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Commons Chamber

Volume 129: debated on Tuesday 18 May 1920

House of Commons

Tuesday, May 18, 1920

Private Business

Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:

Newtownards Urban District Council Bill [ Lords. ]

Edinburgh Boundaries Extension and Tramways Bill [ Lords. ]

Bank of Scotland Bill [ Lords. ]

Gelligaer Urban District Council Bill [ Lords. ]

Pontypridd Stipendiary Magistrates Bill [ Lords. ]

Filey Urban District Council Bill [ Lords. ]

Ordered, That the Bills be read a Second time.

Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill.

Gas and Water Provisional Orders Bill.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Gas) Bill.

Ordered, That the Bills be read a Second time To-morrow.

Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills. That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill,

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill.

Ordered, That the Bills be read a Second time To-morrow.

Invergordon Harbour (Transfer) Bill (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 12th May, That, in the case of the following Bill, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:

Invergordon Harbour (Transfer) Bill.

Belfast Water Bill [ Lords, ]

Tees Valley Water Bill [ Lords, ]

Read a Second time, and committed.

Wandsworth, Wimbledon and Epsom District Gas Bill [ Lords ] ( by Order ),—Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,

Motherwell and Wishaw Burghs (Amalgamation and Extension) Order Confirmation Bill,

Considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Land Drainage (Ouse) Provisional Order Bill ( by Order ),—Consideration, as amended, deferred till Tomorrow.

Oral Answers to Questions

Questions

Ss. "Johann Heinrich Buchart."

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if any representation has been made to the Dutch Government in regard to the transfer of the ex-Hamburg-American ss. "Johann Heinrich Buchart" to the Royal Holland-Lloyd Line, which ship is advertised to sail from Plymouth on the 21st instant under the name of "Lim burgia"?

His Majesty's Minister at the Hague informed the Netherlands Government on 15th March, 1919, that His Majesty's Government did not recognise the validity of the sale of this vessel to Holland, and on 4th November, 1919, a Note was addressed by the Supreme Council to the Netherland Government stating that the principal Allied and Associated Powers could not recognise the property right to this vessel by the Dutch company interested. As the hon. Member is aware, the case is under the consideration of the Reparation Commission.

Can the British Government take any action to see that this vessel is not lost to this country?

That matter has been considered, but the question is now in charge of the Reparation Commission, and I do not think that His Majesty's Government can take any independent action.

When will the Report be ready, and can no action be taken meanwhile by the British Government?

Edropean Countries (Populations)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can issue a White Paper showing the best available information as to the effect of the War upon the populations of the various European countries, showing particularly the numbers of war casualties and other deaths, and the decline in the number of births?

I understand from the authorities in this country who study these matters, that there is not yet sufficient information available to render it possible to contemplate the issue of a White Paper on the subject. A series of publications have, I believe, been pre- pared by a Danish writer, Mr. C. Doring, and copies have been obtained by the Royal Statistical Society, who would doubtless be pleased to permit the hon. Member to consult them, on application.

Russia

Moscow and Kieff

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information regarding the situation at Moscow and Kieff.

His Majesty's Government have received no information beyond that which has been published in the Press.

Eastern Siberia

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state the present position in Eastern Siberia and the relations between the Japanese and Russian Soviet Governments?

With regard to the first part of the question, the withdrawal of British officials, civil and military, from the interior, has rendered us dependent for information upon the British Consul-General at Vladivostock. It appears that, owing to collisions between Japanese and Russians, Japanese troops have been sent to reinforce their garrisons in Eastern Siberia; and that in certain towns the Japanese military authorities are in partial control. The Zemstvo Government, however, is still in power at Vladivostock, and, so far as we are aware, no change has been made in the civil administration of the country. What the exact relations are between the Japanese and Russian Soviet Governments at this moment, we have no means of knowing.

British Army

Staff Allowance (Indian Army)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, considering that officers of the Indian Army were deprived by the War Office of half their staff allowance after the first two months of captivity as prisoners of war solely on the ground that they received a higher rate of pay than British service officers, and that it has now been proved that these Indian Army officers did not receive a higher rate of pay than British service officers, he will cancel the Order issued under misapprehension and give the Indian Army officer prisoners of war the full pay that they are entitled to?

As I informed the hon. and gallant Member on the 9th March, I can add nothing to the previous replies on this subject.

Does that mean that the War Office, with premeditation, are trying to deprive these officers of the pay to which they are entitled?

Officers (Promotion)

asked whether the King's Regulations, Paragraph 133, Subparagraph 7, is still in force and was so during the War; and, if so, why did the Army Council refuse promotion to an officer in whose case that Regulation had not been complied with?

Sub-paragraph 7 of Paragraph 133, King's Regulations, was still in force during the War. In the case of the officer referred to promotion was not refused on account of any specific adverse report. His qualifications for promotion were carefully considered along with those of other officers in the Army Medical Service and Royal Army Medical Corps, by a selection board on two occasions, who arrived at the decision that this officer could not be promoted to higher rank.

Navy and Army Canteens Boards

asked the Secretery of State for War whether he has received a request to receive a deputation from over GO chambers of commerce, municipalities, and local authorities in connection with the activities of the Navy and Army Canteens Board; and whether he can state what reply he proposes to make to this request?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and I have already written to the Noble Lord suggesting a date for the deputation.

asked what financial assistance the Navy and Army Canteens Board has received from the Government since its inauguration in the way of loans, bank guarantees, or monetary advances.

Loans to the extent of £3,000,000 at interest were issued to the Navy and Army Canteens Board. These loans were temporary and have since been repaid.

asked the Secretary of State for War the names of the persons constituting the Committee appointed to inquire into the operation of the Navy and Army Canteen Board; what is the scope of their reference; are they confining their inquiries to official sources of information; and, pending the Report of this Committee, will he give instructions to the Canteen Board to prevent any further extension of their activities in the direction of Government trading?

The Committee consists of the Financial Secretary to the War Office, the Quartermaster-General, the Deputy-Chief of the Imperial General Staff, and the Suveyor-General of Supply, and representatives of the Navy and the Air Force. It has been appointed to consider what are the best arrangements for the conduct of canteen business in the future and does not propose to limit itself to official sources of information. There is no intention of extending the scope of canteen trading pending the Committee's Report.

Are we to understand that it is not the intention of the War Office to compete in any way with private traders?

I do not know that that would be quite correct. There is a certain competition so far as soldiers are concerned. It is intended to supply the soldiers.

As this reference to the Committee involves a very important question of State trading, could not the right hon. Gentleman improve the basis of the Committee by adding some Members of this House with business training?

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the Navy and Army Canteen Board use Government motor lorries for the despatch of their goods; and, if so, whether a similar privilege will be accorded to the trades with which they are in competition?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative and the second part does not therefore arise.

British Graves (Germany)

asked what plans are contemplated for marking and tending the graves of British soldiers who died in captivity in Germany during the War?

The Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries have an organisation in Germany which is inquiring into the condition of British graves in that country. They report that, as far as their experience goes, the graves are well cared for. The work of registration, identification ands marking is proceeding in accordance with the universal system of the Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries, but is necessarily somewhat retarded by the conditions prevailing in Germany.

Discharge by Purchase

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that, notwithstanding the repeated promises made by the War Office that permission to purchase discharge would be granted from the 1st of this month, the Northern Command had not on the 8th instant received the necessary orders to proceed with the granting of such discharges; and will he state how soon such orders will reach the various depots?

Orders were issued by telegram to all Commands on the 1st instant that discharge by purchase was re-opened from that date, and the Royal Warrant fixing the amounts to be paid was issued on the 5th May.

Seeing that the regimental depot had not received them on the 15th inst., will it be possible to issue the orders so that discharges may take place?

The orders have been issued. If the hon. Gentleman will give me any information as to the orders being delayed I will be obliged to him.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a letter from the Commandant of the Richmond depot dated the 8th, stating that he had not received the order?

It will greatly facilitate the matter if the hon. Gentleman will put himself into communication with the War Office on the subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have written him on the subject, and I have not had a reply?

No. I hope that my hon. Friend will bear with me, and I will endeavour to reply to him.

asked the Secretary of State for War how long it takes for an enlisted man to obtain his discharge by purchase; and if he is aware that Roy Vernon F. Balten, No. 622,011, 1st Reserve Battalion Royal Engineers, Chatham, on the 28th April applied for his discharge by purchase, having enlisted under a misunderstanding as to the conditions, and that no notice has up to now been taken of such application, and in consequence of the condition and the cold in the barracks he has been in hospital for the last fortnight?

There should be no undue delay now that the necessary orders have been issued. I am inquiring into the particular case which the hon. and gallant Member has brought to my notice.

Motor-Lorry Collision (Ramsgate)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on 29th June last L.R. No. 9,385, Dennis Stevens, whilst in a drunken state driving an Army motor lorry at Ramsgate, col- lided with a motor cycle and sidecar driven by Mr. W. J. Hitchman, of Thornton Heath; that owing to his injuries Mr. Hitchman was unable to attend to business for nearly eight months and is still suffering from the effects of a compound fracture of the leg; and that his wife sustained the permanent loss of sight in her left eye and is still suffering from injuries to the head, while his child, also a passenger, has had the use of both hands impaired; whether he is aware that Stevens was subsequently sentenced at the Sandwich quarter sessions to nine months' imprisonment and that, on the ground that at the time of the accident the Army lorry was being joy-ridden, the authorities have hitherto refused any compensation to Mr. Hitchman; and whether, in the circumstances, he can see his way to recommend an ex gratia payment to this family?

The hon. Member no doubt refers to an accident caused by a Dennis-Stevens lorry, driven by a Private Morrison who took out the lorry in contravention of orders. The question is under consideration, and I regret I am unable to make any statement at present.

Poison Gas (Dispersing Fan)

asked the Secretary of State for War if a fan for dispersing poison gas, invented by Mrs. Ayrton, was offered by her to the War Office in May, 1915; if it was rejected without having been seen by the Experiments Committee; when was it approved and adopted by the War Office; and how many had been supplied at the date of the Armistice?

In May, 1915, Mrs. Ayrton offered to the War Office a fan which she had specially designed for the purpose of repelling gas attacks. She was given every facility for demonstrating the efficacy of her invention, though the opinion was expressed by the scientific advisors of the War Office that the fan was not likely to prove of value for the purpose suggested. The proposal was brought to the notice of the Experiments Committee in France in an indirect manner in the beginning of August, 1915, and this committee, being quite unaware that a sample fan existed, or that it was being tested in this country, expressed an unfavourable opinion on it.

Subsequently trials under service conditions proved conclusively that the fan was worse than useless against a gas attack. It was found, however, that the invention might be useful at the front for a secondary and less important purpose not originally intended of clearing dugouts and trenches after a gas-cloud had passed, and it was accordingly adopted in February of 1916. The first issues to the service were made on 6th April, 1916. The total number supplied was 104,000.

Retired Pay (Officers)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether all Regular officers retired on account of wounds received during the present War are entitled to a minimum retired pay equal to the half-pay of their rank in accordance with Royal Warrant 1914, paragraph 564; and, if so, whether this half-pay is reckoned in accordance with Army Order 324, Table XV., of September, 1919?

I have been asked to reply. The Government accepted the recommendation of the Select Committee on Pensions that officers retired on account of wounds, or their disabilities due to service in the Great War, should be entitled to draw, as minimum retired pay, the half-pay of their rank, without any additions. Half-pay will be reckoned in accordance with the scale laid down in the Army Order referred to, and (in accordance with the recommendation of the Select Committee) officers drawing wound pensions will, under the revised Warrant which will shortly be issued, receive the 1914 Warrant rates plus wound pension, or such rate as, when added to the wound pension, will make up the new rate of half-pay or any higher rate of retired pay for which they may be eligible.

Are we to understand that the intention of the Government is altered and that the Ministry of Pensions deals with the retired pay of officers and not the War Office? Cannot I have a suitable answer, "Yes" or "No," to both parts of my question, either from the War Office or the Ministry of Pensions?

The answer given is an absolute statement of facts. If there is any point about which my hon. and gallant Friend is not clear perhaps he will inform me.

Education

asked the Secretary of State for War when he intends, in accordance with his promise, to circulate to the House information as to the schemes in operation for education in the Army at Home and the Army of Occupation?

A Report is being prepared, and I hope shortly to lay it upon the Table of the House.

Demobilised Officers

asked the Secretary of State for War the number of officers, with their respective ranks, above the rank of colonel who have been demobilised since the Armistice, also the number of officers below that rank who have been demobilised in the same period?

Since the Armistice the following officers above the rank of colonel have been retired: 6 Generals, 18 Lieut.-Generals, 73 Major-Generals, and, in addition, 2 Major-Generals have died. The total number of officers released from the Army up to the 15th May was 162,453.

Officers Employed at War Office

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will give the number of officers, with their respective ranks, above the rank of colonel employed at the War Office; and the total annual amount of their pay and allowances?

The number of officers employed at the War Office in posts above those pertaining to the rank of colonel is:

Demobilisation

asked the Secretary of State for War why, in view of the fact that all conscripts have now been demobilised, men who voluntarily enlisted are still retained in the Army?

Orders were issued in March for the despatch from their station or theatre of war by 31st March for demobilisation of all men serving on duration of War engagements, subject to the necessary transport being available, with the exception of those who:

Senior Officers (Retirement)

asked the Secretary of State for War if steps will be taken by granting pensions either after slightly reduced length of service or at a somewhat earlier age to induce the retirement of senior officers whose chances of further promotion are extremely slight, and thus absorb a considerable number of those junior to them who are at present surplus to the establishment?

Surplus Officers

asked the Secretary of State for War how many officers of the Regular Army there are surplus to the establishment; how many of them are on half-pay; whether he can say how many retired, Special Reserve, Territorial, and temporary officers are still being employed; what is the approximate annual cost of such officers; and whether, in view of the fact that over 18 months have elapsed since the Armistice, drastic steps will be taken to reduce such employed officers?

I am having this information prepared, and will write to the hon. and gallant Member as soon as I am in a position to give him a detailed answer.

Ex-Service Men

War Office Clerks

asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the special demands on our consideration of the ex-service men, he will reconsider his decision as to the pay of ex-service clerks in the War Office who are under 21 and who have fought in the War, and will give them the same rate of pay as if they were over 21?

As I explained in the answer I gave my hon. Friend on the 11th of this month, the War Office in this matter follows the rule prescribed for the public service generally, and I am afraid I am not in a position to depart from it.

Would it not be possible to treat these men who have fought in the War on a somewhat different footing from civilians who have never fought?

Will my right hon. Friend bring the case of these ex-service men to the notice of the Treasury?

Ministry of Pensions (Regent's Park Hutments)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he can state how many women and how many discharged soldiers are being employed in the offices of the Ministry of Pensions in the Regent's Park hutments?

The total number of women and ex-service men employed in the Regent's Park huts is 4,368 and 10, respectively. It should be explained that the Pension Issue Office, which is partly accommodated at Regent's Park, is, in the main, a woman's branch of the Ministry.

Will my hon. and gallant Friend say why it is not possible to give employment to some of the thousands of ex-service men who are now out of work, in place of these women?

Preference is given in all male employments to ex-service men, and the number on the male staff of the Ministry of Pensions who are ex-service men is 91 per cent.

Is there any particular work that these women do that ex-service men could not equally well do?

Small Holdings (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether any ex-service men have been promised small holdings on the farm of Maryfield, upon the Terregles estate; and whether, in the event of this particular farm not being available for small holdings, adequate compensation will be paid to these applicants for any loss they may sustain owing to the purchase of equipment and stock preparatory to entry on the 28th May?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. I am informed that one of the applicants, through some misunderstanding, made certain arrangements involving vacation of his present house at this term in anticipation of his selection by the Board of Agriculture for Scotland. While no responsibility attaches to the Board, I understand that they are in a position to obviate any inconvenience to the applicant on account of his action by offering him a house and holding on Maryfield.

Peace Treaties

Armenia

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will state for what reason it is necessary that British troops should be kept in touch with the Armenian Republic in the Caucasus; whether the camp at Bakouba, in Asia Minor, is still maintained; and, if so, for how long it is intended that Great Britain should be protector-general of the Armenians, wherever dwelling, and for whatever reason at variance with their neighbours?

As regards the first part of the question, according to Clause 11 of the Turkish Armistice, which still obtains, Turkish troops had to withdraw behind the pre-war Russo-Turkish frontier. Recent information shows that the Turks are infringing this Clause of the Armistice, and it is necessary that the Allies should be kept informed of the movement of Turkish troops towards Persia. There are no Allied troops in Caucasian Armenia. As regards the remainder of the question, I have nothing to add to the answer given to the hon. Member yesterday on this subject.

What prospect is there of this continuous expenditure, coming to an end? Is not the position being established that the Armenians are perpetual protégés of the British taxpayer?

No one is more anxious to be lightened of this burden, which adds nothing to the strength of the British Army and comes on the War Office Estimates to a very large extent, than I am.

Do I understand from the right hon Gentleman that our troops are under an obligation to maintain the integrity of the Persian frontier?

I cannot he expected to answer a question like that without notice. Full notice should be given and the question should be addressed to my right hon. Friend.

Palestine

asked the Prime Minister if he will state when the present military administration in Palestine will be superseded by civil administration; and when the publication of the name of the new High Commissioner in Palestine may be expected.

I cannot give any precise date in answer to the hon. Member, but a civil administration will be set up as soon as possible. It must be remembered that the exact form of mandate for Palestine has not yet been approved.

Am I to understand from that Civil Administration will not come into operation until the mandate has actually been drafted and agreed upon?

I think not. Obviously we cannot take definite steps until the Treaty has been accepted.

Africa (Mandates)

asked the Prime Minister whether the terms of the mandates for Tanganyika territory, Togoland, and Cameroons will be decided by the next meeting of the Supreme Council of the Allies at Spa, and then submitted forthwith to the Council of the League of Nations, in order that the civil administration and commercial development of these territories may be commenced without further delay?

I hope that it may be possible to decide this question at one of the forthcoming meetings of the Supreme Council. The instruments defining the terms of these mandates would then be submitted to the Council of the League of Nations with as little delay as possible.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Supreme Council, and not the League, is the proper authority for drafting these mandates?

Have any steps been taken to ascertain the view of the notables as to their wishes in accordance with the pledges of the Prime Minister in January last?

Will arrangements be made for a representative of the Foreign Office to attend the next meting of the Supreme Council?

Royal Gunpowder Factory, Gretna

asked the Secretary of State for War if he will state what is the estimated cost of the removal of the necessary machinery from the Royal Gunpowder Factory to Gretna, the instalment of this machinery at Gretna, and the necessary alterations of buildings to receive this machinery?

I would refer the hon. Member to my written reply on the 5th instant to the hon. and gallant Member for Epping.

Territorial Army (Adjdtants)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will state the rate of pay and allowances to an adjutant of the Territorial Army; whether it varies according to rank; and whether officers of the Regular Army and officers of the Territorial Army are treated on the same footing in this respect?

Regular officers appointed adjutants of the Territorial Force receive the ordinary pay and allowances of their substantive rank with additional pay at the rate of 2s. 6d. a day where provided in the pay warrant. The rate of pay and allowances varies with the rank held. Territorial Force officers duly appointed to the full-time appointment of adjutant receive the same emoluments as Regular officers so appointed.

Housing

Georgetown, Renfrewsrire

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the position of certain tenants, some of whom are ex-service men, of houses at Georgetown, Renfrew-shire, and who are under notice to quit on the 28th May; and will he state what action he proposes to take in these cases?

I am calling for a report and will write to the hon. and gallant Member as soon as possible.

Business Premises, Glasgow

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether his attention has been called to a case of business premises in Glasgow where 24 tenants have received notice of an increase in rent ranging from 100 per cent. to over 300 per cent., the tenants being required to do all repairs; whether he is aware that such increases are often preceded by the sale of the property at greatly inflated values, the vendor escaping all Excess Profits Duty and Unearned Increment Duty; whether he is aware that this practice is producing a crisis in the business world, and is driving out of business many of the smaller men to the advantage of firms which command large capital; and whether the Government proposes to take any steps to bring such cases within the scope either of the Rent Restriction Act or the Profiteering Act?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. With regard to the last part, I regret that it is not yet possible to make any statement.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that as these instances are not isolated, but represent a general practice, such general practice constitutes a special emergency?

I am sorry I cannot add anything to what I said before. As regard this question, there are great difficulties, and we are considering them.

Rent Restriction Bill (Scotland)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to a case in Cambuslang in which a tenant has received notice to quit a house containing a sitting-room, two bedrooms, and a, kitchen, occupied by himself and his wife and three children, in order to admit a new tenant with his wife and no children, and in which the alternative accommodation offered is a sitting-room, one bedroom, and a kitchen in a tenement in the city; whether the tenant is protected by existing legislation; and, if not, whether a Clause to protect the tenant in such a case will be included in the forthcoming Rent Restriction Bill?

The case referred to has been brought to the notice of my right hon. Friend, but there is nothing in the information received to show that the protection afforded by the existing Statutes has proved inadequate.

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware of the consternation that has been created in the business centre of Glasgow in consequence of the action of owners of business properties having increased rents varying in some cases from 100 to 400 per cent.; whether he is aware that these increases are general, and that many of the tenants of these premises have been in occupancy during the past 40 or 50 years, and are now threatened with extinction; whether it is the intention of his Department of the Government to allow this system to continue; and, if not, whether he will introduce legislation immediately, limiting the power of owners of this class of property to either sell or increase the rents of these busi- ness premises, in the same manner as is provided in the Rent Restrictions Act applying to occupants of dwelling-houses?

Cases of the kind referred to have been brought to the notice of the Scottish Office. I regret I am not in a position as yet to supplement the statements made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland in the course of Debate on Friday last.

Would it not have been better that these men should have been here on Thursday night to have dealt with it, instead of taking up the time of the Rouse now?

Summer Residences, Scotland

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that, excluding the burghs of Peebles and Innerleithen, out of a total of 1,043 working-class houses in the County of Peebles, 57 are let to people who occupy them as summer quarters only, these houses being closed during the winter months; whether he can give the figures for South Midlothian; and whether the Government will take immediate steps to secure that these houses will be available for working people until the requisite number of houses are built?

I understand that the position in the County of Peebles is substantially as stated in the first part of the question. As regards South Midlothian, I have not exact figures, but am informed that out of approximately 4,800 working-class houses about 86 are occupied only during the summer months. I may remind my right hon. Friend that local authorities have power under Sections 11 and 29 of the Rousing and Town Planning (Scotland) Act, 1919, to acquire such houses. The Scottish Board of Health are prepared to consider any proposals put before them by local authorities for this purpose.

Will my hon. Friend give directions to the local authorities where similar conditions obtain to those indicated in the question—and is he not aware that there are many such—to take action under the Act that he has suggested?

I am aware there is a number of cases, and I will bring the right hon. Gentleman's question to the notice of my right hon. Friend.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is a crying evil in other parts of Scotland too, and will he issue similar instructions in every case?

Sewers, Roehampton

asked the Minister of Health whether, for the past 30 years, it has been the invariable practice in London to bed sewers in concrete, both above and below; and whether, on the ground of economy, he is objecting to, this necessary precaution being taken on the housing estate of the London County Council at Roehampton?

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Health is advised that the bedding of sewers in concrete is only necessary, in special circumstances, and he has therefore suggested that it should be dispensed with, except when these special circumstances exist.

Have the London County Council made any representations upon this matter, and do you still ignore them?

Official Journal "Housing" (Cost)

asked the Minister of Health what has been the cost of the editorial and clerical work upon the 21 numbers issued of the fortnightly official journal, "Housing," and the cost of the paper used, in addition to the £1,110 spent upon printing; how many persons are engaged upon this editorial and clerical work, whole or part time; and what are they paid?

It is difficult to arrive at a definite figure for the editorial and clerical work in connection with "Housing," as this is carried out by officials, all of whom, with the exception of one clerk at 59s. a week, are engaged for most of their time on other work. Including a proportion of the salaries of other officials, an outside figure for the cost of editorial and clerical work would be £28 per issue for the first six issues, when the editorial work was much heavier until the preparation of the journal had been well established, and £10 per issue for the subsequent issues. My right hon. Friend is informed that the total cost of the paper for the 21 issues was £440.

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say who is responsible for the expressions of opinion which are made in these journals issued by Government Departments?

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman inform the Rouse what is the circulation of these publications?

Can the hon. and gallant Gentleman say the number employed in producing it?

General Mannerheim

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can state why a conference recently took place in Berlin between General Mannerheim and the British Military Mission; and whether any arrangement, official or unofficial, has been made by the Government or officers of this Majesty's Army as a result of this conference?

No such conference has taken place, and the last part of the question does not therefore arise.

May I ask whether, when General Mannerheim arrives here, there will be any conference with him at the War Office?

I have no idea of the course that will be followed in future. It would be impossible to attempt to forecast it in any way.

Royal Air Force

Soldiers' Wives, Accommodation, Egypt

asked the Secretary of State for Air what arrangements have been made in accordance with promises given to enable the wives of non-commis- sioned officers and men serving in the Royal Air Force in Egypt to join their husbands; and whether accommodation is provided in that country?

As stated in the reply given on the 9th March (OFFICIAL REPORT, Col. 1080) to the hon. and gallant Member for North Bradford, the question of a Married Establishment for the Royal Air Force is under consideration, and efforts are being made to obtain a decision as soon as possible.

The matter has already been a very long time under consideration, and the delay is causing very great inconvenience to those concerned. Will the right hon. Gentleman hasten things?

Handley-Page Aeroplane

asked the Secretary of State for Air whether there is any intention on the part of the Government to observe secrecy in the matter of the Handley-Page wing improvement, or whether any facts in possession of the Government will be made public for the benefit of aviation in all countries?

The invention in question is a private one, and is the property of the Handley-Page Company. Such information regarding the design as is in the possession of the Air Ministry was communicated by the firm confidentially, and I am not prepared to take the step which the hon. and gallant Member suggests.

Motor Cars (Speed Limit)

asked the Home Secretary how many convictions have taken place in the Metropolitan police area for infringement of the Motor Car Acts, when no danger was alleged, during the period January to the end of April, 1920; how many in which danger was alleged; and how many cases of murder, assault, and theft have been brought to the notice of the police in the same area during the same period in which the criminals have not been apprehended and brought to justice?

During the four months there were 5,511 prosecutions under the Motor Car Acts and Orders. It is impossible without reviewing the evidence in each case to say how many were cases of actual and how many of only possible danger, but I may say that 362 were charges of reckless, negligent, or dangerous driving or of failing to stop at the request of a police officer in uniform. In the same period there was only one case of murder in which no arrest has been made, besides three cases of death caused in procuring abortion. There were 414 cases of larceny in which no arrest has been made. I am sorry I can give no figures of assaults not followed by prosecution.

How many convictions have been recorded against the hon. and gallant Member who put the question?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many murders have been committed by motorists exceeding the speed limit in the area and during the period mentioned?

asked the Rome Secretary whether the police force are employed outside the Metropolitan area in endeavouring to time the speed of motor vehicles; and, if so, if he can state how many were so employed on Saturday the 8th instant?

All police forces are concerned in enforcing the law limiting the speed of motor vehicles, but I am quite unable to say how many of them were specially engaged on this duty at a particular time.

Ireland

Prisoners' Treatment, Wormwood Scrubs

asked the Home Secretary whether he has received a letter addressed to him by the hon. Member for North Tipperary complaining of the ill-treatment of certain of the Irish prisoners in Wormwood Scrubs prison on the 26th and 27th April, 1920; whether he has investigated the complaints; and whether he has any statement to make?

I have received the letter to which the hon. and gallant Member refers. The allegations it contained have been inquired into by the prison authorities. I have nothing to add to my reply of last Thursday to the hon. Member for the Hemsworth Division.

Are we to understand that the allegations made by the hon. Member for North Tipperary (Mr. J. MacDonagh) are without foundation?

Have the Government yet decided when the judicial inquiry into the circumstances of these arrests will take place?

Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the report of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite to the Member for North Tipperary about these prisoners when they were playing billiards in the prison?

In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith, I cannot give a definite answer, but we are taking immediate steps to set up the court.

Irish Republican Brotherhood

asked the Prime Minister whether he is acquainted with the constitution, objects, and organisation of the Irish Republican Brotherhood; whether he can state who is the president of that body and who are the members of its Supreme Council; and what action has been taken by the Government to prevent the carrying out of its murderous designs?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. I am not in a position to state who is at present the head of the organisation, or who are the Supreme Council. The police authorities both in England and Ireland are taking all steps in their power to prevent the carrying out of their designs.

Denunciation of Murders

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the attention of the Government has been called to an article by Dr. Daniel Cohalan, Roman Catholic bishop of Cork in the "Cork Examiner" newspaper, of 30th April; and whether, seeing that it is in effect an appeal to Sinn Fein to stop murdering policemen and to devote attention to prominent Unionists, he will say what action is to be taken in regard to this incitement to crime?

I have read the article referred to. It was a very direct and sincere denunciation of the murders of policemen, and I do not think that the reference in it to Unionists suggests the sinister motive which my hon. Friend sees in it.

Prison Service

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is now in a position to state the result of the further correspondence regarding 11 first-class warders in the Irish prison service who have been without any increase in pay since April, 1916, and whose case, it was stated by the General Prisons Board, was under consideration in April, 1919?

The Treasury have ruled that they are unable to modify their decision in regard to the authorised scale for Class I. Warders (Grade II.), 48s. by Is. to 56s. per week, as they cannot agree to a higher maximum being assigned than that granted to officers employed on ' similar duties in the English Prisons Service. The Treasury agree to officers now in the grade retaining their present scales with allowances on re-grading under the new scales in any case in which the officer's present remuneration exceeds that to which he would be entitled under the new scheme.

Deported Germans

asked the Rome Secretary whether he will ascertain from the Advisory Committee appointed under the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, the principles on which they act in granting or refusing applications from deported Germans with British-born wives or children to return to this country; whether, in considering these applications, they take into account the probability of the returned Germans competing in business and employment with British-born subjects and ex-service men; and whether he will inform the Rouse of the results of his inquiries?

I have consulted the Advisory Committee on this question and the Chairman permits me to say that the answer to the second paragraph is in the affirmative, and that the Committee consider also all the merits of the cases, including such questions as the present means of livelihood of the British-born wives and children and the risk of their falling on the rates if the husband and father cannot return to support them.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me that the return to this country of hundreds of these deported Germans will not interfere with the business or employment of British-born persons?

