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Commons Chamber

Volume 129: debated on Thursday 3 June 1920

House of Commons

Thursday, June 3, 1920

New Writ

For Borough of Nelson and Colne, in the room of Captain Albert Smith (Manor of Northstead).—[ Mr. Tyson Wilson. ]

Private Business

Private Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders not previously inquired into complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, originating in the Lords, and referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders not previously inquired into, and which are applicable thereto, have been complied with, namely:—

Manchester Corporation Bill[ Lords ], Bill to be read a Second time.

Provisional Order Bills (No Standing Orders applicable),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, namely:—

Pilotage Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill,

Pilotage Provisional Orders (No. 2)Bill,

Bills to be read a Second Time Tomorrow.

Llandrindod Wells Urban District Council Bill [ Lords ],

As amended, considered; to be read the Third Time.

Edinburgh Boundaries Extension and Tramways Bill[ Lords ](by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next, at a quarter-past Eight of the clock.

Dumbarton Burgh Gas Order Confirmation Bill.

Considered; to be Read a Third Time To-morrow.

Prices (Ireland)

Return ordered, "showing to the latest year available, for Ireland as a whole, (1) the annual average prices for each year from 1881; (2) the annual average prices for each period comprised in the period from 1881 of five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, and 25 years, and for the period of six years from 1909; such prices to be compiled from the Returns of Prices of crops, live stock, and other Irish agricultural products heretofore published from time to time by the Irish Land Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, or from other information in the possession of those Departments."—[ Colonel Newman. ]

Oral Answers to Questions

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Medical Staff

asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention has been called to an advertisement issued by the Minister of Health, inviting medical men to apply for appointments in the Ministry of Health at salaries of £1,000, rising to £1,400 per annum, with pension rights, etc.; whether these appointments are calculated to draw medical officers from the Ministry of Pensions; and whether he can see his way to giving similar salaries and advantages to the medical staff employed by the Ministry of Pensions?

My attention has been drawn to the advertisement in question, which related to certain appointments offered by the Ministry of Health of a permanent character, requiring special scientific qualification. It is, of course, open to the medical members of my staff to become candidates. I cannot undertake to revise the scales of remuneration of the temporary medical service of the Ministry of Pensions, which were settled so recently as January of the present year. It is not yet possible to forecast the permanent medical arrangements which will be necessary for the purposes of the Ministry.

Is the right hon. Gentleman taking any steps to place disabled medical men in appointments such as this?

Oh, yes; quite a large number of disabled medical men, certainly men who have served, are now on the staff.

Disabled Men (Training)

asked the Minister of Pensions if a soldier on leave who loses his right arm by enemy action during an air raid is deprived of pension on the ground that his injury is not due to war service; and, if so, will he state how can this man at least receive the benefit of the necessary training and grant for injured men?

I find that the practice is as stated in the first part of the question. If, however, the injury sustained led to the soldier's discharge he may be eligible for a gratuity under Article 7 (1) of the Royal Warrant. As regards the second part of the question, I am informed that the man would be considered for training by the Ministry of Labour, and should make application to the nearest Divisional Director of Industrial Training.

Ireland

History Manuals

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the history manuals which he recently placed in the Library of the House of Commons are still in use in the Irish national schools, or whether their use has been objected to and discontinued; whether he is aware that an Irish history, written by a Mr. Murphy and dedicated to Father Findlay, is, or was until recently, in use in these schools; and whether he will place a copy of this Irish history in the Library of this House?

:Sanction for the historical text- books referred to has been withdrawn, and, so far as the Commissioners of National Education are aware, the use of these books in national schools has been discontinued. A short History of Ireland by the late Reverend Denis Murphy (edited by the Reverend T. A. Finlay) was sanctioned for use in national schools some years ago, but was not included in the lists of sanctioned books issued in 1911 and subsequently. The question of sanctioning this work was considered by the Commissioners in the year 1916, but as the book was then out of print no action was taken beyond requesting the publishers to submit a proof of edition, should it be reprinted. The book has not since been reprinted, and consequently the Commissioners are unable to supply a copy to the Library of the House of Commons.

How long was this book in use? Was it withdrawn in consequence of its being objectionable?.

Republican Flag, Cork

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that on Wednesday, 26th May, a motion was carried at a meeting of the Cork Harbour Board that in future the flag of the Irish Republic be floated from the flagstaff on Admiralty Pier, Queenstown, and on all buildings under the control of the board; and what steps he proposes to take to secure that the Union Jack and not the Irish Republican flag be flown in the future, as in the past, on these buildings and premises?

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to a resolution, which was adopted at a meeting of the Cork Harbour Board on Wednesday, 26th May, 1920, to the effect that in future the flag of the Irish Republic should be floated from the flagstaff on the Admiralty Pier, Cove, and all other buildings under control of the harbour board, as the board considered that the time had arrived when the foreigners should get notice to cuit; and if he will say what steps are being taken in the matter?

I have seen a statement in the Press to the effect men- tioned in the first part of the question. I am not aware whether any action has been taken to carry out this resolution, but I will have inquiries made.

Supposing it is true—as I believe it is—does the Irish Government intend to allow this to continue?

Constabulary(Recognition of Gallantry)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in view of the fact that some 35 members of the Royal Irish Constabulary and Dublin Metropolitan Police have been killed and twice the number wounded since 1st January last, he will institute a medal or decoration to be granted to the officers and men of these two forces who have shown special gallantry in the execution of their duty under circumstances dangerous to life and limb; and, if so, whether to avoid delay, power will be given to the official heads of these two forces to bestow this medal or decoration on. their own initiative?

Could not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman consider the issue of a medal to the police of this country as well as to the police of Ireland?

Police Barracks Attacked, Cullybackey

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can give any further information about the burning of the police barracks at Cully-backey, county Antrim, on the 30th May; whether any arrests have been made in connection with the outrage; and can he say what steps he proposes to take to prevent the recurrence of similar crimes in the neighbourhood?

About 3 a.m. on 30th ultimo a party of armed and disguised men demanded entrance in the name of the Irish Republic to the vacated barrack at Cullybackey, about four miles from Ballymena. They were admitted by a constable, who with his family occupied the house. They ordered the constable and his family to leave, then they removed some of the constable's furniture, spilt petrol in each of the rooms, and set it alight. They then "fell in" and marched off in file. The inhabitants of the village turned out and helped to extinguish the fire before much damage was done. No arrests have been made. All practicable steps are being taken to prevent recurrences of such outrages.

:Did these people come up in a motor car; if so, how is it that they are able to obtain motor cars in view of the fact that permits have to be granted by the Government to people before they can get motor cars?

I cannot give an answer in reference to this particular case; but the common plan of these raiders is first of all to raid for motor cars and then to use the raided motor car for the ultimate raid.

Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman give an assurance that in this part of Ireland there are sufficient troops available to prevent a recurrence of this kind of thing among a population which is entirely loyal to the British Crown?

Everything is done by means of the police and the troops to assist well-disposed persons. I hope that part of Ireland from which my hon. Friend comes will need only a minimum of troops, because of the loyalty—as he says—of the population.

Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman do anything to restrict the use of petrol, so as to prevent it falling into the hands of Irish anarchists?

Signal Station, Mizen Head

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he can make any statement with reference to the damage inflicted on the signal station at Malin Head; whether the damage is irreparable; and whether similar damage to other signal stations and similar institutions in Ireland by-Irish anarchists is being guarded against?

Nothing is known of the damage being inflicted on Malin Head Station, but I understand that some material has been removed from the Mizen Head Station. As regards the last part of the question, steps have been taken to prevent similar occurrences.

Have questions relating to damage done to Naval property in Ireland to be addressed to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, or to the First Lord of the Admiralty?

This particular question was sent to me by the First Lord, so I have answered it: that does not necessarily form a precedent.

Malicious Injury (Compensation Awards)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will state what steps the Government intend to take to ensure that the amounts awarded as compensation for malicious injury during the present campaign of wanton destruction of property in Ireland by rebels shall not fall on well-disposed subjects of His Majesty, who are in the main the ratepayers?

:Under the provisions of the Criminal Injuries Act, 1919, the County Court Judge and the Judge of Assize, in making a decree, can exempt from the levy any premises that they think fit, and this power is frequently exercised in favour of the class of persons referred to in the question.

Is the right hon. and gallant Gentleman willing to give a Return to the House showing in what cases that power has been exercised?

My hon. and gallant Friend knows I must have notice of a question of that kind, because, as he will see, it entails a very great deal of work.

Is it not the fact that these compensation claims are levied on the country at large?

That is the rule, and I think it is a sound rule. I may say, further, that all damage that is done in a given local area will ultimately fall upon the ratepayers of that area, although in the interval the Government is taking steps to ensure that no innocent person is kept out of compensation for any undue length of time.

Kilmallock Barracks (Constables' Deaths)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, owing to the prevailing terrorism, the coroner was unable to procure a jury to investigate the circumstances under which Sergeant Kane and Constable Morton lost their lives during the attack on Kilmallock Barracks on the night of 27th May by a large body of rebels; and whether the Government intend to take steps to substitute some other form of inquiry by which a true verdict according to the evidence can be obtained in such cases?

It is true that in this case the coroner summoned a jury to hold inquests on the two dead policemen, but only four responded. No inquest was held. With regard to the last part of the question the matter is under consideration.

Have the two men who were identified in the act of committing this murder yet been arrested?

Illegal Courts

asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether he is aware that on Thursday, 27th May, a large Sinn Fein Court was held at Ballinasloe Town Hall under the Republican flag, that the Court promulgated injunctions and decisions, that it was presided over by a barrister of the High Court, and that some eight or ten solicitors of the Irish circuit argued cases; and what steps he proposes to take to deal officially with this barrister and these solicitors who have taken part in the proceedings of a Court illegally held under the Republican flag?

I have seen in the Press a statement to the effect mentioned in the question. I am having inquiries made as to its truth.

What will happen to this barrister and solicitors who have taken part in these illegal proceedings as regards their position at the Bar?

In the case of the barrister that is a matter for the Benchers of King's Inns, and in the case of the solicitor for the Incorporated Law Society.

Do I understand that the Crown has no power to deal with a barrister or solicitors who have taken part in treasonable and illegal proceedings?

As I have already said, in the case of the barrister the matter is in the hands of the Benchers of King's Inns and in the hands of the Incorporated Law Society in the case of the solicitor. So far as any criminal offence is concerned, if evidence is available the Crown will move.

Is not the Irish Government in London kept informed of these things as they take place without having to wait for questions being put in the House of Commons to bring them to their notice?

The Irish Government in London is informed of all these things and a great many other things. Because questions are put in the House of Commons it must not be assumed that the Government was not aware of the facts before the questions are put down.

I wish the hon. and learned Gentleman would be more specific and name what courts he means.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that in various parts of the country totally illegal courts have been held and orders and injunctions have been issued, and will he take steps to put an end to this gross illegality?

There are not numerous courts of the nature indicated by the hon. Gentleman. There have been meetings of men under various names for various purposes. Those meetings are illegal and will be dealt with as far as and as quickly as we can, but many of the meetings cannot be called illegal.

Why did the military not occupy the town hall of Ballinasloe where these courts have been held?

It is impossible for me to answer a question of that kind. The military have many and serious duties put upon them, and they are doing their best under most difficult circumstances.

Sinn Fein Delegate, Rome

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the fact that Mr. John O'Kelly, the diplomatic extraordinary delegate of the government of the Irish Republic gave a reception in Rome on the occasion of the beatification of Oliver Plunkett during the past week, and those present included many of the Irish Roman Catholic bishops, and that Cardinal Logue stated that this was the first time Irishmen had attended a gathering of the Irish Republic in Rome; and whether he will take steps through the ordinary diplomatic channel to inform His Holiness the Pope that the Irish Republic is not and never will be recognised by His Majesty's Government.

The Foreign Office has no knowledge of the alleged fact.

Land Purchase Bill

asked the Prime Minister when it is proposed to introduce the Irish Land Purchase Bill?

Can the right hon Gentleman say whether it is still the intention of the Government, as announced by the Leader of the House, to carry this Bill through concurrently with the Government of Ireland Bill?

In the absence of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Bonar Law), I could not answer that; I would rather leave it to him.

Mail Robberies

asked the Postmaster-General if he can state the amour of money which has been stolen from the mails in Ireland during the present year?

I cannot at present add anything to the answer furnished by my hon. Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland to a similar question asked by the hon. Member for Wood Green on the 6th of May.

Persia

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether ships or soldiers of the Muscovite Government are still in possession of the Persian part of Enzeli or any other part of Persian territory; whether Persian Azerbaijan is threatened with invasion by Russian troops; whether the Persian Government has appealed to the Council of the League of Nations and, if so, when and where the Council of the League will meet to discuss the appeal of the Persian Government; and if any instructions have been given to the British representative on the Council of the League in regard to this matter.

The Soviet forces have not yet withdrawn from Enzeli. But it is believed that this will shortly take place. We have no information as to a threatened Russian invasion of Persian Azerbaijan. It is for the Persian Government to appeal to the Council of the League of Nations if they desire to do so, and this step they have already taken.

Mexico

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government proposes to recognise the new Government in Mexico?

His Majesty's Government have not yet been asked to recognise any new Government in Mexico. As soon as any such request is received from any duly authorised representative of that Government, the matter will receive careful consideration.

Russia

Soviet Trade Delegation

RELEASE OF BRITISH PRISONERS.

STATEMENT BY PRIME MINISTER.

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether negotiations have been commenced with M. Krassin, and if so, will he state what is the purpose of these negotiations, and have they been commenced with the assent and co-operation of the Governments of France and Italy; what are the credentials of M. Krassin, and for whom is he acting.

( by Private Notice ) asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the conflicting statements circulated in connection with the reception of M. Krassin by Members of His Majesty's Government, and the consequent disquieting effect on the public mind, both here and in France, he can explain the purpose of the conversations with the delegate of the Russian Soviet Government?

The decision to permit trade with Russia was arrived at by the meeting of the Supreme Council held in Paris on 16th January this year. This decision was reaffirmed at a further meeting of the Supreme Council held in London on the 24th February.

At San Remo, on the 26th April, the Supreme Council decided to authorise representatives of the Allied Governments to meet M. Krassin and the Russian trade delegation then at Copenhagen, with a view to the immediate re-starting of trade relations between Russia and other countries, through the intermediary of the co-operative organisations and otherwise. It further decided that the "Allied representatives will be prepared to discuss with the Russian delegates the best method of removing the obstacles and difficulties in the way of the resumption of peaceful trade relations, with a desire of finding solutions in the general interests of Europe."

At the same time, the names of the Russian delegates were considered, and it was decided that the Allied representatives should meet M. Krassin, and the Russian delegates—except Litvinoff, in London—at the earliest date. M. Krassin is head of a delegation represent- ing the Russian Co-operative Organisations, but he is also a Minister of the Soviet Government, and as such is acting in the name and under the authority of the Soviet Government.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why this very interesting statement is now made for the first time?

Obviously my Noble Friend does not pay any particular attention to statements made by Members of the Government. I made the statement myself in the House some time ago. In addition to that, the actual text of the Resolution was published in all the papers officially, and has been communicated officially by the Supreme Council.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is a fact that the Russian Co-operative Societies have now been taken over, and form a Department of the Soviet Government?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether M. Krassin was originally a German agent, who subsequently took employment in Russia?

I do not think he was a German agent. He was associated, I believe, with a German firm of electricians, or something of that sort; but he is a Russian.

Are the representatives of the Allied Governments taking any part in these negotiations, or are the negotiations proceeding only with the British Government?

Oh, no. There are certain questions which the British Government want to be cleared out of the way before they would undertake negotiations at all. One is the question of prisoners. We shall also want some guarantees that there will be no attack made upon British interests in the East—[An HON. MEMBER: "Or at home."]—Yes, or at home—while we are negotiating. These things we must clear out of the way for ourselves. The negotiations as to trade will then be conducted by representatives of all the Governments. The representatives of the French Government and of the Italian Government are here and prepared to proceed with the negotiations.

Are we to assume that the perturbation of French public opinion is entirely unjustified, and that the French Government are parties to all the negotiations which are going on at this moment?

I am not at all aware that there is any "perturbation" of French public opinion. There may have been statements in certain newspapers, which are trying to foment trouble and ill-feeling between two friendly allied countries, whose friendliness is essential to the welfare of the world, but that is no proof that French public opinion is perturbed.

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any information as to the recent capture of British naval officers and men by the Bolsheviks at Baku; and, if so, what steps he has taken to secure their immediate release?

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that 18 officers, non-commissioned officers, and private soldiers are still held prisoner by the Bolshevist Government in Siberia, in addition to those in prison at Moscow; and whether, before any further negotiations are carried out with M. Krassin, assurances will be obtained that these officers and men will be put over the frontier as soon as possible?

asked the Prime Minister whether the British naval mission captured at Baku has yet been released: and, if not, whether he will take steps to see that M. Krassin is detained here under similar conditions until this is accomplished?

An undertaking to release British prisoners is an indispensable preliminary of the renewal of trading relations with Russia.

Would it not be better to see that these officers and men are over the frontier before we go on negotiating with the representative of this Government of torturers and scoundrels?

:Why was no publicity given to this question, which is one of supreme importance?

There is a question on that later on, and I will then give my reasons.

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question as to whether he will see that M. Krassin is detained here under similar conditions until the prisoners are released?

CROFT: May I ask whether, having regard to the fact that no one is aware of the number of officers and men who have been taken prisoner, he can give the House the number here and now. Is the right hon. Gentleman's answer intended to convey the fact that no negotiations of any kind will take place until every British citizen, however humble, is released from captivity?

The condition, of course, covers every British subject, whether military or civilian, and of whatever rank or grade?

Does the right hon. Gentleman's answer apply only to British subjects or does it also apply to subjects of our Allies?

That would be a matter for negotiation, I think, by the other Governments. I am not aware that they are in the same position. I know about our own prisoners, but not about those of our Allies.

Trade Relations

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a statement has recently been issued by the Supreme Economic Council giving particulars of the proposed regulations for trading with Russia; whether he is aware that this document has been published in the Press in Italy and France; and, if so, will he take steps to see that this document is issued for publication in Great Britain?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. The second and third parts do not therefore arise.

Eastern Siberia (Japanese Operations)

asked the Prime Minister whether Japanese military operations for the occupation of Eastern Siberia were undertaken after consulta- tion either with the Supreme Council or with the Council of the League of Nations; and whether the Government will ask for a statement of the Japanese action and intentions in Eastern Siberia before entering into negotiations for the renewal of the Anglo-Japanese alliance?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As at present advised, His Majesty's Government do not propose to act in the sense of the second part of the hon. Member's question.

Great Britain and Soviet Russia

asked the Prime Minister if a state of war exists at the present time between Great Britain and Soviet Russia?

Seizure of Property (Compensation)

asked the Prime Minister if he can state that, before any negotiations for commercial business are entered into with any representatives of the Soviet Government of Russia, that Government will be required to restore to the English and French companies affected the properties which they had purchased in the Russian Empire, and which they were occupying when they were dispossessed of them by the Soviet Government, together with their offices, books, and cash which were appropriated forcibly; and if due compensation will be required to be paid to such companies for such unlawful seizure?

I do not think it would be desirable, whilst negotiations are proceeding, to publish details of the questions discussed and demands put forward.

May I take it that this will be clearly provided for, as it is a matter of such vital importance to shareholders in this country and France, whose position is now so hazardous?

I can assure my hon. Friend that this has not been lost sight of. I am only deprecating a discussion taking place at the moment. To go into detailed questions now will not help the negotiations, but I realise fully the importance of the matter, which has been, and is, the subject of careful consideration.

Ex-Service Men

University Education

asked the President of the Board of Education whether the State is still giving gratuitous education at the universities to demobilised officers of the Navy and Army; and, if so, how long it is proposed to continue this appropriation of funds?

The Government scheme for assisting ex-service students to follow courses of higher education is still in operation. No new awards will be granted on applications made after the 30th June, 1920; but awards already granted on application made on or before that date will be continued until the conclusion of the courses approved for the students in question.

Do I understand that fresh applications may be made up to the end of the current month?

Is it not a fact that in the War Pensions Bill the date fixed is 30th July? Does my right hon. Friend propose to deprive officers of the privileges to which they are entitled?

It is anticipated that all the applications likely to come in are likely to have come in by the 30th of June.

To what extent is it proposed to devote public funds to this counsel of perfection? Is there to be a large number of officers admitted in the future to university education at the expense of the taxpayers, or is the number to be limited?

The number is to be limited in point of time. I wish to point out, however, that no applications will be received after the 30th of June, 1920, and that imposes a limitation on the number.

Are the numbers up to the 30th June without any limitation? Does that mean that practically any any officer at the present time may apply to my right hon. Friend for a university education at the taxpayers' expense? [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"]

Before a grant is made an officer has to satisfy me, firstly, that he has served in the War for a period of at least six months before the armistice; secondly, that he is in want of assistance and could not undergo a university education without assistance; and thirdly, that he is qualified for it by the courses he has undertaken to pursue.

Why should officers who are not yet demobilised at the request of the Government be deprived of the benefits of this educational scheme?

Government Establishments (Discharges)

asked the Prime Minister if, in view of his statement to the National Federation of Discharged and Demobilised Soldiers and Sailors, that a certain order of discharge from Woolwich and other Government factories would be maintained, that is to say, non-service men engaged since the War, non-service men engaged during the War, ex-service men of the Great War, disabled service men, and pre-War employés, he can say if this applies or is to apply to Government dockyards?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The answer is in the affirmative.

Clerks, Government Departments

asked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that ex-soldiers under 21 who have fought in the War and are now employed as clerks in record and other offices under the War Office and other Departments receive a considerably lower rate of pay than clerks over 21; and whether it is possible to treat clerks under 21, who have fought in the War, on a somewhat different footing from civilian clerks under 21 who have not fought, and to give these ex-service clerks the same rate of pay as if they had attained 21?

I am aware of the facts as stated in the first part of the question. The existing differentiation in the rates of pay of temporary male clerks above and below the age of 21 years is at present under the consideration of the Treasury, and I hope in due course to be able to announce a decision on the subject.

Will the hon. Gentleman give due consideration to the fact that a man under 21 who has fought in the War ought to be treated differently from a man under 21 who has not fought in the War?

Police Women (London)

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will say how many policewomen are now employed, paid, and clothed in London at the public expense; whether any corresponding reduction has been made in the numbers of the policemen on account of the employment of such policewomen; what powers are possessed by the latter other than such as are possessed by members of the public; whether the policewomen are under the same discipline as policemen; whether they are permanently appointed; and what duties are discharged by the policewomen who perambulate the parks.

The number of women police employed in connection with the Metropolitan Police is 112. No reduction has been made in the men police. The women police have no special powers: but this point is under the consideration of a Committee. They are under the same discipline as men police. They are at present enrolled for one year only. They patrol the parks in order to assist in the observance of the law and the park regulations and to give advice to young persons of their own sex who appear to be in need of it.

Has the consideration of the Committee been directed to giving them extra powers, and if they have no powers other than such as are possessed by members of the public what advantage results from the expenditure of public funds upon their entertainment?

The Committee are going into the whole question and I hope that they will report very shortly.

German Embassy (Theodore Schlagentweit)

asked the Home Secretary whether one Theodore Schlagentweit was prior to the War German Consul in Manchester; what were the circumstances leading to his deportation; what was his record during the War; whether he is now attached to the German Embassy here; and, if so, why such permission was accorded?

The answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. This man was repatriated. His previous record during the War was that he was convicted in August, 1914, for travelling more than five miles without a permit and was subsequently interned until the date of his repatriation. He is not, so far as I am aware, attached to the German Legation here, but he came recently to this country as a diplomatic courier. No question of granting any permission arose: but I am considering whether the British Government should take any steps with regard to the matter in the future.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a very strong suspicion in Manchester that facts with regard to the Manchester Regiment were conveyed to Germany by this gentleman, who had a brother commanding the forces which were actually opposed to the Manchester Regiment?

No, Sir. I am not aware of these suspicions in regard to the Manchester Regiment.

If I give the right hon. Gentleman the facts will he carefully consider them before he decides this case?

asked the Home Secretary whether a former German spy, Theodore Schlagentweit, has been allowed re-entry into this country; whether this man was known to have moved about amongst troops of the East Lancashire Division at Turton and Edgeworth during mobilisation, and to have visited ports and defended places on the South Coast in August, 1914; whether he was detained by the Manchester police, and afterwards allowed to return to Germany by the Home Office; and whether it is intended to allow known former enemy spies entry into this country?

Theodore Schlagentweit has recently come to this country as a diplomatic courier. I am not aware of any evidence that would entitle me to describe him as a spy. He was on one occasion seen motoring near Turton, and this led to his conviction for travelling more than five miles without a permit, and to his subsequent internment until he was repatriated. Persons known to have been enemy spies will certainly not be allowed to enter this country.

De Keyser's Hotel

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the decision given against the Crown in the case of the De Keyser's Hotel, he will say whether it is intended to proceed with, or to introduce legislation, to set aside the decision; and, if not, what is the position of a subject who has had his property occupied by a Government Department, and has not as yet received or agreed to ex gratiâ compensation for such occupation?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply. I do not think "that the Indemnity Bill can be correctly described as a Bill to set aside the decision referred to. It is intended, as my hon. and gallant Friend is aware, to proceed with the Bill, which it is believed makes suitable provision for compensation in the class of cases mentioned in the question.

What is the position of a subject who has a claim against the Government? Has he to wait until the new Bill is passed?

I do not think so. It may well be that if he commences proceedings, he may find that they are afterwards superseded by legislation.

Banking Accounts (Transfer to Foreign Countries)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the great increase in banking businesses that is carried on in such towns as Geneva or Amsterdam since the War; and what steps is he taking to prevent the transfer of banking accounts from this country to the places mentioned, with the consequent danger of such accounts escaping their just share of taxation?

As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated on 20th March, if my hon. and gallant Friend has information tending to show that taxation is evaded by the increase of banking business abroad, he would be glad if he would communicate with him. Interest on bank deposits is usually paid by British banks without deduction for Income Tax, and the taxpayer is under precisely the same obligation to include in his return interest on deposits abroad, as he is to include interest on deposits at home.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this banking business has greatly increased?

I think that the increase is common to this country as well as foreign countries.

Housing

Business Premises

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the large numbers of business men and retail shop-keepers who are being compelled to give up their premises at the expiration of their lease and are unable to find alternative accommodation owing to the present shortage of houses; what action does he propose to take; and will he say if he has considered the recently established Danish system of rent courts to deal with cases at issue between landlord and tenant?

I have been asked to answer this question. I hope to be able to make a statement on this matter to-morrow.

Building Materials

asked the Minister of Health whether he can state the amount of building materials which have been acquired by the Director of Building Materials, the amount that he has disposed of, and the amount that he has in stock.?

:Owing to the hon. Member's absence at Question time yesterday, I circulated the answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I was here at Question time yesterday. I put the question, and postponed it at the request of the hon. Gentleman. If it is circulated I am quite satisfied.

I presumed the hon. Member was away studying the site value of the Epsom racecourse.

I was here yesterday. I put the question. Subsequently I received a letter from the hon. Gentleman asking me to postpone it until to-day and to put it down, and he would give me an answer.

On two occasions the hon. Member did not put it. He may have put it to someone else later.

Perhaps I can throw-light on it. My recollection is that the first time round the hon. Member was not here. The second time round he was.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has any control over the price of bricks; if so, will he state to what extent this control is effective; and if he is aware that, on recent contracts placed for bricks, contractors have demanded 71½ per cent extra in one case and 15s. per thousand extra in another case, and that this constant increase of prices is having the effect of stopping house-building?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. I view with high concern the increasing cost of building materials. As the hon. Member is no doubt aware, the matter is at present under consideration by a Committee appointed under the Profiteering Act.

Bredbury and Romiley Scheme

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the Bredbury and Romiley Urban District Council decided early in 1919 that there was a need for 450 houses in their area; that they purchased the land on a very reasonable basis, and actually borrowed the money at 51½2 per cent. locally; whether he is aware that, owing to the obstruction of his staff, no houses have yet been started; and whether he will take steps to dismiss the officials who are impeding the progress of house building, who in this instance have had plans in their possession since September, 1919, seeing that such methods discourage local enterprise and cause dissatisfaction to discharged soldiers and others who cannot secure houses?

