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Commons Chamber

Volume 129: debated on Wednesday 19 May 1920

House of Commons

Wednesday, May 19, 1920

Private Business

Masham Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],

Severn Navigation Bill [ Lords ],

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Southampton Corporation Bill,

As amended, considered;

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time. — [ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

Swansea Corporation Bill,

As amended, considered;

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]

Bill accordingly read the Third time; and passed.

Wood Green Urban District Council Bill,

As amended, considered.

Ordered, That Standing Orders 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the Third time.— [ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

Wandsworth, Wimbledon and Epsom District Gas Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Read a Second time, and committed.

Glasgow Corporation Order Confirmation Bill,

Motherwell and Wishaw Burghs (Amalgamation and Extension) Order Confirmation Bill,

Read the Third time, and passed.

Gas and Water Provisional Orders Bill,

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Gas) Bill,

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill,

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill,

Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,

Read a Second time, and committed.

Land Drainage (Ouse) Provisional Order Bill (by Order),

Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL,

"to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Minister of Transport under the General Pier and Harbour Acts, 1861, relating to Blackpool, Deal, Eyemouth, and Truro," presented by Mr. NEAL; read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 121.]

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL,

"to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the city of Dublin, the urban districts of Ballymena and Larne, and the rural district of Tralee," presented by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND; read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 122.]

Oral Answers to Questions

India

Succession Duty

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware of the great difference in treatment in India as compared with this country regarding the levy of Succession Duty on small estates of those killed in the war; and will he take immediate steps to remedy this grievance, and issue special instructions to secure prompt repayment to legatees who have had to pay Succession Duty in India under present regulations?

I am asking the Government of India to give me their views on the subject; on receipt of their reply, the question will be considered.

Homeward Voyages

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can state how many passages still remain to be provided from India to England; and what steps are being taken to enable all sick persons in India to get home before the commencement of the monsoon?

At the beginning of last month the Government of India estimated that an extra ship or ships sent to Bombay with accommodation for 500 passengers would provide for all urgent requirements for passages before the monsoon, and they also asked for an extra ship for Calcutta. I did my best in consultation with the Ministry of Shipping to meet these requests, but found that it would be impossible to send a ship in time to allow of a homeward voyage before the monsoon. I therefore had to inform the Government of India that it was impossible to supplement further the additional accommodation for civil and military passengers from India this spring, already supplied to the extent of more than 5,000 berths over and above what the liner companies have provided. But I have recently learned that the P. & O. Company intend to divert to India a vessel with accommodation for about 500 passengers which will sail from Bombay for home about the 24th July, and the Government of India have been informed of this.

Auxiliary Force Bill

asked the Secretary of State for India whether, considering that the Government of India has insisted on the urgency of passing the Auxiliary Force Bill and that Europeans throughout India are practically unanimous that this Bill provides for a need and must be accepted, he will now withdraw his prohibition of this Bill on the ground that he himself is opposed to compulsory military service in peace time?

My hon. and gallant Friend must be perfectly well aware that opposition to compulsory military service in peace time is not, as his question suggests, a mere matter of personal pre- dilection on my part, but is the general policy of His Majesty's Government. I am at present not convinced of any reason for departing from that policy in the case of India.

Are the Government of India to have no voice in the legislation of India, and are British women and children in India to have their lives endangered simply because the Government at home refuses to sanction Bills brought forward by the Government of India?

My hon. and gallant Friend knows the responsibility of the Home Government. It is not at all a question of lives being in danger. We have to see whether we cannot get the necessary forces on a voluntary basis before we consider compulsory service.

Opium

asked the Secretary of State for India to state the acreage under opium cultivation in India for each year from 1914 to 1919, the amount and value of opium produced in and exported from India in each year from 1914 to 1919, which are the countries this exported opium is consigned to, and the amount and volume of opium consigned to each country, respectively?

With the hon. Member's permission I will publish the information, as far as it is available, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The following is the information promised :

STATEMENT SHOWING THE AREA UNDER POPPY (IN ACRES) AND THE OUTTURN THEREFROM (IN MAUNDS OF 822/7 LBS.) IN BRITISH INDIA, 1913–14 TO 1916–17).

year

Area under Poppy.(Acres).

Outturn in Maunds (1 Maund =82 2/7 lbs.).

1913–14

144,561

24,292

1914–15

164,911

28,293

1915–16

167,155

27,001

1916–17

204,186

32,124

Statistics of opium cultivation in India for 1917–18 and 1918–19 are not available. I have no figures to show the value of the Indian production.

STATEMENT SHOWING THE QUANTITY (IN CHESTS), AND VALUE (IN RUPEES) OF OPIUM EXPORTED FROM INDIA, 1913–14 TO 1918–19.

Countries of Final Destination.

Quantity (In Chests).

Value (In Rupees).

1913–14.

1914–15.

1915–16.

1916–17.

1917–18.

1918–19.

1913–14.

1914–15.

1915–16.

1916–17.

1917–18.

1918–19.

Exports on Private Account.

United Kingdom

115

498

199

2.76.650

8.72.225

3.61.500

Ceylon

105

80

65

80

60

70

2.37.675

1.91.150

1.11.350

2.27.575

1.95.350

2.47.080

Straits Settlements

1,537

755

605

239

385

152

33.97.505

12.08.575

10.17.250

5.91.025

12.45.335

4.98.360

Hong Kong

3,821

1,000

734

450

450

545

1.62.61.387

16.60.685

11.87.330

7.24.175

11.66.575

17.59.470

China (excluding Hong Kong and Macao).

90

4.17.500

Macao

150

50

2.74.425

85.750

Japan

799

900

1,080

963

971

1,936

17.98.700

15.09.875

18.08.250

23.83.070

29.39.360

64.49.355

Formosa

200

4.32.400

Indo-China

875

2,690

2,035

3,440

3,050

3,440

19.42.525

43.71.373

33.50.650

81.90.395

94.08.655

1.14.90.975

Java

3,265

2,650

1,835

1,965

1,800

2,400

70.82.975

42.33.775

31.20.803

51.29.650

45.00.000

60.60.000

Siam

1,130

2,000

1,700

1,200

1,650

1,750

24.60.450

30.64.925

28.37.450

28.67.700

45.01.450

43.74.990

British Borneo

20

130

50.000

3.25.005

Mauritius and Dependencies.

19

23

65

120

15

42

50.670

43.275

1.09.545

3.25.195

48.450

1.38.315

Mexico

245

460

4.52.775

7.79.575

Other Countries

15

8

3

7

2

25.950

18.140

8.245

22.170

7.200

Total

11,906

10,856

8,786

8,710

8,408

10,467

3.42.00.462

1.76.34.585

1.47.01.840

2.09.65.180

2.40.77.345

3.12.90.750

Exports on Government Account.*

United Kingdom

3,051

2,400

25.11.147

20.11.230

Shipped direct to the Governments of Hong Kong, the Straits Settlements and other East Indian Governments.

5,194

4,411

1.03.88.000

87.13.995

Total

8,245

6,811

1.28.99.147

1.07.25.225

Grand Total

16,653

17,278

3.69.76.492

4.20.15.975

* Exports of Opium on Government Account were not separately recorded previous to the year 1917–18. Exports of Opium on Government Account were not separately recorded previous to the year 1917–18.

Imperial Appeal Court

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he has received from the Lord Chancellor a Memorandum regarding the proposal for an Imperial Court of Appeal, as stated in Resolution 22 of the Imperial War Conference, 1918; and, if so, will he lay it upon the Table?

Mesopotamia (Revenue Collection)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether bombs have been dropped upon villages in Mesopotamia in order to compel the villagers to pay revenue; if not, will he immediately publish, as widely as possible, an authoritative denial; and, if such action has been taken, will he immediately remove from office the individual or individuals who issued orders and commit them to trial?

No, Sir. The Civil Commissioner informs me that no bombs have been dropped upon villages in Mesopotamia for failure to pay revenue.

Cotton Trade Strike, Ahmedabad

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he can give the House any information regarding the strike in the cotton mills at Ahmedabad?

I have received no report on the circumstances of this strike, but have information that there are 25,000 workers out.

Legislative Council (Committees)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that during the last Sessions of the Imperial Legislative Council, the Honourable Mr. Patel and the Honourable Mr. Chanda were not included on any Select Committee on Government Bills or any other Committee appointed by Government during the Sessions; that during the whole Session the Honourable Pt. Madam Mohan Malaviya and the Honourable Mr. Khaparde were taken only on one Committee; and whether the Government of India have of late adopted a policy of excluding as far as possible prominent Congress men from all Committees?

I do not know whether the statements are correct; I would deprecate discussion in this House as to the personnel of the Committees of the Legislative Council in India.

Political Prisoners (Amnesty)

asked the Secretary of State for India whether the Government of India have given, or propose to give, to the Savaskar brothers of the Bombay Presidency the benefit of the Royal amnesty; whether one of the brothers had submitted two petitions, one in 1914 and another in 1917, offering his services to the Government during the War, and praying that a general amnesty be granted to all political prisoners?

The answer to the first part is in the negative; to the second, in the affirmative.

Brigadier-General Dyer

asked the Secretary of State for India whether he will state the different posts and places to which General Dyer was appointed after the Jallianwalla Bagh firing; what was his remuneration before the firing; and what was his remuneration at the date of his resignation?

Brigadier-General Dyer was in command of the 45th (Jullundur) Brigade prior to the disturbances at Amritsar, and this was his substantive appointment up to the time when he returned to this country. He served with this brigade during the Afghan operations, and on its return from field service he was posted to officiate in command of the 5th Infantry Brigade in the Khyber Pass, and this was his actual command when he left India. His pay throughout has been that of a brigade-commander.

Royal Navy

Demarcation Board (Dockyards)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that representations on behalf of the men employed in the dockyards were made to the Admiralty, before the War, to take steps to set up a Demarcation Board for the purpose of dealing with demarcation disputes which may arise; that the matter was allowed to lie in abeyance owing to the War; and whether he will now consider the desirability of appointing such a board in the interests of increased production in the dockyards?

Representations were made before the War, and the matter was held in abeyance during the War, as stated by the hon. Member. Steps are now being taken, at the instance of the Dockyard Committee of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, with a view to the formation of committees to deal with demarcation questions in the dockyards.

Naval Attaché, South American Republics

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that Paymaster Lieutenant-Commander Lloyd Hirst is Assistant Naval Attaché accredited to all the South American Republics and Mexico, he will state what useful purpose this officer serves as regards the Republics of Bolivia and Paraguay which have no Sea Board, the Republic of Colombia which has no navy, and the Republic of Mexico which he has never visited?

The title borne by Paymaster Lieut.-Commander Lloyd Hirst was intended to infer that this officer was accredited to Central and South America in order to cover all those Central and South American Republics which have naval interests. As regards the last part of the question, Mexico will be visited as considered necessary, and when convenient opportunity offers.

Why was no executive officer appointed for this work, as it is a task for which such an officer is particularly suited?

I must have notice of that question. I do not know whether the allegation of my hon. and gallant Friend is founded on fact or not. I should have to make inquiries.

Admiralty Motor Cars

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty what types of cars are being used by the Admiralty at the Albany Street garage; and if he can explain why the mileage per gallon of Admiralty cars is less than 10 miles, while those in the Ministry of Transport pool show a mileage of about 14 miles per gallon?

The types of cars used by the Admiralty are Lancias and Fords. The correct figures of the mileage per gallon of Admiralty cars are:

May I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman's answer is in keeping with the answer the other day, which gave a mileage of slightly over 10 miles per gallon, and whether the right hon. Gentleman is satisfied that 11.4 miles per gallon compares favourably with 14 miles per gallon?

As to the first question, I think my Noble Friend is really as good a judge as I am. As to the second question, I am not as great an authority as he is on the consumption of petrol.

Rosyth Dockyard (Joiners' Pay)

asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the 12s. per week increase in wages recently granted by the Engineering and Shipbuilding Employers' Federation to the joiners in their employ will be paid to the joiners employed at Rosyth Dockyard; and, if so, from what date will it be paid?

The Admiralty are not prepared to extend to the workmen employed in the Royal Dockyards the advance in wages referred to by the hon. Member.

Russia

Refugees (Evacuation)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has anything to report as to the action of the British Navy in evacuating Russian refugees; whether they assisted in their removal from Novorossisk; and if, and how far, they assisted in evacuating Russian troops belonging to Denikin's forces from the same neighbourhood?

I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to a question on this subject on the 20th April last. As regards Novorossisk, during February, and up to the 25th March, 10,000 refugees and 3,000 sick and wounded were evacuated. On the night of the 26th/27th March, His Majesty's ships, together with British transports, under the command of Rear-Admiral Seymour, succeeded in evacuating over 8,000 troops and 2,000 sick and wounded. From the 25th to the 28th March over 60,000 persons were evacuated in Russian ships.

During this period His Majesty's ships at Novorossisk were continually employed in coaling and loading the transports and embarking stores and war material. The weather conditions throughout were very severe. The work of the British Navy in saving the lives of thousands of refugees, and in assisting the transport of General Denikin's army to the Crimea, was splendidly performed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of these so-called refugees formed a fresh army under General Wrangel, and is this the work of humanity?

British Naval Missions

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why a naval mission was at Baku when the recent change of government took place in Azerbaijan; what other naval missions are there in former parts of the Russian Empire; and what are their duties?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer given to a question on this subject by the hon. Member for Barnard Castle on the 11th May last. The recent change of Azerbaijan Government had no connection with the presence of the naval mission at Baku. With regard to the last part of the question, there are two naval missions—one in the Crimea to advise the head of the military mission on naval matters; and one to Poland acting in an advisory capacity on naval and mercantile marine matters to the Polish Government.

Is it intended to withdraw all these missions in view of the Government's change of policy towards Russia?

Why is the Admiralty not carrying out the change of policy announced by the Prime Minister?

Unemployment

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state the number of men and women now unemployed as compared with three months ago; and whether he will give the number of these drawing out-of-work donation, and also the number of ex-service men among them?

The numbers on the Live Registers of Employment Exchanges at 30th April, 1920, were 276,939 men and 48,976 women, compared with 478,173 men and 52,479 women at 30th January, 1920. The numbers claiming donation at 7th May were 206,650 men and 1,762 women, as compared with 372,173 men and 4,943 women at 30th January, 1920: all those claiming donation were ex-service men or women, with the exception of about 1,000 merchant seamen.

Housing

Building Trade Workers

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can state the number of building workers of each class engaged on the construction of buildings other than dwelling houses?

No information is available as to the number of building workers of each class engaged on the construction of buildings other than dwelling-houses, but I am sending my hon. and gallant Friend a statement of the number of workpeople engaged in all branches of the building trade. I may add that I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health that the number of skilled men working on State-aided housing schemes in England and Wales increased from 8,138 at 14th April to 9,116 at 30th April.

May I ask what Department will have this information. I put a question to the Minister of Health and was referred to the right hon. Gentleman's Department?

The hon. Gentleman will see from the statement the total number of persons employed in the building trade, and I have also told him in the reply of the number of skilled men engaged on State-aided houses.

asked the Minister of Health if he can state how many of the men now actually building houses are ex-service men; how many more ex-service men it will be possible to employ in three months' time if trade union restrictions were relaxed; what would be the rate of wages paid; is the present attitude of trade unions definitely preventing or delaying the erection of working-class houses; and, if so, to what extent?

I have no information as to the number of ex-service men at present employed on housing schemes. The latest returns show that there is a shortage of 8,000 skilled workers on contracts on which work has started. It is manifest that grave delays are being caused by the shortage of skilled labour, and that a large number of ex-service men could be employed, and the delays materially reduced, if trade union regulations could be modified so as to allow the admission to the ranks of skilled labour of ex-service men and others who had not formerly served their apprenticeship to the trade, or if the rules relating to apprenticeship could be relaxed. The rates of wages at present in operation in the building trade vary very widely in different districts and with different classes of workmen. Speaking generally, the rates for skilled workers vary from about 1s. 7d. up to 2s. 4d. per hour, and for labourers from 1s. 3d. to 2s. per hour.

Will the Minister of Health agree that less than two months ago there were 49,000 fewer bricklayers and stonemasons at work in the building industry than were so engaged at that period in 1914?

Without notice, I should think the figure was about that—about 50,000 less in the trade now than before the War—and that makes the difficulty all the greater and the necessity for recruits all the more.

Is it not a fact that many men are prepared to go back to the trade if and when employment offers?

There is no question about employment offering; we are clamouring for men all over the country.

Is it not a fact that in this industry there are ex-service men, and skilled men, who cannot get work at the present time, and will he go into the matter for the information of hon. Members of this House who have recently learned that there is such a person as a bricklayer?

May ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, considering that there is a very great deal of real reason for the attitude taken up by the trade unions in this matter, he is consulting the leaders of the trade unions concerned and is trying really to get a solution of this problem?

We are, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour is, too. We have been consulting the unions and employers since June last.

Vacant Houses

asked the Minister of Health if he can now say what further steps he proposes to take to enable local authorities to at once secure the immediate use as domestic dwellings of those houses in their areas which are being withheld from occupation in order that the owners may ultimately obtain a higher sale price?

asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been called to the extending practice of house owners to refuse to let, but to insist on the purchase of empty houses as a condition of their occupation; whether he is aware that such practices extend to houses of rental value not included in present or contemplated legislation; and whether, seeing that such practices penalise persons of small means and give an undue preference to the housing of persons controlling capital, he will state what legislation the Government propose to stop this form of profiteering?

asked the Minister of Health whether his attention has been called to the fact that many owners of unoccupied houses, with a view to converting the same into shops or business premises immediately the restrictions against such conversions are removed, or with a view to obtaining an excessive price therefor when sold with vacant possession, are refraining from letting the same; and whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to introduce legislation conferring on local authorities the power of prohibiting the owners of dwelling-houses from allowing the same to remain unoccupied beyond a reasonable period from their becoming vacant, provided a prospective tenant be available?

As I have previously stated, I hope to submit proposals on this subject shortly.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the shortage of housing accommodation due to this particular cause is growing more acute every day, and that questions asking for remedial measures have been put down from different parts of the House for the past two months, and is it not really possible for the Minister to announce that some definite action is being taken?

I do not agree with the first part of the question. I think, so far as this particular cause of shortage is concerned, it is not becoming greater, because houses are gradually coming into occupation. So far as the authority are concerned, I can assure my hon. Friend we have lost no time. It is all mixed up with the intricate questions arising out of the Rent Restriction Act, and I am giving notice of the introduction of a Bill to-day.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the point in my question as to whether or not there should be a time limit during which a landlord may keep a house vacant or empty for the purpose of increasing the price of sale?

Perhaps my hon. Friend had better wait until the draft of the Bill is laid.

Welwyn and Dagenham Schemes

asked the Minister of Health if his attention has been drawn to the satellite towns for London now being created, respectively, by private enterprise at Welwyn and by the London County Council at Dagenham; what importance he attaches to these ventures as opening a new chapter in the housing, industrial, and social development; and what steps he proposes to take to facilitate the adoption of similar methods in future?

I am following with much interest the two schemes to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers, and, as he is aware, I am actively co-operating with the London County Council in regard to the Dagenham scheme. I am satisfied that the solution of the housing problem, particularly in the case of London, will be materially assisted by schemes of this kind, and I shall do all I can to encourage their development.

Will not that require Ministerial legislation on the subject, and, if so, will the right hon. Gentleman give some idea as to when that will be?

In view of the need for encouraging this and similar schemes, will the right hon. Gentleman advise the Government to reduce the bank rate to 6 per cent?

Additional State Grant

asked the Prime Minister if this House will have an opportunity to discuss the policy of giving an additional grant of £100 per house to encourage building before such grant becomes effective?

Opportunity for this discussion will be afforded upon the Estimates of the Ministry of Health.

Drainage and Water

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Treasury have ruled that a local authority must pay out of its rates the whole ex- penses of sewerage and water supply outside the actual limits of the houses and lay-out of a scheme, and that as long as a local authority's arrangements for the disposal of sewerage and obtaining of water are situate within the limits of the lay-out the expenses do not come upon the rates; whether he is aware that there is accordingly a growing tendency on the part of the local authorities to substitute earth-closets and wells for piped-sewers and piped-water in order to keep the expenses off the rates; and whether, in view of the undesirability of permitting inferior systems of drainage and water supply for the new housing schemes, he will approach the Treasury with the object of getting permission to subsidise all works in connection with the present housing schemes from the Exchequer instead of those only which are situated within the actual layout?

A local authority may charge to its housing account all expenses which a private owner developing an estate could be required to pay and such expenses will rank for financial assistance. The expenses which the local authority has to bear in carrying out its ordinary obligations under the Public Health Acts in regard to water supply and sewage disposal, which would be the same if the estate were developed by a private person, cannot be charged to housing account, and in view of the heavy expenditure to which the Treasury is already committed in respect of housing, I do not think I should be justified in suggesting that this expenditure should be transferred to the Exchequer.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if a house is built by private enterprise the rating value would be very much higher; while the rents at which it is proposed these houses shall be let means that the rateable value will be very low?

I do not think that the rating values affect at all the obligations of the authorities.

Messrs. Lewis (Trade Dispute)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can make any statement with regard to the strike of shop assistants at Messrs. Lewis's; whether he has attempted to arbitrate between the parties in the dispute; and, if so, what was the result?

This strike began on 26th April, the Shop Assistants' Union alleging that the firm were not complying with certain details of an agreement and were refusing to recognise the Union or to allow new employees to join the Union. Officers of my Department were in touch with the parties, but it was not found possible to bring about negotiations. A few days ago I received from the Union a communication setting forth the terms on which the employees were prepared to resume work, I at once sent a copy of this communication to the firm for their observations. They have informed that the communication is noted, but they make no observations.

I have sent a communication setting forth the terms on which the employees are prepared to resume work with the firm, and the firm have replied that they have noted it, but made no observations on it.

What is the concern of the right hon. Gentleman's Department with this dispute. Why is not this matter left between these employees and their employers?

Is it not as much concern as the question put down by the hon. Gentleman as to a strike in India?

Is not the right hon. Gentleman's Department perfectly competent to interfere in all trade disputes, large or small?

I have no power really to force arbitration. Under Section 4 of the Industrial Courts Act I can cause an inquiry to be held, but I have not been so advised up to the present in this case.

Ex-Service Men

Training (Wales)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he can state, with regard to Wales, how many ex-service men were undergoing training when the matter of training was transferred to the Ministry of Labour at the end of last July; the number who have completed their training since that date, the number at present undergoing training, and the number now on the waiting list; and whether any provision is being made to provide training for those men now on the waiting list?

When the training of ex-service men was transferred to the Ministry of Labour there were 537 men in training in Wales; 595 men have since finished their training in this division, 1,600 are at present under training, and 687 are on the waiting list. In reference to the latter part of the question, provision is being made in the Government instructional factories at Cardiff and Newtown, which, it is hoped, will more than absorb all the men on the waiting list. We have at present in these two factories 265 men under training, and I should like to assure my hon. and gallant Friend that every effort possible will be made, not only in Wales, but throughout the United Kingdom, to make good our obligations in the matter of affording the training facilities required.

May I ask if the right hon. Gentleman receives adequate assistance in this direction from other Government Departments?

Engineers (Apprenticeship)

asked the Minister of Labour whether the Amalgamated Society of Engineers have expressed their readiness to co-operate in the training of discharged and disabled soldiers and sailors if the full apprenticeship term of seven years is provided for; whether, owing to the age of most of such applicants, this provision would, in practice, mean their exclusion from the benefits of the scheme; and whether he will seek to obtain a substitution of four years for the seven proposed, as is done in other professions or trades?

There is no reason to doubt that the Amalgamated Society of Engineers recognise that insistence on the full apprenticeship term of seven years would, in practice, make it impossible for most ex-service men to qualify for membership to their Society. The scheme of training for disabled ex-service men which they have been asked to accept provides for a shortened course of inten sive training on the lines which have been agreed to by a number of other skilled trades.

I am sorry the point was overlooked. I will send a statement to the hon. Member as to the term.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that a number of ex-service men who are also skilled men in the engineering and other industries and who are unemployed at the present time?

Civil Service, National Whitley Council

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the National Ex-Service Men's Union of Temporary Civil Servants has no representation on the National Whitley Council, to which they have been referred for consideration of their claims; whether a deputation was received by the Prime Minister of the association representing female staffs employed by the Government; and, if so, will he accord the same privilege to the representatives of the ex-service men's union?

The National Ex-Service Men's Union of Temporary Civil servants which, I understand, claims as its members only about one-eighth of the total number of ex-Service men in the Civil Service, is not represented as such on the Staff side of the National Whitley Council. It is, of course, for the staff themselves to decide how their representation shall be distributed, but the Federations and Associations responsible for the appointment of representatives to the Council embrace all grades of the Civil Service whether permanent or temporary, and I am informed that a very large number of temporary ex-service Civil servants have in fact joined such Associations. In these circumstances I do not think that there should be any need to arrange for the reception of a deputation as proposed by the hon. Gentleman.

River Plate Volunteers

asked the Secretary of State for War why there is so much delay in providing passages to the River Plate for the B 45 men of the River Plate Volunteers who are waiting and anxious to return to their homes?

I am not aware of any delay in the repatriation of men of the River Plate who claim repatriation under Group 45 (b). Claims have been received from about 12 men who re-enlisted for short periods, but their repatriation cannot be dealt with until they complete their engagements. If the hon. Member will furnish me with a list of the men he refers to, I will inform him how they are situated.

Dental Mechanics

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that the naval authorities employ unenlisted dental mechanics at trade rates; and is he prepared to employ discharged soldiers, dental mechanics, at trade rates in order to obviate the necessity of these men drawing unemplyoment pay, and thereby to do for them what the Government is urging private firms to do for discharged soldiers?

The Military Commands at Home have been authorised to employ civilian dental mechanics at local rates where the services of such are necessary and where no enlisted dental mechanics of the Royal Army Medical Corps are available.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that badly made, ill-fitting, and useless teeth made by untrained mechanics are driving the serving soldiers to the civil practitioners at. their own expense; and will he discharge the women who, with a few months' training, are paid high rates of pay to do work which exacts years of training?

No complaints of the nature suggested in the first part of the question have been received, but if the hon. Member will furnish more specific particulars I will have further inquiry made. As regards the last part of the question, as I explained in my answer on the 4th May, women dental mechanics are being employed as a temporary measure and will be replaced as soon as enlisted dental mechanics become available.

asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether, in view of the number of unemployed discharged soldiers who are dental mechanics, it is necessary to inaugurate a costly scheme of training for this purpose?

As already explained in my previous answer to the hon. Member on 4th May, in spite of special efforts which have been made to recruit dental mechanics, the numbers that have come forward are inadequate to meet the needs of the Army. The course of training for recruits which has been instituted is carried out at the dental workshops already in existence, and there is no intention of inaugurating a costly scheme.

Juvenile Employment

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he has taken to prevent the unnecessary competition between officials of the Employment Exchanges and committees set up by educational authorities for advising juveniles in their choice of occupation?

