr. Goose's case has been due to the fact that he allowed such a long time to elapse between the date of his discharge and the date of his first application for pension. Mr. Goose appears to have been discharged on the 7th November, 1914, but, as he cannot produce a discharge certificate, it has not been practicable to ascertain definitely the cause of his discharge. The military authorities are also unable to state the cause of his discharge, and no evidence can be obtained in support of his statement that the disability in respect of which he is claiming pension was caused by exposure during military service. At this late date it is exceedingly difficult to obtain evidence to enable a decision to be arrived at, and it was arranged last month to place all the facts as ascertained before the medical authorities of the Ministry with the view of having the man examined by a medical board who will report as to the man's condition and as to whether it can be regarded as attributable to service. When that report comes to hand the case will be considered and the result notified to all concerned.
Applications Refused
22.
asked the Pensions Minister why a pension under Article 12 of the Warrant has been refused the widow of the late Mr. S. H. Wright., No. 96405, Royal Field Artillery, who was passed fit into the Service on 19th April, 1915, and who died in the Service of heart disease?
Mr. Wright died of fatty degeneration of the heart after a fortnight's military service. The case has been considered on several occasions but it has not been found possible to trace any connection between, the cause of death and the short period of service, and consequently pension under Article 11 cannot be awarded to the widow. It is open to Mrs. Wright to appeal against this decision to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal.
23.
asked the Pensions Minister if he will reconsider the case of Mr. Arthur Whitfield, late No. 108927, Royal Engineers, whose application for pension has been refused on the ground that his disability is neither due to nor aggravated by service; whether he is aware that Mr. Whitfield was a member of the Liverpool University Training College, which he entered in October, 1914, when he was medically examined and found to be perfectly sound; that Professor Glynne, a captain of the Royal Army Medical Corps, examined him at the time and certified that Mr. Whitfield did not suffer, and never had suffered, from any intestinal complaint; and whether in face of this he can abide by his decision?
Mr. Whitfield's appeal was heard by the Pensions Appeal Tribunal on 11th March, 1919, when he had every opportunity of stating his case, and the tribunal decided against his claim. In these circumstances he is not entitled to any grant beyond the gratuity of £20 awarded to him in August, 1917.
Warrant Telegraphists
36.
asked the Postmaster-General whether it has been decided that members of his staff who served as warrant telegraphists in the Navy during the War are entitled to the gratuity on discharge although they were in receipt of full civil pay; whether this decision has been communicated to all the men concerned; and whether the gratuity has been paid in all cases?
I have been asked to answer this question. The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and as regards the second and third parts, only one officer can be traced, from a list furnished by the Post. Office, as being concerned, and he has been paid the gratuity.
Medical Referees
24.
asked the Pensions Minister whether all doctors who served in the Army from the West Dean area of the Gloucestershire pensions area have been returned from the Army; if so, whether the appointment of medical referees of the area have been thrown open so that these men have had an opportunity of applying for the positions, and, if not, when does he propose to cancel the appointments at present held by doctors who have not served; and whether the men who have served will be given an opportunity of applying for the vacant positions?
The answer to the first and second part of this question is in the affirmative. With one or two exceptions, the medical referees in the West Dean area of Gloucestershire are now all ex-Service men.
Railway Strike (Food Conveyed By Naval Vessels)
33.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what numbers and types of naval vessels were employed during the railway strike for the conveyance of food?
The information asked for is as follows: 10 destroyers, 20 sweepers, 6 sloops, 16 drifters, and 28 trawlers.
Royal Dockyards (Merchant Shipbuilding) Report
34.
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is now in a position to make any statement in regard to the Government decision on Lord Colwyn's Report on the question of utilising Devonport Dock-yard or any part thereof for commercial purposes?
The recommendations of the Colwyn Committee included the construction of merchant ships in the Royal dockyards. The Admiralty are now making inquiries with a view to obtaining orders for such ships as the facilities of the dockyards will enable them to construct. The Committee also recommended that proposals for the utilisation of part of Devonport as a terminal port by shipping firms should be considered, and the Admiralty are prepared to receive any such proposals and give them most favourable consideration.
Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say the Admiralty are prepared to accede to proposals from ship owners or from corporations?
As regards the building of merchant ships the Admiralty are now making inquiry with a view to obtaining orders for such ships as the facilities of the dockyards will enable them to construct. As regards the utilisation of Devonport as a terminal port by shipping firms, the Admiralty are prepared to receive any such proposal and give it most favourable consideration?
Can the right hon Gentleman tell me anything about Portsmouth?
The recommendation of the Colwyn Committee included the construction of merchant ships in the Royal dockyards generally, if practicable.
Have the Admiralty received any protest from those engaged in private enterprise against the dockyards building merchant vessels?
Not so far as I am aware.
Government Vessels (Sale By Auction)
35.
asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether all Government vessels, small and large, that the Government have already sold, or intend to sell, have been, and are being, put up for auction through first-class shipping auctioneers?
The responsibility for the disposal of small non-seagoing commercial craft rests with the Ministry of Munitions, and of larger seagoing vessels suitable for commercial purposes with the Ministry of Shipping. The disposal of the remainder rests with the Admiralty, and the procedure which has been followed as a rule is that of advertisement and competitive tenders, although in some cases vessels have been put up for auction through auctioneers accustomed to the business.
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there are auctioneers specially concerned with this kind of business and that it is held amongst shipping people that very much better prices could be obtained?
I should be glad if the hon. and gallant Gentleman would give me any evidence as to that. I was careful to say that as regards the cases where naval ships are put up to auction they are put up through auctioneers accustomed to the business.
Automatic Telephone Exchange
37.
asked the Postmaster-General what has been the further experience of the working of the automatic telephone exchange; and when will the system be brought into general operation?
As I stated on the 19th November in reply to the hon. Member for North Kensington, a number of automatic exchanges have been established and others will be installed in places where in efficiency and economy they are likely to be superior to manual exchanges. But I regret to find from recent tenders that the prices at present asked by the manufacturers for automatic apparatus are extremely high and almost prohibitive.
