House of Commons
Tuesday, August 3, 1920
Private Business
Provisional Order Bills (Standing Orders applicable thereto complied with),—Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, namely:—
Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill.
Ordered, That the Bill be read a Second time To-morrow.
Mid-Glamorgan Water Bill.
Wallasey Corporation Bill.
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
Life Association of Scotland Bill [ Lords ].
Uxbridge and Wycombe District Gas Bill [ Lords ].
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.
Workington Harbour and Dock Bill [ Lords ].
Read a Second time, and committed.
Ordered, That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bill on Thursday.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Port of London Authority (Consolidation) Bill [ Lords ] (by Order),
Second Reading deferred till Friday.
Dunfermline and District Tramways Order Confirmation Bill [ Lords ],
Read the Third time, and passed, without Amendment.
Inverness Water and Gas Provisional Order Bill,
"to confirm a Provisional Order under the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, relating to Inverness Water and Gas," presented by Mr. Munro.
Ordered, that Standing Order 193 a be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the First time.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Bill accordingly read the First time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. [Bill 196.]
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 4) Bill,
Ordered, That Standing Order 211 be suspended, and that the Committee on Unopposed Bills have leave to consider the Bill on Thursday.—[ The Chairman of Ways and Means. ]
Oral Answers to Questions
Questions
Bolshevik Propaganda (Great Britain)
asked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any documents have been sent to London by the British Minister in Finland and received by the Foreign Office implicating General Sir Hubert Gough, late head of the inter-Allied military mission in Finland, Commander Grenfell, formerly head of a naval mission to Finland, and Professor Cotter, late Press attaché to the British Legation in Helsingfors, in plotting to introduce a Bolshevist régime in this country, or, if not, from whom were these documents received; were the documents the originals of the correspondence or copies; and, if copies, what steps have been taken to ascertain that these copies are correct duplicates of the originals?
I have seen the documents in question, which were copies of the correspondence, and have nothing to add to the answer given by the Lord Privy Seal on July 13th to the hon. Member for Islington East.
From whom did the hon. Gentleman receive these copies? Was it from the hon. Member for East Islington?
I received them from two different sources, one official and the other private.
Does the Foreign Office supply documents to Members of this House that deal with the character of a very gallant officer without ascertaining that they are authentic? Do they come from any Tom, Dick, and Harry without inquiry?
Certainly not.
Azerbaijan
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any means of communication exist with the Republic of Azerbaijan; whether the late Government of Azerbaijan was recognised de facto by His Majesty's Government; whether a diplomatic representative has been or was sent to Azerbaijan; whether there are the diplomatic representatives of any other Power except Russia in Azerbaijan; and whether any attempt has been made to communicate with the present Government of Azerbaijan with regard to British prisoners at Baku?
No direct official means of communication with the Republic of Azerbaijan exist. A Note was addressed to the Commissar of the Azerbaijan Soviet by the Acting British Chief Commissioner for the Caucasus when the British were first placed under arrest at Baku, and was delivered through Dr. Alshibaya, the Georgian representative in Baku, but no reply was ever received. Indirect efforts to communicate through the Azerbaijan Delagation in Paris and the Netherlands Government have been equally fruitless.
The answers to the second and third parts of the question are in the affirmative. No reliable information is available in regard to the fourth part. It is believed that the Italian and Persian representatives are still at Baku, and possibly others; but it is doubtful whether their Governments can readily communicate with them, and a telegraphic inquiry on this point has been addressed to the Italian Government. The last part of the question is answered by the reply to the first part.
May I ask whether, as the late Government of Azerbaijan was recognised de facto, the present Government has been, or will be, recognised? If not, will not that account for the delay in getting information about our prisoners?
Is it not a fact that this Azerbaijan Government is more or less a myth, and that these men are really in the hands of a Soviet army?
As the hon. and gallant Member for Hull (Lieut.-Commander Kenworthy) is aware, the original Azerbaijan Government was recognised by His Majesty's Government, but there are at present no diplomatic relations with the succeeding Government. I think there is a good deal to be said for the view expressed by my Noble and gallant Friend (Viscount Curzon).
Is it not that the fact that our non-recognition has had a good deal to do with the delay in getting intelligence and news about our unfortunate prisoners?
No, I do not think so.
German Debts (British Clearing House)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if the full time allowed to Germany for the settlement of debts under the terms of the Peace Treaty has now expired; and what steps are being taken to secure payment for English creditors?
I have been asked to answer this question.
The time allowed to Germany for the settlement of debts has not yet expired. British creditors were given up to the 12th July to file notice of the debts due to them, and a large proportion of their claims have not been put in to the British Clearing Office until recently. Some 30,000 claims were notified to the German Clearing Office immediately upon its formal establishment in May, and others are being notified monthly. The German Office under the Treaty has three months from the date of notification in which to admit or object to them. Debts will be paid immediately upon their admission.
Is it impossible to pay disputed debts before the Joint Arbitration Tribunal is set up, and has a President been found for that body?
That is quite a different question from the one on the Paper. I do not think a Chairman has yet been found, but we are doing everything we can to accelerate things.
Passports (France)
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the discomfort suffered by applicants for passports for France owing to the lack of accommodation at the office in Gower Street; and will he make representations to the French authorities in this country with a view to mitigating the conditions?
I understand that this matter is already receiving the attention of the French authorities here, who are taking steps to remove any inconvenience caused by the temporary lack of accommodation at the Office in Gower Street resulting from the unusual rush of the holiday season.
Will the hon. Gentleman suggest to the French authorities that as this is only a question of collecting fees, it might be done by post, and so save this tremendous inconvenience?
I do not know whether we can make that suggestion, but the French authorities have received our representations in a most friendly manner.
May I ask whether, as the Secretary for War is the chief authority for passports in this country, the question ought not to be addressed to him?
British Army
War Office (Effects Branch)
asked the Secretary of State for War how many cases still remain to be dealt with by the effects branch of the War Office; whether the estates of any soldiers killed in 1918 have yet been reached; when it is expected that all cases will have been dealt with; what is the number of staff now employed upon dealing with them; and whether reduction of staff is proceeding pari passu with the reduction of the number of cases?
The number of War gratuities remaining to be dealt with by the Effects Branch of the War Office is approximately 2,400, and it is anticipated that these cases will be disposed of shortly. All cases of soldiers killed during the War have been taken up. There is no separate staff now dealing exclusively with the issue of War gratuities. The staff of the Effects Branch now number 324, and is being reduced pari passu with the reduction of the work to be provided for.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the staff are now doing?
If the hon. and gallant Gentleman will put down a question, I will reply.
Troops (Mesopotamia)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether any officers holding temporary commissions, or men enlisted under the Military Service Acts, are still compulsorily retained in Mesopotamia; and, if so, how many?
I am not aware that there are any demobilisable officers or other ranks of the British Service compulsorily retained in Mesopotamia, other than those in hospital or undergoing detention.
What is meant by "demobilisable" officers?
I think the word conveys exactly what it is intended to mean—officers who can be demobilised.
Am I to understand that there are no officers in Mesopotamia at present holding temporary commissions and desiring to get home who have not been released?
I can add nothing to the information I have given.
It is in the question.
Royal Army Ordnance Corps (Shoemakers)
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that service overseas is usually considered to entitle a soldier to extra pay, he will explain why, in the case of the Royal Army Ordnance Corps, the shoemakers on home service from the date of the issue of Army Council Instruction No. 1,150, received 1s. per day (working pay) and in addition a bonus averaging 20s. per week under the authority of that Instruction, while men on overseas service, suffering all the hardships of the campaign in France, Italy, Greece, Egypt and Mesopotamia, were paid at the rate of 6d. per day (corps pay) only and were informed that the Army Council Instruction which had been applied to the Ordnance shoemakers in England did not apply to them; and if he will give instructions that Army Council Instruction No. 1,150 shall be applied to Ordnance shoemakers who served overseas or, alternatively, that the injustice under which these men are suffering shall be removed by granting to the overseas Ordnance shoemakers as a gratuity the difference between the 6d. corps pay which they actually received and the 1s. per day working pay which their comrades in England received from the date of the issue of the Army Council Instruction in question?
All shoemakers of the Royal Army Ordnance Corps, whether at home or abroad, were paid regimental pay plus corps pay with the exception of those in two command shops who, for special reasons, were treated like the regimental shoemakers.
Is it the fact that some men who have made claims for this back pay have already received it, and why are men serving abroad receiving different treatment from men who served at home and who are doing exactly the same kind of work?
I cannot give information as to the two cases the hon. Gentleman has in mind, but if he would write to me I will inquire.
Will the right hon. Gentleman receive a deputation, seeing that those who represent the boot industries are somewhat pestered with correspondence on this point?
I think it would be better first to elucidate the facts regarding the two cases the hon. Member has in mind.
Would not a deputation do all that is necessary?
Hay Supplies
asked the Secretary of State for War what quantity of hay is now in the hands of the War Office; whether he is aware that, in reply to a question in the House in December, 1919, it was stated that the supply would not last beyond last April; and whether there is a dump or dumps which will take a long time to clear?
It is not possible to say definitely how long the hay now in the hands of the War Office will last, as this largely depends on how far our forces overseas can be maintained out of local resources. It is true that it was stated in December, 1919, that the supply of hay in the hands of the War Office would not last beyond last April, but, owing to the reduction which has since taken place in the numbers of animals, and their distribution both at home and overseas, together with the improved harvest prospects in Egypt, it is now possible that the stocks will last beyond the current year.
Decorations
asked the Secretary of State for War whether soldiers are permitted to wear their decorations in khaki uniform; and whether when on church parade in khaki they are permitted to wear their medals?
An order was published on the 14th July, 1919, under which, as a temporary measure, permission was given to officers and men to wear their decorations and medals in service dress uniform when parading in review order with their units. This order covers the wearing of decorations and medals on church parade.
Is that order still in existence?
The answer supplied me is that it covers, so I presume it is still in existence.
Brigade of Guards
18 & 19.
asked the Secretary of State for War (1) if he has come to any decision as to one record office superseding all the five regimental headquarters of the Brigade of Guards;
(2) whether, in view of the anxiety raised by his suggestion to amalgamate the headquarters of the Scots, Irish, and Welsh Guards into one record office, he will now make a definite statement that the suggestion has been finally dropped?
The whole matter is still receiving consideration, and I regret that I am not in a position to make any definite statement at present.
Does the right hon. Gentleman still adhere to his assurances that he proposes maintaining these Territorial units under their national designations?
They are not Territorial units. They are the regular units of the Brigade of Guards.
Territorial Division, London
asked the Secretary of State for War if he will make a statement of the cost entailed of the various headquarters and staffs commanding the Territorial Division and Brigades in London; and whether, in view of economy, he will consider the advisability of returning to the pre-War custom by which these duties were carried out by officers of the Foot Guards in conjunction with their other duties, and thus save the whole of the above cost?
The hon. and gallant Member is mistaken in thinking that the command of the London Division was combined with other duties before the War. The custom he refers to applied only to four of the Infantry Brigades, which were commanded by the four officers commanding the regiments of Foot Guards, with their regimental adjutants as brigade majors. This arrangement was open to the strong objection that it involved a change of staff on mobilisation, and it was decided that it ought not to be revived on the re-constitution of the Territorial Force. The extra cost of separate staffs (assuming that if the pre-War arrangement had been continued it would have been extended to the colonel and adjutant of the Welsh Guards) is about £9,000 per annum.
Temporary Officers (Gratuities)
asked the Secretary of State for War why, considering that officers re-employed during the War who had previously retired on gratuity were only eligible, like officers in receipt of retired pay, to a gratuity at a lower rate than that applicable in the case of a temporary officer, these officers should not now be eligible for an increased gratuity in the same manner that re-employed officers who had previously retired on retired pay are eligible for increased retired pay?
I would refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply to his question of the 6th July, to which I can add nothing.
Discharges
asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in connection with purchase of discharge from the Army, an inquisition is held into the family history and previous domestic position of the parents; whether he will state the nature and number of questions asked; and whether discharge depends upon the payment of the fee or on the correct answer being given to the questions?
No, Sir; unless the hon. Member is referring to the inquiries made in the interest of the soldier for the purpose of substantiating a claim put forward on compassionate grounds for the reduction of the amount to be paid for the purchase of discharge. As regards the last part of the question, the consummation of a discharge by purchase, which has been authorised, depends on the payment of the purchase money.
British Troops (Persia)
asked the Secretary of State for War if he can give any information regarding the retreat of the British troops from Enzeli, on the Caspian Sea?
On the evacuation of Enzeli and Resht the 36th Brigade, of which these troops formed a part, was concentrated in the neighbourhood of Kasvin with detachments at Zinjau and Menzil, watching the approaches from Tabriz and Resht.
Demobilisation
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can state when Lance-Corporal W. H. Baugh, No. 18,849, M. T. Police, Jaffa, Palestine, is to be demobilised?
Inquiries are already being made in this case, and I will inform the hon. Member of the result as soon as possible.
Transport
Waiting Vehicles, Piccadilly
asked the Home Secretary whether police officers have been ordered to prevent motor vehicles stopping anywhere in the centre or at the sides of the more important London streets; and whether the new orders are applied to horse-drawn traffic and to public service vehicles; and, if so, whether arrangements can be made by the police to park the vehicles referred to in the less important streets or on centrally-situated ranks where the width of the street permits?
I am informed by the Commissioner of Police that an experiment is being tried in Piccadilly to see how far the removal of waiting vehicles of every class (except cabs on authorised ranks) from the centre of the road facilitates traffic. This action is at present limited to Piccadilly. For some time past the police have been doing their utmost to prevent obstruction by vehicles of any class waiting against the kerb in the more congested highways. Arrangements for parking in suitable streets have always been in existence, and these arrangements are modified or extended as occasion requires.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the police have full information, and are able to give the information to those who want to stop in places like Piccadilly, so that they can know where to go?
No doubt that would be so.
Motor Car Act (Police Controls)
asked the Home Secretary how many police controls were in operation in the Metropolitan Police area for detecting infringements of the Motor Car Act between a.m. 31st July and p.m. 2nd August; how many police officers were employed and with what success; what were the maximum figures for any one day; and were any cases of dangerous driving reported?
There were 157 controls during the three days. 153 officers were employed. 300 cases were reported for prosecution by the officers on control duty, one of which related to dangerous driving. 196 cases were the maximum reported, namely, on the 1st August (Sunday), and five cases of dangerous driving were reported by police on ordinary duty.
How many defaulters were sent to prison without the option of a fine?
I must have notice of that question.
Will the right hon. Gentleman see his way to abolish this waste of effort in these serious times?
I do not consider there is any waste of effort.
Motor Chars-A-Bancs
asked the Home Secretary whether the police authorities have received complaints with reference to the throwing of bottles and pennies from motor chars-a-bancs, and with reference to the danger thereby caused to children and to other users of the road; whether any special steps are being taken to deal with the general increase of this and other motor traffic; whether the formation of a special branch of road police mounted on motor cycles has been considered; and would such a mobile force be far better able to protect the public and stop dangerous driving than the employment of such large numbers of constables in the detection of cars in an infraction of the speed limit?
Before the right hon. Gentleman answers this question, may I ask if there is any means of preventing this concerted attack on a democratic means of transit by wealthy motoring interests?
No complaints of the particular sort mentioned in the question have reached the Commissioner of Police, but he is taking steps, and so, I have no doubt, are other police authorities, to deal with the increase of chars-a-bancs and other motor traffic. The suggestion of employing police on motor cycles is under consideration, but if adopted it would not relieve the police of the duty of taking the steps necessary to check excessive speed.
Have any of these drivers had their licences covered with penalties for furious driving?
I must ask for notice.
asked the Home Secretary whether motor coaches or char-a-bancs require to be licensed and, if so, what are the conditions governing the grant of the licence; and whether any similar conditions are imposed on motor lorries which are roughly adapted, on emergency, to carry large parties of excursionists or holiday-makers?
I have been asked to reply to this question. In the Metropolitan Police area motor coaches and char-a-bancs which ply for hire are licensed by the Commissioner of Police of the metropolis. In other towns and urban districts these vehicles require to be licensed under the Town Police Clauses Acts, or, in some of the larger towns, under Private Acts of Parliament obtained by the corporations concerned. Such conditions are imposed as the licensing authority consider to be reasonably necessary for the safety of the public. Motor lorries do not require to be licensed, even though used occasionally for carrying excursionists or holiday makers, unless they ply for hire.
Could not the conditions, alluded to in the hon. Gentleman's answer be standardised between the Metropolitan Police authorities and local authorities throughout the country generally?
I have not given consideration to the matter, but will do so.
asked the Home Secretary ii he will consider, when granting licences for motor coaches or char-a bancs, the desirability of insisting on another man, in addition to the driver, being carried by these vehicles for the purpose of sitting at the rear of each vehicle provided with proper means so that he can keep himself in communication with the driver in order to facilitate passing traffic in narrow or congested roads?
I have been asked to reply to this question. Licences to stand and ply for hire for motor coaches or char-a-bancs are issued by the Commissioner of Police of the metropolis for the Metropolitan Police area, and outside that area by urban district councils, subject to conditions which they may think fit to impose in their discretion provided that such conditions are within their powers. No Government Department has power to require another man in addition to the driver, although the licensing authority may do so if they wish. A general requirement that a man, in addition to the driver, should be at the rear of each such vehicle would impose heavy additional expense upon the proprietors of these vehicles.
Ministry of Transport (Estimates)
asked the Prime Minister if his attention has been called to the criticism of Admiral Lord Jellicoe in reference to the over-staffing of the Admiralty with railway officials by the Minister of Transport when First Lord of the Admiralty and Vice-Admiral of His Majesty's Fleet, with the deplorable results disclosed; and if he will see that a repetition of this is avoided as far as possible by a drastic revision of the Estimates of over £450,000 for administration in the new Ministry of Transport?
I have not myself read the book, but I am informed that the statements in the question do not at all represent the views expressed in it.
With a view to a further question on the subject, will my right hon. Friend read Lord Jellicoe's book and criticism of the Minister of Transport's administration when First Lord of the Admiralty?
Yes, I will try to do so, but not immediately.
Questions
Ex-Enemy Aliens
asked the Home Secretary if he will state the numbers of former enemy aliens, distinguishing between Germans and other enemy aliens, who have applied for permission to return to the United Kingdom to take up permanent residence since 11th January last, and the numbers of applications that have been granted respectively?
As I informed the hon. and learned Baronet on 13th May last, the number of applications under Section 10 (4) of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act, 1919, is 940. The Committee have recommended permission to land in 676 cases, deferred permission for periods of 6 or 12 months in 99 cases, and have refused to recommend permission in 130 cases. The remaining cases, 35 in number, have not yet been decided. Upwards of 85 per cent. of the cases relate to Germans.
asked the Home Secretary if he will state the numbers of former enemy aliens, distinguishing between Germans and other enemy aliens, who have applied for permission to enter the United Kingdom for temporary sojourn since the Armistice, the numbers of such applications that have been granted, and the conditions under which such applications have been granted?
Many applications from former enemy aliens, especially Germans, are received both at the Home Office and by the Passport Control Officers abroad for permission to visit the United Kingdom, which are at once refused because the applicants cannot show that there are "special grounds" for admission, as required by Section 10 (1) of the Aliens Restriction Act, 1919. It is not possible to give the number of such applications. As regards the conditions imposed on admission, I would refer to the answer given to the hon. Member for Southwark on the 15th July. The total number of former enemy aliens admitted on special grounds for short visits between 1st January and 30th June of this year was 4,529.
Have any of these visits been to the War Office?
I cannot say. Most of them were purely personal visits.
How many of these 4,000 remained in this country?
That I cannot say without notice. They are all very short periods.
Will there be any relaxation of the restrictions against Germans, in view of the War Office policy of forming an alliance with Germany in the near future?
Ex-Service Men
Ejectment Order, Newcastle-On-Tyne
asked the Home Secretary whether an ejectment order has recently been given at the Moot Hall, Newcastle-on-Tyne, against Mr. George Watson, an ex-soldier, with a wife and family, in favour of a German subject who had elected to be deported rather than be interned during the War; whether it was urged that a man with a wife and family who had served his country should not be dispossessed in favour of a German; whether the presiding magistrate, whilst sympathising with Mr. Watson, said he had no option but to make an order; and whether legislation can be introduced to meet such cases?
An ejectment order was granted against Mr. Watson on production of evidence that alternative accommodation, of which he has since availed himself, had been purchased for him. The order was issued in favour of the wife of a German subject who was interned in 1915 and repatriated in 1918 with other infirm or old persons. I am further informed that the Comrades of the Great War decided to abandon their intention of holding a protest meeting on learning that four sons of the German subject concerned had served in His Majesty's Forces during the War. In these circumstances, I do not think there is any case for proposing legislation.
War Department Offices
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the public feeling aroused by the announcement that by 1st April next all War Department offices in this country are to be staffed by serving soldiers; does this mean the dismissal before that date of every ex-service man now employed; and can he see his way so to amend the new Order as to permit ex-service men to retain their posts and only to fill vacancies, as they occur, with serving soldiers?
I would refer the hon. Member to my reply on 27th July to the hon. Member for Wednesbury.
Is there any change since that date? What is the position at this moment?
There is no change since 27th July. No instructions such as the hon. Member refers to have been issued by the War Office. He will find that in the answer.
Land Settlement (Scotland)
asked the Secretary for Scotland how much money has been expended in connection with land settlement under The Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919; and how the money expended has been apportioned to the various purposes authorised under the Act?
I fear that it is hardly possible to deal comprehensively with my hon. and gallant Friend's question in reply to a question; but it will probably meet his purpose if I state that, apart from expenditure out of the ordinary provisions of the Agriculture (Scotland) Fund, a sum of £256,000 has so far been borrowed from the Public Works Loan Commissioners for the purchase of estates under the Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919, while a further sum of £44,500 will be placed by the Commissioners at the disposal of the Board this month for a similar purpose.
asked the Secretary for Scotland how many acres have been acquired for land settlement under Part I. of The Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919; how many in addition have been made available under the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts during the same period; how many applications for land have been received from ex-service, men and others; how many of these have actually entered into occupation of the holdings; how many of the holdings upon which entry has been given are fully equipped with buildings; and how many have not yet had their rents fixed?
As the answer to my hon. and gallant Friend's question is rather lengthy and contains a number of figures, I propose to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
The following is the answer referred to:
Since 23rd December, 1919, when the Land Settlement (Scotland) Act, 1919, was passed, the Board have acquired 121,140 acres under Part I of that Act, and during the same period they secured 17,877 acres under the Small Landholders Acts. The total number of applications received by the Board up to the 30th June, 1920, is 15,851, namely 5,006 for new holdings, and 47 for enlargements from ex-service men, and 5,798 for new holdings, and 5,000 for enlargements from civilians. 3,308 applicants have withdrawn their applications, leaving an effective demand from 12,543 applicants. Of these, 1,621 applicants have entered into occupation of new holdings or enlargements allocated as follows: 1,014 new holdings and 607 enlargements. 337 holdings are not fully equipped with buildings, but in these cases temporary accommodation is provided for the holders in existing buildings either on the holdings or elsewhere or in Army huts, to such extent as to enable them to work their holdings. With regard to the rents, I refer the hon. and gallant Member to my reply to his question of the 28th June.
Dublin County War Pensions Committee
asked the Minister of Pensions how many women and how many ex-service men are em- ployed on the staff of the Dublin County War Pensions Committee at the office in Dawson Street, Dublin; how many of the women are war widows; is the office of treasurer held by an unmarried lady whose brothers are not ex-service men; and what is her salary?
There are 22 women, of whom one is a War widow, and five ex-service men on the staff of this Committee. The office of treasurer is it present held by a man. Steps have already been taken to impress upon the Committee the necessity of increasing the number of ex-service men in their employment, and this policy will be continued.
If they do not comply with the request of the hon. Gentleman, will he take steps to compel them to do so?
I do not think we have power to compel them, but we have power to refuse sanction to new appointments.
Can you not stop the salary of the Secretary?
Housing
asked the Minister of Health if he is aware that in allotting houses to ex-service men some municipal authorities give priority to men with the largest families regardless of their length of service; will he direct that the following information be demanded from applicants: date of joining the Army, length of service overseas, and wounds or decorations; and, seeing that ex-service man is a very vague term, can he take steps so that those who served longest in the field and endured the greatest hardship will be given preference?
The choice of tenants for their new houses is within the discretion of the local authorities. I have, however, recommended local authorities to bear in mind the special claims of ex-service men, and I believe that, generally, they are doing so.
Naval and Military Pensions and Grants
Royal Army Service Corps (Private Rayner)
asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office, if his attention has been called to the case of Private Rayner, No. 417,026, of the Royal Army Service Corps, the allowances to whose wife has been stopped by reason of the soldier's extension of service; and whether he can explain on what grounds the allowance is stopped when a soldier volunteers for extended service to his country.
Inquiries are being made, and I will let the hon. Member know the result as soon as possible.
Appeal Tribunals
asked the Minister of Pensions whether he can state who are members of the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, and when and how often does the Tribunal sit?
The members of the Pensions Appeal Tribunals for England and Wales are appointed by the Lord Chancellor. There are at the present time eight tribunals for men and one for officers. Each tribunal consists of
The tribunal for officers sits in London on one day in each week, or more frequently if the number of cases necessitates additional sittings.
Adopted Children (Allowance)
asked the Minister of Pensions why, if an adopted child receives a dependant's separation allowance during the lifetime of its adopted father, this allowance should cease when the father is killed?
The adopted child of a soldier who has been killed in the War is admissible to the benefit provided for children by the Royal Warrant, subject to the condition, laid down in Article 24 (3), that the child was regularly maintained by the soldier at the commencement of the War or at the date of his enlistment, whichever was the later. The grant of separation allowance in respect of a serving soldier is a matter for the Service Departments.
Mobilised Pensioner Service
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he will state under what authority pensionable time served in the Royal Navy after 31st March, 1919, is not allowed to count towards increase of pension; and whether such authority subordinates the Order A.W.O. 1809/19, which states that the basic rate of pension is to be 1½d. per diem for each year's service, there being no maximum, and to apply to all pensionable time?
The condition that mobilised pensioner service subsequent to 31st March, 1919, should cease to reckon as pensionable service was attached to the grant of the improved scale of pensions to long service pensioners who had served during the War as from the 1st April, 1919. It was duly announced in Admiralty Weekly Order 1809/19, the last sentence of which stated that effect would be given as from the date mentioned, i.e., 1st April, 1919, to the conditions stated in Clause 3, paragraph ( e ), of Monthly Order 4614/17, in the cases of all men whose pensions would be reassessed under the terms of Monthly Order 3968/18. Service rendered after 31st March, 1919, was not, therefore, pensionable time.
Scotland
Education Rates, Fife
asked the Secretary for Scotland if he has received a resolution from the parish council of Crail complaining of the sum demanded for educational purposes by the Fife education authority, which is this year £3,229, as compared with £560 last year; and if he has now arrived at any decision as to how relief is to be afforded to the ratepayers of this and similar communities?
The reply to the first part of the question is in the negative. With regard to the second part, I can only refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Clackmannan on the 21st July.
Kelp Industry, South Uist
asked the Secretary for Scotland whether he will take immediate steps, through the Board of Agriculture or otherwise, to inquire into the conditions under which the kelp industry is conducted in South Uist, with a view to the removal of the serious grievances of which the workers complain?
This matter has been engaging the attention of the Board of Agriculture, who have endeavoured to take such steps as are within their competence for the benefit of the industry. The Board have the circumstances fully in view, and I do not consider that further inquiry is necessary.
Education Fund
asked the Secretary for Scotland what is the amount of the Education (Scotland) Fund; and how much of it remains unexpended at present?
The amount paid into the Education (Scotland) Fund for the current financial year, that is, from the 1st April to 31st July, 1920, is £2,723,037, including a balance of £16,710 brought forward from last year's account. Sums amounting to £2,707,605 were paid out of the Fund during this period, leaving a balance of £15,432 at the 1st August, 1920.
Is it contemplated that the expenses of education should keep rolling up in this excessive manner right through the Recess? Ought not some steps to be taken to check the advance before it reaches the heights which apparently seem likely?
I do not agree with my hon. Friend that the amount spent upon education is excessive, and if he will do me the honour to-morrow of coming to the Debate on the Scottish Estimates he will be convinced.
Russia
British Policy
asked the Prime Minister whether it is the policy of His Majesty's Government to invite the German Government to cooperate in hostilities against Russia; whether the Hungarian Government has been invited or has offered to co-operate against Russia; and what reply has been received or made?
The answer to the first and second parts of the question is in the negative. The third part of the question does not therefore arise.
Will the right hon. Gentleman repudiate the article written by the Secretary of State for War last Thursday inviting Germany to join us?
Poland
Munitions
asked the Prime Minister whether British munitions are being sent from this country or elsewhere to Poland; and whether any of the munitions at Danzig which the dockers in that city recently refused to handle are of British origin?
The answer to the first part of the question is that no British munitions are being sent to Poland by His Majesty's Government. I have no information as to the origin of the munitions referred to in the last paragraph of the question.
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman tell me whether we are sending munitions to Poland at the present time?
If the hon. Member reads the answer which I have just given he will see that we are not sending any, but, of course, the hon. Member is familiar with the recent correspondence with the Soviet Government which may alter the situation.
It is because I am familiar with the correspondence that I ask for an assurance that we have not altered our policy and are sending munitions to Poland.
We are not sending any.
Why is there so much hostility from democratic people in this House towards Poland, a nation struggling to be free?
I cannot say.
Offensive Against Russia
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, before the Poles undertook their offensive against Russia, the Government of this country informed Poland that they could give no advice whatsoever, or whether they urged Poland not to attack?
As has already been made quite clear to the House by repeated statements, His Majesty's Government warned the Polish Government that the whole responsibility must rest with them.
Why are we sending them munitions now?
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is possible to lay on the Table the despatch to which the Prime Minister referred as embodying the advice, or the failure to give advice, to the Government of Poland?
It is quite possible. I will consider whether it would be advisable.
Was not the Prime Minister of Poland under the impression that he was acting on the offensive with the full approval of this Government, and did not the Government advise His Majesty to send a telegram of congratulation to Poland on the very day they expected to enter Kieff?
Quite the reverse. I read in Debate in this House part of the despatch sent to Poland, which showed quite clearly that this Government did not think it a wise action, or accepted any responsibility for it.
May I have an answer to my question: Why are we sending munitions to Poland?
The answer has already been given. The answer why we are sending munitions to Poland is an Irish answer: we are not sending them.
Is it a fact that British troops are co-operating in unloading munitions at Dantzig?
It may be so, I do not know.
Questions
Syria (Emir Feisal)
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his statement that we owe a great deal to His Highness Emir Feisal as an ally, he will state how he proposes to help him?
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the Government can make any statement in regard to the situation in Syria, the position of the Emir Feisal, and how these events are likely to influence the situation in Mesopotamia?
The whole position is still obscure, and I am not able to make any statement at present.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
asked the Prime Minister if he can now, or if he will prior to the Recess, make a statement in regard to the modifications in regard to the restrictions imposed for war purposes under the Liquor Control Department?
As I have already stated, it is impossible to make any statement on this subject before the Adjournment.
asked the Lord Privy Seal why the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic) Regulations oblige the consumer of wine or beer to pay for goods before delivery and does not permit payment on delivery; why he must send or take his order to the licensed premises and may not give his order to the representative of the vendor when he calls; and why the brewer or wine merchant may not deliver beer or wine by basket or cycle before 12 noon, but is obliged to use a motor vehicle or horse van?
The Regulations referred to in the first part of the question formed a part of the series of Regulations which were designed to check, and have in fact checked, the abuses to which the facilities which existed in 1915 and 1916 for obtaining liquor for off-consumption lend themselves. As regards the remainder of the question, I cannot add anything to previous replies which I have given on the subject.
Is it really necessary to continue these War restrictions?
That question has been put a great many times. I think the House would not desire that all the restrictions should be suddenly discontinued.
Ireland
Government of Ireland Bill
asked the Prime Minister whether he has considered the extent to which the hands of the Irish Executive would be strengthened by the immediate passing of the Government of Ireland Bill and the establishment in the Northern portion of Ireland of an Irish Parliament willing to co-operate with the Government in the maintenance of civil order; whether he has considered the fact that an immediate settlement in Ulster would open the door for negotiations which are not now possible with regard to the rest of Ireland; and whether he will take steps to expedite the passing of the Government of Ireland Bill?
I can add nothing to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday in reply to a question by my hon. Friend.
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether any steps have been taken to ascertain whether, in view of the exceptional conditions in Ireland, Members would be willing to stay later in order to expedite the Government's own policy?
My hon. Friend has not succeeded in formulating a question different from that he put yesterday, and I can only give the same answer.
Questions
Hungarian Stock (British Investors)
asked the Lord Privy Seal if he can make a statement in regard to the interests of British people who, prior to and during the War, held Hungarian stock?
When the Treaty with Hungary comes into force, this question will be dealt with in accordance with the Financial Clauses of the Treaty, which are similar to those of the Treaty with Austria (Cmd. Paper 400), Article 203.
Unemployment Insurance Bill
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce legislation, supplementary to the Unemployment Insurance Bill for the prevention of unemployment; and if so, when?
I have been asked to answer this question. The Government is doing everything that it can to prevent and minimise unemployment, but it is not at present intended to introduce legislation in the direction suggested by my hon. Friend.
League of Nations
Nauru Island Agreement
asked the Lord Privy Seal how the League of Nations can refuse to confirm the Nauru Island agreement if only the mandate, and not the agreement, is submitted to the League?
This subject has already been fully discussed in Debate, and I have nothing to add to what was then said.
Questions
Law of Property Bill
asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he can state when the Law of Property Bill will be introduced in this House?
When it has left another place.
Corporation Profits Tax
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent, if any, the Corporation Profits Tax will be applicable to political and social clubs and canteens run by workpeople?
The Corporation Profits Tax applies to companies so constituted that the liability of the members is limited, which carry on a trade or business or undertaking of a similar character. The constitution of clubs varies greatly in different cases, and without examination of the full facts of a particular case, it would be impossible to say with certainty, whether it fell within the scope of the tax. Generally speaking, however, it may be anticipated that the concerns to which my hon. and gallant Friend refers would not be liable to the Corporation Profits Tax.
