House of Commons
Monday, May 10, 1920
Private Business
Ebbw Vale Urban District Council Bill,
Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.
Huddersfield Corporation (GeneralPowers) Bill,
Port of Portsmouth Floating Bridge Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
River Lee Watershed (Flood Prevention) Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Huddersfield Corporation (Lands) Bill,
Leigh Corporation Bill,
Liverpool Corporation Waterworks Bill,
Tyne Improvement Bill [ Lords ],
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Bootle Corporation Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time, and committed.
Carbery's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],
To be read a Second time To-morrow.
Humber Commercial Railway and Dock Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time, and committed.
White's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],
To be read a Second time To-morrow.
Wandsworth, Wimbledon, and Epsom
District Gas Bill [ Lords ] ( by Order ),
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,
Read the Third time, and passed.
Transport (Edmonton)
I am desired to present a petition, signed by more than 2,200 electors of the borough of Edmonton, calling attention to the insufficient services of trains and trams, and difficulties in relation to workmen's tickets; and praying that this House will give consideration to an improved service of trains, to an increased service of tram-cars, and other public vehicles, and consideration to the difficulties of workmen's tickets.
Oral Answers to Questions
Trade and Commerce
Merchandise Marks Act
asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been drawn to the fact that certain manufactured articles and commodities of foreign origin are being sold in this country without any indication of the country which manufactured them being attached; and what steps he proposes to take to rigidly apply the provisions of the Merchandise Marks Act?
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that large quantities of picture postcards are being imported into this country from Germany and elsewhere without any indication being printed thereon as to the country of origin; and whether any action is contemplated in the direction of insisting that each postcard shall bear an imprint?
I am aware that foreign-made goods are imported into and sold in this country without indications of origin. This is not illegal so long as the goods do not bear any marks or other indications denoting British origin. My predecessor set up a committee to consider the provisions of the Merchandise Marks Act respecting indications of origin, and I hope to receive their report very shortly. It is impossible to take any further action until their report has been received.
Paper Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade what steps he is taking to protect the country from a famine in paper supplies; is he aware that it is impossible to dispose of waste paper in bulk; and has he any information to show that a monopoly exists in the supply of any or all ordinary qualities of paper?
I am aware that, in consequence of the great demand, and the general shortage of supplies of paper-making materials throughout the world, prices have risen everywhere to a very high level, and that users of newsprint in particular are anxious as to their future supplies, but I do not at present see what action His Majesty's Government can usefully take to ameliorate the situation, which is entirely due to economic causes. I understand that waste paper merchants are experiencing some difficulty in disposing of waste paper to paper manufacturers. With regard to the last part of the question, I am not aware of any monopoly as regards the supply of any qualities of paper.
May I ask whether the fact that it is so difficult to dispose of waste paper to-day, whereas before the War it was so easy to dispose of it at good prices, does not indicate that there is something fundamentally wrong which is injuring the paper industry and interests of this country?
It undoubtedly indicates that the people who want material out of which to manufacture paper prefer to get new and original supplies to getting waste paper, and, therefore, would seem to indicate that the shortage of pulp is not so great as some people imagine.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of reintroducing the system adopted in the War of using envelopes for the second time, and other expedients of that sort?
Is it not a fact that one of the greatest sources of the world's supplies of paper is the great Austrian paper mills, and cannot steps be taken to ensure them supplies of raw materials so that they can start to make the very excellent paper they made before the War?
My information is that everybody in this country wants greater supplies of raw materials, and America and Canada are suffering just as badly as we are. What action can be taken to get rid of this shortage in the world, I really cannot suggest.
Can the right hon. Gentleman see his way to urge upon the Government Departments the necessity of not making so much waste paper?
I will very gladly do that myself.
Importation of Goods (Proclamation)
asked what proclamations prohibiting or restricting the importation of goods will receive legal validity if Clause 4 of the Indemnity Bill becomes law; and what goods are affected by such Proclamations?
My hon. Friend will find a complete list of the Proclamations in question, together with the dates at which they were issued and the commodities to which they relate, in the OFFICIAL REPORT of the 22nd December last.
Dye-Stuffs
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, until the judgment of Mr. Justice Sankey on the subject, there was in operation a prohibition or restriction upon the importation inter alia of dye-stuffs from Germany; and, if so, for what reason and for whose benefit?
The importation of dye-stuffs from any source except under licence was prohibited until the date of the judgment to which my hon. Friend refers. This prohibition was maintained until that date for the purpose of promoting the dye-making industry in the United Kingdom, in order to safeguard the country from a recurrence of the difficulties which arose from pre-war dependence upon foreign sources of supply.
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the very grave injury inflicted by these Regulations upon the textile industries of the country, especially in the export trade, and will he see that a new Clause is inserted: and that nothing of the kind takes place again, in view of the great world shortage?
I think my hon. Friend must forget the pledges which have been given by all Governments since the War began, in connection with the dyeing industry, with a view to preserving our independence of foreign sources of supply.
What has been happening to the dyeing industry since the Sankey judgment? [HON. MEMBERS: "It has been dyeing!"]
My hon. Friend knows that we have not yet met with that opposition to the dyeing industry which we must anticipate in the near future?
Will the right hon. Gentleman very carefully consider the matter before giving undoubted advantage to this country whilst very large duties are being imposed upon the wines of our Allies?
Coal Production
Exports
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Perim Coal Company, Limited, a British coaling depot at Perim on the eastern trade route, applied last November to the Coal Controller for a permit to ship a cargo of South Wales coal to their depôt; that after much delay a permit was granted and this company chartered the ss. "Belltown" to carry the cargo to Perim; that, as the coal was not forthcoming, the charter of this steamer had to be cancelled and the steamer was recently directed by the Ministry of Shipping to take a cargo of coal to Genoa; that this steamer has been chartered to load homewards from the East and, after discharging at Genoa, will have to pass Perim in ballast to load her homeward cargo; that the Perim Coal Company can get no satisfaction from the Coal Controller; and that, owing to their inability to supply their depot with coal, it will have to close down, to the inconvenience and detriment of British shipping; and can he state what measures he is taking to increase the output of the coal mines and the export of coal which is of such vital importance to the nation?
A general licence for the export of 5,000 tons of South Wales coal (October/November shipment) was issued to the Perim Coal Company in September, 1919. I understand that no shipment was effected under this licence; but the grant of a licence, or permission to ship, did not and could not constitute a guarantee that coal would be forthcoming. Seeing that the exportable surplus is now less than a third of what it was before the War, and that there has consequently been great difficulty in ensuring supplies, even to the coaling stations in the Atlantic and Mediterranean (to say nothing of the unsatisfied needs of our Allies and of British Possessions overseas), I regret that I cannot undertake that adequate supplies of British coal will be available for coaling stations East of Suez, which should have recourse as far as possible to Indian or South African coal. So far as it is within the power of the Government to overcome any impediment to increased output, everything possible is being done.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that other British shipowners are threatened with the same state of affairs owing to shortage of coal, and is he also aware that everything in connection with coal is in a state of chaos?
I am painfully aware of the shortage of coal.
asked the President of the Board of Trade the quantity of coal exported from South Wales to the River Plate for the use of British railways in the Argentine and Uruguay from 1st January last to the latest date of which he has a record and the date thereof; and the number of steamers now waiting for bunkers and for coal cargoes in the Bristol Channel ports, and the longest period that any of these steamers have been in port?
During the period from 1st January to 7th May, 1920, inclusive, the quantity of coal registered as exported from South Wales ports to Uruguay and the Argentine Republic was 258,321 tons. I have no information as to the proportion of this amount which was shipped for the use of British railways in those countries. I am informed that, excluding small craft under 500 tons nett, the number of steamers waiting for bunkers and coal cargoes in South Wales ports is approximately 105, of which 30 are under the British flag. The longest period any of these have been in port is since the middle of February, but no British steamer has waited anything like this period.
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, prior to the War, millions of tons, in place of the thousands of tons he now cites, were shipped to the Argentine, and that prior to the War the export of coal to the Argentine practically paid for our imports of wheat from that country?
I am quite aware that the position was very much better before the War than it is now.
Can the hon. Gentleman say what is being done by the Government to increase the output of coal?
Is it not a fact that many industries and manufactories in this country are held up for the want of coal, and will he consider the needs of the British manufacturers before considering the export of coal?
We are doing that.
Shortage, Manchester
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the acute shortage of coal in Manchester; and whether he will take action to relieve it?
From the information in the possession of the Coal Mines Department, it would appear that supplies of household coal for the Manchester district are approximately equal to the requirements. The question of the distribution of supplies within the area is being looked into. As regards supplies for public ultility undertakings, there is some deficiency caused partly by increased consumption of gas and electricity. The question of regular supplies is being taken up with the collieries concerned, and some additional supplies, to meet the increased demand, are being allocated.
Will the hon. Gentleman consider the expediency of supplying Manchester with coal from Lancashire and Yorkshire, instead of restricting the supplies to districts further a field?
The whole system of distribution is carefully arranged between the Coal Department and the Ministry of Transport, and they have to make the best arrangements they can
Industrial and Household Supplies (Increased Prices)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is in a position to announce the increase in the price of coal to the industrial and private consumer rendered necessary by the recent increase in the wages and salaries of those employed in the coal industry; and can he say that, with this latest increase in price, the coal industry-is now self-supporting and that no further call will be made on the taxpayer by way of subsidy?
I must apologise for the length of this answer, but, in view of the importance of the matter, I hope the House will allow me to read it in extenso.
The suggestion in the last part of the hon. and gallant Member's question to the effect that the coal industry is at present being subsidised by the taxpayer is erroneous. As the House is aware, coal sold for inland consumption is at present subsidised out of the profits derived from coal which is exported. Inland coal, even before the recent advance in wages has thus been sold at less than the average cost of production—taken together with the profit allowed to the coal owners. The greatest part of this subsidy has been granted in the form of a temporary reduction of 10s. a ton in the price of household coal. This reduction was made in order to assist the householder through the winter, but industrial coal, which did not obtain the advantage of this concession, has also been sold at a loss, which has had to be made up from the profits on the export trade.
The Government have given very careful consideration to the question whether present conditions justify the continuance of this policy of subsidy. They think that it is essential, in the interest of the coal industry and of the country, that the present system of controlling inland distribution should be altered as soon as possible. This can only be done if the artificial differentiation between the prices of household and industrial coal be removed. Further there exists no reason for supplying coal to the industries of this country at less than it costs; and the period for which the subsidy on household coal was intended to last has expired. In these circumstances the Government have come to the conclusion that household coal should no longer be sold at a less price than coal for industry and that both should be sold at a price sufficient to meet the cost of production and the standard profits allowed by the Coal Emergency Act.
To effect this result it is necessary to increase the price of industrial coal by 4s. 2d. per ton, and the price of household coal by 14s. 2d. per ton. The new price will be a maximum, not a fixed price, and will take effect on Wednesday, 12th May. It will be clear from what I have said that the necessity to increase the price of coal would have arisen apart from the recent advance of wages given in the mining industry. The advance of wages is, however, a factor in the case in so far as it increases the cost of production by about 2s. 10d. a ton, and therefore makes the increase necessary to place the price of coal on an economic basis greater by that amount.
Would not all the difficulties that the right hon. Gentleman has enumerated in the increase of price be overcome by a greatly increased output of coal?
There is no doubt at all that increased production would greatly mitigate prices.
Will the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House give us the opportunity of discussing the Board of Trade Vote at an early date, in order that this very important statement may be reviewed by the House?
As soon as it is asked for, we shall be glad to put the Vote down.
Does the Government recognise the great hardship that is going to be inflicted on thousands of families in the country in the increase of household coal by 14s. 2d. per ton? It will mean more wages you can bet!
Does the hon. Gentleman consider that the increase of 2s. per ton on wages justifies the 14s. 2d. per ton on the retail price of coal? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the immediate result will be a further and immediate request for more wages, and so the old game will go on?
We have taken into account all the considerations to which my hon. Friend refers; but it is not really merely the 2s. increase in wages that requires the 14s. increase; the hon. Member must recognise that the coal has been sold at less than it costs to produce, and the only question is whether we can carry on like that.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that bunkers are now costing up to £9 per ton in some cases in this country, and can he review the whole coal position with the idea of getting it on an economic basis?
Yes, the whole question is being reviewed at the present time, and the supply of bunkers is having special consideration.
Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of recommending that the Government should not profiteer when so much complaint is made against other people profiteering?
There is no case of profiteering at all against coal.
Does the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman mean that the new price foreshadowed leaves no profit to the Government from the coal industry?
There is no doubt there will be some profit from the export of coal, although what the amount may be is very uncertain. There will be no question of profiteering.
Have the Government considered the advisability of giving that profit on the export of coal to the consumer, and so saving the demand that will inevitably follow?
We have considered that very carefully.
As obviously we cannot discuss this matter by way of question and answer, I beg to give notice that I will raise it at 11 o'clock to-night.
Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of increasing the export?
Steam Coal (Quality)
15 & 16.
asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) whether he is aware of the very bad quality of coal for steam purposes which is now being supplied to local authorities in London who have public undertakings to carry on; whether he is aware that the Port of London Authority recently had to refuse over 200 tons of coal as totally unsuitable for heating boilers; if he can instruct the Coal Controller to specially consider this matter and supply a better quality of coal for public undertakings;
(2) whether his attention has been called to the serious complaints of municipal electric undertakings in London and district as to the quality of coal supplied to their works, which owing to its poor quality greatly increases the cost of their industry; and whether he will call the urgent attention of the Coal Controller to this matter and ask him to meet the representatives of these authorities and discuss the necessity of improving the present delivery and quality of coal?
I would refer the hon. Member to my reply of the 3rd May to a somewhat similar question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for South Bradford. I have not received any complaint from the Port of London Authority respecting fuel unsuitable for heating boilers. The necessities of public undertakings in London are fully recognised and are receiving special consideration.
Thrapston (Northants) Co-Operative, Society
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Thrapston (Northants) Co-operative Society have received no coal for their registered customers since 16th March last, a period of seven weeks; if he will state the reason why coal is sent to the same depot for other retailers of coal and that this society is refused; whether he is aware that this firm were 250 tons short in 1919, and that for the four months of this year they only received 40 tons, though they should have 45 tons a month; and if he will endeavour to do something, as all attempts with fuel overseers have been futile?
I understand that the Thrapston Co-operative Society obtains the bulk of its coal from the Co-operative Wholesale Society, but, in view of the statements made by the hon. Member, full inquiries are being made into the position of the local society's supplies. Should the inquiries show that the need exists, emergency coal will be sent into the district while the question of the regular supplies is being brought up with those concerned.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the answer to the question is rather belated, because since it was tabled a truck of coal has been sent; why, in that case, could not it have been sent before the question was put down?
If the hon. Gentleman knew that, he might have taken the question off the Paper.
Mining Areas (Conditions)
asked the Prime Minister when the Bill for the improvement of conditions in mining areas and for the future ordering of the coal industry will be introduced?
I cannot add anything to the answer which I gave on the 25th March last, to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln
Is it still the policy of the Government to deal with this matter?
Yes, certainly.
Profiteering Act
Bell Spinning Company, Oldham
asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Bell Spinning Company, of Oldham, announced a dividend of 533⅓ per cent, per annum to be paid for the past half year; and whether, in view of the high cost of living, he proposes to deal with this case?
asked the Prime Minister if he has seen the Report concerning the dividends paid by the Bell Spinning Company, Oldham; if he is aware that the dividends announced at Wigan was one of 533⅓ per cent. per annum to be paid for the half year; if he is aware that the same company paid 200 per cent. six months ago; if he is aware that the Times Spinning Company, Middleton, paid 20s.' interest for the quarter in its 10s. shares, which represents 800 per cent. per annum; if he is aware that three months ago this company's dividend was 600 per cent., and six months ago 400 per cent., and that the company's paying such extraordinary dividends is the cause of so much unrest in the textile workers' trade in the various parts of Lancashire, demanding an advance of 60 per cent.; and if he intends taking any action in the matter?
I understand that the statement as to the dividend declared by the Bell Spinning Company, of Oldham, is correct, but I am unable to say whether the other statements made in the question of the hon. Member for Plaistow are accurate. I am calling the attention of the Central Committee under the Profiteering Act to these cases.
In the event of the facts being found to be correct, will the right hon. Gentleman recommend a prosecution?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the share Capital of that particular mill only bears about one-tenth part relation to the actual capital of the Company?
Will the right hon. Gentleman see, especially having regard to what has been said, that this firm is not allowed to write this off by way of a bonus issue amongst its shareholders, or in any way get rid of its profits, that will prevent the Government getting excess profits?
All these questions clearly indicate the necessity of full inquiry into the circumstances before any reply is given.
When the right hon. Gentleman is making that inquiry, will he endeavour to find out how many shares are held by the workmen themselves—a great many, I think?
I hope a large number are so held.
Budget Proposals
Petrol
asked the Minister of Transport whether he is now in a position to state what proportion of motor vehicles are now running on benzol?
There are no actual figures showing the proportion of motor vehicles now running on benzol, but on the best information available it is estimated that at least one-tenth use benzol, or benzol mixed with other non-dutiable fuels.
Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer refer to industrial or private vehicles?
The question says motor vehicles, and that question I have answered.
asked whether the Advisory Committee on Motor Taxation presented an Interim Report in favour of the continuance of petrol taxation; and, if so, if he will say why this was suppressed?
No question of suppression of a Report arises. The Committee, early in their investigations, indicated their preference for a Petrol Tax in an Interim Report. I think I may say that we all have that preference if it is a practicable one, but upon further consideration the Committee decided not to report in favour of a Petrol Tax, for the reasons given in their Final Report on taxation.
Will my right hon. Friend publish the Report if he does not wish to suppress it which was in favour of petrol taxation, and will he publish any communications made by him to that Committee?
Yes.
Has the right hon. gentleman received a detailed scheme in connection with the taxation of tyres?
Yes, Sir, I have.
Motor Vehicles (Mirrors)
asked whether in any amendment of the Acts relating to the use of motor vehicles he will make the carrying of mirrors enabling a view of overtaking traffic to be obtained by the driver compulsory?
The point referred to in my Noble Friend's question will be considered by the Departmental Committee on the Taxation and Regulation of Road Vehicles.
Peace Treaties
Reparation Commission
asked the Prime Minister whether the Reparation Commission will from time to time issue a balance sheet showing details of the receipts from enemy countries against the amounts due from them?
I understand that the Reparation Commission contemplates the periodical publication of accounts on the lines indicated in the question. But under the Peace Treaty a considerable interval will elapse before the total liabilities of the enemy countries can be finally determined.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any indication as to the approximate date of the first balance sheet?
No, Sir; not at present.
Montenegro
asked the Prime Minister, with reference to his statement that pending negotiations between the Italian and the Serb-Croat-Slovene Governments may be expected to determine the status of Montenegro as part of the Serb-Croat-Slovene kingdom, whether he is aware that there has been no decision by Montenegro to surrender her sovereignty by becoming incorporated in the Serb-Croat-Slovene kingdom; whether the royal Government of Montenegro will be represented at the negotiations referred to by which her fate is to be determined; and for what reason the repeated pledges of his Majesty's Government that free self-determination would not be denied to Montenegro are now to be thus violated?
The future status of Montenegro will not be determined without the consent of all the Allies, whose endeavour it will be to find a solution in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants so far as it is possible to ascertain them. Whether the views of the Montenegrins would be correctly represented by the Royal Montenegrin Government is a point that will doubtless be considered.
Does the right hon. Gentleman adhere to the answer he gave last week in which he said the question would be decided by negotiations between Italy and the Czecho-Slovak Government?
I do not recall the exact affect of the answer. I do not think I said definitely that would be the only consideration.
asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that the Treaty of London, 1915, recognises the sovereign independence of Montenegro, in as much as those parts of the Adriatic coast pertaining to Montenegro are expressly excluded from neutralisation; and, in view of the fact that it has now been decided to in corporate Montenegro in the Serb-Croat-Slovene kingdom without the consent of the Montenegrin Government and without consulting the Montenegrin people, on what date was it decided by the Allies that the independence of Montenegro should no longer be respected as it was in 1915; and what was the reason for this change in policy?
No decision has yet been reached with regard to the future of Montenegro. The fact that Montenegro is referred to as an independent country in the Treaty of London does not constitute a guarantee of her independence on the part of the signatories to that Treaty. The conclusion of the War left Montenegro without an effective Government. The question of her future status was one of the problems which faced the Peace Conference. In considering it the Allies were bound by no guarantees, and are endeavouring to arrive at an impartial solution.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there was no less effective government in Montenegro at the end of the War than there was in Belgium, and can he give any reason why it should be treated on different lines?
I think the case is different.
Why has the principle de minimis non curat lex no application to the dealings of the Allies with this petty principality?
asked the Prime Minister whether the Allies, in deciding to destroy the independence of Monte negro, which was recognised by the Treaty of London in 1915, base this policy on the precedent afforded by the action of Germany towards Belgium in 1914; whether the American Government has been consulted in regard to this policy and is a consenting party thereto; whether His Majesty's Government is still in diplomatic relations through Sir George Graham at the embassy in Paris with the government of the King of Montenegro whom it has been decided to depose; and whether the royal government of Montenegro has been officially informed of the decision to incorporate their country in the Serb-Croat-Slovene kingdom, and that the precise status it is to hold in that kingdom is to be decided by negotiations between that kingdom and Italy in which Montenegro itself is to have no voice.
As the future status of Montenegro has not yet been decided, the first, second, and last parts of the question do not arise. Diplomatic relations are still maintained between Sir George Grahame and King Nicholas of Montenegro.
Are we still paying the subvention to the King of Montenegro and his hangers-on in Paris?
I did not know we ever were. I should like notice.
Togoland, Cameroons, and Tanganyika (Mandates)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Mandates for Togoland, the Cameroons, and Tanganyika Territory have been completed; whether they will be submitted to the Council of the League of Nations for approval, and, if so, when; whether the terms of the Mandate will be identical in the case of the areas of these three ex-German Colonies allotted to France, Great Britain, and Belgium as mandatories, respectively; whether the temporary administrations in these ex-German Colonies have any legal right or power to effect changes in the law of custom of the Colonies which would be repugnant to Article 22 of the Covenant of the Treaty of Versailles; and whether, on the publication of the Mandate, any Acts or new laws so repugnant will be declared null and void?
As the final form of the instruments defining the Mandates for Togoland, the Cameroons, and the Tanganyika Territory have not yet been completed, it is not possible to say whether those instruments will be identical. Upon their approval by the Supreme Council, they will be submitted to the Council of the League of Nations, in accordance with the Treaty.
Why is it necessary that they should go before the Supreme Council at all?
In all these matters it is the Supreme Council which defines the Treaty. I understand the principle decided was that it should be submitted.
Is not the Treaty with Germany already defined and ratified?
Yes, but by the Treaty the Allies were to distribute the Mandates.
In the meantime, how are these territories being administered? Are they being administered merely as Colonies or as trustee estates?
They are being administered, I believe, in trust, and they are being administered by the Governments to whom they have been mandated.
Hungary
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state what the action of this country will be in the event of no Hungarian Government being found willing to sign a Peace Treaty which detaches 3½ million Magyars from their present allegiance without conceding one single plebiscite; and whether he can see his way to follow the precedent established in the case of our late enemy, Germany, which has been granted three plebiscites?
The hon. and gallant Member asks an hypothetical question. It is contrary to the established practice to answer questions of this nature. I have no reason whatever to anticipate the contingency contemplated.
Pre-War Pensions
Cabinet Decision (Increased Provision)
asked the Prime Minister if he is now in a position to say what relief he will give to the old police pensioners who retired before the 1st April, 1919?
asked whether he is yet in a position to say when he expects to receive the Report of the Committee appointed to consider the necessitous cases of pre-War pensioners?
asked whether the Report of the Committee examining the question of pensions of ex-Government employees, such as police, ex-service men who retired before August, 1914, etc., may be expected before the Whitsuntide adjournment; and whether, in view of the urgency, an Interim Report dealing with the most necessitous cases can be issued at an early date?
asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the hardship caused by delay in executive action to relieve many old and deserving public servants as, for example, ex-Police constable Pippen, of Brislington, now incapable of work, who, after 24 years' service in the Somerset Police, has to support an invalid wife and family on a pension of 12s. 10½d. per week; and can he now announce the decision of the Cabinet Committee which has been considering such hard cases?
The Government have decided to relieve certain exceptional cases of hardship among pre-War pensioners due, for example, to age or infirmity, by granting an increase of pension to help the pensioner whose means are small to meet the increased cost of living, and to mitigate the effects of the reduced purchasing power of his pre-War pension. The relief will apply to pre-War pensioners aged 60 years and over, or retired for disability, whose total means (earned and unearned), inclusive of pension, does not exceed £200 per annum in the case of a married, and £150 per annum in the case of a single pensioner. For this purpose, a widower with children under the age of 16 dependent on him will be treated as married. Widows in receipt of pensions granted in respect of services rendered by deceased husbands will be granted the increase at the age of 40.
Subject to these over-riding conditions, a pensioner (married or single) with a pension of £50 a year or less will have his pension increased by 50 per cent. A pensioner with a pension of £51 to £100 single, or £51 to £130 married, will have his pension increased by 40 per cent. and a pensioner with a pension of £100 to £150 single, or £130 to £200 married will have his pension increased by 30 per cent.
The Government have also decided to give similar relief to such officers and men of the Navy and Army as have in the past been disabled by peace-time injuries and are pensioners.
Subject to the necessary legislative sanction being obtained, the increases will take effect as from 1st April, 1920.
With regard to the Irish Constabulary, will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the fact that some of these men are out of employment, by reason of their being ex-policemen, will be taken into consideration as one of the grounds for increased pensions?
Under the scheme they will be treated exactly like other pensioners, but any special point should be put to the office concerned.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it applies to age and infirmity or age or infirmity?
It begins at 60 and there are special cases of disability.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give any idea of the probable cost of these changes?
It is impossible to name the exact figure, but I am afraid it will be something like £2,000,000
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his statement will bring a message of comfort and hope to thousands of men throughout the land?
Will the same rules that apply to the Royal Irish Constabulary as apply to the Metropolitan Police?
I think they are all Government pensions, and if so they are in the same position.
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the information collected from the various Government Departments for the Committee inquiring into the position of pre-war pensioners will be published, and when it will be published?
This question was answered on Tuesday last, and appears in the OFFICIAL REPORT of that date.
Channel Tunnel
asked whether any statement can be made as to the present position of affairs with regard to the Channel Tunnel?
The Cabinet have not yet been able to consider the question, but hope to do so shortly.
Island of Taboga
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the report that the United States Government have seized the island of Taboga, the property of the Government of Panama, for the purpose of erecting fortifications; whether, in view of the desire of the Government to protect the rights of small nationalities, a protest will be made to the United States; and whether the matter can be referred to the League of Nations?
The United States Government informed the Government of Panama in November, 1918, that they were entitled by Treaty to erect defences on the island of Taboga, for the purpose of protecting the approaches to the Panama Canal. The Government of Panama protested, and it was eventually agreed to leave the matter in abeyance until after the signing of the Treaty of Versailles, the United States Government reserving the right to build a signal station on the island in the meantime. I do not know whether or not this station has been built.
In the circumstances, the matter does not appear to be one in which His Majesty's Government can properly intervene, and it is for the Government of Panama to refer the question to the League of Nations, if they think fit.
Will the Leader of the House say why we objected to the French occupying Frankfort while we made no protest against the United States occupying an island belonging to a small nation?
There is no analogy. As regards the enforcement of the German Treaty, our objection was to any Ally acting separately.
Alternative Vote
asked whether the Government will introduce a Bill to provide for the alternative Vote?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply which I gave on the 31st March to a question on this subject by the hon. and gallant Member for Kincardine and Western.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Minister for War recently pledged himself at a meeting at Glasgow that such a Bill should be introduced?
I was not aware of it.
Are we to understand that the Government approve of the return of Members by a minority of votes
The reply which I gave was that the Government did not propose to take any action.
Poland
Allied Powers (Assistance)
asked whether any of the Allied or Associated Powers are supplying the Polish Government with money or munitions; if so, which Powers; and whether His Majesty's Government was consulted by the Polish Government before the recent offensive was launched against Russia?
As regards the first part of the question, I can add nothing to the answer given on the 6th May to a question by the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeen Central. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative.
Are we in any way encouraging Poland at the present moment, and is it a fact that a telegram has been sent by His Majesty congratulating General Pilsudski —[HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order!"]— on the re-incarnation of Poland, or in terms to that effect?
Is not Poland strong and able enough to look after herself without the intervention of any other nation?
As I have said many times, we take no responsibility one way or the other. With regard to the second supplementary question, if it be to be put at all, it should after notice has been given.
Frontiers
asked the Prime Minister what steps have been taken by the Supreme Council of the Allied Powers to define the eastern and south-eastern frontiers of Poland; and whether, with a view to preventing further loss of life and material in Central Europe, steps can be taken to settle the boundaries between Poland and Russia by arbitration or by reference to the League of Nations?
The hon. and gallant Member is no doubt aware that a provisional eastern frontier for Poland has been laid down already. It has not yet been possible for the Allies to exercise the right given them by Article 87 of the Treaty to determine these frontiers definitely. As regards the second part of the question, no useful purpose would be served by taking, at the present moment, the action proposed.
Do I understand, from the answer to the second part of the question, that the Government propose to do nothing except to allow a definite war in Central Europe? Have not we had enough of war and bloodshed?
Yes, quite enough; we are not having any there at present.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Government accepts responsibility for the telegram which has been sent to Marshal Pilsudsky?
The hon. and gallant Member should give notice of that question.
Supreme Council
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government favours the suggestion that the Supreme Council in any form should be made permanent either as co-equal or superior in authority to the Council of the League of Nations?
The answer is in the negative.
Germany, Neutral Zone (Troops)
asked the Prime Minister what decision has been communicated to Germany as to her right to send troops into the neutral zone?
