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Commons Chamber

Volume 129: debated on Monday 17 May 1920

House of Commons

Monday, May 17, 1920

Private Business

Great Eastern Railway Bill,

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Blackpool Improvement Bill (King's Consent signified),

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Nottingham Corporation Bill,

Pontypridd Urban District Council Bill, Read the Third time, and passed.

Wallasey Corporation Bill (King's Consent signified),

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Maidenhead Gas Bill [ Lords ],

Rhondda Urban District Council Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Risca Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],

As amended, considered; a Clause added; Amendments made; Bill to be read the Third time.

Sutton Coldfield Corporation Bill,

Upper Mersey Navigation Bill,

Wrexham District Tramways Bill,

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

City of London (Various Powers) Bill [ Lords ],

Corporation of London (Rating of Reclaimed Lands) Bill [ Lords ],

St. Annes-on-the-Sea Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],

Tees Conservancy Bill [ Lords ],

Read a Second time, and committed.

Wandsworth, Wimbledon, and Epsom District Gas Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till to-morrow.

Land Drainage (Ouse) Provisional Order Bill,

Consideration, as amended, deferred till to-morrow.

Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,

Motherwell and Wishaw Burghs (Amalgamation and Extension) Order Confirmation Bill,

Read a Second time; and ordered to be considered To-morrow.

PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL,

"to confirm certain Pilotage Orders made by the Board of Trade under The Pilotage Act, 1913, relating to the Pilotage Districts of Liverpool and Manchester," presented by Mr. BRIDGEMAN; read the First Time, referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 116.]

PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No 2) BILL,

"to confirm certain Pilotage Orders made by the Board of Trade under The Pilotage Act, 1913, relating to the Pilotage Districts of Cork, Drogheda, Dundalk, Galway, and Newry and Carlingford," presented by Mr. BRIDGEMAN; read the First time, referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 117.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Power Alcohol

asked the President of the Board of Trade if it is the policy of the Government to encourage the use of alternative fuel for internal combustion engines; if so, whether they can yet state what steps they have taken, or are taking, in reference to power alcohol; whether such a spirit can yet be produced capable of use in such an engine; and, if so, whether the Excise and other Regulations will permit of its use?

His Majesty's Government are anxious to do what they can to encourage the use of alternative fuels for internal combustion engines, and my Noble Friend will be aware that progress is being made in connection with the inquiry by the Fuel Research Board into the production of power alcohol in the British Empire. There is, I believe, no question that alcohol in suitable mixture is a satisfactory fuel for internal combustion engines. The Finance Bill now before the House contains a Clause providing for the payment of the same allowance in respect of spirits used for making power methylated spirits, as is now made in respect of spirits used for making industrial methylated spirits; the Clause also gives power to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise to prescribe the denaturants to be used in the case of power methylated spirits.

Can the right hon. Gentleman make quite clear what exactly is meant in the Finance Bill by methylated spirit?

I am afraid the hon. Member must ask those who have to do the analysis to deal with that question.

Morphia

asked the President of the Board of Trade which countries British made morphia was exported during the year 1919; the amount and value of the morphia so exported to each country; what precautions are taken to secure the restriction of such morphia to medical or legitimate purposes; how many factories for morphia there are in Great Britain; and whether they are controlled and supervised in accordance with the provisions of the International Opium Convention of 1912.

I am sending the hon. Member a statement of the recorded exports of morphia which will be printed in the Official Report, but I regret that those figures do not include exports through the post, particulars of which are not available. Licenses are granted by the Board of Trade on the basis of the estimated legitimate requirements of the country of destination, and an arrangement is already in force in regard to certain destinations—and will, I hope, be extended to others—under which an application for a licence must be accompanied by a certificate from the appropriate Government authority in the country of destination that the drug is required exclusively for legitimate medicinal or scientific purposes, and will not be re-exported. I am aware of only three factories in Great Britain producing morphia. When the Dangerous Drugs Bill at present before the House is passed into law, control over such factories will be exercised in accordance with the provisions of the Opium Convention.

Does the Government intend or endeavour to control the disposal of morphia all over the world?

There was a reference to controlling the amount of supplies from British factories to other parts of the world.

Coal Production

Kent Coalfield

asked how many separate pits are now working in the Kent coalfield area; how many pits are soon expected to be working; and what is the weekly average output of coal from this district at the present time?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the answer which I gave on 3rd May to my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth.

Output and Exports

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many tons of coal were mined in the United Kingdom during the months of April and June, 1913; how much coal was mined during the month of April, 1920, and how much does he estimate will be mined during the month of June, 1920; how much coal was exported from the Humber ports during April and June, 1913, and how much from the United Kingdom; how much coal was exported from the Humber ports during April, 1920, and how much from the United Kingdom; and what does he estimate will be the respective figures for June, 1920?

I will have the information asked for, as far as it is available, published in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The following is the information referred to:

—

1913.

1920.

April.

June.

April.

Coal raised.

United Kingdom.

Particulars are not recorded.

Tons.

18,923,000

Coal exported.

Humber United Ports Kingdom.

Tons.

Tons.

Tons.

711,427

724,460

4,111

6,350,869

6,006,410

1,995,895

At the present rate of production the output of coal during June, 1920, may reach 20 million tons, but I cannot say at present whether it will be possible by that time to raise the existing embargo on exports from the Humber ports.

Does the hon. Gentleman see any likelihood of an increase in export coal from the Humber ports during the coming summer, and is he aware of the very great distress—

The and gallant Member is raising new matter in his supplmentary question.

Supplies, London

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is awere that for a considerable number of months past London coal consumers have been supplied with a large amount of slate and slack mixed with the coal which has been sent to them by London merchants; whether he is aware that the public are compelled to pay the same price for the slate and slack as for the coal; and whether he will at once take steps to issue an order that the coal is to be thoroughly selected and screened before delivery, An order that consumers may pay only for coal that they are able to burn?

I am aware that part of the supplies of coal to London have not been of the best quality during recent months, but this has been due to a general shortage of best quality coal. The attention of the various District Coal and Coke Supplies Committees has already been drawn to this matter, and all collieries instructed that every endeavour must be made to improve the quality of the coal produced.

If a man sells margarine as butter is he not summoned; and does the hon. Member not think that steps should be taken to protect people who have to pay high price for coal and who are getting slate and slack which they cannot use? Will the Government take steps to mitigate that?

It is a very serious question, and we are doing what we can to see if we can deal with it.

Are steps being taken at the collieries to see that slack is not mixed with the coal?

Increased Prices

asked the effect of the increase in the price of coal upon the cost of silk, cotton, and woollen goods, tinplates, glass, and paper?

My hon. and gallant Friend will realise that it is impossible to arrive at any precise figures, but I am having the question examined and will communicate with him later.

asked what will be the effect on the wages of the railwaymen of the increase in the price of coal?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The wages of railwaymen in the Conciliation Grades are reviewed periodically in accordance with the provisions of the recent agreement under which the wages of these men vary by one shilling for every five points in the cost of living as shown by the figures published in the "Labour Gazette."

Can the hon. Gentleman give an answer to the question which I have put down?

That will appear when the figure of the cost of living appears in the "Labour Gazette." I cannot anticipate that.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many points increase in the cost of living will be produced by this increase in the price of coal?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the increase in the price of coal will affect passenger and goods rates on the railways?

I have been asked to answer this question. The increase in the price of coal involves a considerable addition to the working cost of the railways, and this additional expenditure will have to be taken into account in the systematic revision of all railway charges.

Supplies, Holyhead

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will state the names and occupations of the persons who form the Coal Control Committee at Wrexham, and whether he is aware, that, in spite of repeated applications to that committee for coal for Holyhead, no steps were taken by it to alleviate the sufferings of the poor people in that town who for over three weeks have been entirely without, firing?

The District Coal and Coke Supplies Committee at Wrexham consists of 13 members and a secretary, all the former except one being connected with the collieries in the North Wales area. I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a list of their names. The question of the shortage of supplies of house coal to Holyhead has been receiving the close attention of the Coal Mines Department. Since the 7th May the Supplies Committee at Wrexham have placed orders for a considerable quantity of emergency coal for Holyhead and Anglesey.

Railway Rates Rebate, Barrow

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, after the introduction of the Coal Controller's scheme in 1917, a railway rates rebate was granted to firms in the Barrow district in consideration of their being obliged to purchase coal from collieries other than those from which it was obtained prior to the introduction of the scheme; whether, although this rebate has now been withdrawn, the restrictions which prevent the supply of local coal have not been removed; and if, under these circumstances, he will consider either the restoration of the rebate or the withdrawal of the restrictions complained of?

The rebate to which the hon. Member refers was granted by the North Eastern Railway Company purely as a War Emergency measure, and has recently been withdrawn. I am informed that there is no longer any justification for continuing the allowance in question. I regret that no variation in the source of supply to the Barrow District can be authorised at present, but the question will be reconsidered at the earliest possible opportunity.

Bunker Supplies, Scotland

( be Private Notice ) asked the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Scottish coalowners have threatened to raise by 4s. 2d. per ton the price of bunker coal supplied to fishing vessels; whether they are within their rights in making this increase, and will he say what measures he is taking or has power to take to prevent this action?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. An arrangement was made last December under which bunker coal for fishing trawlers is chargeable by collieries at fixed prices, which correspond with the prices for industrial coal. In the circum- stances it is not practicable to exempt fishing trawlers from the scope of the recent increase of 4s. 2d. per ton.

Russia

Trade Relations

asked the President of the Board of Trade why export licences to European Russia are not being granted, in view of the Prime Minister's declarations on this subject after the last conference at San Remo; and whether this embargo is extended to cover drugs, medicines, anesthetics, surgical instruments, and other hospital and Red Cross supplies?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can now make his promised statement on the subject of trade with Russia?

I hope to make a definite announcement on the subject in the course of a few days.

Does the right hon. gentleman persist in the statement that there is no blockade of Russia?

Inquiry Commission

asked the Prime Minister whether the British members of the Council of the League of Nations will be instructed to propose the sending of a Commission of Inquiry to Russia on the terms suggested by the Russian Government?

The question of the despatch of a Commission of Inquiry to Soviet Russia is being discussed by the Council of the League of Nations which is at present sitting in Rome.

Despatches

asked the Prime Minister whether he will circulate among Members, or cause to be published, all Foreign Office and War Office despatches to Russia and instructions to our military missions since the Bolshevik revolution?

The Government are not prepared to accept the hon. Member's suggestion.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the publication of these despatches when peace is finally made with Russia?

They are despatches which will no doubt be of great historical interest, but I cannot see why Russia should be put on a different footing from other powers.

Trade and Commerce

Imports (Restrictions)

asked the President of the Board of Trade (1) in what directions danger from unrestricted imports of commodities is anticipated during the next few months so as to render necessary the revival of the system of prohibition and licences;

(2) whether the provisions of Clause 4 of the Indemnity Bill were considered by the Board prior to the introduction of the Bill; and, if so, for what reason the Board desire to resume the practice of restrictions and licences in respect of our import trade?

I cannot anticipate the statement as to the general policy of His Majesty's Government, which I hope to make at an early date. As regards Clause 4 of the Indemnity Bill, this was considered by the Board of Trade prior to the introduction of the Bill, but I would point out that it only proposes to validate any proclamation or Order in Council issued or purporting to be issued under Section 43 of the Customs Consolidation Act, 1876, during the War; that the final words of the Clause are "nothing in this Section should be construed as rendering valid the continuance in operation after the termination of the War of any such proclamation or order in council "; and that the Attorney-General in the course of the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill made a statement in which he indicated that indemnity would be limited to acts done under the Orders and Proclamations which were made before the introduction of the Bill.

Does that give not merely absolution for the past, but carte blanehe for the next few months?

British Worsted (Prices)

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the average price for best quality, British made, worsted suits is now approximately, and allowing for exchange, in New York ÂŁ60, in Paris 50 guineas, in Berlin ÂŁ200, and in Montreal ÂŁ35; and how these prices compare with those charged for similar suits to British consumers in this country?

The price for best quality worsted suits made by high-class tailors in this country is approximately 16 to 18 guineas, though prices vary to some extent according to the locality. I have no information bearing out the statement in the question as to prices abroad, but I understand that the prices of British made suits are very considerably higher in foreign markets than in this country.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make overtures to these people to introduce a scheme under the Profiteering Act?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a Member of this House is supplying suits at much lower prices?

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether London tailors are now being offered 19-ounce fancy worsted suitings of good quality at from 40s. to 45s. per yard; whether this means that next winter's suits will cost from 20 to 25 guineas, as compared with the pre-War charge of from five to eight guineas; and will he explain the reasons for this increase?

I understand that fancy worsted suitings of best quality are being offered to London tailors at the price mentioned by my hon. Friend. The prices charged for suits made therefrom depend, to some extent, upon the locality and class of tailor employed, but I am advised that a suit made of the material mentioned should not cost more than 20 guineas next winter. The increased price is due to a number of factors, including the increase in the price of all merino wool and of other materials, the rise in wages and reduction in the hours of work, and the much increased cost of repairs and renewals of plant. I may point out, however, that the figures quoted refer to the highest quality of tailoring and the highest quality of suitings, and that suits of good and sound quality can be obtained at much lower prices.

Can the right hon. Gentleman state what is the price from the manufacturer to the warehousekeeper, the warehousekeeper to the seller, and the seller to the consumer?

Poland

Munitions

asked whether an export licence was issued for the munitions of war which Messrs. Walford, of the Walford Line, Limited, had loaded aboard their ship, the "Jolly George," recently in the London Docks?

Was this going on Government account or on private account?

Are we to understand that these things were being exported through the British Polish mission?

Nothing I have said gives reason for that understanding. There is lower down on the Paper a question to the Leader of the House dealing with a similar matter, and I shall leave it to be answered by the appropriate authority.

Did not my right hon. Friend use the words "on account of the Polish military mission"? What exactly does he mean by that? Is it the British military mission in Poland or is it the military mission of Poland in England?

I am afraid that I have not got details of the transaction before me. If my right hon. Friend will put down a question, I should be glad to answer it.

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he can yet give any explanation respecting the origin of the contract for consignment of war munitions for Polish aggression in territory outside the limits prescribed to that country last year at Paris; and if he can give an assurance that no help, financial or otherwise, will issue from this country in the future for any such aggression?

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions if he will state the amounts of munitions of war, e.g, guns, rifles, revolvers, shells, tanks, aeroplanes, poison gas, bombs, etc., transferred to Poland since the Armistice?

In October of last year, when it was feared that the Russian Border States would be attacked by the Soviet Government, a request was addressed by the Polish Government for assistance in their military equipment. In consequence of our commitments elsewhere, the British Government were unable to give any financial assistance, but they offered to supply a certain quantity of surplus stores on condition that the cost of moving them, as well as the arrangements for transport, should be undertaken by the Polish Government. This offer was accepted. In consequence of that gift the material in question became the property of the Polish Government, and part of it is now being shipped by that Government. Beyond this no assistance has been, or is being given, to the Polish Government.

Does not my right hon. Friend think the position is altogether different now from what it was last year, having regard to the declaration of the Prime Minister made much more recently than last October?

Yes, but as a matter of fact the bargain was made, the material was actually given to the Polish Government, it is their property, and to have gone back on it would have been to break a bargain. In any event, I think this whole subject is one which can better be dealt with in debate than by question and answer, and I understand that it will be raised on Thursday. next.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give an answer to the last part of the question, that apart from these contracts, at all events, no assistance, financial or otherwise, will be given?

I have answered that. My answer was that, beyond what I have described, no assistance has been or is being given to the Polish Government.

May I ask whether at the time the bargain was made any condition was placed on the Polish Government as to the use they were to make of this material?

In any consideration of this matter, will the Cabinet remember that the Poles have been our most faithful Allies all through these last few years?

Polish Army (Limitation)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can state if, in agreeing to recognise the independence of Poland, the Allies placed any limitation on the strength or equipment of a Polish Army?

May I ask why they should go out of their way to assist the extension of this Army in its equipment and strength?

As regards the general question, that was debated in this House, and it was recognised you could not have one law for small States and another for the big States, and that you could not lay down a limitation of armaments for one without the other.

Is Poland not bound by the terms of the Covenant of the League of Nations to restrict her Army within the limits necessary for National safety?

Has the League of Nations laid down any restriction for any nation whatever

Typhus

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the League of Nations Council has been approached by the Polish Government in regard to international action to prevent the spread of typhus; whether Poland is itself ravaged by typhus; and whether the Polish attack on Russia is the international action recommended for the suppression of the typhus epidemic?

At the public meeting on 13th March of the Third Session of the Council of the League of Nations, it was decided, on the motion of the British member, to instruct the International Health Conference to consider what measures should or could be taken to prevent the spread of typhus in Poland and the neighbouring countries. The present situation in Poland as regards typhus is certainly serious, but in no sense can it be said that the country is ravaged. With regard to the third part of the question, the recent military advance of the Poles eastward does not modify the proposal before the League of Nations. On the contrary, the medical authorities interested are of opinion that to the extent that the advance secures better conditions of government in the Ukraine, it will increase the opportunities of controlling epidemics.

Do we understand from the reply that the Government is supplying arms to Poland in order to stamp out typhus in Russia?

Was the medicine carried by the "Jolly George" for the treatment of typhus?

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether there are as many as 250,000 cases of typhus in Poland, and whether it is five times greater than this time last year?

Wreck Obstruction, Start Bay

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will take into consideration the fact that the wreckage, masts, etc., of the "Traveller," which ran ashore some months ago off the village of Beesand, Start Bay, South Devon, are a serious obstruction to the net fishermen, thereby prevented from hauling their seines at this point; and whether he will bring about the removal of the same either by the owners (if still claiming to be proprietors) or by the Government's local representatives?

Under Section 531 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, a wreck can be removed by the general lighthouse authority only if in the opinion of the authority it is or is likely to become an obstruction or danger to navigation or to lifeboats engaged in the lifeboat service. Mere is thus no power to remove this wreck on the ground that it is an obstruction to fishing operations. I am making inquiries whether the wreck can be considered as a danger to navigation or to lifeboats, and I will let my hon. Friend know the result.

Are we to understand that this obstruction is to continue and that there is no power to get rid of it, in view of the fact that the fishermen themselves who were trying to deal with it have been summoned to court by the Receiver of Wrecks?

I have no power to order its removal, but there may he other means of dealing with it.

Can the right hon. Gentleman get in touch with the Receiver of Wrecks on the subject, or is he the responsible authority?

Carbonate of Potash

asked the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been drawn to the conditions prevailing in the glass making industry of the Midlands through the serious shortage of supplies of carbonate of potash imported from abroad and on which the industry almost entirely depended prior to the War; whether he is aware that manufacturers of the finer qualities of glassware are unable to secure satisfactory results from the use of such material as is obtainable from makers in this country; whether he realises that, owing to this scarcity, British glassmakers are finding it increasingly difficult to recover their pre-War eminence in both home and international markets, where foreign manufacturers are rapidly occupying that position through being able to secure larger supplies of essential carbonate of potash from Germany as compared with British manufacturers; and can he see his way to order a speedy inquiry into the matter with the view of preventing damage and loss to this key industry?

:I am aware of the position in respect of the supplies of carbonate of potash for the glassmaking industry, and in my opinion no inquiry at this moment would add to our information. As regards supplies from Germany, I would point out that there are no restrictions on the importation from that country and that British manufacturers are at no disadvantage as compared with foreign manufacturers in this respect.

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he can state the approximate quantities of carbonate of potash exported from Germany to Belgium, France, the United States of America, and Great Britain since the date of the Armistice; and whether he can state the approximate quantity of natural deposits of potash in Germany from which the carbonates are derived, and also the extent to which the process of this conversion has increased during the past 18 months in that country?

I regret that I have no official statistics which show the exports of carbonate of potash from Germany to Belgium, France, or the United States. The quantity imported from Germany into the United Kingdom since 11th November, 1918, amounts to 20½ tons. I am not aware of any approximate esti- mate of the extent of the natural deposits of potash in Germany, but they are unquestionably very great, running into many millions of tons. I have no definite information as to the extent of the production of carbonate of potash since the Armistice, but I understand that it has been very much less than the normal production.

asked the Prime Minister whether preferential treatment has been accorded any of Great Britain's Allies on the continents of Europe or America, as against the United Kingdom itself, in regard to supplies, large or small, of carbonate of potash any of them shall be allowed to procure from Germany under peace treaty, indemnity, or fiscal arrangement; and, if not, can he say whether Germany is permitted without restriction to conclude contracts with any of the Allied Governments for supplying this essential article of glass manufacture to any extent it chooses, even to the deprivation of supplies to the United Kingdom either partially or altogether?

I am not aware that Germany has discriminated in this matter against the United Kingdom. By Article 267 of the Treaty of Peace, Germany is required to extend to all the Allied and Associated States every favour, immunity, or privilege in regard to exportation which she may grant to any foreign country.

School Children (Improved Conditions)

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will cause to be collated and issued at the earliest possible moment for the information of the public the evidence upon which he bases his statement that the children in public schools are better fed and better clothed than in the years before the War; that there are fewer free meals needed for badly nourished children than ever before; and that in these respects, as in that of unemployment, a marked improvement has taken place in the general condition of the wage-earning community?

As regards the feeding of school children, the most recent Report of the Chief Medical Officer of the Board of Education, published in 1919, gives, on page 175, a Table which shows that for the year 1918–19 the number of school children fed by Local Education Authorities under the provisions of the Education (Provision of Meals) Act, 1906, was 52,490, as compared with 156,531 in 1913–14, and 358,306 in 1912–13.

As regards improvement in the clothing of school children, there is no published information for the country as a whole, but I would refer to the statement made by the School Medical Officer for London, on page 13 of the Report to which I have referred, in which he says that in 1918 the number of children found insufficiently clad was less than half the number discovered in 1913. I understand that the general impression gained by the inspectors of the Board of Education has been that a similar improvement was to be found in other parts of the country.

As to unemployment, there is less at the present time than in an average pre-War year. The percentages of trade union members reported as unemployed in January, February, and March, 1920, were 2·9 per cent., 1·6 per cent., and 11 per cent. respectively. In 1919 the mean annual trade union percentage of unemployed was 2·4 per cent., whilst during the last 40 years (excluding the War period) the mean annual percentage has only once fallen as low as 2 per cent., and on only four other occasions was it lower than 2·5 per cent.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say when we can have information for later years?

I have given the latest figures with regard to unemployment. With regard to the feeding of school children I have not the exact figures, but I am informed that what the school inspectors have to say on the subject bears out what is said in the Report of 1918.

Have the Board of Trade any scheme to absorb even the 2 per cent. Surely the 220,000 ex-service men can have some steps taken to absorb them, even if it means conflicting with private enterprise?

Peace Treaties

Enemy Dests

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether any and, if so, what action has been taken since the 24th April last to call upon the German Government immediately to comply with the provisions of the Peace Treaty relating to the setting up of a Clearance House for the collection and settlement of enemy debts?

Notification of the establishment of the German Clearing Office has been received and the first batch of British claims, to the number of 34,806, was despatched by the British Clearing Office to Berlin on the 12th instant.

War Criminals (Trial)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now make any statement with regard to the proceedings or decisions of the San Remo Conference with regard to the trial of the ex-Kaiser and other War criminals and those German officers now in the hands of the Allies and awaiting trial; whether the number of the latter can in each case be given; whether the Leipzig Court has as yet held any sittings; if not, when will it commence its proceedings, and if any have been commenced; what are the results to date; and if and when the Court begins its proceedings, will they be conducted in public and the proceedings fully reported in all Allied countries?

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the statement appearing in the Press to the effect that the Allies have now presented to Germany an agreed list of those persons charged with breaches of the laws of war; whether he can state when and where the said persons will be brought to trial; what arrangements have been made for the attendance of English witnesses on such trials and for the payment of their expenses; and what precautions have been taken to ensure that upon publication of the list those persons named in it will not flee the country before trial?

As regards the ex-Emperor, I can add nothing to the statement made in the House on 19th April. In accordance with the policy outlined in their Note of 13th February, the Allied Governments on 7th May forwarded to the German Government a first instalment of the list of war criminals containing 45 names. The list was compiled by the mixed Inter-Allied Commission on which the Lord Chancellor is the British representative. The Allied Governments at the same time requested that the trial of these persons by the Leipzig Court should begin without delay.

They also pointed out to the German Government that, although there would be no compulsion upon Allied witnesses to attend the Court, should they do so 'it would be necessary for the German Government to give adequate guarantees for their protection and to allow Allied Delegates to be present at all sittings of the Court, whether Allied witnesses were present or not. The Allied Governments declared their readiness to furnish all evidence which might be demanded by the Leipzig Court. I need hardly add that in their Note of 7th May, the Allied Governments reserved all their rights under Articles 228 and 229 of the Treaty of Versailles, should the procedure of the Leipzig Court not prove satisfactory.

Is any date actually fixed for the proceedings of the Leipzig Court, and have any discussions taken place with regard to this at Lympne during the past few days?

With regard to the last question, I do not know whether it was discussed or not. This is not the time for the first part of the question to take effect, as the list was sent in only recently.

Have the Government given up all idea of bringing the ex-Kaiser to trial, and if that is so, cannot we stop all these useless questions?

asked the Prime Minister whether the Turkish Peace Treaty contains any demand for the trial of Turkish war criminals, in particular of those Turks who ordered and carried out the Armenian massacres or were responsible for the ill-treatment of British or Allied prisoners?

I would refer the hon. Member to Part VII. Penalties, in the official summary of the Treaty of Peace with Turkey, which was published in the Press on 12th May.

