House of Commons
Tuesday, June 1, 1920
Private Business
Masham Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],
Severn Navigation Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.
White's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Humber Commercial Railway and Dock Bill [ Lords ],
Not amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Bank of Scotland Bill [ Lords ],
Cooper's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time, and committed.
Edinburgh Boundaries Extension and Tramways Bill [ Lords ],
To be read a Second time upon Thursday.
Fife-Young's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],
Filey Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],
Gelligaer Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],
Newtownards Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],
Pontypridd Stipendiary Magistrates Bill [ Lords ],
Read a Second time, and committed.
Ministry of Health Provisional Orders (No. 5) Bill,
Tramways Provisional Orders Bill,
Read a Second time, and committed.
Irvine Harbour Order Confirmation Bill,
Considered: to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Oral Answers to Questions
Russia
British Commercial Interests
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he is in a position to make any statement with regard to the situation in Eastern Siberia, Vladivostok, and the Maritime Province; and whether efforts are being made to safeguard British commercial interests in that area?
With regard to the first part of the question, I can add nothing to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. D. Graham) on 18th May. Such steps are being taken as are possible to safeguard British commercial interests in this region. As the hon. and gallant Member is doubtless aware, there is a British representative at Vladivostok.
If that be the case, how is it that we can get no further information from this British representative at Vladivostok?
Merchant Ships
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller, if he can state how many former Russian merchant ships are flying the British flag and engaged in trade; how many former Russian merchant ships are trading under British control; how these ships were acquired or put under our control; and what is the future policy of His Majesty's Government with reference to these ships?
Nineteen former Russian merchant ships are at present under the British flag and under British control, but five of these are being redelivered to their owners. The vessels were acquired by requisition. It has been decided to return all privately-owned ships to their owners, but no decision has yet been arrived at with regard to the others.
Trade Relations
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the subject of trade with Russia?
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he can make a statement as to trade with Russia?
This matter is now being discussed with representatives from Russia now in this country. It is not yet possible to make any statement.
May we take it that this House will be informed at the earliest possible moment, and a chance of discussion given before this matter is decided?
I am afraid I cannot answer that question.
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Government has definitely stated that it wishes to resume trade relations with Russia, trading facilities are being instituted at the various ports and trade centres; whether he is aware that a large number of ships now destined for Odessa are held up at Constantinople; and whether it is the intention of the Government to set up consular representatives at Constantinople and other places without delay?
I have been asked to reply to this question. The institution of trading facilities in Russia is dependent upon the outcome of negotiations now proceeding with the Russian delegation in London. I have not received particulars of the merchant shipping destined for Russian ports which has not proceeded beyond Constantinople, but it is unlikely that such vessels would clear until hostilities in the Black Sea have come definitely to an end. The Commander-in-Chief has been informed that there is no intrinsic objection to the shipment of goods other than arms and munitions to Bolshevik ports, but he has discretion to take such steps in restraint of trade as the military situation may require. The reply to the last part of the question is that His Majesty's Govern- ment cannot appoint consular officers to ports in Turkey until the Turkish Treaty has been ratified, nor do they propose to appoint consular officers to Russian Black Sea ports until the circumstances have changed.
Can the Hon. Gentleman say definitely whether merchant ships for Odessa not laden with munitions of war will be allowed to go there?
I have said that the Commander-in-Chief has been notified that there is no intrinsic objection to the shipment of goods other than arms and munitions to Bolshevik ports.
Black Sea (British Naval Operations)
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether British ships are still conducting operations in the Black Sea; if so, what is the nature of these operations; and, if not, when these operations ceased and what were their results?
British warships are protecting sea communications to the Crimea until an armistice is arranged between General Wrangel's army and Soviet Russia. Negotiations will commence shortly. The ships are there to prevent the attack of Soviet troops along the Black Sea coast road towards Batoum, and supporting the garrison at Batoum.
Why are we protecting these communications when there is no hostile fleet at sea in any way threatening them?
I did not suggest that the hostility came from the sea. I said we were preventing an attack on Batoum of of which there were indications. I really think the hon. and gallant Member would be of more use in this matter by advising his friends—those he represents here with so much enthusiasm and so much vigour—than by criticising those who are only doing their duty in carrying out the policy of the Allies?
Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that I represent the division of Central Hull in this House? Why has he allowed himself to forget his usual courtesy in this matter?
I assure the hon. and gallant Member I was not aware I was guilty of any discourtesy. I was not speaking of representation in a Parliamentary sense. But frequently the hon. and gallant Member has pressed with great ability and great vigour the opinions of those to whom we have been opposed, and all I did was to suggest that the better way to pursue his policy was by giving them good advice rather than by attacking us.
Is it the case that the British Empire and the British Government are at war with the Soviet Government?
It is not. I have yet to learn that, by taking precautions in order to avoid attacks upon bases which the Allies have undertaken to protect, we are therefore at war.
May I ask whether the Admiralty have not now adopted the policy of the Prime Minister of making peace with these people?
I am afraid it would take more time to answer that question than I could use for the purposes of an ordinary Parliamentary reply. I have told my hon. and gallant Friend frequently that the Admiralty are carrying out strictly the policy laid down by the Prime Minister in this House. They have fulfilled all the conditions laid down with regard to the Baltic Sea, and in this particular case—in the Black Sea—they are only taking the ordinary precautionary measures which are rendered necessary by the policy of the Allies.
rose ߞ
Any further question on this subject must be deferred.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Pensions Administration (United Kingdom and France)
asked the Minister of Pensions if he can state the number of those receiving pensions arising out of the War in this country and in France; and if he can state the number of persons engaged in this country on the administration of such pensions, and the corresponding figure for France?
The number of persons receiving pensions in the United Kingdom in respect of disability or death in the present War is approximately 1,700,000, and, in addition, nearly 1,800,000 wives, children and other persons dependent on pensioners are receiving allowances, thus making the total number of beneficiaries approximately 3,500,000. The precise number of persons receiving similar pensions or allowances in France is not available, but I am informed that the number is in excess of 3,000,000. The number of persons engaged on the administration of pensions in the employ of the Ministry on the 1st May was 24,892. It has not been found practicable to ascertain the corresponding figure for France.
Could the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries from the pension officials to see whether the figures cannot be obtained?
Yes, my officials have been doing their very best, but my hon. and gallant Friend will realise that the conditions, social and otherwise, in France are quite different from the conditions here.
Territorial Army
Administrative Services (Grants)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is yet in a position to inform Territorial Force associations of the extent of the grants to be allowed them in future for administrative services; and, if not, when he expects to be able to inform them?
The detailed revision of the grants to Territorial Force Associations for administrative services is proceeding as quickly as possible. Meanwhile, associations have been given provisional information as to the extent of their grants, and are making their arrangements and drawing funds on this basis.
British Army
Expeditionary Force Canteens
asked the Secretary of State for War whether the final balance sheets of the Expeditionary Force Canteens have been delivered; if so, whether they can be laid upon the Table of the House; and whether a final compilation has been made of the profits of the Expeditionary Force Canteen, apart from the profits of the Navy and Army Canteen Board; and, if so, can he give the figures?
The final accounts of the Expeditionary Force Canteens will not be available until the liquidation is completed, and it is not at present possible to state when this will take place.
British Troops (Eastern Germany)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether British troops are still in parts of Poland and Eastern Germany for plebiscitary purposes; if so, what are their numbers; and when he expects to be able to withdraw them?
There are no British troops in Poland. As regards Eastern Germany, there is one battalion of British troops in the Allenstein Plebiscite Area and one battalion at Danzig. The total number of troops, including administrative services, is approximately 1,500. It is hoped to withdraw the battalion from Allenstein shortly after the conclusion of the plebiscite, which is to be held by the 15th July. It is not possible to say at present when the battalion at Danzig will be withdrawn.
Church of Scotland
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether, in view of prospective legislation, he proposes to take any steps to ascertain what is the present value of the stipends of the Church of Scotland; and whether he will grant the Return which stands in the name of the hon. Member for the Bridgeton Division of Glasgow? [Teinds, &c. (Scotland),—Return of the rental of each county and each parish in Scotland, and of the value of the teinds appertaining thereto, and the value of such portion of them as is now appropriated to the payment of stipend and communion elements, and the value of such of them as are unexhausted by such payments, and which still remain available for the future augmentation of ministers' stipends, the information to be given under the heads of the respective presbyteries and synods.]
I regret I am unable to grant the Return asked for by my hon. Friend. Apart from rental, which is no guide to the teindable rental, no information of the nature asked for is available. I am advised that it would not be possible to obtain it without an elaborate investigation which could only give approximate results and which would not warrant the time and labour expended upon it. I may add that committees representing the Land Property Federation and the Church of Scotland, respectively, are at present in negotiation with regard to a basis for the conversion of stipend into a cash payment, and have attained a large measure of agreement in the matter.
Has my right hon. Friend not himself been negotiating with these bodies with regard to legislation affecting these funds, and is it not desirable to know the total amount of funds involved?
It is perfectly true that I have been in negotiation with the bodies to which I have referred, but, as I told my hon. Friend in the answer which I have given, it is impossible to get an accurate return of the character which he asks, and if he will be good enough to come and see me on the subject, I think I can convince him of the futility of his inquiry.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this return which I have asked for is the same as was granted a number of years ago, before the War, and if it was then possible to grant that at a time when there was no prospective legislation on the subject, why should it not be possible to grant an exactly similar return just now?
The returns to which my hon. Friend refers are, in my humble judgment, scarcely worth the paper on which they are printed, and I do not propose to incur the time and labour which would be expended upon producing a return which would be equally useless.
Is there any connection between the legislative proposals of the Government, and any Return of this sort, and is there any reason why the one should be delayed for the other?
There is no reason at all why the legislative proposals which are under consideration should be delayed for the production of a Return which I am quite satisfied would not satisfy my hon. Friend.
67 and 68.
asked (1) the Lord Privy Seal whether the Government has received a request from the United Free Church in the matter of the Government introducing a Bill to alter the constitution of the Church of Scotland; if so, will he state its terms;
(2) whether any agreement has been intimated to the Government between representatives of the Church of Scotland and the United Free Church to the effect that the Government should be requested to introduce a measure to recognise the draft articles prepared by the Church of Scotland; and, if so, will he state its terms?
As I stated in answer to an earlier question, the Government had received intimation of an agreement between representatives of the Church of Scotland and of the United Free Church to the effect that the Government should introduce a Bill.
Have any representations been received in favour of the Bill and the articles from the United Free Church?
The Government received notice of an agreement between the representatives of these two bodies, and no doubt my hon. Friend has seen that the General Assembly have approved of them.
Has my right hon. Friend any information as to whether representatives were appointed by the United Free Church to approve of these Articles?
I hardly know what the hon. Member means by representatives. If he means delegates, there were none, but the decision of the General Assembly shows that representatives of the United Free Church were sent there.
Housing
Building Operations (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he can state the number of houses which have been completed and are in actual occupation under the Housing Act of 1919, the number of houses which are in course of construction, and the number which he estimates will be completed in the course of the present year?
I am not yet in a position to give my hon. Friend the figures up to the end of May. At the end of April there were 2,054 houses in course of construction. As regards the remainder of the question, I would refer to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. MacCallum Scott) on the 19th ultimo.
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he can state in respect of how many houses the subsidy has been paid to private builders under the Housing (Additional Powers) Act, 1919.
The subsidy has not yet been paid to any private builders. It is expected that it will be paid shortly in respect of four houses which have been completed. Plans for 217 houses in respect of which subsidy will be claimed have been approved.
Has it been made clear to the people in the crofting areas of Scotland that men who are willing to build houses for themselves will get the subsidy?
Yes, I understand that has been made quite clear.
Rents (New Houses)
asked the Minister of Health how many of the 1,464 houses now erected under his housing schemes are let at rents of 6s. to 12s. a week, and how many at rents of 12s. to 20s. a week; and what is the average rent of the whole of such houses?
Rents are approved for the different types of houses before they are completed. So far as rents have been approved for completed and uncompleted houses, the percentages are as follows:ߞ
Rent Restriction Act Amendment Bill
asked the Prime Minister when the Rent Restriction Act Amendment Bill will be introduced?
This Bill was introduced on the 20th of May.
Mercantile Marine
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Shipping Controller if he can state what was the capital of the British Mercantile Marine when the War broke out; and if he can also state the amount of profit made by British shipowners between August, 1914, and the end of 1916, from that date to the Armistice, and from the Armistice until December, 1919?
There are no official statistics giving the precise information which the hon. Member desires, but excluding vessels under 100 tons there were 20,750,000 tons gross of shipping under the British flag when War broke out, and a rough estimate of its total value can be formed by taking an average value per ton. If the figure £8 10s. be taken, the total is about £175,000,000. An analysis of the earnings of a number of shipping companies, both passenger and cargo, over a series of years, will be found in the issue for 1st January last of the shipping paper "Fairplay." According to this analysis the average dividend in the case of cargo boats over a period of 16 years, from 1904 to 1919, was 9·15 per cent., and in the case of passenger lines over a period of 14 years, from 1906 to 1919, 9·03 per cent.
Food Supplies
De-Control
asked the Minister of Food what articles of food were under control at the date of the Armistice, and which of them have now been released from control; and what articles of imported food were mainly or wholly purchased by the Ministry at the date of the Armistice, and which of them have now been released from control?
The information asked for in the question can be conveyed more clearly by means of a tabular statement, which I am sending the hon. Member.
Food Commissioner (Scotland)
asked the Minister of Food whether a new Food Commissioner has been appointed for Scotland; if so, what is his name; and what are the conditions of the appointment?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The name of the new Food Commissioner for Scotland is Air John Lorne MacLeod. As regards the last part of the question, the appointment is made subject to a month's notice of termination on either side, and the salary of the post is at the rate of £1,000 per annum.
Is Air John MacLeod devoting his whole time to the duties of the office?
I should like notice of that question.
Is not that part of the question? Does it not come under the question, "What are the conditions of the appointment?"
Agriculture Bill
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture (1) if he can announce the present outlook for the British wheat harvest, in view of the shortage of bread; and whether, in view of increasing wheat cultivation in this country next year, he will expedite his proposals for dealing with agricultural problems? (2) When he proposes to take the Second Reading of the Agriculture Bill; whether he has received any representations from agricultural authorities on any aspects of the measure; and, in that case, what is their nature?
asked the Prime Minister when the Second Reading of the Bill granting guaranteed prices for corn, and establishing security of tenure in agriculture, will be taken?
It is at present too early in the year for any statement to be made of the probable yield of the wheat crop in this country. I hope that it may be possible for the Second Reading of the Agriculture Bill to be taken on Monday next, the 7th inst. Representations of a general nature have been received from agricultural bodies throughout the country, urging the Government to proceed with the Bill, which since its introduction on May 20, has, so far as can be ascertained, been favourably received by the agricultural community.
Ex-Service Men
Land Settlement
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture how many acres have been acquired for land settlement under the Land Settlement Act, 1919; the total cost of the land acquired; the number of ex-soldiers who have been settled on the land; and the average rental per acre at which it has been let?
The area acquired by County Councils and Councils of County Boroughs in England and Wales under the Land Settlement (Facilities) Act, 1919, is 198,500 acres. Of this area 176,660 acres have been purchased for cash at a cost of £7,514,400. Up to the 16th May last, the total number of ex-service men actually provided with holdings was 5,952, who were in occupation of 89,826 acres. As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries explained on the 31st March last, in reply to the hon. Member for Rother Valley, it would be misleading to give any figure as representing the average rent charged for holdings. In addition to the above, the area acquired by the Ministry for the provision of farm settlements is 28,294 acres, of which 14,384 acres have been purchased for £454,200. Possession has so far been obtained of 15,662 acres, and the number of ex-Service men and women now at the settlements is 520.
Overseas Settlement
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that in July last advertisements were inserted in the press inviting ex-service men to apply through the Labour Exchange for free passages for themselves and their dependants to various of His Majesty's Dominions; that an applicant named W. H. Crawford, then employed at Woolwich Arsenal, who responded, was informed by the Overseas Settlement Department that he could have a free allotment of land in Queensland, an advance of capital at low interest from the Dominion savings banks, and free training at the expense of the Government; that he paid £85 for his passage to Queensland on the assurance that the money would be refunded immediately on his arrival at Brisbane; that upon reaching that port with his wife and children he found that no preparation had been made for their reception, and that nothing whatever appeared to be known of the settlement scheme; that he was refunded £35 only of his passage money, was advised to return to England, and was promised, until a vessel could be found, the sum of two guineas weekly for the maintenance of himself and family; that later, although no vessel had then been found, he was informed that even this inadequate allowance might be stopped; and that the disappointment experienced and the hardships endured in her delicate state of health caused Mrs. Crawford to die in childbirth; and whether, with a view to preventing similar cases, he will make representations to the Dominions concerned?
Some of the statements in the question appear to relate to another case which is still under investigation. It is the case that an ex-service man named W. H. Crawford, who had previously been nominated for assisted passages by relatives in Queensland, applied for passages for himself and his family under the scheme for granting free passages to ex-service men which was announced in this House on the 8th of April, 1919. Like other inquirers, this applicant was furnished with a copy of the General Handbook issued by the Oversea Settlement Office. This handbook contains a summary of the schemes for the settlement of ex-service men which have been announced by the various Oversea Governments, including the Government of Queensland.
Mr. Crawford was accepted was a settler by the Queensland Government, because he stated that he was going to assured employment as a help on a farm under his brother-in-law. He did not pay for his passages, but was provided with free passage vouchers by the Oversea Settlement Committee, and the cost was reimbursed to the shipping company in the ordinary way. I am informed that on his arrival in Queensland he did not apply to be settled on the land. Had he done so, the Queensland Government would have endeavoured to assist him. The Queensland Government, however, offered him other employment, which he refused, and subsequently gave him voluntary assistance and provided him with passages to enable him and his family to return to England. I am further informed that it is unhappily the case that Mr. Craw-ford's wife died in childbirth almost immediately after her arrival in Queensland, but that there are no grounds for supposing that her death was due to other causes than the ordinary risks of childbirth.
Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman aware that Mr. Crawford is still held up in Queensland, and is he also aware of many other cases of men inveigled to Australia under false pretences?
I am not aware that he is still held up in Queensland, but I am making inquiries. I cannot agree that many men who have gone to Queensland are inveigled there under false pretences.
Out-Of-Work Donation
asked the Minister of Labour if he will consider the extension of the six weeks' disqualification in the case of an ex-Service man who voluntarily relinquishes his employment in order to put an end to the practice of men unnecessarily drawing unemployment pay?
I presume that my hon. and gallant Friend is referring to unemployment pay in connection with the out-of-work donation scheme, and not to benefit under the National Insurance (Unemployment) Acts. The Committee of Inquiry into the scheme of out-of work donation recommended that in such cases the Courts of Referees should be authorised to impose a further penalty, consisting in a reduction by not more than six weeks of the period for which donation may be drawn. Effect was given to this recommendation in July last.
Students (Training Grant)
asked the President of the Board of Education whether he is aware of the delay in the payment of grants to ex-Service students at present in training; and whether, in view of the inconvenience, and often distress, caused by the delay, and the consequent harmful effect on the minds of students, many of whom support a wife and family, he will do his best to speed up these payments?
I am not aware of any general delay in the. payments of grants to ex-Service students at present in training under the Board's scheme, but if any specific instance of delay be brought to my notice it will be investigated.
British East Africa (Labour)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether official copies of the Northey-Ainsworth labour circular have been received from British East Africa, and when copies will be laid upon the Table of the House?
The official copies of the circular have not yet been received.
Southern Rhodesia
asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can now make any statement regarding the policy of the Colonial Office in regard to the grant of responsible government in Southern Rhodesia as a result of the recent elections held in that country?