By a decision of the Supreme Council of 8th August, 1919, the German Government were permitted to retain in the neutral zone a force consisting of 20 battalions, 10 squadrons and 2 batteries until 10th April, 1920. At the San Remo Conference it was decided to grant an extension of this period, but to insist upon a progressive reduction of the occupying force.
Does that apply to the military police force as well as to the Imperial forces?
The Committee of Control advised the Council as to what is a military force. It does not apply to police.
Is it not a fact that the German police are trained and drilled in every respect as efficiently as ordinary soldiers?
Ireland
Government of Ireland Bill
37 and 39.
asked the Prime Minister (1) what Minister of the Crown will, after the passing of the Government of Ireland Bill, answer questions relating to Ireland in this House;
(2) whether it is proposed to have an Irish Office or an Agent General for Ireland in London if the Government of Ireland Bill passes into law?
I think that questions of this kind can be better dealt with after the Bill has been considered by the House.
asked the Prime Minister whether Irish Members of the Imperial Parliament will be eligible to serve on Standing Committees or Private Bill Committees dealing with purely British affairs after the Government of Ireland Bill has passed?
The answer is in the affirmative.
Condition of Country (Reports)
asked the Prime Minister when the promised Reports on the condition of Ireland will be laid upon the Table of the House?
A review of events in Ireland since January last is in course of preparation. This Report will be presented immediately on completion, and subsequently regular monthly Reports will be rendered for the information of the House.
Can my right hon. Friend indicate when the first Report will be ready?
I am sorry I cannot.
Will the Reports be prepared ex parte by Dublin Castle?
I do not know what the hon. and gallant Gentleman means. They will be Reports giving as accurately as they can be given analyses of the facts.
Will they include loss of life to civilians in collisions with the military and police, and will they be impartial?
They will be impartial. What they will contain will be judged the better after they have been seen.
asked the Prime Minister what advice the Government have received from the Lord Lieutenant and the Irish Government which has induced them to believe that the condition of Ireland is such that a Home Rule Bill is more likely to succeed now than it would have been in November, 1918?
The Lord Lieutenant and my right hon. Friend who was then Chief Secretary (Mr. Macpherson) had approved of the introduction of the Government of Ireland Bill before that course was decided upon by the Government.
Ex-Service Men
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received from the Paulton and other branches of Comrades of the Great War resolutions expressing grave concern at the news which reaches ex-service men in this country from many parts of Ireland of the condi- tions of persecution under which ex-service men are living in that country, and the danger to their wives and families; and whether he will inform the House what steps are being taken to give immediate protection to these men who went, without any compulsion, to fight side by side in the War with their comrades of Great Britain and the overseas parts of the Empire?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the latter part, I am unable to add anything to the replies which I gave on the 6th May.
Would it be possible to say what steps are being taken
No; I cannot say. I mentioned that steps were being taken by the Departments.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a large number of the men who are fighting against the authorities in Ireland are themselves ex-soldiers?
Anti-Aircraft Defence
asked the Prime Minister under which Government Department the control and administration of anti-aircraft personnel in the metropolitan and the coastal area, respectively, is vested; how many officers and men are employed in these duties in both those areas, separately, and at what annual cost; and whether the whole matter can be reviewed in order to clear up existing misconceptions and to decide as to whether it is necessary to maintain permanent anti-aircraft personnel in the metropolitan area and not elsewhere, or vice versâ, or to enlist officers and men for this duty on terms of service similar to the Territorial Army where required.
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. Antiaircraft personnel is controlled and administered by the War Office and the Air Ministry, the former being responsible for the personnel of the ground defences as distinct from air units. The numbers of military personnel at present employed in these duties are 77 officers and 288 other ranks (inclusive of depots and anti-aircraft schools): of these, 35 officers and 142 other ranks are in and around the metropolitan area. The annual cost of the total number employed is £103,000. There is no Royal Air Force personnel specially engaged in these duties at present. As regards the last part of the question the whole subject of anti-aircraft defence is under review with a view to confining ourselves, for the present, to training and research, with corresponding reductions of establishments and to defining the future policy for the defence of the Empire.
Is there any truth in the statement that the staff of the anti-aircraft defence of London has remained unchanged since the signing of the Armistice?
No, I do not think so. At any rate, it seems to me that the number of officers and men provided for this extremely important branch of any defensive organisation which may be set up in this country is not at all on an exaggerated or extravagant scale.
Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why it should be necessary to keep 77 officers and only 200 men?
I presume it is because the work in question is largely in the nature of research and experiment.
Would not the solution of the question be to make the Germans hand over all their aeroplanes at once, and so remove the danger?
At any rate, we ought not to lose touch with the means of protecting ourselves from aerial attack, and still less ought we to cut ourselves off from even pursuing the theory of defence against potential aerial attack.
Is it not a fact that this force to-day is much more efficient than at any time during the War?
You are a better judge than I am.
Royal Navy
Admiralty Employes
asked the Prime Minister if last year he sent a letter to the Admiralty enforcing the necessity of economy; if he is aware that the number of civilians in Admiralty employ at home were 56,000 prior to the War in 1914 and 84,000 on the 1st March, 1920; and if he will inquire into the necessity for 50 percent. more Admiralty employés now the major part of the German Fleet no longer exists?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative The figures are as stated, but in order to minimise the hardships consequent upon too drastic reduction since the termination of hostilities, efforts have been made to find employment for a considerable number of workmen by the construction of oil-carrying ships and other vessels of a merchant ship type.
Are not a very large number of these men at the present time engaged in work of an unproductive character?
No; I think that is quite unfounded. One of the greatest difficulties we have had is in trying to make the inevitable hardship as little as possible in the case of men who have grown up in the Government service. All we are doing is to give them employment to whatever extent we can.
Is the keeping of a large number of men in the employ of the Government to be permanent?
No, it is certainly not a permanent policy. No one knows better than my right hon. Friend how great would be the hardship in turning these men adrift who have always been in Government employment, and have grown up in the expectation of its continuance.
Albania (Consular Officer)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to support consular representatives in Albania at an early date; and what means are at present available for obtaining information as to events in that country from impartial sources?
His Majesty's Government are arranging to send a Consular Officer to Valona with as little delay as possible. There is at present no British representative in Albania. Reports as to events there have been received from His Majesty's Ministers at Belgrade and Athens.
Controlled Industries (Working Expenses)
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the resentment felt by the taxpayer that decisions to increase the wages bill and expenses of working of subsidised and Government-controlled or nationalised industries and departments by many millions of pounds are arrived at by secret negotiations from which the public are excluded; and will he in the future refer any decision to increase the working expenses of any such industry or department to this House for ratification where the amount at issue involves more than £1,000,000?
With regard to the first part of the question, I am unable to add anything to the reply given on the 22nd March to my Noble Friend the Member for Battersea. As regard the latter part of the question, the fullest publicity is arranged for consistent with safeguarding the chances of a reasonable settlement.
Transport
Railway Disputes
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a new form of strike that has occurred on some of the railway systems and known as the work-to-rule strike; whether, when the National Wages Board, from which any representation of the travelling public was excluded, was set up, it was agreed by the trades union representatives that no strike should take place before the dispute had been before the Board for a month; and, in the face of this breach of faith, is he prepared to resume secret negotiations for a further increase in wages to railway employés?
I have been asked to answer this question. I am aware that at certain places some of the men employed on the railways are, contrary, as I understand, to the advice of their unions, not doing the usual amount of work. In adopting this course the men have taken the law into their own hands, and are acting in distinct contravention of the agreement with the unions, which was to the effect that no strike should take place on any matter falling within the purview of the Central Wages Board until a month after that matter had been referred to the National Wages Board. As regards the third part, the recent claims for increased wages for railway employés have been referred by the Central Wages Board to the National Wages Board in accordance with the agreed procedure.
Lambeth Borough Council (Roads)
asked the Minister of Transport, whether his attention has been called to the dangerous condition of Kennington Road and most of the other main and side roads repairable by the Lambeth Borough Council; whether any grant from the Road Fund has been made to the above-mentioned Council, and, if so, how it has been expended; and whether he will bring pressure to bear on the Council to carry out their statutory duties in regard to the roads?
I am aware of the condition of the Kennington Road and of other roads repairable by the Lambeth Borough Council. A grant of £50,000 has been made to the Borough Council towards a special road improvement programme estimated to cost £62,578. This programme includes the repairing of Kennington Road, the cost of which is estimated at £13,220. In addition, I am informed that the Borough Council are raising for highway purposes, out of rates for the current year, a sum of approximately £79,000.
Booking Accommodation, Waterloo Station
asked the Minister of Transport whether his attention has been called to the inconvenience suffered by travellers to suburban stations other than Hurst Park by the fact that no separate booking accommodation for such stations was available at Waterloo Station on 1st May; whether such travellers had to join long queues of racegoers and in many cases lost their trans and connections and suffered long delay in consequence; and whether better arrangements for booking can be made on such occasions both in the interests of racegoers and of the general public?
My attention has not been previously called to this matter, and I am informed that the railway company have not received any complaint in regard to passengers losing their trains and connections on the day in question. It will be appreciated that the day was exceptional, being a Saturday and May Day. Separate booking offices were not provided for the race traffic, as the special fares which were in operation for race meetings before the War are not now in force, and ordinary tickets are issued at the usual booking offices. Two additional booking offices with two windows in each were, however, provided on the day in question.
Motor Cars (Government Departments)
79, 80 & 81.
asked the Minister of Transport, (1) what number of motor vehicles for the conveyance of passengers are now in the pool of cars instituted by his department; where the cars are at present garaged; the rent demanded for this garage accommodation;
(2) how many officials were carried by the motor vehicles in the pool of cars instituted by his department; what car mileage was run; how much petrol was consumed during the month of March;
(3) how many Government Departments have availed themselves of the pool of motor vehicles organised under the Ministry of Transport; and whether he can say which departments still keep cars under their own control.
The number of cars maintained in the pool is 25. Two garages are used, a main garage comprising a portion of the premises at Mass Cars, Limited, Bloemfontein Avenue, Uxbridge Road, W., and a sub-garage at Richmond Mews, Whitehall. The rents for the two garages are respectively £325 and £100 per annum. During the month of March, 2,191 officials were carried by the motor vehicles in the pool of cars, the mileage amounted to 28,213 miles, and the petrol consumed 2,255 gallons. Seventeen Government Departments availed themselves of the pool of motor vehicles organised under the Ministry of Transport. One car is maintained by the General Post Office, and cars are maintained by the Admiralty, War Office and Air Minstry.
Is there any prospect of those other Departments doing away with their separate fleets of motor cars in the interests of economy?
One car is maintained by the General Post Office by arrangement with the Ministry of Transport as the most economical way. As to the other Departments they do not maintain fleets of cars.
Did not the right hon. Gentleman say in his reply that the Admiralty had got cars, and we were told the other day they had nine or ten?
I am afraid I do not know what cars they maintain.
Can the right hon. Gentleman not take steps as Minister of Transport to draw the attention of the Departments to the pool of cars, and to the necessity of restricting these other cars?
This question was carefully considered by the Cabinet, and all the Departments in the interests of economy both in the management and use of the cars, draw their cars from the Ministry of Transport pool with the exception of the Post Office, where it was considered more economical for them to retain their own car, and the three fighting services the Cabinet decided should maintain their own cars.
Was there any pool of cars before the War?
Before the War did not Ministers provide their own cars?
These are not cars for Ministers. No Minister is allotted a car.
They use them.
They are practically not used by Ministers.
Munitions Disposal Board(Sales)
asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that great sales of State goods have been effected by the Disposal Board in which the negotiation of such sales was conducted by a member of the Disposal Board who himself is closely related to the principal of one of the leading firms with which he had to negotiate; and whether he will take immediate steps to prevent officials being placed in this invidious position, and to restore the rules of the British Civil Service under which such proceedings have heretofore been recognised as contrary to the traditions of the public service?
I am unaware of any sales having been negotiated by a member of the Disposal Board in the circumstances suggested.
Has not the right hon. Gentleman's attention been called to the fact that an official has been placed in this invidious position of having to negotiate great contracts with his brother, and, under these circumstances, will he give a ruling as to whether that kind of policy is going to persist?
If the hon. and gallant Member refers to the case which he has raised several times in this House, the facts are not as he describes them. The gentleman in question had no power to negotiate the sale at all.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that this gentleman was specially sent to conduct these sales at St. Omer, and did he in fact sign the contract, and did he decide what dues were to be alloted on this contract? If the right hon. Gentleman is not informed, will he give an early day for discussion?
I can only repeat what I said in the House before. My Noble Friend the Minister of Munitions informs me that the firm in question had not been invited to tender at all, but he himself was dissatisfied with the prices offered, and gave instructions that they should be asked to tender. The gentleman referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend had no power whatever to sign a contract.
Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the firm in question was or was not "warned off the course" because they had been found tampering with Government officials by offering them bribes?
Does the hon. Member mean the firm to whom the contract was finally given?
No, the firm who were negotiating.
I do not know.
Fishing Industry
asked the Prime Minister when the Bill dealing with the development of the fishing industry will be introduced?
I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for South-West Hull on the 26th of April.
National Health Insurance Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the necessity of getting the National Health Insurance Bill on the Statute Book at as early a date as possible, in order that it may come into operation on 5th July, 1920, he will take steps to secure that the Bill shall pass through its remaining stages in the House of Commons as soon as may be?
asked the Prime Minister if it is the intention of the Government to put the general provisions of the National Health Insurance Bill into operation upon 1st July, 1920; and, if so, will he state when the Bill is to come before the House for its Third Reading
It is intended to bring the Bill into operation on 5th July, 1920, and this will be possible if it passes quickly through its remaining stages. We hope that it will be possible to get the Report and Third Reading stages in the House this week.
Mining Royalties (Nationalisation)
asked the Prime Minister when the Bill for the nationalisation of mining royalties will be introduced?
I am not yet able to announce a date when this Bill will be introduced.
Agriculture (Government Policy)
asked the Prime Minister when the Bill dealing with security of tenure in agriculture and the development of the production of foodstuffs will be introduced?
I can add nothing to the answer which I gave on Thursday last to a question by my hon. and gallant Friend, the Member for Daventry.
In view of the anxiety of the agricultural industry as to the proposals of the Government cannot the Bill be introduced before Whitsuntide?
I really can add nothing to the answer.I gave last week. It will be introduced as quickly as we can settle it.
Will there be a separate Bill for Scotland?
I must ask for notice.
American Shipping Companies
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that there is a Bill at present before the United States Congress, one clause of which exempts all American shipping companies from excess profits taxation for a period of 10 years; whether he is aware that another clause of the Bill provides that railways are to grant lower rates of freight for goods to be exported in American vessels; whether he is aware that determined efforts are being made in the United States to create a great mercantile marine for the purpose of carrying the whole of the overseas trade of the United States and, by protective legislation and customs duties, to discriminate against British and other foreign-owned vessels; and, in view of this serious competition with which British ship owners and merchants are threatened, can he state what measures the British Government propose to take to protect British industries and shipping?
The attention of His Majesty's Government has been drawn to press reports with regard to the alleged Bill, and His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington has been instructed to send home copies.
Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to advise legislation similar to that passed in the United States on the line that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery to our American friends?
It may be the sincerest form of flattery, but we shall judge it by whether or not we consider it in our interest.
Mesopotamia
asked the Prime Minister whether any arrangements that are now in contemplation for the development of minerals, oil, and agriculture in Mesopotamia under the British mandate by any combine, trust, or corporation, in any way abrogate or reduce the rights of the British Government as mandatory Power being responsible for and in control of such development?
No, Sir.
Members' Speeches
asked the Prime Minister whether, with a view to the acceleration of public business and to the prevention of a waste of Parliamentary time, he will consider the desirability of taking such steps as may be necessary to impose a limit on the length of Members' speeches in the House?
The Government are not prepared at present to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.
Would it affect the right hon. Gentleman's judgment if he knew that twelve private Members, neither Ministers nor Privy Councillors, last Session occupied 1,749 columns of the OFFICIAL REPORT?
I am glad to find that the crime is not only on the part of Ministers.
Finland
asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that at least two ships have recently conveyed arms and munitions from Germany to Finland for the use of the Finnish White Guards; whether this act is in contravention of the Treaty of Versailles; and, if so, what action does His Majesty's Government intend to take?
The answer to the first two parts of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the last part of the question, the Allied representatives at Helsingfors have been instructed to draw the attention of the Finnish Government to this breach of the Treaty.
Was the removal of the British Minister at Helsingfors, Lord Acton, due to representations on the part of the Finnish Government that he was out of sympathy with their terrorist methods?
Obviously that is a question of which notice ought to be given.
Was the Government aware that these arms were being sent from Germany to Finland or was it done by the Germans without consultation with us?
I think it was done without consultation, but we were aware.
National Registration
asked the Prime Minister if he has seen the Report of the Sub-committee of the Departmental Committee on National Registration which was appointed on the 17th January, 1918; if he is aware that it contains a great amount of valuable information on the subject of registration; and whether he will consider the advisability of presenting it to Parliament and of having it published?
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. Yes, Sir; I have gladly availed myself of the contents of the document referred to in connection with the question of the reorganisation of the existing births and deaths registration service. It largely consists, however, of material which was prepared for consideration by the Committee and the Department. It is not therefore suitable, in my opinion, for publication, and I doubt whether in any event the expense of publication could be justified.
Territorial Army
asked the Prime Minister when the Bill dealing with the organisation of the Territorial Army will be introduced
My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I can add nothing at present to my reply on 1st March last to the hon. and gallant Member for Tradeston.
Labour (Minimum Wages and Hours)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce and pass this Session the Bills dealing with the mini mum wage and regulating the hours of labour in industry?
I have been asked to reply to this question. So far as the Minimum Rates of Wages Commission Bill is concerned, I am not yet in a position to make a statement. With regard to the Hours of Employment Bill, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply give to the hon. and gallant Member for Forfarshire on Monday last, a copy of which I am sending him.
Are negotiations still in progress as to the inclusion of agriculture?
I said it was under consideration, and it is still being Considered.
Budapest (Food Supplies)
asked the Prime Minister whether 12 trucks of food supplies for the British, American, and Belgian women resident in Budapest are detained by the Jugo-Slavs; whether this food has been bought and paid for by British money for our own necessitous people; and whether, since this food has been held up for, several weeks, he will make urgent representations that it be no longer detained?
I am aware that certain quantities of foodstuffs have been purchased in Yugoslavia for the British, American, and Belgian communities in Budapest. Money has been advanced for these purchases, which it is hoped to recover eventually by re-sale. Representations to the Serb-Croat-Slovene Government have so far failed to secure permission for the export of these supplies, but negotiations are not concluded, and latest reports give reason to hope that it may be possible to secure their despatch to Hungary.
Would it not be possible to accelerate the negotiations, since this food has been held up for a considerable time, six weeks now, and the need for food in Budapest is very great?
My hon. and gallant Friend may be quite sure that everything His Majesty's Government can do will be done to secure expedition.
Business of the House
Whitsuntide Recess
May I ask the Leader of the House if he can give us any information about the Whitsuntide Recess?
We propose to adjourn for the Whitsuntide Recess on Friday, 21st May, or possibly Thursday, 20th May, and to resume on the following Tuesday week, 1st June.
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any indication of the business that will be taken on resuming?
It is not usual to ask at this stage.
Shall we have an opportunity of knowing what the business will be before we adjourn?
Certainly; that is always given.
Eastern Europe (Military Operations)
I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House to call attention to the following matter of definite and urgent public importance, namely, the encouragement given by the Government to aggressive military operations in Eastern Europe and their refusal to submit the matter to the judgment of the imminent meeting of the Council of the League of Nations.
The hon. Gentleman asked leave to move the Adjournment last Thursday on what is practically the same proposition. The wording last Thursday was, "the failure of the Government to withhold encouragement," and the wording to-day is "the encouragement given," but that is a distinction without a difference.
May I submit that an entirely new circumstance has arisen since I gave notice on Thursday, namely, an official telegram sent to the Commander-in-Chief of the Polish Army?
Even if that were so, the hon and gallant Member would clearly be asking leave to discuss what is substantially the same question.
With very great respect, may I submit that this is a matter of the most urgent public importance, inasmuch as the Council of the League of Nations is about to meet in two days' time? May I submit also that the telegram sent on behalf of the Government introduces an entirely new element of urgency into the matter?
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has interpolated the words "on behalf of the Government," of which he has no proof whatever. The question of submitting the matter to the consideration of the Council of the League of Nations was involved in the Motion for which he asked leave last Thursday, and for which he failed to secure the necessary support. We cannot have the same question discussed twice in the one week.
May I submit with due respect that many hon. Members being absent had no notice that the question would be raised last Thursday, and were not in their places to make use of their opportunity to rise in favour of the Motion? Ought not that to weigh with the Chair?
That is entirely a matter of stage management.
Bills Presented
Direct Representatives of the General Medical Council Bill,
"to amend Section 8 of The Medical Act, 1886," presented by Sir HENRY CRAIK; supported by Captain Elliot and Lieut.-Colonel Raw; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 107.]
Milk and Dairies Bill,
"to amend The Milk and Dairies (Consolidation) Act, 1915," presented by Dr. ADDISON; supported by Sir Arthur Boscawen; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 108.]
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee B
reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B: Sir Alfred Mond.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Orders of the Day
Government of Ireland Bill
Considered in Committee [FIRST DAY].
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
Establishment of Parliaments for Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland and a Council of Ireland
CLAUSE 1.—(Establishment of Parliaments of Southern and Northern Ireland.)
"(1) On and after the appointed day there shall be established for Southern Ireland a Parliament to be called the Parliament of Southern Ireland consisting of His Majesty and the House of Commons of Southern Ireland, and there shall be established for Northern Ireland a Parliament to be called the Parliament of Northern Ireland consisting of His Majesty and the House of Commons of Northern Ireland.
"(2) For the purposes of this Act Northern Ireland shall consist of the parliamentary counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry and Tyrone, and the parliamentary boroughs of Belfast and Londonderry, and Southern Ireland shall consist of so much of Ireland as is not comprised within the said parliamentary counties and boroughs."
The Amendment standing first on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Wood Green (Mr. G. Locker-Lampson)—to leave out the words "on and after the appointed day" —and the third Amendment standing in his name, are matters for discussion when we come to Clause 67.
May I ask your ruling? You will notice that it is in the singular. It refers to what is to happen on the appointed day. May I inquire whether the passing now of the words "on the appointed day," in the singular, will preclude the question of two days for the different Parliaments of Ireland being raised later in the Bill?
No. It does not preclude that being raised. I have gone into Clause 67 very carefully with that object in view. The proposal in the name of the hon. Member for East Leyton (Lieut.-Colonel Malone)—to leave out all words from the beginning of Clause 1 to the end of the Bill and to insert the words "on the appointed day there shall be held a General Election in Ireland for the purpose of electing representatives to frame a Constitution for the future government of Ireland "—is rather a matter for a Motion on a Wednesday evening discussion than for an Amendment to this Bill. The next Amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes)—to leave out the word "Southern"—as it stands, with its consequential Amendment, is equivalent to a negative of the Clause, and it can be dealt with on the question to omit the Clause when we come to the end of it. The Amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith)—to leave out the word "Southern"—with its consequential Amendment, which provides for exclusion by county option, and the Schedule which appears on the Paper as the first Schedule, is an alternative proposition, and is in order.
I beg to move in Sub-section (1) to leave out the word "Southern" ["established for Southern Ireland"].
This Amendment undoubtedly raises in a sense a Second Reading issue, but it raised it not in the shape of a direct negative, but in the shape of an alternative proposal. None the less it is impossible for us to conceal from ourselves the fact that this alternative proposal really involves the determination of this Clause which is, if I may so describe it, the creative and governing Clause of the Bill, and the issue between what has always hitherto been understood as Home Rule— so understood by Nationalists, by Unionists, by the Liberal party and by the Labour party—and the alternative or substituted scheme put forward in this Bill. It is of the greatest importance that at the earliest possible moment the Committee should be invited to decide between these two alternatives, for they involve the acceptance or repudiation of a principle, the recognition or non-recognition of which goes down to the very roots of the possibility of an Irish settlement. What is that principle? The principle which is embodied in the Home Rule Act now upon the Statute Book that Ireland should be treated for the purpose of self-government as an entity with a single parliament and a single executive, subject to the provisions of all safeguards, temporary or permanent, that are necessary for the protection of the dissentient minorities.
4.0 P.M.
I have thought it right—in fact, I feel it to be my duty, in view of the part which I have had in the past history of this matter—to ask the Committee to bear with me for a few moments while I give a short historical retrospect. I go back for the purpose to the year 1913. The Parliament Act was then in operation, and we had passed in two successive Sessions, substantially in its present form, the Home Rule Act which is now upon the Statute Book. In the following Session of 1914 the same Bill was passed by this House in substantially the same form, and, whatever action the House of Lords might have taken upon it, it would have become, through the provisions of the Parliament Act, part of the law of the land. Meanwhile a very serious situation had developed in Ireland, particularly in the north and the north-east. Open resistance, and, if necessary, armed resistance, had been threatened by the minority there to the enforcement of such law, if it should ever become the law of the land. While it was my opinion and that of all my colleagues in the Government of that day that the Bill as we proposed it, and as it was modified and amended by this House, provided ample securities for the protection of the Irish minority, yet we were so sensitive to the impolicy of beginning, or attempting to begin, a new era of self-government in that country with a substantial minority in that temper of opposition and even of mutiny to the law, we were determined to take every step in our power to arrive, if possible, at some settlement of the matter. Accordingly, in the autumn of 1913, I, on behalf of my colleagues, entered into informal and confidential communications both with the then Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bonar Law) and the right hon. and learned gentleman who now sits for Belfast (Sir E. Carson) with a view of making some provision for the Ulster minority. Those negotiations, unfortunately, though conducted with good faith—and I gladly acknowledge with an equally ardent and sincere desire for their success on both sides—proved abortive; and accordingly, when in the following Session of 1914 I asked the House for the third time to give a Second Reading to the Home Rule Bill, I used this language. I am quoting from a speech which I made in the House on 9th March, 1914, and the House perhaps will forgive me if I quote my own words, because, not prehaps with undue length, they adequately describe the serious situation with which we were then confronted: would have been intervening two General Elections in Great Britain and one election in Ireland. Therefore, before the final decision was taken and before inclusion became an automatic result, you would have had between five and six years' experience of the actual operation of Home Rule and you would have had two opportunities for the electors in this country to express their opinion upon it and at least one opportunity for the new electorate of Ireland. That was our proposal, and I will quote one more passage from what I said upon the Third Reading of the Bill on 21st May, 1914. I said: as appears from the Report which Mr. Speaker made on 24th July, announcing its ultimate failure, was the possibility of defining an area to be excluded from the operation of the Government of Ireland Bill; in fact, it was narrowed down to a comparatively small point, but a point upon which neither of the two Irish parties represented felt themselves in a position to give way. Accordingly, that final attempt at an informal and extra Parliamentary solution having failed, the amending Bill was put upon the Paper here for Second Reading on the 30th July, but, in view of the threatening international situation—we were within four days of the actual outbreak of war—its consideration was, by general consent, adjourned, and never, in fact, resumed.
The Home Rule under the operation of the Parliament Act became law, but its operation was suspended, and properly suspended in the circumstances, till after the termination of the War. I have gone at some length, I hope not undue length, into the history of those transactions in order that the Committee may realise what was the position when the Act now upon the Statute Book became part of the law of the land; and I may add, to complete the historical part of the narrative, that when two years later, in 1916, after the deplorable rising in Dublin, a further attempt was made through the mediation of my right hon. Friend the then Minister of Munitions, now Prime Minister, to bring the parties together and arrive at some basis of settlement, negotiations proceeded upon the same lines. I say the same lines, and I repeat what I have already said: On the one hand, a single Legislature and an Executive for Ireland as a whole, and, on the other, the potential—it might be provisional or it might be permanent, but for the time being at any rate the potential— exclusion, the actual exclusion, of certain specified parts of the province of Ulster. I do not hesitate to say that up to that time—I am speaking now of 1916—any proposed settlement with two Parliaments, one for the North and the other for the South of Ireland, would have been repudiated with equal energy and conviction both by the late Mr. Redmond and by my right hon. and learned Friend opposite. No such idea ever entered into anybody's mind.
Subsequently, the Irish Convention, very rightly, was called into existence and deliberated a month and hovered upon the verge—I think I may say, without taking an unduly optimistic view of its proceedings, that it hovered more than once upon the verge—of a settlement, but up to the end of the proceedings of that Convention, as appears by the letter of the Prime Minister which was read, I think, in the Debate here on the Second Reading in March of April, 1918, the idea still was to reconcile the bringing into operation of a single Irish Parliament and Executive for Ireland as a whole with the provision of ample safeguard for the dissentient minority if they insisted in remaining, as they always certainly desired to remain—they have never indicated any other view, and I do not think they hold any other view to-day —part and parcel of the United Kingdom. That, I think, is the unvarnished history of the matter.
The Amendment I am putting forward now and which I am going to ask the Committee to adopt goes back to that position. It proposes—as Home Rulers have always proposed for 35 years, since the time of Mr. Parnell, Mr. Gladstone and their successors, to the present day— and it is the root and essence of the matter, and the only thing that will give a real and adequate satisfaction to the permanent Irish sentiment, setting up in Ireland a single Parliament and a single Executive. At the same time it gives in a thoroughly democratic form what is compendiously and conveniently described as county option. It gives to the separate counties, if they are so minded, an opportunity of withdrawing themselves, for the time being at any rate, from the jurisdiction of that new authority, and remaining, as they have hitherto been, and as they have always told us they intended to remain, represented and governed by the Imperial Parliament. Until this Bill was brought in, that has always been the attitude of both parties. Now you have a proposal of a totally different kind. Wherever it came from, it did not originate in Ireland; it was not inspired by Irish ideas; it does not correspond with any Irish necessity; it is an academic device, ingenious, I agree, but remote from any contact with the reality of Irish life and Irish government. As we are in Committee, I am not going to labour a Second Reading point. I put forward, as an alternative to the offer of the Government, the proposal contained in my Amendment. It is the proposal of myself and my colleagues in 1914.