Overseers (Travelling Expenses)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to differences of interpretation and practice in regard to the Representation of the People Act, 1918, and the payments of travelling expenses of assistant overseers; whether it is allowable that travelling expenses should be charged upon an approved scale in the case of an assistant overseer; whether he must reach any of the parts of the parishes for which he acts in the performance of his duty at his own expense; and whether in future reasonable travelling expenses will be allowed as between large parishes whether the assistant overseer resides in one of them or not?
Travelling expenses are allowed to assistant overseers only when the circumstances are exceptional, as, for example, where a parish or group of parishes is large with a small scattered population. This is the uniform practice, but of course each case must be considered on its merits. An overseer may live where he pleases, but if he lives at a distance from his parish or group of parishes nothing is allowed for travelling between his residence and the parish or parishes within which his duties lie.
Mintstry of Pensions (Staff)
asked the Minister of Pensions how many women are still employed in his Department; and how many women have had their duties terminated during this year?
The total number of women employed by the Ministry on the 1st July last was 14,202. Over 1,500 of the female clerical staff have had their duties terminated since the 1st of January last.
Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that there is a sufficiency of work for them to do?
There is an enormous amount of work to be got through, I can assure my hon. Friend.
Food Supplies
Sugar, Distribution
asked the Minister of Food whether his Department has knowledge of any cases in Ireland of irregular conduct on the part of retailers in regard to the distribution of sugar or the withholding of the sugar cards of the consumers; whether his Department have taken proceedings in any such case; and, if so, with what result?
My attention has been drawn to certain cases of irregular conduct on the part of sugar retailers in Ireland. Every case is carefully considered, and wherever practicable is dealt with, either by way of prosecution of the offender, or, in extreme cases, by the withdrawal of his licence.
asked the Minister of Food whether he will cause inquiry to be made into the system of sugar distribution in Ireland, and make provision for such facilities in regard to the distribution of sugar and transfer of sugar cards from retailer to retailer as may be shown to be necessary; whether his Department will make it a sufficient reason for sanctioning the transfer of a sugar card from one retailer to another that the retailer by whom the applicant desires to be supplied with sugar is a co-operative society of which he is a member; and whether it is the present practice in Great Britain to regard as reasonable grounds for transfer the desire of a person to transfer with a co-operative society of which he is a member?
I would refer the hon. Member to the reply on this subject given to the hon. Member for Morpeth on the 28th July. In the circumstances there described, the Department responsible for the administration of sugar rationing in Ireland feel that they cannot grant to co-operative societies privileges denied to ordinary traders.
Condemned Food, Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
asked the Minister of Food to state the amount of unsound food condemned as being unfit for human consumption sent into the city of Newcastle-upon-Tyne during the last year and for the two months of June and July this year, respectively; by how much is this amount above or below the average for the rest of the country; and what is the total value of condemned and destroyed unsound food in the United Kingdom during the last year?
I have been asked to reply to this question. I am making inquiries as to the position in regard to Newcastle, and will communicate with the hon. Member.
asked the Minister of Food whether he has read the Report of the Corporation Veterinary Inspector of Newcastle-upon-Tyne for the four weeks ending 10th July, 1920, relative to the quantities of meat received in that city which have been found to be unfit for human food; and, if so, if he can give any explanation of the state of affairs there disclosed?
I have read the Report of the Corporation Veterinary Inspector of Newcastle-on-Tyne for the four weeks ending the 10th July. I find that during that period a certain quantity of homegrown beef was found to be tuberculous and accordingly condemned. A large quantity of imported meat was also condemned, consisting partly of offals, which had been brought in on transhipment from the Continent on private account, and partly of carcases, also sent on private account, which appear to have been unsound for some time. Certain cases of rabbits were also condemned, which formed part of surplus Army stock, for which it had been found impossible to effect a sale. I am satisfied that the utmost vigilance is being exercised by the sanitary authorities at Newcastle-on-Tyne, and the hon. Member may rest assured that the Ministry of Food are doing everything in their power to assist them.
How soon may we expect this matter to be remedied by the Tuberculosis Order that is to be issued?
That question ought, perhaps, to be addressed to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Agriculture.
Has any one been prosecuted in reference to this?
I will make inquiries. I received the Report of the inspector only this morning and I have given the House such information as I had.
Prospective Supplies
asked the Minister of Food whether the supply of foodstuffs for the next 12 months will be likely to equal 1919–20 stocks or whether he anticipates shortage in any of the principal foodstuffs and, if so, which?
I would refer the Eon. Member to the reply on this subject given to the hon. and gallant Member for Leyton, East, on the 27th July.
Questions
Royal Parks (Sandpits)
asked the First Commissioner of Works the number of children's sandpits that exist in the Royal Parks in the London area; and whether in view of the great demand for this form of amusement, he can see his way to increase the existing number in all the parks under the control of his Department?
There are at present three properly constructed sandpits in the Royal Parks—one each in Regent's Park, St. James's Park, and Kensington Gardens. In view of the considerable expenditure involved, I do not feel justified in increasing this-number at the present time.
Housing
Unoccupied Houses
asked the Minister of Health whether his attention had been called to the numerous, cases of landlords refusing to re-let houses which have become vacant, preferring to sell at an exorbitant price or let them remain empty, thereby causing hardship to ex-service men who are not in a position to buy, but who would willingly hire; and if he can state what special steps the Government propose to take in the matter of ex-service men?
As I have previously stated, I hope shortly to submit to the House proposals in regard to the letting of empty property.
Having regard to the fact that these artificially empty houses are, in many cases, quite fit for heroes to live in, can no steps be taken by my right hon. Friend to the advantage of the ex-service men who are without houses?
I will do everything I have power. The authorities have power to acquire houses for purchase compulsorily. Beyond that neither they nor I have any powers. We propose to ask Parliament to give us those powers.
Will the right hon. Gentleman state what steps he is taking to use the powers at present existing?
How can I state that in answer to a supplementary question? I have urged thousands of authorities all over the country to acquire these properties wherever they can.
In view of the urgency of the matter, may I ask whether the proposal referred to, for dealing with the situation, will be submitted to the House before the Recess?
I hope the Bill will be printed and circulated in a few days' time.
In view of the urgency, has the right hon. Gentleman impressed on the Cabinet the necessity for giving time for the Measure, and ought not valuable time to be devoted to such a Measure instead of to the passing of the Bill to close shops?
The hon. Gentleman must address that question to the Leader of the House.
Is there any power to prevent landlords keeping houses empty, and will the right hon. Gentleman introduce legislation for that purpose?
That is what the Bill now in draft is designed to do. I hope it will be circulated in a few days' time.
Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the possibility of rating unused houses and making owners pay the rates, whether the houses are occupied or not?
I am afraid anything of that kind would be very slow in its effect and not nearly as rapid as what we propose to do.
Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to press the Bill through the House this part of the Session? We would give him every help.
Building Cost
asked the Minister of Health to state the sum absorbed by wages in the erection of a house costing £250 in 1913; and what a similar house would cost to-day and the amount of the wages bill in the cost of its erection?
A house which in 1913 cost £250 to build would now cost probably from £800 to £1,000 or even more according to local circumstances, including the variation in the rate of wages and in the output of the workmen employed. The proportion of the cost which is represented by the wages incurred in the erection of the house in the former case was estimated to be from £100 to £125, and in the latter case the cost varies from £350 to £500 or even more.
Questions
Poor Law Institutions
asked the Minister of Health what effect the conferring of Old Age pensions by the State has had upon workhouse accommodation; whether there are any and, if so, how many workhouses in the United Kingdom which are not being utilised to the fullest extent; and, if so, whether it is possible to convert these so that they may perform some useful function?
There is at present a margin of accommodation in Poor Law institutions due to some extent to the grant of Old Age pensions. A large amount of the vacant accommodation was used for other purposes during the War, and, wherever possible, I am encouraging arrangements for setting free such institutions for other uses.
Munitions
Blargies Dump, Ablancourt
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions whether the goods in the dump at Blargies, Ablancourt, France, have been handed over to his Department for disposal; if so, on what date, and who was responsible for the refusal of the offer to purchase this material some twelve months ago; why no. attempt has been made to dispose of, protect from the weather, or otherwise deal with this material before it became in its present deplorable condition; and if his Department is not responsible, what Department is?
The bulk of the material at the engineers' stores depot at Blargies, Abancourt, was declared surplus to military requirements during the autumn of last year. Approximately 50 per cent. of the contents of the depot have already been sold. Several inquiries have been received regarding the purchase of this depot, but no offer approximating to its value has been made. I am unable to identify the offer referred to by my hon. Friend, but if he will furnish me with additional particulars I will make further inquiries into the matter. I cannot admit that there has been any such deterioration as is suggested in the last part of the question.
Government Surplus Stores (Disposal)
asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Munitions if he can state what proportion of the £504,000,000, the amount of Government war stores disposed of by his Department, has been actually realised and what proportion represents deferred payments under contracts which provide only for relatively small initial payments by the purchasers?
Approximately £427,500,000 have been actually realised. Of the balance £4,500,000 represents transactions for which money will not pass and £72,500,000 represents debtors and forward contracts, including British and foreign Government Departments.
Questions
Secret Service
asked the Home Secretary whether he can give any indication of the circumstances which have led to the issue of a Supplementary Estimate for the Secret Service less than four months after the beginning of the financial year for an amount equal to the original estimate for the whole year?
I have nothing to add to the statement which I made yesterday in this House on the Supplementary Estimate for the Secret Service.
Was not this to defray the cost of Sir Basil Thomson's work against Bolshevism?
Coupon-Reponse International
asked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that a Coupon-Réponse International can be purchased in France for 30 centimes and exchanged at any post office in this country for postage stamps to the value of 2½d.; and whether the Post Office is repaid by the French Government for these coupons at the current rate of exchange, which would amount approximately to 1½d. per coupon?
The French Post Office ceased to issue Reply Coupons on 30th April last. All coupons issued before that date and exchanged in this country for postage stamps to the value of 2½d. are accounted for at the rate of 28 centimes gold, which exceeds 2½d.
Blind Persons Bill
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has formed any estimate of the cost which will fall upon the National Exchequer and upon local authorities as a result of the duties which will be imposed upon them under the Blind Persons Bill?
My estimate of the cost which will be thrown upon the National Exchequer by the Blind Persons Bill is, in respect of England and Wales, £170,000 per annum for pensions. It is proposed that the annual charges in respect of capital expenditure and the maintenance expenses incurred by local authorities under the provisions of the Bill should be borne equally by the Exchequer and local rates. The annual expenditure is estimated to amount to £50,000. The existing maintenance grants to voluntary agencies are estimated to amount to £109,000 per annum, but I am considering whether they should continue 6o be made in the present form or should be paid through local authorities.
Floating Debt (Reduction)
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state what is the amount of surplus revenue which he now estimates will be available this year for the reduction of floating debt, in view of the fact that the Supplementary Estimates already issued equal the whole Budget provision for supplementaries?
I anticipate that the surplus will be less than my original estimates, but it is too early to make a complete forecast for the remainder of the year or to estimate with certainty the precise effect of Budget concessions on the revenue and the precise amount of additional expenditure.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he expects to have any surplus for the reduction of debt at the end of the year?
Yes, Sir.
Ex-Ministers' Pensions
asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will state the nature of the services rendered to the State by Lord Balfour of Burleigh and Lord George Hamilton since the grant of their pensions; what was the length of their service which entitled them to this pension; and the number of years they have received this State aid?
Lord George Hamilton received pension from 1892 to 1895, and from 1903 onwards, after a public career of nearly 25 years at the Admiralty, Board of Education, and India Office, since when he has been unpaid Chairman of the Royal Commissions on the Poor law and Mesopotamia. Lord Balfour of Burleigh received his pension in 1903, after a public career of many years, including service at the Board of Trade, and for eight years as Secretary for Scotland, since when he has been unpaid Chairman of the Royal Commissions on Food Supplies in time of war and on Trade Relations between Canada and "West Indies, and more recently of the Committee on Commercial and Industrial Policy after the War and the Rubber and Tin Exports Committee. I am not prepared to say that this is an exhaustive account of the services of either of the Noble Lords, but the hon. Member will perhaps consider it a sufficient answer to his question.
May I ask how those periods of service compare with four years in the trenches in France?
Naval Prize Cheques
asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been drawn to the difficulty which recipients of naval prize money experience in cashing naval prize cheques owing to so very few recipients having accounts at a bank; and whether he will have inquiries made into the practicability of payment of the payment of prize money in some more easily negotiable form, namely, by means of postal orders and money orders?
I would refer my hon. and gallant Friend to the reply I gave on the 21st July to questions on this subject by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Portsmouth North and the hon. Member for Portsmouth Central.
Profiteering Acts (Fruit Prices)
asked the President of the Board of Trade whether his Department has any knowledge that jam combines are operating in this country?
A Sub-Committee appointed by the Central Committee under the Profiteering Acts has recently investigated the prices of fruit in the United Kingdom with special reference to the effect of such prices on the cost of food. The Report of the Sub-Committee has only just been received by the Board of Trade, and until my right hon. Friend has had an opportunity of considering the Report, I am not in a position to make any statement.
Shops (Early Closing—No. 2) Bill
I wish to submit to you, Mr. Speaker, a point of Order concerning what happened last Friday, and in order to make myself clear, may I say this, that early in this year this House enacted that the Defence of the Realm Act should come to an end on the 31st August, or as soon as peace was declared, whichever was the sooner. Last Friday afternoon we discussed the Shops (Early Closing) (No. 2) Bill, and passed it on Second Reading, and the hon. Gentleman who introduced it, said:
"The need for the introduction of this Bill has arisen from the fact that the application of the principle of early closing embodied in the first temporary war measure and in Orders in Council passed under the Defence of the Realm Regulations Act, 1915, has proved' so efficacious and so widely required that the Government do not feel justified in allowing it to lapse, as it would, when the Defence of the Realm Regulations cease to become operative on the termination of the War."
He went on to say that the Bill embodied these Regulations in regard to shops, and he added:
"It does not modify or vary in any manner the Orders which are at present in force, but it continues them until the end of December next year." [OFFICIAL REPORT, 30th July, 1920, Col. 1865, Vol. 132.]
My point is this, that this House, having come to the decision early in the year to enact these Regulations only until 31st August, or peace time, whichever came the sooner, this House is not competent to act on that decision, and by a Bill of this kind to extend the Regulations with regard to shops for another eighteen months; that it is a rule of this House that the House having come to a decision, cannot reverse, alter or over-ride that decision within the same Session.
I do not think that can be strictly applied in a case of this sort, for, even assuming the House had in its mind that these Regulations in the first instance should continue only until 31st December, it was quite open to the House to reconsider the matter, and to extend that period. It might have done it by an amending Bill in the same Session. There is nothing to prevent that.
May I ask whether it is, in that case, competent for this House actually to reverse in the same Session, a decision arrived at in the early part of the Session?
The House must not be asked to consider the proposition in exactly the same terms; that is to say, I ought not, if I observed it, to put identically the same Question twice. The House having come to a decision, I ought not to put identically the same Question again to the House, so that the House could have an opportunity of reversing its decision. In this case, there is no question which I have put from the Chair which could be regarded as indentically the same as that upon which the House has already pronounced.
On the point of Order. May I respectfully suggest it is not only the Question put from the Chair, but it is the character of the legislation passed in the form of a Bill, and if we do pass a Bill to say these Regulations shall cease on 31st August, is it competent for us subsequently to say they shall cease on some other date than the date to which the House has already agreed?
Yes, the regulations relating to shops, certainly. I put it this way. Supposing, in the first instance, the matter had been limited to shops, and the House had been asked to say that the Regulations relating to shops should cease on 31st December, it could not be again invited to reconsider its decision and say that Regulations regarding the shops should be continued for a year or eighteen months beyond 31st December; but, on the assumption that in the first place the Regulations apply to shops, and to a variety of other things, it would be quite competent for the House to say, "We leave the other matters as they stand, but with regard to shops, we will extend the period." That is not, I think, inadmissible.
Business of the House
I desire to submit a point of Order in reference to the Orders which appear on the Paper today. I observe on the Paper that the Secretary to the Treasury has a Motion for the Chair to put all outstanding Votes, that is to say, that today is the last day of the Committee of Supply. I desire to submit to you, Sir, that Supply Committee cannot be closed to-day for the following reasons: Standing Order 15, Sub-section (10), says:
"Any additional estimate for any new matter … shall be submitted for consideration in the Committee of Supply on some day not later than two days before the Committee is closed."
There is such an Estimate for a new matter, namely, the Supplementary Estimate for the advances for German coal deliveries, and I submit to you that it was not submitted for consideration in the Committee of Supply two days before the Committee is closed. The blue paper which was circulated with the Votes on the 3rd August, describes the Supplementary Estimates: "When delivered, 31st July," that is to say, on Saturday. If it should be said that they were available on Friday by inquiry of hon. Members, I would submit that Friday is not a day within the meaning of Standing Order 15, because Subsection (11) of the Standing Order says:
"For the purposes of this Order, two Fridays shall be deemed equivalent to a single sitting on any other day."
I therefore submit that, inasmuch as this Estimate for a new service was not submitted two days before to-day, it is impossible for the Committee of Supply to close on this day.
Before you reply, may I put a point to you, Sir?
I think I will deal with the point that has been put while it is fresh in my mind, and then, if I do not cover his point, the right hon. Gentleman can put a further question. It seems to me that, under the Rules, Supply must be closed to-day. The Rule says:
"Not more than twenty days, being days before the 5th August, shall be allotted for the consideration of the annual Estimates for the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Civil Services, including Votes on Account."
It also says that on the nineteenth day certain things are to happen. This is the nineteenth day, and these things that are to happen must happen, in order to comply with the Standing Orders. Then the hon. and gallant Member says it cannot happen, because the "Advances for German Coal Deliveries" is a new service and was not, in accordance with the Rule, submitted for consideration in proper time. If the hon. and gallant Member will look at the Orders of the Day, which I hold in my hand, for last Friday, he will find "Supply," and then if he will look to see whether in Committee of Supply this particular Vote was made effective or not, he will find: "Unclassified Services, War Bonus and Advances for German Coal Deliveries [New Service]." Therefore, it stood for consideration on Friday, and it could have been taken on Friday. It stood again on Monday, and it was taken on Monday. It was, therefore, submitted for consideration two days before the final day.
On that main point of the submission for consideration on Friday, on that day, although perhaps technically it could have come before the House and might have been submitted from the Chair, it was really quite impossible for that to happen, and the suspension of the 5 o'clock rule only operated in so far as the specific subjects mentioned in the Motion which was submitted by you and accepted by the House were concerned. Therefore after 5 o'clock it was quite impossible for this question to have been considered. On the assumption that you rule against us on that, might I with much respect submit a general consideration to you in the interpretation of these Standing Orders on questions of finance? When these rules were passed and 20 days were allotted for Supply, the number of Departments was limited. Now we have at least three additional Ministries; indeed, I think there must be more, but the three that leap to my mind at the moment are the Ministry of Transport, the Ministry of Food, and the Ministry of Air, and I think there are others. Now 20 days are quite inadequate to cover all the new arrangements, and while that rule stands, what I am submitting to you for your favourable consideration is that while it is very difficult indeed for you, as I thoroughly understand, to go outside the letter of the rule, as far as it is at all possible the most favourable consideration should be given to these points which are raised where finance is concerned. I daresay that point might have been more appropriately submitted by me to the Leader of the House. I will not resubmit it to him, but if he will bear in mind what I have put to you, Sir—the matter to some extent lies in his hands—I think a very considerable service will have been rendered to the adequate discussion in this House of financial matters.
4.0 P.M.
I certainly agree that it is very desirable to have proper notice and adequate discussion, but it is not for me to lay down any rule about it. It is only my duty to interpret the Standing Orders. This Standing Order allotting 20 days for Supply was passed at a time, no doubt, when the amount of money to be Voted was not so great and when the number of Departments was not so great, and the arguments which the right hon. Gentleman has used point to the desirability of extending the number of days for Supply, but that does not rest with me. The hon. and gallant Member for Leith (Captain W. Benn) suggests that I should not hold Friday to be a day, because it takes two Fridays to make a sitting, but I think that would be stretching the rule a little far. I cannot say that Friday is not a day for this purpose.
Motion made, and Question put,
"That this day, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for New Services and the Navy Excess Vote, 1918–19, and Civil Service Excess Vote, 1918–19, may be considered in Committee of Supply; and that Business, other than the Business of Supply, may be taken before Eleven o'clock."—[ Mr. Bonar Law. ]
The House divided: Ayes, 176; Noes, 38.
Division No. 278.] AYES. [3.55 p.m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Grant, James A. Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Ainsworth, Captain Charles Greenwood, William (Stockport) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Gregory, Holman Pennefather, De Fonblanque Atkey, A. R. Greig, Colonel James William Percy, Charles Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Prescott, Major W. H. Banbury, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G. Hanna, George Boyle Purchase, H. G. Barlow, Sir Montague Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Raeburn, Sir William H. Barnston, Major Harry Harris, Sir Henry Percy Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Barrie, Charles Coupar Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Rees, Capt. J. Tudor-(Barnstaple) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Remnant, Sir James Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Herbert, Denis (Hertford, Watford) Rendall, Athelstan Bennett, Thomas Jewell Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Crckm'nn, W.) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Borwick, Major G. O. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Rodger, A. K. Breese, Major Charles E. Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Buchanan, Lieut.-Colonel A. L. H. Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Norwood) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Seddon, J. A. Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Jameson, J. Gordon Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Butcher, Sir John George Jephcott, A. R. Smithers, Sir Alfred W. Campbell, J. D. G. Jesson, C. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Casey, T. W. Jodrell, Neville Paul Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord R. (Hitchin) Johnstone, Joseph Stanton, Charles B. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Stewart, Gershom Cohen, Major J. Brunel Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Sturrock, J. Leng Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) King, Captain Henry Douglas Sugden, W. H. Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Sutherland, Sir William Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Lloyd, George Butler Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Curzon, Commander Viscount Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Tickler, Thomas George Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Tryon, Major George Clement Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Lorden, John William Turton, E. R. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Wallace, J. Dawes, James Arthur Macdonald, Rt. Hon. John Murray Ward-Jackson, Major C. L. Doyle, N. Grattan Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Edge, Captain William Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Macquisten, F. A. Waring, Major Walter Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Mallalieu, F. W. Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Fell, Sir Arthur Molson, Major John Elsdale Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Foreman, Henry Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Morris, Richard Woolcock, William James U. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Nall, Major Joseph Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Gilbert, James Daniel Neal, Arthur Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Glyn, Major Ralph Nicholl, Commander Sir Edward Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Parker. Goff, Sir R. Park Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
NOES. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Sitch, Charles H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kenyon, Barnet Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kiley, James D. Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Lunn, William Tillett, Benjamin Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Waterson, A. E. Galbraith, Samuel Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.) Wedgwood, Colonel J. C. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Grundy, T. W. Myers, Thomas Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) O'Grady, Captain James Wintringham, T. Hallas, Eldred Raffan, Peter Wilson Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Hirst, G. H. Robertson, John Hogge, James Myles Rose, Frank H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Holmes, J. Stanley Royce, William Stapleton Mr. George Thorne and Mr. Hogge. Irving, Dan Sexton, James
Selection (Standing Committees)
Standing Committee D
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Committee of Selection; That they had added the following Member to Standing Committee D: Sir John Baird.
Standing Committee C
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee C (added in respect of the Importation of Plumage (Prohibition) Bill): Mr. Aneurin Williams; and had appointed in substitution: Mr. Newbould.
Standing Committee E
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS further reported from the Committee; That they had discharged the following Member from Standing Committee E: Sir Arthur Griffith-Boscawen.
Reports to lie upon the Table.
Private Bills (Group J)
Sir PARK GOFF reported from the Committee on Group J. of Private Bills, That, as no further business was ready for the consideration of the Committee, the Committee had adjourned till a day to be fixed later.
Report to lie upon the Table.
Standing Committees (Chairmen's Panel)
Sir SAMUEL ROBERTS reported from the Chairmen's Panel; That they had appointed Mr. Turton to act as Chairman of Standing Committee E (in respect of the Shops (Early Closing) (No. 2) Bill).
Report to lie upon the Table.
Message from the Lords
That they have agreed to,—
Public Libraries (Ireland) Bill,
Sheriffs (Ireland) Bill,
Nauru Island Agreement Bill,
Finance Bill, without Amendment.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act for taking the Census for Ireland in the year nineteen hundred and twenty-one." [Census (Ireland) Bill [ Lords. ]
CENSUS (IRELAND) BILL [Lords]
Read the First time; to be read a Second time to-morrow, and to be printed. [Bill 197.]
Llanelly Corporation Water Bill
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
Orders of the Day
Supply [19th Allotted Day]
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
The Committee will notice that the first few Votes I put come in this order, so that they may appear first on the Report stage tomorrow. This is according to the arrangement arrived at in relation to the Scottish Votes. Then I will come to the Vote for the Ministry of Munitions, which we are to debate to-day.
Civil Services and Revenue Departments and Supplementary Estimates, 1920–21
(Class 2.)
Board of Agriculture, Scotland
Resolved,
"That a sum, not exceeding £230,499, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Agriculture for Scotland, including Grants for Agricultural Education and Training, certain Grants in Aid, and certain Special Services arising out of the War."—[ Note. —£200,000 has been voted on account.]
(Class 4.)
Public Education, Scotland
Resolved,
"That a sum, not exceeding £3,377,220, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Public Education in Scotland, and for Science and Art in Scotland, including a Grant in Aid."—[ Note. —£3,500,000 has been voted on account.]
(Class 3.)
Register House, Edinburgh
Resolved,
"That a sum, not exceeding £40,651, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending en the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices in His Majesty's General Register House, Edinburgh."—[ Note. —£29,000 has been voted on account.]
(Class 7.)
Scottish Board of Health
Resolved,
"That a sum, not exceeding £2,449,289, including a Supplementary Sum of £10, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for £he Salaries and Expenses of the Scottish Board of Health, including Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, Grants to Local Authorities, etc., sundry Contributions and Grants in respect of Benefits and Expenses of Administration under the National Insurance (Health) Acts, 1911 to 1919, certain Grants in Aid, and certain Special Services arising out of the War."—[ Note. —£1,500,000 has been voted on account.]
(Class 2.)
Fishery Board for Scotland
Resolved,
"That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,798,875, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Fishery Board for Scotland, including Grants in Aid of Piers or Quays, and Expenditure in connection with the Purchase of Pickled Herrings."
Fishery Board for Scotland
Resolved,
"That a sum, not exceeding £29,529, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Fishery Board for Scotland, and for Grants in Aid of Piers or Quays."—[ Note. —£20,000 has been voted on account.]
Secretary for Scotland's Office
Resolved,
"That a sum, not exceeding £36,583, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of His Majesty's Secretary for Scotland and Subordinate Offices, Expenses under the Inebriates Acts, 1879 to 1900, and Expenses under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, and Expenses under the National Registration Acts, 1915 and 1918, and a subsidy for Steamer Services to the Hebrides."—[ Note. —£25,000 has been voted on account.]
Ministry of Munitions
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £7,003,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Munitions."
The House will remember that on 15th April I presented an Estimate for the year of the Ministry of Munitions. In consequence of certain decisions which had been taken shortly before, that Estimate was, at that time, out of date, and there had not been time to prepare a fresh one. Now I present fresh Estimates which embody the actual position following on the carrying out of these decisions of the Cabinet to which I have just referred. On the main question I do not wish to repeat more than is absolutely necessary of what I said on 15th April. There is one thing I must say, and that is that the main figure is extraordinarily misleading unless some word of explanation is given. On the face of it the Estimate shows that the Committee is asked to vote a net increase of some £19,000,000. There is no increase of £19,000,000. There is no increase at all on last year. If the £19,000,000 be regarded as the cost of the Ministry of Munitions there is no £19,000,000 at all. If I could put this Estimate in my own way, which would be a true and accurate presentation of the case, I should put it thus: Estimate for the year as follows:—Estimated receipts, £200,000,000, less three items, the first the liquidation of war debts, £12,000,000 (of course I am giving round figures); expenses of disposal, £6,250,000; and miscellaneous, £750,000—a total deduction of £19,000,000. Therefore the estimated net receipts to the Exchequer would be £181,000,000. But the ghost of Mr. Gladstone forbids.
The Estimates have to be presented in a certain way—for which there are, no doubt, good and valid reasons—but as carried out at present they undoubtedly lead to very great misapprehension. I will not further dwell on that point, but if there are critics of this Ministry their criticism should be not "you cost too much"—because we cost nothing, but "you ought to have made more." I will now say a word to explain the difference between this Estimate and the last. The sum of £27,000,000 odd is now reduced by £8,320,000. Some explanation is given in the Note at the beginning of the Estimates, but I think I can put it rather more fully in this way:—Liabilities transferred to War Office, £2,300,000; liabilities transferred to the Exchequer, £500,000; receipts from War Office received in the present year instead of last year, £3,000,000; reduction through sales of Slough and Aircraft Salvage Depots, £1,300,000; over-estimated for factories, £400,000; reduction of expenses at Richborough and other establishments, £500,000; savings on advances to contractors, £300,000—a total of £8,300,000. Let me analyse the main expenditure for a moment, the £12,000,000 is for the liquidation and winding up of war contracts; the £6,250,000 for the expenses of disposal. They work out thus—Headquarters staff——
Would the hon. Gentleman indicate the heads and the sub-heads with which he is dealing, and so enable us to follow what he says? The Committee want to follow him.
It is explained in. the Note. All these expenses, in the form in which these Estimates have to be presented, do not really indicate the real position in. which the expenses really stand. I was trying to give the actual thing, and to describe them better than in the Estimates. I would ask, however, to be allowed to continue my statement and analysis according to the way the money naturally goes under the main head of "Expenditure." I did so last time, and no objection was taken to that course.
I shall not be able to follow you; that is all!
I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to take a note of the figures. The analysis of the main heads of expenditure show £12,000,000 for the liquidation of contracts. Of the £6,250,000 expenses of disposal, Headquarters staff comes to £640,000; stores, depots, road transport, £3,200,000; advertising, re-conditioning, and labour abroad, £1,400,000; works service, £400,000; railway rates and freight, £450,000; acquisition of land for resale, £250,000. It will thus be seen that the disposal staff figure of £640,000 works out at one-third of 1 per cent. of the receipts of the Ministry for the year. The total expenses of disposals are a little over 3 per cent. of the receipts.
On this point, the cost of receipts, as compared with the - volume of receipts themselves, I have been at some pains to obtain particulars from a leading accountant as to what such expenses amount to in the case of large firms. In one case, that of a purely distributing firm, the statement I have received is this:
May I ask the hon. Gentleman, in reference to these figures which he has just given us, whether he adds on to the cost of the sale of the State goods the addition which would naturally be paid by private businesses in regard to transport, for instance, moving in motor lorries, trains, and so on?
Yes, that is calculated. I want to say a word about the balance of receipts. What I said in April was that we expected £190,000,000 as the net receipts, which would go to the Exchequer at the end of the year. According to the statement I have just read, that will be reduced to £181,000,000 net, but I still think, from all the information at my disposal, that we may expect £190,000,000. It is quite true that the market for some commodities has gone down, in particular wool, but, on the other hand, a number of receipts which were expected to come in last year have been thrown forward into this, and the market for many descriptions of goods—machinery, for instance—is still very good. Moreover, the Army continues to throw out a large quantity of goods for disposal. At present the rate at which they are throwing out is some £2,000,000 a week, but, of course, these calculations are necessarily uncertain. They depend largely, and perhaps mainly, on Army policy. If the requirements of the Army decrease, the volume of goods for disposal on our part necessarily increases. If, on the other hand, it becomes necessary to provide for military requirements to a greater extent in other parts of the world, obviously there is not so much thrown up, and therefore there is less for us to deal with. I have consulted carefully the officials of the Ministry who are most likely to know, and, so far as we can see, I think we may at any rate look forward to £190,000,000, although for the sake of caution we have taken a somewhat lesser sum in the Estimate.
I wish now to come to the Report of the Committee on National Expenditure. It is a serious document, and it does not become less serious through the fact that the Committee was presided over by a Member of this House whose courage, industry, persistency, and contempt for popularity attract our admiration. But the Report of this Committee is not a judicial finding. The conditions under which the Committee conducted their investigations were not judicial. There were no counsel. The witnesses were not on oath; there were no charges or pleadings; there was no trained judge to restrict the testimony within the rules of evidence. The parties did not have facilities for calling their own witnesses. In many cases they did not know what other witnesses had said, and at this moment the evidence is not available either for the Ministry or for the House. Also, I think that all Members of the Committee did not hear all the evidence. I do not know how that may be, but, if it be so, of course, it entirely differs from a judicial proceeding where the judge and jury hear all the evidence, and not only some parts. I should imagine that all the members of the Committee could not attend every sitting. There is always the objection, also, to Select Committees, that the members of such committees combine the functions of counsel, judge, and jury. Therefore, although it is a serious document, it is not immune from comment and criticism.
Before I go to the main matter of the Report, I wish to deal with two issues in which a personal element arises. There are two statements in the Report that the Ministry say are untrue. Truth may be objective or subjective and when a statement is said to be untrue it may either mean it is wilfully false, or that it is not in accordance with the facts. If my right hon. Friend thinks I wish to attach to him, or the Ministry wish to attach to him, the former imputation in regard to the word "untrue," I am heartily sorry for it. I have known my right hon. Friend for some years, and I have never known him to come within a mile of a lie. I believe there is no man in this House, who has a higher sense of honour or veracity, but it does not follow that because he is a Paladin of truth he is a mirror of accuracy, and I am prepared to say, taking my second interpretation of "untrue," that these statements are not in accordance with the facts. One of the statements was that a certain Captain Pulleine was a member of the Disposal Board. All the members of the Disposal Board are set forth in the White Paper, and Captain Pulleine's name is not among them. He was an officer, but he is not a member. It would be just as true to say that Mr. Webster was a Member of this House, or that Black Rod was a Lord of Parliament. When you come to consider the responsibility of the position of this officer, there is all the difference in the world between him and a Member of the Board.