My hon. and gallant Friend is no doubt aware that Advisory Committees for Juvenile Employment may be established either by the Ministry of Labour under the Labour Exchanges Act, 1909, or by local education authorities under the Education (Choice of Employment) Act, 1910, and that in order to prevent overlapping the Board of Education and the Board of Trade issued in 1911 a joint memorandum with a view to securing close co-operation between the respective parties. I am advised that, with the exception of three cases, the required measure of co-operation has been secured in all areas where provision has been made. The three exceptions have been specially dealt with on lines laid down by a Committee of the Cabinet in November, 1918, but the arrangements in these cases cannot be regarded as satisfactory and are not intended to be permanent. I should like to add that, as has been indicated in answers to previous questions on the same subject, the wider issues affecting this branch of administration are now receiving the careful consideration of the President of the Board of Education and myself.

Employment Exchange, Macclesfield

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that there is great dissatisfaction in the borough of Macclesfield at the proposed expenditure of £20,000 on a new Employment Exchange; and whether he will appoint a local committee, under the chairmanship of the Mayor of Macclesfield, to inquire whether this is really necessary, and if premises of a suitable nature can be found elsewhere?

I would explain to my hon. Friend that the lease of the premises hitherto occupied by the Employment Exchange at Macclesfield expired last Christmas, and the temporary building at Brocklehurst in which the Exchange is now housed is required by the owners. The Office of Works have made an exhaustive search for suitable premises, but without success. A site for new premises has, therefore, been leased. As a result, however, of inquiries which I have made personally into the whole position, it is not at present proposed to proceed with the erection of a permanent building, but to provide instead temporary huts. The second part of the question therefore does not arise.

Is it not the fact that the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor at the Ministry of Labour gave the House an assurance that no new employment exchanges would be commenced without the matter being brought before the House?

When the Office of Works Estimates were before the Committee an undertaking was given and they were referred back to have these undertakings carefully reviewed. At the end of last week I made myself a review of the Estimates for all these new buildings, and this is one of the results of that review.

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to confirm the recently published figures that every single engagement made through the employment exchanges has cost in current expenses £3, and will he consider the matter?

Building Trades Dispute, Scotland

asked the Minister of Labour whether the position in the Scottish building trades dispute is again critical; and whether, in view of the fact that a national stoppage is threatened, he is prepared to take steps to bring the parties together immediately for fresh arbitration?

My hon. Friend has no doubt read the answer which I gave yesterday to the hon. and gallant Member for Leith Burghs (Captain W. Benn). As my hon. Friend is aware, the difficulty in the Scottish building trade arises from the dissatisfaction of the trade with the recent awards of the Industrial Court issued on 30th March, which decided that the claim of the operatives for an advance of wages of 6d. an hour was not established. My hon. Friend will appreciate that the success of voluntary arbitration depends on the firm and loyal adherence on the part of all parties to the decisions of the Court of Arbitration. I realise that the position is serious, and I will not fail to take advantage of any suitable opportunity for terminating the dispute which does not prejudice the cause of industrial arbitration.

In view of the fact that since the decision of the Court of Arbitration the parties have practically agreed upon a fresh proposal, is it not possible to arrange some special day for consideration of these new circumstances, without in any way undermining the authority of the Court, especially having regard to the fact that a stoppage is certain unless some steps are taken?

I fully realise how serious the position is, but I think it would be most inexpedient and ill-advised to sit as a court of appeal in respect of awards of industrial arbitration. That would open the door to all sorts of difficulties on both sides, and I hesitate very much indeed, although I recognise the seriousness of the situation, to take up that position.

Government Offices (Staffs and Accommodation)

Ministry of Labour

asked the Minister of Labour if he will state what services are being rendered to the nation by the increased staff of 7,886 persons since 1st December, 1918; and whether he will take steps to abolish this swollen staff in the interests of economy?

The increase of the staff of the Ministry of Labour has been due entirely to the immense volume of work involved in the demobilisation and resettlement of more than 6,000,000 men and women from War service and War work and in the general industrial transition from war to peace conditions. The staff of the Ministry has necessarily varied in size according to the pressure of this work. At the time when this pressure was at its highest, in June, 1919, the staff total rose to 28,000 (including part-time officers) as against the total of 18,429 on 1st May last. At the time of the maximum pressure there were no less than 1,228,000 persons registered at the employment exchanges as unemployed. I can, however, assure my hon. Friend that the staff of the Ministry of Labour is kept under constant and detailed review, and that no opportunity is lost of effecting every economy which is compatible with efficiency.

Theatres (Sanitation)

asked the Minister of Health whether he can state how many cases of alleged insanitary theatres have been brought to the notice of his Department by the secretary of the Actors' Association; and in how many cases have steps been taken to investigate the complaints?

During the past six or seven months, 19 such cases have been brought to the notice of my Department. In 3 of these cases the complaints have been investigated by the Department, while in 4 cases the complaints had already been dealt with by the local authority concerned, and steps taken to remedy the conditions complained of. In the remaining 12 cases the complaints were sent to the Department either before the local authority of the district had been asked by the Actors' Association to intervene, or before the local authority had had a reasonable opportunity of investigating the complaint. I have informed the Association that complaints as to the alleged insanitary condition of theatres should be addressed in the first instance to the local authority of the district, and that the intervention of my Department should only be sought if the local authority fail to get such conditions remedied.

Smoke Abatement

asked the Minister of Health if he will state what steps are being undertaken in his Department as to research on the problem of the economical consumption and elimination of black smoke arising on coal consumption in industrial workshops and premises?

A Departmental Committee has been appointed to consider and advise what steps are desirable and practicable to diminish the evils arising from pollution of the atmosphere by smoke and other noxious vapours. The responsibility for Government research in connection with fuel rests with the Fuel Research Board, under the Chairmanship of Sir George Beilby, and I would refer my hon. Friend to the Annual Report which that Board has recently issued.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether his Department is in touch with the Smoke Abatement League, which has rendered very excellent service in the past in connection with this matter?

A Special Committee sits daily almost in our Office; they are working at it now.

London Hospitals (Finance)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is now in a position to make some definite statement regarding the steps he is taking to meet the difficulty that has arisen in connection with the finance of London hospitals; whether he is aware that some hospitals are even now unable to meet their current liabilities, and that, unless relief by grant in aid is immediate, they will have no alternative but to curtail their beneficent work and possibly close down altogether?

I am in consultation with the various authorities concerned, but I am not yet in a position to make any definite statement.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the pressing nature of the case, and can he say when the statement will be made?

Indemnity Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the unanimous judgment delivered by the House of Lords against the Crown in the appeal case, Attorney-General v. De Keyser's Royal Hotel, Limited, it is proposed to proceed any further with the present Indemnity Bill?

The Bill will be proceeded with, and the Amendments indicated by the Attorney-General on the Second Reading will be proposed by the Government.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what will be the effect on the figures of the Memorandum?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman must not expect me to have a very capacious memory about that.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the learned Solicitor-General, in moving the Second Reading of the Indemnity Bill, gave an assurance to the House that he had no doubt the decision of the Court of Appeal in De Keyser's case would be reversed by the House of Lords?

I do not recollect the exact terms of the speech, but the Amendments will be tabled, and my hon. and gallant Friend will be able to judge from them.

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Lord Haig's Circular

asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to a circular letter recently issued by Field-Marshal Lord Haig, stating that there are to-day 33,000 disabled officers, 10,000 officers' widows, 8,000 officers' orphans, 15,000 children of disabled officers, and 25,000 unemployed officers who are hopelessly endeavouring to live upon the grants made by the Government and asking for an additional sum of £5,000,000; and whether funds will be placed at his disposal for special administration in conjunction with the Ministry of Pensions?

I have seen the circular to which my hon. Friend refers. His Majesty's Government have spared neither expense nor effort in making the best possible provision for the families of killed and disabled officers, and also for the training, and maintenance during training, of unemployed officers, in accordance with recommendations by Select Committees of this House, which have been substantially accepted by the Government. My hon. Friend seems to suggest in the last part of the Question that public funds should be administered under a system of dual management by public Departments and unofficial organisations, but I do not think that such an arrangement, even if practicable, would commend itself to the House.

Poland

British Policy

asked the Prime Minister whether the Poles recently asked the advice of the Government as to whether they should make peace with the Bolshevists; whether the Government refused to offer them advice, but told them that they must choose between peace or war on their own responsibility; and whether this represents the settled policy of the Government in dealing with other Powers with which it may have influence and which are hesitating between peace and war?

The answer to the first part of the question is that the Polish Government asked for the views of His Majesty's Government in regard to the Bolshevik peace proposals; as regards the second part, His Majesty's Government made it clear to the Polish Government that full responsibility must devolve upon them in deciding whether or not they should accept these proposals; the answer to the third part of the question is that the action of His Majesty's Government must depend upon the circumstances in any particular case.

May I ask whether, in giving advice, the Government took into consideration the fact that at the present time Poland is raging with typhus, and the consequent danger of typhus spreading throughout Europe?

What we said to them was, "It is a question of responsibility which must rest upon you, and not upon us."

Why was not this referred to the Council of the League of Nations?

Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the statement in the "Times" that the Poles are washing their Bolshevik prisoners, and, if so, can we use all our efforts and those of our Allies to stop a repetition of that atrocity?

Austrian Munitions

asked the Secretary of State for War whether trainloads of Austrian munitions, handed over by Austria to the Entente Commission, have recently been sent into Poland under Allied protection?

The answer is in the negative.

asked the Secretary of State for War whether the English diplomatic representative in Vienna visited the War Minister Deutsch on Friday, 14th May, and announced that all military stores in Austria must immediately be placed under the control of the Entente Commission; and whether it is intended to supply Poland with these stores or with any part of them?

I have no information as to any interview between His Majesty's High Commissioner in Vienna and the Austrian War Minister in this matter. Mr. Lindley did, however, on the 13th instant, make representations to the Austrian State Chancellor on the subject of the sale of war material. These representations were the outcome of a decision of the Allied and Associated Governments that the disposal by Austria of any of her war material is contrary to Articles 133 and 134 of the Treaty of Peace, under which such material must be delivered to the Allied and Associated Governments. Those Governments do not intend to hand over any of this material to Poland.

May I ask what were the effect of those representations, because it is important that they should be given effect to?

Yes, the effect is that this matter is now in the hands of the Allied Commission.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what will be done with this war material?

Polish Offensive

( by Private Notice ) asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he can give the House any information as to the reported Polish reverse and the statement of the Polish Minister that the Entente Powers consider the Polish offensive a necessary measure and approve of Poland's attitude?

We have no information beyond what has appeared in the Press, and I have not seen the statement attributed to the Polish Minister.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the statement that the Polish offensive is a necessary measure and that the Entente Powers approved of it is accurate?

Certainly not. I have said so in the House more than once. We gave the Polish Government no encouragement whatever and we have expressed no opinion upon it.

House of Commons (Sittings)

asked the Prime Minister whether, instead of a Motion to suspend Standing Orders on days when it is considered unlikely that the business will be got through by 11 o'clock, he will consider putting the question on the previous day, asking leave to suspend Standing Orders so as to commence at 12 o'clock on the following day, and thus dispense with the necessity for taking any business after 11 p.m.?

I do not think that the hon. Member's proposal would meet the general convenience of the House.

Minimum Rates of Wages Commission Bill

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the suffering in rural districts owing to the increase in the price of the necessaries of life; whether he is aware that many workmen in rural districts are still receiving wages of less than 40s. a week, especially those on large estates; and whether the Government intend to carry into law this Session the Minimum Wage Bill as promised in the King's Speech?

I have been asked to answer this question. I am afraid that I am unable at the present stage to say whether the state of public business will permit of the Minimum Rates of Wages Commission Bill, which was introduced last Session, being passed into law this Session. I may, however, be permitted to say that steps are being taken to apply the Trade Boards Acts to a great number of trades in which it is desirable that legal minimum rates of wages should be fixed. Since the Amending Act of 1918 there have been established 37 new Trade Boards, affecting 1,500,000 workers, and it is estimated that 2,000,000 workers are now covered by Trade Boards. I hope that during the next twelve months 2,500,000 more workers will be brought under the operation of the Acts.

My hon. Friend should read the earlier part of my answer, which covers that point.

Peace Treaties

Indemnity (Germany)

asked the Prime Minister what is the total amount of French indebtedness to this country in respect of loans; whether, as reported in the Press, an arrangement has been come to with France that she shall repay her loan to this country when she receives her share of the indemnity to be paid by Germany; and, if so, whether it would be possible for Great Britain to pay the amount borrowed by her from America on the same conditions, namely, when this country receives her share of the indemnity to be paid by Germany?

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether it was decided at the Folkestone Conference that the payment of the French debt to Great Britain would be contingent upon the payment of Germany's debt to France?

The nominal value of the French Government Treasury Bills at present held by the British Government in respect of advances made to the former Government since 1914 is £518,440,000, but there are considerable adjustments still to be made before the figure of France's net debt to the British Government can be arrived at, which will probably bring the total below £500,000,000. No definite arrangement of any kind was arrived at at Lympne in regard to repayment by France of this debt, but it was recognised that it was desirable to reach a solution of the problems arising out of the existence of this and similar debts due by one Ally to another at the same time as the problem of fixing the total and the method of payment of Germany's liabilities for reparation was being settled. The question of the debt of the British Government to the American Government is being dealt with independently of any question of this country's share in German reparation.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the French Debt to us is mentioned in sterling, and what rate of exchange is taken?

Will my right hon. Friend give the House some assurance that when Germany does pay her War Indemnity to France she will also be forced to pay it to this country, even if we allow our gallant ally France to defer payment with regard to her loan?

It is agreed between the two Governments that the payments are to be made in the terms of the Treaty. The costs of the Army of Occupation come first, and any sums allowed to Germany for maintenance and food and raw material come next; but there shall be no question of priorities among the Allies in regard to the distribution of the sums which are available in payment of reparation.

What effect will that arrangement have on the Budget of a normal year in which France's debt was set off against our debt to America?

asked the Lord Privy Seal, whether at the Folkestone conference it was decided to set up a new commission to investigate Germany's capacity to pay and to determine the method of payment and the capitalisation of Germany's debts; and whether this commission supersedes the Reparation Commission set up under the Treaty of Versailles?

asked the Lord Privy Seal the number of commissions, both British and international, upon which the British Government has been represented which have investigated Germany's capacity to pay; and whether he can state the Report of these commissions, respectively?

In November, 1918, Germany's capacity to pay an indemnity was investigated by a British Committee appointed by the War Cabinet. The Report of the Committee was summarised by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in a speech at Bristol on the 11th December, 1918. During the Peace Conference in Paris the question was further investigated by an International Committee, on whose Report the Reparation Clauses of the Treaty of Versailles were based. The Reparation Commission has since given considerable study to this question which is among its most important functions.

Has Germany paid anything yet towards the cost of the Army of Occupation? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]

I think I ought to have notice of a question of that kind. It is surely desirable that I should not speak from memory? But I believe I have already answered it.

Ex-German Properties, Africa

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is proposed to sell former German properties, land, and plantations lying in that portion of the Cameroons over which Great Britain is to assume the responsibility of trustee for the native population, as mandatory of the League of Nations, locally to the highest bidder; if so, under what conditions; whether such a method of disposal is likely to seriously prejudice the rights and interests of the native population; whether it would be more in consonance with the best traditions of native administration, such as have been brought into existence in Nigeria, that such ex-German properties should be held in trust by the Government and leased for a period not exceeding 99 years to some known responsible firm or firms upon clearly defined conditions as to their working, and that treatment of the native labour on them on the basis of a Government valuation by tender and negotiation; whether this method of disposal has been adopted in what was formerly German South-West Africa by the Government of the Union of South Africa, on the ground that such a method of disposal was less likely to lead to exploitation and other abuses than sale by local auction; and whether either method of disposal is equally consistent with the terms of the Treaty of Versailles?

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY OF SHIPPING
(Colonel Leslie Wilson—for Lieut.-Colonel Amery)

It is proposed to sell these properties by public auction or tender, but the place of sale and other details are not yet settled. Under the Treaty of Peace with Germany the proceeds of such sales have to be credited to Germany through the Clearing Offices, and it is therefore, necessary, to dispose of the properties at their full value, which can best be done by putting them up to public auction or tender, as was done in the case of enemy properties in Nigeria. The proper treatment of native labour employed on such properties will, of course, be safeguarded by the Government in its capacity as such. I am not aware that any such system as my hon. Friend suggests has been adopted in South-West Africa.

Ireland

List of Casualties

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in view of the presence of a large Army in Ireland, he will give a pledge that full lists of casualties shall be published in the event of hostilities?

All casualties to the military or police force in Ireland are invariably made public, and this practice will continue.

Government of Ireland Bill

asked the Lord Privy Seal what is the present annual cost of those Irish services described as temporary in the White Paper (Outline of Financial Provisions) and therefore not included in the estimate of Irish expenditure; also what will be the expenditure under the Old Age Pensions Act, 1919?

It is impossible to say which of the services referred to can be properly be treated as Irish, and which must be regarded as Imperial, since on the one hand their existence is a consequence of the War, and on the other some of them are of direct benefit to the local population. The cost of the Bread Subsidy and Out-of-work Donation (which alone were treated as local in the Financial Relations Return of 1919) is estimated at £4,500,000 and £3,840,000 respectively in 1919–20. The cost of the Irish Railways Deficiency (which was treated as Imperial in the Financial Relations Return) is estimated at £2,290,000. The additional expenditure under the Old Age Pensions Act, 1919, for the present financial year is estimated at £1,380,000.

Will the result of these figures be that, instead of the Irish Parliament having a working surplus of £4,000,000 to start with, they will be faced with a very considerable deficit?

I think not, but I do not think it is very convenient to argue this matter in the form of question and answer.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the White Paper explaining the financial Clauses of the Bill will be issued bringing the figures up-to-date?

I cannot without notice. I am sure my Department are doing their best to meet the pressure as early as possible. The head of the Department and the officials are very much overworked.

Albania (Consular Representatives)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a British representative has yet been sent to Valona; and whether a representative will also be accredited to the provisional Government of Albania?

I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave to the hon. and gallant Member for Bromley on the 10th instant, to which I am not in a position at present to add anything.

Did not the hon. Gentleman then say that we were going to send some one, and does he consider what he has just said any answer to my question? Is the man starting? Surely it is possible for the Foreign Office to know when they will send him?

League of Nations (Mediation)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the League of Nations Covenant provides for mediation by the League between a member of the League and a nation outside the League?

Why, then, did the Lord President of the Council explain that Poland could not mediate with Russia because Russia was not in the League of Nations?

Palestine

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether certain Christian villages in the Lebanon have been recently raided and plundered, and who by; whether refugees are arriving in the British occupied territory in Galilee; and what steps are being taken to provide for these refugees, and where?

I have no information to the effect that Christian villages in the Lebanon have been raided recently, but information despatched from General Headquarters, Cairo, on the 16th May, showed that the villages of Dibl and Ain Ibal in northern Galilee, in the French zone, had been raided by Metwalli tribesmen. Ain Ibal was sacked and partly burnt, and upwards of 50 persons were killed. A report in the Press of the 17th instant stated that refugees were arriving at Safed and Haifa, but I have no official information on the subject. I am making inquiries.

Is the French or the British Government providing for these refugees; if in the French area, will the French Government make provision?

Nigeria (Medical Officers)

asked what steps are being taken to deal with the serious shortage of medical officers in the service of the southern and northern Nigerian governors?

Steps are being taken to revise the salaries of officers of the West African Medical Staff, and when the new salaries are settled they will be brought to the notice of possible candidates, but there is a great dearth of doctors at the present time.

Can my hon. and gallant Friend inform the House what steps are being taken at the present time to deal with the situation out there? Is he aware that officials are dying for want of medical care?

I am informed that the position is well known to the Colonial Office: the new scale of salaries will be issued very shortly now.

Rhodesia (Native Holdings)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he is now in a position to state how many of the 35,000 Rhodesian natives referred to in the White Book [Cmd. 547] have already been removed from their holdings; and what financial provision has been or will be made to them in order to cover the cost of rebuilding their homes and kraals upon, and the bringing into cultivation of, the new lands upon which they have been or are to be located?

The Secretary of State has not yet received the Report which the High Commissioner for South Africa was requested to furnish after the hon. Member's previous question of the 16th March, but a despatch has recently been received from the High Commissioner, from which it appears that any movements of natives which have hitherto taken place have been of a voluntary nature.

Colonial Service (Pay and Pensions)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what steps are being taken for revision of the pay and pension of the Colonial Service?

Apart from temporary increases of pay and pensions by way of war bonus or war allowances, schemes for permanent improvement of salaries are being brought into effect in Hong Kong, the Straits Settlements and Federated Malay States, Mauritius, the West African Colonies, Malta, Cyprus, the Falkland Islands, the Windward and Leeward Islands, Jamaica, British Guiana and British Honduras. The question is under consideration in the case of Ceylon, Gibraltar, and the Protectorates in East Africa. A special Commissioner has been appointed to consider the question in Fiji, and his Report is expected very shortly. In view of the grant of bonus to existing pensioners and of the improvement in pensions which will follow automatically from revised scales of salary, no revision of pension rates appears to be required.

British Military Missions, Europe

asked the Secretary of State for War how many British military missions there are on the Continent of Europe; where they are respectively located; and what are their respective duties?

When did the Mission at Warsaw first inform the War Office of a probable Polish offensive?

British Army

Royal Scots Battalions

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has received representations with reference to the proposed amalgamation of the 4th and 5th Battalions, Royal Scots, whose headquarters are in Edinburgh; whether the Edinburgh Territorial Army Association has disapproved of the proposal and, in existing circumstances, it is impossible to obtain recruits; and whether, having regard to the strong feeling in the city on this matter, he will take steps to secure reconsideration of the decision of the Army Council and maintain these battalions as separate units?

I am looking into this question, and will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

Reclothing

83.

asked the Secretary of State for War (1) whether, in view of the country's financial difficulties and the high cost of clothing material, he will defer the reclothing of the Army until our financial position is on a firmer basis, so that public confidence in the Government's promise of exercising economy in every Department may be restored;

(2) if the Army is to be reclothed in pre-war uniform; and, if so, what will be the approximate cost to the country?

It has been decided that it is necessary to reclothe the Regular Army, which is recruited on a voluntary basis, in full dress uniform. The total initial cost involved is somewhere about 3 millions; but as simplification of patterns is under consideration and the course of prices for some years ahead is uncertain, this estimate is necessarily very rough. It is intended to make only a small beginning in the present financial year, and to extend the programme of re-clothing over about five years.

In view of the financial difficulties in which the country is placed at the present time, could not this matter be deferred for at least another year or two? The right hon. Gentleman said that £3,000,000 would be the initial cost, but I think it will be nearer £30,000,000 in the present state of the clothing market.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say upon what this necessity is based?

I understand that the opinion of the military advisers of the Army Council is that it is essential to keep up the esprit de corps by clothing them in the distinctive uniforms of the regiments.

Is it owing to this anticipated consumption of clothing that we have been given to understand that the cost of a suit of clothes is likely to go up to twenty guineas?

Imprisonment (Private Lowe)

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been drawn to the case of an imprisoned soldier named Lowe, son of a widow, living in Calvert Street, Norwich; and, if so, whether prompt steps will be taken to have the case reviewed?

asked the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the case of Private Matthew Lowe, aged 23, who is undergoing sentence of 20 years' imprisonment in Dartmoor for desertion, having previously been sentenced to death; is he aware that this young man, originally a worker in a boot factory, joined the Army at the age of 17 years and 9 months, served in Italy and France, and that six weeks before the Armistice committed the crime; that Lowe was wounded in the head and both legs in France and was in hospital from 20th August, 1918, until 22nd October, 1918, when he returned straight from hospital to the firing line; whether any evidence was given at the court-martial as to his medical history, including the fact that from childhood he had suffered from epileptic fits; and whether, in all the circumstances and in view of the national desire for the extension of general clemency to all men now serving sentences for military offences, he could see his way to reconsider the case with a view to advising commutation of the rest of Private Lowe s term if imprisonment?

I am having full inquiries made into this case, and will communicate with the hon. Members as soon as I am in a position to do so.

Soldiers' Graves, Germany

asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can make any statement as to the present condition of British soldiers' graves in Germany; can he state if any agreement has been made with the German Government to maintain and preserve these graves; whether graves of prisoners who died at internment camps are recorded in this country; whether it is possible for relatives to obtain photographs of such graves; and, if so, will he state to whom application should be made?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given yesterday to the hon. Member for Keighley. So far as it has been possible to ascertain the graves are well cared for. Under Clause 225 of the Peace Treaty the German Government has agreed to inspect and maintain the graves of sailors and soldiers buried in their territory. The Directorate of Graves Registration and Inquiries has since the Armistice been in constant communication with the German Authorities and a conference is being held within the next few weeks with French and Belgian representatives to settle certain outstanding questions. With regard to the graves of prisoners who died at internment camps, the officers of the Directorate of Graves Registration and Inquiries now in Germany are registering these as and when they are located. At present it has not been found possible to make any arrangements for supplying photographs of these graves.

Agricultural Wages Board (Allowances)

asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture what financial allowance, if any, the Chairman of the Agricultural Wages Board receives; whether the appointed members receive an allowance; and, if so, will he say what sum is allowed for attendances covering less time than five hours and what amount is allowed for more than five hours?

The Chairman of the Agricultural Wages Board receives an allowance of £10 per week to cover his out of pocket expenses and the other "appointed" members (except the Deputy-Chairman who is a salaried officer) when engaged upon their duties for the Board are entitled to charge a fee (including allowance for subsistence expenses) of three guineas a day, provided that the necessary absence from home is five hours or more (this sum to cover 24 hours) and for an absence from home of less than five hours a fee at the rate of 9s. an hour.

Do all the members of the Agricultural Wages Board receive some allowance?

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that he is getting good value for his money?

Nyasaland

( by Private Notice ) asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies if he has received a telegram from the Chamber of Agriculture and Commerce in the Nyasaland Protectorate stating that the position of small settlers in that country is desperate, and that a financial crisis is imminent as a result of the method of taxation, and especially the export taxes on the cotton and tobacco, and urging that a Commission be sent to the country to investigate the conditions, and if he is prepared to make a statement on the matter on the Motion for the Adjournment to-morrow?

The Secretary of State has not received the telegram referred to. In the circumstances no useful statement can be made.

In view of the very serious crisis in this small struggling colony, in the event of a telegram being received between now and to-morrow will the hon. Gentleman make a statement on the Adjournment Motion to-morrow?

Is the hon. and gallant Member going to represent the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies during his absence, and should hon. Members address their questions to him?

Committee on Publications and Debates Reports

( by Private Notice ) asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether the Special Report from the Select Committee on Publications and Debates Reports, which was ordered to be printed on the 31st March, has been considered by the Treasury, and whether the Treasury have sanctioned the increased remuneration to the shorthand writer to the House, therein recommended.

I have seen the Report to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers. The matter is still under consideration.

Bills Presented

Liquor Traffic Local Veto (England and Wales) Bill,

"to enable the Parliamentary electors in prescribed areas by a direct vote to prohibit the issue within such areas of licences for the sale of intoxicating liquors and also the common sale or supply of such liquors in licensed premises, clubs, or elsewhere within such areas," presented by Mr. RAFFAN; supported by Mr. Broad, Mr. Galbraith, Mr. Hancock, Mr. Kenyon, Mr. John Murray, Mr. Sidney Robinson, and Mr. Trevelyan Thomson; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday, 2nd June, and to be printed. [Bill 123.]