When I compare the two together I see how far they correspond—I will not say to self-determination, a phrase which is a little bit overdone and admits of a great variety of more or less conflicting if not irreconcilable interpretations, particularly in its application to different areas in different parts of the world—but to an atmosphere of Irish opinion and Irish sentiment. On the Second Reading of this Bill, not only was there not one Irish representative of any sort or kind or any shade or complexion to record a vote in favour of it, but we had what I believe to be an unparalleled spectacle in the lifetime of the oldest Parliamentarian here. We had actually the Irish Members of the Government, the Members of the Government who represented Irish constituencies, deliberately abstaining from going into the Division Lobby in support of a Bill affecting the Government of their own country, at the back of which were the names of the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House. I am not going to comment on that. The proposal in this Clause comes before you without the faintest warrant of Irish authority of any sort or kind. The proposal which I am putting forward is one that has been approved in both its forms, though with a difference as to details, by both sections of Irish opinion.
May I correct the right hon. Gentleman? He may remember that we always protested against the limitation of the six years. I remember stating that it was "a sentence of death with a stay of execution."
My right hon. Friend knows perfectly well that his case always was not a separate Parliament for Ulster, but the retention of Ulster under the authority of the Imperial Parliament. The extent in point of area and the duration in point of time were matters for argument. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] They were matters for argument; they were argued at the Buckingham Palace Conference.
We never argued the time.
What is the good of arguing the extent of the area if there is to be no limitation? I quite agree that as regards time there were differences of opinion between the parties, but there was never any contention put forward and it will not be put forward now by my right hon. and learned Friend and his colleagues that, if they had their way in the settlement of this problem, they would set up a separate Parliament in the North of Ireland. It was not their case, it never has been their case, and it never will be their case.
Let hon. Members look at the thing from a lower level, but still from a very important one, namely, in its practical application and its working possibilities. I cannot conceive myself, ingenious as the scheme is which has been put before us, anything more calculated to produce chaos and confusion in Ireland. You have two single Chambers, in both of which, so far as I can discover, minorities must be very inadequately represented. In neither case is there the correction or safeguard of a Second Chamber. You have a wholly unnecessary and expensive duplication of administrative, executive and judicial machinery. You have every temptation and opportunity for friction, and if, as I have always held, as every Home Ruler has always held, and as I hope all who call themselves Home Rulers will be prepared to hold to-day, your object is the attainment, the ultimate attainment, as promptly and as expeditiously as possible of real Irish unity: to that goal all your aims and efforts should be directed. You have the avowal put forward, as a justification for making the Northern Parliament representing, not the whole province of Ulster, but only certain selection counties, in the Debate on the Second Reading by one of the most respected and representative Members of the Ulster party, that he would never have gone into it and would not go into it now except with a firm and fixed intention of making ultimate unity impossible.
The alternative which I have put before the Committee was very fully debated in 1914, was assented to by all my colleagues, by the whole of the party for which I was authorised to speak, and by the constitutional Nationalists and by Mr. Redmond himself. The alternative which is embodied in this and in consequential Amendments gives immediate recognition to the principle of a single Parliament and a single Executive, and, so far, it fulfils the pledge which was made to the Irish people and which was embodied in the Home Rule Act. At the same time it fulfils in the letter and spirit the pledge, equally binding, I agree, which we gave then, and from which I have never shown the slightest disposition to recede, the pledge we gave to Ulster that in no circumstances would we be parties in the coercion of Ulster. It gives a perfectly free voice to the counties of Ulster to determine whether or not they will come under the authority of this new body. I believe that is a fair and most statesmanlike and most practical solution—if solution is to be found or can be found—of this terribly difficult problem. It is quite true that the conditions are far worse to-day than they were in 1914; they are worse than they were in 1916; they are worse even than they were when the Convention broke up in 1918. So bad are they in some of their features, so unexampled even in the dark annals of Irish disorder, that I myself say with the utmost sincerity that I would strain and stretch every faculty of hope—I might almost say of credulity—which I possess to assent to any plan that seemed to me to offer even a ray or glimmer of the possibility of settling this question. It is not a question of a triumph of one or other of the parties or of a combination of parties, but what I wish is that we should come to see daylight in this matter. I cannot, however, come to any other conclusion than that the adoption of the Government plan, which is not supported by any section or school of Irish opinion, would intensify existing difficulties, create new evils, and would be, not a stepping stone, but a barrier to the attainment of ultimate Irish unity.
I do not question for a moment the sincerity of the statement which has just been made by my right hon. Friend, but realising as he does what is the condition of Ireland—I shall not attempt to deny, nor do any of my colleagues, that the condition is, as I have said before, more difficult and probably in many ways more serious than it has ever been before —I do not for a moment question the sincerity of my right hon. Friend in saying that if he could bring his mind to accept it he would gladly adopt any course which would improve the position. I accept that statement. But, as I said on the Second Reading, I was to some extent surprised and distressed to find the attitude which my right hon. Friend takes in regard to this matter. I do not question his sincerity, but I could not listen to his speech to-day, or to his previous speech, without feeling that it was almost pathetic to find how completely he is living in the past, and how little he realises all that has happened in Ireland in the last six years, for much of which he was himself responsible. Is it not really almost melancholy to think that now, in May, 1920, my right hon. Friend is bringing before us again, as his solution of the Irish problem, proposals which he made in March, 1914, and proposals which, when he made them, he told us were the worst of three alternatives, any one of which he would have preferred to that he put forward? Let us try to consider what is the justification for the attitude of my right hon. Friend. He has told us again to-day, as he told us on Second Reading, "You have no Irish support, not a single Irish Member voting for your Bill." That is true, but would he say that there is anyone representing Irish Nationalist opinion anywhere who would accept his alternative? We are deprived of the presence of a small number of Nationalist Members. Were they present, they would give him an answer quickly enough.
It is quite true that our proposal did not receive the support of any Irish Members, but if by any chance the House of Commons were to consider the proposal of my right hon. Friend, there would be this difficulty—I hardly think it would be an improvement—not that Irish Members would abstain, but that Irish Members would vote against the proposal. My right hon. Friend in his historical restrospect was quite accurate, I think, in general outline, but he really forgot, or for the moment he has forgotten, that he did not give any picture at all of what was the real situation. He actually said —it was in regard to that my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) intervened— that this proposal of his received in 1914 a certain measure of support from all sections in the House. Anyone who was a Member of the House at that time would say that when those proposals were taken —and when the House was told that what it was asked to do was to exclude the six counties for the present, when they had shown themselves able to make their feel- ings known and to make an impression on the Government, but that at the end of six years they were to be brought in whether they wished it or not—the answer he got from every section of Unionist opinion was that we would resist that proposal to the utmost of our power. Let me deal with the point of view which my right hon. Friend has taken. He speaks as if this proposal of his were the only possible proposal with any chance of success in Ireland. Surely, whoever else has forgotten it, my right hon. Friend ought not to have forgotten the effort which was made in 1916 to effect a settlement of this question—an effort made on his initiative, and for every step of which he accepted in this House the full responsibility. Let me read to him what he said in this House in reference to the proposal which he then made:
Exactly—that is my position to-day.
Then no wonder I do not understand it. It may be my right hon. Friend's position, but it is not his Amendment. His Amendment contains the very vice which made us at that time determine to resist it to the uttermost. His Amendment is not that they are to be brought in with their free will and consent, but that they are to be allowed to go out with their free will and consent, and to be brought in in six years, whether they consent or not. Which is the view of my right hon. Friend? They cannot both be right. Either the statement he has just made, or his Amendment, is wrong. Let us realise that, apart from this question of consent and the extent of the area, which will come in in another Amendment, the whole of my right hon. Friend's objection is to the setting up of two Parliaments. I really do not understand it. I am perfectly satisfied that had he been at the head of the Government, had he set up a Committee to consider the best chance of settling this question, and if, after the most minute and careful examination, the Committee had put forward this proposal, no one would have been a more enthusiastic advocate of it than my right hon. Friend. What is his objection? He says, quite freely, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Dun-cairn (Sir E. Carson) would not have accepted that six years ago. Well, of course, he is six years older. The fact that those whom he represents are willing to accept this proposal does mean an immense advance. It is not a retrograde step; it is quite the reverse. We have not put in this proposal to please Ulster. As far as the Government and Great Britain are concerned, it would have been quite the same thing if the six counties were left as part of the United Kingdom. As far as any matter of principle is concerned, there is no difference between taking them as part of the United Kingdom and our proposal.
The acceptance of the proposal, as I have said, represents an immense step forward. And for this reason. We, by this proposal, suggest that there should be local government for the whole of Ireland. I would put it to my right hon. Friend that nobody knows better than he how much this country has suffered from the view of foreigners and representatives of our own Dominions, who, knowing nothing about the difficulty, say constantly, "Why cannot England let Ireland govern herself so far as local government is concerned?" If this proposal be adopted we can say to Ireland and to the whole world, "We have given you local government, as generous a measure of local government as we think is possible, and we have given it to you on this condition, that the moment Irishmen can agree amongst themselves they can have it completely." Where is the crime and the vice of Toryism in that? Our object in doing it, rightly or wrongly, was to make a united Ireland easier, instead of more difficult.
There is another reason. We know how difficult it is in Ireland; we know that you cannot settle it by any phrase or speech, on one of which my right hon. Friend poured contempt. You cannot settle it in that way. You could only hope to settle it by something, which I admit, Ireland will not accept to-day. But what is the best hope of getting it accepted ultimately? If the Bill be carried and if it be found that one part of Ireland can work it successfully, and can set an example to the rest of Ireland, then I say to the House and to the country that that is one of the best hopes of getting a final settlement carried out in Ireland. What is the need for all this hostility, when in reality we are carrying out almost literally the proposal made by my right hon. Friend himself in 1916, when the only difference is that, instead of saying that the excluded part is to remain part of the United Kingdom, we say that it is to have a Parliament of its own, and to unite with the rest of the country when ever both are agreed? I agree with my right hon. Friend about the difficulty of the situation, and feel bound to say that the best hope of making this settlement effective would have been —since we could not get Irish support, and there is no chance of it—by showing in an overwhelming way that it was a solution which the British Parliament believed to be just and fair. I think it is a great misfortune that my right hon.
Friend cannot accept the principle of it and, if necessary, try to improve it. There is a great deal said about party Government. I think it is a great misfortune that the section led by my right hon. Friend in this House should deem it necessary to show in some way or other that they differ from their old Liberal colleagues. I think it a great misfortune that this question cannot be looked at by my right hon. Friend and his colleagues, as he would have looked at it had he occupied the position of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and been compelled to try to deal with this problem. I shall say nothing more except this. The Council knows what is the position in Ireland.
It does.
I was not going to refer to this, but the interruption induces me to do so. In our attempt to restore decent conditions in Ireland, not my right hon. Friend himself, but some of his colleagues, are throwing every obstacle in the way of carrying out precisely the same method which was carried out by my right hon. Friend when he was Prime Minister. One of the hon. Members from the South-West of Ireland said to me, "You will get peace in Ireland if you would let the Irish understand that we do not treat them as if we were a superior race." We know how little there is of that feeling. If there be any superiority, it is the other way about. What this country really wants is to give to Ireland the largest measure of self-government which can be given compatibly with our pledges and with national safety. We believe that in this Bill we have done that, and we hope that the House of Commons will confirm the Verdict which was given on Second Reading, and allow the Bill a chance of doing the work for which it is intended.
I have very little to state to the Committee, having regard to the manner in which the review of the previous incidents in connection with the Home Rule Bill have been already stated, but I must most emphatically enter my protest against any suggestion that I was ever in favour of any expedient for eliminating Ulster from the Bill which was of a temporary character.
I never suggested that. [HON. MEMBERS: "Yes, you did!"] I never meant to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman agreed to that.
That is the proposal now. I ask the Committee, in view of the previous negotiations, could anything be more ridiculous at this time of day than to say to the Ulster people "Go on for six years more with the halter round your necks and develop your resources, expand your businesses, strike out new lines of production, but at the end of six years you do not know where you are I know businesses in Ulster which have had large areas laid out for the expansion of their works and have had their plans in their offices for some ten or twelve years and they have not dared to spend a shilling on their expansion because they did not know under what Government they were going to live. And to tell us "You must wait another six years before you know where you are" is about the most impracticable proposition that could be put forward. The right hon. Gentleman says, and says truly, so far as I am concerned in working with the Ulster Members, that what we always asked for was—and we did it with the full assent of the people who have trusted in me in Ulster—that we should remain under this Parliament. That is perfectly true. The right hon. Gentleman would not give me all we wanted, and if I am not given all we want now and try to wreck this Bill what will the right hon. Gentleman give me afterwards? And may I say that in the proposal that he agreed to at all events in 1916, not only did the right hon. Gentleman think that I had acted rightly and fairly and generously, and not only did he thank me for it, but, having first stated that the Ulster people could not be brought back into the Irish Parliament without their own consent, he used these words: March, 1916, he agreed was an impossible proposition. But while that was my attitude, and is my attitude to-day, if we do not get all we want, ought we not to make some advance to try to settle this question? And, as I said on the Second Reading of this Bill, although I take no responsibility for this measure, although I loathe and detest the break up of this Parliament of the United Kingdom, still, in the interests of an attempted peace, if you enact that we are to have a Parliament in Ulster, I pledge myself that we will do our best to work it. Is that a right or a wrong attitude? Surely it is perfectly apparent to anybody that we do not rest now where we were when the War broke out. First does anybody suppose that, with a view to getting all we asked for then, when we are offered this Parliament in Ulster, we ought to go over and take up the same position in reference to this Bill as we did on that Bill? The thing would be unjustifiable from any point of view. Our great resistance, and the justification of our resistance to that Bill—I am not going to take up time in arguing it now—and the extremities we went to was this, that not only did you against our will turn us out of this Parliament of the United Kingdom and take away our birthright as citizens of the United Kingdom, but you said, "We will put you under a Government, whether you like it or not, which you loathe and detest." That was the justification. This Bill at all events does not do that, and I have never yet heard any people claim to be justified in active operations to resist a Bill which granted themselves the power of governing themselves which this Bill does. Now we are not in the same position as we were in 1914, having regard to what has happened in the War, but I should have thought that one thing that had become perfectly clear was there was a great advance everywhere in favour of devolution. There has been a Speaker's Committee considering the Question for England, Scotland, and Wales.
5.0 P.M.
If there is to be that devolution and if there are to be set up Parliaments for considering local interests, why should I, in view of that, set myself up acting with those who are with me here as representing Ulster, why should we set ourselves up and say, even as regards devolution, which has nothing to do with separation, as the old Home Rule policy had, but is really a strengthening of unity, in my opinion, that we shall oppose it strenuously when the offer is made to us of a Parliament in Ulster? This is the first Amendment on this Bill. This Bill may be fraught with great consequences to Ireland for good, I hope, or for bad. That it will be difficult to carry out I do not for a moment disguise from myself. That it may be almost impossible to run these Parliaments in Ireland, at all events at first, I do not disguise from myself, but I have said, as far as we are concerned—much as we dislike the Bill— we will do our best to work it in Ulster. Do not try to discourage our people, do not be throwing out suggestions which may be taken up into the South and West, even as regards Ulster, that it is their duty and their policy to try and thwart it. Do not, I pray, those who are opposed to us—because, after all, old politics have greatly vanished, and I hardly know who is opposed to me or who I am opposed to—but I say, give us a fair chance and hold out no encouragement to those who would like to make even the Ulster Parliament a failure. For my own part, I certainly shall resist this Amendment, because of its temporary nature, above everything else, and because I believe it is really a retrograde step, having regard to what my right hon. Friend opposite himself was prepared to agree to in 1916.
I think many hon. Members will agree with me when I say that my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House appeared to be much more successful in attacking one another than in defending their own position. The right hon. Member for Paisley goes back to an old proposal which, I quite agree with the Leader of the House, was from the beginning an ill-constructed and indefensible position, and in existing circumstances really of no more service than an antiquated flint lock would be on a modern field of battle. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley's plan depends essentially, like all plans which leave Ulster out of a Home Rule system, on recognising the wishes of the people of that part of the country. If you are going to make that the basis of your system, what is the sense of a time limit? The people of Ulster will be just as respectable or just as little respectable six years hence as they are to-day. Nothing can be more foolish than to weave into a plain principle like regard to the wishes of the inhabitants so inconsistent a proposal as a time limit; and again what could be foolisher than county option? What are county boundaries to do with the matter? I blame the Government Bill in that respect to some extent. What you really want to do, if you go on the basis of the wishes of the inhabitants, is to draw that line, whatever it is, which will include in Ulster, in Northern Ireland, the greatest number of those who wish to be included in Northern Ireland, and to exclude from Southern Ireland the greatest number of those who wish to be excluded from Southern Ireland, but to have a county option—well, we all know what that means. It is just a dodge. What is the sense of offering people a concession and by a trick taking back a part of it? If you go on the basis of partition at all, partition straightforwardly; say, "We will cut out as many as we can of those who wish to be cut out, and we will leave in as many as we can of those who wish to be left in." That is the only rational basis.
Then I turn to the Government proposal and to the actual issue raised by this Amendment, because a time limit and a county option are, strictly speaking, consequential on this Amendment and not directly concerned with it. Let me first say why it appears to me that you must have some form of exclusion. I think you must have some form of exclusion the moment you proceed, as I understand this Bill does proceed, on the basis of giving some kind of recognition of Irish nationality. If Ireland be a geographical area, Ulster is obviously part of it; if Ireland be an area of local administration, it is arguable that a more convenient arrangement is to include Ulster than to exclude Ulster; but if you proceed on the basis of nationality, you must exclude Ulster. Nationals are people who are bound together by mutual and exclusive affection. It is certain that the people of Ulster are not bound to the people of the South and West of Ireland by a mutual and exclusive affection, and that is the only aspect of nationality that has any political importance. Therefore, if you are to pro- ceed on the national theory, you are bound to exclude Ulster. Nothing, to my mind, could be more unreasonable than those Home Rulers who are anxious to maintain the nationality of Ireland and who at the same time will not give partition. The two are as indisseverable as one side of a coin is from the other; one is the King's head and the other is the King's arms; it is heads and tails, and they cannot be severed. Does all that justify the erection of a Southern Parliament, as proposed in the Government Bill, which is the actual Amendment? The actual question before us is, should we have a Parliament for Southern Ireland? My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House made a most remarkable statement in the course of his speech, which deserves the widest possible attention, both in this House and outside. He said he regarded it as quite certain that the people of the South and West of Ireland would not accept this Bill—a very remarkable statement.
I said, "in advance," or I meant to say it.
I am coming to that. My right hon. Friend's theory is this—and outside a comic opera I do not believe so absurd a theory has ever been put forward—It is that you are going to set up a Northern Parliament, and that it is going to work very well indeed, and in process of its working, however sublime the wisdom that guides it, its good works will only be gradually manifest. Meantime, the South are to sit admiring with growing conviction this beautiful example of local administration; gradually it is to dawn upon them that the sublime wisdom of the Ulster men is after all what they want, that the Northern men have realised and solved this great problem of local autonomy, and that the best thing they can do is to imitate it. What is to happen to the unhappy population of the South and West during this novitiate, while they are gradually watching the wisdom of the North and gradually becoming converted to it? Was there ever such a proposal? My right hon. Friend does not deny—it is one of the peculiarities of his position that he emphasises—the extreme disorder and the terrible crimes that now deface the South and West of Ireland. He told the House the other day, with some exaggeration, that Ireland was in a worse condition now than it had been for 700 years.
No, I did not say that.
I think the right hon. Gentleman was reported to have said it, but we will not quarrel about the particular phrase. He will not deny that the effect of his speech was that Ireland is in a most deplorable and lamentable condition. In that deplorable and lamentable condition it is to remain, plus an unaccepted Parliament, whatever that may be—a derelict administration floating on the stormy sea and a source merely of additional danger and mischief to everybody concerned. [HON. MEMBERS: "What would you do?"]—I would appoint myself Chief Secretary in Ireland to begin with, and then I would formulate a policy. If the Government cannot govern Ireland, let them resign and give place to those who could, but what I am now engaged in doing is criticising this insane proposal. Was there ever such a proposal, to set up a Parliament which is to be unaccepted? What is going to happen? How is the administration going to be conducted?
The Noble Lord, I think, has misconceived the Amendment. The Amendment before the Committee is the exclusion of Ulster.
No, Sir.
The effect of striking out the word "Southern" is that there will be one Parliament for Ireland, from which counties may be excluded by plebiscite in Ulster for a period of six years. The Noble Lord is, if I may say so, trying to cover the whole scope of the Bill.
No, I am considering whether it is wise to set up a Southern Parliament, and I am obviously entitled to use any argument which may induce hon. Members to vote one way or the other in respect of the word "Southern." The question you will put is that the word "Southern" stand part, and I am arguing on that question. I say that the word "Southern" ought not to stand part, because I conceive that to set up a Southern Parliament when you are told by the Minister in charge of the Bill that it will not be acceptable to the people of the south is madness. All the difficulties of Irish administration would be increased. The Government would be responsible for this Southern Parliament which you propose to set up, and the whole administration of the law would be water-logged from beginning to end by the interference of this unacceptable Parliament. I do not know who is going to sit in it. Why should we legislate setting up a Southern Parliament in this Clause when the Minister in charge tells us beforehand that the proposal is an absurdity and an extravagance? Why is it that the Government are proposing it? It came out in my right hon. Friend's speech incidentally, and it was another very interesting part of his speech. He said there were people watching us all over the world and they asked: "Why cannot you let the Irish manage and settle their own local affairs?" That Is the vice of the Irish Administration of the present Government. They are not trying to govern Ireland; they are trying to satisfy bodies of opinion all over the world. The ingrained vice of the Prime Minister's mind is that he cannot distinguish between the art of winning an election, and the art of governing a country. He conceives that to propitiate this person and to conciliate that person, to satisfy this one and to shut the other's mouth, is the art of governing, but it is nothing of the kind, and this Bill is really put forward, not because it is a good Bill, because everyone can see it is an absurdity. These words are put forward, not because they are good, because they are obviously bad, but because the Government suppose that they will be able to create a good impression somewhere. I protest against it. I believe no Southern Parliament ought to be set up in this Clause. I notice my right hon. Friend is anxious to acquit his Government of Toryism. I can assure him that those who know anything of the sane conditions of Toryism are not likely to suppose that this Bill is the product of it. We are here face to face with an attempt to satisfy foreign opinion, American opinion, opinion in the Dominions; we are not faced with any real attempt to govern Ireland, and therefore, for my part, I shall vote for the Amendment, and against the consequential Amendment.
The Noble Lord who has just sat down made a very ingenious and interesting speech, if I may say so, but he did not seem to me to deal with the point before the Committee. The point is, are we to set up a single Parliament for the whole of Ireland and to let Ulster vote itself out by county option? The right hon Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) in his speech based his argument largely on history, and gave a careful account of the historical aspect of the exclusion of Ulster. I do not propose to follow him on that point. My only reason for speaking is this. I feel a good deal of sympathy with the Amendment, but I want to say in a very few words why I cannot vote for it. There are four points in the Amendment. The first is the area. Ought the area to be excluded be the county, the six counties, or the province? There is a very great deal to be said for county option. There is a very great deal to be said for the province. The six counties, in my opinion, are the worst solution, and, therefore, so far as the right hon. Gentleman asks for county option, I am greatly in sympathy with the Amendment. The second point about the Amendment is that it gives the areas to be excluded a chance of saying 'Yes' or "No," whether they want to go out. There, again, I am with him. The third point is, ought the part excluded to be given a Parliament of its own, or ought it to remain under the British Parliament? On that the right hon. Member for Paisley has the respect of my right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn. On that point alone he would rather have his scheme than the Government's scheme.
Whether it is better to leave the excluded part—because all are agreed that some part must be excluded—with a Parliament of its own, or leave it under this Parliament, ought, I think, to be viewed with one object, namely, which will ensure the unity of Ireland? I look at this Bill with that alone in mind. Will this Bill, or will the right hon. Gentleman's scheme, lead soonest, and be the shortest road, to one single Ireland? On the whole, I do not like two Parliaments, and I do not like two separate administrations. I do not like two courts of justice, two systems of law, two civil services; but I also dislike very much the idea of the excluded counties being cut off by a deeper barrier. I think, on the whole, with all its faults, the best chance of get- ting unity is to have two separate administrations in Ireland. If the excluded counties are allowed to form part of the British Parliament and send their Members here, I believe you have a stronger barrier, and you will find it much more difficult, and not less difficult, to induce them to come in under the single Parliament. We are told that no doubt by setting up two separate administrations in Ireland we are making permanent the partition in Ireland. My answer to that is that, so long as the facts are permanent, you must recognise them, and if Ulster or the six counties will not permanently come in, then partition must be permanent. You cannot, and you must not, force them in.
That brings me to the last point of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, and on that I part company from him entirely. He want the exclusion to be in for six years. I did not in his speech hear one single justification for that. If their exclusion is right now, why should it be wrong in six years' time, and how can you leave the whole question fluid for six years? Let the Committee look back to the last six years. Do they want a repetition of that in the next six years, and this enormous question again put in the party melting pot? It surely ought to be settled now, and it cannot be left over. Therefore, although a good deal of the Amendment appeals to me, still, on that vital point of the time limit, it is perfectly impossible for me to support the Amendment.
I do not apologise to the House for taking up a very few minutes of its time. This is one of the most important Amendments that could be moved during the whole course of the Bill, and, before giving my vote upon it, I should like to explain my own position. There was one part of the speech of the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) with which I entirely agree, namely, that part in which he said that he would do almost anything in the world if his action was likely to lead to settlement. It is from that point of view that I approach this Amendment. It has got many things in it to attract Members. At any rate, in theory it gives to two of the Irish parties what they are asking for. It gives the Nationalists an all-Ireland Parliament in Dublin, and it gives to the Ulstermen what they have asked for years, namely, the power to remain as they are under the United Kingdom Parliament. If it could be shown that by passing this Amendment we should be taking action that would prove acceptable both to the Nationalists and to the Ulstermen, I myself would say to the Government at once, "Redraft your Bill upon these lines, and let us, although we may see so many difficulties in the way, adopt this alternative course." Obviously, there would be many difficulties in the way. To-day I need not elaborate them. It is enough simply to point to the difficulties that would arise in finance by this county partition. If it would not give the Dublin Parliament Customs, the Parliament would not have the Dominion status that it demands. If you did give the Dublin Parliament Customs, you would be setting up a Chinese Wall against Belfast, which is the main distributing centre of the rest of Ireland. I only say that because I say, in spite of difficulties of that kind, if it could be shown that the representatives of the Nationalists and the representatives of Ulster preferred this method, I would certainly support it.
But will the Nationalists accept it? It seems to me a great pity that they are not in their place in the House of Commons to-day to give their answer. It very much increases the difficulties of this House in discussing Amendments to this Bill that the representatives, at any rate, of a substantial body of opinion in Ireland have seen fit, as a matter of tactics, to withdraw from discussion in the Committee Stage of this Bill. Personally, I regret it. One must, therefore, as they are not here, go back to the past history of this question, and see whether they would be likely to accept it if they were here. It is significant in this connection that when a similar proposal was made in 1917 by the Prime Minister to Mr. Redmond, Mr. Redmond refused it. It will be remembered that in the offer that was made to Mr. Redmond of an Irish Convention, he chose the Irish Convention rather than the proposal for county option. I think that, after the speech of the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) there really would be no basis of agreement him and the Nationalists upon this Amendment, and, as I say, without that agreement, it does not seem to me that there is much point in pressing it. If it is meant that the exclusion should be permanent, the partition that will be brought about by this Amendment seems to me to be just as definite as the partition contained in the provisions of the Bill. If, on the other hand, the exclusion is to be temporary, I cannot myself see the representatives of the Nationalist Party accepting it. Certainly, to judge from past history, there seems to be no basis of agreement from the Amendment. The Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the House have both alluded to such incidents as the Buckingham Palace Conference. With that in view, and with the further example of the Convention, it does seem to me that the sole condition of passing an Amendment of this kind—the fact that it will conciliate a great body of opinion in Ireland—does not exist.
In a matter of this kind it is much better to be concrete and definite, and it seems to me that when the Nationalists, the Ulstermen, and the Leader of the Opposition talk of contracting out by county option, they all mean something different. The Ulstermen mean permanent exclusion of the whole Province. The Nationalists, on the other hand, mean the temporary exclusion of certain counties by plebiscite; while the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition—if he will allow me to say so—seems to hover between his past history and the Amendment he has put upon the Paper to-day. Holding those views, and, at the same time, making my position quite clear, that if I thought there was a basis of greater agreement amongst Irishmen I should certainly support this Amendment, I do not feel justified in doing so, and I shall have to vote against it.
The Amendment which the right hon. Gentleman has proposed to-day is one of so serious a character that I feel I must inquire as to what really is the view of the right hon. Gentleman. No one could ever accuse the Leader of the Liberal party on these benches of inconsistency in the past. His principles on this question were always permanent and definite, but his proposal to-day is practically this, that he has once more swung back to the ultimate coercion of Ulster. He has practically proposed a Derby scheme which says: "You will be conscripted after a time if you do not come in before." That is a very serious proposal to come from the right hon. Gentleman when he has always told us that he is in favour of trying to reach a settlement of this question. It is a political somersault. I think the country at large will be dismayed to find the right hon. Gentleman deliberately coming to this House, and, after having led Ulster to believe that not under any circumstances would her people be coerced, practically proposing that, after a time, there shall be coercion.