The second point is a little more complicated, but it can be resolved into a very narrow compass. The Committee say, in paragraph 37, that Sir Philip Dawson, who was a responsible member of the Disposal Board concerned in the particular transaction, instructed Colonel Spurrier, the Controller under the Board, to obtain an offer of £500,000 from Leylands. Sir Philip Dawson says that what he said to Colonel Spurrier was not that he was to obtain an offer of £500,000, or that he must offer the property for that sum to Leylands, but that he instructed Colonel Spurrier to see what offers Leylands would make, which, of course, makes all the difference in that he did not, in that case, commit himself to a figure. Sir Philip Dawson says that he instructed Colonel Spurrier to see what offers Tie could obtain, and Colonel Spurrier, in a communication which I sent to the right hon. Gentleman, confirms that, and so do Messrs. Leylands. Personally, I do not think that this is a very vital point. As a matter of fact, £500,000 was offered by them and was accepted, and on Sir Philip Dawson's responsibility he let the property go for that sum. I do not know what Colonel Spurrier said himself at the inquiry, because the evidence is not available, but he says now that what he meant was that he was instructed to see what offer he could get from Messrs. Leylands. What Colonel Spurrier may have said at the inquiry I cannot say, but he now says that what Sir Philip Dawson says was perfectly accurate. Very often a good man is not always a good witness. Anyhow, he says Sir Philip Dawson was right, and Messrs. Leylands say Sir Philip Dawson was right. I want to repeat again that I absolutely acquit my right hon. Friend of not having made his statement perfectly bonâ fide , but I do ask him, equally, in view of the fact that all three parties say the same, to accept this statement of Sir Philip Dawson on what, after all, is a very narrow issue, and to admit that Sir Philip Dawson's statement is right.
Both their statements are inaccurate.
I come now to the main conclusions of the Committee. The first is that we should cease to be a purchasing and manufacturing Department. Manufacturing is not absolutely specified, but I think it follows from the first. The Cabinet came to the decision on 23rd March that there should be no Ministry of Supply, and that the manufacturing functions and the purchasing functions of the Ministry of Munitions should be handed over to other Departments. Lord Inverforth, in a letter of 31st March, said he would be only too glad to see that carried out at once. But naturally the War Office did not wish to take over this work without some little preparation, and therefore some delay ensued. On the 27th April the Committee examined Sir Graham Greene, and found that at that time the transfer had not taken place. I cannot help being surprised that the Committee did not inquire further. They might have sent, after a week or two, for Sir Graham Greene again, and asked him how he was getting on, or possibly one Member might have asked me a question in this House. Anyhow, they do not seem to have pursued the point, and it resulted in this curious conclusion. On 5th July they reported that the Ministry of Munitions should hand over its functions without any delay to the other Departments, whereas that had already taken place five weeks before in the main case of the War Office, and some days before in the, very subordinate case of the Ministry of Health. I am a little pained that so punctual a man as my right hon. Friend should on this occasion have been five weeks late.
I come now to the St. Omer transaction, considering the case apart from the personal element. It has been suggested before now that certain things done by Colonel Spurrier, the Controller, were improper. As, however, there is not a word of censure of Colonel Spurrier in the Report I do not think I need pursue this matter. Again the question was raised that Messrs. Leylands were shown undue preference as compared with Messrs. Levers. This is not borne out by the report It was admitted in paragraph 37 that both these firms bought on the same information. It is not denied that Messrs. Levers, if they had accepted, would have had the same deliveries. That is not suggested anywhere in the report. There are other material points which must be borne in mind. Messrs. Levers did not act in the dark. Their representative, Mr. Horniman, visited the dump almost immediately before these transactions took place, and he was in a position to inform them of the material that was in the docks. Moreover Lord Leverhulme, who was away at the time, and who is not a man to take things lying down, on his return, expressed no complaint as to the action of the Ministry towards him and in favour of Messrs. Leylands. It is, however, suggested that certain shipping facilities were improperly given to Messrs. Leylands. This was twelve months afterwards. I suggest that this is an entirely new matter, which must be judged on its own merits. It was a new transaction under new circumstances and for new money.
Supposing my right hon. Friend had timber for sale and two merchants came to him and one bid 1s. 10d. per foot and the other 2s. per foot, but before any transaction was completed they both said, "Cannot you help us with haulage, and may we quote on the understanding that you will give haulage facilities?" The owner says: "No, my price is for timber standing." Afterwards the purchaser comes again to the owner and says, "I still cannot get horses and can you not help me. Your horses are doing nothing, and can you not make a fresh contract?" A fresh contract is made and the timber is taken away. What possible grievance can the unsuccessful bidder have? So in this case, it was an entirely new arrangement for fresh money, and, therefore, the unsuccessful man can have no possible grievance. It has been said that the price was unduly low and below the cost. General Long said that the cost was £75, but he has denied it since.
He said it in his evidence.
I have not seen his evidence. The Ministry of Shipping were asked to quote a price and they said it would cost £30. Of course, the Ministry of Shipping had had no experience of the working of barges, and their experience was based on ships. Lord Inyerforth particularly wanted to find cargo for the barges coming back. Very often no Government stocks were available, and the barges went with coal from Richborough and came back empty. On the usual system of costings Lord Inverforth found that the cost worked out at £9 4s. 2d. Finding that was the cost, he arranged with Messrs. Leylands for £15. My noble Friend was born, and has waxed strong, in a country where business is business, and where a stranger, whether he comes from Athens, Jerusalem or Chicago, may hardly flourish. I should not, however, have thought the better of my noble Friend if he had sought to take advantage of the necessities of Messrs. Leylands to extort from them a profit of something like 220 per cent. As it is he got over 60 per cent., which for a wastrel Minister in a profligate Government, is really not so bad.
I will now deal with this bargain from the standpoint of the State. In this connection I must refer to a passage in the Report as to Captain Pulleine's statement. I will quote from paragraph 2 of the Report:
But it will be said "you were speculating. You did not know what value you were giving." I quite admit that it would be indefensible in ordinary circumstances to sell or to buy what might be in a certain place on a certain day. But the circumstances were not ordinary. The difficulties of cataloguing were extremely great. There was a continual flow of vehicles, and their condition could not be shown on the catalogue, and nothing but experience could prove what they were really worth. They were described as "drivable," "towable," and "junk." A very rough description was prepared; but it was of very little use for the purposes of the buyer, and Sir Philip Dawson thought it was best to make a big round deal in which he took some chances, but the purchaser took no less.
Sir Philip is a man of business and he is not a Civil Servant or an amateur. He is a man who is a partner in an engineering firm of great repute, and he has had a most responsible post given to him by the Belgian Government. He is accustomed to these deals, and he thought it would be best on this occasion to make a big round deal with the purchaser. How has it turned out? The last word has not been said on this matter, and although I cannot for a moment say that I am saying the last word now, I do say that I think this matter wants some further inquiry. It is rather strange that whereas my right hon. Friend and his Committee did call officials of the Ministry and the unsuccessful firm who wished to acquire this dump, they did not call the successful firm. Messrs. Leyland feel very strongly on this point, and they have made a statement on the matter. I have communicated their statement to my right hon. Friend, and if anybody insists upon it being laid on the Table it will be laid, but the gist of it is as follows: delivered, it will be found that, in December the value of the deliveries would have been considerably greater than that of the deliveries actually made in January. To sum up these transactions, Sir Philip Dawson might have taken chances, but those chances worked out rather against the purchaser than against the Government, and if the Government had waited longer before completing the transaction they would have made less.
I now come to a paragraph in the Report with regard to the practice of the Department of selling to the original manufacturers, if possible. The paragraph reads: deliberate policy and not carelessness to deal with the goods in this way.
I turn from that to Slough. There are one or two small points in which, I think, the Committee fell into error. They said, for instance, that Abbeville Park was excluded from the deal. It was not excluded from the deal, but only from a particular clause. Then they point out in another paragraph that certain clauses contradict each other. That can be easily explained, because one of the clauses only applies to certain goods in France, and the other was of general application. But it is hardly worth while going into these minor points, although they tend to show, perhaps, that the Committee were not fully seized with all the facts. There were two sales at Slough; the one of land, buildings and sheds, and the other of vehicles and spares. But they can both be regarded as part of one policy, although one sale was for a definite amount of real property and the other for a contingent amount of personal property. I can defend them either together or separately. They can each be justified, and, as two affirmatives cannot make a negative, they can also be justified as a whole. The question may be asked, was the sale against the public interest? I want the Committee to visualise Lord Inverforth's position and the problem he had to face. He had thousands of vehicles in all parts of the world. What was he to do with them? He could not sell all to the original manufacturers, although he disposed of some of them in that way. If he had put them up for auction, they would have gone as absolute scrap in a great many instances. As long as he had Slough he was able to get them there, to repair them there, and to sell them as good vehicles. Slough, however, depended on the establishment of a Ministry of Supply, and the decision not to have one made the problem very difficult. The vehicles were coming forward in great quantities—in indefinite numbers, because it was never known exactly how many the Army would throw out. It all depended on military policy and a hundred other factors which could not be foreseen. The numbers and condition of the vehicles were unknown, and had he not made a forward bargain it would have been necessary to keep a very large staff. It is entirely against the policy of this Committee that any staff larger than the actual necessities of the Government demand should be kept. Secondly, they would have to pay heavy storage rates. To show how heavy these would have been I would refer the Committee to the evidence given as to Slough. Thirdly, there would be great complications in storing. It is not always possible to take delivery as soon as the vehicles are sold, and there would be a large number of both sold and unsold vehicles in store. We should have suffered very much from complications in regard to accounting and the identity of vehicles. That again would have involved a large accounting staff. Lastly, the problem still remains that you would have to sell many vehicles as scrap or get them repaired elsewhere. It is perfectly true the purchaser may make a profit. I do not begrudge him that because he takes considerable risks. What were the terms of the sale—the sale of cars I mean. The cars and spares in sight were put at £3,650,000 and our expert advisors declared that the purchasers would not make a profit—allowing for the cost of repairs and overhead charges and interest—until they had turned over £5,000,000. At that point they would make a fair profit. Beyond that point we come in. Between £5,000,000 and £6,000,000 we take 25 per cent. of the receipts—not the profits. Between £6,000,000 and £7,000,000 we take 40 per cent., and after that 50 per cent. of the receipts. These receipts for us are net, except for transport and certain administrative charges. If the purchasers turn over £6,000,000 we get £3,900,000.
I think the hon. gentleman has fallen into the same error as he made last April. The stores and parts are not included in the amount. It is only £3,000,000 for motor vehicles.
I think my right hon. Friend has been misled by the resemblance between the figures I have quoted.
I will deal with the point later on.
What I said was that the purchasers would have to sell £5,000,000 worth before they could get a profit.
But only of motor vehicles. The spare parts are not included, and whatever profit they make on spare parts they get the whole of it.
I did not say they did not.
You said it last April, and I thought you repeated it today.
5.0 P.M.
No, I agree that it is so. If they turn over £6,000,000 worth of vehicles we get £3,900,000. If they turn over £8,000,000 we get £4,800,000, and besides that we get £800,000 advantage on the sale of the depôt itself, besides the advantage of getting the repairs done at reasonable charges. The purchaser may do well, but then he has had to take risks, and if he makes a success of it we share in that success. Let me say one more word about the policy of Lord Inverforth. I am proud of him as a Scotsman. He has used his business judgment for the advantage of the State, as he would in his own business transactions. He has followed the markets, he has exercised experience and ingenuity in defeating rings, and I cannot help thinking that a considerable part of the resentment which has been shown against the Ministry in the country arises from the action of disappointed purchasers. The Minister of Munitions might have had another policy. Had he not been a man of business, there would have been a great temptation to adopt another policy. The Minister might have said to his officers, "Prepare your catalogues, instruct your auctioneers, and get the goods home and sell them as they come along." That might have been a safe policy; the Minister would always have had an answer for the Controller and Accountant-General, or for the Public Accounts Committee, but I believe such a policy would have been disastrous to the Revenue, and disastrous for trade as well. Take the case of metals. We have realised £45,000,000 worth of metals, and there are more to come. This called for anxious and careful watching; there was no promiscuous unloading. The policy of that branch of the Disposal Board, acting in accordance with my right Noble Friend's policy, was to satisfy the legitimate needs of trade and to follow and feed the market. If they had acted otherwise the market would have broken, the stocks would have been absorbed, and would then have been held by speculative buyers, and production for a long time would have been greatly discouraged. These were the kind of considerations that my right Noble Friend had to bear in mind, and did bear in mind. There is no parallel in history for his activities. The nearest analogy is the case of the South African War, where a much smaller quantity of material was sold under the Army organisation, and, as I think it was generally agreed at that time, with disastrous results. We had that case in mind this time, and my right Noble Friend has faced this problem of disposal in the light of his business experience. To go back to Slough for a moment, the Committee blamed the Ministry for not asking for tenders. These big transactions, however, are not carried through, as a rule, by tender. When my hon. Friend the Member for Chester buys a fleet, the transaction is only known when it is completed. It is the same when Banks or Insurance Companies amalgamate. Their assets are not advertised; the transaction is arranged privately. My Noble Friend, having a knowledge of all the conditions, knew who was likely to buy and who was not, and, having found his opportunity, he took it. If you want, as I believe the Committee does want, great men of business to serve the State, you must really trust something to their judgment.
As to the manner in which the work of the Ministry will be ended, it was considered possible at one time that the remainder of the work of the Ministry might be put under the control of the Treasury, and in that case it would, of course, have followed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have become the responsible Minister. On consideration, however, it was felt, in view of the great size and complexity of the transactions, that the same Minister must have at once the responsibility and the active control, and that was not possible in the case either of the Chancellor of the Exchequer or of the Finncial Secretary to the Treasury. Therefore, it was decided that Lord Inverforth should carry through to the end the work which he had undertaken. There are two remaining functions—liquidation and disposal. Liquidation will not last long. There are 17 unsettled contracts, only two of which are large ones, and these are, I believe, in the process of very rapid settlement. I have every reason to hope that the bulk of the work of liquidation will be completed in a very short time, and although, of course, it is inevitable that there should be oddments remaining, they will not require a staff of any size.
Does that mean within two or three months?
I hope so. Disposal will take a long time. The figures are still enormous, and, as I have already said, the Army are throwing up at present some £2,000,000 a week. Moreover, the wool clip that still has to be disposed of is of Very large dimensions. As the Committee knows, during the course of the War we bought the whole of the wool clip up to the 30th June following the termination of hostilities. That means that we bought the whole, of the clip in Australia and New Zealand up to the 30th June last. A great deal of that is still in Australia, and part of it is on the sea. To get that assimilated by the market will run well into the next financial year. In the meantime I may supplement the figures that will be seen on the White Paper. The figure there given for gross receipts is £504,000,000; but the receipts for this year were given up to the end of June only. I will now give the figures for July. The receipts from Disposals were £8,500,000, and from Trading Accounts, £5,390,000. These, added to what has already appeared in the White Paper, make a grand total, for the first four months of the present financial year, of £80,890,000. Meanwhile the staff is being reduced. On the 1st July, the headquarters' staff were 4,585 in number. They are now 4,157, and on the 1st October we calculate that there will be 3,611. That corresponds to an Armistice figure of 25,144. The total staff at that time we expect to be 12,281, as against 427,703 at the time of the Armistice. In passing, I am bound to say what I should have said before, but which I forgot, namely, that the figures given in the Report for the outdoor staff and as to Woolwich are, of course, entirely out of date, and have been since the 1st June, when the War Office took over Woolwich and the other national factories.
Now we are a revenue Department only. Formerly we were a purchasing and a manufacturing Department. We budget to bring in this year a greater net revenue for the country—temporary, of course, as is much of the expenditure under which we now groan—we estimate to bring in a net revenue for this year greater than the whole revenue of the country was in comparatively recent times, I should think within the last ten years. That cannot be done automatically; it needs time, organisation, and brains, and some expense is still necessary. Hon. Members who criticise these Estimates should remember how many times over they are set off by the vast sums which the Ministry gathers in. These sums do not accrue automatically, but are the result of organisation, time, and thought; and when, as I have said, the present Estimates are covered ten times over by their fruits, I do not hesitate to commend them to the Committee.
May I say, in commencing, that I thank my hon. Friend for what he said about myself; and may I say, also, that no one in this Committee is more certain than I am that he is only too anxious to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I am sorry to say, however, that I think he has been misled by the officials of his Department, and I shall, I think, be able to prove to the satisfaction of everyone who listens to me that the statements made in the Report of the Committee were, with one exception, absolutely accurate. That one exception is that we did call Captain Pulleine a Member of the Disposal Board in France, whereas he ought not to have been so called. I have referred to the notebook which I myself keep, and I find that Captain Pulleine described himself as an official and not as a member of the Board. I do not know whether the Committee are aware of the work which the Select Committee on National Expenditure entails upon its members. It took me four hours to write this Report and then two hours on another day to go over it. I apologise to the Committee, although I think it is excusable, for having committed the error of calling a certain gentleman a member of a board when he should have been described as an official. With that exception, I say that there are no errors of any sort or kind in the Report, and that the statements which have been made by the officials are untrue. I am prepared to prove from their own evidence, which was submitted to them, not once, but twice, and read again to them that the statements they have made through the mouth of my hon. Friend are untrue. If the Committee erred at all, they erred on the side of leniency to the Department. In answer to my hon. Friend's statement at the commencement of his speech that the Committee was not a judicial body, that it had no trained judges on it, and that the witnesses did not know what other witnesses had said, I would say that it is a Committee of the House of Commons. Are we to understand that Committees of the House of Commons are to be done away with if by chance they do their duty and report unfavourably upon a Department? Are they to be done away with, and is it to be said that there are no trained judges on them? Have commissions with trained judges on them always done so well?
My hon. Friend's statement that the witnesses did not know what other witnesses had said is quite inaccurate. What took place was this: A witness came and gave his evidence, and, if we thought that it was contradictory to the evidence given by another witness, we sent that witness the evidence. What more could we do? Not only did we send it to him, but we had him again before us. I did not act as a prosecuting counsel. I was in the Chair. I did not act as, I believe, judges do in France and other foreign countries. I did not even ask him questions. I said to him, "We have sent you this evidence; this is what that gentleman said," and I read out what he had said. I then said, "Will you kindly tell me whether you agree with that or not?" I ask the Committee, what could be done fairer than that? I say it is absolutely impossible to do anything fairer than that. I have had the honour of being a member of the Select Committee on National Expenditure during the whole of its existence, and during the time that it was presided over by Mr. Herbert Samuel I was the Chairman of one of the Sub-Committees. Since this Parliament met, I have had the honour of being Chairman of the whole Committee and also Chairman of No. 1 Sub-committee. Through all my experience there has never been an attempt to extract information from a witness or to put a witness in a difficult position, or to do anything but to deal fairly and squarely with the problem which we were asked to undertake. Now the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Central Division of Sheffield (Mr. J. F. Hope) says that Messrs. Leyland were not called. They were not called. But the right hon. Gentleman said that other people were called. These other people were not called, they volunteered, and had Messrs. Leyland volunteered they could have come. We did not call Messrs. Leyland for a very good reason. There is no fault to be found with them; they only did what anybody else would have done, they tried to make the best bargain they could for themselves. Why should we ask Messrs. Leyland to come and explain to us the very good bargain they had made for themselves? I think that is all that can be said on that point.
In order to show just what the Committee did, I would point out that they met 12 times and examined 24 witnesses. We have been told that we ought not to have said that the Ministry should cease to operate as a purchasing Department. I may say when the Committee opened that inquiry I went myself to the wit nesses Sir Graham Greene and Mr. Neylan, and I said, "We are going to ask you for certain returns. We are going to publish these returns, and if they are not accurate that is your fault." We also sent for the witnesses to know whether there had been a fault in the return or in any of the statements they made. The work took us from 27th April to the end of June, which showed how anxious we were to deal fairly and squarely with everyone and to see there was nothing in our Report that was not accurate. But if we were to be sending for other witnesses to know whether the Report the Committee put in was accurate or not we should have been there now, and that is the reason for the statement in the Report that the number of people employed on 5th July is said to have been inaccurate. The subordinates of the Department ought to have told us that there had been a reduction. One must remember that, although the Report stated 5th July, it was written about the middle of June. The Report had to be written, submitted to the Sub-committee, then to the main Committee, and, in the meantime, it had to be printed, and the two Committees had to have time to consider it. To show how extremely anxious the Committee was to be fair, let me point out what took place. On 5th July this Report was submitted to the main Committee. The Report is drafted by myself and was passed by the Sub-committee to deal with another contract. While we were discussing that contract we asked a certain question of the witness, who was an official of a Department or a member of a Department—I am not sure which—and he made an answer. I asked for a document to be sent. It took about three weeks before we got that document, and when we got that document it was an absolute contradiction to the statement of the witness. What happened? I said to the Committee, "I think we had better take this Report entirely out, because I think, in fairness to this witness, what he said is so absolutely in contradiction to the official document that we had better have him before us again and ask for an explanation. He must have made some mistake." Therefore that Report has never been presented, and now, owing to the lateness of the Session, I do not know whether I shall be able to get it through. But I think that shows how fair and anxious we were not to take advantage of what may have been a slip, or misunderstanding, or mistake on the part of the witness, but we sent for him again to put the very thing he said before him again, and to ask him, under the circumstances and showing him the document, "Have you not made a mistake?" We had to do that, and that necessitated a question to a solicitor of the Treasury. He gave his evidence, if I may say so, extremely well, and all this will come before the Committee later on.
My right hon. Friend (Mr. J. F. Hope) has said that we made a mistake about Abbeville Park. What we said was, and I think it is perfectly clear from my Report, that it was included in the price paid for Slough, the only extra payment being the amount to be paid should the vehicles be sold for over £5,000,000. Abbeville Park is in France. My right hon. Friend made a speech in April, but I do not remember seeing anything about Abbeville Park in it. There was not a single person in the country who supposed that when Slough is sold for £7,000,000 there were places in France included in that sale. Abbeville Park was sold for £450,000, and what happened to the purchaser was that he put that £450,000 into his pocket. Now about shipping. My right hon. Friend said that General Long had denied that he was accurate in saying that the ship- ping was going to cost £75,000. But that was what General Long said about shipping.
Where?
In his evidence.
On a point of Order. My right hon. Friend is about to quote from evidence which is available neither to this House nor to the Ministry.
On a point of Order. I believe I am right in saying that it is a custom of this House that if a Minister quotes from a document then it is necessary, if he is asked, that he should lay that document on the Table. I am not a Minsiter, and I understand—I took the trouble to consult with the Chairman of Ways and Means yesterday on this point—that I should not be bound to lay the document on the Table. But in order to avoid waste of time I am prepared to lay the whole of the document on the Table if asked.
I cannot see that the right hon. Baronet is not in order. So far as I have followed him what he says seems to be germane to the discussion. I do not know how far he would develop his argument in his speech.
On a point of Order. I understand that what the right hon. Baronet is now proposing to do is to read as evidence documents not yet before the House, not read by any Member of the Ministry, and in answer to a criticism on that he says that he will lay the documents on the Table.
That is the ordinary Parliamentary practice.
That course is perfectly useless for the services of this discussion, and the right hon. Baronet is well aware that not only was not that evidence furnished to the Minister, but that when the Minister requested it he was refused.
May I point out that I am only doing what every Minister since I have been in this House for 30 years has done. I am quoting from a document, and if asked to lay it on the Table to say that I am prepared to lay it on the Table. I would further say that this is the only document which I propose to quote from, with perhaps one exception, which has not been before the Department, and I will read a letter which was written to the Department when asked for the evidence, and I should not have quoted from it had it not been that my right hon. Friend has stated that General Long has altered his statement that the shipping facilities will cost £75,000. This letter, which is dated 21st July, is as follows: were investigating. I commend that to the attention of the Prime Minister.
Now I come to the case of Colonel Spurrier. I cannot for the life of me conceive what point my right hon. Friend is going to make out of this. It is a very important point, but there is nothing in the Report to show how important it is. He denied that Colonel Spurrier made an offer to Leyland Bros.
That is not the point. The point was whether Sir Philip Dawson told him to make an offer or to see what he could get.
Quite so. I am going to prove from their own evidence that Colonel Spurrier told us he was told by Sir Philip Dawson to make an offer. I am going to prove that that evidence was submitted to Sir Philip Dawson. I am going to prove that I read it to Sir Philip Dawson and asked him whether it was correct, and I am going to prove that Sir Philip Dawson said it was. Colonel Spurrier before the War was in the Leyland Motor Company, and he left it when the War broke out.
And sold his shares?
I do not know whether he sold his shares or whether he did not. His brothers remained in the Leyland Motor Company. One was the Chairman of the Company and the other was a Director. Colonel Spurrier was the salesman of motors. Colonel Spurrier stated that in his opinion what was sold to the Leyland Motor Company for 36500,000 was Worth £550,000. The Committee said to Colonel Spurrier, "Do you not think it would have been better if, in view of your relationship with the Leyland Company, someone else had done the business," and Colonel Spurrier said, "Possibly in the light of later events it might have been, but it did not strike me so at the time." We had evidence from a witness which was not mentioned in the Report. We did not mention it because the witness said he could not corroborate it. It was a conversation over the telephone, and the only corroboration was that he wrote a letter embodying the conversation over the telephone. We did not know whether we ought to allude to it or not, but we made up our minds that before alluding to it we would see Colonel Spurrier and see what he had to say. When Colonel Spurrier told us that he had been in structed by Sir Philip Dawson to make an offer we thought we had better see Sir Philip Dawson, and we saw him and he confirmed that, and there was a great feeling of relief in the Committee when that confirmation was given, because we thought that though perhaps Colonel Spurrier had acted foolishly there was evidence that he had not initiated of his own free will the sale to his relations, but that he had been instructed by his superior officer to carry out the sale, and being in the position in which he was, perhaps no blame attached to him. Therefore we did not mention the evidence of this witness. But now the whole position is changed. We are told Sir Philip Dawson did not say this and that Colonel Spurrier did not say it. What was it this witness said? He said he was informed by one of the Spurriers, who are Directors of Leylands, that it was never intended that Levers should have any opportunity of buying this dump. It was always meant to be Kept for Leylands and that Leylands did not interfere before because they were waiting until someone came along, and then they were going to step in and get it, and they said, "That is what our brother is there for."
Is the right hon. Baronet quoting from the Leyland Motor Company or a witness called in evidence before him?
A witness called in evidence.
Who is he?
I am perfectly willing to give the name of the witness if the House desires it.
This is a rather important question, as we are going into the question of evidence. Is the evidence which is now being quoted to the Committee evidence of a hearsay conversation, that someone told the Committee another person had told him something?
No, it is nothing of the sort.
The Committee will see the difficulty of the position. Under the Rules of the House it is not in Order for the House to discuss or to publish a Report of a Committee which has not been reported to the House or to publish evidence which has not been reported to the House. That is the general rule. I look upon to-day's Debate as a little unusual. There has been a Report by a Committee of the House, of which the right hon. Baronet is Chairman, and which has been reported to the House, and I think some latitude, under those circumstances, should be given to the Chairman of that Committee; but, as the evidence taken by the Committee had not been reported to the House, I suggested to him, when the point was raised earlier, that he might find it just as useful to put his case without trespassing too far on lines contrary to the usual practice of the Committee.
The right hon. Baronet is quoting something which he says cannot be corroborated and which puts a totally different aspect on even his own Report. He says someone said a conversation was heard over the telephone. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"] There was a conversation over the telephone. I think that is a very extravagant thing——
The hon. Member must give the Committee credit for being able to come to its own conclusion.
This is a very serious point. I understand the right hon. Gentleman is now adducing evidence which alters the Report that he and his Committee have issued, and it is only fair to ask where that evidence came from and whose it is.
The Committee had better allow the right hon. Gentleman to proceed.
There was no hearsay evidence at all. It is the evidence of a witness of a conversation which he had himself over the telephone with a certain person. This is what Colonel Spurrier said:
"Mr. Dawson was my boss, you might say.
Q. I do not want to interrupt you, but let me be sure of this point. Mr. Dawson had a list?
A. Well, it was a rough list. They asked me what I considered the value of St. Omer, and I said I considered, looking at the list, it was worth at least £550,000. He said, 'I have an offer of £450,000.'I said, 'It ought not to be accepted.' He said, 'Can you do better? 'I said, 'I am certain I can do better. Give me time and I will do better.' That is how it ended then. Then I went away. They asked me the next day, I think it was, if I had got a better offer. I said 'No. You must give me time. 'When I came down the next day, I think it was, and saw Mr. Dawson again, he said, 'I have these people waiting, and I think I must give them a reply.' I said, 'Well, give me the 'phone.' I then rang up Leyland's, and said, 'There is a park at St. Omer for sale.' Mind you, Leyland's had never seen it. I said, 'There are so many of your vehicles, I believe, there'—I forget the number—'and there are some Crossley tenders as well.' They said, 'We do not want the Crossley vehicles. What' do you want for it?' I said, 'I am authorised to take £500,000.' "
What about never having made an offer?
"They said, 'It is a very big figure.' I said, 'No, it is not; the value is there, I am sure.' They said 'Well, we shall have to have a directors' meeting after this, and we will let you know.' A few days after that they said, 'We will take it at the £500,000.'I daresay I might have got more had we negotiated more, but I got £50,000 more for the dump—that is, £50,000 more than Lever's offered; that is all I know about the transaction."
Then I said:
"Did Leyland's go and look at the dump?
A. No, not before they bought—not at all."
Is this the last time you examined Colonel Spurrier?
He came before us twice. Colonel Spurrier and Sir Philip Dawson confirmed twice the statement that they had made that offer to the Leyland people. I am going to prove it by chapter and verse. This was on the 8th June, and it was confirmed on the 22nd June. It is stated here that Leyland's practically bought all the motor vehicles that were brought over. They had an option really to buy all the motor vehicles that were brought over. On the 22nd June Colonel Spurrier was called again, and I asked him certain questions. I said: whether he asked them what they were prepared to give, or whether he made an offer, is beneath contempt. Sir Philip Dawson says he had never told Colonel Spurrier to offer the dump. Sir Philip Dawson's evidence has been given to the Ministry of Munitions, and I cannot understand how, in the face of that, Sir Philip Dawson can persist in his statement. Colonel Spurrier further said:
After that, how can he come forward and say he did not tell Colonel Spurrier to make an offer? He said, "I agree with Colonel Spurrier's statement there." I have not finished with Sir Philip Dawson yet. We asked him whether shipping facilities had been given. Though we had been told all the way through that such facilities had not been given, and we were continually being told that Lever's had been informed they could not get shipping, we were rather suspicious. We asked Sir Philip Dawson if any facilities had been given, and he said in so many words, "Oh, well, it is possible. There may have been some barges, but I do not know." I said to him, "You do not know? "He said, "No, I do not know the details." He was asked from whom we could find out, and he said Mr. Gwen. That is a summary of what took place. Would the Committee believe that later on Sir Philip Dawson said that some time about April Leyland's approached him and said that it was impossible for them to get any motors over, and that the whole thing was hung up because they could not get shipping? Sir Philip Dawson, who told us on 28th May, I think, that if there was anything in it he did not know the details, in April went to the Ministry of Shipping and appealed to the Ministry to give these facilities. Then Leyland's wrote to say that they did not want any shipping facilities, and that they had entered into contracts before. Unless Sir Philip Dawson has deliberately deceived the Committee, that statement of Leyland's is incorrect. Talk about judicial tribunals! A man who on 28th May says, "There may have been a few barges; I do not know the details," in April had appealed to the Ministry of Shipping in order to give these facilities.
I want to say a few-words upon the sale of Slough. Slough has been sold for £7,000,000. An attempt has been made to prove that the land and buildings were sold for £3,250,000, the spare parts for £6.50,000 and the motors and other things for £3,000,000, making altogether £7,000,000. When my right hon. Friend in April of this year told the House what, had taken place about Slough he said that there was a profit of £850,000. It is nothing of the sort. Nobody knows whether there is a profit or a loss at Slough. Slough was not sold for £3,250,000. What was sold at Slough was the land and buildings, the motor cars, in Abbeville Park, amongst other places, and all over the world—mechanical transport vehicles, spare parts, machinery, salvage material and other things situated in Italy and at Salonika on the Continent of Europe, in Egypt on the Continent of Africa, in Mesopotamia on the Continent of Asia, and all other places outside the Continent of Europe. That is a pretty large order. That was included in the Slough sale. Unfortunately, there were included all surplus motor vehicles and all surplus spare parts all over the world which might be declared surplus in the next two years. All that was lumped together and £7,000,000 obtained for it. How on earth can anyone say that any particular portion of that great lump was purchased at any particular figure? I saw one of the contract officials. I told him that this had been stated in the House, and I said, "You do not know what is the value of all these other things. I do not see how you can. How is anyone going to tell you the value of what is going to be declared surplus during the next few years?" I do not believe even the Attorney-General could tell us. I said also, "As all these other values are so uncertain, having sold Slough and the buildings for £3,250,000, why not make that a separate contract and take out the other things. Find out the value of the rest and then see what you can get for it." He said, "The purchasers would not agree to that; the whole thing was complementary." Do not talk to me about Slough having been sold for £3,250,000 and a profit having been made of £850,000. No one knows whether there is a profit or not.
On 27th March, 1919, the Secretary of State for War told us what the spare parts were worth. Of course that was more than a year ago. They are put down at £650,000, and every shilling that has accrued for the sale of these goes to the purchaser and not to the Government. These are the spare parts which will be declared surplus in the next few years all over the world and the spare parts which are all over the world now except in certain places. What did the right hon. Gentleman say? Was it £650,000? £15,000,000 is what he said. That is what he put their value at on 15th April. When you come to consider that, first of all, they have to get £5,000,000, and that that sum taken from £7,000,000 leaves only £2,000,000, and that then they have to get the spare parts, it seems to me that they would very nearly get Slough for nothing. I would not be at all surprised if they get it for less than that. In this connection I must refer to a very interesting episode. Last week an hon. Gentleman came to me in the library and he said, "You are the chairman of the Select Committee on National Expenditure?" I said I was. He said, "I want to know who are the members of the sub-committee investigating the work of the Disposal Board." I said, "Oh, would you mind telling me your name?" He told me. I said, "What do you want it for?" He said, "I want to see if they are fit to criticise as a department." I said, "I am not sure that I ought to give that without asking the Committee." He said, "Well, I rather expected that answer." I believe the names were given to-day in answer to a private question, and therefore I shall be in order in giving them now. They are Lieut.-Colonel Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Guinness, Mr. F. H. Rose, Mr. A. Williams, Mr. Kiley, Mr. Briant, Mr. F. O. Roberts, and myself—with the exception of myself, a not inefficient committee. My right hon. Friend comes down to the House on 15th April and says, "See what clever boys we are, we have sold Slough." The Select Committee always recommended the sale of Slough, except in August, 1918, when, after the great advance of the Germans, they thought that on the whole the site at Slough might usefully be retained. In November of that year the Select Com- mittee presented another report in which they said they thought the whole matter ought to be reviewed. Since the Armistice we have said it ought to be sold. What about the Government? The Secretary of State for War on. 27th March of last year said:
The contract, which is not signed, provides for contingencies in much greater detail than the agreement.