Palestine, Holy Places

asked the Prime Minister whether the special Commission to be appointed in Palestine by the Council of the League of Nations under the terms of the Turkish Peace Treaty to deal with holy places and religious questions will be confined to nationals of the mandatory Powers; and what will be the precise composition and functions of this commission?

The special Commission referred to by the hon. and gallant Member is to be appointed by the mandatory; the mandate itself has not yet been issued, nor its terms determined, and it is therefore premature to consider the composition of the Commission.

Certainly not until the observations of the French Government on the Treaty have been made.

Turkey

asked the Prime Minister when the House will have an opportunity of discussing the Treaty of Peace with Turkey?

asked when an opportunity will be given for discussion of the Turkish Treaty?

The Turkish Government, as the House is aware, have been given a month to consider the terms of peace presented to them, and it would not, I think, be right to have a discussion until the Treaty has been signed; but an opportunity for its discussion in this House will be given before it has been ratified.

Food Supplies

Sugar

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the decision of the Government that household and industrial coal shall now be sold at the same price, he will take steps in the national interest so that the same principle should be applied to the price of sugar, so that sugar for industrial purposes shall be fixed at the same price as that used for household purposes?

I have been asked to reply. The answer is in the negative. The retail price of sugar for domestic consumption has to-day been advanced to Is. 2d. per lb., an advance of 4d. per lb. on the previous price, and the. Government are not prepared further to raise the price at the present time.

Condensed Milk

asked the President of the Board of Trade what quantity of condensed milk was imported during the first four months of this year direct from the country of origin; what quantity was Imparted indirectly through other countries to which it had been shipped and where there was no consumption; and what proportion of the said imports can be said to be of the standard composition recognised in this country before the Government control as defined by the Government chemist in his annual report on condensed milk, namely, milk reduced to 2½ to 3 times its original bulk by the evaporation of water?

As the answer involves a statistical table, I will, with the permission of the House, have a statement published in the OFFICIAL REPORT when the necessary figures have been prepared.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether the inquiry as to the alleged glut of sweetened condensed milk in this country has been completed; if so, with what result; whether recently an application for licence to ship 100 cases of sweetened condensed full-cream milk to a British colony, which is dependent upon imported condensed milk for its milk requirements, has been made and has been refused on the grounds of scarcity, and that a licence for only 20 cases has been granted?

I have been asked to reply. The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and to the second part in the affirm ative. Licences have in several cases been issued recently for a smaller quantity than that applied for owing to the monthly ration allowed for export being inadequate to meet the quantity for which applications have been received. The export ration has, however, now been increased, so that it is possible to issue licences in the case of export to British Colonies for the full quantity applied for.

Milk

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture what progress has been made, since the proper restrictions obtaining during the War had been removed, in raising the hygienic standard of milk and milk products?

As a result of the control exercised during the War, valuable experience has been gained in many directions in the improvement of the hygienic standard of milk. The results of this experience have been used in the framing of the Milk and Dairies Bill introduced last week.

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture what progress is being made in respect to the elimination of deleterious vitreous gases in the towns adjacent to farmsteads, which affect the fodder of milch cows and affect as a result the purity of milk?

I have been asked to reply to this question. A Departmental Committee has been appointed to consider and advise what steps are desirable and practicable to diminish the evils arising from pollution of the atmosphere by smoke and other noxious vapours.

Insurance (Lord Parmoor's Committee)

asked the Prime Minister what steps are to be taken to protect insurance policy holders and to provide that the recommendations of Lord Parmoor's Committee are carried into effect?

I have been asked to reply. As the hon. and gallant Member is probably aware, the Committee of which Lord Parmoor was Chairman recommended that in the future the control of all industrial assurance business, whether conducted by companies or societies, should be vested in the Chief Registrar of Friendly Societies. I have accordingly referred the matter to the Treasury.

Will any action be taken with regard to the very large number of policies of soldiers and sailors which lapsed during the War?

Churches, City of London

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government can and will take such action as may be practicable to save from threatened destruction a large number of churches, many or most of which are highly valued by those who frequent the City of London?

Can my right hon. Friend refer me to any authority which can and will act in the matter?

Territorial Army

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the interruption of factory processes and the consequent loss of output from the absence of territorials at annual training are avoided by firms who employ no territorials the Government will consider the desirability of partially compensating those who do employ territorials by granting them a rebate of income tax of £5 for each employee who attends training for the full period on condition that the firm pays each such employé the difference between his Army pay and his average wage, if the former is the lower, and allows him a week's holiday in addition to leave of absence for the full period of training?

Such a provision as my hon. and gallant Friend suggests would be quite inconsistent with the basic principles of the Income Tax code, and I cannot see my way to adopt it.

Friendly Societies Registry (Hotel Petrograd)

asked the Prime Minister why it was necessary to acquire the lease of a hotel, such as the Hotel Petrograd, in the heart of a most expensive area in the West End, on a 31 years' lease, for rehousing the Registry of Friendly Societies; where was the Registry accommodated prior to the War; what is the present number of the staff and number of rooms; whether any alternative suggestion was considered; who are the lessors; who is the ground landlord; what are the rates and taxes; what will be the total payment per annum; has the arrangement been submitted to Parliament; and under what Vote will it be found?

I must apologise to the House for the length of my reply. [HON. MEMBERS: "Circulate it."]

It appears to be the desire of the House that the reply should be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is it not the growing habit of Ministers to say that their answers are long and should be circulated, being adopted as a very easy way out of giving an inconvenient answer to a difficult question?

I think it is the desire of the House that the answer should be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT. There are many more questions on the Paper yet to be asked. [HON. MEMSERS: "No," and "Agreed."]

May I suggest that, with the leave of Mr. Deputy-Speaker, my right hon. Friend read the answer at the end of Questions, when it would not interfere with the answers to other questions?

( reading ): The lease of the hotel was, after consideration of all possible alternatives acquired by my Department to house the Registry of Friendly Societies because, as the Noble Lord is no doubt aware, great pressure was brought to bear by the trustees of the British Museum and by Members of this House, for the return of the galleries of the British Museum which were occupied by the Registry during the War. It was impossible to remove the Registry to its former offices in Cromwell House, Westminster, as these offices are occupied by the large headquarters staff of the Ministry of Pensions. The hotel, containing 109 rooms, is held on lease from the Duke of Westminster, and my Department has taken an assignment of the lease, the annual payment in respect of which may be put at £7,450, inclusive of the ground rent of £3,850, but exclusive of rates and taxes which are not payable by the Government. The usual ex gratin contribution in lieu of rates has, I understand, not yet been determined. The purchase money, which I was advised was quite reasonable, was defrayed out of the general provision in the Vote for Public Buildings, 1919–20, Class I., Vote 10.

I should like to explain to the Noble Lord that the registry, the staff of which numbers 167, performs most important functions in connection with the Building and Friendly Societies Acts, trades unions, Workmen's Compensation, etc., and is in constant and intimate communication with the friendly societies and the legal profession generally. The Registrar's duties include the holding of Courts dealing with matters arising under the Building and Friendly Societies Acts, and robing and waiting rooms with the usual offices have to be provided in addition to the accommodation for the staff of the Registry. Considerable space is also required for a large number of records which are being continually consulted. For these reasons it will be seen that premises centrally situated somewhere in London are essential to the Registry.

May I ask why it was necessary to choose the most expensive area in the West End for housing the Registry of Friendly Societies?

Earl's Court is much too inaccessible for an office which has to hold courts at which members of the legal profession have to be represented and where constant consultations of members of the Friendly Societies from all over the. country have to take place. There are no premises at Earl's Court in the least bit suitable. With regard to the question of the Noble Lord, we can only acquire such premises as exist, and as these came into the market and no others could be acquired we had to take them.

With regard to the legal profession, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that county courts and police courts exist all over London and that members of the legal profession find no difficulty in attending them?

Vatican (British Mission)

asked the Prime Minister what services the British Mission to the Vatican rendered during the War; what services it is now rendering; and whether he can state when it will be withdrawn.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Lincoln on 15th April, to which I have nothing to add.

The answer to which the right hon. Gentleman refers was to a quite different question?

Teachers' Pensions

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the distress existing amongst pensioned members of the teaching profession, many of whom are existing on pensions of from ÂŁ30 to. ÂŁ45 a year; whether he will bring in a, measure to make the new scale of pensions. for teachers retrospective; and whether, if this be not at present possible, this class of pensioner can participate in the concessions to pre-War pensioners recently announced by the Government

It is not intended to make the new scale of pensions for teachers retrospective beyond 1st April, 1919, but teachers who are now in receipt of pensions awarded on a pre-war basis will participate in the concessions referred to in my hon. Friends question.

Government Departments (Publicity Officers)

asked the Prime Minister whether any officers are employed on publicity duties in Government Departments, and, if so, how many; and what is the annual total of the salaries paid to these officers?

I cannot add anything to the answer which I gave on this subject to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Clackmannan and Eastern on the 26th April.

Agricultural Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether he can say that the Agricultural Bill will be introduced in this House and not in another place?

Ex-Service Men

Unemployment, Bristol

asked the Prime Minister if he is aware that dissatisfaction amongst ex-soldiers, owing to unemployment, has reached such a pitch in the city of Bristol that serious breaches of the peace have occurred; and if the Government intends to take any steps to inquire into the alleged grievances of these men?

I have been asked to take this question. I am fully aware of the seriousness of the position at Bristol, and the matter has been, and is, engaging my close personal attention. As I have already said, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary is paying a personal visit to Bristol this week in order to confer with the responsible authorities there.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether they mean to take really effective steps to absorb these men, and whether great dissatisfaction exists outside Bristol and even in the City of London?

There are, roughly, 218,000 ex-service men still unemployed, and I hope we may get the King's Roll very largely developed and that we may get assistance from every quarter, including my hon. Friend, I am sure, to get these men absorbed, as they wish, into civil occupations.

Would the right hon. Gentleman kindly put a stop once and for all to these irresponsible interjections, and state exactly how far the trade unions have stood in the way of employment?

May I ask whether it is not absolutely true that trade unions have in many cases stopped these people getting employment.

May I ask whether it is not the fact that very large numbers of these ex-service men would be immediately employed if the restrictions with regard to dilution—

Consular Service

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is still the policy of the Foreign Office that the claims of candidates who have served in His Majesty's military forces during the War shall receive every consideration; if so, whether an officer who qualified for consular service in July, 1914, enlisted as a private and was promoted an officer in the same year, entered the Intelligent Department in 1915 and is still serving therein, but was born before 2nd August, 1892, is debarred from competing again for the consular service by Foreign Office Rules for General Consular Service, dated November, 1909; and whether it is due to mistake or misunderstanding that an officer with so meritorious a record and deserving of special favour has been informed that no post is available for him in the consular service?

It is the policy of the Foreign Office that the claims of candidates who have served in His Majesty's Naval and Military forces during the War shall receive every consideration, and the conditions of the examination to be held in August next have been specially framed to this end. Before the War, the examination for the Consular Service was a competitive and not a merely qualifying one—that is to say, only a limited number of vacancies were available, and candidates whose names appeared on the list, but who were not sufficiently high on it to obtain one of the vacancies, had no claim to special treatment subsequently.

As regards the specific case referred to, there is every desire to give full consideration to officers with meritorious records, but on practical grounds it is undesirable to fix a higher age limit than 28 for new entrants into the lowest grade of the Service. Successful candidates undergo, on entry, a two years' course of special training as probationers and therefore may not attain the effective rank of Vice-Consul until they are 30. It would be in the interests neither of the candidates nor of the public service that Consular Officers should commence their career in this rank at a higher age.

How does the hon. Gentleman reconcile the result in this individual case with the desire of the Foreign Office to give favourable consideration to officers who have served in the War, because the gentleman I have in mind, and whom, I think, he has in mind also, would have got an appointment but for his action in fighting for his country in the War? Could he not have some consideration?

I have given very special personal consideration to this case, and I only regret that a more favourable answer is not possible.

Will the hon. Gentleman not look into this case once again, as it is an extremely hard case, and shows that the Foreign Office do not give preference to such cases?

Silver Coinage

44 and 45.

asked the Prime Minister (1) whether, in view of the fall in silver, whereby any loss on issuing coins of the old standard fineness has been removed, it is the intention of the Government to make the recent Coinage Bill operative and issue depreciated silver money;

(2) whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the Indian Government, under the advice of the recent Currency Commission, are maintaining the rupee at its old standard of fineness; and whether he could see his way to maintain silver coinage in the African and other Colonies affected by the Bill where silver is full legal tender at the old standard fineness, which has existed without interruption for over 100 years, so that British coins may preserve all over the world the same credit and confidence of those using them which they have hitherto enjoyed?

I certainly propose to proceed with the change in the fineness of British silver coin authorised by the Coinage Act. The considerations which apply in India are not relevant to other parts of the Empire. I do not share the apprehensions of my hon. Friend with regard to the use of the new silver in such parts of the Empire as use British silver coin, nor have I any reason to suppose that they are shared by the Governments of the Dominions and Colonies concerned.

May I ask why it is necessary to proceed with legislation the reasons for which have now disappeared, and as there will not be a gold currency in our Colonies for a considerable period will the Government consider the advisability of maintaining the intrinsic value of the coins which are legal tender and thus preserve their position as high as possible with the natives?

Amritsar (Hunter Report)

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will give an early day after the recess to discuss the Report of the Hunter Commission regarding the Amritsar incident; and whether, if a definite Motion is placed on the Paper, he will allow the discussion to take place on that Motion and not on a Motion for the Adjournment?

I am informed that these papers will be published before Parliament re-assembles. The subject can be raised on a Supply day on the salary of the Secretary of State.

Old Age Pensions

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that already deductions are being made from old age pensions in cases where, with the recent concessions to pre-War pensioners, the amount received, or due to be received, by the pensioned man or woman, exceeds the sum of ÂŁ26 10s. per year; will he say whether this was the intention of the Government when making the concession; and, if not, will he take such steps as may be necessary to prevent these deductions taking place?

I am not sure that I understand to what particular circumstances the hon. Member refers, but if he will furnish me with the names and addresses of the pensioners concerned I will have inquiries made.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware it is not necessary for me to refer him to individual cases but to the principle as to whether under present conditions in many cases the concession is taking away from the pension of the man or woman, on account of deductions, and is that fair, and is it the intention of the Government?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will be good enough to speak to me afterwards on the subject?

Washington Labour Conference Conyention

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he can yet name a day for the presentation of the Bills embodying the Conventions of the Washington Labour Conference?

A Bill has already been presented by the Home Secretary with a view to giving effect to three out of six Convntions, namely, those relating to the employment of young persons at night and the age of admission of children to industry. The Conventions relating to the 8-hours day and the employment of women before and after childbirth are still under consideration, and I am not able to make a definite statement at present. The remaining Convention with regard to unemployment will not, I understand, require legislation.

Transport

Railway Season Tickets

asked the Minister of Transport whether the holders of season tickets on railways when unable to produce these tickets are compelled to pay the full fare; whether they cannot recover the sums so paid on proving that they are season-ticket holders; and whether he will reconsider this regulation by which railway companies retain these amounts for journeys already paid for by contracts or, in the alternative, if he will bring this anomaly to the notice of the responsible railway authorities?

I would refer the hon. Member to the replies given to the hon. Member for Devonport (Sir C. Kinloch-Cooke) on the 28th April and the 3rd and 10th May.

Passengers Luggage (Delivery)

asked the Minister of Transport whether railway companies at the present time accept any responsibility for the delivery of passengers' luggage at the end of the journey; and whether, if this is not the case, he will consider the desirability of reverting to pre-War methods, more especially since the present arrangements for the carriage of parcels are very inefficient?

The railway companies are not able at present to accept responsibility for delivering passengers' luggage, but the question of re-introducing the "passengers' luggage in advance "and" carted luggage "arrangements is now being carefully considered. I am not, however, aware that the arrangements for the carriage of parcels are inefficient.

Advertisements on Bridges

asked the Minister of Transport if there are any legal powers possessed by his Department which can prevent the use of railway and other bridges crossing public thoroughfares being used for purposes of advertisement; and if any steps can be taken to compel owners to render them as little unsightly as possible?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative, and the second part of the question does not therefore arise.

Does the hon. Gentleman not think the public should have some voice in regard to the disfigurement of these structures?

Cheap Fares (Seasonal Workers)

asked the Minister of Transport whether special fares for holiday camps are being granted to boys brigades, boy scouts, and other similar organisations by Scottish railway companies; and whether he is prepared to continue the granting of cheap fares to the workers who travel to the fruit farms during the berry-picking season?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, I regret that, as the hon. Member has already been informed, the Minister of Transport is unable to agree that cheap fares should be granted to these seasonal workers in present circumstances.

May I ask the hon. Gentleman whether, in a previous reply given, it was not said that all these cheap travelling facilities were being withdrawn, and now it transpires that they are given to certain organisations for holiday purposes, and will the Minister of Transport not reconsider his decision and introduce cheap travelling facilities for seasonal workers, for the purpose of assisting in the production of the necessary food supplies?

I do not know to what answer the hon. Gentleman refers. The whole question of giving the greatest possible concessions is constantly being considered, not only in the matter of finance, but in the matter of engine-power and traffic facilities, which are also of great importance.

Is he not aware that special trains are going to the same district, conveying train-loads of golfers, and will he not reconsider the point of giving seasonal workers facilities to get them to this particular fruit-growing district?

County Highways (Scotland)

asked the Minister of Transport if he will state what is the policy of the Government in respect to the maintenance and improvement of county highways in Scotland; and if a statement will be issued before the end of this month, in view of the prospect of some road rates in Scotland having to be increased by 100 per cent. unless the anticipated grant be made to assist local authorities?

The policy of the Government with regard to the maintenance and improvement of county highways in the United Kingdom as a whole is largely governed by the provisions of the Finance Bill now before the House. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer estimated in his Budget speech that, if his proposals were adopted, a sum of ÂŁ6,650,000 would be available during the current financial year for allocation to works of road and bridge improvement. The distribution of this fund will be governed largely by the classification of the roads of the country which is now proceeding. Many highway authorities in Scotland, as in other parts of the United Kingdom, have in hand considerable unexpended balances from grants which have already been made, and are now engaged upon works in connection with these grants. As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, the proceeds of the proposed new taxation of mechanically propelled vehicles will not begin to fall in until 1st January, 1921; but a limited fund will be available during the remainder of 1920 for distribution in grants towards the cost of road improvements of exceptional urgency, which has not already been provided for. I regret that it is not possible to issue any further statement as to the allocation of these grants at present.

Arabia (Emir of Hail)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any further information regarding the assassination of Ibn Rashid, the Emir of Hail; who has succeeded to the emirate; whether the independence of this emirate is likely to continue; and whether any local hostilities have taken place in the Shammar country since the assassination?

This is properly an India Office question, and my right hon. Friend has asked me to take it for him. Information reached us about a month ago that Ibn Rashid, Emir of Hail, had been murdered, and had been succeeded by Abdullah Ibn Mitah, a boy of 13. It is too early to forecast the ultimate effect of these events upon the future of the Hail Emirate. No hostilities have been reported in the Shammar country since the late Emir's death, which is attributed to family jealousies.

Why should this question be taken by the India Office? Is it not time that an end should be put to the chaos in the administration of Middle Eastern affairs?

This is a very large question. I am advised that this is an India Office question.

Syria (French Paper Money)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if French paper money has now been made the only legal currently in that part of Syria which is under the French mandate; and what effect this has had on British trade?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The regulations are not known to have exercised any adverse effect on British trade at present, but the position is being closely watched.

Passports (France and Belgium)

asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, seeing that it would be a great help to British officials who are doing everything possible to facilitate travel, as well as to all members of the travelling public, if arrangements could be made with France and Belgium to dispose of the necessity of visas or endorsements on passports carried by the subjects of these respective countries, he will endeavour to arrange this?

As at present advised, I am not prepared to approach either the Belgian or the French Government for the conclusion of such an arrangement, but British and French visas may now be obtained which are available for one year, and the Belgian Government have been invited to modify their existing regulations in such a way as to enable British subjects to obtain a Belgian visa available for a similar period.

Germany (Currency)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Overseas Trade Department whether he has information that the German Government has fixed a ratio of seven to one between the silver and paper mark

The German Minister of Economics issued an order on February 7th last, under which the sale of silver coins at a higher rate than their nominal value is permissible only to the 13 Reichsbank or Post Office. In connection with this order, the Reichsbank has issued a notice fixing the purchase price of German silver coins at eight paper marks for one silver mark.

Pedigree Cattle (Exhibitions)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture if he will endeavour to obtain for breeders of pedigree cattle special cheap railway facilities for sending their cattle to and from agricultural exhibitions, and also to revive again the breeders' rate?

I have been asked to answer this question. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Member for the Ince Division on the 13th May announcing the restoration of pre-war concessions in respect of the conveyance of livestock to and from agricultural exhibitions. I am not clear to what arrangement the hon. Member refers in the latter portion of his question, but if he will send particulars I will make inquiry.

Ireland

Troops

May I ask the Leader of the House, in view of the newspaper reports as to the position in Ireland, whether he can give the House information as to the number and class of additional troops to be sent to Ireland?

I have no information to give on this subject, but we are sending, and shall send, whatever troops are asked for by the Irish Government.

Can my right hon. Friend give any details as to outrages which have occurred in Ireland since the House last met?

Business of the House

May I ask what other business on the Notice of Motion the right hon. Gentleman intends to take to-night?

My right hon. Friend will understand that it depends on whether or not this Vote ends early. If it end early, in all probability Order No. 2—Ecclesiastical Tithe Rentcharge (Rates) Bill—will be missed, and Order No. 22—Public Utility Companies (Capital Issues) Bill—taken

Does the right hon. Gentleman not think it a rather undesirable practice to begin to put down these Motions on Supply days? Will the Leader of the House inform us what business he proposes to take after the Recess, and what time the House will meet on Thursday, and, if his reply is that it meets at 12 o'clock, does he not think, in view of the rather large number of very important questions to be raised, he might suggest that hon. Members should be as reasonable as possible in the number of questions they put down for that day?

As regards the Motion for to-day, it is only owing to the holidays. If it should so happen that the Debate should finish early, we shall take other business. The business after the holidays will be

On Tuesday [1st June], Supply. The Vote has not yet been determined, but will be announced before the Adjournment.

On Wednesday and Thursday, the Government of Ireland Bill in Committee.

The suggestion made by my right hon. Friend is one which, I think, will commend itself to the House. We shall meet on Thursday next at 12 o'clock, and I am sure, in the circumstances, hon. Members will permit us to end the Session early. For that reason, I would venture to suggest that no Questions should be put down on Thursday which are not absolutely necessary.

Motion made, and Question put,

"That on this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Business other than Business of Supply may be taken before Eleven of the Clock.—[ Mr. Banar Law. ]"

The House divided: Ayes, 180; Noes, 34.

Division No. 118.]

AYES.

[3.50 p.m.

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Barnston, Major Harry

Bowles, Colonel H. F.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Barrand, A. R.

Breese, Major Charles E.

Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Betterton, Henry B.

Britain, Sir Harry

Astor, Viscountess

Bigland, Alfred

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Baird, John Lawrerce

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Baldwin, Stanley

Blair, Major Reginald

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Casey, T. W.

Hills, Major John Waller

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Hinds, John

Pratt, John William

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitching)

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Birm.,W.)

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A (Midlothian)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H H. Spender

Hopkins, John W. W.

Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel

Clough, Robert

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Cockerel, Lieut.-Colonel G. K.

Houston, Robert P,

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Hurd, Percy A.

Reid, D. D.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Remnant, Colonel Sir James F.

Colvin, Lieut.-Colonel Richard Beale

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Jephcott, A. R.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole

Jesson, C.

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelli)

Seddon, J. A.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Kelly, Major Fred (Rotherham)

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castie-on-T.)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Simm, M. T.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kennington, S.)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Dawes, Commander

Lloyd, George Butler

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

Donald, Thompson

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Stewart, Gershom

Duncannon, Viscount

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Sutherland, Sir William

Edge, Captain William

Lynn, R. J.

Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r)

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

M'Donald, Dr. Bouverle F. P.

Taylor, J.

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

MGuffin, Samuel

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Faille, Major Sir Bertram G.

MLean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell (Maryhill)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Tickler, Thomas George

Forestier-Walker, L.

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Wallace, J.

Forrest, W alter

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Wason, John Cathcart

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Moles, Thomas

Wigan, Lieut.-Colonel John Tyson

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Gilmour, Lieut-Colonel John

Morison, Thomas Brash

Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

Glyn, Major Ralph

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

Goff, Sir R. Park

Mount, William Arthur

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Grant, James A.

Murray, Lt.-Col. Hon. A. (Aberdeen)

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Neal, Arthur

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Greer, Harry

Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward

Woods, Sir Robert

Greig, Colonel James William

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Woolcock, William James U.

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Nield, Sir Herbert

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col.

Sir John Teo, Sir Alfred William

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W.

Young, Lieut.-Corn. E. H. (Norwich)

Hanna, George Boyle

Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

Young, William (Perth)

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Palmer, Lieut.-Colonel G. L.

Harmsworth, Sir R. L. (Caithness)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Haslam, Lewis

Pearce, Sir William

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. James

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Pennefather, De Fonbianque

Parker.

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil)

NOES.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Hallos, Eldred

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hayward, Major Evan

Royce, William Stapleton

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Hirst, G. H.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Briant, Frank

Irving, Dan

Sitch, Charles H.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Spoor, B. C.

Crooks, Rt. Hon. William

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Lawson, John J.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Galbraith, Samuel

Mills, John Edmund

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Glanville, Harold James

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Grundy, T. W.

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Mr. Hodge and Mr. Nell Maclean.