I just want a word in regard to the speech of the Leader of the House. We have heard again and again, in connection with this Irish question, that we have got to decide the fate of these British islands in accordance with public opinion in the world outside. I most strongly support the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University in his repudiation of that argument. Surely, the correct argument is that this House ought to govern the United Kingdom and the British Empire from the point of view of the United Kingdom and of the British Empire, and not to consider what ill-informed people in other parts of the world may think about this Irish question! I want to suggest to the Committee that it is really not a sound argument to put forward that this Bill is going to placate opinion in the United States or in the Colonies. The Bill which is on the Statute Book had no such effect, yet it was far more in accordance with the opinion of the United States and of the Dominions than this present measure. Therefore let us not fool ourselves by supposing that this Bill, whatever else it is going to do, is going to placate Irish opinion overseas. This, I think, is inevitably the result of any true examination of this question.
Take the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman which really suggests that after six years Ulster should come under this Irish or Dublin Parliament. Does anyone in his heart of hearts really believe that an Irish Parliament established in Dublin is going to be able to restore law and order? Is anybody so optimistic or hopeful as that? There is no evidence to show that crime is going to cease. On the contrary, you are handing over the fate of Ireland to the instigators of this policy of avowed republicanism. There- fore, from every point of view, it seems to me that we are embarking on a most dangerous course, simply because we hope and believe that in giving to Ireland something which is repudiated by every section of Irishmen in Ireland you are going to solve this question. I rise once more to say that this Bill is conceived in Irish crime, and cannot hope to win the goodwill of Ireland. I believe it is a fatal mistake. If there could be one more fatal blunder than the introduction of this Bill it would be to pass the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley, which seems to me to be a clear breach of faith between himself and the people of Ulster.
My reason for speaking on this Amendment is because in the absence of the Nationalist Members for Ireland, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Scotland Division (Mr. T. P. O'Connor), I believe that I represent as many Nationalist Irishmen, perhaps more, than any other Member of the House. I think it is only right I should try to put forward what I believe to be their opinion, and what is certainly my view in regard to the Amendment now before us. We are faced with the fact that the Irish Nationalists refuse to have anything to do with this Bill. We are all well aware of the absolute importance of passing a Bill which will settle the Irish question, not only in the interests of Ireland, but of this country and the Empire. I am sure we re-echo the sentiments of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley, that we would consent to almost anything that would really solve this question. But what is the use of offering Ireland a Bill which threequarters of Ireland absolutely refuse as a solution of this matter? The Leader of the House has indicated his view that although (as he agreed) they refuse it at the present time, he hoped that they would accept it at some future time. The answer to that argument was given by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Ulster leader (Sir E. Carson), who inquired "What is going to be the condition of the country mean-while?"
We are faced, at any rate, with the fact that most of the Irish Nationalists refuse to accept this Bill. What, therefore, is going to be the condition of the greater part of Ireland meanwhile, and until they come round, as they are expected to come round, to the view that means ultimate acceptance? What is the solution of the matter? What is one to do? To my mind this Amendment does open out a possibility of so altering this Bill as to bring about a real solution of the Irish question. I believe that if we can so amend this Bill as to set up for the greater part of Ireland a Home Rule system, with what are roughly called Dominion powers, and at the same time give the Unionist districts of Ireland the right to vote themselves out of that Parliament, we shall have gone a long way towards the solution of this question. I have put my views before the Nationalist Irishmen in my constituency, and I believe I am right in saying that they agree roughly with what I am now saying. What is more; I have reason for thinking that Nationalist Irishmen in Ireland in very large numbers would accept the solution that I am putting before the House not, of course, as what they want, but as something that they would at any rate accept and make the best of, hoping to see the thing grow into a more perfect unity hereafter for Ireland. That solution is rendered possible by this Amendment. It would offer the greater part of Ireland a Home Rule Parliament with practically Dominion powers—I will not go into details now as to minor differences between the powers that Ireland might have and that Canada now possesses— but what are roughly called Dominion powers, and give the right to the purely Unionist districts of Ulster to vote themselves out.
It has been said that this Amendment does not really achieve that object. Objection is first of all taken to the six years. We are told that at the end of the six years the Unionist parts of Ireland will, if this Amendment be carried, have to come in. I do not know what was in the mind of my right hon. Friend who moved the Amendment. Certainly six years are mentioned, the whole spirit of what he said to-day, and the whole spirit of what he has said so often in this House, in regard to Ulster, implies that these Unionist districts, even at the end of six years, would not be coerced to come in, but would come in, if they so desired, voluntarily. If amendment were necessary to make the thing more clear, then, for my part, I should certainly say that some such Amendment ought to be made. I do not regard the six years as being a time limit, at the end of which Ulster is to be coerced, and made to come in. I regard it rather as a period for which the matter is to be settled by the first vote on this question, the principle being to try to carry out, so far as possible, the views of the people of Ulster, whether they be Unionist or Nationalist.
You come to the question again of area. The Noble Lord said that county option was only a foolish device to get four counties excluded instead of six. That is taking a very unfair view of the proposal to give the people in the predominantly Unionist parts of Ireland the best way to declare their own view. If anybody can suggest a better way than county option, I for one would be fully prepared to consider it. It has been suggested that there are certain districts adjoining Southern Ireland, in Fermanagh and Tyrone, which are strongly Nationalist, and that they might come to the Dublin Parliament, and that there are certain districts in Fermanagh and Tyrone, which are strongly Unionist, and that they would be included in that part of Ireland which would remain under the Imperial Parliament. If any suggestion of that sort were put forward I should not regard it as in any way contrary to the spirit of the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Paisley which we shall shortly vote upon. Therefore, for the reasons I have given I shall vote for the Amendment. It may mean some further Amendment, but it seems to me that it is the only hope of converting this Bill into such a Bill as the Nationalist part of Ireland will accept, and will try to work, and make a success of in the hope of winning over all Ireland. On the other hand, by the means suggested that justice would be done and consideration shown to the purely Unionist parts of Ireland. I speak entirely for myself this afternoon, without having conferred with anybody or having the slightest right to speak for any other Member of this House, but I am sure what I have said does commend itself to a very large number of loyal and, at the same time, patriotic Nationalist Irishmen in this country, and I believe that it commends itself to very large numbers of Nationalists in Ireland. For these reasons, not to slam the door against hope but to keep it open as long as we can, I, for one, shall vote for the Amendment.
There are only one or two of us who belong to Southern Ireland, and to us this Bill represents little that is good. We shall not probably take a very great part in the discussion. We shall sit and listen. We have heard this afternoon the speeches of the hon. and gallant Members for Durham and Chelsea. They, it appears to me have got the great advantage not to have lived in Ireland. They do not know much about Ireland. What do they care about the 400,000 Unionists, Protestants, and loyalists that would be affected by this Amendment? Is my county of Cork to be allowed to optionise itself out of this Bill? Of course it will. There is hardly a single county in the south and west which would not decide under that option to come out of this Bill, and govern itself in its own sweet way for as long as it could. If Cork had been given the option of coming out of the 1914 Bill Cork would have come out. Leaders of National opinion in the county of Cork were deadly opposed to Mr. Redmond and his friends, and what happened then would certainly happen now. If the mover of this Amendment means to give county option to Ulster, does he mean to extend it to the rest of Ireland, because that will only make confusion worse confounded?
Having been a member of the Cabinet Sub-committee which is responsible for drafting this Bill, it may not be inappropriate if I make an observation or two here. I have been in this matter a consistent follower of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith). I have supported him in his endeavours to solve the Irish problem ever since I have been a Member of this House, since 1906. What the right hon. Gentleman has advanced against this Bill this afternoon could equally well be advanced against his own proposal, because there is no section of Ireland willing to accept it. That has been made manifestly clear. Therefore, in that regard we stand upon an equal footing. I want to express my regret that, with the memory of the old controversies still alive in my mind, there is a disposition to revive those controversies and to inflame feeling, as we used to understand it. When the Cabinet Sub-committee was set up, consisting of representatives, not of one, but of each party in this House, I felt that at least there was a possibility of the Irish question being settled by consent, for certainly at that time I had as much title as anybody to speak in the name of Labour, and, in co-operation with the representatives of the Unionist party and the Liberal party, I believe we were animated with one desire, and that was to find a satisfactory solution of this; problem.
I recognise most fully that each other member of that Committee was just as desirous as I was to find a solution of this question, and I feel that the situation to-day marks a real advance in dealing with this vexed problem, for certainly I am prepared to state here that I was there associated with Members of this; House who have been the keenest opponents of any measure of Irish self-government, who acknowledged that the circumstances of the time had effected a change in their attitude of mind, and that whereas they were not, prepared to acknowledge what they had done in the past as having been wrong, still, they were prepared to face the new facts and to adopt new measures if it was at all possible to get agreement in order to solve this question. Therefore, I submit to this House that a real advance has been made in this direction. Party was subordinated, and there-was no desire to try and triumph over one another, because all were animated by the single purpose of devising a scheme which might be acceptable to the Irish people, and which could be defended from the point of view of democratic institutions.
We have to-day to decide one of the most vital principles in the Bill. When I went on to this Committee I was naturally biassed in favour of the 1914 Act, and it. is no secret that I sought to carry my colleagues on that Committee in that direction. Nevertheless, I am convinced of this: For several years past, whatever may have been the original intention, and undoubtedly was the intention of the Nationalist promoters of the Home Rule-demand, if they were able to get a Parliament for Ireland and Ulster objected, then Ulster was to be coerced and compelled to come under that Parliament. That, no doubt, was the original intention, but in course of time it became obvious that that was impracticable, in- deed, it became an abhorrent proposition. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley stated to this House and the country that Ulster could not be coerced and was not to be coerced, then a single Parliament for Ireland became an impracticable proposition.
First of all I approach the question from the point of view of county option. What is county option but partition, however you view it? It is all very well to say that is not intended in this Amendment, but the right hon. Gentleman knows full well that you could not bring the Ulster counties into an Irish Parliament automatically at the end of six years. The whole of those areas would be at least for keeping alive the old feeling, organisations would spring up, and political and religious feeling would be embittered worse than ever. I say we must not delude ourselves at all. County option is a form of partition in a much worse fashion than can possibly be enacted under this Bill. We have to face facts. The Noble Lord opposite ridiculed the idea that a Parliament operating in the North of Ireland would have any influence over the South of Ireland, and therefore it was quite impossible ever to conceive the people of Southern Ireland accepting this measure. Does that argument not equally apply to the principle of this Amendment? Do you think that if, as the right hon. Gentleman supposed, his method is more acceptable to the people of the South of Ireland that the re-fore the operation of his Home Rule scheme in that part would set such a glorious example to the excluded Ulster counties that in due course they would come into the scheme? It seems to me that that argument is equally applicable to the Amendment proposed by the right hon. Gentleman.
I felt particularly during the War that there were two main aspects of the Irish question. First of all the desirability and, in my view, the necessity of reconciling Irish opinion; and, secondly, despite what has been said, I attach a great deal of importance to opinion in our dominions and in the Colonies, and undoubtedly so long as the Irish question remains unsettled, so long will it be a cause of friction and misunderstanding between ourselves, our Dominions, and the United States of America. I believe that all reasonable opinion in the dominions in America, devoted as they are to the principles of self-government and democratic reform, will at least admit that an honest endeavour has been made to solve these questions, and if the Irish people are not willing to accept this solution, in my opinion they will have proved themselves wrong in the sight of the disinterested democratic opinion of the world.
When I went on that Committee I had hoped that this was one of the problems we would approach in the same fashion in which we had approached the problems which had arisen during the War. I thought at least that we should rise superior to party, but I have to say that the impression forced on my mind is that there is already a desire to grope about for some differences, and that, in my opinion, accounts very largely for the opposition which has now been formulated to this scheme. I submit that fundamentally there is little difference between the Government scheme, which is the scheme created by the Cabinet Committee, and the measure which is really backed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley. There is this exception, that the Government Bill recognises facts, and it is not an attempt to ignore them. I regret it has been found impossible for a united House to help to create a unity throughout the whole country in order to pass a measure which, in my opinion, will stand any democratic test, and a Bill, I believe, which is just as likely to be accepted by the people of Ireland as the measure which is now on the Statute Book.
6.0 P.M.
I cannot, of course, claim to have the inside knowledge which some hon. Members who have spoken possess, but I wish as an Irishman representing an English constituency to say that, so far as we are concerned, the principle contained in the Amendment is just as nauseous as any opposition that may have been aroused in previous Home Rule controversies. All the Home Rule Bills carried up to the present moment have at least recognised the unity of Ireland, and in spite of all the political and religious differences that may divide Irishmen on stated occasions, we are all natives of the same country, and we have the same love and desire to see that country prosperous. But those who have been responsible for previous Home Rule Bills and who object to the principle of partition, ought not now to come along and become the godfathers of partition in homæopathic doses. The principle of the Amendment we are now asked to vote for simply lays down that if the minority of a particular county, or a majority decide to come under the Ulster Parliament, then they have the right to become part and parcel of the administrative legislation of Great Britain. If that is good enough for Ulster, it must necessarily be good enough for the rest of Ireland. We cannot allow one Province in the country to have special legislation in regard to national considerations and the administration of its affairs any more than another Province. In the present state of feeling in Ireland, if anyone were to propose that the Southern and Western counties should have the same option as this Amendment proposes for those that are termed the Ulster counties, we should should have confusion worse confounded. Therefore, I hope that, so far as Irishmen are concerned, the principle contained in the Amendment will not be accepted. We are informed that the object of the Amendment is the protection of minorities. Are there not minorities in every county in Ireland? Is there one county in which we could not find a substantial minority, proportionately as great as any that might be found, taking any special Province? In most of the counties in the North there are substantial minorities on both sides. Because there happens to be an accidental majority in a particular county, that county will have the right to assume superiority over the minority in their own particular district. That is not democracy; it is simply ringing the changes on legislative propositions.
If this Bill had the ghost of a chance of being accepted by the people of Ireland as even an attempt to solve the Irish problem, no Irishman in Great Britain would oppose it. We know, however, that the Bill cannot receive the support of Irishmen, because it outrages the very principle of nationality. It tells us that we are not one race, but two. It keeps alive the old controversies, the old racial antagonisms, and practically separates one part of Ireland from the rest, telling us that, although our quarrel is now long dead, we have to have our geography and our political and legislative institutions based on antagonisms, religious and racial. That is the only secret in Ireland, and it pays certain people to keep that antagonism alive. It becomes part of the political policy of Great Britain to keep the idea alive in the world that Irishmen cannot agree, but that, because some of them believe in one kind of religious organisation and others believe in another kind, therefore there is an inseparable gulf between them that cannot be bridged over, and they must keep on fighting like Kilkenny cats to the end of the chapter. Now, in order to concentrate this antagonism, we have a Bill introduced which is supposed to be a solution of the problem—a Bill for the better Government of Ireland. I might suggest that it is an attempt to put sticking plaster on a wooden leg. It would have as much effect upon the Irish problem, and its real racial antagonisms and religious oppositions, as a jingle on a tombstone would have towards solving the problem of coinage. The members of the Labour party desire that the principle of democracy should be recognised on the basis of race and nationality. You are engaged in solving that problem for all the rest of Europe; what has Ireland done? Is not 75 per cent. of the people of Ireland a good enough majority? The minority in Ireland know that they can always call upon the guns and bayonets of Great Britain to protect them. They are getting it now. Every Irish village is a stronghold of those who believe in force.
Sinn Feiners.
Who made the Sinn Feiners?
The hon. Member seems to be diverging into a Second Heading speech. He should confine himself strictly to the Amendment before the Committee.
As the Amendment implies the possibility of partition on the county option basis, I thought I was right in referring to some of the consequences of the policy of partition. We on this side of the Channel who are closely allied with the Irish working class movement are absolutely opposed to the principle contained in this Amendment. We object to contracting out of a great piece of national legislation. If Ireland is fit to govern herself, we ought to be prepared to admit it. If you say that Ireland must be cut into two parts, every Irishman worthy of the name would protest most emphatically against that policy. Therefore, as a Labour representative closely allied with the Irish working class movement, particularly in the East End of London, I am opposed, on behalf of those I represent, to any attempt to cut Ireland into two, any effort to sanctify the minority against the majority. Believing in democracy, we believe in insisting on the rights of minorities to protection where necessary, but we do not believe in privilege for them as against the majority. We believe in equal rights for all, and the introduction of real democracy into the affairs of the country to which we belong. So far as the Labour Members of this House are concerned, I hope we shall not merely say we are going to remain neutral in connection with this Amendment, but that we shall vote against it, as a policy which destroys the very principle we stand for, namely, national unity as against national dissension.
The speech to which we have just listened fills me with despair, because the hon. Gentleman seems to have learned nothing and to have forgotten nothing. Although I most profoundly disagree with this Bill, yet it is, after all, a Bill which seeks to acknowledge in some way the facts, and also seeks to steer clear of the obvious injustice contained in the 1914 Act, which put the men of Ulster under the heel of a Nationalist Parliament sitting in Dublin. Surely everyone who has the remotest idea of what goes on in Ireland, and of the things that exist in Ireland, must know that the North-East corner of that country is absolutely different from the rest. This Amendment seeks to have a Parliament for the whole of Ireland, with county option for excluding certain counties. That would lead to endless confusion. The North-East corner of Ireland, in race and religion, is absolutely distinct from the other part. It is largely a commercial community, as distinguished from the rest of Ireland, which is mainly agricultural. They do not speak a different language, but they pronounce their language differently from the people of the rest of Ireland. They are Scottish by descent, not Celts. In this Amendment it is sought to refuse to acknowledge the facts, which are known to everyone, and to make confusion worse confounded, and therefore I shall strongly support the Government in this respect.
There is really not much more to be said, but I want to say one word in reference to what fell from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts). He stated that this Bill marked an advance on the 1914 Bill, and that he would admit that it was a step in advance towards the settlement of the Irish question. Whether we have county option or not, whether we have a Parliament for the whole of Ireland or not, do not let this Committee consider that this is one step in advance towards the solution of the Irish question. It is not. If it were a step in advance towards the solution of the Irish question, we should have Irish Members here discussing this Amendment. There is not a single Member outside Ulster here to-day; they have all withdrawn. How the British House of Commons can think that, by this or any other measure, they are going to settle the Irish question with Irish representatives absent or hostile, I really cannot imagine. If the Government are going to settle the Irish question, they will have to proceed on other lines.
The number of Members now in the House, and other indications —such, for example, as the absence of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, who certainly ought to have been here to-day, and probably is not here because of the facts of the situation in Ireland which demand his presence there—bear out the suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down, that a great deal of this discussion is being conducted in a world of dreams. The Leader of the House accused my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley of living in the past, and said that, although some six years had intervened since last he brought forward a similar proposal, he had learned nothing. I suppose the inference which the Leader of the House meant to suggest was that he has learned something with regard to Ireland. It would be interesting to know what the Leader of the House has learned with regard to Ireland that suggests his opposition to this Amendment. As everyone in the House realises, and as I hope to prove by two points which I shall put on the Amendment, the situation in Ireland is such that we might as well not waste any of the time of this House in discussing this Bill. If we are to discuss the Bill, surely the first argument in favour of the Amendment is that it is the only Amendment which suggests one Parliament for the whole of Ireland.
It does not suggest that.
Then I also must be living in the past. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] The unanimous way in which that confession has been received by the House shows how foolish the lot of us are—[An HON. MEMBER: "Speak for yourself!"]—excluding my hon. Friend— how foolish we are in attempting to legislate for people who do not want our legislation. In spite of the interjection of my hon. and gallant Friend, this proposal would be one Parliament for the whole of Ireland, giving to the counties in Ulster the right to contract out. The second argument in favour of the amendment is this. We are addressing our minds to an Amendment which we are presumably going to vote upon, and it would create the greatest measure of support of any proposal which is before the House or before the country. With the exception of the half-million Unionists scattered over the part of Ireland outside Ulster, the whole of the rest of Ireland would be opposed, and is opposed, to the proposal of the Government. The numerical majority in Ulster is very much less, and I am not sure whether my right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn, even, is in a position, as he indicated in his speech when he pledged himself to do his very best to see the Government proposal through—I am not sure that he is in a position to tell this Committee that he represents anything like the number of men and the measure of support that he did when he originally offered opposition to these proposals When the Covenant which the right hon. Gentleman was responsible for in 1912 was signed it was signed by fewer than half a million people in Ulster over the age of 17, and there was created in connection with it a body which is referred to as the Ulster County Council. Since this Bill has been introduced no less than 22 per cent., or, to give the numbers, 121, of that council led by the right hon. Gentleman, who pledged himself to do his best, had definitely said they were opposed—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—I have it in black and white. I am quite willing to be informed otherwise by any hon. Member who has more accurate information.
We are in Committee. How does that relate to this Amendment.
The Amendment is to create an alternative scheme, which can only be successful if it has certain support. The Government's scheme has been supported by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) who pledged those who support him to make it a success. I am pointing out that he does not now speak for the very people he pledges and that the measure of support he gives cannot secure success.
I do not think that is really relevant to the Amendment, which is a question of exclusion by county option.
Precisely, and the argument I was putting is that the Amendment secures the greatest measure of support which can be secured for any proposal. I was elaborating that by the arguments I was using when you intervened. It does not do very much good for Members of the Labour party to announce that they are not going to vote for the Amendment because it does not do this and does not do that. We are here to get a measure of agreement if the scheme is to be made practical. This Amendment suggests a practical method of bringing the two sections in Ireland into agreement, if indeed that is possible, but my own view is that we are treading on the edge of a volcano and that we are not going to do ourselves or Ireland the least bit of good by putting this measure on the Statute Book, although we may try quite fairly in Committee to arrive as near as we can, and we are really wasting our own and the nation's time.
My regret is that instead of one Southern Parliament there are not three and that the ancient provinces of Ireland, Munster, Leinster and Connaught should have been entirely ignored and that the precedents of the Dominion Governments should not have been followed in the present Bill. Look at Canada. There each province has its Lieutenant-Governor and its Assembly.
That is not relevant to this Amendment.
As we are here to see whether we can find some workable solution for the difficulties which have existed, to our regret, for so long, we must really try to investigate what are the probabilities of this alternative scheme's working. If we were to set up one single Parliament for Ireland now, that certainly would not work. With some experience of somewhat similar circumstances in Africa, I think that no scheme is likely to work in the sense of bringing into being a united Parliament for Ireland, which is the goal this Bill is aiming at, unless there is some intervening period, and that the first condition to be fulfilled before any scheme can work is that some considerable body of Irishmen shall be brought to accept responsibility and to govern large areas of Ireland on their own account. That is precisely to my mind the very great merit of the Government proposal, and that is where I think the Amendment entirely fails. In South Africa some years ago there was a somewhat similar problem. There were two races, divided by religion and by different outlooks upon political ideas. We saw the experiment made, and the Union of South Africa has been brought about, and on the whole has worked extraordinarily well. The essential difference between the conditions which preceded the establishment of that union and the conditions that prevail in Ireland to-day was that before negotiations took place which led to the establishment of the Union Parliament we had the provinces of South Africa, each of them governed by their own people, who exercised full responsibility of government. The result of the separation of these four provinces, crowded together into geographically narrow limits, made it necessary for the statesmen who governed those provinces to be constantly conferring with one an other. There were a large number of matters of common interest, such as the native question, the railway question. Customs, posts and telephones, diseases of man and animals, all of which had to be discussed and agreements had to be come to. The result was that the leading men of the various provinces came to spend a great deal of their time in meeting one another outside their own Parliaments, discussing those questions and arriving at agreement, and it is not in the least wonderful that they found that position of affairs became intolerable. They found these extra-Parliamentary conferences made such demands on their time and energies that almost any change would be to them welcome. That is really one of the chief reasons why in the end the representatives of the various provinces met together at a Convention and agreed that they would then form, if they could, a Union of South Africa, and when they asked for it it was accorded them. I cannot say I believe, but I hope if this Bill is adopted the sequence of events in Ireland may in the end resemble closely what occurred to everyone's great benefit in South Africa. If we wish to see a united, contented, and prosperous Ireland, that condition of affairs must be preceded by the leaders of that country being willing to take responsibility for the government of their country, and that is most likely to happen if it can proceed from a small beginning. The alternative presented by the Bill offers a real prospect of success, while that contained in the Amendment offers no hope of success at all. Therefore I shall certainly vote against the Amendment and support the Government.
I wish to say one or two words on what is a very important matter affecting very much the position of English Members like myself who hold the idea that we are a United Kingdom and that it is ruination that we should become a disunited Kingdom. I should not have risen had it not been for the speech of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. G. Roberts), which is an example of an idea which, I think, is prevalent in the mind of a great number of people. The right hon. Gentleman said he had always been in favour of one Parliament for Ireland, but I gathered that he is going to vote against the Amendment, which carries out that of which he has always been in favour. He gave as his reason that he had come to the conclusion that the two Parliaments set up in this Clause would afford a solution for the Irish problem, and would show America and the Colonies that we were making an honest attempt to settle the Irish Question. He went on to say he was sorry to see the old party feeling, which he thought had vanished, had arisen again, and it was the old party feeling which induced hon. Members to oppose this Amendment and to offer opposition to other parts of the Bill. It is nothing whatever to do with party feeling. We are all most anxious to settle the Irish Question, but we think our old opinion of the way in which it will be settled has been proved by events to be right, and we do not think that pandering to rebellion is at all likely to achieve the result which the right hon. Gentleman thinks will follow if the Bill becomes law. I am sure the right hon. Member is sincere, but I think he is mistaken and misguided. I hope that other hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will recognise that those of us who take the opposite view on this question are equally sincere. We, at any rate, have not changed our principles. We did not take up these principles because they were popular, but because they were right, and we maintain, and shall continue to maintain, that they are right, and shall not change them whatever the result may be. I should like to emphasise what was said by the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Ashley) when he asked whether it is conceivable that we can settle the Irish Question in the absence of the Irish Nationalist Members and with the presence of the Ulster Members, who are very faint-hearted supporters of the Bill. I will not put it stronger than that. I do not think they would rend their garments if the Bill did not become law.
We are not discussing the whole Bill. We are discussing only the alternative of the Amendment proposed and the words as they are in the Bill.
I have been wondering for the last few hours whether every hon. Member who has spoken was not out of Order.
The right hon. Baronet should not wonder; he should give us an example.
Had I commenced the Debate it would have been an example. I have been endeavouring to show that certain arguments were incorrect. I cannot agree with the right hon. Member for Norwich (Mr. G. Roberts) that we have any concern whatever with America. America has a perfect right to her own opinions and a perfect right to govern her own country, but she has no right to interfere with us, and so far as I am concerned I do not care the snap of my finger. I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Norwich brought forward that argument. The Colonies are in a rather different position, but, at any rate, they are self-governing Colonies, and I do not think they would be pleased if we were to interfere in their internal affairs.
They do not like being called "Colonies."
I apologise to the Colonies, if that be so, and if the Noble Lord desires that I should call them "Dominions." I hope that the few words I have spoken will bear some fruit amongst those of us, if there are any, who are hesitating whether they shall keep on their old garment or destroy it.
Question put, "That the word 'Southern' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 259; Noes, 55.
Division No. 105.] AYES. [6.37 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Blair, Major Reginald Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James Blane, T. A. Casey, T. W. Archdale, Edward Mervyn Borwick, Major G. O. Cautley, Henry S. Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Bowles, Colonel H F. Chilcot, Lieut.-Com. Harry W. Baird, John Lawrence Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill Baldwin, Stanley Brassey, Major H L. C. Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Breese, Major Charles E. Cobb, Sir Cyril Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Bridgeman, William Clive Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Briggs, Harold Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Barlow, Sir Montague Brittain, Sir Harry Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Barnston, Major Harry Brown, Captain D. C. Conway, Sir W. Martin Beauchamp, Sir Edward Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Courthope, Major George L. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Benn, Com. Ian H. (Greenwich) Burdon, Colonel Rowland Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton) Bennett, Thomas Jewell Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Bethell, Sir John Henry Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Betterton, Henry B. Butcher, Sir John George Davies, Sir Joseph (Chester, Crewe) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Campbell, J. D. C. Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Dawes, James Arthur Jodrell, Neville Paul Raeburn, sir William H. Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T. Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Rankin, Captain James S. Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Dixon, Captain Herbert Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly) Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple) Donald, Thompson Joynson-Hicks, Sir William Reid, D. D. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Remer, J. R. Edgar, Clifford B. King, Commander Henry Douglas Remnant, Colonel Sir James F. Edge, Captain William Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon) Knights, Capt. H. N. (C'berwell, N.) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Larmor, Sir Joseph Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Elveden, Viscount Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Rothschild, Lionel de Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Falcon, Captain Michael Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Faile, Major Sir Bertram G. Lindsay, William Arthur Seddon, J. A. Flides, Henry Lister, Sir R. Ashton Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Lloyd, George Butler Shortt, Rt. Hon E. (N'castle-on-T) FitzRoy, Captain Hon. E. A. Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Simm, M. T. Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Ford, Patrick Johnston Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Foreman, Henry Lonsdale, James Rolston Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston) Forrest, Walter Lorden, John William Steel, Major S. Strang Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Lyle, C. E. Leonard Strauss, Edward Anthony Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Sturrock, J. Leng Gardiner, James Lynn, R. J. Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray Sykes, Colonel Sir A. J. (Knutsford) Gilbert, James Daniel M'Guffin, Samuel Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Taylor, J. Glyn, Major Ralph M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Terrell, George, (Wilts, Chippenham) Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. M'Micking, Major Gilbert Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Thorpe, Captain John Henry Greer, Harry Maddocks, Henry Tickler, Thomas George Gregory, Holman Mallalieu, F. W. Townley, Maximilian G. Greig, Colonel James William Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Tryon, Major George Clement Gretton, Colonel John Marks, Sir George Croydon Vickers, Douglas Guest, Major O. (Leic, Loughboro') Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Walters, Sir John Tudor Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Matthews, David Waring, Major Walter Hambro, Captain Angus Valdemar Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B. Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H. Hanna, George Boyle Mitchell, William Lane Watson, Captain John Bertrand Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin Moles, Thomas Weston, Colonel John W. Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M. Wheler, Major Granville C. H. Harmsworth, Sir R. L. (Caithness) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. 8. Whitla, Sir William Harris, Sir Henry Percy Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Morrison, Hugh Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Mount, William Arthur Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank Murray, Lt.-Col. Hon. A. (Aberdeen) Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Hills, Major John Waller Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness) Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Neal, Arthur Wilson, Lieut.-Col. M. J. (Richmond) Holbrook Sir Arthur Richard Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley) Wilson-Fox, Henry Hood, Joseph Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward Winterton, Major Earl Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Hopkins, John W. W. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Woolcock, William James U. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Yate, Colonel Charles Edward Howard, Major S. G. Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. Yeo, Sir Alfred William Hudson, R. M. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster) Pearce, Sir William Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Hurd, Percy A. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Younger, Sir George Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Pilditch, Sir Philip Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward Jephcott, A. R. Pratt, John William Jesson, C. Purchase, H. G.