The Chairman authorises me to say that he is doing his best to pre, vent anything of the kind.

Germany

War Criminals (Trial)

50 & 51.

asked the Prime Minister, (1) whether the Government has yet decided what action it will take against those Germans now in its hands and charged with adopting methods contrary to the usages of war;

(2) whether he can now make any further statement as to the trial of those German camp commandants charged with brutality to our prisoners of war?

asked the Prime Minister what progress has been made in the arrangements for the trial at Leipzig of the German war criminals; and when those trials are likely to commence.

I can add nothing to replies which I gave yesterday to similar questions.

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

Carlisle

asked the Prime Minister whether he has received a resolution from the directors of the Carlisle Central Conservative Club Company, Limited, calling upon the Government to take whatever steps are necessary for the cancellation of the order of 12th February, 1920, issued by the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), and to see that in the contemplated Licensing Act the people of Carlisle and district are not subjected to any restrictions that do not apply to the rest of the United Kingdom, and repudiating the statement made to the effect that the people of Carlisle are on the whole very well satisfied with the action of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), as unjustified and based upon the reports and opinions of interested parties and not upon the true facts; and, if so, what has been the disposal of such resolution?

Restrictions

asked the Prime Minister why the restrictions, imposed as a war-time measure, forbidding delivery of beer, wines, or spirits before 12 noon by means of a basket or truck, but permitting delivery by motor or horse-drawn vehicle during that time, forbidding family brewers and wine merchants to collect cash from customers for excisable liquors supplied, forbidding them to accept cash on delivery for excisable liquors supplied, forbidding them to despatch any excisable liquors unless they have been previously ordered at the licensed premises only, forbidding them to take from a customer a repeat order When delivering excisable liquors to him, forbidding them to call upon customers to obtain orders or to collect cash for excisable liquors sold, and forbidding them to supply customers with order forms are still in existence; and when are they going to be removed?

Poland

Ukraine Convention

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any knowledge of a convention signed between Poland and the Ukraine under which, as a basis for joint action against the Bolsheviks, Poland is to have an outlet to the Black Sea and virtual control of the railroads through the wheat country, and in return she pledges military support to the Ukraine for a period of 10 years; and whether the Government can accordingly see its way to instructing the British representative on the Council of the League of Nations to refer the matter to the Council at its next meeting, in view of the menace to the peace of the world?

The terms of the agreement which has been signed between Poland and the Ukraine have not been communicated to His Majesty's Government, who are not, therefore, in a position to take a decision in the sense suggested.

May I ask whether His Majesty's diplomatic representatives in Poland are not provided with the information, and how is it that the Government is so ignorant of the position of affairs there?

That is hardly fair to His Majesty's representative in Poland, as the two countries have declined to make it public.

Border States

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any knowledge of a Treaty between the Border States from the Arctic Ocean to the Black Sea under which Poland, as a compensation for her help, is to receive East Galicia; and whether the Government can accordingly see its way to instructing the British representative on the Council of the League of Nations to refer the matter to the Council at its next meeting, in view of the menace to the peace of the world involved in this proposed breach of the rights of nationality?

Surplus Stores

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any surplus stores or munitions have been disposed of to the Polish Government; and, if so, how and in what form payment is being made for them?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House on this subject yesterday.

May I ask a reply to the very simple question, "how and in what form payment is being made for them"?

I have already told the hon. Gentleman I can add nothing to the reply given by the Leader of the House.

Yes, but may I ask why the right hon. Gentleman refuses; as it is, I do not think it is against the public interest?

Finance Bill

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his statement that he is adopting the Report of the Income Tax Commission means that the new provisions, or any of them, are to take effect in this present financial year ending March, 1921?

The recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Income Tax, which are embodied in the Finance Bill now before Parliament, are intended to take effect for the present Income Tax year of assessment commencing on the 6th April, 1920. These recommendations deal with the system of differentiation and graduation, of the Income Tax and the question of Double Income Tax within the Empire. As regards the various other recommendations of the Royal Commission which it has not been possible to deal with in the Bill, I would refer the hon. Member to the reply (a copy of which I am sending him) which I gave on this subject to the hon. Member for the Wallasey Division on the 6th instant.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in view of paragraph 308 of the Report of the Royal Commission on Income Tax which recommends that premises owned and occupied by a charitable body be exempt from taxation, he can see his way to give immediate effect to this recommendation, and thereby relieve many struggling charitable institutions from a very heavy burden?

I cannot see my way to deal in advance of the Revenue Bill, which it is proposed to submit to Parliament at a later stage, with the particular recommendation to which my hon. Friend refers or with other recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Income Tax which are not already being dealt with in the Budget. In this connection I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer (a copy of which I am sending him) which I gave on the 6th instant to the hon. Member for Wallasey.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the official estimate of the yield for Income Tax purposes from the taxation of the profits of the co-operative societies after deduction of all dividends and bonuses?

I assume that by dividends and bonuses the hon. Member means dividends and bonuses on purchases and not dividends on share capital. On this basis, and assuming that the present Budget proposals were otherwise unaltered, the increased yield of Income Tax which would result from the taxation of the profits of co-operative societies in the manner suggested is estimated at £125,000 a year.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take into account the very large number of claims which Bill be sent in by members of co-operative societies who are under the Income Tax limit?

Beer and Champagne

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to a speech at Man- chester by Dr. Sim Wallace, late lecturer on dental surgery and pathology at the London hospitals, declaring that while cocoa and chocolate were not beverages for cleansing the mouth, tea, coffee and beer were, and that dry champagne was an excellent mouth wash; and whether, in the interests of public health, he will reconsider his excise proposals affecting beer and champagne, with a view to a reduction in duties?

May I ask whether lysol would not be an effective substitute for beer and champagne as a mouth-wash, and whether it would not be equally effective for cleansing writing material?

Indemnity Bill

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the amount by which he estimates the expenditure of the year will be increased by the De Keyser judgment and the Government's Amendments to the Indemnity Bill?

It is not possible at present to give any estimate of the extra expenditure which would be incurred during the current financial year, but the best information available will be given during the Committee stage to the Select Committee dealing with the Bill.

Seeing that the memorandum which prefaced the Indemnity Bill purports to give an estimate of this particular sum, why not have some revision in face of this judgment?

Currency Issues

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what, if any, has been the fall in issue of British paper money between the periods of 1917 to 1918 and 1918 to 1919; and what, if any, has been the increase of issue of silver and gold coinage during the periods mentioned?

With the hon. Member's permission I will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the figures in answer to this question.

The following is the statement referred to:—

I. The active circulation of notes in the United Kindom was approximately:—

Currency Notes.

Bank of England.

£

£

31st Dec., 1917

212,450,950

46,591,020

31st Dec., 1918

323,240,501

70,190,250

31st Dec., 1919

356,152,022

87,349,990

These figures exclude Bank of England notes held in the Currency Notes Reserve Account and notes issued by Scottish and Irish banks of issue which are largely covered by Currency Notes.

II. The net issues of silver coin in the United Kingdom were as follows:—

During the calendar year 1918

£7,913,940

During the calendar year 1919

£3,211,950

III. No gold coin was issued during these two years.

National Insurance Act (Unemployment Fund)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will give particulars of the various securities held by the Commissioners for the unemployment fund, and referred to in the account recently published by them under Section 92 (3) of the National Insurance Act, 1911, together with the price at which they were purchased?

I am circulating the figures for which the hon. Member asks.

The following are the figures mentioned:

AMOUNT AND COST PRICE OF THE SECURITIES HELD BY THE NATIONAL DEBT COMMISSIONERS FOR THE UNEMPLOYMENT FUND AS AT THE 31ST MARCH, 1920.

Description of Security.

Amount held.

Cost price.

£

£

2½% Consols

495,000

376,653

Exchequer Bonds 3% (1930)

330,000

305,043

Exchequer Bonds 5% (1922)

3,367,000

3,365,667

Exchequer Bonds 5¾% (1925)

3,140,300

3,140,300

National War Bonds 5% (1922)

3,799,800

3,799,630

National War Bonds 5% (1923, April)

2,072,100

2,071,097

National War Bonds 3% (1923, September)

1,331,700

1,330,092

National War Bonds 5% (1924, February)

632,500

652,491

National War Bonds 5% (1925, April)

2,500

2,493

National War Bonds 5% (1927)

350,900

348,924

National War Bonds 5% (1928, April)

51,000

50,750

National War Bonds 5% (1928, September)

69,000

68,827

National War Bonds 5% (1929)

10,000

9,981

Treasury Bills

4,311,000

4,244,424

Cash uninvested

656,285

The last published Return (Paper 69 of 1920) referred to the year ending 31st March, 1919.

Government Offices (Staffs and Accommodations)

Ministry of Pensions

asked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware that Chester Rut, Regent's Park, in which many hundreds of girl clerks are housed to do important work, is badly infested with rats, bugs and fleas, and that the clerks cannot use the blinds for fear of disturbing these pests; and, having regard to the need for the continuation of this clerical work for some years, whether the hut system can be abolished?

A few instances of the presence of vermin in the Chester Gate huts have been reported, but the huts have been carefully examined, and there is no evidence that they are badly infested, as suggested. The blinds have been removed, but no vermin have been found in them. My right hon. Friend, the First Commissioner of Works, has the matter in hand, and he is causing the premises to be cleansed thoroughly. The continuation of the hut system is a matter for the First Commissioner of Works, but I understand that it is not possible to obtain more suitable accommodation at present.

In view of our experience during five years of war, should not the Ministry of Pensions consider the advisability of a gas attack?

Burton Court, Chelsea

asked the Minister of Pensions whether, in view of the fact that the staff at Burton Court, Chelsea, is in excess of requirements, he can state when a portion of the ground at present occupied will be given up?

There is no intention at present to give up any portion of the premises at Burton Court, occupied by this Ministry. Such accommodation as may become vacant there by reduction of staff will be used by staff transferred from other premises (for instance, the Tate Gallery), the release of which is more urgently required.

Is it not extremely important to release an open space in London, especially an open space where the soldiers used to play cricket and enjoy themselves?

I am quite aware of the value of Burton Court from the point of view put forward by my hon. and gallant Friend.

Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that this site was only lent to the Government for the duration of the War, and that there is very great feeling in the whole of London against its continued occupation?

St. James's Park (Buildings)

asked the First Commissioner of Works when St. James's Park will be cleared of the buildings erected there on account of the existence of a state of War?

This is the fourth question of a similar nature which has been put to me this Session. I must point out again to the hon. and gallant Member that I have to find accommodation in London for Government staffs exceeding the pre-War establishments by 50,000; that six new Ministries have been created for which no permanent offices have been erected; and that the policy pursued since the Armistice has been to release hotels, public museums, and institutions, and requisitioned premises as speedily as possible. In view of the great difficulty of obtaining accommodation, and bearing in mind that the annual rental value of the buildings in St. James's Park is at least £80,000, I regret that, much as I should like to do so, I cannot hold out any prospect of being able to dispense with this accommodation for some time to come.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether a distinct pronouncement on his part that the amenity of this City must be preserved, and its parks secured for the use of the public, might not have a very good effect in forcing the diminution of these superabundant Ministries?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how many officials are quartered in St. James's Park?

Why is it necessary to keep a building for the War Trade Intelligence Department, which has now ceased to exist, and would it not be a good thing if the visa passport system were abolished?

Is it not a fact that one of the largest of these park buildings is a canteen, and not an office at all?

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Naval and Military Medical Men

asked the Minister of Pensions if he will state how many retired regular naval and military medical men are employed by the Ministry in the Dublin area on a sessional basis; will he say what number of sessions were allotted to each during 1919; whether one of those employed is a doctor who, during the War, was engaged as a civil surgeon on part-time duty at 21s. per day, and kept his public appointments and private practice, and in spite of this has been constantly employed on sessional engagements since the Pensions Board started; and whether he is aware that other medical men, who sacrificed public appointments and private practice by reason of war service, cannot find employment or are only partially employed on a sessional basis?

There are six retired regular naval or military medical men appointed as assessors on sessional basis on the Medical Boards in the Dublin area. It is not possible to state with complete accuracy the number of sessions allotted to each assessor during 1919 as the records for January, 1919, were unfortunately destroyed by fire. There is no retired naval or military medical man employed on a sessional basis in the Dublin area, to whom the third part of the question applies. Qualified assessors who have served in the Forces during the late War are given employment on the Boards situated in the areas in which they can most readily attend.

Payment Dockets, Dublin

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he has received any complaints from pensioners in Dublin owing to the withdrawal of their payment dockets from post offices without any notice or provision being made to ensure prompt payment at the various offices to which these accounts are transferred; and if he will have inquiries made into this matter?

My right hon. Friend has no knowledge of the complaints referred to; but if the hon. Member will furnish particulars of the cases in which allowance books have been withdrawn from post offices in Dublin without proper provision being made for the payment of pension, he will have the matter carefully inquired into.

5th King's Own Scottish Borderers (T. Terrell)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that Thomas Terrell, No. 2,952, D Company, 5th King's Own Scottish Borderers, residing at 11, Churchyard Road, Tipton, was recently discharged from Northfield Hospital for dental treatment; that the local medical referee said he was fit for light work, but the court of referees, Walsall, refused to allow him unemployment benefit on the ground of his being unfit for work; whether he is aware that he is in receipt of 27s. 6d. per week pension, and that six persons have to be provided for; and, if so, if he will cause inquiry to be made with a view to Terrell receiving an adequate pension?

My right hon. Friend is making inquiries into this case and will communicate with the hon. Member as soon as possible.

Can the hon. and gallant Member facilitate this, so that this man can receive some further financial assistance?

I understand the question has only just been put down. We communicated at once, and it is not possible to give full particulars until we have the necessary information.

Ports and Harbours (Regulations)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller if he will state what steps are being taken to make modern and free from unreasonable application the rules and regulations of ports and harbours in the United Kingdom which in many cases causes improper detention of shipping in such ports and harbours?

I have been asked to reply to this question. I am not aware of any rules and regulations at ports and harbours which cause improper detention of shipping, but if the hon. Member will give me particulars I will examine the matter further.

Scotland

Farm Domestic Training (Craibstone Farm, Aberdeen)

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether the farm domestic training scheme for training young women for the land which has been carried out at Craibstone Farm, Aberdeen, has been a success; whether the scheme is to be permitted to continue; and, if not, will he state the reasons for abandoning it?

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether a farm-domestic training scheme for girls was started in February last at Craibstone Farm, near Aberdeen; whether since then 42 girls have been trained or are in training; whether the scheme is to be abandoned on 30th June next; and whether, in view of the fact that there is a serious shortage of properly trained female labour for rural work in the North of Scotland and that the scheme is heartily endorsed by the farming community, he will take immediate steps to ensure the permanence of the facilities for training which are now offered?

I have been asked to answer these questions. I would refer my hon. Friends to the reply given yesterday to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for Stirling and Clackmannan, in the course of which I explained that the training scheme referred to was in every way, including attendance, a success, but that, as at present arranged, these courses will terminate on 30th June next.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why they should terminate these courses? Is he aware that there is a considerable body of agricultural opinion which thinks it is false economy to terminate them, and will he reconsider the matter?

It is the decision of the Government, but I am quite prepared to put my hon. and gallant Friend's view before the Government.

Teachers (Additional Pensions)

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he will state the amount of funds accumulated under the pension scheme in force prior to 1919 from which the additional benefits have been given to retired teachers in Scotland?

It is not possible yet to state with precision how much will remain in the Scottish Teachers' Superannuation Fund after the teachers' contributions have all been returned; but it is estimated that approximately there will be £1,300,000, from the interest on which additional benefits are available for teachers who had retired before the new superannuation scheme came into force.

Church of Scotland

asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of the forthcoming legislation, he can state what was the total value of the stipends of the Church of Scotland for the year 1919, or for the most recent year for which he has figures?

According to the Teinds, etc. (Scotland) Return No. 146 of 1907 the annual stipends out of teinds amounted in all at that date to £234,706. These values have, of course, risen in recent years, but I understand that no statistics later than 1907 are available.

Rave not the statistics been published for some years since then in the Church of Scotland Year Book?

I understand not. I have seen the last publication, and there are no statistics given.

( by Private Noticed ) asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland is now sitting, he can say if the Government has reached any conclusion with regard to the request signed by a very large number of Scottish Members and addressed to him to the effect that the Government should introduce a Measure recognising the draft Articles prepared by the Church of Scotland as a basis of union?

Yes, Sir. The Government have carefully considered the request and they have also received intimation of an agreement between representatives of the Church of Scotland and the United Free Church to the same effect. The Government accordingly hope either to introduce or to give facilities for a Measure in the direction indicated, without avoidable delay.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a very large number of people in Scotland who think that this Bill, which goes very much further than the English Enabling Bill, should be introduced into the Rouse in the same way, and ought to be discussed before the Government make up their minds as to whether or not they will adopt it as a Government Bill?

My recollection is that the Enabling Bill came to the Rouse in the ordinary way and that the House discussed it; that is what we propose to do in this case.

I am not quite sure about that. May I ask, to make quite sure, is it the proposal of the Government that the Scottish Enabling Bill should be introduced in the same way as the English Bill was introduced, and that afterwards, having been discussed as the English Bill was discussed, the Government will decide what line they will take in regard to it?

I do not quite see the distinction. The question is whether or not the Government will take up the Bill as a Government Bill, or as a Bill introduced by a private Member. My reply shows that we have not yet decided that point.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Scotland there is a strong measure of support for the idea that a Bill of this kind should be brought in by the Church of Scotland?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the General Assembly of the United Free Church of Scotland has not given its consent to the draft articles as a basis of union?

I would not like to get into controversial questions between churches by way of question and answer. We have received a request from representatives of the United Free Church to take action in the matter.

Food Supplies

Yeast

asked the Minister of Food if he is aware of any combination, amalgamation, or trust among the three or four large distilleries engaged in the manufacture of yeast in the United Kingdom with the view to maintaining a fixed selling price for that commodity; that 8s. 2d. per 7-lb. bag is charged to British buyers, whilst the cost to foreign purchasers of a similar quantity, of equal quality, is several shillings less; whether it is the practice of the amalgamation to threaten the withholding of supplies from any British retailer in the event of his selling the yeast at a price below the fixed rate; and can he see his way to inquire into the matter, having regard to any effect the fixation of price may have in enhancing the cost of the people's food?

I have been asked to reply. I was not aware of the combination mentioned in the question, but if the hon. Member will supply me with the names of the distilleries to which he refers, I will bring the matter to the attention of the Central Committee established under the Profiteering Act.

Sugar

asked the Minister of Food if he can state what steps he has taken to meet the representations from the Radstock Co-operative and Indusrial Society, Limited, calling attention to the fact that sugar for the West of England is being sent to Radstock from Liverpool, resulting in delay and extra cost in freightage; and whether it would be more advantageous in the public interest to use the Bristol ports near at hand, which deal so largely with sugar?

The present rate of issue of sugar is being met by the output from British refineries, of which there are none in Bristol. Such supplies of imported refined sugar as are in this country are being held as reserve stocks.

"National Food Journal."

asked the Minister of Food whether the official statement that £4,500 was spent upon the published 51 numbers of the "National Food Journal" includes all editorial and publishing as well as printing expenses and cost of paper; if not, what are these items of expenditure; how many persons are engaged upon the editorial and clerical work, whole or part time; and what are they paid?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The second part does not, therefore, arise. As regards the third and fourth parts, the "National Food Journal" is edited by one of the two journalists who compose the Publicity Branch of the Ministry of Food. It takes up a very small part of his time, and, indeed, most of the work is done in overtime, for which no payment is made. The only clerical work is in connection with distribution, carried out by the Stationery Office, the cost of which is included in the sum mentioned.

Pedigree Cattle (Exhibitions)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture whether he has been approached by the British Friesian Cattle Society to take steps to secure for breeders of pedigree cattle special cheap railway facilities for sending their cattle to and from agricultural exhibitions; and whether there is any likelihood of the breeders' rate being revived?

I have been asked to reply to this question. A communication has been received from the British Friesian Cattle Society. I have already announced the restoration of the pre-war concessions in regard to the conveyance of livestock travelling to and from agricultural shows. I am not clear to what arrangement the hon. Member refers in the latter portion of his question, but if he will be good enough to send me particulars I will make inquiry.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell us when the children of the workers will have the same chance as livestock?

Crown Colonies (Land Ownership)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether steps can be taken forthwith to prevent Japanese subjects buying and owning land in Crown Colonies unless a similar concession is extended to British subjects in Japan?

I do not consider that there is sufficient reason for taking such action as is suggested by the Noble Lord. I would mention, however, that according to information which has reached us, the question of revision of the Land Laws in Japan appears to have been under consideration recently.

Admiralty Garage, Albany Street

asked the First Commissioner of Works the pre-War annual rental paid for the garage premises in Albany Street at present occupied by the Admiralty; the number of square feet area and the general accommodation; and what is the annual sum paid for rates and taxes?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The garage premises in Albany Street belong to the Crown. When the Admiralty entered into possession on 3rd October, 1917, the General Omnibus Company were in occupation on a 99 years' lease expiring on 10th October, 1917. The rent was a ground rent only, and amounted to £162 18s. per annum. The premises cover an area of about 25,960 square feet, with frontages to Cumberland Street and Redhill Street. They comprise a large one-storey garage, a smaller garage, offices, workshops, lifts, etc., and a paved yard. The contribution made by the Treasury in lieu of rates for the year ended 31st March, 1920, amounted to £301 17s. 6d.

All-Nigrt Sitting (Cost)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he can inform the House as to the approximate total cost entailed in the all-night sitting of Thursday-Friday last?

So far as my Department is concerned, the estimated cost ism approximately £20.

Roadsmen, Cdmberland (Wages)

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that. there is a possibility of a strike of the Cumberland county roadsmen, who are members of the National Union of General Workers, on account of the workmen in question asking for a flat rate of £3 per week; that the Council only granted the men £2 15s.; and that one of the councillors described the rates of wages paid as a scandal to Great Britain; and if he will put himself into communication with the secretary of the Cumberland. County Council with a view to preventing a strike?

I understand from inquiries made by our local officer that the Cumberland County Council have before them an application for a further increase of 5s. per week for their roads-men. I am in communication with the Clerk to the Council on the matter.

Electrical Power

asked the Minister of Transport when he hopes to have a definite economical price fixed and increased electrical power at the disposal of industrial undertakings, bearing in mind the fact that the first portion of the cycle of trade activity has now been entered upon; and can assurances be given that some definite portion of the scheme will be operative before this trade activity passes?

There will be no fixed economical price which will be of general application. The fixing of the price or prices will depend on the operations of the new authorities to be set up under- the Electricity (Supply) Act of last Session. The Electricity Commissioners, who have been recently appointed, are engaged on work preliminary to the determination of the new districts. One district has been provisionally determined and the necessary notices published, and similar action will be taken in the case of certain other districts in the course of the next few weeks. In accordance with the provisions of the Act, it will then be for existing electrical undertakers, local authorities and others in each district to formulate schemes for submission to the Commissioners, embodying improvements in the supply of electricity in such districts. The Commissioners are fully aware of the importance of expediting the work of reorganisation under the Act and have already made substantial progress.

In view of the present condition of the cotton industry in Lancashire, may I ask when these prices will be fixed for Lancashire?

Transport

Railway Companies (Government Guarantee)

asked the Minister of Transport whether he will prepare and circulate a statement showing what are the arrangements with the railway companies in this country under the Government guarantee?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the Appendix to the Statement as to Railways (Cmd. 654) recently presented to Parliament, and of which I am forwarding him a copy.

Munitions

Fuze Rodding (Manufacture)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether his Department purchased any hydraulic presses for producing extruded rod from America or elsewhere during the War; if any of such presses were passed on to private manufacturers to assist their manufacture off fuze rodding; were such presses sold outright to these firms; and were they merely loaned or were they purchased by these firms under special arrangement, either wholly or partly, out of excess profits?

I have been unable to obtain any information which would enable me to answer this question, but if my hon. Friend will advise me of any case that he may have in mind, I shall be glad to have further enquiries made.

S.S. "Jolly George."

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether the ammunition recently loaded on, and subsequently unloaded from, the "Jolly George" was sold by the Disposal Board to the Polish Government; and, if not, by whom was it sold?

The ammunition referred to was not sold by the Disposal Board, and I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the statement made yesterday by the Leader of the House.

If it was not sold by the Disposal Board, how did it come to be disposed of at all? Were we not given to understand that all transactions went through the Disposal Board?

The Disposal Board sells such goods as are handed to them for disposal, and no others.

I have no knowledge of the transaction at all, except that they were not sold by the Disposal Board.

Post Office

Ettrick and Yarrow, Selkirk

asked the Postmaster-General whether the question of the postal service in the valleys of Ettrick and Yarrow, in the county of Selkirk, has now been considered; whether it has been found possible to provide further facilities; and, if so, will he state what they are?

The arrangements described in my answer to the hon. and gallant Member's question on the 31st March are now in operation. I regret that it is not possible to provide any further facilities.

Are these facilities merely for the summer? Will the people of the district desire additional facilities for—

Messenger Boys

asked the Postmaster-General whether advertisements are posted in post offices in London offering applicants under the age of 14½years a commencing salary of 7s. a week as messenger boys, salary to rise by is. a year, with a 2s. advance in the fifth year up to a maximum of 12s. a week at the age of 19 years; whether these terms are being offered with his approval; and, if not, what are the terms offered for messenger boys?

The scale of pay mentioned is the authorised pre-War rate of remuneration for boy messengers in London. The amounts are now subject to a substantial addition in respect of War bonus, ranging from 11s. 6d. per week for boys under 16 years of age, to 20s. 6d. per week for boys at the maximum.

Registered Letter, Lost

asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Miss A. Gilbertson, who forwarded a registered letter to Rome containing £15 in notes; whether he is aware that this letter was sealed and was accepted for registration, and a receipt was given for same, but on reaching the addressee no trace of the notes could be found; whether he is aware that a claim for the lost amount was sent to the Department, and in their reply (66,403/20) state that compensation in respect of a registered letter from one country to another of the Postal Union is only paid in the event of the loss of the entire letter, and therefore no claim can be entertained; and if he will have further inquiries made into this case?

The inquiries in the matter to which my hon. Friend refers are still being pursued, in case it may be possible to throw some light on the loss of the notes. It is, however, the fact that the Postal Union Regulations under which letters addressed to a place abroad are accepted for registration do not provide for the payment of compensation, except in the case of the loss of the entire letter. Letters containing banknotes can be insured up to a maximum of £400; but this is a distinct service from registration.

In the sending of registered letters abroad, is that condition made known to those who are registering the letters, so that they may have the chance of insuring them?

Surely everyone does not read the "Post Office Guide" because he desires to register a letter?

The "Post Office Guide" consists of several hundred pages, and it is there for everybody to look at.

Bill Presented

Guardianship of Infants Bill,

"to amend the Law relating to the guardianship and custody of infants," presented by Colonel GREG; supported by Viscountess Astor, Sir James Agg-Gardiner, Mr. James Brown, Dr. Murray, Sir Martin Conway, Major Rills, and Captain Loseby; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 2nd June, and to be printed. [Bill 119.]

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee A

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Ten Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Representation of the People (No. 3) Bill): Dr. Addison, Mr. Frederick Hall, Mr. Hailwood, Lieut.-Colonel Hurst, Mr. Neil Maclean, Mr. Munro, Mr. Seddon, Captain Thorpe, Mr. Aneurin Williams, and Sir Kingsley Wood.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee A (in respect of the Harbours, Docks, and Piers (Temporary Increase of Charges) Bill): Sir Thomas Bramsdon, Lieut.-Commander Chilcott, Sir Howell Davies, Sir Eric Geddes, Mr. Inskip, Sir Evan Jones, Sir Clement Kinloch-Cooke, Captain Moreing, Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon, Mr. Neal, General Sir Ivor Philipps, Mr. Renwick, Mr. Sexton, Mr. Tillett, and Mr. Wignall.

Standing Committee B

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee B (in respect of the Blind Persons Bill): Dr. Addison, Mr. Clynes, Mr. Dawes, Colonel Greig, Lieut.-Colonel Sir John Hope, Mr. Moles, Major William Murray, Sir J. D. Rees, Mr. Frederick Roberts, Mr. Sugden, Mr. F. C. Thomson, Mr. George Thorne, Captain Tudor-Rees, Mr. Stephen Walsh, and Sir Kingsley Wood.

Standing Committee C

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had added the following Fifteen Members to Standing Committee C (in respect of the Importation of Plumage (Prohibition) Bill): Lieut.-Colonel Archer-Shee, Viscountess Astor, Captain Bowyer, Mr. Bridgeman, Mr. James Brown, Sir John Butcher, Commander Dawes, Mr. Bartley Denniss, Mr. Gilbert, Mr. Joseph Green, Mr. Hinds, Mr. Mills, Mr. Tootill, Mr. Aneurin Williams, and Colonel Yate.

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Members from Standing Committee C: Sir George Croydon Marks and Mr. Mosley; and had appointed in substitution: Major Oscar Guest and Lieut.-Commander Williams.

Reports to lie upon the Table.

Message from the Lords,

That they have agreed to,—

National Health Insurance Bill, Ejection (Suspensory Provisions) (Scotland) Bill,

House Letting and Rating (Scotland) Bill,

Llantrisant and Llantwit Fardre Rural District Council Bill,

Penllwyn Railway (Abandonment)Bill, without Amendment.

Tramways (Temporary Increase of Charges) Bill, with an Amendment.

Amendments to—

Tyne Improvement Bill [ Lords, ] without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make better provision in the national interests for the production and development of coal and certain other minerals; and for purposes connected therewith." [Coal Production Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make provision for the increase and alteration of the tolls, rates, and duties leviable in respect of Torpoint Ferry." [Torpoint Ferry Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board to construct further works; and for other purposes." [Mersey Docks and Harbour Board [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to amend The Weardale and Consett Water Act, 1915; and for other purposes." [Weardale and Consett Water Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Folkestone to provide concert halls and entertainments; to make further provision for the improvement and good government of the borough; to provide for the increase of the number of the council and of the wards of the borough, the consolidation of rates, and other matters." [Folkestone Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]

And also, a Bill, intituled "An Act to confer further powers upon the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the county borough of Croydon in regard to their water undertaking; and for other purposes." [Croydon Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]

Torpoint Ferry Bill [ Lords, ]

Mersey Docks and Harbour Board Bill [ Lords, ]

Weardale and Consett Water Bill [ Lords, ]

Folkestone Corporation Bill [ Lords, ]

Croydon Corporation Bill [ Lords, ]

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Coal Production Bill [ Lords, ]

Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday, 7th June, and to be printed. [Bill 120.]