Discharged Disabled Soldiers (Suicide)
43.
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a number of discharged disabled soldiers have committed suicide and left dependants in straitened circumstances; that the medical evidence affirms that the contributory causes of suicide in these cases arise from or are due to wounds received or illness contracted while on service, and that it has been decided that assistance cannot be given to the relatives by way of pensions, etc., because they are not covered by the terms of the Royal Warrant; and whether it can be arranged that all such cases will be brought to the notice of the administrators of the National Relief Fund for consideration, and that where found necessary help shall be given in relief of distress arising in connection with the War?
I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to questions on this subject by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions on the 18th of August and the 6th of November last. I have no doubt that such cases, if brought before the Committee of the National Relief Fund, will receive careful consideration.
Ironmoulders' Strike
45.
asked the Prime Minister whether any statement can be made with reference to the ironmoulders' strike; whether this strike is seriously interfering with the construction of railway wagons and better transit facilities for the people of the country generally; and whether the existence of this strike is having any material effect upon the cost of food and cost of living?
I have been asked to answer this question. I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour that there were conferences between the Engineering Employers' Federation and the three societies concerned throughout the whole of the 17th December. I have reason to believe that considerable progress was made. The meeting is being resumed today. The strike is obviously affecting railway companies generally, not only in regard to the construction of wagons bat in the maintenance of locomotives and other rolling stock. With regard to the last part of the question, I have consulted the Department concerned, and I have no information indicating that the strike has had any material effect on, the cost of living.
Subsidies
48.
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state, in detail, the amounts which have been paid in subsidies from the commencement of the War to the present time?
There would be much difficulty in giving the information desired, particularly as the term subsidy is not susceptible of close definition. Under war conditions many payments were made which, while in appearance subsidies were really in effect payments for services rendered or payments to secure supplies.
Russia (British Prisoners)
2.
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps have now been taken to provide food for British prisoners in Russia; and whether the bon. Member for Leeds has had special instructions to arrange for the exchange of officers and men who are suffering from illness and wounds, and who are not capable of taking any further part in fighting?
In reply to the first part or the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question, I would refer to the statement made yesterday. As regards the second part, the hon. Member for South-East Leeds will be requested to raise in further conversations with M. Litvinoff the cases of officers and men suffering from wounds and illness.
Can the hon. Gentle, man state whether the exacting conditions imposed by the Russian Ambassador have been the cause of the failure of negotiations between the Russian Ambassador and the hon. Member for Leeds (Mr. O'Grady)?
That is the impression left on the mind of the Government.
Police Act (Functions Of New Body)
17.
asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the new police organisation established under the Police Act of this Session will be competent to deal with questions of wages, rest days, and payment for rest days worked during the period of the War by police officers and men who may feel aggrieved on these points?
It will be competent to the Central Committees of the Police Federation to make representations to me with regard to any matters affecting the pay or conditions of service of the police. I hope, however, that their functions will prove to be much wider than the mere representation of grievances. I regard them as a representative body which I and my Department can consult on matters affecting the Police Service.
Factory And Workshops (Departmental Committee)
18.
asked the Home Secretary whether the volume of work dealt with by his Department in connection with the Factory and Workshop Act has greatly increased; and whether he is considering the formation of a Committee to consider and report on the difficulties thereby occasioned?
Yes, Sir, the work of the Factory Department has considerably increased in certain directions, and I have appointed a small Departmental Committee, with Sir Malcolm Delevigne as Chairman, to consider and advise as to the organisation of the Inspectorate.
Citizen Guards
19.
asked the Home Secretary whether the scheme for the formation of citizen guards has now been abandoned; whether the expenditure in connection with the scheme falls on the Exchequer or on local funds; and what is the estimated amount that has been spent on the scheme?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The scheme provided for the attesting of the citizen guards as special constables, and their expenses would, therefore, be payable in the same way as those of the regular police. No separate estimate of these expenses can be given, but as special constables give their services as volunteers they must be very small.
Petrol (Storage)
20.
asked whether it is the policy of the Home Office to encourage the bulk storage of petrol in underground tanks?
I am advised that bulk storage in underground tanks is by far the safest, most convenient, and most economical method of keeping petrol, and that this method should be encouraged.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say that it is the policy of his Department to increase the amount of storage in this country for oil fuel of all kinds?
I think that is so.
Housing
Kirkcaldy District
25.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the Kirkcaldy district committee of the county of Fife applied for sanction to erect, under the Sections of the Housing, Town Planning, etc. (Scotland), Act which deal with such action, twenty-eight houses for roadmen in the employment of the district committee; and whether the Scottish Board of Health have replied that these houses must be regarded as forming part of the general proposals for the provision of houses for the working classes and could not be set aside in the nature of tied houses for the exclusive use of the local authority's employés?
I am informed that the position is substantially as stated in the first part of the question. Houses provided under Part III. of the Act of 1890 should be for the working classes generally. The Scottish Board of Health have explained to the district committee that if houses are required for exclusive occupation by roadmen the County Council have special powers in that respect under the Local Government Act, 1908, and an approved scheme thereunder is entitled to State assistance.
Education (Scotland) Act
26.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he has received a resolution passed at a meeting of chairmen of parish councils in Fife, requesting the Government to consider the advisability of re-casting the Scottish Education Act so as to bring about a more equitable system of rating, and in the meantime to increase the Grants for education so as to, relieve necessitous cases; and if he proposes to take any action in these directions?
I have received the resolution referred to. As regards the question of rating, I must refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which I gave to his question No. 65 on the 9th of this month. The Department have under consideration the possibility of devising some suitable form of relief for parishes where the substitution of the county for the parish as the rating unit for education may have caused hardship; but I am unable at present to make any statement on the subject or to hold out any hope of increase of Grant during the present year.
27.
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will consider the granting of relief by Treasury grant to the Lowland districts of Scotland in the same way as he is doing in the case of the Highlands in order to relieve the heavy burden of taxation which the new Education Act has imposed?