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Bill Presented

Housing (Conversion into Tenements) Bill,

"to remove doubts as to the meaning of Section twenty-seven of the Housing, Town Planning, etc., Act, 1919," presented by Lieut.-Colonel Sir JOHN NORTON-GRIFFITHS; to be read a second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 118.]

Message from the Lords

Government of India Act, 1919 (Draft Rules),—That they concur with the Commons in their Resolution, namely: "That it is expedient that a Select Committee of Seven Members be appointed to join with a Committee to be appointed by the Lords to revise the Draft Rules made under the Government of India Act," as desired by this House.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise Lever Brothers, Limited, to construct wharves, a railway, and other works in the parish of Bromborough, in the county of Chester; and for other purposes." [Lever Brothers (Wharves and Railway) Bill [ Lords ].

Lever Brothers (Wharves and Railway) Bill [ Lords ],

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Orders of the Day

Supply [10th Allotted Day]

Considered in Committee.

[Sir E. CORNWALL in the Chair.]

Navy Estimates, 1920–21

[PROGRESS].

Victualling and Clothing for the Nayy

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding ÂŁ7,864,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Victualling and Clothing for the Navy, including the cost of Victualling Establishments at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."

4.0 P.M.

My right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty will recollect that on a previous occasion I called his attention to the arrangements made in the Navy in respect to the clothing and uniforms of certain petty officers known as the Fore and aft rig. He was good enough subsequently to write me a letter promising to give attention to it. I want to tell him that I have been in communication with a very large number of petty officers in the Navy, and I can assure him that they feel somewhat keenly that the junior petty officers are excluded from wearing new uniform. He will remember that these executive petty officers, and, I think, stoker petty officers, are the only two classes who wear the blue jacket uniform in the Navy, and they feel that it is some what derogatory to them when they have to go abroad if other ratings wear the reefer coat, and therefore appear to possess higher rank. My right hon. Friend on the last occasion when this matter came up for consideration was good enough to say that there was to be a concession granted for the wearing of the desired rig by all petty officers except those under four years' seniority. It is on behalf of these junior petty officers that I want to ask him to be good enough again to give the matter his careful consideration. I can assure him that it is very keenly felt by the men themselves. The argument which my right hon. Friend used in the communication which he sent to me was that the seafaring officers' opinion was chat the blue jackets were the proper uniform for these petty officers to wear, and that it was better for them in their work. I am assured by the highest authority among the petty officers there is absolutely no difference between the work of. the junior petty officers and the Seniors petty officers. I have had large numbers of communications sent to me since I first raised this matter, and the bodies which represent the petty officers desire me to press the right hon. Gentleman and to ask him if he will be good enough to grant this concession right away. If so, he will please the whole of these men in the Navy.

I wish to support the view of the hon. Member about this long-sought-for concession of the fore and aft rig to chief petty officers. It has been one of the foremost requests of the lower deck for many years. The concession already made has been received with universal satisfaction in the Navy, and the desire of the younger chief petty officers to have the same concession made to them is universally supported by all naval officers and petty officers and by the men themselves. These young petty officers, because many of them I am glad to say are now being promoted younger than they used to be when they are efficient—they are men of good education, and so on—are just the men who need the added prestige of the different uniforms. They have difficulty with the older seamen who have been passed over, and it would help them to maintain discipline. Can the First Lord inform the Committee as to when a decision will be given with regard to the uniform for the commissioned ranks? I believe that officers have been told that they need not provide themselves with the full dress uniform for the present, but it would be a great convenience if they could be told as soon as possible what is the decision of the Admiralty, because, if it were suddenly decided that the full dress uniform must be provided, officers going abroad would have great difficulty in the middle of the rush on the tailors in getting the uniform. It is an important matter for the officers. The price of gold lace has gone up exceedingly. I should be very sorry to see the beautiful full dress uniform of the Navy abolished. I took part in a Committee during the War, and I recorded my vote against doing away with the full dress uniform, which has fine associations. Officers, however, want to know one way or the other. At the same time, I would express the hope that when the Admiralty does give its final decision the number of different dresses will be reduced as much as possible. Before the War there were many different rigs, some of which were hardly ever used. In view of the number of officers promoted from the rank whose means are limited, it is of the utmost importance that the uniform and kit should be as simple and as cheap as possible.

I should like to support what has fallen from the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) with regard to the full dress. I know that many naval officers are anxious to have a definite decision one way or them other, and I would like to put in a plea on behalf of this full dress. It is a matter of more importance than may appear on the surface. When our ships are in foreign ports our officers frequently have to meet the officers of other navies who very often rig up in some very elaborate full-dress uniform. We do not press for that, but possibly the present full-dress uniform might be retained, slightly modified so as not to have so much gold lace which is so very expensive. I do hope that the First Lord will be able to do something to reassure the Navy that the Admiralty are not going to do away altogether with the full dress. With regard to the other dresses for officers, a good deal might be done in the way of making dress optional. I would refer particularly to such dresses as No. 3 and the ball dress. I hope that the First Lord will be able to give us a little more information with regard to this matter. According to my information, the lower deck are very anxious indeed that the younger petty officers should have the privilege of wearing fore and aft rig extended to them in order to avoid any distinction being drawn.

I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would give his attention to a very few cases, but none the less urgent cases, of naval officers who joined the War and were detailed for service with the Air Force. They have been put to great expense in buying two sets of uniform, and now that the Air Service has no more use for them they have to return to the Navy. I know personally of two or three cases of officers who have been put to great expense in getting their uniform, and, as they were detailed by the Admiralty to go to the Air Force and they have now come back to the Navy, I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether they can have some grant of assistance.

I rise very cordially to support what has been said by the hon. Members opposite with regard to the fore and aft rig. I asked the First Lord a question on this point some little time ago, and I pressed him to consider the question of extending the privilege which has been already given. I was very disappointed with the answer which he gave, and I would like to ask him whether he could not now reconsider that answer, because, after the speeches of the two hon. Members opposite, I think he will agree with me that there is a large opinion in the Navy that this concession should be extended. It is very unfortunate that one class of these officers should appear in one rig and the others in another rig. I would therefore support with all my heart what has been said and hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to make the concession.

If my right hon. Friend and his colleague will look at page 4 of the Navy Estimates and at the year 1912–13, they will find that the average numbers borne on Vote A were 136,443. This year there is substantially the same number—136,000 in round figures. Looking at Vote 2, which is the Vote now before the Committee, I find that the amount asked for in 1912–13 was £2,841,949. The amount asked for to-day is £7,864,300, that is an increase of well over 300 per cent. Probably some fresh sub-heading between A and D has been put down, but there is nothing in any of the notes which are appended or anything which I can find by way of additional cost to account for this very large difference. Even assuming that there has been 100 or indeed 150 per cent. increased cost, I should like to know, and I imagine the Committee would like to know, what account the Executive can give of this very remarkable increase of 350 per cent.

Perhaps I might take the right hon. Gentleman's question first, before referring to the matters raised by the hon. Member for Central Portsmouth (Sir T. Bramsdon. He has questioned the very great rise that has taken place since 1912 on almost the same footing. When I remind him that wages, material, clothing and food supplies of all kinds have gone up very much since then and even since the termination of hostilities, he will recognise that it accounts practically for the increase. I have here a few figures which, perhaps, will substantiate what I say. Of course, without going into the matter much more fully, it is almost impossible to give a full explanation. I may say, however, that the cost of building work has gone up from 175 per cent. to 200 per cent.; the cost of victualling and clothing, 200 per cent.; naval stores, 107 per cent.; and the cost of coal, 255 per cent. When one takes into consideration figures of that kind, and, of course, without going very fully into what the various items are compared with similar items in 1912, it would be impossible off-hand to say how a large rise in prices in comparison with that particular year affects the whole Vote. I think it will be found that the increase is explained by the heavy cost to which I have just alluded. With regard to the question of petty officers' dress, I would like to say that my right hon. Friend is most sympathetic towards that question, but he does not desire to go any further than he went before. It must be borne in mind that there are great traditions to be abrogated and altered, and I think it would be fitting at the moment to rest with the, promise the First Lord gave to keep the matter open for further consideration, and not press the point any further to-day. With regard to the points raised about full dress and ball dress, all those matters are engaging our very careful attention.

My right hon. Friend informs me that ball dress has been done away with, and with regard to the other matters raised by the hon. Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy), they are also being considered, and I hope the Committee will not press unduly for details at the present moment. The whole question as to the cost of clothing and other materials. is one which is being very carefully taken into consideration.

I cannot say that I am satisfied with what my hon. and gallant Friend has said, because after taking, as well as I could, an account of the percentages which he has given in a rough estimate to account for the increase, that does not explain the very large differentiation, or rather disparity, between the two figures which I have given. May I draw attention to the fact that in regard to this Vote the number is about the only safe index we can hold on to. If we look at the year 1919–20 it will be seem that the number which was 280,000 has been reduced to 136,000, or a little over half. But although the numbers have gone down considerably the amount voted for 1919–20 was £11,915,596, and the difference this year, although I am sure this Department must have moved in sympathetic accord with the right hon. Gentleman in principle, is that the cost is only down to £10,469,419. There must be some reason for this, and my hon. and gallant Friend, in reply, has only dealt with round percentages. I would suggest that he should let the Committee know more details. This Vote might be taken as an example to give us more detailed information. What I want is a short businesslike statement showing the Committee what this difference really means, and why it is there. Although there is a similarity in numbers between 1912 and 1913 there is a difference of nearly £5,000,000 and we require an explanation.

:I think I can give a little more satisfaction in respect to the demand for the actual figures. The particular kind of comparison asked for by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Maclean) had not been anticipated. We will take note of his question that there should be an attempt made to explain more in detail the causes of the increases where they are considerable. This Vote shows an increase of ÂŁ5,642,000, and it is accounted for under three heads. There is an increase in price accounting for ÂŁ2,067,000. There has been an increase in the victualling and messing allowance to meet the higher prices, and this accounts for ÂŁ1,800,000, and then there is the establishment and kit allowances and other allowances accounting for ÂŁ1,770,000. Those three headings alone account for the whole increase. Meanwhile we will take note of the request that there should be some further elucidation, and we will see if that can be arranged when we prepare the next Estimate.

I suppose my right hon. Friend does not desire to have this money voted this afternoon?

If he does, then I suggest it is no use the First Lord or the Parliamentary Secretary coming down to the House without the facts in their possesion. It is part of their business to meet criticisms.

The facts given by the First Lord who has just sat down are different to those given by the Parliamentary Secretary who spoke first. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that the increase was due to a rise in prices, and he said victualling had gone up 200 per cent., and marine stores by 170 per cent. and coal 255 per cent.

I am sure my hon. Friend does not wish to misrepresent me. The right hon. Gentleman oppostie (Sir D. Maclean), without giving me any notice, suddenly picked out the year 1912, and asked how it was that there was such a vast difference between that year and this year. It would be impossible for anyone without considerable examination to be able to go into details of that kind. I knew it would be quite natural for someone to say that there was a great difference as compared with the old days. I took the headings under which there had been heavy increases, and I merely quoted them as an instance of what must have had a very great influence as compared with the year 1912. I did not receive any notice of this comparison, and I had to give the best explanation I could from details to hand.

I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend would be the last person to suggest that I have done anything irregular in raising a point of this kind. The reason I took that point was a very obvious one, because it was so apt in the similarity of the numbers for the two years which is the only index we can go upon. I discovered this not by chance, but after taking some trouble going through the Estimates. I intend going through these Estimates because that is my business here, and I think it is highly desirable, when we are approximating to peace conditions, that we should get back to this kind of examination.

There is another obvious reason why we should compare this year in addition to the fact that my right hon. Friend has chosen this year. The year 1912–13 is the last year in which we were free from any war-like operations, and we have now reached the period when once again we are free from war-like operations, and are considering the question of expense upon a peace basis. I will assume that the Parliamentary Secretary is right and that his illustration was only used for comparative purposes.

We are told there has been an increase of over £2,000,000 in prices, but if you look at the data for the years 1919–20 and 1920–21 you cannot find any such figure. There is, in fact, a decrease from £10,000,000 in 1919–20 to £7,864,000 in 1920–21. What comparative increases there may be in regard to the prices of food I invite the right hon. Gentleman to tell the Committee. But I repeat that if he will look through the items, he will find that half a dozen show decreases and the rest only small increases. I can find no increases running into a million or more. The duty of this Committee is to examine expenditure, and it is not for those in charge of the Estimates to come down here and try to explain away these figures on a general statement of that kind. It has been pointed out that there is an increase of over 300 per cent. in the figures drawn attention to by my right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles, and if the First Lord insists that an increase of a million or more is due to the increased cost of victualling, then we ask, where are the figures which show that? That is a pertinent and perfectly fair question, and I say the Committee ought not to pass this Vote until we get the figures I have asked for.

Would it not be well to bear in mind that there was no kit allowance in 1912–13, and that the victualling of men is now much more liberal than it then was?

There is one point in regard to food allowances which I mentioned to the right hon. Gentleman when he introduced the Navy Estimates. It was in connection with the victualling allowances to home ports and certain naval establishments, where ratings employed during leave have an allowance for food. Formerly the same allowance was made to both officers and men, but last April the allowance for officers was increased to 5s., while that for the men remained stationary at 2s. d. per day. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is now in a position to give me any information on that point.

May I suggest that if this Vote be taken now by consent, between this and the Report stage the House should be furnished with a White Paper giving the figures for which we are asking?

Certainly, we will give the figures as desired.

Question put, and agreed to.

Medical Establishments and Services

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding ÂŁ677,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the expense of medical services, including the cost of medical establishments at home and abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."

There can be no doubt at all that the Committee welcomes any further efficiency and, indeed, any reasonable addition to the cost of the medical services of the Navy, and in any criticism which I may now make I would like that position to be thoroughly well understood. But, taking comparisons again, I may point out that, while the numbers to-day are identical with those in 1912–13, the cost has risen from £279,000 in the latter year to £677,000 in this Vote. I know, of course, that the prices of medical stores have soared almost beyond the range of percentages. But on the question of numbers I do wish to elicit further information. As far as can see, on the medical establishments at home and abroad there has been this year no reduction at all in numbers. While under Vote A the number of officers and men for the Royal Navy has fallen from 225,000 to 126,000, on the medical establishment there has been no corresponding reduction, and we would like to know why the number is maintained and why there is practically no change in the cost. I believe the difference in figures is not more than £8,000. If there has been a great reduction in the number of fighting units in commission, why is it we still require three' Surgeon Rear-Admirals, eight Surgeon Captains, 17 Surgeon Commanders, and 43 Surgeon Lieutenants? I notice there is some reduction in the nursing staff, and that the cost there has gone down from £34,300 last year, to £30,700 this year. But there is a greater charge for the Rear-Admirals, whose numbers are undiminished, £50. There is a slight increase in the charge for Surgeon Captains, while that for Surgeon Commanders has risen from £16,900 to £18,400. These figures require adequate explanation, and we ought certainly to be told why, while the numbers of the Navy generally have gone down, the medical service shows no corresponding reduction, either in numbers or in cost.

I regret that this Vote was put down somewhat suddenly, as I wanted to give notice of my intention to raise certain points. But I have been unable to do so, and, of course, I do not expect a very definite reply from my hon. Friend (Sir J. Craig). There are, however, some important points in connection with the sick berth staff to which I have to draw attention. I put down three very important questions on the 28th April last, and in the first of these I dealt with the slowness of promotion among the sick berth ratings. My question really had reference to the Royal Naval Hospital at Haslar, but my hon. Friend, when replying, told me my figures were wrong. Evidently he thought my question referred to the whole Royal Naval staff throughout the country, and perhaps I should have made it clearer that I was only dealing with the position at Haslar. In regard to that, I think he will allow me to say that my figures were accurate. There has undoubtedly been great slowness of promotion in connection with the sick berth staff, and it has been due to several causes. One was, of course, the war, as a consequence of which a number of pensioners and temporary probationers were introduced, and that in itself caused promotion to get slack. The Durnford Commission of 1910 expressed a desire that sick berth ratings should attain the rating of chief sick berth steward at the age of 32, and I think my hon. Friend will appreciate the fact that it is desirable, if the staff is to be kept in an efficient state, that there should be reasonable promotion. When a young man goes into a particular branch of the service he looks for promotion. He hopes to obtain it by ability, energy, and skill in something like fair and reasonable time, and if he does not get it, then dissatisfaction is caused and it becomes difficult to attract young men into that particular branch of the service in anything like sufficient numbers.

I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that the sick berth staff are a most efficient body. During the War certain pensioners and a temporary staff were brought in. I do not suggest that these people were inefficient, but what they did was to block the way to promotion, and I want my hon. Friend to be good enough to look into this question and to see whether these outside influences have been or can be eliminated, so that there may be more rapid promotion for this young staff. I hope that the pensioner staff by this time has gone. My hon. Friend said that they were retained because of an epidemic of influenza. I take it that that epidemic has disappeared, and we should now be told whether the pensioners have been discharged. I am quite sure that the difficulty which has existed in getting sick berth ratings will disappear if only promotion, is placed on a more satisfactory footing, as there are plenty of young fellows who are fit and willing to undertake this particular class of work. There was another point raised in my question, and that was that certain unqualified ratings were actually placed in charge of wards, in order to allow leave to members of the staff. I suggest that that was a very wrong proceeding, because if there is one place in which there should be qualified ratings in charge, it is a hospital. To leave unqualified ratings in charge of wards is a very bad thing indeed. If the unnecessary elements to which I have referred could be eliminated, all these difficulties would disappear.

In another question I asked whether the right hon. Gentleman would be good enough to request the Medical Director-General to pay a visit to the Royal Naval Hospital at Haslar, the object being that he might, on his official visit, see for himself what the situation was. My hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary guardedly said that the matter was being looked into, and that no doubt it would be done. I should be glad if he could tell me if it has been done. If he cannot tell me now, I should be glad if he would make inquiries and see whether my suggestion can be carried out, as I think it would result in the disappearance of a good deal of discontent. I know that my hon. and gallant Friend is going to say that there have been a considerable number of promotions since I put down my questions. He is perfectly right, and I am much obliged to him and to the Admiralty, on behalf of the staffs to which I refer, for the concessions which have been made, but I do submit that they are not enough. If he will be good enough to look into the whole question, he will be able to satisfy himself that, if he wants that proficiency and content which should exist in all branches of the service, it would be desirable that there should be even a little more promotion. These men are grateful for what has been done since I put down my questions, and I make these observations in order to show what the present situation is.

I should like to ask one or two questions about two items on page 37, under Subhead B. In 1919–20 the amount for "Additional Staff for War requirements "was £26,290, and this year it is £7,750. I am sure no one in the Committee wishes in any way to starve the Medical Services, and any extra ratings for succouring and comforting our men who have not recovered from injuries or sickness arising out of the War we shall willingly vote for. I wish, however, to know if this extra War charge of £7,750 for 1920–21 has anything to do with recent operations in the Black Sea. The First Lord seems rather amused at my making this inquiry, but I want to get at the cost of our present policy in the Black Sea, and I should like to know how much of these items is due to our movements there.

I only smiled in admiration of my hon. and gallant Friend's ingenuity in always getting back to the Black Sea, wherever he starts from.

I hope I shall be able to get a little information, because I have not extracted very much from the right hon. Gentleman, inspite of my ingenuity. If these extra ratings have to do with naval hospitals at Constantinople or in the Crimea, I should like to ask whether they are employed on succouring and attending our own men, or Russians. Lower down on the same page there is an item which requires even more explanation. It is one which has gone up instead of down since last year. In 1919–20 we voted a sum of £9,500 on account of the expenses of two hospital ships. That, of course, is not the whole of the expense, but is simply the wages of civilian crews, and the cost of messing and victualling the naval and civilian crews on board. It does not include hire charges, coal, or stores. This year the sum is £40,270. Could the Committee be given some information as to what those two hospital ships are employed upon? The First Lord will remember that last week it was brought out in answer to questions that a number of British soldiers are detained in Egypt in the hot weather, to the great detriment of their health, because there are no hospital ships to bring them home. Are these hospital ships fully employed in bringing home sick men from abroad, or are they with the Atlantic Fleet or the Channel Fleet at home in the ordinary routine work of hospital ships of the fleet; or are they employed in what I may call trooping services—as apart from taking Naval ratings who are sick—in the Black Sea? Are they being used for evacuating refugees? I do not say they should not be so used, but I think we ought to know before we vote this money. We know that there is a shortage of hospital ship accommodation for bringing sick British soldiers from Egypt. I suggest that, if it is possible, these naval hospital ships might well be employed in assisting the Army to bring those soldiers home. If they are employed on any other service which prevents them from doing that, and which is not purely a British Naval service, I think the Committee ought to be informed.

Perhaps I might first deal with the last criticism, with regard to hospital ships.

My hon. and gallant Friend made the criticism that last year's amount of ÂŁ26,290 had only been reduced to ÂŁ7,750, which, I hope, is in the direc- tion of the desire of the Committee. Of course, it was impossible suddenly to drop from war conditions to peace conditions without going through a transition stage, and at any rate that particular item has made rapid strides in the right direction.

I do not think I made my meaning quite clear. I congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend on the reduction, as long as our men have not been in any way starved of their requirements; but why is ÂŁ7,000 still required?

I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press me now for minute details, which I can get for him. The great point is that we are getting back—slowly in some cases, more rapidly in others—to what we hope will be a satisfactory state of finance, but it cannot be done suddenly, and I could not give straight away the details of the £7,750. With regard to the hospital ships, we have still on hire at the moment two hospital ships. We are going to replace them, probably, by purchase. One of them is attending on the Atlantic Fleet, and the other on the Mediterranean Fleet. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will appreciate that, where their services are required, there those ships should be, in accordance with Naval policy, and that they will carry out any duty required of them by the Admiral commanding either Fleet. I am afraid I cannot go into the minutiae of the amounts that might be set off with regard to each particular duty the hospital ships might have to perform. My right hon. Friend opposite (Sir D. Maclean) might like to know that the personnel afloat is paid for out of Vote 1, not out of Vote 3. I admit that something might be done to make the Estimate a little clear in this respect, and I will promise to meet my right hon. Friend's wishes with regard to that. I quite agree that it is difficult to take up the Vote and recognise at once what is applicable to abroad and what is applicable to home. With regard to the questions which have been put down from time to time by the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir T. Bramsdon), I can only say that the matter has engaged my own personal and close attention. With regard to going a step further, I shall be very glad to take note of what he has said, and, if it is at all possible to meet him, he may rest assured that it will be done. As regards a visit by the Director-General to examine into affairs at the hospital, if that is necessary I, of course, say without hesitation that the visit shall be arranged as soon as possible.

I believe it to be a fact that, before the War, the position of hospital ships in the Navy was not very satisfactory, and I hope that a definite policy will be laid down with regard to them. I have noticed that, in certain Naval depots and Naval establishments, the medical staff have certain periods when they have very little to do. A suggestion either has been made or will be made at the next meeting of the Welfare Committee that, where possible, Naval medical officers should be allowed to attend on the wives and children of the men. I commend that suggestion to my right hon. Friend, and I hope that, when it comes before the Welfare Committee, it will receive favourable consideration. It will provide the medical staff with increased opportunities for practice, and possibly for extending their experience. Many questions have been raised for the consideration of the Welfare Committee, whose Report is now being considered by the Admiralty, and many more questions will be raised later. I hope that the First Lord will be able to give us some information as to when we may hear a little more about that Report.

5.0 P.M.

I am sorry I have not been able to follow the explanation given by my hon. and gallant Friend. The question I asked was, why it is that, on this Vote 3, with the number of men down by one-half, the medical service, both in cost and in numbers, shows no reduction. The answer I got was that there is something shown in Vote 1—that the officers' salaries come under Vote 1. That is like throwing a needle into a bundle of hay, so far as information is concerned; you simply cannot find it. I suggest that this Vote, as it stands, is really incomprehensible. It does not correspond with the facts of the case, which are, no doubt, quite creditable to the Departments concerned. I am only suggesting that this is a way of presenting it to the Committee which ought to be corrected. A very useful precedent to set for the Department, and other Departments concerned would be to withdraw the vote.

What are you going to do on Report? I do not want to do anything obstructive, I want to get the things straight. What can the hon. and gallant gentleman show me as a reason for my not pressing this? What will he do between this and Report?

All I meant to convey was that when I read through the report of what has happened to-day, any criticism that I have not been able to pick up at the moment I will certainly have made right on the White Paper which I propose to have prepared. In these estimates, as they are presented very carefully on the financial side and according to tradition carried on from year to year, the very best is done to give the fullest information. But if the right hon. Gentleman makes a point I will pick it up on the Report stage.

The only point have made is this: Why is it that, as disclosed by Vote 3, the Medical Service shows no reduction from last year either in numbers or in cost?

I want to know where I can find it. He tells me it is somewhere in Vote 1. If I turn to Vote 1 I cannot see it and neither can he. I am suggesting that the Vote should be withdrawn so that it can come back to the Committee and the hon. and gallant Gentleman will be able to tell us where it is.