NOES. Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D. Entwistle, Major C. F. Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Galbraith, Samuel Mills, John Edmund Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central) Morgan, Major D. Watts Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Grundy, T. W. Myers, Thomas Brace, Rt. Hon. William Hallas, Eldred O'Grady, Captain James Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Hayward, Major Evan Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Hirst, G. H. Raffan, Peter Wilson Cape Thomas Hodge, Rt. Hon. John Royce, William Stapleton Cecil,' Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Irving, Dan Short, Alfred (Wednsbury) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H (Ox. Univ.) Johnstone, Joseph Sitch, Charles H. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Spoor, B c. Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Jones, J. J (West Ham, silvertown) Swan, J. E. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Kenyon, Barnet Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Kiley, James D. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Wignall, James Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Waterson, A. E. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Wedgwood, Colonel J. C Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Mr. Hogge and Mr. G. Thorne. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)
I beg to move in Sub-section (1) to leave out the word "Parliament" ["Southern Ireland a Parliament"], and to insert instead thereof the word "Council".
This Amendment proposes that the name of the Northern and Southern Parliaments should be changed from that of Parliament to Northern and Southern Councils, but it is far more that a question of a change of name. It is a change also in the relation of the Northern and Southern bodies to the Council and to the Parliament of Ireland, if and when established, and that is a change of a far-reaching character. The reasons why I have submitted this Amendment are shortly these. The Bill proposes to set up two Parliaments, one for Northern and one for Southern Ireland. The first observation I have to make on that is this, that Ireland is a small island, and it does not seem that there is room in Ireland for two Parliaments. I see very-great administrative inconvenience in Ireland in two Parliaments, but I see a good deal more than that. "Parliament" is a very old and august word which carries with it certain implications. My reason for changing the name is not merely one of words alone, but goes somewhat deep into the future of the Bill. The Parliaments to be set up by the Bill will have very great powers. Their powers will include a great many of those powers to be exercised by a central Parliament if that is established. In the first place the two bodies of Southern and Northern Ireland have separate judicatures; they have separate judges. They will have separate civil services of a complicated character. I have tried to look at all these questions from the point of view of how far they are likely to advance or retard the unity of Ireland. Where you have a separate Parliament that Parliament has got powers, not only to make laws, but also to change the laws which this country has made.
Does the Committee quite realise that if this Bill passes each of these Parliaments can have a code of laws which not only differ from this country, but differ from each other. You can have two codes of criminal law in Ireland and each code completely different from the other, and you can have two codes of commercial law each differing from the other and each different from our code, and you can have two codes of industrial law. So that you do set up a very deep division by giving Parliamentary government to the two parts of Ireland, and in fact you make Ireland two separate countries. You do it in a way which leads to permanence. All history teaches that where you have separate civil services you get what is perhaps a quite natural tendency on the part of each civil service to perpetuate its existence. Far more than that, no force in the world is so uniting as a common system of law, and no force so dissident as a different system of law. Let us look at the facts. The West and South of Ireland are, in my view, in a Very different frame of mind from Northern Ireland. It is not only possible but extremely likely that they will have totally different codes, and that they will, for instance, repeal our labour laws and our factory legislation and start a new industrial code. In the same way Northern Ireland may say she does not like our factory legislation, and she may very well institute factory and other legislation of her own except where that is expressly excluded. Thus you can have the two countries each governed with divergent minds and with different industrial and commercial codes. If anybody will tell me that that tends to unity I will receive the remark with a very great deal of surprise. I do most earnestly ask the Government to reconsider this point. It is not only a question of words. Of course, the word is important, for words are symbols and certain attachments are made to words, and all along an Irish Parliament has had certain implications attached to it, and it has become a flag and a symbol. But far more than that, I want to substitute the word "Council" because I do not want the division of Ireland to be made deeper than it is.
I shall also ask the Committee to change the name of the Council of Ireland to "Parliament of Ireland," protecting that change by a provision that it does not exercise all the powers of a United Parliament for Ireland until whenever what the Bill calls the date of Irish unity has arisen. I ask that change for the same reason I want to give a flag and a symbol of Irish unity, and that is best done by making the Council a Parliament. I want also to give it some reality. The present Council is a very shadowy body which has certain powers. I want to clothe it with flesh and blood, and so that the people who come in and work this Bill can see a Parliament there in front of them. At present they only see a shadowy Council or what might have been called a transient and embarrassed phantom. I want to turn the Council into a Parliament because I want to give those who come and work the Bill a certainty, and at present they do not know where they are. It has been said, and with some truth, that English parties have been in the habit of playing fast and loose with Irish hopes, and those who say that see nothing in the Bill except permanent partition unless you can give in the terms of the Act of Parliament a central Parliament that contradicts that. All this can be done without affecting the exclusion of the six counties of Ulster or the powers which Ulster wants. Under my scheme Ulster will not be compelled to come in until she wants to come in, and all that is left exactly as it is in the Bill. Until the two provincial Parliaments agree to unite there can be no united Parliament, and all the powers of self-government which Ulster wants are there. I do not know if I can appeal to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) who has shown such willingness to help this Bill to work, and who has shown such a real desire to meet objections halfway. I do hope he will consider this Amendment. It is not in any sense a wrecking Amendment, and it is not an Amendment that takes away or belittles the exclusion of Ulster. It is an Amendment that aims to make the Bill a step towards Irish unity, and it does that without sacrificing the interests of Ulster. I would appeal to my right hon. Friend who has gone a long way in Debate on this Bill and has shown a real desire to try and make the Bill work. I assure him if he can accept my Amendment I believe he will see that the body that will rule Northern Ireland can function just as well under my Amendment as under the Bill, and I know that he wants that body to function. I do commend the Amendment to the House and I hope the Government may see their way to accept it.
7.0 P.M.
After listening very carefully to the interesting speech of my hon. and gallant Friend I am in very considerable doubt as to what it is he really wants to do. At first when I read the Amendment and at the beginning of his speech I thought what he desired was to substitute the name "Council" for "Parliament" and to reserve the name of "Parliament" for the central body whenever that body might be set up. Apparently he wants to go further than that; that is to say he wants a reconstituted Bill, and he made a very earnest appeal to the right hon. Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) begging for his support. One remark of my hon. and gallant Friend really covers the whole of the case. He told us that there are people in Ireland who refuse to believe in the reality of our action as long as there is division and two Parliaments. All I can say to my hon. and gallant Friend and to those on whose behalf he speaks—the people who refuse to believe—is that we give them the opportunity here of coming together and forming a single Parliament if they so desire. If we cannot convince them in any other way than by giving them a single Parliament, then conviction is impossible, because you cannot grant a single Parliament or a Parliament with greater powers without at once breaking the pledge given by successive Prime Ministers and by the Prime Minister under whom I have the honour to serve, and adopted by all parties within recent years.
May I say a word in explanation. I do not wish Ulster forced into a Central Parliament against her will, and if my right hon. Friend will do me the honour of reading a subsequent Amendment of mine on the Paper I think he will see that.
I quite understand; I was referring to your remark.
I thought my right hon. Friend said I had broken the pledge.
No; I said that my hon. and gallant Friend, in the course of his remarks, appealed to us to make a change in the Bill on the ground that people in Ireland would not believe in our sincerity as long as, in the forefront of the Bill, there were two Parliaments. My answer to that is that there is only one way in which you can convince these people, and that is by having one Parliament. We cannot and do not propose to do that. As regards the change proposed by my hon. and gallant Friend, he suggests that we should alter the word "Parliament" into "Council." To that the Government object, and I should resist the Amendment even if it were only a change of name. What we have sought to do all through, in the composition of this Bill, is to follow as closely as we can the federal analogy which is to be found in our Dominions, and anybody who remembers the history of the Act of 1867, which sets out the Dominion federal system of government— the British North America Act of 1867— will see that we are following that as closely as possible. We here are setting up two separate Parliaments. We are giving to those Parliaments all the local powers than we can properly give. My hon. and gallant Friend referred to the power of these Parliaments to alter the law. If we are to have local Parliaments at all. if we are to have any form of self-government—I am not going to argue that question, it is quite out of order now and is a Second Reading question—it is obvious that we must give them the powers which are enjoyed by similar self-governing Parliaments in other parts of the world. Our proposals are not precisely similar to those found in the Dominion of Canada, because there power is reserved to the Governor-General, acting through his Ministers, to disallow a measure and impose a veto. This is not suggested here. The closest analogy here is with the Australian States, which are sovereign States and were at one time separate Governments. They have State Governments as well as the Federal Government.
I do not suppose there is a great deal of importance to be attached to it, but there are some Amendments on the Paper, suggesting that instead of Parliaments, these two bodies should be called Legislatures. Certainly I have no great preference between the two; they are both to be found in Australia, and in Canada there are the local Legislatures. But on the whole, we have come to the deliberate conclusion that the best name for these local Parliaments is "Parliament," and to that name we shall certainly ask the Committee to adhere. As I say, I do not want to argue this now, because it is a Second Reading matter, and has already been argued and decided on in the Second Reading Debate. It is quite obvious that if you have once made up your mind, as this House did by an undoubted decision on the Second Reading, that you are going to make this great experiment in the direction of a general pacification of Ireland—and this has nothing to do with the putting down of crime and of disorder—if you are going to make that effort, it is of no use to do it half-heartedly, or to minimise it, and to call a body a "Council" instead of a "Parliament," because you want to subordinate it to some future object. If these two bodies are going to function, and really to accept the duties which Parliament is proposing to throw on them if this Bill passes, then I submit that the phraseology of the Bill is the best, and that "Parliament" and "Central Council" should be retained. I also suggest that, on the lines which we have laid down, and which are consistent with all the pledges we have given and the speeches we have made, that at this stage, and as far as this House is concerned, all we can do is to set up two local bodies, one for the North and one for the South, giving them all the powers with which they can properly be entrusted, and leaving them, if they see fit hereafter, to amalgamate and to have one Parliament. If they want provincial Councils, they can have them. To do anything like this now would be either to minimise these new bodies and to lessen their dignity and importance, or to depart from the line both sides have laid down, and which is that you cannot set up a central body which would have powers over the North, which would at once bring you into conflict with the pledges which have been given by all.
I only rise in consequence of the appeal by the hon. and gallant Member for Durham. I think the real point in his Amendment is that he wants to call a "Council" a "Parliament." I quite understand why he wants to do that, because a "Council" has a general jurisdiction so far as it goes, and therefore he says that a "Parliament" would then be an emblem of unity. I would like to point out that unless you change the whole Bill from top to bottom that would really be setting up a sham. It would not be a real Parliament; it would be ridiculed, and in Ireland especially would it be ridiculed. Look for a moment at what it would be. The "Council" would have the full power of legislation and administration, but the "Parliament" could only deal with private Bills. Would not that be an absurdity? Unless you are prepared to transfer full legislation it would be really impossible to carry out the idea. Of course, if you do that, you are going back to the old idea of the one Parliament, whereas, as I understand it, the object of this Council is to be a liaison, as it were, between the two Parliaments with the ultimate possibility of their coming to an agreement and being merged into one. I think the Amendment is impracticable, although I have no desire to oppose my hon. and gallant Friend, who does not always see eye to eye with me on this question. I do not think the Amendment could be carried without altering the Bill.
I have been in some difficulty in regard to this Amendment. The speech of the First Lord of the Admiralty did not altogether convince me. One observation he made, however, with which I heartily agreed, and I cannot help feeling he might have put it even more strongly. He said that the establishment of this scheme had nothing to do with the pacification of Ireland. That proposition, I think, is true, and it will turn out to be still more true as the months go on. I do not propose to develop that line of argument. The right hon. Gentleman said, and it was interesting to me, that the scheme of this Bill was a federal scheme. I want to know more about that. A federal scheme, as I understand it, involves for its purpose subordinate Parliaments which deal with local affairs of the area—the province or the State, or whatever it may be—which they govern, and also a Central Imperial Parliament, which deals with Imperial affairs which affect the whole of the federated territory. That is an essential feature of a federated scheme. I am not quite sure which is to be your central area. Is it Ireland or is it the United Kingdom? This is very important. If it is Ireland there is no object in it, and as the right hon. Member for Duncairn says, it is a sham. Of course, everybody knows it as a sham.
I did not say so.
What he said was that if you called it a "Parliament" it would be a sham; so far as you called it a "Council" it would be a reality. I do not want to get into any controversy with my right hon. Friend, I hope I am merely stating my agreement. The Council, at any rate, is quite powerless. I ventured on the Second Reading Debate to call it a debating society. That is really all that it is, and I do not see how it will even develop into anything else in its present form. Therefore, a federal scheme cannot depend on the existence of the Council. Then does it depend on the existence of this Parliament? Is this to be the Imperial Parliament, and are the two Northern and Southern Parliaments to be the provincial ones?
Certainly.
Very well. Does not the right hon. Gentleman see if that is so, that this Parliament will not be a federal Parliament, it will be a local Parliament for England, Wales and Scotland? It will have the whole jurisdiction over everything connected with those three countries, not only locally but Imperially, and on those matters Members coming here from Ireland will be entitled to vote. My right hon. Friend is perfectly acquainted with this argument. He has often used it himself under other conditions, when' it was not his business to support a Bill, but to attack it. Everyone knows the argument, that we shall have the Irish Members here voting on the local affairs of England, Scotland and Wales, with no corresponding right for the English Members to vote on Irish matters. That is why I say it is not a Federal scheme. I am afraid it is true, as my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) has said, that the Amendment absolutely reverses the Bill. The Bill proceeds on the principle that you are to have local Parliaments and a debating society Council. The Mover of the Amendment proposes absolutely to reverse that process—to make the Council a reality and to convert the local parliaments into subordinate bodies. He supports it with what I think is a very powerful consideration—at any rate to those who regard the unity of Ireland as their ultimate goal. He says that if you set up two Parliaments in Ireland, with two civil services and judicatures, you are creating gigantic vested interests against any future union of the country. Everyone knows that that is so.
I remember that in my early days, when I practised in Committees upstairs, we constantly had Bills before us for uniting two neighbouring towns which had gradually grown into one, and the opposition always came from the officials of the two towns who had gradually established, not sordid vested interests, but every kind of vested interest. They believed that their system of administration was the only good one, and that to be absorbed in the neighbouring town would be destructive of the best in the life of the town. That will happen the moment you have created a Northern Parliament. I observed early in the day that the Leader of the House said he regarded this Northern Parliament as a step towards unity. I venture to think there are very few people outside this House who regard it in that way. I have done my best to ascertain what is the opinion of Irishmen, both in the North and in the South. They regard the Northern Parliament as an entrenchment against unity. I can quite understand that my hon. and gallant Friend should take the view that Irish unity is the only solution worth having. I do not attach so much importance to Irish unity as some do. I believe that whether you call it self-determination or anything else, you will never have a settlement of the Irish question until somehow or other you bring the Government of the country into agreement with public opinion. Government by the consent of the governed, I still believe, is the only solution of that and of all other questions of constitutional government in this country and elsewhere. I confess that I have grave doubts whether the Amendment will produce that result. I would like to proceed in a different way, but it would not be in order for me to discuss that now. If you really desire unity and think this is the best you can do with this Bill to make it easy to have unity, then such an Amendment is the only way. I believe that if you once get this Northern Parliament into being, if this Bill ever operates, you will have set back the possibility of Irish unity by a generation. As I do not myself believe that the Bill will come into operation, I cannot believe that the folly of imposing a system of this kind will ultimately be allowed to prevail against the will of all the people. I do not, therefore, take a great deal of interest in this Amendment.
I find myself in a position of very considerable doubt. If the Amendment stood alone, I should give it my hearty support. The Mover of the Amendment expressed doubt whether there was room in Ireland for two Parliaments. I have always been doubtful whether there was room in Ireland for one, but f I had to choose between these Councils and these Parliaments, I should unhesitatingly prefer the Councils proposed by my hon. and learned Friend. The Amendment was opposed by the First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Long) for reasons which were particularly interesting to me. He opposed it because it seemed to cut across the root principle of the Bill, which he described as federalism.
I must interrupt. This is the second time my statement has been misdescribed. I did not use the language of the Noble Lord. I did not describe it as a Federal scheme. I said that what we had done was to try to follow on federal lines. That is very different from describing this as a federal scheme.
I did not suggest that this Bill in itself gave a complete federal scheme. To suggest that would be to suggest an absurdity. What I understood my right hon. Friend to mean was that the Government had framed their Bill with a view to the ultimate adoption of the federal principle for the different parts of the United Kingdom. The acid test which I apply to this Amendment is precisely that laid down by the First Lord, that is to say, whether it conduces towards or whether it diverges from the ultimate adoption of the federal principle. Speaking for myself, I would never have looked at this Bill for one moment, and I would certainly not have voted for the Second Reading, if I had not been assured by the Members of the Government that the Bill was consistent with the ultimate adoption of the federal principle. That is why I welcome the assurance of my right hon. Friend in answering this Amendment. I am led to infer from the speech of my right hon. Friend that when I come to move my Amendment to Clause 4 it will have the assent of the Government. On those grounds I am pre- pared to vote for this Amendment. I prefer the word "Council" in the connection in which it is used to the word "Parliament", but I wish decidedly to reserve my right to vote against subsequent Amendments to be moved by the same hon. and gallant Member, if I think it necessary to do so.
I wish to support the Government view in this matter. I cannot accept the position either of the mover of the Amendment or of the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil), who said that, in their opinion, it is always a matter of common knowledge and universal consent that differences in laws led to divergence of interest, whereas unity of law led to closer and closer approximation and finally to complete unity. Anyone who comes from Scotland must at once see the fallacy of that argument. Let us suppose that because the Clyde and Glasgow and Birmingham live under different laws they are therefore proceeding further and further apart, and that Belfast and Dublin, which are under the same laws, are drawing closer and closer together. The thing is patently absurd. Surely the first thing to do is to recognise facts, and the fact here is that there is a difference between the two parts of Ireland, and that if there is a genuine difference it may lead to difference of legislation. Simply to say that the two shall not make different laws and to urge that that will keep them together is as absurd as the idea that you will make two dogs agree by chaining them together by their collars. They will simply tend to quarrel more and more. If the Parliaments wish to diverge and to pass different laws they must be allowed to do so, and by the system of trial and error they will find where their true interests lie. We cannot solve the question in 18 months or two years. It is a question of decades. These Parliaments must be allowed to make innumerable foolish and vicious mistakes, so that eventually they will see where their true interests lie. That is what we won the War for—so that we could have peace to develop these experiments later on. We could not develop them with a hostile country scrutinising us from across the North Sea. We can afford to give these Parliaments the very widest latitude later on. These are the live bodies which must be considered. If, subsequently, they by their own wish delegate power to the central body, that is their own business. The live body is the local Parliament. This Amendment and the subsequent Amendments are intended to weaken the local Parliament in favour of the ultimate reality. The ultimate reality does not yet exist and must be brought into being by the will of the subordinate legislatures and not by the act of this Parliament.
I desire to add emphasis to what has been said. This is the inception of a federal system for the whole of the United Kingdom. If traditional sentiment is regarded in that scheme, surely the time may come when Ireland will have a Parliament of its own. Sooner or later, also, we hope that Scotland will follow. Certainly, we should object to having it called a Council in Scotland. We are really disputing about words, because the Council will have as much legislative power as the Parliament. Why not call it what it is—a Parliament? The Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) confused the question, I think, when he spoke about this particular Council as the Council that is set up by the Bill. The Council set up in the Bill is the plant from which the single Parliament for Ireland shall spring. Its powers, which are defined in Clause 10, and are not very large, deal with railway matters and things of that kind. To call the particular bodies, to which we are now going to give legislative powers of a wide description, a Council is to lose all the effect of sentiment to which we must look to the future as being one of the binding forces between this country and the other parts of our islands, if we are to have a true union in the long run.
The hon. Member for Lanark (Captain Elliot) said that he thought that these two Parliaments or Councils would make many mistakes. He regarded that as a natural thing which was not to be deprecated, and stated that he would give them wide powers. That is one of the things to which I most strongly object. Consider the position of the Catholic minority in Ulster if these Parliaments are given power to initiate legislation and make mistakes, or consider the position of the southern Unionists or the ex-service men in the southern parts of Ireland, or the tenant farmers who bought their land, and who, even now under the Union, are being forced to sell it absolutely for nothing under threat of assassination or boycott. If these Parliaments are to make mistakes, it would be far better to stick to the Union.
We are indebted to the Mover of this Amendment, if for no other reason than that he has made the situation produced by this Bill exceedingly plain. On this side we are animated strongly by the desire of Irish union, and many Members on the other side share that desire. We may differ as to the methods by which it is to be produced, but it is clear that there is nothing in the Bill which makes in the slightest degree for Irish unity. So far from that, the two Parliaments set up by the Bill will be the greatest obstacle which the wit of man could devise in the way of obtaining that unity. One of the greatest possible points of interest in any Bill of this kind is how will it possibly fit into any federal solution of our system of government. The First Lord of the Admiralty said a significant thing when he said that the Government, in considering what should be done under this Bill, had considered the solutions that had been applied to the problem in various parts of the British Empire, and had considered the Australian and Canadian solution. The difference between them in this. In Canada you have Provinces which obtain powers from the Dominion. In Australia you have what he described as sovereign States, which delegate a certain amount of power to the Commonwealth. It is significant that the Government should have chosen the model of the Australian Commonwealth in making a choice, and set up what he describes as sovereign States in Ireland. It is obvious that if the two parts of Ireland have this conception of their position and feel themselves to be sovereign States, they cannot be expected at any time to abrogate that position and acquiesce in the establishment of a Central Parliament. The hon. Member for Lanark indicated for us in a humorous way that this Bill opens up a prospect for many years of confusion and error, and in the speech which he made, and in that of the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) we are getting the true prospect before us. We are embarking upon a course of conduct which, so far from leading us to the goal of union, at which we all profess to be aiming, will lead us very far apart by widely divergent paths. If we were able to reduce these Parliaments to the position of provincial legislatures, they could play a great part in the development of Irish affairs, and at the same time they would not in that form present an obstacle to the final establishment of a central legislature.
Amendment negatived.
I beg to move in Sub-section (1) after the word "Majesty" ["Southern Ireland consisting of His Majesty"] to insert the words "the Irish Senate."
The Committee has now passed the words which definitely decide that two Parliaments are to be set up in Ireland. So far those Parliaments are to consist only of one Chamber each. This Amendment provides that there shall be only a single Senate acting as a Second Chamber both for the Northern and Southern Parliaments. It is the first of a series of Amendments which stand on the Order Paper outlining the scope of this Senate. In addition to its work as a revising body it is proposed that the Senate shall be given the powers transferred by the Bill to the Irish Council as to railways and other matters which from time to time the Northern and Southern Parliaments may think fit to transfer to the central body. In the Bill it is proposed that the Irish Council shall in effect be merely a standing Joint Committee of the two Houses of Commons, for which reason it would, of course, be an impossible body as a revising Chamber, because it would merely reflect the views of those bodies over whose legislation it was to exercise a revising power. Therefore we have put down an Amendment to Clause 2, and also an Amendment as a new schedule providing that the Senate shall consist of 75 members. The Lord Chancellor would be Chairman. Forty members would be chosen in equal numbers by the Northern and Southern Houses of Commons from outside their own body and by a system of proportional representation, in addition to which there would be certain members representing special interests. Ten would be chosen by peers who pay taxes in Ireland, five by the Irish Privy Councillors, four by various religious bodies, and twelve would be nominated by the Lord Lieutenant to represent commerce and the scientific professions, and in addition it is proposed that the Lord Mayors of Dublin, Belfast and Cork shall sit in the Senate in virtue of their office.
Would any of them be liberated from Wormwood Scrubbs for that purpose?
The powers of the Second Chamber follow as nearly as possible the proposals that were laid down by the Irish Convention which are contained on page 41 of their Report, and which were acceded to not only by the Unionists but also by the Nationalists.
The reasons for this series of Amendments fall into two groups. There is first the necessity of constitutional checks and safeguards for minorities, and, secondly, they would be a great step in the direction of Irish unity and a great encouragement of that unity which the Lord Privy Seal this afternoon gave us to understand was the ultimate goal of the Government in proposing this measure. As a Second Chamber undoubtedly the Senate would be a great safeguard for unpopular minorities, against vindictive legislation, and also for the country as a whole against extreme measures. The House will realise without my laying stress upon it the need of such safeguard in view of the long history of persecution of unpopular views in Ireland. Never has the country been in so bad a state of terrorism as it is to-day, and never has there been a greater need of helping the legislative machinery to protect those minorities who may hold unpopular views. The Prime Minister, on the 22nd December last, in outlining these proposals, promised that such safeguards would be provided. He said certain clauses would be inserted for the protection of minorities. Unfortunately, there is no sign of these safeguards in the Bill. There are no such clauses at all, and these people are asking in the south of Ireland, "Why do the Government withhold the Second Chamber in Ireland, especially in view of the very grave situation to-day, which has been accepted as a safeguard in the vast majority of civilised constitutions in the world?"
Apart from the danger of persecution to loyalists, there is also a great likelihood of revolutionary legislation by a Southern Parliament. Already many men are being deprived of their land by terrorism, and it would be very popular among large sections of Irish opinion if this process could be completed by legislation. But it is not only a question affecting those who have been loyal to Great Britain. The Sinn Fein literature shows very strong Bolshevik tendencies at the present time behind this agitation in Ireland, and there must inevitably be a very powerful movement to destroy all that we connect with the individualist system in the country. The Ulster Unionist representatives have on certain occasions disputed the statement that the Southern Unionists do not even demand such safeguards. I think a record of the Irish Convention is a sufficient answer. On page 48 of the Report of that Convention, hon. Members will find a note that all twelve Southern Unionists supported both the safeguards of a Senate and Minority representation in the House of Commons, and the method of one Parliament in Ireland. Ulster Unionists, however, necessarily and quite rightly, owing to their preponderating numbers in Ireland, command a two-thirds majority in the whole Unionist party in the country, and it was natural from their point of view that after the Conference their delegates should repudiate any support for the action of the Southern Unionists, but that in no way affects the evidence as to Southern Unionist opinion which can be drawn from the views recorded as a note to the report of the Conference, not only by the four Southern delegates who represented the Unionist party organisation, but also by eight independent Southern Unionist delegates who represented other interests on that body The only articulate Southern Unionist opinion to-day undoubtedly strongly supports Amendments of the character which I am now asking the Committee to adopt, and apart from the general and special reasons for a Second Chamber in Ireland, an Irish Senate would be a very great step in the direction of Irish union.
Those responsible for the Government's scheme seem to have suffered from a confusion of thought; they seem to have lost sight of the need of a settlement accept able to the majority of the Irish people and to have fixed their attention only on the satisfaction of Ulster claims. The proposed object of the Bill—its only justification—is the appeasement of Ireland, and unless that is to be achieved it is better to leave the whole thing alone. To pass a measure which would only satisfy' Ulster—and it is only reluctantly acquiesced in by Ulster—and which is rejected by all other parties in Ireland would have a disastrous effect and would be looked upon as a final example of double dealing on the part of the British Parliament. The experiment of Home Rule is in any ease so dangerous, the present condition of the country is so appalling, that very few people who realise the position will feel any confidence as to the prospects of this Bill effecting any kind of permanent settlement. On one matter, however, anyone who knows the South of Ireland can feel no doubt whatever, that if this Bill goes through in its present form it will be universally felt in the south to be an admission of the hateful principle of partition and will therefore be unanimously rejected. Those you want to satisfy have always thought of Ireland as one nation, not two nations, and I honestly believe the majority of Home Rulers, even those who hold moderate views, would almost to a man rather go on as they are than see their country, as they think, permanently divided on sectarian religious lines which they detest. To set up a Senate in Ireland would be a great recognition of the principle of unity, and it would make it possible for reasonable and patriotic men in the South of Ireland to appeal to the electorate in support of compromise or to try and work the scheme. Ulster Unionists, I know, strongly dislike anything which would encourage co-operation under present conditions between the north and the south, but in this matter I believe that their opposition is largely based on sentimental grounds and is founded on no real danger to their own perfectly legitimate interests.