The increase of grant promised to the Highland Education Authorities in the Minute of 9th December is in consonance with the settled practice of the Scottish Education De- partment for many years past. As regards the Lowland authorities, I regret that. I am not able, having in view the present position of the Education (Scotland) Fund, to promise any addition to the percentage grant provided for in the Department's Minute of 11th April last.
28.
asked the Secretary. for Scotland if he is aware that the great additional expense incurred under the new Education Act is causing dissatisfaction throughout Scotland; if lie will consider the advisability of inquiring into the matter with a view to the amendment of the Act and the elimination of unnecessary expenditure; and will he say if he anticipates that the Act, in all its details, will be brought into operation on the dates originally indicated?
I am aware that there is dissatisfaction in some parts of Scotland, but the new Act has been in operation for so short a time that I think it would be premature at present to contemplate any action in the direction suggested by my hon. Friend. The question of bringing into operation the provisions relating to the extension of school age and continuation classes must, I fear; be postponed to a later date than was originally anticipated.
Food Supplies
Fat Stock
29.
asked the Food Controller whether he is aware that during the fifty weeks ending 10th December last there has been in the markets about 80,000 fat cattle, 800,000 fat sheep, and 250,000 fat pigs less than during the corresponding period before control was established; and what steps he intends to take to remedy this situation which causes heavy foreign buying to the detriment of our exchange?
Before the institution of control many animals were sold privately on farms, and there were no comprehensive records as to the animals coming forward for slaughter in any given period. There has, no doubt, been a certain reduction in the numbers of pigs and sheep in the market, but, in view of the grave difficulties of a prolonged period of war, the Food Controller is satisfied that the decrease in the home supply of cattle, sheep and pigs is much less than might have reasonably been expected.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if they went to the butchers straight from the farms the difference would be much greater than that stated in the question, and that, therefore, the reduction of fat stuff is much greater than stated in the question?
I will inform my hon. Friend of what the hon. Member said.
Milk
30.
asked the Food Controller whether the prices fixed by the Government have had the effect of restricting the consumption of milk; whether a substantial quantity of the milk produced fails for this reason to reach the small consumer; whether, in view of the need of having adequate supplies available for infants, he will state the number of local authorities who have availed themselves of the powers given under the Maternity and Child Welfare Act to provide milk under cost price; and if he will make a full statement on the whole subject to the House before the House rises?
The present prices of milk do not appear to have restricted its consumption to any appreciable extent except in the exporting areas. In London there is a decrease of 1.2 per cent., but in the North of England the consumption has risen. Three hundred and five local authorities in England and Wales are providing milk under cost price, including practically all the Metropolitan and county borough councils, a considerable proportion of the county councils, and the councils of the larger urban areas. With the approval of the Minister of Health, the Food Controller has issued the Milk (Mothers and Children) Order, 1919, under which local authorities in England and Wales are empowered to provide milk at reduced prices, or free of charge, in respect of children under five years of age and expectant and nursing mothers without restricting the cheap supply to necessitous cases. He proposes to issue a similar Order for Scotland.
Can the hon. Member say whether the House may feel confident that in spite of the non-restriction of the supply of milk, the poorer classes are still getting their supply, and that it is not merely that the richer classes are paying more and the poorer classes getting loss?
I know my right hon. Friend is doing all he possibly can to see that the milk is evenly distributed among all classes.
Will the hon. Member convey to the Minister of Food the information that in Nottingham and district The prices fixed by the Food Controller have reduced the quantity supplied to the poorer people by 50 per cent. to 60 per cent., and that the milk is now being returned to the farmers in order to be made into cheese, and will he ask the Food Controller whether he cannot see his way where the local farmers and the local committee are agreed that a lower price is just, he will allow such committee to come to terms with the local farmers?
I will convey that information to my right hon. Friend.
I would ask my hon. Friend to represent to the Food Controller the fact that the town of Stornoway used to get about a hundred gallons of milk daily from the mainland, but that now, owing to the reduction in the steamer service, it can only get the milk three times a week, and has to do with half the supply?
I do not think that the Food Controller has anything to do with the steamer service.
Considering that other Members of the House have been put to the inconvenience of meeting at 12 o'clock, cannot the Leader of the House prevail upon his colleague to be on the Bench to answer questions?
My Noble Friend must make allowances. A Cabinet had to be held to-day. It was quite impossible to hold it at any other hour. It is being held now.
If my right hon. Friend can be spared from the Cabinet why—
We are now on the subject of milk.
Seeing the urgency of the question, would it be possible for the Food Controller to make a statement before the House rises to-day, as there are so many points about it on which we have no information?
I do not think that it is possible. I know of my own knowledge how much he did try to meet this difficulty. I shall myself call attention to the statement made below the Gangway and see if it is possible to do anything.
Coal Controller's Department (Cost)
32.
asked the President of the Board of Trade what is the total cost of the Coal Controller's Department from the time it commenced until 30th September?
The total cost of the Coal Controller's Department from the time it commenced until the 30th September, 1919, is £552,600.
Will any part of the money be refunded which the owners are now claiming by reason of the two increases of price, and is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many collieries threaten to close down unless definite arrangements are made between them and the Department?
I cannot give an answer with accurate figures without notice.
Unemployment Insurance
46.
asked the Prime Minister if, at a conference with certain representatives of labour on 8th December, he stated that he recognised it to be the duty of the Government to find work for all or else to provide the means of subsistence, and that in conformity with this principle a comprehensive scheme of insurance against unemployment would he introduced before Christmas; if so, will he state whether this announcment of policy was accompanied by any qualification to meet cases of unemployment arising from unjustifiable acts on the part of workpeople themselves or the existence of restrictive rules of labour organisations; and will he state whether any such scheme for dealing with unemployment will be conditional upon the adoption of measures to ensure that increase of production which is so essential in all industries?
In reply to the first part of the question, I understand that at the meeting referred to my right hon. Friend repeated, what has been often stated in this House, that the Government intended to introduce a Bill to provide a comprehensive scheme of unemployment insurance. As regards the last part of the. question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the terms of the Bill which is being introduced to-day.