It is interesting to notice that on page 36 there are only two increases in what is asked for in 1920–21 as against 1919–20. Everything is down except B, wages, and H, hospital and infirmary provisions and stores. We have nothing to complain about in the other items. The reduction is very slight, but it is on the right side. The economies are so much to the good though they are nothing like they ought to become with the number of men now engaged compared with those engaged during the War. On the next page there is an anticipated reduction of £5,500 in the making of additional appointments. I should like to hear something about that, because obviously if we are going to economise we are going to economise round the bigger men. For instance, you have three surgeon rear-admirals. Only two of them seem to require secretaries. I suppose the one who does not require a secretary is the one who does the work and the others are those who enjoy the leisure. Anyhow, it is these little autobiographical facts that we discover from the figures that lead one to make this kind of inquiry. Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman Contemplate making any reduction in the number of men in this extraordinary list?. There are four chaplains. There are only three surgeons. I do not know whether the surgeons work quicker than the chaplains and that is the reason for the increased number. That is where you can save money. If they were required for new hospitals or for the continuation of the same number of men in hospital, I could understand it, but as far as I can understand, this increase of £46,550 is entirely due to the probably increased cost of such things as X-ray and bacteriological instruments, etc., which must have gone up. I have no objection to the hospitals being efficient. If you are going to pay men a good salary you ought to have efficient material to work with. But this item of £5,500 seems to suggest that my right hon. Friend contemplates some reduction in the staff. I should very much like to know if he does, because that way economy lies so far as the big salaried men are concerned, because every one of them carries a fleet of other men attached to him who all draw wages and increase cost. In connection with B, Increase of Wages: which is only £18,000 less than was wanted last year for war requirements there is an item of £7,750 for additional staff connected with medical establishments. I thought we had finished the War. In the War Pensions Ministry Bill the date of the finish of the War is mentioned in order to exclude discharged and demobilised men from receiving certain rights. Next door there is an item of £40,270 for wages of civilian crews, messing and victualling of two hospital ships. It may be that the Navy carries a couple of hospital ships as ordinary equipment. I do not know. I should have thought in time of peace the bulk of the men did not require to be dealt with in hospital ships. Is it impossible to do without these ships? Cannot the sick men in the Navy, now that we have reached peace establishment, be dealt with in ordinary ways and this £40,000 be saved?

I am very loath to make any criticism of any expenditure for the Navy. I should like to see the Navy kept in the very strongest possible manner, and all the money that is necessary spent upon the effective services. But I do not quite, understand this Vote 3. The number of men this year is 136,000 as against 280,000 last year. The number of men having declined by something like a half, one would have thought the medical establishment and service ought to have declined in somewhat the same degree, instead of which it appears to cost more to treat 136,000 men than to treat 280,000. It cannot be said that that is owing to the increased cost of material and wages, because we are dealing not with the period before the War, or at the beginning of the War, but with last year, and there can have been very little, if any, increase between last year and this year. I find under H, hospitals' and infirmaries provisions and stores, medicines and instruments, ÂŁ278,000, as against ÂŁ232,000. That seems to me to require some little explanation as to why it is necessary to spend more when there are far fewer men to deal with. On the face of it it seems impossible of explanation. H is a very confused item, and we ought to have some further information on it. There are a great many things lumped together. One would have thought there would be plenty of ambulances and that we might have been able to sell some instead of buying any more after six years of war. It seems to me to be absolutely impossible for any layman who is not in the Board of Admiralty to unravel all these items. The two hospital ships last year cost ÂŁ9,500. Why should they cost ÂŁ40,000 this year? There has been no great epidemic that I know of in the Navy. I shall be only too glad to vote and to be taxed to find the money to maintain the fleet in the most efficient manner and to have a large fleet, because I believe the larger it is the less the risk of war. If we had had a better fleet at the beginning of the War we should not have spent so much money or lost so many lives. But I am not prepared to pay a large sum of money for medical establishments and service unless it can be proved that it is absolutely necessary. It seems to me that on the face of it it will require all the ability of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to justify the increased expenditure on medical services seeing that the personnel of the Navy has been decreased by more than one-half.

I much regret to find opposition to this proposal to grant the necessary amount of money towards the expenditure on the medical services of the Navy. Very frequently we have found in the past that the medical services in this country are utilised to a very large extent for the benefit of the nation more than for the benefit of the medical profession. I am sorry to hear my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Battersea (Viscount Curzon) suggest that these medical officers of the Navy should be asked to attend the families and children of the members of the Service. It is suggested that many medical men are very often found with insufficient work. I have known some officers in the Navy who have had a considerable amount of time at their disposal, as well as medical men. A great deal has been said about the increased cost compared with previous years. Many hon. Members do not realise the enormous increase in the cost of medicine and surgical appliances.

Olive oil has increased in price from 3s. to 12s. 6d.; belladonna from 8s. to nearly 40s., an increase of 400 per cent.

My whole point is that the cost of these services includes the increased cost of medicines and surgical appliances, and also the fact that medical salaries have been increased. So far as the medical profession is concerned we do not feel that this Estimate is above what what might be expected.

The right hon. Member for the City raised a point as to the estimated increase of £40,270 for the wages of civilian crews, and the messing and victualling of naval and civilian crews on two hospital ships, as against £9,500 in 1919–20. If my right hon. Friend will look at the bottom of page 5 he will observe that there is a drop from £8,489,000 to £3,290,000 on Vote 11. This particular sum of £40,000 has been brought down from the Ministry of Shipping, and is a book-keeping entry. We are getting back again to the pre-War system, whereas in 1919–20 this question came under the Ministry of Shipping and was paid for on other Votes. It is now retransferred to us, and it appears to be an increase; but he will see that there is a very great decrease in miscellaneous items which accounts for this sum. These are intricate matters of book-keeping which require great care. The Committee have been quite right in examining very carefully the details. So far as the cost for medical services in the Navy is concerned, I hope the Noble Viscount will not press the matter, and that the Committee will be prepared to give us the Vote now.

Can my hon. and gallant Friend tell us what he has in contemplation in the reduction of ÂŁ5,000, which is an anticipated reduction and not a real reduction? It says, "Deduct for anticipated reduction of acting and additional appointments." You cannot deduct money from an anticipated reduction if you have not got the reduction. Are you really contemplating any substantial change?

With respect to the item, "Medical sustenance of seamen at sick quarters," I should like to point out that before the War this item had to do with cases in which seamen were sent ashore ill, and they were dealt with by the surgeons of the Navy. The surgeon had to find accommodation for the seamen in that particular spot, which might be in a remote part of the country. As a matter of practice it is very often difficult to find accommodation for persons who are taken ill, because landladies are not too anxious to take sick people. Before the War it was very difficult, not only because of the inherent difficulty of getting people to take sick seamen, but on account of the amount which was allowed to be paid. A person who took charge of a sick seaman was paid 2s. a day, which included the cost of lodging, food and nursing. That was sweating of the very deepest dye. I understand that it has been increased since. The present figure may be 2s. 6d. or 3s. a day. I think the Financial Secretary said that victualling had increased by 200 per cent. in cost. If the Admiralty have found that large increase in victualling when they are dealing with big contracts, what about the keepers of lodging houses or those who, for the sake of humanity, take in sick people? The Admiralty must recognise that victualling has increased td them just as much as to the Admiralty. The amount allowed ought to be in proportion to the increased cost of living, otherwise it will either tell against the victualling that the sick person receives and the attention that he receives, or the person who takes in the patient will be mulcted in loss by a rich country. The allowance should be sufficient to feed the man and to provide a reasonable amount of nursing. In very serious cases a special nurse has to be taken, but as a rule the nursing is done by the women who take the sick men into their houses. If the present allowance is only 3s. per day, it is absolute sweating, considering the present cost of living.

What is the Financial Secretary going to give us between now and the Report stage in regard to this Vote? Can he say what reason there is for maintaining substantially in numbers and in cost the medical service as it was last year, seeing that the numbers of the men have been cut down by half?

The right hon. Member is referring to the numbers abroad, but this Vote covers home and abroad shore services, which are normally the same and not affected by the large reduction in the Navy. I shall be glad to give any further information that is possible.

The hon. and gallant Member will issue between now and the Report stage a White Paper showing quite clearly what information he has on Vote 3?

The hon. and gallant Member has told me that of the two hospital ships one is with the Atlantic Fleet and the other with the Mediterranean Fleet. I take it that the hospital ship attached to the Mediterranean Fleet is fully engaged in the Black Sea. If our policy means the maintenance of a squadron in those waters and if our squadrons are to be engaged in fighting, as they are at present, there must be a. hospital ship in attendance. With regard to the Atlantic Fleet. Before the War we had only one hospital ship, and she was sent to different stations where she was required, and we had not then the practice of stationing a hospital ship with any particular Fleet. The Atlantic Fleet is small, only consisting of ten battleships, and I imagine they are mostly in touch with shore hospitals. They are modern ships, with beautifully fitted-up sick quarters, where the comfort, except when the ships are in action, is as good as the accommodation on hospital ships. The modern men-if-war, the dreadnoughts, have an X-ray installation and the latest surgical appliances. There would be no hardship inflicted on the Fleet if the hospital ship from the Atlantic Fleet could be lent to the Mediterranean, where there is no doubt urgent need for an extra hospital ship. There is delay in bringing invalids, naval and military, to this country. There is serious delay in bringing military ratings from the East. I am not wrong in saying that there is sometimes delay in bringing them from Constantinople and Malta. I am sure that that hospital ship might be very well employed on that service, and I make the suggestion with the object of securing an earlier return of invalids, naval and military, especially military, so that they may not be exhausting their strength in the hot weather in the Mediterranean.

I understand that the item concerning the expenditure on the two hospital ships has been increased this year because last year part of the expense was borne by the Ministry of Shipping. I am glad to know the Estimates are in such a form that the expenditure for each Department will in future appear for that Department, but I do not think my hon. Friend gave any explanation of the rise in the expenditure for medical establishments and services, of something like ÂŁ50,000 for this year over last year. The hon. Gentleman endeavoured to defend the Vote on the ground that the drugs have risen. No doubt they have risen since 1914, but we are making a comparison with only a year ago, and there has been no appreciable increase either in drugs or other commodities since last year. Therefore that argument is unsound. I understand that these hospitals are permanent hospitals, which do not vary with the size of the Navy, and therefore salaries and allowances payable must always be the same, and there is nothing to complain of if that is the case, but with the general reduction of men, how can you want the same provisions, stores and equipment for a very much smaller number of patients? The machinery must be kept in existence, but the cost of provisions, drugs, medicines, impliments, etc., cannot be so great when you have a very much smaller number of people to treat. Then as to prices, they have not gone up since last year, or only by a small percentage, and some explanation is required.

My right hon. Friend started off by saying that there was a difference of £50,000 in the Vote for this year as compared with last year. Then he said he was quite satisfied with the explanation which I gave with regard to the transfer by the book-keeping entry as between ourselves and the Ministry of Shipping, which covers such a very large portion of the expenditure. The next point is with reference to wages, drugs, and things of that sort, and the cost of these has gone up considerably since last year. My right hon. Friend also referred to the numbers of persons who must be involved, but this Vote is for normal hospitals at home and abroad on land. have made as full an explanation as I can on the face of the Vote to-day. This is the first day on which I have had charge of these Estimates. I have no desire whatever—and my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long) supports me—except to give the fullest possible information in my possession. If, on looking through the Debates to-morrow, there is anything which appears to me to have been missed, I will be only too delighted to fill in the gap as soon as I possibly can.

I have not been able to take part in the Debate from a technical point of view, hut I might refer to a certain experience which I had when I occupied in the War Office a position corresponding to that of the hon. and gallant Member in the Admiralty. We found there was no Department in which it was more difficult to reduce expenses than the medical department, with the exception of the nursing department, because doctors always had such a very strong position in pointing out the fine work which they did, and how essential it was that they should have, without question, all the material and apparatus which they required, and the Adjutant-General was very much afraid of them, and they were very much afraid of the nurses, and it was very difficult to see, although medical science was advancing and disease was being prevented, anything like a pari passu reduction in medical services. Therefore, I think that this discussion has been of use, and that we should be grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the care he has taken in answering questions.

Question put, and agreed to.

Civilians Employed on Fleet Services

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding ÂŁ504,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Civilians employed on Fleet Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."

I hope I am right in assuming that all the information which is required in regard to this Vote is on the Vote.

The numbers of men having been reduced by one half, I do not understand why the civilians employed on Fleet Service should cost more this year than last year. From page 4 of the Estimates under the head- ing of Vote 4 (A), it appears that the cost of civilians employed on similar services in 1914–15 was £176,977. That rose naturally as the War progressed. In 1915–16 it was £445,000. In 1916–17 it was £517,000; in 1917–18 it was £561,000; in 1918–19, as the intensity of the War position began to decline, it was £491,270. But in 1921 it rose to £496,000, and this year it is to be £504,000. I cannot see why there should not be a great reduction in the Vote for the current year. Look at the particulars of the Vote under heading (A), and take salaries and allowances. What is it for? Mining School and Signal School, and one or two other items. I should have thought that the greatest expenditure for the current year would have been the removal of mines, and not the development of mines, though, of course, you are bound to conduct a mining school, but not on the scale of the last years of the War, which is practically the position to-day so far as cost is concerned. Then as to signalling, you do not require anything like the amount spent on instruction in signalling this year that you did in the last year of the War. That reflects itself under heading B. Wages, where for the training establishments, including gunnery, navigation, signalling, mine-schools, etc., there is a rise of from £120,000 last year to £139,980 this year. Why in the name of common sense is it necessary to increase that when the naval threat in any part of the world has practically disappeared? The only suggestion of a naval threat came from the United States. Mr. Daniels said he was going to build a very largely increased navy, but, I hope very largely owing to my right hon. Friend's (Mr. Long) statesmanlike appeal on the Naval Estimates, that the competition which we needed was not for an increase, but for a reduction, the Senate very soon afterwards rejected the Estimate to which we were then making some reference. I would be glad if my hon. and gallant Friend would explain this increase; I daresay that there is an explanation, but I should be interested to know what it is.

I wish for some information with regard to women employed in the Naval establishments on shore. A number of women of the Women's Royal Naval Service were employed during the War, and excellent and devoted service they gave. The Women's Royal Naval Service has been disbanded, but I understand that within twenty-four hours of their disbandment some of the women were taken on again in ordinary civilian clothes, and put to the same work as they had been doing previously. That may have been a temporary expedient. If any of these young women are left now it is an injustice to the men in two directions. Either these jobs in the barracks and shore establishments ought to be filled by ex-naval writers and pensioned writers, or else they ought to be filled by active service naval writers. When a man has spent his three years abroad on a foreign station he likes, when he comes home, to get a short spell on shore in a job of this kind, and then he has a chance of seeing his family and of helping in the bringing up of his children.

To what part of the Vote is the hon. and gallant Gentleman referring?

I was raising the question whether these women are being employed as civilians.

I realise the importance of the point, but I do not see where it arises on this Vote.

No, Sir. But may I point out that the item is very vague indeed, and many thousands of pounds are put under the head of "Miscellaneous Services." I respectfully submit that these women, now employed and paid as civilians, cannot come under any other Vote. In fact, I raised this particular question on the same Vote last year. My information is that the evil still remains, though to a lesser extent. In any case I was about to pass from that item. I am sure the First Lord will be sympathetic from the two points of view of the ex-service men and the active service writers, and will see that they are not kept out of these desirable jobs. Another point to which I would refer is the survey of Gibraltar Harbour. This, of course, is a small item, but it is one on which, I think, money might be saved. The survey has been going on for a number of years, and I think it is time it was completed. I asked about it last year. The head of the survey is a retired Commander of the Royal Navy. I am not in any way discussing his salary, but he has a civilian staff. I think I am not far wrong in saying that these surveys could be wound up at a great saving to the State. It is one of the items that is apt to be overlooked, and I commend it to the attention of the First Lord. With regard to the increase in the amount of money asked for, to which the right hon. Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) referred, I would like to support what he said with regard to the extra expenditure on training establishments. Training establishments before the War were very efficient and very numerous, and they were added to greatly during the War. If these establishments are being kept up on the same scale as during the War, or even on the same scale as in 1913–14, I think it is a grave waste of money. I know that the item refers to civilian ratings and the defence may be made that wages have been raised, but, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, the increase from last year is almost £20,000 in the matter of the training establishments alone. In particular I would point to the proposed transfer of the torpedo school at Portsmouth from the "Vernon." It is not a necessity, or an expense which we can stand, impoverished as we are at the present time. If that is one of the causes of the wages increase, I think it ought to be checked immediately.

I must apologise for speaking on naval questions, seeing that I have been mostly concerned with Army and Air matters. But I think that the First Lord, who, I know, is keen about the scientific side of the Navy's work, might give some explanation of an apparent anomaly in this Vote. It is the fact that the total amount has increased compared with last year. Although the Fleet and the number of ships in commission are greatly reduced, yet, on the scientific side, the wireless telegraphy side, in which I and many others take a deep interest owing to its bearing on co-operation betwen Navy and Air, appears to be largely reduced. For instance, the first item is abolished altogether, and the item, "Training Establishments, including Wireless Telegraphy," shows a reduction. I should not have risen but for the fact that whenever one sees a spectacle of this kind I think the House and the Committee must challenge it. What we want to see is the science by land, sea and air kept up to concert pitch. There may be an explana- tion. If not, we shall not have sat here in vain in drawing the attention of the First Lord to the point.

On page 41 there is an item, "Redundant Warder Staff at Detention Barracks." What is a redundant warder? If they are redundant why do we not get rid of them? This applies to only two warders as far as I can see—£297—so that it is not a very large amount, but it seems rather extraordinary that at a moment when we ought to be as economical as we can be we should have redundant warders, even if there are only two of them. There is a footnote which says:

"As vacancies occur the warder staff is replaced by active service ratings provided for under Vote 1."

That does not seem to supply an answer to my question.

There is an item on page 41 which seems to require explanation. It is the first item in Sub-section B, in which we are told that "Working parties, etc., Naval Barracks "cost ÂŁ98,660 this year, as against ÂŁ96,000 last year. Is there something included in the "et cetera" with which we are not familiar? I remember an old Scottish inspector of schools telling a story of his experience that whenever anybody was at a loss to answer an examination question he usually referred to one or two things and then added the word "et cetera" in order to show that he really did know what ought to be included. I can conceive some reason for working purties during the war, but now that the war is over why are these civilian working parties required? Reference has been made to redundant workers and to a footnote which says that they are being replaced as speedily as possible by active service ratings. I should have imagined that the work done by civilian working parties in connection with the Naval Barracks could be done by active ratings now. It seems ridiculous that Ministers should ask for an increase of ÂŁ2,660 for civilian working parties at a time like this.

6.0 P.M.

With regard to the question of a general increase in the amount of the Vote, the answer is that it is made up chiefly of rises in wages amongst the Naval ratings as well as amongst civilians, and it is also due to a rise in petty charges. We have a number of vessels which are not being commissioned. In the meantime they have caretakers on board. There is a large number of such vessels laid up while their future is being carefully worked out, and it is being decided whether they are to be sold or otherwise disposed of. With regard to the wireless telegraphy staff and other schools of instruction, my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long), who has been all the morning at the Mining School, assures me that we have a minimum staff there, and that it would be impossible to ensure scientific progress unless we continue the staff now in existence. My right hon. Friend has raised a point as to what Vote deals with wireless telegraphy. That has been transferred to Vote 6, which he will find on page 53. He will see that there is no fear whatever that any modern scientific researches or proceedings will be neglected.

That is only one point, but though the whole Vote showed an increase, there was a considerable reduction on wireless telegraphy under sub-head B in wages from ÂŁ127,000 to ÂŁ97,000.

I sympathise with my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary in having to defend Estimates which, of course, he had no hand at all in framing. Indeed, I feel that both the First Lord and the Financial Secretary are having a little education in their own Estimates this afternoon. Having listened to this discussion on these Estimates, I have come to the conclusion that there are great economies which can be effected. I know how impossible it is for the political heads of the Department to go closely into all the details of the Estimates. I suggest to the First Lord he has to get his Department out of the expensive ways which were contracted during the War. I suggest also that he should make the Accountant-General of the Navy a very much more important officer, and that all these items should go before the Accountant-General and let him state his objections to them, for settlement by the responsible heads of the Department. It is quite impossible for us to go into the details here. There should be an official in the Admiralty to do it. The Accountant-General's Department has been depressed of recent years, and I am quite certain that the expenditure, which naturally enough during the War could not be properly checked, should now be checked in the Department, and it is in the Department of the Parliamentary Secretary that these Estimates have got to come down, and can only be brought down. May I give a little personal reminiscence to the Committee? In the days when Mr. Runciman and Mr. McKenna and the present Prime Minister were great naval economists, Mr. McKenna and Mr. Runciman came over to the Admiralty and endeavoured to go into the details of the Estimates. Within an hour they were smothered with the officials, there, and they did not know where they were. The present Prime Minister, with that acuteness and acumen which is so characteristic of him, came over in a different spirit altogether. He said, "I want a million off those Estimates, and you people must help me to get it off," and then the Department set itself to work and got it off. I do not know where it went off, but, at any rate, the Estimates were reduced by a million that year owing to the appeal of the present Prime Minister. I put it emphatically to the Financial Secretary that it is within his Department you must deal with these Estimates to bring them down. It must be done either by the Admiralty or the Treasury. I am positive that if next year Estimates similar to these are presented, there will be a considerable financial explosion in the country. All the details should be put before the accounting officer and let him question the people who are responsible for making the expenditure, and then let the final decision go before the political heads. I think my suggestion is a good one, and I hope it will be acted upon.

I rise in no way to complain of the criticisms which have been addressed to us, because the Estimates of the great spending Departments have, during all the years I have been here, afforded an admirable opportunity to the Opposition. I do not wish to belittle the importance of the criticism, but in such a mass of details it is quite easy to pick out some question which cannot be immediately answered. It has been suggested that owing to the end of the War it might have been expected that the vote for the Mining School would not have been increased. I have been ail over the Mining School this morning, and made a most careful examination into the numbers employed there, both naval and civilian. The school has nothing to do with the production of mines for use at sea, but it is for the purpose of instruction and for the development of work which it is of the utmost importance should be done whilst we have the facts and materials on which experiments can be made fresh before us. If we were to relax our efforts in this respect we should be condemned by the House of Commons and the country. It is very necessary our knowledge on these matters should be complete and up to date. My right hon. and gallant Friend (Major-General Seely) asked me about wireless telegraphy. I cannot make out what this means by being transferred to Vote 6, Sub-head 0, but he can take it that I will investigate the matter and give him an answer privately before Report and on Report, in case my answer is not satisfactory. I entirely share his views as to the development of these scientific questions. The only way to keep our fighting forces equal to the work they have to do is to develop to the utmost extent scientific invention and discovery and certainly so far as the Admiralty are concerned that is our view and we shall do our best to press it forward.

My right hon. Friend (Mr. Lambert) pointed out that in the present financial position it is almost vital that we should cut our Estimates down. As an old and distinguished member of the Board of Admiralty himself, I was rather sorry he did not give credit for what has been done. There is no other Department which shows so immense a reduction in Estimates as is to be found in the Naval Estimates of this year. Although the figures have been so heavily brought down, yet we can assure the House and the country that we have got a Navy sufficient and efficient in order to secure the safety of the country. That being so I think we deserve, my colleagues of the Admiralty deserve, some credit for the work which has been of a most difficult character. My right hon. Friend suggested that we shall not get real economy until the office of my distinguished Friend the Accountant-General (Sir Charles Walker) is made more important. I have so far heard no complaints addressed to me as to the position of Accountant-General. Under the late Financial Secretary we had a Committee sitting whose sole duty was to enquire into the Estimates as they came to them from the expert and technical branch That Committee examined them over and over again, and the result has been considerable reduction. I do not deny for a moment it is open to us to make further reductions, and certainly we will gladly do so so long as we are satisfied that those reductions can be made consistently with the safety of the country. The Navy is the greatest asset the country or the Empire have got, and while we are most anxious to secure reasonable economies we are determined to do nothing which shall reduce the Navy either in its numbers or in its efficiency below the margin we have laid down as being necessary for the security of the country.

I allowed the right hon. Gentleman to reply on this point, though it was rather out of order, as a general discussion on the office of Accountant-General does not arise in his Vote.

I simply wish to reply to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that he heard no criticism of the position of Accountant-General. I desire to remind him of the criticism which was made last year before the Public Accounts Committee, and when there is a suitable occasion I shall be prepared to raise the matter again.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. We are told that the Wireless Telegraphy Vote is transferred to page 59.

I was appealed to by my right hon. Friend, who was good enough to accept the answer I gave him. I referred to Sub-head O (2) of Vote 6. I was unable to get the necessary information, but I shall take care to have it on Report.

But we want the information. This practice by which a Minister lets an individual member know what is asked may be convenient, but it is the Committee which is discussing these points, and Members generally should have the answers. If hon. Members will turn to page 59 of the Estimates, which this Vote is supposed to be on, they will find that last year the Vote was £202,600, and this year it is £83,610. It is therefore ridiculous to say that the wireless telegraphy has been transferred to this Vote. As a matter of fact, there are six items in that Vote, five of which are for specific undertakings by the experimental stations and laboratories, and only one is for scientific research, and that one was £149,000 last year and is £32,795 this year, yet the First Lord tries to make this Committee believe that that is a suitable explanation to give to a question which is put. That kind of thing is no use in Committee, and unless one can get much more substantial answers than that, what is the use of discussion in Committee? I should like to put this further question with regard to the form of the Estimates. I do not know whether the First Lord or the Financial Secretary can tell me whether the numbers which appear in the margin are the same for 1919–20 as they are for 1920–21, because it is impossible to ascertain what the increases mean unless you have a comparative number of officials who are being paid salaries. For instance, if you take the staff engineers, at the Portsmouth Training School there were five estimated for in 1920–21; were there five in 1919–20? If one had a parallel column in the margin giving the number of men who were there last year, it would be much better for the Committee. There is a great extension in the increases paid to these men, but the increases paid to the higher officials are very much more substantial than those which are paid to subordinate staff. The subordinate clerical staff got £878 in 1919–20, and that is reduced to £420 this year. I do not see why in the left-hand margin we cannot have the comparative figures in every case. I want to ask again a question which I have not yet had answered. There is £98,660 provided for working parties in connection with naval barracks. I presume they are civilian working parties, and it is obvious that there might have been a use for those men during the War; but it seems ridiculous especially in view of the fact that the sailor is universally described as the handyman, to have an increase in these working parties this year. Unless we can get some satisfactory answer to this kind of question, it will be imperative to move a reduction of the Vote.