The answer is a long one giving details of the proceedings, and perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The following is the answer referred to:

I am aware that considerable delay has taken place in connection with this housing scheme, but this delay has been due to the unduly high tenders, and I cannot accept the statement of the hon. Member that the fault lies with my Department. The District Council provisionally accepted in September last a tender of £88,993 for the building of 90 houses, subject to the usual provision for payment to the contractor of future rises in the costs of labour and materials. As this price was excessive, the Council were asked to modify their plans and obtain a, revised tender. A tender upon revised plans for £76,000 was obtained by the Council in February last, but when the contract came to be signed the contractor demanded 10 per cent. profit on fluctuations in labour and materials. It was impossible to accept this condition, and an alternative tender submitted by the contractor was so high that it could not be accepted. Further tenders have now been received for 230 houses, and the Council have asked the Housing Commissioners to confer with them on these tenders next week. I hope that the difficulties which have been experienced will then be overcome.

London County Council (Plans)

asked the Minister of Health whether he has refused to pass plans for housing estates for the London County Council because the Council propose to build rooms 8 feet 6 inches high and to lay house drains in concrete in accordance with their bye-laws under the London Building Acts; whether he proposes to override these bye-laws and to permit rooms to be built only 8 feet high and drains not to be laid in concrete; and whether he can make any statement on the matter so as not to delay housing progress in London?

I have not seen my way to pass plans for houses with rooms 8 feet 6 inches in height or, except when there are special circumstances to warrant that course, for encasing pipe sewers wholly in concrete. I am advised that the stipulations which I have made are ample for health and security. I may add that I have arranged to see a deputation from the County Council to discuss these matters. There should be no delay in proceeding with the housing schemes.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he is going to receive the deputation?

Ministry of Food

asked the Prime Minister when the Bill continuing the Ministry of Food will be introduced?

Shipping (Control)

asked the Prime Minister when control of shipping will come to an end?

Channel Tunnel

asked the Prime Minister when a decision will be reached with regard to the Channel Tunnel?

Shipping Conference, Genoa

asked the Prime Minister whether he can state the personnel of the English representation at the Shipping Conference at Genoa; and if he can also state the policy of this country on the subject?

I have been asked to answer this question. With my hon. Friend's permission, I will circulate a list of the personnel of the British delegation to the Genoa Conference in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The policy to be adopted at the Conference by the Government delegates will be fully considered by the Cabinet immediately.

The following is the list mentioned:

The following delegates and advisers will represent British interests at the forthcoming International Labour Conference at Genoa upon matters affecting seamen:

Government Delegates:

Sir C. A Montague Barlow, K.B.E., M.P., Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Labour.

Mr. C. Hipwood, C.B., Senior Assistant Secretary of the Board of Trade and Secretary of the Ministry of Shipping.

Advisers to Government Delegates:

Captain R. C. Warden, C.B.E.,

Mr. G. C. Blair,

Mr. C. Stuart Hall-Board of Trade and Ministry of Shipping.

Mr. J. A. Dale,

Mr. I. Haig Mitchell,

Mr. A. A. A. Wotzel, O.B.E.-Ministry of Labour.

Mr. W. G. Nott Bower,

Mr. David T. Jones, C.B.E.-Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries and Scottish Fishery Board.

Secretary to Government Delegates:

Mr. O. C. Allen, C.B.E., Ministry of Labour.

Employers' Delegate.

Sir Alfred Booth, Baronet, Cunard Steamship Company.

Advisers to Employers' Delegate.

Captain J. W. Harris, R.N.R., The Booth Steamship Company, Cunard Building, Pier Hill, Liverpool.

Mr. J. F. Cobey, The White Star Line, Oceanic Chambers, Canada Dock, Liverpool.

Mr. J. Setterfield, The Cunard Steamship Company, Cunard Building, Pier Head, Liverpool.

Mr. H. C. Somerville, Messrs. Geo. Gibson and Company, 64, Commercial Street, Leith.

Commander H. L. Walton, C.B.E.,R.N.R., Ellerman - Wilson's Lines, Ltd., Hull.

Mr. E. W. Harvey, Messrs. Furness, Withy & Co., Billiter Street, E.C.3.

Mr. E. Sainsbury, Messrs. Shaw, Savill & Albion Co., 34, Leadenhall Street, E.C.3.

Mr. Cuthbert Laws, The Shipping Federation, Limited, 24, St. Mary Axe, E.C.3.

Workpeople's Delegate.

Mr. J. Havelock Wilson, M.P., C.B.E., The Merchant Seamen's League.

Advisers to Workpeople's Delegate.

Mr. T. W. Moore, Imperial Merchant Service Guild.

Mr. T. Scott, Merchant Marine Service Association.

Mr. J. Henson, National Sailors' and Firemen's Union.

Mr. C. McVey, National Sailors' and Firemen's Union.

Mr. D. Bramah, Marine Engineers' Association.

Mr. A. W. Gorman, Amalgamated Society of Engineers.

Mr. M. Joyce, United Kingdom Pilots' Association.

Mr. J. Cotter, National Union of Ships' Stewards, Cooks, etc.

May we hope for a public declaration of the policy which these delegates are to follow?

Finance Bill

Excess Profits Duty

asked the Prime Minister when the Committee stage of the Finance Bill will be taken, and when the Government amendments in connection with Excess Profits Duty will be tabled?

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer understands that the Committee stage of the Finance Bill cannot be taken before Wednesday, the 16th. He proposes to hand in his Amendments to the Excess Profits Duty early next week.

How many days are to be allowed for the discussion of this Bill, and will there be full opportunity to debate the question of the Excess Profits Duty?

That is a question which should be addressed to the Leader of the House.

Super-Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the number of individuals who paid Super-tax in 1914 and the number who were liable for Super-tax last year?

Thenumber of individuals assessed to Super-tax for 1914–15 was 29,996 at 31st May, 1920. This number may be slightly reduced when a few appeals, which it has not yet been possible, to dispose of owing to the War and other causes, have been settled. The number of individuals assessed to Super-tax for 1919–20 was 43,576 at 31st May, 1920. Assessments for 1919–20 may be made up to 5th April, 1923, and the number of persons liable to Super-tax for that year is estimated at 59,000.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us, in view of these figures, how the War Wealth Tax is to be levied on 75,000 Super-tax payers?

British Companies Abroad (Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer the amount of revenue which is derived from British companies registered in this country which are carrying on business abroad?

I am having inquiry made, and will communicate with my hon. Friend in due course.

I will get it as rapidly as I can, but it requires some research, and the officials engaged in the matter are very busy.

Motor Spirit Duty

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what amount has been realised by the Petrol Tax since August, 1914; and how much of this has been expended upon the roads?

The approximate receipts from the Motor Spirit Duty (including the special War increase in the rate) from 1st August, 1914, to 31st March, 1920, were £11,277,000. Between the 1st August, 1914, and the suspension of the road grant under Section 49 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915,£1,039,000 was issued to the Road Fund. A further sum of £8,250,000 was provided for the Road Fund from Votes in 1919–20.

Was not a pledge given by the present Prime Minister that the whole of the result of this tax should be devoted to the improvement of the roads?

Not the war increase tax but the original tax, and more than that has been allocated to the roads.

War Wealth (Taxation)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is yet able to state the policy of the Government with regard to the Report of the Select Committee appointed to consider the practicability of a tax on war-time increases of wealth; and whether a day will be granted to this House to discuss the matter?

I hope to be in a position to make a statement on this subject on Monday afternoon.

asked the President of the Board of Trade the number of British companies registered in this country and the capital employed therein who carry on their business mainly abroad?

The returns which have to be filed by companies, registered in this country, in accordance with the provisions of the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908, do not disclose information as to where the business of the company is mainly carried on. In these circumstances I am unable to furnish the particulars desired by my hon. Friend.

Is there any information or evidence available as to British companies who are carrying on trade? Has the hon. Gentleman any returns of any kind?

We have no returns of the nature asked for by my hon. Friend whether the business is mainly carried on abroad or not. I will make further inquiries, and perhaps my hon. Friend will speak to me on the subject.

Panama Canal (Dues and Tolls)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a Bill has been introduced in the United States Senate giving preferential privilege to American vessels to pass through the Panama Canal free of tolls and dues, while tolls and dues will be imposed upon British and other foreign vessels; whether, if this Bill is passed into law, it will repeal the law at present in existence which places American and foreign vessels on terms of equality in regard to dues and toll charges; and whether His Majesty's Government proposes to communicate with the United States government with a view to the retention and maintenance of the existing law, which puts all vessels using the Panama Canal on terms of equality as regards dues and tolls?

His Majesty's Government have no knowledge of the Bill in question, but enquiries on the subject are being made of His Majesty's Ambassador at Washington.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the trend of legislation in the United States is detrimental and inimical to British interests, more particularly shipping, and will he look into this very important matter?

Peace Treaties (Ratification)

asked the Prime Minister if he can say when Peace will be proclaimed, having regard to the fact that hostilities have long ceased and Peace treaties have been arranged with the principle belligerents?

As I have repeatedly stated, it is not possible to name a date until the last of the Treaties has been ratified.

Pre-War Pensions

asked the Prime Minister whether he is in a position to state when the Bill will be introduced giving the necessary legislative authority to pay the increases to pre-war pensioners?

The Bill is now in course of preparation and will be introduced at an early date.

Will there be an opportunity for the discussion of this Bill in the usual way?

Middle East

asked the Prime Minister whether, while the Foreign Office is supporting the King of the Hedjaz with money, guns, and ammunition in warfare against the Emir of Nejde, the India Office is paying a monthly subsidy of £10,000 to Ibn Saoud, the Emir of Nejde; and whether it is possible for the Government so to control affairs in the Middle East as to avoid this clash of interests between different Departments of State?

There is no clash of interests between different Departments of State. The hon. Member's question would appear to be based on a misconception of the circumstances. The King of the Hedjaz is not at war with the Emir of Nejde, and no guns or ammunition are being supplied to him by the Foreign Office. The facts are, that the King of the Hedjaz and the Emir of Nejde are independent Arabian rulers, with whom His Majesty's Government entered into relations during the War, with a view to enlisting their co-operation against the Turks. The question of the subsidies which any of these rulers may receive in the future is under consideration.

Does the hon. Gentleman suggest there is no fighting going on between these two distinguished potentates?

I do not imagine there is, but I should like to have notice of the question.

The suggestion in my question is perfectly plain, namely, that there is fighting going on between two belligerents who are subsidised by different Departments of State.

My information is that there is not a state of war between these two rulers.

Government Factory, Gretna

asked the Prime Minister if he will state what steps have been taken, if any, regarding the extensive Government works at Gretna; if it is intended to carry them on permanently; how many persons are employed there at the present time; what has been the cost per month during the last year; and what profit or loss has accrued from it during the past 12 months?

I have been asked to reply to this question. The War Office assumed responsibility for this factory as from June 1st. The question of the future of this factory and others is being reviewed, and an announcement on the subject will be made as soon as a decision is reached. Meanwhile, 909 industrial and 168 administrative employés have been transferred with the factory to the War Office. The present cost of maintaining the factory is approximately £20,000 per month; but a portion of this expenditure is recoverable in respect of wagon repair work, rents from the townships, disposal receipts, etc. I am not in a position to give a profit and loss account during the past 12 months, as this at present is not available.

Trade and Commerce

Industrial Truce

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the increasing demand for British goods of every description from all parts of the world and the unprecedented opportunity for firmly establishing British trade for many decades, he will consider the advisability of proposing to all sections of the community engaged in commerce and industry the advantage of agreeing to an industrial truce to last for 12 months, during which no attempt will be made to advance or reduce wages or encroach on the privilege and rights of labour; where all sections of labour, either through their unions or through the agency of industrial councils, will agree to work eight or more hours per day, at the same rate for ordinary time and overtime as that now obtaining; a pledge will be given on behalf of the Government that the price of food and commodities shall not be increased while such truce is in operation; and also a pledge for the Government that at the expiration of such truce the parties to it will be at liberty to mutually renew it or revert to the conditions prevailing prior to its being entered into?

I need hardly say that industrial peace is an essential condition of success in our endeavour to re-establish British trade on a still firmer basis than before the War. I hope and believe that all sections of the industrial world recognise this. I do not think, however, that any artificial arrangement such as that proposed by my hon. Friend is practicable, or would be so effective in the long run as the natural development of public spirit and mutual confidence.

Egypt (Milner Beport)

asked the Prime Minister what are the reasons for the continued delay in the issue of the Milner Mission Report on Egypt; and if he can give any indication as to the date upon which this Report is likely to be issued?

A considerable amount of material still requires to be collated before Lord Milner's Report can be completed or laid, and I am not in a position, therefore, to give any indication of the date of its appearance.

Can the hon. Gentleman, in view of the grave importance of this question, give an undertaking that, at any rate, we shall have an opportunity of discussing it?

That is a question which obviously must be addressed to the Leader of the House.

Can we have an opportunity of discussing the future of Egypt, in view of what we read in the papers this morning?

Is it a fact that the Milner Mission is now dealing with the representatives of Zaglul Pasha in Paris?

That is another question of which I should like to have notice. I am conferring with the heads of the Government on that very matter.

Munitions

St. Omer Dump (Sale)

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the sale of St. Omer dump to Messrs. Leyland Brothers included the same schedule of vehicles as that upon which another firm was asked to bid; and, if not, whether the two bids are comparable in judging which was the best price offered.

The dump at St. Omer was sold with its contents as it stood on the date of the sale. Had Messrs. Lever not refused the offer of the Ministry, which was accepted three days later by Messrs. Leylands, they would have secured the same material as did the actual purchasers. The bids are in all respects comparable.

Is it not a fact that two entirely different indices of goods for sale were shown to the two competitors?

May I ask if the Prime Minister will consider whether, having regard to the fact that there is conclusive evidence that grave loss has been caused to the country, either through gross incompetence or else through what can only appear to be corruption, he will give a day for discussion of this question?

Is it not a fact that the intervention of Colonel Spurrier broke up a ring, so that the Government got more money than they otherwise would?

Disposal Board (Colonel Spurrier)

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether his attention has been called to the fact that the statement that Colonel Spurrier, the controller of the transport section of the Disposal Board, had no power to make sales above £5,000 is incorrect, and that he did in fact sell 666 Thornycroft cars at £400 each; whether Colonel Spurrier, as the representative of the Disposal Board, negotiated the sale of the dump at St. Omer to a firm in which his family has an interest; and, if so, what action he proposes to take.

I have been asked to answer this question. The sale of the 666 Thornycroft ears was negotiated by Colonel Spurrier, but the price was fixed and approved before completion of the contract by the member of the Disposal Board responsible for the sale of mechanical transport. With regard to the last two parts of the question, I can add nothing to the statements already made by the Leader of the House regarding this matter.

Is it not a fact that a reply was given in this House stating that Colonel Spurrier did in fact sell 666 Thornycroft lorries?

He was the agent of the Disposal Board in effecting the sale, but he had not, and has not, any power to conclude any sale of a greater value than £5,000. Any such matters must go to the member of the Disposal Board responsible, and by him be either concluded or referred to the Board of Control.

I beg to give notice that I will put down a similar question for next week, when, if I cannot get a satisfactory answer, I shall ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House.

India

Amritsar Disturbances (General Dyer)

asked the Lord Privy Seal if he will put the Vote for the Secretary of State for India's salary down early next week in order that the treatment of General Dyer may be discussed.

As was stated yesterday, in reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle East (Major Barnes) this Vote will be taken on Thursday next.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the question of the Amritsar case is quite sufficient to give one day's Debate to it, and that the whole of the other questions of the administration of India should be taken on the Vote? Would not either of these afford ample material for one day's discusion?

The Government, of course, are entirely in the hands of the House in that respect, if the House are of opinion that they would like to have another day.

May we take it that Thursday will be devoted to Amritsar? Does not my right hon. Friend realise that to deal with a question of such importance during a rambling Debate, not confined to any one subject, with one Member jumping up on one point and another on another, would completely destroy the effect of the Debate?

I am sure that that can be arranged with the Chair. I have never seen any difficulty where there is a real desire of the House for further time.

Government Securities (Coupons):

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there is any limit of time within which the coupons attached to Government Bonds and War Loan denoting the amount of interest payable periodically on these bonds must be presented for payment; and whether these coupons can be allowed to accumulate for the duration or term of the bonds and be presented for payment when the bonds themselves mature and are repaid, Income Tax for the respective periods at the respective rates being de ducted from the amount of the coupons?

There is no limit of time within which coupons attached to Government Bonds must be presented for payment, though delay in presentation might cause inconvenience. If coupons were held and presented for payment with the relative bond when it matured, Income Tax would be. deducted at the respective rates in force at the times at which the coupons severally fall due. Interest would, of course, not be payable on the amount of the coupons not cashed on the due dates.

University of London (New Site)

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any estimate of the cost of the Foundling Hospital site was put before him on his giving sanction to the purchase of the Duke of Bedford site for the London University; and what is the estimated cost of each site?

When the two sites were considered before the War, it appeared that the cost of the Foundling Hospital site would be rather greater than that of the Bedford site. As regards the present negotiations, I cannot add to the replies given by my right hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Education on Tuesday last.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that no suggestion has been made to the Foundling Hospital since the War, in reference to the purchase of this site? Is the Government really dealing with pre-war figures so far as the Foundling Hospital is concerned?

The Government took this site because they believed it to be eminently the best site.

Will the House have an opportunity of discussing this matter before the purchase of this site is finally completed?

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the last part of the question, as to what is the estimated cost of the site?

I have answered that by reference to what my right hon. Friend said on Tuesday.

Can the right hon. Gentleman not give any estimate of the cost of the site?

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether years ago the cost of the Bedford site was communicated to the University or not?

May I ask whether the cost of this site before the War was £367,000, while it is now £1,000,000?

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Education stated on Tuesday why he could not at the present stage give the price. I have nothing to add to what he said on that point.

Government Life Annuities

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the further tables will be published for Government life annuities varying the amount of the purchase money when the price of Consols is under £50?

New tables for this purpose will be published and put in force as from the 6th July.

Does the delay mean that those who purchase these annuities will have to pay more for them while the old table is in force?

Yes; while the old table is in force they will have to pay at the rate of the old table.

Police Pensions

asked the Home Secretary whether the pension payable to members of the police who withdrew their services, and payable at the conclusion of the War, will be made retrospective to the date when they left the force.

As explained in the answers given to questions by the hon. Member for Plaistow on the 21st January, 1916, the pension payable at the end of the War to men who were retained under the Police (Emergency Provisions) Act cannot be made to have restrospective effect in the case of those who have been dismissed for refusing duty.

Churches (City of London)

asked the First Commissioner of Works whether it is within the power of the Ancient Monuments Commission to schedule some of the more important of the churches in the City of London now threatened with destruction at the hands of the ecclesiastical authorities.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this House upwards of a century ago voted £1,000,000 for building churches in the City of London for the purpose of making London visibly a Christian city?

Post Office

Postage Rates (Monthly Publications)

asked the Postmaster-General whether in framing the new postage rates the Government has given consideration to the effect on the circulation of monthly publications by denying them the privilege of newspaper rates; whether the Canadian Government, in order to encourage education within the Empire, allows a special postal rate to British monthly publications, viz., 24 ounces for 11½d.; and whether the Government, in view of the high educational value of many monthly publications, will consider the advisable-ness of applying to approved monthly publications the same postage rates as rule in Canada?

By arrangement between the Governments of Canada, Newfoundland, and the United Kingdom both newspapers, magazines and trade journals can be registered for transmission at special rates to these Dominions. These special rates are defensible only by political considerations which do not apply to the Inland Post. The extension to the Inland Post of those rates in respect of all similar publications in this country could hardly be circumscribed in the way which the hon. Member suggests. Even if it could be so circumscribed, it would involve a heavy loss which would fall upon the taxpayer. Such publications will be entitled to benefit by the scale prescribed by the Inland Printed Paper Rate Regulations.

Unestablished Telephonist, Teignmouth

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that in the Post Office circular, dated 26th August, 1914, a concession to Post Office servants was announced whereby the men were entitled to receive an amount equivalent to their civil pay less military pay and allowances; that Clause 7 of the official announcement said that the Regulations would also apply to persons holding whole-time unestablished and temporary situations; if he will say whether an un established night telephone attendant is regarded as holding a whole-time unestablished situation; and, if so, whether he will state why the benefits under this concession have not been granted to Mr. T. R. A. Tothill, of the Teignmouth exchange?

Mr. Tothill did not hold a whole-time unestablished situation. He occupied the residential quarters at the Teignmouth Post Office as a licensee under an agreement to provide for the night and Sunday telephone work; and during his absence in the Army his wife continued to occupy the residence on the same terms. He was not entitled to any personal payment from the Post Office during his period of military service.

Municipal Boundaries (Extension)

asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that many large municipal corporations have prepared and are preparing schemes for extending their boundaries; that they are engaging counsel, engineers, and other experts in such preparation; that large numbers of smaller authorities who are to be attacked are engaged in a similar manner in preparing opposition schemes; that many public servants, who ought to be working on housing, road-making, and public health matters, have their time and energies diverted to these schemes; and if he will appoint a Committee of both Houses of Parliament to go into the whole question of existing and possible future boundaries of local governing areas and so put a stop to this wastefulness of public money and ability at the present time?

I have referred this question to the Consultative Council, and am awaiting their Report before considering it further.

Will the right hon. Gentleman do something to check the very great expenditure which is unnecessarily caused?

I am most anxious to check it. Very unnecessary expenditure is often incurred. That is the very question I have referred to these gentlemen to advise me upon.

May we expect something to be done at a very early date in this matter, as many thousands of pounds have been squandered?

I entirely agree with what the hon. Member says, but I cannot give any further answer at present. It might require legislation. I do not know.

Is the right hon. Gentleman including in that inquiry the possibility of extension at a distance instead of constant extension contiguously?

Ministry of Health (Established Messengers)

asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that the established messengers employed in his Department are not receiving the overtime rates of pay laid down by agreement with the Treasury consequent upon the issue of Award 101 by the Civil Service Arbitration Board; whether he is aware that these men have been paid 2d. per hour below the proper rate since April, 1918; and whether he will cause inquiries to be made with a view to this matter being rectified?

All the established messengers in the Ministry of Health receive the increases in overtime rates of pay laid down by Award 101 by the Civil Service Arbitration Board. Certain of the messengers receive lower rates than others as the basic rate of pay of messengers differs.

Railway Dispute, Kilmarnock

asked the Minister of Labour what is the present position regarding the dispute at the railway works, Kilmarnock; and what steps are being taken to arrive at a settlement?

I understand that the men concerned have been offered a provisional advance of 5s. per week, pending the conclusion of the national negotiations which, as my hon. Friend is aware, are proceeding between the railway companies and the craft unions on the question of district rates and working conditions for railway shopmen. I am informed that negotiations are proceeding locally on the offer of the 5s. advance made by the Glasgow and South-Western Railway.

Employment Exchanges

asked the Minister of abour whether a committee has been appointed to inquire into the cost and operation of the Employment Exchanges; and whether he can state the names of the members of the committee and the terms of reference?

As I stated in my reply to my hon. Friend on the 20th of May, I am appointing a Committee to inquire into the working and administration of the Employment Exchanges. I hope to be able to announce the personnel of the Committee and the terms of reference in a few days.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the employers' organisations, which have considerable knowledge of the matter, are represented on the Committee?

The hon. Member may be quite sure that all relevant facts will be taken into consideration.

Women, Training (Joan of Arc Centre)

asked the Minister of Labour whether he is aware that the present period of training in dressmaking and tailoring at the Joan of Arc centre is insufficient to enable the trainees to take up work outside; and whether he will consider the possibility of extending the course by three or six months in order that the cost will be justified by the results?

There are at present in the Joan of Arc training centre 44 women training in dressmaking and tailoring. Of these the majority will have completed on 30th June a course of 22 weeks, or four weeks less than the maximum period allowed for training under the Ministry of Labour's emergency scheme. A certain number who did not join the class until the middle of March will have completed by the same date a course of a little over three months. It is anticipated that the training will enable them to be placed in dressmaking and tailoring workshops on the completion of their training. As regards the last part of the question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on Tuesday last to the hon. and gallant Member for Kincardine and West Aberdeen, of which I am sending him a copy.

Royal Navy

Solent Fairway (Passenger Steamers)

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty why the Admiralty have again found it necessary to anchor apparently derelict war vessels in the fair-way of the passenger steamers running between Portsmouth and Ryde, Isle of Wight, as they are a risk to the passenger steamers in times of fog, being usually unlighted and having no available syren on board; and if he is aware that these passenger steamers carry through the summer months many hundreds of women and children?

Owing to the congestion in Portsmouth Harbour it has been found necessary to anchor two obsolete battleships temporarily in the area set apart for this purpose between Ports- mouth and the Isle of Wight. The area, which is clearly marked on Admiralty charts, is not in the fairway of steamers running between Portsmouth and Ryde. The obsolete ships exhibit anchor lights in accordance with the regulations for preventing collisions at sea.

Will the hon. Gentleman inquire from the captains of these steamers whether it is not directly in the fairway of the Isle of Wight passenger steamers at certain states of the tide?

Will the hon. Gentleman also make inquiries whether these vessels are lighted or not, and whether they remain out in fog at night without sounding any bell or giving any warning, with the result that there is great danger to shipping?

Leave

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether any decision has yet been come to concerning the amount of leave to be granted to ratings on foreign service, and to ratings serving in ships and establishments at home; and, if so, can he make any statement to the House?

The scale of leave to officers and men in ships and establishments at Home was revised as recently as December, 1919. I am sending a copy of the Fleet Order on the subject to my hon. Friend. As regards leave on return from Foreign Service, there is nothing to add to the reply given on 29th April.

Provision Allowance

asked the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will consider the possibility of increasing the present rates of compensation in lien of provisions to naval ratings not victualled, seeing that, although the cost of. living has increased 140 per cent, since 1914,the allowance referred to has only been increased by about 35 per cent., and that it is becoming very difficult for a strong healthy man to keep himself in food on the present allowance?

The question of an increase in the rate of provision allowance for naval ratings is at present under consideration.

Food Supplies

Beasts (Head Charges)

asked the Minister of Food if he has received representations from the Radstock Co-operative and Industrial Society to the effect that the head charges put on beasts and supposed to be covered by the extra return on hides is not operative, with the result that traders may be involved in a loss of from £4 to £5 on each bullock they buy; and what adjustment he proposes to make in the head charges?

The Food Controller has received several representations to the effect that the decline in the market value of hides has resulted in some loss to retailers on the price which they are required to pay for cattle. He cannot agree that the loss in question amounts to £4 or £5 per head, but he has already taken the necessary steps to adjust the per head charge to such a figure as will avoid loss to retailers.

Dried Fruits

asked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the large stocks of currants and other dried fruits stored in this country, he will consider the desirability of decontrolling this branch of trade?

The position as regards the stocks of dried fruits in this country, to which my right hon. Friend refers, has received careful consideration, and the Food Controller has decided that the present situation will permit of the removal of statutory control of dried fruits at an early date. It is therefore proposed to revoke, as from 2nd August, the Orders restricting importation by private traders, and fixing wholesale and retail maximum prices for dried fruits. I may add that the stocks of dried fruits held by the Ministry of Food are sufficient to prevent any undue rise in price not only during the remainder of the present season, but throughout next autumn when the new crops will be brought to this country.

Polish Legation

( by Private Notice ) asked the Home Secretary whether a mob assembled outside the Polish Legation on several nights last week, and will he take steps to protect the representative of a friendly nation by giving the necessary police protection?

I only received my hon. and gallant Friend's question on taking my seat. I have had no opportunity of getting a report from the police, but to the best of my knowledge and belief the mob has not assembled outside the Polish Legation, and the police arrangements have been quite adequate to keep the mob away from the Polish Legation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make further inquiry, because this mob has assembled in close vicinity to the Legation every night almost during the last week?

I do not know what "close vicinity" means, but I have been told that the police have kept them well away from the Polish Legation. I will make further inquiry.

Business of the House

Will the right hon. Gentleman indicate what will be the business next week, and further, will he say whether, if the discussion on the Government of Ireland Bill be concluded before the adjournment hour to-night, it is intended to take any other business, as was arranged last night?

There will be no other business to-night so far as I understand.

The business for next week will be as follows:

Monday, Second Beading Agriculture Bill;

Tuesday, Tithe Rent Charge Bill, Report; Firearms Bill, Second Reading; Dangerous Drugs Bill, Second Reading;

Women and Young Persons' Employment Bill, Second Reading; Gas Regulation Bill, Second Reading; and if that business is disposed of there may be some other Orders taken.

Wednesday, Government of Ireland Bill, Committee;

Thursday, Supply; Secretary of State for India Vote.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say if we are ever to have the Second Beading of the Irish Education. Bill, or is there only a pretence of passing this Bill? I would like to have it one way or the other.