Gas Regulation Bill,

"to amend the Law with respect to the supply of Gas," presented by Sir ROBERT HORNE; supported by Mr. Munro, Dr. Addison, Mr. Bridgeman, and Mr. Denis Henry; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday 2nd June, and to be printed. [Bill 124.]

Local Authorities (Payment of Expenses, &C.) Bill,

"to provide for the payment of certain expenses and the making of certain allowances in connection with local authorities and other public bodies, and with committees of such authorities or bodies, and for other purposes connected therewith," presented by Mr. TYSON WILSON; supported by Mr. Adamson, Mr. Clynes, Mr. Frederick Hall, Mr. Spoor, and Mr. Griffiths; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday, 15th June, and to be printed. [Bill 125.]

Bills Reported

Great Yarmouth Water Bill [ Lords ],

North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill,—reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed];

Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the Third time To-morrow.

Humber Commercial Railway and Dock Bill [ Lords ],—reported, without Amendment;

Report to lie upon the Table and to be printed.

Private Bills (Group D)

reported from the Committee on Group D of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday, 7th June, at half-past Eleven of the Clock.

Report to lie upon the Table.

WHITE'S DIVORCE BILL [Lords]

Reported, without Amendment, from the Select Committee on Divorce Bills; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the Third time.

Ordered, That the Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings in the House of Lords on the Second Reading of White's Divorce Bill [ Lords ], together with the documents deposited in the case, be returned to the House of Lords.—[Mr. Morison. ]

Standing Committees (Chair- Men's Panel)

reported from the Chairmen's Panel: That they had appointed Mr. Turton as Chairman of Standing Committee C (in respect of the Importation of Plumage (Prohibition) Bill); Sir William Pearce as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Representation of the People (No. 3) Bill); Sir William Pearce as Chairman of Standing Committee A (in respect of the Harbours, Docks, and Piers (Temporary Increase of Charges) Bill); and Mr. John William Wilson as Chairman of Standing Committee B (in respect of the Blind Persons Bill).

Report to lie upon the Table.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee B

reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee B: Mr. Neville Chamberlain; and had appointed in substitution: Major Henderson.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Public Defender

I beg to move "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to create the office of a Public Defender."

My excuse and apology to the House for asking its attention for two or three moments under this procedure in asking for leave to introduce this Bill is my sincere desire, at a moment when the mind of the House generally is not unduly agitated, to call attention to what I consider to be a grave and a very pressing flaw in the legal system of this country. The little Bill which I ask leave to introduce has for its object the establishment of the office of a Public Defender, a companion department to that of the Public Prosecutor. The reform of the criminal law has always been a slow matter, and up to quite recently an accused person was not permitted to go into the witness box to give evidence on his own behalf. Even that reform was bitterly opposed by members of the legal profession, some of whom are in the House now; but everybody agrees that it has had most advantageous results.

Then we had, after much trouble, the establishment of a Court of Criminal Appeal, and how many innocent men have been saved from conviction through that court it is impossible to say. We have now the office of the Public Prosecutor, and until recently he was called the Solicitor to the Treasury. A few years ago a very distinguished member of the legal profession, with great knowledge of the criminal law, was appointed to the post of Director of Public Prosecutions, and that Department has been a very active branch of the administration of our legal system. At the present time there is no provision whatever for the assistance of an innocent person unable to provide for his own defence, except through the medium of an Act called the Poor Prisoners' Defence Act, 1903, which every member of the legal profession admits is a dead letter. When I say that the maximum fee to counsel for defending a prisoner under that Act, except in the rarest cases, is £1 3s. 6d., with £2 2s. to the solicitor, it is not remarkable that no members of the profession are not interested in it. The object of this Bill is to appoint a Public Defender, who, under proper regulations and safeguards, shall have the power, when he thinks it right and just, to intervene in the interests of a person charged with some criminal offence. That being the whole object of the Bill, I do not think it requires emphasising further. It was introduced last year, but unfortunately the clock came round and stopped the discussion, and so I have thought it my duty to take this opportunity of bringing the matter once more to the attention of the House. The only objection urged by the learned Solicitor-General was on the score of expense, but in these days who troubles about expense—T mean in this House, of course? Still, the expenses of this measure would be extremely small, while the advantages from it would be extremely great, and I therefore ask leave to introduce it.

While I have great sympathy with the desire to appoint a Public Defender for poor persons, I feel it would be more desirable at this moment if some office of Public Defender could be introduced into this country to defend the honour of foreign nations that are attacked—

That has nothing to do with the Bill which it is proposed to introduce.

Time will be taken up in discussing this Bill, and while it is desirable to have the Bill, I was going to suggest that it would be better for the peace and happiness—

The hon. Member rose to oppose the Bill and therefore he cannot consider it a desirable Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bottomley, Mr. Leslie Scott, Sir John Butcher, Mr. G. W. H. Jones, Sir Kingsley Wood, Mr. Seddon, Mr. Clement Edwards, Mr. Houston, and Mr. Charles Palmer.

Public Defender Bill,

"to create the office of a Public Defender," presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday, 11th June, and to be printed. [Bill 126.]

Sittings of the House

Resolved, That this House do meet To-morrow, at Twelve of the clock —[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

Message from the Lords,

That they have agreed to,—

Savings Banks Bill, without Amendment.

Profiteering (Amendment) Bill, with Amendments.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the marriage of John James Fife-Young with Eliabeth Frances Fife-Young, his present wife, and to enable him to marry again; and for other purposes." [Fife-Young's Divorce Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the marriage of Bryan Ricco Cooper, of Markree Castle, Collooney, in the county of Sligo, major in His Majesty's Army, with Marion Dorothy Cooper, his now wife, and to enable him to marry again; and for other purposes." [Cooper's Divorce Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to constitute a Water Board for the county of Durham; to empower the Board to acquire the undertaking of the Weardale and Consett Water Company and to supply water within the limits of supply of that company; and for other purposes." [Durham County Water Board Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill intituled, "An Act to empower the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the county borough of Newport to construct additional waterworks; and for other purposes." [Newport Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Citizens of the city of Manchester with reference to the extension of their town hall and the construction of street improvements, tramways, and sewerage and other works; to make further provision for the granting of superannuation allowances to their officers and servants; and for other purposes." [Manchester Corporation Bill [ Lords. ]

Also, a Bill, intituled "An Act to enable the South Metropolitan Gas Company to sell gas on a heat unit basis; to make new provision as to charges for the gas and application of the profits of the company; to extend the powers of the company to amalgamate with or purchase other undertakings; and for other purposes." [South Metropolitan Gas Bill [ Lords. ]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating the Derwent Valley, Calver, and Bakewell Railway Company and authorising them to construct railways in the county of Derby; and for other purposes." [Derwent Valley, Calver, and Bakewell Railway Bill [ Lords. ]

Profiteering (Amendment) Bill,—Lords Amendment to be considered To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 127.]

Fife-Young's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],

Cooper's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],

Read the first time; to be read a second time.

Durham County Water Board Bill [ Lords ],

Newport Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

Manchester Corporation Bill [ Lords ],

South Metropolitan Gas Bill [ Lords ],

Derwent Valley, Calver, and Bakewell Railway Bill [ Lords ],

Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Orders of the Day

Government of Ireland Bill

Considered in Committee—[THIRD DAY].

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 2.—(Constitution of Council of Ireland.)

(1) With a view to bringing about harmonious action between the Parliaments and Governments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland, and to the promotion of mutual intercourse and uniformity in relation to matters affecting the whole of Ireland, and to providing for the administration of services which the two Parliaments mutually agree should be administered uniformly throughout the whole of Ireland, or which by virtue of this Act are to be so administered, there shall be constituted as soon as may be after the appointed day a Council to be called the Council of Ireland.

(2) The Council of Ireland shall in the first instance consist of a person appointed by His Majesty, who shall be President, twenty persons, being members of the House of Commons of Southern Ireland chosen by that House in such manner as that House may determine, and twenty persons, being members of the House of Commons of Northern Ireland chosen by that House in such manner as that House may determine, and the appointment of members of the Council of Ireland shall be the first business of the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and of Northern Ireland.

(3) The constitution of the Council of Ireland may from time to time be varied by identical Acts passed by the Parliament of Southern Ireland and the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and the Acts may provide for all or any of the members of the Council of Ireland being elected by parliamentary electors, and determine the constituencies by which the several elective members are to be returned and the number of the members to be returned by the several constituencies and the method of election.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2) to leave out the words "being Members of the House of Commons of Southern Ireland."

This is the first of a series of Amendments stnding in my name. Thus far in the discussions of this Bill in Committee we have been rambling in the region of the high peaks of controversy. To-night, I am afraid, we shall have to descend to the rather dull and drab plains of constitutional detail. This series of Amendments touches relatively small points of constitutional detail. We are now about to enter on the consideration of the ques- tion of the Council of Ireland. It is proposed in the Bill that the Council of Ireland shall, in the first instance

The object of my Amendment may be explained in a very few words. It is to secure, as I think, and as many of my hon. Friends think, a better constitution for this Council. With regard to the objects of the Council, it would not be in order for me to say anything on this Amendment. They have, however, been described in the Second Reading Debate. It is, as I understand, desired that the Council should form a liaison body between the northern Parliament and the southern Parliament. It is intended to act as a moderating and mediating influence in Ireland. If that be the object of the body which it is proposed to set up, it is surely desirable that, as far as that object can be obtained, the Council should be composed of moderate men—that is, if it is to act as a moderating and mediating body. Under these circumstances, it seems to some of us singularly unwise, to put it at its lowest, to confine the choice of members of the Council to such persons as have already been elected members of the two Parliaments of northern and southern Ireland. I do not think that anybody anticipates that the numbers elected to the two Parliaments, in the first instance at any rate, will be men of very moderate views. Therefore it seems desirable that the Council, if possible, should reflect other than those who are already elected Members of the two Parliaments. This Amendment is purely permissive. If the two provincial Parliaments prefer the method of some of the Scandinavian Legislatures and to select the Council entirely from among the members of their own bodies, there is nothing whatever to prevent them from doing so. If, on the other hand, they prefer to select the Council entirely from outside their own bodies, they are equally free to do so. If this Amendment be adopted, it will be left entirely to the Members of the two provincial Parliaments to select in what manner they choose whom they choose. There was an Amendment upon the Paper, which I am glad to see has been removed, suggesting that the Members of the Council should be elected entirely from outside the two provincial Parliaments. In my judgment that proposal went too far. I do not think you want to lay down any such hard and fast rule. I do not think that you want to anta-gonise the Parliaments in any way. I do not think that you want to compel them to appoint from outside, and still less do I think that you should compel them to appoint from inside their own bodies. The simple and the whole object of the Amendment is that you should give them in this matter freedom of choice. Give them that freedom in the hope that they will use it in the direction of wisdom and moderation. It seems to me that my suggestion is so entirely reasonable that it cannot be opposed by the Government, and I hope that it will be accepted by the Committee.

( Minister without Portfolio ): This Amendment does not very materially alter the Bill, and it is a matter in which the Government feel that they may follow the wishes of the Committee. It may well be said that with a small Parliament as in Northern Ireland it would be a very great tax upon the Members that they should do all their duties as Members of Parliament and also sit upon the Council. On the other hand, it is highly desirable that the Council, at least in part, should consist of Members of Parliament. If one might prophesy, it is probable, when the Council gets to work, that there will be Members of both Governments sitting upon it, and, if that happens, responsible Members of the two Houses who are charged with the duty of carrying on the Government will come together in the Council. That is our object, and, if my hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment, we shall be prepared, after the word "person", to insert the words "of whom not less than ten shall be Members". That will allow the two Parliaments to choose in any manner they like, under the provisions of the Clause, the other ten. It will secure that ten Members of each House shall be upon the Council, and, of course, if the House likes, all twenty may be Members of the Council.

Ten Members at least. If they want more, they can have all the twenty. If, on the other hand, they find that the duties of Members of Parliament are so heavy that they cannot spare the time to attend the Council, then they can appoint up to ten people who are not Members of Parliament. If my hon. Friend withdraws his Amendment, I shall be prepared to move, and, of course, there will be a consequential Amendment later.

I shall be very glad, indeed, on that understanding to withdraw my Amendment. I am much obliged to the Government for meeting me in so reasonable a way.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), to leave out the word "being" ["twenty persons being members of the House of Commons of Southern Ireland"], and to insert instead thereof the words "of whom not less than ten shall be".

This matter is affected by the decision to which the Government came yesterday on the question of two Chambers for each Parliament. Does my right hon. Friend mean to alter this Clause again after the Senate has been decided, or does he mean to leave it as it is, in which case it would be open for each Parliament to make the other ten Members of the Senate? Is that the intention, or does the right hon. Gentleman intend to alter it later?

I cannot say until the scheme which the Government has undertaken to prepare and submit to the House is framed what Amendments will be required, but my hon. and gallant Friend really answers his own question, because, should it be desired to appoint members of the Senate through the Council, it is already provided for in this Clause. It is not less than ten Members of the House of Commons. The other ten, if the House of Commons of either Northern or Southern Ireland desire it, may be Members of the Senate.

I cannot answer any questions with regard to the Senate until the scheme has been prepared and put before the House. I do not want to pledge the Government in advance to any portion of the scheme when they have said that they have to consider the whole scheme and put it before the House.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2) to leave out the word "chosen" ["the House of Commons of Southern Ireland chosen"] and to insert instead thereof the word "elected."

The object of this Amendment is to ensure that members of the Council shall be elected by proportional representation, and of course it will apply equally well after the Amendment which has just been accepted as it did to the Bill as originally drafted. It is true that the Council as at present proposed, is a body of very humble and small power, but many of us feel that it may prove to be the germ of a future union, and, though its present functions are unimportant, its efficiency will encourage those who are working towards union and its failure will encourage those who are opposed to union. Therefore, from the point of view of that Irish unity to which I think all parties look forward as the ultimate solution of the Irish question, it is important to set up a workable body called the Irish Council. Under the Bill there is nothing whatever to prevent the Northern and Southern Parliaments each nominating solid blocks of extreme opinion to represent them. It is obvious, if in this way you get a delegation of 20 Sinn Feiners from the South and 20 strong Unionists from the North, that the Council will become an absolute bear garden. The only hope of real co-operation and moderating influence is that the members of this Council shall be elected by Proportional Representation to ensure the representation of all parties. Under this system of Proportional Representation we should in any case get a certain mixture of moderating influences. There would be a few Nationalists in addition to the Sinn Feiners from the South, and possibly a few Nationalists side by side with Unionists from the North. I hope that the Government will accept this Amendment, because, although their actions in many respects have seemed to contradict their assurances, they have continually told us that they eventually desire Irish union. Their method of pursuing it is rather Spartan. Their principle seems to be to put both parties in Ireland together and encourage them to fight it out, hoping that when they have knocked each other about they will become reconciled. The object of the Amendment is to encourage Irish union by ensuring that the first modest advance towards co-operation shall not be conducted under such conditions as will certainly make for its failure.

I only rise to point out to my hon. and gallant Friend that a good deal depends upon what you intend this Council to perform. Under his proposal, the Council would broadly resemble in opinion the complexion of the majority of the Irish people as a whole; that is to say, about two-thirds would be Sinn Feiners and Nationalists, and one-third Unionists. Under the proposal as it stands in the Bill they would probably be fairly equal The majority of the Northern Parliament would send up a solid body of Unionists, and the majority of the Southern Parliament would send a solid body of Sinn Feiners. The question is, Do you want to have an equal representation of the two bodies of opinion, Unionists and anti-Unionists, or do you want a reflection of the various shades of opinion all over Ireland? I can conceive of its being argued either way, but certainly it would diminish the efficacy of the Council as a protection—if it is intended in any degree as a protection—to Unionists, if it had a permanent anti-Unionist majority. From that point of view the Amendment would make things worse.

It all depends on what you intend the Council to be. I gather chat the Council is merely to read homilies to the two Parliaments from time to time. No doubt it might be better to have a variegated homily from different points of view, but if it is ever to exercise direct functions, then I should have thought that, from the Unionist point of view, it would be better to leave the Bill as it stands. If it is merely to exhort the Parliaments to be reasonable, there is a good deal to be said for a Nationalist, Sinn Fein and Unionist representation side by side, but it seems hardly worth while to enshrine it in an Act of Parliament merely for purposes of exhortation.

I think we have to look at the duties which will devolve upon this Council under the Bill itself, and we ought to try and make the constitution of the Council such that it can carry out those duties. Of the duties laid on the shoulders of the Council under the Bill, a most important one is the general management of railways and certain private Bill legislation. That being so, it seems to me that the work of the Council is much more likely to be efficiently carried out if the representatives forming the Council are in the nature of a committee or delegation from the two Parliaments. I think it is quite obvious that, whatever the predominant party or opinion in the respective Parliaments is, it should be fully represented on the Council. Assuming for a moment, as I hope will be the case, that the Northern Parliament will be predominantly Unionist, I submit that the 10 or 20 members, as the case may be, sent from the North of Ireland to form one-half of the Council, ought to be Unionist also, because their sole object in going there, as it seems to me, is to represent the Parliament from which they have come. My hon. Friend (Mr. Marriott), who moved the last Amendment, talked about the object of the Council being to exercise a moderating and mediating influence on the whole of Ireland. We do not look upon it in that light at all. It may have that effect at some time or other, but in the first instance we look upon it as a regrettable necessity that we have to have some sort of liason body to carry out work which affected both Northern and Southern Ireland. We want to see the members who go from Northern Ireland to form the Council elected or chosen for that purpose. They will be elected or chosen directly and essentially for that purpose. We think, therefore, that the Amendment of my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Guinness) would tend rather to spoil the efficiency of the Council, and we trust that the Government will not accept it.

I should have thought that what is provided in the Bill is the right way of electing members to the Council. Surely you must leave the new Houses themselves to determine in what manner the members of the Council are to be chosen. That is all the more the case, if you want to avoid friction, for the reason that when the Council have to determine upon an Act of Parliament which is beneficial to the whole of Ireland, they can give no efficacy to that Act of Parliament until each of the Houses passes an identical Act. Therefore, the effect of changing this would probably be that the Council would be constantly recommending Acts of Parliament, because they were constituted under this proportional representation system, and then, when they came before the two Parliaments, or either of the two Parliaments, they would be irritated by this method of the Council and would reject, as they would have a right to reject, what the Council put forward. The only matters on which the Council has the power to legislate are private Bill legislation and railway matters. When we come to the Clause I shall point out some matters in regard to railways which seem to me to be very peculiar. In private Bill legislation it is very important that neither of the Parliaments should set itself out to thwart the other, and therefore it is very necessary that the members of the Council, as regards each of these Parliaments, should truly represent the majority in each Parliament itself. You might have matters arising of blocking private Bill legislation. We have had it even in this House. This House in 1906 refused to allow one of the townships in Dublin to have a system of drainage, because it was a protestant township. A Committee of this House and a Committee of the House of Lords passed it. Then there was a change of Government, and, when the new Government came in, the Nationalist Members said they were not going to let this place be drained, because it was Protestant; and it has never been drained since. I made a protest at the time, but it was unavailing. I think, therefore, that as far as possible we ought to allow each House itself to determine how best it can be represented in the Council.

I confess that when this Amendment was placed on the Paper I was strongly attracted towards it, partly because I am strongly attracted towards the general principle of proportional representation wherever it can be usefully applied. When, however, I came to look into the Amendment as it would affect the two Parliaments for Northern and Southern Ireland respectively, I was forced to the conclusion that the operation of the principle would not be proportional at all. We may presume that the Northern Parliament will be composed largely and predominantly of Unionists, but with a considerable infusion of those of the contrary opinion. The Southern Parliament, on the other hand, will almost certainly be composed entirely of Sinn Feiners, or, at any rate, will contain hardly any Unionists. How are you going to get the principle of proportional representation applied in the Southern Parliament? It will apply in the Northern Parliament, but how it can be applied in the Southern Parliament I am at a loss to understand. Therefore, although I am strongly attracted towards the general principle, it seems to me that in this specific application it would work out in a manner which would defeat its own purpose, and therefore I hope that the Government will adhere to the provisions of the Clause. I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Duncairn that on the whole it will be safer to leave the manner in which these persons are to be chosen or elected to the determination of the two Houses themselves, and therefore, although very reluctantly, I must oppose this Amendment.

Before the Govern-men reply on this Amendment, I should like to ask one question. I hope that someone representing Ulster may be able to answer it. I should like to ask, in the event of this Amendment not being accepted, and the Bill remaining as it now stands, what possibility there is of the Council coming to any decision at all. Assuming that my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Marriott) is right in thinking that the whole of the representatives of the Southern Parliament in the Council will be Sinn Feiners, how can he possibly think that any decision of any kind can be arrived at by the Council, and how can there be anything but a complete and absolute fiasco? My hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut. - Colonel Guinness), in proposing this Amendment, had in view that, by a system of proportional representation in both Parliaments, oat any rate, a proportion of Members would not belong to the predominant party in either Parliament.

I will answer that by another question. If the situation is going to be such as he foresees, and if the whole of the Parliament of Southern Ireland is always going to consist of Sinn Feiners, he was perfectly justified in voting, as I think he did, against the Second Reading of the Bill—

Then I cannot understand how he can possibly have voted for a Bill which proposes to set up a Parliament which is going to consist entirely of Sinn Feiners. We say that, much as many of us who supported the Second Reading of this Bill fear what may be the immediate result of an election to the Southern Parliament, we still hope that the time will come—even, possibly, at the next election, but at any rate at some subsequent election—when a few Members of moderate Nationalist—not necessarily Unionist—views will be Members of that Parliament, just as we believe that in the case of the Northern Parliament there will be Members of moderate Nationalist views. It is to secure representation for these people in both cases that my hon. and gallant Friend has proposed his Amendment. It may be perfectly legitimate to take the cynical view that there are never going to be any but Sinn Feiners in the Parliament of Southern Ireland, but if I thought that I certainly should not have voted for the Second Reading. Without such representation, I have not the least hesitation in saying that the Council would be an absolute and complete farce. Can anyone tell me, in this House or out of it, that you will get twenty Ulstermen from the North and twenty Sinn Feiners from the South sitting in the Council without a free fight occurring at every sitting? If the whole of the representation of the Council from the Parliament of the South of Ireland were going to consist, as my hon. Friend thinks, of nothing but Sinn Feiners, the whole proceedings would be an absolute farce. I fear there will be a good many reasons for his belief if this Bill is passed in its present form. It is because we want to avoid this farce that we propose to give some sort of representation to minorities.

I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press this Amendment. The Council, as now proposed, from outside. My hon. and gallant Friend proposes to apply the principle of Proportional Representation for the election of such a body. He proposes to introduce candidates and election devices into the selection of the Members of that Council.

I fully appreciate that. If we were electing the Members of the House only there would be much less difficulty, but now there are to be perhaps ten Members chosen from outside altogether. The object of choosing Members from outside is that there should be chosen those who are specially fitted for the task and the work to be carried out by the Council. It is proposed that the Council is not to be merely a deliberating Assembly. It is to do important administrative work, and therefore it seems to me that an election of the sort proposed in the Amendment would be risking one of the first necessities to the good work of the Council. If, on the other hand, the Parliaments themselves choose to adopt the system of proportional representation for choosing the Members of the Council, they can do so. They have full liberty under the Clause as it is to adopt any methods they choose. It seems undesirable to fetter their liberty, and therefore the Government cannot accept this Amendment.

My Noble Friend behind me (Earl Winterton) asked for some expression of opinion from some Ulster Member as to what would be the position if nobody but Sinn Feiners were returned to the Council of Ireland in the South, and if nobody but Unionists were returned by the North. He drew a picture which showed that he had considerable knowledge of the conditions in Ireland, and he said that under those circumstances it would be quite unlikely that anything but a free fight would take place. I think that that might be very true, but surely the answer really is that in the suggestion he makes he is going to the root of the whole question in this Bill. If it is a fact that nobody but Sinn Feiners are to be returned to the Council, and consequently to the Southern Parliament, surely the Southern Parliament altogether breaks down, because we know that if the Sinn Feiners are in the majority and refuse to take the oath of the Southern Parliament—

I did not say that the Southern Parliament would consist of Sinn Feiners. I told my hon. Friend beside me (Mr. Marriott) who said so and those hon. Members who said so, that I could not understand their voting against the Amendment, and I also said that I wished to hear the opinion of some Ulster Member. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is your view?"] I do not know enough about it to express an opinion.

If my Noble Friend asked me for my opinion, I can only say that, in the present state of Irish politics, it looks as if the Council could consist of nothing else. Nobody imagines either that the Parliament in Dublin or that the Council could possibly be set up as long as the majority of the Irish people in the South hold the views they do now. Under those circumstances, one wonders what the Government is going to do when the position arises that possibly the only delegates to the Council of Ireland may be from the North. On a point perhaps more relevant to the Amendment I would remind the Committee that my hon. and gallant Friend proposed that when he originally put down this Amendment, it would be a part and parcel of his scheme for a joint Senate.

I withdrew all my Amendments to the Clause, and put this one on the Paper.

Quite so, but it was part of the scheme of his Senate that the representatives of the Northern and Southern Parliaments should be elected by Proportional Representation. A considerable body of the Senate was to be elected in that way. If the time should come when more moderate ideas would prevail in the South of Ireland and when it would be possible to set up a Parliament in the South and to send delegates to this Council, it is possible that, apart from very strong party controversies, there will be an advantage in having some Assembly in which matters which are common to the whole of Ireland, such as Private Bill legislation and so on, can be discussed, and, I hope, discussed without party feeling, between representatives both of the North and of the South. If that situation should ever arise it is surely desirable that the people who are to come from these two Parliaments to discuss these matters should be essentially a delegation representing the predominant body of opinion in the Parliaments horn which they come. As the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) said, if this Amendment were carried the effect of it would be, from the Unionist point of view, that they would be a permanent minority in the Council because the Southern Parliament under Proportional Representation would not return one single Unionist Member to this Council, whereas the Northern Parliament under Proportional Representation would return undoubtedly a considerable body of non-Unionist Members to the Council. Under these circumstances, the object being to protect the interests of the Unionists in the South of Ireland, the last thing that could possibly be accomplished by this Amendment would be any protection of that kind. I think this Amendment is not one which will produce the benefit which is desired.

I do feel that the Clause as the Government would like it to pass this Committee is not very satisfactory. There is no guide as to who these representatives outside Parliament are to be, as to what sort of people they are to be, and surely we want to see this Council so constituted that it can carry out from the very first those administrative duties on which the right hon. Gentleman (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) laid such stress. I think that this Council will be something of the nature of what we are accustomed to over here, a joint Select Committee, and that each Parliament would contribute its quota to this Standing Select Committee. The invariable practice in this House has been, if you are going to set up a Joint Select Committee or a Select Committee of any sort or kind, that you should have on that Committee representatives of all parties and of all sections. That seems to me to be essential if the thing is to work at all. If the Council is to be representative only of the majority in the Southern Parliament and the Northern Parliament respectively, you are going to do away with the whole tradition of our Parliament over here, whereby you have on these Committees, selected by Whips of the various parties, minority representation. That has come to be the regular practice of all matters in this House, and we want that to be established in Ireland, and unless you put it in your Act or in your Bill, looking at Ireland as we know it to-day, what chance is there that they will do it themselves? It is really most unsatisfactory to leave the Council, which has very important and particular duties to carry out, absolutely in the air. The great difficulty in discussing the Amendment—and our minds might be very considerably changed on this Amendment if we did know—is that we do not know what the Government proposal is going to be with regard to the participation in this Council of the proposed Second Chamber. If the Second Chambers to be introduced into this Bill are going to share the functions and duties of the Council, then there is much less to be said for this Amendment, because there you will get a certain minority representation. A s we have no idea of what the Government's intention is in the way of correlating the new Second Chambers with this proposal for the Council, then I think it is quite legitimate that those of us who wish to see minority representation in the Council think this Amendment should be put and pressed to a Division.