Orders of the Day

Government of Ireland Bill

Considered in Committee [SECOND DAY].

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Establishment of Parliaments for Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland and a Council of Ireland

CLAUSE 1.—(Establishment of Parliaments of Southern and Northern Ireland.)

"(1) On and after the appointed day there shall be established for Southern Ireland a Parliament to be called the Parliament of Southern Ireland consisting of His Majesty and the House of Commons of Southern Ireland, and there shall be established for Northern Ireland a Parliament to be called the Parliament of Northern Ireland consisting of His Majesty and the House of Commons of Northern Ireland.

"(2) For the purposes of this Act Northern Ireland shall consist of the parliamentary counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry and Tyrone, and the parliamentary boroughs of Belfast and Londonderry, and Southern Ireland shall consist of so much of Ireland as is not comprised within the said parliamentary counties and boroughs."

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1) after the word "and" ["His Majesty and the House of Commons"], to insert the words "two Houses, namely, the Senate and".

The Committee will remember that ten days ago the Government and the majority of hon. Members rejected a proposal for a joint Senate for the whole of Ireland. My present Amendment proposes, not that a single Senate should be created for the whole of Ireland, but that one shall be set up for the Southern Parliament, and, if a consequential Amendment which I have down later is carried, then a Senate should also be created for the Northern Parliament. In other words, it proposes to set up in the Government of Ireland the bicameral system. After the speeches made by representatives of the Government last week, by the Leader of the House, the First Lord of the Admiralty and the President of the Board of Education, I think we may regard this question of two Senates for the two provincial Parliaments as an open question and one for the impartial consideration of the Committee. If my Amendment is carried and the consequential Amendment with reference to the Northern part of Ireland is also carried, two Second Chambers will be set up in Ireland. For the purposes of order it has been necessary for me to put down a number of other consequential Amendments setting forth what, in my opinion, should be the composition and the powers of these two Chambers. To-day I do not propose to do more than to allude to these matters in two or three sentences. My idea is that the two Senates should be, in the matter of numbers, considerably smaller than the Houses of Commons. I have suggested that the membership should be, roughly speaking, one-third of the membership of the House of Commons, and the Members should be appointed, half by nomination, and half by election, on a system of proportional representation in the case of the elected members and large constituencies. As to their powers, in the event of disagreement between the two Houses, I propose the arrangement that was adopted in the case of South Africa, namely, that the Second Chamber, in the matter of general legislation, should have the power of holding up proposals for two Sessions, and in the case of financial legislation, for one Session, and that after that period there should be joint sittings between the two Chambers, and that decisions should be come to by a majority vote. These, roughly speaking, are my general ideas.

By the Crown. But be that as it may, I will suggest to-day the Committee is engaged not so much upon deciding details regarding the Second Chambers as on the general principle whether or not a system of Second Chambers should exist in Ireland. I suppose there is no question upon which there would be greater difference of opinion than the composition and powers of Second Chambers. No two Members probably think alike on that subject, and I say quite frankly I do not much mind what is the constitution of the Second Chambers, or what are their powers, provided that they fulfil one condition, and one condition alone—that they afford an adequate and effective means for the representation of minorities. I suggest to-day, if the Committee will agree to the general principle of the bi-cameral system of government, the details can be worked out with the parties most directly concerned, namely, the representatives of Ireland and the minorities for whose safeguard we make these proposals.

4.0 P.M.

It seems to me that the first thing to be done is to show that the proposal is practicable. Ireland is a small country with a population of four and a quarter millions. Its constitution is already complicated in the provisions of this Bill. The question is, is it practicable in this small country to super-impose upon the two Houses of Commons two Second Chambers? The First Lord of the Admiralty, in the speech he made the other evening, seemed to imply that he saw practical difficulties in the way of this proposal, and he turned with some justice to the precedent of the Dominions of Canada, where, as he rightly pointed out, Second Chambers only exist in two of the Federal States. But if precedent is to be sought, I suggest that the great body of it in the Empire is on the side of Second Chambers. If in Canada they are the exception, in the Commonwealth of Australia they are the general rule. The population of Australia is about the same as the population of Ireland, yet in spite of that fact there are no fewer than six Second Chambers in the Commonwealth. If you turn to other parts of the Empire you will find, almost without exception, there are Second Chambers, and if you go further, if you look at the United States of America, you will find that in every one of the 48 States there is the bicameral system. I say that to show in a few sentences that the proposal, whatever may be its merits, is perfectly practicable. But I quite admit that it is not sufficient to show that it is practicable. It is much more 'important to show that in the present state of Ireland it is advisable to apply it to that country. I approach the subject from one point of view and one point of view only, the point of view of attempting to find some safeguard for the scattered minorities. It is a very difficult task, and whilst, obviously, many objections can be made against these small Second Chambers, it will not be denied that they do form some means for giving representation to minorities that will have no chance of finding a place in the House of Commons. I am quite aware that there are many people who say that paper safeguards are of no use at all, and that whatever may be the provisions that this House inserts in this Bill minorities in Ireland are bound to suffer. That is a very dangerous doctrine. If it be true, it does not matter what provisions we put in this Bill no effective result will ensue, and we might just as well stop this discussion altogether and adjourn the House for an indefinite time. Even if I am not correct in saying that, there is an overwhelming reason for adopting this proposal, for, though some people may think that paper safeguards are of no avail, the fact remains that there are many representative Unionists in the south and west of Ireland who do believe that these safeguards are better than nothing, and that a Second Chamber, if properly constituted, may be of real use to them. If the Second Chamber has some such powers of revision and delay as I have suggested, then we shall have a real safeguard in the matter of legislation, and that at any rate is something. But I admit and it has been admitted time after time in these Debates that the danger from which they have most to fear is not the danger of legislation but the danger of unjust administration.

I am bold enough to believe that even against the danger of unjust administration a Second Chamber upon which minorities are directly represented can be of very real use. Take the case of the House of Lords as an example. Obviously, the House of Lords has not the direct control over administration that is possessed by this Chamber. None the less, time after time, by means of its Debates, it has exercised, with all the weaknesses of its composition, a very real influence over the course of the administration of Government Departments. I need not elaborate instances. Hon. Members will remember that in questions of health and in questions of foreign administration the Second Chamber time after time has exercised a very real controlling influence. I believe that is equally possible in the case of a Second Chamber in Ireland. I admit that in Ireland there is a special difficulty from the fact that the minorities are scattered, at any rate in the south and the west, and that even with some such system as I propose it may be difficult to bring upon the Second Chambers any number of minority representatives in comparison with the serried ranks of the majority representatives in the Houses of Com- mons. The Senates will be smaller bodies than the Houses of Commons, and obviously the minority representatives, compared with the numbers in the Houses of Commons, will be very small. None the less, there also, I believe, even a small representation, whatever the number may be, will be able to exercise a very real control over the course of policy and administration. Let me take an example from this House. Take the case of the half-dozen Members who represent Irish Nationalist opinion in Ireland. Whether we agree with their views or whether we do not, those hon. Members exercise an influence altogether out of proportion to their numbers. That, I believe, will be the case with the minority representatives in the Second Chambers in Ireland. The real safeguard against persecution is public opinion. You cannot mobilise public opinion unless you have publicity, and you cannot have publicity unless you have a platform from which to speak. In proposing these Second Chambers, I wish to give a platform to minority representatives from which they can put their case and by means of which they can create public opinion on their side. I believe, whatever may be the number of these representatives, that the mere possession of that platform will be of very great advantage.

I have left to the end the most serious objection to my proposal, the objection urged the other evening by the President of the Board of Education. The President of the Board of Education suggested that to set up two more chambers in Ireland would be to put further impediment in the way of union. It would complicate the machinery, and, in his view, make it more difficult to pass the identical Acts without which union cannot be achieved. If I thought that my proposal would have that effect, I would not support it in this Committee for one moment. The only justification for this Bill is ultimate Irish union, and, if I felt that to set up Second Chambers would be to delay by one single hour this ultimate union, I would not make the proposal; but these Second Chambers need be no impediment at all in the way of union. First of all, if it should be necessary, it would be perfectly possible to restrict their powers and make it impossible for them to delay any proposals for union. That is merely a detail that can be inserted in their con- stitution when their constitution is drawn up. More important than that, I would ask the Committee to remember who it is that we wish to see upon these Senates. The men whom we wish to see upon these Senates are the representatives of the minorities, or, in other words, the very men who are most anxious to see union at the earliest possible moment, and who stand to gain most by the adoption of Irish opinion. That being the case, I suggest that these Senates, so far from being an impediment in the way of union, by the nature of the members who Pill be upon them will be a unifying force. I cannot, therefore, agree to the contention urged by the President of the Board of Education the other evening that to set them up will be to delay by one single moment the day of ultimate union.

These are the reasons that have led me to make these proposals, reasons which the Committee will see are practical and not theoretical reasons. I would ask hon. Members to approach the proposal not with any pre-conceived notions as to whether they think second chambers are a good thing or a bad thing, or with any pre-conceived notions as to how they think that they ought to be constituted or what should be their powers. I would ask them simply to put to themselves this simple question: Here are these second chambers which can be used as a safeguard for minorities in Ireland at the present moment. If we refuse this proposal, what other safeguard can we offer to these minorities? The safeguard of the Imperial Parliament, when once this Bill be passed, will be far less effective than it is to-day. The safeguard of a single Senate the Committee has already rejected. The Council, as at present constituted and with the very exiguous powers that it possesses under the Bill, can be no safeguard whatever for these minorities. Against fancy franchises there are obvious objections; indeed, upon the Irish Convention, the representatives of Irish labour and other representatives made strong objection against any kind of artificial representation in the Houses of Commons. That being the case, if these other safeguards are ruled out, the choice is practically limited to the institution of these Second Chambers. I would ask the Committee to accept to-day, at any rate in principle, this proposal, for what it is worth, as one of the very few practicable safe- guards that it is possible for us to propose. I would further ask the Government to remember the pledges that they have given time after time to the Southern Unionists. When many representatives of the Southern Unionists say that a Second Chamber can be a real safeguard to them, I would ask the Government to give them that safeguard.

I think it would probably be convenient and desirable if the views of the Government are stated at the outset of this Debate, and, although my hon. and gallant Friend who has just spoken has sat for a long time in this House, I hope he will permit me to give him my warmest congratulations upon the manner and form in which he has presented a by no means easy case to the Committee. He has divested it of any appearance of what is commonly called political feeling, and he has presented it reinforced by arguments of the clearest and, as I venture to say, of the most interesting character. I think he has rendered a service, not only to those on whose behalf he speaks—namely, the minorities in the North and South of Ireland—but also to the Committee, by moving his Amendment in the speech to which we have listened with so much pleasure. I am very glad, on behalf of the Government, to accept the suggestion which he made in the early part of his speech, namely, that the question under consideration—the establishment of a Second Chamber in the North and South of Ireland—should be discussed on his Amendment as a matter of principle, rather than that we should go into details as to the constitution, with regard to which I will say a word, but in reference to which he has, as I think very wisely, limited his remarks to the fewest possible number.

My hon. and gallant Friend referred to the speeches made by Members of the Government on the occasion of the last Amendment, and I think he described them with complete accuracy. I would like just to say that there was no intention on the part of the three Ministers—my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, the President of the Board of Education, and myself—who spoke on that Amendment, to deal with the general question of a Second Chamber. As to that, the views, I think, of all of us are in complete accord. Certainly, as a part of a Central Parliament, there can be no question whatever as to its necessity and its value. What we sought to do was to convey to the Committee very briefly the reasons which had led, in the first instance the Committee over which I had the honour to preside, and in the second instance the Government, in considering our recommendation, to decide in favour of a single Chamber. As I said then, they were partly reasons based upon precedent, and partly reasons based upon practical questions of how best to protect minorities. My hon. and gallant Friend, quite inadvertently, did not do me altogether justice when he referred to my speech. As I think he will remember, I mentioned not only the Dominion of Canada, but also the Federal States of Australia, and I pointed out that there is no exact precedent. The conditions are different in the three great Dominions where we have applied a federal or unified system; and in Australia, as he truly reminded us, you are dealing, of course, with States which are sovereign States to-day, although they have come into a Federation. Of course the same applies to the United States of America. Therefore, in each of these cases, the election of a Second Chamber was part of the old governmental system of those days, and it has remained ever since. In Canada, it has been deliberately given up, as my hon. and gallant Friend says, and as I ventured to remind the Committee the other day, as unnecessary in the subordinate parliaments of the federal system.

The Government have tried, since the introduction of this Bill, to make it clear that, in drawing up this scheme, they have been governed absolutely by a desire to make it ultimately part of a federal plan. My Noble Friend the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) asked me whether, by "federal plan," I meant a federal plan having a central Parliament in London, or in Ireland. Of course the Government, and I myself, meant a federal plan of which Great Britain and Ireland should be part, and a Central Parliament which would be here. The Committee and the Government believe—and my hon. Friend, although he has disposed of this argument in advance, will not, I am sure, complain of me for mentioning it—the Committee and the Government believe that in a federal system the best security for a minority is really to be found in the central Parliament. If you interpose a Second Chamber, you make it more difficult for the Central Parliament to interfere in the interests of the minority. There is, as my hon. and gallant Friend knows, a very considerable body of opinion holding that view. I pointed out, however, the other day, that, while we had, quite honestly, come to this conclusion—animated, I may say, as much as my hon. and gallant Friend is by a desire to do all that can properly be done for the minorities—we felt then, as we feel now, that those who have to live under these new constitutions are entitled to ask that their views shall be considered before ours. We are dealing with the matter from a theoretical point of view, whereas they are called upon to face it as a question of practical politics, involving, it may be for them, all that they care for most in the days to come, when these Parliaments operate in Ireland. So far as I know there has been no similar expression of opinion in regard to the north, but my hon. and gallant Friend said that if this Amendment were adopted he proposed, later on, to move that the same principle should be applied in the north. In the view of the Government, if you are to have a Second Chamber in the Southern Parliament, you must obviously have a Second Chamber equally in the Northern Parliament. If you are to accept the principle that there is to be protection for minorities by some provision in this Bill, and if that is to take the form of a Second Chamber, it must apply to the Bill as a whole, and not be limited only to one part of it.

What the Government propose to do now is definitely to accept the principle of the Second Chamber for the two Irish Parliaments, both in Southern and in Northern Ireland. My hon. and gallant Friend, in his remarkably able speech, made it perfectly clear that we have only approached the first stage of the solution of this difficult problem, because, if the Second Chamber is to be a real protection for the minority, it must be constituted in such a way as to secure this result, so far as it is possible for legislation to do so. We feel that this does involve, to be quite frank, a great change in the structure of the Bill; but it is a change which, as my hon. and gallant Friend has shown quite clearly, is absolutely consistent with the fundamental principle of the Bill, which is the establishment of a federal system. We realise that it is of the utmost importance that this Second Chamber should be so constituted as to do everything that we can humanly do to secure success. I will venture very briefly to point out some of the questions that we have to consider and to decide before we can adopt a precise form for the Second Chamber. They have every variety. In 1914 a very interesting White Paper was published as a Command Paper, giving the various forms of Second Chamber and their constitution. Some of the questions that we have to consider are whether it is to be an elected or a nominated Chamber—my hon. and gallant Friend's proposal is that it should be half and half, partly nominated and partly elected; what are to be the nature and size of the constituency, the length of term for which the senators are to serve, their qualification—whether age or property—and who are to nominate; whether it is to be the same in the North and South; if differences arise between the two Houses, how are they to be adjusted and what is to be the position of the Second Chamber in regard toe finance? These, as I am sure the Committee will agree, are all of them difficult, and, as I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend will agree, not only difficult, but questions of first-rate importance.

It is no good setting up Second Chambers for this purpose unless we are prepared to approach the consideration of their constitution fully alive to all the possible difficulties and prepared to do our utmost to overcome them. This means labour and time, and, I hope I may venture to say, some consultation between those who, outside the Government, are especially interested in this question. The proposal I venture to make to my hon. and gallant Friend, and those whom he represents, is that he should not press us to accept this Amendment, because it would be impossible in itself. The Government undertake, between now and Report, to place on the Paper a definite scheme for the constitution of the Second Chamber in both Southern and Northern Ireland. If that undertaking is sufficient for him and his friends, we will consider these questions, and, of course, the proposals that he and others have made which have appeared on the Paper, and, before we reach Report, we will have ready for consideration by this House what we believe will be a practicable scheme. That undertaking, on behalf of the Government, I am prepared to give, and I hope that that will satisfy my hon. and gallant Friend and those whom he represents. He may take it from me that the Government will avoid any hidden rocks or difficulties. It is our desire that nothing should be done hastily, that nothing should be done without the most mature examination and consideration. It will be our endeavour in giving this undertaking to find a scheme really practicable and effective, to secure the support of all those who in all quarters of this House and outside as well think that there should be every precaution taken to avoid that oppression of minorities which would mean that the result would be nothing but failure.

With practically all that the right hon. Gentleman has said I find myself in agreement, except on one point. I must say that I was a little alarmed—and I think all those who wished to see a Bill for the better government of Ireland must also be a little alarmed—by the proposal the Government are making. Does it mean that the Bill will be delayed?

Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman gives us an assurance that there shall be no delay, I am satisfied. I think it is vital that after thirty-four years of talking about Home Rule we should at last pass a Home Rule Bill. It is now thirty-four years since we first proposed to give Home Rule to Ireland.

I believe that if the right hon. Gentleman's advice is taken we shall lose both Ireland and the Empire too.

I would not stand here if I did not believe that any proposal now to delay, not only the passing of this Act, but the setting up of a Parliament, certainly in Ulster, and as soon as may be in Dublin, will be fatal not only to our relations with America but to our own Empire. At any rate, that is my opinion. With regard to the proposals the hon. and gallant Gentleman put forward, I ventured to ask him a question while he was speak' ing—a thing that is always very difficult, and I apologise for causing him any confusion—as to a proposal which is very vital to the consideration of the Amendment. I think the real question is, what sort of a Second Chamber are you going to set up? If the Members of the Committee will turn to page 471 of the Amendments they will see the kind of Second Chamber that the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Sir S. Hoare) proposes to set up. It is proposed that the Southern Senate shall consist of 40 Senators, of whom 20 shall be nominated by the Lord-Lieutenant, subject to any instructions given by His Majesty in respect of the nomination, and that 20 shall be elected by proportional representation. That is to say, that half of them shall be nominated by the Crown. If we are going to pass this Bill at once, that means that half of the Senators will be nominated on the advice of the Government. I think there could be nothing more calculated to exasperate opinion in Ireland. I know that that is not the intention of the Government. I know perfectly well that my right hon. Friend means to set up a Second Chamber which will assure that all grievances will be properly ventilated, and that it shall not be regarded as a reactionary body. But if he proposes it in that form it will be so regarded. The right hon. Gentleman's words seem to be fraught with danger. If you are going to set up a Second Chamber it should be in its essence as democratic in character as our own House. It should also be smaller. If this were carried out, my objection would fall to the ground, but if, in the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, you attempt to nominate here half of the Members of the Senate, I am sure that everyone in Southern Ireland, and possibly Northern Ireland as well, will at once say that they do not propose to have such a legislature.

May I interrupt the right hon. Gentleman for one moment? As he challenges me, may I tell him that, as a matter of fact, we are taking this precedent from the precedent of his own Government in the 1914 Act.

I think my hon. and gallant Friend has quite forgotten that we did not propose in 1914 that Ireland should nominate a proportion of the Parliament at the other end, but here he proposes that England should nominate half the Senate and that the other half—

The right hon. Gentleman in 1914 used exactly the same words in his Bill. The only difference between him and myself is that in 1914 he wanted the whole of the Senate nominated in that way and I only want half of it.

I am afraid I must be very dull in my explanation. My objection is not to nomination itself, but it is to nomination by whom? Under my hon. and gallant Friend's proposals the British Government here is going to nominate half the Senate for Ireland. The real danger under this Bill is that the Crown here should nominate half those members. If any such proposal should be persisted in, personally I shall be bound to oppose it, because nothing could be put in the Bill which would be more unfavourable to getting it accepted in Ireland.

When those proposals were put forward I was not a Member of the Government.

Well, all I can say is that we have had many years to reflect since then. We have had many years of war, and I think it would be most unwise for us to-day to attempt to nominate a Senate for either the northern or the southern Parliament. I do not myself see any objection to the bi-cameral system for both the north and the south. I believe the only way to secure the union of Ireland is to set up, as this Bill proposes, two Parliaments. I do not see any other solution. The precedent of Canada may well be quoted. We attempted to set up one Parliament there, and it was a failure. Canada then set up two, and through these two there ultimately accrued Federal union. If the objection be raised to this proposal that it makes for the permanent division of Ireland, I do not agree. I believe that the main proposal of this Bill is a sound one, and I believe that the best plan is to set up our two Parliaments and two Chambers, and to give them power to come together.

I am very glad that the Government have adopted the course they have taken in accepting this Amendment. Even if I did not think the Amendment was a necessary one in the North of Ireland I am certainly in entire sympathy with the Government in making every possible concession that can be made to safeguard the right of minorities in the South. The proposal is one which, with all deference to my right hon. Friend (Major-General Seely), I think we can discuss without dragging in, as we frequently do during these Debates, the influence of America upon our politics. I think it is high time that America—or those who pretend to speak for America, but are not real Americans—should learn to understand that we are still a great Power, and that we are not subordinate either to America or to any other Power. America has many questions of her own, and they are difficult enough. I think nobody in this House will say that we should be justified in the slightest degree, ever for electioneering purposes, for capturing the Irish or American vote in this country, in attempting to deal with what is exclusively a question for that great Republic. I hope America will drop out of this discussion.

As regards the question of a Second Chamber there are several matters that arise. Of course, the first and most difficult one is the constitution of the Second Chamber, and I think the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill said that it would not necessarily follow that you would have the same Second Chamber in the north and in the south of Ireland, and with that I entirely agree. I myself, so far as the north of Ireland is concerned —and I speak as a north of Ireland Member, though a south of Ireland man—believe that there will be on all sides a great deal of resentment to certainly so large a proportion as half of the Senate being nominated. If half of the men were to be nominated and half of them were to be elected, it would mean that very probably a Bill coming up from the Lower House might be defeated almost entirely by the nominated members. I do not think that is possible in a democracy such as the north of Ireland. I do not think it is either a possible or a feasible method. I am perfectly certain of one thing, that the moment you begin to exercise power of that kind in that kind of way—and unless it be exercised it would be of little use—you would have the country torn from top to bottom in trying to get rid of a Second Chamber nominated in that particular kind of way. As to who is to nominate, I should have thought the King, on the advice of his Ministers, was the proper person, if you have nominations at all. Ireland is not going to drop out of this Parliament altogether. Ireland is to be represented here. I hope Ireland will be fully represented, because she is going to be taxed from here, and she has a right to the same numbers in proportion to her population as England, Scotland, and Wales will have. Therefore Ireland will be a part of this Parliament; and I see nothing inconsistent with nomination being left to the Crown, on the advice of Ministers. I further say this, which is a vital consideration, as showing how carefully you ought to approach the question of nomination at all. Will you have any guarantee that the men nominated will really represent the minority or will be a safeguard to the minority? I would not trust a Government over here who were dependent on forty or sixty Irish votes. I do not know that it would be any safeguard at all under certain conditions. For the last thirty years this House has seethed with corruption in making bargains with the Irish voters, and it has unfortunately led to the most disastrous consequences as far as Ireland herself is concerned. I hope my right hon. Friend in considering the question of nomination will also consider that question. Another thing arises on the Amendments in the Schedule as to the suggested nominated Chamber. I beseech of my right hon. Friend to leave the clergy out. I see Bishops, Archbishops, Moderators, and all the rest of it included in this. Can anything be worse than introducing the various Churches into the arena of politics, especially in Ireland? It is bad for the Houses of Parliament themselves, and for the Senate, and it is bad for religion above all things that these men should be brought in there as politicians.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Schedule to which he refers is not the Schedule of my right hon. Friend behind me, but another Schedule?

It is in many names. We are not dealing with these suggestions on the Paper now. I am only suggesting these matters for the consideration of my right hon. Friend when he comes to the forming of the Senates. The next thing my right hon. Friend will have to consider is what are to be the powers of these Chambers? There again it is not very easy to define them or limit them. One thing I should like to have considered is this. Will the Second Chamber have representation upon the Council which is being set up under the Bill? The House of Parliament which is set up elects a certain number of its own men to the Council. Will the Second Chamber also elect some of their men to the Council? I should have thought that would necessarily follow from the fact of having the two Parliaments, though I only throw it out in order that it may be considered. It ism said the Second Chamber will be no protection in administration, and, as a rule, I believe that to be perfectly true, but I suggest that if the Members of the Second Chamber are eligible as Ministers off Departments you would have some safeguard as regards administration, and I would ask that that also should be considered. It is quite evident that we cannot, on this pronouncement of Government policy, expect to have all these matters set out immediately in black and white, and I think what my right hon.. Friend said is very encouraging, that he will not hesitate to meet and discuss these matters with any parties who are interested. That is a very wise course if the Bill is to become law, that we should have as much of that as possible, if they would only come and help. I should also be very glad that Nationalist or Sinn Fein, or any other Members, should come and meet the right hon. Gentleman. I hope there will be no delay, and that we may have these matters gone into with those who are chiefly concerned with the matter as soon as possible. The Report stage will be probably a very short time off, and I do not think there is any time to be lost in this, which may prove to be one of the most critical and important provisions for the protection of minorities in this Bill.

Everyone who believes in Second Chambers will, of course, be glad the Government are prepared to make this concession, but it is impossible not to feel that they have approached the question of Irish Government with a degree of detachment of mind which is almost without parallel. You would have thought they had never heard of the problem of protection of minorities in Ireland. You would certainly have thought they had never heard of the idea of a Second Chamber as a means of protecting a minority. But, it having been suggested, they are approaching it with a fresh mind, and though they perhaps see a good many difficulties in the construction and powers of a Second Chamber, they think they might perhaps adopt the suggestion, and they propose to do it on the Report stage. The Report stage, of course, in normal parliamentary procedure, is not intended for introducing fundamental changes into a Bill, but rather for correcting details which have been up to that point overlooked, and I hope the Government will re-commit the Bill in respect of these Clauses, as otherwise they will find themselves in a very difficult position, having only one stage in which to go through the very elaborate detail of the powers and construction of the Second Chamber. There is no doubt that a Second Chamber is in many circumstances, in tranquil and law-abiding countries, a very valuable check on hasty and ill-considered legislation. But I am not quite sure that it is of very much use against the kind of danger which the minority apprehends in Ireland. A Second Chamber is like an umbrella; it is a capital thing for a rain shower, but if you are unfortunate enough to live in a country where there is a volcano raining down red-hot stones it is comparatively useless, and I am inclined to fear that the people who live in Southern and Western Ireland, with a completely Sinn Fein Southern Parliament, as I suppose it will be, will find the Second Chamber of very little value to protect them against oppression.

I do not know whether the Government have considered at all how they are going to adjust the powers of a Second Chamber in such a way as really to make it an effective protection to the minority. Are they going to give it power over taxation? If they do not, they certainly will not give effective protection to the minority. There is no form of oppression easier to a legislative body than that of taxing by unfair discrimination. If they do not propose to give protection, excessive taxation may be very oppressive. Again, are they going to give the power of appropriation of supply? All these powers will have to be considered. If you give them financial power, I do not think you can have a nominated element. It has generally been held that if you give large financial powers to a Second Chamber it must draw its authority ultimately from the same source as that which gives authority to the First Chamber. Then how are you going to make it a safeguard? If it is to be a safeguard for the minority it must not be swept away by movements of opinion, such as the present movement of opinion in favour of Sinn Fein. It must be independent of public opinion to that extent. It must represent some different body of opinion, more considerate of the rights of minorities. I do not see how a Second Chamber is really going to help you out of the dangers which a Southern Parliament threatens the minority. It will not be able to restrain at all a unanimous Parliament. My right hon. Friend makes provision for joint sittings of the two Chambers in case of difference of opinion. In that case, of course, a Parliament elected by anything like the body of opinion that is now behind Sinn Fein will have far too large a majority to make the interference of the Second Chamber anything but negligible. It will always be over-ruled.

The right hon. Gentleman (Major-General Seely) doubted whether they would accept the principle of nomination if nomination rested on authority here, and, of course, if this Bill is really intended to give in some form or another—I have never understood whether it is or is not—a recognition to Irish nationality, it is quite true that it will be entirely inconsistent with any sort of recognition of nationality, though, of course, he was justified in saying it is consistent with the federal idea. But there is this difference between the proposal of 1914 and the proposal now before us, that nomination in 1914 was only to be for the first appointments. The first appointments to the Senate were to be nominated. After that it was to be elected by proportional representation. I never thought it a very good plan, because the Senate after the first nomination was to be actually a more representative body than the First Chamber which it was to revise. The First Chamber was not to be elected by proportional representation, and accordingly would not be so complete a representative instrument. Ultimately the Senate was to be an elected body. Under my hon. Friend's plan the Senate is not to be an elected body, even ultimately. You cannot make it a real safeguard for the minority, even to the limited extent of its powers, unless it is a non-representative body, and that is really the difficulty you always come to in dealing with a Second Chamber in these Bills. You want to do a thing inconsistent with your main scheme. You propose to trust the Irish people to govern themselves, but the moment you look at it in detail they are so little trustworthy that they will ill-treat the minority, and accordingly you have to put in safeguards, not to give them time to think it over but to stand up against Irish opinion in the name of British opinion, to stand between them and the minority they are going to oppress. I have every sympathy with the object, but it is an object inconsistent fundamentally with the purpose of the Bill. The truth is that my hon. Friends, no more than I, have any trust whatever in the representative capacity of the Irish people for autonomous representative government. This is an attempt to put in some safeguard, but there is only one safeguard to protect the minority, and that is to reject this Bill.

5.0 P.M.

Before my hon. and gallant Friend withdraws his Amendment, as I understand he intends to do, I should like to say a word or two about certain aspects of the proposal as it affects southern minorities. I welcome the speech of the First Lord of the Admiralty, because of the sympathy he expressed for their very difficult position. I agree especially with the statement made on behalf of the Government that it is useless for us to go into any detail on this matter of a Second Chamber. At the same time it must be said of those who live in the South under the danger and terrorism of political persecution, that the whole value of this Senate must depend upon its composition. The right hon. Gentleman undertakes to bring forward on Report another proposal, and that will mean that this House will have no further opportunity in Committee of discussing the details as to the powers of the Senate or how it is to be made up, and on the Report stage we shall have a Government scheme cut and dried in the form of an Amendment which it will be very difficult for us to get altered. Therefore, I think it is necessary, in welcoming the Government's readiness to meet us, just to mention some of the difficulties affecting the people in the South.