The newly elected Legislative Council of Southern Rhodesia has passed Resolutions in favour of the grant of responsible government to the territory. These Resolutions will, of course, receive the most careful consideration, but it is not possible to make any statement at present.
Victoria Embankment Gardens
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether he can now remove the buildings in the Victoria Embankment gardens so that these public open spaces can be used during the ensuing summer months?
I regret that it is not yet possible to state when the buildings in question can be removed.
Is it not possible to use these buildings for housing?
The buildings are still being used for the War Office staff.
University of London (New Site)
asked the First Commissioner of Works whether the Government have purchased several acres of land from the Duke of Bedford in Bloomsbury; if so, what price has been paid for it; for what purpose it is to be put; whether it will incur the dishousing of any persons; and, if so, how many?
asked the President of the Board of Education what price the Government propose to pay the Duke of Bedford for the site behind the British Museum which has been offered to the University of London; how many private residences, boarding- houses, or hotels are included in the site; what is the estimated number of the population which will be displaced; what arrangements for their re-housing have been made; and whether the Government have considered the desirability of acquiring the site of the Foundling Hospital, which is in the immediate vicinity, and of approximately the same area, but has the advantage of not being intersected by roads or subject to leases, and would not involve the rendering homeless of many families, but would enable the trustees of the hospital to remove their children to the country, as they are anxious to do?
In view of the fact that the matter is still under negotiation, and the purchase is not yet actually completed, I am not in a position to make any statement as to the price proposed to be paid to the Duke of Bedford. A full description of the site, including an enumeration of the number of houses on it and the dates of the termination of leases, has already been published. As the great majority of the leases do not fall in until 1923 and after that date, no immediate provision for re-housing is necessitated. After full consideration of all the relevant circumstances, the Government decided that the foundling hospital site was less suitable for the purpose than the site behind the British Museum.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Senate of the University of London have already expressed a preference for the site of the Foundling Hospital as compared with the site behind the British Museum belonging to the Duke of Bedford, and will the right hon. Gentleman inform the House why the Government are endeavouring to force the University to accept a site more expensive and less suitable for the purpose of a university?
I am perfectly aware that many years ago, when the London University question was in an entirely different position, the Senate of the University came to that conclusion, but the Government has no doubt whatever that, as between the two sites, the site now selected and offered to the University is preferable, first of all, because of its proximity to the British Museum, the greatest depository of material for study in the world; secondly, because of its proximity to University College; and, thirdly, because of its more central position. So far as the last part of the hon. Gentleman's question goes, the Government is not attempting to force the University to accept the site. The Government offer the site to the University. The University may accept it, or decline it.
Will not the cost in either case fall on public funds, and is it absolutely necessary to incur any such charge at the present time?
It is perfectly true that the cost will fall on public funds, but it is offset, first of all, by the value of the site and buildings at present occupied by London University. The hon. Baronet must know that London University is now housed by the Government in part in the Imperial Institute, which will be liberated, and, of course, the buildings occupied by King's College will also be liberated.
Could not the Government close all universities and schools to oblige the hon. Member?
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in addition to the site of the Foundling Hospital, it is surrounded by an equivalent acreage of about 10 acres which can be obtained without additional cost? At a time when finance is of such urgent need to the State, surely it is a mistake for the Government to suggest a site to the University of London which is far more expensive than a site of which they have themselves expressed approval?
Before the hon. Member makes any observation with respect to the cost of those sites, he should know what is the price.
May I ask whether it is possible that the Duke of Bedford will give this site to the University?
Will the Minister not tell us what is the respective cost of the two sites?
That has already been answered.
Transport
Traction Vehicles (Examination)
asked the Minister of Transport whether an examination of the traction system of public service and other heavy industrial motor vehicles is insisted upon by the Ministry of Transport; and, if not, whether, in view of the very great extension of the numbers of public service and other heavy industrial vehicles now taking place, he will provide for such an examination to be carried out at frequent intervals by inspectors from his Department, without preliminary notice?
Public service and heavy industrial motor vehicles have to comply with the provisions of the Locomotives Acts and the Motor Car Act, 1903, and of the Orders made there under. Public service vehicles, by which I understand my Noble Friend to mean hackney and stage carriages plying for hire, are also subject to inspection by the licensing authority. The enforcement of the Regulations and Bye-laws, both as regards public service and heavy industrial motor vehicles, is a matter for the local authorities and the police. The Minister does not propose to appoint inspectors for this purpose, as suggested in the last part of the question.
London Traffic
asked the Minister of Transport whether the Report of the Advisory Committee on London Traffic has yet been considered by the Cabinet; and, if so, whether any action is contemplated on the lines therein recommended?
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have arrived at any decision with regard to the Report of the London Traffic Committee?
In answer to these questions, I would refer the hon. Members to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport to the hon. Member for Southwark (Central) in this House, on the 26th April. I am not in a position at present to add anything.
asked the Minister of Transport whether, having regard to the urgency of dealing with the congestion in London traffic, he can give the House an assurance that a serious attempt will be made to deal with the existing conditions before the coming winter?
The authorities and owners of undertakings concerned with London traffic are pressing on with such improvements to the services as are possible, and I hope that before winter a considerable improvement will have been effected. The Report of the Advisory Committee on London Traffic, which makes recommendations with a view to the future control of London traffic, is under consideration by the Cabinet.
Water Power
asked the Minister of Transport if he will inform the House, especially in view of the coal and oil shortage of the world, what progress he is making with co-ordinated schemes for the utilisation of the water power of this country in the creation of electric power; and whether the co-operation of industrialists is being invited on practical lines?
The extent to which the water power resources of this country can be utilised for industrial purposes is the subject of an inquiry by a committee appointed by the Board of Trade in June, 1918. This committee has already issued an Interim Report, and it is understood that it has now almost completed its labours. Proposals for the co-ordination of certain water power schemes with fuel power stations have been submitted to the Electricity Commissioners and are under consideration.
Do the terms of reference to this Committee include the utilisation of tides for electrical generation?
I am afraid I cannot answer that question without notice.
Trade and Commerce
Imports
asked the President of the Board of Trade what has been the average value per ton of the commodities imported during each of the following months: January, February, March, and April, 1920; and whether the decline during the last two months is due to a fall in price or to an alteration in the character of the imports?
The average value per ton of the merchandise registered as imported into the United Kingdom during the months of January, February, March, and April, 1920, has been £55·6, £59·0, £49·8, and £45·4 respectively. The lower level of the average value per unit of weight in the later months is due mainly to the fact that, in the case of certain classes of merchandise whose value per ton weight is considerably in excess of the average, the quantities imported have decreased, while in some cases in which the value per ton is considerably below the average the quantities imported have increased. Some of these changes are seasonal in character. It would appear, from such an examination of the figures as can be made without unreasonable cost, that no important part of the change shown can be attributed to a general fall in prices of imported merchandise.
asked the President of the Board of Trade when he will make an announcement of the policy of the Government with regard to import restrictions?
An announcement on the subject will be made as soon as possible, but I am not at present in a position to give an exact date.
Production Statistics
asked the President of the Board of Trade how many Forms Z 8 have been issued this year; what action he takes with firms or persons who refuse to return them; what purpose these forms are intended to serve; and why statistics relating to labour are dealt with by his Department.
Two issues of the Forms Z 8 have been made this year, the number issued on each occasion being about 50,000. In the few cases of refusal to return forms, letters have been addressed to the firms concerned, pointing out the purpose of the inquiry, and asking them to reconsider their decision. With regard to the last two parts of the question, the Government have considered it essential that they should be adequately informed as to the volume and distribution of production and the extent to which the industries of the country have been recovering their pre-War activity. The Z 8 returns form one of the most important sources of such information, and, while the returns show numbers of persons employed and may, therefore, be said to relate to labour, these particulars afford to the Board of Trade (without imposing on manufacturers and others the more troublesome work of furnishing quarterly returns of production) a useful measure of the variation in the activities of the various industries. It is recognised that the returns obtained by the Board of Trade and the Ministry of Labour to some extent overlap, and arrangements have been made to issue a composite form which will include the information required by each Department.
Coal Production
Coal Industry (Organisation)
asked the Prime Minister (1) when the Bill providing for the nationalisation of mineral royalties will be introduced; (2) when the Bill regulating the future organisation of the coal industry will be introduced?
I am not yet able to name a date for the introduction of these Bills.
Emergency and Household Supplies
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether emergency or reserve supplies of coal are kept in each district to meet urgent requirements; and whether, if that is so, consumers are made aware of the exact localities of these supplies, so that application may be made when necessary?
Emergency stocks of coal have only been kept in distracts where the local authority has agreed to lay them down. It is not the practice to allow consumers to obtain supplies direct from these stocks. When there is a shortage of supplies merchants draw coal from these stocks to meet the urgent requirements of their house coal customers.
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether there is now any maximum of coal which may be delivered in one week to any house; and whether, in that case, he will state what it is?
There is no general fixed maximum quantity of coal that may be delivered in one week to any house, but where supplies to any particular district are short the Local Fuel Overseer for the district has power to restrict deliveries to a weekly maximum fixed at his discretion.
Pig-Iron (Scotland)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, owing to the shortage of pig-iron in Scotland, the iron-founding industry is faced with a crisis that will necessitate a partial stoppage or entire closing down of works; and, if so, whether he will ask for an immediate return of outputs and stocks of foundry pig-iron at makers' works and meantime, while the situation is being investigated, prohibit all exports of pig-iron?
The question of the supplies of pig-iron for the iron founding industry in Scotland has been receiving the attention of my right hon. Friend for some time past, and he is in communication with the pig-iron producers and the Scottish trades concerned with a view to such improvement of the position as may be possible. As regards the second part of the question, he has already arranged for the information suggested to be furnished at an early date, and the whole position will then be reconsidered in the light of that information.
Germany
War Criminals (Trial)
asked the Prime Minister whether it is intended to proceed with the trial of war criminals on the black list; how long it is intended to retain in the hands of the Allies those persons who feature in this list; whether they are considered to be prisoners of war or criminals against the laws of the country in whose hands they now are pending trial; and whether the Supreme Council has as yet decided whether the naval offenders will be tried under the German or British code of international law as far as maritime offences are concerned?
asked the Prime Minister whether any further arrangements have been made for the trial of the ex-Kaiser which he announced on 3rd July, 1919, would take place in London?
I have nothing to add to the statement I made in the House on this subject on 19th April.
Is there any intention of hanging this man, as we were told 18 months ago?
asked the Prime Minister what arrangements have been made by the German Government for the trial of war criminals at Leipzig?
asked the Prime Minister if he can now make any statement as to the exact procedure which will be followed in regard to the trial in Germany of Germans charged by the Allies with offences against the laws and usages of war?
I can add nothing to the statement which I made in reply to questions on this subject on the 17th May last.
Army of Occupation
asked the Prime Minister whether any part of the cost in connection with the Army of Occupation has as yet been paid by Germany; if so, what is the amount which has been paid; and what is the total sum payable to date?
Approximately £4,000,000 has been paid in supplies of local currency for the use of the occupying forces. The balance of the British claim up to the end of May, 1920, is approximately £45,000,000, to which a further sum, now estimated at £2,750,000, will be added in respect of the rest of 1920–21. The question of payment rests with the Reparation Commission.
Peace Treaties
Ratification
asked the Prime Minister whether he can state which of the Treaties with enemy States have been ratified and which still remain to be ratified; and whether he can indicate when the termination of the War within the meaning of the Termination of the War Act will be reached?
Ratifications have been deposited in the case of the Treaty of Peace with Germany, but not yet in the case of the Treaties with Austria and Bulgaria. The King's ratification for the British Empire of the Treaties with Austria and Bulgaria was sent to His Majesty's Ambassador in Paris on the 5th May. The Treaties of Peace with Hungary and Turkey have not yet been signed. An Order in Council cannot be issued under the Termination of the Present War (Definition) Act, until all these Treaties have been signed and the necessary ratifications deposited.
Can my right hon. Friend say then why 30th July was the date put on the War Pensions Bill?
No, I cannot.
Germany
asked the Prime Minister whether he can now make any statement with respect to the latest negotiations with Germany on the financial and other aspects of the Peace Treaty?
No, Sir. There is no statement which can be made at present.
Ministry of Munitions
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether any fried fish shops and any other similar industrial enterprises are now the property of or under the control of the Ministry of Munitions; if so, how many; is there a controller; is there a staff and under what Vote will it be found; and how many such institutions were set up under the Ministry during the War?
No fried fish shops are now, nor, so far as is known, were ever, conducted by the Ministry of Munitions. If my Noble Friend will inform me what class of establishment he would consider "similar industrial enterprises" I shall be happy to make inquiries.
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions when the Ministry will be wound up?
I hope it may be possible to make a statement in regard to this matter shortly, but it is certain that the process of disposal cannot be completed within the present financial year.
Post Office
Postal Rates (Increase)
asked the Prime Minister when the Bill for increasing postal rates will be introduced?
The Prime Minister has asked me to answer this question. I hope it will be possible to introduce this Bill next week.
Why have we got to pay two pence to-day for letters?
It is not necessary to introduce legislation to alter the penny post.
This is not an alteration of the penny post, but of the three-halfpenny post. I beg to give notice that I shall raise this question on the Motion for the Adjournment.
Deliveries and Collections
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can give an approximate estimate of the saving that would likely be effected if in no part of the country the postal deliveries did not exceed three per day and if the collections were reduced to the same number?
I can give no approximate estimate without making detailed local enquiries, which would serve no useful purpose. The number of deliveries and collections only exceeds three per day in London and the larger towns, where a reduction to that number would be impracticable alike from the point of view of the Post Office and the public. I anticipate that any such measure would increase rather than reduce expenditure by spreading the work less evenly over the day, and it would necessitate the wholesale substitution of full-time by part-time labour.
asked the Postmaster-General whether he can give an approximate estimate of the saving that would be effected if the Sunday postal deliveries in England were abolished?
I have no up-to-date figures showing the cost of Sunday indoor and outdoor postal work, and I doubt whether it is at present worth while to obtain them. The question of discontinuing Sunday deliveries was considered during the War, and was negatived by the Government.
Hours of Labour (Regulation)
asked the Prime Minister when the Bill regulating the hours of labour in industry will be introduced?
I regret that I am unable to assign a definite date for the introduction of this Bill, but my right hon. Friend hopes to be able to make an announcement on the subject shortly.
Canadian Ambassador, Washington
asked the Prime Minister if the correspondence can now be laid upon the Table respecting the decision to appoint a Canadian Minister at Washington with ambassadorial powers?
asked the Prime Minister whether he will cause to be laid upon the Table of the House the correspondence between His Majesty's Government and the Canadian Government relative to the appointment of a Canadian Minister at Washington?
In reply to these questions, I have to state that His Majesty's Government and the Canadian Government are agreed that for the present it would not be in the public interest to lay the correspondence which has passed on the subject.
May I ask the Leader of the House, seeing the importance of this matter and how closely it affects the relations between the Empire and foreign countries, if he does not think it desirable that the House should have full information on this subject?
Yes, the House has full information of the fact, but I think my hon. Friend and the House will agree that we must in this matter not only consider ourselves but also what is desired by the Canadian Government.
Is it not a fact that a decision has already been taken on this matter and this House has not been informed of the full circumstances?
No. I read a statement to the House which I thought gave the decision.
Does not this matter affect the whole of our constitution and the position of our Empire as a whole?
Every new development affects the constitution.
Persia
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can make any statement with regard to the present position of affairs in Persia; what steps are being taken to safeguard British interests; and whether the Bolshevik aggression has been the subject of any diplomatic representation?
asked the Prime Minister whether he has any further information regarding the situation in Persia; and whether the British Government are taking any action in that country?
The Persian Minister for Foreign Affairs, who is now in London, has been in constant touch with the Foreign Office and has discussed the situation with the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. A complete understanding prevails, and it hoped that as a result both Persian and British interests will be safeguarded. In answer to the last part of the question, the Persian Government have protested against the Bolshevist action in Persia to the Soviet Government at Moscow direct.
Has the Persian Government asked that the Council of the League of Nations should be summoned, and that they should deal with this matter?
I must ask for notice of that question.
Has an embassy been sent from Teheran to Moscow?
I think not, but I should like to have notice of that question.
Finance Bill
Import Duties
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the yield in the year 1919–20 of each of the new import duties contained in Section 1 of the Finance Act, and the cost of collection in each case.
With the hon. Member's permission, I will publish the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The following is the answer referred to:
The approximate yield in the year 1919–20 of each of the new import duties contained in Section 1 of the Finance Bill was as follows:—
£ Motor cars, including motor bicycles and motor tricycles 1,021,000 Accessories and component parts of motor cars, motor bicycles, or motor tricycles, other than tyres 975,000 Musical instruments, including gramophones, pianolas, and other similar instruments 72,000 Accessories and component parts of musical instruments, and records and other means of reproducing music 165,000 Clocks, watches, and the component parts of clocks and watches 919,000
£ Cinematograph films imported for the purpose of the exhibition of pictures or other optical effects by means of a cinematograph or other similar apparatus 209,000
It is not possible to indicate what proportion of the total cost of collection of Customs and Excise duties is attributable to the duties in question.
War Wealth (Taxation)
asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intend to impose a tax on war-made wealth; and, if so, when the Bill for that purpose will be introduced?
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Cabinet have now come to a decision in regard to the taxation of what is called War wealth.
My right hon Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer hopes to be in a position to make a statement on this subject in the course of a few days.
Can the hon. Gentleman confirm the statement that the Finance Committee of the Cabinet turned down this idea?
I am not a Member of that Committee.
Conscience Money
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if his acknowledgment of 10s. conscience money from Liverpool in the personal columns of a leading London paper on 3rd May last cost the Treasury 11s.; and, if so, will he consider means by which this burden on the taxpayer can be avoided?
The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the last part, under the arrangements at present in force all acknowledgments of the kind referred to are inserted in the "Times" unless the contributor specifically asks for the acknowledgment to appear in some other newspaper, and no charge is made by the "Times" unless, owing to a request of the contributor, special arrangements have to be made for the insertion of the notice in a particular column ( e.g., the Personal column), in which case the normal advertisement charge would be made. Consequently in the vast majority of cases no charge falls on the taxpayer. In this case a mistake was unfortunately made, and a charge incurred which might have been avoided.
Is it not a fact, that calling attention to this remarkable extravagance has cost the country 30s.?
Hospital Service
asked the Minister of Health whether it is proposed to create a new hospital service to which the municipalities must co-operate with the State and what is the exact policy of the Department towards existing voluntary hospitals on the one hand, and towards general hospital provision on the other?
It is not intended, as I have stated in reply to previous questions, that the Government should take over voluntary hospitals, but I cannot undertake within the limits of a reply to a Parliamentary question, to discuss the exact relation of voluntary institutions to the general scheme of public health services.
In view of the financial position of the voluntary hospitals to-day, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of issuing a statement of policy at an early date?
We are giving this matter our attention from day to day, and I think I shall be able to make a satisfactory statement before long.
Ireland
Inland Revenue Offices (Destruction)
asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland if it is anticipated that the destruction of the Inland Revenue offices throughout Ireland will reduce the amount of taxation to be received from that country?
The damage to which my hon. Friend refers will tend to cause delay in the collection of Income Tax in Ireland, but it is not anticipated that the ultimate yield of the tax will be seriously affected by what has occurred.
Treasury Bonds Purchased
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the amount of the new Treasury Bonds which have been purchased?
The receipts into the Exchequer up to and including Saturday, May 29th, were £5,025,000. This represents, broading speaking, subscriptions up to May 22nd. The total is disappointing, though the number of individual subscribers is good.
Business of the House
Will the Leader of the House say what is the business for Friday and what opportunity will be given the House for discussing the Hunter Report regarding occurrences in India?
On Friday we propose to take the Second Reading of the Rent Restriction Bill.