With regard to the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, I would point out that the difficulty is that in the Northern Parliament the election would be fairly and constitutionally held, whereas in the Southern Parliament, in the unlikely event of any Unionists of moderate Nationalists being elected to it, the election would not be allowed to be held. As we have seen in the Press in the last few days, if a Nationalist in the recent local elections ventured even to allow his name to be put forward as a candidate he was ordered by the Sinn Fein party to withdraw his name, under pain of death, in favour of the Sinn Fein candidate. Therefore we should come back to the position indicated by my Noble Friend (Lord H. Cecil) that it would be a distinctly Sinn Fein assembly which we should have upon the Council, because, whatever system of election was proposed in the Bill, it would be fairly carried out in the Northern Parliament, whereas in the Southern Parliament there would be no chance whatever, even if any Nationalist or Unionist was elected upon it, of. any member of those parties securing nomination on the Council.

I have listened to this Debate and I have paid particular atten- tion to the remarks which have fallen from my hon. and gallant Friends immediately below me and I am bound to say that if my hon. and gallant Friend goes to a Division I shall certainly feel disposed to support him for the following reasons. In the first place I cannot help being struck by the significant coincidence that in this matter the Government and the Ulster Members have, of course not unnaturally, found themselves in complete agreement. It is significant because, of course, they take fundamentally opposite views as to what they want this Irish Council to be. Though the Government professes to believe that this Council may have a sphere of usefulness In the future, my hon. and learned Friend (Sir E. Carson) has taken the step of putting on the Paper Amendments which would deprive the Council of those small opportunities for usefulness which the Government propose the Council should have.

I think my right hon. Friend would propose to take away from them one important thing, namely, the railways.

Of course, it would not be in order for me to discuss my Amendment now, but I would like to say I only put that Amendment upon the Paper because, as the Section stands at present, neither of these Parliaments would be able to make a railway, even within their own jurisdiction. That seems to me to be absurd. It was with a view to having that matter cleared up that I put that Amendment down. That is the only Amendment I know of.

I do not wish to enter into a controversy with my right hon. Friend, especially seeing that we should both be out of order very soon if we did so. But the upshot of the Amendment if it were carried would be, for reasons good or bad, to restrict the sphere of usefulness of the Council. I was struck by one other thing my right hon. Friend said. He pleaded the case with great force for what he described as full representation for the Unionist Party in Ulster. I think no one would wish to deny their right to full representation. The only point of difference I fancy between us is whether they ought fairly to claim exclusive representation, and that is the point of difference between those who support and those who disagree with the Amendment. He also said he thought it was of the first importance that the Parliaments should not thwart one another through the agency of the Council. I think if the Bill stands as it is and the Amendment is not accepted, there is no danger of the Parliaments thwarting one another because the Council will only by the most extraordinary accident ever agree. And what my Noble Friend (Earl Winterton) said as to a deadlock seems to be wholly unanswerable, and it is exactly because the Council to a great many of us is the one hope in a very dark Bill that I am inclined to give my support to those who wish to start the Council on its work under rather more favourable auspices than those provided in the Bill.

I do not know that this discussion is of a very profitable nature because, as far as I understand it, the only functions which the Council will have are the management of railways and private Bills. I understand my right hon. Friend is going to take away the power of the management of railways, and, therefore, all that will be left would be private Bills. I do not know that private Bills will be very important outside Ulster, because I should not think anyone will ever invest any money in Ireland under an Irish Parliament in the South of Ireland.

The right hon. Baronet does not quite appreciate that we are just discussing whether the delegates to the All-Ireland Council should be chosen or elected by proportional representation, and not the functions. We shall come to the functions later on.

I quite understand. It is whether there should be twenty Sinn Feiners in the Council or whether there should be a mixture of Nationalists and Ulstermen coming from the North of Ireland and a mixture of Nationalists and Sinn Feiners coming from the South. A mixture of all these excellent people is better than the pure undiluted specimen, and therefore on the whole I should be inclined to support the Amendment. I must apologise for having been perhaps led away, but it was owing to the interruption of my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson). I have always understood that his interruptions not only were always in order, but always worth listening to, and, if possible, discussing. That is the reason why I perhaps departed somewhat slightly from the strict rules of order. Under the circumstances I do not think it very much matters whether we have these people on the Council or not, because I do not believe the Council is going to do any good at all. There is this to be said from the Ulster point of view, that oil and water will not mix, and I feel quite certain my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) would not mix with de Valera

I understand he has never taken his seat; therefore, it is in Order for me to call him by his name.

I do not want to pursue that any further. Under the circumstances, though I do not think it matters very much, I shall vote with my hon. Friend.

The right hon. Baronet, in a somewhat mixed moment as well as a mixed mood, has declared himself an advocate of mixtures. There are limits to which you can carry mixtures, and he has gone over the border line. My hon. Friend (Mr. Wood) is full of suspicion. He is suspicious because he says the Government and the Ulster Members are in agreement on this matter. I do not see that there is any great cause for surprise that a rational proposition should find two rational people in agreement concerning it.

The Government. The surprise, I should rather have thought, would be that a proposition so eminently characterised by good sense should find opposition from a quarter that prides itself so particularly on the possession of that quality. My hon. Friend complains that in the North of Ireland we should probably seek exclusive representation on that Council. I heard no complaint from him as to the fact that Sinn Fein would much more certainly secure equally exclusive representation for its nominees on the Council. Sinn Fein, of course, would be a solid voice in the Southern Parliament. We have had an election. Out of 74 Members, 73 are Sinn Fein, with one solitary Nationalist, who described himself not long since in this House as the single pebble on the beach.

Do I understand my hon. Friend to say there is only one Nationalist representative for the South of Ireland?

In the three Provinces there is just one, as my hon. and gallant Friend ought to know.

Do not let my hon. and gallant Friend begin to enlarge his boundaries now to justify his mistake.

As a matter of personal explanation my hon. Friend is arguing that in that portion of Ireland represented by the new Southern Parliament there is only one Nationalist representative at present. I said that was not a fact. He has admitted that there are Nationalist representatives from Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal, and therefore it is he who made the mistake.

Really the whole controversy ought not to have arisen. It is not relevant to the matter. It is really quite a small matter before us—the method of election of these delegates to the Council.

The Noble Lord said twenty from the north and twenty from the south, of Unionists and Nationalists or Sinn Feiners and Nationalists, would result in a free fight. At least twenty on each side would be a fair fight. What he proposes to do is to water down the Unionist representation in order that there may be twenty-five on the one side and fifteen on the other. I suppose he thinks that would be a more sporting proposition from our point of view. He also told us he entertains the hope of ultimate unity.

What I said is not of much importance, but I assure my hon. Friend that I never said anything of the sort.

If my Noble Friend says so, I accept it, but I certainly understood him to say that if the view had not been entertained that there was a hope of ultimate unity, he and others would never have voted for the Bill.

The Council is supposed to be chosen from the Parliaments. Is not that the same thing? My Noble Friend hopes that ultimate unity will be achieved, because he hopes also that moderate men will come in, and yet he cannot trust the moderated men to do the right thing in that Parliament. Surely that proposition is not quite consistent. He is prepared to trust this Parliament with very large legislative and administrative powers, but he could not trust them with the infinitely more minor matter of selecting their nominees to go to the Council. From my point of view, really the Council does not much matter. If the Council agreed ever so, unless identical Acts were passed by the two Parliaments the agreement of the Council does not matter, so that really I do not see that there is much in the Amendment or that it is worth while pressing it to a Division.

I wish to say one or two words on what fell from my hon. Friend (Mr. Wood), because it is important in discussing this Amendment that we should have a clear view. He is in favour of proportional representation, because he thinks the proportion to be elected would be a better mechanism for obtaining unity. He is not in favour of it because he thinks it will work better while the Parliaments remain separate. It is a profound delusion to suppose that the differences of opinion which make the division of Ireland necessary are so trivial that any machinery, however it be constructed, will tempt the two bodies to come together. Nothing but a profound conversion of opinion from Unionism to Sinn Fein, or from Sinn Fein to Unionism, will make unity possible. We shall, therefore, gain nothing by discussing machinery from the point of view of securing unity. We must dis- cuss machinery on the hypothesis of the continuance of division, and the balance of the argument seems to be that as long as the two Parliaments are divided the Council will work better if they each may send what delegation they think proper to the common body.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "House" ["Southern Ireland chosen by that House"], to insert the words "for a period, unless re-selected, not longer than the duration of each Parliament."

5.0 P.M.

The object of this Amendment is that Members chosen by each Parliament to represent it on the Council shall not continue from Parliament to Parliament automatically to be the same persons. As the Bill stands at present, so far as I can see, this might happen, and it is very important that this should not be so, because in Clause 9 we provide for handing over periodically by the two Parliaments to the Council of business which they want to hand over, and therefore you Gant to provide that the Members of the Council shall represent the opinions of the Parliament. If a dissolution of a Parliament occurred and quite a different Government was returned, the representatives of that Parliament on the Council might be quite out of sympathy with that Parliament and that would diminish greatly the chances of handing over various legislative powers to the Council. Personally I believe—and I came under the lash of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn last night because I said so—that an important purpose in this Bill is to get common agreement among all classes in Ireland. That is what we hope. Without that I should certainly not have voted for a single Clause in this Bill. Therefore I trust that the Government will make it clear that when there is a dissolution of Parliament directly the new Parliament comes into being there shall be a fresh election of Members to represent it on the Council. I notice that my right hon. Friend (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) has an Amendment on the Paper dealing with this point, but I do not think that it provides that there shall be a fresh election directly the new Parliament comes into existence.

This Amendment is unnecessary in view of an Amendment which I will move later on, and it is not only unnecessary but objectionable, because under this Amendment there would be an hiatus between the dissolution of one Parliament and the election of another. Seeing that the Council have to carry on railway work, it is necessary that it should continue to act after the dissolution until a new Parliament elects a new Council.

I quite agree as to the desirability of having the members of the Council changed with each new Parliament in Northern or Southern Ireland, but surely that end is achieved by the concluding words of Sub-section (2)—

"and the appointment of the members of the Council of Ireland shall be the first business of the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and of Northern Ireland."

That refers not only to the first, but to every subsequent House of Commons.

I gather that there must be some substance in my Amendment, because only last night the Government have put down an Amendment dealing with the point.

I think that the Government intend to meet the point, but do not feel sure that their language does meet it, but if it does not it can be amended.

Amendment negatived.

Further Amendment made: Leave out the word "being" ["being Members of the House of Commons of Northern Ireland"] and insert instead thereof the words "of whom not less than ten shall be."—[ Sir L. Worthington-Evans. ]

I beg to move at the end of Sub-section (2) to insert the words:

"A member of the Council appointed by the House of Commons of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland shall, on ceasing to be a member of that House, cease to be a member of the Council.

Provided that on the dissolution of the Parliament of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland the persons who are members of the Council appointed by the House of Commons of that Parliament shall continue to hold office as members of the Council until the date of the first meeting of the new Parliament.

The Council may act notwithstanding a vacancy in their number, and the quorum of the Council shall be fifteen; subject as aforesaid the Council may regulate their own procedure including the delegation of powers to committees."

This Amendment is necessary to keep the Council in existence after a dissolution of Parliament. There will, however, have to be a consequential Amendment, due to the fact that ten outside people can now be elected to the Council. I cannot bring forward that consequential Amendment at the moment, but it shall be done on the Report stage.

Is the right hon. Gentleman quite sure that the language of his Amendment would not allow of a Member who was elected to the Parliament going on as a member of the Council without any other election, because on the face of it it is not perfectly clear?

I am not at all sure that my Noble Friend is not right. I will have that looked into.

I should have thought it much simpler to have accepted the words in the former Amendment making that quite clear. My right hon. Friend now says that he is very doubtful.

My Noble Friend called attention to the point. I am not sure that it is clear. I believe that it is, but it is quite conceivable that it will require the insertion of some further words on the Report stage.

What is the particular object of allowing the Council to continue after the Parliament is dissolved? If the Council were dissolved as soon as Parliament is dissolved, would not that get over the difficulty of the ten elected Members who are not Members of the House of Commons'?

The right hon. Baronet must bear in mind that the Council has administrative duties to perform. It is in charge of the railways, and will have committees, no doubt, which will exercise administrative functions with regard to railways. Those cannot cease because Parliament has been dissolved. They must be carried on until the new Parliament comes along to elect a new Council, and it is to provide for that interval that this Amendment is moved. If I were to accept the right hon. Baronet's suggestion there would be a hiatus with nobody in charge of the administrative work.

When we get to Clause 10 the right hon. Baronet can move an Amendment. He cannot move it now.

I do not wish to move Amendments. I understand that Amendments are going to be moved. The argument of the right hon. Gentleman is, that as this Council will have administrative powers it is impossible to dissolve it until there is an opportunity of re-electing it so that there shall be no hiatus. In those circumstances I will not press the matter.

Will it not be necessary to make a provision for filling up casual vacancies? I should have thought that this was the appropriate place.

The Clause itself provides that the House itself is to determine the way in which members of the council are chosen and also the method of appointment, etc., so that they can determine how casual vacancies are to be filled. If there is any doubt on the point I will look it up before the Report stage.

It has not escaped notice, and if there is anything to be done it shall be done.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move at the end of Sub-section (2) to add the words

and each of the said Houses of Commons shall have power to elect in such manner as the House of Commons exercising this power shall determine a person or persons, being a member or members of such House of Commons, to fill any casual vacancy or vacancies occasioned by death, resignation, or otherwise amongst the persons elected by such House of Commons to be members of the Council of Ireland."

This Amendment touches the point which was referred to just now by the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Inskip). It is necessary to make provision for filling up casual vacancies. As ten members may be elected from outside the Parliament, some change may be required in the actual wording. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider the point very carefully.

We cannot accept the Amendment. In its wording it is inappropriate to the scheme of choosing members of the Council. They are spoken of as being elected, and power is given to elect others to casual vacancies. I have already said that if any steps are required to fill casual vacancies we shall make provision for them on Report. I am advised that the Clauses as they stand are sufficient to cover that, but I will undertake to reconsider the point.

After that statement, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

It is not for me to put the Bill right, but I have read Subsection (2) of this Clause very carefully, and, though I am not a lawyer, I cannot think there is any doubt that the powers in Sub-section (2) are confined to the first election of the Council. The Sub-section says:

"The Council of Ireland shall in the first instance consist of a person appointed by His Majesty, who shall be President, twenty persons, being members of the House of Commons of Southern Ireland chosen by that House in such manner as that House may determine, and twenty persons, being members of the House of Commons of Northern Ireland chosen by that House in such manner as that House may determine, and the appointment of members of the Council of Ireland shall be the first business of the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and of Northern Ireland."

It might be held that the last two lines give the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland power to deal with the appointments as a whole. I am not quite sure. I am inclined to think that the whole Sub-section is covered by the words, "shall in the first instance," but it ought to be made perfectly clear, if necessary, later on.

I want some information as to the position of the President of the Council. There is no provision made in the Bill as to whether he has any kind of vote. Suppose the Council to be equally divided in its voting. The President would be placed in a very invidious position. Suppose the Council had to deal with railway matters and that there was equal voting on the question of the desirability of troops being conveyed by rail. If the President had a casting vote, and owing to his action them scheme was defeated, under present conditions it is probable he would be shot. If that is the kind of thing that is likely to happen the position of President of the Irish Council would be one not much sought after. I think his position should be made perfectly clear, and it should be known whether he is to have no vote at all and merely to conduct the proceedings of a Council.

As to the language of Sub section (2), I can only say it is one of those cases of drafting which very often do arise in course of Committee discussion. We have made a note of it, and if it is necessary to make an alteration, an alteration will be made. With reference to the larger question raised by the last speaker, the idea of the Government certainly was that the President would be in the position of the Speaker of an Assembly like the House of Commons, which would mean that he would preside, but would not vote or take part in Debate. But in the Bill there is no special definition of his position and therefore questions might arise, as has been suggested, as to whether he occupies the position of a Speaker of the House of Commons or one analogous to that of the Lord Chancellor, which is somewhat different. If necessary, I will see that words are inserted to define his position as that of a Speaker who will not take part in Debate.

In certain cases, yes. Clearly the matter calls for our attention, and will have to be adjusted. Obviously, the position in this particular Council will be an extremely difficult one. We are bound to assume that there may be an equal division of two parties diametrically opposed to each other, and unless you make the Speaker merely the President of the body, the whole of the responsibility of the Government would fall upon him, which would be exceedingly unfair.

The difficulty is really considerable. You may have the President in any one of three positions. He may be, like the Lord Chancellor, an ordinary member of the assembly with no casting vote, but with an original vote, or like the Speaker of this House with no original vote, but having a casting vote in cases of equality of voting, or he may have both an original and a casting vote, and in cases of equality a second casting vote. If you adopted the plan of making the position of the President that of a Speaker, neither party of two equally balanced parties would ever consent to let any of its members become Speaker, because from that moment they would be as nineteen to twenty. In such circumstances, I do not understand how a Speaker would ever be elected, because there would be twenty in one party and twenty in another.

This Council is really intended to be a liaison body between the two Parliaments, and to be a body which may assist in the ultimate bringing together of the two Parliaments. In the meantime, they are charged with certain duties, and our idea was that he should not be a member of this governing body, but merely a, President to conduct the proceedings.

May I ask then what will happen if twenty vote one way and twenty the other? There will be a deadlock; there will be nobody to give a casting vote, and the proceedings will stop. Has that point been considered? I understand the Crown appoints the President, but still the question arises what would happen if twenty members from the Northern Parliament voted "Aye" and twenty members from the Southern Parliament voted "No?" I rather think the Clause is no good at all. I believe my right hon. and learned Friend described it yesterday as "bosh."

In such circumstances, as far as I can see, nothing will happen and all the members will go home. What, then, is the use of discussing this?

My right hon. Friend is most ready to make forecasts, and, though his knowledge is extensive and profound, there is one subject on which his knowledge is very limited, and that is Ireland and Irish affairs. That being so, I am not so stirred by his forecasts as I might otherwise be. If we had to choose between his alternative and mine, I think the position of the Government is right. Of course, there are difficulties; there are plenty of natural difficulties. We can create in our minds any number of possible difficulties, many of which will never arise in practice. If we had to choose between putting the President in an impossible position or having to face the impasse to which my right hon. Friend refers, I can only say that the Irish are an extremely clever people, and will find a way out of the difficulty.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 3.—(Power to establish a Parliament for the whole of Ireland.)

(1) The Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland may, by identical Acts (hereinafter referred to as constituent Acts), establish in lieu of the Council of Ireland a Parliament for the whole of Ireland consisting of His Majesty and one or two Houses (which shall be called and known as the Parliament of Ireland), and may determine the number of members thereof and the manner in which the members are to be appointed or elected, and the constituencies for which the several elective members are to be returned, and the number of members to be returned by the several constituencies, and the method of appointment or election, and in the event of provision being made for two Houses of Parliament, the relations of the two Houses to one another; and the date at which the Parliament of Ireland is established is hereinafter referred to as the date of Irish Union:

Provided that the Bill for a constituent Act shall not be introduced except upon a resolution passed at a previous meeting of the House in which the Bill is to be introduced.

(2) On the date of Irish Union the Council of Ireland shall cease to exist and there shall be transferred to the Parliament and Government of Ireland, all powers then exerciseable by the Council of Ireland, and also the matters whch under this Act cease to be reserved matters at the date of Irish Union, and any other powers for the joint exercise of which by the Parliaments or Governments of Southern and Northern Ireland provision has been made under this Act.

(3) There shall also be transferred to the Parliament and Government of Ireland, except so far as the constituent Acts otherwise provide, all the powers and duties of the Parliaments and Governments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland, including all powers as to taxation, and unless any powers and duties are retained by the Parliaments and Governments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland under the constituent Acts, those Parliaments and Governments shall cease to exist:

Provided that if any powers and duties are so retained the constituent Acts shall make provision with respect to the financial relations between the Exchequers of Southern and Northern Ireland on the one hand and the Irish Exchequer on the other.

(4) If by the constituent Acts any powers and duties are so retained as aforesaid the Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland may subsequently by identical Acts transfer any of those powers and duties to the Government and Parliament of Ireland, and in the event of all such powers and duties being so transferred, the Parliaments and Governments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland shall cease to exist.

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "Acts" ["constituent Acts"] to insert the words, "agreed to by an absolute majority of Members of each Parliament at the Third Reading."

There is a precedent for this in Section 128 of the Australian Constitution Act, 1900, which reads:

With the object in view I am in entire sympathy. Everyone must agree that it is most desirable that so great a change as that of the union of the two Parliaments should not be brought about by a snap vote. I am aware that there are various safeguards to be found in existing precedents. I confess that we thought the powers put into the Bill were sufficient. If my hon. Friend looks at the proviso at the end of Sub-section (1) he will see that

"a constituent Act shall not be introduced except upon a Resolution passed at a previous meeting of the House in which the Bill is to be introduced."

I should have thought that that was ample safeguard against any sudden or snap action, and that it would have been on the whole undesirable to introduce a special provision of this kind. I should like to hear much more definitely whether there are any views held in any quarter of the House in support of this Amendment, and if there is a real cause for anxiety it is a matter which would be considered.

I am not wedded to the particular form of Amendment, but I would urge upon the Government that the Bill is not really strong enough in taking care that such a great change as this, and it would, of course, be an immense change, would really represent the views of the people. Let me put this consideration before my right hon. Friend. If these Parliaments are to work at all, and I hope the North of Ireland Parliament will, I think, the sooner you get away in the working of the Parliament from present Party politics in Ireland, the better. Unless you do that there will always be the same, old squabbles going on as between those who are in favour of separate treatment for Ulster and those who are in favour of her coming under a Dublin Parliament. Unless you have the Bill strengthened in such a way as to make it absolutely certain that no scratch majority of a Parliament which may be elected on entirely different questions can do this, it will be necessary to raise this question at every single election you hold for the North of Ireland Parliament, and I am only talking of it at present as I can claim with some authority to speak as to what may happen there. Suppose, and I think it is likely, that North of Ireland elections turn on labour questions where you might have parties on both sides who agree to come together for the benefit of their class, and that would be very important in a great industrial community like Ulster. Suppose there were prepared to come together at an election at which the question for the electorate to decide would be as to who shall go to Parliament to carry out the programme which might be put forward, would it not be most unfortunate if you had to raise the issue at such an election as that, "while it is all very well to elect so and so, because he will represent this particular labour programme, do remember when you have elected this Parliament you will have to take care that the majority in the Parliament do not under this Clause agree to a Bill to amalgamate with the other Parliament in Ireland." That would be a most unfortunate issue to have introduced, and unless you have your Bill strong enough to take care that such a momentous issue as this is in some way or other put before the electorate, I cannot see how you are ever to eliminate these questions from the North of Ireland Parliament.

I do not believe there is any constitution where you can change the whole basis and fabric of constitutional government, to abandon a Parliament or to amalgamate a Parliament, or to make a constitutional change of that kind, by a bare majority. I do not know of any constitution of the kind, and certainly in none of our colonies, and not in America, where you have the Federal system, could such a thing be done. The Bill even goes further than that, and this is what my hon. Friend's Amendment is directed to. He says you could make this change even without a majority of the Parliament elected, and you could make it by a majority of those who happen to be there at the time. This is a matter of some importance, and under such circumstances as these you ought at least to take care that the change that is being made is made with the assent of the majority of the people. I do not think the Amendment goes far enough, but it is at all events some safeguard. My right hon. Friend the First Lord refers to the Resolution which has to be passed, according to the provision at the end of the Sub-section, that there must be a resolution on which the Bill is to be founded. But that is really no more assistance, because exactly the same thing may happen there. The majority required there is not a majority of the Parliament, but only a majority of Members. I think if you are to get these questions out of the people's minds, and if they are to turn on to the real business of the province, you must make it perfectly safe and secure that you are not going to allow a change of this kind to be made unless you have some method of ascertaining what is the real wish of the whole of the electorate. It would really be an impossible thing to carry on business if every time you gave a vote at an election, or every time you gave a vote in Parliament, you are not to be considering what is really good for the province in a businesslike way, but you were always at the back of your mind to be considering how will this affect the province or the Parliament. You will have it raised at every general election, and it will be very bad at the commencement of the Parliament if that is the way in which the matter will be worked out. Therefore I do appeal to my right hon. Friend to reconsider the matter and see whether he cannot adopt some method. There are several other Amendments raising this point, which is a very material point. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to reconsider whether the Bill is strong enough to see that any such change as this is really carried with the assent of the great majority of the electors in the constituencies.

I can only say that the Government will very willingly do what my right hon. Friend asks. We quite recognise that he speaks not alone as the representative and leader of a party in Ireland, but also as a great lawyer whose views on a question of this kind must carry a good deal of weight, quite apart from any consideration of the particular measure. We really thought we had put in the Bill safeguards which would be sufficient. We are quite at one with him that it should be impossible to carry legislation of this kind by accident as it were, because that would defeat the object in view of uniting the two Parliaments. If by some sudden accident or mischance legislation was passed which did not represent the views of the North of Ireland, does anybody believe that there would be the smallest chance of bringing that union about in any effective way or in a way that might be successful. Therefore anything of the kind is to be avoided. You cannot ease the quarrels or get rid of the sores of centuries in a moment. My right hon. and learned Friend has said scores of times in this House and out of it that if both sides will come together with the same motives and desires he would be as ready as anybody to see that everything is done to bring about friendship. Therefore it would be idle to pretend that by merely passing by accident an Act of Parliament you are going to get over all the troubles which have lasted unhappily so long. There is another proposal which suggests a referendum, but I do not think that is at all attractive. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] It would be a brand new system to introduce into this country. We have not any referendum now.

Not a very good example to give me. Since we have put these precautions in there are to be added two Chambers, one for the North, and one for the South, and therefore the procedure now will be a Resolution passed by four Chambers, that is the Senate, and Lower House in the North, and the Senate and Lower House in the South, and then identical Acts of Parliament. I agree with my right hon. Friend that these powers need further examination, and we readily accede to his request that they shall be re-examined, and I shall be very glad on behalf of the Government to hear from anybody who is interested in this matter. We will reconsider it before the Report stage, and if we think additional powers are required we will place them on the Paper.

The reason why I rise is that the next Amendment appears in my name, and it suggests the alternative of a referendum. The right hon. Gentleman rather threw disapproval upon that suggestion just now, because he said it was not adopted anywhere in this country so far as he knew. Perhaps it is not out of place to remind him that he himself strongly advocated a referendum when the discussions on the Parliament Act was taking place in 1911. I took the trouble not long ago to look up a speech made by the First Lord in 1911, in which he strongly supported in this House the application of a referendum to deal with large questions such as constitutional alterations.