The Department sold a large quantity of material to a certain company and that company formed another company which purchased the bargain from the first company.
On the same day.
I think I have said enough to prove that at any rate my Com- mittee has done its duty under very difficult and arduous circumstances. We have been subjected to pressure. I will not mention any names, but a Minister said to me, "You are Chairman of a Committee which has sent out a report which has caused my Department some trouble." I said to that Minister, "I have the honour to be the Chairman of the Select Committee on National Expenditure, which Committee was appointed by the House of Commons. Our duty, without any regard to personal considerations or private considerations or public considerations, is for the House alone whose servants we are, and to whom I appeal to support it.
My right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) has made a speech which the House has listened to with the attention due to his many years of experience in this House, and to the fact that he presided over and drafted the Report of this Select Committee. I venture to think that even in the long experience of my right hon. Friend there has never been, if he will allow me to say so, a more deplorable speech made in support of a more deplorable Report. I shall certainly endeavour to avoid those topics of prejudice which from time to time have elicited cheers from some Members of the House. Let us see exactly how matters stand. The right hon. Baronet, with all his long experience of this House and the methods of Committees of this House, was appointed, with others, to make a report to this High Court of Parliament upon the work of the Ministry of Munitions, especially with reference to the Disposal Board. He has told the House in the course of the last hour of the labours of that Select Committee over which he presided. He even thought it necessary or desirable to mention that in the drafting of the Report he spent first a period of four hours, and afterwards a period of two hours. Would it not have been well in the references that were made to the work of the body that he was criticising to have made some reference, however slight, to their protracted and patriotic and very largely successful labours. I said "patriotic labours," because these gentlemen have brought to bear their business experience on these problems in the interests of the State without any hope whatsoever of reward.
That Board, as the right hon. Baronet is aware, was appointed so long ago as January, 1919. At the time when this Report was issued its labours had covered a period of a year and a half. During that period it had been dealing with surplus property scattered all over the world and property, I am told, consisting of over 350,000 types of articles. From the date of the Armistice until the 30th of June of this year, £250,000,000 sterling had been realised for surplus stores. More than that, in dealing with raw materials on trading accounts the same body of men had realised over £250,000,000 more. That is to say, that these gentlemen, giving their time and their services upon this body, have realised in that period a sum exceeding £500,000,000. That was the body whose labours the Select Committee, presided over by the right hon. Baronet, were to examine or to criticise, and to report upon to this House. What did they do? They have reported upon matters which, taken together, constitute something less than 3 per cent. of the total business which these gentlemen had in their hands. Anyone who reads this Report, and I wonder how many Members of this House whom I have now the honour of addressing have taken the trouble to read this Report and the documents annexed to it, anyone who reads it might well suppose that he is reading a review of the whole work and performances of this body. If he did not think that, he might well think this, and I venture to say he would be entitled to think, that he was looking at something deliberately presented by the Select Committee as a fair type and sample of the performances of the Ministry and the Board.
Let us see what this Report does. It consists of three parts. There is, first of all, the preliminary part, apparently intended to create a suitable atmosphere in which the remaining two parts may be read. In the first part, the preliminary paragraphs, from one to five, contain three main statements which have this ingredient in common, that they are, every one of them, incorrect. Let us see what they are. First of all, a reference is made to the Cabinet decision of the 23rd of March of this year. That was a decision whereby it was resolved that this Department should cease to be a purchasing Department, and this Report goes on to say that no steps had been taken to carry out that decision. It is quite true that this Report is not itself dated, but it was ordered to be printed by this House on the 5th of July, and the evidence was concluded on the 22nd June. Therefore, the Report must have been written between the 22nd June and the 5th July, and the Report is speaking of a period between the 22nd June and the 5th July, and it says that no steps had been taken. What had happened? The Cabinet decision having been given on the 23rd March, three days later a personal letter was sent to the Secretary of State for War indicating the fact that the transfer was to be made, and a few days later, on the 31st March, an official letter was sent to the War Office to the same effect. It was followed by action, and arrangements were made and a plan was drawn up, and by the 1st June +he transfer had been carried out. Therefore, though actually three weeks, or it may be five weeks, before the date on which it is said no steps had been taken for the purpose of giving effect to this decision, this decision had, to all intents and purposes, been performed——
May I point out what I have already said, that we warned the Departments, if they wanted to correct any statement which was made, they could do so. That was the statement made to us by Sir Graham Green.
I would ask the Committee to appreciate the point made by the right hon. Baronet. Is he seriously suggesting when evidence is given on a particular date of what has been done up to that date by a witness who does not know that that matter is going to be selected as a topic for the Report, and who does not know what the Report is going to say, and who does not know what the rest of the evidence upon that matter may be, that that witness, by the exercise of his imagination or by intuition is to go back and say, "Please do not put this into your Report, because events have moved since the day I gave my evidence." That is the first of the main matters dealt with in this preliminary part of the Report. I pass to the second, which is the statement that the staff still numbers—that means 5th July—49,950. In truth and in fact the staff had been reduced by the 1st July to 14,755. Then finally, in this preliminary paragraph, a witness, Mr. Neylan, is cited as having said that while the amount realised since the Armistice was £469,000,000, he could not give any account as to cost. That is what is represented, and the reader is asked to infer that while £469,000,000 worth of commodities had been dealt with, the witness who comes forward on the financial side of the Disposal Board has to admit that he is not able to give any account as to cost. What was the evidence; what were the facts? The documents which were before that Select Committee show that that sum of £469,000,000 was divisible into two parts. One of those parts, £237,849,055, had nothing to do with surplus stores. It had to do with what are called raw materials on trading account. It was the balance of that total, namely, £231,287,811, that had to do with surplus stores, and it was with reference to the cost of surplus stores that Mr. Neylan said, and rightly said, that it was not possible to give an account.
Mr. Neylan did not say anything of the sort. I was examining him, and I said:
"Could you give us as shortly as possible the amount you realised for sale?—That is a return showing the detailed amount. [ Document handed to Chairman. ]
Is the total amount down at the bottom £339,639,000?—Yes. You will notice that that includes raw materials as well, wool, and so on. The figures in respect of surplus stocks are shown here with certain additions.
The grand total you have realised up to 24th April is £339,000,000?—Yes, including raw materials on trading account.
Everything?—Everything.
Land, buildings, and everything?—That is so.
Have you got an account of the cost of what you sold?—No."
I am much obliged to my right hon. Friend, and the passage which he has read is no doubt a passage from the evidence, but there is another passage in the evidence, unless I am completely misinformed, in which Mr. Neylan makes it clear, as the fact was, that it was with regard to the surplus stores, and the surplus stores alone, that it was impossible to give an account of the cost. Here it is; and Mr. Neylan says:
That is the introduction to this Report. What is the object of these three statements? The right hon. Baronet must be deemed to mean what he says, and his words must be construed as meaning that which they convey to the reasonable reader. Is it not quite clear that the insinuation of these opening paragraphs is that here is a Department, dilatory, costly, and incompetent, clinging to the power which it has held, but which the Cabinet would, if it could, have put an end to? That is the introduction, and the reader, thus prepared, is taken on to deal with the second part of the matter, and that is the case of Slough. Here again, in the part of the Report relating to Slough, one finds two main allegations, each of which, as I suggest, is founded upon a complete misapprehension. I am not blaming the Committee for having looked at only £3,000,000 worth of the work of this Board, though I think they might have made it plain how small a fraction of the total work of the Board was being dealt with, but at least if £3,000,000 only was going to be looked at, it might have been looked at with care, and care might have been taken to avoid manifest errors. Let us see what is said about Abbeville Park. The right hon. Baronet denies that this Report represented that Abbeville was not included in the contract, but came in in some later way without extra charge. In paragraph 12, having described that which was transferred, mechanical transport, etc., it says "now situate in various parts of the United Kingdom and the Continent of Europe, excepting as follows: ( a ) Abbeville Park."
That is stated in the contract.
Taking one line from a contract without any apprehension of the rest of the contract, one may go seriously wrong. Abbeville Park is mentioned in the contract, I quite agree. The Report proceeds, in paragraph 13, to say: "The paragraph exempting Abbeville Park requires further notice," and cites from the contract the passage in which it is provided that:
"The Ministry, having invited tenders for the purchase of the whole of the contents of this Park, the purchaser agrees to be bound by the decision of the Minister of Munitions in respect of the sale thereof, provided that the purchaser shall have the right to request the Minister to refuse any tender upon the understanding that the purchaser accepts delivery of the vehicles contained in said park in situ. "
Then the paragraph adds that the amount received from the sale has been given to the purchasers of Slough. What is the representation? What is it that is sought to be conveyed, I will not say to the unintelligent, but to the diligent, reader of this Report? Is it not this, that here is a body so careless that while it is selling Slough it sells motor vehicles elsewhere, it omits Abbeville Park by express exception and then in a later part of the contract it goes on to give Abbeville Park without extra charge or, if what is to be found in Abbeville Park is sold to somebody else, then the price is to be handed over to the purchasers of Slough? When one looks at the heads of the agreement—and one would have thought that the person who drafted this Report would have had them before him too—it is perfectly obvious that Abbeville Park is only excluded from the obligation of the Ministry to deliver at Slough. The exception relating to Abbeville Park is not to exclude from the contracts; it is to say, with regard to the vehicles in Abbeville Park, "You are not to require us to deliver these at Slough." What is one to say of the right hon. Baronet's concluding observation upon the passage he takes out of the contract, in paragraph 13:
"This would appear to include the property at Abbeville Park in the sale without any further payment except as provided in paragraph 18?"
So it did.
Does that mean that Abbeville Park is to be paid for in the same way as the rest?
It means to say that Abbeville. Park is included in the £7,000,000, and that when the House was informed of what was sold at Slough for £7,000,000 it was not informed that places outside the United Kingdom were included, and we answer that Abbeville Park was included in the £7,000,000.
If that is what is intended to be conveyed, I cannot imagine words more misleading. I most seriously say that the natural meaning of the words at the end of Paragraph 13, taken in connection with the exception mentioned in Paragraph 12, is that what was to be found at Abbeville Park was to be included without extra payment, except what was provided in Paragraph 18. Those are the essential paragraphs of the Report relating to Slough, and then one comes to the conclusions. There are five conclusions to this Report. One of them relates to the matter of delay, which I have already mentioned; two relate to Slough, but for some reason which I do not in the least understand, although this emphasis has been given to Abbeville Park in the body of the Report, there is not a word about it in the conclusions. They do not even refer to another mare's nest which the Committee has found at Slough. May I ask hon. and right hon. Members to look at Paragraph 17, where the Committee observes that the Ministry have agreed to provide, as far as possible, barges and other vessels for transportation to Richborough of all vehicles, and then the Report goes on to say that that is in conflict with a previous undertaking that the Ministry will deliver to the purchaser at the Slough Motor Depôt. If the draughtsman had taken the trouble to read the letter of the 9th April which Lord Inver-forth signed, he would have seen, in Paragraph (10), that the stipulation referred to in Paragraph 17 of the Report referred only to the vehicles at Abbeville, was only to be effective as long as Richborough Ferry remained under Govern- ment control, and that those facilities would be provided at the purchaser's expense.
The conclusions with regard to Slough are twofold. The Report condemns the inclusion of vehicles over the period of the two following years. But what is the alternative plan? I listened with interest and with expectation to hear from the right hon. Baronet what the alternative plan was. The alternative plan must have been to retain control and disposition of these motor vehicles and spare parts which came to hand during the rest of that period. In other words, this Department was to retain its sales staff, was to retain what are called its handling staffs, and in all the depôts in which these vehicles were there would be two classes of vehicles; there would be those which had passed under the contract and those which had come in since. It needs very little imagination to observe the expense of the registration and the accounting that would be necessary. The second conclusion in this part of the Report relating to Slough is that some effort ought to have been made to ascertain the value. Those words, again, imply that no effort was made, but the Committee ought to have known perfectly well that an effort had been made. Figures had been put before the Committee showing the quantity, and the estimated quantity. The best efforts that could be made had been made, and we are left to imagine what remaining steps could usefully have been taken, and were not taken. So much for Slough.
Then I come, finally, to the case of St Omer, which is the remaining part of this Third Report, because it is only with reference to the Slough transaction and the St. Omer transaction that this Report has anything to say. There are three complaints with regard to St. Omer. The first complaint is as to the price which was asked of Messrs. Lever Brothers; the second complaint is as to the price which was asked, if a price was asked, of the Leyland Motor Company, and the third complaint is as to what are called shipping facilities. Let me look at each of these three complaints. First of all, with regard to Messrs. Lever Brothers, what are the facts? Towards the end of November, 1919, Messrs. Lever made an offer in respect of the vehicles at St. Omer. On 26th November, two representatives of Messrs. Lever Brothers visited that place, and saw what was to be inspected. On the 2nd December, they had an interview with General Young in France, on the 9th December there was a further interview in London, and on the 13th December they offered £450,000. That was their offer, and that was their only offer. A telegram was sent in reply saying that the price was £500,000, and. really, when one listens today to the prejudice which has been imported into this Debate, and when one reads this Report, one cannot help looking at paragraph 25, which says that Messrs. Lever Brothers had offered £450,000, and Messrs. Lever Brothers. Let me substantiate what I have said. The list was a list which had been prepared by the officer upon the spot, showing the number of vehicles in that place at the time of the making of the list. But vehicles were coming in, and vehicles were going out, and my information is that the vehicles that were being taken away tended to be of the best kind, and the vehicles that were being brought in tended to be quite different. I know there are figures in this Report—I do not know where they come from—that what was added was worth £114,000, but when you take away the value of what was removed you get a net addition of £95,000. I should like to know upon whose testimony those figures were based, because the information available to the Ministry of Munitions is information which leads to quite a different result. It is confirmed by the statement of the Leyland Company themselves that it was not really a larger quantity, but a smaller quantity.
May I answer that question? It was upon the evidence of Captain Hitchens.
I can only say I am surprised to hear that. However that may be, I was about to observe, when the right hon. Baronet interrupted, that he has made grave reflections upon the Leyland Motor Company. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] If the right hon. Baronet does not think that they are grave, I suppose that he is entitled to his opinion. But the House is also entitled to its opinion. The Leyland Motor Company, at any rate, think that the allegations which have been emphasised to-day are grave allegations; and, really, is it to be the practice in dealing with Reports of Select Committees of this House, for the Chairman of the Committee, no matter what his experience and his distinction may be, at the last moment, having refused production of the evidence to the Department concerned, having refrained from formulating any charge against an individual, which that individual might answer, to stand at this table and produce from somewhere a detailed report of the evidence, and read to those who are listening, and to the whole world, passage after passage, excerpt after excerpt, while those who have to deal with the discussion have no opportunity of knowing whence they come.
Have you ever given me an opportunity to raise questions in the House?
My reply was that the evidence was given to the Department, to Sir Philip Dawson, to Mr. Leyland, to Lord Inverforth and Sir Graham Greene. Those were the only people interested, according to their report to the Press, in the statement made, and the other evidence could have been had if they had made any assertion that the evidence was untrue, and they did not. I stated here at this box that I did not call Leylands because I made no imputation of any sort or kind against them, that there was nothing against them, and that all they were doing was to get a good bargain for themselves.
Really, this grows more and more sad. A letter was read by the right hon. Baronet in which the Minister of Munitions requested an opportunity of perusing the whole of the evidence. What was the reply? "You can have the evidence of your own four witnesses," and there was an express refusal to hand over the rest of the evidence. I say, whatever the practice may have been, it is a strange thing that charges should be levelled against an individual, aye, or even against a Department, without a clear formulation of those charges, a clear opportunity of answering them, and the means of considering the evidence upon which those charges are based. When my right hon. Friend goes further and says that he made no reflection upon the Leyland Motor Co., I ask myself, Has he forgotten—if he will forgive me the phrase—that most astounding passage which he thought fit to read—nay, he did not read it; he quoted it from memory—the astounding passage in which some witness, not named, spoke of a conversation with somebody, again not named, on some date not given, in which he said, in effect, that it was never intended that Lever Bros, should have this dump, but it was intended that the Leyland Motor Co. should have it, and that was what the brother was there for? Could there be a graver charge? And then we are told there is no charge at all.
I never said anything of the sort. I said there was a charge against Col. Spurrier and the Ministry, but not against Leyland's.
Then, really, one becomes more and more baffled. It is, in the opinion of the right hon. Baronet, a venial thing, a thing of indifference, that the Leyland Motor Co. should have in the Ministry of Munitions a brother of the two remaining directors, himself at an earlier stage a director, and in that Ministry for the purpose of seeing to it that Messrs. Lever Bros, were defeated and the Leyland Motor Co. got the dump. That is a venial offence, and to say that is not to make a charge! It was not only with reference to the allegations and insinuations which have been made that I venture to express surprise that the Leyland Motor Co. were not called as witnesses. A very important matter was to ascertain what they had got, and what was the worth of what they had got. It was not thought worth while to call them. They were not asked to come, and what is the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman? The Committee will judge. Was it not an astonishing answer? He said, "We did not call Lever Bros.; they volunteered." Because they volunteered, they were not allowed to give evidence; because the Leyland Motor Co. did not volunteer, they were not allowed to give evidence. The source from which the information could best have been got does not seem to have been investigated. Those who volunteered were allowed to give testimony; those who did not were not invited to give it.
7.0 P.M.
The remaining point is—what? The remaining point is this complaint of shipping facilities, and here again there can be no doubt as to the meaning of the Report. What is said in effect is this: Not only did you sell a much larger quantity of vehicles to the Leyland Motor Company for the sum of £500,000, but you gave them also most valuable shipping facilities which, had they been offered to Messrs. Lever Bros., would have turned the scale in their minds. Will it be believed after that criticism, that these shipping facilities, as they are called, were no part whatever of the contract with the Leyland Motor Co.? That contract was made upon 6th January. We are told that exactly the same contract had been offered to Messrs. Lever Brothers. There is no word about shipping facilities—not one word! It is not until April—I do not care whether it was April, or May—but the point is it was after 6th January—it was not until April that the company requested the use of the empty Government barges on their return journey, and it was not until 22nd April that the first of these lorries was brought back in that way. There was, in fact, on 20th March a Minute of the Ministry which would have made such a thing impossible. In other words, this matter, which was not in the least contemplated upon one side or the other, is dragged in as a make-weight to add to the disgrace, the shiftiness and the impropriety of this contract with the Leyland Motor Co. It does not end there. Not content—I do not say with the suggestion—but the clear statement; not content with the clear statement that the shipping facilities were added for the benefit of the Leyland Motor Co. as if they were part of the original bargain, the Report goes on to magnify the value of these facilities. What does it state?
I do not know which is the more remarkable of these figures. General Long put the cost of the transfer of one of these lorries across the Channel at the sum of £75. In another part of the Report we have yet a larger figure. A gentleman whose position is in dispute, Captain Pulleine, Controller of Mechanical Transport, said the stuff was worth £300,000 in France and £800,000 to £1,000,000 here. I take the lower figure at £800,000. So that the cost of transport is taken as £500,000 for 2,500 vehicles, which works out at £200 per vehicle. What was the fact as to transport? The fact was that the cost was £9 4s. 2d., and when the costing figures, upon which the £9 4s. 2d. was based, were offered to the Committee, the Committee would not look at them. What happened? The Ministry asked for £30. They asked in vain. But they got £15, which, except for shillings and pence, gives a profit of £6 upon every one of these motor lorries brought over in the empty barges upon the return journey.
Let me add one further observation. Having set out these startling figures in paragraph 52, where Captain Pulleine says the value of this stuff in France was £300,000, but here £800,000 to £1,000,000, the Report goes on to make this interesting remark:
That is, I think, the whole of the matter. These are the methods, and this is the spirit, in which the right hon. Baronet, with all his experience, has thought fit to attack this Department and certain other persons. The House will judge. One observation, and one only, and I will end. The shipwrecked mariner, as we know, when upon the distant shore he caught sight of a gallows, thanked God he was in a Christian country. Perhaps he was right. But, after all, a passion for censoriousness is not a real virtue. If I might, without presumption, address one word to the right hon. Baronet, it would be this: If censure is to be impressive, I do suggest that it should be administered reluctantly and upon good grounds——
It was.
If it is to be administered with evident relish and on bad grounds—[HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]—it is less impressive, and above all——
I said at the beginning that our desire was in no way to criticise, but to put a fair statement before the House. Instead of putting forward criticism with relish or being censorious I think we have been very, very lenient; we have been very lenient perhaps beyond our duty in our Report. It was not until we were attacked that we answered. If we are attacked we shall answer!
The statement of the right hon. Baronet as to what his desire was is, of course, conclusive. But we are discussing, not his desire, but his Report, and if he will allow me——
The Report was unanimously signed by the whole Committee.
I have said that if censure is to be impressive it should be administered on good grounds. It is not administered, I do not say with dignity, but with safety, if examination of the facts proves that it is entirely without foundation. [HON. MEMBERS: "No, no!"]
I beg to move, "That the Vote be reduced by £100,000."
The extreme importance of this Debate is evidenced by the fact that His Majesty's Government have taken the very unusual course of occupying the first three speeches, one by whom, I think, the whole House will regard almost as the most brilliant leader of the Government, in order to try and save a situation where, it is clear, the House realises that it is on a subject so grave that it requires special treatment. The right hon. Gentleman in his speech commenced by saying that the Committee presided over by my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) ought surely to have given a long statement of what the Minister of Munitions and the Disposal Board have done. I venture to think that the whole object of the Committee is to try and find out the weak spots, and not to form a mutual admiration society so as to be able to say what good things have been done here or there. The right hon. and learned Gentleman also made a very strong point of the fact that the right hon. Baronet the Member for the City had not sent for Messrs. Leyland. Messrs. Leyland had seen the numerous occasions when this matter was raised in this House, and I put it to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, it was up to them to ask permission to give evidence before the Committee which they knew was sitting if they were not satisfied with the evidence. Then the Attorney-General went on to tell us that these gentlemen, I presume he refers to Sir Philip Dawson and Colonel Spurrier, had worked there all this time with no hope of reward. I think that is not a strong point. I think if anything, after going into this question it must have convinced us that we must insist on having paid servants and men who——
I was not thinking of those Gentlemen. I was thinking of the members of the Disposal Board.
As the right hon. Gentleman referred to certain men and' only two names were mentioned, I suppose the right hon. and learned Gentleman was referring to the two I have named. But it is a fact that Sir Philip Dawson has had a reward. I do not think it ought to be put on the records of this House in defence of the head of a Department who is criticised that he is not a paid servant of the State. It is not satisfactory reasoning in a case so serious as this. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned an error in the telegraph. It might be a small matter for the Department, but it does show a lack, I think, of that business care in this particular Department which you would not expect.
The telegram was sent by the Post Office.
I beg your pardon again. I am quite aware of that, but I was under the impression that the telegram was put in figures and not in words.
The statement was put in figures only, and not in words at all. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear!"]
I have been in business all my life, and if we are offering anything in which figures are concerned it is invariably put in words.
As for the criticism of Sir Philip Dawson, the telegram was in figures, but the person responsible for actually sending it added the words. However it happened, it came out at the other end with the wrong words.
That is not in accordance with the evidence; it is entirely different.
If the right hon. Gentleman suggests that the Post Office made this colossal blunder, both in writing and in figures, I agree there is nothing more to be said. But it ought not to have been put in the Report. Responsibility ought to have been placed on the Post Office instead.
The Committee will remember several occasions when I have endeavoured to bring this matter forward, and I think hon. Members will do me the credit of believing that it was only big and important questions that I felt it my duty as a private Member to endeavour to ventilate. This particular question in regard to the St. Omer dumy has been one which has been exercising the minds of business men for a considerable time. I think one can claim to-day that the points which have been raised, and the questions put and answered in. this House, have been amply justified by the Report of the Committee, unanimously signed and approved by this Committee, which, be it remembered, is one of our Parliamentary Committees. There appears to be three main points which, if I may say so with all humility, it does seem to me to be the duty of everyone here to consider.
The first, and, to my mind, the most important of all, is the fact that an official was placed in this invidious position of having to take part in great sales by the State to his brothers, thus violating what used to be regarded as the greatest unwritten law of our Public Service. It seems to me to be a supremely important question, in view of the transactions which we know took place, and from whatever point of view one likes to size up the evidence. The second is this, that a great sale was effected in which one firm received preferential treatment as against a competing firm, in spite of anything that the right hon. Gentleman may just have said, which involved a serious loss to the State and to the taxpayer, and which, if proved to be correct, as I think it has been, will show that there was either gross incompetence on the part of this Ministry or something very much worse. The third point is this, that the business methods of the Disposal Board, which have been mentioned this afternoon by the Attorney-General, have proved on so many occasions to be unbusinesslike, that it does make one wonder whether the time has not come when we should insist on having sealed tenders for all these great contracts in order that we may really get the best offer and that there may be no opportunity for any possibility of going outside the ordinary rules of trade. On all these three counts I suggest that Parliament cannot afford to say, "Well, it is an interesting matter." If the counts are right, it surely is our duty to act. There are great principles involved, and there are great business considerations opened up from the point of view of the Government Departments.
On the first count, Colonel Spurrier was the Controller of the Transport Section of the Disposal Board, and whilst he was Controller he was negotiating, as I think has been absolutely proved this afternoon from that Bench, the sale of the St. Omer dump, which dump was ultimately sold to Messrs. Leyland's, whose chairman and another director, as the House knows, are both brothers of Colonel Spurrier. I have endeavoured to elicit the facts with regard to this on several occasions in the House, and I have never imputed to Colonel Spurrier corruption. I believe, as a matter of fact, he was a gallant officer in the War. I am told he did admirable service. I have never met him or seen him. The only reason why I ever raised this question was that it seemed to me to be an extraordinary situation that a man should be in such a position that he became involved in negotiations of great sales to his own relations. It is precisely because man is not infallible that the tradition has been handed down through generations that no member of the Government, no Civil servant, should allow himself to be placed in such a position that he is called upon to advise on, or to decide for or against, affairs which might benefit himself or his relations or his business associates. That, I beleve, is one of the most carefully guarded traditions of this House. I remember one or two occasions, which other Members of this House during the last ten years will remember, on which Debates took place where this principle was involved. If ever there was the smallest suspicion of this rule being violated, this House was filled as it was on no other question, because we realised it was the most cherished tradition of British public life that we should be able to clear curruption which we knew existed in other newer countries.
In this particular case in which this gentleman was involved, as we have heard today, Messrs. Lever's originally asked to be allowed to bid. Sir Philip Dawson was the head of the Motor Transport Department of the Disposal Board. It has been suggested again and again that this gentleman was merely a subordinate who had to act on the orders of Sir Philip Dawson. It is the opinion generally held in the motor world that Sir Philip Dawson—I do not know whether he knows much now, but at the time he went there—knew very little about this kind of business, and that Colonel Spurrier was sent there specially as a man who could do that side of the work and who could really advise him, and in fact tell him, whether a contract ought to be made or whether it ought not. Messrs. Lever's, as we know, offered a sum which Sir Philip Dawson told them was the lowest he could accept at that time. They offered £450,000. That was refused. Then we have to realise the fact that the offer by Messrs. Lever's was made on a list of vehicles which was provided by the officer in charge of the dump at the time, and which was checked by Messrs. Lever's representative before Sir Philip Dawson and General Young in London. General Long was there representing Messrs. Lever's.
This is the vitally important fact—and none of the red herrings which the Attorney-General has drawn across the track of this main issue in his most brilliant speech this afternoon will alter it—that the number of vehicles which Messrs. Levers were told were at the dump at St. Omer at that time was 687. I have a copy of the actual list which was given to them and which was checked at that time. There were 687 heavy lorries. We have heard one or two rather confusing things about so many other vehicles being taken in and so many other vehicles being taken out, but the fact remains that both these firms were after the heavy lorries and nothing else. They did not mind about the small stuff at all. They were prepared to buy the heavy lorries, and that was the whole question at issue. Sir Philip Dawson then sent for Colonel Spurrier, as we are informed in the Report of the Committee, who had acted as salesman, of the motor vehicles, and he valued the dump, and it is extraordinarily important, because it has not been answered—the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) put it forward, but it has not been answered—that Colonel Spurrier stated those vehicles in his opinion were worth £550,000. Then, whether he was ordered to quote £500,000, or whether he was told to get the best price he could from Messrs. Leylands, the fact remains that he entered into negotiations believing himself—and he was the man who advised all these contracts—that the dump was worth £550,000 why did not he call in Levers again? The proper method would have been to have played off Levers against Leylands. I ask why did not he call them in again? The fact remains that when Colonel Spurrier telephoned to Messrs Leyland he told them apparently that the dump could be bought for £500,000 and that the number of heavy lorries was 963. Whatever may have been the figure which Messrs. Leylands. found afterwards—and we have heard the letter read from that box to-day which Leylands sent—it really has nothing to do with the case. The whole case is this: What were they buying at the time? What vehicles did they believe to be there? Anything that Messrs. Leylands may have written afterwards, that they found there were 20 lorries or half a dozen bicycles short, is not germane to the argument. The point is what did they buy? On what did they make a contract? The Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Munitions says Colonel Spurrier himself had to fix the price with Messrs Leyland. I am going to ask the Committee particularly to take note of that fact, in view of the whole question of negotiation, because the whole of this question is extremely important.
It will be seen that Colonel Spurrier, who valued the dump at £550,000, offered it to Leylands, whether by order or whether on his own initiative, at £500,000; also he offered 963 Leyland lorries, as against the 687 which Messrs. Levers' representative had been told was what they were competing for, and which was checked m the presence of Sir Philip Dawson and General Young, on the one hand, and General Long, representing Messrs. Levers, on the other. Messrs. Leylands, without ever having seen the dump, but simply on this telephone message from Colonel Spurrier from the Ministry of Munitions, bought it for the figure of £500,000. The Sub-Committee presided over by the right hon. Gentleman estimate that the difference in these vehicles was £95,000. I have endeavoured to get evidence from one or two men who understand this kind of business, and they think that the figure is more or less right. As a matter of fact, one of my friends told me he thought the difference was £100,000, another £105,000, and another £87,000, so that we can take it that that figure is more or less a correct estimate. But assuming that Messrs. Levers—and this is the real point—had been told that the dump would include these extra lorries, then it is quite clear that they would have been ready to have given that increase in price. We have no reason to doubt that, and if that is so, then the State has been a loser of £95,000 for practically no reason whatever that I can see, except that it was desired by certain people in the Ministry to give this contract to a particular firm.
I desire to refer to one or two answers which the right hon. Gentleman the representative of the Ministry of Munitions, and also the Leader of the House, have made in this House. I desire to say at the commencement, that I am perfectly well aware that the information was given to them by subordinate officials, and if I prove, as I think I can do, that absolute mis-statements have been made in this House on something like seven or eight occasions at Question Time, I think the Committee will be convinced that those officials, for some reason or other, have found it imperative that they should send answers to be given in this House which do not represent the facts, and that the Minister standing at that box has therefore had words put into his mouth of which I am perfectly convinced he would not have been guilty. On 3rd June I asked the hon. Gentleman the Lord Privy Seal this: here are the two indexes. Here is the index which was shown at the conference to which I have alluded. Although a precise list may not have been given to Leyland's, we have it from Colonel Spurrier himself that he telephoned the exact number of vehicles that there were at St. Omer. It is not true to say that the two offers were in every respect comparable, both as regards quantity and as regards value. The important fact, it seems to me, to remember is that these large additions to the dump took place at quite a late date, and, as we have heard already, we have that on the evidence of Captain Hitchins, who himself was in the employ of the Government at that time. The Disposal Board, in a communication to the Press within a few hours of the publication of the Report by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, replied that the dump was sold as a dump. After what I have pointed out, and after what the House has heard from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London, and also what is in the Report, I think hon. Gentlemen will agree that it is impossible to accept that description, and that if the Ministry of Munitions is really guilty of selling a dump as a dump which varies in value over perhaps three weeks by £100,000, when the total price was £450,000 to £500,000, I think it would be such a condemnation that I do not think the Ministry of Munitions would seriously put it forward. We have heard to-day about newspapers attacking the Parliamentary Committee within a few hours of their Report. If we are going to sit still and allow Departments to rush into print—it is bad enough when Ministers do it—and give the lie direct to Committees set up by this House, it seems to me that we are getting very nearly to the end of Parliamentary government, and it is time we made our protest against that kind of thing. With regard to the advantages in transport, it is a very big thing. Messrs. Lever's were led to understand that no special facilities were going to be given. Something has been said to the effect that Messrs. Leyland's were told the same thing, but they got these great advantages, and that is what we have to think about. We have been told that the market rates were from £40 to £70 for cross-channel traffic for lorries, but we now hear that the Shipping Controller offered to bring them across, and he fixed the price at £30 per lorry. Then Lord Inverforth steps in and says, "Oh, no! they must be brought across at £15 per lorry." It must not be forgotten that Messrs. Leyland's had made their con- tract, and suddenly Lord Inverforth comes forward, and once more the friends of the Ministry of Munitions have to have these great advantages given to them, and they were allowed to transport their stuff at these prices.
Suppose we take £40,000 as the private cost of transport, and Lord Inverforth's price at £15. Take 1,500 vehicles, it would work out to the one firm over the other at about £35,000, and that is a very big figure. Assuming that the dumps were the same value and size, there was only £50,000 difference between the two contracts. Firstly, I think the State has suffered great loss; secondly, I think the Committee will agree that the deal was an improper one; thirdly, that the Department itself deliberately aided one firm with advantages which it denied to another; and, fourthly, the two firms were competing for goods of great difference in value, and these facts were withheld from one of the competing firms. Those are the charges I make, and I think they require a very different answer from anything we have yet received.