As regards the Hunter Report, the opportunity of discussing that will be on the Vote for the salary of the Secretary of State for India, which will be arranged for in the usual way.
What about the Gas Regulations Bill? Will it be taken to-day or when?
I do not yet know.
Bill Presented
Public Libraries (Ireland) Bill,
"to amend Section Eight of The Public Libraries (Ireland) Act, 1855, and for other purposes incidental thereto," presented by Mr. DENIS HENRY; supported by Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Hamar Greenwood; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 133.]
New Member Sworn
Baronet, K.C., for the Borough of Sunderland ( on appointment as Chief Secretary for Ireland ).
Blind Persons (Pensions and Expenses)
Committee to consider of making such provision, out of moneys provided by Parliament, as is required for paying such pensions to blind persons who have attained the age of fifty as, under the Old Age Pensions Acts, 1908 to 1919, they would be entitled to receive had they attained the age of seventy, and any expenses incurred by any Government Department or local pension committees in connection therewith, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to promote the welfare of blind persons (King's Recommendation signified), To-morrow.—[ Lord Edmund Talbot. ]
Norwich Corporation Bill,
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Firearms Bill (Lords)
Read the First time; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 132.]
Orders of the Day
Supply [11th Allotted Day]
Considered in Committee.
[MR. WHITEY in the Chair.]
Navy Estimates, 1920–21
Royal Naval Reserves
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £479,800, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the Royal Naval Reserve, the Royal Fleet Reserve, and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, etc., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
Perhaps I may explain that, on the last occasion when this Vote was taken, my right hon Friend the First Lord, and my right hon. Friend opposite (Air D. Maclean), agreed that, although Vote 7 should be put down again on the first day after the Recess, it would be impossible for him to-day to make a statement with regard to the Reserves. I have consulted my right hon. Friend, both yesterday and to-day, on the subject, and we are in the same position as we were then, of being unable to make a statement to the Committee with regard to that particular force; but I may say that considerable progress has been made behind the scenes—in other words, in preparing the scheme—since then. My right hon. Friend and I decided that, on the whole, it would be better to wait, before making a statement upon it at all, until we are prepared with every item of detail in connection with this complicated scheme. At the same time, the Committee will bear in mind that, on Vote 12, the question can be raised on the salary of the First Lord. I hope, therefore, that the Committee will not press for any further details to-day. I may say that we have made further inquiries as to the effect that might be produced by attempting to recruit for the Force until we are prepared to put the whole of the details before them, and, although, of course, re- cruiting is at the moment more or less prejudiced by our not being able to give the details of the scheme, at the same time we believe that, in the long run, it will be better for the Service, for the House, and for everyone concerned, if, when the scheme is put forward, it is put forward in its entirety.
One expected, in view of the position in which the Admiralty found itself when we last discussed this Vote, that the Executive would not he able to lay their scheme before us to-day. I assume that, under these circumstances, this Vote will be again withdrawn, until the scheme is ready and the Committee can pronounce its opinion upon it and vote the necessary money in support of it.
I thought that my right hon Friend opposite had agreed on the last occasion, but if there is any misunderstanding I will withdraw the Vote at once. I thought, however, that it had been arranged that we might get all the Votes except 8 and 12. If my right hon. Friend (Air D. Maclean) will turn to the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will see that, towards the close of the Debate, my right hon. Friend the First Lord said:—
"The suggestion is that we should withdraw Vote 7, take Vote 9, and then put down Vote 10 and the remaining Votes, including Vote 7, for the Tuesday after we reassemble. Of course I cannot undertake that by that date the scheme will be ready, but, in any case, I understand that Vote 12, the Vote for the Minister's salary, is to be held over until the latter end of the Session in the usual way, in order that, if there be any fresh situation or question of policy, it can be raised."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th May, 1920, col. 1,181, vol. 129.]
If there be any misunderstanding, I certainly will withdraw the Vote. I am sorry my right hon. Friend is not here.
It certainly was not in my mind that, at any rate as far as I personally was concerned, I would agree to vote any money until we had the complete scheme before the Committee. It would stultify the whole of our opposition.
In those circumstances I shall not press the Vote.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £5,209,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Works, Buildings, and Repairs, at Home and Abroad, including the cost of Superintendence, Purchase of Sites, Grants in Aid, and other Charges connected therewith, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
It has been the custom, I think, for either the Civil Lord or the Parliamentary Secretary to make a statement with regard to Vote 10 as a whole, before a general discussion takes place. The Vote is a large one, and naturally covers a great deal of ground. As the Committee will be aware, it has always been the practice that the Admiralty would not begin any new construction work until the House had approved of the Vote in Committee. Consequently I have endeavoured, to the best of my ability, to forecast in some way the criticisms which might be raised on the Vote, and I will attempt, as briefly as possible, to meet those points of which some hon. Members have been kind enough to give me notice. I should, perhaps, admit, first of all, that it is impossible for me, after such a very short tenure of office, to be able to grasp the intricacies of such a great Service, and I apologise to the Committee on that ground. It is also quite obvious that, following so distinguished a predecessor, who, after so many years in office, was such a master of all its details, the Committee at the moment are under a great disadvantage in having someone else to pick up the multifarious threads of such a Service, and to attempt to follow in his footsteps. However, the Committee on the last occasion were kindness itself so far as I was concerned, and if it is impossible for me to-day to give details on these matters I will endeavour, as I did on the last occasion, to follow the Debate up by sending to hon. Members individual replies to the various points they raise. This Vote 10 is actually a reduction of some £458,000—£5,209,000, as against £5,667,000 odd last year. For the purpose of concentrating attention on what I thought might be likely to be the criticisms of the Committee I put some of the items together, beginning with the question of wireless telegraphic stations. In criticising one station one is practically criticising them all, as they are part of a scheme and are more or less interdependent one upon the other. There are items of expenditure at Bathurst in West Africa, £8,400 for the building and equipment of a wireless telegraphic station, Demerara £2,000, Jamaica £3,000 odd, and at Horsea Island £3,100, making a total of some £17,000. It is part of a general scheme for wireless telegraphy which is being carried out, and I do not think £17,000 in connection with such a very important service is really a large item to ask for. The work is partly done by private enterprise and partly by the Admiralty staff. If there is a question as to any particular station or if there is any particular point to be raised, that will be met by my right hon. Friend later on.
With regard to oil fuel depots, which is a much larger item and a matter that raises a question of policy perhaps much more than anything else in the Vote. £51,000 is put down for Gibraltar, Hong Kong £50,000, Jamaica £33,000, Malta £84,000, Plymouth £132,000, Portland £132,000, Port said £25,000, Rosyth, for special equipment necessary for protecting from fire those very large works, £18,500, Port Edgar £36,850, and Glasgow £118,000. The oil fuel depots are consequent of course upon the policy of constructing our newer ships with oil-consuming boilers instead of coal, and although it may be that certain of these stations will be of no use to us in time of war or probably, looking at it from the strategical point of view, will not be used in time of war, still, the question arises as to the disposition of the various fleets and the supply of oil for them even in peace time. For instance, it might be said that Hong Kong, Jamaica and Portland would not, from the strategical point of view, require these bases for oil fuel, but when one takes the whole scheme of the oiling of the Navy in some future year when the construction of new shipping has brought us into the position of having more ships under oil than under coal, it is absolutely necessary to have these large reservoirs and to have them in such positions that they are easily accessible, even in peacetime, and that is the reason of the various sums I have mentioned. The total Vote for the construction and carrying on of this work, some of which, of course, is continuation work, is about £671,000. I think all those who have studied the question will agree that if you are to have oil ships at all the Admiralty would be wanting in foresight if it did not make proper arrangements for the most convenient and proper dealing with the question of the supply of oil.
4.0 P.M.
The next point I wish to raise is that of the coastguard stations. The Votes are all together, totalling £20,000. The question of coastguard stations and the allocation of cost was discussed some years ago. The cost was supposed to fall on the Customs, the Board of Trade and the Admiralty in certain proportions, but latterly the policy has been to re-absorb the coastguard service, and in the development of that policy the question has arisen as to making up the coastguard stations throughout the country to their proper standard. I asked for a special note to be made for my guidance with regard to the position to-day, and I am told the position is that the duties of the coastguards are now more varied than they ever were before, and that the retention of the force at its pre-war strength is considered to be essential in the interests of the country. The coastguard was originally established as a Customs force, but in 1856 was transferred by Act of Parliament to the Navy in order to make better provision for the defence of the coast, and also for the more ready manning of His Majesty's Navy. That was in case of war or emergency. I am told that since that year the coastguards have continued to carry out duties in connection with the protection of the revenue, and were the force to be demolished or materially reduced or a number of stations to be closed, the result to the revenue would be very considerable and an outbreak of smuggling and such like would undoubtedly occur. In addition to patrolling the coasts to prevent smuggling the coastguards carry out duties of very great importance in connection with the saving of life from shipwreck, and in recent years hundreds of lives have been saved owing to the watchfulness of the coastguards and their quickness in informing the various lifeboat stations and conveying life-saving apparatus to the scene of the wreck. At the majority of the stations there is a Rocket apparatus, and all the coastguard ranks and ratings are highly skilled in its use. Many stations are also provided with cliff lines and ladders, and several gallant rescues have been effected by these means in recent months. Huts have been erected by the Board of Trade on many headlands and at other points dangerous to shipping, and watch is kept in the majority of these huts, which are kept by the coastguards in rough and stormy weather. These huts are connected by telephone to the nearest coastguard station so immediately warning can be given if a vessel be seen to be in any danger and if there be any necessity for them to turn out. A considerable number of the peace complement of the coastguard mans the Shore Wireless Telegraph and Direction Finding Stations. The former are required for communication with the Fleet, and the latter are used both by the Fleet and by the Mercantile Marine. There are also signal stations, 162 in number, which are established on many of the prominent headlands, and these stations carry out visual communication with the ships, and a number of them also perform work for Lloyd's in connection with the Admiralty-Lloyd's Agreement. On the outbreak of the late War approximately one-third of the Coastguard Force was embarked in the Fleet. Later, however, owing to the increase in the radius of submarines and to the air raids, it was found necessary to establish a system of coast-watching all round the coasts of the United Kingdom, and the additional personnel required was made up of volunteers and boy scouts.
It will be obvious to everyone, I think, that we must place our Coastguard Service, which in reality is a reserve for coastal defence, in a better position, in case of further trouble. The policy of the Admiralty at the moment is not to have our Coastguard Service denuded on the outbreak of war, but to detain the castguards as coast watchers, for coast defence purposes. The coast-watching organisation performed very valuable services during the War, principally in reporting the movements of enemy submarines, and hostile aircraft crossing the coast, preventing enemy submarines from landing spies, or resting in a secluded bay, watching the movements of suspicious persons on the coast, preventing illicit signalling to enemy submarines, and collecting intelligence. The present coastguard complement, 3,000, according to Admiralty opinion, is the irreducible minimum from which the efficient coast- watching organisation can be built up in the event of future hostilities. The whole question has been most thoroughly gone into, and the principal duties of the coastguards in the future can be summarised very shortly as follows: Watching the coast for wrecks, advising the lifeboat authorities of casualties, manning lifeboat apparatus, preventing smuggling, commercial maritime signalling, salvage, registration of fishing boats, collection of fisheries statistics, enforcing the provisions of the Sea-Fishery Acts, recruiting, reporting shifting of navigation marks, irregularities in lights, the burial of carcases, recovery of corpses, and meteorological reports. Those are the functions of the Coastguard Service for the future, and the Committee, I think, will agree to a force of 3,000, and that in order to make the force effective, it is necessary to take into consideration their quarters round the coast and keep them maintained as proper habitations. Some of them during the War got run down very much, and consequently steps must be taken to put them in a proper condition.
What about new buildings?
I am not quite sure whether new buildings will be absolutely necessary or not, but, if they be necessary, my hon. and gallant Friend will understand that they will be carried out only after the closest inspection on the spot, and after everything has been done to ensure that they are placed in a proper position. I do not think that the Committee, if it assents to the general principle of a Coastguard Service, will raise any objection to new buildings.
What proportion of the £20,000 is for new buildings?
I am informed that there are no new buildings in contemplation. I wanted next to refer to Osea Islands and the motor boat base there. Some hon. members may care to hear what view the Admiralty take of that base for motor boats. It will be seen that there is a sum of £99,000 for various works at this coastal motor boat base, and here again a question of policy is raised. I have consulted my advisers and also the First Lord, because I thought it was only fair to the Committee that it should have a full explanation where questions of policy are involved rather than that we should wait until someone had criticised the Vote without being in possession of such information as I am able to give. The Coastal Motor Boat Service was developed for particular purposes in the North Sea in the first instance, and since the War it has been shown that these boats are able effectively to protect ships and to carry out more work than was at first thought conceivable. The future scope of these vessels is naturally an unknown quantity. Some Members of the Committee, like myself, may have seen one flash past the House of Commons while we were enjoying luncheon. I dare say, though I did not have time to see, that she may be an advanced type, but at all events this class of vessel is rapidly improving, because ingenious persons are constantly working at the type, and no one can foretell what difference a few months or years may make in this particular craft. We are more or less in the experimental stage regarding these very fast boats; their future, as a weapon, is uncertain and must depend on their development and on what counter measures can be devised.
Their functions, as laid down by the Post-War Questions Committee, are very generally concurred in, and it is proposed to carry out exercises in September, in order to observe them and to ascertain what further developments may be necessary. It is necessary to explain that Osca is kept primarily as a training and experimental establishment, and not as a war base, and that it is more economical to do this than to build another base elsewhere as long as these craft remain a war weapon. The training establishment is necessary for the personnel, who will only remain attached to that particular Service for a comparatively few years. Therefore, I hope that in any criticism of this particular item two points will be borne in mind. First, that it is largely to enable us to carry on experiments; and, secondly, if it be condemned in any way as a base, that we shall be compelled by circumstances to go elsewhere, which will mean a considerable cost to the State, because we have this station, and it is as satisfactory as it can be for the particular purpose for which it is intended. With regard to Osborne, it will be unnecessary for me to do more than refer hon. Mem- bers to the remarks of the First Lord when we last had the Vote before the Committee. He pointed out that it was necessary to continue Osborne for another twelve months.
He said that it might be necessary.
I do not think that he used the word "might." Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will look at the OFFICIAL REPORT Of 17th May. He will see that my right hon. Friend then said: that they may be convenient for all purposes, not only in connection with the health and education of the men, but so that they may have the necessary recreation which they deserve when they go ashore. The base is also invaluable for the purposes of economy and the accessibility of material. I have had special notes prepared in connection with this matter, because I have not had an opportunity of visiting this particular base. Therefore I must speak only from the advice I have from those who are qualified to speak. My right hon. Friend the First Lord is thoroughly familiar with the base, and he will be able to clear up any matters which were raised during the Debate. The note I have had prepared says in regard to the educational side that "it is very important to give the junior ratings educational instruction and to afford all ratings opportunities for improving their education and passing for higher rating. A base, by saving time and boatwork, renders this feasible. Without it the 10,000 ratings in destroyers would be penalised in comparison with the men in the big ships." In order to give the full benefit of the instruction and to promote full efficiency, adequate facilities such as cannot possibly be given in a depot ship are required. The policy all round has been as far as possible to substitute shore training, with all the conveniences of better educational facilities and health possibilities, for sea training. In a depot of this sort where we can concentrate a large number of these destroyers and take the men ashore and allow them freedom it will be obvious that it is a much better plan than having to take them to and fro to large depot ships, which in the long run cost the country more. The complicated modern armament necessitates far higher training than was previously the case; moreover this training must be continuous. Adequate instruction can only be maintained where destroyers are based in penns and shore buildings are available as instructional sheds. The necessity for higher training applies equally to officers and men, and all possible facilities are given. Health, recreation and comfort are all catered for. The ease with which daily victualling, periodical storing and supervision of all material can be carried out effects great saving. I am informed that it is difficult to put down in black and white the actual saving, but it is quite obvious that there is a large saving in dealing with the mass in this way rather than isolating them into smaller units. I have obtained particulars of the economies effected under the several heads, and I am informed that as a result of this destroyer base boat work is practically abolished, thereby saving personnel fuel and upkeep expenses. The whole of the time lost in boats is saved and all stores can be obtained by a fourth of the number of men required when the vessel is in the stream. Oil is laid on in the penns, thereby saving oilers and crews. Water and coal are supplied at the penns, thus saving water boats, colliers and crews, and also the need for distilling at high cost. As vessels are safe in penns, steam does not have to be raised in bad weather, thus saving a considerable amount of fuel and wear and tear. Light is supplied at a fraction of the cost when made by each destroyer. Capital outlay and upkeep costs for moorings are saved by penns. Two large depot ships are saved by using a base of this kind, and I am informed that the whole thing is a great success up to the present time. Whatever criticism there may be in regard to the position of the base or in regard to the system generally must be left to the Committee.
I should like to refer to the Vote for stores and tools, for which £12,000 has been put down this year as against £1,000 last year. This Vote, which is under subhead "M," is, if I may use the term, merely a banking account, because the system in the Admiralty is to arrange for the purchase of all tools and stores which are necessary to be bought each year as far as possible in advance, and the materials for constructive work are sent out under the various sub-heads to the yards as they are required. The difference between this year and last year in the amount of the Vote is accounted for by the difficulty in estimating beforehand for the use of the larger class of what may be described as "tools," such as dredgers, very heavy cranes, very heavy engines, heavy locomotives, stone crushers, pile drivers, etc. These are materials which come under Vote M. The system has been that a valuation of the tools, and of the new tools as well, is made at the beginning of the year, and then the value of the new tools which are placed in the various Admiralty yards for constructive purposes are also taken into account. We also take into account those tools which are put in to replace other tools, and which are put in as an advantage over the old tools. Then there is the cost of the repairs. The cost of the handling of all this vast amount of stores has also to be taken into account. When that has been done, the experience of the previous year is taken in order to guide the compilers of Vote M how they shall deal with the Vote for the current year, and it appears that the 8½ per cent. which was calculated last year as the rate which might be reasonably expected to cover this year is not likely to be sufficient. Therefore, the Vote has gone up to £12,000, but I am told that that will not be sufficient to cover it, owing to the fact that some of the larger cranes and engines were not used to their full power, because the works were not ready for them, and for other reasons. I have made close inquiry into this Vote, in order to see how far there were special reasons for the Vote being increased from £1,000 to £12,000. When we consider the very big housekeeping account, or banking account, I think the Committee will be satisfied with the Estimate.
I am asked how it is that the Navy Estimates this year do not include any contribution towards recreation grounds for the men. If hon. Members will turn to Vote 10, sub-head (C), perhaps it will not be necessary to raise this matter under Vote 11, sub-head (Z). It will be seen that some provision is made in one Vote, and part in another. In Vote 11, sub-head (Z), provision is made for the following grants in connection with the maintenance of recreation grounds. Portsmouth, Royal Naval Barracks, £100 per year; His Majesty's Gunnery Establishment, Whale Island, Horse Fund, £100; upkeep of grounds, £100; "Fisgard," £100; Devonport Royal Naval Barracks, £125; Trevol Range, £30; "Indus," £75; Chatham, Royal Naval Barracks, £100; Royal Naval and Military Recreation Grounds, £75; St. Mary's Island, £30; Sheerness, Royal Naval Depot, £260; Shotley Training Establishment, £70; and the question of an increase to £160 is under consideration. Malta, His Majesty's Dockyard, £50; and the Royal Naval Racquets Court, £60. Trincomalee, £75. Grants for recreational purposes (tennis, billiards), etc., also made to the officers and men stationed at Ascension Island, £100. At certain W.T. Stations (usually £10 in each case) grants are made in view of the isolated position of these status and the lack of amenities. Provision is also made in Vote 10, sub-head (C), I think, for expenditure in connection with the extension of a recreation room at Portsmouth. These figures may explain details which some hon. Members may have considered were rather hidden away. They show what contribution has been made in connection with this side of naval life.