My hon. and gallant Friend is perfectly right, but I am sure that as a young Member he will not deny older men the privilege of changing their opinions. I had an experience of the referendum in a part of His Majesty's Dominions. I saw it working, and I came quite definitely to the conclusion that it involved dangers of the gravest kind, and that it might cripple a Government and greatly reduce the power and authority of Parliament.

I quite appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman has good reasons for changing his views, but at the same time he has promised on behalf of the Government to consider this matter, and I hope when he does consider it, he will not altogether rule out the consideration of a referendum as one of the possible alternatives.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman will consider whether this particular proposal is really satisfactory at all. Its object is that some safeguard shall be introduced to prevent a snap vote from constituting the new Parliament. Clause 3 provides, even if this Amendment were introduced, that the two Parliaments are to do something by identical Acts. In Clause 4 there is a provision that these Parliaments shall only have the power to make laws in respect of matters exclusively relating to the portion of Ireland within their jurisdiction. If the Bill which is to become an identical Act is to go through the ordinary process of legislation, it will only, it seems to me, become an identical Act when it has reached its Third Read ing and is in identical form with the Act which is being passed by the other Parliament. I can imagine, elaborate arguments being made while the Bill is becoming an Act by anybody who wants to prevent the constitution of one Parliament, the sort of contentions that are so often resorted to in the American Congress on questions relating to the Federal Constitution, and so forth. I suggest that the Clause is so unworkable that even when the safeguard which has been proposed is introduced it will not be possible for the two Parliaments ever to arrive at an identical Act. What I anticipate is that when the Northern Parliament embarks on the Bill which is intended to become an identical Act, somebody will say that it relates, in so far as it is considering the constitution of the Parliament outside Northern Ireland, to a matter not exclusively relating to the portion within their jurisdiction. I would like the right hon. Gentleman to consider this question.

Does not Sub-section (2) of Clause 4, cover that point? It reads as follows:

"The limitation on the powers of the said Parliaments to the making of laws with respect to matters exclusively relating to the portion of Ireland within their respective jurisdictions shall not be construed so as to prevent the said Parliaments by identical legislation making laws respecting matters affecting both Southern and Northern Ireland."

I should have thought Clause 3 alone gave sufficient power, because it specifically enacts that the two Parliaments may by identical Acts establish a Parliament for the whole of Ireland. However, I think the words my right hon. Friend has pointed to make it perfectly clear. As my right hon. Friend will consider this matter—for which I am very grateful, because I think it is a matter which in working out would be of extreme importance—may I suggest, as he has an objection to a referendum, as to whether there might not be a scheme by which any Act should not become effective until after a General Election, at which the matter could be submitted? I merely throw that out as a suggestion.

It is truce that referendum is unknown in this country, but then the powers we are giving to these two Parliaments in Ireland are also quite unknown. We are giving them the power of extinguishing themselves, and to take a referendum on such a question is a very different thing from a referendum such as that to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. I assume, of course, that he was thinking of the referendum on conscription in Australia. The issue there was that it gave an instruction to a. legislative body that it should do something, and that, of course, would take away the sovereign power of a House like this, I quite admit, but the point here is quite different. For the electors at large to say, "You shall not extinguish yourselves, but you shall continue to legislate for us," is quite a different matter.

Is it really necessary that a new principle should be introduced into a Parliamentary constitution in Ireland, when we have never considered it necessary in Great Britain? It has been shown over and over again at Parliamentary elections in Ireland, that when either party want a majority they will bring every possible man to the poll. Indeed, I have heard of a Parliamentary election in Ireland where doctors have been called in to decide whether a voter was dead or alive. I do not see anything wrong with the principle of a referendum, but is it really worth while, in view of the well-known political acumen of the Irish people, when we know they will bring the last man to the poll, to introduce this new idea?

I am surprised to find a representative of a Scottish constituency opposing such a democratic proposal as a referendum.

In view of what the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord has said, I ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

6.0 P.M.

The object of this Clause, as I understand it, is to endeavour to promote one Parliament for the whole of Ireland. I find myself, as I have always been, against the principle of having a Parliament in Ireland at all, and therefore I shall certainly oppose this Clause, but supposing that I was in favour of one Parliament for Ireland, is it likely that this Clause would carry it out? We have had several discussions upon what is likely to take place when these two Parliaments are set up, and we have been told that in the north of Ireland the northerners will endeavour to work that Parliament in the best possible manner, but, at the same time, they have told us they will have no truck or relationship with either the Nationalists or the Sinn Feiners. Therefore, under those circumstances, as the Southern Parliament would be composed either completely of Sinn Feiners or of a large majority of Sinn Feiners and a small minority of Nationalists, what hope is there that those two different parties can come together? The whole idea of a Parliament for Ireland is particularly offensive to those hon. Members of this House and those people in the country who are still Unionists. Whether or not there are many people outside this House who have been faithful to their old principles and still believe that the United Kingdom should remain the United Kingdom, I do not know. I hope there are, but there are still a few in this House who hold the view which the Conservative party have held ever since 1886, namely, that any attempt to set up one Parliament in Ireland is injurious to the true interests of the country as a whole. I have sat through many Home Rule Bill Debates in this House, but I have never seen such a scene as I see at this moment —hardly anyone in the House, the Front Opposition Bench with only one hon. Member on it, the Benches behind inhabited by five hon. Members, and, with the exception of a certain number of hon. Members from Ulster on this side, there is practically nobody in the House to take any interest in the Bill at all, yet here we are declaring that the Parliaments of Ireland may determine whether or not there shall be one Parliament for the whole of Ireland. Are not English people, who after all are in the majority in this country, going to be called in to determine whether or not there shall be one Parliament for the whole of Ireland? I should have thought they had some claim to be consulted. It was different in the case of the other Bills. There they were told that there was to be one Parliament for Ireland, and Great Britain could decide whether or not they thought it wise to have one Parliament. This is quite different. Two Parliaments are to be set up under the Bill, which goes further and says, that without any referendum either to the Irish people or to the people of Great Britain, who, I think, ought to have a referendum just as much as people in Ireland, these two Parliaments to be set up can decide whether or not there is to be one Parliament. Look at the state of Ireland at the present moment. Are the Southern portions of Ireland fit to have any Parliament at all? Still less are they fitted to decide whether there shall he one Parliament governing the whole of the country. I feel very strongly about the whole thing, and if I can get a teller I shall certainly divide against this Clause standing part. I think it is an insult to the United Kingdom that they should not be consulted as to whether or not it is right that these two Parliaments should be amalgamated. All kinds of things might happen, and part of the United Kingdom is to be taken away without the majority of the United Kingdom having a say in the matter. I do think it is necessary we should have now a short discussion as to whether or not it is desirable to give Ireland the power to set up one Parlia- ment, and practically sever herself from the rest of the United Kingdom.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 4.—(Legislative powers of Irish Parliament.)

Legislative Powers

(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act the Parliament of Southern Ireland and the Parliament of Northern Ireland shall respectively have power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland with the following limitations, namely, that they shall not have power to make laws except in respect of matters exclusively relating to the portion of Ireland within their jurisdiction, or some part thereof, and (without prejudice to that general limitation) that they shall not have power to make laws in respect of the following matters in particular, namely:

(1) The Crown or the succession to the Crown, or a regency, or the property of the Crown (including foreshore vested in the Crown), or the Lord Lieutenant, except as respects the exercise of his executive power in relation to Irish services as defined for the purposes of this Act; or

(2) The making of peace or war, or matters arising from a state of war; or the regulation of the conduct of any portion of His Majesty's subjects during the existence of hostilities between foreign states with which His Majesty is at peace, in relation to those hostilities; or

(3) The Navy, the Army, the Air Force, the Territorial Force, or any other naval, military, or air force, or the Defence of the Realm, or any other naval, military, or air force matter (including any pensions and allowances payable to persons who have been members of or in respect of service in any such force or their widows or dependants, and provision for the training, education, employment and assistance for the reinstatement in civil life of persons who have ceased to be members of any such force); or

(4) Treaties, or any relations with foreign states, or relations with other parts of His Majesty's Dominions, or matters involving the contravention of treaties or agreements with foreign states or any part of His Majesty's Dominions, or offences connected with any such treaties or relations, or procedure connected with they extradition of criminals under any treaty, or the return of fugitive offenders from or to any part of His Majesty's Dominions; or

(5) Dignities or titles of honour; or

(6) Treason, treason felony, alienage, naturalisation, or aliens as such, or domicile; or

(7) Trade with any place out of the part of Ireland within their jurisdiction, except so far as trade may be affected by the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the said Parliaments, or by Regulations made for the sole purpose of preventing contagious disease, or by steps taken by means of inquiries or agencies out of the part of Ireland within their jurisdiction for the improvement of the trade of that part or for the protection of traders of that part from fraud; the granting of bounties on the export of goods; quarantine; navigation, including merchant shipping (except as respects inland waters, the regulation of harbours, and local health regulations); or

(8) Submarine cables; or

(9) Wireless telegraphy; or

(10) Aerial navigation; or

(11) Lighthouses, buoys, or beacons (except so far as they can consistently with any general Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom be constructed or maintained by a local harbour authority); or

(12) Coinage; legal tender; or any change in the standard of weights and measures; or

(13) Trade marks, designs, merchandise marks, copyright, or patent rights; or

(14) Any matter which by this Act is declared to be a reserved matter, so long as it remains reserved.

Any law made in contravention of the limitations imposed by this section shall, so far as it contravenes those limitations, be void.

(2) The limitation on the powers of the said Parliaments to the making of laws with respect to matters exclusively relating to the portion of Ireland within their respective jurisdictions shall not be construed so as to prevent the said Parliaments by identical legislation making laws respecting matters affecting both Southern and Northern Ireland.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out from the word "laws" ["to make laws for the peace"] to the end of the Clause, and to insert instead thereof the words to ask themselves the question why there is this difference between, for example, the constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia and the constitution pf the Dominion of Canada? The reason is obvious. When you made your Commonwealth of Australia it was a centripetal process. You were bringing together States that were formerly independent into a federal whole. In the case of Canada the process was in the main, though not wholly, centrifugal. You were conferring certain powers upon provinces which you were setting up, or, in other words, it was precisely what this Bill professes to be. It was a scheme of federal devolution. In that scheme of federal devolution the residue of powers was vested—and, as I venture to suggest, was properly vested—in the Dominion Parliament, and I suggest, with all possible respect, that this is the acid test of centrifugal federalism.

I was very much interested a day or two ago to pick up a pamphlet by one of the most respected citizens of Ireland. It comes from the pen of one who is not known as a politician, and whose name, I think, will carry all the greater weight in this House for that reason. The name of the writer is Mr. Frederic W. Pim, of Dublin, a man who throughout the whole mercantile and commercial community in Ireland is respected as much as any man in that country. He was good enough to send me a day or two ago a pamphlet on "Home Rule through Federal Devolution," which contains this: the Committee, where are the marks of federalism in this Bill? This Clause is taken totidem verbis (allowing for two Parliaments, instead of one) from the Government of Ireland Act, 1914. Was that a Federal Act? What did the Members of the present Government think of that Act when it was passing through this House? If any Member of the Committee is curious enough to turn up the Debates of that day he will find that those Members who were responsible for the production and presentation to this House of this Bill were emphatic in their declaration that the Bill of 1914 contravened the federal principle. I will venture to quote from a respected Member of this House—now Lord Justice Cave—who said, speaking of the Bill of 1914—and, mind you, this Bill comes from that Act—

If I may be allowed to do so, let me take this matter a little further. The First Lord of the Admiralty said the other night: reserve to the Imperial Legislature. [HON. MEMBERS "Hear, hear!"] Yes, but that is not at all the same process. That is entirely the reverse process. Is that the process followed in the case of the British North America Act, 1867? I am sure the Minister of Education will not get up and assert that; yet the Bill of 1867 is the one you have apparently taken as a model of the Bill you are now proposing to the House, especially in this Clause which, as I say, is the crucial test of the federal principle, or the absence of it. These two Parliaments in Ireland, as we have been told repeatedly in Debate in Committee, are to be provincial Parliaments, set up avowedly on the analogy of the provincial Parliaments in the British North America Act, 1867. The First Lord of the Admiralty told us so the other night. The Noble Lord the right hon. Member for Hitchin (Lord R. Cecil) asked: of the Prime Minister himself on the Second Reading of the Bill. He was challenged by the right hon. Gentleman for Paisley as to the paucity of the powers which were being placed upon the Irish Parliament, and he answered by quoting those powers which I have enumerated, and which, lotiden verbis, are taken from his speech, with the exception of one or two that I have got from the British North America Act, which the Government profess to be the model of this Bill, and of this Clause. Let me say at once that on the specific enumeration of these powers, I should not be vain enough to set any store. They are for the most part powers enumerated by the Prime Minister, and, therefore, are only the Government's own enumeration. I do not wish to lay any stress upon these particular powers, though, as I hope, I may have the good fortune to induce the Government and the Committee to accept this Amendment in principle. It is perfectly possible further to amend the Bill either by way of extension or restriction of the powers which I am proposing to delegate.

I do not wish to detain the Committee at any length, though I submit this is an Amendment of the greatest possible substance. I bring it forward in no spirit of hostility to the principle of the Bill. I would, however, venture to make a very earnest appeal to the Committee not lightly to reject this Amendment. It is intended sincerely to bring the provisions of this Bill into conformity with the principles proclaimed by the sponsors of the Bill, those principles, which they themselves, not once, but over and over again in the course of these discussions, have declared to be fundamental. They tell us that the basic principle of this Bill is the federal principle. Again I ask them to point out where we are to look for that basic principle in the provisions of the Bill? I respectfully submit that Clause 4, into the consideration of which we have entered, is, as it stands, inconsistent with what they have declared to be their fundamental principles. I sincerely trust that on reflection the Government will see the matter in the same light, and that they will recommend the Committee to adopt, and that the Committee will adopt —at any rate—the principle of this Amendment. In that hope I beg to move it.

I agree with my hon. Friend that this is an Amendment of the very highest importance. Indeed it goes to the whole root of the question, as to whether this is a Bill setting up the commencement of what is to be a federal system. I cannot but regret that so few Members in all the parties in the House take an interest in this subject, which is of such vital importance. The truth of the matter is that this subject is much more important when you look into it in its consequences than it is merely on the surface. My hon. Friend the Mover of the Amendment has very accurately stated—according to my view—and I think he has an unanswerable argument—that the whole question, the whole effect, of federalism is where the residue of the power remains. If you delegate to subordinate Parliaments certain questions, they are bound absolutely by the questions delegated to them, and the Parliament which has delegated them retains supreme control over all else. On the other hand, if you do not delegate to them these powers, but leave them with the residue, reserving to the Imperial Parliament merely certain things, so to speak, abstracted out of the general rights, you are at once establishing two Parliaments with co-ordinate powers. You are inviting friction, and you are inviting, if you get an obstreperous Parliament—and it is highly probable there may be an obstreperous Parliament in Ireland—upon every occasion you are inviting an assertion by what should be the subordinate Parliament to co-equal or greater powers—having regard to the manner in which you frame your Bill—by the Parliament that you have set up.

Over and over again I have expressed the view—I expressed it on the Second Reading—that once you establish a system of this kind, in which the residue of power of legislation in general is given away by this Parliament and not retained in it, there is no end to the demands which may be set up. In my belief, if these Irish Parliaments ever bring about that unity which so many people here talk about, without knowing what it means, if ever they come to demand further powers or separation, there is no possible way, in the way in which you are framing your Bill, that you can avoid that. I say here—and I shall be glad to have it on record if anybody ever takes the trouble to read it hereafter—that my firm belief is, knowing Ireland as well as I do, that in the end this Bill is going to mean the separation of Ireland from England. You may say you will never allow that. You will not be able to prevent it. Once you have set up Parliaments with unlimited powers there is no way in which you can prevent the Parliaments putting forward further demands, and ultimately, if they so desire, having separation. If to-morrow the Dominion Parliaments demanded separation, does anybody lay it down that you are to conquer them and hold them by force? Not at all. You could not do it, because if you have given them this full autonomy it is only by their goodwill that you can in any wise expect them to remain. That is all very well as regard the Dominions. It is different with a country 14 or 15 miles from your own shores. It is a matter that this country may well weigh as to how far they are going, and in what direction they are leading, by the manner in which the Bill is drafted. Do not think this is a drafting point. Do not think this is merely what is so often sneered at here, "a lawyer's criticism!" There is a profound reality at the basis. Let us, at all events, do what we are doing with our eyes open.

My hon. Friend, who certainly has given complete consideration to this question—and there is, if I may say so, no man more competent in this House to do so —referred to the American constitution. He has referred to the Australian Constitution, and in both these cases it is quite true, and the argument may be used against me, that the residue of power is left in the States which compose the union, in one case the American union, and the other the Federal Parliament in Australia. The reason of that is that these constitutions were brought about by a union of independent States in both those places. That, remember was a step where the momentum was in favour of union and that momentum has never stopped, and it still progresses. In America and Australia you will find from day to day more and more power is conceded to the central authority, and by degrees, in various methods, the powers of the States are necessarily, for the benefit of the whole community, more and more contracted. In Canada you are not dealing with independent States, but with a whole which had no such rights, and there, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, you did it by a process of delegation, as he proposes here, but retaining in the Dominion Parliament the full residue of power in legislation, and the whole direction of the affairs of the Commonwealth.

What you are doing here I venture to think has never been done before in any constitution, because you are giving away this residue of power, and the vice of that is that, contrary to the cases of America and Australia, the whole momentum is in favour of separation and not in favour of union, and consequently it is exactly the reverse proposition. You will never be able to stop or change that momentum. If I were not taking up the time of the House too much, I could give examples as to the way in which these Parliaments can crush out anything that they desire. When you set up a Parliament of this kind, which can claim everything that is not reserved, they can absolutely stop the whole functions of Government by simply saying, "We are not in favour of this, that, and the other that you are doing, and we decline to go on." What would happen then? The Prime Minister may resign and no other Prime Minister may take his place, and what is to happen then? There is and can be no solution of it, because you have given everything to that Parliament except the matters which you have reserved in those other Clauses. This is what I have argued many times, and I should have thought, if ever there was a country in which the creation of these Parliaments should be made by a process of delegation and devolution, it was Ireland, because you can do it by degrees.

You can, for instance, take either all, or some, or more than the matters which have been put forward by my hon. and gallant Friend, and you can delegate them to these Parliaments, and you can see how these Parliaments are going to work them. Are they going to work them in a business-like way for the benefit of the community generally, or are they going to abstain from working them with a view to making the system of government impossible? Everything must depend for the working of these Parliaments upon the bonâ fides of the men who are working them, and if ever there was a country where you want to test the bonâ fides by gradual development and devolution it is Ireland. I have always thought that the greatest mistake made by Mr. Gladstone in 1885, when he first started surrendering to the Irish party in this House, was that he did not commence by the smaller process and try Ireland, and see how they went on. Had he done so probably by this time you might have expanded those powers very largely by degrees, and you might have educated the people up to the work of these important questions which are to a very large extent removed from all political feeling, and by degrees you might have brought about common work upon the part of all persons in Ireland for the good of that unfortunate country. Instead of that, Mr. Gladstone commenced by setting up this system of making not really a subordinate Parliament at all, except in a sense, because this House, although there is a provision in Clause 69 by which this Parliament remains supreme, we know perfectly well, having once granted this Parliament, the British Parliament cannot interfere with the Parliament set up in Ireland. I believe myself that that was the fatal mistake in the original idea of setting up this Government in Ireland.

I do not imagine for a moment that the Government are going to accept this proposal. I wish they were. I have urged this until I have wearied many people, but I do think that this is very much more a British than an Irish question. At all events, whether I was right or wrong, I have for the last 35 years, since the first Home Rule Bill, done everything in my power to look at this as a British question as well as an Irish question, because nothing will ever persuade me that either the interests of my own country or yours can be separated in regard to questions which must affect the general good of both. We have gone on and fought this controversy and done our best, and all that we have ever received—I take Ulster, for instance —in trying to keep up this British connection and to keep up as close as possible an interest between our country in the North of Ireland and this country, all we have ever been told, "that is the most unreasonable course you could possibly pursue, and you would be doing far more good if you were willing to throw in your lot with the Nationalists." Now you are turning us out. It is your act, not ours. Even Unionists at many times have had reasons for getting disheartened for endeavouring to stay on, but now you are turning us out in your own interest. I say that real statesmanship in the solution of this question would be to adopt this Amendment of my hon. Friend to do the thing by degrees and retain in this Parliament that residue of power which alone, in my opinion, can prevent the ultimate separation of the two countries.

I agree with my hon. Friend who moved this Amendment that it is really an extremely important one and not a drafting Amendment. It asked the House to choose between setting up subsidiary Parliaments and endowing them with powers. There is the method adopted by this Bill and the one which has been described by my hon. Friend. My hon. Friend seems to think that there was some inconsistency between the action of the Government in adopting this form and the speeches the Government have put forward in support of this Bill as a measure which was capable of fitting in with a federal system. What w e said was that this was the acid test of centrifugal federalism. I may explain that the acid test was that the residue of power should remain in the delegating authority. I am prepared to accept that as the test. Does not the residue of power in this case, in the provision we have made, remain with the delegating authority? I think it does. We have in Clause 69 retained for ourselves the following power:

"Notwithstanding the establishment of the Parliament of Southern and Northern Parliament, or the Parliament of Ireland, or anything contained in thins Act, the supreme authority of the Parliament of the United Kingdom shall remain unaffected and undiminished over all persons, matters and things in Ireland and every part thereof."

That is a most definite reservation of supreme power. It is no answer to say that, notwithstanding that reservation, this is a power that you could never put into operation. My right hon. and learned Friend (Sir E. Carson) said that, notwithstanding Clause 69, the reservation to the Central Parliament of the supreme authority is a reservation which you can never put into operation.

I never said that. What I did say was that once you had set up a Parliament, and you had a residue of power, it would be very un- likely that you would interfere, and the less you interfered the more you would be likely to avoid friction.

I am content to take what the right hon. Gentleman has said. There is power reserved to the Imperial Parliament. What is really the choice is this: How are you going to set out the powers you intend should be exercised by the subordinate body? That is the whole question.

It is perfectly true that an attempt was made to do it, but has the hon. Member any experience as to how that is working? I do not pretend to have had much experience as to how it is working, but I have here an extract from a celebrated Judgment by Lord Watson who has had experience of the working of that Act. This is what he says:

"The world is not big enough to hold the hook which would have to be written to contain a precise and exact enumeration of all the things relating to the complexity of human affairs which you could not or did not mean to hand over to any legislative assembly."

But now my hon. Friend is trying to enumerate that which is to be handed over. Does he think really that in the list he has put in his Amendment he has in fact given to the subordinate Parliament all the powers that are necessary for them—

I particularly said you could add to them or detract from them. As a matter of fact, I took the list from the Prime Minister himself.

I took down what my hon. Friend said, because I was so impressed with what he did say. He told the Committee he was "not vain enough to put any store by the list he had actually put in his Amendment." Here is an Amendment he puts down to be quite seriously discussed, and to be proposed in an extremely able and interesting speech by himself, and then, after he has considered perhaps a second time after putting the Amendment on the Paper whether the list is really workable or practicable, he says, "I am not vain enough to set any store by that list; if you do not like it, you can add to it." He also says, "It is not my list at all, it is a list I took from the speech of the Prime Minister in introducing the measure."

But was the Prime Minister at that time attempting to enumerate the powers which would be delegated to the subordinate Assembly? No, he was telling the public in broad general terms the class of powers which these Parliaments were going to possess. It is the very difficulty of definition which has caused us to adopt the method we have adopted. If you are to put into Acts of Parliament speeches by Prime Ministers, legislation will become extremely simple, but that is not what can be done. What you have to do is to attach a precise meaning to words which would enable those who are going to carry out the legislation to know exactly what powers they have got.

But it is subject to the overriding power we have maintained over concurrent legislation. Let me pursue the powers which my hon. Friend has not put into the Bill. For example he has not included the Poor Laws at all.

Quite so, but then comes in the quotation I have just read about the large book which will be necessary if we are to include all the conditions. But one of the first things the subordinate Parliaments would be entitled to attend to would be the local poor law, yet that is omitted from this list, as are, indeed, all local government powers except those of health and education. My hon. Friend has omitted the regulation of relations between employers and employed he has also omitted banking and commerce and the company laws. I do not want to go through the long list of emissions.

That is a phrase which must be put into precise language if you are going to define what powers Parliament is to have. My hon. Friend asks the Government to accept an Amendment which he puts on the paper, and no one, either in this Parliament or in either of the other Parliaments, would know what were really the powers provided for. If you are going to try and enumerate the powers which these Chambers have got you must make a precise and exact enumeration, but if on the other hand we proceed in the way we propose in this Bill the number of powers to be reserved being so many fewer, we can in fact enumerate them and we have done so. After all it is a question of the balance of advantages. I remember very well that in previous Home Rule discussions those of us who were not supporting the measure under consideration sought to get an enumeration of powers, and the answer was always that it was impossible to give it. Now I have had to spend some time in the practical duty of trying to find out what you can enumerate for the purposes of this Bill, and I have come to the conclusion that you cannot do it; therefore I am not able to accept the Amendment of my hon. Friend.

The speech to which we have just listened fills me with a certain amount of despair. We were told yesterday that the Government had a well-thought-out scheme of federalism, but it is obvious that my right hon. Friend has given no serious thought to the subject of Federalism, and is still ignorant upon it. My right hon. Friend apparently does not see that his arguments about complexity and distinctions, no doubt very important considerations, cut both ways. We are now dealing with the complexities of human government, and, whether you cut things out or put them in, in both cases your category is insufficient to cover the oversights in the case of either the central or the local Parliament. Whatever the measure of your error, if you adopt the system in this Bill, what you overlook you will give to the local Parliament, but if you adopt the plan of my hon. Friend what you overlook will be retained by this Parliament. I should have thought that, when trying such a very hazardous experiment—an experiment in which the Government have indeed very little confidence so far as the local Parliament to be set up is concerned—it would only be common prudence to say that everything we do not expressly give to the local Parliament shall remain with the Central Parliament, not of course necessarily for ever, but at any rate you should retain in the hands of this House the power of deciding whether these matters shall or shall not be handed over to the local Parliament.