The last Debate we had a week ago we put forward proposals for a Senate which were largely prompted by our hope that it would be a unifying body, but the proposals for a Senate with that object were obviously unsuitable once you cease to have any unified power for the Senate, and when it becomes frankly and only a safeguard. The difficulties which you have in Ireland in setting up your Second Chamber is that although your minority is about one-tenth of the population it is so scattered that under the proposal for election brought forward by my hon. Friend you practically get no representation whatever. Unfortunately, in Ireland we can only take the religious census as a certain indication of political opinion. That is a very undesirable state of affairs, but unfortunately it exists. Although the Protestants represent about one-tenth of the Lower House, they will only get one-twenty-fifth of the representation on the most optimistic estimate. Therefore, their only chance of having their case brought forward at all will be for them to have strong representation in the Second Chamber. My hon. Friend has not only enabled them by his proposal to get their case brought forward, but he has provided for control, not only over general legislation, but over finance, and if this proposal is to be of any use in Ireland, this is a most important safeguard, and one which, however unusual, was admitted by the Irish Convention. The majority Nationalists and the minority Nationalists each put in a Report to the Convention, agreeing to give the Senate. these powers over finance, and I beg of the Government, when they work out their proposals, to see that the Senate is allowed this very important power.

In Ireland, those who will probably be elected to the Lower Chamber will have had very little business or governmental experience, and the only chance of getting men with financial experience to take a hand in public affairs will be for them to find their way on to the Senate. What we have to avoid in the Senate is machine-made politics. If you are going to rely on popular election, you will only increase the majority against the Unionists in the South and West. My hon. Friend has put down a certain representation for the various provinces, and he suggests that Leinster should have eight Senators. In that county there are 152,000 Protestants, out of a total of 1,140,000 belonging to all religious denominations. Therefore, the Protestants represent about two-fifteenths of the total, and that is the only place where they have the slightest chance of getting a Member on this Senate. In Munster and Connaught, and in two counties of Ulster they would not have any chance at all, and this proposal would only make the position of minorities absolutely worse. I admit that Ulster is different, and I welcome the recognition by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) that the Ulster Senate may quite well be constituted on different lines to that in the South. I beg the Government to bear in mind the decisions of the Irish Convention. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn deprecated the idea of having Archbishops and Bishops in the Senate. From the Northern point of view that is no doubt a very right criticism, but in view of the fact that in the South of Ireland all parties on the Convention agreed that the Archbishops and Bishops should be asked to take part in the deliberations of the Senate, I think it would be a very great pity if the Government leave them out.

Then the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ilkeston (Major-General Seely) objected to the proposed nomination by the British instead of the Irish Government. There is, however, the pro- vision which carries out the proposal of the Irish Convention that the Senate should be partly nominated by the Lord Lieutenant on behalf of the Irish Government, and should partly be elected by the Irish Peers and other bodies. The South of Ireland is by no means one to which strict theories of democracy as applied to this country will apply, and the argument of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ilkeston seems to be directed rather to the constitution of Senates in general than to the particular conditions with which we have to deal in Ireland.

The right hon. Gentleman became rather confused as to the dates of his somewhat eventful career. May I remind him that he was a Member of the Government which brought forward the proposal embodied in the Home Rule Bill that the whole of the Senate should at first be nominated? I deplore the idea of looking at this Senate from a narrow constitutional view. If we are to have it at all, let us have it quite frankly as a safeguard, as a temporary safeguard, we hope, but at any rate as a safeguard for unpopular minorities who will be living under persecution and terrorism in the early days of the experiment in self-government in Ireland. I hope that the Government will give us this safeguard, and that they will not allow themselves to be drawn away from giving their attention to that particular aspect of the problem by the quite different situation which exists in the North of Ireland.

I know it is not a very nice thing to look a gift horse in the mouth, and I rather apologise for what I am going to say to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill. My name is down supporting the Amendment, and I deeply regret the reception which he has given to the principle. I do not like the procedure which he has outlined, which is that the Government should have a series of conferences representing different interests in Ireland, and then bring up this question on Report. That is not satisfactory from the point of view of this House. On the Report stage you cannot move manuscript Amendments, and there is not the same freedom of debate. On the Report stage it is extremely difficult to take really fundamental Amendments to Clause 1 of the Bill, which is bound to entail consequential Amendments throughout the whole structure of the Bill. I press the Government to say now that when their proposal is tabled that we shall have a Committee stage. I ask them to say that when they put down for the Report stage their proposal in respect of the Second Chamber, they will agree to recommit the Bill, because one only needs to carry one's mind forward to the sort of discussion that is likely to arise on the composition and powers of the Council of Ireland to see that the constitution and powers of the Council will be vitally affected by the proposal for two Chambers, one in the North and the other in the South of Ireland. The position of the judicature is affected directly you introduce the Second Chamber system.

I think I have made my point clear. I know my hon. and gallant Friend wishes to withdraw his Amendment. I do not agree with what my hon. and gallant Friend who has just sat down said on the question of the archbishops and bishops. I am inclined to agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) that, looking to the future of Ireland, it would be a good thing if, as far as possible, the clerical element of both kinds was kept out of politics, whether it is the Protestant clericals of Belfast or the Catholic bishops in the South. It would be a good thing if the Irish Senate was a purely secular body, because the one danger in Ireland is that the old hard and fast division between Catholics and Protestants should become stereotyped. That is the one division we shall have to get rid of if ever we are to get unity, and the mere presence of clericals in the Senate might have a baneful effect on the healing of religious differences which now exist in Ireland. I do not say a word against the Catholic hierarchy, the Moderator of the Presbyterians or the other Protestant bodies in the North of Ireland, but I think that when we consider this Bill as a possible means of healing the root division of Ireland, the problem of Ireland is that when we are trying to heal that one difference, we should do everything we can to avoid maintaining the differences and bitter-nesses which have hitherto been the root cause of all the troubles in Ireland. Therefore I differ from my hon. and gallant Friend on the point he made with regard to the archbishops and bishops.

Can the Government saw now whether they are willing to recommit the Bill on this matter?

I have risen for the purpose of making that request, but before doing so I thank the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Long) most sincerely for the way in which he has met this Amendment. The suggestion which he has made of a conference between the parties directly concerned should be extremely valuable on this condition, that the conference should, if possible, prepare the proposals, but that the consideration of them should be retained in this House. On that account I venture to emphasise what has been said as to the desirability of recommitting the Bill at the proper time in reference to the matter of Second Chambers. If that were done we should then have a full opportunity of going into all these very important details. In the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will give that undertaking I shall be ready to withdraw this Amendment.

So far as conferences or consultations are concerned it will be the desire of the Government, not only on this question, but on every question vitally affecting those who have to live under this Government to take any opportunity that presents itself of obtaining the views of those Members of this House who take an active interest in this Bill, and to receive the benefit of their advice, especially in regard to this particular question of a Second Chamber. I think my hon. and gallant Friend is justified in pressing the suggestion that the Government should undertake to recommit the Bill in respect of the Clause setting up a Second Chamber. Otherwise there would be practical difficulty in dealing with it. The Report stage is much more limited in the opportunities which it offers, and the Government do not disguise from themselves that the question is one of profound difficulty. We may do far more harm than good if we set up a Second Chamber which either in constitution or in powers becomes a hindrance and an additional danger rather than a safeguard. Therefore we shall want all the help we can get both in devising a wise constitution and in keeping the Second Chamber right in the matter of powers. Having said that I may add that we have no hesitation whatever in acceding to the request that the Government should at the proper time be willing to recommit the Bill in respect of the Clause on the Paper.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

The Amendment standing in the name of the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) is almost identical in its proposal with that which was brought forward at the last sitting of the Committee by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith). It is not quite the same, but the difference is very small, and I could not allow any long debate on it; but if the Noble Lord desires to move it in order to get the sense of the Committee I have no objection.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "there shall be established for Northern Ireland a Parliament, to be called the Parliament of Northern Ireland, consisting of His Majesty and the House of Commons of Northern Ireland" and to insert instead thereof the words "Northern Ireland shall remain in all respects a part of the United Kingdom."

I will be exceedingly brief, as in form I admit that there is a great deal in this Amendment which is like the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Paisley, although the proposal is entirely different from that which he put forward. There is another reason why I will be exceedingly brief. That is the general atmosphere and aspect of this Committee. It is a record in the discussion of Bills of this character that it should take place in this atmosphere. I imagine that the dominant feeling of the very few Members who are present is that it does not matter two straws what is done with this Bill, as it will never come into operation. As I understand the position there is no prospect that this Bill will be worked in the South and West. Therefore we shall have this astounding position, that the only form of Home Rule which will exist in Ireland will be that which exists in Ulster. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) said the other day when speaking for Ulster, "Leave us alone!" and he spoke, I have no doubt, for the vast majority of those whom he represents in this House. Therefore you have this astounding result. Home Rule is to be established effectively only in that part of Ireland which hates and loathes the whole idea of Home Rule and where they are only accepting this, as I understand, through fear of having something worse. I do not think that 20 years ago anyone, however his imagination might have been exercised, could possibly have foreseen that Home Rule ultimately would be established in Ulster alone, that that would be the full result of all our dealings with Ireland.

The proposal which I make is that Ulster—and by Ulster I mean whatever is decided to be the North of Ireland—shall be left as it is at this moment. No one wants Home Rule there, and there is no reason for it. There is no question of conciliating opinion in this country. No one would be so mad as to imagine that by the grant of Home Rule to Ulster you would conciliate opinion in this country, and it is quite obvious that you would by this proposal get rid of the extraordinarily cumbrous constitution which you are going to set up in Ireland. You would only have one Parliament, that in Southern Ireland. People in the south do want some form of autonomy, but you would not have a second useless Parliament existing in the north with all the expense which it would entail But that is not the only reason. My hon. Friends who sit below the gangway, not the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dun-cairn, but some of his colleagues, have explained that they welcome the existence of Northern Ireland, because it will erect a barrier against the unity of Ireland in the future. I am the last person to wish for a compulsory unity of Ireland. I do not believe in compelling to work together people who do not wish to work together. It only ends in more lasting estrangement. But at the same time, I do think it is a reckless thing to do to erect barriers against unity in any measure of Home Rule for Ireland.

No one can really think that a measure of autonomy for Ireland would work smoothly or well if the country is divided into two parts. You may be against Home Rule altogether, but if you believe in it at all, and there is to be autonomy, it is evident that the practical difficulties of working a scheme will he increased immensely if Ireland is divided. You have only got to consider the possible question of the grant of Customs to the two Parliaments which is contemplated in this Bill to see the enormous difficulties which would arise. Therefore, the Government would be unwise, assuming for the purpose of this discussion, as I am bound to assume, that the Bill is meant to be a reality, to erect barriers between the two parts of Ireland. It would make it more difficult to have unity in the future. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House (Mr. Bonar Law) takes the contrary view, and thinks that the existence of the Northern Parliament would facilitate unity in the future. I know my right hon. Friend so well that it would sound impertinent even to suggest that that statement did not express his full thought. I am sure that he did express his full thought, but I find it extraordinarily difficult to understand how my right hon. Friend reached such a conclusion as that. Is it not perfectly plain, now that you are going to have a Second Chamber, are going to erect an elaborate system of Government in the North, are going to establish a group of vested interests, and are going to create a Civil Service and a judiciary, a Parliament, with all its traditions, that there will be an enormous number of people whose whole idea will be dominated by the desire to preserve the division between the two parts of the country?

I have the greatest respect for what is called the bureaucracy of this country. I admire very much their ability, their devotion, their patriotism. The Civil Service is one of the finest institutions in the country, but I recognise that it has immense power, and that it has immense power for obstruction. I believe that it is exceedingly difficult to carry through any great change if the thing really offends the conscience and conviction of the Civil Service of this country. Their conscience and conviction in my experience are always dictated by a genuine and well-informed love of the country. Still it is the fact that the power of obstruction of the bureaucracy is enormous. You are going to erect that power of obstruction in the North, and create an artificial barrier against unity. I cannot see how that can be seriously defended. It does seem to me to be a great blot on the proposal if they were otherwise to have any chance of success. Unlike the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), who, with the whole of his party, I observe is absent, I do believe in self-determination —that is, in a reasonable way. I do not mean to say that you are always to be governed by what a particular group of people wish to be their future Government, but I do believe in it in the sense in which we have always believed in it in this country, namely, that government should be by the consent of the governed. I believe in that profoundly as a general principle. Therefore there is no question of compelling Ulster to come into this arrangement, or, as far as I am concerned, in insisting on passing a Measure of Home Rule which is against all Irish opinion.

Apart from that, I have not the slightest wish to compel or induce Ulster to come into the Union with the rest of Ireland. I can quite understand Ulster's view that it must be repulsive, and as long as that is their view they ought to be left absolutely free not only from coercion but from any legislative persuasion. I think also that the principle of self-determination, or rather the failure to apply the principle of self-determination in Ireland, is really responsible for the great difficulties we are in now. It is not that I think that everything they desire should necessarily be granted by this country. There are many cases in which we could not grant what they ask. The attitude that has been so fatal has been that we know best what they wanted, that they were to shut their eyes and open their mouths and we would give them something very good. That is absolutely fatal. It is destroying their sense of responsibility for their own well-being. It sounds absurd to say so, but they look far too much to the action and the treatment which this country affords to them and look far too little to working out their own salvation in their own way, and making the Government, whatever it is, a success because they are personally responsible for it. Assuming that the South and West of Ireland do really desire a system of home rule such as this Bill gives—I know the assumption is not true, but you have to make that assumption in order to make the Bill sense at all—it seems to me that the right course for us is to let them have it, but to leave Ulster exactly as she is, which is, as I understand it, what she herself prefers, for she has always said "Leave us alone." That is the reasonable course to take. For those reasons I hope the Government may see their way to accept this Amendment.

I confess that I should find it more difficult to preserve any degree of self-confidence and mental com- fort after the speech of the Noble Lord, if it were not for the fact that I know this is not the first time he has indulged in very gloomy prophecies about what is to happen. I do not think he will find fault with me or will think I am unfair if I say that he has not always turned out a true prophet. I hope he will not be a true prophet with regard to the future of this Bill. I was surprised at one explanation of his as to this House. I have been through more Home Rule controversies in this House than my Noble Friend; I have been in the controversy ever since it started in 1886, though not precisely in the role which I am called upon to take up now. I find in the change to which my Noble Friend has referred a subject of most profound congratulation and gratification; but not for my Noble Friend's reason. My Noble Friend congratulates us on the change of atmosphere—the quiet, the claim, the more than quiet and calm, the spirit in which Amendments have been moved by those who are most profoundly concerned about the suggestions proposed. The reason he gives for it is that everyone in the House believes that the Bill is not going to pass or to function, and that therefore it does not matter. That is an astounding reason to give for Members being present. It would be a very good reason for staying away. There are quite as many Members in our Divisions as in the average Division on Committee Amendments, and that my Noble Friend knows. I know what the numbers are on the average, however important a Bill is when dealt with in Committee. My Noble Friend says, perfectly truly, that this Bill has received no support in Ireland. He has shared with me the profoundly difficult task of trying to find a solution of Irish difficulties. We have sat in conference together for days and days, and weeks and weeks.

I never had any conference with my right hon. Friend except to resist the proposals of the Government.

There is no proposal about a conference in this Amendment. Let us confine ourselves as far as possible to the Amendment. We do not want to return to Second Reading Debate.

I apologise. I did not intend to make any improper suggestion in regard to my Noble Friend, and I withdraw what I said. Let us come to the Amendment. The Amendment is that we should exclude Ulster, that is to say, that the province of Ulster, the nine counties, I presume, are to be excluded from this Bill. As will be seen from the speech of the Prime Minister on the Second Reading, that destroys the foundation of the Government proposal. We are quite alive to the fact that we are faced with profound difficulties in Ireland. My Noble Friend tells us we ought to consult Ireland. We did so. We had the Irish Convention. That Convention did not come to an agreement which would settle the difficulty. We are now faced with the Act of 1914. We have to amend that Act and this is our form of amendment. What will be the future of the South of Ireland I am not going to say. I believe the Government are right in proposing a scheme which is truly federal in its character, and I believe that not only will the Ulster Government of the future actually function, but that when they come to put their powers into operation they will find that they will get benefits given them of which they are now deprived. I say that because I believe that the only solution of the difficulties in connection with domestic legislation is to be found in a federal system. You have had in Ulster a great demand for reform in education ever since I have known Ireland. They have been unable to get the legislation they desired. They will have their opportunity under this Bill.

It is extraordinary that the outcome of all our Home Rule battles and controversies is to be that self-government is to be established in Ulster, which desires more than anything else to remain an undivided part of the United Kingdom. That is the result of her intense loyalty and devotion to the United Kingdom, and her well-founded belief that under the Act of Union she has obtained great benefits and has prospered. I know very well that the Bill is open to abundant criticism. It is very easy to criticise and to attack, but none the less I believe that we are right in making an effort to settle this question on federal lines, and although I admit that the prospect is gloomy and that all prophecies are, like those of my Noble Friend, in the direction of failure, yet I hold that the Government are justified in making what is an honest and carefully thought out federal proposal. I have great hope that when it has become law the people of Ireland will find in it an opportunity for releasing themselves from those troubles which have far too long oppressed them. The Government must adhere to the form of the Bill and resist the Amendment.

I would certainly be very hypocritical if, notwithstanding the speech of my right hon. Friend, I did not say that I was absolutely in favour of the Amendment. It has always been the ease of Ulster that her demand was simply to be left alone. Ulster is a product of the Union. Belfast was a village or small town of 20,000 inhabitants, absolutely without industries, when the Act of Union was passed between Great Britain and Ireland. Belfast has now a population of something like 450,000, with some of the largest and most profitable industries, not merely for Ireland, but for the United Kingdom as a whole. Ireland has flourished under the Union, and when anybody has said that the Union was a failure I have pointed to Ulster, and I have said that it was not the Union that was a failure, but that it was the way in which this Parliament in its administration worked many matters in connection with the Union. The great strength of Ulster's cause has been this: It has been said over and over again, "You want to oppress the Catholic minority; you want to get a Protestant ascendancy there." We have never asked to govern any Catholic. We are perfectly satisfied that all of them, Protestant and Catholic, should be governed from this Parliament, and we have always said that it was the fact that this Parliament was aloof entirely from these racial distinctions and religious distinctions, which was the strongest foundation for the government of Ulster. Therefore, not only have we never asked to get an opportunity of dealing in a hostile way with the minority, but we have sought from beginning to end of this controversy to be left alone, and to go on hand in hand with Great Britain as one nation with Great Britain. It was only in the last resort that we were compelled to put forward proposals for the separate treat ment of Ulster, for we believed that if this Parliament had given a fair and proper chance to the Union, it would eventually be found, and I believe it will be found still, to be the only way in which you can govern and protect the interests of Ireland.

Why has Ulster grown strong in industry and prosperity? Because she has every day grown closer and closer in all her business and industrial relations with England and Scotland. Take her great shipbuilding yards which were a great asset to you and to us during the late War. The shipbuilding in Belfast and on the Clyde and on the Mersey is really one great undivided organisation. Take the linen industry, the next great industry: part of the processes is done in Ireland and part in Scotland. There is a great interweaving of interests all round which I believe you will find it impossible to divide. Therefore I say the whole of the interests of Ulster, aye, and your interests too, would be in maintaining Ulster as part of the United Kingdom. She has never in the slightest degree refused in any of your difficulties to take her share. She has never in any wise tried to repel whatever taxes you thought were necessary. She has always made the one simple appeal to you to leave her alone and to treat her as you treat your own people and she would be perfectly satisfied. And I am bound to say that this breaking up and the giving to Ulster a Parliament may lead to many unforeseen consequences. I am greatly perplexed at the present moment over this question, which I think you will see at once, is a very difficult one. Ought there to be different labour laws and different labour administration for industrial Ulster from what there are in England and in Scotland? I believe that will raise vast difficulties. I do not know which is best for the men themselves. I shall consult them on the subject and then put forward whatever proposals I have to make. At the present moment you have in America the greatest possible difficulties going on as between the Federal Government and the different States on this very question of labour. You have child labour in one place at a lower age than in another. There are hours of labour and all these various kinds of difficulties. I can see in the Ulster Parliament very great difficulties arising as to whether we are to have different conditions and hours and wages there proposed by the Ulster Parliament from what are prevailing on the Clyde and on the Mersey, and so too in the linen trade from what are prevailing in Scot land. I am not at all sure whether it is better, if you do set up a Parliament in Ulster, or wiser that this question of labour might not be kept in the Imperial Reserved Services, but that is a detail on which we would want to know a great deal more before coming to a conclusion.

I am certain that the interests of Ulster and the interests of Great Britain are so interwoven that you are making a great mistake for both of them in trying to divide them. Why, Sir, look at what we will lose at the very outset. In the most important of all matters for a young Parliament starting with the conditions we wish to see in a great progressive community we will lose Imperial credit. At the present time if loans are raised and are distributed in Ireland they are borrowed on Imperial credit. You know how difficult it is to borrow over here now. When we start our Parliament in Ulster it will be started alone on Ulster credit, and what rate per cent. do you think we will have to pay? I take that as one instance, and that is at the very moment when, above all others, we will be put to expenditure in erecting our Government, and in the process of expansion, which will require large sums of money if we are to have a chance of running our Parliament successfully Let me look at it from the actual existing state of affairs in Ireland from a more Imperial point of view. Ulster is proud to have her full numbers in this House and to take her full share in all foreign matters, diplomatic matters and matters in relation to the Army and in relation to the Navy exactly as you do. She will to a large extent lose that, which I think will be a great loss. More than that, in the present state of affairs in Ireland, and I do press this on the Government, the Government ought to have a very clear and vivid picture in their own minds under existing conditions what is likely to happen when this Bill becomes law. Let them not, when the trouble arises, be hunting about as to how to deal with it. Let them make up their minds now how it is to be dealt with. Let me, for instance, put this to them.

If after this Bill is passed the Parliament of Southern Ireland is functioned by the election of the main body of Sinn Feiners, what will happen then? They can absolutely block the whole government of Ireland; in fact they could use what will be a constitutional engine to further their own interests and to further their own policy. That, of course, is a risk you have to take, and probably it is right that you should take it, and I am not quarrelling about it, but do let us have it clearly before our minds. They may do more than that. They may declare, as they have declared, from that Parliament a republic for the whole of Ireland and for Ulster, and they will have three-fourths of Ireland behind them to attack and assail Ulster. What are you going to do then? We will do our best, but it is idle for any man to pretend than an Ulster Parliament, or any other Parliament in the midst of a community of that kind, will not if they are thwarted in that way find very great difficulty in making progress as they would wish to do in the Parliament set up. No, Sir, I urge even now at this hour that the proper course is that Ulster should remain as she is and that you should govern her, as you are governing her now, from here; there is very little difficulty about it, and that you should above all things have it as a place of your own with feelings towards you exactly like your own people, and from which, if these eventualities occur, you will have a Jumping off place from which you can carry on all the necessary operations, because to my mind it is utterly idle to suppose, and indeed it has been said so over and over again, that this country ever can afford or will attempt to try a complete separation of Ireland from Great Britain. Why, if you had it during the last war you never could have won the War under the conditions that existed at sea at that time. Therefore I say try to look ahead, and, looking ahead, I believe the policy which we have urged from the beginning of retaining Ulster as she is now as part of the United Kingdom, and treating the people of Ulster exactly as you treat the people of Great Britain, is the truest and surest policy for His Majesty's Government to pursue.

6.0 P.M.

After the exceedingly powerful and cogent arguments of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) I imagine that the Government must think over the proposal which he supports. We have been brought to this extraordinary situation in reference to Ireland by the demand constitutionally put forward for a great number of years from three-fourths of Ireland that they should be given a measure of self-government. Pressed by this constitutional demand the Government have brought forward this Bill. The extraordinary thing is that they are not only in this Bill seeking to impose a measure of self-government on three-fourths of Ireland which three-fourths of Ireland does not ask, but they are seeking to impose on the part of Ireland which always said they did not want any Home Rule a form of Home Rule which their Leader has just told us they loathe and detest, and that they want to remain as they are at present. In the name of common sense and in the name of reason what possible object can His Majesty's Government have in forcing Ulster to accept this Bill which they do not want and which was not brought in because Ulster asked for it? It was brought in presumably because the rest of Ireland asked for it, but again I say in the name of common sense and justice and in order to avoid trouble why cannot the Government accept this Amendment proposed by my Noble Friend the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil)? With the greatest respect for the First Lord I think he did not answer a single one of my Noble Friend's arguments. He did not deal at all with Ulster. He simply said that the Bill had been brought in and that the Government meant to pass it, but that they had little hope that it would satisfy anybody and that all the prophecies were most gloomy. Surely we must ask from the Government in this great question some more light and leading and some more reasoned arguments when they are dealing with the most progressive part of Ireland or of the United Kingdom. May I make an appeal as one who has been Member of this House for a considerable time to those Members who call themselves Unionists? I still call myself a Unionist, and I intend to call myself a Unionist. I am quite sure a great number of hon. Members who call themselves Unionists and wish to be Unionists do not quite know what to do at present. Let those who belong to what is the largest party in this House consider this. We wish to support the Government and we wish to continue a Coalition Government as it is for various reasons. Let them get up and say to the Government, "`We will support your Bill as far as it, concerns Leinster, Munster and Con-naught, if you think it is going to do any good, but why in the name of common sense do you ask us to vote against this Amendment, which simply seems to exclude the one part of Ireland which has always been loyal, which supported us during the War, and which has never intrigued with our enemies?" Having put that simple proposition to the Government, I shall be very much surprised if they do not agree to exclude Ulster.

I speak with very great diffidence on this subject, but I think there might be some word heard from this side as, besides the Unionist party in this House, there is also a Liberal party. I am not sure whether it is the second biggest in the House—that depends on the particular brand of Liberal who is talking about the party—but I think one word might be said from our point of view. I wish to touch very briefly and with very great diffidence on the extremely powerful arguments of the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson), who spoke of the difficulty of differentiating between the labour laws and regulations in the United Kingdom, and he very rightly pointed out that the industrial north-east of Ireland is very similar to the industrial west of Scotland and north of England. May I point out that the tendency throughout the world to-day is to bring labour legislation more and more into line in all countries? We had a very historic meeting recently at Washington, to which representatives were sent even from the late enemy countries, and there far-reaching regulations, after great discussion, were agreed upon, and we are now waiting for the Government to put them into legislative operation. Particularly might I speak of one matter of which I have some small knowledge, and that is the question of merchant seamen. The Merchant Seamen's Union in this country is part of a great international union. It has members of all nationalities —Irishmen, Englishmen, Frenchmen, and others.

I cannot see the relevance of that. The Amendment pro- poses that there should be a Parliament for Southern Ireland, but not for Northern Ireland, and that is the only question.

With very great respect, I was endeavouring to meet an argument of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, who pointed out the desirability, for Labour legislation reasons, of keeping Northern Ireland within the legislative unit of this country. I think we should take a world-wide view of Labour legislation. However, I do not propose to pursue that any further. Might I address myself to what is an undoubted fact and give this warning to my hon. Friends who are speaking for Ulster here? Suppose this Amendment is carried and this separation takes place, I think I can say that one result will be a boycott by the South and the West of North-Eastern Ireland.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman said he does not mind that, but I think I am correct in saying that seventy per cent. of the trade of North-Eastern Ulster is done with the rest of Ireland.—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—I have different information. It may be right or it may be wrong, but I know this, that the commercial travellers from the great business houses of the North-Eastern cities of Ireland percolate throughout the southern and western provinces, and they do not go there for their health, but to do business.

With great respect, the Amendment is to cut out Northern Ireland from the political unit of Ireland, and I am endeavouring, very badly, to make my points.

I think the hon. and gallant Member has not seen the point. This Amendment only provides that instead of Ulster having a Parliament of its own, it shall remain under this Parliament.

Might I point out that, should that happen, the feeling of separation and of partition would be intensified. At the present moment I believe the ill-feeling which unfortunately exists in the South and West is directed against this country, but if this Amendment were carried out, by the apparent wish of the representatives of North-East Ulster, it would be turned upon them, and I believe I am correct in saying it might lead to a boycott. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said he did not mind that, but I would rather like to hear the opinion of the business men of Belfast and Londonderry on that point. My last reason is this. One of the arguments of the right hon. and learned Gentleman which struck me most was that it was necessary to keep the North-Eastern enclave as a jumping-off place—he almost said, in case it was necessary to reconquer Ireland. If that is the atmosphere in which we are going to consider this Bill, one of war, and campaigning, and strategical necessity, I do not see any use in proceeding further with it. If it is seriously considered that we may have in a few years to reconquer the South and West, and if it is necessary and desirable that we should do that why proceed at all with this Bill? It is because I believe this Amendment will only further inflame the present feelings in Ireland that I hope the Government will resist it.

My position, and that of some of my friends, is that we wish to see a Parliament established for the whole of Ireland, with the right of Ulster to stand out if and for so long as the people of Ulster wish it. That is our point of view. I understand the Amendment of the Noble Lord means a clean and permanent cut out of Ulster from the Irish Parliament.

If the hon. and gallant Member had been unlucky enough to be present when I spoke, he would have heard me explain that my view was that it was quite impossible to hope for any united Ireland except with the full consent of the people of Ulster, and that I thought this proposal was more likely, if and when there was a real united feeling in Ireland, to promote the unity of Ireland than are the proposals of the Government. That was one of the reasons which I gave for it, although not the only reason.

I very much regret that I was not able to be present to hear the Noble Lord's speech, but what he has now said only confirms me in my opinion, namely, that this Amendment in a sense goes in the direction we desire, namely, that the northern counties should have the option at some time of coming in if they wish. If that is so, I am prepared to vote for this Amendment, with the distinct understanding that we should, if the Amendment is carried, put into the Bill other words to give the people of Ulster the right by plebescite to decide whether they will come into the united Parliament or not, and if they will come in, when they will come in. On that understanding, I shall record my vote for this Amendment.