Will that cover the points in the first part of the question?
If my hon. Friend will look at the Bill he will see exactly what is being proposed.
Has the Prime Minis- terbeen successful in obtaining a certain sum of money from the Prince of Wales' Fund to pay to those who are not entitled to receive any unemployment benefit?
I gave all the answer that was possible to that question yesterday. Local authorities are being invited to form committees to deal with it.
Will the Government take steps in this Bill to see that the necessary increased cost of alterations and improvements proposed by the Prime Minister in his speech are provided for?
My hon. Friend will himself have the opportunity of taking steps when the Bill comes before the House.
Can the right hon. Gen- tleman give a rough estimate of the cost?
It has been made, but I should not like, without notice, to give figures.
Germany (Extradition Of Offenders)
47.
asked the Lord Privy Seal if arrangements can be made for particulars, when settled, of the persons whose extradition will be demanded of Germany and the other enemy Powers to be circulated for the information of the House, together with the grounds on which their surrender is claimed?
At the present stage of negotiations, I cannot make any definite statement, but I have no doubt that in due course the full particulars will be made public.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at all events France has taken steps in this matter and has listed a large number of those criminals, and are we to assume at all events that His Majesty's Government are not overlooking the matter, but are taking Die necessary steps?
My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. Steps are being taken jointly by the Government.
Is it still the intention of the Government to try the Kaiser in England?
There is no change in the position of the Government.
Vienna (Food Supplies)
asked whether the Government are satisfied that the supplies provided for Vienna and Austria will last four months; if so, whether the assistance of private charity can safely be dispensed with, and, if not, what is the true position in this respect at the present time?
The statement of my Noble Friend (Lord Curzon) in another place yesterday shows very clearly how terrible the position in Vienna now is and how great the need of any help which can be given. Lord Curzon's reference to the position at the end of four months made it plain that, bad as the position now is, it will then become worse to an extent which it is impossible to describe if meantime nothing effective can be done.
Questions (Attvdance Of Ministers)
I beg to ask the Leader of the House a question of which I have not had the opportunity of giving him Private Notice, namely, why the Secretary of State for War is not here to answer questions, and, if he could not come, why he did not ask the newly appointed Financial Secretary to answer the questions; why the Secretary of State for India is not here to answer questions; why the First Commissioner of Works is not here to answer questions; and whether it is essential that these Gentlemen should be absent?
I am sorry that I cannot give an answer. I am sorry that they are not here. I can only repeat what I have said. The position is difficult. The House, we hope, will rise to-day. it was necessary to have a Cabinet, and these Ministers are present at it.
Not the Financial Secretary.
No; the Cabinet Ministers. I am sorry that arrangements have not been made.
Is it not the usual practice in this House, if a Minister be away, to have somebody here to answer in his place? I have an important question to-day addressed to the Secretary of State for India, and nobody is here to answer it.
I have no doubt about the last part of my hon. Friend's question. I can only repeat that I regret the Ministers are not here. I suppose that the Ministers thought that this was like a Friday.
Another Minister had the courtesy to send a note round saying he could not be here. Does not my right hon. Friend think that it would be advisable for the Secretary of State for India to treat the House in the same way?
Is there not always a Friday feeling about the last day of the Session?
Is it not the usual practice on the last day of the Session, even when it fall on Friday, for Ministers to be here to answer questions? It has always been the practice.
I can really say nothing more. So far as my recollection goes it is not usual to put questions on the day of Prorogation.
Air Estimates
I beg to ask a question of the Leader of the House, in reference to a question which I had put down for the Secretary of State for War, in view of the importance of the reply which I have received. The question was:
In the reply which the Secretary of State for War courteously sent me he says:"To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the memorandum by the Chief of the Air Staff issued with the Air Estimates had received detailed consideration by and the approval of the Board of Admiralty and the Army Council; and whether it is intended to supplement the Chef of the Air Staff's memorandum with any comments passed on it by the Admiralty and the War Office in so far as those Departments are affected by the proposals contained in it."
In view of the importance of that reply, which shows that there is no co-ordination between the technical heads of the Air Ministry, the War Office and the Admiralty, are we to assume that the terms of that memorandum by the Chief of the Air Staff will remain the policy of the Government, and if not, will any fresh proposal receive the consideration of the Committee of Imperial Defence or the recognised experts of the Navy and of the Army before they are presented to this House as the settled policy of the Government?"No, Sir, it was stat, d in the memoranda. that the organisation proposed was provisional. I was anxious that it should be published in order that the House might be informed at the earliest possible moment of the general outline of the proposed permanent organisation of the Royal Air Force. Discussions are now proceeding between the Departments concerned. The financial limits of the scheme must be taken as definitely settled by the Cabinet."
I am sure it will be recognised that I cannot give an answer to this question without notice. What I do know is that the Trenchard. scheme was before tie Cabinet, and That we approved it on general grounds. It is quite obvious that there must be negotiations between the Army and the Navy with reference to the subject.
May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will impress upon his colleagues in the Cabinet the immediate importance of the formation of a Joint Imperial Staff?
That is a very big question; it is receiving our attention.
Bill Presented
UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE Binn,—"to amend the Law in respect of insurance against unemployment," presented by Sir R. HORNE, supported by Mr. Wardle and Sir E. Pollock; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 261.]