If my right hon. and learned Friend will give me notice, I shall have inquiries made.

In the event of more than one day being required for the Agriculture Bill, will further time be found on Tuesday?

Of course, we would defer to the wishes of the House in that respect. We shall see how we get on on Monday.

If the whole of Tuesday be taken up by the discussion of the Report of the Hunter Commission, will another day be found to discuss the Government of India?

If the whole of Thursday be taken up with the debate on the Amritsar occurrence, and it is the desire of the House that there should be another day to discuss the Government of India, we shall do our best to provide it.

Ordered, That the Proceedings on the Government of Ireland Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply.—[ the prime Minister. ]

Sheffield Corporation Bill

Reported, with Amendments, from the Local Legislation Committee [Title amended]: Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Selection (Standing Committees)

Standing Committee C

Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C: Sir Thomas Royden; and had appointed in substitution: Major Nall.

Report to lie upon the Table.

Health Resorts and Watering Places Bill,

Reported, without Amendment, from Standing Committee C.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 110.]

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 110.]

Bill, not amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Friday, 11th June.

Orders of the Day

Government of Ireland Bill

Considered in Committee. [FIFTH DAY.]

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 9.—(Reserved Matters.)

"(1) The Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police and the management and control of those forces and the administration of the Acts relating thereto, including appointments, remuneration, and removal of magistrates there under, shall be reserved matters until such date, not being later than the expiration of three years after the appointed day, as His Majesty in Council may determine, and on the date so determined the public services in connection with the administration of those Acts and the management and control of those forces shall by virtue of this Act be transferred from the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Southern Ireland as respects Southern Ireland and to the Government of Northern Ireland as respects Northern Ireland, and shall then cease to be reserved services and become Irish services:

Provided that if the date of Irish union occurs before the said services are so transferred then, unless otherwise provided by the constituent Acts, those services shall as soon as may be after the date of Irish union be transferred from the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Ireland.

(2) For the purpose of the management and control of those forces whilst the services in connection therewith remain reserved services, there shall be constituted a body consisting of two persons appointed by a Secretary of State, the head of the appropriate Department of the Government of Southern Ireland or some person appointed by him, the head of the appropriate Department of the Government of Northern Ireland or some person appointed by him, and a person appointed by His Majesty, and that body shall have such powers in relation to the maintenance of law and order in Ireland as His Majesty in Council may by Order determine.

(3) The following matters, namely—

(a) the postal service;

(b) the Post Office Savings Bank and Trustee Savings Banks;

(c) designs for stamps, whether for postal or revenue purposes;

(d) the Public Record Office of Ireland;

shall be reserved matters until the date of Irish union, and on that date the public services in connection with the administration of those matters, except so far as they are matters with respect to which the Parliament of Ireland have not power to make laws, shall, by virtue of this Act, be trans- ferred from the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Ireland, and shall then cease to be reserved services and become Irish services:

Provided that if before the date of Irish union the Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland by identical Acts make provision for the transfer of any of the said services to the Council of Ireland or otherwise for the exercise of the powers relating thereto by the Parliaments and Governments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland jointly, such services shall be transferred in accordance with those Acts, and shall on such transfer cease to be reserved services.

(4) The general subject-matter of the Acts relating to land purchase in Ireland shall be a reserved matter unless and until otherwise provided by any Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom relating to land purchase in Ireland, passed in the present or any future session of that Parliament:

Provided that this reservation shall not include—

(a) the powers and duties of the Congested Districts Board for Ireland, other than the power of that Board to require advances to be made to them under Section seventy-two of the Irish Land Act, 1903; and

(b) the powers and duties of the Irish Land Commission with respect to the collection and recovery of purchase annuities.

(5) On any- transfer under or by virtue of this Act of any reserved matter, the general provisions of this Act (so far as applicable) and the provisions of this Act as to existing Irish officers and existing pensions shall apply with respect to the transfer, with the substitution of the date of the transfer for the appointed day or the date of the passing of this Act."

Debate resumed on Amendment—[ 2nd June ]-in Sub-section (1), to leave out the word "later" ["not being later than"], and to insert instead thereof the word "earlier."—[ Mr. Stewart. ]

Question again proposed, "That the word 'later' stand part of the Clause."

I would not have intervened in this Debate had it not been for the speech made last night by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn). I think that my right hon. Friend the Member for Dun-cairn (Sir E. Carson) did not speak too strongly when he said that there was no more important point in the whole Bill than the point raised by this Amendment. Many hon. Members are taking part in the consideration of this Bill with grave misgivings, misgivings of which we cannot get rid, do what we will. We are anxious to give what help we can to the Government to deal with a very difficult situation, but it is impossible for us to forget that we are every day asked to agree to proposals which are contrary to all the beliefs which we have hitherto professed most strongly and which we are unwilling to give up. And of all those points, that which strikes us and moves our consciences more than any other is this—whether we are discarding our obligations to the Royal Irish Constabulary? We know what they have done. We know what they have sacrificed, and what trials they are now going through, and we are bound to deal with this particular class and not to forget all we owe to them.

4.0 P.M.

I listened with the pleasure with which I always listen to the speech of my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Long). He adopted that tone of wise statesmanship, conciliation, strong feeling and readiness to consider all aspects of the question which he has taught us to expect from him. We saw in the speech that he made evidence of that ripe political experience which is his and of the grave weight of responsibility with which he is now burdened. My right hon. Friend took up a certain aspect of the question and from his point of view he evoked my sympathy very strongly. He told us that after careful consideration the Government had adopted the course which has been recommended from a feeling of what was best for the Irish Constabulary. I quite see that point of view, but I am not sure that it would not lead my right hon. Friend rather further than he is prepared to go. Would it not lead him to say that it might be best here and now to cast the Constabulary free from their obligations? If he tells us that the Constabulary will be under a cloud of misunderstanding and will be constantly liable for having any of their acts taken in the wrong sense, and if that be the only object that my right hon. Friend has in view, would it not be well once and for all to cast the Constabulary free, making, of course, that ample recompense for the loss that will fall upon them which my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Duncairn insisted was only their due? Surely there is another aspect to be considered. We have not only to consider the position of the Con- stabulary to-day; we are bound to consider also what will be the course of Government during the next few years. It is idle to suppose, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend does not suppose, that the mere passing of this Bill will establish peace and put an end to murder and disturbance all over Ireland. It will be absolutely necessary to have a strong force for months, and it may be for years, to maintain any semblance or to attempt to arrive at any semblance of civilised government in Ireland. If the unbroken and unchecked career of cowardly murder and assassination is to be brought to an end, surely we must have under the Government which is now responsible for peace in Ireland—devolve new duties as you like, but you can never devolve that primary responsibility for peace and good government in Ireland which is inherent in this House and in this House alone—an instrument in our hands to carry it out. Whatever may be the fate of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and, of course, we all know that you ought to protect it, surely it is necessary that you should at least for a certain large number of years have in your hands a power prepared to carry out your behest.

My right hon. and learned Friend referred not only to the duty of the police in maintaining order, but to a great many administrative acts which they perform, such as the gathering in of taxes, and so on, which will still rest upon the supreme Government. You must have means of carrying that duty out, and the only method is by keeping for such time as in your wisdom and with a due sense of responsibility you find is necessary this independent Irish Constabulary under your own control. Is it possible that you can keep up this constabulary for a certain number of months, or even for a limited number of years, and expect them to carry out your orders and to meet, as they are meeting now, threats of assassination if you tell them that at a period which cannot be further off than three years, and which no experience which we may hereafter gather will enable us to extend, they must come under the power of those who are now their enemies? The Committee appreciate the difficulty of the Government, and they sympathise with the feeling of the Government in trying to safeguard the Irish Constabulary. I believe that they would be ready to meet halfway any moderate proposal that the Government might put forward, but it is radically wrong, whatever the experience hereafter may be, whatever may be the difficulties of the new institution that you are setting up, to take away by this Act the power from the Parliament at Westminster and to say that we cannot extend the constabulary for a day beyond three years.

I said that I would not have risen had it not been for the speech delivered by the hon. and gallant Member for Leith. No one admires more the courage, the bravery, and the pluck of my hon. and gallant Friend. I admire also the courage that he has in standing up for what he thinks at the moment is an unpopular cause; but it is no more a necessary proof of wisdom and rectitude to find yourself in a considerable minority than is swash-buckling a necessary ingredient of effective argument. I do think that the hon. and gallant Member in the calm of this afternoon may have reason to repent the speech that he made last night. Does he realise the effect that his speech may have upon those who are carrying on the practice of assassination when he points to these people and says, "You who are the victims are the agents of political proscription "? Does he recognise the responsibility which rests upon him as an honourable and respected Member of this House, and that his words are likely to be the death signal of many of the Irish Constabulary? They give a justification, which will be seized only too readily, to those who contrive all sorts of murderous and cowardly attacks upon the police. I do beseech my right hon. Friend to see if he cannot give some concession on a point which is very strongly felt by many, but at all events let us carry on the Debate in that spirit which characterised it until my hon. and gallant Friend intervened. Let us carry it on, recognising the gravity of the situation, and the difficulty which many of us, as my right hon. Friend knows, have in following his lead, but at the same time ready to do all that we can to help the Government in a very difficult situation.

I intervene now because I am anxious at once to tell the Committee what are the views at which His Majesty's Government have arrived after listening very carefully to the Debate of last night, which has been very aptly followed by the speech of my right hon. Friend who has just spoken. All the speeches— gratefully acknowledge the fact—have recognised that the Government, in making these proposals to the House and to the country, have been actuated by the same desire as all those hon. and right hon. Members who have spoken in the Debate. We recognise in the fullest and most complete manner the splendid character of the service of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and we have endeavoured in this Bill to make such provision as would secure for them full justice so far as that be possible. Yesterday I ventured to say that in the opinion of the Government it is more than possible that the police are regarded as the outpost of the British Empire, or the British garrison, as it is called in Ireland. They are exposed to these villainous and cowardly attacks at the hands of these assassins who shoot when they know that they are in safety and who run away like hares as soon as they see any considerable force coming. They are exposed to this kind of brutal attack mainly because they are regarded as the representatives of the Government here. It seems to us, if this local government be adopted in Ireland, and supposing that the two Governments of the North and South of Ireland treat their task seriously and approach it in a reasonable and constitutional spirit, inevitable that they must have some control over the police, or they cannot be held responsible for law and order or for human life.

Let me just interpolate this remark I am only repeating the words of the Prime Minister, in a speech which he made in this House in connection with this Bill. If the forecasts made by many speakers in this Debate—I do not wonder that they are made, because past history points in that direction and everything that is going on to-day emphasises the reasons which lead hon. Members to make these forecasts—prove true, and if the only use made of this Bill be to endeavour to establish a Republic or a Government which is unworthy of the name of Government, and which uses its power merely for tyranny, then this Bill will be suspended and will not come into operation, and this Parliament will be compelled, whether it likes it or not, to take such action as may be necessary in order to restore order in Ireland. We must, in the extraordinary position in which we find ourselves, assume that this Bill, if it be reasonably framed, will be reasonably and fairly used. It would be out of order to use now the arguments which led the Government to make these proposals, but they are present to the minds of everybody, and I will only say that we are profoundly anxious, while recognising the need of equipping these Governments with the power of maintaining order, to do justice to and to safeguard in every possible way the Royal Irish Constabulary. I agree with what my right hon, and learned Friend (Sir E. Carson) said last night, and with what, I think, nearly every speaker, commencing with my hon. Friend (Mr. Stewart), in whose name the Amendment stands, said, that the words "not later" do create what may possibly be a difficult or even an impossible situation. At the same time we have already intimated that it is our intention to introduce an Amendment which would suspend the Bill if conditions in Ireland be not very different from anything that they are at present, and we thought that that would govern this Clause. My right hon. and learned Friend, however, pointed out last night that the conditions might be satisfactory, that the Bill in those conditions might come into operation, and that then there might arise a conditon of things which would make everybody, irrespective of party of any kind, feel that the transference of the police would be a very dangerous thing. We should then have to come back to this House and get the Act amended. That is the very thing we want to avoid. What we have set out to do in this Bill is to give the Irish people the machinery that will enable them to work out their own salvation and to decide for themselves what shall be their ultimate constitution- two Parliaments or one, and all that follows from those alternatives. I would suggest that we do not want to tie down the future in regard to the police in either way. I think the best course would be to accept the Amendment. Then, if hon. Members will be good enough to look to the proviso to Sub-section (1) of the Clause, they will find that it runs as follows:

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for the sympathetic way in which he' has treated this Amendment. Indeed, it is what would be expected of him by everyone who knows him, his relations with Ireland, and his knowledge of Ireland, in contrast with the ignorance often displayed by those who are so ready to put the police in difficult circumstances. I think the Amendment he has suggested is a great improvement in the Bill. It leaves the matter, in the first place, elastic as regards the handing over of this force. The right hon. Gentleman suggests that an earlier transfer might take place if there were identical Acts passed by the two Parliaments. If such a thing happened it would necessarily mean that there was a great change in the whole opinion of Ireland. There is nobody in the House who would welcome more than I that the country should be in such a condition that the two Parliaments could pass identical Acts. Notwithstanding all this, I still feel that the police will be in a most difficult position when this Bill passes. The knowledge that even with these restrictions they are at a future date to be transferred to the Irish Parliament is a matter which may have a great effect upon the conduct and courage and confidence of the police. I will make a suggestion for consideration. It is that, instead of transferring the constabulary, who have become objects of hostility in Ireland—instead of transferring them to the Irish Parliament at any time, you should, when the time came for appointing a day, wind up the force. It would be far better. Their traditions, great as they are, will remain as Imperial traditions, but they are traditions that will never make them popular in Ireland. I had drafted an Amendment, though I have not handed it in. I should like to see, in addition to what my right hon. Friend has said, the enactment of some such provision as would be contained in these words: "The said services shall be wound up, and all the members thereof shall retire on the terms hereinafter mentioned in Clause 57." We could take care in Clause 57 that they retired with the fullest possible compensation. I would wind up the force compulsorily. With the knowledge of that before them, each of the Parliaments would set to work to frame a police scheme for themselves. It would be open to them to employ any of the force disbanded if they wished to join, but the men would come to them as part of the new system of police set up by the two Parliaments. They could go to the North if they liked, or to the South if they preferred. I doubt very much if the anticipation of being transferred, as a force, to the Irish Parliament will ever create confidence in the police in Ireland, nor do I think it will be a popular thing in these new assemblies to take them over, certainly not in the South and West. After all, my proposal would not create any great dislocation. At present the constabulary are a centralised force, with headquarters in Dublin. If you hand them over on the appointed day, you will have to decentralise them, or at least you will have to split them up, with one head quarters at Belfast and another at Dublin. I think my suggestion would be most popular with the police, and I imagine also most popular with the Parliaments and with the people whom the Parliaments concern.

The suggestion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman affords some gleam of hope for the new state of affairs which might arise in happier days in Ireland. As far as my opinion is worth anything at all, I should think he is on perfectly firm ground when he says that the traditions of the Irish Constabulary, great as they are—I desire to pay my tribute to the bravery of these men, who are acting under circumstances which are in no way distinguished, very often, from the conditions of the battlefield, except that very often they are more arduous and trying—are, and have been, linked up with a system which, whatever views we have with regard to Ireland, is to be put on one side in the hope of a day of better things. The Force is centralised in the fullest sense of the term. I am sure the right hon. and learned Gentleman is right when he suggests that it would be an act of statesmanship to face the future in an entirely new way, and particularly with regard to the Royal Irish Constabulary. After all, it would be a happy state of things for Ireland if the Constabulary there were brought into line with the English conception that the policeman is a citizen set apart, though a civilian in the fullest sense of the term, for the performance of duties which are the duties of all citizens. The distinction between the two forces is particularly marked in the weapons of defence. The British constable has his truncheon, which is hidden behind in his tunic out of sight, so that there should be nothing about him to suggest armed force. In Ireland the constabulary are very little distinguishable from highly-trained soldiers. I am sure the suggestion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman is worth consideration, and I heartily support it.

We are grateful to the First Lord of the Admiralty for the consideration which he has given to this Amendment. It certainly seems to me that the dominant argument which weighs with the Government and with my right hon. and learned Friend the. Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) is that the police personally should be safeguarded against anything in the nature of reprisals or punishment for what may have been done in the course of their official duties. That, I think, would be best fulfilled by adopting the suggestion to wind up the force, leaving it to the new Assemblies to establish their own police forces. That would at least put the police in a position of independence and would be in the interests of the maintenance of law and order. I hope the Government will carefully consider that very interesting and important suggestion. There are strategic questions in connection with this problem. What is to happen in case of war in respect of the defence of these islands? We are told very little, and rightly so, about what was the organisation during the War to meet such dangers as supplying submarines with petrol, espionage and the like. I should like my right hon. Friend the First Lord to tell us now or on a subsequent occasion how-far the Government have considered what may be called the military importance or martial importance of the police. I should think myself that in time of war the police, both here and in Ireland, played a very considerable part in our defence in preventing treasonable acts. It would be exceedingly difficult to carry out the defence of these islands if the police force in Ireland were not animated by a sincere wish to help against the enemies of the country and to prevent and punish treason. Unless the police were acting loyally, you could not really hold the western coast of Ireland securely. We had the example of the Mediterranean and the use that was made of the indentations in the coast there in the submarine warfare. It was a sort of surreptitious use, winked at by the inhabitants, although not openly countenanced by them. That is the kind of danger you may have to face unless you can trust the police. I hope the Government will be able to tell us what their views on that point are and how far they think provision has been made to secure the use of an efficient police force against military treason in time of war. My right hon. Friend the First Lord referred again to the proposed Clause giving power to suspend the Bill, which the Government have in preparation and are about to put down. I am sure he will agree with me that it is not at all convenient that the Committee should be allowed to go on without knowing what that Clause is. I hope he will put it down at the earliest possible date.

No one will doubt that the First Lord was perfectly sincere in the deep emotion he displayed when he spoke on the subject of the present position of the Royal Irish Constabulary. Some of us are anxious to have some further assurances on the subject. I do not think the Committee will disagree with me when I say that the primary duty which faces us to-day is to safeguard the interests of these loyal men, and that that is far more important than any question, either of the position of the loyalists in the North or in the South. The people whom we have got most to consider in this Amendment are the police themselves. I am appalled at the indifference which this House shows towards the position of the police there, and at the apathy of the whole country, and I have never seen anything like it. In considering this Amendment, we are considering the whole position, present and future, of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and nothing could be more important. There are two things we have got to consider. How best can the Government and the Executive give moral and physical support to the police force at present, and when this Bill comes into operation. As to moral support, the best way would be to adopt the plan suggested by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson), and make it clear that when the Bill comes into operation, the force will be dissolved, and, therefore, they can perform their duties without any regard to what effect their actions may have on the future, so that they can make life tolerable for the average citizen.

I met recently a very well-known resident magistrate, who has handed in his resignation, and the picture which he drew of the conditions under which the police have to live at present in the South of Ireland, is really appalling. The point he makes, and it is made by many other officials, is that the police have received from the Executive extraordinarily little moral support during the last year, or during the last six months, and there is the feeling that behind the words of the Government in this House and in the country, there is no real determination to use the forces which they have got at their disposal. My right hon. and learned Friend mentioned a thing last night which has been known to many of us, and especially to those who know something of the South of Ireland, and that is that in many cases where there have been attacks on the police by miscreants who call themselves Sinn Feiners the police have been really afraid to return their fire in an effective manner on the best military principles, because of the consequences which might happen to their wives and children. It must be apparent that that is so because the Irish Constabulary are a fine well-drilled body of men, and it would be impossible for the casualties to be so small if the police used the best military tactics at their disposal. Can any man blame them? As my right hon. and learned Friend said, they know perfectly well if they do kill a Sinn Feiner, and if the man who does so can be identified, not only his own life, but the lives of his wife and children, would be in the greatest jeopardy. That is a case where the Government might give moral support. Surely steps could be taken to protect the wives and children, or to remove them. Then there is the physical side. We were told in a speech made by a Noble Lord in another place that every assistance was going to be given by the military to the police. I. ask the Committee to consider what must be the feelings of policemen stationed in isolated posts in the south or west when they read of the disgraceful incident which occurred four days ago, when a guard of His Majesty's Army were overpowered without firing a shot and lost their rifles. When policemen somewhere in Cork or Kerry are told that they are to have the support of the British Army, how can they believe it under those circumstances? Those of us who have supported the Government, and in many instances voted against our own friends on this Bill, are entitled to ask the Government to give us a real undertaking of this Amendment that the position of the Constabulary is going to be made more tolerable in the future than it has been in the past. I have an uneasy suspicion that they are trying to carry out one or two utterly impossible things. They are either trying to conciliate the rebels by letting it be known that they do not wish the police or soldiers to effectively return the—

I am very anxious not to do so, but may I respectfully call your attention to the fact that last night we had a speech from the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Leith Burghs (Captain Benn), in which he raised this question, and I think the First Lord of the Admiralty also went very deeply into the whole question of police administration in Ireland.

I quite agree, and I allowed the Noble Lord to follow on the same lines, but his remarks must be made relevant to the Amendment and not deal with the question of present administration.

I bow to your ruling, and I will endeavour to keep within the limits of the Amendment. I say it is our primary duty as a Committee, before this Amendment is put to the vote, to get from the Government a clear undertaking that they are going to make the position of the Constabulary more tolerable. There is an uneasy suspicion in one's mind that for reasons connected with political questions in this country the full force of the armed forces of the Crown is not going to be put behind the police in order to enable them to carry out their duties. There is a great deal of opinion in this House which has supported the Government on this Bill, but which agrees to a great extent with what has been said from other quarters as to the wholesale arrests that have taken place in Ireland, but the same people who hold those views hold as strongly as I do that, in the simple issue of protecting the police and giving them every opportunity to kill—because that is what it amounts to—the people who try to kill them, the Government have not been sufficiently strong, and I hope we shall have a definite statement from the Government that they are prepared to risk whatever unpopularity they may get in this country and what ever threats may come from any quarter in seeing that the police have adequate support from the soldiers, and that when attacks are made on police barracks and on guards the soldiers and police will fire back with the intention to kill—

That is a matter for Committee of Supply. We are dealing now only with legislation, in so far as by this Bill we can protect the position of the Constabulary.

That, of course, is so, but at the same time we are discussing under this Bill what the position of the police will be in the future, and I think I am entitled to argue that as the situation stands at present the position of the police is intolerable. Therefore, before I am asked to give my vote, I think I am entitled to know what steps are going to be taken to make the position of the police tolerable, in order that I may be able to decide whether they will be worse off or better when they come under the Southern Irish Parliament. Nothing could be worse than their present position, and I am not sure they would not be better off under the Southern Irish Parliament than now, if they are not given adequate support immediately. I hope the Government will consider the proposal that has been made by my right hon. and learned Friend in regard to the distribution of the Force. If his proposal was adopted a great load would be taken off the mind of a great number of police in isolated districts in the South of Ireland, and they would feel they could do their duty in the present without any fear of the consequences in the future, when they come under the Southern Irish Parliament.

After the speech of the First Lord of the Admiralty, I think it is unnecessary to take the discussion much further. He said in his usual sympathetic manner yesterday with regard to this question: as before, and shall be liable to perform the same duties and while so serving shall not receive less salaries, and so forth. That was cold comfort for the Royal Irish Constabulary, that they were to serve under the same old conditions and terms, with the same pensions, as formerly, and that they were to pass through all these things in the next three years, their numbers being gradually reduced, all under the same conditions. I am glad that at last the right hon. Gentleman and the Government have yielded to give them better terms, and if they wish voluntarily to retire I hope the Government will give them the opportunity of retiring on their full pension.

The difficulty that I see with regard to carrying out this Clause of the Bill is as to how the right hon. Gentleman intends the Northern and Southern Parliaments to take upon themselves the responsibilities of the police already existing, and I think it is only by carrying out the suggestion of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Duncairn Division (Sir E. Carson) that that difficulty will be overcome. The Royal Irish Constabulary in Ireland is a unit and can be ordered about from one part of Ireland to another by the Executive, and this Clause simply hands them over to the two Parliaments, but does not say how they are going to divide up this unit, and it does not say, for instance, that the men residing in Ulster will be handed over to the Six Counties Parliament, and that those who reside in the South will be handed over to the Southern Parliament. Realising that the force is a unit in itself, I think something more is required in the Bill on this question, and I think the suggestion of my right hon. and learned Friend is the best one, namely, that of dissolving the force entirely. Something like that was contained in the Bill of 1893. The original idea in that Bill with regard to the police was the formation of county and borough forces by the Irish Parliament, maintaining for six years the Royal Irish Constabulary under the control of the Lord Lieutenant, the immediate cessation of recruiting, the gradual withdrawal of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and, when local forces were established, an option being given to the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary to join such local forces. Existing rights as to pensions and so on were to be maintained. Therefore the suggestion which has been thrown out by the right hon. and learned Gentleman is one which I hope the Government will take into their serious consideration. I would also like to ask the Government to do what they can to assist in the amelioration of the present condition of the force in Ireland, which is absolutely appalling, and only those who live there can realise anything of what they have to go through. We wonder sometimes in Ireland if there is any Government. The state of affairs there is lamentable, and the police force are doing their best under most tragic conditions. Perhaps the learned Attorney-General will tell me whether it is a fact that the police authorities cannot have the assistance of the military authorities without giving them 24 hours' notice?

That is a matter of administration. We must confine ourselves to the terms of the Bill and the Amendment.

5.0 P.M.

I bow to your ruling, and, in conclusion, I wish to thank the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty for giving us this solatium, and trust that such words will be introduced into the Bill as will enable the police force to carry on its duties with the knowledge that it has behind it the Government of this country.

Something has been stated by the Noble Earl opposite as to the horrible suspicion that the police are not permitted to defend themselves as they should when attacks are made upon them to kill them. There is a suspicion abroad that, by order of the Government, or the moral force of the Government, they are not permitted to shoot to kill if necessary in their own defence. If there is anything in that suspicion it is a perfect scandal.

I understand that the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill has practically accepted the Amendment, and I wish to thank him for the courteous and sympathetic way in which he has treated the whole of this matter. I must be guided, of course, by my leader, the right hon. Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson), and I therefore suppose it will not be necessary for me to move the con- sequential Amendment standing in my name and the names of others. I take this opportunity to rejoice at the difference in the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman leading the Liberal party today as regards the Royal Irish Constabulary and that of the right hon. Gentleman who was in charge of the Liberal party last night. I think he has been faithfully dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Member for the Scottish Universities (Sir H. Craik) But I should like to add my word of protest against the unfair attack he made on those sorely-tried men. I read the hon. Gentleman's speech through this morning, and he did not seem to have come to a conclusion as to whether he was in favour of this Amendment or not. Surely it stands to common sense that prevention is better than cure, and, knowing perfectly well that they cannot get any evidence to convict the criminals, of course the police are quite correct in arresting people. If the hon. Gentleman or any other man knew that he was marked down to be killed the next day I do not think he would use the same kind of remarks.

I think, perhaps, it would be the wisest thing to do to disband the whole force, with its old traditions, as soon as you set up the new Parliaments, and give the men the opportunity and right to re-enlist under the new Parliaments if they wish to do so. There is a precedent for that in our history, because after William the Third succeeded King James he, on a given day, offered all the Army—then a small body—the chance of transferring their allegiance, and I have myself seen in the Record Book in the British Museum that the regiments were paraded early in the morning and were told that those who wished to do so could take the oath of allegiance to King William. The same course might be followed in this case. If you wish to get rid of your responsibility of interfering with police matters when the new Parliaments are constituted, then you may give your men the same right to come forward, and either retire or swear allegiance, as they think fit.

My hon. Friend has quite rightly interpreted the decision of the Government, which is to accept his Amendment to substitute the word "earlier" for the word "later," and to give an undertaking to bring up on Re- port, on the proviso to Sub-section (2), Amendments which will secure the objects I described to the Committee a little earlier. The Committee, I hope, will allow me to bring them up on Report, because there is more than one Amendment required, and it is a very bad practice, as all the Committee, I am sure, realise, to put in Amendments on the spur of the moment, which often mean more work on Report, whereas, I am sure, the Committee will take it from me, on behalf of the Government, that the Amendments to which I have referred shall be introduced. May I say a word about the very striking suggestion made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson)? My hon. Friend who spoke just now very rightly said that it was contemplated in the Bill of 1893. Under that Measure the police force was a reserved force, but it was reserved with the intention of bringing it to an end when the transfer took place. It is quite obvious that if we adopt my right hon. Friend's suggestion, it will require a good deal of working out, because we must provide for the intervening period, and probably something over that, and of course there is the financial side. I am quite sure my right hon. Friend and the Committee will not expect me to say more to-day than that we are very much impressed. It certainly has many attractions, and I will discuss it with my colleagues, and see what announcement can be made. I do not know how far I shall be in order in dealing with the rather numerous and extensive criticisms which have been addressed to the Government with regard to their administration. I can only speak of that as a Member of His Majesty's Government. My hon and gallant Friend who spoke just now said that, in his belief, the soldiers or the police in Ireland are not allowed to shoot.

