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Commons Chamber

Volume 132: debated on Thursday 22 July 1920

House of Commons

Thursday, July 22, 1920

Private Business

Provisional Order Bills [ Lords ] (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bills, brought from the Lords, and referred on the First reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (New Windsor Extension) Bill [ Lords ].

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Chesterfield Extension) Bill [ Lords ].

Ordered, That the Bills be read a Second time To-morrow.

Great Northern Railway Bill,

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Weardale and Consett Water Bill [ Lords ],

Read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Dover Harbour Bill [ Lords ],

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

Manchester Ship Canal Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Port of London Authority (Consolidation) Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),

Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.

Land Drainage (Ouse) Provisional Order Bill,

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Public Expenditure

Return ordered, "showing so far as particulars are available, the total expenditure (other than out of loans) in England and Wales under certain Acts of Parliament during the years ended 31st March, 1891, 1901, 1911, and 1919, respectively, and the total number of persons directly benefiting from the expenditure for the year 1919, together with a similar particulars for Scotland and Ireland—

Expenditure under the following Acts.

Total Expenditure (other than out of loans) during the year ended 31st March.

Total Expenditure accounted for in col. 5 subdivided between.

Receipts from which total Expenditure accounted for in col. 5 were met.

Total number of persons, directly benefiting from the Expenditure included in col. 5.

1891

1901

1911

1919 (or latest available year).

Interest on loans and provision for repayment of loans.

Administrative expenses.

All other expenses (benefits, &c).

Local rates.

Parliamentary votes and grants.

Other receipts (contributions, fees, interest, rents, &c.)

Total of sums in cols. 6a, 6b, & 6c.

(1)

(2)

(3)

(4)

(5)

(5a)

(5b)

(5c)

(6a)

(6b)

(6c)

(6d)

(7)

£

£

£

£

£

£

£

£

£

£

£

England and Wales:—

(a) National Insurance (Health) Acts

(b) National Insurance (Unemployment) Acts

(c) War Pensions Acts and the Ministry of Pensions Act.

(d) Old Age Pensions Acts

(e) Education Acts

(f) Acts relating to Reformatory and Industrial Schools.

(g) Inebriates Acts

(h) Public Health Acts, so far as they relate to—

(i) Hospitals and treatment of disease

(ii) Maternity and child welfare work

(i) Housing of the Working Classes Acts

(j) Acts relating to the Relief of the Poor

(k) Unemployed Workmen Act

(l) Lunacy Acts

(m) Mental Deficiency Act

Totals

Scotland:—

(a) National Insurance (Health) Acts

(b) National Insurance (Unemployment) Acts

(c) War Pensions Acts and the Ministry of Pensions Act.

(d) Old Age Pensions Acts

(e) Education Acts

(f) Acts relating to Reformatory and Industrial Schools.

(g) Inebriates Acts

(h) Public Health Acts, so far as they relate to—

(i) Hospitals and Treatment of Disease

(ii) Maternity and Child Welfare Work

(i) Housing of the Working Classes Acts

(j) Acts relating to the Relief of the Poor

(k) Unemployed Workmen Act

(l) Lunacy Acts

(m) Mental Deficiency Act

Totals

Ireland:—

(a) National Insurance (Health) Acts

(b) National Insurance (Unemployment) Acts

(c) War Pensions Acts and the Ministry of Pensions Acts.

(d) Old Age Pensions Acts

(e) Education Acts (Primary)

Education Acts (Intermediate)

(f) Acts relating to Reformatory and Industrial Schools.

(g) Inebriates Acts

(h) Public Health Acts, so far as they relate to—

(i) Hospitals and treatment of disease

(ii) Maternity and child welfare work

(i) Housing of the Working Classes Acts

(j) Acts relating to the Relief of the Poor

(k) Unemployed Workmen Act

(l) Lunacy Acts

(m) Mental Deficiency Act

Total

—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]]

Oral Answers to Questions

Naval and Military Pensions and Grants

Pensioners (Deaths)

asked the Minister of Pensions if he will give the number of persons who, having been granted pensions owing to injuries or disease caused by the late War, have died since the pension was granted them?

The approximate number of officers is, I regret to say, 800, and of other ranks, 30,000.

Engineer-Captain Griffith Owen

asked the Minister of Pensions if he is aware of the fact that Engineer-captain Griffith Owen, of paddle-steamer P.T. 12, whose eyesight has failed owing to an accident while escaping from his burning vessel, is now receiving no pension; and will he immediately inquire into this case and see that this gallant officer, who is now 60 years of age and without means of subsistence, will be compensated as he should be?

I regret that no papers can be traced in my Department regarding Captain Owen, and I am informed by the Service Departments that they are unable to identify the officer from the particulars given. If, however, my hon. Friend can supply me with further information, including Captain Owen's address, I will gladly have further inquiry made.

Royal Munster Fusiliers (Sergeant J. T. George)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether his attention had been called to the case of James Talbot George, of 33, Banyard Road, S.E., formerly sergeant in the Royal Munster Fusiliers (regimental No. 5914), who was granted a 20 per cent. disablement pension on 27th January, 1919, and who after being unable to get his identity certificate for several weeks has now received it, but is still owed six weeks' arrears of his pension, although this has been applied for by the local pensions committee, and also by the pensioner himself in registered letters and by personal calls; and whether he will expedite the payment of these arrears in view of the fact that the pensioner is in straitened circumstances and has already been put to much inconvenience owing to the treatment of his case?

I am glad to inform my hon. Friend that authority for payment of the arrears due was issued on the 9th July.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any assurance to the House that the affairs of the Pension Issue Office are now straighter and in better order?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since he took office there has been considerable delay, which is increasing, in the settlement of these cases?

I cannot understand that, because there are fewer questions down than at any other time.

Disabilities (Standard Rates)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is prepared to publish the new standard rates for various classes of disabilities, showing where there has been any alteration from the standard published in 1917?

The rates of assessment for certain specific disabilities as given in the Royal Warrant of March, 1917, have been somewhat improved, and in their latest form are contained in the First Schedule to the Royal Warrant of 6th December last.

Is it the fact that in the case of certain disabilities a lower standard of payment is established by the scale now brought into force?

I am not quite sure, but I shall be very happy to give my right hon. Friend any information I have.

Ex-Service Men

Neurasthenia (Treatment)

asked the Minister of Pensions if it is the case that for the three southern provinces of Ireland the only institution for the treatment of discharged soldiers suffering from neurasthenia is Leopardstown Park, county Dublin; if the accommodation is limited to 35 patients; if there are at present awaiting admission there 248 men for whom treatment in that place has been recommended; and, if so, what steps he proposes to take to provide adequate accommodation for these distressing cases?

The facts are substantially as stated in the question. Arrangements are, however, in progress to provide accommodation at Leopardstown Park for an additional 50 patients, and the question of providing further facilities for the treatment of this class of patient is engaging my earnest attention. I need scarcely remind my hon. Friend that there are considerable local difficulties to be contended with, but I can assure him that everything possible will be done to meet the situation.

asked the Minister of Pensions if his attention has been drawn to the callous manner in which neurasthenic cases are treated by the Manchester medical board; will he issue instructions that greater consideration be extended to these shattered men in future; and meanwhile will he assure himself that someone with special knowledge and sympathy for such cases is represented on that board?

No complaint whatever has been received by the Ministry at headquarters or by the Regional Director which would support the suggestion made by my hon. Friend, that the Special Boards which examine neurasthenic cases in Manchester deal otherwise than with tack and consideration with the cases that come before them. If, however, my hon. Friend has any specific instances in mind, I shall be glad to inquire into them at once, if he will communicate the particulars to me.

Training (Yorkshire)

asked the Minister of Pensions whether he is aware that there are more than 2,000 disabled men awaiting training in Yorkshire, of whom nearly 1,000 are in Leeds and nearly 500 in Hull, while only 1,800 are actually being trained; and whether he can take steps to increase the facilities for training or otherwise improve the system?

I have been asked to reply. I am aware that the situation is approximately as stated by my hon. and gallant Friend. A number of Instructional Factories, however, either have already opened or will be opened in the course of the next few months in this area, which will provide accommodation for nearly 1,000 additional trainees. Every effort is being made to complete the equipment of these buildings in order that the number of men in training may be increased as rapidly as possible.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the advisability of making applications to existing factories and of getting them to take a certain number of these men, and so avoid the expense of setting up special factories?

We survey the field with every care, and get the assistance of the polytechnics and of the technical and secondary schools for which we are grateful. With regard to our own factories, we endeavour to obtain accommodation as expeditiously as possible.

Apprenticeships Interrupted

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government are in accord with the declared policy of organised labour in preventing a man who has served in the War from becoming an apprentice, resuming an interrupted apprenticeship and obtaining suitably paid employment while in his apprenticeship, unless he becomes a member of a recognises trade union and is able to prove that he is working or has worked at a minimum trade union rate; and, if not, will they insist that men disabled or otherwise shall have full liberty of action to enable them to earn a living?

I am not aware that the policy of organised labour is as described in the question, and perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend will send me the particulars of the information on which his question is based.

Employment (Oldham)

asked the Minister of Labour if all disabled ex-service men in Oldham have been found employment, and which other towns or cities have a like record?

Through the courtesy of my hon. Friend, I have been enabled to read the record of the Oldham Corporation. There are now no disabled ex-service men residing in Oldham on the live register of the Oldham Employment Exchange, with the exception of one or two men who are undergoing treatment or training. I heartily commend the example of Oldham to other parts of the country. I am sure my hon. Friend will be glad to know that in the case of seven other Employment Exchanges, namely, those at Harrow, Hebburn, Hebden Bridge, Neath, Sandycroft, Sheerness and Willington Quay, there are, I am advised, no disabled men at this moment registered as unemployed. But notwithstanding this, there still remain some 22,000 disabled men seeking employment, and I trust that the sequel to the fine record of Oldham and the other places mentioned, may be the rapid reduction and early disappearance from the ranks of the unemployed of the 22,000 men who are still registered at our Exchanges.

In view of the terms of his answer, can the right hon. Gentleman take some steps to give practical effect, in the case of other towns, to their following what has been done in Oldham?

I have asked, and again ask, here and now, that what Oldham has said to-day, the rest of the country shall say to-morrow. I will do all I can.

If the rest of the country says to-morrow what Oldham says to-day, will it be necessary to continue the Ministry of Labour?

Ireland

Property Destroyed (Value)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he will state the total estimated cost of the property destroyed by Sinn Feiners in Ireland for the years 1919 and 1920, including Government property, in the provinces of Ulster, Munster, Leinster, and Connaught, respectively?

The estimated cost of the property destroyed by Sinn Feiners in Ireland up to the 14th instant is as follows:—

Will the right hon. Gentleman state what is the estimated loss of life owing to the activities of the friends of the right hon. Gentleman opposite in the last few days in Belfast?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Sinn Feiners in Ireland have been advised that the maximum penalty for destruction of property is three months, and what steps have the Government taken to strengthen the law in that respect?

The hon. Gentleman should give notice of that question. It does not arise on this one.

How is it that this enormous amount of property is destroyed and, apparently, no effective steps are taken by the Government to prevent it?

The right hon. Gentleman has given a complete answer. The hon. and gallant Gentleman should give notice of his question.

On a Point of Order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that a few months ago, in answer to a question of my own, the Prime Minister stated that the Government were taking steps to strengthen the law in this respect, I respectfully ask what steps the Government have taken?

I have already pointed out that that does not arise out of this question. If the hon. Gentleman will take the trouble to put his question on the Paper, I have no doubt there would be an answer forthcoming.

Royal Irish Constabulary Fund

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that a Vice-Regal Commission has recommended that the Royal Irish Constabulary Fund, which has arisen from subscriptions and deductions from pay and pensions of members of the force, should be wound up and distributed; and when this recommendation will be carried into effect?

This fund was created by Statute for the benefit of widows and orphans of subscribers, and it cannot be diverted from that purpose. It is true that a Vice-Regal Commission on the reorganisation and pay of the Irish police forces recently recommended that the fund should be wound up, but the Committee did not give any reasons for this recommendation, or suggest any method by which effect could be given to it. After careful consideration of several suggested methods of winding up, it has been decided that the fund must for the present, at least, continue on its existing basis.

May I ask whether in the circumstances existing in Ireland, provision ought not to be made for the widows and orphans of these men without their having to subscribe to a fund?

If my right hon. and learned Friend refers to the widows and orphans of constables who have been killed during duty——

——killed during duty, I should say that already special arrangements have been made to meet the case, inasmuch as two-thirds of the pay of the constable, who has gone down in the course of his duty at once becomes payable to his widow, and special arrangements are made to look after the children.

After providing for existing liabilities, could not the surplus be distributed?

Military and Police (Co-Ordination)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland if he will state who is charged with the duty of co-ordinating the energies of the naval, military, and police forces in Ireland, in view of the fact that, though twice within the last few months the mails for the Lord Lieutenant and Chief Secretary have been stolen by armed men and that over 300 abandoned police barracks and coastguard stations have been destroyed by fire and other means, there has been no reported case in which the assailants have been surprised or captured?

Co-ordination between the naval, military, and police forces in Ireland is effected by means of personal consultation between the responsible officers of the several forces.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say why the consultation with these responsible officers does not result in something being done in view of the fact that 300 police barracks have been destroyed and nobody arrested?

I think that question could be fairly raised in Debate this afternoon.

Sinn Fein Courts

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is aware that between the 16th June and the 8th July, while British judges were on circuit throughout Ireland, 47 Sinn Fein republican courts of arbitration and courts martial were held in public and 115 arrests by republican police were made; and whether the Government propose to re-establish the authority of the Crown by issuing a proclamation that those who hold such courts and attend them shall be held to be guilty of high treason?

I cannot confirm the figures given by my hon. and gallant Friend. The holding of unauthorised courts is already an offence under the law, and in all oases in which sufficient evidence is available, appropriate action will be taken.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether anybody has been prosecuted and convicted for holding these illegal courts?

I hope my hon. and gallant Friend will not press me to make an answer, but I can assure him that every step that can be taken is being taken.

Have not many of these courts succeeded in preventing agrarian crimes by adjudicating between the parties successfully?

Public Officials (Salaries)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the salaries of any officials of such bodies who have accepted the authority of the republican assembly in Ireland are being paid in whole or in part by moneys voted by Parliament; and, if so, whether such payments will cease forthwith?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given by the Leader of the House to a question asked on this subject on Monday last by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for the Duncairn Division of Belfast.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the answer referred to simply dealt with the sum of money handed over to public bodies? Are we paying money to any officials of public bodies who repudiate the authority of this Parliament?

I am not aware of any official who has repudiated the authority of this Parliament being paid. Grants made are paid into the account of the public authority and any part or it may be the most part of it may go to an official of that local authority, but I am not aware of any public grant going directly to an official of any authority who has repudiated the authority of this Parliament.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take steps, either directly or indirectly, to prevent any sums of money going to these officials?

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is a very dangerous precedent to say that public officials who have at any time recognised an illegal tribunal shall be deprived of their salaries?

I have already said that no money is now being paid to any local authority which is not acting in accordance with the law.

Motor Cars (Permits)

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the use of motor cars is prohibited in Ireland except by permit; if so, whether this is being strictly enforced by confiscation of cars or other means; and, if so, how is it that assassins are able to move about the country in motor cars?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. Definite instructions in regard to the enforcement of the Order have been given to the police and military. Investigation has shown that cars used for criminal purposes have in many cases been taken from the owners forcibly, or hired on pretence of lawful business.

Have any of these cars which have been used for improper purposes been captured by the police and confiscated?

A great number of cars have been captured and confiscated, and any cars that are found without permits are confiscated.

Martial Law

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether it is the intention of the Government to establish martial law in Ireland?

I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given by the Leader of the House to a somewhat similar question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for South Kensington on Monday last.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a Bill has just passed a Standing Committee, which will greatly strengthen the hands of the law in Ireland with respect to firearms, and will he approach the Leader of the House with a view to having that Bill passed through this House as quickly as possible?

Has not the right hon. Gentleman full power under D.O.R.A. to confiscate firearms and prevent their use? Why has he not been more successful in getting possession?

I regret that we have not been more successful, and I pray the aid of my hon. Friend to seize all arms now carried illegally by any people.

Murders of Police

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland how many members of the Royal Irish Constabulary and other police forces in Ireland have been murdered since the 1st January, and how many murderers have been convicted and executed?

I regret to say that in the period from 1st January, 1920, up to and including 20th July, 1920, five members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police and 46 members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, including Divisional Commissioner Smyth, have been murdered. No person has been convicted or executed for the murders.

I will deal with that question, if I may, during the Debate this afternoon, because it involves the whole question of civil jurisdiction in Ireland.

Is it not a fact that the number of these murders has been greater in the last few weeks than at almost any other period in the year?

The number of murders in the last week have been greater than in any preceding week.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, in view of this condition of affairs, any leaders or inspirers of these murders have been arrested? How can you stop it unless the instigators are arrested?

If one had evidence that any leader or any other person not a leader was an instigator of murder, of course, such person would be arrested and prosecuted for murder. I have said many times that I regret that the evidence has not yet been forthcoming.

Has Mr. Arthur Griffith, the declared Vice-President of the Irish Republic, been arrested for high treason?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the last 10 days 12 policemen have been murdered?

Motor Fuel

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether the Government will consider taking immediate steps to commandeer all stocks of motor fuel in Ireland?

Brigadier-General Lucas

asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether steps are still being taken to ascertain the where abouts of Brigadier-General Lucas; and if the Government have as yet any clue to his whereabouts?

All possible steps have been and will be taken, but up to the present there is no clue.

Can the right hon. Gentleman indicate what steps have been taken to find General Lucas and to arrest the people concerned?

My hon. and gallant Friend, as an ex-service man, will see that if I give the House information as to the steps that we have taken, the chance of securing the release of General Lucas would be still more remote.

What has happened to the Secret Service in Ireland? Have we no Secret Service?

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the restriction of the hours of opening of licensed premises, while a source of increased profit to the licence holders owing to diminished on-cost and therefore not objected to by them as traders, is considered by the democracy, other than the cellared classes, who are not affected thereby, as an interference with their personal liberty, and will he now take steps to put an end to such interference and restore to the people of this country the right of self-determination in the matter of their refreshment?

I can add nothing to what has already been said in reply to questions on this subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the majority of the citizens in this country consider that the Government has no more right to interfere with the personal habits in the matter of refreshment any more than in——

If the hon. Member speaks on behalf of the majority of the citizens of this country he must reserve what he has to say until we get to a reasoned Debate.

Dr. Mannix (Visit)

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government can state what action it proposes to take concerning Dr. Mannix's proposed visit to Ireland?

I can add nothing to the answer given to my hon. Friend by the Leader of the House on Monday last to a question on this subject.

The answer given on Monday was that the matter was under consideration, and seeing that this gentleman is expected to arrive here at the end of this month and that the matter is urgent, can the right hon. Gentleman say when a decision is likely to be reached?

We shall certainly come to a decision before the moment arrives for putting the decision into execution.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this gentleman is a very dangerous revolutionary, who has done great harm in the Dominions, and that we do not want him here?

We are certainly aware that he has been delivering exceedingly mischievous speeches. We are fully alive to the fact.

War Memorial, Dublin

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government has definitely abandoned all thought of erecting and maintaining, out of public funds, in the capital of Ireland any Memorial, however simple, to the Irishmen who died in the great War; and will he say what, approximately, is the charge upon public funds of maintaining in Stephen's Green Park, Dublin, the memorial arch erected by private subscription to the Irishmen who died in the South African War?

This matter is under consideration. Up to the present the charge on public funds for maintaining the memorial arch has been nominal only.

May I take it that it has not been decided to turn down the proposal for a public memorial?

Disturbances, Belfast

( by Private Notice ) asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he is prepared to make any statement to the House regarding the organised attack on Catholic workers employed at Queen's Island, Belfast; whether this attack is the result of a meeting held outside Harland and Wolff's works; whether the Government, after inflammatory speeches on 12th July, took any precautions to protect the Catholic minority and what steps the Government is now taking to protect life and property?

I regret to say that according to telegraphic reports which I have received from the police in Belfast, party trouble broke out in the shipyards at 3.30 p.m. yesterday. The trouble was at first localised, but became more general during the night. The military were fired on and returned the fire. There was a good deal of looting, especially of spirit dealers' shops in the east district. About 70 persons have been treated in hospital, 25 of them for gunshot wounds. There are, I regret to say, three deaths from gunshot wounds. A number of police were injured, but none I understand, very seriously. At 11 o'clock this morning the city was re ported quiet and a fair start had been made at the shipyards and mills. I have just heard, however, that at the dinner tour to-day further fighting occurred and two ironworkers and one soldier are reported wounded. There are considerable military forces in the city and neighbourhood and every step was taken in consultation with the representatives of local opinion to guard against the outbreak of disorder. The General Officer Commanding in Belfast is in full charge of the forces in that city, and he can draw on reserves if necessary in the immediate neighbourhood. I nave no knowledge of any meeting, though I have seen newspaper reports on the subject.

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered a single question I have put to him—not one! Is he aware of the attacks made on the Catholic workers of Queen's Island? Does he know how many were driven in the most savage way from their employment; and what are the precautions taken by the Government? Those are the questions I put.

Arising out of the reply of the Chief Secretary, these are not questions of Catholic and Protestant, Mr. Speaker——

The hon. Gentleman must put what he has to say in the form of a question.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware, arising out of this occurrence in the Belfast establishment, that this is not a question of Catholic and Protestant at all, but of Unionists and Sinn Feiners. Is he aware that these Protestants and Unionists were justified, in view of the fact that the Sinn Feiners at Harland and Wolff's were armed with revolvers, and immediately they produced revolvers the Unionists knocked them down——

That will be more suitable for the Debate which is to come on in five minutes.

Is it not a fact that the meeting referred to by the hon. Member for West Belfast was a meeting held to express indignation at the murder of Colonel Smyth, and is it not a fact that the body of Colonel Smyth, who was an Ulster man, had to be brought by motor from Cork to Banbridge for internment, as the Sinn Feiners would not permit it to be brought by train?

Would the right hon. Gentleman answer the questions I have put to him? Those are citizens employed in a legal occupation. Is he aware that the statement made about their politics has nothing whatever to do with it? I deny they are Sinn Fein—absolutely!—any more than I am who represent them in Parliament. Were these workers, in the pursuance of their rights of citizenship to work in the public works of Belfast, driven out by a savage crowd, and what steps have been taken by the Government to defend them? That is what I want to know.

In answer to all these questions, I have given the information which I have received from Belfast in general terms. I cannot enter into a dispute as to the religious beliefs of the various persons engaged in this regrettable trouble. All I am responsible for is to try and keep order, and one of our ablest generals, namely, General Carter-Campbell, who is on the spot, has absolute power, and he will endeavour to keep order regardless of the political or religious views of any of the contestants.

I want to know from the right hon. Gentleman why his ablest general and all his able soldiers were not on Queen's Island, in view of the speeches delivered inciting these people to assault Catholics. I want to know why the able general and his soldiers were not there to protect these men from murder?

The general officer commanding the troops in Belfast has not got his headquarters on Queen's Island. I repeat that everything has been done before the 12th July, on the 12th, since the 12th, and now to preserve order in one of the most difficult areas in His Majesty's Dominions.

Peace Treaties

Allied Conference (Cost)

asked the Prime Minister the cost to the Exchequer of the recent Allied Conferences at San Remo, Lympne, and Boulogne, with particulars of the charges for special steamers and trains, and the size of the staffs of secretaries and other officials attached to the British delegations?

Although the accounts are not yet completed, I am in a position to give what I am informed are substantially accurate estimates as follow:—

Rumanian Oil Fields

asked the Prime Minister whether there is any foundation for the allegation made in Rumania that a secret agreement was concluded at San Remo between France and England for the purpose of dividing former enemy interests in the Rumanian oilfields in equal proportion between those two countries; and, if not, whether he will take the necessary steps to have our name cleared in Rumania from this damaging aspersion?

Certain clauses in the Anglo-French agreement concluded at San Remo in April referred to the relations between the British, French and Rumanian Governments regarding the interests of their nationals in the Rumanian oil fields. There is nothing that His Majesty's Government have any hesitation in making public. The terms of the agreement will be published when the French Government, who have been asked, agree.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a Rumanian paper published this alleged agreement and described the transaction as shameful? In view of that fact, will the right hon. Gentleman make an early statement on the subject, in order to clear the good name of this country?

I do not think that anything better can be done, except to publish the agreement as soon as possible.

Armenia (Frontier Delimitation)

asked the Prime Minister when a reply is expected from President Wilson as to the delimitation of the frontiers of Armenia?

asked the Prime Minister what progress Mr. Woodrow Wilson has so far made with the delimitation of the Armenian frontier; and when the work is likely to be finished?

I have no information which would enable me to answer these questions.

Questions

Secretary for Scotland (Status)

asked the Prime Minister whether he has yet come to a decision regarding the raising of the status of the Secretary for Scotland to that of Secretary of State for Scotland?

The Government recognise fully the justice of the demand unanimously made by Scottish Members that the status of Secretary for Scotland should be raised to that of a Secretary of State. The Government hope to deal with this subject in the Autumn Session.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that there will be no increase in salary?

Shops (Early Closing) Bill

asked the Prime Minister if the Government is going to introduce a Bill to continue the existing hours of shop closing before the adjournment in August in order that there shall not be a return to pre-War hours at the expiry of the Defence of the Realm Act?

My right hon. Friend has asked me to reply to this question. Yes, Sir. A Bill is to be introduced at once.

Nauru Island Agreement

asked the Prime Minister when the Nauru Island agreement will be submitted to the League of Nations?

There is nothing in the Covenant of the League of Nations which requires or contemplates that an Agreement of this nature should be submitted to the League. The obligation which rests on the Mandatory under Article 22 to "render to the Council an annual report in reference to the territory" will, of course, be fulfilled.

May I ask whether, until the meeting of the Council of the League, the nation of Nauru will be free to follow their own manners and customs, and will the islanders be entitled to broiled brother for breakfast until the League decides?

League of Nations

France and Belgium (Military Alliance)

asked the Prime Minister whether the British representative on the Council of the League of Nations has informed his Government that negotiations are proceeding for the conclusion of a military alliance between France and Belgium, one of the provisions of which is a stronger army for Belgium than in pre-War days?

Prisoners, Repatriation

asked the Prime Minister whether Dr. Nansen has reported that in the case of each of the countries concerned in the repatriation of prisoners the cost of transport should be repaid by the countries to which the prisoners belong, but that in the meantime the League of Nations should raise a loan; and whether it is proposed to follow this recommendation?

The expenses of the transportation of the prisoners are being provided for in the form of a loan to those countries whose nationals are being repatriated. The League of Nations are not raising a loan, but they have requested the International Relief Credits Committee in Paris to divert funds to cover the costs of the repatriation. The answer to the last part of the question is that the British representative on the International Relief Credits Committee has been instructed to support this proposal, and it is hoped that the necessary funds will shortly be forthcoming.

Aaland Islands

asked the Prime Minister whether the chief cause of the dispute of Finland and Sweden over the Aaland Islands is the danger to either party of fortification by the other; whether the neutralisation of these islands affords a reasonable solution; and whether, accordingly, the Government will exercise its friendly right in the Covenant of the League of Nations to put forward this proposal?

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply returned yesterday to the Noble Lord the Member for Hitchin.

Samoa (Chinese Labour)

asked the Prime Minister whether the avowed object of the mandatory system is the moral and material well-being of the inhabitants of the late Germam colonies; and whether, seeing that Chinese labour of one sex only, imported and indentured for long periods, is detrimental to the moral welfare of the inhabitants, in the event of no such clause appearing in the mandate for Samoa, the Council of the League of Nations will have any power to secure the incorporation of a clause designed to prevent such importations?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part of the question, I am not prepared, on a hypothetical case, to attempt to discuss the question of the power of the Council of the League of Nations to superimpose fresh conditions upon those laid down in an original mandate.

United States and Japan

asked the Lord Privy Seal if the differences that have arisen between the United States of America and Japan, as the result of the anti-Japanese legislation which has been passed in America, are of a character which could be referred to the League of Nations for settlement; and, if so, whether the Government proposes to offer its good services with this object?

I am not aware of the existence of any differences between the United States and Japan of such a nature as to justify the intervention of His Majesty's Government in the manner suggested.

Has the right hon. Gentleman not see the correspondence and the telegraphed communications that have taken place between the two countries, and has he not seen the report that appeared in the Press?

Russia

M. Nuorteva (Arrest)

asked the Prime Minister whether M. Nuorteva, secretary of the Soviet Government bureau in New York, has been arrested after a fortnight's stay in this country and has had his passport taken away from him; if so, on what grounds; and whether he will immediately order the release of this man and have his passport returned to him, in view of the seriousness of so dealing with the accredited representative of a country with which we are not officially at war?

I have nothing to add to the answer given last Thursday on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, except that M. Nuorteva has left this country, that his passport was returned to him, and that I am not aware that he is the accredited representative of Russia. He is certainly not accredited to this country.

Is it going to help you in your Peace negotiations with Russia, and in trying to save Poland, if you hunt Russian subjects like this through the secret police?

Russian subjects have to conform to the rules of this country. This gentleman did not do that. We would have arrested any other subject of any other country under similar conditions. They must not assume that if they have rules of their own in their own country they can impose them on this country.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this gentleman came to this country with a proper passport?

The passport was duly visaed by our people in New York. Will the right hon. Gentleman withdraw his statement?

Mesopotamia

Oil

asked the Primo Minister whether he is now in a position to lay upon the Table of the House the recent Anglo-French agreement with regard to the oil in Mesopotamia?

There is reason to believe that a reply to the communication addressed to the French Government regarding the publication of the recent Anglo-French agreement may be expected shortly, and I hope to be able to make a further statement as soon as it is received.

Arab Attacks

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the fact that it is the policy of the Government to establish an Arab state in Mesopotamia, if that policy has been announced in that country; and, if so, can he say why the Arabs are attacking British forces there?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. As regards the second, I do not know the reason for the recent attacks.

Has the policy of the Government to establish an Arab state in Mesopotamia been proclaimed in that country?

Oh, yes. It has been conveyed by proclamation throughout the country.

British Occupation

asked the Prime Minister whether, since large reinforcements have been sent to Mesopotamia, the Government propose to review the policy of maintaining the British occupation of that country?

The present difficulties are temporary and will, I am convinced, be overcome. The Government see no reason for abandoning the British Mandate over Mesopotamia.