Orders Of The Day
War Emergency Laws (Continuance) Bill
I beg to move:
"That further proceedings on the War Emergency Laws (Continuance) Bill be suspended till the next Session of Parliament:
That on any day in that Session a Motion may be made, after notice, by a Minister of the Crown, to be decided without Amendment or Debate, that proceedings on that Bill may be resumed:
The object of the Motion is to ask the House to agree to take the War Emergency Laws (Continuance) Bill in the new Session at the stage at which it will leave the House of Commons in this Session. The Government would have been very glad if it had been possible not to ask the House to take this course. We are anxious not to set any new precedent in this matter, but, in my opinion, what the House is now asked to do cannot be regarded in any way as setting a precedent in normal peace days. The Title of the Bill itself shows what its nature is, and it is entirely war emergency which makes it desirable, and 1 think almost necessary, that the House should agree to this Resolution. 1 think that from previous Debates the House understands what the position is. By Act of Parliament, as soon as the War is officially determined all powers under the Defence of the Realm Act come to an end. I am sure there is no one in the House who does not recognise that if that occurred something not far short of chaos would result. Whether or not the course which I am asking the House to agree to is absolutely necessary depends, of course, upon the time when the Peace Treaty with Turkey, which will be the last, is ratified. The House knows how great the delay has been, but it knows also from the statement made by the Prime Minister the other day that the Allies are now determined to push forward as quickly as they can. The delay has been deplorable in every way, and it is obvious that it ought to be carried out now as quickly as possible. I do not suggest to the House that, in my opinion, even with the best efforts it will be completed at a time which makes' this Resolution absolutely necessary, but it is possible it may be completed, and it is against that eventuality that I ask the House to pass this Resolution. If, for example, it were completed by 31st March, I am sure the house would realise that it would at least be very difficult, if it were possible at all, to carry a Bill through all its stages. It could only be done by putting the House to very great inconvenience, the extent of which it is not possible to see in advance. The House meets on 10th February. There will be the Address; there is financial business which must be completed by 31st March; and it is obvious to anyone who has followed the proceedings of the House that it would be extremely difficult to obtain time for any legislation in that period. The House cannot take the risk of not having this provision made at the time the Treaty is ratified. I am sure it would not occur to any Member of the House that it would be reasonable that we should delay the actual ratification of a Treaty because we had not made the necessary arrangements. It was suggested in the previous Debate that we might delay the Order in Council, but that, I think, would be also impossible. This is settled by an Act of Parliament. The Act of Parliament lays it down that War is to be determined by an Order in Council, which is to be issued as soon as possible after the final ratification of Peace. Suppose we did delay the issue of the Order in Council, in any ease it could be only for a very short time. But I think it would be much worse than that. It might, perhaps, be regarded as acting in the letter of the Act of Parliament, but certainly it would be entirely against the spirit, and I venture to say that to do that would be a far greater breach of all the Rules and precedents of this House than to follow the course I am now asking the House to adopt. I do not think it is necessary for me to say more. When this subject was under discussion before, the Government. made it plain that we were not anxious to have any powers which were not absolutely vital, and I am sure Members who have been on the Standing Committee will admit that the Government representatives have shown throughout that we are anxious to cut it down to the smallest possible limit, and have no desire for anything which is not absolutely essential. It is an advantage, and it was partly because I thought it an advantage, that I did not ask the House to proceed to the Report stage—it is an advantage that if the ratification should be delayed longer than I hope, then we shall have the opportunity in the Report stage of cutting out anything that is then found to be unnecessary. I quite recognise there is some feeling against establishing new precedents. It is a perfectly legitimate feeling. We often carry that feeling beyond an extent which in wise in the circumstances. This really is as essential a war measure, caused by the War, the result of the emergency of the War, as any of the Acts that were done in the middle of the War itself. I hope I have convinced the House that we are not asking anything unreasonable; that it is something which, if not absolutely necessary, is almost absolutely necessary. In my opinion, it would be foolish of the House in these circumstances to refuse to give us the Resolution I have moved.If that Motion is decided in the affirmative, Mr. Speaker shall proceed to call upon the Minister in charge to present the Bill in the form in which it stood when the proceedings thereon were suspended, and the Bill shall be ordered to be printed and shall be deemed to have been read a second time and to have been considered in a Standing Committee and shall be ordered for Consideration, as amended."
I shall try to follow my right hon. Friend in the length of my remarks, because every Member of the House feels that this is not an occasion for discussing serious Parliamentary precedents. The first thing I want to say is that I think we are entitled to protest, and to protest strongly, against this Motion being taken on the day of the Prorogation. After all, the Leader of the House indicates to Members what the arrangements with regard to business are to be, and Members make their arrangements towards the end of the Session with that in view. I know that a number of my Friends on this side had no indication at all that this was to he taken on the day of the Prorogation, and it is—I do not like to use the word discourteous, but it is unfair to the House, when so many Members interested in this measure are absent, to ask us to proceed to a discussion on this occasion. I notice that almost the first argument my right hon. Friend used was a withdrawal from a position that the Government itself has taken up this Session. He said he was anxious not to set a precedent. But we all recollect that it was actually in the mind of the Leader of the House and of the Government to carry over quite a number of the main measures this Session. My right hon. Friend shakes his head, but I think a good many hon. Members will recollect the replies that were given to questions with regard to that, and I think I am in the recollection of the House when I say we all thought that at least three or four measures were to be introduced, have a Second Reading this Session, and be carried over—among them the Irish Home Rule Bill. So that I think I am quite fair in pointing out that, although the Leader of the House to-day has said that he is not anxious to create a precedent, the actual idea was in the mind of the Government to enlarge this practice and to make a precedent of it on this occasion. Although I have not looked up the precedents, I am certain that there is very little, if any, precedent for a course of this kind. I think somebody did tell me yesterday that there were one or two precedents, but certainly they are very few.