My right hon. Friend says that this was the course followed in previous Home Rule Bills. But all those Bills took their origin in Mr. Gladstone's original Bill, which never pretended to be a federal Bill, or part of a well-thought-out scheme of federalism. What it did pretend to do was to imitate the relations between Austria and Hungary and between Norway and Sweden. It proceeded, on a wholly different theory, to create Ireland a nationality holding certain relations with Great Britain, and under the supremacy of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. It was not a federal system at all, although in 1886 Mr. Gladstone did contemplate extending the federal plan over the whole United Kingdom. Does the Government think that this list of exclusions would be satisfactory if we were dealing with a complete federal system for the whole of the United Kingdom? I venture to say that if it were left to local Parliaments to decide these matters in their own way, it would afford an opportunity for conflict between them so considerable that it strikes one even at the outset, when you look at it in the abstract, as being a most imprudent method for the Government to pursue. Look at the class of exclusions and it will be found how considerable will be the difficulty. One of the things which the Government propose to stop is the raising of a volunteer force, and the provision is that the subordinate Parliaments are not to have power to make laws in respect of again, the Clause that relates to trade. It reads:

This is an immensely complicated provision, and it would, be very difficult to define the expression of "trade with any place out of the part of Ireland within their jurisdiction". What does it mean? The words "the exercise of the powers of taxation" might control trade, and I would have thought that that by itself was very highly complicated. But if you proceed the other way, if you put in certain things, it will be a matter for the local Parliament to prove their case, and I believe the adoption of that course would be immensely more prudent. It is inevitable that you should use highly complicated language. If you have to show that a particular thing falls without the complicated provision, that is difficult; but if you proceed in the form of my hon. Friend's Amendment and leave it to the local Parliament to show that their proposal falls within the complicated language, you have all the advantage of obscurity on your side, and you have also the advantage of the complexity of language. But if you are called upon to show that the words you use prevent them from taking a particular course, then the advantage of complexity and obscurity of definition passes to them. The Government are proceeding on very hazardous ground. They do not deny that they anticipate that the first Southern Parliament would be profoundly hostile to this country. Is it reasonable and prudent, then, to leave this ambiguity as an advantage of that hostile Parliament? To me it seems unwise to do it. In the case of the United States, it was precisely because the States were made sovereign bodies under the original Constitution that brought about Civil War in America. The States were theoretically sovereign States; at any rate, that was the idea of some jurists, and Civil War as a result broke out. The only way in which it is possible to make things safe is, in my opinion, by assigning definite powers to the local body and retaining the rest for the Imperial Parliament. When I am told about the supremacy Clause, that, of course, applies both to the excluded and to the not excluded powers. Whichever way you do it, there is an absolute supremacy, in theory, over the whole function of government. That extends to the Dominions, though we never exercise it. It extends theoretically to the whole British Empire. It is honeycombed by the precedents of practical independence which we have allowed to the Dominions. If you are going to rely merely on the ultimate supremacy of Parliament, you are relying on what is really a revolutionary expedient. We could use that ultimate supremacy if these local parliaments acted in a manner which justified us in proceeding to extremes, and no doubt, in that case, an Act of the Supreme Parliament might be passed over the heads of the local parliaments, as a revolutionary measure. In all ordinary government, however, you must abide by the categories you set up; you must work the provisions you have laid down in the Bill. Otherwise, the Government would not have been at the pains of making a category of exclusion. The safest course is to retain with the sovereign Imperial Parliament here in London all that you do not expressly give away, and leave only to the local parliaments what you set out in language as definitely to be given to them.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn made a very impressive speech, which was rather disconcerting to many of us who supported the Second Reading of this Bill, not uninfluenced by the fact that the Ulster party did not oppose it. As I understand the right hon. Gentleman, he rather endorses the application of historical analogy dealt with in the speech of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Marriott). That analogy, however, is rather misapplied. We, of course, can appreciate the vesting of the residual powers in the case of diverse states delegating to a central authority, as distinguished from a central authority delegating to diverse states, but I would submit that that is hardly the comparison here. As I construe the intentions of the Government under this Bill, I rather thought they were something like this: They compare the position of Ireland in this Union with the position, say, of England and Scotland. In the case of England and Scotland, both countries had enjoyed the stage of nationhood before they merged into a union. Ireland, however, whatever her claim may be, has never enjoyed that stage of nationhood, and has been absorbed into the Union despite that. I rather took it from this Bill that we are not seeking to go to Australia or America for an example, but are treating Ireland as sui generis in politics, treating her needs as separate and distinct; and that, coincident with her place in the union, we wished to give her an opportunity of enjoying the stage of nationhood which hitherto she has not enjoyed. I quite recognise that, as the Noble Lord (Lord H. Cecil) has said, it is a most hazardous experiment to give a people an opportunity of exercising powers as a nation while at the same time retaining them in this Parliament; but, baying supported the Second Reading of the Bill, and having done so in the absence of any opposition from the Ulster Members, I do not see how those who supported the Bill then can object to the Clause as it stands now. That Clause carries out much more effectively the idea of giving Ireland a kind of nationhood that the Clause would do which is proposed by the hon. Member for Oxford. For that reason, I think that those who support the Amendment must agree that we who take a different view are justified, in the sense that we are consistent, despite the fact that we recognise that the future may prove that this measure has been so hazardous that we shall be faced by one or other of these alternatives—either that Ireland must be allowed a complete state of independence, or the central Parliament here for its own protection must exercise its supreme power.

The hon. Member who has just spoken, in common with every Member of this House, admits that we are making a vague and great experiment, which it is trusted may not be a dangerous experiment. Does anyone in this House not view with apprehension the possible exercise by the Southern Parliament of the powers which we propose to give it, or, indeed, of any powers which we propose to give it? If that be so, is it not essential that that Southern Parliament should know beforehand, when it is set up, as distinctly as it can know, what powers it is going to be allowed to exercise? If it is important to them, surely it is more important for us, that their powers should be defined, and that we should know what powers are to be granted to them. The closest analogy to what we are doing to-day is to be found, I venture to think, in what was done in Canada in 1867. The British North America Act has now been in operation for over fifty years, and that it has succeeded extraordinarily well no one would deny. There has been no practical demand for alteration of that constitution. Upon what basis was that constitution granted? It was granted on an exact analogy to the Amendment now before the House. The Central Parliament delegates certain definite powers to the subordinate Parliament, and it takes certain powers to itself. How did my right hon. Friend (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) try to meet the case of that British North America Act? He did so, I venture to think, in a manner which was hardly worthy of his sagacity and ability. The only way in which he controverted the analogy of Canada was by quoting a phrase of Lord Watson, which tells at least as much against the proposal of the Government as against the proposal embodied in this Amendment. If I recollect the words rightly, what Lord Watson said was that it was impossible to define with accuracy all the powers—either those which you desire to delegate or those which you desire to retain. That is true. But if it is impossible to define accurately the powers which you desire to retain, what becomes of my right hon. Friend's argument? You cannot get this House to define the powers which by this Bill it is desired to retain, and therefore it is no use quoting Lord Watson or anyone else. It is a difficult thing to do with perfect accuracy, whether you grant powers by way of delegation or whether you reserve them to the Central Parliament.

We have to consider the case really on its merits. Here we have a central Parliament, and we desire to set up a subordinate Parliament. We should be acting, not only against the Canadian analogy, but against all sound constitutional principles, if we granted to these new, untried Parliaments powers of which we do not know the extent, and the extent of which we cannot even attempt to define. If that is true generally, when you are setting up new Parliaments, what about doing it in the present state of Ireland, knowing, as we do, that, unless Southern Ireland alters fundamentally, it will do its utmost to abuse the powers, whatever they are? Therefore I venture to say that we should be acting unfairly to the new Parliaments in Ireland, and we should be acting with recklessness as regards our own country, unless we define as clearly and as definitely as may be those powers which we desire to delegate, and embody them in the Bill. Then both we in this Parliament and the Parliaments set up in Ireland will know exactly where we are, and will not be left in the state of uncertainty in which the Bill leaves us.

I think the right hon. Gentleman who spoke for the Government hardly, as my hon. and learned Friend has just said, did justice to a case the vital importance of which has been so well expressed by my right hon. Friend beside me (Sir E. Carson). We are, in this Amendment, discussing a principle of vast constitutional magnitude, and the right hon. Gentleman, in his reply for the Government, fell back upon arguments which really were not worthy of the occasion. He said that it would be impossible to define the powers which are to be given to an Irish Parliament. Has it not been possible to define those powers in the British North America Act, at any rate sufficiently to have justified that Act as having established one of the most successful federations which have ever been established in the course of the world's history? Those are not the real reasons why the Government have fixed upon this plan of dealing with the question, and nobody knows it better than the right hon. Gentleman himself. The real reasons are that the provisions of the old Home Rule Bills were based upon the provisions which are now in this Bill —and why? Because there was no intention of setting up a federal system; because those Home Rule Bills were a sop to the demands of Irish nationality. It is for that reason that this Bill is framed in the way in which it is framed, and not as it should be framed if it were a proper federal measure. The Noble Lord (Lord Hugh Cecil) stated that it was largely the granting of the residual powers to the State Parliaments which gave rise to the American Civil War. Let me ask the Committee to imagine for a moment what some of those residual powers might be under this Act. We have only to look at Clause 4 itself to get an idea of what they might do. In that Clause you have wireless telegraphy and aerial navigation reserved as Imperial services. The world is progressing so quickly that, clearly, there may be other subjects of a similar kind which may arise through future inventions, and which it would be desirable to reserve to the Imperial Parliament. The very fact that those two matters are put in Clause 4 shows the great danger that may arise. In these days we hear a lot about Devolution. Whether anything is coming of it or not, neither I nor anyone else in this Committee can say, but, at any rate, there is to-day, more than there was at the time when we last discussed Home Rule, a feeling that a federal solution may be the best and most proper for the government of these islands. I have not yet read the Report of the Devolution Committee; but did that Committee recommend that residual powers should be granted to Scotland, Wales and England? Of course it did not, and everybody knows quite well that when in this Bill you propose to leave residual powers to the subordinate Parliaments, you are rendering impossible and unattainable what the Government professes to have so much at heart, namely, a proper federal system in these islands. I agree with my right hon. Friend that this is primarily a British question. It does not concern me as an Ulster Member, but it concerns me as a Member who feels strongly about the future of our country and our Empire. Now that we are making this great experiment, and setting up the Government which is to be given to Ireland under this Bill, I ask the Committee to think twice and three times before they pass this Clause 4 in the form in which it now is. Under this Clause there may come, in the future, difficulties for this country in the way that difficulties arose in the past with the United States, difficulties which will test the utmost resources of this country to overcome.

I think that the Government are placing rather too hard a test on the loyalty of some of us who have stood by them throughout the hole course of this Bill. We were returned to this House committed to a policy—which we understood to be, and I still understand it as far as I am committed, in the words of the Government themselves—a policy for the better government of Ireland. In this Clause there is not, so far as I can understand it, one word which has to do with the better government of Ireland. The whole Clause tells the Irish people what they may not do. That may be one way of governing them in a better manner, to tell them powers that they are lacking, but surely, if you find yourselves, as you do to-day, up against almost insuperable difficulties as regards the government of Ireland, and if you wish to devolve upon them some powers so that they may carry on their Government in a better way, the right way to do that is to dole out to them certain methods and measures of power under which they can definitely act, as you have done in your own Dominions. Having doled out those powers to them, you will be able to see whether they conduct their own affairs in a better way than you are doing it yourselves, and then, if you wish, you can increase the measure of those powers which you have given them. I simply rose at this moment to point out very clearly to the Government that, so far as I understand the position to-day, the whole Bill is really a step in the line of devolution. It is a step which has to be taken rather more quickly than need be otherwise because of the present state of Ireland; but it is a step taken because, at the present time, the affairs of the nation in the House of Commons have become so overwhelming in their size and extent that we have got to set up some kind of institution to allow the various parts of Great Britain to deal with their own concerns. That being the position as I understand it, I ask the Government not to force this Clause on the Committee at the present time, but, if they can possibly do so, to recommit it, and to reconsider whether it would not be better if, in their own words, they are going to have a Bill for the better government of Ireland, to lay down clearly in that Bill in what respects they think the Irish can govern themselves best.

I am quite sure the Committee will believe me when I say that the very last thing the Government want to do is to overstrain, as my hon. and gallant Friend has just remarked, the loyalty of those hon. Gentlemen who have been good enough consistently to support us, not only on this Bill, but on other occasions. My Noble Friend the Member for Oxford University (Lord H. Cecil) has more than once suggested that the statement which I made, that we have given very careful and prolonged consideration to a federal scheme, was not true.

No. I said it had not been well thought out. There may have been a very great deal of thought, but not good thought.

It is quite easy to make interruptions of this kind, but what the Noble Lord's statement came to was that the statement I had made was not true. After all, to say that a question is not well thought out is a matter of opinion. My Noble Friend can get what satisfaction he likes from the repetition of this statement. My hon. Friend appealed to me or to the Government, not to press this proposal, but to recommit the Clause. That is a suggestion which I am bound, on the part of the Government, to resist. It seems to me that if the forecasts of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Duncairn are well founded, and if you are going to have these bitter conflicts between the Imperial and subordinate Parliaments; if, above all, the local Parliament is going, whatever powers you confer upon it, to insist—as my Noble Friend suggested in regard to the armed volunteers—upon taking other powers, that it does not matter what you put into the Act of Parliament. The remedy is one alone, and if this be true no statutory powers will prevent it. It does not matter whether you adopt a policy of enumeration, which is the policy of the hon. Gentleman, or the policy we have adopted, that of exception. If you seriously mean, as you decided by an overwhelming majority on the Second Reading, to make this great experiment and to set up these local Parliaments in the North and the South of Ireland, this must be there; and it seems to me that there is only one way in which you can possibly deal with the difficulty that arises, and that is by the use of physical force to protect those rights which you think are essential to the existence of this United Kingdom and this Empire. The right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn made a reference to Canada. In the discussions we have had on Devolution and Home Rule it has always been admitted that if one of our great Dominions decided to leave the Empire we could not step in to prevent it, but the same has never been admitted in regard to Ireland. The Prime Minister, speaking on this very question, said that he would fight to the last gasp in order to prevent the separation of Ireland from England. That is the view we all hold. Why? Because, as my right hon. and learned Friend said, this is a British question and not a purely Irish one.

I do not expect those who ridicule the Government or myself to believe it, but when we were discussing a possible measure of local government for Ireland, and also a possible federal scheme, we were not actuated, as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Antrim suggested just now—I can assure him he is entirely mistaken—we were not governed in any way by the precedent of the Act of 1914 or the previous proposals for dealing with Home Rule. We approached this question from an absolutely new point of view. As a matter of fact, when the first Committee, on which I sat two years ago, was dealing with this question, the difference between enumeration and exception was not really before us. It arose at a later stage, and it was actually when I came to examine the proposal for a Federal plan myself—I actually had a Federal scheme drawn up—that I began to appreciate the difficulties which attend upon what is called the enumeration plan—which is my hon. Friend's. I found, amongst other things, in the course of my examination—I would call them my studies, but I am afraid that my Noble Friend would ridicule any such pretension on my part, but even in my investigations—a very difficult question connected with the preparation of the Act of 1914. It did not come from the Government, but from another source altogether—the draughtsmen. I found that they had attempted to do that at that time, and that they found the task of enumeration in that case to be impracticable. It has been suggested—I do not venture to put my own opinion against that of much abler men than myself—and I hold this view very strongly, that if you condemn enumeration as applied to the superior Parliament you have got to choose between two forms. If you condemn enumeration as applied to the subordinate Parliament it will therefore automatically follow that it must be condemned when applied to the superior Parliament. I approached the question rather with an inclination in the direction of enumeration. I had studied the Canadian system on the spot, and had had the opportunity of discussing it with a great many Canadian Ministers, both of the Federal and the Provincial Parliaments, and on the whole, I think, when I came first to its study was inclined rather to enumeration. What was the process of enumerating the powers that had to be reserved? What did we cover in this particular case? We laid out the powers that we thought ought to be reserved to the Imperial Parliament. We consulted every authority, including my own Department, the Admiralty, the Army, and the Air Force. All these reservations were before them for a long period of time, during which they were called upon by the Government to examine and test them in every way and to be satisfied that they were sufficient from their point of view. That is a very important consideration. They have been examined by all the other representatives and branches of the Government, as, for instance, the head of the law, and so on, and I believe they are complete. My hon. and gallant Friend just now said, however, "you have got your wireless telegraphy." Something else may take its place which ought to be included. That is al very good reason for adding words to the reserve Clause which would give protection. But I assure the Committee that all suggestions that we were prejudiced and that we were governed by what had happened on previous Bills are really without foundation. It may be true, as has often been suggested by one or two of my hon. Friends on this side of the House, that we have miserably failed in preparing our Bill. It may be true that we have been very stupid. My Noble Friend (Lord H. Cecil) has hinted at that more than once. But he must not take me as a sample of the whole Committee who had to inquire into it. I happen to be in charge of it now, but others, whose brains will compare very favourably even with his, were members of that Committee, and, though it may be true that we have failed in producing a perfect article, I maintain that we have produced a practical scheme which proposes to set up a workable form of self-government, and that we have really been guided both by past experience and by all the precedents we have been able to examine. It is obvious that the Government must be responsible for the proposals they make, and we must defend them, as we have done, to the best of our ability, and, when we believe they are right in themselves, we must ask the Committee to adhere to them. No one regrets more than I do having to ask hon. Members who honestly hold other views to support the Government in a time of difficulty on a crucial occasion like the present. If I could consistently have given way I would gladly have done so, but I take consolation from this conviction, that I hold very strongly, that the dangers before us are not so great as some people anticipate. If they turn out to be right and I am wrong, all I can say is that no brain work put into this Bill will guard you against those difficulties. You will have to deal with them in a totally different way. On these grounds I ask the Committee to reject the Amendment and to support the Government.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out to the word "Lieutenant" in Sub-section (1, I) stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 191; Noes, 41.

Division No. 123.]

AYES.

[7.35 p.m.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Neal, Arthur

Ainsworth, Captain Charles

Green, Albert (Derby)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Armitage, Robert

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Nicholson, Reginald (Doncaster)

Astbury, Lieut.-Commander F. W.

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Atkey, A. R.

Greer, Harry

Ormsby-Gore, Captain Hon. W.

Baldwin, Stanley

Gregory, Holman

Palmer, Lieut.-Colonel G. L.

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Greig, Colonel James William

Parker, James

Barnett, Major R. W.

Hacking, Captain Douglas H.

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Barnston, Major Harry

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Perkins, Walter Frank

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

Benn, Com. Ian H. (Greenwich)

Haslam, Lewis

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Hayward, Major Evan

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Betterton, Henry B.

Henderson Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Pratt, John William

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Hennessy, Major J. R. G.

Preston, W. R.

Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil)

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Blair, Major Reginald

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Purchase, H. G.

Borwick, Major G. O.

Hinds, John

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Breese, Major Charles E.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Ramadan, G. T

Bridgeton, William Clive

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Brittain, Sir Harry

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple)

Britton, G. B.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Remer, J. R.

Brown, Captain D. C.

Hudson, R. M.

Remnant, Colonel Sir James F.

Bruton, Sir James

Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

Richardson, Sir Albion (Camberwell)

Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H.

Hurd, Percy A.

Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hurst, Lieut.-Colonel Gerald B.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Jephcott, A. R.

Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)

Carew, Charles Robert S.

Jesson, C.

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Carr, W. Theodore

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Casey, T. W.

Johnson, L. S.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Chadwick, R. Burton

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Seddon, J. A.

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Lianelly)

Seely, Major. General Rt. Hon. John.

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Shaw, Hon. Alex. (Kilmarnock)

Colvin, Lieut.-Colonel Richard Beale

Kidd, James

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Steel, Major S. Strang

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Stephenson, Colonel H. K.

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Lloyd, George Butler

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.)

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Sugden, W. H.

Dawes, Commander

Lorden, John William

Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C.

Dennis, Edmund R. B. (Oldham)

M'Donald, Dr. Bouverie F. P.

Sutherland, Sir William

Doyle, N. Grattan

McLaren, Hon. H. D. (Leicester)

Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

Edge, Captain William

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Taylor, J.

Edwards, John H. (Glam., Neath)

Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

Macquisten, F. A.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West).

Falcon, Captain Michael

Martin, Captain A. E.

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell. (Maryhill)

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Mildmay, Colonel Rt. Hon. F. B.

Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Mitchell, William Lane

Tickler, Thomas George

Forrest, Walter

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Vickers, Douglas

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Moore, Major-General Sir Newton J.

Waddington, R.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Morrison, Hugh

Walters, Sir John Tudor

Galbraith, Samuel

Morrison-Bell, Major A. C.

Ward-Jackson, Major C. L.

Gardiner, James

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Waring, Major Walter

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross)

Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H.

Gilbert, James Daniel

, Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.

White, Charles F. (Derby, Western)

Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde)

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Wigan, Lieut.-Colonel John Tyson

Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak)

Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Yate, Colonel Charles Edward

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Yeo, Sir Alfred William

NOES.

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Nall, Major Joseph

Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

Gretton, Colonel John

Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Oman, Charles William C.

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Rankin, Captain Dames S.

Brown, T. W. (Down, North)

Harris, Sir Henry Percy

Reid, D. D.

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Hills, Major John Waller

Stewart, Gershom

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Hood, Joseph

Whitla, Sir William

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Williams, Lt.-Corn. C. (Tavistock)'

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Winterton, Major Earl

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitching)

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Wolmer, Viscount

Chamberlain, N. (Birm.. Ladywood)

Lindsay, William Arthur

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Cockerill, Lieut.-Colonel G. K.

Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)

Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

Lynn, R. J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Davies, Major D. (Montgomery)

M'Guffin, Samuel

Mr. Marriott and Major O'Neill.

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Moles, Thomas

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—[ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]

I rise not to oppose the Motion, but to make an appeal to my hon. Friend in the Committee which I have already made to him in private, that the Bill will be taken again on the day on which it is set down. On the last occasion on which it was set down, which was one day early in this week, it was at a moment's notice put off till a later date. This is a Bill in which a limited number of hon. Members take the greatest interest. Many of them have made their arrangements to be present during its discussion, and it really is very inconvenient if at one day's notice, the day on which it is to be considered is altered. I understand from a reply given by the Leader of the House to a question from the Leader of the Opposition, that the Bill will be taken on Wednesday and Thursday after we reassemble. I hope my right hon. Friend will assure us either that the Bill is to be taken on that date or on some definite date and, so far as it is possible, to give us an undertaking that the day will not be altered.

The postponement was due to an unforeseen accident which happened last time, but it is the firm intention of the Government to take this Bill on the Wednesday and the Thursday in the week in which we come back.

Question put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Wednesday, 2nd June.

Indemnity Bill (Select Committee)

Major Barnes, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Casey, Mr. Cautley, Brigadier-General Coekerill, Major John Edwards, Mr. Inskip, Mr. Kidd, Mr. Lawson, Mr. Lynn, Mr. Rae, Sir Samuel Roberts, Mr. Thomas, Colonel Wedgwood, and Colonel Penry Williams nominated Members of the Select Committee on the Indemnity Bill:

Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records:

Ordered, That Five be the quorum.— [Colonel Gibbs.]

Government of India Act (Draft Rules)

Ordered,

"That a Select Committee of Seven Members be appointed, to join with a Committee to be appointed by the Lords, to revise the Draft Rules made under The Government of, India Act, 1919."—[ Colonel Gibbs. ]

Message to the Lords to acquaint them. therewith.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That Mr. Acland, Mr. Bennett, Sir Henry Craik, Mr. Montagu, Mr. Ormsby-Gore, Sir J. D. Rees, and Mr. Spoor be Members-of the Committee.—[ Colonel Gibbs. ]

I object to this for the reasons which I gave the other day. In my opinion the Secretary of State should give evidence before this Committee and not be a Member of the Committee. He should not be both counsel, judge and jury. I lodge my protest against the appointment of this Committee and the appointment of the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State as Members of it, and I beg to move, "That the Secretary of State be not appointed."

I would remind the hon. and gallant Gentleman that his protest was more appropriate when it was first made, when the original Committee was appointed to consider the Bill. He then made his protest and the House decided against him. The rules which are to be revised by this Committee are part of the Bill. They arise out of the Bill, and it would be most unfortunate, having regard to the great importance of time, to delay matters by a change in the personnel of the Committee of Gentlemen who have devoted their attention to the rules, who are familiar with all the processes which relate to the rules being framed and incorporated in the Bill itself. I am afraid that I can never convince my hon. and gallant Friend, and therefore I will not go on trying.

Question put, and agreed to.

Ordered, "That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records."

Ordered, "That Three be the quorum." —[ Colonel Gibbs. ]

Private Business having been put down for a Quarter past Eight o'clock, I will now leave the Chair until that time.

Sitting suspended as Ten minuses before Eight o'clock till a Quarter past Eight o'clock.

Public Service (Women)

I beg to move, ing that service on the same terms and being paid the same salaries as men. Before I come to the merits of the question, let me say a word as to the Government position in this matter. Before the last election a Manifesto was issued signed by the Prime Minister and by the Lord Privy Seal which stated that: Service to the Whitley Council, and that Council appointed a Sub-committee to consider the question, which reported in February of this year.

Before I deal with that Report, I want to summarise the principal objections that have been urged against the principle of paying women equally for equal work. The first objection is general in character, and it is that all round woman is a less efficient machine and that she ought to receive a smaller wage in consequence. It is, I think, conceded that where the output of work is measurable, where a woman is employed on piece-work and turns out certain goods, she ought to be paid the same piece-rate as a man; but where the output is not measurable, as in the case of clerical work and work of that sort, there is a general inefficiency of women, and that they ought to be paid less than men. The second argument is that man has more expenses and a bigger family responsibility, that it costs him more to live, that when he is married he stays on in the service, whereas, as a rule, a married woman will leave the public service, and therefore he ought to receive a better wage. The third argument is that if you pay women the same rate as men the tendency will be to bring into the service a different class of women, and you will have a rather difficult position, that causes some friction, of a different sort of woman working alongside a different man. The last argument is that this principle will cut very strongly against w women. who will be the first to suffer, and that their only chance of getting work is to accept smaller pay than men, because if you give them the same pay, they being, it is said, a less efficient sex, they are bound to be excluded by the force of competition. Those are the arguments, and I shall deal with them later.

The Whitley Council was set up for the Civil Service last year, and they appointed a Sub-committee, which issued a very valuable report, and that Report deals with the principles on which women ought to be admitted to the Civil Service and the principles which ought to govern their pay The motion that I have the honour to submit to the House falls into two parts. It asks that women should be given equal opportunities with men, an equal chance of getting into the service, and that when they are there they should be paid the same rate as men. This report reclassifies the Government ser vice and divides that service into four classes. The first or lowest class is that of writing assistants, who do the purely clerical and more or less formal and mechanical work. The second class is the clerical class, which does the higher sorts of clerical work; and the last two classes are the executive and administrative branches, which do the higher grade work of the Civil Service. When we examine the Report on the point of opportunity, as to how far they open the door to women on the same terms as to men, we find this. The writing assistants' class, the lowest and the worst paid of all, and the one which gives least opportunity of promotion, is, as I understand it, confined entirely to women. In the second class, the clerical class, which is the next lowest grade in the service, you have a competitive examination for both sexes, the men being examined at sixteen to seventeen years of age and the women at sixteen and a half to seventeen and a half. I pause here to say that, though that is apparently a concession to women, because the women will be six months older than the men at the examination, and therefore presumably more efficient, its is not an advantage that women want. All they ask is to come in on the same terms as men

When we come to the last two grades, those which really attract the educated men or women, you find that whereas men are to be admitted by open competitive examination, women are to come in chosen by a board of selection. I want, if I can, to put before the House the way that fact is regarded by women. They claim complete equality of opportunity. They do not claim, and never have claimed, that in all professions and trades they are the equal of men, but what they do say is this, that until you have tested them you cannot say they are not, and the only fair test is to admit them on the same terms as men. They say, also, that if an examination chooses the best men or is the best method of recruiting our public service, it follows that it must be the best system also for women. So, at the very start of a woman's career, say, of the highly trained university woman who comes in at the age of 22 to 24, she comes in on different terms to men, and whereas a man has to compete with all his fellows, she comes in by the back door and is chosen by a Board of Selection. Therefore, women will come in by what will be represented as patronage. You may have the most impartial Board of Selection, but once you have a different test and once you say that women are not to compete with men, with a fair field and no favour, you inevitably raise the suspicion of patronage. Not only that, but when she gets into the Civil Service she is not put on the same establishment as men, but she is put upon a separate establishment and is to be promoted inside that establishment. I ask the House to consider this: On the one side you have the man who, after public examination, has been placed on a general list. On the other side there is the wom9,n who has come in by the side door, and is on a separate list. Can anybody say that the status of the woman will be equal to that of the man? I want to get the very best of both sexes into the service of the Crown. I want them to come in on terms that will bring the best out of both. Lastly, when these women come in, burdened as they are by coming in by a certain road—an easier road, perhaps, but a different road from men—they are not in the higher branches paid the same as men. In the administrative and executive branches a woman stops at £300 a year, and a man starts at £300 a year. I know that a good many hon. Members will think that that is all right. I will deal with equal pay in one minute. I have not finished with opportunity yet. Besides laying down a special system for the admission of women, the Government have not opened all opportunities to women in this sense, that the Treasury still reserves the right to say how many women are to go into these Government Departments. Therefore, they say that they cannot admit women equally. Whereas any man who qualifies, and who fulfils the conditions, can go to the Civil Service Commissioners, can claim to sit for examinations, and, if he wins a high place, can choose one of the offices which are most sought after, all that women can do is to come in by means of a Board of Selection, and even then they cannot be certain that they can get into the office they wish. So on both sides the Govern- ment restricts women. They do not let them in freely, and they say that only certain posts will be open to them.