I can only repeat what I said before when I explained, with regard to working parties, that it is obvious that it will be impossible for me to be able to give the details of what these parties have been engaged upon, but, as I said, I shall be glad to supply any details which may be required when I have ascertained them. We are using pensioners and civilians for work in connection with the barracks. So far was the figures are concerned in the parallel columns, these Estimates have been prepared in exactly the same way as in the past, and I cannot see that it would really help very much to put down another column giving the comparative figures for last year, because it is easy to ascertain them by turning them up. In regard to the wireless telegraphy staff, I would ask my hon. Friend to be content with the answer that has satisfied the hon. and gallant Member for Ilkeston (Major-General Seely). It is obvious there has been a transfer in the Vote, and we will make close inquiries to find out exactly what vote it has been transferred to, and we will be quite ready to give the fullest possible information on report.

I would like to ask how it can be that it has been transferred to the Vote mentioned by the First Lord.

Perhaps it will be pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman that it cannot be transferred to that particular Vote, because the reduction there is so large. It would probably be well, instead of only writing to me personally, as so many hon. Members on this side take an interest in the question, if in some way the information were made public both before the Report stage and on the Report stage. I would suggest that in some way, either in reply to a question or otherwise, some announcemen should be made which would reply to my question.

It is very important that the Committee should have the information which has been asked for. With regard to the method of presenting the Estimates to the Committee, if we have a marginal column showing the actual numbers employed for 1920–21, it ceases to have any relevance when we are considering the amount expended in another year, and I would suggest to my hon. and gallant Friend that he should represent to the Admiralty that when these Estimates are made up again a different method of presenting them should be adopted.

I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by ÂŁ50,000. The Government themselves decided which Votes should be taken to-day, and they must not complain if we ask them to explain the Votes they have put down.

I gladly acknowledge the courtesy that is always shown by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and also, if I may say so, the wonderful grasp of details which he has shown of a task he has only recently tackled, but a very important point has been raised by a question. This wireless item has disappeared from Vote 4 and appears to have been transferred to another Vote, but nobody can tell us to which Vote it has been transferred. Perhaps the best thing would be for the Minister in charge to postpone this Vote until he can give the desired information.

I think the point which arises has been answered by my right hon. Friend the First Lord; the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who asked the question was satisfied with the reply, and my right hon. Friend asked him to accept that whilst close inquiries are being made. I will see that a question is put down bearing on this point and the fullest information given.

It is very hard to contend against the obvious willingness of the hon. and gallant Gentleman to assist us. At the same time, wireless telegraphy is one of the most important questions we can discuss, and in the circumstances I would urge him to withdraw the Vote and deal with this item when the information is forthcoming.

I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman will find the wireless telegraphy staff has been absorbed in the signal school, Portsmouth.

I am very glad to hear that. We understand now that the Signal School, Portsmouth, includes the items; that is to say, they are now employing naval men on the same service. In the year 1914–15 the Vote for Civilians employed on Fleet Services was £177,000, roughly. Now, in a, year of peace, with the fleet of the greatest enemy naval Power at the bottom of the sea, this item has risen to £504,000. It is obviously our duty to point out this large increase, the figure for this year even being £8,000 more than it was last year. The Minister said we must state what items should be reduced. That is not our job. We are not technicians in this House. All we can say is that you have to cut down. The right hon. Gentleman, I should imagine, must say to the Admiralty, "That is as much as you can have," and the Admiralty in their turn must say to each Department, "You must not exceed a given amount." But it is impossible for us in Committee to take item by item and to say this is too much, or that is too little. Our constitution is not so framed that we can deal with all these details, and have the technical knowledge required to suggest possible reduction. But that does not prevent us from asking for information, which we are quite entitled to have, and with which we are met very well. It is not sufficient to say that we must maintain the most powerful Navy in the world: we are entitled to ask for information, under these technical items, which we think necessary or desirable, and I am sure when we do so we receive courtesy and the information required from Ministers in charge of the Vote. I will not say anything about the Mining School, because the hon. Gentleman has dealt with that. I assume, of course, that the sort of work they are doing at the Mining School will be the development of such things as depth charges, which some of us amateurs came across in the course of the War.

Of course, I perfectly well understand that the opinions of amateurs are not of great value, but, at the same time, those of us who served during the War had an opportunity of bringing to bear on some of these problems a fresh mind, and I must say the question of signalling is one of the most interesting which we came across. The ingrained obscurantism reacting on the mind of the Regular officer on the subject of signalling was really one of the most despairing things anyone ever met with. I was reading an article by Mr. Hurd in the "Daily Telegraph," in which he gave a quotation from an Admiral in Nelson's time about the flag code of that time, and he wrote to another Admiral much to this effect: "My dear fellow,—This flag business, which has been given a fair trial, has been found to be a complete failure, and had better be dropped "That is the flag signalling which is now, of course, in universal use. The same sort of point of view is to be found in dealing with a newer method of signalling. With regard to wireless telegraphy, there is the idea that the visible is very much preferable to the invisible. We find it in the Army. The general officers can see nothing but the semaphore and the lamp. This passion for using lamps and semaphore signalling is also to be found in the Navy. Wireless telegraphy, however, I suppose, and hope, will in time supersede them all.

What is being done to train jointly the Air Force as signallers with the Navy? During the War I used to do a good deal of signalling from the air to ships, and one of the greatest difficulties we had was that we never got operators in the ships who were trained with the Air Force people. We were amateurs, and they were better trained, but still there is a certain harmony to be struck between the two persons, the one sending and the other receiving; and very often in spotting, and jobs of that kind, where we had to signal back to ships, we could not get replies. In one case a ship had to reply by lamp, which could not be seen at any distance owing to the funnel, or some sort of obstruction in the line of sight. If we had had at that small station a proper system of co-ordination between the wireless staffs in the ships and the wireless staffs in the aeroplanes, we could have done very much better work than we were doing at that time. Therefore I suggest that this is an opportunity for the Admiralty to explain to us whether there is any system of interchange between the officers who do the signalling in the air and the officers who do it in the ships. It seems to me you ought to have one code and a complete interchange between all the three services. On one occasion we sent a message to a ship, and it had to be decoded three times from the time it was sent and received at General Headquarters, and they took from 12 o'clock in the day to 8 or 10 o'clock at night. It is a great encumbrance to good work. My own idea is that this Signal School should have some close relation with the Signal School in the Air Service, and possibly with the Signal School at Yarmouth. I should be glad to be told whether any of these people who are trained under Sub-head A are Air Force people, whether there is any common code, and whether any of the features which should be common in order to ensure smooth working are actually insisted upon. As regards the other general point, I say again what I said at first, that the Vote should not be so much greater than it was the year before the War. There must be something wrong. It is inconceivable that only £177,000 was wanted in 1914–15 and £504,000 is wanted for the same service to-day, and on that account I beg to move a reduction of £50,000 in the Vote, not in criticism of the items to which I have referred, but in general criticism of the magnitude of the Vote itself.

I want to raise a comparatively small point again, namely, the item for Ferry Steamers and Fleet Service Tugs. Last year the expenditure on that item was 280,000; this year it is ÂŁ99,380. What the layman cannot understand is why nearly two years after the War the expenditure on this particular item should not be much smaller than it was last year. I do not think any rise in wages explains it. I think this is a service in which there ought to be a gradual reduction.

I entirely disagree with the views expressed by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) about this vote. One reason for the increase in this Vote is that wireless telegraphy is included in the vote, and certainly it was not included in the Votes before the War. We have heard a great deal on the subject of economy during the last few weeks. There is an enormous amount of uninformed criticism. The most absurd statements are made about the necessity of cutting down various services without any real consideration of what those services are. This is a case in point. If there is any one service which ought to be maintained and increased it is this training and scientific service. We suffered very much from insufficient preparations before the War for this very work. We lost hundreds of millions of pounds during the War by reason of the cheese-paring that went on on these particular Votes. I will give one instance. There was an application shortly before the War to put wireless into our submarines. Twenty thousand pounds was the estimated cost, and it was refused, so that at the outbreak of the War we had not a submarine with wireless in it.

I am not objecting to the supply of wireless to submarines—very far from it. I move no reduction on that. It is not included in this Vote.

But the comparison has been made of ÂŁ177,000 with ÂŁ504,000 in this particular Vote. We know these services were very much starved before the War, and what we require now is a comparatively small amount of money spent on these training and scientific services. They are the most productive expenditure of any expenditure that is voted in this House. Training and scientific work pays in all these matters of warfare. In all these scientific services we were behind Germany at the beginning of the War, and we suffered for it heavily. We ought to take the lesson to heart and not cut down these very important Services at this particular time. I suppose I would not be in order in speaking on the particular vote referred to by the First Lord of the Admiralty, Vote 6, but I trust it will not be cut down too much. May I express the hope that the Committee will not accept a reduction of this vote?

I only rise to make one comment on the remarks of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and that is to deny most emphatically that in scientific training we were behind he Germans before the War. It is a gross libel on the officers who devoted themselves to work in preparation for naval fighting, and I hope the Committee will persist in this reduction, for I do not think the expenditure is justified from the point of view of national finance. The Navy was ready at the beginning of the War, and will be ready at the beginning of the next war, if it ever takes place.

It is not necessary for me to say any more in regard to the Amendment, except that the hon. and gallant Gentleman might have chosen another Vote.

Rather than this one! My hon and gallant Friend below the gangway has perhaps put the case as well as anyone could put it for maintenance of research work in order to meet any requirements of the future, to establish our schools of scientific instruction, and whatever else in that direction may later be necessary. The question of signalling and so forth in co-operation with one of the other services is, as a matter of fact, to be debated by a Joint Committee, but there is nothing to prevent us at the present moment taking our own position—that is the Admiralty position—and making it perfectly secure, so far as scientific instruction is concerned. Therefore, I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press his Amendment.

Not at present. From time to time, however, things come up, and it will be possible perhaps to say something more. That really is one reason for keeping Vote 12 open in order that any question of policy can be brought forward on the salary of my right hon. Friend the First Lord. It does not close down any discussion of policy which my hon. Friend wants. In regard to the point raised in respect to the ferry steamer service, it is natural that these charges should increase owing to the large numbers being demobilised. These impose a greater charge. It is quite obvious also that prices have gone up, and that makes for still higher charges.

I am concerned about this wireless telegraphy. The answer we got from the First Lord was that the item was transferred to Vote O on page 59. Then my hon. and gallant Friend the Financial Secretary said it was indicated in the signalling items, and he quoted them. If one looks at the items we see it is not there. He will see that in 1919–20 10 men got £3,000 and now get £6,000. The explanation is that these 10 men have been put on a minimum of £600 and get for this year £6,000. If my right hon. Friend will look down the columns he will see that that is the ex- planation of his own estimate. There fore, after all the time we have spent on discussion, neither my right hon. Friend nor we knew what has become of the wireless telegraphy. This become of the wireless telegraphy. This is an injustice to certain members of the Committee who have already left the House. My right hon. And gallant Friend (Major-General Seely) was not allowed to discuss this question of wireless telegraphy, because it was not on this Vote, but, as it was said, had been transferred to Vote O He has gone. We might have had the benefit of his skilled criticism of this the benefit of his skilled criticism of this particular sum. We were told it was included in the Signal School, Portsmouth. Neither the First Lord nor the Financial Secretary took any credit for getting the benefit of this Vote which they did not explain; which they did not understand, which we do not understand, and which nobody understands. It is not reasonable in these circumstances to fall in with the suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith and withdraw this Vote for the present. If that is r of done, I feel the only thing we can do is to divide as a protest against the way the Committee is treated in these matters I see my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long) indicates that he thinks a Division had better take place. I have known him for many years, but I never knew him come down to the House so badly equipped to answer questions as to-day. I defy him to find this in his Estimates.

Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding ÂŁ454,500, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 35; Noes, 161.

Division No. 119.]

AYES.

[6.55 p.m.

Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D.

Hartshorn, Vernon

Royce, William Stapleton

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Briant, Frank

Holmes, J. Stanley

Spoor, B. G.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Swan, J. E.

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Lawson, John J.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)

Tootill, Robert

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Mills, John Edmund

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Galbraith, Samuel

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)

Rattan, Peter Wilson

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Grundy, T. W.

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

Mr. G. Thorne and Mr. Hogge.

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Robertson, John

NOES.

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B.S.

Courthope, Major George L.

Hinds, John

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Astor, Viscountess

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Atkey, A. R.

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Baird, John Lawrence

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hudson, R. M.

Baldwin, Stanley

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Barnett, Major R. W.

Dawes, Commander

Jephcott, A.R.

Barnston, Major Harry

Donald, Thompson

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Barrand, A. R.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey)

Barrie, Charles Coupar

Edge, Captain William

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Benn, Coin. Ian H. (Greenwich)

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Bethell, Sir John Henry

Falcon, Captain Michael

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Betterton, Henry B.

Faille, Major Sir Bertram G.

Lindsay, William Arthur

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Foreman, Henry

Lloyd-Greame, Mojor Sir P.

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Forrest, Walter

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Bowles, Colonel H. F.

Gilbert, James Daniel

Lorden, John William

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Glyn, Major Ralph

Lynn, R. J.

Breese, Major Charles E.

Gott, Sir R. Park

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

M'Micking, Major Gilbert

Brown, Captain D. C.

Gregory, Holman

Maddocks, Henry

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Greig, Colonel James William

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Carr, W. Theodore

Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro')

Martin, Captain A. E.

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Mitchell, William Lane

Casey, T. W.

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Moles, Thomas

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

Child, Lieut.-Colonel Sir H ill

Hallwood, Augustine

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Morison, Thomas Brash

Cockerill, Lieut.-Colonel G. K.

Haslam, Lewis

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

Colvin, Lieut.-Colonel Richard Beale

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Mount, William Arthur

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Murray, Lt.-Col. Hon. A. (Aberdeen)

Neal, Arthur

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell (Maryhill)

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Rose, Frank H.

Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H.

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood)

White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Whitla, Sir William

Palmer, Lieut.-Colonel G. L.

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavintock)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange)

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Seddon, J. A.

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Percy, Charles

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Wolmer, Viscount

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Pratt, John William

Stewart, Gershom

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Sugden, W. H.

Younger, Sir George

Purchase, H. G.

Sutherland, Sir William

Rankin, Captain James S.

Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Taylor, J.

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. James

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor- (Barnstaple)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Parker.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Educational Services

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding ÂŁ430,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Educational Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."

7.0 P.M.

This is the Vote upon which I do not think my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, of my hon. and gallant Friend need fear the result of a division. Naturally, there is no more important service which can be rendered to the men of the Navy and their education. It is a costly service amounting to a little short of ÂŁ4 per head, but what I am anxious to press upon the Government in connection with this service is that it is of immense importance, owing to the ravages of war, that the men in all the fighting services should, while they are within the ambit of this service, as far as it can possibly be, trained for their return to civil ranks once again. In the case of the Navy one appreciates that the position is not quite the same as in the Army, because practically we have long service in the Navy.

I understand that in the Navy there is a large number of men who take their discharge about 30 years of age, while others stay on to complete their full term in order to get the full pension. At 30 years of age men are badly wanted in civilian ranks in every department of our social activities, and therefore in these Estimates I am glad to note that there is considerable evidence that the Admiralty is aware of the need which I have just indicated. I sincerely trust that those responsible for the education and training of the men in the Navy will Lear that point more fully in mind than they have hitherto done. It was the practice to do this in pre-war days, but the need is intensified a hundred-fold since the War. There will be a large number of men at 30, and nowadays it is the duty of every man to reckon himself young for the purpose of discharging his duty in every civilian walk of life, because there is to be no real national appreciation of the fact that we have lost at least, counting dead and de-vitalised, 1,500,000 of the very best of our young men.

In all the services, and in the one before us at the present time, the urgent national need of the trained men when discharged from the service is of very great and pressing importance. I daresay some other hon. Members, who are much more qualified than I am, will deal with some other items in this Vote, but I wish to express my gratification with the item relating to the expenses of training naval officers at Cambridge. During the War naturally there was a large number of young officers who lost the last two or three years of their training at the university, and had to devote the whole of their time and attention to actual fighting, and were thereby deprived of that intellectual training which has been so distinguished a mark of the later years in the training of naval officers. I understand that at the request of the Admiralty, the University of Cambridge very gladly consented to make every possible arrangement in their power for the admission to the university of as large a number of young officers as possible, in order that they should continue their training, or take up the training they had been deprived of owing to the needs of the War. We should be glad to hear from my right hon. Friend how that training is proceeding and of all the money which is given by this particular Vote, the Committee will, I am sure, be most willing to grant any reasonable demand the Admiralty make for carrying on what is so very urgently needed for these young officers.

Nothing can be more apparent as the result of the War that it was not the very highly specialised man who, in the end, we had to depend upon, but it was the man who was trained all round, who had an educational and a moral training, who brought to bear in the War not only the physical, but the ethical side of his being. I cannot imagine a more admirable action on the part of the Admiralty than this particular question. Of course, what I have said on general principles applies with equal weight to the younger ratings, or what I may call the lower deck ratings of the Navy, because under the new scheme which has been developed by the First Lord of the Admiralty there is a change which we all welcome, and that is an open door at last for the lower deck to attain commissioned rank. If this educational system is properly developed, these young seamen of eighteen and upwards would be able to take their chance much more readily and efficiently than if they did not receive a proper system of education. The opportunities which I hope have been granted to the young officers at Cambridge will, I am fully confident, be reflected as far as the young seamen are concerned. The great ideal of every service, be it civilian or fighting, should be that the best brains combined with the highest character should have open to it the highest rank, and on those general principles I welcome very heartily the extension of the Naval educational system which is shown in this Vote.

With reference to what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, it is admirable both for the young Naval officers who were at Cambridge and the new influence at the university. I would remind the right hon. Gentleman, however, that there is a dark lining to the silver cloud which is worth while bearing in mind from the point of view of the Admiralty, and it is that there is overcrowding in regard to accommodation at the university on account of those proceeding from schools into the various professions, and in so far as accommodation is occupied for the purposes referred to by my right hon. Friend, it is not available for these other purposes.

I want to know if any word can be said to relieve a not unnatural apprehension as to the expensive system of training at the special college at Dartmouth, where there seems to be a very puzzling system. We have the entry through Dartmouth and the entry through the public schools. I do not think this Committee will be able to argue out the merits of those two systems, and I want to know, why should there be a double system at all? The Dartmouth system is expensive to the country, and the system of entry through the public schools is much cheaper. In this matter the one consideration is to obtain the best possible material for the Service. I imagine that the Admiralty must, by now, have made up their minds from which source the better raw material has been obtained, and if that is so, why do they not obtain the whole of their supplies from that source? Either the public school entries are as good or better raw material than the Dartmouth entries, and in that case all entries should come from that source, or, on the other hand, the public school entries are not as good as the Dartmouth entries, and in that case it is impossible to justify taking entries from public schools at all.

Let me refer to one other point in this connection. A very cordial welcome, in which I certainly venture to join, has been extended to the new rule of promotion for the lower deck. But other extensions might be carefully considered in the direction of enabling entrance for promotion to be made at an earlier age. I believe that would effect an important change. There is plenty of raw material available. Nobody acquainted with Naval establishments will deny that. Some of these boys will ultimately be promoted from the lower deck, and surely it is possible to select the right kind of boy at an earlier age. The advantage is obvious. Without the change suggested, the boy's education is dissimilar to that of his brother officers, and promotion at a lower age would bring him more on an equality with them. I would like further to ask if any information can be vouchsafed as to the future policy of the Admiralty regarding the method of selection of officers of the Royal Naval Staff College. I do not want to criticise the method adopted hitherto. The College has only just been started, and it should be remembered that Rome was not built in a day. But this is a matter of vital importance. Everyone will agree that the future prosperity of the Davy is bound up with the success of the Staff College, and the success of that College depends largely on the method of selection. It is a difficult matter to find the right officers for staff officers. A distinguished officer is not always the right man for the Staff College. This is not a matter on which an amateur can possibly hope to make any useful suggestion, but one can draw attention to the fact that, in the past, before the War, the selections were made in a somewhat haphazard fashion, and I hope we may hear from the First Lord some indication that there will be a new policy adopted in this matter.

I should like to draw the attention of the Committee to the position of the Naval Schoolmasters. Until quite recently these officers were badly treated. I explained on a previous occasion that they were the only warrant officers who did not get the pay of their rank. That position has been ameliorated to some extent by the First Lord, and the schoolmasters are extremely grateful to him for what he has done. But the position is not altogether satisfactory as yet. The schoolmaster is an officer who comes in with qualifications already declared, and in this respect he is something like a surgeon or a naval instructor. He obtains his qualifications outside, and does not have to acquire his knowledge in the Service. But he is a very important officer, because he has to train the lower deck, and in these days, when they are so scientific in the Navy, it is essential that the services of men with the highest educational attainments should be secured, and that, when they are secured, they should be treated on the most liberal basis. That hitherto has not been done. Recently there has been some improvement, but still schoolmasters are not in the position they ought to be.

The schoolmaster may more nearly be compared with naval instructors. Both classes have to possess certain educational qualifications on entry. Both have to have had teaching experience. In each case the appointment is "acting temporarily." A course has to be undertaken for instruction in subjects specially adapted to service requirements, and, finally, failure to pass the qualifying examination may entail discharge. Whereas, in the case of the instructor branch, the commission on qualifying is dated back to the date of his acting appointment, an officer of the schoolmaster branch is deprived of his first six months of seniority in the service, which is not allowed to count for purposes of pay or pension. Again, officers of the instructor branch may, subject to a satisfactory record, be promoted to lieut.-commander after eight years service, and commander after 16 years, whereas the schoolmaster has to go 20 years before getting his first step, which, in a great many cases, will be his last. The pay of the instructor officer on entry is more than that of his brother officer of equivalent rank and seniority. The pay of the schoolmaster officer on entry is 9s. 6d. per day, i.e., 5s. 6d. per day less than his brother officer of equivalent rank and seniority. I want to direct my hon. Friend's attention to these inequalities, and suggest that they are quite unfair to an important branch of the service like the schoolmasters, who ought not to be treated differently to any other branch holding a similar position. I think my hon. Friend will find on inquiry that they are very unfairly treated, and although the Admiralty no doubt desire to bring them up to a proper standard, yet so far nothing has been done, despite the promises made in this House that consideration should be given to the matter.

I believe the Admiralty have had very great trouble in getting schoolmasters for the Navy. The schoolmaster is, of course, a qualified man. He has to pass a stiff examination, and in that sense he is an expert in his business. Therefore, it is only right and fair that he should be treated properly. But recently, in consequence of the unfair way in which these men were treated, the Admiralty found it necessary to fill their places in another way, and certain vacancies were advertised. I believe I am right in saying there were very few responses, and the result was the Admiralty sought the assistance of the dockyard apprentices in order to fill the positions of schoolmasters in the Navy. We have nothing but praise for the dockyard apprentices. They are very admirable in their way, and no doubt highly trained for their particular position, but they are not schoolmasters in the proper sense of the term. I do suggest that the schoolmasters have not been treated as they should have been, and I would impress upon my hon. Friend the desirability of giving full consider ation to their case, for I am sure that nothing but good results will follow his so doing.

I have a few remarks to make on the educational question. When the Estimates came up for general discussion on a previous occasion, I referred to the question of the Naval Staff College at Greenwich and suggested that its position was unsuitable and that it would be far better to have it near Camberley. Everybody who has studied this subject will agree as to the desirability of having the three training staff establishments in close contact with each other. The First Lord on the occasion to which I refer gave very little hope of making a transfer. He said the subject had been carefully considered. Since then there have been some interesting discussions in this House on the question of defence, and it has been pointed out by the Minister for War that it is hoped gradually to produce a combined staff, with interchangeable duties and interchangeable training, and thus get a certain number of officers trained in the higher staff work of both Services. I venture therefore again respectfully to press on the right hon. Gentleman the extreme desirability, if possible, of having the work of the Naval Staff College carried out, not at Greenwich, but near Camberley. May I reinforce what has been said by a previous speaker as to the method of choosing staff officers? By some lucky chance I was chosen before the War, and this enables me to speak without prejudice. Undoubtedly there was a lack of care in choosing some of the original officers. I make that point against myself, in order that nobody else shall make it. As my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Commander Hilton Young) has said, the qualities for a first-rate staff officer are not always those of the first-rate executive officer or of the specialist. I think that in many cases the officers who make the finest staff officers are those whose characteristics are such that they are not in the highest favour with senior officers at sea. They are men of independence, in whom, possibly, the art of diplomacy has not been born, and they are not those who would be chosen at once by senior officers at sea if the whole selection were left to them. I hope the First Lord will be able to assure us that great care is being taken in this matter, and that the selection of staff officers is not left only to senior officers at sea. These young officers should be watched from the time they enter the Navy, reports should be called for as to whether they are likely to make good staff officers in the future, and the dossier of each officer should be used as a check on the recommendations from sea. Otherwise you would have some young gentleman from one of the Fleets, who has managed by good luck to come into close touch with his flag officer, and to make himself popular, getting himself recommended as a staff officer, when he might be totally unfitted for that important work.