Will the expenses fall on this country and not on the Indian finances?

Rumeitha Garrison Relieved

At the end of Questions

I think, perhaps the House would like to know the latest news we have received from Mesopotamia.

After the original relief column for Rumeitha was held up, a force composed of approximately one infantry brigade, with artillery, was concentrated at Imam-Hamza. At dawn on the 18th July this column moved forward to relieve the garrison at Rumeitha. By early on Monday, the 19th, the column reached a point four miles north-west of Rumeitha. Strong opposition was encountered here, but the enemy, estimated at 2,000 strong, was holding three lines of embankment and using bombs and machine guns. A prolonged engagement took place. The fighting was severe, but our attack was successful, and a counter attack by the enemy after dark was beaten off. The enemy were bombed and machine-gunned with effect by aeroplanes which co-operated with the troops. The infantry and artillery operated effectively. The enemy were observed to suffer many casualties. The enemy during the night evacuated their position and retired to an embankment 1,000 yards south. The column, continuing in its advance early on the 20th, passed through the evacuated position. Parties of the enemy retiring hastily were again bombed and machine-gunned with effect by aeroplanes. In the afternoon of the 20th the relief column reached Rumeitha with little further resistance.

This relieves the serious anxiety we had about the safety of the garrison which is now relieved.

Questions

Industrial Assurance

asked the Prime Minister what action he proposes to take with reference to the disclosures revealed in the Report of the Right. Hon. Lord Parmoor's Committee on Industrial Assurance?

The Committee's recommendations involve legislation, and in view of the pressure of public business, I cannot at present say when it will be possible to submit proposals to Parliament.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the great urgency of this matter, and that many poor people apparently are being defrauded over these irregularities, and can nothing be done in the interim to protect them?

The hon. and gallant Gentleman can tell as well as I what are the prospects of drafting and carrying through a Bill of this kind before we adjourn.

Ministries (Handbook)

asked the Prime Minister whether it will be possible during the Recess to have compiled in a cheap form an official handbook, giving a list of the various Ministries and their subordinate Departments, the location of their offices, the number and cost of their personnel, and a short synopsis of the duties which they severally discharge?

No, Sir. I am advised that such a publication could not be produced at a low price, and I see no advantage in the publication sufficient to warrant the expense.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a very wide call thoughout the country for the publication of this handbook, if only for the use of Members of Parliament?

No. I am rather impressed by the small extent to which the information already supplied to the public is read by them.

Syria

asked the Prime Minister whether His Highness the Emir Feisul has appealed to the League of Nations to arbitate or intervene between the French Government and his own Government; and whether His Majesty's Government intends to exercise its right under the Covenant of the League to invite the parties to the dispute to submit to arbitration?

As regards the first part of the question, I have no official information. As regards the second, I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal on Monday.

Why is it that, having invoked the League in the matter of Poland, we cannot use our good offices in this matter to prevent two gallant Allies fighting each other?

The complaint was that we had not invoked the League of Nations.

We have now. Why cannot we undertake to do it in the case of the Emir Feisul and the French?

asked the Under secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty s Government is under any obligations to co-operate with, or assist in any way, the French Government in the event of military operations being undertaken by the French against the Arabs in Syria?

The answer is in the negative.

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the French Government is col- lecting customs dues at the Syrian ports on behalf of the Government of Damascus?

Government Printing Works

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have purchased the printing works of Messrs. Darling and Son, of Bethnal Green; if so, what the purchase price is; and on what grounds the Government have decided to extend the number of State-managed printing works?

The works were taken over by the Stationery Office in 1917, and an agreement to purchase them was made in October, 1919, and has since been completed. The purchase price was £35,000, being £15,000 for the premises and £20,000 for the plant. The purchase was made because in the circumstances which had arisen it was the most economical course to pursue, but it is not intended to keep these premises permanently. The Government have not decided to extend the number of State-managed printing works.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether a sum was paid to the directors of the company as compensation for loss of profit?

I think not. My information is that the price was £15,000 for the premises and £20,000 for the plant, and I think I may take that as excluding any special payment for compensation.

Is there any truth in the statement that over £1,000,000 has been invested by the Government in printing works?

Rhodesia (Cave Commission)

asked the Prime Minister why the Report of the Cave Commission on Rhodesia has been held back, and when it will be published?

As already explained in the House, the Commission are not yet in a position to report.

Have they not reported yet? If they have not reported, is Lord Cave going to America before they report? If so, will there not be a very grave delay?

Is it not a fact that this Commission has not yet completed its labours?

Would the right hon. Gentleman say what is going to be done if Lord Cave is in America for some months?

I should not like to answer that, without notice. It is very desirable that the Report should be issued as soon as possible.

Transport

Railway Fares (Increase)

asked the Prime Minister whether he can now give an assurance that the increase of railway fares will not take place before the expiration of one month from the publication of the Report of the Rates Advisory Committee?

I have been asked to answer this question, and can only do so by reference to the recent statements made on behalf of the Government on the subject.

May I ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware that the Rates Advisory Committee will report direct, without any control by Parliament, and can he not possibly make some sort of concession to the people who are so much excited about their holidays?

I am afraid I am not in a position to reply. I have been very hard pressed since I returned, and I have not been able to look into this matter.

Does the hon. Gentleman not think it desirable to give notice at once of the time at which you are going to impose these increased fares, in order to enable holiday makers to make their arrangements?

There will be no undue delay. The whole matter has been fully covered by the answer given by the Leader of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]

It is hoped that the Report of the Railway Rates Advisory Committee will be received during the next few days.

asked the Minister of Transport whether the increase of railway fares sanctioned by the Board of Trade two years ago provided for an increase of 50 per cent. on pre-war fares, or for an increase of fares from 1d. to 1½d. per mile?

The Board of Trade Order, made under the Defence of the Realm Regulation 7B, and dated the 21st December, 1916, ran as follows:

"On and after the 1st January, 1917, the railway companies in Great Britain may charge, in addition to the passenger fares contained in the lists exhibited at the stations at the date of this Order, a sum equal to one-half of such fares, or where the fare is not contained in such list they may charge one-half more than the maximum fare which would be chargeable but for this Order."

Am I to understand from that that where the railway fares are less than the statutory amount, the loss to the State will be more?

I think I have said sufficient for the hon. Gentleman to calculate for himself the financial result.

asked the Minister of Transport how the proposed new railway fares for passengers in this country will compare with the fares charged on the railways in France, Canada, and the United States of America?

As the hon. Member is aware, I am not yet able to state what the increase on fares in this country will be, and, therefore, am not in a position to make the comparison desired.

Privilege Tickets

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the annual loss to the revenue of the railway companies, and therefore to the State, resulting from the issue of privilege tickets to officials and railwaymen, their wives, and dependants, and having regard to the increased wages and bonuses of railway servants, he will in the interest of the taxpayer consider the advisability of instructing the Ministry of Transport to suspend these privileges, which favour the railway employees at the expense of the taxpayer, so long as the State guarantee continues?

I have been asked to reply to this question and would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to a similar question put by the hon. Member for Kensington South yesterday.

I asked a very specific point of the Prime Minister, thinking he was much more in a position to answer. May I ask whether he would in his position as Prime Minister suggest to the Ministry of Transport to suspend these privileges to the railway men, which are costing this country large sums of money under the guarantee.

Sir Hardman Lever

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer which official of the Treasury receives the advice and report of Sir Hardman Lever, Treasury representative at the Ministry of Transport, regarding the general financial position of transport undertakings; who are the officials whose duty it is to decide upon the proposals which Sir Hardman Lever formulates on behalf of the Ministry of Transport; what are their salaries; and whether such salaries are commensurate with the £5,000 a year paid to Sir Hardman Lever, who has to submit to their decision.

Sir Hardman Lever is himself an official of the Treasury appointed for service in the Ministry of Transport, and, like other officials of the Treasury, is responsible to me.

Publications (Sale)

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any record of receipts from the sale of the various publications issued by his Department; and, if so, why this is not shown as a credit against the expenditure of £40,000 for stationery and printing in the Ministry of Transport Estimate?

The £40,000 shown in the note to the Estimate for the Ministry of Transport 1920–21 represents, in accordance with the usual practice in regard to all Departments, the amount estimated by the Stationery Office as the probable expenditure on stationery, etc., for the Ministry. The cost of printing and issuing all official publications is borne on the Vote of the Stationery Office, and similarly all receipts from sales of such publications are credited as appropriations-in-aid to that Vote, and are shown in bulk in its appropriation account.

London Traffic Combine (Labour)

asked the Minister of Transport whether, up till about 12 months ago or thereabouts, a large proportion of the motor men, conductors, and others engaged on the London omnibuses, tubes, railways, and other means of transport worked an eight-hour day composed of two four-hour shifts covering the morning and evening peak-load periods, and had the period between, comprising the best hours of the day, for their own occasions; whether this practice has been departed from and it is now insisted that every man shall work his shift continuously for eight hours, although for half his shift there is nothing doing, surplus omnibuses, cars, and carriages being withdrawn till the recurrence of the evening peak load or else running nearly empty; whether the extra cost of this change in working hours amounts to nearly £1,000,000, or the amount of the Government subsidy, and prevents the growth of traffic facilities for the peak-load hours; and whether, before permitting any increase of fares, he will insist that the traffic combine revert to their former practice of the double shift instead of paying what is in effect unemployed benefit?

It is the case that, until a little over 12 months ago, a considerable proportion of the men referred to worked split turns, covering the morning and evening peak-load periods. On the introduction of the eight-hour day, this practice, which was strongly opposed by the unions concerned, was limited to about 5 per cent. of the men in the case of the District Railway and the tubes, and in the case of the omnibus employés by the stipulation that the average spread-over in any individual case must not exceed 10 hours. It is impossible to give any accurate estimate of the additional cost involved. The limitation of the number of split turns necessarily limits the elasticity of the arrangements for covering both peak-load periods, but, in view of the fact that the present arrangements are governed by agreements which have been come to with the unions which represent the men concerned, a condition of the nature suggested by the hon. and learned Member cannot be imposed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the number of men employed in the combine is 17,500, that 25 per cent. of these are purely waste labour, and that the cost of paying these men £4 10s. a week is £1,000,000 per annum? Cannot he employ these men in increasing the facilities during the peak-load hours, instead of wasting their labour, and get the unions to be reasonable?

Liverpool and Manchester (Season Tickets)

asked the Minister of Transport whether he is aware that until very recently season tickets were available on all three routes between Liverpool and Manchester; whether this concession was given owing to the dislocation of services caused by the War; and whether he will order these advantages to be continued until railway services resume a pre-War standard?

I would refer the hon Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton West (Sir A. Bird) on 14th June, with regard to inter-availibility of season tickets between London, Birmingham, and Wolverhampton, of which I am sending him a copy. The same considerations apply in the case of season tickets between Liverpool and Manchester.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the services between Liverpool and Manchester are now about half what they were in pre-War days?

Traffic Census

asked the Minister of Transport whether instructions have been issued by him for all county, urban, and rural district councils to take a census of the traffic on the roads; if he will state what is the estimated cost of this; whether he is aware that, even in a very small rural district, the services of as many as 16 men are required for a week; with what object this census is being taken; and whether this burden is to fall on the local ratepayers?

No such general instructions have been issued. In certain cases, however, traffic statistics are essential in order that the merits of the application of the several local authorities to have their roads classified can be satisfactorily adjudicated upon and are being asked for. Requirements are, however, reduced to a minimum. The costs form part of the costs of the application for classification, and as such are borne by the highway authorities.

They have to pay because they wish to receive 50 per cent. of the cost of maintenance of first-class roads and 25 per cent. in the case of second-class roads.

I should not think there will be any extra cost on the local authorities, who, presumably, will be using their ordinary staff for the purpose.

asked the Minister of Transport whether arrangements could be made by which the Royal Automobile Club, the Automobile Association, and the Motor Union could assist in getting the necessary information for the census of traffic on roads by the use of their scouts, and so save a large amount of money which it is proposed to throw on the ratepayers?

I do not think it would be possible to make any general arrangement of the kind suggested by my hon. Friend. The arrangements for taking the census of traffic at the selected points in their areas are left to the highway authorities concerned.

Has the hon. Gentleman made an application to any one of those bodies? Does he not know that their services are always at his disposal in a matter of this sort?

I am quite aware that in the past they have rendered very valuable service. But this is not a matter where it was considered necessary to ask their help.

Is it not right to save as much expense as possible? [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no, no!"]

Steam Rollers

asked the Minister of Transport whether his Department has made representations to county surveyors advising them to purchase steam rollers rather than hire them; whether he has offered to give a larger proportion of the cost of steam rolling to those councils which have purchased rollers than to those which hire them; and, if so, what is his authority for embarking on this further policy of the extension of municipal trading?

No such representations or offers have been made to county surveyors generally. In certain cases where difficulties has arisen as to road-making plant, certain individual county surveyors may have been advised to consider the desirability of purchasing their own. A certain number of highway authorities have put forward proposals for the purchase of road-making plant, and where they were obviously advantageous, grants to cover a portion of the cost of purchase have been made from the Road Improvement Fund.

Will the hon. Gentleman answer my question: Whether his Department has instigated the purchase of rollers, and has informed certain councils that if they purchase rollers rather than hire them, they will get more out of the Government?

If my hon. Friend reads my answer, I think he will find that I have covered his points.

First-Class Tickets

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in the opinion of his Department, the retention of first-class railway fares on railways is justified on financial grounds, or whether, like second-class tickets, their abolition and the existence of only one class would tend to the more profitable conduct of the railways?

I have no information which suggests that the abolition of first-class accommodation would result in a net saving.

Education

Education Act

asked the Prime Minister whether, having regard to the commitments of the State on essential services since the Education Act was passed, he will consider the advisability of introducing a suspensory Bill with the object of postponing the operation of those parts of that Act which are not of pressing necessity until the country is in a position to meet the extra cost involved?

There is no more pressing necessity than measures for raising the standard of mental and physical efficiency in this country.

Non-Provided Schools

asked the President of the Board of Education whether any survey of the non-provided schools has taken place since 1905; and whether he receives complaints as to the accommodation provided in such schools?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The answer to the second part of the question is, speaking generally, in the negative, but the suspension or postponement of work upon buildings, during and in consequence of the War, is of course a serious matter in both non-provided and provided schools.

Central Schools, East Riding, Yorks

asked the President of the Board of Education whether it was at his suggestion or on his instigation that the education authority for the East Riding of Yorkshire have made proposals for erecting large and costly central schools in the East Riding and conveying children between 12 and 14 years of age, who are now being educated in their parish schools, to and from these new schools daily at a heavy expense; whether he has made any similar communications to any other educational authorities; if so, what were the terms thereof; whether he has caused any estimates to be made of the increased burden on the ratepayers and taxpayers involved in such schemes; and what is the amount thereof?

In a memorandum issued to local education authorities in July, 1919, the Board suggested that the authorities should include in their schemes a statement of the provision which they propose to make for fulfilling the obligation imposed upon them by Section 2 (1) ( a ) of the Education Act, 1918, to make provision for practical and advanced instruction in public elementary schools, by means of central schools, central or special classes, or otherwise. I have not instigated this or any other local education authority to incur any expenditure which is not necessary for the development of the public system of education. With regard to the last part of the question, the Board will obtain, in connection with the schemes submitted by the authorities under the Education Act, 1918, estimates of the cost of the proposals contained in the scheme, and before sanctioning particular proposals will have regard to the cost involved.

Will the right hon. Gentleman suggest to the local authorities that at a time like this, when we are exceedingly short of money, both taxpayers and ratepayers, they should postpone these very costly schemes until a more convenient season?

Is it a fact that the Board of Education brought forward, and the House passed, the recent Education Act without any estimates whatever as to the possible expenditure which would be incurred when the provisions came into force?

Has the right hon. Gentleman ever made an estimate of what will be the expense of his Education Act when it is working full blast?

That largely depends on the action taken by the local education authorities, which in turn will depend very largely on the sentiments of the ratepayers.

Will my right hon. Friend consider the desirability of scrapping all education, as it seems to be unpopular?

Having regard to the fact that 50 per cent. of the expenditure is from Imperial sources, surely the Government ought to have some idea as to the possible expenditure which will be incurred by this Act?

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question as to the postponement of any schemes involving excessive expenditure?

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that he is the most extravagant Minister sitting on that bench?

May we be informed whether or not the Government have any estimates as to the possible expenditure under the Act?

If the hon. Member will put his question down, he will get an answer. He cannot ask for estimates and figures and all that sort of thing without giving some sort of notice. If the hon. Member will put himself to the slight inconvenience of writing the question out in the Lobby on a piece of paper he will get a reply.

Is it not the ordinary practice for this House to pass Acts of Parliament without any regard to what the cost will be?

On a point of Order. I did not ask for any information of the figures. If I had I quite agree, with respect, that I should give notice, but I merely asked the Minister to inform the House whether any estimates had been obtained by the Education Office before this Act was passed.

Scholarships

asked the President of the Board of Education whether, having regard to the recently issued Regulation of the Board as to the award of scholarships to pupils in secondary schools and to the restriction of those scholarships to pupils in grant-aided secondary schools to the exclusion of pupils in other secondary schools even although such excluded schools may have been placed on the Board's recognised list, he has considered the effect of that Regulation in encouraging the excluded schools to accept Government grants and the consequent addition to the Educational Estimates which the new Regulation may impose; and whether, in view of the desirability of retaining in our national system of education efficient schools not in receipt of Government grants, he will explain why permission is refused to the pupils of such independent schools from competing on equal terms with the pupils of grant-aided schools for scholarships offered by the Board?

The object of the present scheme is to strengthen the connection of the grant-aided secondary schools with the Universities, and to provide greater facilities than have existed hitherto for enabling pupils in those schools to receive a university education. I do not anticipate that the suggested indirect effect upon the Board's Estimates will be at all considerable. The enlargement of the scheme and the establishment of a system of State scholarships open to all schools would involve important considerations both of principle and of finance, and though I have not overlooked its possibility I cannot in any way commit myself on the subject.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether these scholarships will be awarded on the results of competition or awarded by the Board without any competition?

Has my right hon. Friend considered that the effect of excluding these independent schools from competition for these scholarships will be to discourage them being carried on as independent schools, to bring them all within one rigid State system, and to produce the result that all of them, instead of being maintained from voluntary sources, will have to be maintained from taxation?

The object of the Board in establishing these scholarships was to raise the level in the schools that are now receiving grants from the State.

Chief Inspector (Wales)

asked the President of the Board of Education whether it is his intention that the duties of chief inspector of schools for Wales shall in future be undertaken by two officials; and, if so, upon what grounds he considers such a course advisable?

The filling of the vacancy caused by the death of Sir Owen Edwards is a matter of great importance which is receiving my careful consideration, but I have not yet come to a decision upon it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman, in considering this question, remember that two chief inspectors will cost twice as much as one, and also that there is one country called Wales, of which there is one Prince, and for which there is one Education Department, and that such a proposition as this will tend to division and a revival of prejudice and not unity?

Questions

Mr. Joseph Chamberlain (Statue)

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the commitments of the Government and the ever increasing burdens upon the taxpayer, he will consider the propriety, while finding the site, of leaving to private subscriptions the cost of the statue of the late Mr. Joseph Chamberlain to be erected within the precincts of Parliament?

I do not think that the suggestion in the question represents the view either of Members of this House or of the general public.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that very great statesmen in our time have had memorials placed here by private subscriptions, such as Lord Randolph Churchill and W. H. Smith?

Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)

asked the Prime Minister whether a customer ordering beer, wine, or spirits is still compelled to pay for the same before delivery; whether a representative of the trade is permitted to call on a would-be customer for orders as in prewar days; whether there is any limit placed upon the time at which the goods may be delivered; and, if any of these prohibitive regulations are still in force 20 months after the termination of the War, will the Government at once give instructions for their repeal in order that the public may again enjoy the privileges they desire?

The answer to the first and third parts of the question is in the affirmative and to the second in the negative. As regards the last part, I can add nothing to what has already been said in reply to questions on this subject.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that the great bulk of the people, while submitting to these restrictions during war-time, are strongly of opinion that they should now be taken off, and will he take steps to see that some alleviation is made with regard to them?

I am not quite sure that the hon. and gallant Gentleman accurately represents the views of the majority of the people of the country.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why it should help the cause of true temperance that I should be obliged to pay for a dozen of port wine before it is delivered to me and before it is sent from the wine merchants?

What right has even a majority to interfere with the liberties of the minority on a question of this kind?

Income Tax

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is a general rule that the profits of the married woman living with her husband shall be assessed and charged in his name unless she makes special application in special circumstances; and, if so, why in the case of married women-teachers, temporary civil servants, and others at the present time who have made no special application Income Tax is being deducted at the source?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and the Income Tax assessments in the case of the married women to whom the hon. Member refers, are, accordingly, made in the names of the husbands. But in various classes of cases Income Tax is actually collected by deduction at the source, and in this connection I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on this subject to the hon. Member for the Belper Division on the 8th July.

State Employes

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will say how many men and women are employed and paid out of moneys voted by Parliament, exclusive of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Post Office employés, with the corresponding figures for 1913–14?

The numbers of men and women, exclusive of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Post Office employés, employed in Government Departments on 1st August, 1914, were 61,899 and 5,665, respectively. The corresponding numbers for 1st June last are 105,965 and 52,627. These figures are exclusive of industrial employés in the dockyards and similar establishments.

Passports (Palestine)

asked the Under-secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a British subject travelling in Palestine requires a visé for his passport as a necessary preliminary to a visit to Es Salt, Kerak, or Petra; and, if so, whether that visé is French or Arabian?

The Inter national status of these places not having been decided, I am not in a position to Answer the question.

Persia (British Military Mission)

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give the House any information regarding the present position and activities of the British military mission in Persia; the expenditure of the British loan; and the bearing upon these questions of the continued Bolshevik pressure on and south of the Caspian coast?

The whole question is at this moment the subject of an active exchange of views between His Majesty's Government and the newly-formed Persian Cabinet, and in the meantime it would be premature to make any further statement on the subject beyond that which I gave the hon. and gallant Member for Central Hull on the 20th instant on the same subject.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when the House will receive any information on this subject?

No. As far as I am concerned, I shall be glad to have the opportunity for a statement.

May I ask whether the whole question of Bolshevist attacks in these regions does not depend on peace negotiations, and can the hon. Gentleman say what is happening in that direction, apart from Poland altogether?

Armenia

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can give any information as to the Report that the Russian Soviet Government has invaded Karabagh, Zangezour, and other districts be longing to or adjoining the Armenian Republic of Erivan, with a view to effecting a junction with the Turkish Nationalist troops?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if from August next all British Shipping will be barred from inter-port trade in Korea and trade between Korea and other parts of the Japanese Empire; and if His Majesty's Government has taken any steps to retain such rights and other open-door rights as were originally provided by the Treaty between England and Korea in 1883?

The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and to the second part in the negative, the annulment of our then existing Treaty with Korea and also Japan's right to close the coasting trade after a period of 10 years from 29th August, 1910, having both been accepted by His Majesty's Government at the time of annexation.

Is it not the fact that Japanese ships are permitted to indulge in inter-port trade with the Dominion of Australia and other countries, and in view of that fact, will he not take this matter into further consideration?

asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been drawn to the detailed charges recently published of long-continued torture of political prisoners, particularly Christian political prisoners, by the Japanese authorities in Korea; and if His Majesty's Government has any information concerning the truth or otherwise of this charge of torture?

Reports were received from various sources during the year 1919 of the torture of political offenders, Christian and other, in Korea, and urgent representations were more than once made to the Japanese Government on the subject. Assurances were received in reply which testified to the sincere intentions of the Japanese Government; and orders were issued by them on the subject which it is believed have had the desired effect.

Prostitution (Imprisonment)

asked the Home Secretary how many women accused of being prostitutes were committed to prison during the year 1918 in default of finding sureties for good behaviour?

Minnie Pit (Men's Bravery)

asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been called to what are described in the Minnie Pit Report as the outstanding cases of bravery of James Thomas Machin and Frank Halfpenny; and whether they will be, or have been, recommended for any reward or distinction?

Yes, Sir. The Report was submitted to my right hon. Friend, and the question of recommending the men in question for the grant of the Edward Medal will be carefully considered.

Food Supplies

Bacon

asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that Mr. Woodhouse stated in his speech that under private enterprise the quality of bacon would have been worse and the price higher than under Government control; and whether he will take steps to have this statement denied and the officer suitably reprimanded?

I have already answered two questions put by the hon. Member on this subject, and would refer him to the replies given on the 15th June and 28th June. The official referred to did not in fact make the statement attributed to him. The second part of the question does not, therefore, arise.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have seen a transcript of this paper in his office, and that this is an exact copy of it?

I am aware that my hon. Friend did call at the Ministry of Food and see the transcript of the shorthand notes, but he does not appear to have read it accurately.

Sugar

asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that quantities of sugar are lying in the warehouses in Blyth, Northumberland; and, if so, if he will release it for domestic purposes?

The sugar stored at Blyth forms part of the Government stocks required to maintain the regular distribution of the existing ration, and will in due course pass into consumption for domestic purposes.

Business of the House

On Monday and Tuesday we shall take the Report stage of the Finance Bill;

On Wednesday the Third Reading of the Finance Bill, and I hope some other Orders;

On Thursday the Report stage of the Ministry of Mines Bill, the Report stage of the Indemnity Bill, and other Orders.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Second Reading of the Irish Education Bill will be taken, or whether the Government mean to break their pledge in regard to it?

Both my right hon. Friend (the Prime Minister) and I have already said that there was no possibility of taking the Second Reading before the Adjournment, but we intend to proceed with the Bill.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the promised day will be given for a discussion of the Report of the Committee on National Expenditure in reference to the St. Omer dump?

I understand it has been chosen for one of the Supply days. We shall not have a Supply day this week, because it is necessary to get through a number of Bills which have to go to another place.

Can the right hon. Gentleman make any approximate statement as to when he expects the House to be able to adjourn?

I would like to be able to make something more than an approximate statement, but I am afraid I cannot do so.

Division No. 235.]

AYES.

[4.1 p.m.

Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C.

Edge, Captain William

Lyle-Samuel, Alexander

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A.

Archer-Shee, Lieut.-Colonel Martin

Edwards, John H. (Glam., Neath)

Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray

Ashley, Colonel Wilfrid W.

Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark)

M'Guffin, Samuel

Astor, Viscountess

Farquharson, Major A. C.

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Atkey, A. R.

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

M'Lean, Lieut.-Col. Charles W. W.

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gange, E. Stanley

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City of Lon.)

George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd

Macquisten, F. A.

Barlow, Sir Montague

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Mallalieu, F. W.

Barnston, Major Harry

Goff, Sir R. Park

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Beckett, Hon. Gervase

Gould, James C.

Matthews, David

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Grant, James A.

Mitchell, William Lane

Benn, Capt. Sir I. H., Bart. (Gr'nw'h)

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred M.

Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland

Greenwood, William (Stockport)

Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S.

Blake, Sir Francis Douglas

Greig, Colonel James William

Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith-

Gretton, Colonel John

Morris, Richard

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Gwynne, Rupert S.

Mosley, Oswald

Bridgeman, William Clive

Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)

Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen)

Brown, Captain D. C.

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by)

Murray, John (Leeds, West)

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Hancock, John George

Nall, Major Joseph

Butcher, Sir John George

Hanna, George Boyle

Neal, Arthur

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Haslam, Lewis

Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.)

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood)

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Parker, James

Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Clough, Robert

Hope, J. D. (Berwick & Haddington)

Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)

Coats, Sir Stuart

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Pennefather, De Fonblanque

Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)

Hudson, R. M.

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H.

Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton

Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid)

Jameson, J. Gordon

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Jellett, William Morgan

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page

Johnstone, Joseph

Raper, A. Baldwin

Curzon, Commander Viscount

Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington)

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln)

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Remer, J. R.

Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh)

Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey)

Rendall, Athelstan

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Joynson-Hicks, Sir William

Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)

Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.)

Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Dawes, James Arthur

King, Commander Henry Douglas

Rodger, A. K.

Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T.

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Rogers, Sir Hallewell

Dockrell, Sir Maurice

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Donald, Thompson

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Doyle, N. Grattan

Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n)

Sessoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the suspension of the eleven o'clock rule for the rest of the time before the Adjournment, or anything of that kind?

I hope by the end of the week to be able to say what business must be got through before the Adjournment.

Can the Leader of the House say when the Third Reading of the Ministry of Mines Bill will be taken?

I cannot say, but it will be as soon as possible after the Report stage.

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Proceedings on the Merchant Shipping (Scottish Fishing Boats) Bill and Public Libraries (Scotland) Bill be exempted at this day's Sitting from the provisions of Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]

The House divided: Ayes, 156; Noes, 46.

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Tryon, Major George Clement

Wolmer, Viscount

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor

Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon)

Sugden, W. H.

Wason, John Cathcart

Wood, Sir H. K. (Woolwich, West)

Surtees Brigadier-General H. C.

White, Lieut.-Col. G. D. (Southport)

Woods, Sir Robert

Sutherland, Sir William

Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield)

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Young, Sir Frederick W. (Swindon)

Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham)

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, west)

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Tickler, Thomas George

Winterton, Major Earl

Lord E. Talbot and Captain Guest.

NOES.

Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)

Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk)

Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Bottomley, Horatio W.

Hallas, Eldred

Robertson, John

Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.

Hartshorn, Vernon

Sexton, James

Briant, Frank

Hayday, Arthur

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)

Hirst, G. H.

Sitch, Charles H.

Cairns, John

Holmes, J. Stanley

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Cape, Thomas

Kelly, Edward J. (Donegal, East)

Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Devlin, Joseph

Kiley, James D.

Wedgwood, Colonel J. C.

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Lawson, John J.

Wignall, James

Finney, Samuel

Lunn, William

Wintringham, T.

Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)

Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

O'Connor, Thomas P.

Grundy, T. W.

Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Mr. Hogge and Mr. T. Shaw.

Finance Bill

I desire to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, with regard to a constitutional question arising upon the Finance Bill, which is down for the Report stage and Third Reading next week. You are aware that for many years it has been the custom to preface that Bill not with an ordinary preamble, but with something in the nature of a short address to His Majesty, in which we assure His Majesty that the Commons have freely and voluntarily granted Supplies. Until recent years we used to say that they have "cheerfully" done so. I make no comment on that point except that the preamble is not sacrosanct. I wish to point out that the address proceeds, having told His Majesty that we have freely and voluntarily granted these Supplies, to request and proclaim that it shall be enacted that these various duties should come into force

"by the King's Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal,"

Since the year 1911, by virtue of the Parliament Act, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal have had no power to give this House any advice in regard to money Bills and they are expressly prohibited from doing so. Therefore my submission is that this is an incorrect statement of Parliamentary law, and my question is whether it would be in order on the Report stage to put down an Amendment excluding the reference to the advice of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal. I think this is a point of some constitutional importance, and I ask your advice, Mr. Speaker, in regard to putting down an Amendment of that character. I desire to ask whether we are to abrogate the effect of the Parliament Act by still invoking the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in regard to a money Bill?