The hon. Member for Portsmouth (Air T. Bramsdon) asked me a specific question in regard to Portsmouth, but, before answering him, as a general question is involved, my right hon. Friend the First Lord has authorised me to make the following statement, which affects all the Royal yards at the moment: Under subhead (B) of part 1, there are various sums for improvement of plant in the Royal Dockyards. In connection with the use of this plant the Committee may like to know that, in addition to the two oil tankers already building for Government service, it has now been definitely decided to build other ships to private order, so as to reduce the discharges at the Royal Dockyards as far as possible.
Is that in all the dockyards.
Yes, in all the Royal Dockyards. I am authorised to make that statement in order to cover all the yards, before I deal with the specific question which my hon. Friend (Sir T. Bramsdon) has asked me to answer. He has asked me specifically about items that are being carried out in or about Portsmouth this financial year. I will run rapidly through the list, in order that the Committee may see what is being done. For the Dockyard continuation services there are works in connection with three-phase extra high tension generating plant £1,500; crane track, No. 2 Basin, £1,000; locks C and D, modifications, £500; conversion of war college into four residences £3,470; dining-room accommodation for work-men £1,650. Then in Naval Ordnance Depots, railway from Priddy's Hard to Bedenham, £2,200; at Bedenham two shell stores and six magazines, £11,100; charging and housing arrangements fur fireless locomotives, £2,500. At Frater Point, mine depot, £88,000. At Vernon, shore establishment, £245,300, including £110,000, as will be observed in the footnote, which arises through the Navy absorbing buildings belonging to the War Office. The old fort has been more convenient for our use than for the War Office, but we had to provide the War Office with extra buildings, and £110,000 is our contribution towards that exchange which is suitable for both services. Then at Stoke's Bay there is torpedo experimental station, £2,000. At Osborne College there is £2,450 for improvements. Then generally there are: Dredging—part of the £195,100 on page 94—£60,000, and magazines—fire precautions, £11,000. For newly-introduced services in the Dockyards there are gunnery pattern shop £3,050; garage for lorries £5,000; new coppersmith's shop £5,000; South Railway Jetty renewals £6,050; pitch and boat-house jetties reconstruction £20,000; renewal of railways £5,000; reconstruction of roads £10,000; electric welding scheme £4,180. For naval ordnance depots there are Priddy's Hard, shell pier staging £3,850; and powder pier No. 2 addition to head £2,750. At Bedenham there is additional railway connection £10,730. At Horsea Island there are wireless station, duplication of cables £1,600; and experimental wireless station, replacing existing buildings, £3,100. The last item is Royal Marine Artillery barracks at Eastney—cookhouse—£2,000, making a total of £514,980.
The last question which was raised was in reference to the subject of cement. We have not turned down the scheme which has been referred to. The Admiralty are still hoping that the promoters will put up a concrete proposal. When that is done it will get all the consideration which any scheme of the sort in these hard times deserves. My hon. Friend who gave notice of this matter may rest assured that if the point is brought up in the ordinary way later on it will meet with most sympathetic consideration. The difficulty is to pin down those who are actually promoting the scheme to an actual definite programme. When that is done the question will meet with every consideration. I have done my best to anticipate the various heads where policy and finance are so interwoven, and my right hon. Friend (Mr. Long), with his usual kindness in these matters, has come down in order to make up with his firsthand knowledge, and, after so much time spent as the head of the Admiralty, with his wide experience, to meet any criticism that may be made on the more or less admittedly official view which I have had to give to the Committee in the circumstances.
I may remind the Committee that we must not, on Vote 10, traverse the subject matter of Vote 8. The discussion on that Vote must be taken when we are dealing with the question of Mercantile construction in the dockyards.
I beg to move that the Vote be reduced by £1,000,000.
I hope that the First Lord will see his way to promise a substantial reduction before this goes to a division. It sounds a large sum by which to reduce the Vote, but it is not large in view of the amount which is asked for buildings-£5,250,000. I admit that building costs very much more than it did before the War, but if hon. Members will turn to pages 4 and 5, they will see that in the times of very great naval expansion to meet the German menace—in the years 1911 to 1914—the sums voted when we had the same difficulties with oil fuel, and when we were still completing some of the big training establishments, were £3,000,000 in 1911–12, just under £3,000,000 in 1912–13, and £3,500,000 in 1913–14. Now, in the year 1920, when we are quite supreme at sea—at a time when our prestige never stood higher—we are asked to vote a sum of £5,250,000. But there is another important point. Every man who can build ought to be employed today in building houses for the working classes. Every bit of building material that is available ought to be used for the same purpose. My right hon. Friend is using up building material, and putting up prices against ordinary builders and local authorities, who are trying to get on with building schemes.
Let me make a brief examination of one or two of these unnecessary and inadvisable proposals which are now being made. I listened with despair to the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Air J. Craig) who introduced this Vote. Apparently, according to him, anything that is in any way desirable, the Navy must have. That was not the case before the War. We had then to do with what the country could afford. We can afford very much less now, and we can well do without many of these items. For instance, a very big Vote is asked for Chatham. I ask the Admiralty in all seriousness whether they think that they will be able to keep Chatham going for 25 years, because I have my doubts about it. The hon. Member for Plymouth can afford to laugh at this, naturally, but Chatham was of very little use in the late War owing to the shallow depths of water in the approaches. The Navy has too many bases at the present moment, and they must be cut down when we at last come down to earth in these matters, and realise that we are a poor country. Rosyth, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Chatham are four large naval bases. One of them at least can be done away with, and Chatham should be turned over at once to shipping. Therefore, any expenditure on Chatham should be examined with double care, as any money spent to-day on new buildings and enterprises in Chatham will be found in a few years to have been wasted.
As to the coastguard stations, the hon. and gallant Gentleman makes out a very sentimental case for their retention, and talks of their saving wrecks and recovering corpses from the sea, and the splendid work they did in the War. I would 'remind the Committee that the coastguards service in the years before the War was reduced, and it cannot seriously be maintained that the reduction then was a mistake. The coastguard was of great value in the middle of the last century when we had a very meagre naval reserve, but in the years before the War we gradually built up an extraordinarily fine naval reserve of mercantile marine officers and men, fishermen, and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, and the coastguard service became of less and less value to the fighting fleet. Of course, it was of great value in the War, but compared with the years in the middle of the last century its value declined very much. All around the coast in many places we have empty coastguard stations that have been shut up, following out the policy pursued before the War, and in those circumstances it is extremely astonishing to find unnecessary new building going on.
I was not quite sure when I made my statement whether it covered new buildings or not, but I have discovered since that none of this £20,000 is being spent on new building, but merely on repairing and bringing up to date old buildings.
My hon. and gallant Friend did not give me time. I understood that this £20,000 did not represent new buildings, but the total estimate for the work is £83,000, and I would like to know with certainty that none of this money is for new buildings?
I understand not.
That disposes of that point. But still we are spending money on bricks and mortar for the coastguard service while there are around the country many empty coastguard stations which could be brought into use once more if required. But the Committee should look on this question of the coastguards without sentiment and coldly. I believe that the Air Service has proposed to take over much of the coast watching, and I believe that great economy can be achieved both in wartime and peace time if the Air Force took all coast watching. Most of the services performed by coastguards in the way of reporting steamers and the like is really peace and not war service, and ought not to come on the Admiralty. I know that this is an old anomoly. The same thing applies to lighthouses, and so on, which are also on the Navy Votes. I believe that the Coastguard Seer vice could be very largely reduced with out any loss to the fighting efficiency of the fleet or the defence of the country. Its place could be taken by an air ser vice very largely, and also, if put on a permanent basis, by a Coast Watching Territorial Force to be organised again for anti-submarine work if at any time we should be involved in war.
With regard to the proposed oil fuel storage at Jamaica, in spite of the very lucid remarks of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Air J. Craig) I must make one or two criticisms. We are asked to vote this year £38,000 of a total cost of £47,000. I understand the hon. and gallant Gentleman to say that this was a peace time need—that it was quite true that strategical reasons were against an oil fuel station in the West Indies for war purposes, but that in view of the stations of our fleet it was necessary for peace purposes. If that is the case it is inadmissible. Every penny we vote should be for fighting services only and not for peace services. I am afraid the Admiralty is drifting back into the frame of mind of some of its departments before the War, when they looked upon the Navy, not as the first shield of defence of the Empire in. war time, but as a sort of pleasant service into which the fools of the family could be put by a limited class of the population. That is a bad spirit. At the beginning of the War in my flotilla, we had an Engineer Warrant Officer who complained bitterly that if he had known there was going to be a war he would never have entered the Navy. He was a deeply religious man, although he had spent 25 years in the Navy, and he woke up to find that the Navy was required to fight. In the next War we shall either be involved against the United States or the United States will be an ally or neutral. If we are involved against the United States, Jamaica is much too far in the enemy's sphere of influence. I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman admitted that Jamaica could not be relied upon as an oil fuel depot in such a case. If the United States was an ally we would not need Jamaica, and if she were neutral the war would not be in the Atlantic and Jamaica would not be required.
Another item to which I must refer is £6,300 for residences for officers at Wei-Hai-Wei. The same argument applies there as in the case of Jamaica. We are allied with Japan and do not need that little subsidiary base. I do not think it could be relied upon as a base of the Fleet. With regard to Osea Island, I think it is a very extraordinary thing that we are asked to vote £9,000. When the coastal motor boats were invented in the latter part of 1916 the officers in charge vainly asked for Osea Island as their base. It is an almost uninhabited island in the Essex reach of the Thames and would have been very suitable for keeping secret this wonderful new weapon of war. The Admiralty then refused the request and the coastal motor boats were forced to Queenborough, where they actually lay alongside a pier on the other side of which the boats from Flushing and the Hook of Holland used to come in with foreigners of all sorts on board. I do not wonder that, when finally we used the motor boats for attacking the enemy, the Germans knew something about them. Now, apparently, the Admiralty are retracing their steps and approve of Osea Island being turned into a base exactly three years too late. The base for the coastal motor boats should be on the west coast, I should say somewhere at the southern entrance to the At. George's Channel. Their war base should be in the Straits of Malacca or the Straits of Sunda.
At Portsmouth it is proposed to spend £3,500 this year in converting the Naval War College into special residences. The College has done excellent service as a training school for the Navy for well over 100 years. It has historic associations and I think it a great pity that it should fall into disuse. In common with other gallant Members, I had some of my early training there. When we are spending all this money on building new training establishments, why in the name of common sense are we shutting up the Naval War College and turning it into official residences? Surely there are sufficient official residences at Portsmouth to meet the needs of the reduced navy of the future. We are also asked to vote a large sum for a new torpedo experimental station at Stokes Bay. What has happened to the experimental station at Loch Long, which was completed just before the War? It was excellently placed for the purpose. I see an item of £7,000 expenditure on Osborne College. The outlay of such a sum for a period of 12 months, or at the most the one or two years before the college will cease to exist, is indefensible. Apparently we are going to line the building with cement slabs.
The work is being done.
If the work is being done it is useless criticising it. If that is the way money has been spent, I think the Committee should stand up for a great reduction in the remainder of the expenditure.
The position at Osborne was this: It was impossible to move the boys to Dartmouth because there was not room for them, and it was impossible to retain them at Osborne under the conditions obtaining in certain dormitories. This work was undertaken, on my own personal order, after two inspections, in order to avoid the very bad epidemics that had troubled Osborne for some time. As a result, we have had the best year, from the point of view of the health of the boys, that we have had in the history of the College.
5.0 P.M.
Then I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his great success in safeguarding the health of his cadets, and I am sure that the Medical Inspector-General of the Navy must be equally grateful but may I ask whether the building of a new passage-way between two buildings at Osborne, as described by his colleagues, was also necessary for the health of the cadets? After all, the Treasury is not overflowing with money. I am trying to make out a case for saving £1,000,000, and I think we could do it without reducing by one iota the efficiency of the Navy. I turn now to the base for destroyers at Port Edgar. I am sorry to hear that we propose to continue that base. The hon. and gallant Gentleman spoke of the great sums that would be saved by keeping the destroyers in the Penns. I think we had better put them in glass cases right away. We are adopting the German system of training destroyer crews—the system by which the Germans were kept almost continuously in harbour and the destroyers were not the homes of the men. I think the War has shown which was the more successful system. We are apparently turning to the discredited system of trying to train sailors on shore. I know Port Edgar well. It is a magnificent little harbour, and would do admirably as a mercantile harbour for that wealthy part of Scotland. I hope the Admiralty will dispose of it for mercantile purposes. The demand for this very large expenditure requires more explanation than we have had. I would like also to refer to item G on page 95, "purchases of lands and buildings." The money to be spent for purchasing land and buildings this year is over £300,000. That is apart from other sums spent on Votes other than Vote 10. When we have to do that in this year I really think the Committee should know a little more of the details, and why this is necessary. Is this additional to all the other building operations, or is it a separate item. Apparently the Admiralty thinks we need greater shore depôts than we had even before the War. I do not think the country will stand this sort of thing, and what I fear is that there will be a violent reaction and that the Navy and essential sea services will be starved in the lean years ahead if the Admiralty does not economise now. It is because I consider this Vote for building and bricks and mortar is so iniquitous, and because I believe we can reduce it, that I move this reduction.
I do not intend to range over so wide a field or to refer to so many details as those which were covered by the Financial Secretary or by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just spoken. What I wish to emphasise is that every detail of this Vote should be governed by policy. It all depends on policy. The Financial Secretary, whom I would like to congratulate on his statement, told us, amongst other things, that Osborne is to be abolished. That is essentially a question of policy. For years and years I have opposed Osborne and the form of entry which brought about Osborne and I am glad to see that it is now to go. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) referred to the expenditure of £642,000 which is to be spent on shore in connection with the. Vernon torpedo training school at Portsmouth. I am sure it must be profoundly distasteful to the Admiralty to have to face this great expenditure, but it is an expenditure that ought to have been incurred about 20 years ago. The House is familiar with the scandal of the old wooden ships where the officers and men were below par and could not do their work owing to the conditions. This question was discussed in 1894 and at that time those ships were insanitary and unfit for the men to do their work. On the wider question of policy which should govern these Votes, the House will remember that at the beginning of this century we were taking a Mediterranean outlook. That was done under the inspiration of Lord Fisher when he was Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean, and a large expenditure was undertaken on bricks and mortar there. When Lord Fisher came to the Admiralty in 1904 he began to take the North Sea outlook, and a few survivals of that outlook are still with us. I do not know how far the expenditure which is being incurred at Rosyth is simply expenditure in which the Admiralty find themselves in a cleft stick and which they are forced to go on with. They cannot themselves wish to be incurring in this year an expediture of £643,000 at Rosyth when we have lost altogether the North Sea outlook and our outlook must necessarily be a Pacific one. When I turn to the Pacific the only item I can find beyond that for £6,000 mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member at Wei-Hai-Wei is an item of £50,000 for an oil depot at Hong Kong. We come here to a question of policy. If your outlook is a Pacific outlook, is your great Fleet going to be concentrated on the Pacific or at home? If it is not in the Pacific and if you start building oil depots at Hong Kong you have got to defend them and the dockyards by soldiers, for the Fleet is not there to do it. That is a question which concerns the Army Estimates, and we ought to know later on when we come to the Army Estimates what provision the Army is making for Hong Kong. The question is one which I cannot discuss on these Estimates.
The hon. and gallant Member for Hull comes along now and proposes to reduce this Vote by £1,000,000. The last time I heard him speak he said that Hong Kong was no longer of any use and that we ought to establish a great base at Singapore. Has he any conception of the expenditure involved in constructing new dockyards, as, for instance, at Rosyth? Instead of proposing to reduce this Vote by £1,000,000, he was, by his suggestion as to Singapore, suggesting that it should be increased by several million pounds. I grant that strategical arguments may be in favour of Singapore, but the Admiralty have to take the existing situation as they find it. They find that Hong Kong possesses great docks, is able to build ships and has great repairing resources, and are they suddenly to abandon it and go to Singapore? They cannot; they are bound by what they find and to carry out the most economical policy. They will have to tell the House some time or other what is to be the distribution of the Fleet in regard to these matters. Is it to be concentrated at home or are we to have a great Pacific Fleet? Even if we do not have a great Pacific Fleet, we still have to contemplate sending a great Fleet to those waters, and that Fleet would expect to find great oil fuel depots established for them, as without them we would be unable to send them there. Those are essentially questions which must come before the Imperial Defence Committee, and I do hope the Committee will consider them in relation to the general policy of the country.
I cannot miss the opportunity of endeavouring to explain that it is not the general feeling of the Navy that we want to run the Navy as water-tight compartments. Before the War the whole idea seemed to be that we should lop off the coastguards and give them to the Board of Trade and lop off other branches and confine ourselves to building "Dreadnoughts." I do not hold that idea. I think everything affecting the sea affects the Navy and affects the Admiralty. I should be loath indeed to see the control of the coast taken out of the hands of seamen under the control of the Admiralty. I do not think at the present time that any Member of this House will be content that our coast defence should depend entirely on aviation. I can only speak from my own experience, but I know the difficulties we had through having duplicated services practically doing the same work. There is only one system by means of which you can control the service economically and efficiently, and that is by having it under one head. Therefore I would urge the Committee to seriously consider the coastguard service as part of the sea service which therefore should be under the Admiralty. Members of the House ought to remember that the Navy has other duties beyond actual fighting and sailing on the sea. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull referred to the building of the depot at Jamaica. I frankly confess I do not think we can discuss matters of naval policy and strategy on the floor of this House. It is important that matters of that kind should be settled on the recommendations of the Committee of Imperial Defence by the Cabinet, and that the Admiralty and the other officers should carry out their instructions. That is the only way in which we can have a definite policy carried out. I can say that we have in Jamaica one of the finest harbours in the Indies, but it lacks some facilities which a harbour should have. It is possible to foresee a time, though perhaps a far distant time, when we shall require to use the harbour of Port Royal very largely and also for merchant shipping. The building of an oil fuel depot at Jamaica as part of our overseas policy is a step which I heartily endorse.
With regard to the question of coastguards I would like to endorse everything which the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Air R. Hall) has said, but I would like to go a little further. We have had during the last year two or three cases where the coast guards have clearly been insufficient in numbers for the duties they had to perform. I refer particularly to the case of the s.s. "Treveal" which occurred off St. Alban's Head, and there was a delay in that instance of no less than twelve hours in informing the lifeboat authorities of the wreck. That delay was directly responsible, so far as can be ascertained, for the loss of no less than 36 lives. Furthermore, when the survivors took to their boats in a last desperate endeavour to get to the beach they made signals to the coastguard station saying that they were abandoning the ship, but when they got to the beach the coastguards were unable to render them any assistance. Assistance was rendered to them most gallantly I believe by the local vicar and one other man. There was another case off the coast of Scotland where a fishing smack went down and great and serious delay took place in informing the life-boat authority. The reason on this occasion was that they were unable to warn the life-boat crew owing to the fact that one of the coastguards was on leave and the other three were unable to keep a night watch. Therefore they did not know what had happened until the local policeman told them. There was a case of a steamer which drifted from Beachy Head to Dungeness the whole way down the Channel, and its signals of distress were never passed to the life-boats. I think part of the difficulty has arisen through a division of coast watching. I think there has been great doubt on the part of the coastguard authorities and on the part of the Admiralty as to who is responsible and whether it was the Admiralty or the Board of Trade. Both Departments are concerned, and I would press on the First Lord that the duty of coast watching should be unified, and that it should be all brought under one Department, and that Department the Admiralty. I hope the Admiralty will not lose sight of the case of the Treveal which I have mentioned, as it is really a very grave case, and from the particulars which I have, I am fairly well satisfied that it points to an insufficient number of men engaged in the coastguard service. With regard to Osborne, I agree with what the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone (Commander Bellairs) said about all these questions being governed by policy, and it is true we can hardly discuss this question of Osborne without at the same time discussing other naval training establishments. We have Dartmouth and we have Osborne, but we also have another naval cadet training establishment, and I should like to know why it is necessary really to go into further expenditure on Osborne when at the same time we are starting a new training establishment at another place.