I should like to ask whether it is not a fact that Osborne is being wound up, and is not any longer to be a training college for cadets. If that be so, why are we asked to vote ÂŁ98,000 for it this year, and why is a full staff allowed for in the Estimates, with full allowances and pay? As the First Lord explained, the number of cadets is being reduced, and it seems a pity that we should not rid ourselves of this expense. Anything spent on Osborne is really wasted, and, unless there is a good reason, I think that expenditure should have been avoided. I should like again to put in a plea for a later entry of officers. It would be a saving of money, and my own view, which, I believe, is supported by many officers at sea, is that the later entry is on the whole the best. The hon. and gallant Member for Norwich (Lieut.-Commander Hilton Young) said that the Admiralty by this time should have decided which was the best method of entry. I should like to endorse his remarks. From the point of view both of economy and of results, even keeping Dartmouth as the principal naval college for cadets, I think it would pay us if the age of entry in the future could be raised. The subject is a very large one, but I hope Lord Fisher's decision in the past as to the early system does not mean that the subject cannot be reopened. The experience during the War with special cadets was extremely valuable. I hope that the college at Dartmouth will be the only college for cadets, though I do not suggest that it should be the sole means of entry, because I hope the system of promotion from the lower deck will be extended, and that most of those lads will be included in the splendid course which the young officers get. I hope, however, that the age will be raised, so as to give us the advantages of the better physique and better general knowledge which the older lads possess.

:I should like to deal with these educational questions while they are fresh in the minds of the Committee, and to say how much I appreciate the sympathetic and helpful spirit in which this Vote has been met. The recent departure of securing the reception at Cambridge of a certain number of Naval officers has abundantly justified itself. It is really controlled by the limits of accommodation, and, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Norwich said, there is already in the university a great deal of over-crowding. The head of one of the Cambridge colleges told me the other day that many members of their teaching and other staffs have to come in from a long distance outside the town. The university, therefore, cannot be expected to do much more at present than the authorities are doing. The Navy and the Admiralty, and also the country, owe a great debt of gratitude to the authorities of Cambridge University for the generous way in which they have met our appeal, and received a considerable number of Naval officers as undergraduates. I think that my right hon. Friend opposite (Sir D. Maclean) did not ask any special question, but merely wanted to be assured that we are dealing with the matter in a sympathetic way, and were hoping to increase the numbers. My hon. and gallant Friends, the Members for Norwich and for Central Hull, both dealt with Dartmouth and with the direct entry system and the question of boy entry. The hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) asked why, if we were bringing Osborne to an end, there should be any Vote for Osborne this year? The proposal of the Board of Admiralty is that Osborne shall be closed next year. It has to go on, certainly, for 12 months, and we have to make provision for the cadets who are now there. I am bound to tell the Committee that, although we have come to this decision, in which I entirely concur, we are faced with considerable difficulties at Dartmouth. There are difficulties of housing for the extra teachers and instructors, and there is a very serious question as to accommodation for playgrounds and athletics in the immediate neighbourhood. Until these questions are solved, it will be impossible to get rid of all the expense in respect of Osborne. I regret that Osborne, which we owe to the generosity of the late Sovereign, has to be closed, but I am convinced that the policy of the Admiralty must be to maintain one educational establishment, and only one. The hon. and gallant Member for Norwich (Lieut.-Commander Hilton Young) asked whether the Admiralty have not made up their minds as between the Naval educational establishments and entry from the public schools. It is not unnatural that my own inclination should be towards the public school system. I am an old public school boy myself, and am a great believer in the material which the public schools turn out. All the evidence I have received from Naval officers up to the present points to the fact that those who entered the service through the public schools have turned out most admirably, and have proved to be most excellent officers and in every way to justify that form of entry. At the same time it is fair to say that there is also a great deal of evidence in favour of the Naval College. The Admiralty at present have no intention of abolishing the Naval college system, and, so long as we have an institution like Osborne or Dartmouth, or the one college which is to be substituted for the two, we are able to confer some advantages upon the sons of Naval officers, whose condition is not as prosperous as they would wish it to be. For that reason, in particular, I am glad that these Naval establishments exist, for they provide for at all events a certain number of lads who otherwise might have great difficulty in getting into the Navy. Again, owing to a varity of causes, our public schools are to-day blocked up to their utmost capacity, and not only for to-day, but for a considerable time ahead. If we were to close a great educational establishment like the Naval College of the future at Dartmouth, and were to be entirely dependent upon the ordinary provision of the public schools, I believe that the difficulties of securing education for the young fellows would be insuperable until the present pressure has become relaxed. We do not want to declare that the entry through the public schools is so much better than the other that we ought to abandon the other. We believe it to be thoroughly good and thoroughly justified, but Osborne and Darmouth have found thousands of splendid Naval officers, and it would be wrong, at all events in the circumstances to which I have referred, to bring the Naval College to an end.

The hon. and gallant Member for Norwich also asked about selection for the Staff College at Greenwich. I was not aware that there had been any complaints; none have reached me since I have been First Lord. I cannot say whether, in the time of the hon. and gallant Member for Hull, the selections were wisly or unwisely made. As the only example he presents to the Committee is that of himself, I should think they were very wisely made. He did not give us any cases demonstrating the unwisdom of the authorities of those days, and, so far as the system exists at present, all I can say is that the kind of case to which he referred really does not exist. The ultimate selection of these candidates depends upon the First Lord, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that nothing could be more careful and strict than the attempts we make to find out all the characteristics of those who are anxious to go through the college. The hon. and gallants Member for Norwich suggested that an educational test of a totally different kind might be substituted; but, although I do not say a mistake is never made—in some instances reports may be misleading—if a young fellow succeeded in imposing upon his flag officer in the way suggested by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hull, he would have so many other tests applied to him that I do not think it would be possible for him in the long run to be selected. However, it the first I have heard of this special suggestion. I will go carefully into it, because it is a matter of vital importance. The staff officer of the future is essential to the Navy and a great deal of the success of the Navy must depend upon the staff officers, and therefore their selection ought, so far as it can possibly be, made to be free from legitimate criticism. I shall be very glad indeed most carefully to weigh the remarks of my hon. and gallant Friends, and I will discuss the matter with those who advise me at the Board of Admiralty, and if we think the time has come and the circumstances justify alteration, we will consider what form of alteration ought to be made, and I shall be very glad indeed if we decide on any change to take consultation with both my hon. and gallant Friends.

I should like the right hon. Gentleman to give us some information with regard to the educational scheme which is indicated in the very useful statement on the Naval Estimates, the perusal of which I commend to all hon. Members, with regard to promotion from the lower deck. How far are the educational schemes being shaped towards giving these young fellows the special educational opportunity of availing themselves of the new scheme for them to rise to Commissioned rank? Is there any thing in the educational scheme which gives them an exceptional opportunity of being trained for entry into the competitive scheme of selection which is contemplated? For instance, paragraph 38 says:

"A man on reaching the age of 21, provided he has satisfied the requirements of the Sea Selection Board and has passed"

—this is a very remarkable list of things he has to do—

"the seamanship examination for officer's rank, taken a first-class certificate in the special educational test, embracing mechanics, geometry, history, physics, and general subjects, will then be eligible for selection before the Admiralty Selection Board."

That list would have terrified me at any age of my educational development. What part of the new educational scheme of the Admiralty will be devoted to enabling these promising young lads to take the first steps towards qualifying themselves in this very wide range of subjects to take their place before the Sea Selection Board, by which means alone they can pass to officer rank?

I do not think we can do anything more than place at the disposal of these lads the excellent educational opportunities which are now placed at the disposal of everyone on the lower deck. I felt as the right hon. Gentleman feels, when I first heard of the tests to be applied, that they were horrifying in their difficulty. One only hopes when they are approached nearer they will not look quite so bad, even to me, who look at it from rather further off. We are really approaching this question of throwing open the commissioned ranks to the lower deck with, not only a genuine desire that it shall be successful, but with a steadfast determination to remove any obstacle likely to prevent the boys having this fair opportunity.

There only remains the question of the schoolmasters. I feel that they did labour under a very great injustice. A portion of that, at all events, has been removed, and there is still a branch of the question which is under discussion between the Treasury and ourselves. The schoolmasters' question is not one which can possibly be looked at solely from the individual schoolmaster's point of view. We ought not to approach it as a matter of justice to a particular class of officer. We want to get in the Navy the very best schoolmasters we can, so that we may offer to our lads a really good, sound education, and we shall not get the best schoolmasters unless we pay them properly and treat them justly. The hon. member for Central Portsmouth (Sir Thomas Bramsdon) always presents any case in which he is really interested with such conspicuous ability, such studied moderation, that he disarms opposition, and secures the most friendly consideration for any proposition which he advocates. The hon. Member referred to the case where we took 10 apprentices out of the yard and turned them into masters. It is quite true that they had not been to a training college; they had not been trained as teachers, but in each case they were selected after very careful personal inquiries, and they had done a certain amount of teaching work, not always of the same kind, but in a somewhat different form. Therefore they were not really apprentices taken raw from their apprentice work and suddenly transferred to teaching. It was an experiment made at a time when we were extremely short and when the pressure to find schoolmasters was very great. I entirely agree that, save in very exceptional cases. we ought to look for our schoolmasters to those who have gone through the expense and drudgery of training, and have received an education which fits them for this very important work, and that has been and will be the policy as a general rule. I am in entire sympathy with the hon. Gentleman in his desire that full justice shall be done to schoolmasters, and I entertain that, not only because I want to see schoolmasters properly treated, but because I believe it to be essential to the establishment of a really sound system of education.

The First Lord has given a most satisfactory answer with regard to the schoolmasters. I quite agree that we should not look at it from the personal point of view of the schoolmasters, but of the lads they have to teach, but they have been only half satisfied and there is still a certain amount of grievance left. There is nothing so fatal as to have people who have to teach the young with a grievance, because they have such an enormous opportunity of spreading their grievance, and I hope, from the point of view of the boys they have to teach, and of the Navy, the First Lord will press the Treasury. He cannot press it too hard. What are we going to do to give the boys a real chance? We have talked about Greenwich for the officers' sons, but a great many of the lower deck men's sons will never get a chance except for the teaching they get in the Navy, so as we cannot get colleges and schools for them, it is tremendously important that they should have the very best schoolmasters.

I take great interest in this question of the selection of men for the Staff College. It is rather analogous to the question of the selection of the higher division staff in public offices, and we want to get the very best men we can, and to have the best system of getting them. I have served in offices which have all three systems, the system of pure appointment, the system of pure examination and the system of combing selection with examination. The system of pure appointment was that by which I myself got appointed. I should not have been able under the pure examination system to have got appointed to the Education Office. The War Office higher staff was selected purely as the result of the Civil Service examination. In the Foreign Office there was a rather careful selection and a system of examination among the selected candidates. Undoubtedly, in so far as my experience went, the third system was the best. You cannot avoid making failures either under the system of pure selection or pure examination, but you can eliminate the chance of failure very much indeed if you combine the two systems. Of course there is the feeling that there is great scope for favouristism and family and other influences. It may be quite untrue that specially influential admirals have their favourites whom they wish to push on, but I believe it will be found in the long run necessary by the Admiralty in self-defence, in order to guard against any suspicion of that kind of thing, that when they have selected, by examining the reports made on officers, the very best young officers they can they should have on top of their selection some thing of the nature of an examination test so that there should be a further weeding out and combination of the two systems of selection and examination which has been adopted by the War Office and the Foreign Office, and also when because there is a combination of examination and selection. I am glad the First Lord undertakes to look into the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Lieut.-Commander Young) and others, and I think he will come to the conclusion that something in the nature of an examination test will be a good thing in regard to the selection of officers.

8.0 P.M.

I want to speak in a general way on this subject. I do not think the Admiralty have given any satisfactory assurance that the sons of poor parents can really get into the Navy on the same terms as the sons of the richer men. It is quite true that the First Lord's Memorandum does provide that young men who reach the age of 21 can, after having passed a certain educational test, be promoted from the ranks to commissions, but I think the real way is to throw the Navy, the Army, and the Air Force open to all classes of the community, and that when there is common entry there should be free play from the moment that that entry takes place. Someone promoted from the ranks, however clever he may be, never really stands on the same footing as an officer in a higher social position. It is very lamentable, but it is true. They say, "Oh, he is a ranker." The fact is that he does not stand exactly on the same footing, however much people may try to put him on the same footing. Anyone who has been in the Services knows this quite well. This is a very big democratic issue. We believe that in the three Services the officers should be drawn from all classes of society.

What guarantee is there that children of poor parents really can enter the Navy and become officers as easily—of course, we want boys with character and ability—as the sons of rich parents? One of the provisions of the Osborne scheme was that boys were brought in at the age of 12, whose education was very largely paid for. I thought it ought to be paid for entirely by the State, and that the boys should be drawn from all classes. That did not happen. I sat on three Interview Boards when I was at the Admiralty as a Private Secretary, and I know it was impossible to throw the net wide enough. Some boy was brought forward, but he had not been brought up exactly in the right atmosphere, and he was turned down. That is very undesirable. Whether overtly or covertly, it is very undesirable that any social barrier should interfere with entrance to the Service. It is very objectionable in itself and it is very harmful to the Service, for two reasons. The first reason is that, if we want the Service to be popular, we should throw it open to all ranks of society, and if we want the Service to be powerful we should draw on the ability which is available, and which is not confined to one class of society, but to all classes. To say that it is confined to the upper class of society is ridiculous. Many officers who have performed the most gallant service in the history of the British Navy have been brought from unexpected sources. When I say unexpected, I mean from that point of view.

When I raised this matter previously the First Lord was very sympathetic and said that the Board of Admiralty were most earnestly exploring every possible avenue with a view to seeing that this was done. What has been done? I understand that at present, roughly speaking, officers are drawn from boys who have been to public schools. A working man cannot afford to send his son to a public school; even if he has been to a public school he cannot afford to maintain him. The result is that you get this unfortunate barrier. I accepted what the First Lord said when he raised this question before, that the Admiralty was looking into it very carefully, and that they were very anxious that it should be done. We are thoroughly in earnest about this. We believe that on the general principles and in the interests of the Navy the door should be absolutely open to all classes. There was the difficulty of social distinctions between the engineers and the officer with the curl. We want to see that disappear entirely. Is it going to grow up again by re-establishing Keyham College? Although I cannot profess to follow all the latest developments of the policy of the Admiralty I would urge on the very general issue—and I hope I shall get some support from the Members of the Labour party—that I there should be the open door for all three services. If I am asked how I would attain that, my idea is that, from the I public elementary schools we should draw boys who are evidently cut out for the fighting services and that they should be I nominated by the council or by the headmasters of the school, and then selected and educated at the expense of the public and afterwards distributed between the services—the Admiralty, the Army and the Air Force, according to their particular preference. That would be an admirable idea. It would give unity of interest between the officers of the three services, which is very desirable. It would start friendships between officers of the three services which would assist very much in the inter-locking working and in the co-operation which is so important in wartime. It would also provide perfectly free selection from all classes of the community of those who would have the honour of serving His Majesty in one branch of the service.

The hon. and gallant Member wants to know what chance a boy of poor parents has of becoming an officer in the Navy. From what little I know of the Navy I would venture to give him this answer, that that boy has about as much chance of becoming an officer in the Navy as I have of getting into the Kingdom of Heaven.

I am not au fait with what goes on now, but I did make a special study of this matter some years ago and I will tell my hon. and gallant Friend what I found, and which I think prevails to a large extent now. I found that a boy went into Osborne at 13 years of age and that from the time of his entry and for four years afterwards his education costs his parents on the average £125 a year. I went into the Income Tax returns and found that parents who might be expected to be able to pay £125 in respect of their boys were about 3 per cent. of the community. Therefore that sort of entry is in direct conflict with the principle enunciated by the right hon. Gentleman who spoke first in this Debate, that we ought to ascertain where the best brains are to be found, and, having ascertained, give them a chance of getting up to the top of the tree. The hon. and gallant Member asks to be informed what has been done in the way of reforming Osborne. I cannot speak for this year, but I can inform him of the general tendency. The general tendency during the last few years has been—admitting that Lord Fisher's scheme is a failure, because it can only be done on that admission—that entries to Osborne and Dartmouth have been supplemented by drawing boys of from 17 to 18 from the public schools. I favour that course as against the other for two reasons, because when you draw boys from the public schools you draw them from a larger section of the community. I mean that the parents who manage to keep their boys at public schools form a larger section than that small and exclusive set who used to send their boys to Osborne and Dartmouth. I favour the infusion from the public schools rather than depending entirely upon Osborne and Dartmouth. I do not like the idea of taking boys of the tender ages of 12, 13, or 14 and training them from that early age to be entirely wedded to the Navy. We want men, of course, to be proud of the Navy, and we want men in the Navy to be efficient, and, as a rule, I think we have men at Osborne and Dartmouth who are efficient. But at the same time we do not want the Navy divorced from the civil community. We want the Navy to feel that it is being recruited all the time from those who know the actual everyday life of the common people of the country. For that further reason I am glad that there has been an infusion of the public school element for the last two or three years. But I agree with the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down that the right principle, if you are going at all to train men exclusively for the Navy or the Army or the Air Service as their life's work, is to take and train them all together and to give them all the same chance. But I would not take them at so early an age. The boy should have some of the rough and tumble of the ordinary life of the community, and you should not take him until he is 17 or 18, or something like that.

I quite agree with what the right hon. Gentleman is saying, but the point is, who is going to pay for it? us the poor man going to be able to pay for his son until he is seventeen or eighteen and give him the necessary education?

We are going through a process of evolution. I should say that the idea is that the State should pay for it, but meantime I am in favour of the idea of recruiting from the public schools, in addition to having those who have been sent to Osborne or Dartmouth. Reference has been made to the training of engineers and Lord Fisher's scheme. I believe that the Fisher scheme was based upon a principle of interchangeability which was not sound. It was said a little while ago that the men who distinguished themselves in this War has been what are called all-round men. I do not know what special services the speaker had in mind, but it does seem to me that scientific development requires not all-round men, but specialised men, and it is because Lord Fisher's was not specialised plan that I objected it. I think that it has broken down, and the fact that the special training of engineers has been resumed is a proof that it has broken down. The scheme was based on the principle of what was called interchangeability. That is to say, there is an idea that if an admiral got killed the engineer could take on his job on the bridge, or if a bullet went into the engine-room and the engineer was killed the admiral might go down and take charge of the engines. I do not think that that scheme was possible. You may train a man to be an engineer and at the same time give him a training in the elements of navigation and all the rest of it, but it is impossible that that man should be good for anything but a special branch, and that has been again, I think, the very reason why the scheme has not been a success. It is impossible to stuff a man's head with knowledge of gunnery, navigation, international law and engineering, and then turn to one particular course and work him at it and bring him back into another after a few years spent in that way. There is another matter as to the training of boy artificers—

It being a quarter-past Eight of the Clock, and there being Private Business set down be the direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further Proceeding was postponed, without Question put.

Private Business

REDCAR URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL GAS BILL [By Order]

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Supply

Navy Estimates, 1920–21

Again considered in Committee.

[Sir E. Cornwall in the Chair.]

Education Services

Postponed Proceeding resumed on Question,

"That a sum, not exceeding ÂŁ430,300, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Expense of Educational Services which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."

Question again proposed. Debate resumed.

Before I say a word about boy artificers, I wish to endorse what was said by the hon. Gentleman opposite as to the need of making the provision for promotion a real one. There is no good in telling a man that he can be promoted to be an officer, unless you provide him with the necessary theoretical training. Therefore I have nothing but words of commendation for all that can be done in the Navy to train a man to get from one rating to another and a higher rating. But is it necessary to take boys of fifteen—I believe that is the age—as boy artificers? Here again you are getting the boy in the early formation period of his life. When you get a boy of fifteen and begin to train him for the Navy, whatever his rating may be, he becomes a man divorced from the ordinary interests of the ordinary civilian. For that reason I do not like the scheme of boy artificers. But there is another reason. You have no need to train boys for the artificer's rank of the Navy because you can get them without that. Prior to the boy ratings being introduced some ten or twelve years ago, you used to have the man who had served apprenticeship in the ordinary way, in the workshops of the country, presenting himself at from twenty-one to twenty-three years of age for entry as a mechanic, and I do not know why it was thought necessary to have a special branch of boy artificers trained in this way. They have cost a lot of money—I do not know how much—but it does seem to me that money spent in the training of these lads is money that might very well be saved, and that if the Navy availed itself of the opportunity of taking the young men of from twenty-one to twenty-three after they are trained, after the formative period of their lives, they would feel themselves members of the ordinary community and we would thereby get the Navy brought into touch with the ordinary civil population.

I would like to endorse very largely what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman. I do not wish to stand between the Committee and the Vote, but I am afraid that I put badly the two points which I tried to make before the First Lord spoke. I do not think the First Lord quite grasped what I was driving at owing to my bad expression. What I propose is this—and I hope that the Financial Secretary (Sir J. Craig) will take a note of it—Osborne is going to be shut up. I am heartily glad to hear it. It is a very unhealthy site and we have got to economise. Keep Dartmouth by all means—it is an excellent place—but send the boys there later. You then will get the public school boy, with all the advantages which that implies, and you open the door to the whole community. You would not limit the entry to it to one small narrow class. You would also get the lads who have a little of what the right hon. Gentleman calls the rough and tumble of ordinary life, and are more in contact with the civil population. Therefore I plead that the whole matter be examined. It cannot be done this year, but we have to make our educational plans two or three years ahead. I think the compromise I have suggested would be for the good of the service. With regard to the selection of staff officers, the First Lord apparently considered that I ought to have given the names of ill-chosen staff officers. Of course I did no such thing. I did not want to make charges against well-meaning officers who were possibly pitchforked into work for which they were not specially fitted. Moreover, some of them have paid the extreme penalty. In the first few classes chosen a few of the officers were of the flag lieutenant type. The flag lieutenant is not of necessity an officer who is going to make a good staff officer. He has excellent qualities as a flag lieutenant, no doubt, particularly social qualities, and so on, but the officers wanted for the staff course are people generally of a different type altogether. I am very glad that the First Lord is to have the matter looked into thoroughly again.

I want to speak, not with any technical experience of Naval matters, but on the broad question of education that has been raised. I am particularly interested in the entry and training of officers, because I have a boy whom I had contemplated entering for the Navy. I had not realised how early the age was at which a boy must enter, and consequently I found myself too late. To my own disappointment, and that of the boy, he was cut off from his career. That has given me a little interest in the matter, and I was anxious to find out upon what grounds so early an age was fixed. I thought it might possibly be for some technical reason, but on looking at the Statement on page 60, I do not find that set out at all. The reason, it seems, is not a technical reason at all, but is simply the fact that the age of entry is the age which coincides with that at which most boys leave the preparatory school and go to the public school. That raises a very large question. It really means that boys who are entering for the Navy finish general education at the age of about 131 or 14, and begin what is known as vocational training, that is to say, that at that very early age a beginning is made with the giving of a bias towards a certain form of life. I quite agree with the statement that this must have the effect of divorcing boys from a wider life and a more general acquaintance with affairs which would come to them if they pursued for three or four years longer the training to which boys of that class would probably proceed at a public school. The statement to which I have referred goes on to give the training which such a boy gets. It is only after 11 terms that he comes into actual contact with sea life. One cannot help feeling, when one sees how much subsequent time is spent upon his training, that at some period at least of that three and a half or four years some of the dogma might be remitted, and the boy be allowed to enter at a later age. I hope some further consideration will be given to the matter, and that some modification will be made in the rule.

I specially asked my right hon. Friend the First Lord to deal with this very important subject, because he was thoroughly familiar with the practice and had knowledge of what had been done since he took office, whereas it is impossible for me to give the Committee any detailed information as to the steps which have been taken. I am very glad to know that in the criticisms with regard to the dates at which boys enter Osborne and Dartmouth, and with regard to the system of education which is afforded there, no one has thrown out any suggestion that there has been any failure in the past to produce the best type of officer for the Navy. After all that the country has gone through and all that we owe to the Navy, it must be a great comfort to us' not to find any criticism of the system that has produced the splendid officers and men who manned the Fleet during the War. It is merely a question of a technical difficulty as to the proper age of entry. Several hon. Members who have spoken suggest that 13½ years is too young an age. It is quite obvious, when the whole system of education in this' country is based upon the preparatory school, followed immediately by the public school, that if you are to capture boys suitable for the Navy you must capture them before they enter public school life. As my right hon. Friend indicated in the White Paper and to the Committee to-day, a great many of the points raised were met, and there has been an endeavour to meet many of the difficulties which have been pointed out by hon. Members. I can assure the Committee my right hon. Friend and I will keep a careful eye on this whole question. I cannot myself at the moment say more than that the difficulties which lie in the way are difficulties' which are not insurmountable.

I do not think the hon. and gallant Gentleman was present when the First Lord referred to this question. If he reads his speech to-morrow I think he will see that he dealt with practically the whole of the matter to which he wishes to refer.

I very much regret I was not here during the whole of the First Lord's speech, but I was absent for as short a period as possible and I heard the concluding portion of his speech. If the hon. and gallant Baronet can give us a specific undertaking that before next year's Estimates are introduced, a scheme will be prepared under which a boy without any money or social influence will be put on a par with the boy with money and with social influence in entering this rank in the Navy, that will meet my point. We are told that there is ample promotion by the lower deck; but that is not the same thing. People from the lower deck at some advanced age receive a commission, and they do not have the opportunity of a career in the Navy as commissioned officers. What we want is that the poor boy should get an absolutely equal chance with the more fortunate boy to obtain entrance at an early age for training as an officer. Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman give that assurance? He shakes his head, I notice. If the First Lord in his speech has not met that point, what becomes of his promise that the Admiralty were exploring every avenue to get this done? It is a very big thing we are asking, but it is a matter which we most earnestly press.