Does the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that certain information was given to one firm and not the other? Is that the charge?
I said certain advantages were given, not information. I said that the Department itself deliberately aided one firm with advantages which were denied to the other.
Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman say that information was given that enabled them to tender? That was what I understood him to say.
No, I did not say that. I asked the Leader of the House some months back, when I realised that this was a serious question, if Colonel Spurrier negotiated the sale with his brothers. Everybody knows that the Leaded of the House would never attempt or wish to deceive his colleagues in this House, but he has been deliberately deceived by those who supplied him with the information in this Department. I asked if Colonel Spurrier negotiated the sales of these lorries, and I was told,
"He has no power to make sales above £5,000."
Later, in a written answer, I was told that
"Colonel Spurrier did in fact sell 666 Thornycroft cars at £400 each."
He sold them under the direction of the Department.
Again, on the 10th of May, the Leader of the House said, Government, instead of always plunging into the defence of their officials when an hon. Member brings up a question of this kind, would really endeavour to get the full evidence first, and then we should be spared many of these difficult debates. In December, 1900, the Prime Minister felt so strongly on this question that he moved an Amendment to the Address, and he said: ham, near St. Omer, France, and he was informed: does not the failure to answer them make it clear that the State is losing very valuable assets?
If hon. Gentlemen will carefully study the business methods of the Disposal Board, I think they will be convinced that the Ministry has always been a scratch affair. Splendid patriotic men came there in order to serve their country. Some of them have naturally gone back to their business. Some remain. Some are very efficient, but the spirit of the British Civil Service has never been inculcated into them. Surely by this time the Disposal Board has been able to price the surplus stores, and, if so, some other Government Department could take over the business, could get the catalogues ready, and sell off the goods. Only a fortnight ago I asked how many dumps there were still in France. The Department did not know, and I had to postpone my question. Four days later, when an answer was forthcoming, I was told there were still 200 in France. Everybody who knows what is going on around these dumps will agree that the better plan would be, if they cannot be sold in France, to get them home here and sell them, and at the same true, to hand over the work of the Disposal Board to a permanent Government Department, and allow these gentlemen to return once more to the private avocations. I beg to move a reduction of the Vote by £100,000.
We are to-day asked for a certain number of millions in order to carry to a completion the work of this Ministry. This discussion has centred chiefly around the Report of the Committee on National Expenditure, and any confidence I had in that Committee, or their Report, has been completely dissipated by what I have listened to this afternoon. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury), assuming the rôle of a judge of the High Court, stood at that Table for an hour and a half, I did not wonder there was criticism and contradiction of the statements made in the Report of a Committee sitting under his Chairmanship. A good deal has been said about this Report, and one finds it difficult to get away from it. As it undoubtedly may have a bearing on the ultimate decision of this Committee with regard to the Estimates, I want to make a few observations about it. I have read the Report carefully, and along with it the statement which the Minister of Munitions found necessary to issue to the Press owing to the misleading nature of the statements contained in that Report. With both these documents before me, I am alarmed when I contemplate the harm that is possible to be done by putting inexperienced and prejudiced people in a position of authority to advise this House and the public.
8.0 P.M.
These documents have forced me to one of two conclusions, either that in this Ministry of Munitions there must have existed the most amazing carelessness and ineptitude—and there are definite indications of something very much worse—or this Report is the most misleading official document ever issued, and a disgrace to the Committee responsible for it. The Minister of Munitions, in his reply, has publicly used language of this sort, "grossly misleading," "entirely inaccurate," "entirely erroneous," "absolutely inaccurate," "obviously absurd," and "untrue." That is wonderful language for a Minister of the Crown to use in reference to a Committee of this Honourable House, and I hope to show later on that a good deal of it is well founded. If one were left with these two documents he would be in despair, but I find that the Ministry of Munitions, in making these charges of inaccuracy and falsehood, is able to substantiate them with cold reasoning and fact. The Attorney-General this afternoon has covered the ground in a very able and convincing way, but I should like to refer to one or two Clauses in which I find most astounding discrepancies. I become suspicious when I find this Report only deals with two old friends of ours, Slough and St. Omer. It contains 59 Clauses, 49 of which refer to Slough and St. Omer, which, the Attorney-General tells us, represent in revenue only 3 per cent. of the whole of the transactions of this Ministry. I become suspicious, therefore, that there has been something in the nature of prejudice in framing the Report. This Committee will be able to judge of that for itself, if it ever comes to deal with the remaining 97 per cent.—a task which, at the same rate of progress, will afford them jobs, I should think, for the rest of their lives. With regard to Clauses 2 and 3 of the Sub-Committee's Report, to which the Attorney-General has referred, the right hon. Gentleman for the City of London seems to have been completely unable to answer in any way the charge of incorrectness so forcibly made by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. This Clause is a Clause stating that the Ministry of Munitions had taken no steps to carry out a certain Cabinet decision up to the end of June. Not only had he taken steps immediately after the Cabinet decision—within three days— but the whole transfer was completed five weeks before this Report appeared. If a man tells you something which you find to be incorrect, it shakes your confidence in anything else that he may say, and that is the position here.
With regard to Clause 5, where the Committee state that the Finance Member of the Disposal Board was unable to tell them the cost of the material sold, it has been shown by the Attorney-General that, if he had been asked for the cost of raw material on trading account, the figures would have been forthcoming. He was never asked, as I understand, for those figures. What sane man could expect to have produced the cost of the rest of this material, of 350,000 different varieties, all over the world, bought during the fever of war by all and sundry Departments, at any price and under any conditions, having been used for five years in war, and finally thrown up as debris to this one Department to sell. Yet they are asked quite calmly by this august body to produce the cost of it. The thing is grotesque. In Clause 6 it is stated that Sir Graham Greene was asked to put in a return of the actual cost of motor vehicles, spare parts, etc., at Slough I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman or any of his Committee ever saw a barge load of motor transport vehicles being delivered at Richborough from Dieppe, Calais, or Dunkirk, or if they ever saw a convoy of these old, war-battered derelicts being towed up from Richborough to Slough. If they had seen them at Slough, Kempton Park, and other places, lying about for months in all sorts of conditions, I think they would not have asked Sir Graham Greene to give them an account of the original cost of the vehicles. As the Attorney-General has mentioned, in Clauses 13 and 14 we get a complete misstatement and misunderstanding as to the Abbeville Park. Reference is made to evidence given by General Long and Captain Pulleine in respect of the St. Omer transaction which is really so wild that it is hardly worth while troubling the Committee with them, except that the right hon. Gentleman this afternoon very solemnly told us that General Long was an old soldier and that he believed what he said, and was perfectly sure that General Long believed what he said. That does not convince me at all of the fact that an old soldier is the last person to whom I would go to give an estimate of the cost of carrying a vehicle from Richborough to Slough.
Does the hon. Member know that that is General Long's whole business in life as adviser to the War Office, and that the extraordinary success of mobilisation was entirely due to him?
I was aware of that, but it does not give me any more reliance on General Long's figures, because I also happen to have spent a lifetime in the same kind of business, and, at the time these figures were under discussion, I had something to do with the working out of the cost. It was finally found to be £9 14s. 2d. per vehicle, instead of £75. As to the evidence of Captain Pulleine, he estimated that the cost would be £200 per vehicle, which, of course, is childish. One can see sticking out all over this Report the fantastical and silly hallucinations of the "anti-waste crusaders." The Report, from its very nature, assumes the authority of a judicial Report, where evidence is taken from all interested, and is weighed and recorded by men accustomed to deal with evidence and with cross-examination. In this case, however, one of the principal parties, one of the people most concerned, and in regard to whom the most unmistakable insinuations have been made, was not called. The Committee has sat on 12 occasions. If, as I have said, they are intending to expend the same care and thought over the rest of the inquiry, we shall never come to the end of it. From beginning to end I challenge any Member of the Committee, or any Member of the House of Commons, to show one single Clause in the Report of that Sub-committee by which the posi- tion of the British taxpayer can be in the least improved, any more than if it had never been appointed. I do not think anyone can say that there is such a suggestion in the whole Report; and there are many suggestions and much advice in it which, if followed, would cost the British taxpayer heavily. I hope that the Committee will ignore that Report in their decision on this Vote.
I am inclined to think that, the Committee has taken altogether a mistaken view of this Report, and I am profoundly afraid that the right hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General has wasted a great deal of his eloquence in discussing what, after all, is not the opinion of the Committee, but simply a statement and digest of the evidence taken by the Committee. That being so, I do not want to say anything in defence of my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London, who is quite able to take care of himself. I do, however, want to say, speaking on behalf of the Labour party, that, however much we may dissent, and we do all of us dissent, from the political and social opinions of the right hon. Gentleman, there is not a man in the House of Commons who is held by the Labour Members in higher esteem, respect, and, indeed, affection, than he is. We all of us resent, and I am sure all my colleagues on the Committee deeply resent, the suggestion that an honest, honourable British gentleman should be stigmatised as a liar and a misrepresenter of facts by a Whitehall gang.
And now I want to say a few words from another point of view altogether. I am not much concerned about St. Omer. I am not going to express any opinion about it, because I decline to say, under the defence of Parliamentary privilege, things that I would not say outside. I want, however, to say something about Slough. If ever there were an illustration of the hopeless ignorance and incapacity of a Government Department, it is found in the transfer of Slough. There is nothing to be said against the purchasers of Slough that is in the slightest degree censurable according to the accepted canons of modern commerce. The purchasers have a perfect right to take advantage of the ignorance and stupidity of the people with whom they are dealing. So is every other business man. Perhaps I may be allowed an illustration. An aged connection of mine, a poor and uncultured man, had in his house a number of old pictures. A person came to visit him one day, noticed the pictures, and offered him £50 for them. It was wealth untold to this old man, and he parted with them and was delighted to do so. They were sold the next week at Christie's for £3,800, being original Morlands. The man who bought them knew what he was buying; the man who sold them did not know what he was selling. The man who bought them was just as honest as the man who sold them, according to business canons and business law.
Is that your view?
I say that that is the accepted canon of business. If a man goes into the market to sell, he is supposed to know what he is selling, and what is its value. If someone else who comes to buy knows better what its value is, and buys to his own advantage, I say he has a right, according to every business principle, to act upon that. I do not say that I approve of it, that I regard it as moral; but I say that it is business, and the sort of business that is done every day, and will be done as long as we live under a competitive system. What has happened in the case of Slough? It was sold to Sir Percival Perry. He was the individual through whom the transaction was carried out, and, in a letter to Lord Inverforth, he stated that he was purchasing with a view to transferring his contract to a company in process of formation. Sir Percival Perry has been Director of Traction in the Ministry of Munitions. If anybody knew approximately what motor traction we had, where it was, and what, at least, was something like its value, that one person, I submit, would be Sir Percival Perry. That the' people at the Disposal Board did not know is absolutely certain, for not one of them could be induced to suggest how much they were selling, or that they ever thought or asked how much they had, or set any inquiries on foot to discover it. The whole business from end to end shows this feverish anxiety to drop their responsibilities, to make any bargain they could make, and to be concerned altogether too little, as I think, about the taxpayers' interest. The consequence has been that a good bargain has been made by the Slough Trading Company; but it is not a good bargain for the nation. I want to put this from a broader point of view than the mere commerce of the transaction. We have sold to the Slough Trading Company not merely Slough and all that therein is, but all the motor cars surplus to present military requirements, all motor vehicles in Great Britain and Ireland, all motor vehicles on the Continent of Europe, to be brought over here at our expense from the places where they may be now, and delivered at Slough, and all motor cars elsewhere in the world in situ.
Nobody on our side knows even approximately the value of all this property, but that its value is more than £7,000,000 I am bound to say here and now. The Secretary of State for War told us earlier on that the spare parts alone were worth £15,000,000. If that be so, or nearly so, or if it be half so, does it not suggest that after all, from the mere commercial point of view, those Slough people have made a very excellent and admirable deal for themselves? I and my hon. Friends on these Benches were frankly in favour of Slough being retained for public national purposes and for setting up a national service for motor traction under the control of the State. Whether hon. Members agree with that point of view or not, however, seems to me to matter very little now, and I do not want to labour that phase of the question. What I want to point out now is this, that motor traction is the only mobile military transport in many parts of the world to-day. May I suggest the possibility, only the possibility, I do not even say the probability, of military operation on an extensive scale in Poland and Russia? Railways there are a negligible quantity. Supposing you have to undertake, and it is not impossible, everybody knows it is not impossible—it may be as improbable as you like, but it is not an impossibility—supposing you had to commence extensive military operations in any of those places, where is your motor traction? You have got to buy it back from the Slough people at ten times the price you sold it to them. The same might apply to Mesopotamia, Syria, Egypt, or anywhere, else you might happen to have military operations. You have got to go back to the Slough people and buy back the motor traction at any price they like to charge you, although you have sold it to them at old-iron price. What else happens? If those military operations are concluded inside two years, the whole of it reverts to the Slough Trading Company without the payment of a single penny. Do you call that a good deal for the nation? All I have to say is that those who have, or pretend to have, the nation's well-being at heart are very easily satisfied.
There is a higher consideration than all that, and it is an engineer's point. I suggest that a more important and potent epoch in human development is being opened out by the internal combustion engine than was the case in the introduction of steam. During this century you have developed aviation by means of the internal combustion engine. Road traction, as distinguished from the railway, is a force that is likely to shift the steam locomotive clean off the track in the course of the next half century. It is because of that we resent the handing over to what is practically a private monopoly of this great factor of human progress. There has been nothing, so far as all these deals are concerned, except sharp business practice on one side and dull-witted stupidity on the other, and, unfortunately, the dull-witted stupidity has been on the part of the Disposals Board, and we have got to pay for it. I do not suggest, I am not suggesting, and I am not going to take any share in the innuendo, or the inference, that there has been some corruption somewhere. I do not believe there has been any corruption, but I believe that there has been hopeless and culpable incapacity.
I have accepted this Report as one member of the Committee, and I have expressed both to my colleagues all together and particularly and personally to my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Sir F. Banbury) the fact that I dissented from it from end to end, not because it was too drastic, but because it was not sufficiently so. I had one regret, that my right hon. Friend did not invite me to collaborate with him, or, indeed, hand over to me the task, which I would willingly have undertaken, of writing the Report. If it had been an effusion of mine there would have been a much sharper draught in some of the Whitehall corridors than is likely to be caused by this all-too-charitable set of conclusions. If there is anything that angers me more than another thing in this connection it is the wretched ingratitude of those people who have been let down so lightly. When I have heard and read and re-read some of the evidence put before-this Committee, and some of the statements in defence of the deal put up by the advocates and apologists of this unfortunate Ministry, I always feel irresistibly reminded of those beautiful and impressive words which Russell Lowell has put into the mouth of his pious editor—
Whatever conclusion the Committee may come to as the result of this Debate, I think they will be agreed upon one thing, and that is that both the Committee which has issued this Report and the authority which it reported upon has an equally disagreeable task. It is one of the evils of every great war that persons who wish to make use, for their own personal advantage, of the exigencies of the war are always far too common. After the Crimean War we had scandals in connection with hay and boots, and after the South African War there were scandals which are fresh in the memory of most of us, and it was only to be expected that something of a similar nature would occur after this War. The hon. Member who has just spoken has said that the Chairman of this Committee, the highly respected Chairman, has been stigmatised as a liar. I heard no one this afternoon call him a liar. I have heard several people say that the conclusions which he, or his Committee, came to were not sound conclusions, that they were biased conclusions, and that there were statements in the Report which were inaccurate. But I think the very last thing anyone in this House, or out of it, would say was that the Chairman of that Committee fell under the category mentioned by the hon. Member. There is no one for whom I have a greater respect. I feel that the very able speech which the Attorney-General delivered has met practically all the charges made by that Committee. To my mind his speech is entirely unanswerable. I felt when he had finished that perhaps the best thing to do would be simply to vote and not to discuss the matter any further. I want to ask the Committee to consider some of the broad points of view which have to be taken into account in considering this work, and I speak now as one who was for some time a member of the Disposal Board and has firsthand knowledge of the work it has accomplished.
Why did the Minister of Munitions issue a manifesto refuting the statements that appeared in this Report when it was originally issued? The answer is to be seen at once if anyone cares to look up the papers about that period. Here is an evening paper of 9th July, and in big type at the head of one of the columns appear the words "Stop munitions waste at once. Ministry should have died in March, 49,950 still employed." It is this continual crying of stinking fish that is doing the Ministry of Munitions and its work so much harm. The Ministry is in the position of a business firm which has large stocks to dispose of. You do not assist the sale of your stocks if you are continually decrying them and everyone associated with them as either seller or purchaser, and that is why the Minister of Munitions thought it his duty at once to issue a reply to the Report of the Select Committee. There is a certain amount of reason for thinking that the Report of this Committee was to some extent biassed. In the first place, there is not one single word of appreciation in it of all the work the Ministry of Munitions has done, and in the second place, out of all the transactions which this Department has undertaken—transactions which are set out in the White Paper here and which run into many millions—it selects only two for treatment, and those are two which have been for some time the subject of a considerable amount of public controversy. It is quite right that they should be carefully examined in order to satisfy the public mind. No one quarrels with that for a moment. What one quarrels with is that in examining these transactions they should have made gross errors which no business man should make, and should have come to conclusions which are not at all in accordance with the facts when they are carefully examined.
In taking evidence with regard to Slough the Committee did not even take the trouble to study the documents, and in consequence fell into a grave mistake. In taking evidence with regard to the St. Omer dump they based some of their assumptions on the evidence of a man who was employed as a commission agent of the first firm that entered into negotiations to buy that dump. They put in their Report two paragraphs based on a statement made by a junior official which was wholly inaccurate and, indeed, ridiculous, to anyone who has any knowledge of business matters or of these particular transactions at all, and the whole Report shows a lack of imagination and ignorance of the principles which ought to guide the board in dealing with a transaction of this magnitude. The right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) complained that an hon. Member went to him in the Library a few days ago and asked for the names of the sub-committee—I was not that hon. Member—and told him he wanted them because he wanted to see whether they were competent to form a right judgment of the transactions they were considering. Is that not a perfectly natural thing to say? There were very few business men who have ever had dealings of this magnitude. The work of the Ministry of Munitions has been exceptional and colossal, and all those engaged in it have been engaged in colossal transactions. The Committee lays great stress on the fact that the officials of the Board did not know what the article they were dealing in originally cost. I submit that they did know. It was merely a matter of ascertaining, if they wished to do so, and this particular Committee, which is set up in order to assist in reducing the Government machinery, actually allows it to be inferred that it wants to increase the Government machinery and set up a huge department of costing in order to find out what a motor lorry in Salonika had originally cost to manufacture in England. When you are selling a broken down motor lorry or a machine-gun that has been damaged in action in France it does not matter a bit what it cost. The whole policy of the Ministry was to sell quickly at the market price. It had nothing to do with original cost, and that does not enter into the transactions at all.
I will ask the Committee to consider with me these two sales of Slough and the St. Omer dump from a broad point of view. Take the case of Slough. The purchase of Slough has been discussed before. Slough is a fact. So long as there was in contemplation a Ministry of Supply I maintain that Slough was a necessary adjunct of Government machinery. But the moment the need for the Ministry ceased to exist the purposes for which Slough was orginally purchased ceased to exist also, and the best thing to be done was to get rid of it. How are we going to set about that task? Here you had something which was entirely exceptional. It was something in the nature of a white elephant. What do business men do when they have something to sell which no one wants, and which they are very anxious to get rid of? Do they advertise it? Do they go round and tell everyone, "Here I am stuck with this particular stock, and I want to get rid of it. Will you not buy?" Of course, they do not. The first thing they do is to keep quiet about it. The sale of Slough would not have been helped a bit by putting it up to auction or asking for tenders. Slough was only useful so long as there was transport to go into Slough, and it was practically useless without it, and the Ministry was faced with this difficulty. The market was very limited. There are not many people in the world who will enter into transactions of £7,000,000 with possibilities in the far future, who are competent to deal with vast numbers of motor cars, lorries, and vehicles of every description coming in a never-ending stream for years. The people who can handle a thing like that are very few. What is the good of putting it up to auction? The only thing to be done is to select out of that few the person you think is the most likely buyer and try to persuade him to like the job on. That Lord Inverforth did, and I think he deserves very great credit for it. I look upon this Slough transaction as one of the finest transactions he ever carried out in a long list of splendid business transactions which be performed on behalf of the country. I ask the Committee to bear that in mind. We cannot here go into all the small details and intricacies involved in this arrangement. Let us look at it from a practical point of view. We could not run Slough as a national workshop. We cannot go on keeping Slough open as a big repair shop when the necessity for a big repair shop has ceased to exist. The only thing is to get rid of it quickly, and that is what was done.
With regard to the St. Omer dump may I ask the Committee to consider what this really meant? There are a great many hon. Members who know the town of St. Omer and the country surrounding it. It is very bleak and bare. The fields of France, although they are beautiful to look at when they are under cultivation, are very unlovely when they are under mud. Just outside St. Omer there is a great big waste, which has been turned into a dump, and in that waste in December, 1919, there were motor lorries standing up to the axles in mud, new lorries and old lorries, in all kinds of conditions and all states of repair, and as the broken down lorries came in the old ones went out, and that was the condition there. What were we going to do in a position of that kind? It was wanted as a continual clearing house for motor cars and motor vehicles. If you had closed it in order to take a census of its population you would have had to form another dump close by. That would have meant more compensation to the French and more churning up of arable land. The only thing to do was to try to persuade someone to take it on as a speculation, and that was done with very good results, I do not think we should have heard so much about it if it had not been for the fact that Colonel Spurrier was employed in the negotiations. It so happens that he has two brothers who were directors of the company which eventually bought the dump. That is one reason why he was employed. He was employed by the Board because he had the particular knowledge which they wanted. I have been in charge of the textile section, because I happen to be a wool broker by trade and am supposed to know a little about it. Would it be fair to say that every transaction I went into, I went into it because I was an interested party? Here was a man with special knowledge and he used his special knowledge, and the mere fact that he had two brothers directors of the company which finally purchased the dump is a matter which the Committee ought to have dismissed from their minds. There is no mention of the fact that General Long, a director of Lever Brothers, was at one time Director of Supply and Transport at the War Office. We have never interfered that because he was Director of Transport at the War Office he had some particular knowledge of this dump which he wanted to use for the benefit of Lever Brothers. This thing has been used for political purposes, and the unfortunate fact that Colonel Spurrier had two brothers who happened to be interested in this transaction has been used for the purpose of party politics.
I want the Committee to remember—it cannot be emphasised too much—that the Ministry of Munitions through the Disposal Board has dealt with 350,000 different articles all over the world, from sewing machine needles to a tank, and from a gas helmet to an aeroplane. My hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Croft), who is now represented here by the remaining Member of his party (Sir E. Cooper), in the whole of his speech showed that lack of imagination which he has always shown, and he forgot to tell the Committee that practically 80 per cent. of the stores is unmarketable stuff. You cannot catalogue it. You cannot put it up to sale in the ordinary way. You have to use that personal influence which is so necessary in special transactions and go to a man and say, "Cannot I persuade you to buy this?" That is the only way you can get rid of it. When the War ended in November, 1918, we had sufficient stores in hand to carry on the War well into the following year. The War ended suddenly; the Armistice came along and these stores had to be disposed of. The nation clamoured for demobilisation of its army, and that is an important point not to be lost sight of. There was an immense difficulty in guarding all these places. There was an immense difficulty, because even if we had the men, the soldier, however excellent a man he may be for his military duties, is a bad policeman when he is surrounded by a clever population who have a particular facility for removing small things which are lying about. Supposing in that period some enterprising person had come along and offered the Government £250,000,000 for all these surplus stores and surplus raw material. Would they have accepted it? I think they would, and I think the House of Commons would have confirmed that offer. Instead of doing that the Ministry has realised £500,000,000 for its surplus stores and raw materials at a cost of 5 per cent. It has done a great more than that. Nearly every business man in this country has made a great mistake in the last few months. He has hung on to his stocks. The Ministry has sold at the top of the market. I hope the Committee will not forget that fact when they vote to-night.
I had not intended to take any part in this Debate, but the speeches delivered by the Attorney-General and the hon. Member for Barrow (Sir B. Chadwick) make it almost impossible for anyone who happened to be on the Sub-committee who investigated the Disposal Board to sit still and say nothing. We are accused of many things. I regret very much that one has to be in the House of Commons to be accused for the first time of being unduly prejudiced and almost of being untruthful. The Attorney-General administered a castigation to my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury), but as a member of the Sub-committee and of the Committee as a whole I think I can say on behalf of my colleagues that we desire to take our share of that castigation. We do not desire my right hon. Friend to take the entire responsibility. It appears to me that the Attorney-General read the Report in a way in which I at no time would have read it myself. He appeared to read it in a way only to suit his own purpose and in a way in which I do not think the ordinary individual or the man in the street could possibly have construed it. He appeared to look upon it as a Report of a rather venomous nature which was compiled to injure. I can most emphatically say that it was not the intention of the Committee to do anything of the sort. Their one idea was to try to get at the facts and arrive at the truth and give a proper Report to the House. I cannot help thinking that if the Attorney-General had been present at the meetings that we held he would have been satisfied that the whole matter was being carefully gone into by an unprejudiced body of men. If he had had an opportunity of studying the whole of the evidence, I can scarcely believe that he would have come to the conclusion to which he appears to have come, that this Report was conceived in a wrong spirit altogether and one which was really intended to injure rather than to serve the purpose for which it was drafted. He also expressed surprise that there had been no attempt in the Report to pay any generous recognition to all the men who had been engaged in the Ministry of Munitions during a period of great stress, especially at the Disposal Board. I do not think anyone would hesitate to pay their recognition to all those men who have been connected with the Ministry of Munitions. I have not the pleasure of the acquaintance of Lord Inverforth, but I do know by repute and from scores of gentlemen who have had very intimate dealings with him that he is an absolutely straightforward and honourable man, patriotic to a degree, and influenced by the desire to do nothing but serve his country to the best of his ability. For all that, he will not expect to be above criticism, if criticism is justly given.
All my colleagues will agree that the same applies to gentlemen like Sir Philip Dawson. We realise that he always made an honest effort to do the best he could, but at the same time we did not think the way in which the business had been carried out in certain instances was as satisfactory as it might have been. I attended practically every sitting of the Committee, In view of the rejoinder which came out I was very much concerned. I thought that possibly we had made a mistake, and I went most carefully through the evidence, not once or twice, but three times. I tried to convince myself that we had been right. I did not like to think that we had been wrong. Having gone carefully through the evidence, I could not possibly come to any other conclusion than that it was a fair and just Report. I attempted to look at things in a businesslike way. I realised the responsibility we had upon us. We were there in a very important position, and we had to give an absolutely fair and just judgment upon the evidence. I agreed with the Report, and I am quite certain that I shall not be accused of having been bamboozled into agreeing by the right hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury). I disagreed with him on many Amendments, as I am certain my colleagues will agree. I on many occasions thought that the Report was not quite correct, and begged for an alteration. After a little discussion the alteration was always agreed to readily. There were many alterations thus made in the Report. If a Select Committee is to do its duty it has to give an honest report, not wrapped up in any way to meet any particular circumstances. If any report other than that is given by a Select Committee it can be of no use at all. I wish this Committee could now be placed in possession of all the evidence taken before this Sub-Committee. If that were done I feel sure that, even if hon. Members did not agree with the Report, they would at least acquit the Committee of having done anything but its duty.
I wish to support the Motion for the reduction of the Vote. The amount is only £100,000, but I would remind the Committee that the Motion was entered on the Order Paper about last March and has remained there ever since. It is only a nominal sum. There has been no attempt to apportion what might be considered to be the loss sustained in these cases. The learned Attorney-General and the hon. and gallant Member for Waterloo (Lieut.-Colonel Buckley) spoke with very great emphasis of the fact that this Committee on National Expenditure has issued a report dealing with certain specific cases into which they have inquired, and they both complained that the Committee had not gone out of its way to express appreciation of what the Ministry of Munitions has done. There is a great misunderstanding as to what is the purpose of the Select Committee on National Expenditure. The terms of reference to it are:
"To examine the current expenditure defrayed out of money provided by Parliament and to recommend what, if any, economies consistent with the execution or the policy decided by the Government may be effected therein."
I understand from members of this Subcommittee that the Committee on National Expenditure appoints Subcommittees for the express purpose of inquiring into specific cases which they consider it in the public interest to investigate. When this Vote was last before the Committee, on 15th April, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Lieut.-Colonel Page Croft) and I stood alone in raising before the Committee the question of the St. Omar dump, and on a later occasion, I think early in June, when my hon. and gallant Friend tried to get the permission of the House to move the Adjournment in order to discuss the matter, Mr. Speaker said he understood the matter was under consideration by a Government Committee, and the Motion for the Adjournment could not, therefore, be granted. That one fact shows that the work of this Committee is special work for a specific purpose, and that is, to assist Members of this House to deal with matters which, from the very nature of the circumstances, it is obviously impossible for any individual to deal with. Those of us who in this House from time to time level accusations against the Government of extravagance are always met with the retort, "Where are your cases? Where is your evidence? Anyone can make wild statements." Even in face of what representatives of the Government have said to-day, no one can accuse my hon. and gallant Friend and myself of having made any wild statements on 15th April, so far as St. Omer is concerned. I agree with the hon. and gallant Member that where we have three Front Bench speeches very much at variance with one another as to what is believed to represent the real facts of the case, whilst there may be some good in diving deeply down into any specific cases, what we ought to do is to take a broader view of the whole matter. In that sense I want first of all to draw attention to paragraph 31, which has not been referred to this afternoon. There we learn the great difficulty under which the Disposal Board is compelled to work. I think every Member of this Committee will admit that any business man, whether on his own account or on behalf of the Government, would in selling goods get as the first thing a correct list, in order that he might judge to the best of his ability what was the highest price he could properly ask. Sir Philip Dawson, when asked why he had not got that list, said that it had to go through France, and in France had to go through another War Office Department there, and then it had to go to the Royal Air Force when it came back. It is, of course, human nature for those speaking for the Government Departments to try and defend those Departments, but I think it would give greater confidence to this Committee and to the public if matters like this were taken up, and if it were recognised that there was great difficulty on the part of officials in doing their duty in a proper manner. I am sure my hon. and gallant Friend (Lieut.-Colonel Buckley)) who is, I think, still a member of the Disposal Board, will not deny that the system under which that Board has to operate, as shown by this Report, is an unbusinesslike system, and one under which no man could do full justice to himself.
Can the hon. Gentleman give any instances?
The matter under discussion is one illustration, and we have the statement of one of the most important officials at the Ministry. Notwithstanding that, we are not given the least hope that any lessons are going to be learned by the Ministry in trying to get a better system. The hon. and gallant Member and the Attorney-General said that whilst people carp and criticise the Ministry for some little thing here and there they forgot that £300,000,000 worth or £500,000,000 worth of goods had been disposed of by the Ministry. We are quite aware of that. Our complaint is that the whole system under which that money has been obtained is a system which has not brought the greatest return to the revenue of this country. We want to raise every point, big or little, where we have got evidence, and never to lose an opportunity of forcing upon the Government these illustrations in the hope that they will lead to some reforms in the Department, and to the adoption of more business-like methods. The next general point, and one which has not been referred to, is the contract that has been made between Messrs. Leyland's and the Ministry of Munitions contained in Appendix 2. It is a Memorandum of Agreement, and the contract has not yet been signed. I am a business man, and I cannot conceive that there is any business man in the whole of the City of London who would say in reply to a telephone message, "Yes, I will pay £500,000 for what a Civil Servant tells me is at St. Omer, which I have not seen and of which I have no knowledge, and as to which I do not know that the goods will be produced." That forces me, though it is unpleasant to say it, to the firm conviction that there is some element of collusion in the transaction for the sale of the St. Omer dump. Otherwise there could be no justification for a prosperous firm like the Leyland Motor Company signing an agreement to purchase something that they had not seen, and when they did not know what it was composed of. The third general point on this Report is that one must leave aside what I call the little side issues. The broad allegation made by the Committee, as I understand, and certainly I would make it, is that the Leyland Motor Company paid £500,000 for something much more than was offered to Lever Brothers at £450,000, which Lever Brothers were willing to pay. In fact, the Leyland Motor Company were offered and did receive 287 extra lorries more than had been offered to Lever Brothers. That allegation, if it has any general basis of truth, simply means that in this particular transaction there has been a direct loss to the revenue of this country which ultimately the taxpayer has to make up. Let me try and indicate that something more might have been received than the amount actually paid. The Parliamentary Secretary told us that the Leyland Motor Company did not actually receive the total vehicles mentioned in the Report. They received 1,176 and arranged to sell everything else for £200,000.
They got £100,000.
9.0 P.M.
They paid £500,000 and that leaves a difference of £300,000. The Committee report that the Leyland Company had been in the habit of paying the Ministry £500 per vehicle, and that in their judgment that was not profitable to the taxpayer They paid £300,000 for 1,176 vehicles, and if they paid £500 each, that would mean £688,000 instead of £300,000, and there is a loss of £388,000, or, accepting the figure of the Parliamentary Secretary, a loss of £288,000. Then you have got to recollect the expense of sending the vehicles into this country, and there is another sum of from £15,000 to £18,000. I maintain, on the facts put before the Committee, the sale of the St. Omer dump to the Leyland Motor Company has involved the loss of over a quarter of a million of money to the revenue of this country, and which the taxpayers will be called on to make good There has been a great deal said about Colonel Spurrier. There is an old tradition in this House, that one should be very careful in any suggestions as to the motives which seem to have prompted people outside this House. But we have got to look at the evidence as we find it. We have got to ask why the Leyland Motor Company signed that extraordinary agreement to purchase something they had never seen, how it is that Colonel Spurrier 'phoned to the Leyland Company making the offer, after the Leader of the House has told us here he was never allowed to negotiate any sale amounting to over £5,000. We have got to remember, though it does not carry the slightest suggestion that there is anything wrong in what Colonel Spurrier did, that he was a director of the Leyland Company. I only mention that to lead to the next point, that after we have had presented to us this Report on the sale of Slough, and deducting all that may have been said by the supporters of the Ministry, Colonel Spurrier actually leaves the Ministry and goes to Slough to help in the administration there. This circumstantial evidence is very remarkable, and I do not think it leads to the fair conclusion that Colonel Spurrier's action in connection with these matters, and notably in connection with the St. Omer dump, is confined entirely to a gross piece of incompetency on his part.