The question of Osea Island has also been brought up. I have been in close touch with several of the officers there, and I know that they are really all anxious that the position as regards coastal motor boats in future should be made quite clear. They hope that if possible some statement will be made in the course of this discussion which will make the position quite clear. I hope the Admiralty will not walk back on their decision with regard to Osea Island, because I am quite sure, from what the officers there have told me, that Osea Island is quite one of the very best stations that can possibly be got. The water is smooth, which, I believe, is essential for coastal motor boat work, and there is no doubt that it is quite one of the best stations, only they feel that, owing to the conditions of economy, it may possibly be that the service may be cut down seriously in the future. In regard to Port Edgar, I cannot share the criticisms which have been made on the Admiralty in the course of the Debate, with the exception of one point which has not been mentioned. Are the Admiralty quite satisfied that Port Edgar is really satisfactory for the bigger and "B" class destroyers and the bigger patrol leaders? I know that during the War there were great difficulties at Port Edgar owing to the silting up of the harbour entrance. I should like to know whether that harbour entrance does still silt up very quickly and if the Admiralty are assured that they have got ever or can get over that difficulty. With regard to the general question of Port Edgar as a base, I know it very well indeed. I saw it in the last two years of the War a lot, and I know it is one of the best equipped and one of the finest stations of its sort in existence anywhere. There is one very material point about Port Edgar which I would like to bring to the notice of the Committee, and that is this, that, from the point of view of efficiency in war, in Port Edgar you have a base which permits of the destroyer flotillas being refilled at a maximum possible speed. It can only be done in such a place as Port Edgar, where you have not to depend on the oil fuel lighters, which take a very long time, but where you have pipes laid on. I hope the Admiralty will stick to Port Edgar and that they will be able to assure the Committee that they have been able to get over the difficulties in connection with the silting up of the harbour entrance.
I wish to thank the Financial Secretary for the review of the Vote which he gave us. While he admits that he has not had time to familiarise himself with the work of the Navy, at any rate he has achieved a considerable amount of success in that direction, and if he pursue his education in familiarity with the work at the same rate, he may out-distance his chief in a very short time. With regard to the Vote as it stands, the disappointing feature about it is that it is not reduced nearly far enough. It is a reduction of only some £500,000, and if we go back, as we have done in comparing all these Votes, to the pre-war position of affairs, it is a large increase, because the Vote in the year in which the War began was only £3,500,000 for this purpose, whereas this Vote is for £5,209,000, when we have reached a stage in the Peace negotiations when there is no possible conflict between our fleet and any hostile fleet that one knows about. Until there is a rupture in the Entente it is obvious, of course, that our fleet should not be increased. It has been said in this Debate by a new Member, who, I think, has already gone from the discussion—like so many other Members who have either contributed or listened casually to the discussion of so much money, which is one of the features of this House and Committee on Finance, namely, that while they criticise outside the extravagance of the Government, they always seem to me to be afraid to face the music here in the House, and to discuss these matters adequately with the Government—it has been said by a gallant Rear-Admiral who has left the House, that everything in the garden really is lovely, but what we want to do is not to discuss strategy or policy in the House of Commons, but leave it all to something called the Imperial Defence Committee, and allow my right hon. Friends opposite, with their advisers at the Admiralty, to carry through whatever is suggested to them, and come down here year by year, in a kind of "hush" ship. Then, when questions are asked, they say, "Hush, that is a matter for the Imperial Defence Committee." I protest strongly against any such view being taken by the House of Commons, or by any Committee of the House of Commons.
Will the hon. Member bear in mind that that suggestion did not come from either my right hon. Friend or myself, and also that on Vote 12 all the policy can be discussed and criticised. These Votes, as he knows, are Votes for specific sums of money to carry out each Vote which is consequent upon policy, which can be discussed on Vote 12.
If I am not mistaken, both my hon. and gallant Friend and the First Lord loudly cheered the statement made that it should be left to the Committee of Imperial Defence, but if my hon. and gallant Friend is a convert to my view, I am glad to welcome him as a friend at court. It is quite true that Vote 12 is left open, and that it deals with policy, but this is a Vote in which we are spending money, and it does not really matter if on Vote 12 the policy is discussed or not, because, unless His Majesty's Government is beaten, the policy maintains, and the money that you spend prior to the discussion of the policy you have got. You spend the money first, and decide what you are going to do with it afterwards, instead of deciding what you are going to do with it first, and spending the money afterwards. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Un-worthy) took up, among other questions, an isolated reference or two to the new oil fuel depots. I have taken the trouble to take out while I have been listening to the Debate the amount of money which is asked for the seven fuel depots in the Estimates, and I make it something like £2,500,000. The probable expenditure up to the 31st March, 1920, as compared with the amount to be voted 1920–21, is extraordinarily small. For instance, there is the one at Malta, on which only £2,000 has been spent and for which you are now asking £84,000, and the one at Plymouth, upon which only £1,000 has been spent, and £132,000 is being asked for to-day. If you run through those you will find that something like £670,000 is being asked for this year. That is our criticism of the policy. If we give you permission without knowing what we are doing to spend £670,000 this year, then any House of Commons will give the necessary permission next year to spend the remaining money in order to save what we have spent this year, and I think, therefore, it is only reasonable and fair that my right hon. Friend should tell us something about those stations.
I know nothing at all about the Navy. At any rate, one speaks on the Navy with great respect after four hon. and gallant Members, who have been connected all their lives with the Navy, have spoken and when other distinguished Members of the Navy are listening to the Debate Therefore, I am not putting any criticism from a technical point of view, but trying to express the view that an ordinary citizen holds who has got to pay the taxes and wants to understand what is the meaning of this new expenditure. It may be that the Admiralty has decided, and that policy has determined, that in future naval ships shall be driven by oil fuel. If that is so, it is necessary that they should be provided with oil fuel wherever they go. That is common ground My point is this, that at a time when it is necessary to save money, at a time when there cannot be obviously any very great naval activities, would it not be possible in this year not to make a beginning with some of these oil fuel stations and to direct the operations of the Navy in accordance with what you have got? It does seem to me, when you want to save money, and when you want to make a beginning, it is up to the Admiralty to make that contribution to national economy at this moment.
The same criticism could be made with regard to the wireless telegraph stations at Bathurst, Demerara, and Jamaica. The total for the work at Bathurst is £16,800, for Demerara £3,150, and Jamaica £3,150. Nothing at all had been spent either at Demerara or Jamaica up to the close of the last financial year, and in these two cases they are asking for £2,000 for 1920–21. In the other case only £1,000 has been spent. I interpolated a question when my hon. Friend was speaking as to whether this was for the Fleet alone or was part of the Imperial wireless telegraphy scheme, for which, in other Votes, we have granted money for making stations. What I want to know is, is it part of a vast Imperial scheme, or simply an addition to the scheme of the Navy for ad hoc naval purposes? If for ad hoc naval purposes, there again is an obvious source on which to save money. Why begin a station either at Demerara or Jamaica? Surely it is possible for the Navy to get into another financial year without those two wireless stations? We did without them during the War, and there is no possibility of a war with any Power which has a navy to stand up to us inside the next financial year. If you are really looking for economy, then I present these two examples, unless there is some overpowering reason which can be given for proceeding with these things at the moment.
I do not feel so much inclined to go through the Estimates in detail, because one can put one's finger on almost any item and have something to say either for or against it. Therefore I have confined myself to these two points. On the question of general criticism, these Estimates are too high for peace time. They commit the House of Commons and the country to an expenditure of over £2,500,000 on oil fuel alone, and we are asked to permit that without any indication at all of policy. All that is said to that criticism is, "Oh, wait until you have Vote 12; then you can discuss all those big questions of policy." I say that is the wrong way to go about it, and that this Committee ought to agree to the reduction moved in order to draw attention to this. At Question time we are often asked to point out where the Government can save, and we are point- ing out this afternoon where the Government may save if they really want to do so. I hope, before this Vote is concluded, we shall have some tolerably substantial reasons given to us why those large items of buildings ought to proceed without, at any rate, the House of Commons being convinced that a big scheme has been thought out, that that scheme is absolutely essential to the life-blood of this country, and that it is impossible to delay one single item in it for one single moment.
I want to express my gratitude to my hon. Friend (Air James Craig) for so promptly and so fully responding to a question I addressed to him and to join with others in congratulating him on the admirable way in which he has dealt with questions of the Navy. I want to ask whether I correctly understand the position with regard to the old Gun Wharf at Portsmouth, which I believe is now partly held by the War Office and partly by the Admiralty; that is to say, part of it is Army Ordnance and the remainder Naval Ordnance. I understand it is proposed to take over the whole of the Gun Wharf. If I correctly understand it, no better scheme could be arranged. Am I also right in believing that there will be a certain sum paid over to the War Office as compensation? That looks like merely a paper transaction. Then, can the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether any work has been done there already; if not, when the work will be started, and will it be continued during the coming year? He will appreciate why I ask this question, interested as I am in Portsmouth—the very serious discharges which are taking place there and the great amount of unemployment existing in the town at the present time, amounting, I should think, to 4,000 or 5,000 men. It would be very helpful if we could know whether those discharges could be reduced, or that the men could be put on other work. If I can have an assurance, I shall be very grateful. With regard to the assurance given as to the cement question, that, unfortunately, has not been understood up to now. It did appear that in the minds of the syndicate there was some objection or opposition. At the north end of Portsmouth Harbour the mud and the chalk lie side by side for the manufacture of cement, and if the industry could be encouraged there, a number of men might be employed. I understand my hon. Friend has already said he would give a sympathetic consideration to it. I trust he will not only give sympathetic consideration, but also encouragement.
I may say at once, in answer to the questions put to me by my hon. Friend who has just sat down, that he is right in his views with regard to the first two questions, that is to say, the change in the Gun Wharf and the payment, which is, of course, a paper arrangement between the War Office and ourselves. With regard to the work, which has been going on, I think, during the year, so far as my information goes, certainly there is no desire to delay but to do all we can. It all depends, of course, on the amount of money at our disposal. Dealing with the general question, the Debate has been one of which the Admiralty can in no sense complain; on the contrary, we welcome the criticism and we heartily welcome the spirit in which the whole of the criticism has been addressed to us and the Committee to-day. But I confess I am rather astonished when competent Members of this House, who are well able to examine the facts for themselves and arrive at conclusions, get up one after the other, and attack us. My hon. Friend who spoke just now from the Front Bench opposite poured scorn upon us because he said this Vote before the War was £3,500,000, and now it is £5,000,000. But did he stop to calculate the altered conditions under which we are working now?
Oh, yes.
In that case, if he has made the proper calculation of the increased cost, this particular Vote would be now 10,000,000, whereas it is only £5,500,000. I can assure the Committee there is no Vote in the whole of our long list of Admiralty Votes which has been more carefully examined by all of us, including myself. I agree that the Vote for Work is one which must be most carefully examined before the Estimate is made, and we must be able to justify it. But I think we are entitled to ask that, while we receive with becoming humility the inevitable share of criticism and condemnation for our misdoings, those who criticise us should give us some credit for our economies. I know the gratitude of the House of Commons is much more a sense of favours to come than gratitude for those received; that they will appreciate us if we effect more economy, but are not prepared to give us any credit for any economies we have effected, and which have been very great indeed. Take this particular Vote. It is cut down enormously from what the original Estimates were that were presented to us at the Board of Admiralty, and I do not hesitate to say, speaking naturally with more knowledge of this than Members of the House can have, that if we are erring, we are erring on the side of too rigorous cutting-down. The Committee, I think, forgets that as a result of the prolonged war repairs and maintenance of all kinds got lamentably into arrear. It is constantly said to the Government, "You do not work on business principles; you are not business men," and they go to our establishments and say they are not as they ought to be. I do not for a moment deny that many of our workshops are not up-to-date, as many of those in private hands are. We are obliged to go slow, and, in a year like this, when economy is essential, and, really, in one sense is the first consideration, we have had to cut down estimates upon works that we should be very glad to see receive larger consideration.
The oil question has been mentioned. We have been criticised because we are building oil-storages in various parts. My hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Hogge) does not quite appreciate, I think, what my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Derby (Admiral Hall), who is not now here, said on the point referred to. Perhaps here I may be allowed to interpolate that we are glad to see the hon. and gallant Member for West Derby back, and restored to health after his very severe illness; at one time it almost threatened his life. I think the hon. Gentleman opposite misunderstood the hon. and gallant Member. The hon. and gallant Member for West Derby did not mean, as I understood him, that a general statement of policy cannot or ought not to be made in the House of Commons. What he really meant—what he said—was, that there are parts of Government policy in naval and military affairs which cannot be discussed on the Floor of the House of Commons. Surely most people will not deny the truth of that very simple proposition! My hon. and gallant Friend behind me (Commander Bellairs), who speaks with very great authority upon this subject, which he has examined for years and years, pointed out that these are not questions to be discussed here, but questions to be discussed and decided by the Committee of Imperial Defence. Obviously, to take any time, or all times, to take pre-War times, various matters required a great deal of investigation and consideration as well as now; is it, therefore, altogether reasonable to ask any Government to come down to the House of Commons and declare a brand new policy for the naval matters of the future when, as everybody knows, one of the results of this War has been to turn the world upside down? What person is there, great admiral or great soldier, who ought properly to be asked to say what is to be the exact policy of the future; is it to be East or West., or Atlantic or Pacific?
These are questions which, as the hon. and gallant Member for Maidstone said, have got to be examined by the Committee of Imperial Defence. They are questions which are now before that Committee—a whole series of them—to be examined by that Committee, and I can assure this Committee that the Committee of Imperial Defence will lose no avoidable time in examining all the various problems with which we are confronted. The great body of Members here will, I am quite sure, be satisfied so long as they know that these problems are under investigation, that they are not escaping attention, and that such declaration of policy as can properly be made will be made when we are in a position to see our way clear to do it.
I quite agree with a great deal of what the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord says. My point was this; why take authority to spend money if the world is turned upside down, and we do not know where we are, and someone is duscussing matters who are going to give us their policy later?
I am coming to that; but for the moment I continue the question of oil storage. What is the criticism? That we are spending too much money, that we are providing oil-storage at Jamaica and elsewhere. My hon. and gallant Friend near me said that this is not purely a war question. We must have oil storage at Jamaica in any case. Malta has been mentioned. That is the headquarters of the Mediterranean Fleet, which at the present time is playing a most important part in connection with the future restoration and reconstruction of the Eastern part of Europe. What is our position in regard to oil? I venture to say that in what the Admiralty are doing they are not spending one farthing more than they ought to do. My doubt was whether, as First Lord of the Admiralty, I should agree to the expenditure on its reduced scale. Every new ship turned out to-day is an oil-driven ship. Oil is going to be the fuel of the future. The oil supplies of the world are being drawn upon more and more every year. Our command of those supplies is very small indeed. New supplies are being opened up, happily for us. We command at present a limited quantity of the general supply of the world. If we are dependent upon oil for our ships, surely it is our bounden duty to see that the storage is such that it is unlikely, if not impossible, that there should be any deficiency in supplies for our ships wherever they may be throughout the world. Every new ship built is an oil-consuming ship, and the least we can do, as trustees for the nation, aye! and for the Empire in this matter, is to see that we spend as much money as we can justify in establishing oil storage so that our ships can get the oil they need.
We have been criticised for providing oil storage at Jamaica. What is the alternative? You must have oil storage there on land or in an oil hulk at sea, and the latter is the most extravagant and expensive way of having your storage and the most difficult way to transfer it to the vessel requiring it for use. In reality, therefore, this experiment is a form of economy. Quite, however, apart from that aspect of the case, I am prepared, on behalf of the Admiralty and the Government, to take my stand definitely in regard to this oil question, having in view the importance of the question and the fact that in a few years' time, if there was a deficiency for our ships, and the necessity arose, the people would be justified in saying that we who are now responsible for those who come after us had not done our duty at a time when we could plainly see what the necessities of the future would be? Let me say one word about Osea Island. I went all over it not long ago myself. The journey was interesting in a way, but hon. Members who propose to make the trip should be of rather tough material. My experience was an amazing one. The money we are spending there is, after all, a very small sum, and it is necessary to make the place complete. Some of the accommodation is still deficient. The place is an isolated one, and as many hon. Members know, it is only connected with the mainland by a causeway for many hours of the day. Life there is not a cheerful one, and the money we are spending is to make the thing complete. The same observations apply to the criticisms addressed to us in respect to the purchase of land. During the War, not only the Admiralty, but other big Government Departments had to erect buildings for war purposes. This applies partly to Rosyth and to Port Edgar, where quite a considerable number of buildings were erected. It is quite true that Port Edgar, as my right hon. Friend opposite said, is subject to silting. It is pronounced, however, by the Naval Authorities to be fully satisfactory for the work that is to be done there. Anybody who knows the place will admit that it is an admirable place, and thoroughly complete in itself, and while we have not lost sight of the fact that there is no German Fleet at present, still, there are other very good reasons for maintaining Port Edgar as a destroyer base for the Home Fleets, and also for the retention of Rosyth.
Rosyth is, after all, the most modern dock we have got and the only place where the "Hood" can be accommodated. It is quite true that for the purposes of a prospective war—should such ever come again—the matter is not per, haps so clear, yet at the same time our fleet has there a certain base for exercise purposes and for a great deal of its training. Anyone in the House who has before them the history of Rosyth, and has had explained what has been done to change the character of the place, and to make a really magnificent and up-to-date dockyard, would say that the Admiralty are justified in retaining it, and that it would be an act of wild extravagance and folly to abandon it now. If you cannot abandon Rosyth, it is proposed, I think, that you should abandon another dockyard. My hon. and gallant Friend opposite who moved the reduction spoke about Chatham. There is something to be said for all these suggestions of economy; but I can assure him and the Committee that we have been into these questions carefully and exhaustively. Chatham is doing Admiralty work at the present time. I am not sure whether in the future Chatham will not be found to play a very important part in connection with naval work. To get rid of it now would be an act of folly. We could not do it. Apart from the fact that there is an extra dockyard, which is a slight advantage, there is no justification for the suggestion that we should abolish it, because at the present timer, though there is unemployment, it is pretty fully occupied. Therefore the criticisms do not apply with sufficient force to justify us closing down the dockyard.
6.0. P. M.
I can assure the Committee that we have gone exhaustively into all these questions: as to whether the number of dockyards is more than it ought to be, and whether those dockyards should be reduced either in part or the whole. These questions have been exhaustively gone into—of economising in works, in dockyards, and in naval stations, and I do not think you can reduce your expenditure under this Vote 10 with safety to the future of the Navy, those who belong to it, and those whom it protects. We have been criticised in regard to Osborne College, but I think everybody will agree that the arrangements made there are working extremely well and giving admirable results. We are now dealing with the question of moving the college. I told the Committee, with reference to Osborne, that the money we are spending there is a matter of urgency. It will be remembered that there have been a series of epidemics at Osborne, and it was necessary that something should be done to find out the cause. After a great deal of investigation and careful examination there was very strong evidence that it was due to the state of some of the dormitories. We spent £6,000 upon improving them, and since then the health of the cadets has been very much more satisfactory. I am confident that these premises would be put to some good purpose. The buildings there, which are satisfactory now, were unsatisfactory before, and I do not think anybody will deny that it was our duty, after we found out these unsatisfactory conditions, to remove them by a small expenditure. It was our duty to do this work; otherwise we might have had another epidemic. I think everybody will admit that to spend a few thousand pounds to avoid results of that kind is something which ought not to be criticised.