I desire also to press on the Admiralty the desirability of making the avenue to commissions in the Navy as wide as possible, so that the poorest child in the land with capacity should have as fair a chance of becoming an officer of the Navy as any boy with rich parents. The whole speech of the hon. and gallant Gentleman seemed to be governed by the educational system in England. In Scotland, the State and the local rates pay for education up to the age of 17 or 18. A boy can go into a secondary school and be educated up to that standard, and I do not see why boys of that kind should not be allowed to enter the Navy if found suited for such a life. In Scotland to the boy in the ordinary schools the Navy is closed as an avenue of employment. We have been told of private and public schools, but in Scotland everybody goes to the ordinary board school and the ordinary technical school. The Duke of Sutherland and his brother for instance attended the ordinary board school. Boys from these schools of Scotland are admitted to the legal profession, the Ministry and, the most difficult profession of all, medicine, and surely they are capable of being made naval officers. The entry into the commissioned ranks of the Navy should be democratised as much as possible. You sometimes produce a fine paper plan, but there is some obstruction in the War Office or the Admiralty which prevents the boy of poor parents getting commissioned rank. I hope the Admiralty will remedy what is a grievance and also an injury to the nation, since the brains of our people are not sufficiently tapped for this service.

I wish to join with the other hon. Members in urging the democratisation of entry into the commissioned ranks of the Navy. In the Army the higher ranks are open to the private by the Army itself providing sufficient facilities in education to enable them to rise to the highest rank. What is being urged now is that the same system should be in operation in the Navy. In naval stories we read of powder monkeys becoming admirals, but that is not possible to-day. We find that that is all very good in fiction, but it does not hold good to-day. We want the Admiralty to bring that particular delight and ambition of the boy we read of in the naval stories into practice at the present time. It is not sufficient to say that a few selected and fortunate individuals who join the lower ranks of the Navy can be made commissioned officers, because, as the hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) pointed out, those commissions are given when the individuals have reached such a ripe old age that they are of very little service to the Admiralty or the country as officers. We want the lads to have the opportunities given them, so that in their early age they will be able to become commissioned officers. It is this system of keeping the higher ranks mainly as a preserve for a certain class of the community that gives to the Navy and the Army a certain prejudice in the minds of many people in the country. Personally, I look forward to the time when the League of Nations will prevent any nation having an Army or a Navy, but so long as we have them, let us have them as democratic as the House of Commons, where a man, by reason of the selection of the people outside, can be placed in what is con- sidered one of the most honourable positions in the country, whatever class of life he comes from. Let the same avenues be open to the individuals in the Navy. Give them an education in the Navy. Why riot allow the boys of humble parents who enter the Navy the facilities for education that you give to the others? Why not permit them to have the highest education possible? If you do that, I venture to suggest that, just as during the War you found that the lads who came from humble homes showed the same courage and unity of purpose as did the lads from the higher classes of society, so, if you give them the opportunity, they will show at least an equality of intellect.

I should not have risen but for a remark of the hon. Member who said that he looked to the secondary public schools as a source of supply of officers for the Navy. I am afraid he has forgotten the great development which has taken place in the public elementary schools of this country in recent years. I hold that every man with the necessary brains should have open to him every avenue of promotion. The days are past, in my judgment, when we should draw from one particular source only, not in the interests of the child, but of the State. If the boy is there with the necessary equipment, whether he be rich or poor, there should be no obstacle in the way of his promotion, and it appears to me that there is an obstacle at the very outset if the Navy look to one source of supply, forgetful of others which are open to them. There is a general belief in the country—and probably it is shared on the Treasury Bench—that the public elementary schoolboy leaves school at the age of 14, but I would remind the Committee that there has been in existence for the last seven or eight years an advanced form of public elementary school, called the central school, which is, in the eyes of many people, a thoroughly good secondary school, in many cases with an industrial bias, and I should have thought that was the very class of lad that you ought to secure as an officer in the Navy. There the lads are receiving, up to the age of 16 or 16½, a good general education during two-thirds of their time, and during one-third an education in technical subjects. They find occupation on leaving school in great business houses, factories, and other industrial concerns in the country, and I hope the doors of the Navy are not going to be closed to such men. It was the remark made that we must look to the public schools fed by the preparatory schools that caused me to rise. I want us to look to every school in the country.

Who were the lads who won commissions during the Great War? There were thousands of them who came from the public elementary schools, and many scores of them who came from these central schools, and forgot the date of their birth when they enlisted, and secured commissions before they had been more than a few weeks beyond the date at which they ought to have enlisted, lads from the central schools who go into the Army at 17, and are now walking the streets of London as captains or something higher. They were the poorest of the lads, and do let this Committee realise once and for all that the country is determined, in my judgment, that every occupation in the country shall be open to the people with the necessary mental qualifications, altogether apart from social influence or from the amount of money that they or their parents may happen to possess. We have suffered in the past from social influence; we have suffered in the past because we have drawn only from those who can afford to pay. I am perfectly certain that it will now pay the country to educate those who have the necessary mental capacity. It is because I wish to associate myself, as one interested in education, with the appeal that is made that the way should be open to the poorest child, and because I wish to protest against any Department of the State seeking to draw its recruits from any particular type of school that I have ventured to intervene. I have got an antiquated notion that no one ought to rise in this House unless he is prepared to add something of value to the Debate, and hence I usually keep still on Navy questions. I do not pretend to understand the Navy, but I think I may claim to know something about the education of children of 14, 16, and 18 years of age, and therefore I venture to enter my caveat against the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman.

In response to what the last hon. Member has said—and he is one of the best qualified Members of this Committee to speak on education matters —in paragraph 34 of the First Lord's statement occurs the phrase "to allow a certain number of public school and other boys coming into the Service at a later age." Can we have an assurance that the words "public school "include the central schools to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, and the other schools based on the public elementary school system of the country?

Two Scottish Members have referred to the entry of boys into the Navy from the Scottish board schools. I quite agree with them, but it is quite open to them to do so. They have only got to pass the preliminary examination, which is very simple, and they are quite eligible to enter the Navy. I would remind the Committee of two famous Scotsmen, Adam Duncan, who became Lord Camper-down, and Lord Dundonald; both of these probably received their education at the village school before entering the Navy, and both became celebrated Naval officers. As regards the age mentioned by my hon. Friend opposite (Major Gray), may I suggest to the First Lord that, with reference to the closing of Osborne and the retention of Dartmouth, it would relieve the congestion of Dartmouth very much if all the boys were entered there at the age at which they now leave Osborne, that is about 14 or 15, and that would open it to the class of boy mentioned by the hon. Member opposite. It is much better to have the one source of supply through Dartmouth than to have the second source, the public school boys coming in at 17 or 18, which is rather too late. They must have some sea service before getting a commission, and there is no reason why the board school boys of Scotland should not enter at 14 or 15 years of age, through Dartmouth.

Question put, and agreed to.

Scientific Services

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding ÂŁ302,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Scientific Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."

I should like to ask my right hon. Friend to consider whether the Naval museum, Royal Naval College, Greenwich, could not with advantage be transferred to the Imperial War Museum. This is a very good little museum, and has some fine specimens, but I think the nation would much prefer to have all these war exhibits at one institution. We are all aiming at making the War Museum a great success, and this little museum might very well be transferred there. I think you would find a saving of money. It is true it would be small, but we are out for economy even on small items.

I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can add anything to the very interesting explanatory Memorandum as to the establishment of the new scientific service. It is unanimously admitted that it was one of the great needs of the Naval establishments before the War, and nothing could prove that more conclusively than the extraordinary expedients which had to be adopted during the War. When we come to look at the new establishments suggested, or already, apparently, set on foot, according to the Memorandum, certainly there is very much to welcome, and much that is an enormous improvement on anything that has gone before; but it is impossible not to have some misgiving. There is to be a Director of Scientific Research, which is an admirable step in itself, but, after all, he will be only a man sitting in an office. He will have a staff, no doubt, but no laboratories, and so on. The next new item is to be the Naval Institute. That, again, is a perfectly admirable step in itself, but what we find particularly insisted upon in this Memorandum as to this Institute is that it is to be a small one. It is to be able to conduct on its premises highly specialised scientific forms of inquiry, and so on; but we have not yet got to any sort of establishment which is to carry on the actual scientific and technological work in regard to the Navy's own special interests—torpedoes, guns, mines, anti-submarines and signalling. How is this work of experimenting to be carried on? We come back again to Naval establishments at Portsmouth, Devonport and Chatham; in fact, we come back to exactly what we had before the War. I think it is generally admitted that such experimental establishments as there were in those three places—in fact, it is admitted in the Memorandum—were quite rudimentary, and the Memorandum promises us a certain expansion and improvement of the arrangements for scientific and techno- logical work at those three centres. Let us hope it is something practical, but I think some further explanation would be very reassuring.

In particular, it must have been apparent, I think, to anybody who watched those establishments struggling with the exigencies of the War that the first and principal reason why they were not on a practical footing before the War was because 99–100ths of the energies was engaged, not in investigation and research, but in the work of training officers and men. Can it be said whether those establishments, on which scientific development in the Navy will depend so much, are still to be so much occupied in training work? Another reason why those establishments, from the experimental and scientific point of view, were not prepared to meet the true needs of the Navy before the War was because they had no permanent staff, because they were staffed by officers, no doubt of great ability, but who were birds of passage, and stayed in those experimental establishments no longer than the commission of an ordinary ship, a year or two. Another thing is that, high as is the ability of those officers, they were yet, by the nature of their pursuits, many years at sea, and were unable to keep up with the most modern scientific forms of qualification. I venture to ask, then, in connection with these promised developments and extensions of these establishments, on which, I say, everything practically in applied science in the Navy depends, whether in future their energies are to be kept free for experimental work; secondly, whether they are to be provided with permanent staffs; and, thirdly, whether those staffs are to be recruited to a reasonable and necessary extent, not only from officers and Service men, but also from men of the highest scientific education and attainments.

9.0 P.M.

I have up to now suggested one or two grounds for economy in the Votes, but I have to make a complaint now of an underestimate of the money required, and it is on these very scientific research services, to which the hon. and gallant Member has just referred in—if I may say so—a very interesting and lucid manner. On page 59 we come down to the gist of the whole thing. Last year, £149,000 was granted for scientific research. This year, I sup- pose as the result of the demands for economy in the Admiralty, it was necessary to cut down here and there, and we have only £32,795 for this purpose. There you have the whole thing. On a subsequent vote you will be asked to vote £5,000,000 for bricks and mortar—for building. Here, for the whole subject of scientific research, for the means of combating any new weapons of warfare and to develop those we have already, we have this suggested reduction of over £100,000. The whole amount voted for scientific research and experiment, including the wages, has cut it down very much. Item 0, this grant for scientific research, is £83,000 as against £202,000 last year.

It is not at all certain what will be the future of Naval warfare; whether the capital ship of the future—and there will always be auxiliaries—will be the submarine, or a surface vessel with powers of submersion, or whether the capital ship of the future will not be air-borne entirely. The art of flying has not developed yet at all in relation to fighting on the sea. We were only at the very threshold of this totally new Naval science when the War came on. The methods of fighting at sea in the future will be as far removed from the methods used at the Battle of Jutland as the methods used at the Battle of Jutland were from the methods used in the old sailing days. On the top of this we have this extraordinary reduction in the grant. Is it that this being a new Department, is, as my hon. Friend suggests, marked out for the slaughter? The great spending departments, the dockyards, the shipbuilding yards, the manning of the fleet, and education have powerful and considerable staffs and have the usual means of fighting for their own existence. But this new tender plant, I am afraid, is to be crushed down. It is false economy. Consider what may happen. The modern unit of War, if it based on wrong lines, means a waste of millions, whereas a few extra thousands spent on scientific research into our future naval needs will be saved a hundred times over.

The "Hood" when she is completed will cost over six million pounds. I suppose it is not quite certain whether she is going to be the type of the capital ship of the future. People who have looked into these problems admit that a certain amount of research goes on in the torpedo depots and other departments, but the research for which this money is asked will really have to decide as to what is to be our final weapon of war on the seas, and here we are cutting it down to the amount in the Vote. I repeat that I am most alarmed about this. I should like to have an assurance from the right hon. Gentleman in his reply that this matter was most carefully examined by the Admiralty, and that he is quite satisfied that all the money that can be usefully expended at the present moment on scientific research and inquiry has been allowed for, and if further experience this year suggests that more money is required that he will bring forward a Supplementary Estimate. I am certain no hon. Member on this side of the House who follows these matters will be found opposing. On the Navy of the future depends the safety of the people of the British Empire.

I wish in a very few words to press upon the First Lord the importance of this particular question, though not many words are necessary in view of the way the case was put by my hon. and gallant Friend behind me (Lieut.-Commander H. Young). I do not see how it is possible that this part of Naval requirements can be reduced in the manner suggested. Last year, and the year before, we pressed for a larger sum. We know that the First Lord has this matter in his mind, so I hope he will be able to give us some satisfactory explanation. One point made by the hon. and gallant Member for Norwich has struck me many times in regard to scientific research work for the Navy, and that is, as he said, that the officers' appointments are temporary, and that they are not kept at the work all their lives. Under these circumstances they do not devote themselves in the way scientific men do devote themselves for years and years to evolve the solution of a particular problem, or to arrive at a real solution of the difficulties of any given situation. What we require at our naval institutes, or whatever name they are called by, is a staff of technical men who will devote their whole time to considering the problems of the future with a view to their solution.

As one who is not associated in any way with the Navy, but as a member of the sister Service, I wish to support what has been said by the hon. and gallant Members for Central Hull and Norwich. I should like to draw the attention of the First Lord to one very interesting problem, which all those who have read and studied the recent War, both from one's own historians and from the point of the view of the historians of our enemies, must strike people with some force. I believe I am right in saying that only one German ship was lost through internal explosion, whereas we ourselves lost fourteen ships in that way. If we can support the First Lord in this House by seeing that money is voted for all possible experiments and inventions which will mean that a vessel of the value of the "Hood," £7,000,000, which, after we have kept afloat despite attacks by submarines and mines, does not become the victim of the first—I was going to say—fool who goes in with a match, we ought to do it. Though thought has been given to some of these matters, and progress, after careful consideration, has been made, we have not yet been able to build a fool-proof ship, so that she will not be lost as a result of internal explosion. No doubt, the First Lord knows the reason which, in the opinion of naval experts, led to the loss of the Bulwark, the Natal, and various other vessels. But I feel perfectly confident that if officers of the Royal Navy, with war experience, were put into the position where they could freely work out the best solution of these problems, it should be the duty of this House to support the Admiralty in getting every penny they require to make these workers efficient. If we base our policy of naval construction on really sound and scientific lines, whatever the capital ship of the future may be, it is upon the scientists and thinkers of the naval service, that constructors will rely for their information in putting these ideas into practical effect. I do hope that the First Lord will not be slow in coming back to the House and placing before it a demand for making this service of scientific research absolutely certain in its results. I do not know whether hon. and gallant Gentlemen who have been associated with the sea services in various ways will agree with me when I say that a fleet in being is not a fleet in being unless it is accom- panied by air-planes. If we go back to the battle of Jutland—

I was going to point out that it was from the lack of scientific experts that some of these things have happened and that such a state of things should not exist in future. It is a question for the Navy to decide whether it would be better to have a seaplane or aeroplane which can land in the water or whether it would be better to have ships which could give accommodation for these machines landing on the deck of a vessel. I am aware that there are two schools of thought in the Navy on this question. There are those who believe in seaplane carriers and think it would be better to use them than to have an aeroplane in each ship. There has been, on the whole, a lack of proper pushing of the importance of scientific investigation of this kind, at least so far as public opinion is concerned, though I have no doubt that everything is known to the Admiralty. The question is whether we should have an aeroplane which should be a fighting machine or one which would be a reconnaissance machine on each vessel or should concentrate the air-planes upon an air-plane carrier. The answer to this question has a good deal to do with what shall be the character of our fighting fleets in the future. I hope that every hon. Member will agree that we ought to give all the help that is necessary to this branch of the Naval Service and to the officers who have given such valuable service in regard to the use of aeroplanes and seaplanes. As to the amount of the estimate I do not know whether the Navy would be able to make use of the laboratory at Teddington; whether that institution will deal also with seaplanes. Will the money that is expended there be available for the service of the Navy? If it is extra money that can be used in that way, that may be some explanation of the shortage of money in these Estimates for the Navy for that purpose. I hope the First Lord of the Admiralty will agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy). Most of us would rather vote money for scientific research in the Navy than for any other of the other Votes which may come before us.

If hon. Members will turn to page 54 of the Estimates they will find a reference to wages of labourer, watchman, gate porters, and messengers. The amount is ÂŁ350, as I understand, for the whole year. Is this the whole of the sum for these men for the year? It looks rather extraordinary, and I cannot think that it is the amount these men are going to be paid. I do not know whether they are part-time men or what they are. I am rather astonished to hear the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull asking for more money for the scientific improvement of the Navy in view of his associations and his belief in the League of Nations by which war is to be discouraged. There is another item which took away my breath at first. It is on page 53, a sum of ÂŁ300 for photographing a map of the heavens. Does that mean that having conquered the greater part of the world we are now beginning to map out the heavens for the purpose of conquering them by aeroplanes or something of that kind? I do not think that the Government has anything to learn in its applications for money for the scientific branches of the Services, either the Army or the Navy. Taking this Estimate it does not seem to me that any increase is necessary. I should like an answer to my question about the amount of ÂŁ350 for the wages of several men.

I think that in considering this Vote some Members have been unjust to the Admiralty in complaining that it is not enough. A comparison should be made, not between last year and this year, but between this year and the years before the War. If hon. Members will look at the table which accompanies this document, they will find that the amount for 1913–14 under this head was £53,375. For three or four years it was not quite so much as that. I think that, though we have sympathy with the Navy, and with the needs of scientific investigation and research, it is a considerable jump from the £53,000 odd to the £302,000 asked for this year, which we have been told is a year which inaugurates a long era of peace among the nations. I do not think that it should be required at this time that we should call upon those engaged in scientific research in this country to develop the engines of war, rather than to apply themselves to the reconstruction of the social and economic life of the country. While there may be a danger of war coming, it is necessary, no doubt, that we should have the most scientific and efficient Navy possible. But I do not think that this Vote suggests that we are starving the Research Department of the Navy. I have the greatest sympathy with this side of the Navy's work, but I think that quite a sufficient jump is being made in the interests of science this year. Take one item, the Compass Department. The amount for salaries, wages, and contingencies is £25,564 for the coming year, against £15,000 last year. It may be my ignorance, but I should like to know why we require such an increase on that one Department, a very important one, no doubt. I do not think that the Admiralty is showing any extravagance with regard to scientific research, when we compare the amount with what was spent last year or before the War.

I am very far from quarrelling with any of the criticisms that have been made, although there has been an attempt to take the view that the Admiralty has not done all it ought to have done in regard to scientific research. I must repudiate the suggestion made by the hon. Member opposite (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) that while we were prepared to waste money on buildings we were not prepared to spend money on scientific research. The profound general knowledge which the hon. Member has displayed on Admiralty affairs, indeed, upon the affairs of the universe, ought to have enabled him to realise that, whether it is scientific research or education, it is quite impossible to develop these things unless you are able to find the necessary accommodation. I spent some considerable time this morning in trying to find a way to provide proper buildings for this work to be done, and on this point I think I can remove the anxieties of all those hon. Members who referred to this question.

Let me say that the Board of Admiralty are heartily in accord with all that has been said in favour of doing everything that is necessary, and spending all the money that is necessary, in connection with scientific research. I do not think we are open to the charges which have been made on this point, although they have been made in a friendly spirit. We have endeavoured to put things on a new footing. The comparison that has been made between the expenditure last year and this year is entirely fallacious. Last year we had large sums to clear up from the War, and there was expenditure which had necessarily been incurred during the War. The first thing I found upon personal investigation was that there was a great deal of work being done of the same kind on practically the same experiments in too many different places. Secondly, I found, and I hope I shall not be jumped upon by the scientific advocates, that frequently, if you establish a scientific body of experts with an opportunity to develop all their ideas untrammelled either by control or expenditure, they will do almost anything, and there is no limit to the wonderful experiments, and perhaps inventions and discoveries, at which they would arrive; but it is not fair that the Admiralty should pay for scientific work which is really being done for the benefit of the nation as a whole. That is what is going on at Shandon. I found a great deal of work being done there for which the Admiralty were paying was work which would be of no benefit whatever for the Navy, although it might be of great benefit to the community at large. It might be very valuable for the mercantile marine and other purposes, but for the Navy it had no advantage at all. It was obvious that it was not right that the Government should bear that portion of the expense, and the question was how to bring things into line.

I have been asked a question about Teddington, and what is the position as regards the scientific laboratory and other work which is being carried on there. The same thing applies at Teddington. Before we embark upon work for scientific or any other purpose we should be certain that we are on the right lines. Earlier this evening it was said that the Admiralty did not welcome these new devolopments, but I do not believe there is- any foundation for that statement. I believe the Admiralty are ahead of most other nations in scientific discoveries and developments in substitution of sound for sight. That is only one of the branches in which experiments are being made, but even this was being duplicated, and the Government decided to ask the Lord President of the Council, who is specially charged with the care of all scientific work in the country, if he would set up a Committee to inquire into the whole of the work done by the different Government Departments to prevent overlapping, and to prevent two Departments doing the same work. As far as we can at the Admiralty we are ready to find all the money that is required for the naval side of this question, but I am not prepared to ask Parliament to give the Admiralty money to spend when it should be spent by some other Department in cases where the benefit will not be for the Admiralty, but for the nation at large.

As regards the Teddington case, we have appointed a Director of Scientific Research. We are going to concentrate our naval scientific research at Teddington Laboratory, and when it comes to sea-water research we propose to carry that out at the seaports. I have already spoken of Shandon. In this case we hope before the end of the year to have the benefit of the Report of the Committee set up by the President of the Council, and then we shall be in a position to avoid overlapping, and avoid the kind of duplication of work to which I have referred. Meanwhile I do not think the Committee should criticise us adversely, because the difficulties for last year include work which overlapped from the War; in fact, we had to deal with the aftermaths of the War. On this matter the Committee need be under no anxiety, because our naval advisers are just as enthusiastic about this work as anybody else, and just as much alive to the fact that it is essential for the future efficiency of the Navy to carry out the work, and we shall not hesitate to ask Parliament for such money as the Navy advisers think necessary in order to give the fullest effect to scientific research, and the development of the results arrived at.

I want some information with regard to the Hydrographic Department. There was some difficulty a time ago in getting accommodation for this Department, and at that time I was very interested in its extension and in the exceedingly useful work it was doing. I observe there is a note here of the great number of charts prepared by the Department during the War. Charts were prepared not only for the use of the Navy, but also for the Mercantile Marine, and no doubt they played a great part in the safe voyage of many ships. Probably few Departments have rendered more valuable service than this Hydrographical Depart- ment. The reason a large number of charts had to be prepared was to be found in the continual changing of the mine fields and in the numerous wrecks and casualties. I had thought that one effect of the Armistice would have been that this Department would have been reduced, but there appears, if anything, to be an increase in its personnel, and the amount to be voted had risen from £71,184 to £74,104, while, on the other hand, dealing with material which must be some measure of the work of the Department, we find that the amount has decreased from £116,000 to £88,000. I am therefore rather curious to know why the personnel of the Department is not to be decreased, or, at any rate, why the amount of money spent on the personnel is not lessened. I find that the sum set down as the amount received for charts is £117,252, although on another page the appropriation in that regard is only £77,000. That is a discrepancy which should be explained. I think there is room for congratulating the First Lord on having a Department which at some period of its existence has more than paid its cost, for I find that, taking into account the value of the charts prepared for the Navy and the Mercantile Marine, it produced a profit in 1919–20 of something like £130,000.

I want to impress on the First Lord what was said by the hon. Member for Clackmannan with regard to the development of the air service of the Fleet, and I want to repeat that the Navy will never have an efficient air service until it takes it into its own hands. I congratulate the First Lord on the appointment of a Naval Member to the Air Board, but I hope that that is only a temporary expedient.

I also would like to have an explanation of the discrepancy in the figures regarding the proceeds from the sale of charts. I want further to ask the First Lord a question affecting the Air Service. I want to know whether any progress has been made in the aerial surveys of unchartered waters. Notice was given of this question some time ago, and therefore I think we may look for an answer. In the Red Sea during the War they were making aerial surveys of the reefs, and I suggest that this is a form of work which might usefully employ officers of the Naval Air Service in peace time. On the same subject I will ask the First Lord if he can give, for the information of the Committee, some information with regard to the Compasses Department, which does work for both the Air Service and the Navy. In the air the compass is subjected to great vibrations, and special air compasses have been devised. I see there is a Superintendent of this Department, and that a sum of ÂŁ1,500 is voted this year for experiments in connection with gyroscopic compasses, and I want to know what steps are being taken and whether the gyroscopic principle has been applied to air compasses. Then there is a sum of ÂŁ250 put down for a Committee on Geographical Names, and I think it might be of some interest to this Committee to have further particulars as to this.

With reference to the question raised as to discrepancies in the accounts of the Hydrographic Department I will endeavour to ascertain what is the explanation. I am sure hon. Members will agree with me that there is no work more important than this chart work, and I am glad to say that at the end of last year or rather the beginning of this year, when the hydrographers from all over the world met here in conference, we were able to afford them assistance for which they expressed themselves extremely grateful, and they told us they were profoundly impressed with the admirable character of the work which we were doing. They said it was of the utmost value, not only to the Navy, but to the whole world, and therefore I think we have every reason to be proud of the position we occupy in this respect.