I think we have arrived at a very extraordinary position, because here is an Amendment of the very first importance, that touches the foundation of the Bill, and neither the Leader of the House nor the Minister in charge of the Bill is able to be present to aid the decision of the Committee. It is true the Minister in charge spoke earlier in the Debate, but really no reply has been made from the Government Bench to what appeared to me to be the perfectly unanswerable speech of the right hon. and learned Member for the Duncairn Division of Belfast (Sir E. Carson), and before the Committee votes against this Amendment, I would ask hon. Members to consider very carefully, especially those hon. Members who believe in Unionism as a political theory and principle, what they are about to do. We are asked to pass a Home Rule Bill for the South of Ireland, which has, by every vocal organ it possessed, already rejected it, but which has rejected it on the ground that it wants a far greater measure of independence. We are now asked to confer an independence upon Northern Ireland, which the leader of the Ulster party, speaking for and on behalf of all the Members for Ulster, declares is the last thing they want. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has told the Committee this afternoon that the only thing that Ulster wants is to be left as part of the United Kingdom, and I ask, therefore, by what right, by what reason, or by what logic do we insist on cutting Ulster off from our country?

I rise in response to the invitation of the hon. Member who asked that Back Bench Unionists should add their appeal to the Government to consider thins Amendment favourably, and I do so because, although there is really no more to be said after the powerful speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson), when he said that the industry of Belfast, Glasgow, and the Mersey were really one industry, it occurred to me that the Committee should be seized of that fact. Belfast, Glasgow, and the Mersey are bound together by indissoluble ties which have been formed since the Union. They do more trade together in one week than the rest of Ireland has done with Great Britain for the last seven hundred years. I therefore implore the Government to consider whether they cannot reconsider the Amendment. If it goes to a Division, there will be a great many supporters of the Government who will join in supporting the Noble Lord in refusing to excommunicate our brothers from Ulster.

First of all, I wish to apologise to the Committee for my absence during the earlier speeches upon this Amendment. I am extremely sorry that, owing to an important public engagement, which I could not miss, I was unable to hear the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) and the greater part of the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Duncairn Division (Sir E. Carson). I think there will be no difference of opinion among hon. Members that this is an Amendment which goes to the root of the Bill. It is an Amendment of a most fundamental character. The point raised by my Noble Friend is, in fact, a Second Reading point.

Yes, an alternative. That is to say, that he is presenting an alternative Bill.

I will reiterate my statement that this Amendment is really an alternative Bill. It reopens the question which was, in fact, settled by an immense majority of this House on the Second Reading Debate. Why is it that the Government came to the conclusion that two Parliaments should be established in Ireland? It came to that conclusion because it felt that no ultimate solution of the Irish question would be possible unless self-government were granted to every part of Ireland. We held that if part of Ireland were excluded from self-government, we should not be taking the first step towards the solution of the Irish problem, that we should be creating a new English pale in Ireland and that the old difficulties would remain as they were before. That, at any rate, is the view which the Government took and which the House of Commons accepted on the Second Reading Debate. Having come to the conclusion that no ultimate solution of the Irish question could be possible which did not proceed on the principle that self-government should be granted to every part of Ireland, we then had to consider in what form that self-government should be granted, and we came to the conclusion that it should be granted in the form of two Parliaments, one for the six counties, and another for the remaining portion of Ireland, and at an earlier stage of our proceedings we received from the right hon. and learned Member for the Duncairn Division the most gratifying assurance that if a Parliament were established for the six counties of the North, he on his part would do all he could to make it a success. We are very grateful to him for that assurance. We realise perfectly well that the right hon. and learned Member would have preferred' another solution. He has told us so with his habitual frankness and directness this afternoon, but, at the same time, he has also told us that he will throw the whole weight of his great influence in the direction of making the Northern Parliament a success, and I think we may assume that it will be a success, and that in the North Ireland will receive an exemplar of effective self-government.

We have been told on many sides that this is a Bill which nobody in Ireland wants. Let us analyse that statement. I have two observations to make on it. In the first place, because no politician in the South of Ireland will come into the open and say that he supports this Bill, can we conclude from that fact—

I hope the Debate is not going to run on those lines. That would be more appropriate to the Second Reading. I am anxious that the discussion on this Amendment should be confined to whether or not the six counties should have a Parliament of their own.

I, of course, bow to your ruling, and I will not depart from that line of suggestion. Really, in the speeches to which I did listen that point was raised, and I was replying to it, and was about to say that we could not attach too great importance to that particular line of argument, partly because we could not necessarily infer from the silence of Irishmen in the South that Irish opinion was definitely and finally against the Bill, and partly because this Bill does not seek to impose upon Ireland a cut-and-dried final solution of the problem, but does give to the two Parliaments very large powers, and opens up wide opportunities of amendment and constitutional development. There is also another argument against the Amendment of the Noble Lord. I have been very much struck in the course of the discussion upon this Bill to the great importance which Members in different quarters of the House attach to the preservation of the ideal unity of Ireland, and I believe that is a very real point. Although it is perfectly true that there are very deep and real variances between the Protestant North and the Catholic South, yet I believe there are many, batters in which they share the common sentiment of loyalty and attachment to their island home, and I cannot help thinking that any attempted solution of the Irish question which does not give some recognition of the unity of Ireland would be a solution which could not possibly satisfy Irish sentiment in the long run. The right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn exhorted the Committee to look ahead. It is because we are looking ahead that we are determined to frame the Bill with a view to giving self-government in every part of Ireland. Surely it would not be looking ahead to blind ourselves to the general development of principles of devolution in this country and throughout the Empire. Why, a Conference has been sitting on the question of devolution, and we are faced with the prospect of a very considerable measure of legislative devolution in the future. Is this the time, when we are considering the possibility of legislative devolution for Scotland, and possibly for Wales and England, to adopt the proposal of the Noble Lord? For these reasons I ask the Committee to vote against the Amendment.

The speech to which we have just listened was directed to convince the Committee that the Amendment ought to be rejected, because the Government are resolved to give self-government to every part of Ireland; that is to say, you are going against the wish of the Ulster Members. In spite of their vehement protest, you are going to force upon them a form of government they do not want, and you have the outrageous insolence to call that self-government. How can any person with any knowledge of the English language and of commonsense put forward an argument so grotesque as that? My right hon. Friend, like the Leader of the House the other day, defends the establishment of this Northern Parliament on the hope of establishing, eventually, unity in Ireland. Why is it thought more likely to achieve unity if you have a separate Parliament sitting in Belfast than by keeping the six counties in the United Kingdom? Surely the point is this: As soon as the people of Ulster want unity, they will have unity; but until they want unity, you cannot have unity. What does it matter whether you have a separate organisation or keep them as they are? Indeed, so far as you set up separate parliamentary institutions, civil service and they like, you do make a certain number of artificial barriers, which, even in spite of consent, might operate against unity. But, of course, the essential thing is that if the Ulster people want to have unity with the South they will unite, but if they do not want unity with the South they will not unite. You run no risk. You do not confer unity. Why, then, should you turn out the Ulster men from the government they like, and from a system of which they approve? The First Lord of the Admiralty said it was because the Government were making an honest attempt at a well-thought-out scheme of Federalism. The honesty I will not dispute, but was there ever a worse chosen epithet than "well-thought-out"?

This precious proposal, which corresponds, I venture to say, to no scheme of Federalism of which the world has ever heard, is going to fit, somehow or other, into the rest of the Federal system which is to be set up, some day or other, in England, Scotland, and Wales. If you are postponing four-fifths of your scheme, why not postpone the other fifth? When that well-thought-out scheme of Federalism, which the First Lord of the Admiralty cannot describe, but no doubt understands in his own mind, is going to be applied in England, Scotland, and Wales, at the same time it can be applied to Ulster, and, since Ulster wants it as little as England, Scotland, or Wales, I cannot see why there should be any doubt about that. No, the Government are proceeding on a principle which, I venture to say, any human being will call insane. They are forcing on people what they do not want, and calling it self-government. They are turning a perfectly-contented population out of the system of government they like, for no reason whatever, except that the First Lord thinks it will form part of a well-thought-out scheme of Federalism. That is not treating this problem seriously. Anyone who heard the most interesting speech of the right hon. and learned Member for the Dun-cairn Division will be convinced that the reasonable thing to do is to allow Ulster to remain as it is until it is converted, and wishes to join the S. and W. And why not? If the Government of the S. and W. is successful the Ulstermen will wish to join them; if not successful, they will never leave their Northern Parliament, and why should they? Obviously, the success of your scheme depends on the success of the Southern Parliament, and, if it is not a success, the scheme falls, and there is no reason whatever for driving Ulstermen out of the allegiance they like. Every argument is on the other side. It is only obstinate adherence on the part of the Government to a scheme, which they say they have thought out but cannot explain, and which does not conform to any scheme of Federal self-government or any other self-government or recognised principles of political action whatever, yet the Government persist in their plans. Were it not for this obstinacy, the Government would not resist a proposal conforming to the principles of self-determination and liberty, and impressively put forward on behalf of those entitled to speak for Ulster.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 204; Noes, 80.

Division No. 120.]

AYES.

[6.30 p.m.

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

Greer, Harry

Philipps, Gen. Sir I. (Southampton)

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Pilditch, Sir Philip

Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D.

Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Harris, Sir Henry Percy

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Atkey, A. R.

Haslam, Lewis

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Baird, John Lawrence

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Pratt, John William

Baldwin, Stanley

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Preston, W. R.

Barlow, Sir Montague

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Prescott, Major W. H.

Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals)

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Barnett, Major R. W.

Hills, Major John Wailer

Purchase, H. G.

Barnston, Major Harry

Hinds, John

Rae, H. Norman

Barrand, A. R.

Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G.

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Barrie, Charles Coupar

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Bennett, Thomas Jewell

Hood, Joseph

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Bethell, Sir John Henry

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple)

Bigland, Alfred

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Verge

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Hudson, R. M.

Rothschild, Lionel de

Borwick, Major G. O.

Hume-Williams, Sir W. Ellis

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Hurd, Percy A.

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Breese, Major Charles E.

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Samuel, Samuel (Wadsworth, Putney)

Brittain, Sir Harry

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Brown, Captain D. C.

Jephcott, A. R.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Jesson, C.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Seager, Sir William

Burdon, Colonel Rowland

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly)

Seddon, J. A.

Campbell, J. D. G.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Lambert, Rt. Hon. George

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Carr, W. Theodore

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Casey, T. W.

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P.

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Clough, Robert

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Lorden, John William

Stanton, Charles B.

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Steel, Major S. Strang

Colvin, Lieut.-Colonel Richard Beale

Lowe, Sir Francis William

Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

Conway. Sir W. Martin

M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Cope, Major Wm.

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

Sugden, W. H.

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

Courthope, Major George L.

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kin.)

M'Micking, Major Gilbert

Tickler, Thomas George

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Macquisten, F. A.

Turton, E. R.

Dalziel, Sir D. (Lambeth, Brixton)

Martin, Captain A. E.

Vickers, Douglas

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Mitchell, William Lane

Waddington, R.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Walters, Sir John Tudor

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

Morison, Thomas Brash

Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

Dawes, Commander

Morris, Richard

Waring, Major Walter

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Morrison, Hugh

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Edge, Captain William

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Mount, William Arthur

White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Edwards, John H. (Glam., Neath)

Murchison, C. K.

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Falcon, Captain Michael

Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Neal, Arthur

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Foreman, Henry

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak)

Forrest, Walter

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Gardiner, James

Palmer, Lieut.-Colonel G. L.

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Parker, James

Yen, Sir Alfred William

Gilbert, James Daniel

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Glyn, Major Ralph

Pearce, Sir William

Younger, Sir George

Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A.

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Green, Albert (Derby)

Peel, Col. Ho. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:—

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Percy, Charles

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Perring, William George

Ward.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D.

I Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Duncannon, Viscount

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Elveden, Viscount

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (0x. Univ.)

Galbraith, Samuel

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Child, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Hill

Greene, Lieut.-Col. W. (Hackney, N.)

Bonn, Corn. Ian H. (Greenwich)

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Gretton, Colonel John

Bonn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Blair, Major Reginald

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Hayward, Major Evan

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Burn. Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Hogge, James Myles

Holmes, J. Stanley

Moles, Thomas

Terrell, George (Wilts, Chippenham)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Wallace, J.

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Nield, Sir Herbert

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Oman, Charles William C.

Whitla, Sir William

Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey)

O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W.

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir M. (Bethnal Gn.)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Perkins, Walter Frank

Wilson-Fox, Henry

Lindsay, William Arthur

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Winterton, Major Earl

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Reid, D. D.

Wolmer, Viscount

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Remnant, Colonel Sir James F.

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Lynn, R. J.

Scott, Sir Samuel (St. Marylebone)

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

M'Guffin, Samuel

Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Mallaby-Deeley, Harry

Stewart, Gershom

Lord Robert Cecil and Colonel

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Ashley.

I beg to I move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the words "Parliamentary counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry and Tyrone, and the Parliamentary boroughs of Belfast and Londonderry," and to insert instead thereof the words "Province of Ulster."

The object of this Amendment is to extend the area of the Northern province from the six counties by constituting as the Northern area the complete province of Ulster. I submit that this Amendment is consistent with the fundamental purpose of the Bill. As I conceive it, and according to the speakers on both sides, the fundamental purpose of this Bill is to secure ultimate union in Ireland. But there is an absolute condition which certainly we, on this side of the Committee, accept, and to which I think the opposite side of the Committee are pledged, and that is that this union must be union within the Empire, and that under no circumstances, and at no time, must Ulster be forced into the union against her will. Granted that this is the purpose, I venture to suggest that to create as the Northern province the complete province of Ulster will not vitiate the safeguard for Ulster, but will, on the other hand, make for the ultimate purpose of union. I will, shortly, give my reasons.

In the first place, there is value in having as your Northern province the historic province of Ulster. The President of the Board of Education on the last Amendment spoke of the danger of creating a new "pale" in Ireland. An appeal for a complete Ulster has been very forcibly put by the representatives of the Ulster Council in the three excluded counties. They have laid particular stress on the essential unity which there has always been in Ulster, and the indivisibility of the nine counties. That is one reason, and after all, sentiment counts for much in these matters. Apart from that, there are very strong economic arguments in favour of having the nine counties rather than the six. I do not suppose anybody would deny that, as an economic whole, it is a thousand times more desirable to have a complete province than to have the six counties only. In the Manifesto published by the 26 representatives on the Ulster Council it was pointed out that practically the whole trade of Donegal was done with Derry. Further, railway administration is going to be an extremely difficult thing in this province unless it is a single province. I notice in that connection there is an Amendment down in the name of the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E Carson) to Clause 10, under which he proposes that the control of the railways should be taken away from the Council and should vest in the two Parliaments. That is an Amendment which commands a good deal of sympathy and support on this side. I can well understand that those who have to administer this northern area will find it absolutely essential that they should have control of the railways, and be able to see that they can make the railways within their area a working success, and that there is some risk unless the railways are put under their authority. If that is to be conceded, and if administration has to be vested in that Parliament, there would surely be almost insuperable difficulties in administering the railway in six counties instead of nine.

There is an Admendment on the Order Paper standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Duncairn, dealing with Sub-section (2) of Clause 10 which would take the control way from the counties. If that were done the con- trol would vest in the northern part, and it would be impossible to work the railways in those six counties as a separate entity, and they must be worked for the whole province.

It has been said against this proposal that the three counties are themselves opposed to it. I say nothing as regard the Unionists in the three counties. Obviously, they have a passionate desire that Ulster should remain united, and nothing can appeal more strongly to their fellow Unionists in the six counties than that desire. I do not believe that the wish to keep the province whole rests only with the Unionists in those three counties. It has always been assumed that, because in 1913 and again in 1916, the non-unionists in the three counties were in favour of separation from the remainder of Ulster that they would oppose a complete Ulster to-day. There is, however, one fundamental difference. In 1913 and 1916 the non-unionists in those three counties had to choose between Home Rule and no Home Rule, while to-day the alternative before them would not be Home Rule or no Home Rule, but Home Rule within the Parliament of Ulster or Home Rule within the Parliament of the, other three provinces of Ireland, which is a perfectly different proposition to that which was put for ward in 1913 and 1916.

Again, an argument which weighs very much with many of us is that put forward by Lord Salisbury in 1885, that in establishing any area of government it was important to make it as wide as possible, and bring in as many interests as possible, in order that the different interests might join and the mistakes of the one part might be corrected by the wisdom of another. I remember being much struck by one of the speeches made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn, in which he said: be, they will have solved not only for themselves, but for the rest of Ireland, the whole problem of the Irish position. I know this is more difficult, and it is easier to take the complete homogeneous six counties and to make them a success, but by taking those six counties you are not going to prove that Irish self-government can be a success, because what we have to prove is not that it can succeed in a homogeneous area, but that it can succeed in an area which is not homogeneous but a reproduction of all sections of the community, urban and rural. If Ulster makes up its mind, I believe it can be made a success.

I agree with every word the Ulster Members have said about the initiative of Ulster, which appeals to us all, and it has been of enormous value during the War and for years before the War. I ask if it is not possible to use that initiative in order to make this province a success, and if they do that, they will have solved the problem of Ireland. It will not be a case of the rest of Ireland winning Ulster, but of Ulster winning the rest of Ireland. I ask the Committee to consider this question from another point of view. Consider the position of the Unionists and the loyalists in Southern Ireland, even if we get our Second Chamber and all the safeguards we can devise. Even then, the position is going to be as difficult as any set of men can be brought face to face with. The best safeguard you can give them is to shew in the Northern province a government in which everybody can take a pride, and in which the minority in Ulster can take part. If you do that, you are providing the best safeguards that can be given to the Unionists in the south and west of Ireland.

If such a solution be found, it is one which I am sure will satisfy public opinion in our Dominions. I am not saying a word about America. This is a British problem, and I resent absolutely any suggestion that it should be treated in any other way. But it is not merely an English and an Irish problem, it is more; it is an Imperial problem. Ulster wants to have a solution which will satisfy Imperial sentiment.

In attempting to deal with the economic side, we have to consider whether in all the circumstances a complete Ulster as a complete province can be made to work. The objections lie much deeper than would appear at first sight. If one takes the figures of population alone of the whole province, the Protestant majority is something like 200,000 now. On the face of it, that is very large and something more than a workable majority, but that does not fairly express the position. Electoral divisions do not reproduce that proportion, and when the elections take place they might find themselves with a very narrow majority. That is a matter for serious consideration.

7.0 P.M.

It seems to me that there are two propositions to be considered in this connection. One is whether it is impossible for the ordinary work of government to go on under conditions like that, and the other is the broad question of any compulsion to come into a united Irish Parliament. The proposition that Government would be impracticable because the parties are so nearly even seems to assume that everybody who is not a Unionist is going to be determined not to work this Bill, and to try to make administration impossible. That is a position which I think was rejected by the Minister of Education on the last Amendment. It is inconceivable that all over Ireland everybody is going to maintain this hopeless attitude of opposition. The whole assumption we make is that there will be people who once they find that they have not to legislate only but to administrate, will assist. If that were not true, and if it were true that with the exception of the Unionists in Ireland everybody was determined to smash this Bill, then we are not justified in considering this measure at all. If it is not true that there will be such opposition it does not seem to me from the point of view of working the administration to be a fatal objection. What would be fatal if we did not carry it further would be if you put Ulster into the position that there would only be a majority of two or three Unionists in that Parliament, and that by a chance vote, they could be voted into a united Irish Parliament. If the suggestion as to nine counties were accepted, I would ask the Government whether they would put into the Bill the further special provision that Ulster should not be forced into a united Irish Parliament without something considerably more than a bare majority. It has been said that a safeguard of that kind is a paper safeguard. If that be so, all the safeguards which the Convention suggested were paper safeguards. Nearly every safeguard which exists in the constitutions of the civilised countries of the world is a paper safeguard. The constitution of the United States is full of paper safeguards; but as the events of the last few years has proved, they are binding to an intense degree. The circular published by the Ulster Unionist Council says:—

I had not intended to add anything to what my hon. and gallant Friend has just said, but should have preferred to wait to see what my right hon. Friend below me (Mr. Long) was prepared to say on the Amendment. I believe that the main difficulty which most of us feel who have watched these Debates, as far as they have gone, is that we are, in fact, discussing the Bill in the face of one situation, in the expectation, or perhaps the hope, that it will induce an entirely different situation. I suppose that that is responsible for the atmosphere of unreality which hangs over a good deal of the discussion which we have hitherto had. In Lord Morley's "Recollections," the opinion is quoted of a gentleman called "Giraldus Cambrensis," who gave it as his considered judgment that the Irish question will be settled slightly before the Day of Judgment—or, as one of my friends who is rather less optimistic suggests, rather shortly afterwards. It would, therefore, be unduly optimistic on our part to hope that our Amendment was going to antedate very much the conviction of that worthy. I think, however, that I am entitled to say, and that the Committee generally, whether they feel disposed to support my hon. and gallant Friend or not, will agree, that it is of the first importance that this wide issue should be brought to the test of full and frank discussion in this Committee, and that my hon. and gallant Friend has done a service in bringing it forward. When I put my name to this Amendment, I did so recognising that it was a matter upon which there would probably be the widest and strongest difference of opinion, and that the point was in the highest degree a debatable one. What I felt most strongly was that it was important that the objections which had been put to us privately should be stated publicly in the Committee, so that this country and Ireland might know the reasons that precluded the Government from adopting the course suggested by my hon. Friend.

Personally, I was not influenced by what my Friends from Ulster often remind me of, namely, the fanciful notion of the unity of Ulster. I was influenced by two considerations, to one of which my hon. Friend referred. That consideration was that, unless we really cherished the hope that this Bill may ultimately lead to Irish unity, neither I myself, nor, I suppose, anybody else, would have voted for the Second Reading, or would have been found supporting it here to-day. I have not yet found it necessary to part with the entire measure of faith that I have, as my Noble Friend the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) has found it necessary to do, in these Debates. If that be the general position of those who have felt able, so far, to support this Bill, in my judgment it was open to the gravest objection, on general principles, to make the line of division, if Ireland was to be divided, so nearly coincide with what is, unfortunately, the dividing line in Ireland to-day—namely, the religious division. That seemed to me to be the strongest objection. Further, it seemed to me undesirable to superimpose what I may call, speaking generally, an occupational division of the industrial as against the predominantly agricultural side of the question. I chanced, a few days ago, to read an extremely able memorandum which had been drawn up and signed by my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury (Mr. R. McNeill), and was included in the Report recently issued by Mr. Speaker on the Conference on the question of Devolution, over which he presided. In that memorandum my hon. Friend, arguing the general question of the division of England into subordinate units, laid it down as his considered opinion, that it was desirable that each unit should be predominantly identical in interest; that is to say, he thought it was desirable so to divide England, as to have a predominantly agricultural and a predominantly industrial England. With all respect to him, that is the exact reverse of what I consider to be desirable. I think that exactly the same conclusion of undesirability applies to the division of Ireland into two occupational divisions, and that is my second reason for supporting my hon. and gallant Friend.

I do not at all disguise from myself that it may very well be that the situation in Ireland has gone too far for us to be able to take risks such as may be, and no doubt are, involved in acceptance of this Amendment. I do not conceal from myself that what might have been possible a few months, or even a few weeks, ago, when we put down this Amendment, may not be possible to-day. Speaking for myself, and only for myself, and recognising that fact, and the immense difficulty of the part that my right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) and his friends have to play in this matter, and the manner in which they are playing their part, I am not disposed to add to their difficulties. Therefore, while my views, if we were legislating in vacuo on this matter, remain unaltered, I am bound to recognise the change that has come over the colour of the situation month by month, week by week, and day by day; and if those responsible for that country, and those who will be responsible for it if this Bill passes, feel strongly that this Amendment is unwise, I, for one, am not going to take the responsibility of endeavouring to force it upon them.

It is no exaggeration to say that there is no question in connection with this Bill which has caused the Government greater anxiety than the limitation of this province of Northern Ireland. There is immense force in the arguments which have been adduced by the two hon. and gallant Members who have spoken to this Amendment. I have listened very carefully to their speeches, and I think that all the arguments they used were sound and relevant to the issue. May I, however, briefly explain to the Committee the reasons why, after carefully balancing the case for the province of Ulster as against the case for the six counties, the Government ultimately decided upon the plan which is embodied in the Bill?

7.0 P.M.

We felt, in the first place, that to include three purely Catholic counties in the Northern Parliament of Ireland would be to create very great difficulties for the new Parliament which we intended to establish in that region. We have to remember that Protestant Ireland wants temperance legislation, labour legislation, and legislation upon education, which is not wanted by Catholic Ireland, and we felt that we should be saddling the Northern Parliament with great difficulties at the inception of its career if it started with these Catholic counties included. That is one consideration which affected us. Another consideration was this: it is perfectly true that the chance of a snap vote can be provided against, as the hon. and gallant Member who moved the Amendment indicated. On the other hand, we had reason to fear that if we were to select the whole province of Ulster, the new Parliament would labour under a certain sense of insecurity. It would feel: "We are not in for a very long lease of life; there may be a considerable increase in the Catholic population; our rule may be overturned; our ideas may not ripen." There was, therefore, a chance that the new Northern Parliament would not throw its zeal, energy and conviction into the tasks of local government. That is a serious consideration. Thirdly, is there not something in the view that if the population governed by the Northern Parliament is to-day, roughly speaking, hemogeneous in creed and in political outlook, that this very high denominational tension would be relaxed? If you have a Northern Parliament, governing not only a Protestant population, but also a Catholic population, not so very inferior in numbers, do you not run the risk of politicians on both sides keeping this religious fever at a considerable height? Is it not more likely by the other plan that you will create a sensible and a moderate political atmosphere, such as we have in this country, and which is so desirable, if possible, to transplant to the island across the St. George's Channel? That is certainly an important consideration.

This Amendment has been urged upon the Committee on the ground that the Province of Ulster will be more likely to unite with the rest of Ireland than the six-county area. There is, of course, considerable ground for assuming that that would be so. On the other hand, may it not be argued if, in the North of Ireland, the rivalries of Catholic and Protestant are kept alive by the mere fact that the position of the Protestants is not secure, that that will be creating an additional obstacle to the Union? Is it not possibly sound human psychology to assume that if the Protestants in the North are perfectly secure they will be more willing to devolve functions upon the Council of Ireland and to assist in the development of all Ireland's sphere of activity in a region where the conventional difficulties are wholly new, than if they were constantly fighting for their position against a very strong Catholic minority? These are all arguments which have appealed to the Government. I believe that in all these discussions there has been a tendency on the part of hon. Members who have desired to foster and to accelerate the union of Ireland to underrate the possibilities contained in the Bill before us in that direction. I believe they are much greater than is generally imagined, and I am strongly of opinion that the best road to effective union—and the only effective union will be union by consent—lies in the path that has been selected by the Government.

I desire in the first place to thank my hon. and gallant Friend for the attitude he took up, having regard to the difficulties of the situation in Ireland, with reference to this Amendment. The Committee will readily believe me when I say that nothing has given me more distress, in the whole of this controversy, than the fact that we should be separated from any part of Ulster at all. I have incurred some odium from some of my own very old friends, who have worked with me all through these difficult times in the past, because of the line that has been taken up with reference to the Six counties as against the Nine. I have a passionate longing, if it were possible, to get in with us certainly the Unionists who are in Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan, who have in the past supported us under far greater difficulties naturally than the Unionists in any other part of Ulster, and I can assure my hon. Friends who have supported the Amendment that if I, and those who act with me, were able to see a possibility of carrying on the Government successfully in Ulster, I should be the very first to get up here and to say that I cordially welcomed the Amendment. Do not imagine that we lightly came to the conclusion that we could support the Bill as it stands. We called in six or seven hundred delegates from the whole of Ulster, we thrashed this out—I am glad to say with very good temper all round—we heard what the delegates had to say from the three counties, and from the six counties. I do not say they were all unanimous, that would not be true, but a very vast majority of the delegates representing the whole of Ulster were in favour of maintaining the Bill as it had been brought in by the Government. Therefore, I at all events, approached this Amendment with the view of accepting it if I could, so far as I am concerned, and of supporting it; but the truth is that we came to the conclusion, after many anxious hours and anxious days of going into the whole matter, almost parish by parish and townland by townland, that you would have no chance of successfully starting a Parliament in Belfast which was to be responsible for the government of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. It would be perfectly idle for us to come here and pretend that we should be in a position to do so. We should like to have the very largest area possible, naturally. That is a system of land grabbing that prevails in all countries for widening the jurisdiction of the various Governments that are set up; but there is no use in our undertaking a Government which we know would be a failure if we were saddled with these three counties.

The figures will at once show where the difficulty comes in. We have to refer in these matters to Protestant and Catholic —we should only be making the very greatest camouflage of argument if we did not treat them in that way, because these are really the burning questions over there. The inclusion of these six counties would bring in under the jurisdiction of the North of Ireland Parliament 820,000 Protestants out of 890,000 in the whole province. On the other hand, while you would leave out 70,000 who are in these three counties, you would bring in from these Three Counties into the Northern province an additional 260,000 Roman Catholics. It would be in the far, out-lying districts of Donegal and Monaghan and Cavan where, if there were any resistance to the Ulster Parliament at all or any non-acquiescence in it it all, that it would be utterly impossible for that Parliament to carry out its administrative functions. One of the matters that has always influenced me more than anything else with regard to what is called—I think, wrongly called—the division of Ireland is, as the Minister for Education said, that it is far better to face these facts as regards the religious difficulty, and not leave the religious difficulty in the new Parliament as the outstanding feature of policy on one side or the other. If you took a Parliament for the whole of Ireland, and brought the Ulster people down into that Parliament, what would be the great dividing matter between them? It would be Protestants and Catholics. If you divide them in the way you are dividing them in the Bill, the Southern Parliament will be predominantly. Catholic, far more predominantly Catholic than the Northern Parliament will be predominantly Protestant. What are the chances then? When you have put these matters outside, and the predominant faction feel themselves absolutely secure, the division of parties will be on entirely different lines. That there will be divisions I have not the slightest doubt; it would not be Ireland if you had no divisions, but the divisions will not be on religious lines. Very likely in the North of Ireland they will be on Labour lines to a very large extent. I think, and I have always said so, that the North of Ireland Parliament will be very largely a Labour Parliament. I think the South of Ireland Parliament, at all events for a time, will be very largely an Agricultural Parliament, and that agricultural interests will largely predominate there. But that they will diverge on this kind of question and not upon religious questions is, I think, of great advantage to both. All our own personal friends have come to the conclusion that it is far better to start these Parliaments as homogeneous units on the question of religion. I would say to my old friends in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan, and to the Committee, that it is far better for them to have a strong Ulster in their immediate neighbourhood and a strong Parliament there than a weak Government in Belfast which would not really be able to bring home the advantages of sound and consistent government to the different counties in which they lived. I believe if the Parliament of the north of Ireland is strong, that, will bring home benefits to the neighbouring counties although they will not be under its jurisdiction. I would also say to my friends there that I think they will make a great mistake if, because they are under a different Parliament though in the same country, they try to cut themselves off from political associations with their friends in the other part of Ulster. Therefore I oppose this Amendment out of no spirit whatsoever of hostility towards these three counties. On the contrary, I do it with sincere regret that we should be severed from any of those who have been with us in the contests of the past, but I do it simply and solely because I do not believe any other solution will give a practical result in Ulster.