Questions have been raised about the torpedo experimental stations. At Loch Long the number of torpedoes has been cut down to something very small, and the station at Stokes Bay was established for experimental purposes in connection with torpedoes and other experimental work, and it was a question whether it would be necessary to have both these stations. After very careful examination, and after my advisers and myself had examined things on the spot, we concluded that they were justified, and we are taking care that the money is not wasted in reference to torpedo or other experimental work at those stations. I have been asked questions about wireless telegraphy, and I may say that this is being used for Admiralty and naval purposes, and the works are already begun.
I think my answer covers all the questions which have been asked. In conclusion, I wish to say that I am very grateful to the Committee for the way in which they have approached these Naval Estimates, and more particularly the Works Vote. It is quite true that there is a difficulty in deciding what is to be the future naval policy of this or any other country after the War, and we have had to bear very great sacrifices. I am sure, however, that the Committee, without a single exception, will feel that it is the duty of this country to maintain a Navy sufficient in numbers to give us absolute security, both in this country and throughout our widespread Empire, which are absolutely dependent upon the supremacy of the Navy. When we are told that we are spending too much now, and that we might postpone expenditure here or there, I say that is not a sound policy, and it does not mean true economy. If you postpone necessary work, it only means that you add to the burden in subsequent years. In the present financial pressure I agree that we must not spend a penny which we can avoid, and I assure the Committee that that. is ever present in our minds, and that these Estimates have been prepared with exhaustive care and consideration. I have no hesitation in submitting this Vote to the Committee, and I can assure hon. Members that the Admiralty will take to heart the criticisms which have been addressed to the Committee to-day. I can promise that if we can secure further economy, and at the same time maintain efficiency, the Committee may rest assured that we shall do it.
With regard to what the Parliamentary Secretary said in reference to the Coastguard, I thought that he was reading from some prehistoric document. I hope that care will be taken in the future to see that the life-saving apparatus at all the coastguard stations will be kept in perfect and efficient order. Unfortunately, they are not always in that condition. I have been present when the rocket apparatus was worked, and it has been done very well indeed, and all round the coastguard men have done splendid work. I know of one case, however, where a coastguard life-saving apparatus was not within reach when the tragedy occurred, and the rocket apparatus was certainly not got into working order within a reasonable time, due to the fact that it was not attended to as it ought to have been. I think in the future care should be taken to see that all the life-saving apparatus along the coast, like the rocket apparatus, should be kept in good order, and the men trained for the work, so as to be ready for use at any time.
I wish to take up the point which has been raised by the hon. Member for West Derby (Mr. White), and to state that, in my opinion, if we are not to criticise the naval policy of the Government, Heaven help the country. In the past criticisms of our naval policy, made by Lord Charles Beresford and others, have rendered a real service to the country, and if we are not to criticise these matters because we have got a coupon Parliament, then Heaven help the Navy. With regard to the oil fuel depots, I do not think the First Lord of the Admiraltby quite followed my argument. I agree that we must have these depots, but my criticism was that the money was being spent upon depots in the wrong place, and I wish to put this on record. At the present time we are spending a considerable amount of money upon a floating depot at Jamaica, and I suggest the money would be better spent upon erecting a depot on shore, either on the west coast of Ireland or in Scotland, because these depots ought to be in safe places. I put that point forward with great seriousness, and I hope the matter will receive more careful consideration.
With regard to the future stores centre in the Pacific, we seem to be taking too little care in that matter. Our present coaling stations in the next war will be almost useless, and almost the whole mobility of the Navy will depend upon the use of oil. I look upon the expenditure of this money at Jamaica as so much money wasted. I would like to know whether these plans for the oil fuel depots, the wireless stations and the like have been submitted to the Plans Division of the Admiralty, or have they been arranged by the Department of the Director of Dockyards, or possibly the over-worked First Lord and the First Sea Lord. The planning division was formed to look into questions affecting future policy, and they should have the last word as to where wireless stations are to be placed
Amendment negatived.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Miscellaneous Effective Services
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £3,290,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of various Miscellaneous Effective Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
This Vote is for Miscellaneous Effective Services. I at once agree that the comparison one is accustomed to make on these Votes between the year 1913–14, when we had a corresponding number of men, is not really applicable to this particular Vote in any full sense, because naturally the miscellaneous services sprang up during war time to many millions of money. They were reduced last year to about 8½ millions and we are asked for no less a sum than 3¼ millions this year. The real comparison which I propose to institute on this Vote in the general sense is therefore between this year and last year. There is a very substantial reduction which, of course, I welcome, but there are some small points as to which I would like some information. I am afraid they will prove rather detailed. May I say that the work I am endeavouring to do on this particular Vote affords a really good working model of how very necessary it is to have a Committee set up on the Estimates, such as has been advocated so very often? I am going to try on this Vote to do work which should be done by such a Committee long before the Vote comes here. Unfortunately we have not such a Committee as yet. First, will hon. Members look at Item A, which refers to "passage money and conveyance of officers, seamen and marines "Although the numbers of the Navy have been reduced by one-half the Department is asking for precisely the same amount for these services as they did last year. There should be some explanation of that. There is presumably only half the necessity for removals, and to ask for the same amount in the two years requires explanation. Read this with Item I, "Assistance rendered to His Majesty's Ships when in Distress." Here we have a fall from £33,000 to £5,000, showing apparently that fewer vessels are actually in use, and presumably a much lesser number of men is required to be moved from one place to another. Yet we have no reduction in the charges for conveyance. Then take the reduction under Item G from £400,000 to £300,000, "Compensation for Damage done by His Majesty's Ships in the course of the discharge of their duties when in movement." Next we come to the lodging allowances, etc., to officers and men in His Majesty's ships. These are brought down from £200,000 to £130,000. On the other hand, the charges for piloting and towing His Majesty's ships show an increase from £60,000 to £100,000. There must be reasons for that, of course.
But I would ask hon. Members to look especially at Item B. "Commanders-in-Chief, Expenses attendant on." Here the charge, £7,000, is exactly the same as for the preceding year. I do not know how many Commanders-in-chief there are. I suppose there is one for every fleet and equally one for every naval port. Suppose there are 12 or 15 in all. If we have had a great reduction, as we have had, in the number of men in the Navy, why is it thought necessary to maintain all these commanders-in-chief with their staffs without any sort of reduction at all? The same thing occurred in the Army Estimates. While there was an immense reduction in the number of men it was still thought necessary to retain officers of high rank with their costly staffs. Perhaps one may have an explanation why it is necessary to retain these high officers while there is such a reduction in the number of men. We find very little information really in these Votes. Take Item Z. The Committee will find that although there has been so great a reduction in the number of men in the Navy, the miscellaneous payments and allowances have gone up from £250,000 to £452,000. Going into detail of this Item Z, I find there is provision for expenses in connection with the internment of naval officers and men in Holland, Norway, Switzerland and Denmark. It seems to me rather extraordinary that these items are still outstanding. Is there some dispute about them? Again I would suggest how much more usefully these things could be dealt with by a Committee on the Estimates rather than by attempting to deal with them in an almost futile way by asking for information here. One could not have a better illustration of the urgent need for an Estimates Committee than is provided by this Vote, and I am certain that if hon. Members will only join with me in the persistent advocacy of this really necessary reform we may eventually secure it and save much time in the House. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will be able to give me answers to some, at any rate, of the questions I have put.
I wish to ask, on behalf of South Coast fishermen, sympathetic consideration of the situation with which they are faced. They have a real genuine grievance, and I want the Parliamentary Secretary to give his mind to this case. I am speaking for the fishermen on the South Coast of Devon. It is not necessary for me to remind my hon. Friend of the splendid work these men did throughout the War. They suffered very severe losses with their trawlers by enemy action, and all over the south coast, in the best parts of the fishing grounds, their trawlers were sunk. The consequence is that much gear is now lost when these men are plying their industry. Everyone knows what an important source of food supply is obtained from the sea by these men who toil in all weathers. What I am going to ask for is that either the wrecks should be destroyed, so that the men who fish need not suffer loss of gear, or that at any rate the worst wrecks should be marked by buoys so that the fishermen may be able to carry on their trawling without running undue risk, more especially in the winter when the hours of daylight are very limited. The men often have to fish in the dark, and unless there are buoys to mark these wrecks they simply cannot carry on their business. Before the War, when the Admiralty were trying experiments with certain missiles, they selected the best part of these fishing grounds to sink the hull of the "Empress of India." I believe they did not mean actually to sink the hull, but they managed to do it in the best part of these grounds. I fought this question for a long time, and after hammering away at it very strongly I got a gas buoy fitted over the wreck. At the commencement of the War the gas buoy, of course, was removed, but it has not yet been replaced and this particular wreck is a serious menace to the fishermen to-day.
My right hon. Friend knows perfectly well the difficulty of replacing gear that is lost. He must be aware of the big increase in cost and therefore he must realise the difficulty that these men experience in carrying on their business. After the services they have given in mine sweeping and patrolling, and in every possible way in which they could serve their country, I think they do now deserve consideration in regard to this particular matter. I therefore make a very earnest appeal to my hon. and gallant Friend not to pass this question over lightly, but to see if something cannot be done to make things easier for these gallant men. They have sufficient difficulties to meet already. Everybody knows, from the statements published in the Press, that it is scarcely worth while for fishermen to go out and catch fish owing to the poor prices they receive when they bring it ashore. There are many other difficulties which surround this question, but surely it is the duty of, the Government and of the representatives of the Admiralty to give the fishermen the best possible chance of carrying on their trade and of producing fish supplies for the food of the people of this country. I hope my hon. and gallant Friend, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty, will take this matter into consideration and do everything in his power to ensure either that the grounds are cleared of these wrecks, or, where that be not possible, the wrecks themselves are marked by buoys.
I should like to endorse the appeal made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Air D. Maclean) for the setting up of an Estimates Committee. He has drawn particular attention to Item Z. How on earth can anyone in a Committee like this discuss Item Z with any prospect of gaining any knowledge as to what it covers? We see that Item Z has increased from £250,000 last year to £452,000. As I have said before, I have no wish in any way to economise on the Navy or the Army. I am prepared to support strong and active forces both in the Army and in the Navy. It does not at all follow, however, that it may not be, in order to obtain that, our duty to criticise what are practically civil payments, and which may, if properly looked after, form a subject for economy, and so free money for keeping up the ships and the fighting foces. Can any Member of the Committee form any opinion as to whether or not this money has been properly spent—which is, after all, the object for which we are here to-day—when we are told that the item is:
"For Expenses in connection with the Internment of Naval Officers and Men in Holland, Norway, Switzerland and Denmark; Expenses in connection with His Majesty and the Royal Household; Remuneration of Naval Officers in receipt of Half Pay or Retired Pay, etc., employed on Special Services relating to the Navy at large; Occasional Hire of Steamers and other small Vessels, Boats, etc.; Expenses of Ceremonies attendant on the Launching of His Majesty's Ships; Freight of Specie; Fees to Registrars for Certificates of Death of Navy Pensioners; Instructions, etc.,"
What that covers I do not know, and I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend does not know—
"of Armourers and Armourers' Mates at the Ordnance Factories, and of Marine Artificers in the School of Military Engineering, Chatham; Removing Dirt and Ashes from His Majesty's Ships and Naval Barracks; Maintenance of Grounds at Whale Island, Key-ham Naval Barracks, etc.; and for other small or unforeseen Expenses in connection with the Naval Service"
What are "other small or unforeseen Expenses in connection with the Naval Service"? That might cover anything.
"or incidental to the Proceedings of Naval Officers approved by the Admiralty and which cannot be classed under the other Sub-Heads."
The amount is £452,000, as against £250,000 last year. Seven or eight years ago we should have thought £452,000 an enormous sum, but now that we are so accustomed to millions—when we ought really to look at all the small sums, and when we really are a poor country, as I presume people will recognise in a short time—it is all muddled up together in a way which would take three or four days to investigate, with proper people before you to tell you what is going on. That could be done by a Committee on Estimates, which the Government have refused to set up, which they can set up without legislation, and which they did set up, and I never heard its action criticised very adversely during the three years it was in existence. Here is a very strong instance of how necessary a Committee of that sort is. If the Government would give the House an opportunity of endeavouring to reduce all unnecessary expenditure, wherever it might be, instead of trying to get levies on capital and absurd things of that sort, they would be doing far more for the better government and prosperity of the country than they are doing now. I should not have risen had it not been that I wished strongly to endorse the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman (Air D. Maclean) for an Estimates Committee, and to express my humble opinion that he is perfectly right in taking this as an instance of what might be done by such a Committee, but which is quite impossible in this present Committee as it is now constituted.
I should like to say a single word in support of the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman (Air D. Maclean) with regard to the appointment of an Estimates Committee—not merely an Estimates Committee working without proper staff or backing, as has so often been the case with Estimates Committees in the past, but an Estimates Committee working with proper equipment and experts, just as the Public Accounts Committee works. This Vote is one of those typically elusive tasks which are so difficult for the House. The Financial Secretary will agree that there is no practice so vicious in estimating, and at the same time so attractive, as the practice of having what I might call a "milch cow" in the Estimates; that is to say, the practice of over-estimating one vote or sub-head, in view of its innocent description, which does not attract attention, in order to have something to draw upon to assist possible over-expenditure on other Votes or under other sub-heads. There is no practice so fatal to economy or to accuracy in estimating; but also, alas, there is no practice which has such attractions, sometimes, for those who prepare the Estimates.
It has none for me.
Of course, I quite agree that for anyone in the responsible position of my hon. and gallant Friend the practice has no attractions at all. It is often almost impossible to detect, without the most careful and minute examination, instances of such over-estimating, and therefore it appears to me worth while to lay special stress on any case which seems to present the suspicion that one has come upon the horns of the mulch cow projecting from the thicket. Sub-head A, to which the right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Maclean) called attention, seems, as it were, to show the symptoms of the milch cow. It is one of the largest sub-heads, and, as the right hon. Gentleman has mentioned, there is every statistical reason pointing to the probability of its reduction, yet there is no explanation why it shows no reduction. It is estimated at the same amount as last year, and the details give no further information; the sub-divisions have each been re-estimated at the same amount as before. That suggests the suspicion that this sub-head has been over-estimated, and I should like to ask the specific question whether it has been estimated with a single view to the necessary requirements for the purposes described.
I should like to ask a question of my hon. and gallant Friend with regard to Item U (Allowances to Ministers of Religion). My hon. Friend, the Member for Devon-port (Air C. Kinloch-Cooke) is amused, but I am going to draw the attention of the Admiralty toe some rather hard cases where Ministers of religion—Naval chaplains and so forth—at ports abroad and at home, are suffering hardship by reason of what I consider to have been a great meanness during the War. It is no laughing matter for them, if it is for my hon. Friend. This Vote now makes nearly £9,000,000 which we have voted this afternoon, and I should like to draw attention to the very small number of hon. Members present, some of whom do not even seem to take the matter seriously. Before the War the practice was that, when a squadron or ship went into a port, a small grant was made to the Ministers of religion in that port, based on the number of people in the ship or the squadron. During the War a different practice was adopted. Everyone thought that the War was going to be one of a few months' duration, and the original practice was stopped. I am particularly referring to Nonconformist ministers in the various ports of this Kingdom and in such places as Gibraltar and Malta abroad. The practice has been only to pay them according to the number of men sent to their churches on Sundays. During the War the men so sent were few. The ships were only in harbour for a short time, and were very busy getting ready for sea again, and the result was that these poor men have suffered very badly. I should like to ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman if that practice is still being carried on, or whether we have gone back to the much fairer pre-War practice of giving a small capitation grant based on the number of the crews entering the port. In one or two cases of which I have personal knowledge these ministers abroad, whose services to the men of their denominations have been most appreciated in the past, have suffered heavily, and I think it should be seen to.
A much larger, and, I think, on the whole, much more important item from the national point of view, is Item A, which has already been referred to—Passage Money and Conveyance of Officers, Seamen, Marines, etc., £750,000. This amount is more, I think, than the whole of this Vote was in the three years before the War, and I think it requires explanation. I am going to volunteer an explanation why it is so high, and I would like my hon. and gallant Friend to tell the Committee whether I am correct or not. I suggest that a lot of this expenditure is due to the sending of unnecessary missions about Europe—in particular, Naval missions to Poland, which we were told were going to advise the Poles on the navigation of the River Vistula; a Naval mission for the Crimea, which is still there, attached, apparently, as I am told in answer to questions, to General Wrangel; and the latest episode of sending a mission of approximately 90 officers and men to Baku, where they are now imprisoned, and, according to Press reports, are being employed as common labourers. Why did we send this strong Naval mission a few months ago to Baku? Was it in order to guard Enzeli, and then to man General Denikin's fleet? If so, it has been money wasted, and more than wasted; it has been money employed in what I consider to be a criminal matter. Of course, these officers and men had no choice in the matter, but I am attacking the Government's policy of spending money in this way, and I should like to know if part of this expenditure is due to sending that mission for the purpose of going to Enzeli and making further trouble by manning the remnants of General Denikin's fleet and carrying on more fighting in the Caspian, on the principle that war is a very good thing, and that, therefore, you should make it eternal and everlasting? Another item which requires explanation is E—Lodging Allowances, etc.—which this year amounts to £130,000. I have given previous notice of this, and I should like to know how much of that sum is due to allowances to officers employed on shore on these very doubtful duties with counter-revolutionary forces in Eastern Europe. I regret very much that the First Lord has had to leave the House while this Vote is on. I should have particularly liked to have some further explanation from him of the expenditure on this private war in the Black Sea.
The last item I wish to draw attention to is a decrease in the Vote in Item X, hire of auxiliary vessels, which is £1,040,000. That I consider a preposterous sum to ask for in this year of Grace 1920. I want to know how much of this is money expended already on the private war that the Admiralty have been waging in the Black Sea, and to a lesser extent in the Baltic, and whether this money is now going to be stopped, whether this tap has been turned off or whether the expenditure of the taxpayer's money is still running out of it. I make no excuse for drawing attention to this and asking for some information. I suppose even the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) has been rather startled by the crushing weight of taxation which is being imposed. It is hampering industry and trade and disheartening people right and left, and we ought to look very carefully at what the money is being spent on, and I should particularly wish to know how much of this hire of auxiliary vessels is due to what I might call legitimate naval expenditure, that is, expenditure on the Fleet for the defence of the country, or whether it is expended on this worthless and criminal campaign in the Black Sea? The remnant of General Denikin's army was transferred—
That is a very long way beyond this Naval Vote. It is obvious that an answer cannot be given on that question of general policy. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is quite entitled to ask whether any money is being spent in the Black Sea or anywhere else, but not to discuss general questions of policy.
I should like to ask how much of Item X is for hire of transport for that purpose. I do not wish to go into policy or the proceedings of these people we were helping and allied with, but we ought to know how much we have let in for in -providing transport for these troops. I do not think anyone would object to money for taking refugees away. I certainly would not. I only hope they have all been rescued and sent away where they can do no further harm. But where it is a question of transporting troops, as was done, we ought to know how much the country has to pay. The whole naval policy pursued in those waters must have been very expensive. It has done no good to the country. On the other hand, by backing the wrong horse it has done a tremendous amount of harm in the East, where prestige is of such tremendous importance, and the exact bill should be made known. I am afraid there has been too much of this criminal expenditure wrapped up in Votes of this sort, where it is put down vaguely as "hire of auxiliary vessels" in one case or "special miscellaneous payments and allowances" in another, or simply "passage money and conveyance of officers, etc."
I can satisfy the hon. and gallant Gentleman at once that this has really nothing whatever to do with the Admiralty because it comes under the Ministry of Transport. I might also say to my hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Burn) that his question with regard to the lighting of wrecks and so forth comes under the Board of Trade.