If the hon. Gentleman will look at the caption, he will see it runs thus:

"and do therefore most humbly beseech Your Majesty that it may be enacted, and be it enacted by the King's Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled."

It might be held that the advice refers to the Commons, and the consent to the Lords. Whether that be so or not, the point really is that this part of the Bill—the caption, I believe, is its proper technical title—is not submitted to the House at all, but forms part of the framework of the Bill. If it be desired at any time to alter the framework, that must be done by a special Bill for the purpose. The hon. Member will recollect that in the Parliament Act there was a special provision inserted for the alteration of the caption in the event of certain things happening; and, therefore, following that precedent, it would be necessary, if it be desired to alter this form of words, that it should be done by a special Bill.

I am much obliged to you, Sir, for the advice, and I venture, with great respect to repeat my question—whether I should be in order on the Report stage?

No, I thought I had explained that this part is not submitted to the House at all, but forms parts of the scaffolding, as it were, which is put up round the Bill, and is not submitted to the House, whilst the Bill is being built up.

I will introduce a Bill under the Ten Minutes Rule on Monday.

Firearms BILL [Lords]

Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee C.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 158.]

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 158.]

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 182.]

Agriculture Bill

Reported, with Amendments, from Standing Committee E.

Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 159.]

Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 159.]

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 181.]

Duplicands of Feu-Duties (Scotland) Bill

Lords Amendments to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 184.]

Bill Presented

Shops (Early Closing) Bill,

"to continue temporarily and give effect to certain Orders relating to the early closing of shops, and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Sir JOHN BAIRD; to be read a Second time To-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 183.]

Bills Reported

Edinburgh Boundaries Extension and Tramways (re-committed) Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Hertford Extension) Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be Read the Third time To-morrow.

Ministry of Health Provisional Order (Lincoln Extension) Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be Read the Third time To-morrow.

North British and Mercantile Insurance Company Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be Read the Third time.

Pontypridd Stipendiary Magistrates Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.

Bill to be read the Third time.

South Suburban Gas Bill [ Lords ],

Reported, with Amendments [Title amended]; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Londonderry Corporation Bill,

Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

Message from the Lords

That they have agreed to,—

Dundee Corporation Order Confirmation Bill, without Amendment.

That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to empower the Workington Harbour and Dock Board to construct a dock extension and other works; to confer upon that Board additional financial and other powers; and for other purposes." [Workington Harbour and Dock Bill [ Lords. ]

And also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the marriage of Richard Auchmuty Shekleton, of Rosebank, Holywood, County Down, Ireland, medical doctor, and recently a captain in the Royal Army Medical Corps, with Katherine Jessie Shekleton, his now wife, and to enable him to marry again; and for other purposes." [Shekleton's Divorce Bill [ Lords. ]

Workington Harbour and Dock Bill [ Lords ],

Read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

Shekleton's Divorce Bill [ Lords ],

Read the First time, to be read a Second time.

Orders of the Day

Supply [18th Allotted Day]

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1920–21.—[Progress.]

(Class 2.)

Chief Secretary's Office and Subordinate Departments

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £114,020, he granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expanses of the Offices of the Chief Secretary in Dublin and London (including Grants for the Higher Education of ex-Officers, etc.), of the Irish Public Health Council, and of the Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums, and Expenses under the Inebriates Acts."—[ Note. —£75,000 has been voted on account. ]

I beg to move, to reduce the Vote by £100.

I wish by this Amendment to indicate that I want to challenge the whole policy of the Government, and anybody who votes with me will vote against the policy of the Government, and anybody who votes against me will vote for the policy of the Government. I think, therefore, I have put the issue as broadly and as clearly as possible. Even in the short period that has elapsed since I gave notice of this Motion, grave events have happened, which, I think, have affirmed what is, I think, the general desire of the House, that we should have a full and frank discussion. Indeed, I believe I am only responding to what was felt to be the universal need in all parts of the House that that situation could be confronted by the House of Commons. There have been serious disturbances in Belfast. There have been speeches quite recently by the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson). It looks as if, in addition to all the horrors we have in Ireland, there is an attempt to add civil war in Ulster, leading to civil war elsewhere, and civil war on what is the most dangerous and most ignoble motive, namely, sectarian passion, and the Government, I regret to say, have recently made announcements which make one suspect that they are going, perhaps unconsciously, to enter into this work of promoting civil war. I see a statement made that they intend practically to recognise what are known as the Ulster Volunteers, to take them as part of the regular forces of the Crown, and in that way, I think, to add an amount of venom to an embittered situation upon which I cannot imagine any sane man embarking. We are all agreed as to the position. I do not suppose there is an hon. Member in this House who will get up and say that Ireland for the last two or three years, especially for the last two years, has not steadily descended into the abyss of anarchy and chaos. People differ as to the causes that have brought about that state of things, but I do not think anybody differs as to the existence of those conditions.

I am reminded of events of a similar kind that occurred in the years immediately preceding the Rebellion of 1798. Then, by the policy of Pitt and by the policy of Castlereagh and others, steps were taken to goad the people into rebellion. It was that rebellion that broke the power and destroyed the triumphs of Henry Grattan. Irish liberty was drowned in blood then, and it looks to me as if some people desired to drown Irish liberty in blood now. I look with horror and dismay on this situation. I believe that the evil consequences to Ireland, whatever may be the result of it, will be grave and enduring. If I break the silence which events have imposed upon me in this House, it is because I consider it my duty to give my warning to the Government as to what their policy is leading. I think no man in this House is better entitled to give this warning. I am one of the oldest survivors of a once great party which for 30 or 40 years saved Ireland from such a state of things. For 40 years we assisted various British Ministries by constitutional methods. For 40 years—for a longer period even, for 50 years, if I go back to the foundation of this movement by the late Isaac Butt—we have been, in three-fourths of Ireland, the dominating political force. I have often said to hon. friends of mine of Tory opinion from Ireland, not within the last two or three years, but for many years, that the only great force in Ireland which stood between peace and chaos and anarchy was the Irish Parliamentary party. Of course they laughed that state- ment to scorn, but I would call hon. Members' attention to the fact that up to 1915–16, during all these 40 or 50 years since 1870, there never was a rebellious movement in Ireland. I call attention to the fact that, with the single exception of the Phoenix Park murders of 1881, there was never a political murder in Ireland during that period. I have, of course, to admit that there were several agrarian crimes.

I repeat my observation that during all that period there was never a genuinely political murder, except the murders in Phœnix Park. Even hon. Gentlemen opposite who come from Ireland I do not think realise, or if they realise have never confessed it, the bitterness of the struggle which we had to conduct all through that period with the extremist and revolutionary party in Ireland. When our movement began, the revolutionary party was still something of a power in Ireland. It still had many of the leaders and some of the rank and file of the Fenian rebellion which had taken place a few years before. When our movement started, these gentlemen determined they would put it down. Isaac Butt was assaulted in addressing his future constituents; Parnell was assaulted, and Biggar, one of the well-known leaders at that time, was pelted with nuts. I remember that one of the things which impressed me most in my early days as a politician, when occupying a double-bedded room with the late Mr. Parnell in a small provincial town in Ireland, was seeing him take a revolver out of his pocket. He went armed for many years, and he went armed because he thought his life might be in danger from some impetuous fellow countryman. Those were the circumstances in which we had to conduct our struggle with the extremist party. We succeeded; we succeeded beyond the most sanguine hopes of anyone. We won practically all Ireland outside the northeast corner of Ulster. The extremist movement practically ceased to exist I believe there were a few extremists in Dublin, but they were all contained within the walls of a small cabin. They ceased to count. They ceased to count even in America, where revolutionary fervour in Irish affairs has always been stronger than in Ireland.

I have made, in the course of my life, six missions to America. I succeeded in everyone of the six except the last. On all of those occasions I was strongly opposed by the extremists, and I think I may say I was the most abused Irishman in politics, even more than the late Daniel O'Connell. In spite of all the insistent and violent opposition on the part of the extremists, we won. We won in America as well as in Ireland. I venture to say that at a single meeting in America, in a city like Philadelphia, any one of my colleagues, as well as myself, was able to raise a larger fund towards our movement than was raised in the whole year by the extremist organisation there. I saw most violent Irish-American movements when I was in America. I saw the most violent when I was in America during the War, but I suppose the Committee will be surprised to hear that at Irish-American Conventions in Chicago and other parts of America, so far had the process of reconciling the Irish and the English races proceeded, which was our purpose and our work, that resolutions were passed welcoming an alliance between the masses of the English people and the masses of the Irish people. In Australia the story was the same. In Canada it was the same. We won, for the constitutional movement and reconciliation between England and Ireland, practically the whole Irish race, and we had driven almost out of existence the extremist movement. I think we had a right to do it. We have given the land, back to the Irish people; we have got the University; and we have put the Home Rule Act on the Statute Book. I will put it to any hon. Gentleman in this Committee to-day whether, if he could be an omnipotent recaller of past times, he would not like to see the old Constitutional party in this House guiding the destinies and shaping the policies of the Irish people, instead of the revolutionary movement with which we are confronted to-day. I will tell the story, as briefly as I can, of how all this strife has come into the field, and how all this tranquil constitutional movement has been metamorphosed into the movement of to-day. I must give the first credit to the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson). No man has done more to help towards creating the extremist and revolutionary party in Ireland than the right hon. Gentleman. I must give credit, also, to the leaders of the Tory party who gave encouragement to his movement. I sometimes look with a strange kind of feeling at the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson). I am sure he is a man of kindly purpose. I must regard him as quite honest in his operations, because nobody could have talked so foolishly as he has done. I had the pleasure of congratulating the right hon. and learned Gentleman on having a son.

And I sometimes wonder whether, when the right hon. Gentleman looks into the eyes of his baby boy, the reflection ever comes to him of how many young men he has helped to send to death. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] There is no doubt the testimony is strong that it was the movement in Ulster that turned the balance, in the vacillating German minds, in favour of going into war.

If the right hon. Gentleman asks me my opinion, I say I believe it to be an unmitigated lie.

I do not question that that is the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman, but of course he is not an impartial person. My opinion is founded, among other things, on the statement of the Ambassador of the United States in Berlin, who was behind the scenes and who knew all the facts of the situation.

That has nothing to do with the business before the Committee. That business is to discuss the Government administration of Ireland for the financial year ending 31st March, 1921.

There is another factor which created the present situa- tion, and that was the conduct of the Government when the right hon. Gentleman started the rebellious movement in Ulster. I maintain that ever since the present Government came into office, they have gone in the face of our opinions and warnings expressed over and over again. Nothing has happened in the last two or three years that we did not foretell, and which they ought to have foreseen if they had had any judgment. These warnings did not begin yesterday or the day before. I am going to read to the Committee short extracts from two remarkable speeches. One was delivered by my late Friend, Mr. Redmond, who, in that speech warned the Government of that day, as I warn the Government of this day, that if Home Rule were not enacted and also brought into operation the extremist party, which he had been fighting all his life, would once more come into existence, and the only way to keep them from doing so was to give Ireland the measure of liberty which was embodied in the Home Rule Act. From the other speech the words I wish to quote are:—

"There are as many men here as would destroy the British Empire if they were united and did their utmost. We have no wish to destroy the British, we only want our freedom. We differ among ourselves on small points, but we agree that we want freedom, in some shape or other. There are two sections of us—one that would be content to remain under the British Government in our own land, another that never paid, and never will pay, homage to the King of England. I am of the latter, and everyone knows it. But I should think myself a traitor to my country if I did not answer the summons to this gathering, for it is clear to me that the Bill which we support to-day will be for the good of Ireland and that we shall be stronger with it than without it…let us unite and win a good Act from the British; I think it can be done. But if we are tricked this time, there is a party in Ireland, and I am one of them, that will advise the Gael to have no counsel or dealings with the Gall (the foreigner) for ever again, but to answer them henceforward with the strong hand and the sword's edge. Let the Gall understand that if we are cheated once more there will be red war in Ireland."

I suppose the Committee will be surprised when I tell it who delivered that speech. It was Mr. Patrick Pearse, and within two years and a few months of the delivery of that speech Patrick Pearse was at the head of a Provisional Government in the Post Office, and a week or two afterwards he was shot and in his grave, thus fulfilling exactly the forecast he gave. He was willing to accept the Home Rule Act of the Government, but he was ready to resist with arms if the hopes of the Irish people were falsified and the promises of the Government were broken. I invite my hon. Friends opposite, in view of these factors, to consider who are responsible for bringing about the condition of Ireland which I have described. They must see by a process of logic how the constitutional movement in Ireland has been broken and the revolutionary movement brought into existence with all its horrors, crimes and disasters. That is not the end of the story. You have had, during the last four years even, golden opportunities again and again of reconciling Ireland. You got them when the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) entered with me, at great political risks on both sides, into an arrangement for a temporary compromise. All Ireland, with some few exceptions, was ready to acquiesce in that arrangement, but it was broken down by the Leader of the House and other Members of the present Government. By your wild and insane efforts you created the Revolutionary party in Ireland when, in 1918, you passed the Conscription Act.

The answer is in the facts. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why were they so disloyal?"] They were made disloyal. You did not require conscription in the first years of the War for our boys or for the fellow citizens of the right hon. and learned Member for Belfast. My friend (Mr. Dillon), who was then a Member of this House, in speaking on that proposal of the Government, warned them what the results would be. His warnings were not listened to, and what was the result? Yet the hon. Member opposite asks, why should it not have been applied to Ireland? Again I say the answer is in the facts. You did not get one recruit out of Ireland under conscription, but you did recruit the army of Extremists by tens of thousands, and, in my opinion, the real begetters and progenitors of the Extremist movement in Ireland are the gentlemen from Ulster and Members of His Majesty's Government.

And so from that time forward the case of the constitutional movement was hopeless. Even then things had not got to be as bad as they are to-day. When the General Election returned a majority of Sinn Feiners in Ireland, I thought it a diaster to Ireland. I think so still, but I would have treated that position in a very different way from the manner in which the Government dealt with it. They proceeded to harry the country. They sent to gaol men who, no matter whether their opinions were sound or unsound, still were the representatives of the people. They made raids all over the country, and I have seen it stated there were as many as 20,000 in one year. Everything was done to harry the people. Now I am going to make a statement which I do not think will be contested, namely, that up to the time when the Government adopted the policy of making these provocative attacks on the people of Ireland there was no serious crime in Ireland. It was their policy that brought assassination into existence, and that brought the extreme party into existence. This is the story we have to tell to-day. There is one other element in it as to which I must say a word. The Irish are a suspicious people. Sometimes they are too suspicious, but they have no confidence in the good faith of the English Government, and I am bound, in my conscience, to admit that they have every reason for their disgust in relation to it. Every engagement in history between England and Ireland has been broken and violated from the Treaty of Limerick onwards. There was another treaty—the Act of 1914. There are some Acts which are so foolish and so dishonourable that one cannot find it possible to believe men will commit them. I thought so at one time. I was wrong. I thought that nobody of Englishmen could be found so foolish as to break the Treaty of 1914, upon the faith of which so many thousands of our soldiers fought and died for the flag. I did not think there could be any body of politicians perfidious and dishonourable enough to commit that crime. I was wrong. I will not speak of the conscience of the present Government. That is dead. It has been stifled under the condemnation of all parties in this House. But it is not dead in its effects on their policy. Ever since the announcement of this proposal on the part of the Government crime has steadily increased in Ireland, because people have come to the conclu- sion, a conclusion in which they are fully justified by the experience of the last fifty years, that they cannot expect good, faith from the judgment, patriotism or generosity of the British Parliament and of the British Ministers. No man can have faith in that policy. Does it satisfy anybody in Ireland? Ireland is disunited in many respect, but it is united on one thing, and that is, in its contempt and scorn of the present Government and its policy in Ireland. I have heard it observed that Ireland is irreconcilable. I wonder if hon. Gentlemen from England—I see there are very few in this House—I wonder if my right hon. and learned Friend opposite (Sir E. Carson) will say that this is the best tribunal to discuss the affairs of Ireland. I wonder why there are so few English Members present.

That is not the view I would put forward. In my opinion the reason that they do not come here is that they have absolute confidence in the Government.

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would not have made that personal remark to me. I have made strong remarks on his political character, but I have endeavoured as far as I can to avoid any personal observations in this House. But let me return to the point. I have heard it asked by Englishmen, "Why is Ireland irreconcilable?" I would put this point to Englishmen. Is not the converse proposition far nearer the truth? Over and over again Ireland has given you a chance of winning her heart and her affections and of securing her co-operation in your work. Over and over again you have rejected the offer. It is England which is irreconcilable, not Ireland. You have tried every policy in Ireland except the policy of justice, honour, and liberty.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman opposite that this is a very necessary Debate, but, honestly speaking, I cannot congratulate him upon his contribution to it He has gone back over the same old ground that he always traverses, but he has added nothing whatsoever as a suggestion to the solution of the present scandalous condition of affairs in Ireland. Nothing would give me more pleasure than to follow him into the résumé he has given, founded on false facts and assumptions, as regards what he is pleased to call the constitutional movement in Ireland, which, he says, has now come to grief, mainly through the exertions of myself. A most wonderful person I am! Not only have I a humble Irishman, brought about, according to the hon. Gentleman, the constitutional movement in Ireland, but I actually brought about the great War on the Continent which we have just concluded. I hope that at some future time there will be a recognition of my being the greatest man the whole Empire has seen for many years past. I will only say, in answer to the hon. Gentleman, that so long as I have been engaged in public life and in Irish politics, I have never yet known of a constitutional movement there. How short memories are! The hon. Gentleman said, "We succeeded by the constitutional movement in giving the land back to the people." Does he remember Mr. Gladstone, or one of the Members of his Government, talking of crime dogging the footsteps of the Land League? Does he remember that day after day this House and the country were thrilled with horror at old men and old women being dragged from their beds in Ireland, shot in the legs, and left to die? That was the constitutional movement to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

It is not really worth while going back to that, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is out of no disrespect to him that I do not prolong that subject. We have to grapple with the present situation in Ireland, and on that he threw no light whatsoever. I know he says it was the Ulster movement that brought it about. I will tell you what the commencement of it was. It was when the Liberal party came into power in 1906, and their first act, which the hon. Gentleman supported, was the repeal of the Arms Act, which allowed people in Ireland to arm. We opposed it with all our force, but the hon. Gentleman and his Leader, Mr. Dillon, said that it was necessary for the national movement. That was the beginning of the whole of what we are now suffering from in Ireland, and that has been put to the credit of those of us who opposed it. We found the whole South and West being handed back the actual arms that had been taken from them. We found members of the hon. Gentleman's party announcing that they would be very convenient if Ulster dared ever to resist what they are pleased to call their national rights; and that led to the arming of Ulster. That is the history and the origin of the whole matter. But, after all, I do not mind the gibes or the jeers of the hon. Gentleman, or of anyone else, as to the part that I took in the Ulster movement. I would do it over again, and, if time allowed, I believe I would persuade any man who is a student of history and of the liberty and freedom of peoples that I was right. If I had not done so, we would to-day be ground down under the heels of the murderous assassins who are now bringing Ireland into a condition of infamy amongst the nations of the world. Thank God I was able to save Ulster from those men! The hon. Gentleman also said that speeches of mine lately were calculated to bring about civil war in Ireland. What speeches?

I will tell you what I said on the 12th. I said that we would not allow ourselves in Ulster to be trampled upon by Sinn Fein; and we will not. I said, further, that it was the elementary duty of the Government to preserve Ulster, and Ulster's people of all classes, from Sinn Fein; and I say that it is their duty. I said that, if they did not do it, we were willing to help them to do it; and we offer to help them again now. I said, further, that, if they would not do it, or would not allow us to help them to do it, we would do it ourselves; and I say we have the right to do it if they do not. What is the first principle that every man has in regard to his liberty? It is self-defence. If a man comes up to strike you in the street, is it a crime because you prevent him, and try to knock him down? Ought you to say—this is what the hon. Gentleman opposite says—that you ought not to do that; you ought to call upon the law—go off and look for a policeman while he is all the lime attacking you? No, Sir.

I am not referring to what occurred in Queen's Island. I am referring to my speeches in Belfast, to every word of which I adhere. I am repeating to-day what I said as to the elementary rights of any citizen. The hon. Member for Falls asks me about Harland and Wolff. I will tell him all I know about Harland and Wolff, and I will tell him the difficulties I am placed in, if he does not know them, though I should have thought he had sufficient acumen to understand them. The other day a respected citizen of Londonderry, who was himself originally a Belfast man, had a young boy of 23 home from the War. While he was staying with his father on leave, after serving his country during the War, he was seized on the side of the road by Sinn Feiners, brought into a field, and riddled with bullets. That man and that boy were well known in Belfast. When I got to my home in London that evening after attending here in this House, I got a telegram from certain persons in Queen's Island, saying:

"We call upon you to call out the Ulster Volunteers and take revenge for the death of young MacKay"—

I think that was the name of this young man who had been so foully murdered. Do you wonder? Are we the only people who are never to have a feeling over these matters?

That has nothing to do with it. Did I do anything to incite that? On the contrary, I persuaded them to hold their hand, because I said I would press upon the Government their duty, as I do now, to protect all classes of His Majesty's subjects in Ireland; and for that reason they remained quiet. Does the hon. Gentleman really think—I know he can be as candid as any man—does he really think that he would gain, or that anyone would gain, anything in Ulster, if the people there lost their trust and confidence in me? I think that, if he looks back at the history of Ulster, he will see that it was since I became the leader there, and never before, that they have, at times of excitement, restrained themselves from these sporadic outbursts, these foolish outbursts, which were almost daily occurrences and recurrences in Ulster during previous years. Then what happened? A man in a family well known in Ulster, well beloved, who served his country with great distinction in the War, was wounded five times for his country, lost his arm—he is asked to go down, because he had ability, to try and help in Cork—to do what? To prevent policemen being murdered, and to enable the citizens to carry on their ordinary duties. He goes down there, and a speech that he makes is misrepresented. Whether it was misrepresented or not, assuming that it was the speech he made, the hon. Gentleman gets up and uses this House to call attention to it, and to concentrate the attention of the Irish rebels upon it.

The "Freeman's Journal" day by day hound this man down just as they did poor Allan Bell, whom I knew, and who was dragged out of a tramcar and foully murdered by the side of the road. The hon. Member opposite talks about my speeches; what about the "Freeman's Journal"—the hon. Member's organ?

Not yours, I know. You cannot expect the Ulster people to have no feeling. What happened? They held an indignation meeting yesterday, as I understand from the telegram I got, to protest against the murder of Colonel Smyth. Is it any wonder that that led to excitement? Is it any wonder that, finding men who belonged to the body of those who were the murderers of this man standing around, that should lead to retaliation? I deplore it; I do not want retaliation; but let us be reasonable.

What was happening yesterday? I wish the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. J. H. Thomas), who represents the railwaymen in this House, were here. In pursuance of the policy of Sinn Fein, the railwaymen refused to carry even the dead body of that assassinated hero. It had to be brought by motor all the way from Cork, to be buried in the cemetery where his relatives are buried. I know that nobody in this House approves of that. Hon. Members opposite know me too well to think that I am imputing that they approve of it. But I do say that, every time a policeman makes a mistake, or uses a word that you can easily catch hold of, to bring it up against them as if it were some crime, under the conditions in which they are serving in Ireland—I say that, if your are sincere, it is the worst disservice that you could do to the country.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman rise in the House, and back up my hon. Friend in asking that the House should discuss whether the speech had been delivered?

5.0 P.M.

I did not. I did not want these false statements to be going abroad. In my opinion—I know it is not worth much—it is deplorable the way in which police officials are criticised in Ireland. The perfection that exists in the minds of people in this House is marvellous. Above all things, I say to my right hon. Friend, do not allow any of your officers or police to be made scapegoats. No man ever gained more respect as Chief Secretary for Ireland than my right hon. Friend (Mr. Balfour). The first time I was ever in this House, at the time of the agrarian murders, when he was being attacked day after day, I remember him saying, "So long as men under the circumstances of Ireland are serving me faithfully, honestly, and to the best of their ability, I will defend them with all the ability that I can in this House," and that is the only way you will get your officers to do their duty.

After all, I want to deal with the special conditions in Ireland now. The murder of police and of magistrates—all this dreadful ordeal of assassination that is going on strikes the imagination naturally. They concentrate upon that as if that was the whole of what was going on. As regards the protection of life and property, I am not in a position to say more than this, that I do not think the Irish Government has yet succeeded in improving affairs. I am quite prepared to give my right hon. Friend full credit for this, that he is doing his best and is prepared to take all measures that he thinks necessary for the purpose of protecting life and property and bringing criminals to trial. I most earnestly hope that he has studied the history of the assizes that have just taken place throughout Ireland, and the utter and complete collapse of the administration of the law. The jurors and witnesses were intimidated and some of them kidnapped, as far as I understand, and the Judges were performing their duties with regiments of soldiers all round. That is a travesty of the administration of the law in any country. In that state of affairs, what does the right hon. Gentleman propose to substitute? It is no use going on to another assizes and having the same thing. "Too late" was the motto of the Prime Minister at one time. Are you too late in Ireland? It may be you are.

I am going to speak of Ireland in probably a more serious manner than I have ever spoken of it in this House before, because in all my long connection with it, and that means my whole life, I have never known anything like the state of anarchy and chaos and utter breakdown of all law and order and society in that country. You must, of course, protect life and property. That goes without saying, and I know it is a very difficult thing to do. It would be a difficult thing to do it here if the people took into their heads that by murdering officials they could bring about a different state of affairs. It is not very difficult to murder a man, as is proved by the quite open way in which it is done in Ireland. I am sure my right hon. Friend is concentrating on that, and I am sure he is asking for the necessary force to deal with that awful condition of affairs. But, in my opinion, the question has gone far beyond even the question of murder and assassination. What is the good in this House of pretending we do not see what is going on or trying to make a thing better or worse? You must get, if you can, a real picture of the situation. In my opinion, in three-quarters of Ireland the British Government has been entirely beaten. I say that most deliberately. If that is true, there are only two courses open. One is to surrender and the other is so to reorganise their forces that they will take care that they are not going to be beaten again. Surrender to an Irish Republic I believe to be impossible. I have seen many strange conversions in politics in this House and in this country, but I believe the idea of allowing Ireland, with her ports in the west and her ports facing you here, to become an independent Republic to be a matter on which the whole of this nation would rise in indignation; and if they did not, I believe it would be, because they had given up the idea of having an Empire at all. You have in three-quarters of Ireland the Government beaten, and you have more or less a Republic established. How are you dealing with it? I am not talking now of murder and assassination. Are you really grappling with it?

Let me take one or two instances. I read every day in the newspapers that county councils and corporations are proclaiming allegiance to the Irish Republic, and that they are the enemies of this country, and serve only that Republic, and refuse to obey the laws of this country in respect of taxation and other matters which are laid down to enable government to be carried on. I want to know what steps the Government have taken to put down these county councils? In my opinion, the moment a county council proclaims its allegiance to a foreign Government or to an independent Government, and the moment a county council says it no longer is a liege of His Majesty the King or loyal to this country, from that moment it becomes an absolutely illegal assembly. Are they going to be treated as illegal assemblies. The fact that you call them a county council does not make them a county council if they are not under this Parliament and under our King. I asked a question upon this subject on Monday, as to whether public funds were being paid to these unlawful assemblies. I believe some funds are being paid. Here is the answer I received: can assure you it is no joke. The right hon. Gentleman knows that as well as I do. But what I want to ask him specially is this. Are these county councils allowed to strike rates and enforce them, although they have declared allegiance to a Government independent of this country which has set them up? Are they allowed, having disavowed allegiance to this country, to make use of His Majesty's Courts to collect those rates? If you are not going to deal with this conspiracy, this revolution, which has succeeded to a certain extent in establishing an independent Republic throughout parts of Ireland, you are trifling with the matter. If you see that a county council has thrown over its allegiance and sworn allegiance to a new form of Government which is not recognised, then you should hold no truck with them of any kind, or treat them as if they were not valid bodies under the law. I do not care whether they were elected under the forms of law or not, they are illegal assemblies, treasonable assemblies, and they ought to be put down. The idea of these men going about to loyal citizens and collecting taxes from them is an outrage, and I hope the House will express condemnation of any such thing being done. These bodies, these corporations, and these county councils, unless you are going to allow a Republic to be set up, ought to-morrow, every one of them, to be dissolved, as illegal assemblies.

So far as regards the county councils. I come now to the next matter. I have stated that the administration of the law at the Assizes has entirely broken down, but other Courts have been set up by the Sinn Feiners. I have here now—I suppose my right hon. Friend has seen a copy—a statement issued with reference to what they call Republican Courts. Amongst others, before you can go in there, you have to sign this: doing to put them down? It cannot be that these Courts are being held and that you cannot get evidence of them. That is impossible. They sit day after day. I see that the Irish Bar had a meeting the other day, at which they discussed the question whether a member of the Irish Bar is guilty of professional misconduct or of a breach of professional etiquette in appearing before one of these tribunals.

That council is composed of elected representatives of the Bar. I really do not know what my hon. Friend means. Just fancy the Bar meeting together to discuss whether people are guilty of professional misconduct in going before a Court which disavows loyalty to His Majesty, and which sets up a foreign and independent authority in Ireland. It shows how far things have gone. But there is one other thing which I want to speak of. There are solicitors openly acting for these tribunals. What steps has the Attorney-General taken with reference to these solicitors and their licences, and what steps does he mean to take? Have any of them been reported to the Law Society? Have any of them been tried or arrested? I saw the other day an account in the papers—I do not know how far it is true—in which a party of police invaded one of these Courts and said that they would stop the proceedings of that Court unless the Court gave them liberty to be present. That is not the way things ought to be done. They ought to have smashed up the Court at once and arrested every man and brought him to justice. It is no use; you must do either of two things. You must give way to this conspiracy or else you must smash it. There is no halfway house, and I call upon the Government, in the name of people who, under great difficulties, are trying still to be loyal in Ireland, to go to the root of the matter and eradicate every element of these disloyal and treasonable institutions and organisations which are being set up.