It does not matter. All I can say is that my hon. and gallant Friend can have followed the accounts of what has been happening in Ireland recently with very little care, because there is not a shadow of foundation for that statement, and I do not hesitate to say here—and to say it deliberately—that I am glad to say the police have not only shot, but shot with extremely good effect, and I only hope they will do it again. As regards the support given to the police by the other forces of the Crown, if the Committee will stop for a moment to consider they will realise the extraordinary difficulty of the situation. These police barracks, in some cases, are isolated stations a long way from anywhere, and it is very difficult to give them ample protection, but, in the majority of cases, they are situated in a row of houses and it is difficult to give adequate support. I have seen suggestions in the papers that bodies of six or eight soldiers should be given for the protection of these barracks. That would be a most fatal thing to do. What is the good of giving six or eight soldiers to aid two or three policemen who may be attacked by 200 or 300 people? We are contributing military support, and Marines too, but we are not doing it in small scattered numbers, but in large numbers, and for that reason it is necessary that there should be concentration. I do assure the Committee—and I speak with knowledge, because I have been in constant communication with the Irish Government both by conversation and letter—that the difficulties are much greater than they realise, and that the Government are doing their utmost. I do not want to introduce any warmth, but I do repudiate with some warmth and some indignation the suggestion of my Noble Friend (Earl Winterton) that the Government are withholding their hand in giving support to the police, for fear of unpopularity or anything of that kind. It does not enter into our mind. We have used the forces at our disposal to the best of our ability.

I would tell my right hon. Friend that it is a matter of remark in Ireland that the soldiers are notoriously ineffective in giving assistance to the police.

I was not referring to that. I was referring to my Noble Friend's statement that we failed to give support because we were afraid of being unpopular. My Noble Friend has no right to make that statement. There is not a shadow of foundation for it.

If the Government is so ineffective in giving help, then, with the views that you hold, you ought not to remain in it.

Does my Noble Friend think the soldiers and sailors are afraid of unpopularity, and that they allow these things to intervene for a moment; or does he think that I interfere with the advice given by my legal advisers in a matter of this kind? It is the very last thing I should do. I can assure the Committee that the Government have done, and are doing, everything in their power, and are determined that all the support they can give shall be given to the police in the execution of their duty. This has nothing to do with the Amendment, and I only refer to it because it has been introduced by others. I only say that, with regard to the Amendment of my hon. Friend, and the suggestion of my right hon. Friend, we will meet the wishes of the Committee.

I only desire to say that I am glad my right hon. Friend has promised seriously to consider the proposal I have ventured to adumbrate today as to the winding-up of the force, and let the new Parliaments start their own police. I quite agree with him that that would require a regular scheme, which could not possibly be put in now as an Amendment, even if the Government came to the conclusion that that was right. But may I also remind him that, as a part of the scheme, which would have a great deal of effect upon the intervening period and the conduct of the police, and what is especially due to the police, there is the financial arrangement that has to be made in connection with such a scheme? I had intended to move an Amendment I have drafted on this subject, but, having regard to the statement of my right hon. Friend, I do not propose to do so.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (2).

I formally move this Amendment, which I have not handed in, because I want to ask some questions about it. This is the Sub-section which sets up the authority, as I understand it, which is to control the resident magistrates, and the constabulary and Metropolitan Police until these bodies are handed over to the two Parliaments. This body is to consist—

reserved service, ought to remain exactly as they are at present, with the same powers and the same authority, under the Inspector-General who is answerable to the Lord-Lieutenant as the representative of His Majesty. I would suggest that this Sub-section is quite unnecessary. If ultimately, after you set this Bill going, and set up these Parliaments, either one or the other is to be given an opportunity to thwart the whole working of the Constabulary, it will be a great pity. I absolutely object to any body of the sort suggested having the power to regulate, or to be the authority as regards the maintenance of law and order in Ireland. That is far too wide a discretion. While I do not want, in any case, to move any Amendment to —this Bill which is not of essential importance, I moved this omission with a view of getting an explanation. If the explanation is satisfactory, and if I have not righty understood the Sub-section, I shall ask permission to withdraw my Amendment.

There is a necessity for this provision, as the Committee, I think, will apprehend, for the temporary period during which the police are reserved. The first question asked by my right hon. and learned Friend is: Supposing the Southern Parliament refuses to appoint a representative, what will happen? In that case, I take it, the consequences will be simple and direct. The official appointed by the Crown, those appointed by the Secretary of State, and the one appointed by the Northern Parliament will have full power.

Would the right hon. Gentleman explain exactly who are the two persons appointed by the Secretary of State and who the one appointed by His Majesty, and what is the necessity for this sort of double appointment?

The idea is that the Secretary of State should appoint two officials and that there should be somebody appointed by the Crown on the advice of the Government here, or—as suggested by my right hon. and learned Friend—it would be on the advice of the Prime Minister. During the temporary period it seemed desirable that there should be two officials appointed by the Home Secretary to be included in this body, and that this person also should be appointed by His Majesty on the advice of the Prime Minister, and that there should be these other two. If the Southern Parliament does not appoint anyone there will still be four—quite sufficient I should say for the purpose. My right hon. and learned Friend asked who is the appropriate Minister, who is the head of the Department. We do not at present know what names will be given to the various heads of the Departments, but, roughly, it is intended that it shall be whatever Minister in the subordinate Parliament answers to the Home Secretary in the Imperial Parliament. The duties of the Government are conferred upon him by Order in Council. It has been suggested that the police might be demanded for some improper purposes. In that case this body will have the power to refuse the request. My right hon. and learned Friend says you will get rid of the Inspector-General who comes under the Lord Lieutenant. I do not think on further consideration that he would not press that, because it is putting the Lord-Lieutenant in a very, very difficult position. After all, he will have to act on the advice of his local Ministers the same as the Governor-General of Canada or the Governor of any of the provinces of Canada, or of any State in Australia. He will have to act on their advice and to put him in a position where he will have to act on his own authority will, I think, be very hard. You must interpose somebody between the Lord-Lieutenant and the authority I have referred to in Ireland. At present the Royal Irish Constabulary are really under the Chief Secretary. He is the Member of the Irish Government to whom the Inspector-General is immediately responsible. Therefore, the idea of the Government is to set this up as a temporary body, to be responsible for the Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Metropolitan Police, during the time that elapses before they are taken over. I daresay it probably is difficult to devise a better plan. It has been considered by the Home Office. Somebody must have control of the police during the time they are reserved.

I cannot feel that this Sub-section has really been adequately considered by the Government. Unless my right hon. and learned Friend in front of me (Sir E. Carson) gets a much more complete explanation, I trust he will adhere to his Amendment and proceed to a Division. Let us just consider what the state of affairs will be when this Bill passes. There is no reason whatever to suppose that the condition of Ireland will be any better than now: that is to say, we shall have a condition in which, by the admission of all, there is a difficulty, amounting almost to an impossibility, of enforcing the ordinary law. On the top of that, you are going to create in Southern Ireland a Parliament which my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty yesterday explained to us would probably contain a very large majority of those who are in sympathy, as he put it yesterday, with the kind of acts which are being committed against discharged soldiers in Ireland. They are people who are in sympathy with all the forces of disorder. You are going to set up machinery for enforcing the law. You are going to put the two forces on which you rely for the maintenance of law and order, the Army and Navy, under one body; and you are going to put the police under this very strange body. I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir E. Carson) that unless it is this body, there will be no authority to control the police. If the body, consisting of these people, do not accept the responsibility, there will be no body at all, as I understand the Clause, to control the police. If this were a difficulty about drafting, no doubt my right hon. Friend would put it right. But the thing is much more serious than a question of drafting.

Consider what this body is going to be. There are to be two persons appointed by the Secretary of State—that is, the Home Office. I do not know why one person should be appointed by the Prime Minister. I cannot imagine why this strange distinction is made, and why two of the body should be appointed by the Home Office and one by the Prime Minister. But that is the arrangement. We are not told why this is to be done, or what it portends. In addition to that, there is to be one person appointed by each of these Parliaments. Assume for a moment that the Bill works-a very fantastic assumption—still, we are bound to make it; and that the Southern Parliament comes into effective operation. You will have, controlling the police and the Constabulary, a gentleman who is appointed by the body, which, according to the First Lord of the Admiralty, will consist mainly of those who are in favour of the commission of crimes and disorder which he described yesterday, and which prevail in Ireland at the present time. Is it a conceivable body, or will the police, ruled by a body of that kind, be an effective instrument for the maintenance of law and order?

I cannot conceive anything more astounding than to erect such a body in the condition of affairs which now prevails in Ireland. Let us take the other case, that the Southern Parliament does not function. The Clause provides that the Southern Parliament should not come into operation unless it was quite clear hat the members of it were going to take the oath of allegiance and accept the Bill. Under those circumstances we may assume that the Southern Parliament will not come into existence, because no such condition is likely to be fulfilled for a long time. Under this proposal you will have one body of police controlled by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, one by the Prime Minister and one by the Northern Parliament, and the latter will be charged with the enforcement of law and order all over the South. I cannot conceive a more provocative system than that, and it is an incredible piece of administration. I confess I do not understand this Clause, and I do not understand how it got into the Bill at all. This system has to exist for three years, and possibly for an indefinite number of years. I do not think it is any use any further demonstrating that this proposal is unworkable, and I believe this Clause, to use a colloquialism, takes the cake. It is the last Act of administrative folly, and I think it would be better to strike out the Clause, and leave the present administration of the Constabulary, pending the evolution of some more practicable system.

I hope we are going to have some answer to the arguments which have been put forward. This is a matter of the most vital importance. It is a question as to who is to run the Constabulary if this Bill passes. We are going to have a curious position in any event, because you are going to set up two Governments which will have no Constabulary, and you are going to have a Constabulary which will have no connection with the two Governments. This is a difficult matter and requires a good deal of consideration. I cannot help saying that what you have evolved is the most fantastic scheme I have ever seen, and what the necessity for it is I do not know. Why do you not leave the Constabulary as they are if you are reserving them as a reserve service? The First Lord of the Admiralty stated that it does not matter if the South of Ireland Parliament do not appoint anyone on the Board of Control; but I do not agree, because the Board of Control are only to have such power as His Majesty in Council may give. The words of the Bill are "and that body." That is the body composed of all these different elements. Supposing the body is never constituted, is it still a body able to work and control and use the police? My right hon. Friend who has just spoken has really put the matter in a nutshell as regards the absurdity of this proposal. He has pointed out that if the Southern Parliament does not function, and the Northern Parliament does, the result would be that the member of the Northern Parliament would be the one person who would govern the police in the South, and the South of Ireland representative would have to decide what the police ought to do in Ulster. I really cannot think that this proposal has been thought out by the Government.

You must have some workable system. My right hon. Friend says that once this Bill is passed, why should you throw the burden on the Lord Lieutenant of controlling the Inspector-General as he does now? He says that the Chief Secretary controls him, but the Chief Secretary is a vastly superior and intelligent man to a Lord Lieutenant I do not think you ought to be sending over that kind of Lord Lieutenant to Ireland. I remember perfectly well in my own time in this House when Lord Cadogan was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland the Chief Secretary was nowhere. I think the person appointed would do better with the help of the Inspector-General to control the Constabulary than the man appointed by the Southern Parliament. I hope the Government will give us some further assurance over this matter, and nobody could do it better than the Minister of Education, who will no doubt be able to draw a picture of the happy exercise of police powers in a quiet country like Ireland carried out by this body when it is fully developed, or perhaps without one of its arms and legs. So far as I am concerned, I look upon the matter as so grotesque that unless we are told how it is going to work I certainly shall devide the House against the Clause.

Whatever may be the merits or demerits of this body it has at any rate elicited an interesting discussion and has brought forth from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hitchin (Lord E. Cecil) a somewhat unacademic phrase. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) has asked whether this body will be properly constituted, and, indeed, whether it can be regarded as a body at all on the assumption that one of its members never puts in an appearance.

Yes, has never been appointed. My right hon. and learned Friend near me (Mr. Henry) assures me that the non-appointment of a member of this body would not vitiate its legal constitution; but if by chance his advice should not prove to be substantiated, of course the Government will look into the matter and make it quite clear that the failure of the Northern or Southern Parliament to appoint a member of that body shall not prevent that body from coming into legal existence. A good deal of criticism has been aroused as to the constitution of this body apparently on the ground that it is proposed to associate representatives of the Northern and the Southern Parliament with the administration of the police in Ireland. I confess that I cannot follow the point of that suggestion. If you are to establish Parliaments in Ireland at all, and if you are to give to the members of those Parliaments a due and proper sense of responsibility with reference to the administration of law and order in Ireland, surely it is desirable that they should have some control over the police. At the same time, I think it is perfectly reasonable, in view of the present state of Ireland, to entertain some apprehension as to whether that control in the first instance will be wisely or effectively exercised, and accordingly the Government has taken power in this Clause to provide that the repre- sentatives of the two Parliaments shall have associated with them representatives of the Crown, who will constitute the majority of that body.

When the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin expresses some apprehension as to the results that might ensue upon the assumption that the Southern representative was an improper person anxious to disseminate disorder and disloyalty, surely the answer to that objection is that the Southern member will be overruled by the majority. You must take one of two courses. Either you must say that for a period of three years you do not propose to associate the popularly elected Parliaments in the North and South of Ireland with the administration of law and order at all, or else you must adopt some such scheme as that which is enshrined in this Sub-section. There is no other alternative except one. The third possible course would be to give to the two Parliaments complete control over the police system of Ireland. In this matter the Government, by their proposal, have steered a middle course between those two extremes. It is always, of course, possible to pour ridicule upon a composite body, and I am very familiar with that kind of criticism in academic life. You cannot constitute a composite body which is not exposed to that kind of criticism, but I maintain that on broad grounds of safety this is the only course possible if you are going, on the one hand, to take security against the spread of disorder in Ireland, and, on the other hand, indicate that you are willing from the very first to associate the two popularly elected Parliaments, which it is the object of this Bill to create in Ireland, with the great task of the preservation of law and order.

I only wish to ask a question with regard to this Sub-section. The words are that they

"shall have such powers in relation to the maintenance of law and order in Ireland as His Majesty in Council may by Order determine."

I wish to ask whether those words authorise the enactment of a new criminal code by Order in Council? The Committee will notice that the powers to be vested in this body are not powers conferred by any existing Acts, but are simply such powers as His Majesty in Council may by Order determine.

I listened with considerable alarm to the reply of the President of the Board of Education, who said that in this case a a middle course has been taken. It seems to me that it is by no means a safe course. It makes the working of the thing almost impossible. The Committee on the preceding Amendment showed a very firm determination to see that the police are safeguarded and protected to the fullest possible extent during the transitional period. I would like to point out that, in addition to that, we have at all costs to protect life and property, and to take every possible step to secure that end. Now the thing which lies at the heart of this protection is the control and efficiency of the police, and a feeling in that body that they are going to be properly backed up. What is the position of this composite body? Is it going to be the appropriate body to do this thing? I do not understand it at all. It is a purely composite body, as I gather, and I would like to know to whom it will be responsible when once it has been established. Is it to be responsible to the Secretary of State for War, or it may be the Home Department, whoever appoints two members of this body; is it a more august person, the Prime Minister, who is to appoint one member of the body to be the person to whom it is to be responsible, or is it the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland who is also to appoint one member, that it is to be responsible to?

I am not asking these questions in order to laugh the thing out of court. We in this House will want to know to whom we are to address our inquiries as to the maintenance of order in Ireland. We will want to know who is to be responsible for this body which, in its turn, is to be responsible for the protection, control and efficiency of the police force. The whole thing is left absolutely in the dark. Whether one is approaching this question from the point of view that the Bill is too hopeless, or whether from the point of view of one who wishes to make it a success and hopes that it will work, I do sincerely hope that an undertaking will be given by the Government that, between now and the Report stage, they will think out some other course. It is idle to ask us to go on in this way. Pledges have been given as to what is to be done for the protection of the police, and I hope the Government are going to consider the admirable suggestion of the right hon. Member for Duncairn in that regard. But the main question is, what is the body which is going to administer the force? I can only say that, although I am far more hopeful than many hon. Members regarding the prospects of the Bill, I shall support my right hon. and learned Friend if he presses this matter to a Division unless he can secure an undertaking from the Government that they will reconsider the matter.

The question is, how are we to arrive at the constitution of the body which is to be responsible for law and order in Ireland. The Clause itself makes provision for that, and says how the body is to be constituted. There are to be members appointed by the local Parliaments in Ireland and others appointed by the Home Secretary in the Imperial Parliament and by the Prime Minister. But the very first essential to give effect to this Clause is to create the body under which law and order will be administered in Ireland in accordance with provisions to be hereafter laid down, and unless that body is properly constituted operations will never be commenced. It is futile to say that this Clause will be operated by a majority. The Bill lays it down that the body shall consist of a certain fixed number of members, and it shall receive certain powers from His Majesty to enable it to maintain law and order in Ireland. Let us assume for a moment that the Southern Parliament never appoints its representative. The body, as a consequence, will be short of its full complement, and if it be not properly constituted, what about the rules and regulations which it may seek to enforce? Its proceedings will at once be open to challenge in the Law Courts, which will be called upon to consider by what authority it has laid down certain things in connection with the control of the police. The Courts will be asked to say in the first instance whether the body, having always been short of its full number, has been properly constituted. I have no doubt that the Courts will decide that, it not having been fully constituted, the proceedings have been illegal, and will thereupon set them aside.

I want to ask one or two questions as to the constitution of this body. I take it it is obvious from the terms of the Sub-section that the representative of the Southern Parliament will be a Southern Irishman, and that the representative of the Northern Parliament will be a Northern Irishman. Two people are to be appointed by the Home Secretary in this Parliament, and I take it that they will be Irishmen, one representing probably moderate Home Rule views-a moderate Nationalist, in fact-and the other representing a North of Ireland Home Ruler with a view to checking the extreme propensities of the North of Ireland Home Secretary. Then there is to be a third man appointed by the Prime Minister. He will really be the boss; he will be the biggest man on the board. He will hold a commanding position. He may probably have a title. He will preside over the body, and will be able to sway effectively what the other four gentlemen want to do. The South of Ireland Home Secretary and the North of Ireland Home Secretary in the event of a General Election, followed by a change of government, would automatically go out of office. I want to know whether the gentlemen they nominate on the body will be removable for the same reason. Again, are the two gentlemen to be appointed by the Home Secretary here also to disappear when we have a change of Government in this House? Further, in the event of a General Election and a new Prime Minister coming into power, will the Prime Minister's nominee also be changed?

Probably there will not be changes in the cases of the nominations from the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary in this country, and thus we shall have three men permanently appointed, and two holding office temporarily. I do not know that that is a very satisfactory state of affairs, but I am glad to think that the nominees appointed from this House will be permanencies. It would be very dangerous if it were otherwise. I want to ask further, who is to pay these people? Who is to pay the two gentlemen appointed by the Home Secretary in this House, and who is to pay the nominee of the Prime Minister? Obviously, of course, the Southern and the Northern Parliaments will pay their representa- tives. I want further to inquire, is it to be an English or an Irish charge? I think myself, that the last two lines of this Clause are very dangerous, in so far as they provide that this body shall have such powers in relation to the maintenance of law and order in Ireland as His Majesty in Council may" by Order determine. Many of us do not like legislation by Order in Council. We hold the view that it is a dangerous form of legislation, and I am rather surprised it did not occur to any Member of this Committee to move an Amendment on that point. Thanks to the intervention of the right hon. Member for Duncairn, we have had an opportunity of discussing this Clause at some length, and I hope we shall get from the Attorney-General some reply to the questions which I have put.

I, too, want rather more explanations than we have yet had. First of all, I want to know to whom this body is to be responsible. Remember, it is to have the control of law and order in Ireland. Then I want to know if the Members who are to be appointed by the Secretary of State are to be appointed for life, or during good behaviour, or whether they are to come in and go out with the British Government, or with the Irish Government. We have had no information yet on those points. If the body is to be responsible to this House, I would ask, "Is the British House of Commons to be the arbiter of the whole question of internal order in Ireland?" My second point is a smaller one. The powers of this body are to be laid down by Order in Council, and as far as I can gather we shall have no opportunity to discuss the terms of any Order in Council which may be promulgated and put into force, without any Debate in this House. That view is reinforced by the fact that Clause 66 provides for laying on the Table of, this House for forty days, Transfer Orders between the different Departments. That is a much less important matter than an Order in Council, and if a special provision is deemed necessary for laying on the Table those Transfer Orders, and there is no such provision with regard to laying Orders in Council, the necessary inference is that such Orders in Council are not to be laid. I think that is an oversight. A matter of this importance ought not to be done without the authority of this House, and I should like an assurance that an Amendment will be made to that effect.

6.0 P.M.

I think it is very easily understood how this Sub-Clause came to be part of the Bill. We have only to look at those who are in charge of the Bill to make that discovery. What those who have charge of this Bill know about matters of this character it is difficult to understand. We have the Minister of Education, who is an intelligent member of the Government, and one who is certainly capable of looking after the duties connected with his own Department; but I suppose he had never seen this Clause until he came into the House. I am satisfied that the learned Attorney-General knows all about the Bill, but when he rises to make a speech in connection with it, he does it so half-heartedly that we wonder if he is serious. Then we have the First Lord of the Admiralty. I can easily imagine him drafting this Clause. If he had read some of his former speeches, when he was an ardent anti-Home Ruler, and then, in the somersault" that he was making to introduce this Bill, had attempted to draft this Clause. I believe that this could easily be the result of such a process. That is exactly the type of the Bill we are discussing, from beginning to end. No one seems to understand this Clause or to think it will be able to work. In those speeches of the First Lord to which I have referred, he was replying, I think, on the Second Reading, as an anti-Home Ruler, to the then First Lord of the Admiralty as a Home Ruler. Sometimes I think the present Secretary of State for War is rather tickled at the change of front, when he thinks of the Debates that then used to take place. The present First Lord then laid most emphatic stress on the question as to what the Government intended to do with the police force, and particularly who was to control that force during the six years that they were a reserved service. He saw the difficulty then, and he sees it now, as to who will have charge of the police force during this period; and this is the result. It has been already described as one of the most fantastic Clauses of the Bill, and, like a great many others, it is, so far as I can see, perfectly unworkable. As I have mentioned before, the crux of the situation is that the police force is regarded as a separate unit in Ireland, and this Sub-section does not suggest how it is to be divided between the northern and southern parts. I trust that the Committee will divide on this question if the Government do not give us more satisfaction than they have on this matter.

Needless to say, I am extremely conscious of the deficiencies on my part which have been alluded to by the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down. Nevertheless, I do venture to-offer a few additional observations in reply to the criticisms which have been made. First of all, hon. Members asked to whom this body will be responsible, and who, in effect, will be responsible for the maintenance of law and order in Ireland. I take it that, in any constitution of a federal character, in any constitution in which powers are divided between a local authority and a national or central authority, the responsibility for law and order must necessarily be divided, and it always, in effect, is divided. It would be a catastrophe, I think, if the local Governments in Ireland did not feel responsible for law and order. One of the great vices of Irish national life has been the fact that governing opinion in Ireland has not felt itself responsible for law and order. No constitution framed on self-governing lines for Ireland could be satisfactory unless it invited those statesmen, who took upon themselves the responsibility of local administration in Ireland, to assume responsibility for law and order. At the same time, it would be equally unsatisfactory if this House were to regard itself as entirely exempt from any further responsibility in respect of the maintenance of law and order in Ireland. It is clear that disorders might arise in Ireland which would necessarily fix the attention of hon. Members of this House, and that inquiries would necessarily be made with respect to them. Ireland is far too closely connected with this country, the interests of the two countries are far too closely interlaced, for England ever to disinterest itself in the question of the preservation of law and order in Ireland. Consequently we must face the fact that responsibility for law and order will essentially, and from the nature of things, be divided. Some doubt has been expressed as to whether this Committee which is constituted for the purpose of controlling the police in Ireland can legally function, and will be legally constituted, if one of its members is not appointed. I think that is an important question, and I will give the Committee an undertaking that we will look into it, and will insert words in the Bill for the purpose of making it quite clear that, if one Member, or two Members, be not appointed, nevertheless the body shall be regarded as legally constituted.

In the first instance the expenses will come on to the Reserved Services, and consequently will be paid by this country.

Yes. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Durham (Major Hills) asked whether it would not be possible to introduce words ensuring that the Order in Council which is mentioned in the last words of the Sub-section shall be laid on the table of the House. That seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable demand, and I will see that words are inserted to that end. Some questions were asked, and I think they were very pertinent, as to what is to be the term of office of the Members appointed to this body. As the Bill was first drafted, this body was to be appointed for a period not in any case exceeding three years, and for that reason it was thought unnecessary to introduce any reference to the term of office. We assumed that the Crown representatives would be appointed for the full period of three years, or for any shorter period that might be necessary, and, of course, that the local Parliaments would be represented by their two appropriate Ministers. Now, however, that my right hon. Friend has accepted the Amendment proposed by the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson), the question is rather different. Under the Clause as it will be amended on the Report stage, it is possible that this body may continue for a period longer than three years—for an indefinite period; and it will, therefore, be necessary to insert words defining the term of service for those members of the body who are appointed by the Crown.

Would my right hon. Friend tell us, before he sits down, whether there was any such Clause as this in the 1914 Act? As ar as my recollection goes, the Constabulary there were left just as they are—a reserved service—and it was not necessary to set up anything of this nature.

I confess that I listened with amazement, astonishment, and trepidation to the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Education. What it amounted to was that, for possibly an indefinite period, the care of law and order in Ireland will be reposing, not in the local Parliament, not in this Parliament, but in a divided responsibility between this Parliament and the other two. Words fail me to express my feelings on the fact that any responsible Minister of the Crown should get up in this House and seriously propose that the Government of a great country, with five millions of people, should be entrusted to a body of five gentlemen, three of whom are to be appointed by this Parliament, one by the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and one by the Parliament of Southern Ireland; and that in some extraordinary way, all the three Parliaments are to share in the responsibility for law and order. On the very first day it would break down. Supposing on the second day that Parliament had assembled in Dublin and had taken the oath of allegiance—a very large assumption, I admit—and they then proceeded to proclaim a Republic. The Government at Westminster, obviously, if they are going to carry out the duties the people of England expect of them, would at once have to declare and take steps to ensure that so treasonable an action was not permitted for a single moment. But it is quite possible under this wonderful measure and this marvellous declaration on the part of the Government that if one of the Members appointed by this Government were absent there might be an equality of opinion—there could not be a majority, because the representative of Ulster would not take that course, but it is quite possible there might be a division of opinion if only two Members were present as to what was to be done. The only thing that would remain would be that we should have to call in the soldiers who would still be under this Government. I need not labour the point, it is so obvious. In hundreds of instances we might have endless bickerings between this Government and the Government in Dublin, and I think my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) will admit that there might be possible misunderstanding, and even more, between this Parliament and the Parliament in Belfast. My breath is so taken away that I seriously ask whether you, Sir, will not take a Motion to report Progress in order that the Government may consider the Clause and the Committee may consider what they are faced with owing to the declaration of the Government.

It is not possible on a Motion to report Progress to continue the Debate further. It would be better to pursue the matter a little further if the hon. Member is not satisfied with any explanation that has been given.

It appears to me that a Committee is an eminently unsuitable body to control a police force at all, and particularly a police force which is in the situation in which the police force in Ireland is to-day. It is merely an auxiliary wing of the English garrison, and I would willingly agree to that arrangement which is best calculated to preserve the police force in that security and safety which it so eminently deserves. But it seems to me that the decisive and imperative measures which it is necessary to take in order to preserve that security and safety for the police force cannot be properly carried out by a Committee at all. The Minister for Education seemed to think he was making a speech on the government of India and not the government of Ireland. This is a case of diarchy, pure and simple, a case in which the representatives of the Northern and Southern Parliaments will be members of this body, presumably to give them a little education in the art of governing a police force. To begin with, how is it possible that they should have such an education in the art of governing a police force when they will be completely outvoted upon this body, and anything they may wish to do will carry no weight whatever, and how is it possible this Committee should work at all, and how is it possible that these two Members should be effective Members of the Committee when, as far as is apparent at present, one of them certainly will be utterly hostile to the country and will practically be a member of a nation which is fighting this country? I hope, very sincerely, that my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion that the consideration of the Clause should be postponed can be adopted, because, I for one, if my right hon. Friend presses the Amendment to a Division, shall most certainly support him in the Lobby.