If this Bill is to be a settlement all parties must be prepared to' sacrifice something. British Unionists have sacrificed the Union which used to be the very foundation of their political faith; Southern Unionists will have to make far the greatest sacrifice of all, not as with all other sections, merely of their opinions, but of the right which they have long enjoyed to look to this House for the protection of their interests and the redress of their grievances. Ulster, fortunately, is free from any possibility of such material sacrifice, though her long record of patriotic effort for the Empire ought surely to make her ready to face a sacrifice of her sentiment to get a settlement, which all parties agree to be necessary, on the highest Imperial and international grounds. My Amendment will in no way threaten any real Ulster interests. The Senate could force no legislation upon Ulster, and its constitution would be such as to ensure a majority of her own political views. Above all, the Senate would in no way prejudice Ulster's complete power of vetoing any further step towards Irish unity, and whatever be the attitude of Ulster, there is no doubt that, providing the Government do intend to force Ulster under a Dublin Parliament, they are committed over and over again to the principle of a United Ireland and the justice of giving safeguards to minorities in the south. I do not, however, want to base myself in any way upon authority. Rather than take up the time of the Committee by quoting the former opinions of the Prime Minister or following the evolution of the First Lord of the Admiralty's opinion, I prefer to confine my case to the necessities of Ireland to-day. It is by the attitude which the Government will adopt to the schemes of well-disposed and moderate opinion in the south of Ireland that they will be judged. The case for this Amendment is founded alike on the agreement of all but Ulster Unionists at the Irish Convention and on the obvious needs of the situation in the country. You cannot reach a settlement by Parliamentary combinations alone, but you must get Ireland and the men who have got to work the settlement to help you. This they will not and cannot do unless you earn their confidence by carrying out the solemn pledges which have been made in the past and by considering the reasonable demands which they now put forward.
Very briefly I wish to support the Amendment, and I do so mainly on the ground that if ever there was a country where a Second Chamber system was needed, it is Ireland, and Ireland to-day. What chance, unless you have an Irish Senate or Senates, is there for any man, either in the south or west or in the six counties, of moderate views being elected to the local Parliament? The history of Ireland in. the last fifty years has driven the whole of Irish policy into the extreme opposite camps, and now we are faced in the south and west by a solid block of Sinn Fein and in the six counties by an overwhelming majority of Orange opinion. It seems to me, leaving the question of possible Irish unity out of account altogether, that if normal Government is to be restored to that country, if any progress or any hope is to come out of a Home Rule scheme of any kind, it is essential that in the new constitutional system of Ireland there should be a Chamber or Chambers where moderate men can make their views heard and their weight felt. In the south and west I do not believe at the present moment you could get even a man like Sir Horace Plunkett elected. [HON. MEMBERS: "Of course not!"] He is a man of long service to the south and west of Ireland, of long service to agriculture and things of that kind. I know he is not popular in Ulster—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, nor anywhere else!"]—and not very popular in the south, yet there is a man who has given a life-long service to agricultural development and organisation in Ireland, and who ought to have some place in the counsels of the State. The interruptions of the Ulster group are typical of the spirit in Ireland to-day. If a man is not a politician absolutely cut and dried, who never deviates one iota from the orthodox Nationalist or Ulster view, then he is to be wiped out by both, and neither Nationalist nor Ulsterman will have anything to do with him, and that is the appalling condition that Ireland has got into to-day, that any man who deviates by a hair's breadth from the orthodox view is drummed out of political life in Ireland. Lord Dun-raven, anybody who in any way represents a middle position in Ireland, does not stand a chance in the public life of Ireland to-day, and that is why it is so vital to introduce the Second Chamber system in any Home Rule scheme, if it is to be a success at all.
8.0 P.M.
There are two alternative Amendments. One is a proposal for a common Senate for the two Parliaments and the other a proposal for two Senates. If the Government's idea is unity in Ireland at the earliest possible moment, it is obvious that a common Senate is preferable to the other, and I hope that we shall have—if we fail in the first, which I hope we shall not—an opportunity of urging the Government to accept the second. On or the other is, to my mind, the most vital Amendment which we have to frame to this Bill. Take the Government statement this afternoon. The statement of the Leader of the House was most important. It was in direct contradiction to the right hon. and learned Member who spoke on behalf of Ulster on the Second Reading. He wants to postpone Irish unity for as long as possible; the Leader of the House said the object of the Government was to achieve Irish unity, and the sooner that vital distinction is made clear and we know exactly where we are and who has the majority in this House on that question the better. If unity is your object, I am perfectly certain that unity will not be achieved by the operation of the Council, as proposed in the Government scheme, or by the operation of the two Parliaments. The two Houses of Commons will both contain overwhelming majorities of what we call Green and Orange opinion, and what chance is there of their coming together, what chance have we, looking as practical men at the situation, of there being any solvent to bring them together? It seems to me that the only chance of the solvent lies in their working alongside a common body which influences, though it does not absolutely control, their working. The idea of the Senate is that it shall have revising powers, but no initiating powers. An Amendment has been put down by my and gallant Friend to make that clear; further, that something in the nature of the Parliament Act in this country will be applied to Ireland so that the veto is not absolute, and I think with those two provisions Ulster cannot say that a Senate, which would contain undoubtedly some Nationalists and some Southern Unionists, will be interfering unduly with their legislation.
Now we come to administration, and, after all, in Ireland in the next few years it is administration that is going to be so vital. The Senate will have nothing to do with administration. The two Parliaments will be responsible, not to the common Senate, but to the two more or less sovereign Parliaments, and therefore I do not think they need fear that. Then the other great thing to be said in favour of the common Senate is that those of us who have any interest in the South and West of Ireland know that, unless we can get some of the Belfast people to come along and help us in our hour of need, we are done for. Unless we get their help, what chance have we of making our views heard in Ireland? Because, after all, Belfast is the great trading centre controlling the whole finance; trade in the south and west depend upon it, and we do want to see the Belfast people, who have done so much for the Empire, do something for the loyalists in the south and west. By coming into the common Senate, they will be able to use their influence and raise their voice to assist us in times like these. I do not see how else we are going to be heard. The danger of this scheme is that the six counties will drift into more or less of a Sinn Fein attitude of their own, that is to say, be content with themselves alone. If "Ourselves alone" is going to be the future motto of Belfast under this scheme, it is a bad look-out for Ireland and a bad look-out for the United Kingdom. If they can come in and take the larger view which they have always taken in the past, I believe that we may be able to look forward to a brighter future in Ireland than we have seen in Ireland in the recent past, because they have the brains, the knowledge and the grit, and, if they will come into this Senate, I believe it will go a long way ao make many sections of Irish opinion in the south and west, which are not now vocal, and practically dare not speak, come in and welcome this scheme and help it along I am perfectly certain of that. There are a large number of people in the south and west, moderate men, who, if they felt that Ulster would come in and work for Ireland as well as herself, while her local autonomy was absolutely safeguarded, it would put a different complexion on their attitude from what it has been during the past five or six months.
Therefore, on every ground, it is to be hoped that the Government will select this first alternative of making the common Senate for the whole of Ireland with the necessary safeguards to secure abso-loyal autonomy to the Ulster Parliament, and the Southern Parliament. If they will not do that, then I do implore them not to leave us with a naked single chamber system in the North and South of Ireland which will simply perpetuate the existing sectarian and racial differences, and the existing political cleavage in Ireland, and provide no solvent, and which will not help towards the mitigation of those acute differences. Unless you can form some effective bridge such as this, then the Bill when it comes into operation will be abortive, and the objects which the Government say they have at heart will not be sceured.
With a great deal that has fallen from my two hon. Friends I am entirely in agreement. I agree with every word my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness) said with regard to the urgent necessity of some sort of protection for minorities, especially in the South of Ireland, and the need for seeing that the interests of those minorities find some expression in the government of the country, and if my hon. Friends had put down Amendments for carrying out that object through a bi-cameral system in the part of Ireland to which they refer, I certainly should have given it my most cordial support. But my hon. Friends have taken a different course, and they have proposed an Amendment which really, to a great extent, alters the fundamentals of the Bill, and they have both supported that Amendment, not only on the grounds I have mentioned, which I could follow and support, but they have avowedly put it on the ground that a Second Chamber, which would be common to both parts of Ireland, would be an expression of Irish unity, and, at all events, that it would lead, or might lead, in the direction of unity in a way which the Bill as it stands would not do. My hon. and gallant Friend who moved the Amendment spoke very strongly on that point. I think he used a very strong expression with regard to what he called the curse of partition in Ireland, and there is no doubt on that particular subject there is a good deal of diverse opinion between the Unionists of the South represented by my hon. Friends, and those in the North represented on this Bench. But my hon. and gallant Friend who moved the Amendment and now speaks so strongly about partition was not so very long ago himself a supporter of partition, because, as my right hon. Friend beside me pointed out on the Second Beading of this Bill, no one was a more thorough and cordial supporter of partition in the interests of Ulster in those days before the War than my hon. and gallant Friend who is now so strongly opposed to it. It is quite true that at that time partition did not take exactly the same form as it now takes, but it was equally partition.
There were no safeguards then.
I have no doubt my hon. and gallant Friend could satisfactorily to himself explain his point of view, but I am only pointing out that he was at any rate prepared to support the cutting out of parts of Ulster and leaving the South and West of Ireland with not so much support and encouragement as is proposed by this Bill. What, however, I want to point out is that we have had in this Amendment, and I have no doubt we shall have it in others, a great deal of debate upon this question of Irish unity. I myself will not express any opinion either in favour of Irish unity or against it, nor do I wish to express any opinion as to the possibility of its coming about in the near or the distant future. The idea I want to lay before the Committee is this: that hon. Members are not entitled to speak of Irish unity as if it was something axiomatic. It may be a very good thing under certain conditions. On the other hand, Irish unity may be a very bad and mischievous thing. It all depends upon the conditions. Many of my hon. Friends have considered it quite enough to get up and say: "Oh, there is a provision in the Bill which militates against the possibility of Irish unity, or there is something else which, if you will only do, will tend towards Irish unity." They never seem to me to think it worth their while either to consider in their own minds, or, at all events, to argue before the Committee whether or not the Irish unity of which they speak would or would not be an advantage. I can very well: imagine for myself conditions under which Irish unity would be most mischievous. The mere fact that it is one island is no reason whatever why you should have what is called Irish unity.
This House only last summer passed by a very large majority a motion in favour of devolution, and a Commission or Conference has been sitting, under the chairmanship of Mr. Speaker, and I understand they will very shortly report. That devolution, whatever else it may mean, means the destruction of the unity of Great Britain. If you set up separate institutions in Scotland, or Wales, or different parts of England, under any scheme of devolution, you just as much destroy British unity as you do Irish unity by setting up different Parliaments in Ulster and Munster. It seems to me very inconsistent that the Parliament which apparently is all in favour of a system of devolution for splitting up Great Britain, speaks as if it was axiomatic that you should not do the same thing in Ireland So far as this particular provision is concerned, I should like to say, in regard to unity, that my own belief is that if unity ever is to be brought about in Ireland it is not going to be brought about by any form of coercive measure or measures.
Hear, hear!
My hon. and gallant Friend cheers that, no doubt quite sincerely. But what he and others who are so anxious for unity have to bear in mind is that you can only have that unity by means of one of two alternative methods, either by coercion in a greater or less degree—or by consent. If you want to get unity by consent, then surely it is the most foolish thing in the world to do anything at the present time that will make people suspect you want to coerce them. It is like waving a flag or beating a drum in front of a shying horse. You are dealing with people who have susceptibilities, sentiments, and suspi- cions, and the greatest suspicion in the North of Ireland, at all events at the present time, is that you are going to insert some machinery in this Bill which, by some roundabout road, is going either to cajole them or to force them into a unity which they do not at present want, or at all events set up machinery which will in course of time make it very difficult for them to avoid that unity which they want to avoid. I maintain that among the many paradoxes of which Irish history and politics are full, there is this paradox confronting us now: If you want to provide for Irish unity make your separation as complete as you possibly can, and I am perfectly certain that anything in this Bill which leads the people of the North of Ireland, who at present do not want it, to think that you are going to compel them into this unity, will only perpetuate the hatred of anything of the sort. If, on the other hand, you set up institutions which are now quite distinct, it is quite possible in the course of time that the mere convenience of the practical working of these institutions will suggest to the people both in the North and South that it would be better, and, as a matter of fact, a practical convenience, that there should be some unity in the working of their institutions. That is quite possible.
I am perfectly certain it is only in that way you will ever get, except by coercion, a unified Ireland by consent. Whether that is a desirable thing or not I am not going to express an opinion upon. I am quite certain that it would destroy that hope and that it would tend to friction from the very first. To put an institution of this sort which, to use the language of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Durham on a former Amendment, is at all events a flag and a symbol —and as such is most mischievous and objectionable, because we do not want to wave flags and to put up symbols for people as signs of something they do not want—is bad. If you do not want to do that, do not put into this Bill this provision which will do exactly the opposite to what you want, and will provide a new source of friction in the South and West for those Unionists with whom I sympathise just as warmly as does my right hon. and gallant Friend, and whom I am perfectly willing to help to protect by any provision in this Bill which is not of the objectionable character as that now before us.
In the speeches of the Mover and Seconder of this Amendment I recognise the very welcome note of an aspiration for Irish prosperity and unity which were obviously lacking in prior speeches from the other side of the House. In the speech made by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, there was brought into swift relief the position of the Ulster Unionists, to whom nothing is satisfactory except complete and absolute separation now and for all time from the rest of Ireland. Here is a bridge, fragile and delicate it is true, but giving some hope in time of the unity of Ireland. The speech to which we have just listened is one which is simply redolent of the passions of the past. My right hon. Friend was accused from the other side of the House to-day of living in the past. Such a speech as that to which we have just listened, delivered with great earnestness and sincerity, makes one quite hopeless. The proposal is one which does not come from this side of the House, but from a body of men who, in recent years, have with great public spirit and at the risk of grave misunderstanding devoted themselves to endeavouring to find some solution of the Irish problem. This is the first attempt they make in this Bill. It is a very gentle effort, but it has within it the seeds of great possibilities. It sets up a common centre for both Houses of Parliament, which are so far established in the first Clause of the Bill, and to that Senate it proposes to send members elected by the method disclosed in the further Amendments on the Paper. It is totally different from the gas and water council which stands in the Bill. It has some shape and definiteness in it, and it gives protection to those who fear persecution, both in the South and the North of Ireland. It is an attempt to give even-handed justice all round, and protection to both North and South in regard to religious differences. In it there is given an opportunity of producing a united Ireland. It has been said that the only way to hope for union with Ulster is to commence with the greatest possible measure of separation now. One is accustomed to hear the Irish way of putting things, and this is a good example. I believe the proposal that has been put forward by the two hon. Members who have spoken has within it some suggestion of statesmanship. At any rate, it is founded upon a fair-minded outlook, and for these reasons we shall support this Amendment if it is carried to a Division.
I think it is well to bear in mind what it is we are really considering. The hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) mixed up in his speech two entirely different questions. One of them was this particular proposal and the other the bi-cameral system. This is an Amendment to establish, when you have established two separate Parliaments, one Upper Chamber for the two Parliaments. It is a somewhat novel and peculiar proposal, and it might be so constituted that there might be not a single representative from the North of Ireland or the South in that Chamber. What would be the position? Look at the proposal that is going to bring about union, which is the great object of my hon. Friend. Look at the way we have been getting union. Suppose the Ulster party passed a Bill, and they had to send it up to the House composed mainly of Members opposed to them, and they reject the Bill, or alter it in such a way that the Parliament elected on a most popular franchise could not possibly accept it. Does that tend to union? The truth of the matter is that the setting up of an artificial body of this kind, in the hope of bringing about unity, is all nonsense. Unity cannot be brought about by anybody except by the people. You will have a democratic Parliament in the North and one in the South, and let me read how unity is to be brought about. In a subsequent Amendment the offices entitling the holders to be senators are the Lord Mayoralty of Dublin, the Lord Mayoralty of Belfast, the Lord Mayoralty of Cork, the archbishops and bishops of the Roman Catholic Church holding sees in Ireland (2), the archbishops and bishops of the Church of Ireland holding sees in Ireland (1), the Presbyterian Church in Ireland (1), peers who are taxpayers and have residences in Ireland (10), members of His Majesty's Privy Council in Ireland of not less than two years' standing (5), representatives of commerce and the scientific and learned professions, to be nominated by the Lord Lieutenant (12). That is the body to overrule a body elected by popular franchise.
That schedule only deals with nominated Members by those bodies who are elected by the two Houses of Commons. The two Parliaments elect by proportional representation 20 Members, so that Ulster would most certainly get 20 direct representatives.
Then they are not elected by the people, but by the House of Commons. The truth of the matter is, ' if you are to give the power of rejecting the Bill to such a body as that, it would be far better to get rid of your two Parliaments and have only one, because each time that the Northern or the Southern Parliament found they were thwarted by this body, it would tend, not to unity, but to dissatisfaction, and to absolute revolt against a body of this kind, who would be there, not representing in any sense the particular districts which were to be affected by the legislation. My hon. and gallant Friend said that this was agreed to by the Southern Unionists at the Convention. I know it was, but the Southern Unionists at the Convention were not dealing with two Parliaments, but with a system of one Parliament for Ireland, and they were setting up or trying to constitute a Second Chamber. The position of the Convention has nothing on earth to do with the framework of this Bill, which sets up two co-equal Parliaments in their separate districts. The proposal here is not to set up a Second Chamber for each of them, but for the two combined. Is this a protection to the Southern or the Northern Unionists? Where does that protection come in? You cannot protect by such a method as this. It was stated by the Mover of the Amendment that this Senate, as it is called, will have no power over administration. Bad administration, unfair administration, prejudiced administration, is, however, the real weapon that these Parliaments will have in their hands if they are out for bad government. It is no use setting up these artificial Senates if the people themselves, in their own Parliament, with an Executive responsible to them, are out for tyranny or unfair dealing. That is why, not having confidence in fair administration, I have been all my life an opponent of any such proposal.
My right hon. Friend opposite (Sir D. MacLean) says that Ulster never would agree to anything. That is utterly untrue. When we were asked by his own Leader, in the middle of the War, to agree to the separation of six counties, we agreed, after a great deal of difficulty. If he had spent as much time amongst the labouring classes and the voters in Ulster as I did at that time, he would know a little of the difficulties I had. However, we agreed. Here now is a Coalition Government offering the one chance when Liberals and Conservatives, Unionists and Separatists, as we used to call them, can set themselves together and try and bring about some sort of solution of this question, and they present us with this Bill, which we have never asked for, which we loathe and hate. They tell us that it is the best that is likely to accrue, and we accept it. The moment we accept it, my right hon. Friend, or rather his Leader, he gets up and moves to put it back where it was on the 24th March, 1914, and then he says we are not prepared to accept anything. It is utterly untrue. I am not now talking of the south. I suppose the Government have considered what will happen there, and are making provision accordingly; but if you are going to have a working Parliament in Ulster, you will have to trust that Parliament, and you must not hedge it round with archbishops or bishops or anyone else. It is the great democracy of Ireland,. and, indeed, the only real free democracy in Ireland; and to think that you are going to bind it, or to encourage it to work better, because you have behind it such a body as this to appeal to, is really an outrage on the commonsense of the people who will have to work these matters. It will not bring about unity, but disunity. Following up what was said by my hon. Friend beside me (Mr. R. McNeill), what do you mean by unity? I often think, when hon. Members opposite are talking about unity, and abusing us in the North of Ireland, that what they really wish is that the North of Ireland should join Sinn Fein against Great Britain. That would be the unity that they have always been pressing upon me—" Why do you not go down and join with the South and West against Great Britain and everything she cares for? "You will have no unity in Ireland until the people in the South and West give up their hatred and hostility to Great Britain. We feel that our interests are identical with those of Great Britain, and we shall have no unity as long as this insane hatred is preached from the housetops in the South and West of Ireland. Stop that to-morrow, and come and shake hands over a common friendship with Great Britain, and you will have unity in a very short time.
As a new Member, who has not had previous experience of Irish Debates, I speak with diffidence on this question, but, at any rate, a new Member has the advantage that he has no past to explain, and no previous utterances with which to reconcile his present opinion. I rise diffidently, but at the same time under a sense of duty, to support this Amendment, because I believe it to be an improvement on the Bill as it stands. A great deal has been said about Irish unity, but I confess I think a great deal more about British unity, and I support this proposal partly because I believe it to be more consistent with the British tradition than a policy which is essentially a break with the past. I do not take the view that this Bill, if put into proper form, is really a break with the past. I think it is probably the inevitable and natural development of the forces of the last ten or fifteen years. If we do everything to emphasise the essential continuity of this measure with the natural development of the British constitution, we shall produce a more workable and statesmanlike measure. The British tradition undoubtedly does contemplate a bi-cameral system. The right hon. Gentleman below me (Sir E. Carson) suggested that the arguments which have been used had nothing to do with a bi-cameral system. I confess I do not understand that. The mere fact that there is to be one Second Chamber for the two bodies surely is not inconsistent with the essence of a bicameral system. The right hon. Gentleman used a great many arguments which indicated that he objects to a Second Chamber. I rather fancy I have heard the same sort of arguments used by Radical speakers in the old days, when the House of Lords was the object of their attacks. He rather indicated that the real democratic body would be a body elected by the people of Ulster, or by the South of Ireland, if they chose to put the Bill into operation.
The hon. Member for Canterbury said that, if the proposal contained in this Amendment was a Second Chamber for each of the Parliaments, he would favour it.
I was not referring to the hon. Member for Canterbury, but to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn. He says that this is an artificial system to interfere with the conclusions to which the really democratic assembly may come, and he says that the democratic assembly of Ulster does not wish to be hedged about with archbishops and other persons who are not elected by the free and independent electors of Ulster. If Ulster is afraid of three archbishops, it is not quite the force in the political world that I always understood it to be. The principle is what we are debating at the moment, and I am not going to pursue the right hon. Gentleman into a discussion of the constitution of the Senate. I am not pledging myself to what my hon. and gallant Friend has suggested in the schedule as to the constitution of the Senate, but I believe that a Second Chamber is more consistent with the British position than a single-chamber form of government. If you start with that hypothesis, I think you are some considerable way towards seeing that this is an improvement upon the Bill as it stands at the present time. I think that one reason of considerable force, which the hon. and gallant Member has already mentioned, is that we ought to consider what we are doing for minorities in this Bill. The Second Chamber is some safeguard for the minority, because it gives opportunities, which will be absent if there is no Second Chamber, for consideration and conference—to interfere, as the right hon. Gentleman calls it, with the democratic assembly. There is a further reason for which I would suggest that a Second Chamber is desirable, namely, that it would facilitate the work of these comparatively inexperienced assemblies. As we know in this House, the Second Chamber does give time for thought and for reconsideration of matters which have not been given full consideration in this House. No doubt, in the Irish Parliaments, in dealing with a new system, the members of the Houses will be inexperienced in legislation, and this proposal would give opportunities for reconsideration and reflection which would be absent if everything had to go hot from each Chamber to His Majesty for approval in the constitutional way. If we adopt this method the Government, I have no doubt, with the assistance of those who are responsible for the proposal, will be able to make proposals which will be an improvement upon this as it stands at present. If we can get the principle I believe we shall be adopting, not an artificial system, but an essentially British system, and we shall do something to reassure that naturally anxious minority, possibly in both parts of Ireland, as to the provisions which are being made by the Government for their proper protection when the Bill is put into force.
Very rarely have I risen with greater pleasure than I do to support this Amendment, because it appears to me that there is a certain possibility in it of redeeming the Bill from the position of uselessness, and almost of viciousness, in which it finds itself. It has been moved with the object of attempting to retrieve some kind of unity in Ireland. As it stands the Bill creates a fresh position in Ireland, which if it is carried out is going to be almost irreparable. That is no good to Ireland, I think it is no good to this country, because after all we want peace in Ireland, and it is going to produce no kind of a salve to wounded feeling in America, Australia, and Canada. I feel that if the Bill is passed as it stands now, posterity will be more than ever concentrated upon our Irish policy. It will be said that we have inherited the Turkish policy of divide et impera. It will be held up as one more instance of the insincerity of this House and of our policy towards Ireland. Again, I support it very gladly because it seems to me to afford another chance of protecting the position of the Unionists in Southern Ireland. I honestly think the position in which they are left is one that in the future is not going to redound very creditably to the honour of the House of Commons. They are a small minority, they are a quiet minority, they are a very loyal minority, and they are left entirely unprotected. My hon Friend (Mr. R. McNeill) and my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) both attacked my hon. and gallant Friend (Major Hills) on the ground that he was proposing a purely artificial body, which would not represent in any sense the democracy of Ireland. My hon. and gallant Friend's motive in introducing the Amendment was to bring about unity and he would probably welcome any improve- ment which could be made in his suggested Amendment. The Bill is entitled, "A Bill for the better Government of Ireland." That, the most devoted admirer of the Government would admit, is a very unambitious title. He who looks upon every action of the Government with dog-like devotion would still admit that there was room for improvement both in the method, the machinery, and the spirit of the Government of Ireland at present.
The hon. Member is not entitled to enter into a Second reading discussion. This is an Amendment to set up a Senate.
This Clause deals with a situation which has been purely created by the Government. It is part of a Bill that no one wants, neither the Irish nor the English nor anyone one has ever heard of, either in this country or anywhere else in the world, except the Government, and, according to the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, even the Government admits that it has very serious drawbacks. If the Amendment; is accepted it would involve a new Bill. It may be said, "If you object entirely to the Clause and to the Bill you have very little title to speak." It seems to me that whether we discuss either this Bill in its entirety on Second Beading or whether we are discussing one Clause of it—
We are not even discussing a Clause of the Bill now. The Clause is put later on.
I am sorry that I am using such loose language. I am endeavouring, with some difficulty, not to poach upon the ground of my hon. and gallant Friend who has just spoken. I am attempting to use only my own arguments, which are very inadequate, and which I hope will improve as the Debate proceeds. When one is attempting to improve a Clause of this description one cannot forget that the whole Bill from the Irish point of view is entirely undesirable, and, therefore, it is almost futile for an Englishman or Welshman or Scotsman to try to amend an Irish Bill which no Irishman wants. A white elephant remains a white elephant, even if you gild its tusks, and even if you alter the shape of its howdah. It is very little use decorating the cabin of a ship when you know that the hull of the ship is unseaworthy.
This Amendment deserves serious consideration from this point of view. My hon. and gallant Friend has spoken mainly upon one thesis, and that is that it is hateful from the Irish point of view to divide Ireland. This Clause seems to me to be wrong from that point of view, and from that point of view the Amendment is right. In Ireland there is a geographical unity which you have to recognise, and there is a duality which you have to recognise; a duality of creed and of race. The Amendment is attempting to say that the Government Bill recognises the duality of Ireland before it has recognised the unity of Ireland. Recognise, first of all, the unity of Ireland and then subsequently recognise the duality of Ireland in that you have two different sets of people with different hopes, different ambitions and different ideals. As it is, this Bill and this Clause really constitute the epitaph of a united Ireland, and it is an epitaph without any R.I.P. written on the tombstone. My hon. and gallant Friend has been attempting to put a plank across the ditch that has been created in this Bill. If the Bill with this Clause in it remains as it is you have made this breach practically irrevocable. You will have fossilised a quarrel. That quarrel is not essential. Time may get over it; but if you make this artificial gulf between the two different sections, then you will have fossilised it and kept it permanent. This Bill leaves the greater part of Ireland on one side with no satisfaction of its aspirations. It leaves the six counties of Ulster on the other side who accept it with a sullen acquiescence and with no thanks. In this country it leaves the whole population absolutely apathetic. In Canada, Australia and the Dominions generally it heals no wounds.
I promised that I would make some suggestions to reinforce the arguments of my hon. and gallant Friend. I will endeavour to do so. If things are left as they are at the present time, if the Amendment is not adopted, what is going to be the position? The position is roughly going to be this. You will have the status quo that we have to-day, only you will have that status quo under an alias. At the present time you have a number of Irish Members of Parliament who have been quite constitutionally elected, and they are in Wormwood Scrubs Prison. If the Amendment is not accepted this is going to be your position in future: a fortiori you will have Members of Parliament constitutionally elected in Ireland and you are going to allow them to declare a Sinn Fein Republic in the South, or you are going to make a mockery of the Bill by bringing them to Wormwood Scrubs. Unless this Amendment is accepted the result will be that in these circumstances we are voluntarily going to resign all our authority over the South of Ireland. We are voluntarily going to legitimise Sinn Fein. We are going in future to sanction rebellion in the South of Ireland, because we are going to put it out of our power to do anything else. There are only two small chances of avoiding all these disastrous consequences. If this Amendment is accepted there is a possibility of reconciliation, because I believe that a great deal that is said by extreme Sinn Feiners would be revoked if they saw something like a possible settlement for their country. The only two chances are either to have this as a permanent settlement or to continue the present system with tanks and machine guns.
There is one possibility that my hon. and gallant Friend has not taken into consideration, and I make this suggestion to him. It would surely be possible even at this hour to invite the co-operation of the great Dominions. I know it is said that that is a difficult thing. But they have drawn up their own constitution. They know what a Senate is. They have been through the mill. Before Canada got her constitution there were two revolutions. Surely the wildest Sinn Feiner will admit that Ireland has something to learn from her younger sisters, Canada and Australia, in the work of achieving a constitution. I make this further suggestion. Not only should their co-operation be invited, but that for the purpose of getting an Irish constitution the Irish Convention should sit again, not as a nominated Convention, but as an elected Convention.
I am afraid the hon. Member is again getting away from the Amendment.
I am trying to keep as close to your ruling as I possibly can. I was saying that an Irish settlement would be no use unless it had to a large extent the assent of the people, and you can only get the assent of the people by appealing to the people, and if you will appeal to the people by recalling the Convention, not as a nominated Convention, but as an elected Convention, which has to report its proceedings periodically in public, I think you would have gone a very long way to achieve the desired result. We have all read in the past or heard of the story of Britain against Ireland. When the occasion arises to effect a settlement we say that the price is too high for us to pay. Then the opportunity passes, and when next we seek to effect a settlement the price rises again. Therefore I hope to-night the Committee will seriously consider this Amendment which is put forward with a view to a settlement.