Now comes the question of pay. In the executive class the men start at £400 and rise to 2500; the women start at £300 and rise to £400. Therefore, in these higher posts the women leave off where the men start. I believe that the only possible way of running the thing in the future is on the principle of equality. I do not in the least say that any woman is equal to any job, but I do say that, until you test them, you cannot tell. If experience shows that they cannot do a certain work, the sooner they leave that work and do something else the better. You cannot find that out unless you let them in on equal terms, choose the best and let them go into the offices they select, as far as possible. Until they are tested, they do not admit their inferiority. The doctrine of equality does not mean paying excessive salaries; it means that you have to sort out men and women. I can believe that some professions will be entirely men's professions, and some professions entirely women's professions. A large number will be joint men and women's, and we have got to make a very big step and a very big change, for we have got to find some plan—a very difficult task—of working a big service like the Civil Service of men and women working along side each other. I believe equality is the only possible principle. As soon as you leave it, you get into all sorts of difficulties. The best men must resent being undercut by women, and they will do all they can to keep them out, just because they know they will degrade their wage, and that in the end the wage will sink to that of the cheapest. The system of open competitive examination is certainly not ideal, but it has two qualities that commend it. It is fair, and everybody knows that the one who gets first place can choose the Treasury. If you do not have that test, on what principle are you going to admit women? Who can decide what special work a woman can do? It beats the wit of man. All through the ages people have tried to distinguish men and women, and define the qualities of one and the other, and no one has succeeded. You have failed in the same way.

You must have some principle. Your Boards of Selection will differ from year to year, and that brings me to this argument, which seems small, but really is very important. In men's colleges they know what they have to train for, in order to get into the Civil Service, but how can the women's colleges know? Who can say what qualities the Board of Selections will want? The men's teachers have trained them to pass certain tests, but how can a schoolmistress know how to train her girls for the higher branch of the Civil Service? She may succeed by behaving nicely to middle-aged gentlemen. Who can tell? You will upset the whole educational system, because unless you give the educational authorities some goal to which they can train their students, you have got chaos. The matter does not end there. You will have against you all that is best in the men, and you will be up against the trade union principle of "the rate for the job," which is this: It does not regard the individual efficiency of the worker, but says that when a man or woman attains a certain efficiency, as soon as they have passed a certain standard, they get the standard rate. You cannot discriminate against women without discriminating against men, and I submit the only principle on which you can work either in the Civil Service or elsewhere is to settle payment according to the work done, make your standard as high as you like, but as soon as a man or a woman passes that standard, they get the rate independent of their individual differences. That last argument was especially reinforced during the War. My hon. Friend, who played a very distinguished part as Chairman of the Special Arbitration Tribunal on Women's Wages, will, I know, support me when I say you could not possibly have got women into industry in the large number in which they came unless you had paid them the same rate as men, and for that the men fought, no doubt largely from a wish to protect their own position, but still from a very enlightened self-interest, which was good for the community. You must have the same thing in the profession.

That we should have equal pay is no new idea. It now prevails in many of the occupations that women pursue, in the cotton trade, and others, and in the case of the women lawyers who are now starting, and amongst Members of Parliament. I do say that the Government ought to be a model employer. I do most sincerely hope that when they come to frame Orders in Council they will give attention to this point. I quite agree that the authority of the Whitley Council is a very high one. I would, however, point out that in this Report, while the staffs want equality of opportunity and equal pay, that they only yielded to a discrimination in this matter on condition that the trial was to be over a period of five years, and that, thereafter, the subject would be reconsidered. In conclusion, I do not expect the Government to push the door right open at once. A big change like this we can hardly expect at once. But I do expect them to say that any women who are training with a view to sitting for examination shall be able to claim the right of admission on an equality with men. We also ask that the probationary period should be reduced from five years to two years. Five years shuts out too many young women who are trying to enter the profession; two years is quite long enough in which to test the candidate. Secondly, restrict the numbers of women you admit as much as you like, and their admission in any way you please, but those you do admit, admit on an equality with men. Unless you do that you cannot test them. It is no fair test to put them in an office under a different system of admission, in a different establishment, with different promotion and different pay. We have got to face the future. Equality is held with very deep conviction by a very large number of women in this country. They believe in it with the same fervour as they believed in the freedom which carried the franchise. I hope the Government will see their way to accept what is the underlying principle of the Whitley Report, and what can be read between every line.

I beg to second the Motion.

I am glad my hon. and gallant Friend has brought this matter forward at this particular time. I do think that this House ought now to give a clear lead to the heads of Government Departments generally in regard to this matter. Let me preface my remarks by two observations. One is respecting the Amendment on the Order Paper in the names of two hon. Members opposite, as to preference being given to ex-service men. I think I am speaking for my hon. and gallant Friend as well as myself when I say we are in entire sympathy with that idea, and raise no question whatever against it. I think also, in saying that, I am speaking for the great majority of women in the Civil Service. There is another thing. In asking the Govern- ment to apply the principles for which we are appealing, we do not seek in the slightest degree to urge them to overturn or to supersede the Whitley Council. It is of the greatest possible importance that the prestige of the Whitley Councils should be maintained, and especially that of the Whitley Council which deals with matters in the Civil Service. But, after all, we have got to remember that the Whitley Council consists of two sides. The Whitley Council, and the Committee to which my hon. and gallant Friend referred, is composed of a staff side and of an official side. It is not open to the different sides on the Council to issue different Reports. Therefore, this Report which I hold in my hand is a compromise document. We see, if we turn to paragraph 12 of this important document, that there is a very clear division of opinion amongst the members. Paragraph 12 says, on the matter of recruitment for the higher grades of the Civil Service: wish to know and feel perfectly certain that the general principles of which this House approves are, in fact, being applied.

In the Resolution moved by my hon. and gallant Friend there are really two principles laid down. The first is equality of opportunity. The second is equality of remuneration for equal service. As to the first, it is hardly necessary to remind the House what this House has done in this particular matter. The House of Commons has passed into law this principle:

At the very beginning of a woman's career she finds the door banged and bolted and barred against her in the direction of competitive examination. It may be that the system of competitive examination is bad or that it ought to be taken along with some other method of selection for the Civil Service, but I cannot understand what the position of the Government can be in this matter, because either competitive examination is a right way of selecting civil servants or it is a wrong way. If it is right, clearly it should be applied to both sexes, and if it is wrong it should not be applied at all. I have tried not to approach this question from the point of view of women alone or from the point of view of men alone. My argument is that an advantage will flow to the State itself through casting its net wide enough to secure all the available ability of the country irrespective of sex.

My hon. and gallant Friend has referred to the fact that I had the privilege during the last fourteen months of the War of service as Chairman of the Special Arbitration Tribunal on Women's Wages, and I agree with him that during the War it was impossible to over-estimate the value of the service of women in regard to the output of munitions, and we can scarcely realise how splendid their work was. I believe that without that work it would have been impossible to win the War at all. I think it is important to remember that during the period of the War we advanced very far in the direction of equality in wages. Orders were laid down for the remuneration of women, and those orders had to be applied and supplemented by a special Arbitration Tribunal, and we soon found that although it is very easy to adumbrate a principle like equal pay for equal work, it is very difficult in practice to apply it fairly, and you must have regard to all sorts of considerations which arise in individual cases that come before you, and it is sometimes very difficult not to let go one's grip of the essential value of the principle itself. As my hon. Friend has said, when you have piece-rates the thing is very simple, and the Ministry of Munitions at the start laid down the principle that there should be equal piece-rates for men and women. Where the woman's output is equal to that of the man she gets the same remuneration and the thing is auto- matic. Any other system would be so unfair that it would not be tolerated for a moment. It is when we come to time-rates and salaries that the great difficulty occurs. I remember the horror with which in the Ministry of Munitions and the Ministry of Labour certain decisions, which we gave on the question of women crane drivers was received.

The hon. Member has had some very valuable experience, and perhaps he can tell me whether he was able to arrive at sufficient data in regard to the output of women on piecework as compared with the output of men on similar piece-work, and then apply that to what should be paid to a man and a woman doing similar work on a time arrangement.

Clearly that was the question which occupied us a great deal. Of course it varied between establishment and establishment. There were establishments where we found that the substitution of women for men after a short period resulted in doubling or trebling the output of shells. On the whole, the men, like the women, worked splendidly during the War, but a good deal depended upon the operation. Light shells were turned out in almost equal quantities by men and women, but there was no doubt that after some months of employment on light shells the output of women did tend to fall.

9.0 P.M.

In other industries generally, with regard to women engaged in manual labour, we came to the conclusion, taking the widest general view, that three women were required to do the work of two men. In the case of crane drivers we visited certain large factories, including the Bolckow-Vaughan Steel Works, and we saw women engaged in driving 100-ton electric cranes, and they were driving them magnificently, lifting huge masses and placing them accurately. We cross examined the managers as well as men whose lives were often dependent on the accurate working of the cranes, and they told us there was really nothing to choose between men and women on that class of work. We therefore put our principles into practice and awarded the women the men's time rates. I think to have done anything else would have been unfair to the men and grossly unfair to the women. There were other industries, like those of the women tram conductors, to which we applied the same principle. We found after long and serious discussion that where the work done by women was equal in quantity, quality and efficiency to that done by the men and caused no greater expense to the management, in all fairness their remuneration should also be equal. Of course, where the factors mentioned were lower adjustments had to be made, but they were all applied on the same principle.

Our greatest difficulty came not from private employérs, but from Government Departments, and particularly from the Board of Works. I well remember an occasion when there was a strike about to take place of women lift attendants in Government Departments, I was called into hurried consultation with the First Commissioner of Works, and the question we had to consider was whether the Government would allow this tribunal to apply to Government Departments the principle which had been applied many months before to all other undertakings in the country. We were told by the Ministry of Labour and by certain other Government Departments that to apply the principle of equal remuneration for equal service would be subversive of the whole system of remuneration in the Civil Service. But we did apply it, and I do not think the whole system of remuneration in the Civil Service was subverted. At any rate, I heard no more about that. A great fuss was made by the Government Departments at the time, but I suggest that any system so opposed to every principle of fairness ought to be subverted. The first argument from the Government representative and from employers always was that women had never had the same rates as men in the past. That is what I call a Conservative argument in the worst sense, and it is an argument to which the Arbitration Tribunal paid no attention. In fact, in time it ceased to be put forward.

The second argument which was strongly urged was that women had not the same family responsibilities as men. As a general rule that is true, but sometimes it is not true. I have had before me cases of women engaged in industry who maintained families and often maintained their aged parents. Generally speaking, it is the fact that man has greater family responsibilities than women, but the remuneration of the man on the whole is not conditioned by the existence or extent of his family responsibilities. Take the case of a bachelor. That argument is never used against him, yet if you have a woman to deal with it is at once used against her, not because it is a fair argument, but because she is a woman, and for no other reason. The third argument was, and I venture to prophesy that this may be put up to-night from the Treasury Bench, as to the difficulty of applying the principle. I agree it is difficult, but my experience is that where there is a will there is a way, and if the principle is really conceded and believed in, it can be adjusted to classes of cases without undue difficulty, and the arbitration machinery exists by which that can be done. It is very much against the interests of women to claim equality of pay if their work is not equal in efficiency to that of men. If women are over-paid they will not get employment. If they are underpaid, then it is not only unfair to women; but it is unfair to men, because they are being deprived of a job. Equality of remuneration for equality of work is a principle which is fair both to men and women.

Three propositions are involved in the Motion. Firstly, that all Government Departments should be open to women. Secondly, that the same system of competitive examination which is applied to men should be applied to women also; and, thirdly, no woman should receive a lower rate of remuneration than a man by reason only of her sex One of the great lessons of the War has been to show the value to the State of the services of women. But we have learned another lesson, which I think some people required to learn. One of the principal arguments, and one which, I fear, is still in vogue even on the Treasury Bench, is embodied in the question, What will happen to the family and home if all these careers are open to women? During the War we have discovered that these fears are groundless Unlike my, hon. and gallant Friend, I am old-fashioned enough to believe that the home is the supreme sphere of woman, and that there she finds and exercises her greatest dignity and influence and makes the world most her debtor. But that is no reason for the denial to her of complete equality of opportunity. The existence of a class of fen-tale labour underpaid, and deprived of proper prospects of advancement, is derogatory to women, unfair to men, and a distinct disadvantage to the State. This House has laid down the principle of equality of opportunity, and we are now asking it to affirm its determination that that principle shall be applied, and shall be applied with sympathy and goodwill, in all branches of the public service.

I have listened with great interest to the two speeches which have been made on this motion. Those of us who have sat in this House for many years know how deep and genuine is the interest that the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills) has taken in this subject, and it must be a source of satisfaction to him to see the immense strides that have been made in recent times towards the goal that he has in view. But I would remind the House that it is a very much easier matter to talk about the principles with which all of us to-day are in sympathy than to try to put those principles into action, and it is rather with regard to the putting of these principles into action that I will trespass upon the time of the House for a short time. All hon. Members, even the hon. and gallant Member for Durham, will realise that the employment of women on the terms that he desires means their entrance into a new field altogether, and I feel that we have only within the last few months broken ground, not without success, and we have gone a very long way towards giving him all that he wants, and I believe that by the natural process of evolution he will obtain everything he wants if he will only be a little patient and help us at the stage to which we have attained. What is the point that we have reached to-day? The principal things that we are going to put into practice have never been put into practice before. We have equality of status granted in all grades of the Civil Service and we have equal pay at entrance for all grades, as recommended in the Report.

I think so. And the increments run level for a term of years. The two points which the hon. Members have seized upon and which I think the authors of the Whitley Report knew would be seized upon are the two points in which they failed to go up to the full measure of the hon. and gallant Member's desires. These are the temporary restrictions in the administrative department, the candidates being selected instead of being chosen by examination, and the stopping of the increments at a certain point. Perhaps I may say a few words on these two points. I want to clear away a doubt that may be in the mind of my hon. Friend who seconded the Motion and the minds of some other Members. I gather from the way in which my hon. Friend referred to what he thought was at the back of my mind that he felt there was a feeling of passive resistance on this Bench to this movement, and he seemed to think that the same feeling existed in the staff or a part of the staff, judging by the remarks that he made on the recommendation as a whole on this particular subject. I want to disabuse his mind of that. The Permanent Secretary of the Treasury, who is the administrative head of the Civil Service, is to my knowledge and the knowledge of every man who knows him a man who is genuinely, honestly and keenly anxious to ensure that not only women shall have fair play, but, more than that, that they shall have every opportunity of showing what is in them. My hon. Friend made great play of the fact that at this moment there is opposition to competitive examination for women in the highest division. I take the opposite view. My hon. Friend must know that the recommendation on this subject is temporary, and that the whole subject will come up for revision. But those who know best what administrative work is in the Civil Service and know what the difficulties are, and what chance there is that all the candidates chosen by competitive examination may not be the best people for administrative work, have a feeling that at this moment, when women are on their trial for this particular kind of work, there is more chance of the right woman being chosen by a Selection Board than by letting her go in for a written examination. It has been suggested that someone might slip in by a back door as the result of an examination by a Selection Board. I will not refer to that and I will say nothing about my hon. Friend's pleasantries with regard to the middle-aged man, but I would tell him this, that the Selec- tion Board will subject the candidates to strict competition in this way they will have regard, close regard, to the careers of the women, from their schools and universities, and that would ensure that they should have the necessary capacity in that direction. The examiners would find out, by inquiries that those women that they chose for the first posts should not only be qualified by examination, but should be women of whom it may be predicted, with as much certainty as these things can be predicted, that they would be women of a type who would develop when they come to tackle administrative work. Of course, it is not competent for me, as hon. Members know, to say that this period which is laid down shall be lessened in time, but I am sure that anything that my hon. Friend may have said will be carefully considered by those to whom he indirectly appealed.

A word or two now on the question of pay. The House must remember that, to make the pay level as far as has been recommended, does mean a very large proportional increase to women's pay, and it puts the two sexes, up to a point, on an equality. Although I have had no opportunity of discussing this with the members of the Committee who came to that decision, I think that probably the reason for stopping short after a period of years with a woman's pay is the one to which my hon. Friend alludes, namely, that the man is the potential husband and father, and that, by the time a man's salary begins to go in front of the woman's, he is normally in a position where he has great responsibilities upon him. I admit freely and fully that responsibilities fall on women. Those responsibilities are common to either sex—they may fall alike on a man, whether he is unmarried or not, or on a woman. That responsibility, however, which is certain to come to a man if he marries—and all the best men do marry, or want to—does entail a very considerable increase in the charge upon him.

I must interrupt the hon. Gentleman to correct what I think is a misunderstanding. Women start lower than men. It is not only that they go to the lower rate. If my hon. Friend will turn to page 7 of the Whitley Committee's Report, he will see at the bottom, in paragraph 40, the scale for men and women of the executive class, which is the highest class but one. Men start at £400 and rise to £2500; women start at £300 and rise to £400.

I beg my hon. and gallant Friend's pardon. Of course, I should have noticed that; but I think that what I have said holds good in regard to all the other provisions. I was coming to one other point, which I think ought to be brought to the notice of the House. Of course, we are always being attacked on this Bench, and especially the Department which I have the honour to represent, for throwing great burdens of expenditure on the country. We know, of course, that the proposals, with which the House is familiar, with regard to these salaries, will increase the expenditure on the Civil Service. If complete effect were given, in the letter and in the spirit, in the matter of equal pay, to the present recommendations in the Whitley Committee's Report, and the increments in later years were carried forward equally, it would, according to my advisers, add at least another £6,000,000 to the Estimates; and it would carry in its train similar advances in many other branches of work, the total of which might mean a very serious increase on the Estimates. There is one more point to which my hon. Friend did not call attention, but which I think I ought to mention. I spoke about the difference in salaries, after a period of years, between men and women, and I gave what I believe to be the reason for that. You have always to reckon with human nature. You may pass resolutions about human nature, but human nature remains peculiarly insusceptible to them. If you lay it down that all through the careers of men and women they shall be on an equal basis, it seems to me that inevitably man will rise up and say, "I have no objection to women being paid at that rate, but, after all, I have married, and I have to bring up a family, and I must have more"; and you will have a fresh differentiation springing up as between those who have domestic responsibilities and those who have not. One sees signs of claims of that kind coming, and if it came it would be a troublesome question to deal with.

I have tried to point out what has been done, and what the condition at present is, and I have tried to show that the present condition is far in advance of anything that my hon. and gallant Friend could have hoped for a very few years ago. I want to assure him of the whole-hearted co-operation of the Government in this matter. We are not trying to damp the movement down at all. We want to get the best we can into the Service. We hope and believe that the experimental period on which we are entering will justify a step forward into the region where he would have us dwell, but it is essential to have that probationary period. The whole administration of the Civil Service during recent years has caused great anxiety to the Government and to the Civil Service itself. It has been passing through a difficult time. It has now to face new problems, and, in the Whitley Council which was set up to deal with the terms and conditions of service, a very great stride forward has been made, in bringing together all the servants of the State in their various capacities and grades, and causing them to unite in the common object of improving the conditions of their common service, and making it more efficient for the benefit of their common country. This first Report is a great achievement. Unanimity, possibly by compromise— it is very seldom attained without it—has been attained, and a most valuable Report has been produced. Everything in that Report will be adhered to, and will be carried out in the letter and the spirit, I am convinced, by both sides—the administrative side and the staff side. I think that that should be a matter of warm congratulation by this House. The one thing I fear about my hon. and gallant Friend's Motion, if it be adopted, is lest those who, with much labour and with much good will, have come together as they have, should feel that the House, because in one or two respects, perhaps, it has not come up to everything that is desired of it, have given an expression of opinion antagonistic to some of their work. I suggest that; and I cannot help cherishing a hope that my hon. and gallant Friend who moved this Motion may not press it further to-night, but that, having given the House his views, having heard the views which I have expressed—and which are completely sympathetic to him—in the knowledge that we are moving forward to the best of our ability, and in the knowledge that this valuable Report has been produced jointly by the administrative and the staff sides of our great Civil Service, he will be content to leave it there, on the assurance that everything he has said to-night shall be most carefully weighed and considered.

I beg to move, after the word "authorities" ["all local authorities"], to insert the words

"providing that the claims of the ex-service men are first of all considered."

The hon. Member who seconded the Motion was good enough to say that he had every sympathy with this Amendment, and had no objection to it. I should like also to make my position clear in regard to the Motion. I am entirely in favour of the Motion, with the sole qualification contained in the few words of my Amendment. I am fully pledged to absolute equality for women in all matters; I make no reservations whatsoever, and every time any question has been put in this House which deals with the matter of equality of the rights of women, I have Persistently voted in favour of it. Therefore, there is no question of this Amendment being moved in any sense of antagonism or opposition to the Motion of my hon. and gallant Friend. I think it is necessary that these words should be added, in order to make it quite clear that the claims of ex-service men should first he considered where the question of vacancies and employment in Government service is concerned.

I entirely accept the Amendment. I think it is common ground. to the whole House that ex-service men should have first consideration.

I am much obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend. I am very glad he accepts the Amendment; it will probably facilitate the proceedings considerably, as the discussion can proceed on the widest possible terms. I should like to mention one or two facts which require emphasising in regard to the position of ex-service men, as to the numbers of men and women at present employed in Government service, and as to how far improvements can be effected in the direction of giving ex-service men better consideration than they are receiving at present. On the 27th of February of this year 289,139 ex-service men were unemployed. At the same time, there were 123,861 women employed in Government Departments. Of these, 69,154 were temporarily employed. It will be admitted by everyone that women, above all people, will be the first to acknowledge the prior claims of ex-service men. At the last General Election it used to be considered that if candidates happened to be fortunate enough to have a military title to add to their names, they were assured of success. Whether that were true or not, there is no doubt that the sympathy of the women electorate was very largely on the side of those whom they thought had fought. I do not think there will be any question of rivalry in the claims of women over those of ex-service men, but I want to point to the considerable number of women employed by the Government, some of whom have independent means, whilst of the large number of ex-service men who are out of employment many are married and have family responsibilities. A question was put by the hon. Member for Springburn (Mr. Macquisten) to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions, in which he asked whether certain ladies of independent means were still being employed in that Department while ex-service men were out of employment. The answer was that the cases of a few women employed in the Ministry, who were stated to be of independent means, and probably included those referred to by the hon. Member, were at present being inquired into, with a view, in the event of their being found independent, to replacement by ex-service men or by women who were dependent on their earnings. The assurance in the end of that question is very desirable. But the first part was an admission that there was a case to be inquired into and that there were women of independent means being employed in positions where ex-service men were candidates for the posts. Again, when the temporarily employed ex-service men desired to send a deputation to the Prime Minister I think it is a fact that he declined—I do not know whether for good or other reasons—to receive them, whereas the temporary women servants were more fortunate in their request for a deputation. In all Government work which has been created as the result of the War—and I will give as an instance of the kind of work I mean that at the Ministry of Pensions—priority and absolute precedent ought to be given to the ex-service men. In the Ministry of Pensions, however, 14,325 women are at present employed. I give these facts to show that there is considerable room for improvement in the treatment of ex-service men at the present time.

Another complaint of the ex-service men is that they are not allowed to obtain permanent positions in the Civil Service because of age disability. They claim the right to be absorbed into the permanent Government staffs irrespective of age, and they press for advancement by merit to the higher positions. No doubt an age limit for entrance into the Civil Service is very desirable, but when it is considered that men who have fought in the War have had five years taken out of their lives, and are correspondingly much older than they would have been but for that interegnum, I think, as regards those men at least, that the age limit should be removed, and that they should be given every opportunity of permanent employment in Government offices. It is common agreement that the ex-service men should have priority. I have ventured to put these few facts forward to show that considerable improvement is possible, and so that it may appear that we all agree that the claims of the ex-service men should be taken into consideration.

I beg to second the Amendment.

It is unnecessary for me to go over the ground that my hon. and gallant Friend has travelled, especially in view of the fact that the mover and seconder of the original Motion have agreed to incorporate the Amendment in it. At the same time there may be other hon. Members in the House who may join issue on the question, and therefore there are one or two points to which I should like to draw attention. If the Resolution were carried in the form in which it stands, and without the Amendment, it would in reality place the ex-service men in a worse position than they would have been in 1914. Since 1914 the development of women's work and her sphere has rightly extended very considerably. There are many forms of employment now open to women, and which they are filling very ably, in which in 1914 they were not engaged. Therefore, after the promises we all gave who took part in recruiting that their jobs would be kept for them and jobs would be found for them when they came back, they would find, if the women were to have this preference, that they would be handicapped. Let me give a concrete illustration of what happened in a municipality of which I know something. It was proposed to extend the tramway service, and a resolution was put forward on behalf of those who were keen advocates of the employment of women—which we all are —suggesting that in the engagement of tramway conductors a certain number must be women. It was pointed out that we had many ex-service men out of employment, and that it would be only fair that those men should be employed to the preference of other men and of women before equality of opportunity in this new work was given to women. I think the mover and seconder will agree that in a case like that they would not wish to have 50 per cent. of the places of the tramway conductors on a new system open to women, and that ex-service men should be barred.