I rather hope we shall go to a Division and press this at this stage and on Report against the Government, because it really is, to my mind, a most extraordinary statement we have had from the Minister of Education, because it is really a fundamental point. The whole idea, I understood, of the Bill was to get rid of the responsibility of maintaining law and order on to the two Irish Parliaments. Now we are told by the Minister of Education that in future this House is to continue to be responsible for law and order in Ireland, only that we are not entirely responsible, but we shall share that responsibility with the two Irish Parliaments. It really is quite ludicrous. My hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Coote) said this was diarchy. Diarchy has been much abused, but it is not such folly as this. Diarchy is the separate division of certain functions, and law and order is only one function, and only one body can be responsible for it. This idea that you can delegate part of the responsibility of law and order and retain some of it in another body is to my mind absolutely ludicrous. Then with regard to this Committee. When the President of the Board of Education was talking, I seemed to be back in my Oxford days, when I sat at his feet and used to hear him lecture about the Tudors. He was talking in the atmosphere of More's "Utopia." Law and order in Ireland was a perfectly easy thing, and you could get Irishmen to come together, a Minister from the South of Ireland Parliament and a Minister from the North of Ireland Parliament, and three people appointed by this Parliament, so much loved by some of the Irish people, and they should sit together, and then it would be perfectly easy to defend the police and to maintain law and order in Ireland. The crux of the whole of this Bill when it becomes an Act, and the crux of Ireland for the next years, is going to be this question of the maintenance of law and order. Who is going to see that the Irishmen obey the ten commandments; I will not say any other law? Who will see that murder and theft will not go on? Looking at the condition of Ireland as it is to-day, the proposal we are now discussing seems to be a mockery of the whole Irish situation and a mockery of the whole Bill, and I shall certainly vote against the Government.

I am very sorry I have not been able to be here during the whole of the Debate. I have had to go to a conference, but I have come back and picked up the threads of what has happened. I think there is a misunderstanding. My hon. Friend (Mr. Ormsby-Gore) has denounced the Government with his usual eloquence and vigour, but I think he denounced them under some misapprehension. I understand the criticism is not against the constitution of this new body but against the position it will occupy. [HON. MEMBERS: "Both!"] Very well, but mainly against the position—I was dealing with my hon. Friend—of having to be responsible in one sense for the maintenance of order in Ireland. But on a previous Amendment we were discussing the future position of the police and I think the tendency of the speeches on the whole was that it would not be safe to hand them over to the new Parliament until, at all events, it was quite clear that they were settled in their administration and were prepared to accept their responsibility to govern Ireland in a reasonable, businesslike and proper spirit. Then who is to control the police force in the meantime? We propose to reserve the police force for a period of a little more than three years, but, as the result of a previous Debate, we have altered that and have made it not earlier, so it is reserved for three years. How is it to be administered between the time when the Bill comes into force and the assumption of government by the new Parliaments? The original suggestion was that it should be administered by the Lord Lieutenant through the Inspector-General. That is a proposal which I shall certainly resist. If the whole House chooses to vote against the Government, the Government will resist it. You have no right to throw upon the Lord Lieutenant the enormously difficult question of actually administering the police. That is what it means.

What is the actual working practice? We all hope, whatever we may believe, that the present horrible condition of things in Ireland will be brought to an end and we shall get Ireland back to a better state of things; but even in ordinary times what happens is this: You have a disturbance in some part of Ireland, caused probably by some agrarian difficulty. The question there arises for the administration to decide: Are the police to go or are they not? As that is administered now that is not done by the Inspector-General. All he does is to send a report to the Chief Secretary from his County or District Inspector and to ask for orders. It is one of the difficulties which have faced each Government that has tried to deal with this most thorny question. But under this Bill the Chief Secretary passes and there is no one left but the Lord Lieutenant and the two Governments. Quite obviously, if the two Governments are not responsible for the police, and the police are not transferred under the previous part of the Clause till a much later period, during the temporary period pending the transfer there must be an authority to control and administer the police. It is really not fair to say, as it has been said in this Debate, that this has not been thought out. It has been thought out continually, and we have given it an immense deal of time. It is very difficult to find a really satisfactory authority. We thought we had when we suggested that the two Governments should be represented on that authority, and that there should be three in addition who were appointed by the Crown—by a Secretary of State. I do not understand that a better alternative has been proposed. The Government could not assent to the proposal that there shall be no body between the police and the Lord Lieutenant. That is out of the question as far as we are concerned. There is no principle involved in this. There is nothing sacred in the selection of these particular Members. Has any alternative of a better kind been proposed? I have only been here for a short time and I do not know, but I am told the constitution has been criticised and the future exercise of power. It is quite obvious that if the police are not to be transferred immediately, pending the transfer there must be a body set up to control them.

But during all those discussions we never could make out who was going to be the Minister who would administer the police. That was the constant difficulty. We set up this body composed of these five representatives, and their business is to control and administer the police. We have had no better suggestion. I am sorry that we find ourselves in direct conflict with so many of my hon. Friends, but I am afraid that, in the absence of a better alternative, we must adhere to the proposals we have made.

The speech to which we have just listened might be fairly summarised by saying that the right hon. Gentleman says that the proposal is a bad one, and the only one that has so far occurred to the Government is a worse one. That is a bad principle on which to construct a Bill. It would be difficult to find any Clause, so far as the discussion has proceeded, which has been so riddled by argument as this Clause. Upon the confession of the President of the Board of Education, it requires amendment in at least three important respects. One relates to the time during which the members are to hold office. Another has reference to the limitation of the powers of His Majesty in Council, and in the third place, provisions are to be introduced which will make it possible for the body to exercise its functions notwithstanding the fact that one or more members have never been appointed. These are three very important matters which go to the whole root of the problem. We are told that somebody must control the police, and that a Committee is the only body that has so far been suggested. My hon. and gallant Friend? behind me pointed out the objection to a committee controlling the police. I think that occurs to everybody as an insuperable and unanswerable objection to this Clause. I suppose the classic instance of the unsuitability of a Committee for a function of this sort is that over which Lord Lawrence, as he afterwards was, presided, in connection with the administration of the Punjab. He fell out with his eminent brother, Henry Lawrence, and the result was that Henry Lawrence was removed to an administrative office in some other part of India, and Lord Lawrence was able to make dispositions in the Punjab which saved India for the United Kingdom and the Empire. Those dispositions would have been impossible if the Committee had continued to exist and to exercise functions which ought to be placed in the hands of one man. Let us imagine what is to be the position of this Committee, composed as is anticipated in the Clause. There may be a passive resister appointed by an officer or by the appropriate Department of the Southern Parliament, and two gentlemen appointed by a Secretary of State. We are not told which Secretary of State. This is a fourth respect in which the Clause has to be amended. This body, with possibly passive resisters acting upon it, is to control the police in Ireland for an indeterminate number of years.

This is the most depressing series of Debates which I have attended in this House Like others on these Benches, but unlike Members on the opposite Benches, we have attended out of a sense of duty and under great difficulty to make such contribution as we are able to make by our vote and our speech. When a Debate takes place such as the Debate which has taken place to-night, the only answer we get is non-possumus from the Minister of Education, and then the First Lord of the Admiralty, overwhelmed with other duties, comes in to pick up the threads of the Debate, and the only answer he can give is that no better proposal than this has occurred to the Government. I am not complaining of the right hon. Gentleman's absence, and I hope he will not introduce any unnecessary heat or that he will think there have been any unfair imputations upon him. We recognise the difficult position in which he is placed, and the extremely complex problem with which he has to deal. All I am asking is that under the circumstances, when a large part of the Committee is outside the Chamber and not listening to the arguments, particular weight should be given to the arguments that are fairly advanced and cannot be substantially met. It may be reasonable in ordinary circumstances when all parts of the House are represented, and when the greater body of the Members are in the House, that the Government should rely upon the force of their majority and the influence of the Whips in the Division Lobby; but what I do ask, and I am entitled to ask it on behalf of those who attend, is that when the weight of the argument is on one side and all in one direction, however difficult and complex the problem may be, the Government should take further opportunity of considering the matter and should either withdraw the Clause and let it stand out of the Bill, and reintroduce a new Clause on the Report stage, or they should agree to a Motion to report progress, so that they can give fresh consideration to the question, with the assistance which many outside the Government will be prepared to give them in the light of the 1914 Act, so that we shall have the best proposals that can be made to make this Bill the best possible Bill under the circumstances.

If this Bill had gone to a Standing Committee, a procedure which I always advocate, the Government would almost certainly have been defeated, because the persons voting would have heard all the arguments and the answers made by the Government. Within the limits of human rationality there is only one conclusion possible after the arguments that have been put forward and the answers of the Government. I should like to ask the Government a few more questions, which I hope they will have the courtesy to answer, as to what really will happen. I have listened with great attention to the President of the Board of Education and the First Lord of the Admiralty, but I still do not understand how this Clause will actually work in experience. Let us take a case such as actually happened before the War. There was a gun-running episode near Dublin, and the police either acted too slackly or too severely, I forget which, with the result that a police official was removed from his position by the Government. Let us suppose that some similar event occurred in Ireland in the future, which is an extremely likely thing, and some part of the police administration was exposed to very severe criticism. This body would take a particular view. They might either dismiss a police official or refuse to dismiss him. Let us suppose that they dismissed him, and that that decision was strongly disapproved by a majority in this House at Westminster. What would happen? Would it be within the power of the Government or of the Prime Minister or of the Secretary of State to send out new emissaries to carry out the wishes of this House, and to reverse the policy adopted? Is that what would happen? Supposing there was a Debate here, and the Government were either defeated or they gave way under prssure. How would they carry out the wishes of this House? Would they have power to recall these three Members from the body, and would three other Members be appointed and sent out to override the opinion of the two Parliaments in Ireland, and to impose the wish of this House, and to reinstate the dismissed official? Is that the way in which it is to work? The point is one of importance.

Supposing the three Members could be recalled, and supposing it was possible to reverse the decision, then this body is really responsible to this House, and the responsibility to the Irish Parliaments is just a sham and a pretence. There is no responsibility to the Irish Parliaments, because they would be overruled. My right hon. Friend seems to think so. Then what is the advantage of having these three people there unless they attend for instruction like officers at a court martial, and to sit there to see how the police are managed by orders coming from here? If a decision has been taken here and if these three Members are really to be in fact the agents of the British Government, it is a strange development of the scheme of self-government for Ireland, but I will pass over, because I am not a great believer in the principle itself; if they are to be the agents of the British Government in carrying out the orders of the British Government, how is the British House of Commons going to make their responsibility effective? Is there to be supply voted in Committee of Supply in order to give a proper opportunity to this House of controlling and criticising these three gentlemen, who are to be in effect th supreme authority in respect of law and order in Ireland? Surely it will be necessary to deal with that. You must have some machinery for Parliamentary control somewhere. You must make these three people really subject to some Parliament, either a Parliament here or a Parliament elsewhere. Then there must be a vote in Supply here. Is that provided in the Bill? Are the reserve services to be voted in Committee of Supply here?

I want to know where the seat of government in the matter of law and order will be. Is there any advantage in having the two Members from the two Parliaments? Is it not merely provoking a struggle? Conceive how awkward the situation would be. Suppose you have a difference of opinion, a violent controversy in Ireland and the appropriate Member from one Parliament takes one view. Who is to decide the appropriateness of a Member of the Parliament of Southern Ireland seems to me to be a most bewildering thing. Suppose the appropriate Member, whoever he is, takes one view. It may well happen that he converts the three British Members who are there, and they take a certain line of action, whereupon there is great uproar, and the three British Members are recalled, and three new Members are put in to overrule the decision. Is that how the thing would work? Can you conceive a system of working more likely to cause bitterness and resistence and to lead to the evils from which Ireland is now suffering, and to remedy which is the whole purpose of this Bill? It is the worst constructed scheme for promoting law and order that the wit of man has devised. It is the most likely to cause friction and the least likely to cause efficiency. In the administration of the criminal law you require secrecy for many things. You want to take a decision whether a particular person is to be arrested or a particular gun-running is to be stopped. How can you take a secret decision when one of the Members of the body of five is bitterly hostile to the whole policy? Quite possible he may be running the guns himself. At any rate he is a person not in the least in harmony with the policy of the Committee, and he is going to thwart it by every means in his power. The Government ought to keep the appointment of that body, if body there is to be, either in the Imperial hands or in the local hands, and let it be responsible to the Parliament to which it belongs. Why have a body? Why not have a single individual, a Minister responsible to Parliament, whose salary is voted in the ordinary way in Committee of Supply?

The hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. O'Connor), in a great many speeches upon Home Rule matters in days gone by, was accustomed to tell us that the principal criticism against the Government of Ireland was that it was carried out by means of committees and commissions. On one occasion I think he gave us a list of no fewer than 23 which were in existence, and which, in his opinion, and therefore, presumably, in the opinion of the section of the people for whom we are trying to legislate now, was responsible for the misgovernment of Ireland. In other words, he ascribed the greater portion of the difficulty that arose from time to time to the fact that, instead of there being individuals responsible for the executive department of the Government, commissions and committees had been appointed. I have taken no part until this moment in any of these discussions with regard to this Bill, but this question of law and order—I will not say its maintenance, because it is not there now, but its establishment—in Ireland seems to me to be the crux as to whether the Bill which we are now really considering should really go forward or should not. The question is, Can the Government by means of this Bill provide and establish law and order in Ireland? I have listened with great care to the whole of this Debate, and I am bound to say that I think that the course proposed by the Government is hopelessly impracticable and will break down at the very beginning. We are to have a committee of five, of whom three are to be responsible to this Parliament, one responsible to the Ulster Parliament, and one responsible to the Parliament for the South of Ireland. How such a divided body, with not only divided responsibilities, but appointed by different bodies coming there with different views, could possibly carry out that important matter of the establishment of law and order in Ireland, I do not know.

One hon. Member has referred rather pathetically, I thought, to the safety of the police in Ireland which he said they deserved. God knows they have not got it. The whole of this Clause and the whole Debate are illustrative of the difficulty into which we seem to get here immediately we begin to discuss this Irish matter. Everything seems to be the wrong way up. The suggestions that are made are, on the face of them, impracticable almost to the verge of being ridiculous. We see in charge of the Bill the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Minister of Education. What on earth has the Admiralty got to do with Ireland, or what in Heaven's name has the Minister of Education? That is an illustration. Then we are to have law and order carried out by this committee. Law and order, in my opinion, can only be established, maintained and carried out by one person. There is no use in having that possibility of divided authority to deal with this exceedingly important crucial question of law and order, and when you come to divide the responsibility as to whom they are responsible to and you are to have a portion of this Commission responsible to this House and a portion responsible to the other two Parliaments, then you get confusion and difficulty which it passes the wit of man to characterise in proper terms. I apologice for intervening in the Debate at all, but it seems to me that the question of law and order in Ireland is so important that anybody who has got any views upon it at all ought to express them.

I am very sorry that my hon. Friend who has just spoken is so annoyed and offended at the persons who are in charge of this Bill. I can only assure him that I am not here on my own choice. As regards this particular proposal, as I have alreay said, I do not regard it as a principle, the alteration of which would mean disaster to the Bill. I am rather surprised at some of the criticism, because we took our proposal from the practice which exists both in the counties and in the boroughs. My hon. Friend who has just spoken condemns the management of the police by committees, but you have the joint committee in the counties and the watch committee in the boroughs managing the police, and, as far as my experience goes, managing it exceedingly well, and the individual control is exercised, so far as my experience goes, by the chairman.

In my county the Head Constable has the chairman to whom he can go for an immediate decision.

The whole executive power is vested in the Head Constable, who is responsible by Statute.

So in this case responsibility for administration rests with this Committee. I quite share the view which has been expressed by the hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Inskip) that it is most undesirable—and there is nothing which personally I dislike more—than that the Government should press a proposal which is against the general view of Parliament. I quite share the view that it is undesirable that hon. Members who object to a proposal should be voted down by others who may not have heard the Debate, and I would be glad if in some way we can find a modus vivendi. I do not think that it would be quite fair to ask us to withdraw this Clause now, but I am quite prepared to consider whether we cannot substitute for the committee of five a single administrator. In answer to my Noble Friend (Lord H. Cecil), it always has been contemplated in regard to the reserved services that during the period of reservation they will, of course, be administered by the Imperial Government, and there must be a Vote by this House in order that it may be able to control the Minister in that respect.

How will the Government responsible to this House exercise its control over the three Members appointed by it? Will they be dismissible at pleasure?

No, I do not think they would, but they will be represented here by a member of the administration, who would be responsible for the vote.

Suppose this body took a decision of which this House disapproved, would it be possible for the Minister to recall the three Members and send out three other Members to revise the proceedings of this body?

No, I do not think it would. A Minister would represent the Irish Government responsible for the control of the police during the period of reservation. The whole Government would be responsible, and they would have to take such steps as calling for resignation.

However, it is unnecessary to discuss that now, as the Committee has come to a decision entirely opposed to the process of acting through this Committee, and quite obviously desires some form of single control. If the Committee will accept that from me, without introducing the Amendment now, I will undertake to see what better form for carrying out its desire can be brought up when we come to the Report stage.

I am very glad that my right hon. Friend has taken the course which he has proposed, but I do hope that he will consider the fact, which is a very important one, that the Act of 1914 simply reserves the service, and that would keep up the continuity of the present system until you dissolved and got rid of the Royal Irish Constabulary. But I am very glad that we have had this discussion. I have not yet heard any answer from the Government as to the words at the end of the Clause. I hope that, whatever is set up, they will be omitted—

7.0 P.M.

The little interest that the Committee is taking in this. Bill is lamentable. The course of what has happened in relation to this Committee makes one wonder what is going to become of Parliamentary government at all. Look at the seriousness of this. Here we are discussing the whole question of law and order in a country like Ireland and what is to be the position of the police immediately on this Bill becoming law. And how is this House treating it? Already two of the large parties in this House have said, "We will not give you the slightest assistance. We will not even come and listen or do anything in relation to this Bill, because we do not like the Bill." Was there ever a more momentous decision taken by politicians or of statesmen in relation to a Bill? What would have been thought in the last Parliament when the Act of 1914 was going through if the whole Unionist party and the Ulster Members had got up and said, "We do not like your Home Rule Bill, and we are not going to stay here"? You are going to reduce this Parliament to a farce. The moment statesmen and politicians begin to say that the way to legislate is to be absent and to refuse to co-operate in criticism, the whole basis of Parliamentary institutions is shattered. I wish that the country would consider what is the effect of this abstention of their Members in relation to this Bill. Are capitalists to stay away whenever there is a Labour Bill, and are Labour Members to stay away whenever there is a Bill affecting capital? Are we all to stay away when we do not like a Bill? That is the time when we ought to be here. Every man in this House has taken upon himself the solemn duty of giving the best of his abilities to the elucidation of these extraordinarily difficult matters, never more difficult than they are at present. I think it most regrettable that great statesmen who have held high office, who have been accountable for the Act of 1914, should say, "Because we are a minority, and do not like the Bill that you have brought in, we are going to abstain from all help in the solution of these questions, and we are going, as far as we can, by our conduct to belittle your Act, and to try even before it is passed to bring it into contempt in England and in Ireland, the countries that will have to live under it." That is an impossible position, and we ought to protest against it.

I am sure that every Member who has listened to the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman will endorse his sentiments. The right hon. Gentleman very indignantly and rightly referred to the fact that the authority of Parliament would not only be weakened, but would be destroyed if it ever become known that we were appreciated by Ministers because of our absence rather than because of our presence. Just before the First Lord of the Admiralty made his speech, you, Mr. Chairman, had called upon me. I want to know whether it is according to the rules of this House that, when a private Member has been called upon, a Minister of the Crown has a right to step in and take the place of the private Member. I make my protest because it is in accord with what the right hon. Gentleman was saying—that if this House is to be ruled by the Front Bench there will be fewer private Members in attendance than there are now. Let me turn to the main question. I have listened to almost every word of this discussion. I thought the Minister of Education was speaking with his tongue in his cheek and was waiting for the return of the First Lord of the Admiralty, and that the latter would show, as he has shown, some signs of grace. It appears to me as not merely a reflection on the Government, but as playing with this thing and converting it into a farce, that when we have a great Bill like this, which is going to affect not only Ireland and this country, but the whole of the Empire, the Minister who ought to be in charge is not here, and that men who have taken part in the great historic Debates on both sides in the past should be absent. To me it is incomprehensible that a Committee, assuming it to be a body of inetlligent men, in drafting this Bill could ever have assumed that it was possible to govern a country by a body made up of one representative selected from the Northern Parliament, one selected from the Southern Parliament, three selected by the Government, and the Prime Minister to be responsible for one. What would be the position of the Prime Minister's nominee when the Committee met and that nominee took exception to what was decided by the North and the South? When he had taken such exception and the question was raised in this House, would the Prime Minister have to defend his nominee against the two representatives of the two Parliaments in Ireland?

I have been for some time a diligent student of constitutions in my attempt to find a way out of this unhappy tangle in Ireland. Many attempts have been made at the building up of constitutions, but if you search the whole records of history I do not think you will find anything so Gilbertian as this proposal for dealing with law and order in Ireland. Unless the Cabinet can formulate some better method, I would ask them, in heaven's name, not to create a situation that will make the Irish problem more difficult than it is now. Unless the Cabinet or the representative of the Government can give a much more substantial promise that this question shall be dealt with in a statesmanlike manner, I shall regard it as my duty to vote against the Government.

As one who took, perhaps too frequently, a talking part in the old controversies on Home Rule, I must also say to the Government that Is hall vote against them if they attempt to maintain their present position. To every body who is a Home Ruler this is the crux of the whole question. We are considering the government of Ireland in its very essence now. If this is wrong the whole thing is wrong, and the Bill will be vitiated. I think there has been a good deal of confusion, and the confusion is apparent on the Front Bench. The Minister of Education made a speech which showed that he was endeavouring to give reality to a Home Rule Bill, and then, quite unconsciously, the First Lord of the Admiralty arranged a compromise and approached the matter from the opposite point of view which we know has been traditional with him for a very long time. I think the Committee should give a little more consideration to the two sides of the question, and not assume, as has been assumed in the last twenty minutes, that there is only one side to it. If there is to be a Home Rule Bill at all, a Bill that is to have any pretence of devolved government in Ireland, the Minister of Education was quite right in saying that the maintenance of law and order must be a dual function. In the United States of America there are two sets of officers throughout the States. There are state officers and federal officers. I think that the Government ought again to consider this side of the question. I agree that you must maintain a central police and central authority in Ireland, probably for more than three years. I can conceive that the Parliament, as the central federal Parliament, will have to ensure for many more than three or six years that it has officers in Ireland who will see to the carrying out of the requirements of the central authority. But surely that does not exclude an arrangement whereby the local Parliaments could begin to build up the police in the sense in which we understand police in this country, a municipal police, a police to look after—

I am not sure that the hon. Member has quite apprehended the particular point we are now discuss- ing. By Sub-section (1) it has been decided that the police are to be a reserved service for a period, but in Subsection (2) we are concerned only with the management of the police during that interim period.

The point I was putting was that the Government should keep clear in their mind the provision for a period of years of a single authority directed from here to administer law and order from our point of view as the federal central body, but that they should not, even during that temporary period, lose sight of the necessity of giving to each local Parliament at least as much interest in looking after such things as petty theft and local administration through a police of their own, as our English county councils have. As the First Lord of the Admiralty has said, all that is done here by Standing Joint Committees. Surely what can be done by a Standing Joint Committee for a county or a borough in this country ought eventually to be entrusted to a Parliament in Ulster or a Parliament in the South? If the Government is not going to endeavour to let these two Parliaments feel that from the beginning they are to be encouraged gradually to develop their own responsibility in their own affairs, then this is not a Home Rule Bill at all.

In spite of the long discussion there is one point which has not yet been made. The Government have now accepted the principle of one authority to govern the police for a period of at least three years, after which the Royal Irish Constabulary are apparently to be disbanded and local police forces will take their place. I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he contemplates that the disbandment of the Royal Irish Constabulary in the two areas must take place at one and the same time. I see the force of what many hon. Members have said with regard to the necessity of giving to a subordinate Parliament, if and when it is fit to govern at all, the control of the police force in its own area I do not myself see why the North of Ireland should necessarily be deprived of having the control of its local police force, possibly ten or even twenty years from now, simply because the South was in a condition in which they could not possibly get control of their police force. I suggest to the Government that in considering this whole matter, as I understand they are going to do, they should consider the possibility that the two Parliaments should not necessarily receive power over their own police at the same time, but that when either one or the other becomes competent to administer a police force, and when the population is orderly and quiet, it should then receive from the Imperial Parliament control over its own local police force.

I understand my right hon. Friend the First Lord has said that he prefers not to have this Sub-section struck out now, but that he will consider it with a view to getting a single authority to govern the police. I think the question was one well worth the long discussion we have had, even in the interests of the Government themselves, but I do not think the controversy should be prolonged now, and, having regard to the undertakings of my right hon. Friend, I ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

It seems to me that the undertaking that we have given for the Government must cover not only this Subsection which proposes to set up a new governing body, but must also deal with the suggestion made earlier with regard to the termination of the existence of the present Royal Irish Constabulary and the bringing into existence of another body, and it must also deal with the point raised by the hon. Gentleman, who referred to the possible necessity for a dual police force such as there was in Canada during the early years of the Dominion. The undertaking also must deal with the point just raised with reference to the possibility that there may be justification for the transfer of the force in one part before there is the same justification to be found in the other part. We have got to provide for all those changes in the Bill, and try and cover those possible emergencies. That, I understand, to be the undertaking which has been given, and that undertaking I should do my best to carry out. With reference to what was mentioned by the hon. Member for Hanley (Mr. Seddon) as to being called on by the Chairman, I am extremely sorry, but I was not in the least conscious that I was contesting that position with anybody.

I was only trying to defend the right of a private Member when his name is called, and I did not mention it as a personal grievance.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move to leave out Sub-section (3).

If my Amendment be carried the result will be that the Postal Services and the Public Record Office of Ireland will be transferred under a consequential Amendment I have on Clause 10 to the Council of Ireland. In the Bill the Postal Services are a reserved service until the date of Irish union, and once the union Parliament is set up that service is immediately transferred to Irish control. Yesterday an Amendment was moved by one of the Belfast Members to reserve these services altogether and retain them under the control of the Imperial Parliament even after a United Parliament for Ireland had been set up. In answer to that Amendment the Minister without Portfolio (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) said that the Government would reconsider the question between now and Report, and that it might be possible that an Amendment would be proposed which would reserve the Postal Services permanently under the control of this Parliament. I make my proposal to transfer these services immediately to the Council of Ireland with two objects. The first is to strengthen the position of the Council of Ireland which at present seems to me to be almost a fatuous body. I have racked my brains to see how its powers could be strengthened, and I think that the Postal Services might without great risk be transferred at once to the Council of Ireland. My second object is to bring at once under Irish control a very big administrative public service. That appears to me to be one of the chief needs of this Bill. Somehow or other Irishmen must be brought into control of their own administration, and if service after service is reserved to this Parliament, and if Amendment after Amendment is accepted as many Amendments were accepted yesterday, still further restricting the activities of Irish administration, then the object of the Bill is frustrated and we might just as well abandon it altogether. If my proposal were accepted I do not believe the risk incurred would be very great. The service will be transferred not to the two Irish Parliaments, but to the Council of Ireland which is equally representative of both.

I must point out to the hon. Member that he is getting on rather wide ground. There is a proviso that upon identical Acts these services shall be transferred to the Council of Ireland. Therefore he is only entitled to make on this Amendment the further point as to whether with or without the request of the Parliaments they shall be transferred to the Council.