There is one other matter which I ought to touch upon and it is this. Every day in Ireland people have been arrested by Sinn Feiners and taken oft to various places and intimidated into signing documents transferring their property at such prices as the Sinn Feiners may assess to other people who are more in favour of the Sinn Fein Executive. I have here a case sent to me this morning of a farmer who had bought his farm eleven years ago—I do not want to mention his name because we know what would happen to him if I did—but on the 20th of April, 1920, a mob of over 200 persons visited his house, forced an entrance, and compelled him by force of threats to sign a paper agreeing to give up his land. His life was threatened if he did not comply. The following day when passing through a certain village about 7 o'clock he was assaulted by another mob, who deliberately arrested him and forced him into a house in the village. There he was detained by a force and made to sign another agreement drawn up by a solicitor who was pressed along with others into the room in this house. This solicitor was in the house when this gentleman was brought in to sign this document, which contained a clause giving up possession of all his property in six months' time, and the solicitor forced him to take the sum of £100 out of his bank. What have you done to that solicitor? He is an officer of the High Court. Does my right hon. Friend know that? You may have difficulty about the others, but you can have no difficulty about him. The following day this man informed the police authorities, and all the facts of the case are now in the possession of the Government in Dublin Castle. He informed the police that he was willing and ready to prosecute many of the individuals whom he could identify, but before doing so he required police or military protection which was also a condition precedent to the beginning of proceedings to set aside the agreement exacted under duress. But has he secured that protection? Although this protection was promised him, he has been able to get no satisfaction from the authorities. You are always talking about want of evidence.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give me the name?

I will give you the papers. Here is the case of a man willing to come forward, if you will protect him, and yet he can get no satisfaction from Dublin Castle. On the 11th of July last this gentleman received a letter from the solicitor before mentioned requiring proof of his title, and stating that other steps would be taken unless his request were complied with. On the 12th of July last he had an interview with the Inspector-General at Dublin Castle, who promised to assist him, but up to the present no move has been made by the authorities. The trouble will begin when this man refuses to comply with the request of the solicitor. He will be in imminent danger of his life, and he and his family will be turned out on the roadside, or his house will be burnt over his head. This is not an isolated case; it is one of the many cases which are now taking place in this country. What I want to ask my right hon. Friend is this. Is he going to leave the burden of setting aside transactions of that kind to the individual? Is he going to tell this man, "You have got the Courts open to you: go and bring an action to set aside these transactions for duress." What would happen, even if he could do it? I say that the Government ought to pass a short Act that in every case—and there have been thousands of cases—of disposal of property through duress of that kind, the fiat of the Attorney-General puts an end to it, or something drastic of the same kind. To tell a man that the Courts are open to him, and to put him to the expense of that when he, as a taxpayer, has not received even the protection that would enable him to maintain his property is, I think, acting towards a subject in a way which at all events would not be tolerated on this side of the Channel.

That is not the only case. There are other cases. There are cases where county councils—these illegal assemblies—have refused to collect compensation. I understand a Bill has been brought in, but why has it not been run through? This House would pass it at once without the slightest delay. There is no one who would object to it.

I am sorry my hon. Friend would object to it, because I do not think it is generally in accordance with the kind of objection that he makes.

Unfortunately I can not stop to argue that, but I cannot agree with him. I had a letter the other day—I was glad to hear an answer at Question time as regards the different methods of treating widows and families of these poor assassinated people—I had a letter the other day from a woman and she told me that her husband had been assassinated in discharge of his duty. He was thirty-four years of age, and in the prime of life. He left her with two little children, and when she applied for compensation for herself she was told she would be given £39 a year. She asked if she could get anything for her children. She was told, "No." It is an outrage to give £39 a year in the present state of affairs to a widow and the dependants of a man who gave his life in the discharge of his duty. I was glad to hear what my right hon. Friend said to-day, and I hope he will look further into the treatment of these people in regard to pensions. I want to give him this concrete case. That woman made a claim for compensation, and she was awarded by the county court judge £2,000, but the county council or the corporation, I forget which, refused to collect it. How long is she to wait? Why has not the Bill been brought in long ago? I suggested it myself, certainly three months ago, and it was promised, but it has not yet been brought in.

The truth of the matter is, you go on treating those who have to carry out the executive in Ireland as if they were in the same position as those who are carrying out the executive in this country. You do not face facts. Believe me, if you go on treating your police and their widows in this fashion, you will come to utter grief. I remember, in the old constitutional times, when we had agrarian murders instead of police murders, many of these police pensioners were then serving under very great difficulties, and now they are starving on the wretched pensions which you have given them. I brought this matter before the House nearly a year ago, and the whole House was sympathetic about it, and we got promises. We put a new Bill through on the faith of those promises, and yet we have not yet got a single farthing. I receive letter after letter, day after day, from these people, letters of the most ghastly character, because the pensions were fixed under entirely different circumstances; and, what is more, the fact that they are ex-policemen prevents them and their families from getting employment which other people would get.

Not merely in the case of these properties which are taken away by duress must you have Government action. There are matters in regard to which you treat Ireland as if there were peace there. There was a county council election held the other day in Tyrone, and in places where the Unionists and Protestants were more or less isolated, everyone of them was served with a notice of death—I have seen the notice myself—if they dared to come in to vote. But people came in to vote in their names. They came in hundreds openly. There was open personation. There was no secret about it. I will say this for the Sinn Feiners. They certainly have methods which we had not in any previous agitation. They never abuse their opponents, and imagine that that is the way to carry on. They openly shoot or they come in openly and personate voters whom they have intimidated from going to the poll, as in Tyrone.

We ask a question about it, and what is the answer we get from the Attorney-General? The matter can be contested on a petition! I believe it is going to be contested on a petition, and I am told that it will cost £5,000 for these people to bring the petition. Petitions to get seats were intended to test questions which arise in places which are peaceable and under the law. They were not meant for places where people have set up an independent government, or have tried to set it up. In a case like that it was the duty of the Attorney-General—if he had not the powers he ought to have insisted upon getting them, and if the Government would not give them he ought to have come out of the Government—to come forward and say, "This is not a matter which can be done by a private individual. This is a great public matter. It is setting the whole law of the country at defiance. It is setting up against our tribunals and our organisations the organisations of a foreign Government. This is a great national question, and I will deal with it wholesale by seeing that the law is strong enough to enforce the principle that people who have these rights conferred upon them by Parliament shall not be interfered with in the discharge of their duty."

There is another case to which I would refer and it emphasises my point, that what is really at the back of the mistake we are making is that we are treating Ireland as if a republic had not been set up there. In the reference I am about to make what I say will probably be open to misconstruction. Certainly hon. Members opposite will try to misconstrue it. I will try to make it plain. I was sorry that my right hon. Friend (Sir H. Greenwood) said—I do not know that he exactly meant it—that Belfast and Ulster was the most difficult part of Ireland to deal with.

I said that Belfast was one of the most difficult areas in His Majesty's domains for a Chief Secretary who is only desirous of keeping the peace.

That is exactly what I object to. There is no truth or foundation in it. I must say, with great respect to my right hon. Friend—he knows I am a friend of his; I have been a friend at the Bar, and a friend for a long time—that a statement of that kind not only shows absolute ignorance, but it is very likely to lead to disastrous results. Why does he say it is the most difficult area compared with Cork?

Perhaps hon. Members on both sides will be good enough to observe the courtesies of Debate, and not to interrupt unless they have some relevant interjection, in which case they should ask the leave of the speaker in possession of the floor.

I am not in the least offended by my hon. Friend's observation. Does my right hon. Friend compare Belfast with Cork? He took some credit to himself for the 12th July celebrations having passed off peaceably. I was there, and I drove many miles to the place, and I was in the field where 120,000 people had collected. How many policemen do you think were there? Not one. What is more, there was not a single untoward incident that day. I did not know before, but I heard a gentleman state—he was a man who had lived all the time in Belfast—that never on any 12th July celebration has there ever been an untoward incident. Therefore, I think it is a mistake to describe Belfast in the way the right hon. Gentleman described it. My right hon. Friend and other Members of the Government in Ireland are always saying, "We must stand absolutely indifferent between the two political sections." That is a splendid platitude, but what does it mean with regard to Ireland? It means that one section in Ireland has openly declared war upon you. There is no question about that. I believe one of the bishops said in a sermon, an account of which I saw the other day—I do not vouch for it—that the murder of a policeman was "no harm because it was an act of war."

If the right hon. Gentleman knows he said it he must have read it somewhere. He was not in the congregation, I suppose?

I said that I read the report of the sermon. They are at war with you. I do not suppose that Members of the Government ever follow the American papers. De Valera, President of the Irish Republic, has said over and over again that they are at war with you. It has been said over and over again in Ireland, and many of these men who shoot the police believe that it is not murder, because they are at war with you. They think it is the same as if they were in the trenches shooting Germans. I believe that is the kind of view they take, and that they have no feeling of anxiety or horror as to its ever being brought to them as a crime hereafter. I hope they will find out their mistake. On the other hand, there is a section of people in Ireland who say, "We are anxious to help you," but the Government say, "We cannot allow you to help us. If we did we should not be standing indifferent between the enemies who want to fight us, and those people who want to help us." Was there ever a more absurd position? I foresaw months ago, from information which came to me, that there would be an attempt by the Sein Feiners to penetrate into Ulster. I foresaw that that would create a difficult situation. It would be absurd to say that it would not, because I feel perfectly certain that the Ulster people would not take it lying down, and I hope they will not, and I know they will not. But I do not want reprisals of any kind, because we know what would happen then in the South and the West, and the horrors and the bad feeling that would be created. I wrote a memorandum which I sent to the Leader of the House. I can produce it. I besought of him three months ago to face this question. I suggested to him that he ought to select the best men of the labouring classes as well as others in Belfast as soon as possible and bring them into co-operation with the law and let them work, not only to help the law but to keep back those who might be more difficult to restrain. Of course, it could not be accepted. "How could we stand indifferent between the Sinn Feiners and those people who are willing to give assistance if we did that." I believe that is a great mistake. You ought to have been only too glad to get help from anybody who is loyal.

There is one other matter which I must mention, though it does not relate to the immediate subject of the government of Ireland. It is a matter in regard to which I feel highly indignant with the Government because of the way they have treated it. I refer to the education question. The condition of affairs in relation to education in the North of Ireland is an admitted scandal. Thousands of children have no schools to go to; all over Ireland there are miserably-paid teachers, and the conditions are especially bad in a place like Belfast, because that city has been very progressive, has grown very quickly, and has now, I think, at least 450,000 inhabitants. I believe that there are from 20,000 to 30,000 children there who never go to school, for the simple reason that there are no schools to which they can go. I suppose I have brought this matter before the House since this Parliament was elected at least 10 or 15 times. I am bound to say that I have never had much of an audience. I told you that you had passed better education schemes for England and for Scotland, and against my protest you would not include Ireland, and I said it was unfair to leave Ireland behind in the race. What is more, you have done so much for teachers over here that all our best teachers are now leaving Ireland. Sixty per cent. from my own university, those trained there, came over here last year to get the benefit of the conditions here, and the refuse were left for the children in Ireland. Were it not that I suppose you are not afraid of us, we could not stand your conduct in the matter. I know that if I came here from day to day and proceeded to throw dust into your machine, you would have to give way, but because I do not adopt those tactics you do nothing. Why are Irish children less to be thought of than English or Scottish children? Has the neglect of this question nothing to do with some of the conditions prevailing in Ireland?

That is not all. We brought in a Bill last Session ourselves. It was brought in by one of my hon. Friends from Belfast to remedy the state of affairs in that city. It did not ask the Government for a single sixpence, but asked that the people of Belfast should be allowed to tax and rate themselves in order to provide schools. What did the Government do? The then Attorney-General said it was a very well-drafted Bill, and he gave us the usual compliments, which I loathe, because I know they always mean there is disaster ahead. I would rather you were rude—I do not mind how rude, if only you would do things. What happened? He said definitely that the Government had a Vice-regal Commission which was then reporting, or had reported, and he promised that upon the report of that inquiry they would frame an Education Bill for Ireland. He undertook, further, that if the Government were not able to get it through last Session, they would give time for the Belfast Bill to be got through, and at all events remedy the matter so far as the 20,000 or 30,000 children of Belfast were concerned. When the time came there was not a sign. We were told, "Too late this Session; wait for next Session." I remember that when the next Session came I met the Leader of the House, and I remember saying to him, "Do not forget your promise about the Education Bill. I hope it is in the King's Speech." I hope I am not giving him away when I say that he told me it was not. On reminding him of his promise, he said that he would see if it could be put in the Speech, and it was put in. Much good it was. Day by day and week by week we have pressed for it, and we are always told that the Government policy had not changed. I am sick to death of this sort of thing. Why do you not tell me that you do not mean to pass it? I know very well what you are doing. You are trying to square the hierarchy. You were doing it last week, and I will tell you how I know—because you invited representatives from Belfast to go down and meet representatives from the Castle. We got the invitation on the morning when the meeting was to be held, half an hour after the train had gone.

The invitation was sent, as I understood, by the Church of Ireland and some Presbyterian body jointly, who wished to meet me. I gladly accepted the opportunity of meeting them. It was not my fault if anything went wrong with the Presbyterian section of a joint deputation that I was only too pleased to meet.

I am not sure that we are talking of the same incident. I know another one has been appointed since. Let us not quibble over that; let us get to business. Where is your Bill? Deliver the goods, and I will forgive you all the rest. It is intolerable, it is wearying. Here are nine Members out of the ten from Belfast pressing you, without asking a penny of expense from you, to let us educate our children out of the rates, and you will not allow us to do so. Not a soul opposite will give us the slightest assistance, and the hon. Member for the Falls Division (Mr. Devlin) will not help us.

I know they are. I know the priests. I pay every respect to them. I know the priests of his Church take the greatest care that the children are educated, and kept well in hand. Our children do not want to be educated by the priests, or through the priests. We want them to be educated as they are educated here, out of the rates, and they are entitled to that, just as much as English children. So that the hon. Gentleman may not misconstrue what I am saying, let me state I do not object to any terms that may be made with his people, having regard to what they have done for themselves. All we know is that these thousands of children are not being educated, and that there are starving teachers. What a person to bring into a school to train the youth in Ireland— a poor woman who does not know where she will get her dinner, and probably has to go out and sing a song or hold a concert in order that she may be able to employ someone to wash out the room in which she has to teach the children next day! You know it all. It is before all these Commissions. Why you ever appoint Commissions is one of the things I do not understand. For all they ever produce I do not believe the Reports are worth the cost of printing. I have no way of compelling the Government to treat this question seriously. But the question is really not unconnected with the present condition of Ireland.

I have spoken seriously. Shortly stated, my case has been that you have been beaten, and are beaten, in two-thirds of Ireland; that a republic more or less has been set up in two-thirds of Ireland, creating complications which are going to have more far-reaching consequences very shortly. We want to know definitely to-day how you are going to deal with the matter. The sole question is not whether you are going to protect life and property, though that is a very grave question. God knows, I sympathise as much as anyone with the victims of these assassinations and murders. You have the whole thing there, the whole organisation of a republic. It may be only in a skeleton form. We call upon you to grapple with it and to put it down wherever it raises its head in any shape or form. If that is not your policy I am bound to tell you that the only other policy I can think of, and it is one which any loyal man is ashamed even to mention, is that you had better surrender. You cannot go on with the state of affairs in which we find ourselves, and if you are not able to grapple with the situation in Ireland, and you feel that you are beaten, I can see no alternative but that you should surrender, though I believe that the day when you do surrender will be the beginning of the end of the British Empire.

6.0 P.M.

I have listened during recent months to many speeches by the right hon. Gentleman who has just spoken. His contributions to these Irish controversies are invaluable, but I think it will be admitted by all impartial listeners that among the speeches he has delivered there never was in the history of any Parliamentary assembly a more powerful denunciation of, or a more irresistible case made against, English government than that which the right hon. Gentleman has just made. What is the story he has told? A story of universal disorder, the non-observance of the law, the establishment of Courts that refuse to recognise the Government, the universal uprising of popular opinion against the Executive, the revolt of the people against being ruled from this country, starving teachers and uneducated children, and no hope of a response to appeals for payment of the teachers and education of the children. There was not a single sentence in his speech which did not contain a powerful impeachment of the whole system of government in Ireland to-day. I confess that the right hon. Gentleman has reason to feel tragic and pathetic in the position which he occupies to-day, since he himself cannot deny that he has been the main contributing element to the creation of those conditions which he so eloquently recited to the House to-day. There have been many opportunities in the career of the right hon. Gentleman, a very long career and a very distinguished Parliamentary and legal career. During the last 40 years he has been a powerful influence in the politics of this Empire, and there have been many opportunities when he might have sought to secure some solution of this Irish problem. No one would have been better able to do it. He denies that he is a powerful personality, but I know that he is. He talks pathetically about not getting some wretched Education Bill, but everyone knows he could have had it if he wanted it, as he is the master of the situation. He controls the Government, he determines the affairs of the Empire, he is the leader of the reactionaries, and the reactionaries are the bosses of the Government. Everybody knows that. I object to the colossal modesty of the right hon. Gentleman in coming here and telling us how weak and feeble he is. We know that he is not weak, and we know that he is not feeble. We know that he is powerful, and if he had given only one-twentieth of that intensity and eloquence and ability which he has given to the keeping of this sore open to the curing of it, he would have conferred tremendous blessings upon the country, and he would have secured the gratitude of all lovers of that Empire to which he seems so much attached. In the course of his speech the right hon. Gentleman attributed the whole of the evils in Ireland to the Liberal Government. I think there is nothing so disgusting as the smirk and the smile upon the faces of ex-Radicals on that Bench opposite, and the Prime Minister in particular. He is not here to-day, and I refer to the last day when he was here. When I heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn standing up and delivering his terrific denunciations of those Liberals who carried on the Government for 10 years and were responsible for the Home Rule policy, and when I see them folding their arms upon the Ministerial Benches, and smiling at those denunciations, then I quite agree that the right hon. Gentleman is right when he has an absolute contempt for them. All of those Members to whom I refer, whether they are on the Ministerial Bench now, or whether they were on it in the past, or hope to be on it in the future, were responsible for this policy, which they destroyed at the behest, and orders of the right hon. Gentleman, namely, a policy of conciliation and pacification built upon the foundation of the right of the people to determine their own affairs. Therefore, when the right hon. Gentleman denounces the Liberal party, he denounces the gentlemen whom he follows and the Government of which he is the master. What did he say? He has been very violent in denouncing the conduct of the Sinn Feiners in drilling. The right hon. Gentleman does not include drilling? Does he drop that? Does he agree they ought to drill? I was always a constitutionalist; I sometimes am sorry that I am, and I do not think in these islands there is any room for constitutionalism. Moral suasion and real and genuine expression of democratic opinion, which endeavour to probe public questions in a spirit of thought and justice, have long since passed away The right hon. Gentleman can claim that not only has he destroyed the constitutional principle that was so long a striking feature in the mentality of this nation and of Ireland, but the principle of constitutionalism has been destroyed and the bedrock of constitutionalism has been torn up at its very roots in every country in Europe in consequence. The right hon. Gentleman knows that he started all this thing. He started the drilling. In one of his speeches he said, "I am not sorry for the drilling of those who are opposed to me in Ireland. "I have no right to complain of it; I started it with my own friends." I was told at the time that I was looking for revolution two and a half or three years ahead, and the right hon. Gentleman paid me a compliment for my candour. I can return the compliment. He has been perfectly candid. I must say he has never denied what he is or what he stood for. He stood for the right of Ulster to dominate Ireland, or if not, that Ulster would smash the Empire. That is what he stood for.

As the hon. Gentleman asks me, what I did was I organised Ulster to resist losing her place in the United Kingdom. I never asked to dominate the rest of Ireland at all. On the contrary I have always said that I preferred that we should be left out of the Home Rule Bill and be governed by this Parliament.

This army was organised, and this drilling took place and the whole scientific machinery of war was brought into operation to prevent the putting into operation of an Act of Parliament carried constitutionally through this House, and sanctioned by the will of the British people. That was what was done. I am not complaining about the right hon. Gentleman being an unconstitutionalist, or even a rebel. He is a man in a million, and has a right to be one or the other. What I do object to in this respect is that he should come to this House and denounce men from whom I differ myself. I would have a much greater right to denounce them because I never believed in unconstitutionalism, while the right hon. Gentleman was the master architect of unconstitutionalism. He drilled, he brought forces into operation, and the murders—[HON. MEMBERS: "Never!"]—You will hear all about it if you keep nice and silent just as at a religious service on the 12th July. The right hon. Gentleman and his gallant colleagues, the respectable anarchists of Belfast, members who sit in proud array, denounce the Sinn Feiners, while they gathered the whole of Belfast and organised the gun-running at Larne. When they took 40,000 German rifles into Larne, they only murdered one man.

One man died, and the reason why more men were not murdered was because nobody resisted them. The reason was because the right hon. Gentleman and the Tory party had the military forces, all the wealth of the employers of labour, and all the mighty forces of Belfast with all the mighty forces of England behind them. They were what I call the respectable anarchists. They had the support of the wealthy, the powerful, and the strong. Naturally there were no murders, because nobody came there to oppose them, but if the police had dared, or if the military had dared, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that in some of his speeches he dared the military to take action——

If the right hon. Gentleman likes, I will read some of his speeches from this Orange book.

Not this one. Since we are talking about education, I think it would have a splendid educative influence if Members of this House got copies of this book. It is known as the "Grammar of Anarchy," and it contains nothing whatever but speeches of Members of the present Government, leaders of the Tory party, distinguished plutocrats, undistinguished lords, and all sorts of other small fry.

On a point of Order. May I ask whether we are discussing the present condition of Ireland or the past?

In Irish discussions we do not always have the same prosaic relevance as on other occasions, but I will try to do my best.

In my opinion when the right hon. Gentleman comes to this House and wants to deal with a question of law and order, and of unconstitutionalism, and the methods by which crime, political crime, is to be put down, he ought to hand over that job to somebody else, because I do not think he has a clean sheet in this regard. He did not like an Act of Parliament passed; he did not want to be governed by the rest of Ireland. He organised a rebellion. Why should not the Sinn Feiners do the same if they want to? He was successful. They naturally would be fools not to try the same methods. That is why it was done. Therefore, when the House comes to the consideration of this question they have to consider where this idea took root. You have to remember who was first responsible for it. You must remember that this idea was born in loyal Ulster, and that for all the miseries and all the blood, and all the evil, and all the trouble and all the anguish and horror that has aroused the indignation of the world to-day on all Irish questions——

I am neither the keeper of Asquith's conscience nor of any other Englishman's conscience. All I know is that Ireland has been tricked, and Ireland has been betrayed by successive Governments, and we have been taught not to trust you. I care not on which Bench your leaders sit, you have used Ireland as a toy and an instrument by one party against another, and to-day you have brought on your name indelible disgrace by the condition to which you have brought that country. The Tory party used it. The right hon. Gentleman re-established their fallen fortunes when they were lost and destroyed in this country on every public issue. He came forward and raised the anti-Irish cry, and on that cry he gathered them back into power and into place. The whole thing from beginning to end has been a game of one set of British politicians against another, without one single statesman having the vision to see or the power to grasp or the instinct to understand. You may try your whips and scorpions in Ireland, you may introduce every form of coercion, suppress public feeling, break up public meetings, abolish trial by jury, go on and destroy every atom of constitutional government in the country, and do it from now till Doomsday, and you do not crush the indestructible passion for liberty of the Irish people, no matter where they are to be found. That is my answer to it all. You can have your discussions, you can gather round your dinner tables, you can come to the House of Commons, you can smugly content yourselves that the thing is ended, but it is not, and it never can be ended—you may take that from me and from the record of history that you cannot settle this question, as you cannot settle any other question, unless on right lines, and the one thing that has been forgotten in all these discussions is this, that you are dealing with a people who claim one thing, and that is their right to govern their own country according to their own will and sentiment. Are they not entitled to claim that? Was it not for this you went into the War? At least, you told us so. You told us a lot of things, but that was the purpose for which we were told you went into the War, and we helped you in that War.

I helped in the War more than the Noble Lord. I got recruits; he carried despatch boxes, and he did not do it very well, but when the Noble Lord says that Ireland did not give any help, does he mean that?

Characteristic. Of course, once you have started on the policy of extermination——

I recognise that the hon. Member is speaking to interruptions, but it has nothing really to do with the matter before the Committee, which is the present state of Ireland, and how far the present administration is at fault.

It was the interruptions which were leading the hon. Member off the point that I was deprecating.

Yes, I know. There are three or four of us in this House. This is the instinct of British fair play, and having destroyed liberty in Ireland and created chaos and disorder universally throughout the land, having got the whole of the Irish people throughout the world against you, when an Irish Member comes here to the House of Commons to speak frankly and candidly the things he will, he is turned upon by persons of this character, and he is contradicted in making a statement that is obvious to every intelligent member of society in these islands. I come from the drilling to the murders. I am opposed to murder. I do not care whether it is a policeman or a Cabinet Minister.

If hon. Members are unable to listen to other speeches they should not take their places in the Committee. We come here to listen to other views alternately.

I do not mind the interruptions in the least, but what I want to say is this. Will the Committee be surprised to know that there is not a single syllable in this book to which I have referred that contains anything but the speeches of Cabinet Ministers and Lords and Tories, and yet men have been prosecuted in Ireland for publishing it. What I assert is this, that there were Cabinet Ministers, and people who were not Cabinet Ministers, and people who wanted to be Cabinet Ministers, and people who will never be Cabinet Ministers, who delivered speeches inciting the mob to murder. Why, the Leader of the House himself declared that if the late Prime Minister and his colleagues, including the present Prime Minister, put the Home Rule Bill into operation they would be lynched in London. Another gentle method by which the right hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Asquith) was to be summarily dealt with was that he was to be hanged on a lamp post. No Sinn Feiner has hanged anybody on a lamp post; that was a luxury that was to be confined to a Prime Minister of this country. Another Noble Lord declared that any attempt whatever to put the Home Rule Act into operation would mean the assassination of Cabinet Ministers. I believe that that speech was made by the present Lord Chancellor, who is at present, I believe, entertaining all the members of the Episcopacy throughout the world. And these be your Gods in Israel. These are our leaders. These are the mighty men we are to follow. From them we are to drink in virtue, from them we are to learn lessons in law and order. Really the hyprocrisy is too colossal, and therefore I say that there is no use your approaching this question from the point of view of breaking up incidents which everyone in Ireland of every party deplores when you yourselves have been the guilty parties in the first instance. You started to drill against the English law, and you succeeded by drilling. When the Sinn Feiners in Ireland found that what they had constitutionally won they could not constitutionally secure, but that it was robbed from them by unconstitutional action, they started unconstitutional methods. Peasants in Ireland murder policemen. All murder is horrible and abhorrent to all men of decent instincts, but why did we not hear these terrific manifestations of horror of murder when incitements to murder were delivered by your Leaders in this House? Is it a virtue in British politicians in the Mother of Parliaments to preach one doctrine and a vice for untutored people in Ireland to preach the same doctrine?

On a point of Order, Mr. Chairman. In deference to your wishes we have treated the hon. Member with much more consideration than any speaker I have ever listened to in this House, and none but the hon. Member, in deference to the authority of the Chair, would have been suffered to proceed without constant interruption in making such a speech. I am obliged to ask if it is in Order to charge the Leader of the House or any Member of this House with incitement to murder.

I did not charge him with incitement. I said he made a speech inciting. I do not object to intelligent interruptions, or even brilliant interludes, but——

I think the whole matter has nothing to do with what we have met to discuss. The question is the administration of Ireland by the present Chief Secretary. The Debate was opened by a motion to reduce the Chief Secretary's salary by the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. O'Connor), and what we discuss must be something relevant to that.

On a point of Order. May I ask if you replied to the Noble Lord's question as to whether or not it is in order to accuse the Leader of the House of incitement to murder, when that accusation is untrue?

Such an accusation against the Leader of the House or against any person in the House would be out of order. I did not so hear what was stated by the hon. Member.

I understand the function of Parliament, when the salary of a Minister is put down, is to make that vote the foundation for a discussion of policy, and upon that principle I am proceeding to discuss the Irish policy of the Government, and if you allow the right hon. and learned Gentleman—again British fair-play. The Noble Lord was not in the Committee when the right hon. and learned Member for the Duncairn Division spoke for an hour and a half.

You were not in the Committee that time, and during that time none of us prevented him from saying what he liked. I suppose it is British fair play for four or five hundred of you to try and prevent a few Irish Members speaking here, but you will not put me down, I may tell you that. I did not make any charge against the Leader of the House of inciting to murder. I stated that he declared that there would be murder, and if that was not an incitement, I do not know what was. It was not only an incitement, but it was a prophecy, and the reason the prophecy was not fulfilled was because the Bill was not put into operation, for if it had, the late Prime Minister would have been hanged on a lamp post; that is, if these prophets were right, and not only he, but the present Prime Minister would have been hanged, and then who would have won the War? I venture to say now, looking back on it coldly and analytically, that that was a German plot against the present Prime Minister, so that you really see the natural indignation that anyone like me should feel that if the policy of murder, first eloquently adumbrated from these Benches, had been carried out, probably the Germans would have now been in possession of London. I will read the speech:

"No Government would dare to use troops against Ulster to drive them out. They know, as a matter of fact, that the Government which gave the order to employ troops for that purpose would run a great risk of being lynched in London."

That was the present Leader of the House. There is another eminent statesman in this House, the hon. and gallant Member for Finchley (Colonel Newman), who used these words, and he selected the appropriate place of Potters Bar to make his speech:

"If Mr. Asquith did employ the British Army he would break the back of the Army, and if by any chance he should bring bloodshed in Ulster by means of Imperial troops, then, to his mind, any man would be justified in shooting Mr. Asquith in the streets, of London."

There are a series of these speeches. That is not incitement to murder, simply because the speech was delivered in Posters Bar, under unintelligent circumstances, but if an ordinary Sinn Feiner makes a speech, and a murder follows, that is incitement to murder. I say frankly to the Committee, we had better be straight on this question. You yourselves allowed this policy of drilling and arming to go on in Ireland under respectable aristocratic ægis. You know yourselves that murder was justified and prophesied in this House. Then the spirit of your orations pierced their way into Ireland, and you are precisely now in a position of having your own doctrines accepted by the same people of Ireland under conditions infinitely more provocative than the conditions under which these speeches were delivered. What were the other things the right hon. Gentleman said? He said there was a collapse of the law. For years there was no law in Ireland—therefore nobody had any respect for it. It did not exist. He said there was no order. They started disorder—and there is no order! I am almost tired of repeating what seems to be a dictum of democracy that I thought was accepted universally throughout the world: there cannot be order unless order and law are based upon freedom. You cannot have institutions respected unless those institutions are the creation of the people. Is there a single Irishman to-day who has any say in the government of his own country—not one—not a single Irishman! There is not another civilised country in Europe or the world in the position in which Ireland is to-day!