9.0 P.M.
This Amendment has been justified on two main grounds, first of all as affording essential securities for minorities who may suffer from administrative injustices, and secondly, as likely to promote the unity of Ireland more rapidly and more certainly than the arrangements in the terms of the Bill. Those two grounds are perfectly distinct and can be considered separately. I do not propose here to examine the case for the protection of minorities, because there is an Amendment which will come before the Committee at a later stage to establish Second Chambers in Southern and Northern Ireland which can equally effect that purpose, and the Government's decision on the question of minorities will be indicated at that stage. I am therefore only concerned now to consider how far it is desirable to establish a Senate which shall be the authority both for the north and for the south. May I, therefore, remind the Committee that one of the reasons, and one of the most powerful reasons, which led the Government to adopt the single-chamber system, both in Northern and in Southern Ireland, was the desire to promote unity. Under the scheme of the Bill, functions are devolved from the Parliaments on to the Council of Ireland by the machinery of identical Acts, and it seemed to the Government that it would be much better to obtain identical Acts from two Chambers than from four Chambers, and that if you gave Ireland a four-chamber system you would be multiplying obstacles in the way of union. We are asked by the Movers of this Amendment to believe that here we have a remedy against partition. We are told that the Bill in its present shape stereotypes partition, creates vested interests, and inflicts a malady which will never be undone. That is the case, the main case for the Amendment, but I do not think, if I may say so, that the Committee has really seized the essential features of the Bill.
The Bill is grounded upon the principle that, while we can ask Ireland to govern herself, we cannot ask the two opposing factions in Ireland to unite against their will, and accordingly, we establish two bodies, one in the North and one in the South armed with legislative and administrative functions, and, and this is a most important point, armed with constituent functions as well. We are often asked why we do not summon a constituent assembly in Ireland. We are in fact setting up two panels of a constituent assembly, one in the North and one in the South, with perfectly free power to unite in any shape or form in which it may seem to them that union would be most practical and most efficient. It is possible under the scheme of this Bill that these two Parliaments will only hold a single session. They might, so far as the terms of the Bill go, by identical Acts drafted before they actually come into being, create a single Parliament for Ireland. But if we were to give to these two Parliaments a Senate largely nominated, and a Senate which contained a majority from Southern Ireland, we should impinge upon the freedom of the Northern Parliament and create obstacles to the union which we all desire to see achieved. It may be argued that these two Provinces in the present state of feeling are unlikely to unite. I suggest that practical necessity will compel union on a great number of points from the very first. There are many practical spheres of government which cannot be managed with any promise of success except upon an all Ireland plan, and I think there is a sufficient fund of common sense in the North and in the South to realise that the practical, economical and efficient way of managing these non-contentious services is by creating some common machinery, some joint committee, or else by devolving functions upon the Council of Ireland and so creating a common machinery for dealing with those common services. So that I will venture to predict that from the very first there would be common action in respect of a number of spheres of government, but common action not forced upon two reluctant bodies, but grounded upon the fertile soil of assent and commending itself to the members of the two Parliaments, because they see as practical men that any other course would be unworkable.
It is for this reason, and for this reason alone, that the Council of Ireland, which has been derided as a sham body and a mock body and a gas and water Council, has been so largely denuded of functions. We desire, by giving the two Parliaments of the North and South full and unfettered power, to clothe that body with flesh and with muscle and to give it bone. We believe in that way and in that way most securely can we work for the union of Ireland. There is a Clause in the Bill which is, I think, germane to this Amendment to which no attention has yet been drawn That is the Clause which enables either Parliament to withdraw functions which it has already referred to the Council of Ireland. That Clause was inserted because it was believed that if the two Parliaments of the North and the South realised that the devolution of functions to the Council of Ireland was not irrevocable, they would be more willing and more anxious to devolve them. On the other hand, if devolution upon the central body were irrevocable, a further obstacle would be created in the way of unity. In the course of this discussion, we have often been reminded that this is a Bill which nobody in Ireland wants, and comment has been made on the singular lack of interest which is taken in this measure in this House. These are very true observations, but let me observe that it is for that reason and also because we have not here great organised Irish bodies imposing, or working to impose, their ideas upon the British Parliament, that it is incumbent upon us to give to these new Irish bodies every possible power of transforming the constitution in Ireland. We believe that the plan of an Irish Senate suggested in the Amendment will so work as to diminish rather than strengthen the chances of unity. I am reminded of the description of Truth given by one of our old English poets who decribes it as
I should like to support this proposal, but there is a difficulty or two which prevent me from doing so. I do not see how it is going to work. I assume that in the Senate of Ireland there will be no representatives of either the Governments of the Southern or the Northern Parliaments. That being so, there will be very little possibility of raising questions of administration in the Senate, because there will be no one there to answer for them. I cannot see how measures passed by these Southern and Northern Parliaments are going to be guided through the Senate of Ireland. There will be no one there representing either of the Governments of the Northern or the Southern Parliaments. Let us assume that a measure has been passed through the Northern Parliament and that it comes to the Senate.
There is nothing to prevent Members of the Governments being Members of the Senate.
If the Members of the Government are to be drawn from the Senate how are they going to be responsible to either of the two Parliaments? How is a responsible Member of the Government, say, of the Northern Parliament, to be brought into the Senate if the Senate represents the two Parliaments and two governments in Ireland? You cannot have a Senate that represents the two Parliaments which will be able to act as a revising body over measures passed by the two Parliaments and at the same time have Members of the Senate who are Members of both bodies. I cannot myself see how it is possible for that to work. There must be questions relating both to legislation and administration, Northern and Southern, and therefore there should be Members in the Senate to conduct these matters who are Members of both the Northern and the Southern Governments. From that point of view I do not see how it is going to work. Then let me assume that a deadlock arises, say, between the Northern Parliament and the Senate. There may be a difference of opinion with regard to some matter of legislation between the Northern and Southern areas. There is no means that I can see of overcoming it. How is a deadlock to be got rid of under this scheme? For the Senate, or second chamber, represents the two areas, and if that were so, there would be no obvious means of overcoming a deadlock. If the second chamber has representatives of two bodies which have separate powers of legislation and administration, and a deadlock arises between one of these and Government or the Senate, I cannot see how it would be possible for a deadlock to be overcome. On these two grounds, the first that there would be no one in the Senate representing the Northern or the Southern Governments to answer for these Governments and to conduct matters of legislation passed by their two Parliaments through the Senate, and the second, that if a deadlock should arise, as deadlocks must certainly arise, there is no way of overcoming it, I regret that, though I should like to support this proposal, I find it impossible to do so.
The hon. Member who has just spoken has raised a very important subject so far as the possibility of a deadlock is concerned, but I do not see the difficulty. Although I am not in favour of it, I do not see why it should not be done in the same way as in the Parliament Act, or why it could not be applied as well to a joint Senate as to a single Senate.
If the measure be applied to all matters it will be absolutely hopeless. You must provide for a difference of opinion between the two Chambers, but how can that be done if the two have separate powers of legislation? How are you going to obtain harmony in that Chamber with reference to its Government?
That is on the assumption by the hon. Member that there is no possibility of agreement in Ireland. I assume that there is a possibility, and therefore I fail to see the difficulty. Why should there not be some sympathy between the Northern House of Commons and the Senate and also between the Southern House and the Senate. As I understand the proposed Constitution, the Senate is to be largely representative of each body with a certain number of distinguished and impartial persons added. That is the theory which is beneath this Measure, whether it be right or wrong. The Senate is to be representative of both. A Senate so constituted would, I should have thought, be just as likely to be in harmony with each body as any other Upper Chamber. I do not see why, if there were two Lower Chambers to be represented, it should be less likely to be harmonious than if there were one. What you really want in the Upper Chamber is impartiality and detachment, so that it shall judge, free from all party passion and local prejudice, whether in fact a particular measure is good for the community it is proposed to benefit. I should have thought that, so far as that was concerned, a Joint Second Chamber would be quite as likely to be effective as a single one. So far as the difficulty to which my hon. Friend referred in his speech is concerned, the answer surely is that in dealing with deadlocks your Parliament Act machinery, bad as I think it is in many respects, would be equally effective with a Joint Single Chamber as a Single Chamber. That is as far as deadlock is concerned. So far as sympathy is concerned, I have already done my best to answer the point. I do not think there is an impossibility of dealing with the question of Ministers being present. It is conceded that this Senate is not to have any control over the administration. It is not put forward as such; I shall have a word to say later on whether that is really going to be any advantage or not. That is a different point; but so far as dealing with legislation is concerned, I see no difficulty in providing, as is the case in numerous foreign Parliaments, that Ministers should have access to the Second Chamber and should be able to address it when in passing legislation through.
It appears to me that to meet these arguments you have to deal with two main cases. There is the case put forward that it will be a protection to the minority, not only in the South, but in the North also. Remember, and I am sure I shall have the sympathy of the hon. Member on this point, that you have got to consider the minority in the North as much as the minority in the South, and you must provide some protection for both if you are going to make a fair piece of legislation. That is the first point; will it provide any protection? Secondly, will it promote the final unity of Ireland? I will deal with the second point first. There are two answers made. There are the answers made by my hon. and right hon. Friends who sit on this Bench. They say—at any rate, my hon. friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. R. McNeill) says—that unity is only desirable sub rosa. That is a position which is quite defensible; a position which I have often heard argued, and which I am not sure I have not argued myself in times past, that there are, as the Prime Minister put it, clearly and crudely, two nations in Ireland, and you cannot fuse them. That may be so, but I am bound to say that my opinion is veering towards the proposition that the only hope for a satisfactory system of Home Rule, ultimately, is by some method of unity. I do not mean compulsory unity for a moment; nothing which will do any injustice to the people of Ulster, to whom I am honourably bound to the last extent. I certainly would never support any measure which they reasonably thought might be a danger to their liberties, or even to their prejudices. If, however, you do believe in that fusion, that disposes to some extent of the extreme objection to this, that the mere creation of a Senate, which would represent all parts of Ireland, is a danger to Ulster because it might lead to unity, and unity is only desirable if it never takes place. That is a bit of phraseology which perhaps will appeal to my hon. Friends coming from Ireland.
Then there is the answer of the Minister for Education. I never differ from the right hon. Gentleman, except with the greatest misgiving that I must be wrong, but I confess that I listened to his speech, feeling that we really have not got the true explanation of a great deal that is in this Bill, and that, if it is the true explanation, it does appear to me that it is a Bill absolutely divorced from reality. What did his argument really come to? He said, in effect, "You must not do anything which promotes unity in Ireland in this Bill. Any direct attempt to promote unity will only cause disunity. Your proper course is to avoid anything that leads to unity obviously, and that must ultimately be the best way of producing unity." That is not a caricature of his argument; he said it. I confess that the only thing that makes me doubt whether this Bill is really as bad a Bill as it seems to me, is because it is so utterly and patently ridiculous, absurd and impossible that possibly it will, in Ireland, succeed. That is the thing which gives me the most anxiety with reference to the action which I have so far taken in regard to it, and the speech of the Minister for Education makes me think that that really is what he believes to be the defence of it. I do not think that is sound; I think that if you desire to pro-mate unity in Ireland you must create something which will lead in that direction. Is it really thinkable that these two Houses of Commons will ever voluntarily join together? They are to consist of pure politicians; they are to be elected by the ordinary methods of election, and we know quite well that there will be an enormous—I do not quite know what phrase to use without appearing to be offensive—an enormous yellow majority, say, in the North, and an overwhelming green majority in the South.
As big as we can get.
Of course it will be a big one, and I know the hon. and gallant Gentleman's skill and vigour sufficiently to be aware that he will get one that is quite sufficient. Is it really conceivable that after these two bodies have been working and piling up a tradition, as it were, of their own colour, each in their own House of Commons, that they can suddenly commit a kind of marvellous union, sacrificing all their prejudices? I cannot see myself how it is ever going to happen. Will not the Senate, at any rate, introduce into the political life of Ireland the moderate man? I heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn say what an outrage it was, speaking as the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones) spoke, that a free democratic Parliament of Belfast should be controlled by Bishops and chambers of commerce, and all the lowest of mankind. The democracy of Belfast is controlled by the House of Lords at present. Although the House of Lords has not the terrible reputation of chambers of commerce, I am afraid it has got within it some bishops. I have never heard that the democracy of Belfast was excessively restive under that control. Looking at it broadly, will not this Senate really introduce the cross-bench mind, the middle mind, and will not that be the only possibility of salvation in Ireland? Is not the real difficulty in Ireland the prevalence of the extreme mind? I am not making the slightest accusation. It is the result of history of religious differences, of persecution, of penal laws, and all sorts of things that have happened in the past. Is not the introduction of moderation the real hope of unity? I am not particularly wedded to this particular scheme of a Senate. I can see lots of objections to it in detail, but surely some Second Chamber, some moderation of these Parliaments is essential. Even if you take the most sanguine views of the promoters of this Bill, is it not essential to have that element introduced, if it is to work at all?
Coming to the second great argument, my right hon. Friend, I understand, said he was going to deal with the question of the protection of minorities on a later Amendment. I feel great reluctance to part with this Amendment before I know what the Government's proposal is. I agree very largely with the right hon. Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) that all these protections are of very little worth. I know how easy it is to set aside any paper restrictions, any constitutional restrictions by a tyrannically minded people. Still, are we going to do nothing at all for these people? Does the Committee recognise what the position is? I do not care whether Members are Unionists or not, but I ask, do they think what is the position of the southern law-abiding population in Ireland at this moment? It is terrific. There has never been such a disgrace to British Government in its history. It is the greatest scandal that ever existed. It is not the thing of a day. It has been growing, growing, growing for months and for years, and the Government have done nothing to stop it.
Hear, hear— murder every day!
When these men come to us and say, "We think your Bill is going to make things even worse and more hopeless, but in Heaven's name give us some protection," and we think rightly or wrongly that a Senate of this character will be some protection for them, are we going to turn it down because the Minister of Education tells us that it might interfere with the future union of the two? I hope the Committee will decline altogether to part with this Amendment until they hear from the Government a definite statement as to what they will do to protect the Unionists in the South and the Catholics in the North.
I desire to refer to the Noble Lord's remarks, in so far as they deal with the question of unity between north and south. I think a great deal of nonsense has been talked about such unity. Is there any man in this Committee, I care not on what Benches he sits, who thinks that we Unionists and law-abiding citizens in the north ought to desire to be united with the present inhabitants, or with the Sinn Feiners, in the south and west of Ireland? This Debate has developed as though the Sinn Fein party were a minority. Let me remind the Committee that practically the whole of the south and west is composed of these men. Hon. Friends who come from Ireland would probably tell me that a great many people who appear to be Sinn Feiners are not Sinn Feiners. If they are not Sinn Feiners, they are pretending to be Sinn Feiners with remarkable success. What we have to face in Ireland is the fact that what was a few years ago the constitutional Nationalist party has gone over completely from constitutionalism to rebellion and republicanism.
I am afraid the hon. and gallant Member has not yet referred to the Amendment.
I am afraid that in that respect I am not unlike my predecessors. One of the arguments used in support of the Amendment was that it would produce unity. I am trying to show that unity now was not to be expected and was not desirable. I am to unite with the Sinn Feiner. Which of us is to change his political views?
You are both Sinn Feiners!
I say that at the present time and under present circum- stances to talk about unity between North and South, between Loyalists and Sinn Feiners, is absurd nonsense, and hon. Members ought to know that they are talking about the utterly impossible. Let me deal with the Amendment from another point of view. Quite apart from the question of the great difference of our political views, we in the North, who are to have a Parliament of our own, are expected to join a Senate which is made up as to at least half its Members of persons who are in no way subject to the jurisdiction of the Northern Parliament, and we are asked to accept that Senate as the arbiter, the final Court, to which the decisions of our Parliament should be sent. That is a ridiculous suggestion, and it is one which, if devolution were proposed for Scotland, or Wales, or England, would be scouted and thrown out without a moment's hesitation. To expect people in the North of Ireland, in Belfast, for instance, who have passed legislation after due consideration and thought, to tolerate that legislation being revised, and vetoed in some cases, by an assembly composed of people who come from Cork and other parts of Ireland outside our jurisdiction altogether is a suggestion not worth consideration for one moment.
Good old Sinn Fein!
I daresay that I may be deaf, but I do not catch the interruptions of the hon. Gentleman from the East End of London. But to expect a Parliament, such as the Parliament in North-East Ireland will be if this Bill becomes law, to allow its decisions to be modified or vetoed by another assembly composed of persons outside the jurisdiction of that Parliament is ridiculous. I was very pleased to hear that the Government had determined not to accept this Amendment. On the Second Reading of this Bill I said that there is not the slightest hope for a long time of there being unity between North and South Ireland. The right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) has remarked on my statement on more than one occasion. But is it wonderful, when you think that we have been fighting this question for the last 40 years and that the result of that fighting is that, far from there being any signs of unity, at present we have the spectacle of an Ireland infinitely further removed from unity than it has ever been before, that at a time like this I and my friends from Ireland, who understand the position in that country a thousand times better than ordinary Members of this House, should realise that not at the present time, and probably not for a considerable number of years to come, is there the slightest possibility of unity such as is contemplated by this Bill and by many Members of this House?
In the circumstances as they are, we maintain that the Government have dealt with this situation in the right way by this Bill. They are sensible enough to realise that at present there is no possibility of such a union coming about, and that to try unduly to hasten that union would put it more into the background. They have taken the sensible course of setting up two absolutely independent Parliaments in such a way that neither can interfere with the other, and also setting up a Council which at the same time acts as a medium through which unity can be brought about at some future date, but in the meantime with no powers of compulsion on either one or the other towards this end. If union is to come about it is much more likely under the present framework of the Bill, where you have two absolutely independent Parliaments than if you have two Parliaments controlled by a Senate which from the very start would try to arrange things in such a way that the two parties should be drawn together. That would set up a suspicion on the part of the minority. It would set up a feeling, certainly in the North, that they had to be suspicious of every movement which that Senate made. If the Amendment were accepted for the purpose of accelerating unity, it would have the very opposite effect. I trust, therefore, that the House will support the Government in rejecting the Amendment.
The right hon. Gentleman who spoke for the Government (Mr. Fisher) referred to the intentions of the Government with regard to the protection of the minority. I am sorry that he is not here now, because I would like to inquire exactly what he meant. I understood him to say that he would not deal with that aspect of this Amendment now, because a subsequent Amendment on the Paper proposed two Second Chambers, one for Northern and one for Southern Ireland, and that the Government would then state their views. But may we not know the views of the Government on the Amendment before the Committee?
This Amendment is setting up a Senate which will be centralised, and, so far as it went, would control both Parliaments. The Amendment to which my right hon. Friend referred, and which stands in the name of the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare), definitely raises the other question.
My right hon. Friend was not here when the Minister for Education was speaking. I am within the recollection of the Committee when I say that his right hon. Friend began by saying that this Amendment has two aspects, one the bi-cameral aspect and the other with regard to the protection of minorities. On the question of the protection of minorities, there are many of us who think that this Senate will provide some sort of protection to the law-abiding population in the south and west of Ireland. We may be right or wrong, but that is what we think. Are we not entitled to know what are the views of the Government? We have heard only one speech for the Government during the whole course of this Debate, and it contained nothing whatever on that point. This Debate has been going on for some hours, and the general arguments on the question have been made. But I wish to make an appeal to the Committee on behalf of the law-abiding people in the south and west of Ireland I am sure that that appeal will be received sympathetically in all quarters of the House, because the position of those people is pitiable beyond words at present. What is it going to be under this Bill with no protection whatever for minority in the south and west of Ireland? If hon. Members look at the speeches of, I will not say my right hon. Friend on the Front Bench now (Mr. Long), but if they look at the speeches of right hon. Gentlemen who are Members of the Government, they will see constant repetitions with regard to the protection of minorities in the Government of Ireland Bill. There are some thousands of people who in the south and west of Ireand who, unfortunately, have not got enough votes to secure fair representation, and this Bill contains for them not one word whatever of protection. When my hon. and gallant Friend gets up and, thinking of that law-abiding minority in the south, endeavours to put forward an Amendment by which he believes some protection to these people would be given, the Government will not even deal with the point in their answer.
I have been for so many years a strong supporter of my friends in Ulster that I think they will realise that nothing could induce me to rise to-night and take an opposite view to their view if I were not honestly convinced that there is substance in the Amendment before the Committee. I am particularly reluctant to take the opposite side to the side which has been taken by the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson), whom I have always not only admired but revered, but I am encouraged to do so, and my reluctance and diffidence have been somewhat reduced, by two things that have happened to-night. One is that the Minister for Education has convinced me that it is possible even for great men to make mistakes and to be wrong on particular points. We all know that on very great authority the truth lies at the bottom of a well, but the Minister for Education tonight quoted another authority who said that truth lived at the top of a high and difficult mountain. Therefore, if it is possible even for great men to make mistakes, it is possible, if I may say so, for my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Duncairn to-night to have taken a wrong side. There is another thing which has encouraged me to take the opposite view to him, and that is this. We all know that when an Amendment is moved in this House a supporter of that Amendment sometimes gets up and damns it with faint praise. The opposite has happened to-night. My hon. and gallant Friend has moved an Amendment, and the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn got up in opposition and praised it with faint damns. We all know how eloquent the right hon. and learned Gentleman can be, and we all know what force he can put into his arguments, but tonight his arguments were mild, and there was no particular fire in his speech, and I think we may say his condemnations of the Amendment were not very severe. He did raise some objections to the Amendment. He laid his finger upon the Schedule and criticised the suggested composition of the Senate, but that is hardly a point which is essential to this Amend- ment, because when we reach the Schedule, if there are any sound criticisms of it, they can at that point, no doubt, be put forward and the Schedule amended. Therefore, I think that point is not one which can be unduly stressed.
Then the right hon. Gentleman said, with truth, that administration was really the most important thing and that the suggested Senate would have no power of administration. That is true, but, after all, administration must to a large extent depend upon the legislation which is passed, and if the Senate had power of suspending or modifying violent and rash legislation, surely that does tend in the direction of improving the administration. Apart from that, I would like to point out that the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not suggest any alternative by which administration could be better influenced than by the Senate which is proposed. It is said by the right hon. and learned Gentleman that they were charged with the untrue suggestion that Ulster never agreed to anything. J agree that that is untrue, and I suggest that they have an opportunity to-night of proving it untrue by agreeing to put their wit, their wisdom, and their sagacity at the service of their country in the Senate, which would tend towards the protection of the loyal minority in Southern Ireland. I agree with the last speaker that the conditions in Southern Ireland are appalling, and I have means of knowing. I am a Southern Irishman myself, and I have interests in that country, I have relations, there, and I believe it is not realised yet how appalling the conditions are, but I would ask my Friends from Belfast to-recall for a moment the speeches they have made about the disloyalists of Southern Ireland, and if they will do that they will the better appreciate why it is; that we in the South of Ireland are appalled at the idea that we are to be handed over to the government of those very disloyalists whom they condemn, and how dismayed we are at the idea that our friends in Ulster, whom we have supported so loyally in the past, will not at. least make the concession of coming to help us in the Senate which we propose-to set up as the only practical step that we can think of for the protection of this unhappy minority in Southern Ireland, who are in danger because they are loyalists and friends of Britain and friends of Ulster. It is for that very reason they are in danger, and that, I think, gives a point to our appeal when we say to them, "Come and help us; place your wisdom and sagacity into the common pool." It may or it may not be a little sooner or a little later for unity. The point is that we want their help in these first few years, when we are in danger of being in the position of toads under the harrow.
10.0 P.M.
It has been suggested to-night by a Member of the Government that if we refuse to support this Amendment, there may be another Amendment coming along upon which the Government will express an opinion when that time arrives. That is a dark saying, and it is not giving much guidance to us now, but when I heard that, I was reminded of the fable of the dog who dropped a bone into the river in the endeavour to seize the shadow which was miraged there. I for one would rather support this Amendment, which is something tangible, than rely upon the remote possibility that at some future stage of the Bill we may get something which may be nearly as good. The hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. R. McNeill) drew an analogy between what happened in 1912 and 1914, and he suggested that my hon. And gallant Friend was inconsistent to-day in moving his Amendment, which proposes the partition of Ireland, because he had supported the Ulster movement in 1912 and 1914. I cannot admit the correctness of that analogy. The alternative then was entirely different. The question in 1912 and 1914 was coercion of Ulster or not the coercion of Ulster. The alternative to-day is whether Ulstermen will agree to help the loyalists of the South of Ireland or not. I think, therefore, the remark of my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury must have fallen unguardedly from him, at a moment when he did not quite realise the utter falseness of the analogy.
I do not see the relevance of my hon. Friend's remarks at all. What I was pointing out to my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness) was that he was then in favour of partition, and he is now against it. The considerations of my hon. Friend opposite are quite irrelevant.
May I explain? I was not in favour of partition in 1914. It was not then a question of partition or no partition; it was a question of forcing Ulster, with no safeguards, under a Dublin Parliament, and I preferred partition to that
I would, in conclusion again stress this point, that we who are connected with the South of Ireland are really appalled at the possibility of the situation, and we do appeal to our friends in Ulster, to whom we have been so loyal for so many years, to stretch every point as far as they can to help us, and, at all events, if they cannot help us, not to go against us. It may be too much to ask some of our Ulster friends to vote with us on this occasion, but I think we are entitled to ask them to think of the past, and by their knowledge of the dangers with which we are faced, at all events not to go into the Division Lobby against us.
I rise to lend my support to this Amendment. I cannot help saying that the thing that struck me most about this Bill when I came to this House from Ireland was the entire, or almost entire, want of reality in the appreciation of the facts of the situation in Ireland. Hon. Members have spoken of the possibility of the Government giving up the Government of Ireland in the near future. I submit that they have already done it. The King's Writ no longer runs in the South of Ireland, and in the very unlikely event of this Bill, if it ever becomes an Act, ever being put into force in Ireland, we ought to do whatever we can to make it a workable reality. The forces of disloyalty have completely captured the whole of the South of Ireland. What one wants to try and bring about is that, if the Bill becomes law, there should be some chance of the present disloyal elements in the South of Ireland standing in and accepting the Bill. As matters stand at the present time one sees no possible hope of that, but, with a view to its being made something of a reality, I entirely agree with the proposer and supporter of the Amendment that this is a very important thing. It will satisfy a, part of the feeling and craving that we have that some day or another Ireland may be a united nation. We belong to the ephemeral. We must not lose sight of the fact that we are not legislating now for all time, and that some time or another we will all have passed away and be succeeded by another generation; we must allow for the possibility of union taking place among our successors, although just now' we cannot see the mechanism by which that union is to be brought about. "We thank, with brief thanksgiving, whatever gods may be, that no man lives for ever." The people who are speaking on this Bill are no exception to that rule. Therefore, I wish to add my support to this Amendment, and to say in my opinion it is an important one; important and more desirable than the other Amendment put forward. Ireland so far as I know, is under this Bill to become the first democratic country where a single-chamber legislature is to be imposed. I think that under any circumstances, Ireland is the last country in the world where such an experiment should be tried, and that this time is of all times the most unsuitable for trying that experiment. These, therefore, are my reasons for supporting the Amendment, which I hope the Government will see their way to accept.
I desire to support the appeal made to the Government to give us a little more information in order to make it easier for us to make up our minds. The Government agree that something has to be done to protect the interests of minorities, and they tell us that they propose to inform us on the next Amendment what they are going to do for the protection of minorities. If that is the position, how can we decide now whether the offer is worth accepting, or whether we should refrain from voting for this Amendment in view of a declaration of policy which is going to be made later. I do not know whether the Government have yet made up their own mind. If they are asking us to vote against this Amendment because some concession is to be made on the subsequent Amendment, it is unheard of not to say what that concession is which is going to be made. I agree entirely with the last speaker as to the need for an Upper House, because if there is any place and time when a Second Chamber is necessary, that place is Ireland, and the time is now. But after the arguments which have been used I must say that I am rather sceptical as to what the concession is going to be in respect to establishing a Second Chamber in both the Parliaments in the north and the south.
The Minister for Education said that there were always difficulties in Second Chambers, and that it will be particularly difficult to agree to a Second Chamber in the two Houses of Parliament in Ireland because you would want four Houses to get an identical Act through, and that would make the operation of this Bill more difficult. If that is the reasoning in the mind of the Minister for Education and the Government, when we come to the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare) the Government may not accept it because they may say that the purpose of ultimate union is made more difficult. There are a great many hon. Members who feel in a very sincere difficulty over this Amendment. They are prepared to accept from the Government any reasonable measure which will protect minorities in the north and the south, but they are not prepared to accept an instruction from the Government blind folded without knowing what is to be put in place of this amendment. I think I appreciate even more than the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) what was in the mind of the Minister for Education when he said it was difficult to accept a single Senate because he said that it was forcing the means of union and not leaving it to come by common consent. There is force in that argument, but if we accept that argument it is leading us into a very difficult position without knowing whether any real Amendment is going to be accepted to protect minorities. I ask the Government to let us know what they are going to give us in place of this Amendment?
I should like to join in the appeal that has been made to the Government to accept this Amendment. In the course of the Debate on the Amendment moved by the right hon, Gentleman the Member for Paisley, the Leader of the House made a moving and sincere appeal to the Committee generally to lift the whole question of this Bill outside the bounds of party spirit. Whether or not that was responded to then, I think the effect of that Amendment has been to clear away almost the only issue on this Bill on which there can be any manifestation of party spirit, and that on the remaining provisions of the Bill the whole wisdom of the Committee may be concentrated, not with regard to any question of party, but with regard to getting the very best possible settlement of these questions for Ireland. It seems to me that the support which this Amendment is receiving from all parts of the Committee is the best evidence of an endeavour to deal with this question in a non-party spirit. There is, perhaps, an unusual coalition in the joint support that has been given to the Amendment from this side of the House and by hon. Members opposite. The reality of that can best be guaged by realising that, in supporting an Amendment of this kind, there is a certain amount of giving from this part of the Committee. This Motion to appoint a Senate opens up two entirely different questions. It opens. up a prospect of unity, in which we are entirely at one with hon. Members opposite; but it also opens up a prospect of control over the legislation of Southern Ireland, and the question of a bi-cameral system— of what may be practically a House of Lords, which may have some effect on the legislation proposed by the Southern Parliament. On this side we are prepared to risk that, because we believe that the proposal affords the largest chance that this Bill has of setting up machinery which will ultimately lead to what we all want to arrive at, namely, the unity of Ireland. It is upon that ground that we lend support to this Government. If the Government are really sincere in endeavouring to settle this Irish question in a non-party spirit, here is their chance in this proposal, which practically comes from all parts of the Committee. If it has any opposition at all, it comes from one of the portions of Ireland which is affected. If the Government wish to give an earnest to the Committee and to the country that they are really making a genuine effort to bring about a settlement of the Irish Question, they can best do it by accepting this Amendment. When it is realised from what quarter this proposal originated, and from what quarters it is supported, I cannot imagine any other Amendment upon which such unity of opinion from different political camps could be expressed as is being expressed here. It may be that different Members attach different weights to the different considerations. With some of us the question of unity may weigh more than the question of protection, and with others the question of protection may weigh more than that of unity. Whether it is protection or whether it is unity, many of us feel that, if there is any provision which can lead in either of these directions, it is this proposal for a joint Senate.