I should like to be clear on this point. The hon. and gallant Gentleman is going to tell us apparently that the Minister of Transport will answer on this, but I understand these officers proceeded on service authorised by the Admiralty, and there is a great deal of difficulty in getting permission for a passage for an officer, as I know from my own experience. Does he tell us that he has no responsibility for this expenditure at all? If so, I cannot accept that.
I can only say that it does not come under our Vote, and therefore I presume it is not possible to discuss the question.
It is down here.
Not the question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who was raising it. It is the question of transporting refugees and so on which comes under the Vote of the Ministry of Shipping. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Maclean) emphasised the necessity for having a Committee to examine all these Estimates. Of course, I personally have nothing to do with the question of policy on that subject. What annoyed me to a certain extent was the apologetic tone adopted by my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) for having intervened in the Debate, because unless he was seriously ill or was neglecting his duty he would not allow a Vote of any sort to pass with out making some comment. We are only too delighted to see him take such a minute interest in the various points. I think the right hon. Gentleman (Sir D. Maclean) failed to recognise, in looking at Item A, that the number of Commanders-in-Chief was put on a peace footing last year. The economy which he has been quite rightly urging upon my right hon. Friend and myself was carried out rather earlier than he had anticipated when he looked at the Vote. In other words, we have been carrying on on a peace footing from last year, and that is the reason why there is practically no change.
That is item B. This sum asked for here relates to the numbers of 136,000. What the hon. and gallant Gentleman said was that it was put on a peace footing last year, and, therefore, we are only asked for the same amount this year as last year. But the numbers last year were 275,000. They are reduced by one-half this year.
I was referring to the number of Commanders-in-Chief, below which it is not expected to fall.
I thought the number of Commanders-in-Chief has some relation to the numbers of men they command.
We were able to reduce the numbers of men very much more quickly. It will take longer to demobilise the Commanders-in-Chief. If the right hon. Gentleman looks back at the previous Estimates, he will find that that is correct. They are on absolutely peace status. The right hon. Gentleman's next point was with regard to passage money. Although there is no variation—£750,000 as against £750,000 last year—the preparation of the Supplementary Estimate for 1919–20 revealed a deficit of 21,270,000 on the provision in last year's Estimates. The difficulty of arriving at an accurate estimate for this service was due, primarily, to the fact that from the beginning of the War no cash payments had been made to the railway companies in respect of railway travelling, and exact data as to the amount of expenditure on this account were not, therefore, available. Sufficient allowance, moreover, was not made for the extent of travelling that would be involved in the dispersal of the large number of surplus personnel on demobilisation or for the effect of the concessions in regard to free travelling or travelling at reduced rates granted to officers and men on leave. The position has now been made clear by the statements of actual expenditures which has been rendered by the railway clearing house, and the present Estimate is made up after a review of the whole situation in conjunction with the railway clearing house and the Ministry of Transport, and we hope, in spite of the natural difficulty, with such large numbers of men being demobilised and having at various times free travelling warrants in some cases and special allowances in others, that we have arrived at an accurate Estimate. We believe that this is an accurate Estimate for the future.
The next point is with regard to piloting and towing His Majesty's ships. The Estimate is based on last year's expenditure under this sub-head, which was considerably in excess of the original provision, less a percentage reduction for decrease in the movements of His Majesty's ships. It will be readily understood that piloting at home at local rates, with certain modifications, means a very large difference from last year. All sorts of assistance has been given in connection with steam-tugs, etc., to bring His Majesty's ships to their moorings at places abroad. His Majesty's ships are allowed the use of tugs in special cases only, for example, when engines are disabled or when the use of their own propelling power in port would inconvenience other vessels. The consequence is that a difference comes in this year, and the increase is considerable, I think £14,000 over last year, in connection with pilotage and towing owing to different rates and different regulations. In regard to lodging allowances, the decrease of £70,000 is due to the general reduction of personnel. The expenditure under this head in 1919–20 was considerably in excess of the Estimate, so that the real reduction is actually greater than £70,000. In regard to compensation for damage done to His Majesty's ships, for which there is a decrease of £100,000, provision is included for certain outstanding war claims, and the decrease represents a natural falling off thereof. It is only natural, with so many outstanding claims, that it is impossible to set them all up inside the period which one would desire. There is always something outstanding. The amount for assistance rendered to His Majesty's ships shows a decrease of £28,000. This variation is accounted for Cy entirely represent a return to peace-time conditions, as provision is still required for outstanding war claims.
7.0 P.M.
I want now to come to the last question in connection with Item Z, because the explanation I shall be able to give will satisfy hon. Members that matters are in a better financial condition than that anticipated. The figure of £452,000 can be sub-divided into two headings: one, Normal Miscellaneous Payments and Allowances, amounting to £152,000; and the second, which I think was not criticised, £300,000 in connection with interned naval officers and men in Holland, Norway, Switzerland, and Denmark. The amount of £300,000 is to provide for the refund to the neutral countries mentioned of the expenditure incurred by them in connection with the internment of Naval officers and men during the War. The claims in respect of these expenses which are transmitted from time to time to the Admiralty by the Foreign Office include the pay of officers and men for messing, accommodation, clothing, medical services, carriage, lighting, etc. Therefore the bulk of the amount is accounted for by that large item which is to settle up, through the Foreign Office, with those countries which acted as an asylum to our men, and where they were treated in such a way as to necessitate this reimbursement. The further £152,000 can be accepted by the Commitee as the normal expenditure in a normal year. The hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) raised the question of clergymen. They are paid at capitation rate. He also referred to the question of hire of auxiliary vessels. Hon. Members will see under sub-head (X) that the whole amount represents a sum of £1,040,000. This head covers not only the actual payment for hire of vessels employed on Admiralty service, but also compensation for vessels lost and for the repairs of hired vessels damaged by War risk. Of this total amount less than £200,000 is for hire and the rest for deferred liabilities. The actual payment for hire must be made so long as the vessels are in course of repair and reconditioning. Every effort possible is being made to get the vessels reconditioned without delay, but this is a mater which necessarily takes time. At the Armistice we had 3,870 hired vessels on Naval service, and at the present time we have less than 200, and of these the bulk are in process of reconditioning prior to release. Therefore there has been a rapid and effective reduction in the number of hired vessels. The vessels still on service are required for the conveyance of coal, stores, etc., to His Majesty's ships, and consist of a number of trawlers and drifters. During the War our expenditure under this head was £14,000,000 a year. We have now reduced it to £1,040,000, and it is hoped that it will be very much reduced in the near future.
Will the hon. and gallant Member tell us what is the position at Batoum?
I am afraid I cannot give the information offhand. I do not think it is affected by this Vote.
The hon. and gallant Member has done his best, as the Committee will fully acknowledge. We all thoroughly understand that the recent date at which he took up his duties necessarily makes the performance of his task much more difficult than it would have been if he had had more experience. Under very difficult circumstances he is doing extremely well, but, after all, the explanation which he has given shows clearly that in this Vote the Admiralty have been making shots.
All Estimates are shots.
No, not in a general sense. If the Estimates are framed as they ought to be, they are not like an arrow shot into the air. The Estimates ought to be framed after a careful, accurate survey. They ought to be, they can be, and they have been in the past, altered to a degree of accuracy which has made the Estimate work of the British Civil Service, and of the fighting services, a very wonderful thing. It is very extraordinary how it is done. But the Committee must bear in mind that in the Admiralty, and in the War Office, they have a power which no other Department of the State possesses, and that is, that what they save on one Vote they can use to meet a deficit on another Vote. Where a saving is effected on the Civil Service Vote, it has to go back to the Exchequer, but that is not so with the Admiralty and the War Office, and at a later stage a certain Resolution will come before us, of a very mysterious kind, showing how the Admiralty have utilised the saving on one Vote to make up a deficiency on another. Therefore it is especially necessary that the Committee should watch the Admiralty and the War Office, which possess this power, and should see that their Estimate are framed with the utmost possible exactitude. From what the hon. and gallant Member has told us to-day, that has not been done in regard to this Vote, or in regard to other Votes, and I hope the Admiralty will recognise that some of us are thoroughly dissatisfied with the way these Estimates have been framed this year.
I have not the slightest doubt that this Department has not realised the fact that the time has come to exercise severe economy in what are relatively, when you are dealing with tens and hundreds of millions, small matters. They are not watching the half-millions and the quarter-millions. They have come out of the War, but they go on with the War idea. It is quite natural, but it is our duty to stop it. It is human nature when they have not been checked for five years that they should find it difficult to readjust themselves to peace conditions. It is our duty to help this Department and other State Departments to get back to the normal. We have an example in the explanation given with respect to the piloting and towage of His Majesty's ships. I have been one of the chief admirers of the men at the Admiralty and of their undoubted business capacity, in the past, before the War. They have the same capacity and experience to-day. I know how the Admiralty could buy before the War. They were the equals in buying coal and many other articles which they desired of some of the best business firms in the country. Everyone who had to deal with them knows that that was so. They must get back to that, and the sooner they get back to it the better. The Estimates which have been given this year do not reflect what the Admiralty can do. They have the men there, they have the experts, and they have the precedent of the past. I hope that the somewhat severe criticism of these Estimates will cause the Admiralty to realise that we are determined to have these Estimates presented in a business-like way. I am a very strong believer in the Navy and I would spare no necessary money to see that the Navy is kept in a powerful condition consistent with the country's needs. I am not going to divide the Committee in order to mark my dissatisfaction, but I do say that while I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for the efforts he has made to meet us, I am wholly dissatisfied with the way the Estimates have been presented to the Committee this year.
I thank may hon. and gallant Friend for the explanation he gave me in regard to Item Z. I understand that £300,000 is for the payment of certain expenses incurred in respect of our men who were interned in foreign countries, and that the balance of £152,000 is made up of small items. If I were inclined to criticise I would say, why not have put two lines in the Estimate to say that the expenses in respect of the internment of our men account for £300,000? Even with that explanation there is room in an item of that sort for more careful examination, which cannot be done here, but which might be done if an Estimates Committee were set up. My hon. and gallant Friend said that it was beyond his power to set up an Estimates Committee. That is quite true. What we are suffering from is that there is no responsible Minister present who can deal with that matter. I am rather surprised that the right hon. Member (Sir D. Maclean) who is leading the Opposition did not notice that. Why have we not some Minister present who has the authority to answer a question of that sort? When I first came into the House we always had the' Prime Minister present. We do not see him now and we do not see the Leader of the House except at Question time. I wonder the Opposition do not take up this matter. I know my hon. and gallant Friend will acquit me of any discourtesy towards himself, but we ought to have a Member of the Cabinet present who can give some attention to serious matters which are raised in Debate. We hall never get economy until we have Members of the Cabinet here who can see and understand the feeling of the Douse. So long as they sit outside in their rooms, or wherever they may be, we shall never get it. They are not here, which is their place, and I hope the Opposition will insist upon their presence more often.
In reply to my right hon. Friend opposite, I discovered after the discussion the other day on the Estimates that perhaps all the information which might be given to the House was not given on the Estimates as framed. Immediately after the Debate the First Lord and I put our heads together and consulted the heads of the Departments, and we have decided to revert to the old practice of interleaving in the Votes any information that is available. I asked the question whether it would not be possible to extend the interleaving so as to allow the House to have the full value of the most minute description that could be given, and we hope that by next year we shall be able to introduce that system into the Naval Estimates, so that all information which we have, provided that it is not of a secret nature, may be revealed, and that he various headings may be cut up even smaller than they are at present. In reference to the remarks of my right hon. Friend behind (Sir F. Banbury), it is the desire of the Admiralty to economise, and all their attention is given to this, and the only question which arises is—where does safety begin and end? As far as that is concerned we cannot allow any economy to affect us, but I can assure him that it is not a question merely of large sums like £500,000, but that sums of £10 and even £1 are constantly under my own personal supervision. Hours every day are spent by myself in direct personal investigation of even the smallest items that come up from the Estimates. My right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) imported no great heat into the suggestion that the Opposition should take a tip from him. May I say in all fairness that the Prime Minister is occupied very busily—
Seeing Bolsheviks.
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is also very busily engaged. The First Lord, with great courtesy to me and at my request, came down to assist me in these Votes which are of such great importance, but I actually said to him myself that he was so overworked that he should now get back to his own work and not allow it to get into arrear by remaining any longer. Not only Cabinet Ministers, but all Members of the Government are endeavouring to work as hard as they can in connection with these matters. No time is lost. I would consider it a gross waste of time and a gross exaction of the Committee to ask a row of Cabinet Ministers to come down here when, after all, I have the responsibility for the finances of the Admiralty, and I accept it all and am anxious to do my utmost to meet the various points which have been raised.
Question put, and agreed to.
Half Pay and Retired Pay
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £2,452,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Half Pay and Retired Pay, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
There are a great many Naval officers to-day who are retired under various schemes now in operation. There is a redundancy of commissioned officers in the Navy, and steps have been taken to give an opportunity to them to leave. The inducements given to Lieutenants and Lieutenant-Commanders are very great indeed, but when you get to the higher ranks the inducements are not very great, and there is a certain amount of heart-burning amongst these senior officers. This does not affect me, and I am not speaking from a personal point of view. I come under the lower ranks, and we have been very well treated in this matter, but I would point out three anomalies in the case of Commanders in the Royal Navy and retired Colonels in the Royal Marines which I think might be put right. If an officer retires as a Commander, he gets a pension according to the number of years' service, and for every 36 months he gets £36. If he retires after, say, 30 months he gets none of that extra £36 a year, and, as he may be drawing a pension for a number of years, this may affect him considerably. I do not think that that is altogether fair to these officers. I would suggest that if he retires, say, after 30 months, the broken time should be allowed to count in proportion. This suggestion would meet what is a very real grievance.
The second point is this: Officers who are placed on half pay for reasons beyond their control, that is, officers who have not applied to go on half pay, are given six months' full pay leave, but the officer who accepts the scheme which has been offered to officers does not get this full pay leave at all. An officer commander leaving the Navy and taking up work in, civil life has entirely to remodel his whole life, and very often has to make up a new business altogether. His retired pay is too little for him to live on. It would not be unfair if officers who accept the scheme voluntarily were to be given, at any rate, six months' full pay, in which they can live in some decency while looking around them for some new profession. Take an officer going in for farming who has probably got some knowledge of farming before. He learns quite suddenly one day that his voluntary retirement has been accepted by the Admiralty. He then goes ashore. It will take him some time to settle down on a farm. It is only fair that officers who avail themselves of this scheme of retirement should be entitled to six months' full pay. Otherwise, what happens is that an officer would rather be placed on the involuntary half pay, when he would get full pay for six months in any case. That means a loss to the State, and I think that it is altogether objection. able.
The third point is the question of gratuities to provide capital which might be of more value to the officers. Commanders are not allowed to commute a portion of their pension, while Lieutenants and Lieutenant-Commanders are. Many of these Commanders are men under 40 years of age. If they had a little capital they could set up business and be of great service to the country and to themselves as well. It is unfair that they should not be allowed to do this. Lieutenant-Commanders get £3,000 or £4,000 when they leave. That enables them to set up in business. A Lieutenant gets a lesser sum. A commander is not allowed to do that. If officers are prepared to take capital and start in business as long as they are under 40, it would be only fair that they should be permitted to do so. These are points which are agitating many of the more senior officers who are retired under the scheme. Their cases are very hard. They are men who would like to stop with the Service and spend their whole lives in it, but they are superfluous to the requirements and they are taking the not ungenerous offer of the Admiralty, but these are the hard cases which might be met at no great expense to the country and with great benefit to the men themselves.
I desire to refer to the case of officers who, having retired before the War, were called up again and have not received adequate treatment for their services during the War. The Committee set up recently to examine the question of pre-war pensions drew atten to these officers. They said that officers of the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines were called up from retirement and it had been represented that a difficulty arose with regard to these officers; it had been proposed that such officers should count their service in the rank to which they may have been promoted during the War for the assessment of pensions. I would ask the First Lord whether the case of these officers is being considered? I have put it to him several times myself and now the Committee on Pre-War Pensions has drawn attention to the matter. It is an injustice to those men, who have done four or five years' war service, that it has not counted for additional pension, as it certainly should. What is being done on this subject?
I have had frequently to go into the last point which has been raised. It has been raised on many occasions by hon. Members. I think that the practice which prevailed when the war broke out with regard to these officers is one which will have to be adopted in the other services as well. Prior to 1910 it was the practice for retired officers who were called up for mobilisation to have the extra service counted in their pension, but the change was made after the fullest consideration, and it was made in the interests of the officers themselves. A very large number of officers on the retired list had already reached their maximum pension before retirement and the regulation allowing them to count service on mobilisation for increase of retired pay would therefore have given them no advantage. Therefore, instead of such service counting for the increase of retired pay the regulation was introduced allowing officers to receive a bonus of 35 per cent. on the full pay of their rank. In the large majority of cases officers benefit by this rule. In some cases where officers had not reached the maximum of retired pay it would be to their advantage to count the service for retired pay instead of giving a bonus. These officers have already put forward a claim for reconsideration, and this has been done, but the Admiralty have decided that no change can be made. We have had this question under consideration several times and I am sorry to disappoint my hon. and gallant Friend, but the point has been settled, and I am afraid that there is no possibility of change, and I believe that the other services will have to adopt this system of ours.
Question put, and agreed to.
Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities and Compassionate Allowances
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £4,386,900, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
I want to call attention to the subject of pensions for the widows of Naval officers, as referred to on page 129 of these Estimates. The sum voted under that head this year is £112,000. The widows who participate in that sum are 2,022, and it can be calculated that the average pension to the widow of an officer is only about £56 a year. When I state that that includes the widows of Flag Officers, of Captains, of Commanders, of Chief Inspectors of Machinery, of Paymasters-in-Chief, and so on, it will be seen what a very small sum it is for the maintenance of these widows. It has to be remembered also that the widow of a flag officer gets more than the widow of a second mate. It will be seen, further, therefore, that although the average is £56 a year for all widows, some of the widows must get very small sums indeed. I appeal to the Admiralty to consider the position of these women. They have to sustain life and to keep themselves respectable, but that is practically impossible, because of the altered cost of living. On a following page of the Estimates we find the figures for the widows of marine officers, and later on there are the figures of the compassionate allowances for children. This year, in respect of 384 children, the sum granted is £5,750—a mere bagatelle. How these widows and these children manage to sustain life passes my comprehension. Naturally, in my constituency, I meet scores of Naval widows, and when I am appealed to by them on this subject I am unable to offer any explanation. I appeal to the First Lord to give this matter his consideration. The sum involved is small. Is it not possible to make some increase that will enable these widows and children to live a life of a little greater comfort?
I wish, also, to refer to the case of Stoker Petty Officer Bunnell, who was acting chief stoker, and died many years ago after having contracted yellow fever abroad. I have asked the Admiralty that his widow should be granted a pension. There was correspondence between myself and the former Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty (Dr. Macnamara), who sent me a statement under which claims have to be made in respect of these pensions. The Regulation states: contracted. That discovery has not been made very long. Just before the discovery some enthusiasts on the subject actually went and slept with yellow fever patients, put on their clothes, and did all sorts of things with the idea of becoming infected Then it was discovered that the disease was carried by mosquitoes, and that the bite conveyed infection. I understand the representative of the Admiralty will say that this particular petty officer was absent without leave, and therefore that it was not possible that he contracted the disease while on duty. But how can he tell that? How can any medical man tell that? I placed the whole of the facts before one of our eminent biologists, Sir Archdall Reid. He tells me that it is absolutely impossible for any medical man to say exactly when the disease was contracted in those parts.