Nothing could have exceeded the moderation and courtesy with which the right hon. Gentleman has put the case forward that, theoretically, before the Amendment was moved, many of us, including myself, thought it was a bad one, but actually I believed it to be a good one. Theoretically, it may perhaps be a bad case, because all the arguments used by all of us, including Members of the Ulster party, at the time of the Home Rule Bill of 1912 with reference to the Loyalist minority in Ireland, might equally be used with regard to the Loyalist minority in the three counties to-day, but after all, there are other points at issue. My hon. and gallant Friend who proposed the Amendment, made a reference to the great administrative ability which was to be found in the province of Ulster as a whole. I am not quite sure that I followed his reasons for making that statement, because, as a matter of fact, there is administrative ability to be found amongst all classes of Ireland, as is proved by the fact that Irishmen who emigrate from the South of Ireland are often found in big positions in America. The point is not so much as to the administrative ability to be found either in the six or in the nine counties. The real point at issue seems to be, is the Government going to function if there are nine counties in the Bill? I regret that I do not find myself in entire agreement with everything my hon. Friend (Mr. E. Wood) has said. He said he would not have voted for the Bill at all. Few of us would have supported this, had we not believed it was going to lead to the ultimate unity of Ireland.

I am not sure that I can go quite so far as my hon. and gallant Friend in saying that the only possible reason for voting for the Bill is in the expectation or hope that it may lead to the ultimate unity of Ireland. It seems to me the situation is somewhat different. It is at any rate a logical attitude for some of us to take up who have supported the Bill, though remaining strong Unionists in our hearts, on the ground that it is absolutely necessary that some possible form of government for Ireland shall be found. Many of us believe the position of Ireland at present is frankly impossible, and must be ended, and it is for that reason that we support the Bill with the Government's proposal for two Parliaments. Judged by that formula of a posible government for Ireland, and not by the formula adopted by my hon. and gallant Friend, of leading to ultimate unity, although I certainly intended to support the Amendment when I came to the House, I believe, on the whole, it should not be passed, because it would render less possible the effective function- ing of the Government. The argument which most appealed to me which has been used by my right hon. Friend is that after all when you have these two Parliaments set up, the lines of demarcation may be very different from what they are at present, which was a very true argument and is an answer to some of the accusations which have been made by the hon. Members opposite that his attitude and that of his Friends is only selfish. Therefore, on the whole, I believe the possibility of the Government of Ireland functioning will be greater than it would be if the nine counties were put in, and I cannot see my way to support my hon. and gallant Friend. I think it is a sad situation in which we are placed, which applies to all Unionists, that we should be compelled by the force of circumstances to desert our friends in the three counties, whose situation will, I think, be made very little better by the fact that there is a strong Government next door. It seems to me rather an optimistic view that that will render their position easier. In any case, I am afraid their situation will be a very grave and serious one, but it will not be graver or more serious than will be the situation of this Empire if the present conditions of affairs in Ireland remains.

I think on the whole I shall not vote at all. I feel the utter unreality of discussing this or any other Amendments in the present state of Ireland. All the arguments have been in favour of the Amendment. I have not heard one which was not in favour of it. The Noble Lord (Earl Winterton) remarked that it involves on the part of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) an abandonment and a flagrant breach of the solemn pledge.

I will read the words of the pledge in which the Noble Lord and the Leader of the House declared they would take up arms against His Majesty's Government, which was

"At this time of threatened calamity we hereby solemnly pledge ourselves to stand by one another."

Now they are proposing to desert the three counties because it suits their interests. What is the reason for this? I really do not think the Minister for Education met the case at all. He did not deal with the real point. What is the objection to having an Ulster which is fairly representative of all interests, and which would divide itself into agriculture, and labour, and the other interests, and not on religious lines? The objection is that Ulster would want to unite with the rest of Ireland. It is perfectly obvious that that is the reason. We heard the Government go on with this solemn pretence that they was a united Ireland, when the Ulster party say that on no account will they have a united Ireland, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain C. Craig) admitted on the first evening of the Debate.

I will read what the hon. and gallant Gentleman said—

"Under present circumstances to talk about unity between the North and the South is absurd nonsense."

I think this Government has been terrorised by a small ascendancy party from Ulster long enough. This partition of Ireland is a brand new idea of the last ten or fifteen years.

We had better adjourn this till a more appropriate occasion. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman kindly keep strictly to the Amendment?

I am dealing with the partition of Ulster on these lines— the six counties or the whole province—and I will adhere strictly to it and will not be terrorised by the right hon. Gentleman. There is only one reason against the Amendment, and that is that it would create an Ulster which would desire a united Ireland. That is the reason the Ulster Party is opposing it, because the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Craig) says he does not want a united Ireland.

Because I believe in Ireland a nation. I am dealing strictly with the Amendment. The reason the nine counties are opposed by the Ulster Party is that they would wish to unite with the rest. The reason the Government oppose it is that they are pledged to the Ulster Party. We had it from the First Lord of the Admiralty in the last Debate when he said:

"I have said it before and I say it again, that our limitations or, if you like, our pledges, make it perfectly clear that the position of these two Parliaments must be absolutely independent."

I do not know whether it is worth while interrupting the hon. and gallant Gentleman, but I was referring to pledges given by Ministers of different Governments and not of this Government, and to the fact that both the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Asquith) and the Prime Minister have successively, as the heads of two Governments, given a distinct pledge that they would not compel Ulster to come under a single Parliament.

I cannot pursue that because it would obviously be out of order. If I were permitted by the Chair I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman to tell me when my right hon. Friend (Mr. Asquith) ever pledged himself to a Parliament for Ulster.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is very skilful in drawing interruptions which lead to the widening of the Debate. I cannot permit it to be widened in that way.

My right hon. Friend (Mr. Long) was putting an argument against the argument of my hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Benn), and I would like to ask whether my hon. Friend is not entitled to give a reply, however brief it may be, to the point which the right hon. Gentleman put against him?

On that point of Order. The right hon. Gentleman is entirely mistaken. I was not making a point against the hon. Member. The hon. Gentleman quoted my language in support of his contention that we were acting under the domination and orders of the Ulster party. That was his statement, and he quoted language of mine which referred to a totally different question. I intervened in order to prevent misrepresentation.

It was not intervention; it was a correction. If I once allow this sort of thing it will extend wider and wider. I must set my face determinedly against it, and I will ask hon. Members to keep to the Amendments as they arise.

I have a very firm intention not to contravene the ruling of the Chair. I will again summarise my argument. It is that the reason the Government do not accept the Amendment is because they are under the orders of the Ulster party, and the Ulster party will not accept the Amendment, because they realise it will be one step in the direction which the Government profess to desire of a united Ireland.

I do not propose to follow the hon. and gallant Gentleman, because I am quite sure that his methods of attributing motives are only likely to get the Committee into trouble, and not to clear up the extremely difficult point which is bound up with this Amendment. I have a difficulty in supporting the Amendment, and that is the position of Donegal. In connection with problems of administraItion and other matters of government, it will be extremely difficult to cut that county adrift from the northern province. Donegal is in quite a different position to the other two border counties. Under the Six Counties plan it would be literally cut off geographically from the South and West of Ireland, because the Six Counties cut right across it, and if you want to get from Dublin to the headquarters of the Government in Donegal, it will be necessary to go through the Six Counties. I have down an Amendment dealing with this particular point. May I say a word as to the railway problem. The whole railway system of Donegal is bound up with the railway system of Belfast and Derry. It has no connection with the railways which run in the south and southwest of Ireland, and therefore geography practically dictates the necessity of placing Donegal under Ulster. What would be the effect of that? You would have just over 800,000 Protestants represented in the Ulster Parliament as against 500,000 Catholics, that is to say, you would have a majority of 300,000 Protestants. I quite agree that the whole question of the future largely depends on the manner in which the Ulster Parliament is going to maintain its religious and party character; upon that will depend very largely how far the Protestants will hold a dominant position. The Amendment which I have on the Paper is as to the desirability of including Donegal in the northern province, but I would rather discuss that point on the present Amendment than trouble the Committee with a separate Amendment. I want to know whether there is likely to be any support for that view, and if there is any hope of my being supported in the proposal to include Donegal in the northern province. It is a matter really for practical discussion, and I would ask the Government to state their views upon it, and to say whether it is not essential, in the interests of economic working, that Donegal should be differentiated from the other two border counties.

In view of the economic reasons advanced in support of this Amendment, I feel myself inclined to vote for it. On the other hand, I am in some difficulty with regard to the speeches made by the right hon. Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson). The Committee must have a certain amount of sympathy with the right hon. Gentleman in his difficult task of explaining his reasons for deserting his Unionist friends in the three border counties. I am much interested in a statement which has been put into my hands and which emanates from the delegates for Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan, to a meeting of the Ulster Unionist Council on the 10th March. Perhaps the Committee will allow me to briefly refer to the statement. It begins by drawing attention to the covenant to which the right hon. Gentleman and his friends subscribed in 1918, and in which they solemnly pledged themselves to stand by one another, and to defend for themselves and their children their cherished position of citizenship in the United Kingdom. The statement goes on to say, that, in common with their fellow Unionists in the other counties of Ulster, the Unionists of the border counties did all in their power to give effect to the covenant, and it then asks if it is open for one portion of those which subscribed to the covenant to desert the remainder. They ask, "Why not stand by one another," and "What was the object of the covenant if we are not to do that?" Then comes an interesting reference to a meeting of the Ulster Unionist Council, and this is a point which requires to be considered in connection with the Vote we are taking to-night. In this statement they complain that the delegates had not sufficient time to consult the local associations, except in a few instances. The meeting was hurried, and several delegates from different counties who desired to speak were refused a hearing. I assume that statement is put forward by a responsible body of delegates. Then it goes on to state that the meeting was misled, that it was represented that a Parliament of the Nine Counties would have a Nationalist and Sinn Fein majority, and that Mr. Moles had had the hardihood to assert that it would consist of 33 Nationalists and 31 Unionists, although as was pointed out, the population of Ulster consists of 890,000 Protestants, and 690,000 Catholics. In this connection I was surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Education, in the speech he delivered a few mintes ago, talk of "the three purely Catholic counties" which had a considerable number of Unionists among them.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman does not know that in 1912–14, the period when the old Bill was going through, the province of Ulster returned one more Nationalist member than it did Unionists.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman should allow me to proceed. I think I can show that his fears are groundless, so far as the future is concerned. We are not now dealing with 1912. What were the figures of the last election? For the nine counties, 38 Members were returned, 23 were Unionist, and 1b Nationalists and a majority of 8 Unionists. Does not that satisfy the hon. and gallant Gentleman? The statement goes on to say that the right hon. Member for Duncairn pointed out that the new Bill gave Ulster 64 Members and on the basis of the last election, there would be 38 Unionists and 26 Nationalists returned, a Unionists majority of 12. I venture to submit to the Committee that these are material figures which must affect the decision to be come to to-night. If the fear of religious oppression, to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, were indeed serious, it would be a matter for consideration, but in view of the figures I have given it does seem to me that these fears are groundless, and that this Amendment, if carried, would lead more rapidly to the unity of Ireland than the right hon. Gentleman and his friends think.

8.0 P.M.

The speech to which we have just listened appears to me to be one of the most astonishing speeches I have ever heard in this House, coming as it does from an hon. and gallant Member who is a strong democrat. Indeed the whole Debate to-night has been full of astonishment. All sorts of arguments have been put forward, arguments based on railway communication, on the difficulties of the government, on numbers, and 41 other considerations. What is the proposal? The proposal is to bring three new counties under the Ulster Parliament. No one seems to consider what the population of those counties desire, which seems to me to be the real thing to consider. I know that is not what the Government understand by self-government. Their conception is something which the Minister of Education, for whom I have great respect, and other politicians who have a great belief in theory consider to be for the advantage of the governed. My view of self-government is what the governed desire. Can you doubt that if there were a poll of these three counties there would be an overwhelming majority in favour of being under a Southern Parliament? It is not for me to defend my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) who of all men in this Committee does not require any external defence. But when my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel A. Murray) opposite suggests that he is in any way deviating from the pledge of the Covenant, let me remind him what the Covenant is. It is this— "We all stand together to resist home rule." That is a perfectly understandable Covenant.

My right hon. Friend has now told the Committee that he loathes this Bill. I wish that he were even more vehement in his opposition. If the three counties were brought in, the only result would be, assuming, as we do always for the purpose of this discussion, that there is no hope of fair government from the Catholic majority, that they would be put under a Parliament in which there was a very small and precarious majority to protect them. They would have practically no protection. I do not see that they would be in the least advantaged. There is nothing whatever to be said in favour of the Amendment. I cannot conceive how it would promote unity in Ireland, unless you seriously think that by putting in nine counties you willcreate an assembly which, by some accidental conversion, will vote in favour of union. Do you really think that that is going to produce union? Of course not. You will never produce a united Ireland until you get a united people in Ireland. That is what all people ought to aim at, and not the creating of ingenious machinery by which one section can be put under another section, and all the rest of it. If you are to have Home Rule—I am not arguing that now—you must aim at the unity of Ireland. I would make it a thing that will be successful, and by convincing the people of Ulster, induce them to join. That is the only way in which you can do it.

These two Parliaments which are being created are sovereign Parliaments, and have actually the right to alter the franchise, and if you put these three counties into the Northern Parliament and you get a very narrow partisan majority in that Parliament, you create such great pressure, so to jerrymander the franchise as to make sure of a permanent majority, that it would be almost irresistible. Delegates from the three excluded counties have said that in the first Parliament they were sure to get a majority, and once they got the majority, they could alter the franchise so as to make that majority permanent. The temptation would be almost too great to resist. I desire to refer to the Amendment, which seems a reasonable one, of my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Ormsby-Gore), I do not think that the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) could have read that Amendment, when he said that the wishes of the inhabitants of those counties had never been mentioned. That is undoubtedly the unreality of the discussion, but if Donegal should prefer to be with the other six counties, there is no reason whatever why Donegal should not be with them.

But the Amendment actually provides that in the case of Donegal, if the majority of the electors registered as Parliamentary electors express the desire by a special vote to stay with the six counties, they should be allowed to stay with them. That seems to be a practical point which we might very well discuss. The cutting off of the County Donegal from the Southern Ireland, from which it is completely cut off by land and the railway system, is a serious point, and if you ask the people in that county whether they wish to remain with the six counties of Ulster and they say "Yes," there is no reason why they should not stay. There is no danger of their altering the majority on the Northern Parliament and there is no temptation to jerrymander the franchise on that account. I confess that I have no confidence in the Ulster Members, so far as I have seen and heard of them. I think that if they had a majority of one in their first Parliament, the first thing they would do would be to make certain that the next time that the majority would be one of from ten to twenty or anything up to 90 per cent., which they would call a working majority. But that is simply by the way. You are cutting off six counties, which is going to give them an overwhelming majority.

Nationalist Members on those Benches who have spoken with me privately have said—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"]—I am simply mentioning private conversations which I have had with Nationalist Members, and I think that it is quite in order to say, at any rate, that you will find in the majority of cases that people desire that the Ulster men should have a big working majority, because that is the only way you can get them to work anything. They are a timorous set of people. I can understand the position, with murder, outrage, and rapine of every description going on in the south. I can understand that they would hesitate to join in any sort of union with the Southern Parliament. But they have got to be left to develop the new system without the continuous beating of the religious drum. Therefore the nine counties is an absolute chimera as a solution, but I do think that we might discuss the immediately practical proposal that the people of Donegal, if they desire, should be allowed to stay with the six northern counties. We should then have seven counties under the Northern Parliament and if they do not desire it we should then go back to the six original counties proposed by the Government.

I do not regret bringing forward this Amendment. What has been said this afternoon has been useful. I think that there was a great deal of misconception outside on this point. I am glad that we on this side have said what we have said, and I am particularly glad that the statement by my right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn has been made, because it will make things easier here and there. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Hon. Members with whom I am associated have decided, after fully considering the provisions of the Bill, to vote upon this Clause, and throughout the remaining stages to take no part whatever in the progress of the Bill. That decision is not dictated by any desire to embarrass the Government or to add to its difficulties with regard to the internal divisions of Ireland. It is a decision reached because we are convinced of the utter hopelessness and futility of seeking a solution of the Irish difficulty on the lines of this proposal. Naturally, as representing Labour in a great degree, we have sought a view from responsible Labour quarters in Ireland, and the Irish Labour party and Trade Union Congress have sent us a communication in which they say: against the Government proposal. Speaker after speaker representing Unionist views, and even those who do not share such views, look on the establishment of a second Parliament in Ireland as a fatal move, not merely in relation to Irish unity, as it is called, but in relation to the restoration of conditions of internal peace in Ireland which we all desire to see. The position of the Government appears to be that as they cannot offer to Ireland what is likely to succeed if it were offered, they must impose upon Ireland a measure which is doomed to failure. Labour is opposed to this Bill and will vote against this Clause because it is a Bill which will divide the South from the North and divide a part of the North from the North itself. Those who do not believe in these bitter religious animosities in Ireland and who would scorn to try to set up any kind of governing body, even a parish council, in this country on the basis of religious opinion, should be equally careful of still further strengthening and fostering feelings of religious bigotry as they exist in different parts of Ireland. In these days it is absurd to set up a Parliament in one part of the country because it will be a Catholic and Nationalist Parliament, and to set up a Parliament in another part of the country because it will be a Protestant and Unionist Parliament. I marvel at hon. Members, who are themselves so tolerant and broad-minded in religious matters, agreeing to go into the Lobby in support of a proposal which so nicely carves up the territory of a particular country merely because of the religious complexion of the inhabitants there. We suggest that that line of action is all the more inadvisable, and indeed likely to be all the more ruinous to Irish interests for the very reasons that were frankly admitted by the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson).

Are we now, when we are faced with the probability, I do not say of the breakup, but of a very great modification of the apportionment of party strength in this country as well as in Ireland, and when, as in that country, Labour candidates both in North and South have met with considerable success when run apart from Sinn Fein on the one hand and apart from Unionism on the other hand —are we to regard this as an appropriate time to foster still further these bigotries? The Labour party cannot look on this proposal as holding any prospect whatever of the slightest good coming to Ireland. It withholds from the greater part of Ireland its eternal and just demands. It imposes upon a lesser part of Ireland the very thing which it does not want. If the choice were between including Ulster in the United Kingdom and conceding to Ulster, or rather imposing upon Ulster, a separate Parliament, there would be a good deal to be said for leaving Ireland within the United Kingdom. The Government does not appear to be able to choose the lesser of two evils, but must of necessity force something on Unionist opinion which is against its desires and at the same time set up two Parliaments which will be in internal conflict with each other and which, because they are two Parliaments, will only longer delay the day of Irish unity. We object to the fostering of religious differences by Act of Parliament; other agencies have existed long enough to fulfil that harmful purpose. I agree with the Noble Lord (Lord H. Cecil) that the best thing that can be done for Ireland at the moment is to withdraw this Bill. The Government is faced with enormous difficulty in respect of the condition of Irish Government. Ireland has had different methods employed at different times—coercion, conciliation, and indeed methods of social reform and agricultural reform. These things have all been tried at different times, but they have never before been all tried at the one time and it appears that that is the position to-day. Here we are considering a measure which in the minds of the vast majority of Members in all parts of the House is felt to be one which is utterly unworkable and which, if it passes into law, will only prove how completely we have wasted the time of the Imperial Parliament in dealing with the enormous Irish difficulty on these lines.

I have heard the announcement which the right hon. Gentleman has just made with profound regret. When he states that the Bill will prove unworkable I do not think that is a contention which can justly be drawn from the Debates which have already taken place on this Bill, and I should be very interested if he had told us what there is in this Bill in its practical operation and in the powers conferred on these local bodies and the opportunities given to exercise them that would make the Bill inoperative. As a matter of fact, he and his friends supported a Bill which gave the same powers. The only difference was that it gave them to one Parliament.

That has nothing to do with the working of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman declines to have anything more to do with this Bill, and washes his hands of it, because he says the Bill cannot be made to work. I ask, why? The operative Clauses of this Bill, when you depart from one as against two Parliaments, are the same Clauses as those in the Bill of 1914, which the right hon. Gentleman and his party strongly supported and declared would make a new charter of freedom and liberty in Ireland. Why, then, object to this Bill? The right hon. Gentleman and his friends will not support this Bill because they have always steadfastly declined to face the facts. He told us now that this is a delibertae attempt to legislate for religion. I do not know how much time the right hon. Gentleman with his great abilities has given to a study of the Irish problem. I venture to say that there is nobody who dislikes the idea of religious differences and differences based on religious convictions or religious intolerance more than I do, but my right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) made it perfectly plain in the powerful speech he delivered earlier that unless you recognise the religious divisions and get rid of the separations you will never get your Parliaments broken up, as otherwise they would be, into different bodies based upon ordinary political ideals and convictions. I remember discussing this years ago with a leading supporter of the Nationalist party, and he told me this: "I frankly admit that I am supporting this Bill because once we have a Parliament in Ireland, though it will have a Catholic majority at first, it will be a Parliament which will be divided on a totally different basis, with Conservatives as against Liberals or Labour against whatever description you like to give." It is exactly for that reason to-day, because we want to see these Parliaments stable and because we want to see them functioning, that we have deliberately decided to have two Parliaments.

Earlier in the afternoon it was suggested in an amendment that I used language which justified the charge that, in connection with the establishment of a single Parliament we were controlled by the Ulster people and by Ulster opinion. There is really no foundation for that charge, as I will show in a minute. Successive Governments, headed by different Prime Ministers, composed, naturally, of Members of different views, and both Coalition Governments, when they had to approach this question decided that it would be impossible to coerce Ulster and bring her under a single Parliament. What does that bring you to? It brings you to this position—that in any legislation you must face the fact of either leaving Ulster out or having two Parliaments. Therefore, the real objection which the right hon. Gentleman the leader of the Labour party has to this Bill is that we have faced the facts. If that right hon. Gentleman had a majority as big as any that has ever been behind a Government in this country, and if he tried to force a single Parliament on Ulster, he would meet the same fate that overtook the Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith), and which will overtake anybody who tries to force the people of Ulster under a Parliament sitting in Dublin or anywhere else. That is the situation we had to face.

What was the duty cast upon the Committee, over which I presided, by the Prime Minister. My colleagues and I were not told to go and draw up a Home Rule Bill. What we were told to do was to examine the whole Irish position, its history and its present bearings, and to make a recommendation to the Prime Minister and the Cabinet as to what the right policy ought to be. We did most exhaustively examine the Irish question. We went into its past history and examined the pledges made by the Member for Paisley and by the Prime Minister, and we came to the conclusion that if you are to have local government in Ireland at all, the only way you can possibly get it is by setting up two Parliaments and by boldly facing the facts and dividing Ireland into two parts, and to give to each power to govern themselves and giving them also the power and facilities to enable them to come together into one Parliament. On his question of one single Parliament opinions differ and vary. I firmly believe, as I have said before, that you will never settle theses questions, and other questions into which I cannot enter now, until you boldly face the facts and have a federal system for the United Kingdom. This Bill is drawn in such a way as to fit in with a federal system. It is easy enough to say sharp and bitter things about Ministers who are in charge of Bills. My experience is that, whit. those sharp saying give great pleasure to those who utter them, they do not do much harm to those against whom they are uttered, and so I put up with them.

This particular proposal of which this is the governing Clause is to fit in with a federal system. So far as I am concerned, speaking not only for myself but for those with whom I work in support of the federal plan, we supported the federal plan and we had no objection, to use a common illustration, to the building of the Irish wing first so long as you could complete the rest of the building That is what we believe and that is what this Clause does. It proposes to set up in Ireland two Parliaments and to get rid of all the real difficulties. We had two speeches from my right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson). In one of them he spoke with all his heart, as I know well, the feelings of Ulstermen as to this separation, and he spoke with equal power and equal dignity and equal assurance when he came to what the Irish Parliament would do in the future. The right hon. Gentleman who moved the rejection of this Clause or, rather, offered opposition to it, takes, like my Noble Friend the Member for Hitchen (Lord R. Cecil) a gloomy outlook. Some day or other, I suppose, we shall all have to account for our actions, and although I may have made mistakes in the part which I have taken in connection with the relations of Ulster to this Rome Rule for Ireland question, I have nothing to reproach myself with, and above all I have this souce of gratification—my friends and I, for we are all acting together—and that is that we are trying in a practical way to give to Ireland a form of local government which, though she may say she dislikes and will not have it, I believe when the time comes she will have, and she will find it will work properly. My right hon. Friend spoke of the difficulties which would be in Ulster's way if she had to govern with a narrowly divided Parliament, and that that was the reason that governed them in coming down on the side of the six counties of Ulster. Does the Committee believe that if Ulster is governing herself well, if her Parliament is functioning, if she is carry the legislation that her people want, if she is removing the grievance—which is in itself almost more than a grievance, a scandal—that to-day in Belfast there are 20,000 or 30,000 children for whom school accommodation cannot be found, if she is able to deal as she would like to deal with the temperance question, in regard to which she is far in advance of the South of Ireland or indeed of the rest of the United Kingdom, if she is able to do all these things to the advantage of her people, does the Committee not think it will have its effect upon Southern Ireland?

The whole Committee—I do not care to what party hon. Members belong—want at all events one thing, and that is that Ireland should give up this course of unrest, that this crime should be stamped out, and that she should address herself to her own prosperity and the securing of her own advantage. That is what we all want, to whatever party we belong. Which way do you think you are the more likely to get it, by trying to force on the whole of Ireland a Parliament that they will not have, as regards Ulster, or by giving to Ireland, as we do in this Bill, the opportunity to set up two Parliaments, with facilities for uniting if they should so desire in the future, or of remaining separate under a federal system? I confess I get rather tired of those who think they are serving their country by always prophesying ill of all that is being done by those who are trying to bring forward a practical proposal. If I had to choose between making bitter speeches, forecasting nothing but disaster, and helpful proposals, I would much rather play the part of the man who is making an earnest effort to secure a reform which we believe to be well constructed, which we believe the country will in the long run accept, and which we believe, when it is accepted, will be found to be beneficial for the country in whose interests it is proposed. It is in that spirit that the Bill is framed, and it is in that spirit that I ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

I felt after listening to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who moved the Amendment that it is rather a sham battle. It is not brought forward with the object of improving the Bill, but rather to score a party victory. He began his speech by stating that he had received instructions, or something of the sort, from the Labour people in Ireland, that they would not work the Bill. There happen to be two classes of Labour men in Ireland. There is a very large and well-organised class, and one of the finest classes in the world, in the North of Ireland, which is loyal and which, as a matter of fact, if it had its way, would not ask for this Bill at all The other class in the South is absolutely Sinn Fein and Republican, and, of course, they do not wish to have anything to do with Great Britain. The latest thing they have been up to is to propose to cut off all connection with trade union organisation in Great Britain, and I presume these are the people for whom the right hon. Gentle man speaks. So far as we in Ulster are concerned, we never wanted Rome Rule, and my right hon. Leader has said to-day that we are quite satisfied to remain under the Parliament of the United Kingdom. We feel that still, but we are asked as practical people whether we are going to accept this thing or not. As it is a choice between two evils, we certainly accept the two Parliaments rather than the one, for the obvious reason that we know what would happen under a Dublin Parliament. The President of the Board of Education pointed out the number of subjects on which the North and South do not agree. Take two of them, namely, education and temperance. We have been trying for many years to get our educational system brought up to the same standard as that of Great Britain, but why have we not been able to get it done? Because of the power of the Church of Rome, and that power w ill be exercised in the Dublin Parliament, and we should have absolutely no chance of getting the reform we want. While speaking, as I say, as one who is anxious to get rid of Rome Rule altogether, and feeling that it is absolutely bad, I must resist the Amendment.

I am sorry the First Lord has left the Chamber, because I should like to say how much I deprecate bitter speeches in the Rouse on a subject of this kind. I deprecate those speeches as much as he does himself, but I am sure he will concede to those of us who do not agree with this Clause the same right of judgment as he claimed for himself. In supporting the omission of this Clause, I do not do so in any hostile, but rather in a helpful spirit, because I understand His Majesty's Ministers are only too willing and anxious to receive suggestions of a helpful character in regard to this important Measure. It is my hope that even if this Clause were rejected, a better framework for the Bill could be constructed and a Measure introduced and passed which would be much more in the line of a final and satisfactory settlement in Ireland. This Clause proposes to create two Parliaments for Ireland, but there are many of us in this House who for a long time have believed that the only solution of the Irish Question lies in the creation of a single Parliament to legislate for the whole of Ireland. This Clause cuts right across that principle, and it is because I believe that in this Clause there are all the elements of future discord and division that I unhesitatingly support the Amendment to leave it out of the Bill. The hon. Member who last spoke said something about the religious difficulty in Ireland, and if we are to face facts we ought to admit at once that the whole question in Ireland is one of religion. It is a strange comment on Christian ethics that the opposing camps in Ireland to-day both observe in their propaganda so much bitterness and religious intolerance, which for rancour is, I believe, unequalled in any part of the world. It is my suggestion that the energies and legislative ability of this House should be directed towards removing that religious bitterness, if possible. I believe this Clause does not effect that end, but embodies an attempted settlement of this important question, not along liberal lines, but upon the lines of political expediency.