One or two practical considerations have been advanced, and none more practical than that of the hon. Member who spoke last, as to the almost irresistible obstacle that will stand in the way of unity if there is going to be a bi-cameral system in both Parliaments, with the consequent necessity for four identical Acts in every case. It appears to me that that would make unity as impossible as the wit of man could make it. If this Amendment be accepted, that difficulty cannot arise. A very strong argument in favour of such a Senate as is proposed is this: There must be, when legislation is proposed, a number of questions arise on which it is difficult to decide whether they really exclusively apply to Northern or to Southern Ireland, and you may have the Legislature of Northern Ireland passing some law which in fact affects Southern Ireland, and you may have the Legislature of Southern Ireland passing a law which affects Northern Ireland. As far as I can see, under the Bill there is no provision at all for determining whether such a law is ultra vires or not. If a single Senate is adopted, all measures, whether they come from Southern or Northern Ireland, will come before the Senate and that difficulty will be resolved. So that, apart from the question of unity and apart from the question of protection, from the point of view of administration the Amendment offers a solution of what is bound to be one of the most vexed problems we shall have to deal with. From all these points of view it appears to me that if the Government are really in earnest, and want to show that the solution they are proposing is put forward in the hope of effecting a settlement, they will agree to the Amendment.
The most illuminating observation which has fallen from the hon. and gallant Gentleman is that he is prepared to risk anything. Of course he is. He has nothing at stake. He is the kind of gentleman who could trust a pickpocket with his neighbour's purse to prove the pickpocket's honesty. In a speech he made in another place not so long ago, I presume to conciliate angry constituents, the hon. and gallant Gentleman explained that politically he had got into the wrong train and had taken the risk of jumping out while the train was in motion. I recall a case in which that actually happened physically. The gentleman had not a single bone broken, any more than the hon. and gallant Gentleman had politically, but he landed in a manure heap and that saved him. The hon. and gallant Gentleman has fallen out of the train again, and the results I fear are going to be equally unhappy. The main objection of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame) is that the Government has not disclosed its intention as fully as he would desire, and just for that reason this Amendment is of course right. I have not heard a more ridiculous proposition put forward in support of this Amendment, that because someone else is wrong this is right.
I said I understood we were asked by the Government to vote against the Amendment because concessions were going to be made to minorities on the next Amendment.
No, no.
I am in the recollection of the House. I said it was unreasonable to ask us to vote until they had disclosed what were their concessions.
I have no desire to misrepresent my hon. and gallant Friend. I wish he were equally desirous not to misrepresent himself. His reasoning may have been confused. He may have meant one thing, but he undoubtedly said another. My hon. and gallant Friend who moved this Amendment has harnessed up a most extraordinary team, and he has somehow managed to get on the box seat and get hold of the ribbons. This is what has happened to his team. Some are heading in one direction and others in another, and the result is you have one half of the team pulling in one direction and the other half are endeavouring to get on the box seat beside my hon. Friend. It is seriously suggested on the one hand that the Senate which is proposed to be set up is to have no administrative functions and no legislative functions. I know what is in my hon. Friends' minds, but they have not made it clear. On the other hand the Senate is put up as the sole protection for minorities in the south. If they cannot protect them in matters of administration, and if they cannot protect them in legislation, what kind of protection will they give them? The Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) discussed a certain aspect of this Amendment, the constitutional aspect, in what I may say, with deep respect, was rather a curious argumentative attitude. He defended the proposal, as I understand it. He defends also, I understand, thorough democratic institutions. I ask him to defend this Amendment as a democratic proposal. It is a proposal that three-fourths of the Senate, which is to be the one Senate for all Ireland are to be drawn from an area outside one of the Parliaments over which it is to exercise a kind of jurisdiction.
Nonsense!
The Noble Lord says "nonsense," and some hon. Members say it is not true. Let us see whether it is or not. These remarks show that they really do not understand their own Amendment. Over 40 members of the Senate will be drawn from outside Ulster.
Are there no Ulster peers?
Let me get on with my argument. The hon. Member will find I will do him no injustice. His observation is a clear indication that he does not understand the Amendment. He knows, and ho need not pretend with any sort of hypocrisy in this Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh." Withdraw.] I shall not shrink in the least degree from it. I will justify it. He has set out a great litany of individuals who are to compose the Senate. He knows that the main body of peers will be drawn from peers in the south of Ireland, and not in the north. I have looked carefully into the effect of this Amendment and I know what will happen under it. At least 40 Members of the Senate will be drawn from outside Ulster. If there were only two, the point I make is equally good. What right have two peers of a Senate drawn from entirely outside the area of a Parliament over which they propose to exercise jurisdiction to sit on any such Senate? They are not answerable to any Parliament over which they exercise jurisdiction [HON. MEMBERS: "The House of Lords are not.'] That is precisely the point. This is pro- posed to be a democratic institution, a model institution. The framers of the Amendment have devoted an immense amount of time to this business, and this is the kind of thing they have evolved—a political monstrosity, worthy of its parentage in every kind of way. I know that the purpose of some the interruptions is to put a young Member out of his stride, but they may give it up as I shall remain in my stride.
An hon. Gentleman opposite made a strong appeal to us by the memory of old friendships and of common loyalty to a great principle which the party for whom he speaks deserted at the most critical hour. I will go so far as to say that, so far as they could accomplish it in the Irish Convention, they treated us traitorously. We bear them no grudge for that. I will show in a moment that we do not. If they would put forward an Amendment that is really workable and that is democratic and that is rational, and will give effective protection to the minority in the South, I am perfectly certain there is not a single Member who sits on those Benches with me who would not give it his heartiest support. But when a proposal of this kind is put forward we have to examine it in the light of our responsibilities, and this evolves from our examination. We look at the composition of the Senate and we see the power of veto which it is proposed to give to it. We know the real reason that rankles in the minds of hon. Gentlemen who are members of the Anti-Partition League from which this Amendment comes. That is the genesis of it and the meaning of it. The real purpose is to set up some kind of body which would constantly exercise the right of veto upon the Ulster Parliament and exercise control over every kind of measure brought forward, and finally produce such an impasse that the whole Government would break down and we should be driven into an all-Ireland Parliament. They tell us their position in a Southern Parliament will be absolutely impossible and they invite us in the name of common friendship and ancient loyalty to proceed to commit suicide with them. We cannot assent to that proposition. We say that this which is put forward as a serious Amendment is a piece of humbug, and that the real reason behind it is absolute wrecking. An Amendment which does not give either administrative or legislative protection to the minority in the South is all a sham, and to ask us to assent is to ask us to approve of a piece of transparent hypocrisy.
I think that those of us who support this Amendment are entitled to some answer from the Government. The Minister of Education stated that one of the two main points raised by this Amendment was the protection of the orderly and loyalist minority in the South and the West of Ireland, and proceeded to say that on some future Amendment to Clause 4, I think, the Government's proposals would be made known—
No, no.
I was here and the right hon. Gentleman was not.
No, I said on an Amendment.
I accept the right hon. Gentleman's statement. Whether it is on the next or some other Amendment that the Government will state their views is really immaterial, because we have got to decide now how we shall vote on this Amendment, and we want to know before we do so what are the Government proposals to protect the loyalist minority outside Ulster. We may be wrong, but we do set considerable store by this Amendment, and we consider that the Senate which will have a certain amount of control over these two Parliaments will, by its composition, be able to see that there is no bullying of minorities either by the Ulster people in the North or by the people in Leinster, Munster, or Connaught. We are not asking for anything unreasonable; in fact, we are only asking for our rights when we ask that the Government should tell us before we go to a Division what they mean to do. If I were the hon. Member who moved this Amendment, failing any answer from the Government, I should move the adjournment of the Debate in order that we might find out the intentions of the Government before we take a Division. After all, those of us who have interests in Ireland, who live there and who know something of what is going on there, though not all, because no one can understand the Irish question, do really appreciate that somebody like this Senate, if and when the Home Rule Parliaments are set up, would be a very con- siderable protection to the law-abiding people up and down the country. The position of ex-service men at the present time, even with the Union, is intolerable. They have to take refuge in Dublin, and many of them have to come over to England because they are not safe in Ireland. They cannot get employment and they cannot get their pensions. I will not recount all their woes, but, if their position be such under the Union with the Government willing, if not able, to afford them protection, what will be their position unless we have some over-riding body such as this Senate to give them some protection under Home Rule. Therefore, apart from the merits of the Amendment —I see very many bad points in it administratively and I quite see the points made by my hon. Friends—I do think that the Government will not be treating in the House courteously unless before we go to a Division they tell us what they are going to do for the loyalist minority.
My hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down indulged in some of his usual criticisms about the action of the Government. He is very angry because we have not replied, not to this Amendment, but to the Amendment that comes next on the Paper.
No.
I beg my hon. and gallant Friend's pardon. I was not present, as he reminded me, but it turns out that though he was present my information was more accurate than his.
Quite right.
The President of the Board of Education told me exactly what he had said. This particular Amendment raises one question, the main question, directly, and the second question only indirectly. The main 'question with which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education dealt—he could not have done otherwise without discourtesy to the House—is the setting up of a Senate which is to occupy a position totally different from that which it is proposed by the Government shall be occupied by the Council, or the liaison body. That is clear, because the arguments of my hon. Friends, who have recommended the adoption of this Amendment, have all been addressed to show that this Senate would be a protection for the minority, especially in the south of Ireland. The Senate could only be a protection for the minority in the south of Ireland if it had powers which enabled it to control the Parliaments of the north and the south. The point is not worth arguing. It is perfectly obvious that this Senate can only secure the protection of the minorities if it has power of control over the two Parliaments. I have said it before, and I say again, that our limitation, if you like so to term it, our pledges, as I prefer to call them, make it perfectly clear that the position of these two Parliaments in the north and south must be clear and absolutely independent. To establish a Senate in the place of our Council, which would have a controlling power over either of these Parliaments would be, in our opinion, to go in the absolute teeth of the pledges which have been made on both sides by successive Prime Ministers, and would destroy the whole foundation and fabric of our Bill. Therefore, this Amendment as it stands, for the imposition—for that is what it means—of a governing body over subordinate bodies, strikes at the very root of our Bill, and in resisting it I believe we shall be supported by the Committee.
My hon. Friend who has just spoken attacked me and other Members on this Bench with great vehemence, because we have not done—what? He actually went as far as to say that we were guilty of discourtesy. These charges are not lightly thrown about in the House of Commons, and really no such a charge as that of discourtesy rests for a moment. We are dealing with an Amendment which, if it does not mean what I have described, is a farce; and if it does not mean that you are going to create a separate body which will control two separate Legislatures means nothing. We are asked to accept this as a protection for minorities. I will say a word about the general principle with regard to that in a moment. We have not heard a single word from the advocates of this Amendment to show that this Senate would be any protection for any minority. I am not quite sure how it is going to be constituted. In this Debate, we have heard what everybody who knows anything about Ireland knows—and I think it would be true of every country governed under a constitutional system— that whatever protection you may give in regard to legislation you cannot protect against administration. I believe that to be true; Sinn Fein got control of and ran local boards. I believe if you can control localities and centralise administration, legislation becomes of secondary importance, because you can tyrannise over people by administrtion without any alteration in the law. What have the advocates of this Amendment to say from this point of view? How is this Senate composed? There is not on it, according to the lists on the Paper, and unless these lists are misleading, a single Member of the Governments of these two Parliaments. It is composed of a fanciful body with no responsibility to the Government, with no control over local affairs, and by local affairs I mean Irish affairs. My hon. Friend said if you adopt the principle you will alter the constitution. That is quite true, and it is an answer so far as it goes; but surely it relieves me of the charge that the Government have been guilty of discourtesy and shortcomings, because they have not answered before.
We were anxious, in the first place, to know what the attitude of the Committee was on the general question of the protection of minorities. I anticipated that there would be violent attacks made upon some of us. I do not know whether it is the most effective way of securing an alteration in a Bill, but it always gives a great deal of satisfaction to the people who use the strong language. Both in the Committee over which I presided and in the Government to which I belong, we have given the most exhaustive consideration to this question of the protection of minorities One hon. Member, I forget who, made the rather surprising declaration that the single chamber system did not exist anywhere, and that this was an experiment. Let me state what was the fact brought before the Committee which, more than any other body, prepared this Bill. When you set up local government in the Dominion of Canada you had a second chamber in all the old parts of Canada. What is the fact to-day? That in every one of the provinces, except one—there may be a second, though I am not sure—with the exception of Quebec and perhaps one of the maritime provinces, every second chamber has been abandoned. Why? Because the second chamber was found not to be a protection; on the contrary, it was rather a danger. That was the reason why they gradually gave them up. We had great doubts as to whether a second chamber was in itself a real protection for minorities, and as to whether we had not better follow the practice which had been found most effective in the Dominion of Canada. On the other hand, we had to consider whether, either in the northern or southern part of Ireland, the people who were mainly concerned believed that they would find security in a second chamber.
There has been no exaggeration in the statements made to-night as to the conditions in parts of the South of Ireland. Everybody knows you cannot exaggerate. The horrors are so great that one hates even to think of them, much less talk about them, and the paralysis of the law in dealing with them is terrible at this moment. It is not due, as some of my hon. Friends have suggested, to want of energy or attention or work on the part of the Government, but it is due to a breakdown, and is terrible. I do not wonder that those who look forward to being governed by a Parliament elected by people who at present tyrannise, as they do, over the South of Ireland, ask for protection. The pledge given by the President of the Board of Education did not deal with this, which is raised directly by an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Baronet who represents Chelsea (Sir S. Hoare). He raises the direct question of a Second Chamber, as a protection for minorities. There is no desire to keep our hand up our sleeves to conceal our views or mislead the Committee. We believe that we ought to take our example from the great Dominions, where people are just as fond of their history and as proud of their liberties as they are here. We believe that that is the best precedent which we can get. But we cannot know that those who have to carry out this may not take a different view.
When my right hon. Friend said that the Government decision would be announced later, he did not mean that the mind of the Government was not made up. What the Government mean is that if it is desired that a Second Chamber should be set up either in North Ireland or South Ireland, or in both, they certainly will not prevent it. What I would ask the Committee to realise is that it involves a considerable change in the Bill. It involves a great deal of practical working out, because I have shown that the Schedule here is thoroughly unsatisfactory from the point of view of giving protection to minorities. If you are going to have a Second Chamber, it must be one which must be a real protection, not only in legislation but also in administration. It must be composed of those who will be actively concerned in the prominent affairs of the country and must give some security to the minority that they will find protection that they will not find in any other way. All that cannot be done in one Amendment. I state frankly what the views of the Government are. If, on the other hand, those who have to work under it, and in whose keeping this legislation will hereafter be, believe that they ought to have a Second Chamber, then let us say on the Report Stage, we can consider what proposals can be made for that purpose that will be really effective.
Before we go to a Division, are we to understand that the Government will support an Amendment which will set up a Second Chamber, either in the South of Ireland or in the North of Ireland, if they are asked by representatives like my hon. Friend (Lieut. Colonel Guinness) or my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson)?
My right hon. Friend cannot expect me to say that we should support proposals which have not yet seen the light. We offer no objection whatever to the adoption of a scheme of a Second Chamber for either or both of these two Irish Parliaments, but before the Government are asked to commit themselves they must be satisfied of two things, first, that the proposals are workable, and second, that they have the support of a considerable section of this House.
I do not think that that amounts to very much. I was doubtful how we ought to vote, but I would like to draw attention to the very contradictory speeches of my hon. Friend (Mr. Moles) and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education. The right hon. Gentleman opposed the Amendment, because he said it was not going to lead to unity; the hon. Gentleman below me said it was a hypocritical Amendment, which was meant to lead to unity, and therefore he was going to oppose it.
The hon. Baronet either did not hear me at all or—
Yes, I did.
Then he completely misunderstood me. I made no observation that could in any way be construed as opposed to unity.
Are the Government going to provide any protection for the minorities, or are they not? That is the point. If they would say "Yes" or "No" we should know how to vote.
11.0 P.M.
My right hon. Friend the First Lord has tried to answer the question, and I can only give the same answer, but I hope it will be accepted as understood. It is utterly unreasonable to ask any Government to express its view on an Amendment before we have had any discussion as to what that Amendment is. We have said we wish to some extent to be guided by the Committee, but we have no objection in principle to the Amendment and will discuss it fairly when it comes up.
There is a very large amount of dubiety in the minds of a large number of hon. Members. Is there any need to take a Division on this to-night? It would be very useful to a large number of Members to know further what the intentions of the Government are, and I therefore suggest that it should stand over.
Surely this particular Amendment has been adequately discussed. The next Amendment will be discussed when we next resume this Bill. I therefore would appeal to the Committee to come to a decision now.
Question put, "That the words 'the Irish Senate' be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 39; Noes, 209.
Division No. 106.] AYES. [11.0 p.m. Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hills, Major John Waller Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Duncannon, Viscount Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Hogge, James Myles Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Entwlstle, Major C. F. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Gwynne, Rupert S. Johnstone, Joseph Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Hayward, Major Evan Lioyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Murray, Lt.-Col. Hon. A. (Aberdeen) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Woods, Sir Robert Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross) Wallace, J. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Raffan, Peter Wilson Williams, Col. P. (Middlesbrough, E.) Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John Wilson, Capt. A. S. (Holderness) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Winterton, Major Earl Lieut.-Colonel W. Guinness and Mr. Ormsby-Gore.
NOES. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Forrest, Walter Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Fraser, Major Sir Keith Murray, John (Leeds, West) Ainsworth, Captain Charles Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E Murray, Major William (Dumfries) Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Neal, Arthur Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster) Archdale, Edward Mervyn Glyn, Major Ralph Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Atkey, A. R. Goff, Sir R. Park O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Baird, John Lawrence Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Baldwin, Stanley Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Palmer, Brigadier-General G. L. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Greenwood, William (Stockport) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Barlow, Sir Montague Greer, Harry Perkins, Walter Frank Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Greig, Colonel James William Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Barnston, Major Harry Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pilditch, Sir Philip Beauchamp, Sir Edward Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes) Hambro, Captain Angus Valdemar Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Benn, Com. Ian H. (Greenwich) Hanna, George Boyle Pratt, John William Bennett, Thomas Jewell Harmsworth, Hon. E. C. (Kent) Prescott, Major W. H. Betterton, Henry B. Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Purchase, H. G. Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Raeburn, Sir William H. Borwick, Major G. O. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Reid, D. D. Bowyer, Captain G. E. W. Hood, Joseph Remer, J. R. Breese, Major Charles E. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Remnant, Colonel Sir James F. Bridgeman, William Clive Hopkins, John W. W. Richardson, Sir Albion (Camberwell) Briggs, Harold Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Brown, Captain D. C. Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Howard, Major S. G. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hurd, Percy A. Royden, Sir Thomas Burdon, Colonel Rowland Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Jephcott, A. R. Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange) Butcher, Sir John George Jesson, C. Seddon, J. A. Campbell, J. D. C. Jodrell, Neville Paul Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South) Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Casey, T. w. Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly) Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. G. F. Chadwick, R. Burton Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr Steel, Major S. Strang Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Kidd, James Strauss, Edward Anthony Child, Brigadier-General Sir Hill King, Commander Henry Douglas Sturrock, J. Leng Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Knights, Capt. H. N. (C'berwell, N.) Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Clough, Robert Lane-Fox, G. R. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Larmor, Sir Joseph Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Cobb, Sir Cyril Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Thorpe, Captain John Henry Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Waring, Major Walter Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H. Conway, Sir W. Martin Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Watson, Captain John Bertrand Coote, William (Tyrone, South) Lindsay, William Arthur Wheler, Major Granville C. H. Cope, Major Wm. Lister, Sir R. Ashton Whitla, Sir William Courthope, Major George L. Lloyd, George Butler Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South) Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Lonsdale, James Rolston Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Lorden, John William Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Loseby, Captain C. E. Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Dawes, James Arthur Lyle, C. E. Leonard Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge) Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham) Lynn, R. J. Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Dixon, Captain Herbert M'Guffin, Samuel Wilson, Lieut.-Col. M. J. (Richmond) Donald, Thompson Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Wilson-Fox, Henry Edgar, Clifford B. M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W. Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West) Edge, Captain William M'Micking, Major Gilbert Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Edwards, John H. (Glam., Neath) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Maddocks, Henry Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Falcon, Captain Michael Mallalieu, F. W. Yeo, Sir Alfred William Farquharson, Major A. C. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon) Fildes, Henry Marriott, John Arthur Ransome Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L. Matthews, David Younger, Sir George Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Mitchell, William Lane Ford, Patrick Johnston Moles, Thomas TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Foreman, Henry Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Forestier-Walker, L. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Ward.
It being after Eleven o'Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Re-port to the House.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday next.
Invergordon Harbour (Transfer) Expenses
Order for Committee read, and discharged.
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
Canada
Minister-Plenipotentiary, United States
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [ Lieut. Colonel Sir R. Sanders. ]
May I ask the Leader of the House whether he can make any announcement with regard to the diplomatic relations between the Dominion of Canada and the United States?
I may explain to the House that the reason I am making this statement now instead of at Question time is that we desire that the announcement should be made simultaneously in the British and Canadian Houses of Commons.
As a result of recent discussions, an arrangement has been concluded between the British and Canadian Governments to provide more complete representation at Washington of Canadian interests than has hitherto existed. Accordingly it has been agreed that His Majesty, on the advice of his Canadian Ministers, shall appoint a Minister Plenipotentiary, who will have charge of Canadian affairs, and will at all times be the ordinary channel of communication with the United States Government in matters of purely Canadian concern, acting upon instruction from, and reporting direct to, the Canadian Government. In the absence of the Ambassador, the Canadian Minister will take charge of the whole Embassy and of representation of Imperial, as well as Canadian, interests. He will be accredited by His Majesty to the President with necessary powers for the purpose.
This new arrangement will not denote any departure, either on the part of the British Government or of the Canadian Government, from the principle of diplomatic unity of the British Empire.
Need for this important step has been fully realised by both Governments for some time. For a good many years there has been direct communication between Washington and Ottawa, but the constantly increasing importance of Canadian interests in the United States had made it apparent that Canada should be represented there in some distinctive manner, for this would doubtless tend to expedite negotiations, and naturally first-hand acquaintance with Canadian conditions would promote good understanding. In view of the peculiarly close relations that have always existed between the people of Canada and those of the United States, it is confidently expected as well that this new step will have the very desirable result of maintaining and strengthening friendly relations and co-operation between the British Empire and the United States.
Coal Production
Industrial and Household Supplies (Increased Prices)
I am sure that anything that will improve the relations between Canada and the United States is a matter which this House will always welcome. At Question time I gave notice that to night I would ask the President of the Board of Trade a question with regard to an answer he gave in respect to the price of coal. I think the House was informed that on Wednesday, the day after tomorrow, the price of household coal will be increased by 14s. 2d. per ton. We have now only a quarter of an hour to discuss: this question, and I do not propose to go go into any details, except to say this; Surely it is an extra ordinary procedure to announce on Monday of this week, without any figures upon it, an increase on the basis of which the ordinary householder has to pay 14s. 2d. a ton for coal than he is called upon to pay for it to-day. As a matter of fact, so far as the domestic householder who consumed coal by the hundred weight is concerned, he will have to pay 8½d. more on every bag of coal carried up the tenement stairs throughout the length and breadth of this kingdom.
The reason I ask this question is that, on the 24th November my right hon. Friend's predecessor, the present British Ambassador to America, in response to a question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. Adamson), gave this answer: representatives who for very good reasons were not here this afternoon, and would obviously desire to speak on a question of this kind.
There are plenty of us here now.
At any rate, there were no miners' representatives here at Question time.
Oh, yes, there were, but they did not get a chance.
At any rate, there was not the opportunity to discuss the matter, and there will not be this week, unless we get the Board of Trade Vote put down this week. The question I want to put to my right hon. Friend is this. Can he tell us, inside the ten minutes that remain, what are the figures on which he bases this new increase in the price of coal? There is the 6s. story; there is the 10s. story; and now there is the 14s. 2d. story. If he wants to contribute something towards quieting the industrial unrest in this country, he ought to give us some figures upon which that is based. He will agree at once that if this 14s. 2d. is put on, it means an increase in the cost of living. It means agitation in favour of increased wages; it means the beginning of the circle of which we were hoping we had coming to an end. I would invite the right hon. Gentleman to tell us on what basis he thinks it is necessary to increase the price of domestic coal by 14s. 2d. a ton.
I very readily recognise the right of the House to all the available information upon a subject of so much importance as the price of coal supplied to the citizens and the Kingdom, but I think the hon. Member will, at the same time, not fail to appreciate the difficulty of giving announcements beforehand as to the precise change which is going to be made. There are considerations connected with the operations of retailers which make it essential that you should, up to the point at which you are prepared to make the announcement to the House, keep in the dark the knowledge of the precise announcement you are going to make. It is always open to the retailer to take advantage of such circumstances if he knows what is going to happen. [HON. MEMBERS "He knew it!"] He did not know as much as we did, and he did not have as much knowledge as he might have had if the course suggested by the hon. Member had been followed by the Government. The coal situation is one that has been the cause of the very greatest possible anxiety to the Government, and we have arrived at the conclusion at which we have arrived only after long and anxious deliberation. The situation is most anomalous. All the other great trades are conducting their operations free from control, and obtaining for their products the world's price.
Agriculture.
Agriculture is in a different position, in the respect that the maximum price fixed for its products was supposed to be rather an inducements for greater production than a curtailment of their interests, whereas coal has been held back from the increases which the value of the commodity would have naturally fetched. The coal industry has been fettered in three respects. In the first place, the export of coal has been rigidly regulated; in the second place, the price at which it might be sold in the home market has been prescribed by the Government; and in the third place, a different price has in recent times been charged to the domestic consumer from that which has been charged to the industrial consumer. When the last President of the Board of Trade dealt with the matter, he referred to a particular concession given in exceptional times, and those exceptional times had special reference to the coming winter. He was then speaking in November, the concession was given on 1st December, and it was strictly confined to the prospect of the winter, and the time has now arrived at which it is possible to review the price at which the domestic consumer is getting his coal.
First of all, with regard to the question of the regulation of export, we do not propose at all to interfere with that regulation. It is perfectly plain that if you were to allow further export of coal at the present time, more would be taken from this country than the country could afford to lose. At the present time there is a shortage of coal for home consumption, and, so far from being in a position in which we can allow a greater amount of export, we are rather faced with a possibility of having to curtail it still further. In the second place, in regard to the prices which have been charged to the home consumer, I should like to make this point plain to the House. The home consumer is getting to-day and has been for many months getting his coal at an absolutely artificial price, and at a cost which is very considerably below the world market price. That is an anomaly in respect to coal which does not exist in regard to any other great industry at the present time. The industrial consumer has been getting it till now at a price which is 1s. 4d. per ton less than it costs the Government. The cost to the Government for a ton of coal supplied to our factories and workshops in this kingdom has been 30s. 5d., and included in the 30s. 5d. is the amount of profit to which the coalowner is entitled as the standard profit fixed upon a pre-War basis with which everybody is familiar. On the other hand, the receipts for the coal are 29s. 1d. Therefore, the industrial consumer has been supplied with coal at a price which is 1s. 4d. less than its actual cost to the State. In the case of the domestic consumer, on the other hand, its loss has been greatly intensified by reason of the concession which was made in December last of 10s. in the price. That was done so that the domestic consumer on facing the winter would not have an increase in the cost of living to anticipate. We are now luckily at a time when the summer is beginning and the amount of domestic coal consumed is much less than in the hard months of the winter, and if ever we are to make the change of getting the coal industry back to something like its normal basis the present is the proper time in which to make it. We have come to the conclusion that it is no longer a wise policy to subsidise either the industrial consumer or the domestic consumer of coal in this country. All subsidies are in the nature of impediments to trade and to the advancement and development of industry. I am sure I shall get the agreement of my hon. Friends opposite on that proposition. We accordingly think that we ought to get rid of this artificial subsidy. There is no reason in connection with our industries why any industrial consumer should get his coal cheaper than the cost price to-day. Most of our greatest industries, which are the largest consumers of coal, are making very substantial profits, and, really, I think it would be wrong to go on subsidising those industries at the expense of the coal industry. You may say, "What about the domestic consumer?" I grant you at once that the rise in price which is going to be imposed seems like a heavy burden, but, at the same time, unless you put the domestic consumer and the industrial consumer on the same basis, you can never get rid of a system of internal control and distribution, which at the present time, according to the best of my judgment, is one of the things which is most inimical to the advancement of the coal trade and to its development for the future. Accordingly, having taken all those matters into consideration, we have come to the conclusion that the present is the right time to deal with this matter on a broad basis and, looking to the future and having those things clearly in view, we are convinced that it is in the interests of the coal industry, and also in the interests of every citizen in this country, that the course we are now taking should be immediately adopted.
It being Half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at half after Eleven o'clock.