We have to bear in mind what the carryover would mean in ordinary circumstances. That might form the subject of a long discussion, which I want to avoid, but I think it is fair to say that no Government is entitled to take advantage of the carry-over for at least three reasons. There is always a change in public opinion. Public opinion alters from time to time, and, from the introduction of many Bills into this House, until they receive the Royal Assent, there is, as hon. Members know, a great difference in the support which may be given to those Bills in the country. There is, further, the fact that unpopular measures may be pressed unduly, and with that my third point is cognate in a sense, namely, that Bills may be introduced into this House, carried over, and eventually made law, on which no Government has any mandate. I am not accusing the present Government. of any particular sin in that respect, because it is common to all Governments who come into this House. It will he within the recollection of the House that. Bills have been introduced, and have become law, for which there has been no mandate, with disastrous results at the ensuing election to the Government concerned. Therefore, my first point is that the carry-over is so big a change in the procedure of the House that a very strong case must be made out before we ought to agree to it. In this case we are dealing with a temporary measure, a measure which has already been discussed in Committee upstairs, and, as I would remind my right hon. Friend, by a Committee probably more sparsely attended than many Committees that have met during this Session, and in which decisions by the barest majorities have been taken. I need only remind my right hon. Friend of the fact that the shipping control was kept on by the Committee upstairs by the bare majority vote of one member. That fact alone indicates a large volume of opinion in favour of removing all control from shipping, and in these circumstances—and there are many other instances—it is unfair to persist in a Motion of this kind. Further, it is very doubtful whether this Bill is required. So far as I have been able observe, the demand for it is not on the part of the older Departments of State, but on the part of the new bureaucracies which have been set up as a result of the War. It is the Shipping Control, the Food Control, the Coal Control, and new offices of that kind, that are insisting upon these Regulations being kept in force. If that be so, and I think it cannot be disproved, it seems to me that we want much more substantial reasons than those given by the Leader of the House for altering the immemorial practice. Turning to the measure itself, this Bill proposes to continue the whole of the Defence of the Realm Act in Ireland for twelve months after the termination of the War. That point is dealt with, as my right hon. Friend knows, in Sub-section (4) of Clause 3. I think the House ought to turn its attention for a minute or two to the date of the termination of the War, and see what the carry-over means with regard to Ireland. That has a special significance in view of the policy of the Government outlined yesterday by the Prime Minister. Take the case of Germany. The German Treaty is not yet ratified.It is ratified, but the ratification is not yet deposited.
I do not want to quarrel about the technical phraseology, but until it is deposited there can be no termination of the War. It is the termination of the War that has not come into force. That has happened in the case of Germany. The Austrian Treaty may follow the same course as the German Treaty. What guarantee is there that it will not? My right hon. Friend, however much he desires it, and however much we all desire it, cannot give any guarantee that the same kind of trouble will not arise in connection with the Austrian Treaty as has arisen in connection with the German Treaty. The same argument would apply also to the Bulgarian Treaty. When we come to the other two countries we are in a worse position, because neither in the case of Hungary nor in the case of Turkey have we yet got the length of having the Treaty signed. There is, therefore, bound to be a large efflux of time before we can actually say that the War has terminated. In fact, I do not think I shall be exaggerating if I say that the maximum possibility is another two years. I do not mean two years after the ratification, but this Bill continues the Defence of the Realm Act in Ireland for one year after the termination of the War. The prospect, therefore, so far as Ireland is concerned, is one of two years. What does the Defence of the Realm Act mean in Ireland? The Defence of the Realm Act in Ireland means military rule under a military dictatorship, because that is what we see operating to-day in the sister island.
The hon. Member is not entitled to bring in an Irish Debate, which has nothing to do with carrying over the Bill. The hon. Member can show that to carry it over for six weeks or two months would have disastrous effects, and that as an argument might be relevant, but there is no relevancy in his present argument.
I have no desire to embark on an Irish Debate or even to open it up, but my point was this, that the carrying over of this Bill keeps certain powers alive. If we could destroy these powers, we should have a much better chance of it peaceful progress in Ireland, and, therefore, if the Government—
Destroyed in six weeks? That raises a different issue altogether. The fact that we carry this Bill over till next Session still leaves the question open next Session whether we accept the Bill on Report or not. I think that states the case.
I always bow to your ruling, Sir, but my impression was that if we defeat the Government to-day, if that were possible, as it is desirable, and they could not carry over the Bill, it would then not exist, and if it does not exist, then they would require to deal with the Defence of the Realm Act in this country and in Ireland in another way.
They could bring it in next Session.
That is possible, but if they were beaten to-day we might accept that as the opinion of the House and let the Bill go.
I think that is a confusion of issues. We are not discussing the merits of the Bill now at all. The hon. Member is discussing the merits, and showing reasons why the Bill should be thrown out altogether, but we are not discussing that now. We are discussing whether the Bill in its present stage should be carried over till next Session or whether next Session we should begin again at the beginning.
Well, Sir, I repeat, then, that this is a dangerous precedent to allow to the Government—a precedent which might be repeated and enlarged on other occasions, and this House is well aware that once any Government has set a precedent of that sort, that precedent is followed by the same Government and by Governments that succeed it. We ought to have plenty of time, if the Government arranged the time in the proper way, to discuss these things fully, and I hope the House will refuse the power to the Government to carry this Bill over till next Session.
I find myself, perhaps rather unexpectedly, very much in agreement with the hon. Member, who has just sat down. I listened with great attention to the remarks of the Leader of the House in introducing this Motion, and they seemed to me apologetic. I think he was conscious that 10 P.M. he had a poor case which it was rather difficult to defend, and certainly they appeared pitched in a minor key There is no question that this Motion involves a very unusual proceeding contrary to the immemorial practice of the House, with one doubtful exception to which I will refer more fully later. My right hon. Friend pleads that this is a war emergency. So it is, in a sense, but I do not think there is any special virtue in the word "emergency." We have only to look at the Order Paper for yesterday to find that one of the Orders was the Coal Industry (Emergency) Bill, and that it is not proposed to carry over. However that may be, I do not think it is a very strong plea... For the reasons which the hon. Member who has just spoken has very conclusively given, it is very questionable whether the Bill is needed at all. The termination of the War in the technical sense may be a long way off, and the ratification of treaties with Hungary and Turkey might riot in the least require this Bill to be carried over or passed. My right hon. Friend has not really dealt with the much simpler suggestion that the Government might withdraw this Bill and reintroduce it next Session. It would simplify all this trouble, and by means of honourable understanding or agreements which are often arrived at in this House, I should have thought. it would have been quite possible for the Government more or less to ensure that no undue time would be wasted over it in the next Session of Parliament. Surely that would be the simplest solution of the problem, and I for one think it ought to have been proposed.
If my right hon. Friend means that the sections of the House which speak as a rule with authority for the House are ready to say to me, "We will agree to allow the Bill formally to go through the stages to the stage at which it now stands," I will readily agree to accept that.