In face of a Report like this, and making all the allowances which may fairly be put before us, there is something which is not right and that could be very much improved, and the country looks to the Government to make all the fair excuses they can, but then to search themselves for the directions in which they can improve matters, and do better in the future than they have done in the past. I deplore the atmosphere that has been created by the Government coming down here, denying this Report, finding fault with it, trying to denounce their own Committee, appointed and picked by them to investigate these matters, and sending to the Press, as they did on 9th July, a statement practically saying the Report is a tissue of lies, and then this afternoon trying to defend themselves and leading us to believe that the Ministry of Munitions have done everything in the most businesslike manner. They have done nothing of the sort, and I do not think there is a Member of this Committee who in his heart, even if he agrees broadly with the Government, would say there is no room for improvement and no lesson to learn. I have maintained in the country and in this House that there is something much more important to the country than the mere question of a Coalition policy or a Socialist policy. There is something fundamental to the success of any policy, and that is that we should learn our lesson from the administration of the War and realise that the system of the Civil Service in this country, which was very naturally utterly inadequate to carry the strain of the War, is inadequate to do the right and best thing in order to carry the policy of any Government to the very best fruition. I am one of those who believe that one of the first things the Government should do is to study the means by which we can reform the administration of the State, and the discussion we have had to-day is a very fair illustration of the advantages, in only one small direction, which would accrue year after year to this country if only this question of the administration of the State were taken seriously in hand and the best and most businesslike reforms instituted by the Government. I hope before long the Government will take an opportunity of really seeing to this matter.
Going on the Report itself—one cannot go on the evidence, because we have not had it—I submit with all deference that the Report contains certain statements that condemn it. I go to the end, and there I find that the Committee does not approve of the practice of selling to the makers. That is an extraordinary conclusion for ordinary business men to come to. The very reason you go to a maker is because you know he can afford to give you a better price than anybody else. There is no such thing as competition. There is hardly a frank auction in any market in this country, and the rarest possible thing is to get it. It is because you go to the makers that you get the best price, and you got the best price from the Leyland Company instead of Lever's, because they could afford to give you something better. Lever's could have got the very same contract as the Leyland Company got.
Were they offered it?
Yes, they got practically the same contract in all its terms; but I maintain that the shipping was done by Leyland's in the most businesslike way. To have suggested £75 per lorry for shipping, as was done by Lever's, was absurd. You could have got them across by air for that sum. If Lever's had taken their courage in their hands and made the offer of £500,000 made by the Leyland company, they would have got the contract, but it is definitely stated that they refused it, and refused to rise above £450,000. I have no criticism to make of the sincerity of the Committee, but I do not think they looked at this thing in a large enough fashion. They did not realise that it was one out of millions of transactions. If we consider the magnitude of these transactions, we should congratulate ourselves that we have had a Minister who has been able to dispose of £500,000,000 worth of goods in so brief a time. I was told by one of the leading valuers during the War that the whole value of London was something like £700,000,000. Just imagine what we might have said to a Minister who had been able to dispose of some of our principal cities. To unload in the market, without disturbance, these vast and immense stores in the way this Ministry has done is one of the biggest performances ever achieved. It is no use for the hon. Member to say there is no charge of corruption. There is no half-way house. The whole charge against Colonel Spurrier is a very absurd charge, in face of the facts. He went to Slough, of course, just because he was a first-class motor man, for the same reason he was taken on. If you approach a question with a poisoned mind, of course you are always able to find corrupt motives. It is no good to say you make no charge of corruption and then to suggest things which inevitably infer corruption. Yet we get no facts upon which any jury of fair-minded men could possibly evolve a charge of corruption, and the Committee themselves do not make that charge. In all the circumstances, I think the attack is wholly unjustified.
The Debate, so far, has been characterised by a large amount of vivid interest and also by the remarkable length of the speeches. I just wish to assure the Committee that, so far as I am concerned, I shall limit the remarks which I have to make to a very little over ten minutes. Discussion has really turned on the capability and responsibility of the Committee on the broad issue with which the Committee of this House has been mainly occupied to-day, and I wish, at the outset, to say two or three words on that point before I deal very briefly with an aspect of the matter which has not yet come under the notice of the Committee. The Attorney-General in his speech characterised the effort of my right hon. Friend—who temporarily occupied a position on this Bench with a degree of efficiency which, I am sure, was an example to those of us who sit here—as a deplorable speech on a deplorable case. There may have been one or two points in my right hon. Friend's speech which laid him open to criticism by so expert an advocate as the Attorney-General, but I am speaking within the recollection of a large number of Members who listened to that speech, and I am quite sure that, notwithstanding one or two points which were open to criticism, it carried conviction to the large majority of those who listened to it. I am a very close observer of this House, and I think I am not a bad judge of when you get the House with you and when you do not, and I say, in my deliberate opinion, that my right hon. Friend carried a large majority of the Committee with him in the statement of the case which he made. Why was that? For this reason, amongst others. He was voicing a unanimous report of a group of Members, every one of whom carries the confidence and respect of the House with him. I have listened to nearly all the speeches to-day, but I wish there had been a larger number of Members present to hear the speech which was made by the hon. and gallant Member for Howdenshire (Lieut.-Colonel Jackson), who was a Member of that Committee. Anybody, who listened to what has been said, could not help but feel deeply interested by the statement he made, and for the benefit of those Members who were not present I will sum it up. What he said was this: First of all, they saw the witnesses, which is an important thing. He further said that there were constant discussions between himself and other Members of the Committee with the Chairman, and everything was conducted in a most friendly and frank manner. Points were raised, and there was no point urged by the Chairman in connection with the drafting of the final Report with which he did not fully and entirely agree. After full consideration of everything he had heard and everything he had read, he came to the conclusion that it was a fair Report and a correct Report.
That was a very remarkable testimony, which was backed up by every other hon. Member of the Committee who spoke. I do not wonder that the Government, feeling the weight of testimony which was behind that Report, put up one of the most brilliant Advocates, in my opinion, who has ever been at the English Bar. I have heard him a good many times, and certainly he is one of the most powerful and able colleagues of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. He did his best to shake the case put forward by my right hon. Friend, and again I say that, while this very complex case necessarily left several points open to attack, the main position, so far as I can judge, was left unshaken. That is the opinion I formed, and, I think, the majority of this Committee formed. What does that Report really amount to? I am not going into details. It really amounts to this, that the Ministry was not doing its work efficiently, and that condemnation has been arrived at after a most careful inquiry by honest, able, truth-seeking men, representative of all parties in the House.
That leads me to deal with one point in which I am specially interested. I take the most paternal interest in the question of Slough. I raised it in the very early stages of the first Session of this Parliament, when we on this side of the House were fighting under altogether exceptional difficulties, and, therefore, I have a very vivid recollection of the rather trying experience. But I assert that the charges we then made have been fully justified by all the experience which has come to light since. There was no clear line of policy about Slough. It was one thing one time and another thing another. At last they wind up in April of this year with the declaration that it was a good bargain. Time alone will show that. After the statements and confusions of the Minister, can there arise anything but the very gravest doubt as to whether that claim is at all justified? What Happened last time this particular Vote was before the Committee, and this is the last point with which I shall deal? On the last occasion when this Estimate was before the Committee, after pressure from this side of the House, backed up by other hon. Members of the House, the Government very rightly and properly withdrew the Estimate. Why? They tell us here in the first paragraph of the Memorandum that they withdrew the Estimate because, as their spokesman, the hon. Gentleman opposite, very frankly admitted in the course of Debate, while they were asking for a full year's expenses they proposed to wind up the Ministry about July.
No, I did not.
That was what was said—somewhere about July; that they were going to begin to wind up and they did not, therefore, require——
If I remember rightly what I said was that I hoped that by July the revised Estimate might be presented giving the expenditure for the various Departments of the Ministry of Munitions, or whoever might take its place—I did not say it would be wound up.
I will read exactly what is said here:
"The Government had decided not to establish a Ministry of Supply"——
Yes.
The lynch-pin of the whole thing is gone——
"and to transfer certain functions exercised by the Ministry of Munitions to other Government Departments."
Quite so!
I might have been a little mistaken in my recollection about the words used, but certainly the idea that was left in my mind was that of winding up some time about July. What is the position to-day? The right hon. Gentleman, in presenting the Estimate, said there were two purposes only left for the Department. The one was the liquidation of certain contracts, the other referred to the work of the Disposal Board. Those certain works, as he told us, would not take more than two or three months——
That is so.
It is quite clear that the Disposal Board have a fairly large job still before them. The point I want to make is this: that only those two functions are left, that all these other great Depart- ments were now disposed of by handing them over to other Government Departments. Where are we? For instance, the War Office take the whole question of stores and ordnance. The question of the purchase of building materials is transferred to the Ministry of Health, although the Department is carrying the financial part of it in this Vote. One or two other matters are also transferred to other Departments. What, then, is the Department asking for? Here is the point. What sum are they asking for? They are asking this year no less a sum than £31,300,000 to carry on. Appropriations-in-aid reduce it by £12,300,000. They are asking a net sum of £19,003,000. They have already had £12,000,000 on account. The Vote to be put from the Chair will be for the balance of £7,000,000. The real expenditure for the current year under the revised Estimate for a Department that has only these two functions left to it is £31,300,000! That is an important matter. This Department is apparently working with far less efficiency than it could fairly be expected to do. That is a rather serious matter. My hon. and gallant Friend below the gangway (Lieut.-Colonel Croft) moved a reduction of £100,000. If the matter had been left to me, what I should have preferred to do would be to move a reduction of about £2,500,000, to give the Department four months more to carry on, and then for it to come back again to the House, say, about 1st December, and seek for further powers, after we know what they have done in the interval. That would have been a business thing to do. Then the House could have exercised control over it. As we know perfectly well, this Motion for reduction will be beaten, and many will troop into the Lobby who have not heard a single word of the Debate, but there it is: it is a lack of confidence in the Ministry as a whole.
Why in the name of all that is businesslike does this Department, with these two functions only left, require for its headquarters staff the provision of £1,290,000; for its outside staff, central stores, £1,271,000? Why does it require under its liquidation of ministry production, mark you, expenses which are incurred in the sales, large sales I have no doubt—£21,000,000 and odd pounds? It really passes my comprehension. What are these men going to do? In what manner are they going to carry on these two functions still left? Really it is an extraordinary thing. On the top of that, by way of check on them, they have a Finance Department. This Finance Department consists of 550 officials, of whom 386 are accountants and assistants, and 145 administrative assistants at a total cost of £370,100. The Estimate which the Government are asking this Committee to give them to-night is for a Ministry in full blast. By their own statement they are carrying out their liquidation as speedily as they can. I do not know what is going to happen if they are going on at this rate. But we all know what happens! Experience has taught us to know that you have these Government Departments going on, and here is a clear instance: nothing could be clearer! Is this Committee going to hand over to this Ministry huge sums of money which they cannot possibly want, even for administration on a most generous scale, for the task they have in hand? I hope and trust the Committee, though this Vote will doubtless be carried by a majority, will go into the Lobby in opposition, sufficient in number really to give a note of warning to the Government that the limit is about reached with regard to sums of money which this House is prepared to put at the disposal of a Department whose record commands no real confidence and whose transactions are condemned by the Report which we now have before us, unanimously come to by a body of Members of this House, and which carries not only the weight but the responsibility of their opinions.
I will deal first of all with the point made in regard to the advocacy of my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General, who was brought in to deal with this subject. That is a curious complaint. In every Government with which I have been acquainted, the Law Officer is always supposed to be available to assist the Leader of the House in circumstances outside those of his ordinary Department. I was not myself going to make a speech, but was going to ask my right hon. Friend to do so. As the Debate has lasted so long, I think it is my duty, as representing the Government in this House, to say something in defence of public officers, who, in my opinion, are serving the State with great skill and ability. I sympathise with the feeling of this Committee that the Members of a Committee selected by itself should be treated fairly. That, I think, is the least Members who give their services should expect from this House, but I would ask, even the Members of that Committee, or my right hon. Friend himself, when he makes an appeal for fair play on that ground, is it not the duty of this House to see that at least equal consideration and equal fair play are given to men who are not inside the House, but who are just as honestly trying to serve the State in the way they best can?
I would ask the Committee to look at the names of the gentlemen who serve on the Disposal Board. They are in this Report, and I do not think it is necessary for me to read them. They are extremely well-known in the business world. Two or three of them are Members of this House. I do not think there is one of them whose name in connection with any business enterprise would not command respect, and be regarded as a proof that the business was well done. There are nearly a dozen of them. There is hardly one of them who could, by any possibility, be induced to serve the State by any salary which the State could pay them. They are in the position in which no salary could reward them. I ask the House to bear in mind that, apart altogether from any question of morality and honesty, these men are as sensitive to charges of any kind of inefficiency or anything else as any Member of this House, and should be considered just as carefully by every Member as should be one of our own Members.
I am not going to take up a great deal of time with an examination of the points raised. I was myself Chancellor of the Exchequer when this Select Committee was set up. I Set it up, and was glad to do so. We were spending an immense sum of money. It could not be properly controlled by the Treasury, and I was anxious to get the assistance of this House in giving us hints as to the way in which public money could be saved. The first Chairman of the Committee was Sir Herbert Samuel. He was an avowed opponent of the Government, but he had a sense of responsibility, and every Report while I was Chancellor of the Exchequer which came under his Chairmanship seemed to me absolutely fair. The moment I received it, I had it examined by officials of the Treasury, and I tried to make practical use of it for the purpose for which the Committee had been set up. I am sure my right hon. Friend (Sir F. Banbury) will realise that I have no animosity against him. He is very useful to the Government on many occasions, but I cannot say that, in my opinion, this Report is a fair report. That has been dealt with so completely by the Attorney-General that I shall refer to only one or two incidents in connection with it before I speak on the bigger subject of the way in which this business is done.
I heard my right hon. Friend's interruption about the Abbeville dump. I did not in the least understand it. When I read this Report, which I did before I read the comments upon, it, I came to a paragraph which seemed to say that this business was done in such a way that the Ministry actually threw in as a pourboire, as it were, the Abbeville dump, representing £500,000, without receiving anything except the general share of profits in it. I asked Lord Inverforth to come to see me about it, and he said: "It is all nonsense. There is not a word of truth in it. If the dump had not been so included, the price would have been £400,000 or £500,000 less." I cannot understand how anyone could put a thing like that in a Report when it is not true. It bears the suggestion not only of carelessness, but of absolute idiocy of which any Government Department or any man ought to be ashamed. I should like to have an explanation of that if there be one.
I have already given the explanation. I have not the slightest objection to the right hon. Gentleman saying my Committee is of no importance. That is a matter of opinion. What I do object to is the charge that I have been saying something which is untrue. As a matter of fact, what we, have done in this Report is to take from the contract exactly what happened about Abbeville Park. Our intention was and is to show to the House and to the public that when Slough was sold, included in the £7,000,000 was Abbeville Park, for which no extra price was charged.
That is not the fact.
It is the fact.
It is not.
It was included in the £7,000,000.
It shows the way in which this Report was prepared. I think it is monstrous. Let me read what it says:
"This would appear to include the property at Abbeville Park in the sale without any further payment except as provided in paragraph 18,"——
that is, the share of the profits. I have seen this afternoon Mr. Neylan, who gave evidence before the Committee. I have not seen his evidence. That is one of the peculiarities of this matter. The Committee is discussing this without seeing the evidence. Mr. Neylan tells me he made it absolutely plain to the Committee that had Abbeville Park not been included, the price would have been reduced by the value of that amount.
That is exactly what I said. I said in the £7,000,000 Abbeville Park was included.
My right hon. Friend really cannot ride off like that. The words are: to Leyland Brothers for £500,000. They had already offered it to one firm for £500,000. It had been refused, and is it not quite obvious that they would be very well pleased if they could have got another firm to take it at the same price?
I come to the statement that the dump was different. The facts are stated in this Report. The deal with both these firms was based on a list prepared in December. Both firms were told that there was no guarantee that the list was accurate, and that they must both take their chance. The firm which did not get the order had its own agent examining the goods all the time. I wish hon. Members to realise that a Committee of that kind, which was a general Committee, must depend largely on the Report presented by the Chairman for its facts, and they cannot go into every Sub-committee individually. What are the facts? It was their business to find out what was really in the dump, and what was the way to do it? Would any business man trying to find that out without prejudice not at once send to the Leyland Motor Company, and ask them what the facts were, and cross-examine them? The right hon. Gentleman could have had this firm before him, and he might have cross-examined them. They say that the number in the Report was all wrong, and as a matter of fact it was considerably less. They also say that they sold the other vehicles, which were not Leyland vehicles, for £200,000, and when they examined the dump they found that they were much fewer and that, instead of getting £200,000, they found they could only get £100,000. That, however, was one of the things that they ought to have found out.
We said that the Leyland motor lorries included in the sale were to the value of £114,000 more than was included in the offer to Lever Brothers, and our authority for that was the evidence of the officer in charge. We read the evidence to Sir Philip Dawson and he agreed with it, and did not contradict it, and it was the officer in charge who told us that other motor vehicles were shoved in during the last 14 days.
It was stated that a few were taken away, but Leyland Brothers say that there were £100,000 Jess. The right hem. Gentleman is say- ing all this in regard to a firm which he never saw and never cross-examined.
Does the right hon. Gentleman say that, after their statement that they had not asked for shipping, they would say anything?
Because they had sent a note in which they stated that they did not want any facilities for shipping, as they had already made arrangements with a private firm, when all the time we had the evidence of Sir Philip Dawson that they had been to him, and said that they could not get the motors across, and he appealed to the Minister of Shipping to give him facilities.
I have not time now, or I would gladly deal with that point, because my right hon. Friend is as inaccurate there as he is on the other points. The right hon. Gentleman had the chance of cross-examining this firm. He did not do it. Then he makes a charge on the floor of the House of Commons which he would not make elsewhere. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] I shall not withdraw. This Committee is not a Star Chamber, and is it not to be open to criticism if it makes mistakes? I do say that my right hon. Friend has no right to make a charge of that kind here. As a matter of fact, I am told by the men who are selling these materials that the fact that that kind of charge is made is having the result that respectable firms are not willing to come in and buy from the Government, because of the charges made. It has been asked, "Why did we set up the Committee V My reply is that we had in view that it would help the Government to save expense. That is why we set it up. They have not succeeded.
When I was Chancellor of the Exchequer, I appointed Lord Inverforth, then Mr. Andrew Weir, to inquire into contracts for the War Office and the Admiralty, and I believed then, as I believe now, that he saved this country scores of millions of pounds. I want to submit this, that if a Committee make mistakes, if it make statements which are obviously inaccurate, it must bear the blame for it as much as anybody else. It cannot claim special privileges because it was appointed by the Government. Would any Member of this House defend quoting on the floor of the House a private telephone conversation, without; telling the names of the people between whom it occurred, or the date of the incident, and without giving those against whom it was directed an opportunity of seeing the evidence on which it was based. Is it fair to do such a thing? My right hon. Friend must feel that it is unfair. Can anyone defend this: The Ministry of Munitions is, I will not say attacked, but criticised in this Report. They asked for the evidence on which they are criticised, and it was not given them. Will the members of the General Committee say if it was refused with their knowledge and approval?
Yes, I put it to them, and they agreed to it.
I do not think they could have understood the point. Is it fair that when a man is attacked, he should not be allowed to see the evidence on which the attack is based?
They had it.
They told me otherwise.
Then they did not tell the right hon. Gentleman the truth. They had the evidence.
They asked for it, and were refused.
I want to have it published.
And so do I. This is what I want to impress upon the Committee. This business of the Disposal Board is the biggest business which was ever done in the world. During the whole time I have been in this House it has been the constant criticism when dealing with business transactions that Civil Servants cannot carry them through, because they are always afraid of taking any step outside the routine, lest they be condemned. What happened here in connection with this Disposal Board? Let me tell the Committee that business can be done on a big scale or on a small scale, and there may be small successes, but big successes are never secured by people with small minds. Lord Inver-forth had an immense amount of stuff to dispose of. He saw me about it, and, in talking over the situation, he said, "We are on the top of the market. It is my business to sell everything I can before the market falls." He devoted his whole energy to doing that, and there is not man in this House who knows anything about business who will not say that it would be utterly impossible now to repeat the transactions which the right hon. Gentleman has been criticising.
Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £6,903,000, be granted for the said Service."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 75; Noes, 228.
Division No. 279.] AYES. [10.0 p.m. Atkey, A. R. Glanville, Harold James Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Molson, Major John Elsdale Banbury, Rt. Hon. sir Frederick G. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Barker, Major Robert H. Gretton, Colonel John Myers, Thomas Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Gritten, W. G. Howard Newbould, Alfred Ernest Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Grundy, T. W. O'Grady, Captain James Betterton, Henry B. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Gwynne, Rupert S. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Raffan, Peter Wilson Bromfield, William Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Remnant, Sir James Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Rendall, Athelstan Cairns, John Hirst, G. H. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Cautley, Henry S. Hogge, James Myles Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Holmes, J. Stanley Robertson, John Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Johnstone, Joseph Royce, William Stapleton Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Sexton, James Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Sitch, Charles H. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Entwistle, Major C. F. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Spencer, George A. Galbraith, Samuel Lunn, William Swan, J. E. Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Lieut.-Colonel Page Croft and Mr. Rose. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Wintringham, T. Waterson, A. E. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Wedgwood, Colonel J. C.
NOES. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Percy, Charles Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Gregory, Holman Perkins, Walter Frank Ainsworth, Captain Charles Greig, Colonel James William Perring, William George Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Baird, Sir John Lawrence Hailwood, Augustine Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by) Preston, W. R. Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Prescott, Major W. H. Barlow, Sir Montague Hanna, George Boyle Pulley, Charles Thornton Barnett, Major R. W. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Purchase, H. G. Barnston, Major Harry Harris, Sir Henry Percy Rae, H. Norman Barrie, Charles Coupar Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Raeburn, Sir William H. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East). Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Reid, D. D. Bennett, Thomas Jewell Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Bigland, Alfred Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hood, Joseph Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Rodger, A. K. Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Rogers, Sir Hallewell Blair, Reginald Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Borwick, Major G. O. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Royden, Sir Thomas Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Bowles, Colonel H. F. Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Brassey, Major H. L. C. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Breese, Major Charles E. Jameson, J. Gordon Seddon, J. A. Bridgeman, William Clive Jephcott, A. R. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Broad, Thomas Tucker Jesson, C. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Brown, Captain D. C Jodrell, Neville Paul Simm, M. T. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Stanton, Charles B. Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) King, Captain Henry Douglas Stewart, Gershom Butcher, Sir John George Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Strauss, Edward Anthony Campbell, J. D. G. Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Sturrock, J. Leng Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Carr, W. Theodore Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Sutherland, Sir William Casey, T. W. Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Lloyd, George Butler Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Lorden, John William Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Lort-Williams, J. Tickler, Thomas George Clough, Robert Loseby, Captain C. E. Tryon, Major George Clement Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Lowe, Sir Francis William Turton, E. R. Cohen, Major J. Brunei Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Vickers, Douglas Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Waddington, R. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Wallace, J. Courthope, Major George L. Macmaster, Donald Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Curzon, Commander Viscount McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Waring, Major Walter Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Macquisten, F. A. Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Dawes, James Arthur Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Dennis, J.W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Matthews, David Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Doyle, N. Grattan Middlebrook, Sir William Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Edge, Captain William Mitchell, William Lane Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Morden, Colonel H. Grant Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Falls, Major Sir Bertram G. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Farquharson, Major A. C. Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Fell, Sir Arthur Morrison, Hugh Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak) Flannery, Sir James Fortescue Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Woolcock, William James U. Foreman, Henry Murchison, C. K. Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Forrest, Walter Murray, John (Leeds, West) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Neal, Arthur Yeo, Sir Alfred William Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Oman, Sir Charles William C. Younger, Sir George Gilbert, James Daniel O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Goff, Sir R. Park Parker, James Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward. Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.)
Original Question again proposed.
It being after Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote under consideration.
Question put, and agreed to,
"That a sum, not exceeding £7,003,000 be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Munitions."
The CHAIRMAN then proceeded, pursuant to Order No. 15, to put severally the Questions: That the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the several classes of the Civil Services Estimates and of the other outstanding Votes, including Supplementary Estimates, and the total amounts of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, Army, Air Force and Revenue Departments, and the Civil Services and Navy Excess Votes, be granted for the Services denned in those Classes and Estimates.
Civil Services and Revenue Departments Estimates, 1920–21
Class I
"1. That a sum, not exceeding £6,726,387, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921,
for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class I of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
£ 1. Royal Palaces 78,000 2. Osborne 14,075 3. Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens 143,700 4. Houses of Parliament Buildings 106,100 5. Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain 51,500 6. Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain 165,500 7. Diplomatic and Consular Buildings 194,400 8. Revenue Buildings 931,200 9. Employment Exchange and Insurance Buildings, Great Britain (including Ministries of Labour and Health) 659,700 10. Public Buildings, Great Britain (including a Supplementary sum of £315,000) 2,808,300 10A. Whitehall Cenotaph 4,700 11. Surveys of the United Kingdom 160,625 12. Harbours under the Ministry of Transport 66,626 13. Peterhead Harbour 22,000 14. Rates on Government Property 918,600 15. Public Works and Buildings, Ireland 357,307 16. Railways, Ireland 44,054 £6,726,387"
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 265; Noes, 53.
Division No. 280.] AYES. [10.10 p.m. Adair, Roar-Admiral Thomas B. S. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. sir A. Griffith- Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Bowles, Colonel H. F. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Courthope, Major George L. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Brassey, Major H L. C. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Breese, Major Charles E. Curzon, Commander Viscount Atkey, A. R. Bridgeman, William Clive Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Broad, Thomas Tucker Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Brown, Captain D. C. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Barker, Major Robert H. Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Dawes, James Arthur Barlow, Sir Montague Butcher, Sir John George Dennis, J.W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Campbell, J. D. G. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Barnett, Major R. W. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Doyle, N. Grattan Barnston, Major Harry Carr, W. Theodore Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Barrie, Charles Coupar Casey, T. W. Edge, Captain William Beckett, Hon. Gervase Cautley, Henry S. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Elveden, viscount Bennett, Thomas Jewell Chadwick, Sir Robert Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Betterton, Henry B. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Fade, Major Sir Bertram G. Bigland, Alfred Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Farquharson, Major A. C. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Fell, Sir Arthur Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Clough, Robert Foreman, Henry Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Forrest, Walter Blair, Reginald Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Borwick, Major G. O. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Fraser, Major Sir Keith Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Ganzoni, Captain Francis John. C. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Rodger, A. K. Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Rogers, Sir Hallewell Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Lorden, John William Rounded, Colonel R. F. Gilbert, James Daniel Lort-Williams, J. Royden, Sir Thomas Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Loseby, Captain C. E. Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Glyn, Major Ralph Lowe, Sir Francis William Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Goff, Sir R. Park M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Seddon, J. A. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Macmaster, Donald Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry M'Micking, Major Gilbert Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Macnamara, Rt. Hon.-Dr. T. J. Simm, M. T. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Gregory, Holman Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Greig, Colonel James William Macquisten, F. A. Stanton, Charles B. Gretton, Colonel John Mallalieu, F. W. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Gritten, W. G. Howard Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Stewart, Gershom Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Matthews, David Strauss, Edward Anthony Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Middlebrook, Sir William Sturrock, J. Leng Gwynne, Rupert S. Mitchell, William Lane Sugden, W. H. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Molson, Major John Elsdale Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Hailwood, Augustine Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Sutherland, Sir William Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liv'p'l,W.D'by) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Morden, Colonel H. Grant Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chlch'st'r) Hanna, George Boyle Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Harris, Sir Henry Percy Morrison, Hugh Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Murchison, C. k. Tickler, Thomas George Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Tryon, Major George Clement Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Neal, Arthur Turton, E. R. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Vickers, Douglas Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Waddington, R. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Wallace, J. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Hood, Joseph Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Parker, James Waring, Major Walter Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Williams, Lieut.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Percy, Charles Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Perkins, Walter Frank Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Perring, William George Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Jameson, J. Gordon Pollock, sir Ernest M. Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Jephcott, A. R. Preston, W. R. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Jesson, C. Prescott, Major W. H. Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Jodrell, Neville Paul Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Pulley, Charles Thornton Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Purchase, H. G. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Rae, H. Norman Yeo, Sir Alfred William Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Raeburn, Sir William H. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) King, Captain Henry Douglas Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Reid, D. D. Younger, Sir George Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Remnant, Sir James Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Mr. Dudley Ward and Lieut.-Colonel Sir R. Sanders. Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Lloyd, George Butler Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor)
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Johnstone, Joseph Royce, William Stapleton Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Sexton, James Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kenyon, Barnet Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Kiley, James D. Sitch, Charles H. Bromfield, William Lunn, William Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Spencer, George A. Cairns, John Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.) Swan, J. E. Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Croft, Lieut.-Colonel Henry Page Myers, Thomas Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Waterson, A. E. Entwistle, Major C. F. O'Grady, Captain James Wedgwood, Colonel J. C. Galbraith, Samuel Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Glanville, Harold James Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Raffan, Peter Wilson Wintringham, T. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Rendall, Athelstan Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Grundy, T. W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hirst, G. H. Robertson, John Mr. Hogge and Mr. G. Thorne. Holmes, J. Stanley Rose, Frank H.
Class II
"2. That a sum, not exceeding £7,840,335, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class II. of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
£ 1. House of Lords Offices 36,381 2. House of Commons 234,534 2A. Cabinet Offices 20,525 3. Treasury and Subordinate Departments 188,960 4. Home Office 242,950 5. Foreign Office 101,052 6. Colonial Office 169,810 7. Privy Council Office 8,894 8. Board of Trade 1,270,501 8A. Department of Overseas Trade 234,899 9. Mercantile Marine Services 168,840 10. Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade 31,301 10A. Forestry Commission 229,000 11. Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries (Supplementary sum). 1,195,000 12. Charity Commission 23,270 13. Government Chemist 25,898 14. Civil Service Commission 38,257 14A. Civil Service Arbitration Board 1,819 15. Exchequer and Audit Department 79,400 16. Friendly Societies Registry 24,810 17. Government Actuary 20,549 18. Board of Control, England 172,786 19. The Mint 6 20. National Debt Office 12,430 21. Public Record Office 21,850 22. Public Works Loan Commission 11 23. Registrar General's Office, England 51,823 24. Stationery and Printing. 2,344,104 25. Office of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues 20,623 26. Office of Works and Public Buildings 287,500 26A. Privy Seal Office 3,600
Scotland. £ 31. General Board of Control 34,007 32. Registrar General's Office 8,453 Ireland. 33. Household of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland 2,739 34. Chief Secretary for Ireland (Supplementary sum) 19,100 35. Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction 351,257 36. Charitable Donations and Bequests Office 1,533 37. Congested Districts Board for Ireland 69,750 38. Public Record Office 7,337 39. Public Works Office 41,784 40. Registrar General's Office 11,553 41. Valuation and Boundary Survey 31,439 £7,840,335"
Question put.
May we have some information as to what is contained in these Votes? I have enquired at the Vote office but cannot get any information. The only person who has information as to how the sums are made up is yourself.
The hon. Member has had, as other hon. Members have, particulars of the Civil Service Estimates in the early part of the session.
We have not had these Estimates. They are revised. They are not the same figures we have had before. They have been altered and we do not know what they are.
The alterations have been circulated.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 265; Noes, 51.
Division No. 281.] AYES. [10.22 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Bigland, Alfred Carr, W. Theodore Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Casey, T. W. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Cautley, Henry S. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Blair, Reginald Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Atkey, A. R. Berwick, Major G. O. Chadwick, Sir Robert Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Baird, Sir John Lawrence Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bowles, Colonel H. F. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Balfour, George (Hampstead) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Clough, Robert Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Brassey, Major H. L. C. Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Barker, Major Robert H. Breese, Major Charles E. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Barlow, Sir Montague Bridgeman, William Clive Cohen, Major J. Brunel Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Broad, Thomas Tucker Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Barnett, Major R. W. Brown, Captain D. C. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Barnston, Major Harry Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Courthope, Major George L. Barrie, Charles Coupar Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Curzon, Commander Viscount Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Butcher, Sir John George Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Bennett, Thomas Jewell Campbell, J. D. G. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Betterton, Henry B. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Jodrell, Neville Paul Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Dawes, James Arthur Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Reid, D. D. Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Remnant, Sir James Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Doyle, N. Grattan Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring King, Captain Henry Douglas Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Edge, Captain William Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Rodger, A. K. Elveden, Viscount Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Rogers, Sir Hallewell Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Lloyd, George Butler Royden, Sir Thomas Farquharson, Major A. C. Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Fell, Sir Arthur Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Foreman, Henry Lorden, John William Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Forrest, Walter Lort-Williams, J. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Loseby, Captain C. E. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Lowe, Sir Francis William Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Simm, M. T. Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Stanton, Charles B. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Mackinder, Sir H. J (Camlachie) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Gilbert, James Daniel Macmaster, Donald Stewart, Gershom Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John M'Micking, Major Gilbert Strauss, Edward Anthony Glyn, Major Ralph Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Sturrock, J. Leng Goff, Sir R. Park McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Sugden, W. H. Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Macquisten, F. A. Sutherland, Sir William Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Mallalieu, F. W. Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Matthews, David Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Gregory, Holman Middlebrook, Sir William Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Greig, Colonel James William Mitchell, William Lane Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Gretton, Colonel John Molson, Major John Elsdale Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Gritten, W. G. Howard Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Tickler, Thomas George Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Tryon, Major George Clement Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Morden, Colonel H. Grant Turton, E. R. Gwynne, Rupert S. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Vickers, Douglas Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Waddington, R. Hailwood, Augustine Morrison, Hugh Wallace, J. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by) Mosley, Oswald Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Hanna, George Boyle Murchison, C. K. Waring, Major Walter Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Neal, Arthur Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Williams, Lieut.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Hood, Joseph Pennefather, De Fonblanque Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Percy, Charles Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Perkins, Walter Frank Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Perring, William George Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Yeo, Sir Alfred William Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Preston, W. R. Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Prescott, Major W. H. Younger, Sir George Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pulley, Charles Thornton TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Jameson, J. Gordon Purchase, H. G. Major Stanley and Mr. Parker. Jephcott, A. R. Rae, H. Norman Jesson, C. Raeburn, Sir William H.