Say something intelligent. Lord French does not govern the country. I do not know who governs the country. Lord French, I suppose, does not know who governs the country. I put a question once to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland some years ago as to who governed Ireland. He replied that he did not know. Nobody knows who governs the country. The whole thing is a fraud and a travesty. There is no one responsible to this House. During the controversies of the last two years, the Chief Secretary has transferred to the Law Officer of the Crown his responsibility.

The law officer transferred his responsibility to the competent military authority. None of them knew what the other was doing. There was no Government in the country at all, and there is none now. A solitary suggestion was made from these Benches, made, I suppose—you will not believe it, but it is true—as much in your interests as our own. There were those of us who hoped, and I am afraid hoped in vain, that the time would come when we would be able to exercise sufficient influence as to create a system of government in Ireland that would end this horrible strife that has for centuries existed between two people. Fervently we desired that this hideous chasm that divided the democratic thought and instinct of humanity in the two islands should be closed up, and that the two peoples should come together in a spirit of cameraderie and friendship, of humanitarian feeling, goodwill, and cooperation, for all the great causes for which they mutually stood. We might as well be crying in the wilderness. We came here with our 80 Members expressing year after year and election after election the constitutional voice of the nation. We were regarded as men in the house of our enemies, and in speaking for our country every one of us was suspect. You refused to believe the stories we told, and as to how things should be done. If you had listened to us things would have been different to-day. It is just the same now. I see it here: the same old hate, the same sense of British superiority, the same feeling that no Irishman knows anything about his country; the same spirit that the only way which you can deal with a Celt is to crush him.

Greater men than you have tried. Cromwell tried it. There was not a single powerful politician or military man who had anything to do with Ireland who did not try it. They did not succeed. The only policy that ever had a chance was a policy of trust in the people. We trusted you, and you betrayed us—always! My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool was quite right. He says we lost our power in Ireland because we trusted the word of British statesmen. That is quite true. We went to the people and told them that "at last your constitutional demand is about to be con ceded, having been won through the democratic sanction of the people of Great Britain: at last you are going to get what the country wants"—and we were turned down again!

I did not come here to-day to discuss what must, after all, now be regarded as a simple abstraction. I cannot speak with any spirit of hope in this Debate. Things have reached such a stage now in Ireland that an impasse has been reached. You have got yourselves into the greatest difficulty this country was ever in. Some one may find a solution for it. There may be some wise man to find a solution. I do not know what that solution is. But I am here not only as an Irish representative, but as a Belfast representative. I want to use the little power that my presence in this House affords me to demand justice and fair-play for many people in Belfast. I ask the right hon. Gentleman what he is going to do in Belfast? The right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Sir E. Carson) boasted how splendidly he performed the function of pacificator between the religious factions in the North of Ireland. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] Yes, I do not want to make any boast, but I contributed something to that result. [HON MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"] I think I did a great deal in Belfast, apart from politics in the Division, and the things that divide us, I did a great deal of work persuading the workmen to believe that there was some guarantee for their safety and advance. I have fought many times in this House for the economic and industrial interests of the people. That has done much to soften asperities in the North of Ireland and destroy that instinct for internecive strife which has been one of the blights on our public life in Ulster.

What has happened recently. There were very deplorable riots in Derry. The hon. Gentleman who spoke gave us a touching and eloquent picture of the Protestants who were killed in these riots. I could not be so touching. I could not be so eloquent, or I might give equally touching and remarkable pictures of the assassination of Catholics in Derry. [An HON. MEMBER: "NO!"] Yes, I could, dozens of them. But that has nothing to do with the case now. What it has to do with it is this: that when these riots were over there was a Conciliation Commission appointed by men of goodwill on both sides. What was the first thing that these Protestant and Catholic men did? They asked the holders of the demonstration on 12th July not to go on with the demonstration. They agreed, and did not go on with the demonstration. The same thing should have been done on 12th July at Belfast. [An HON. MEMBER: "NO!"] For years and years we held no nationalist demonstration in Belfast—none whatever! That largely accounts for the fact that there have been no riots, because when they were held—[ A laugh ]—it would not be such a joke if the hon. Member would allow me to finish my sentence—those at them were attacked and assailed for a time. You have peaceful demonstrations on 12th July now simply because nobody attempts to disturb them. What happened at this demonstration? Was the spirit of Derry shown in Belfast? Not at all. The right hon. Gentleman opposite went to Belfast and made a most provocative speech there. He told about the terrible machinery he would bring into operation to crush anyone who dared to raise a finger against him or his Friends when nobody ever interfered with him. I will not at this point enlarge upon what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I do not charge him with meaning it at all, but as a consequence of that speech those savage events took place in the city of Belfast by which large numbers of working men pursuing their ordinary avocations as citizens in the great shipyards have been in terror of their lives from an organised band of politicians. The great mass of the working men, I am sure, had nothing to do with this thing.

You talk about law. The primary function of law is to see that men are duly protected in the performance of their duty. You have not seen to that. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not in Ireland!"] The right hon. Gentleman read a document. I will ask him: what has he done? These men were driven from their employment on Queen's Island actually into the sea, and swam to the other side. There were miscreants there to attack them and try to push them back into the water. You may say these were reprisals if you were not calling for action against Sinn Fein. If the law is to be the supreme arbitrator, if order is to be preserved though the heavens fall, why is our military in Galway, in Cork, and in other centres throughout the country, and why were the military not here protecting these unoffending men who have done nothing but perform their duty t Because they belong to another religious persuasion! I know how the Chief Secretary regards this. But I want him to answer me now the questions which he did not answer me at question time. I want to know whether these men are to be brought back to their employment and protected there. Are those who assail them and try to drive them into the sea and keep them there to be brought to justice? You have the law operating in Belfast. You do not need to abolish trial by jury there. Your judges can be safe, and, therefore, I want to know is the same spirit of justice, law, and order to be applied to the city of Belfast that you claim you are applying to other centres throughout the country?

Ask the Chief Secretary. I am not in the Government. Ask the Leader of the House. He says the thing is "well in hand."

I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that. I was not here, but I read it in the newspapers. I must say that amongst the right hon. Gentleman's many splendid qualities he is not a prosy optimist. He certainly is not an optimist, yet he said the other day that things were improving.

Perhaps it is as well if I say exactly what I did say. What I said was that those who were controlling the forces that were endeavouring to restore order in Ireland were of opinion that they had matters better in hand.

If they had things better in hand, may I ask this. I do not know whether the hon. Member was in the House when I put my question, but I think he will admit that a minority has its rights. He was prepared to go to war in Ulster to defend the rights of minorities. The first right of a minority and an individual citizen is to be protected in the pursuit of their citizen occupation. I want to know why, in face of the possibilities of riots on Queen's Island, when the July holidays had been completed, there was not sufficient military and police protection for the small minority of the workers there. I want to know in the future, if your declarations about law and order are not as unmeaning as I believe them to be, what is to be done to prevent a recurrence of these incidents, which are a disgrace to humanity. You may read the records of all that has occurred in Munster, Leinster and Connaught, and you will not find the case of a single individual being assailed because of his religion. You may read of attacks upon the police, the magistrates and administrators of the law, but not a single attack has been made upon an individual Protestant because of his religion.

The right hon. Gentleman may say they were attacked because they were Sinn Feiners, but even so, they had no right to be attacked. I am not a Sinn Feiner and never was, but every man has a right to his own opinion. A republican may go out in the public highways of this great free country, and express his views, and the monarchy may be defended at the same place, and nothing will be done to them. Every man has a right to his opinion. This is not a war against crime, but against opinion. Even if every one of these people are Sinn Feiners they have a right to their opinion provided they do not interfere with anybody else. I say that they were not Sinn Feiners. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said that during the years of his leadership none of these horrors occurred, and he turned up his eyes in horror when the Chief Secretary declared that Belfast was one of the most difficult centres in the Empire. The Chief Secretary is a stranger in Ireland and he knows very little about it, but that is about the truest thing he ever said.

Belfast is unquestionably one of the most difficult places in the Empire. There have been more riots in a month in Belfast than in Cork, Dublin and Limerick during the last century. Is there any Chief Secretary who does not know something about what has happened in Belfast? It was a modest picture which the Chief Secretary painted when he said Belfast was a difficult place. I say the attack in Belfast was made, not because these men were Sinn Feiners, but because they were Catholics, and that is why they were attacked. If these men were Sinn Feiners I should not be in this House. My opponent was Mr. De Valera, and therefore these men could not have been Sinn Feiners. As long as I am in this House I shall raise my voice in violent protest against this cruel treatment of these men, and the infamy of a Government which, while howling about law and order, allows these men to be subjected to the persecution to which they were subjected yesterday, and which will be, I suppose, continued for some time.

I know this is a very strong thing to say. There is a general idea in Ireland that the Government is playing for a religious war in Ulster. I know the idea exists in the North of Ireland that if you can only get up a good religious row in the North of Ireland it would show how tremendously Irish opinion was divided, and how difficult it is to confer the advantage of self-government upon her. It is generally believed in Ireland, but I do not think it is true, and if it were true it would be one of the most hideous things in history if any Government at a time like this encouraged and fostered religious passions and differences and hatreds, and fomented those things at a time when every genuine Christian man is anxious for the destruction of this evil spirit and the eradication of all those feelings of bigotry and religious bitter- ness which have so long affected the public and private life of Ulster.

I would not interfere in the discussion at all, and I would not come to this House any more simply for the purpose of saying anything that I believe would have the slightest effect upon a single individual in this House. Here you are carrying peace to the world at Spa and a sword to Ireland. There is the dual policy, peace for the world and a sword for Ireland. You have settled the troubles of Europe, but you cannot settle your own. Here is a country at your very door which might have been a source of potential power and greatness for the Empire, and it was so at the time of the War. I remember with what enthusiasm I myself addressed recruiting meetings in every town and village in Ireland, and how splendidly our people rallied to the flag. It has been stated in this House that your policy of conscription exasperated the people, but if you look up the figures you will find that in comparison with the population you got a larger number of voluntary recruits from Ireland than you got in this country. That was where Ireland stood then. I feel no responsibility for the present condition of affairs, and neither do my colleagues on these Benches. We did what we conceived to be our duty. I think we were wrongly informed.

We were informed that the late War was a War for the rights of small nationalities to be free. We were informed that it was to be a War for the destruction of the military machine as a force in the government of the world. We were informed that Europe was to be drenched in blood in order that small nations might fashion out their own destinies according to the aspirations of their own people. These statements were lies. But on those statements we invited our people to take their stand, and they did it. While we may lose political power and even a remnant of us may disappear from this House, we have the spectacle of this great mother of Parliaments showing to the world that one of its most enlightened and most brilliant parts has turned its back upon you, and refuses to come within your doors. We have no responsibility and your troubles will grow. Your difficulties will become greater. You set yourselves, I believe, deliberately to break up the constitutional party—that is my deliberate opinion—and to destroy the con- stitutional movement which at all events ought to have been shown some gratitude for the part it played in the hour of your imperial emergency. You have still to grapple with the same unflinching spirit of the race which has fought for liberty all through the ages, and still fights for liberty, and in whatever form it comes it will be ours, and the sooner it comes the better it will be for you and for your Empire.

I regret if my intervention in this Debate may prevent any other hon. Members speaking. The arrangement was that we should discuss the Estimates until about eight o'clock. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I understood that that was the arrangement. At any rate, I think everyone will acquit me of any discourtesy in this matter. The hon. Member who has just resumed his seat (Mr. Devlin) and the hon. Member for the Scotland Division of Liverpool (Mr. O'Connor) do not, to my mind, appreciate the position they occupy in this House, and they do not do the Members of this House justice in urging that any of us are ungrateful for their efforts during the awful period of the War, and especially the earlier period. If those two hon. Members and other Irishmen are not identified with the government of Ireland now it is because they have always refused to identify themselves with any government of Ireland, and I can never understand why any Irish Members complain of the attitude of this House when they either refuse to attend the House, as many of them do now, or refuse to take any responsibility on this Bench. To me the Debate has been somewhat unreal. Let me read the last two telegrams I have received and bring the House to the same frame of mind that I have, and to realise that the position in Ireland at this moment is as grave as it possibly could be:

"A police patrol was fired upon in Ballina and Sergeant Armstrong was shot dead. Two other constables escaped. Captain Airey, of the Manchester Regiment, was wounded in an attack at Ballymena on the 20th and died at 6 p.m. yesterday evening."

I have no side. As soon as the confidence of this House is withdrawn from me, I shall leave this office. Let me deal with Belfast. Belfast, like every other part of Ireland, has a quota of police and military. As it happens, Belfast, I believe, has the largest quota of police and military in Ireland. It has been said that the riots which started yesterday were largely due to the murder and to the funeral of the late Colonel Smyth, who was done to death in Cork. Whatever the cause—I cannot go into that—it is my duty to try to maintain peace. Troops have been sent to Belfast. Troops were already in Belfast before the riots broke out. There is now a general officer in command in that city. Let me make clear to the Committee the only principle, as I understand it, that governs the administration of the law. Once you put an officer in charge of an area to maintain peace, it is your duty to do nothing less than support him in every way in your power, and that I will do in the case of Belfast. I shall back him up in every way I can. I will endorse his conduct in this House. In Belfast itself the riots have broken out again. No one can say when they will end, and no one can say the total number of deaths that may result. But to show that the military and the police are not taking sides in this question, already 57 arrests have been made, and the persons are in prison or on the way to prison. These soldiers and police will continue to make arrests and continue to do their duty in maintaining peace in Belfast. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not arrest Carson?" and "They cannot do that in other parts of Ireland!"] I hope the hon. Gentleman shares with me the regret that troops and police have difficulty in maintaining law in other parts of Ireland. I am bound to say that in the Northern part, both in Derry, where there is a Sinn Fein Council, and in Belfast, and in other places, we have been able to bring together the leaders of the two great creeds, and they have done their best to help to maintain order among their respective followers. It is said that the cause of the murder of Colonel Smyth in Cork was because of the speech he was alleged to have made. He was one of my trusted officers, and I cannot let this occasion pass without making a reference to the lying charge made against him by the Press which led to his assassination. He never said the words that were alleged against him, and I would not accept the depositions of constables who have resigned from the constabulary against the word of that gallant officer and other officers who were present. It is only fair to his memory to say that one of the last orders issued by him was an order condemning reprisals. Like the gallant officer he was, and like every officer who knows his business, he knew that reprisals are the one thing that no disciplined force can stand. I want to remind this Committee that Colonel Smyth went to the most disturbed part of Ireland under the orders of the Irish Government. He did his duty, and showed the courage which he had displayed in the field in France for years. He was attacked in the club in Cork, and, being a one-armed man, he was defenceless. The official report that I have shows that even then he rushed against his assailants and was shot down riddled with bullets. Colonel Smyth will ever remain in my memory, and in the memory of the people who have so loyally served the Irish Government, as a man who went down doing his duty, murdered by people who had not the slightest grounds for murdering him, and I know his name will ever be treasured at any rate by me, and I know by others, as long as courageous officers are honoured.

Might I, before I pass on to certain points that have been raised in the Debate—and I shall answer everyone frankly and, I hope, completely—pay a tribute to the Royal Irish Constabulary, military and the Dublin Metropolitan Police and to the Civil Service now carrying on in Ireland. In this House where everything seems so pleasant, quiet and well-ordered, I do not think Members realise the dangers which daily and hourly beset these officers of the State. The Royal Irish Constabulary has endured for years a trial never before put upon a force in the history of the world. They have conducted themselves courageously, and I think my first duty is to speak up for the officers and all ranks of that force who have so well served the country. May I also refer to this fact. Whilst there is a lack of moral courage among the masses of the people of Ireland, there are persons and groups of persons throughout Ireland who show an indi- vidual courage greater than I have ever noticed in any other part of this Empire. In daily terror and in hourly anxiety, they stick to their farms and their residences, and uphold the honour of this country. I pay a tribute to them. They include persons in both creeds. No one regrets more profoundly than I do as the Chief Secretary that I cannot always adequately protect these people with the forces we have at our hand. I agree with all the preceding speakers that the condition of Ireland was never worse. May I mention some factors which make the present condition different from any preceding condition in the history of that country. The introduction of motor cars has made it easier for criminals of the worst order to travel about the country, and to evade arrest. There are large numbers of young men who, I regret, did not serve in the Army during the War, who have not been able to emigrate during the period of the War, but who are now unfortunately deluded into the belief that they can defeat the forces of the Crown. There is a very large number of men carrying revolvers, hitherto almost unknown in the history of Ireland, and there is an unlimited supply of money in the control of the organisers of crime largely got from deluded persons in America.

The introduction of firearms into Ireland has been the fundamental crime in the recent history of that country. The fact that there is a very large number of people in Ireland with revolvers—most difficult weapons to detect and most deadly weapons in close combat—makes the protection of well-disposed persons one of the most difficult operations. You have the forces of the Crown operating in a terrorised country where arrest is difficult and evidence hard to secure. I must say that if the Sinn Fein movement has any policy at all, it is difficult to understand it, for the murders and outrages in Ireland committed in the name of Sinn Fein have isolated Ireland from the sympathy of the civilised world. I regret this profoundly. There is a country gifted by nature with all the sources of wealth that would make life not only comfortable, but prosperous and happy. I regret, as Chief Secretary, it does not flourish under my charge. At the moment the railways are slowing down, and complete cessation, except possibly in the North, is imminent. Trade is being slowly strangled, and the unnecessary, but certain, misery of unemployment is already staring us in the face. Certain local councils threaten to ignore the authority of the Government and defy the judgments of the Courts. This must inevitably lead to anarchy and ruin.

I come to what the Government is trying to do to meet that most deplorable state of affairs. I am going to ask the House of Commons, as soon as possible, to pass certain legislative measures, although it is not an easy thing to get a place on the already crowded Order Paper. We have introduced a Criminal Injuries (Ireland) Bill, which will enable us to intercept every grant paid by the Exchequer of this country to any body or any authority in Ireland which acts illegally. We have already taken steps to intercept all those payments to any authority which in any way acts illegally. I am also holding up certain other grants and loans until I am sure in certain specific cases that no illegality has been committed. The right hon. Member for the Duncairn Division dealt at some length with these points, and referred especially to certain county and other councils, and would, no doubt, include boards of guardians, that had denounced the Crown, and, indeed, threatened to defy the authority of the Crown. On that point, wherever a council acts illegally, it is very easy to deal with it, but whenever it talks as if it were going to act illegally and does not do so, then it is not easy to deal with it.

In my opinion it is. Every case of every council and every public authority in Ireland is being examined on its merits, and the most drastic action will be taken, where the occasion demands it, I can assure the Committee, to see not only that the authority but that the honour of the Crown is upheld in these councils and boards of guardians. Another Bill which I shall ask the House to consider and pass is to set up a Tribunal to supersede, where necessary, the Civil Courts where they have failed to function for various reasons, which I shall later on go into, during the recent assizes. When I first went to Ireland at the beginning of May it was a question whether or not the Assizes which commenced in July would be able to function. I thought it wise, and still think I was right, to wait until the Assizes failed before suggesting legislation to supersede these Civil Courts by another Tribunal.

That is a matter for the House of Commons to decide. I consider myself that one of the most serious things that can be done in a country's history is to take away the right of an individual to seek the safety and the remedy of the Courts of the country. It is clear now that whilst judges sit, whilst the officials of the Court are present, while sometimes witnesses are there, the jurors fail to appear because they are intimidated by the reign of the revolver. It is no use, therefore, attempting to carry on in the disturbed condition of Ireland, and to rely on the ordinary Courts of the Realm. I am convinced that we must proceed on other lines, and I shall submit to the House, on the earliest possible day, a Bill that will set up a Tribunal to deal with every criminal offence in the country, and to deal with it quickly. I hope by the Bill and by the speech with which I shall introduce it to persuade the House that this is the only way in which to bring criminals to justice. I am accused of going too slowly in this matter. I must confess I think it is the duty of a Minister to proceed in a matter of this kind carefully and without panic, and to proceed legally and always with the approval of this House and with the support, if possible, and I put great store on this, of all right thinking men in Ireland and throughout the Empire.

I have consulted with many right-thinking men in Ireland, who agree with everything I have said. I leave the realm of present legislation—for I consider the two Bills I have mentioned are most urgent—and come to two questions which have been raised in reference to our administration. I will deal with the question of the Sinn Fein courts which were referred to by the right hon. and learned Member for Duncairn. I can assure the Committee that wherever the police or the military find a Sinn Fein court in existence, they do their best to get evidence of the persons there, and proceedings will be taken against those persons. There is no question about it that most of these courts are acting illegally.

There are certain so-called courts to which matters have been referred by consent, and they are said to be arbitration courts, but that is not my experience of these courts. They are held under the auspices of the Irish Republic, and that, at once, makes them illegal. The administrative difficulty is to secure the necessary evidence to bring those who commit illegal acts to justice. Let me say one other word as to that. As the courts now exist in Ireland, and as the law now stands, it is difficult to lay any charge of a very serious nature against those particular courts. When I come to the legislation which I shall have to ask for, one will be able to act more drastically, one will be able to mete out in proven cases a punishment which I think is more adequate to the offence. The right hon. Member for Duncairn mentioned one or two cases in which men have been dispossessed of their land under threats, and under the auspices of the Sinn Fein courts. We find the greatest difficulty in getting individuals to come forward to give evidence of this fact, and if the right hon. Gentleman has any case of any individual, I guarantee him now all the police and military protection he wants, if he will come up and assist the Crown in endeavouring to carry out the law of the land. As things now stand in Ireland, the reign of terror is so widespread that it is with the greatest difficulty we can get any individuals to come forward, as they feel—and in many cases quite rightly—they are jeopardising their lives in trying to assist the administration of the law. I may say that any decision come to by the Sinn Fein courts is presumably illegal, and any transfer of title that follows the decision of those courts is illegal, and will be upset as soon as possible. Another question raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman was in reference to the Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners. He spoke of a very hard case of the widow of one of the assassinated constables who had a wretchedly small pension. I can hardly understand that. From the first day when I went to Ireland, I have applied myself to what I consider to be one of the most important branches of the Irish Government—the Royal Irish Constabulary.

I brought the case before the House in the form of a question and the facts were admitted.

These are the facts now. They have only just come into operation. Wherever a constable suffers death his widow at once receives from the date of his death two-thirds of his pay with a special allowance for the children. That is received up till the time the widow gets her compensation, which is awarded by a decision of the County Court judge. These payments are retrospective and they cover the case of every widow. I have myself made personal efforts, and will continue to do so to provide positions for the children, when they are old enough, of those gallant officers who have gone down in this deluge of crime in Ireland.

The compensation is awarded by the County Court judge, but it may be years before the widow gets her money from the local authorities, who refuse to levy a rate to pay it.

The widow will get two-thirds of her husband's pay and the payment goes on until the compensation is paid. These claims will come first on the intercepted grants where the local authorities refuse to levy a rate to pay the compensation to the widow. It is true, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman has said, many local authorities in Ireland refuse to levy rates in order to pay these amounts. The burden of these claims will not be lifted from the rateable area in which the crime is committed. Whether it takes one year or many years, the burden will remain and no innocent sufferer will be kept out of the money awarded as compensation. Grants will be intercepted and payments made out of them as soon as possible. With reference to the Royal Irish Constabulary pensioners, I agree with every word the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said. These men are not like pensioned policemen in this country who have always received preference in securing employment. In Ireland, unfortunately, in the present temper of the country they suffer the greatest disability, and sometimes they are boycotted. I feel this very strongly, and if I can I shall persuade the Government to make an exception in favour of this particular class, and I shall see that something is done for these old pensioners, many of whom are the fathers or relatives of constables, now serving, and whose families for generations have been associated with the police forces in Ireland. To conclude what I have to say in reference to what was said by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, he has made out, undoubtedly, a very good ease in regard to the Education Bill. That Bill is taking its chances, if I may say so, with many other Bills that are crowding the Order Paper——

There is no coercion in Ireland. There is not a soldier in Ireland to-day except for the purpose of protecting life.

It is a monstrous thing to suggest that those soldiers who are the mark of the assassin in these most difficult times in Irish history are there for coercion. They are not.

I must ask the hon. and gallant Member not to interrupt.

I rather deplore these interruptions. In the position I hold, I am not a man who endeavours to score on the ground of old party conflicts. As far as education is concerned, I have done my best to meet the demands of the teachers. The primary teachers are receiving nearly the, whole amount, namely, £350,000, for the year ending March, 1920, that they would have received had the Bill become law. As to the secondary teachers, the Treasury has agreed to the principle of paying them something. The difficulty is that, as Irish Members know, secondary schools in Ireland are controlled by managers, and successive Irish Secretaries have had the greatest difficulties in making grants to secondary school teachers that are not intercepted in part, rightly or wrongly, by the managers of those secondary schools. It is not the fault of the Government; it is not the fault of the Exchequer; it is the fault of the system in Ireland which makes it so difficult to make payments to teachers in secondary schools. The primary school teachers are paid direct; the secondary school teachers are paid by the managers, who, up to the present at any rate, have first received the cheque.

Would the right hon. Gentleman allow me to ask him one question? As I have told him, there are from 20,000 to 30,000 children in Belfast who have no schools to go to. I have told him that we were promised, more than a year ago, the Bill which we brought in, and which asks for nothing except that we should be allowed to put the money on the rates. If the Government will not pass their own Bill, will they allow us to tax ourselves and give time for our Bill?

On a point of Order. Is it your intention, Sir Edwin, to allow interruptions from Ulster, and not from this side of the House?

My intention is not to allow improper interruptions, and I consider that that was an improper interruption.

It has been stated from this Bench many times that the Bill will pass into law provided that it has the assent of the House of Commons. I cannot give priority to that Bill. If I had my way all Irish Bills would have priority. I am proud to be Ireland's champion. Let me say here that, in dealing with the deplorable state of Ireland, we must not forget this fundamental fact, that the majority of the Irish people are no party to this crime wave, and especially not to the assassination, burning, and outrage that are now going on. I believe they are terrorised by a few. It is the duty of the Government—if one fails in carrying out that duty it is not for want of will— to break that terror and to give the people of Ireland a chance to voice their real view. I do not want to take up the time of the Committee any further. Many other hon. Members wish to speak, and I hope they will direct their criticisms entirely at me, for, although the hon. Member for Falls talks about nobody governing Ireland, and the sense of British superiority in the government of Ireland——

We are doing the best we can for you in Belfast at all events. It is curious that, at the moment when the hon. Member is talking about a sense of British superiority in the Irish Government, the Lord Lieutenant is one of the most distinguished Irishmen that ever lived, the Commander-in-Chief is an Irishman, and the Chief Secretary is a Canadian.

At any rate that does not indicate the sense of British superiority that he so readily imputes to the Irish Government. We may differ as to the causes of the present state of Ireland. We may differ as to the best way of ultimately settling the Irish question. But I ask from everyone, in the House and out of the House, their united support for the Government in their effort to break the reign of terror and the rule of the assassin that is now in existence in a large part of Ireland. The wide questions of policy cannot be raised in this Debate by me, they are for the Cabinet to settle and for the Prime Minister to announce. But, as Chief Secretary, I shall continue to support, as I have always supported, the efforts of the police, the military, the civil servants, and all other officers of the Crown, and all well-disposed persons, to make life secure, and to rescue Ireland from the anarchy and misery into which she has fallen. The situation is bad, and it may grow worse. It may grow worse because the forces of the Crown are asserting the authority of the Government. The House and the United Kingdom—and I say this with profound regret, but because I wish to be frank with the House—the House and the United Kingdom must brace itself to face a bitter period in Irish history. There will be a determined and organised attempt to establish an Irish republic by means of murder and intimidation. The attempt will not be abandoned without a struggle. It can be defeated by the united determination of all parties and creeds to condemn and resolutely to oppose such savage methods, reserving, naturally, their right to decide as to the ultimate and best Government for Ireland. There never was a time when the Irish Executive, the British Cabinet, and, if I may venture to say so, the House of Commons, was more desirous of settling this age-long Irish question. I am sure we all welcome representations from all quarters as to the best way to settle it and save Ireland from ruin. In the meantime, as long as I have the honour to be Chief Secretary, I shall endeavour to do my best, under circumstances so difficult, that I appeal with confidence to this House for its united support.

The Chief Secretary, as well as other speakers who preceded him, made appeals to the House to consider the present position of Ireland, and the immense difficulties of those responsible for its Government, without regard to the events of preceding years. I fear, however, that it will be impossible for us to detach the circumstances as they presented themselves in Ulster in 1914 from the conditions in Ireland as they present themselves to-day. I do not want to pursue that theme, as it was dealt with at great length by my hon. Friend behind me who has recently addressed the House. Whilst his speech was declared to be irrelevant, its relevance is in the fact that the conduct of this House in 1914 can be cited as a justification for those who are committing serious acts against the law in Ireland to-day. I submit, to those who have any responsibility in the matter, that none of us can claim the right to respect the law only when it is in our favour, and to resist the law when it presents itself in opposition to our views. The decrees of Parliament, the deliberate decisions of this House, above all and at all times, should be respected and maintained by the members of this Assembly. Therefore, with all respect, I say to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn that he has lost the right to speak in this House about treasonable assemblies, illegal gatherings, or congregations of persons who are not exhibiting that respect for the law which at this moment he himself maintains. We cannot in one year say that if the law is opposed to us we will break it and every other law as well, and in another year pray that all law-abiding citizens shall conform to the decrees of this House.