I was aware of that proviso, but my desire is to transfer the services at once. Yesterday it was implied in the speech of the Minister without Portfolio that between now and Report these services would be permanently retained under the control of the Imperial Parliament. What would be the risk of my proposal? I believe it will be very small in comparison with a far greater risk that unless we give these Irish institutions extensive powers at once we run the risk of making the Bill futile altogether. Yesterday the Government suggested it was quite possible that the postal services would for ever remain an Imperial service. What would that mean? Under the provisions of the Bill as they are at present, the railways are immediately transferred to the control of the Council. The Council will have the railways which would carry the mails, whilst the mails themselves would be retained under the control of the Imperial Parliament. If it is possible to transfer immediately and without identical acts the railway services to the Council it is equally possible to transfer at once without identical acts the postal services. Unless the postal services are immediately transferred to the Council or to one of the Irish self-governing institutions, Ireland will be faced with a multiplication of different civil services in which the largest body of public employés in Ireland, that is, those in the posal services, will be still under the control of the Imperial Parliament. Such a state of things would be wholly inefficient, and open to every kind of objection. There would probably be different conditions of service and of pay between those various Government civil services. I cannot imagine any arrangement that would induce to greater inefficiency than to have this large body of Civil Servants still paid and admin- istered by the Imperial Parliament. 'One of the criticisms that have time after time been made against our administration and our financial control in Ireland has been that we have imposed upon a poorer country conditions which are only applicable to a much richer country.

I believe that unless this service can be immediately transferred to the Council of Ireland you will have in existence a postal service paid at a much higher rate from the fact that it is an Imperial Service and with the conditions that would be applicable to a highly paid service in the United Kingdom, side by side with these other local services, which in the nature of things will be much less extravagantly paid. My proposal is to transfer this service at once to the Council of Ireland, and it seems to me that if that could be done it would be some evidence that we really intend that these Irish institutions shall have genuine powers of self-government. Let the Committee consider what is the present state of affairs. Sinn Feiners are making a very attractive appeal to moderate Nationalist opinion in Ireland. They say, "We offer you complete self-government and every opportunity of self-development." What is our answer to that appeal, and what counter-propaganda can we make? All that we are making under the Bill at present is to offer self-government that is so limited, and that daily is becoming more limited, that I do not believe it will appeal to any single Nationalist in the whole of Ireland. It is with that object in view, to make it clear to moderate Constitutional opinion in Ireland that we really intend that the self-government that we offer Ireland shall be real, that I ask the Government at once to reconsider the suggestion that they made yesterday and, instead of permanently retaining the postal services under the Imperial Parliament, to hand them over at once to the one unifying body in Ireland, the Council of Ireland.

This Amendment necessarily must cover the next three Amendments on the Paper, standing in the names of the hon. Member for Cromac (Mr. Lindsay) and the hon. Member for East Down (Mr. Reid), dealing with the same subject, but not necessarily the Amendment to leave out paragraph ( d ), so I will put the question down to the end of paragraph ( c ).

I do not think anyone from Ireland has asked that the postal service shall be transferred, and after all we who live in the country surely should be considered. The Post Office is essentially a department that comes into everybody's daily life, and its efficient conduct tends to everyone's happiness, while its inefficient conduct tends to make people miserable. I must say I am somewhat surprised at my hon. and gallant Friend who has moved the Amendment making this most unfederal proposition. Yesterday I referred to the fact that in the two Home Rule Bills for Scotland and Wales the postal service was most distinctly arranged to remain here, and I would ask my hon. and gallant Friend whether he is going seriously to suggest that a separate arrangement in this regard should be made in Ireland.

I cannot help feeling that the last speech to which we have listened makes the whole of this discussion rather unreal, for it amounted to this: Let us transfer to the Irish Council matters which really will not affect us, but here is a service which enters into our daily life, and therefore, for heaven s sake, do not let us trust that service to the Irish administration. I understand my hon. Friend has two objections to the Amendment, one of which is that this proposal is inconsistent with a well-thought out scheme of federalism, and the other is that this is a service which in its efficient organisation enters into the lives of everybody, and therefore he is very chary of putting it under a small administration. That rather brings us to the root of the matter. If the object of the Bill is not to set up an administration in Ireland which is going to administer, we had far better give up the Bill and go home. Those of us who have supported this Bill have supported it not in the least because we thought it was a well-thought-out scheme of federalism, but because we thought this was the only possible way of settling the Irish problem. The more the well-thought-out scheme of devolution has come into the picture, the further has receded any practical prospect of dealing with this matter with success in Ireland. If we really are to transfer our ideas on to a well-thought-out federal basis, the first thought that occurs to us is that Ireland is the last place in which to try the experiment.

I fancy, however, we must still suppose the Government mean this as a practical measure which is intended to work. First of all, the Government themselves have said that it is vitally important to make the Council a reality, because the Council is the one thing that in their picture stands for Irish unity. Therefore, they urge us, and they urge Irishmen, to vest in the Council any powers which the Council can properly exercise. If that is the object of the Government, as it is, what are the kind of services which you can most conveniently vest in the Council? Obviously, those which are not by natural convenience, reserved services, and those which, not being conveniently reserved, are services that will not have very much risk if you transfer them. I can well understand the difficulty, and I entirely support the Government in not transferring the police, but the kind of service, surely, which is safest to be transferred to the Council is the kind of service out of which it cannot make political capital, and, in regard to which, if the administration runs it badly, the whole condemnation for running it badly will come down on the head of the administration. My hon. Friend who has just spoken, said it would be intensely aggravating if the postal arrangements went wrong, and you did not get your post, but that would rest entirely with the Council if the service were transferred to the Council, and that is a thing which people in Ireland would insist on being worked properly, and if it were not worked properly, they would blame, not this Parliament, but the Council. I should have thought that if there was one service which could conveniently be transferred with safety, it was the postal service. I entirely agree that our object, if this Bill is to succeed, and is not to become a nightmare of duplicated and triplicated administration, is to have as few executive authorities as possible and, what is more, that we should try not to have one authority working in another authority's area, a service which will enter into almost every part of that area, and every practical relation of life Those are the most difficult of the services to exercise in what I may call—I do not say it offensively—foreign countries.

In regard to the question of railways, referred to by the Mover of the Amendment, I am in the recollection of the Committee that the great anxiety of the Committee when the Transport Bill was before this House was as to the perfectly vast powers which we were vesting in the Minister of Transport, and we have now vested in that Minister colossal powers. Therefore, I think my hon. and gallant Friend is justified in saying that if you have vested these very large powers in the Ministry of Transport and are going to transfer them to the Council, it is reasonable that you should also transfer the powers of the Post Office. I hope the Government will turn this matter over. I could not help thinking the speech of the Minister without Portfolio last night altered the whole position and that gradually we are drifting away from the purpose we had in our minds when we set out on the consideration of the Bill. I am very much afraid that if we do not keep that purpose in mind, we shall pass a Bill which will not only not satisfy anyone in Ireland, but will satisfy very few in this country, and will be almost impossible to work. Really, the Government must make up their minds which horse they are going to ride, and ride it to a finish.

I wish to support the Amendment, because it seems to me much of the opposition to it comes from an entire misapprehension of the facts. Surely if there is one thing which is controlled by Sinn Fein out and out, it is the Irish posts and telegraphs. Why shut our eyes to it, instead of looking things in the face? It is most extraordinary for Ministers to come here and protest that never, never will they hand over the control of the posts to Sinn Fein. A distinguished soldier with whom I was dining last night said that 70 per cent. of his own private letters were opened by Sinn Fein, and every one with "O.H.M.S." were opened, and a good many were stolen. I read with absolute amazement the speech of the right hon. Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) last night when he said:

"As we do now," when 70 per cent. of the private letters are held up for a week while the Sinn Fein censorship goes through them at its leisure! It is too preposterous for words. I appeal not so much to the Liberal party as to my own Unionist party. The Liberal party is the party of hypocrisy and the Unionist party is the party of brutality. I ask them to introduce a little brutality, and look facts in the face. That is why we brought forward our Amendment yesterday. That is why I support the Amendment to-day, because I want the Committee to regard facts as they are. The Post Office in Ireland is already in the hands of what may be regarded as the enemy, and it is a question, not of keeping it in the hands of the Imperial Government, but of trying to get it back from the Sinn Fein Government, and there are no means in the Bill of getting it back Therefore this talk of keeping it in Imperial hands is the purest hypocrisy, because it is now in the hands of aliens and enemies. If that is so, why not make sure that those who have the power shall have the responsibility? Already they have the power over the post, and we must make them responsible for it. The Council of Ireland may be a poor enough thing in many ways, but, at any rate, it is a body to which the posts and the telegraphs can be transferred, and transferred now. At any rate, there will be no longer the pretence when all the postal employés in Ireland recently went on strike—

Anyhow, there was no attempt whatever made, because it was impossible to discipline those who had gone on strike, and it was graciously conceded as a holiday.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman cannot be aware of the fact that the Postmaster-General, in response to a question from me, stated that these men had been disciplined and deprived of their day's pay.

I thank my hon. Friend for correcting me on that point. I must have been misinformed, but I certainly understood—and many Members of the House understood also—that no disciplinary measures had been taken against these men. Certainly there is a Sinn Fein censorship now, in many cases carried out by His Majesty's—so—called—postal employés, and no action is being taken against them, because it is utterly impossible to get evidence against them or convict them if found. Everyone knows that they open these letters, read them and extract facts which they think will be useful to the Sinn Fein Government, and then mark them as passed by the Sinn Fein censorship, and send them back to this country. And then hon. Members say we cannot have any interference with this Imperial service! To bring that forward as a serious argument is too preposterous for words. They have the power; let them have the responsibility. If they make a mess of it, let the blood be on their own heads.

Ulster, I have no doubt, will be able to run the postal service just as efficiently as it runs many other services. Let Ulster and Dublin run their own services, and they will then be forced again into some sensible union. Let us recognise once and for all that here you are up against, not a federal problem, but something entirely different, and that arguments applied to Scotland or Wales do not in any way apply to the conditions holding sway in Southern Ireland. From those reasons I have much pleasure in supporting the Amendment.

It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I say what I have to say in support of this Amendment instead of my Amendment as is stands on the Paper. The object of this Amendment is to delegate the control of the postal service direct to the Irish Council. My object was to delegate those powers direct to the local Parliaments. With great deference, I still think my method is the right one, but I do admit that probably the postal services are somewhat specially circumstanced, and that it would be possible, and perhaps it is more advisable, that they should be under the control of the Irish Council. May I say I agree with the accents of despair which came from the lips of some of my hon. Friends with regard to this Bill? It seems to me they started on the consideration of this Bill with the utmost desire to see it become the basis of real self-government for Ireland, and found the attitude of right hon. Members in charge not tending towards the creation of reality in this Bill, but rather towards making each decisive Clause as it comes up a farrago of niggling reservations. That is not the the way to make this Bill work. But if I am beginning to despair about this Bill, the right hon. Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson) seems to be in despair not only about this Bill, but about the whole world. May I remind the Committee of the words just quoted by my hon. and gallant Friend:

"Just fancy if we were at war and the Irish postal authorities proceeded to enter into arrangements entirely different from our own, so that we could not get our telegrams or posts through as we do now!"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd June, 1920, Col. 1949, Vol. 129.]

The right hon. Gentleman contemplates that Ireland and the Irish will be enemies of this country indefinitely, and therefore even his qualified support of the Bill is, if I may say so, rather a farce. From my point of view, I do not think there would be the slightest danger in giving control of the postal service to the Irish Council. What more suitable thing could you give them? What more suitable thing could you give them, which could and should be worked for Ireland as a whole, than the postal service? My hon. Friend said that those who will form part of the Irish Council, if it comes into existence, already control the postal service, and therefore they should have the responsibility. I gather they control it in an efficient manner now except as regards the time taken for delivery. I do not care whether it is the Council or the local Parliaments, but let us have reality somewhere in the machinery you offer to Ireland, and make a start by saying you are willing not to treat these instruments of self-government as if they were a number of school children, but really as those who have the interests of the Irish nation at heart, and really mean to do their best with this Bill when it reaches them as an Act, because we are bound to suppose that, whatever we may think of the future of this Bill and the spirit in which it is being carried through in this House.

I understood yesterday afternoon, when we were on the same subject of posts and telegraphs, that the Government undertook to reconsider this Clause, and we appear to be rather beating the air. I do not want to repeat what I said yesterday, but I feel rather bound to do so. In the distant future, and in the near future too, there must be no armed forces in Ireland other than the Imperial Forces, and, in order to keep our communications with them, every form of communication, such as submarine cables, wireless telegraphy and posts and telegraphs, must remain in Imperial hands. We must look to the future. It is only 108 years since we were at war with America. It is only 105 years since we were at war with France. We have to consider as far ahead, and I sincerely trust the Government will not let the posts and telegraphs, as well as any other communications, go out of their hands.

8.0 P.M.

I greatly appreciate the spirit which has animated the speeches of those hon. Members who have supported the Amendment. They are very anxious to make this Bill a reality. They are very anxious to confer upon the people of Ireland a real power of self-government and of administration, and they are also anxious to hasten the period at which Irish unity will be achieved. They consequently look about to see what powers, right from the first, may fitly devolve upon the Council of Ireland, and they think that the postal service, which cannot be conveniently sub-divided into two compartments, is a service which might from the first be devolved upon the Council of Ireland. May I point out to the hon. Member who moved this Amendment what the Bill actually does in this regard? The Bill reserves the postal service to the Imperial Parliament until the date of Irish union. It also provides that previous to the date of Irish union the two Parliaments may by identical Acts confer any one of these reserved powers upon the Council of Ireland. It is thus open to the two Parliaments, if they choose, to devolve these powers upon the Council. My right hon. Friend (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) yesterday gave a pledge to the effect that it should be competent to the two Parliaments, or any one Parliament, to decree Irish union by identical Acts without at the same time devolving the postal service upon the united Irish Parliament. Con- sequently the Bill provides the utmost latitude of chance to the popularly-elected representatives of the Irish people. They may deal with the postal service as they choose. My hon. Friend who moved this Amendment said: "If this be so, why do you not at once devolve the postal service upon the Council of Ireland?" That question may be addressed to the Government in respect to a great many other services, less contentious than this. Why not, it may be said, devolve upon this Central Body these other services? I would ask my hon. Friends to consider one difficulty to which it would appear they have not given sufficient attention. That is the very real difficulty of finance. If you are to devolve the postal service, or agriculture, or any other service upon the Council of Ireland, then that Council must be put in a position to finance that service. The Council must have a fund with which to run the service. It can only be financed by the votes of the two Parliaments, North and South, unless, indeed, you place the Council of Ireland upon the Consolidated Fund. It is quite clear that if Ireland is to have self-government in any sense the finance of the Council must be provided by the Parliaments. If the Council were charged with a very important social service, dependent upon the votes of the two Parliaments without consultation with those two Parliaments, it would expose the Council to an embarrassing position, and a possibility that the functioning of the service might be held up and paralysed at any moment by the refusal of supplies either by North or South.

In pursuance of the general idea underlying the matter, that is to say, that Ireland is to be given powers of self-government, and that no coercion is to be applied either to the North or South to accept a régime which may be distasteful—in pursuance of that general idea we came to the conclusion that it was a safer and a more convenient way to allow the two Parliaments this latitude, and to make the functioning of the council of Ireland dependent upon the co-ordinated action of the two Parliaments. I quite admit that the course which we have been compelled to adopt does present certain inconveniences until the period elapses, during which perhaps the service which it may be very desirable for the council to exercise is either divided between the North and South or is reserved, but I think the more you study the anatomy, and especially the finances of the Bill, the more clearly does it become apparent that it is the only practical course. Once you grant the general proposition that neither Parliament should be coerced this is a scheme to which you cannot dissent. For these reasons, while sympathising very deeply with the spirit which animates the speeches of the hon. Members who put forward this Amendment, I am afraid the Government cannot see their way to accept it.

My right hon. Friend who has just sat down made a point which I had intended to make, and which will appeal to some hon. Members, namely, that you cannot transfer services of this kind to one body and require two other bodies to vote the supplies upon which that service depends. To set up a proposition of that kind is to seek to create a perfectly impossible position. My hon. and gallant Friend put forward the most amazing argument that I have yet heard for the transfer of the postal service. He told us that 70 per cent. of the correspondence which passes daily through the postal service is tampered with, opened by Sinn Fein sympathisers in defiance of the Official Secrets' Act, and delayed for long periods in transit, and that, therefore, we ought to transfer the whole postal service to them.

I take it at that. "Recognise that this tampering is taking place," and then legalise it. In plain words, the law has been broken oyer 70 per cent. of Ireland in respect of this matter, make the thing legal which is illegal now. Let us see what is the logic of that. "We are assassinating policemen over 70 per cent. of Ireland." "Let us recognise it," says my hon. and gallant Friend, "and proclaim an amnesty to the assassins." That is his argument. He told us in the Amendment to which he spoke yesterday afternoon that he was deadly serious. I notice he did not make the same observation in regard to this Amendment. I presume, therefore, he has reverted to his original position as the privileged champion humorist to this House. My hon. Friend behind me took a somewhat different line of argument. He declared that he and his friends, to whatever extent they have supported this Bill, have not at all supported it because they believe it to be a well-thought-out federal scheme. I entirely agree. Just see where the inconsistency of this position comes in. My hon. Friend complains that this is not a well-thought-out federal scheme, and so he cannot give it his full assent. He therefore proposes to intro duce and stand by an Amendment which cuts clear across the principles and implications of federalism. There is no federal system in the entire world to-day that does not reserve the postal service to the central body—the very thing he proposes to divorce. He leaves himself open by what he proposes to a severe retort in that respect from the right hon. Gentleman in charge of this Bill.

But it is a great deal worse. He admits in fact that this proposal was definitely and specifically refused in respect of academic proposals put forward for Scotland and Wales in a similar matter. If that is so, if you remember that Scotland and Wales are one with you in sympathy and aim and you would not concede to them control of the Post Office, what is to be said to a proposal to give it to another country absolutely hostile, whose leaders have said they hate you as bitterly as their fathers did at Vinegar Hill. What is to be said for proposing to confer upon your enemies powers which you would not entrust to your friends? Surely an argument of that kind stands self-condemned. My hon. and gallant Friend called attention to a very serious matter, and that is the strategic value of the control of telegraphs. The trans-Atlantic cable comes into the South of Ireland. Recently we were at War and had America as one of our Allies. If this trans-Atlantic cable had been under the control of those hostile to us and hostile to America and we desired to communicate with America on a vital matter you would have had them tampering with your cables as they tamper with your letters, and it is proposed to expose us to that risk in a future war. I do not see how a proposal of that kind can be defended at all.

Then it is urged that the Irish people will blame you if the postal service does not work well, and that is supposed to be a good reason for changing a service which by common consent does work well. We enjoy now a postal service which, if Ireland were thrown upon her own resources, we could not have. It was put forward as another reason that just exactly the thing we should most dread, that is a diminution of the present postal service and an increase in rates, would happen if you put this power into the hands of the Irish Council of the two Irish Parliaments. It is not economically conducted to-day and it is not a paying proposition, and if you propose to effect economies you would have to dismiss an army of postmen and telegraph messengers, close up sub-offices, and turn away large numbers of staff, which means that entire communications with Ireland and with this country would be enormously vitiated.

One of the things that attracts a good type of man to the Irish postal service is that he knows the whole of the services of the three Kingdoms are open to him for purposes of promotion. The Postmaster of Belfast the other day, by virtue of his qualifications and special knowledge, was transferred to London, and made the director of the whole telegraph system over here. Is it reasonable to expect that postal servants in Ireland would be content to be excluded from chances of advancement in the service in Scotland, England and Wales? An hon. Member asked whether any appeal has been made from Ireland to put forward a proposal of this kind, and he received no answer. I am perfectly certain the Government have no such requisition, and that nobody who lives in Ireland and knows the conditions, who has had daily contact with the service, and who is conversant with the enormous advantages we enjoy to-day because it is a United Kingdom service could contemplate with anything but dismay such a proposal.

I notice that three of the matters touched upon in Sub-section (3) were not dealt with by my hon. Friend, and possibly it was an oversight. That, however, does not relieve me from the duty of pointing out what would be involved. No reference is made to the Public Record Office of Ireland. It is quite conceivable that my hon. Friend, not living in Ireland, does not realise how closely this touches some of us, and I have an Amendment on the Paper in respect of this matter. No argument was addressed to the proposal to transfer the designs for stamps, whether for post or revenue purposes, or to place the Post Office Savings Bank and the Trustee Savings Banks under the control of the Irish Council. When the investor in Ireland put his money into the Post Office Savings Bank, he knew he had behind him the security of the British Government, which is the finest in the world. With what attitude would he view the removal of that security, and the substitution for it of the security of a Parliament that would be in large degree a Sinn Fein Parliament in one area, with no respect for contracts, property, or rights. What investor would put his money into the savings bank under such conditions? Who would dream of setting up a trustee savings bank under conditions of that kind? My hon. Friend could not seriously propose to put the Irish people under such conditions. I know from his kindness of heart that he would not desire anything of the sort. I am sure that he put this proposal forward with the best intentions, but if he had realised all that flows from this Amendment, he would not desire to force it upon the Irish people, and subject them to the inconveniences which I have described.

Before I deal with the speech of the last speaker, I want to say two things about the speech of the President of the Board of Education. The right hon. Gentleman gave two reasons why the Government could not support this Amendment. Firstly, he said that if you gave way on this point there would be many requests for the transfer of different services to the Irish Council. I am not much impressed with the argument that we should not do a thing that is right because it may lead him to do something that is wrong, and you must treat a question of this kind upon its merits.

The right hon. Gentleman's second argument was more serious. It was that the Council of Ireland has no money, and the supply must be voted by the two Parliaments of Southern and Northern Ireland. First of all, the postal service should be a self-supporting service. The amount charged for telegrams, parcels, and letters should pay the costs of those services, and, if it does not, the rate should be raised until it does. Therefore, no money ought to be required to be voted. Assume that it is an unremunerative service; assume that it is dependent on a vote from the Irish Parliaments. Surely the position is this, either the money is voted or it is not. If the Southern Irish Parliament does not choose to vote the money required for the postal services, Southern Ireland will not get her letters, telegrams, and parcels. My hon. Friend who has just spoken spoke of war risks, and said we ran serious risks through transferring, the postal service to Ireland, as we might have a hostile Ireland. I would venture to remind him that by the Bill the postal service is transferred to the United Parliament, so that the danger, if any, already exists. I want to ask the Minister-without Portfolio, whose speech last night I followed very closely, the exact, extent of the pledge which he gave. Was; that under no circumstances would the postal service be transferred to a single Parliament for Ireland?

(Minister without Portfolio) : No. The pledge was not that under no circumstances should it be transferred. It was that we would consider the point raised by the right hon. Member for Duncairn, who said that, if the postal service were automatically transferred by the Bill to Ireland on the union of the two Parliaments, the mere fact that that could occur might stand in the way of union. As I did not want any automatic stop to the union, I gave an undertaking that we would bring in words so as to prevent automatic transfer, and leave it that, if one Parliament objected, then it should not take place. It could only take place by consent, and not automatically.

Then, as I understand the matter, when the Irish union takes-place, if ever it does, this Parliament, here will have to decide the question, that is, if there is to be no automatic: transfer to the United Parliament?

Not necessarily. Words might be put into the Bill to enable it to be done on the joint, request, and that would not be automatic. The objection was taken that the mere fact of its being automatic might prove a bar to union. But it might be done with the consent of the two Parliaments, and on those lines I have undertaken to see if any words can be introduced.

Then I take it that if the two Parliaments in Ireland cannot agree to have the postal service, it will remain Imperial without further action?

I do not think I would be in order if I went back on the clause we discussed last night. I am content to stand by the report of what I actually said on that occasion. My hon. Friend has not quoted all that I said. I have tried to repeat to-day what I did say. As the Bill stands now the postal service goes over automatically. But objection was taken to that, and I said that, if that was likely to be a bar to union, then I would remove that bar and try and find some way which would prevent the bar operating.

Then the matter stands like this. The service is not to go over automatically to a united Parliament when established, but that Parliament will have a right to call for it. I cannot conceive any service that more clearly ought to be given to a single Parliament when established. The First Lord of the Admiralty spoke about a federal scheme. I see no federal scheme in the Bill. It is a scheme for the self-government of Ireland which must conflict on many points with a federal scheme. A great many of us have supported this Bill, and are doing so with growing mistrust and reluctance, because we are hoping for a final settlement of the Irish question. We conceive that that settlement can only take place by the creation of a single legislature for Ireland, and anything that militates against that scheme appears to me to be a waste of time. If a simple service which must be a matter of Dominion status—if a simple service like the Post Office is not to be handed over I cannot see where the Bill is leading us to. We have to face facts if this Bill is to pass. I would ask my hon. Friends below me to consider this point: either the Bill ought not to pass or it ought to pass. If they say the state of Ireland is so bad that no Bill is possible, then by all means withdraw it and rule Ireland as you like. But if you mean to go on with the Bill, if it is intended to lead up to something which has a Dominion status, you ought not to take away a service like the Post Office. One cannot imagine any Dominion in which the Post Office is controlled from outside. I confess it makes some of us hesitate who are already faced with some difficulty in supporting the Government. I do not believe that any half-measure will be of use. The only chance of enlisting such opinion as there may be in favour of moderation is to get in the terms of the Bill the real constitution which may eventually arise, and all these restrictions and reservations which cut at the root of the main principle on which the Bill is supposed to be built appear to me most mischievous. I am not sure that the Government are not falling between two stools. I do not think they have very much support for their Bill; the large proportion of the voting in its favour is automatic. The few people who support it do so quite sincerely and, up to the present, hopefully, in the expectation that it will lead to something that will settle the Irish question. I hope that even now we may have something rather different from the half measure which the Minister without Portfolio has announced. That will please nobody. It will not please my hon. Friends who want a permanent Imperial Postal Service, and it certainly will not please me. The Government have to choose between withdrawing their Bill or making it a workable scheme.

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), to leave out paragraph ( d ).

The Committee will see that one of the services to be reserved is the Public Record Office in Ireland. I have had consultations with representatives of the legal profession in the North of Ireland on this and other legal questions dealt with in the Bill, and they have come to the conclusion that, while they would like, if possible, to have those documents and archives which deal with the North of Ireland kept separate from those which deal with the South, they realise that that would be, if not impossible, at any rate, very difficult. While, however, they are prepared to allow those records which refer to transactions which have taken place in the past to remain in the Public Record Office in Dublin, they feel that they ought to have the right to set up their own Record Office in the North which will deal with transactions and matters arising after the passing of the Act. I think that is a very reasonable proposition, when it is remembered that, in other matters connected with law, a completely separate justiciary is going to be set up in the North.

It can be changed, if you like, but at any rate, a separate justiciary is going to be set up in the North, and it is, therefore, felt to be only reasonable that they should have their own Record Office as regards future transactions.

I do not quite understand what my hon. and gallant Friend means by future transactions. The position of affairs as regards the Irish Record Office is that it was established by an Act of 1867, and that all public documents go there for custody after a period of 20 years. If my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion is that the records of the Courts in Ulster, beginning from the time of the passing of the Bill, should go there, I would be quite willing to accept it, but the difficulty is this: The cases that go to the Public Record Office, and would go there whether the whole of Ireland were one unit or separate units, are necessarily cases going back 20 years. The difficulty would be that there are two classes of documents that would be sent to the Public Record Office. In the one case there are documents relating to suits in the King's Bench and in the Court of Chancery, and in the other there are Probates of wills all over Ireland. If my hon. and gallant Friend will be satisfied to take the probates of the last 20 years, we can easily trace them, because upon each probate the abode of the deceased person appears, and therefore it would be quite easy to assign to the Ulster Record Office the probates which have been granted in respect of deceased persons from Ulster. It would be impossible, however, to decide to which office the pleadings in the Courts would belong. We should be prepared to take an Amendment that the Record Office should get all the intervening transactions which arise under the new Courts that are to be set up in Ulster, as regards both probate and litigation, but the first lodgment of the documents relating to litigation would take place 20 years hence. They remain in the custody of the High Court for a period of 20 years. They are then regarded as non-effective suits, because, after all, even for legal purposes, we can hardly carry on a suit longer than 20 years. At any rate, a few terminate during that period. In the case of the remainder, the documents remain in the custody of the High Court for 20 years, and are then transmitted to the Public Record Office. If a Public Record Office be established for Ulster, the first of those documents it will get will be the records of cases commenced now or next year, which, 20 years hence, will go to the Public Record Office, and we will also give every facility for the purpose of transferring the probates that have come forward during the last 20 years; but really the expense of trying to decide as regards pleadings would be far greater than the inconvenience which would be experienced by litigants and others, because it would only be necessary to apply to Dublin for a certified copy. If my hon. and gallant Friend would withdraw, his Amendment, I would be very glad to frame a Clause that will carry out my suggestion.