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Hirst, G. H. Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Hogge, James Myles Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Bromfield, William Holmes, J. Stanley Raffan, Peter Wilson Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Johnstone, Joseph Rendall, Athelstan Cairns, John Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Kenyon, Barnet Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Kiley, James D. Robertson, John Entwistle, Major C. F. Lunn, William Rose, Frank H. Galbraith, Samuel Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Royce, William Stapleton Glanville, Harold James Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.) Sexton, James Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Myers, Thomas Sitch, Charles H. Grundy, T. W. Newbould, Alfred Ernest Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) O'Grady, Captain James Spencer, George A. Swan, J. E. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Thomas, Lieut.-Col. Sir O. (Anglesey) Wintringham, T. Mr. G. Thorne and Mr. Tyson Wilson. Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Waterson, A. E. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Wedgwood, Colonel J. C.
Class III
"3. That a sum, not exceeding £12,053,283, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending an the 31st day of March, 1921, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class III. of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
£ 1. Law Charges 180,991 2. Miscellaneous Legal Expenses 22,040 3. Supreme Court of Judicature, etc. 292,714 4. Land Registry 51,292 5. Public Trustee 5 6. County Courts 209,145 7. Police (England and Wales) 5,048,252 8. Prisons, England and the Colonies 757,300 9. Reformatory and Industrial Schools, England and Wales 246,588 10. Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum 36,631 Scotland. 11. Law Charges and Courts of Law 101,318 12. Scottish Land Court 7,480 13A. Police 400,250 14. Prisons 135,824 14A. Reformatory and Industrial Schools 75,220 Ireland. 15. Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions (including a Supplementary sum of £11,545) 51,499 16. Supreme Court of Judicature, etc. 112,759 17. Irish Land Commission 558,763 18. County Court Officers, etc. 99,722 19. Dublin Metropolitan Police 185,250
£ 20. Royal Irish Constabulary (including a Supplementary sum of £1,268,361) £ 3,270,614 21. Prisons 123,448 22. Reformatory and Industrial Schools 76,951 23. Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum 9,227 £12,053,283"
Question put.
On a point of Order. May we be told on what the Committee is voting? Not one of us has the least idea.
May I ask that we should not be called upon to vote more than £12,000,000 of the taxpayers' money without knowing the particular items included in this particular class? That is all we ask.
I am acting in pursuance of the Standing Order. Hon. Members have been presented with the several Estimates and can inform themselves.
Is it not a fact that the Estimates have been altered since they were presented to us?
In the altered form they have been presented to hon. Members.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 265 Noes, 50.
Division No. 282.] AYES. [10.33 p.m.] Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Blair, Reginald Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Borwick, Major G. O. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Ainsworth, Captain Charles Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold, C. M. S. Bowles, Colonel H. F. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Atkey, A. R. Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Brassey, Major H. L. C. Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Baird, Sir John Lawrence Breese, Major Charles E. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Bridgeman, William Clive Courthope, Major George L. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Broad, Thomas Tucker Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Brown, Captain D. C. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Barlow, Sir Montague Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Curzon, Commander Viscount Barnett, Major R. W. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) Barnston, Major Harry Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Barrie, Charles Coupar Butcher, Sir John George Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Campbell, J. D. C. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Carr, w. Theodore Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S) Bennett, Thomas Jewell Casey, T. W. Dawes, James Arthur Betterton, Henry B. Cautley, Henry S. Dennis, J.W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Bigland, Alfred Cecil, Rt Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Birchall, Major J. Dearman Chadwick, Sir Robert Doyle, N. Grattan Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Edge, Captain William Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Elveden, Viscount Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Lloyd, George Butler Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Farquharson, Major A. C. Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Rodger, A. K. Fell, Sir Arthur Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Rogers, Sir Hallewell Foreman, Henry Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Forrest, Walter Lorden, John William Royden, Sir Thomas Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Lort-Williams, J. Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Fraser, Major Sir Keith Loseby, Captain C. E. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lowe, Sir Francis William Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Lyle-Samuel, Alexander Seddon, J. A. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Gilbert, James Daniel Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John M'Micking, Major Gilbert Simm, M. T. Glyn, Major Ralph Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Goff, Sir R. Park M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Stanton, Charles B. Grant, James A. Macquisten, F. A. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Mallalieu, F. W. Stewart, Gershom Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Strauss, Edward Anthony Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Matthews, David Sturrock, J. Leng Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir w. (Hack'y, N.) Middlebrook, Sir William Sugden, W. H. Gregory, Holman Mitchell, William Lane Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Greig, Colonel James William Molson, Major John Elsdale Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Gretton, Colonel John Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Gritten, W. G. Howard Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Talbot, G. A. (Kernel Hempstead) Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Morden, Colonel H. Grant Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Gwynne, Rupert S. Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Morrison, Hugh Tickler, Thomas George Hailwood, Augustine Mosley, Oswald Tryon, Major George Clement Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Turton, E. R. Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Murray, John (Leeds, West) Vickers, Douglas Hanna, George Boyle Neal, Arthur Waddington, R. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wallace, J. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Morris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Waring, Major Walter Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovill Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Warren, Lieut.-Col, Sir Alfred H. Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Parker, James Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Hope, Lt-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Percy, Charles Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Perkins, Walter F. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Perring, William George Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Preston, W. R. Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Prescott, Major W. H. Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Jameson, J. Gordon Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Jephcott, A. R. Pulley, Charles Thornton Yeo, Sir Alfred William Jodrell, Neville Paul Purchase, H. G. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Johnstone, Joseph Rae, H. Norman Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Raeburn, Sir William H. Younger, Sir George Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Reid, D. D. Mr. Dudley Ward and Commander Eyres-Monsell. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Remnant, Sir James King, Captain Henry Douglas
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Kenyon, Barnet Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Kiley, James D. Sitch, Charles H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Lunn, William Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Spencer, George A. Bromfield, William Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.) Swan, J. E. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Cairns, John Myers, Thomas Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Entwistle, Major C. F. O'Grady, Captain James Waterson, A. E. Galbraith, Samuel Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wedgwood, Colonel J. C. Glanville, Harold James Raffan, Peter Wilson White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Rendall, Athelstan Wintringham, T. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Grundy, T. W. Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Robertson, John Hirst, G. H. Rose, Frank H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Holmes, J. Stanley Royce, William Stapleton Mr. Tyson Wilson and Mr. Hogge. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Sexton, James
Class IV
"4. That a sum, not exceeding £26,537,788, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class IV of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
£ 1. Board of Education 22,755,567 2. British Museum 172,233 3. National Gallery 13,956 4. National Portrait Gallery 4,324 5. Wallace Collection 8,953 6. London Museum 2,912 7. Imperial War Museum 30,000 8. Scientific Investigation, etc. 115,416 9. Scientific and Industrial Research 333,298 10. Universities and Colleges, United Kingdom, and Intermediate Education, Wales 645,700 10A. Universities, Colleges, Medical Schools, etc. (Special Grants in Aid) 96,000 10B. Serbian Relief Fund 12,500 Scotland. 12. National Galleries 6,161 Ireland. 13. Public Education (including a Supplementary sum of £557,290) 2,015,661 14. Intermediate Education, Ireland (including a Supplementary sum of £50,000) 110,000 15. Endowed Schools Commissioners 542 16. National Gallery 2,150 17. Science and Art 171,415 18. Universities and Colleges 41,000 £26,537,788"
Question put, and agreed to.
Class V
5. "That a sum not exceeding £3,544,917, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921,
The Committee divided: Ayes, 269; Noes, 50.
Division No. 283.] AYES. [10.44 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Barnett, Major R. W. Blair, Reginald Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Barnston, Major Harry Borwick, Major G. O. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Barrand, A. R. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Ainsworth, Captain Charles Barrie, Charles Coupar Bowles, Colonel H. F. Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold, C. M. S. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Atkey, A. R. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Brassey, Major H. L. C. Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Breese, Major Charles E. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Bennett, Thomas Jewell Bridgeman, William Clive Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Betterton, Henry B. Broad, Thomas Tucker Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bigland, Alfred Brown, Captain D. C. Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Barlow, Sir Montague Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay)
for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class V of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
£ 1. Diplomatic and Consular Services (including a Supplementary sum of £37,000) 1,316,379 2. Colonial Services (including a Supplementary sum of £1,581,139) 2,220,238 3. Telegraph Subsidies 7,300 4. Cyprus (Grant in Aid) 1,000 £3,544,917"
Question put, and agreed to.
Class VI
"6. That a sum, not exceeding £2,505,631, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VI. of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
£ 1. Superannuation and Retired Allowances 617,805 2. Miscellaneous Expenses. 33,349 3. Hospitals and Charities, Ireland 738 4. Temporary Commissions 60,000 5. Repayments to the Local Loans Fund 211 6. Ireland Development Grant (including a Supplementary sum of £165,000) 175,000 7. Expenses under the Representation of the People Act 300,000 8. Development Fund 1,000,000 9. Emergency Services 160,000 10. Welsh Church Commission 100,000 11. Mission of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales to India 27,500 12. Repayments to the Civil Contingencies Fund 31,028 £2,505,631"
Question put.
Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Butcher, Sir John George Hewart, Rt. Han. Sir Gordon Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Campbell, J. D. G. Hoare, Lieut-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Preston, W. R. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Prescott, Major W. H. Carr, W. Theodore Hood, Joseph Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Casey, T. W. Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, w.) Pulley, Charles Thornton Cautley, Henry S. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Purchase, H. G. Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Rae, H. Norman Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Raeburn, Sir William H. Chadwick, Sir Robert Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Reid, D. D. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Remnant, Sir James Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Clough, Robert Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Coates, Major Sir Edward F. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jameson, J. Gordon Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Cohen, Major J. Brunel Jephcott, A. R. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Jesson, C. Rodger, A. K. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Jodrell, Neville Paul Rogers, Sir Hallewell Courthope, Major George L. Johnstone, Joseph Roundell, Colonel R. F. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Royden, Sir Thomas Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Curzon, Commander Viscount Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustavo D. Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. King, Captain Henry Douglas Seddon, J. A. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Simm, M. T. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Dawes, James Arthur Lloyd, George Butler Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Stanton, Charles B. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Doyle, N. Grattan Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Stewart, Gershom Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lorden, John William Strauss, Edward Anthony Edge, Captain William Lort-Williams, J. Sturrock, J. Leng Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Loseby, Captain C. E. Sugden, W. H. Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lowe, Sir Francis William Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Elveden, viscount Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'sfr) Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Farquharson, Major A. C. Macmaster, Donald Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Fell, Sir Arthur M'Micking, Major Gilbert Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Foreman, Henry Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Forrest, Walter McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Tryon, Major George Clement Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Turton, E. R. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Macquisten, F. A. Vickers, Douglas Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Mallalieu, F. W. Waddington, R. Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Wallace, J. Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Matthews, David Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Gilbert, James Daniel Middlebrook, Sir William Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Mitchell, William Lane Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Glyn, Major Ralph Molson, Major John Elsdale Waring, Major Walter Goff, Sir R. Park Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Warren, Lieut.-Col, Sir Alfred H. Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Grant, James A. Morden, Colonel H. Grant Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Morrison, Hugh Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Mosley, Oswald Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Gregory, Holman Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Greig, Colonel James William Murchison, C. K. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Gritten, W. G. Howard Murray, John (Leeds, West) Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Neal, Arthur Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Gwynne, Rupert S. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Hailwood, Augustine O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by) Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Yeo, Sir Alfred William Hanna, George Boyle Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Harris, Sir Henry Percy Pennefather, De Fonblanque Younger, Sir George Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Percy, Charles Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Perkins, Walter Frank TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Perring, William George Mr. Parker and Colonel Gibbs. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Glanville, Harold James Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Cairns, John Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Entwistle, Major C. F. Grundy, T. W. Bromfield, William Galbraith, Samuel Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Hayward, Major Evan O'Grady, Captain James Swan, J. E. Hirst, G. H. Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Hogge, James Myles Raffan, Peter Wilson Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Holmes, J. Stanley Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Waterson, A. E. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Wedgwood, Colonel J. C. Kenyon, Barnet Robertson, John White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Kiley, James D. Rose, Frank H. Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Lunn, William Royce, William Stapleton Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Sexton, James Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Sitch, Charles H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Myers, Thomas Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Mr. G. Thorne and Mr. Allen Parkinson. Newbould, Alfred Ernest Spencer, George A.
Class VII
7. "That a sum, not exceeding £46,561,180, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in Class VII. of the Estimates for Civil Services, namely:—
£ 1. Old Age Pensions 13,969,000 2. National Health Insurance, Joint Committee 247,330 3. Ministry of Health (including a Supplementary sum of £10) 17,572,807
Division No. 284.] AYES. [10.55 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Chadwick, Sir Robert Grant, James A. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Atkey, A. R. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Clough, Robert Gregory, Holman Balfour, George (Hampstead) Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Greig, Colonel James William Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Gritten, W. G. Howard Barlow, Sir Montague Cohen, Major J. Brunel Grundy, T. W. Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Barnett, Major R. W. Courthope, Major George L. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Barnston, Major Harry Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Gwynne, Rupert S. Barrand, A. R. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Barrie, Charles Coupar Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hailwood, Augustine Beckett, Hon. Gervase Curzon, Commander Viscount Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Hanna, George Boyle Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Bennett, Thomas Jewell Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Harris, Sir Henry Percy Betterton, Henry B. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Bigland, Alfred Davison. Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Dawes, James Arthur Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Blair, Reginald Doyle, N. Grattan Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Borwick, Major G. O. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hirst, G. H. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Edge, Captain William Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Bowles, Colonel H. F. Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Hood, Joseph Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Elveden, viscount Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Ci'ckm'nn, W.) Brassey, Major H. L. C. Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Breese, Major Charles E. Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Bridgeman, William Clive Farquharson, Major A. C. Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Broad, Thomas Tucker Fell, Sir Arthur Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Brown, Captain D. C. Foreman, Henry Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Forrest, Walter Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Jameson, J. Gordon Butcher, Sir John George Galbraith, Samuel Jephcott, A. R. Cairns, John Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Jesson, C. Campbell, J. D. G. Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Jodrell, Neville Paul Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Johnstone, Joseph Carr, W. Theodore Gilbert, James Daniel Jones, Sir Evan (Pembroke) Casey, T. W. Glyn, Major Ralph Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Cautley, Henry S. Goff, Sir R. Park Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George
£ 4. Local Government Board (Ireland) £1,029,441 5. National Health Insurance Commission (Ireland) 266,380 6. Ministry of Labour 13,369,134 7. National Insurance, Audit Department 94,450 8. Friendly Societies' Deficiency 12,638 £46,561,180"
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 292; Noes, 18.
Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. King, Captain Henry Douglas Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Stewart, Gershom Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Pennefather, De Fonblanque Strauss, Edward Anthony Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Perkins, Walter Frank Sturrock, J. Leng Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Perring, William George Sugden, W. H. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Swan, J. E. Lloyd, George Butler' Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Locker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green) Preston, W. R. Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Prescott, Major W. H. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Lorden, John William Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Lort-Williams, J. Pulley, Charles Thornton Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Loseby, Captain C. E. Purchase, H. G. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Lowe, Sir Francis William Rae, H. Norman Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Raeburn, Sir William H. Tryon, Major George Clement Lunn, William Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Turton, E. R. M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Vickers, Douglas Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Reid, D. D. Waddington, R. Macmaster, Donald Remnant, Sir James Wallace, J. M'Micking, Major Gilbert Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Waring, Major Walter Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H. Macquisten, F. A. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Waterson, A. E. Mallalieu, F. W. Robertson, John Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Matthews, David Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Mitchell, William Lane Rodger, A. K. Williams, Lieut.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Molson, Major John Elsdale Rogers, Sir Hallewell Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Rose, Frank H. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Royce, William Stapleton Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Royden, Sir Thomas Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Morris, Richard Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Morrison, Hugh Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Mosley, Oswald Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Murchison, C. K. Seddon, J. A. Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Sexton, James Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Myers, Thomas Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Neal, Arthur Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Simm, M. T. Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Sitch, Charles H. Younger, Sir George O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Spencer, George A. Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Parker, James Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Mr. Dudley Ward and Lieut.-Col. Sir J. Gilmour. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Stanton, Charles B. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry
NOES. Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Wedgwood, Colonel J. C. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Kenyon, Barnet White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Entwistle, Major C. F. Kiley, James D. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Glanville, Harold James Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Newbould, Alfred Ernest TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Hayward, Major Evan O'Grady, Captain James Mr. Holmes and Mr. Hogge. Hopkinson, A. (Lancaster, Mossley) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. sir O. (Anglesey)
Ministry of Pensions
"3. That a sum, not exceeding £75,235,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Pensions, and for sundry Contributions in respect of the Administration of the Ministry of Pensions Act, 1916."
Question put, and agreed to.
Ministry of Food
"4. That a sum, not exceeding £393,350, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Food."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 259; Noes, 51.
Division No. 285.] AYES. [11.7 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Beckett, Hon. Gervase Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Barlow, Sir Montague Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold, C. M. S. Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Bennett, Thomas Jewell Atkey, A. R. Barnett, Major R. W. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Barnston, Major Harry Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Baird, Sir John Lawrence Barrand, A. R. Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Barrie, Charles Coupar Blair, Reginald Borwick, Major G. O. Hanna, George Boyle Perkins, Walter Frank Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Perring, William George Bowles, Coonel H. F. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Brassey, Major H. L. C. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Breese, Major Charles E. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Bridgeman, William Clive Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Preston, W. R. Broad, Thomas Tucker Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Prescott, Major W. H. Brown, Captain D. C. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Pulley, Charles Thornton Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Purchase, H. G. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hood, Joseph Rae, H. Norman Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Raeburn, Sir William H. Campbell, J. D. G. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Carr, W. Theodore Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Reid, D. D. Casey, T. w. Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Renwick, George Cautley, Henry S. Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Chadwick, Sir Robert Jackson, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. F. S. Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm., W.) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Jameson, J. Gordon Rodger, A. K. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Jephcott, A. R. Rogers, Sir Hallewell Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Jesson, C. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Clough, Robert Jodrell, Neville Paul Royden, Sir Thomas Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Johnstone, Joseph Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Cohen, Major J. Brunel Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Kellaway. Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Courthope, Major George L. Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E, (N'castle-on-T.) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) King, Captain Henry Douglas Simm, M. T. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Curzon, Commander Viscount Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Stanton, Charles B. Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Stewart, Gershom Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Lloyd, George Butler Strauss, Edward Anthony Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Sturrock, J. Leng Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Sugden, W. H. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S) Lorden, John William Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Dawes, James Arthur Lort-Williams, J. Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Dennis, J.W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Loseby, Captain C. E. Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Lowe, Sir Francis William Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Doyle, N. Grattan Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Edge, Captain William Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Tryon, Major George Clement Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Macmaster, Donald Turton, E. R. Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) M'Micklng, Major Gilbert Vickers, Douglas Elveden, Viscount Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Waddington, R. Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Wallace, J. Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Farquharson, Major A. C. Macquisten, F. A. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Fell, Sir Arthur Mallalieu, F. W. Waring, Major Walter Foreman, Henry Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Warren, Lieut.-Col, Sir Alfred H. Forrest, Walter Matthews, David Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Mitchell, William Lane Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Fraser, Major Sir Keith Molson, Major John Elsdale Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Morden, Colonel H. Grant Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Gilbert, James Daniel Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Morris, Richard Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Glyn, Major Ralph Morrison, Hugh Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Goff, Sir R. Park Mosley, Oswald Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Murchison, C. K. Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Murray, John (Leeds, West) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Neal, Arthur Yeo, Sir Alfred William Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Gregory, Holman Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Greig, Colonel James William O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Younger, Sir George Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Parker, James Gwynne, Rupert S. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Dudley Ward. Hailwood, Augustine Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by) Pennefather, De Fonblanque
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Bromfield, William Entwistle, Major C. F. Bigland, Alfred Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Glanville, Harold James Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Cairns, John Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Sitch, Charles H. Gritten, W. G. Howard Myers, Thomas Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Grundy, T. W. Newbould, Alfred Ernest Spencer, George A. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Swan, J. E, Hayward, Major Evan Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Hirst, G. H. Rattan, Peter Wilson Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Holmes, J. Stanley Remnant, Sir James Waterson, A. E. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Kenyon, Barnet Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Kiley, James D. Robertson, John Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Lunn, William Rose, Frank H. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Royce, William Stapleton Malone, C. L. (Leyton, E.) Sexton, James TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Mr. Hogge and Mr. G. Thorne.
Ministry of Shipping
"5, That a sum, not exceeding £5,279,525, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the'31st day of March, 1921,
for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ministry of Shipping."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 259; Noes, 44.
Division No. 286.] AYES. [11.17 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Ainsworth, Captain Charles Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Atkey, A. R. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Dawes, James Arthur Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Dennis, J.W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Balfour, George (Hampstead) Doyle, N. Grattan Jameson, J. Gordon Balfour, Sir R. (Glasgow, Partick) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Jephcott, A. R. Barker, Major Robert H. Edge, Captain William Jesson, C. Barlow, Sir Montague Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Jodrell, Neville Paul Barnes, Rt. Hon. G. (Glas., Gorbals) Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Johnstone, Joseph Barnett, Major R. W. Elveden, Viscount Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Barnston, Major Harry Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Barrand, A. R. Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Barrie, Charles Coupar Farquharson, Major A. C. Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Beckett, Hon. Gervase Fell, Sir Arthur Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Foreman, Henry King, Captain Henry Douglas Betterton, Henry B. Forrest, Walter Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Birchall, Major J. Dearman Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Blair, Reginald Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Borwick, Major G. O. Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Lloyd, George Butler Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Bowles, Colonel H. F. Gilbert, James Daniel Lorden, John William Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Lort-Williams, J. Brassey, Major H. L. C. Glyn, Major Ralph Loseby, Captain C. E. Breese, Major Charles E. Goff, Sir R. Park Lowe, Sir Francis William Bridgeman, William Clive Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Broad, Thomas Tucker Grant, James A. Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Brown, Captain D. C. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Macmaster, Donald Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry M'Micking, Major Gilbert Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Burn, T. H. (Belfast, St. Anne's) Gregory, Holman Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Campbell, J. D. G. Greig, Colonel James William Macquisten, F. A. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Gretton, Colonel John Mallalieu, F. W. Carr, W. Theodore Gritten, W. G. Howard Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Casey, T. W. Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Matthews, David Cautley, Henry S. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Mitchell, William Lane Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Gwynne, Rupert S. Molson, Major John Elsdale Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hail wood, Augustine Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hall, Rr-Admi Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W. D'by) Morden, Colonel H. Grant Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Clough, Robert Hanna, George Boyle Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Morrison, Hugh Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Moseley, Oswald Cohen, Major J. Brunei Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Hennessy, Major J R. G. Murchison, C. K. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Courthope, Major George L. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Herbert, Denis (Hertford, Watford) Neal, Arthur Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Curzon, Commander Viscount Hood, Joseph O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Rogers, Sir Hallewell Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Roundell, Colonel R. F. Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Royden, Sir Thomas Waring, Major Walter Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Warren, Lieut.-Col. Sir Alfred H. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Perkins, Walter Frank Seddon, J. A. Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Perring, William George Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Simm, M. T. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Prescott, Major W. H. Stanton, Charles B. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Preston, W. R. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Stewart, Gershom Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Pulley, Charles Thornton Strauss, Edward Anthony Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Purchase, H. G. Sturrock, J. Leng Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Rae, H. Norman Sugden, W. H. Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Raeburn, Sir William H. Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Reid, D. D. Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Remnant, Sir James Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Renwick, George Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Younger, Sir George Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Tryon, Major George Clement Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Turton, E. R. TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Vickers, Douglas Colonel Sir Robert Sanders and Mr. Parker. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Waddington, R. Rodger, A. K. Wallace, J.
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Kenyon, Barnet Sitch, Charles H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kiley, James D. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Lunn, William Spencer, George A. Bromfield, William Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian). Swan, J. E. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Cairns, John Myers, Thomas Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Entwistle, Major C F. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Waterson, A. E. Glanville, Harold James Raffan, Peter Wilson White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Grundy, T. W. Robertson, John Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Rose, Frank H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES .—.— Hayward, Major Evan Royce, William Stapleton Mr. Holmes and Mr. Hogge. Hirst, G. H. Sexton, James
National Savings Committee
"7. That a sum, not exceeding £61,190, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the National Savings Committee."
Question put, and agreed to.
Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic)
"8. That a sum, not exceeding £205,230, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Central Control Board (Liquor Traffic), including the cost of acquisition and direct control of licensed premises and businesses and the provision of canteens."
Question put.
The Committee proceeded to a Division.
Mr. PARKER and Lieut.-Colonel STANLEY were appointed Tellers for the Ayes; but there being no Members will- ing to act as Tellers for the Noes, the Chairman declared that the Ayes had it.
Loans to Allies, Etc
"10. That a sum, not exceeding £16,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Loans to the Governments of Allied countries, and for Loans and Grants for purposes of Reconstruction and Relief."
Question put, and agreed to.
Railway Agreements
"11. That a sum, not exceeding £14,300,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, to meet Expenditure arising from the Government Control of Railways in Great Britain and Ireland under The Regulation of The Forces Act, 1871."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 252; Noes, 49.
Division No. 287.] AYES. [11.32 p.m. Adair, Rear-Admiral Thomas B. S. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Norris, Colonel Sir Henry G. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Glyn, Major Ralph O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Goff, Sir R. Park Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Ainsworth, Captain Charles Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Grant, James A. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Atkey, A. R. Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Pennefather, De Fonblanque Baird, Sir John Lawrence Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Perkins, Walter Frank Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Perring, William George Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gregory, Holman Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Barlow, Sir Montague Greig, Colonel James William Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Barnett, Major R. W. Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Barnston, Major Harry Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Barrand, A. R. Gwynne, Rupert S. Preston, W. R. Barrie, Charles Coupar Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Prescott, Major W. H. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hailwood, Augustine Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by) Pulley, Charles Thornton Bennett, Thomas Jewell Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Purchase, H. G. Betterton, Henry B. Hanna, George Boyle Rae, H. Norman Bigland, Alfred Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Raeburn, Sir William H. Birchall, Major J. Dearman Harris, Sir Henry Percy Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Reid, D. D. Blair, Reginald Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Renwick, George Borwick, Major G. O. Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Herbert, Denis (Hertford, Watford) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Bowles, Colonel H. F. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Brassey, Major H. L. C. Hood, Joseph Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Breese, Major Charles E. Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Rodger, A. K. Bridgeman, William Clive Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Rogers, Sir Hallewell Broad, Thomas Tucker Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A (Midlothian) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Brown, Captain D. C. Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Royden, Sir Thomas Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Campbell, J. D. G. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Seddon, J. A. Carr, W. Theodore Jameson, J. Gordon Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Casey, T. W. Jephcott, A. R. Shortt, Rt. Hon. E. (N'castle-on-T.) Cautley, Henry S. Jesson, C. Simm, M. T. Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Jodrell, Neville Paul Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Stanton, Charles B. Chadwick, Sir Robert Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Stewart, Gershom Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Strauss, Edward Anthony Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H H. Spender Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Sturrock, J. Leng Clough, Robert King, Captain Henry Douglas Sugden, W. H. Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Cohen, Major J. Brunei Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Collins, Sir G. P. (Greenock) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Courthope, Major George L. Lloyd, George Butler Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Tryon, Major George Clement Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Turton, E. R. Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry Lorden, John William Vickers, Douglas Curzon, Commander Viscount Lort-Williams, J. Waddington, R. Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) Loseby, Captain C. E. Wallace, J. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Lowe, Sir Francis William Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Macmaster, Donald Waring, Major Walter Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S) M'Micking, Major Gilbert Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Dawes, James Arthur McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Macquisten, F. A. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Doyle, N. Grattan Mallalieu, F. W. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Edge, Captain William Matthews, David Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Mitchell, William Lane Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Molson, Major John Elsdale Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Elveden, Viscount Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Morden, Colonel H. Grant Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Farquharson, Major A. C. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Fell, Sir Arthur Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Foreman, Henry Morrison, Hugh Yeo, Sir Alfred William Forrest, Walter Moseley, Oswald Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Murchison, C. K. Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Younger, Sir George Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Neal, Arthur TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Gilbert, James Daniel Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Mr. Parker and Lieut.-Col. Stanley.
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Johnstone, Joseph Sexton, James Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kenyon, Barnet Sitch, Charles H. Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bromfield, William Lunn, William Spencer, George A. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Cairns, John Murray, Dr. D. (Inverness & Ross) Swan, J. E. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Myers, Thomas Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Entwistle, Major C F. Newbould, Alfred Ernest Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Glanville, Harold James Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Waterson, A. E. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Gritten, W. G. Howard Raffan, Peter Wilson Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Grundy, T. W. Remnant, Sir James Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Hayward, Major Evan Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— Hirst, G. H. Robertson, John Mr. Tyson Wilson and Mr. G. Thorne. Hogge, James Myles Rose, Frank H. Holmes, J. Stanley Royce, William Stapleton
Coastwise Transport Subsidy
"12. That a sum, not exceeding £228,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, to meet Expenditure in respect of Refunds
of Excess Cost of Conveyance by Coastwise Transport over Transport by Rail and of Dock Congestion Relief."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 253; The Committee Noes 27.
Division No. 288.] AYES. [11.42 p.m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Courthope, Major George L. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Ainsworth, Captain Charles Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Atkey, A. R. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Curzon, Commander Viscount Hirst, G. H. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Hood, Joseph Balfour, George (Hampstead) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Barker, Major Robert H. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Barlow, Sir Montague Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Barnett, Major R. W. Dawes, James Arthur Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Barnston, Major Harry Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Barrand, A. R. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Barrie, Charles Coupar Doyle, N. Grattan Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Beckett, Hon. Gervase Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Edge, Captain William James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Jameson, J. Gordon Bennett, Thomas Jewell Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Jephcott, A. R. Betterton, Henry B. Elveden, Viscount Jesson, C. Bigland, Alfred Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Jodrell, Neville Paul Birchall, Major J. Dearman Farquharson, Major A. C. Johnstone, Joseph Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Forrest, Walter Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Fraser, Major Sir Keith Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Blair, Reginald Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Borwick, Major G. O. Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Kelly, Major Fred (Rotherham) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Gilbert, James Daniel King, Captain Henry Douglas Bowles, Colonel H. F. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Glyn, Major Ralph Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Brassey, Major H. L. C. Goff, Sir R. Park Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Breese, Major Charles E. Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Bridgeman, William Clive Grant, James A. Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Broad, Thomas Tucker Gray, Major Ernest (Accrington) Lloyd, George Butler Brown, Captain D. C. Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Green, Albert (Derby) Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Lordert, John William Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Lort-Williams, J. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Gregory, Holman Loseby, Captain C. E. Cairns, John Greig, Colonel James William Lowe, Sir Francis William Campbell, J. D. G. Gritten, W. G. Howard Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Grundy, T. W. M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Carr, W. Theodore Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Casey, T. W. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Macmaster, Donald Cautley, Henry S. Hacking, Captain Douglas H. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Hailwood, Augustine Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Macquisten, F. A. Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by) Mallalieu, F. W. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Clough, Robert Hanna, George Boyle Matthews, David Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Mitchell, William Lane Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Molson, Major John Elsdale Cohen, Major J. Brunei Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col, J. T. C. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Tryon, Major George Clement Morden, Colonel H. Grant Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Turton, E. R. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Vickers, Douglas Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Waddington, R. Morrison, Hugh Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Wallace, J. Moseley, Oswald Rodger, A. K. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Rogers, Sir Hallewell Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Murchison, C. K. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Royce, William Stapleton Waring, Major Walter Neal, Arthur Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Wild, Sir Ernest Edward O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Seddon, J. A. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Simm, M. T. Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Sitch, Charles H. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Pennefather, De Fonblanque Spencer, George A. Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Perkins, Walter Frank Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Perring, William George Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Stanton, Charles B. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Stewart, Gershom Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Strauss, Edward Anthony Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Prescott, Major W. H. Sturrock, J. Leng Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Sugden, W. H. Yeo, Sir Alfred William Pulley, Charles Thornton Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Purchase, H. G. Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Rae, H. Norman Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'ter) Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Raeburn, Sir William H. Talbot, G. A. (Kernel Hempstead) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Remnant, Sir James Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Commander Eyres-Monsell and Mr. Parker. Renwick, George Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill)
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Lunn, William Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Swan, J. E. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Entwistle, Major C. F. Newbould, Alfred Ernest Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Glanville, Harold James Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Waterson, A. E. Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Robertson, John White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Hayward, Major Evan Rose, Frank H. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Sexton, James Kenyon, Barnet Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Kiley, James D. Sitch, Charles H. Mr. Holmes and Mr. A. Parkinson.
Canals Compensation
"13. That a sum, not exceeding £630,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Compensation to Canal Companies and Canal Carriers in the United Kingdom aris-
ing out of Government Control, for Advances to Canal Companies, for Advances to Caledonian and Crinan-Canals, and for Survey and Development of Inland Navigation."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 241; Noes 33.
Division No. 289.] AYES. [11.54 p.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Berwick, Major G. O. Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Ainsworth, Captain Charles Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Clough, Robert Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Atkey, A. R. Bowles, Colonel H. F. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Baird, Sir John Lawrence Brassey, Major H. L. C. Courthope, Major George L. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Breese, Major Charles E. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bridgeman, William Clive Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Barker, Major Robert H. Broad, Thomas Tucker Curzon, Commander Viscount Barlow, Sir Montague Brown, Captain D. C. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Barnett, Major R. W. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Barnston, Major Harry Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Davies, Sir William H. (Bristol, S.) Barrand, A. R. Bull, Rt. Hon. Sir William James Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Barrie, Charles Coupar Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Dawes, James Arthur Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Cairns, John Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Campbell, J. D. G. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Doyle, N. Grattan Bennett, Thomas Jewell Carr, W. Theodore Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Betterton, Henry B. Casey, T. W. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Cautley, Henry S. Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Elveden, Viscount Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Blair, Reginald Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Farquharson, Major A. C. Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Forrest, Walter Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Rodger, A. K. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Lloyd, George Butler Rogers, Sir Hallewell Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Royden, Sir Thomas Gilbert, James Daniel Lorden, John William Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Lort-Williams, J. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Glyn, Major Ralph Loseby, Captain C. E. Seddon, J. A. Goff, Sir R. Park Lowe, Sir Francis William Sexton, James Goulding, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward A. Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Simm, M. T. Grant, James A. Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Sitch, Charles H. Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Macmaster, Donald Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Green, Albert (Derby) M'Micking, Major Gilbert Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Stanton, Charles B. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Gregory, Holman Macquisten, F. A. Stewart, Gershom Greig, Colonel James William Mallalieu, F. W. Strauss, Edward Anthony Guest, Major O. (Leic., Loughboro') Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Sugden, W. H. Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Matthews, David Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Gwynne, Rupert S. Mitchell, William Lane Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Molson, Major John Elsdale Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Hailwood, Augustine Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W.(Liv'p'l, W. D'by) Morden, Colonel H. Grant Thomson, F. C., (Aberdeen, South) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell- (Maryhill) Hanna, George Boyle Morrison, Hugh Tryon, Major George Clement Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Mosley, Oswald Turton, E. R. Harris, Sir Henry Percy Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Vickers, Douglas Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Murchison, C. K. Waddington, R. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir John Tudor Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Neal, Arthur Waring, Major Walter Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Hood, Joseph Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Pennefather, Do Fonblanque Willoughby, Lieut.-Col. Hon. Claud Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Perkins, Walter Frank Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Perring, William George Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Jameson, J. Gordon Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Jephcott, A. R. Prescott, Major W. H. Wood, Major S. Hill- (High Peak) Jesson, C. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Jodrell, Neville Paul Pulley, Charles Thornton Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Johnstone, Joseph Purchase, H. G. Yeo, Sir Alfred William Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Rae, H. Norman Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Raeburn, Sir William H. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Kellaway, Rt. Hon. Fredk. George Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Younger, Sir George Kenyon, Barnet Renwick, George King, Captain Henry Douglas Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) TELLERS FOR THE AYES .—.— Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Mr. Dudley Ward and Colonel Gibbs. Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
NOES. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Lunn, William Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bramsdon, Sir Thomas Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Spencer, George A. Bromfield, William Newbould, Alfred Ernest Swan, J. E. Entwistle, Major C. F. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Glanville, Harold James Raffan, Peter Wilson Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Gritten, W. G. Howard Remnant, Sir James Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Grundy, T. W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Waterson, A. E. Hay ward, Major Evan Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Hirst, G. H. Robertson, John Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Holmes, J. Stanley Rose, Frank H. Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Royce, William Stapleton TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Kiley, James D. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Mr. Hogge and Mr. J. E. Davison.