The most powerful appeal that has ever been uttered for a system of governing Ireland was uttered earlier in this Debate by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn, and his indictment has not been answered. We have been told that in three-fourths—on one or two occasions he said two-thirds, but I will take the other figure—that in three-fourths of Ireland the British Government has been entirely beaten. I think, from the repeated lamentations of the Chief Secretary as to the physical impossibility of maintaining law there, that we shall have to regard that statement as true: and the challenge of the right hon. Gentleman has not been met. He said that in this the Government have to choose between surrender and so re-organising its forces as to enable the law to triumph over those resisting it. I do not think we are bound to either of those two courses. The Government may not be able to save itself but it can, by a change of its line of action, go far to save Ireland; and there is a third course which I would submit to the Chief Secretary. He appeals to this House to assist him to maintain law. He need not appeal to us to share with him in the denunciations of assassination and murder in which he has indulged. But he cannot hope that the law in Ireland will be either respected or upheld unless he secures the goodwill and consent of the Irish people themselves. The question of Ireland cannot be settled in Westminster; it cannot be settled in this country. It must be settled in Ireland itself, and the appeal should be to the masses of the Irish people, who do not approve of assassination, who do not condone these offences, but who, in face of this campaign of organised murder, is as helpless as the Chief Secretary himself for the purpose of detection or suppression. The appeal then must be by a change of policy on the part of the Government in relation to the Government of Ireland itself. What are the Irish people asking for? We are told, all that we fought for in the great long War. We claim that we prize nothing greater than the liberties we possess, and we have this Irish problem now because we are foolishly persisting in refusing to the Irish people this priceless possession which all countries in all parts of the world are entitled to enjoy. By merely pursuing the present line of policy in Ireland, for which the Government is answerable, some ultimate success in some degree may result. There may be a momentary triumph of force, but the right hon. Gentleman, I am sure, knows sufficient of Irish history to know that periodically force has triumphed in Ireland, public opinion has been annihilated and a period of exhaustion in the contest has been reached. But that was not the end. The end of such a contest never will be reached until the people of Ireland possess the responsibility of governing themselves. So that if the soldiery is going to be increased and the police force trebled and quadrupled, if every form of force for the purpose of the suppression of crime is enormously increased, that does not mean any real enduring victory for the law, for we shall have the Irish problem before us with the same elements, the same sense of nationality, the same undying determination to be a self-governing nation before this question is settled. Therefore the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) is rather evading the position when, in taking the particular instance of lawlessness, he tells the Chief Secretary that what he ought to do is to smash the lot.

I will take another instance in regard to Tuam. He says the real cure for the conduct of the population in that town was to make them pay compensation because they did not give to those who have the law to uphold the moral, and even the necessary physical support to carry the law out. How is it possible to arrest a town? How is it possible, with almost a unanimous public opinion against you, to carry out these rhetorical instructions? You have not gaols enough nor can you get Irishmen in Ireland to build them there. They will not assist you in carrying out the law upon these lines. The real cure for the trouble is not the further employment of force, which cannot uphold the law. The law can only rest upon the general acceptance by the people of the law as it stands. Until you have changed the moral attitude of the Irish people, you cannot expect any enforcement of the provisions of the law by the ordinary instruments of force. The two things that we commonly hear in the speeches of Ministers on this Irish problem are that it is their duty to uphold the law and that it is their duty to maintain the union as between Ireland and England. There never was a union between Ireland and England in reality, there is not a union in existence now and there never will be a union until the two peoples are equally free and possessed of equal rights to determine their destiny and their form of government. Let us, therefore, establish a union by recognising the equal rights of people to the same degree of liberty in regard to the management of their own affairs. In spite of experience, we have Ministers and Cabinets trying to employ this utterly incompetent instrument. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) says the Government has lost the fight in three-fourths of Ireland, and I think it is about time his challenge to the Government was faced and not really evaded, as it has been, by the pitiful appeals of the Chief Secretary for the support of this House. Of course, this Debate cannot take the ordinary course of challenging ordinary acts of administration on the part of the Irish Executive during the course of the year, because the question presents itself in the light of a problem bigger than any ordinary events, terrible as many of them are, which occur in Ireland almost day by day, and I will therefore suggest to the Chief Secretary that he should persist in the appeal with which he closed his speech this afternoon in saying that it is for the Prime Minister to announce a policy and let him press that idea in the spirit of true Home Rule, and by that means enlist the support of whole masses of the Irish people for the administration and for respect to the law in that country.

8.0 P.M.

I regret very much that this most interesting Debate has largely developed into a duel between the right hon. Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) and the hon. Members (Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Devlin). We did not come here to-day to discuss the differences between the two opposing sections of Ireland, whether they were right or whether they were wrong. I submit that we ordinary English Members of Parliament came here to ascertain and discuss whether His Majesty's Government, and the Irish Office in particular, have during the last two or three months carried out the wishes of this House by maintaining law and order in Ireland, by giving protection to minorities, by safeguarding the rights of property, and by enabling people in Ireland to live under the same conditions as we do in England, and that is the point we ought to discuss—whether the Chief Secretary and those under him have carried out their duties or whether they have not. Though the right hon. Gentleman's speech has been full of promises, full of hope, and full of brave determination, yet I maintain that you must judge a Government office, not by what it says it is going to do, but by what it has done during the last two or three months. During the last three months, in my opinion, the Irish Government have manifestly failed on two occasions to carry out what I should imagine were the wishes of this Committee, namely, in the matter of the grave riots in Londonderry, and also in a matter which has escaped the attention of most hon. Members, namely, the amazing action of the Government in the release of the hunger strikers from Mountjoy Prison in middle April last. I have here a letter which I received last night from one who in the past was a Member of the House. He was not a Member of the Ulster party. If anything, he belonged to the party to which the hon. Member (Mr. O'Connor) belongs. He is a man of considerable standing, and well known in the North of Ireland, and he pours unsparing condemnation on the action of the Executive. May I read an extract from his letter in reference to Londonderry? That was a matter of very considerable importance, and, indeed, justified a Motion for the Adjournment of the House. He writes: when this information came to them that there was a danger of an outbreak, they did not arrest the ringleaders and stop the outbreak? If they did not know of it, they ought to have known of it. It was common knowledge to the whole of the North of Ireland—

My next point is about the hunger strikes. It seems to me the Government have absolutely played into the hands of the Sinn Feiners on hunger strikes. Last autumn, the Government of Ireland, under the direction of the present Minister of Pensions, came to the very wise decision that if a prisoner choose not to take his food it was his look-out, and that if he died he had to take the consequences of it. That is so elementary a proposition that one is almost ashamed to put it to the Committee. The consequence of that was that there was no hunger-striking. One or two people tried hunger-striking in Mountjoy and other places, but they soon found that the authorities meant business and they gave over. Then, for reasons which I need not go into now, the present Minister of Pensions was removed, and another Chief Secretary and another Commander-in-Chief were appointed. When the new Commander-in-Chief and the new Chief Secretary took office, what did Sinn Feiners do? Being extremely able men, they said, "Let us try another hunger strike. We can be no worse off. We may 'bounce' the new Government." They did start a hunger strike in Mountjoy and in other places, but I am told the hunger strike was not nearly so bad, as it was supposed many of the warders introduced food for the hunger strikers, and therefore they were not in such extreme peril as was urged. Then General Macready arrived, on the Tuesday, and on the Wednesday—I do not know whether it was post hoc or propter hoc , but, at any rate, on Wednesday, the 14th April—66 hunger strikers were released, of whom more than half had been convicted of treasonable and seditious crimes. If a Government is going to allow persons convicted of treasonable and seditious crime—I leave out people arrested on suspicion for political offences—to be let out without any conditions at all except verbal parole—and a verbal parole is no good from a murderer and sedition-monger—it is abdicating the very primary functions of government, namely, to see that murderers and malefactors are properly punished. The matter was raised in this House, naturally there was indignation amongst hon. Members of all parties, and the Leader of the House came down and informed us, as far as I can recollect, that it had all occurred over some muddled orders, or some mistake. He also informed me, in answer to a question a few weeks afterwards, that anyone who refused to take his food and went on hunger-strike must take the consequences. It seemed all right. A mistake was made; it was going to be put right. What is the position now? According to an answer I received from the Attorney-General for Ireland, since the middle of April 16 more hunger-strikers, all convicted prisoners, have been released, some on verbal parole and some under what is called the "Cat and Mouse Act" of 1913, and not one of those 16 people who were released have been re-arrested. Although I am not in accord with the speeches made by hon. Members on the other side, I feel that I must vote with them for a reduction of the Estimates of a Government which releases, and goes on releasing, convicted prisoners, and I shall await the answer of the right hon. Gentleman on this point with the greatest interest, because it seems to me that if I am in Ireland and if I am convicted I have only got to go on hunger-strike for two or three days to be let out, and no further punishment is going to be inflicted on me.

What have the Government done to one of the most trusted officials, Sir John Taylor, a capable, strong man, who was the only man in the Castle who knew his own mind, and who was really keen on the necessity of maintaining law and order? He was told that he could go on perpetual leave. He has been got rid or because he was too strong, because he was not pliant. I frankly despair of a Government, however brave its declarations, which acts as it acted in Londonderry, as it acted with regard to the hunger-strikers, and as it acted in getting rid of Sir John Taylor, who was one of the most capable and upright officials ever found in Dublin Castle. In spite of the lurid picture painted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Duncairn (Sir E. Carson), I am not sure that hon. Members who live in England, Scotland or Wales, and do not read the Irish papers as constantly as I do, have any idea of the really appalling, savage, unheard-of condition of Ireland at the present moment. The Irish Government would take the credit if the state of Ireland were good, and they must take the blame if the state of Ireland is bad.

Last night I took up the last Irish paper which had come into my hands. It was last Monday's paper, and I would like to read to the Committee a catalogue of the murders, woundings, and outrages which I myself extracted from it, from one Dublin morning paper. It is not a catalogue of outrages massed together or on any selected day, but chosen from the last paper which happened to come into my hands. First, there was the terrible murder of Colonel Smyth, and I must, in one sentence, pay my tribute to that most gallant man, a thorough gentleman, beloved by everybody who served with him in the Army, and whose memory will remain for years and years in the division in which he fought in France. Then there was the murder of a constable when going home on leave in Galway. He was shot. A labourer was shot in Cork, it is alleged, at the hands of a military patrol, because he had not answered the challenge. Then there is the wounding of Mr. Craig, the inspector who was wounded in the Cork Club at the same time as Colonel Smyth was shot. There were 20 people wounded in Cork in some trouble with the military and police. Two soldiers of a patrol in Mayo were severely wounded and two constables shot dangerously, in an ambush, in County Kerry. All these were from one morning paper. There were three killed and 25 wounded. That is the actual damage to life and limb. Then there are the raids by armed men. Successful raid for arms at Kingstown station; a great deal of shooting but no casualties. Mails seized at Burton point railway station. Mails seized at Donoughmore, County Tyrone, railway station. Mails and military baggage seized on railway, near Ennis. Hospital equipment seized from train at Carrowmore, County Sligo. Five wagon loads of hay burnt near Templemore station, County Tipperary. Ammunition seized at Longford station. There is a list of seven raids on arms, mails, and other things. Armed men kidnap driver and fireman of a train at Inniskeen, County Monaghan. They were kidnapped because they had driven a train on which were some policemen. Armed men fire shots into railway carriage at Waterfall station in County Cork, and the only reason that can possibly be alleged is because a soldier in uniform and his friend were sitting in the carriage. Bomb explodes in Arklow, much damage to many houses in main street. Two private houses maliciously destroyed by fire, one of large size and with valuable furniture. Three soldiers attacked in Sackville Street, Dublin, and roughly handled. Anglo-American Oil Company lose 300 gallons petrol, looted by armed men. Two military motor lorries, without armed guard, held up and burnt near Cork. Armed men raid and rob the Post Office, two postmen, one mail car. Burning of one vacated police barracks and two court houses. Two military motor lorries without armed escort held up and burnt near Cork. A land agent and his caretaker kidnapped in County Kerry, who have not been recovered. Not one arrest has been made in connection with any of these outrages.

I should have more faith in the professions of the Chief Secretary and his Government if in the past they had succeeded in maintaining any sort of law and order in the country, but we must judge them by what happens and not by what they say they have done. Take the case of the Post Office. I am sorry to trouble the Committee with so many details, but it is only by going into the facts that hon. Members can be really induced to understand the terrible condition of Ireland. Between the 1st October, 1919, and the 31st May of this year there were 158 robberies committed in connection with the Post Office in Ireland. Of the above number, 70 were from post offices, 25 from postmen, 53 from mail carts, and 10 from railway trains, involving a net loss of £4,664. No fewer than 142 registered letters sent by private persons were stolen, of the approximate value of £460. We all know the state of the Post Office in Ireland. Not one of us can hope to send a letter to anybody in Ireland who is a loyalist or who is well known to be in favour of law and order without having that letter opened or without the letter reaching its destination. In a previous Debate I told the story of a fund, in which I am interested, which has for its object the helping of some of these unfortunate people to get away from Ireland to England. On two occasions we wrote letters and we sent two telegrams to a certain person, but we could not get any answer. Neither the letters nor the telegrams were delivered, and it was only by using the military that we were able to get any communication over and to bring the people over here. There is the case of the right hon. Gentleman's correspondence with the Lord Lieutenant being raided and taken away by armed men.

I would ask the Members of the Labour party to take note of the case which I am about to cite. They must not make the mistake of thinking that the terrible agrarian outrages which are being committed in Ireland at the present time are being mostly committed against what is known as the landlord class or the big man, but just as much, if not more, against the small tenant farmer, the decent man who has bought his holding. These outrages are being committed by Bolsheviks, who mean to rob that man of his land and to divide it up amongst themselves. The case which I am about to quote is one of the most piteous cases I have ever come across. It is a statement on oath by a farmer. I will leave out all reference to his name or to the farm, because his life would not be worth a minute's purchase if his name got out; get evidence. Here is a case which was referred to in the "Morning Poet" of 9th July:

That is a sum which has been paid. As a matter of fact, we offered a reward, in the case of all the deaths, of £10,000 in each case, but it has not been earned up to the present.

My misunderstanding must be put down to the cryptic and curious way in which the estimate is worded. There is one other thing that the Government ought to do, and that is under D.O.R.A., to deport from the United Kingdom the well-known alien agitators who now infest Ireland, men largely of German-American origin, who were let out during the April hunger strike. Quite a number of these agitators are going up and down Ireland and the sooner they are deported the better, because they are leading the young men astray and inciting them to these outrages. Have the Government divided Ireland into areas, and have they put in charge of each of those areas someone who shall have complete jurisdiction over all the forces of the Crown in that area? That would prevent delay on the part of the military people in communicating with the police and of the police in communicating with the naval people. One man should be in charge of each area and his word should be law. At present the military, and to a lesser extent the police, lack a sufficent number of experienced officers. In view of the great number of ex-officers of the Army who are now out of employment, many of them men of considerable military experience, I suggest that it would be well to enlist the services of some of them for one, two or three years, and to add them to the number of the officers in each battalion in Ireland, and also to attach some of them to the police. Then I would take a very drastic step. I would take powers under D.O.R.A., or by legislation if necessary, to enable the Government to say that in any county in Ireland no private individual should be in possession of a motor car or motor cycle or any petrol whatever. One reason why these outrages continue is that the assassins and lawbreakers have large supplies of petrol and many motor cars. If they do not own these things they steal them from the Government. The only way to stop that is for the Government to prevent anyone, except the Government forces or officials, from possessing motor cars in the disturbed areas. The right hon. Gentleman should take steps also to see that those in Government employment in Dublin Castle and in headquarters in the Irish Government are sympathisers with law and order and not Sinn Feiners. There is a very strong feeling abroad, and I could bring evidence forward on the point, that many of the lower officials in Dublin Castle, if not Sin Feiners, are not in sympathy with the Irish Government, and are doing all they can to support the Sinn Feiners. Unless the Government wakes up, we shall no doubt have a republic in three-fourths of Ireland within the next six months which will mean the end of this country and the end of the British Empire.

The Chief Secretary in the terrible, the very terrible, speech which he made to-day asked the House to criticise his actions in Ireland. He has not been in office in Ireland very long, and from what I can see of his proposed policy it does not differ very much from that of predecessors of his of countless years before. I would remind him, if he were here, of some of the things which he said in his election campaign in the constituency which he represents, and in which there is a very large section of Irishmen. One thing he said was, "He was not going to Ireland to Prussianise Ireland." To-day in one of the first speeches he has made as Chief Secretary, he told us he is going to introduce three Bills which are nothing more or less than introducing Prussianism into Ireland. I noticed with satisfaction the smile on the face of the War Minister sitting alongside him when he heard that military law in Ireland is going to be tightened up. No doubt that right hon. Gentleman realises how futile have been his military adventures in Russia, and now he hopes to try his hand on a smaller and weaker country, that of Ireland. I tell him that he will be no more successful in militarising Ireland than he has been in his mad adventures to militarise Russia. It is waste of time to make any suggestion to the Government, but if they really want to get into touch with the Irish people, might they not follow the plan adopted by the Prime Minister in regard to Russia, and if they do not wish to recognise the Sinn Fein Government, let them open negotiations with the co-operative societies. The Attorney-General for Ireland has, no doubt, come across the activities of the co-operative societies there, and he knows how prosperous they are. As many of them are Nationalist, if not Sinn Fein, I am sure they would be quite prepared to lend themselves to any negotiations of the sort.

The hon. and gallant Member who spoke last read out many lengthy statements from witnesses in Ireland as to the terrorism which he alleges is being carried out by Sinn Feiners. I dispute that all of those actions are the work of Sinn Fein. I think many of them are the work not of Sinn Fein, but of quite different organisations, and of other people in Ireland, and, possibly, the work of individuals with long-standing grievance to settle with the local constabulary. I want to show to the Committee that there has not been lacking some provocation on the part of the occupational forces in—Ireland. Here I will give a few incidents from friends serving in Ireland. May I say that I do not wish in any way to deprecate the work of the Army in Ireland, or to deprecate their loyalty, their courage, or devotion to duty. It is not their fault, they are part of a system, and they are being paid by a system which is carrying on illegal acts. Let me give a few incidents of what has been happening there. My friend writes:

These are, indeed, sad stories, and when I hear the insolent ridicule of the hon. Members opposite, I am more convinced than ever that I know something of the mentality——

The hon. Member is not innocent of interrupting on occasions himself, and I hope he will observe the courtesy to other Members which he expects, and, indeed, claims for himself from the Chair, from other Members.

Is the hon., and I should perhaps say, gallant Member entitled to apply the term "insolent" to an hon. Member?

If the hon. Member had listened, that is what I was rebuking the hon. Member who is speaking for.

I think we are entitled to an apology from the hon. Member, and that we should ask him to withdraw the expression.

If I used any word which was unparliamentary, I am sorry, but it is a word which was frequently used against myself, and that is why I used it. These interruptions enlighten me as to the line of reasoning of the hon. Members opposite. I have just read a few instances of occurrences in Ireland, but that is not all that happens there. Not only are these houses broken into at all hours of the day and night, whether the inhabitants are men or women, whether they are ill, or in confinement, or whatever condition they are in, the invaders do not usually leave these premises empty-handed. The accounts I have received from responsible citizens of Ireland tell me countless incidents where they have not left without some trophies in memory of their raid—trinkets, money, valuables, clothes, and all sorts of articles. I know the Attorney-General for Ireland will confirm that, because he has now before him several claims, and, indeed, he has already paid several claims for damages which have occurred during these raids.

I will conclude my remarks on that aspect of affairs with a few figures concerning the outrages which have taken place in Ireland. The official figures given by Dublin Castle of the assualts which took place between January, 1919, and March, 1920, are 32 assaults by Sinn Feiners, and the official assaults given by Sinn Fein due to British authorities number 528; deportations, 151; proclamations, suppressions of meetings, and so on, 402. Here is a real comparison. The official figures given by the Castle of the raids undertaken by Sinn Fein number 426. The raids undertaken by the British authorities in those same months number 22,279. The silent suffering endured by the Irish people almost passes computation. There was a time, there has been a long period, in which it was possible to settle the Irish question by a moderate course. That time has now passed, and if any symbol was required to prove that that is passed, it is visible in the disappearance of the newspaper, "The Irish Statesman," and the body of opinion which that paper represented. There are people who are responsible for this state of affairs.

The speech of the right hon. and learned Member for the Duncairn Division (Sir E. Carson) is, I think, greatly to be deplored, but I hope it will be given publicity in Ireland, because it shows that he is not prepared to be generous to Ireland, that the old fire of hate which he has used to stir up the Irish question ever since he took over his position in Ireland has not died by a single spark. What did he say to-day? He said he would do it over again. We know what that means. He talks a lot about the loyal section of Ireland, but what right has that man to talk in this House about loyalty? What happened in 1914? When the British Empire was subjected to the greatest strain she had ever been subjected to, that man was buying arms and munitions from our greatest enemy, Germany.

I must remind the hon. Member that he is not in Order in using that expression.

The action of the right hon. and learned Gentleman was largely the predominating cause of bringing about the world War. There is one man on whose shoulders the responsibility for the death of 10,000,000 lives hangs, and the maiming of countless millions of others, and that man is the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the Duncairn Division. I wish it was more clearly realised by the people he represents in Belfast, but I am glad the working population in Belfast are rapidly losing their confidence in him since they have seen published the way he has voted every time in this House, and how on every occasion he has thrown his vote on the side of autocracy against democracy, and I hope they will remember again his action only last week in this House, when he led the Opposition against the Government on the Debate on Amritsar. Here is a man who is looking for the salvation of Ireland, and condones the shooting down of hundreds of Indians and the maiming and wounding of thousands of others. Let the people of Ireland take that well to heart. Let them ponder over that, and they will get some understanding of the methods and the means of government which he proposes to introduce into that country. I do not think the Members of the Government are really less to blame than he is. The Leader of the House is part and parcel of the same organisation. The present Leader of the House was just as much responsible for the calamitous events of 1914 as the right hon. and learned Gentleman. The Prime Minister himself holds that opinion of the Leader of the House, for this is what he said on the 26th of March, 1914: hope for Ireland. The time is past for temporising between two opportunities of settlement in Ireland. I must confess that I cannot understand the attitude adopted by those Members of the Labour party who have visited Ireland. Surely it is not necessary for them to qualify self-determination as they have done. Surely the independence of Ireland is the least they can give to the people of Ireland. That is only the first step towards the emancipation of the working classes of Ireland. I am not one of those who have any objection to a Sinn Fein republic.

People say that you cannot have Ireland independent alongside England, but there is no argument in that at all. You might just as well say that you cannot have Belgium independent alongside. France, or that you cannot have Holland independent alongside Germany. If there is another world conflict it will be better to have a free and friendly Ireland alongside us than a hostile Ireland at our backdoor ready to stab us in the back in the hour of need. The Irish people have been fighting without talking for what Socialists in this country have been talking without fighting. I believe the solution of Ireland on a Socialistic basis is the only solution which will really provide a true and lasting solution for the masses of the people in that country. I do not believe myself that the people of Ireland will get freedom from any Government in this country, whether it is Liberal or Labour, so long as the system here is capitalistic. The interests of Ireland are too great. You have your great financial interests in Belfast, in Messrs. Harland and Wolff's business, the great linen mills, and so on, and as long as England is capitalistic she is bound to have the power and the might to enforce her will upon Ireland.

9.0 P.M.

There is hope that the people in this country will realise that. I regret to say there is at present in this country a greater sympathy among the masses of this country for the Russians than there is for our fellow creatures in Ireland. How strong would the movement be if we had in every town and village in this country hundreds and hundreds of Russians. We have that situation as regards Ireland. We have hundreds and hundreds of Irishmen in every large town and in every village, and when they really appreciate the struggle in Ire- land is not really one between religion, but the beginning of a struggle between class and class, I am sure they will rise up and give every support they can for the freedom and emancipation of the workers of Ireland. I hope this will be realised by the right hon. Gentlemen on the Front Bench. I have been at some difficulty to understand how you can arrive at a solution by temporising between two alternatives. If I have read the speeches of the right hon. Gentlemen the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas), aright, he is not in favour of Sinn Fein or the coercion of Ulster. I do not see how by temporising you are really out for the emancipation of the workman, and I presume hon. Members who belong to the Labour Party are out for that. I defy anybody to say how by a policy of temporising you are not weakening the only possible line of attack. But I do not think there is much reason in continuing a discussion of the Irish question in this House. The Irish people are settling the question in their own way. The Irish people are arriving at their own solution. They have tried constitutional means, the ballot box, and the ballot box has been flaunted in their face. What other means can they seek by which to achieve the solution they desire but by direct action? That is the solution they have got to attempt now if they are going to arrive at any solution. The right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson) has set an example to them. He, the representative of one-sixth of Ireland, has suggested to them the right to use one weapon, and who, then, is to say that the remaining five-sixths are not entitled to take similar action? I say to this five-sixths: "Go on and win, adopt the weapons which the other side are using against you." Not only is the ballot box being flaunted in their national elections, but also in their municipal elections. In the municipal elections last January the corporations and councils, in almost overwhelming majority, returned Republicans. The Republican majority of four on the Dublin Corporation disappeared in ten days to gaols and prisons on no pretext whatsoever except they held a particular point of view. Now, to-day even, fifteen aldermen and members of the Dublin Corporation are still in gaol awaiting trial for offences that never have been and never can be specified, because the authorities have no evidence and no case against them.

It is not much good addressing this House of Commons. It takes too long to operate. People who eighteen months ago objected to the views some of us put forward have now come round to them, and I have no doubt that if we stick it long enough that in another fifteen months or so hon. Members opposite will also come round to our point of view, and will see that what we suggest is the only possible solution and way out of the difficulty. When they see themselves confronted with the alternative of changing their principles in this matter or losing their seats, no doubt they will decide on the former alternative.

I have said that I believe the solution, in respect of Ireland, will come from the recognition among the workers in Ireland that their old religious prejudices, and old bigotries, have been exploited to their own detriment by self-interested parties. When they discover that, they will awake with fury and consciousness. I hope it will then be brought home to the Labour Members of this country whose interests are identical, if I may presume to say so, with the workers in Ireland. I hope they will then use what force they can to bring about a solution. I believe when that happens the workers in Ulster will rise in fury and indignation. They will learn that they have been made the unconscious tools of the self-interested view of financial and other interests in Ireland, who have used them as tools and weapons, not only against their own class, but against their own country.

I think everybody in this Committee desires to associate themselves with the expression of a desire that has been voiced by some this evening to give support to the Chief Secretary in a time of the utmost difficulty. I think we must deplore speeches such as we have just listened to from the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite; in one breath he gets up and abuses the action of the right hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir E. Carson), and at the same time uses arguments that are infinitely more dangerous in a situation so highly inflammable that it requires the exercise of caution by every Member of this House who realises the position in which we stand. If I thought the hon. and gallant Gentleman exercised any great influence in respect to Ireland, I would consider his speech much more serious than I think it is. At the same time, some of us on this side of the House, who desire to express an opinion in regard to the present government of Ireland, and who are not always in accord with the Government, find it a little bit difficult to be associated with those who deliver speeches like that to which we have just listened.

The situation in Ireland at present is possibly, in some way, more serious and desperate than that situation has been in all the long history of Ireland. I feel, therefore, that it is unfortunate that in the speech of the Chief Secretary there was no glimmer of hope expressed by him that it was the policy of the Government to try and trust to the good sense of the majority of Irish opinion in Ireland. To take one example, and one only: I know from certain personal information that in certain districts where the ordinary law of the land is entirely unable to function, the Sinn Fein Courts have been able to keep going an amount of ready made justice which ensured protection of life and property. I cannot help thinking that, as the chief duty of a Government is to ensure the safety of life and property, and if it is possible for the people in Ireland themselves to establish certain Courts which protect life and property, that it is very unfortunate that it is not within the power of scope of Dublin Castle to utilise these agents for good. If you destroy something which is, after all, protecting life and property, and you have nothing to set up in its place, you seem to be on a slippery slope that leads straight to anarchy. Government of Ireland rule, by Dublin Castle, has always been a rule which has not had the whole-hearted support of the bulk of the people. That may be due to the fact that government by officials is never very popular. Certain it is that, under present circumstances, there is an opportunity to be got out of all this turmoil, strife, misery, and horror to which Ireland is to be subjected. There are, undoubtedly, a number of Irishmen who, whilst disliking British rule, dislike far more the proposed rule of extremists. Personally, I do not for one instant believe, and will not believe, that the views of the extremists in any way represent the views of that large bulk of opinion in Ireland which cannot express itself easily or openly. I have some knowledge of Ireland, having been there in various capacities. I do think one knows this, that it takes an Irishman, as a rule, to understand Irishmen. To quote only one curious incident that occurred not long ago: There was an unfortunate raid by so-called Sinn Feiners upon the house of a gentleman who owned certain valuable property, and this property was stolen. There was no redress to the owner of this property until he was persuaded to apply, to the Irish Court—I refuse to call it a Republican Court. Some of its members were not Republicans at all, but were Irishmen who wished to run something that, at any rate, provided protection to life and property. An appeal was made to this Court, and, as a result, the property was returned in toto , and those who stole the property were condemned to work for two years en that estate without pay, and were only to be given their food.

That is rough-and-ready justice, but if it can be carried out, it is better than having nothing carried out at all, and the danger we are in is that Dublin Castle is running after a label—a ticket—and they think because these Courts are established by the people themselves and bear the taint of Republicanism, they should not be assisted. That seems small, petty and narrow. It seems to me unnecessary to argue about how you do a thing, so long as you get the result, and see that life and property are protected. The Chief Secretary has got a task of such immense difficulty that I do not think any of us wish to complicate it, but, at the same time, I think it is our business as Members to point out that we do not agree altogether that the methods of Dublin Castle have been blessed by commonsense. For instance, the idea that you can re-conquer Ireland, which one hears expressed in certain quarters, is not only fallacious, but it is wicked. How is it possible to re-conquer Ireland? Surely it is far better to do what the Chief Secretary himself to-day said he wished to do, which was to bring back into Ireland that peaceful condition which would make Ireland the prosperous country she ought to be, being endowed by Providence with all sorts of natural advantages.

But the main difficulty with which the Irish Government is confronted at the present time is that you have in power in Dublin Castle certain persons who seem to be so associated with the old days that they cannot rid themselves of the old ideas. As a result, you have ridiculous expeditions carried out by the troops and police to haul down the Republican flag. What is the result? You have down the Republican flag, and it simply incites the boys of the neighbourhood to hoist more Republican flags for the amusement of seeing tanks, armoured cars, and troops arrive, and the troops storm us the trees and pull down the flag. The thing is ridiculous. On the other hand, if you deliberately go to the outlying districts of Ireland and talk to those who have a stake in the country—not the politicians, not the people who write to the Press, not the people who talk in America, but those people who really have to live in the country, and desire to live at peace with their neighbours, and are, indeed, at peace with their neighbours—I do not believe that those people are inclined to support the views of the extremists, and I doubt very much indeed whether there is anything of a majority who favour Republicanism. The hon. Member opposite just now admitted he was an out-and-out Republican. He advised direct action. He advised every means, legitimate and illegitimate, to make Ireland independent of this country. In advancing those views he, being an Irishman, is doing, I honestly think, a great disservice to his own country. Ireland as a Republic could not exist for any length of time in a prosperous condition. Is it nothing that you belong to the Empire? Is it nothing that you have built up this Empire to what it is? I am convinced by the conduct of the gallant Irishmen who have distinguished themselves in every part of the Empire, and every struggle in which the Empire has been engaged, that those men certainly do not support the views expressed by the hon. Gentleman opposite.