Let us make no mistake about the seriousness of the position. This Clause is the turning point of the whole Bill. It is the determining and fateful Clause, and if it is incorporated in the Measure, then, in my belief, we shall have crossed another Rubicon, on the other side of which are more serious political dangers than those through which we have passed. Instead of attempting to dispel religious bitterness, I believe we are stereotyping and petuating sectarian lines of demarcation, and we are also erecting around six counties in Ulster an arbitrary ringed fence for which there is neither moral right nor political justification. It is very unfortunate that we have no one here to speak with a representative voice from Southern Ireland, and it is a matter to me of profound regret that my hon. Friends, the remnant of the great Nationalist party, have considered it to be their duty to abstain from the discussion of this Bill in Committee. I believe their suggestions and criticisms would have been of real help, and their absence adds considerably to the unreality of the whole Debate. There are, however, Members here from Ulster, and I ask, is there a single Member who sits on the Ulster Bench of this Rouse who really believes that this Bill and this Clause will make for ultimate reunion in Ireland? Is there, indeed, a single Irishman in the Rouse, even including my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland, who voted for the Bill in the Division Lobby, who believes it? That is surely of great significance.

After listening to the Debate this afternoon, and considering the whole matter, it seems to me we are really, so far as Ireland is concerned, in a Gilbertian situation to-night; at least, it would be Gilbertian if it were not so tragic. We have been always so quixotic and paradoxical in our treatment of the Irish question. We have steadily refused for a generation, in the face of a constitutional demand by three-fourths of the Irish Members, an Irish Parliament, but now, when everyone is indifferent, when my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Duncairn Division is grudgingly acquiescent, we insist upon Ireland not having one Parliament but two Parliaments. I really think that the situation, as it exists in Ireland to-day, is not realised by the Government. It is my strong conviction that the creation of these two Parliaments embodies a principle of permanent partition in Ireland, to which the Southern Unionists, at least, are so strongly opposed. In spite of the shadowy and emasculated Council which the Government have inserted in the Bill, we propose by this Clause to set up two Parliaments with a separate administration, a separate executive, and a separate Judicature—all very expensive, but incidentally creating vested interests which may take generations to remove. With all the energy I possess, I urge the Government not to commit themselves to the fatal principle embodied in this Clause. I am not at liberty now to refer fully to some Amendment, which I have put down on the Paper for consideration at a later and proper stage, but instead of the two Parliaments that are to be set. up, I could have wished that the Government had considered the matter at greater length, and decided not to give those two Parliaments the powers they suggest in the Bill, but that they should have set up two Legislative Councils, one for the North and one for the South, and that there should have been an Irish Senate —a representative Irish Senate, if you like—which would have been the real Irish Parliament, and would have been the co-ordinating influence towards Irish unity.

Let me put one other point to the Government. We have recently appointed a new Irish Chief Secretary, and one whom we all wish whole-heartedly to support. Is is fair to impose this new policy of the two Parliaments upon the new Irish Secretary? We all desire to hold up his hand not only in maintaining law and order, but in order that he should bring peace and good government to Ireland. Why should the Government not leave him time to explore all the possible avenues of settlement and let him bring his own policy before the Cabinet for consideration later on? After all, we are imposing these Parliaments upon Ireland, and Ireland itself has not been consulted. The free electors neither of Southern nor of Northern Ireland have been consulted upon those two Legislatures, and it is surely a strange commentary upon democratic government if these are to be fastened upon them without any expressed will on their part. It seems to me that if this Clause remains unamended, it will have a disastrous effect upon the future government of Ireland. I have no doubt that a united Ireland under the new Irish Secretary is the aim of the new regime, but I believe that when this Clause is passed it will entrench the principle of permanent partition, and create vested interests which will dig themselves in for generations to come.

The Debate has covered a very wide range this afternoon, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dun-cairn made some pointed and almost truculent reference to America. Re said that we must consider this solely from the national point of view. I agree, but from the point of view of our Empire the subject of Ireland is one of the most important that we can consider. We should not forget that in America to-day there are millions of Irishmen who have left the home-land but who are holding important positions in the councils of that country. While I agree that we should deprecate any interference from any country whatever in our home and individual affairs, I think also, on the other hand, we should avoid any references which would interfere with the good relations between this country and America, who, acting together, could guarantee the future peace of the world.

It is one of the most striking comments upon the enthusiasm with which this Bill has been received by the House of Commons and by the country that here we have, on Clause 1, which contains the vital principle of the Bill, at 10 minutes to 9, exactly 31 Members of the Rouse of Commons listening to the Debate. We have three gentlemen representing the Government on the Treasury Bench, and no one at all on the Front Opposition Bench. It is not for me to comment upon the attendance of hon. Members of this House—

But I do think it is within my competence to remark that the Government can scarcely claim that they have any popular support for this Bill, or any real support in the Rouse of Commons, in view of the fact that the important Clause of the Bill of the season is treated in the House of Commons with silent contempt by the vast majority of the Members. The First Lord of the Admiralty, in his speech on the Clause—followed by the right hon. Gentleman who spoke from the Front Opposition Bench—said: "Prove to me, prophecy to me, how this Bill will not work—not function." It is perfectly easy to prophesy with absolute clearness what will happen when these two Parliaments are set up. Take the case of Ulster. Ulster is loyal to this country. Ulster consists of hardheaded business people. They tell us that they do not want Rome Rule to be set up in the north. They are perfectly contented as they are. But they say: "If you insist upon having this Rome Rule Bill, it is better, we think, than the Act of 1914, and we will endeavour to make it work." If the First Lord of the Admiralty is satisfied with that support of his Bill so far as the Northern Parliament is concerned, and of the hardheaded northerner, he is welcome to any consolation he can get.

Take the other case—that of Leinster, Munster, and Connaught—what is the position there? Only two things can possibly happen if this Bill comes into operation outside Ulster. The first is that the Sinn Fein party will, in order to safeguard their position, put forward candidates for the Parliament which is to assemble in Dublin, and, obviously, they will be elected. Anybody who knows anything about Ireland knows that at the approaching local elections, which are to take place almost at once, practically everybody who will be elected will be a Sinn Feiner, for the simple reason that anybody who stands in the old Nationalist interest, or still more in the Unionist interest, will be told that if he does not withdraw at once, he will be murdered. Re will have to withdraw. I can give scores of instances on this thing. I have particulars in my pocket. No one in Ireland, outside Ulster, may dare to attempt to stand in local elections, still less dare they put up for a Parliamentary election. That is what will happen. For the Southern Parliament Sinn Feiners will be elected, and what will they do? If they stick to their principles, which are quixotic and idealistic, they will refuse to assemble any Parliament in Dublin. There will be months of most glorious confusion, and then Parliament will have to repeal this Act, so far as that Parliament is concerned, and with great trouble, possibly bloodshed, and a great expenditure of money, will have to establish things anew. What, on the other hand, will happen? Here I see a terrible danger to this country.

Sinn Feiners are practical men. They will not only elect their Members, but assemble their Parliament. In spite of any paper restrictions against their doing anything unless they take the oath of allegiance, they will either take that oath and break it, or—far more likely—they will simply assemble in Dublin in the old Parliament Rouse, and at once proclaim a Republic, and absolute independence of this country. Is that a prospect which the Government are willing to face if this Clause is passed? Are they willing to face the strong probability that, by their own act, they will have set up a Parliament with—mark you—an executive responsible to it—which, if their public declarations are to be taken as their face value—and whatever you may think of Sinn Feiners, they have strong ideals, and many of them are men of great ability, great resource, and great powers of organisation—will at once proclaim a Republic! What is this country to do?

9.0 P.M.

There is only one thing that a great nation, a great Empire like ours, can do. We shall have to reconquer the country from the beginning. Any hon. Member can imagine what that means, what bloodshed, what loss of property, and what a terrible degradation for this country to face, a great country which has won the greatest War the world has ever seen—because this country won it, and no other! We should then have to reconquer the island which is only 60 miles from our shores. I hope even at this eleventh hour the Government will consider to what they are heading in continuing this Clause we are discussing, which is the pith and marrow of the Bill. To one like myself who has been brought up a Unionist, who has interests in Ireland, who is devoted to that country, and appreciates the amiable qualities of the Celt, his power of imagination, of blarney, his power of always telling you the thing you want to hear, it seems to me that the Government are fatally closing their eyes to the history of Ireland outside Ulster since 1914. In that year I and other Members—I as a humble member of the great Unionist party—voted against Home Rule, because we thought it bad for this country, and we thought it even worse for Ireland. We did all we could to support our friends in Ulster—which we did successfully—and against putting them under the heel of the disloyal people. I ask the Committee what has happened since 1914 to make what the majority of the people of this island thought bad in 1914, good in 1920? Have the bulk of the Irish people since 1914 shown any greater affection for this country? Rave they shown any greater affection for law and order? It is true that during the War—and all honour to them—scores of thousands of Nationalists, yes, nationalists, and unionists came across to this country to help in the Great War. They risked very much more than their lives, much more than Englishmen had risked, and that is the goodwill of their neighbours in Ireland, and their chance of livelihood in the future. The Clause sets up a Parliament for Leinster, Munster and Connaught. What is going to be the position of those men who fought for us? This country has heard with indignation from time to time of the terrible conditions under which ex-service men are now living in Ireland. They cannot get the land promised them; they cannot get employment because farmers dare not employ them lest they should be shot, and men who have come back on leave to their homes have been murdered simply because they wore the King's uniform. The country, too, has heard with indignation that they are not allowed to continue in Government employment. If that is the position at the present moment, what is going to be the position when this Rouse of Commons passes this Act and in eight months' time it gives them over to the power of the very people who say that they will have a Republic and will have nothing to do with England or with anybody who helps England. I wonder if the Government when they framed this Bill had in their mind all these considerations. They are now at the eleventh hour endeavouring to restore some semblance of law and order in Ireland. I will not trouble this Committee with a recital of the terrible conditions which obtain there.

We cannot here discuss questions affecting the general administration of the Government in Ireland.

May I make the point that if this Clause is passed setting up a Parliament in Dublin for Southern Ireland, and if it comes into operation eight months from the date of the Royal assent, it must discourage those who are now responsible for carrying out the law in Ireland, the police, the officials and the loyalist inhabitants. I quite under- stand I must not go into details, but I wish in one sentence to put the point, that you cannot expect the police and the officials and the law-abiding inhabitants to put their backs into the task of restoring law and order in Ireland if, at the same time we in this Rouse of Commons are passing a Bill that within a certain period will hand them over to the very people whom they are endeavouring to prevent breaking the law. I shall most certainly vote against this Clause, which embodies the very essence of the Bill, a measure which will not bring peace to Ireland.

We have lately read in the newspapers, accounts of the beatification of Joan of Arc. To-day I have listened to a Debate which has meant the sanctification of the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson), for all the Ministers sitting on the Treasury Bench have paid compliments to the speeches he has delivered to-day. Why? Because he has blessed the Government for giving him what he wanted. Rome Rule for Ireland was all wrong so long as Ireland was the basis for the Rome Rule Bill. Then they swore by all their gods that Rome Rule should not be accepted even at the expense of throwing the King's Crown into the Boyne. They organised rebellion. The hon. and gallant Member who has just spoken reminded us of the fact that the trouble began in 1914. I will suggest that it began in 1913.

Yes, and further back than that. We could go back to the days when rebellion first began in Ireland as a consequence of "planting," but we do not want to refer to that now. The principle of this Clause is the division of Ireland into two parts, not on the basis of nationality, not on the basis of geography, but simply and solely on the basis of religious antagonism. That is the basis of this Clause. These six counties are to constitute Ulster, and they are not to have the three counties as part of the ancient province of Ulster.

No doubt he can see through dark glasses, but, so far as our knowledge geographically of Ireland is concerned, the province of Ulster consists of nine counties. Why are the three counties to be cut out? Simply because they would reduce the ascendency of the Protestants. They would reduce the ascendency of those who have dominated Ireland for nearly 700 years. These people decline to have their ascendency upset, and, consequently, this Bill is only accepted as a compromise. They go to their friends and colleagues in the South of Ireland, and they say, however, "We have not voluntarily accepted this Bill; we have not agreed to the partition off. Ireland or of Ulster, and we will do our best for you under the Bill; but we are content, because we have got the six counties." Then they go on to say, "We have got all we want, so far as our position is concerned, and you must do the best you can for yourselves." That is the only principle contained in their support of this Bill.

May I remind the Committee that the religious difficulty has been to a large extent made too much of in this Debate, because the trade union movement in Ireland is developing, not on religious grounds, not as regards Orangemen and Roman Catholics, but men of all sects and all parties are members of the same organisation, and act together in the local elections wherever they can. The old religious antagonisms are being broken down, and those who belong to the Labour movement in this country, those who are identified with the working-class movement in districts where Irishmen form a considerable portion of the industrial population, are absolutely opposed to this Bill, which simply legalises religious antagonisms and tries to divide Ireland into two parties, one Roman Catholic and the other Protestant. We, the Labour party in this country, are opposed to that position. There is talk about partition. Would partition be a justifiable principle in national politics? Would anybody suggest that some part of Great Britain should be cut off from the rest of the country merely because the people of the district held strong and bitter opinions as opposed to other sections? Take, for instance, an industrial district in South Wales. Would it be agreed that because certain people expressed themselves as Syndicalists, or Bolsheviks, or Anarchists and elected a certain number of Members to this House, whose expressed opinion the great majority of the Members of the House did not believe in—would anyone suggest that those people should have preferential treatment, and be allowed to have a Parliament of their own? The idea has only to be put forward to be immediately rejected by all those who are responsible as representatives of the people. Yet in this Bill we have the principle laid down that until Irishmen absolutely agree, North and South, East and West, and are prepared to accept one particuluar form of government, the minorities in each particular district and in every section have got to be recognised with parliaments of their own.

Have the people of North-East Ulster, the north-east corner, special rights and privileges against the rest of the people of Ireland? We have heard a great deal about their brains—I have not seen any great evidence from any of the representatives that they have sent to this House yet. They have told us that the prosperity of Belfast has been built up to a great extent by their ingenuity and initiative, their capitalists and their workers who are natives of Ulster; but one of the principle builders of the prosperity of Belfast belonged to the people we have lately been fighting against—a German. Because he had to pay high wages in England he went to Ireland, where he could get cheaper labour, and on this cheaper labour he built up a great industrial concern. Now we are told that was Irish initiative. I suppose the brains came from the same place as the guns came from in the celebrated threatened rebellion. So far as we of the Labour party are concerned, we are against this partition of Ireland. We deplore as much as anyone—none of us more than those who are natives of Ireland—what is now going on; men being killed in cold blood, murders being committed, but it is not to be put into the ordinary class of individual criminality, it is the result of a system of government which has killed the hopes of the people and driven them into a condition of desperation. Previously to 1913, and even up to 1916, there was a great constitutional movement in Ireland. The people were prepared to accept a Home Rule Bill—the great mass of them. Although it fell short of their ideals, yet they hoped that if they could get the principle accepted they would prove themselves capable of a greater extension a liberty. What has happened since that time? "Hope deferred maketh the heart sick." The people of Ireland have got tired and sick of constitutionalism The people who preached violence have scored every time against the people who preached political and democratic action.

We object to partition, we object to the setting up of two Parliaments in Ireland; we claim that there should be only one and, given the ability and brains which is claimed on the other side, which is calling for special treatment, and if these were exercised in the interests of Ireland, apart from political and religious prejudices, I believe that one Parliament in Ireland could be made successful. We of the Labour party believe that there ought to be one Parliament and such machinery established as would give a Constitutional Assembly power to declare what particular form of Government should be set up for Ireland. I know something about the position, and I believe that if a free vote of the people of Ireland could be taken, if the people had a free opportunity of expressing themselves, there would be found to be a majority in favour of constitutional action and in favour of a really democratic Parliament being set up in Ireland. Until this is done there can be no hope or prospect of progress or prosperity in Ireland. It may be said that America has nothing to do with our internal affairs. That seems to me most extraordinary, because whatever we do here will have a great influence upon international politics. We cannot get up in this House and talk about the rights of other nations and find fault with the action of other governments while we have to bear the brunt of our own action in this country. I suggest that if this principle of partition is going to be carried, if two Parliaments in Ireland are going to be established, you will have confusion worse confounded. For that reason I hope the Clause will be rejected. The Labour party in Great Britain is opposed to any action which is going to divide the people of one nation into two hostile factions.

I greatly regret the announcement which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes) that he proposes to take no further interest in the Bills. I am sorry that the Committee will be deprived of the advantage of his able assistance upon this Bill. I find myself in considerable agreement with what was said by him and by the last speaker. The Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Wallace) and myself have ventured to put before the Committee a scheme in the form of Amendments which unfortunately stand or fall with this particular Clause, and as this Clause seems likely to be carried, that scheme, I am afraid, falls to the ground. With regard to this Clause, it appears to set up in an entirely unnecessary form the permanent partition of Ireland. It creates two entirely complete and independent legislative machines. What we ventured to suggest was that we would accept two Legislative Councils and unite them by a single Senate. That Senate would be representative of the whole of Ireland and its full assent would have been necessary to any measure which emanated from the Northern or Southern Parliaments. The Government has now proceeded upon entirely different lines. In this Clause they have set up two Parliaments and around them there will grow those strong vested interests which always fight strenuously against anything which threatens their existence. What is it that now threatens the existence of these vested interests in Ireland? The Union of Ireland will be a foe to the vested interests. Our proposal was to balance from the first these vested interests and to create a unifying link in the Irish legislative system, one Chamber which would be common to both—North and South, and an inherent and indispensable part of both Legislatures as well as a unifying link between them. Such a body, from the very beginning, would have been representative of the whole of Ireland—it would legislate for the whole of Ireland and would apply to every proposal which emanated either from the North or the South, that wider view, which is entirely absent from this Bill, of the interests of Ireland, as a whole. I am sure that both the hon. Member for Dunfermline and myself, and, indeed, all of us, to whatever party we belong, wish success to the Parliaments which this Clause sets up. We cannot, however, help thinking how much greater would have been the chance of success had the Government not seen fit to set at defiance that yearning of the vast majority of the Irish people, generation after generation, for the eventual unity of the Irish race.

I should not have risen to take any part in this evening's discussion had it not been for the studiously offensive tone of the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. J. Jones). More times than one he has posed before this House as specially qualified to speak on Irish questions, and he has told us more than once that he speaks as an Irishman. I will tell you what kind of an Irishman he is. He told the House himself, on a former occasion, that he left Ireland a barefaced lad; and he went on to add that his face was not the only part of his anatomy that was bare. That physical nudity is to be deplored, but it can be no kind of justification for the intellectual, indecent exposure which he has manifested to this House this evening. For combined insolence and ignorance, the speech he has just delivered far exceeds anything he has said before. He seems to have imagined that the kind of address to which he treats this House from time to time can go on without any kind of protest. I do not suppose that any reproof of mine would change his demeanour; he is too completely hidebound for any suggestion in this House to penetrate him. He complained that my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) had, as he called it, received a sanctification at the hands of the Treasury Bench. I do not desire to compete with him in the use of ecclesiastical terms, but he said that my right hon. Friend had got all he wanted; and the proof of that was to be found, of course, in the fact that he supports an Amendment and goes into the Division Lobby against the Government this afternoon. That is the kind of logic that comes from the Labour Benches. It is typical of the cobwebby condition of the mind from which the observation came.

He said we are getting ascendency, and that that is why we are out for partition. What sort of ascendency have we? We have no ascendency to-day, and, little as he knows about Ireland, I defy him to point to any instance of our ascendency. We seek no ascendency, and we stand in this case for a six-county Parliament because we will tolerate no ascendency. We have asked only to stay with you, to have the same flag flying over us that floats over you, the same laws operating, the same Parliament governing. If that is ascendency, it is your ascendency and not ours. He tells us that the trade union movement is not developing on religious lines. If there is any question on which he might be supposed to know something, it is the trade union movement, in which he has been an organiser for, I think, something like twenty-five years. I will show him that he is as grossly ignorant on this as on so many other questions. Sinn Fein has made itself perfectly plain upon the Labour question. It has issued a pamphlet, which I do not suppose he has even seen, entitled "Sinn Fein and the Labour Movement." I would ask him in a moment of reason—if there be such a moment—to take it home with him and ponder over it, and come back to the House and tell us that the trade union movement in Ireland in some aspects is not run on religious lines. On page 19 of that pamphlet it is stated that

On a point of Order. Is not that just about as relevant and reasoning as the average middle-class appeal to trade unions about which they know nothing?

I did not expect anything else from the high priest of the commonplace on that bench. To go on with my quotation—

"They ought to trust not to the British democracy, but to substitute for amalgamation with English unions a confederation of all Irish labour."

While a leading Irish priest is said to have declared:

The hon. Member says it proves that there was no religious development on trade union lines, but it is the very negation of that.

On a point of Order. I pointed out, and I ought to know, that there is no religious basis of membership in any trade union, in Ireland or any other country.

It was written by a Sinn Feiner. The hon. Member says that, until all Ireland agrees, minorities must suffer, and he thinks that is a sound point. I would ask him to consider this one. Is the whole Unionists minority to suffer in perpetuity by being coerced into an all Ireland Parliament? Minorities are to have no rights; a majority, however procured, is inevitably right: that is the argument. I do not understand the position of the Labour party in this matter. The leader of it for the moment —one of several who sit upon that Bench from time to time as leaders—acts the part of Pontius Pilate and washes his hands of all connected with this Bill; and the moment that he clears out of the Committee the hon. Member for Silver-town proceeds to immerse himself in the whole discussion. I do not know what kind of discipline there is in the party; I do not know whether it is the tail that wags the dog or the dog that wags the tail, but at any rate they appear to pay no attention whatever to the settled policy of their Leader for the time being. The hon. Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Wallace) put forward one or two very novel and startling theories. He said the only solution was one Parliament, and he went on to explain to the Committee that he did not believe in his own theory because he had put down a series of Amendments which provided that there should be two Councils and one Senate. That is his conception of one Parliament. It is really difficult to pursue fantastic theories of this kind further. The whole of the criticism that has come from the Opposition in this matter is animated by one principle and has one origin. The Nationalist party is not here, but those hon. Members who are here are acting the part of jackal to the Nationalist lion. The speech by the hon. Member for Dunfermline is similar to the statements I have read over and over again in the Nationalist Press. Hon Members have been merely playing the part of the sixpenny gramophone to some operatic party.

If I desired to pursue this, there is a certain type of bird that I might properly compare with my hon. Friend, but I leave it to his imagination. He is sufficiently versatile to think of the particular bird to which I could liken him, and it is not a bird of very pleasing plumage. [HON. MEMBERS: "A cuckoo!"] That would be an insult to the cuckoo. The fact is the Government find themselves in very difficult circumstances. They have done their best, and its best is a poor best; but let some of their critics try and do better.

I would like to remind the Committee that if partition in Ireland is necessary the Ulster Unionist party are in no sense responsible for it. It has been suggested that the Bill has been introduced in deference to the wishes of the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn, but he has already always maintained the attitude that we would rather remain as we were than accept the principle of any Bill. To that we as a party all subscribe. I do hate to go into this question of religious bigotry, or anything suggestive of it; but we as a party cannot stand charged with that, because clerical influence has done more to formulate our opinions and to accentuate our desires with respect to the future government of Ireland than anything else I am aware of. The late Mr. Redmond said in this House that if Home Rule where conceded to Ireland he could warrant that the clergy would stand aside and allow the legitimate representatives of the people to conduct the Government of the country. Just about that time, however, Archbishop Walsh came along and said that that does not accord with his experience. He said:

"In Ireland the line between religion and politics is by no means so easy to draw. I have some experience now in critically observing such matters, and I have never known that feat to be accomplished with perfect success."

This simply means that no matter how the Government is arranged clerical domination is sure to prevail, and it is that, as Ulster Unionists, that we are out to resist. It is not because it happens to be Catholic domination, for we would resist Protestant domination in precisely the same way. I have no quarrel with my Catholic neighbours; I know hundreds of them, of whose acquaintance I am proud; but I am not going to submit to religious domination at the hands of the Catholic hierarchy any more than I would at the hands of my own Church. I want the Committee to be aware of this, and to know that this bigotry has not proceeded from Ulster. Only five or six days later, Archbishop Walsh said:

"As priests, and independent of all human organisations, they have an inalienable right to guide their people in this momentous proceeding, as in every other proceeding where the interests of Catholicity as well as the interests of Irish nationality are involved."

Here is the attitude that we know we should be up against if we were under the domination of a government of one central form in Ireland. That is what we are out to resist. Educated as we have been in this sort of doctrine, is it any wonder that we take up the attitude we do? This has not been confined to the clergy. Allow me to quote a portion of an article that appeared in the "Freeman's Journal" on the 18th of Februray, 1886. [ Laughter. ] Yes, but ever since then the same doctrine has been promulgated and preached throughout Ireland. I merely refer to this particular article because it is only one—

It is on the question of partition, and my connection with the Clause is this, that the claim for partition is a necessity.

We understand by that that we must agree with their domination. [AN HON. MEMBER: "What did Mrs. Murphy say?"] I would ask hon. Members opposite to give us their attention in the same way and with the same tolerant attitude as we listened to them. The article proceeds:

I should not have intervened but for the speeches of the two hon. Members who preceded me. They take exception to the Labour party deciding to take no further part in this discussion.

No. What I objected to was the Labour party declaring that they intended to take no further part and then continuing to take part.

What my right hon. Friend (Mr. Clynes) said was that after this Clause was discussed and debated, and if the Labour party's Amendment were defeated, the Labour party would take no further part in the Debates on the Bill. That is quite a different thing from trying to make it appear that my right hon. Friend said that after he had spoken no other member of the Labour party would be entitled to take part. If the matter had gone immediately to a Division, no one would have taken part, but when hon. Members on the other side take part in the Debate on this Clause it is only right and proper that Labour Members should give voice to their ideas. I am rather surprised at the element that is brought into the Debate on this Clause. I can remember the heat and passion which were displayed in previous Debates on Irish questions which I have read. Hon. Members have tried to drag in some of that heat, but there has not been by any means so stifling an atmosphere as there must have been during previous Irish Debates. To rake up as an argument in favour of partition a quotation from a newspaper 34 years old as bearing upon the events of to-day is to my mind stretching argument rather far into the past. Conditions have changed considerably since that passage that the hon. Member read was penned. [HON. MEMBERS: "For the worse!"] If they have changed for the worse, it is not because of this House of Commons, it is not because of Ulster or because of the Roman Catholic people. It is because Governments have taken up this question of self-government for Ireland as a pure question of political advantage in this country, to toy and play with the electorate and to get themselves into power and position. They were not concerned with the freedom of the people of Ireland, but with their seats on the Treasury Bench. The Labour party wish to lift this Irish question out of that political atmosphere, and to try to reach, if it is at all possible, a platform upon which the Ulster Protestant can meet the Southern Catholic and shake hands and work unitedly for the building up of a great and glorious Ireland. We want all the factions and the feuds of the past to die out. We would rather see the whole of the Irish people, north and south, working together as one people and not as two separate peoples. That is the reason why we oppose this attempt on the part of the Government to partition Ireland.

The hon. Member (Mr. Moles) tried to score a point over my hon. Friend (Mr. J. Jones) by quoting the trade unions of Ireland. He pointed out how, according to a pamphlet he was reading from, they desired to have Irish trade unions, and he asked my hon. Friend if that was not partition. That is not the partition against which my hon. Friend protested. He did not protest against an all-Ireland trade union. He did not protest against the desire of the Irishmen in the trade union movement to have the control of their own movement. What he protested against was the division of Ireland into two separate Parliaments, and I am certain he would protest just as strongly against any attempt which might be made either by Northern or by Southern Irishmen to divide the trade union into two separate unions, one existing solely for the North and the other for the South. It is the partition of Ireland that he protested against, and not, as the hon. Member (Mr. Moles) tried to make out, an all-Ireland trade union. We are again reminded that the Ulster men are not desirous of ascendancy. One hon. Member, to his credit be it said, spoke with pride of Catholics whom he numbered among his friends. We hope every Ulster representative numbers among his friends men who differ from him in religious views, but to put that forward as an argument, as he did, that the Irish Roman Catholic Church wished to be the ascendant party, and that they had no desire to have ascendancy, is to claim that every Irishman who does not belong to the Protestant Church, and who is not an Orangeman, and every Irishman who belongs to the Roman Catholic Church is out for ascendancy over the Protestants of Ireland. Why cannot hon. Members allow to the Catholics in Ireland at least the same tolerance that they claim, that they are not desirous of having ascendancy over the southern part of Ireland? Why cannot they extend that same tolerance and breadth of mind to the Irishmen who are outside Ulster? Why cannot hon. Members admit that an Ulsterman may be animated with the same desire, and that he should also wish no ascendency over the north of Ireland. If you claim that as a virtue for yourself it is surely not monopolised by Ulstermen. It is because the Labour party believe that the Irish people should have the right to govern themselves, not as two separate nations but as one nation, that we are opposed to Clause 1, which seeks to divide Ireland into two sections, and it is because of that policy that we intend to take the matter to a division. Let me repeat what the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Platting (Mr. Clynes), has already told the House, that if the rejection of this Clause is defeated we shall know in the House, and the labour movement and the people of this country will know, that once again the Government of this country has placed in political power men who desire to retain their power on the Treasury Bench against the desires of the people to have Ireland placed upon a stable footing.

When questions come before us affecting the well-being of the British people the Home Rule question has always been the predominant question at past elections. We desire this question to be removed from the field of British politics, and that Ireland at the least shall have the right to govern itself. We want Ireland one and undivided, Ireland without partition, to have the right to say that Ireland shall govern itself with its one Parliament according to the wishes and desires of all the Irish people, and not to be made the sport of politicians who place more reliance upon their position in the Government than they do on the welfare of the sister isle.

I only want to ask one question. We have been told by the hon. Member who has just sat down that the Labour party in this country will only give their acquiescence to a Bill for Ireland which will give one Parliament to the whole of Ireland. We were told the same thing by the hon. Member for Silvertown (Mr. Jones). We want to know whether they are out for the coercion of Ulster or not? I know from my own experience of the working classes that, taken as a whole, they would not tolerate the coercion of Ulster on any account, and therefore it is futile for the hon. Member for Silver-town and others to tell us that the workers of this country are out for the coercion of Ulster.

On a point of Order. May I say that I do not think that any sentence in the speech I have just made—

I want an answer "Yes" or "No" to the question: Are the Labour party out for the coercion of Ulster or not? Having got no reply to that question, I take it that they are out for the coercion of Ulster.

I am asked if the Labour party are out for the coercion of Ulster. We are out in the interests of the Irish people—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."]—I think I am entitled to answer the question in my own way. The Labour party does not desire to coerce either section in Ireland—North or South. We are prepared, as we have stated on platforms outside this House and inside this House, to place the whole Irish question before a plebiscite of the Irish people, and let the Irish people settle for themselves what they desire afterwards. By that method the Government would be carrying out their War pledge that they were out for self-determination.