Bread Subsidy
"14. That a sum, not exceeding £25,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, as a Grant in Aid of the Cost of Bread."
Question put, and agreed to.
Treasury Securities Deposit Scheme
"15. That a sum, not exceding £835,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come, in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the Expenses connected with the Treasury Securities Deposit Scheme."
Question put, and agreed to.
Property Losses (Ireland) Compensation
"16. That a sum, not exceeding £100,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for ex gratia Grants in respect of Losses and Injuries sustained in the Rebellion in Ireland."
Question put, and agreed to.
Miscellaneous War Services (Foreign Office)
"17. That a sum, not exceeding £125,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for the cost of certain Miscellaneous War Services."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 225;. Noes, 41.
Division No. 290.] AYES. [12.4 a.m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Forrest, Walter McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Ainsworth, Captain Charles Fraser, Major Sir Keith Macquisten, F. A. Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Mallalieu, F. W. Atkey, A. R. Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Malone, Major P. B. (Tottenham, S.) Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Matthews, David Baird, Sir John Lawrence Gilbert, James Daniel Molson, Major John Elsdale Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Glyn, Major Ralph Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Goff, Sir R. Park Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Barker, Major Robert H. Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Barlow, Sir Montague Green, Albert (Derby) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Barnett, Major R. W. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Morrison, Hugh Barnston, Major Harry Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Mosley, Oswald Barrand, A. R. Gregory, Holman Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Barrie, Charles Coupar Greig, Colonel James William Murchison, C. K. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Gritten, W. G. Howard Murray, John (Leeds, West) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Guest, Major O. (Leic, Loughboro') Neal, Arthur Bennett, Thomas Jewell Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Betterton, Henry B. Gwynne, Rupert S. O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Bigland, Alfred Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Hailwood, Augustine Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by) Parker, James Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Blair, Reginald Hanna, George Boyle Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Berwick, Major G. O. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Harris, Sir Henry Percy Perkins, Walter Frank Bowles, Colonel H. F. Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Perring, William George Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Philipps, Sir Owen C. (Chester, City) Brassey, Major H. L. C. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Bridgeman, William Clive Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, Yeovil) Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Broad, Thomas Tucker Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Brown, Captain D. C. Hewart, Rt. Hon. Sir Gordon Prescott, Major W. H. Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hood, Joseph Pulley, Charles Thornton Campbell, J. D. G. Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Purchase, H. G. Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Rae, H. Norman Carr, W. Theodore Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Raeburn, Sir William H. Casey, T. W. Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Cautley, Henry S. Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Remnant, Sir James Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Renwick, George Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Jameson, J. Gordon Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Clough, Robert Jephcott, A. R. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Jodrell, Neville Paul Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Cockerill, Brigadler-Geenral G. K. Johnstone, Joseph Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Rodger, A. K. Courthope, Major George L. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Rogers, Sir Hallewell Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Roundell, Colonel R. F. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Kenyon, Barnet Royden, Sir Thomas Curzon, Commander Viscount King, Captain Henry Douglas Royds, Lieut.-Colonel Edmund Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Seddon, J. A. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Simm, M. T. Dawes, James Arthur Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Dennis, J.W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Doyle, N. Grattan Lorden, John William Stanton, Charles B. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lori-Williams, J. Stephenson, Lieut. -Colonel H. K. Edge, Captain William Loseby, Captain C. E. Stewart, Gershom Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lowe, Sir Francis William Strauss, Edward Anthony Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Sturrock, J. Leng Elveden, Viscount M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Sugden, W. H. Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Macmaster, Donald Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Farquharson, Major A. C. M'Micking, Major Gilbert Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Tryon, Major George Clement Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Turton, E. R. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Vickers, Douglas Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Waddington, R. Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Younger, Sir George Wallace, J. Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Waring, Major Walter Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) Lord E. Talbot and Lt.-Colonel Sir John Gilmour.
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Holmes, J. Stanley Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Sitch, Charles H. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kiley, James D. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bromfield, William Lunn, William Spencer, George A. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D.(Midlothian) Swan, J. E. Cairns, John Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O (Anglesey) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Newbould, Alfred Ernest Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Entwistle, Major C. F. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Waterson, A. E. Glanville, Harold James Raffan, Peter Wilson White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Graham, R. (Nelson and Colne) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Grundy, T. W. Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Robertson, John Hayward, Major Evan Rose, Frank H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Hirst, G. H. Royce, William Stapleton Mr. Tyson Wilson and Mr. G. Thorne. Hogge, James Myles Sexton, James
Coal Mines Deficiency
"18. That a sum, not exceeding £15,000,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, to provide for the Deficiency arising under the Coal Mines Control Agreement (Confirmation) Act, 1918, and for Advances to the Coal Control Account."
Question put.
( seated and covered ): On a point of Order.
May I point out that there were no collective voices calling "Aye"? There were at least 30 calling "No," but on this side of the Committee we could hear no voices calling "Aye," and therefore, I submit, we can claim the Division.
I am sorry that the hon and gallant Member is so deaf at this time in the morning.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 220; Noes, 41.
Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Stanton, Charles B. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Murchison, C. K. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Stewart, Gershom Home, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Murray, John (Leeds, West) Strauss, Edward Anthony Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Near, Arthur Sturrock, J. Leng Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Sugden, W. H. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Jameson, J. Gordon Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Jephcott, A. R. Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Jodrell, Neville Paul Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Johnstone, Joseph Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Perkins, Walter Frank Tryon, Major George Clement Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Perring, William George Turton, E. R. King, Captain Henry Douglas Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Vickers, Douglas Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Waddington, R. Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Wallace, J. Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Prescott, Major W. H. Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Pulley, Charles Thornton Waring, Major Walter Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Purchase, H. G. Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Rae, H. Norman Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Lorden, John William Raeburn, Sir William H. Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Lort Williams, J. Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Loseby, Captain C. E. Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Lowe, Sir Francis William Renwick, George Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Macmaster, Donald Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) M'Micking, Major Gilbert Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Wood, Sir J. (Stalybridge & Hyde) McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Rodger, A. K. Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. Rogers, Sir Hallewell Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Mallalieu, F. W. Royden, Sir Thomas Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Matthews, David Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Yeo, Sir Alfred William Molson, Major John Elsdale Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Seddon, J. A. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Young, W. (Perth & Kinross, Perth) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Simm, M. T. Younger, Sir George Morrison, Hugh Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Mosley, Oswald Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Lord E. Talbot and Mr. Parker.
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Holmes, J. Stanley Sexton, James Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Kenyon, Barnet Sitch, Charles H. Broad, Thomas Tucker Kiley, James D. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bromfield, William Lunn, William Spencer, George A. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Maclean, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (Midlothian) Swan, J. E. Cairns, John Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Entwistle, Major C. F. Raffan, Peter Wilson Waterson, A. E. Glanville, Harold James Remnant, Sir James White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Grundy, T. W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Hayward, Major Evan Robertson, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Hirst, G. H. Rose, Frank H. Mr. Tyson Wilson and Mr. G. Thorne. Hogge, James Myles Royce, William Stapleton
Export Credit
"19. That a sum, not exceeding £1,250,000, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of
Division No. 292.] AYES. > [12.24 a.m. Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Barrie, Charles Coupar Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Brassey, Major H. L. C. Atkey, A. R. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Breese, Major Charles E. Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Betterton, Henry B. Bridgeman, William Clive Baird, Sir John Lawrence Bigland, Alfred Broad, Thomas Tucker Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Birchall, Major J. Dearman Brown, Captain D. C. Balfour, George (Hampstead) Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Barker, Major Robert H. Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Buckley, Lieut.-Colonel A. Barlow, Sir Montague Blair, Reginald Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Barnett, Major R. W. Borwick, Major G. O. Campbell, J. D. G. Barnston, Major Harry Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Barrand, A. R. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Carr, W. Theodore
March, 1921, to provide for Advances to British Exporters."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 214; Noes, 30.
Casey, T. W. Hood, Joseph Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Cautley, Henry S. Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Remnant, Sir James Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Renwick, George Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Clough, Robert Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Rodger, A. K. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jameson, J. Gordon Rogers, Sir Hallewell Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Jodrell, Neville Paul Roundell, Colonel R. F. Courthope, Major George L. Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Royden, Sir Thomas Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Curzon, Commander Viscount King, Captain Henry Douglas Sexton, James Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Simm, M. T. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Dawes, James Arthur Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Stanton, Charles B. Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Stewart, Gershom Doyle, N. Grattan Lorden, John William Strauss, Edward Anthony Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lort-Williams, J. Sturrock, J. Leng Edge, Captain William Loseby, Captain C. E. Sugden, W. H. Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lowe, Sir Francis William Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Elveden, Viscount Macmaster, Donald Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. M'Micking, Major Gilbert Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Farquharson, Major A. C. Mallalieu, F. W. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Forrest, Walter Molson, Major John Elsdale Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Montagu, Rt. Hon. E. S. Tryon, Major George Clement Fraser, Major Sir Keith Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Turton, E. R. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Vickers, Douglas Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Waddington, R. Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Motley, Oswald Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Gilbert, James Daniel Murchison, C. K. Waring, Major Walter Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Murray, Lieut.-Colonel A. (Aberdeen) Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Glyn, Major Ralph Murray, John (Leeds, West) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Goff, Sir R. Park Neal, Arthur Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. Grant, James A. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Green, Albert (Derby) Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Gregory, Holman Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Gritten, W. G. Howard Pennefather, De Fonblanque Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Perkins, Walter Frank Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Perring, William George Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Hailwood, Augustine Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by) Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Yeo, Sir Alfred William Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Hanna, George Boyle Prescott, Major W. H. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Pulley, Charles Thornton Younger, Sir George Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Purchase, H. G. Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Rae, H. Norman TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Raeburn, Sir William H. Lt.-Colonel Sir R. Sanders and Mr. Parker. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N.
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Kenyon, Barnet Sitch, Charles H. Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Kiley, James D. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Bromfield, William Lunn, William Spencer, George A. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Entwistle, Major C. F. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Glanville, Harold James Raffan, peter Wilson Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Grundy, T. W. Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Waterson, A. E. Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Robertson, John White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Hirst, G. H. Rose, Frank H. Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Johnstone, Joseph Royce, William Stapleton Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Mr. Hogge and Mr. Holmes.
War Bonus
"20. That a sum, not exceeding £9,500,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for such of the Charges for War Bonus, etc., as have not been otherwise provided."
Question put, and agreed to.
Navy Estimates, 1920–21
"That a sum, not exceeding £30,675,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Expenditure in respect of the Navy Services, namely:—
£ 7. Royal Naval Reserves 479,800 8. Sec. 1. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc. Personnel 10,184,000
Question put:
The Committee divided: Ayes, 219; Noes, 19.
Division No. 293.] AYES. [12.35 a.m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Farquharson, Major A. C. M'Micking, Major Gilbert Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Forrest, Walter McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Mallalieu, F. W. Atkey, A. R. Fraser, Major Sir Keith Molson, Major John Elsdale Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Baird, Sir John Lawrence Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Geddes, Rt. Hon. sir E. (Camb'dge) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Balfour, George (Hampstead) Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Mosley, Oswald Barker, Major Robert H. Gilbert, James Daniel Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Barlow, Sir Montague Gilmour, Lieut-Colonel John Murchison, C. K. Barnett, Major R. W. Glyn, Major Ralph Murray, John (Leeds, West) Barnston, Major Harry Goff, Sir R. Park Neal, Arthur Barrand, A. R. Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Barrie, Charles Coupar Green, Albert (Derby) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Palmer, Major Godfrey Mark Bennett, Thomas Jewell Gregory, Holman Parker, James Betterton, Henry B. Gritten, W. G. Howard Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Birchall, Major J. Dearman Grundy, T. W. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Pennefather, De Fonblanque Blair, Reginald Hailwood, Augustine Perkins, Walter Frank Borwick, Major G. O. Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Pinkham, Lieut.-Colonel Charles Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Hall, Rr-Adml Sir W. (Liv'p'l, W.D'by) Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Hanna, George Boyle Prescott, Major W. H. Brassey, Major H. L. C. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Breese, Major Charles E. Henderson, Major V. L. (Tradeston) Pulley, Charles Thornton Bridgeman, William Clive Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Purchase, H. G. Broad, Thomas Tucker Henry, Denis. S. (Londonderry, S.) Rae, H. Norman Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Raeburn, Sir William H. Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hirst, G. H. Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Campbell, J. D. G. Hoare, Lieut-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hood, Joseph Remnant, Sir James Carr, W. Theodore Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Renwick, George Casey, T. W. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Cautley, Henry S. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Rodger, A. K. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Rogers, Sir Hallewell Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Clough, Robert James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Royden, Sir Thomas Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Jameson, J. Gordon Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Jodrell, Neville Paul Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Johnstone, Joseph Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Courthope, Major George L. Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Seddon, J. A. Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Sexton, James Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Jones, William Kennedy (Hornsey) Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Curzon, Commander Viscount Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirk'dy) King, Captain Henry Douglas Simm, M. T. Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H. Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Sitch, Charles H. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Stanton, Charles B. Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Dawes, James Arthur Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Stewart, Gershom Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Strauss, Edward Anthony Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Sturrock, J. Leng Doyle, N. Grattan Lorden, John William Sugden, W. H. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Lort-Williams, J. Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Edge, Captain William Loseby, Captain C. E. Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Lowe, Sir Francis William Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Elveden, Viscount M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Macmaster, Donald Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill)
£ 8. Sec. 2, Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc. Matériel 8,499,000 8. Sec. 3. Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc. Contract Work 9,958,700 12. Admiralty Office 1,554,000 £30,675,500"
Tryon, Major George Clement Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Turton, E. R. Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Vickers, Douglas Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Waddington, R. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Wallace, J. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Younger, Sir George Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Waring, Major Walter Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Lieut.-Colonel Stanley and Mr. Dudley Ward.
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Entwistle, Major C. F. Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Glanville, Harold James Rose, Frank H. Waterson, A. E. Holmes, J. Stanley Royce, William Stapleton White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Kiley, James D. Spencer, George A. Lunn, William Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Mr. Davison and Mr. Hogge.
Army Estimates, 1920–21
"That a sum, not exceeding £40,000,100, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charges for Army Services, including Army (Ordnance Factories), which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st
day of March, 1921, in respect of an estimated net total cost of £492,473,000, and of liabilities outstanding on the first day of the year."
Question put.
The Committee divided: Ayes, 201; Noes, 30.
Division No. 294.] AYES. [12.46 a.m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Dennis, J. W. (Birmingham, Deritend) Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Doyle, N. Grattan King, Captain Henry Douglas Atkey, A. R. Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Bagley, Captain E. Ashton Edge, Captain William Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Baird, Sir John Lawrence Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Balfour, George (Hampstead) Elveden, Viscount Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Barlow, Sir Montague Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Barnett, Major R. W. Farquharson, Major A. C. Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Barnston, Major Harry Forrest, Walter Lorden, John William Barrand, A. R. Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Lort-Williams, J. Barrie, Charles Coupar (Banff) Fraser, Major Sir Keith Loseby, Captain C. E. Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Lowe, Sir Francis William Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Lowther, Lt.-Col. Claude (Lancaster) Bennett, Thomas Jewell Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Betterton, Henry B. Gibbs, Colonel George Abraham Mackinder, Sir H. J. (Camlachie) Bigland, Alfred Gilbert, James Daniel Macmaster, Donald Birchall, Major J. Dearman Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Glyn, Major Ralph Mallalieu, F. w. Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Goff, Sir R. Park Molson, Major John Elsdale Blair, Reginald Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Borwick, Major G. O. Green, Albert (Derby) Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Mosley, Oswald Brassey, Major H. L. C. Gregory, Holman Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Breese, Major Charles E. Gritten, W. G. Howard Murchison, C. K. Bridgeman, William Clive Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Murray, John (Leeds, West) Broad, Thomas Tucker Gwynne, Rupert S. Neal, Arthur Burn, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Hailwood, Augustine O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Carr, W. Theodore Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Casey, T. W. Hanna, George Boyle Parker, James Cautley, Henry S. Harmsworth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hoare, Lieut.-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Perkins, Walter Frank Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Hood, Joseph Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Clough, Robert Hope, Sir H. (Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn.W.) Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Prescott, Major W. H. Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Pulley, Charles Thornton Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Purchase, H. G. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Rae, H. Norman Curzon, Commander Viscount James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Raeburn, Sir William H. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Jameson, J. Gordon Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Jodrell, Neville Paul Rees, Sir J. D. (Nottingham, East) Davison, Sir, W. H. (Kensington, S.) Johnstone, Joseph Remnant, Sir James Dawes, James Arthur Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Renwick, George Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Stewart, Gershom Willey, Lieut. Colonel F. V. Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Strauss, Edward Anthony Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Sturrock, J. Leng Williams, Col. Sir R. (Dorset, W.) Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Sugden, W. H. Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Rodger, A. K. Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Rogers, Sir Hallewell Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Rounded, Colonel R. F. Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Royden, Sir Thomas Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Seddon, J. A. Tryon, Major George Clement Yeo, Sir Alfred William Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Turton, E. R. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) Simm, M. T. Vickers, Douglas Younger, Sir George Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Waring, Major Walter TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Stanton, Charles B. Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. Mr. Dudley Ward and Commander Eyres-Monsell.
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Lunn, William Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith) Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Midlothian) Thomson, T. (Middlesbrough, West) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.) Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) Waterson, A. E. Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Rose, Frank H. White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Entwistle, Major C. F. Royce, William Stapleton Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Glanville, Harold James Sexton, James Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Grundy, T. W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) Sitch, Charles H. Hirst, G. H. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Spencer, George A. Mr. Hogge and Mr. Holmes.
Air Force Estimates, 1920–1921
"That a sum, not exceeding £4,571,080, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Expenditure in respect of the Air Force Services, namely:—
£ 5. Air Ministry 877,000 6. Miscellaneous Effective Services 110,000
Division No. 295.] AYES. [12.50 a.m. Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. C. Casey, T. W. Geddes, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Camb'dge) Agg-Gardner, Sir James Tynte Cautley, Henry S. Gilbert, James Daniel Amery, Lieut.-Col. Leopold C. M. S. Cayzer, Major Herbert Robin Gilmour, Lieut.-Colonel John Atkey, A. R. Cecil, Rt. Hon. Evelyn (Birm., Aston) Glyn, Major Ralph Baird, Sir John Lawrence Chamberlain, N. (Birm., Ladywood) Goff, Sir R. Park Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Clay, Lieut.-Colonel H. H. Spender Grayson, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Henry Balfour, George (Hampstead) Clough, Robert Green, Albert (Derby) Barker, Major Robert H. Coates, Major Sir Edward F. Green, Joseph F. (Leicester, W.) Barlow, Sir Montague Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K. Greene, Lt.-Col. Sir W. (Hack'y, N.) Barnett, Major R. W. Coote, Colin Reith (Isle of Ely) Gritten, W. G. Howard Barnston, Major Harry Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities) Guinness, Lieut.-Col. Hon. W. E. Barrand, A. R. Craig, Colonel Sir J. (Down, Mid) Hacking, Captain Douglas H. Barrie, Charles Coupar Curzon, Commander Viscount Hailwood, Augustine Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W. Davies, Alfred Thomas (Lincoln) Hamilton, Major C. G. C. Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake) Davies, Thomas (Cirencester) Hanna, George Boyle Bennett, Thomas Jewell Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Harms worth, C. B. (Bedford, Luton) Betterton, Henry B. Dawes, James Arthur Hennessy, Major J. R. G. Bigland, Alfred Dewhurst, Lieut.-Commander Harry Henry, Denis S. (Londonderry, S.) Birchall, Major J. Dearman Doyle, N. Grattan Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford) Bird, Sir A. (Wolverhampton, West) Du Pre, Colonel William Baring Hoare, Lieut-Colonel Sir S. J. G. Blades, Capt. Sir George Rowland Edge, Captain William Hood, Joseph Blair, Reginald Elliot, Capt. Walter E. (Lanark) Hope, Sir H.(Stirling & Cl'ckm'nn, W.) Borwick, Major G. O. Elliott, Lt.-Col. Sir G. (Islington, W.) Hope, James F. (Sheffield, Central) Boscawen, Rt. Hon. Sir A. Griffith- Elveden, Viscount Hope, Lt.-Col. Sir J. A. (Midlothian) Boyd-Carpenter, Major A. Eyres-Monsell, Commander B. M. Home, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Brassey, Major H. L. C. Falle, Major Sir Bertram G. Horne, Sir R. S. (Glasgow, Hillhead) Breese, Major Charles E. Farquharson, Major A. c. Hotchkin, Captain Stafford Vere Bridgeman, William Clive Forrest, Walter Illingworth, Rt. Hon. A. H. Broad, Thomas Tucker Foxcroft, Captain Charles Talbot Inskip, Thomas Walker H. Sum, Col. C. R. (Devon, Torquay) Fraser, Major Sir Keith James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Campion, Lieut.-Colonel W. R. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Jameson, J. Gordon Carr, W. Theodora Ganzoni, Captain Francis John C. Jodrell, Neville Paul Johnstone, Joseph Peel, Col. Hn. S. (Uxbridge, Mddx.) Sugden, W. H. Jones, Sir Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Pennefather, De Fonblanque Surtees, Brigadier-General H. C. Jones, G. W. H. (Stoke Newington) Perkins, Walter Frank Sykes, Sir Charles (Huddersfield) Kelley, Major Fred (Rotherham) Pollock, Sir Ernest M. Talbot, Rt. Hon. Lord E. (Chich'st'r) King, Captain Henry Douglas Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton Talbot, G. A. (Hemel Hempstead) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Prescott, Major W. H. Thomas, Sir Robert J. (Wrexham) Law, Alfred J. (Rochdale) Pretyman, Rt. Hon. Ernest G. Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, South) Law, Rt. Hon. A. B. (Glasgow, C.) Pulley, Charles Thornton Thomson, Sir W. Mitchell-(Maryhill) Lewis, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Univ., Wales) Purchase, H. G. Tryon, Major George Clement Lewis, T. A. (Glam., Pontypridd) Rae, H. Norman Turton, E. R. Lloyd-Greame, Major Sir P. Raeburn, Sir William H. Vickers, Douglas Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'tingd'n) Raw, Lieutenant-Colonel N. Wallace, J. Lorden, John William Remnant, Sir James Ward, Col. L. (Kingston-upon-Hull) Lort-Williams, J. Richardson, Alexander (Gravesend) Ward, William Dudley (Southampton) Loseby, Captain C. E. Roberts, Rt. Hon. G. H. (Norwich) Waring, Major Walter Lowe, Sir Francis William Roberts, Sir S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Wheler, Lieut.-Colonel C. H. M'Curdy, Rt. Hon. C. A. Robinson, S. (Brecon and Radnor) Wild, Sir Ernest Edward Macmaster, Donald Robinson, Sir T. (Lancs., Stretford) Willey, Lieut.-Colonel F. V. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, Canterbury) Rodger, A. K. Williams, Lt.-Com. C. (Tavistock) Mallalieu, F. W. Roundell, Colonel R. F. Williams, Lt.-Col. Sir R. (Banbury) Molson, Major John Elsdale Royden, Sir Thomas Williamson, Rt. Hon. Sir Archibald Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Sanders, Colonel Sir Robert A. Wills, Lieut.-Colonel Sir Gilbert Moreing, Captain Algernon H. Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D. Wilson, Daniel M. (Down, West) Morison, Rt. Hon. Thomas Brash Scott, A. M. (Glasgow, Bridgeton) Wilson, Colonel Leslie O. (Reading) Mosley, Oswald Seddon, J. A. Wood, Hon. Edward F. L. (Ripon) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Shaw, William T. (Forfar) Wood, Major S. Hill-(High Peak) Murchison, C. K. Simm, M. T. Worsfold, Dr. T. Cato Murray, John (Leeds, West) Sprot, Colonel Sir Alexander Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L. Neal, Arthur Stanley, Major Hon. G. (Preston) Yeo, Sir Alfred William Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Stanton, Charles B. Young, Lieut.-Com. E. H. (Norwich) O'Neill, Major Hon. Robert W. H. Stephenson, Lieut.-Colonel H. K. Younger, Sir George Palmer, Charles Frederick (Wrekin) Stewart, Gershom Parry, Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Henry Strauss, Edward Anthony TELLERS FOR THE AYES. —— Pease, Rt. Hon. Herbert Pike Sturrock, J. Leng Colonel Gibbs and Mr. Parker.
NOES. Bell, James (Lancaster, Ormskirk) Lunn, William Thomas, Brig.-Gen. Sir O. (Anglesey) Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Waterson, A. E. Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Roberts, Frederick O. (W. Bromwich) White, Charles F. (Derby, Western) Davison, J. E. (Smethwick) Rose, Frank H. Wilson, W. Tyson (Westhoughton) Entwistle, Major C. F. Royce, William Stapleton Wood, Major M. M. (Aberdeen, C.) Grundy, T. W. Sexton, James Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) Hirst, G. H. Sitch, Charles H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES. —— Kenworthy, Lieut.-Commander J. M. Smith, W. R. (Wellingborough) Mr. Hogge and Mr. Holmes. Kiley, James D. Spencer, George A.
£ 7. Half-Pay Pensions, and other Non-Effective Services 114,000 8. Civil Aviation 894,540 9. Experimental and Research Services 2,575,540 £4,571,080"
Revenue Departments Estimates, 1920–21
"That a sum, not exceeding £37,134,073, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, for Expenditure in respect of the Services included in the Estimates for Revenue Departments, namely:—
£ 1. Customs and Excise 2,384,371 2. Inland Revenue 3,434,080 3. Post Office 31,315,622 £37,134,073."
Question put, and agreed to.
Civil Services (Excess), 1918–19
"That a sum, not exceeding £57,697 6s. 7d., be granted to His Majesty, to make good an Excess on the Grant for the Secret Service for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1919."
Question put, and agreed to.
Navy (Excesses), 1918–19
"That a sum, not exceeding £10, be granted to His Majesty, to make good Excesses of Navy Expenditure beyond the Grants, for the year ended on the 31st day of March, 1919."
Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported to-morrow (Wednesday).
Ways and Means
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
1. Resolved, "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1919, the sum of £57,707 6s. 7d. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]
2. Resolved, "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1921, the sum of £445,870,339 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]
Resolutions to be reported to-morrow (Wednesday).
Navy, Army and Air Expenditure, 1918–19
Considered in Committee.
[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
"I. Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1919, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, namely:—
( a ) That the aggregate expenditure on Navy Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services by a sum of £339,025,977 17s. 4d.;
( b ) That the aggregate receipts in aid of Navy Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated in aid of those Services by a sum of £4,951,760 15s. 9d.;
( c ) That the total differences between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, namely:—
£ s. d. Surpluses Nil Deficits 334,074,217 1 7
SCHEDULE. Number Vote. Navy Services, 1918–19. Votes. Actual Receipts compared with Estimated Appropriations-in-Aid. Surpluses. Deficits. £ s. d. £ s. d. 1 Wages, &c., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guard, add Royal Marines. — 16,829,138 1 4 2 to 15 Other Navy Votes 21,780,898 17 1 — 21,780,898 17 1 16,829,138 1 4 Surplus £4 951,760 15 9 Deduct Surplus Appropriations-in-Aid not Appropriated by Parliament. 10 0 0 £4,951,750 15 9
"II. Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1919, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, namely:—
( a ) That the aggregate expenditure on Army Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services by a sum of £814,017,252 6s. 4d.;
( b ) That the aggregate receipts in aid of Army Services fell short of the aggregate sums appropriated in aid of those Services by a sum of £10,727,037 17s. 9d.;
( c ) That the total differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services
Deficit (charged against the Vote of Credit) £334,074,217 1 7
1.0 A.M.
And whereas by a Vote of Parliament during the present Session (House of Commons Paper, No 111, of 1920), a further sum of £10 has been granted for the expenditure of the year 1918–19, and the appropriation of additional receipts in aid of such expenditure has been sanctioned to the amount of £4,951,750 15s. 9d.
And whereas, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, so far as necessary, of the excesses of the sums realised on account of Appropriations-in-Aid of Navy Votes 2 to 15 over the sums which may be applied under the Apropriation Acts, 1918 and 1919, as Appropriations-in-Aid of those Votes, towards making good the deficiency of £16,829,138 1s. 4d. in the sums realised on account of Appropriations-in-Aid of Vote 1."
1. Resolved, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]
and the net expenditure are as follows, namely:—
£ s. d. Surpluses Nil Deficits 824,744,290 4 1 Deficit (charged against the Vote of Credit) £824,744,290 4 1
And whereas, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of the excesses of the sums realised on account of Appropria- tions-in-Aid of Army Votes 2 and 4 to 14 over the sums which may he applied under the Appropriation Acts, 1918 and 1919, as Appropriations-in-Aid of those Votes, amounting in all to £83,195,273 18s. 7d. to make good part of the deficiency of
SCHEDULE. Number of Vote. Army Services, 1918–19. Votes. Actual Receipts compared with Estimated Appropriations-in-Aid. Surpluses. Deficits. £ s. d. £ s. d. 1 Pay, etc., of the Army — 93,922,164 17 7 3 Special Reserve — 99 18 9 15 Civil Superannuation, Compensation, and Gratuities. — 47 0 0 2 and 4 to 14 Other Army Votes 83,195,273 18 7 — 83,195,273 18 7 93,922,311 16 4 Deficiency £10,727,037 17 9
"III. Whereas it appears by the Air Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1919, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, namely:
( a ) That the aggregate expenditure on Air Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated for those Services by a sum of £85,437,384 9s. 2d., which is chargeable to the Vote of Credit;
( b ) That the aggregate receipts in aid of Air Services exceeded the aggregate sums appropriated in aid of those Services by a sum of £1,030,938 15s. 2d., to be surrendered to the Exchequer.
SCHEDULE. Number of Vote. Air Services, 1918–19. Votes. Actual Receipts compared with Estimated Appropriations-in-Aid. Surpluses. Deficits. £ s. d. £ s. d. 5 Air Ministry — 94 15 2 7 Half-Pay, Pensions, and other Non-Effective Services. — 100 0 0 1 to 4 and 6 Other Air Force Votes 1,031,133 10 4 — 1,031,133 10 4 194 15 2 Surplus £1,030,938 15 2
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow (Wednesday).
Appropriations-in-Aid of Votes 1, 3, and 15."
2. Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]
And whereas, as shown in the Schedule hereunto appended, the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, so far as necessary, of the excesses of the sums realised on account of Appropriations-in-Aid of Air Force Votes 1 to 4 and 6 over the sums which may be applied under The Appropriation Act, 1918, as Appropriations-in-Aid of those Votes, to make good the deficiency of Appropriations-in-Aid of Votes 5 and 7."
3. Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.—[ Mr. Baldwin. ]
Post Office and Telegraph [Railway Remuneration]
Resolution reported,
"That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the Law with respect to the statutory limits on postal and telegraph rates, and with respect to the remuneration to be paid to railway companies for the conveyance of postal parcels, and otherwise to amend the Post Office Acts, 1908 and 1915, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the amount of the railway remuneration payable in respect of the year commencing on the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty-one, and any subsequent year."
Resolution agreed to.
Blind Persons Bill
As amended ( in the Standing Committee ), considered.
CLAUSE 2.—(Power of local authorities to promote welfare of blind persons.)
(6)
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (6), to insert a new Subsection—
"(7) For the purposes of this Section a blind person who becomes an inmate of an institution for the blind after the commencement of this Act shall be deemed to continue to be ordinarily resident in the area in which he was ordinarily resident before he became an inmate of such institution."
The object of this Amendment is to carry out the pledge given to the Committee that blind persons who become inmates of an institution shall be chargeable to the authority in whose area they are ordinarily resident.
Amendment agreed to.
CLAUSE 3.—(Charities for the Blind.)
3.—(1) The War Charities Act, 1916, shall apply to charities for the blind as if it were herein re-enacted and in terms made applicable to such charities, subject, however, to the following modifications:—
( a ) The registration authority shall, as respects the City of London, be the common council of the City of London, and elsewhere the county council or county borough council;
( b ) Notwithstanding anything in Section four of the Act, the fee payable on registration of a charity shall not exceed two guineas;
(2) Regulations may be made by the Minister of Health for providing that in the case of any charities for the blind which have, before the passing of this Act, been registered under the War Charities Act, 1916, the registration under that Act shall have effect as registration by the appropriate registration authority under this Act and for making such consequential provisions as may be necessary for that purposed.
I beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (1, a ), to insert a new paragraph—
"( b ) Notwithstanding anything in Subsection (3) of Section two of the Act the registration authority may refuse to register a charity if they are satisfied that its objects are adequately attained by a charity registered under the Act."
I understand that this Amendment is accepted by the Government. Its object is to prevent the overlapping of charities. The War Charities Act, 1916, provides that only in the case where charities are not bonâ fide registration shall be refused. The object of this Amendment is to enable local authorities, if they consider that provision is already made for blind people, to refuse to register them.
Amendment agreed to.
Further Amendments made: In Subsection (1, b ), after the word "charity" ["registration of a charity shall not exceed"], insert the words "may exceed ten shillings but";
In Sub-section (2), after the word "the" ["made by the Minister of Health"], insert the words "Charity Commissioners subject to the approval of the."—[ Dr. Addison. ]
Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.
Bill read the Third time, and passed.
The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.
Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 2nd August, adjourned the House without Question put.
Adjourned at Ten Minutes after One o'Clock.