My hon. and gallant Friend opposite (Captain W. Benn) asked what he described as one or two small questions. I am bound to say that they all seemed to me extremely small. Baiting Ministers over their Estimates is a very old and quite legitimate occupation. I am not complaining; I have taken part in it myself when I was in Opposition. I am not even saying that this is baiting. But when one is asked about an item of ÂŁ250 in Estimates running to ÂŁ90,000,000, it is asking a good deal of those in charge that they should be ready to give an answer of that kind. The answer always given in these minute questions is that they shall be inquired into, and I say here, as I have often said before, that I will let my hon. and gallant Friend know what the exact answer is to the smaller questions he has asked. I think that is a reasonable reply to make when the figures are so great and the question is so minute.

Does that apply to the workmen I mentioned? I thought that in that case the explanation might be that their employment was partial. If it is regular employment it is disgraceful.

Certainly, I think there is some explanation such as my hon. Friend has suggested. The War bonuses are given below, but it is very difficult to understand how that sum of money could be distributed in wages among that number of men.

I never had the least intention of doing what the right hon. Gentleman complains of, namely, what he calls baiting Ministers. All the questions I have asked to-day have been questions excited by real interest in the Estimates and in the subjects concerned. As the right hon. Gentleman is reinforced by the Financial Secretary and an able staff, I think it is due to the Committee that we should have answers, not to very small points, but to some points. This point about the compasses is an important one, as is also that about the aerial survey. We cannot cross-examine the right hon. Gentleman except on this occasion, which is the one set apart for the job. It is a point in the interest of the self-respect of the Committee of Supply. I should like to ask him once again about the point raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle (Major Barnes). On one page you have ÂŁ117,000 received for charts, while on another page it says the amount was ÂŁ77,000. Would any meeting of shareholders vote on accounts in this form?

In the one case the amount is described as estimated, and they are not for the same years. The hon. and gallant Member will recognise the fact that one amount is an estimate for one year, and the other is for a different period.

The year 1919–20 has long since closed. Why do we have an Estimate for that? Cannot we be told what it is? Why is it that on one occasion we are told that it was £117,000 and on the other £77,000? It requires a little elucidation, and I think it might perhaps be approached in a better spirit and with more desire to supply information to the Committee than appears to exist.

Question put, and agreed to.

Royal Naval Reserves

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding ÂŁ479,800, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Royal Naval Reserve, the Royal Fleet Reserve, and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, etc., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."

I hope I shall not put any question which the First Lord cannot answer. The only one I am going to touch upon is one to which I am sure he has given anxious consideration for many months past. It relates to Item C (Expenses of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve) on page 63. The Estimate is ÂŁ60.000, and there is a note to the effect that the future of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve is under consideration. It will be observed that last year the sum was only ÂŁ31,000, and the fact that this year it is very nearly double requires explanation. One explanation I would hazard is that last year most of the officers were actually in uniform and embodied in the Fleet, and therefore the expense of retaining fees and of organisation for keeping them in being was not so great as this year. I do not know if that is the case. How long is it going to be before the future of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve is settled, and we know how many reservists will be required in this corps, and what their training is to be? It will be remembered that last year most of the hon. Members who spoke on the Navy Estimates pressed the First Lord as to the policy with regard to the rank and file of the lower deck of the Navy, and we were told that it was impossible to settle it. We press here for some word, if possible, as to the future of this corps. If the Noble and gallant Member for Battersea (Viscount Curzon) were here, I know he would reinforce me in speaking of the great importance of having a settled policy.

I consider that a grave injustice was done to the men of the lower deck of the Royal Navy by the way in which the commissioned ranks of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve were artificially swollen during the War. I wish to pay a great tribute to the gallant work by the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, in which many hon. Members of this House have served during the War. Owing, however, to the flooding of the commissioned ranks of the Royal Navy by officers of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, the long-service blue-jackets—professional seamen—were blocked in promotion. In the Army, especially towards the end, most of the promotions were made from the ranks, but in the Navy that was not the case. All sorts of people were got in from outside and given commissions in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, without any sea experience whatever, while blue-jackets and petty officers who had done long and faithful service in the Navy—seasoned seamen who knew their work thoroughly—were kept serving on in the ranks. This created a certain amount of ill-feeling and disappointment on the part of many gallant men of the Royal Navy. I will give just one example of what I refer to. In Portsmouth there is a shop that does a great trade in supplying cheap boots to seamen, and there was an assistant employed there at a small wage in trying on boots for bluejackets. This young man with no previous training or experience, who had never served in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, was given a commission as a lieutenant in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve over the heads of the men whom he used to serve in that shop. I ask the Committee, is that the sort of thing that is likely to lead to efficiency, or to react to the contentment of the long- service personnel of the Navy, or to be beneficial to the future of the Royal Naval volunteer Reserve, to the good work done by so many members of which I naturally pay the greatest possible tribute? When at last they come to some conclusion about the future of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, if we ever should be engaged in war again or there is such an emergency as needs an expansion of the Navy, I suggest that the extra officer required should be taken from the regular personnel of the lower deck and we should not go outside to landsmen with no previous experience whatever. I am afraid the reasons why the Admiralty adopted this was twofold. In the first place, they did not want to have a residue of officers on their hands after the War. The Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officer was given a tem- porary commission and at the end of the War you paid him his gratuity and finished with him, whereas if you promoted bluejackets, they would remain in. the Navy and it would be difficult to deal with them afterwards. But there were means which might have been adopted. They need not have taken so many Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve officers, and might have given more promotion to many deserving men of the bluejacket and stoker class. There is a second reason. They thought they would get a better type if they could go to the so-called educated class. The incident I have given of the boot-shop assistant is only one of many similar ones, and whatever their intentions were, they did not get in any case the particularly well educated. All sorts of petty local influences seem to have been used, and the results were not always what they should have been. In any case, a mere glibness of speech, a mere superficial educational advantage does not compensate for lack of experience, and your bluejacket who can just read and write and whose education is meagre, but who has served many years at sea and knows his work, is worth 50 young men who come in and are given temporary commissions. An injustice was done to the men of the lower deck in that respect, and whatever policy is decided on, I hope it will not be the policy of the Admiralty with regard to the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve between 1914 and 1918.

The point my hon. and gallant Friend has made is one which is a source of very great grievance not only in the Navy, but in the Army, and I hope the concrete example he has given will enable greater attention to be paid to that kind of grievance. The point I wish to make is based upon the, I think, unassailable principle of the examination of Estimates. The Estimates for the year are always presumed to be the ascertained requirements of the current year, and a sum is granted on the ground stated—that is, the ascertained necessities of the year. Taking that as the first ground, let us see how it fits in with the official statement on page 12 of the Navy Estimates, an admirable statement, forming a useful precedent which I expect will always be followed in the future. Under the heading of Reserves, there are these sentences:

10.00 P.M.

The position is one of uncertainty and of reorganisation. The Admiralty ought to have reflected in this vote the position which they frankly state in the Estimate on page 12. They ought to have taken a sufficient sum to carry them through the current year on the basis of reorganisation, and that, I am certain, the Committee would gladly have granted. But not at all. They ask for more than last year, with half the numbers, and a state of disorganisation and reorganisation. I leave that perfectly bald, simple statement of the case as disclosed by themselves, and I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to address himself to that task. I sympathise with him in the fact that he has only perhaps within two or three days had to settle down to tackle this long list of Estimates, but that is not the fault of the Committee. It is the duty of the Committee to raise these points and to require a frank explanation of them. Unless I get a statement that will satisfy the ordinary business man, I shall be compelled to move a reduction and to take the matter to a Division as a protest against this way of laying Estimates of this kind.

I hope to be able to give my right hon. Friend fairly full information in regard to the matters he refers to. The whole question of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve has been under the special consideration of the Board of Admiralty for a considerable time. From what I know, I believe it was considered much better from the point of view of recruiting for the force in future not to make any premature announcement on the subject, because so much depends upon the terms, down to the smallest detail, and recruit men for volunteer service on terms that still had to be settled. Therefore, the delay, which has been unavoidable in order to cope with the whole question cut and dried before putting it before the country, was a sound policy, and one which the Committee will approve. I have the authority of my right hon. Friend the First Lord for saying that when the scheme is prepared in detail he will make the fullest announcement first of all in this House. The House will be the medium through which we will inform the public and those who desire to recruit for the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. The terms will be so minute that I think it may possibly take at least a month and probably two months before my right hon. Friend can make an announcement. I speak subject to correction, but I cannot bind the Department to do it within that period. I made inquiries before coming down to the House, and I think it will be possibly a month or two before a final decision is come to. My right hon. Friend raises the point how it is without having taken into consideration the question of the future of this Force, and without budgeting for a Force, the conditions of which we do not know, the Estimates are larger than before. My hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut-Commander Ken-worthy) raised a similar question, pointing out that the Vote this year was £60,000 as against £31,000. The answer to that is that the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve when mobilised are charged to Vote 1. Now they are being demobilised, and the expense of training is greater, and as this expense does not come under Vote 1, that accounts for the £30,000 increase to which he has referred. With regard to the Estimate for the Royal Fleet Reserve, which represents an increase of over £60,000, the men leaving the Navy are joining the Royal Fleet Reserve in large numbers. We are allowing free discharge to the Fleet Reserve and, consequently, that item is increased through the men going into the Reserve from the Fleet. With regard to the sub-head "H," Special Reserve of Engineer Officers, this is a new sub-head, the Special Reserve having only been started quite recently. The Reserve consists of those who have served during the War in a temporary capacity, and they receive a retaining fee which is dependent upon these officers keeping themselves efficient. I have tried to meet the various points that have been raised—I hope satisfactorily.

My right hon. Friend seems to think that we are keeping up our sleeve some scheme which we have not announced to the country. I would ask his forbearance in this regard. Until the scheme is brought out it would be very difficult to calculate the cost, and it would also be very difficult to estimate the numbers. If there are any other points, I will do my very utmost to elucidate them.

I happen to represent a part of the country which is very much interested in the Royal Naval Reserve. At one time almost every young man in my constituency would try to get into the Royal Naval Reserve. Sometimes it was very difficult. The examinations were very exacting. But during the War large numbers came into the Naval Reserve, and it has always been a popular service in that part of the country, and people there look forward with a considerable amount of interest if not anxiety to what the future conditions of the Royal Naval Reserve are going to be. I do hope that the conditions will be such as to attract as many as possible. Developments of the Naval Reserve would be an advantage to the Navy and would economise in the regular Naval Service. I have a great deal of sympathy with what my hon. and gallant Friend said as to the officers of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve during the War. At certain naval bases I came across a great many of these officers, and some of them did excellent work. A very gallant Member of this House, the late Mr. Norman Craig, who was a doctor in the Royal Naval Volunteers, did splendid work in Scotland for three or four years during the War. There is another point as to a slight grievance in the matter of gratuity to the members of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. I brought it forward last year when the Naval Estimates were on. I referred to the case of men who are discharged medically unfit a few weeks before they complete the 20 years in the Naval Reserve which would entitle them to a gratuity. There has been a fair number of cases within my own personal knowledge, cases of men who were discharged a few weeks, and in some cases a few days, before the 20 years' period had elapsed, and who lost on that account the gratuity to which they were entitled. At the Ministry of Pensions my hon. and gallant Friend (Sir J. Craig) exercised his humane instincts and took a much wider view than they do at the Admiralty or the War Office. Now he is at the Admiralty, we want him to apply his mind to these particular grievances.

I think I have seldom heard so much good sense packed into a short speech as that which I heard from my hon. and gallant friend opposite, with regard to this question of not putting down unnecessary money in Estimates until schemes under consideration had been properly worked out. He said it was unwise to recruit into the Royal Naval Reserve until the matter had been settled upon broad general terms, down to the smallest detail. That was perfectly right. He said the matter was under careful consideration, but that it might take a couple of months or more before the proper scheme could be settled. The Committee does not desire the matter to be rushed. Then, of course, men will consider the proposals, and if the proposals are attractive they will join. I suppose the season will then be too far advanced for anything in the nature of an annual training. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman said it was very unwise before you knew what your scheme was to be, to make shots at its cost. This ÂŁ60,000 is a shot at what it might cost if the scheme is brought forward, accepted by the House, and put into operation. I submit, therefore, that the proper method is not the making of a rough shot, but the putting down of a token sum, say ÂŁ100 or ÂŁ1,000, to keep the Sub-head alive, and then to produce Supplementary Estimates when the scheme is worked out. In the absence of any real explanation of the basis on which this ÂŁ60,000 has been inserted, I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman should withdraw this Estimate now, and bring forward a Supplementary Estimate when the scheme is produced, when men have enlisted under it, and there is some indication of the expenditure that will be wanted during the year.

There are certain points which have not been satisfactorily dealt with so far, and unless we can get some more satisfaction we must obviously move a reduction and go to a Division. Three points have been put with regard to the Royal Naval Reserve, the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, and the Royal Fleet Reserve. On the first, there is a decrease in the Estimate of £80,000, and on the other two there is an increase of £90,000, so that there is no real saving, and we want some explanation as to why this is the case. On page 61 of the Estimates there is an amount of £22,382 for the optional training of the executive officers of the Home Force of the General Service of the Royal Naval Reserve. There is nothing in 1919–20 for this particular Service. I do not know what this optional training refers to. Does it mean that so many men will receive a certain amount of training and a certain amount of pay? There is also a sum of £1,504 for warrant engineers and £1,000 for engine-room artificers. As a matter of interest, I should like to know, in connection with the Colonial branches, why the naval officer in Newfoundland, who acts as registrar-general, gets £150, whereas a similar officer in Malta gets £250, although the officer in Newfoundland has twice as many men to look after as the officer in Malta, who gets £100 per year more. On page 63, Sub-section G, when we come to the question of the Royal Marine officers, there was nothing in 1919–20, whereas the pay here is £1,557 for obligatory training and £675 for optional training. The same with regard to Subsection H, which deals with obligatory training, optional training, and retaining fees. There is nothing in 1919–20. I suppose the explanation is that these men were employed in War operations, and were therefore drawing ordinary pay, but you have a sum of £9,205 on the Estimates of this year for work of which we have no explanation. Reverting to the main point, expressed in Sub-section C, on page 63, we have an Estimate for 100 per cent., the amount required for the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, and the note is added that "the future of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve is at present under consideration." Let me suggest that surely the obvious course was to take some small amount that would enable the right hon. Gentleman to deal with the situation till he had matured a scheme, and that then he could have come here and submitted the matured scheme to the House, with the amount which it was going to cost. I do not think either the First Lord or the Financial Secretary would dispute the fact that in that case this House would not grudge the money, and if that is true, why ask us for this amount, which is an indeterminate amount, which is 100 per cent. above what was required in 1919–20, while we are informed in the note that they have not made up their minds what the scheme is to be? It is that kind of thing that irritates public opinion in the country and induces our constituents to believe that we give the Government too free a hand in framing these big schemes. If we were to pass this Estimate as it stands, both my right hon. Friend and my hon. and gallant Friend would take it that the opinion of the House of Commons was that they could go ahead with any kind of scheme, and once that opinion gets into the minds of Ministers and officials, they are bound to frame a much more expensive scheme than they would if they knew that a matured scheme had to run the gauntlet of criticism here. Why cannot the right hon. Gentleman meet us in that respect?

After all, the First Lord is a very old and a very experienced Parliamentarian, and he himself has sat on this side of the House long enough to know the kind of thing which the Opposition is entitled to ask. I think he will agree with the criticism which I am urging. The opposition, it may be, is numerically weak in this House, but it is attempting to assist him and the Government to effect economics, because there is no use in our talking about economy in general terms if we are not prepared to consider economy in meticulous detail in these Estimates. On. a scheme which is not prepared, on which neither the right hon. Gentleman nor the hon. Gentleman is prepared to make a speech at this moment, on which they are not prepared to give the House a summary, they are asking for the appropriation of 100 per cent. increase. I do not think that is fair to the House, to the-country, or to themselves.

I rise to ask the First Lord if he can give us a date when the scheme of the Board of Admiralty can be produced. I should like to remind him that we made a strong appeal to him for the scheme this time last year, and we received a sort of assurance that it would be produced during the course of the year. I think the time has now arrived when we might ask for a date when it will come out. He will understand, I am sure, that the men who served in the Royal Naval Volunteer Force during the War, and who might be eligible to join the new Service, are anxious to carry on the work, and not get too rusty, so to speak, and there are others who are anxious to join a seer vice of this kind. They are particularly anxious that the course of training shall not be of a character that will lead many of them, as on the last occasion, into becoming foot soldiers. They desire to receive training which will enable them to carry out the duties they might expect to carry out as the Naval Auxiliary Force in war time.

I quite appreciate the view that was being put, when I came into the House, by the hon. Gentleman who was speaking just now, that the House of Commons does not like to be asked to Vote money unless it has the full facts at its disposal. I perfectly well know that, but I would ask the House to consider that, during the last 12 or 18 months the Board of Admiralty have had a gigantic task imposed upon them. We have had first of all to recover from the aftermath of war, which in itself has been a terrific task. We have then had to endeavour to ascertain the new requirements. With regard to this scheme, I can assure my hon. Friend that I am as anxious as he is that we should be in a position to produce it. I have been pressing very hard for its production within the last six weeks. I quite hope it will be in my hands very shortly. The Committee which is inquiring into the details in framing that part of the scheme have given me an assurance that nothing shall be allowed to hinder its production, and I have pressed' for it, and I have expressed my hope that I shall have it within a fortnight. I do not like to mention a month as a definite time, but I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that not an hour will be lost which can be possibly avoided. I know the difficulty. I know, in the absence of a scheme, those who are anxious to join the Naval Reserve are tempted to join other Forces. I know that they are getting disappointed; that their enthusiasm may be cooled by their being held up. I know the vital importance of bringing the scheme out. I know, too, that the hon. Members and others who have served with so much distinction in this Force may feel that this is want of appreciation on the part of the Admiralty of the work they have done. I assure the Committee, and my hon. and gallant Friends, that it is nothing of the kind. It is due entirely to the fact that the reorganization has been a gigantic task. I do not hesitate to say that, because I am speaking for others more than for myself. Still, I do not think we have anything of which to be ashamed in regard to the work of the last 12 months, or, indeed, since peace was declared, in connection with the reorganisation of His Majesty's Navy. A great deal of the work has fallen upon the same people. There has been no postponement. It is just as much the desire of the Admiralty as it is that of my hon. Friends that the scheme should be produced. I think I have shown what the encroachments upon this work have been, but I will undertake that the scheme shall be produced at the earliest possible moment, and I mean by that within as short a time as possible.

We are very much indebted to the First Lord for the frank statement he has made. But I think ho will possibly agree with me that he has given admirable ground for the withdrawal of this Vote at present. I will make this offer: that he will withdraw this Vote and bring it up again when he has in more definite form the scheme to which he has referred. If so, I think I might ask leave to report Progress and so give the Government the opportunity of going on with a Bill, which has some Lords' Amendment, and which they wish to have to-night. There is another matter, a real constitutional point, to which I wish to draw the attention of the First Lord—because he is a House of Commons man, and whether he is on one side or the other I always feel that I can address him on that point with a certain amount of confidence. The Army and the Navy have the power, which is granted to no other Department, to adjust their accounts at the close of the session under the Navy and Army Accounts Committee. so that what they have saved on the one hand they can apply on the other. What, so to speak, they save on the swings they can spend on the roundabouts. But the result of this is that we lose complete control. On the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman as to the scheme which he is going to bring out, the scheme that he has defended and that we have never seen, how can he ask the House to grant this money? I am not doing this to save money, the money necessary for instruction, because I am anxious to help the Government to get on with the business. But I am making an offer. If my right hon. Friend will withdraw Vote we are quite willing to give him Vote 9. We can then report Progress, and take the other Bill which apparently the Government is desirous of having.

I quite understand that my right hon. Friend undertakes that if we withdraw Vote 7 that he will give us Vote 9. Realising as the Government do most fully that the Committee is in a very disagreeable position in relation to Vote 7, and realising also that there is nothing obstructive in the attitude adopted by the right hon. Gentleman and others, we are quite willing to try and meet them. The suggestion is that we should withdraw Vote 7, take Vote 9, and then put down Vote 10 and the remaining Votes, including Vote 7, for the Tuesday after we reassemble. Of course, I cannot undertake that by that date the scheme will be ready, but, in any case, I understand that Vote 12, the Vote for the Minister's salary, is to be held over until the latter end of the Session in the usual way in order that if there be any fresh situation or question of policy it can be raised. The suggestion is a quite reasonable one, and I am prepared to withdraw Vote 7 and take Vote 9.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Naval Armaments

Resolved,

"That a sum, not exceeding ÂŁ6,260,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Naval Armaments, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."

Motion made and Question "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.— [Sir D. Maclean.]

Resolutions to be reported to-morrow.

Committee to sit again To-morrow.

Public Utility Companies (Capital Issues) Bill

Motion made, and Question "That the Lords' Amendment be now considered," put, and agreed to.

Lords Amendment considered.

CLAUSE 1.—(Powers under provisions of special Acts and Orders as to capital issues)

(1) Where a company are authorised by special Act to raise capital by the issue of stock or the borrowing of money for the purpose of carrying on any undertaking to which this Act applies, or where the powers of a company to raise capital or borrow money for the purpose of carrying on such an undertaking are limited by the special Act, the company may, if they think fit, notwithstanding anything in the special Act, with the consent of the appropriate Government Department, which consent may be given subject to such terms and conditions as appear to the Department to be expedient—

Provided that—

(i) preference stock, whether redeemable or otherwise, shall not be issued under the authority of this Act to greater extent than shall be sufficient to produce, including any premium which may be obtained on the sale thereof, an amount equal to the nominal amount of the stock authorised to be issued by the special Act or, as the case may be, the amount authorised to be raised by the special Act; and

Lords Amendment:

In Sub-section (1), after the word "that" ["Provided that"], insert the words,

"(i) The Department shall require a company making application to them for their consent under this Act to give notice of the application in writing to the council of each county, borough or urban or rural district, within which any part of the undertaking, or limits of supply of the company is situate, and of the manner in which and time within which representations may be made with respect to the application, and the Department shall consider any representations which may be duly made."

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

As the House knows, this measure is to provide for variations of the provisions for raising capital by certain public utility companies. The Amendment from the House of Lords merely requires that where they intend to take advantage of the provisions of this Bill, they shall be required to give notice to the local authorities in the area concerned, the point being that any such action should not take place without the knowledge of the local authorities, so that they may be able to raise any objection during the time when objections can be raised, and while the Order is lying upon the Table of this House.

This is an Amendment to Clause 1, Sub-section (1, e ), I understand, and not to all the Subsections. Is that so?

It is merely another proviso coming in before the others. There are five provisos in the original Bill at the end of the first part, and this is merely an additional proviso to that Sub-section.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether Sub-section (8), which authorises a higher rate of dividend, applies to capital raised under this Bill or already in existence?

This proviso refers to what happens in the earlier part of the Clause, and not merely to Subsection (1, e ).

Does this apply to capital raised under this Bill or before the Bill is passed?

It only refers to the capital raised by this Act, which could not have been raised if this Act had not been passed.

Question put, and agreed to.

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

German Oil Tankers, Leith

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."[ Lieut.-Colonel Sir R. Sanders. ]

I want to ask the representative of the Shipping Controller a question on a local matter. Some months ago five large German oil tankers were sent to Leith. They were part of the mercantile marine of the Germans which came into our possession. They had been lying in the docks for some six months. There is no accommodation for a number of other German ships which are waiting to be reconditioned in the shipyards. I raised the question previously and received a very courteous and encouraging reply. Up to the present they have not found it possible to remove these ships. It is, I admit, a local matter, but still it is very important. Apparently the difficulty is that these ships have been allotted to the French, Belgian and Italian Governments, and they have neither steam nor crews to take them out into the river, so they have to occupy all this wharf and quay space. I would like an assurance that at a very early date we may get rid of these tankers and that room may thereby be made for the German ships which have to be reconditioned at Leith, thus finding employment for many men. There are thousands of engineers and others out of work, and it would be as well to find work for them and for the seafarers who could be engaged. If the hon. Gentleman will give me this assurance, he will not only earn my gratitude, but, what is more important, the gratitude of the workpeople of Leith, whose interests are very much affected by these continual delays.

I am very glad that my hon. and gallant Friend has given me an opportunity of dealing with the question of these tankers at Leith. As a matter of fact, there happen to be seven instead of five of them. My hon. Friend put down a question last week, and I hoped to be able to answer it in Friday's OFFICIAL REPORT.

I told the hon. Member that the allocation of these vessels rests not with the Ministry of Shipping but the Reparation Commission. He said that these vessels had been allocated, but they have not been allocated. I fully agree with him that it is of the greatest possible importance to use every vessel we can to carry fuel oil. They are invaluable at the present moment, and I wish we could use those particular seven vessels. But it has not been possible to do so pending the decisions of the Reparation Commission. I am sure the hon. and gallant Member would not wish me to go into the details of the reasons why we cannot. This is an international problem and a very difficult problem. We are doing everything possible to get the question settled, but until it is settled by the Reparation Commission it is not possible to use these particular tankers. The fault does not lie with the Ministry of Shipping. These are not allocated to any nation for managing, and it is outside the power of the Ministry of Shipping to deal with any ships not allocated to them under Armistice terms. I have represented as strongly as I can the position to the Maritime Service of the Reparation Commission and they have very recently gone into the whole subject. I am in a position to tell my hon. Friend that arrangements are now being made and it is expected that the tankers will be moved in the course of the next few days. I can assure him that we realise in the Ministry of Shipping how important it is, from the point of view of which he has spoken, that these ships should be moved at the earliest possible moment. They are blocking the port of Leith. If we had been able to do anything ourselves, we would have taken action, but, as I have explained, it is outside our powers, and within the purview of the Reparation Commission.

I should like to thank the hon. and gallant Gentleman very sincerely for the action he has taken in this matter.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Ten minutes before Eleven o'clock.