Furthermore, I believe we shall have to offer Ireland in the very near future some form of Dominion Home Rule which will reserve to this country the control of the military and naval forces, and I do not believe that the Irish themselves would wish to have the control of the volunteers. If you can keep in the hands of this country the naval, military, and air power, including the volunteers and grant Ulster at the same time what she has often expressed that she wants, which is to remain part and parcel of Great Britain, and if you have county option added to it, I honestly believe we shall arrive nearer some solution; but I am equally convinced that making speeches in Ireland which cause difficulty to the Government in Ireland is going to intensify the evils with which we are confronted, and I believe that these few hours to-day and to-morrow, and possibly this week, are more fraught with danger to the future than any previous time in Irish history. Feelings have been excited in the North. This terrible programme of murder will be extended, I am sure, because the extremists at the moment are encouraged because we are not encouraging moderate opinion in Ireland, which is the only element to conquer the extremists. I do not believe you will ever get over the extremist views by the exercise of force. I believe you will conquer extremist views only by propaganda and sane methods of government, and I think that, as the Chief Secretary has gone to Ireland, it is hardly fair to him to allow the present Lord Lieutenant and his immediate advisers to remain in power. I believe the Chief Secretary will succeed, and I am sure he will succeed if he is given a chance and is supported by this House; but I believe he will have a far greater chance if the Lord Lieutenant, who was Viceroy during those periods, which we all deplore, when another Chief Secretary was in office, were to go, and you could appoint Lord Justices, who are, after all, part of the Irish Constitution. Three Irish Privy Councillors can at any time be put in a position of power to exercise the functions of the Lord Lieutenant, and if you could have three such persons in this interim period, and if the Irish people could be shown that this country honestly now, for the first time, when party strife is put aside, and when, as supporters of the Government, you have an enormous body of opinion which would do anything in the world to get some solution of this Irish difficulty, I honestly think it would be of great assistance.

Some of us who got into the House for the first time at the last election thought there was a chance when party politics were in abeyance to settle the Irish question. Some of us thought it was one of the greatest missions this country had, and what has been the history of this business since the Government has been in power? We see very little advance. We see Ireland has receded into a worse morass. The only cure for that is to assure the Chief Secretary and the Government that if they will trust the Irish people, and if they can, some way or other, make the Irish people believe they are to be trusted, which is perhaps the more difficult, they will have behind them in this House a body of support which will back them. I think most of us now realise that the present Irish Bill is rather Dead Sea fruit, and what one is rather afraid of now is that, as usual, we shall be just too late. We have been rather too much like the plum pudding dog running after the carriage instead of the postillion leading. You must be ahead of public opinion, and not behind. Unless we watch it, the great mass of opinion which would now welcome a form of Dominion Home Rule will not be content, but will join the ranks of those extremists who want a Republic. It is here that we must part company. So long as I have a vote in this House, nothing will induce me to vote in favour of the secession of Ireland from the Empire. I would gladly give my vote to a form of Dominion Home Rule that would content Irishmen, that would not endanger the position of Ulster, and that would bring contentment into the homes of Irishmen and into the hearts of Britishers. I do not think that at the present moment anybody in England or in Scotland can look with satisfaction on the Irish position. I am well aware that the extreme element of Sinn Fein is to a large extent political. I know some of these outrages are performed by men who are certainly not Irishmen and are generally not Britishers. There may be a solution found by means of labour negotiation, but labour negotiation is not assisted by speeches from the Benches opposite, and appeals to leaders of Labour which are taunts at the moderation of the statesmanship of Labour leaders. Before I sit down I would just like to say that it seems to me if we are ever to arrive at a solution of this question we must make up our minds here and now that in the autumn we shall be prepared to be bold, brave and courageous, and to trust the moderate opinion in Ireland.

The Irish question has been one which has been the ruin of many Governments. Several Governments have fallen over it and this Government has stumbled over it, and unless we are all very careful regarding what we say, I fear it is quite possible that this Government may find itself in the position of the other Governments. From the point of view of a soldier I would say this one word—that if there is an inclination to demand martial law in Ireland, you are going to produce a situation which will be more than deplorable and one from which you cannot emerge with credit. For one thing, you would put officers in command of troops into a most hideous position I think people do not sufficiently often realise that the very fact you are reduced to resort to martial law is an admission of the fact that civil law cannot be carried out, and that you are dropping back to what must be methods of harshness, to use no sterner word. Will this country stand the methods that may have to be employed under martial law? I doubt it I do not believe that those who have had charge of Dublin Castle have been sufficiently inclined to trust to the moderate Irish opinion. I do not mean the extremists. They are Ireland's worst enemies. But there are many in Ireland who have come forward, amidst the taunts of their fellows, and who have endeavoured to reduce the scope of the extremist idea. Some have died for that. It is that sort of men we must support. Personally I am convinced that you cannot reconquer Ireland with force, but you will win Ireland with kindness even at this eleventh hour, and I would appeal to the House to support the Chief Secretary. I assure him that if the Government recognise that the Home Rule Bill as introduced does not go far enough, with every adequate protection to Ulster, there are some of us on this side who would go forward with them in supporting a measure of Dominion Home Rule for Ireland.

I have listened with great interest and with great attention to the speech which has just fallen from the lips of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, and may I say this, that his speech portrayed an honest attempt at constructive statesmanship. It was indeed a welcome oasis after the weary deserts of stale debate and argument which we have grown sick of and to which we have been treated during the whole of this Debate. His speech especially was in strong contrast to the speech by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn. All that he could tell us was this—that the administration of the country had broken down. He emphasised that again and again, and yet he called on the Chief Secretary to choose this moment—the moment when the administration of the country has broken down—to suppress our county councils in Ireland. What is he going to give us to carry on with? How are our roads and our poor and our sick to be looked after? He seemed to assume that in three-fourths of Ireland there is no population except violent Sinn Feiners who parade the roads at night with loaded guns in their hands. Throughout his speech he had not one single word, or one single thought apparently, of care for the Irish Commonwealth, for the whole community of Irishmen in which we are all bound together. He knows as well as we on these Benches know, that races and religions and parties are mixed up inextricably over the whole face of Ireland, and that you cannot hit heads in Cork without hitting the heads both of Catholics and Protestants. Suppress the county councils! There was no suggestion as to what was to take their place. Leave the county councils as they are, say I, and the rates will be honestly paid all over the county and the local services will be faithfully discharged just as they are at the present time. Does the right hon. Gentleman for Duncairn want to deprive three-fourths of Ireland of roads, of hospitals, of medical benefits, of care for the sick, and of all the other services which are performed by local authorities? He must know full well that that must be the result of any attempt by the Chief Secretary and by His Majesty's Ministers, Irish or English, to suppress the county councils. At the end of his speech what was the alternative which he gave to the Committee and to the British Empire, as well as to Ireland, the country in which he was born? It was, "You must surrender or fight: there is no other alternative." Is that so? Can it be there is no further alternative? Throughout this Irish controversy we have spoken in terms of battle, as if we were all at war with one another, almost unconsciously we do it, and so the right hon. Gentleman tells us there is no alternative for the English Government in Ireland except to surrender or fight. Is not surrendering the exception? Is not fighting the exception? Should not both surrendering and fighting be the greatest exceptions of all? Are they not the things one only wants once in a lifetime? Ought not peace to be the normal rule governing the lives and relations of men from the cradle to the grave? I say it was up to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, a man to whom we all look up to although we differ from him—we hate him sometimes for his ability, yet we say that it was up to him at a time like this not to have overlooked that alternative which I believe is uppermost in the minds of the Labour party, ably and temperately led by my right hon. Friend (Mr. Thomas), that alternative which is uppermost in the minds of three-fourths of the Members of this House; it was up to him to voice that further alternative.

The Chief Secretary had not a word to say of peace. He is the responsible Minister of the Government. He is responsible for the peace of Ireland. He is responsible for the permanent settlement of Ireland. He was sent over there to bring that about; but he comes down here to an Irish Debate, after having seen what is going on in Ireland, the suffering, the violence and the murders, after having seen that Ireland is drifting from worse to worse, and he has not a word to say of peace, not a word of hope to bring forward at the end of the Parliamentary year. He talks of coercion, and speaks of extraordinary proposals which he intends to make. He says the crimes in Ireland are the acts of a few. He has said that again and again. What does he propose to do? He proposes to put on the country such a blister as never yet was placed upon her, even when crime was rampant over the land. What is his first proposal? A Criminal Injuries Bill, which is to be a blister on the local authority in respect of every outrage, every death by violence, that occurs as a result of this struggle between Sinn Fein and the Government. It is to be a blister on the innocent ratepayers, and for fear there is any chance of their escape, he is going to introduce a Bill and to make it impossible for them to do so. The crimes are the acts of a few, but he is going to make certain that the many shall be blistered.

What is his next proposal? He is going to confiscate the grants which have been made by the Central Government to local authorities for various local purposes. These sums I regard as sacrosanct. They were devoted by this House to special purposes. As long ago as 1898, and even prior to that, certain sums were set apart from the revenues of this kingdom to assist the local authorities in Ireland in their medical work, in the maintenance of their roads and of their lunatic asylums, and for various other purposes to which they have to devote their attention. I say that these moneys are in the nature of trusts, and that this House, in passing a Statute which would sanction the deviation of these sums to other purposes would be wrong. If a private individual makes a will, leaving sums of money for charitable purposes, the courts of law would make very shore work of anyone trying to interfere with the beneficient intentions of the testator. The same thing should happen with regard to public moneys granted from central funds, and yet the Chief Secretary is going to raid them all. He does not care how poor people may suffer if money is not forthcoming for the medical services or for the roads. He does not care what becomes of the lunatic asylums. He is reduced to a poor, petty action to obtain money for certain purposes, because he is trying the impossible task of governing Ireland without the consent of the governed. It is a poor petty makeshift, one of the one hundred and one makeshifts to which the Government have been driven within the last six months, and there are a hundred and one more makeshifts still more humiliating to which they will be driven in the next six months if they do not settle the Irish question oh a radical and thorough basis What is his next creation? What is the next step which he is going to take in order to stem Niagara? He is going to set up a special court, consisting of a certain number of judges, who will operate in criminal cases without juries? [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] Would you like it in England? You prate a lot about the liberty of the subject and the sacredness of trial by jury.

You have been asserting that for over 30 years. We hope that within 12 months that statement will be proved to be false. I wonder whether the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General were consulted as to whether they would like to form the first members of this Court. I rather think that if they were approached the answer would be, "Declined with thanks." The Court will probably be all right. There will be everything belonging to the Court except the litigants and the prisoners. I think it is most unfair to blame the jurors, as has been done more than once, for not attending the Courts of Assizes. They would have attended if the Government had been in a position to protect them and guarantee that they would not be molested when they tried to do their duty. The Government could not do that, and so the Government is to blame, and not the jurors, for the recent breakdown of the jury system. In the same way, I think it is one of the most outrageous and unfair things to blame the engine drivers and the railwaymen for not operating trains. It does not lie in any man's mouth to blame them when the Government is unable to guarantee that they will be safe in life and limb if they do operate those trains and endeavour to carry out the orders which are given to them.

Let us face this Irish problem fairly and squarely. There are a few elementary facts that carry us all the way. First, it is our country. It is a highly civilised country, a rich country, a populous country. To-day it is teeming with a highly educated population. They are determined on securing their liberty. It is the first time you have ever been face to face with a population like that. You could keep them down all right when they were a poor, starving peasantry. They were a simple enough proposition then. They are quite a different proposition to-day, and, even for right hon. Gentlemen like some of those opposite, they will be rather too much for armchair politicians. Bigger men, perhaps, than they have tried to solve the Irish question and have failed. It is our country, and the people who bear its name are determined that they will have that country and will govern it according to their own way of thinking. You led us to believe, up to a time, that you were going to give us our desire. Then you broke your promise. One section of Irishmen were permitted to arm, to engage in treason and in gun-running, and the rest of the population began slowly to despair of redress by constitutional means. Some of us were very slow to yield to that despair, but gradually the tide of despair is rising higher and higher, and it is only a question of time until it engulfs all of us. That may not seem to be much comfort for us, but certainly it is no comfort to the Government.

What are the results of those two tendencies? To-day, the Act of Union has broken down, and, as we were told by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Duncairn, English Government has ceased in three-fourths of Ireland. He told us that the Assizes were a farce, that the judges had to steal out of Dublin in the clouds of the morning, almost in disguise, and he told us, quite truly, how they were surrounded by regiments of armed men as they went through almost three-fourths of the country. I think it is a mistake, I think it is hardly fair to the Irish question, and still less fair to the House, in discussions like this, to emphasise individual incidents, no matter how painful they may be. The right hon. Gentleman told us, and I think he was visibly moved when he was telling it, of his affection for the late Allan Bell, and he described to us his murder. The Chief Secretary, also, gave us a few instances which had impressed themselves very keenly on his mind. I think such instances are misleading, because the speaker always jumps from the particular, which he visualises and makes vivid for his hearers, to the general. I prefer to look on all those incidents as the sad, dreary procession that must take place, and that will continue, while the Government of Ireland is carried on in its present unnatural manner. Wherever you have a government which rests on force alone, which is not carried on with the consent of the governed—wherever that people is a high-spirited people, determined on obtaining their freedom, and with arms in their pockets—whenever all those elements concur, you will have a dreary, monotonous march of tragedy after tradegy.

What have you been doing up to the present—the greatest statesmen of the lot of you? The patient is sick of a fever, and you are treating symptoms. You say that, if only the outrages would stop for six weeks, they could get anything they want—that the patient is suffering from all the symptoms of a fever, and if only the symptoms would stop you could cure the fever. Never once has the problem been tackled in a straightforward, scientific manner. Never once has the fever been treated; it has always been the symptoms—which do not matter. Proud the Chief Secretary would be to come to that box and say the symptoms have disappeared, because he would at once add in the same breath that the fever has gone too. But the fever will be as deep-seated as ever until its root cause is removed. Three-fourths of Ireland has left you. When will you make peace? That is the question before this House. Ireland can wait. To-day Ireland can well wait. She can better afford to wait than you can. It is a question for this House; how long are you going to wait to negotiate this peace? It is up to you.

I suppose anyone who has visited Ireland of late would agree that we have never discussed the Irish problem under more difficult and delicate circumstances than we are doing at this moment. I am well aware that just as in Labour conferences, no greater mistake could be made than to hold out a false hope which may deceive the Irish people at this stage when events at this very moment are taking place in Ireland, the consequences of which no one can foretell, or to do other than try at least to say nothing which will aggravate the situation, but rather tend to find some solution. We cannot approach the Irish question to-day without looking at the tragedy of those Benches. Hon. Members in all parts of the House, regardless of their political opinions, regardless of their bitter hostility to Home Rule, cannot help but feel that it is a real tragedy to find those Benches depleted, as they are depleted to-day, and Ireland deprived of some of her greatest champions. After all, if we accept that proposition we cannot dissociate ourselves from our share in the responsibility for that position. I intend to approach it from that point of view. I listened with amazement to the speech of the hon. Member (Mr. Malone), and I am availing myself of this opportunity to deal with a situation which I think is a reflection upon a Member of this House in taking a mean and unfair advantage of his position as a Member of this House. He said in his speech to-day that in his view the only solution of this problem was the solution proposed by the Railwaymen's Union. Incidentally for his information I may tell him that I am responsible for the drafting of that resolution. I have been in Ireland, North and South, and made no difference whether I was speaking in the North or the South, with all the risks attendant upon it, in denouncing murder and outrage whoever performed it. I did not hesitate, in the South of Ireland and in the presence of all sections of opinion, to express what I believe to be the feeling of every man, that is to denounce in unmeasured language murder, whether it be of policemen or by policemen, and to point out that in my judgment there can be no solution in that direction. I only say it because of its reference to the action of the hon. Member.

I listened to everything the hon. Member said and he will listen to me, I am sure. I am merely stating what my attitude in Ireland was with a view to showing the action of the hon. Member. Whilst I was engaged in dealing with the situation in Ireland under all these circumstances, this letter was written to the Irish Press:

Colonel MALONE, M.P., and Mr. THOMAS, M.P.,

"Passing through Belfast and seeing the accounts of the Railwaymen's Congress, and especially Mr. Thomas's speech, I feel that some comments are necessary lest Irish labour should think that Mr. Thomas, M.P., represents democratic thought in England. He is the conscious or unconscious tool of the capitalists and the Ulster men."

And this, be it observed, when I was running a risk in trying to find a bridge, when I had 1,500 men dismissed and I was battling with the situation. Then he goes on to say:

"But this can only be stopped by direct action. I have not much faith in a so-called Labour Government in England with Henderson, Thomas, Clynes and Company."

This is the place to reply to a fellow-Member of this House.

It is necessary, in the interests of my members. My reply is a very short one. I may not represent democratic thought in this country, but I certainly represent as much democratic thought as the hon. Member. He was returned as a Coalition Member against a Labour candidate. He is perfectly entitled to change his views, as we all are, but the day that I cease to be able to associate myself with my party, and with the ticket that I was returned on, I shall at least do the honest thing in consulting the electors. That is the only democratic way of testing one's opinions in this matter. I regret have to mention it, but I do so because there are railwaymen in Ireland, as well as in this country, who are entitled to an answer to a statement of that kind. The Debate to-day conclusively proves two things: First, the Government says to the House, "We are determined to maintain law and order in Ireland." I submit that that is the one thing they are not doing. There is neither law nor order in Ireland. It is a travesty of the whole situation. I will deal with both sides. Last Saturday week, prior to the demonstration of the Twelfth, our Congress had finished. A number of the delegates ordered a char-a-banc, and, with our wives, went some ten miles out in the country. On the way back, a mile and a half outside the city, soldiers with bayonets fixed stopped the char-a-banc and ordered us all out, and one stood with a fixed bayonet whilst the others searched me and the whole of my colleagues, and then searched the char-a-banc. Everybody who went out on that road that day and the days prior were treated precisely the same. That was last Saturday week in Belfast. I made some inquiries, and I was assured that the object was so that the law in Ireland would be absolutely impartial, and that everybody going into Belfast would be searched, to see that they had no arms or ammunition. That is the Government's explanation. Is that a very fair and impartial carrying out of law and order? Let us see how it works, if that is the object. I know something of transport, and I said to my secretary, "Get the schedule for each station." I went myself to see what happened when the passengers came into Belfast. Thousands of passengers came in, and not one of them was searched. No notice was taken.

I want the Committee to appreciate the situation. It makes it a mockery, and it convinces the Irish people that it is all humbug and they do not trust us. That is in the North, in Belfast, in Ulster. Let us go to the South. Three weeks ago at a place called Tuam six policemen boarded a train. They had arms and the railwaymen decided not to take them. The driver and fireman and guard were dismissed and the policemen stopped on the platform. They stuck out and the train is still there. The next day they presented themselves for the same train. The driver and fireman refused, and they were dismissed. That has been going on for three weeks with three shifts, policemen alternatively relieving each other to merely board the train. Their ticket is for 31 miles to their destination. Their ticket compels them to go 31 miles, and the distance by road is six miles, and that they have been doing for three weeks. I am showing you that the law is treated with contempt, that there is no impartiality in it and no system. Take Kingsbridge. About ten days ago there were three trucks of munitions brought into Kingsbridge. The men refused to handle them. The Government put ten soldiers, all armed, to protect them. They had been standing in sidings there for days with ten soldiers protecting them. At mid-day on Monday a motor drives up, the ten soldiers are deprived of their arms, they poured paraffin or something on the three trucks, the trucks are burned right down to the ground, the soldiers disarmed and that ends the three trucks. On Tuesday they load three more trucks to put in their place. What does that show? It merely shows that there is no object or method in the whole business. It does two things. Every time that these people succeed, as they do succeed, in bringing all your forces of law and order into contempt, it merely persuades them that you are not in earnest. It does something more than that. It shows clearly to them that you have no object other than to provoke them. I hope no one will suggest that they do any good by putting one truck after another unless they insist on it going to its destination. If they do not insist, but merely put the trucks out, it proves conclusively that it is done to provoke and aggravate the situation. At any rate, that is the impression which it gives.

That is the effect of it? Responsible Unionists, men occupying most important positions, supporters of Ulster, are so thoroughly disgusted that they have declared to me that it is driving everybody over to Sinn Fein. I do not want to mention any names, but if challenged I could mention names of responsible people known to my hon. Friends opposite. What is the use of pretending that you have law and order if that is the state of affairs? One could go on for hours reciting similar incidents, but I merely want to demonstrate the point that, so far as the position of the Government in Ireland is concerned, it is non-existent. I am equally certain that it will remain non-existent, because this afternoon we heard from the Chief Secretary a suggestion of two remedies which will be laughed out of court in Ireland, and he knows that. Take the suggestion about the Court to supersede another. Everybody knows that the real difficulty in Ireland to-day is the impossibility of getting evidence. Just imagine passing an Act forcing another Act through this House? How does that contribute towards getting evidence? What protection does it give to those who give evidence? Therefore the very suggestion in itself is farcical, and the people know that it is entirely and absolutely absurd.

Desperate as is the position—and it is desperate as we must all realise—there is one thing to remember. When hon. Members shout about militarism, let them go to Dublin; to the South or the North; and they will find there, as the first thing that will impress them, and the first thing that makes one sad, the number of young boys who are soldiers. Hon. Members would be amazed to see it. Do not think that there is bitter hostility towards the soldiers by the people. Do not think that for a moment, for the soldiers go about with absolute freedom so far as the people are concerned. Desperate as the position is, I believe that even now there is an opportunity of finding a remedy. I believe you will get an upheaval unless you find a solution. The railway condition in itself must paralyse the whole country. I believe it will do more and bring things to a crisis. Suppose that we had an upheaval. The military, of course, will win, and everybody knows that perfectly well. I have told these people more often than I can tell this House that the military will win, and, of course, there would be bloodshed and hundreds killed. But does this House assume for a moment that if that happens the Irish problem is solved? Does not everyone know perfectly well that if Dublin were running with blood to-morrow there still remains an Irish problem more bitter than ever before? If that be the position, and in any judgment it is the position, has not the time arrived to face the hard cold facts, and to say, "No, we will avoid it if we can"?

I agree entirely that there is no solution while mistrust and suspicion exist. The first essential is to get a better atmosphere. You will not get a better atmosphere by mere words. The Irish people do not believe the British Government, and they are entitled to adopt that attitude, for no one will deny that the Nationalist party was destroyed because it entered into negotiations and the promises made to them were never redeemed. That is the secret of the whole situation. That being so, I say that mere words will not satisfy the Irish people. I am against the Sinn Feiners and I am against a republic, and for two reasons. I am against a republic because it would inevitably lead to the disintegration of the Empire. In the second place, I am satisfied that you cannot carry the British people with you on it. I am equally satisfied that the Ulster people's solution is not the real solution. They will not bring peace to Ireland any more than the Sinn Feiners. Therefore, I rule out both. I say that the Government could obtain peace by the setting up of Dominion Home Rule in Ireland. I shall be asked what evidence there is that Sinn Fein would accept such a settlement.

In the right hon. Gentleman's mind, does Dominion Home Rule mean their having an Army and Navy of their own?

I will deal with details in a moment. The proposals I am submitting here to-night are the proposals that I submitted this afternoon to the Prime Minister on behalf of the British trade unions, so that there is no secret about them. I would give Dominion Home Rule. If the Ulster people feel that they want protection I would tell them that the Prime Minister made this declaration: The right hon. Gentleman said that he was prepared to negotiate with anybody, any section in Ireland or representing Ireland, conditionally upon two things being accepted. First, that there should not be a republic, and secondly, there should be protection for Ulster. That was the statement of the Prime Minister.

The Railwaymen's Executive called a conference of all the Irish branches North and South, and a delegation from the North and South waited upon the Prime Minister. I myself headed the deputation, and the reply that he then gave a fortnight ago was just as I have said. He repeated it to-day, let there be no mistake, half an hour before the Irish Secretary delivered his speech in this House. He said that so far as the Government were concerned they were prepared to meet anybody to discuss the situation conditional on two points, namely, no republic and the recognition of the protection for Ulster. Lord Monteagle introduced a Bill into the Lords containing all the provisions of Dominion Home Rule and safeguarding those positions. I do not want to discuss the merits of that Bill, but I want to show how the Irish people are entitled to say, "We do not believe a word you are saying." In a few days after the Prime Minister made that statement Lord Monteagle introduced that Bill. The Lord Chancellor mutilated the Bill, and rejected it ignominiously on behalf of the Government. If that is so, how can the Irish people believe anybody. Here was a clear statement, made publicly, that if they would accept Home Rule they would discuss anything, with the two provisos I have mentioned. A few days after- wards a Bill is introduced into the Lords, and the Lord Chancellor, speaking undoubtedly on behalf of the Government, treats it with utter contempt and turns it down.

Whatever it is, it is playing with the Irish people. I say that we have got to face the facts that all these things cause the people to mistrust us, and all these things deceive the Irish people to-day. When they read, as they will read to-morrow, the Chief Secretary's contribution, which says three more Coercion Acts and three more Bills to deal with the situation and they will not deal with it, they will say there is no other course than to go on in their methods. I deplore that. I deplore it because I am persuaded that this House sooner or later will again have to come back and face a more serious situation than they are facing to-night. So far as I can visualise the situation there is in Ireland to-day a great mass of people whose opinions are being snowed under. They cannot find any chance of giving expression to their views because the Government give them no policy that they themselves can support. In regard to the Army and Navy, my answer is "No." If we were wise, we would say to the Irish people, "Build your Army and Navy." I do not think for a moment they would do it; they would have no need, but I at least, speaking on behalf of the party, said "No. So far as the Army and Navy are concerned, we reserve that to Great Britain."

Let us see what the position in regard to the British garrison is. A very curious thing about it is that the Irish people do not object to the British garrison, merely in the sense of soldiers being garrisoned there, treated as an ordinary barracks, but that is an entirely different thing from the state of affairs that is in Ireland to-day, and it is in that sense that they object. On the other hand, in regard to Customs, equally I say there is no solution unless Customs are dealt with by Ireland. If you look at imports and exports, you will see they practically balance each other, and there would be no reason whatever to assume a tariff wall against us, and I say that Ireland ought to be at perfect liberty to deal with them. You may condemn the solution, and you may ridicule it and say it does not meet the problem. All I say is that it is at least a contribution from our part; it is at least a fair and practical proposal. My last word is that I am persuaded that the present policy cannot succeed. If any words of mine could influence anybody, I would say, "For God's sake, stop murder and outrage; they will never succeed." Equally I would say to the Government, "You have tried everything in Ireland but liberty and freedom; every measure you have introduced has utterly failed." Dark and bitter as it is at this moment, I would urge the Government to try the big, bold policy of saying to the Irish people, "We are not going to introduce two Parliaments; we are going to recognise your national claim of 'Ireland a nation.'" Give all the protection that is necessary—and it could be given—and I believe that you will win in Ireland, not the enemy that she is to-day, but a friend that will ultimately consolidate the Empire.

I have listened with great attention, indeed with the attention which the right hon. Gentleman always commands, to the moderate and effective speech that he has just made. Let me bring the Committee back for the moment to a consideration of the question that awaits their decision. It is in fact in effect a Vote of Censure on my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary, the holder of the office at present. I venture to say, without fear of contradiction, that whether during the War, or at any other time, no more thankless or difficult task has been imposed by reason of Membership of this House upon any man. Gratitude ought to be felt to my right hon. Friend for the cheerful and ready way in which he responded to the call of the Prime Minister, not to serve a party, but to serve his King, because I claim for him, under existing conditions in Ireland, that he is not the representative of a party. In no other country in the world, if the conditions were the same, if your soldiers and police officers were being shot down in the street, would he not be assured of the unanimous support of the House of Representatives to which he belongs. I put it to the Committee in the interests, not of a party, because we have gone a long way from that in Ireland, but in the interests of the British Empire, that he deserves, not merely the support of the House, but its cordial sympathy and kind consideration.

The task imposed upon my right hon. Friend is one of the very gravest difficulty. If anything were required to show how difficult it is, it is supplied by the speeches which have been delivered here to-day. We have heard from men in all parts of the Committee suggestions of a solution and suggestions of one kind or another in connection with the Irish Question, and having studied this all my life, and having spent the whole of my life in Ireland, I am just as wise as when the Debate commenced. The real question is this: Are you going to allow murder and outrage to go unchecked through the country without making an effort to deal with it? I say that in the great volume of opinion in this Committee no one has ventured to suggest that he has any sympathy with these outrages, and would be very much opposed now to any Member of this Committee who had any such sympathy. A great volume of opinion in this House and out is with my right hon. Friend in his difficult task; he should be supported in his honest endeavour to put down crime and outrage.

What is the complaint in regard to the statement made by the Chief Secretary? My hon. Friend, the Member for East Donegal (Mr. E. J. Kelly), complained bitterly that the Chief Secretary had suggested an Act of Parliament which would deprive the county council of their grants? Why, he asked, are they to be deprived of their grants? They have, he suggested, got them under the authority of an Act of this House. They have got them through the munificence of this House, and the same House that passed those grants has passed an Act of Parliament which says if a constable, sergeant, or other officer is killed in the discharge of his duty we say that his dependants shall be paid by the county in which his death occurs a sum of money to compensate the widow and children for the grievous loss they have sustained. Are you going to go back on an Act of Parliament which you yourselves passed? Men have died on the strength of that Act. They felt they could go to their deaths more easily because their wives and children had been provided for, and that after they had been striken down in death those who they loved would not appeal to their country in vain. My hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Kelly) said something about compensation, but what about the dead officers?

I never suggested that the widows and dependants of policemen who had been shot should not be compensated, but I said that is a task for the Central Government.

My hon. and learned Friend is always willing to pass the burden on to somebody else's shoulders. I admire the generosity of some of my countrymen who, instead of paying the obligations that fall on their citizens say, "no, let the British taxpayer pay it."