I am very glad to hear my right hon. Friend say that, and if the course of this Debate shows him that he can arrive at that understanding —
I wish to say at once to the House that the Government really think the Motion is necessary, and that we might be landed in a very awkward position if we did not have it But I do not want to press it, and I have never found that. any understanding arrived at across the floor in regard to a Bill was broken, and if I can get the assurance that has been indicated I will gladly accept it and drop this Bill now.
I do not quite know how far my right hon. Friend wishes me to continue to argue this question, but as far as I am concerned I shall be perfectly willing to give such an undertaking. At the same time, I do not wish to sit down without being assured that something of the kind will be agreed to.
The intimation which the Leader of the House has given is one which is as welcome as it is interesting. As far as I am concerned, of course very regretfully, I was prepared to fight this matter, even if it took some considerable time to-day, holding the view that a matter of very great. constitutional importance is involved. and, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, a very dangerous precedent is likely to be set up. I really do feel an over-riding sense of responsibility for the traditions of Parliament, which, after all, in the troublous days before us, are going to be one of the most useful and valuable checks on any executive, or whatever the party representing the executive may be at the moment. What my right hon. Friend said is this. Be agreed that a precedent. of this kind is one which he would regret to set up, and what I understand he asks from those of us who would undoubtedly take in the future as active a part as they have done in the past in criticising such a measure as this, is what attitude would we next Session in regard to this matter? I can say this on behalf of my hon. Friends who took a very active part in the Committee upstairs, and, so far as I can bind them—my right hon. Friend knows even with his docile following there are occasional outbreaks of independence, and I suffer from a similar difficulty—I should say this, that I should regard it as a very unfriendly act on the part of my colleagues if next Session they did riot treat the Committee stage., which, after all, is a very important stage, as practically a formal stage.
And the Second Reading?
The Second Reading, certainly, I would regard as a matter to be dealt with, although not carried certainly to any undue length. But it is on the Second Reading where the occasion would arise for demonstrating any real difference between then and now. So far as the Committee stage, which really causes delay, is concerned, I would strongly advise my colleagues to treat that as practically a formal stage.
Could you give us all these stages in one day
You mean Second Reading and Committee stage—that would be a Committee of the Whole Rouse?
I can assure the House I should be very glad indeed to arrange something of this kind. It seems it could be done if a general undertaking were given that we should be allowed to get the Second Reading and the Committee stage on the floor of the House in one day.
As far as I am concerned, I will do my very utmost to carry the whole of my colleagues with me.
I want to say that, as far as I am personally concerned, I will do my best, if the right hon. Gentleman thinks this is the better course to pursue.
I should like to say one word. I make no complaint on the ground of being brought down here to-day. Some of us curtailed our holiday because we thought a very important constitutional question was to be raised. Again, this arrangement must not be taken as a precedent, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House does not wish an agreement of the kind now proposed, supposing the Bill is not brought in till October or something of that kind. It is an emergency condition which, of course, will be granted if the events to which my right hon. Friend has referred happen before 31st March.
I have had a good deal of experience of this kind of arrange, ment, and once it is agreed to in spirit, we have never had any difficulty in carrying it out in practice. Certainly it would be a great misfortune to us and to the whole world if by any possibility the Bill were delayed for months after March. But, on the understanding that the Bill will be required in some reasonable time, I am ready to give the assurance asked for.
I am glad to accept that. Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
A Royal Commission has been ordered for Three o'clock, and I propose therefore to leave the Chair until then.
Sitting suspended at ten minutes after One o'clock. Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair at Three o'clock.Royal Assent
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.
The House went, and, haring returned,
I have to inform the House that the House has been to the House of Peers, where a Commission under the Great Seal was read authorising the Royal Assent to:
Prorogation
His Majesty's Most Gracious Speech
I have further to acquaint the House that the Lord High Chancellor, being one of the High Commissioners, delivered His Majesty'. Most Gracious Speech to both Houses of Parliament in pursuance of His Majesty's Command, as followeth:
My Lords, and Members of the House of Commons,After many months of arduous deliberation in Paris, the efforts of the Plenipotentiaries of the Allied and Associated Powers have been crowned with success, and Treaties of Peace with Germany, Austria and Bulgaria have been concluded. In the negotiations the Prime Ministers of all My Dominions and Representatives of India took an influential part. I have signified. My approval of the Treaty of Peace with Germany and have ratified it. Peace still remains to be concluded with theOttoman Empire and the Republic of Hungary, and I earnestly trust that the necessary negotiations for this purpose will shortly be brought to a satisfactory conclusion. I regret that there is no improvement in the unhappy conditions prevailing in Russia. and that there is no immediate prospect in that country of the establishment of Constitutional Government, which alone can conduce to its permanent prosperity. My relations with My Allies and Associates in the Great War remain of the most friendly character, and I have every expectation that the close and intimate co-operation which led to victory will be long continued to the benefit of all. In August last My Government concluded with the Persian. Government an Agreement tending to cement the ties of friendship between the two countries, which have so many interests in common, and to promote the welfare and progress of Persia. I have since had the pleasure of entertaining the Shah on his first visit to Europe. The signal success which has attended the visit of the Prince of Wales to Canada and Newfoundland has filled My heart with feelings of pride and satisfaction. The overwhelming enthusiasm with which My son was everywhere welcomed affords a fresh proof of the affectionate loyalty which animates all My Peoples, and I rejoice that his visit has strengthened the ties of comradeship which unite the various countries of the Empire. He subsequently visited the United States of America, where he was greeted with a warmth and kindliness which will, I am confident, have the happiest effect on the relations between the British Empire and that great Republic. The whole Empire mourns the death of General Botha, one of the greatest and wisest of its Statesmen.. The sagacity and far-sightedness which made him the trusted leader of the people of the Dominion of South Africa, and which contributed so much to the sue-cess of the Allies, econ universal recognition at the recent deliberations in Paris. A measure which marks the first stage in the development of responsible government in India has become law, and I rely on all My Subjects to work together for its success. In a Proclamation which I am addressing to Jig Viceroy and