There is a second Amendment down in my name—to add, at the end of paragraph ( d ) the words

I meant, not to move the first Amendment to leave out paragraph ( d ), but to move this second one. After what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has just said, however, I would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment I have moved, and I do not propose to move the second one.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), after paragraph ( d ), to insert:

made up of£1 notes. We have banks in Belfast, in Dublin, and in Cork issuing notes for circulation over Ireland. Under these circumstances, where these notes are freely passing over the whole country, it would be extremely inconvenient to have two Parliaments making different regulations with regard to the issue of notes. We therefore propose that this matter should be excluded from the cognisance of these Parliaments, and only come to be dealt with at the date of Irish union, when there will be one Parliament to deal with a matter which affects the whole of Ireland. As regards bank licences, it is a small branch of the same matter, because a bank that issues notes must obtain a licence, so that the two matters go together. It is undoubtedly a matter in which the banks take a great interest, and which affects them very much. It is also supported by the commercial community, and the Chambers of Commerce strongly recommend that banking matters should be reserved matters until the date of Irish union. With regard to negotiable instruments, although a bank note may be a negotiable instrument, I do not think it is quite clear that it might not be open to an Irish Parliament to make some regulations regarding the powers of banks. The matter appears to me to be rather different from the point which was dealt with before, and it would be more satisfactory if now, when the Bill is on the stocks, the matter were made absolutely clear and not open to any ambiguity.

If this Amendment be required at all, which I very much doubt, to carry out the purpose of the proposer, I think it is in the wrong place. We have already excepted negotiable instruments from the power of the Irish Parliament. My hon. Friend now proposes that there should be re served until Irish union powers with regard to bank notes, which are negotiable instruments. A bank note is a promise to pay to the bearer, and it is a negotiable instrument, and we have already excepted negotiable instruments. There would be a contradiction between the two parts of the Bill if I were to accept the Amendment as it now stands; but when the Government accepted the Amendment in regard to negotiable instruments, it meant to carry out the intention of the mover of that Amendment, that is to say, that negotiable instruments should not be subject to the local Parliaments, and if any words are wanted, the proper place, I think, would be along with negotiable instruments. I will consider between now and Report whether anything else is wanted to cover the intentions of the mover of the Amendment.

I feel the force of a great deal of what my right hon. Friend has said, and I have no objection to withdrawing the Amendment on the footing that some words are put in Clause 4 if necessary. But I want to urge very strongly that, though bank notes are negotiable instruments, there is a difference. There may be some question as to whether the words cover some Act dealing with the powers of a bank to issue negotiable instruments, and that is what I want to safeguard, and if my right hon. Friend will take care to cover that point, I shall ask leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I beg to move, in Subsection (3), to leave out the words actually to transfer a service which it is not within their competence to deal with at all. I will ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider how it is, at any rate, that in this proviso you have the word "transfer" used, whereas in Clause 10, where they are dealing with powers over which they have themselves control, they are merely given power to delegate those powers which they themselves possess to the Council. It is really an extraordinary position that you are giving to these subordinate Parliaments the power to deal with something by their own act which is reserved under the Bill to the control of the Imperial Parliament. I think we need only consider one further provision of the Bill to illustrate my point. That is another service which is not what I will call a prohibited service under Clause 4, and yet is not a reserved service under Clause 9, that is, Customs and Excise. Customs and Excise is not prohibited under Clause 4, but is not given to either Irish Parliament, and it is not reserved under Clause 9. You do not propose to give the Northern or the Southern Parliament the power to transfer, by identical Acts, Customs and Excise from the Imperial Parliament to themselves or to the Council, and it seems very illogical that you should give them another service, namely, the Post Office, and empower them by their own identical Acts to transfer it from the Imperial Parliament to the Council, if they so desire. The question of the transfer of the Post Office should be dealt with in the same way as the eventual possible transfer of Customs and Excise is dealt with in Clause 34, namely: would be very undesirable to give it to the Council in any case for many reasons, not the least important being that in this Council you will have, so far as I can make out, nobody in the shape of a Minister responsible to Parliament for a service of this kind. That applies to different matters in connection with the Council. Who is to answer for them? The Council is not a body elected by the people direct, and it may have all sorts of questions in regard to the Post Office on which the Minister should be interrogated, and yet he will not be able to answer, because a particular question in regard to the Department for which he is responsible will be within the powers of this Council.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what is an identical Act? A great deal depends upon various services being transferred and delegated to the Council of Ireland by identical Acts of both Parliaments. Does that means that these Acts have to be passed at the same time? Have both Parliaments to pass the identical Acts during the same Session, or will it do if one Parliament passes an Act in one Session and the other Parliament passes an Act in the next Session, or if one Parliament passes an Act one year and the other one the next year? In regard to the actual substance of the Act, can the right hon. Gentleman say how far they have to be similar to be identical? They cannot be exactly word for word, because certain matters will relate to the Southern Parliament and others to the Northern Parliament. It is rather apposite in order to get rid of conception we should know what identical Acts amount to. In regard to the proviso with which my Amendment deals we regard it as a very important point, and I hope the Government will be able to give a satisfactory explanation, how it is and by what reason it has been arrived at that you are giving to subordinate Parliaments the power by their own Acts to transfer something which does not belong to them from the Imperial Parliament to another body.

This Amendment has been supported by my hon. and gallant Friend on various grounds, but his objection to the way in which we propose to deal with the Post Office is really the underlying objection to the Clause. I do not propose to re- argue the case of the Post Office which has already taken up a considerable part of our Debate. He asks me two specific questions. He asks why in Clause 10 the word "delegate" is used, whereas in Clause 9 the word "transfer" is used, and why in Clause 10 these powers which belong to the Parliaments should be delegated and why in Clause 9 powers which, he said, do not belong to the Parliaments at all should be transferred by the Parliaments to the Council. Under Clause 10 these powers which may be delegated are already vested in the Parliaments, and it seems to me a perfectly proper phrase to use that Parliament, having certain powers, shall be empowered to "delegate" those powers to the Council. The hon. and gallant Member asks, if that is so, why under Clause 9 are powers which do not belong to the Parliaments to be transferred to the Council. Is he right? They do belong to the Parliaments, because they are only reserved subject to this very power of transfer. What Clause 9 does is this. It reserves the Post Office, subject to the right of transfer by identical Acts which is given to the two Parliaments.

Is there any distinction in regard to powers which the Parliaments can themselves get back from the Council? Does the Bill provide that both with regard to these matters which they delegate and matters which they transfer they can get them back?

My hon. and gallant Friend shows how excellent is the rule of this House that we cannot discuss a future Amendment before we reach it. He forgets where this point arises and for the moment so do I. We had better leave it until we get to the place.

Oh, no. I will be perfectly fair. The hon. and gallant Member asks what is an identical Act? I am not prepared to give a legal definition on this point, but we all realise that two Acts passed by the two Parliaments must differ in their headings, their titles, or even in their details. By identical Acts is meant Acts which are in substance and intention and words practically the same.

If time is of the essence of the contract, yes. One can quite understand that if such and such a thing was to be done in a limited period, and the periods in the two Acts differed, you could not say that they were identical Acts, but because one passed on the 31st March and the other on the 1st April it would not necessarily mean that they were not identical Acts. The reason for the Clause is this. I quite agree with the hon. and gallant Member for Durham (Major Hills) that it is highly desirable that the Members of these two Parliaments should get as much administrative experience at as early a date as possible. That applies equally to the Council. We have allowed the Parliaments, not compelled them, if they agree, not if they disagree, to transfer powers with regard to the Post Office to the Council. In the Acts that constitute the transfer all necessary provisions can be inserted by the Parliaments themselves. It is highly desirable that upon those Parliaments should be put the responsibility, as well as the opportunity, of constituting the necessary measures for the first stages of unity, which they can do by the voluntary transfer to the Council of great administrative services like the Post Office. In my judgment, it would be a very retrograde step to accept an Amendment which would prevent the Parliaments, even if they wished, from transferring these powers to the Council, and, therefore, I cannot accept the Amendment.

I should have thought that my right, hon. Friend would have been in a position to state now a great deal more about the conditions of this postal service than he has just done, because yesterday on Clause 4 he undertook as I understood, on an Amendment moved by one of my colleagues, to consider sympathetically the inclusion in Clause 4 of the postal service. I think he used a phrase about transferring these powers by identical Acts, and I got up and said that it filled me with alarm, as I thought it was quite inconsistent with the promise which he was giving us, and he told us that this Clause which we are now on would require some alteration with a view to strengthening. As an old habitué of these premises I fear that we are making a great mistake in allowing these questions to be put off from day to day. We get these sorts of semi-promises made in the most enticing and winning manner which I always distrust. I would much prefer a good blunt negative. I never trust a real politician. He would do anything to get the Bill through for the moment, and I am astonished that my right hon. Friend has not told us what he has determined to do about this. He has had the whole day to consider it, and ought to have been in a position to tell us, but he is in an entirely different humour this evening, for what reason I do not know. I do not know whether anybody has been censuring him for what he said yesterday, or what has been taking place behind the scenes, because now he says that this is not an arguable question. It is here in the Bill. By identical Acts you can transfer the whole of this, and he says then that there is no question if the two Parliaments agree that this ought to be done.

I differ from him entirely. There is a British question and a British question of a very serious character. I do not think it practicable for these two Irish Houses to do it. Postal service includes telegraphic and telephonic services as well as what is usually known as postal service, and the right hon. Gentleman takes it as a matter of course, as almost beyond argument, that where the British Government have entered into an arrangement over the whole world, in the postal union, to which almost all civilised States belong, in reference to postal service, and have entered into contracts which bind the whole "United Kingdom, without one word from the British Government you can annul the whole of these by passing identical Acts in subordinate Parliaments in Ireland. It requires the audacity of my right hon. Friend to put that solemnly before the Committee. The curious part of the whole of these discussions is that Ministers seem to think that there is nothing but an Irish view of the matter. If you could only stop these people in Ireland fighting like demons for conciliation and hating each other for the love of God, all would he well, and let us do it at any cost. Poor old Great Britain! Wretched country compared with Ireland! And as for the Empire, what does it matter? Telephonic and telegraphic and postal communication throughout the Empire is a small thing as compared with a telegram from Ulster to Dublin. How are you going to work it out? When they pass these identical Acts what are they then to do? When they have got the postal powers into their own hands are they to begin then to enter into communication with America so as to establish postal relations with them? Are they to begin to enter into negotiations with Germany, France, Russia? I suppose we shall have this gentleman who is over now teaching us that we ought to have Soviet government in communication with the Irish Government before long. That is a pleasant outlook! But the question is how are you going to do it? Only yesterday we said in this Committee that Ireland was not to have any separate trade or commerce and was not to appoint an agent for trade or commerce. Now we are asked to allow her to negotiate with the Postal Union. Through whom? Through what department? I think it is fatal for Ireland.

I represent a great business community, and I can imagine what they would think if you said to them that all these contracts which had been entered into with the Postal Union and with all the great countries are at an end and they must wait and carry on business with these various countries throughout the world until a new arrangement has been made by the great Parliaments of Ireland. I can conceive nothing more absurd. The truth is that this is a matter of sentiment. My right hon. Friend (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) may be one of those who think that sentiment is much better than business. We do not think so in Belfast. What we think of is business, and for my part I look upon this proviso as absolutely unworkable. The only hope I have in this matter is, that as my hon. Friend said the Government will not give way, that the Northern Parliament of Ireland will be adamant on the subject, and that this proposal, even though it be in the Bill, will never be passed into law. After all, this is a question of the whole postal service. It is a question that goes to the root of the unity of any nation. Nothing is a greater badge of separation than a different postal service, for the reason that it brings you into separate contact with what I may call the outside world. After what took place in the discussion yesterday, I thought my right hon. Friend (Sir L. Worthington-Evans) would have accepted the Amendment. I suppose something has happened in the meantime. What it is I do not know, and I do not expect my hon. Friend to tell me.

This I can understand. Nothing has happened except that he has had a good sleep, and has forgotten his promise. That very often happens. On Clause 4 yesterday he gave us a sort of promise, but now I understand him to say that there is nothing in it. He got the Clause through, and thought "What fools they are below the gangway if they think I am going to do anything." We are not going to be treated in that way. We expect pledges and promises to be kept.

I have the reference here to what I said, and I will read it:

"It was in order to provide that union can take place if the two Parliaments desire it without necessarily bringing in the Post Office. I think my right hon. and learned Friend is right as the Clause now is, but it is upon those lines that we propose to consider whether something should not be brought in before the Report stage."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd June, 1920, Col. 1954, Vol. 129.]

That is really what I said. I have broken no pledge, and there is no pledge that I gave that I am not prepared to fulfil. The pledge was that it would be considered before the Report stage, and it shall be considered before the Report stage. How then can my right hon. Friend suggest that I have broken a pledge?

I am not put off by that kind of talk. What I am complaining of is that my right hon. Friend treated this Amendment as if there was nothing in it. Why did he not say that he had undertaken to consider the whole question before the Report stage? On the contrary, he did not accept the Amendment, and apparently he did not consider it. I distinctly understood yesterday that he had given an undertaking. I saw to-day that he was weakening, and I wanted to know what was the reason for the change. I say, at any rate, that the whole thing is impracticable. It means disintegration; it means separation, and therefore we look upon it as a very serious matter. We have put for- ward this Amendment seriously in order that we might understand what is the policy of the Government upon it. If my right hon. Friend has said that the whole matter is going to be considered among other matters that would be another question. But I feel so strongly upon this Amendment that I would go myself into the Lobby against it on a Division because it is a matter which we consider essential, not only with regard to this country but with regard to Ireland. Wherever there is a federal constitution the postal service should be looked upon as an Imperial matter as distinguished from a local matter. Nothing else is of any use, and so far as we are concerned we will do all we can to prevent ourselves from being put under such a system as would separate us from the general postal arrangements of the Empire.

There is no doubt a difference of opinion between the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) and my right hon. Friend (Sir L. Worthington-Evans), and therefore I venture to put forward again a suggestion which I made some years ago when we were discussing what is now the Home Rule Act. We had a very long discussion then on this question of the postal service. Of course, it is a very important question, especially for those who live in Ireland, whether Ireland should have the same postal service, the same stamps, the same letter weights and other regulations or should have something quite different from the United Kingdom. The right hon. Gentleman who is in charge of the Bill has put forward his plan of dealing with this business, but, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) has pointed out, it is a question that goes to the roots of unity; it is an Imperial question. On that occasion I made a suggestion which received a certain amount of approbation in some quarters though not in others. It was that we might retain the same postal service with the same value for the penny or twopenny postage stamp which would carry the same weights, but that Ireland should have the right to have her own separate postage stamps as distinct from England.

I must point out to the Committee that we have had two discussions on the question of the postal service. One was on a previous Amendment, and we have this other discussion to-day. This Amendment does not raise the whole question of the postal service. The only question now is whether there should be a transfer of this service to the Council of Ireland. I must therefore ask the Committee to confine the discussion now to that question of the transfer to the Irish Council.

This question is not simply an Irish question. Ireland is the terminus of Transatlantic cables.

The hon. Gentleman is proceeding to discuss general principles, which I have asked the Committee not to do.

Speaking as a Scotsman, I begin to realise the possibilities if this service is transferred to the Irish Council once the two Parliaments agree. One has some difficulty in reconciling with the Bill the wish of the Government that the two Parliaments should agree. The Government desire the North Parliament and South Parliament at some date to come together, but with this provision they introduce the interest of a third party. It seems to me that it is in the Government's own interest to accept the Amendment.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 120; Noes, 40.

Division No. 125.]

AYES.

[9.24 p.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John

Rae, H. Norman

Armitage, Robert

Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Baird, John Lawrence

Gregory, Holman

Raffan, Peter Wilson

Baldwin, Stanley

Greig, Colonel James William

Ramsden, G. T.

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E.

Rankin, Captain James S.

Barlow, Sir Montague

Hailwood, Augustine

Raw. Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Barnston, Major Harry

Hamilton, Major C. G. C.

Remer, J. R.

Barrie, Hugh Thom. (Lon'derry, N.)

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Renwick, George

Boles, Lieut.-Colonel D. F.

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Hilder, Lieut.-Colonel Frank

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Burdon, Colonel Rowland

Hills, Major John Waller

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Butcher, Sir John George

Hinds, John

Seager, Sir William

Campbell, J. D. G.

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Seely, Major-General Rt. Hon. John

Carr, W. Theodore

Inskip, Thomas Walker H.

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin

James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert

Stanley, Major H. G. (Preston)

Chadwick, R. Burton

Jephcott, A. R.

Stevens, Marshall

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)

Sturrock, J. Leng

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke)

Sugden, W. H.

Cobb, Sir Cyril

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Sutherland, Sir William

Cohen, Major J. Brunel

Lewis, T. A. (Glamorgan, Pontyp'd)

Taylor, J.

Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely)

Lloyd, George Butler

Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

Cope, Major Wm.

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Courthope, Major George L.

Lort-Williams, J.

Turton, E. R.

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid.)

Macquisten, F. A.

Vickers, Douglas

Davies, Major D. (Montgomery)

Mallalieu, F. W.

Waddington, R.

Dawes, Commander

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Matthews, David

White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Edge, Captain William

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Censett)

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Murray, C. D. (Edinburgh)

Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Edwards, John H. (Glam., Neath)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury)

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Neal, Arthur

Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.)

Fell, Sir Arthur

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G.

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbridge)

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Perkins, Walter Frank

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Perring, William George

Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.

Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H (Norwich)

Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C.

Pratt, John William

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Prescott, Major W. H.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Purchase, H. G.

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. James Parker.

NOES.

Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S.

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Donald, Thompson

Allen, Lieut.-Colonel William James

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Conway, Sir W. Martin

Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot

Atkey, A. R.

Cory, Sir C. J. (Cornwall, St. Ives)

Gould, James C.

Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

Craig, Capt. C. C. (Antrim, South)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Benn, Com. Ian H. (Greenwich)

Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.

Hanna, George Boyle

Bruton, Sir James

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Jesson, C.

Kerr-Smiley, Major Peter Kerr

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Royden, Sir Thomas

Lindsay, William Arthur

Nall, Major Joseph

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Newman, Colonel J. R. P. (Finchley)

Stanton, Charles B.

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Nield, Sir Herbert

Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull)

Lynn, R. J.

Oman, Charles William C.

Whitla, Sir William

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

Moles, Thomas

Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—

Major O'Neill and Mr. Kidd.

I beg to move, in Subsection (4), to leave out the words, "general subject matter of the Acts relating to land purchase in Ireland," and to insert instead thereof the words, "jurisdiction of the Irish Land Commission."

The object of this Amendment is to make quite certain that all matters connected with land purchase are reserved matters under the Bill. The Sub-section says, "general subject matter of the Acts." All questions connected with land purchase are now, and I speak subject to correction by the Attorney-General for Ireland, under the jurisdiction of the Irish Land Commission, and that being so, I move this Amendment to make the point clear.

There is no difference on the principle of the enactment between my hon. Friend and the Government. Our intention is to make the words as wide as possible in relation to land purchase, and I am informed by those who have considered this matter very carefully that the words of the Sub-section do so. I should be very glad indeed to have the matter further considered, and if there are any words wider than the words used in the Sub-section I shall be very glad to adopt them.

After the promise made by my right hon. and learned Friend, it is quite right that the Amendment should be withdrawn, but may I suggest that the words which are here are really very extraordinary words in an Act of Parliament. We have the words, "the general subject matter of the Acts relating to land purchase in Ireland shall be a reserved matter." What is the "general subject matter," and what is the particular subject matter? I do not know. I have been said to be a lawyer. I have always admitted I never knew any law, but certainly even bringing to bear what I always try to do rather than my knowledge of law, that is common sense, I really do not know what the "general subject matter of the Act" is. Just fancy asking a. judge to exercise the "general subject matter" of Acts of Parliament. I hope, whatever my right hon. and learned Friend does, he will put those words out.

I am not enamoured of the words, but I am still less enamoured of the Amendment. The intention is perfectly clear on the part of the Government that all matters relating to land purchase should be reserved.

As the Prime Minister happens to be on the Government Bench, may I repeat a question which I put to hm at Question Time to-day, and in regard to which, perhaps, very naturally, he had not a great deal of information. It is in regard to the Irish Land Purchase Bill which has been promised for early introduction into this House. I think I am right in saying that on every previous occasion when a Home Rule Bill has been before the House it has been accompanied by an Act to carry out land purchase in Ireland. It is more than ever necessary now, when as we know the great bulk of the land has been dealt with under the old Acts, that this new Land Purchase Bill which has been promised should be brought in without delay, and should be carried concurrently as far as possible with this Bill as part and parcel of the settlement, if this is to be a settlement of the Irish question. If the Prime Minister could say a word now it would be a very great encouragement to the farmers and landlords and all those in Ireland whose interests are bound up with the solution of this great question of Irish land purchase.

That matter was raised at Question Time to-day, and does not really arise on the Amendment.

The question raised here is whether or not the principle of land purchase should be reserved, and the Prime Minister has already promised that it is to be dealt with immediately and concurrently with the passage of this Bill.

I do not want to transgress your ruling, Sir, and it is only with the permission of the Committee that I may speak. The statement which I made when I first indicated the outlines of the Home Rule Bill—that we proposed to introduce a Bill—the Government stand by, and we shall certainly introduce, before this Bill leaves the House, a Bill of that character.

We have undertaken an obligation. We realise the apprehensions of those who would be left, and we are prepared to meet them. We shall stand by that undertaking.

It is very nice to hear the Prime Minister again, and I am very pleased I came back to have the pleasure of listening to him. He says he is going to introduce a Bill, but that does not go very far. It is perfectly easy to introduce a Bill by going behind the Chair. The Bill appears on the Order Paper and nothing further takes place. Is that what the Prime Minister means? Does he mean he is going to introduce it, or does he mean that he is going to take steps to see that the Bill is passed?

It is generally believed that the Bill will be introduced in another place and passed there, and then come down to us

Amendment negatived.

I beg to move, in Sub-section (4) ( b ), after the word "Commission," to insert the words "and the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland."

The object of this and the following Amendment is in connection with certain powers as to land annuities. The land purchase annuities are transferred to the Northern and Southern Parliaments in respect of purchased holdings in the Northern and Southern areas. The object of the Amendment is to give the various Parliaments the powers possessed by the Commissioners of Public Works and also the powers of the Irish Land Commission in respect of the collection and recovery of purchase annuities. Before 1881 land purchase was carried out through the Commissioners of Public Works, and since that time, through the Land Commission. It is therefore proposed to give the various Parliaments all the powers for the purpose of collecting annuities which are now vested in the Commissioners of Public Works in respect of old land purchase.

I gather that this is an important matter, because a large number of people have invested in these annuities, and I should like to know what would happen if the Southern Parliament of Ireland does not collect them?

I think my right hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. There has been no investment in these annuities. At present they are payable to the British Government, and what is proposed to do is to transfer the annuities representing land purchase in the South to the Southern Parliament and to transfer to the Parliament of the North the annuities representing purchase in the North, and if there is no collection made in the South, so much the worse for the South.

As I understand it, people have invested in Irish Land Stock, which is guaranteed and secured on the Consolidated Fund, therefore I was perhaps wrong in saying it would affect the investors in this stock, but it would affect the taxpayer.

Supposing the Southern Parliament did not collect this revenue, somebody has got to pay it, as it is charged on the Consolidated Fund, and it will then have to come out of the pockets of the English taxpayer.

It could not possibly affect anybody except the Southern Parliament, because they are liable to the British Exchequer in respect of any liability to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, and if they do not collect the annuities they have so much less revenue to expend.

As I understood the position as regards these annuities, up to this, it was this, that these annuities are being given as a free gift to the Southern and Northern Parliaments, and I think, therefore, my right hon. Friend is right in saying that there is something that is put upon the taxpayers of this country, because, of course, the interest on the stock which was created to pay the purchase price of the land has still to be paid, and it will not be paid out of the collection of the annuities, but out of taxes put upon the community in general in Great Britain and Ireland, and I think that this is one of these generous steps which have been taken by the Government which deserve some recognition. We are very grateful for this. It is a free gift at present of about £3,000,000 a year to the Southern Parliament, for which I have never heard the slightest expression of thanks. In fact, I am not sure it is not looked upon as some sort of tyrannical action of the Government in shying it at their heads It is also a free gift of something like £500,000 or £600,000 a year, as well as I remember the figures, to the Northern Parliament. At all events, I express my gratitude, and I think it is well that it should be understood, when we see day by day attempts made to ridicule this Bill as if it was doing nothing for Ireland, that here in this one section you have very nearly £4,000,000 a year given away by this country to relieve the people in Ireland from their taxation there, and more generous conduct was never meted out by one country to another.

I am very glad now that I raised the point, because it has been brought out that the taxpayers of this country are going to pay out of their own pockets nearly £4,000,000 in order to give to Ireland a Bill which not a single person in Ireland, except my hon. Friend's from Ulster, wants. Is my right hon. and learned Friend quite sure the taxpayer knows he is being so generous?

I did not know it. I am not sure I can call myself an enthusiastic supporter of the Bill, but what enthusiasm I have is not enhanced by the fact that I have to put my hand in my pocket to pay for it, and I am inclined to think that when the taxpayer knows that all this beautiful arrangement is going to cost him a sum varying from £3,500,000 to £4000,000, his enthusiasm for the Bill will a little wane, especially if he has got to pay by additional taxation for this precious gift.

Amendment agreed to.

I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section 4 ( b ), to insert the words

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I desire to ask a question, to which I hope the Government will be able to give a satisfactory answer. In this Clause the powers and duties of the Congested Districts Board, except in certain particulars, are not reserved. When I was in Ireland with the late Mr. George Wyndham, very often in the days gone by I saw something of the work of the Congested Districts Board and the wonderful work done by their inspectors and officials, and I think it is true to say that that is about the only body in Ireland which has earned the respect, esteem and gratitude of all bodies of opinion in Ireland. I am informed by my friends in Ireland that under this Bill—I am sure it must be a mistake, but the sources of my information are so precise that I think they must be accurate—the officials of the Congested Districts Board are not entitled to any annuity or pension in the event of their being removed by the Irish Parliaments. I am sure that cannot have been. the intention, especially in view of the very remarkable work that these devoted men have done. Men of all parties have joined in saying that they have made a new thing of the extreme West of Ireland. They have worked now, some of them, ever since the Lord President of the Council first instituted them, nearly thirty years ago. They have done wonderful work and earned the gratitude of all these poor people, they have almost banished tuberculosis in many districts, and under the terms of this Bill, so I am informed on the highest authority, they are liable to be dismissed without receiving any pension. I would ask the Prime Minister whether he could not give an assurance that the case of these men shall not be overlooked.

I am not myself, in my constituency, concerned with the Congested Districts Board. I am glad to say that in the six counties we do not require the assistance of the Congested Districts Board, but I think my right hon. Friend is quite right in saying, from what I have heard, that there is no provision about the officers of the Board. I do not, however, think this is the Clause upon which to raise the point. There are Clauses afterwards which set up pensions and compensation to various officials under the Government, and I myself had intended to put down an Amendment, which has been drafted, with respect to some of the officials of the Congested Districts Board. I quite agree as to the value of that Board, and what it has done, and I am perfectly sure my right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill would be the last to wish that there should be any injustice done to those officials.

Before this Clause is passed, I would like to make one or two observations as regards what we have been promised under it. I am always anxious to reiterate, if I can, in a succinct form, what has been done in the course of a Clause, and I do not think anyone who has been through the Debates will say we have not had a very useful discussion, tending greatly to the improvement of the Clause, if the various matters which have been suggested are carried out. It will be seen that, except for Sub-section (4), we have been promised a reconsideration of every one of the other three Sub-sections. On the first Sub-section my right hon. Friend has promised to consider as to how the police are to be dealt with during the time that elapses between the transfer of the Constabulary to these Parliaments or their extinction, and he has promised to consider a suggestion of mine that it would be far better, instead of handing over these forces to either of the Parliaments set up in Ireland, to disband the whole force, wind up the matter and allow the Parliaments themselves to make provision for police. That would not, of course, prevent any member of the Constabulary who retired from joining this force. I understand that to be a distinct promise. He has also promised with regard to Sub-section (2) to see how one single authority is to be responsible for the management of the police during the transition period, that is, the period before the two Parliaments get control. To that, as I have said before, we attach supreme importance, and we consider that the whole maintenance of law and order in Ireland will probably be dependent upon the solution which the Government come to as regards that important point. Thirdly, notwithstanding what my right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio said this evening, I hope what was said yesterday will be strictly adhered to, and that the question of the postal service, including the telephone and telegraph services, will be altogether reconsidered, and that it will be reconsidered with a view to seeing whether it is right, or possible, or practical or businesslike that these two subordinate Parliaments in Ireland should have the right, without any consultation or consideration from this Parliament, to set themselves adrift as a separate postal authority. I have already said-and I divided the Committee upon the subject—that it appears to be the most un-business like transaction that could possibly be put forward, and I hope that that matter will be seriously reconsidered. I again say that, although we have spent some time upon the consideration of this Clause, I am certain it is not time that has been wasted, and I should like to bear testimony to the way in which my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty has, on all these different points, attempted to meet our view.