I do not think the British Government have ever defaulted in the matter of money in connection with Ireland. I do not, however, wish to be put off the question we are discussing. My hon. and learned Friend is most anxious that the British taxpayer should bear all this burden, but does he want us to pay a premium on Sinn Fein outrages? If the British taxpayer adopted that liability there would not be a house or a haystack left in Ireland. One of the best ways to get at the British taxpayer is through his pocket, and if they could only realise that by burning and burning a cheque was being drawn on every occasion, why we should all be living in the open air. The burden may fall on the innocent by our method, but it will fall on the guilty as well, and perhaps it will arouse the innocent not to so much innocence in one sense, but arouse them to try and give every assistance they can to the Government of the country. That is my submission on the hon. and learned Gentleman's contention as regards one portion of his speech. As regards the other proposition outlined by the Chief Secretary, he has put his views before the Committee on the administration of justice in Ireland. What has been the condition of affairs during the last month? The Irish Government have held on to constitutional tribunals as long as they could. We have been guilty almost of weakness in this respect. Who is destroying trial by jury in Ireland? Is it the British Government?

We have been trying to have trial by jury, and what has happened in Galway and Cork within the last three weeks? Jurors have been intimidated. They have been summoned for the trial of their fellow citizens, and they have been threatened that if they come near the Court they will meet with sudden death. How can you protect hundreds of men under those circumstances? The learned Judge at Wexford said it was better to die than to live in slavery. I maintain that the people who are responsible for the destruction of trial by jury, if it is destroyed, are not those who form the British Government, because they have held on to this system to the last moment, but the people who insist upon intimidating jurors in the discharge of their duties. I would like to say a word or two with reference to something which fell from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Fylde Division (Colonel Ashley). He said that I made a certain statement in the House as regards the instructions that were given to the constabularly and the soldiers. I did make that statement, and before I made it I had seen myself, within one hour, the Commander-in-Chief of the Forces in Ireland, and I had his full authority to make that statement. He informed me those were the instructions he had issued, so that it was not by any means an unguarded statement, or a statement made without due consideration, but on information of very great weight, and I think the House might fairly take the statement of the Commander of the Forces as to the instructions he gave, rather than the statement of anyone else.

I am unable to say whether they did or did not shoot at this moment, because, as the Committee will understand, my hon. and gallant Friend made the statement about an hour ago, but I am informed by the Commander-in-Chief, Sir Nevil Macready, that those were the instructions he gave. Whether an officer of a particular district and under particular circumstances acted otherwise I am unable to say, but I am quite clear and emphatic in the statement I made, and upon the authority that induced me to make it in this House, because I regarded it as a serious statement, and a statement that might involve the lives of my fellow-subjects and fellow-countrymen, and I was careful, before making that statement, to ascertain that it was based upon the highest authority that was available. That is my justification. Let me speak of another matter with which my hon. and gallant Friend dealt. Part of the burden of his song was that we were doing nothing in Ireland to get abreast of disorder, and, marvellous to relate, he read out as part of his indictment that there were three killed on a particular day and 25 wounded. When you come to analyse those figures, one of the persons killed was killed by the military in trying to suppress the disturbance, and of the 25 wounded, 20 were wounded by the military in trying to suppress the disturbance. It does seem hard that, on the one hand, you should be attacked for doing nothing, and the moment you do anything it is used to your detriment, because that is the result of what my hon. and gallant Friend has brought up. Surely, when my hon. Friend comes to think, he will regret that he brought that charge. Perhaps my hon. and gallant Friend never regrets, but, at any rate, those are his own figures and his own facts, and I submit that, whatever faults the Irish Government have, what they do in the interests of law and order should not be used against them. After the full way in which the Chief Secretary has dealt with this subject, I do not think I am justified in taking up the time of the Committee any further.

I am obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend. I have already explained on many occasions to my hon. and gallant Friend, that so far as any prisoner released after conviction is concerned, in the first instance it arose entirely from a misundestanding of the orders of His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant. He had directed that a number of persons interned under Regulation 14B of the Defence of the Realm Regulations should be released, but, owing to a misunderstanding, other men who were not interned, but had been convicted, were released. The complaint my hon. and gallant Friend made, as I understand, was that 16 had been released, but these were released under the "Cat-and-Mouse" Act. They were liable to fresh arrest, and the Government, I am assured, considered all the circumstances. They were not grave cases, so far as I have been able to ascertain, and they were released under the "Cat-and-Mouse" Act.

Because, I understand, the period of release has not yet expired, and that is an Act passed not merely for Ireland but for England and Scotland. In the event of any of these people misbehaving themselves they are liable to re-arrest, and to go through the hunger strike all over again. I think those are the matters that my hon. and gallant Friend dealt with. I may not have been able to satisfy him, but at all events I have made an honest attempt. I am sure, when he comes to consider the difficulties which beset the Irish Government that he will see that this is not a new question. One would imagine from his remarks that we had suddenly dropped, in the year 1920, into a state of things that had never existed before. It has been going on ever since he went there. When you find the whole of Europe in a state of upheaval, what do you expect in Ireland? When Europe is fighting, surely you do not expect us to be at peace? The men who are really concerned are men who are trying to do their duty. Hon. Members ask, "Have any arrests been made?" Who makes arrests? It is the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary. The reason very often that these men have not made arrests is because some of them are shot down, some killed, some wounded. Is any censure to be passed on them? Are they not trying, to the admiration of this House, to do their duty to the best of their ability at the risk of their lives? Great as the shortcomings of the Irish Government may be, there are no shortcomings on the part of the constabulary, and I do ask the House to support the Vote.

I do not desire to re-open the question with which the right hon. and learned Attorney-General had dealt, but I do desire to put to the Government one or two points which arise out of a portion of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Mr. Thomas). The right hon. Gentleman made a very remarkable statement, which I did my best to follow with great attention, and which I think I correctly state in this form: That once a fortnight ago and once to-day he had a conversation with the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister had conveyed to him this impression—I am not saying it is correct, because I do not know—that the Government would negotiate with anybody in Ireland—I hope we may except from that persons guilty of murder: one never knows—with a view to coming to an understanding on any basis consistent with two requirements, namely, that Ireland should not be an independent Republic and that Ulster should be protected. From the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby, it seems that the impression left upon his mind was that what was called the protection of Ulster did not imply its complete exclusion from whatever was the new arrangement. That is a declaration which, if it has been made at all, is of the utmost possible importance. It is not a declaration that ought to be made privately in the critical ear of the Member for Derby. It is a declaration that ought to be made to this House, and it ought to be made before this Committee votes upon the salary of the Chief Secretary for Ireland. Members ought not to be kept in the dark on capital points of Irish policy when they have to vote on Irish supply. I therefore invite my right hon. Friend to say how that matter stands, and whether the Government have changed their Irish policy, and in what, respect. The right hon. Gentlemen the Members for Derby and Platting made strong protests against the attempt to govern Ireland by force, and not by consent. I do not want to enter into the general controversy, but one may say that every Government must depend on a measure of consent and a measure of force. Part of the community must consent to be governed, and those who do not consent must be compelled. That is true of every Government that has existed. It is quite untrue to say that what is called force, police measures supported by the action of military forces are unsuccessful in repressing Irish crime. So far from it being so, it has never failed to do so. This access of murder is by no means unprecedented, although it is one of the worst. This sort of phenomenon has been repeated at considerable intervals over and over again, and it has always been suppressed by force. The Irish are, unhappily, prone to crime, but they are also the easiest people in the world to coerce.

There has never been in England a successful murder conspiracy because we dislike murder so whole-heartedly. You can suppress murder by so-called force—police measures and the administration of justice. I hope the Government will do that. I recognise that my right hon. Friend's speech intimated that they will. It is a question of primary importance. It does not matter so much whether you have Ireland an independent Republic, a Dominion, or a Federal Province, or part of the United Kingdom. All that matters is that murder should not succeed in Ireland. That is vital to the whole world and to the interests of civilisation itself. If murder succeeds the bottom drops out of civilised society. The first thing to do prior to political reform is to prevent the success of murder, and that is done by punishing the murderers. Whatever you may be, Unionist, Sinn Fein or Home Rule, nothing is so necessary as to hang murderers in the present state of Ireland. I hope the Government will persist in that part of their policy. What I rose to do was to invite the Government to say whether they are changing their policy, which the Colonial Secretary has described as a well-considered scheme of Federation, into one of Dominion Home Rule. If so, the House of Commons should be told, and it should not be whispered into the ears of the right hon. Member for Derby, who attended with a deputation to the Prime Minister. Declarations of the Government policy ought to be made by the Government to the House of Commons, and not elsewhere.

I rise in response to the Noble Lord's question. I had not the pleasure of being present at the conference this afternoon, owing to my duties here. I am not aware of any change of policy on the part of the Government with reference to Ireland, but I am sure that neither the Noble Lord nor the Committee will expect me to make any announcement by way of paraphrase, nor, indeed, to attempt to represent what the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister alone, can convey.

I am sure that all of us, as the Committee always does, listened with pleasure to the speech of the learned Attorney-General. We recognise his frankness, his sincerity, his loyalty to his chief, and his kindness of heart. But, having said that, I think those of us who have from time to time asked questions of the Irish Office as to the state of affairs in Ireland, and, as the result of those questions, have had letter after letter from the South of Ireland expressing an exceeding bitter cry from people left defenceless, whose appeal for help and protection has been cast aside as one that cannot be fulfilled, feel that something more is wanted. When the Attorney-General sat down, I asked myself what he had said that would enable the Committee to feel that something more was going to be done to help these people who are crying for protection and assistance to the British Government, which is, after all, responsible for the government of Ireland. On Monday last I asked the Leader of the House whether he was aware that continual applications were being made from the south of Ireland to the Government for help and protection, that the reply was that the forces in Ireland were unable, in the majority of cases, to give them protection, and that in many cases the people themselves were advised to leave Ireland and to go elsewhere if they valued their lives. The Leader of the House replied that he would be sorry to think that that was the case, and that he was sure that the Government was getting the trouble better in hand. Since I came into the House this afternoon I have had two more letters from Ireland in addition to the many I have already received, and if the Committee will bear with me, I will venture to read a few phrases from them, as they very poignantly tell, in my opinion, what is the position of affairs there. One of these letters is signed, and the other is not. The reason, as we all know, for its not being signed is that the writer thought it too dangerous to append his signature. A great deal of this letter amplifies and bears out what was said by the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Derby, as to the farcical nature of the Government of the King in Ireland. It is in reference to the question I asked last Monday, which has, no doubt, been reported in the papers. It begins:

"You are perfectly right. The police are unable to protect themselves or their barracks. They are murdered daily, and two-thirds of the police barracks in Ireland are destroyed. Obviously, they are perfectly right when they tell people that they can give them no protection. Brave men die daily; widows and orphans wail, and ruined men look at their burned homes, or search hopelessly for their driven cattle, while the Government drivel over the most absurd Home Rule Bill. Everyone here is for an Irish Republic, not because they like it, but because any sort of government is better than none. The Royal Irish Constabulary are on the edge of revolt. How can it be otherwise when they are daily shot down like mad dogs? The military guards are simply farcical; surprising and disarming them is the amusement of the volunteers. Are you all mad at Westminster?"

At the end he says:

"It is apparently now contemplated by the Government to pass some new law for trial before judges and courts-martial. They forget that no court can convict without evidence, and that without evidence—and there is no one who dare give evidence—no judge would act either, and if they did they would be murdered. The reign of terror is complete."

I got our letter from a naval officer who had a house in Ireland which has just been burned to the ground. Last year he had two farms on which he was mainly dependent for his income. They were also burnt. His tenant has been driven away under threat. He says:

"I have received no compensation. I am unable to get compensation. The only thing I never fail to receive from the British Government is demands for my Income Tax."

When the Chief Secretary was appointed and Sir Nevil Macready was appointed Commander-in-Chief in Ireland, we were told there would be a change, there would be a system devolved of some kind. It is not for us to suggest. There are many things we might suggest. Something should be done to get hold of the arms that are scattered through the length and breadth of Ireland. I noticed in the paper the other day that in the occupied area of Germany the Commander-in-Chief had issued an order that all the arms in the district were to be given up by a fixed date this month or some heavy penalty would be inflicted. Why cannot some such order be made, and why cannot districts be encircled by the military, and every man, woman and, child be searched, and every person found with arms deported? Something must be done. Men cannot be allowed to live in this state of terror. You have read the charge of the Judge at Cork, and that scandalous murder of Colonel Smyth when he was shot down like cattle in a shambles, sitting in his armchair in a club at Cork. They never yet got sufficient jurymen to bring in a verdict of guilty of murder against some person or persons known or unknown because they are terrified by this fear from serving on a jury. So it is all through the length and breadth of the South of Ireland. The people of England do not realise it. People in Ireland say, "Give us a Republic. Give us anything, for, after all, we would rather have some Government than no Government. The only policy, apparently, of the Government in Ireland is to drive us all to distraction, so that we shall unite in demanding a Republic."

I am going to vote, and my friends who act with me will vote, with the Government, but if we believed there was any such statement by the Prime Minister in reference to Ulster as has been suggested by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Thomas) I should certainly vote against them.

Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £113,920, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 42; Noes, 181.

Division No. 236.]

AYES.

[11.0 p.m.

Barnes, Major H. (Newcastle, E.)

Hogge, James Myles

Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)

Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)

Kelly, Edward J. (Donegal, East)

Robertson, John

Briant, Frank

Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M.

Rose, Frank H.

Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.

Kiley, James D.

Sexton, James

Devlin, Joseph

Lunn, William

Shaw, Thomas (Preston)

Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)

Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian)

Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)

Entwistle, Major C. F.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Sitch, Charles H.

Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne)

Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.)

Thomas, Rt. Hon. James H. (Derby)

Graham, W. (Edinburgh, Central)

Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.)

Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey)

Guest, J. (York, W. R., Hemsworth)

Morgan, Major D. Watts

Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West)

Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)

Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness and Ross)

Walsh, Stephen (Lancaster, Ince)

Hartshorn, Vernon

Newbould, Alfred Ernest

Waterson, A. E.

Williams, Aneurin (Durham, Consett)

Wintringham, T.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES. ——

Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Stourbrdge)

Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.)

Mr. T. P. O'Connor and Mr. T. Griffiths.

Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton)

Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)

NOES.

Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte

Grant, James A.

O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H.

Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S.

Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.)

Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin)

Armitage, Robert

Gregory, Holman

Parker, James

Baird, Sir John Lawrence

Greig, Colonel James William

Parkinson, Albert L. (Blackpool)

Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley

Gritten, W. G. Howard

Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry

Balfour, George (Hampstead)

Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro')

Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike

Banner, Sir John S. Harmood-

Hallwood, Augustine

Perkins, Walter Frank

Barnett, Major R. W.

Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by)

Perring, William George

Barnston, Major Harry

Hancock, John George

Pollock, Sir Ernest M.

Bell, Lieut.-Col. W. C. H. (Devizes)

Hanna, George Boyle

Prescott, Major W. H.

Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.

Hanson, Sir Charles Augustin

Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G.

Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)

Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton)

Pulley, Charles Thornton

Bennett, Thomas Jewell

Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston)

Purchase, H. G.

Betterton, Henry B.

Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.)

Raeburn, Sir William H.

Bigland, Alfred

Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)

Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.

Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West)

Hinds, John

Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East)

Borwick, Major G. O.

Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy

Reid, D. D.

Bowyer, Captain G. E. W.

Hood, Joseph

Remer, J. R.

Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.

Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central)

Renwick, George

Brassey, Major H. L. C.

Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian)

Richardson, Sir Albion (Camberwell)

Breese, Major Charles E.

Hopkins, John W. W.

Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich)

Bridgeman, William Clive

Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley)

Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford)

Bruton, Sir James

Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead)

Roundell, Colonel R. F.

Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A.

Hunter, General Sir A. (Lancaster)

Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A.

Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James

Hunter-Weston, Lieut.-Gen. Sir A. G.

Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D.

Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's)

Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S.

Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

Butcher, Sir John George

Jameson, J. Gordon

Seager, Sir William

Campbell, J. D. G.

Jodrell, Neville Paul

Seddon, J. A.

Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R.

Jones, J. T. (Carmarthen, Llanelly)

Shaw, William T. (Forfar)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

King, Commander Henry Douglas

Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.)

Carter, R. A. D. (Man., Withington)

Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement

Smith, Harold (Warrington)

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston)

Lane-Fox, G. R.

Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander

Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)

Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale)

Stanier, Captain Sir Beville

Chadwick, Sir Robert

Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.)

Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston)

Coates, Major Sir Edward F.

Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales)

Steel, Major S. Strang

Coats, Sir Stuart

Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd)

Stewart, Gershom

Cope, Major Wm.

Lloyd, George Butler

Strauss, Edward Anthony

Cory, Sir J. H. (Cardiff, South)

Long, Rt. Hon. Walter

Sturrock, J. Leng

Cowan, Sir H. (Aberdeen and Kinc.)

Lonsdale, James Rolston

Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead)

Craig, Captain C. C. (Antrim, South)

Lorden, John William

Terrell, Captain R. (Oxford, Henley)

Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy)

Loseby, Captain C. E.

Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South)

Davies, Sir David Sanders (Denbigh)

M'Guffin, Samuel

Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill)

Davies, Thomas (Cirencester)

Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie)

Thorpe, Captain John Henry

Dawes, James Arthur

McLaren, Robert (Lanark, Northern)

Townley, Maximilian G.

Dean, Lieut.-Commander P. T.

McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury)

Tryon, Major George Clement

Donald, Thompson

Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.

Waring, Major Walter

Edge, Captain William

Mallalieu, F. W.

Wheler, Lieut.-Cotonel C. H.

Edwards, Major J. (Aberavon)

Manville, Edward

Whitla, Sir William

Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M.

Marks, Sir George Croydon

Williams, Lieut.-Com. C. (Tavistock)

Farquharson, Major A. C.

Marriott, John Arthur Ransome

Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald

Fell, Sir Arthur

Matthews, David

Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert

Fisher, Rt. Hon. Herbert A. L.

Mitchell, William Lane

Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West)

Flannery, Sir James Fortescue

Molson, Major John Elsdale

Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading)

Ford, Patrick Johnston

Moore, Major-General sir Newton J.

Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak)

Forestier-Walker, L.

Morden, Colonel H. Grant

Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato

Forrest, Walter

Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash

Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich)

Fraser, Major Sir Keith

Mount, William Arthur

Younger, Sir George

Gange, E. Stanley

Nail, Major Joseph

Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham

Neal, Arthur

TELLERS FOR THE NOES. ——

Gilbert, James Daniel

Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)

Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward.

Goff, Sir R. Park

Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)

Gould, James C.

Norton-Griffiths, Lieut.-Col. Sir John

Original Question put, and agreed to.

Resolution to be reported upon Thursday next.

Committee to sit again to-morrow.

Merchant Shipping (Scottish Fishing Boats) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This Bill amends the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894,—that very comprehensive Act of nearly 300 pages on the Statute Book—as regards Part IV., which deals solely with fishing vessels. The object of the Bill is to bring Scotland within the provisions of Part IV., so far as it does not come within those provisions at the present time. For some reason or other Scotland stood out of the Act of 1894 as regards Part IV. owing to the precaution which is so characteristic of the Northern British, and which is reflected in this House by the right hon. Member for Paisley, and the right hon. Member for Peebles.

The other parts of the United Kingdom confidingly accepted it, and it has been such a success that the Scottish people are now very anxious to take advantage of it. It will bring all Scottish fishermen under the Act. Disputes between fishermen and skippers will be settled by the superintendent of the mercantile marine officers of the Board. Those officers will be authorised to inquire into deaths and injuries. The Bill will apply to Scottish fishing vessels of all sizes. With regard to trawlers of 25 tons and upwards it will provide for agreements, accounts of wages and certificates of discharge on Board of Trade forms. That will be a protection to the fishermen and if they are improperly discharged they will receive compensation. The Bill also empowers the superintendents of mercantile marine offices of the Board to see that apprenticeship indentures are properly drawn up. Last year there were considerable disputes in the fishing trade in Scotland and an officer of the Board of Trade went down. His inquiries showed that there was a general desire on the part of owners, skippers and fishermen to have this part of the Act applied to Scotland. It is in response to that desire that this Bill is introduced.

For a great part of my life I have had some contact with fishing boats in Scotland. I think that the real explanation of the introduction of the Bill is that the basis of the management of fishing vessels in Scotland has rather changed since the original Act was introduced. In many parts of Scotland the old system is still maintained whereby the fishing vessels, mostly drifters—trawlers are only just making their appearance in Scotland—are managed as family concerns. The crews have shares in the proceeds of the catches, and in many cases the skipper is the father or relative of the crew. I speak with some small knowledge of this matter. Those men performed excellent service during the war and were of the greatest value to the Navy, and I take this opportunity of paying that small tribute to them. I am afraid the fishing industry is becoming industrial, and it will be a great pity if the system I have described is affected. Each man in the past owned a share and they went to sea in all weathers. If they are to be turned into wage-earners for great fishing companies that will, I fear, be a bad day for those engaged in fishing. This Bill deals tremendously with regulations, and I am sorry it is necessary to apply it to Scottish fishermen. Thank goodness, nine-tenths of the fishing industry in England get on without half these regulations.

There is a big change coming over the industry and that is what is causing this Bill to be brought forward. It is the fact that until recent years fishing crews were really family affairs and practically every member had a share. When a dispute arose between the skipper and his crew they settled it in seamanlike fashion between themselves. The hon. Member who has just spoken said that trawlers were a recent development in Scotland, but that is not the case. I quite admit trawlers from Hull came to our waters and the prosperity of Hull has been largely due to the poaching on our shores. On the whole, I am inclined to suggest that this Bill ought to go through the House, because it is necessary in view of the recent developments of the fishing industry in Scotland.

I offer no objection to the passage of this Bill, but would like to ask the hon. Gentleman one question about it, as I represent a constituency where there are 700 fishing boats. The essential part of the Bill is to be found in Clause 1, Sub-section (1), applying to Scotland the provisions of Part IV of the Act of 1894. Section 376 of that Act deals with discipline and imposes for the first time on the fishermen of Scotland the rigorous and perhaps necessary penalties which exist in the consolidating Act. I did not gather whether the representatives of the men had been taken fully into consultation, and if a code of a severer kind is to be incorporated it is only right that it should be done voluntarily by the masters and men. I hope the hon. Gentleman therefore can assure me that before the Bill passes the terms of the section dealing with discipline will be submitted to the men, so that we may have this industrialisation of the fishing industry with the full concurrence of both parties.

The real question in regard to this Bill is this: Do the fishing community of Scotland require and wish for this Bill? I have made it my business to find out, and as far as I can gather they do require and wish for it. I do not think my hon. and gallant Friend for Central Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) was far off the mark. The real reason for this Bill is that the fishing industry has changed in Scotland. Twenty or thirty years ago the boats were smaller and did not go so far from home, and the crews were organised on an entirely different basis, whereas now they are much bigger, they go much further away from home, and they stay away a much longer time. As a result, the skipper requires disciplinary powers which he never had before and which he will have if this Bill is passed.

All the representatives of the fishing industry have been consulted. It has been pressed upon the Board of Trade that this Bill is desirable by everybody concerned, skippers, fishermen, and owners.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Public Libraries (Scotland) Bill

Order for Second Reading read.

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

This is a Bill to amend the Public Libraries Consolidation (Scotland) Act, 1887. It is really a Bill of formal character. It proposes only to increase the maximum rate which may be levied by the local authority for the purposes of the Bill from 1d. to 3d. My right hon. Friend the Secretary for Scotland has been in consultation with all the rating authorities who are concerned, and they are satisfied that the particular maximum which is now fixed is suitable to maintain the libraries in an efficient condition.

Quite briefly I wish to put a few points. This Bill is limited to a maximum rate of 3d. in Scotland. This same subject was the object of legislation for England and Wales in 1919. No such maximum rate was there imposed: the amount was left to the discretion of the Local Authorities and the Education Committees. Why, if this discretionary power has been left to England and Wales, is a maximum rate made for Scotland? The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Scotland—whose absence, and especially the cause of it, all his Scottish colleagues deplore—said, I would remind the right hon. Gentleman opposite, no later than May, 1919, that it was unthinkable that there should be a different law on this matter on the two sides of the border. I should like some explanation from the Lord Advocate why this is so? The Bill, too, passed in connection with Scottish education in 1918 empowered the county education authorities to levy a rate for public library purposes, and the rate was not determined by any maximum of 3d. We have, therefore, precedent for it, so far as Scotland is concerned, that educationally there is no determination of the amount.

The third point I want to make is the variation of the 3d. rate in the Scottish boroughs which would be very significant. Take three typical Scottish boroughs—my own city of Edinburgh, Paisley, and Peterhead. A threepenny rate would produce: in Edinburgh £1,050; Paisley £573; Peterhead £393. There is the general point that the penny rate allowed by the Consolidated Act of 1887 to-day must obviously represent at least 2d. So that what my right hon. Friend is doing is tying down the local authorities in Scotland. If he would agree that in Scotland the local authorities should have the same discretionary power as in England and Wales then we in Scotland would not feel that we were suffering any inequality of treatment so far as the Imperial Parliament is concerned.

I am sure that all Scottish Members will agree that we cannot pass a Bill of this kind without, at all events, a brief discussion. I agree that with regard to Scotland we are placed at a disadvantage as compared with English conditions. In the case of England, there is no limit in the Bill, and it is left entirely to the discretion of the English local authorities to determine their library rate. That is the first complaint I wish to make. In the second place, if we pass on to the terms of the Irish Bill, Scotland is placed at a disadvantage even to a more marked extent The Irish Bill proposes a threepenny limit, but it also provides that in the case of county boroughs there may be imposed over and above the threepenny rate an additional threepence to meet the heavier obligations which fall upon libraries in the urban areas. That is not all. In the Irish Bill there is a Clause which gives them an extra allowance for 1921, or for a recent year an extra power to make good the additional expense to which they have been put by the maintenance of their public libraries. In county boroughs, therefore, there is an additional threepence and extra provision for the current year at a time of exceptional difficulty.

I cannot agree with the suggestion made that this Bill is regarded by the local authorities in Scotland as adequate. We must keep clearly in mind that public libraries in Scotland were in great difficulties before the war, and they found the penny limit quite insufficient because prices have been rising ever since 1896 and they have affected the public libraries just as they have affected other institutions. They found it very difficult to carry on before the war, and so far from being excessive many of these libraries will not be able to carry on efficiently in the urban areas under this Bill. That is the contention which is advanced by the Scottish Libraries Association, which is better able to judge than rating authorities where you often have a large county vote usually directed to keeping down the local assessments. That is a consideration which must be kept clearly in mind. Not very long ago when we had in Scotland a Provisional Order inquiry promoted by the Corporation of Glasgow they secured a threepenny rate under that Bill. That has also been secured by one or two other localities in Scotland so that this Bill does nothing more than come up to that limit, and that is insufficient. I am advised by the Scottish Libraries Association that they believe the case of Scotland might be met by introducing the Second Clause of the Irish Bill giving power to impose over and above the threepenny limit an extra threepence for the admittedly heavier obligations the Burgh authorities are now called upon to carry. That is a definite suggestion which will be made later. I think if it were adopted it might go some distance, at all events, to put us on the same foundation as other countries, and remove one of the innumerable injustices which, by night and day, are inflicted here and elsewhere upon our native land.

I regret to have to differ, to some extent, with my two hon. Friends who have just spoken, but I consider that this Bill, from a Scottish point of view, meets all the requirements of the case. I admit that the libraries are in great difficulties, but the ratepayers are also under hardships, and it seems to ma that when you have an opportunity of obtaining from the Government a Bill which allows the Library rate to be increased from 1d. to 3d., it meets all the necessities of the case at the present moment. I have had many representations made to me on the subject, but I trust the House will take it that there is no authority in Scotland, whether urban or rural, which cannot work to the full extent on a possible 3d. rate. I do not care what the Association asks for. I know my fellow-countrymen as well as any Member of the House, and that they will ask for a great deal more than they ever hope to obtain. I hope the House will agree to the Bill right away without any further discussion.

I quite share with my two hon. Friends opposite the view that the Government might well have left it to the discretion of the local authorities not to indulge in any great extravagance. At the same time, my views have been somewhat modified by the statement of the Lord Advocate that local authorities have been consulted in this matter, and they agree that a 3d. rate is quite sufficient. My own personal views are modified by this fact, that I believe the great bulk of the ratepayers will welcome the limit put upon the rate in view of the high, and great increase of, local rates in Scotland, as they look with somewhat jealous eye on local authorities having a discretionary power in this matter. In view of all that, I think the best thing is to accept the limit put upon the increase of rate as laid down in the Bill.

It is not the case that the suggestion to impose no limit is based on a desire to make any rate on any community in Scotland. The suggestion of my hon. Friend simply means that the power should be given to local authorities to impose whatever they consider necessary in order to provide an efficient library for the community. In some districts no doubt that could be well done with a 3d. rate. In some of the smaller towns not much could be done in the old days with a 1d. rate, and a 3d. rate in these days of dear books will not carry you very much further. So that practically a 3d. rate at the present day does not mean more than a 1d. rate in the old days, and I know of several towns in Scotland where the 1d. rate was absolutely insufficient, and I am quite sure under the new conditions a 3d. rate will be insufficient. The community as a whole will be quite willing to tax themselves at even a higher rate in order to provide one of the most necessary elements in our social life in these times, namely, an efficient library. I am surprised that the House should think it necessary to prevent Scotsmen taxing themselves in this way. It shows that the suggestion which is current, that Scotsmen are niggardly, is really not believed, because they desire to protect Scotsmen from levying a rate upon themselves. That is very laudable, but I do not think it is necessary. The local authorities in Scotland should be trusted and allowed to impose whatever rate they consider necessary in the circumstances. They will be taxing themselves, and if they do not need to go beyond the 3d. rate they will not do so. I find the eye of the hon. Bart, the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir G. Younger) upon me, and I am afraid it will spoil my peroration, so I will not say anything further, but support the views of my hon. Friends, that the people of Scotland should be allowed to tax themselves; if they want to, and so far as they desire.

It is not at all a novel thing to have a maximum rate in Scotland for certain purposes. This is only one of several cases of the same kind. There are certain people in Scotland who like to tax other people in Scotland. I have often noticed that authorities who do not pay very much taxation themselves, sometimes are very apt to tax other people up to the limit of the Act of Parliament. In those circumstances I do not think there ought to be too great an extension of that power.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock , Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at a Quarter before Twelve o'clock.