to the Princes a ad People of India, I am expressing My hope that harmonious political life will be steadily built up on the foundations thus laid, and I am announcing Jig intention of sending My. Son, the Prince of Wales, to India to inaugurate the new Constitution.Members of the House of Commons,I thank you for the provision that you hare made for the service of a year in which public expenditure has necessarily continued on an abnormal scale largely exceeding both the permanent and temporary revenue. I trust that next year, with the return to more normal conditions, you will he aide to take the first steps in the reduction of the National Debt. The condition of our finances and the state of our credit continue to occupy the serious attention of My Ministers. Only by strict economy in both public and private expenditure and by sustained increase of production can the country maintain its historic position in commerce and finance.My Lords, and Members of the House of Commons,I cannot view without concern the grave economic position of a large part at Europe. The task of restoring credit and restarting industry in the countries whose economic life has been destroyed by five years of war is one of the first conditions of a return to settled peace, but 'it is too large a task for any nation to undertake unaided. I was enabled by the liberality of Parliament to place a large sum at the disposal of the Supreme Economic Council for the relief of immediate necessities, but that sum is now nearly exhausted. Farther measures of relief and reconstruction. can only be undertaken as the result of joint action by all nations interested in the restoration of international com-merce. My Government would gladly co-operate with the Governments of other countries to this end if a suitable plan can, be devised. Great progress has been made during the past year in the gigantic task of demobilising My Navy, Army and Air Force, impeded as it has been by the uncertainties of the situation in large parts of Europe and Asia. The lot of the men who have served in. My Forces during the War, and especially of those who are disabled, has been the subject of anxious consideration. It is a source of great satisfaction to Me that it has been possible to increase the scales of pension paid to war veterans and to the dependants of those who gave their lives in the War. 1 am glad to know that very large numbers of men have been reabsorbed in peaceful industries, but it is important that employment should be within the reach of all who are able to take advantage of it. To this end I have made an appeal to the employers of the country which has received a large response. But more remains to be done, and I am hopeful that the measures which have been and are being taken for giving them training in skilled occupations and for placing them in employment will have the ready support of all My People. Measures have also been passed to facilitate the settlement on the land of ex-Service men who have fought in the War, and for providing them with the necessary assistance in establishing themselves in agriculture. The continued high cost of living, with all its evil consequences, has caused distress throughout the world, though it is lower in the British Isles than elsewhere. The problem of reducing it has received your constant consideration, and measures have been taken which it is hoped may prevent the charging of unreasonable prices for necessary articles. In the sphere of domestic legislation the Session has been marked by the passage of an unprecedented number of Bills dealing with reconstruction in all its aspects.Important measures have been passed affecting the conditions of labour. There is no doubt that public opinion throughout the world is deeply interested in the manner in which Great Britain is dealing with its labour and industrial problem, and I am confident that though the difficult times are not yet passed our course is set fair towards a renewal of national strength and prosperity. 1 am glad to think that there has been a steady improvement in industrial conditions. Unemployment, which in the earlier part of the year was unexampled in extent, stands to-day at a figure which compares favourably with the years prior to the War. This is all the more remarkable considering the immense numbers of men and women discharged from the Services and from munition works at home. The Acts for restoring privileges surrendered during the War and for stabilising the conditions of employment have done much to avoid friction in the industrial life of the country. The establishment of an Industrial Court has provided the machinery for securing the peaceful settlement of disputes and promoting harmony among those engaged in industry. These measures form part of a programme which it has not been found possible to complete in the present Session. Proposals have been formulated for fixing a maximum number of hours of employment, for instituting a minimum wage, and for making increased provision against unemployment. I trust that at an early date they may receive the assent of Parliament. I have given My assent to an Act constituting a Ministry of Agriculture, Agricultural Councils for England and Wales, an Advisory Committee to assist the Minister, and providing for the decentralisation of Agricultural Administration to Committees of the County Councils. I have also assented to Bills for the establishment of the Ministry of Health in England, and a Board of Health in Scotland, and a Council of Health in Ireland. I anticipate that when they are in fall working order they willprove invaluable in co-ordinating and improving the service of the health of the people. The Housing and Town Planning Acts which were passed in July, and the Housing (Additional Powers) Act to which I have just given assent, mark a new departure in housing legislation; and it is My sincere hope that these measures will facilitate the solution of the housing problem in the United Kingdom by providing increased and better accommodation and leading to the progressive elimination of insanitary dwelling. I view with satisfaction the passing of the Act to establish a Ministry of Transport. The creation of an effective system of transport will greatly contribute to agricultural and industrial development, to the solution of the housing problem, and to the reparation of the immense losses inflicted on the country by the War. Upon these measures the future prosperity of the country very largely depends. The pressure on the time of Parliament has made it impossible to enact in its entirety the Electricity Supply Bill as passed by the House of Commons. Provision has, howerer, been made which enables the necessary Commissioners to be established and the preliminary steps to be taken in the reorganisation of this vital industry. A portion of this Bill was temporarily postponed with the object of giving adequate time to Par-liament to deliberate fully upon its terms. It is greatly hoped, however, that upon the reassembly of Parliament consideration of the remaining portion will be resumed.In addition to these Bills, a number of other Acts, relating to the Acquisition of Land, Patents and Designs, Trademarks, Wireless Telegraphy, and other matters of importance in the practical work of reconstruction, have received My assent.Then a Commission for proroguing the Parliament was read in the House of Lords.
After which the Lord Chancellor said:
MY LORDS AND MEMBERS,—By virtue of His Majesty's Commission, under the Great Seal, to us and other Lords directed, and now read, we do, in His Majesty's Name and in obedience to his Commands, Prorogue this Parliament to Tuesday the tenth day of February, One thousand nine hundred and twenty, to be then here holden; and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Tuesday the tenth day of February, One thousand nine hundred and twenty.
End of the First Session (opened, Tuesday, 4th February,1919) of the Thirty-first Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the tenth year of the Reign of His Majesty King George the Fifth.