I only desire to make one observation on what has just been said by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. N. Maclean). He would not tell us whether he was out for the coercion of Ulster or not, but he said he was out for placing in the hands of the Irish people the determination of what Government they wish to live under. May I ask him whether he had not that opportunity at the last election and what was the result? The result was that some 75 per cent. of them said they wanted an independent Republic and the other 25 per cent. were against an independent Republic. What is his judgment between them?

I am somewhat diffident to intervene in this Debate, and I should not have done so but for the speech made by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. N. Maclean). With the utmost deference to the moving speech which the hon. Member made, I wish to say that I certainly could not vote with him against the principle of partition. In regard to what he has said, let me submit these two considerations. I think what he has said amounts practically to this—that it is very deplorable that the Irish people should be fundamentally divided, beginning in a religious quarrel, and now extending over many matters which have very little to do with religion and they take very different views about all sorts of things, and the hon. Member protests against that. We all regret that there should be either in Ireland or anywhere else violent antagonism of this kind, and nothing is more mischevious, but to protest against it is like protesting against the battle of the Boyne, because it is a fact in history.

10.0 P.M.

Historians may differ as to whether the blame lies with the Protestants of the North or the Catholics of the South, but that there is this deep antagonism going far beyond religious or theological considerations is perfectly obvious. No one can view the present antagonism between the Irish Protestants and the Roman Catholics as a mere theological difference, and you have to accept it as a fact. You have two bodies of people who, so far from being one nation in any rational sense of the word, and who so far from being drawn together by that mutual affection which makes them prefer one another to all other people, are profoundly divided. How are you to unite, by a purely political process, these two very diverse bodies of opinion in what purports to be a national organisation, which has none of the characteristics of a. national organisation, and which has none of the natural characteristics of mutual affection and mutual preference. You cannot de- fend any such arrangement as that. This Clause, so far as it expresses partition, I confess that I do not like it, and I do not see what is going to become of it. I do hope, before we go to a Division, the Government will explain to us what they will do in administering this Clause in contingencies which are not only possible, but are almost certain. At an early stage of our discussions, the right hon. Member for Duncairn asked the Government what they would do if, as everybody anticipates, the Members of the Southern Parliament refuse to cooperate in the work of Government. If they refuse to support the Government in administering the country, what are you going to do? Are you going to set up by military force a Government without Parliamentary support, or a Government with a hostile Parliament? The Leader of the House thinks that the Northern Parliament is going to be so reasonable that its good behaviour will gradually spread to the Southern Parliament—a delightful view of human nature, but one not justified by human nature, even when more favourably exhibited than it has been in Ireland recently. Accepting the optimistic theory that the good behaviour of the north will gradually convert the ill-behaviour of the south, that is not the theory put forward by the Government as to how this Clause is going to work out. Suppose that the Southern Parliament set up by this Clause consist entirely of Sinn Feiners as it probably will, and suppose that they declare entirely for an Irish Republic at their first meeting. All the signs go to show that they certainly will not themselves serve in a Government, and they will not allow any other Government to act. If you are to have a Parliament working the Government must be responsible to it as it is in every similar case. If the members of the Southern Parliament are Sinn Feiners and refuse to serve in a Government themselves and refuse to allow any other Government, what is the Imperial Government going to do? What steps is it going to take to administer Ireland in such conditions? The Leader of the House has said nothing to discourage the belief that the Irish in the Southern Parliament would behave in a most unreasonable manner. All his language seems to anticipate that they will. It is not reasonable to ask us to vote for this Clause until we know what is going to happen if the Clause ends, as every person who is not drunk with optimism must suppose it will end. Therefore, before we divide I hope that the Government will tell us quite frankly what they intend to do. Are we to go back to government under the Union or are we to resort to an invasion of Ireland, sending troops in after the manner of Cromwell to suppress the Southern Parliament? We heard this afternoon that the Government had not thought about Second Chambers until the matter was suggested by my hon Friend. If they wish to consider this, I am sure that the Committee will be delighted to give time for the consideration if they move to report Progress. I should be very sorry to take any responsibility for this Clause, and if any hon. Member challenges a Division I shall certainly vote against it.

By their silence the Government have confessed that they have no plans for dealing with the situation outlined with such great truth by my Noble Friend. The only part of his speech which filled me with anxiety was when he paused to consider whether he ought to vote against the Clause. I sincerely hope that he will accompany me into the Lobby against the Clause. His speech has shown that whatever else the Clause may do, it will not bring peace and contentment to Ireland. I cannot conceive why we should sacrifice our principles in order to do no good. As far as I know, the object of the Bill is to satisfy Ireland. This is the third Irish Home Rule Bill I have seen. I was in this House in the year 1893 when the second Home Rule Bill was introduced by Mr. Gladstone, then leading the House of Commons. That Bill had some force behind it, because on the Benches opposite was the serried phalanx of Irishmen in favour of the Bill. Now the serried phalanx of Irishmen is conspicuous by its absence. At no time while this Bill has been discussed has there been a single Irishman in favour of it. There have been many who are against it, and a certain number of hon. Members below me who do not like it, but are prepared to take it for fear that something worse might befall them. I want to know what on earth is the good of voting for this Clause. Outrages have increased in Ireland during the last few weeks, and the longer the Bill goes on the greater the number of murders. That is not a thing which would cause us to vote with very much pleasure for the Bill. We are told that Second Chambers are to be introduced, and the First Lord, in making the announcement, said that it would be a great change in the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ilkeston (Major-General Seely) informed us that he was in favour of the Second Chamber proposal, but that it ought not to be done in the manner proposed. I think there was some little difference between him and the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) as to what was in the Bill of 1912. That Bill has not been a very great success.

With regard to the establishment of two Second Chambers in Ireland, it must not be forgotten that there was a settlement which "brooked no delay" with regard to one Second Chamber in the United Kingdom. That has taken about 10 years, and we have not arrived at a settlement yet. As this proposal with regard to Ireland and two Second Chambers is going to make a very great alteration in the Bill, why not withdraw the Bill, in which we have not gone very ear and bring in a Bill which does provide for two Second Chambers in Ireland? Before we go to a Division, I do think my Noble Friend requires an answer, that is, if there is an answer to give him. I can hardly see how it is possible for the Government, in view of the state of affairs which exists in Ireland at present to refuse to answer the very reasonable request which has been made by my Noble Friend. I do not think they will succeed in drawing him into their lobby, and I hope not. At any rate, we might be given the opportunity of knowing what is the plan of the Government should the Sinn Feiners insist, as I understand they do to-day, in refusing to accept any Government which does not establish a Republic in Ireland. I do not know whether I have been correctly informed, but I have been told that it has been publicly said in Ireland that the Irish people do not want the new Chief Secretary or his policy of conciliation, and that all they want is an Irish Republic, and that they intend to have it. Under those circumstances it would be wiser to send someone who would not attempt a policy of conciliation, but would say straight out, "We intend to govern the country, and we intend to put a stop to these outrages," and the first thing to put a stop to them would be to withdraw this Bill.

I really do ask my right hon. Friend whether he will not help us in this matter which is not, as I know he thinks, mere factious opposition. It is not that, but I assure him that many people in the country are in profound anxiety as to what is going to happen as the result of the establishment of these Parliaments. We do wish to be assured, and it is not I think an unreasonable request, that the Government have thought out a policy for dealing with the situation which must arise, as we think, the moment you have established these Parliaments. It is not really a question of speculation. The Southern Parliament would be manned wholly by Sinn Fein Members. My hon. and right hon. Friends from Ulster and every Irish Nationalist with whom I have spoken are all agreed that that is going to be the result of an election for the Southern Parliament. What must happen? The Southern Parliament will meet, the oath of allegiance will be tendered, and it will be refused. What is going to happen? Are you going to send troops to turn the Southern Parliament out of the Parliament House? Are you going to send troops by the authority of this Parliament, when this Parliament has solmenly declared that it ought not to rule Ireland? That is a position of very serious gravity, and it may be that that is all foreseen by the Government; but surely we ought to know before we vote for this Clause to establish the Southern Parliament. Suppose, on the other hand, they do take the oath of allegiance—I imagine with reservations, because their whole theory is that they owe no allegiance to the Crown—and that they establish a Sinn Fein Government, which thereupon says, "We will not have any troops here; we will not have any of the Royal Irish Constabulary; we will authorise the raising of volunteer troops all over Ireland; we will do everything we like." How are you going to enforce the law in defiance of an Executive and a Parliament which you yourselves have created? Surely this is a tremendously serious problem. I do not know—there may be some answer which I do not perceive, but we ought to be told what the answer is before we assent to a proposal of this kind.

It is not as if this had been accepted in Ireland; there is no chance of it being accepted, and surely my right hon. Friend must realise that, in asking the Government what their policy is in such a matter, we are not exceeding the rights of Members of the House of Commons. After all, this is the Parliament, the place where we are entitled to put questions to the Government, and before we give them further powers or further legislation we are entitled to an answer. I thought all Governments were ready to answer reasonable inquiries and to meet reasonable objections. Is not this a reasonable inquiry; is not this a reasonable objection? I should have thought it a perfectly reasonable inquiry, a perfectly reasonable objection. Surely we are not going absolutely to stultify ourselves by voting for this Clause without a single idea of what is the Government's plan. My hon. and gallant Friend (Sir P. Lloyd-Greame), in a moment of excitement perhaps, said he would always support the Government against my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury)

If they were the two alternatives, I thought I was safe in making that assertion.

I would make an exception where the hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London was putting forward a strictly constitutional demand, which really goes to the root of Parliamentary institutions. After all, this is not a matter to be disposed of lightly, and I do ask my right hon. Friend to treat it as a matter which really goes to the very root of Parliamentary institutions.

My Noble Friend, the Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) made no disguise of the claim that he is utterly opposed to the Bill, and he thinks it a good opportunity to make it appear ridiculous and do his best to prevent it going through. I have listened to the last three speeches with a good deal of interest, although I think they were very familiar to me. My Noble Friend below the Gangway (Lord H. Cecil) would not deny that the Southern Parliament might be unreasonable. I will not deny that proposition, but I will venture to say that, however unreasonable it may be, it will not be so unreasonable as my Noble Friend, who says that at the beginning of the Bill we should state every Amendment we are prepared to accept up to the end. As regards my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), his methods are so familiar, even to this Rouse of Commons, that I do not think I need dilate on them. But if my right hon. Friend thinks I have any animosity against him, or anything of that kind, he is entirely mistaken, for over and over again, when we have been in a tight place, I have been exceedingly grateful to my right hon. Friend, because I have always realised that, once he has made a speech against the Government, we are certain of a handsome majority. It is quite true that the issue of this Debate is very serious, but I assume that those who have taken part in it did listen to the earlier Debate. On the Second Reading I pointed out quite frankly, with the full approval of my colleagues, that the situation might arise when this Bill would not be accepted by a Southern Parliament. I said that was a contingency the Government must guard against. At the worst what will happen will be that we shall be in no worse position, I hope—I do not see why we should—than at this moment. At the worst I am not so devoid of hope as those of my hon. Friends who dislike the whole Bill, and would like us to drop it, and when they put forward that plea they seem always to forget that there is a Rome Rule Act on the Statute Book. Therefore, when they make that proposal, it is not enough to make it, but they should tell us what they would do to deal with the situation. We have said that, before we ask the Rouse of Commons to part with this Bill, which will naturally come at a very much later stage, we will put in a Clause making it perfectly clear that, unless a legislative body in the South of Ireland is prepared to work this Bill, we will revert to the present position.

The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Rouse will understand that it was with a certain amount of grim amusement that I listened to the speeches that evidenced an amount of disagreement with his leadership; and if he will accept my sympathy I shall be glad to offer it. Hon. Members asked for a declaration of policy on the part of the Government. Since the historic instance of Mother Hubbard there has been nothing quite to equal that. The reason the Government do not declare their policy is because they have not one. [AN HON. MEMBER: "What policy have you?"] We have a Bill on the Statute Book. We think that that Bill with some Amendments—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] —Certainly that is a policy—that is the policy in regard to Ireland of the Liberal party. [HON. MEMBERS: "Which one?"] The party to which I belong. What is the position in which we now find ourselves? The Government has now undertaken to provide a Senate, two Houses of Commons in Ireland with, I presume, a Supreme Council, and this is in the name of unity! There will be four Speakers, four Chairmen of Ways and Means, four Sergeants-at-Arms, and the whole panoply of interest which must develop under such bodies as these. Unity! What chance is there of unity under circumstances of that kind? The only chance of unity came into this Bill in an earlier Amendment. Now we are driven to this fantastic proposal. The whole thing would have a touch of high comedy if it were not tragedy. Here is an attempt to settle the Irish problem, and Ireland is to-day really in the throes of a position which is worse than even the worst past to which we addressed ourselves with the utmost seriousness. I was right in requiring of the Government when they light-heartedly accepted the position in which the Committee now finds itself, some suggestion, at any rate, of the policy by which they might meet the new conditions of things which might arise. We have not had it, and cannot have it, because there is no unity of purpose in the Government in dealing with this Irish question.

The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide, divide!"]—in the reply which he has just given, said that if this Clause were passed we should not be in a worse position than we are at present, and that he was prepared, at a later part of the Bill, to put in safeguards against the contingency of the Southern Parliament proclaiming a Republic. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman of what possible use can any paper safeguards be in resisting the declaration of an Irish Republic by the elected Parliament, and an Executive responsible to it? In this Clause we are setting up in Leinster, Munster, and Connaught a Parliament popularly elected on a proportional basis on the widest franchise, which will have the power to do what it wishes. What possible safeguard can there be? You say that this Bill shall not function unless they take the oath of allegiance, or carry out the provisions of the measure. Suppose they do not and appoint their own Executive. Is the right hon. Gentleman going to order a battalion of the Guards to march into the Parliament House at Dublin and turn out the elected representatives and their Executives? This Clause may be right or it may be wrong, but no paper safeguards will be of the slightest value if this Bill becomes an Act here, unless we use force, part with all authority over the Acts of the Southern Parliament, and give up all power of maintaining law in Ireland.

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 213; Noes, 61.

Division No. 121.]

AYES.

[10.33 p.m.

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Doyle, N. Grattan

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Burdon. Colonel Rowland

Du Pre, Colonel William Baring

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

Edge, Captain William

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Atkey, A. R.

Butcher, Sir John George

Elliot, Capt. Walter E (Lanark)

Baird, John Lawrence

Campbell, J. D. G.

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Baldwin, Stanley

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Falcon, Captain Michael

Barnett, Major R. W.

Carr, W. Theodore

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Barnston, Major Harry

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Barrie, Charles Coupar

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Foreman, Henry

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Casey, T. W.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

Forrest, Walter

Benn, Com. Ian H. (Greenwich)

Chadwick, R. Burton

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Bennett, Thomas Jewell

Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Betterton, Henry B.

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Bigland, Alfred

Cockerill, Lieut.-Colonel G. K.

Gardiner, James

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

Calvin, Lieut.-Colonel Richard Beale

Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A.

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Borwick, Major G. 0.

Cope, Major Wm.

Green, Albert (Derby)

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Cowan, Sir W. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Breese, Major Charles E.

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Gregory, Holman

Bridgeman, William Clive

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Greig, Colonel James William

Brittain, Sir Harry

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Brown, Captain D. C.

Dawes, Commander

Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T.

Harris, Sir Henry Percy

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Denniss, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

Haslam, Lewis

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Moles, Thomas

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Scott, Leslie (Liverpool Exchange)

Hills, Major John Waller

Morison, Thomas Brash

Seddon, J. A.

Hinds, John

Morrison, Hugh

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Hood, Joseph

Mount, William Arthur

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A (Midlothian)

Murray, Major William (Dumfries)

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Hopkins, John W. W.

Nall, Major Joseph

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Hudson, R. M.

Neal, Arthur

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

Hurd, Percy A.

Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

Stanton, Charles B.

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Jesson, C.

Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

Sugden, W. H.

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Johnson, L. S.

Parker, James

Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Perkins, Walter Frank

Turton, E. R.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Perring, William George

Vickers, Douglas

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Waddington, R.

Kidd, James

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Walters, Sir John Tudor

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Pratt, John William

Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Prescott, Major W. H.

Waring, Major Walter

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H.

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Purchase, H. G.

Watson, Captain John Bertrand

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Rae, H. Norman

Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.

Lloyd, George Butler

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Whitla, Sir William

Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P.

Rankin, Captain James S.

Wild, Sir Ernest Edward

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Lorden, John William

Reid, D. D.

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Lort-Williams, J.

Remer, J. R.

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Richardson, Sir Albion (Camberwell)

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Lynn, R. J.

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

M'Guffin, Samuel

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

NOES.

Acland, Rt. Hon. F. D.

Gretton, Colonel John

Robertson, John

Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

Grundy, T. W.

Royce, William Stapleton

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Snitch, Charles H.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hirst, G. H.

Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough)

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Irving, Dan

Swan, J. E.

Bramsdon, Sir Thomas

Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Kiley, James D.

Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitching)

Lawson, John J.

Wallace, J.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Davies, A. (Lancaster, Clitheroe)

Lunn, William

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh)

Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Davison, J. E. (Smethwick)

Mills, John Edmund

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Woods, Sir Robert

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Myers, Thomas

Finney, Samuel

O'Grady, Captain James

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Galbraith, Samuel

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Mr. Tyson Wilson and Mr. Neil

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Maclean.

Greene, Lieut.-Col. W. (Hackney, N.)

Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich)

CLAUSE. 2.—(Constitution of Council of Ireland.)

(1) With a view to bringing about harmonious action between the Parliaments and Governments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland, and to the promotion of mutual intercourse and uniformity in relation to matters affecting the whole of Ireland, and to providing for the administration of services which the two Parliaments mutually agree should be administered uniformly throughout the whole of Ireland, or which by virtue of this Act are to be so administered, there shall be constituted as soon as may be after the appointed day a Council to be called the Council of Ireland.

(2) The Council of Ireland shall in the first instance consist of a person appointed by His Majesty, who shall be President, twenty persons, being members of the House of Commons of Southern Ireland chosen by that House in such manner as that House may determine, and twenty persons, being members of the House of Commons of Northern Ireland chosen by that House in such manner as that House may determine, and the appointment of members of the Council of Ireland shall be the first business of the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and of Northern Ireland.

(3) The constitution of the Council of Ireland may from time to time be varied by identical Acts passed by the Parliament of Southern Ireland and the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and the Acts may provide for all or any of the members of the Council of Ireland being elected by parliamentary electors, and determine the constituencies by which the several elective members are to be returned and the number of the members to be returned by the several constituencies and the method of election.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), after the word "view" ["with a view to bringing about harmonious action"], to insert the words "to the eventual establishment of a Parliament for the whole of Ireland, and".

I believe that we have now reached the Committee stage proper of this Bill. Up to now the Amendments have been snore or less Second Reading points, and those which follow may really be properly regarded as Committee points. I am rather sorry, after the very important Debates we have had to-night, that, having finished Clause 1—which I believe the Government did not expect to do until to-morrow—we should be asked, at this hour, to enter upon the Committee stage proper, and commence a fresh Clause. I hope that, although the Amendments which follow are not so important as those which have been discussed to-day, the Committee will not lose its interest in the Bill, but will do its best to improve its provisions and turn it into a really workable measure. At first sight my present Amendment looks like a drafting Amendment, but it is a great deal more than that, and contains a very important principle. The great object of this Bill is the establishment, at some time or other, of a Parliament for the whole of Ireland. A great many hon. Members, I believe on all sides of the Committee, very much dislike this Bill, and a great many can only bring themselves to support it because they have hopes that at some future date there may be a Parliament for the whole of Ireland, and that we shall see North and South united in legislating for the whole island. Ron. Members will notice that, in this Subsection which we are discussing, various pious hopes are expressed. The Council of Ireland is being set up with various hopes, with a view "to bringing about harmonious action," "to the promotion of mutual intercourse and uniformity of relation in relation to matters affecting the whole of Ireland," and for various other purposes. I do not see why you should leave out of this list of very good and pious hopes the one cardinal object with which this Bill has been introduced.

It seems to me that the hope that this Bill is eventually going to lead to unity in Ireland ought to stand in the very forefront of the Bill. Let the Bill declare, in the first page, as it declares other hopes, that the reason it is brought in and why you set up this Council in Ireland is in order eventually to have a Parliament for the whole of Ireland. This is really what a great many hon. Members want to see. They do not like these separate Parliaments; they do not like a great many provisions of this Bill; they do not like the idea of this Council, which is going to have very little power. What they do want to see is a united country for the settlement of all the present difficulties. I do not think there can be any real objection to the insertion of these words. I have great hopes that my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty will accept this Amendment. I know perfectly well that he looks upon all reasonable Amendments—as I believe this one is—with a favourable eye, and I am sure he will do his best to accept it if he thinks it is going to do any good. I would like to mention the precedents for the proposal that I am making. Ron. Members will remember that in the Parliament Act we had a famous Preamble, which was merely a hope and intention expressed that at some future date the Parliament Act would be rendered unnecessary by the reform of the Second Chamber. Not so very long ago, in the case of the Rousing Bill, we had the hope expressed that at some date or another we should have a reform of the Poor Law which would render various provisions of that Bill unnecessary. Therefore I think we should have in this Clause the hope expressed that at some date or another this Parliament will be established. That is all I have to say with regard to this Amendment. I submit that it is a reasonable one; that it will, at any rate, put into black and white our intentions with regard to this measure, and that it will put into the shorefront, of the Bill the great cardinal reason why we are introducing it.

( Minister without Portfolio ): This Amendment, as my hon. Friend says. does express the intention of the Bill, and the Government has no objection to accepting it.

I must say I am as surprised as I am disappointed at the action of my right hon. Friend. It is not that there is anything particular in the Amendment of my hon. Friend; it is harmless enough, but, as a matter of fact, the whole of the introductory matter in this Clause is a pious opinion. It would not matter a bit if he had moved to leave out everything down to the words

"There shall be constituted as soon as may be."

I would have agreed to this; it adds nothing whatever to the legislative effect of the Clause. My hon. Friend proposes to insert, after the word "view," the words

"to the eventual establishment of a Parliament for the whole of Ireland."

He says that that is the cardinal purpose of the Bill. If it is the cardinal purpose of the Bill it is one in which I do not share. I have never made any secret of that. I know the one passion of the right hon. Gentleman, the deposed leader and what he still calls the Liberal party, and the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Captain Benn), is for unity and that great party who want to force us who are still loyal Irishmen into a detested unity with Sinn Feiners are the same people who regard it as a sentence of penal servitude for life to co-operate with their countrymen who happen to be Conservatives. Their whole attitude on this question is one of cant. I am only speaking for myself, though I believe there are a good many others who agree with me. I am perfectly indifferent whether or not at some future time there is a united Ireland or not. We do not want it at present. We do not want it under present conditions. We cannot foresee a change of conditions in Ireland which will make us anxious to embrace our fellow-countrymen who are at present assassinating policemen and soldiers, and for my hon. Friend (Mr. Locker-Lampson), with whom I have found myself in the past more in sympathy on almost all these questions, should say the cardinal purpose of this Bill is that we should be driven into unity—

I never said that. I have always been absolutely against any coercion.

I withdraw the word "driven." That was unfair to my hon. Friend. But that he regards the consummation of unity in some shape or form as the cardinal purpose of the Bill surprises me beyond words, and the only thing that surprises me more is that my right hon. Friend should have accepted it. I want to ask my hon. Friend opposite what would happen suppose we took him at his word, 'if he is really serious in all this talk of a united Ireland. Supposing my right hon. Friend, who can speak with authority, which I cannot, with regard to the North of Ireland, were to say we have been thinking over all this, and we have come to the conclusion that we have been very wrong in the past, and that we have been an obstructive minority longing for ascendancy and all the rest of the nonsense we have had fired at us for years past. We are going to unite with our own countrymen and form one great Parliament for the whole of Ireland, and we will join with them in demanding an independent Republic in Ireland. That is the only union you can get. It is the only footing upon which unity is possible. There are only two alternatives. Either the Sinn Feiners have to convert the Unionists or the Unionists to convert the Sinn Feiners. If these Gentlemen, my hon. Friend among them, are really sincere in all this talk that the fundamental desire of the Bill is to bring about this unity, let them say straight out: "We want to see you join with the Sinn Feiners in demanding a Republic." I protest as strongly as I can against the acceptance of the Amendment, not because it really adds anything to the legislative character of the Bill, but because it accepts this nonsensical motion that the Bill is designed to bring about a unity which it cannot bring about, although it may come in the distant future. As a protest against that I will divide the House if I can get anyone to tell with me.

For my own part I look upon the whole of this sub-section down to the word "administration" as bosh. It is a pharasaical serman preached by someone or other who has drafted this Clause with a view of framing a text for a speech upon the introduction of the Bill. The only vital part of the Bill is that you can set up a council. Why not put in the Lord's Prayer at the commencement, say "Amen," and then set up the council. The Clause reads:

"With a view to bringing about harmonious action between the Parliaments and Governments of southern Ireland and northern Ireland, and to the promotion of mutual intercourse and uniformity in relation to matters affecting the whole of Ireland, and to providing for the administration of services which the two Parliaments mutually agree should be administered uniformly throughout the whole of Ireland, or which by virtue of this Act are to be so administered, there shall be constituted as soon as may he after the appointed day a Council to be called the Council of Ireland."

What is the effect of those words? None. What effect have the words moved by my hon. Friend opposite? None whatever, and it is because they have no effect, I believe, that my right hon. Friend says that he will accept them as a concession. My hon. Friend opposite, in order to justify himself, in this pharasaical announcement says: "Let us go back to the Parliament Act and let us see what they said in the Parliament Act." He then recited that the Parliament Act provided that there was to be a reformation of the House of Lords. Is not that the best instance of the hypocritical language that is used upon these occasions? The statement in the Parliament Act is a most unfortunate example. We all knew when we were passing the Parliament Act that it was eyewash, and this is eyewash, and my hon. Friend knows it is eyewash, and the only thing is that he thinks his eyewash is better than the Government's eyewash, and so he commends it to the House. Unity in Ireland will not be brought about by preambles, nor eyewash, nor camouflage, nor lectures, nor sermons, whether in Bills, or by governments or by Liberal parties, or people who call themselves Liberal parties. It will be brought about by one thing and by one thing only, and that is by the people of the South and West becoming loyal, and until they are loyal it is all hypocrisy to talk of unity. What you have been preaching at me for years is "Why do not you go down and join your fellow countrymen in the South and West, why do not you go there?" I do not go there because I believe in this country and I believe in the United Kingdom, and because I believe it would be disastrous for Ireland and England if we were to make a united demand for an independent republic. For my own part I hope there will be a division upon this small Amendment in order that the Committee may show that we are prepared to protest against this camouflage and this kind of lecturing which means nothing and which the Committee knows means nothing.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 120; Noes, 47.

Division No. 122.]

AYES.

[10.59 p.m.

Atkey, A. R.

Cope, Major W.M.

Hills, Major John Waller

Baird, John Lawrence

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Hinds, John

Baldwin, Stanley

Davies, Major D. (Montgomery)

Holbrook, Sir Arthur Richard

Barnett, Major R. W.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Holmes, J. Stanley

Barnston, Major Harry

Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry

Hood, Joseph

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Doyle, N. Grattan

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Elliot, Capt. Walter F. (Lanark)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Borwick, Major G. 0

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Jesson, C.

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly)

Breese, Major Charles E.

Forestier-Walker, L.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Bridgeman, William Clive

Forrest, Walter

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Galbraith, Samuel

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Burdon, Colonel Rowland

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P.

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Carr, W. Theodore

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Lort-Williams, J.

Casey, T. W.

Green, Albert (Derby)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin)

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Chadwick, R. Burton

Greig, Colonel James William

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Haslam, Lewis

Moreing, Captain Algernon H.

Cockerill, Lieut.-Colonel G. K.

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Morison, Thomas Brash

Colfox, Major Wm. Phillips

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

Colvin, Brig.-General Richard Beale

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Mount, William Arthur

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Vickers, Douglas

Neal, Arthur

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Waddington, R.

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Wallace, J.

Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Ward, William Dudley (Southampton)

Parker, James

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Waring, Major Walter

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Smith, Sir Allan M. (Croydon, South)

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Smithers, Sir Alfred W.

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Stanley, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. G. F.

Wilson, Colonel Leslie 0. (Reading)

Pratt, John William

Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Sugden, W. H.

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Purchase, H. G.

Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'ter)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Mr. G. Locker-Lampson and

Remer, J. R.

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Colonel Roundell.

Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill)

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tyne

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Gretton, Colonel John

Rankin, Captain James S.

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin

Reid, D. D.

Bonn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Hudson, R. M.

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Bean, Com. lan H. (Greenwich)

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Betterton, Henry B.

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Seddon, J. A.

Brown, Captain D. C.

Kidd, James

Steel, Major S. Strang

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Stewart, Gershom

Butcher, Sir John George

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Lynn, R. J.

Walters, Sir John Tudor

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Whitla, Sir William

Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

Moles, Thomas

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Nall, Ma or Joseph

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Nield, Sir Herbert

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Oman, C. W. C.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

Mr. R. McNeill and Sir F.

Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A.

Perkins, Walter Frank

Banbury.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

Tramways (Temporary Increase of Charges) Bill

Motion made, and Question, "That the Fords Amendment be forthwith considered," put, and agreed to.—[ Mr. Neal. ]

CLAUSE 3.—(Supplemental Provisions.)

(5) For the purposes of this Act, the word "tramway" shall include light railways constructed wholly or mainly on public roads.

Lords Amendment: At the end of Subsection (b) insert the words

"and where a tramway undertaking is leased to or worked by a company or person other than the owners thereof, under takes' shall, for the purposes of the principal Act and this Act, include that company or person."

I beg to move, "That this Rouse doth agree with the Fords in the said Amendment."

This is little more than a drafting Amendment. Some doubt was expressed as to whether the Bill would cover the case of a tramway undertaking which was leased or worked by another company, and this is to remove that doubt.

In the case of an undertaking that was leased, what would be the effect of this Amendment?

Is it in order to take this Amendment on a Bill which is not included in the Orders of the Day? There is no notice given that it would be taken?

The Rouse has just decided that it will forthwith consider it.

Question put, and agreed to.

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

ADJOURNMENT: —Resolved, "That this Rouse do now adjourn."—[ Lord E. Talbot. ]

Adjourned accordingly at Twelve Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.