With regard to the main question, this Amendment is not moved in any sense of hostility. Speaking for myseif, I am in complete accord with all that the mover and seconder said with regard to the Motion. I should like to emphasise the point with regard to the gain it would be, not merely to the men and to the women, but to the State as a whole, through this extended service of women in the various Departments. We might take an illustration in the extended sphere of work of the Ministry of Health and the extended social work of the Board of Education. Surely there never was a time more opportune for the further extension of the service of women than a time like this, when we are so considerably extending social work—the work in connection with the Ministry of Health, in connection with our maternity centres, in connection with our child welfare centres, and in connection with school clinics, where the service of a woman is essentially of value, and possibly of more value than that of a man. We have felt sometimes in the past that the attitude of the administrators of the social services was not altogether sympathetic, and possibly that has been because it has lacked the influence of women to guide and direct this development of social service along lines which she is particularly qualified from her nature and from her training to follow. Therefore it would be an added advantage to the State as a whole, particularly in its reconstruction of social work, that woman should be brought in to a much greater extent than she has been in the past, and that the State will gain, as well as the women, in this new sphere of advancement. The Parliamentary Secretary suggested that caution was necessary. We have never heard of any reform being advocated where caution was not advocated by those in command, particularly in the Civil Service. It is somewhat amusing to hear the solicitude of the administrative staff of the Civil Service for the welfare of women themselves, when in the past they have not been noted for their great anxiety to welcome women into the branches to which they are now seeking admission. With regard to the question of payment and the cost to the Exchequer, surely the measure of £6,000,000. which may or may not be the added burden, is rather a measure of the injustice to women than a reason for resisting what is an equitable claim. Surely if the matter is right, we should grant it, whatever the cost may be. The measure of a person's service is not to be judged by his needs, but by the service rendered, and you enter on altogether unsound and fallacious economic ground if you are to measure the payment of women and men by the number of mouths they have to feed. You must base it on the only sound economic basis of the value of the service which they render.

Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Resolution," put, and agreed to.

Original Question, as amended, again proposed.

The line of resistance taken up by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury against this Resolution is that it is difficult to alter established convention, that we have to go slowly and that it is our duty to rely upon the natural process of evolution. Every reform has been resisted upon similar grounds, and if every reformer had to rely on the natural process of evolution he would have to wait many years before his desires were fulfilled. In the year 1920 it is fantastic to set up the converse theories to those which are embodied in the Motion—the theories of unequal opportunity and unequal pay. Those theories belong to an absolutely byegone age when woman's place was exclusively the home and when there was no economic need to take woman out of the home in order to earn her livelihood outside. Long before the War that phase in social history was declining and the War has relegated it absolutely into the past. That is not only because there are now more surplus women in the world than there ever were before owing to the great loss of man-hood during the War. It is also because the vast economic burden of rates and taxes, and the cost of living make it necessary in almost every household to get the maximum income, and that means that woman has to go out into the world to earn what she can. Moreover, it is more difficult than it ever was before to afford to marry and to bear children, and that means also a larger proportion of women thrown upon the labour market. Quite apart from all these considerations one result of the War has been to infuse into the minds and temperaments of most women an intense dislike of idleness. If they have not got much work to do at home they want to earn their living outside. Consequently if you deal with realities you have to consider the adult woman of to-day, not as someone who stays at home during the day and simply concerns herself in domestic affairs, but as a breadwinner, and she is by nature handicapped from the very start as a breadwinner. She is handicapped by inexperience in the battle of life, by the deadweight of tradition and by her possession of less physical strength than the man with whom she has to compete. That being so, it seems an absolute fallacy to impose an additional burden upon her, namely, the artificial barrier of unequal opportunity and unequal pay.

There is nothing in this Resolution that asks for anything more than plain, common justice. It does not say that the woman must always receive the same remuneration as a man. It only lays down the proposition that where the qualifications are the same, the work is of the same quality and the ability is the same as that of the man, there shall be no difference whatever between the remuneration given to the man and that given to the woman. If, as the right hon. Gentleman said, probably with perfect truth, in order to judge the fitness of a candidate for a position in the Civil Service you ought to consider personality, character and education as well as excellence in examination, the same principle is equally applicable to men. If viva voce tests are good for women, they are equally applicable to men. It seems very idle to suggest that in the one case it is fairer to examine without any personal investigation or personal interview and to rely entirely upon written work and in the other case you need not regard written work, but are to rely entirely on the first impression and on the record of the previous history of the applicant for a post in the Civil Service. If the one principle is good for women, it is equally good for men.

There are at present many cases of injustice owing to this practice of unequal opportunity and pay, not only in the Civil Service, but also under local authorities, to which this motion also refers. We are all familiar with the disabilities under which teachers in elementary schools labour at present. Even if the assistant mistress or head mistress is equal in value to, or better than, the man in her work, her pay is automatically diminished by a fraction, whatever position she occupies as a teacher. Moreover, it is distinctly unfair that on the so-called Burnham Committee, which sits to judge, arbitrate and advise the Government on questions as to the remuneration of the teachers in these elementary schools, of 44 members there are only five women, and there is not one single representative of the National Federation of Women Teachers. These are illustrations of the inequalities which exist, not only in the Civil Service, but also under local authorities in the civil administration at the present time.

Two suggestions have been made by the Financial Secretary. We have heard them before in this type of controversy as a defence to this custom of inequality. It is said that on the whole men have more family responsibilities, and that in assessing men's remuneration you have to regard not only the work done, but also the person's family responsibilities and liabilities. Very much the same argument has been advanced by the Minister of Education to justify the practice of unequal pay for women teachers. Why is that practice never adopted in any other circumstances and in any other walk of life? In no trade or profession are you asked how many children you have, or whether you are married or not, in assessing the value of the work which you, are rendering. In all my years of practice at the Bar I have never received a single farthing in addition to the fee on my brief because I happen to be the father of six children. It is against all experience. I cannot see why these Government Departments should import into their salary system a custom which is absolutely alien to all economic traditions and customs. Then we are told that men would revolt against this equality of pay. I imagine that the fancy of a revolt is simply a distorted vision, because what men complain about again and again, and what these ex-soldiers for whom my hon. and gallant Friend has spoken complain about, is not the competition of women on equal terms with themselves, but the competition of cheap labour. What the returning soldier boggles at is finding his place taken by a woman clerk who draws only a fraction of the salary to which he thinks he is entitled. If you give women fair play on equal terms with men, men will come into their own every time, if they are regarded as better workers at the partitular job. You only stand to lose and not to gain by the system of cheap labour.

I hope that the Government will take some lessons from the spirit which pervaded the speeches of my hon. Friends who moved and seconded this Resolution, because it is so easy for the Government to take active steps in this direction, and not to leave everything to this supposed natural process of evolution. These disabilities are not statutory disabilities. They are purely disabilities by convention. It does not require an Act of Parliament to establish equal terms for a Government Department or the administration of a local authority. All it requires is the stroke of a pen. It is simply an administrative reform which we are seeking, so that you will alter these regulations in such a way that fairness and justice can be achieved, and this unnecessary and unfair disability removed from the path of women who wish to earn their own living on the same terms as men. On these grounds I hope that my hon. Friend will press his Motion if necessary to a division, because it is right and fitting to the temper of the times that this Resolution should be carried, and by bringing it forward my hon. Friend has not only rendered a service to what is called the woman's movement, but has also rendered a service to the cause of human progress all the world over.

It is very difficult for me, whenever I come to this House to speak on a woman's question, to have to listen to it put by some of the hon. Members in a far better way than I can put it myself, and as I am young to the House, and have not got into the habit of repeating what the House has already heard for the previous two hours, I find it very difficult to speak. I hope that the hon. Member for Durham will press this Motion. No one has fought better on this whole question for women than he has, and I am glad that he has brought this forward, because it is a thing about which women do feel keenly. I hope that the House will succeed in making the Government feel keen about it. I will not bore the House by repeating what has been said in such a splendid way by the mere men who have spoken. On the question of selection, women are more keen than they are on the question of pay. I know that the head of the Civil Service is doing this from what he thinks a fair point of view, and that he has got the interest of women at heart far more than any Member of the Government. But no matter what he thinks, the whole of the women think differently, and as it is a question that is going to affect women I think that the Government should listen to them.

10.0 P.M.

Some hon. Members have referred to the home being the centre where women should work, but why did women take an interest in public life? It was because there were so many thousands of homes in the country in such an unsatisfactory condition. I do not think for one minute that because women enter the field of politics, they are going to neglect their own home. They have entered it because they have even a bigger vision than their own homes. They have endeavoured to help to improve the homes of all. I do not think that the Government are thinking very much about the women's point of view. They use a great many excuses. I am not quite so favourable about the Government's point of view as I was when I fought the election. Women throughout the country are beginning to look askance at the Government. We are perfectly aware that some Members of the Government, and even of the Cabinet itself, did not want the women to have the vote, but we hope that those Members will take their lead from the Prime Minister who always has been in favour of women, and I trust hon. Gentlemen will not be led off by those whom I would call reactionary Members, because that it what it really comes to. The people who are not facing this woman's question from a broad progressive view really are the reactionaries. You see it in this House. They may be the very kindest gentlemen in the whole world, but they are not moving with the times. It is said that women have entered new fields. Sometimes when they have entered those new fields they have found the same old asses browsing around them; they have come against the same old prejudices. It is very difficult for women at the present time. It is always difficult to break down traditions, but all great reformers in the history of the world have had to break away from tradition. People forget that sometimes. I beg the hon. Member who represents the Government to rouse the Government and to make them a little more progressive when they come to deal with this question. One hon. Member has talked about human nature. I hear a great deal about the people who dwell on human nature, the men that say that the world has always been like this and always will be like this. I would like to remind them that there are many people who are not at all contented with the way the world always has been, and that they are relying on a higher thing than human nature to put it right. It is that quality which women possess, and that is one reason why I hope the Government will be alive to it. Women have great qualities to offer to their country and they have given of them freely during the War. They are qualities which were never more needed than now by this country and by the world—qualities of sacrifice, honesty of purpose, and moral courage. With all the best will in the world you may have the highest ideals, but if you have not moral courage you do no good. Women possess that moral courage; they possess many things that are needed not only in the civil service but everywhere. Throughout the country we women, who have long backed the Government and believed in them up to a certain point, are getting a little suspicious. I ask hon. Members to press this Motion to a Division, if necessary. Let us show the Government in no uncertain way what we feel about this. We are not asking for very much in asking for equal opportunity and equal pay. One hon. Member, speaking from an economic point of view, said that when man wants to get a job an employer, far from saying that because he has six children he must receive higher pay, would say that because he had six children he was not wanted. That, it is alleged, is what the fathers usually hear. It is a foolish argument. I hope progressive Members, Members who are up with the time, Members who, when they say they want to have a better world, mean what they are saying and are willing to give up their prejudices, will give this Motion a splendid majority.

Not the least interesting remark made by the last speaker was her indication of the progress of disillusionment with regard to the Government. The more she knows of it the less she likes it. The Motion has been commended to the House by two speeches which were worthy of the subject and were both thoroughly well informed. I am in general agreement with the claims put before the House, but it is only fair to remind the House, on behalf of mere man, that considerable progress has been made since the franchise was first granted to women. What are the facts of the situation? We must not be carried away by the idea that nothing whatever has been done. Very considerable progress has been made and it reached a very marked step forward when the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act was passed last Session. It is perfectly true there is a qualifying Section in that Act which states:

"Notwithstanding anything in this Section His Majesty may by Order-in-Council authorise Regulations to be made providing for and prescribing the mode of admission of women to the Civil Service of His Majesty and the conditions on which women admitted to that Service may be appointed and continue to hold posts therein."

Certain Regulations or Orders-in-Council were supposed to be made. I do not know whether they have been made, but, if so, they have not yet been laid, and I think the House is entitled to have those Orders laid on the Table, so that the House and the country may know exactly what is in the mind of the Executive as regards the carrying out of the terms of the Act, by which, be it noted, they are bound. Then followed the Whitley Council inquiry and it is really on the Report that the matter has been brought to a fairly sharp issue. I think that is not an unfair way of stating it. Although that Report has had the assent by way of signature of all the women who were parties to it, it is significant that the publication of the Report has not been followed by a very large degree of appreciation on the part of representatives of women throughout the country, and there has been ample evidence of dissatisfaction with it. That, of course, is not a good thing. We are entitled to assume that women are on this matter quite as reasonable as men. I agree with what was said by one or two hon. Members that it is not merely a question of pay that is involved. There is a good deal in the feeling that if a woman is good enough by experience of her work and her knowledge and qualification, she should have the opportunity of advancing to a higher position from one class to another in the Civil Service, and that has been the cause of much irritation and dissatisaction. With regard to the estimate which my hon. Friend has given to the House, I confess I am staggered. If the cost to be thrown on the Treasury at the present moment is to be an additional £6,000,000 per year, and although the claim may be just I quite confess, as far as I am concerned, it would be a much greater call than what I should think could be demanded of the Treasury, or than I should be prepared to support. The position of the finances of this country to-day is such that it is the duty of the House to examine with the very greatest care, all the demands made by means of Resolutions or otherwise, and to see what effect they will have on the expenditure of the country. I want to put in that saving Clause because it is often charged, and rightly charged, that while we ask for economy we seize every opportunity for additional expenditure. It seemed to me to be an astounding sum, and I would like to know how it is made up, whether it is prospective increases which have to be granted to men if these larger sums are given to women, and all sorts of calculations of that kind, or the actual sums which in the course of, say, next year, would have to be added to women?

I heard only this afternoon that this Motion was coming forward to-night, and the figure was supplied to me then. I assume that estimate to be the ultimate cost that would result if the scales of pay for both sexes went on for the whole of their careers in the Civil Service, instead of being differentiated at a certain point, as recommended in the Whitley Report.

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for his explanation, because as he stated it originally it had not the qualification he has now put in. It is plain now that if this Motion were carried to-night, it is not within the ambit of reason that anything approaching £6,000,000 would be laid on the Exchequer for some years to come. It is only when this scheme comes into full operation, with all the differentiations, and increases of pay which have to be given to men, that that sum total would be arrived at. If what my two hon. Friends really want were carried out, I do not think the cost in the first year would exceed £500,000; I make that guess, anyhow. Coming back again to the Whitley Report, there is no real disagreement of an absolutely fundamental kind, except what we feel strongly about, and that is the selection as distinguished from the competitive examination. There may be some reason for starting in that way. What I understand my two hon. Friends to press upon the Government in regard to that is this, that the probationary period of five years is too long. I certainly think it is, and I am quite sure that it could be very safely reduced to two years. If that be done, I feel convinced that responsible women in the country, in the Services and out of them, would feel a much greater amount of confidence with regard to their future and the development of the user of women in the Civil Service than they do at present. It is a long time to look forward to, and this is what I would press upon my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. I do not know whether he is in a position to give such an undertaking?

All I know is that from his merits he ought to be. I do not know whether my hon. and gallant Friends will press this to a Division or not. If they do, I am certain it will be carried by an immense majority; but if some such undertaking as that were given they would get a very definite and 'practical issue out of this evening's very useful Debate, that the probation period should be reduced from five years to two—a fair experimental period. I leave that as it stands in the hope that, perhaps, my hon. Friend, with your permission, will be able to say whether some such suggestion as I have made will be likely to receive the support of the Government.

I think the Mover and Seconder of this Motion to-night must be congratulated on the fact that they have not been able to discover an opponent of the Motion. It may be that, seeing that women play such a large part now in the political life of the nation, it will be difficult to find Members in this House who will oppose the principle of equality so far as women in the public service are concerned. But, however much that may obtain, I do not think it can be charged against the Labour party that we waited until women had come into the wider franchise before we adopted or put forward this principle. I think we can claim that we were the first political body in this country to put forward the claim to the principle of equal pay and equal opportunities for women and men, and, therefore, we very gladly associate ourselves with the Motion before the House. I do not know whether, following the disillusionment of the hon. Member for Plymouth (Viscountess Astor) so far as the Government is concerned, and recognising the fact that the party sitting on those Benches have always been the advocates of this principle, she will drift towards this party, among whom she sits by reason of the change of seats she was compelled to make a week or two ago, but, if so, I think we can also suggest to her that, as time goes on, she will discover more and more that, as regards these questions which are vital to the interests of women, those interests will best be served by the Labour party, who have always stood for them in years gone by.

This question appears to me very largely in a practical form. We have an educational system in this country, and I have never yet heard in any matters appertaining to education it has ever been sought to distinguish between which is given to the boy and the girl In our educational system we provide, I believe, equal opportunities for both, and it does seem to me strange that, once having provided the girl equally with the boy with that knowledge by virtue of our educational system, we should establish any barrier which would prevent them using the knowledge gained. It seems to me, further, that the State is standing in its own light, in so far as it puts up anybarrier in its own Departments. Why should we limit, so far as the Departments are con-concerned, our choice of the labour that is necessary to perform the various public services to half the people of this country? Why should we establish a principle which denies the wider choice of having the best that the educational system of this country can give us? It seems, from a practical point of view, that there is every justification for this principle being once and for all firmly and properly accepted by the Government. I think it must be apparent to us all that the door must be open to both sexes; they must come in on an equal footing. I most entirely agree with the point laid down that it is wrong to differentiate between the sexes as to the method by which they can enter the public services. We must seek to get the best. Once we lay down the system for which we can obtain the best service, then that system and method should have universal application to both sexes. That is in regard to the question of equal opportunity.

One point in the question of equal pay —we support it because we believe it is only just and fair that there should be equal pay for equal service. There should he no distinction as between men and women. I do not think there is any danger, as was suggested by the Financial Secretary, that after a period of years we may find ourselves in difficulties because off the married men seeking to obtain some more because of difference in circumstances. There has been difference of circumstances practically for all time, and it has always been ruled out as a wrong basis upon which to establish the remuneration for any class of labour. The principle has never yet been conceded in any form of public service or in private employment. I do not think it can ever establish itself in the future if we bring women in equal with men so far as that employment goes for which they are eminently suited. One recognises that equality of opportunity in an absolute sense is not altogether possible. There are some industries which from the physical standpoint it will be impossible for women to share equally with men. It would also be undesirable from many points of view. In the past this House has legislated to protect women in these matters in the best interests of the nation. But the point seems to me to be most important; and why there should be equal pay for equal service as between the sexes is that I am rather fearful if we start making a distinction it will create a tendency from the standpoint of seeking economy to go for what appears to be the cheapest labour. I have never been convinced that low-priced labour is necessarily the cheapest.

Unless we do firmly establish the principle of equal pay, which will carry with it an incentive to get the best service, and until we have done so, we should, at any rate, be careful as to a distinction, for the desire for economy may lead us to have lower-priced labour simply because it is a lower price. This would lead to a lowering of efficiency in the public service. Viewed from all standpoints, there is every justification for the Resolution before the House. I hope the Government will accept it in its fullest sense and put it into practical operation at the very earliest moment. After all, what the Government do in these matters is very often taken as a standard. Once we have established equality as between the sexes, and equal facilities for education to enable women to develop themselves to the standpoint of efficiency, then we ought to set the example to the rest of the country and to the private services by throwing open the doors and letting each person come in on merit, irrespective of sex, so as to give the best service for the good of the country. I am not at all convinced that the principle has been followed, so far as the Government is concerned, up to the present moment, because I have here a report of a deputation which waited on the Prime Minister with regard to women labour, and it was pointed out that in one Government Department work of a certain class performed by women rose by increments of 2s. 6d. to 55s., while similar work performed by men went up to 71s. 6d. It seems to me that here we have a class of labour that is comparable, and the maximum of the women is much below the maximum of the men. Whilst this kind of thing obtains it is useless to claim that you are putting women upon an equal standing with men, and I hope these matters will be looked into so that the Government may not be merely prepared to accept the principle but will give it practical application in every Department in which it has jurisdiction.

I am surprised that the hon. Member who has just sat down claimed for the Labour party that they have always been out to look after women's interests. I think he must have forgotten the Restoration of Pre-War Practices Act, which has practically driven every woman out of the engineering trade in this country. It has been argued that a man has greater responsibilities than a woman. I should like to deal with the revolt on the part of man from an industrial point of view. When the War broke out we had to put women in places which were previously occupied by men, and what were the objections we had to meet from trades unions? Not that women were occupying their positions, but that they were occupying those positions at lower rates, and that when the War was over that practice would still continue. I do not think any workman would have objected to a woman being employed at equal rates of pay so long as she did an equal amount of work.

I have had a wide experience in the textile industry of Lancashire. I have seen the women who worked during the War, and in a very great number of cases, I might say in the majority of cases, they have not only been eminently satisfactory, but they have done their work even better than the men, and they have been more conscientious and more careful in their work. I happen to be engaged in a trade which requires the utmost care, that is calico printing, which needs the most careful watching and scrutiny, and in my own works the damage to the cloth has been far less when the women were employed than was the case with the men before the War.

With regard to man's responsibilities, is it suggested that when a man asks for labour the employer asks him how many children he has got, and what it costs to educate them? Nothing of the kind. No such question is ever asked, and it does not enter into the matter at all. A woman to-day has equal reponsibilities to that of a man. In very many cases she has to earn the bread that comes into the house, and I do not see how anyone can logically argue against the principle that if a woman gives equal work to that of a man she should have equal pay. Now I come to the question of the extra cost of £6,000,000 sterling which this change that is suggested would involve. It seems to me if that is the case it means the women in the Civil Service are paid £6,000,000 less than they ought to be. I maintain that no service of the State has any more right to sweat women than has any employer in the country. But surely even that difficulty could be got over if the different Departments of State set up a standardised system of wages? If that were done, if men and women went through the examination together, the better one would get the appointment and therefore, as far as I can see, it would make not the slightest difference in cost in the long run. I should like to endorse what has been said by the hon. Member for Moss Side in regard to school teachers. I have had very considerable experience both as a school manager and as a member of Boards of Education, and I could never understand why women should be paid a less salary than men, seeing that their teaching in the school has been quite as good and in many instances far superior to that given by men. I cannot see any logical argument why, simply on the question of sex alone, women should, be paid at a lower rate. You removed the sex inequality in this country by giving women the vote and admitting them into this House, and I consider we shall only be doing the right thing by removing the sex inequality in regard to the Civil Service.

I listened with great disquiet to the championship of my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury of the system of selection in respect of women as against the system of competitive examination. In the past the system of competitive examination has been our sheet-anchor in admission to the public service as against favouritism and other forms of corruption. When we had no such system there was corruption in the whole establishment, but that has now disappeared and nobody yet has been able to find a better system. Nobody denies that a system of selection might be better under certain conditions, one being that all-wise, far-seeing and just tribunals could be established and maintained. But even with a system of Boards of Selection we find a liability to favour interest and friends. I suggest therefore that the system of competitive examination is as desirable in the case of the selection of women as it is in regard to men. I should like to say one word in confirmation of what has been stated by an hon. Member above the gangway on the question which is the sting in the tail of this Motion—the question of equal pay. I believe that, from the point of view of the efficiency of the Public Service and in the interests of both men and women, this is desirable. The efficiency of the Public Service demands that there shall be the same pay for the same work. What is the result of having two rates of pay for the same work? It simply puts an enormous premium on the employment of the lower paid class of labour. That may not apply practically and directly to the employ employés in the Government service, but experience shows that it will apply very practically and directly to the employés of the local authorities. Champion as I am of the equal rights of women, I cannot blind myself to the lesson of experience, which is that an unlimited percentage of women employed in most of the branches of the public service will not be to the advantage of the public service. Experience shows that in the higher branches especially, and in diminishing proportion down to the lower branches, it is essential that there should be a certain percentage and a high percentage of men to women. If you put this premium upon the employment of women you are urging those who have control in the matter in the direction of lowering that percentage unduly and of flooding the public service with women. Without saying one single word in derogation of the value of women's services in this sphere, I believe it is possible to contend that it is not to the advantage of efficiency in the public service. The hon. Member for Moss Side (Lieut.-Colonel Hurst) animadverted on the composition of the Burnham Committee. I have no status to defend the composition of that Committee, of which I was not a member, but the subject of animadversion was that the Committee was not likely to come to a true conclusion on this question, because it did not contain representatives of a certain organisation, which is most expressly identified with the women's cause in this matter. It contained no representatives of that particular organisation, but I would remind the hon. Member that it did contain full representation of the National Union of Teachers, and the National Union of Teachers in the past has formally and officially committed itself to the principle of equal pay for equal work.

I should like to join with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) in his request to the Government that they should, as soon as possible, produce the Orders in Council under the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act, which relate to the conditions of employment of women in the Civil Service. That Act was passed a short time ago to remove the disqualifications under which women have hitherto laboured with regard to the Civil Service. I would ask my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to consider whether the legal position at this moment is not this, that, until the Orders in Council are produced, women must now legally, under that Act, be treated on exactly the same basis as men in the Civil Service. I think it is most desirable that those Orders in Council should be produced as soon as possible. I do not wish, in a Debate of this general character, to introduce any particular cases, but I am acquainted with one particular case, with which my hon. Friend also is acquainted, of a woman in the Civil Service, who, by years of strenuous work, has attained the very highest position in the Service, but who, owing to the Treasury Regulations, is not able to obtain the same pension rights as men who are doing exactly the same work as she is, and who otherwise are in exactly the same position. I am sure the Noble Lady opposite (Viscountess Astor) will agree with me that that is an injustice. I strongly urge that, unless the Government see their way to put right that case, and others of a similar nature, and unless, before very long, they adopt a more reasonable attitude in regard to the Regulations which they at present enforce in the case of women in the Civil Service, there will be a much more insistent demand even than has been raised in this House to-night, and that the matter will, by the sheer force of public opinion, be set right. I urge the Government not only to consider this matter, but to act upon this Motion, and to realise that the day has come when women in the Civil Service, or, for that matter, in any service, have a right to be treated, when they do as good work and give equal service, in every respect in the same way as men.

I have been wondering what is the cause of this new-found enthusiasm for the demands of the women of the country. I am sure that half-a-dozen years ago a Motion such as this would not have found the support that this Motion has found on this occasion. Perhaps it is to be attributed to the work done by the women's organisations of the country in the way of propaganda; or there may be something in the suggestion that this new-found enthusiasm is caused by the rising political power of the women of the country. I hope the House will not take the point of view that it is doing a favour to the women of the country. It is not now a question of what the House is going to do for the women; it is what the women are going to do for themselves. The women of the country have received some measure of political power—it is limited in extent—and we on this side of the House are, at least, making some attempt to extend that power and that responsibility for the women of the country.

The women of the country are going to use that political freedom which they have received for the purpose of effecting their economic freedom, and just in proportion as they enjoy industrial and political power they are going to use it to improve their position in various directions. It is not a question now of what this House is going to do for the women in a voluntary sense, but what the women are going to compel the House to do for them by reason of the power they have in their hands. Women labour in the past has been utilised in various departments of in dustry because it has been looked upon as being cheaper. That point of view is rapidly going by the board. The teachers of the country, with the higher intelligence which the teaching profession enjoys, have taken the lead in demanding equal positions for men and women alike; there is no question of sex disability in the teaching profession. I join in the suggestion which has already been made that the Government should take this question seriously. If the Government feel any doubt, reservation or hesitation upon this question or upon the principle involved in it, the women of the country have no doubt about it. If this Government, or any other Government, fails to respond to the political consciousness of the women of the country such a Government will go before the votes of the women, however much it may have been steady in defiance of the votes of the men.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved, That it is expedient that women should have equal opportunity of employment with men in all branches of the Civil Service within the United Kingdom and under all local authorities, providing that the claims of ex-Service men are first of all considered, and should also receive equal pay.

The remaining Orders were read and postponed.

ADJOURNMENT. —Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Sir R. Sanders. ]

Adjourned accordingly at Twelve Minutes before Eleven of the Clock till Twelve o'Clock to-morrow (Thursday), pursuant to the Resolution of the House of this day.