There is a very important principle involved in this case. It affects not not only people who may contract yellow fever, but those who contract malaria or plague, and perhaps those who went to the Arctic regions and got frostbite. They contracted disease resulting from extraordinary exposure while on duty. The widow of this particular petty officer was ignorant of this clause until her friends pointed it out to her, and then they and her medical advisers approached me, and desired me to bring the matter before the House. It is altogether a different case from that of persons who contract ordinary diseases which can be contracted at home—such diseases, say, as phthisis or inflamation of the lungs, or ordinary English cholera. They have to go abroad for this particular disease of yellow fever. It seems to be perfectly clear that they are on duty in those parts, are there liable, by extraordinary exposure when on duty, to contract the, disease, and that they come within this regulation. The plague is brought about, by the bite of a flea, and malaria by the mosquito. We know that yellow fever has been practically stamped out. During the first attempt to construct the Panama Canal it was impossible for men to live in the canal zone owing to the yellow fever. With the aid of medical science and by doing away with all the swamps, yellow fever was stamped out in the region, and the Panama Canal was ultimately built. I question whether another case of this particular type will arise in the Navy. When I was approaching the former Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty on the subject, I drew his attention to the length of time that had passed since this petty officer's death had taken place, and I said I hoped the Admiralty would not take advantage of that long period of time. I have a letter here in which the Parliamentary Secretary told me that that point would not be taken into consideration, and that the case would be considered on its merits as if it had occurred quite recently.
I would like to add my voice to the advocacy on behalf of the widows of naval officers, and in regard to compassionate allowances. I know something about naval widows, and I know how hard a time they have. What is wanted in this matter is not merely an act of charity but an act of justice. I appeal to the First Lord to look at the question from a large points of view. I do not like the words "compassionate allowance"; I do not think anyone does. I think the time has come when the thing should be super-ceded by a wisely-adjusted system of contributory insurance, which will cover not only officers but men, a system under which officers and men will contribute and the State will help. The word "compassionate" would then disappear. A man would maintain his self-respect in making provision for his widow, and he would know there was recognition by the State of its responsibility to the dependants of those who had gone. If the First Lord will take that view of the case I feel certain that it will meet with the hearty approval of the Naval Service.
I would like to add my appeal on behalf of the naval officers' widows. Their case has been put forcibly by those who know better than I what is needed. If the Committee will stop to think about the matter it will realise that the pensions now given are really absurd. During the War and after the War we heard much of our gallant and wonderful men. Now, when it comes to the case of the widows of the men who laid down their lives, it surely is impossible that the House should be content to leave them with an average pension of £56 a year. As the hon. Member (Sir R. Hall) has just said, this is a question of simple justice. It is only justice to the men who laid down their lives. It is very difficult to speak on this subject in the way that one would like; it is rather like talking to someone at dinner who does not want to listen. The suffering of these women is pitiful, and it is borne with tremendous pride and with exactly the same spirit as that which was displayed by their husbands in the Navy. They cannot speak, and are not organised like some others, and cannot bring any pressure to bear. I think it will be a splendid thing for the Members of the House to press this matter, and to show in that way that they do mean what they say when they talk about our wonderful Navy and what we owe to it. I am perfectly certain that if the men who lay down their lives could be asked what they would like best they would say, "Just give our widows simple justice." The Navy is not only a protection to the country, but is a protection to the whole world. I plead with the House to deal with this matter in some way even in these days of economy, although I must say it makes me laugh to hear people talking of economy on the Navy, just the same as we heard before the War. I am glad there is one subject on which I can agree with the "Wee Frees," although there is a good deal as to which I disagree with them, but I do not understand how some of them can mention the Navy.
I would ask the First Lord and the Financial Secretary to look into this question. It is our duty as Members of the House of Commons to speak for these widows and to protect them. They have not got a living wage, and, as hon. Members have pointed out, they have not got enough to live in that decency to which they were accustomed. How they bear their position I do not know, and it is a mystery to everyone acquainted with them. As to this case of the man who died of yellow fever, there is a principle involved. These men go out to the countries where they are liable to contract such diseases, and that the Admiralty use some quibble or, I should say, make some excuse. That has a tremendously bad effect throughout the Navy, because they feel it is not justice to the men of the lower deck. The woman says, "I gave my husband, who would not have died if he were at home, and now I do not get any pension." I do not know about the details of this particular case, but it is the principle I would like to put in a word for.
I desire to support the plea which has been made on behalf of the widows of naval officers who, in many cases, are now receiving a most ridiculous pittance. I have risen also to support the plea put forward by my hon. Friend (Sir T. Bramsdon) as to the case of the man who died from yellow fever. From the medical point of view I was very interested in the way in which he explained so well that case as to a disease which is comparable to malaria and other illnesses which can only be contracted by men on military or naval service who are doing duty in foreign parts on our behalf. Through some oversight of the past the widow in this case has not got the justice she ought to have got. I am quite sure the First Lord would do a great deal of good by seeing that justice is done now, even through long past the time when it ought to have been done. The case is a typical one, and I hope it will be allowed.
I desire to support the suggestion of my hon. and gallant Friend (Sir R. Hall) as to a contributary system for officers as well as men of the Navy. I believe that the men are putting forward an actual scheme. I suggest it would be a very good thing if the First Lord were to put it to the officers as to whether it would not be a good thing for them to start something of that sort. That would get rid of the word "compassion." We do not want any compassion and would much prefer independence and a contributory system of insurance. I suggested some time ago that when a man married he should be given a separation allowance of a small amount in addition to his pay and out of that separation allowance would come his contribution towards insurance for his wife.
Naturally enough after spending a year in the Ministry of Pensions, I am quite able to pick up the feeling of the Committee with regard to pensions and to give my experience of the various difficulties with which we are confronted. All of us know that from time to time the House and Committee have been urging economy on the Government at every point. On some occasions and especially when pensions are mentioned we are asked to open the door for this, that or other special case. With regard to the widows and dependants of those who fell in the War, whether of the Navy or the Army, the Royal Warrants under which those pensions are granted, have been passed by this House and approved on a very recent occasion. Therefore the time to raise the question of the inadequacy of the pensions to widows and dependants was when the various statutes dealing with war pensions were under consideration by the House. There are pensions of widows and dependants of those who died in the services before the War and there are cases of pensions of those who are at present suffering from wounds or accidents which occurred in the Navy or in the Army and which are not attributable to the War, but to service on board ship or on duty in the Army. Those are classes by themselves. If the Noble Viscountess in dealing with the question of the pensions of widows and dependants was referring to those who were in receipt of pensions before the War, her case has already been met. As the Committee is aware, the Government have brought in a proposal, not yet worked out in full details, to augment the pensions in case of married people receiving up to £200 a year and to unmarried persons receiving £150 a year. In other words all those pensions, whether belonging to the Navy or the Army or any other services where hardship exists, within the limits I have indicated, will be revised according to the scale which the Leader of the House has already announced.
Does that apply to the widows' pensions as well?
That applies to the widows as well. That meets to a large extent the case in point that hon. Members have been bringing before the Committee. Them pensions have been reviewed so recently and have been dealt with, I consider, very liberally by the Government so that I doubt if it will be possible for me to hold out any hope with regard to the increase of pensions beyond what has been suggested by the Leader of the House—
Notice taken that Forty Members were not present; Committee counted and Forty Members being found present——
8.0 P.M.
We all sympathise with cases of hardship such as have been brought to our notice. The hon. and gallant Member (Sir R. Hall) threw out a suggestion that we might have some co-operative scheme in the future. I can only say I have not been sufficiently long in my office to have had time to consider that question, but I certainly will have in mind the question as to whether there should be something in the nature of co- operation in future with regard to pensions or compassionate allowances. I now take up the case of Bunnell. It is needless for me to say that I regret I cannot at once state that here is an isolated case which would cost very little money and that I would recommend that it should be granted at once. I only wish I could do so, but the number of cases of special hardship which are brought before anyone in my position are so numerous that that is why it is necessary to lay down regulations. As soon as my hon. Friend gave me notice that he intended to raise the case I first of all went carefully through the papers. I put entirely on one side the fact that this occurred some 26 years ago, and allowed nothing of that kind to prejudice me in taking up the case on the facts under the regulations which then existed, and one of which says that pensions are granted to widows of non commissioned officers, petty officers, and so on when it shall be proved to the satisfaction of the Admiralty that the injury or the disease was caused by an extraordinary exposure, etc. The difficulty is that of being able to prove to the satisfaction of our medical advisers the theory which the hon. gentleman has advanced with regard to this case. That was the first point that came to my notice. The second was that I sent for the papers recording the death of the man, and I have one dated st January, 1895. Then I said, "Is there anything at all that can be produced in proof that this man was on duty at the time?" I took the liberty of getting the log of the ship to see if there was any record of a landing party being sent off on duty to which the man might have belonged. I also got the chief medical adviser to Dome and see me yesterday, and I talked the whole matter over with him, but he said it was impossible for them to take the view under the circumstances which the hon. Member desires, seeing that there were two men who contracted fever and who had gone ashore on Boxing Day, and they were the only two out of the whole ship's company who had contracted fever. Therefore it appears that those who had remained on duty escaped from the fever, and those who had gone ashore and remained there after nightfall contracted the fever. I regret it is impossible under the circumstances for the Admiralty to reverse the decision already arrived at. I can only say that I have had perhaps as anxious a time as any hon. Member of the House for a whole year, on two days and sometimes three days a week, going into and adjudicating upon personally the individual cases of hardship that came up in the Pensions Ministry, and this is only one of very many, not of a similar nature, but of just as hard cases, that had to be decided upon. It is not a question of want of sympathy, but it is one of bringing the case under the Royal Warrants or under the Acts which govern the grants. If it can be brought under them the whole trend of my mind is not to show how this or that case can be escaped, but to show how it can be brought under the regulations, statutes or Royal Warrants, and naturally I am only too delighted to admit it if possible. My predecessor had carefully considered this particular case before I came into office, and I understand he wrote to my hon. Friend and told him he regretted it was impossible to admit it. I went into it equally fully and equally anxious to give justice in the matter, and I cannot see how the regulations can be complied with if we admit it
While acknowledging the sympathetic attitude which the hon. and gallant Gentleman has taken, I think he and his advisers have taken a very narrow view of the case, which is now limited down to the question as to whether or not the man was on duty at the time. I assume the Admiralty admit that if this man had contracted yellow fever while on duty, they would regard it as extraordinary exposure, and I think that it is a just view. Most medical opinion, I think, will agree that it is only by extraordinary exposure that any man will contract yellow fever, because he has got to go to certain parts of the world to get it; but it was on duty that this particular man went to that very part of the world. He was carried away from Britain on duty, and he contracted yellow fever while he was on this extraordinary duty, visiting a part of the world where men are liable to contract yellow fever. I think for the British Admiralty to rely upon the very small point that this man, with an Englishman's love of sport, perhaps—I do not know whether there is any sport on Boxing Day in those parts, but at any rate he was ashore, and it has not been proved to the House that he was not on duty. In any case, I think it is relying upon a very narrow interpretation of rules and regulations if this widow is to be deprived of her pension simply because technically the man was not-one duty while on shore. If the principle were admitted, I do not think it would be of very wide application or that it would cost the Admiralty very much. My hon. and gallant Friend has always taken a generous view of these cases at the Ministry of Pensions, but I am afraid the atmosphere he breathes at the Admiralty is not of quite the same character as he has been imbibing at the Ministry of Pensions.
I would like to deny that emphatically at once.
It is very generous of my hon. and gallant Friend to say that on behalf of the new environment into which he has been plunged, but I am sticking to my opinion all the same, that the attitude with regard to pensions at the Admiralty is not the same as at the Ministry of Pensions, and I am sorry he takes such a contracted view of the case, because the Admiralty are doing this widow out of her just pension on a small microscopic technicality as to whether he was on duty when on shore or only when he was on board ship. I would ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman to recall the soul that he developed at the Ministry of Pensions, and not to let it be starved in this contracted and ungenerous atmosphere of the Admiralty. Give this woman her pension.
There is one point which arises out of this pension case, because there is a War Pensions Bill coming on which proposes to hand back to the Admiralty all pre-war pension cases, which after a certain date will fall within the purview of my hon. and gallant Friend's Department. I should like to know if the hon. and gallant Gentleman will kindly look into it, and let me know, probably at some later date, what it costs to administer this £4,500,000.
Question put, and agreed to.
Civil Superannuation, Compensation Allowances, and Gratuities
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £861,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Civil Superannuation, Compensation Allowances, and Gratuities, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
I should like to ask my hon. and gallant Friend a question in regard to the heading E.E.; the amount for grants under the Injuries in War Compensation schemes goes up from £70,000 to £115,000. I am rather interested to know the explanation of that increase. So far as I know, trying to obtain any help or allowance for the family of any man who lost his life while employed by the Admiralty, although not in the Admiralty, was one of the most difficult tasks we ever had to achieve as private Members of the House. I thought it was more or less settled, unless this is a continuing sum from year to year. Will the hon. Gentleman say how many grants have been made under that war compensation scheme to the men and their families, whether altogether or separately, whatever he has figures for?
I thought the actual number was on page 138, but I see it is not given there, but I will find it out.
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday, 10th June; Committee to sit again To-morrow.
Supply.—Report (4th May]
Imperial War Graves Commission
Resolution reported,
"That a sum, not exceeding £991,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for certain Salaries of the Imperial War Graves Commission and a Grant in Aid of the Imperial War Graves Commission Fund, formed under Royal Charter, 10th May, 1917."—[Note.—£500,000 has been voted on account.]
Resolution agreed to.
Supply.—Report [17th May]
Navy Estimates, 1920–21
Resolutions reported,
1. "That a sum, not exceeding £7,864,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Victualling and Clothing for the Navy, including the cost of Victualling Establishments at Home and Abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
2. "That a sum, not exceeding £677,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the expense of medical services, including the cost of medical establishments at home and abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
3. "That a sum, not exceeding £504,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Civilians employed on Fleet Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
4. "That a sum, not exceeding £430,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Educational Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
5. "That a sum, not exceeding £302,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Scientific Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
6. "That a sum, not exceeding £6,260,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of Naval Armaments, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
First to Fourth Resolutions agreed to.
Fifth Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
There was a question which my right hon. Friend the Member for Peebles (Sir D. Maclean) gave notice that he wished to ask. When discussing this in Committee, a question was raised with regard to L.L. (Compass Department) as to the increase from £15,000 to £25,000 in 1920–21.
The increase of £10,000 is due, first of all, to increase in war bonus, and it covers also extra provision which we are making now for special instructional and experimental work. It also includes certain naval stores which last year were provided in Vote A. Further than that, work is done by the Sir Ministry for which repayment will be made, and the estimated amount is £5,000. In addition to that, there is a proposal to pay a war bonus which is not yet approved by the Treasury.
Question put, and agreed to.
Sixth Resolution read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
It being a quarter-past Eight of the Clock, and there being Private Business set down by the direction of the Chairman of Ways and Means under Standing Order No. 8, further proceeding was postponed, without Question put.
Private Business
LAND DRAINAGE (OUSE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL. [By Order.]
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time To-morrow.
Supply.—Report [17th May]
Navy Estimates, 1920–21
Postponed proceeding resumed on Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the Resolution
"That a sum, not exceeding £6,260,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the expense of Naval Armaments, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921."
When the Committee stage was taken, there was some Debate on Vote 7 reserved, and the right hon. Gentleman agreed to withdraw that Vote if we gave him, I think, the next Vote, and therefore the Committee stage on this Vote, for this very considerable sum, passed without any discussion at all.
It was settled by arrangement.
There are one or two points I would like to raise on this Vote. The first is that which relates to salaries and allowances. I only want to ask if we are going to keep Scapa and neighbourhood in the nature of a permanent naval establishment? I ask that with the object of ascertaining that all economies are being effected. I think I am right in saying that Scapa Flow in the future will be principally used as an exercise station for the Fleet, and its use as a great naval base, as in the late War, is very unlikely indeed owing to natural developments. I have noticed considerable sums in these Estimates, in the aggregate for Scapa Flow, and I would like to ask if this is simply temporary, or whether it is intended to spend money there? I submit that Scapa Flow is a very excellent natural exercising ground, and does not need any money spent on it now. There is one other item I have in my mind, and that is Item G—the biggest in the Estimates—for £1,600,000 for projectiles, quick-firing, machine-guns, etc.
If hon. Members will turn to page 5 of the Estimates they will see that previous Votes 9 were a good deal less than this one. For example, in 1911 it was £3,800,000. In 1912 it was £4,365,000, and in 1913 it was £4,700,000. We are now asked to vote £6,250,000. I think we ought to look very carefully at the reasons for this expenditure. I turn to the biggest separate item to which I have referred, and it surprises me. It is practically £1,700,000. It requires some justification. We have a tremendous store of ammunition on hand, and I do not know why it is necessary to budget for more projectiles or guns. You must have a superabundance in stock. Particularly I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether this expenditure is due to special operations of the Navy in the Black Sea or the Baltic? We have been expending a good deal of ammunition in those seas. There is, what I think I am right in calling, "a sort of private war" going on in the Black Sea, run by the Department of the right hon. Gentleman, in opposition to the declared policy of the Government. I am very curious to know what this war is costing the country. I did not give my right hon. Friend previous notice because, like other hon. Members, I was not prepared for this Vote coming on to-night. But I think he can tell us, for we know he carefully scrutinises every item of expenditure, whether it be £1 or £10. Is any of this expenditure due to this private war that his Department is running in the Black Sea? Our ships are bombarding coast roads, coastal communications, villages, and bridgeheads. That is costing a good deal of money. In these days of crushing taxation and great Government expenditure it is the duty of this House carefully to examine all sources of what may be wastage.
The hon. and gallant Gentleman has discovered a new sin on my part. He now attributes to me what he calls a private naval war that is being waged because of my devilish love of war.
Your Department!
The hon. and gallant Gentleman is really mistaken. I am not over eager to defend myself in this matter; but as a matter of fact the Admiralty has no power to play games of this kind. Neither the Navy nor the Admiralty make war. Wars are made by other Departments, and the Navy has to fight them—which is a very different thing. In this case, in connection with the operations either in the Black Sea or the Baltic, the only responsibility I have is that which I hold as a Member of the Cabinet, jointly with my colleagues. That responsibility I am prepared to accept. The hon. and gallant Gentleman may be happy about this: that the expenditure on these projectiles, and so on, is not due to anything either in the Baltic or in the Black Sea.
He is quite right in his belief in respect to Scapa. It is closed down as a naval base, and in future will be used only as a practising and exercise ground for the fleet. During the War, as he knows, the whole coast was surrounded by naval bases which were created by the Admiralty for the purposes of the War. One of the first things we did last year—and I myself went with one of my naval colleagues and officials of the Admiralty—was to go round to these naval bases, and examine them on the spot. After discussion and advice from the naval and civilian advisers of the Admiralty at each place, and every item of expenditure being looked into, we made decisions. Already we have closed down a good many of the bases. The Committee will realise we cannot possibly close them all down in a few months. To close these places down is almost as difficult—in fact, in some senses more difficult—than to bring them into existence. There is no cause for anxiety. We have already closed many, including Scapa, except as I have stated. What we shall do will be to retain for the purpose of the Navy places like Scapa as exercise and training grounds, and such other naval bases as we regard as essential. We are closing down all the rest, and we shall certainly not spend more money than we can help. As regards the projectiles, the hon. Member knows perfectly well you cannot stand still in a question of this kind. There have been immense developments in consequence of the War, and all we are doing is to secure that there shall be sufficient of this material for the fleet. As a matter of fact, we have considerably reduced what was thought before the War to be the necessary complement. We have actually gone below that. I do not think there is any cause for criticism. We are adopting what is an absolute minimum. We hope there will be no cause for their use, but I am convinced that the Committee and the country wishes that our Navy shall be up-to-date and efficient. That is the end and aim of the Admiralty, and that is what we are trying to achieve.
Question put, and agreed to.
The remaining Orders were read and postponed.
ADJOURNMENT.—Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Sir R. Sanders. ]
Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-nine minutes before Nine o'clock.