In answer to the point raised by my right hon. and gallant Friend opposite (Major-General Seely), I think he is somewhat under a misapprehension. I think the difficulty he desires to meet is this. There has been under consideration between the Irish Government and the Treasury a system of pensions for the officials, clerical and outdoor, of the Congested Districts Board. In regard to a portion of those officials, a settlement has been arrived at, and the proposals of the Irish Government have been approved. That is covered by the Bill, but the Bill does expose to risk, undoubtedly, those in respect of whom no scheme has been approved. That point has been brought to the notice of the Government, and we propose to insert in the Schedule the words "or which may be approved". This meets the case, I am informed, of those on whose behalf this Amendment is suggested, and that will secure, if any scheme is approved, that they will receive the same benefits as those already covered by the Bill. I think that really meets the point, so far as we can meet it now. With regard to the three points raised by my right hon. Friend, to whom I desire to express my thanks, of course, this is an extremely difficult and a very complicated Bill, but I do not think there has been any difference in the aim and object both of the Government and the Committee, which is to try and produce a workable scheme. My right hon. Friend has quite correctly described the commitments of the Government in regard to this Clause. I do not think it is necessary to enumerate them again. I will only say, with regard to the Post Office, the promise we actually made was that we would so amend Clause 4 on Report as to make it possible for the two Parliaments to secure by similar legislation that the union should only be on certain terms. With regard to the police, we have undertaken to provide against compulsory passing over within a certain date, and we have undertaken to provide that there shall be a change in the plans of the Bill, and we shall endeavour to secure a plan by which control will be in the hands of one authority.

I hope my right hon. Friend will make the point quite clear. To insert the words "or which may be approved" may lead to anxiety on the part of those devoted men who have worked so hard.

It is their own Amendment, as sent to me, and is inserted without any alteration.

I only plead for some definite expression of opinion from the Government that these men shall not be left out in the cold as regards this Bill.

Certainly.

Question put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 10.—(Powers of Irish Council.)

(1) The Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland may, by identical Acts, delegate to the Council of Ireland any of the powers of the Parliaments and Governments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland, and such Acts may determine the manner in which the powers so delegated are to be exerciseable by the Council.

(2) With a view to the uniform administration throughout Ireland of public services in connection with railways, any powers (not being powers relating to reserved matters) exerciseable by any Department of the Government of the United Kingdom at the appointed day with respect to railways in Ireland and the power of making laws with respect to railways shall as from the appointed day become powers of the Council of Ireland, and not of the Governments and Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland.

(3) The Council may consider any questions which may appear in any way to bear on the welfare of both Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland, and may, by resolution, make suggestions in relation thereto as they may think proper, but suggestions so made shall have no legislative effect, and in particular it shall be the duty of the Council of Ireland forthwith after the constitution thereof to consider what Irish services ought in the common interest to be administered by a body having jurisdiction over the whole of Ireland, and what reserved services which are transferable on the passing of identical Acts ought to be so transferred, and to make recommendations to the Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland as to the advisability of passing identical Acts delegating to the Council of Ireland the administration of any such Irish services, with a view to avoiding the necessity of administering them separately in Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, and providing for the transfer of any such reserved services at the earliest possible date.

(4) Before any Order made by the Council in exercise of any legislative powers vested in the Council comes into force, the Order shall be presented to the Lord Lieutenant for His Majesty's assent in like manner as a Bill passed by the House of Commons of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, and, on such assent being given, the Order shall have effect in Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland, respectively, as if enacted by the Parliament of Southern Ireland or Northern Ireland, as the case may be.

(5) The Council shall have power to appoint such secretaries and officers as, subject to the consent of the Treasury of Southern Ireland and the Treasury of Northern Ireland, they may think fit, and the salary and remuneration of those officers and any other expenses of the Council to such amount as the said Treasuries may approve shall, so far as not met by fees paid to, or other receipts of, the Council, he paid out of moneys provided by the Parliaments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland in such proportion as the said Treasuries may mutually agree, or in default of agreement may he determined by the Joint Exchequer Board hereinafter constituted.

(6) It shall he lawful for either Parliament at any time by Act to revoke the delegation to the Council of Ireland of any powers which are in pursuance of such identical Acts as aforesaid for the time being delegated to the Council, and thereupon the powers in question shall cease to be exerciseable by the Council of Ireland and shall become exerciseable in the parts of Ireland within their respective jurisdictions by the Parliaments and Governments of Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland, and the Council shall take such steps as may be necessary to carry out the transfer, including adjustments of any funds in their hands or at their disposal:

Provided that this Sub-section shall not apply to any service which on ceasing to be a reserved service has, in pursuance of identical Acts passed by the two Parliaments, been transferred to the Council of Ireland.

I beg to move, to leave out Sub-section (2).

10.0 P.M.

If the Government will give it to me I should like a frank statement as to what this Sub-section means. I want to know what are the powers exercisable by the Government of the United Kingdom in respect of the railways in Ireland which are to be transferred to the Council. I dislike very much taking this leap in the dark. Let me illustrate. I should like to ask: will it be possible for the Council under this Clause to deal, for instance, with the questions of wages and hours, these questions which under this Bill the Labour party take no interest in whatsoever? Will they be able to say that the wages must be so much; that they may be increased or diminished? Will they be able to deal in a similar manner with the hours? Is it seriously contended that the Council of Ireland should in this respect be able to overrule the Parliaments elected for the North and for the South?

What are the other powers which they are to exercise? I will be much obliged if we can have a list of them. I do not know why we should be doing this without knowing what it is we are really doing, because, recollect, by this Sub- section we are taking away something from the two Parliaments. Does it mean that if you have a railway exclusively within the jurisdiction of the Southern Parliament, or exclusively within the—jurisdiction of the Northern Parliament, that neither of these Parliaments can deal with the railways within their own exclusive jurisdiction? That would seem to me to be a very funny kind of power. Will this Council be able to put obligations of any kind upon these railways; for instance, in relation to workmen's trains, tickets and fares, and other matters of the kind? Will they arise in this? Will they also have the power to interfere in the same way as the Railway Commission over here interferes—with all questions of preference, unfair rates as between different companies, or as between different railway companies, or as between different traders? Will that come in? Shall we have a Railway Commission still in Ireland, or is it abolished? It is here, I find, a semi—judicial kind of body which is exercising jurisdiction at the present moment in Ireland. Are those functions given to the Council? We all know that the Railway Commission over here decides the most complicated questions of law and fact, and' mixed law and mixed fact. Is all of that being transferred by this Sub-section to the Council? What is meant by "any Department of the Government" Is the Railway Commission a Department of the Government? What becomes of it under the Bill? Then the Sub-section speaks of the power to make laws with respect to railways. What does that mean I Does it mean that, say, the North of Ireland Parliament could not make a short railway within the six counties— that it would not even have that much power? Is the law that enables you to make a railway, and to acquire land for the purpose, law in respect of railways? Certainly, so far as I am concerned, and I think my colleagues will agree with me, we would think it a monstrous proposal that you could not make a railway within the jurisdiction of the Parliaments you are setting up, because that would be absurd. It would go further, because, apparently, you could not compel the railways to make any improvements within your jurisdiction, and you would have to go to the Council, and if they were not on good terms with the North and South, you might have difficulties. I should be obliged if we could have as full a statement as possible on this subject. After all, the railways are the great arteries of the country, and while you must have some system giving some kind of uniform administration, I think we ought to know specifically how far the powers go, and how far the powers of the local Parliaments are to be curtailed

I will endeavour at once to answer as fully and frankly as I am able, the interesting questions which have been put by my right hon. and learned Friend (Sir E. Carson). The effect of the Sub-section will be to prevent confusion and chaos amongst railway administration in Ireland. The railways in Ireland are part of one great railway system, and I am sure the last thing my right hon. Friend would desire would be to see any conflict between the Northern and Southern Parliaments which might produce confusion in the administration of the railways. When I point out that some of those railways not only pass from the Northern to the Southern areas, and vice versa, but at many points they pass in and out between the geographical boundaries of those areas.

It has been thought that it was necessary that there should be one authority which would deal with the whole of the railways of Ireland, in order to prevent that confusion and overlapping which might ensue in case conflicting laws were passed by the two Parliaments. My right hon. and learned Friend asked what the Government Departments are which would pass over to the Council as from the appointed day. The principal powers are those at present exercised by the Minister of Transport by virtue of the Ministry of Transport Act of last Session. It will be within the knowledge of every hon. Member of the Committee, that by virtue of that Act the Ministry of Transport were authorised to retain control of the railways of Ireland, as well as of England, for a period of two years from the passing of that Act. The date when these powers expire, unless they are extended by statute, is the 15th August, 1921, and if this Bill becomes operative as an Act of Parliament, the powers will remain in the Ministry of Transport up to the appointed day. If my right hon. and learned Friend will look at the Sub- section he will see that from the appointed day they become the powers of the Council, but up to the appointed day they remain in the Government Department—the Ministry of Transport. The appointed day is dealt with by a later Section of the Bill, namely, Section 67, according to which the appointed day is to be the first Tuesday in the eighth month after the month in which the Act is passed, or such other day not more than seven months earlier or later as may be fixed by Order in Council, and different days may be appointed for different purposes. It is the intention of the Government, if the Bill passes in its present form, that the appointed day shall not be earlier than 16th August, 1921; that is to say, until the powers of control vested in the Ministry of Transport by the Act of last year expire. In other words, there will be maintained in Ireland the same railway administration until that date. But after that day the whole of those powers will lapse and the power of control will lapse also, subject to further legislation. But from that day all administrative powers with reference to railways which are at present vested in Government Departments and which are of a minor character—powers in regard to inquiries into railway accidents, inspection of lines, and so on, these matters which were within the purview of the Board of Trade for many years, and which were transferred to the Ministry of Transport, will pass over as from the appointed day to the Council.

Does my hon. Friend mean to say that when the Transport Act of last year ceases, all these powers are again to go to the Board of Trade?

No; under the Transport Act of last year the Ministry was vested with these powers permanently—powers I mean hitherto exercised by Government Departments. The power of control which was taken during the War is to be maintained for two years from the passing of the Act. The other matters, which I may call simple matters of administration, which are already vested in Government Departments and were formerly vested in the Board of Trade, will pass over to the Council. But in addition to that the Sub-section gives wide legislative powers to the Council. It does in fact make the Council the legislative authority for railways in Ireland, subject, of course, to the more general powers in the Bill which are reserved to this Parliament to deal with. It is thought that it is convenient and necessary that it should be so, for reasons which I have already indicated, in order to prevent any clashing of laws. In this connection, may I say that I think the Government are giving effect to the desire of the railway companies in Ireland upon this matter. I have had the opportunity of conferring more than once with the representatives of Irish railways, and their concern is lest they should be put under two Parliaments which may give varying legislative directions to them, and make their position extremely chaotic. I think their desire is that they shall be under some power which shall be a unified form of control rather than a dual form. My right hon. and learned Friend asked a question as to Private Bill legislation—whether it would be possible for the respective Parliaments for the North and South of Ireland to deal with Bills for the making of railways exclusively within their jurisdiction.

Usually, of course, railways are constructed by virtue of Private Bills, and that is what I had in mind. It is not desired or intended to take away from either the Northern or the Southern Parliament the power to assent to the making of railways either under private or public Bills, and if that point is not made clear in the Bill as it stands, it shall be considered, and we will endeavour to find proper words to make it quite clear. There is another matter which my right hon. and learned Friend put to me, namely, the effect of the Bill upon the Railway Commission in Ireland. That is not, as I am advised, the effect. The Railway and Canal Commissions are not Government Departments in any sense. They are independent judicial authorities established by Statute, and their position would not be affected unless and until the Council of Ireland passed some Act which interfered with their jurisdiction.

I must say that I do not think the explanation of the hon. Gentleman has at all gone to the root of the point raised by my right hon. Friend. The hon. Gentleman says that the Council is to have legislative authority over the railways in order to prevent a clashing of laws. I take it that that means that railways which operate exclusively within the boundaries of Northern Ireland are to be controlled only by the Council, and not in any respect by the Parliament of the North of Ireland. Is that so?

The Council of Ireland alone will control railways which operate exclusively in Northern or in Southern Ireland. I only speak in regard to Northern Ireland, and there, comparatively small as the area is, there are two separate railway companies which operate entirely within that area—the Midland Railway Northern Counties Committee, which operates in County Antrim and County Derry, and the County Down Railway which operates in County Down. There is a further complication, because the Northern Counties Railway is, in fact, a part of the Midland Railway of England. It was bought and is owned entirely by the shareholders of the Midland Railway in this country, under a Private Bill, I suppose passed by this House, so that we have the most extraordinary position, in the case of that particular railway, of a branch of the Midland Railway in this country being subject to the jurisdiction not of this Parliament, not of the Parliament in whose area it is comprised, but of a Council composed partly of people from-the South and West of Ireland, whose ideas as regards railway administration may be not exactly in accordance with those of the Midland Railway of England. That seems to me extraordinary.

There is another even more important matter in regard to this that the hon. Gentleman made rather light of, that is this power that is to be given to the Council to make laws with regard to railways throughout the whole of Ireland. Let us think what that means. You are going to give to a body which is not in any respect directly responsible to the electors of the country the power, if necessary, to nationalise the railways. There is nothing whatever to prevent the Council of Ireland, so far as I understand the Bill, from nationalising the railways of Ireland. There is a Rail- way Minister in Ireland. Will he sit in the Council? It is only to consist of delegations from the Northern and Southern Parliaments, and all sorts of matters will come before it with regard to railways which every Member who is elected for Northern or Southern Ireland may wish to interrogate the Minister upon and have information about, and yet only a small proportion of those Members will be in the Council at all. You, therefore, get a body which derives no authority from the electorate with these vast powers of legislation and? control over a matter of such vital importance to any country as railway communications. Then, I suppose also, they will have power to deal with questions of hours of employment on the railways. These and other matters require further consideration. My right hon. Friend and we who sit with him do not in the slightest degree object to setting up common machinery for dealing with common matters, such as railways, administratively where they own railways which run in both areas. What it seems to me is absurd to suggest, and what will surely require further consideration on the part of the Government is the granting to this Council, constituted in the most novel and unusual way, of these tremendous powers over the railways, which will thereby be removed not only from the Parliaments elected by the people who will be affected by those railways, but even, as in the case of the Midland Railway, they will be removed entirely from the powers of this Parliament, which should surely be the body to decide matters of interest to the Midland Railway of England. Other Members will, no doubt, have something to say upon this subject. This is a matter the wide ramifications of which the Government hardly realised when the Sub-section was put in, and I trust they will be able to do something to put the matter upon a more businesslike and common-sense foundation.

I should like to emphasise the appeal that the Government should give further consideration to this matter. This kind of sloppy legislation may have a very serious effect on railway companies in Ireland, and it would not surprise me if such a Sub-section as this, if it were passed, seriously affected, financially, the shareholders in the railway companies of Ireland. I am very glad that I am not one of those shareholders, because I notice that£100 shares of the Great Northern Railway, which formerly stood at £194, and which a short time ago stood at about £90, have, since the introduction of this Bill, and perhaps because of this very Clause, gone down to £60. The Great Northern Railway is one of the best conducted lines in the country, and its shares have fallen in that way as a result of this kind of legislation. Legislation such as this does reduce the value of the property concerned, and I hope the Government will consider how they are deteriorating by such legislation the property of the railway companies.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport says that in August, 1921, what he called the simpler administration of the railways will pass to this Irish Council. In August, 1921, who will be responsible for the simple matter of paying dividends to the shareholders in the Irish railways? My hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Allen) has told us how lamentably the shares of the Irish railways have fallen. In England the shareholders have a Government guarantee. The railways are not paying, but the shareholders do get their modest dividend. I am told that in August, 1921, that guarantee will be withdrawn. I do not think it will. The Government will not be able to throw over the shareholders in English railways, and some legislation will have to be passed to deal with the matter. What will be the position of the Irish railway shareholder in 1921?Supposing some legislation is brought forward in England to give extended protection to the English railway shareholders; will the Irish railway shareholders be left to the mercy of the Irish Council or of the Parliaments of Ireland?

I should like to ask something of the same question. I listened very carefully to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, and I understood from him that the powers under the Ministry of Transport Act relating to the dealings with railways expire on some date in August, 1921, with the exception of those powers which have been transferred to the Board of Trade. Under the arrangement made with the English rail- ways when the powers come to an end some time in August, 1921, if no arrangement has been made by the Government the railways revert to the companies and the rates which would be in existence in 1921 are continued for a further 18 months. That was put in to enable the railway companies to promote legislation in this House in order to enable them to pay their way. Suppose that before August, 1921, no legislation is initiated by this House, will the same facility for continuing for 18 months the rates then in existence be given to the Irish railways? Another question. Supposing an arrangement is made with the English railway companies by which certain concessions are made or certain powers granted, or that they are taken over by a Government Department before August, 1921, will the same arrangement be made with the Irish railways, or will the Government limit their proposals to the English railways, leaving the Irish railways to be dealt with by the Council of Ireland? So far as I understand—I have had the opportunity of communicating this afternoon with the Secretary of the Railway Companies Association—what the Irish railways desire is that they shall be treated in the same way as the English railways, whatever that is. I do not gather from the speech of the hon. Gentleman that it is certain that that will be done. Though he is extraordinarily clear when he desires to be so, I do not quite follow from what he says what will be the exact position of the Irish railways in August, 1921.

The only thing made clear to my mind by this Debate is that this is an exceedingly obscure Clause. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Neal) gave us certain explanation as to what powers in his opinion the Council of Ireland would get under this Bill. He may be right, but any statement which he makes in this House as to what powers are conferred on the Council of Ireland by this Clause are perfectly useless when the Act comes to be construed by a judicial tribunal. There are two points as to which my mind is left in a state of confusion. The first is, To what railways will these powers of the Council apply? Are they railways in the first instance entirely within the Northern Province or entirely within the Southern Province? Has the Council power over those railways at all? In the second place, I would like to have it made more clear, as regards the railways over which it has power, what the powers are. Therefore I would suggest that the Government should between this and the Report stage recast this Clause entirely and tell us definitely over what railways the Council of Ireland will have powers; whether, for instance, it will have powers over that branch of the Midland Railway—

Take one illustration. Are we to be told that if there is a railway entirely within the Northern Province and the Northern Parliament wants to make rates for workmen's trains over that railway, it is not to be allowed to do it, but that they have to go to an assembly with no authority from the electorate behind it, an assembly half of which will know nothing at all about the North of Ireland and probably will care very much less? The powers of the Northern Parliament to deal with these essentially domestic matters affecting the labour and it may be the safety of their workmen and the convenience of their inhabitants are to be taken away and given to this non-representative body.

The same thing applies with equal force to the Southern Parliament. I wish there were some members of the Labour party here to speak on these matters which so closely affect working men, such as the regulations of hours of labour, the carriage of workmen by the railways, and so on. I understand that in the case of a railway entirely within either the province of the Northern or the Southern Parliament, these Parliaments are to have nothing whatever to say on matters vitally affecting the inhabitants within their province, but that the Council is to deal with them. If that be so, it ought to be put in the Bill, and it ought to be brought to the test of Parliament as to whether it be desired or not. Then we should be able to give a reasoned decision, such as we are not able to give at present. There is the question of the branch of the Mid land Railway referred to by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Mid—Antrim (Major O'Neill). Is that going to be dealt with by the Council, and is that the desire of British subjects who are interested in the Midland Railway and its, development both in this country and in Ireland? We want to know with far greater distinctiveness than we do at present what powers are to be exercised by the Council in regard to those rail ways which are to be brought under its jurisdiction. The vagueness of the terms which are used leaves us quite ignorant, and I think would leave any Court construing the Act quite ignorant as to the powers which they are to have under this Bill. An attempt was made—unfortunately it was not helped by the Government—to define the powers of the different Parliaments, and it was pointed out—the argument applies at least with equal force in this case—that if you are to set up a new body and entrust it with important powers the first thing is to define the powers. Surely it would not be beyond the Minister of Transport to tell us what powers it is intended to give to the Council. If he puts into the Bill a list of the powers which he intends the Council to have, and if it be found hereafter that they are not wide enough, then this House, or perhaps the Board of Trade by an Order in Council, could enlarge them; but if you give them large undefined powers, the meaning of which no court could elicit from this Bill, then we may have these Parliaments involved in endless mitigation. One thing is quite certain. Once you give them any power, it will be very difficult to take it away from them. If you do not give them sufficient power it is very easy to extend it, but if you give them more than you want to give them it would be extremely difficult to take that power away. It would be another injustice to Ireland.

Certain matters of detail have been raised since I spoke last. As to policy, it seems to me that there are three available lines of policy by which this matter could be settled. First, the railways might have been made a reserved service, but no Amendment in that sense has been moved and it is too late to consider it from that point of view. The second line of policy would be to give each of the Parliaments full and independent powers to deal with the railways within its own jurisdiction, but I think, upon consideration, that is not a plan which will commend itself to any of my right hon. or hon. Friends. The railway service of any country cannot be split up into fragments, even though you call those fragments by the name of the individual company. The railway service of a country must always be considered as a whole. To say that you can have a Northern Parliament making one set of laws and establishing one set of regulations, one set of conditions of labour, one plan for dealing with disputes or traffic questions, and that at the same time you can have a Parliament in the South with precisely the same powers, while trains are passing from one jurisdiction to another in the course of one transit, is not practicable. I could not want a better illustration of the impossibility of leaving these matters to be dealt with absolutely by each Parliament independently than the one supplied to me by my hon. and learned Friend who spoke last. He said, "May not the North establish wages conditions?" He knows that that is exactly what you cannot do to-day. You cannot have labour conditions varying according to the geography of counties or districts.

What I mean is that you are setting up the two Parliaments in Ireland, and they are to be entitled each to make absolutely different labour laws as regards wages or hours of work, as regards housing and everything else. You might have the same trade carried on in Belfast and in Dublin, and each under absolutely different labour regulations.

Technically and theoretically my right hon. and learned Friend is correct; but if that was ever attempted with a unified service, and the members of the National Union of Railwaymen were informed of it, it would not work in practice. If my hon. Friends are attacking the whole policy of the Bill, I am not the proper Member of the Govern- ment to deal with the matter. The Prime Minister is wanted to deal with that. If the question is whether there ought to be two Parliaments or one and two sets of laws or one, I have no more to say. I am concerned with the practical point that you cannot establish dual systems of laws to deal with railway administration in a country like Ireland.

A question was put to me as to what the financial position of the railway shareholders would be. That is a matter of importance as to which I desire to give the most careful answer of which I am capable. It involves the question as to what is the position to-day. I am advised that in no sense do we alter or prejudice that position by anything in this Bill. The financial arrangements with the railways of the United Kingdom come to an end with the period of control in August, 1921. Beyond that there is no provision that I am aware of by the Government. The accounts will have to be taken out and worked out, but the obligations of the Government are limited to that date. But beyond that date there is given to the railway companies by the Ministry of Transport Act the right to maintain exceptional charges which have been authorised by the Minister and which, by the Statute, are said to be reasonable charges, and which cannot be challenged as being otherwise than reasonable charges. These are to be maintained for a further period of 18 months. I am advised—and I do not think the advice is open to doubt—that nothing in this Bill will affect that, and that the Irish railway companies, equally with the English railway companies, will have the right to maintain those charges for the full period of control, plus 18 months.

It is not a question for the Council at all. That is a question under existing legislation and under existing financial arrangements between the Government and the railway companies.

I am advised, and I have had the best advice available, that there is nothing in this Bill which in the smallest degree prejudices that position. If my right hon. Friend (Sir E. Carson) and my hon. Friend, the Member for Oxford (Mr. Marriott) are in any doubt upon that, and if they introduce words by way of Amendment to make it clear, then, so far as I am entitled to say so on behalf of the Government, those words will be accepted. I want to make it abundantly clear that we are neither advantaging or prejudicing Irish railway shareholders by anything which there is in this Bill. I was asked to go further and to undertake that any future legislation which deals with the railways in the United Kingdom, whatever form that legislation may be, should be applied to Ireland. Hon. Members who have put that question to me must really realise that it is negativing this Clause, because if the power is to be given to the Irish Council, I cannot undertake that the Government will in the Imperial Parliament pass some measures which would in fact repeal that. Whether the Irish railways would desire to be brought within the purview of future legislation is not a matter upon which I am either competent nor would I think it right to express any opinion whatever. Parliament will have seisin of that when it is presented to the House. There is nothing in this Bill which in any way prejudices the position of Irish railway shareholders, except this, that they have got to be Irish railways, and sooner or later they must come under the jurisdiction of the competent authority, whatever it may be, whether it be the Council or whether it be the Northern and Southern Parliaments. Being Irish railways, they must sooner or later come under the aegis of the legislative authority for Irish railways.

I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for the statement which he has made, which I understand to amount to this, that the Bill guarantees the same powers during the 18 months after August, 1921, to the Irish railways as to the English railways. If by any chance that is not quite clear, and any of us who are interested in railways introduce an Amendment to make that clear, the Government will accept it.

I am much obliged—If legislation prior to August, 1921, is introduced, will the Government include the Irish railways, and place them on the same terms as the English railways? I understand the hon. Gentleman cannot say what will be in that Bill, but when that Bill is introduced, presuming the Irish railways are not included, there is nothing in this Bill, should it become law, which would prevent an Amendment being moved to include Irish railways. Is that agreed?

The whole discussion has been taken from the point of view of the railway directors, and I wish to ask my right hon. Friend if he has taken into consideration the point of view of the railway employés. As a trade unionist myself, I regret very much the absence of the Labour Members, and especially the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas), who, I think, should have been here. I question Very much if the railway employés in Ireland are satisfied with this discussion going on without their representative, being here to say something with regard to this important matter. I think this Clause should not be passed by the Committee without seriously taking into consideration the point of view of the railway employés. I can see very great difficulties in regard to the railways in Ireland in the future, and I merely wish to ask the Government if they will take this matter into consideration?

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I do not know whether the Government will be willing to report progress at this late hour, because the observations I myself propose to make will last more than five minutes. In making this Motion, perhaps I may ask when we may expect that the Clause the right hon. Gentleman has spoken of relating to the possible suspension of the operation of the Bill will be put down, and, secondly, when he proposes to take this Bill again?

Before my right hon. Friend intervenes, may I ask him, as this is such a vital section of the Bill, whether, before we resume the consideration of this Bill, we might have a list circulated of what are the powers exercised by Government Departments in relation to railways? We really do not know where we are. We are referred to the Transport Act, which, we are told, will be out of date. We want to know what will be in date at the time. We want to know what will affect us, and all the more because this is now, we understand, a section not relating to uniform management of railways in Ireland at all, but taking away from the two Irish Parliaments all power altogether in relation to the management and conduct of railways within their own jurisdiction. I hope we may have that Paper, certainly in time for the next discussion.

I cannot claim that my attendance at these Debates has been entirely continuous, but it has been sufficiently frequent for me to be justified in asking this question: When this Debate is resumed will the Minister of Transport be here himself?

I am here nearly as frequently as the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just interrupted.

I asked whether the Leader of the Opposition would be here. [HON. MEMBERS: "Which one?"]

There are so many questions of railway importance raised in this Clause that I venture to ask my right hon. Friend in charge of the Bill, without any disrespect to my hon. Friend (Mr. Neal), who has been answering these questions, whether the Minister of Transport will be here on the next occasion to deal with them.

With regard to the question of my right hon. Friend, I hope the Clause in question will be on the Paper early next week. It is my desire to put it on the Paper before the consideration of the Bill is taken again. As announced, it is proposed to take the Bill again next Wednesday. With regard to the suggestion of my right hon. Friend opposite (Sir D. Maclean), I am bound to say while, as he said, he meant no disrespect to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, I think he has failed to recognise that on every single point that was raised my hon. Friend gave the clearest and most explicit reply. I think I am entitled to say that unless there be an obvious and patent necessity for the presence of the Minister himself, we must remember that there is a great deal of work going on, particularly in connection with the Transport Department, and unless it is impossible for the Parliamentary Secretary to answer, it is really unnecessary to have the Minister here.

There is certainly a larger representation on this Bench than there is on the Front Opposition Bench.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say if we can have the Paper setting out the matters to which I referred?

Certainly.

Question put, and agreed to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

ADJOURNMENT.—Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn."—[ Lieut.-Colonel Sir R. Sanders. ]

Adjourned accordingly at Two Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.